The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-19 00:00:00

I thought it a pity that some of the law officers of the 1
Crown—the Solicitor-General, for instance—should not
I be present, to set the House right when they were at a
loss about statutes.—(Hear.) What he charged the Go-
vernnient with was this—that they passed a measure as
general measure, the last clause of which must tie in ended
by them for the peculiar and specific protection of one
class of individuals. That 'was his allegation. Did the
Bill not refer to the Act 27 Geo. 111. ? It did. [Mr
Stanley here rose to make some observation, when Mr.
Sheil exclaimed, " Now, don't be angry."3—(A laugh.)
Did the Bill refer to the 11th clause of that Act ? It did.
Did not that Act refer to tithes?—lt did.—(Hear.)
Did net. therefote, an Act, which embodied the whole of
the provisions of that section of the 27th Geo. 111. refer
to tithes ? And wis it not intended for the protection of
the clergy ?—(CI eers,) He did not ask the Ministers
not to deceive them ; but he asked them not to deceive
themselves, by imagining that they (the Irish) could be-
lieve that a Bill, which embodied the whole provisions of
an Act which referred entirely to tithes, was not intended
for the protection of the clergy alone, and to enable them
to earn., the payment of those tithes.
Mr. STANLEY said that, as he before stated, the Bill
was not intended for the protection of tithes exclusively,
thoueh of course ti hes would meet with the protection
which would be extended to other property. He would
rep at, that a measure was about to be brought forward l's
his 51 ijetity's G v.-foment, for the purpose of putting
tith.s on a footing which he hoped would be satisfactory
to alt patties.
Mi. O'CONNELL s 'id, this was emphatically a Tithe
Bill—it was intended for the protection or tithe•property
principally, Hied exclusively ; for the only protection Riven
by it to landed property in general was, that off nces com-
mitted avainst it may he tried before a courtmartial. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman tin n adverted to the 11th
section of the 27th George 111., which imposes the pu-
nishment of implis"nment and whipping—no; the whip-
ping had been emitted afterwards, as some dissatisfaction
had been exhibited, that a courtmartial should have it in
their power to inflict whipping on any person convicted of
doing any thing to defraud a clergyman of his dues ; but
the re was no mention made of bringing questions of frauds
on property in general before the courtsmartial.
Lord ALTHORP said, the section alluded to was not
[ directed against any one person fur an individual fraud
on the clergyman of his tithes, but against persons who
entered into illegal combinations against tithes in general.
or to offer any obstacles to clergymen in the free disposal
of their property. The only possible way in which a
man could come within the operation of the clause, would
be the entering into such a combination. No individual
simple act of fraud could implicate him, and he would
defy the Hon. and Learned Member to produce any in-
stance to the contrary.
311.. O'CONNELL was not singular in his construction
of this clause. Many of the crown nfficers—among others
Mr. Barrington, the crown solicitor for Munster—had
acted upon this construction. It had been considered that
any kind of obstacle or obstruction in the way of the cler-
gyman—whether individual or congregate—was unlawful.
That gentleman's own evidence would show distinctly
(and this curie from an Officer of the Crown) his opinion,
that the doing any act to defraud a clergyman of, or pre-
vent him from raisin g Iris tithes, is a misdemeanor, and
punishable accordingly. Tne present Bill now was
wholly a Tithe Bill ; and if not applied in the protection
of tithe property it would be a dead letter; if it were ap•
plied to such purposi-a it would be a living letter—a letter
writ en in char icters of blood.
Lord ALTHORP denied that any person had been so
punished ter the niere personal fraud of tithe.
Mr. O'CONNELL instituted some parallel, as far as we
could understand, with reference to the Quakers, who, for
150 years, had persisted in their refusal to pay tithe.
The CHAIRMAN would recall the attention of the
House, which appeared to him to be wandering from the
point, to the clause tinder discussion. He would, there-
lore, read that clause, " And be it enacted, &c., with the
telvice of his Majesty's Privy Council is Ireland."
Mr. BARRON moved, as an amendment, that, after
the woids "in Ireland," there should be inserted these
words : " And on the representation of the County Lieu-
tenant, and of six Magistrates of any county, county of a
city, or county of a town, of such a state tif disorganization
and distut bance existing therein, as renders the operation
of this A t necessety."
Lord ALTHORP did not see that the clause would be
any way improved by the proposed amendment.
Air. 0 CW.NELL doubted whether it would not make
the clause worse than it was.
Mr. BARRON thought the addition of the proposed
words essential.
Mr. H. GRATTAN concurred. He should suggest
that the whole body of County Magistrates should be called
a•dg.4eitvter that the reselutione
truistnitted to the Lord-Lieutenant, who could
ac-
cordingly.
Co onel PERCE VAL observed that there was no County
Littnen nt in Siige.
At, Hoer. 111 EMBER explained that the Lieutenant for
that c.itity lived on the boiders of ir.
Mr. BARRON matte some observations as to the fal-
lat y of sating that there was any obstruction in the course
or pu ire justice in Ireland from inability to secure offend-
ers, or pet duce witnesses or prosecutors. As an instance,
there had been a dieadful murder committed only a fee
days ago in Ross—that of the late Mr. Leonard. Why,
there were already thirty urea in gaol charged will the
murder : these bad been all secured by the exertions of
by, hundred of be town-people, who had brought the
whole of them in wi bout the assistance of the pace.
The amendment having been withdrawn (as far as we
could under-tend)—

The CHAIRMAN proceeded to read the clause, which
elici ed an oh.ervation tram Mr. F. O'CoisNox.
Mr. STANLEY explained, that couitsinartial would
nut he instauted even in proclaimed counties, till the
L. rd-Lieuten int found the ordinary course of the Lw ab-
solutely inefficscious.

