The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 0, 1846,

include murders or hom'cides—for this reason, that the Hon.
and Learned Member for Clonmel ( Mr. Pigot) moved for a
return of murders and homicides during a correepinding
period, and which was presented to the House on Monday last,
and he only regretted that it was not in his hands at that mo-
went. He would now proceed to make a comparison between
the numbsr of offences committed in Ireland during the first
five months of last year and the corresponding ponied of the
present year; and he must admit, at the same time, that in
consequence of these papers not having reached his hands
before the previous day, he was not able to make so accurate
and precise a comparison as he could have wished, but if Hon.
Gentlemen would have the kindness to read them over care-
fully, he was quite sure that, with the exception of Leitrim,
the counties which had been noted for crime had not at all im-
proved with regard to their amount of crime within the last
five months.—( Hear, hear ) In the county of Leitrim he did
rejoice to say 'and he congratulated the Noble Lord the Mem •
ber for that county on this fact) that there had been a con-
siderable diminution of crime during the last five months.--
( Hear, hear.) But he believed that the Noble Lord would
be able, much better than he could do, to es ablish to the
House good grounds with regard to the diminution of crime in
that particular county, and which in his ( Lord Lincoln's) opi-
nion would tend very considerably to strengthen the arguments in
favour of this Bill rather than diminish them. And now with
regard to the comparison of crime in these five counties, as
compared with the whole of Ireland during the past five
months. During that period there had been, in the whole of
Ireland, of the class of crimes to which he had alluded, 2,098;
but in the five counties in question 1,188 of those crimes had
been perpetrated, being considerably more than one-half of
the crimes committed in the w'sole of Ireland. Now, without
going into detail, because he had not time to do so, he would
make a brief comparison in the gross between the number of
crimes committed in the different counties in Ireland, and
from the statement he thought the House would see that there
had, in fact been no diminution of crime in Ireland during the
last five months, with the exception of the county of Leitrim.
In Clare there had been 171 cases of crime. In Leitrim 1:38.
In Limerick (and he begged to observe, that with regard to Li
merick, the amount was very considerable in proportion to its
population), 210 cases. In Roscommon, he regretted to say,
there had been no diminution, but a very great increase, 378.
In Tipperary, 286 ; making, as he before said, 1,188 cases for
the five counties in question, whilst in the whole of Ireland
there had only been 2,o9B.—(Hear, hear.) Now, as
he had this return in his hand, and as he remarked to
the House in a former part of his statement that these offences
were of a local nature, he would read a ftces particulars as to
the population of the counties now nude:: comparison. He had
already stated that in the count of Roscommon, during the
last five months, there had be:en 383 offences, and the popula-
tion of that county was 253,000. He was glad to see the
Hon. Member for Aerry now in his place on the opposite
benches. Kerry contained a much larger population than
Roscommon, the number of its people amounting to 293,000 ;
but in the county of Kerry, during the same period, there had
been, only sixteen offences, whilst in Roscommon there were
383.—( Hear. hear.) He would now refer the House to the
number of offences committed in the county of Limerick ; the
population of tlat county amounted only to 281.000, and yet
the number of crimes was 210. Now in the county of Lei-
trim, as he before stated, the number of crimes was 138, whilst
the population of that county was 155,000 In the adjoining
county of Fermanagh, the population of which was 166,000,
the number of offences was only 14. In the county of Antrim,
with :160,000 inhabitants, the offences were only 17. In the
county of Dublin, exclusive of the city of Dublin, with a po-
pulation of 146,000, the amount of offences was only four.
Now he thought that these facts would clearly establish the
grounds which he ma ntained for the necessity of passing some
coercive measure to affect the five counties in Ireland where
crime was so rife. He admitted, with the Hon. Baronet who
moved the amendment, that it was the duty of any Govern-
ment, if introducing a measure of this nature, to prove three
things ; and in the first place they were bound to prove that an
evil existed which ought to be met by some means or other.
Now, he did think that if they would look to the proofs which
had been laid before the House on the former debates on this
country, that the case was made out--clearly proving the
existence of such an evil. He also thought that the pools he
had laid before the House that evening showed that there had
been not any diminution in crime within the last five months,
and he thought he might assume that the Hon. Baronet who
moved this amendment could not complain that a sufficient
ease had not been made out for enactments of this kind. The
Hon. Baronet stated that it was the duty of the Government
to prove that they had attempted to meet these offences by the
ordinary law, and that they had failed in so doing. He alluded
to the case of Westmeath, to show that had special
commissions been issued, the existing state of things
might have been prevented. In referring to that
case, the Honourable Baronet had forgotten to tell
the House the circumstances under which that special commis-
sion was issued. Now, the circumstances which led to the
issuing of that special commission in the county of Westmeath,
were these, that there had previously been not only a consider-
able accumulation of officers ; but what was, of course, of
greater importance as regarded the commission, a very consider-
able accumulation of prisoners within the gaol. Under those
circumstances he believed that the Lord-Lieutenant was applied
to by certain magistrates and gentry to issue a special com-
mission. The Government hesitated for some time as to the
propriety of so doing. The Government doubted whether
sufficient ground existed for the issuing of the commission, and
they employed proper persons to ascertain whether such grounds
did exist ; and the result was, that the commission was issued.
