The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-29 00:00:00

exceedingly dangerous if in this case they refused to punish the
contempt of the House committed by the Hon. Member for the
I city of Limerick ; and in giving his support to the original
motion, he conceived that he was merely discharging his duty.
He maintained that 'he. existence of the legidative body de-
pended in a great measure upon the proper compliance with the
orders and regulations of the House. What respect would be
paid to the Legislature, if its members were found to be incapa-
ble of enforcing laws for their own good? He hoped, therefore,
that the House would persist in pressing the original motion.
One Hon. Member had said that no man ought to vote upon
that motion who was not prepared to vote for a direct punish.
ment of the contempt ; and another Hon. Member had sug-
gested, that if the original motion should be passed, the House
ought to give the Hon. Member an opportunity of expressing
his apology to the House for the contempt of which he had been
guilty. But he (Sir R. H. Inglis) was not prepared even to
grant that delay, because he felt that such delay had never yet
been granted to any other individual Member of that House
who had been found guilty of a disobedience to its orders. He
saw no good for such delay. All Members, whether Irish or
English, were bound to attend to those orders ; and, as in the
case of the 'aws of the land, no plea of ignorance was admitted ;
so, in this case, the Hon. Member for the city of Limerick
should not be permitted to plead an ignorance of the rules of
the House. It could not be argued that the Hon. Member
had not had sufficient notice of the order of the House, because
it was regularly published will the other notices. The lion.
Member was clearly bound to attend on a railway Commit•
tee as well as upon any other conceivable measure that came
before the House, if he were selected to attend. Under all
these circumstrnces, he could not but feel that it was the abso-
lute duty of the House to agree to the motion of his Hon.
Friend and colleague.
Mr. FITZGERALD, amidst some impatience, said that he
hoped the House would permit him to make a few observations
on this subject. It was very interesting to every Irish mem-
ber, and therefore he thought that he was entitled to the indul-
gence of the House for a few moments. The Hon. Member
for Limerick had conceived it to be his right to deny the right
of the House to compel him to attend upon a railway Com-
mittee, and he (Mr. Fitzgerald) was in hopes that his Hon.
Friend would not have persisted in trying that question. The
opinion entertained by his Hon. Friend on this subject was par.
ticipated in by the majority of the people of Ireland. He, for
his own part, had not yet heard any argument that would in-
duce him to concede with the views Of the Attorney-General
on this question. On the contrary, all that he had heard only
induced him to give his support to the amendment proposed by
the Hon. Member (Mr. Warburton). The Hon. Member for
Montrose (Mr. Hume) had stated that the Members of the
House were bonnd to perform all duties of the House; and he
(Mr. Fitzgerald) begged to observe to the Hon. Member, that
the Irish Members were in a peculiar situation. The Hon.
Member should recollect that the majority of the Irish Mem-
bers had been elected on the condition of not attending to any
duties in that House.--( Great laughter.) The Hon. Member,
in reply to the statement that it was a prevalent opinion that
there was a great difference between English and Irish Mem-
bers, had said that there was indeed a difference between them,
and it was this, that the Irish Members were net subject to the
payment of the income-tax. But that Hon. Member should
remember; that the majority of the Irish Members resided
during the greater portion of the year in England, and thereby
subjected themselves to the payment of that tax. Undoubtedly
if the Government had thought that the amount to be received
in Ireland in the shape of income- tax would have yielded any-
thing to their aoffer•, they would have subjected Ireland to the
income-tax.—( Hear, hear.) He was confidently of opinion
that his Hon. Friend, the Member for Limerick, in refusing to
comply with the rules of the House, had no intention of con-
temning them ; he acted under the belief that he was dis-
charging his duty to his country, and he, therefore, could not
vote for the original motion.—(" Hear, hear," and loud cries
of "Divide, divide.")
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. The House
divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment .. 15
Against it .................................... 139
Majority
The House then divided upon the original motion, when
there appeared--
In favour of
Against
Majority
120
Upon our re-admission into the gallery, we found
Mr. ESTCOURT moving that the Hon. Member for
Limerick should be committed to the custody of the Sergeant-
at-A rms.
