The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-14 00:00:00

BIRMINIIAM. JULY 13.

STOCK ESCII?NGE.---The market to-day was rather dull,
and the business limited to few of which the following
are quotations:—North Statiordibire, 48s. 9d. dis.—Shrews-
bury and Birmingham (A), s—Ditto (B), 3t. 3s. 9J.—
Stour, 314.

IMPERIAL PA RLIAMEN T

HOUSE OF LORDS, July 13.

Their Lordships met at Five oiel,,el

INDEPENDENCE OF PARLIAMENT BILL.

Lord BROUGHAM moved the second rt.a,ding of the
Independence of Parliament Bid. The object of this
measure was to exclude insolvent debtors from Parlia-
ment, in the same manner as bankrupts were ex-
cluded. As the law now stood, law-makers were
law-breakers, and brought scandal on the House to
which they belonged. He would, however, if he could
get an assurance from the Government that they would
take up the question next session, withdraw his motion.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to
approve of the principle of the Bill, but to recommend its
postponement.
Lord BROUGHAM considered it bett.:l- the measure
should originate in the House of Commons, and would
not therefore press his motion.
The Bill was then withdrawn.

CRIMINAL LAW ADMINISTRATION BILL.
Lord CAMPBELL moved that the House do resolve
itself into Committee on the Criminal Law Administra-
tion Bill. The Bill had been referred to a Select Com-
mittee, and the question had been mooted as to whether
it would be advisable, in all criminal cases, to give the
party convicted a right to demand a new trial, and the
judges had unanimously decided that it would not be
advisable.

Lord DENMAN likewise bore testimony to the
unanimous opinion of am judges on the subject. He
also objected to giving a right of appeal from the judg-
ments of courts of quarter-sessions on points of
law, as was proposed by this Bill. It
would be attended with great inconvenience,
and would amount to a practical defeat of the adminis-
tration of justice. The judges were generally of opi-
nion that no practical good could arise from this appeal
to the judges on circuit, but that, on the other hand, it
would be attended with great disadvantage.
Lord BROUGHAM said it was a great mistake to
suppose that the same course could be pursued with
reference to appeals from courts of criminal judicature
as from civil courts. They must double the number of
judges, and make them sit in July as well as in Novem-
ber, if such a proposition were carried into effect; and
anything more wild, altogether, could not possibly have
been proposed. He thought nothing was more unsatis-
factory than the manner in which points were now re-
served by judges and finally adjudicated upon. Ho con-
sidered that their judgments should be given in open
court; but still he could not approve of the present
measure as an effectual remedy for the existing evils
in the administration of the criminal law.

