The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-11 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING. MARCH 11, 1846.

while. this one proposed to remove those only which affected •
Roman Catholics. In some other respects also the Bill in the
other House went farther. He had the greatest veneration
and respect for the religion which the Hon. Member
for the -University of Oxford professed, but he was sorry
to sap that, in his opinion, the policy of that Church
towards Roman Catholics, in former times, was most
unhappy and unwise.—(Hear.) He believed that in eerie-
quence of that policy the British Crown had been deprived of
the assistance of the ablest men in England. The Hon.
Member for the University of Oxtbrd had admitted that
there were penal Acts on the statute-book which ought ;o
be repealed; yet he was opposed to the second reading of
this Bill, which proposed to repeal the greater portion of
those Acts. For his (Sir J. Graham's) own part, he confessed
that if there were such penal statutes as had
been alluded to, it was the bounden duty of the
Legislature to repeal them. And what had been the
defnce set up with reference to the clause respecting Roman
Catholic schoolmasters? The Hon. Member for Oxford ad-
mitted that there was another clause, but that it never
came into operation. He also admitted in the course of his
speech that that statute ought to be repealed, and yet he
said that he would oppose the second reading of this Bill
which proposed to repeal it. He (Sir J. Graham) was most
anxious that this Bill should be passed into a law as quickly
as possible. He was not, however, prepared on the part of her
Majesty's Government to sanction the second reading of the
Bill. He also reserved to himself the power of proposing, in
Committee, some alterations with regard to the concluding
clauses cf the Bill. The Hon. Member had said that 'this
Bill proposed to repeal the Act of Supremacy, but it pro-
posed no such thing. He (Sir J. Graham) would, in fact
oppose the repeal of that Act ; nor did the Bill
which was now in progress in the other House
of Parliament propose the repeal of the Act of
Supremecy. He did think that, co isidering the immense
number of the Roman Catholic subjects of her Majesty, penal-
ties should no longer be enforced against them in either a
temporal or spiritual point of view.—(Hear, hear.) He
would again say that he really thought that the great settle-
ment of the year 1829 should, so far from being regarded as
unhappy, be considered as a most politic and wise settle-
ment.—( Hear, hear.) To that settlement he was determined
to adhere. With the reservation to which he had already
referred, he was prepared to give his most cordial support to
the second reading of this Bill.—(Hear, hear. )
Mr. WYSE would gladly have left the introduction of a
measure of Roman Catholic relief to the good feeling. and in-
tentions of Protestant Members of that House, rather than
a measure of that nature should have originated in conse-;
quence of' any complaints made by the Roman Catholic por-
tion of the House. He did not think it wise to keep on the
statute-beak the remnant of a law condemned by the general
feeling of the people of the country. His Right Hon. Friend
seemed to have misunderstood the subject before the House.
The House was not at present in Committee, where objections
might be taken to this or that clause of the Bill. They were
discussing the general principles of the measure. if these
enactments were useless, as the Right Hon. Baronet had
stated, he would ask why were they kept on the statute-
book ? He thought, therefore, that his Right Hon. Friend
was bound, in consequence of his own showing that the laws
were ineffective, and were continually evaded, to support the
second reading of the Bill ; while, at the same time, Hon.
Members on his side of the House were not bound to re-
pudiate the measure in consequence of any observations
which fell from the Right Hon. Baronet. He (Mr. Wyse)
considered it perfectly impossible to attempt, by any legis-
lative enactments, to bind the opinions or consciences of
any class of her Majesty's subjects.--(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
If the House would look through the Act, they would find
enactments compelling the citizens of a free country, differ-
ing from the established religion, to attend the ,read-
ing of common prayer. He could not be blind to the benefits
conferred on the country by the wise government of Queen
Elizabeth and the politic measures of her statesmen ; but
he could not help attributing to her the bad policy which had
been observable on the subject throughout the succeeding
reigns. With regard. to the observations of the Hon. Member
ferßutlandshire, he gave him due credit for good feeling ; but
he wished that he had been more accurately informed of the
opinions of Catholic writers, and of the nature of Catholic
prayers. There was no sue.' thing as a recognition of the tem-
poral supremacy of the Pope in any place beyond the Papal
dominions. Such a belief was well suited to the dark ages, but
not to the present time ; and he would join all Europe in
deprecating the extent of the power of the Pope beyond the
Papal dominions. With regard to what had been said about
an enactment for the suppression of the Jesuit., and the forcing
open of conventual institutions, or that there should be at
least an inquiry instituted into their practice a sort
of inquiry of lunacy,' perhaps—did the Hon. Member
not know that those institutions were perfectly open,
and that females entering them were allowed a
certain time to consider before they assumed the title of
nuns ? With regard to the title of bishop, it should be re-
collected, that though it was different in Ireland, in England
no Catholic bishop took his title from any English see, and
there was no Roman Catholic bishop who took his title from
an existing see, except when the Protestant title had
ceased, as in the case of the Roman Catholic Archbishop of
Tuam, and in that case there was no Protestant title.
