The Sun.
London, England, 1848-05-27 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, _ SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 27, 1(118.

, Mr. HUME—In what way to men who ha I received
en univeraay educaione
Captain BERKELEY—As superior officer,.
Mr. ELLIOI' reminded the lion. Member for Mon-
trose that the midshipmen and mates were not of the
lowest class, but generally the sons of high and noble
families; and therefore it surely could be no disgrace to
any assistant-surgeon to mix in such company.
Mr. HUME could not forget that they were boys, and
that the assistant-surgeons were men whose studies were
interfered with.
Mr. COBDEN said he wished to take this opportu-
nity of referring to a subject which, though in some
degree personal to himself, he should not revert to but
that he felt it affected the efficiency of the service and
the economy of the public expenditure. On a former
occasion reference had been made to a statement he
(Mr. Cobden) had uttered in Manchester on the subject
of a line-of-battle ship lying in the harbour of Malta.
When he made that statement he was speaking in the
midst of personal friends, whom he told that he had seen
a step lying at Malta from November to March; that he
had then gone to Egypt, and 11 his return had found
the same ship lying there still. An attempt had been
made to make it appear that, instead of speaking of a
matter which had occurred ten or eleven years ago, he
had referred es the state of things last year; but he
must remind the Committee that he made the statement
to persons who knew that he had not been to Egypt
last year, and could therefore have at once known the
statement was false. Though a sort of quarter deck
contradiction bad been given in that House to his state-
ment at Manchester, the feet that ships lay for a long
time in the harbour of Malta remained unanswered.
Since then a perfect stranger had furnished him
with information that the logs of ships were kept
at Somerset House, and that by moving for them
he could obtain a return of the logs of the ships in
question. He had moved for and obtained the return of
the logs of the date be had mentioned, namely, 1837,
when tie was in Malta. From the returns, he found that,
in 1837, the time of which he had spoken. the Princess
feltLa from the Bth of No-
-13, at Malta
that the Queen, 110 guns,
May, 1838, a period of up-
wardsvCehmabr leovot, els,Bi
x3107m40
,ogonu
ttnhhs
se,
2a layontdh aao
f
lay there from the 7th of October, 1842, to the 15th of
September, 1844, a period of eleven months and eight
days, without ever raising her anchor. He was assured
by a friend who had as ward a midshipman on board
that ship, that the expense and demoralisation arising
from the lengthened stay in harbour was absolutely
ruinous, and that when the ship went out a vast number
of the crew were so sea-sick as to be unable to perform
the ship's service.—(Laughter.) It would bo remem-
bered that the Honourable and Gallant Admiral
below him (Admiral :Dundas) had on a former occa-
sion read an extract of a letter from Sir William
Parker, the present Commander of the Mediterranean
squadron, expressing his astonishment at the statetnent
merit he (Mr. Cobden) had made, and raising an im-
pression that he had stated matters which could not be
borne out by facts. Now, these returns further showed
that the Hibernia was lying in Malta harbour from Aug. 26, 1845, to March 28, 1846, being seven months and
two days, without ever raising an anchor. He brought
these facts forward on public grounds. What he had
stated at Manchester was, that he bad seen a ship lying
at Malta with 800 or 900 men on board for six months,
producing thereby great demoralisation, and a vast ex-
pense in every way. As to demoralisation, they all
knew what a region in that respect Malta was, and when
they were told that a line-of-battle ship had on board
from 30 to 40 junior officers, such as midshipmen and
mates, who were the sons of high and noble families, he
put it to the Committee whether anything could be
worse than for such a party to remain ten or eleven
months together in such a harbour as that of Malta.
Under all these circumstances he thought it would be
satisfactory if the Hon. and Gallant Admiral (Dundas)
should state to the House whether he thought such a
practice was consistent with the efficiency of the service,
or the proper economy of the public expenditure.
Admiral DUNDAS stated that since the present
board had been in office ships had not been allowed to
remain in harbour, and it was contrary to the rules of the
service that they should be so. It would have been well
if the Hon. Member had given the Committee the in-
formation of what the Queen Charlotte had done after
remaining the winter in harbour, for then the Com-
mittee would have learned that she went to Acre, and led
in all the operations there, and had never' been one
month at Malta since. On a former eceasion, he
(Admiral Dundas) had read the communication received
trom the American Consul, and did not retract a word
from his former observations, in reference to the state-
ment that the Hon. Member had seen a ship lying at
Malta with 1,000 men on board.
Mr. COBDEN said his informant might have misled
him as to the precise number of mete but this he could
state that the Queen Charlotte, of 110 guns, had on
board 1,119 persons, of whom 225 were supernumeraries,
leaving about 900 as the complement of men on
board. But the question was whether the broad
facts he had stated were or were not deserving
this attention of the Committee and the Government,
and he hoped he might be allowed to say in all good
humour that the Hon. and Gallant Admiral had more
than once contradicted him in a manner of which any
independent Member would have a right to complain.
lie bad been contradicted when he stated that there was
no ship of war at Canton at the time of the recent
