The Sun.
London, England, 1848-06-23 00:00:00

$O4
_,Se is not in a condition to decide until we are in pos-
-44112_51011 of the whole government plan. It occurs to me
Ot the subject started by the lion. Baronet the Mem-
'rfor Clare goes to the very gist of the whole question.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Noble Lord had
ried atlYmisunderstood him. What he (Lord J. Russell)
said was that Government, in their propositions,
,
be guided by the public interest alone, and the
Zple Lord pretended to understand that something like
(iergain had been entered into with Irish Members.—
eer, hear.) When a government plan had been once
04°Pounded to the House, it was not unusual to confer
the details with parties interested, but he repeated
Estfiti the ultimate decision of Government would be in-
-I,keeed only by considerations of the public interest.
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (who
4, Nat entered the House) said, the facts of the case
IF these yesterday heard that a deputation of Irish
d:tbers wished to see me respecting the differential
14t," on rum, and on other matters, respecting which I
4 previously had an interview with the Irish distillers,
an allowance on wastage when taking British
'b?;lts out of store. My Hon. Friend opposite (Sir L.
44.irien) end five other Irish Members waited on me
bad stated:their opinion, founded on representations they
bi;! received from the Irish distillers, that reducing the
serential duty on rum from ninepence to fourpence
ihetild be prejudicial to the Irish spirit trade. I heard
4,deputation with deference, stated that I would sub-
their views to Government, and that, as to the
snd portion of their request, that respecting the
ltige, I had for some time had it under con-
ertition, and would, if it could be safely
done concede it. It was certainly intimated to
Sit
that the votes of these gentlemen would depend
j,
„ to ) answer, and I said that I had prepared what
ialetnd best adapted for the public interests, and.that
'44 the votes, Hon. Members must take the course
lielY thought fit; that I could not make terms, and that
il,ad given them the only answer in my power.—(Hear,,l..) I came down to the House early' to answer the
44tion of which I had received notice from the Hon.
s e but as a railway debate was going oI returned
e
tier"'owning-street where I have been boily engaged
since.
44r. DISRAELI said that the Irish Members had not
Yet received the answer they required.—(Hear, hear.)
Tae Government had announced their plan, and should
tlitere to it, and not call upon the House to debate a
?,estion, a most important feature in which was con-
irsedly still under Cabinet consideration. He thought
blibut right that the House should be informed as to
at really was the government plan.
1414. C. BULLER complained that the Noble Lord the
tZttiber for Lynn was most reckless in his imputations
the Government. The Noble Lord had accused the
ileesernment of making a bargain with the Irish Mem-
hir,,i; In his (Mr. Bailer's) opinion there never
11`!-been made a more extraordinary bargain than that
201 the Noble Lord and the Hon. Member for Bucks
keened inclined to make with Members whose views
re *diametrically opposed to their own, merely for the
Blo3e of catching a few stray votes.—(Hear.) The
ifge had the authority of the Hon. Baronet the
ember for Clare as to the fact that no bargain had
-cen entered into.
441 r. BAILLIE said that one of the Irish Members
th informed him that the Chancellor of the Ex-
irequer bad told them his views were in concurrence
h h
t ems, and that he would use his influence with
heolleages to bring them round to a similar opinion.
silr• HERBERT, as one of the deputation which had
toted on the Government, denied that any bargain had
e entered into.
h
s44tr• NEWDEGATE said it appeared to him that
it thin thing very like a bargain had been going on, not-
1144tanding the virtuous indignation of the Hon. Mem-
for Liskea.rd.—(klear, hear.) The answers of the
Cerent Members of the Government reminded him of
e old proverb :
" When caps amongst a crowd are thrown,
4Each man picks up and fits his own."
e Mouse could hardly proceed with the debate in ig-
rttnee of the government plan.
h HORSMAN did not think the explanation which
been given at all satisfactory.--(Hear, hear.) He
°llght the House should be informed whether Govern-
-1:14 Meant to proceed with the plan as originally pro-
Led or not.—(Hear.)
r. FAGAN denied that any bargain had been pro-
bz4
d or acceded to.
