The Sun.
London, England, 1848-05-16 00:00:00

,THE SUNt, LONDO

TUESDAY s EVENING-, MAY 16, 1848.

Mr. Bancroft's language to me was—" We are ready to
do anything you will do. If you can do but little, we
would do but little. If you will do much, we will do
much too. If you will do all, we will do all."—(Loud
cheers.) Sir, I requested Mr. Bancroft to put his views
into shape in a formal communication, and the conse-
uence was a letter which he addressed to my Noble
Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs,
which I will take the liberty of reading to the House:—
" American Legation, Nov. 3, 1847.
" The undersigned, Envoy Extraordinary and Minis-
ter Plenipotentiary of the United States of America, has
the honour to inquire of Viscount Palmerston, her
Britannic Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs, if her Majesty's Government is inclined
to remove existing restrictions on international cum-
nlerce. Universal reciprocity, in the widest sense, is
held by the American Government as the only
thoroughly appropriate basis for intercourse between
!1,0 great nations. The prohibition of the indirect trade
tag but restrained enterprise; it has done good to neither
country. To abrogate it would at once set free dormant
commercial wealth, without injuring any one. Should
her Majesty's Government entertain similar views, the
undersignedo is prepared, on the part of the American
f 1 'eminent, to propose that British ships may trade
!folli any port in the world to any port in the United
.ates, and lae received, protected, and in respect to
charges and duties treated like American ships; if, re-
ii.l,,lit°"llY, American ships may in like manner trade
Y Port of the world to any port under the domi-
lon of her Britannic Majesty. The removal ot corn-
taa.ercial restrictions, while it would be of mutual
could
to the material interests of both countries,
'aou,ld not but give openings to still further relations of
__lnltY between them, and by its influence on the inter-
cotirse of nations,
the world. create new guarantees for the peace of

S • . " GEORGE BANCROF. Td."t
Sir I will not read the reply of my Noble Friend
sledancroft; suffice it to say, that my Noble Friend
on the part of her Majesty's Government, that
they did not feel themselves at liberty to enter into nego-
tiations with the United States of America upon prin-
ciples obviously subversive of the navigation-laws as they
now stand, and although they conceded that such a
!purse would not be justifiable on the part of the Bri -
;ash Government without the previous sanction of Par-
lift meat, yet her Majesty's Government were prepared to
make to Parliament such recommendations as they
T!usred would meet the views expressed by Mr. Bancroft
b part of the Government of the United States.
Sir, concurrently with that warning from Prussia,
twalleie whole I believe, Prussia gave not only in the name of
hole of Germany, but in the name of ell other
countries so restricted, with that warning
we had this
invitation from America. I think this did constitute an
opportunity which I should indeed lament to see thrown
sure of f anb
although I am quite aware of the pres-f
this session,
public besiness on the House in the course of
. 'loh. yet I should indeed have lamented if her
Majesty' Government had been obliged, by any cir-
curastances, to forego the offerlievin giving this House, at the least,
of availing ourselves of this opportunity, be-
tkat e
tgh " I d. 0, not only that it is of great consequence
, navigation-laws should be placed on a sound
1111 Q pro f ,
that n per : '°ntior4, but also that it is of consequence
o time should be lost in availing ourselves of this
(3‘,„PhPieertaiY, and that say hould not follow that course
ii, I am sorry to has attended all preceding
alterations of our navigation-laws, namely, come some-
what too late, and not until great practical evils have
tibeen entailed on the country. Sir, I have now stated to
I
e House, in a general manner, what the law is, and .
have stated to them my reason for believing that it
youldise inconsistent with the interests of this country
to maintain the law in its present state. I will now
proceed to state to the House what are the alteratioils -
which, on the part of her Majesty's Government,
aro prepared to make. And, Sir, I will begrh
With those parts of our navigation- laws which
J• do not propose to alter. Sir, it is not my
intention to recommend to the House to make
any material alteration with regard to the coasting
trade to this country. It is not that I am unable to say
to the Rouse that I believe that if we threw open the
coasting trade foreigners could by no possibility, to any
great xtees
e --ea avail themselves of it. On the contrary,
.1
ant bound to admit, that if there is any part of our na.vi-
"i°n-htves that is more protected by nature from foreign
Interference than another, it is the coasting trade of this
count
•••--rY• • But Sir, on the other hand, if that is the case,
- think it must' be admitted also that throwing open the
wasting trade would produce no very great amount of
good. But if foreigners are by nature
practically
eve that
ex-
eluded from our coasting trade, I cannot believe
admitting them by law would produce any very great
amount of good. Under these circumstances, Sir, my
desire is not to recommend to the House any alteration
Which I think I cannot lay a
. foundation for in a case
of urgent and absolute necessity, and in professing that
opinion I shall,
tcl;rinckun do more in consonance
with prudence and circumspection in dealing with
i subject of this magnitude, in which the feelings as
Well as the interests of this country are deeply
involved—l say, Sir, I shall do more in consonance with
that prudence and circumspection, seeing that there
Would be no benefit by throwing open the coasting-trade
—seeing also that there is no chance that foreigners may
imitate us in this respect, believing that it would cause
very considerable alarm among the merchants and ship-
owners, and other classes in this country—alarm which
I should not myself share—l confess that on the whole
it is a more prudent and convenient course not to ask
the House to interfere with that case. I will also add,
