The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-31 00:00:00

While thousands proudly turn away,
And to the millions answer, Nay;
So long the merry reign shall be
Of Captain Rock and his family."
—(Loud laughter.) He had no to his Protestant
fellow 'subjects, not the least; but what he complained of
was that he should be compelled by law to support, for
their gratification, an establishment from which he
entirely dissented, and from which he received no be-
nefit. Let them look at the vulgar arithmetic of
the argument. The population of Ireland was in
round numbers 8,500,000. Of these 7,000,000 were
Catholics, 700,000 were in communion with the Church
of England, 700,000 were Presbyterians, and 100,000
were Wesleyans, Quakers, and other Dissenters. The
clergy of the 7,000,000, who were 4,000 in number,
cost the state nothing, being supported by the voluntary
contributions of their flocks. The Presbyterians, who
in the days of their political purity indignantly rejected
aid from the State, now received 36,0001. a year in the
shape of a Regius Donum, and the clergy of the 700,000
Episcopalians enjoyed a revenue of upwards of 700,0001.
a year, which was derived from a tax levied upon all
classes of religionists.—(Hear, hear.) Yet the Hon.
Member opposite was so innocent, which was a soft word
Ireland for ignorant—(Laughter)—as to believe that
7,000,000 of Catholics, 700,000 Presbyterians, and
100,000 Wesleyans and Quakers, did not think it a
grievance (no, not the least in the world) to be compelled
to pay for a clergy from whom they entirely dissented.
So much for that part of the subject. There could
be no doubt but that the speech of the Honourable
and Gallant Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne)
contained many useful suggestions, which might be
made the foundation for good legislation. and which he
hoped would one day receive the serious consideration
of the House. He hoped to see the day when many of
those suggestions would be carried out ; and, above all,
he hoped to live to see the day when every man in the
community would pay his own clergyman as he paid his
own doctor.—(Laughter and cheers.) Honourable Mem-
bers might laugh, but he begged to call their attention
to that period of the Christian era when Christianity was
thought to be purest, and when its ministers were most
respected, In the apostolic times there was no connec-
tion between church and state, and so it ought to be now.
Religion ought to be sundered from all state connection,
and the clergy of every persuasion should be supported
by those who received the benefit of their services. Ho
should vote for the motion of the Honourable Member
for Rochdale, not because it would be productive of any
practical good, just at present, but because it would at'-
ford a guarantee to his fellow-countrymen that they
should obtain relief at all events next session. For his
own part, he could wish that relief were afforded now,
for if ever within the last 48 years there was a period at
which it was desirable that the axe should be laid to the
root of bad legislation, it was the present.—(Hear, hear.)
It was said that Ireland was on the verge of rebellion.
He hoped it was not so ; but if it were so, those in that
House and out of it, who had contributed to irritate pub-
lic feeling in Ireland, were accountable.
Mr. STAFFORD rose amidst cries of divide to ad-
dress the House. He trusted the House would for a
short time permit him to oncupy its attention while he
addressed himself to one, or at most two, of the topics—
all of them important, most of them urgent—which had
been submitted for their consideration by the Honour-
able Gentleman the Member for Rochdale. Before pro-
ceeding to do so, he must remark that, whatever charges
he had heard made against the Honourable Member for
Dublin, certainly it was not the charge of giving a fac-
tious opposition to her Majesty's Government—(Hear,
hear)—tor his conduct since he came into that House
had been marked by a most elaborate and studious de-
sire to avoid any such charge.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dublin had stated, as
he (Mr. Stafford) thought very fairly, that his wishes
were not hostile to the Church of Ireland, but merely to
the temporalities of that church. But the distinction
which the Honourable Gentleman drew between
the Church of Ireland and what the Right
Honourable Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland
called "the Ecclesiastical Establishment ot Ire-
land," was, he (Mr. Stafford) presumed, of such a
nature that they had little reason to thank him for saying
he entertained no hostility towards it.—(llear, hear.)
He could assure him that they who belonged to that
' Church, and adhered to its ritual, and believed in its
apostolical origin and immortal destiny, were nut afraid
to stand up in that House to declare that it was stronger
than any combination of politicians arrayed against it.
—(Hear, hear.) It would be found that already there
had been two alienations of the property of the Church
of Ireland. The first took place when, by the abandon-
ment of the church cess, they fixed the charge for
repairs of churches upon the ecclesiastical fund. The
church cess might have been difficult of collection,
unjust in its incidents, and ill managed in its expendi-
ture, but at all events he apprehended no gentleman,
however hostile to the ecclesiastical establishments of
Ireland, would deny that in removing the church cess
from the property subject to that charge, and placing it
upon the ecclesiastical property of the country, they
simply transferred it to laymen, the owners of the pro-
perty on which it had been a charge. There was in the
next place a commutation of tithes, and by the arrange-
ment which was made they gave 75 per cent. to the
Church, but at the same time took 25 per cent. and
gave it to the landlords.—(Rear, hear.) And they had
this year under discussion the question of ministers'
money in Ireland, which was said to amount to about
11,000/. or 15,0001. a year, and he believed 5,0001. of it
was collected in the city which the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman (Mr. Reynolds) represented.
Mr. REYNOLDS-11,0001.
Mr. STAFORD-11,000/. of which was collected in
the city of Dublin. The Hon. Gentleman who brought
forward the question of ministers' money, having talked,
of course, of liberty of conscience—the rights of tolera-
tion and respect for the feelings of others, ended by pro-
posing that this ministers' money should be defrayed out
of the ecclesiastical property.—(Cries of " Question.")
There could be nothing more germane to the question.
Honourable Gentlemen called "question," and that
plainly showed that they did not understand tho ques-
tion before the House ; but it would not be his fault if