But the Hon. Baronet asked why a special commission was not
issued for the five counties. The answer was obvious, that al-
though the state of crime was so rife, and although the number
of outrages was so great, yet the instances of detection were so
few, the committals were so rare, that there would be no
justification for the issue of a commission ou those counties, for
it would in reality end in nothing. But let 'him
(the Earl of Lincoln) remind the House--when they were
now taxed with not issuing special commissions—when they
were now charged by the Hon. Baronet the Member for
Drogheda, and also by the Hon. and Learned Member for
Cork, with the negligence of duty in consequence of their not
issuing special commissions—let him remind the House that
those were not the views that had been entertained generally
by Hon. Gentlemen opposite. Unless he very greatly mis-
took, Lord Althorp in introducing the Bill of 1833, dwelt
particularly upon the total inadequacy of special commissions
to meet crimes of the kind in question.—(Hear, hear.)
That Noble Lord stated reasons which he (the Earl of Lin-
coln) thought were sound and good. Let him remind
the House also that when in 1835 the Coercion Bill, of a less
stringent character, was introduced, the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman for Cork deprecated the issuing of special com-
missions, and stated that the Government having declined the
attempt to diminish crime by such means, had, in his opinion,
taken a wise and prudent course. In support of this
statement he could quote Hansard, but he had no
desire to do so. He must observe at the same time
that before they could show the desirableness of issuing a spe-
cial commission, they must show that they could produce the
necessary evidence to prosecute. Now he was encouraged to
maintain this position by reading a short extract from the evi-
dence of Mr. Cahill, given before Lord Devon. That gentle-
man was asked whether he believed that the perpetrators of
agrarian outrages were known by the peasantry where they
were committed, and his answer was, that he was perfectly con-
vinced that the parties knew everything of the transaction, but
that there was little disposition to give any evidence against the
-erpetrators. He was then asked to what he attributed that
disposition, and he replied that it was not attributable to any
'error, but rather a dislike to injure those of the class to which
:hey belonged.—(Hear, hear, from the opposition.) He stated
also that such murderers were harboured and protected, and, ;n
point of fact, were looked upon as better men than others, be-
cause they put down what they called a tyrant. They re-
ceived the character of what they called a " good boy."—( Hear. )
that showed the difficulty of obtaining evidence. Perhaps
the Hon. Baronet the Member for Clonmell was entitled at
his hands to a peculiar explanation. He could give minute
oiformation with respect to the number of offences in the five
counties he had enumerated, and the number of committals.
The total number of offences was 1,188, out of which number
here were only 54 committals. In Tipperary the number of
offences was 285, and 19 committals. In the county of Lime-
rick' the number of offences was 210, and 12 committk ls. In
Leitrim there was 133 offences committed, and 8 committals.
Is Clare the number of offences was 171, and the committals
were 7. In Rosscommon, where he was sorry that crime was
on the increase, out of the large number of offences, 383, there
had been only 8 committals, in consequence of the unwilling-
ness of witnesses to come forward. The great majority of
those offences were committed during the night. In the
county of Tipperary between 130 and 140 of the offences were
committed at night.

Mr. DENISON—Not offences against life.
Lord LINCOLN resumed. Between 130 and 140 were
committed at night, and on the average between 60 and 70 in
the day time. The same proportion prevailed in the
other counties. The principles which were intended to be
embodied in this measure were similar in effect
to those which were already extended to districts in England
when cases of rebellion or rioting occurred. In every case of
riot the district was mulcted for the offences committed within
its range. There was another provision which was essentially
different from the Act of 1835, and that was to give power to
the Lord Lieutenant to proclaim any district instead of vesting
the power in the hands of the grand jury and gentlemen of the
county. He was astonished that any objection was made to
that provision. He believed that in 1833 the Minister, in his
place in Parliament, although he admitted that military tri-
bunals were very objectionable, yet still they were preferable to
the grand juries in Ireland as they were then constituted.
Ihe Honourable Member for Cork had said that there was at
present an opportunity for parties to traverse from the de-
cision of the grand juries, but there would be no means
of traversing from the opinion of the Lord Lieutenant. But,
he would ask, would not that House serve as a check upon the
manifestation of any extraordinary or improper power by the
Lord-Lieutenant ?—( Cheers.) Was not that"power sufficient
to restrain any Lord-Lieutenant horn improperly abasing the
powers with which he might be vested. The penalty in this
Bill was certainly more severe than in the former Bill. He
had understood on the first reading, that the Noble Lord the
Member for the city of London intended to move an amend-
ment on this clause in Committee, and he was surprised that the
Noble Lord should now turn round so soon, and make
this clause a reason for throwing out the whole Bill.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I propose to omit the clause
altogether.

Corti LINCOLN understood that it was his intention to
move an amendment in Committee, and he should be glad to
hear if he opposed the Bill on principle, at what period it was
since the year 1835 that his opinions had changed upon the
subject of coercive measures. It had been stated that the
Government adopted coercive measures and had neglected
conciliatory measures. He would ask whether the Charitable
Bequests Bill was not a proof of the good spirit in which they
had conducted the Government of the country ? Did not the
Government introduce a measure for the endowment of May-
nooth, which gave considerable offence to their friends? Another
measure was calculated to extend the system of national edu-
cation. Then, again, with reference to the landlord and
tenant question. The Hon. Member, who complained of the
Government not bringing in a Bill founded on the report of the
Devon Commission, e.( uld not have looked very attentively on
the paper or he would have seen that he had given notice at a
date not later than Friday next, of his intenion to move for
leave to introduce three Bills founded on these measure's. And
then with reference to the measures which the Government had
adopted to relieve she distress in Ireland, their opponents had 1
provided, to
given them creditlarfoer
extent,their enfodoedavouarnsd.