Therefore he hoped that that House would not longer con-
tinue this relic of an age of bigotry, of which he, if he were
a Protestant, would be utterly ashamed. On these grounds,
then, he trusted that in this House he should hear no more
of non-right of dignitaries of the Roman Catholic Church to
the titles which they now bore.—(Hear.)
Mr. COLQUHOUN was anxious to state the grounds
upon which he should support his Hon. Friend the Member
for the University of Oxford. He admitted that there were
Acts bearing upon this subject to be found in the statute-
book, which he was perfectly prepared to get rid of; and
so far as they related to educational matters, he agreed with
the observations which had fallen from the Hon. Member
who had just sat down. There were parts of this Bill to
which he took exception, but if those parts were expunged in
Committee he did not know whether he might not be in-
clined to assent to the measure.—(Hear.) He, however,
certainly did not agree with the Right Hon. Baronet the Se-
cretary of State for the Home Department, that because a
Bill contained enactments which were wise and just in them-
selves, he was justified in voting for it second reading, while
at the same time there was a paramount part of the Bill
which was considered highly objectionable and contrary to
the spirit of the constitution.—(Hear.) • And, without going
back to defend the reign of Queen Elizabeth, distine
guished as that reign was for the- advancement of religion,
and the promotion of literature, because any one who looked
into the works of Spencer or Shakspere, or studied the
works of Lord Bacon, must be convinced that it required
no defence. He would contend that the paramount part of
the Bill to which he objected was decidedly opposed to that
wise and equitable spirit which ought to actuate them in
the present day —(Hear.) The constitution of the country
was based upon one recognised and constituted authority ;
they must take care not to allow an authority to exist that
was above the authority of the Crown and the Parliament
of the country. He found that it was the opinion of many
parties connected with the Church of Rome, that that
Church had power over all ecclesiastical matters ; that in
this respect it had supreme control. This was asserted by
many writers who concur in this view of the power of the
Church. If so, let them take the case of an election. A.
vote given in an election would be considered an ecclesiasti-
cal matter, though an elector was considered alone respon-
sible in a political point of view to the country. That a
vote at an election was an ecclesiastical matter, was stated
by the Church of Rome, and in proof of that they had the
evidence of the Committee appointed in 1835. It was
shown before that Committee that the Church of Rome held
this opinion.
Mr. O'CONNELL said it was not so.
Mr. COLQUHOUN said the lion. and Learned Gentleman
could not dispute the fact, as the evidence taken before the
Committee fully bole that out. It was held to be an eccle-
siastical matter, because an oath was taken at an election.
Mr. O'CONNELL—The Church of Rome does not say so.
Mr. COLQUIIOUN said the best course was to look to
the practical proceedings of the Church, and not the mere
words. It was their duty not to ask what the Church
taught, but what she practised. He (Mr. Colquhoun) did
not seek the mere words on the authority of books, but
what was practised and continually acted on, and that it
was as he had represented it to be could not be denied.