4‘be CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
kat the point respecting which he had expressed his
thlieurrence with the deputation was the wastage, and
41",..4 was an Hon. Member behind him who could con-
Li his statement.
r• J. O'BBIEN confirmed the statement of the
Sir
of the Exchequer.
ttil'ir L. O'BRIEN said that the Right Hon. Gentleman
4j. left the House without information on the most im-
'7,l,lint point.
ei 4110 CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could
-ttie no further answer.
v,"4. URQUHART was strongly of opinion that a
ktall bargain had been going on between the Irish
ellbeikand the Right Hon. Baronet. It would appear
Istsibn Right Hon. Gentleman had been throwing dust
their eyes, and, therefore, ho (Mr. Urquhart) should
we his vote for the adjournment of the debate.
tZit INGLIS did not think the question which they
h: been discussing for two hours was so connected with
resolution as to require the expenditure of so long a
lit
e•--(Hear, bear.)
ktl., r• BERNAL differed entirely from his Hon. Friend,
Nm`considered that a nearer assimilation of the duties on
(441 bad a very close connexion with the question.—
lim.,tlr.) When they went on with the debate he wuuld
ti,;4,t4e Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the
tsriequer to the proposition he made. He would ab-
soite his Right Hon. Friend from any intention to de-
tOP, or from entering into anything like a bargain with
to? Irish Members, between whom, it was said, a kind of
lnetting was carried on.—(Hear.)
titt tr. J. STUART said the question they bad to con-
liz„er was, whether the remedy proposed by the Govern-
set for the relief of tha West Indies would effect its
t• Hew could they go on to debate that question
iii`nout knowing whether the Gavernment would adhere
16tbeir proposition ? The Government had a right to
,30me answer, as upon it the votes of some Members
I,llld depend.
4,7 r. LA BOUCFIERE was sorry to be obliged to inter-
ts„s'' in a discussion which had been already too long pro-
lseted.—(Hear, hear.) The Government, in listening
sp.t,ne representation of those who had objections to urge
Cost a measure proposed by the Government affectiug
htrade of the country, had but followed all former
e:edent, and his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of
pExchequer had only adopted the usual course in
4ing consideration to the statements of those whose
ti °rests were affected, and in saying that he would lay
b 0 the
made to him before the Cabinet, and
hii6.tbe parties the opinion of his colleagues as well as
tt°wn. If this was to be made a pretext for stopping
%ill, they never could come to a decision on measures
cliityeting the trade of the country. The question of the
en rum was an important part of the subject, but it
L 1 vain to say that they could not discuss and decide
teirpestion of the scale of the duties on sugar without
Got'g an absolute assurance, on the part of the
etliment, whether the duty on rum was to be 4d. or
slibj 40 1846 they received deputations likewise on the
spy eet of the sugar duties, but they did hot depart from
ileraportion of the plan proposed. Nothing was more
or unjust than to represent a Government as
Ittten!ting and uncertain because they gave a respectful
wee ‘lOll to the
acrepresentation of parties who would be
hy th c(11
Viz% GOULBURN said the question before the
n 9Use .
Was in many respects different from a pure
iser•
aft "on of trade. The question was how they could
th„ td relief to the suffering West Indies, and before
Came to a decision it was important to know
aether the-differential duty on rum was to be 4d. or
4---that is, whether an additional duty of fifty per
t' was to be allowed or not.—(Hear, hear.) With-
t being informed on that point, he did not think the
eplcaon.uld confidently pronounce an opinion on the
4, Sir H. WILLOUGHBY thought the Government
:InUld say whether they would adhere to their original
Proposition,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that his Right Hon. Friend
Labouebere) had given the proper reply to the
statements which had been made. But as the question
%tomd at present, the proposition of the Government, as
originally proposed, must be considered as the question
More the House.
The motion for the adjournment was then withdrawn.
Mr. GOULBURN wished to know from the Noble
Lord whether he had considered the suggestion of his
. Friend the Member for Liverpool with regard to
'4llthe introduction of a temporary Bill for the continuance
lithe existing sugar duties for a limited period. He
Da bought it scarcely possible, with every activity on the
tirt_of the House, that the Bill could receive the Royal
srent before the sth of July, when the duties would
.:urther lowered,
t 741 J. RUSSELL said that when the House came, to
/I,:eision on the motion of the Hon. Baronet (Sir J.
th;"ngton), he would then consider the proposition of
iiPoe. Member for Liverpool.
kit r.
