The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-26 00:00:00

ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

On the motion that this Bill be read a third time,
The Earl of HARROWBY objected to the power
given to the company by this Bill to run steamers in
connexion with their line to the Channel Islands, and
the coasts of England nod France. It was a monopoly
which ought not to be given to any parties, and the more
especially to railway companies. Moreover, it was an
improper application of railway funds. He should there-
fore move the omission of that part of the preamble of
the Bill which.sanctioned the company becoming proprie-
tors of steam-boats.
The Duke of WELLINGTON thought railway com-
panies ought not to have the power of establishing
steam-boats in connexion with their lines, and he should
therefore support the proposition of his Noble Friend.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS, as a member of the
Committee to whom this question was referred, vindi-
cated the decision of the Committees in the cases of the
Dublin, Chester, and Holyhead, and the Brighton and
South Coast lines. • • With respect to the London and
South-Wczdern Company, the Committee had permitted
the purchase of steam-boats for the traffic with conti-
nental ports solely for the purpose of increasing the
amount of public accommodation and the facility of
transit. •

Lord MONTE AGLE supported the amendment. His
experience of railway companies had shown him that
their plan was first to get a terminus at a seaport, then
to secure the port, and finally to monopolise the water
communication.

The Marquis of WESTMINSTER supported the
clause as the only means of securing regularity of com-
munication with the continent, a point which all previ-
ous steam-boat companies had failed to effect.
The Earl of MINTO feared that the House had been
taken somewhat by surprise by the Noble Earl's amend-
ment. Would it not be better if the Noble Earl were to
postpone the discussion to a future day?
After a few words from Earl ST. GERIIANS and the
Earl of WARWICK, in vindication of the decision of the
Committee. _ _ _

Lord BEAUMONT opposed the clause as a question
of principle, but the South-Western Company would not
be defeated in their object, as they could form themselves
snto a separate company for steam-boat purposes.
The Earl of HARROWBY declined postponement,
seeing that all the facts were fully before the House.
Lord REDESDALE complained that no notice had
been given of the opposition intended. He concurred
with the Lord Privy Seal in thinking that an adjourn-
ment of the debate would be desirable.

After a few words from the Marquis of LANS-
DOWNE,

The Earl of HARROWBY consented to the adjourn-
ment of the debate until Thursday next.
The House adjourned at a Quarter past Seven until
Tharaday next.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 25.
POOR-LAW UNION CHARGES (No. 2) BILL.
Mr. CHARLES BULLER (in continuation from
our Afternoon Edition of yesterday)—said he had no
wish, in making the proposition for union rating, to pre-
vent owners of estates in different parishes taking that
direct interest which they now had in upholding the
condition of the labouring classes. The Hon. Member
then observed that the present law of settlement—the
power of removing paupers—was a great hardship
upon the poor, and he trusted that no long time would
elapse without Parliament relieving the poor man of
that great evil. He believed that a great change, affect-
ing the condition of the poor, might be made without
interfering with the general principle, that the charge
for the resident poor sould be thrown on the particular
parish in which they had resided and laboured all their
lives. He proposed simply now that parishes should
at once cheerfully submit to the extension of the rate over
a whole union. It was provided in the Bill that
extra-parochial places should be chargeable with their
own poor, but there wes a modification to enable them to
join with another parish, instead of keeping up a sepa-
rate parochial rate. He was perfectly aware that some
parts of the Bill would be considered objectionable, and
he trusted that the House would now consent to the
second reading, in order that they might discuss the de-
tails of the Bill in Committee.
On the motion for the second reading being put,
Mr. HENLEY opposed the Bill. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had stated that he had no wish to break down
the present parochial system, but he (Mr. Henley) was
one who entertained the opinion that such would be the
effect of the present Bill. If the parochial system which
had been so many years established in this country, and
upon which large purchases of property had been made,
and long leases taken, was once departed from, he was of
opinion that the- House would eventually be obliged to
grant a national rate for the maintenance of the poor.
The Hon. Gentleman had given an analysis of charges
which he thought ought to be thrown over a larger area;
but he had brought forward no argument to show that
such an arrangement was either advisable or necessary.
II e objected tothtehrwohwoinlegutnhieons.u_pTphoeryt
wereo f
the
movables over
this Bill, to extend the systetnwf9trhletzinignttheerersattes, aria if
they continued to tamperl 1
would be
people as they
hadoneateuilylivedrosnael done,
sytis'teeym of rating.
obliged to concede
He wished now to offir
part of the Bill which realatfeedwtoovbsaegrrvaanteioyn.s The Right
Hon. Baronet seemed to think that the liaeglraaw affecting
yfrecting
in of the
present day was not so much owing to
t
t they was
must
tered; g
vagrancy as the manner which that
law
but in dealing with this subject
back to the events which occurred some soemnentehaqirgutreeeneaenteornffotuhe
amountr-
teen years ago. At that time, .
depression in the manufacturing districts,
of destitute poor were thrown upon :all trhaeisleanr,geagtoasivnnsst
in the country, and a great outcry
the then system of poor-law relief,
and the
led to the establishment of the vagrancy
laws,which ultimately
been
taken of certain regulations for the reliefh ofthe
camel poor of parishes. Those regulations
had
taken advantage of by the idle vagrant. and a monstrous
abuse had sprung up of parties, pretending to be desti-
tute,v',
going from parish to parish and
levying
contributions upon the parochial funds. The -udgn.
t
Honourable Bsrouet proposed to remedy this evil
by requiring; relieving officers to be more cautious in
the selection of parties to whom they administered re-
lief, but he warned the Right Hon. Gentleman not to be
too stringent in the regulations he inflicted on relieving
officers, or many parties who might be really deserving
of immediate relief would run the risk of dying of star-
vation. He thought if the relief of the casual poor were
placed under the control of the police fewer frauds
would be practised upon the parochial authorities by the
sturdy vagrant than there were at present. Vagrancy
had always been considered a crime in this country, and
he could see no reason why his suggestion should not be
adopted. At all events, he doubted whether the boards
of guardians would pay much attention to the subject.
Boards of guardians paid very little attention to any-
thing but the pounds, shillings, and pence, and as this
Bill would extend the charge of vagrancy over
a largo area the expense to each parish
would be reduced, the matter would be neglected by
boards of guardians, and the natural result would be an
increase in the vagrancy of the country. Referring now
to other parts of the Bill, he wanted to know upon what
principle of justice the man who had a yearly income of
100/. derivable from land, had to pay 251. towards
the maintenance of the poor,funds
and the man
nothing.
th
who received 1,0001. a year from
the ll ns
arils paid
Why should a coal-mine contribute
port of the poor and a lead -mine not s
These were'
sup.e were
anomalies in the law which oughttetmo be remedied with-
of rating; for in
out delay, and so ought the system
fajEwN Ia primricultur.al districts of t e south of England
a I Meurer, with a family of four children, could
...<•ees.----/--- oarearn by honest industry 10s. a week, but if he went
~,, _ intothe workhouse :._ --; -€----)
(----,
,:.,,,..,„..::,..i.expense of ts. Bd. per week per head, so defective was the
ri •• - system of rating and managing the union workhouses.
. He did not think that bit by bit legislation, like the
.tSi .1 S

Bill, was calculated to do any good, but he firmly be-
lieved that it would do great:harm, as no one could tell
where it would end. He believed that this measure
would only increase the evil and was not
calculated to heighten the opinion of the country
towards the House. He believed thot the effect of
the Bill would be to throw on agricu itural districts
those burdens which had hitherto been bo me by towns.
He could not see the justice of such a meatwe, and be
should therefore oppose the second reading, and move
that it be read a second time that day three m.inths.
Mr. RICE moved the adjournment of the deb.o2.
Mr. C. BULLER said if it met with the appro,!astion
of the House, he should propose to resume the adjourned
debate on this Bill on Thursday morning next, at twel,ve
o'clock.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER said that the Bill was a most
important one, and he did not believe it could be done
justice to in the present session.
The debate was then adjourned to Thursday next at
twelve o'clock.
PAROCHIAL DEBT AND AUDIT BILL.
The Committee on this Bill was postponed to Thurs-
day next, at twelve o'clock.
ECCLESIASTICAL UNIONS.
The Ecclesiastical Unions and Divisions of Parishes
(Ireland) Bill, was read a thirtime and IRELANDassed.
PUBLIC WORKS ()
The report on the Public Works (Ireland) No. 2 Bill,
was brought up.
The House then adjourned to Five o'Clock.