murder of the English subjects in China. Since that
contradiction he had received a letter from China re-
iterating the fact. That letter he bad shown to the
Hon. and Gallant Admiral, who merely remarked,-
4. Well all I caw say is, if they were not there they
ought to have been there."—(Laughter.) However well
this manner might do on a quarter-leek, it was not the
mode in which business ought to be transacted on the
floor of that House; and he trusted the Hon. and Gal-
lant Admiral would her the future be accurate as to his
own infermation before he contradicted any lion. Mem-
ber.— (Hear, hear.)
Admiral DUNDAS said that since the statement
with respect to there being no ships at Canton at the
time mentioned, he had inquired at the Admiralty, and
found there were orders that no ship of war had any
right there.
Capt. BERKELEY thought the Hon. Member for the
West Hiding ought to have obtained, in addition to those
he bad teed, returns of the services which the ships
named had performed while on the Mediterraneen
station. If so, he would have found that it was neces-
sary, as the admiral was employed in a somewhat diplo-
matic capacity—it was necessary his ship should remain
at Malts. It would have been found also, that by thy
mediation of British naval commanders (Captain Cod-
rington, for instance,) peace had been maintained be-
tween belligerent parties iu many of the ports where
disputes had arisen.
Mr. HUME rejoiced that the Hon. Member near him
(Mr. Cobden) had thus triumphed over the attempt to
run him down by the impression created that there had
been no truth in his statement. lie had, however, shown
that it was accurate, not merely in respect to one but to
three ships of war which had been on the Malta station.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said he had read the speech
made by the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Cobden) on
the occasion which had giveterise to the subsequent in-
quiry and discussions. In that speech he had impugned
the character of the British navy, describing the officers
as skulking from duty. He had spoken of the Duke of
Welliegtue as a drivelling old man, and had spoken of
both services in a manner which was disgraceful not only
to a Member of that House, but to any Englisman.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh.") Tee Hon. Member had, in the
speech referred to, used language which was wholly
unbecoming his position.
The CH.ANCELLOIt of the EXCHEQUER inter-
posed, and expressed a hope that his Hun. Friend (Mr.
Cobden) would not take sty notice of the warm ex-
pressions used. It was quite clear that the statements
made by his Hon. Friend were perfectly true, and it
really would be a waste of time further to discuss the
matter.
Mr. BOLLING conceived that the Hon. Member for
the West Riding had unjustly abused the navy. If the
ships lay in harbour he abused the admirals, and said
they were afraid to go to sea ; and if they were active,
abused.. What would he have them
equallysaid it was desirable for the House to
theyto
iAdiov w.?
rid itself of the idea that the services of the armyeand
not to come under as rigorous discussion,
navy were
and undergo, as searching an investigation, as they
other departments, Bearing in mind that by far the
were accustomed to extend—he feared too little—to
largest portion of the available revenue of the country
ment, that was quite a sufficient reason why they, the
was expended in the maintenance of the military depart'
of the public purse, should have under. their
should see that they were kept in the greatest possible
own eye what was doing in those departments, and
efficiency at the smallest possible expense.—(Hear,
hear.) The Hon. Member for the West Riding had not
the services of these dad not
disrespectfully pments; he had merely pointed out abuses, and had_r ac-
which the Admiralty had laid
as
was proved bythe returns
might be true that the blood of
on the table. Though it
Hon. Members should
Douglas could protect
tually understated the grievances he complained o ,
is
opsed to do so.
of the country; and he wasp
egreat complaint against
Mr. G. ROBINSON said, th ,
Biding had been that he
the Hon. Member for the `Vest recollect that they were there to protect the tax-payers
—Be reCee (Hear.)
f the Americans were conti-
There never was a term
down.
nually running up and
British navy, whichhad never been
as
so misapplied to the
had
rselpareeks.? tew
while
lteh e t Bhorsiteisoh ships in the Mediterranean
in ao efficient a state.
Mtoemt
nbee r for
country t h
tor the terms in which hee
WCesatputaiidni Aollu
bavehad °ken of the navy and
the Duke of Wellington, whie • h had excited a feeling of
the country. It would have
been better to do so than to move for
the returns as to a
indignation throughout
gßhltSt
ot bought
apologisedthe II on.
Hon. Gentleman, in
addressing his constituents, spoke of
what he saw al
matter of fact which was not in questionrn;
nfeonr he (Capt.
t
Harrie) admitted there had been too
work.—(Hear, bear.) When the
Malta, " in the winter," it was naturally supposed that
he spoke of the last winter.
on.
Mr. W. BROWN said the speech
ewmasbeaddressed
Ntvo an
Riding
audience who knew that the Ht
Riding had nut been at Egypt or Malta for the last ten
years.
from Mr. HOME, was agreed tyCh
was agreed to.
ds defraying the ex-
pense The next vote was 500,0001. tower.
200,000 L fur the half-pay ' which, after an inquiry
in Aexftpelrananfa,wtonredsvofrteom Mr. BuasE and Capt. HARRIS,
of naval stores and repairs,
the royal marines.
votes on
Mr. HUME said it was most important that this item,
0, officers of the navy and
800 0001. should be
which was in all 700,0001. or ,
reduced.
The vote was agreed to.
Mr. PARKERMISCELLANEOUS •
in the miscellaneous expenditure,
account of the items
th
then proposed
n
which were all necessary for the public service. The
posedEStoTltMakAe TsEomSe.

