The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-20 00:00:00

A ootiler OW
abolit to el,
would ifit
at pre'en4d/
aclisiois'eroi
( power, a
01°0
must„iieh
-d. ' ;
lon the Pr'Dc''e
the r,
but on
lapplied by

%Is e •
b, Penes of trial in any shape and contended that if ao
-ad' ananirnity were requir d 'it would he better that a
tesernthtter..tial should never ecOnsist of more than five
Sir JA
early "`'/IN DALRYNIPLE was anxious to taketh is
oef
tleep.portuni'y of denying the broad and bold assertionshiid
to after and and Gallant Member for Surrey, and eTti e
Lii r a good many years of experience in the army. td
htoteitattatlurlfilitteheeniraltered to meet the wishes of the people, an Representatives, but, take it as he would,
whiebt)h-e'l.t it gave a fearful power to the Government,
esti, s had only very recently made up his mind to con-
it to,ate ik few days ago he had not prevailed upon himselfto
it ra„, fro this clause in the Bill, and he only consented o
c,iot on) dire necessity.
05,,,,n,1.PEEL did not mean to contradict the Gallant
correct' (,PEEL
Beauclerk's) facts, but he would deny the
t
tinjesta," of the opinions he had delivered. It was. tn,:s
Whole '`) fatal a notion of the state of punishment in, the
t
portri,iiii.rrodycefrrotami a articular regiment ; and the Galan
nlyPshown the grossest ignoranceofwthye
the exrte"t°4 which courtstnartial acted. The reason h
mist
of
onft'f Punishment sometimes varied, when. theredje.:
eistl4
D,r";.nee was the same, was this—that in sotneo_ t
etar4
_" 'event), was necessary, in consequenceiii thelee,
had rebt'asubordination existing in it. He (Colonel Peel)
et th
cip'n the newspapers—f.r he bad not been p
Oktet
whOte--another opinion delivered by the Gallantr
M for n'eh -souther'
sue prised him-_
a",, nEAUCLERK interrupted the Hoii. Memtbaecr,
sielealed to the 1-fou.e whether this sort of at k
hert.rn, fh, opinions found in a newspaper wasfair?—
(~.
ip., ') If he did not receive justice in the Haus , he
o o'ycihere he could find if elsewhere.—(Cheers; cries piled re and much confusion.)
Ilit He `IN AL (the Chairman) immediately addressed
i
bithiirt,z,cinw:ualicsri,stsioarn Gall ant 'lieu) her tor Surrey, and
wnbh4een" he l
bre,naus.t have forgotten(uto:..
) He was
tiinetle thatilwhea
tphreesusminn.t ianedscGap
'all—nt Member had oh, jawesierlre experience in the House than lie at prese?
kiesethi ' he would be the first to feel that he had spoken )4 it'ai,"nat'l!"--(Clieers )
hieo4tl,-,;;EAUCLERK *added, that it was far from his
Poie th 0 violate the forms ..f debate. He did not sup.i:
SA ninth' House would refuse the justice to which t
colobll'ed—a(Cheers.)
Ithith I'l PEEL repeated that he had seen the opinion to
it' NI 7 referred only in the public newspapers;
___
it,,,nn,
(qtei. tat he thought he had done the Hon. an
.11; it _ .
'441,„,4 faVitUr in enabling him to contradict i . Of
it,,,,,b..nortiat he
would say generally, that if he were
14 triebrit' there was no tribunal by which be would rather
Lied A,
PolPP.ir:r4 thrells?taitPsceid*hin (‘'vaoseultdbeatLoarlld ali*vieenuttsenhaanytedin-o
to r, t' increase it. Le'
he
Horn Gentleman had said thatd ht did qintitniclainnof ' Jurors had been 'rade out, an
°il ie.. l't t,hitik it • to do so to make out a case
'ltki tLeatlon. Ifnece's try
would look to the state of
.I e.-
tt,i., ith„
~..
old they wou
, NH,' ", fifid that the people in eerier .1 oferroeiiiint.:-.
snot._ told therefore jurors could not be free
Nano)t
NI; ',here taken from the class of small farmers—( '.
~..
the t; ti:rs it was that intimidation so greatly pre' ailed. if ;,1441'1)-el.:Yere left out, the must essential pa.rt of.nt.lhoerililiuili.l
`sae t:ntered
away, and the detect would be i
ILalitLeelt•tne. One great advantage of caul. sivarptioa,l
il;:fleetiqt-nekness with which their sentences.. werehad
„411:14,,2P• Now, as to another objection which
Initlier '-", he begg.d to say :hat matters of fact
ens
not
redttb:ueb nice diserimination and keen judgu en.. .1
tteill :id' f the law sumetiniss thought t t be. necessary.riewet_
DC'ttly
it,,,, that during the present assizes, juries
.i.
waes
ie°44lkhb; Properly performing their duties,
achi,,,t.aes
the
sri Thie"al'aPPY, indeed, to hear
.that, s
ad '!teer ' "we, r, was no conclusive argumeonitdtihmat, kitti en.,t intimidated, and he, therefore, co it !di', 4e",e 'o he unnecessary.
Si,' CLAIR...Sir, t' e speech with which I deem
rellar,'",uent u„„
4 ~ 4 , .11 Me to trouble
'ell), very singular fir it shall be very short. Ni,
the H use shall in one
sd:lt:l' rit'f'tfilillsia House seem to be so link pled:: ed to the
stern''. The , Measure as his Majesty's Ministers tt em-
aln:t op, jeY,nt!ve adopted very essential and unexected
eatt.t'aiatiee
o`t,".'a clautt.e,. afte!. halvlintigietiorldl I s that
integrity
wtlaea
tiet,
bgcal to the Its provisions in a
tint
'tran .
.fficiency of the Bill, and to the restora.
h tse must impor-
t], 4,,,dire(1,41.11uy in Ireland. But if
.1. td
the Right
4, Qtbiati stions (as has been adi"te•
• byof the mea-
, ' von, qnan) do not diminish the efficacy
___.
kit tedq atbite
e cos ' were trhey not introduced before? Why were
stult:r),torxibt
at
y and now abandonedotth.s enactments per-
i vacillation tend to
bp„ti at/I lions all ? Does n - unnecessary obloquy
'bowl '4l. bras -4' 01 Lords, and bring
V'Ypset eh of the Legislature, fur having unani-