, CARDWELL said that where a Bill was a money
ev,„ tut) House could only take one step every day, and
ti.' if the House came to a division on Friday night—
Oigilit *as not expected that the House would divide that
t"--the Bill would afterwards have to go through
.
t;.. other stages before it reached the House of Lords.
fer:e, Noble Lord waited for the issue of the debate be-
asiii the House before he took the first step in introducing
it j:krt Bill of the nature he stated, he would not have
"wis power to pass such a measure before the sth of
ord.! about an unprecedented violation of the standing
of the House.—(Hear.)
„s member of the Government having replied
44•
GT
*0(11,i
give
said he hoped the Goverment
1,11 . an answer, as the subject was important.
Ci(l,,ee CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
tponrnment could increase as well as diminish duties
The
a vote of that House.
3v adjourned debate was then resumed by
serer • MoFFATT, who said that the effect of the mea-
the eproposed by the Government would be to increase
keit, rt of sugar to the people of this country without
Plaetug any corresponding relief to the West Indian
/PoUldrs.
For the first year the cost to the country
third 00 250,000/ ; for the second, 500,0001.; for the
750.000/. ; for the fourth and two subsequent
Aso a., 1,000,0001; making for the six years that the Bill
440,,t0 be in operation a total cost to the country of
tqn4rtoool. With respect to the reduction of the diffe-
Neesal duty on rum, he thought it was a just and wise
ttater"„re, and would prove a boon to the West India
interest. without (doing permanent injury to the distilling
that eat in this country. He approved of the 500,000/.
labnuN43 to bo given to promote the immigration of
relief s, hut it would prove of little use unless the
11)4,44 intended by it was promptly afforded. The in-
°F Protection given by the proposition was more
nett
*4B supposed, because the duty on the sth of July
wOuld be 14s. for colonial sugar, and 18e, 6d. for

foreign. By the pr iposed duties it would be 13s.
for colonial, and 20s. for foreign, making an in
crease of protection fro n 33 to 54 per cent. That was a
material increase, end oie which was likely to have con-
siderable effect in dininishing the supply of foreign
sugar to this country. He would not object to this il
the measure was likely to be effectual in raising the
condition of the sugar-producing colonies. But ho did
not think it would be productive of benefit to them. In
his opinion there was no justification for the measure as
one of remedy for the West India distress. All the
witnesses who were examined before the Committee
concurred in stating that the great difficulty the planters
had to contend with was the want of labour. It was the
duty of the Government to supply labour to the colonies,
at any cost, particularly as it was the Government that
disabled them from having a sufficient supply. lie
thought that the colonists allowed themselves to be too
much frightened by the cheapness of slave labour.
Statements had been made that sugar could be produced
in Cuba at ss. 6d. a cwt. But the truth was, that the
cost of producing yellow sugar there was from 13s. to
15s. The latest accounts from Brazil showed that the
cost of yellow sugar there ranged from 14s. Id. to
18s. Bd., and that the planters lost money at these prices;
for the very last mail brought the intelligence of the
failure of one of the principal planters anti slave dealers
there.—(Hear, hear.) Great complaints had been made
with respect to the classification of sugars, which had
proved ruinous to some of those engaged in the East
India sugar trade, and the doing away with that classi-
fication would prove beneficial. Great complaints were
also made of the cost of the respective Governments of
the Mauritius and the West India colonies. In 1832
the cost of the Government in Demerara was only
56,0001.; hilt, in 1847. it was 225,0001.—(Hear, hear.)
He was sorry that the Government had given no indi-
cation of an intention to reduce the cost of government.
He was also sorry that that they did not propose to carry
on some large improvements which had been suggested.
For the reasons he had stated he could not support the
proposition of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) Before
he sat down he thought it right to bear his testimony to
the untiring exertions and the great zeal and activity
displayed by the Noble Lord who conducted the Com-
mittee. He only wished that the West India planters
would exhibit a little of the same zeal and activity.

Mr. GLADSTONE said that though he should feel it
his duty, in the course of the remarks he was about to
make, to express his dissent in important particulars
from the plan of the Government, and though he felt
unable to vote for their proposition, yet he hoped in so
doing that there was nothing inconsistent with the ad-
mission he must frankly make, not only that he be-
lieved the' Government were actuated by a sincere desire
to deal justly pith various interests, but that they had
to consider and treat a question of extraordinary diffi
culty.-.--(Hear, hear.) Few questions could come before
Parliament involving such a variety of complex conside-
rations, or one with regard to which the utmost patience,
the utmost care, and the utmost ability might find such
immense difficulties in producing anything like a satis-
factory solution. He felt himself under considerable
difficulty, in consequence of the forms of the House.
