The Sun.
London, England, 1848-03-29 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MARCH 29, 1848.

Sperm Oil is not cheaper, but there is less demand, and
privaiely only a limited business has been concluded.

such evidence ? Why, it was totally wanting, be-
cause, if any one had gone to the Crown-office on the '
day when the Hon. Member was sworn or the day
following, the answer he would have received would
have been that no such return had been sent to that
office. He thought, under these circumstances,
looking at the doubt in which this subject
was involved, that some inquiry should take place
into the matter.—(Hear, hear.) He believed
that no instance existed of a Member being sworn at-
the table where there was no return from the Crown-
office of the Hon. Member being elected.—(Hear.)
In the case of the late Great Grimsby election two
Members were returned, but the officer had omitted
to make the return, and in consequence the Members
were obliged to remain in town some time before
they could take their seats, and a special com-
plaint was made in that case of the nege
fact of the officer. It was admitted then,
and had been admitted before, that until the return
was sent to the Crown-office, the gentleman returned
was not a Member of that House —(Hear, hear)—
and could not, therefore present himself to the Clerk
at the table and asked to be sworn.—(Hear, hear.)
It might be said, on the other side, that that the return
to the Crown- office was a mere matter of form, and
that there was no special reason why a Member
should not be sworn at the table though
his return had not been made to the
Crown-cffice . If such a principle was ad-
mitted they would continually have Mem-
bers coming by the railway, and getting themselves
sworn as Members of the House before the House
had any opportunity at all of knowing whether they
were Members or not.—(Bear.) Now what was the
course adopted by the Hon. Member for Kinsale
after he was sworn ? Why, having been sworn at
the table on the 13th of March, he, acting, no
doubt under advice, had forborne to vote
in that House on the Wednesday, Thursday,
and Friday following, and he did not appear in the
House till after the return had been sent in to the
Crown-office, and all the acts done which were neces-
sary to constitute him properly a Member of the
House. If the proper course had been pursued in
the first instance by the Hon. Member for Kinsale,
why, he would ask, did he not vote on the days he
had alluded to? as on those days most im-
portant
measures connected with the Go-
vernment were brought forward. The fact was,
the Hon. Gentleman had forborne to vote be-
cause he had beets advised to do so, and he (Mr.
Goulburn) thought that was as strong en indication of
the lion. Member for Kinsale's conviction that he
had acted wrong in being sworn before the return to
the Crown-office as could well be imagined. He
trusted that, if this Committee was appointed, the
matter would be well inquired into, and some strict
line laid down for the government of matters of this
description in future, in order that the House might
have some guide for its future proceedings.
The motion having been seconded,
Mr. HAWES rose to address the House. He
had no wish to oppose the motion of the Right Hon.
Gentleman for the appointment of a Committee ; far
from it, he felt bound to thank the Right lion.
Gentleman for bringing the subject forward.—(Hear,
hear.) He courted inquiry, and did not fear the
result.---(Hear, hear.) He had a very short and
plain statement to make to the House.—(Hear, hear.)
He admitted that on the 11th he was returned as
Member for Kinsale ; he admitted also that on the
15th he had presented himself at the table, and
was swarm. He did so, under the supposition
that having been elected a Member, he was bound to
enter upon the performance of his duties as early as
possible.—(Hear, hear.) He felt bound to confess
that he had never before been elected a Member of
that house during a session, and he was not aware
then, nor was he now, that a difference existed be-
tween an election during a session and one before it.
—(Hear.) Ile had never been required before to pro-
duce the return to the Crown-office. He had pre-
sented himself at the table, as he thought
properly, and was sworn, and he contended that at that
time he was entitled to all the rights and privileges
of a Member. He fully admitted that the return
was not made to the Crown-office till the 18th.—
(Hear.) Having stated thus much, he would leave
the matter in the hands of the House, and say no-
thing further on the subject, except begging the
House to understand, that in doing so he waived no
right, abandoned no privilege, or surrendered any
of the rights of his constituents that had
sent him to Parliament; but that, on the other hand,
he was determined to defend those rights at all
hazards, whatever might be the consequences.
Sir G. GREY had no hesitation in saying that no
illegality had occurred in consequence of the course
adopted by his Hon. Friend, and that his only
motive in abstaining from voting as he had done, was
out of deference to the House. (Hear, hear.)
Ile thought it most desirable that a Committee should
be appointed, in order that one uniform practice
might be pursued in future in these matters.