The House resumed at Five o'clock.
On the motion of Mr. GLADSTONE, the Farmers'
Estate (Ireland) Bill was ordered to be re-committed to
a Committee of the whole House on Friday next.
Mr. 11. HERBERT presented a petition from the
county of Kerry, praying for an inquiry into the defal-
cations of certain savings' banks in Ireland.
Mr. MONSELL presented a petition from Limerick
praying that some measure might be adopted to prevent
the desertion of seamen from ships in the port of Li-
merick.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from Manchester
in favour of superannuation allowances to officers of poor-
law unions.
LAW OF MARRIAGE.
Sir R. H. INGLIS, a Being the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman the Member for Bate in his place, wished
to ask him a question relative to a notice of motion he
had given for to-morrow. The Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had a notice en the paper to the effect that
he intended to move for leave to bring in a Bill to alter
the sth and 6th of Wm. IV., relating to the degrees of
affinity, and he should be glad to know whether the
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman intended to 'perse-
vere in that motion.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY said the present law of
marriage was certainly in a most unsatisfactory state,
but as the report of the Committee which had been
sitting upon the subject could not be in the hands of
Hon. Members to-morrow, he proposed to postpone his
motion till one day next week. If, however, Govern-
ment would take the Bill up ho would readily surrender
it into their hands.
Sir G. GREY said the matter could not be in better
hands, and he hoped the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
would still retain charge of the measure. A good deal
of valuable evidence had been taken before the Com-
mittee, which was well worthy the serious consideration
of the House.
DENMARK AND PRUSSIA.
Mr. DISRAELI, seeing the Noble Lord the Secretary
for Foreign Affairs in his place, wished to ask him a
question relative to the negotiations which had taken
place between Denmark and Germany under the Noble
Lord's auspices. It would be in the recollection of the
House, that the King of Denmark, out of regard for the
commerce of this country, was reluctantly induced to
sign an armistice between Denmark and Prussia, which
was afterwards carried to Berlin, and there signed
by the King of Prussia ; he believed mainly
through the auspices of Sweden, and the native in-
telligence of the Noble Lord the Secretary for
Fora ign Affairs. The House would be surprised to learn
that this armistice thus signed and ratified had been
repudiated by the Prussian people, and Europe had now
the mortification to learn that hostilities ruinous to the
commerce of England were about to be commenced. He
wished therefore to ask whether the Noble Lord had
any communication to make to the House on this almost
unprecedented occurrence in diplomatic negotiations;
whether he had received any communication from
Prussia to the Court of St. James's explanatory of these
proceedings; whether Prussia, under the new con-
stitution which at present prevailed in Ger-
many, which not even the King of Prussia
seemed to understand, had informed the Government
that the King had had no authority to sign and ratify the
armistice, and whether the King himself had withdrawn
his ambassador from the Court of St. James's ?
Lord PALMERSTON had great pleasure in furnish-
ing the House with such information as he had received
with regard to this important matter, and he trusted the
general result of his answer would be encouraging, but
perhaps not so satisfactory as the Hon. Gentleman
anticipated. Government proposed to the two parties,
Denmark and Prussia, articles of an armistice which also
contained the basis of a future permanent settlement of
the disputes between the two powers. That offer,
however, was not accepted, but eventually an officer in
the confidence of the king of Prussia was appointed to
negotiate for the King, and he repaired for that
purpose to Malmo to communicate with the Ministers
of Sweden and Denmark. At that meeting articles of
an armistice not involving the principle of a paramount
settlement were agreed to but not actually signed.
It might undoubtedly have been reasonably supposed
that the articles of the armistice were finally concluded
and duly signed, but when it was sent to the General
commanding the Prussian forces, that officer started
difficulties with reference to the position of his
own Government and the German Confederation. He
would not trouble the House by going into further de-
tails, but he might state that from a communication
which he had received this morning from Ber-
lin, he was led to hope that the difficulties
which had arisen would eventually be got over, and that
the armistice would be signed and finally concluded upon.
The House would understand that the main question re- '
mained to be settled, but her Majesty's Government
would still continue to give their good offices, with the
view of settling existing hostilities.
DANUBIAN TERRITORY.

Mr. URQUHART asked whether the Government
had received any information respecting the Danubian
provinces, and also inquired in what character the
Russian troops had marched into that territory?
Lord PALMERSTON said the Government had re-
ceived information of the march of the Russian troops
to Wallachia, but they had not received any in-
formation as to the actual entrance of any Russian
or Danish forces into Wallachia. He did not expect
that any collisioi would take place, the object of
their entry being to enforce certain arrangements sub-
sisting between the two powers, the sovereign power on
the one hand, and the protecting power on the other,
With regard to the matter of the treaty, he had no in-
formation of any negotiation for a now treaty between
Russia and Turkey.
VICE-ADMIRALTY COURTS.

Captain PECHELL asked what steps had been taken
to put an end to the abuses in the Vice-Admiralty
Courts of our colonies?
Mr. WARD said the subject had been considered, and
with the able assistance of Dr. Lushington the Govern-
ment had arrived at a very clear conception of the evil,
without, however, arriving at a conclusion as to the re-
medy. The costs of these Courts consisted of fees and
expenses. The fees were very moderate, but there was
a discretionary power in the Court to make other
charges, about the legality of which, howevei, *ere
was considerable question. The only remedy they could
devise would be to allow the bills of these Courts to be
taxed by the Admiralty Court at home. The matter
was under consideration.
OVE CROWDING OF STEAM-BOATS.

In reply to Mr. C. LUSIIINGTON,
Mr. LABOUCIIERE said his attention had been
directed to this subject. By the Steam Navigation Act
owners of steam-boats were obliged to present to the
Board of Trade once in six months a certificate of the
sea-worthiness of their vessels, but unfortunately the
Act did not enforce a penalty upon the owners of river
steam-boats. From information which had reached him
he believed, however, that it would be necessary to legis-
late further upon this subject, and he had accordingly
given directions that a Bill should be drawn, giving
power to the Board of Trade to enforce the provision of
the Steam Navigation Act to which he referred, and
also giving power to the same Board to limit in certain
cases the number of passengers on board steam-vessels.

THE CHOLERA.
Mr. WYLD asked whether any measures had been
taken to subject to quarantine vessels coming from certain
ports?

haudm baenen means e
Mr. LABOUCIIERE regretted his Noble Friend
v
(Lord Morpeth) was not in his place, to reply to the
iudees,t i
ao
sn .far Haes h ngag engaged
could,in e nddoe as vo argi nagi
ntsot pro-
the
scourge of cholera being brought to our shores.
DUTCH SUGARS.
Lord G. BENTINCK asked whether any correspond-
ence would be laid on the table on the subject of Dutch
sugars?
Viscount PALMERSTON said the correspondence
referred to between her Majesty's Government and the
Government of Holland was still going on.
Lord G. BENTINCK asked it there had been any
correspondence on this subject during the last three
months?
Viscount PALMERSTON—No; not within the last
three months.
CASE OF SIR JOHN CLARIDGE.
Mr. GLADSTONE then moved " An address to her
Majesty, setting
forth, that by an order in Council,
to approve on the
which his late Majesty was pleased
kith day of December, 1831, Sir John Thomas Claridge,
then recorder of Prince of Wales's Island, was removed
from the said office un account of an irritation between
the local government and I himself,' which, in the opinion
of the Lords of the Committee of Council, acting judi-
cially in the case, was principally to be attributed' to
the conduct of the said local government and of the home
authorities; also setting forth, that it further appeared
to their Lordships in their investiL;ation of the case,
' that no imputation rested on the capacity or integrity of
Sir J. T. Claridge in the exercise of his judicial func-
tions, so as to preclude his Majesty from employing him
in his service in some other judicial situation:' and pray-
ing that her Majesty, graciously taking into consideration
the expectations which the terms of the said order in
Council were calculated to create, may bo pleased to di-
rect that Sir. J. T. Claridge may receive an appointment
in her Majesty's service, of such a class as to her Ma-
jesty shall seem meet." The Right Hon. Member said
that Sir John Cl • aridge was appointed recorder of Prince
of Wales's Island in 1825. That order in Council which
expressed the views of the Sovereign was his whole
case, and if he invoked the aid ofthe Rouse it was not
to interfere with the patronage of the Crown, but to

