The Sun.
London, England, 1848-02-26 00:00:00

LONDON, SATURDAY

EVENING, FEBRUARY 26, 1846.

ing, nothing to do. If all these things were attended
to, not only might the income-tax be left without in-
crease, but many taxes—the window tax, and the duties,
for instance, which pressed heavily on the poor might
be removed. On the grounds he had stated he asked
the House not to agree to one item of the estimates
until after the debate of Monday evening. The Hon.
Member concluded by moving, " That it is expedient
that the expenditure of the country should be reduced,
not only to render an increase of taxation in this session
unnecessary, but that the expenditure should be further
reduced as speedily as possible, to admit of a reduction
of the present large amount of taxation."
Mr. WARD said, that as his Hon. Friend the Member
for Montrose had thrown a large portion of blame on the
naval estimates, and as he (Mr. Ward) had not had an
opportunity of making a statement to the House on be-
half of the naval department, perhaps he could not take
a better one than the present for calling the attention of
the House to a few circumstances bearing on the ques-
tion. What he wished to put to the House was this :
There had been great additions to the estimates; no
doubt, during the last ten years, without a single divi
sion against any increased expenditure —(Hear, hear.)
His lion. Friend was in his place when he (Mr. Ward)
announced the intention of Government to add 1,500 to
the marine force. They were voted last year without a
dissentient voice or a division ; and it was only when
they came to pay the bill that faults were found with the
amount of the naval expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
he made every allowance for the altered position of the
country, and the distress prevailing in the great mercan-
tile community, and he knew that great pressure was
exercised on such Members of that House as repre-
sented large constituencies. But he contended that good
reasons could be given for the increase in the naval esti-
mates, and that the country had had good value for the
money expanded.—(Hear, hear.) He was prepared to
say that when the Right Honourable Baronet the
Member for Tamworth commenced that large expendi
ture which the present Government were only following
up, he w is consulting the real interests and safety of
the country.—(Hear, hear.) He would now call the
attention.of the House to the three principal votes in
the naval estimates. For works in 1835, the sum ex
pended was 62,440 Z That vote bad been increasing
annually; it was in 1843-44, 214,0001.; in 1844.45,
298,0001.; in 1845-46, 486,0001.; in 1846-47, 527,610/.;
and in 1847-48, the present vote, it had increased to
668,0001., showing an apparent addition of 140,0001.
He said an apparent addition, because the whole
of the new works were included in one vote
instead of being spread over four, as had previously
been the practice.—(Hear, hear.) The item of stores
had increased in an equal proportion. From 426,0001
in 1835.36 they bad increased to 1,511,0001. during the
present year, and dockyard works precisely in the same
ratio. The reason of all this was that during the last
few years a new power had come into existence, for
which this country was bound to provide, not only by
substituting steam-vessels for sailing vessels, but by
building docks and factories where such works could be
carried on—those splendid establishments which the
Right Hon. Baronet had commenced, and the present
Government had completed with the consent and appro-
bation of the House of Commons.— (Hear.) The country
had paid for steam machinery alone 2,689,0001., which,
with stores, accounted for three and a half millions at
once. The dockyards, which, in 1835 were in a state of
destitution, had been renovated until no more magnifi-
cent establishments could now be found in any part of
the world.—(Hear.) We had magnificent steam facto-
ries, besides steam basins at Portsmouth and Devonport,
all of which he maintained. were necessary to the existence
of such a steam navy as was imperatively required by
such a country as this, on the principle that every
country should look to its own interest and its own
safety. That was what the present Government had
done. It was felt that it would be most perilous to be
without a steam navy in the possible contingency of a
rupture with any foreign country. Neither could proper
places for repair of crippled vessels be dispensed with,
nor had .they been complained of; until now that thy
Heuse was called upon to pay the bill.—(Elear, hear.)
Now, instead of treating the matter as any railway
company would have treated it, that was to say, as on
investment of capital, the House merely !stoked upon it
as an increase in the votes. He contended that it was
merely so much money capitalised. Taking out what
was necessary for the repairs of dockyards, there was
half a million invested in great national establishments.