lis!aty ft Ll certain unconstitutional regulations,wthirceb.
t"."•44l'htiaavra of the Bill have now spontaneously,aniain.
111.44 that 1143 Majesty's Ministers have always
say
Sgi
klea4t of Pited, ial fomented
(to
liticnl
gitation is much 34, toe., )hy the inflammatory harangues of
the
0,4,1 ona" Yet they now exempt the latter
to
th,`4y the of these new courts, and leave thetii:,
under
th,:que, very tribunals which they declare. t•oture
which
fir'iltaw Z. °.,f in'imidation ; so that it the ino
tith.tik elia'n. 4nlah Juries b 0 a cornet one, theyare now
a the "I for the poor and leaving cobwebscoin.
th'er4tive itokiwerful agitator will escape with for. thee
'ast'talc)st Paulty, and his deluded dupeliseedxzelyeeanr . )
eddhkiy ~ Nour of an arbitrary Intv.—(
Ltise,74,l, LhaatPiii,aurrtit I am not convinced
.by thoefflieriviliedreanct,e,
n'tt n, Wn, 'ea are unwilling to bring . L -siartilc'ea's will he as reluctant to. , appear. before
ntieh,tdin.
thathelore Juries ; and his Majesty's Ministers
tin("mal in,' it is unnecessary to adhere tr)tnheewir
thr,..44iiltini`e"frti"o of extending the functions of thesecarry
lig,. liett,' °netters of a political character. I will
11141,..t thetriatiide one step further, and vote altogether
of th • I). ho se•
hirl,' t% h HE said the Noble Lord (the Ce.ialassticferlolomr
lidejoriee:quer) was misinformed as to the 1
thett'lrlovre
thwere taken in Ireland. The present assizes
tl'eto':t there the), could and wools! do their duty,
tdauktey,fraonmd
llarshe p„,e",.aa not the least necessity
them.
tile Q. Iv
.11 with which the law invested
th.C'esi,l "at
,INN had a suggestion to throw out for
t.a',4*(l .I,hian of the Noble Lord—one on which, if
thetin-s. Ir."' it Was not his intention to ground anhye
tut ,Ctsi4c,,' mat Was
that the Sergeant-at- Law should
tut
4 the Court, in preference to hits acting
might
Pr4d4tl thre'tkaten--(Hear, hear.) Perhaps it ,
4" 11:4tkt- ,aripen, that in a cross-examinati t klei, : did?
bgadge-Advocate would be ads erssee parties,*
under
Pie'r'lotnt4 think that the law of the
t'aadas4,ateY a:4,e'l's would he stated as coolly" p,,,,,d-." the bp- ‘i 0,, ht to lie. The prosecutor should
Ttsar :Pi 44 laB'etiti.gin He did not approve of the prtos:
etistrit't;',._ati °t•ietesettdi rig
'4ltit,ft 'letit 1'
;ult.-officers to sit on the court. e
t, Would necessatily be too subjeeth to
ehri.
Pink; by
~,.'" preferred that the duty should e p
v'Ss 'il '4 ah-",''tern who would not be in tear of being
, Itlii'l.l:'dt. ' l'alt. Payit list, should they not exactly do as
so k ~Atltti•
given his support
Ittils'4.l4ers CROMBY had hitherto
they.
ai.
h 1 Mae to
es,,l;Stise t nn this measure, but now the
to oppose it by,
tat a.atta, ! found it imperative on
) nd he would do it
Sat,,-4'4 aim '4 his power—(Cheers" • Power—(Cheers)—and
for its enact-
tint'tt bsel,',.Ple ground--bad any necessity .
yet, eniietroved? Nor cimldt
do i°,'sreti. he had often before heardagree used,w"h t thhaet :tr,hg when
!ttett.' 6,,ltiilkd the limits of the Constitution, you should
In )•
elite t,,.• He confessed., that though I e had heard
bt,t4trAndlostity, that doctrine, they carried little, weight
ie' ,t' tit' 11,. was not convinced by such aroolientis—r.
'via,' 'l,: the'n"ntraey, he considered that whenever t ie !a
passed without sufficient
tro,%"?tnttit'Zastitution was P ne„,,,,ity, a
°I eh:inane t the direst and most manifest
'4 So bitto ' was committed on the rights and liberties
argument,
ir,
,:l'f‘l
,°•••••-(Cheers ) It was a plausiblenu
lvtre-vq,nst,°; which he* would say—let those whe-
thelli IN- r,,s't t 1.5 threshold of the Constitution
with
ably the ." 'to doing they at least carry alang,
mon-
-4 til(l:4•4l7''Pathy of all considerate and
intendedle
might,ofdl....Ote' cheers.) That which
he wwasld predict
lelaset'toretos terror to the people, 'on.
,b-,ere.
oto;toret,tt:;)4tt
ittli,s4s4:lMl.lsricze,sofflowiw•eagkoniensgs
atto,
justified tki°ll" .tri'la to I Nall be found to entorcsetifithie‘edb:havvis
warigtitit-
-One 1- shy - et '
Migh- 4111 ll' t141,43;-' dangerous provisions
to hear that his
ttillt ittit4o4rotite:gabetb,ll4o...u_ . IfFreiewndass gladve.enrtyertaii.edahpoapte.
tof the
kith ,I,ltri 't h'rY to put this obnoxious that it
th nrity itver 4 s.eertainly apuroved of the suggestion,
person of
at it ti the 1 district was proclaimed, a P
tll44leti°l4,l 4a, ought to be sent to that district; and
i
141ty ' iceillit"eh only after all the ordinary means tot":ettltj:4:444
toadrizee resorted
,to,.tohuat..the extram:-
id be put in
dot ieoci,id 'this ou i d I'Y the Bill sh
, en 4f, ,1itti,,.... g!,t, in nis opinion, to be one of the
4!oi.it
,s.,:r t 6 '' tv.ith his right Hon. Friend,,eimminoe;
is t, *Nit bi
t`, Passing of the Bill, as theieny tl
fri ed's tuate the mast
might be avoided. Ile pressed
co4itiihtt,,,,,,",rtieularly on his Noble and Right Hon.
'4lad m?n, eh..ne entertained a deep and overwhelming
the tttria Nhen" tii,re
I. could not be a more dangerous
People Ylvin e,,,el:4•tey than to make use of officers of
Sir. ST con„ln Which the polincal feelings of the
55
his It. 'NI:Nit Pl,"----(Lotid cries of " Hear, bear.. ")
'sYs thatle):t Flub -'d lista-fled with the deepest attention
Neter 1,. -)r 11,:,,1ti Learned Friend. He mei nut
' eiltertiti 'Rht ti F littl ti,
,°ll. and Learned riend's ch,a-
-• highest respect. it was not efaiy,

