The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-08 00:00:00

THE
_SUN, LONDON, MONDAY ,EVENING, JUNE B, 184&.

with sand from the Isle of Wight, which was now shipped at Yar-
mouth, in the Isle of Wight, and sent round the coast to Gloucester,
from whence it was transmitted to its destination by canal; but it
was attended with great delays and inconveniences. The demand
for sand bad increased in consequence of the reduction of the duty
upon glass. One of these complaints emanated from Mr.
P. Harris, one of the largest glass manufacturers in Europe,
who stated that he had 300 of his workpeople unemployed, in conse-
quence of the irregular supply of the commodity, whom he said he
should be compelled to discharge if he did not get a supply imme-
diately,

Mr. P. Harris, glass manufacturer, at Islington, near Birmingham,
corroborated the statement of the last witness. The sand P:orn the
Isle of Wight was of a superior quality. Continuous communication
without break of guage with the north would be most advantageous.
Mr J. George, grocer at Romsey, had sugar from London which
ai came round the coast. Th anchester and Southampton would be
of more advantage than th omsey and Redbridge, as it opens up
direct communication, in add on to the north.

Mr. G. Powell, ironfounder, Andover, considered that the proposed
line would save him 1/. in the conveyance of his goods. The pre-
sent delays and expense of transit prohibited the extension of his
business. He should save ss. per ton in the transit of timber. Con-
sumed about 400 tons In the course of the year, 300 tons of which
he obtained from Wales, and the remainder from Scotland. By the
line proposed he should be able to compete more successfully with
other manufacturers.

Mr. J. Rawlings. an estat,, agent in Wilts, detailed at great length
the advantages which the line would confer on all the districts it
would traverse.

The Committee adjourned until 12 to morrow.

GROUP XVIII.
EXETER (GREAT WESTERN).
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition.)
J. W. Buller, E.g., late M.P. fer Exeter, and Mr. Drummond, of
Exeter, gave evidence in favour of the line; also regarding the
western traffic.

Mr. Mitchell, M.P. for Bridport, and Mr. Wells, magistrate 01
Bridport, gave evidence in favour of the line.
The Committee then adjourned.

GROUP XX,

This Committee met at twelve o'clock this morning, in Room 3
Mr. Sotheron in the chair.

LONDON, HOUNSLOW. AND WESTERN.
The examination of witnesses on the p•irt of the petitioners natal
the Bill was proceeded with.

I 'The first two witnesses examined were market-gardeners, who
gave their opinion that the proposed line would be of little or no use
to their business, and that it would be used by very few gardeners.
The COMMITTEE expressed their opinion that any further evidence
on this point would be superfluous.

Mr. Nelson, a solicitor, and one of the petitioners, was then called,
and smoke to the injury this line would do to certain property be-
longing to him at Putney. As laid down the line would pass through
his house, a':d even using the extreme limits of deviation the line
would pass close to the wall. It would also do great injury to the
property of Lady Shelley and others.
Mr. Salter, clerk to the Hammersmith vestry, gave evidence as to
a meeting of the Hammersmith vestry, at which a resolution con-
demnatory of this line was passed almost unanimously. An amend-
ment was proposed, but only 27 members voted, and of these 9 were
for, and 18 against the amendment.

Mr llughe-s. a salesman, in Covent-garden market, gave evidence
against the Bill.

Mr. Warren, a land surveyor, was then called, and said that he
had made an estimate of the cost of the land proposed to be taken
by this line, which he said would not be less than 104,720/.
The Rev. Mr. Baker, the rector of Fulham ; Mr. Flutter. con-
tractor; Mr. Charles Lloyd, farmer, and other witnesses, gave ge-
dence against the Bill.

Mr. Key, secretary and manager of the Fulham Omnibus Association,
stated that he had held that situation about thirteen months. There
were nineteen omnibuses belonging to the Association, and all the um -
nibuses going to and fro between Fulham and Lonilon were included
in this number. Each of these omnibuses made twenty-nine journeys
per week—four on every week day, and three on Sundays ; 560,149
passengers were carried by these omnibuses in the course of the week*,
being, on an anverage, twenty-one passengers per journey. The
omnibus fare was but slap_ nee the whole way ; it would be much
more by the railway, and the saving of time would not be very
great. Not morn than one-fifth of the existing traffic would go by
the railway.

Mr. Turrel, secretary to the Hammersmith Omnibus Association,
gave skull ir evidence to that of Mr. Key.
Mr. Hughes, civil engineer, was then called, and gave evidence
against the Bill, showing how, by a deviation (not within their
limits), a line much superior, in his opinion, to the Hounslow and
Western, might be made. It would be shorter by one mile, and
would inflict much less residential damage.
Mr. Galling* surv. yor, gave evidence as to the manner in which
the line would pass through certain private property, and more
especially as to the injury to the property of a Miss Anderton, which
he said would be rendered almost useless by the line passing through
it in the manner proposed.

As it was then intimated that there was one more witness to be
called, but he was not now present,
The Committee, after some dissuasion, rose at half-past three
o'clock, and adjourned till Wednesday (to-morrow being the Queen's
birth-day), with the understanding that they would not sit on
Thursday, bat on rising on Wednesday would adjourn till k riday.

GROUP XXIV.
ELT AND DUET

The Committee on this line reassembled at one o'clock, Mr. Gran-
ville Vernon in the chair, when
Mr. S. Valentine, the engineer of the line, gave the general en-
gineerlng evidence,which showed the gradients to be exceedingly easy,
and the earthworks small. The estimates for the works are
180.2371., and for land 49,7631. ; making a total of 230,0001. for the
whole of the expense.

