The Sun.
London, England, 1848-05-16 00:00:00

4
by foreigners, tut by that competition to which he is now
exposed, without any protection whatever—l mean the
competition of our own colonists. The cheapest ships
in the world are those which are built in our own British
North American colonies. For some purposes they are
extremely useful, and, for the same purposes, it is a great
advantage to the shipowner to have access to those
ships. It might be supposed that this would tell
against the ship-building of England ; but it is
not so ; for while the colonial ship-building has
greatly increased, the trade in ship-building on
the English coast has enormously increased also.
My belief is, that, in addition to choice of timber and
materials, we have also the best and cheapest labour in
the world. If we repeal the restrictions of the naviga-
tion-laws, all foreign materials necessary for the con-
struction of ships will be brought to England far cheaper
than they now are, and in that also the shipowner will
derive a considerable advantage. Upon the whole, lam
satisfied, that when the House shall come to examine
that part of the subject, it will see that it is a matter of
justice to the British shipowner to remove those protec-
tions, to allow him access to foreign-built ships if he so
thinks fit, and that by doing so it will run no risk
whatever of destroying that valuable and important
branch of trade in the hands of our own countrymen.
On the contrary, my belief is, that the sort of stimulus
thus given to British ship-building will be of the most
salutary kind. I can discover no reason why we should!
lag in this particular behind any foreign country in the.
world. If in some particulars the United States of
America appear to excel us in the construction of ships,
I am sure it can only be owing to the monopoly which
has hitherto existed ; if you remove that, you
will give a salutary stimulus to the interests
of British trade, and I do not see any reason we should
not sustain ourselves under the competition of foreigners.
It seems to me that those who maintain that ships cannot
be built as cheaply in this country-as in any other part
of the world, ought also to maintain that we cannot
make any other article of manufacture as cheaply. I
cannot conceive any argument of that kind which will
not apply, in an infinitely stronger degree, to other
great articles of manufacture. I now come to an objec-
tion which I know has the greatest weight in the minds
of many men, and if I believed myself in its truth and
validity I confess I should think that all the arguments
I have adduced in favour of those changes ought to go
for nothing; I mean, that it would be destructive to
the military, marine, and naval greatness of this
country. That opinion has the sanction of some
great names, and among others, of Adam Smith, who
says, that "as defence is better than commerce, so
the navigation-laws, though in his view injurious to
commerce, are wise and salutary." I will not now
enter into the inquiry, whether in the days of Adam
Smith that distinction existed; though I must express a
different opinion with modesty and doubt, my own belief
is, that that opinion is one of the few errors to be found
in him. But whatever may have been the case in his
time, I believe that argument will not apply now. The
question is, will the removal of the restrictions of the
navigation-laws increase or diminish your maritime
commerce?—(Hear, hear.) Ido not agree with those
who contend that you can separate maritime commerce
from naval power. I do not believe that a great naval
power can safely be maintained on any other basis than
that of a large commercial marine_ ; _ and if I thought the
measure I mean to propose to the House were calculated
to fritter away and annihilate the commercial marine, of
this country, I should be prepared to admit they would
be almost destructive to the naval greatness of this
country. But it is enough for me to show that the mea-
sure, so far from diminishing the commercial marina of
the country, will in reality increase and enlarge its, end
if that be the case we need never fear to have ship of
war sufficient for the defence of this country.—(llear.)