Neither were these confined to this country. We had
a large establishment at Malta, where the steamers
ceuld be repaired, instead of being sent home for that
purpose. This was a measure which would result in
great economy of money.—(Hear, hear.) He repeated,
then, that this country had.reopkved vahie for:the money
which had been expended. If it could be shown that
these establishments were unnecessrry, that England
would have been secure without following the same
course as other powers in substituting a steam for a
sailing navy, then there might be good grounds for
impeachment. But the fact was, that for ten years the
House had regarded this and similar expenditure as
absolutely necessary for the security of the country, and
not only that, but there had been constant cries for bar-
hours of refuge and all sorts of demands on the part of
Hon. Members. Now, however, when the bill came to
be paid, every one found fault with the expense.—(Hear,
hear.) He asked the House whether they had not had
value for their money? They had new and splendid
works, which, being finished, would cease to be an item
of expense; and he hoped the time would soon come
when demands for them would cease on the part
of the Government. He would for a moment call
the attention of the House to the past and present cult-
dition of our steam navy. In 1635 we had 23 small
steam-vessels employed as packets or as dockyard
lighters, and propelled by 4,153 horse-power. In 1841,
when the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tamworth
carne into • power, we had 55 steamers of 9,503 horse-
power; and on the Ist of January, 1848, we had 134
steam-vessels, some as fine as any in the world, and of
35,565 horse-power.—(Hear, hear.) That was a list
which he was nut ashamed to-lay before the House, as a
mode of accounting for increased expenditure. The
Hone Member forsMontrose bad first taken the estimates
for 1835,.- and compared them with those of the
present year; complaining, that an increase was
proposed of 7,622,0001. g(llfx. Ward) had analysed
them and had endeavoured to arrive at a distinct
conclusion respecting them. The 610 item he found bad
not existed in 1835, bat for the si,ke of the great commer-
cial interests of the country had been since adopted.
Government had organized a complete system of packets,
which- were included in the Adnairaity estimates, although
properly thes&eimiralty had nothing to do with them,
being simply administrators of the will of that House.—
(Hear.) The vote for the contract packets was
611,6624 and the double line of packets to New York
had caused- an increase of 46,000/4 add to- this
61,698/. paid to Queen's vessels employed as packets,
and the packets from Holyhead to Dublin, which would
soon commence running, and there would be a total of
773.0001. for the contract service. There were besides
181,000 L which, though charged to the navy, properly
belonged to the army and ordnance. Then there was
for troop ships, wages, &c., 25,5251., and 11,000/. for
victualling the convict department, for which his Right
Hon. Frie.od the Secretary for the Home Department
was properly responsible.—(Hear, hear.) These, with
one or two other items for provisions in other depart-
ments, would make a deduction of 1,057,000/. from
the seven millions and a. half: - But,-besides all that
there was the dead weight over which the
Admiralty had no control, and which had been
added to repeatedly at the suggestion of the House.
They could not resist the appeals of old officers; but,
when the sums were put down in the estimates, then
fault was found with the Government. So it was, how-
ever, that with the help of the House the dead weight
had amounted to 1,395,072/. Take this, arid the vote for
works, which he contended should be looked upon as
permanent investments, take off 100,0001. from the rote
of the present year for repairs of dockyards, and the vote
for permanent works 588,6011, and there would be at
once a deduction of 3,041.0001. from the effective naval
estimates of the year, leaving a total amount of effective
naval expenditure of 4,685,1271., instead of 7,000,000L—
(Hear hear.) There had been in the establishment of
the steam navy, much expense incurred in experiments.
Mistakes had been committed, and knowledge had been
bought by experience. The more enthusiasm in science,
the more likelihood of making mistakes. It was impos-
sible to perfect any system without mistakes; and our
system was rapidly approaching perfection. Under
these circumstances he entreated the House to take a
fairer view of the public expenditure, and to think that
its increase was for the national benefit.—(Hear, hear.)
He entreated them to believe that there was something
more rational in it than his Hon. Friend the Member
for Montrose had represented; and that for all that
had been spent the country had received valuable con-
sideration.—(Cheers.)
Mr. OSBORNE hoped that the House would net be
led away by the eloquent speech of his Hon. Friend the
Member for Sheffield to imagine that they were merely
engaged in a debate on the naval estimates. The Hon.