After some observations from Mr. GOULBURN the
Co:Tonittce Was ordered to be appointed.
. _ _ _ _

APPEALS IN CRIMINAL CASES BILL.

Mr. EWART, in moving the second reading of
the Bill, said he understood that a similar Bill had
been introduced by Lord Campbell in the house
of Peers, but it did not go so far as his own.
The Noble Lord's Bill simply gave appeals in mat-
ters of law, while his own Bill net only authorised
appeals upon points of law, but in matters of fact too.
Since he had introduced the Bill he had received
many valuable suggestions, which in no way
affected the principle of the Bill, and be would most
readily accede to them, but before proceeding further
he should be glad to know what were the intentions
of the Right lion. the Secretary of State for the
Home Department as to the second reading.
Sir GEORGE GREY was fully prepared to admit
the importance of this question, but it was connected
with many other important points of law, and it there-
fore required extreme caution in proceeding with it.
There was every probability of the Bill introduced in
the House of Lords being referred to a Select Com-
mittee, before whom the Judges and other law audio-
'flays of the country would be examined, and he
could not help thinking that his Honourable Friend
would exercise a sound discretion in postponing the
second reading till the result of that inquiry was laid
before them.--(llear, hear.)
Mr. AGLIONBY was in favour-of the principle
of the Bill, but he thought its object• would be better
obtained by postponing it till the inquiry in the Lords'
had been brought to a close. He trusted, however, that
the Right Hon. Baronet who had just sat down would
ti,e his influence to have the whole question fully dis-
cussed in the House of Lords' Committee, for the
time had arrived when every body felt that a law of
this sort ought to be established.
Mr. HUME must also join with his Hon. and
Learned Friend the Member fur Cockermouth in
recommending the postponement of the Bill.
Mr. EWART acceded to the request, and said he
would postpone the second reading till after Easter.
The second reading was accordingly postponed.
ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.

On the question being put for the postponement of
this Bill till after the other orders of the day,
Mr. LAW urged the expediency, if not the neces-
sity, of postponing this important question till after
Easter, when the entire day might be allotted for its
discussion.

Mr. ANSTEY said he had given way in favour of
the Election Recognizances Bill, which it was impor-
tant should be got through Committee without delay,
and he could not say what course he should pursue
till that Bill had been disposed of.
➢lr. NE WDEGATE thought it was due to the
opponents of the Bill that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman should decide at once whether he could
proceed with the Bill to-day or not.
Mr. ANSTEY said if the Election Rccognizances
Bill were not disposed of till after four o'clock, he
would not bring on his Bill to-day.
Mr. MONSELL said the object of the opponents
of this Bill was evidently delay. He trusted the
Hun. and Learned Gentleman would proceed in any
event to-day.
After some further discussion the Bill was post-
Polled till the other orders of the day had been dis-
posed of.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND)

Strangers wet e ordered to withdraw,- when there
appeared—
For the insertion of the clause.. 90
Against it •• .. 51
Majority for the clause..... —39
The clause as amended was then agreed to, as were
also the remaining clauses of the Bill.
Mr. S. WORTLEY here proposed the addition of a
clause, giving to the Committee the pow er of deciding
that in the cases of any recognizances which should
prove void or invalid, but which invalidity was not
owing to the lathes or neglect of the parties, or in
the cases of recognizances which were not clearly
void, then that such recognizances should be allowed
to be received.

Mr. ELLIOT opposed the clause.
Sir R. INGLIS, thinking that no discretion ought
to be allowed to the Committee, filt bound to oppose
the introduction of the clause also.

After a good deal of de.zultory conversation,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the omis•
sion of certain words, upon which the Committee
divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 72
Against it .
Majority

The amendment was accordingly lost, and the
clause was agreed to.'
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he should
take the sense of the House on the Bill as amended
on the bringing up of the report.
Air. S. ‘VORTLEY said he intended to bring .up
the report to-morrow, so that the Bill might be
printed and placed in the hands of Hon. Members in
the meantime. He should more the consideration of
the report to•morrow.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said all he was
desirous of doing, after the Bill was in the hands of
Hon. Members, was to state to the House the effect
of the alterations they had made.
The House then resumed.
Sir R. 11. INGLIS considered that further time
than to-morrow should be given for the perusal of
the Bill, the original fOrm of which had to-day been
materially altered.
Mr. ELLIOT said many Hon. Members did not
clearly understand the alterations that had been made
in the Bill, and therefore,ample time should be given
for its consideration.

