The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-22 00:00:00

IRISH CORPORATIONS.

Ireland, and a deputation some short time ago waited on
the Loral-Lieuteuant and represented the great hardships
which had arisen under the course of legislation with re-
spect to minor guilds, and they prayed that such guilds
might be abolished. A promise had been made, which
had been already so far carried into effect that a Bill was
prepared for the remedying of the grievance, and which
would in two or three days from that time be introduced
before the House.
ARTS AND ARCHITECTURE IN IRELAND.
Mr. WYSE would wish to put a question to the Right
Hon. Baronet which was in some degree connected with
the previous questions from the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Cork. He wished to know whether any measures
had been taken for the encouragement of public compe-
tition with respect to the plans fur building the public
colleges, thus giving an impetus to the fine arts and the
architecture of Ireland ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the answer might
have more properly come from his Right Hon. Friend,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was more compe-
tent to reply to the question than he was. He believed,
however, that the site of only one of the colleges had
been determined upon, and in this case the architect had
been appointed.
THE HEROES OF THE PUNJAUB.

Mr. BAILLIE said that as a vote of public money had
been proposed by Government for the purpose of erect-
ing a monument to the memory of Sir Robert Sale, he
wished to know whether it was intended to grant a sinai
lar tribute to another otlicer of superior rank, who hkid
equally distinguished himself in Atighanistan, and who
had also fallen in the late suce( ssful campaign—he meant
the late Major-General Sir John M'Caskill ?
Sir R. PEEL said, I beg to state that, considering
the services, the high character, and the circumstances
attending the death of Sir John MiCaskill, it is my
intention to propose that the same tribute of respect be
paid to that lamented officer that the Government has
already submitted to the House in the case of Sir
Robert Sale.
OUTRAGES IN THE TOWN OF CARRICK-ON-

SUIR.
Mr. WYSE said that he collected from the public
papers, that on Wednesday last, outrages of a terrific
character had taken place in the town of Carrick-on-
Suir, and that the military were obliged to bo called out.
Apprehensions were entertained at Waterford that
they would be subjected to the same excesses.
He believed that these riots had been of a very serious
character, and he was happy to say that, from what he
had understood, the members of the Catholic Church
had been most peaceable. He had been also informed
that serious apprehensions were entertained by the
members of that Church of the pernicious results that
were likely to arise from them, and he wished to know
the intentions of her Majesty's Government.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that from sources that were
open to all Hon. Members were aware that very serious
riots had occurred in Tipperary, but he was happy to
say that from information which had been received by
the Government during the last week these disturbances
had been entirely suppressed, and that measures had
been taken to prevent their recurrence.
IRISH COLLEGES BILL.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL wished to know from the
Bight Hon. Baronet opposite whether there was any
objection on the part of the Government to bring in any
measure during the present session to amend the Bill for
the founding of colleges in Ireland, which was passed
last year? To that Bill there were the strongest objec-
tions in the country, and he wished therefore to ask him
whether he was inclined to take the whole case into con-
sideration, and thus to satisfy the feelings of the nation.
The Right Honourable Baronet was aware that the
whole of the Catholic prelates, an overwhelming body
of the Catholic clergy, and the whole of the Irish peo-
ple, almost without exception, were opposed to the Bill
as it now stood.

Sir J. GRAHAM—There is no intention on the part
of the Government to introduce any alteration of that
Bill.

IRISH COUNTY ELECTIONS.

Mr. F. FRENCH wished to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet whether there was any intention on the
part of the Government to introduce any Bill for
shortening county elections in Ireland.
Sir J. G RAH A M—lt has already been stated in the
course of the present session that her Majesty's Govern-
ment intended to introduce a Bill for amending the Act
which regulated county elections in Ireland. The Bill
was already prepared.
SIR ROBERT DICK.

Sir DE LACY EVANS believed that the Government
Punjaub we that Sir E. Di(khiAl fallen in the
campaign, as wall as the other officers whose memory
it was the iutention of Parliament "„to honour, and he
wished to know whether this gallant officer was to be
remembered along with them? _ _

Sir R. PEEL-In the course of the several conversa-
tions which have arisen on the Punjaub campaign, I
have stated that it is my intention to recommend the
same memorials should be erected to all the officers en- '
joying the rank of Major-General, and I shall there-
fore deem it my duty to recommend the same tribute of
respect to Sir It Diets as to the other gallant officers
who have fallen in this contest.
CANADA TIMBER.
Lord G. BENTINCK said that he rose to ask for an
explanation of a false return which had been made to
that House. He hail had the honour of moving for a
return of the prices of Canada and bevelled timber
during the last seven years, he made the motion for that
return the last week in January, or the first week in
February ; that part of the return which appeared to him
to be false is dated from the Landed Surveyor's-office on
Feb. 13, and it was consequently on the 13th of Feb.
that the return must have been made before the
Board of Trade. That return was not presented to the
House until the Ist of April.-(hear hear.) The object
of his moving for the return was to throw some
light on the debate which was then going forward on
the timber duties. The return' which had been
made to the Ilouse had given the following as the
prices of bevelled timber. It stated that the prices in
1840, were from 5/. ss. to 51. 10s. per load, duty paid.
In 1841, it stated the prices were from 5/. ss. to 51. 7s. 6d.
In 1842, the prices were stated to be from 41. 17s. 6d.
to 5/. per load. He begged pardon of the
House, he had been giving what he believed
to be the real prices of timber during the periods
he had mentioned, and not the returns furnished by the
Government. The following were the returns presented
by the Ministers :-In 1840, the price per load of be-
velled timber duty paid was said to vary from 81. to
81. ss. ; in 1841, it was said to vary from 71. 15s.
to 81, and in 1842, from 71. 15s. to Si., the
duty being 555. per load. The average of the three
years he had mentioned, by referring to the returns laid
on the table by her Majesty's Ministers, was 8/. ls. Bd.
In 1842, the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the
Government introduced his changes with respect
to the duties on timber, and he reduced
the duty to 255. per load in 1844. The return went
to state that the prices in 1842 varied from 51. ss.
to 51. lOs ; in 1845, from Si. to 51. 7s. ; and in
1846, from Si. 12s. 6d. to Si. 17s. 6d., making an
average of 51. 12s. 6d. Now, the result of these re-
turns went to show to that House, and to the country,
that the consumers had gained by the remission of 30s.
duty, not only the whole amount of duty of 19s. 2d , over
and above the duty, making the whole gain 495. 2d. by
this reduction of 20s. alone upon timber. Now he be-
lieved it to be the fact, so far from these returns being
true, that if a true return had been made to the House,
it would have been found that the prices from 1840 to
1842 were as follows :-In 1840, Si. 10s. per load ; in
1841, 5/. ss. •, end in 1842, 5/. ss. ; showing an average
of 51. 65., the duty 555. per load, whilst in the last
three years since the duty had been reduced from 655.
to 305. He believed that if a true return had been
made, it would have shown that the prices were 4/. ss.
in 1844, 41. ss. in 1845, and 41. 12s. 6d. in 1846, showing
an average price of 4/. 7s. 6d., so that the consumers
upon the average of three years since the duty was
taken off, instead of gaining, as it was represented by
the return, 493. 2d. per load, only gained about 19s. 2d.,
while the balance went into the pockets of the producer.
Now it was a most important matter to that House
that they should be able to rely on the truth
and accuracy of those statistical papers vThich were
laid before it by the Board of Trade, and on which the
House founded its legislation. tie considered it a serious
matter, and his first intention was to move that
the subordinate officer should be called to the Bar to
explain his instructions and his object in imposing
upon the House. It might be all very well for
gentlemen connected with the commercial inte-
rest to discover these false returns, and to be
uninfluenced by them; but these returns passed
current with the vast majority of the people
and with the House, and leading articles, written by
learned editors of newspapers, were founded on
them' proving the great advantage to be derived
from free trade. He considered it therefore his bounden
duty to explain these circumstances, and the false re-
turn had lain upon the table of the House for seven
weeks, and it was not until the Ist of April the proper
and correct one had been given.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that he could not feel him-
self justified to enter into any argument upon the
subject, but merely to state the facts. His atten-
tion had not been called to the error until the Noble
Lord had intimated his intentions to the Govern-
ment. As to the returns, though made by her
Majesty's Government to the House, he was sorry
to say that it was impossible for any Minister to un-
dertake to be responsible for their faultless accuracy.
Having discovered that an error had occurred, he had
orderedthatthe a choiroraescet,
and
dturint
would
dldbe be immediately
possession
uteloyf
presented to
as to what department chis hand a letter from
Hon. Members to-morrow. t
hIeI e
Chtiasdt
oailnsso madee
rinquiries
occurred in, and he held i n
turn was certified. thet o
the
'our requisition, calling
following effect:-In answer to )
of the Customs the
the officer by whom tThhee
Memel and Canadian
error in the return on the
accuracylee woaf
that it was
timber arose, I regret to state
on me to state in what department
mis-
take appears to have arisen from the officer
taking the average price from the price current, which
in the landing surveyor's department.
_The
is not an official document, and in which the prices are
not. He (Sir R. Peel) apprehended that
there could be
He could
quoted, sometimes including the duty and sometimes
no doubt as to how the mistake had arisen. d
only express his regret that the mistake had occ
re ,
but he had taken every measure to rectify it.
TENANT RIGHTS IN IRELAND.
Mr. P. SCROI'E rose to put a question to the Right
Hon. Baronet on the subject of the legality of tenant
rights in the North of Ireland. There were one hun-
dred_
millions of property unprotected in the north of
Ireland. The pul 1 c sheu'd be made aware of the bad
state of the law on this subject, befece they proceeded to
discuss the present law of landlord and right. It should
be ascertained beyond all doubt whether the outgoing
tenant in Ireland had really any right to sell his got d-
will to the property which he was samut to give up, or
whether the tenant was entitled to compensation Pecan
the landlord when he ejected him, That claim had bet

Mr. O'CONNELL wished to know whether it was the
intention of the Government to abolish the minor guilds
in Dublin ?

Sir J. GRAHAM said, that although he had not been
prepared for the question of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Cork, he was yet enabled in some degree
to answer his inquiry. The Hon. nod Learned Member
was doubtless aware that, with respect to Scotland,
a Bill was prepared for the purpose of abolishing the ex-
clusive rights of which the Hon. and Learned Member
complained. The same evils had been found to exist iu

recognised in a great part of the north of Ireland for a
long series of years, and to a very great extent. To
such an extent, in fact, had that right been recognised
that in some instances the outgoing tenant sold their
good-will at five, ten, fifteen, twenty, and sometimes
even more years' purchase on their rents. It had there-
fore become a recognised practice ; the tenant had in
fact gained a sort of ownership in the soil, which he
might dispesa of when and as he pleased. Evidence of
that right being recognised regularly in Down, Armagh.
and the other counties of Ulster, was given by several
witnesses before Lord Devon. But it app 'ared that the
landlords were now invading that right of the tenants,
and continued nibbling at it till they hoped they might
destr .y it. If the tenants were not in fact entitled to
such right, the public should hare a definite answer to
that effect from the Government ; and, after it had been
recognised fur so long a period, he wished to know
wlya her the landlords of Ireland had it in their power
to cell ;n the aid of the military or civil force to eject
their t nants, without giving them any compensation.
Th, re were cases in which a number of tenants were
located on large tracts of land, and where the sheriff of
the county was called upon to eject those tenants, with-
out any reference to the right that the tenant had to the
sale of the good-will of his farms. The Hon. Member
concluded by reading his question. •
Sir JAMES GRAIIA al said that the question put
by the Hon. Member involved no fewer than three other
questions—namely, a question of common policy, a
question of common right, and a question of common
law.—(H, ar.) With regard to the civil r'ghts of the
tenants in the province of Ulster in Ireland, he begged
to say he believed that such a right was not recognised
by the written law of the land, but by the law of
usage ; and if he were asked whetlur that right
was rec gnised by the Courts of Law in Ireland,
he should say he believed it was not.—(Hear,
hirer.) With regard to the law of ejectment or
habare, in such cases the sheriff had no right whatever
to exercise any judgment of his own, but to proceed to
execute the writ ; and it was the duty of all authori-
ties, civil and military, on the requisition of the sheriff,
to attend him and assist him in the execution of that
writ. Therefore, if a writ of injunction, or habare,
were issued, it would be the duty of the sheriff, and of
the civil and military authorities, to act as be had des-
cribed. Again, he had only to say that the question of
the Hon. Member was one of law and not of policy.