. -
To Mr. IlotztEs the witness replied that he had been instructed to
lay out such a line as would effect a through traffic, but Lynn was
not a primary consideration in this line. An endeavour was made
to show that the propesed communication between Weedon and
Cambridge would satisfy the requirements of the district. The line
would run, like the Eastern Counties Extension, for a mile over fen, the
height of the embankment for which would be 14 feet, which he pro-
posed to lay down on the surface, without digging out to form a bottom.
The width of the embankment at the bottom would be 86 feet, the
width at the top 33 feet, and theblope 1% to I. There was another
point at 13 miles, 3 fhrlongs where there was bog, but the depth of it
Imbed not ascertained, not conceiving it necessary, as he proposed to
carry the line on a level. There was fenny land, but nothing
that truly could be called bog. He had bored in several places
to ascertain the depth of the bog, but only where he
proposed to erect bridges. For an embankment there was no ne-
cessity to do this, as the country was perfectly sound from one end
to the other. He intended to build a bridge at Ely. where he had
bored, and found the depth to be 93. feet, and had not bored at any
other place. There was a beg 23 feet in depth at the end of toe
third furlong, but that he thought was no impediment. He pro-
posed to cross the Ouze at Ely, behind the Eastern Counties
station, and very near the spot where the Eastern Union proposed to
cross it. The whole length of the line wr uld be 23 miles 5 furlongs 7 chains
and 50 links, and taking the whole length of the line the side cut-
tings would be 81,298 yards, the total cuttings 432,153 yards. They
crossed 33 roads, of which 31 would be crossed at a level. The rail-
way was crossed at Sonham at the express desire of the inhabitants
by a bridge. There were to be eight stations on the railway.
['here is a special agreement between the Eastern Counties Railway
and the Lynn and Ely t.:ompany that the latter should have the
free use of the station of the former and a mile of the railway
, gratuitously. It was proposed to cross the Sark four
times between Mildenhall and Bury, the distance being eleven
miles, but these crossings would be within six miles. Be proposed
to obviate thiflood water by timber viaducts. The bridges would
be twenty feet span, while the bridges at present in existence were
only twelve feet.

Mr. Rastrick, the eminent engineer, confirmed the whole of the
evidence of Mr. Valentine, the cnignecr of the line, especially with
respect to the soundness of the line in the fenny district, and the
needlessness for boring, except for the foundations of brick or stone
bridges.

Mr. Allan Ransom, a machine maker, especially of agricultural im-
plements, at Ipswich, testified to the dock accommodation of that
town, and also as to the extent of the trade with Holland, and the
advantage this line would be of in opening the communication with
Lincolnshire and the western counties. The distance from Harwich
to Rotterdam was 145 miles, while the latter place was
248 miles from London. Harwich is a harbour of refuge,
and the only one between the Thames and the Humber.
Taking the whole district into conslderat. on, for all the general
parposes of business, although the populations on both lines were
pretty equal, the Bury and Ely line would give the best accommo-
dation. But, considering Newmarket as an important place, he
thought that the Ipswich and Bury would aft,rd the best accommo-
dation, and Mildenhall was not a place of sufficient importance to
justify the withdrawal of the line from the best districts. So far as
Ly
nnwasconcernledp; the same benefits would arise as would occur
tolpswich. The Ipswich and Bury line was shorter, and would be
nearer both to Newmarket and Cambridge ; and he could see no ad-
vantages to be derived from the Ely and Bury line which were not
conferred by the Ipswich line.
To Mr. Boantwics, the witness replied that he employed about
740 men, „whom somewhat less than one-half were engaged in the
manufacture of agricultural implements, the rest were occupied in
the making heavy machinery, but the trade is restricted for the
want of railway accommodation.
To Mr. BAGELLY the witness replied, that nine -tenths of their Iron
was brought from Newport, which came by water to Ipswich. All
the produce of Holland, or intended fur that country, which came
from or was intended to go to the south-east of England, would doubt-
less go through London ; but that which may be intended for the
interior and to the west would: go by Harwich, especially the oats,
which may hereafter be imported from Poland and carried
to Newmarket ant' to that neighbourhood.
On cross-examination, Mr. Ransom stated, that although it had
been intended to go to Newmarket, yet that branch had b,en
abandonded in favour of the Chesterfield and Cambridge line.
The witness was then cross-examined as to the respective advan-
tages of the several ports, which Mr. Ransom gave in favour of Ips-
wich ; and to which Mr. O'Malley replied that the tonnage on goods
was rated in the port dues according to the size of the vessels in which
they were carried, varying from Id. per ton to Is. 6d. on vessels of
500 tons.

After some observations from the CHAIRMAN, Mr. O'Malley was
proceeding, when the time for breaking up arrived, and the Com-
mittee adjourned till twelve o'clock to-rr orrow.

GROUP )(XXIX. •
OLDHAM DISTRICT.

The Committee assembled to-day at twei;;;'ClOck, Mr. Divett in
the chair, when
Mr. Clayton gave evidence as to the relative utility of the exten-
sion of the Manchester line called the Oldham and Manchester, or
as it is otherwise cqlled the Birkenhead line. The evidence
adduced in the early part of the :lay went to show
that the Oldham District lines were the most advantageous,
partly from their opening the coal-fields better, and partly from the
circumstance of there being two termini, one at the east end and :he
other at the west end of Oldham, while the Birkenhead line proposed
only one, which is intended to be in the centre of the town. A large
tract of land on Broad Bent Moss might be brought into cultivation
if the facilities likely to be afforded by this railway were obtained,
Mr. Sergeant WRANOEAM cross-examined, and elic►ted that the
traffic on the Birkenhead line, and that meetings had been
held in Oldham in its favour. With respect to the termini, it
appeared that they would have to reach both by a hill, and a tunnel
was now being fprmed by the Manchester and Leeds Com-
pany to go under the town. And with respect to coals,
the price of house-fire coal was generally about 103. a-ton
at Oldham. The witness conceived that the York-
shire coal was not likely to supersede the Oldham coal, because
he was aware that the cartage was for seven or eight miles before
the railways were made. The usual time of transit to Manchester
was half an hour, though he believed it was sometimes three-
quarters.

