The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-23 00:00:00

Lord G. BENTINCK said he was not satisfied with the i teen declared it to be their opinion that .e.O <tee- s S iet4 re-
explanation given by the Right Hon. Gentleman. ! (leered amendment, and there were only four distinctly in
Mr. HUME complained of the mode in which returns 1 favour of the Act. But, looking to the character of those
were furnished to that House. i witnesses, it would be found that of all those who were de-
After a few words from Mr. G. ROBINSON and Mr. puted to express the opinions of commercial bodies and
HENLEY, banking establishments, only four, three of them being
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that much bank directors, were against an alteration of the Act
of the inconvenience arising from the returns furnished to of 1844; that three eminent persons connected with the
that House arose from the fact, that departments were asked money-market were against the Act; that with re-
for returns which they really could not furnish with accuracy. spect to six persons who represented important estab-
The returns moved for by the Noble Lord would, if granted, lishments in the provinces, even excluding two, as he had
only mislead the public. stated, they were all of opinion that the Bill required amend-
Mr. SPOONER said that the explanation given by the went in the sense of relaxation of the restrictions; that one
Government on this subject was anything but satisfactory. eminent writer was distinctly opposed to the Act; and yet,
Mr. WILSON explained the discrepancy in the returns in with such a preponderance of numbers against the Act as 16
question to arise from the fact that those which appeared to 4 among the witnesses, the Committee said it was "after
under the head of the Customs were taken from the ship's a careful review of the evidence" that they had come to the
manifest, while those under the head of the Board of Trade conclusion that it was not expedient to make any alteration
were the result of careful official information of the goods in the Act. It was by force of numbers that they came to
which had gone through all the forms incidental to ware- that conclusion. The evidence received by the Lords' Com-
housing, &c. mittee was nearly to the same effect, and, with few excels;
Mr. eLACGREGOR said that some new system must be Lions, the same witnesses were examined ; but the Lords'
adopted with respect to the entry of ships in the various Committee seemed to have bestowed rather snore patience
ports of the kingdom. and care than the Commons' Committee had exhibited.
Mr. DISRAELI said he had in his hands the Custom- There were three elements to be taken into consideration as
house return, which was said not to be official, and yet he pointing to the conclusion that some alteration of the Act of
found that it was stated on the face of it that it was published 1844 was necessary. The first was the letter of the Treasury
by authority. Now, these Custom-house returns were long written in October last, which would not have been written
looked to by the commercial world as an authority. If it was had not such an emergency occurred as the Act of 1844 could
not official it was authentic. The return from the statistical not meet of itself; the second was the report of the house
department of the Board of Trade might be official, butit was of Lords' Committee, expressly declaring that the Act re-
not authentic. The Custom-house return was that which the quired amendment ; and the third was the evidence of the
merchants relied on. twenty witnesses examined on the subject before the House
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he would not object to the of Commons Committee, sixteen of whom declared them-
return. selves adverse to the general principle of the Act of 1844.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said one of these returns was The reference made to the Committee consisted of two parts;
official, the other not strictly so. The question was, whe- the first relating to commercial distress, and the second to
ther they could not make such a return as would give the the effect which the Acts then in force for regulating the
public this information, without stamping it with an official issue of bank-notes might have had on that distress. The
character. latter of these was the main subject of reference, for without
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said there could be no objection that he believed the inquiry would not have been instituted.
