The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-31 00:00:00

TILE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 31, 1846

of the Legislature by so large a majority, and that it should be
roe' ley as large a majority as could be olstaieett fot it With
the consent of the Hou-e, thsreforee ha should move for the
firs reading of this Bill. He did this with a perfect conviction
chat the Hon. Member for Limerick might he correct in his
assertion, that in the present state of parties in that House,
her Majesty's Government might be left in a small minority.
But so long as they continued servants of the Crown, and so
long as they continued in office, there was but one course
which they could consent to pursue. They might give place
to that minority, but they had, whilst they retained the
power, a paramount duty to perform in providing fur the
public security. If it should be the opinion of that House that
they should continue the public servants of the Crown, it was
their duty to express their impression of the course which her
Majesty's Government might take. While, then, they fully
conceived the necessity of carrying the Corn Bill as early as
possible, they at the same time thought it necessary to avow
their concurrence in the support of the Irish Bill. He felt it
necessary 'o press on the House that his sincerity on this ques-
tion was unfeigned, and he was satisfied that the House would
consider that it was for the interests of Ireland that the discus-
sion on, and the first reading of, this Bill should no longer be
delayed. The Right Honourable Baronet, who objected
to his motion, regarded it only as a consideration of policy,
on which it was unnecessary to alter the usual course
of this House. But the Honourable Member for
Limerick had threatened a course of opposition against any
infringement of the rules of the House on this measure.
It would be very mischievous if any delay took place in re-
gard to this measure. He was satisfied it was for the public
good to persevere in bringing forward this measure, and he
should be unworthy of the cosfidence of the Members of that
House if he thought of entertaining such a threat. Those
Members of the House who, as individuals, opposed the pro-
gressing of this measure, mu.t be aware that the responsibility
would rest with them ; but he thought the responsibility would
rest with her Majesty's Ministers to do their duty by pressing
this measure on the attention of the House by every means in
their power, and by such facts and reasoning as they felt it ne-
cessary to adduce on the present occasion. It was necessary to
inform the House of everything which would influence their
decision on this measure, and that any indefinite postponement
on the part of her Majesty's Government on a Bill so materi-
ally affecting Ireland would have a most prejudicial effect. He
had told them the exact position of the case. He was aware
of the position in which her Majesty's Government were
placed. They were sincere in their determination to use every
effort to obtain a decision on the Corn Bill at the earliest period,
but, on the other hand, they were sincere in their proceedings
in regard to this measure. He had stated his views to the
House, and it was for them to determine what course they
should adopt ; but his own judgment was unshaken, that a re-
fusal to entertain the proposal of Government would be in-
jurious to the interests of the country.
Mr. F. SHAW rose, for the purpose of offering a
few observations on the measure. Looking at the present
lamentable insecurity of life, and property, and person in Ire-
land, if her Majesty's Ministers brought forward a measure
which they deemed calculated for the protection of life, he
should not feel justified in taking upon himself the resporisi•
bility of opposing it; but he was not particularly sanguine of
,he success of the present measure, as the course pursued by
the Government was no great earnest of their sincerity.—
(Cheers.) The Hon. Baronet (Sir W. Somerville) stated
that, though the House met on the 22d of January, yet it was
near a month before the measure was introduced into the Hawse
of Lords. Now, in the case of 1833, referred to by the Right
Hon. Secretary for the Home Department, the House met on
the 29th of January, and the measure was passed the Lords by
the 22d of February following.—(Hear, hear.) Now for the
manner in which the present Bill had been conducted through
the Lords. He should say that it came to the Commons not
the same Bill at all that it was.—( Hear, hear.) Nothing but
a great necessity could justify any extraordinary infringement
of a constitutional measure. If such existed, then the Bill
should be adequate to such necessity ; and, in his opinion, the
Government should not seek for more than they required, nor,
at the same time, should they be content with less.—( Hear.)
He believed the original Bill was totally altered—indeed, he
might say, exchanged for another ; and he also believed that
the Government did not possess sufficient moral weight with
the Irish party at that side of the House to give the measure
effect.—( Protectionist cheers.) He (Mr. Shaw) believed all
the Irish Members would oppose it.—(Loud cheers from
the Opposition benches.) He observed, on the night of the last
great division in that House, that not more than three or four
Irish independent Members voted with Ministers ; and he sap-
posed they would not have even that number on the present
occasion.—(Cheers and laughter.) He (Mr. Shaw) should
state that if the Government had from the first administered
the law with firmness and temper, the existing law
would be sufficient.—( Cheers from Irish Members on
the Opposition benches ) lie did not think they had done
so from the commencement of the monster meetings and agita-
tion to the present day. On the contrary, they showed a
spirit of co nprouaise, a spurious spirit of conciliation—a passing
by of their best men from unworthy fears, and a tampering
with the inferior class on the other side, from equally unworthy
hopes.—( Opposition cheers.) Yes, they had traded on the
generosity of their friends, and on the meanness of their oppo-
nents.—( Cheers and counter cheers.) Under these circum-
stances they were without a party to give them support in Ire-
land. He did not blame the local and executive Government
of that country, because no independence of action was left
them, they being intrusted and directed imperatively by
the Ministry at this side of the Channel.—( Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State, would say
that his opposition to her Majesty's Government was owing to
disappointment, in not being appointed Chief Secretary for Ire-
land. Now, if the House would allow him a few minutes—
(Cheers)—if the House would indulge him for a short time,
he would reply to that most unwarrantable attack on him.—
(Cheers.) He would have no special pleading—no quibbling
on words.—( Cries of " Order," and " Oh, oh.")
The SPEAKER hoped that the Hon. Gentleman dis-
tinctly unders'ood that he could not, without the permission of
the House, allude to a former debate that had taken place in
that House.
Mr. SHAW was aware that he could not do so without the
indulgence of the House, but he submitted that this was an
occasion when the House should concede to him that privilege.