- To Air. FOOO the witness replied that he conceived the Yorkshire
coal would not go to Saddleworth, for it never bas been, but that
might be In consequence of the want of railway accommodation. He
could say nothing of the probably management of the districts line,
as he had taken no part in the direction, although a shareholder;
though he conceived that stoppages would arise there, as many
lines met. He was generally acquainted with the trade of the dis-
trict, but could speak to no details.
Mr. Wright, Deputy-Chairman of the line, was examined,
and cross-examined at great length, and stated that the Man-
chester and Leeds Company took one-halt of the capital
in the company by whom the line was to be worked
and to whom it was to be leased at a certain rate of per centage.
By a clause in the Bill, a power was to be given, to sell the line
altogether, but the right of voting in the Leeds and Manchester
Company was only one vote for two shares, while the Oldham Dis-
trict Company was one vote for one share ; and there was another
clause which, on the point of amalgamation, the present
established Company were prevented from voting at all.
There could be no question as to the superiority of the convenience
of the two termini instead of one. These lines would so open up the
communication with Rochdale, Bolton, and all the surrounding
districts. As respects coals, he believed that the consumption of
coal for house purposes was about equal to that used for ftcam-
engines. He himself was a cotton-spinner, had three steam-
engines, and consumed about 1,000 cwts. In the cotton manufacture
there were 80 steam-engines, with an aggregate of 2,795 horse-
power ; the number of hands employed were 14,280, and the quan-
tity
of coals consumed was about 9,944 tons; the quantity of cotton
and worsted made was about 42,804,0001b5. There had been a great
number of Paris velvet hats made of cotton at Oldham, a business
which might be very largely increased.
Mr. PLATT, a partner in the machine manufacturing firm of Platt
and CO., of Oldham, stated that they employed more than 980
hands, that they received more than 5,500 tons of pig iron, and 250
tons of bar iron. They consumed 900 tons of coke, and sent to the
accommodation
several places around machinery to the value of 165,1481., making a
tonnage of 15,000 tons ; of this quantity, insufficient as the railway
:,hodomatitottneymisgohptpbelie,dgwohodoswtoerteheanwxotortohs
to
of 81,8001. were,
t,g•eoored,s even
t
rough, near Shoe bring
now, sent by railway, and there was a generai desire among
timberinanag
by railway. The witness testified to the necessity of further accom-
modation, and to the dies ttisfaiction of the public hi. Oldham with the
ef7r2vernatho
Mr. Schofield, a timber merchant, stated that it cost more t
than it eld
did to bring it from Diundee and London, until the ffl
Sheffield
Railway was opened.
The announcement of the Speaker being at prayers watt made, and
the Committee adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow.

GRO XLV.
The following Bills are comprisedUP in this new group, viz.:—
Newcastle and Darlington Junction and Tyne Dock.
Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Edinburgh, and Direct Glasgow Junction.
Wear Dock Railway.
Newcastle and Berwick.
Newcastle and Carlisle Extension.
room Th The
3 ;present Committee
ma assembled
jends
toaute a(
Newcastle and Darlington, Durham and Sunderland and Wear-
mouth Dock Purchase and Branches.
Northumberland and Lancashire Junction.
Diem-
hers.
The list having been read through, it appeared that the parties
promoting the Wear Dock Railway, and the Nortlunnbaland and
laweaabire RailYnt7r had alnuad9no thoollilli.
)u,tersultdoutiwe
oothoe'drokin
(chairman), fewial r t nmai nn

NEWCASTLE AND DARLINGTON, MYR-
main AND SUNDERLAND, AND WEAR-
MOUTH DOCK &. PURCHACE BRANCHES.
Precedence was given to this Bill, and, the formal business having
been gone through,

liinnvani;, conunsel for the promoters said, that the ot,ject
of this bill was to constuct branches to a railway called
the Newcastle and Darlington, which Bill had received the
sanction of Parliament in 1842. The advantages of that
line were admitted, and their object was new to improve it still
further. Ito would call the attention of the Committee to the im-
portance of the objects sought by the promoters of the Bill before
them. At the first branch off Sunderland there was a population
of sixty thousand persons who were provided with the
requisite accommodation. Bill for the improvement of the docks
south of the Wear had received already the sanction of Parliament
this year. The present mode by which the people of Sunder-
land went southward was most inconvenient, because in
effecting that object they had to go northward, which
would be obviated by the proposed branch, the esti-
mate for which was 178,000/. Tne only opposition offered to the
Bill was, with respect to the last branch, namely, from lietton to
Penchurch, and that by a party tin ough whose property tho line did
not pass. It appeared that there was a tram-road on the line, which
had been constructed for the purpose of conveying coals, and which
traversed their property. The party petitioning complained that as this
tra.e-road was in the neighbourhood of his property, the same would
be injuriously effected by the railway it any diversion of the traffic
from the tram road should ensue as he was paid a certain sum by
the parties who had constructed this tram road. He trust( d that
under these eiri umstances the Committee would not entertain for a
moment this petition. It was a fact that Parliamentary Committees
had not allowed compensation to canal companies for injury
done to their property in this way. If it should so happen that any
portion of the petitioner's property was invaded by this railway
liberal comFcmettion would be given. file other branches would
yield great accommodation to the district through which they would
pass, and a further accommodation would be afforded to Durham.
Ile trusted, in conclusion, that, without trespassing at any consider-
able length on the time of the Committee, that he should obtain his
Bill.

Mr. llatrison (engineer of the line), was then examined as to the
advantages of the line, to which he bore testimony.
Mr. Nicholson, of Newcastle, engineer, corroborated Mr. Har-
rison's statement as tar as regarded his neighhourheod.
Mr. Ilynde, M.P., was also examined, and stated that the line
would be very beneficial to Newcastle.

After hearing some observations from Counsel, in support of the
petition against the Bill,

The Committee decided that the preamble of the Bill was proved,
with the exception of the branch from Fenchurch to Melton.
The Committee then adjourned.

GROUP LIII.

SEIROPSUITZE UNION AND CANAL (OHMS—
TE2, TO WOLVER.HAZIPTON).
(Continued from eur Afternoon Edition.)
In his cross-examination, Mr. Provis said—His instructions frem
Mr. Stephenson were to bring this Elie into Wolverhampton on the
same level with the Shriwsliury and Birmingham, and not the Ox-
ford, Worcester, and 'Wolverhampton Railway Company. Supposing
that the last-named railway enteredprolverhampton on the narrow
gauge, as an engineer he should certainly consider any new scheme
of railway entering the same town incomplete if it did not enter on
the same level, if Parliament sanctioned no other line.

