The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-26 00:00:00

GROUP XIII.

This Committee met to-day at twelve o'clock, Sir Willlam Clay in
the chair; other Members present, Earl Jermyn, Mr. P. Ainsworth,
and Mr. Curtets.

NORTH (caracirsxin EXTENSION).
The case on behalf of this line was resumed.
Mr. Blythe( was recalled, and put in the abstract in reference to
the cost of the works which counsel on behalf of the Caledonian re-
quested on Friday. He had had considerable experience of con-
structing railways, and he believed the estimates quite correct. He
had made borings along the line to ascertain the strata.
Mr. Miller, civil engineer, deposed that the line had been laid
down by Mr. Blythe from his instructions. Those instructions were
given after consulting the feelings of the proprietors along the line.
lie had had several interviews with the Duke of Buccleuch and Sir
James Graham. He believed the line as now laid down a good and
practicable one. The present line was different from what it had
been when originally laid down,but it had been altered to meet the ob-
jections of the proprietors. Had the line from Canobie to Netherby
been run along the west bank of the Esk, it would have been very
,injurious to Netherby-park. It was the best line in an engineering
point of view that could be formed without seriously injuring
private property. It was their intention to run into the central
station in Carlisle, the ground of which had been scheduled
hy the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway. The land had
been scheduled not for that Company particularly, but to accom-
modate all the lines conveying there. The people of Carlisle were,
he believed, very anxious for such a central station. The Caledonian
line from Eden Water, about half a mile from Carlisle to the latter
place, was nearly the same as the present line; but they could be
easily run along the same ground by laying down two extra lines of
rails. There would be no difficulty in constructing the two lines in
the manner he described. With reference to the Canobie
colliery, the line was so laid that locomotives could go
up to the works. He had gene over the estimates of
Mr. Blythe, and he thought them quite enough. The prices of the
"works in the estimates of Mr. Blythe were higher than similar works
bad been tendered for on other parts of the North British Railway.
Ile knew the district well, and he thought it was important to have
an outlet to the south.
Cross-examined—He made the estimates of the Edinburgh and
Hawick last year. He believed the works on that line had been let
at prices as low as he there gave. He was not aware if the
Dalhousie viaduct was let at a higher price than he gave in his
estimates ; but if so, it must be owing to change of situation, by
-which the viaduct was longer. The price of the cubical quantity
he was sure was not increased. The viaduct was changed from the
l'arliareentary line, but within the limits of deviation. About twenty
piles of the Edinburgh and Hawick had been let. At the present
time, he believed, that wages were less than they were two months
ago. If the works of the Bills, which Parliament has sanctioned,
were pressed, then wages would possibly rise ; but he did not
think that engineers would so push the works. The steepest
gradient was 1 is 75 going from Carlisle to Hawick.
but he did not think there would be any heavy lands going that way,
They would come the other way. He thought this line would bo
-worked cheaper than the Edinburgh and Ilawick, for the reason that
on the Edinburgh line, the heavy loads would go up kill, and occasion
;greater expense in working. He had calculated the Edinburgh and
:Hawick line at 40 per cent., but 37 per cent. he thought enough for
the present line. An arrangement bad been made about the crossing
,of Borough-street, in Carlisle. The street was to be crossed by a bridge
15 or 16 feet high. Aecording to the deposited plans and sections, the
street was to be lowered 3 feat, and to be crossed by an arch 12
feet high with twenty feet span. This had been altered by arrange-
ment with the authorities by which the arch was to be raised and
• the street lowered a little more. He was not aware that the agree-
ment specified that the street should not be depressed more ; should
*there be no such depression than the alteration could not bo done in
agreement with the Parliamentary rules unless they could deviate
'the road. Another street was to be crossed by an arch instead of by
a level crossing according to arrangement, but that could
he done in conformity with the Parliamentary deviation.
/le believed there were no objecting parties to the present
line going into the Carlisle central station but the Caledonian Com-
:pang. The Lancaster and Carlisle Company opposed them, because
*they wereobligel t o do so on account of the Caledonian Company.
Mr. IS errew,i and valuer, deposed to the value of the land, which
lie set down at 32,0521. 17s. sd.
Mr. J. Nelson, builder, of Carlisle, said that he had valued the
louse property to be taken in Carlisle at 21,4001.
was the case for the promoters.
CALEDONIAN (X.ANGHOMME BRANCH).

