The Sun.
London, England, 1841-03-30 00:00:00

NEWFOUNDLAND.

Mr.•PAKlNGTONsaiil;;;;l;tiood the Noble
Lord opposite gave notice that he should to-night, on
the order of the deg being read for going into Com-
mittee on the Poor-law Bill, move that that
Bill take precelenee of all motions on to-morrow
night. He (Mr. Pakington) found no such motion on
the Orders of the Day, and therefore he would aok
what was the course of proceeding which the Nold!
Lord proposed to adopt ? He would remind the
Noble Lord that he (Mr. Pakington) had given
notice of a motion for the appointment of a
Se'ect Committee, to inquiro into the state of
the ooleny of Newfoundiend on to-morrow ; be
would, therefore, Eel obliged by the Neli'e Lord's
stating the course he intended to pursue in this matter.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had given notice of
a motion, that the Poor-law Bill should take preeedcnee
of the notices of motion for to-morrow. It seemed to
him a B:11 •of such importance—one of which the
House ha 1 area ly discussed so many provisions—as
also its ce:e.-.11 principle, that it was desirable they
should go on with it in Committ re for as many fillet:CS^
ye flays as possible. W regoed to the motion of
tl e Hon. G nt!eman, if he meant to discuss it, it wowed
tier t linty put nitre (Lord J. Rassil )in a difficult situation
wilh respect to the ns- t -it?elf, inependently of the
Poor-law. He (Lord J. B.uisell) had not yet received
sufliclent information on the suhjeet front the Governor
of the et,lony of Newfourdland, and therefore arty st tte-
tsent thct he might inane on to-morrow would be ne-
cessarily iinoorre would, in feet, be inoonibie
for him to ttate at present, as well as he could do in
three or four weeks hence, the course which the Go-
vernmezt i..tnded to pursue. He trustcd the Hon.
Gent'emcn would not seek to emb:rrass the Govem-
merit by pressing the consideration of his mAion.
Mr. PAKING.TON repeated that he had no wish
to embltrrass the Government, but, if the Noble Lord
shoull -press his motion, he should divide the those on
the subject.—( Herr, hear.)
Lord STANLEY said the course the Noble Lord
proposed to rake was one that bore very hardly upon
indivirtval mernb?re.—(Hear, heir.) He was quite •
awa:e the N•,oblg - Lord said last week that he
wished to press no this 1311, but on all former ooc.:-
sioas- ample notice had been given of the intention to
take precedence. If ti e question was decided io
this mac.nzr porsors who brought forward these
motions would be placed in an unfavourdile
or rather in an unfair position.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord had not play el on the votes of the House
any notice upon this subject. The Noble Lord lii.d sated
he wished to go into Committee of Inquiry, and if
so he asked the Noble Lord, whether he thought,
wh..n an Hor.. Member brought fo:w trd a motion
for an inquiry into the whole state of the eslonies
of the British-Empire, it-should be set aside without
a si,ig'e doft, x, lanati n? He (Lo:d Soinley)
did not think it light to ti.e House or to the cout.try,
or that there was any reiion to justify such a curse.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL sad he had co objection
to the rppoittinent of a Committee, or ti go into
the whole question when the matter was ripe
for discussion. Bet he thought it would be
most inconvenient end un:air to the parties concerned for
the H,n. Genre nail to-bring forward a motion on that
subject at a time when hirst.toments could not be met.
auswei• to a que.tion by an HON. MEMBER,
Mr. HAWES stste.il that-he did not intend to bring
forward his Medical R:form 8.11, No. '2, until after
Easter. - _ I

Sir G. CLERK objected to the course propose I by
the Government with respect to the order of proceed-
ing for to-morrow. It was a mot unusual proceeding.
When it was first moved that even t:n Mondays and
Filthy's the Government busilie,:s Should take the pre-
ced?nce of all oth,.:r business, it was Araogly objected
to, as an inCringetnent of the undoubted privilege of the

Lord J. RUSSELL believed the course which he
had proposed was one which hal bees already pursued
on speci it occasions with regard to important Bills be-
fore the House. He remembered that on one occasion
the Hon. Member for Montgomery, w4hing, to move
that the Orders of the Day should take precedence of
motions, strongly advocated that view of the case.
e 1 the Hon. Genthman opposite had not said that it
was not proper in any case to teke the- course which
had been proposed.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL complained that the
Hon. Gentleman proposed to iutroduce his motion in
the absence of sufficient information. He thought the
Hon. Gentleman should adjourn it till he could obtain
a full Howe and the subject be fairly discussed.
Sir R. PEEL thought the question, whether or no
bis Hen. Friend should proceed with his motion by a
speech upon the state of Newfoundland, was quite dis-
tinct from that whether the House should supersede
his notice by foregoing the order. It was, to say the
least, a dacgerous precedent, and should only be resorted
to in cases of strong necessity. A Government with a
majority might at any time take that means of getting
rid of ineonveniesA motions ; and the greater the
majority, the more dangerous would be such a precedent.
The Noble Lord bad better try and obtain the
concurrence of Honourable Members whose names
stood on the motion paper ; then there could not
be any doubt upon the matter, but he did not
think the House would be contented to etti-
blish a precedent so dangerous. With respect
to Wednesday did the Noble Lord mean to super-
sede .11 the Orders that stood before the Poor-law
Aniendno nt Bill ?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL.—No.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—So then an honourable
Member who had charge of a Legiilativa Enactment
was to have his day, but the Member who
might have a motion of the utmost importance was to
be stopped by an order of the House agreed to on a
Monday, and without noCce. That was a motion that
would e3tablish a most dangerous principle—one that
would be more dangerous the stronger a Government
wag, and he trusted his Hon. Friend would resist it by
bringing on his motion at five o'clock, and pressing it.
The Order of the Day for going into Committee on
the Poor-law Amendment Bill was then read.

