The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-24 00:00:00

STATE OF IRELAND.

Earl GREY, in rising to move that an humble ad-
dress be presented to her Majesty, relative to the state of
Ireland, felt bound to apologise to their Lordships far
thus bringing forward a subject of such extreme
difficulty, and to which he felt unable to do justice.
The measures which had been introduced with re-
ference to Ireland, were, in his judgment, of
such a character as to render it imperative on
the House to take the earliest opportunity, after
having seen these Bills, of declaring by their assembled
votes that those measures were in themselves quite in
adequate to cure the social evils by which Ireland had
been so long afflict d, and that they were only justified
on the supposition that they were intended to give time
for the application of other and more effectual remedies.
—(Hear.) In bringing this subject befues them, unfor-
tunately, there was but little need to dwell upon the un•
happy condition of Ireland. The Noble Lurd opposite
had described the state of society as most
awful to contemplate—as a state of society
in which there was no security to life or pro-
perty—as a state of society in which the extrems
wretchedness was most appalling, in consequence of the
partial failure of the potato crop, a failure which sea-
likely to lead to famine and pestilence, unless counter-
acted by the measures introduced by her Majesty's
Government. The ordinary condition of that coun-
try was one of wretchedness and lawlessnes. It
was so described by every competent authority, and
there was no intelligent foreigner who pushed his in-
quiries as far as Ireland but gave it this description.
It was a disgrace and a reproach to any country, a
standing disgrace to England, that Ireland should re-
main in the position in which it was. It was a
greater disgrace because this state of things had been
created by our on n policy. The Government of
Ireland before the Union was else moat ingeniously
bad that was ever contrived—it was the Govern
ment of a corrupt minority sustained by the su-
perior power of the Parliament of this country, and it
triumphed over the good legislation of those opposed to
it, and left behind it fatal and irreparable evils.
The Union, however, was a matter of history. Halt
a century, or more than fifty years, had elapsed
since that measure was carried, and for nearly fifty
years Ireland had been under the control of the
Imperial Parliament of England. Another generation
had since grown up, and was now passing away and
giving place to another ; and he asked what impression
had been made on the evils of Ireland since that time ?
He could not deny that many good measures had been
passed, and he was the first to acknowledge and approve
of them. After commenting upon the report of the Com-
missioners, the Noble Lord referred to the declaration
of Sir James Graham, that we held military occupa-
tion of Ireland, and that that country could not be
governed by any other means—that it was occupied
by troops, but not governed like England. Should it be
told him that the condition of Ireland was in such a state
that it was impossible for them to alter it, he would
say that that was a libel upon common sense, unless,
indeed, it was not in the wish of the Legislature to
alter it. Ireland was gifted by nature with great
resources. She had great coasts and harbours—
she had great water-courses—and, indeed, her great
natural resources were not to be denied.—(ilear.)
He was not cf opinion that evils of so long standing
could be remedied all at once, but he was
persuaded that if the consideration of them wa,
undertaken with proper earnestness and singleness
of purpose, and without regard to preconceived
opinions, that they could in a short time give evidence
of what could be done for the good of Ireland, in pro
clueing a better state of things than what at present
esisted, as well as a better ordered community. He
repeated, that if Parliament discharged the duty
which was incumbent upon it, no despair should be
entertained of success, far they might depend that the
blessing of Providence would attend their endea-
vours. But he could not forget that the perma-
nent employment of the Irish people depended
upon private enterprise and capital being ex-
tensively employed in that country.—(Hear, hear.) No
country could be in a wholesome state that depended
upon the Government for mere artificial means of em-
ployment. When they looked at the present
state of that country, and the amount of em-
ployment given to the people by the Govern-
ment, they should see that it would be literally and en-
tirely inadequate to the purposes for which it was in-
tended. Ever since the union large sums of money had
been provided by the Government for the completion of Irish
works, but he believed, nay, he greatly feared, that much of
the money which had been granted had been to a very large
jobbed.—(Hear,
which
hed.
e s-g-
-h(tHear, hear.) Ile did hope that the mea-
sures obtain the sanction of that House—he did
hope h
o
measures, would have the effect of providing
extentwt
might
more than mere temporary advantage—should they have the
advantage of obtaining the sanction of the other portion of the
Legislature. He believed that the provision for public works
was in the highest degree useful ; but even these, useful as
they might be, would never alone have the advantage of giving
an impetus to private enterprise, and of eliciting that
commercial spirit through which alone anything like
a permanency would be given to enterprise in Ireland and
the employment of capital for national improvement. For
these reasons he feared they must not flatter themselves that
they would succeed in their present attempts to establish good
order and peace in the country, by the exercise of the ordi-
nary powers of the law. But the great object which they had
now to obtain was to establish peace, and security, and con-
fidence, by the exercise of those powers, and not by the en-
forcing of temporary and arbitrary laws. He would now come
to the special object of his motion, and in doing so he was
bound to say that he did not see, in the measures which the
Government proposed, anything that was likely to produce this
result. There was nothing in them likely to have the happy
effect of producing unanimity, without the exercise of thous
strong powers which he was compelled thus to deprecate.
He was compelled to say, that there was nothing which gave
him the assurance that the ferment now existing in-that coun-
try was likely to be subdued by the measures before their
Lordshipv, nor could he hope anything better from the matters
under the consideration of the other branch of the Legislature.
Was there anything to assure them that in Oct. 1849 they would
be freed from the necessity, in order to obtain peace, from pass-
ing some measure equal y as despotic as that to which he had
alluded ?—( Hear, hear.) He would assure their Lordship's
that his conviction was quite the other way, and ho thought the
great duty imposed upon them was to ascertain what measures
were necessary to obtain the object which he had laid before them.