Mr. Huskisson stated the true doctrine on this sub-
ject when he said that the only true and durable
ioundation of a large commercial marine was to be found
in the means of affording them beneficial emproymeni;
I have stated that I believe no danger is to be appre-
hended -from this measure to our commercial greatness;
I wish I could say that I saw no danger to be appre•
hended from any other source ; but in my opinion the
true peril to our commercial greatness is that of raising
up the jealousies of rivals against us. lam afraid that
there are real dangers of this kind, and I must leave it
to the House to apply any remedies their wisdom may
devise for them. I hope their attention has been directed
to a very remarkable correspondence which has been for
some time laid on the table, consisting of letters from our
consuls abroad in reply to a circular sent to them from
the Foreign-office. I think no gentleman can have
perused those documenls without feelings of deep regret
at the evils prevailing in our commercial marine. Our
mercantile navy suffers exceedingly in its competition
with those of other countries—not from the want of any
protection or restriction from the State, but, I regret to
say, from evils inherent in itself, which no amount of
protection can cure, but which, on the contrary, I
believe the indirect effect of the removal of protection
will go a great way to remove. What do we find
described by almost every consul who writes from
different quarters of the globe ? They state that,
whilst the character of the British seaman for what is
technically called handling ships remains as high as ever,
still unfortunately, owing to the low character of our
shipmasters, their want of skill, and I am sorry to say
in many cases their defective morality, which produces
a very relaxed state of discipline on board of their ships,
our vessels are fast lossng their share in the commerce
of the world.—(Loud ironical cries of " Hear, hear,"
from the Protectionists.) I make that assertion ad-
visedly; it is much better to look these evils in the face
than to attempt to disguise them from ourselves. Mer-
chants, therefore, in too many instances, prefer to en•
trust their cargoes to American, Bremen, or Swedish,
rather than to British ships, on account of the injurious
effect of the circumstances I have pointed out. It is my
firm conviction that these evils have grown up very
much in consequence of the system of protection, which
leads the British shipowner not to exert himself to im-
prove the character of his ship; and I believe that the
effect of removing protection will be to secure improve-
ment.—(Hear, hear.) There are other measures con-
nected with the merchant navy which I think ought to
receive the attention of the House,, two -of which I
propose to introduce in the course of the present ses-
sion one affecting the question of light dues,
the other for the regulation of the merchant sea-
men's fund. There are also others which I hoped
to be able to introduce in the present session, but
which, though withdrawn for the time, I hope Parlia-
ment will deal with, and that in a manner advantageous
to the commerce of the country. I refer to the pilotage
question, and to any means which we may be enabled to
employ for ensuring a better and more competent in-
struction of British shipmasters. A measure of this
kind would be amongst the most useful which could be
devised by Parliament for the improvement of our mer-
chant navy.—(Hear, hear.) It is perhaps not surprising
that some apprehension should be felt by the class; whom
it more particularly affects, with respect to the change I
propose; but I believe such apprehensions to be ground-
less. My conviction is, that in the continuance of pro-
tection they will find their ruin.—(Hear.) Protection and
monopoly will avail them nothing in remedying the evils
to which I have adverted; they will only narrow and
confine the general commerce of this country. The navi-
gation of this country must depend on its commerce; and
to suppose that anything which in the long run cripples
and narrows the commerce and manufactures of this
country can be favourable to its navigation, is, I believe,
an idle vision. This, and every other class of the com-
munity, will find their true interest in the long run in
being allowed to compete on equal terms with other
countries of the world, instead of being encumbered with
a system of protection which does them no good, but is
deeply injurious to the general interests of the country.
—(lean) I have now done—l have gone through, I
am afraid, very imperfectly, this great subject—(Hear,
hear)—and I beg humbly and respectfully to recommend
the proposals I have made to the deliberate and impartial
consideration of Parliament. I believe that, if they are
adopted, their effect will be greatly beneficial to this
country at large, and to no interest of this country more
beneficial than that which I value as much as any man
can d—ol mean the commercial prosperity and manufae-
' turing greatness of the British empire.—(hear.) I be-
lieve this alteration will produce, instead of jealous rival-
ries and the irritation of foreign nations—instead of
crippled trade and contracted manufactures,freedom, goods
will, prosperity, and peace. I believe we shall be placing
the prosperity of England upon the best and noblest
foundation, if we can connect- it, as in my opinion we
can and shall do by this measure, with the general in.