On the question that the Speaker do leave the
Chair,

. POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Mr. JOHN FIELDEN rose to move that it
be_ an instruction to the Comm:ttee to intro-
-54000 a clause repealing the Poor-law 'Amendment
Act. (The Honourable Gentleman spoke in so
low a tone ofevoopiepae,ittihoantbalthough he addressed the
House from tll
seziatch near the table, it was
impossib'e to hear a single
and at times the noise occasioned of what he uttered,
need by Members con-
versingT h .
Hon,
was
d
together was so great
voice altogether.)
heris-
stood to condemn the Poor-11W
posing
burdens upon the country, in addition to thc:sme "
sioned by the Corn-laws and the bad state of theectia-
r
rency. He also contended that the House ought not
to delegate the power of making laws to any junta at
-
Somerset House, and that the Poor-laws, in order
to become effectual, ought to harmonise with the feel-
, which the present laws did (as
feel-
ings
ofsu btjheectPwclsleOneto which trhees,eicltoutsheanoug:tbtth(:::
we understood) to pay more
the House was
seemed wiling to do.— (Tile noise' .
so great at this time as to rendermthe Hon.Geillne
etm:
ber quite inaudible in the gallery). The Hoe. .
,s
man here proceeded to read extracts trout " Cobeett
Legacy to Labourers," to show the relative proportions
of the Poor-rates and Grit ermr erit taxes at different
periods. In the year 1776 the Poor-rates amounted
to one million nineteen thousand aid nip. ty-six pounds,
the Government taxes to three in (The other
extracts we were unable to catch.)—( :sear, hear.)
Tie House ought to be emeriti how they tampered with
the fe.l ngs of the English people. The people of
England were the hest people on the face of the globe
—the most honest and the most industrious and
he knew of no one in society more deserving of
sympathy than the honest able-bodied EngLsh labourer.
Yet if he could not obtain labour, and asked for relief
he wAs seat to a prison. Was not that enough to
make men violate the law ? Was it not enough
to drive men to steal, when they saw their wives and
little children perishing with hunger. If this inhu-
man law was continued Chartism would spread.
If the House wished to suppress Chartism they must
redecl the Poor-law Act. If facy did not re-
peal the Poor-law Act the Pcofile of England
would yet one day be too strong. for Them. One argu-
ment which had lietu urged by the supporters of this
atrocious law for ;t continuance was, th,t under its ad-
ministration tie rates had bccn reduced. It ti Cur rcal!),
had been any redact:one of rates the people ha.t not
derived any henefitefrom it, for it Ltd only numentea
the rt nts of landilerds. The Corn-laws were continued ;
and a high,-rate tax-ttion was still continued,
yet when the poor could not get labour or wages,
they were told they 1111.1. q come into a prison
. or die of Want. He repeated, as he had befo.e
stated, that such a law was a
disgrace to the nation.
'
TB°Bliah people were not deserving
of such treatment,
and the live
year been presented againstui it
must -be repealed. Petitions hal year after
pe-
tition was against it. The great Chartist d
they listen to the prayers of
the people? If they did ne
insist upon i.s repeal, and theybecome b;the English people would
ought to do so. So dis-
gusted had the people
ythe neglect with which
their petitions hal bean treated shat numbers of them de-
clared they would never petition the House again. The

• Hon. Member concluded by moving that it he an instruc-
tion to the Committee to introduce a clause to repeal the
Poor-law Amendment Act.
General JOHNSON seconded the motion. He had no
wish to recur to the old law, but he disapproved of the uneon-
stitutional power with which the Commissioners were invest-
ed. They had used coercion instead of conciliation. Ho ob-
jected to making poverty a crime, which was the case
under the present law. He thought the bastardy clauses
were provii)ns f,r seduction, and those clauses at all
events ought to be revealed. With respect to the powers
given to the Poor-law Commissioners, he thought it was
impossible that the Commissioners could issue an order to
meet all cases. In a manufacturing district, if a mill
sopped, 500 people might be thrown upon the parish, for
it was impossible that those who were subsisting upon a
mere pittance could save anything for the day of adversity.
There ought to be a power given to parties who were
acquainted with the local circumstances, to afford such re-
l'ef as they thought proper. But objecting to tho Poor-
law Act as he did altogether, he should support the motion
of hi; Hon. Friend.
The SPEAKER then put the question, and strangers
A etc immediately ordered to withdraw.
The House divided, when there appeared—