His general objection to the Government scheme was
that as a measure of relief it was utterly insufficient,
whilst as a measure of finance it was open to ob-
jections utterly insurmountable. But to these views
he could not, according to the forms, give adequate
expression. He could not vote a negative to the
Speaker leaving the chair, because that would convey
disinclination to reconsider a very difficult question;
nor could he vote for the resolutions, because that would
convey opinions he did not entertain. But these diffi-
culties did not prevent his fully explaining his views
upon the question. Considering it as it affected the
West India colonies, he was bound to say that he entirely
adhered to the principles on which he had always acted
on that question. He could not found his argument on
the mere consideration of protection. He thought they
were working out a great social problem in our West
India colonies. It was impossible to consider this ques
tion without considering the position of 90 per cent. at
least of the population of the islands. But he held also
that whites in the West Indies had a claim of the most
distinct nature on the humanity, equity, and justice of
the House.—(Hear, hear.) lie thought they had a
right to ask for public money as sufferers at
the hands of the Legislature. In the case of the
apprenticeship we had abolished a system which was as
much a part of the compensation to the West India
planters as the twenty millions of money voted to them.
Even in Jamaica no option could be said to have
been left to the planters as to whether they should or
should not abolish the apprenticeship two years before
the statutory period for its abolition. Then, as to immi-
gration, the West Indians now find the people of Eng-
land willing to vote money for that purpose. But the
West Indians justly observed that they had been agitate
ing this question for 12 years, and that every restraint
and restriction had been interposed. We at first prohi-
bited wholly the removal of coolies from the East Indies.
Then we fixed the period for which contracts might be
made with them at no more than one year. The Noble
Lord, to his honour, tried hard to restrain that sort of
philanthropic movement, but ho was beaten by the op-
position of Members who were now the ministers for
colonial affairs.—(Hear.) The West Indies now said,
you offer us what we asked too late; we have been ex-
hausted by the efforts of the intermediate period. There
could be no doubt that this was true, and on these
grounds, therefore, the West Indies had, in his
opinion, a good claim upon the state. He
now came to consider the mode in which her Majesty's
Government proposed to meet and satisfy flit
claim. As he said before, he did not think the amount
of relief by any means adequate to the necessity. Their
object, he thought, ought to be to induce the people of
this country to give a fair and full trial to the system of
free labour as carried out in our colonies. He did not
think it was well to adopt that principle without going
to the full length that justice and policy permitted.
Then came the question as to the form in which relief
should be given. Some Members thought it was de-
sirable that we should retrace our steps with regard
to the question of protection. He felt, however, that
there would be great difficulty and delicacy in im-
posing again a very high protective duty. He could
not but think that a great reaction with regard to
protective duty would diminish very much the care and
the caution with which estates were worked and labour
employed in the West Indies. He was not of opinion
that it would be wise to take a backward course with
regard to the scale. But, at the same time, he should
prefer to the Government plan a simple suspension
of the existing scale of duties. He thought it by no
means desirable that we should have minute subdivi-
sions and alterations of descending scales. The propo-
sition we wished to make was not the sort of proposition
given by the man who wished to teach his house to live
upon a bean a day. Our proposition should rather be
that of encouraging the importation of labour and ma-
chinery.—(Hear, hear.) He must also say that he
thought the reduction of the duty upon colonial sugar
from 14s. to 13-i. was most impolitic as a question of
finance. In consequence of that minute distinction the
Noble Lord, it was said, was about to prohibit once
again the use of sugar in breweries and distilleries.
This added very greatly to the impolicy of the mea•
sure. Then, again, he was not by any means satisfied
with the declaration of the Noble Lord respecting va-
grancy and squatting in the colonies. The Noble Lord
said they would be prepared to receive suggestions on
those points. It was rather the duty of the Under-
Secretary for the Colonies to prqpose such measures than
to sit in his office, as the Noble Lord had pictured him,
in order to " receive suggestions."—(Hear.) Then as to
the loan. He could not help regretting that an exclu-
sive direction had been given to the employment of the
loan. The mind of the West Indies was quite sufficiently
directed to the subject of immigration relatively with
other questions; and he thought the money might be as
usefully applied in improvements as in immigration. He
then came to a very important part of the subject, upon
which he must say that he did wish some intention had
been intimated on the part of the Government to give the
colonial legislature a greater discretion with regard to
their expenditure. In British Guiana, he believed, it
was absolutely declared that one-third the revenue was
swallowed up in the expenses of Government. The ex-
penses of colonies in which there were no local govern
ments were considerably less than in those which had
such an established authority. The sacrifice we were
going to make, whilst it would not save a fraction to the
colonial legislature, would, on the other hand, add, be-
yond all measure, to the burdens of this country.