they did not understand' it. A question was now raised
with respect to this ministers' money ; and it the prepo-
sition made with regard to it was acceded to, they would
merely, by doing so, transfer 15,000/. a year to the hands
of the owners of the property in which it was at present
charged, and 11,000/. of that would be transferred, net
from the Protestant clergyman to the Roman Catholic
' priest, but from the ecclesiastical establishment to
the owners of property in Dublin.—(Hear, hear.)
When the Honourable Member for the city of Dublin
declared that it was a hardship to bo compelled to sup-
port a church to which he did not belong, he would re-
mind the Honourable Gentleman that he and those who
were anxious for ecclesiastical establishments were far
more nearly united in principle than those who were
opposed to establishments of that kind. The Protestants
of Ireland were, in fact, in the position which the Hon.
Member for Dublin wished himself to be ; but let them
once apply the principle which he contended for, and not
a single person in Ireland would be in that desirable
state.—(Hear, hear.) He would remind the Honourable
Gentleman that the position of the Roman Catholic
clergy in that country was this—they stood pledged by
the reiterated declarations of their Bishops, and of their
advocates in that House, to the voluntary system.—
(Hear, hoar.) They had no reason to assume that those
Rev. Gentlemen were insincere, and the Honourable
Gentleman the Member for the city of Limerick (Mr. J.
O'Connell) who was recognised in that House as the
organ of the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland, when the
question of religious endowment was raised, stood up in
his place, and, with a consistency to be admired, declared
again what he had previously affirmed, as to the advo-
cacy
• of the voluntary principle by the Roman Catholic
clergy, and stated that their opinions on the subject were
still unchanged.—(Hear, hear.) It was true it had been
said by some persons that the spirit of disaffection in
Ireland would be quieted and removed if the Government
paid the priests, but he asked them, independently of
other considerations, whether the advocates of the priests
could think so meanly of them.—(Hear, hear.) He
might also add, with reference to this subject, that there
were a great number of their fellow-subjects, not the
least loyal, not the least peaceable and industrious, who
held that on a question of this kind, to add a national
endowment to that particular creed would be to com-
mit a great national sin, and call down the judgment of
Heaven.—(Cries of " Divide.") With regard to any
interference with the Established Church, if he under-
stood Irish Members rightly, they would not hail with
any satisfaction the result of an agitation to knock off
the expenditure in their country of a sum of 700,0001. a
year; and instead of this grant coming from the conso-
lidated fund, and being sent over every year from the
Imperial Treasury to Ireland, the result of the agita-
tion would be that 700,000/. a year less would be spent
in Ireland, the odious church would be destroyed, and
-the country would be the poorer.—(Cries of " Divide.").
"Mr. GRACE would not at that late hour of the day
occupy the time of the House, but as an Irish Member,
he thought it right to come forward and declare his
anxiety to'nee his country happy and prosperous, and
the redress' of her wrongs effected. He felt extremely
unhappy at the present state of the country, and re-
gretted that the piotnises of relief which had been held
out were not realised.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GRATTAN rose amidst loud cries of divide.
When silence was restored, the Hon. Gentleman said—
I merely rise to make an apology to my countrymen for
not speaking.—(Loud laughter.)
Tho House then divided, when there appeared—

-
For the amendment 24
Against it
Majority. -76
POOR-LAW UNION CHARGES (No. 2) BILL.
On the motion of Mr. C. BULLER, the House went
into Committee pro forma on this Bill. The Right Hon.
Gentleman stated that his object in moving that the Bill
should go into Committee was, to propose the omission
of the clause which had been inserted declaratory of the
right of Irish pnupers to parochial relief in this country,
after an industrial residence of fire years. Since the in-
sertion of the clause he had ascertained that it was un-
necessary._

Mr. a J. O'CONNELLaisaid he should object to the
clause being struck out.

Mr. C. RULLER regretted exceedingly that it had
ever been inserted. Its introduction into the Bill might
tend to produce an impression that he had doubts as to
the law as it at present stood, whereas, in truth, he did
not entertain any; and he believed that legal opinions
to the elect that you might deny relief to
Irish paupers who had been resident in the
same parish five years would be found to be ex-
ceedingly rare. lie should be exceedingly grieved
if any discussion were to create in that House
the disposition upon which some boards of guardians
seamed inclined to act, namely, a disposition to deprive
the Irish poor of benefits which the law had undoubtedly
intended for them; benefits which he would do his best
to secure for them without legislation, in the next ses-
sion, and with legislation if ho should find it necessary
for the object. He believed that all the advantages of
the law were as much intended for the Irish poor as for j
fib English poor.