The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-21 00:00:00

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, it was agreed that the House at its rising do
adjourn till Monday zest.
RAILWAY AMALGAMATION.
__ _

Mr. WILSON PATTEN gave notice that, on Monday, he
would move for a Select Committee to inquire whether railway
amalgamation were consistent with the commercial interests
of the•couritry.
Mr. It. YORKE asked the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, whether he could give any specific information in
respect to the return to England of Joseph Mason, who was
sentenced to twenty years' transportation at the York March
Assizes, in 1843, upon a conviction which turned out to have
been given in error, and which was established so to have been
given in December, 1845.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that a commission had been ape
pointed to inquire into the circumstances, and at first there
appeared no reason to he dissatisfied with the verdict. Subse-
quently information was given that an alibi could be proved.
The circumstances of that alibi were so strange, that it was
thought right to leave the evidence to the consideration of one
of the judges. The whole matter was therefore left to ►he
consideration of Mr. Justice Coleridge, and in consequence of
his decision a free pardon was sent out to Mason, who was now
en his return to England.
Mr. kV YSE wished to ask a question of the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Home Department (Sir Jas. Gra-
ham) with respect to education in Ireland. By the report of
the Commissioners of 1833 from the Board of National Edu-
cation in Ireland, he learned that it was a recommendation
on the part of that hoard that schools should be established
throughout the several districts of that country. During
the course of last session the Gas ernment gave a promise that
an Act of incorporation for the national education in Ireland
should be passed that House. He had therefore three ques-
tions to ask—first, as to whether any intention was entertained
of making an alteration in the constitution of the Board
of Education in Ireland, as was promised last session ;
Secondly, whether any measure was to be brought in for
giving effect to that alteration in the several towns mentioned
in the report ; and thirdly, whether there was any intention of
carrying out this recommendation in the way of the establish-
ment of schools in the agricultural districts?
S:r.JAMES GRAHAM was glad to have the satisfaction to
answer the Hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. Wyse), and
to say that a charter of incorporation was being prepared
for the National Board of Education in Ireland. In
reply to the second question, he was also able
to say that measures were in preparation for the establishment
of those sehnels to which the Hon. Member had alluded. And
in reply to the third question, he had to say that the Govern-
ment were as equally anxious to spread education through the
agricultural districts as through the municipal poputatiou ; but
it would depend upon the reports of the National 13oard of
Education in which way their efforts were to be directed.
CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL.

On the motion if the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the Con,ohilateil Foul Bill (8,000,000!.) reecired
third reading and passed.
BOARD OF EDUCATION—IRELAND.

Mr. WYSE moved that the charter of incorpora'ion
which the National Board of Education in Ireiai:d had been
incorporated should be laid upon the table.
THE OREGON TERRITORY.

Mr. PETER BORTHWICK rose to ask the Right lion.
the First Lord of the Treasury, whether it was the intention of
her Majesty's Government to present to this House copies or
extracts of any ccrrespondence which may have passed between
the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and her Majesty's
Minister at Washington, in relation to the Oregon territory.
It might be in the recollection of the House, that at the be-
ginning of the present session of Parliament her Majesty had,
from the throne, regretted that the conflicting claims of Great
Britain and the United States had not been satisfactorily settled,
although they had been made the subject of repeated negotiation.
Up to that mo,neitt the House and the country had yielded a
silent but entire confidence in the carrying out of that measure.
It was not his intention to disturb that silence, or to intimate in
the slightest degree a diminution of that, confidence. But it was
impossible to conceal the fact, that although that House appre-
ciated, and fully understood, the spirit in which her
Majesty's Ministers acted, yet, on the other side of
the Atlantic there did exist misguided and ignorant
persons, who put upon the words pronounced by her
Majesty from the throne, and the subsequent proceedings of her
i%lajesty's Government in that House, a construction which was
not intended to be produced. Blotter and bravado always
indicated timidity, and with feelings of bluster anti bravado had
the war party in America received the intimation which
had been given by this country. lie thought it was
time that England should distinctly declare her
views. He had preferred rather to put a question to
the Right Honourable Gentleman than make a motion
upon the subject, as he thought the subject its,lf
was not one to be discus,ed in a popular assembv.