however, his respect for his Right Hon. and Learned
Friend's private character that made him regret to find his
Right Hon. and Learned Friend differ from his Kijesty'e
Government respecting a point on which they had felt
it their painful duty to adopt what appeared to them to be
the only expedient course, but because he also felt, that
whatever fell from his Right Hon. and Learned Friend
must, under any circumstances, have great weight with
that House. In one pert of his Right Hon. Friend's
statement, he had not done justice to his Majesty's Govern-
ment—lie meant that part in which his Right Hop. and
I earned Friend alleged that his Majesty's Government had
rot done what has Right Hon. and Learned Friend
thought, and what he (Mr. Stanley) thought they ought
to do—namely, to reserve a recourse to military tribunals
as the leet resource, when all other modes of adtninistering
justice had failed ; and, above all, not to mix up military
tribunals with any considerations of a political nature.
Now, that was erecisely the provision made by his Ma..
jssty's Ministers on the subject. Wherever there was the
appearance of any offence involving considerations of a
political nature, his Majesty's Government had, unasked,
unpressed, but from their spontaneous feeling, struck that
off.nce out of the list of those of which the military tri-
bunals were to take cognizance. All offences connected
with libel, with seditious purifications, with political
meetings, and with the weirs, they had at once struck
nut. Was it, then, quite lair on the p ill of his Right
Hon. and Learned Friend to impute to his Majesty's Go-
eernment an attempt to constitute these military tribunals
for po itical purp sea ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) Good God !
what were the political offences which these mili;ary iris
bundle were to invmstigate ? Whi,efoot outrages, bur-
glaries, robberies, herighing of cattle—all abuses and viola-
tions of the rights of property, carried on by an organized
force, paralyzing the ordinary law, end intimidating the
timid and weak , sucn were the political aff-nces w hich
were to be submitted to the cognizance rif these military
tr ibunals, fir cuurtsmartial they were not in the ordinary
sense of the word. With respect to intimidation, he
shim d have been very much astonished it any Irish Mem-
ber had stated that there was noire existing in Ireland.
There was d.ffsrent evidence on differ,nt points, but there
was no point on which there was stronger m vidence
than that the middle and lower classes in Inland
evinced the greatest reluctance and alarm at the idea of
being compel ed to attend on a jury. With respect to the
unprecsdi nted number of jurors at the late Assizes at
Kilkenny, be crinfessid that he had no confidence in these
sudden cenversions.—(Hear, hear.) If a more healthy
tone had gradually app. ared—if there had been gradual y
less alarm and more confidence, then be should have sa d
there was some plausibility in the argument founded
en the large attend ince of jurors in question. But
when tray saw at one Assizes that it was almost im-
possible to obtain any jurors, when the civil court
Was almost deserted, when only six weeks ago it was
predicted that no Jury could be found to convict persons
charged with offences; and when he found suddenly, that
Or the introduction into P aliament of a tneasute whir h
Was to be ',reductive or the greate-t restraint on ti e lawless
and the iurbulent, and on the agitators who at present
exercised so extensive a power over the people ; when he
also knew how impart oit it was to the latter to endea-
v Jur to produce an impression that the provision* of the
Bill weie unnecessarily harsh and severe, he confessed that
he derived from the sudden and rapid ieflux of Jurors at
Ki kenny anything but satisfaction and confidence. He
read it in the compete and systematic organ ze ion of a
plan to prevent the law from being rendered effeciive. If,
however, he were driven to the other argument, and if
the Bill hail already s ruck a salutary terror int the evil-
disposed. and imparted a salutary confidence to the well
disposed, in that statement he saw an argument, not against
pass rig the Bill, but in faveur of passing it. Adverting
to the character of Juries, he observed that, with reference
to Coroners' Juries in Ireland, it was notorious that in
many cases they were actuated by a deierininetion to find
iine, and one only verdict. The H in. and Learned Mem-
her iur Tipperary had said, in answer to his Noble Fr lend
—and the statement had been cenfirtned by the Hon.
M roller for Limerick—that the Petty Juries were not
taken born the lower classes. The tact was, that
the Sheriff was compelled to look not only at the
property of those who were to be the Jurors, but
also at the neighbourhood in which they lived ; and was
compelled to take core that they lived in houses like fortifi-
cations, and were able to defend themselves from the po-
police. Now, bow greatly was the argument urged
against the Bill on the ground of constitutional right
weakened try that fact? For where was that principle of
constitutional security which declared that every uran
should be tried by his Peers?—(Hear, hear.) It had
urged that the gentry had not come forward. They had
come forward, and occupied places not only in the Grand