The notice of the Hog. and Learned Member was,
however, not departed from.
THE ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.

The Earl of SURREY, after a short discussion,
as to whether this Bill should be proceeded with,
it being a quarter to four, the understanding having
been that it should not be taken after four o'clock,
moved that the House go into Committee.
Mr. LAW moved—first, that the other orders of
the day be proceeded with ; next, that the House
should adjourn, which was met with loud cries of
" No, no ;" he then moved that the order be postponed
until the 19± of April. The two former motions
he withdrew, taking his stand upon the last, which he
submitted as an amendment.

Mr. WALPOLE said he had just come from the
Court of Chancery, and that he left Mr. Anstey
speaking.
Mr. R. YORKE said the business of the country
would be neglected if it was allowed to give way to
private convenience.
Sir R. 11. INGLIS considered that the position
in which the House was ❑ow placed arose from not
taking the orders and disposing of them as they
stood.

Sir G. CLERK hoped the House would not be
forced to devide, and appealed to the Noble Lord
to withdraw his 'notion, and to consent to the
amendment. •

Lord MORPETH said the understanding was,
that the Bill should not be taken after four o'clock ;
that hour had virtually arrived, and as a long discus-
sion might be anticipated, the object of the Hon.
Gentleman with whom the Bill originated would be
better answered if the motion were postponed.
Mr. MONSELL said the Hon. and Learned Gen.
tleman (Mr. Anstey) had informed him if he had an
opportunity of bringing in the Bill at a minute before
four, he should do so.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said the
fact was he was fighting against his own inclination ;
he would, therefore, consent to the postponement of
the Committee until the 19th of April.
FRAME-WORK KNITTERS.

Sir HENRY LIALFORD then rose to move for
a Select Committee, to take into consideration the
report and evidence laid before Parliament, in 1844,
by her Majesty's Commissioner for inquiry into the
condition of the frame- work knitters, and to make
such further inquiries, as may appear necessary, in
order to ascertain whether any, and if any, what
legislative measures can be devised for the
relief of their lone-continued distress.--(Hear.)
In the last session of Parliament he had introduced a
13111 upon the subject, but his object at the present
time was to move fur the appointment of a Com-
mittee to consider the nature of the reports which
had been presented to the House, and report whether
any and what legislative measures were necessary
to be adopted for the purpose of amelio-
rating the condition of the people.—(Hear, hear.)
Ile did net think that the House would
sanction any such mockery as that of instituting ex-
tensive inquiries into the subject, and then refuse to
propose any legislative measures called for by the
result of those inquiries. The parties seeking for
relief had been informed by the Government that
steps would be taken to remove the causes of their
grievances. He could assure the House that grievances
did exist, and all that he now asked for was the ap •
pointment of a Committee to inquire into these
further grievances.—(Hear, hear.) He knew it
might be objected that it was improper to
interfere with the regulation of trade. He did not
agree with that abstract principle, without references
to particular cases. If the House should adopt the
principle of non-interference, when would they con-
sent to repeal all the laws which had been passed for
that ohj ee t Would they repeal, for instance, the
law prohibiting the payment of wages in any other
manner than by money ?—.(Hear, hear.) He trusted
'that the Right, lion. the President of the Board of
Trade would concur with him in the opinion that it
was advisable to appoint the Committee in question.
Mr. lIUME said he was most decidedly of opinion
that masters and men ought to be allowed to make
their own terms without any interference on thepart
of the Legislature. 11.0 thought. that the Honourable
Member was introducing a very dangerous doctrine ;
they might take a lesson from what was going on
on the other side of the Channel, where they
might see numbers of workmen demanding of
the Government regulations respecting the wages
of workmen, and the Government had foolishly ac
ceded to their demands ; and he had no doubt within
a twelvemonth the House would see the la-
mentable result of that interference. Masters
were already leaving the country in great numbers,
on the ground that they could not carry on their
business upon the terms prescribed by the Go-
vernment. Every result that had been brought about
by this interference had proved most ruinous.--
(Hear, hear.) He maintained that no Act 'of
Parliament could beneficially arrange the amount of
labour and of wages between masters and work-
men. At the period when the frame-work knitters
were carrying on their disturbances in the coun-
try, the distress was as great, if not greater, than
it was at the present time. The Commissioners
appointed to inquire into that subject reported that
the only effectual remedy- for the great distress was
a more equitable distribution of labour.—(" Hear,
hear," from Sir H. Belford.) But then no act
of Parliament was able to regulate that dis-
tribution ; there was the fallacy into which
Honourable Members fell on this subject. He
did not think that any further amount of informa-
tion could be obtained than the House was already in
possession of, and he should most certainly oppose the
appointment of the Committee.
Sir J. WALMSLEY thought it was time they
should hare a full and ample inquiry into this subject.
It was admitted on all hands that the artizins in this
trade were suffering great privations, and he
firmly believed that the manufacturers themselves
NV( uld join most cordially in the inquiry. He thought
it would be dangerous not to grant an inquiry on so
momentous a subject, and he trusted therefore that
her Majesty's Government would not hesitate for one
moment in acceding to the motion of the Honourable
Baronet.