employment
for
They h
which
had
they
y 1
feltto endure
they
didthe
reproach of form
had to bear reproach in Parliament
not deserve ; they
which had only been cast upon them for
for the people ofa
former
Ireland.
friends,g
House—opprobrium
had voted considerable sums for the
party purposes. They ;
they had also distributed large
which he was sure they would not have received out of the
people of II eland, and
among the
qiiantities of Lydian meal
upon what had been done
they would look back in after years
ent as a proof of the good
in the present day by the Clover'
They had sane-
them.
feeling of the Government towards
promotion of public works .
involve an outlay on
works, which, when complete& would . .
half a million of money,
the part of individual proprietors of
for a
give both food and employment
Banc-
tinned the expenditure of P. 20,000/. for the promotion of public
and would, of course,
If
ficonsiderable time to the people in the districts where the works
constructed, and would also provide a valuable return for
disturb
invest i v i d u a t
ehl sde, i but:c statea ps i o
ti
at I long.
couldthe capital invested. He considered that although the Govern-
ment had done much, a great deal could yet be done by private in-
dividuals,
oa
ns
notb a z
the(
Members
pbueenerttsreyod
prt
ieh, moastai
tit
enh eewdli
sa
hni ned
(I:
et
trsod
dspresent
the landlords of any excuse for • in
not remaining the country
they should pass the present Bill, He felt himself bound to

make these observations, in consequence of the „4 allenee which but his paid Janizaries.—(Loud cheers from the protectionists.)
had been given him to show the necessity which existed for the Many of those who after voting expressed their shame at what
present measure. It eas easy to charge the 3overnment with they had been obliged to do. If such was the state of the Go-
tyranny and oppressien, and to make long and vernment, it was time to speak out and declare their sense of
eloquent- speeches on the subject. He feet that its conduct by voting against the measure. He asked the
if the Government had propoeed this measure as a Right Hon. Baronet if he had not lost the confidence of e'lefY
panacea for the. evils of Ireland, that then they would have honest man in that House—( Loud cheers)—and not only in
aeansted,
been
.jesnfled in pursuing the course they had adopted; but that House, but of every honest man in the country?—(Con-
the s
howevertat-, e of
goodsociety—as i
n itself, a
could
nh
ea
xd i 0 beenn .
lie
( L inconstanterd toG e
Oa;
though
fhressoo•urnmi tgi3hehemtnhwtbtehiehnerce: whom he r e
ehealdl e e
taendy conelio;
fioverement bed b-ought in this Rill avowedly as a filmed cheering.) In the course he had pursued, h
correctivewitn, t
whi for,
ha
adniys o rng,
they dial
otticii7i
1.. ,
nis
‘a2ytt issltefeaemekt onornfy
Ireland,otil
ime r
Billatio operation.
but
t likely The
tG
simplye oave:harannpmgr
eeepnatroawtonryedyn permanentlytehaa_t
tihneen c
lyLao7dn, a
fnhoorutnhateerddgelpi
question,
srotiwiuontne,
icfgt h tl it
nHh eee
no. fA
Baronetiienni nstsri
sy-,
sure ; an.l it was on that view and on that principle that it had , supported the same measure in 1829. In 1822 he told the
been introduced. He, for one, was perfectly ready to admit House, in supporting the measure, that he changed his opinion
his opinion as to the impossibility of any longer permitting in 1825, when he was connected with the Earl of Liverpool's
Ireland to sltereate benyeen lawless despotism
and ultra con- 1 Government.—( Hear, hear.) That, however, did not ime-
stitution il enactments. —.( Hear, hear.) And when he I vent him, in 1827, separating from Mr. Canning's Govern-
made that a lmi,sion. it was not at variance with the ment. It it was base, and dishonest, and inconsistent with the
priseiple nf ;be 111, abfl he knew it was net at variance with ' duty of a Minister to the Sovereign then, to maintain opinions
the spit t a i,li :In ,h tie Government looked upon the measure, after he had changed them, did not the Right Hon.
Baronet
He was ireeered le give his eri cipal support to it on this view, stand convicted on the verdict of base and dishonest conduct,
bet ,evirg liar it teas it meaaere calcuNted to restore peace and and of being inconsistent in his duty to the Sovereign in the
harmony to th,! cou,nry. And looking at the measure in this course he had pursued ? (Lour! protectionist cheers. ) Let
spirit he ventured in call upon that Ilouse to prove by its votes them recollect his conduct in 1827, and compare it with what
to-night, that they ?rill co ssent, however reluctantly, to suspend lit was in 1825 and 1829, and bear in mind that the coun-
the law whenever lawless vio'cnee is rife, rather than all law try would not twice submit to the same conduct.--( Hear. )
should be sot at variance, and the lives and property of the sub- It was time the country should know—it was time Europe
jet's of the realm jeopardised and endangered, and the peace- should know—it was time the world should know—that
ful security of the neig,hb nirhoo;l set at nought and destroyed, treachery had been committed by the Ministers in power.