Member, in his able statement, had rather forestalled the
tabours of the Select Committee, for if Government was
so satisfied with the present enormous expenditure, why
refer the matter to a Select Committee at all ? He was
convinced that no other Minister would have conde-
scended to take such a course. The Hon. Member had
exulted in the number of our steamers and their great
superiority, but he (Mr. Osborne) had been informed by
men acquainted with the subject that our steam-vessels
were exceedingly ill-constructed and not at all calculated
for the purpose intended.—(Hear, hear.) But his object
in rising was not to criticise the conduct of the Ad-
miralty, but to review, as well as he was able, the whole
system of government in this country.—(Laughter.) He
ibjected to the course taken by the Government in re-
ferring the estimates to a Select Committee. He also
objected to the increase of the income-tax, which, on its
ariginal imposition, was -described by Mr. Tierney Its a
system of indiscriminate rapine.—(Hear.) But it was
he common practice of the Whigs to rail at taxes when
in opposition, and to double them when they got into
power.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord at the head of the
I Government' had made his first exposé of his financial
Jolley in a clear and unsatisfactory speech. There was
I. no mistake about it. But being very badly received, his
-Noble Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
,litne down on the following Monday to make an apo-
'"gy. He could not, notwithstanding the Right Hon.
Gentleman's eloquence, consent to send the estimates to
s Select Committee. As to theheliefTeeadrsthoaft inthveassieonfeeorns
vhich they were founded, he
were rapidly abating. The Earl of Ellesmere's letter
sad alarmed several old ladies, and their alarm
had been
.nereased by seeing the private secretary of the
Prime Minister gazetted to a lieutenancy in the Middle-
-ex militia.—(A laugh.) He feared that the whole
system of government at present carried on was cal-
(mlated unnaturally to increase the national expenditure.
Che system pursued by the Colonial-office perhaps
more than any other required examination. The
letermination of the people was that there should be
cheaper government. It was his opinion that the ex-
penditure of the country might be reduced at least

5,000,000 or 6,000,000/ a year, without impairing the
fficiency of the public establishments. The appoint-
ment if the propene Committee, however, etas a mer-
shelving of the question. lie entreated the Noble Leed
to pause before he insisted on pressing his proposition of
in increased income-tax. The country had reached the
utmost limits of peace taxation.—(Hear. hear.) Let
the Government take a lesson from what was passing
around them. Let them take warning by what was
taking place on the Continent—where the opposition to
the popular feeling in the prevention of a dinner had
involved the destruction of a dynasty. The best national
lefetices were to be found in the hearts and affections of
the middle class, the best mode of obtaining which was
not the imposition of a war-tax in time of peace.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN was not prepared to admit that
there was any necessity for increasing the income-tax,
though he considered that a well regulated property-
tax was the fairest that coal be imposed. It appeared
to him an extraordinary course to appoint a Committee
to examine into the expenditure of the country, and,
pending the inquiry, to propose an increase to the bur-
dens of the country, before it was known whether the
maintenance of the public establishments rendered such
increase necessary.—(Hear, hear.) His opinion was,
that a considerable reduction might be made in those
establishments without injury to tke public service. He
concurred with the Honourable Member for Manchester
that there was no necessity for keeping a British fleet in
the Tagus. Then, with regard to the Kafir war, it was
unreasonable to ask the House at once to vote upwards
of 1,000,000/. upon the faith of statements only placed
in the hands of Honourable Members that day, and
which they had had no opportunity of examining.
—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) But the expenditure
under this head had been going on, it appeared, for
two years. Why was not the subject brought under
notice during the last session? By a strict exercise of
economy in all the public departments, he had no doubt
that the estimates might be reduced by three millions,
and that there would be no necessity for increased taxation.
—(Heir.) Our position with regard to France it ap-
peared was made a plea for increased expenditure. The
true interest of this country was to maintain the best
understanding with France. In this respect he believed
the policy of the Noble Lord (Palmerston), in 1840 and
1841 had been attended with unfortunate results—it had
engendered distrust, and induced France to increase her
military establishment, which increase was made the
ground for adding to our own military expenditure. It
was not only for the mutual interest of the two countries
themselves, but of Europe and the world, that England
and France should be on good terms.—(Hear.) Had
there been a good understanding between England and
France at the time, it was his conviction that the absorp-
tion of Cracow by Austria would never have taken place.
