The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-23 00:00:00

the flea Muse!". Now, my Lords," your Lordships base
been pleased, in your late diseu;sions in the Corot:wire
on the Corn Bill to adhere strictly to tli s goes 'Volt.
Lordships refus.d to agree to amencn-nts on the Corn Bid.
No doubt, had you agreed to these anendtrosots, ism would
have lost the Bill. My Lords, it is not of ly the Losing of the
Bill you are to consider, but what would he the conseyuence
making alterations in the Committees in she elau-e, of money
Bills. &wise Bills, and Customs Bills. Your Lordships would,
in point of fact. find afterwards that the proceeding; in Portia-
Meat would be entirely paralysed. filese are the incomnierices
which ii am desirous to beg of your Lordship; nut to incur ; ins
ssonv.-niences which the public will fer.l m ,st severely ant most
Particularly; and I conclude that your Lordships will fi,ve
the same feeling upon this Bid as you had wain the other B
That whatever may be the effect upon your opinions by the ar-
guments of counsel, you will not consent to make any altera-
tion. in the details eontainee in this itill,and in the schedule
of the yetis- upon silk, but that ycu mill persevere in voting for
the 3ill. You will establish a precedent. by hearing counsel in
Committee against the details of that Bid which must be at-
tended with the gfeatest possible inconveniences, not fully to
your Lordships by impeiin;.t, puhlie bu-oness, but alto by in-
ducing you to listen to argut_eents for a col:4 lerahle time to
which you were sensible at the time you would give
no attention.—( Hear, hear.) And thus you will
have es-ablished a precedent which must b useless as to pop,
selves, but ninst dangerous to those who Iva feel tip: evil
effects o' this precedent. by emplos ins couns.l to come her to
p'ead their cause, which your Lordships must knew can have
no oval in inducing you o make any atterati oi in the detai's
o• the Bill. What 1 am particularly anxious to call your
Lordships' attention to is, that the motion is to induce you to
listen to counsel in the Committre on tlors Bill, of which the
object is to levy duties or cuetoins or different branches of
trade
The Duke o!' RICHMOND—My Lord:, I did not intend
to rise again on this subject. but tor the speech of my Nob e
Friend the Noble anti Gallant Duke, cud I must say that I
rise to protest against it —( Great ehcering. ) 11 this is to b.
the c•institution of Parliameet- Cheers)—l will ask" your
Lordships whether it is no a m.-re farce wpm legislation—
( Vehersent anti long-continued creerieg from the p oteetion-
ist Peers) —to call ~n us. night .fter night, to speak up-in a
Bill? and then. forsooth, we are to be told that it oust be
passed because the Flow.e of Commons have said so.—( Great
cheering.) My Lords, I contend that these petition. rs hive a
right to be heard.—( He4r, hear.) My Lords, I will not ce.ain
you by saying more than that, it this is to be the
future course which is to be pursued by the
Government, I hope you will alter your standing order,—
(Cheers)—and that they will say that the Q ieeit's consent
and that of the Commons is sufficient. --( Cheer:.) That most
be the result of this argument as ventured to be made in this
House.—( Hear, hear.) If it had been made by a young man
who had just run away from schist, I should not hays noticed
it—(Laugh.er)—but when it comes from my Noble Fiend.
the Noble and Gallant Duke, I am biund to protest against it,
and I shall certainly feel it my du'y to take the sense of your
Lordships' House on the mot —( Cheers. )
Their Lordships then div,ded, when there aypeared—
For the motion—Present 43

Pr..xies

-74
Against the motion—Present
Proxies .............. ..... 36 .
—7B
Majority against the motion —4
On our return to the gallery we found
Lord BROUGHAM on his legs, protesting against proxies
being used in such a question as that just under c,msideration.
Those who represented the proxies could net have heard the
arguments brought forward on behatt of rtit toners, and, there-
fore, could not be supposed capable of forming any judgment
on the point whatever.
A desultory eonversation then ensued from a question put bs
the Earl of Charleville to th' Duke of Huccleutrh, as to whe-
ther the Noble Duke had heard the question put from the
chair, in which the Earl of Horne, Esrl of Haildington, and the
Earl of Dalhousie took part.
The Earl of WICKLOW thought that in these reforming
times proxies ought to be disallowed. At any rate, in the
question before them, he considered the privilege of using them
ought to have been waved.
