The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-27 00:00:00

PROPERTY TAX.

Mr. G. ROBINSON then rose t., bring forward his mo•
tion. In doing so, he felt convinced of his ina,,ility to
in•roduce the important subject of which he had given
notice, and should shrink from the task, did he not con-
sider it his duty to bring the subject forward. Hon.
Members were to be found in the House of all diversity of
opinions. There was hardly a shade of opinion which did
not find its representative; and there were few subjects
on which they all could concur. On one suhj.ct, however,
they did agree—namely, that in order to afford relief to
the people, it was necessary to diminish taxation. Go-
vernment had accordingly been assailed on all sides to
remit taxes. The Government met the complaining—
and be admitted with great truth—by saying that
it was necessary to maintain the national faith, and
to support the establishments of the country, which they
could not do if those taxes were abolished. The conse-
quence had been that taxes had been raised in many in-
stances in order to meet the exigencies of the Govern-
ment, or at all events had been but in very few in-
stances remitted. For the three years during which he
had bad the honour of sitting in that House, he bad paid

considet able attention to the subject of taxation, and the
conclusion to which he had arrived was, that as no great
amount of taxation could be remitted, the only way in
which relief could be communicated to the labouring
classes, was by a commutation of the taxes. He was
aware, that unless he could make out a strong case for the
adoption of his opinion, he could not expect his Majesty's
Government to wake so extensive a change in the whole
system of taxation. He could assure the Noble Lord,
that in bringing forward the suggestion, he was satisfied
of its expadiency, and he pledged himself to prove to the
Noble Lord, and to the House, that an absolute necessity
did exist for making the change which he advocated. He
did not make the suggestion as the result of his own opi-
nion alone; he was supported in it by some of the ablest
statesmen who had ever sat in that House; and he be.
lieved he should he able to show that the Noble Lord
(Althorp) himself had at one time concurred in the pro-
priety of the adoption of some such measure as that
which he advocated. He would not detain the House
to dilate upon the distress at present existing in the
country. They had heard those distresses most ably
stated on a former evening, when the Honourable
Member for Birmingham brought forward his motion on
the state of the nation ; and they were such as were well
calculated to harrow up the feelings of those who heard
them. He could not, however, help admitting freely, that
the statement made by the Hon. Alenaher was greatly
overcharged, and that his eloquent descriptions were no,
borne out by the facts which he had adduced. Y t
enough it p aced then, and was known to all who consi.
sered the situation of the country, that such was the
wretched condition of tie labouring classes, that it he-
came the imperative duty of the Muse to take the subject
into its most attentive consideration, in order that by their
collective wisdom they might endeavour to devise some
remedy for an evil which threa•ened destruction and ruin
to the whole nation. Time Noble Lord had been assailed
by every class for th repeal of the taxes which pressed
peculiarly upon itself. Ile had, within the last week,
been waited on by several deputations of mercantile men,
who prayed for the repeal of the house and window taxes
and the other assessed taxes. And in the same manner he
had at other times been assailed by those interested in
agriculture, for the repeal of the malt and hop duties. He
(Mr. R mbinson) thought that the Noble Lord had acted
prudently in abstaining from making any promises of a re-
mission of taxation, and, indeed, in having declined to give
any information as to his financial plans, till after the E mster
recess, when he should be able to state fully the plan which
the fi ances of the country would enable him to adopt. It
might then be asked why he should hring forward such
a inetien—why not leave it to Government to propose it
if they thought t at it was fi ting it should be adopted.
His at s•ser was, that it was nut to be expected that Go-
vernment should propose such a commutation of taxes as
he then proposed. Were the Government to propose the
adoption of a property tax in lieu of their present taxes.
it would be an avowal on their part of the inability of the
country to support its institutions according to the press nt
cyst-m, and that in fact the whole system was rotten to the
core._( Hear, hear.) He therefore did not blame Minis-
ters that they did not originate such a motion—he should
not even blame them if they opposed it until such time as
it should appear by a resolution of the majority of the
House, or even by the expressed opinions of a respecssble
numerical minority_(H ar, hear)—that such a memsure
o as necessary. If such an opinion were once expressed,
no Government could withstand that and the strong feel-
ings known to be entertained on the subject throughout
the country; and the result would be, that mhe Noble
Lord would he forced to change the whole financial system
of the kingdom. He (Mr. Robinson) had stated on a
former occasion that great distress existed in the country,
and he had then, as now, to complain that such inquiries
were coldly received by the House, and a refusal given to
all inquiry on account of the exaeg.rated statements in
which Hon. Members indulged. It was to he regretted,
that on account of such statements the House should re-
fuse to inquire into the real distresses which were known
to exist, and that the country should be disappointed on
such an account of the redress which it required and ex-
pected. The people said—" Will you grant an inquiry
to ascertain the real amount of our distress, and promise
a remedy ?" He hoped th mt the House would do
so. At all events, he trusted that they would endeavour
to trace the evil to its source. It was idle to say that
there was no remedy. It only required firmness and
promptitude on the part of the Government, and patri-
otism on the part of the Members of that House, to dis-
cover it. The people did not complain of the taxes
themselves, so much as they complained of the injustice
with which they were laid on. They complained of the
inequality of the system, which pressed upon the indus-
trious classes with undue severity,and bowed down these
who contributed most to the support of the country.
He thought that there was an easy remedy to be found
for that evil. He thought that a commutation of the
taxes, and the substitution of a property-tax in lieu there-
of, would in a great measure effect that remedy. And
if it were adopted, it would prevent the country being
ruined by a system of taxation, which, if persisted in.
would lead them into diffisulties from which the Go•
vernment could never expect to extricate them. He
would read an extract from the speech of a late eminent
statesmen, whose opinions had always. as they deserved,
met witn every consideration from the House ; he meant
that of Mr. Huskisson, as it showed what his opinions on
time subject then before them was. When the motion was
brought forward on March, 18, 1830. for an inqury into
the state of the na-ion, he said—" I wish for a much greater
reduction of taxation. This reduction is rendered
necessary by a variety of circumstances. First, there is
no other country in Europe, where so large a proportion
of the taxes is levied on consumption. In the second
place, in no other country in the world does there exist
so large a m mss of wealth, belonging to that class who do
not directly employ it in bringing forth the produce of
labour. In the third place, in no other country in the
world is so large a proportion of the aggregate public re-
venue mortgaged to pay public incumbranees, thereby
rendering it unwise not so to distribute taxation as to di.
minish the weight on that mortgage. In time fourth
place, from no other country in the world does so large a
proportion of the wealthy, but not productive class, emi-
grate to spend their incomes in other countries. It has
been said, that if absentees were charged with taxes, they
might take away from the country, nut only the increase
of their capital, but the capital itself. Most of these in-
dividuals, however, are so circumstanced as to render that
impracticable. It has also been said, that an absentee tax
is more fitted for a time of war than for a etre of peace.
I am of the opposite opinion. I have dwelt upon these
subjects at greater length than I had intended ; but I have
done so because I have thought it my duty as an uncon-
nected Member or Parliament. to state what are my views re-
specting them. I know how difficult it would be for Govern.
went to carry their views into effect. I know what mistaken
notions various interests would take up concerning them All
I can say is, that I have suggested propo.itions which I most
sincerely believe would, if adopted, be beneficial to the coun-
try. I do not complain that others do not take the same
view that I take; but, if at any future day his Majesty's
Government should entertain the same views, t ey shall
have my most cordial support, not only in smoothing the
difficulties which may present themselves to the carrying
their views into effect, but in conciliating the feelings of
all who might be averse to their adoption," He had thus
shown that the opinion of that great man had led him to
the same conclusion to which he (Mr. R.) had arrived—
namely, that from the decreasing capital of the country.
and the diminishing wages of the working classes, it ware
impossible that the present system of taxation could stand,
and he concluded by expressing hie willingness to support
the Government in any future period, should they enter-
tam the same views which he Now he (Mr. R.)
would ask, what had happened since 1830, to show that
there was less ground for such a measure at present than
there was in 1830? Had the state of the country not got
worse ?—( Heir.) Had the state of the working classes
not declined ?—( Hear, heir.) Had the distress not in-
creased? Had our burdens—our navy and our army—
(inctuding our dead weight) not increased ? And were
not the people less aide to pay those additional burdens
now than they were then? He said that they were. That
was the real state of the case, and it was useless to evade
or conceal it. Taney ought, therefore, at once, seri-
, ously to inquire into the causes, and devise remedies for
suet, evils. The inquiry ought not to be delayed. Time
was pressing; and the longer the delay, the greater the
diffisulty in which they would find themselves involved.
He did not mean to say that the country could not stand,
or could nut pay the necessary expenses for its government
and defence. Far from it. He merely said, that a change
of system was necessary to enable it to do so. He would
not go into long details on the subject; but he would cite
one or two individual cases, which would show the House
the deplorable state to which the poor were reduced, and
the necessity there was for some relief being extended to
them. He found that the poor rates in England and
to 8,339,0871. ; and for the year ending
Wales amounted, for the year ending on the 25th of
1832, to 8,683,4611. Increase,
.Bt,h3bleoinfgsatraevheirage of 4 per cent. He would ask
3oil:n4italtilhac3eht;d24ilsld not show the condition of the country was be-
coming progressively worse ?—(Hear, hear.) '1 he only
three English counties where there had been a decrease in
the poor rates, were Bedford, Cornwall, and West-
moreland. The greatest increase was in the counties of
Somerset, Southampton, Surrey, and Sussex, where they
had increased from 7 to 8 per cent. In Wales there bad