Would there be any increase of consumption sufficient
to compensate for this by raising the revenue in
Great Britain? He believed not. He had observed
that whenever such reductions of duty were made a
very small increase of consumption followed. Next year
they would lose 240,0001., unless consumption increased ;
that was the immediate sacrifice. They were going to
exclude sugar from the breweries. It was said 12,000
tons were consumed in these establishments. That would
involve a loss of 150,0001. more. Then, in future years,
this lose might be expected to be still greater.—( Hear,
hear.) And under what circumstances was this great
sacrifice proposed ? If they looked at the finances of
the country everything was deficiency. Their financial
state was most serious, and it was growing more and
more so every day. They would not be doing their duty
to the country without looking that part of the question
in the face before the expiration of the session. They
must provide relief for the colonies, but they must pre.
viously see how that relief was financially to be afforded.
He knew how unpopular a proposal of relief to a class
interest was ; but when Members took him to task, as
they probably would do, for advising it, let them meet
the claim upon the ground of justice, upon which alone
he rested it. Let it not be said that when we set the
great example of emancipating our colonies, we took all
the honour to ourselves, and left all the cost and respon-
sibility to the West Indians.
Mr. J. WILSON said he had listened to the speech
littlemore
einterest,nri
oos
and much surprise. Nothing ancwouitldh nbne
of the Right Hon. Gentleman
• He
the vote' he proposed to give. e
the measure with
than to reconcile, if it were possib e, objections to
should be very glad if
he bad to meet no greater ob•
jections to the plan of the
Government than the objec-
tions of the
for voting for that 10s. duty
reason had he assigned
Right Hon. Gentleman. What single
which was the object of the amendment? The Right
Hon. Gentleman thought much of what were called
West Indian grievances; but what grievances had
%Vest Indian complained of a few years since that Thehad
e
'
not been wholly or partially removed?
prohibi-
tion of purchasing except in British markets was
removed—the rum duties had been reduced—the juice
of the cane was admitted—and the West Indians
were permitted to refine in their own islands. But
it was complained that immigration was checked.
Why, Honourable Gentlemen would not recollect the
facts. As far back as 1840 facilities were given for im-
migration, and almost every year those facilities were
increased. There were really no grievances, therefore,
which had not been removed, or which were not in
course of removal. But at the same time it was thought
that the distress, from whatever cause arising, was very
severe in the West Indies. Measures of relief were to j

be applied to it, and the problem they had to solve was.
in which way they could apply them most usefully to thi
colonists and least detrimentally to the mother-country.
In the course of tho debate reference had been made to
the state of our West India colonists, and an alarming
picture was drawn of their condition because the average
of the sugar produced in the two years 1846 7, in Ja-
maica, was 225. 61. per ev:t. But the year 1816 was a
year of great drought, and a year, consequently, when
the crop was much less than the average. He knew
cases of estates in Jamaica where sugar was made at
4s. 6d. per cwt., Bs. a cwt., 9s. a cwt., and 10s.
a cwt. ; and he believed in not over favourable.
years the cost of production had been not
above an average of 16s. a cwt. In 1846, however, there
were estates where the sugar cost more than 31. per cwt.,
and he verily believed that the drought of that year had
more to do than almost any other cause with the depres-
sion in the West Indies at the present time. Now, look-
ing at Demerara and Essequibo, he had a return in his
hand showing the numbers of estates sold in consequence
of bankruptcies, and it was curious that during the last
two years the number of such sales was much less than
during any of the six preceding. This was a fact of
some importance. Let him mention another cause for
the depression in the trade. In consequence of the ad•
mission of sugar to breweries and distilleries large im-
ports had been made of foreign sugar last year, and the
consequence was, a very considerable reduction in price
We imported in the first four months cf last year 79,000
boxes of sugar from Cuba, whilst in the same period of
this year we only imported 8,000 boxes, showing that
last year the foreign trade was unduly stimulated.—
(Hear, hear.) From 1834 to 1841 the state of the sugar
trade in the West Indies was very depressed ; but from
1841 to the present time their produce had been annually
on the increase. He believed there was indubit-
able proof of the progressive improvement of
the West Indies.—(Great laughter)—Gentlemen
might laugh, but he believed such to be the fact.