that we should create a difficulty with regard to our re-
venue, the revenue police of our coast, by the admission
of foreigners to the unrestricted privilege of our coasting
trade. On this ground her Majesty's Government have
come to the determination of not recommending to this
House to interfere with the navigation laws as they new
stand with regard to the coasting trade. Sir, for
reasons somewhat similar, but I think stronger in
degree, I also do not intend to propose to the House
to make any alteration in the law which restricts
the fisheries to English vessels. I do not propose
e
to alter the navigation laws with regard to th
fisheries of this country. The whale fisheries will be
affected indirectly by the general alterationfisheries we
which
we Propose to make, but with our own
do not propose any alteration. But, Sir, having made
these two reservations, I confess that I shall propose to
this House to deal in a very general manner with the
remainder of the system of our navigation-laws. The
truth is, it all hangs together. It is very difficult to
separate one from another. Upon the best consideration
't have been enabled to give to the subject, I believe
there would be little practical advantage in doing so.
And moreover, I am bound to say, having looked into
"wae?, of the several remaining parts—l mean those parts
k importation_
-;"Leh restrict the of goods from the ports of
Asia, Africa, and America, and from Europe, into this
ceuntry other than in British ships—l will say that part
°I our navigation•laws which is designed to protect our
eharrying trade, I say I cannot believe that this country
" anY. real interest in retaining those—at least as far as
regards foreign countries that may be disposed to reels
With us in respect to these matters. I therefore
tPose, by Act of Parliament, altogether to strike from
.„ e
sh tatute-book the existing system.—(Cheers.) But
all advise the House not to deprive the Queen in
va ouneil of that power which she already possesses under
sil'etashanY statutes, of imposing countervailing duties, if
treat-411
8° think fit, upon any foreign nation that may
this our
ships with injustice. I do not propose that
psPe°Bowtehr sthould be obligatory on the Cro.wn. I do not
d f th
interests ;• , where it may not be considere or e
hi s 0 this
eountry—for the mere sake of returning
ow for this
for
Crown sh the mere sake of retaliation, that the
°pant .fould be obliged to impose restrictions on any
lions rYI they should think fit to impose similar restric-
t would be our navigation. But, Sir, I do not think it
of all expedient so completely to strip this country
wort
olVwer, under all possible circumstances, under any
foreign aggravation or injustice, of retaliating on a
whteett. power, as to deprive the Crown of that power
h it already possesses under so many Acts of Par-
ah:lent
Plain • I do not know whether I have clearly ex-
s ed to the House the plan which I propose.
14r k PEEL—With regard to the fisheries? . ' r• L
Ram ABOUCLIERE—I mean no alteration with re-
-n_, . to the fisheries whatever. The privileges which
hive, vessels have on our coasts now they will still
n,`7,,. They rest not more on the navigation laws than
tmattne treaties and international rights, and the law of
I°ll3. I do not propose any alteration there. And
nowthe 48 to the views of the Government with regard to
oth navigation laws, properly so called. But there are
of er elaactrnenss, which I adverted to at the beginning
es„tn theeech, which it is absolutely necessary I should
2". attention of the House to in conjunction
with these alterations. These are the acts which
regulate the character
of British vessels—l mean the
cminership, building, and manning. Sir, I think in ex-
P°!ing the British shipowner in this manner to the unre-
strteted competition—it may be with all parts of the
atvoorld—l think it is but reasonable that we should afford
the itni every facility in obtaining his ships at
to
do
aeapest rate.—(Hear hear.) I therefore propose
the ri:haY with that restriction which at present limits
built %hi'. equally to British registered as to British
... Lis,. I
shall be 'entitl A PrnPse that a ship built abroad
to ownerahip,ei te be British registered. With regard
There not alteration. propose to make any material
law which I 5110414,ra some anomalies in the present
to the general prinen'Pose to redress, but with regard
do not intend to nide etst of registering British ships, I
registering the manni4Yiehange ; and with regard to
British ships engageti in still to require that
se the coasting trade should
have crews entirely consplo
I do not propose to alter thed °F
British seamen ; and
crews of British ships engaged itiwiti7et eerieggnatrrdaelten butthn
Brit
jui.d have two-thirds of
still to require that they
their crews composed of
Ps, e is one nmona--
nected with the manning of our still i seamen.irthre
before
II
terial alteration which I propose.
I allude
proceed, to the
question of apprentices. But
ith regard to
should say that there is one alteratio
ort!
Britishlhlndi
manning which I propose, namely, than
seas the Lascars shall have the character
pa r mo ia (i? ns
e-
Then, for I think it really is absurd and unjust "a-
tain a distinction in that case, and therefore wet
to place the Lascars on the same footing as
seamen, believing they are entitled to it Britishl,,
their excellent conduct, and by the fidelity which theY
have shown to the British nation. I propose altogetii,-,
to abrogate the necessity which i 3 now imposed on
British ships of taking apprentices. I believe that
obligation is one of the most burdensome nature, anti I
believe it is of no use whatever in increasing the quantity
of British sailors, or in manning our navy. I believe
that it has totally failed in that respect, and is a most
unjust restriction placed on the British shipowner. At
resent, its effect is such that one sixth of the crews of
British ships it is calculated consists of boys. But the
consequence which this violent disturbance of the labour
market of this partinnlar branch naturally produces is to
drive the able-bodied 34 amen out of the ships into which
14 egs boys are introduced. Us is obliged to take himself
do the Aua •
en°4l% 11117 Y, QV the Swedish nary, or say other