Mr. Robert Stephenson said he had been employed by this Company
as consulting engineer, and he recommended the present scheme. Ste
had duly considered all other schemes belore he came to the decision
that the present wits the most likely to confer the greatest benefit
on the construction and at the least expense. This line would
afford the best levels, and it was, certainly, beyond all
question, the best that could be made b. tweets Bit kenhead
and Staffordshire. The importance of the heavy mineral traffic that
would flow upon this line could not be• overrated, and this line
would ilea:oily be superior to the Grand Junction Company's Lne
in that respect. That line was better calculated for pa,senger
traffic, and it this line were sanctioned he was of opinion that the
result AVOW(' be that heavy traffic would pass along it whilst the
light traffic would be carried by the Grand Junction Company. This
line was not mixed up with the competing systems in any way.
Cross-examined—lto did not look upon the line as a r.val of the
Grand Junction scheme. It was the desire of the Shropshire Com-
pany to convert their bankrupt canal into a railway, and so benefit
themselves as well as the public. This line, however, would no
doubt compete with the Grand Junction. The object of this company
in laying down this line was to form the best means of railway com-
munication between Birmingham and Ireland, and he now believed
that it would prove to be so, if formed. He was of opinion that rail-
ways would eventually have the effect of drying up all the canals in
the kingdom. The line would take Wolverhampton at a high level, and
after a most minute and freqm tit examination of the subject, he
was of opini on that a 1ih..11 level would Ise decidedly the best for the
people of Wolverhampton. liy adopting a high level be was enabled
to carry the line into the heart of the town. Shad a low level teen
selected, he should have been prevented from doing so try the canals,
&e. So convinced was he of the desirableness of railways having
elevated stations, that he was at present going to sonic expense for
the purpose of dovising how every railway might enter towns at
high levels, which would have the effect of accelerating the trains at
starting.

Re-examined—He advised the company not to carry their line at
present into the town of Wolverhampton until some arrangement
could be made with the other schemes.

Mr. LAING said that the Company's other engineer, Mr. Cubitt, was
at that moment giving evidence before the Committee that Lad to
decide on the London and York scheme.

The lion. CHAIRMAN said that they had heard sufficient engineer-
ing evidence, nor would it be necessary to hear the evidence of an-
other gentleman—the manager of the Birmingham and Gloucester
Canal—who was absent on a previous day, and who would give fur-
ther evidence as to the effect which the construetion of railways had
on canals.

Mr. Stec then gave traffic evidence.
Mr. Sergeant KIN.GLAKE here asked whether it was the intention
of the Committee to s:t to-morrow?

The Hon. CHAIRMAN, atter consulting with his colleagues, said,
yes, I think we'll sit to-morrow ; we have have bad so many holt-
dAys of late, that unless we proceed pretty rapidly we shall not finish
our business in proper time.

. .
Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE—I merely asked fOr the convenience of
the witnessts.

Mr. Pare was then called to speak as to the traffic; after which
Mr. Cowan was called, and proved that the amount of shares sub-
sM'ibed for was 149,250/., and the amount deposited 313,45/.
Mr. Route having given his evidence,
Mr. LAING said that this closed the promoters' case.
Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE then proceeded to address the Committee
against this scheme, and on behalf of the Worcester and Stafford-
shire Junction Canal Company. Ile complained that Mr. Austin
and those Learned Counsel who were with him had most
prudently endeavoured to keep back from the Committee the iin
portance of this subject. die was not surprised to hear Mr. Austin
and Mr. Stephenson say that the canals of this country must be dried
up to give place to railways. But he contended that tiie public were
vttally interested in preserving those canals for the purpose of keep-
ing alive that rivalry which must exist if railways and canals ex-
isted at the same time. That, In fact, was the invention of the Legis-
lature. In various instances the Legislature had no doubt
sanctioned the conversion of isolated cdnals into railways, and his
Learned Friend Mr. Austin had attempted to make the Committee
believe that the present was just as sieple as the cases of those
c mats. But that was no isolated canal, for it was the water com-
munication between the great city of London and Liverposl, and
had been used from the time of its opening for the use of the districts
intervening. It could not be considered merely as a communication be-
tween Wolverhampton and Liverpool. And if the Committee were of
•

opinion that the present was a great link of communication between

London and Liverpool, were they prepared to deprive the public of
the great accommodation which this canal had afforded to the public
since its opening ? He doubted whether the Legislature would
sanction the " (Jr.) ing up" of this railway. From what had already
taken place before a Select Committee of the House of Coat-
moos, this Committee would find that this matter was not as
trifling as represented by Mr. Austin. That Select Committee
had decided that the public should not, except in very few instancu
indeed, be deprived of the present canal 'communication in England.
For that advantage the public had bareained when the different
railway Acts had passed. Having made these remarks, he referred
the Committee to the second report of the Select Committee ap•
pointed to consider the subject of railway and canal amalgamation,
&c. Before that Committee sat it became known that the COMM sion
of this canal into a railway was proposed. The Committee, after
hearing evidence on the subject, came to the conclusion
that the present competition between railways and canals find been
the means ofreducing the cost of traffic one-seventh.
The Hon. CHAIRMAN—That is only in some cases ; it is not general.
Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE—Of course the Committee stated that
there were instances which had come to their knowledge in which
this had been the result. The Committee also stated in their report
that it was obviously of importance that Parliament should not lightly
sanction any arrangement which would deprive the public of the ad-
vantage afforded by the rivalry at present existing between railways
and canals. They also stat d that they had come to the general con-
clusion that a most searching inquiry should be made into the merits
of each case before Parliament sanctioned the conversion of canals
into, or their amalgamation with, railways. This subject was not,
therefore, one of the amount of profit which it had produced to its
proprietors, as represented by his Learned Friends ; there
was a question of far higher importance than that,
and that was the interest of the public in the exist-
ence of competition at present existing between railways and
canals. The canal was es'ablished for the purpose of giving the
public an independent line of water communication in the districts of
Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Shrewsbury, and other important
places. The evidence given before the Select Committee to which
he had alluded went no further than this, that an isolated canal,
which (Ldform any important link of communication be-
tween different parts of the kingdom, might, with benefit to
the public and the proprietors, amalgamate with, or be converted
into a railway. But this was no isolated canal ; it formed a most
Important link of communication between London and Liverpool.
Mr. Stephenson was in error when he said that canals could not suc-
cessfully compete with railways. Mr Scott had given evidence to
that elect before the Select Committee, and that gentleman was in-
timately acquainted with the subject. Mr. Scott said in

his evidence that he should decidedly object to any
thoroughfare canal like this being converted into a railway,
and he instanced this canal at the same time. This, in
that gentleman's opinion, was the best can-I in tte kingdom, and yet
they were now called upon to destroy it. It had a descending lockage
the whole way from Birmingham to Live: pool. If this Bill were
sanctioned the iron grasp of the monopolizing London and Birming-
ham and Manchester and Birmingham Companies would be extended
and m stronger.