Earl GREY concurred with the Noble Feld ( Wicklow) that
proxies should be abolished, and if the Noble Earl would make
a motion for their abolition, he would sapport him; but as
long as proxies were allowed. he thought the present subject
was one in which they could be legitima ely exerciesd. 1-15
agreed with the Noble Earl. however, that in these reforming
times they ought no tenger to be permirted.
The Duke of RICHMOND thought the discussion ought
not to be protracted, as, it was an inconvenient erne. For his
own part he was always ready to submit to a ma:ority, but he
thought that the decision just come to Wits a very injudicious
one, and that the privilt ge of using the proxies on such a sub-
ject where a majarity present were in favour of the motion,
ought not to have peen exercised.
Lord STANLEY thought that if ever there was a ease
where the votes of those who were present should have over-
ruled the votes of those who were absent, the present was one.
They who were called upon to deceit. in Committee had de-
cided that they would hear the petitioners by stoun-el at the bar
of the House, but their verdict was overruled by those who
Were absent, anti who, without hearing ant of the arguments
which had been advanced, virtually proriounceit that hole
present should not hear the staterne,,ts of the petitioners. A
stranger case could not have been made out. lt was not,
however, for the purpose of en.ering into this question that
he rose, nor to interpose any delay Iwo some into Committee ;
but he thought he should save the time of their Lordships if he
made a few observations then, rather that, unnecessarily oc-
cupying their time on the individu4l articles. If he were de
sirous of finding fault with her :11A-sty's, Goverson .nt, he
should have no diffieulty in showing that. that Bill was incon-
sis'ent with the other Bill they had brought forward in refe.
rence to corn, and which a Noble Lord pro,,ounced,ex cathedra,
to he a perfect exemplification of the principles of free trade.
They should have treated the subject to which this measure ap—
plied in the same way as they proposed to do with agriculture.
They would. if they continued in this principle, find the land.
owners calling for the removal of teller restrictions. He hoperi
they would not so stultify themselves by asking for the same
infliction of injury on others as was to be inflected on them-
selves—he hoped not, for though the measure might for the
present succeed, they would find that the landed interest would
still continue their opposition to this measure. He would
Warn the Government that they would find themselves in the
course of twelve months in a very dangerous posit on. Now
there was a reduction of revenue of 2,346,1 00/., and on corn
alone there bad been a reduction of 3.57.t:00/. alone, and it tea,
with such a falling off they prono-ed to take away pro ection
from agriculture. This reduction of the revenue would be
much greater in the course cf another year, and it will 'hen be"
seen how politic the measure proposed by her Majestt's Go.
vernment was, and how well it will have worked for the
advantage of the country. Now the importation ~f
silk since the reduction of duty on that article
was very great, and it was at this moment they Proposed to re-
duce the-duty still further. These was also to be a reduction
On timber. Again there was to be a reduc ion on boots sod
shoes; and what would be the result if the benefit would not be
to the humbler clas.es, for it was well known that hoots were
an article of luxury. and the advantage would be to persons
who, like their Lordships, could ahord to purchase them. In
1841 there was a duty of 2/. I4s. per d Zen pair, anti to 1842
thatduty was reduced to I/. 9,4 d. The increase of import s-
tion was from 4,d21 dozen to 8,350, 12,22 e, 13.261. and
14,387 Was it at so increased an importation that they should
now reduce this duty from 1!..95. 4d. to 16s. This was a
duty which would materially affect the workmen of this
country. The items he had given applied to mens' boots, but
they would apply in like manner to women's shoes. He
thought the duty was quite low enough as it
at present stood to enable their Lordships to pur-
chase that article of 1 linty. —( Hear, hear.) He
thought it right to make these few ob ervations before the
House went into Committee. for be ronsidered that, a, cording
to the arguments of her Majesty's Ministers, it had been
shown that the import trade was most prosperous, and that
the revenue was good. That with such a state of things a
great reduction should he proposed recieired some explanation
from the Government, and he hoped it would be given.
The Earl of DALHOUSIE said, that in rising to answer
the question put by the Noble Lord ( Stanley) he would en-
deavour to follow him as closely as possible. Ile Noble. Lord
bad statel that her Majesty's Government had introduced this
measure because they were fast urab'e to fief, trade—beeause
they were vvill,ng to a lopt the measure as a free trade question.
Lord STANLEY exp'ainee what he had said was that the
government had not introduced it as a free trade measure,
but that they had on the contrary introduced it as a measure
favourable to protection—they had professedly introduced it
as protective measure, whereas in reality its effects would be
the reqertte.