As long as he had a seat in that House he would oppose
every attempt at ecclesiastical domination, lie would always
be the advocate of the right of free judgment and the right
of conscience. -The Jesuits had ever aimed at this domina-
tion, and he called upon them to take all legal steps with
a view to undermine their power. He did not wish to re-
move them from the soil in fact. 'that was not a policy
which he would recommend, but he thought that every
means should be taken to prevent ecclesiastical power from
superseding the civil. Now, as the Act of Supre-
macy, the Ist of Elizabeth, went to put an end
to that power, he considered that it should not
be repealed. He must, therefore, offer his decided objection
to repeal these laws, though lie did not wish at the same
r to be considered one who would support his religious prin-
t ciples by penal enactments. He objected to any intolerance,
as it was subversive of all religious principles, of all Pro-
testant feeling. Intolerance was not the doctrine of the
Church of England. The Church of England recognised
the right of the exercise of private conscience and judgment.
—(Hear, hear.) But he found that it was admitted
on all side,-, by every body in point of fact
who looked at the present aspects of the day, that we
were advarcing to a very important period in the
history of Europe—(Hear, hear)—a period in which we were
engaged in a great struggle between the ecclesiastical autho-
rities and the civil power. —(Hear, hear.) His Honourable
and Learned Friend the Member for Rutlandshire had alluded
to the movement within the Church of England. Well, lie
(Mr. Colquhoun) did not mean to say it was not one which
foreboded great and serious danger to the Church ; and he
did not mean to say that if it increased he should not shrink
from asking the Legislature to interpose for the purpose of
arresting the progress of that dangerous movement. He,
for one, would not shrink when the proper time arrived
from grappling with the difficulty. The Honourable and
Learned Member had said; that there was a Mr. Wharton,
and an Archbishop of Rhodes, and another gentleman, Mr.
Green, who had objected to take the oath required by the
Act, and had consequently suffered great annoyance, but the
Hon. and Learned Member had said that it was not the oath
of 1826 that they objected to, and he had also refused to read
the oath. But what did the oath require ? Merely
that Roman Catholics should deny the civil authority
of the Church of Rome, and yet the Honourable
and Learned Member had called upon the House
to approve of his Bill because a certain layman and an Arch-
bishop had experienced some inconvenience because they
did not choose to take the oath in question. He (Mr. Col-
quhoun) contended that if this Bill were passed it would en-
gender most urgent and serious dangers which, in his opi-
nion, it was not wise to increase in .times like the present.
whoselfthe Lceoogunildsluactgture passed this .Bill without any modification,
theyati would d just as it wiawyseopurltodhe be g
pos
roesdtby hLearned Isis Hon. and Friend,
support to those men
calculated,ne stsu
g in.ut
,in the most
fcoatmalemfraonmnehristhHeolniberties and constitution of this country.
Chancellor —come, Hon. and Learned Friend, or from the Lord
should give his most fact, from what quarter it might—he
the present, whether it :cats ed opposition to a Bill like
ether or opposed by
the Government, or wheth was backed or con-
demned by the, hi hest authority in either House of
to the
constitution of
Parliament. He should,
in
utmost every attempt to break down the
Great Britain.—(hear, hear.) He would notconisvteit
port to measures like the present, which helbLeve(li jolt
fatal to the constitution and liberties of Englishmen—liberties
obtained at a period which his Hon. and Learned Friend
looked back to with contempt, but which he (111 r. Colgo_
holm) regarded with the greatest of veneration and respect.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the .Free Church of Scotland had reps;_
dieted the principle of ecclesiastical; supremacy in temporal
matters. His opinion was that in ecclesiastical matters ecclesias-
tical government should be supreme, and in civil and temporal
matters the civil power should be supreme. With reference
to the speech of the Right Hon. Member
hia for
w which
University of Oxford, he had stated mans
world have been better if considered in Committee. He
could assure the House, that as regarded any processions of
the kind being exhibited in the streets of London or other
large towns, he had too much veneration for that solemnity
to expose it to the ribaldry, and perhaps to the insult of them
who differed from him in their opinions upon that subject.
He would, however, state to the House, that at Malta an
officer of the British army conscientiously refused to fire the
accustomed salute at the time the procession of the Host was
by,. yfas punished by the Government of this Ma'

try for not doing so, by being deprived of his commision. 'He
(Mr. O'Connell) however brought the circumstances under the
consideration of the House, and undertook his defence on
the ground of his conscientious scruples. He did not think
he could allow himself to be silent upon the istonaetic order.