been a decrease in Carnarvonshire of 2 per cent. only.
In Anglesea and Cardiganshire the increase had been 9 per
cent., and in Glamorganshire II per cent. He found,
too, that since 1825 there bad been a gradual increase in
crime in the country, and there could be no doubt that
the increase of crime was the effect of misery and priva-
tion. The number of criminal prosecutions in Eng-
land and Wales, in 1825, was 14.437 ; in 1826,
16,164 ; in 1827, 17,904 ; in 1828, 16.564 ; in 1829,
18,675 ; in 1830, 18,107 ; in 1831, 19,64.7 ; and in
1832, 20 829—50 that there was a gradual increase of
more than 50 per cent. in seven years.—(Hear, hear.)
He found, too, from a Parliamentary paper, that the
amounts paid into the saving banks in England and
Wales, from the 28th Jan., 1832. to 9th Feb., 1833,
was 761,3681., and the amount paid tout 1,261,118/.
That w.s an excellent criterion of the real state of the
country, and an undoubted proof that the distress was
great, and was increasing; and he thought that Govern.
ment could nut avoid inquiring into the causes, and de-
vising a remedy for it. He admitted that it undoubtedly
was the duty of Government not to take too gloomy a view
of the state of the country, or to alarm the people none-
cesserily ; but it was likewise their .duty not to conceal
truth, or, when distress did really exist, to attempt to
palliate it. He trusted, too, that the House would net
endeavour to evade or postpone the consideration of it.
He large, d of them not to think that, by postponing or
evading the consideration of it, it would come round, or
that the di-tress wan merely temporary. He admitted
that, Burins the spring, there might be rather more work
than usual ; but he hoped Hon. Members would not de.
ceive themselves by thinking that such temporary employ-
ment betokened any permanent improvement. He was
sure that, as soon as the spring work was over, the
country would fall into its wormer sluggish stave, and that
if they did not take means to relieve the labouring classes,
they would find the same distress to prevail as formerly.
It was impossible that the people, whether they belonged
to the trading, manufacturing, shipping, farming, or co-
lonial classes—it was impossible, he said, for them to en-
dure the weight of the taxes. He would, therefore, ask the
Government what they intended to do towards their relief.
He believed that the Government were disposed to give
every relief in their power; and he admitted the difficul-
ties with which they had to labour in affording that re-
lief. He (Mr. Robinson) had supported the motion of
the Hon. Member for Birmingham on a former evening,
hut he could not but give credit to the Government for
the motives which induced them to oppose the motion.
The opinions of the Hon. Member for Birmingham were
so well known on cone subjects, and those sentiments
were so mixed up with his motion, that the Government
could not support the one without in some degree recog-
nising the others, and be therefore admitted that they were
justified in having opposed the whole motion. He (Mr
Robinson) hardly expected the support or the Govern-
ment in favour of his motion: but whether they decided
on supporting or opposing it, he was determined to divide
the House upon it. The Right lion. Gentleman oppo-
site (the present Vice-President of the Board of Trade)
had, in March, 1830, :submitted a motion to the House,
which was in substance the same wiih that which he
(Mr. Robinson) now proposed. That Right Hon. Gen-
tleman moved—" That a Select Committee be appointed
to inquire into the expediency of snaking a revision of the
taxes, so that the means of paying the sums voted by the
House, and all ether charges for the Fluidic service, m,y
be provided fur with as little injury as practicable to
the industry and improvement of the country." The
R ght Hun. Gentleman proposed a revision of the
taxes. He (Mr. Robinson) now proposed a com-
mutation of them. The Noble Lord said—" I cannot
give up taxes—l must meet the necessities of the
country." He (Mr. Robinson) did not ask him to give
up taxes, and he disapproved of the system into which
Hon. Members had fa.len, of bringing forward motions
for the repeal of millions of taxes, which they knew
could not be dispensed with ; he merely wished that the
same amount of taxes should be raised from a different
class of the people. The Right Hon. Vice-Piesieent,
when lie brought forward his motion, which he did in a
most able speech, as supported by the Noble Lord, and
by must of the Members of the present Administration,
with the exception of the First Lord of the Admiralty ;
and though he expected that the Noble Lord would act on
the present occasion in the teeth of the opinion which he
had formerly stated, still he (Mr. Robinson) did not mean
to say that he would do so from inconsistency, but merely
from a change of the circumstances in which he then stow+.
He hoped, however, that the Noble Lord would excuse
him, if he quoted his opinion upon that occasion—not
for the purpose of pointing out any inconsistency, but
merely because he con-idered the opinion of the Noble Lord
as the leader of a powerful patty while out of office, and of
a still stronger parry now that he was in, as deserving of
great attention. The Noble Lord "admitted, that in 1819
he was opposed to a property tax ; but he had now reason
to believe, that it was the ill-arranged state of taxation
which had created a pressure upon the people, and he
therefore raised his voice in favour of a revision. The
Committee would deeply be engaged in discussing the
principles of taxation, and would have little evidence to
hear. He would support the motion, because be was of
opinion that the labours of such a Committee would I e
beneficial " He (Mr. R.) could not have a more able
advocate than the No le Lord; and he would again beg
to ask what had happened since, to induce the Noble
Lord to oppose a motion to the very same effect at the
present time, as he was sure he would? He lamented—
and had reason to lament—th it because he brought for-
ward a motion in which the Government did not coin-
cide, it should be said that be did so in opposition to Go-
vernment; or that if they should be left in a minority
upon it, they should be obliged to quit office. That
latter doctrine was one against which he protested. So
far from wishing that the Government should resign, or
that he brought forward his motion in opposition to them,
he hoped, that should the House decide upon adopting
the motion which be was about to make, they should
confirm the decision of the House by acting upon it.—
(Hear, hear.) He hoped that the Government would be-
lieve that he did not bring the motion forward in order to
embarrass them, but that, on the contrary, his only wish
was to take steps that would lead to an investigation of
the causes of the distress, and to a cotninhtation of the
taxes, as the best means of relieving the people from that
distress. He thought that at all events the appointment
of a Committee on the subj-ct would be of advantage, as it
would show the people that the reformed Parliament were
determined to loves igare into the causes of their distress,
and to adopt means to rid them of their burdens. When
the proposition was made by the Right Hon. Vice- Presi-
dent, in 1830, it was eppased to it by the Government of
that day, that it was an invasion of the duties of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer. But he (Mr. Robinson)
thought that it was the right of every Member to make
such a proposition. If they allowed the foundations of
the prosderity of the count.), to be sapped, they would
bring it into such a situation that the question would at
length be, not whether property should pay its proportion
towards the expenses of the State, but whether property
should remain in the hands of its proper owners? Dr.
Smith, in his " Wealth of Nations," had advocated the
adoption of a property tax. He s lid that " the dis-
advantage of indirect razes was, that the people paid more
than the Government got;" and he therefore said that
they ought to be relieved from indirect taxes, and that a
property tax should be laid on. He hoped that, with these
testimonies in favour of the adoption of that measure, they
would nut object to the appointment of the Committee.
He anticipated great good from it in many ways, hut
more especially on account of the moral effect which
it would have upon the people, who would thee,
he repeated, see that the reformed House of Commons
were determined to relieve the distresses of the people, and
instead of doing nothing but speak there, they had at last
determined to take the burdens of the State off those who
had so long borne them, and to place them on the shoul-
ders of those who ought to bear them. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Oldham bad, on a former occasion, made out a
strong case of the unequal anal unjust pressure of taxes in
the instance of the stamp duties. He (Mr. Robinson)
would only add, that the whole of the present system of
taxation tended to break down and disable those who
ought to be the greatest support and stay of the Govern-
ment. One of the greatest difficulties which it might be
anticipated this measure would meet with, would be on
the part of gentlemen connected with the landed inter at,
who, he believed, entertained an idea that their property
would net admit of the additional burden of a pro-
perty tax.—(clear, hear.) This idea he considered
altogether fallacious. He believed that the landed in-
terest would be in reality benefited by a property-
tax; and he would explain his reasons for this belief
directly; but on this point be could not do better
than to read to the House the opinions expressed`
in favour of a property tax, by a gentleman whom
the House would at once acknowledge to be a very
first-rate authority ; this gentleman was Mr. Banker,
who on a motion brought forward on a former occasion
similar to the present, expressed himself as follows :
" The Government adroit they cannot go further without
a substitution of taxes. To this I think we must resort
if we want to relieve the distresses of the country. Io
considering this subject with the view to a commutation
of taxes, we should endeavour as much as possible, to
spare the poor, and lay the burden upon the opulent. I
give this motion my support, being satisfied that there is-
no way so ready to relieve the distresses of the country as
to commute a large portion of the taxes, by laying a larger

