The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-27 00:00:00

Noble and Learned Friend gave them the price of wheat in
Dantzic, and the rates of freight charged for bringing it to this
country.
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Noble Friend, but perhaps he would be saving him a
prices of wheat in Dantzic and the rates of freight are
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The Earl of HARDWICK under these circumstances would
the price of corn in Philadelhphehisivaar Nobletantdi
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He would say, in reference to that euparriouepUro;;ita.inoldrt
consequences
ae letter
Lordshipswri tt
e a this
b3e, werecuonlotrnye,
ing interests, would be most disastrous. even
showedvha saidf
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to
letter from a political economist, with the the manufactur-
ati incisiee
He would quote a
corn:lens to Mr. Seymour, in
only one-fourth,
(The Noble Lord then
which he stated that the quotedAnti-
et
hf e
pernicious effects of such a doctrine.view of showing the
aware that the reduction of rents would not
were well
cor-
responding benefits, but the reverse, uponnot produce any
manufac' urieg classes.) That, continuedthte the agricultural or
the opinion of a great political economist,
and
iutble Lord, was
which he perfectly concurred, that upon the worlvsLasone in
gac asses
a reduction in rents would necessarily entail
portionate fall in the value of their indusptrrey.
It was said that dependence on foreign countries
for their supplies was of no importance. His Noble Friend
near him ( Lord Stanley) had cut the ground from under him
so completely on this point that nothing was left to him to add
to it. He must say, however, that he had still some confi-
dence in the wisdom of their ancestors; and though their opi-
nion might not be considered of much value in these days, he
must say that the independence of this country from foreign
influence and foreign assistance formed a most important fea-
ture in every statesman's consideration. This was the case
with regard to corn, as well as every other matter. In the set-
tlement of the great question relative to the Pretender, in
the last century it was thought right to carry out this prin-
ciple as far as possible, and to put no monarch on the throne
who belonged to any foreign or Popish country. In the sen-
tence pronounced at that time by Lord Hardwick on Lord
Lovat, that opinion was very strongly expressed. He alluded
to those things merely for the purpose of showing the
anxiety felt by their ancestors with regard to keep-
ing this country independent of foreign influence.
It seemed to him that the question of dependence on for eigners
was, of all others, the most important in the discussion on this
measure. He would ask their Lordships to consider the great
cost and expense to which this country had been subjected in
consequence of the interference of foreign powers. lie would
entreat their Lordships to take into consideration the inter-
ference of Hanover, forinstance ; and when he spoke of Han-
over, he believed that no greater political blessing had been con-
ferred on this country by that Illustrious Princess that now
reigned over us, than that through her instrumentality the king-
dom of Hanover had been severed from us. He mentioned
Hanover for the purpose of showing that this country had always
suffered from the interference of foreign powers with the affairs
of this country. In 1688 we had no rational debt. In 1697
we had a debt of 21,500,000/. In 1714 the debt wa534,000,0001.
In 1736 it was 50,000,0001. In 1748 we had a debt of 78,000,0001.
In 1756, the commencement of the seven years' war, it was
75,000,0001. In 1763 we bad a war, and the debt amounted
to 193,000,000/. From 1777 to 1815 it increased to
828,000,000/. In consequence of the war into which we were
drawn by our connexion with llanover, the debt was raised
from 75,000,000/. to 139,000,000/. The national debt had
been created by continental wars and continental interfe-
rence. And was the condition of this country altered since
the period when the debt was created? He contended that
the whole of the condition of England was totally changed.