For the motion ..........
Ag iinst it
Majority rgainst the motion —l46
On our re.urn to the Gallery we found
Mr. WAK LE Y referring to the medical clauses of the
BLI, and Fa/ing that lt, had not the slightest de-ire of
theta intru;i ig the subject upon the House, proviied be
sh 'uld Lave an opportunity of doing so on a future occa-
sion. lie mai also unwilling to do so in the absence cf
a Lcarncd Serjeant who bad paid great ctention to the
subject, aid as it was one c f great importance he hoped
that no technical rule would be interposed to prevent its
being pro: rely dileuss
Lord J. RUSSELL said he agreed in what his Hon.
Friend had said on the impor ante of the subject. He
should be very carry that it should come on Lt a late hour,
or when the S, esker was in the chair, when it could not
be brought for and with any good effect. He was quite
rca 'y, and was desirous, when it was brought forward,
that it should be fairly discussed.
Mr. WA KL E Y was untierstool to sty, that such being
the undwr3tanding of the Hoes-', be should citf,r the sub-
ject, but he hoped he should have a full attendance when
ne brought it forwa-d.
The Weir; then went into Committee.

On cl cuss 6 Iy•ing propo(e-1,
Mr. W. .1 TTWOOD, is tl.c absence of Mr. J. Jane
na:.v after !he x ords ", any f; e7ll rule," ta inFert the
words " except rule*, (rder;, aad regulations relating t)
r: lief ( r t 'ranee of the poor." . . . .

Lord d. RUSSELL said. he proposed that the rulr►
should b: ea ered on the iniautes of the Connis,ilaers,
and ihty would then appear before Parliameut, as a mat-
t, r of course. _ _

lhe amendment was thrn withirawn, and the clause
was ordered to stand port of the Bill.
•
• Oa clru.e 7 brit-g prop.)sed,
Mr. TOWNLEY PARKER tad that he witio!d t.>
move a prtv:so to t'-.e clause, bu-, io order to do so, it
would be nec,ssary for him, in the first instance, to move
tt.e disewsion of certain words in the clause. His opinion
wap, that sufficient publicity uat not giv .n in the vatims
uti.4ll; to the orchra and reel :zi9tl3 of the Poor-law Corn-
m4sioners. There were many unions in wh:ch the rules
aid regulations of the Poor-law Commissioners did not
meet the pubis e)e, aid were unknown eveo to the board
of gaArttians, but were shut up is the drawers of the
clerks of the union. It wits his intentiun to mote this ad.
ditien to the clause—" Prt,vided al ,ays, and be it enacted,
that the Commis:i,r.ers shall he rtquired to publish elery
order, rule, or rcgulation, which the said Commissioners
shall issue after the passings f this Ac', before the same
shall come into operation in any union at least twice in the
puhlic newspapers circulated.wstain the locally of tie said
union." That would Le a wholesome regulation, i.
adove 1 ; and therefore in order that that proviso might
be added, he leiged to notvz the omission of certain words
in the clause.

Lord J. RUSSELL thought it would not be -advisabl2
that the rules should be published in the newspapers. I,
w ;old be vi•ry inconvznient to do so, ald would b.: very ex-
pensive.
Colonrl SIR THORP was surpriFei that the Noble
Lard shod oLj 7ct on the ground of expense. lie re-
r to say that there was a great deal of expense use-
le sly Intl c ed on tl e country—the salaries of the Noble
Lord and Hon. Gentlemen opposite, for instance.—
( Laugl ter.) Ile theught it would be si.it'sfactory that
publizity should be givzn to the orders of the Commis-
sioners, and be knew of no better channel through which
it cou'd be made than the county newspaper.
Mr. FOX :MULE thought the clause was one en-
tirely of a Emma e nature Suppose it should be desirable
to relax a st-ingent rule by leaving out the words now pro-
posed to be left out, they would Le deprived of all power
of relaxing the rule : and, if the advertisement in the
county papers were insistei on, such relaxation could not
take piece for fourteen days.
Af er a fe.v words from Mr. T. EGERTON and M.
GRIMSDITCH,
Mr. T. PARKER withdrew his motion for the omis-
sion of the words. _ _

The clause was then egreel to, with some verbal
amendment:, Mr. T. Parker having intimated 1.13 intec-
tbn of moving the proviso on the bringing up the clause.
On the next claws, regulating certain proceedings in
prosecutions, being proposed,
Uri G. SOMERSET thought that in criminal pro-
c2cdings tLe clause might be fiund productive of incon-
venience.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL defended the clause.

Mr. GORING and Mr. GItIMSDITCH objected to
that part Lf the clause which applies to criminal pro-
ceedings. -
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL 'defended the clause.

Lord G, SOMERSET Paid he should take the sense
of the Hou,e upou the omission of the words to which he
bad objected.
Sir C. GREY supported the clause.
•

After some further discussion, strangers were then
ordered tl viithdraw, and the Committee divided, when
there appeared—
For the clause
For the amendment 5B
Majority
_ _

Oa our return to the gallery we found
Lord G. SOMERSET objecting to that pail of the
clause which impose] costs upon the parties for disobeying
the orders of tho Commissioners. He thought there
abould be some prcviio with regard to the publicity of these
orders in the first instance.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought there ought
to be a discretion left in the Court as to cost!.