THE INFERNAL MACHINE.
Mr. CALEB POWELL wished to d,aw the attention of
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Horne
Department to a statement which had appeared in a local
journal, stating that a machine, which had been aptly called an
"inf2rnal machine," had been found in a warahouse in Sheffield.
The mischief that had resulted was comparatively trivial, but
this was nothing when compared to the fear which was engen-
dered in the public mind by such a state of things, and which
those by whom these machines were invented, were desirous to
uphold. Now if such a statement had been furnished, he
wished to know whether it was in the contemplation of the Go-
vernment to found a Bill upon it, for the better protection of
the lives of that portion of her Majesty's subjects, on whose
premises such attempts had been made ?—( Laughter. )
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had heard by accident of
the machine to which the Hon. Gentleman had adverted. He
was understood to say that the Government did not intend at
the present moment to introduce a Bill en the subject, prefer-
ring to leave the punishment of the offen.lers to the law.
PROTECTION OF LIFE AND PROPERTY
(IRELAND).
Mr. C. BULLER said he wished to call the attention of the
Government to a subjeet in which the promotion of the busi-
ness of the House was involved. On the 20th of March he
moved for certain returns, with respect to the outrages re-
ported by the constabulary of Ireland since 1841, which he had
hoped would have been laid on the table of the House before
this. Similar returns up to 1841 had been furnished and were
now in the library of the House. He did not wish to make any
disturbance about the matter—( A laugh)—but he was anxious
to know when the returns moved for would ba laid on the table
of the House ? _ . . .

Sir JAMES GRAHAM, who spoke in a low tone, was un-
derstood to say, that the returns would be laid on the table of
the House vrith the least possible delay.
Mr. C. BULLER said, looking at the way in which the
public business of that House was conducted by the Right
Hon. Baronet—(Hear, hear)—he was sure no unnecessary
delay would take place.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL also inquired when certain returns
he had moved for with respect to the number of agrarian out-
rages in England, would be laid on the table?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM also said no unnecessary delay
would take place in supplying them.
The dropped orders of yesterday were then disposed of.
THE CORN IMPORTATION BILL—CUSTOMS
DUTIES BILL.

The Committee on these two Bills was postponed till Friday
neat.

PROTECTION OF LIFE (IRELAND)

The adjourned debate on the first reading of this Bill was
postponed till Friday next.
SUPPLY.
On the motion of Mr. GREENE, the report of this Com•
mittee was brought up, and the resolutions agreed to.
POOR-LAW COMMISSIONERS.

eome necessary, and that no stain was thrown upon Mr. Day's
character, The Hon. Member then went on to say that is
Nicholls had ascribed Mr. Day's dismissal to his not being
equal to the duties of the office. The House can conceive
what must have been Mr. Day's astonishment when, after hav-
ing received the letter calling upon him to resign within a
fortnight of the date of that letter, he 'lewd from Mr. Nicholls
that the establishment was reduced, and that Colonel Wade
had been appointed to succeed him in the office which he
held as Assistant-Commissioner. Colonel Wade had
been appointed to succeed him, and he was rather inclined
to think that the prolongation of the appointment had been
made to suit Colonel Wade's convenience. Mr. Day had con-
tinued to act as Assistant-Commissioner for nearly two months
after he had received the letter requesting him to resign ; and
in order to complete the inconsistency which had been dis-
played throughout this transaction, it would appear that, from a
period extending from the 31st of March to the 18th of April,
the district over which Mr. Day had presided was left with-
out any superintendence. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
bad stater!, that no fault was attributable to him, but no rerson
had been giver, for being so peremptorily called upon to resign.
It could not Lave been that it was intended to reduce the
number of the officers employed, or to reduce the establish-
ment of the Poor-law Commission ; why, there had
been no reduction in the Assistant Commissioners,
and the Board had, in fact, been materially increased
by the appointment of a fourth Chief Commissioner.
The Hon. Gentleman then read a letter which Mr. Day had
addressed to the Duke of Wellington, when he found that he
could not succeed in obtaining redress elsewhere. The letter
complained that Mr. Day had been dismissed; but with the
mere excuse---a vague generality of public service and public
duty—the public would not feel that he had been dismissed
without a cause, on the contrary, they would entertain suspi-
cions that some charge was reserved against him. The Hon.
Gentleman then resumed by reading a motion, of which he
had given notice, and proceeded to say there would be no iin-
prorriety in referring this subject to a Committee of Inquiry.
There existed great similarity between the case of Mr. Day
and the case of Mr. Parker, which had been brought before
the House. With respect to Mr. Day, he had repeatedly
applied to the Poor-law Commissioners without obtaining any
satisfactory reply. Assisting Commissioners had been dis-
missed at different times under circumstances which exposed
them to the most disagreeable suspicions. There had been R 3
disturbance about Mr. Day's case, all had been conducted with
the strictest propriety, and he felt that both Mr. Day and Mr.
Parker had met great injustice at the hands of the
Commissioners. His belief was, that when these
two cases, with all the facts connected with them,
should come before the public, it would be quite
impossible that the House could again vote the salaries
of the Poor-law Commissioners without having first investi-
gated an inquiry into their genet al mode of administering the
poor-laws of the country. The House was probably aware of
the mode in which the Rochdale board of guardians had been
justified by a decision of the Court of Queen's Bench, in
disobeying an order of the Poor-law Commissioners. They
had been compelled, after every imaginary fencing on the part
of their counsel, at last reluctantly to confess that they were
in error. They were obliged to admit that the general order,
addressed to the Rochdale board of guardians, was illegal, inas-
much that, after having been signed by one commissioner, it
was carried by a messenger to Mr. Lewis, to receive a second
signature. If then the Commissioners were wrong in one case,
the natural inference would be that they were also wrong in
other cases, which escaped the public notice. He believed
that if a Committee were appointed to inquire into the
general mode of administering the Poor-law Amendment Act,
there would be no difficulty in proving that much mismange-
ment existed. It would be found that the Poor-law Commis-
sioners had neglected to comply with many of the provisions
contained in the Poor-law Amendment Act. In the Rochdale
case, for instance, where there was an order required for the
signature of two Poor-law Commissioners, it had been signed
by one commissioner, and then by the secretary, which ren-
dered the order ineffective, inasmuch as it was not complying
with the express provision of the Act. The services of the
secretary, as recording officer, had been in a measure entirely
dispensed with. He (Mr. Christie) bad always been a strong
friend of the Poor-law Amendment Act, and had always voted
for it. The object of his present motion was not directed
against the poor-laws, but against the Foor-law Commissioners.
He could not tell what would be the result of the present
motion, but whatever it might be, he felt sure that the state-
ments he had made would go forth to-morrow to the public,
and they would be the judges. They would draw this inference
from the cases of Mr. Day and Jr. Parker, that no officer
attached to the Poor-law Commissioners was at present safe
from the arbitrary manner in which the Commissioners exerted
their power.
The motion was then read from the Chair, when

Sir JAMES GRAHAM rose and said he could assure the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down, that if
he had taken the opportunity of asking him whether or not it
was his intention to oppose the motion before the House, he
(Sir James Graham) should have informs(' him that it was
not his intention to have opposed it. On a former occasion he
had told the House that in his opinion it was utterly impossible
for the Poor-law Commissioners properly to discharge their
duties, unless they possessed the unfettered liberty of discharg-
ing their Assistant Commissioners, and other officers, whenever
they thought proper, without being held responsible to any
other power. He had come to the fixed conclusion that the
case of Mr. Parker had been thoroughly inquired into, and he
could not see any distinction between that case and the case of
Mr. Day. The Hou-e had decided by a majority on a former
occasion, and it was not his in'ention to call upon the House to
come to a division on the present occasion. He was willing at
once to accede to the motion of the Hoe. Gentleman. The
Hon. Gentleman hail animadverted upon certain circumstances
which had nothirg whatever to do with this case. With
respect to the Rochdale Board of Guardians, he believed that
there had been an error in that ease, but it was
not his intention at present to go into that matter.
The Hon. Gentleman had also said that the proceedings of
the Poor-law Commissioners in the case of Mr. Parker and
Mr. Day could not be justified. He had every reason to be-
lieve that the Commissioners had exercised their power in
those cases with great discretion. It was possible that the
superintendents of the districts might, in their opinion, be
placed under the superintendence of a person who, on tha
whole, might be considered as more adequate to discharge the
duties. But he (Sir James Graham) did not wish to institute
any comparison between Mr. Day and Colonel Wade. He,
for his own part, had no partiality whatever for Colonel
Wade, and, in fact, was unacquainted with him, and was also
unacquainted with Mr. Day ; he could, therefore, decide with
perfect indifference between them. All that he could say was,
that with respect to any part which he had taken in this trans-
action, that he had not been guided in any way by showing
favour and partiality to one more than another, It was neces-
sary to promote the public service with reference to particular
districts, that the Commissioners should have that power of
appointing whom they pleased to the superintendence. He
(Sir James Graham), for one, would consent to the produc-
tion of all correspondence and papers relative to this trans-
action. He was fully prepared to make the most ample and
unreserved explanation with respect to the circumstances that
had occurred in reference to the resignation of Mr. Day as
Assistant Commissioner. Under these circumstances, he
should not feel justified in opposing the motion of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman.