Air 11. GRATTAN repeated, that such frightful out-
rages as would infallibly t ke place in a district plociaimed
night to be a warning against proclamation on the mere
staiensent of any one or tw•o persons. Nothing but the
wrong representations of the mist responsible persons in a
district 8, uu d authorize its proclamation.
Toe CHAIRMAN proceeded as far as the words
" county of a city."

Mr. tiHEIL Protested against such an extension o
terse po Wel S.

Air. ROCHE thought that the sense of the county at
large ought to be taken before proclamation was instirnt. d
Mr. STANLEY bai.l, there was one good reason why
the suggestion of the Hon. and Learned Member should
not be agreed to. Suppose a county of a city extended to
a large agricultural population in a county which was pro-
claimed, it seemed to him most unwise to exempt the city
jurisdiction trout the operation of the law. Such a juris-
diction ought not to be exempted.
Mr. FINN said, that the county of the city of Kil-
kenny had such a jurisdiction ; and on a former occasion
the Marquis of Wellesley had not placed that jurisdiction
unlit r the Insurrection Act.

Mr. STANLEY ,hankel the Hon. Gentleman for re-
minding him and the House that it was the Marquis of
Wellesley, and not the Legislature, which exempted the
district in question Irons the operation of the Act. Might
not the Marquis of Anglesea act in the same manner as the
Marquis of Wellesley ? Tne Legislature had left it in that
case to the discretion of the Lord Lieutenant, and why not
in this?

Mr. O'CONNELL said, it did not fidlocv because one
Lord Lieutenant was considerate and humane, that another
would be. It was for the Legislature to prescribe, and not
to trust.

Mr. HENRY GRATTAN protested against the clause,
as establishing a perpetual Dictator in Ireland. It was a
premium for agitation. It gave the Dictator power to
proclaim any district, and it would enable agitators to
procure any district to be proclaimed, and thus gave such
agitators a power over every individual in it. After pass-
ing this clause, it would be better for the Irish Gentle-

men to vacate their seats and go home.—(Cheers.) The
Government knew nothing of the state of Ireland ; and

he knew the Right Hon Secretary too well to be deluded

or de:eived by him. lie said that the whole Act and the
whole conduct of the Government betrayed the grossest ig_

norance as to the state of Ireland. If the Right Hon.
Secretary had applied himself to the business of his office,
lie migat hive put down disturbance.—(Cheers.) Yes,
if he had done duty, there mig' t have been an end v.

'utrage. But he knew what the Right Hon. Secretary

was about : he was sending his lancers and his dragoon,
to collect tithe-pigs and tithe-pence, and he knew nAliink

of the di.turbaric,s ill they bad got to a great height.—
(Hear.) There never way en individual went to Ireland
with such powers to do good, and there never was an in-

dividu i 1 who had done so little. The Right Hun. Secretary
Duty found that every one of his measures was a coal-

plete failure; he found that Lis Ti: he Bill eauld not b,

nforced; that it was good for nothing; and he called

upon that Hume to stpiend the liberties of Ireland, and

place that country under a perpetual dictatorship.
after the trial, they would try Ireland once more—if they
would spare her this additional cume, and withdraw the
Right Hon. SeereViry and his Bill for the forcible collec-
;ion of tithes, the disturbances would cease, and peace and
tranquillity would be restored to the country. He con-
jured them to pause..to suspend this clause till alter the