—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) He did not wish any quarrel
about words, but if the attack of the Right Hon. Baronet
meant any thing, it meant that he (Mr. Shaw) wished to job
the office which he held as Recorder of the City of Dublin
for the Chief Secretaryship of Ireland. That was the marrow
of the charge. lie would not quarrel about words: he would
give the widest latitude to his observations. With regard to
the Recordership of Dublin, when the Right Hon. Baronet
was settled in office in 1842, he (Mr. Shaw) was in
constant communication with him, and he submitted
at that timo a proposition to the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman that the office required regulation ;
and if his suggestions with respect to the local and judicial
officers had been adopted, there would have been a saving to
the country of 3,000/. per annum.—( Hear, hear.) But he
admitted fully that the office would have been madis more in-
dependent and comfortable than it was at present. But he
did not do that as a humble supplicant for favour.—( Hear,
hear.) Ile felt the difference between the Right. Honourable
Baronet, the Minister of the Crown, and an humble individual
like myself, but still he conferred with him upon this and all
other measures in a tone of perfect independence. He ad-
mitted that he did confer with the Right lion. Baronet at the
head of her Majesty's Government on the occasion alluded to.
He conferred also with the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary
of State for the Home Department, but he did not care if he
published upon every market-cross in England everything he
had ever said during those conferences.—( Hear, hear.) He
hail conferred also with Sir Thomas Fremantle, and the other
Members of the Government, and the result was this—they
said that considering that the judicial office which he now oc-
cupied was now in the hands of the Crown, and lee (Mr.
Shaw), as a Member of the House of Commons, had better be
excluded from the House, as had been the case with Dr. Lush-
ington and all the Masters of Chancery. He never remonstrated
against their proposition, he never complained ; it never gave
him the slightest annoyance. But with respect to office, he
had never in his life ventured to ask for the office of Chief
Secretary for Ireland; and if he had, he felt that it would be
unworthy for a Minister of the Crown, and unbecoming the
ordinary dealing between gentlemen, that sech communications
should be divulged for the purpose of producing a temporary
effect to save the ends of a particular party, and he thought that
the individual who would impute such unworthy proceedings
was void of generosity ; but what would they say or think of the
minister or man, when he declared that upon his word there
was riot one word of truth in the charge that had been male
against him. He would now make his appeal to the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, for the
purpose of clearing himself from the charges levelled against
him. The history of his communication with Government was
this—when the Right lion. Baronet had returned from abroad
in the year 1834, and resumed the reins of Government, he
asked him (Mr. Shaw) to accept office, but he declined, for the
simple reason that he was the representative for the University
of Dublin, and that he could not accept any judicial
office which should compel him to give up his
seat in the House. For many years he was in
the habit. of almost daily communicating with the Right Hon.
Baronet, and he co-operated with him under very trying cir-
cumstances, and in some painful difficulties, of which he (Mr.
Shaw) believed he was not aware; and now, with confidence,
he would ask if ever he had been actuated by selfish or personal
motives ? But be that as it might, he (Mr. Shaw) solemnly
averred this, that from the conversation he had referred to as
having taken place in the year 1834, up to the present mo-
ment, he never did apply to the Government for any office
whatsoever. He never contemplated the office of Irish Se-
cretary, nor any other under the sun, except the office which
he now held, which was enough for him to preserve his in-
dependency. It was strange that the Right Hon. Gentleman had
not before alluded to this subject. He allowed three days
to elapse, and then came down to this House to
open this adjourned debate, at a late hour of
the night, premeditatedly to fix a charge against
him (Mr. Shaw) which had not the slightest foundation
in truth. It was a low vulgarism, and a mere talk of local
newspaper. He challenged him to produce a scintilla, or the
slightest tittle of evidence to prove the charge. The Right
Hon. Baronet had also said, that seeing the Government about
to fall, he (Mr. Shaw) sitting behind him, had thought proper
to kick them. But if he meant that they, because they sat
behind the Government, were to support the Government
of the Right Hon. Baronet, they were greatly mistaken. The
Government were fallen ; yes, he lamented to say, they were
fallen both in power and in character. He believed the Right
Hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department was the evil
genius of the Government, and fully realised the prophecy that
was made some years since, that no Cabinet of which the Right
Hon. Baronet was a member would last long in England. He
(Mr. Shaw) felt no resentment against her Majesty's Minis-
ters. He felt the greatest respect and esteem for the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, and only re-
gretted that he had fallen into the hands of the Right Hon.
Secretary of State. The opinion he had of that Right Hon.
Baronet he could not express in language which would be cor-
rect in the ears of the House, and it would therefore be the
better plan for him to refrain of giving any opinion of his cha-
racter. ( The Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud cries of
Order, order.")
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said the Learned Recorder of
Dublin had complained of the manner in which he had alluded
to him on a former occasion. There were two charges of which
he had been accused of having brought against him. He ( sir
James Graham) bad no objection to make any explanation.
The allusion which he had first made with respect to the Irish
Secretaryship, was made prospectively with reference to the
formation of a protection Government. With reference to the
second charge, the House would recollect that, in the course
of the last Session, he had stated that he had never been his
(Sir James Graham's) friend—that he had only a political and
parliamentary acquaintance with him ; and he drew a distine-
lion between him and the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head
of the Government. No confidential communication bad ever
taken place between them. He was perfectly justified in act-
ing as he had done, with respect to the transactions which had
taken place within three months of his acceptance of office.
An application was made to him, that the office of Recorder of
Dublin should be endowed with a retiring pension of 2,0001.
a-year. He returned an answer that he could not be a party to
any such agreement, and if the Right Hon. Gentleman referred
to the Session of 1842, he found in the letter stated, why he
could not agree to that proposition. He therefore considered,
that being a public matter, he was fully justified in reverting
to it.
Sir BENJAMIN' HALL made a few observations, 'which
were quite inaudible in the gallery, in consequence of the

noise.

Air. O'CONNELL would oppose the motion of tite
Right Honourable Gentleman. He was actually ealling
upon the House to trample upon one of its own
teasional orders, That sessional order bad Imn made for

the benefit of the public, in order that they might not be
taken by sudden surprise. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
talked of the moral effect on Ireland by the majority of that
House. Did he not think that the Irish people would be much
more affected by the suspension of their orders than by a ma-
jority of the House ? They were accustomed to hear of majo-
rities of that House on measures connected with their own in-

tercets. He hoped that the motion would not be persevered
in; he would say that no advantage would be gained by pressing
this irregular motion.