navy where he can find employment, because we have
overstocked the labour market of our commercial marine
by calling these boys into the service, and driving out
the able-bodied seaman. My own belief is, that instead
of answering the object it was intended to promote,
namely, of increasing the nnmber of able-bodied seamen
in the British navy, and thus making a nursery for our
military marine, it has produced exactly the reverse,
without in the slightest degree increasing the number or
improving the character of the seamen engaged in our
commercial marine. The law now obliges a certain
number of apprentices to be taken in proportion to the
tonnage of every ship, and I propose to abrogate that,
by leaving it perfectly free for every shipowner to em-
ploy boys and men as he thinks fit. I cannot help on
this point reading the evidence giving before the Navi-
gation-law Committee by Sir Edward Stirling last year :
—" It throws the older persons out of employment at
times when trade is not very brisk, and leaves them no
alternative but to seek employment in foreign service.
The law requires that about a sixth part of the whole
number of seafaring persons shall at all times be appren-
tices; but, if too many seamen are made by this process,
the hardship falls upon the old sailor, who is thrown out
of employment, or is prevented from gettieg full em-
ployment. It appears to be an arbitrary interference
with the labour market; is at all times a hardship upon
the shipowner, and at certain times a hardship upon
the seaman." Mr. Duncan Dunbar says, "We being
compelled to take apprentices entails a very consider-
able expense, and very considerable inconvenience,
If not obliged to send boys, I should send a ship with
twenty able-bodied men. I now send her with fourteen
able-bodied men and six ordinary men, and six appren-
tices. The ships could be better manned if we were not
compelled to send boys, and there would in that case be
more security for the lives of the people on board." Sir,
I think I have now stated the outline of the measure
which I propose to the House on the part of her Ma-
jesty's Government.
Mr. HERMES here, across the table, in a low tone of
voice, requested some furt her explanation.
Mr. LABOUCHERE—I will recapitulate the propo-
sition. I propose to preserve, unaltered, the coasting
trade and the fisheries of the mother country, and of
the colonial possessions of her Majesty. With regard
to the coasting trade of the colonies, there is a
modification which I omitted to state, which I will
allude to presently. With that exception, I propose
absolutely to throw open the whole navigation
of this country of every sort and description.
But I propose to retain to the Queen is
Council the power of appointing such restrictions
upon the navigation of foreign countries as she
may think proper, if those countries do not us meet on
the same terms. We do not render it obligatory on the
the Queen in Council to exercise that power, but we
enable her to do so, as may seem best for the interests
of the country. With regard to the coasting ltrade of
the colonies, in the Bill I shall bring in, to preserve it in
the same manner as I do the coasting trade of the
mother country - but I also propose to allow each co-
lony, if it shall think fit, to pass an Act throwing its
coasting trade open to foreign countries, and that Act;
with the consent of the Queen given in the regular way,
will enable the colony to deal with its coasting trade ss it
shall think best. It was necessary to do this in order to
place Canada in a right position. Our object is to give
the colonies, as far as possible, the most unlimited power
of making their own navigation-laws. If the colonies
wish to have their coasting trade thrown open, I should
be very sorry to prevent them so doing ; and therefore
we propose to enable the legislatures to adopt any
measures they please with the consent of the Crown—
Mr. GOULBURN—Antigua, for instance.
Mr. LABOUCHERE That is the inter-colonial
trade. We propose, that by a Bill, the colonies may
make their own navigation• laws, but that the Queen
'shall have the power of restriction, as I previously
stated. I will now shortly recapitulate my statement
with regard to the manning, ownership, and build of
vessels. I propose that to entitle a vessel to the cha
meter of a British ship it shall not be necessary that
she shall be British built, but it shall be necessary that
she should be a British-owned ship. I also propose a
restriction as to men in the same proportion as now ex-
ists. The whole crew of a coasting vessel must be
British, and a foreign trading vessel must have three-
fourths—
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK—You said two-thirds
before.
Mr. LABOUCHERE—I made a mistake, I do not
propose to alter that regulation. But I propose alto-
gether to do away with th necessity of having a certain
proportion of apprentices. This, Sir, is the outline of
Ilse alterations which I have ventured to submit to the
consideration of Parliament. I do not disguise
from myself that they are of very grave
and serious nature—that they go to the founda-
tion of what we have hitherto considered as
the navigation-laws of this country. I can assure the
House that it is only after the fullest and most mature
consideration, after having come to the complete con-
viction in my own mind that the course which I propose
is really the best for the great interests involved, that I
have ventured to propose it to the House. Sir, I cannot
but believe that this very competition will really
increase the marine of the country. Look at the
way in which it has prospered in proportion as
restriction has been removed and freedom esta-
blished. I recollect what was said when Mr. Huh,-
kisson introduced his celebrated measure in the year
1826, by which he so greatly threw open the trade of
this country to foreign competition. I remember the
prognostics which were uttered of the ruin it would
bring on the British maritime interest. I beg to re-
mind the House of what really has been the result of
that legislation. In the year 1824 the tonnage of the
United Kingdom—the registered tonnage—amounted to
2,348,000 tons, and the colonial to 211,000 tons, making
a total or 2,559,000 tons. In the year 1847 the tonnage
of the United Kingdom was 3,307,000 tons, and the
colonial was 644,000, making a total of 3,952,000 tons,
and being an increase of 1,393,000 tons. Now, Sir I