Let them compare the difference between England and Ireland,
when some great crime was committed. In this country, if a mur-
der had been committed, and the culprit had escaped, the news-
papers, if the culprit were known, carried his description over the
breadth of the land—an hundred eager eyes were on the watch
for him—all to whom suspicion could attach were taken into
custody, hurried before the magistrate ; and in this way it was
that the real culprit seldom escaped. But in Ireland the popu-
lace did not interfere to secure the murderer and bring him to
justice; on the contrary, the whole body of the people were
banded to screen and protect him, and to such an extent was
this feeling carried, that the greatest disgrace which could
attach to an Irish peasant was that he gave the slightest assist-
ance to the officers of the law. The character of informer,
were the name attached in Ireland, was as much as a man's
life was worth. What was the definition of the term informer
in Ireland as compared with the same term in England ? In
England informer was understood to mean a man who fer gain, or
for the purpose of obtaining a penalty a4ainst another, would lay
an information for some infraction of the law, frequently of the
most light and venial description. That was the informer in
England. But what was the meaning of the term informer in
Ireland? The informer in Ireland was a man who dared to
give information to the officers of the law of the commission
of crime. Their Lordships were told the other night of the
extreme danger of giving evidence by the son or wife of a man
who had been, perhaps, unhappily murdered ' • that man wad, per-
haps, dragged out of bed at the midnight hour by a band of
hired assassins, and in the presence of his wife and child inhu-
manly and basely murdered, and yet that wife or child, al-
though they knew the assassins by name—although they could
well describe them—dared not do so, as, in Irish definition,
they would be hunted down as informers. That persons, even
under this strong provocation,- could not venture to give infor-
mation to justice was most melancholy and alarming ; and it was
well known that for the protection of witnesses in former years,
where a man gave evidence on behalf of the Crown, in the
case of murder, as soon as the trial was over, the Crown was
obliged to allow the expenses of emigrating to the man, that
he might leave for the colonies. ae his life was no
longer safe in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Their object must be
to change this temper and disposition, and, he asked, had the
Coercion Bill any tendency to de so? Were the revere previs

sions that they were compelled to adopt, when endeavouring to.
suppress crime, of any avail, while the people continued im-
bued with the spirit he was endeavouring to describe? Were
these severe provisions calculaeed to reconcile the people to the
exiting law, and to induce them to look upon the English as
their friends. instead of as their enemies? This Bill was of a
source like the dram of the drunkard, rho, in the fit of intole-
rable depression which succeeded Lis excesses, knew that a
1, esh excess would give him temporary relief, rind to that ex-
cess ha applied. The feet was, that the measure would be
some redress for the moment for the commission of crime, but
it had no tendency to take away the spirit which caused their
greatest difficulty in the administration of the law. That such
would be the result was proved by reason, and also by expe-
rience. Had not measures of greater severity been tried long
enough (and without much regard to the degree of severity
employed) without effect? He found, in a speech made lay the
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government,
in the year 1829, in introducing to the House the measure in
which he proposed the removal of the Catholic disabili-
ties, the histories of the measures which had been adopted
in Ireland. He said that, in the year 1809, we find
that the Hobe .s C0r,.114 Act was suspended, and the
Act for the suppression of rebellion was in force ;
in 1501 it continued in force, as also in 1802. In 1803 the in-
sureetion for which E.t.a:nett suffered began, and Lord Kul-
warden was murdered by a savage mob. In 1801 the Act con-
tinued, arid in 1806 the west and lentil of lielaed were in a
state of insubordination, difficult to repress by the ordinary
course of the law. Jo 1837, in consequence of the increase of
insubordination, the Insurrectien Act was increased in power,
giving to the Lord Lieutenant the power of pleping, by procla-
mation, any district out of the pale of ordinary law. It sus-
pended trial by jury, and made it a transportable tff-nce to be
out at any period from sunset to sunrise. It continued in force
from 1807, through 1808, 800, to the close of 1810. In the
year 1814 the Information Act sti'l continued, and through the
Sears 1815, 1810, and 1817. In 1822 it wag again renewed,
during the years 1823 and 1826. In i&2e a esnperary Act
intended for the suppression of dangerous associations, and

especially the Catholic association, which was continued during
18'26,1827, and expired in 1828. In 1829 a now demand arose
for tb abolition of the whole Act—but he would
not continue 614 pl-4i4ful history—only four years
afterwards, it was again iaunti necessary, a shirt time alter Sir
Robert Peel came into power, to introduce a similar measure
of the severest kind. That measure, or at lea3t a great part

of its provisions, were renewed in 1824, and it expired only
four or five years ago ; and now again, in the year 1846, they
were called upon to rep it, Site]; t9s the result which
xperience t,howed to have been obtained by wiere coercion.
Such was the eximple they had; and if their efforts were

used in the proper direction, they would be able to prevent,
by rigorous measures, the commission of crime. They had the
prospect of restoring real seeesity to Ireland. lie contended
then that they must look further than they had hitherto done ;
that they must look to the root of the evil, and see whether
it was not possible to change the temper of the people, to
effect a reconciliation between them and their rulers.—
( Ch. ere.) To make them friend; instead of Gi,porients of
the administration of the law. This was the object to which
their efforts ought to be directed, and it was the object which,
if the efforts to which he had referred were honestly
directed, they should be able to attain. It was true
the task was a most difficult one, because they had to erase
from the minds of the Irish people the deep impression of long
ages of mis-government—they had to convince them that their
rulers had both the will and the power to serve and promote
their happiness and prosperity. This was what they had to
accomplish, and he should endeavour to show what, with that
aid, he theeght they would he able to establish in Ireland.
