The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY

from a petition which had been presented by the officers
in question, complaining that they were completely shut
out from promotion, while at the same time their retired
allowance was not in proportion to that of the captains.
He (Captain Pechell) earnestly commended their case
to the attention of the House, and trusted that some-
thing would be done for these neglected but most de-
serving officers. As a mode of providing a fund for the
increase he asked for, he suggested the appropriation of
the freight paid to her Majesty's ships for the convey-
ance of specie from various parts of the world. It
amounted to about 30,0001. a year, and he thought it
could not be better employed than in augmenting the
retired allowances of the commanders and lieutenants.
Mr. WARD said that, although his Honourable and
Gallant Friend had acquainted him with his intention of
bringing this subject before the House, he had not given
any notice of the expedient he intended to propose for
providing a fund. He (Mr. Ward) feared that the freight
of specie from the Pacific was too fluctuating a source
of income to be calculated on for retired allowances. He
should not, however, lose sight of the suggestion.
After a few words from Capt. HARRIS,
Mr. HUME quoted a return, showing that since the
date of the order limiting promotions in 1830, 360 cap-
tains had died, and that agreeably to that order only 105
ought to have bee❑ promoted, but that no less than 365
had received promotion. Of commanders 315 died, and
685 had been promoted instead of 105. Of lieutenants
1,049 had died, and 1,224 bad been promoted instead of
372. These were the things that kept up the dead
weight, and it was useless to talk of economy or retrench-
ment so long as that system continued.
Mr. COBDEN expressed his regret that the Hon.
Secretary to the Admiralty resisted the recommendation
of the Committee to reduce the number of the admirals.
At the commencement of the war with France they were
only 69, now they were 150. It was very hard he knew
to tell officers that they had no hope of promotion; but
they were bound to consider the interests of the country
and those who paid taxes. It appeared to him that the
remedy was to be found in the recommendation of stop-
ping the influx of youths into the navy. That was the
way of getting rid of the difficulty. •
After a few words in reply from Mr. WARD, the vote
was agreed to, as were-
-300,2881. for military pensions and allowances.
152,0181. for civil pensions and allowances.
602,6621. for the packet service.
Mr. W. COWPER said (in reply to Mr. Cobden) that
this charge was entirely for Post-office purposes.
Mr. HENLEY complained of the exorbitant cost,
200,0001. a year, of the conveyance of the India mail.
A Committee of the other House had inquired into the
matter, and reported the possibility of making a more
economical arrangement. At present it was not well
managed, the responsibility being a divided one.
Mr. COWPER said the contract between Suez and
the East Indies and China did not expire till Ist Jan.,
1853. No doubt it was very expensive; but no altera-
tion:could be effected till the contract expired. In each
successive year it was probable the cost of convey-
ance would be lessened, as the facilities of travelling
were increased. It had always been the practice of the
Admiralty to contract for this service; but the parties
who tendered were very few.
Mr. MONSELL urged the importance of establishing
a line of packets from one of the western ports of Ire-
land to America, whereby the time occupied in the
passage to Halifax, now nine days, would be reduced
by 36 hours; an object, he conceived, of sufficient im-
portance to claim the attention of the Government. Rail-
way oommunication now extended to Limerick; but he
would not advocate its claims to the exclusion of the
other western ports.
Mr. COWPER said the matter would not be lost sight
of by the Admiralty. They had for some time thought
the port of Valentia would be most suitable for the pur-
pose. He did not anticipate that the passage to Halifax
would be reduced below eight days and a half.
Mr. H. HERBERT advocated the claims of Yalentia
to the consideration of the Admiralty.
Mr. ANSTEY hoped that Castletown would not be
overlooked.

Mr. HENLEY repeated his question, whether any
steps could be taken to secure a better and more
economical management of the India and China mail.
In extensive contracts of this kind, unless a prolonged
notice were given, the matter was sure to become a
monoply.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
no fresh arrangements could be made for three years, and
of course it was impossible for the Government now to
say what arrangements might then be pessible. Other
competitors might materially reduce the charge of con-
veyance.