Mr. CALEB POWELL believed that the real opinion of
the people of England was that the Corn Bill should take pre-
cedence of any other measure. lie should like to ask the Noble
Lord the Momber for Lynn, what was the opinion of his
party connected with this matter?
Lord GEORGE BEN TINCK had no objection to state the
feelings of the party with whom he was connected. He would
only say that if the day should come when his party should be-
come responsible for the government of Ireland, protection
would never be extended to the broad day murderer or the
midnight assassin. Then protection would be given to the poor
and honest man in discharge of his lawful duties and proper avo-
cation. W hen he looked at the statements made bya Minister ofthe
Crown in the other Hoase, and when he saw that in ten
counties offences against the person, offences against the pro-
perty, and offences against the public peace, amounted to
4,782, he should state that he concurred with the Marquis
of Clanricarde, in the necessity for pressing on the present
measure.—( Hear.) He also concurred with the Marquis of
Lansdowne, in thinking that a measure for the protection of
life should be the precursor of every measure of benefit. lie
concurred with that Noble Lord, that it was of no use to pro-
pose measures of improvement so long as no man was suffered
to pursue the occupation of his industry without being assailed
by the hand of the midnight assassin and noon-day murderer.
—( Hear, hear,) For these reasons it was the intention of
Hun. Members with whom he acted to give their hearty and
honest support to the measure of her Majesty's Ministers. The
Right lion. the First Lard of the Treasury had told the
House that the Bill was one for the suppression of assassina-
tion; and he ( Lord G. Bentinck) believed, that the blood of
every murdered creature, and of every creature that would be
murdered, would rest on the heads of her Majesty's Ministers,
did they assent to further delay.—(Loud cries of " No, no,"
from the Opposition benches.) What was the state of things
existing in Ireland ? Why, it was not alone those who had
given offence that were assassinated, but also pregnant women
were shot from behind hedges.— (Cries of " Oh, oh.") He
repeated the statement.—(Cries of "Name, name.") Yes,
he would name. There was the instance of Fanny M'Errell,
the wife of a woodranger, shot for no other offence than that
her husband was supposed to be over active in arresting tres-
passers upon the estate of his master.—(Cheers from the Mi-
nisterial benches, with cries of "Where ?" from the Opposition )
He could name the place—it was in the county of Tyrone.
The unfortunate woman lingered for a few days, mitcarrled in
child-birth, and then died of her wounds.—( Renewed Minis-
terial cries of " Hear, hear.") Was that a state of things to
be endured?—( Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial
party.) But was that a solitary instance? How many days
ago was it since Sir David Roche had been shot at, for no
other crime than that of refusing one tenant to eject the widow
of that tenant's brother, while yet her husband's remains were
lying in the House nut quite cold ?—( Hear, hear.) Nor was
that all, for the state of Ireland appeared to be that no man or
aged lady could go to church without risk of being shot at.—
( Oh, oh.) Yes, there was the case of Mrs. Bennett, an aged
lady of eighty, who was stopped on her way to church by two
cowardly ruffians, one armed with a wattle and the other with
a pistol, which was twice snapped in her face, and that be-
cause she refused to turn off two faithful servants, one of whom
had been shot at and wounded despsrately on a former occasion.
Had they not the statement of Lord Farnham, made in the
other House of Parliament, to show that Mr. Bell Boothe,while
coming from church with his two children, was murdered in
the broad day, in the presence of hundreds, yet the murderers
were suffered to escape?—(Hear.) They were told that the
murderers were still in the country ; the houses they visited
were well known, yet no person dared to arrest them.—
( Hear, hear.) Then there was the last account of the 7th of
the present month, where they were shown how Mr. Ryan, his
wife, ten children, and five servants, while on their knees at
prayer, had a loaded blunderbuss discharged into the room, the
assassin thinking that the best opportunity of making the shot
more effective?—( Hear, hear.) Were they then to be told
that, when they supported Ministers in putting down such an
infamous system, they were acting from factious or
party motives ?—(" No, no," from the Ministerial side.) He
should say, that for himself, as also for the lion. Gentlemen
who acted with him, they were determined that liberty and
freedom should not be mockeries, but that every man should
enjoy them, unawed by the vengeance of the midnight assassin
and the broad day murderer.—( Hear.)
Mr. C. POWELL said he had been informed that the
minutes of a conversation between the Noble Lord who had
just sat down and an accredited Government agent was in the
possession of that Noble Lord, and he merely wished to know
if it was his intention to produce it?—( Cries of " Order.")
Lord G. BENTINCK, in reply, stated that his letter was
in the hands of Ministers, and he had no objection to its pro-
duction.—( Hear, hear. )
Sir G. GREY hoped the House would not he led into a
premature discussion on the question to the prejudice of the
great and important measure (the Corn Bill) previously before
their House.--( Hear, hear.) Doubtless the time would conic
when the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite would have to state
the reasons that induced them to bring in such a measure, and
also when the Hon. Members at large should decide whether or
not the measure met the remedy which it proposed to redress.
He was of opinion that the question put by way of amendment—
whether the Corn Bill should have precedence of the Coercion
Bill—was that on which they were called upon to decide.
And for his own part he was prepared to press for a divison on
the matter, as he was decidedly of opinion that the Corn Bill
should have precedence.—( Hear, hear.) He assured the
House that in adopting that course he did not do so with a view
to obstruct the measures of the Ministry ; but, finding a Bill, the
debate on which had exceeded the time occupied in
debate by all others, then likely to be postponed, though within
a stage or so of its final settlement, he could not act otherwise
than in opposing that postponement, remembering the vast
number, agricultural, manufacturing, and mercantile, who
were anxious to have a final decision pronounced by Parliament
on the question introduced by its leaders.---( Hear, hear.)