Be had hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would, of his own
accord, recommend she production of such of these papers, or
extracts from them, as might be necessary to inform the
'louse of the nature of the negotiations which had taken place.
He would, therefore, simply ask the Right Hon. Gentleman
whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to
present to trio House those papers, or extracts from any cor-
respondence which passed between our Minister at Washington
and the Minister of the United States with ;elation to the
Oregon territory.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—Mr. Sp6aiter, I do not think it will
be necessary for me to make any observations with respect to
the general subject. to \AA the Right Hon. Gentleman has
alluded.—(Cheers.) I thick explanation wholly unnecessary
because I think the expressions of her Majesty's Government,
and other expressions used by public men in this and the
other House of Parliament, have not been misconstrued in
the United States.—(Hear, hear.) Ido dot think that
there would be any public advantage by laying the papers re-
ferred to on the table of the House in the present state of the
question—in the present state of the differences between this
country and the United States with respect to the Oregon
territory.—(Hear, hear.) 1 do not think that any ad-
vantage would arise ; and therefore it is not the inten-
tion of her Majesty's Government to make any such com-
munications at the present moment. At the same time I am
bound to say, that certain communications and certain notes
have passed between Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Pakenham, with
respect to the claims of the Government of the United States
to
the Oregon territory, although I should not have thought
itti,eneicces•sary to have. laid' these communications on the table of
the Lhut as it may perhaps be necessary to authenticate
b„, re t
an:es contained in them, and as publicity I-as
17 the.liv on theem—( Laughter)—l shall hare no objection to
table of the House.—( Cries of " No, no.")
1 e have no preposition to make to the Home, on the part
of the Government,
United States relative with
respect to the disputes with the
to that territory, because
the negotiations have
net
aim, anti because it is quite brought to a condu•
unusual to make such dis-
tdosures as those required Ithe
lGentleman until they
have been brought to a conclusion.—( ilear, hear.) But as
these communications have been madey
are authentic
and as the
House may wish to know whether the
if it is the wish of the House, I should have naouothblenett no tronloaty,
them on the table.
*Lord J. RUSSELL said, as• far as he was sone,.n a ,
did not wish for the production of the papers referredteo-'s,"tei
the Right Hon. Baronet could state that the negoliationsulesd
reached such a point at which it would be either satisfactory or
unsatisfactory to lay them on the table of the House. He, however,
thought that it should be left to the Right Hon. Gentleman to
produce them when be thought proper, because the public
service might suffer by their production during the continuance
of negotiations. He wished, however, before he concluded,
to refer to another subject. lie wished to ask a question of
the Right Hon. Baronet as to the course which be intended
to pursue with respect to the corn-laws. They bad now been
eight weeks assembled since her Majesty addressed her most
gracious speech from the throne with respect to
those laws. The Right Honourable Gentleman,
after the first statement of his measures, gave, I
think, a fortnight before any consideration of those measure s
should be brought before the House. They had now
been engaged three weeks in a preliminary dis-
cussion after the introduction of the Bill. Now, it did
seem to him that after so much discussion, and that after the
Right Honourable Gentleman had declared his intention
to go on with the discussion from day to day,
that great' and unnecessary delay hat Liken place.
He should have thought that that would have been the ease, but
he now found that it was his intention the first day after
the second reading of the Corn Bill to propose
the first reading of the Bill for protection to
life in Ireland. If he considered the former measure of such
great importance, he considered tl:at the latter Bill should
not have been rought forward till after the third reading
of the Corn Bill ; and he was of opinion that by the course
proposed no time would be gained. Ile wished, therefore, to
express a hope that the Right Honourable Gentleman,
the First
...Lord. of the Treasury, ,}would adhere , te, .
the arrangert4nt o:iginally proposed ; and, as 'sufficient
discussion had taken place on the Corn Bill to shield the
Right Hon. Gentleman from any charge of undue precipitancy

with regard to the measure, that he would proceed from day to
to-day with that Bill till it was finally disposed of, and postpone
till then any proceedings on the Bill for protection to life in
Ireland.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—I can assure the Noble Lord that I
never felt greater anxiety in my life with regard to any mea-
sure than Ido with respect to the corn-law. I have received
communications from different parts of the country, and from
parties adverse to the measure, praying that some decision
should be come to forthwith on the question of the corn-laws.
