The Sun.
London, England, 1848-03-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, _LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH( 21, 1846.

him a question of some importance to Scotland.
The House, no doubt, was aware that, formerly,
the state of the law was such as to render
it necessary that all professors of Scotch univer-
sities should be members of the Established
Church, but that state of things had been in abeyance
for many years, but of late it had been held necessary
that all professors should be members of the Estab-
lished Church of Scotland. He wished, therefore,
to ask the Noble and Learned Lord whether it was
his intention to re-introduce his _ Bill for putting an
end to this anomaly ?
The LORD ADVOCATE said it was whenever
the state of public business would admit of his
doing so.
REDUCTION OF TAXATION.

Mr. HUME said, a few days ago, when the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government was not in his place, he
brought under the consideration of the House a motion
relative to the reduction of the salaries of public
officers. He wished now to ask the Noble Lord,
with a view of avoiding the necessity of reviving
that motion, whether Government had come to any
determination that the future appointments of all
public officers should be subjected to any revision
or reduction Parliament might think proper to make
in the salaries ?

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had no hesita-
tion in assuring the Hon. Gentleman that any appoint-
ment Government might in future make, provided
they could do so with justice and consistency,
would be subjected to any alteration or
reduction Parliament might think fit to make in the
salaries.—(Loud cheers.)
ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said—§i7,-in rising to
make the motion I am about to put into your
hands, I am sure the House will not require
any argument in its favour on my part, for
the proverbial loyalty and attachment which
exists in the House and the country towards the
Throne convinces me that the House will at once
acquiesce in any motion for congratulating her
Majesty on an event of peculiar interest to her-
self. The strict accordance with the constitution
which her Majesty has always shown in her political
conduct, and the bright example which she has given
to her people by pursuing a virtuous and unblemished
life, will, I am sure, prove a sufficient iniucement to
this House to pass the resolution, and the country to re-
echo its sentiment, and therefore, without further detain-
ing the House, I beg leave to move that an humble
address be presented to her Majesty, congratulating
her Majesty on the birth of a Princess.—(Loud cheers.)
Sir H. PEEL—Sir, on former occasions, while
holding office under the Crown, I have had the
honour of proposing addresses of a similar nature to
that which the Noble Lord has just proposed, and I
have great pleasure in seconding the address which
be has submitted for the consideration of the House.
—(Loud cheers.) I cordially join with him, and I
am sure, in doing so, I express the unanimous feel-
ing of the House—(Cheers)—in wishing a long
and a happy reign to her Majesty, and that her lineal
descendants, he hoped, might long occupy the throne
of these realms.—(Cheers.) Every one in this House,
I am sure, feels, and I think the country sympathises
with the conviction, that while her Majesty has
evinced an earnest zeal to promote the best interests of
her people, and secure to them the rights of the
constitution in a political sense, she has, at the same
time, set them a brilliant example by always pursuing a
virtuous and upright course in domestic life.—(Cheers.)
The address was then agreed to.
WAYS AND MEANS—REPORT.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER
moved the order of the day for receiving the report of
the Committee of Ways and Means.
Viscount DUNCAN inquired if his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to
oppose the motion he had on the paper, for the appoint-
ment of a Committee to inquire into the expenditure
and management of the Woods and Forests, and
othet revenues of the Crown.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re-
plied that he did not intend to assent to the motion,
as he believed the House had ample means of judging
of the way in which the department referred to was
managed.
The SPEAKER having put the motion that the
report be received,
Mr. M'GREGOR then rose to propose the fol-
lowing motion, of which he had given no.ice :
" That in the event of this House agreeing to the re-
imposing of the income-tax for three years, it is just
and expedient to extend to Ireland, during the two
years ending the sth day of April, 1851, the same
rates of income-tax, excise duties, window duties,
and other assessed taxes, which shall be at the same
time levied in Great Britain."

Mr. GOULBURN interrupted the Hon. Member
by stating that the motion could not be made in the
way be proposed it—it was uttorly impossible, accord-
ing to the rules of the House, to impose a tax except
in a Committee of the whole House.—(Hear, hear.)
He begged, therefore, to suggest to him the propriety
of withdrawing his motion. He interrupted him as
believed he would thus be saved the trouble of en-
tering into a long discussion on the subject.
Mr. M'GREGOR acceded to the suggestion, and
withdrew his motion.