opitrr.opporlorntpiemornytyoontpaixtnhio;osnaentidinitisefrwetshotisuldihs ahtteosabtreebdeboentiseot:latelbtbieygootg..::erlio:it:
olitnee
done the better. I say, that we should lose n?.
circumstances of the country are urgent ; the dietr_loie
mitted on all hands to be great, and I hoe Moo jlif
whether the country can go on tinder the present 5:.17.31.
taxation. That an income or property tax is a peealjOt
sure on land-cl interests I believe to be an error; 7:hfW
every gentleman of large landed property would sO7O.
because, though it be apparently a heavy tax oPal'i
duals, there is no doubt that it would produce a:4
alteration in the condition of the country, and, °P.';ai
for the good of the whole, the landed propriett!roi
have his share of the general advantages." This jpi
rj
opinion expressed by Mr. Banker, "end he did 0.,".
but it would have its due effect on the Hawse.
Robinson) could hardly call himself a large la 4
prietor, but he possessed land as weal as other pro?° e
He had been obliged to reduce his rents 20 or so
cent. in consequence of the pressure of the titneet
the same time trade and commerce ware in a gill paet
condition. He should be far from saying that atie rel
teller class of property should he fixed upon as t
for the proposed tax, bet he should propose a ttloteli
realized property of every description. lie 000
substitution of the present unequal taxation, and he 0,0
feel great curiosity to hear what arguments the,;so
Gentleman opposite (Mr. P. Thomson) would 01701
of against this prop asitien, when he called to iniodi
strong language that Right Hon. Gentleman, ersilinsti
ago, when not in office, supported a motien Pr lAti not°
the same as the present motion. Lest this Sh°ll'.,
within the immediate recollection of the 11°V loP
would read the motion itself; which was
ward in March, 1830, and was as folleays
Select Committee be appointed to inquire into Pe w
ed
diency of making a revision of the taxes, so that theido
of paying the sums voted by the House, and 5
f01,.00
charges for the public service, may be provided
as little injury as practicable to the industry amlnv hi
(til
went of the citatory.. The motion was negated b 1
majority of 89, after being very strongly suPrrted,,,l,!l4.
folowiog gentlemen :—Mr. C. Grant, Mr. R.
Howick, Lord Belmerston, Lord J. Russell, Mr. Stttifi'ct
a
Mr. Stanley. The Tellers were Lord Althorp and '"r6eollr
Thomson. It thus appeared that the Right Hon: ,fiotic*
man opposite had ht en one of the Tellers on
btu
It would be, therefore, curious to hear whatthe Rig—of tY
Gentleman would now adduce against the princiPi:eloa
mitaeure which he then so strongly advocated. ill;sttpli
Gentleman (Mr. Robinson) then proceeded to say tyedoc"
iwt:rxicr,
re—the
7wttih
ecsil
of proposedps:
the
tsashouldslet:s
assessed
dhaep
etrartx:peesa, led "t ,4 et
the
rob,tsta
101(
sit stn
on'd ae
stone bottles ; one half of the sugar duties,
of the duties on tea; the duties on cotton sv"e°l',,,eanAll
taxes on newspapers and advertisements, and to"le-boii.rief-
these were taxes bearing meet heavily on the .It 000
classes. There was also that most grievous ttl'aiate'
most necessary of all necessary articles of coosutrajitri
hr ; for he considered the corn laws to be in iiottel
tax on bread ; but he was not going to enter into g" i,lOl
que•tien at pr, sent, except to obe-rve how inspevatn e'or
upon the Hous• to tak it into their most s 0-0 *l4}
s.deration ; for, by the operation of the corn 0'4,-for
ate informed in Sir Henry Parnell's most exc,'llen;lsoo;
on Financial Reform, a tax of not less than twel'e;re
and a half is levied upon the people. These "Dear°
taxes upon the necessaries of life. It did trotal),."Jedli
him that any effectual relief could be safely 05°' orj
the people, :wept by the levying of a property f','„,fse
he really did not think it would be long ere thertent it;
this tax would themselves acknowledge the bens re erg/
for, while he proposed this, he at the same time of of
the alt lition of the assessed taxes and the repol °;o'
other taxes, besides a very large reduction in taXat'° tif
making a large reduction in the cost of colleVif
taxes. At present, according to the computation° 01
. 's
Henry Parnell, the cost of the collection of taae-leev
Itaapeosnr-
property
pehtaehi
.ratate:nyreoaunti
tiailesodxahnrewl
fl
gtlohbtuihter,
ehwme
doneee
ti l
cioboiansenwe. staiaGa;ykie:wnsnsui.:cteihhmni
n;sadinniaeeeneut,dhni
hfor
theen 'a it
cod, avo:pe
r:
e_ r
ep 0
st
d.
Ireland, where the people of the lower class este
miserably destitute as to he unable to pay their ta.vetai'
so well as the people of the same cl as in thitme
Surely this dreadful state of things ought to he re forth
The great landed proprietors there ought to be tna—,aie,
support of that cuuntiy, and not be thus allowedt,°--019
der the money derived from their lands therell,°i, 001
countries. e ould now proceed to state Wbat;
omin:
kael
nyn:a.watvgt
away
ye
evhtoeet
not voted
plan
'neatg el]
adopted,
oltp,htaeef
dte,:wicotuiedx premisingtaeinotn
alone strike
thatt
r
burled
,eePpeLtlhe
stt:.]
hisshouldpikhi principle
poea lfti
aclntat n,eltauen:yspt the
iot au:rroL:fte igloo;
ad::
the amount must, of course, be left to tltele-B,gph'e.: e to TA
he
lions
s
d
acwnardoruiaalbdgo,ev,,h,eepadlowlg:sst,l'elir._tiaso".ol,*„
ofTwhi
iteoni
Noof bthele people.
L..osHer
ewdoipstviphacee,xidmei,slti:eeil filfj root of
:tffhcutree:l3,l:lweyil__ooU
odious and unequal impost, the house and beWind°
sure, inow ,
vinc.d of the necessity of repealing this tax. surge,
3,0
naerahle petitions which h been presented againttoa
don'tpotn:sx
numberless meetings, and the stron feeling e°l° Nod
to
you intend anisn thist
dt
the different deputations who had w!ited on 0:
octmionoingdtiaeortni
armorial
oeet
xroiacansiikt
ehedb:
bearings,
nrßttgliu:sihts
Lord on the subject of this great grievance, tuu:st„,.o4-.lledit,
re
r
oaflsacorwithyrnlr
inequality
ir,,ebqttigurnederhheuetetheettetitayahhrthhal
ee;wftope3srrayuseiiptr.
saom9tketo?enhaooewi
repeal
dna'
Iwel 'Tite.aoiravheeirerfa;hlnhe:vnaesduioetßallockevhenrh
nhoseyueoet,i,
tigaypahl;rxutetgireshean:el shouldsurpilapday,eitet,tienateroshnxt:tfveyhaßi
tnhaiteoßHoißedfordshire.
enmi ft,
houses
neln,hve,trpar.s(e.whf,
dtgrei
GeAr,
prevailed,
loalvhsytecitwainerrpiacodtsqlesoaelent.etudiehnal
aryeerbs:.oetaceolerhev,oninaiateiyntnehoteec
steteiiiutno::enrst
ys
_oteigl,
ecoooheb:sottoirei g
these taxes, at least, are levied upon people welt hooli
ti
m
dealt with in a good spirit With respect to thel be
stance owuptheei
with several other instances. In the county of Prprfoo:7,
that there were only four houses rated at above I°-1:10.:,
Hon. Gentleman, atter citing several other t°,l;
whole of the assessed taxes were about 4,000,0°'-nersl.
pealed, taking into cone::
taxes, and the other taxes he had mentioned, °' tier
lhtteeoarlV-1416
mast disadvantageously on the poorer classes, and °Pee Er,
By the repeal of the maltrindy etetamrawxaxi
tisitectehshhuopei
ueeticythni,
etiaduhlulsfsbter:rif)elireopiqctueitts:is)iinrche
htt°7beeoo:oo,
derive the greatestetmadholeavviantages, moral and phrie:::tliel.'
would then be able to brew good wholesome bee I-001
ickAs,ddtiiniegs,toggelatshse,r
hthopesr
malt,oun opflipthear:
eio4lperd
dowutnieshoounsebs;
starch, and stone bottles, the t .tal deficiency the'..tbrottrie
would occasion would be 7,000,0001. He likeveleteeioa'
that the greatest advantages in every point of viewtigsf/
be derived from the repeal of half the duties 00 s-ni
an article which might be considered a necessary ;fen!:
In this article, the amount taken from the
would be 2,100,0001. He also considered ele°
santial to reinl one-half the duty on tea, which 1:110:
a necessary of life. On this head the revenue v4:lle.f
loser to the amount of 1,600,0001. The repeat "( te"
die
article would become doubly necessary in the Writ °
anticipated opening of the trade to China; othertlle#,
berggling, &c., would be carried on to a dreadful e-f
He
should
arepeat of the duty would obviate every fear 6101.1
also propose the repeal of the duty (ton
wool : he considered a tax on the raw material as he
to all good policy. The deficiency in the revestlet,"'dool
would be 360,0001. He also proposed to repeal u
selfiA`7
on newspapers and advertisements, on priona.riP4:oll,l'
had been repeatedly laid down in that House. rle; -eta
were the organs for disseminating that knowledg_ier-milie,,ni
the people which was indisp•ns able to their WP;irr-,0
ought not to be taxed ; and he considered that
were the chief sufferers by the advertisement dut)6.oo°',
this article the less to the revenue would be 6011°;
ot atelibst
Altogether, the loss to the revenue would appear
thela
Housetols,7lo,Onoiigolh.t
subtractßut fro a
large
tehrigseamsuomun,tolatie ciauleru ....eit)ll
prc'ep.,"
that the diminution of taxation on articles Would Peso
an increased sale of those articles. If the tax we:too/I
tiff any particular article, the poor man would, oh
3s for
not only be able to purchase a larger portion of t ~olo°
ticular article, but would be also in a condition to budibeti
other necessary, which, by reason of the tax, be la netni
been incapacitated from doing. He had taken sotat,.,;
110
in making a calculation of the probable addition:v.oo,
revenue by the alterations he contemplated. Thi.„bpre
apparent amount of the loss to the revenue, bY 14"' tbiff
pun repeal in taxes, was 15,710,000/. From hob,
11
by his calculation, might he reduced in the collecti:111,1
'e
taxes. Another sum of 500,0001. be calculated
rt• cult from the increased consumption of sugar, 07, 0P
hoer ever, they must deduct the sum of 600,0001., ,
sum of 400,0001. from the increased consumptioo of
and a fourth sum of 310,00/, which would arleckddleg
the increased consumption of other articles. I'd slr°
sum of 1,710,0001., which, deducted from the so/2:610
these four sums together, there
Would lOa"
total loss to the revenue of 15,710,00041
would be prodnolfwel

