The Sun.
London, England, 1846-01-27 00:00:00

time and money. The instant that Committees we re
formed, counsel were employed, and the same kind of
speeches were made by counsel that had so often been
told before other Committees of the House. The time
of the Members of the Committees was thus wasted, and
great expense entailed on the promoters of the Bills.
That done, counsel went to another Committee just
formed, and wasted its time in the same manner he had
done on the previous one in which he had been engaged.
This great waste of time, and these long speeches of
counsel, had led him to support the institution of a per-
manent body to sit and examine into railway Bills—a
body that would exert an influence so as to put an
end to this waste of time and money. In that
case he would be bound there would be no trifling
with time. There was another topic which he would
mention. He had heard it said that considering that all
these inquiries involved large considerations of capital,
and that the Members of that House were largely in-
terested in the amount of property disposed of, they
should do away with all suspicion by having
an independent tribunal. He had merely men-
tioned this, and would not say more on the
topic. The plan that he proposed would obviate
this difficulty. The House would recollect that last ses-
sion these inquiries were to some extent in the hands of
the Board of Trade, and every one objected to
the decisions of that Board, but the reason of
that in his opinion was that that Board had not
sufficient power. They had only the power of report-
iag on a third or a fourth part of the question,
not upon the whole. They only collected engineering
evidence, and reported on it to the House, but they did
not examine evidence affecting individuals. They left
out three-fourths of the evidence, which it was necessary
to hear properly to make a report to the House, and
took only one-fourth. The fault was not that they gave
the Board of Trade too much power, but because they
gave it too little.—(Hear, hear.) This was his
great objection to that Board, merely giving it
power to report upon one portion of the case.
He thought that the plan now followed was the very
worst that could possibly have been devised, and though
he could not in any way impugn the honesty of the
motives of those by whom the duties of those Committies
have been discharged, yet he Mt that the mode in which
this business was managed was a disgrace to Parlia-
ment and the empire. lie did conceive, therefore,
that by the appointment of such a body of men
as he had just suggested, there would be a large amount
of expense saved, and the system would work in-
finitely better than any private Committee of that
House could possibly do. If the consideration of
the expense were to be taken into account,
they might follow the example set them by several of
the other judicial institutions of the country, and
throw the cost of the proceedings on the promoters of
the several Bills which were to be submitted to the Le-
gislature.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP felt a little surprise that so
humble an individual as himself should have been
thought worthy of any particular notice on the present
occasion. He was aware, however, that it was well
known that he bad a great distaste to what were called
commissionerships, and he felt this distaste because he
had invariably found, that these same commissioner-
ships generally drew enormous sums from the public,
and were almost invariably neither more nor less than
jobs, proposed though they might be by both sides of
the House. Now he had greater objection to this com-
mission, because it was said to be for the good of what
were called these important schemes, though, in his
epinion they were anything but important schemes.
He was the more convinced of the truth of this impres-
sion, because he saw that the Hon. and Gallant Member
—(Laughter)—the Hon. and Learned Member he
believed he ought to call him—had so made his pro-
position, that these commissioners, however assidu-
ously and earnestly they performed their duty, could not
receive a single sixpence of their pay until the title to
it had been certified by another commission, appointed
to supervise their conduct. He had, therefore, the less
to object to the Honourable Gentleman sug-
gested by the Right Honourable Baronet.
He stood there as the representative of an impor-
tant commercial city, to discharge impartially a
public duty, and he demanded, on behalf of the
public of England, that all the members of the railway
Committees should not be interested, either directly or
indirectly, in any of the schemes that might come beforo
them. He did not wish to speak disrespectfully of any Hon.
Member, but in his opinion it would be little better than dis-
honesty for an Hon. Member to tit upon a Committee ap-
pointed to consider the merits of two schemes, in one of which
he was immediately interested. Many of the projects, although
their promoters said they brought them forward for the benefit
of the public, were nothing but gambling schemes, and in the
last session of Parliament, while the Railway Clauses Con-
soldiation Bill was under consideration, he did his best to make
the promoters of these schemes more responsible than
they were for some of their acts and deeds.—(Cheers.)
lie felt it his duty to make these observations, but he sincerely
hoped that no Member in the House would consider that he
was eonneeted either directly, or indirectly, with any railway
scheme. For his own part he did not wish to be connected
with any railway project.—( Laughter.) He would rather put
his hand into the fire in fact than purchase a railway share.—
( Continued laughter.)
Mr. GEORGE HUDSON said he considered it his duty to
make a few observations, in consequence of the remarks that
had fallen from the Right lion. Baronet (Sir R. Peel). He
would suggest to the Right Hon. Baronet, that the schemes
which should come before the House, should pass through a
certain ordeal, viz., that all the dersits should be paid in
prior to their being enabled to pass through the standing orders.
( Hear, hear.) It it were not so, the committee might comraend
many schemes, the promoters of which were not in a competent
position to carry them out.--( Hear, hear.) lie was
not alarmed, like the Right Honourable Baronet, as to the
amount of money which might be required in the execu-
tion of the contemplated lines of railway ; because that
money was not going out of the country.—( Hear. )
One-fifth nearly of the money expended in the making of the
proposed lines would go into the pockets of the landowners,
and it was likely that they would invest that money in the rail-
ways which passed through their districts; they would, most
probably, invest it in mortgages to the companies. The iron-
mongers, and other parties concerned in the making of mate-
rials for the lines, would also receive another large portion of
the money expended in railways.—( Hear, hear.) The Right
lion. Baronet had spoken of the distress in Ireland, but surely
the making of new railways would be the very best thing to
alleviate that distress, for the superabundance of labourers in
the country would be thereby afforded employment. The
Right Hon. Baronet said that the amount of money to be ex-
pended in railways should be limited—but was it possible to de
so? He should imagine the case of a line proposed to pass
through the West Riding of Yorkshire, in which, of
course, there was great necessity for easy means
of transit through the different parts of that district.
why, to deny the right of these persons to make their
railway would be an immense hardship. It seemed to give
the Committee a power which he did not quite understand.