Juries to which they belonged, but in Petty Juries, in the
absence of persons better suited for that station. All this
was undoubtedly wrong; it was, in fact, trying the people
by the aristocratical class. But in the existing circumstances
of Ireland it was unavoidable; and the fact that it was so
weakened the argument which was founded on the sus-
pension of the Constitution by the Bill. It was recom-
mended by his Right Hen. and Learned Friend, that in
lieu of courteurartial, the Lord-Lieutenant should send
drown a kind of standing Commissioner into the disturbed
districts to try offenarrs. There was nothing in the Act to
prevent the Lord-Lieutenant doing this. He would go
fur her, and would say that, if there were reason to be-
lieve that Special Counniseions could effect the objects
which the Bid was intended to eff ct, he perfectly
agreed with his Right Hon. and Learned Friend, that it
would be infinitely better to retain the ordinary than to
adopt any extraordinary tribunal. But if, week after
week, it should appear that this was not the case—if, week
after week, it should appear that only the higher classes
email(' come torward with impunity, and that the lower
classes coul r not attend as jurors before a Special Com-
mission without great risk and odium, then surely it was
right to give the Lord Lieutenant, in the last resort, the
power which the Bill under consideration conferred upon
him. Under such circumstances, it appeared to him to be
infinitely better, on the part of his Majesty's Government,
to come forward boldly and ask Parliament, " Have you
sufficient confidence in us to place this formidable measure
in our hands ?" With respect to Special Commissions,
the only time at which they could be advantageously re-
sorted to, was when parties began to give way, and
when information flowed in to an extent which it was
sometimes trighttul to contemplate. Once let that
corner be turned, and a Special Commission might
he productive of great benefit. Ws Majesty's Go-
vernment had bent a Special Commission to the
Queen's County. That Commission had been success-
ful, as far as convictions went, but it had not t ern suc-
cessful in breaking down the existing system. But, said
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin, why did you
not send a special commission to Kilkenny? He could
tell that lion. and Learned Member, that a strict inquiry
had been made into the state of the prisons—into the
weans of information—and into the probability of obtain-
ing convictions; and that it there had eeen any chance that
prosecutions would have been successful, the Judges would
have been instructed to proceed from 111aryborough to Kik
keeny ; but there was none. Intimidation, as affecting
courts of justice, was still prevalent. It was true that there
had been convictions. Yes, right or wrong, there had been
convections. Guilty and innocent had been convicted in-
ilifferently. Jurors had come forward and convicted,
under what influence he knew not, and would not say.
This he would say, aowever, that not one case in twelve,
sent to prime by Government, although on what appeared
to be certain emidence, had been successtul, for that in
not one case out of twelve had the witnesses appeared ; and
that not one instance in twenty had any case been substan-
tiated, except by the evioence of the police alone. It this
did not show the existence of extensive intimidetion in
Kilkenny, he would abandon his argument. As conclusive
evidence of the existence of intunidation, he wound refer
to the case which had lately been quoted by the Gallant
Colonel, the Aletnber fur Sligo. A witness examined
before the Committee on the state of Ireland, was asked—
" To w hat do you att. ibute the state of insuoordivation
which exists in Ireland ?" The answer was.--" Do you
insist on my telling you ?" " Do you object ?" said the
Committee. " I do," replied the witness, " for if I were
to answer, and to answer correctly, you know well that
my life would not be safe." Su satiAied were the Mem-
bers of this Committer—lrish Members, be it ob-
served—ea' tire validity of this objection, that they
struck out of the evidence the answer of all answers
most elucidatory of the very point they were investigmting,
It had been said that it would render the officers of the
army obnoxious, to place them in a judiciml situation in
Ireland ; and that they would be subject to the imputation
of being biassed and partial. Now, it happened that
the Hon. Member for Waterford had yesterday let out this
important tact, nein, ly, that if a choice were given to the
great mass of the p pulation of Leland by what tribunal
they would be triad, their answer would be, that they
would be tried ay a tribunal constituted of officers of the
army. Su far as the feelings of the peeple
of Ireland
wen-, courtsmartial were n it there considered a n.ore
invidious sort of tribunals than courts of justice. Fur
his own part, considering the state of Ireland, he could
nut take upon himself the responeibility to which he
would be liable, if his M ijesta'a Ministers did not come
to the House for some such powers as were pr: posed•
They threw themselves on the House, and trusted that it
want(' plate such confidence in them, as to believe that
they would not abuse those powers, which nothing but