Mr. MORGAN JOHN O'CONNELL—There was one ad- They certainly did not represent the feelings of the people, for
vantage which the Noble. Lord who just addressed the House the corn-laws might be lost to the agricultural interest—do-
had over any speaker who might follow him, and that was by the mestie industry might suffer—they might be betrayed. Europe
conciliatory tone which characterised his speech, and he would must not think—America must not think—the world must not
himself endeavour to follow the example he had so eloquently think that England was committed, or that England had par-
set. If he believed that this Bill was what its title pretended it ticipate i in the guilt of those who sat on the Treasury
to be, no party consideration, or no consideration of any other henches.—( Cheers. ) The time had come, when those Gen-
kind would prevent hies from giving it his support.—( Hear, tlemen who had been glad to avail themselves of the
hear.) But the arguments of the Noble Lord had failed com- treason of the Right Hon. Baronet, and Honourable Gentle-
pletely to convince him, and he had hearth with very great sur- men who considered the Right Hon. Baronet to be
prise the statement of the Noble Lord, that crime was rather on traitor to his principles, to combine in denouncing, the conduct
the increase in Ireland than on the diminution. He had, of her Majesty's Ministers, and in telling the Ministry that they
however, some constitutional mistrust of the reports coming should no longer presume to insult the country.—( Cheers. )
from the constabulary, when those reports were calculated to The time had come when, by placing the Government in a
bear out the views of Government, and he advised the Noble minority, they could drive them from power, and thus wipe
Lord now, and he advised any man about to be Secretary for away that dishonour which had been forced upon Parliament
Ireland, (and it would be very hard to say who might be by a renegade Ministry, and vindicate the character of the
Secretary for Ireland next year) to adopt for their first rule to British senate in the eyes of America, in the eyes of Europe,
distrust the constabulary ; and the next rule he would give and in the eyes of the world.—(Loud and continued cheering.)
them would be to distrust the law adviser for the Crown.— Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said he had upon a previous oc-
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord used a phrase which gave casien ventured to trespass upon the time of the House for
him great surprise; he had told them that this Bill was a some length, upon the subject of the Bill which had that night
temporary remedy for a temporary emergency. But did they for the second time been discussed, upon which had arisen so
know that this temporary remedy was brought in as permanent much of acrimonious debate, and during which so many
in its nature in another place? The Noble Lord had quoted charges had been urged against the Government—(lronical
largely from the constabulary returns, but a great proportion cheers )—eharges which were seldom urged—charges which
of these outrages were not agrarian. He slid not know on were couched in language little heard in that House--( Renewed
what principle these returns were made, but he was afraid cheers)— charges and language which he confessed for the sake
they were made in very nearly a similar manner to those which of preserving the character of the House ought seldom, if ever,
were made when the Arms Bill was brought forward. The to be used—( Renewed cheering)—charges which he would not
first use made of that Act was to deprive of arms all who were repeat, urged in terms which he would not retaliate so long as
repealers ;in a county, too, which was not a disturbed county. he had any self-respect for his own character—so long as he
That was the first use made of it by an Irish magistracy in had any respect for the character, the temper, and reputation of
one of the counties of Ireland. He, therefore, warned the that House.—(Continued (sheering.) Nor would he impute
House that instead of using the new powers which were con- to others motives which he scorned to be influenced by himself;
ferred by this Bill for the' object intended, the magistracy nor would he, under any temptation whatever, import into that
of Ireland would use it, not for its purpose of suppressing out-
House terms, language, and insinuations which were better
rage, but for destroying the liberties of the people, and sup- suited to some other arena than that in which gentlemen of
pressing the freedom of discussion. Many clauses of the Bill station, influence, and character were assembled to discuss
were fraught with the most serious mischief to the people, calmly, deliberately, and dispassionately measures vitally affect.
and would entail the greatest injury if carried into effect. in" the great interest of this country.—( Cheers.) The Noble
He believed that a law which would alter the agrarian system Li-rd had stated that her Majesty's Ministers could not be in
of Ireland would have more effect in doing away with crime in earnest in pressing this Bill. The Noble Lord founded that
that country than if they were to introduce such a measure as supposition on the fact that now, in June, when he had
the present for years to come. This was what was wanted for discovered that the days were long they were
Ireland. Alter the landed system of the country, and they pressing on the measure, but the Noble Lord forgot '
would find the god results of that alteration in the continued how upon another measure he and his party wasted night after
nresderity, and the total cessation of crime.--( Hear, hear.) night with long speeches, devoid of argument, put forward to
He believed that whatever was good for the tenantry of Ire- meet facts which could not be contradicted.—( Cries of " Oh,
land would he equally pod for the landlord—that which was oh.") But granting that the speeches contained argument—
goad for the one would be good for the other, and the whole granting that the facts were capable of being shaken by the
country would feel the beneficial results of that all-important trifling experience, or the seeming eloquence of the Noble
change.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped the Irish representatives Lord, he put it to the House whether it was possible for the
on both sides of the House, who during the whole period of Government to have brought the second reading of this Bill
the session had displayed a spirit of generosity towards their forward earlier than they had done.—(Hear, hear.) The
country, would not now be found wanting in substituting for Noble Lord had said that the Government should have brought
the measure before the House that which would be a lasting this Bill forward before the Corn Bill.—( Hear, hear.) That
good, instead of adopting that which would only entail more might be the opinion of the Noble Lord, but it was not the
misery, and revive that crime which did not now exist.—( Hear.) opinion of the country. The Noble Lord, whose powers of in-
He hoped that he might be pardoned for alluding to one credulity were so great—(Cries of "Ohl oh 1")—now told the
question, more especially as it might be remembered that he House that there was no necessity for interfering with the
did not trouble the House much that session on Irish affairs, liberties of the people of Ireland. He now told them, after
—(Hear, hear.) He was about to ahude to the Established three weeks' experience, that the course which:he had taken a
Church of Ireland, and in alluding to it he did not wish to few days ago was utterly unsound.—(" Oh !oh !") He (Mr.
