The Sun.
London, England, 1870-06-24 00:00:00

THE TELEGRAPHS.
Mr. STACPOOLE asked the Postmaster-General if the Post
Office undertook to deliver telegrams from London in
Dublin in a reasonable time. If he considered ten or
twelve hours a reasonable time for the transmission of a
telegraphic message of under twenty words from London
to Dublin ; if the Post Office would return money paid
for messages from London to Dublin not delivered in
reasonable time ; and if a petition of right or other
proceeding would lie against the Post Office for loss or
injury incurred by the non-delivery or late delivery of a
Post-office telegram. 9
The Marquis of HARTINGTON said as the hon. member
had given notice of a motion attacking the Post Office
management of the telegraphs, he must answer
the honourable member's question with some caution.
The Post-office did nothing more than under-
take to deliver messages with as little delay as possible
He did not think ten or twelve hours a reasonable time
for such messages. When a breakage in communica-
tion took place, notice was given, and if the
public persisted in sending the messages under such diffi-
culties, no return of money would take place ; but if no
notice of interruption was given, and delay then took
place, the money would be returned. He did not think
that a petition of right would lie against the Postmaster
General under the circumstances stated, but the hon.
gentleman, if dissatisfied with that answer, could take
the opinion of counsel.
THE BRAZILS.
Mr. ANDERSON asked the Under Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs if any steps were being taken by Govern-
ment to obtain settlement of the claims of British subjects
on the Government of Brazil.
Mr. OTWAY said the subject was a very old one, but an
examination of the whole matter was being made, and
when the report was received he would state the result to
the hon. gentleman.

ARMY ENLISTMENT.
Colonel LLOYD LINDSAY asked the Secretary of State
for War whether Clause 4 in the Army Enlistment Act,
which said, " that the Secretary of State may from time
to time vary the conditions of service," could have the
effect of preventing a soldier when he enlisted from know-
ing whether he was engaging for three years or twelve
years.
Mr. CARDWELL said that the attestation paper which
the recruit signed set out clearly the time for which the
enlistment took place, and no alteration could take place
without the consent of the person signing it.
THE ELEMENTARY EDUCATION BILL.
At a quarter to five the debate on Mr. Richards's
amendment was resumed by Mr. Dixon, the member for
Birmingham. The hon. member for Merthyr Tydvil
proposed that the grants to existing denominational
schools should not be increased, and that in any national
system of elementary education the attendance should
everywhere compulsory, and that the religious instruction
he should be supplied by voluntary effort, and not out of
public funds. When the discussion was recommenced
the benches, which, during the time devoted to the pre-
sentment of petitions and to questioning, were nearly
empty, were well filled. The Treasury bench was
scarcely occupied, Mr. Gladstone being conspicuous by
his absence. The strangers and the Speaker's galleries
were filled with spectators, who seemed to take a deep and
earnest interest in the proceedings. There were very
few ladies behind the screen, a somewhat noteworthy
fact, inasmuch as they have hitherto taken a very marked
interest in social questions. Over the clock sat the Rajah
of Cawnpore, and the Under Secretary of State for India
with him.

Mr. DIXON pointed out what he considered the defects
of the bill. He objected to the permissive compulsory
enactment. There was another principle, he said, which
was very imperfectly carried out. Educational statistics
shewed that one of the great causes of ignorance was the
poverty of the parents, and admitting this the Govern-
ment said, " Now we are going to enforce a
compulsory law we will remove this difficulty by allowing
the School Board to admit free those who can prove
poverty." In reply to that the people said that all who
receive that assistance would be in the position of paupers
because they would be receiving relief from the
rates, although for mental and not bodily food. He con-
tended that the Government would not even then
remove the difficulty, because there were hundreds of
thousands immediately above this lowest pauper class
who would still be in a position of the greatest difficulty, and
whether there were a compulsory tax or not they would
be unable to educate their children unless they had assist-
He had no objection to the public exchequer
searing the cost of the schools. The people did not wish
to recognise any distinctions of class, but that the schools
of the country should be free, not simply the schools of the
poorer classes, but the middle class schools, even the
Universities. The hon. member then went on to say that if
he understood the amendments of the Government aright,
they proposed that the denominational schools at present
existing might hereafter be increased in number, and that
the grant which had hitherto been paid to them might be
augmented to the extent of one-half. He should like it
to be clearly understood that had not the slightest ob-
jection to the transference of the burden of the cost of
these schools from the rates to the Imperial Exchequer.
But he did object, and he thought all the Nonconformists of
the country would object to this that they should make
an increase of the grant, no matter from what source out
of the public revenues for denominational schools. The
The hon. member pointed out what in his opinion would
be the effect of such a clause as that proposed by the
member for South Hampshire and accepted by the
Government. In every school board the question would
be debated whether any religion whatever would have to
be taught, and if it were decided that religion
should be taught it would then be debated what religion
it should be. He felt convinced that, apart from the
special difficulties to which he alluded, and which would
be a barrier to educational progress in special districts,
the operation of the clause would be such that the Non-
conformist bodies would be in perpetual antagonism to
the law, and would conceive it to be their duty to
perpetually agitate against the operation of a principle
which they had invariably dissented from. The hon.
member then disputed the position of the Vice-President
of the Council, that they had no right to have a con-
scientious scruple in the matter of religious teaching
unless they allowed those who wished for it to have a con-
scientious objection against the exclusion of religion from
their schools. He denied that the Bible was to be
excluded, and the organisation which he represented (the
Birmingham League) had never suggested it.
The hon. member spoke exactly an hour and a quarter,
and was followed by Mr. BRUCE, who said that there was
no'surer way of wrecking the bill than by adopting the
schemes of the supporters of the amendment. The main
principle of the proposition was that schools should be
secular. He
_quite admitted that if they were
to have what was called a national system of
education he could see no other refuge than a secular sys-
tem, but it was because the Government were of opinion
that they had opposed the present measure. The
right hon. gentleman denied that the bill could be consi-
dered in its principle as " undiluted denominationalism,"
and referring to the observation made on a previous occa-
sion by the right hon. gentleman the member for Buck-
inghamshire, that the schoolmasters would become a
sacerdotal class, he said the effect would be directly the
contrary. He thought it was a mockery to tell the House
that the children should be left to the clergy, and asked
where, if not in schools, the thousands of children who
lived in irreligious homes, and never heard of God except
in blasphemy, were Ito be taught religion ? It was, he
said in conclusion, with infinite mortification that he had
seen the discussion on a subject of national education had
degenerated into theological dispute. The right hon.
gentleman spoke for an hour. At the close of his speech.
and as soon as Mr. Henley rose, a large number
of hon. gentleman loft the House. The mem,