think these figures prove there may be an ebb and a flow
of prosperity, but taking the two periods of 1824 and
1847, and lookir.g at the immense increase of tonnage at
the end of that period, I think it clearly proves that the
relaxation then made by Mr. Huskisson has not been
pro luctive of that injury which so many persons believed
would flow to the navigation and commerce of this
country. And, Sir, if I turn from the general commerce
of the country to that part of it which has specially been
open to the competition of other countries, and compare
it with that part of our commerce which has been spe-
cially protected, I find nothing in the comparison of the
effects of the two systems to discourage me from pro-
ceeding onwards in the course of commercial liberality.
Sir, I hold in my hand a return the contents of which
were comeaunicAted to the Committee of the navigation-
laws last year. I mean the statement of the tonnage of
British ships which entered the ports of the United
Kingdom, and also of fbreign ships each year from 1824
to 1846, distinguishing the tonnage employed in trade
to foreign countries and British possessions, and that
employed in protected and unprotected trade. Now, I
know that a great deal has been said about this return
not being a fair return.—(Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stamford (Mr. Har-
ries) cheers that statement, and therefore he does not
c insider this a fair return. Now, this much lam
prepared to admit to the Right Hon. Gentleman,
that the terms used as the heading of this return
are not strictly applicable. The word " unprotected"
does not strictly describe the return. It should be less
protected instead of unprotected. But this I must say
in justification of the officer of the Board of Trade who
drew up this return, that it was the distinction made
before the Committee in the navigation-laws by one of
the gentlemen who, I believe, fought most steadily the
battle of protection there, Mr. G. F. Young. He de-
scribed one class of vessels in that trade as protect' d,
arid the other as engaged in the unprotected trade.
Therefore I do not think that any blame is to be at-
tached to the gentleman who drew up the return. But
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite will at least admit
to me that there is a broad distinction between these two

classes of trade. One of them is strictly and closely
protected, and the other is less protected, and in which
we are exposed to competition with those countries
with which we are trading. Now, Sir, the result of this

. .
return is this, that the protected trade was, in 1824, of
British vessels, 893,000 tons in round numbers.
In the year 1846 the tonnage was 1,735,000,
being an increase of 184 per cent. Then in
the less protected trade, as I will call it, being the
more correct expression—the less protected trade
amounted in the year 1824 to 904,000 tons, and in 1846
to 2,558,000 tons. I know the Right Hon. Gentleman
will say that that includes the rapid voyages of steamers;
but that will apply to both sides of the return equally.
There is no difference in that respect. In reference to
this return, I will call time attention of the House to the
comparative effect upon British and foreign ships en-
gaged in this less protected trade. This is a statement
taken from the British and foreign ships entered from
foreign countries against each year, from 1824:to 1846,
with the per centage of increase in each year. The ton-
nage of British ships iu 1824 which entered the United
Kingdom from foreign countries was 904,000 tons. In
1846 the tonnage amounted to 2,558,000. Of foreign
ships, in 1824, the tonnage was 758,060; and in 1846
it was 1,883,000. The
iTnh e
thisi nerleeassse,
ptrhoetreeeltoerde ,
troafdße,rithisahs
shipping n
amounted to 1,654,000 tons, or 182 per cent. in round
numbers; and the foreign increase 1,044.000 tons, or
137 per cent. That shows, therefore, that the shipping
in the less protected trade has increased more than
that in those trades which are strictly monopolies, anti
showing, likewise, that in this comparatively unpro-
tected state of the British shipping there has actually
been a greater increase than in the foreign shipping.
Sir, I have stated my reasons for believing that British
commerce and British shipowners will not be injured
by the alteration of the law that I have proposed. Sir,
I have no apprehension either that the British ship.
builder will be injured by this alteration. When I
ecnsider the great national advantages of this counttry
with regard to our manufacture of ships—when I con-
sider its capital, its abundant supply of iron, of cordage,
and of paint--and that supply of timber, which I be-
lieve gives a greater choice to the British shipbuilder
tl'anin any other place in the world he can have at
i e
s -"nl34nd—Sir, I cannot believe that there is
blveiitiheiethe
awniyil real disadvantage to the shipbuilder, or that he
er by being brought into competition
shipbuildera of foreign countries. I
corn • Sir, that it is a great mistake in cora-
raring the cost of ships built in different parts of the
world, to look
in thei• constri4erely at the amount of money expended
quality lf the shu' -. We should also consider the
belief i5...1 area Ps there built, and their durability. My
fence ant durabil
tails on th • lb SUbjoet..._b '
ved tiat, takin
nitw_ysillincr to weary the house with de-
Pro h- ut nty belief is that it can be
strutted it any part J
time to btild ships full'
British ships, we are able at this
of cheap construction, ship, considering the excel-
long since hay. bean
lions of 4iip building de
jpthf:e:u al
world. Sir, if the competi.
to those which are con.
the British builder would
merely on the circum-
stancedriven away from the market, not