In the first place, it was to be desired on account of the state of
the crops in this country, that there should be free access to the
corn in bond, that it might be mixed with the corn in this
country fer seed;; and on that account, as well as on account of
the inconvenience in other respects which would result from
the delay, it would be desirable that this decision should be
come to as soon as possible. In the event of this Bill becoming
law, foreign corn would be admitted at a duty of 4s. per
quarter, instead of 18s., as at present, and under these circum-
stances of course no corn weu:d be taken out of bond till it was
definitely known what course would be pursued with respect to
the measure. In point of fact less corn had been sold
in those towns, the averages from which determine the
price of corn, than had been sold for some time previou-.
Besides, he had to observe, that the greatest inconvenience
was likely to arise to separate very important interests. As
for instance, with respect to the Custom Duties Bill, the
Treasury, in accordance with the established usage, had
directed the custom-house authorities to admit all articles in-
cluded in the tariff now before the House, at the reduced rates
of duty; a bond being taken from the importers to secure the
payment of the higher rate of duty in the event of the Bi!1
not passing the House. Under this regulation, all the linen,
woollen, and cotton fabrics, had been admitted, and all manu-
factures of that class were admitted at the present moment, and
he proposed to receive all other manufactures at the reduced
rate of 10!. per cent. Now, he was anxious to bring this
debate to as early a conclusion as possible, because the bonds
taken from the several parties at the reduced rate would
be much more likely of redemption ; and, possibly, great in-
convenience might be prevented, not only to the Government
but to the public at large. Under these circumstances he was
very anxious for the settlement of the reduction which the
Government had proposed on the importation of articles of
foreign produce. That ivas the first ground of his anxiety
for the conclusion of the discussion on the Corn Bill. Yet
he was bound to express the opinion of the Government upon
the great importance of the Bill sent down from the House of
Lords for the prevention of crime in Ireland, and which now
stood on the notice-book for a first reading. The course, then,
which he proposed to pursue was, to fix the second reading of
the Corn Bill for Monday next. The debate on that Bill
might very possibly terminate on Thursday, and in that case
he would fix the first reading of the Bill for the prevention of
assassination in Ireland for the Monday following. But as it
might possibly happen that the discussion on the Core Bill, as
anticipated by his friend to the right, might possibly terminate
before the Thursday, he would, in that case, fix the first read-
ing of the Irish Bill for Thursday. The only difficulty he ex-
perienced on that point was, that he should not then be en-
abled to give the usual notice on the books. But of this the
Noble Lord might be assured, that on a matter of so much im-
portance he would give all the notice which the circumstances
would allow, bo!h to the House and to the country, of his in-
tention to proceed with the Bill. He found that the debate on
the subject of railway termini in the metropolis had been ad-
journed, but on its resumption on Monday he would be pre-
pared to give the assent of her Majesty's Government to the
recommendation of the Commi' tee.—( Hear.)
THE ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the order of the day for going into Committee on the
Customs Bill being read,
The Marquis of WORCESTER said he would not occupy
the time of the House at any length by the observations he
should make in prefacing a resolution which he had to move.
