The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-02 00:00:00

formed church, the change of creed which had taken place
afforded no justification whatever for touching the eccle-
siisticil property. But then, it was said by the Hon.
Member for Leeds that this could not be looked upon as
church property, but that it might be compared—to
what ? Why of all other things to the half-pay of an
officer. Now if any thing like human could be taken to
exist between a likeness of things present with those
which were remote, this must be allowed to be one
of the most witty similitudes that had ever yet ema-
nated from the imagination of man. (Loud laugh-
ter.) According to the principle of the comparison,
if it was right to tax the incomes of the clergyman,
so would it likewise be right to tax the income
of the half-pay officer, a proposition to which he thought
the half pay officer would not be very ready to agree.—
(A laugh.) But was it possible that the people at large
could imagine that the House was occupied in devising a
plan for taxing the clergy of Ireland, instead of bringing
forward one for their relief, after the dire privations they
had experienced for some time past? He ventured to say
that if the question were put to 99 men out of every 100
among the whole population of England, they would think
that the House of Commons was deliberating on some
mode of relief for the clergy of Ireland, instead of raising a
tax upon their precarious incomes. There were many
cases in which clergymen in Ireland had not received
one shilling for the last three years, but still
more, in which they had received nothing for the last two
years and a half. Instead, however, of relieving the
clergy, it was now proposed to relieve the land. When
the Noble Lord (Althorp) talked, last year, about
the extinction of tithes, he (Sir R. Peel) objected to the
phrase, and well knew that the Noble Lord could not be
aware of the effect it was likely to produce on so excitable
a people as the peasantry of Ireland. All he implored
the House to look at now was, the grievous wrong which
this measure would do to the existing interests. Let Hon.
Members only look at the utterly destitute situation of
many of the clergy, who were obliged to subsist on eleemo-
synary contributions. As the discussion upon this ques-
tion must necessarily be adjourned, he hoped that in the
interval his Majesty's Government would be induced to
bring forward some proposition to remedy the evil of
which he complained. He trusted that the Noble Lord
and his colleagues would never sanction a principle which
he must characterize as paltry, unprofitable injustice.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, the Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir R. Peel) said that the House should not legislate
with respect to church cess until the amount was ascer-
tained. Now he (Lord J. Russell) understood the
amount had been ascertained, and it was found to amnunt
to between 60,000/. and 50 000/. But then it was said
that they should legislate on church property precisely on
the same principle as they legislated with respect to the
property of in tividuals, at least so far as regarded the pre-
sent proprietors. It should be recollected, however, that
the incomes of the clergy were not held for the benefit of
individu but were held for the purposes they were ori•
ginally granted—namely, the promotion of piety and
religion. But the Right Honourable Baronet insisted
that transferring the burden of church cess to the present
incumbents was a violation of all principle. When once
the principle was laid down that it was expedient to
abolish church cess, he thought every one must
concur in feeling how desirable it was that the
abolition should be complete, and take effect immediately.
If it were done gradually, upon the dealt of the present
incumbents, this inconvenience and anomaly would arise
—that church cess would be abolished in some parishes,
whilst in others the inhabitants would continue to pay
it for many years. As to the present distress of the
Irish clergy, which had been so leeliogly urged by the
Right Hon. Baronet, the answer to that appeal was, that
the distress of the Irish clergy had come under the consi-
deration of his Majesty's Goverum-nt, and that they would
bring forward a measure for the relief of the Irish clergy.—
( Hear, hear.) He contended, however, that Minicers were
providing for the relief of the Irish clergy, and adding to
their security, by taking away the causes of the collision
between the clergyman and the Irish peasant. It was im-
possible to deny that a great outcry existed on this sebject
—an outcry, not arising, as he thought, from the burden
of tithes, for he believed that the amount paid in tithes
did not exceed one forty-fifth of the produce of the land.
The odium, however, was so great, that if the Irish esta-
blished church was left in its ple:ent position, it would
be exp ised to the greatest danger ; and he went further,
for he thought that, if the church of Ireland was placed
in a more secure position, the church of England would
be endangered. In conclusion, the Noble Lord observed
that the plan proposed for the reform of the Irish church
did not go further than was necessary to provide for the
stability of the Irish church.—(Hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN rose amidst mingled cries of "Ques-
tion," and 6. Go on." He stated his readiness either to
follow the Noble Lord, who had just sat down, or to re-
serve his observations until to•morrow evening.
Mr. SHAW suggested the first resolution should now
be read, and that the second resolution, on which an
amendment would be moved, should be discussed to-
morrow.

Lord ALTHORP said he had taken the same view of
the matter as that suggested by the Hon. and Learned
Hember for the Dublin University. He would, therefore,
accede to his suggestion, and consent to the adjournment
of the debits on the second resolution until to-morrow.

The first resolution was then read, and agreed to.
After wh:ch the House resumed, and the CHAIRMAN re-
ported the resolution to the House, and obtained leave to
sit again this day.
Before the rising of the House the Sergeant appeared at
the table, and stated that the individual who was discovered
in the body of the House, was in custody, and had been
visited by a medical man, who pronounced him insane.
Mr. Lavies (a surgeon) was then called in, and reported
that he had visited the individual in question, who stated
his name to be Dillon; that he was evidently labouring
under mental derangement, and that it would not be quite
safe to let him go at large. The SPEAKER then humanely
suggested that the unfortunate individual should be de-
tsin_•d until the sitting of the House this day, and that he
would take care and have him properly provided for in
the intervall
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a quarter before two o'clock.