by foreigners, but by that competition to which he is now
exposed, without any protection whatever—l mean the
competition of our own colonists. The cheapest ships
in the world are those which are built in our own British
North American colonies. For some purposes they are
extremely useful, and, for the same purposes, it is a great
advantage to the shipowner to have access to those
ships. It might be supposed that this would tell
I against the ship-building of England ; but it is
not so ; for while the colonial ship-building has
greatly increased, the trade in ship-building on
the English coast has enormously increased also.
My belief is, that, in addition to choice of timber and
materials, we have also the best and cheapest labour in
the world. If we repeal the restrictions of the naviga-
tion-laws, all foreign materials necessary for the con-
struction of ships will be brought to England far cheaper
than they now are, and in that also the shipowner will
derive a considerable advantage. Upon the whole, I am
satisfied, that when the House shall come to examine
that part of the subject, it will see that it is a matter of
justice to the British shipowner to remove those protec-
tions, to allow him access to foreign-built ships if he so
thinks fit, and that by doing so it will run no risk
whatever of destroying that valuable and important
branch of trade in the hands of our own countrymen.
On the contrary, my belief is, that the sort of stimulus
thus given to British ship-building will be of the most
salutary kind. I can discover no reason why we should
lag in this particular behind any foreign country in the
world. If in some particulars the United States of
America appear to excel us in the construction of ships,
I am sure it can only be owing to the monopoly which
has hitherto existed ; if you remove that, you
will give a salutary stimulus to the interests
of British trade, and I do not see any reason we should
not sustain ourselves under the competition of foreigners.
It seems to me that those who maintain that ships cannot
be built as cheaply in this country as in any other part
of the world, ought also to maintain that we cannot
make any other article of manufacture as cheaply. I
cannot conceive any argument of that kind which will
not apply, in an infinitely stronger degree, . to other
great articles of manufacture- I now come to an objec-
tion which I know has the greatest weight in the minds
of many men, and if I believed myself in its truth and
validity I confess I should think that all the arguments
I have adduced in favour of those changes ought to go
for nothing; I mean, that it would be destructive to
the military, marine, and naval greatness of this
country. That opinion has the sanction of some
great names, and among others, of Adam Smith, who
says, that " as defence is better than commerce, so
the navigation-laws, though in his view injurious to
commerce, are wise and salutary." I will not now
enter into the inquiry, whether in the days of Adam
Smith that distinction existed; though I must express a
different opinion with modesty and doubt, my own belief
is, that that opinion is one of the few errors to be found
in him. But whatever may have been the case in his
time, I believe that argument will not apply now. The
question is, will the removal of the restrictions of the
navigation-laws increase or diminish your maritime
commerce?—(Hear, hear.) I do not agree with those
who contend tent you can separate maritime commerce
from naval power. I do not believe that a great naval
power can sa'ely be maintained on any other basis than
that of a large commercial marine ; and if I thought the
measure I mean to propose to the House were calculated
to fritter away and annihilate the commercial marine of
this country, I should be prepared to admit they would
be almost destructive to the naval greatness of this
country. But it is enough for me to show that the mea-
sure, so far from diminishing the commercial marine of
the country, will in reality increase and enlarge and
if that be the case we need never fear to have ships of
war sufficient for the defence of this country.—(Hear.)
Mr. Huskisson stated the true doctrine on this sub-
ject when he said that the only true and durable
oundation of a large commercial marine was to be found
in the means of affording them beneficial employment.
I have stated that I believe no danger is to be appre-
hended from this measure to our commercial greatness;
I wish I could say that I saw no danger to be appre•
hended from any other source ; but in my opinion the
true peril to our commercial greatness is that of raising
up the jealousies of rivals against us. I am afraid that
there are real dangers of this kind, and I must leave it
to the House to apply any remedies their wisdom may
devise for them. I hope their attention has been directed
to a very remarkable correspondence which has been for
some time laid on the table, consisting of letters from our
consuls abroad in reply to a circular sent to them from
the Foreign-office. I think no gentleman can have
perused those documents without feelings of deep regret
at the evils p-evailing in our commercial marine. Our
mercantile navy suffers exceedingly in its competition
with those of other countries—not from the want of any
protection or restriction from the State, but, I regret to
say, from evils inherent in itself, which no amount of
protection can cure, but which, on the contrary, I
believe the indirect effect of the removal of protection
will go a great way to remove. What do we find
described by almost every consul who writes from
different quarters of the globe ? They state that,
whilst the character of the British seaman for what is
technically called handling ships remains as high as ever,
still unfortunately, owing to the low character of our
shipmasters, their want of skill, and I am sorry to say
in many cases their defective morality, which produces
a very relaxed state of discipline on board of their ships,
our vessels are fast lossng their share in the commerce
of the world.—(Loud ironical cries of " Hear, hear,"
from the Protectionists.) I make that assertion ad-
visedly; it is much better to look these evils in the face
than to attempt to disguise them from ourselves. Mer-
chants, therefore, in too many instances, prefer to en-
trust their cargoes to American, Bremen, or Swedish,
rather than to British ships, on account of the injurious
effect of the circumstances I have pointed out. It is my
firm conviction that these evils have grown up very
much in consequence of the system of protection, which
leads the British shipowner not to exert himself to im-
prove the character of his ship; and I believe that the
effect of removing protection will be to secure improve-
reent.—(llear, hoar.) There are other measures con-
nected with the merchant navy which I think ought to
receive the attention of the House, two of which I
propose to introduce in the course of the present ses-
sion one affecting the question of light dues,
the other for the regulation of the merchant sea-
men's fund. There are also others which I hoped
to be able to introduce in the present session, but
which, though withdrawn for the time, I hope Parlia-
ment will deal with, and that in a manner advantageous
to the commerce of the country. I refer to the pilotage
question, and to any means which we may be enabled to
employ for ensuring a better and more competent in-
struction of British shipmasters. A measure of this
kind would be amongst the most useful which could be
devised by Parliament for the improvement of our mer-
chant navy.—(Hear, hear.) It is perhaps not surprising
that some apprehension should be felt by the class whom
it more particularly affects, with respect to the change I
propose; but I believe such apprehensions to he ground-
less. My conviction is, that in the continuance of pro-
tection they will find their ruin.—(Hear.) Protection and
monopoly will avail them nothing in remedying the evils
to which I have adverted; they will only narrow and
confine the general commerce of this country. The navi-
gation of this country must depend on its commerce; and
to suppose that anything which in the long run cripples
and narrows the commerce and manufactures of this
country can be favourable to its navigation, is, I believe,
an idle vision. This, and every other class of the com-
munity, will find their true interest in the long run in
being allowed to compete on equal terms with other
countries of the world, instead of being encumbered with
a system of protection which does them no good, but is
deeply injurious to the general interests of the country.
—(lean) I have now done—l have gone through, I
am afraid, very imperfectly, this great subject—{hear,
hear)—and I beg humbly and respectfully to recommend
eentto. thle
ndeelliiebyeerattneaat,ndifimthpeyaratirael
country at large, and to no interest of this country more
ca then o
consideration
si
:13 feh ffaPsyticert imiwaai I be greatly beneficial to this n
beneficial than that, which I value as much as any man
can d—ol mean the commercial prosperity and
ofmanufae-
ltiuerviengogisreaaittnereasstion will p
the
rßritishodce, m
insteadire. o(fi jealouslear.) rival-
riesl be-
and the irritation of foreign nations—instead of
uep—
crippled trade andeontractedmanufactures,freedom,good-
will, prosperity, and peace. I believe we shall be placing
the prosperity of England upon the best and noblest
foundation, if we can connect it, as in my opinion we
can and shall do by this measure, with the general in-
terest, the extending trade, the continued peace, advance-
ment, and prosperity of the whole civilized world.—
(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by
proposing a resolution, "That it is expedient to remove
the restrictions which prevent the 'carriage by sea be-
tween the United Kingdom and British possessions
abroad of goods in foreign vessels, subject only to such
control as her Majesty's Government may deem neces-
sary, and that it is expedient to amend the laws relating
to the registration of ships and seamen."
Mr. ELLIOT asked whether the measure would
affect that provision of the navigation-laws requiring
four men to be carried for every 100 tons?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said his Hon. Friend had
fallen into a very common error in believing that to
be the law, but it was not so. He believed the law
to be that, provided au English ship maintained the
proportion of three-fourths English seamen and one-
fourth foreign, it might carry any proportion of men to
the tonnage the owners pleased. It was only when they
had more than one-fourth of the seamen on board fo-
reigners that the other provision was applicable. Prac-
tically, the restriction did not come into play, because
ships never carried more than one-fourth of the crew
foreigners.
In answer to Mr. FORSTER,
HnNuIr.LABOUCHERE
setota
ketnthe
p preliminary
tosianid he would askleave
arysteps,whteh
wouldof
ethno
able him to bring in measures relative to the light dues
and merchant-seamen's fund ; but he had not mixed
them up in his statement.
In answer to Mr. HUME,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that Ceylon would be
treated exactly as any other British colony.
Mr. GL ADSTONE felt that on a measure of so
Right
tniu,g,cuhhl
tdpostponeHonourableimportance
any a
Gentleman's
e nt
discussionhtlee
mpresent
untilan before it w r
thern e theyhad,
atnhde
time was allowed for considering it. He rose, therefore,
only to put one or two questions on parts of the Right
'Hon. Gentleman's statement as to which he was in
some doubt. He understood the Right Honourable
Gentleman to say ;hat for the same reasons which
made it expedient to continue the existing restrictions
on the coasting trade, he thought it expedient to continue
the restrictions on the fisheries. He did not know
whether the right Honourable Gentleman had in view
e was
s better they
the exclusive Rights of fishing on certain banks and
within certain limits enjoyed by British vessels, or the
restraints imposed by our commercial laws on the im-
portation of fish in foreign vessels. By the
Customs Act of 1845 it was - enacted that
all fish of foreign taking shall not be imported
unless in vessels which shall have been cleared