The case on behalf of this line, and in opposition to the North
'British (Carlisle Extension) was then gone into.
The formal proofs, in compliance with Mr. Duncombe's resolutions,

'were put in and received.
Mr. Elliot, late of Roxburghshire, and now of Dumfries, ex-
amined—His brother was a manufacturer in Hawick, and he had
often assisted him. He now lived about six miles from Annan, and
had been there for about nine years. Ile knew the comitry between
and the por.-
Annan and Hawick well. It was a very hilly ,strict'
lation very thin—a shepherd Population. TY:
in the habit of going into Roxburgh• roadwns nowh owenten
was to Lenghialtn, and from thence to Hawick• Between
Langholm and itawick the farms were mainly grazing,
there being but little under cultivation. The priacipal outlet
of the hosiery trade of Ilawlck was Edinburgh and Glasgow. But a
small proportion went southwards. The same applied to the other
branches. He believed the total trade was not more than 800 or

1,000 tons, and if half of that went south it would not be very
much. They were generally coarse goods that could not lind a
market in England. The population between Hawick and Lang-
holm, in the parishes of Hews. Westerkirk, and Eskdale Muir,
through which the line passed, was in the proportion of 9%,
16%, and 93 to the square mile, for these parishes there were
but 10, 11, and 10 houses respectively paid window-tax. Is
Hoberton and Cavers, the proportion was somewhat similar. In the
whole town of Hawick but 72 houses paid the window tax. (The
witness then went through the whole route of the line, reading from
a table in his hand the respective populationset ofto eacht iparishn window-tax.
o wt o. t a
xt the
e.
square mile and the houses in eaehas
the traffic-tables of the North
1 number of places for
but 2,000, and the mannfaetnrers
The population of Langh'imtwWaso distilleries there. Throughout the
British took credit, would bewbhiuethlittle accommodated by the line.
were trifling. There
extent.
was raising heats stoat, but he did not mlecnyupoaftithoenmownouthble
pass
lids alooiifgthtleieclolunnet.ryTlwil ei
eereferredr°fa stock t o
was the
mainlyprincipal
raised on the coast of
Plawiek, and Newcastle and Morpeth were the principal markets.
Rut little went by Carlisle. Newcastle and Morpeth he thought
. .

would still continue the best markets. Though lie resided but six
hismilesf
a tf rom
sheep th
tea port of
Newcastle.
Innen. a no, duringfth ethatout of
came nine
fromy eit yeah 1 e
grainsi xßoxburghsent
towards Langholm the quantity might be 2,000 tons. Be thought
the quantity of slates taken from the port of Langholm would be
about 1,200 tons, of which 800 tons went to Hawick. The principal
traffic was coal, of which there was from 7,000 to 6,0000 tons.
For the wants of the district the Caledonian (Langholm Branch)
would serve the town of Langholm and the places below it, but
Hawick would be greatly benefited by the North British Branch.
That benefit, however, would be got at the expense of the Caledo-
nian, as it would take away the Edinburgh through traffic
of that line. The local traffic of the North British (Hawick line)
Railway could not support the railway, and it must depend on taking
the through traffic from the Caledonian Railway. He was per-
suaded two through lines could not be supported by the traffic. The
witness then went over the calculation of the number of parties that
were estimated by the North British to use the railway—a quantity
which he considered greatly exaggerated.
Cross-examined—At the time he was in Hawick, Cheviot wool
was alone used, but now there was a great deal of foreign wool used.
He knew Messrs. Long and Nixon well, and they were well qualified
to speak as to the trade of Hawick. The trade of Hawick fright have
been increased one-third since 1839. Ho did not think that a great
quantity of grain came into Dumfriesshire froin:Roxburghsbire. Ile
thought that if knit stock were taken cheaper by railway than by
driving, the former method would be preferred.
The witness was strictly cross-examined by Mr. Liddell, who ap-
peared for the Duke of Buccleuch and Sir James Graham, but no
point of material importance:was elicited.
Mr. Adam Black, Lord Provost, of Edinburgh, examined, said,
that when the Caledonian was brought .before Parliament
last year, there was a strong feeling in Edinburgh in its
favour, and a numerously signed petition in its favour was sent up.
• The inhabitants of Edinburgh supported the Caledonian line, because
it gave them a good outlet to the south, opened up the Wilsonstown
coal-fields, be the means of bringing a supply of water into Edin-
burgh, and be a check on the Edinburgh and Glasgow Company. It
would be a great injury, he considered, if anything should happen to
cripple the proper working of the Caledonian line. He did not think
the extension from llawick to Carlisle would benefit Edinburgh
much, while it would take a large proportion of the through traffic
frogthe Caledonian line.
I Cross-examined—At the time the feeling was so strong ill favour