Mr. HENLEY complained that his question had not
been answered. The contract on this side the isthmus
of Suez would expire very soon, and he hoped the Go-
vernment would not deal with it so as to prevent them
from dealing properly with the whole when it did expire.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said this
question was totally different from the one the Hon.
Gentleman had originally put. He had now put a plain
question, and should have a plain answer. The next
contract for the conveyance on this side the isthmus of
Suez would be made to terminate at the same time as the
other part of the contract ; so that, in future, the whole
subject might be considered at once.
Mr. HENLEY expressed himself satisfied with the
answer.

Mr. HUME said that one of the Southampton mails
to Alexandria had been discontinued, so that now pas-
sengers could only go i,by that route to India once a
month. Government had put on their own boat to Malta,
which was more expensive than sending the mail twice a
month from Southampton.
Mr. COWPER said the alteration had been made to
save 15,000/. a year, and he was surprised the Hon.
Member should complain of that.—(Hear, hear.) No
extra expense whatever was incurred; the 15,0004 a
year had been paid for sending letters by a double route,
which was wholly unnecessary. The letters were now
carried from Malta in a Government vessel, instead of a
contract vessel; but that did not increase the cost.
Mr. HUME contended that the people of India had a
right to complain of the alteration, whereby they only
received their letters through Southampton once a
month. The saving of 15,0001. was paltry in comparison
with the convenience of such important colonies.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that no mail communication whatever had been taken
off. The old arrangement was that letters went over-
land to Marseilles twice a month, and joined the packet
at Malta. This conveyance continued ; and under all
the circumstances it had not been thought necessary to
continue the packet twice a month from Southampton.
As to the proposed packet-station on the west of Ire-
land, the Government would give the subject their best
attention ; but he could give positive pledges as to the
time when it would be carried out, as considerable ex-
pense must first be incurred.
Mr. MONSELL observed that there was already a
railway communication to Limerick.
Dr. BOWRING complained of the heavy postage on
communications to the East. A letter to Egypt cost Is.
6d., while one to Calcutta or Hong-Kong was only Is.
—the cost being 50 per;,cent.:more for only half the dis-
tance.—(llear.)
Mr. COBDEN said if these amounts were considered
as payments for the Post-office service merely, the cost
was most enormous—nearly a million for the whole
packet service.—(Hear, hear.) The sum of 240,0001.
was paid for the West India service alone, while the re-
turn from postage probably would not reach 50,0001.
When these contracts ran out it would be worthy the
consideration of the Admiralty whether the coat could
not be materially reduced.
Mr. GOULBURN said he had predicted that these
arrangements, made for the facility of conveying mer-
cantile correspondence, would be very onerous: but he
had been met by the assertion, on the part of those con-
nected with commerce, that the expense would be more
than compensated by the benefits which would be con-
ferred on other interests. He had no means of knowing
whether such benefits had been realised.
Mr. HENLEY said the Hon. Member for the West
Riding had not included the whole expense in his esti-
mate of a million, for there was the additional sum paid
by the Indian Government. He thought it a great hard-
ship that the public were compelled to pay the higher
postage on their India letters once a month.
Mr. MACGREGOR said the line of packets from
Liverpool to the United States fully repaid the expense.
Mr. HUME would undertake to contract to convey
the mail from Southampton to Alexandria twice a
month for the same amount as was now paid for the
monthly conveyance.--(Hear, and laughter.)
Mr. COWPER said it would not be fair to the Hun.
Member to accept his very generous offer. He could
not do the service for the amount now paid, as the
vessel which would otherwise be lying idle at Malta
was sow sent on to Alexandria ; therefore the only
additional expense was the cost of the coals.
The vote was then agreed to.
MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.
On the first vote, 40,9231., part of a sum of 120,9231.,
for the repairs, Sze., of public buildings; furniture for
various public departments; charges for lighting and
watching, and rates and taxes; also for the mainte-
nance and repairs of royal palaces and works in the
royal gardens,
Mr. V. SMITH complained of the manner in which
the estimates were brought forward during the present
session. What appeared to him to be the result of the
inquiry into the naval and miscellaneous estimates, was
that there was wanted in the Governmental departments
of the country a proper financial cheek.—(Hear, hear.)