cause anything like a division amongst the Iri h representa- S. Herbert) conceived that his conduct in that House had not
tives who differed with him on that question. He thought, disentitled himself to its attention—( Hear, hear)—and he
however, that he might with great propriety impress upon them thought he might be permitted to make a few ol:rerva-
the necessity of taking that question into consideration, tions with regard to what had fallen from the Noble Lord,
while they had the opportunity of settling it amicably, instead and he thought that even the Noble Lord would admit that he
of waiting till that period when they would be forced to was not disentitled himself to its attention.—(Hear, hear.)
concede much more than the country were now willing to As he had before said, the Noble Lord now, after three weeks'
accept.—( Hear, hear.) The people of Ireland would now be experience, told the House that there was no necessity for any
satisfied with a moderate reform in the Church establishment interference with the privileges of the Irish people ; but a
of that country, comparatively with that which they would short time ago he was so keen for this Bill, that he could not
demand at a future period, when the subject would lie forced allow the discussion to go on in the regular course, and in sup
upon the consideration of Parliament, and when nothing port of the Bill he cited cases in which women had been at-
less than a radical change in the whole system would tacked, fire-arms discharged into poor men's cottages, old ladies
satisfy them.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the measure attacked as they were returning from church in the broad day.
before the House, her Majesty's Ministers would do well to There was no language sufficiently strong to express his indig-
consider that the spirit of the age was not in favour of coercion. nation at the conduct of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) The
—( Hear, hear.) The spirit of the age was spoken out by her Noble Lord said that on the heads of those who opposed the
Majesty's Government, when, a short time since, they told the passing of this Bill would rest the blood of the murdered men
House that they had abandoned those principles which they of Ireland.--( Hear, hear.) Upon whose head did the blood
had been in the habit of supporting, to meet the reformed spirit of the murdered men now rest?—(Hear, hear.) Suddenly,
of the country.—( Hear, hear.) He called upon the House upon no change of circumstances in that country—at three
and upon her Majesty's nisters not to make this Bill an ex- weeks notice—the Noble Lord turned round short, and said,
ception to that new spirit of reform which had forced itself "We were anxious to prevent these atrocious crimes against
upon the Legislature; and feeling, as he did, that it was a God and man, but now our opinion is changed; this ehange
measure calculated to do irreparable injury, and work more does not arise from any regard to the welfare of the country—
mischief
than it could possibly put down, he should vote against there are other reasons for our conduct—(A laugh)—it is not
it.— (Cheers.) that we love Ireland less, but that we hate more the men
Lord G. BENTINCK said it would be in the recollection who at present hold the reins of Government.—(Laughter,
of the House that he gave his advice to her Majesty's cheers, and " Oh, oh," from the Protectiodist benches.)
Government, that if this measure was necessary for the Did the Noble Lord now take this course because be conceived
suppression of crime in Ireland, it ought to take it would be necessary for the benefit of the country ? No ; but
precedence of many questions then about to be entertained. because there were 'other reasons which prompted
It would also be remembered that at that time it was a measure him to do so. The Noble Lord had made use of sin-
of more emergency than many others, and it would be remem- gular logic on this question, and he (Mr. Herbert)
bored that when the measure was brought down to that House, could not have any affinity with the political
her Majesty's Ministers most solemnly impressed upon opinions of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had said the
them the necessity of immediately passing it into a law. Not- other night, that because a gentleman, who in his opinion had
withstanding that necessity six weeks had elapsed before it was qualities which entitled him to reign in the hearts of the people
again brought forward. When this Bill stood for a first read- of Ireland—(Heer, hear)—so great was his respect for those
ing there was no House, and when it was remembered that qualities which would so attach him to the whole of that people
there were two Government nights when it could have been that he (Lord G. Bentinck) was ready to sacrifice his opinions
brought forward, and on one of those nights the House ad- Whatever they might be—(No, no)—in order to carry out his
journedat nine o'clock, could it be said by her Majesty's Minis- views on this subject.—(No, no.) If it were deemed neces-
ters that there was any wish to press the measure?—(Hear, sary, he could quote the exact words of the Noble Lord. The
hear.) On the contrary he was of opinion that there was no Noble Lord had said, because the Hon. Member in question
desire whatever to press it, and those opportunities of bringing (Mr. W. S. O'Brien) had reigned in the hearts of the Irish
it forward were allowed to pass away. The cases federis people, he was prepared to make a proposal to him on the sub-
had now arrived when it behoved the party with which he ject of his Bill on the corn-law. The Noble Lord said, "It
(Lord George Bentinck) acted, to stand forward and you will propose to this House that the corn-law shall be sus-
prove to the Right Honourable Baronet that they were pended, though I believe there is no necessity for it, and
determined to act for themselves.—( Great cheering.) though I believe it will do harm—(" Hear, hear," from the
He could not help remarking that it appeared to him that protectionists)—yet such was the logical inference to which
crime in Ireland had diminished as tiss days had grown longer, the Noble Lord came, that although he believed there was no
and therefore, if this measure was to have been passed at all, necessity for the measure, and that it was totally wrong. he
it should have been passed when the days were short; but, in- would vote for it, because, as he said to the Hon. Member,
stead of that it had been postponed till the month of June.— " you are the man who reigns in the hearts of the people of
( Hear, hear.) Now, it so happened, that he found that, Ireland."—(Cries of "No, no.") He, therefore, saw
during the month of June crime had considerably diminished, some consistency in the course which the Noble
for it appeared by the returns tha' in the month of June, last Lord was now taking. The Honourable Member for
year, the various crimes amounted to 8.96, while in the same Limerick, who reigned in the hearts of the people