Did they postpone the measure at present, it could not be re-
sumed till after Easter, when it would come on in the shape of
a new question, and be again debated at increased length.
Under these circumstances, then, and looking to the great.
importance of putting an end to the uncertainty that existed,
and the stagnation and paralysation under which trade and
commerce laboured, because of the indecision of that House, he
(Sir G. Grey) would feel himself compelled to support the
amendment proposed by his Hon. Friend, to the effect that the
Corn Bill should take precedence of all other measures.—
( Hear, hear. )
Mr. H. GRAI'TAN said that, in giving his support to
the amendment of his Hon. Friend, he would at the same time
do everything in his power to put down the spirit of outrage
and insubordination that existed in some parts of Ireland. He
would do so, not alone as he was a Member of that House, but
as he was a resident country gentleman in Ireland; and not
merely as landlord, hut also as a protsctor of the tenant, the
labourer, and the peasant. At the same time, he was not
going to censure her Majesty's Ministers for their tardiness in
introducing the measure, though he should say that such mea-
sures had been found useless daring a period that ex-
tended from 1810 to 1846.—( Hear, hear.) Knowing that
the measure would fail, and feeling that another and a diffe-
rent one was needed, he should give it his decided opposition.
—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
Ministry took care, in October last, to provide food for the
people, and, at the same time, he might have provided also for
the protection of life and property. He said that to show that,
even should the Bill be delayed, there existed powers to enable
the authorities to put down these outrages, without the inter-
vention of that libellous Bill.—( Hear, hear.) The sherriff
had the command of the entire posse in every county in Ire-
land ; and if they, aided by the gentry of the county who were
resident, and not absentees, aided that officer in the repression
of crime, there would, in his opinion, soon be an end of all
disturbance. • But when gentlemen absented themselves, alum.
doned their duty, and rendered themselves unpopular
by such conduct, they then came forward and united in a cry
for the proclamation of a district, where nothing save their
own conduct made them unpopular.—( Hear, hear.) Let the
gentlemen of Ireland but do their duty, which they did not
do, and there would be an end of all disturbance. It was idle
for them to look for power, and police, and military, to pro-
tect them from the ebullitions of an unpopularity which they
brought on themselves. Moreover, he would not stigmatise
his country by voting for the enactment of a measure which
branded thirty-two counties with infamy, when only five or six
were affected by the mania.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT (whose opening observations were in-
audible in the gallery) was understood to say, that though he
fully agreed in the paramount importance of the corn measure,
still, at the same time, he should say, that no man who had
watched the state of society in Ireland could entertain
a doubt of the necessity that existed for. instantly press-
ing, on the measure introduced by the Ministry for
the better protection of life in Ireland.—(Hear, hear).
The Noble Lord made a statement with regard to the state of
crime in Ireland, and if the House disbeaeved the truth of the
statements it should go into a discussion upon them, and say
whether they were or were not tree. He must say, looking at
the statements that were made elsewhere, that nothing was so
horrible as the state of social disquietude in Ireland. Nothing
was so complete as the abrogation of legal authority in some
parts ; and was it possible for Ministers to allow other mea-
sures, of whatever great importance they might be, to interfere
and not to postpone them until a decision was taken
upon the principle of the measure which proposed to arrest
this state of things in Ireland. There was a feeling in
that House, that this measure was not required, or that other
measures should precede it, so as to more certainly interfere
with the commission of crime. He trusted that the House
would not confirm the motion of his Hon. Friend. It was not
true that Government had attempted to suspend, or give the
right of suspending, the order of the day with a view to take an
unfair advantage. The Right Hon. Baronet himself, said that
it was a most difficult case, and the course he proposed to take
was the most legal and the most ordinary course that could be
proposed. He did not attempt to take the House by surprise ;
he merely proposed that the orders of the day should be post-
poned by the consent of the House, after having been read, and
that the discussion on this question should be taken if
the Hoagie was w illing to accede to the proposition. The course
the Hon. Gentleman had taken was a very unusual one. He
trusted that the House would refuse to sanction the motion of
Isis Hon. Friend ; and without in the least degree undervaluing
or underrating the importance of the measure before the
House, he trusted they would see the necessity of passing the
measure which proposed to give security to life and property
in Ireland ; and those persons who could be attacked by the
Bill had a right to demand from that House that the subject
should be taken into their earliest consideration.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—With regard to the general
question of the precedence of the Hon. Member's motion, or
of the orders of the day for the Importation of Corn,
I should be satisfied to rest it on the state-
ment made by the Honourable Member for Devon,
but there are one or two circumstances which have
occurred in this debate, of which I feel myself compelled to
take notice before going to a division on the subject. I will
not interfere, one way or the other, with the charge made by
my Hon. Friend, the Member for Lynn ; or the defence made
by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, with regard to the delay
said to have occurred in bringing forward this Bill. I trust
that my Hon. Friend, who disclaims the name of a leader,
and yet does attempt to speak the sentiments of tho majority
of this House on frequent occasions, will not do so rash a
thing as to make any accusation, whether against the party
in possession of power or the party which has long differed
from the opinions of her Majesty's Ministers, or to expect that
this question will pass off without some great opposition. 'With
regard to the question before the House, I must say that
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the
Home Department and the Right Hon. Gentleman who has
last spoken have placed it on a different ground from that on
which it ought to be placed. The other evening, he
was saying that he wished the principle of this Bill to be af-
firmed by the House, considering the moral effect it would
have on parties in Ireland. Sir, I cannot consider the ques-
tion before the House, as my Right Hon. Friend justly placed
it, as a motion for any unusual purpose. It was to prevent
the time of the House being occupied; and to affirm that the
more convenient course that the House could pursue for the
sake of the public is to proceed with the discussion of a Bill which
has been long under the consideration of the House, and to post-
pone until a future time a subject which has not been under con-
sideration. My Right Hon. Friend is justified in saying
that the case would be altered if Government said that they
wished to advance this Bill through several stages for the im-
mediate protection of life in Ireland, but they say that they