carry out the virtual promise of the Crown. The Lords
of the Council reported "that though Sir John Claridge
could not be altogether justified in the measures he had
had recourse to, still their Lordships were of opinion
that the local Government were not wholly justified in
refusing to allow what the former recorder of Penang
and Sir J. Claridge thought a just and necessary expen-
diture; and that the conduct of Sir J. Claridge pro-
ceeded from from a mistaken view of what he considered
to be the line of his duty, and not from any corrupt or
imroper motive. But that though the local Govern-
ment to blame, as a matter of public policy they
recommenul'd his removal from his office." lie rested
this document, and would not enter

his case entirety'
g
on sis document, aua —_
into the char es
which Sir J. Claridge had been
tried. Their Lordships further said that though they
did not recommend that Sir e• Claridge should be rein-
stated in his office, they expressea opinion that no
imputation rested upon his character, eitecr in regard
to' his conduct or ability, to prevent tii. Crown from
employing him in some other judicial situation, The
House would see, therefore, that Sir John Claridge was
dismissed (not altogether without blame certainly, but
more for the fault of others than his own) because of a
collision which had occurred between him and the local
Government, and upon grounds of public policy and
convenience, it being more easy to remove one officer
than a whole Government. He contended that the words
of the order in Council were such as to lead Sir J. Cie-
ridge to expect employment from the Crown in some
other judicial capacity, and the object of his motion was
for the House to interfere to assist the Crown in carrying
out its expressed intention.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE observed that he had bad no-
thing to do with Sir J. Claridge's appointment or re-
moval, and was in no way responsible for any part of the
transaction, except so far as that he had not thought fit
to recommend him for an Indian judgeship. But sup-
posing that the case did involve so great a hardship as
the Right Hon. Gentleman represented, how was it that
during the five years he had himself been connected
with the Government, it had never pressed itself on his
attention ? The proviso in the order in Council on which
the Right Hon. Gentleman depended was extra-judicial;
but it contained no promise or recommendation, it
merely said that there was nothing in Sir J. Claridge's
conduct which should prevent his being employed in
some other judicial station. It did not enjoin his em-
ployment on the Minister, and it would be odd if it
did.—(Oh.) Having looked over the papers, he could
say also that there was nothing in them to impugn
the conduct or ability of Sir J. Claridge. He would
follow the example of the Right Hon. Gentleman by
not entering into the causes which led to Sir J. Claridge's
removal, as he was not desirous of saying anything
which might appear to boar hard upon that gentleman
and be painful to his feelings. All he would say was,
that he had rather not recommend him for an Indian
judgeship. The case had been fully examined by Lord
Brougham, who had caused it to be conveyed to Sir J.
Claridge, that it was not meant by the decision of the
Privy Council to give a triumph to either party. The
case had also been brought before Lord Glenelg, Lord
Ellenborough, Lord Fitzgerald, Lord Ripon, and him-
self, as Presidents of the Board of Control, and they had
found no ground to interfere; and now the Right lion.
Gentleman asked the House of Commons to take a
course opposed to all precedent, to interfere directly with
the patronage of the Crown by addressing it to give this
gentleman an appointment. Suppose th address was
agreed to, where would be the advantage?—who would
be responsible if the appointment was not given? Such
an interference he considered most unconstitutional; and
whatever might be the opinion of the House as to the
hardship of the case, he hoped they would not agree to
this motion.
Sir F. THESIGER supported the motion, and con-
tended that there was precedent in favour of this motion,
but there was no precedent of a Government refusing or
neglecting to carry out the recommendation of the Privy
Council.
Sir J. HOIMOUSE—It was not a recommendation.
Sir F. THESIGER—It was trifling with the meaning
of the words to say that it was not. It was more than
a recommendation, for it was a positive assurance that
Sir Claridge, being fit for another appointment under
the Crown, he should receive it. He called on the House
to express an opinion in favour of the motion, and he
had no fear that the Government would carry it out.
Lord J. RUSSELL knew nothing of the case until
brought forward by the Right lion. Gentleman; but he
must express his dissent from the unconstitutional doc-
trine that the Committee of the Privy Council not only
recommended Sir J. Claridge to the favour of the Crown,
but gave a pledge that he should be appointed to an In-
dian judgeship, or some other vacancy whenever
it occurred.—(Hear, bear.) He had never heard
before of such a pledge having been given by the Privy
Council. But the Right lion. Gentleman went further,
and said it was to be carried into effect by an address to
the House of Commons, calling upon the Crown to make
good that pledge. He was surprised to hear such an un-
constitutional doctrine enunciated not only by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, but by the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man who spoke last, who had himself served under the
Crown, and who had no excuse for so far mistaking the
prerogative of the Crown and the functions of the House
of Commons, But it appeared to him that the Judicial
Committee of the Privy Council gave no such pledge.
They did what was often done by the Secretary of State
for the Colonies, when he removed a person from a
judicial or other position, stating that although he felt
bound to remove him there was nothing to preclude the
Crown from appointing him again to some other situa-
tion in another colony. There might be local rea-
sons to unfit him for the particular place he occupied,
without any imputation whatever being cast upon his
character, conduct, or capabilities, to prevent his
being appointed elsewhere.—(Hear, hear.) More than
that the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council had
not done; and he (Lord John Russell) saw no reason for
questioning the discretion of Lord Glenelg or Lord
Ripon in not having thought it necessary again to ap-
point Sir J. Claridge. The only question that remained
was, whether the House of Commons should ask the
Crown so to appoint him, and on that question he had
only to remark that they had quite business enough to
occupy their attention without undertaking to interfere
with the patronage of the Crown.—(Hear, hear, and
cries of " Divide.")
Mr. GOEILBURN and Mr. UIteUITAILT supported the
motion.
Sir J. lIOGG admitted the case was one of hardship,
but hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would not divide
the House.

Mr. HENLEY protested against judicial oppointments
being forced upon the Crown by addresses of that
House.—(Hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE replied, maintaining that suffi-
cient had been said to justify Sir J. Claridge in believ-
ing that he would be re-appointed; but as the sense of
the House was against it, he would not divide.
Motion by leave withdrawn.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

A message from the Lords informed the House that
their Lordships had agreed to the following Bills :
Vhitehaven and Furness Junction Railway (Extension
or Deviation from Silecroft to Foxfield)—Great Western
Railway (Branch from Slough to Windsor), with an
amendment—Midland Railway (Gloucester and Stone-
house Junction)—London, Brighton, and South Coast
Railway (London-bridge and New Cross Stations)—Ad-
ministration of Justice (No. l)—Administration of Jus-
tice (No. 2)—Protection of Justices from Vexatious
Actions, with amendments.
COLONIAL EXPENDITURE.