Sir G. GREY thought the introduction of the words
" if it shill seem fit," where the Court was empowered to
award costs, would be the best way of meeting the objec-
tion of the Noble Lord opposite.
Ali% J. JONES proposed to add in line sixteen after
the word costs, the words "in any civil cute." The Hon.
Member stated that his object in moving that amendment
was that the provision might not apply to criminal cases.
General JOHNSON said he did not think that civil
cases were distinguishable from criminal ones.
Mr. J. JONES thought that they were clearly distin-
guishable, and he would, therefore, press the amendment.
After some discussion, in which Lord Granville Somer-
set, the "Attorney-General, Mr. Darby, and other Hon.
Members took part, the House divided, when there ap-
rearcd—
In favour of the amendment 64

Against it . B3
Majority against the amendment —24
On clause 9 being proposed a desultory convcr.ation,
resfezt to its postponement, took place Letweep
Captain Poeta, Mr. W. Duneombe, and Lord John
Russell, when
Mr. GRIMSDITCH said that the part of the clause
which he proposed to strike out did not apply to the Gil-
bert unions. It was a part that involved a most important
question.
Lord J. RUSSELL wished to tell the Hon. Gentle-
men that they could not postpone a part of a clause—the
whole clause should be postponed or none.
Mr. GORING would propose the postponement of the
clause till after Easter. It was important to know the
time to which it would be postponed.
Mr. GOULBURN:suggested the propriety of some day
being fixed fcr the postponement of the clause, in order
that Hor. Members might be prepared for the discussion
ens
to which the subject might give 'lir.
Lreordd in J.
its RUSSELL
r e
Itvhahtenthteheclisuesewgooultdobreoudgish-
la r o; e saidr.
the Bill, Le imagined they would tate up the postponed
clauses in their order. the discussion on the present
manse would come oni late
Would give notice of it: el.%the evenirg, he thought he
being adjourned to the succeed-
ing day.
In reply to some observations from Mr. W. DUN-
Lord J. RUSSELL said
gone through by Frain night,
if the 8111 should not be
pith the remainder of ?It. tilln al he rid not mean to go ot.
ter Easter.
The clause was then postponed.
Oa clause 10 being proposed,
Colonel WOOD moved the inse •
snout es is which county tunat • talon of the words, "In
lunatic asylums b
blished for the recepion of pauper lunatics."ave been eats-
Mr. C. WYNN objected to the clause,
of its confounding schools for the p ,or
w,totir,tltuhe ground
lums. It was very important that 1 ,;
...trat..e lunatic
asylumsa-sy-
should
be establahed in different parts of the country but .
stead of mixing up the two objects, a separate Bill shouldn
be introduced, containing, coercive powers for the purpose
of establishing them. The two questions, however, should
be kept quite separate.
Lotd JOHN it IJSSELL said the reason for iatrodue_
leg this provision was the very inefficient state of the law
aHi reai ect to such asylums. There were many persons
placed in workhouses who were not provided with adequate
medical attendance. He would have no objection to sup.
port a Bi l which would improve the present system, and
with this view the Noble Ltrd said he would move that
the words " insane or" be omitted.
Lord ASHLEY thought the subject of great import-
ance Th-te had been great defects under the present
system. Muth had been done in the t eighbourbood of
the metropolis to remove the evils sshich bad prtvailed ;
and he hoped the Noble Lord and the House would direct
their attention to the subject, with a view to extend these
benefits to all parts of the country.
Mr. E. BUL I.4ER said there was a large class c f per.
sons nho were very ill provided for. He trusted that some
provition would be soon made for the it benefit.

Lord GRANVILLE, SOMERSET hoped that Bill
would shortly be introduced ; and that tho Noble Lord
would not fqrget his promise.
The omission was then agreed to.
Mr. 13. WOOD moved in line 4, after tho word "fit,"
to add, " with the consent of a majority of each board cf
guardians of such unions."
Lord JOHN RUSSELL objected to the amendment,
and was of opinion that the pr.viso which he had intro-
duced would be sufficient to prevent any abuac of the
power given by the clause.
Mr. HODGES supported the amendment.
Mr; GROTE wished it was true that the guardians of
the poor took proper care of the education of the children.

He wished it were possible for therm to do so. They could
not in the workhouse of a poor parish, when there were
but twenty or thirty children, procure for them such tre.in-
ing as was provided, for instance, in the normal school at
Norwood. Ile hoped the House would do' nothing to
modify the clause or to render it ineffective. Believing
that the object of the clause was to secure the best possible
training for pauper children, he hoped it would be agreed
to without•anysubstantial alteration.

Catholic parents, objected to have his or their children
educated in the doctrines of the Establ'shed Church, that
objection ought to be scrupulously deferred to.—( Hear►
hear.) Ho had been speaking of the children of con-
victs ; when he had been misunderstood by the Hon. Gen-
tleman he had been speaking on the subject generally, and
bad not, perhaps, sufficiently guarded himself. He always
had contended that whenever the natural guardians of a
child objected to its beng instructed in the religion of the
State that objection ought scrupulously to be deferred to.
They had no right to force on any child a religion objected
to by its parents.—( Cheers.)
Mr. LANGDALE was rejoiced to hear the explana-
ti en of the Right Hon. Baronet. From his known tole-
tent principles, he had thought that be must have mis-
undertteod what had previously fallen from him.
Mr. M UNTZ said that the Right Hon. Baronet had
not said whether children, so situated as he had described,
were to have any religious instruction in their own faith, or
whether they were to be deprived of it altogether.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House
then divideJ—