There was no how to prevent those institutions. There was
no law to prevent the superiors of convents keeping nuns
in their house. The doors of the convents are al-
ways open, so that the nuns might leave at any time
they thought proper.—(Heart hear.) They had not
however done so. The Eight Hon. Baronet seems to be
impressed with unfavourable notions regarding the Jesuits.
He had had opportunities of looking over the history of that
illustrious order. He was convinced there never were greater
friends to the advancement of literature than they had been.
He believed that:their virtueswere their crime. He defied any
man to state, kith name and fact, anything derogatory
to that illustrious order which he was not able to refute.
Their lives *ere spent in the performance of the most arctic
virtues. They are compelled to spend a number of years in
a course of training at their colleges, to enable them
to teach others, and at the expiration of that period they
may or may notbe admitted into the' order. They have
produced many great men in all branches of literature and
science, which no person can but admit. The authority of
Pascal, although a great and fascinating writer, yet he does
not attempt to look into the facts of the case ; and he (Mr.
O'Connell) believed that there was not a statement put
forward in that book that he was not able to refute.
Blichelet was not either any authority to be quoted
upon the subject of the Jesuits, nothing could be more atro-
cious than his bock. As to Eugene Sue, the writer of
romances of the most attrocious nature, he states no fact
whatever of the Jesuits. He succeeded by drawing largely
upon hie imagination to turn his work into a most gross and
unatural romance. There is not a single fact recorded in it.
They had been persecuted by ',many countries by reason
of their superior moral lives. Spain and Portugal had ba-
nished them from their countries, and no person could say
that those countries were et all in an enlightened state. He
thanked God that the order was now reviving again, that in
the la ~t year 40 missionaries had been sent to a great portion
of the most uncivilised parts of the globe. They would
probably double their number in the next year.- He begged
pardon of the llouse for introducing to their notice the sub-
ject of the Jesuists ; it was the first time he had troubled
the House with such a subject; and concluded by stating, as
his firm and settled conviction, that' they were the greatest
benefactors to the literature and science of this country.l -
Mr. PAKINGTON, though' a member of the Protestant
Church, would gladly support the principle of the Bill, which
he believed was to remove those enactments against Roman
Catholics which had now become obsolete. But, at
the same time, 'though perfectly willing to make
any concession to his Catholic brethren, he could not
go so far as the principle contemplated in the Bill.
He could not support a measure calculated to remove
these safeguards of the British constitution' which were
framed at the time of the passing of the Catholic Emanci-
pation Act in 1829.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL could say that he had been
educated at a Jesuit college, and from what he had seen there,
he believed that they were good Christians, enlightened
gentlemen, and loyal subjects.
Mr. NEWDEGATE thought that it would be found that
the order of the Jesuits would be difficult to be traced; he
would not deny that there might be among them some cha-
racters remarkable for their attainments. Several countries,
however, which the Hon. Member for Cork must be aware
of, had found it necessary for the preservation of internal
peace to banish them.
Mr. O'CONNELL stated, in reply to the Hon. Member,
that the forty missionaries he hid alluded to had not been
labouring in England or France, but their labours had com-
menced at the Mores, and ended at Cochin China. '
Lord JOHN MANNERS could not see what possible good
it could do to the ILonourable Member for Oxford, or
any other Protestant, to witness the continuance of these
laws upon the statute-book. The Honourable Ba-
ronet said he would remove them when some prac-
tical grievance resulted from their enforcement, but
what was that but carrying out the old adage of not
shutting the stable till the steed was stolen? Ile could not
agree with the fears expressed by Hon. Members in refer-
ence to the Jesuits. About 100 years ago a similar feeling
prevailed in this country against the Templare. There
was no atrocity of which they were considered capable.
The Spectator, a few years ago, stated that the feelings pre-
valent about Jesuits were " more suited to circulating
libraries and romances tban grave political discussions."