. _
Mr. CHRISTIE rose to move for copies of all correspond-
ence hetween William Day, Esq., late Assistant Commissioner
of Poor-laws and the Poor-law Commissioners, and the Secre-
tary for the Home Department, relative to his involuntary re-
signation of his Assistant Poor-law Commissionership ; and of
all Alinutes relative
,to Mr. Day's resignation, and to the ap-
pointment of Colonel Wade as his successor. Also, that it be
be an instruction to the Committee on the Andover Union to
inquire into all the circumstances under which Mr. Day was
called upon to resign. In asking for these papers, he thought
that he was only asking for, that which was requisite, from a
reason that under the circumstances it was just:and necessary for
the public service, and which seems on every ground to require
ex ilanation. He trusted that there would be no objection
made by the Government on this occasion, although he was
aware that the Poor-law Commissioners had, under the Act,
the power of removing an Assistant-Commissioner ; but at the
same time, he was aware that the Act of Parliament which
gave the discretion also required that it should be exercised only
upon due cause being shown; and he wished to know whether,
in the case to which he had referred, any communication had
been made to the Secretary of the Home Department? By that
Act it was also required that at every meeting of the Com-
missioners the secretary should be present, and without him
the board was not considered complete. At each of these
meetings also it was required that the secretary should take a
full note of the proceedings, the minutes of which should be
forwarded according to the regulations of the Poor-law Amend-
ment Act. (The Hon. Gentleman here read the 7th section
of the Act, which regulates this proceeding.) He wished to
know whether these minutes had been made, and whether they
bad been submitted to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite?
Mr. Day applied to the Poor-law Commissioners, and to the
Right Hon. Baronet, for all the minutes relative to the call
upon him for his resignation. Reasons had been given to him
—reasons which he should show presently did not at all tally
with one another. He thought he might safely say that the
facts and circumstances of the case fully and clearly disproved
every one of the reasons which had been advanced. These
reasons being totally unsatisfactory to Mr. Day, he applied
to the Poor-law Commissioners to ascertain the real cause of
his dismissal, but the only answer he could get from them was
an evasion of the question, and from the Right Honourable
Baronet an acknowledgment of his letter. He would
now proceed to detail the circumstances of Mr. Day's
case. At the time when he was unexpectedly re-
quested to send in his resignation, he bad been an Assistant
Commissioner for a period of eight years. Mr. Day, long
before the passing of the Poor-law Commission Act, had
paid special attention to the working of the poor-law, having
been for some years in the commission of the peace for the
county of Sussex, and had watched its operations with great
interest. At the time of the passing of the Act, Mr. Day
gave to the:Commissioners the benefit of his experience, and
sent them a report, the value of which they at once admitted,
and which they printed and placed as a preface to their own
report. Mr. Day continued to give them the benefit of his
observations after the formation of the board at Somerset
House, and the sense which the Commissioners had of his
assistance was proved by the fact, that when, towards the close
of the year 1835, it was determined to appoint six additional
commissioners, it was proposed to Mr. Day, without any soli-
citation on his part, that he should undertake one of those
appointments thus placed at their disposal. He believed that
he might say the applications for cemmissionerships were ex-
tremely numerous, and out of a large number of candidates
for the appointment, many were persons of distinction and
ability. Mr. Day, however, was the person selected to fill
one o f the six cemmissionerships. He did not accept the
appointment without some solicitation, as he had embarked
largely in farming, in Sussex, and it occurred to him that his
acceptance of the appointment would withdraw him from the
pursuits in which he was engaged, and there would be nothing
in the appointment to recompense him for the withdrawal.
Mr. Day accepted the appointment, and from that time con-
tinued in the situation for eight years, during which he zea-
lously and faithfully discharged his duty, and received the ap-
probation of his superiors. During the whole of that period he
was only absent eight weeks, and he was never subject to the
slightest expression of disapprobation. The only fault—if
fault it could be called—that was found with him, was Mr.
Lewis requesting him in his communications to write his cha-
racters larger. The eight weeks absence arose from an acci-
dent which Mr. Day met with in August, 1843, by which he
was laid up for five weeks. On the Bth of September he re-
sumed his duty, and he continued- improving in health and
strength, and had almost forgotten the accident, when he was
reminded of it about five months after it took place by receiving
a communication from the Poer-law Commissioners. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman here read the letter which Mr.
Day received, which was to the effect that the condition of the
district had been brought under the consideration of the Poor-
law Commissioners, and they were isfied that art active As-
sat
sistant Commissioner was necessary and indispensable. On
this account, from the accident that had occured on the 1M
August, and as they were prechluded. ffrom appointing any
mr. Day) could not make the exer-
to the conclusion that he (.
tion necessary to the due fulfilment el the doties of the office, and
supernumerary, they were under t e pain ul necessity of coming
suegested his resignation. This was signed by Mr. Nicholls.
Mr Day did not resume his duties till the 25th September,
but he bad reason to suppose that the Poor-law Commis-
sioners believed that he had recovered from the effects of
resume his duties, althopglt he would still, no
his accident before that time, for he had a letter from a Mr.
Lewis of a previous date, stating that he was glad that he
was able to
doubt, feel the effects of the accident for Some time to come.
Mr. Day replied to the communication from Mr. Nicholls,
and stated, that as far as his bodily health was concerned,e
he was as well as ever, but he was convinced that had he
asked leave for a quarter he should have been well much
sooner i but he added, that, under the circumstances, he
could not think of asking leave for such
a
Mr. Day got no answer to the letters which he forwarded to
the Poor-law Commissioners, further than expressions of •
cere regret that they were compelled, from a s arise of du En-,
abstain from giving the reasons of his dismissal. Sentimentsty, to
of such regret were certainly lavishly wed, and they disclaimed
zll intention to injure him, and all absence of personal feelinged
in the matter. The Commissioners had received evidence
against Mr. Day with closed doors, and that gentleman had no
opportunity of ascertaining the grounds of his dismissal.
He
had from time to time written to them, praying and beseech-
ing them to reveal to him those reasons, but he had not, up
to the present moment received any such information. Now
he (Mr. Christie) considered it a painful injustice that an old
and long-tried officer, Mr. Day, should be treated as he had.
Lewis,sking him to give •
Mr. Day wrote to Mr.
sons of his dismissal, to which Mr. Day received an answer,
but the writer scrupulously abstained from giving any reasons
for his dismissal. The writer of the letter wrote another to
the Chairman of the South Wales Union, and received an an.
ewer, in which the writer declared that he had never heard
his name mentioned before Sir James Graham, so that that
point that Mr. Day's dismissal had not been owing to any re-
presentation that had been made to the South Wales Com- '
Miasioners. When Mr. Day could get no satisfactory explan-
ation from the Poor-layi Commissioners, he applied to the
Right Hon. Gentleman, from whom he received a letter,
which the Hon. Alread, and which
ember , was to the effect
that the Poor-law Collnlissiollers alone had the cl.ercise of
the authority of dismissal, and that dismissals had taken piece
t emsequenoe of a reduction of the eatablishment having be.

The motion was then put from the Chair, and agreed to
without a division.

Mr. CHRISTIE said that the Right Hon. Baronet had
given no explanation of his intended reduction of the number
of Assistant Poor-law Commissioners, as stated in the letter
written by him.

Sir J. GRAHAM said, that when he wrote that letter he
did contemplate a reduction of the number of Assistant Poor-
law Commissioners.

MAL-PRACTICES IN THE GENERAL POST-

OFFICE.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that he would ask if it was the
intention of Government to accede to the motion he was about
to make. He would not long occupy the time of the House,
if the Government intended to accede to it, but if it was their
intention to oppose the motion he was about to submit, he
would throw himself upon the House, and request it, if be
made out a case for inquiry, to give him its support. He
could not conceive any public department in this country that
it was more necessary for the House to examine and inquire into
than the General Post-office. At the close of last session he
had brought forward this question, but it came almost too
late. He had asked for a Commission to inquire into the
manner in which that establishment was managed. With re-
gard to the complaints attached to the General Post-office, he
believed that there was no public office in this country, against
which greater cause of dissatisfaction could be alleged. The
complaints were not only outside the walls of that department,
but they existed to an alarming and discreditable extent
within its walls. The petition to which he was about to
call the attention of the House, in order to have
it referred to a Committee, showed to him
all sorts of mal-administration. The public complained of this
department of the public service in consequence of the delay
in the delivery of letters. He could prove that, but for certain
mal-practices going on in the office, the public would have
their letters half.an-hour sooner in this city. There existed
also a considerable amount of dissatisfaction in the office at the
manner in which the officers were treated by their superiors,
and also at the manner in which the carriers and sorters were
' remunerated. If any subordinate officer had any complaint to
make to the Postmaster-General, he had no chance of reaching
the ears of that gentleman, because it had to go through certain
channels, where it would be misrepresented or stopped, so that
the men were afraid to make any complaint for fear of sus-
pension. The petition to which he would call the attention
of the House was from Mr. Duncan, a gentleman of great
respectability, and proprietor of the Sentinel newspaper. He
had been at the trouble to examine the allegations contained in
that petition, and there was not one of them he was not pre-
pared to support and verify on evidence. Mr. Duncan had
given offence to the Post-office by some charge he had made
against them, and which appeared in the Sentinel newspaper.
It was alleged that those statements were libellous, and two
actions had been brought by Mr. Kelly, the superintendent of
the letter-carrier department. One of the actions was brought
in June last, and the result was, that after being held in
abeyance for some time, thinking to alarm the proprietor of the
newspaper, and hinder him from persevering in his attack, the
costs were paid, and the action was withdrawn. They thought
that having shown this merciful consideration to Mr. Duncan
be would not again molest them ; but he repeated his original
assertion, and a second action was brought, which action was
held over as long as it possibly could; the costs were again
paid, and it was withdrawn. If that action had been still pend-
ing, it would he his duty not to make any reference to the pre-
sent petition ; but as it had been abandoned, he was at liberty
to discuss any of the assertions contained. Mr. Duncan com-
menced by stating that there were many abuses in the General
Post-office in St. Martin's-le-Grand—that complaints had been
held back—and that practice had continued for many years.
He (Mr. Ducombe) was in hopes that what he had said last
year would have caused some improvement, but they had only
put on a few more hands, inefficient for their duty, and there
had been some improvement in the salary of the sub-sorters ;
but if the Post. office authorities supposed that they were satis-
fied, and that they were still to be oppressed, they were mis-
taken. The petition stated that the principal cause of delay
in the delivery of letters was a private undertaking with the
office, by some of the persons officially employed in it. The
undertaking was called " Kelly's Post-office Directory," and
he had no hesitation in saying that it was a gross job, and he
was ready to prove before a Committee that this private un-
dertaking converted a public establishment into a sort of lucre,
tive printing-office ; and so long as that undertaking remained,
so long would there ho discontent in the establishment, and
corruption, oppression, and tyranny, and so long would the
public be injured. The petition stated that in the compilation
of this Directory the earriers and sub-sorters were engaged
during the time in which they should be performing their
pubic duties. It would not do for the Government simply to
deny his assertion, or to attempt to screen the parties, for he
could prove that they were engaged in this work during the
whole year round, and the servants of the Post-office were
beginning to prepare the " Directory " for the year 1847. Se
much were the carriers and sorters occupied that, when the
pressure of public business made it necessary, the authorities
sent to 130 swell-court, Chancery-lane, where this work was pre-
pared, to get them back to the Post-office ; and thus many
letters were' delayed. A strong instance of this occurred the
other day. •It was well known that this large book, for which
they paid 305., came out at the commencement of the year,
and there was a " Supplemental Directory," which came out
in March. He knew'that on the day when this supplemental
came'out it was delivered to the letter-carriers, and the letters
were detained at the office half an hour for the delivery of this
in the office for a
attendant
wwgoerkk.
anLdett;eurs4aynsd
in
newspapers
t work. The Indian mail mid come in that
on getting tip that
loss of the Great Liver-
morning. It had been delayed by the
qiileelnlic eh aodf Itahm confusion_.