Mr. GRAHAM thought that the arguments drawn
from the school at Norwood, is which the children of the
metropolitan poor were receive t, could not apply to the
agricultural districts, with which he was best a.:quainted,
He thought that the effect of the clause as it stood would
be most injurious. He felt the greatest difficulty in con-
senting to a compulsory power of removing the children
from their own parish to distant schools, in which hey
would he separated for years, if not for ever, from all local
attachments and associations. He fe't the greatest objec-
tion to the proposed arrangement, but he did not intend to
enforce his views by any substantive proposition, or (as we
understood) by voting for the amendment.
Mr. HAWES said there were 50,000 children scattered
about in the neighbourhood of the metropolis without any
means of education. Since the establishment of the school
at Norwood numerous applications Lad been made to ob-
tain the services of children who before could procure no
employment. Ths. children in that establishment readily
found respectable persons to take charge of them. The Hon.
Member complained that no adequate provision had b.ea
male for the education of pauper children.
Colonel WOOD said that if the Hon. Gentleman's
statement was comet, the Poor-law Comn-,i:sioeers had
been very neglectful of their duty. A very I.rge sum of
money had been expeodeJ fir that purpose. —( Hear, h. ar. )
He thought that if they colt wed tee children in greet
numbers is rural eistriete, they would break up connexio is
which would be extremely useful to them in af.er life
He thought the provition would have a very p.r..1 ions
tendency, and, he would, therefore, give it nis best oppo..
shim?.

For the amendment 172
Against it lOB
Majoiity
-64
On cur re-admitsim to the gallery we found
L'rd GRANVILLE SOMERSET On his legs pro-
posing his amendment that in clause 10, line 5, after the
words " infant poor" there shouid be insertel the word.
" who shall be orphans, or who shall be deserted by thei,
parents, or whose parents or guardians shall be assenting
thcrete."

Lord J. RUSSELL did not object to the amendment.
The amendment was rgrend to.
Several verbal amendments were made in the

Mr. BRUGES proposed that in clause 10,Page5-,lir.e
39, after tht word •1 aforesAl" to insert the toliowing :
" Provided elan that such pricc'pl sum rr sutra to to
raised fur the purpose of prosi i.:g any such building or
builnings as afr.r.lsaid, and all itit-7rest thereon, shall 1c
raised by a vhc.aai poor-rare to be made en the
sereral parishei or ualunc., so united, es aft,: e_
said ; ar.d that it shall be lawful for every te-
nant frsim year to year, lia3iog such special rate,
to deduct and detain out of the rent pa}able to his or her
landlord, f:r the premises in respect of-which such special
rate is payable, the full amount of such special rate so paid
in respect cf the same premise , and every such ten-ant
shall to and is Le:eby acquitted and discbarged of end
front payrre of so much rent as such special ta.e so
paid as afoiesaid shall amount to." •

Sir FL VIVIAN said. from all he knew of t'se rural
districts, he was of (Older, that the clause would operate
very beneficially. In the ueien of which he was chair-
man ho had seen a partial application of she principle, and
the result of his experience was that it was highly advae-
tee:sous ee poor.
'Lord STANLEY said the motion of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Eouthwark was to require the conseat cf
ErUardialiS to the ineitution of certain e eablis,iments. As
the clause originally stood, it included the infirm, the in-
sane, and tile infant. The word infirm bar been ex-
plained not to mean the aged, and the word insane
t,al been struck out. The word infant only here
left to be considere His Hon. Friend behind him had
very justly stated, that under this system cennexions of
great importance in their kfter life would be broken up.
His Hen. Friend, howeses, had omitted to.notice another
(-djection, namely, that it was compulsory. The advan-
tage d r'ved from education, hoe ever great, was counter-
balanced by the eircarnstaece that the children's natural
affecions were net eultive'e I. He willingly admitted the
statement of the Hon. Gentlemen as to the street which
Had been produced upon 'he et i!dren at Norwood. He
would give to the Commieiioners paver to deal with chil-
dren who had no parents c,r n- tura' protectors, but he
would not consact to an indiscriminate application of such
a ptinciple. He,could never agree thet ilkgitimate chil-
dren had an equal claim upon the State with the children
of virtuous parents, who had been unavoidably reduce to
poverty. His Hon. Frlead the Member for Kilmarnock had
g.vca notice c5l a clause presiding that a cle:grnan of the
Church of England should be attached to these schools.
They were about to place these children under the pro-
t .ction of the State, and it was right tint they shoukt be
educated in the religion of the State.—( Hear, hesr.)
Geri forbid that be should object to receiving the ch lJrcn
of Dissenters into those schools, or to allowing them to
receive all the he refits cf the system ; but he contended
that all tl-e children should to pl.rced under the control of
a miaister or the Establi.hed Courch. With t ere rest. i
noes iuyd alteraliJaF, he should support the situ e.
Lord JO tiN RUSSELL said, whatever ameedments
he might be disposed to introdue!, he could not allow thct
when paupers asked to 'be maintained at the public ex-
penc e that they would refuse to the State the power cf
giving them a good and reigious education. H.: was
borne out in this determinatien by the condition of the
poor at the time t...ey had bee taken ieto unions.
Hear, hear.) The Noflo Lord then read a statement
of the former condition cf the poor in the Isle of Thanet
and in the Union of Chalc. The poor had ea right to
refuse to the State the power of making them Christrens.
He could not see how it was possible reasonably to object
to that view. The objection that the children were taken
from their parent., and had no opportunity of cult'vating
natural ties, was a very plausib'e objection; but he thought
the society which the children met with its such placer was
not such as would be likely to improve the morals of the
children.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the mrtion of
the Hoe. Member for Kilmarnock, he (Le:el J. Russell)
would think it an advantage that a clergyman should be
established. But al objection had already been raised on
account of the burdens imposed by the erection of chapels
in connection with the we rkhouses. Wherever there was
a board of guardians composed partly of Dissentsrs, any
additional burdens would meet with great opposition. lie
coul i not, therefore, agree to that proposition, netwith-
withraeding the benefit which it might he the means of
conferring.
Mr. GOULBUttN wished to know whether any plan
could be adopted by means c,f which, in small dtstrivti,
clergymen could be allowed to attend to the childrea is
the workhouses,.