Lord CAMPBELL said that many difficult and im-
portant questions came before the courts of quarter-ses-
sions, and it was quite ns important that appeals should
be allowed in such cases as in those tried before the su-
perior courts. It had generally been considered one of
the defects of the courts of quarter-sessions that there
was no appeal. A judge could consult his learned
brethren upon a difficult point, but a chairman of quarter-
sessions had not that advantage. He did riot think there
was any danger of the privilege of appeal from quarter-
sessions being abused.
The amendment was then agreed to, and the two
clauses accordingly struck out.
Their Lordships resumed, and the Bill as amended
was reported.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 13.
EMIGRATION CLUBS.
Mr. HINDLEY gave notice that on en early day he
should move for leave to introduce a Bill to facilitate
and legalise the establishment of emigration clubs.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
In answer to a question from Mr. NEWDEGATE,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he meant to go on with
the Incumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill, and if not finished
that evening, would proceed with it to-morrow (this
day). After that, it was his intention to take the Lords'
amendments to the Evicted Teoants (Ireland) Bill.
PRIVILEGES.
Mr. OSBORNE complained that on a former evening
the Hon. Baronet the Member for Marylcboue had ac-
cused the llon. Member for Mayo of having wilfully
abandoned his intention of bringing the Irish Church
temporalities under the notice of the House. Now the
fact was that the Hon. Member for Mayo was seriously
indisposed, and had been so for three weeks.
INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the day for the Committee on the above
Bill was read. •
Sir GEORGE GREY expressed his hope that pre-
liminary discussion would be avoided, so as that the
clauses and their amendment might be disposed of.
Mr. HENLEY doubted very much whether the Bill
would effect the object in view. The object was to keep
clear of the Court of Chancery; and he feared that the
Bill would throw the estates more helplessly into that
court than ever.
The House went into Committee.
On clause I—the interpretation clause—
Colonel DUNNE proposed an amendment to pre-
vent the sale of the fee simple to pay off incumbrances
on the life interest, which, after some discussion, was
negatived ; the Honourable and Gallant Member inti-
mating that he would raise the question and take a divi-
sion upon it at a more fitting opportunity, which the
Solicitor •General said would present itself on the 30th
clause.
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 2,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved to omit the
words which limited the sale of the property under a
decree of the Court of Chancery, unless it sold for a
sum which should be sufficient to pay off all incumbrances
on the estate. No such limit existed as to sales by
private arrangement.
The amendment was agreed to.
Mr. APCULLAGII proceeded to state the object of
the amendment of which he had given notice. The
Bill, as at present framed,limited the right of petitioning
for a sale to the owner of the estate, to the first incum-
brancer, and the mortgagee who might hold the title-
deeds in his possession. He was desirous of removing
such limitation, and permitting any ineutnbrancer to
institute proceedings in a court of equity for a sa'e. The
parties on whom the clause exclusively conferred the
power were precisely those who in general were least
disposed to sell.—(Hear, hear.) The owner of an estate
heavily incumbered has ceased too frequently to retain
any direct interest in its possession, excepting that
which he valued very naturally, and not undeservedly,
the consideration and position which had come to him by
inheritance, and which, with the inheritance, he is con-
scious that he must lose.—(Hear, hear.) To expect such
a man to initiate proceedings in equity fur a sale would
be idle. Were the highest price realised and all his cre-
ditors paid off, the balance in moneys numbered that
would remain could not enable him to maintain what is
familiarly termed his position in the county ; and if he
happened to be but tenant for life, the interest annually
payable to him out of court upon this residuum would be
wholly inadequate to maintain him in that social sphere
in which he had hitherto moved.—(Hear, hear.) If you
waited until the insolvent, or nearly insolvent, owner pe-
titioned for a sale, you might wait for ever. Then as to
the first incumbrancer, he believed it would be found that
the first incumbrancer was, generally speaking,
a person holding a charge under family set-
tlement, or an old judgment on a bond. In Ire-
land these early charges and old judgments were looked
upon as about the best investment that could be had.
They were transferable, and always brought their full
price whenever they were sold. They were valued like
old pictures, which the possessor was always the less
disposed to part with, because ho knew that they would
always bring him his own money. If, therefore, lands
were never brought to sale until persons so circum-
stanced filed petitions in equity to raise the amount of
these charges, sales to any considerable extent there
would never be.—(Cheers.) As for the principal mort-
gagees, who had the title-deeds in their possession,
those parties had
.usually taken very good care either
to buy up prior incumbrances before they lent any
considerable sum to the owner, or to leave a sufficient
margin of rent to secure the payment of their interest.
Sometimes these parties were wealthy individuals
who had lent their money in this way as a per-
manent, safe, and profitable investment. Sometimes
they were joint- stock companies or money-lenders; but,
almost invariably, they felt themselves to be in exactly
the position where there was seldom any object or mo-
' tive to institute proceedings for a sale.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") The estate might deteriorate, as most
heavily incumbered properties aro apt to do; but they
were distant from the scene; indifferent to the slow
decay; safe, by their possession of the title-deeds, from
the practical consequences of the evil. To wait till such
parties filed petitions of sale would be to wait for ever.
In the course of the discussions that had taken place
upon this Bill, on a previous day, he regretted to ob-
serve a tone of argument indicative in some sort of a
feeling that after all this was a mere wrangle between
landlords and lawyers. But there was another and a
far wider interest concerned which he trusted
the House would protect and guard—he meant
that of the tenantry on incumbered estates in Ireland.
Their position was most lamentable. Improvement was
unknown, and escape from evil impossible. Year after
year the condition of the embarrassed property grew
worse, until, in the sad progress of deterioration, the
time came when, every other duty of proprietorship
having ceased to be discharged, the. collection of the
rents devolved upon a receiver; and what misery and
demoralisation was comprehended in that fatal phrase
it would hardly be necessary to explain. Now what
was the condition of the puisne incumbrancer? He
watched the gradual deterioration of the estate on which