These opinions were absolutely ridiculous. The Jesuits
were a body of learned. and intelligent men, and had
of late carried the Gospel to China, and conferred a
great amount of good on benighted lands. Ile thought
they should rather imitate their example, as well
that of the Christian Brothers and the Cistercians of Mount
Melleray, than sully the dignity of the British House of
Commons by heaping aspersions upon them which were
utterly devoid of truth and unworthy of their character.
Mr. ESTCOURT apprehended that the enactments of
1829 were not inoperative and useless, for the speech of the
Noble Lord proved distinctly the reverse. The Noble Lord
dwelt at some length on them, and considered them of little
consequence; but he was old enough, to remember that con-
siderable importance was attached to them when they were
under discussion. He should most willingly support, the
amendment of the Hon. Baronet.
Mr. P. BORTWICK supported the second reading of the
Bill, because it was founded upon the broad principle of cha-
rity—the child of Christianity and the mother of the Church
of England. He considered the works of Eugene Sue ex-
ercised a more pernicious influence on society than any act
the Jesuits had ever Committed.
Mr. M. MILNES would have preferred that this discussion
had taken place upon the Government Bill. He passed a
great portion of his time in Catholic countries, and had
even heard the service of the Church of England
under the walls of the Vatican. He considered that the re-
moval of these disabilities would have a good effect on the
Roman Catholic religion abroad. He hoped that they would
eschew these absurd delusions about Jesuits, and remove for
ever from the statute-book these odious penalties and dis-
abilities.
Colonel SIBTHORP said he would adopt in reference to
this measure but one course, and that was the consistent
course, and the same that he had pursued in reference to the
grant to the College of Maynooth. He did hope that the
Hon. -Member for Oxford would take a division on his
amendment; and ► here, let him say, that he did think
that the Protem tent religion was much indebted
to that Honours ble Member for the manner in
which he had defeat led it. With regard to this measure he
would sit down by a tying, that he would support the sug-
gestion of the Hon. Umber for Oxford, becauss lie feared
that to leave the mei tura of the Right Honourable Baronet
unsupported would bays the effect of undermining the Pro-
testant religion in ti tis country.
Captain HARRIS said he quite agreed with many Hon.
Members that many of these. penal Acts should be repealed;
but at the same tine e he should oppose the present measure,
because he conceived it to be too general a measure.
Lord J. RUSSELL , said he wished to put a question to the
mover of the Bill. e would wish to know whether certain
penalties which had b ern alluded to would be repealed ?
Mr. ESCOTT said he would be very glad to introduce a
clause to the effect it st: abolishing those penalties, though he
believed that in the,. existing state of the law these penalties
could not be enforc a d.—(Cries of " Divide, divide.")
Mr. P. HOWA 'D said the lion. Member opposite was
mistaken as to the e xisting law in reference to Jesuits.
Mr. B. ESCOT' C -replied. He said the Bill would contain
a clause to prevent ; processions of Roman Catholics in this
country, which sho raid have a malicious or offensive tendency.
He had heard Hot e Members contend that other Acts affect-
ing other persuash ins injuriously ought to be repealed. He
fully agreed with t liem ' • but then he would say, in reference
to the Acts wh ioh this Bill proposed to repeal, that
they were either in `ssolete or penal, and in either case
they should be repeal 'ed.—(Hear, hear.) If they were obso-
lete, then they were s so use, and ought to be abolished; and
if they were penal, t hen that was a still stronger reason for
their repeal.—(Loud t cries of " Divide, divide.")
Strangers were thez ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there al 'peered—
For the second reading
Against it .....
.Majority I's k r the second reading —43
MANCHESTER, I lUDDERSFIELD, AND GREAT
GRIMSB Y DIRECT RAILWAY.
This Bill was read a'. second time.
OUT-PENSIONERS' PAYMENT (GREENWICH AND
eE ELSEA) BILL.
Mr. SIDNEY HER:, BERT moved the second reading of
this Bill.
Captain PECHELL briofly expressed his dissent from
the principles of ti ;is Bi 11, as its operation was by no
means calculated to 1 penefit the interests of, or
to give satisfaction to, tho sse veterans.