Mr. LAW HODGES hope:! tie House would ag.c.
to the aTt2ndinent, and that hii Hol. Friend would pres:
is to a div Lion.

Lard JOIN RUSSELL said th t the amendrne ;;
would g> to put the entire rate upon the landlords. He
would it vg.4est thw the•amendment should be so framed as
to subj,et the landlords to may Lalf the rate.
The sut..,g •stiou t f the Noble Lord evxs then agreed to.
After a t”a, words from CO LQUHOUN and Lord
J. RUSSELL, on the subject of a prop( tot amendme.t
by the Hoe. Ger.ticman (M-. Colquhoun), the Home re-
sumed. The Chairman reported irogress, and obtained
Lave to sit main.
In ans,er to a gaettion from an HoN..• MEMBER,
Lord J. RUSSELL tad he did not mean to prove ay
precedence of eke all b.-fore the other orde..s of :h1 day
on to. morrow (this evenieg) after halt.pa,t eight o'clock.
COURT OF CHANCERY (IRELAND.)

_
Mr. PIGOT e--rve to bring in a 1311 t.)
further pro‘i,i,,n in relation to certain Officers in the Cwt
of Chancery in Irelind.
(Mond PERCEVAL would oppose the introduction
of 11E! BP, if it were intended to tress f:c. sr cand leading
Mire Eta c*. It ought to be printed and circulated iu
Irela before it uai pressed forward through the House.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS objected to t Lei g
brought in in the present state of the House.
Mr. PIGOT would not pledge himself nut to mcv.! the
second reading until after Easter, ha it en the motion for
the second reading it should Le desired to postpone the
discussion, he should not ot)je.,t to the puttoonemero.
Cvlanel PERCEVAL on that understanding would
not oppose the motion.

Leave was then given to h:ing in the Bill.
Mr. BARRY BALD WIN motel fx. " a Return spr-
c:fying the names f all the guardians elected under tle
Poor-law Act, of the several unions which have been t ste-
blishe l under the said Act, up to the present time ; the
}ears its xhich they were elected ; and stating the pro-
fession, trade, or calling (if any) of such guardians re-
spectively."
Sir R. INGLIS vrishel to know what could le the ob-
jeet cf such returns.
Mr. B. BALDWIN wishel to show that the guardians
were so respect able that they did nt,t need the superintend-
ence of the Comnaissioi.ers.
Mr. HA IVES could nct see how the return woull fur-
nish any information on the subject.
Mr. FOX MAULE did not oppose the motion, be-
cause ha was anxi .us to furnish every informtion relative
to the Poor-lar.

The ruction was agreed to.
Col 'Bel SIBTHO RP moved for returns relative to the
cases of Rebecca Moore, deceased, and of the child cf
Peter Ricke:s, also dec.a3ed, in the Poole Unioc. The
case was one of great cruelty and ought tl be known.
Mr. FOX MAULE opposed the motion. Ttie case
was at present under inquiry, and until those inquiries
were terminate 3, he could not consent to the production
of the pape:s.
Colonel S I ITT 11 0R P was about to enter into a state-
ment is support of l i 3 motion, when

Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to object to any
such plan.
Mr. COL QUHOUN agreed that central schools
would be a source of great benefit, but it appearel
from the Reports of the Commissioners, that Dr. Kay bad
given his testimony in favour of placing the children under
the superintendence of a clergyman of the Church of
England.
Mr. SL A NE Y rose amidst loud cries of " Oh." He said
there could be no doubt of the immense importance of
the subject. These children were and would be often
the offspring of guilt and crime; yet no fault attached to
them, therefore, even if it was a question of expense, it
was their duty to incur it. But he would be able to pi-ire
that by being liberal in their education, tl,ey would, in
fact, be saving the money of the nation, for those
poor infants who were in darkness, would be
brought to light, and prevented from cosiieg
the country expense for their punishment as criminals. In
unions there were not enough of children to provide a
good schoolmaster—the. guardians would not go to the
expense. Besides, iu the union workhouse, there was an
impossibility of giving them that industrial education which
would make them such servants as masters and mistresses
desired to have. In proof of the old system having been
a failure, in the unions of Norfo:k and Suffolk, the cost
of giving premiums along with niece poor children was
40.0001., and the masters were of a low character and de-
scription, who, in place of tak no them with the intention
of taking care df them, their only object was to get qui: of
them as soon as possible in order to enjoy the premium.
Even then, on the score of economy, they ought to adopt
the new system, for the children had been so much im-
proved in both morals and bodily health, that masters and
mistresses were anxious now to take them at thirteen 'cars
of age without anypremium —( Loud cries of " Diviclo.")
Sir R. PEEL after reading the vary int 'resting Report
on the training of pauper children, had come to the
opinion that by congeeg sting children in large numbers,
they took the only means of afferding them a good and
useful education.—(Cheers.) At the same time he Was
of opinion that, as they would make the children the
children of the State--chile the State had a State reli-
gion, they were bound to afford the children a religious
education accordiag to the principles adopted by the gtate.
—( Hear, hear.) The evi fence of Dr. Kaye, as well as
the injunc:ions given t o the Chaplain at Norwood, folly
proved the re:essity of giving children a religious edueas
lion it' they wanted their education to prove of any use to
them. Still these were the general principles—there
were and might be many cases where great injury might
be done, and gross violation of filial affection be done by a
strict adherence to the general rule. Take tb.e case of a
man, his wife and children being thrown out of work by
some sudden derangement of trade. Suppose it to be Only
temporary_; ay a week or two, or a month even—if they
claimed the right to take the children of able-bodied poor,
what an interruption of scholastic duties would take place
if the master did not know but 100 of them might be taken
away in so short a time. Yet were they to deprive those
eildrea of all education? Surely not; thee they must
have a double system.—( Hear, bear.) He thought or-
;kens, er the children of consists, ought to be adopted as
the children of the State. But he was not prepared to say
that because a woman might have been sedeted and bad a
child, which might be the only solace she had—he was not
quite prepared to say that children under such ei corn-
stances should be forcibly taken to district schcola.
He should wish to know what was the probable number of
children that would be thus educated, and, consideiiog
the expense the country had been put to in ere,:ting u ion
workhouses, he hoped the Commissioners would net press
too hardly the erection of these school/. The education
in the workhouses was not so bad now as it had been re.
presented. Out of 32 unions, 23 had sent Vie chiliron
either to national schools or oodowed schools; so that
there nave only nios left who had to provide educe ion.
These, however, were merely difficulties in the workirg
of the plan; but he was satisfied that, if they could tr2ct
schools to be under the superintendence of chaplains of the
Church cf England, they would be effecting agreat good,
and the clause should have his cordial support.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET thought the
amendment of the. Hon. Member for Southwark would
LordinjOt °lirrztheßclismsniEilirt;rusgigaensdtehdethshaot on 'the emeadment proposed by the Henl.2
he athueseful check on ail tendency to incur UtekBS expense
Knareaborough should bo taken foi fore the division.
thel
i‘slseo,
Member
cbpueogrr
stioi r
firi
elr. LANGDALE. hoped- he had misunderstood whar
eared in the Stro-e .!en of the State, should all be edu-
had fallen from th-a
chil
of the poor, leen, Hen- Baronet, that the children
of parental superintendence, and
its
appointment r f religion,eh, lie had no objection to the
st
taking
ere tTemciPl
friend;,
any regard to
a child
ull,O " but he did otject to the
might
rirlrid, and of the r,l
is Parlicaarnec it
teas
have been deprived
the religion of its
previous!;
to become
have received.
ythseehtoec;ml.t
gious instruction it
'Cuing it, in spite of its former
the State religion. If
cf
general supetrtiinc:
awful propoition ever male
not bring himself to believe that he hacr and he could
.revintol7dm.an
new c
This priunrceli understood the
Catholic I c was
"t
ergYrnen ho
strtut:d children in that
11 m
shoulda rnc e
ameantvc
tine
hadandi ogphgt toe dnHeoaant Nd(3.l. k
tendency of the school, be might not Perhaps object to
If the
that; but if it were meant to give the chaplain the exelu-
till 't
terb be
chaplain hfaopr aKi n
sive right to giving religious instruction to the children,
whether they were 'Roman Catholics cr Dissenter,, to
that he would give his most decided opposition.
Sir ROBERT PEEL had before said that if the pa-
rents objected to the children.beiag sent- to these school,
to that objectioa.they ought to defer.—( Hear.) lie had
always held that. they —4—.1113 h right to force the religion of
the Slate upon et-chilli!" the natural guardians, the parents,
objected to it; and if a Roman Catholic father, or Roman

An He Alastuatt moved that the House be counted
and, there not hetug 40 Alt.mbr.-rs present, the Huse ad.
journad at a Quarter sst One o'Cluck.

THE CONVICT MISTER.

(From the Shrewsbury Chronicle c.f Friday.)