terest, the extending trade, the continued peace, advance-
ment, and prosperity of the whole civilised world.—
(Cheers.) The Right lion. Gentleman concluded by
proposing a resolution, "That it is expedient to remove
the restrictions which prevent the carriage by sea be-
tween the United Kingdom and British possessions
abroad of goods in foreign vessels, subject only to such
control as her Majesty's Government may deem neces-
sary, and that it is expedient-to amend the laws relating
to the registration of ships and seamen." •
Mr. ELLIOT asked whether the measure would
affect that provision of the navigation-laws requiring
four men to be carried for every 100 tons?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said his Hon. Friend had
fallen into a very common error in believing that to
be the law, but it was not so. He believed the law
to be that, provided an English ship maintained the
proportion of three-fourths English seamen and one-
fourth foreign, it might carry any proportion of men to
the tonnage the owners pleased. It was only when they
had more than one-fourth of the seamen on board fo-
reigners that the other provision was applicable. Prac-
tically, the restriction did not come into play, because
ships never carried more than one-fourth of the crew
foreigners.
In answer to Mr. FORSTER,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he would ask leave of the
House to take the preliminary steps, which would en-
able him to bring in measures relative to the light dues
and merchant-seamen's fund ; but he had not mixed
them up in his statement.
In answer to Mr. HUME,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that Ceylon would be
treated exactly as any other British colony.
Mr. GLADSTONE felt that on a measure of so
much importance as the present it was better they
should ;postpone any discussion until they had the
Right Honourable Gentleman's plan before them, and
time was allowed for considering it. He rose, therefore,
only to put one or two questions on parts of the Right
Hon. Gentleman's statement as to which ho was in
some doubt. He understood the Right Honourable
Gentleman to say that for the Lame reasons which
made it expedient to continue the existing restrictions
on the coasting trade, he thought it expedient to continue
the restrictions on the fisheries. He did not know
whether gibe right Honourable Gentleman had in view
asive Rights of fishing on certain banks and
within
bthienxece
slain limits enjoyed by British vessels, or the
imposed by our commercial laws on the im-
portationrestraits: n
of fish in foreign vessels. By the
Customs Act of 1845 it was enacted that
all fish of foreign taking shall not be imported
union itk Tessek which shall but bleu cleared

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,b 101: g

iou regularly with such fish op,hetai-d from some foreign
port, thus preventing foreign vessels from coming di=
reef from the fisheries' with fish on board to a British
port. He did not distinctly gather whether it was in-
tended to continue that restriction, or whether foreign
shiitphstewhoiuridcabreg permittedcargoes
from
theunderfisheries
t he l
to a Bish port.
a w t o c o mr
iedi r ectl
w
This was a question of great importance, not only with
respect to the supply of the British markets with fish,
but also to the trade in whale oil, which was carried
on to so large an extent by American ves-
sels. It was material they should know whether
those vessels would be allowed to come from
the South Seas, fer instance, with their oil, or whether
it must first be carried to an American port. He
also wished to know whether the Right Honourable
Gentleman meant to propose to Parliament any mea-
sures relative to the education of young persons for a
seafaring life, and the examination of masters and
mates to ascertain their fitness. He could have wished,
also, to have heard some statement as to the effect of the
measure enacted a few years ago for the voluntary exa-
mination of masters and mates, so as also to know
whether Government had determined to give any
further
extension to the system. The subject of naval educatien
appeared to him to be one of such great importance,
that he would be glad if it should be found possible to
afford aid from the public funds towards the establish.
went of schools in the seaports. He wished to knew
also whether the Right Honourable Gentleman was in ft
condition to give them any further information with re-
gard to the views and intentions of foreign powers, other
than those to whom he had alluded—Prussia and the
United States, for instance: whether there were reasons
to suppose that the views of two such maritime powers
as Sweden and Denmark would be likely to coincide
with the general provisions of the measure now
announced.
Mr. LABOUCHERE would endeavour to answer the
Right Hon. Gentleman's questions. First, with respect
to the fisheries, he apprehended if the House were to
assent to the measure it was his duty to
propose, it
would be In the power of a foreign vessel engaged in the
deep sea fishery to bring the produce of that fishery di-
rect to this country. The alteration proposed would go
to that extent ; but with regard to the coast and bank
fisheries, it was not proposed to abandon the ancient
privileges of this country.