Government was now going to place Baltic timber nearly an
the same footing as Canada, and what did the House think
would be the effect of such a step? Why, the Canadian
trade in timber was almost all in the hands of British mer-
chants, while the Baltic trade was carried on by Dan: s,
Swedes, and Prussians. Now, were they to legislate for the
foreigner in preference to the English? If they were, he
would ask how was the British shipowner, without protection,
to eentend against such odds as these? The Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Wolverhampton had said that a foreigner would
be surprised to see the course pursued by Hon. Members on
the Ministerial side of the House, but he (the Marquis of
Worcester) rather thought the foreigner would be more sur-
prised to see the course pursued by the Government, who were
removing the taxes on foreigners, and placing them on English-
men. —( Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. HINDE (who rose amidst loud cries of " Divide"
from the Opposition) said that he did expect that after the
Noble Lord had stated his objection to the proposition of her
Majesty's Government some Member sitting on the Treasury
benches would have arisen to offer some explanation of the
reasons which induced the Government to postpone this great
and startling alteration in the duties on timber. It could
hardly be that her Majesty's Government, in the great altera-
tions they were making, considered, that having established
the general principle of the reduction of duties, that timber,
as a matter of course, should be included in that reduction.
He would rather have deferred his remarks on this debate
until some explanation had been given by her Majesty's
Government, but he was unwilling to go to a division on this
great question without stating his own views upon IL He had
the misfortune to differ from her Majesty's Government on
almost every reduction of duty on the articles mentioned in
the tariff. He confessed that he viewed the scheme of her
Majesty's Government, formed, no doubt, with a good inten-
tion, with apprehension, for he was sure that it would be a
futile attempt to promote the general prosperity of this country
by inflicting injuries on individual interests.—(Hear, hear. )
Ile was aware that her Majesty's Government were proud
that on this occasion they were supported by certain ship-
owners in this kingdom. Ho did not know what importance
to attach to the opinions expressed by these shipowners,
when the same parties had on a former occasion
petitioned against the carrying of any such measure as the pre-
sent into effect. He knew that it might be that charge of
opinion and change of parties, without any cause assigned,
found favour in the eyes of her Majesty's Ministers, for "
feeling makes us wondrous kind." When he knew the
great importance attached to these petitions, he could not help
supposing that some sympathy of that kind existed between
her Majesty's Government and the petitioners. He was not
disposed to dispute the respect due to this kind of petition, but
the House would be snider a most erroneous impression if they
imagined that these gentlemen represented a large portion of
the ship-owners' interel. Ile would not venture to say what
was the general feeling of the shipping interest, as he would
say that the gentlemen petitioning the House in favour of the
alteration of duty formed far the smaller portion of the shipping
interest. This House and her Majesty's Government would be
led into a great error if they supposed that the ship-owners,
proposing an alteration of duty, had become disciple's of free
trade. They considered that they had been the first victims of
free trade in earlier years, and they now indulged in the feeling,
the not unnatural feeling, of thinking that the protection
which was denied to themselves should be withheld from
their fellow-subjects. He would now read two passages from
the petitions which were presented by the Right Honourable
Gentleman from the shipowners of Sunderland, and he did
l consider that the Right Honourable Baronet would have acted
much snore wisely if he had contented himself with simply
moving their reception, without having them printed, because
the reasoning of the petitioners was very much at variance with
the prayer of the petitions. They state that they have
been for many years unprotected in their intercourse
with other nations; they did not consider that it was
just to call on them to pay for the protection of others.
He would not justify this feeling, but it was very na-
tural. However, the shipowners were much deceived
if they considered that the landed interest maintained a protec-
tive duty on timber to serve their own interests. They sought
protection for the benefit of the shipowners themselves—and he
would state that he believed the shipowners had very recently
changed their opinions with reeard to protection, and that
the change which had come over them was more recent than
that of her Majesty's Government. In 1832 the vessels en-
tered inwards were—British, 1,930,846 tons; and foreign,
561.047 tons. In 1845, British vessels were 3,669,853 tons ;
and foreign vessels, 1,3t:3,735 tons. It was perfectly true that
there was a large increase in 13rit;sh tonnage, but it was not
so large as the increase on the foreign tonnage. The increase
in British ships was under 90 per cent., and the increase in
foreign ships was 140 per cent.—( Cheers.) The tonnage
cleared outwards was—in 1832, 1,637,(.93; and the foreign,
466,333. In 1815, British tonnage was 2,917,000; and
foreign, L 361,940. The increase in British was 1,310,0,0,
and in foreign tonnage 95,000. In British it was
80 per cent., but in foreign 193 per cent.—(Cheers.)