.Mr.,NEWDEGATE supported the motion for the
appointment of a Committee, and deprecated the re-
ference that had been made by the Hon. Member for
Montrose to what had taken place in France, and the
case of the Luddites. He contended that what had
taken place in Prance, clearly showed that the course
adopted in England was right, and that in France

Dr. BOWRING objected to the motion. Expe-
rience had shown the impossibility of atteutpt-
ing to regulate between masters and men.
He thought the motion, if carried, was cal-
culated to raise false hopes among the working
frame-work knitters, and if it did nothing else, he
thought that was sufficient objection to it. He depredepre-
catedholding out to the working classes that their
wages could be raised by means of Acts of Parlia-
ment.

Mr. SLANEY thought that by the means of the
Committee frauds might be put an end to, and
thereby the condition of the working classes im-
proved. In stating this, he begged clearly
to be understood as not for one moment
supposing that the condition of the workino,
classes could be improved with respect to
wages by the passing of Acts of Parliament. He
thought, if no ether good could be effected by the
appointment of the Committee than that of con
vincing the working classes that they were willing to
inquire into their grievances, Parliament would be
amply compensated for appointing the Committee.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said it was not without

severe concern that .he felt it his duty to oppose this
!Lotion. He lamented for the distress under which
the large body of frame-work knitters were labour-
leg, and if be was convinced that this Committee
would be the means of alleviating their distresses he
would be the last man in the House to oppose its
appointment. Inquiries had frequently taken place
before a Committee of the House on the subject of
the distress of the frame-work knitters, and -'he be-
lieved the House had now before it all the materials
that could be collected on the subject ; and such
being the case, he thought the appointment'
of such a Committee as was now proposed would
only have the effect of holding out hopes to the hand-
loom weavers hich never could be realised, that
their condition might be improved by the in-
terference of Parliament between themselves
and their masters. All the evidence that
had been brought forward clearly showed that it
ss °aid be impossible by direct legislation to improve
the condition of the hand-loom weavers.—(Hear.)
-Frame-work knitting was open to all classes of un-
skilled labourers, while women •ttnd children could
always find employment in this description of work,
and he put it to the House whether, under' these
circumstances, it would not be dangerous to hold out
the delusive hope that in a trade like this they could
safely legislate for the regulation of wages ?
—(Wear, hear) The Honourable Gentleman the
Member for Shrewsbury, although he did not
advocate the principle of direct legislation upon
the subject, drew attention to the defects which
he represented as existing in the savings' bank
system, and to certain frauds which prevailed in the
particular trade. For his pia, he had no hesitation
in telling the Hon. Gentleman, that if he introduced
any measure for remedying these defects, it
should have the best consideration of her Majesty's
Government; but, although he regretted that he felt
it was his duty to do so, he was convinced that in the
end it would be found that he had acted for the best
interest of those poor people in resisting the motion
of the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. PACKE regretted to hear the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of
Trade, for it would go far to confirm the feeling of
the humble classes of the midland counties that it
was hopeless for them to look to this House for help.
No less than 100,000 men were employed in the frame-
knitting trade, and he knew of his own know-
ledge that they had long been subject to
great injustice and oppression. It was seldom indeed
that they ever obtain a fair day's wage for a fair day's
work, and it was perfectly ridiculous to tell him, who
lived amongst them, that there were periods of the
year when they were in the receipt of high
tide wages. So far from that being the case,
they had always to struggle most severely
to obtain even a paltry livelihood, and he trusted that
ere long Government would be made to feel the
necessity of taking up the question.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GARDNER said it was absurd to apply ab-