other clauses were gone through, when some form of
words might he found which would render it more definite
and less ohnoxinme
Colonel PERCEVAL objected to making any distinction
between the jurisdiction of counties of cities and other die.
trios, and supeornd the clause.
Mr. O'CONNELL would, at the proper time, move to
exempt the jurisdiction of the county of the city of Dublin
from the operation oaf this clause.
Mr. D ROCHE -would take the same course as to
Limerick.
Mr. LYNCH moved a similar amendment as to Galway.
Mr. O'DWYER con-ended, that the power given by
this clause was of itself calculated to throw the whole
country into confusion, and to creete general disturbance.
Dr. BALDWIN would seriously ask the Government
if it meant to extend this clause to the cities of Dubin,
Cork, Limerick, and other towns? Would the Govern-
ment prevent men from going about their businase, aid
compel them to remain at home alter dark? Why, it
would prevent them from transacting their ordinary affairs.
If any man were to plan a measure to restrain liberty,
destroy the interests of industry. and ruin the property and
revenue of the country, he could not plan a more effectual
measure than this.
Mr. LALOR referred to six cases which had happened
•
in the Queen'. County, in which men had been dietrained
on for tithes who did not hold one acre of land each. He
knew that personally ; and yet the Right Hon. Secretary
said that nobody had been ditto ained on for tithee,•exceat
such as were well able to pay. The assert on of the Right
Hon. S-cretary showed that he knew very little about
Ireland.
Mr. LYNCH moved a verbal amendment to the clause,
which w so adopted.
Mr. LAMBERT then rose to move an amendment to
the end of the clause. He had given his assent to the Bill
because of the outtaues and agitation, which must he put
an end to. He had seen nothing lately to make him tortn
a different opinion. On the contrary, he had lately reed
a letter front tine of the agitators, which had been pub-
lished in a j 'urnal in the county with which he. Was
connected, which called on the people of Wexford to wreak
their vengeance on his Hon. Colleague and his children
for the vote he had given in that House.—(Hear, hear.)
He must still support the Bill; but he biped it would be
so modified as only to suppress outrage and put down the
system of agitation. If so modified, he should give it
his support at the third reading. As the Bill now stood,
it was difficult not to conceive it to apply to the collection of
tithes. The Bill of 1831, which had transferred the rights
of the tithe.owners and the odiuin of collecting tithes to
the Government—the Bill for forcibly collecting tithes of
last session had, as was foretold at the time, signally
fail. d, th..ugli Government had used all its means and
exerted all its powers in endeavouring to enforce it. The
police, though contrary to the Act creating it, had been
employed to collect tithes, or at least to protect those who
were collecting and valuing tithes. The army, too, bad
been brought out, and that was a most perilous experi-
ment. In one case, when the soldiers hail been employed
to enforce the collection of tithes from a poor man's po-
tante field, they had said that they could not hear it, and
they had clubbed together to pay the tithes for the man.—
(Hear, hear.) The Biil had increased the danger and
had greatly extended the disappointment of the people.
He bad in lois possession a petition which described
these effects, and which said that there were many per-
sons but too willing to profit by the discontent of the
people. There were some clergymen too, who were not
averse from profiting by thus compulsory tithe Bill to
create disturbance. For a time the operation of the Act
had been suspended—the war had been stayed—but the
campaign had been again begun.
" The war which for a space did fall,
Now trebly thundering swells the gale.
And Stanley is the cry!"
The Right Hon. Gentleman was the heir to a great name
—noble blood flowed in his veins—and he hope) that the
generous, the chivalrous feelings which belonged to high
birth and noble descent, would induce the Right Hon.
Gentleman to listen to the appeal which he made. He
believed that the amendment lie meant to propose would
tranquillize the country. It would not, indeed, render the
measure palatable to the people; it was not palatable to
himself, except as it was absolutely necessary on account
of the agitation and outrages. He had received letters
from several persons in the county he represented, who
stated that some measure of this kind was most neces-
sary. The Hon. Member concluded by proposing to add
to the end of the clause a proviso to the effect—" Pro-
vided always, and be it enacted, that it shall not be lawful
for the Lord-Lieutenant, or any Chief Governor or Go-
vernors of Ireland, to apply the provisions of this Act to
any county or district, merely because the tithes are not
paid in that county or district ; nor shall this Act be at
any time applied, in any manner whatever, to the levying
...Imes, or to enforce the payment thereof."
Tr...• lo At A LA, .et.ontieds the amendment. After
the promise wade by the Nettle Lord (Alt horp), that tee
Act should not be extended to the levying of tithes, he
could not conceive what possible obj -c ion could be offered
to the amendment now proposed. Teis witule mace if
quite clear what was intended, which was doubtful as the
Bill was now drawn. If they referred to the 27th
George 111. they would see that it oily applied to the
collection of tithes. On looking to that clause they would
see that the present Bill could not be interpreted in any
other way than as a BB for collecting tithes. If it
were admitted that it was not intended to apply this Bi.l
to the coil- ction of tithes, except steps were taken to die-
hide any person frown collecting tithes, he did not see why
they should not express such ti thing in the Bill. He
thought the Nettle Lord was bound in honour to place a
limitation on the Bill as tar as not aeplying it to enforce
the cull. ction of tithes. He believed that the Noble Lord
was disposed to pet form his promise.; but it. the Nettle
Lord left the clause as it still stand, he rhould consider it
a direct bre .clt of the Nodule Lord's promise.
Lord ALTHORP did not take any objection to the
first part of tote amendment. He dud not wish that par,
of the Bill which was directed against outrages to be ap-
plied to the non paytnent of tithes. With respect to the
latter part of the amendment he felt some doubt. Ile
could state that it was not really intended to apply the
Bill as his Hon. Ftiend inteipreted. His Hon. Friend
had spoken of the llth clause of the 27th Geo. 111. That
clause, as he had already stated, did not apply to anything
but a forcible obstruction to levying tithes, and court nor,
therefore, be made to apply to any hing which a civil
court could settle. If outrages grew out of the tithe sys-
tem—if (obstructions were practised and persons injured,
ten the outrage- would fall wider this Bill. The clause

of the 27tb Geo. 111. referred to forcible obstructiomt,

and could not he inaoe to apply to mei ely civil processes.
He did not, therefore, see the necessity of the limitation
He was ready to say, as he had already said, that if he
thought it were possible that this Bill could be applied in
the manner proposed—to the levying and collection o:
tithes—he, agreeably to his promise at its first introduc-
tion, would he ready to agree to the clause; but he did
not think the Bill could be so interpreted. If the effect
of the amendment were, or might be interpreted, to do
away enterely with the application of the powers of this
Act to offences connected with resi,tance to the payment
of tithes by combination, force, or violent (distinction,
then he should most certainly object to the amendment.
It was said, that under the 27th Geo. 111., the refusal to

- -
pay tithes was already a misdemeanor. He did not, how-
ever, consider that to be the case; and he had asked
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman opposite
whether since that Act was pas-ed, he knew any single
instance of an individual being convicted of a misdemeanor
for refusing payment of tithes ? The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman answered in the negative, but he said he did
not know how far the judgment of the judges might carry
them. For forty-six yeats, therefore, no such case had
occurred. As far, however, as conspiracies to prevent
the payment of tithes were concerned, he thought this
Bill ought to apply to prevent illegal combinations.
( Hear.) It could not be applied for the purpose of aiding
justice, except when some violent or forcible obstruction
was opposed to the payment of tithes.—(H,ar, heat.)
To the earlier part of the provision proposed by his Hon.
Friend, he had no objection—be meant that part which
went to prevent the Lord-Lieutenant Irons applying the
powers of this Bill to any district, merely because tithes
,'ere not paid there. To the latter part, however, lie
objected for fear of misconstruction, as he conceived the
present Bill ought to be applicable in all cases of forcible
esistance to the collection of tithe.—(Hear, heir.)
Mr. O'CONNELL—The Noble Lord did not object to
the first part of the amendment, but he feared it was only
becaure, if agreed to, it would be found to be inoperative
It was true that he knew no instance of a mere refusal to
pay tithes having been dealt with as a misdemeanor ; hut
he knew several cases where a distress had been issued, it
a refusal to the bailiff to enter upon the land, or of saying
to bun, "You shall not take nay corn," might be con-
sidered. The Noble Lord might imagine that this Act
could nut he applied to the collection of tithes, but if be
left the 27th of George the Third to be interpreted against
them, he would assuredly find himself mist iken.
Mr. LEFROY implored the Noble Lord not to intro•