The Learned Counsel had not concluded his case when the Com•
mittee rose, the Chairman having announced that they would re
assemble at twelve o'clock to-morrow.

GROUP LVI.
zoNDorz AND ELACIIIITALL EXTENSION,

(Continued from our Afternoon Edition.)
The opposition occupied the Committee nearly the whose of the
day, but it turued out to be ineffective, and the Committee decided
tluit the preamble to the Bill had been decided,
The Committee adjourned shortly after four o'clock.

GROUP LVIL.

THE LONDON AND BIRMINGHAM GRAND
ZUNCTI N, AND MANCHESTER AND RIR-
MINGHAVI RAILWAY ANIA.I.GANIA%

(Continued from our Afternoon Edition.)

Captain Huish, manager of the Grand Junction Railway Traffic,
was called, and gave evidence to the effect that the arrangements
which the proposed 11111 was intended to sanction had been found to
operate beneflcialy to the puhlic as well as to the parties concerned
in the three companies.
The Committee ultimately postponed their decision upon the pre-
amble until to-morrow, in order to consult tee Board of Trade in the
meantime. •

he o her Bills in the group were also postponed with the
'tune view.

MPERLAL PARLIAMENT,

(THIS EVENING.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Their Lordships met to-day at Five o'clock.
THE BROAD AND NARROW GAUGES.
The Earl of RIPON laid on the table a report from the
Board of Trade, rel tive to the subject of the railway gauges.
MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Messengers from the House of Commons brought up severa
Bills. which were ordered to be laid on the table.
BATHS AND WASH-HOUSES FOR THE LABOUR-
ING CLASSES.
The Biehop of LONDON wished for a few moments to
direct the attention of their Lordships to a subject, which,
though not one of great political importance, was still one en-
titled to grave consideration. He had some petitions to present
to them which were important. or, account of the signatures.
them, but still more so on the subject to which it related.
That subject was intimately connected with the welfare of the
labouring classes, and he craved their favourable consideration
to them. The petitions had reference to the establishment of
baths and wash-houses for the labouring classes, and prayed
that they would pass a law enabling boroughs and parishes, of
a certain size, to borrow money to form such institutions.
The plan was sufficient to pay an ample return for the capital
that might be laid out upon it, but he must remind
their Lordships that it was useless to attempt
to improve the moral condition of the
attention
ing classes unless they at the same time paid some
to their physical comfort. Their Lordships mihti
of the
at-
tempt to improve the political and social conditionsame
time, took the
avain
labouring gasses, unless they at the s
trouble to promote their individual andarnepeerrsomnaani
from his
—(Hear.) They must first remove the p
extreme state of destitution,
yovinmgjghlist
eat:l:tont,
improving
endeavour to experiment upon the best means
to attack his as a moral agent,
spiritual condition. They ust relieve him frem Ilia extreme
misery, before they attempted
in which they could at all
expect wish any reason,
and this was the only way
to improve the moral state
of the labouring classes of society. Their Lordships would allow
they had tested by experience on a small scale it was true, but
still sufficient
ufficient to justify their making the experiment on a much
larger scale. In asking, therefore, for an allowance from the t
public funds, he was only asking for that which would
make a large return on the outlay of capital that
might be used for the formation of baths and washhouses '
The first petition he had to present was from the bankers and
merchants of London, and was signed by the heads of more
than 100 principal firms ; the second was signed by the Chair-
m44 gad Deputy Chiiirmai of gm London pock Company,

who had many thousands of labourers in their employ-
ment. The next was from the churchwardens and over-
seers of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields. The next was from the
guardians of the poor of the same parish. The next was
from the perochial clergy of the metropolis, signed by 120
clergymen ; and he felt assured that if time had: been allowed
it would have been signed by every man of the body, from
whom it emanated; for they felt it would be bring-
ing the poor more within the sphere of their spiritual
ministrations, and would tend more than anything else to
improve the labouring classes. It should be recollected
that great complaints had been made that hundreds of
thousands in the metropolis were crowded together,
so that one family occupied one room ; but in consequence of
the numerous improvements in the metropolis in many of these
instances, there were now two families crowded into one
room. It did not appear that any provision bad been
made against this evil in carrying out those improve-
ments. It should be also recollected that the step
which he now advocated was only as a drop in the ocean.
In consequence of this system of things, a gradual deteriora-
tion had taken place in the physical and moral condition of
these classes. About twenty years since, when he was a
parish clergyman, he knew a house in which there was
sixteen rooms, and in each of these there was a family
consisting of four person, in all, sixty-four individual...
but that was not so bad as the present condition of things. In
houses thus thickly inhabited it would clearly be seen the in-
jury which must be felt by washing the linen of the family,
where the houses would be in a constant state of humidity from
the steam. He found that in the town of Liverpool, where
an institution of this kind was established under the sanction
of the cerporatiOn of that place, the greatest eagerness was
manifested on the part of the working classes to avail them-
selves of the benefit of the bath. In the year ending 28th of
May, 1846, there were used 3,832 cold baths, and 16,764
warm baths, making altogether 20,596 baths. The receipts
for the year were 383/., being an increase on the
preceding year of 6,667 baths, and 1501. on the receipts.
This showed u desire on the part of the labouring classes to
avail themselves of the benefits of these institutions. A
similar institution was established lately by an association of
benevolent individuls in Glasshouse-yard, a locality where
probably none of their Lordships ever penetrated—
(laughter),—and the lowest and poorest classes of
society, who could not even be called respectable la-
bourers, were in the habit of resorting to it.
In the second half-year the number of bathers amounted to

