The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, August 4.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the
Woolsack at Five o'clock.
NAVIGATION-LAWS.
The Earl of HARDWICKE brought up the report of
the Committee on the Navigation-laws.
The NOBLE EARL likewise presented several petitions
against the repeal of those laws.
SALMON FISHERIES.
The Severn Salmon Breed Preservation Bill was read
a second time.

PETITIONS.
Lord BROUGHAM presented $ petition from Lan-
caster in favour of secular education; also a petition
from an individual named Hardy, complaining of the
evils arising from the existence of grand juries, who
found bills on es parte evidence, which were afterwards
used for the purpose of extorting money, the indict-
ments thus found never being prosecuted.
SICILIAN AFFAIRS.
The NOBLE LORD also asked if Mr. Fagan, an attache
to the British Embassy, had gone iu a British steam-fri-
gate to Palermo, and had signified to the Sicilian Pro-
visional Government, in opposition, his instructions, as
he was bound to suppose, that if they did not choose the
Duke of Genoa for King of Sicily, the countenance of
the British Government should be withdrawn from them.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood
to say that there was no foundation for the report
to which the Noble and Learned Lord alluded.
IRELAND.

Lord BROUGHAM hoped that the Government
would take measures for punishing that portion of the
press which spread false reports with regard to Ireland.
Some newspapers had been propagating most false re-
ports with regard to the rebellion in Ireland—
reports calculated to produce an outbreak. He
was willing to take all his share of the un-
popularity of any measure which might be
propsed to suppress such false reports. The press
knew that so long as it was kept within the bounds of
truth there was no firmer or more sincere friend of the
liberty of the press than he was.
MILITIA.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE asked if the Government in-
tended to propose any measure for calling out the mi-
litia force of the country, and for re-organizing it?
Earl GREY said it had been th, intention of the Go-
vernment to propose a measure for the re-organization
of the militia force, but at present they were compelled,
in consequence of the state of the finances, to abandon
the hope of bringing forward any measure on the sub-
ject during the present session of Parliament.
After a short conversation the subject dropped.
THE SLAVE TRADE.
•

Lord BROUGHAM said he had seen with surprise
that a Committee of the other House was sitting on the
question of reviving the slave trade, by withdrawing the
British squadron from the coast of Africa. He used the
term " reviving the slave trade," because no consequence
_ was ever clearer than that such an act would inevitably
engender the renewal and 'extension of the slave trade.
Nt,thing was more contemptible than the argument that
money could be saved by withdrawing the squadron,
while an impetus would be given to the traffic in slaves.
It was true the squadron might not be able to extermi-
nate the slave trade, but it could not be denied that it
' kept down the trade very considerably. He understood
that the Committee had been considerably influenced by
the evidence of ono person, but who was that person ?
Why, an American slaveowner, who wanted five bun-
. dred more slaves for his plantations—a man who, al-
though ho had committed no specific act of murder, was
yet as much a murderer as if ha had the brand of Cain
on his forehead. He would move for the returns of the
number of slaves imported into the Brazils during the
last two years.
Earl GREY said that all the information on the sub-
ject received at the Foreign-office was on the table of the
House already.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH thought it desirable
that a message should he seut to the House of Commons
for copies of the evidence taken before that Committee.
Several naval officers must have been examined; and, if
the :r representations agreed with those he had heard
from many naval officers, he thought he should be able
to show his Noble and Learned Friend cause materially
to change his opinions, and to satisfy their Lordships
that, to prevent the trade, by means of a squadron on the
coast, was practically impossible, and that a consequence
of its presence was, that the slave trade was conducted
with a degree of cruelty which far surpassed anything
stated by the Noble and Learned Lord.
The motion was then understood to be withdrawn.
CASE OF LORD ABBUTHNOT.