Mr. BERNAL then brought up the report.
Mr. HUAIE said, after the distinct manner in
which the House had assented to the imposition of
the tax for another three years, it was not his inten-
tion to offer any further opposition to it ; he begged
merely to suggest that before the Bill was passed, a
Committee should be appointed to consider the best
means of removing some of the anomalies shown to
exist in its former working.

GLIS was understood to agree with
the Hon. Member.
Mr. SLANEY said, as one of those who
voted with her Majesty's Government, he
wished to press upon the Government the
absolute necessity of making some improve-
ment in the way in which the tax was imposed. He
trusted, therefore, her Majesty's Government would
"give ear" to the statement of the Hon. Member
for Montrose, and, after due deliberation, so
improve the measure as to make it acceptable
to the great body of her Majesty's subjects. He
believed the tax to be just in principle, as the rich
were compelled to pay their full share, whilst the
humbler classes perceived clearly that this was so,
and that they were free from it on account of their
position in life. He trusted that nothing would be
left undone to remove the anomalies complained of.
Sir DE LACY EVANS was of the same opinion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he could assure the House that her Majesty's
Government has not been indifferent to the subject,
and that their attention had been turned to the modi-
fication of the income-tax. Ile would not say that in
some of the suggestions which had been made for
that purpose, there was not something plausible
at first sight, but her Majesty's Government
had found that the more the object had been inquired
into the less they felt able to devise any plan in which
the injustice would not be still more gross and apparent
than by the system at present established. All he
could say was, that any plan which might be suggested
would receive his most attentive consideration.
At present he had come to the conclusion that no
propositions had as yet been made which did not,
when examined in detail, appear more objectionable
than that which had invariably been adopted at all
times and in all countries where an income-tax had
existed.—(Hear, hear.)
Dr. BO WRING thought that the Right Hon.
Baronet had not answered the question of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume).
He had stated that no plan had as yet been suggested
which was preferable to the present mode. He (Dr.
Bowring) was, however, of opinion that, unless some
great modifications of the plan were introduced, it
would be impossible to collect the tax without such
an amount of resistance—(Cries of "Oh, oh!")—
as would prove very annoying to the Government.
Ile thought that the request of his Hon. Friend
was a very reasonable one, and one which ought to
be acceded to. Jt would show, at all events, some
desire on the part of the Government to defer to the
wishes of the great majority of the people out of
doors if a Committee were appointed to inquire
whether some modifications could not be introduced.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he did not understand that the Hon. Member
for Montrose had put way question to him upon the
subject; he had •nly given notice of his intention
upon some future day of bringing forward a motion
on the subject.
Mr. COBDEN felt bound to say one word at
least upon a question of matter of fact; he understood
the Right Hon. Baronet, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer to say with considerable emphasis, at the
close of his first remarks, that the income-tax
was levied in this country in the same manner as in
all other countries. Now, a remark had been made
by the Hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. M‘Gregor)
upon a former occasion, which was well founded, to
the effect that in no other country in the world was
there any income-tax at all. There were pro-
perty-taxes levied to a heavy amount in
France and other places—(Hear, hear)—but in no
civilised country in the world was there any instance
of a tax being levied upon property. This was a
fact that should be borne in mind, because the Right
lion. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
stated that the tax was levied in the same mode in
this country as in others.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
stated that he had made his statement upon the
authority of the Hon. Member himself, who had
stated that in South Carolina, in the United States,
for the purposes of the State, an income-tax was
levied upon profits resulting from trades and profes-
sions.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. HORSMAN said that it appeared to him that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was at direct issue
with the public at large on the subject of the impos-
sibility of modifying the inequalities of the income-

tax. He certainly thought that it would be paying
a most judicions deference to the wishes of the public
if the subject were referred to a Committee.