Colonel RAWDON then rose and bore testimony to the
character of the Hon. Member for Limerick. He considered
that he had acted upon a mistaken principle. He had looked
upon his duty more in the light of what he had to do out of
the House, rather than what he had to do in it. He thought
that the House should allow some time to the Hon. Member in
order to give him an opportunity of reconsidering his position.
He contrasted his character with the Hon. Members for Cork
and Kilkenny, who, entertaining the same political opinions,
had nut shrunk from the performance of their duties. The
House Laving asserted its dignity in so unequivocal a manner,
he thought the Hon. Member might be induced to retrace his
steps.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL did not wish to accept any compli-
ment at the expense of his Hon. Friend the Member for Lime-
rick. He, the Hon. Member for Limerick, had performed
faithfully what he considered to be his duty, and he thought
his sincerity should be respected ; he thought some time should
be allowed to the Hon. Member to reconsider his position. If
they did not do so, it would be considered by the Irish people
aseaproof ofhrimher
hostility to
might thelhrtishsa Members.—( ,
N
embee, nrs.-OJ, butCrie he `k` No, Cries of ` Neow,
no.") Hon.
that the sympathies of the people were now with the Hon.
Member. He thought that a Commission ought to be ap-
pointedstandng
tothiantqauimreoatniodnrwepaosrtabinotuot
ttehehecimrcaudme,sttahneceHs.en.Under-
Mem-
ber declined to press the motion.
Lord MORPETH had given most reluctantly two votes
upon the question then before the House, and was prepared to
vote in favour of the Hon. Member for Oxford's motion, ex-
cept some sufficient reason should be shown to the contrary ; but
after the large majorities of this House, he thought that some
little time should be given to the Honourable Member, in order
to ascertain whether he would not himself now be prepared to
yield to the clearly ascertained opinion of that House. It had
been stated in the course of the debate, that the Hon Member
for Limerick did not entertain any precise notion that the con-
duct he intended to pursue would be regarded as an act of
contempt to the orders of the House. The House had ex-
pressed its opinion. It would seem considerate in them to see
whether the expressed opinion had ha,.cl any effect upon the
Hon. Member. Most earnestly he wished this might be the
case —( Hear, hear)—looking to the number of the notices
which the Hon. Member had upon the paper, and the various
subjects connected with the interests in Ireland, upon which
he had taken an active part. Let the Hon. Member not forget,
that he had been following the example set by the Honourable
Member for Cork, who certainly, in no less degree than for
no shorter period of time, had been occupied in subjects con-
cerning the welfare of the Irish people. He had no; thought
it inconsistent with his devotion to the Irish people, or with his
advocacy of the repeal of the union, to take his part in com-
mon with all other Members of that House, in dispatching
the local business of the House, whether English, Irish, or
Scotch. The Hon. Member for Limerick should not forget
that English and Scotch Members had not shown themselves
backward in attending to Irish business. Unusual facilities
had been given, both by that House and the House of Lords,
to Irish Bills. He thought the House would stand better in
the eyes of the people of this country, and that of Ireland, if
it allowed the Hon. Member an opportunity to bow to the
general sense of the House. If, unfortunately, the House
should not be prepared to grant this delay, he thought the
better course would be to adopt the motion similar to that
of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny. He proposed that the
Hon. Member for Oxford should withdraw his motion, and
that the Hon. Member for Limerick be requested to attend
in his place, in order that the Speaker might communicate to
him the decision of the House.
Mr. ESTCOURT had been governed by precedent in the
course he had adopted, and he knew of no precedent to with-
draw his motion. He could only be guided by precedent. It
would be entirely nnbecomming in him to withdraw his motion.
Mr. WARD considered that the House surely did not need
a precedent in order to give an Hon Member time to come to
a calm consideration. The Hon. Member was not required to
withdraw his motion—he was only required to postpone it.
He was himself employed for seventeen days upon a Galway
Committee last year, but he never dreamt of asking whether
it was an Irish or an English Committee delegated to him by
Parliament.--( Hear, hear.) He hoped the Hon. Member
would consent to postpone his motion.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that his suggestion was, that the
motion be postponed. He spoke for himself ; he had had no
communication with Mr. S. O'Brien ; but he considered, by a
delay of two days, they would not in the least be tarnishing
the dignity of the House. In the meantime, it was to be hoped
that the Hon. Member might feel himself at liberty to pursue
a course which would be more consistent with the feelings of
the House.