Lord BROUGHAM said he felt it to be his duty to
avail himself of the earliest opportunity of calling their
Lordships' attention to a fact connected with the case of
a Noble Lord who stands accused of an of which
has thrown his family into great anxiety and distress.
He had ascertained that a memorial had been drawn up
by the grand jury who found the bills, that the Noble
Lord was afflicted with a disease which affected his
mind, and to which the act might be traced. He had
the fact from Mr. John Bayley, the clerk of the arraigns.
He had known the Noble Lord for sixteen years, and
considered him a most amiable man. He wished to have
this memorial produced.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the grand jury had
gone beyond their province' in agreeing to the memorial
in question. It was the duty of the grand jury to take
evidence only for the Crown, and were precluded from
taking for the defence. Their Lordships' House was not
the place to obtain the document.
Lord CAMPBELL said the case of the Noble Lord
was calculated to excite their sympathy, but that House
had no jurisdiction in the case. They were acting under
the sanction of an Act of Parliament. The fact, as it
stood inrrent thnt th. -r •,- i- -k jjna
'ma been ordered to take tile party into custody,
return was non eat inventus. He wonld not, at the pre.
sent, enter into the case, and would abstain from further
remarks, and would merely observe that they would all
be glad to return a verdict of Not guilty upon their
honour."

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) BILL.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE moved the se-
cond reading of the Public Works (Ireland) No. 2 Bill.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that the events
which had recently taken place in Ireland would not in •
duce him to abstain from doing what might be advan-
tageous to Ireland. This Bill was of an important
character. It provided that the money which had been
advanced to Ireland should be repaid, Out that as it
was collected it should be appropriated exclusively
to Irish purposes. In that principle he en-
• tirely concurred. The sum so to be appropriated
wa: four millions and a half. He acqui, aced in the prin-
ciple, but it did not follow that tho objects to which it
was to be applied by the Bill were the most advan-
tageous. The improvement of the soil was most impor-
tant, but was not the most necessary. The object to
which they should direct their attention was the im-
provement of the social condition of the country. Un-
less that was effected they could expect no good result.
It was at present a scandal to this country and to the age.
—(Efear, hear.) There was no country, in this respect,
in-so bad a state, that pretended to civilisation. He re-
collected the observation of Lord Eldon, that there were
two Irelands—Protestant and,Catholic Ireland. There
was not in the north of Ireland that disorganization
which prevailed in the south. It was this difference of
religion which was the source of the evil. He did not
mean to say there was anything in the Catholic religion
which would of necessity cause this state of things.
There were many other countries in which that religion
prevailed where no such evils existed, and which
were remarkable for the excellence of their social
condition. It was not because it was a conquered coun-
try, not because there had been confiscations of property,
not because there had been religious persecutions—for
there were other countries which had passed through all
these phases, and yet everywhere else the conquerors and
the conquered were found living together in unity and
prosperity under the same laws. Having conceded the
Catholic claims, it was evident there must be some pecu
liarity in the state of that oountry to cause this state of
things. That peculiarity was to be found in the fact
that the religion of the great body of the people was re-
pudiated by the State. What remedy then should be
applied ? Not that which had been recommended
by some. Not the taking away the funds of the
Establishment for the endowment of the Roman
Catholic clergy.. The Act which would so alienate
the property of the Church would also alienate
the Protestants of Ireland, who" might be considered
the national garrison of the country. The remedy con-
sisted in making the Roman Catholic clergy the atipe-
diaries of the State and subject to its patronage. The
money to be repaid under the provisions of this Bill
should be applied to the purchase of glebes and the
building of glebe houses for the Roman Catholic clergy,
and attached to the cure, leaving things in other respects
as they were at present. This was no new opinion of
his, it was one which he had long entertained. The
late Lord Castlereagh, whose love for Ireland was sur-
passed by no one, had always appreciated in his mind
with the emancipation of the Catholics the endowment
of the clergy, and often expressed a wish that he might
live to see that measure effected. He wished at the pre-
sent crisis to state his opinion. A time of difficulty was
the period at which those who were members of a legis-
lative assembly should come forward and state their
opinions to the country, and that they were determined
to do their duty. If he had not at the present moment
stated his opinion he should consider himself unworthy
of the station he occupied.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord MONTEAGLE said, from the interest he took
in what concerned •Ireland, he could not but declare that
the
NoMe Earl was entitled to the thanks of every liberal
man in the country for the opinions he had expressed.
He had never heard the matter put forward with more
ability, for ho had often heard it put unfairly, in pro-
posals to endow the Roman Catholic clergy from the
funds of the Church. The conditionof the Catholic
clergy was most unfortunate, fur they were often drivenie
to political agitation against their will, by the people,
under the threat of starvation, withdrawing from them
the means of
the
support.—(llear,hear.) He would take
that opportunity of reminding House that his late
Majesty King George the Third, howeverc a t
h olie strongly
claimshe
might have been opposed to the Roman
iu other respects, was favourable
ato the endowment
of the Roman Catholic clergy.
might de
pend upon it, from the discussions now theytiig
that subject, and the position it was beginning to cuPlace on
in public estimation, that great boon must ultimatelyoc pj
conceded. If the subject were examined into, theobe-
jections to such concession was not so strong as some be-
lieved, for if they severed that peculiar class of objec-
tions urged by those opposed to all endowments of reli-
gion by the State, they would find the remaining class
neither numerous nor formidable.—(Hear.)
wals• ard STANLEY said he could not but express his re-
gret that his Noble Friend (Ellenborough) should have
entered into a discussion and given expression to certain
speculative views entertained by him upon a subject
which was not before the House. The measure before
the House was Air the purpose of authorising the re-issue