Sir W. MOLESWORTH rose to bring forward the
following motion:—" That it is the opinion of this House
that the colonial expenditure of the British empire de-
mands inquiry, with a view to its reduction; and that,
to accomplish this object, and to secure greater content-
ment and prosperity to the colonists, they ought to be
invested with large powers for the administration of
their local affairs." Ho maintained, and was prepared
to show, that that reduction might take place without
detriment to the interests of the empire, and with advan-
tage to the government of the colonies, rendering their
resources more useful and their inhabitants more at-
tached to the British empire. In speaking of the colo-
nies, ho alluded to those only which wore under the
jurisdiction of the Colonial-office. They embraCed an
area of between 4,000,000 and 5,000,000 of square miles,
about 1,000,000 of which were divided into forty different
colonies, having separate governments, and 5,000,000 of
inhabitants, one-half of whom only were of European
origin; their expenditure amounts to about 8,000,0001.
annually, one-half being defrayed by the colonies,
and the other by Great Britain. That portion de-
frayed by Great Britain was under four different
heads—military, naval, civil, and extraordinary.
The military expenditure in 1832 was 1,700,0001.;
in 1843, it was 2,500,0001.; and, at present,
it could not be less, having in our colonies about 42,000
troops, for which alone we should have to vote 1,500,000/. ;
so that he thought he under-estimated the present mi •
litary cost in saying it was only 2,500,0001. They had
255 ships in commission, and taking 45 of them, with a
complement of 8,000 men, as required for the colonies,
the naval expense must be at least 700,000/. to which
must be added the cost of naval establishments and
works, and freights, and expense of reliefs, raising the
sum to more than 1,000,0000/. The civil expenditure
annually voted in the miscellaneous estimates consisted
of a great variety of items, and amounted to 300,000/.1
and the extraordinary expenditure made np of such
charges as for relief to sufferers, money lent to South
Australia, and promised to be lent to the West Indies,
might at the lowest calculation be put down at 200.0001: ,
making altogether 4,000,000/., which, however, was
much under the real expenditure by Great Britain on
account of her colonies; while the declared value of our
exports only amounted to 9,000,000/., 1,000,000/. of
which was an export trade to Gibraltar for smuggling
' into Spain. So that our expenditure amounted to
9s. for every 1/. worth of goods we exported.—
(Hear, hear,) Now colonies ought to be useful for
political or commercial objects, and with what view wore
sometimes employed as military stations. But he would
aueosTisfsobkntwe
o.ywe
scatterhawkßa tenurewtns es
nderived
wddb s fen r 000naf mubfi\
Malta,
strength,wannho militarylsaduttsraaortyhhtconcentrate
amwrmes
epoitnuntgoti
:her(
teipoathyoalt
peoesswirnei
rcotai)ouavfotwaielrfl stations?
aa.)rsrgo eico gbeuawrisirse—gaes3
(Hear, hear)—and in the Case of a serious struggle we
imightoverbe
Gibraltarcompelled
andto
s
the necessity of protecting the lonian States with 2,500
troops, at a cost of 130,0001., that sum being something'
more than the value of our exports to those States ?
(Hear, hear.) In 1842 they were 122,500/. in arrear
with this country ; and he doubted not that, instead of
diminishing, it had since increased, while we were this
year to be called upon to vote 12,0001. to complete the
fortifications. Bermuda, another military station, ex-
pended since the peace 600,000/. upon military and
naval works ; and to complete the fortifications we must
expend 260,0001. more. St. Helena cost us 40,0001.
a year. Our colonies on the coast of Africa
cost 52,000/,
a year ; while we spent at
least 500,000/. a year in vain attempts to suppress the
slave trade. He could not avoid recommending the
House to dispense with their military stations on the