he had lent his money with a very different eye. The
eventual danger of a deficient fund was ever present to
his mind. It he were enabled to do so, he would in-
stitufe proceedings for a sale before it was too
By doing so he would do a real service
to the improvident owner, and an inestimable bene-
fit to the tenantry of the portion which might
be sold. The amendment a hid' he had the honour
to move would clothe the minor incumbrancer with this
power ; and it would, he believed, go tar towards the
gradual encouragement of what was so desirable, but
what, at present, did not practically exist in Ireland—a
market for land. People talked of bringing land into
the market. Into what market ? If they meant by a
market the competition of small capitals for moderate
portions of land, he could understand it ; but if they
meant a forcing of large estates unbroken and in great
numbers suddenly to sale, then he would tell them that
the only practical effect would be to depreciate must
ruinously the present value of land, and to hand over a
vast portion of the soil of Ireland to a class of mere land
jobbers.—(Cheers.) Ile was sure that such was in no
respect the purpose or aim which the framers of the Bill
had in view. But he very much feared that such would to
some extent be its unintentional tendency, ifsome means
were not found of permitting portions of estates rather
than entire estates to be sold in liquidation of minor in-
cumbrances. He had heard with the pest interest
the speech delivered on a termer day by tle Right lion.
Baronet (Sir J. Graham) ; and by nothing was he more
struck than by the caution with which he guarded his
strenuous support of the principle of the Bid from any
approval of recklessly throwing more laud upon the
market than the capital of Ireland could appropriate,
and thus incurring the incalculable evil of general de-
preciation. The amendment would restore the second
clause to the condition in which it stood when the Bill
was originally introduced into the other House last
year ;
jesty's Government would not refuse to adopt it.
Sir J. GRAHAM, being most anxious to forward the
Bill before the House, was not desirous of instituting
any discussion which would consume time ; but he felt
bound to state his concurrence in the views of the Hon.
Gentleman who had lust addressed them respecting the
sale of estates in large masses. By the Stamp Act as it
existed there was a saving effected by selling large por-
tions, while the small sales were obstructed by its ope-
ration. He thought that the object of the Act would
be considerably promoted if an alteration were effected
in this state of things.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was sorry that he
could not accede to the amendment, and he thought the
House would see that the retention of the words pro-
posed to be omitted, instead of interfering with the ope-
ration of the Bill, would be beneficial.

The amendment was then negatived, and the clause,
with some verbal amendments, was adopted.
Clauses 3,4, 5, and 6 were adopted without discussion.
On the motion that clause 7 stand part of the Bill,
Mr. NAPIER said that he was strongly of opinion
that powers of a more extensive nature sh,luld be given
to the Lord Chancellor to frame proper orders and rules
respecting the petitions to be presented to the Court
under the Act.

The SOLICITOR•GENERAt thought it right to
leave technical details as much as possible to the Lord
Chancellor; but he was at the same time opposed to de-
legating to others the powers of right belonging to that
House. It was provided by the fifth section of the Act
that every petition brought before the Court should set
forth the estate of the petitioner, his interest in the
land or lease, and the uses and limitations or trusts to
which the land stood limited; also all incumbrances by
which it was affected. Now he was sure the House
would seo that it was necessary to make this compulsory
by a section of the Act, in order to economise the time
of the Court by making it impossible for persons to
come before it with fictitious cases.

Mr. B. OSBORNE believed that unless the Bill were
carried out by Commissioners appointed for the purpose
it would be a failure, on account of the complexity of
its provisions.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that such an ar-
rangement would be attended with great expense, and
the strongest desire of the framers of this Bill had been
to avoid throwing additional expenses on these incum-
bored estates.

After a protracted conversation, in which Mr. B.
Palmer, Colonel Dunne, Mr. Napier, the Solicitor-Ge-
neral, and Mr. Monsell took part, the Committee di-
vided, when there appeared—
For the clause 64
Against it
Majority for the clause —s6
The clause, after some verbal amendments, was then
ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 8 to 28 inclusive were then agreed to.
On clause 29,

Mr. OSBORNE called attention to the charge of
" usher's poundage," which he said was given by the
late Lord Clare to his son, when in the cradle, and pro-
duced to him 150,0001. before he came of age. He
wished to know how the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
proposed to deal with that charge of 2i per cent?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL stated there was a
proviso exempting from that charge all sums paid to
the credit of the Accountant-General of the Court of
Chancery under this BilL
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 30,

Colonel DUNNE said it was the first of a very im-
portant series of clauses, which he thought ought not to
be discussed in so thin a House. He would, therefore,
move that the Chairman do report progress.
Sir G. GREY thought a mull house was the most
proper for such a discussion.