—(Hear, bear.) The occupation of Circassia by Russia,
and the success of the designs of Russia against Turkey,
might in the same way have bees prevented. Though
there was no danger of foreign invasion, there was in the
discontent of the Irish people, a source of danger which
no increase in the estimates could obviate. Give Ire-
land her own Parliament, and no fbreign power would
dare to put their foot in that country. At this moment
the people of Ireland apprehended you (said the Hon.
Member) more than they do the French. You have
treated them as enemies, and by your tyranny and bad
government you have made them such. Let them look
back to the history of the country—England had never
been strong unless she had Ireland with her—and it
was fear only, and not a sense of justice, that had in-
duced her to grant any concessions to that country. He
called upon Ministers to say how the poor of Ireland
were to be supported during the ensuing spring. The
poor-law would be wholly insufficient for the purpose.
In many districts it would absorb the whole of the pro-
perty. It was the duty of the Government to take
measures for preserving the people of Ireland from star-
station, and he called upon them to state what measure,
if any, they were prepared to propose for that purpose.
The lion. Member concluded by declaring that his best
assistance should be given to any effort to reduce the
expenditure of the country.
Lord J. RUSSELL could scarcely understand the
purpose of the Hon. Gentleman who advocated this
motion.—The Hon. Member for Montrose thought it a
matter of reproach against the Government that they
had not, some time ago, appointed.a Committee to ex-
amine into the expenditure, of the country. The Hon.
Member for Middlesex, on the other hand, thought it a
matter of reproach that it should be appointed_ now,
holding it to be an abdication of the functions of the
Government. Then, again, the Hon. Member for
Limerick had told them that he was prepared to resist
tiny increase of taxation, but called on Government, at the
same time, to propose some large grant of money for the
purpose of relieving Irish destitution, leaving Ministers
to get out of the difficulty as they might. He was at
a lose, therefore, to understand the purpose of the pre-
sent discussion. Great fault had been found in the
course of thest -debates with the • speech with which
he had introduced the budget, but it was curious
enough that not one of the propositions he had then
laid down had been controverted. He had said it
was the interest of this country to keep on good
terms with France. No one had controverted
that proposition, or had disputed that it was to
our interest to remain at peace. (Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member for Middlesex, who had not disputed
his figures, had found fault that he had stated them with
sangfroid. He (Lord J. Russell) was not aware that he
had done so. He had stated the figures, and the Hon.
Member had not denied their accuracy ; but he com-
plained that he had not made his statement with that
amount of passion and enthusiasm which, in the Hon.
Member's opinion, should have accompanied it. The
Hon. Member wished to know for what purpose the
increase is the estimates was made. The Hon. Gentle-
man should remember that there were many persons in
this country who were of a different opinion from
himself, and who complained that our establishments
had not been sufficiently increased ; that our navy
was at too low a scale ; that our army was
insufficient to meet any sudden contingencies that
might occur ; that the ordnance was not suffi-
ciently cared for, and that altogether our establish-
ments were not in that state of efficiency in which they
ought to be. To meet this charge, he had thought it pro-
per to show what had been done, and what expendi-
ture had actually been incurred, to make those esta-
blishments effective, and to show, also, that it was not
necessary to increase them beyond what he had stated.
The Hon. Member for Middlesex, it would seem, was
himself one of those who was not long since of opinion
that cur national defences were insufficient, for before
Christmas be, placed 'a notice on • the paper, of a motion
to call the attention of the House to the state of those
defences—(Cheers and laughter)--showing that, in his
view, some addition was required.—(" No," from Mr.
Osborne.) Perhaps the lion. Member merely intended
to make a speech, to prove that enough had been done ;
but, if so, the notion was rather an extraordinary ono.
—(Hear, hear) And he (Lord John Russell) had been
told that many of the Honourable Gentleman's consti-
tuents took alarm at that notice, and wrote to him
remonstrating. against what they thought his project
of increasing the armament of the country.—
(Mr. Osborne, " No.") The Honourable Member had,
however, it appeared, concealed his real purpose till
now, and it was found that he had no such intention
as that attributed to him.—(" Hear," and a laugh.)