WEDNESDAY

coast of Africa. Then there was the Cape of Good
Hope, larger in extent than the whole of the United
Kingdom, rendered particularly remarkable of late by
the Kaffir war—the fourth war within the last twelve
years; one which formed a strange instance of the little
influence exercised by the Colonial-office over a distant
colony—(Hear)—which cost this country 1,100,0001.,
and which would in all probability cost us 800,0001. or
900,0004 more. When Sir Henry Pottinger came to the
colony he was astonished at the proofs he found of the
enormous expenditure that had been committed, of the
monstrous peculation that had been perpetrated, and
peculation in which there was reason to believe men
of very thigh station had been implicated.—(Hear,
hear.) As an example of the reckless expenditure he
would mention, that a party of colonists settled in a
frontier village had been receiving rations, &c., from
the Government to the extent of not less than 2,0001.
per annum, on the pretext that they served as a sort of
out•poet. What had the renewal of the Kaffir war been
owing to ? Simply to the circumstance that 20 oxen
Lving been stolen by some natives, although immediate
restitution was made of 18 of them, the Governor chose
to say he was not content with the restitution, but must
proceed to punish the whole nation to which the robbers
belonged. The war which proceeded was conduced on
principles the least likely to bring it to a satisfactory
issue, the troops employed being partly old Peninsular
soldiers, wholly unaccustomed to the sort of warfare,
and partly of heavy dragoons, armed with heavy rifles
which, once discharged, they could scarcely manage to
reload without dismounting, and it was not until recourse
was had, by the new Governor, to native forces, officered
accomplished.ia
the new
Whenng goevre, he
by young and dashing British officers, that success
all
was Sir
found Harrythe
aSt
rmuigt
ghl e arrivedtermi-
nated,
to s
t rirnor did was to make the
chiefs kiss his feet, and to add to our possessions
ne andee e
eH h.e
some 40,000 square miles of territory of as barren and
useless land, to use the surveyor's phrase, as was to be
found on the earth's crust. This splendid result of a
war, which originated in a removed axe and two stolen
cows, had cost this country two millions of money.—
(Hear, hear.) As to the Colonial.office here the pro-
babilities were, that while the struggle was going on
they knew nothing at all about it, the Noble Lord at the
head of the department being, very possibly, more sur-
prised than anybody else when the bill of costs was pre-
sented to him.--(Hear.) The war was at an end now,
indeed, but the House might be sure that, unless some
effectual measures interposed, a similar war would be
got up again before many years had expired, for
the Cape Town people admired the sort of thing vastly,
in consequence of the active expenditure upon it, by
which they so largely benefited.—(Hear, hear.) Now
his (Sir W. Molesworth's) proposition was to withdraw
at all events the great bulk of the troops from this
colony, and to leave the colonists to protect themselves,
which they could very well do, the more especially, that
under such circumstances they would take good care not
to provoke hostilities.—(Hear, hear.) If a military
station must be maintained at the Cape, 1,000 soldiers
would be amply sufficient fur the purpose; but he
thought that emigrants would serve the colony and the
mother country much better than troops. Emigrants
might be conveyed to the Cape at the cost of 101. per
head, while every soldier kept there cost this country
601. per annum; so that if the money spent upon them
were laid out in emigration the colony would receive
9,000 new inhabitants every year, who would be
a far more efficient protection than the 1,500
soldiers could afford. (Hear, hear.) The Mau-
ritius was to be regarded at once as a com-
mercial colony and as a military station. There
the expenditure was 285,0001. per annum, while the
total of our exports thither did not exceed 92,000/. The
expenditure, in fact, was far more than he had stated,
for there were to be additional troops placed on the
station, and 150,0004 were to be expended, it appeared,
on the improvement of our defences. Yet here, as at
the Cape, 1,000 soldiers would answer every legitimate
purpose, the colonists receiving free institutions in re-
turn for undertaking their own protection. Ceylon was
neither a military station nor a commercial colony, but
came rather under the class of Indian possessions.
Indeed it seemed to him that it would be far better to
transfer it altogether to the East India Company, and to
save the cost, which at present amounted to 110,0004
per annum in military expenditure, besides 70,000/.
per annum paid by the colonists ; the whole
of our exports thither not exceeding 240,0004
Upon Hong-Kong this year he found that
94,510/, had been voted—a small sum in comparison
with what this station would very soon cost. The
Government had began very promisingly with the
governor of this new station, who was to be paid no less
a sum than 6,000/ per annum.—(Hear.) Altogether,
our expenditure within the Chinese and Indian seas did
not fall short of 600,0001. per annum, while all our ex-
ports thither did not exceed two millions. Another sta-
tion now figured on the list, Labuan, which was to cost
us, in this its first year, 9,8271., of which 2,0001. was to
go to Mr. Baja Brooke, whose territories at Sarawak,
meanwhile, were to be looked after by a consul, whom
we were to remunerate with 500/. a year. No great
length of time would elapse under the present system of
things, before Laguan woud figure as largely in our esti-
mates as the Cape or Ceylon ; and we should thus
have to pay ten shillings purchase money for every
twenty shillings of exports that we transmitted
to this colony.—(Hear, hear.) Then there were the
miserable Falkland Islands, which, since 1841, had cost
us no less than 45,0001., with no return or advantage to
us of any description. By all means, he would say, let
this utterly useless possession be forthwith handed over
to the acknowledged claims of Buenos Ayres. By re-
ducing the troops at such military stations as it might be
deemed expedient to reduce, from 21,000 to 10,000,
there would be a saving effected of one million a year in
military and naval expenditure alone. Then as to your
colonies in North America, the West Indies, and Aus-
tralasia, of what possible benefit was it to the mother
country to retain the present system there ? In former
years, when monopoly had the ascendant, that principle
was alleged as the ground for exercising the dominion we
had assumed, for it was said this monopoly gave us the ex-
clusive benefit of the trade with all these possessions.. But
monopoly had now been struck down by She strong arm of
free trade, and there remained no compulsion on our
colonies to trade with us instead of with other markets.
As regarded commerce, they were now virtually indes
pendent states; but, as independent states, they would
still be very glad to sell us their produce, and, selling us
their produce, they would receive our produce and our
manufactures in payment, so long as we enabled them so
to do. At all events, no expenditure we might make in
the way of military er naval armaments would better our
case; and by all means, therefore, let this expenditure be
discontinued. In the year 1844 the declared value of all
our exports to our North American colonies, to our West
Indian and Australian colonies, was six millions sterling.
In the same year our expenditure upon these colonies
was not less than two millions sterling, and afterwards
we paid two millions a year for the chance of getting
purchasers for six millions a year of exports.—(Hear,
hear.) Cut off the whole of this two millions a year ex-
penditure, and these would not be a diminution in the
demand for our exports to the extent of a single pound.
On an average of the last sixty years our North Ameri-
can colonies, in one way or another, had not cost us less
than a million a year, or, in other words, full thirty per
cent. on our exports thither.—(Hear, hear.) On what
principle did we keep up 9,000 troops there? To protect
our colonies from the United States? If the colonies
were loyal, they could very well protect themselves; if
they were not loyal, twice 2,000 troops would not at all
answer the Hear, hear.) Even suppose our
NorthAm purpose.
—(Hear,
did join the United States, we
should, in a commercial point of view at all events, be the
better for the change. In that commercial point of view
the United States themselves were as much our colonies
as ever, and better colonies for the purpose than any of
those we retained at such a heavy outlay.—(Hear.
hear.) In 1844 the declared value of our exports to the
United States did not fall short of 8,000,0001.
sterling, the whole expenditure throughout the union
not exceeding 15,0004 for the various consular esta-
blishments.—(Hear, hear.) As to emigration, the
United States received every year more of our popula-
tion as emigrants than did all our own colonies put to-
gether.—(Hear, hear.) In the West Indies we kept up
a force of 6,000 men, at a cost of 513,000/., the civil
and other expenditure raising the total expenditure to
not less than 700,000/. per annum—(Hear, hear)—being
25 per cent. on the entire of our exports thither, which
exports, be it remembered, were every year decreasing.
It would be well worth our while, in his opinion, to
give the West India colonists 10,000,0001. sterling, on
condition of their becoming independent states. It
would effect a saving of full 350,0004 per annum to
this country. In our Australian colonies, including
the declared value of our exports to these colones
pNeerwaZruelualman, da,ndwein expended in militaryotheritema fully osuotl,a4, 70021.,000.
more,/
li tart o y 30 per cent. on
our exports. By reducingestablishments
not exceeding one million sterling ; so that
here again our expenditure amounted
our mi
in these colonies within reasonable limits we should save
another million per annum. As to the purely commer-
cial colonies, if they were entrusted with their just right
of self- government, they need cost us nothing at all;
and here would be effecied an enormous annual saving.
At present scarcely anything could be worse than the
system of their government by the Colonial-office. As
to money matters, he had before him a Treasury minute
of June 16, in which my Lords complained very empha-
tically of the delay, on the part of the Colonial-office, in
the auditing of the colonial accounts, specifying, among
other glaring instances, that the accounts of Mauritius
were in arrear ten years, those of the Cape
of Good Hope eight, those of Ceylon six; r the.o
arrears, as to the other colonies, ranging fromhfou stive years.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Memeer
pro-
ceeded to show that the rate of expenditure i h Crownt
in the
colonies was infinitely less than the expenditure
assemblies.
in-
ternal affairs by the means of representative not properly
Omitting from his calculation Ceylon—as
the west coast of
colonies which, more or less, administered their own a
colony—the military stations
foundon
that the rate of
Africa, and the lonian States,
of the latter class. The
average, half less than that of
re
presentative assemblies
population of the colonies w
re upon them 1,930,0001.,
was 2,680,000, and theexpenc
head per annum.
expenditure in the former classheof colonies was, on the
being at the rate of 14,e. 11 per
without representative
the expenditure 1,420,0001.,
asse7nelies .vas 820,000, and
head; -
being at the rate of 11. 14s. a or 18s. 7d.
other class of colonies.—(Hear, hear.)
more than in the
The population of the colonies
In the North American colonies the rate of expenditure
was the lowest, for there was the greatest amount of
self-government. There the population, in 1845, being
1,700,000, the expenditure was 1,134,0001., or 13e. 4d.
per head, and taking into account that half a million of
the sum was a special amount raised by loan for public
works, the expenditure in point of fact was only 9s. per
head, and even this amount was 30 per cent. higher than
the expenditure in the United States. The difference
arose in great measure from the enormously heavy sala-
ries paid in our colonies to the higher functionaries, who
received three or four times more than the same class of

EVENING, JULY 26, 1848.