In the first place, he said, they must endeavour to convince
the people that the law really existed for their benefit. They
must amend the law both in its provisions and in its adminis-
tration, for both are defective, He was of opinion that the
law as it is now in Ireland was quite inadequate, as it effected
the poor man. It was so more especially as to the landed
tenure of Ireland. This was said to be the fact by the
Secretary for Ireland. That Noble Lord said, that the state
of the law as to the occupation of land in that country was the
root of the evil in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He (Earl
Grey) believed that injustice could take place under the
present state of the law, with respect to the
land question in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He should like to
know from her Msjesty's Ministers, vshethtr there was any
truth in a statement with respect to an affair at Roscommon ;
,f the paragraph which he had read in a paper was true, it
was most dreadful. There were, it was said, three or four
hundred persons tusned off their land, where they had been for
years; they were turned out to starve without as much as a
place to lay their heads in. He trusted he was mistaken ; he
sincerely trusted that the paragraph was not correct. He be-
lieved; that a resort to such measures was most unjust. He
thought that when a lease fell out, to resort to such an extreme
measure was a disgrace to humanity—it was a disgrace to civi-
lised life. It was well known that whatever little draining
took place of land in Ireland was not paid for by the
landlord, but by the tenant. He did think it hard, that when
poor men, who had toiled upon the land for years, and after
giving it a double value by the improvements of their capital and
labour, that they should then tie turned off, if the land-
lord to whom they had paid their rent, had failed to pay it to his
superior landlord. This evil was to be traced to the practice of
cub-letting land in that country.
A NOBLE LORD—That is also the practice in England.
Earl GREY—That may be the law in this coun'ry,
but it was well known it was never acted upon to
anything like the extent that it was in Ireland. He
had heard of an instance of a poor man who had taken
half an acre of ground upon a plan that was called the conacre
system, for which he paid 91., and from which he was to derive
patatoes sufficient for the maintenance of his family.—( Cries of
" Name.") This, he was informed, was a common practice in
the county of Waterford. This poor man had a person over
him who got into arrear to his sujericr, the head landlord.
That head landlord, not having been paid his rent, seized upon
this poor man's crop, placed a keeper upon him, snatched from
him the means of existence, and he would not be even told for
what or for how much he had been seized upon. But, in order
to ascertain this fact, the poor man actually committed an
assault upon the keeper, in order that the fasts of the case might
come before the public. Now this was a class of cases which
the law in its present state could not reach. Now, in order to
remedy such a state of things, he conceived that the Govern-
ment did take a step which appeared to him the most im-
prudent and injudicious that could well have been adopted. A
measure of a somewhat similar nature was introduced by Mr.
Sharman Crawford; but was withdrawn, upon the understand-
ing that a remedy would be applied ; and in the next session
the speech from the throne announced that a Commis-ion had
been issued for the purpose of making► the necessary inquiry.
Upon the debate which took place in February, 1844, upon a
motion of Lord J. Russeelt, he ( Lord Grey) took the liberty
of expressing his regret that such a Co mission should have
been issued, inasmuch as it would have the effect of creating
exaggerated expectations in the minds of the people of Ireland
that would never be realised. The present increase of agrarian
outrages was, in his opinion, traceable to it. It had given
rise to impressions among those who lived upon agriculture that
they were no longer to be the tenants, but the occupiers of the
soil. He did not mean to charge the Government with
attempting to stave off the consideration of a difficult measure
by appointing this Commission. He did not mean to charge
them with such a deriliction of duty, but he did charge them
with an unpardonable imprudence for the manner in which
they had dealt with it. He said now that not a moment should
be lest in taking the question up and dealing with it as
the circumstances seemed to require, not in the spirit of a
technical lawyer, but in the spirit of statesmen—not to
arrange the laws affecting civil property in an equivocal
and partial manner, but on the broad foundation of equity. A
reform conceived in such a spirit was now absotutuely necessary,
and he sincerely hoped the Government would set about it.
It was not the mere letter of the law, which should be im-
proved, nor its technical provisions, but they must also improve
its administration.—( Hear, hear.) A Noble Friend of his,
whom he regretted not to see in his place, had remarked that
he (Lord Grey) had gone teo far in saying that there was one
law for the rich and another for the poor in Ireland, but he
would go still further and say, that not only was that the case,
but that both were hl administered. Since 1841 a change for
the worst had taken place in reference to this ; less confidence
was now felt by the people of Ireland in the administration of
the law than before. This was to be attributed to the hot and
eager, and virulent partizanship displayed by the Government
in placing the administration of justice in the hands of men who'
had not the confidence of the people. That practice also, which
existed from 1835 to 1341, of exciading men from juries on
account of their religion, has been again to some
extent revived. Any thing mere objectionable or more
improper he could not well imagine. Better for them to put
an end to trial by jury altogether than to countenance such a
proceeding. No jury was far better than a pertizen jury. A
reform in the lass, limvever, and a reform in its administration,
were not the only pints which required their consideration.
As long as the Parliament which enacted the laws, and the
Government which enforced them, were objects of hostility
and contempt, instead of respect and confidence, so long would
discontent and disturbance prevail. lie knew that in express-
ing this opinion he was going against high authority—against
those who imagined that political discontent was essentially dif-
ferent from agrarian outrage. All the consideration which he
had given to the subject induced him to say that that was a
great mistake. He considered that agrarian outrage and poli-
tical agitation were essentially connected. So long as the cry
for the repeal of the union prevailed capital would never flow
into the country, and commercial enterprise never take root. It
appeared to him impossible to expect political discontent to
exist without exasperating the feeling of the people against the
law. The enforcement of the law should be the great object of
Government, but they could never bring the people to obey it,
or look upon it with respect, until they induced them to confide
in it. What, he would ask, was the character of the crimes com-
mitted in Ireland ? Since the notice which he had given of
that motion, another outrage had been committed. A magis-
trate had been shot. The crimes committed were not of the
same character as those committed in this country. They did
not proceed from a love of plunder, or from those motives which
generally promote their commission in other countries.