moots nth of this year, they did not exceed 820, and in the month
.1' Ireland was bitterly opposed to this measure, and yet the
y they were only 708. Contrasting these returns with Noble Lord, who was ready to vote, was prepared to vote for
the amount of crime committed in the months of November the measure because it was supported by that Hon. Gentleman,
and December, they were respectively 6132 and 607, so that the and because it was wrong. The Noble Lord was now ready to
Noble Chief Secretary of State for Ireland did appear to oppose this measure, because: it was likely to be opposed by that
he very well informed as to the state of crime in Hon. Gentleman, whose popularity was great amongst that por-
Ireland—(Hear, hear)—and when the Noble Lord came tior. of the people of Ireland who were disposed to dismember
here for the purpose of rescuing the Government from defeat, the United Kingdom. Now he ( Mr. Herbert) would not go
he ( Lord G. Bentinck) did not thin khe was very successful.— back into every case which the Noble Lord had adduced. They
( Hear, hear.) Indeed, the Noble Lord did not appear to have had had enough of discussion already on the subject of the
given much attention to Irish affairs, when he appears to have Corn Bill, and he did not think that the House would
been totally unconscious of the resistance of such a town as go over the same ground. The Noble Lord might
Castlebar.—(Cheers and laughter.) New he (Lord George make his accusations of treachery, and he might
Bentinck) should say he could see no cause for passing in the say that in consequence of their conduct, they had forfeited
month of June a measure that was needed in the month of his confidence--( Hear)—but he (Mr. Herbert) must say that
February. In comparing the year 1845 to that of 1846, he if the present Government was to cease holding office—(Pro-
could not find that crime had increased beyond 51/ per cent., tectionist cheers)—after the exhibitions he had seen—after
and he would say that such an increase would not justify the the willingness he had seen—on the part of the Noble Lord to
Government in passing such a measure as this, after having sacrifice his opinions at three weeks' notice, and to ally him-
brandished it before the people of Ireland so long with self to a political party with whom he could not have any faith,
being in earnest in their desire to carry it.—( Cheers.) In as to the loss that they were threatened with, the least that he
comparing the amount of crime committed in each of the two should care for would be the loss of the confidence of the
years he had mentioned, he frund that the crimes of incen- Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Noble Lord
• •
dial-ism, robbery of arms, firing at with intent to kill, threaten- had said that the Government were not in earnest in pressing ing no, ices, and such like, amounted in the aggregate, in the forward this Bill, and he quoted cases with that unfortunate
first five months of the year 1816, to 786; while within the love of arithmetic which disposed of human life as it did of
last three months they amounted to only 554. In the first five tallow and hides. He said that there had been 552 homicides;
months of last year those crimes amounted to 815; while in only in such a tone as to intimate, that in his opinion, those
the same period of this year crimes of a more mitigated cha- cases were not worth the notice of the Government. He had
ratter in the first five months of last year amounted to 1,701 ; also said there were so many threatening notices ; and his
while in this year they did not exceed 1,500.—( Hear, hear.) whole tone had been to the effect, that the Government had
The Noble Lord had told the House that this was a permanent not the slightest reason to interfere in the manner proposed._
measure to meet a temporary emergency—that was to say, that He (Mr. Herbert) thought the people of this country would
it was a measure which was intended to have met an emer- judge between the Noble Lord.—(Cheers, and counter cheers.)
gency that had taken place five months ago.—( Loud cheers.) she people know full well and will know how to value the
Now, these were some of the reasons which induced him to professions—(lronical cheers) -of the Noble Lord, who but a
oppose this measure upon thi. occasion; but he had still much short time since hurled his threatenings with so much irce
mere grave and important reasons for doing so. One of them against his own p We have introduced the znea-
arty with whom he is now allied.
was, that be could assure the House that the gentlemen who —( Great uproar. )
sat around him would refuse to trust her Majesty's sure, because we think it necessary to doso—
Goverinnent.—( Renewed cheers.) And if they had no other —( Loud cheers, and cries of dissent.) How it w was the
Noble
reasons, he conceived they had quite enough in the double Lord, who voted for the first reading of the Bill only a few
dealing which the Government had displayed.—(Cheers.) The nights ago, now turned round suddenly, without any fresh
House had been deceived by the statements that had been made statement ?—(Uproar. ) He would tell the Noble Lord for
by her Maj sty's Ministers four months ago. They were told his satisfaction, that the Government would persevere in the
four ion- tlis ago that there was a famine in Ireland, and that measure in spite of all his sarcasms and factious combinations.
four millions of the people were starving there—( Hear, hear) —(lmmense uproar.) He made no charge against
Hon.
—but after that hart recurred he could not see how any man of Members opposite. Those gentlemen who had opposed the
seine could trust her Majesty's present Ministers.—( Hear, measure before were bound still to do so.—(Loud cheers. )
changed
their course so sud-
hear. ) He would not now stop to discuss the merits of this lie spoke only of those who had
•
measure, but he would ask if it were necessary for the peace of denly. If he might be allowed to refer to the rumours which
Ireland a
Ireland did any mail believe the Government would carry it?— had been about the town for the last two days, that
to Noble Lord to bring his
whether to is
He would say that they never meant to carry it. He would ask proposal had been made a
whether any one who understood the forms of this House did not assistance a certain number of Gentleman, who were most
believe that the session would be long over before this measure anxious to divide with him, and that Noble Lord received the
would be dragged through the House of Commons?—(Cheers.) proposition with a silence which might amount to what might
There might he some lion. Members opposite who were under almost be called contempts.—( Cries of " Name, name."( Gen-
the impression that such a measure might have been necessary, tlemen who wished for the names might look after the divsion
but they could not believe that, even if it were passe., the Go- on the list, and they would see the names.—(Name, name.)
vernment ever meant to carry it into law.—( Hear, hear.) He had made no charge against any individual.—(oh, oh.)