poool, and came up in the Oriental, ten days after. Letters which things had been managed in that depa 4 ent„lint the.
and papers were thrown on one side, as the delivery of that time had now gone by. The Hon. Member for Fi 4. rury laid, thee,'
work aid not permit their delivery. There were papers for the the names for the Post-office Directory were . .s ° ot. tril4essalso
North and South American Coffee-house—for the Jerusal m ter-carriers. He couldsubstantiatethisstate .' a f 1' et . eifas....s7 ~,
Coffee-house—for Grindley and Co., Cornhill, and various month the letter-carrier who was in the h.. of leeettigle fik-,los °‘
others; and it appeared that all those letters were detained in at his door sent in a paper, and asked if S. lyoesiCsbis: . oss.,:s 2
, '''....)
consequence of that work, or job, whichever it was called. address? The letter-carrier might possi *sir- '4; ills' ss
The letter-carriers had been threatened to be reported if they door a quarter of an hour—possibly he mr.titot s- hilt, sits; 2 :Vs
did not assist in the delivery of the work, however attentive coring that he waited a quarter of an houraandousroing also, ":-• /
they might have been to their public duties. He (Mr. T. that he had so waited at fifty doors before he catniete hisorlsys./
Duncombe) did not believe that the Postmaster-general nos it would make his delivery at least an hour .and ectiA let Art r 3 iv
acquainted with those facts. In answer to his observations Formerly, when he (Mr. Williams) was eohneett•• tvitEthd" '
it would be said that these letter-carriers collected the informa- City, he used to pay the letter-carrier an extra fee, for the por-
tion for the work out of official hours. He was happy to say pose of getting his letters delivered shortly after nine o'clock,
that such an answer would be quite false, for the information and he observed that his neighbours who did not pay did not
was collected during the delivery of the letters. They might roceive their letters till after eleven. The Hon. Member for
be told that these men had an interest in collecting this infor- Finsbury had pointed out to the House the many errors which
melon. They had a commission on the sale of the work—a had found admission into the Directory, but how, he (Mr.
fact very discreditable to the establishment.—( Hear, hear.) Williams) would ask, could it be otherwise when this individual
Let them have a fair remuneration for their labour, and let had the monopoly of it ? The public had no choice; they were
them not be paid by this paltry, miserable, jobbing work. It obliged to purchase it, for every competitor had teen driven
was well known that the parties who had the least possible from the field. He contended that where charges of this nature
chance of anything like favour in the Post-office were those were brought against any of the officers connected with any of
who could sell most of the works of Messrs. Kelly and Co. the public departments, a Committee to inquire into the truth
If the letter-carriers did not collect the information required, of these charges ought to be immediately granted ; and more
other men were put on in their places, and so ,such was stopped , especially when a serious charge of this character—a charge of
from their week's earnings. The petitioner further stated that ; fraud—of fraud on the public stores—was made ;he could not
the public stores, such as ink, paper, pens, &c., were freely i conceive on what ground her Majesty's Government could re-
used for the purposes of this work. What right had they to ; fuse inquiry. Even if the Right Hon. Gentleman the Under-
use the public stores ? And it was alto stated by the petitioner ; Secretary for the Treasury were to attempt a reply, he would
that the revenue had been defrauded, by means of the sending require to depend altogether for information upon the very in-
out of the circulars for this work by the letter-carriers, with- dividuals who were interested in the continuance of the system.
out paying the stamp duties Would the public be satisfied He would conclude by repeating that the petitioner was inca-
with such proceeding as this? It was a fraud on the revenue. pable of making such a charge unless he was well aware that it
The petitioner also stated that Mr. Frederick Kelly had in- was perfectly true. The Hon. 11Iembei concluded by seconding
strewed the letter-carriers how to evade the Hawking Act can the motion.
the sale of the " Directory." The books were left at the doors The question having been put,
of gentlemen, and if they were not at home the book was left. Mr. CARDWELL rose, and said that before he followed
If the money was given for it, nothing further was said about the Hon. Member who had brought forward that petition into
it; but if no money was forth-coming the book was removed. the details that might be expected from him, the House would
He said that this was hawking. Mr. Kelly had also, on his perhaps allow him to make one or two preliminary observations.
own authority, stopped the wages of letter-carriers for debts And first he would assure the Hon. Member, not only on the
due to Kelly and Co. by the letter-carriers on account of this part of the Treasury, but also on the part of the Noble Lord
Directory, and the petitioner also stated that he had witheld at the head of the Post-office Department, that no one among
thie resignations of letter-carriers until he had paid himself for the Postmasters-General who proceeded him would be less
the debts due by those carriers. He could prove cases whet e ready to screen from exposure or from punishment any servant
the resignation of letter-carriers had been detained because the guilty of mal-practices than would the Noble Lord who at
individual owed Mr. Kelly money, Mr. Kelly saying that he present filled that office.—( Ironical cheerirg from Mr. Dun-
would not give in the resignation until he was paid ; and the combe. ) The Hon. Member might derisively cheer him, but
letter-carrier doing no work, let it berecollected. HeHe said that the Hon. Member when he did so leeme. d. to. forget two of the
such a proceeding was a fraud on the revenue-
-and it was discreditable for the Government to( revenue—(Hear, hear) very. statements which he had made in his own speech that
protect a person of this sort. There are also 150 sanction
copiesof the ejieenpinog. He forgot that, while saying that the subordinates in
st-office were prevented by dread of the consequences
Directory sold for the use of the letter-carriers, and ' paid fir from, addressing their superiors, and while admitting that be
out of the revenue, at the same time that the use of th work on being questioned as to the propriety of their sub-
was forbidden to the letter-carriers, on the ground of its occa- mitting memorial_ to their superiors, advised them to be cau-
sioning loss of time to the person using them. The work was tious in doinga body of
that they tohreyhtroelde hhim that they
h were readfy to
colt, but never used, as the looking for the address would oc- come in a boti
were embodied
.irucutsh.tis him petition. tfiot iro
snap.
eitisy so much time that orders were given that they pressing their indignation att
the
yurianneNdgtrioeed.fworhtiehe pittirwpoassegsfee%
were not to be toed. Let the Government not come
down and say, as a defence, that these volumes Finsbury bHenonp.eArsloeumsbteurgftboer
number of two or three hundreds werotehwasttohwreeady to come for-
Thiswere necessary as guides for the delivery of the letters.
ward for the purpose of attacking their superiors, there was no
monopoly had been the means of ruining various parties
who had attempted to get up Post-office Directories, and the reason why they should not instead have addressed themselves
public were in consequent deprived of the benefit of competi- by a respectful memorial to the Government, or to the Noble
tion. He wished to know why it was that the public were to Lord at the head of the department, stating their grievances,
be deprived of the benefit of this competition ? fhe effect was and expressing their confident hope that those grievances
that the public had to pay 30s. for the Post-office Directory would be redressed.—(Cheers, ironical cheers, and cries of
which any bookseller in Paternoster-row could, if the same " Oh, oh.") He was not to be put down by mere cheering
advantages were given them that were given Mr. Kelly, supply from the Members opposite. He would repeat that if the
for 12s. 6d. It was a just ground of complaint, that the public subordinates in the Post-office had produced such a memorial,
could have for I 2s. or lbs. that for which they now paid 30s. and if they had addressed it to the head of their department,
—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Robson, who had attempted to publish their grievances would have been attended to. He (Mr. Card-.
a Directory, had been ruined by the interference of the Post- well) had the honour of receiving scores of memorials in the
office authorities; and by a return which had been made to the department to which lie had the honour to belong, and if these
House, it appeared that Mr. Kelly had purchased the copyright memorials were respectfully worded, he would not dare to stand
of Mr. Robson's work. Now he ( Mr. Duncombe) had before the Hon. Member and the House, if such memorials had
received a letter from a fi iend of Mr. Robson, been overlooked or neglected by the particular department with
which threw some light en that transaction. (The which he was connected. He would say then, and he thought
Hon. Gentleman here read the letter in question, which the House would believe him, that the Government were as
was to the effect, that Mr. Robson had been driven to ruin anxious as the Hon. Member to punish mal-practices of this sort,
and insanity, and his property destroyed, through the undue and he could affirm that the doors of the Treasury were always
influence of the Pest-office authorities, and that he had in con- open through the medium of the Post-office, and if any Hon.
sequence died in a workhouse. Mr. Robson applied to the Member of that House could prove that a memorial received
Post-office authorities to place him on the same footing with in that manner, had been neglected, then indeed good ground
Mr. Kelly, but he did not succeed in the application, and could be shown of complaint against that department. The
though he had gone to enormous expense in getting up his work, Hon. Gentleman towards the close of his speech, referred to a
he was obliged to abandon it, and part with it to Mr. Kelly' subject which had afforded matter for some little controversy
under most disadvantages circumstances. This letter was' between himself, and the Hon. Member at the close of the
signed by Mr. Knapp. On the return to which he (Mr. last session of Parliament, namely, the early delivery. He
Duncombe) had alluded, it was set forth that Mr. Kelly perhaps ought not to refer to that matter, because it formed no
bought the copyright of Mr. Robson, and in the puff issued by part of the allegation in the petition. He had the honour of
Mr. Kelly, it was said that Mr. Robson's Directory, in 1840, stating en a former occasion, that the payment of letter-carriers
contained a number cf blunders, which he explained and by the office for the early delivery was no part of the engage-
pointed out. But if the House would give him (Mr. Duncombe) merit entered into by th-at department. It was held by them
a Committee, he would engage to prove that in the Directory of as an ancient right, which had been continued, because a large
last year there were not less than 16,000 errors. —( Hear, hear.) portion of the mercantile community received a credit from the
'lbis was in the Directory so much puffed, and which had letter-carriers, which the Post-office could not give them, and
now total possession of the field. All the rival Directories had which must create a little confusion if it were at once with-
failed, and were given up, and this was the only Directory in drawn. That was the ground on which the early delivery was
ddeeffeennddeedd
asd uarcinognvetteienlcaset
tosestshieonpoosft-Posffirelieamsuebnotr.dinlattwesas,
bnuott
present system, it being impossible to compete against Mr.
London—of course the only one that could exist under the
feunri e
it7ricues b tuor
yt the u
imd epr cr he
produce
nu
et se inauL
ionntdt
ao
!In
e. e leff tat:ley Hg
eons)...
at the dissatisfaction that prevailed among
Kelly, with the Post-office servants at his back, to assist him,
.its-s ea Tmenry
In the mean time the public were suffering. But let them look
tleman living up three pair of stairs, in Chancery-lane, whose
the servants of the
letters had been detained tili a later period of the day, while
establishment From 400 to 500 individuals there were almost
his neighbours. upon the first and second floors had been deli-
in a state of insubordination, arising from the duties imposed
vered in the morning (because they were included in the early
on them in reference to this Directory. That alone was a
delivery)Air if the Hon. Member. would produce such a case.
fact that should show the dangerous state of the establishment.
, DUNCOMBE—Give me the Committee, and I will
He had had several deputations of the men waiting on him, in
reference to this matter, within the last fortnight ; and they "
so.°Mr CARDWELL said that the Hon. Member seemed to
intimated that any morning they could bring 200 or . '
infer that he asked him to withdraw his motion for a Commit-
-300 of them to wait on him (Mr. Duncombe) to prove
tee. The Hon. Member had quite mistaken him if he enter-,
the state of feeling in the establishment.—( A laugh.) This.
!amed this idea for a moment. All he meant to say was, that
was a bad, a dangerous, and improper state of things. He
had received a letter that morning, in reference to an alledged if any gentleman had felt himself aggrieved by the system at
improvement of feeling that had recently taken place among present pursued by the Post-office, it would give as little trots-
the sub-sorters. It was represented that a memorial had been b_l
ost- office, and he (Mr. Cardwell) would undertake to sap
to send a letter to the Treasury, or to the authorities at the
got up among the sub-sorters to the Lords of the Treasury, r
expressing thanks at the improvement made in their remu-
that the representations from such a letter would be attended
neration, and declaring that they had no parti ipation in the to. Hear, hear.) He would not stand there and say that
calumnious placards and statements that had been put forth in such a case as that instanced by the Hon. Member for Fins..
reference to the management of affairs in the Post-office. Now bury had never existed ; but he would say with confidence,
the letter he had received gave the true particulars of this, and that the superior officers of the .Government were always open
denied that this step was taken by any member of the sub- to receive any communications, and ever ready to put a period
to stub mal-practices as those alluded to by the lion. Member.
after
sorterit was s, but t
got uphat it w
itas
was sent rby
ound only
for a fsignatures, few
when days
He (Mr. Cardwell) could not understand how any one could
after the strongest representations 25 signed out of 70. This rise in that Ilouse to answer matters of which they had had no
very much excited Mr. Robert Kelly, and a sub•sorter of previous notice, otherwise than as he had done—natuelo,, by
the nsme of Roberts, was charged, in consequence, with stating that the Government would be always found anxious
to terminate such abuses. Now, having so far disruosed of the some mal-practice. It was proved, however, that Roberts was
not guilty of the charge, though at the time Mr. Betonell, one early delivery, he would venture to turn to that whieh formed
of the officers of the establishment, threatened to kick ten or the grae'emen of the Hon. Member's chargo—namely, the
a dozen of them out •of it.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing would " Post-office Directory." He would explain what this "Di-
give satisfaction but the app ointment of a Committee of in- rectory" was, and than give a short sketch of its history.
vestigation. There were many other subjects in relation to this Having dune so, he would proceed to meet the charges of the
topic that might be referred to, and a good deal might be said Hon. Member. The fact was that the metropolis was divided
in the way of remedy. A great deal might be done in the into a great number of wards for letter-carriers, and the House
latter respect if they did away with the whole system of fees would readily admit, that an absolute necessity existed for the
for early delivery. According to this system, a letter-carrier Post-office authorities having correct information of the names.
went on to the establishment at 20s. a week ; then he was in- of persons whom the letter-carriers would have to serve. 'sic
creased to 235. ; and, in the course of a few years, he was re- would ask, how was this information to be collected, esscept-
duced to I4s , the salary to be made up by the fees arising from ing by each letter-carrier within his own district? It so hap--
early delivery. Now, he knew that in some districts nened, and he had no doubt it would be made a fee:cure in the
the system of early delivery was done away with ; -debate, that the forms used in the Post-office had a heading,
"
still it remained intact in many others, and those The Post-office Directory." Of course it was not essential
parties who could not give security for the early de- to the business of the Post-office, that there should be such a
livery of letters had to su mit to a reduced salary of 14s.— heading to the forms, but it was absolutely necessary, he con-
(Hear, hear.) They ought to consolidate the general and tended, that the names should he so collected by the letter.-
district departments of the establishment, so as to make but carriers. There were certain officers in the Post-office, closig•••
one department • and as they had the power to use any of nated check-takers, and there were twenty letter-carriers under
the trains on the railways for the carrying of letters, they each check-taker, The check-taker had to hand over to
could bring them as often as they might think fit, and they his superior the number of names handed in by
could be delivered with what was now called the district de- each letter-carrier—that superior filling the same situation
livery, at the same time taking care that due remuneration which Mr. Kelly now held. This was information which musg
was paid the deliverers, with a gradually increasing scale for be collected as it was now, unless they wished to destroy the
service for the years employed. The letter-carriers ought also existence of the " Post-office Directory" altogether. He
in due course to be allowed to take the sub-sorters' place. would now, with the permission of the House, proceed very
The whole thing should be placed on a better footing ; and if shortly to trace the history of the publication which had been
a Committee were given him, and practical men—not men so often referred to. A Mr. Sparkes, who held a situation in
interested in the prevalent abuses—examined, he had no the Post-office, thought that
hi he was in possession of information
t
doubt a plan by which the system could be remedied might o wch others could not lay claim, namely, the names of
those who were at that time in business in London. This was
be suggested. The early delivery, in his opinion, ought to be
done away with. The Post-office was established for the be. was some century ago, and Mr. Sparkes applied to the Post-.
nefit of the general public, and not for a small party.—( Hear, master-General of that day for permission to publish a
hear.) One system should be made to work the same for all. Directory, which was granted. Mr. Crichett succeeded to
He knew of a casein which a carrier took up the late and early Mr. Sparkes, and the work was published under the authority
delivery at the same time, going up the street, of the Postmaster-General, and so continued until the year
delivering the early letters for the privileged parties, 1836, when Mr. Critchett died, and Mr. Kelly succeeded to
and delivering the late letters as he came down. the office which he now held. Mr. Kelly wished to continue
He would go up in the same house in Chancery-lane and de- the publication of the Directory, but Lord Litchfield, who
liver the early letters on the first and second floors, and though was then at the head of the department, thought it right to
he had the letters of the party who was on the third floor, consult the Solicitor-General upon the matter, as there were
because he happened to be a late delivery man, the letter- some arrangements to be entered into between the widow of
carrier would cary off his letters at a later part of the day Mr. Critchett and his successor. After consulting with the
when he came down the street. Now, this proceeding, in- legal officer of the Crown, an arrangement was entered into by
dependent of its injustice, was against Act of Parliament, whieh Mr. Kelly paid a sum of money to the widow of Mr.
and ought not to be allowed. But the great complaint, above Critchett, and so stood in the position in which that gentleman
all others, and that which required investigation, was, that as was placed in regard to the Directory. That art angement
this was a public department of the Government it ought not having been effected, a very great amount of expense was in-
to be used for the private interest of parties. In the returns curred in the publication. The name of Mr. Robson had been
for which he (Mr. Duncombe) had moved, setting forth the mentioned in connexion with the work, and some severe anim-
emolument and salaries of officers of the establishment, the sa- adveraions had been made against Mr. Kelly in respect of Mr.
lary of Mr. Kelly was put down at 320/. a-year , and in that Robson's death, from the pressure of distress. He (""i Card`,
return Mr. Kelly said that on his appointment, in 1836, he well) was not aware that Mr. Kelly had been thstii27l ts;„,btob
purchased the copyright of the Post-office Directory, in which that bad been as far back. s__
he had embarked a large private property, and in publishing
which he had been supported by official resources. Mr. time a Committeese
is;of
st-othffi'soe. a Homuse
th'ehadlast sat on
the subject of
fn
Hon. Member had moved for certain
Kelly said that the total difference in the expenditure and re-
ofturns Parliamentrelative to that department, and in these returns cer-
ceipts of the Directory in 1844 was 1,2761; 4s. 7d, ; he did not
fainre sums of money had been entered by Mr. Kelly, as the
say whether profit or loss, but he merely mentioned
sums received by him as the produce of the Directory. The
1,276 L That statement Mr. Dineen was prepared to prove
was untrue, and that the profits of the Directory was not less
correctness of that sum had been questioned, however, by the
than 10,0001. a year. If they granted him (Mr. Duncombe)
Hon. Member for Finsbury, who stated that he was prepared to
the Committee, he would prove that instead of 1,2761. Mr. prove that a much larger sum had been received. He (Mr.
Kelly received from 12,000/. to 15,000.1. a year. This sum
Cardwell) had instituted inquiries into the subject, and from,
was received; by Mr. Kelly, or certain parties connected with the information furnished by Mr. Beckenham and others
him on the establishment. This was no error, but a wilful and was perrectly satisfied that the correct sum had been returned,'h
e
deliberate fraud to mislead this House and the public, and and he did not think that that sum was in any degree too large
if they shielded the delinquency, there was no use whatever in considering the capital embarked, the amount of labour
moving for returns on any subject. He did not see, on required, and allowing a fair remuneration to the publisher.
sideration of honor or interests of the public,
hadho.Now there was one other circumstance to which he would call.
avoid granting the Committee after what hesawid. they
lfeeoltoulnlrd-. the attention of the House, but to which he would only shortly
Kelly was called to the bar and examined, he (Mr. Duncombe) advert, The Hon. Member for Finsbury, said that the delay
was i
was prepared to prove this. What use
there in asking for n the post delivery, was to be mainly ascribed to the employ-
returns if sach returns as these were made, The other night ment of letter-earriCrs'in obtaining information for the Directory.
an error in the tariff was attributed to Mr. M'Gregor, and it The Hon. Gentleman had said the publication of the Di-
was urged that a Committee of Inquiry should be granted, rectory delayed the delivery of the public letters. Certainly
but it Was found that the matter was a typographical no such delay ought to take place ; and he, for one, believed it
error, and the matter was dropped- if returns did not. The Hon. Gentleman, however mentioned a parti-
were to be considered merely waste paper, let them say cular case where delay had occurred • but the Hon. Gentle-
so, and he would not take any trouble in asking for them, but man was wrong in his prediction of the cause of the delay.
if they intended to act fairly and justly in this department of The Hon. Gentleman complained that the publication of the
the public service, they ought to grant him what he sought. last Directory occasioned a delay of ten days in the deli-
The great malepractices and abuses which existed ought to he very of the letters which came part of the way from India,
remedied, or at least inquired into. The statement he had by the Great Liverpool, but he (Mr. Caldwell) suggested to
submitted showed that tyranny, injustice, and oppression pre- the Hon. Member whether it was not quite impossible this
veiled, producing a state of great dissatisfaction, endangering mild be so. The Postmaster-General and his secretary were
the commercial interests of the country. What state would open to all parties who had grievances of this nature to com-
this great commercial town be placed in if no letters were de- plain of, and he was quite confident if any such delay had
livered far one day; and thatsuoh a step had been contemplated, taken place there would have been no lack of remonstrances
and might yet be taken if such tyranny and injustice continued; from the influential parties in the City, who were in the habit
he was persuaded from information which he had received. This of receiving letters by the Indian mail. He happened to be
all arose out of what he. designated a gross job, for such he acquainted with the circumstances of this partieular case of
considered the " Pest-office Directory" to be. The whole delay, and if the Hon. Gentleman would permit tuna to do
place ought to lie placed on a new footing, and if the Com- so, he would tell him what really did occur. The.
it took the
mittee %stitch he sought was appointed, he had no doubt some the letters of the Great Liverpool were so wet t
plan would come out of it which would satisfy the public, and servants of the Post-office a very consideraohdlebt'haet,
be admitted that
satisfy all parties concerned therein.—( Hear, hear.) The carefully separating and sorting them ;
and
as ten days, did
Honourable Gentleman concluded by moving for a " Select some delay, though by no means so muchor 'indeed, in
Committee to inquire into the allegations of the petition of Mr. take place before they were ready
l_ f
Jonathan Duncan, on the mal-administration of affairs in the explanation had been givene
was
not aware that
General Post-office." in the matter,
himself
a I padretileivseryin. tereTstheids
Mr. WILLIAMS rose to second the motion. He knew the any one of them had and h
isnolou
same
r es
alight
into after
expressedHon.Gentleman, after expressing his
dissatisfied with it.—
gentleman whose name was appended to the petition on which (Hear, ha-.)
yet ght change
the Hon. Member for Finsbury had founded his motion, and regret that this silabljltecesteshsaiedur
rettubaereknedfutibl
he believed him to be a person of the highest honour, and the
mace in
on the very morning of the day when it was
quite incapable of making any statement which he did not think had dt:.accrisniaadn of
the situation of the sub-sorters, whose sala-
he was folly able to substantiate. A charge had been brough ries were raised
would bring forward his motion. But he (Mr.
forward by his Hon. Friend, into which this House could not thought lee
refuse an inquiry. It they did otherwise, they proclaimed to Cardwell) assured the Hon. Gentleman that the Board of
the country that public servants were justified by Government Treasury, in taking this step, were in no degree influenced by
in the commission of a fraud on public property. There was the anticipated motion of the Hon. Member. Another of the
a charge that pubhc property had been used for Hon. Gentleman's complaints was,
the privatethat the communications
interests of this individual, and he (Mr. Williams) said that were made to Mr. Kelly by the deliverers in official hours;
by a gentle- and the Hon. Gentleman wh secondedthe motion followed
o
Such a charge as this could not be made, especially .
collecting the required information
the Hon. Member occasioned considerable delay in the delivery of let-
forman who was so entitled to be heard as the petitioner, and this up, by declaring that
when that petitition, too, was presented by
Both Honourable Gentlemen, however, were perhaps
's
Finsbury, who could always command
. the attention of the tors.
ible to carry on the
House, without the Government's acceding to the motion. He unaware of the fact that, whether Mr. Kelly Directory
officers collecting the
( \lr. Williams) believed that .there was no department con- were published or not, it would be impos .
business of the Post-office without its
netted with the Government that required more looking after
than the Post-office. There had been a time, indeed, when information which it contained.—(Hear, hear.) Another
the Post-office had been looked up to for the correctness with statement made in the petition, and one which had some colour