ttrnount of 14,000,000/. ; this amount proposed
p‘l,s by the tax en property. It bad been nicht that
• "ion of the taxation would he incom ztoble with the
laf ety of the stare; but he himself thought that genera'
'slewhrr.a,,:;l"l'llt4y would, on the contrary, be consulted
aj:...";" the °PrPseed people of their galling burd-no were 'at from thinking that the prospects of the country.
acv"pt„ewraPt in so impenetrable a gloom as haul been
In't•l °We, but he certainly felt that we were in
tuaymeritical state, and that none but prompt and effee
irouit
ouclis.ures would be of any service in extricating us
iatindthiefih.r,ejudt,y,,
!There were ample resources and in-aos
quite sufficient to meet all these difficulties.
of e"old Prevail upon the House to avail themselves
Clal r;:tihsou tees, they would soon produce the most benefi
heatust He was sorry to troub'e the House longer, but
god heto:V.s fete words words on the subject of the property tax,
he H. 41441 "
onthen he most anxious to elicit the feelings of
the nrin •;, of his oion eore the
get, He'
'arl , e 'lat no doubt but that Governmentbwfould feel
(4. 144,144 v on the natter, and that the gentlemen
Waffoid Pt.°Prlty would cry out, •‘ But, good God I can
ture• to n
och ray a property tax in addition to all those
the just%are,now cal ed upon to pay aoreemd to
turt, • or the question but he would ask the I
if the , • , • • . ensation to be
1,," fror. should consider it no crimp •
iutH the assessed taxes, from the
.malt and hip
"vet elas4l,Y consider it no compensation to see the
'ent 'gain contented and happy, and the rinse-
'giro •
h cts would be
Pritclue,d . Y to themselves ? all whic • e e
thtt, !rem the measure he proposed. He contended.
ohj,etaor an act of justice, property ought to be the
o h alati))s • and that labour and industry ought
At pr),e ourdened', except cases of imminent necessity.
Ma; :exit, according toa itery close calculation be haul
4Plait Pn°r man earning but a few shillings a week for the
thse,tthitrdhitnself his wife, and children, pail n less
,°lll,B earnings to the service of the State. This
tPrbst p:Itl!°, Poor man ;aid ; but he would be glad to know
'c'n the rich man Totributeci. C-riflemen who,
d of 1 '
ektill'ir a' ge property in land, the funds, or any other
bath d'n; of Property—who kept up wouldism
Pt4ovrt'i kr4gings or club houses, be ask what
forty • "did they pay?
Many of these held large pro-
m' itic4o,,ti!' funds, and it was the large funded d• bt which,
11, equenei.s, principally caused the distress. Was
'ret just i oolitic to allow such an enor•
ar°"tint r a r'
el isses ?
eit,i, 0. tax to rest upon the labouring
al) to the P'° t• Hitherto the poor classes, who had looked
,v'ete pre higher orders for assistance and protection,
'eta leVoll,ly
.ointed, and the higher classes had ti
costoined tuPii'look upon the lower orders with
/ly thi.e and dislike, as intruders aiming at their property.
tiattily'hintrdnfkortunate state of things, the security of the
Ptct both ea much weakened, the natural regard and
t tit al.'"" el'tvses had for the Crown toeing forgotten in
INist:'r"aPPy dissenSions with earl) other. As to the
:4'115 ,whieh this property tax should be levied—
e k got that it should he levied at a per tentage on
v.lued ; others, mom income derived
;',Louchi`akm Property ; and a thi.d party proposed that
Pta "t
levied upon realized property itself of every
aA'htti, lm• Some nientioned a certain fixed rate, and
'tiat4tEd tagzraduated rare. He himself should suggest a gra-
ti,'"iption °I a Per tentage upon realized property of every
11,4 ver,, He would have it on a graduated scale, so
11'1°114 'nail with only 2001 a•year should not p iy at
ly et pros rate With a loan of 20,000/. a• ear. He would
Thu 4re:eon:it°, "n.tion the amount of his graduated scale,
tit friotocti the 20,000/. a-y ar gentlemen.
tlool ”urahie ,
•-teto leman then, adverting to the
th':1),4.41;'
.isaid that the interest if it was 28 millions,
(off were
ht 7 millions-35 millions altogether ; yet
t.N7aitte n'Y 11 millions upon which we can operate in
It aF'tgiu
not BaPply. He cont-nded that the excessive
° which our people were now exposed, made
.
"ee, arY to .
farticles of subsist.
thou p 1 re ice the price to all
t put e!gn nations were successfully encroaching on
vaßlith '",ts which were once exclusively our own.
r idrti
ah 0.408, and English machinery, and the espied
t'"tto -"" hail all gone abroad, and enabled other
1:041,4:4a • to overtake this in the career of
ofk,l'tirt4r Hear.) The consequence was, that
ts,rsfit,ls,--
shad become excessive, hence lowness
hildi,(ll the atrad. lowness of wages, andanl
hence all the
tort l'ersor_ (-tory system, and of that pauperism which
of ithj e tit the land. It was becoming the Legisla-
t'it ton 'hrer to look fairly and manfully into the state
.
They ought, without procrastination,
4,rtt evasion such as had heretofore been used, to
tetikH !stress 'of the country with a view to givinge
teee~eOtß Noble Lord, the other evening, admitted t
°f Iresto and he certainly was afraid, ift.h e
I
oti-PPoietrall'd awayt
without inquiry, that they would d s-
,„
the"Pectations of the people and produre cones-
ibend „ 'host taral ro the interesta of the country. He
t4tl4",,lirv,l't the Noble Lord desired to do what e could
wick the condition of the people, and he could
. not
that s•
tthe Hon. Member for Bridport, that if any
ther,:," GocllCtnul were canoed against the Government,
weresere ',:t'"tsrit must retire. He had no reluctance
the %tied "I'ke such a motion, and trusted thati
takl,tit'estry might be found to ease tlipereb.usrtuiree,
oh
st: 1,451°,4 Thae°o lighten t e nmetml,
Member
presentcotgreaticluded by moving—
thooka,°4l.4.let Committee be appointed to consider alnuif
411e-s-„lstleh'lntt'ag taxation, with a view to the repeal
1!-'' press most heavily on productive in
ktPitt the 1' subst t • of an equitable tax on property
,oueof.,, ution
rek WAr,
4'll hi tt seconded the motion. After the
It, the BURTON
Hon. Member for Worcester haul made
d •t ' 4 '1 00. Member could hardly expect that he
cue
t 1,4, to second his motion ; hut he was desirous of
lot 'w
lie could assure the Hou-e that there was no
114 tail) "4 the Hon Member and him. He had no
t'filtb4°l4'd 414' a rnotic• n for a specific inquiry ; but he
ekttvid the Motion the other evening, because it was
ee,iitad comprehensive a nature, that, had it been
101 'l4l the the Petitions complaining of grievances, pre-
nitie4arl t wh°le session ought necessarily to have been
4 note that •
d to that motion
roorsthe •-,onitnittee. co, oi Jecte
wilt rkt'::ally, because there was one subject of the in-
koO'Y, l-li" 'vent to rescind all the contracts of the
Ilitg°'llthe—n.t, °VA:tett to the extensive nature of the
Sloti '4" eVerling, but tie approved of the principle
t'httent,e'ti• He considered it specific enough to engage
for ad for 2 °f a Committee, and therefore he seconded rte °!. L
slolatin Y beau taunted, when he introduced
. a Bill
blor:chilto the single subject of tobacco, with taking
.
his the office of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ,
arldr' W4l,t)ticia Were liable to that objection, how much
to !which Vnotion liable to it which haul just been mane,
i
Ph seconded? It should, hewever, be well
cheated•
; d fitir system of taxation was more ci!tn-
t3C Was II;
thou2h it undoubtedv required modificat.ion,
thtt'ta', had .jeat difficulty in meddliug with it.
trov't coefd4 "ttended itself into all branches of business,
eo,,tlt) 0 rarcely be touched in any branc.h, witi ofu
Itte,i'''lsati.„4 the part of some of the people, demand •lur
f 411,,—.4, Or a cause of complaint. Thus, to a -
•.tif'44„ `;' auction duties which the Hon. Member
.
lvha. tlity .w.l bad on a former evening brought under notice
diesel paid ere taken off, would not all the shopkeepers
.
toY heavy house and window taxes 'time-
? Would they not say that they were.
t 51•.: h ytaxes for everything they sold in their
e‘1,.13,4 ••) Is 'tahv who sold by auction, and kept up no
elate shines
thillAt,t)tv, those who
exempt from such duties? e
of
‘',et as an example to show that it was not so easy,
el'oliN,4°Portant it was, to give facility to the transfer.
eit4t:tily t4Y'•••-to make changes as
.to propose them. This
Aland 'ample of the complicated system which had
the' ut4Et fl-'°f over the whole country. The Honourable
\‘'al.aktai;4k()ld.huni had complained of the inequality of
tniee r,
.'at It belonged to this complicated system—it
4,'4lly.''''',"'rY part of it—that the taxes should press
''1,1:144 Of Wio3 not necessary to specify the unequalb
44 •
s?trticular taxes, for that was a vice wiiic
• 4,1'4 system. It was the nature of taxation
5, Ours, that it was not easily altered,
tvhso rd -?1,1• tona was liable in every part to serious
Honourable Member for Worcester
tatty' °t tlit tfil Property, though he did not knowert
Pr`tlis 1444trable Member meant to tax property
ye
Zer,ely Par‘:l)4yl:_and income. He would say, that if t
were not
I lat(p were to be permanent,
if
• stice to
!°atieptislim'- it would not be doing any injustice
114„vi, °4ld °Ligh,,ell as property. If such a tax were rifoir
tY. ell
fall on annuitant, as well as others,
kere
;11,5 lith them as long as they received the an-
tititi'4l' tIL` '41)"" onchiefly made to the tax formerly
eke th ‘‘va6 3 made tir the tax formerly
0t b: 55 5yW55
Unequal to tax property and °4'e;
tetae%.mternunpeeqrmaanent, and not temporary, let
14°Priet. VVitll',! war tax, and that obj ction would dui-
ieteee(ll4)ell'..f.. entering into any question as to the
tai "le (Seatedu b g 'mall incomes, though perhaps small
.
t elempt, he saw no stice in taxing
,'mind ten Pert41 funded as well as other property. A
y tl4. falling far one year on au annuitant
1,44 eats' ten Put Per cent
away f • rn the income ; but at
Zeinelenttli::::trilr,,,:ueh.a tax wouldln only take e 200th
o 0,°•••••.441 It had been proposed by a very
41 up gat tft4 entioia whom was to praise hun—Mr.
Nat,,n„sll , t' Should be made by a general tax.a-
speeie3"`f be rek°Perty of the country to pay off the
rriptino Pr"Pertj'';'' Plan was to lay a tax on every
'vat') th—.ll?!. the IA capital, and income, for the re
it tett, it • The leading objection to that plat
,eytkr'Practicatile.--.(A laugh.) The
have been brought to consent to re-