No Committee of that House, even if they were all as
well acquainted with the subject as his Hon. Friend the
Member for Montrose, could control the estimates as well
as an executive department.—(Hear, hear.) It was the
custom to prepare the estimates at a much larger amount
than was necessary; but on the other hand it often hap-
pended that a much larger expenditure was incurred than
the estimates would warrant. A considerable portion of
the expenses of the country, the revenue boards, for in-
stance, never came under the supervision of Parliament.
It was very doubtful whether those boards were necessary
at all. But at all events a great portion of the expendi-
ture of the country never came before that House. There
was one question of importance with which the Com-
mittee had not dealt, except partially—namely, the ques-
tion of public salaries. He was of opinion that that
question should be dealt with as a whole, and not sepa-
rately. If they took the report of 1831 as a basis, all
they would have to do would be to consider whether the
circumstances of the present day differed from those of
1831, as regarded the expenses incidental to official life.
He believed that they did, for railroads and other
economic improvements had been extended since that
period ; besides that, the tendency of their recent legis-
lation was to diminish the expenses of living. But the
largest question of all was the question of the colonial
estimates. When those estimates came under discussion
Le
the
of
floe 4
colonial
Hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for
t'lel7
leosnial would
expenditure beab l e to
wouldsay
thatb be thrown
tghrreotenr porno pt oh ro,
colonies themselves than was hitherto the case. It
should be the duty of the Government also to take care,
when they reduced the number of wofficers and made
superannuations, not to make any new appointments, but

to call in such persons from the superannuation list as
might be still capable of discharging their duty. He
hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would state how many of the recommenda-
tions of the Committee he was prepared to adopt, and if
he rejected any, on what account he did so.
Mr. OSBORNE did not know whether the Right
Hon. Gentleman addressed his observations to the House
in his capacity of Chairman of the Committee, or
whether he had been deputed to make them by her Ma-
jesty's Government, because the usual practice was for a
Minister to come down and make a statement.—(Hear.)
The report on the miscellaneous estimates was in singular
contrast with the reports on the naval estimates.—
(Hear.) It was bare and meagre •, in parts there was
some pretty writing and a great deal of bad gram-
mar.—(Laughter.) The Committee decided on the sa-
laries of the Ministers of the Crown and of a few clerks,
and that was all. The Right lion. Gentleman would
not go into the question of the salary of the Lord-Lieu-
tenant of Ireland, but the Committee recommended the
abolition of the Queen's plates in Ireland. A more dis-
graceful estimate was never submitted to the House.
The most opposite things were put together, as Windsor
Castle and the Hackney Coach-office. Every item ought
to be distinctly set down, instead of which all was con-
fusion. He did not see why there should be any dis-
tinction between public and private accounts; the pre-
sent estimate was a fraudulent one, and contained posi-
tive misrepresentations. He called on the Committee
to insist on some explanation of the various 4„ems. The
Committee evidently gave the go-by to everything use•
ful.—(Hear, hear.) Their report, however, recom-
mended a more economic superintendence of the Woods
and Forests department.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND must confess that he was
called on to vote on a document on the present occasion
respecting which it was utterly impossible for him to
form any opinion.—(Hear, hear.) He had no means of
forming any opinion as to the soundness of any one of
the items contained in the papers before him. The
Hon. Gentleman who spoke last pointed out some ex-
traordinary blunders. Here was another incongruous
item all in ono line, " for oil, gas, and light in the
House of Commons and St. Martin's public baths and
washhouses."—(Hear, hear.) Certain ho was, that
many things which were now brought forward in
this way would not have been tolerated in former times.