14,124, and the number of washers amounted to 19,937, a total
of 63,142 persons benefited, and if to these you add the number
of persons for whom articles have been washed, you
will snake a total of 87,0,;0 directly benefited,
and the whole of this good had been done
f..r a sum not greatly exceeding 400.". He need not point out
to their Lordships the immense beneficial effects which must
neees.arily arise from such institutions, they were sufficiently
known to their Lordships, and he would not there.
fore trespass upon them further than to quote the opinion
of a medical man of some experience on the subject.
The petitioners stated that, the returns would, in all probabi-
..

lity, amount in the whole to 13i per cent., and ifurnish ex-
cellent interest on the capital invested. The petitioners were
from a large number of merchants, bankers of the city of
London ; the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Asso-
ciation fur the Establishment of Baths for the La-
bouring Classes; from the Board of Guardians of the
parish of St. Martins-lc-Grand; and one signed by 121 paro-
chial clerg}men' which was entitled to special consideration, as
they complained that the want of accommodation for forward-
ing personal cleanliness, interfered with the attendance of the
pourer classes at chinch. He hoped steps would be taken to
meet this state of things, and that the recreation and innocent
amusement of the labouring classes, which had been so little
attended to for a long time, would be now considered.
unless they provide] baths and wash-houses for the poorest
order of the working classes, so as to beget habits of cleanliness,
it would be vain for them to provide amusement and instruc-
tion for them by museums or otherwise.
The Marquis of NORMAN BY thought that the Rev.
Prelate owed no apology for introducing so important a sub-
ject. It was a most important question, and in con-
nexion with a subject that had been before the other
House of Parliament the dwellings of the poor
one entitled to their greatest eon,ideration.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Rev. Prelate was the first to draw the attention of
the Government to this question and he deserved great praise
for his exertions, and he trusted that he would not confine himself
to simplify erecting baths and washbowes, but go to further
improvements necessary to the health and well being of the
poorer classes of this metropolis.
Lord KINNAIRD said that it was impossible to imagine
the distress and misery existing in this metropolis--it required
occular proof to give any one an idea of its extent. The poor
were crowded together in consequence of the improvements
taking place in other parts of the metiopolis. There were
buildings now going on at Bethnal-green, and there was not
• one sewer provided" for them, and this, he thought, showed
the necessity, and, indeed, he considered it high time that a
Board of Health should be established.
ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.

Lord KINNAIRD said he had to present ;petition on the
Electric Telegraph Bill, the report of which was to be brought
up this evening.
The Duke of BEAUFORT objected to its reception, as
being needless.
Lord KINNAIRD said that the petition was based on public
grounds.
Lord BROUGHAM—Give us its prayer.
Lord KINNAIRD said that this was a subject of great
public interest, and the object of this petition was to prevent
the carrying of this Bill wiliout further consideration. The
petitioner was not opposed to the Bill itself, but, according to
the prayer, to provide for its being carried out. From these
statements, it appeared, that if the Bill were carried in its
present form, it might prevent the improvement of the
system; for if they gave the power sought by this
Bill, it would rssuredly create a monopoly. This evil
had already been largely felt by the water and gas companies.
The report was to be brought up this evening and he thought
that if a clause were to be introduced at some future stage of
the Bill obliging all companies to give this advantage to the
Go-
vernment, it would in a great degree hinder the mischief which
the petitioner anticipated, ankhe should move that the petition
be referred to the Committee.
The Duke of BEAUFORT stated that the report had
already been brought up, and the object of the petitioner had
already been answered. The petition indeed had been pre-
sented, and had been fully considered by the Committee.
CORN-LAWS.
The Bishop of LONDON presented a petition from Durham
praying their Lordships to pass the Corn Bill as speedily as
possible. Ile considered it would be of great benefit to the
agricultural portion of the people of that county.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY concurred in the prayer
of the petition. The Noble Marquis defended himself against
the charges which had been brought against him of
having changed his principles and formed an alliance with the
Anti-Corn-law League. He had always stated both in public
and private that no Ministry could long resist the repeal of the
corn-laws.

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM, who was alluded to by the
Nohie Marquis, briefly explained.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM then gave notice that in the
Committee on the Corn-law Bill he would move that the words
" until the first of February, 1849," should be omitted.
Earl FITZWILLIAM presented a petition from a place
whose name we could not catch in favour of an immediate
repeal.
REPORT ON THE LONDON AND YORK BILL.

The Earl of LOVELACE brought up the report upon this
Bill, and moved for the discharge of the Committee. They
had been now nineteen days at work, and they had passed all
th? unopposed Bills.
Lord BROUGHAM considered that the proposition was a
very reasonable one, but he considered that it would be better
to defer it till Friday next.

Lord VIVIAN objected to such a course. He did not
think that the Committee had strocg claims upon the consi-
deration of their Lordships House, after having now sat for
nineteen days, and particularly when their Lordships recol-
lected that in all the other Committees of their Lordships
House, not one of them had such a number of
Railway Bills before them as had occupied, or would
occupy half the time. He was aware of this tact, and there-
fore he trusted their Lordships would accede to the propo-
sition.

The Earl of DEVON said he felt quite assured that the
Committee whose duty it was to select members of this House
to serve on Committees, would consider thie subject with the
anxiety it deserved.
Lord REDESDALE said it was not the duty of the Com-
mittee who arranged those railways in groups, to consider this
question. At the same time he should admit that the request
made by the Committee was a reasonable one, and that it
would be easy to refer the Bills before this Committee to
another one. No doubt it might be urged that
a great deal of the evidence upon some of those Bills had already
been heard by this Committee; but then he did not think
that the consideration of a few days' additional expense which
would be incurred by referring the Bills to another Com-
mittee should be any reason for refusing this request. lie
suggested that the House should decide upon it on Thursday
next.

Earl FITZ WILLIAM said, that this question appeared to
him to open a much wider field for consideration than the mere
question of giving leave of absence to this Committee, and
therefore it should be considered a 3 one of very great importance.
They could no longer go on upon the present system, and he
could not allow the opportunity to pass without observing how
inefficient were the present means of conducting lh!s great
and important system of national intercourse.
Lord BROUGHAM agreed with the Noble Lord as to the
necessity of a new and independent department, not
to supersede but to aid the Parliament, in its investigation
into these Bills. It would be of more satisfaction to the
country, and to the promoters of these Bills, that a department
should be set apart, to which all private Bills ought to be re-
ferred.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE rose, and was
(LEFT SPEAKING.)