totals of the items on which he now proposed to take
votes on account would not io3 greater than they had
been last year. The following votes were then pro-
posed, and agreed to without discussion :-
50.0004, for repairs,„&c., of public buildings; for furni-
ture, &e., for -various public departments ; for certain
charges for lighting and watching, for rates and taxes ;
also, for the maintenance and repairs of royal palaces
and works in the royal gardens.
25 0001., for works at the new Houses of Parliament.
10,000/, for works required for enlarging and im-
proving Buckingham Palace.
15,0001., salaries and expenses in the department of
her Majesty's Treasury.
8,0004, salaries and expenses of the office of Secretary
of State for the Home Department.

15,000/., salaries and expenses in the department of
Secretary fur Foreign Affairs, also Queen's messengers.
10,0001., salaries and expenses in the department of
the Secretary of State for the Colonies.
10,0001., salaries awl expenses in the department of
the Privy Council, and the Committee of Privy Council
for Trade.

_
500/. towards the salary of the Lord Privy Seal.
Mr. 111331 E said he thought it a fit opp.rtunity to
take an objection to that vote, as the Lord Privy Seal
was absent from the country; but afterwards said he
would raise the objection on a future vote.
10,0001., charge in the office of the department of
Comptroller-General of the Exchequer, and Paymaster
of Civil Services.

1,000/., portion of the expenses of the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners for England.
4,0001., salaries and expenses in the department of
Comptroller• General of the Exchequer, and Paymaster
of Civil Services.

6.0001., salaries and expenses connected with the public
records; also compensations to keepers of records and
others whose offices have been abolished .