painful necessity could ever have induced them to ask
tor.—(Cheers.)
Mr. ABERCROMBY observ,d that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had contended that political agitation was con •
nested with predial agitation, and theref ,re he was iusti-
fied in applying to the et-fences the epithet of political.
Mr. STANLEY admitted that political agitation, by
exciting the minds of the peopl,, led to outrage and vio-
lence; but he did not consider the Whitefeet were guiitv
of political offences-
Mr. SHELL denied that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had answered the Right Hon. Gentleman (the M-mber
for Edinburgh), whose Opinion, expressed in opposition to
his p
,rty,would in,ke a great impression upon the
House. The Right Hon. Secretary asked to be trusted
with this authority upon a pledge that it would not be
abused ; but he (Alr. Shed) was not ready to intrust ar-
bitrary power to any one, unless a case was made out.
The cutting down of the Bill, by excluding what were
termed political r ffencs, such as libels, confined the
operation of the Bill almost entirely to the poor peasantry.
Captain BERKELEY (we believe) read a letter which
be had received from a magistrate of the county of Kil-
kenny, corroborwing the statement of the Right Hon.
Secretary for Ireland. That gentleman stared distinctly
that the loyal attended the resent assizes at Kilkenny,
from a wish to suppress the disturbances in their county,
and the cdskyal from a desire to make the country believe
that there was no intimidation practised upon them. His
opinion was, that a case had been made out by his Ma-
jesty's Government.—(Hear.)

