The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-31 00:00:00

at the root of all the social evils of Ireland.
The dissatisfaction which existed was less with
respect to the relationship between landlord and tenant
as the relationship between tenant and labourer, and it
was the situation of the labouring population, who were
now subjected to such great hardships, that called for
the special attention of the House.—(Hear, hear.) (The
Right Hon. Baronet referred to a communication from
Mr. H. I. Porter, contained in the report of Lord Devon's
Committee, to show that the great evil of Ireland was
attributable to the relationship between tenant and la-
bourer. The extract read by the Hon. Baronet went to
show that the average rent paid by tenants in an estate
in the north of Ireland was B‘.. 2d. an acre, while that
paid by the labouring people to the tenants was 51. an
acre, and in some cases us high as 101.) The law, there-
fore, with respect to tenant and labourer required very
great revision in order to remedy the monstrous and cry-
ing evils to which it had given rise. With respect to
the poor•law in Ireland he was ready to admit that it
was defective, and if it were the wish of Irish Members
there would be no objection to grant a Committee at an
early period next session to consider the subject.—
(Hear, hear.) The Howe would then be in possession
of all the inturnaation that was required, and would be
better able to amend the law. Every one knew the
difficulties the Government had to contend with in
coping with the famine. Next there w'as the Coercion
Bill, which was miscalled, sinca none of the loyal
subjects of the Crown in Ireland could complain of
its influence.—(Hear, hear.) To show its necessity
and that it was not altogether a failure, he
quoted the following facts, namely, that the num-
ber of outrages in Dublin in December, 1847, was 2,162.
whilst in the succeeding June they had sunk to 1,138;
thus showing its efficacy and its necessity. He
contended that Roman Catholics had had their
fair share of the public offices of Ireland.
He knew of no one who had the interest of the Roman
Catholics more at heart than Mr. Redington, and in
whom the interests of the members of that religion could
be more safely entrusted. Then there were Mr. Monahan,
the Attorney-General, and Mr. Baldwin, who were Roman
Catholics, who held office. The charge was, therefore,
unfounded. He agreed with the Secretary of State fur
the Home Department with respect to what he had
said about the Irish Church, or rather the Ecclesiastical
Establishment in Ireland. The object of the Government
was to put all religions in Ireland on a perfect footing of
equality, and thereby to prevent heartburnings—(Hear)
—by doing this they believed they would promote in a
great degree the happiness of 'the whole people of Ire-
land. He regretted, and felt ashamed, that a portion of
the press of Ireland had so grossly maligned his Noble
Friend Lord Clarendon as it had; for if ever there was
a man who entered upon his task heart and soul, and
with an earnest desire to promote the social welfare of
the people, it was that Noble Lord; he felt it his duty to
give his vote against the motion of the Hon. Member for
Rochdale.

Mr. F. O'CONNOR ascribed the whole of the dis-
tress of Ireland to the neglect of the landlords, and
to the non-performance of their duties : hence they
were always coming to the House for measures to
enable the Government to do that which they had neg-
lected to do themselves.—(Hear, hear.) Ho asked the
Government if, when other countries were advancing,
Ireland should be allowed to retrogade? The Noble Lord
last night stated that early marriages were the cause of
some of the misery of Ireland. Why, would the prevention
of such marriages prevent the increase of that popula-
tion?—(Laughter.) He complained that he had never
heard two Irish Members agree as to the exact nature
of the ameliorative measures which Ireland required.
Mr. A Stafford and Mr. Newdegate rose together,
and remained standing for some time; but the latter
having first caught the Speaker's eye, Mr. Stafford at
length gave way.
Mr. NEWDEGATE—He did not think it necessary
to allude in detail to any of the propositions which had
been made in the course of the debate for the modifica-
tion of the Act of Union, because he believed those
propositions to be visionary and impracticable, but he
felt himself called upon to make some reference to the
manner in which various Hon. Members had proposed
to deal with the Church Establishment in Ireland. The
Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne) had spoken
of that establishment as of a nuisance, and had declared
his willingness to go to the hustings on the question of
its abolition. Ile (Mr. Newdegate) was one of that
Honourable Member's constituents, and he could assure
the Honourable Gentleman that he would find it a seine-
what more troublesome matter than he seemed to ap-
prehend to go to the hustings on any such question. He
for one felt it to be his duty solemnly and emphatically
to protest against the language which had been used
with reference to the Irish Church by the Members of
her Majesty's Government in the course of that debate.
The Right lion. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home
Department was cautious and circumspect in his selec-
tion of language when speaking on this question, but
nevertheless it was quite evident that what he meant and
intended was the suppression of the Irish Church.
Sir G. GREY explained. What he had said was
simply this, that he concurred with the Hon. Member
for Limerick (Mr. Monsell) in hoping that the day was
not distant when it might be possible to propose some
measure which would put an end to the evil of having
the clergy of the great majority of the people depending
for their maintenance on sources such as those to which
the Hon. Member for Middlesex referred.—(Hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE, amid vehement cries of " Di-
vide," continued to observe that although the members
of her Majesty's Government had treated the Church of
Ireland as the great grievance of Ireland, there were in-
dependent Irish Members in that House, even of the
Roman Catholic persuasion, who regarded it in a totally
different light. The Hon. Member for Longford had
acknowledged the utility of the Irish Church, and paid
a handsome tribute of praise to the piety, learning, and
acquirements of the Irish clergy ; and the Hon. Member
for Youghal, who was, as every one knew, an ardent
Roman Catholic, spoke in a similar strain, and declared
that he did not believe that the Irish Church was re-
garded as a grievance even by the Catholics of Ireland.
—(Shouts of " Divide, divide," and general indications
of impatience.) Let it go to the world that Irish Mem-
bers had so spoken of it, and that when an English
Member got up to defend it from the attack of another
English Member, the House endeavoured to put him
down by the force of clamour.—(Divide, divide.) The
Church was the key-stone of that arch which united the
two countries.—(Tremendous shouts of " Divide.") He
should be sorry to move the adjournment of the House,
but he feared he should have to do so. Why should any'
Member of that House, be he Minister or not, presume
to speak of the Irish Church as the upas tree of Parlia-
meat ?—(Derisive cheers.) It was a blessing to Ireland,
and it had the strongest claims on the reverential regard
of the great majority of the English people.—( Uproar.)
To the majority of the English people he was content to
leave the issue.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I fear that the Hon. Mem-
ber has mistaken the members of the Government, and
me in particular, on a point on which it is very desirable
that we should not be misunderstood. He says that the
members of the Government have represented the Irish
Established Church as a grievance, and went on to repre-
sent that we had even attacked the conduct of the clergy
of that Church.