He might be told that it would only be a report of a Com-
mittee; however, though not a proficient in Parliamentary
business, he had learned sufficient to know that a report of a
Committee gives a weight with which it is impossible to con-
tend. Were these lines of national importance ? Were they
laid out in such a manner as to afford abundance ? If they were •
he did not doubt but money and means would be found in
abundance to carry them out, provided always that the money
was not called out of the country for other objects, pro-
vided it was not called out on South American Bonds, or
to buy foreign corn—(Loud cheering from the Ministerial
benches.) He did not wonder there was some alarm
that there would be a deficiency of money when measures like
that he alluded to were proposed. And it behoved them, if
they were carried out, to button up their pockets until they
should see hew they would turn out. He was quite certain
that if the House applied itself to the consideration of those
lines with which it was competent to deal, they would be able
to transact the whole business which would be brought before
it. There might be defects, it is true, in some of their de-
cisions. He, himself, might have been very frequently grieved
.
at many of them—( Hear, hear)—but he, always, on calinfet
re-
flection, felt that those decisions were honest, and always
the utmost respect for them, and he ever was prepared
by them. Let them not take any. measures until
they
o abideknew
Bills,w t etfeorr the ewpartiess
ayof
these psrcoehwceoeimtefhdet
hswhewoi tntiehrooeut
uhrtetei
0:r
m
rt atiiine occupy
thattthheeyatnwimdould get through
notoriousw ere
thatn a
o
business with satisfaction to public,
and not in
faeicondition
e
the
Ifefctthiveye'.did this he
themselves.
Mr. FOX MAULE congratulated the House on having se.
cured the services of so valuable a Member as the Gentleman
who had just sat down. He thought the Committee proposed
one of the most important that was ever appointed in that
House. He also considered that all districts where rail-
ways were to be made should be fairly represented in the Com-
mittee, tor tie had to complain that, with ormer Committees
who had been appointed to decide upon railways, there was not
a fair representation. Scotland had not got its
fair proportion
of representation. The only Member representing a large
constituency who
Honourable Member
s—e
oiraeialrw,aphear.w)as
Wtihthe
wfaosr Dounm Dumfries.—se
it ehso.
reference to the other points, viz., as to the ascertaining
matters of fact connected with, the different projected lines.
He agreed with the Hon. Member for Devonport, that a re-
cord of them might be made up by persons authorised by both
Houses of Parliament, or by any other body appointed for that
purpose ; and he considered that such a tribunal would be
much preferable to the system formerly adopted. He con-
sidered that the decisions would be more correct, as they
would be obtained with more care, and a heavy portion of the
business which passed in former sessions on Committees of that
House would be discharged with more ease to all the parties
concerned, and with greater advantage to the public at large.
With those observations, then, and trusting that the Corn-
mittee would be framed in such a manner as would ensure the
fullest confidence, he would not enter his protest against the
question ; but it would be too late to object when the names
should be called, as that would be making what might appear
invidious distinctions.
Mr. CHARLES RUSSELL said he did not participate
in the apprehension that the mode of selecting the Committee
would be regarded with distrust or dissatisfaction, or that the
mode of investigation would create the same feelings. this
Committee, if he understood it, was not intended to investi-
gate the merits of any line, but to regulate the manner in
which a general principle could be applied to the mode of
conducting those investigations—( Hear, hear)—and he had no
doubt but that this duty would be discharged with justice to all
parties, and satisfaction to the publie.—(Hear, hear.) Cone
nected as he was with railways, it would not be for hi.n to sug•
gest what the principle ought to be ; but this he would say,
hope
that if any preference were to be given to any, he would
.
that that preference would be given to Ireland—(Near, hear.)
Believing, as he did, that the evils of that countre were not
frozo.
people owing to religious or political differences,
butt
entirelythat country.—
want of employment for the poor that they should
( Hear, hear.) lie did think it was time that
into that
take means for pouring some of their surplus
country.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he had a very important
question to remark upon. There
s were two Members fo rwhota
the House entertained very
great respect, and who entirely
differed in their opinion
on that question. The Hon. lliember
.
f a railway communication
said, thatbetween
for Sunderland
two towns were required, and if all the landholders on the Ina
. Tina
were ready sent, and parties w
with their
f( as ere ready to ad-
vance money for the project—supposing the whole to be in
that state of advancement—yet Parliament had the power of
placing
is veto on that project, and hindering its construc-
tion,Member for Readingsaid The Hon. that the exercise aae
tion.
of that power would cause great derangement in the money ' '
market and in the labour market, and very great evils would
follow in the event of Parliament stopping such projected line.,
and that very great evils would also follow the attempt to co nn
struct too many railroads. He (Lord John Russell) own a
that the question assumed a grave and important character, AD
ought not immediately to be referred to a Committee. T'g e
Frst Lord of the Treasury, or the Chancellor o(
, the
Exchequer, ought to come to the House, aw stat •
what public inconvenience would, in their opinion, 414
,sefrom
he construction of so many railroads, and what ine.,its Quo,