of the money repaid by Ireland to the Imperial Treasury
fur the same or similar purposes for which they had been '
originally made. They were not now called upon to
discuss the policy or the expediency of la) ing out large
sums for the purpose of endowing the Roman Catholic
clergy of Ireland from the Imperial Treasury. That
was not a question to be discussed incidentally
in the course of a debate originated in a Bill authorising
the re-issue of a few hundred thousand pounds to pro-
mote public works. They should not then argue the
question at all. With no inconsiderable share of asto-
nishment had ho heard the Noble Lord state the ad-
visability, in his judgment, of paying four millions and
a half out of the imperial funds for building glebes and
the endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy. Such a
proposition involved questions of policy as well as of
principle—questions for the consideration of a large
portion of the population of the country. It was with
many a question of religious feeling and religious prin-
ciple. With him it was one of state policy, though he
admitted that was not the light in which it was viewed
by the majority of the Protestant population. Asa
question of policy, he admitted the Roman Catholic
clergy were too much under the control of their flocks.
But he was not satisfied with the doctrine already laid
down, that it was expedient to place that clergy on a
footing of perfect: independence of their: flocks b. y
means of endowments taken from the Imperial
Treasury, without at the same time connecting
them, as a matter of policy, or rather of police,
with the Government. Before he assented to any State
provision being made for the clergy, he should like to
know the quid pro quo, as well as the condition on which
the grants were to be allowed. While he made this ad-
mission, he entirely deprecated the discussion inci-
dentally of so important a subject, and the hasty expres•
sion of opinion upon a question which did not come then
legitimately under the consideration of their Lordships.
If such a measure were to be brought forward at all, he
trusted it would be brought forward on the responsibility
of Government, with a clear and explicit indication of
the funds from which the endowment was to proceed—
the purposes for which it was made, and the principles
on which the Catholic clergy were to be allowed to
benefit by the endowment. There was, at all evesits, one
source from which it should not be taken, namely, the
funds of the Established Church. If any such step were
sanctioned, then, in his opinion, the charge ought to be
a local and not an imperial charge, and no endowment
could, with consistency or justice, be made from the im-
perial funds.
Lord BEAUMONT complained that whenever the
question of endowing the Roman Catholic clergy was
raised, it was invariably confounded with the question
of the continuance or non-continuance of the Irish
Church Establishment, although it was in no way what-
eves connected with, or dependent on it. The Irish
Church Establishment might be an anomaly, but it was
not a grievance, and it was considered in Ireland merely
as a question of property, and not as an interference
with the . Catholic religion. He believed they would
cause considerable division among the Catholic clergy if
they were to connect them with the State ; and in his
opinion the connexion of the clergy of two churches
with the State instead of one only, would be even a
greater anomaly than now existed. He should like to
find the Catholic clery of Ireland remunerated by the
Government, and made to feel that they formed a portion
of, and had an interest in this great empire. It was also
his wish, as a step towards improving the social condi-
tion of Ireland, that larger grants should be expended in
promoting the education of the people, and in strength-
ening the hands of the Commissioners of National Edu-
cation, who, he regretted to say, had received opposition
from a sectarian section of clergy in Ireland, whom he
could not otherwise regard but as bigots.
The Bill was then read a third time, and ordered to
be committed.