will resume the discussion on the corn question, and that the
second reading of the Protection to Life and Property in Ire-
land Bill shall not take place for some weeks hence—until after
the Corn Bill, the Customs' Bill, and the Poor's Removal Bill
have had the consideration of this House. I ask, what can
be the moral effect of taking the first reading of a Bill ? I ask,
Whether the Irish will commit less outrages—whether the
murderer will be deterred by knowing that a Bill has been
read for the first time? I ask, whether there is not consider-
able danger—when we are to have the reading of a Bill, and
the discussion consequent upon it, without the benefit of en-
eactmehtessif all the Virtue to be given to the existing powers
by the Bill are to be suspended, and an exciting effect caused
upon the population? These are the reasons which the Right
Hon. Baronet has given for proceeding with the Bill, and they
are reasons which tell entirely the other way, and entirely in
favour of proceeding the other way. Let him say that he does
not consider himself justified in voting for the motion of my
lion. Friend the Member for Drogheda. It will be the part
of the Right Hon. Gentleman to show the state of outrage
existing in Ireland—to show what are the crimes that have
been committed—aud to show that the Bill will
have the effect of preventing them. That will be
the case the Right limn Gentleman will have to make
out, and if the House should refuse to sanction the motion of
my Hon. Friend, it will consider it necessary that some case
for the first reading of the Bill should be made out. I hope
the House will not consent to the proposition, and will post-
pone this Bill until some future time, even though it should be
carried in its present rash shape—so as to give the Government
an opportunity of proposirg more remedial measures. I ask
for no measure beyond those on which the Government has
declared its intention to legislate—namely, to alter the law as
regarded la, dlerd and tenant, and the Municipal Corporation
Bill. I wish that the list of Irish grievances could be summed
up in these topics, but they are more extensive. Ido not ask
the Government to propose any other measures, but to proceed
when it is time for proceeding, and to obtain peace. When we
come to consider the crimes of which the Hon. Member for
Lynn has given a sample, we are bound to consider whether or
not the measure might in some degree remove the cause of
them. / I beg leave to say, with regard to newspaper accounts
which the Right Hon. Gentleman has referred to, I also have
read an account in a newspaper of a whole village, containing
275 houses, having been razed to the ground, and the inha-
bitants sent adrift in the high road to seek a shelter, and even
not allowed to remain under the hedges or the ruins of their
houses to boil their pots of potatoes. I saw that in a Dublin
newspaper, in the statement made by a gentleman, a re-
porter of the paper ; and in that statement he
said that the circumstances were pet sonally known
to him. It is necessary to take up these subjects
together, after the consideration of the Corn Bill has
been disposed of, as the condition of landlord anal tenant is
not improved, and to give the Executive Government power
to check the progress of murder and assassination. Without
these powers I say that there will not be any great moral ad-
vantage or any limit to outrage, unless you are determined to
use force fully against assassination, and have a• feeling of de-
termination to stop the causes of these outrages by some alio'
measure as well as this Bill. The present Bill may be en-
forced, and a foundation laid, so that fur ever after a necessity
for these Bills may be avoided.
Sir R. PEEL—In determining the course which the Go-
vernment will adopt with respect to these Bills, to which I
attach great importance, Government is in a situation of pe-
culiar difficulty, on account of its present position. 1 certainly
did not expect to hear, whatever might have been the discus-
sion, any doubt expressed as to the sincerity of her Majesty's
Government with regard to the Corn Bill. I must refer to the
circumstances under which it has been brought forward—to the
loss which I have sustained of the confidence of Hon. Members.
When the time does come, the Hon. Gentlemen shall see
whether her Majesty's Government are sincere with regard to
the Corn Bill, even in the event of a failure. The
accusation with regard to this case I have always
denied. With respect to discussion, as to whether power
should be given with regard to this Bill, let the House look at
the facts of the case. Certainly, with regard to the full de-
claration I have made before, in answer to a question addressed
to me by the Noble Lord on Friday night last, I feel no dis-
position to alter it. I said that the course her Majesty's
Government felt it necessary to pursue was to consider whether
it was possible to obtain the first reading of the Bill for the pur-
pose of obtaining a division upon it. No man can feel more than I
do the extreme importance of the agricultural interest—of a de-
cision being taken on the Corn Bill. I said that I would take this
Coercion Bill after the second reading of the Corn Bill; and, as-
suming that the division would take place on Friday night, I
intended to propose this first reading, If the division of the
House was in favour of the first renting, I intended to proceed
with the Corn Bill, permitting no Government measure what-
ever to interfere with its' progress. I said that for the in-
' formation of all parties, in answer to the question of the Noble
Lord, and to that declaration I must still adhere. I feel
it my duty to ask the decision of the House with regard to
the first reading of this Bill. It has been on the table
of the House since the 16th, and I supposed that the first
reading would be a matter of course. 1 say, that so far from
the Hon. Gentleman wishing to proceed with undue precipi-
tancy, with regard to this Bill for Ireland, he proposed, that
for the first time the Bill should be read at once, and after
that, that you should have a delay given to you. If you con-
sented to take no steps whatever, my Right Honourable
Friend must have another oportunity of laying his
Bill before the House. What other reasons induced him
on the part of the Government to propose such extraordinary
precautions against assassination in Ireland? what n ould be the
inference that would be drawn, if he had departed from the
course which he had adopted? Although the House of Lords
had passed the Bill, and although her Majesty, in her
speech from the throne, have reminded the House that
this was a subject for their consideration, they would
not, for the first time, consent to the first reading of
the Bill,' without any discussion, but with a disregard
to the common courtesy to the House, hail endeavoured to
postpone it. The decision of the 1-louse on the first reading
would not be conclusive. The discussion might not lead to
any particular result, but what would be the inferences that
would be drawn from any departure from the uniform and esta-
blished rules? But the -Government were indifferent to this
subject. With respect to the course Hon. Gentlemen may pur-
sue on this subject, I can assure them that they are free to deal
with the case. They are under no obligation to give their
support to this measure. I know that thej Government is
situated in a peculiar situation. The Noble Lord the Member
for Lynn said that we are responsible for every murder com-
mitted in Ireland, and for the death of every person that might
die of starvation. After a mature deliberation, we could not
consent to a definite proposal. We wished that the House
might be bound to adhere to the first reeding of the Bill.