new and change all their mortgages to attain such an ob-
ject. A new modification of Mr. Ricardo~ plan hid
I irely been proposed by a gentleman who had been sen-
ploved in colleeting the income. tax. That gentleman's
none was, we understood Saer, and he would recommend
liis book to the perusal of Hon. Members. His plan
dila' red from Mr. Rirardo'e by his proposing to leave it
()enemal with every capitalist and landlord to pay off his
elm ire of tae national debt. If the person was unaole or
unwilling to redeem his share, why, it was to remain,
roil he collected as before, but if he chose to wash his
hands this tax, why, it w is to be at his option to re-
deem it: If the subject should ever he fairly taken into
censideration, this plan of giving landlords the option of
red enption would relieve it of its impracticability, arid
make the scheme be thought desirable , The land tax
'night be taken as an illusnevion, the redemption of which
had been allowed on a similar principle. It had been 01,-
ji.c,etl to a primerty tax—that it wee one which any Go-
vermnent could easily extend. In his opinion it was much
mitre difficult for a Government to increase such a tax than
indirect taxes. The indirect taxes were mixed up with
the prices of the articles. an'i the tax-payer never knew
either when he was paying a tax, or how much he was
paying But the tax collected on property brou lit the
tax collector immediately into contact with the citizens;
and in the collection of no tax did so touch friction in-
terfere between the citizen and the payment, to stop the
Government from running too fist as in a property tax.
In his opinion, the plan proposed by the Hon. Member for
Wurcestet was not comprehensive enough. If a property
tax were established at all, it ought to supersede all other
taxes, otherwise the change was scarcely desirable. If
they raised the same amount of taxes, it was nor of much
importance whether it were raised by one method or
another; for the ability of the people to pay fifty millions
of taxes would not ire much increased or diminished by
the method of collecting it. The Hon. Member's plan left
three millions behind for collection. It left all the evils
and expenses of indirect taxation—all the expense of
Boards and Collectors—which ought to be got rid of as
far as possible. Should the Noirle Lord, the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, consider it proper to recommend a property
tax, he hoped the Noble Lord would make so extensive,
so sweeping a change, that he would remove the whole
mass of indirect taxation. The plan of an income
tax, redeemable at option, would not be liable to
any objections of being a breach of faith, such as
was implied, he believed, in the motion of the
Hon. Member for Birmingham. It would leave ail ex•
isting contracts untouched—it would remove taxes from
the industry of the country, and it would place these taxes
where they could he best borne—on the large capitalists,
and on the large tended proprietors, and on those who
ought to bear the heaviest taxation. Against any motions
male with a view to break faith with the public ere•
ditor, or to commit a breach of contract, he should come
armed with this suggestion of Mr. Ricardo, and say, that
it would be far better to impose au income and property
tax, than consent to any such motion. To any motion
implying a breach of faith, he should always give his
opposition ; and that was one reason why he opposed the
motion already alluded to on a former evening.—Ques-
tion put.
Lord ALTHORP did not accuse the Hon. Member
who brought forward the motion of any intention to eine
berrass the Government. On the contrary, he thought it
was a fair motion, and the Hon. Gentleman had brought
it forward only, he believed, with a view of stating his
own opinions to the House. lie did not obi et to the
motion, because it was his duty, as a Member of
his Majesty's Government, to bring forward, if neces-
sary, such motions; for if the 'lmmovable Member
chose to save him the trouble of making a financial
statement to the House, he should nit m ke any
set ious objection.—( Cries of " H. ar, hear.") He must
first allude to what the Hon. Gentleman said of the duties
of his situation. He admitted that the duty of his situation
was to state tee ttu h of the affiirs of the country. He
had always endeavoured to do that. Nothing was so ab-
surd or so injurious as for a Statesman to boast of a pro-
sperity which did not exist, at the same time it was his
duty not to overlook any advantages. He was net bound
nm make the pub is distress greater than it really was. It
was his du•y at all tinter, and on every topic, to state to
the House. fully and faTly, exactly what he thought on the
subject.—(alear, hear.) Wi h re-pect to what the Hon.
Gentlem in said of his having given his assent to a similar
motion in 1830. when made by his Right Hon. Friend
(Mr. Peulett Thomson), it should, however, he remem-
bered that the motion then made was ter the revision of
t xition, ant it did not apply to a property tax. At the
same time he would fairly admit, that he hail on that oc-
casion used expressions such as those the Hon. Member
alluded to, and had expressed himself fivionable to a
property tax. He knew that he had sta ed, that,
though he was opposed to a property tax in 1819,
yet sub-rquent experience taught him that it might
be adopted. He stated then in 1830, that this
chance of opinion had been brought about by longer
experi, nce. But since 1930, he had had a greet deal mine
experience, and experience of a kind calculated to take
mere effect on his mind than any experience he had had
h•fore. His opinion, in 1830, was certainly that a change
[night be made in the tax ition of the countiy ; but it he
had then seen the many difficulties which had since been
thrown in the way of making such an experiment, he
should prebebly not have been of that opinion. Wiiat
was the first financial statement he masle to the Reuse?
Was it not for a commutation of taxes? Certainly it was,
and tl e experieece he then acquired, showed him that
such a proposition was not so easily carried into effect.
What did he find, then ? Every facility was giv, n hitn try
time House to take aff a tax; but there was an extreme
difficulty to impose taxi-s in lieu of those removed.—
(Hear, hear.) He recollected the objections then
made by the Hun. Member fur Whitehaven : the Hon.
Member said, it was " half peace, half war." He wag
ready to admit that a commutation of taxes sounded well
—a commutation that was to make a more equal distri•
Imution—to take off the taxes which pressed on industry,
ar.d lay them on more equally ; but in practice that was
not found so easy or so desirable. The (lest' uction of
capital which that produced, the disturbance of trade,
tine imposing a new tax on one, and taking it off another
class, made the commutation of taxes interfere with many
interests. It was not so good in practice as it was perfect in
theory. With respect to the principles of taxation laid
down by the Hon. Gentleman, he agreed in them. The
taxes should certainly be removed from the labouring classes,
and laid on property. But the difficult question was to
know what taxes pressed most on labour.—(Hear.) The
Hon. Gentleman said that taxes should not be laid on ar-
ticles of the labourers' consumption ; but in his opinion,
taxes which interfeted with the employment of labuur,
pressed more severely on the labourer than taxes on arti-
cles of his consumption.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he
thought that in taking off taxes they ought rather to cone
sider whether the taxes to be remover! interfered with the
employment of labour, than whether they fell on what time
labourer cousumed. Another point to be considered was,
whether a tax was popular or not ; for certainly one object
should be so to regulate taxation, that it should be paid in
such a manner as to give satisfaction to the people. It
was not necessary for him then to go into the question of
the inequality of taxation ; he acknowledged that it ex-
isted, but that he believed was a necessary part of the
system. It was impossible, he believed, to regulate taxation
so as to fall only upon the rich.—(Hear, hear.) The
great mass of taxation must necessarily fall on the middle
classes, and at least a small part on the labouring classes.
The Hon. Gentleman proposed a large, an enormous re-
duction of taxation. The Hon. Gentleman stated it at
15,000,060/. He should, however, say that the propo-
sition of the Hon. Gentleman would go the length of
reducing taxation 17,000,0001. The Hon. Gentleman
said that the whole sum of 15,000,000/. or 17,000,0001.
would not be lost to the revenue, but a part of it
would be made up by increased consumption.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) He admitted that, and even thought that
the increased consumption would furnish a larger com-
pensation than the Honourable Gentleman supposed. The
Hon. Gentleman supposed that the 15,000,0(10/. reduced
would, in fact, only take away 14,000,000/. from the re-
venue, but he should say, that it would not take away
above 12,000,000/. But in the case of a property tax,
proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, there would be
no increased power of consumption. It would remain the
same. That tax would fall on the rich, and the amount
they consume would remain about the same. By removing
a property tax, they would not increase the consumption
of the rich in the same manner as they would increase
the consumption of the poor, if they took off razes which
raised the price of what they consumed. His Hon. Friend
had not adverted to the amount of taxation which lie pro-
posed to raise ; he presumed, however, that the intention
was to raise, by means of a propetty tax, an amount of
taxation equal to the sums levied by the taxes to be reduced.
He would, therefore, call the attention of the House fora
taw minutes to the property tax which was taken off in
1816. The amount raised by this tax was 11,500,000/.
It they looked to the sources whence that sum was de-
rived, they would find that the tax was intended to hear on
pro essional incomes, and on the profits of trade, as well
as on incomes arising from reaiized property. From the
various evasions to which this mode or taxation was liable,
it became difficult to ascertain the true amount of profits
'tonal incomes, or trading profits; and the conse-
quence was, that a very iiieptupurtiuna e part of the
whole amount was derived from fixed incomes.—
(Hear, hear.) He would also call on the House to re-

member what was the value of money at the time when
a propery tax existed ? If they would look to that
poin•, it would lead them to the conclusion that an incom-
tax of 10 per cent. would not now pr duce so much a.,
the property tax in 1816. Now, he would ask any gen-
tleman of experience, whether the introduction of such a
tax would not have the effect of driving capital out of the
country ? A property tax was suited to a period of war,
rather than to a period of peace. During war, there werc
many counteracting. circumstances which prevented capital
from being withdrawn. But if in a period of peace,
property were to be deprived of so large a proportion of its
emolumen's, the natural cons (pence would the with.
drawal of capital.—(Hiar.) His Hon. Friend hail said
that he would take off all indirect taxes, and substitute a
property tax. But Le (Lord Althorn) was assured that
any attempt to raise 52,000 0001. per annum by means
of a property tax, would produce such an effect num;
capital, as would strike a most f cal blow at the pro,pe'ritN,
of this country.—(Hear.) His HAI. Friend said dia,
the property tax which he proposed was to be a graduated