Mr. SIDNEY HI eRBEI .IT defended the Bill as a measure
that would inflict r bare ,ship on the pensioners, but rather
be a means of prot. scti.ng, them. The Secretary-at-War had
no power to withho grant pensions, but it was provided
that the payments aloe Id be made through him. Instead of
pensions being paid, s hitherto, by a clumsy and cumberous
process, they would be paid directly by a staff officer, under
the general superintes sele, see of the Secretary-at-War.
After a few remarki fro' U. Captain PECRELL; the Bill was
read a second time ai ,d ot elered to be committed on 'Friday
next.

SUPPLY.

The- House then resi dyed itself into a Committee of Supply,
when, on the motion i if -
The CHANCELLI )R C f the EXCHEQUER, 800,000/.
was voted to the use f her Majesty.
THE METRO 'W. ,ITAN BUILDINGS BILL.
This Bill was read third time and passed.
The report on the Siauth Sea Company's Bill was then
brought up, and agreei I.'to,
LACE 'FACTORIES BILL.
Mr. THOMAS S. I DUNCOMI3E presented a petition
from 3,426 individuals' engaged in lace factories, praying the
House to pass a Bill fil r the limitation of, the hours of night
labour in all factories, where bobbins a.'ad net and warp lace
machinery was in 13 se. They stated that the present
hours of labour fere so long that their health
and morals were ( les
tternoYetdn,
ightnt.d they prayed that
the Horse might 'Ass' a Bill to et.orten their hours of labour
per day,. comme Acirli at six 'o'clock in the morning and
closing a t not la'zer that , ll
Ordererl to 'de or t the% table.
The Ho. N. Abu man 1 hen, introduced a Bill grounded on
the above p etitio a, eald
that AI
petition had been received by,
the House he is, ved. tbal, rtr , opposition would be offered to
the Bill.
Sir JAMES; GR &BAY- had aliv:ays bad an objection to
interfering witl , the hour sof laboui. The Hon. Gentleman
had stated veil
• fair ly,f.aat. he had not refused his assent to
such a Bill as I
this being brer,ght in. ;He did this because
until he , had enj rayed au opportunity of considering
its provisions; l• ie , had always understood that the
. lace trade was " different, from those in which the bulk
of the business; in. which. machinery was the chief means of
production; In d that,' therefore, there was not the same
objection to lon g hours in this , business ; but when the Bill
was brought ik he would be-able to state more explicitly his
opinion respei Ail -ig it. ' .
Mr. FOSTEI t said that ;the Bill thus announced was
in direct °ppm ition •to the rules , which had always
been laid down,l of not interfering between the adult labourer
and his employee .It was going in the teeth of all they had
been doing durin; -, the last twelve years. He had another ob-
jection to this Bil, i, for it appeared thst it would allow children
of tender age to 43 er.giged during the excessive hours of from
six in the evenin'; i; till ten,at night; and he thought, there-
fore, that it VI out dbe but wise, in the Hon. Gentlemen who
were about to brie .. ig in this Bill, to attend to this particular
_ e .
: Colonel ROLROLLS:STON.had observed with Pleasure that
t
thethe menma steerfs similar
andli 4:
h lion. Gentle•an oppoi,ite had presented a petition from
eepsihriotutlodtbheathwaphpr
tohegihvaedh-ptsrefseeenbtled i
presented from
greatthe p rsonmeost.ii
lona i V;
taatn yo
fmeas whichuret
hiveh iplit-itNiveans e
rlikely o
both
ho abateesros
o7edthine number of and men, compl led. •'• - • '
Mr. HEATH Cl )TE stated, that he had found it beneficial
nuoffaehteour3rl
he
wtohiehhis
theor' pets ris u S were employed in
, , re sis to reduce
would support the lintroduction of.the Bill.
Mr. T. DU ~S7r,s, )MBE, said that the proposal of his BM was
pet
not to com. .t' a persons employed in the lace and
1.
bobbin.net manufacture to - work for sixteen
trade
hours a d to prevent them workinm at all
but . , ~,
hours of the ,' Tio bought it would be better, in Q01)80-
queue of th 0 Pt. '4.- v., DV'. of the prevent cue, tbott? prof
reoilias nisi•-. . - •
.

