The Sun.
London, England, 1848-05-31 00:00:00

as regarded the bar and the bench, a strict mono-
poly, arbitrarily excluding from its profitable sphere,
any, the most exalted merit, beyond its own imme-
diate pale. Again, the judges of these courts were
exempt from that :constitutional check which the
law placed upon that conduct of all other judges.
Those were removable by an address from either
House of Parliament. These, whatever their misconduct,
could defy public opinion, from their judicial seat, unless
removed thence by the Bishop of the diocese. And here
he would remark, that this connexion between the
spiritual overseers of the Church !and courts of law
appeared to him by no means calculated to increase the
efficiency of the Church, or to raise its character in the
eyes of the community. He contended that it was per-
fectly monstrous that courts so utterly inefficient, and so
entirely removed from public supervision, so entirely
destitute of public respect, should have the sole jurisdic-
tion over matters of such vital importance to the State
and to every individual member of it as marriage and
its dissolution, legitimacy and bastardy, the validity
of wills as regarded personal estate ; the validity
of testarnentery dispositions of real property being
vested in the ordinary courts of the kingdom,
ran anomaly which every day occasioned the
Most serious, in some eases the most destructive
results, to persons who happened to have both personal
and real property.bequeathed to them by the testator.
Another jurisdictlon vested in the ecclesiastical courts
was that of disputed church-sates; it was clearly impos-
sible that Dissenters, at all events, could regard with any
respect or confidence the decisions of an ecclesiastical
court upon their resistance to a church-rate. It had
been recommended by the Commissioners that this juris-
diction should be withdrawn from these courts; but the
recommendation had not been carried into effect. An-
other jurisdiction which it was most desirable to remove
from these courtn was the cognizance of defamatitn
causes, causes for the most part affecting the lowest order
of the community, brought generally for the utterance, in
auger, of words imputing incontinence to parties, and al-
ways involving the unfortunate person decided against in
costs which, to people of the humbler ranks, proved ab-
solutely ruinous. The Hon. Gentleman mentioned seve-
re]
uselanguage in some street
quarrel, were mulcted in costa to th extent of 301., 40/.,
and even 60/, and upon the non-payment which, in their
utter poverty, was a mutter of course, sent to prison.
casesof hiisn sortwh which
hf
p defamatory women,mltOy
pronounced guilty of the
As to the diocesan courts, the L..)rd Chief Justice of
England had pronounced them utter nuisances; and ano-
ther authority, clearly exempt from the imputation of
partiality in his judgment, had distinctly declared that
all he had observed of the administration of the law in
the diocesan courts had led him to form the opinion that
they were susceptible of very great amendment indeed.
The diocesan court of the Archbishop of Canterbury,
sitting in London, was not included in these strictures of
Lord Denman and, the Bishop of London, but he thought
that after the monstrous course of the monstrous case of

Geils v. Geile," there was but one opinion on the part
of the public as to the administration of the law, and the
conduct of both judge and advocates in that court.
What had been, for example, witnessed in that court in
the course of thut case? One advocate in a case, a lead-
iny doctor in the court, distinctly charging the judge
with partiality in favour of his son, another advocate in
the same court, and in the same case, and adducing evi-
dence of the secure reliance placed upon that partiality
of the judge father by the advocate son!—(Hear, hear.)