He (Lord John Russell) must say, however, that the
ambiguity of the Hon. Member's motion was to some
xt.nt the cause of his considering it necessary to ex-
piate to the House the means of defence we had, es com-
pared with those of that country with whom some per-
sons here, and others abroad, had, without meaning, any
offence, thought it possible that a war might ensue. The
Hon. Member for Middlesex thought Government pro-
posed to delegate to a Committee that responsibility
which properly rested with the Ministry as to the num-
ber of men to be voted for the army and navy. In that
respect the Hon. Gentleman was mistaken. He believed
this Committee, like those which had been appointed
from time to time, and formerly were appointed about
every ten years to go through the details of expenditure,
would be attended with useful results as satisfying the
country that that expenditure was actually and properly
incurred, and in other respects as eliciting suggestions
for future economy. But, as regarded the number
of men proposed for the great establishments—the
army and navy—the Gouernment was responsible,
and he trusted to be able to defend the votes for the
army and ordnance as effectually as his Hon. Friend
the Secretary for the Admiralty had defended that for
the nary.—(Hear, hear.) At all events, he should not
fear to encounter the discussion upon those votes, or to
stand by them. The Honourable Member for Limerick
had, however, referred to another and a different sub-
ject. In asking the House to deal with the condition of
the people of Ireland, the Honourable Member had re-
ceived in a very ill spirit that which was, perhaps, the
greatest effort ever made by any country on behalf of a
part of its population.—(Hear, hear.) That effort was
not the doing of the Government—it was not the bene-
volence or philanthropy of Government—but it was the
act of Parliament, and the House of Commons espe-
cially, who, in the most generous manner, voted the
money necessary for averting the consequences of that
famine with-which- Ireland was afflicted, which money
was spent in what seemed, at the time, to be the most
economical and effectual manner, in giving food directly
in rations to three millions of people.—(Hear, hear.)
And yet the Honourable Member talked of the demo-
ralising effect of giving this relief to people who might
else have starred, and for which he believed the people
of Ireland themselves were grateful.—(Hear, hear.) But
while this was doing, while England and Scotland were
thus coming to the relief of their brethren in
Ireland, what was the conduct of the Hon. Gentleman ?
ing
t—o
—([lean, h.)
diWstrhuastt waansd h ed
ids doinge t
ount eanmd eo an vgosut r
fellow-countrymen ?—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Mem-
ber had asked whether Parliament would interfere to
prevent the evils of famine during the spring, alleging
that the poor-law was wholly insufficient, and that it
would be inoperative. He (Lord J. Rus,!ll) could not
agree that a rate of 35., 49., or even ss. in the pound
ought to deter the proprietors of property in Ireland
from supporting destitution when necessary. But he
was aware that the law had not been everywhere fairly
er j 'say applied. He was reading that day an extract
from an Irish.paper of an examination .that took place
in a court of justice, in which a man was charged with
stealing a sheep from a farmer, who it appeared was
himself receiving out-door relief, though possessed of
twenty sheep, three or four cows, and a good store of
barley in his haggard, while the accused, who lived
in the same parish, had been refused relief, though
he and his family were reduced to such a state of
starvation that they were discovered eating the stolen
sheep in its raw state. He said while such a state
of things existed—while persons who were in
comparatively good circumstances were receiving
that relief which ought to be given to the destitute, and
those who had the means of contributing to the rate re-
fused to do so, it was most unjust to call upon the people
of Middlesex or Berks, who had paid their rates and who
provided for their own poor, to pay an additional tax for
the relief of Irish -destitution.--(Hear, hear.) The tax
for that purpose must bo enforced from the Irish pro-

prietors themselves, and to that tax Ireland must look
;or the support of its destitute poor.—(Cheers.) It was
i•: very cxecptio*,.ubl, ea-es—eve/J(2le the property u
the country did not afford the means for the relief of the
destitute—that public or private charity could bo called
upon to supply its place.—(Hear, hear.) And let him
say one thing more. Her Majesty was some time ago
advised by a person whose memory he should long regard
with reverence, the late Archbishop of Canterbury, as it
was expected that much distress would occur in Ireland
this year, to issue a Queen's letter for a collection in the
several churches in this country. That collection it was
well known, had not been so successful as the collec-
tion of last year, or anything like it. Some 26,0001.
had been collected, which was now being divided in
various unions in Ireland for the relief of children, for
schools, and other relief purposes. But why was not the
amount collected greater? Because those who had last
year contributed to the extent of 300,0001. or 400,000/
had met with nothing but invective and insult in return,
and they were disgusted and disheartened at being held
out to the world as hard-hearted and as enemies to the
Irish people.—(Hear, hear.) He begged the Hon.