to the suggestion of the Right Hon. Baronet, but the mo- The question, so far as the report of a Committee could
Lion of the Noble Lord must be put in another form ; as it decide it, had been decided, as he had already shown, in
stood it would lead to an impression, that there was error on two opposite ways; and his object in then addressing the
the part of those who furnished the returns. The fact was, House was to call upon them to declare that, after all the
that the Custom-house returns were earlier in point of date, events that had led to the inquiry, after the nature of the
the other more accurate after the sugars were weighed, and inquiry itself, after the result of that inquiry in another
their true quantities ascertained. place, this subject should not be allowed to sleep—(Hear,
Mr. HERRIES thought it ought to be explained how hear)—that it should not be cushioned—that it should not
discrepancies so great had arisen, as a difference between remain merely as an expression of an opinion of a Corn-
-9,0001. tons and '20,000. mittee upon the table of the House; but that the House
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he would come to some solemn deliberation upon the subject, so
would make inquiry from the Customs department to ascer- as to satisfy the country, who were looking to them with
tarn how the discrepancy arose, and whether the return was great anxiety on it, either that the belief which so generally
correct. prevailed that the Act of 1841 required some great change,
Mr. BROWN said the sugars on their shipment in the so as to enable them to meet another great crisis, if such
West Indies were nit accurately weighed, and that would should unfortunately arise was erroneous, or that they were
account for the difference. prepared to make such a change in the Act as to give the
Lord G. BENTINCK then consented to withdraw his mo- country confidence in the existing monetary system.—(Hear,
tion, which was accordingly withdrawn. hear.) When he proposed in the early part of the sesssion
COMMERCIAL DISTRESS. that, pending the inquiry, the House should suspend the
Mr. HERRIES rose to bring forward the motion of which
restrictive clauses of the Act of 1844, he was met by two ob-
jections,—first. that there was a Committee of Inquiry into
he had given notice, on the subject of commercial distress. the subject, and that therefore he ought to wait for its re-
He did so with reluctance at this period of the session, but port, and, secondly, that Parliament was then sitting, and
he felt himself compelled by a sense of duty to bring the sub- uld be able to give relief by relaxing the operation of
the Act in case of any emergency. But what washe
ject before the House, and in doing so he hoped to be favoured
told now? To rely on her Majesty's Ministers, who were
with their indulgence. The motion he had to submit was as
ready to do again what they did in October last, if
follows :—" That this House resolve early in the next session there should be any necessity for it. His reply to that was
of Parliament to take into its serious consideration the re-
that it afforded him no satisfaction. They did not interfere
Corn- ports from the Committee of this House, and from the Co-
in October last till infinite mischief was done; they had no
mittee of the House of
of
the to this House, ap- right to interfere till great mischief was done • and this was
pointed to inquire into the cause of the recent commercial die-
not a state of things that mercantile men would be satisfied
tress, and how far it has been affected by the law for regu-
with.--(Hear, hear.) Was he asking too much, then, when
lating the issue of bank-notes payable on demand." He felt
be said that the House ought not to separate before acknow-
assured that if it was understood in the country that this sub-
ledging the importance of coming to an early decision on the
ject was to remain as it now was, without any further discus-
subject ? At this late period, when many Members had left
sion during the present session, it would have a most unsatis-
town, wearied of a session which, " like a wounded snake,
factory effect upon the publicmind. He could not exaggerate
dragged its slow length along," and which people were
the importance of this subject; and he was certain, therefore,
They
ibeginning to fear would be interminable—at this late period
that it would receive all due attention from the House. The
Lie could not venture to bring forward a specific motion on
were all aware that in 1844 the then Government felt them-
the subject, but he did not think he was asking too
selves called upon to revise and reconsider the engagements
much in calling upon the House to say that earl,'
existing between the Bank of England and the public, and
next session they would take this great subject
that they proposed a most material alteration in the nature into their serious consideration. He could not Wo-
of these engagements, and in the regulations that governed
gine upon what ground this could be objected to. Were
the currency of the kingdom. The measure of 1844 was in-
they to be told that there was to be no change in the Act of
traduced by gentlemen of the highest influence and autho-
-1844? If so, the country would know at once what to
rity ; it was supported by great eloquence and power, and
took to. The House might rest assured, however, that what-
received the approbationot the House generally, though there
ever might be the majority on the present occasion—what'
were many exceptions. It proceeded on the assumption that
everl meanst might be taken. to stifle further discussion on the_
it was necessary to introduce some stringent regulation in
order to govern the currency of the country, consisting of subject —there was a majority elsewhere that would not allow
the question to rest—(Hear, hear)—and that even in that
House there were. Members who would consider they were
issues of bank-notes payable on demand, so as to prevent
certain evils which were assumed to be at the bottom L-1
neglecting their dut • to this great commercial country, if
of the commercial convulsions experienced before that
theydid not stand to provoke a discussion on it as
forward 3
time. It was assumed that to the nature of the issues
of the Bank of England those commercial convulsions early as pobs‘sible next session, The Right Hon. Gentleman
were mainly owing, and that by certain alterations concluded
iproposing his. motion.