Ince any unnecessary saving or exception :into the clause,
is the Irish people would be sure to interpret it as a license
r permis ion to resist the payment of tithes.—( Hear.)
Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSzt.;ON contended that the 27th
Geo. 111. should be excepted, because the eleventh section
,night be applied to combinations not to pay tithes.
Mr, WARBURTON wished to ask a question, whether

an agreement not to purchase the goods effected at the dif-
ferent tithe sales which had taken place had not been
considered to be an unlawful conspiracy ?—(Hear.) If
iin, then what breathe of the reasons of the Noble Lord
opposite (Althorp), who maintained that the Act was
only to he applied to cases of violence and force? If the
Noble Lord was sincere in this desire, the only mode of
obtaining it was to except the eleventh section of the 27th
Gen. 111
Mr. FINCH certainly thought this Bill ought to be
used as little as possible for the collection of tithes ; but if,
in consequ• nee of such co'leclion, any outrage ensued,
then be considered it might fairly be applied. It would
almost seem, horn the discussion on this and former even-
ings, that to enforce the legal claim of tithe was contrary
both to rquity and law. —(Hear.) It was quite a mistake
to imagine that the opposition to tithes sprung mainly
from the distressed state of the poor of Leland. The
evidence of Dr. Doyle, where he boasted of having com-
menced the opposition, proved that it had a very different

souice.
Mr. PRYME said, the clergy, if tithe offences were
excepted from this Act, would still have the power- of
pr ,secuting tithe offenders under the numerous other Acts
in existenee. They all knew how difficult the most dis-
tinguished lawyers had found it to define what was ~n
illegal combination ; and yet this difficult question they
were about to leave to the decision of a coortmartial.—
(Cheers.) He thought the II th clause of the Act re-
ferred to should be excluded, and that the clergy should
stand in the same situation as the landlords.
Mr. SHAW—There could be no doubt that a conspi-
racy against the payment of tithes watt a misdemeanor
punishable at taw, and that it would be punished even if
the clause were excepted; but such an exception would
have a string tend- ney to encourage the deluded people in
their resistance. He did not object to a restriction in the
Act to prevent its being applie 1 to the enforcement of
civil claims; hut why should the claims of the clergy be
specifically pointed out? Let the language tie sufficiently
extensive to include those claims ; but he objected to
naming the clergy as invidious, and likely to encourage
resistance to the payment of tithe. For the last three
years nearly, the clergy of Ireland had been unable to
obtain payment of their tithe.—(oh !) He had moved
for returns which he hoped would be laid on the table of
the House in a few days, which would prove that on the
average of the last three years this was the fact.
Mt. STANLEY was sure that the Hon. Member for
Wexford, in bringing forward the amendment, had no
other object in view than that of promoting the peace of
his country, and causing it to promote as little excitement
as was consistent with its efficacy. He trusted also that
the Hon. Gentleman would do him the justice to believe,
that he was animated by a similar motive. He wished
the Hon. Gentleman bad postponed the introduction of
the amendment till they came to the clause relating to the
courtsmartial, to which it more properly belonged.
However, as they had proceeded thus far in the discussion
it would certainly be more convenient that they should
now come to some understanding. He agreed with his
Noble Friend, who stated that it was by no means the in-
tention or wish of his Majesty's Government to apply the
Act to the enforcement of any civil process for the levying
of tithes.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time he was ex
ceedingly anxious that no clause of this Bill should, as the
Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin
had suggested, have the appearance of making any distinc-
tion between the clergy and others. The 27th George
111. contained several provisions for the protection of this
particular species of property. The 11th douse might he
said to refer to two distinct classes of offences—first to civil
offences—if be might use the term—to conspiracy and corn-
b.nation merely ; secondly, to a resistance to a legal
right, accompanied hy violence or outrage. He wished,
if possible, without taking away the protection given by
the 27th Geo. 111., against the first class of offences,
to introduce smile words to show that the powers given
by this Act were only to be directed against the latter
ciass of offences—namely, those accompanied with violence
and outrage.—(Cheers.) If the Hon. Member for Wex•
ford concurred in this, and from his cheers he hoped be
(lid, he had drawn out some words which he proposed
to introduce after the 17th clause, which related to the
powers to be confided to courtsmartial ; the words, if not
fund sufficient, might be altered before they arrived at
that stage; but as he had at present drawn it, he should
propose this clause—" Provided nothing herein contained
shall authorize such courtmartial to try any person
charged under any of the aforesaid Acts with any confe-
deracy or combination, unless accompanied with violence
or threats."—(Cheers.) As to the first part of the
amendment, there could be no objection to it ; but he
did not see how it could afford greater security than the
pledge of the Government, that no district. should be pro-
ciaimed merely b cause tithes were not paid.
Mr. J. GRATTAN b lieved that the Gee,..e,..e,
oe lipped to the colleetine
• tithes ; but he contended that from its very nature it
would he .pplied, either directly or indirecly, to the en-
, foi cement of that claim. He hoped his Hon. Friend on the
suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, would withdraw
his amendment, and deer the consideration of this part of
the subjcct till they arrived at the seventeenth clause.
Mt. SHELL commen ed up.in the opinions. expressed
by the Hoe. and Learned Member for the University of
Dublin. He con ended that the clause ought to be so
guarded as to put the application of is to the objects
up ken of entirely out of the question. The Chancellor
or the Exchequer had stated that he had no injection to
one-half of the amendment. The Hon. and Learned
Member then made some oliservatione, as we under-
stood, relative to the remarks of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer.
Mi. S I'ANLEY explained that the machinery of the
Bill would not be employed to assist in the collection of
te hes, an i that there was no ohjecti.in on the part of the
Government to an amendment to the effect, that it should
not be has ful for the Lord Lii,utenant to declare any di.-
t' ict in a state of disturbance merely on account of a r--
finial of tithes—an amendment which he considered suf
ficient to meet the objections which had b en made to
the clause.
Mr. SHELL dissented from the explanations which the
Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had given of the ex-
presaiano of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Lord ALTHORP explained that his meaning was, that
no district should be proclaimed merely because tithes
we, refused.