tt nth was, that the sorters were sometimes employed upon
the Directory at the office of Mr. Kelly. This was formerly
the case, but it was not so now. But even then it was
optional with the sorters to perform or refuse the services,
while, if they consented, they were remunerated for what they
did.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had expressd a
hope that ere long the subject would come under the serious
consideration of the authorities ; and, perhaps, it would be gra-
tifying to the lion. Gentleman to know that the subject had
already been carefully looked into by the lawteabntdbperessnerntetrPs oasntd-
master-General ; and it was now optional
it
deliverers to engage themselves or not in collecting informa-
tion for the Directory. But both the Noble Lords at the head
of the department were decidedlyeconvin
por-
tion
tke deliverers' and sorters duty tcoedcoltlheactt theit
w ainsfaorni
a-
b itself.
on for the purposes of the office Believienrrgo,ntheoeuns,,tahuadt
ti e information of the Hots. Gentleman was
that while the heads of the Post-office department were open
directly to appeals to remedy abuses,
made, he thought it was a sufficientu no such appeals had been
guarantee that neither the
Treasury nor the Post-office ceauthorities were deserving of
censure ; and he, therefore, hoped the House would negative
the motion of the Hon, Gentleman.
Mr. MOFFATT supported the motion for an inquiry. It
was a matter of fact that individuals residing in London did
not receive their letters in the morning till many hoursafter
they might be delivered, if there was a proper system of manase e-
ment of the Post-office. He could not see how his Right
Hon. Friend opposite could have any grounds
of the Committee. lie should have cone
Member for
that if
the abuses complained of by his Hon Furioenn.d the Members
opposite
Finsbury did not exist, his Right
0_
Inquiry
appointed
should be anxious to have the Committee f
ght be tuaee
so that the groundlessness of the charges mi
He himself felt no
asked
for
manifest.—( Hear, hear )
eawhtenatmat
or
doubt that the
re
public would feel much satiosof6aedtteinotniyifa=lp Committee
the great
were granted. It watshec post-office departmu
denhtwhe
been
change took place
facts laid before the
the glaring abusesinw.hich
etahreend,eftniedthwe ol
after all it app greater
hich had
moved,
bbytt-thetio.
existed,lran
for
thrati nevbeunr the 't
evilsatt. the
have been so removed had it not been
portion of them still fisted,
made to the Pest-office
been removed would uot
1 rsthat appeared in the different newspapers,
for the many complaints that had been
of the restoration of the revenue
authorities, the .ette
&c. One of the main. grounds
represented at the time that the great change that took place
-e the Post-office was the great increase of facilities which
would i
be afforded to the public in the
delivery of their letters.
And still, it appeared that almost the whole of the old delays
existed as heretofore, and would continue to exist if the public
voice was not raised in a manner too strong to be resisted by
the Post-office authorities. He found that after some of the
old delays and abuses which existed in the Post-office, with re-
gard to the delivery of letters in the metropolis had
been removed, in consequence of the loud and continued com-
plaints of the public there was an increase of letters delivered
by the letter-carriers in London alone, in the following
year of 1,800,000; being an increase of nearly fifty per cent.
and there was scarcely a town where there had been increased
facilities in the delivery of letters where there had not been a
corresponding increase. But still there was a general com-
plaint throughout the kingdom that the Post-office authorities
were exceedingly slow in their operations ; and,
n. They had
in his
opinion,
they had a perfect right to make such complaits
at present in London the old system of twopenny po:taee which
and
caused a vast outlay and waste of money,which proved
anything but efficient. If the Post-office were properly
b
managed, letters that were to
o'clock
delivered in the morning, should
be delivered before nine
they within even four miles of the
City, whereas at present were not delivered before half-
past ten Then there was the absurd regulation as to the
limitation. of weight to be carried by the Post-office, the weight
being at present limited to fifeeen ounces, than which
nothing could be more ridiculous. There were also many
other abuses which might be brought to light before
a Committee of the House. There was one regulatien
about the superannuation of the sub-sorters, who were com-
pelled to subscribe to a superannuation fund. That he be-
lieved was also another of Mr. Kelly's regulations. No ac-
count was delivered to the subscribers of the sum in hand on
their account. When their late treasurer died, they expected
a very large sum would have been on hand, but when they ap-
plied to Mr. Kelly they were informed that there was no more
than 701. available for the purposes for which it had been sub
scribed. The Post-office was managed in a slovenly way, and
he had no doubt that if a Committee were appointed the result
would be a very material improvement—(Hear, hear)—because
he was quite satisfied that some of the allegations made by the
Hon. Member for Finsbury were true, and capable of proof.
He could say more upon this subject, but, not wishing to detain
the House, he would content himself by simply stating in con
elusion that he most cordially supported the motion of the Hon.
Member for Finsbury.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. PROTHEROE said that the House and the country
should know more than they did at present of the operations of
Mr. Kelly, who, it appeared, employed by contract the greater
portion of those engaged in the metropolitan Post-office. From
the statements made by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, it ap-
peared that the:letter. earriers were employed twelve hours in
the day, and that it was impossible for him to deliver the
letters put into his charge earlier than he did. Their re-
muneration, too, it appeared was exceedingly low, and they
received remuneration from parties to whom they delivered
in the better walks of the,.metropolis, with the sanction of
the Post-office authorities ; in fact, their salaries were re-
duced in consideration of those perquisites. He thought that
much good would result from the inquiry which might take
place before the Cornmitteee.
Mr. BROTHERTON was glad to have this opportunity
of publicly complaining of the gross abuses which existed in
the Post-office. He found that they had sent down into
Manchester a number of agricultural labourers as letter-car-
riers—men that could scarcely either read or write, and
who further knew nothing about the streets of Manchester.
The consequence was, that several mistakes had occurred in
the delivery of the letters.—(Hear, hear.) This was one of
the many abuses which at present existed in the Post-office,
and he hoped that the House would give every facility to the
carrying out of the motion of the Hon. Member for Einsbury.
Mr. CHRISTIE believed that there was an impression very
prevalent in the minds of the public, that there existed a most
pitiful jobbery in the disposal of the Post-office patronage, and he
also believed that no one could gainsay the fact that the
abuses in that department were exceedingly great. If the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite really felt that there was no
ground for the allegations of the Hon. Member who had
made the motion now before the House, what objection could
he have to the appointment of the Committee sought fur?
'fhe Right lion. Members on the Treasury benches seemed to
be jealous of the Hon. Member for Finsbury ou this occasion.
It appeared that the individuals employed in the Post-office
had, instead of waiting upon them, presented their memorial
to the Hon. Member for Finsbury, praying him to de his ut.
most to remove the abuses of which they complained. The
Hon. Member for Finsbury had made specific charges against
certain parties connected with the Post-office, in reply to
which the Right Hon. Gentleman said, " lam informed that
those charges are not true ;" but let that Right Hon. Gentle-
man 'ay who was his informant.—(Hear, hear.) During the
speech of his Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, he (Mr.
Christie) observed the Chancellor of the Exchequer leave his
place very often, and go down to parties who sat on the cross
benches by the privilege of the House, who, for all he (Mr.
Christie) knew, were Mr. Kelly and the other officials of the
Posts office.—(Hear, hear.) Now, if the Post-office were
carried on in so praiseworthy and immaculate a manner as had
been represented, what objections could the Right Hon. Gen-
tlemen on the Treasury benches have to the appointment of
the Committee, which would, if their statements were true,
clear their friends of the Post-office from the allegations of the
Honourable Member for Finsbury? The public were
entitled to have a most searching inquiry insti-
tuted into the truth or otherwise of the allegations.
made that night against the Post-office authorities. It had
been stated that such an inquiry had been instituted, but none
of that evidence had been published, and how were the public
to know the manner in which the parties examined were cross-
examined, &c. In reply to the allegation of his Hon. Friend
as to the mal-practices in the delivery of letters in the neigh-
bourhood of Chancery-lane, the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site S-id that as som as the facts were made known to the
Post-office authorities they were removed, but it was under the
fostering care of the Post-office authorities themselves that
those mal-practices had sprung up ; and he, therefore, conceived
that the whole management of the Post-office should be in•
quired into and remodelled. He considered that all the letter-
carriers had to do was to deliver letters as they were directed.
lie considered that private enterpfse would be sufficient to col-
lect the requisite informationn contained in the Directory. He
could not conceive hew the parties implicated in these alle-
gations could hold up their heads if they did not come forward
and ask this House to inquire into the matter complained of.
Mr. F. BARING said the real question for the consideration
of the House was not the necessity of instituting an icquir)
into the general management of the Post-office, but for the
appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the
allegati, ns of the petition. There was no allegation in that
p tition relating either to early or late delivery, or to the
necessity of having two different sets of letter-carriers. Many
of the suggestions thrown out by lion. Members were no doubt
very good. He never knew any public office in which im-
provements might not be n.rd.,, and he would be glad to see
the Post-office authorities introduce any beneficial alterations.
He was glad to see the improvemen's lately introduced in the
delivery of the Brighton letters, by which the town of
Brighton was brought within the range of twopenny post.
From a return lately made to that Housillie_appeared that
many considerable additions had heen macre=flie Post-office
establishment, the increased labours having rendered
necessary
increased assistance.
With reference to the alle-
gations contained in the elisiongreat doubt of the
expediency of leaving a work, liu'keee
1 hadse e Directory" in the
hands of private individuals
much very valuable and necessary vedthat
it
cuntained
information. work, however, should. be taken out of Mr. Kelly's If the
c niidered that gentleman was entitled to a e hands,pe he
He thought that the statement of the Secretary of the Tnsatinn.
Mr. Cardwell, was worthy of some consideration ; hirseast'nreY'
talents were not merely denials; they had locked over the boaotk;
of Mr. Kelly, in corroboration et his statements The
Honourable Member for Coventry stated that
the character of the Honourable Member
for Finsbury stood very high, but he (Mr. Baring)
did not consder that, however high might be the character of
any Hon. Member, he should upon that ground attack the
character of gentlemen who had been for a sumber of years
good public servants. He saw no reason whatever from the
statements of the Hcn. Member for Finsbury for inquiry into
the alleged charges. He thought that, even in matters of mis-
conduct of public servants, the inquiry would be conducted in a
far better manner if left in the hands of the heads of the Go-
vernment, than if attempted to be inquired into by Hon.
M =hers of that House.
Mr. WA KLEY had been considering in his own mind what
would be the probable course of conduct pursued by those
parties
who had been connected with official duties, upon aquestion relating to the misconduct of a public officer.
He had always found that when any complaint was brought
against a public officer, members connected with the
Govert m .nt, sitting upon either side, spoke and voted to-
gether. Hon. itleilibe: on his side of the Honse seemed to
think that if the present inquiry was granted it might, per-
haps, go back to the period in which they were in office.
He considered it absurd to call the statement made by the S
s r taxies of the Treasury a satisfactory answer; an
iafnstsia
answer
it might be, but a refutat'on it certainly was not.
House failed to inquire into such allegations asthose con-
tained in the petition, the functions of the Parliament, as
the inquests of Vie people, would be immediately at an end.
The people of Eugland would not consider that their r, pre en-
tatives had faithfully performed the duties devolved up( a them
if they were to rest satisfied with such a reply as they
had heard from the Government. He was in the habit of re-
ceiving many thousands of letters in the course of the day, and
he had scarcely to make one complaint in the course of the
year. He considered the duties connected with the Postesffice
to be laborious, difficult, and intricate. He thought it was a
wonderful, most astonishining institution, and no person could
reflect upon the exactness and punctuality of the business
without being struck with astonishment at the wonderful man-
ner in which the duties were performed. He believed the
" D rectory" to 1:y'o most invaluable to the public. He should
regret to see it discontinued, and he only regretted that any
person connected with the
publication
of that work should be
disagreeable a circumstance as that which had
Implicated in so disagree .
,
given rise to the present discussion. —( Hear, hear.) Charges
however, of a most serious had
character. a been brought against
the heads of the Post-office. Great numbers of the subordi.
nates had been to his Hon. Colleague, and had made
Could
ost
complaints to him of tyrannical usage.
House, then, refuse to accede to the inquiry ? His Non.
Col-
leage had moved for a return some time since, from which it
appeared that the income of a gentleman connected with the