Every species of delay had been thrown in the way
of Government. The course they wished to pursue was, that
Hon. Members might propose measures. We wish to leave it
to the representatives of the Commons of England to dispose
of this measure. I know the power individuals generally pos-
sess of causing difficulties, and of the power they had of con-
tinuing the debate by resorting to the extreme measure of ad-
journing. That does not relieve the Government from the re-
sponsibility of proposing such measures as they might deem
necessary. I should be unworthy of being a Member
of the Government, were I to permit the abuse
of the powers possessed by individuals, to vary the
course deliberately come to on the part of the Government.
On Friday last we stated the course we intended to take, and
that we should ask you to take the first reading to-night. I
deeply regret the course that some Hon. Members purpose to
pursue, of procrastinating the passing of the Bill, by offering
opposition to it in every stage of its progress. This is not
acting in a worthy way by the measure.—( Hear, hear.) I
will admit of every fair delay and opposition, but in doing this
I wish to uphold the authority of the House, and that respect
which is due to this the popular and democratic branch of the
Legislature.—( Hear, hear.) Depend upon it, if a small body
of Members set themselvi'es up in opposition to the majority of
this House, and set at nought the usual rules that regulate its
proceedings—depend upon it, in doing so, they are taking a
course which is most unwise, and opposed to the advancement
of, the very objects they seek to serve.—( Hear, hear.) Ido
hope that you will submit to a decision at once, and that my
Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. Graham) will be allowed to make
his statement to the House. The Noble Lord the Member
for Lynn has given a not unfair statement as to the injustice
ofaa thed ttake
am
toht o e
ont
hteo leave
atlas
fe c
theo n s
(14111 eyr a
thatt io of n
foli a twh present
Thisres en t Bill,
would
not be seemly in the present state of Ireland. But while I
wish the Bill to be taken in the course I propose, and while 1
do not wish any opportunity of stating objections to its pro-
visions, I must protest against motions of the present kind,
which arc only of a technical and frivolous character.
I have no wish to excite angry feelings on this question, on
which
is the question hso muchqaasin beforetorongfee theling hrai
exists
? stssalreft is a m
already
tsatillpelrmiaug withstas
what
its forms for a particular purpose, and one on which the mea-
sure to be considered cannot be debated conducive with the
rules of the House. The Hon. Gentleman has moved that the
first reading. of the present Bill be waved, and that the other
orders of the day be proceeded with. But to that 1 will answer,
that I cannot take the other business, under present circum-
stances, and if the amendment is agreed to, and the motion
tejscted, I do not feel at liberty to persevere with the other
orders of the day. Under these circumstances, considering
the importance of the Bill, and that no unfair advantage had
been taken in its introduction, I do hope that my Right Hon.
Friend ( Sir James Graham) will be allowed to make his state-
ment. Ido hope this course will be agreed in, and that any
discussion on the subject, will be taken after that statement has
been made,—( Hear, hear.)
Lord G. BENTINCK said ho had been misunderstood by
the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Secretary at War, and the Right Hon. Baronet at the head
of the Government. What he did say was, that her Majesty's
Government and that House were responsible for every mur-
der committed in Ireland, owing to any unnecessary delay in
the passing of the measure that her Majesty's Ministers had
introduced for the protection of life in Ireland.—(Hear. )
Sir R. H. INGLIS said that the Noble Lord, the Member
for the city of London (Lord J. Russell), had stated that, inde-
pendent of the decision of the House on the present measure,
there should be no time lost in forwarding the remedial mea-
sures for the state of Ireland. But what was the object of the
present Bill ? It was to repress outrage ; and if so, it could
not be passed too soon. He agreed with the Noble Lord
(Bentinck), that he did not find fault with the Government in
introducing the Bill, but that they had not introduced it some
time ago. Her Majesty's Government ought to have intro-
duced it some months since, instead of allowing the evils to
continue without a remedy.
Lord WORSLEY wished to explain the vote he was about
to give on this question. On the question of the corn-laws he
had differed with the party on that side of the House with
whom he usually acted ; therefore he wished to explain why it
was he would now support the proposition in favour of the
Government. Since November last great alarm had prevailed
among the agriculturists respecting the expected alteration in
the Customs, and the consequence was that trade and agricul-
ture suffered. Any delay in the settlement of the corn ques-
tion would perpetuate the state of uncertainty and alarm, and,
therefore, he would vote for the first reading of the Bill, re-
serving to himself the right of voting against it in any of its
future stages.
Colonel RAWDON considered that the Irish Members
who objected to the present Bill might very well speak, when
they had been blamed with the death of the unfortunate men
who had been killed in Ireland. He utterly disclaimed the
imputation. The Noble Lord who made it had shown himself
a good tactician, as he would be able now to make two speeches
on the measure, having gone somewhat into it in the one he
had just made. He (Colonel Rawdon) would advise the Irish
Members not to expend their ammunition at present, but, at
the proper time, to use it against the measure. His feelings had
been roused by a speech which had been made in another House
of Parliament by the Duke of Wellington, on this Bill, which
he (Colonel Rawdon), as an Irishman, repudiated.
The SPEAKER called the Hon. Member to order, for re-
ferring to a speech of a member of the other House.
Colonel RAWDON said that the Noble Lord who had just
spoken (Lord G. Bentinck) had referred to the speeches of
the Marquis of Clanricarde and the Earl of Lansdowne, and
therefore he (Colonel Hamden) thought he had a right to refer
' to the speech of the Duke of Wellington.—(Cries of " No.")
The SPEAKER—The Hon. and Gallant Member is out of
order in alluding to any speech made in a debate in the other
House of Parliament.