A few circumstaeces connected with this extraordinary
1 case bare come to our knowledge subsequent to the con-
. viction of the prisoner. The Learned Judge who pre-
sided on this occasion bad scarcely reached his loegisge
ere he was waited upon by the prosecutor, Mr. :elates-
rah, who, with a feeling most honourable to his heart,
was anaiaus, if possible, to obtain a mitigation of the
sentence. He accordingly handed in his card ; but it was
returned, wi h an intimation from his Lordship, that
under the ce.curnstances he did not feel justified is grant-
ieg an interv'ew. On Wednesday morning Mr. elsekrt th
addressed a letter to his Lordship, of which the following
is a copy :
Talbot hotel, Shrewsbury, 24th March, 1841.
"My Lurd—l hope your Lordship will pardon the
liberty I have taken by addressirg you in nerd to the
unhappy man (Josiah Mister) who now lies under sentence
of death in the gaol ef this town. And although lam
satisfied thetlhe verdict of the Jitsy was a just and tree
else yet, ivy Lord, I am prornpte I by my feelinge, and
a ore,
hiian chasity, which t< aches 'to love all mer,
and to do good to these that persecute us,' moat humbly
to supplicate ycur Lordship to incline mercifully to my
prayer ; and, if it elease you, to mitigate the sentence of
the unfortunate prisoner, by Sparing has hie. I am much it:-
dined to beg your cleelency for the following reasons : viz.
—that as it bath pleased Gsd to spare my life, and to restore
me. to a state of health equally as good as though no acei-
de it had ever befallen me; for the sake of the prisoner's
youth, his respectable connections) and the Lope that his pre-
vent afflictions may be the means of reforming his conduct,
and induce him to spend the remaining portion of his life
as a Christian is the sight of Gsd, with a grateful f=eting
to his Maker, and the country whose laws Le has cffendel.
For there reasons I humbly supplicate your Lordships thet
youalwloowulidng hibepmleatsoel to prolong the life cf the prisoner, live until such time as God may,
by
in the order of rature, summon him to appear at the judg-
amejen,t3.tohurronbeo or
df
sCh
ibpr,iss t‘..e
ryMoebsotdri
cent pt
Stidf u
hiti'ablcub; eivi
at
ne
tm, y
" W. M. MACKRETH."
No answer has yet been received; but from ill arm-
tion we have obtained, we believe it is the intention of
the Learned Judge to let the law take its course; ho being
of opinitoon that rho cri‘mvee now adVert to the prisoner.s in a moral sensei was equi-
valent
Ou his return to gaol be was placed in the
condemned cell, and a person was as usual placed to
watch him night and day, Every attention, con-
sist:lit with the strict discharge of his duty, has
bean exorcised by Mr. Dawsons the Governor; and the
Chaplain, the Rev. D. Whinstore, has been unceasing
his endeavours to prepare him for tl.o fa'e which awaits
line, On Wedcesday morning he was irone3, pursw.ni
to the gaol regulations ; he Was Visited by the High Sheriff,
to whom he asserted t.ls innceeacc, and earnestly s: Lena
his iatcre•Asinn fnr mercy. This, as may he supposed,
pront'sed as far as the hon. gentleman could exert his in-
fluence, but no hope was hekl out. During the day he
continued tolerably firm ; and yesterday mornicg he sent
fa. his solicitors Mr, Jones, and at lit .t time appeared coo-
sidcrably depressed. He sill persisted in his innoceec
and suggested that a petition slp)old be addressed to the
Secretes.), of Stets far a commutstbn of the extreme pee
natty. We understand that poet on was last eight dc-
spatchel to the Merquis of Normanbye
The gene al impres:len, an impression founded, we
believe, principally on the well known severity of h
Judge MI .re whom he was We I, appears to 10, that
these p9tHens will avail the prisoner nothing, and that
ex:cation on the morning of this day Week. The
the extreme sentenee of the law will be carried into
scaffeldieg for tee front of the gaol is bdsg put ie
order, as, happily for the cause both cf justice and
humanity, the machinery of the bangittan has so long
fallen into desuetuet, in this as well as in most
other rural districts, that it requires some time to givs
it the fatal facility of operation it was wo:tt to possess
ashen the use and abuse of mita:hail punishments were
less well understood than at p:eseet. An idle rumour
was afloat in the early part of yesterday that the psi. '
sonar had made a full confession rf his guilt, To the
high sheriff, to his solicitor, the ja"cr, tee chaplain, and
any of the more
se
to every one who has yet been permit e to see him, we
behove, he continues to assert his innocence, but he has
not hitherto attempted to explain away
s
than suspieioni circumstances cen clin hint with the
transa tion of the 20th-of Augus'sg
as developed during the
trial.
The Hereford Times says that trelve months ago a re-
port appeared in its columns of a tlashii.g case at Lee-
minster, in avWce air Josiah Mister enacted the principal
character. Mr. Thomas Woodling, saddler, charged
Mists:- with stealing from his thy's:beg-house nearly 201.
in cash notes. Mis.er took his trial for the offence at our
spring assizes of Last ye a•, and was acquitted in conse-
t
quence of Weeding failing in Court to i featly the notes.
About a fortnight ago Mister wrote to our ia ormant at
Leominster, stating that be should bring an ec:ion against
him end the Editor of the Hereford Times for defamation
of character

The Temps states that the will of Mine. de Feu.
cheres ht 9 fiaslly been declared null and void, on account
of its infirmality' and consequently that her property,
'll'ol amounts to 9,000,000 x., will be divided into thirds,
one of which will go to the father and mother of the niece
whom Mme. de Feueheres intended should be her real.
unary
nethi,ng..ogatee, and who, consequently, at present gets

THE SUN, LONDON, TU.ESDAY, MARCH 36, iszil