He would say nothing, of course, as to the taste of the
squabble to which he referred, but the fact was incon-
trovertible that in this close court, invested with such
enormous and almost arbitrary powers, with its mono-
poly bar, and its monopoly proctors, the irresponsible
judge had immediate relatives both among the bar and
among the body of proctors, and that :such relationship
was a fact at once destructive sot any public confidence
in the tribunal, however high the personal character of
the individual on the bench might he, and undoubtedly
was. The registration of wills, which the ecclesiastical
courts now arrogate to themselves, was susceptible of very
tnateriel improvements. At present there was no decided
ecurity for the wills in the possession of these courts,
nor was there any system at work which gave facilities
to persons seeking the wills to attain a sight of them.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman read extracts from
the testimony of various local registrars, to show the
utter want of any systematic or effective record of these
all-important documents. 'l'he total umouut of fes re-
ceived by these officers was no less than 106,0001., of
which the sum received by the deputy registers was
63,0001., and they formed the main abuse of the eccle
siastical courts, forming as they did the substantial dttfi
culty in the way of reform. Li Canterbury the register
received 7,5081. a year; in Chester, holding a sinecure
office, he received 7,0001.; and in Y0rk,2,6361.—(E1ear.)
Now those were practical grievances, which required a
remedy. and if the Government, instead of declaring, as
they lately did, a disinclination to political changes,
which after all were only a means to an end, would
evince a vigorous determination to provide a remedy
for those grievances, they would do more to extract
the sting from such motions as that given notice of
by the Honourable Member for Montrose than any
declaration, however strong, could effect. The Ho-
nourable Gentleman coucluded by moving—'4 That the
ecclesiastical courts of England and Wales have been the
subject of several public inquiries, which have shown
them to be totally incapable of fulfilling the important
to ctions they affect to exercise. That these courts
have not only to decide questions concerning some of
the niost important civil rights of the subject, but they
exercise a criminal jurisdiction, pretended to be pro
solute anima., which touches his property and personal
liberty. That the law they administer urgently requires
amendment. That their ay stem of procedure is incompa
f 'hie with the effectual attainment of the ends of justice.
but costly. That their
confined existence aerxeisatoetncoenlYis. ililf;jtrieollus' to the subject, and a
scandal to the judicial system of the country."
Sir. G. GREY would neither follow the Hon. Gentle.
man through his details, nor attempt to controvert his
arguments in favour of a sweeping change in the eccle•
siastical courts, because in those arguments he generally
concurred.—(Hear, hear.) He must, however, demur
to the assertion that the Government had shown any
indisposition to deal with the subject. The Hon.
Gentleman had observed that the subject was so full of
detailsand so complicated, that he, as an individual
Member, shrank from grappling with it. But that also
formed an excuse on the part of the Government. He
regretted to find a disposition in the House of Commons to
think that every measure ought to he taken up and disposed
of in one seaiiiin by the Government, because by that
eall'edreopecoansceint t
rtahtee
du(n)nd
ci-
voiduerdse
ant
toetnhtiinogn coofultdhebeiruswe
few measures, and other measures reserved for a future
sessiun. Looking to the complicated nature of this
question, ho must say that he should despair, at this
period of the session at least, of proposing a Bill which
would he likely to pass. He thought the wiser course
would be to reserve it for another session. Ile admitted
that many inquiries had taken place, and that every
one of the C, mmissions or Committees recommended
extensive changes in the nature and jurisdiction of these
courts, and he was was prepared to agree ie substance
with these recommendations. The Bill of 1844 he op-
posed, because it departed in tote from the Bill of his
Right Hon. Friend the Member for Ripun, which pro-
ceeded upon the Commissioners' report of 18°9. He
voted in the minority against that Bill, which was ulti-
mately abandoned. Since the present Government was
iu office toe subject had nut c•caped their attention.
The Attorney-Gerferal had been engaged pre-
paring a Bill, which would have been submitted
in the present session had they the slightest hope
that its details would have received that consideration
which they required. He agreed altogether with the
Hon. Member for Kilmarnock in his main objections to
these courts, to their course of proceeding, and to much
of the jurisdiction they exercised; but he could not
his resolutions, because he could not hold out
agree to
tiny hope of being' able in the present session of apply-
'ins a remedy to the evil. A Bill would be shortly laid
ion the table of the House which he hoped would engage
the attention of the house early next session. Under
these circumstances ho must move the previous question.
Sir R. INGLIS congratulated the Hon. Mover on the
triumph he had achieved without going to a division.
But when the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of
State promised to introduce a Bill on the subject, he
begged to remind him that every such attempt by pre-
eedinfe Governments had failed, and the secret of that
failure was to be found in the proposition of taking
away justice
from the door of every man
concerned, and centralising it in London. To
that he was decidedly opposed, and he hoped that
any attempt on the part of the present Government so
to interfere with the existing system would
fail. He did not mean to say that thatl systemeniedwtahsattl nut
capable of improvement; but he_ utterly ythe lion. that it
such as unmitigated evil
d. He had no objection to
Mem-
ber for Kilmarnock allege
improyement, but he required _
that matters of ecclesias-
ticalt persons who were
discipline should be su
bmitted
ns of those who were
not alien or hostile to the pro essto
to-be tried. Colonel SIBTHORP against
After few words from
the motion, 'VIAL said that his atten-
tion The ATTORNEY-GEN h
b'ect long ore e nes
hid been directed to this su j
that a beemsur might be
inasitae, and his opinion
f
waese courta which would
framed tit'. the reformationtoo
ath
ll
parties.
His obj, ct in
be perfectly satisfactory
h House not to assume that the
rising was to entreat tse
the principle of centralise-
Governthent was pledged
to
Government. They had a
lien in the Bill of the late
ud hesitated to introduce it
measure already prepared,
and heaitatd to introduce it
only because it would prOvte dismission, without aff /rd[
because it would prof)
their being able to carry it
ing the least probability 0
through Parliament in the present session.
Mr. HUME fulls concurred in the resolutions, and
regretted that the Right Hon. BarOnet did not consent
use then his hands when
to their adoption, as it would st
was one which had
introducing his Bill. The al
dmitted ev he had
been not only condsinned but a
.t a scandal
that
it
had a seat in that House ; and eras
should still remain, reed in every word of
Mr. AGLION BY, likewise, ag
t
the resolutions, but ho regretted that hey were to end in
smoke. He did not see what was to
The Government be lost or gained
by avoiding a division on them.
ad-
mitted the four propositions contained in them to be
well founded. If so, why had they nßot brought forward
aronet talked of
a Bill long ago The Right Hon.
in all the measures of &
the inconvenience of ;;introduc
g sion after session had
Government in one session ; buts:ns
e upon this subject ;
elapsed without anything being
such m
ea were
and his feeling was, that unless
Government, they sures
would be
forced upon the attention of Govern
neglected altogether. lled upon to affirm the
Mr. HUDSON said that if ca
bodied in the resolutions
whole of the propositions etn
id member for Kilmer-
proposed by the Hon. and Letarn_•_u
.son)
should not be
neck (Mr. Bouverie), he (N r. 11 d
a s ready to
prepared to do so. At the same time he
ees and w
amendments
admit that some judicious chann
might
be introduced into the ecclesiastical courts. He
ton the s of the
had with unixed satsfact
Hon. andheard
Learnedm A:torney-i
General, and heeech
assured

him, and also the Right Hon. Baronet the Home Secre
tary, that any attempt to remove the custody of wills
from the counties in which the testators had died would
bo strongly resisted by the county with which he was
connected, and every other county in the kingdom. He
had had experience not only in the ecclesiastical but in
the law courts, and he did not think the former more ex-
pensive than the latter; and the best proof of the satis-
faction which the decisions of the ecclesiastical courts
gave was afforded by the paucity in number of the ap-
peals against their decisions.
Mr. W. P. WOOD thought it deeply important to the
best interest of the Church that some steps should be
taken to remove the grievances arising from the mis-
named eealesiaetical courts. The temporal and spiritual
jurisdiction ought to,be separated. As to the retention
of will 4 and documents in safe custody, he knew in-
stances in which alorged will had been substituted for
the original—when a forged manuscript of a baptismal
certificate had been put surreptitiously on the file in
place of the true transcript—these and other instances
he could not name showed that the local custody now in
force was not peel, ct or safe, and that there was a neces•
sity to watch these local jurisdictions.
Mr. BOUVERIE said that after the promise male by
the Right lion. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) to introduce a
Bill on this subject early next session, he (Mr. Bouverie)
would not put the House to the trouble of dividing on
his resolutions.
The SPEAKER then put the question, when the
amendment (the previous question) %sees agreed to.
THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
Dr. BOW RING then rose to submit his resolutions
on the subject of the public accounts. The Honourable
Member said that the resolutions he was about to pro-
pose seemed to him to contain propositions so self-evi-
dent that it was astonishing so many years had been
allowed to pass without the Commons House of Parlia-
ment having directed its attention to the fact, that one-
fifth of the gross revenues of the country were expended
without the previous intervention, control, and autho-
rity of the Commons. If there was any duty more
paramount than another, it was that the representatives
of the people should take care of the money of the
people—should see that it reached the Exchequer---and
before any portion was disbursed, the authority for that
disbursement should be obtained from the House of
Commons.—(liear.) The fact, as shown by documents
now on the table of the House, was, that a sum of nearly
8,000,0001. per annum escaped the control of the Heuse
of Commons, and that since the passing of the Reform
Act no less a sum than from 110,000,0001. to 120,000,0001
sterling had been disbursed without the inter-
fereece of this House to sanction it He had moved
fur, and obtained returns from, lour different, depart-
ments of revenue, showing the amounts which had beep
expended without the authority or interference of Parlia-
ment, and these returns showed the amounts to have
been—in 1837, 6,155.0001.; in 1543, 5,507,0001; in
1846, 6,152.0001.; and in the year ending, sth January,
1847, that expenditure had been 5,904.0001. In the de-
partments of expenditure—for instance the Treasury,
the Privy Council-office, the army, the navy, the ord-
nance, and other similar departments, there had been
expended without any Parliamentary check or control,
in 1837, 1.767,0001; in 1844, 1,999,000 L; in 1846,
1,909,0001.; and in the return for last year it was shown
to have been 1,099,7401. These sums, together with the
gross amounts expended without the sanction of this
House, stood thus:—ln 1837, 6,922,0001.; in 1843,
7,063,0001.; and last year, 7,400,0001. Now, it ap•
peared to him that such a state of things was in-
tolerable. The consequence of this system was,
that neither the First Lord of the Treasury nor the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had a book, or great
ledger of the consolidated account of the nation, which
could show them the correct total receipts and expendi
Lure of the country. This was a dishonour to a great
commercial nation like Great Britain. Even the audit-
office could:not furnish annual accounts, because, instead
of supplying their accounts and vouchers to the audit-
effise within three months after the close of every year,
many public accountants either delayed them for years,
or did net return them at all. For instance, the Shan-
non Navigation Board had not made any return of
either accounts or vouchers for the last ten years, and
the Board of %Yorke in Ireland was almost the same.
Could it then be wondered at that forgeries had been
committed on the public revenue when such a state
of things had been allowed to go on unchecked
year atter year? In the customs, the excise, the
stamps and taxes—in all these departments sums
were retained and expended without the inter-
ference of Parliament! and in the post-office de-
partment, out of a revenue arising from that source
of about 1,500,0001, 1,140,000/. was retained in its pro-
gress to the Exchequer. Again, almost every depart-
ment-had its fee fund, all of which was received and
disbursed without the cognisance of Parliament, and
hence grievous irregularities had grown up. To these
he sought by his resolutions to put an end, because he
was cenvinced that unless the gross revenues went into
or were accounted .for to the Exchequer, no security was
afforded for the fit and proper expenditure of the public
money. This had been recommended in the report of
the Commissioners' of itiquirys of which in 1831 the late
Lord Conglenns had beeii'the head, and therefore the
proposition he (Dr. Bowring) made involved no principle
that was new to the Legislature. He desired to apply
to the public accounts the saute principle which was
adopted by evesy banker,• merchant, and tradesman in
the kingdom. One of the most important duties of
Members of that House was that they should take
cure of the public purse, but they could nut
discharge it white 7,000,0001. of the public money
was allowed to slip through the bottom. lie could not
help thinking that the system of fees was receiving the-
etteitteen of the Government with a view to its aboli-
tion. He knew of no other country in Europe in which
the gross amount of the revenue was not received into
the Exchequer. Tne Hun. Gentleman concluded by
moving :—" That this House cannot be the effectual
guardian of the revenues of the state unless the whole
amount of the taxes, and of various other sources of in-
come received for the public account, be either paid in
or accounted for to the Exchequer. That no depart-
ment of revenue ought to be allowed to stop any portion
of its gross receipts in their progress to the Exchequer
without
the previous authority of Parliament. That no
department of expenditure should be permitted to appro-
priate to the putnic service any other sums than those
sanctioned by previous votes of Parliament, and that all
receipts from sales of stores, or other sources, should be
paid into the Exchequer. That whereas the expendi-
ture of many departments escape Parliamentary
control, either woolly or in part, in conse
quenoc of paying their expanses out of fees or other re-
sources, and of accounting to the Exchequer only for the
balances of such receipts; and in other eases of applying
to Parliatncet fir grants to make up the deficiency of
such fees or other resources, it is necessary, as a check
upon abuse, and a security for the appropriation of the
public moneys, that such receipts should be paid into the
Exchequer, and nut be disposed of witnout the prelimi-
nary sanction of Parliament. That it appears by returns
on the table of this House, that in the year ending the
sth of Jan., 1847, the amount of 5,904,6901. 17s. 4 5-12 d.
was deducted from the gross receipts by the various re
venue departments in its progress to the Exchequer, and
disbursed without the previous sanction of Parliament ;
and by sundry previous Parliamentary returns, that a
sum of about the same enormous amount is yearly re-
tained by the said departments, and is not paid into the
Exchequer, nor subject before its disbursement to Par-
liamentary control. That it appears by the said returns
that in the year ending the sth day of January, 1847.
the sum of 1,099.7471. 14i. 21d. was received by the va-
rious other departments, independently,of Parliamentary
grants or issues from the Exchequer. That the amounts
thus removed from the direct authority and previous
control of Parliament, and which were not paid into the
Exchequer, average nearly seven millions per annum,
and that nearly one-eighth of the gross revenues of the
nation are disposed of with' ut the interference of Par-
liament to sanction their application. 'That such a state
of things is must unsatizfactery, and requires the earliest
attention of the House of Commons.
Mr. lIUME seconded the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admit-
ted that the House of Commons was the proper guar-
dian of the public: purse, and therefore it was that the
items of the public expenditure were submitted to it.
lie did not think that the system of bringing the whole
receipts into the Exchequer in the first instance would
afford greater security than by the officers at the ports,
deducting a part of the money they received for pay-
ments wtiich were to be made from day to day. With
',geed to payments other than the charges of colloction,
he considered that it inade no practical difference
whether they were male before they were received into
the Exchequer or afterwards. With respect to the
other items which the Ron. Gentleman classed together,
they were very various in their stature, and could not he
considered as payment% of the description to which he
alluded. .As to the 262,0001. for the police force, for in-
stance, that was not money coming iu its aid of the public
revenue, but it was a portion of the public revenue paid
in aid of other sums. With regard to stores and other
appropriations for the army and ordnance depart-
ments, the lion. Gentleman would find all of those
sums stated in the eeteuates. However, he had issued
a Treasury minute with respect to those appropriations,
requiring that the money should be first brought
into the Etehequer in the gross. Tne lion. Gentle-
man said that 138,0001. had been paid under the Boars;
of Works its Ireland in aid of the public money. But it
the Hon. Gentleman looked to the returns he would find
that 107,0001. of this sum consisted of loans for the pur-
pose of drainage, which could not bo considered public
expenditure. He admitted that the audit of the Shannon
navigation was in a very unsatisfactory state. Every
effort had been made to reduce it into order, and he
hoped they would succeed in doing so. He agreed with
the Hon. Gentleman, that a large portion of the fee,
ought to be abolished, and he could assure him that the
Government were disposed to make all the practical
reforms in their power.—(Hear, hear.) He should move
the previous question.
Colonel SI BTHORP thought this motion was rather
late in the day. The lion. Member had allowed votes
to pass —as silentio, and now he brought forward resolu-
tions declaring that they ought not to have been passed
at all. Would the lion. Member give practical proof of
his desire for " econirnical reform" by supporting a
motion he was shout to bring forward for the abolition
of the office of the Comptroller of the Exchequer?—
(Hear, hear.) He would also ask the Hon. Member it
he were inclined to abolish the office of 4001. a year just
given to the Hon. Member's son? He thought that Hon.
Members who got these sort of appointments for their
relatives were the last who ought to bring forward reso-
lutions for changes of this description. He should not
support the flint. Member.
Mr. HUME said his objection to the present mode.of
reading the accounts was, that they deceived the public.
They have not before them a true and accurate state-
ment of the sums received and the sums expended. The
present system was kept up to conceal from the public
the real amount of taxation. The Exchequer of Eng-
land was the only one in the world through which all
the moneys of the state did not pass. This was the

fourth time this subject hrd been brought forward ; but
the House never paid attention to matters affecting re
venue. He w.is sorry to say that within five minutes
after he rose the opposite benches there were always
nearly empty.—(Great laughter.)
Sir.G 'CLERK said those who knew little of the sub-
jectiVotild probably imagine from the debate that there
vvas-lio general account whatever of the receipts and ex-
penditure. of the country. Now the fact was that at the
commencement of every year a volume was laid upon
the table giving precisely this information. The Hon.
Member fur Bolton wished that every farthing of money
collected in the provinces and elsewhere ,hould be paid
into the Exchequer in London. He would not hesitate
to say that it such a system were.adopted the annoyance
and inconvenience to our merelietata would be so great
as to render the system quite impracticable. The pre-
sent practice, moreover, was, as it seemed to him, the
simplest and least likely to render the accounts com-
plicated.
Mr. V. SMITH hoped the division would not be
pressed. II it were, the probabilities were that the mo-
tion would be lost, much to the regret of himself and
other Members who found in the resolutions very much
of which they approved.
Dr. BOWRIXG replied, and defended himself from
the charge of Colonel Sibthorp. of having passed by
this question on former occasions. On the contrary,
he had sought every eligible opportunity of bringing
it forward. He did not believe the practical diffi-
culty of adopting this system would be very great. He
would take the opinion of the House cn the first re-
solution. _ _ _

~,..._._. .
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the previous question 54
Against it
Majority against —l
The House then divided on the first resolution, when
:here appeared—
For the resolution
Against it
Majority against ,Mittistt.rA
WH I TSUN TIDE HOLIDAYS

In answer to a question from Mr. HUME,
Lord J. RUSSELL stated that it was his intention to
move, on Friday week, that the House adjourn to the
Thursday tollowin; in Whitson week.
LAND COMPANY COMMITTEE.

Mr. F. O'CONNOR r.-‘se to nominate the following
Committee on the National L4nd Company Wll:—Mr.
E. O'Connor, Lord Ingestre, Viscount Drutnlanrig, Mr.
Henley, Mr. Langston, Mr. G. Langston, Mr. S. Cruw-
,ord, bir. Mansell, Captain Pechell, Mr. Sullivan, Mr.
Meagher, Mr. Devereux, Mr. SchoWield, Sir G. Strick-
land, and Sir B. Hall. The Hon. Member expressed
nis willingness to substitute the natn..s of Messrs. Hay
ter and Wortley for those of Messrs. NI,- a,;her and De-
vereux, but objected to removing Mr. Langston (Mem-
ber for Oxford borough).
Atter some further remarks from Sir G. GREY.
Mr. O'CONNOR said he would have no objection to
strike out the name of Sir Benjau,in Hall, so that Mr.
Langston might remain upon it, in case the Right Hon.
Baronet insisted upon three names being ,truck out.
Sir G. GREY said that his only object was to give
full efficiency to the Committee. He was anxious
that the name of Mr. Heywood should be added, repre-
senting as he did a part of the country which was deeply
interested in the matter.
Sir B. HALL complained that the Hon. Member for
Nottingham had nominated to his Committee seven
Hon. Members who had never previously had a seat in
that House; if the House should approve of his (Sir B.
Hall's) appointment as a Member, he should use his best
endeavours to sift the matter to the bottom, and to let
the public know what the scheme of the Hon. Member

really was. •
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that the Hon. Baronet the
Member for Mar) lebone had pretty clearly shown the
animus with which he would enter into the inquiry, and
he need therefore say no more respecting the observa-

tions which had fallen from him,
Mr. J. O'CONNELL suggested that if Mr. Langston
should be unable to serve, Sir B. Hall should be nomi-
nated on the Committee.
Sir G. GREY having agreed to this, the Committee
was nominated according to Sir G. Grey's proposal,
and the House adjourned at One o'clock.

POLICE INTELLIGENCE.
MANSION-HOUSE.
Thomas Clancey was brought before the Lord Mayor
by City policeman 366, charged with having been one of
the ringleaders in the row in the streets on Monday
night.
The Commissioner of the City Police was on the
bench during the investigation.
The policeman said—At half-past nine o'clock last
night, I was in Fleet-street. and saw between 3,000 and
4,000 people, some with and some without sticks, going
along. The mob gave three cheers for Mr. Mitchel
and the prisoner flourished a stick over his head aHd
asked the people, both on the pavement and in the middle
of the road to join him. The crowd were at the time
four abreast and arm-in-arm. I followed them to Far-
rinedon-Street and to Skinner-street, and they con-
etantlY asked those who were standing still to
Join. The, prisoner said they were going to gain a
victory that night. and that 7,000 were assembled
elsewhere; and he said, " Men and women, I persuade
you all not to go home to-night. We shall gain
I,a victory." I followed them into Stnithfiebe. The po-
*men came out of the station-house there, and some
mob ran away. The prisoner stood still and
itotiriShed.his stick, and called to the crowd to stand
The mob then went up Long-lane, and
The 'petsoner used the same expressions as he went along.
I called the attention of an efficer in plein clothes to
what Wes going on, and teed him to notice the prisoner's
conduct, and we took him into custody. As we were
eking bon to the sta:ton-house he told us we ought to
have-taken him into custody three weeks before ; that
it was too late now, and that it was too far gone ; and
he celled upon the mob not to ruin I him, but to go on
to victory. He had a stick in his hand, and I took it
from him:
The prisoner—Did you ever see me before last night?
Witness—Not to my knowledge.
The prisoner—Do you recollect my addressing two
women? Witness—Yes, after I took you into custody.
The prisoner—Do you think any observations I made
were calculated to influence the people? Witness—
Certainly I do.
Policeman 225—Between 10 and 11 o'clock I was on
duty in Smithfield. I followed the mob up Long-lane
with four other constables, and I saw the prisoner
flourishing a stick, and calling upon the mob to fall in.
He said, •"This is the night we shall gain the victory.
Men, women, and children, stop out all night. Don't
go to bed at all." And he called upon all to join to-
gether and stick together like men. We took him into
custody then.
The LORD MAYOR—Was he sober? Witness—Quite
so; but he appeared to be greatly excited, and he said,
"You ought to have taken me into custody three weeks
ago, before I had done the mischief; there is a cleverer
man than me in prison now."
The prisoner (to the witness)—Have you taken any
notes of these proceedings? Witness—No.
The prisoner—Then it is merely from recollection
you give your evidence ? Witness—Certainly.
The prisoner—Did I offer the slightest resistance
when you took me into custody ? Witness—Not at all.
The prisoner—Can you swear that anything I said was
calculated to lead to a breach of the peace ? Witness—
I can and do swear it. The prisoner, when we took him
in,o custody said to the midi, " Now is your time I" but
they laughed at him and did nothing.—(Laughter.)
There were among the mob many with sticks.
The prisoner—Did you hear me use any expressions
at all likely to cause excitement among the people ?
Witness—Yes, what you said was most likely to lead to
excitement.
Mr. Thomas Woolet, of Cheapside—l heard that a
knob was going along, and I went down Newgate-street
end followed them into Smithfield. At the corner of
Barbican I saw a mob collected, and I went to the as-
sistance of the police. I heard the prisoner say, upon
being apprehended, that he did not care for being locked
up, and that it was a pity the police were so many of
them engaged about hies, for there would be warm work
to do before night.
Three pieces of paper and three halfpence were found
upon the prisoner in the station-house. They contained
these words :
" N.B. 15 minutes is the time allowed in speaking.
"Resolved,--Trutt this meeting being duly impressed
with the utter hopelessitess of the present Government
of this country, and of their cold and callous inclination
to do justice to the people of these countries, we there.
fore call upon the Executive to proceed directly with the
people's memorial to the Queen, being greatly impressed
with the bel,ef that her Most Gracious ,Majesty will not
lend un inattentive ear to the prayers of her devoted and
loyal subjects.
" L ird Juhn says we don't want anything. Contempt
on the minion."
Tile prisoner, upon being asked by the LORD MAYOR
whether he wished to make any observation, said—l
'lave reason, my Lord, to complain of the treatment I
have had fro n the police authorities, and I deny, in the
most positive manner, that I said anything at all calcu-
lated to lead to riot or din urbance, or exchement of any
kind. You may judge of th.; tr,atinent I received, from
the fact that when I entered the station-home one of
the police said," Oh! you have got one of these d— —d
Chartists have you?" That was language which you
avow ought not to have been used by men in such i
situations. As for the meeting of the people last
:tight, I believe it to have in a great measure arisen out
if the assertion of Lord John Russell, that the working .
people did not want reform. It was in consequence
people, o
his gross misrepresentation of the masses of the
in consequence of this statement that they n
re-
quire any change, tteit the crowdsd assembled not
for
m the
purpose purpose of giving the most decided asctrattraldaicuteiomnptteodhtios
Lordship's declaration. It is untrue
excite the crowd. I told them to go home about their
business, instead of exciting them.—(Great laughter.)
As for the possessi-n of that stick, which appears to
be the blackest part of the charge agiinst me, I cars
easily account for that. lam a stick dresser by trade,
and I have several of this sort of unprepared sticks
at home, as you will find if you send to my lodging,
and it is part of my business to carry them. Now,
I think, I have justified my conduct, and I can
safely state that if a person so strongly connected with
rho Government had not made false statements about
the wants and desires of the people there would have
been no meeting, at all. Nuw, the Government have
done very wrong in another respect, too. They have
sent spies in amongst the people; and that practice
never has been known to work any good yet. Now, I
should wish to have the two women to whom I spoke in
the presence of these policemen to give their evidence.
The LORD MAYOR—Very well. I shall postpone the
case, if you please, to give you the opportunity.
The prisoner, upon consideration, proposed an imme-
diate adjudication, which ho said be had no doubt would
be a fair one.
The LORD MAYon-.I 5h311 endeavour to make it a