functionaries received in the United States. The Go-
vernor of Canada, for example, superintending a popula-
tion of 1,200,000, received 7,0001. per annum, while the
President of the United States had only 5,0001. per an-
num; the Governor of New York, with a population of
2,600,000, receiving 800/. per annum. The Chief Justices
of Upper and Lower Canada had 1,500/. a year each; the
Chancellor and Chief Justices of New York had 800/. a
year each. The Puisne Judges of Canada had 1,000/. a
year each; and of New York, 2001. a year each. The
Governor of Nova Scotia had 3,500/. a year; the Gover-
nors of New Brunswick and Newfoundland had 3,000/. a
year each; while the Governor of Massachusetts, with a
much larger population, had only 500/. a year. The
same rate of lavish expenditure prevailed in our other
colonies; there were the Governors of Mauritius and
Ceylon with their 7,0001. a year each; the Governor of
Jamaica with 6,5001. a year; the Governors of Gibraltar,
Malta, &c., with their 5,000/. a year a piece, and so on,
while, if the colonies had to make the appointments,
they would select much better men than the present
average for a fourth of the cost.—(Hear, hear.) In the
West Indies, Jamaica, the Leeward Islands, the Wind-
ward Islands, with the exception of St. Lucia and Ba-
hamas, with a population of 700,000, had an expenditure
of 450,000/., or 12s. 10d. a head, the rate of Jamaica
being 13s. Compare these with St. Lucia, Honduras,
Trinidad, and British Guiana, with a population of
190,000, and an expenditure (exclusive of emigration) of
284,000/, being at the rate of U. 95., or twice that of
colonies with representative assemblies. And there again
the salaries of the higher functionaries were excessive;
there were twelve governors and lieutenant-governors,
with 29,0001. a year. At the Cape and Mauritius there
was a population of about 160,000. These being Crown co-
Links, the rate of expendituretwas about the same as the
Crown colonies in the West Indies, 1/. 7s. a head. The
Governor of Mauritius receives 7,0001. a year; Governor
of the Cape 5,000/.---(Hear, hear.) It might be said,
that the rate of expenditure was higher in the Crown
colonies because they were more thinly inhabited; but
the Crown colonies of Mauritius were four times as
thickly inhabited as Jamaica, yet the rate of expenditure
at Jamaica was half' less than that of Mauritius.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, with respect to the Australian colonies, he
found that only one of them—New South Wales was the
only one which had a legislative assembly; and the con-
sequence was that a reduction had taken place in the
expenditure of that colony immediately after the consti-
tution had been granted to it. From the years 1841 to
1845 the expenditure had averaged about 3/. 4s. per
head on the whole population of New south Wales.
In the year 1846, one twelvemonth after the legislative
assembly had begun to sit, the expenditure was reduced
to 11.8 s. per head, or less than half what it had been
previously. Let him compare the expenditure of New
South Wales with that of the kindred colony of Van
Diemen's Land, where it amounted to 41. 6s. in 1841, a
sum three times greater than in New South Wales
after the legislative assembly was established. This
excessive expenditure occasioned the greatest discontent
at Van Diemen's Land, and it caused excessive taxation.
The colonists themselves were of opinion that this taxa-
tion was illegal, and one of the judges there had been
recently removed from his post for having declared these
taxes illegal.—(No, no.) The Hon. Member then
entered into a statement of the proceedings of the Colo-
nial-office with respect to asserting the right of the
Crown to royalties on the products of mines situated in
Australian colonies, 'which proceedings he asserted were
highly unjust, oppressive, and contrary to good faith.
With respect to the colony of New Zealand, he was un-
able to state what the amount of expenditure per head
was, but it must bo , very great, as the military proceed-
ings there had been ,very expensive ; and what with an
imbecile Governor, an incendiary bishop, a faithless co-
lonial secretary, anft, discontented set of colonists, that
settlement was at prlssent in a most unsatisfactory and
extraordinary state. A constitution had been granted
to he settlers and natives of New Zealand in the course
of 1846. but it had been arbitrarily suspended by the
Colonial-office authorities within a year after it had
come into operation. With respect to the desirableness of
the establishment of legislative assemblies in those colo-
nies where none now existed, there could be no question.
He had presented many petitions praying for them from
colonies not possessing those institutions. Indeed, all the
colonies so circumstanced had repeatedly petitioned the
House during the last ten years to grant them legislative
assemblies, and only in one instance, that of New South
\Vales, had these petitions been attended with success.
All the others had been refused, and yet he would not
hesitate to assert, that it they had had legislative assem-
blies they would have been far better governed than they
had been by the Colonial-office. He did not mean by
what he stated to cast any blame upon the individuals
who administered the affairs of the Colonial-office. '.file
system was to blame, and not the men; and it was the
system alone which merited, and which should receive
his blame end disrespect. Indeed, if he turned back to
the proceedings of former sessions of Parliament, he could
cite the opinions of the Hon. and Learned Member for
Liskeard, and of the present Earl Grey, the Colonial
Secretary, as fully bearing him out in his description
of the manifold evils of the system observed of govern-
ing the colonies. The ambition of the Colonitil- office
was no less glaring than its incapacity. The authori-
ties there pretended to be able to govern pos-
sessions ranging between the arctic and antarc-
tic poles—they exercised authority over colonies
which were at the distance of a twelvemonth's
voyage from the seat of their authority, and it
was notorious that one letter had scarcely been dispatched
from Downing-street, ere a change in the circumstances
of the colony to which it was addressed compelled the
Colonial Secretary to write another diametrically op-
posed to it, and thus they went on from year to year,
the orders and recommendations of the home authorities
being alike neglected and despised by the legislative as-
semblies to whom they were addressed, and disobeyed
lay the governors who received them, the colonists them-
selves being disgusted and alienated by the gross igno •
ranee displayed by those who assumed the right of di-
recting their affairs. Now, if it were expedient to en-
trust slush multifarious and important duties as those of
Colonial Secretary to any single individual, that person
ought to be possessed not only of a vast amount of
knowledge, but also he ought to be a man of great expe-
rience and sagacity. Now, did these qualifications cha-
racterise the individuals who had of late years presided
over the Colonial-office ? Was the rule laid down for
the choice of a Colonial Secretary that which was fol-
lowed in selecting that functionary ?—(Hear, and a
laugh.) He was of opinion that no such rule had ever
been laid down—much less carried out. The Colonial
Secretary was generally chosen for expediency sake,
from amongst the heads of one or the other of the par-
ties who sought to govern the country, and the average
duration of his term of office did not exceed eighteen
months.—(Hear, hear.) On looking back during the
last nine years, he found that there had been exactly six
different Colonial Seeretaries, namely, Lords Glenelg,
Normanby, Russell, and Stanley, Mr. Gladstone, and
Lord Grey. In point of fact, whilst the Colonial Secre-
taries were constantly changing, the system maintained
in Downing-street was one of unmitigated despotism,
qualified by weakness and uncertainty. The changes in
policy were as frequent as, and even more so, than those
in the heads of the office, At one moment the Colonial-
office was swayed by the West Indian interests, the next
day the Protectionists had the rule, the Anti-Slavery
party succeeded these, and in their turn were displaced
by the New Zealand Company, who gave way before
the missionaries, and thus the Colonial-office authorities
were " Everything by turns, and nothing long," which
rendered all their projects abortive and all their measures
unsuccessful. Such a system of government might suit
a nation of serfs, but to a people accustomed to self-
government it presented no other aspect than that of an
odious and a hateful tyranny.—(Hear.) If his asser-
tions were doubted—if he was supposed to misrepresent
the sentiments of the colonists, let him refer the Colonial-
office authorities to the West Indies and the other colo-
nies they pretended to govern, and from one and all the
same demand would be received, " Relieve, us from
the rule of the Colonial-office." Even the Canadas n
, the
most favoured and petted of all the colonies, was
ssembly,
satisfied; for although they had g
yet every now and then they sentot home complaint,
against the heads of the Colonial office. But if the
colonists had reason to complain against the Downing-
street authorities, they had far more serious grounds
for complaining of the governors who were sent out to
rule over them, and who were chosen, not on account of
their fitness to exercise such important functions, but
purely on personal grounds, such as providing for the
needy relatives of those in power—(Hear, hear)—of
providing posts for unsuccessful officers, unemployed
barristers, or importunate office hunters. Nay, the class
of persons selected as governors was not always con-
fined to the reputable though needy, for instances were
not wanting in which discreditable persons had been got
rid of by nominating them to a distant governor-
ship, where the fame of their previous career had not
spread. Such being the sort of persons sent out to act
as governors to the colonies, was it to be wondered
at that they were utterly unfit to sustain their charac-
ters, or that they became the tools of the factions
which existed at the seat of their rule? From such
causes sprung the jealousies and feuds which were so
frequent amongst the authorities and functionaries of
distant colonies. The governors and the judges were,
owing to these causes, frequently upon a hostile footing
towards each other, and Rot a year passed in which
some petitions were not presented complaining of the
arbitrary removal of judges or other functionaries by
the superior authorities of the colonies. So frequent,
indeed, were these petitions, that a permanent tribunal
had been constituted to judge of their grounds ; and
who should be placed at the head of such a commission
but the man who had long been designated as the " evil
genius of the Colonial-office ?"—(Cries of " Name;" to
which some Hon. Member answered Stephens.) The
facts which he referred to were of such notoriety that all
were acquainted with them more or less. No wonder, I
therefore, that the colonies were badly governed under
such a system, or that the colonists were discontented.
The question to be considered was, whether the system
could ho amended. It appeared to him that the admi-
nistration of the affairs of the colonies by the Downing-
street authorities was far inferior to the system of self.
government. The colonists were far better judges of
their own wants than any person jobbing in Downing-
street could be. The Colonial--office was entirely irre-
sponsible, and it was only when the country was called
upon to pay for its misdeeds, in the shape of a Kafir or
New Zealand war, that any accounts of its proceedings
could be obtained. And even then the documents were
so carefully prepared that few of the Members of that
House were able to trace the various items so set out by
the Colonial-office.--(Hear, bear.) Neither the House
nor the country placed any confidence in the documents
They
were forth by the Colonial-office.—(Hear, hear.)
were drawn out to suit the views entertained by the Co-
lonial-office authorities, and consequently they misled
people and did not inform them.—(Hear,hear.)The
only remedy for the state of things he had described was
self-government
; and the conclusion that he had
come
to was, that the only course now to be followed towards
the colonists was to bestow on them every power of
managing and controlling their affairs, only reserving to
England the sovereignty over them, which to withdrraw