ance.

her for Oxfordshire, who supported the bill, thought the
Government would now see that it was clear
that all their concessions to the secularists would prove
futile. He regretted that the amendment of the member
for South Hampshire had been adopted, because it shut
out the Church of Enlgand. He believed that if the
existing schools hcd been more utilised they would have
had a sounder knowledge of the wants of the country,
and how to meet them. As the hon. member resumed
his seat nearly a dozen hon. gentlemen jumped up
simultaneously in a great hurry to have their say on the
bill. Mr. Charles Reed, however, caught the Speaker's eye,
and proceeded to address the House, if such it could be
called, there not being more than 20 members present, at-
tributable no doubt to the circumstance that it was nearly
eight and dinner time. Mr. Ayrton, the First
Commissioner of Works, was, as usual, somnolent,
and the Secretary of State, with arms folded
and bowed head, seemed utterly prostrated. Mr.
Gladstone and the President of the Poor-law Board were
conversing very confidentially in a subdued tone, tho
Clerk seemed languid, whilst the " House " exhibited the
most consummate indifference to the hon. gentleman
who was addressing them with an earnest-
ness they apparently could not appreciate. The
representative of Hackney said that he had for forty years
had a good deal to do with the day and Sunday schools of
the Nonconformists, but he had never in the former heard
anything like denominational teaching. He thought it
would be a monstrous thing to discard the Bible, and could
not understand how members of the House could commit
themselves to a secular system of education. When Mr.
Hibbert rose the House had become still more vacant, and
the Conservative party were represented by four members.
The member for Oldham said he had heard a great deal
about the defects of the bill, but he had heard nothing
about its merits, which he considered were very great. He
spoke of the impossibility of satisfying all parties, and
said they could only settle the question in a spirit of
compromise, upon which he contended the bill was based.
He strongly urged the supporters of the amendment to
refrain from opposing the measure, in order that
G it
ordmigonht
pass this session. At a quarter to nine Mr. ,
rising hastily, called out, " Mr. Speaker, sir ;" but Mr.
Speaker, as is usual with him, left the chair for about a
quarter of an hour for refreshments. On the Speaker
resuming the chair the member for Glasgow and Aber-
deen Universities expressed his belief that "the reli-
gious difficulty" was simply a theoretical and political
difficulty. Mr. Baines spoke against the amendment, and
characterised it as most unworkable and impracticable.
During the time the member for Leeds was speaking
the appearance of the House became greatly changed,
and on both sides the seats were well occupied. Doubt-
less hon. gentlemen apprehended that a division must
soon take place. Viscount Sandon criticised the speech
of the hon. member for Birmingham, and spoke generally
in favour of the Government measure. Mr. Winterbotham
opposed the bill. At the beginning of his speech he was
listened to with great patience and evident interest, but
he soon disturbed the temper of the Opposition, and he
was interrupted by impatient and united cries of "'Vide
'vide." The member for Stroud, however, was not dis-
posed to yield to such attempts to stop the flow of his
eloquence, and he proceeded to give expression to his
convictions. "Once only did he lose his self-possession, and
show how he felt the conduct of his opponents, and that
was when he declared that the country would not be satis-
fied with clamour.
At half-past eleven Lord JOHN MANNERS rose to address
the House, but hon. members had evidently had enough
of speechifying for the night, and his lordship found himself
in the unusual position of being unable for some minutes
to get a hearing. The scene presented was an extra-
ordinary one. Mr. Forster, with legs crossed and eyes
shut, and hands in pockets, seemed dead to the eloquence
of the noble lord. Mr. Gladstone seemed troubled ;
probably the proceedings in the other House deeply con-
cerned him. The condition of Mr. Bruce and the
clerks seemed unaltered, and nine out of ten of the
members were talking. At a quarter to twelve o'clock,
just when the discussion had lasted seven hours, Mr.
Mundella moved the adjournment of the debate, and the
proposition not being opposed by the Premier, it was
agreed to.
THE WANT OF EMPLOYMENT.
Mr. TORRENS withdrew his motion with reference to
the want of employment among those who lived by
wage labour.
The House went into committee on the Gun Licenses
Bill.
Considerable objection was raised against the proposed
license duty of £l, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
seeing the feeling of the House, consented to reduce it to
ten shillings, and on a division being taken the duty was
fixed at that amount. At the instance of Mr. Lowe, the
chairman roportod progress, and the House resumed.
NORWICH VOTERS' DISFRANCHISEMENT
BILL.
Dr. DALRYMPLE moved as an amendment to the Lords'
amendment to the above bill, that the name of Mr. Ray
be withdrawn from the schedule. The amendment was
not agreed to.
Several orders were disposed of, and the House ad-
journed at ten minutes to three.