Colonel RAWDON—Then he would allude to no debate
whatever, but only say that the Duke of Wellington had ex-
pressed himself in terms which he (Col. Rawdon) altogether
rejected. He could not agree that the union between Ireland
and this country was a legitimate compact, or that the obliga-
tions were such as had been represented. It was a union to
which the people of Ireland had not been a party, and of which
he did not approve.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL rose to address the House, amidst
3eud cries of ° Divide, divide." He said that no answer had

been given by the Government, and Hon. Members on the
other side of the House, to the strong representations of the
Irish Members against this measure. He knew the reason, and
the people of Ireland also knew the reason. The Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary at War (Mr. Sidney Herbert) had
spoken in a deprecatory manner of the opposition promised by
Irish Members to every stage of the Bill, and by every form of
the House. But he would tell that Right Hon. Member that
they did not choose to allow the last remnant of liberty left
them to be taken away without a resolute struggle, and he
would further tell him that by passing that measure, the Go-
vernment would trample out in the minds of the Irish people
Whatever little feeling might yet remain in favour of the legis-
lative union.—( Hear, hear.) He would inform him that
they (the Irish Members) would fight the battle firmly,
stoutly, and openly, even though they were a small party,
They were a small party, and of that they had complained for
the last forty-five years—ever since they had carried out the
execrable union against the people of Ireland. He complained
they were a small party ; but to that they were indebted to the
union, and that was one matter which, with many others, they
sought to redress. Solemn promises had been made to them,
but which had never been fulfilled. They had been promised
that Ireland should have given to her all those constitutional
privileges which England possessed. But this had never been
fulfilled, and hence it was that they sought to have their own
Parliament back again, and a repeal of the legislative union.
The promises made to Ireland had been most bountifully broken,
and not the slightest disposition shown to do justice to that
country. But, if the Irish Members in that House were a
small party, he could say they were strong in the affections of
the people. They now came forward and taunted them with
being a small party. True, they were a small party; but they
had eight millions of Irish hearts at their backs, and they feared
not for the issue. The only answer that had been that night
drawn from the Treasury Bench was one in answer to the
Noble Lord at the head of the protection party, who seemed—
if his own speech that night were to be taken into account—
to imagine that he was to be the future Minister of England,
and already determined to mislegislate for the Irish people.
He was also the leader of a very small party, which would
in time be still less, because they were opposed to
the policy of giving cheap food to the people. They were
told by the Noble Lord that the course adopted by the Right
Hon. Baronet that evening was a common practice. He thought
that something more than a merely common practice might be
introduced when the liberties of a nation were to be infringed
on. But what did the Right Hon. Gentleman ask ? The
Right Hon. Gentleman who was leaving the House now—( Mr.
Sidney Herbert, who was, passing the bar at the moment, re-
turned to his seat on the Treasury Bench. )—(Loud cries of
Question, question.") If it were the pleasure of the House
to adjourn, he was very ready to do so. The Right Hon.
Gentleman—and he was very sorry that he had belt' obliged to
detain him—told the House that they were ',liable, by their
conduct, to' the charge: of sanctioning crime in Ireland.
To that imputation, he with the same strength with which the
assertion had been made, threw it back on the party who ad-
vanced it. He charged them instead with sanctioning crime in
Ireland with the measures they were then proposing, The
Noble Lord on the one side accused them of sanctioning the
crime of assassination by postponing the Bill, while on that side
they were charged with the crime of adding to the present
miseries of the Irish people by delaying in any way the passing
of the Corn Bill. He charged the Noble Lord with doing
both ; and now he accused the Right Hon. Baronet and his
friends in the Treasury Bench of being accessory to the crimes
of the peasantry. Only two years ago they, the Irish Members,
came over to this House, on the occasion of the Landlord and
Tenant Commission in Ireland, and their language on that
occasion was not of supplicating men ; their language was this—
" Mind what you are doing for us, and for Heaven's sake take
care what you are doing with this ommission; you are rousing
the most sanguine hopes in the minds of the desperate peasantry
of Ireland; you are exciting hopes in their minds, hopes which
shall not be afterwards realised, and it is no use telling us here
that you are only sending out that Commission to ask for in-
formation." They told the Right Hon. Baronet then that he
could not reason with starvation—that he could not reason with
madness. They told him to go on, if he so liked, till some
fortunate chance occurred, when he might claim the merit of
wisdom, instead of by that course adopting measures which
would only lead to disappointing the minds of desperate men,
the wild hopes they had by these measures been led to conceive.
Has not their words come true ? He did not blame the Com-
missioners; for, to the honour aril credit of those gentlemen whose
names appeared upon it, they represented things in Ireland
very fairly ; but he maintained that their words ought to have
had some effect on the mind of the Right Hon. Baronet.
The Right Hon. Baronet had used some expressions
towards Ireland with which they had some right to be
offended. But, as he had given an apology, he would not
again refer to them further than to say that it was an apology
which was justly due to them. But he had an objection of his
own to the present Bill.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," " Question,
question.") A deputation of persons—he could not call them
gentlemen, because he thought them undeserving of the name
of men—went up to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, en the
subject of the disturbances in that country, and he understood
that they prayed of the Lord Lieutenant to oblige them by
taking the blood of a man whom his countrymen believed to
be innocent—he meant the unfortunate man Seery. He (Mr.
John O'Connell) had placed a notice on the books of that
House, giving to the deputation what he believed was their
proper title, but he was remonstrated with in private in a
quarter from which he had always received the utmost kind-
ness and courtesy. He marked his sense of their kindness, by
withdrawing and not repeating the expression. The sheet on
which his motion had been placed was altogether cancelled, on
the ground that it pledged the House to an expression of opi-
nion, before it had given its vote on the matter. Now, what
was the case here. This Bill was presented to the House
with a false and calumnious title.—(Hear, hear.) It was
stated to be a Bill for the more effectual preservation
of life and property in Ireland. It was net so. Property
would not be better protected by the bill ;—life would not be
so well protected—because the measure itself would
aggravate the cause of discontent in Ireland. Why, then,
should the Bill be introduced before the House with this title?
—a false title, because it stated itself as for the better preserva-
tion of life and property in Ireland. It had been said that
night that theirs was a factious opposition, because they were
determined, by every form of the House, to defeat the Bill.