out regularly with such fish on board from some foreign
port, thus preventing foreign vessels from coming di-
rect from the fisheries with fish on board to a British
port. He did not distinctly gather whether it was in-
tended to continue that restriction, or whether foreign
ships would be permitted under the law to come directly
with their cargoes from the fisheries to a Briiish port.
This was a question of great importance, not only with
respect to the supply of. the British markets with fish,
but also to the trade in whale oil, which was carried
on to so large an extent by American ves-
sels. It was material they should know whether
those vessels would be allowed to come from
the South Seas, for instance, with their oil, or whether
it must first be carried to an American port. He
also wished to know Vl hether the Right Honourable
Gentleman meant to propose to Parliament any mea-
sures relative to the education of young persons for a
seafaring life, and the examination of masters and
mates to ascertain their fitness. He could have wished,
also, to have heard some statement as to the effect of the
measure enacted a few years ago for the voluntary exa-
mination of masters and mates, so as also to know
whether Government had determined to give any further
extension to the system. The subject of naval education
appeared to him to be one of such great importance,
that he would be glad if it should be found possible to
afford aid from the public funds towards the establish•
went of schools in the seaports. He wished to knew
also whether the Right Honourable Gentleman was in a
condition to give them any further information with re-
gard to the views and intentions of foreign powers, other
than those to whom he bad alluded—Prussia and the
United States, for instance: whether there were reasons
to suppose that the views of two such maritime powers
as Sweden and Denmark would be likely to coincide
with the general provisions of the measure now
announced.

Mr. LABOUCFIERE would endeavour to answer the
Right Hon. Gentleman's questions. First, with respect
to the fisheries, he apprehended if the House were to
assent to the measure it was his duty to propose, it
would be in the power of a foreign vessel engaged in the
deep sea fishery to bring the produce of that
fishery di-
rect to this country. The alteration proposed would go
to that extent ; but with regard to the coast and bank
fisheries, it was not proposed to abandon the ancient
privileges of this country. Our own deep see fisheries
would have a better chance of competing with foreigners,
if allowed to send home their produce in any vessel,
whether native or foreign. With respect to the inten•
tions of foreign powers, other than Prussia and the
United States, Ministers ; had not thought it expe-
dient to make any overtures or to enter into any com•
munications with foreign states, until they knew the
views of the House of Commons. He felt the great
importance of the other subjects to which the Right
Honourable Gentleman adverted--11111131 education and
the examination of shipmasters. A system of voluntary
examination had been in operation for some time, which
had been adopted to a considerable extent by ship-
owners, who had availed themselves of this channel.
He was disposed to give it a further trial before attempt.
ing to substitute any compulsory system, which might be
open to objection. With respect to the subject of
schools for the instruction of seafaring persons, he
should be glad if it were to engage the attention of the
House. He had felt, in the ministerial arrangements of
the Executive Government, the want of some department
whose special business it should be to consider, protect,
and promote the interests of the mercantile marine.
I
There was no professional maritime assistant at the
' Board of Teethe and he had always felt the inconve-
assist-
ance. ce oHfedsehcioduilndgtohnerseufochre propose, in the course of thequestions without such assist-
' present session, to constitute a department of the Board
' of Trade, to be called the department of the mercantile
marine, consisting of unpaid officers, which would be
superintended by one of the Lords of the Admiralty,
thus affording to the Government, without any increase
lof expense, the means of considering such questions
with more advantage than they now could.
Mr. G. ROBINSON (who spoke amidst great confu-
sion from Members leaving the House) was understood
to say that nothing could remove from his mind the im-
pression that the great interests of the country were
most seriously menaced by the measures now proposed.
The time at which they were brought forward was
most inopportune; why not defer them until the evidence
taken before the other House had been published? lie
saw much in the labours of the Committee to confirm
the views he entertained, namely, that it would be pre-
judicial to the interests of the country to alter the navi-
gation.laws. He would not offer any factious opposition
to the measure, but he thought he might predict that it
would considerably add to the difficulties of the Go-
vernment. He saw no reason for pressing the measure
in the present session. With respect to the representa-
tions of the colonies for a repeal of these laws, the only
inference that could be drawn from them was, that those
colonies having been ruined by the free-trade policy,
now wished to indemnify themselves at the expense of
the shipping interest. He could only say that they
would be disappointed in those expectations. He denied
that the consumers would derive any benefit from the re-
peal of the navigation-laws. The difference in the amount
of freight in British vessels and foreign vessels was so
small that it could . not benefit the home consumer.
The Right Hon. Gentleman said that all the great
authorities were in favour of a repeal of these laws. Ile
denied that ; for even Mr. Huskisson himself, the first
great commercial reformer, advocated that measure only
to the extent of the reciprocity system. The effect of this
measure would be to give a stimulus to the naval power ,
of foreign countries. The Hon. Gentleman then read an I
extract from the address of the President of the United
States, which represented the marine of that country as
progressing at such a rate, that if it continued to go on
in the same way they would soon be the first maritime
country in the world. There was no doubt that the
United States was the most formidable power that this
country ever met with on the sea. Besides, a great re-
volution bad taken place in a neighbouring country, the
effect of which would be to draw closer the ties of sym-
pathy which existed already between France and Ame-
rica. Was this a time, then, for them to do anything
which would injure the naval power of the country ? He
believed that this country would come out of a contest
with those countries victorious ; but Parliament
ought to be cautious before they committed an
act which would lessen her power.—(Hear.) The
itight Honourable Gentleman said that protection was
no longer necessary for this country. He (Mr.
Robinson) believed that protection was necessary to give
employment to the working classes, and if the contrary
principle was adopted, the ruin of this country would be
the result. He did not agree in all the views of Mr.
Huskisson with respect to commerce and the navigation-
laws, but that great man never proposed any measure
that was calculated to injure the country. On one
occasion Mr. Huskisson said that when the interests of
commerce and navigation could not be reconciled, the
latter should be preferred to the former. The Right
lion. Gentleman alluded to the letter of Mr. Bancroft.
Now, it was a maxim of the executive of the United
States never to relax in carrying any point which it
thought would be beneficial to that country, and Mr.
Bancroft, having an American object in view, chose the
present time, with great tact, to write the letter which
had been read. Although it might appear very
liberal on the part of the United States to offer to
reciprocate with them, he would recommend to the
House net to be led away by that circumstance, because
the fact was, that the United States had no advan-
tages to offer to this country if she repealed the
navigation-laws, whereas the United States had very
great advantages to obtain from their repeal.—(Hear.)
The advantage would, in fact, be all on one side. lie
confessed he did not see the advantage of keeping any
colonies at all, if their trade was to be given up to
foreigners. They would not be able to give employment
to the people of the country if they gave up protection.
They would he surrounded with a labour question which
they would find very difficult of solution. Chartism was
put down, but the cause which gave birth to it still
existed, and would be aggravated if they passed this
measure. He was ready to support any measures for
extending commerce, provided they did not trench on
the fundamental principle of the navigation-laws.
Mr. HUME said he agreed with the lion. Gentleman
that the great question the country would be called on to
solve was the labour question; sod one of the reasons
which induced him to support the repeal of the naviga-
tion-laws was, that it would unfetter commerce, and
thereby open a field of employment to the working mart.
He did not think much of the exceptions made by the Go-
vernment—and perhaps they acted wisely in leaving the
coasting trade untouched. It would, at all events,
diminish the alarm of the shipping interests. He saw
last compete with those of other countries, provided they
r enpdr)ru c e d
no reason why the shipping interests of this country could
country laboured under disadvantages which, he thought,
met them on equal terms. The shipping interest
marine
faTtrithichneaeest
insuranceough ought to
removed.
high, For a instance, t ao t ruogoh
and ho believed that
(Hear, hear.) The restrictiousb._
be to leave that point
H e str , respectingh
enapr
ought also to be done away wit
the effect of this measure would
see why the principle
entirely voluntary. He could
would be a very great advanataldg
notst able to manage their
that people themselves were
beted with res ect to
own affairs should not be adop , F. the
well as with regard to all others.
shipping interest as
of the American captains,
that appeared, from the evidence. .
~__..,__
their navigation -laws injurious to
that they considered
d the free action of English
them, because they cripple
much advantage would
vessels. He thought that
the light dues. No less
be derived from a reduction of f
l' ht h or ig 90,000/.
than 400,0001. was now levied
flear, hear.) He was
would answer the purpose.—
interest itesif would have
satisfied that the shipping;
of competition was thrown
reason to rejoice that the
of the raw material of their
open. The introduction a
great advantage to the
manufactures duty free
wastmeasure was the fitting accom-
panimentcountry, and the present
de policy of late years. The
of their free-trade
site complained that only
Hon. and Gallant Captain W°
before the Committee.
one naval officer was examinedt
was
so; but the officer who
He did not know why that was
seemed to be
was examined (Sir James
acquainted with the subject, and he (Mr.
thoroughly
heardbetter evidence in his life than was
that
h© sh.oounldof givethi
this
Hume) never i ttbsoe rbaet e s
..
gentleman.—(ilear, hear.) As to mans
given ht it was a mistake to suppose
given by that
ning the navy he thought
if it increased the carrying trade of the
the contrary,
that we should have , a much greater
country, it was clear
on in time of war than we
that this measure would have an injurious effect. On
number of seamen to rely up .
Majesty's Government would take the
hope that her . 'ty of stating what they intended to do
earliest opportunity
and other questions, he concluded
could have at the present time. After expressing a
with the lighthouse
by declaringthis measure his cordial
support.
Lord G. B . - ENTINCK could
.not thank the Govern-
mentmeasure; for the introduction an,,, lie must
say that in all his experience be had never heard
so great a change proposed
Iton grounds so
that the country was un-
tenable and so feebly
petitioning for the change; that
the people were groiging under any grievance . by re,.