They were the work of private combinations and se-
cret societies. It must be evident, therefore, that if
the rules laid down to guide the relationship. between man and
man in that country were influenced by justice, the people
would soon learn to appeal to the regular tribune's of the
country to remedy their grievances, rather than to these
midnight legislators. He said that the desperate fidelity with
which they cleaved to this kind of legislation showed a desire on
their part to cling to those for whom they expected a redress
of their wrongs. Captain Rock and the repeal judges were
obeyed ; and so well too, that it was considered by Noble
Lords as giving evidence of the worst symptoms of the state
of Ireland. Does not the fact of their being so obeyed show
that, where they can be made to attach themselves, they are
obedient and amenable to control ? A consideration of these
circumstances led to the inference that to make the laws
effective and well obeyed the attachment of the people must be
gained. While the contrary is the case the laws will be power-
less, and a well organised state of society will never be
secured. He now thought that he had made out his propo-
sition that political agitation and social discontent were closely
connected. Noble Lords might say, in reply to that, "put
down the repeal agitation, then murder and social disturbance
will be also suppressed." Pefore that such a proceeding was
attempted, let them recollect that that experiment has been
already made, and not with a success which would encourage
its repetition. Even if they were to try and put it down, they
could only put down the external manifestation of it, and
that, too, by means repugnant to the spirit of the British
Constitution, and at variance with the feelings of Englishmen.
Let them remember, also, that the tendency of such an
attempt would be to alienate from their ranks a body of men
(he hoped a large body) who valued constitutional liberty.
While they kept aloof from the repeal agitation
the spirit which pervades the followers of repeal would
not be subdued. They must look to something
more effectual. They could not win men's hearts by force ;
they must win their affections, if they ever expected to govern
them well. It might be said that it would be impossible to do
this, or that nothing could turn them from repeal. No one in
that House could more firmly resist repealdli al himself, but lie
firmly believed that no nuiversal discontent ever yet prevailed,
unless there existed some grounds for it. The sufferers may
bs mistaken, but it was seldom found that a redress of real
grievances did not remove all complaint. An analogous case
occurred in Scotland. A discontent more hopeful than that
which existed in Ireland prevailed there in 1713, on the repeal
of the Union with this country. A motion was brought before
that House to dissolve the Union. Did they reject it by an
overwhelming majority, as the other House did the preposition
of the repeal of the Union with Ireland, which he considered
would not find a mover or a seconder in that House ? The result
was 54 in favor of the motion, and 54 against it, and it was only
by a majority of four proxies that the motion was rejected.
There were ✓seventeen proxies against the motion, and fourteen

in favour ot it. What was the consequence of that agitation ?
Parliament set about remedying the grievances of Scotland,
and she rues placed upen an equality with Enalend ii, every
constitutional right and psi, g arid the consequence was
that all desire for dissolving, the connection was removed, and
he did not believe that there was at that ens:merit elm advocate
in all Scotland for such a measure. Let them try the same
system siith Ireland. Let them adopt a similar mode of
procedure with regard to her grievances. Let them
grant such measures as Ireland would adopt if she had a
Parliament of her own. Let them adopt the- language made
use of by a Learned Prelate in his speech on the Maynooth
grant—" That they engaged, when they took the government
of Ireland into their own hands, to rule her as if she had her
own Parliament," Let him ask, had they lii-herio governed
Ireland in that spirit? Would an Irish Parliament have re-
fused Catholic emancipation in 1827 ? Would it have given
such a measure of corporation reform? Would it have acted
in the same way regarding the registration of waters ; and,
above all, as to the tithes and the Church, that that Parliament
had done ? Would their legislation have been the same ?
That was the test which they should apply to their
measures. He must now canto to that awful and
momentous question, the state el the Irish Church.
He was w ell aware that this was a subject upon which he should
meet with emu little sympathy from almost arty part of this
House ; hut still he should follow it up. It was admitted in
the year 1844, by the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment, that in every attempt to legislate for Ireland, the
great difficulty which met, the Government at every turn and
every step etas the Irish Church establishment; and whatever
Gogernment proposed a remedy for the grievances of Ireland,
they should be prepaearl to grapple with this difficulty. Now
let him ask their Lordships to consider what was the real state
of the case in this respect. They all knew that the property
and revenues of the Protestant Church were originally granted
so the Roman Catholic Churoli, ter tile; purprise of instructing
the mass of the soreusurrity in that ferns of Christi in faith is,
which the people would alone accept that institution —(Hear,
hear.) But, by the imperial and conquering power of this
country, those revenues were diverted from their original pur-
pose, and they were row at the disposal of a small minority
In a debate in this House last yeas!' a Noble Lord opposite
stated, ;heat the prapeety of the Irish Church ameunted to the
enormous sure or boo,ooo'. a year, the whole of which was
applied for the benefit of 700,000 or 800,003 persona; and
that such a state of things existed in a country, seven-eighths
of the population of which were Roman Catholics ; and the
Noble Duke opposite also stated, in the same debate, that those
seven eighths of the whole populations derived no benefit what-
ever from this endowment. But his Noble Friend (the Noble
arid Leerned Lord on the Woolstack ) had stated another fact,
namely, that since the ',Lion, the Established Church in Ire-
land
had received annually 595,000!. Now, just let the House
consider these facts well. First, they had the foot that the
minority of a large population, consisting of the wealthy
classes, had received a magnificent endowment. The
Presbyterians also, who were Dissenters as well as the
Roman Ca holies, had litewise been cared for. From
them the bounty of Government had not been withheld; while
to the Roman Catholics of Ireland who were by far the largest
in number, and to whose misery and destitution he had al-
ready alluded, the Government &eve no assistance whatever.