Earl DALHOUSIP.—There certainly wore in the Bill
„distil he had submitted to the House may anomalies which
te would have wished removed. What her Majesty's Govern.
eases wished to do WV*, as they were about to remeve all
vestrictioes on fu d,
scaryry articles to reduce alt.) the duties on all other neces-
sesieh ivessed heavily on the poorer e asset of the
were such as
community. The duties em woollen cleliing
pressed neavilti on the poorer classes. arid it was with a view
to their benefit that theyproposed such reductions.
Upon articles partially or wholly rannua‘heteurPel, it was hut
Tight that there must be duties levet ,n
ma was
c.r
edecidedly of
of 10 per cent:
in, _ f articles,
opinion that a dtry bat simply f,,r the.
wes not to he regarded as a pestese.ve Y
lasked
purposes of re tenu,. Hi, Noble Friend ha. him wt at
ight be the less of c
hefrevene the repeal of the duties now
is
;proposed? 0, this point w la accept the amount of 1
seta ed by the Noble Lord. The"Cheneellor of the xchequer,
n the other House of Pat liamentw. had scattedh.
eththoe probable
t, a fair
it about 700,0001. per annum, hich wl
airtime.. If that were so. they *lseult' be guided by what had
;taken place after the last alreratinn in the tariff,
when there
which
ea large reduction the first year after the cbh :twee,
gradually
became less till it righted it•ielf The following re-
-turns would show how the tariff n' 1842 had operated :
•
In 1842, the reduction in the Customs were 1,3•51).0091 ; in
1843, the Customs were 20,20`1.0001.sgainst 19.00,005/ ,
yhe receipts cf the year before. In 1844 the duty ta-a,
.21 AOO,O instead of 20,21-'0;100t0/.; thus showing that the
Customs had gradually recovere to.ssotreasioned by the tes
duetion cif let 42. The total reduction r.ri Excise and Customs
thus aff irded was 2.400.000/.; and the following was the result
in 1845. independent of the great benefit that
.hatl been con-
pts for Exsise
ferred on the country. In 1845, the total revel
and Customs were 33,400,000/. against 31,100,001. in 1842.
This showed'that the revenue was gradual y imitroved year by
year, while it had given a great stimulus to production. and
operated as a powerful incenrive to trade and commerce.
( Hear, hear ) The Government had not the slightest doubt
but that gradually the amount 104 won d be replaced ny increased
.consumption. The experience of the past yes a euarantee for
the future. His Noble Friend referred to several other arti-
cles its which reductions were to be made, arid asked what
goad result would come from these. With regard to butter and
cheese, it would have been inconsistent to have reduced duties
in other articles of a similar kind, and left them standing,
t+ The
from I/. to
N
hence it was prop 'mid to reduce the duty o
Lord had
Noble
o le r
instituted
10s., and on cheese from 10s. to b r
talked as if 'hese duties were of a long standing,
for protective purposes; whereas, they were tier g
the end of the war.—( Hear.) The present sein,
was. but
till
similate the duties to what they were before the prese,utt duties
ri oas.
had been imposed. The reduction of duty oti ler ter
cheese was made because these were articles that entered and
tensively into the consumption of the pesple. The same ergs_
went applied to the article of foreie i cattle, which the Nob 4,
Lord had likewise referred to, The next point. the Noises Lord
dwe:t on was the silk trade. He said, truly the juior. aof
silks had been yearly increased, but lie ( Litt: Dalhousie) did
not think the proposed alteration would much affect those im-
ports. The duties under the old law ranged from 3') per cent.
to as much as 300 per cent., thus often defeating the saving in
any revenue from these articles, and it was to get rid of this
auomals, and to raise a regular revenue from this branch of
*rode that the present duty of 15 per cent %vs.; "reposed.
-Whale dwelling on this he,itl, he would eww the exttor,s trom
France totsis coun•ry, in varion years. fr .m 1827 to 1843,
with the aMoun: clewed out here lor consumption :
Exported from France Cleared out in nightnd
to England. for con,ninotiou.
1827 ..... 224,885 lbs. ...... 101,000 lbs.
1828
1834 ..... 317,000 lbs.
1840 •••• 625.000 lbs.
1643 ......... ..•. 484,00011,5.
any hr e.,ial axon ted f urn Franc •to En-21.0fi from 1827 to
1 lite was 6 anti elearo,l out for eensumption in
the country 3,10 ..0(i0 lb: ; ,Ito vitiz that the amount of that
cleared out for consumption did not extend to more than 59 per
test. of the whole imported. 4140 altogether, therefore,