In the number of vessels carrying tonnage both inwards and
outwards ware included a very large amount of steam- vessels—
vessels which bore very little, it any, cargo at all • and the con-
sequence was, that a very undue proportion in the whole was
given to the number of vessels carrying cargo. He would
show by a number of figures the number of steam-vessels
which were included in the Government returns. In 1841, the
whole number of steam-vessels belonging to the United King-
dom in the Channel Isles was 791, the tonnage of which was
93,793, and in the same year there were entered inwards
17,318 veasels, whose tonnage was 3,234,800.—(Hear, hear.)
Now, he had adduced those few facts to prove this—that it
was not because the shipowners had flourished in consequence
of the free•tracle measures of the Government, that they had
petitioned the House to repeal the duties upon timber. Their
reason was, because they believed that the free-trade system
had already done its worst—(Protectionist cheers)—and that
by its more general application to every other class the injuries
which had been inflicted on themselves might be extended to
others. It was perfectly true that timber had cheapened by
the measures of her Majesty's Government. It had been shown
in a petition which he had the honour of presenting to that
House from the Shipowners' Society of London, that the
amount of duty paid on timber which had been used in ship-
budding formed nearly five per cent. of the entire amount
used in this country. He was aware that when he presented
that petition that it was met by a cheer. The meaning of
that cheer he perfectly understood to have been this, that the
shipowners were not benefited by having the duties on colonial
timber reduced. But he would say that it was a very serious
consideration to the people of this country whether they were
to do injury to persons holding large tracts of land in England,
and whether this country was to view with indignation the
prospect of another war, brought about by the conduct of thu
present Government, and which would, of course, deprive them
of a sufficient supply of timber ,which was se vital an element in
the commerce of this country. He did not hesitate to say, that
if her Majesty's Government reduced the discriminating
duties between British acd colonial timber, they
would entail an incalculable injury upon this country.
He (the Hon. Member) had heard, with much pleasure, the
sentiments of her Majesty's Government, with regard to their
determination to maintein a firm position with respect to the
Oregon territory ; but at the same lime he believed, that if the
measure then before the House were carried into law, they_'
might not alone get rid of the Oregon territory, but also make
a present of the Canadas.—(Hear, hear.) One would sup.
pose that the members ()flier Majesty's Government were di-
rected by a hostile feeling towards the colonies, and particu-
larly to the valuable colony of Canada.--( Hear, hear.) He
regretted that anti-colonial policy should be pursued by the
Government
; but on that subject he would not further in-
trudetitmg a on the House. However, he could not sit down without
pquestion to Hon. Members on the Ministerial side
of
the House, and he hoped to reFeive a frank. and candid an-
swer. His question was this--if they carried the principle
of free trade out to its f(uleaxrtenitt,aof what advantage would it
be to the colonies?—s„po
n o
cordialadvantage at He ed was of opinion that
taoll
the
e nmontinonthoaft
tghreouNndubhlee
witowulodulgdivbee
hoifs
Lord.—( Hear. )
Mr. CARDWELL said that his Hon. Friend who bad
just sat down commenced his observations by recommending
to the Government a course which he thought was
much batter than that they were adopting,—(He
With regard to the present measure now before Parliament,
and to the opinion which had been expressed in the petition to
which the lion. Gentleman referrredietnhderheodwarse a singular con-
fliction of opinions. His lion.
years
ago,
u,fieurrwesillituohaiit tti-
tion presented to that Howie some
I
of the duties under 301. per cent. -
been stated that their interests woult. b,4e,orwatnegidnbtyhtehceormedpnacrtisiooannd
Fwrhiieenhdhoapdpboeseitne,inasntiluttehdatinprtohreomseedasubyretp:reospoisinedi Ministers, he
isheHhoand.