they might be prevented for the future. The new M. DRLI MOND said that the Right Hon. Gentlemen
who had just sat down had thought it right to 'serve up. t°
measure, it was said, would prevent the evils arising
them on that, the 22d day of August, a rechauffe of a bates
from the too frequent fluctuations in the value of money,
debate, a farce which,
. under the best of circumstances, be Olt
and would at the same time put an end to undue mercantile
speculation ; and, as a climax to the advantages that were to Drummond) considered to be exceedingly uninviting, ands
_ pecially so at this. late period of the session.—(Hear„
beee
be derived from the measure, it was said that it would effec
One reason which the Right Hon. Gentleman assigned w't
tually secure the convertibility of the bank-note. There
pressing for an early reconsideration of the question was, tba-
were, however, many who did not concur in these favour- they might come to some final settlement. Now, considering
able anticipations of the Bill of 1844, and who thought they
that this was a question which had been in dispute for the
saw in the machinery of the Bill the cause of positive dan- last 150 years, he, for one, entirely despaird of eel
ger. It was feared by some that the proposal to divide the
seeing a final settlement of it.—(Hear, hear.) The Rig'_;,
Bank into two departments, viz., the issue and the
Hon. Gentleman, in his analysis of the evidence, had dem"
banking departments, would not only not answer the
greatly upon the fact that a majority of bankers and Wild'
purpose for which it was intended, but might lead to
inertial men had objected to the Act of 1844. This won
great and difficult crisis in the commercial affairs of the
have formed an equally valid objection to the bullion reP°l.
country. Time had now brought to the test the differ-
of 1810, but he considered that the value of the evidence o
ences of opinion which were then expressed. The course of
bankers and commercial men on this subject was exceed'
events within the short period of three years brought the ..
ingly questionable, and was the last that ought to be 113
working of that measure completely to the test, and fully
ceived as an authority on it.— Hear, hear.) He thought it
proved how well founded were the objections which had been
would be unwise in the House to pledge itself to what it
urged against it. It might now be declared beyond all pas- should do on a future occasion. Sufficient for the sessio°
sibility of doubt, that that Act had not succeeded in pre-
were the debates thereof—(Laughter)—and, for his part,
venting undue and extravagant speculation, for three such
should certainly not promise that next year he would goiew
years of extravagance and speculation as those which fol-
this subject again.
lowed it had never been known in the history of the world.
Neither had it prevented extraordinary fluctuations in the Mr. NEW DEGATE hoped the House would not be 161
away from theeproposition of his Right Honourable Friel!
value of money, for within a period of eight or nine months the Member for Stamford by the flimsy pretences of el
they had seen the interest of money at three per cent. and at
Hon. Member for West Surrey. Hon. Members inigi.'„
ten per teat.—(Hear, hear.) Certainly the note had never
attempt to laugh this question down, but it was not le
become inconvertible, and he hoped it never would, but it their power to do so. He begged the House to consider the
was impossible for any one to show that its convertibility
present position of the country. It appeared that an 11100;
Milt
sheen secured by this Act. Thuxcpsrime of the last
ing deficiency had lately taken place in the Lancelot MIS'
____ ____ e...„ ee ........ sue u e, r c 1 pateu from
snouidof our o.ports, and he feared'that if, unfortunately, tb
prove a bad season for the corn and potato crops,
the machinery of the Act were but too real. Ti,,, value li
events of the mouth of October were sufficiently fresh
we should not only have to encounter pressure like that of
in the minds of all, and would long be remembered
last winter, but our difficulties would be greatly enhanced
by the mercantile community; and it was therefore un-
He asked the House, then, whether they would inflict upon
necessary for him to go into the details of that period
the country, debilitated as it was, a recurrence of the die'
It was sufficient for him to state that the Government were e
compelled to step in and suspend the provisions of the Act asters of last year, without holding out the hope which the
proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
of 1844, and that this proceeding was hailed by Parliament
Stamford conveyed, that they would be ready to consider
with satisfaction.—(Hear.) On the present occasion he
this great question early next session?—(Hear, hear.) 11,
would confine himself to the restricting clause of the Act.