Mr. O'FERRALL, in reference to the letter read by
the preceding speaker, asked the House what opinion they
ought to form of the judgment of a migrstrate who set
sell up as a judge of the loyal and the disloyal in the
county wherein he resiiied.—(Hear, hear ) If the jail a
in Ireland had been base enough shrink from doing. their
duty, he would have granted Ministers the power which
this clause proposed to give them : but the contrary
was the fart, and he must therefore pause before he
confided to them a power which nothing but the most
urgent and palpable nece*sity e•oa!d justify. He would
pass this Bill without the courtmartial clause until the end
of the present session, and if at that rirne it were proved
that ,he juries of Ireland hid not performed their duty
manfu ly arid honestly by their country, he would gr int
them this clause tout ; but he looked opu.n it as monstrous
to propose to abolish the trial by jury and to erect courts-
martial in Ireland for the trial of civil offences, whilst
Parliament was sitting and juries and witnesses were per-
forming their duty. Impressed with this conviction, he
was determined to give his most strenuous opposition to
this clause.

Mr. SHAW had on a former occasion consented to the
inciple of this clause ; but he believed that in the shape
which the clause assumed at present, it %you'd be inope-
rative. He thought th it Pie necessity for this extraoroi-
naty poser was fully made out. The Judge of assize,
who had gone for the four last years the Kilkenny circuit,
had told the grand jury of that county, that in each suc-
cessive year he had found the state of their county getting
regularly worse; that the benefits of the British Consti-
tution were suspended within their limits ; that not one-
twelfth of the critninel offences committed in Kilkenny
were brought before the court; and that evidence was
wanting to convict, even in one-twelfth of the cases which
were brought before it. The necessity, therefcre, for this
measure was cleat ly made out ; but lie had learned from
some military men, that the altetaiione recently made in
the constitution of these court-martial would rend. r this
clause almost inoperative. He was ewe that from the
constitution of these tribunals, by which it was nec esary
that the five officers who were members of it should he
unanimous in their dscieion, they woul I prove neither
speedy nor effieacious tribunals. Tie great inducement
which had led tom to yield to the request of Ministers to
put into their hands powers mere extraordinary than any
whien their predecessors in office had ever called for, was,
that those powers would be used to put down political
agitation. He could not see the justice by which the
Hon. and Learned Member for Tipperary was pet mitt, d
to aeitate with impunity, and by which his poor deluded
victims were to be visited with severe penalties. He was
sorry to say that, on the suggestion of the Hon. Member
for Koketelbright, a summery power had h en removed
from the Bill which he deemed most important—he meant
the power of suppressing political meetings. The mea-
sure, lie was certain, would be found inc,pable of putting
down political agitation. He was full of gloomy antici
pateins as to the future prospects of Ireland. He believed
that it was likely that it would soon be separated from
this country.—(Cries of " No, no.") He mieht be wrong
in that opinion, but that opinion he sincerely and honesty
maintained. He concluded by stating that he should give
to this clause his very decided, hut very reluctant assent.
Mr. 0 CONNELL felt that he ought not to allow this
question to go to a vote without saying a word in reply to
the Noble Lords and Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of
the House. He wished that he could entertain a hope
that Ministers had heard enough that evening from the
Hon. and Learned Member for Edinburgh, the Hon. and
Learned Member for Kirkcudbright, and from the Hon. and
Learned Member for Monaghan (who knew a great deal
of Ireland), to induce them to suspend their opinions upon
this clause till to-morrow. He was not the friend, nei-
ther did be pretend to be the friend, of the present Minis-
ters ; but he was sure that their soundest friend would
concur with him as to the propriety of the advice which
he had just recommended to their adoption. The point
on which the Committee was then called upon to decide
was this—'l Is the trial by jury to be abolished at the
mere will of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland ?"—(Hear,
hear.) That was the question to which a Reformed Par_
liament was called upon to answer Yes or No.—(Hear,
hear.) It was net a light or unimportant question. If
they should unfortunately answer the question in the affir-
mative, what were they going to substitute for it? Not
a courtmartial, but some bastard mongrel thing that was
called a courtmartial, but, in point of fact, was not
one. He, meant no offence persenally to the gentlemen
who were to serve upon it, but he must say that the
country was going to have a packed courtmartial, a ram-
bling tribunal, undefined by principle, unlimited by any-
thing like law, misshapen, ill-begotten, in a word—a mere
embryo.—(Cries of " Hear.") He protested against its
establishment, not only on its own account, but also on
account of it as a precedent. He would not waste the
time of the House by declaiming on the merits of jury
trial—he would only say that be pitied the man, who,
calling himself a lover of freedom, did not estimate highly
this mode of trial. It preceded the title of the King to
his throne, and was in existence even before the right of
representation in Parliament existed. In abolishing that
mode of trial, let the House consider what power was
vested in this mongrel courtmartial. It had no poser to
try the murderers of Mr. Leonard—no power to try those
violent outrages at which good men of all parties naturally
shuddered—no power to try political effences, for that
power had very properly been taken from it. Thus, then,
there remained nothing for it to try but the middle species
of offences. But then the erection of these couitsmartial
was rendered necessary by the intimidation practised upon
jurymen. The Right Hon. Secretary, in arguing this
question, placed the of p inents of the Bill in a cu
rious diteinma. At the last assizes, the jurors for
the county of Kilkenny did not attend : that wss
intimidation. At the present as-ires they do attend ;
and that, sail the Right Hon. Secretary, was intimida-
tion again. Such were the miserable grounds upon which
an intelligent people were to be depriied of their dearest
rights. He recollected, that upon a former night the
Right Hon. Secretary had produced a great effect, by
quoting a letter foretelling that the jurors would not attend
at the present assizes for Kilkenny. To-night he had en-
deavoured to induce the Committee to act noon another
letter, stating that the jurors had attended in ex raordiriary
numbers. How then were the honest friends of Irish
liberty to act, when they found that whether jurors at•
tended or not, their rights and franchises were to be equally
destroyed ?--(Hear.) Again, it had been stated that
witnesses would not attend, so much were they intitin•
dated. Why, it was now in evidence that they attended
wil ingly and in crowds. But were the witnesses intimi-
dated ? On that point the evidence of Mr. Barrington,
which he read, sues decisive. Mr. Barrington asserted
that he had never known a ease in which a witness was
maltreated on account of his having given evidence. it
was miserable to have to enter into details and discussions
like these—it was miserable that the trial by jury should
be the stake for which he was playing, and that such
wrenched counters as these should be set against so valu-
aide and inestimable a prise.—(Cheers.) But, sup-
posing that witnesses did not attend before the ordinary
tribunals of the land, what power had these
military tribunals to compel their attendance? It was
said that the courts of law were inoperative, from want
of sufficient evidence. Were these militery tribunals to
act with less.—(Hear, hear.) Bot put the case the other
way. Witnesses w. uld not come volitatarily forward, but
were there no such things as informers—men who
trafficked in blood, and who, fee a paltry pittance, would
cell the lives of their fellow -s:tbjects ?—(Hear, hear.) The
evidence of an informer was always suspicious; he was
generally an accomplice in the offences with which he
charged others. Tie evidence of an accomplice required
corroboration ; and what was evidence in corroboration
was a d &tilt point even for the venerable Judges of the
land to determine; and yet all this was to be settled
wit out discussion by these military red-coated Judges.
—(Hear.) He contended that the Right Hon. Secretary
lied not shown any necessity for this measure. The Right