"Directory" was 1,2761., whereas he (Mr. Duncombe) had
stated, that if the Committee was granted, he should be able
to provethattheininctohmee
pwraessennott
caseless thcaantnelo,fooonrwla.
The petitioner
but upon
as a person having received private injuries, thatpublic
purely public grounds, and states in his petition
_his
rad,yenaro.t
Hon. Colleague was not acceded to, the people
property was used for private purposes. if the motionwnnld of
think
Govern-
that to serve a certain purpose connected with the
emnottaiohnnuhladdrbefeuesne raenfused.
reasonableHe was
aostuinrnpr._isediath_at the
mGeonytertnhme
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
the Hon. Member who had just sat down
a any Non. Member connected with that House made
had stated thatid when
any
Parliament to inquire into the circumstances, state-
ment of misconduct of any public officer it was the
that an officer in
at a t dutye d
a s an
initanee of the necessity of that inquiry
gso
was 1,200/. y f rbom
ruset h e s
the
of the " Directory"
a deiatrt'o be 12,0004, there •
the Post-office had stated that his income. arising
Hon. Member for Finsbury had state.
W kle ) was too well
Member ( r. a y
thought the Hon.
trade not to perceive at once
fore we should institute an inguiu y into the subject. He
exaggeration in the statement the proba-
bilitythat if there was an i
dhate been upon the side of the larger
was that it when],
acquainted with the bookselling
experience in the bookselling trade he
amount. From
be
be content with a mere denial. The
Hon Members were to
thought such wouldshis conclusion. He further asked whether
the report of to o persons who had been ap-
pointed statement of his Hon. Friend, the Secretary of the Treasury,
was founded upon
to examine the books of Mr. Kelly, the result of that
examination being that the statements of Mr. Kelly were es-
sentially correct. He would ask, what better course could be
adopted to inquire into the truth of any statement or transac-
tion other than had been adopted in the present case? He had
said what was perfectly true, they executed the most laborious
duties in the most wonderful manner. But when he made
that admission that it was not to-day or yesterday, but through
a long period of time, when the modes of conveyance were
daily changing, that these exertions were satisfactorily carried
out, he con.idered that the Hon. Gentleman. in his own
statement, implied a contradiction of his case, that the whole
department was in a state of distraction and rebellon—ready to
strike—in order to prevent the delivery of letters. The Hon.
Gentleman must have been convinced that the fact of the
manner in which these complaints were made was an answer
to the greater part of them. It w; s a very popular
doctrine that when a complaint was made that the
Holm of Commons were bound to inquire into it ;
but they ought not to admit the doctrine in the fullest sense to
which it could be strained; but that when all other means
were exhausted, then it should be competent to apply to the ,
House of Commons. The letter-carriers had a noor open, to
them, to have their grievances redressed, and the facts aseer-
t lined. It was not probable that they had been afraid to apply
to Lord Lonsdale or Lord St. Germans Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Duncombe.) He believed the allegation that they
were afraid was without foundation; at least there could be no
fear on their part in bringing their complaints under the cog-
nisance of the Treasury. His Hon. Fliers] had stated that if
any malversatien had taken place in the department, that the
Treasury were always open to listen to complaints. If the
House granted a Committee on every complaint which W.t3
made to it, they would draw upon thenneves an endless
labour. The Hon. Member for Portsmouth had so fully de-
fended the conduct of those who were principally en-
gaged in the business of this department that it would
not be necessary for him to add anything to it. His
knowledge was more intimate than his, for he bad
never seen Mr. Bottenham, but he knew that he
carried with him the respect of all that knew him, or had any
dealings with him. They had a proof of it in the testimony
of the Hon. Gentleman. He had earned the respect of per-
sons coming into the department without any prepossession
whatver. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would not
enter intothe general merits of the Post-office ; he said there
had been more delay than necessary in earn sag into execution
the improvements decided on, but great improvements were
going on from day to day, and if there had been latterly some
delay, it arose simply from the fact of the large accumulation
of letters, which had rendered some large additions to the Post-
offie, but those enlargements were now completed, and the de-
iay would consequently cease. He considered that he had said
enough upon the motion before the House, and he thought
they would be hardly inclined to embark in an investigation
where even there was no allegation that the proper mode of
redress had been attempted. If the House adopted the
principle of inquiring into whatever an individual might state
connected with his department, without in the first place
giving an opportunity to the responsible Government of the
country to inquire into the subject, he could see no limit to
the Committees which the House might appoint, and if there
was no other reason for opposing the motion, he confessed that
would be sufficient to his mind.
Mr. B. ESCOTT—Reference had been made to an inquiry
which had taken place at the Post-office some years ago. His
recollection of what passed then was, that he never heard a
more intelligent or honest witness than Mr. Bottenham. There
was at that time a very strict inquiry made into the regulations
of the Post-office, and so satisfied were the Comm t'ee with
the management, and the fair dealing of the persons connected
with the different departments, that those who were most hos-
tile at the commencement of the inquiry, were most ready in
making a favourable report. Though he honoured the Hon.
Member for Finsbury for his advocacy of the injured, it did
appear to him that he had not a good cause to contend with,
seeing that it was only a squabble between a newspaper editor
and a conductor of a Post-office Directory, who thought proper
to blame Mr. Kelly. He had no doubt that if an inquiry were
granted, it would lead to no good result ; and if it were re-
sisted, he would vote against it, bearing in mind the result of
the former one, of which he had been a member. In fine, he
considered that it was unworthy the character of the House in
a dispute, which, after all, was only one between a newspaper
editor and the proprietor of a Post-office Directory.
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE said he had no doubt that Mr.
Bottenham was a most intelligent witness, and it was because
that he considered him so that he wished very much to have
him, and he should very much like to have the Hon. Member
himself, examined, to state what he knew of the regulations
of the Post-office ; and with respect to this being a mere
squabble between a newspaper editor and the proprietor of a
Directory, the Hon. Member could not have heard his
• statements. He could not have heard the allegation that, only
for the private business of Alr. Kelly, letters would be de-
, livered an hoer and a half earlier. It was no light
matter that when returns had been ordered by that
House, that they should be made false. But all that was
nothing; it was all merely a Post-office squabble. If this were
pesmitted, it would be perfectly childish in the House to move
for such returns, when they were to be falsified. He did not
wonder at the course taken by the Honourable Gentleman.
Why, the first was, that it was the duty of public men, both
present and past, to screen public delinquency. If they con-
sidered that he could not prove his charges, they would
jump at the opportunity his motion afforded them to obtain
praise, but it was because they felt confident that errors
did exist, that they refused this inquiry. When
charges were made against the Poor-law
Commissioners, why did they not say to them, Go to the offi-
cers, before you come to us."--(Hear, hear.) He said before
what he would again repeat, that he believed that every allege-
t ion in that petition was true. Would their slighting it satisfy
the public? The Right Hon. Gentleman himself admitted
that he considered that a better arrangement might be effected.
When the packet list was published at the Post-office, it was
resolved that it should be published at the lowest possible rate,
and that the profit, if any, should be carried to the revenue.
This proceeding had been carried into effect. Now let the
Post-office Directory" be treated in the same manner,
and if it can be published at 12s. 6,1., instead of
thirty shillings, let the public have the benefit of it, or let it
be published at the latter price, and let the amount of profit
go to remunerate the poor Post-office subordinates. Ile did
his duty in presenting the petition, and calling the attention
of the House to the subject, and he now left it to the House
to decide between himself and the Right Hon. Baronet,
whether or not the Committee should be granted.
The House then divided, when the numbers were,
For the motion 49
Against it
Majority —43
IRISH RAILWAY BILLS
On our re admission to the gallery, we found
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN moving, that with a view to dimi-
nish the inconvenience and expense now incurred in carrying
through Parliament Bills for the construction of railways in
Ireland, it is expedient that, in the case of Irish Railway Bills,
all such inquiries as are now conducted in London by Com-
mittees of both Houses of Parliament, should, after the termi-
nation of the present session, take place in Ireland. The ex-
penditure of the last and the present session, with respect to
the conduct of private Bills through that House, was such as
to make every one in Ireland dissatisfied with the present mete
of procedure. The enormous expense, inconvenience, and
delay which resulted from the system of discussing the merits
of private Bills before Committees of that House, was so great
as to necessitate a change like that which he proposed. The
expenses incurred by bringing witnesses from every part of Ire-
land, engaging counsel, agents, and other persons in
this country, would be entirely obviated; but it
was not a question of expense merely, it was a
ques'ion of convenience. He found that in the last session of
Parliament the Bills which were introduced on the 10th of
February did not receive the Royal Assent till the `2lst of
July, a period of four or five months, and the general result
notwithstanding the delay was a most enormous expenditure.
He should be glad if the Hon. Baronet would lay before the
House the different memorials he had received on the subject.
He would ask the English Members if they were satisfied with
the manner in which the Railway Bills were conducted. It
was impossible that so many Bills could be investigated
Pyres4ngtreseatss. ionxieamnbdertshenflatrautr
properly. They amounted: to over seven hundred in the
HimenpsoesewderuepotnakAelnemawbaeyrsfrwomas
their higher duties and sent for days and weeks to sit on Rail-
way Committees, whereas th
the discharge of more
oeytoan.t functions. He did not be-
might be better employed in
ev e that Ambre were bound to sit on Com-
mitteesfe privaterle a of
t al
sl Thereu nothing to compel them
to do so mere than a mere resolliscn of that House, and he
should doubt that such a resolution
authority in that
was strictly binding
tailoluhsee.shoHueldenhuelad see n
r itsosotatedbysomehigh
difficulty in allowing the Railway
Bills of Ireland to be conducted by Committees in that country.
He thought the
to b
eGovernment might appoisit a Commission of
five
Taer to be civil and military ns
n acounsel of high legal character,
and
gtheneteolt
he
'edged scientific
They could report to the (10.
vernment, and the parties could then
to that House. If the House should bentitled to an appeal
would then be for including all classesadopt of Irish private Bills in
the qualification of the Commission.
Mr. F. FRENCH seconded the motion. He considered
that the expenditure incurred in carrying Bills for public works
in Ireland should be spent in that country. It was an amount
of some consequence ; for he found that the expenses of even
an unopposed Bill came as high as seven or eight hundred
pounds, and such expenditure was taken from Ireland ; and,
at the same time, the parties were put to great
inconvenience by having to attend the carrying
of the Bills through Committee in this country.
The Hon. Member then went into a detailed description of
the operation of the Grand Jury Act. He said, if it was de-
termined on that the existence of a road was necessary, the ap-
plication was laid before the grand jury, and then the county
surveyor w:s called uron to decide which VIPS the best line of
road, 'and to lay it out, and then his Ilan was to be submitted
to a future toad sessions, and in that way the fiscal business of
the country was carried on. But with regard to the fiscal
business of the country generaly, he begged to observe that it
was carried on for the great part by Hon. Members from Ire-
land, who were obliged to attend their Parliamentary duties
here algo, and in illustration 0f.% hich he would just state that,
since the present session commenced, he had been obliged to
cross the Channel four times ; while here, the duties were dis-
charged in a different manner. Well, then he would wish to
call attention next to the enormous expense to which the Irish
people were put in endeavouring to carry a railway ; and he
felt assured he did not exaggerate when he stated that the Par-
liamentary expenses
alone of the smallest line in Ireland could
not be less than 20,000/. In
the first place, the parties were
put to a great deal of expense in the House of Lords that they
had not to encounter in the House of Commons. In the case
of standing orders alone the parties had to come over here and
then go back to Ireland and come here again, and then go
back again ; and so on, again and again, in the
most
thus the most unnecessary and annoying manner—an
ex-
pense was most unnecessarily increased. He knew of one in-
stance recently where the parties had passed the House of
Commons' standing orders, and when they went up to the
House of Lords they had to remain threc weeks before they
were heard. He contended, then, that all the difficulties had
been thrown in tho way by the House of Lords,and that there was