The Roman Catholics build their own chapels, and provide for
their own olergy, and yet these were the people for whom the
Government had literully done nothing.--( Hear, hear.) Let
him ask, then, was this a state of things that was likely to
prove satisfactory to the people of Ireland? Let them contras'
the scene presented by a Protestant church and a Roman Ca-
tholic chapel in any perish in the south of Ireland on a Sunday.
On the one hand, they saw, perhaps, the Protestant landlord,
with, it might be, one or two of his servants, occupying a cor-
Ler in a comfortable building, and listening to the Seiptures
explained by a well-educated and well-paid functionary.
On the other hand, a vast mass of the people—a mass
of that portion of the people whose labour gave
its value to -property, that portion of the people from whom
those magnificent grants he had just spoken off had been wrung
by violence and wrong—that class of people might be seen in
vast numbers, crowding the inadequate and misegable building
which their scanty means enabled them to provide for the
worship ofthe Divine Being; and those whom its limits were
not capable of aescommodat'on might be seen kneeling without
in hundreds upon the cold wet ground, Sunday after Sunday,
throughout the whole year. Let him ask, then, did this
House expect that a people so treated csuld bear such a state
of things wthout feeling a deep rankling sense of gross injus-
tice? But this was not the worst part of the case he had
to make out. If it were, and that they were content with
having their property thus wrung from them, and that justice
had been done them, in other respects in by-gone times, they
might, perhaps, have less cause of complaint. But smelt was
not the case ; for in spite of all this amount of wron arid in-
jury, the Protestant Church still was only known slid felt in
Ireland as the cause of oppression and injury for the lest cen-
tury and a half.—( Hear, hear.) These were strong' words,
he admitted, but not stronger or as stsong as the case required.
because one portion of the administration of the Irish Church
—he meant the tithe system—was the most atrocious and ini-
quitous that ever existed in any country of the vvoi Id ; and if
it was imposed upon the people of this country, they would de-
, nource it at once as a yoke which no pool le could bear. This
imposition was denounced in the years 1787 and 1788 in the
Irish House of Commons, in the burning eloquence of Grattan,
who only asked for such a mitigation of this system as would
afford the people of Ireland some temporary relief. His re-
' guest was refused, and that refusal it was that drew down from
him those memorable words, which denounced this tithe system
as the worst law that ever disgraced the statute book, and
which called forth his indignant denunciation of the whole
system of the Established Church in Ireland. His motion was
opposed by the Irish bishops, and it was their determine resist
ante alone that defied all his efforts, and which compelled him to
exclaim, with indignation, that to the Bishops of the Esta-
blished Church in Ireland was mainly to be attributed the
defeat of every effort for the improvement of the condition ot
the people of that country. He denounced the establishment
as grinding and oppressive in the last degree ; and he con-
cluded his memorable speech in words which few would now
be bold enough to use, but which he (Lord Grey) might
venture to quote, as the words of Mr. Grattan, and which
were to the effect that it would appear that religion could not
be supported without enormous wealth, and that Christ could
not be represented upon earth unless Mammon took Him by
the liand.—( Hear, bear.) Well, then, with regard to the
tithe system, it was only at a very recent period that a measure
was passed for the partial remedy of that law, and which was
called the Tithe Composition Act, and which eventually proved
to be no remedy at all. At a period still later, another Noble
Lord opposite proposed another remedy, but that was not until
the people had taken it into their own hands. Let him ask,
was this the mode calculated to endear the Protestant Cheetah
to the people of Ireland ? On the contrary, he would 'say that
the whole system was calculated to impress upon the minds of
the people a deep and lasting sense of hatred and enmity.
to the Establishment ; and they never attempted to propose
a remedy, until an agitation bad been raised demanding
emancipation in terms that could not be suppressed. But
all measures of justice were invariably 'refused upon the
ground that the safety of the Church Establishment in Ire-
land would be in danger. Did the House wonder, then, after
this, that a deep•rooted feeling should exist against the Esta
blishment? He would ask them to judge of the feelings ot
the people of Ireland by their own. Let him ask the Right
Rev. Prelate the Bishop of London, what his feelings might
be, if the revenues of his see were to be given for the instruc-
tion of the few Roman Catholics it contained ? Let him sup-
pose the whole case reversed, and that England was placed in
the same position as Ireland. Ireland the governing country.
England the governed ; he would ask how long would Eng-
lishmen bear with it? The answer was obvious; the same
argument ap shied to Irishmen, and they should be more or
less than men if they did not feel their wrongs deeply and
bitterly rankling at their hearts. The Noble Lord then re-
ferred to a debate in the House of Commons in the year 1807,
in which an Hon. Member, a friend of his, declared that unless
the Government made same alterations in the system of the
Established Church in Ireland, they might give up all hope of
governing that country otherwise than by military force.—
( Hear, hear.) He (Lord Grey) had already supposed the
case such as that of the revenues of a Protestant see, going to
the support of a splendid Catholic hierarchy. Such a state of
things would be a description of slavery to which no English-
man would submit.—( Hear, hear.) lie heard the Nobie
Duke opposite declare in this House last year, that there were
eight millions and a half of people in Ireland professing the
Roman Catholic religion—that there they were, and the, could
not help their being Roman Catholic; ; bet, as they existed,
they should be provided for. He felt that he had impe feetiv
expressed his feelings as to the invaluable nature of this mea•
sure, and how imperfectly he had described what seemed a
monstrous injustice. Considering the state of Ireland, that was
undoubtedly a matter of extreme difficulty, and a man must.
indeed, have most overcoming confidence if he could, without
information, as an individual Member of that House, or with.
out the assistance and advice of many others, contemplate the
possibility even of broaching this substantive measure to the
satisfaction of the country. All he would now say was, that
he proposed a perfect equality of treatment of the Catholic and
Protestant. What was done for one class should be done for
another, and what was done for one religion should be done for
another. There were various modes of arriving at that end.