Mr. DPGREGOR concurred with his Right
Hon. Friend:the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the
statement he had made, that there was a
great difficulty with respect to making a
distinction -between different species of income ;
but he thought that some difference ought to be made.
It was not his intention to offer any further factious
opposition to the adoption of the report.
Mr. TREL AWN Y said he had given his vote on
the subject after full consideration, although it had
not met with the approbation of his constituents.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL would not now discuss
the question of the propriety of referring the subject
to a Select Committee, but he felt bound
to say, after what had been stated by his
Hon. Friend the Member for Cockermouth, that the
disapprobation of the public was universal against
the tax as at present proposed, that he felt no doubt
that the approbation of the public to the Hon. Mem-
ber for Cockermouth's proposition would not be
universal.—(hear, hear.) He thought that those
who were to be taxed Vd. instead of 7d. would cry
out most loudly against it.

Mr. S. CRAW FORD thought it his duty, on the
part of hie constituents, to protest against the con-
tinuance of the tax.

The report was then agreed to, and leave was given
to bring in a Bill founded upon it.
Lord DUNCAN then repeated the question he had
asked of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with
respect to the expenses of the Woods and Forests.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the subject was under the consideration
of a Committee, and until they had made their report,
he could give no other answer than he had done.
After a few words from Dr. BOWRING,
•The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
it was useless to overwhelm the Committee with more
subjects than it could conveniently decide upon.
Lord DUNCAN said the subject he proposed to
submit to the Committee was an exceedingly simple
one, but in order to save the time of the House he
would give notice that, on Friday next, on going
into Committee of Supply, he would make a motion
for a Committee on the subject.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee
of Supply; Mr. Bernal in the chair.
NAVY ESTIMATES.