They were justified by their consciences in doing so. They
did it with the sanction of the people of Ireland, and their
constituencies approved of it. They would persevere in their
opposition to the last moment. If this was a factious opposi-
tion they gloried in it, because they were opposed to the de-
struction of the last liberties of the Irish people. It was an
opposition carried on with the view of defending their country-
men from a measure of mere wanton and useless tyranny.
There was another charge trumped up against them, out it wa
almost too trivial to be alluded to. It was that they (the re-
peelers of Ireland) were anxious for the repeal of
the corn-laws because it was one of the few advan-
tages which the union had given to Ireland. The charge
did not require to be refuted. A few words more to the Noble
Lord opposite, the future Minister of England. The Noble
Lord had endeavoured to influence the judgment of Members
in that House by his speech on the motion for reading the
order of the day. But he would ask the Noble Lord, if he
had supported a Coercion—or if he had said one word in favour
of a Coercion Bill, at the period of the riots in Wales? Until
a poor woman had been murdered, no extraordinary powers
were asked for. He had never supported strong measures then.
He had never adverted to that case then, but he had brought
forward the case here. Was this the kind of chivalry which
was to distinguish the opposite party—that the poor man's
bread should be taxed, in order to uphold the power
and wealth of a pampered aristocracy. Every form of the
House should be used to stop the Bill ; and he told that Right
Hon. Baronet, that the consequences of the delay of the Corn
Bill would be upon him alone.
Mr. COBDEN—From the remarks which fell from the
Right Hon. Baronet, I was left in some doubt whether the
proposed statement, which is to be made by the Right Hon.
Baronet, the Home Secretary, shall be gone on with to-
night, or whether it is the intention of the Government to press
a division on this question ?
Sir R. PEEL—We shall proceed with the first reading of
the Bill. My Right Hon. Friend will make his statement,
then we shall leave it to the House to judge what course they
will pursue. When I said that my Right Hon. Friend would
have an opportunity of making his statement, I did not mean
to imply that that was sufficient, and that there we should stop.
Mr. COBDEN—Before we go to a division, I cannot help
expressing my sincere regret at the course adopted by her Ma-
jesty's Government. I think it will he a great calamity both
to England and to Ireland; for although the Government bring
this measure of coercion forward, as a measure which will
pacify Ireland or contribute to the peace of Ireland, we must
bear in mind that those who represent the Irish feeling in this
House—those who have the greatest influence in Ireland—have
a distinctly contrary opinion ; whereas, on the subject of corn,
that great question of giving food to the people of England and
Ireland, no difference of opinion exists. If I understand
rightly, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who, I may say,
represents Ireland, came over expressly to surtain her Ma-
jesty's Ministers in their wish to give increased subsistence to
the people of England. That question, I think, should have
taken precedence of the coercive measure, inasmuch as those
who understand the interest of Ireland know that the best way
to pacify Ireland is by giving the people food. But have the
Government considered what will be the delay that will be
caused by proceeding with tho Bill now? If you go into the
discussion to-night, the Honourable Member for Li-
merick county has told you that the Irieh Members
themselves are prepred to sustain their opposition to
the first reading for three nights. This might be a Govern-
ment night ; Friday and Monday following are Government
nights, and these three will be occupied in the discussion. You
cannot reckon upon those nights occupied by private members
—you cannot reckon upon these for the debate on the Coercion
Bill. You must have Thursday night in Committee—) ou
must have the following Tuesday night in Committee.
Private Members will not give np their notices in order to ac-
commodate the Govrnment on this subject. You therefore,
cannot take another step on the Corn Bill before Laster. The
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Devonport stated most
truly that Hon. Gentlemen opposite would come up again
after Easter, trusting that we shall have forgotten all their
tedious arguments, and repeat the same thing over again.—
( Laughter.) In all human probability that Corn Bill will not
reach the House of Lords before the beginning or the
middle of May, and when it shall pass out
of that House, heaven only knows.—( Hear, hear.)
I think this is a great calamity. Ido not attribute any motives,
such as those which have been hazarded against the Right
Hon. Baronet arid the conduct of the Government. But there
is something which actuates them which I cannot understand.
Their reasons have not been explained in this House. We
have had no reason to warrant the course they are pursuing.
1 believe there is no compact between the Government and
certain Hon. Gentlemen, and do not believe those conversa-
tions which are published in to-day's paper, sad which ought
not to have been published, even if they had taken place. Ido
not believe there is any such compact. The Right Honourable
Baronet at the head of the Government has acted upon the
decision which he gave four or five days ago, before any Irish
Member had spoken upon the subject. He now knows what
will be the feelings of those Members should he
press this Coercion Bill before the Corn Bill. He
does not, in my opinion, impeach the sincerity
at all of his determination to carry this measure
I rejoice, and the country will rejoice, that the Right Honour-
able Baronet has this night declared, that nothing shall prevent
him showing his sincerity in resisting any obstruction or mu-
tilation of the Corn Bill; and I have a full conviction, a most
earnest conviction, that he will deeply regret the course he is
now taking, because I think the present state of the country—
the manufacturing districts, from which we hear every day—
the agricultural districts, the inhabitants of which, as the Noble
Lord the Member for Lincolshire has stated, are anxious to
have a settlement, and do not care for the amount of the
settlement so much as for a speedy settlement of the Corn
question. Under these circumstances I deeply regret having
to go into a lobby to vote against the Government on such a
question as this.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided—
For the amendment
For the first reading 147
Majority for Ministers ........ . ........ —39
Sir J. GRAHAM then rose and said that, in the absence of
any member of her Majesty's Government more immediately
connected with Ireland, it was his painful duty, on that occa-
sion, to propose to the House the first reading of the Bill
which came down from the other House of Parliament. The
Hon. Member for Stockport had said that there was some mys-
terious motive in pressing this Bill. He hoped the House
would indulge him with a patient hearing, while he endea-
voured to state to them cogent rellons, which, in his judg-
ment at least, appeared conclusive that no time was to be lost
in passing such a measure u this. There were, however, some