Mr. SHEIL must he mistaken if he had put a wrong
interpretation on the word. of the Noble Lord. He had
considered that the NAle Lord meant that courtsmartial
ihould not take cognizance of charges relative to the col.
. .

lectiun of tithes only, when the offences were not accom-
pin ed by force and violence. What he submitted was,
that the 11th section of the 27th George 111. created a
species of offence which would not be excluded by that
amendment—viz., a combination to refuse the payment of
tithes. In the course which 111,nisters pursued, they de-
parted from the exatnple of those who brought forward
tomer Insurrection A. ts; for they mentioned the offences
against which they .ere directed, and the Statutes which
referred to these offence.. Unhes the cases to which the
27th Geo. 111. would apply were,iexptess'y exclud d such
cases would he intruded in the provisions o' this litl/.
Mr. Sergeant PERRIN would support the amendment.
His only obj.ct was that the explanations of Aliaisttrs
might be embodied in the Bill.
Mr. LAMBERT would be quite satisfied if all offences
mere exempted from the jurisdiction of courtsioartial, ex-
cept such as were accompanied with violence ; and he
agreed to make an alteration in hi. motion.

Lord ALTHORP—If he had expressed himself wrong,
could only say now what he really me int.
Mr. WARBURTON—He only roce to say that the
Act 27 George 111., relative to confederacies and corn-
hmation4, would enable Ministers to apply the measure
proposed to cases to which it ought not to be applied, al-
though these ca-es might not be accompanied by violence.
Mr. SHAW made a few remarks.
The question was then put on the amendment altered
as follows :—" Provided always and be it enacted, that
it shall not be lawful for the Lord Lieutenant or other
Chief Governor of Ireland to apply the provisions of this
Act to any county or district, mere'y because tithes had
peen refused."

The House divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority
O❑ our re•admisssion, we found the Conunittee engaged
in discussing the next clause, and
Mr. O'CONNELL caressing an earnest wish, that
such an addition should be made to the clause as would
give the public the means of ascertaining whether it was
wise or expetti,nt that any district proclaimed under the
Act should be brought within its operation. He wished
that it should be imperative upon the Lord Lieutenant
to give public notice i❑ the newspapers on the subject ;
and further, that the Lord-Lieutenant should, with re-
spect to any proclaimed district, be bound to lay before
Parliament, if sitting, an account of all felonies within
two or three months, at the selection of the Government,
committed within such district. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman then moved an amendment to that effect.
Lord ALTHORP objected to the amendment as unne-
cetsary, and said, that if it should be suspected in that
House or among the public, that a county bad been im-
properly proclaimed, any gentleman might move for the
return of which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
spoken, and thus gain all the information that was desired.
Sir B. PEEL observed, that if the Hon. and Learned

Gentleman had drawn this amendment after the last part
of the last clause had been agreed to, he would probably
have added a sentence, calling on the Lord Lieutenant to
declare that he had not proclaimed a county for non-pay-
ment or refusal of payment of rent, county craw, or paro-
chial rates. This was rendered necessary by the:construction
of the last clause, which declared that the Lord Lieutenant
should not proclaim a county " merely for the non-
payment of tithes." As he was not to make proclamation
for such a reason "merely," it followed of course by im-
plication, that he might do so for other c ruses. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman must certainly mean to
impose on the Lord Lieutenant the same restriction with
regard to rent and county cess as that now imposed on him
with regard to tithes, and the amendment should be
altered accordingly.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that if he were in the vein for
pleasantry, he should certainly adopt the suggestion of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, but he was not—the matter was
too serious for him. He had certainly voted for the last
amendment, which he must admit was as nonsensical as
any be had ever supported.—(Laughter.) It did not,
however, bear the meaning put on it by the Right Hon.
Baronet. He should certainly divide the Committee upon
his amendment.

Tiie ea lery was cleared for a division, when the num.
berg app are.. t
For the Amendment 77

Against it 215
Majority against the Amendment...-158
It wpis then moved that the filth clause do stand part cc
the Bill.—Agreed to.

On the sixth clause being put,
Mr. BARRON proposed that ''two days' notice"
should be given of the proclamation of each district.
Mr. STANLEY proposed that the following words be
inverted •' from the day after that on which" such procla
matron, &c.

Mr. O'CONNELL did not think that sufficient time.
For let it be recollected, that a district often comm....
bended a whole county. The county of Cork, for instance,
might become a proclaimed district, and from one point of
it to another there might be a distance of eighty miles.
How, then, would the persons of one point know of ,he
proclamation posted a day before at another? He should
propose that a notice of proclamation should be posted on
each church and dissenting chapel of the district proclaimed.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL objected to the proposal
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. If notices were
posted on each church and chapel, it would be necessaty
to prove each such notice, the result of which would be,
that the clause would become a dead letter.