Gentleman, and others who had taken the same course,
to take some warning—to learn a lesson from these two
facts.—(Hear, hear.) From the first, that there was no
indisposition on the part of the English people to relieve
their Irish fellow-subjects when in distress; and from the
second example let him learn that violent invective and
passionate harangues, and libels upon the English people,
was not the way to improve the relations between the
two countries .—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman having
raised this question, he (Lord J. Russell) had thought it
necessary to say thus much. He could assure the
Hon , Gentleman, however, that Government was
not unmindful of Ireland—they looked day by
day to the condition of that country—there
was not a single day in which the reports from
Ireland did not attract his attention and that of
ids colleagues, and they had shown their readiness to
incur some obloquy, by not proposing a tax for Ireland
which they thought she was not in a condition to bear,
at the same time that she was paying a tax to the ex-
tent of two millions a year to relieve her poor. But Go-
vernment did consider that by obliging Ireland, from her
property, to support her destitution, by encouraging the
people to exert themselves, and the men of property to
draw from the soil that increase of produce which might
be drawn from it almost without limit—they were doing
that which was far better than repeating every year
(which was not a year of signal calamity) the large and
liberal contribution which they thought had been rightly
given last year, though, perhaps, it had not been so well
administered as it might have been; and it no similar
grant was proposed this year, it was not from indiffer-
enea to the wants of the people of Ireland, but from a
confidence that the course which we were pursuing was
that which would tend most to the permanent happiness
and welfare of that ceuntry.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR condemned the estimates gene-
rally as excessive. The increased income• tax would be
the means of uniting, for the first time for many years,
the middle and the lower classes against the Govern-
ment. He objected to the manner in which Ireland was
made use of by Irish Members in that House. Telling
the Government, as the Hon. Member for Lincoln told
them, that if they did ilistiee to Ireland they had only
to whistle in order to have 200,000 men in defence of
this country, was only part of the system which had
debased and destroyed the Irish mines.—(Hear, hear.)
He contended that Ireland would not be in the condition
she now was, of depending upon the begging letter of
the Archbishop, if past Governments of England had
done their duty towards her.
Mr. WAKLEY conceived that the motion of the Hon.
Member fur Montrose, to which he begged to recal the
attention of the House, was the most rational and con-
sistent motion that could be made under existing
circumstances ; for if the House were to go on
voting money as they had hitherto done, putting
no check upon expenditure, this country would Tory
soon be involved in a state of universal ruin.
He keenly felt the force of the lecture of the
lion. Secretary of the Admiralty. Upon him
(Mr. Wakley) at least that lecture should not be lost.
The Honourable Gentleman had told them that in•
crease after increase had taken place without any re-
sistance on the part of the House, and without a single
division. But henceforth he (Mr. %Valtley) would adopt
a course of conduct that would not subject him to such
a taunt as that. He was sure that Ministers declined to
profit by the generosity of the House, and that the time
had arrived when resistance must be offered to a pro-
fligate and extravagant expenditure of the public money.
lie considered that, in the present instance, the Govern-
ment were much to blame for not having examined more
closely into the finances of the country, and proposed
those reductions which the circumstances of the people
so much required. The Secretary of the Admiralty
would not deny that it was proposed to fix the army, navy,
and ordnance estimates at between 17,000,0001. and
18,000,0001. ; but that was an expenditure which was not
shown to be warranted by any circumstance now existing.
The motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose
was, therefore, called for by the facts of the case. Insinu-
ations were often thrown out against the Radical party
in that House. But he asked whether the leader of that
party (Mr. Hume) had not done more for the people than
the whole aristocracy of the country?—(llear, hear.)
The aristocracy were extremely active when dealing with
the national funds, but had never yet shown a disposition
to economise them. A Noble Lord had been appointed
Secretary to the Poor-law Commission, but as long as
such appointments were made so long must the people
be content with extravagant expenditure. He felt great
gratitude to the iskple Lord at the head of the Govern.