Our own deep see fisheries
would have a better chance of competing with foreigners,
if allowed to send home their produce any vessel,
whether native or foreign. With respect to the inten-
tions of foreign powers, other than Prussia and the
United States, Ministers ? bad not thought it expe-
dient to make any overtures or to enter into any com •
munications with foreign states, until they knew the
views of the House of Commons. He felt the great
importance of the other subjects to which the Right
Honourable Gentleman adverted—naval education and
the examination of shipmasters. A system of voluntary
examination had been in operation for some time, which
had been adopted to a considerable extent by ship-
owners, who had availed themselves of this channel.
He was disposed to give it a further trial before attempt-
ing to substittite-any compulsory system, which might be
open to objection. With respect to the subject of
schools for the instruction of seafaring persons, he
should be glad if it were to engage the attention of the
House. He had felt, in the ministerial arrangements of
the Executive Government, the want of some department
whose special business it should be to consider, protect,
and promote the interests of the mercantile marine.
There was no professional maritime assistant at the
Board of Taade, and be had always felt the inconve-
nience of deciding on such questions without such assist-
ance. He should therefore propose, in the course of the
present session, to constitute a department of the Board
of Trade, to be called the department of the mercantile
marine, consisting of unpaid officers, which would be
superintended by one of the Lords of the Admiralty,
thus affording to the Government, without any increase
with more advantage than they now-could. of 'expense, th'si'meaes- of 'considering suchquestions
Mr. G. ROBINSON (who spoke amidst great confu-
sion from Members leaving the House) was understood
to say that nothing could remove from his mind the im-
pression that the great interests of the country were
most seriously menaced by the measures now proposed.
The time at which they were brought forward was
most inopportune; why not defer them until the evidence
taken before the other House had been published? lie
saw much in the labours of the Committee to confirm,
the views he entertained, namely, that it would be pre-
judicial to the interests of the country to alter the navi-
gation-laws. He would not offer any factious opposition
to the measure, but he thought he might predict that it
would considerably add to the difficulties of the Go-
vernment. He saw no reason for pressing the measure
in the present session. With respect to the representa-
tions of the colonies for a repeal of these laws, the only
inference that could be drawn from them was, that those
colonies having been ruined by the free-trade policy,
now wished to indemnify themselves at the expense of
the shipping interest. He could only say that they
would be disappointed in those expectations. He denied
that the consumers would derive any benefit from the re-
peal of the navigation-laws. The difference in the amount
of freight in British vessels and foreign vessels was so
small that it could not benefit the home consumer.
The Right Hon. Gentleman said that all the great
authorities were in favour of a repeal of these laws.. He
denied that ; for even Mr. Iluskisson himself, the first
great commercial reformer, advocated that measure only
to the extent of the reciprocity system. The effect of this
measure would be to give a stimulus to the naval power
of foreign countries. The Hon. Gentleman then read an
extract from the address of the President of the United
States, which represented the marine of that country as
progressing at such a rate, that if it continued to go on
in the same way they would soon be the first maritime
country in the world. There was no doubt that the
United States was the most formidable power that this
country ever met with on the sea. Besides, a great re-
volution had taken place in a neighbouring country, the
effect of which would be to draw closer the ties of sym-
pathy which existed already between France and Ame-
rica. Was this a time, then, for them to do anything
which would injure the naval power of the country ? He
believed that this country would come out of a contest
with thdse countries victorious ; but Parliament
ought to be cautious before they committed an
act which would lessen her power.—(Hear.) The
Right Honourable Gentleman said that protection was
no longer necessary for this country. He (Mr.
Robinson) believed that protection was necessary to give
employment to the working classes, and if the contrary
principle was adopted, the ruin of this country would be
the result. 'He did not agree in all the views of Mr.
liuskisson with respect to commerce and the navigation-
laws, but that great man never proposed any measure
that was calculated to injure the country. On one
occasion Mr. Huskisson said that when the interests of
commerce and navigation could not be reconciled. the
latter should be preferred to the former. The Right
Hon. Gentleman alluded to the letter of Mr. Bancroft.