. „
son of the present laws; That rates were too high, or
that freights were too scarce. The only reason assigned
for this measure was that Prussia, forsooth, was inter-
fering with our trade. Prussia was the country of
which the Right Hon. Baronet below him some
time since declared that she " was coming round "
—(A laugh)—that she was about to adopt our free-
trade system, and to adopt to the full all that the advo-
cates of that system had proposed. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had told them a story about a ship which
had gone to the Canary Islands for cochineal, and on
which freights amounting to 6d. a lb. had been charged.
Why, 6d. a lb. was about 561. a ton, and would any one
believe that at half such a rate as that plenty of suitable
ships could not have been found ready in British ports
to go to the Canary Islands for a freight? Why, even
" the marines," for whom the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman evidently intended that story, could scarcely be
expected to believe it.—(Laughter.) Then the Right
Honourable Gentleman had referred to the characters
of our mercantile marine, and had talked of their im-
moral and other vicious practices. He was not there to
say that among twenty thousand men brought up to an
arduous profession there might not be found many of
immoral and vicious character; but let them ask the in-
surance offices what they thought of the character of our
seamen, and they would tell them that they insured
British
ships cheaper than any others, because of the
brave conduct of our sailors. Then as to accidents at
sea: why all the returns before them proved that a far
larger proportion of American vessels were wrecked and
stranded than those of vessels belonging
to
ports in
England. But then the state of our
navy
was referred to, and Sir James Stirling's opinions were
quoted. Sir J. Stirling's practice, however, was op-
posed
commanded, the greater proportion of the men had never
been in the navy at all. The Right Hon. Gentleman
had not attempted to tell them howe itn uwoul d be proposed
to man the navy if the security w
done away with. It was remarkable now possessed waser
that noamhembx
of the Government had ventured yet to say h
pected to result from the operation of thesew
measures.tee
The lion. Gentleman opposite said it would be a mostsed
beneficial measure to the British trade. How increased
competition would benefit that trade he (Lord
Ge
Bentinck) could not see; but he could see
thaotrgiet
would be a measure for the benefit of Prussian
shipping, and for the great advantage of the com-
merce of the United States. If the Government
knew nothing of the advantage it would confer on
that country, at least the United States' Minister
knew it, for to-night he bad attended most carefully to
the debate. A return had been Cited of the ships em-
ployed and the revenue derived from the protected and
unprotected trade of Great Britain. How was that re-
turn made out? Our trade with China was included as
an unprotected trade? as if we wanted protection against
junks and bamboo bottoms. Our trade with Mexico
was also cited, though Mexico had no marine of her
own. If they had looked, however, at other branches
of our general trade, they would have found that the
theory of this return was scarcely borne out. Take the
British West India trade, which was one of the least
protected of all branches of our trade, and they would
find there constant decline and constant disappointment.
The returns, in fact, were calculated and meant to de -
ceive.—(Hear, hear.) And now let him ask what did
the Government expect would be the diminution of the
cost of freights under this new system? In_ a
newspaper article written by one of the members
of the Government, they were told that 2-I. 6d. a ton
was to be the saving derived by the consumers of
this country. The question, therefore, came to this.
Was the House, before they saw something more of the
working of this free-trade system, prepared to make a
sacrifice of at leust a million a year, at present paid to
British shipowners ?—(Hear, hear.) During a very
recent period her Majesty's Government and the Times
newspaper raised great alarms about the probable rate
of freights in bringing over corn; and the navigation-
laws had, in consequence, been suspended. But it had
now been proved that that measure was unnecessary;
and not seeing that any substantial reason had been
given for continuing to act upon its principle, he should
certainly give the present measure all the opposition
possible. He had only one word further to say, and that
related to the effect of this measure in our colonies. It
was his belief that our colonial trade would, if it passed,
be thrown entirely into the heeds of the Americans. He
predicted the most disastrous consequences to the em-
pire from this circumstance.
Mr. J. L. RICARDO could hardly reconcile some of
the statements made by the Noble Lord. What he had
said with regard to the great proportion in the loss of
American vessels over English ones, could be easily
accounted for. The time to which his Lordship referred
was one of great pressure, and when it was found ne-
cessary to send a large number of vessels upon the
service. With regard to what had been said by the
Noble Lord respecting the advantages which an open
trade would give to the United States, he begged
entirely to disagree. He did not anticipate that any
such effect would take place. It was a fact, that where-
as the United States' ships were the dearest built and
manned of any in the world, by the- arrangement
which this country now had with them they monopo-
lised two-thirds of the trade ; and that whereas Prussia,
having her ships built and manned more cheaply
than any other country, was obliged to give us
the whole trade between that country and this. The
Noble Lord had stated that the Government had brought
forward the measure on feeble grounds, and that the
merchants and manufacturers of the country had no
grievance to complain of. He (Mr. Ricardo) confessed
that when he considered that the Noble Lord himself
had begun by pointing out one grievance that he was
ready to give up, he (.4r. Ricardo) could not understand
how the Noble Lord could maintain the non existence
of grounds of complaint. The Noble Lord having
given up the point respecting the Lascars, how stood the
case? Last year there was a great scarcity of raw ma-
terial and manufactures, and idleness, and consequently
distress, ensued. At that very time there was great
commercial distress in this country; failures were taking
place on every side, and, amongst others, an old-esta-
blished house in Newcastle failed, as they stated in the
circuler issued to their creditors, entirely on account of
the state of the East India trade. Ho wished to point
out the fact to them, that while such was the state of
affairs in England—while the operatives in the
manufacturing districts were starving for want
of raw material—while merchants were becoming
bankrupt to support the monopoly of ship-
owners—those very Lascars were manning the vessels of
this country to support that very monopoly. He would
maintain that if those ships which were ready to bring
those commodities, which would have saved the opera-
tives of this country from starvation and her merchants
from bankruptcy, instead of being built of Indian wood
and manned by Indian men, had been built in the
United States and manned by Americans, the injustice
would have been equally great, the oppression equally
tyrannical. The evil consisted not in the trade which
was injured, but in the trade which was entirely stopped
by the restrictions of which he complained. He would
take the case of Australia. There were in this country
hundreds and thousands of people unemployed, and
anxious to go anywhere where they could find employ-
ment; there were in Australia thousands of acres un-
cultivated from want of people to •ultivate; but there
was in 'this country a navigation-law which would not
allow them to go there. It was stated to the Com-
mittee upon that subject that there was a great deal
of emigration taking place to Australia. The between
deck fare to that place by the Bremen ships was ra-
ther below 121., and the charge from this country
varied between 201. and 251.; and, moreover, it wa.
stated that if there was any preference to be given to the
vessels of either side in point of accommodation, that
the difference was in favour of the Bremen ships. After
such a contrast as he had shown, he asked
ere was
there the justification for preseving such a law? It was
a great grievance for a merchant to know that his
in
petitor in Germany was enabled to purchase cheaper
than himself; while, when he met him in the market
with the manufactured article, he was compelled
it on equal terms. But the magnitude of the
mischief
was even greater than it appeared; it was not found out
until some change of circumstances forced it upon public
attention. There was a beaten track, and whenever it
was tried to escape from it then the naviention-laws
were heard of. He would take the case of Java. As
soon as that House had opened the trade, some of our
merchants sent out their English manufactures; the
ships were obliged to go away and bring back other
cargoes, being compelled to trust to some other ship to
bring back their cargoes from the island. It happened
that there were several ships, but no British ships, at
the place, so that the cargo could not be brought
back ; and the merchants, finding the inconve-
nience thus entailed on them, abandoned the trade
altogether. Such was the case with copper ore. They
were obliged to have a particular ship to bring it, or
they could not bring it at all. A measure had been
passed in that House to let in copper ore free of duty.
Now he knew the case of a merchant who had a large
ainoant of that ore at Java which ho desired to bring
to this country, but in consequence of the law he found
that in order to do so he would be obliged to send it back
to Chili in the first place. He considered the restriction
to involve an unjustifiable sacrifice which, unless some
great and sufficient reason was shown for its continuance,
was altogether inexcusable. The object which they had
in view was expressed in the title of the Bill," An Act
for the encouragement of the commercial marine, with a
view to manning the Royal Navy." Surely after 200
years of encouragement the navy of this country must
be a model to the navies of other nations.--(Rear, bear.)
There was a document that had been laid on the table,
which was a report from official gentlemen
appointed by successive Administrations, of
particular political bias, and hating no object--
ix
eiew but to give information to the Foreign-office,
It was written from all parts of the world, without Y
any
possible means of communication on the part of theare-
spective gentlemen; but, nevertheless, there could not be
a more unanimous opinion than was contained in
document—that the two hundred years of encouragement
to the commercial marine had resulted in its infinite
superiority over other nations. The Noble Lord would
forgive him if he said that he would rather trust to the
gentlemen who had drawn up the report than to the
Noble Lord himself for a true opinion on the matter.
No man recognised more fully than he the importance of.
keeping up the defensive resources of the country, and if
the manner of the defensive navy depended on the
commercial marine, the sooner its constitution was
altered the betters for it leant on a broken reed. Al-
though these laws might be hallowed by time, yet they
ought to examine and investigate them, instead of taking
their beauties on trust, or they might be reduced to the
condition of the frogs in the table to whom Jupiter sent
a king, whom they regarded for some time with much
admiration on account of the splash he made in the
water, but whom on inspection at last they found to be
a mere log.—(Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY opposed the proposition of the Right
Honourable Gentleman. The Hon. Member who spoke
last had got up a case of abuse against merchant seamen
' in general, and ha had rested his case mainly on Is blue.