Hon. Secretary in his speech that evening had gone so far
as to say that he hoped that if this Bill were passed, the
executive viivernment would not have occasion to use it.—
(Hear.) That was a distinct admission that there was no
necessity for the Bill, and therefore the House ought not to
give to the Lord-Lieutenant the power of deciding at his
will and pleasure whether the trial by Jury should he abo-
lished in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Then the Right Hon.
Secretary, having eiven up the ground of necessity, called
upon the House, from its confidence in Ministers, to grant
t -em those extraordinary powers. Now ought they to give
up their liberties to the keeping of any man, oat of con-
ti fence either in him or his colheigues ?—(No, no.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman could not ask this Bill of them as
a right, when he called upon them to give it him in eon-
Hence. He could not demand it front them as a debt, so
he notv came forward and solicited for it as charity. Give
it him in charity,—bestow it upon him as an eleemosy-
nary contribution. Yes, you will do so, if you are pre -
pared in confidence to abolish the trial by jury, and to
abolish it for a mongrel species of ambulatory cow tmartial,
clocked above and cut away below, which is neither fish
nor flesh nor good reil-herring.—(Clieers.)
Lord INGESTRIE was understood to s iy,'thaethough
lie had supported this Bill upon its first introduction, he
was now inclined to oppose it, because this clause had
been so altered as to he rendered ineffective.
Mr. STANLEY, in reply to the Noble Lord's reason
for support from this Bill, would only
state,
words, which did not in the slightest degree affect its im-
port, in precisely the same shape in which it was origi-
nally introduced into the House.
Colonel PERCEVAL was almost inclined to vote against
this clause, since the mode in which the constitution of
the courtsin irtial had been altered by requiring five of its
members to tie unanimous, would render it difficult for
the Government to render any effectual protection to the
inhabitants of Ireland.