Mr. STANLEY tiviught a copy of the proclamation
posted in a public place of each barony, would be sufficient
notice for every individual residing in the barony to know
that it was proclaimed.

Mr. SHAW observed, with respect to posting notices
in baronies, that it did not follow that every county of
city, or county of a town, should have a barony.
The sixth clause, as amended, was then agreed to.
The seventh clause having been put,
Mr. STANLEY proposed to leave out those words of
the filth line—" And such other persons as such Lord-
Lieutenant or other Chief Governor or Governors shall
think fit to authorize in that behalf;" and to limit the
powers granted by the clause to the persons mentioned in
the four first lines.

Mr. O'CONNELL proposed that the former words,
" all commissioned officers commanding his Majesty's
forces in Ireland," he omitted. The clause, as it stood,
included yeomanry officers as well as those- of the line.
To those persons were granted the power "to search for,
arrest, and detain for trill every person who shall be
charged with any offence," &c. He objected to having
this power granted to those persons, and maintained that
the House ought to require that such power be intrusted
only to persons to whom the service of the process of the
law belonged. They should be resident in the country,
and consequently not military officers, who, siter abusing
the powers intrusted to them, might be ordered off to
some extreme end of the globe, and thereby become per_
f ctiy irresponsible for their acts. He would divide the
House on his amendment.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, in saying that he
thought he could persuade the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman to withdraw his amendment, made some obser-
vations, the purport of which was totally inaudible in
the gallery, and we should suppose, from the frequent
cries ot" Speak nut," equally so in the body of the House.
Mr. O.CONNELL, in reply, was old enough to re-
collect the time .whet. commissioned officers, posses-
sing the same powers th it were about to be given to them
now, abusi-d those powers in the most shameful manner.
The power of arrest they exercised for the most
flagitious and immoral purposes. When be made this
remark, he etnly spoke of toe army as it was then ;
what it was now, not bring.. nor

Mr: SiIEIL rose to make an observation, when •
Mi. STANLEY begged to interrupt the Hon. and
Learned Member, in order to state what the Government
contemplated with respect to courtsmartial. Or, this head
many objections bad been made, and Government was
determined to meet them in the best way possible. He
alluded in anticipation to the eleventh clause, and said,
that after the proviso that no officer shall serve on any
suet, Court who shall not have obtained the rank of
Captain, it was to be further provided, that no officer
should nerve who had been on active duty in any pro-
claimed district a month before the time of the sitting of
any courtmartial to try offences committed in such district.
Tors further proviso was intended to prevent anything
like the effects of prejudice or passion. What the G .vern-
meut meant to do was to send over from this country a
certain number of proper officers to try offences according
to the procee,,ines pointed out to them by the clause.
Mr. SHELL said that this last concession proved hoer
necessity it was to use pertinacious resistance with respect
t. everytl.ing that was objectionable. Nut making the
Judges party to arrest, &c,, was a considerable modifies-
! tion. With respect to commissioned officers, he would
just mention, that constables in this country were purely
peace officers, whereas the Irish police partook partly to
the military and civil power. Why, then, 'mt.; to the
army, when there could be found in the Irish police men
of both military and civil capacity? It the onus were
thrown upon the police, it would prevent the officers of
the army from interfeting in many things which their
sense of honour must compel them to think—to say the
least of it—disagreeable.
Mr. O'CONNELL asked if the officers to be sent to
Ireland were to he militia officers, or of the line?
Mr. STANLEY—Of the line.
After a few words from Mr. BARRON, Mr. D. ROCHE,
and Mr. EWA RT,

The gallery was cleared for a division, when there ap-
peared—

For Mr. O'Connell's amendment 4O
Against it 205
Majority for Ministers
-165
On returning to the gado), a discussion was going on,
we believe, n an amendment moved by Mr. RUTHVEN,
that the Chairman do.report progress.

Mr. DIVETT warmly object-d to the House reporting
progress at so early an hour.—( Cheers.) The debate upon
this question had commenced on the first reading—it had
been followed up on the second reading—it had been con-
tinued in the Committee on every clam.e, to the interrup-
tion of all other business—and it ought not to be thus
e isi'y adjourned night after night.—((;heers ) An (fort
sh old be made to make a positive progress with it.—
(Hear.) In juoice to the country—in justice to the suf
fering people of Ireland—to the other great questions of
public interest, on which the minds of the people were
anxi.iusly b..nt—this system of delay should be strenuously
resisted.—(Loud cheers.) He must suggest, that it
greater progress were not made, they could not, in jus-
tice to their constituents, claim the usual recess at
Eurer.—(Cheers )
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Hon. Member for Exeter
hrd wade a most unfounded attack on the opponents 0,
the Bill. The first part of the opposition of that evening
which had occupied many hours, lie had discountenanc,'
as much as any man ; and now, when he and his fellow
counts ymen, who were to suffer by that Bill—that Bii
which even its supporters termed arbitrary, despotic, ant
cruel—when they were battling to obtain some little 010
dification of its harshness and its tyranny, they were
be reproached in this manner —(Cheers.) There vie,
two great principles of the Bill—the right of search, ail
ihe power of arre't and detention without evidence L 4
without oath—which they felt it their duty to combati,
the utmost. They were piavers of a monstrous chart_
ter, and such as ought never to be heard of in that HI.
The Hon. Member's concluding words were inaudibhin