The re-establishment of a system of protection would be
most injurious to the colonies. Had not there been a
struggle going on in them for effecting a reduction of
wages, and were not Hon. Gentlemen aware of the par-
tial success that had attended those efforts? In the colo-
nies of Barbadoes, Antigua,_ and Guiana—(No)—the
reductions in wages amounted to from 25 to 50 per cent.,
and would it be wise, in the face of these efforts, to re-
duce the cost of cultivation to re-establish protective
duties, and thus to afford to the negro labourers a pre-
text for insisting upon their former high rates of wages?
Nothing could be more prejudicial to the West Indies
than to follow such a course. The great difficulty, as he
apprehended, in dealing with the colonies, was in stimu-
lating consumption, so as to keep pace with their con-
stantly increasing amount of production. The consump-
tion of sugar within the last three years had increased
from 207,000 tons to 290,000 tons, and this was one of
the direct and palpable consequences of the reduction
of the duty in 1845 and 1846. Suppose, instead of re-
ducing the duty, it had been increased, and the
production of sugar had gone on at tho same
rate as it bad done, what would have become of
the 70,000. surplus tons of West India sugar thus
throwli upon the English market ? Could they
have been sent into the foreign European market to
compete with Cuba and Brazilian sugars ? Then,
again, let him point out to the House the tact that there
were vast tracts of virgin soil in Trinidad and the West
India islands which had never been cultivated, and
which were capable of producing any quantity of sugar.
In Trinidad one-seventh only of the land was cultivated
as yet ; whereas, the sugar lands in Cuba and Brazil
were worn-out soil, and not able to compete with the
rich alluvial soil of the West Indies. The same was true
of the land in the East Indies. The possibility of re-
storing protection under these facts was out of the ques-
tion ; and if, by encouraging a system of emigration,
additional labour was thrown into the West Indies a
fresh stimulus was given to production, what, he might
ask, would be the condition of the planters generally, if
with an increased production of one half of the present
amount, there were to be no home consumption equal to
the additional quantity thus thrown upon the market ?
How, therefore, could the planters expect that the home
consumption would keep pace with the production unless
at prices which placed sugar within the reach of the
mass of the people ? and how could those prices be kept
within reasonable limits if increased protection was to
be granted on those sugars which were the principal
article of consumption in the home market ? There
was not a man who had sat on the West India
Committee, and who took a candid view of the whole
question, but what was persuaded that, take what mea-
sures they would for giving protection, the West and
East India colonies would annually produce more sugar
than the consumption of the kingdom could keep pace
with. Therefore, he said that there was no possible
safety for the British planters but in throwing them
open to their rivals in sugar-growing, and thus stimu-
lating their powers of production to the utmost. En-
tertaining these views, he was not able to support the
motion of the Honourable Baronet the Member fur
Droitwich, for the first effect which his proposition
would produce, would be to raise the price of
sugar, and thus to diminish the consumption of
that article. Moreover the proposition, if adopted,
would injure the revenue, either by diminish-
ing the duty received on West India sugars, or else
by greatly lessening the quantity consumed.
And on one or other of these grounds he, as
a member of the West India Committee, felt it his duty
to reject the motion. He would now proceed to say a
few words on the proposition of the Government, and
to endeavour to show how far it was more advantageous
than that of the Protectionist party. The first object
which Government sought to attain was to give such en-
couragement to the growth of sugar in the British pos.