stract principles of political economy to this question,
and he hoped the Government would take heed in
time and see the folly of non-interference.—(Hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP trusted the Hon. Baronet
who had introduced the question would carry it to a
division, and then the country would see who really
were the friends of the working•classes. There
were a good many Members in that House who made
a point of talking largely of their sympathy
tor the working classes, but they took good care not
to do anything practically for their benefit.—(Hear.)
The Corn-law League and those who supported
them, could plead most eloquently about the rights
of landlord and tenant, but when the rights of master
and servant were brought under discussion, they took
good care to pooh pooh i•, and to tell the House and the
country that agitating the rights of the working man
was mere delusion, for their rights and privileges—
nay, their daily bread—was dependent upon and
regulated by the abstract principle of supply and
demand.—(Hear, hear.) Let the House act
honestly with these poor, patient, suffering
people, and if they could not afford them
a legislative remedy, prove it to them by inquiry, and
not refuse to hear their case stated by those whom
they believed to be their friends.—(Cheers.).
Sir H. HALFORD replied, remarking that he
regretted to hear that it was the determination of
Government to resist the inquiry because it
would lead to misapprehension out of doors. He did
not want to interfere with the principle of demand
and supply ; all that lie wanted was, that certain
frauds which prevailed in the fratne-work knitting
trade, and demoralised those who were engaged in it,
should be inquired into, with the view to their
removal, and he hoped that ere long Government
ould be induced to grant the inquiry.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the Committeee 5l
Against it • • B5
Majority
The motion was therefore lost.
SCOTCH SCHOOLMASTERS.

Lfr:COCII RANE then rose for leave to introduce
a 1.3111 to facilitate the removal of schoolmasters in
Scotland:„ At present the removal of those persons,
on account.of immoral or other improper conduct,
could not--tie brought about without the greatest
difficulty, on,.account of the ambiguity of the Act,
the 43d of Geo.. 111. He did not propose to do away
with the jurisdiction of :he Presby ery,but he proposed
when a schoolmaster proved inefficient, or was guilty
of misconduct, that one or more of the heritors
should apply to the Lord Advocate, who should act
AA a grand juror, and investigate the charge ; or he
might remit the case to the Sheriff-Substitute, who
should try it, his deCision being final. He had fully
investigated the subject, and believed that the Bill
would meet the object he had in view.
The LORD ADVOCATE admitted that there
was great diflioulty in• removing an objectionable
schoolmaster, and that the law on the subject required
alteration. As the matter was an important one, he
did not consider he should. discharge his duty if he
threw any impediment in the way of the introduction
of the Bill. He did, not, however, wish it to be un-
derstood that he should give his support to the Bill.
After a few words from Mr. MACKENZIE and Mr.
FORBES,

Mr. HUME inquired if the Government intended
to bring in a Bill on the subjvyt ? l'sTo reply having
been given, he gave notice that he should ask the
question to- morrow.
Leave was then given to bring in • the Bill; it was
read a first time, and ordered to be read a second
time on Monday, the 17th April.
HORSHAM.

In reply to Captain PECH E4L,
The Earl of MARCH intimated that he had given
notice that he should move, to-morrow, that the writ
be issued.

Air. HUME said, in the event Of the Noble Lord
doing so, he should submit that the issuing of the
writ ought to be deferred.
RAILWAY COMMISSIONERS.
Mr. BA NKES gave notice that, on Tuesday next,
he should move for leave to introduce a Bill to repeal
the Act under which the Railway Commissioners were
constituted.

THE SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
Mr. HUME gave notice that he should to morrow
call the attention of the House to the va-
cant office of Sergeatit-at-Arms, and suggest
the propriety of instituting a❑ inquiry with a view
to consider the expediency of separating the office of
housekeeper from that office, with a-view to the better
accommodation of the House. •

The House adjourned at five minutes to Six o'clock.