Mr. WARD, in rising to bring under the consi-
deration of the Committee, the naval policy which he
considered was the peculiar province of the Crown and
Parliament to pursue, trusted he should have the indul-
gence of the Committee for a few minutes, while he de-
tailed the number of men that would be necessary
for the service of 1848.49. He could not separate
from this point the whole naval policy of the coun-
try, because in the question of the number of men
to be voted for the year was involved the whole
subject of the navy estimates. He hoped they
would not grudge the means that were necessary
to place the navy in an efficient state. What
some Honourable Members called an extravagant
expenditure, he called a necessary and just one, and
before he concluded he should show that this was
so. He admitted that much of the moneys
voted might have been better spent, if those
entrusted with its expenditure had had more
time to consider how this might be done. If
the service was reduced some thousands it could not
fail to be impaired. The number of marines had been
constantly varying; but so satisfied was the House
of the necessity of keeping up the proper number,
that no division of the House had taken place on the
subject during the last 20 years.—(Bear, hear.)
The number had been always varying, and yet,
although Parliament and the country had always
demurred to this increasing expenditure, yet there
had been no division on the number. He found that
the lowest vote ever taken was for 19,000 men, in
1817. In 1819 that number was raised to 20,000 ;
and in 1823 to 25,000, without any apparent necessity
for the increase, In 1824 it was 29,000; in 1825,
30,000; and from 182 G to 1830 it was 27,000. In
1835 it was 26,000; and in 1836.7, 33,000; in
1837-8, 34,000; in 1840-1, 39,000; and in 1841-2,
43,000, the same as this year. He might perhaps be
told there was always some political cause to be
assigned for the increase being granted without a
division ; such as the war in Syria or China, or that
some disturbance of the peace of Europe was
threatened, and that when peace was restored a re-
duction took place. In 1843-4 the force was 39,000
men, which in 1844-5 was reduced to 36,000 men.
The force of 86,000 men was then taken as the
standard of the proper peace establishment by the Right
lion. Baronet (Sir J. Graham), although it exceeded
by 10,000 men the standard of 1835. A single year's
experience, however, was enough to prove the insuf-
ficiency of his vote, and in 1845.6, having reduced
the force to 36,000 men, the Government increased it
to 40,000 men in a time of profound peace. In 1846
a further addition of 1,500 marines was made, which
was followed by a further increase of 1,500 marines
in the present estimates, making the number of sea-
men and marines included in the present vote. Why
had there been this constant increase in the naval
estimates as proposed by successive Governments ?
There was no abstract love of taxation in the country,
but there had been a feeling that the increase did not
depend upon ourselves ; that one power could not
stand still while others progressed. Of all posi-
tions the most perilous for a country like this
was, that she should have the reputation abroad
of being at once wealthy and weak, that her
commerce should be spreading over every sea,
that her ports should be the depots of the
world's produce, and yet that she should have
no military or internal organisation for her defence.
—(Hear.) He should perhaps be told how free trade
would bind all the nations of the world together.
That might be very well 100 years hence, but where
was the country with which we had such relations at
present as to justify the absence of all power of self-
defence ?—(lronical cheers from the Protectionist
benches.) Where could the Hon. Member for the
IVest Riding (Mr. Cobden) point to a foreign eoun-
try with which we were connected by such intimate
commercial ties as to justify a reduction in the naval
expenditure of this country?—(hear, hear.) they
were told again they must look to the spread of de-
mocratic institutions for the preservation of peace.
But if they looked to the past they found that the
most democratic states had been sometimes the most
ambitious and the most warlike.—(Hear, hear.) The
Republics of Carthage and Rome might vie with the
most despotic Governments in the wars they had
carried cn, and if they looked to later times they
would find the principle called "annexation " in
full force.—(Bear, hear.) They were old enough
to recollect the annexation of Texas ; and the
war between the United States and Mexico
did not inspire him with faith in the morality or
peacefulness of the purest democracies.—(Cheers.)
Man was man, in whatever country he was placed;
and the only safety on which it was prudent for a
nation to rely was upon her own resources for her
self-defence, and not to trust to Utopian theories
about the mutual dependence of nations.—(llear,
hear.) That principle of trusting to herself alone for
her own defence had been the principle adopted by
all the successive Governments of this country, and
it was a good, wholesome, practical principle, worth
a bushel of theories. Lord Hatherton, who was a
member of the Finance Committee of 1817, wrote
the other,day to remind him that when Lord Castle•
reagh was examined before that Committee, and
asked what had been the policy of this country with
regard to the defences, he said that " our policy had
been to keep up a navy equal to any two navies be-
longing to other powers that could he brought against
us." The Finance Committee of 1817 reported upon
this subject :
"Esteeming the naval superiority of this country as
the principle on which its external power, internal safety,
,Ind general prosperity, in the highest degree depend,
your Committee aro of opinion that the sense which they
entertain of the necessity for economy, cannot, with a
duo regard to the interest of the State, be allowed to in-
terfere with the support of such a maritime force as may
be deemed necessary in time of peace—(" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Hume)—nor with the preparations for its
:adequate augmentation in the event of war. And as naval
expenditure' in time of peace is principally connected
with the purchase and preparation of materials for future
exigency, there is no part of the public service in which
an ill-judged temporary economy might bo ultimately
productive of such considerable expense."

That was wise and wholesome advice, but it had re-
ference to a state of the world totally different from
what they saw now. The next great great epoch
connected with the naval expenditure was in 1844,
when the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel)
was in power, whose foreign policy inspired the
Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) with perfect
faith in the preservation of peace. lie believed there
never were two men more desirous of preserving the
peace of the world than the Right lion. Baronet and
Lord Aberdeen. Their measures for securing that
object were- crowned. with perfect success, yet they
Ad opted as the basis of their policy a large increase in
the means of national self-defence. The Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham), the
great naval economist of 1834, concurred in all these
measures, for which he was as much responsible as
for the estimates of 1834, and the force of
forty thousand men was established as the
proper peace establishment of 1845. The Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) also concurred
in a supplementary estimate of 185,0001., which was
passed under the sanction of the Lords of the Tree-
,.ury for preparations connected with the steant navy
for that year. The three individuals to whom he had
referred, men of great sagacity and public experience,
had, in 1844, declared to be necessary every item of
naval expenditure which Honourable Members behind
him (Mr. Ward) now complained of. A large in-
crease of all the items of the naval expenditure took
place during the administration of the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamwortb. The vote fur
men in 1834 was 958,7611.; in 1845 it was