20,0001., expenditure of the several branches of the
Mint.

2,0001., charge of office of Paymaster of Civil Services
in Ireland.

14,0001., salaries and expenses of the Board of Public
Works in Ireland.

50,0001., expenses of stationery, printing, and binding,
for tho several departments of Government in England,
Scotland, Ireland, and the colonies.

8,00C1., charge alter Majesty's foreign and other secret
services.

5,0001., expenses connected with the prosecution of
offenders against the laws relating to the coin.
Mr. HUME complained of the extravagance of this
item (the total of the estimate being 9,6001.); and said
he should move for returns to show how it was ex-
pended.
10,0001., expanses ircurred by the sheriffs; deficiency
in fees in the office of Queen's Remembrancer; and cer-
tain expenses of the Queen's Prison.

7,0001., expenses of the prison for juvenile offenders
at Parkhurst.

Mr. HUME asked what was done with these juvenile
offenders after therleft Parkhurst? tie conceived that,
unless some provision was made tor them after they came
out, the institution itself would be of very little use.
Mr. V. SMITH said that many of them were sent to
Australia, where they were in great request as labourers,
on account of their moral discipline and excellent phy-
sical condition.

Sir J. GRAHAM was bound to say that he believed
there was no more really meritorious service amongst
the many distinguished services of the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government than the foundation of th.
prison at Parkhurst.—(Hear, hear.) While he (Sir J.
Graham) was in office, a number of these boys had be en
sent to Australia, where he hoped they would be able to
earn an honest livelihood by their good conduct.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had not had sufficient
experience in connexion with the institution to entitle
him to answer the question of the Hon. Member for
Montrose; but he hoped that, after what had been said,
the Hon. Gentleman would be induced to think that the
institution was a useful one. In founding this institu-
tion he had gone upon the principle that the reformation
of old offenders was not much to be depended on; the
penitence of men of twenty-five to thirty years of age
often turned out to be a studied sy stem of hypocrisy;
and the best behaved convicts when they left England
frequently turned out the worst when they relapsed.
But in boys of ten or twelve years of age, their bad
principles might be eradicated.—(Hear, hear.) Such
was the principle on which the prison had been founded;
and he considered it one which the pultlic ought to
uphold.
Mr. HUME said he doubted the success of the insti-
tution at first, knowing how apt thieves were to assume
a hypocritical penitence. Still he had no objection to
their being sent out to the colonies, where a fair field
would be open to their industry. But it was objection-
able for these parties to be transported at the public
expense when honest men could not be assisted to
emigrate.
Mr. V. SMITH said these convicts were only accept-
able in the colonies on account of the discipline to which
they had been subjected at Parkhurst. It was a doubtful
and fearful question how far this distinction ought to be
made between honest and vicious young men in favour
of the latter; but on the question of economy he thought
some reduction might he made in the vote for Parkhurst,
by calling on the parents and parishes of the children,
where they could be found, to defray a portion of the
cost. The expense might be reduced in another way ;
by requiring the colonists, who were greatly in want of
labourers, to defray a portion of the cost of their con-
veyance out.

Mr. A. HENRY said there were 600 prisoners at.
Parkhurst, and the annual expense was 13,0001., of
which 5,0001. went in establishment charges.—(Hear.)
He thought it little better than a means of creating pa-
trcruge and giving salaries.

Sir J. GRAHAM thought that the Hon. Geatli-faan
spoke from ar. imperfect acquaintance with the matter.
Considering all the circumstances, the arrangement was
a most economical one. Parkhurst was not confined to
any particular district of the country, but received all
children tinder fourteen years of age convicted of felony
in any part of Great Britain. By this means the most
perfect discipline was attained, and the object could not
be secured by and• other institution at so small a cost.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had been very anxious for
the reform of juvenile offenders, and had framed the in-
stitution with that view, not out of any desire to in
crease the Government patronage. In selecting the
governor his choice had been entirely guided by the fi:-
ness of Captain Woolford tor the office. The other de-
partments had been filled up under the recommendation
of the inspectors of prisons, some of them by indivi-
duals whom he (Lord J. Russell) had never seen till he
met them at Parkhurst.—(Rear.) _ _

Mr. HENRY repeated the expense of the establish-
ment was quite out of proportion to the good it was cal-
culated to effect.