REFORM OF THE LAW OF LUNACY.—A public
meeting, " for the purpose of promoting the reform of
the law of lunacy," was held at the British Coffee house,
Cocicspur-street, last night. The meeting was called by
the Alleged Lunatic.' Friend Society,and the chair was
taken by B. B. Cubbell, Esq., M.P. Mr. Luke Hansard
proposed, and Mr. Percival seconded, the following reso-
lution, viz.:—" That the present laws of lunacy are ac-
knowledged on all hands to be highly defective, and
contrary to every principle of constitutional freedom
and justice, and that acts of the greatest oppression and
cruelty have been committed in lunatic asylums, in
consequence of the imperfect system in superintending
the same." Several gentlemen addressed the meeting,
and it was resolved to petition Parliament for an in-
quiry into the subject. _ _

Tits ARMY.—.-Desertion is prevalent to a great
extent from the' ranks of the 20th Regiment of Foot, at
present stationed at Kingston, in Canada. On Sunday,
the 27th of February last, twelve men left the garrison
during the night, and made their way across Long
Island, trusting to get over the,main channel of the
Saint Lawrence to the American side, but owing to a
heavy gale from the westward the ice there was broken,
rendering it difficult to cross by :a boat, and impossible
to accomplish on foot. In the attempt four of the de-
serters were drowned, and the remaining eight were cap-
tured and brought back to the barracks. In their com-
pany was an American, said ''to be a sergeant in the
United States army, and some- of the men accuse him of
having enticed them to desert.
DUNDEE TRADE.—Tire uncertain state of affairs
on the continent continuing to exercise a depressing in-
fluence on our markets, we are sorry to be unable to re-
port any improvement either in flax, yarns, or linens.
Now, however, that prices of the former have been driven
so low, buyers seem to evince less reluctance to pur-
chase, especially good flax, of which the stcelc is now
much reduci.d. A vessel from Memel with fresh flax has
arrived at Arbroath ; the quality is variously repre-
sentud, but we believe it is on the whole fair.—Dundee
Advel tiser.

The members of the Provisional Government have
become ten years older during the month they have been
in power. M. L,dcu Rollin, who had a head of fine
black hair, is become perfectly grey. M. Flocon has
been at the point of death. M. Louis Blanc, who had a
fresh juvenile countenance, is no more recognizable.
MM. Lamartine and Gamier Pages spit blood. M.
Crensieux his lost his voice. M. Alarrast seems worn
out with fatigue. In fine, there is only M. Arago, who
appears formed 01 Pyrennisn granite, who supports the
.weight of the Provisional Government, the weight of
two ministerial offices—the direction of the Academy of
Science, and the Observatory. He alone has not
quitted h's post.—Paris Paper.