Some proposed that all endowment should be
be taken away for the present purpose ; and that:as so ,n as the
existing interests fall in, the property of the Protestant Church
should be applied to secular education. He should greatly re=
gret to see such a measure adopted. He had never been made
to understand the advantage of the voluntary system, but he
thought it of very great importance that a large public fund
should be made for the maintenance of ministers of religion,
with permission for them to teach the people in the form in
which they had access to the instruction in the sacred truths of
Christianity. An arrangement of that kind should be come to,
but he should be deeply grieved that all endowments should be
taken away for the purposes of secular education. The
present system combined all the faults and thisadvant ges
of the voluntary system. 'I hey had a voluntary sys-
tem as regarded the people, with all the invidiousness of
a State Church. He, for one, should not be prepared to say
that all the property of the Church should be applied to those
uses of religion. He thought that the Catholic Church should
be established in Ireland as the Protestant Church was in
England, and the Presbyterian Church in Scotland. There
was in favour of that principle the opinion of a man whom he
reverenced more than any man now living—he meant the late
Dr. Arnold. He reverenced him more than any man now in
existence, and he believed that this was his view as to what
should be done in this case. He had no hesitation in saying
that it was deeply to be regretted that such a principle was not
now in existence. It was a great pity that the Protestant
Church had been made the Established Church in Ire-
land—it was as fatal a mistake as was ever commit-
ted. Another proposal, made by a Noble Lord
whom ha then saw opposite, was that a toll should be levied on
landed property in Ireland for the payment of the Catholic
clergy. He thought that proposition a perfectly just and reason-
able one. Another Noble Earl, who was formerly one of her
Majesty's household, asked if it was true that there were 150
parishes in Ireland .n which the rent charge amounted to no
less than 58,0001., and in which there was not a single Pro-
testant. The answer he received confirmed the accuracy of
his supposition or informant. He (Earl Grey) believed that
on the other side it was not shown that the statement was sub-
stantially erroneous. lie had no hesitation in saying that this
was a state bf things which could not endure. As the existing
interests fell in, a portion of the property of the Protestant
Established Church ought to he diverted to the use and payment
of ministers of religion of such a kind that the Catholics would
consent to receive instruction from them. He could perceive
that an answer to this would be given—the objection would be
that the Catholics would accept no assistance. It would be

stated that the time had gone past ; that a few years ago the
Catholics would have accepted their bounty, but that they
would no longer receive it. As to that belief, he knew that
if the assistance were given in a proper manner, and with due
precaution, it would be accepted. They could no longer obtain
the advantage they might have obtained. They could not
attempt tO-establish, directly or indii ectly, the right of inter-
ference with or control over the Catholics. Formerly the
Catholics would have granted such a power, hut now the op-
portunity was lost, and it would be the heif,tht of madness to
attempt it. He believed that they would not accept of any
vsistance as a direct payment to any individual clergyman,
but they would take assistance if given to a fund to be applied
at their own discretion. We owed this state of things to the
unhappy error made by Sir Robert Peel in 1825. He still
believed that the Catholics would take a grant, if it was given
in a sum to be administered by some Catholic authority, to be
applied by hint to-the building of chapels and houses, or in
such ways as might seem necessary. He had always said that
the Catholics were ready to take assistance if large and gene-
rous grants were made for them, excluding stipends. He had,
however,,gone further into details than he intenled, and it was
not the :time for trifling diseuslun. MI he would say was

that there should be an equality of favour ehown to both re-
ligions.—(flear, hear,) They ought out only to erelow the
Cathelics, but tete; oteght to go further, they tweet to give
them the same secal position as the Preeest ant Clesgy, Trier
must allow then their proper rank, and must reverence the
Catholic hierarchy even more than the Catholic Bequests Bills
tsli:eh was passed last year or the year before. As a body the
Catholic clergy %sere distineuisheit for their piety, and their
earnest feeling for the welfare of their flocks, and therefore
they midst be allowed some rank. He could go so far as to
!ay that he wishei to see Catholic prelates taking their place'
cm the bench in that House.—( Hear, hear.) He wished, coat'
sidering tee state of Ireland, that the 110113 C could have the
advice and asisistance of those who knew the Catholic popu-
lation, and could explain to the House their feelings and their
wants. He wished that the House had the advice of those sell
possessed the means of conciliating the Catholic people, and
he did not think that any danger, would result from their intro-
duction; at least it must be a timid person who could sup'
pose that anything dangerous would he the consequence. Ise
believed that the House was net we easily led away that four
Catholic erelatee could obtain any undue authority. }lt
le Levet' that the course of policy that they were now recteel'
meeding to Ireland was opposed to their feelings. /le was
prepared t.o find that his motion met with little support in that
House. He was prepared to see the address he was about t"
move thrown out by a great and overwhelming majority, but
many years would nee elapse before its essential features ue'lla
becorce the law of the country. As long as he had been 11l
public life, he had ample reasons for saving that he had seen
that any case resting on a solid foundation of truth and juslire
was sure in the end to get on; justice and reason were sere;
prevail. He remembered nothing more discouraging in the
appearance than " the Bill for Catholic Emancipation. in te,s_
year 1e27, bat that measure had become the law of the 11171
At the same time free trade seemed altogether impossible, an
those who advocated the opinion which he wished to a.peleee
the commercial regulations of the country-1 principle whieee
cabinet pliilosce hers had advocated—were regarded as perseer
whom it was not worth while to answer ; and when teei
made the slightest allusion to any alteration in coin, they cogi
not muster more votoe than from a dozen to twat);
Nineteen years had since elapsed ; he had lived to sett
the question, year by year advancing, till now it was
its final time; and if it was still doomed to be refused
(Hear, hear)—it was only for a short period, for they we" 0
sight of the goal. In the same way it was with every re 02.40
having regard to any alteration in the policy we pursue. tower 0.