no more real necessity for bringing the parties over here upon a
railroad than there was upon a grand-jury road, for that the
same parties were as capable of judging of one as of the other.
He begged leave to second the motion.
Sir R. PEEL said it was quite clear that the House was
prepared for the discussion of the question introduced by the
Hon. Member, and there were several motions already before
the House upon the subject. But in reference to the railroad
question, he begged to remind the Hon. Member that the Trio-
lion he intended to make on Thursday would be to the effect
that unless a certain number of scripholders agreed to the. car-
rying on of a railway scheme, it ought not to be carried on.
—( Hear.) But the Honourable Member had remarked
that certain persons in Ireland were as capable of
judging then of the merits of a railroad as of
the common roads ; but let him remind the Hon. Member
that was not the motion of the Hon. Member near him.
That Hon. Member proposed that the Speaker should appoint
a Commission to make inquiries in reference to railways in
Ireland, which now belonged to the House of Commons to
do. In a future session of Parliament, of course, there would
be a much less pressure on account of railways than in the
present session. The experience of the present session would
enable them to determine what course they should pursue
hereafter. It was wite clear that they ought not to sacrifice
private property unless for some public good. He thought
the House could not affirm such a proposition as that
which had been made by the Honourable Gen-
tleman—( Hear, hear)— upon such a discussion as that which
had taken place. The Honourable Gentleman would not of
course propose to give the power to a Commission of five
to legislate. Ile would not, of course, give a Commission
the power to take land. If he did not propose that, Legis-
lation by that House would atilt be necessary.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said he proposed that the matter
should be determed by a local board—the county board for
instance. He would also suggest that the Commission should re-
port to the House.