o
monelaysutorerse_fer(
Cheers)—and
etrhs
_difference h
oo
wf popularity
respectbetween s
which
wasthe tw
en-
tertained for the measures proposed by her Majesty's Ministers,
and to those proposedley the party with which his Hon. Friend
generally acted. rn the petition which had been presented by
the shipowners in 1842, it had been asserted that in the event
of the reduetien of the duties under 25/. per cent. that
the whole of the timber trade would be transferred from the

British Colonies to the timber growing countries of the North
of Europe. But he remembered that the very same prophecy
had been made when the reduction of the duty of 30s. per load
was threatened some years previously, although at the time the
duction was made it was positively asserted that it would be
utterly destructive of the shipping interests. Now, he would
venture to put it as a fact worthy of illustration, and capable
of illustration in the House, whether the greater benefit derived
by the country had not been obtained through the instrumen-
tality of those who had thought fit to change their opinions
and support the, measures of the Right Honourable
Baronet at the head of the Government, or thoie who
remained under the effect of the conviction years ago,
netwithstauding all the eircum.tances which had occurred.
Why, what was the evidence on which the Government had
altered their opinion ? His lion. Friend said that the ship-
owners, having been made the victims of free-trade, had now
come forward to petition against the measure of the Govern-
ment, and referred to the petition for a proof of the opinions
which they entertained ; but from it it appeared that a gradual
increase had taken place in the number of tons exported into
this country ; in fact, during the last two or three years,
these exportations had increased more than a milllion of
tons. There had been a corresponding increase in the steam-
boat trade. Then, with respect to the Canadian tim-
ber trade, he quoted returns, to show that the reduction
. . .

of duties had increased the trade, and that shipowners had
consequently reaped a corresponding advantage.
The returns from Liverpool showed the same result, and
he could assure the House that the trade had increased since
the duties had fist been reduced. After a careful considera-
tion of all these facts, the Select Committee, w hich sat in 1835,
stated that it was their opinion that the difference of duty of
45 as compared with North American timber was too great,
and ought :o be reduced; and, that having a due regard to the
interest which had been created by the system of protection, a
reduction of the protective duty, not exceeding 153. a load,
might be made. If they considered the facts of the case,
Hon. Gentlemen might see that the same kinds of timber
were not employed for the same purposes; and by increasing
the demand for that used in constructing the larger por' ion of
hous's, they would increase the demand for the other kinds
of wood ; also for bricks, and other exciseable articles ; and,

above all, they would increase the demand for labour. And
he did consider that his Hon. Friends had, on very rational
conclusions, introduced the measure; for himself, he believed
that like causes would produce like effects, and he would ask
the House to agree to this proposition.

Mr. H. HINDE wisheefto know what would be the value o
the Canada! if they should establish a complete system of free
trade ?—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. A. CHAPMAN said that it was with the deepest feel-
ings of regret that he differed on this question from the Go-
vernment of the Right Hon. Gentleman ; and his object in
rising was, to draw the attention of the House to the injury
which might be inflicted by a transfer of the Canadian trade to
the Baltic. Timber had ever been considered as a fair subject
for taxation, and he very much feared that the proposed mea-
sure would be by no means beneficial to their shipping inte-
rest ; and he should bo exceedingly glad if he found his expec-
tation deceived, and if the benefits which had been stated by
her Majesty's Government should arise from the measure.
Captain HARRIS considered that if this measure received
the sanction of the House, it would inflict a lasting injury on
the service to which he belonged. He had before stated that
the tariff a the Right Hon. Gentleman had worked extremely
well, but he did believe that they had arrived on that tariff to
the minimum of protection which could be given by a paternal
Government.—( Hear, hear.) He had not been able to arrive
at the number of ships which were engaged in the channel
trade. If the Secretary of the Board of Trade was correct, the
number of vessels which were engaged in the trade with Canada
was 1,200, and the number of men ;employed 15,000. The
most of these ships made two trips in the season, and when he
commanded one of her Majesty's ships-of-war off that
station, he had no difficulty in procuring a supply
of from 200 to 300 men. This proved the great advantage
of keeping up the shipping trade between the two countries.
It had been stated that no petitions had been presented from
the colonies with regard to the present question. Now, he had
to state in reference to that, that they had no time to present a
petition on the subject. On the last occasion when the re-
duction took place on these duties, five petitions were presented
aginat the reduction from the Governor-General of Canada,
and twelve from New Brunswick. He would not detain the
House longer, but, believing that the measure would be ruin-
ous to the mercantile interest, he would give it his moat decided
opposition.