helms; with regard to her church, but it might now be sod
that the time was not very far distant when that church seeue,
be recognised. That time was advancing rapidly; he cceilil,she
it in the tone of this debates last year ; and in the speech offl'e,
Noble Duke opposite, in his arguments in favour of the Nalf
nooth grant, he could see the evidence of the progress
this measure. In the minds of those who advocated justice la
Ireland in this matter no change of opinions had, occur!! re
but he heard of frequent and substantial changes on the otne,
side. He saw men, who had come to Parliament with oPiniele
of a different nature, were inclined to adopt this now; reee
above all, he knew its progress in private conversation. -"`e,
all knew, and could not fail to hear in private conversatieega
that the state of the Irish Church was unanimously adreid is
to be such as ought never to exist in a civilised country,
was deeply to be regretted that a difference was ever made; el
an adjustment of that difference was earnestly to be de..rr"-to
It was true that lie heard such language folloe-ed up 11,,
ation that reform, however desirable, was rendered td,
possible by the prejudices of England and Scotian
which which were so strong that they would not be able
carry a measure of that description. That was a question vet's;
important to consider, but language of this sort ought Otos'
be adopted, nor should such principles be acted upon. A
tbst
of true honesty of thinking would sate that it was right eel
this question should be proposed, as it was only by beiog
posed and discussed that they could hope for success. ifseese
guage of that sort were to be used, it would be unjust to ad,eicef,
it to his countrymen. They had, it was true, strong prei" eat
and he was very wele aware very deep-rooted prejudices; sod
at the same time he knew that the language of reason opt
justice was never addressed to them in vain, and if they had
wrong in this matter it would be the fault of those whe_ip,
to guide them right. If those who took art in public
and to whose advice and guidance the nation was aceusle,er,
to look, and who, standing in this high anti responsibles'ireas
tion, from want of discernment of what was required, or
.01
want cf courage to state their opinions from fear of ineurrLese
personal opposition by stemming the current of public or tbe
—if such now, from such opinions, condescend to give uel'efore
position and privileges Of Englishmen, it might be long
tf of
they were disturbed, but it might be too late for the wetted
,the Empire to do justice to Ireland, when they thought test
saw the necessity. He would fain hope for better things' eats
in this. debate they would take a lesson from the rtie
1829 and 18-16 that they would not be again guilty °or
disingenuousness, and of that want of foresight of ceeetee
events, which the result has shown might justly be ilrre the
to them for their conduct in 1829, and they would not, l? ois
third time, place themselves in that most painful situat°o4
which they were compelled to sacrifice for a great ereergeoads
the dearest interests of the country, or incur the just reP
lid
of having_ deceived their folowers, and of having been thele;eo
sons to carry the measure which formerly they had ever sob
first in resisting. He hoped he should not again see any the
state of things ; he trusted that now it was time to cons'llei
state of Ireland that they would acknowledge the nereses ore
applying remedies more effectual to quell the evils which Isf
now inflicted upon them. The address which he would be
before them did not call upon them to express any oPini.°4 aof
felt it would not be right, as he did not stand in the posleteses
sufficient authority to give him any right to ask 000
to come to so momentous a decision. At the
thos
them, he felt himself bound fully and fairly to express etee
his long and unaltered opinions—opinions which he ofe•
tertained from the first moment he had entered that ,
Although his address did not call for an expression ofe_pedies,
en any particular question, if there were other re let
better calculated to meet the evils laid before the
them be proposed and discussed; he was confident he want'
most happy to hear them, and no effort of his should be Tete
ing to give the most patient, full, and fair consideration. Neelo
were called upon to express, by an address to her gate!!
their conviction that Ireland could not be left in the 3
eeies
be
which it was. Something most be done, and if the roll_ celcir
proposed were wrong, others might be adopted bettertroel,
lated to secure the interest of the empire. I.le
that the great crisis was at an end—he believe" eoll
there was one way, and, in his opinion, e 'rigs
one way of appeasing and allaying the discontent of tl.'my
nation, and of gradually restoring order and tram:lW 01,
that disorganised portion of the empire. There was 00e d not
and only one way, and that was not to grant repeal,
Plan oss
to follow the advice of the Right Rev. Prelate. The par tie
simple—it was to legislate for the Irish as an Irisn dose
ment ; to act fairly and consistently, and they couldet
wrong. If they did not, they would see nothing
neuveertbs
miserable continuance of misery and destitution. Whe "jets
accidental failure of a crop occurred, it would cause
03, pr.
and pestilence, only to be awarded by the interferencereisetee
!lament. They would see outrages but imperfectly Pre ,000,
by severe and troublesome methods, until at last viri of the
some frightful catastrophe, fatal alike to the dominien ',saw
English and the safety of the empire. This was what th_eyejecle
do, and he (Lord Grey) asked their Lordships t°_,
themselves to do what in them lay to avert this fear woe
by agreeing to the address to her Majesty, which he vv°ui
1061111
take leave to read to them. (The Noble Earl ectllee ate
proposing
the address to her Majesty, which is contained
othercolumn.)