Now he was pereectly free to admit that every
man should pay taxes in proportion to what he enjoyed ;
and if it were possible to invent any system which,
without these disadvantages, could effect that object, it
would be the perfection of taxation.—(Hear.) But, in
reference to a graduated propery tax, he could not see
upon what principle they were to go. It was notliine
more nor less than saying what amount of income a man
ought to h lye. When they laid on a greater tax on a
Irian possessing 20,0001. per annum than on a man pos-
sessing 1,0001. a-year, what was it but saying than toot
man of 20,0001. a-year had too much property? If tl,e
principle were to be carried out to that extent, it wouloi
corne eventually to the equalization of all property.__
(Hear.) Nothing could be so dangerous as to hold rout
such a prospect. He did not, however, mean to pledge
himself that to a certain extent he might not go along with
the Hon. Gentleman—(Hear, hear)—but he did not think
it desirable at the present time that the House should en-
tertain the subject of the commutation of taxes with the
view proposed by the Hors. Gentleman. If the Hen.
Gentleman possessed the experience of himself (the Noble
Lord), he would know that, by taking off taxes, great in-
dividual distress was produced. That, certainly, he ad-
mitted, was no reason for not taking them off, though,
unless the case were one which particularly called for it,
he thought it desirable that the House should not encourage
such commutation. He did think, however, that in one case
where he commuted a tax, the commutation had proved ad-
vantageous to the country. The case he alluded to
was that of taking the duty off printed calicoes, and
placing it on the raw material ; although he admitted, that
to place a duty on the row material was contrary to
general principles. He could not consent to this motion.
Were he to do se he should be throwing on a Committee
of hat House a duty which was properly imposed upon
himself. It was his duty to inquire into and consider what
taxes could be reduced most advantageously to the public,
and that was one of the first objects to which he must and
should always apply himself. He Was anxious, perhaps
too anxious, when be first entered office, to efford imme-
diate relief to the people; but he had now giined a little
more experience, and be could assure the House, that he
felt it his duty to gee this subject his most serious coa-
sid• ration. —( Hear. )
Mr. COI3IIETT should vote fir the motion, not be-
cause he thought it right to impose a graduated property
tax, hut because he wished to get rid of the pre.eitt system.
A graduated property tax was n. ither more nor less than
contio.cation.—(Hear.) He complimented the Hun. Mem-
ber for Worcester Gn the ab e mariner in which he brought
forward his motion, and said that he would not detain the
House by any further observations.
Mr H UME said the Hon. Member for Oldham h ad
said a graduated property tax was a confiscation. Why,
all taxation was a coontiscation.—(Hear.) The only
question was, how they were to raise the taxes necessary
for the support of the state, so as to inflict the least possi-
ble evil on the community that paid them ? And he
would ask the lion. Gentleman, whether experience had
not proved that a direct tax on property was levied for
about one per cent. ; and whether it was not a greater
coefiscatiou to levy t axes as they were now levied, indi-
rectly, at a coat of 6/., el., or 16i. per cent.? The
princip!es, with regard to taxation, which he laid down,
and to which he ro quested the concurrence of the Hon.
Member fur Oldham, were, that net one shilling more
should be raised than was absolutely necessary ; and, se-
condly, that the necessary amount should he raised at tie
least possible sacuitice. The only objection he had to a
graduated property tax was, its utter impracticaiiility, on
account ot the evasion to which it was hi dole. He
thought, however, that by taking off the taxes on soap.
pate r, and other exciseable articles, and laying oa a
property tax in their reead, the Noble Lord would afford
great relies to the clocking classes. He hoped the Heu•e
would not suffer itself too be led away by the oeservation
that a property tax would lead to au equalization of pro-
perty. The tact was, th+t ultimately the whole of the
tax a of the couutry were paid by capital; and he was
satisfied that the capitalst, w be • her agriculturist or
otherwise, would find lama elf much better if by paying
taxes directly than indirectly. He agreed with much that
had fal en trOLII the Noble bird opposite, and also from
the lion. Member for Worces•ei ; lout he thought it
was a subject which would be brought forward by the
Treasury Bench with mere advantage than if it proceeded
from a Committee. Approving, as be did, of time general
principles laid down by the Noble Lord, he could only
express a hope that be would act on them as speedily as
Colonel TORRENS would vote for time motion of the
Hon. Member tor Worcester. It was well known that
Air. Huskisson, in one of his late speeches to his consti-
tuents at Liverpool, had declared it to be his opinion that
the industry of the country was so much oppressed, that
it had become necessary to raise the public revenue by
transmuting taxation front active capital which gave em-
ployment to labour, to the fixed and dormant property
from which more revenue was derived. The principle of
relieving- the country from ire oppressive burdens had
also been propounded by the late Mr. Ricardo, whose
memory ought nut to be lighty treated in that House.
—(Hear, hear.) Born without fortune, he created
a princely one ; self-educated, he attained the highest place
in political philosophy; coining late into that House, he
gradually acquired a lead and an ascendancy in it ; arid, be
it remember.al, that that ascendancy was acquired in other
days than these. It was acquired when Romany and Mac-
intosh—when Tierney and when Brougham sat on those
seats—and when Husleiss :n and Canning occupied the
Treasury Bench. His moral worth was equal to his in-
tellectual power. He had an ardent desire for esteem, and
no human being ever succeeded more completely in ob-
taining it. Too his family and friends he was an object of
affectionttoe admit ation ; and it was impossible to approach
him without feeling that he was a man made to be loved.
He left his place in that House not likely soon to be occu-
pied, and a void in the hearts of his friends which never
could be filled. He (Colonel Torrens) would now direct
himself to the question before the House. Throughout
the country there existed amongst the industrious classes
gen-ral and grievous distress. It was acknowledged that a
large portion of this distress arose from the pressure of
taxation ; and it was admitted that the most effectual relief
which this House could affurd, was taking off the pres-
sure of taxation. But how was this pressure to be re-
moved ? Thirty-four millions of the taxes were absorbed
by the interest-of the Debt, and there remained only
20,000,0001. which could be diminished by the reduction
of the public establishments. Now, no possible reduction
in the establishments of the country could afford any ade-
quate relief while the people paid, out of the produce of
their industry, 31,000,000/. for the interest of the Debt.
Relief could be obtained only by shifting taxation from in-
dustry and placing it upon the fixed and immoveable pro-
perty which was expended without putting industry in
motion. And here be must dissent from the Noble Lord,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Noble Lord had
just said, that if the proprietors of fixed property were
taxed, their revenue would be diminished ; they would
consume less, and therefore the indirect taxes would be-
come less productive. He (Colonel Torrens) dissented
from this. If a landed proprietor who received 100,000/.
a-year paid 10,000/. a-year as a property tax, this
10,000/. a-year would still exist as revenue in the hands of
those to whom the Treasury paid it; the whole unproduc-
tive income of the country, though oifferently dittlibuted,
would remain exactly the same in amount; and the con-
sumption could not be diminished, nor the revenue derived
from indirect taxation be reduced. The Noble Lord had
stated another position, from which he (Coeonel Torrens)
roust dissent. The Noble Lord had said, that were a tax
upon property imposed, capital would immediately be
erawn front the country, in order to evade the tax. Timis
could nut be, were taxation confiued, as it ought to be, to
fixed and immoveable property. Such a lax, instead of
driving capital out of the country, would draw capital into
it. What was the great evil of taxation ? The evil con-
sisted in this : Taxation, as ne.v imposed, took so large
a portion of the produce of industry from the producers,
that profits and w oges were reduced. But it you too:e off
all taxes from productive and active capital giving employ-
ment to labour, and placed them upon tne rent of land
and upon the dividends received from the debt, neither
profits nor wages would he reduced. On the contrary,
the profits derived from the employment of active capital
would io mediately ineroase, and to obtaiu die increased
profits capital would flow into the country, trade in all its
branches would improve, and the detnaud for labour and

the wneg of the labouter would both increme. 'lhere
was one ohjecti,m to the transfer of taxation front in-
dustry to fixed and dormant property, which, before
he sat down, he would notice. It was contended that
such a transmutation of taxation would he contrary
to the principle of justice. He (Colonel Torren.,) con-
tended that it would he conformable to the stn iciest
principle of justice. In the first place, the value of
fixed and flut-taut property wis regulat•d by the
quantity of floating and active capital employed in con-
junction with it. It was the capital of the farmer which gave
value to the land of the proprietor. It wan the capital
employed in setting productive lab-tor which paid the rent
of the houses i❑ our manufacturing and commertial
towns. When you taxed active capital, and thereby re-
duced profits and wages, you thereby diminished the rout
of land and of houses ; and when you relieved industry
from taxation, and thereby increased the surplus pro,'ut,
er,atcd, you at the same time increased the only fund
from which the revenue of fixed property and of dorm ant
capital could he derived. But there was another most im-
portant consideration connected with the principle of

justice. !Joon what principle of justice could we tax the
produce of the labourers yet unborn ? The possessors ef
fixed property might dispose of th it property as they
pleased, and to protect the whole, might mortgage a pact.
But by what right could any existing generation preserve
their property by taxing the industry of future genera-
tions? It was contrary to all the principles of national
justice to call upon the industrious classes of this country
to pay the interest of a debt incurred for the protection of
fixed property. The people must be relieved, and they
could not be effectually relieved while industry paid the
interest of the debt. The fixed property of the country,
for the protection of which the debt was incurred, should
be made to pay the debt. This was what justice de-
manded, and from the Reformed ParliAtnent the people ex-
pected justice. If relief were not afforded, and if justice
were not done, a spirit of discontent would arise fir greater
than that which the Reform Bill ha I allaye I. On these
grounds he should vote for the motion of the lion. Alealber
for Worcester.

An HON. MEIIHEIL (name unknown to us) was glad
that Lord Althorp had taken that view of the subject,
which it appeared he had done. If fifteen millions of
taxes were remitted to fifteen millions of tax pryers, the
relief to each would not be more than three farthings a-
day. It was, therefore, elear that employment was of
much more importance to the labouring classFs than a di-
minution of taxation. He agreed with the Hon. Member

for Oldham that a graduated property tax would be no-
thing more nor less than a system of confiscation.
Mr. WALTER said, te motion brought forward by
the Hon. Gentleman was of a nature totally different
from that made by the Hon. Member for Birmingham
last week, and was not liable to the same exceptions.
That motion was general ; and on that account was, he
thought, properly rejected, as it proposed inquiry only.
This motion was specific, recommending to the considera-
tion of the House a method of alleviating the public di,
tress, or at least of abating the public dissatisfaction.
He begged the House to consider what were the feelings
of the country "on the present state of taxation. No
one imagined that the taxes could he wholly relin-
quished, that the government of the country could
be carried on without them ; yet the cry against
taxation was universal, and in many respects, he thought
just. An Hon. Baronet had a few days ago pro-
posed the abrogation of the malt tax ; he meant to have
included the tax on hops in his proposition. The ass,-ssed
taxes were generally and earnestly di-claimed against ;
that portion of them which pressed unfairly on the
houses and windows of the middle and industrious
classes could nor, he believed, he maintained much longer.
The duty on fire insurances, on soap, on stamps, on pro-
bates of wills, were all exclaimed against and execrated
as partial, oppressive, and cruel ; yet if all these were
repealed, where would be the revenue to carry on the
Government, and to pay the interest of the public debt?
It followed, then, as an incontrovertible inference—as
an undeniable logical conclusion—that if the people of
this country acknowledged, as in common justice they
most, the necessity of a revenue for the support of
Government, and yet expressed their abhorrence of almost
every existing tax f. ir which revenue was raised as un-
just or impolitic, that, in order to give relief and produce
satisfaction, the whole system of taxation must be changed ;
it must be fixed upon other objects, or the burden muse
he so placed. after tieing lightened as much as possible, as
to hear in a very different ratio from the present on the
several classes of the community. What could be the
result of all this, but that a tax upon property—no
upon industry, not upon ingenuity and talents, which
were the most productive forms in which industry dim
played itself—but that a property tax, fitly graduated,
should supply the place of all other taxes against which
there was so just and general an outcry. In speaking of a
graduated property tax, he meant such should apply only in
the case of smaller incomes; he thought it would be objec-
tionable to apply the principle to the case of large fortunes.
Whosoever in that House was an advocate for the repeal of
any of the obnoxious taxes which be had just described,
the malt t ix, the assessed taxes, or any of the remain
ing host of nameless tax's by which the middle orders of
society were oppressed, and social life disturbed and ha-
rassed, must, he should conceive, vote in support of the
present motion ; or, by opposing it, deny to the Govern
went the necessary means of self preservation. He con•
ceived then, upon every ground, affecting as well the
popularity at the King's Government as the character of
time Reformed Parliament and the feelings of the whole
constitu.ncy by which it had been elected, that the present
moti-m ought to command the assent of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters and the House of Commons. The question was
one which went home to the common sense of every order
of men in the nation. It was eminen•ly a practical sub
jest ; there was nothing speculative, nothing fanciful, no-
thing Utopian in it. The people from one end of the
kingdom to the other were anxiously looking forward to
some measure which should conduce to their solid and
permanent relief ; and considering to what little purpose
two months of the session had been already expended, and
how small a portion of the public expectation bad to that
hour been satisfied, he &and their constituents, if a motion
of this nature were rejected, would ask universally, " Of
what use is your boasted Reform ?"
Mr. O'CONNELL would vote for this inquiry. The
motion did not pledge them to a property tax. All they
had to do was to consider if it was proper to institute au
inquiry whether the system of taxation might not be so
altered as to press more upon property anti less upon in-
dustry. The system of taxation at present was extretnely
unequal. The assessed taxes pressed heavier on the poorer
classes than on the richer ; and the small house in town
was rated high, while the great house in the country was
assessed at a comparatively low rate. The stamp duties
also bore heavier on the lower classes than tin the higher ;
and the excise in general was liable to the same objection
Nothing, indeed, was so blomeable in point of principle
as the excise with respect to improvements in manu-
factures. It seemed, in fact, actually to prohibit improve-
ment, by introducing into the workshop a species of tyranny
exercised by excise officers, without whom the imposts
could not be enforced, and a legal despotism which ren-
dered changes in the process of manufactures almost im-
possible. The motion did not, of necessity, involve any
consideration of a property or income tax. It was merely
a motion for an inquiry. The House had already rejected
a motion for an inquiry into the distress of the country;
aryl since no relief hitherto had been promised, it was at
least the duty of a Reformed House of Commons to in-
quire. For these reasons he should vote for the motion.