ROUSE OF COMMONS.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
MORAYSHIRE RAILWAY BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passsed.
STAINES AND RICHMOND RAILWAY BILL.
Colonel WOOD moved the order of the day for the ad-
journed debate on motion for re-commitment of this Bill, and
took the opportunity of remarking upon the difficulty which!!
had teen thrown in the way of the Cumpauy by the lerigng
ened delay of , he Commissioners of Woods and Forests, ingivit. .
their nett.tive to the measure. He also thatcomplainedi. l'
to the
Committee who had been appointed to inquire
merits of the Bill had net received sufficient evideLcn
to
vote in
Mr. SOTHERON said it was not hie intention
Woods and
Board of
any way on the matter before the House. In
the vacillating conduct of the
he
Forests, the Committee of which
justified in making
mem-
ber, had considered themselves j wasoseaqueneeof
at least for the
further proceedings,
have the effect of delaying.
a special report on the
decision the House might come to,
Whatevner
present session. Bill, which, as they thought, would
no case should any public body to
be was of opinion thaet
offer any opinion, or time after the second reading of the
which a Bill might
tbh.roriwetearrneydobfostracitise
jansstehnet,wbaey
oaflloihweedproto.
H. BERKELEY observed that, when the debate was
Mr.
the Bill, at any
adjourned, it was with the earn ess understanding that the
opinionjirielis of
of the Woods and Forests on the Bill was to be given.
The Hon. Member was proceeding with his observations,
to order, and said that as a mem-
present, the re • in-
bwehrAelonrf. he
hileetjwWal‘sloEion'dtsewrharuonpdctaeForests was
required
formation coutd be obtained.
asnl
had
oa
fhd had
m e btn e
withe
Richmond,n
tmadeandhe
appro-
bation the
other-
wise SicompanyrtoGim. tCio,
rLomyEaekßietK. saTi drainsdhe thesf oe rp therP tePiawsi
of the Board of 'Woods and Forests, and they had in
consequence withdrawn their opposition to the line on the part
of the Crown property.
Mr. H. VILLI ERS observed that the delay had been occa-
sioned by the Commissioners, and that it was owing entirely
to the Woods and Forests. The present motion was not
intended to ba an appeal from the Committee, and he should
Support the motion.

A desultory conversation then took place, in which Mr. F.
Scott, Lord Somerset, Mr. Bailey, Mr. Wakley, and Col.
Peel joined, and the gallery was ordered to be cleared.
On our re• admission the numbers were—
For the re-commitment of the Bill ... 61
Against it....
Diifirit7 Polo the mogaraithl .71