He felt so sensibly on these matters, he thought them so
derogatory to the honour of the Crown, so fatal to the
interest of the Royal Family, that he should only add
to the evil which he deprecated by alluding any further
to them. But he would appeal to any Gentleman in
that House, and ask if he would like to have many parts
of his own establishment brought forward and made the
subject not only of discussion in that House, but in every
pothouse in the kingdom, and whether it would be a
proper way to uphold his dignity to have his establish-
ment so canvassed? He could not understand how the

public servants of tho Crown, who must be brought into
intimate personal relationship with the Sovereign, could
allow such things. The Woods and Forests had been
alluded to. There was a large property in this country
possessed by the Sovereign, not as sovereign, but as the
largest landowner in this country. He knew enough
to know now that no one had been so ill served—no one
so grossly cheated—as the Crown.—(Cheers.) But ho
did not intend to enter into these things; he merely rose

to protest against them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
rose. He said he never, within his experience, remem-
bered a speech being made upon the introduction of the
miscellaneous estimates. The reason why items were
lumped together was to afford to the House the fullest
information as to the particulars for which the public
money was required to be paid. With regard to the ob-
servations of Mr. Vernon Smith, he assured him he
thought the inquiry of the Miscellaneous Estimates
Committee had been attended with very beneficial re-
sults.
reductionH of eagerxpen
eedwdiittherehimmuinst his opinion orepiandieonbtyhattbteherea
Exe-
cutive Government; and in the greater portion of the
general recommendations of the report, he entirely
concurred. With regard to details, he would not go
into their consideration now, for they could be discussed
as each item was proposed for the consideration of the
House.
Colonel SIBTHORP should like to ask why they
were sitting there upon the 11th of August? A greater
rigmarole—a more unsatisfactory chaos of a speech than
that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—he had never
heard. He had told them nothing; he had left them to
conjecture every thing. A book as large as a church
bible was laid upon the table, and they were told to get
their facts out of that as they could. But that would not
do for him. He was disposed to sit there de die in diem,
and go into every detail of these estimates before he voted
them.
Mr. OSBORNE said the Chancellor of the Exchequer
treated this subject in the jaunting sort of way in which
he usually addressed the House. Ho involved the sub-
ject in a cloud of words, and in reality said nothing. It
was all very well for him to get up in the flash-in-the-
pan and jack-in-office sort of way, and talk about the
matter as if he was at a family tea-party; but he (Mr
Osborne) called upon him in the name of the public to
explain.—(Hear, hear.) Now, let him ask, what was
meant by the Museum of Economic Geology? Let him
ask what was to be done about the royal palaces? Let
him ask what assurance was to be given that the esti-
mates should be laid before them in a better state next
year. Unless he received satisfactory replies he should
divide the House upon the first estimate.
Dr. BOWRING should be sorry if it were supposed
that the Committee on these estimates had made a com-
plete report. It was impossible that they could do so
Their examination was not into matters of principle, but
into questions of detail. No less than 165 matters were
referred to them. Why, the Committee was not able
to do its duty. The immense mass of matter referred
to it precluded the possibility of a satisfactory perform-
ance of their duties. It was very natural, therefore,
that their report should be considered very bare and
meagre. He contended for the necessity of having a
central office of accounts, to investigate every item, and
that every pound that was paid to the state should be
handed over at once to the State Treasury, no depart-
ment being allowed, as now, to intercept millions of
money and apply it almost irresponsibly, rendering in a
vast proportion of cases no particular account either to
the general executive or to the House of Commons. He
was glad to understand that the Government was taking
measures for carrying into effect one very important sug-
gestion of the Committee, that all fees received by
public dopartments should be paid over in gross to the
public Treasury, to be applied by the responsible
authorities to the public service. The fact was, that
every department of the state would occupy the close
attention of a Committee, in order to arrive at any sa-
tisfactory result.
Mr. HUME certainly considered it would have been
most desirable to hear from the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, to what extent he proposed to act upon the re-
commendations of the Committee. It was a great de-
fect in the preparation of public information on this
subject, that the question of salaries had not been gone
into, and this was a point on which he should be glad to
have the views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ex-
pressed. There had been a revision of public salaries
under the report of the Committee of 1831. Many re-
ductions had been effected, and the House was well dis-
posed now again to revise the salaries in all our depart-
ments. He did not concur with his Hon. Friend in
thinking that the report was all barren; ho considered
that it contained much that was highly valuable. As
to the royal palaces, he had three months since moved
for detailed returns on this subject, but he had hitherto
seen nothing of the returns sought. He fully shared
the objections which had been stated to the incon-
gruous grouping of the various items which went to
make up the large estimates about to be proposed.