would be injurious to the whole empire. Tho purposes
for which the colonies were chiefly, if not wholly, useful
to the mother country were to afford an outlet for emi
gration and a market for her manufactures. During the
last twenty years the cost of emigration had been
20,000,0001., and taking periods of five years during
that time, it would be found that emigration had gone
steadily on increasing every year. In 1832, it Was
60,000; in 1837, 66,000; in 1842, 86,000; and in 1647,
121,000. These important facts would show that the
habit of emigration was steadily advancing; and his con-
clusion was that free trade and emigration ought to be
the sale objects held in view in reference to the colonies
in concurrence with maintaining the sovereignty ot Great
Britain over them. If henceforward, instead of expend-
ing 4,000,0001. on the military, naval, and civil estab-
lishments of the colonies, 2,000,0001. were to be an-
nually applied to the purposes of emigration, the
result would soon be most beneficial. The colonies
were competing for labour ; and could England
not bridge over the ocean by her emigration ships
so as to supply those wants ? If that could be
accomplished one of the most difficult social problems of
the day would be at once solved. The difficulty was to
find funds ; but, as he had said, why nut expend
2.000,0001. a year in this way instead of the 4,000,0001.
now so idly and wastefully spent ? The statesman who
would carry into operation a vast and comprehensive
scheme of emigration would achieve for himself an im-
perishable name. But the system upon which emigration
must be based ought to be that practised by the Greeks
in founding their colonies, and by those wise and self-
denying men who founded the states of New England on
the shores of America. All classes must go thither.
The capitalist, the professional man, the artisan, the
farmer, the mechanic, the labourer, all with their wives,
their families, their implements, so as to constitute a
complete colony i❑ themselves. The horrible system of
casting out paupers in a state of disease too horrible to
think of, and sullied by crimes unmentionable even to
the most polluted ears, was one which characterised the
recent efforts at emigration sanctioned by the Colonial-
office. It was alike disgraceful to those who were the
participators in the scheme and those who were its
victims. If the good old system of colonization were
pursued the savage deserts of New Zealand would soon be
converted into the happy abodes of the Saxon-English
race. Having thus explained his views, he begged to
move the resolution which he had already road, and to
state in conclusion that if the Government agreed in it,
he would on a future day give notice of his intention
next session to appeal to the Honse to appoint a Corn-
naittee to inquire into the means by which the views he
had explained could best be carried into effect.
Mr. HLTTT lamented his inability to offer any ade-
quate tribute to the admirable speech which the Hon.
Baronet had just delivered, and he should even have felt
diffident in rising to second the motion, were it not that
he was prepared to maintain nearly every position laid
down by the Hon. Baronet. In 1830, a tow gentlemen
tried to show how advantageous emigration would be to
the labouring classes, and an association was established
for the purpose of trying the experiment in South
Australia. The intended colonists, who were ready
to sacrifice everything here for the purpose of going
out to colonize that country, could but expect every
thing in the way of assistance from the Colonial-
office; but the difficulties which that office inter-
posed by their Bill rendered colonization almost
impossible. These difficulties were, however, over-
come; and notwithstanding that, it required an Act of
Parliament;to shield the colonists from misery. The
colony was however established in spite of the Colonial-
office, and was now flourishing to a degree which was
not expected. There were a great many people in this
country who were severely suffering from the pressure of
the times, and who would be glad to exercise their
labour in our distant dependencies. The elements of
comfort which they afforded if judiciously combined
would be vastly beneficial to those who would emigrate
from the country if encouraged by the Colonial-office.
'there was at this moment a great desire on the part of
the working classes in this country to emigrate; but they
should do something to improve the colonists, and to
inculcate affection towards the mother-country. They
ought not to be taught to support one constitution in
one colony, and another in another colony, for such
would lead to nothing but dismemberment and disaffec-
tion. This was a subject *in h most loudly called for
the attention of the Legislature. Only give the colonies
the right of self-government, and they would defray all
the expenses of their own administration, and would thus
relieve the Colonial-office from all existing embarrass-
ments.

Mr. HAWES said, that whether he regarded the im-
portance of this debate, or the magnitude of the subject,
and the multitude of details it involved, he might ven-
ture to solicit the kindness and indulgence of the House
whilst he drew somewhat largely on its attention. The
lion. Member for Gateshead (Hr. Hutt) had impugned,
not the colonial policy of the present day, but of Eng-
land itself; reproaches had been heaped on the Colonial-
office, and on the Noble Lord now at its head, of which
he humbly begged to take his share.
Mr. HUT 1.• begged distinctly to state that he had
directed no reproaches against the Noble Lord (Lord
Grey) or the Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear.)
Mr. HAWES said that what had fallen from his Hon.
Friend and the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark,
had net only cast reproaches on the system, but on those
who had so long administered it.—(Hear.) It was not
for him (Mr. Hawes) to presume to defend all the errors
which had accumulated in their colonial policy from
time to time; but this he would say, that the colonial
policy of England was the most successful and the most
beneficial that the world ever saw.—(Cries of" Oh,"
and " No.") Then he would call upon any Hon. Gen-
tleman to point out another instance, and to say where
it was that they saw the same degree of internal tran-
quillity and commercial prosperity. The Hon. Member
then referred to what ho termed the "old colonial sys-
tem," an expression which he owned did not convey to
his mind any very definite idea of the particular system
intended, but if ho meant the system of colonization,
which once prevailed, and which consisted largely in
monopoly and slavery, he thought they would not be
very eager to return to it, but would rather be disposed
to continuo the system, which at present was in force.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member made some harsh ob-
servations on the tampering which he thought prevailed
at the Colonial-office, saying that needy adventurers,
and those who could command any interest there, were
the persons appointed to its various offices of emolu-
ment. Ho thought the Hon. Member might have re-
frained from attaching any sordid nature to such ap-
pointments, and have given credit for a sincere desire to
promote the true interests of the public service, by
a choice of able and distinguished men. The Hon.
Member, if he had chosen, might have recalled name
after name of men appointed to important posts in the
colonies, whose services deserved the greatest praise.
He might have recalled the names of Lord Metcalfe,
Lord Elgin, Sir Harry Smith, Sir William Colebrooke,
Mr. M. O'Ferrall, Sir George Grey. and Lord Harris,
of whom it could not be said that Parliamentary italics.
ence alone procured them their posts. The Hon. Gen-
tleman then contended that it was wise and expediento to
give the largest portion of self-government to the c 10 •
nies, and at the same time he understood him to say that
he would abandon none of them. Now he (Mr. Hawes)
agreed so far with the Hon. Member as to think that,
wherever the colony was suited for self-government, the
Government of this country was bound to allow it. That
however, was to be received with caution, and
principle,
much qualified in its application. Thus, they extended
to Canada the largest share of self-government, but
would it be prudent to extend the same constitution to
the small island of Nevis?—(Hear, hear.) The Mau-
ritius, for another example, was a military station as
well as a colony, and must be regarded under both
points of view. It was in such cases as those, and in
others where few Europeans were mixed up with large
numbers of the coloured races, that the beneficial influ-
ence of the Crown, in tempering their frequently dis-
cordant interest, was perceived. He was glad to hear,
however, that the Hon. Member did not recommend the
House to abandon any of the colonies, and he could only
regret that he should have brought this' subject forward,
without being sure, in the first instance, of establishing
a case, as a debate of that kind materially tended to
weaken the authority of Government in the colonies.
The Hon. Member then cited the case of Canada, as an
instance of the extension of the principle of self-govern-
ment, and afterwards mentioned that of New Brunswick.
In the coarse of his speech the Hon. Member lor South-
wark made some harsh observations on the subject of the
Bill which was passed for the purpose of defining and
improving the government of New Zealand. The Bill
for the government of New Zealand contained a provie
sion for the franchise of the natives, which was the first
instance where so great and good an object was had in
view, of admitting the natives to a share of fhe govern-
ment. And how stood the fact with regard to
Australia? The Bill in that case, not meeting with
general approbation, was abandoned, and the
probable result would bo a representative govern-
ment. In a dispatch of the 20th December, 1841,
Sir G. Napier, the governor of the colony, recommended
the establishment of a representative government, of
which his Noble Friend Lord Stanley took notice after-
wards, saying that the project should be entertained as
soon as the affairs of Kafraria were arranged. It was
the first business of Sir Harry Smith on settling them,
to inquire into the civil institutions of the colony, and
they expected that he would fully report upon that very
point. It was a matter of notoriety, that the colonies,
as a rule, contained a very small European and a very
largo coloured community; and that being the case, was
Housethe h
t preparede
Memberto io
concur.r Southwark?
in t the
e policy of
Thenthe Htohno.
Gentleman
oveahrndmmenortes
ciloonniucMt eadm all t shaeiidr athffaatirsremproarseen successfullyt ative G
economically.. He did think that his Hon. Friend was
not in possession of proper grounds of calculation, upon
which he could base his opinions. In the West Indian
colonies, for instance, it was extremely difficult to
ascertain the amount of the revenue; but in Australia,
if they included 50,000 emigrants in !their calculation,
the result, of course, would be totally different,
and the comparison unfair. Neither British Guiana,
nor Hong Kong were such costly colonies as the Hon.
Member seemed to think, the total annual ex-
penditure of the former being only 42,000/.,
and their expenditure would, for the future, be decreased.
In Ceylon, the entire expenditure had been placed under
review, and in Mauritius the Governor had reduced the
expense by 65,0001. a year, and had relieved the inhabi-
tants of 30,0001. by removing the stamp duty. Ho
therefore thought he had shown, that the principle of
self-government had been extended to every colony thiit
admitted of it, and that their expenditure had not yet
been recognised as a substantive ground of complaint
against the system. The total value of the imports in
18.15 into the United Kingdom, was 15,100,0001., and
the total value of the exports in the same year was
13,000,0001. It was quite clear that the total
value of the imports and exports was the
sum on which they had to strike their per tentage.
With respect to the colony of Australia, it was well
known that it was a pet colony ; and had
not the Colonial Department taken it into hand,
it was quite clear it would be now - in a state