Mr. P. THOMSON observed, that from the wanner
in which the Hon. Member fir Dublin had expressed him-
self respecting the object of the motion, he could scarcely
believe that he had heard the proposition. He had said
that this was merely a motion to inquire into the distri-
bution of taxation without having for its object the intro
duction of any particular de.cription of tax, hut what was
the account given of That matter by the Hon. Member
himself who made the motion ? He had proposed the re-
peal of 15,000,0001. of taxes, and the substitution of a
tax on property. That was a sufficient ground, in his
opinion, for opposing the motion; but there were other
groumls, and he would mention two. In the first place,
he did not think it advisable to refer the consideration of
a great principle to a Committee of the House instead
of having it decided by the whole House. Let the plan
be freely debated within these walls. Let the Hun.
Member who proposed these changes come down with
some feasible plan, and not talk vaguely of a property
or income tax, when no man can tell what sort of a
measure they intend to designate by these terms.
Another ground ou which he objected to the motion
was, that they did not now stand in the same situation
as they were placed in at the time when he brought
forward his motion, to which the Chancellor of the Ex
chequer had given his concurrence, and which, he had
expressly stated at the time, had not the introduction of a
property tax for its object, inasmuch as several of the
taxes which he had proposed to repeal had, since that
tune, been repealed. He had proposed ,o take off the
taxes on six articles to the amount of 211,000/. The
taxes on four of these articli-s had been repealed ; and it
bad been attempted to repeal another (that on glass);
but no means having been found to supply the deficiency
of the revenue which would have ari-en, his Majesty's
Ministers had been compelled to abandon their intentions
in that respect. There was no part of the speech of his
Noble Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) with
wbieli be more cordially agreed than that in which he

observed, that although great advantage would ultimate;:
result from a change in the system of tax aim, the item -
diate of would be the disturbance and unsettling of ti
great interests of the country; and that they ought not,
th,refore, to have recourse to any such scheme until the;
had long considered the subject in as its bearings. lit
believed, he repeated, that the effect of a change in thi
mode of taxation would, for a time, unhinge all the grea'
interests of the country. At the same time he was not
unfriendly to the principle of change, and to the substitu
tion of whet taxes fer those which press too heavily to:
the lower classes. He reeretted that no gentleman hart
favoured the House wi'h an explanation of the nature or
the property tax which was spoken of. He would not
forestal the duello which was promised hetw•en the
Hon. Member for Oldham anti his Right lion. Friend,
but would merely observe, that if the stamp duty on bills
were increased in the ratio recommended by the Hon.
Member for Oldham, the duty on a bill. of Exchange fro
10,0001. would be about 751. ; the consequence of which
of course would be that no bills to a large amount n ould
be drawn, and that recourse must he ha I to the old system
of barter. There was one point of the deepest importance
which he called upon the House to consider. If a pro•
perty tax were imposed to the full extent which Hon.
Gentlemen advised, what would become of the capital of
the country? It was said that such a tax would reach
absentees. Why they would take all their property with
them. He hail been that morning looking at an account
of the taxes which had been remitted since the war. He
had examined them under two heads—the taxes pressing
on productive industry, and the taxes on property. It,
made that division, however, in compliance with the ex
pressions used by others rather than with reference to his
own view of the subject; tor to him it appeared that all
taxes, however levied, must be eventually paid by labour.
In order, however, to prevent lion. Gentlemen from
running away with the idea that the country had experi-
enced no relief fret) taxation, he begged leave to state that
the total amount of the taxes which had been repealed
since the war was 34,137,000/. In that sum was inclu-ted
the property tax, the amount of which was 14,600,0001.
Since the year 1819 or 1820,there had been repealed taxes
on articles principally consumed by ,the lower classes, or
which in his opinion was a matter of more importance, on

the raw material, and other articles used in ma-
nufactured, no less a sum than 16.864,000/. Thos,
articles had been principally soap, coffee, tobacco, silk,
windows, beer, le-ether, candles, printed cotton, &c. Under
the present circumstances, when the revenue •ery little
exceeded the expenditure, the utmost caution ought to be
used on the subject. When it was proposed to repeal at
once a tax producing 4 500,0001., h. hoped Han. Gen-
.

tlemen would have some little regard for the engagements
which the country had contracted; and that they would
not allow themselves, in consequence of any immediate
call on the part of their constituents, to do any thing
which might materially affect public credit ; for he w,04
persuaded that those constituents were far too honest and
upright to entertain a deliberate wish to relieve themselves
from taxation at such a price. It should he always kept
in memory, that all but fourteen millions of the revenue
was engaged in a manner to which the public faith was
solemnly pledged. In disposing of that fourteen millions,
he trusted that the Government with which he nad the

honour to be connected, had not shown any indisposition
to economise as far as was possible.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY proceeded to observe that the
speech of the Right Hun. Vice-President of the Board
of Trade, although, as uste,l, one of considerith'e
had littb• bearing on the qui stion before the House. In
the first pl ice, the Right Hon. Gentleman accus• d the
Hon. Member for Worcester of not sufficiently defining
his notion of what the proposed property tax ought to be.
It was not necessary that the Hon. Member for Worcester
should do so ; that was a subject to be consideted in the
Committee. The Right Hon. Gentleman had assailed
the proposition for a tax on property, because he knew
that, on that point, at least, he was addressing a partial
audience. Among other arguments, he had urged
that it would not touch absentees. But if people went
away from the country, they must leave their property
behind them subject to taxation, or they must find
customers for it, which customers would also be sub-
ject to taxation. And as to the funds, it was the twenty•
eight millions of interest on the funds which would be
taxed, and the amount of that tax would be the same
whether consols were at 60 or at par. Ai to the notion
f abs ntees carrying away their property, unless they could
'ravel like snails with their houses on their backs, he could

oot conceive such a pos4ibiiity. The Hon. Member for
Oldham had en le4voured to throw an odium upon the
proposition of the Hon. Member for Worcester, by th,
use of a single word ;he h-id declared that a graduated
property tax would be a confiscation. Why, all taxes, in
one sense of the expression, were a confiscation. His (Mr.
Harvey's) notion of a graduated property tax was, Pot a
tax which would seize the whole of any property, but a
t a which would apply with equal weight to prop-rty of
equal amount. For instance, that if property hf 2001.
a year weretaxed two per cent., tkat pr-prty of 10,000/.
a year might be taxed five per cent., and property of
20.000/. a year twenty per cent. Confi.catiou ! Could
there be a more infamous system of confi cation than that
which, by the present system, was carrying on against
the industry of the country ? The average wages of a
labourer were 12s. a week, or 30/. a year. Of this sum
it had been ascertained, by able calculators, that 33 per
cent. was struck off for taxes paid by the labourer on neces-
sary articles or consumption; in other words, that 101. out

of 30/ were taken from him. But what was the case with a
man of 30,000/. a year? To suhj.•ct him to equal confisca-
tion, 10,000/. of his income ou2ht to be taken from him.
But as matters stood, he !MLitt, if he chose, live on 3001.
a-year, and invest the remaining 29,700/. in the funds,
which were protected from all taxation. He would ask
the Hon. Member for Essex anti his colleague, if there
was any subject in the district which they represented, on
which so intense an interest was excited, as on this sub-
ject of a graduated property tax ? The public mind was

impressed with an idea that there was a general di•po.si-
tton on the part of his M ijesty's Government to look at
the subject of taxa'ion with a generous wish to relieve the
industrious classes of the community ; and yet his 11.1 -

jesty's Ministers now opposed a motion fora Committee to
inquire into the subject, and to substitute for the present
oppressive taxation a graduated property tax. tinder
such circumstances, what relief could the public expect?
'There were two classes of individuals in that Housy, both
eager for the repeal of taxation, but rivals with respect to
the mode by which that rep .al was to be effected.
The representatives of the landed interest claimed the
repeal of the malt tax; while those connected wish
towns and manufactures were equally pressing for the
repeal of the assessed taxes.—(Hear.) But how could
either of these parties redeem the pledges which they
had made to their constituents, if they recognised the
validity of the declaration made by his Majesty's Govern-
ment, that they were not prepared even to sanction the
appointment of a Committee to inquire into the subject ?
He would advise the country Members to tell their consti-
tuents at once that they need not trouble themselves upon
the subject, for that his Majesty's Ministers would not
take off the tax on malt ; and he would advise town
Members to tell theit constituents to be quiet, for that his
Majesty's Ministers would not take off the tax on houses
and windows. According to the doctrine maintained by
the Right Hon. Vice-President of the Board of Trade, it
was impossible to hope that any efficient relief would be
afforded to the people; for that Right lion. Gentleman ban
truly stated, that the amount of revenue on which a dimi-
nution could be effected was only fourteen millions. The
most, therefore, that could be expected from that source
was but a million or so, and that would go but little way—
five baskets of fishes would go but little way among so
many. Nothing could be more clear to him than this, hat
although they might drive the matter off for one session,
the time was rapidly approaching when they must either
diminish the burdens of the people, or give theta the
means of sustaining those burdens. " But (said the
Right Hon. Gentleman), how restless you all are !
Thirty-four millions of taxes have been repealed since
the war." True ; but did the Hon. Gentleman recollect
that the burden of taxation depended, nut so much upon
the amount of the taxation, as upon the means which the
people had to support it; and that the people might be
better able to pay the larger taxation in 1514 that the
smaller taxation of the present slay? Let the House re-
collect, that if they acceded to the present motion for r
Committee to inquire into the expediency of repealing
taxes, and substituting a graduated property tax, they
would do so as free agents. But would that be the case
two or three years hence? Now we Inight substitute
such a tax—then we must do so. But it was always the
evil of British legislation that it came too late. Our mea-
sures were always adopted in hurry and alarm; they were
never the result of sober and dispose ovate reasoning, but
were hatched in the dark, and under adverse and adventi-
titan • circumstances. Instead of conceding with a good grace,
we deferred concession until it was wrung from us by
necessity and violence.