There was one item, which he would at once specify
as most objectionable: the estimate for rents of public
offices; these seemed to be perfectly preposterous in
several instances. As to the Museum of Economic
Geology ho was of opinion that, if carried out as an-
nounced, this institution would be productive of great
benefit to the public. Ho repeated his desire that the
Government would give some explanation as to their
judgment on the report of the Committee.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think it would be a con-
venient course to apply the example of the Secretary of
the Admiralty to the proposition of the miscellaneous
estimates. The prefacing the naval estimates with a
general statement was a perfectly convenient course,
because the Admiralty department was homogeneous in
its details, but this was not the case with the miscel-
laneous estimates, which had reference to a dozen dif-
ferent departments. The first estimate, for example,
having relation to the Woods and Forests, his Noble
Friend could fitly give any details which might be re-
quired respecting it, while any questions respecting the
particulars of the second estimate, which related to the
criminal law commission, would have to be answered,
not, by his Noble Friend, but by his Right Hon. Friend
at the head of the home department. It would, there-
fore, be obviously the only convenient course to discuss
each item as it occurred. He quite agreed in the pro-
priety of transferring many of the items now paid out
of the Consolidated Fund to the columns of the miscel-
laneous estimates, and he should be prepared, in con-
currence with his Right Hon. Friend, to make this alte-
ration in very many cases next session, but he did not
feel that this principle could safely be applied in every
case. If the House was to be called upon to consider all
the estimates of all the departments there would be no
time loft for legislation. He regarded the report of tho
Committee as containing a great deal of valuable matter,
and as being as full as under the circumstances could
have been expected. The subject of salaries had been
considered by the Committee of 1831, and the salaries
of the heads of the various departments had, as he con-
ceived, been settled at that time to the satisfaction of
teoonal could Parliament.
ybea
suggestionsriw answered
red asas the
to questions,ttheem
sitem under
occurred.n however,d on this
er discussion,
With
respectsu bj eae
as
the Committee had expressed a wish that it should
be sot forth more at large in the printed estimates, his
Noble Friend would take care that in future this should
be done.
Mr. BANKES said that the delay which had been
complained of in passing the estimates could not be
charged on the House, for they had been submitted to
examination before various Committees, and it was that
which had caused the present dilemma. The estimates
Wore the Committee contained some very doubtful
items. He would not call them disgraceful, but ho must
say that the mode in which the accounts were presented
was very inconvenient to the House. He observed a
charge made for the Pavilion Palace at Brighton, which
was of no use to the Royal Family, and which ought to
be converted into money for the public service. There
was also a charge of 1,410/. for taking up and cleaning,
and for renewing the mats which covered the floor of the
House. He also observed very large sums charged for
the rent of temporary offices, which he thought might
be packed more closely together, as well for the sake of
convenience, as on account of economy. There was a
charge of 1,780/. r repairing the ruins of an abbey,
which he should be glad to hare sume explanation of
from the Noble Lord.
Lord MORPETLI:said that the eetimste had been pre-

sented in the form usually adopted of late years, only a
little more in detail. He admitted there were good
grounds for the recommendation of the Committee that
the annual charge for repairing each palace should be
presented separately, for it was highly unjust to the so-
vereign that it should be supposed the outlay charged
was incurred for the Royal convenience, when, in point of
fact, the public convenience alone was consulted. With re-
spect to the Pavilion, it was the intention of the Govern-
ment to dispose of the site and the materials, and, if it
should be found that an Act of Parliament was neces-
sary for the purpose, the proper notices would -ibe duly
served. With respect to the charge of 1,780!. for re•
pairing Lanercost Abbey, that was for the restoring the
roof which had fallen in, and it was deemed proper to
preserve a ruin which presented some of the finest
remains of antiquity that were in the possession of
the Crown.—(Hear.) The charge also included the cost
of keeping in repair Carisbrook and Carnarvon Castles,
which likewise presented valuable specimens of
archaeology. With respect to the charge for temporary
offices, the Woods and Forests had received orders to
provide accommodation for certain departments, and the
Hon. Member was aware that house rent in the neigh•
bourhood of Whitehall where it was necessary the °Ewes
should be, was not very moderate.