Sir R. PEEL said, the Commission would merely have to
make certain preliminary inquiries. Now, the Honourable
Gentleman should consider, that to this proposition, to make it
effective, they must have the sanction of the House of
Lords. Supposing the Commission to be appointed, there
would be no saving of expense, because the parties,
if they were not satisfied with the decision of the
Commission might appeal to the House and have the whole
matter again investigated by the House of Commons. Con-
sidering that the House was not prepared for this discussion, he
hoped the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw the motion, and
not put the House to the necessity of expressing an opinion
Ivan it. It was quite clear that it could not be assented to.
All the Government could assent to was the consideration of
the question whether certain inquiries now committed to the
House of Commons might not be transferred to a tribunal ap-
pointed by the Howe and under the control of the House, but
reserving all legi4atim to the House of Commons.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought the House was in a position to
consider the motion, and he should therefore press it.
Mr. C. POWELL thought his Hon. Friend was warranted
in pressing the motion.
Mr. WA K LEY said that there were so many drains upon
the resources of Ireland, that if the Hon. Gentleman should
press the motion he (Mr. Wakley) should support it. He,
however, thought it would be better to postpone the motion for
the present, and bring it forward at a time when the House
would be better prepared to express an opinion upon it. Ile
had the greatest objection to entrusting these matters to the
consideration of local boards, because such bodies must have
great local interests and prejudices. He must say that he could
not see how the principle advocated by the Hon. Gentleman
was to be carried into effect, but certainly, considering the ex-
penditure that took place in Ireland, and also in this country, a
stop ought to be put to the exhaustion of Ireland by ab-
senteeism.

Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON said that after the observa•

tions made by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Limerick,
and seconded by the Hon. Member for Roscommon, and agree-
ing as he did with their ♦iews, be thought himself bound to
vote for his mo.ion. He thought that some regulation should
be made to avoid many of the expenses incidental to the
manner in which the Irish railways were bronght forward
in London. A great number of witnesses were brought
forward, and the proposed arrangement would be of great ad.
vantage in diminishing the expense. He must, however, ask
the Hon. Gentleman, whether he meant the proposition to
apply to those railway schemes now before Parliament, or to
such as might be undertaken in future, becaus? he appre-
hended that very few of the Irish railways which had come
before Parliament this session were in a condition to avail

themselves of the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman if it
were carried. He thought that the House should clearly un •
derstand, whether the proposal was intended for the advantage
of future railway companies, or for those at present before the
House. He did not think that at the present late period of
the session any extensive change in the manner of bringing
forward these Bills could be of advantage.
Colonel CONOLLY sa d he was not disposed to raise any
objection to a course which had already been found to be bene-
ficial, but the lion. Member for Limerick had overlooked a
very important consideration, viz., that the greater portion of
the money invested in Ireland and Irish railways came from
England ; and as the introduction of English capital in Ire-
land was a very desirable consideration, he would be very sorry
to acquiesce in any proposal which offered any impediment to
such introduction. With respect to the course suggested by
the Hon. Member for Roscommon, he thought that such a
course would be the one most calculated to encourage discord
and trouble in Ireland.
Mr. F. FRENCH said that his Hon. Friend bad misun-
derstood the statement he had made.
Colonel CONOLLY said that he should be very sorry to
misrepresent any of his countrymen—(Laughter)—or any Hon.
Member in that House. The House had already found it
necessary to separate all parties, all locally interested, from the
consideration of the railway scheme in which they might be
concerned ; and how could it descend from that high ground,
to leave these matters for the consideration of a small district,
with the possibility of very material difference of opinion on
the subject.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL said that he thought that, on refe-
rence to the list of the shareholders in Irish railways, it would
be found that a considerable portion of the capital subscribed
was from Ireland, while there were a large number of English
names, which were merely samples of that zoological anomaly
called the stag. There was such a thing as a precedent of a
Commission in Ireland, and all that was asked for was, that
instead of taking people over from the remote parts of Ireland,
such as Donegal, Galway, and Kerry, they should constitute
seri:s of Commissions, which would hear all the evidence,
and prepare a report of it for the Parliamentary Committees.
It had been calculated that every railway Bill which had come
before the House had cost, on an average, 3,0)01. for prelimi-
nary expenses ; and if they multiplied that amount by
the number of Irish railway Bills say twenty or
thirty Bills—what an amount that would give.—(hear.)
All he asked simply was, to consider whether they would, by
commission or otherwise, endeavour to get rid of the incon-
venience of bringing people over here at the busy time of the
year—many of them men of business—and thus expending the
money out of the country. in doing this he would be benefit-
ing all classes, from the day-labourers throughout every
business and trade. It was doing great injustice to Ireland
the bringing away the money of the country to swell the
overgrown gains of this great capital. He would support the
motion of his Hon. Friend, as he considered It a just and
proper proposition.
Mr. WILLIAMS hoped, after the explanation of the Right
Hon. Baronet, that the lion. Gentleman (Mr. S. O'Brien)
would not press his motion. The Right Hon. Baronet had
expressed himself willing in any future press of railway
business to consider the propriety of taking evidence, not only
in Ireland but in other parts of the empire. That information
would suffice at present. He was anxious as any one to sup-
port measures for the benefit of Ireland, but be objected to do
so on the present occasion, because the object would be better
carried out if left to the Government, after the declaration
which the Right Hon. Baronet had made. If the Right
lion. Baronet omitted to take up the question, the lion.
Gentleman would bring it forward at another time with better
chance of success.
After a few words from Mr. FREWEN, against the
motion,
Mr. ROCHE hoped his Hon. Friend would not be induced
by the lion. Member for Coventry from abstaining from di-
viding the House. It was plain on the whole, it was never
the right time to do justice to Ireland. Whenever any pro-
position was made to benefit Ireland, some doctrine of politi-
cal economy was dug up, to show that it was not the right
time for adopting it. Ile could not see how it was that
the Right Honourable Baronet had not acceded to
the motion, as every one who acceeded to it
admitted that some interference was necessary. !Much Irish
money was spent in this country, and men of business were
delayed most inconveniently in consequence of the present
system. He called upon the Government to do something in
the matter. He protested against the putting off of the
question ; against•the demand for a long day for Ireland. He
said, that when a question of this kind was brought forward,
when all classes in Ireland had united in memorialising the
Right Hon. Baronet, it was not right or just to say that the
mode in which they wished to carry it out was not the proper
one, and he thought the onus lay with the Right Hon. Baronet
to prove that it was natural.
The CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER was under-
stood to say that he did not wish to prolong the discussion, but
he could not help thinking that the Hon. Member seemed to
suppose that a resolution of that House would be binding upon
the House of Lords. Such could not be the case, and he
thought it better that the Hon. Member for Limerick should
defer his motion.

Co!onel R A WDON said it appeared to him that the motion
was not sufficiently understood, and perhaps he might be per-
mitted therefore to read the motion as it appeared upon the
se" Tnohwat,inweittubread
ipnacopenrv.
enTiehnecemaontidonewxpaesn,
view
to
carrying diminishth o through
Parliament Bills for the construction of Railways in Ireland, it
is expedient that, in the ease of Irish Railway Bills, all such
inquiries as are now conducted in London, by Committees of
both Houses of Parliament, should, after the termination of the
present session, take place in Ireland." Now when the Right
Hou. the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared to think that
by this motion railway Legislation in Ireland would
be taken away from both Housei, he was mistaken.
He was informed by an Hon. Member beside him that in one
instance not less than thirty-gage witnesses had been kept in
town entirely, at a great ex nee and inconvenience, and he
thought that whe evidence might be taken in Dublin the
sooner it was do better.
After a few words Mr. F. FRENCH in explanation,
Mr. DILLONtiBROWNE said that it was a most impor-
tant matter thit in the present distress some understanding
should be come to on the subject.
The gallery was then cleared.
The House then divided, when there appeared,
For the motion . ............... 25
Against it
69
Mujori:y against it.
—44
POLING PLACES (IRELAND) BILL.
The House went into Committee on this Bill. The report
was ordered to be brought up this day ( Wednesday).
COMMONS INCLOSURE BILL.
The House went into Committee, and the report was or-
dered to be brought up this day.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock.
Th

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MEDICAL ItEFORM.—Monda
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aknd several other
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square Rooms on Friday last, a report of wg
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M.D., Dr. Lynch, 11. Hodson Rugg, Esq•, C.
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of
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Ntvhiethri erpeosrpteetthteontphreesptemrtzlisiv
ague and unsatisfac
for admission. Mr. Wakley moved a series of resolutions eligible
t
effect, providing also that a committee should be appointed, with that
view to obtain from the National Association a more explicit avowaltha
Of their intentions.
PRICE OF MUTTON.--We have observed paragraphs
In several journals throughout the kingdom alluding to the high Price
of mutton. We are informed by a friend, who dwells north of the
Tweed, that the scarcity of mutton in England is owing to the Scotch
farmers having retained possession of multitudes of sheep which they
usually part with long before this season, and that ere long these
animals will be poured into the English market in abundance. The
farmers, it appears, had such heavy crops of turnips last year that
they have been compelled to keep the sheep to eat them, otherwise
they must have been permitted to rot. The turnips are well nigh
consumed, the sheep have grown fatter and heavier, and will be
shortly sent forward fur consamptlon, when a reduction in tie prloo
of aallual food way be ospeeted.