I the gallery.
Mr. DIVETT had not made an unfounded accustn.
No one regretted the necessity for the Bill more thl he
did ; but having once made up their minds to that ace,
city, that the Bill ought to pass, he thought they t
sit there till a later hour, that thy mi 2ht uffird tinere•
alter for the other business of the country.(Cheei)
Sir J. SEBRIGHT said that they had already
ent a
considerable part of the session on that measurisiont.,
and made no
progress in the other business of the t ntrv.
—( Hear, hear. )0n every side,not only tin re but eitteberie,
he heard nothing but loud complaints of the culpali weak.
ness of Ministers.—(Cheers.) He called on thet resist
these continued attempts at procrastination, and,„ ,
ki c irry
this measure—not of cruelty, but of protection L. kind-
ness--as quickly as they possibly could.—(Loudt: erg.)
Lord ALTHORP certainly did feel that they
;ht not

WO
fir af
to report progress, and that it was his duty /ma
the motion of the Hon. Member for Dahlias- .S
4
.
cries of " Divide, divide !") '• tti°o4s
taighter, ,_..4,4 Cli,
crilVesiro.fP,.,
DHiOviWdeA.,,RDArosiesoannin iadsit'the
Hee. Af,e,botor
obtain a hearing, he said be had been in :044
whole of the evening—(Laughter)----and hews' ligfa
that, to the best of his observation--(11ene: oafuleg-is
—the Hon. Member for Dublin had strictlyeile sbooki
self to the question before the House. sate
~, song go
however, it would be better to come -- yid' ght •
compromise.—( Hear, and laughter.) Percone,
Member, and those who acted- with him, v"Ler, sto,
sit half an hour longer.—(Renewed blu,d reselli!':,
peated calls of " Question.") No good c
an anal ei
a discussion which was carried on in such a° *ober d
—(Question, question.) Would the Hon. ',met.) r
Dublin aeree to hill an hour ?—(Renewed leug le"
would suggest to his Majesty the
e 11..;
that those Acts of the 27th George 111.---(Thev the S
Member was interrupted for some momet' tio.K,
deafening and uncontrollable burst of le_egid bee- ,
those Acts, the Hon Member repeated. 'tn... of
died in the one then under discussion.---
01 vide" from all parrs of the House.) on
Mr. H. GRATTAN sail if the discuss;
_lda
for the P"
sisted in, it would he sitting longer • dee
doing business worse. but "•-•
The gallery was then cleared for a division,
01.
derstood that none took place. gl Air* 01 01
On our return to the gallery, we foot- „ye, s a
NELL objecting to the first part of the 7ib e"' tAs
directs all peace officers and magistrate. ei"..00.106:g
's Itlinisters
most vigorous and effectual steps to suppress o leo, to
He contended that this clause would entitle tb
noll
mit the most lawless acts. la em
Mr. STANLEY denied that the clause We ° •se
them to commit lawless acts. the 5416104
After a desultory conversation, in which solvesy
General, Mr. Stanley. (Cheshire), and gr. ~ goo° 0
part, it was agreed that the word " y leorooriiol
struck out, and that the words "effectual
law" be ioserted in its stead. °l'd
Mr. HAWES then men that ;to se°, or.-
should be put in execution unless stgned by one
As
or
Magistrates. all,:dot,
A desultory conversation took place on this 0
Eventually this clause was agreed to, with sn nolti t4l
...,,r
ing, on the part of Lord Althorp, that he Let
into consideration the merits of the amen the
posed by the Hon. Member for Lambeth before'
ing up of the report.
tsirAi
The eighth cause was also agreed to. ~a ob
The CHAIRMAN then reported reset*"
_.„,
progress,
Gr
leave to sit again this day. f the SA
Sir G. SKIPWITH brought up the repot 500'4
mittee on the Losd.,n and Birmingham fteu"
, sr,
which was ordered to lie on the table. . ,ietr°"
The other orders of the day were then ibervaj, I
at three o'clock this morning the House skiee-
„, le.
ire):
HO USE 0 P
On the Loan CHANCKI,LOR. t ,Iting his *eat .-0100
.40'
sack, at a quarter after five o'cl .ck, Lord Wei- too" 1
several other Nlembets of the House of CO''ttag II
oe ri
up sonic Private B Its. sserfe• IV
Several petitions, praying for the better °,"--oista.,,
the Sabbath; were presented by the Duke of u.,„°,ool'''
Earls of Radnor and R b st art "
ose eiy, Lord to if
and the Bishop of Lincoln. or aye 'SI
Lord IDACRE presented petitions, rayinieg 10100,
mediate abolition ofslavery,Lincoln,P"'" - ti
from
so
various othe, places. 'o°
Lord KENYON presented • • for the 1
a petition tr
abolition of slavery. jag for
Lord WESTON presented petitions, PreY-fibe '
abolition of slavery, and the better observance ,°,,a,
bath, from Brompton, Colchester, and other P''"'" ior ;
The Earl of GOSFORD presented peti'itn°;sloo,o
better observance of the Sabbath, from 134.ti0n fr.
Anfrone, and other places in Fife. Also a pett
obliged
the bikers of Dundee, complaining of being ji
work at their trade on Sundays. , ot Lirerri
Lord SUFFIELD prise • • fro l'un d
presented a petition
praying fir a mitigation of the criminal lase' trod Ile j
signed, amongst other reasons, one which 41Ve-110,:ora
Lordship to be very well founded, viz., the ulia'fyloor iii!
of persons to prosecute, owing to the severity genea•:/.
They state.' also, that for that reason our froceurl
tended to create, instead of to dimioisb, 'be ",,%tla ion
property. They prayed for the abolition of "eoe- otsor'
cases of robbery. He could answer far lbe fel' ttr
r '
of the persona who had signed the petition. the of