found that, from the sth of July, 1844, to the sth of July
His object was to impress upon the House the necessity of
1845, the real value of the exports of British and Irish
assuring the public that they would, at the earliest time
manufactures and productions was 59,076,9871, and the ot,
they could undertake it, deliberately consider this subject .
with a view to determine whether that Act of 1844, so far vial value 132,862,1191.; that from the sth of July, 18454
the sth of July, 1846,. the real value of our exports `s
as restrictive measures were concerned, ought to be rtained,the
38,691,822/., and the official value 133,213,7 i 11., avers_
modified, or repealed.—(Hear.) The Government had pro-
of the real value being 58,884,404/., and the official vfeero,
posed and obtained the appointment of a Committee to
133,087,9451. He found also, that from the sth of Julsele'd
consider this subject, but the only effect of that step had
to the sth of July, 1847, the real value of our expoiterewe-
been to throw off the discussion of the question to a distant
58,162,465/., and the official value 128,974,3571 ; that "o:
period of the session.—(Hear, hear.) One of the most re- the sth of July, 1847, to the sth of . July, 171,,
markable features of that Committee was its composition.
the real value was 53,735,064/., and the official we•-:
iandthetheaveeffiraegiael
voafluetblenroe2a6l
40v8aLlne Th.Fitirs'
Of the twenty-six persons comprising it, eight or ten were
51352,9,03878,7,464519./.,
opposed to the object of inquiry, and nearly all the others
appeared, co,nss3e7qiuently,thae falling off in' ' r expors%
were at the disposal of those who had the management of
the Committee.— ( Hear.) The House of Lords also appointed
the second period below the first of 2 945 6e40u1. real o'-ell'
a Committee; and after a long lapse of time they had now
and also a diminution of • " ee • l VIII°‘"
two reports, and it was to those reports he wished to call the
been the diminution in the
of only 3,ollqfq.uuaa4nBntdittlytyh,
aodlr otfhteheproinacec,iaas ,b 600.00
attention of the House, as affording the strongest possible :,. instead o , 7,364 ~ which would
oar
cafe; by the real value, remained the same as in the fisf
period. As it was, this showed a depreciation of,sevellat,bor 0
grounds for his motion. The Committee of the House of
cent., but if we compared the exports of the two 'ears
Commons reported that the evidence which had been given
the sth with
of July 1846
was very contradictory ; and he would show that it was un-
lfast period doubtedly so. They also reported that the beneficial effects
465/.
each other, we should find that we exP°o4l,
. „ to the sth of July, ,Ioel
of the Act of 1844, ILS regarded the issues of country banks,
had been admitted, and that though some witnesses had sue-
, 5r8741
2t,
Bested
alterations, very few had proposed any alteration in real value and 128 9 4 5 1 official valigee,
and from the ' ' 7 '3
7 . '-
the general principle on which the measure was based. The sth of July, 1847, to the sth of JuiY• eg
53,735,064/. real value, b 0 ,
Committee thought it should be left for the Government for
the time being to take such measures as might be thought ae of real value of 4,407,4011., and official Ti ,eil
3,104.102 t. Thisshowed es . .