the secondreading of the Bill, a Committe should be appointed
to inquire-into the circumstances of the case.
Mr. FEILDEN said it had been proved that in many
cases young children were compelled to work twenty hours
a-eay, and that with two sets of hands, who worked ten
hours each ; he thought that there could be no necessity for
such night work when there was so much machinery.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, perhaps the Hon. Member would
allow some time to elapse before the second reading, in order
that he (Sir J. Graham) might have an opportunity of
making some inquiry With regard to this very important
subject, as considerable caution was required before any alte-
ration could be introduced.

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. BROTHER roN moved for a return of the number of
bricks upon which duty has been paid in each year, between
the sth day of January, 1838, and ;the sth day of
January 1846, in England and Scotland ; distinguish-
ing the number of bricks upon which duty has been paid
in each county, and the amount paid thereon respectively
(in continuation of Parliamentary paper No.- 217, of session
1838).—Agreed to.
Captain PECHELL moved for copies of all letters from the
Poor-law Commissioners and the Assistant Commissioner,
from the 2?d day of March 1842, to the 7th day of November,
1845, respecting the erection or alteration of buildings or
places for mills or other machinery for the purpose of
grinding bones and preparing bone dust ; likewise, copies of
all rules, orders, or letters issued to the several boards of
guardians resi.eding the employment of vagrants and part-
rs in pounding a grinding bones.—Agreed to.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at half-past Five.

WEST LONDON RAILWAY.
(THIS DAY.)
The half-yearly meeting of the proprietors of this rail-
way was held at one o'cleck this day, at the London Tavern,
fur the transaction of the ordinary businesa'of the company.
But 'a small number of shareholders were present. H. H.
Grounds, Kiel., occupied the chair.
The advertisement convening the meeting having been
read; and the seal of the company affixed to the register of
proprietors, - •
The CHAIRMAN said he had great pleasure in meeting
the proprietors, as the directors had succeeded
in bringing the affairs of the company into a very
small compass. They had indeed hoped to have had it
in their power to have report3cl this day that their affairs
had been finally wound up, but circumstances had prevented
the full accomplishment cf so desirable an object. They,
however, fully expected that the two or three small out-
standing matters would be satisfactorily arranged in the
course of a few weeks, when, as he stated at the last
meeting, the expenses of conducting the business of the
Company would be reduced to the lowest limit consistent
with the proper protection of their property and interests.
He'was happy to inform them that the lease of the line
to the London and Birmingham Company had
at • length been executed, and that the counterpart
was then on the table. The delay which had occurred in
getting this important matter concluded, though it had
caused the directors . a good deal of anxiety,
had been unavoidable. In the expectation of
being able to lay before them the award .of Mr.
Hudson; Mr. Glynn, and Mr. Stephenson in the' matter
of the reference respecting. the shares, they delayed calling
the meeting until the last day allowed by the Act of
Parliament. It , had, however, been found impossible
to get it ready in time. They were assured, however,
that it was in the course of preparation, and as
soon as they received it, a special general meeting
would be called for the .purpose of submitting it to them. A
delay of no more than two or three weeks would take place.
A Bill had been introduced into Parliament for the
London and Birmingham and Great Western Companies
jointly,. for the improvement cf this railway and for
extening it to the Thames, and he believed that, not-
withstanding a temporary obstacle, it would receive the sanc-
tion of the Legislature. The line which had been adopted
was on the opposite side cf the Kensington Canal to that pro-
posed last year, iii order to avoid the estate of Lord Kensington.
As soon as this extension line was constructed, and they were
informed that the works would only occupy a short time,
they might expect a large traffic from both the London and
Birmingham and Great Western Railways over their present
line to the Thames. TLe traffic on the Kensington Canal
had greatly increased, and they were of opinion that a farther
accession would take place, but they considered that it would
be necessary, during the ensuing summer, to expend a sum
of money in permanently repairing it, and as soon as they
had ascertained what surplus would remain out of the
60,0001. to be received from the London and Birmingham
Comany, they proposed to call a special meeting of the
shareholderS and to bring the subject before them.