Mr. PALMER said that that was amongst the first interests
which were attacked by the mischievous measures of the Gr-
vernment. They would be pernicious to every interest, but
more especially to the shipping interest. So tar
from the reduction which had taken place bei
productive of benefit, he considered the effect was quite the
reverse. The Right Hon. Gentleman had taken all the respon-
sibility of these measures from first to last, and he had evinced
a determination to carry them into effect notwithstanding every
opposition. He could only say with regard to this measure
that some time since he recollected, when an Hon. Member,
now no more, had made a reference to it, and to the im-
portance which this country had attained under the naviga-
tion laws. es a reason why any interference with this question
should be well corpidered, the answer was, that the chances
then contemp'ated would not be injurious. He did net believe
that the Right Hon. Baronet wished to bring mischief upon the
interests of the country, but his raeasut es would certainly have
that effect. Whence, be would ask, was all this universal phi-
larehropy, that they should be called upon to cast away the
bread of their children? Was the time now come when the lion
should lie clown with the lamb? He was very much afraid that
the Noble Lord (Rtaetell) had only open-d the door to let in
the fox.—( Laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman, after alluding
to the evil consequences which would result from the reduction
of the silk duties, proceeded to say that in consequence of the
change in the navigation laws he eas obliged to sell ships at
5,000/., which cost him 20,0001. He hoped he would
not be considered as speaking personally offensive to the
Right Hon. Gentleman, when he stated his belief
that he was not acting in an ingenuous manner with either
that House or the country, with reference to his recent mea-
sures. The statement which the Right Hon. Baronet made
the other night was more like that of an advocate or a special
pleader, than of a great statesman. In 1820 the number of
vessels employed were 29,969 ; in 1840, 29,183; so that there
was an inerease merely of 6 per cent. He admitted there had
been a large increase in the tonnage, which probably might he
owing in some measure to the constructing of the vessels ; hut
how ships could only increase at the rate of 6 per cent. and
tonnage at the rate of 20 per cent., he could not tell. British
tonnage between this country and Norway, Sweden, Denmark,
and Russia, in 1806, amounted to 107,118 tons, and in 1844 to
130,100 tons, which showed an increase of 20 per cent., not-
withstanding the increase in the price of timber. The ton-
nage of the Foreign trade in 1826, was 65,564 tons, while in
1844 it amounted to 528,722 tons, showing an inc•ease of 8.50
per cent. During the last two or three years the British ship-
ping to the Baltic amounted to 109,000 tons, and in 1844 to
130,0e0 tons. Foreign ships during the same periods respect-
ively amounted to 341,553 and 528,722 tons. The amount of
the timber which, during last year, went into the pocket of the
foreigner, was 1,533,00r.1 That was the account he literally
received ; while the Canadians received Is. 6d. a load less
than they did before. The present measure would still fur-
ther affect the British shipping. The freight to Canada was
31s. a load, while that to the Baltic was only 14s. It was now
215., but the usual rate was 14e., so that they could not take
the difference between Baltic and Canadian freightage at less
than 14s. per load, It might be said that the Baltic timber
was preferable to the Canadian (Hear, hear)—
but he considered that that advantage, even if it were
admitted, would not counterbalance the evils which would re-
sult if the reduction of the present protection were carried into
effect. He admitted, however, that better seamen would be
made by a trip to the Baltic, exposed to the vicissitudes of the
North Sea, than by a voyage across the Atlantic. It had been
said that different petitions were presented from shipowners in
this country in favour of the present reduction. He did not
know who all the parties were, but he knew some of them.
He knew three names which were attached to the petition pre-
sented from London, and he could undertake to say that they,
at least, were not engaged in general shipping. One of them
was connected with the West India trade, another was en-
gaged in the colonial trade, and they were all strong partisans.
Their testimony, therefore, in favour of the pre-
sent measure, could not be considered uninterested.