Therefore he would say it was a waste of time, a mockery and He was speaking of a party by their acts —( Great uproar)—
an insult to the people of Ireland, to brandish this measure in and he did not know why he should be called upon to name
their face, which was never meant to be carried into a law, and a particular individual.—( Uproar.) He could only add that
therefore he would do his best to prevent that mockery being the Government would press the measure forward to its
done.—(Loud cheers.) The Government said that they were second reading.—( Hear.) He knew not what might be the fate
as much in earnest in carrying this measure as they were about of the measure.—(Cheers and uproar.) The Noble Lord who
the corn-law; but how differently had they dealt with it.— charged the Government with insincerity in bringing forward
( Hear, hear.) In the ease of the corn-laws all days were alike— the measure, knew little of the motives which actuated public
Goverment days and all others—and it was forced on men in the discharge of their duties—(" Oh, oh.")—and he
with all the zeal of new converts.—(Loud cheers.) trusted that House would never sanction a departure from that
They had short holidays and short notices of holidays. They honourable spirit in which the offices of Government should be
were worked up till the eve of Good Friday, and then they conducted. He for one would always regret being placed in
only adjourned till the Friday following. But no sooner was the hands of a man who seems incapable of underant i t l'th
at
the ng
the Corn Bill through, and the Coercion Bill introduced, than public men have a higher than party object to '
there was an alteration. If the alinisters really believed the who should be ready to sacrifice anything- maintain, and
13ill was necessery for the protection of life ard property in what they considered for the in order to support
Ireland, why had they thus procrastinated it r Why had so of the country. happiness, peace, and pr •
osperity
much valuable time been lost in pushing it forward?—( Hear, The Marquis of GRANBY conßid
hear, and cheers.) No sooner was the Coercion Bill intro- used upon the present occasionwhichered t hat
me had been
dueed than they had long holidays—(Cheers)—and on Tuesday sileration might not have be upon a more ature con-
and Thursday the-, adjourned at half-past seven o'clock. Was that they who had been so little used used.
He thought it unfair
there any man in that House and the country foolish enough to should be charged with usinge used to speaking in that House
believe that her Majtsty's Ministers were in earnest in the laved it for six weeks, and such language. They had introduction of of this Bill ?—( Hear, hear.) Believing that could s • '
suppose that theres, • he did ask the House whether they
was any necessity for passing this Bill,
they were not in earnest, the sooner the House got rid of the which he did believe, when Bill and her Majesty's Ministers the better.—(Tremendous existed, The fslte,
cheering from the protectionists.) With this view of the earnest, that felt 'Waq su.re that the Government wererlne
question he considered he should delay no longer to state on measure, incumbent on them to pass the
the and that the blood of the murdered
of the friends around him the
the part - victims in Ireland would be • if refused to
on their heads they pared to take. They
would have preferred to support amo - pass it. But when the corn-law was allowed to pass through
I
tion of no confidence, stillhe would accept the question as it the House instead of that more
important measure, he became
was before the House, and if the Government believed they convinced that there was notr
nthin
its
tsalleged
necessity.
were not infor t a phemositionto to ca
rry on_the affairs of the country it And they were now prepared to vote against it because they had
was time retiTbey had been told by Sir R. no longer confidencei her Majesty's Government. They
Peel, on a former occasion, tha.ralsie
hewould not consent to be had but little when they first supported it; but that little was
a Minister on sufferance. IA . not such a Minis- ; rendered still less by the course which they had pursued with
Sometimes depending on gentlemen
they had pursued
ter now ?
sometimes
Bill had diminished
on one side of the House, and on those around him with reference to the Poor-law Settlement
(Lord George Deanna), and supported throughout by none that confidence in a greater degree.--(Hells', hear.) They had

been told tlit.t night that they had entered into some compact
with the Noble Lord who conducted the opposition, but he
believed that the my compact which existed between them
was that they had no confidence in her Majesty's Govern-
ment.—( Cheers.)
Mr. ROSS meted the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL rose to put a question to the
Secretary at. War. The Hon. Gentieir..tr had used an ex•
pression towards an absent friend of his, which w.;.1!(1 denote
him as a person wishing the dismemberment of the empire.
If that expression applied to the Honourable Member
for Limerick, it also applied to all those who shared
his opinion on the subject of the Legislative union,
and it was one which they must meet with the shortest
and fattest denial. It might appear ridiculous that they should
be sensitive on the point, but he could not allow any one to
impugn his loyalty, ant therefore, he for one could not suffer
the expression to pass without demanding an explanation.
They did not wish the dismemberment of the empire, but on the
contrary, they wished to see Ireland placed in a closer con-
nexion with England, upon a fair ant legislative enactment.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN rose to ask en explanation,
which the Hon. Gentleman should consider not an un-
reasonable demand after what had pasted. The Hon. Gen-
tleman had said, that there had been a proposition made
by Gentlemen below the gang-way, to the Noble Lord who
conducted the Opposition, which proposition had been treated
by him with something ich it would be considered unparlia-
mentary to term contempt.—(Hear. hear.) If the Hon. Gen.
tleman had made the assertion in the heat of debate, he (Mr.