.lr. Dunlop, merchant, of Glasgow, said he dealt largely in tweeds
and purchased at Hawick and Galashiels. Very little stock
was kept in either place, but the goods were stored in
Glasgow. The ordinary course was for the English mer-
chants to come to Glasgow. Similar goods were made in
the north of Scotland that were also sent to Glasgow. A por-
tion of the goods went to Edinburgh. The whole value of the goods
manufactured in Hawick might be 236,0001. The greater proportion
of the hosiery and blankets were consumed in Scotland. The goods
for the English market went by the east by steam from Berwick and
Leith. The English and foreign wool was brought from London to
Berwick at 12s. 6d. a ton.. It was of no importance that the transit
should be quick, and the steamers were the most eligible conveyance.
The dye stuffs were principally brought from Glasgow, anti time
was not of much importance in the conveyance of these.
Groceries for Hawick were mainly purchased at Edinburgh. The
whole of the general merchandise brought into Hawick was 1,768
tons, and the gross traffic that went from that town was, to Edin-
burgh 832 tons, towards Carlisle 88 tons, and towards Newcastle
234 tons. He was assisted by Mr. Thomson, of Glasgow, a hosiery,
merchant, in making out his calculations. The traffic in goods be-
tween Edinburgh and Carlisle was not such as to warrant the con-

struction of two lines. __
Cross-examined —He got the traffic to Carlisle, to Newcastle, and
to Edinburgh from the carriers on the roads. He had only been in
Hawick two or three times, but they had communication with
Hawick weekly.

Re-examined—Though his did not often go to Hawick himself, his
partner went there monthly, and they knew the trade well.
Mr. Thompson corroborated the evidence of the previous speaker
respecting the hosiery trade, which he represented to be principally
for the Scotch market. The whole weight of the hosiery was 200
tons, of which about one-third might go south.

Re-examined—He knew Mr. Nixon and Mr. Lang, of Hawick,
and they were well qualified to speak of the trade of Hawick.
Mr. Sanderson, who was well acquainted with the carrying trade,
supported the evidence of the previous witnesses as to the traffic of
Hawick and Galashiels. About one-sixth of the goods manufactured
went to England, the remainder went to Edinburgh and Glasgow.
The freight from Leith to London for manufactured goods was about
Is. per foot, or 40s. a ton by measurement. He did not think there
was sufficient to support two lines of railway from Edinburgh to
lis
to Hawick.
Cross
—examined
same to
aptrinGciaiplasehitoeiG4albasutldehles tnheavtehrehdaldd
HcarriaThweieedkdbffeAtlwßemeAnN Edinburgh and
wu
been
a presentt
Wsds
ypo.3erc. te naTtgthhtetehhweettrafficintan esees iwfnsr oohsuniout
support
t due::
evidence and that of the witnesses called by the North British re-
r.
The witness said he had some memoranda which he took down at
000 He thattlwtmoi tneahkst estimate
from Hawick to Edinburgh and Glasgow
from these cities to Hawick aZinelte2
the time he visited Galashiels, detailing the information given by the
athdaist crt°epw:cy.nbeetwheaden not
te
manufacturers. (The witness here read several of the items he took
south. would not any information.
the whole
Renton, managerfor Mr. Mitchell, carrier, of Carlisle, said that
eachwhole through traffic from Carlisle to Edinburgh was 742 tons
way. The Galashiels and Carlisle traffic was about 40 tons each
andhmeieimost
hadebthoacewat.sw givenswea
was
seen
0:03):
wentgt
00
goods
The traffic sthedtoe
k
ns.
d
tables of the Hawick and C
much overcharged. They were moreline..kely and he thought them very
He thought especially the estimate for parcels to be 3001. than 3,0001.
Hargreaves was the only other through carrier.
exorbitant. Mr.
Cross-examined—He estimated the traffici onr the road from the
number of horses employed by the other carrier and the
be-
tween Hawick and Galashiels and Edinburgh and Glasgow. carriers7l
regard to the parcels, ho merely thought from his knowledge of thie
present tradg, that no such traffic could be had. Ale dict.nst, how-
ever, know ow many parcels were carried by other lines.
Mr. Carruthers generally deposed that there was but little traffic
from Hawick, by way of the Annan, and Carlisle, and Liverpool
steamers. He generally agreed with the evidence of Mr. Banton.
Cross-examined—He only spoke of his own vessel, the Newcastle.
There was another, the Victoria, but he could not precisely speak of
the traffic of that vessel. He thought the present communication
sufficient for the wants of the traffic of the district, except it might
be for the coal traffic.
Mr. Piper, proprieter of the coaches between Carlisle and Edin-
burgh, through Hawick and Galashiels, examined—Said the pas-
senger traffic to Hawick was inconsiderable. There were two
coaches, the mail, and the Engineer. From Hawick, by the mail,
the passengers yearly were, to Langholm 34 ; to Langton, 40 ; to
Carlisle, 76. From Hawick, by the Engineer, the passengers were,
to Langholm, 162: to Langton, 10 ; and to Carlisle, 212. The En-
gineer went through to Lancaster, and the through traffic made up
for the small Hawick traffic. The country from Hawick was very
thinly pogalated. He thought the estimate of 3,0001. for parcels per-
fectly fictitious.
Mr. Tither, coach proprietor, of Carlisle, 'generally concurred in
the evidence of Mr. Piper. Last year the passengers from Carlisle
by the mall to Langholm were 282, to Hawick 388, and to Galashiels
and Selkirk 132. The traffic on that road was not great, either in
passengers or posting. The passengers taken by the other coach were
about 50 per cent. more than by the mail, the number of which he
had given.