Lord SUFFIELD presented a titian frota oil ,
thunists of All Smuts and St. Anne, against S°4lo 101'
The Earl of RODEN presented tition tiu oode
rseOW i' •
r .he better observance of the Sabb Alb ~,,i 01(• 1;
The Bishop of LITCHFIELD and COV.,q-all'itlet"
rented petitions to - the same effect, from 1--
~A
Rusbali, and various places in Staffordshire. ore tr.',
Earl GREY presented twostations to the I'l,,
p _
_,, ow 1
as also, several other
petitions,
praying for ,“'
rtir# 1 abolition of slavery. 4'l. t.
0,, the • niutum of the Earl of SHAFT-6"7 ad ''''
Exchequer
Bills Bill, the Supply in Aids Bill, 67 -;
1
private Bills, were read a
second time.
Lord TEYNHAM said that he held in 11.'11 el /1
returns which their Lordships had been so rieOtio,
order respecting the Barony of Gallen, in theta el
_..11.
Mayo. He would be sorry to take up the t•--,.; e1e,..,
House upon this subject, but, indeed, it would,',"oo'
unnecessary for him to say more than to read t''' .s
Or
which be then held in his hand. • tel
Earl GREY inquired whether the Noble 10-A ID
to conclude with a motion i,h re/ Vasipici
Lord TEYNHAAI said that he did. s-et b
a proclamation of the Lords Justices, by "Zre 1:1,1:
barony was put under the Priest Preservation ;;;I:j ots
second was a memorial of the Catholic clergf,,'t 'Obi; !
inhabitants of the barony, as to the state of qui- ri 001 ..kit.'
it was. The third was a similar memorial Jr" faerts,
Williatn Eli abaizon and other maristmrates. 1 Thiestioer'
in
nas a list of the constables!'
that were -te
bei°;f:
' their
county. From other returns :hat were Manny'
Lodships, it would appear that bad the oute
Gallen nit been infested with illicit distillers, t" ova ;
,if crime, during the last year would not have an' take II;
tmore tlsn three. He repeated, he was sorry t°,, ce°,2ll,
heir I.4.dships' time; but he considered it tvel,„-en I 1..•
at tl e 'resent time, when a most uncomttirOt'ildt m,r;
was behg pressed forward, giving to the Govern t 0 ley"
constititiond
powers, fur their Lordships 0.000 '
at the way in which the formr extraoidinarldutiree
with which his Majesty's Government b. of
intrusted, had been executed. He would take thl:t iOl
tunitYof stating that that Bill was the least lik,,r'ibue ts:
meastte that could have been introduced, to silk 1,0;0
am' that at that time prevailed,nor, in hie -i,'el c
won% there be any peace till lh if tite- oill 1
~e system ' as •
total(,
abolished. Toe county of Mayo had been a ye• I
elin.ef 1824 as any county in England. There ‘llO,ll VI,
but few etecutions for capital crimes, and very 'fivt, 0.4
posed for felonies. The barony was perlectlY cill•rost
h.'M the Reform Bill with just as tnoeh , (%-
as ny other part of the country. The freeholder ".. ) '
(Lord 1' • 118
e•"nty had called upon a relativey
of his
cope forward as a candidate for its reseotati4.t 001 ;
mureph
be d 4 pot o, 1
elided to Sir W. Brabant], and st
rr.sent the county, to, re was no doubt but tbotley one
ire choice of she freeholfers—he did not mean to reset° j
turd in dispraise of the Hon. Gentlemen who 5,S ,P Of I
at for the county, lie had noth' v gs'ni l'''
log t,, sa a , I. i
int this Ithat they did not represent the freeholaer ,os TO
t
:cal cause of the discontent in Ireland was the Vireo 111,1 '
to armed police, who mixed with the people s' •-• se"
lather places, with thei •
1
r muskets in these.
,sail upon 41
of Noole Lords would look at the in
quests he' 1114 too
(people murdered by th..se policemen, they w`,12140 11 , ,
that reeard was not had to the ewelfare of tue I:l°,eoJ I
was to be expected. He would also ask then, e",„ ti.- !
the verdi • cts which were returned by the jurors Were Or
those very policemen—they would see that they 'lcier°
from being popular ones, and yet not one of thoseg is 0
had been molested. Many mem(vials had been 1°00°)
the Lords Justices from the Ca ,. i Y af'd
• h I‘.
ao.ic C erg . to e
(than whom none better knew the state of Oen' r• 10eA
stating that that barony was in a state of perfedetqu7utther
why they should and that there was no reason I-
"e - 1
aflii •
card with an additional number of Policerlil. ,t
neen°'
lo-t, after a log silence, and having had manY
pod all
rials placed before them, the Lords Justices rot tor!
01
..ain,swer to the affect that they saw no reason w dyplscij
ould rescind their order, by which the baron,' ser-,.,1 10;
under the Act. lii 1830 a memorial from 4". p an
rishes. in the comity of Mayo had been drawnhuo P.
signed by the Grand Jury - • pur'" rstil
, earnestly tut
,be dePP. 0J
.kry's Government to pay some attention to • epo
?ta-e of that county, and to the difficulty that then „, in'.
in the collection of tithes. He thought that it
)0
ti beeo
possible to look at the sev ral memorials that id: by ej
drawn up. and the affidavits that had b en ma .8 09 4
many respectable potions without seeing that thi 00 a
case of inquiry, '' tated et'le All
is
tale
of and that what hail been s ~r.
fiction, lie had the affidavit of 0, l'' f Fet
who
coo; however, was not a magistrate. and ull Orefee
knew, who
.swore on his solemn oath, that
be 00,4
the inhabitants of the harony to
._io; 00
orderlyl. . and peaceable than they had peen a°l •OP
0 ile
last bIZ months. Also, the affidavits of two pets piano
said that the statements related by the Noble Sall