1341 i, in 'which, at all events, there was a considerable
-number of contradictory statements. He would no more
think of estimating the character of an entire people by
the language applied by the magistrates of a country to
the thieves brought before them, than he would of form.
ing his opinion of the character and habits of seamen
from evidence contained in a blue-book.--(Hear, hear.)
What, he would ask, was the rate of insurance at Lloyd's
for these ships, manned, according to the Honourable
Gentleman, with such dissolute crews and such ignorant
captains ? Why he found that merchants could get
their goods insured in these ships for' less than they
could in foreign ones.—(Hear, hear.)'' Those Gentlemia i
who cried down the merchant service would do ,s!ell to:
hear in mind the source from which the British navy'
was then manned.—(Hear, hear.) That navy beat'
everything it encountered, and it was manned principally
from the merchant service.—(Hear, hear.) And he had
a firm confidence that if war were to commence again, in
spite of the unjust imputations lavished on these men
by the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, these men
would again do their duty equally well to their Queen

and country. (Cheers.) - - -
Mr. MITCHELL cited some cases of the unfair work-
ing of the present law, and the injury done to the
trading interests by it. These special cases of injury,
however, were necessarily few in number, because these
laws had existed for more than 200 years, and few per-
sons indeed would think of bringing over goods to this
country in opposition to the course prescribed by them.
There was one statement made by the Hon. Member
for Oxford, which he could contradict—that goods on
foreign vessels were insured at a cheaper rate than if on
English bottoms. Now, his conviction was that Eng-
lish, on the whole, were better than foreign ships. He
was satisfied that the first class English vessels. sunh as
those engaged in the East India and China trade, might
be ensured at lower terms than any foreign ships. The
reason was obvious ; for not only were the ships better,'
but their captains were educated men, well qualified to
guard the interests of the owner, and to protect the pro-
perty of the merchants whose freights were entrusted to
their care. It happened that in other vessels the captains
were principally men brought from before the mast, and
who, though well able to manage a ship at sea in a
storm, were wholly incompetent to conduct business, or
to set an example to their crews when on shore. He should
be glad to see in the merchant service of this country
the system adopted which was practised in the nor-
thern states of Europe, where no man was admitted to
the command, or even as mate, on board a merchant
ship until he had passed an examination, not merely in
of
but in the knowledge of languages, the :rules
vi°slilteodf a
t)i exchanges, and in most of the branches of the educe-
the gentleman.
manifest
with by captains of merchant ships must be struck
differencenehwhose counting-house was
lish and those of the h se of the Eng-
lish those _
foreign mercantile service. He had
himself found that in 200 charter parties which
came
one to which thee course of a ear, there was scarcely
legible. From signature of en English captain was
and his propertythesejeopardised.
causes the shipowner was injured
the navigation lailvsopaanrddised. It had been said that if
abolished, there would the apprenticeship system were
Royal navy in
Case
of be no means of manning the
contended that the ittro:7var. Now he (Mr. Mitchell)
present system, for such difficulty would arise under the
that there was a surplu was the number fi o apprenticos
were driven into the s_ae of able-bodied seamen, who
that surplus be brought back
kriican service. How could
whole, if he could think thlslitall case of war e On two
sustain the slightest injury from threitish shipping would
posed in the navigation-laws, he should be
now pro-
adopting those changes ; but he was
be very chary in
good management would arise from the convinced that
tition which these changes would create
tp of comp ee-
' would be got rid of, and activity and dispatch bad habits
would be
inculcated.
Captain HARRIS remarked that he had heard
no-
thing in the course of this discussion to induce him to
withdraw the notice he had given before the Speaker left
the chair, of his intention to move, when the Chairman
reported progress, that the Committee should not sit
again until the report of the Lords' Committee was laid
before the House. He did not wish to interfere unne-
cessarily, but he must say a word or two in relation to
the question of the commercial marine being the nursery
for the service of the royal navy, and therefore for the
maintenance of the national defences. On this subj,ct
—though many naval officers had volunteered to give
their evidence—only one, Sir James Stirling, had been
examined before the Select Committee appointed at the
instance of the Hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. J. L.

Ricardo). lie should be glad to have an explanation of
that circumstance, because he took exception to many

parts of Sir James Stirling's evidence. That Gallant
Officer,for whom he entertained the highest respect, had

stated that of the seamen in the royal navy not more than
one-tenth had been brought up in the merchant ser-
vice. This was negatived by returt.s made by the
registrar of seamen, which he (Captain Harris) held in
his hand ; and which showed a totally different state of
facts, not only with regard to the ship Sir James Stir-
ling himself commanded at the time he gave his evi-
dence, but with reference to the crews of the Howe,

the Leander, and the Amphitrite, all of which had been
put into commission within the last year. If a state-
ment made by Sir J. Stirling were true, namely, that
out of 20,000 men in the royal navy, only 1,000 were
brought up in the commercial service, there would be
at once an end of the whole question, as far as the navi-
gation laws were concerned. The only observation he
had to make on that statement was, that it was utterly
incredible, and could not by possibility be well founded.
His own personal experience led him to form a directly
opposite conclusion, for recently, on a visit to Spithead,
he had found no smaller a proportion than two to one of
the seamen on board the Mona ch and other ships lying
there who had been brought up in the merchant service.
—(Hear.) He entreated lion. Members, before voting
on these resolutions, to wait for the report of the Lords'
Committee on the navigation laws. He hoped the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would adjourn the
further consideration of his resolution till that Commit-
tee had reported.
Mr. LA BOUCHERE said he could not consent to this
course, which would be altogether unworthy of this
House. If any Hon. Gentleman dissented from the reso-
lution, he could express that dissent in the usual way.
He now proposed to adjourn the further consideration of
the resolution till Monday next: A message had been
sent to the other House, requesting that when the evi-
dence
of their Committee was reported, it might be com-
municated to this House.
Mr. HUDSON wished a postponement for a fortnight,
on account of the great importance of the subject. Look-
ing at the business before the House, the Health of
Towns Bill and other measures, it was probable that this
would not oecasion greater delay. Only two petitions
had been as yet presented in favour of any change in the
navigation laws.

LABOUCHERE—I presented four myself.
Mr. HUDSON read from a return which stated
that up to the 10th of May only two such petitions
had been presented. The Right Honourable Gentle•
man had strongly abused the mercantile navy of the
country. This reminded him of the celebrated instrac-
..

tions to a learned counsel—" No case, but please
to abuse the plaintiff's attorney."—(Loud laughter.)
He knew, notwithstanding the Right Hon. Gentleman's
abuse, that the mercantile navy lived in the esteem and
affections of the people of this country.—(hear, hear.)
The Right lion. Gentleman had admitted that British-
built ships were the best, and that British sailors were
the best sailors ; but this was a question which did not
depend on the quality of our ships or the excellence
of our sailors. Ile had, therefore, read with great regret
the disparagement of our shipping by some of the con-
suls ; perhaps the reason might be that they were
largely interested in foreign shipping. He was confident
that the borough he represented, one of the, largest ports
in the kingdom, would strongly deprecate this measure.
The Right lion. Gentleman had said that ship-building
might be carried on without protection as well as other
manufactures, but he seemed to have forgotten that the
cotton and other manufactures were protected by a duty
on foreign products. When the free•trade measures were
proposed, two years ago, they were held out as the
greatest blessings that could be devised; he should beglad
to know what benefits had been derived from them. The
further free-trade proposal now made would entail utter
ruin on the shipping trade; and though it mil ht be true
that the best article was the cheapest in the long run,
it was not every one who could afford to buy the best
article; and the probability was that ship-building would
almost entirely leave this country. He earnestly hoped
that the Right Hon. Gentleman would defer this reso-
lution for at least a fortnight, which would scarcely be
sufficient time for the House to dispose of the ponderous
Health of Towns Bill.
Mr. LABOUCHERE had no wish to press the matter
unduly; but as this was only a resolution on which a
Bill was to be founded, he thought it not unreasonable
to ask the House to resume its consideration this day
week—anxious, as he was, that the Bill should become
law in the present session.—(llear, hear.) As to the
mercantile marine, he had passed no sweeping censure
upon it. Admitting the skill, courage, and able sea-
manship of the men, he had stated, on the authority of
unquestionable returns, that the shipmasters were defi-
cient in the requisite qualifications; and in making this
statement he thou4ht himself a much better friend to the
mercantile marine than env one who would withdraw
attention from the tact.—(Hear, hear.) In the China
and ludia, and other trades, he believed the qualifica-
tions of the masters were most unexceptionable; but in
other trades, their deficiency in skill, and the conse-
quent want of discipline, were producing deplorable
consequences, which could not too soon be brought under
the notice of the House.--(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUDSON said if the attacks made by thesbee
safe.
Dr. were listened to, no man's character
Dr. BO WRING moved that the Chairmwarali
re-
port progress, and ask leave to sit again.
ry incon-
be a ve_,
should
Lord INGESTRE said this would.
venient course. Let the House other House;
Committee of the h
wait for the reanit of
the inquiry before the
that would be much less derogatory' to
d. thie..ihrediliganviitgyattioann.
to hurry on a discussion of this kind'
Commonwealth, and
laws dated from the time of
of withoutbe gidvueen,daelnidbersahtoliumld.
ought not to be got rid
He demanded that time should
divide the House if the Government would not consent
to postpone the matter fora
Chairmanfortnight.do report progress
The motion that the
and ask leave to sit again was agreed to without a divi-
sion, and the House then resumed.
Captain HARRIS then moved that the debate be
postponed until that day fortnight.
The Marquis of Granby supported the amendment,
as did Mr. Alderman Thompson, Mr. \Yawn, and Mr. W.
Miles.
Mr. LABOUCHERE felt bound to oppose the amend-
ment, for he could nut consent to any course calculated
to prevent the measure from passing Into a law, if such
were the pleasure of the House, during the present
session.
Mr. HUDSON asked why, if the Government were
so earnest to pass the measure this session, they had not
introduced it at an earlier period ?
A