The vote was then agreed to, as were the following:—
, 8,000/.. for the Model Prison at Pentonville.
16 000/., expenses of the prison at Millbank.
4,000/.. expenses of the general prison at Perth.
30,0001., for law expenses in Scotland.
35,0001., for the expenses of et iminal prosecutions, and
other law charges in Ireland.
10,0001., expenses of the metropolitan police of Dubin.
30,0004, to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to issue
money fir• the advacc,mient of education in Ireland.
3.0001, for the School of Design, and for aiding pro-
vincial schools.

30,000 k, towards the charge for consular establish-
ments abroad.

10,000/., towards payment of the extraordinary dis-
bursements of her Alsjestx's missions abroad.

10,0001. for superannuation allowances, and compensa-
don to persons formerly etnployed in the public berme.
9,000/., expenses of Non-conforming, Seceding, and
Protestant I)issentim4 ministers in Ireland.

Mr. HUME hoped. this vote would be postponed till
certain returns were published, which might assist the
House in making a fair distribution of the money thus
granted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
had been the practice for many years to vote 36,0001. for
this purpose of which only one-fourth was now asked for.
After a few words from Mr. BRIGHT, the vote was
agreed to.
100,000/. for the Commissariat department, 10,0001. for
half-pay pensions and allowances in the Commissariat
fepartment.
The House then resumed, the Chairman reported
progress, and obtained leave to sit again.
Mr. BRIGHT said that when the vote for ecclesiastical
purposes in the colonies came before the House, he would
make a motion on the subject. If they were to pay for
the religion of the colonists, they might as well pay for
their bread and butter.—(Laughter.)
QUALIFICATION AND REGISTRATION OF
ELECTORS (IRELAND) BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this Bill,
Captain JONES said he did not mean to object to
the second reading, but he saw no reason for hurrying
it on till certain returns which had been moved for, and
which would throw light on the subject, had been laid
on the table.

Cul. CONOLLY said the only objection he enter-
tained to the Bill was as to the amount of qualification.
Hr. FIUME thought the Government had taken a
step in the right direction by introducing the Bill. His
only regret was that it did not go far enough.
Sir R. FERGUSON thought that the poor-law valu-
ation should bo also introduced in boroughs. He hoped
the Government would likewise consider the subject of
joint occupation in counties.

Sir J. YOUNG said that it was most important that
the qualification should be placed on a certain basis. Its
amount might be safely discussed in Committee. The
shortening of the duration of the elections would be a
4,reat boon to Ireland.

Mr. H. A. HERBERT said the subject of valuation
was so important that it could not be too strongly pressed
upon the consideration of the Government. The House
could not be aware of the extreme inequalities which ex-
isted on this point in the south of Ireland. Ho would
give the House ono extraordinary instance of this in the
district with which he was more particularly acquainted.
There was a kind of scramble between two unions for a
particular parish which bad but few paupers, and the
hoards of guardians of each union gave orders to their
respective valuators to value the district. It was valued
by one at 2,5001., and by the other at 1,8001., making a
difference in a small district of 7001.—(Bear, hear.)
Great dissatisfaction existed in consequence of the want
of uniformity of valuation. That dissatisfaction was
already considerable where it affected pecuniary interests,
and ho had no doubt it would be greatly increased when
it extended to political privileges. He hoped the Go-
vernment would give them some assurance that this
important subject would be taken into their conside-
ration.

Sir D. NORREYS thought the Bill should he made
applicable to boroughs. The most disgraceful scenes
took place in the registration courts from the want of
certainty with respect to the valuation. He thought
that this uncertainty should be removed.
Mr. FREI-YEN thought that a franchise, founded on
an 8/. valuation under the poor-law, was too low, and