Mr. -HALCOMBE said that the object of the present
motion was not to embarrass or inconvenience Ministerp,
and that he should vote for it, on the general ground that i.
was expedient to institute an inquiry into the subject.
No man would be pledged to the result of the investiga.
tion, and it would affGrd the means of ascertaining whetht
any substitute could be found fur 17 millions of tixe•,
The Noble Lord (Aithorp) had not declared himself altogi,
her adverse to a property tax, and the Right Hon. Vic,
Yi esident of the Board of Trade had not expressed hiitisel

d ceitledly hostile to an income tar; and this very incer
• n , comp iris with the
ainty afforded a strong
motion of the Hon. Member for Worcester. As the
Church Property Bill had been mentioned, he hoped to
b . allowed to request Hon. Members to look very care-
fully into its provisions.—(Question. question.) As he was
new Member, he threw himself on the u nal c urrisy of
the House, especially as he was only advert nv t , a topic
eady introdu• ed by others.—(Hear, end Q
I was not to be disputed that the King was th- eiiard'an of
church property.— (Cr es of " Qu-stion," d r
toms of impatience.) Th it 811 would at oo a put an
ul to the trustee,hip of the Crown as ',garde(' chi re!,
.iroperty—(Question)—and he believed that many of its
a tvocates were not aware that it would establish what was
at present contrary to the law of the land.—(Hear, and
Question.)
Mr. PEASE thought that the ap. ointment of a Com-
mittee !nigt lead to some desirable cool ~ut aion of taxei,,
and if the inquiry took place without delay, the result
h
would possifily have an important effect up..n the forth-
coming budget. Much of the present taxation bore with
unjust and unnecessary severity upon the lower orders,
md the inequality called loudly for a remelt'. He illus-
trated this po nt by reference to the opera ion of the tax
upon pest-her-es and the duty upon bricks, and contended
that there was a clear and an important distinction be-
tween a property tax and an income tax, much in favour
of the former. One great advantage of a property tax
would be, that it could be collected -o cheaply; for at pre-
sent, of the 16 or 17 millions imposed. not more than,
perhaps, 12 or 13 millions found its way into the Treasury.
Mr. ROBINSON, in reply, said that, supported as 11c,
was by the general feelin-ls of the Hulse, and by what he
must consider the concessions which hail been made 1:y
ninisters in favour of the principle of a pr, perry tax, he
would press his motiin to a division.

The Honce then divided—
For Mr. Robinson's motion
Against it
Majority
THE REV G. DWYER.

Mr. RUTHVEN moved for a return of the copy of
the record of the cnnviction and sentence of the Rev. G.
Dwyer at the Loughrea Quarter Sessions, with a copy of
the Indictni,nt upon which he was tried ; also a copy of
the written information belore the said Court of the com-
plaint of the widow Kempesay against the Rev. Gentle-
man for an assaub, of which he h id been convicted.

Mr. STANLEY opposed the motion, and characterised
it as a paltry and-personal proceeding, which the }louse
ought not to sanction.

klr. O'CONNELL hoped his Hon. Colleague would
withdraw his motion.

SIR EDWARD CODRINGTON.

Sir R. PEEL hoped the House would allow him that
opportunity of entering into the explanation which an
lion. and Gallant Admiral (Sir E. Co,rington) had de,
mantled of him last night.—(Hear.) By the Hon. and
Gallant Admiral's own admission he had delayed calling
for the explanation for years, and the reason be had as-
signed for not bringing it forward sooner was, because he
did not entertain any hope that his appeal for justice could
b, made with effect to any hut a Reformed Parliarstent.—i
(Cheers, and " No, uo.")—Did the Hon. and Gailont
Admiral deny that he had said this ?
Sir E. CODRINGTON had never wished to postpone
the matter. On the contrary, be had written letters to Lord
Melville on the subject, and he had had sever.:l interviews
with his Lordship, who promised to speak to the Ricbt
Han. Baronet abo'tt it ; but, not being saisfi,id that Lord
Melville had done so, he (Sir E. Cudrington) :iad himself
spoken to Mr. W. Peel, and requested that he would men-
tion it to the Right Hon. Baronet.
Sir R. PEEL—What was the tim;:, what was the date,
of these communications ?

sir E CODRINGTON could not recollect the precise
dates, but he thought the communications alluded to took
place within the la three years.

Sir R. PEEL had understool from the manner in
which the Hon. and Gallant Admiral had spoken, • that
they were much more recent. The Hon. and Gallant
Admiral looked with confidence to the Reformed PArlia.,
aient for redress ; but, although he (Sir Robert Peel)
Oad opposed Reform, he still would with equal confidence
also appeal to the same tribunal in his own vindication, as
lie knew he was addressing a body of English gentlemen,
who would be guided in their decision by the evidence and
facie laid before them, and not by pirty feelings or bias.—
(Hear.) The question was, not whether certain expre,-
sions were attributed to him in Galignani's Messenger,
or any other newspaper, but the point at issue between
them was, d:d he (Sir R. Peel), in performance of his duty
a, a r,..potisilile Minister of the Crown, make a statement
to !hat anise inconsistent with fact, and bearing hardly
and illiberally upon the Hon. and Gallant Admiral ? That
was the real question, and the statement to which the
Hon. and Gallant Admiral had alluded was made about
five years ago, on the 3d of April, 1828.
. _

Str E. CODRINGTON said that that w is the date.
Sir R. PEEL had never before taken such pains to ar-
rive at the exact truth, and it was his intention to refer
to the reports of his speech upon the occasion adverted to,
contained in two Morning Papers which had ever been
opposed to him in politics, arid to adopt them. The papers
to which he referred were the Times and the Morning
Chronicle. He was not responsible for what appeared in
those papers, but he would not shield himself by stating
that the speeches attributed to him were inaccurate. On the
contrary, he would at mice say that he was ready to stand
by the substance of those reports, and having done so, he
would undertake to vindicate that substance. The whole
question would turn upon whether, in the speeches to
which the ch irge of the Gallant Admiral referred, they
were faithful interpretations of the intentions of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, and to prove that they were so would be
the object to which he would strictly confine himself.
The filet occasion on which Parliament was callea upon
to express an opinion regarding the battle of Navarin was
on the motion for a vote of thanks to the Hun. and Gal-
lant Admiral for his services on that occasion. The =-
tier) he (Sir R. Peel) felt called upon to oppose; but he
put it to those who remembered his speech in doing so
whether his opposition was offered in such a temper as to
induce the supposition that he was induced to act with
injustice to the Hon. and Gallant Admiral.—(Hear, hear.)
Even the mover of the vote of thanks, the present Secretary
at War (Sir J. C. Hoblioutte), and his colleague, the Hon.
Baronet the Member for Westminster (Sir F. Burdett),
admitted that he (Sir R. Peel) had placed the qtiestion on
such grounds as fully warranted the withdrawal of the
motion.—(Hear, hear.) The more immediate charge of the
Hon. and Gallant Admiral related, however, to a speech
delivered on the 3d of April, 1825, in reply to a ques-
tion proposed by Sir Robert Wilson, as to whether any
official advices had been received by the Government, or
any information giving an explanation of the liberty give")
to the Egyptian fleet, while laden with Greek captives,
to pass unmolested, and also as to whether any measures
had been taken by England, in concert with her allies,
for redeeming the Greek slaves? To this question what
was his (Sir Robert Peel's) reply ?—(The Right Hun.
Baronet here read, from Mr. Hansard's Padiarnentary
Debates, a long extract from the report attributed to
him on that occasion, the purport of which was, that
instructions had been given previous to the battle of
Navarin, which of course were to be considered as
remaining in force after that battle, to prevent any
removal of the Egyptian Beet, except for time removal
of the army from the Morea to Alexandria or Constan-
tinople.)—One of the main charges which the Hon. and
Gallant Admiral had made, relived to the over-statement
at the number of the Greek captives which it was proved
had been conveyel to and sold at Alexandria. Now so
fur from such a charge being applicable to him, he did
dietincily deny the assertion of Sir Robert Wilson that the
number of Greek captives amounted to sixteen or seventeen
thousand souls, alleging, what be still believed was much
nearer the real fact, that the number at the very utmost
amounted to but six hundred.—(Cries of " Hear, he tr,
hear.") The next charge he had brought against htm•
related to the period at which positive instructions were
sent out to the British Admiral to prevent a continuance
of Inc transportation of these Greek captives. The Hon.
and Gallant Admiral had found fault, great fault, with
him for saying that direct instructions were despatched
within forty-eight hours after the confirmation of the
sale of the Greeks at Alexandria had reached the
British Government. Whether be had made use of the
words " forty-eight" be was not able to say ; but he cer-
tainly bad said that the instructions were issued " imme-
diately" upon the communication to which he alluded
being received.—( Hear, hear, from Sir E. Colrington.)
Now he appealed to the House to decide what was the
meaning of that term " immediately." At all events the
meaning which he affixed to it was, that as soon as the
requisite arrangements, namely, a conference and the issuing
of a protocol, could be gone through, the instruction was
despatched.—(Hear, hear.) But what, in point of tact,
was the interval which elapsed between the receipt of the
communication and the issuing of the instructions? Al
the utmost, sixty hours.—(Hear, bear.) On the 19th of
March the communication was received, and on the 23d
ot March the instructions were issued.—(hear.) Having
thus, he conceived, refuted the two charges which the
Hon. and Gallant Admiral had brought against him, he
had only to observe that, if he (Sir E. Codrington) felt
inclined to move for any docum tits calculated. to throw a
light upon the subject, be would he most happy to second
his motion.--( Hear, hear.)
Sir E. CODRINGTON said if the Right Hon. Bar net
bad given his explanation at the pero.l that iae (Sir E.