O'Brien) felt perfectly sure that he would be very glad to get
up and offer an explanation ; but if, on the contrary, he had
expressed it firmly and advisedly, he also felt certain that he
would have no hesitation in naming the party. He did
not wish to add one word of bitterness, but he certainly
did feel it incumbent on him to demand an explanation.
With the permission of the House he would read part of
his
that correspondence, and if
Not havebleu Friend had written it
tto
in a spirit of prophecy, he could
ade it more ap-
plicable to the present circumstances.(The Hon. Member
here read an extract from a letter of the 21st ofssMaahrccuhr.feiwn
which the Noble Lord stated that the measure
wwhsever
and unconstitutional measure, and that no ground
existed for its adoption.) From that letter it would
be at
that the casus fien'eris did not rest with the Noble Lord,
aeneld he put it to the Noble Lord himself to state whether anything
had really occurred.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said that what he had alluded
to wer€ rumours which had come to his knowledge through the
ordinary channels, but he did not refer to persons. He did not
assert of his own knowledge any of the facts. He made the
statement from rumour that certain communications had taken
place between Hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House and
the Noble Lord the Member for Loudon. It there had been
any blame to the party in taking such a course, it was not for
proposing to take it, but for actually taking it.—( Oh.)
Mr. E. YORKE trusted that the House would not think
him out of order in making the present application. A
statement had been made that a certain application or overture
was made to the Noble Lord ( Russell). Now, he felt that if any
such application had been made, it must have been made by some
person.—(Laughter.) It was necessary, then, that the name
of the person who had made such a statement to the Right
Hon. Gentleman should be given.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that in answering the Hon. Gen-
tleman sitting on that bench (Mr. Stafford O'Brien) and the
other Hon. Member who had just sat down, he could state
that no such application was made to him by the Noble Lord
the Member for Lynne, nor by any other Hon. Member. The
Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland might have remembered
that on the first reading of this Bill he (Lord John Rus-
sell) had stated that he had an objection to that
portion of the Biil which confined parties to their
houses after certain hours in the evening. He stated
then, that though he would vote for the first reading of
the Bill he would reserve his opposition to another stage, and
that he would oppo e the question on the second reading. In-
timate friends of his own asked him (Lord John Russell) what
his intentions were in respect to this Bill, and they also wished
him to state whether he had any objection to their stating to
those with whom they acted what his intentions were with re-
spect to the measure. Certainly he did not treat those friends with
any contemptuous silence, and he told them that he had stated
his intentions in the House on the first reading of the
( Hear, hear.) But he would not say that he had not stated
anything I,hich he had not stated on a former occasion, and he
again repeated that no application was made to him for a coali-
tion from Hon. Members on the other side of the House.--
(Hear, hear.) He opposed it on public grounds, for it was a
Bill, in his opinion, which would be of great injury to life and
property, thus having the opposite effect to that which it was
intended.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said that after what had fallen
from the Noble Lord, he had but to state to the House that
the rumour which he had heard was without foundation, and he
therefore begged to withdraw the statement he had made
founded on such grounds.
The debate was then adjourned.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir R. PEEL rose to move that on Thursday, the 18th of
June, orders of the day should have precedence over notices.
At the present period of the session a third day had usually
been conceded to the transaction of public business, and he
begged leave, therefore, to move that on Thursday, the 18th
instant, and all succeeding Thursdays, orders of the day should
have precedence.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL objected to such a motion being
made at that moment, in so thin a House. If a greater num-
ber of Members were present he would enter upon the grounds
which induced him to think that the House ought not to enter.
tain the motion, but he should now move that the debate on
the motion be adjourned.
Mr. REDHEAD YORKE thought that the course pro-
posed by the Right Hon. Gentleman was the course which
had been usually adopted, and was also the natural course, and
therefore, if the House went to a division, he should vote with
her Majesty's Government.
Mr. FOX MAULE also declared his intention of support-
ing the proposition of her Majesty's Government. The motion
was usually made at this period of the session, and if it was
necessary in any session it was especially necessary in the pre-
sent, when from protracted debates the business of the country
was considerably in arrear.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said that if the Right Hon.
Genbtleman would promise not to use the Thursdays for
the purposes of the Coercion Bill he would withdraw his
motion, or even if the Right Honourable Gentleman would
promise that he would not use the Thursdays for the present
stage of the Bill, the second reading.
After a few words from Dr. Bowring, Mr. Borthwick, and
Mr. B. Hawes,
Sir ROBERT PEEL observed, that in bringing forward
this motion, which was a customary one at this period of the
session, he had acted, not through a desire to consult the con-
venience of any member of the Government, but merely from
a sense of public duty and with a view to the facilitation of
the public business, which was still very much in arrear.
He must decline entering into any such stipulation as that
proposed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny
respecting any particular order, but he assured the lion.
Gentleman that in declining to do so nothing was more
remote from his intention than his desire to take any unfair
advantage with regard to the discussion on the Iri h Bill.—
(Hear, hear.) He brought forward this motion without any
special reference whatever to the Irish Protection Bill, and
would have brought it forward though that measure had
never been introduced.—( Hear, hear. )
After some further discussion,
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL, in deference to the feeling o
of the House, withdrew his motion.
The original resolution was then agreed to.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of and the
House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock.