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Mrty 20th, 1846

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traffic was set aside, then he was quite sure no case of local traffic
had beeri made out.' And then let theta lOok at the' character of the
estimates: Ile had called wltnesiei to show that'l9o,orl. more thitpc
the capital of 660,0001. would by required tc complete t e line. There
was no dbubt a conflict of authority on these points, •iitill, it was S-
matter for their grave. delibetation, as the cogrected results were
given by , experienced engineers,' who were ,:actually en-
gaged in - making a' ' line 'of railway- :tlirough • a ' similar
tract of-country, , Assuming that the one estimate ;was too- 111•411
the other must be, considered too loW; and viewing this' in connexion
with the corrections 'made/ in the traftla tatdea—a.lsturing that both.
ships were exaggerated, let the Committee calmly consider ''. heftier
there was any case Made otit tti'wdrfant the' construction' of such a ~
line; The • Learned . Gentleman Jiavin: impliffed 011 .111:4P I.ints;:'
. proceeded to compare the- portion, of the_ Ilawlek irm .I.mg- ,
holm . 'l6 ' Carlfsle • with - the • ettledbnlagf scheme' • I•44ween
the same - points.. The only . difference : between
~ tin was-
-2% miles; And while the Hawick promoters }vest l liar e
to construct 19 tulles' of i'allway;the Caledonian tv,nl,l only have
to make 1-3 miles of new railing. While ;the N sillies of lehdill was h
4.,.
favour of the Hawick scheme, the rad ients on the C aledonian itiailrOtt.
more than compensate for that diffetehee; for while thy*slinents'oti
:ha former were one In .140 for two - miles, one in 130' for p.m:and'
three-quarter miles, and one in 175' for
.tive and -a half miles, the
heaviest gradient on the falter Was One In 150. The difference in
Point of,eapense would also be one-half less in favour of the C's4dc•
,la_rt
_lOl7. The only point betweeffLangholm and ICarffsle linit the
( uecl lan did not touch was Langton; but he,
sorrier place in
her Majesty's dorntilionS--,-there'•was not tire" meatispuf-gettlng a
single dinner In the place. Sir James (trail:km, submitted the inn in
the place was shut up. lie did not think, therefore, that there was
much necessity for railiva-' acecanniodati6n f r'sucit a- fAice. He'
eould well understand how Gig Duke
property the line ran for .26 miles, and Sir through whose
. foi.
.8
.Thnei44her. James Graham, whose,
estate was intersected 1,. could , Well, undeisiand,
how . they supported that scheme..
utb would .no doubt.,:be,-
an, advantage to ' them, but lie-
prietertrilttial, notwithstaiict:''
t hat the , natiOnal;
tug the high character of 'these pro
capital should not be applied without a prospectOf' rteTurration, and
to the prejudice of the vested Interests Of a line lila
Sanction of the legislature, ••riaerely .to berieflt them 1116-(teteuired tide'
position of.great lauded. proprietors. The learned Ge-U'r 1%,--n'
having amplifledfurther on these points; and recapitulated theiell'
of his address; concluded -by calling on the Committee, to rejeeit'et"'
preamble of the North British (Carlisle Extension), and to pass that h 2
320 of
the Caledoiian (Lankliolm Branch)., • - . - ' .

Mr. TatltoT then replied on the part of the North British line,
and on behalf of the'petitioning proprietors, the Duke of Buceleuch
and Sir jatnei.Graham: He would, in the first place; deal with the
affirmative advantages of the Bill f :r which he appeared before' he
replied .to thei eloquent statement of his Learned. Friend: the
preamble' of the North British (Cat/isle Extension) line set forth that
great public advantages, would. result from the, passinWok the LW
in. question: They prelnited at the opening of 'the Prixeetifilrlt
that IVY 'Would establish a strong. case of Beal traffic,
and ,:.,they had amply redeemed that promise. They
had shown that the district to be accommodated was a rich agricul-
tural iind pastoral district, which was, in regard to the woollen tra ie,
the West Riding of Scotland—a district, moreover, which as yet had
neither canal nor railway accomModation: It had, he submitted,
been proved that the trade of the district wae very great, and that
the only thing that interfered with the ample development of the
district was a cheap alai - abundant' supply of coal, - which - at
present dould not be had; in;the ,manner and at the price
desirable. -By the railways already sanctioned Hetrick had
been piked on the apex of 'a triangle -.- ih•. rcerae, re to accommodation.
It was On the point of:traffic- confluence of the two lines sanctioned
from Edinburgh find Berwick lasi year. This Clearly showed that
this was the naftiral course of traftle;cand all that was required now
.was an ~otitiet
.na, the ,south, .to accommodate the mineral and
agricultural .produce of the - district: 'As tar as evidence
• had been taken, it had 'been s:shoyn. _ that at least one-third
of the agricultural . produce went west and south, and re-
quired the present line of railway • aeconimodation. The proof
was clear that the produce of. Roxburghshire went in large:quan-
tities to Dumfriesshire, and that at least 3,300 tons of grain went
from the former to the latter county for seed and for other purposes.
It :lied also been shown that cattle and sheep were fattened largely
in Itolourglishire, and that they absolutely required a s ,uthern rail-
way accommodation like' the- present- line. They had called the
best witness, in :Scotland 7 ott the' subject, Mr. Scott, who de-
posed that .. be , sent . south to Liverpool and ' Lancashire.
generally abent• 4,000 fat sheep AtarlY, besides a large quantity sent:
from East Lothian, via Glasgow to Liverpool. It had also been proved'
that therewould be large traffic in lean- cattle and e hero that would
pass along.the line, arising from the-large fairs held .in the county Of.
Roxburgh., The evidence of Mr. Scott on this head was fortified by
the evidence of Mr. NelSif; who had -been actually examined en a'
similar point the year befbre by. thb Caledonian Company. lie was,'
therefore, an unimpeachable authority. He (Mr. Talent) had now
'dealt with the agricultural experts; and he would ' now
briefly: call , their attention to the, question ;..0f... imports
„in
. order to effect ;mprovements in the cultivation of land. The area of
country-arourid Hawlek required tiles, or, at- least, clay, to make
them of, and coals by which to burn them; and these would be sop-.
plied in large quantities, and at a cheap rate, from Canobie. It was
also neeeisarY to have railway connexion in order to obtain supplies
of guano anti _other; manure, from the adjoining ports.. Then,- with
regard to the southern liinb of the scheme; they' had the 'evidence Of
-the Duke of Baceleuch and Sir J. Graham;who spae strongly in fa-
vour of the line as a . means of . supplying - the demands
of the agriculturists of 'that part of conk/T. ' So 'Much lot the
agricultural features of the scheme ;,11()W _ for .the those of a mane-
lecturing character. It had been proved that the quantity of foreign
weel.'espeCially Wd-ol 'from Now York, was increasing every 3 ear at
'it awlek,7ahthills° that a large-trade was carried mit in manufac-
tured goods with London. In these days of competition short and
direct routes were indispensable for Lmanufacturers. -it had been
showh. by Sig. Irocjce, i thp Tweed draper, that' no line. of
communication would be tuNisable fpr the distrik, unless it
• connected it in a: direct Manriet with LiverpoOl and Manchester. It
was therefore .abserd, and out of all character, that the inhabitants
of the district should be senrthirtfor' forty Miles round, by way of
Berwick.. Again,' it had. been proved that in Galasbiels and Ilawick
the water-power was almost taken up, aim that :a, cheap tel abun-
dant supply of coal was necessary, in Order to apply s'e:'.:e as a
motive poseer ; <and it had' been further shown thAl5 the `ii Pt' ',,,f
this mineral cottld :4)e -best ,had ream the Canobie ek,ll-11,1,1. Such
was the °Millie— of 'the cast for 'lfi ;line,- preece One a
case of strong local Want for the line in.qaestion. One lonia' kanle
fact in their case was, that of the 4,2 miles in extent, they had DU 37
miles of it the assent of the 'hided proprietors,. while on the whole
they had hut a single mile ofalleeents. The Learned Gentletnan h V-
ing, dwelt on the points-of the case as developed in evidence, went' 4
to reply M the obserVationhnide dtibehalf of the Caledonian Co
.S:
patsy, by Mr. Coettenr. ;With regard to the Caledonian line, 14
must say that ii was ttselesS to the districttliret:,h which the Hai' ck
line • 'passed, and it -would :be worse than useless if it were to
be protected, during all time future, from any line passing hole ,
Carlisle 'to 'Hawick. He submitted the Caledonian had' liii
'estanding before the Committee, and had, only sneaked iit by their
proposition of the Latighohn branch. In do!ng this they submitted •
the prinenile of the Hawlek line, though they stopped shirt of giving
that accommodation to the district which it required. Beyoud the
_portion_of-the Ilawick line.-that comneted With their Langlielai •
branch, they had no locus stencil, and had no right to appear against
the twenty miles from Langholm to Ilawie.k.. lie repudiated
the notion of the Caledonian line talking of vested rights. He hoped
the day had gone by when vested rights, except in well-established
cases, and not on such as the Caledonian had submitted, bad gone by,
and that the public interests were to be sacrificed to the selfish policy
of a grasping company. The Learned Gentleman then went over the
various points adduced io support of the Caledonian. Ile dented that
the present line was put li.rward as a competing line with that,
though he did not deny but that some parties might come
along this one, in preference to the other. But the whole through
traffic was estimated at about 21,0001., and the utmost that might
be taken from it could not be more than 4,0001. or 5,000/. ; yet on
the bare contingency of that they Were led to believe that the
Caledonian was a company that could be extinguished by the
slightest blow. Then they were assailed that the North British
Company would not have enough of ti title to support their line,
but he submitted that was no leteiness of the Chairman
and directors of the Caledonian l.'+ to ~in 3•, though he admitted
it was a subject for the consideration of the Committee. His
clients had produced along the ratite of th I line witnesses who knew
the wants of the district 'well, while those called on the other side,
with the exception of that notable member of the fourth estate, Mr.
Steele, who had all along been a partisan of the Caledonian, had no
local connexion with the district whatever. He submitted: that
manufacturers and agriculturists, who knew all about the district
and mineral agents, residing at Canobie, were witnesses more to be
reli• d on than Mr. Pare, who had been employed to get up a case,
and the other parties, who had merely run over the district once or
twice, and who had no knowledge of the real wants and traffic
of the country with respect to the Canobie coal-field. Evidence had
been clearly 'given to show that there were ten seams of coal, of
which but three were now working ; that the supply was most
ample ; that so far from coals from Berwick suppb+nting Canoble
coal at Hawick, it was mole likely that Canobie coal would go to
Berwick, en account of the superiority of the article. All the Com-
mittee could do on this point was to compare the one evidence with
the other, and judge between them. On the passenger traffic it was a
remarkable fact, that where these estimates could be corrected by way
bills, it was found to agree in the main With the other side, as
shown in the evidence of that euphoneous pair, Messrs. Piper and
Tyther : and it was only when the romantic calculations of 31r. Pare
were introduced that a discrepancy was made oat. On the engi-
neering differences in the estimates he would set the established
character of Mr. Miller against the evidence on the other side, with
the high observation that Mr. Locke, in his original esti-
mate, set down the Caledoaian line at, 2,100,0001. Taking
away 130,0001. for plant, and dividing the remainder of the
number of miles, 'the amount per mile would allow actually less
than the estimate of Mr. Miller. This would show how the
matter stood between the rival engineers, and how much' this alleged '
discrepancy was worth.. The Learned Gentleman then addressed
himself to the Langholm branch and the junction at the station,
with reference to the evidence of SirJ. Graham, that the line
ought to run upon the south bank of the Esk, and that with respect
to the junction at Carlisle, the proinoters of the Bill were willing to
leave the matter to the adjudication of the Board of Trade. The
Learned Gentleman concluded by strongly Impressing on the mind of
the Committee the necessity of passing time preamble of the 8111.
The room was then cleared for a division.