Dir. NAPIER suggested that the discussion might
take place on the bringing up of the report, when he in"
tended to move the omission of this and the following
thirteen clauses.

Mr. GROGAN recommended that these clauses, re•
lilting to sales lay the Court of Chancery should be post-
poned.—(•" No, no.")

- Mr. OSBORNE said the postponement of these clause'
would be in effect to give up the Bill.
After a conversation,
Colonel DUNNE withdrew his motion.
Clauses 30 to 33 were then agreed to.
On clause 34,

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he was most
anxious to secure a b9nii fide sale when one took place,
and at the same time to avoid unnecessary expense. To
secure due notice of the sale being given he would pro-
pose an amendment, entitling every person who had en-
tered a caveat to personal notice at his abode, therebf
enabling him to take steps to restrain the sale if be
thought proper, and giving him the right to know the
price at which it was proposed to sell.

- Sir J. GRAHAM thought this clause one which re'
quired the utmost attention. It was most desirable that,
in cases of sale, the full value should be obtained, and
all collusion prevented. For this purpose it had been
suggested that a public sale by auction would be the
best.—(Hear, hear.) The suggestion that the sale
should be in the master's office, with a right to the office
to open the bidding, he did not approve; but to sale by
auction there appeared no objection.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL doubted whether
public auction would be a security against fraud. Be
thought frauds might be perpetrated under a sale by
auction as well as under one by private contract, To
place the power of sale on the best footing, the parties
ought to have the option of selling either by auction or
by private contract, as was done in all cases in this
country where trustees had the power of sale. To bind
up the parties either to one mode or the other was in;
jurious. By making it the interest of the vendors to sell
for the largest possible amount the best security against
fraud was supplied. Besides, the cases in which traUd
could arise were comparatively few ; for the instances
would be very rare where it was the interest of the party
selling to do so at a reduced price. As additional secu•
rity he proposed to introduce a clause making all the
parties to the sale liable in the case of fraud; and
thus the buyer in such a case would acquire no title, and
both he and the seller, as well as the solicitor, would be
liable for the amount by which the full value exceeded
the sale prices. Probably a desirable course would be,
after all the incumbraneers had received notice of the
sale, that the estate should be offered by auction, with
liberty to the seller, if no sale were effected, to offer it
by private contract. But even this might be produc-
tive of inconvenience; and upoa the whole he thought
it would be best to leave the manner of the sale entirely
open. _ _

Sir J. GRAHAM was not quite satisfied that it would
always be to the interest of the vendor to obtain the best
possible price.—(Hear, hear.) Where a mortgagee
effected a sale he might have very little regard for the,
interest of the heir in remainder. The uniform view of
the law was, that a public auction was the best means of
securing a fair sale. He would not now press his sug
gestion, but hoped it would receive the consideration of
the Learned Solicitor-General.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL promised to endea•
your to frame a clause which should meet the views of
the Right Hon. Baronet.

Mr. 'MULLINGS said that no prudent trustees would
now effect a sale by private contract, until after they had
offered the property by auction.
Mr. SADLEIR thought it should be left quite open es
to whether the public or private sale should be first tried.
At present scarce any mortgagee in Ireland bad
power of sale by private contract ; and all judgment
creditors must necessarily resort to an auction under the
powers of the court. This incurred great expense, per
ticularly where the property was small ; and during the
last two years there had been a growing disposition to
avoid those sales.
Colonel DUNNE did not believe that many sales i,
fee simple would be operated under this Bill ; it wool
a
principally affect the smaller gentry, few of whom were
holders in fee.

Mr. OSBORNE was certain that great frauds would
be committed, unless the utmost publicity was given to
the sale.

Mr. MONSELL feared that a public sale would injti-
rieusly affect small properties.
The clause, as amended, was then agreed to, as were
clauses up to 50 inclusive.
On clause 51 being put,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL proposed to make as
addition to the clause, the object of which was to make
parties who had by themselves or their agents made
fraudulent or collusive purchases of property, liable to
make full compensation.
The clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Clause 52 was agreed to.
Clauses 53 to 62 inclusive were agreed to.
On the question being put from the Chair that clause
63, as amended, do stand part of the Bill,
Colonel DUNNE moved that the clause be omitted.
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the clause
Against it
Majority
•• —135
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 64, 65, 66, were agreed to.
On clause 67,
Mr. O'CONNOR tendered his thanks to the o°ll'