Mr. V. SMITH said that he had been accused by the
Hon. Member for Lincoln of attacking the Government,
and by the Hon. Member for Middlesex of defending
them with regard to the present estimates; but he begged
to say he had done neither. It appeared to him, from
the Noble Lord's statement, that the charge for Lanercost
was for building a new ruin.
Colonel SIB riloßp said he saw among the items a
heavy charge for the railway commission. Now he was
anxious to know why, if the enormous expense of a rail-
way commission was necessary, the railways did not pay
it themselves? The present Government had come into
office as an economical Government, but nearly all of
them had belied that character.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ANSTEY complained of the absence of details
in the estimates. He objected to the House being asked
to vote away money without being at the same time fur-
nished with an account of its expenditure. Ho thought
that they should have some means of testing the national
expenditure similar to what had been possessed by the
Court of Exchequer until it was tampered with by the
Administration of 1834. He hoped that before the
Committee sat again Government would give them some
means of testing the merits of the various estimates sub-
mitted to them.

Sir R. INGLIS, in reference to the large items for
rent, said that there was a large and unsightly area of
unoccupied ground in Downing-street, acid he thought
that the hest use that could be made of it would be to
erect on it a substantial set of buildings for the use of
the various commissions, or it might be appropriated to
the erection of a Foreign-office more suited to the
foreign business of the country than the present un-
sightly edifice.
Mr. GOULBURN wished to set the Hon. and Learned
Member for Youghal right on one point. If he looked
at the estimates he would find a statement of the dis-
bursements of the past year.
Mr. ANSTEY exp;ained that what he had asked for
were various accounts which were referred to in the esti-
mates but not produced.
Mr. HUME objected to any grant for court-houses in
the Isle of Man. He thought that this country had no
right to provide such structures for the people of that
island.
Dr. BOWRING said that the revenues of the island
were quite sufficient for all purposes if properly admi-
nistered.
The vote was agreed to.
10,0001. for enlarging and improving Buckingham
Palace.

Mr. OSBORNE hoped that the original estimate
would not be exceeded. There was one point, however,
on which he was anxious to get information. He saw
an item set down for pulling down the marble arch.
That arch had cost the country 80,0001., and now it was
about to be pulled down the House had a right to know
what was to be done with the ruins.
Lord MORPETH hoped that the House would grant
means for re-erecting the arch i n some place where it
would be an ornament to the metropolk.
The vote was agreed to.
8,4101., erecting a palm-house at Kew.
Mr. OSBORNE objected to the ♦ote, as being in ex-
cess of the original estimate.
Lord MORPETH read a statement showing that the
number of visitors had •astly increased, and that there
had been 64 acres added to the gardens, together with
a most interesting museum.
Mr. B. OSBORNE was satisfied with that statement,
as far as it went; but the Noble Lord did not explain
why the increase of expenditure should have been so
great—nominally stated at 2,900/., but in reality upwards
of 8,4001.. showing a false return to the House.
Lord MORPETH denied in the most distinct terms
that there was any mis-statement in the return justifying
the Hon. Gentleman's remark.
After a general conversation, the vote was agreed to.
The next vote of 4,2341., to defray the expenses of
temporary accommodation for the Houses of Parliament,
was, after a few words from Mr. OSBORNE, agreed to.
The House resumed, the Chairman reported progress,
and obtained leave to sit again on Monday next.
In answer to a question put by Col., SIBTHORP,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
should propose to take a Committee of Supply on
Monday next, and to go on with the miscellaneous
estimates.