theMtai... bAleuosfiltmhecaliNoe
results to which the last witness had deposed.
The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow at twelve o'clock.
rdthtißeriatutsehn,tiwonhiocfhthdiedCnoomtmimattteee to
materially
thear ilegur Tr in
the

GROUP XIV.
The Select Committee appointed to consider the merits of the Bills
comprised in this group re-assembled at the usual hour this morn-
ing ; Mr. Protheroe in the chair.

RENT ATMOSPHERIC.

The business of the day was commenced with tho general evidence
In favour of the Kent Atmospheric scheme.
_

Lord Stanhope was the: first witness called—He said he had at.
tended the meetings :at Sevenoaks, called to consider the merits of
the two schemes. The meetings were numerously attended, and by
most of the influential gentlemen of the county. At both meetings
the Kent Atmospheric line was unanimously adopted, in preference
to the South-Eastern scheme. For himself he decidedly thought the
Atmospheric line was the best line for Sevenoaks, and the best for ac-
commodatmg the county generally. He was interested in neither
line, nor would either prove of much benefit to his own property.
He preferred the Atmospheric line because it afforded the most ac-
commodation to the county and to his neighbours.
Mr. S. iyierce, carrier of Tunbridge, Mr. B. Baker, brewer of
Tunbridge, Mr. J. Chapman, of Southborough, and Mr. James M.
Richards, surveyor of Tunbridge, gave general evidence in favour of
the Atmospheric line.

Mr. Sherrad, the engineer of the line, was than called, but hit
examination was interrupted by
Mr. KEATING, who contended on behalf of the South-Eastern
Company, that as the Atmospheric Company proposed a deviating
line which would affect the Medway navigation, they were bound to
show that the consent of the commissions of the navigation had been
obtained to the deviation. The standing orders provided for this,
and he submitted that such consent ought to be proved before they
could proceed with evidence in favour of the deviation line.
Mr. Sergeant Tamest., on the other side,'urged that the consent
of the owners, lessees, and occupiers of the land near to the Medway,
which was proposed to be taken for the purposes of the line, had
long ago been obtained for the present case ; however, the commis-
sioners seemed to claim a vested right in the bed of the river, and
complained that their consent had not been obtained to the deviation
line interfering with it. But the truth was, they had no right to

the bed of the river, for all property of this nature, namel;', the
beds of navigable rivers was vested in the Crown,.and unless the
•ommissioners could show that the Crown had transferred its pro-
perty in the bed of the Medway to them, they had no right to main-
tain this objection.
Mr. KEATING replied that if the Medway commissioners had not a
right to prevent the line interfering with their navigation, they had a
right to complain that their towing path, in which they bad the fee,
simple, was unjustly interfered with, and that before the deviation
line was gone into, it should be proved that their consent had been
given to it, in accordance with the standing orders.
The room was then cleared, and after a short consultation,

The Committee decided that the consent of the commissioners
must be obtained before the deviation line could be proceeded with.
Evidence was then adduced to prove that the Medway Commis-
sioners had given a conditional consent to the deviation line, but that
the Committee decided that it was not satisfactory, and the further
consideration of the point was postponed.
Mr. Sherrad's examination was then proceeded with—Re said
the works on his own line were, or at least might be, made as good,
if not better, than the South Eastern. His own line between Lon-
don and:Maidstone was nearly a mile shorter than the South Eastern ;
between London and Tunbridge, four miles and fifteen chains ;
between London and Seven Oaks, two miles and 76 chains ; between
Seven Oaks and London, nine miles and eight chains; showing a
saving of new line, in favour of the Kent atmospheric line, of 19 miles
and 40 chains. Tho distance upon his line as between London and
Dover would be 88 yards longer than the South-Eastern line, while
it would save the making of many miles of additional railway. On
the Maidstone line there would be a tunnel 2,376 yards in length,
and on the Tunbridge line two tunnels of 342 and 2,717 yards in
length. On the whole line there were only 88 yards of viaduct.
Mr. Cocxnuan objected to the witness going into the details of the
line, as it approached Maidstone, because the Bill before the Com-
mittee did not relate to it, nor did the schedule of the Bill contain
the lands proposed to be taken for it. The fact was the line beibre
the Committee was only part of the original atmospheric scheme,
and the line entered Maidstone on a branch to Rochester, which was
not included in this Bill.
The Committee adjourned at feur o'clock till to-morrow, at twelve.