IMAGINARY CONVERSATION.
BY WALTER SAVAGE LANDOR.
M. THIERS AND M. LAMA
look since hat shy at rue, M. Leteartine,
now you ae e in power, and I am out.
Lamartine—M. Thiers! we neither of us ever were
out of power since we cone to years of discretion,
if indeed the poet and the public man may be said at any
times of their lives to have come to them: for in poetry
imagination loads us astray, in politics ambition.
Thiers—l never was ambitious.
Lamartine.—l always was. The love of fame, in other
words, of approbation, drew me forward not unwillingly.
Reflection comes down to us in the deep recesses where
imagination rests, and higher and more substantial forms
rise-around us and come nearer. The mind, after wan-
dering in distant and in unknown regions, returns home
at last and reposes on the bosom of our country. Her
agitations render her only the more inviting and the
dearer to us. .We love her in her tranquillity, we adore
her in her pangs: Ido not rejoice, nor do I repent, that
the voice of the people has called me to the station I now
hold.
Thiers—lL is an 'elevated and a glorious, but it is also
an uncertain and a dangerous one ; trice my word for it.
Lamartige—Pardon my
„franknese ; I would rather
take your word than your example.
Thiers--My example in NI b Ev; ?
LanAci ti,e—May I without -offence to you speak my
mind at large ?
Thiers-4;peak it unreservedly, as becomes a repub.
lican in all his treehness.
Lamartine—First,then, I should be sorry to grow rich
among the spoliations cif,Ty country. Secondly, I scorn
to countenance the pas'Seene of the vulgar, and more
especially in their madness for. war.
Thiers—We may put method into this madness. Be
sure, M. Lamartinc, that no earthly power can withhold
for a twelvemonth an agitated army of three hundred
thousand men, smarting under past ,disgraCes. We
must, whether we will or no, send forty thousand from
Algiers to Triest, and seventy thousand frotn our
southern departments to the Gulphs of Genoa. and
Spezzia. lam a moderate man; I would leave the duchy
of Austria to its ancient duke ; Bohemia to whoirooever
the nation shall elect as king. Hungary was already
free and independent from the moment that Metternich
in the frenzy of his dotage consented to accept the
tervention of Russia. She rises both against the hungry
and wolfish pack of Russia, and the somnolent and
swinish herd that rubs her into intolerable soreness from
over-gorged Vienna.* Whatsoever was once Poland
must be Poland again. She must extend from the Baltic
to the Black Sea; from Dantzic to Odessa, and inclusive.
Anything short of this will only cause fresh struggles.
Men can never be quiet in the cramp: they will cry out
and kick until the paroxysm is over.;
Lamartine—l am afraid you are too precipitate.
Thiers—There are many good men who are afraid of
hearing or even of thinking the truth. They may lie in
a ditch with their hats over their faces, nevertheless the
light will come in upon them somewhere.
Lamartine—Probably the King of Sardinia will de-
mand our aid against Austria, and insist on the evacua
ation of Modena and Parma: we may then, with policy
and justice, interfere. Why do you smile?
Thiers—l was thinking at the moment that some
laurels grow best on loose soil, M. Lamartine, but nei-
ther that laurel which crowns the warrior, nor that oak
which crowns the saviour of a citizen. It is our duty
not to wait for danger, but to meet it : not to parley
with insolent awl stupid despots, but to bind them hands
and feet with their own indigenous plants.
lame/tine—And yet, M. Thiers, you are a royalist !
?Mgrs—ls any man a royalist when he knows he can
be greater ? I had other means of serving my country,
or (let me speak it frankly) myself. Kings have worn
down their high-heeled shoes by their incessant
strut and swagger. People would have only laughed at
them if they had merely told common lies and practised
only ordinary deceptions. But when the sleights-of-
hand emptied every man's pocket, the whole crowd
became vociferous ; up flew the benches, and the con-
juror took to his heels. At first we were tickled, at last
we were triturate d.
Lamaaine— Not quite into dust, nor into mud, but
only into a state, I trust, in witch, with some new
elements and combinations, we may attain greater
solidity- and consistency. Democracy is always the
work of kings. AThes, which in themselves are sterile,
fertilize the land they are cast on.
Thiers—You remind me of what happened in England
at the commencement of our first revolution. The
beautiful Duchess de Pienno was solicited too amorously
by the Prince of Wales. " Sir," replied she, "it is
Princes like you who make democrats." He never for-
gave her ; indeed he never pardoned any offence, espe-
cially when it came from the intelligent and the
virtuous.
Lamartine—llaving lived all his life among cheats
and swindlers, he would probably have received with
courtesy and amity Louis Philippe; and having broken
his word until there was not enough of it to be broken
again, and having deceived his friends until there was
no friend to deceive, perhaps he would have naturalized
the good Protestant Guizot, and have given him a seat
in tire Cabinet. At the present day there is a
Guizot Administration in Engla::d. The same
reckless expenditure, the same deafness to the popu-
lar rechunations, the same stupid, self-sufficient,
subservient, and secure, majority in Parliament. It is
well for England that in the most vulnerable and unquiet
part of her dominions there is a chief magistrate of con-
summate wisdom, temperate and firm, energetic and
humane. Such a functionary is sadly wanted to preside
over the coureels of Great Britain.
Thiers—Ho is best where he is. The English are
so accustomed to a shuffling trot, that they would grow
impatient at a steady amble. They think that the
roadster must be wanting in spirit and action unless
they see plenty of froth upon the bit.—Examiner.

* It is due to Mr. Laudor (some of whose opinions in
this paper the reader IA ill find not a little at variance
with our own) to state that we had received and printed
this I:onversation before the intelligence of the revolu-
tion in Vienna had reached England.—ED. Ex.