Now, it was a maxim of the executive of the United
States never to relax in carrying any point which it
thought would be beneficial to that country, and Mr.
Ban 'oft, having an American object in view, chose the
might appear very
present time, with great tact, to write the letter which
had been read. Although it
liberal on the part of the United States to offer to
reciprocate with them, he would recommend'to the
House nut to be led away by that circumstance, because
the fact was, that the United States had no advan-
tages to offer to this country if she repealed the
navigation-laws, whereas the United States hail very
great advantages to obtain from their repeal.—(Hear.)
The advantage would, in fact, be all on one side. lie
confessed he did not see the advantage of keeping any
colonies at all, if their trade was to be given up to
foreigners. They would not be able to give employment
to the people of the country if they gave up protection.
They would be surrounded with a labour question which
they would find very difficult of solution. Chartism was
put down, but the cause which gave birth to it still
existed, and would be aggravated if they passed this
measure. lie was ready to support any measures for
extending commerce, provided they did not trench on
the fundamental principle of the navigation-laws.
Mr. lIUME said he agreed with the Hon. Gentleman
that the great question the country would be called ou to
solve was the labour question; and one of the reasons
which induced him to support the repeal of the naviga-
tion-laws was, that it would unfetter commerce, and
thereby open a field of employment to the working man.
He did not think much of the exceptions made by the Go-
' vernment—and perhaps they acted wisely in leaving the
coasting trade untouched. It would, at all events,
diminish- the alarm of the shipping interests. He saw
interest res to f the
ne reason why the shipping interests of this country could
emit compete with those of other countries, provided they
peepiwngln he thought,.
rqeudaulnder terms.iisaTdvt shipping
the rates of marine
ought to be removed. For instance, _
cmoeutntthryemlaobnoue
ought to be reduced.—
insurance were too high, and .
respecting apprentices
(Hear, hear.) The restrictionsitb.—(Hear, hear.) That
ought also to be done away
:tage and he believed that
would be a very great advantage,
_,e
b to leave that point
the effect of this measure
would
not see why the principle
entirely voluntary. He co
that people themselves were best able to manage their
own affairs should not be
well adopted
with respect to the
as with regard to all others.
shipping interest asevidence
of the American captains,
that they considered t
It appeared, from the
heir
navigation-laws injurious to
crippled the
freo action of English
vessels. He thought t
them, because they
ht much advantage would
be derived from a rednOtiOn of the light dues. No less
than 400,0001. was now
levied fo
(Hr
ear, light, when 90,00 was
0/.
hear.) He
would answer the purpose.
satisfied that the shipping the interest iteslf would have
reason to rejoice that
field of competition was thrown
open. The introduction of the raw material of their
was a
great advantage to the
manufactures duty free
measure was the fitting sccom-
country, and the
present
-trade policy of late years. The
paniment of their free
opposite complained that only
Hon. and Gallant Captainamined before the Committee.
one naval officer was
examined before the Committee.
He did not know why that was so; bat the officer who
He did not know why
James
Stirling) seemed to be
was examined paintedii. with the subject, and he (Mr.
thoroughly
heardacquainted
better evidence in his life than was
Hume) never
_lema,—(Hr hear.) As to man-
given by that n
ge
thoughtt it was a mistake to suppose
ning the navy he
would have an injurious effect. On
that this measure. eased the carrying trade of the
the contrary, if it increased
h Id have much greater
that we ou a
country, it was clear
number of seamen to rely upon in time of war than we
sent time. After expressing a
could have at the pre,
take
hope that her Majesty s Government would-
the
ty of stating what they intended to do
earliest opportuni
with the lighthouse and,
d other questions, he
concluded
should give this h' •
measure is cordial
by declaring that he
support.
Lord G. BENTINC
K could not thank the Govern-
menton of this measure; and h
for the introductione must
say that in all
his experience he had never heard
ll° great a change proposed on grounds so un-
tenable and so feebly supported. It was not pretended
that the country was petitioning for the change; that
the people were growing Mader tiny Minna by ;ea-
' 't • ••
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