Mr. NEWDEGATE—Ob, no, I did not say so.
Lord J. RUSSELL—WeII, I am happy to find that I
misunderstood the Honourable Member. With respect
to the conduct of the clergy, I have only to offer unaf-
fectedly the tribute of my admiration to their virtues
and acquirements. Nor did I ever say that I looked
upon the Established Church as a grievance. What I
said was that I thought the endowment of the clergy
of the minority of the people, while there was no endow-
ment for the clergy of the majority, was a great subject
of complaint amongst the people of Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) To this Sentiment I have repeatedly given ut-
terance, and I adhere to it now as firmly as ever.—
(Hear, hoar.) In conclusion, I have only to remark,
that I consented that this debate should be adjourned
until this day in order that the Irish Members might
have an opportunity of speaking, and I trust that they
will aid me in carrying out the understanding with
which we originated the debate, by assenting to a divi-
sion with as little delay as possible.
Mr. REYNOLDS rose amid general calls for a divi-
sion. He wished to correct an error into which the Hon.
Member for the county of Warwick had fallen. That
gentleman had talked of the Hon. Member for Longford
(Mr. R. M. Fox) as though he were a Catholic Member,
and 'quoted from him accordingly. It was right, how-
ever, that the Honourable Member for Warwick should
know that the Honourable Member for Longford, so far
from being an orthodox Catholic, was a highly orthodox
Protestant.—(Laughter.) The Honourable .Gentleman
had also fallen into an error in supposing that all .persons
who were Repealers in Ireland were Catholics.
Mr. NEWDEGATE—I never said so.

Mr. REYNOLDS had thought that the Honourable
Member had said so, or at least said something tanta-
mount to it; but he supposed he had misunderstood him.
But the Hon. Member had, at all events, fallen into a
grievous error in supposing that the Honourable Member
for Longford was either a Catholic, or a high authority
as to the feelings of Catholics in Ireland, with respect
to the Church question. The Honourable Member had
referred to another Irish Member, who was not an Irish
Member at all—(Great laughter)—the Honourable and
Learned Member for Youghal (Mr. Anstey). It was
true that that Honourable and Learned Gentleman was
a Catholic, but he knew very little indeed about the
feelings of Catholics in Ireland. He was a convert.
He had very recently renounced what he now called
the errors of the Established Church; but whether his
conversion to the Church in which he (Mr. Reynolds)
' had the blessing of being borne, was or was not an ac-
quisition to that church, was a question which ho would
not undertake to decide.—(Laughter.) It had often been
said that the House was ignorant of the real state of Ire-
land. He had always known it to be true, but he could
never have supposed that it could be true in so wholesale
a sense as that that House could for one moment seri-
ously believe that the Irish people did not regard the
Church Establishment as a grievance.—(Hear, hear.) If
they were to believe the Hon. and Learned Member for
Youghal, indeed, they would find it no difficult matter
to credit that the Irish people, so far from looking on it
as a grievance, regarded it as a national blessing.—
(Laughter.) But he entirely denied that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman was a faithful interpreter of the Irish
people on the question. If the Irish people should ever
bring themselves to regard the Church Establishment
otherwise than as a grievance and an injustice, there
would be but little chance of that prediction being rea-
lised, which bad been uttered some years ago by his im-
mortal fellow-countryman, Tommy Moore:--
"As long as Irelarid shall pretend,
Like sugar-loaf turned upside down,
To stand upon the sharper end,
So long shall live great Rock's renown;
As long as Popish spade and scythe
Shall dig and cut the Sassenach's tithe,
And Popish purses pay the tolls
On heaven's road for Sassenach souls;
As long as millions shall kneel down
To ask of thousands for their own,