IMPORTANT DECISION.
After an absence of about half an hour the parties were e.ll!ed in
when _ _ .

The CHAIRMAN said the decision of the CoMmittee wag, that the
preamble &the Bill of the Langholm branch of the Caledonian Rail-
way had not been proved; also that the preamble of Ihe North
British (Carlisle Extension) had not been proved. They, however,
reserved that portion of the North British preamble that related to
the small branch to the Canobie coal-ileid, so as to ascerta'n whether
by the forms of the House they could retain it, so as to form a junc-
tion with the branch of the Dumfries line. Practically, however, the
decision was the rejection of boils schemes at present before the Com-
mittee.
The consideration of the Canobie Branch and the clauses of the
Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle 13111 were adjourned till Monday week.

alt Our xvn.

MANCHESTER AND SOUTHAMPTON AND
atorzszlr AND nEnimanGE nnraccii
(SOUTH—WHSTEI 1V).
The Committee met at one o'clock this aIb:MOW, the Hon.
E. Yorke in the chair.

RorasEY amp REDIMITIGL HILAIIOII.
Before the transaction of any business, the Chairman ordered the
room to be cleared. On the admission of strangers,
The CHAIRMAN (addressing Mr. Mill, who appears for this branch)
said, owing to the course of examination pursued yesterday, some-
thing like an imputation was cast upon the Great Western on ac-
count of some discrepancy with respect to the charges for goods and
passengers. It was the wish of the Committee to hear some evi-
dence on the part of the South Western to explain this
discrepancy, and a witness was to be examined this morn-
ing on the subject. That was the first point ; and the
Committee having considered the two Bills, as far as they were able,
had come to the conclusion that the promoters of the Manchester
and Southampton should open their case, and that a general reply
should be given to the promoters of the Romsey and Redbridge
branch. _

IW:if= said the promoters had complied with the wishes of the
Committee, and witnesses were in attendance to give evidence.
examined.M. rC. S tolivien,staihde
wtrhaffienethe manager of the Great Western, was then
examined them. lie had a copy of
billsofthe passenger issued
darbly
about
wereprintatbedleshise
the Ist of January, 1841. He was not sure whether the line was
opened to Northern or Southampton at that period ; but the distance
between London and Southampton, as stated in the bills of that
period, was seventy-six miles and three-quarters, but the goods-
traffic distance seventy-six miles. Winchfleld was looked upon as
half-way between Southampton and London, and was considered
thirty-eight miles from Southampton. The time bills were published
about every month, and little variation was made in them, except
in May and in the fall of the year. He could undertake to
say that no change took phile€ in the bills between May and
September 1844. By the May bill of that year the dis-
tance was set down as seventy-seven miles and a quarter,
and the distance from Southampton to Winchfleld was thirty-nine
miles, or from Southampton to London seventy-seven miles and a
quarter. By the bills of January and March, 1845, the distance
charged for passengers between Southampton was forty miles, and
for goods thirty-nine. The abatement for carrying twenty tons for
forty miles was thirty per cent., and for thirty-nine 20 per cent.,
making a difference of 10per cent. They
w were entitled
to p
charge for forty miles, if the distance as a fraction
over thirty-nine. Nothing, however, was gained by this, as it had
nothing to do with the charges. The line was, however, re-surveyed
last year, and this seeming discrepancy was rectified, and the fares
for both passengers and goods were only charged for the net distance.
Mr. Davis —Then the passengersby the Parliamentary train should
pay Id. more than they do, and the Company gain 10 per cent. by
having charged 40 miles for passengers, and only 39 for goods ?
The witness said under the old time bill refared to
by Mr. Davis that was actually the case on the face of
It, but the company really derived no advantage from it.
between Winchtleld and Southampton. Coals taken from the wharf
at Nine Elms to Southampton were conveyed at 2%d. a ton, but 3d.
a ton was charged from Southampton.
Examined by Mr. HaTirtaarox—The distance In 1845 was found
to be 78. The heavy traffic of all kinds did not exceed five tons a
week between Winchfield and Southampton. The charges for con-
veying coals were regulated by the large quantity sent from London,
and the small quantity sent from Southampton. The arrangement
made with the dock proprietors at Southampton was made
or tin purpose of improving the trade of (Ram= «
. , Rom