He had now done. He believed he had touched upon every
part of the subject which was of any importance, and he should
be sorry to be the instrument of unnecessarily protracting this
debate, but he must be permitted to conclude the observations
which he had to make in the same way as other Noble Lords
who had taken part in this debate—that was
by calling their Lordships' attention to the great humility of the
state and position of their Lordships' House under the existing
circumstances of the country. He would say that their Lord-
ships were now placed in a very curious and important position
in reference to this question. It was pet fectly notorious, and
he would repeat it over and over again, that the present Par-
liament was assembled under the Government of the Noble
Lords opposite, upon a special and particular question. It had
been returned for the purpose of protecting the agricultural
interests of this country. He for his own part had given his
most hearty support to the Conservative Government, and he
was prepared to vindicate the character of himself, and those
with whom he had acted. It was understood and believed that
no measure would be brought forward by tne present Govern-
ment which would have for its object the alteration of the
present system of protection to agriculture. Sir Robert Peel,
on the first of January, 1840, used these words—" Agriculture
is improved since 1834—d0 you take credit for the improve-
ment? It is owing to your fostering hand, and to the manly
and decided tone on the corn-laws." Sir Robert Peel said
that when addressing those gentlemen who acted with his
Noble Friend opposite. He said in the same speech—" I did
previously, and I repeat it, that I now consider a liberal pro-
tection to domestic legislature indispensable." Now those
were the speeches which Sir Robert Peel did not contemplate
would be quoted against him in so brief a period. Sir Robert
Peel a few years ago had said that he considered protection
necessary to the preservation of the interests of the country at
large as well as of those engaged in agriculture. That Right
Hon. Gentleman had said, at the commencement of this ses-
sion, that it would not be prudent to appeal to the country
until the great question of Ireland was set at rest—(No, no)—
and he called upon their Lordships to compel the Government
to appeal to the country.—(Cheers). He had no hesitation in
saying that it became the imperative duty of their Lordships'
House to let this question go to the people of England
fPr the purpose of deciding whether they were to have
this new system palmed upon the country.—(Hear, hear.)
It became their Lordships' duty to exercise the power which
they possessed for protecting the interests of the poor people of
this country who would be the most affected by the changes
which were proposed to take place. It would be most im-
portant for their Lordships to preserve the good opinion of the
people of this country in their Lordships' House, and that they
should dismiss this measure upon the second reading, for the
purpose of permitting the people of this country to express their
opinion upon it.—(Cheers.) He could assure their Lordships
as an humble individual of that House, that in his opinion, the
only manner in which he could perform his public duty would
be by voting against the second reading:of this Bill.--( The
Noble Lord concluded amid loud cries of " Adjourn," from all
parts of the House.)
Lord BROUGHAM rose to explain—He said, your Lord-
ships will certainly allow me an explanation. lam quite aware
that nothing can be more wearisome to your Lordships than
explanations generally are. I can assure you, however, that
this shall be a short one. Nothing could be more ridiculous
than for me to be ashamed of having changed my opinions,
with reference to the sliding-scale, during a period of 19 years.
I wish just to state that I thought there was something ominous
in my much esteemed Friend, bearing such an authoritative
part, as though he were stalking the quarter deck, and I were
under his command, or perhaps I must rather say, treating me ,
as though I were an enemy under his guns.—( Laughter.) But
when the Noble Lord b Tan to read, what was it that he read ?
It was that I was interrupted in what I was going to say, and
that I said nothing.—( Laughter.) I was curious enough to
inquire as to what this interruption arose from, and looked ac-
cordingly in these documents ( Hansard). The debate to which
the Noble Lord referred me, was a debate of the 21st of
March, 1827. My much-esteemed Friend, Lord Althorp, gave
his support to the proposition of Mr. Canning, and said that
it was a measure which, so far from producing mischievous re-
sults, would produce great and lasting benefits to the country,
both as regarded its commerce, its trade, and its agriculture.
He (Lord Althorp) then proceeded to defend the proposed
measure, and considered it as an improvement on the measure
of 1815, and then proceeded to say, that a more
general arrangement upon a higher and more per-
manent footing would be desirable for the nation.