ment for his JeWiiff Disabilities Bill, and other mea
sures; but when he saw his Government proposine such
extravagant expenditure he could no:longer offer him his
support. In fact, he thought that the Radical party in
that House ought to establish themselves as a party, and
that the Hon.' Member fur Montrose ought that very
night to be installed as leader of it. If a Noble Lord
had exhibited the amount of ability and knowledge
displayed by his Hon. Friend he would be idolised
by his party ; he therefore trusted that all those
who called themselves Radicals would combine
and give to his Hon. Friend that support
which his new situation would entitle him to, and to
whom it could not but be gratifying to know that his
labours were fully appreciated, not only in that House,
but by the milliens out of it.— (Hear, hear.) He trusted
his Hon. Friend would persist in the motion he had
made that evening, and induce the Ministry to come
forward:with a remodelled budget. He should like to know
what would have been the proposal of the Noble Lord
if the country was in a prosperous state, seeing that he
had nu better than a war expenditure to propose in its
present depressed state. But he must say, in justice to
the Government, that Hon. Members in that House
were infinitely much more to blame for the reckless
manlier in which they had hitherto voted away the public
money. For his part, he would sit there, and oppose
vote after vote upon the principles of economy, retrench-
ment, and peace.
Mr. ROBINSON said, it was an absolute delusion to
vote for this motion until the means of meking good the
deficiency in the revenue were pointed out, and he cer-
tainly would be no party to it.—[ While the Hon. Mem-
ber was speaking, Lord Ebrington handed an evening
paper to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, containing
intelligence which rapidly spread through the House,
and created evident excitement for several minutes.]
Mr. FAGAN (Cprk) would vote for the motion of the
Honourable Member for Montrose, believing that if the
public expenditure were not now reduced, Ireland would
soon be subjected to the income-tax.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD also declared his intention to
support the motion, conceiving that they ought not to
vote away the public money until the grounds upon
which they were called upon to do so were fully under-
stood.

Tile CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, while
he concurred in the panegyric bestowed upon the Hon.
Member for Montrose, could not agree in the reasons
adduced for supporting his motion. It was argued that
the estimates about to be submitted entailed great future
expenditure, but if the House would consent to go into
Committee he shouldibe able to show that they were es-
timates of money actually spent. He was as anxious as
any one in that House to reduce the public expenditure,
and he would not submit those estimates to the House
if he did not believe them to be necessary for the public
service. They had agreed to refer the whole question
of expenditure to two Committees, to see whether any
reduction could be made; the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose was a member of one of those Committees, and he
therefore thought it rather extraordinary that he should
prejudge the decision of that Committee by his present
motion.

The house divided—
For going into Committee
Against the Committee 59
Majority —9B
On our admission into the gallery we found the House
resolved into a Committee of
SUPPLY.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to
move a vote of 1,100,0001. to defray the expenses of the
Kafir war. The Right Hon. Gentleman (as far as he
could be heard) took a review of the grounds upon
which the hostilities with the Kafir tribes arose in the
year 1836, and which were continued until the
s ear 1846. The intelligence which reached the Govern-
inent did not arrive until the summer of that year, and
it was soon after the accession of the preseat Govern-
ment into office that the state of affairs at the Cape
demanded their immediate attention. The intelligence
received was that the Burgher Guard had been dismissed
to their own homes. The country was in a state of diffi-
culty and revolt when Sir H. Pottinger arrived, who, as
Governor-General, adopted Daeasures which were essen-
tial for the peace of the colony, and which were, at the
same time, not the mere results of caprice. He (the
Chancel* of the Exchequer) would not on this occasion
go into details, but he would observe that he believed
that by the proceedings taken, the Chinese coffers
had been reduced, while those of England had been
augmented. On the acquisition of office by the present
Government they had telt that the expenses of this war
ought to be defrayed out of the colonial treasury. This
expectation had unhappily not been realised, though he
believed the first efforts of the new Governor, Sir Henry
Yottinger, had been directed to that object. The pre-
sent vote was asked in order to curry out preceding
engagements, and the vote was justified by the docu-
ments now on the table of the house.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME contended that the House ought to have
had in its possession the entire accounts upon which the
vote proposed was founded, and he maintained that the
House ought to pause before it acquiesced in the state-
ments which had been made in support of the motion.
Whatever might be the tenor of the dispatches of Sir
Peregrine Maitland, or any other governor, still he con-
tended that the British Legislature had not merely the
right, but the duty, to inquire into the affairs of the
colony by whomsoever those affairs might be adminis-
tered. Inquiry was necessary in order to get rid of the
imputations which had been cast out. At all events,
the House was not supplied with the information upon
which the vote could be justified ; and he therefore '