best calculated for any such eigency as might occur; and a falling off in our exPo.,e the
best below
they did not think it expedient to make any alterations in year, last year of 4,407,401:. in real value, whiL teis
the Act of 1844. The opinion of the House of Lords' Corn- o mai value (the test of quantity) showed an increase ileee •
mittee differed very materially from that of the House of Com- year over last :year of 3,104,102/. in quantity, indicating
mons' Committee. The recommendation of the House of Lords' depreciation of 26 per cent., or about 13,000,0001.; 5001
Committee was to the effect that the principle on which the we added to this the diminution of the real value, or money
/0
Act of 1844 should be amended was that of a discretionary received for the exports this year below that of last ranee(
power to be exercised by the Bank of England in cases of should find a loss upon the export trade of this years& os
exigency. Here were two Committees reporting in opposi- 17,000,000/. as compared with last year.—(Hear, hear.)oefes
tion ; one thinking it better to leave things as they were, hoped the House would not be tempted by the Hon• it tee
the other thinking that the Act of 1844 ought to be ber for West Surrey to laugh off this question and inesen'oar
amended. He would show on bow slender a foundation the distress which the country had suffered. The Hon. Ll°
tern of the Commons' Committee rested; and he must man was proceeding, when
give credit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the great An HoN. MEmBEE moved that the House be countedestf
dexterity and indomitable intrepidity of his management. Strangers were accordingly ordered to withdraw, but '
There were six Members intimately connected with corn- Members were found to be present, and 0011.
martial affairs in the Commons' Committee; and it was re- Mr. NEWDEGATE resumed his argument. The, been
markable that of those five voted always with the minority. Gentleman said that he would take the hint which Tadue 01
But what was the character and effect of the evidence? Peo- given, and sooner than that any abruptlermination o`e ell
as
out of doors could not be expected to read the evidence so discussion should take place, hewwolduld at once resnnivioeed
as to satisfy themselves of its true bearing, and therefore seat, apologising to the House for having so long ties soap
he should give a brief analysis of it. The Committee exa- on their attention, and trusting that they would not "te to
mined twenty-six witnesses on the two subjects of icvestiga- themselves to be deterred, by ridicule or by attelnPot
tion. Of those two were examined exclusively on the sub- count out, from the consideration of a subject theird the
ject of the East India trade. Deducting ithem, he would lect of which they could not themselves justify, ne
divide the remaining twenty-four into five classes. The people of England would not excuse.—(Cheers.) ,t tbs
first consisted of persons delegated and selected by The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said tt eel
large commercial bodies to represent them and ex- Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down need not M. re'`e., itt
apology for addressing the House on the subject leel°';glo
press their opinion before the Committee. Mr. Bevan
was selected by the London bankers; Mr. Birkbeck for no independent Member who sat in it had a better 0101
was selected to convey the opinions of the country bakers; to do so, as none had paid more attention to it, or Wald oe!
Mr. Kinnear was deputed by the Chamber of Commerce, competent to speak upon it.—(Hear, hear.) He e°°_',elsiel!
Glasgow ; Mr. Macfarlane by the Chamber of Commerce, agree with the Hon. Gentleman, however, in the_urvers
Edinburgh. These four witnesses were of the same opinion that the comparison of the declared or of the offi.eia'se °
with respect to the Act of 1844, attributing to it the effect of of our exports had so much to do with this question
having considerably aggravated the commercial distress of appeared to think it
r, had. that
eel '- •
NI . NEWDEGATE said that he had only addu e the
1847, and stating that it required to be amended by the
comparison to show the extent of the depreciation -
introduction of some power to abate its restricting regula- •te
value of our exports.—(Hear.) „ ao ,
tions. The second class consisted of persons presiding over The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER-ePee" the
large commercial and banking establishments. Of those concurred, at the same time, in the • rtanee -id. be
there were eight; three represented the Bank of England, great impo.___ in idt,
subject which had been brought
including the governor and deputy-governor; one the under their notlc°e,o pelt
by no means denied the Riht Hon. Gentlenwee id
Bank of Ireland ; four others represented different bank- Henries) right to bring on this early is be
et
ing establishments ; Mr. Anderson, the Union Bank ofquestion early
that be 0) of
session if he pleased ; but he
Scotland; Mr. Bell, the City of Glasgow Bank; Mr. gain anything bypledging could not think.e4 pretein
Murray, the Provincial Bank of Ireland ; and Mr. session to take the that House 14"1.00.. to
Bristow, the Northern Bank of Ireland. The witnessesquestion into its. "leses_ poleeto'eet
who represented the Bank of England steadily supported the the next, inasmuch as he would have it in hie Ili
bring it forward himself in the session of Per- GO'
Act of 1844. Mr. Anderson, Mr. Bell, Mr. Murray, and next . s 000. to
as he had in this. H
Bristow were most distinctly of opinion that the Act e must say that the flight e"
:, the °c'fio°
tleman had not.