" You must," said he, " see the necessity of placing the corn-
laws upon a more permanent footing." Some persons may
think that Lord Althorp referred at the time to an alteration
in the then existing sliding-scale,but I happen to know that his
opinion was, that a more enlarged measure was desired ; and
here I must say to your Lordships, that these reports are not so
full and aceu'ate as the reports now are. The nonsense and
ridicule which is here printed, some of it my own, is
scarcely conceivable. In several instances the word
not" is kept out, and in another case the word " not " is
inserted where it shonld not be. My Noble Friend Lord
Wilton, on that occasion, rose to express his approbation of
the measure then before the Committee, without considering
it perfect in its then present shape, or that it could be made
better by inserting some amendments in Committee. This is
quite consistent with the present conduct of my Noble Lords
in this House, who might say, We would, in fact, rather not
have the Bill, but we may, perhaps, introduce some amend-
ments in Committee. In reference to this proposition itself,
I differed from some Hon. Gentlemen who had gone
before me. These were agricultural Members. There
were Lord Western, Colonel Wood, Mr. Portman, and
others. Upon that occasion I said—now these are my words:—
" Although I would not now pledge myself
to any opinion
either of approval or disapproval, still there was one observation
which I wished to make for the purpose of administering some
slight comfort to those Honourable Gentlemen (ag-
ricultural Members) who had upon all occasions
shown themselves at all times ready to take alarm
at anything which they considered innovation." Then
came the debate of March 9, and the whole of the
argument was in favour of free trade, and I said (continued the
Noble arid Learned Lord, reading from Hansard) that what-
ever were my sentiments concerning free trade, I should
confine them to my own bosom, in order to
escape the hostility of those who were opposed
to its principle. Now was that an argument
against
the principle of free trade ?—(Hear, hear.) And it was not
until I went farther in my advocacy of the ad vantages to be
derived from free trade that I was interrupted by the coughing
of which the reporter speaks. It was not without some die
culties that I afterwards obtained a hearing, and I then ex-
pressed my hearty concurrence in the sliding-scale as a step in
the right direction, and being founded on the principle of cm.'
mercial reform, for the Government had recently entered then
upon an advocacy of the principles of free trade.—(Hear,
hear.) And now what becomes of the Noble Lord's state-
ment?—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of WICKLOW and Earl GREY rose at the same
time.

The Earl of WICKLOW moved the adjournmeat of the
debate to Thursday next.
Earl GREY moved the simple adjournment of the debate.
A dispute here arose as to the precedency of the motion.
The Earl of WICKLOW said he would persevere in his
motion, and would take the sense of the House upon the point.
Lord BROUGHAM said, I must move an amendment.
The House, on this important matter, ought to sit on Wednes-
day. I will make this proposition, however, that the debate be
concluded on Thursday. What will prevent us from sitting up
till six o'clock in the morning.
The Earl of WICKLOW said that he did not sae anything
to prevent their concluding the debate on Thursday night, or
rather on Friday morning.
Earl GREY said he believed that their practice was first to
move that a debate be adjourned, and then to ascertain to what
day it was to be adjourned. But considering the great import-
ance of this debate, and the anxiety with which the
result of it was looked forward to by the country,
he did think it would not be fitting to let the country
have it to say that this House preferred amusement,
and a mere amusement, (for it was nothing more) to
the general interests of the country. It had been said, that it
was not usual for the House to sit on Wednesday ; but let him
remind the House that that was a practice of very late date,
and that in case of an adjourned debate, Wednesday was not
regarded, as in the ease of the Maynooth Grant Debate, but to
go on with the discussion de die in diem, until it had determined.
He aQked would it be fitting to adjourn this debatef
for mere
amusement?—(Cries of "Oh, oh. J') Yes,
be would
say, were
to was amusement, and nothing sore. But if debatethis
to be adjourned to Thursday, and not end on that d ay, then it
should be adjourned over the Whitsuntide holidays.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE understood that the
reason his Noble Friend (Earl Grey)ihad moved the adjourn-
ment, was, because lie wished to be Grey),
n the
He owl noi, ,see why they
possession of the
House on resuming the debate. c
should not meet on Friday, after having attended the divine
- service. - -