This Bill was consequently lost.
THIRD READINGS.
anaortoge
Caledonian and Dumbartonshire Junction Railway ; C
ler Rail.
and Oxford Railway ; Dunblane, Donne, and Callann
way ; East and West Yorkshire Junction Railway ; Glark."l..
Strathaven, and Lesmahagow Direct Railway ; l‘t
passd :;--
.e
The following Bills were read a third time and
marnock and Troon Railway ; Liverpool Improvernenta
London and South Western Railway Acts Amendment;
Slamannan Railway (Bathgate and Jawcraig Branches ;
Thames Haven Dock and Railway (No. 2.) • Wilson tclft,!:
.
Morningside, and Coltness Railway (Bathgate iranch) .
sontown, Morningside, and Coltness Railway (Caledonian
Junction) ; Wilsontown, Morningside, and Coltness Railway
(Improvement and Branches).
CULLEN'S ESTATE BILL.
This Bill was read a second time and passed.
REPORTS.
amendments
The following reports were brought up, the
and alteration, agreed to. and the Bills ordered to be en-
grossed :—Clitheroe Junction Railway : Earl of BtOinla,
Estate Bill; London and Birmingham Railway (Newport rifii.
nell Branch); North Gravesend Railway ; Oxford, Worcester'
and Wolverhampton Railway ; Sheffield General Cemetertf
Shropshire 1 nion Railways and Canal (Newton to Crewee
with Branches); South-Eastern Railway (Maidstone to
Strood, near Richester); South-Eastern Railway (Canterbtiq
to Dover) ; South Wales Railway; South Yorkshire Coal
Railway and Canal.
WEXFORD, WAKEFIELD, AND VALENTIA
RAILWAY.
On the motion of Mr. SPOONER this Bill waa eithdrawn•
ST. MARTIN'S BURIAL GROUND, 13IRMINGHA51-
Mr. SPOONER moved that it be an instruction to the
Committees on the London and Birmingham Railway (Birn"
ingham Extension) Bill, the Birmingham, Wolverhampton:
and Stour Valley Railway ( Birmingham, Wolveyhampton, and
Dudley lines) Bill, and the Shrewsbnry and lairrningb_ of
persons Railway Bill, that they do entertain the petition of reizatl"y
persons deceased interred in St. Martin's Burial-gro3o„
Birmingham, notwithstanding such petition was not presenteas
three clear days betore the day appointed for the first meeting
of th.s Committees.
Mr. ORMSBY GORE said that a petition to the contrary
effect of that stated by the Honourable Member for Birming-
ham had been presented by the trustees, and if the House
.._
sanctioned the motion he must move that this petition be also
referred to the Committee.
Mr. W. 11. COLLETT seconded the motion of the Hon.
Member for Shropshire.
After a few words, which did not reach the gallery, from
Lord G. SOMERSET,
Mr. SCOTT said that he could hardly understand the
reason for the application of the Hon. Member for Birming-
ham ; at any rate, if it were granted, he should call upon the
House to do him equal justice, and allow hid petition to be
heard before the Committee.
Mr. SPOONER could not consent to withdraw his. ;,notion.
The present was a case of a novel and an important chars-"ter,
and should be decided at once. He hoped and trusted that it
would be allowed to undergo the invessigatien of a Committee.
As he was not inclined to oppose the wishes of the Houses, he
should withdraw his motion.
Motion withdrawn accordingly.
KILMARNOCa AND TROON RAILWAY.
This Bill, on the motion of Dr. BO WRING, was read
$
third time and passed.
Messengers from the Lords brought in several Bills.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion of Sir Sir J. GRAHAM, it was agreed that
the House at its rising, should adjourn till Wednesday.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
Col. WOOD gave notice that he should mnve, on the
being put for the House going into Committee on the Poor He'
moval Bill, that the Bill be divided into two, one Bill to be.
limited to the exemption of poor persons from the liability of
being removed from parishes in which they have long residedia
Dr. BOW RING moved for a return of the amounts net Pod
into the Exchequer, but deducted for costs of collectieni
all other purposes, from the gross amounts received by '7'l of
departments of revenues, separately stated. Also, a
of
Tyr;
the amounts received by the various departments 0' `-re-esh'
tnot.,iets
diture, from all sources except Paibamentary grants or issuer
from the Exchequer in the year ending the sth day
January, 1846.—Agreed to.
Mr. CHRISTIE moved for a return of the
of
age, date
e..
appointment, and salary of Patrick Shaw, Esq., Advocate, P .
scoter of signatures in Exchequer in Scotland, and °i tetto
d hie
amount of allowance to an assistant paid by
salary. Statement of the duties of presenter of signatures, show'
t.ti
itig how they differ from those of the agent for revising 0..700
of charters, proposed to be appointed by a Bill now
before
Sco
the House, " to alter and amend the Practice in
with regard to Crown Charters and Receipts from
the 4th section of which Bill provides that the revising
.agethe
shall be a writer of the signet ; and the 26th secti6.l3c-to the
office and duties of presenter of signatures shall cease -lye drag
passing of the Bill, but that Mr. Shaw shall continue te
his salary during his life-time."—Agreed to.
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE acid, that he took the liberty
the close of the debate on Friday evening last, of me'rfng tiota
the Poor Removal gill should je taken into the consideraet
of the House that evening with the view of its taking Pr ,_ad,
dente of any other notice of motion. The public "
a right to this course, and they had also a right to
Bill until
that the House would not goon with the Irish Coercion
the Poors' Removal Bill had been disposed of and discussedb
by that House. In consequence of the notice givent,
the Right Hon. Baronet at the Head of the Governorecnarricd
Chanceryn,t
the occasion of the Irish Coercion Bill having bees such a.
On the first reading by a majority of that Howes '*on'
course was expected, because on that occasion the Right Poet
Baronet was asked when he intended to go On
Removal Bill, and the course of action then laid down by the.
the first
Right Honourable Baronet was, that after
proceed
reading of the Irish Coersien Bill, they should .
with the Corn and Customs, some few votes of supply'
on
and that he should also go on to take the sense of the House
the sugar duties before proceeding with the second reading of
the Coercion Bill. They bad disposed of the corn and customs
—they had had votes of supply, but they had not bad the
discussion on the Poor's Removal Bill, and it was now pro.
with the
posed to take the second reading of the Irish Coercion
Bill before they made any progress in the Poor Removal Bill.
The House was called on in the first instance to take th.a first
reading of the Irish Coercion Bill, and not from any admirer
tion of its provisions, but as a compliment to the House of
Lords, they were called on to agree to that first reading at
once. That arrangement was made, anti in justice to many
Gentlemen on that side of the House, he would sal
that under that impression many had voted fur the
that rea, ing who intended to oppose it on the second'
But now, he e,ontnded that the House was taken by. surprise
by the Government supporting and adopting the motion of bia
Hon. Friend the Member tor Mahon (Mr. E. Dennison)'
They were called upon the other night to enter Cominitteei
pro
.1 irma, in order that the Government and his Hon. Friend
might introduce amendments into his Bill, which
was
:thoeld
altogether remodelled ; but he wanted to know, because be
that the instruction agreed to on Friday night did not convey
the sense of the House, as the House was taken by surprise ; and
he now objected to take the Irish Coercion Bill, bacatisett
.t
was ineunibent upon them to take the Poor-
law Removal Bill
this evening, in order to discharge the instruction poled till
other night. Even the Noble Lord (Lord John Ruse?.
had not pledged himself to support it, but in addition
to the objections he (Mr. Duncembe) had stated against it,
he maintained that the instructions would altogether render
the Bill a new one as it would have to be remodelled. Ha bail
a right to inquire whether the House was takers
by surprise or not with respect to the instructions
and with that view he wished agaia to have the sense of the
House upon it, and if the Committee of the House was averse
to it, that it might be discharged, and that the Government
never
rt
wnaost
abe
Billpl put to
whichthe e
trouble of
more
proceedingwit
remodellingthan
h
it. Thteree
Pocr-law Removal Bill, and it was a disgrace to the Poor
law Commissioners to have laid such a Bill on the table of the
House, because it would add to the difficulties in connexion with
the question of settlement. He should, therefore, conclude, by
moving that the order of the day for the second reading of the
Poor-law Removal Bill be read; in preference to the second
reading of the Irish Coercion Bill.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
The SPEAKER having put the question,
Sir J. GRAHAM said he, for one, did not object to the
emendation of the Hon. Gentleman, but his approval of
It
must 'be qualified by the understanding that he alma
only suppert it for the purpose of the
thie
Poor-law Removal Bill. He would tell the Honourab
what had occrred ;since Friday evening last. In obedience to
what he considered the opinion of the majority of the House;
on Saturday morning he gave directions to propose clausal':
accordance with those sentiments, those clauses luta
been prepared, but he had not had time to consider them.
If it were the pleasure of the House, he was quite prepared ot!
Wednesday or Friday next to
give notice that he should
introduce the clauses to which allusion bad been
already made, But !the Honourable Gentleman
was not satisfied with the decision of Friday night,
last, and that the course proposed to be taken by his Right
Hon. Friend at the head of the Government, with reference to
the second reading of the measure, the discussion on
which had been fixed for that evening. What
had taken place with regard to the Poor-law R°'
moral Bill was in exact conformity with the
arrangements that had been previously made. If the 0°?..,
Member for Finsbury should think that this matter wow"
receive a fairer consideration in a fuller House, he was certainly
at liberty to give notice of his intention to move that the subject
be reconsidered.