Sir R. PEEL said that the House had decided by a very
large majority that a contempt of its authority had been com-
mitted, and it manifested in that majority a decided determina-
tion to support its authority. Yet at the same time he did not
think that that dignity would be prejudiced by giving the Hon.
Gentleman some time for calm consideration, that they might
not throw any difficulty in the way of the Honourable Gentle-
man's pursuing a different course, and he did trust, with the
advice of his friends he would be guided by more moderate
counsels. He trusted the opinion of the Honourable Member,
which he -o highly valued upon these subjects, and who was
entitled to the gratitude of the country for the part which he
had taken, purely out of a sense of public duty, would
not consider that they were establishing an inconvenient prece-
dent by the course they were about to adopt.—( Hear, hear.)
He believed that forbearance was the wisest course which they
could pursue, and he was therefore for postponing the debate
until Thursday next, and in the meantime the Hon. Member,
seeing the opinion which had been expressed, might be induced
to retrace his steps by the advice otftohis fi iends.. .
be misunderstood. Ido
pursue course
b will the
which the House would wish.
wHiestin.ni%olemMember
to do. reason for opposing the
Mr. WYSE did not see any . g
course
notl‘ Iprced°g'eCm°yNseNlfEthLaLt —the
M.proposed. If it was unusual, the circumstances were novel ;
Sir R. PEEL—Oh, no ; we have not understood you so
h considered that by adopting it they were establishing
a bad precedent, he would at once oppose it.
Lord MORPETH wished that it should be understood,
that he did not desire that the House should pursue any
course but that which should appear most consistent with its
suggestion
ieo
rid at_vh. r—o
w(
uH eoaurt. 4
own dignity. He did wish that some breathing time should
be allowed by having the debate adjourned, as the Hon.
Member might have an opportunity of retracing his steps.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped, that
Me be
business
tubers,
it would be understood that in adjourning the debate, it should
House would
Sir R. HARRY INGLIS said, that he hoped '
in con-
ttt
hha
ekeAeft
cwr
ap.
osrHeelfaAeosrft‘evns:cpneeesaokocveoferurstc.thuhereirre otherconcurred
n with b ui‘tsihi
senting to what appeared to be a concession in
remember to enforce the same principle when the case of an
individual member came under their consideration_
Mr. E. BURKE ROCHE said it was his
pauin.fril( Idlayr.)
put an end to the present discussion. The Hon. Memberut for
Limerick felt so strongly on this subject, that he thought it
quite unnecessary that any further delay should be interposed
between the motion of theh Hon. Member for Oxford.—(Cries
of " Oh, ,"" hear, ear.") He (Mr. Roche) hoped
that Hon. Members would not consider that he was perform_ ( Hear, hear. )
ing an agreeable duty.— He assured the House
that nothing but his sense of duty stood his friendship for the
Hon. Member, could induce him gup in his place and
make the statement which he had done. But his Hon.
Friend was so convinced of the rectitude of the course which
he had adopted, and so impressed with its propriety, that his
resolution remains unchanged, and he (Mr. Roche) did not
consider it his duty to conceal the facts of the case.
Sir R. PEEL—I doubt whether we had not better pursue
our own course. The House was willing to establish a pre-
cedent, that time for consideration should be allowed; and I
do think, after the course which it seems willing to pursue,
that there will be a general desire that we had better not
change that course from any statement which may be made.
Mr. BULLER considered that the House would be con-
sulting its own dignity in the best mode by allowing a short
period to elapse before they should proceed to any step, and,
in the meantime, the difficulty might be got over.
Mr. ESTCOURT said be had not the slightest hesitation
suggestion of the Hon in adopting the sugge
debate * Gentleman ;he would
move that the be then adjourned, and that
accordingly
f rivat b •
it
The debate was be resumed at the
then adj time 0
ourned.e p bossiness on Thursday next.