Lord SAIDON did not think that the change made in
this clause was •ufhicient to warrant an alteration 01 senti-
ment in those Hon. Members who had originally given
their support to this Bill.
Ttie Commit ee then divided, when the numbers were—
For the clause
Against it
Majority -140
The clause was adopt ,d.
On our return to the gallery we found the House still
in Committee. . _

Toe 11 th clause was read, and, after some short dis.
cu.sion, . .

Mr. WASON proposed that the court should be unani.
mous in the fit,dine and sentence on the accused.

Lord ALTHORP said that there was a sufficient pro-
tection in the niodifications mentioned by him on a former
evening and repeated by his Righi lion. Friend that even-
ing, namely, that when the curt consisted of 9 trieuib re
7 should agree in the finding and sentence ; where less
than 9, 5 should agree.

Air. CYCONNE[I.. supported the amendment.
An HON. MEMBER suggested that the same number
should constitute the court in every case, and then the
court might be reqttire.l to be unanimous in their verdict.

Mr. C. W. VVII.NN was in favour of the clause as it
had been modified.

The Committee then divided, and the numbers were..-
For the amendment 42
Against it .. 145
Majority -104
Mr. BOTCH then coniplooed that it was the practice
when the prisoner made an objection to clear the court,
and th- Judge- Asivocite had the privilege of replying to
toe objection in the absence of the prisoner and his ad-
vis re. He theietore moved tie introduction of words the
effect of which was to ab dish this l netice in courts.
martial to Lr held under the Bill.

After a few words from Mr. R. GRANT, the atnend-
tnent was ni g itived.
3lr. WARBURTON then moved that no verdict of
acquittal should be revised by the c,iurtmartial which de-
livered it, or by any other courttnartial.
This amendment was agreed to.
e clause, as amended, was agreed to.
The House resumed, and the CHAIRMAN reported
progress and obtained leave to sit a ain to morrow.