required amendment. The third class consisted of indi-ehis
.ene single reason
sal e
it ,001
should assent t
yiduals of great eminence and experience in the money- motion, though he had saw '''' eeas'oe
inconvenient to discuss resent o ,
market of the metropolis—Mr. Gurney, perhaps the greatest this subject on the pr r woo
money dealer in the world ; Mr. Bates, a partner in the great so far as any practical results were concerned. Undoroe
circum t conclude the few (wee
house of Barings' ; Mr. Horsley Palmer, who thought it in- , e
tiore-es. _ to
expedient to continue the provisions made by the Act of n had to make by moving the previous ques roofs. it
1844 with respect to the Bank of England. The fourth class hear)—because that motion would best give e.'eee tbe'es
the opinion which that House had ever entertain' sel/
consisted of persons engaged in banking from provincial .
towns. There were six gentlemen examined who were con- was highly inconvenient that they should pledge The
corned in manufacturing or banking establishments in the in one session, as to taking any subject into their ~,,,, elletbe
• Mr. Pease represented the manufacturing and
provinces. tion at an early perisd of another.—( Hear, hearer
acting e
ecti°- oe
Hon. Gentleman hadgone into some discussion re)P use 6
mining districts of the north in the neighbourhood of
Durham ; Mr. Hodgson and Mr. Turner, the one a banker formation of the Committee which had eat i
Exchequer)t° (elf
and the other a merchant, were examined from Liver- this subject, but he (the Chancellor of the rge forr° ef
pool; Mr. Gardner, from Manchester; Mr. Salt and Mr. he ought, by that time, to be acquitted of these
__nunitteet
01
blunts, from Birmingham; they all expressed an opinion brought against him, that he had formed v°
t of the; je?,ioo°
adverse to the provisions of the Act of 1844. He should Geutlemen notoriously pledged to the support
tbe d's."-riri#
exclude, however, the last two witnesses, as being op- 1844 ; fors if any Hon. Member would look aid tad the Pbe f
posed to the Act of 1819 as well as the Act of 1844. The which took place in that Committee, he wow,
niy carried eee,
fifth class consisted of those gentlemen who were de- cipal question decided upon to have been a.
_,. tion. I...ien'ot
scribed in the report as theoretically acquainted with the majority of' two.—( Hear, hear.) But thebel:33"e
that it s/r to
subject under the consideration of the Committee, though tleman's idea of a Committee seemed to its own, bate`
not practically engaged in business, namely, Mr. Jones Loyd, judgment oi . t any, vs
to exercise any discretion or ju
_d without inio ,
Mr. Tooke, and Mr. Taylor. It was hardl - y necessary adopt, however foolish they might be, an , d the opt e'
were founue ,
to state that Mr. Loyd was as strong a supporter of the Act gard to the ground on which they
Clear, hear. wasl' eot
of 1844 and an opponent of alteration as the Governor and of the witnesses examined before it.— rtees
if( a Com In ittee joritf
Deputy-Governor of the Bank of England. Mr. Taylor was appeared to him (Sir C. Wood)ttehtateopinions of a n:joitee
opposed to the whole monetary system of the country, to the to exercise a judgment opposed tare opinions
apt Comm
t4l
Act of 1819 as well as the Act of 1844. Of the twenty-four lof its witnesses, it would be useless
d only nee Ave)
witnesses nineteen were against the Act of 1844 ; but there deliberative body—(Hear, hear).--411,
t as a . the evidence,b;,e
was one, Mr. Macdonald, whose evidence be abstained from i appoint a .
short-band writer to take down at the sat
of • 'on
be e it.
He (Sir C. Wood) was not opinion toyerY gko
adducing, and there were three whom he excluded from view, 1 - for *
pointrnent of .
these Committees had been of an
e vide
ace I"
as opposed equally to the Acts of 1819 and 1844; twenty re- advantage. He did wish, however, that th
mined whose testimony was to be weighed. Of these, six- adY--