On the question being put, is intet
The Duke of WELLINGTON rose. It was n " speec,:t
tion to follow the Noble Earl through his very aible,bet
Much of it was foueded on fact, unfortueately, and • did pot
of it therefore he was unable to answer. But really 06 fee"'
think that in that other part to which the Noble Earl re
...poi to
—he meant the act of her Majesty's Government in re
the nomination of a Commission to inquire into the rhoi bee'
hstween landlords and tenants, and the measure schieb„nitteeei
adopted in consequence of the nomination of that Ce'os 0.
He thought that the Noble Earl would admit that It 00;
quite fair to say that his Right Hon. Friend, when 'lv prietl,
nated this Commission, admitted either the justice er rt:ted t
of the motion un,ler consideration at the titre which re,fts tld
the fixity of tenure. But he would now confine hilese'se, b
sd
address moved for by the Noble Earl. Similar addresmeserj,
been presented frequently both in the last and at the eetDif eePre
merit of this session. Parliament always expressed itln,ealo
to co-operate with her Majesty's Government in ererYpossibvie
which could tend to the prosperity of Ireland. It was h'•--
he could concur in the address moved by
Earl ; and, considering the speech he made, more Parbjeeteti
the latter part of it, namely, his admission that his,clost ass
to felled on that address a system of measures *chi" isod, •
in the extinction of the Church of England in ire 0 ope;
Noble Earl had spoken throughout as if this were obie:i
question—as if Parliament had done nothing 00 the
aciopto
—as if it were a question on which measures eouldubof folio
without the smallest difficulty, or without any lareaD"iot *ter
arrangements or compacts. If ever there was theesisteiro
was made the object of a special compact, it wal distieet 10
of the Church of England in Ireland. That was sing out
os
object which two Parliaments had agreed in carrYiere
perpetual. This was one of the articles which th,l'init hear
timely pledged to maintain. The Noble Earl saitoh bebirb
not desire them to repeal the union, but that w,utevess itt
sired, he stated, was that they should adopt the au,righsed is
was to lead to the putting down the Church of gogiatelibe
Ireland, which was to deprive the Church of end ierAtl
Ireland of its present possessions, and which tiles;ioble
ejetl,
repeal of any treaty of union, which the retle,, oe
stated it was not his desire should be 4,ustiell the
The Irish Parliament was, as a body, cipable of leg:erl ref the
that subject. It was because they had lormallY agri-iee
union that Parliament ventured cn the considera,eoige
question, under the auspices of the Government of ortiel/e' far
and then it was agreed and stipulated that the stll united re
which the Church of England in Ireland was to bre So fit 00
ever to the Church in this country, was to be f°.o sedieorl
maintained. They could not place the Irish "a° both sore,
Irish Parliament in the same situation in which theY, tberr.,ob
at the time that compact was made, and he sa`ttit a twilist
that they could not depart from that compact vvitho
tailed or
of the engagement then entered into. He mat'be reeo,l3°
they had no power upon the subject, and therefore,
ropose, be
mended their Lordships not to agree to the address i) could e<
them by the Noble Earl. Undoubtedly, Ineasil the toeff
adopted calculated to benefit Ireland, and that a" t roes' iv'
House of Parliament ought in every case to adePever the lie
and to legislate for the good of Ireland, wileratioe: eel
terests of that country came under their cons!0" parka able
would say to their Lordships that in his hPir;lkat the aril,
had done its duty on that subject. He believe(' _ never err
Lord did not deny that. He believed that thereof (Teo.)
country which had so advanced in improvements , Hear, Dog°
tions as Ireland since the period of the union.— peoiere
He would not go into details on this subject, D vcroiegoble
Noble Lords would speak in the course of the
verearse,al
capable than he was of doing so, but it was
reer!._
in every way, in trade, in commerce, in shipping, 3.hintir, t•hariso
the customs, in the excise, and indeed in every
Lord old I_lvesis
crease had been enormous, but the Noble Loa"_, to lrf, 110
eat lier part of his speech that foreigner!, who went
or
_0 is
expatiated on the miseries which they witnessed
at:11110e ta,
true there was misery and great poverty there, a cot cll'._g se
other countries, but yet in Ireland there wasett.it,3 be
there were great riches ;
which Out Ireland was at that moment
example to the world, an example ino o eFr
of railwaYst
lions at this moment in the construction
imitated in few countries of Europe, she was laY tb
rash ,
vale expense of individuals. 'There were, it was true, ror
construction in ountriee Gee'o
of Ee -,
in the course of coes the other c of
but how were they constructed ? At the Bose;experlee_e_ t !op.
ent ; not one of them was constructed at the
cxy: w coo
vatem individuals. It was in this country that neloly itra,ol.l,l
strutted at the expense of private individuals the the orf'
country and in Ireland—in every other country ea „Ts
_re
they were constructed at the expense of the
•Ptrvoi, the phis
Now, he did not much care whether this capital it:lit of
pert y of Irishmen, or whether it had been borr the credited
country. If it were cent there, it was sent on,_e.d be to
Irishmen ; if it were the property ofilrishinenns,"t cooot%fit
it was) why it showed the vast improvement I t".; paelits'ore
which at least the Noble Lord ought to have If lore
and those who governed that country some ered!tt"_',oweJ 1,00,
the property of England and lent to Ireland, 3 s" 1,0 ',et
tinued el Gose
was some credit in 'lreland, and that me° isteora,
more confidence in the restoration, and eon u
peace than :he Noble Lord had, He wa?s7foresard,_ tbet,
merit would do everything in its power to bringhtoo,asi
sures which would be calculated to give sa_lawla:be ti 7,
country, a, dto insure public tranquillity. IN
that there was evidence to show that the N.
obelev,iEshater.oifrlie:
tertained towards the Established Church of notesul
little mistaken as to the very great dislike whiton
remarkable c
land. He thought it was a very re 0,
but it was a fact that their Lordships would 'to

)oth re-
lOW the

to qiva