There was no doubt the Right Hon. Baronet was perfectly
satisfied that what he proposed was for the good of the country;
so far he had perfect confidence in him, but he, notwithstand-
ing, could not help stating his belief that the Right Hon. Gen•
tleman was in error. Ile was at a loss to know what benefit
this country would derive from such a measure. He could only
find it likely to benefit foreigners. It was a measure erabr4c-
ing the grand principle of free trade as proposed by her Me-
jestey's Ministers—it was a measure which called upon that
House to withdraw all protection from the trade of this country
—to withdraw as it were the protection of the parent from the
child. He could understand the principle of free trade in this
country, so far as it allowed a reciprocity of trade amongst
themselves, but he could not agree to a stem which gave all
the benefit to foreigners at the expense of the people of Eng-
land. He could not agree to a principle which gave to Prus-
sia a right to trade to all our ports, when Prussia herself was
so jealous of her own interests as to refuse anything like
a reciprocity of the benefits conferred upon her.
Mr. WARBURTON said it was well known that he was
not then engaged in the shipping trade, although ho at one
time had been interested in it. Between 1841 and 1842, the
shipping trade of this country was greatly interested in the tim-
ber-trade, and at that period they were not contented with having
a differental duty of 455., they contrived to have the duties so
altered as to give the advantage to the European trade. At
that time the seven-inch deal was charged at as high a duty as
timber of considerably larger dimensions. In 1842, however,
the duty was reduced, and taking the averages of the timber
imported since that year, it was found that the colonial timbre
had not been reduced in value, notwithstanding that the duty
on foreign importation was reduced from 455. to 255. lie
feared that the impartation of colonial timbers had increased
to the amount. of 30, while the foreign had increased 20 per
cent ; and in the year 1845 the colonial timbers had increased
17 per cent. over that of foreign timber. But this increase
did not apply to one sort of timber alone—it would be found to
be highly favourable to all qualities. Was it then to be said
that while so many improvements were going on in this
country, so many railwas and other constructions as were
taking place, the Government were to allow them to stand
still, and so much timber abroad, which was required for the
benefit of this country ?—(Hear, hear.) Were they to allow
the colonial timber to be raised to en exorbitant price by
the continuance of high duties?—( hear, hear.) The Go-
vernment had done their duty in proposing an alteration of
this system, and he would say that the Legislature would be
highly wrong if they were to oppose the present measure. The
rise of the trade in American timber must be dated from its
Iwo expeditions to Copenhagen. Before then there was not a
Norwegian naval captain who did not wear on his breast the
medals received fur their services to this country.— Hear,
hear.) Since then, however, the interests of the Norwe-
gians were mixed up with the trade of foreign countries,
and more especially with France, a country so great in her
naval armaments. With the finest ports in the world on the
Norwegian coasts, and so close to the Baltic, it behoved them
to consider before they would place a bann upon their trade—it
behoved them to consider whether it was a wise policy to allow
the Norwegians to become so closely connected with France.
Should a war take place between this country and France—not
that he apprehended any such calamity—but still such was not
unlikely, in all human probability. Was it, he would say, a
wise policy, that a country with so great a navy, and a country
which was continually increasing her naval powers, should allow
her to have all the timber trade of the Baltic to herself. If this
system was to be continued, they could not reckon upon the
support of the Norwegian seamen at a time of war, for their
sympathies would be with another power. Ho again begged to
be understood that he did not think that they would have re-
course to war, but that, if they did, the result would he what he
had stated, namely, the loss of the services of some of the most
experienced seamen which this country could wish for at a time
of need. He was very glad to find that they
were going to restore the trade of Norway by the
measures proposed by her Majesty's Government.
Twlthauyenriewaw.ouoelrrdeo,tohattehreornerrrectauismmoendsaonrwhy the Government of this country
should encourage the trade of Norway. It might be that Nor-
impass
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measure, and would give it his cordial support.
Mr..P. BORT HWICK .said he concurred with -the .Hone-1
Member opposite that there were political as well as commercial
reasons for this country keeping up its connexion with Norway;
but he would contend for it that there were reasons equally