of bankruptcy. The Right Hon. Gentleman then nt
into the question of the :royalties of the colony; and
proceeded to advert to the advantages which might arise
to this country from the circumstance of the colony of
New South Wales being what was termed "Territorial."
That circumstance rendered it of great value as afford-
ing a field for emigration, which, if properly turned to
account, might be made productive of the greatest ad-
vantages to British society.—(Hear.) He then directed
attention to the colony of New Zealand, which gave
promise of the greatest advantages. He confessed that
the military expenditure of the colonies had increased
considerably. One broad result was rather remarkable;‘,,
the increased expenditure from 1843, amounted -to
700,0001., but nearly the whole of that sum Was abL-
sorbed by Canada and New South Wales, which were
considerable military stations. On the other hand, the
civii expenditure had not increased very largely—it had
not in those years increased more than 40,0001. The
naval expenditure had not also increased very largely.
With respect to the ordinances passed in the colonies,
there were 912 ordinances passed, and of those only
55 were objected to by the Colonial•ofice. He was
quite aware chat the Colonial-office did not enjoy any
very favourable opinion in the mind of many Hon.
Members —he was quite aware that it was an office
which, either more or less, was attended with unpopu-
larity. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to defend
the 'Colonial-office generally from the charges which
had been brought against them, and concluded by stating
that he had not the least objection to the motion of the
Hon. Gentleman. Ile admitted that the colonial expen-
diture required attention, and he should not oppose in-
quiry into it. He saw the great value of the colonial
empire to the mother country, and he believed, if pro-
perly managed, that the greatest advantages would
arise from it. He was, therefore, most anxious to in-
crease the ties by which they were at present bound.
together, and he hoped every day to see them become
stronger.

Mr:. SCOTT here proposed the adjournment of the
debate.

Mr. HUME considered that his Hon. Friend who had
brought forward the motion had stated the whole case of
the colonies so fully, that further discussion, by adjourn-
ment, was not necessary. He therefore hoped the de-
bate would not be interrupted, but allowed to proceed;
and looking also to the concessions which the Govern-
ment had made, he thought that the adjournment was
the less called for.
Mr. ANSTEY seconded the motion of his Hon. Friend
Mr. Scott.
Mr. STAFFORD did not think that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Montrose had been in the House from twelve
o'clock.—{Laughter.)
Mr. HUME—I certainly have—l have never been
out of it.

Mr. MANGLES had been in the House fifteen hours,
yet if the House would permit him he would go on. He
admitted that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary
for the Colonies had been satisfactory in one part of his
statement—he had shown the improvements which had
taken place, and if the Hon. Gentleman had been less
chivalrous and more prudent he might have done very
well. But the Hon. Gentleman's chivalry led him into
a defence of the administration of various Colonial Se-
cretaries, and in that part of the Hon. Gentleman's speech
he (Mr. Mangles) was ready to join issue with him
The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to analyse the con-
duct of the Colonial Department in its administration of'
and dealing with the colonies, which he arraigned,
and complained of the frequent changes of officers
which took place in the office of Secretary of State
for the Colonial Department, and expressed his opinion
that the appointment of a Board of Directors, or Com-
missioners—call them what they pleased—would be at-
tended with advantages, which would correct the incon•
veniences which the charges of which he complained
gave rise to.
Mr. URQUHART called the attention of the House
to the adjournment of the debate, and supported it.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had no objection to the
adjournment of the debate.
Mr. SCOTT—Then I move the adjournment of the
debate for a fortnight.—Agreed to.
SIERRA LEONE.
Mr. ANSTEY rose to move for papers relating to the
charges brought by Governor Macdonald against Tho-
mas O'Brien, Esq., late Colonial Secretary of Sierra
Leone, and the counter charges by the latter gentleman
against the former, and the decision of the Colonial-office
on the subject. The Hon. Gentleman was preceeding
to address the House, when
An Hois. MEMBER moved that the House be counted.
There being only 34 Members present, the House
stood adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock.

RAILWAY SHARE MARKETS.
BRISTOL, JULY 25.
STOCK EXCHANGE. —The market was generally quiet,
and few sales were effected, the holders of shares trying for
an advance of prices. Great Western Quarter Shares were
dune at 2 dis.

LIVERPOOL, Jura- 25.
STOCK EXCHANGE.—We have a dull and gloomy market
for shares. Prices are lower, and little business doing, The
sales are—East Lancashire, Preference, % p.—Lancashire
and Yorkshire, 10/. Shares, Preference, % p.—London and
North-Western, 125 c.—Ditto, New Quarters, 11/i" p.—Mid-
land Stock, 103 c.—Ditto, New Halves, 6 dis.—Newcastle
and Carlisle, 108—North Union (A), 206—Shrewsbury and
Chester, 101. Shares, Preference, 13—South-Eastern and
Dover, No. 1,8% c. dis.—Ditto, No. 4, Thirds, 27R c.
MANCHESTER, JULY 25.
Sirocx EXCIIANGE.—The sales are—Caledonian, Pre-
ference, % p.—Great Northern, 8 13-16—Lanca.shire and
Yorkshire, 10/. Preference, 6 per emit., % p.—Manchester,
Sheffield, and Lincolnshire, 10/. Preference, 10 ►ii—Ditto
(Sheffield and Lincolnshire), 10 dis.—Shrewsbury and
Birmingham (B), dis.—South-Eastern and Dover, No.
4,2% dis.

BIRMINGHAM, JULY 25.
STOCK EXCHANGE.—The sales are—North Staffordshire,
535. 9d. dis.—Shrewsbury and Birmingham (A), 51. Gs. 3d.
dis, ex int.—Ditto (B), 565. 3d. dis. ex int.—Shropshire
Union, 565. 3d. dis. ex int.—South Staffordshire, 635. 9d. dis.
YORK, JULY 24.
STOCK EXCHANGE.—The business transacted to-day was
as follows : Great Northern, 6 LA— North British, Extension,
4s. 3d.—York, Newcastle, and Berwick (G. N. E. Pur-
chase), 914.
NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE, JULY 25.
STOCK EXCHANGE.—The only sale was—Newcastle and
Carlisle, 107%.