sessions as would promote a superabundant supply for
home consumption. The mode of beat effecting this
important object was, in the opiniou of the Government,
by means of a gradually decreasing duty, and thereby
gradually stimulating consumption. Looking at the in-
crease, in this respeet, that had resulted from the re-
duction of the duty in 1845 and 1846. the Government
was, in his opinion, acting wisely in enabling the con-
sumer to look distinctly forward to the day when all
protection ceased in tuto. The Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Oxford University had stated that he
,hould have preferred suspending the duties for six
years from the present time to making a permanent and
gradual reduction in them. But he knew, as all who
heard him did, that the price of sugar was regulated
by the amount of the foreign duty, and not by the
colonial duty. The suspension of the duty for six
years would cause the consumption of that necessary to
remain stationary and stagnant for that space of time,
and thus there would be no means whatever left the Go-
vernment of providing for the consumption of the steadily
proceeding annual increase in the production of free la
bour colonies in the British dominions. Besides, there
was another objection to the Right Hon. Gentleman's
plan, which was, that at the end of the six years the
sudden reduction of the duty would paralyse the sugar
market, and throw the whole trade into confusion. The
propeisition of the government was therefore far prefer-
able to that of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Another of
his objections to the Government scheme was, that ac •
cording to his view of the Chancellor's statement the
Government was about to exclude sugars from being
consumed in breweries and distilleries as soon as the
plan proposed should come into operation. He was
glad to correct this misapprehension on the part of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, and to inform him that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer merely proposed to shut
sugar out from breweries as soon as the duty fell to
that degree at which a loss would be incurred by its
superseding malt, and thus reducing the receipts of the
revenue from that source. But this would not be as long
as the duty was at or above 12i.; therefore, three years
yet remained before sugar would be thrown out of use
in breweries. In distilleries it, would continue to be
used. With respect to the duties on colonial rum, the
planters had already been relieved to the amount of
50,0001. by the recent reduction, and taking into account
the former reduction of sd. per gallon, the whole amount
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former reductions, would swell the gratuities presented
thanth u s added Wes ahso In: amountsless
su
otuf
to the planters to between 300,000/. and 400,0001., taking
the whole export of rum from all the colonies into the
account. He had felt great surprise when he heard the
Hon. Baronet opposite make such statements as he had
done with respect to the cost of producing sugar in
Cuba, Bahia, and Porto Rico, because the returns from
consular authorities in other places, printed in the
report of the West India Committee, showed that the
figures of the Hon. Baronet were not correct. The
consul-general for Havana, Mr. Crawford, states
that the cost of producing sugar there, including export
duties, was 17s. 6d. per cwt., and this without freight
and charges, or the cost of replacing negroes. In Bahia,
Mr. Consul Porter states the cost of production to be
17s. 6d., with the same limitations; and at Porto
Rico, Mr. Consul Lindegren gives the cost of produc-
tion as 12s. 6d, per cwt., without adding anything for
replacing slaves, interest of capital, and other charges.
The average cost of producing sugars in these three
slave colonies, therefore, instead of being 6s. 1O d., as
stated by the Hon. Baronet, was in reality 155. 10d.,
and if estimated without adding the export duties, which
might at any time be repealed, the minimum cost of pro-
duction in the three slave colonies was 14s. Bd. per cwt.,
and that was to be looked at as extending over all the
three qualities of sugar produced in those colonies. He
regretted that he had so inadequately expressed his
opinions. There were many topics whieh he had un-
avoidably omitted, but at that late hour be could not
think of longer detaining the House.—(Hear, hear.)
He should only say further, that he felt firmly con-
vinced that there could be no more effectual way of en-
couraging slavery than to restore the protection of co •
lonial sugar.
On the motion of Mr. W. MILES the debate was
adjourned to to-morrow (this day).
BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

Mr. WAWN, who had risen several times while Mr.
Wilson was addressing the House, and who appeared
much excited, complained, amid,loud cries of " Question,
that one of the Hon. Members for Berwick had just ad-
dressed the most offensive language to him, and had, in
fact, threatened to strike him within the walls of the
House.--(Laughter, and cries of " Qestion.") He
thought it his duty to call the attention of the House to
the matter. He was quite ready to meet any complaint
of the Hon. Member out of the House, but in the
House he thought himself entitled to the protection of
the Chair.

No notice being taken of the Hon. Member's obser-
vations he immediately left the House.
AMENDMENT OF THE POOR-LAW.

Mr. C. BULLER moved for leave to bring in the fol-
lowing Bills:—A Bill to alter the provisions relating to
the charges for the relief of the poor in unions, and the
mode of payment thereof, and to provide for the relief
of the poor in extra-parochial places ; a Bill to make
provisions for the payment of parish debts, the audit of
parochial and.union accounts, and the allowance of cer-
tainshateA therein ; a Bill to amend the law for the
forthation of districts for the education of infant poor ;
and a Bill t 9 authorise the payment of superannuatiqa

allowances to officers engaged in the administration of
the laws for the relief of the poor. lie promised the
House that if permitted to bring in the Bills they should
have ample time to consider them before he asked for
another stage.
After a few words from Mr. HENLEY leave was
given.