_ ~
~,,,, . GEO XVIII. . ~.
112t..TEIR. .ARTD :irrrsTrativ 1tax.41,',14T45.Y.
B. Deuison, EB,J., dig rintin. -- - .
• 4.;,Tones; mi.;vieciiresitlentofih,,'Cllanslieritalbeirimeret . c •,...---
sey,,wits examined: on
.14 half of..,life,irlreat'l;&4tere Uell--4-.._,.!,-, 1,,,t
his evidenes was riot of a' natiire ',yeti 1,0 berietit -the :,,outit-}1
cenlP4*.; 4ilie;principli pat is.f--Ttis; ivittenei; 'ttViit lii shojis"- IQ
t a
convestienceo milt.' ay; from W7eftmeo.th ift trit, tv,rth,rn, western;
and eastern parts of tile conntric 'ih'crei',4l-oxfanitmtion, how,!ver, hi
tiiitnittoil, ihaP"mai- "Pie -lailiravt;lw-iire lit'-presem i',,,striiete.-1 &Om
which he eou'.l lierli-e any'. edirallla',,,*:
Capt. 11'htte, coining ~kii,r 4,1* ft 1404i11-V,...`“''' 't ' .•
, Se.lthamPton
and. 41, r,oy, proved the ".-g 14ileriorit,ic bi ti,e• ..•
l'ixt...nelitli
as 4-t.barbour -ibr tiaii tr,t4aoi t;i4 iglablnei i.' ~ ~, .
..;,r. I)eveldsh Nl:lill,Xt exulnlll,..- -In t'
,-Iminver,------------ ----, -
TIIC etiAlltMAN lilllf<Bl thilt /IK7i-44},,111.,•, , • 1 ~ 1,,.) :, ,I. woit as
rink IfirifewCityr:ot Iti a 1.; \ ..,F± wit,. ',-,.. ,:1 . • ~; -. , ~- ~ . ;. ~. i!., (3 ri- at
Western.
.
Mr. Cullen am:l.:kir. 1--,,,:-11-4, 1 1.,1. ~ Western COMpany. ~•rs .. , ; ~. , , , , ILe s3utk-
-::
.. .
' At the cone:itßion or ot- otc ~..„:,..—•„. , x ~o, :•;i:-,:..
t ;,. , . ~::,`AN
rifeic:d the roOni -1,,u; ~.: ~.,1.
.thi ate partic-A being- ro-nitini t:P,I, it ,• -;TAIItkt.AN ANiltrittit. (A tittli
the (ontinittee hail el c.,.1r0k1 /Lim .i. In tinn., .- -io the p:, rties tl; itt I lir y
Sholll,l eadeal-onr-tc. a.seertailt -Whether it would nct 'Li, ra'aelicAMe,to
i (4n4trtia theline hdtc.-teri iClik•lt aiiii Yeovil in, sin,:, a mantle:- that it
11 intett`suit WI h gaiir,s: TfAr.Nrigll.23 it' tit the 'siniae time tc, he •zti,.:
thictly-widerstood, that tho'opitaion of, the r:-A-..mittee true not to be
eoniiiiered as fa-vim:able to caber one ;metre or oti,,,
3', Tt e-C4 Rim Wee tain: A ijoinit4 1111, Votie ay 'week,

, ,Namtnal

But an alteration had been made which equalised the expense to s'
a ton at both docks and pier ; but the carriage of goods to and from
the pier wax 2s. 6d. more than the do.,ks.
John Davis re-extimined--The charge of carrying 10 tons front
Southampton to Winclateld was former,. 2d. 16s. after deducting the
" rebate" of 30 per cent., but now 31. 14s. 2d. was charged, thus 'a-
ccessing the expense to las. 2d.
After a few observations from ifr. Davis, the case of the oppontitS
of the Bill was closed.
DIANCEIZSIWIt AND SOIPTEADTIiTON..
The formal proofs .in . tlris.Dlli were then iulduced, and the Com?,
mittee adjourned till Thursday next, at twelve o'clock, when 11r,
Seti,esut Wranghain will open the case of the promoters.