The SECRETARY then read the report, which was simply
an echo of the Chairman's address. _ _

A statement of the reCeipts and disbursements for the
twelve months ending 31st December, was next submitted to
the meeting, of which the following is an abstract :—Re-•
ceipts to June 30, 236,7401. 3s. 7id. ; London and Birming-
ham Company, on account of purchase-money. 3,7111. ss. 60. ;
interest on debentures due Dec. 18, 1845 received from that
Company, 497/. Bs. ld ; calls on original and first-class
preferred shares, 105/. 16s, 10d. ; furniture and share
account, 81/. 17s. 5d.; Kensington canal traffic and
canal and railway rents, 397/. 10s. 6d.; drainage 50/.; total,
261,5841.15. op. Disbursements to June 30, 256,307/. 14s. 11d.
General disbursements, including land and compensation in-
terest on debentures and debentures paid off, gratuity of
5001. to secretary, &c., 5,0041. ss. 4d.; leaving a balance in
hand of 272/. Os. 90.
On the motion of Mr. GuNTER, seconded by Mr. HENRY,
the report was received and adopted.
. . . .

In the course of a prolonged discussion it was elicited that
the Bill introduced into Parl;ament had a twofold object,
namely, to carry the line on to the Thames, and across the
Great Western -Railway to the Paddington Canal, where
it would form a junction with the London and Birmingham
Railway. One or the plans which had been deposited at the
Board of Trade had been lost. lt specified the way which they
proposed to cross the Great Western Railway, and could not
therrfore affect the proposed extensious. They had, however,
no reason to apprehend that this accident would prevent the
• ultimate passing of the Bill. They would participate in the
benefits wising from these extensions without contributing
anything towards their construction. .Some disapprobation
was expressed at the execution of the plans of the line by
Mr. Chappins, the draughtsman to the London and Birming-
ham Company, - instead of Mr. Goodwin, the gentle-
man whom they employed, but it was explained
apparently to the satisfaction of the shareholders, that as
Mr. Chappins had executed imilariplans for the Birthing-
ham Company, which were approved of by that body, time
and expense might be saved by employing him to furnish
them with copies, and that Mr. noodwin had seen them,
and was satisfied of their accuracy. However the plans
were ordered to be forwarded to that gentleman, in order
that he might go carefully over them again. •
Mr. WHITE considered that the Queen would rather travel
in herjourneys to and from Windsor by tiv.ir line from
junction with the Great Western toa station as contiguo us
to Buckingham Palace as possible instead of going to
Paddington. By using the West London Railway, her Ma•
jesty would save several miles over her ordinary route. •
On the motion of Mr. RIGBY, 595 shares, which stood on
the books in the name of the Secretary (Mr. Thompson),
were ordered to be merged in the undertaking.
Mr. GUNTER movai that the deed be printed, 'and -the
plans annexed lithographed and circulated amongst th 3
shareholders, which was seconded by Mr. J. WIIITE, and
carried.
The retiring directors having been re-elected, and votes of
thanks passed to the chairman and directors, and Mr. Rigby,
for the assistance which he rendered to the Company in the
preparation of the deed, and suitably acknowledged, the
meeting separated.

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.
THE FRENCH STEEPLE CHASE.
Weights for the Grand French Steeple Chase.
Pioneer, 12st Blb
Vanguard,
tifearaligli:ez,l,
list
tltt
34113:b1 b Lancet, list
ilawkstone, list
Pledge, lOst 131 b
Recruit, lost 101')
TheACuurs e Foxberry, lOst 121 b
Crcesus, list 101 b Ragman, 10,,t 12'b
Tiger, list 81b Eugene Sue, 10d i Ilb
Eagle, llet 71b Regalia, lOst 10Ib
Alice Grey, list 61b Saerifice, lOst 101 b
Chance, lift 41b The Spy, lOst 101 b
Patriot,' llst 41b Coheiress, lOst 101 b
Culvertborpe, 1 Ist 41b Grace Darling, lOst 91b
Forester, list 21b Mayday, 10st 71b
Cottonian; 1 Ist 21b The Kicker, lOst Mb
The: Premier, llst 21b Wilton, lOst 41b •
The Hack; llst 21b Little Tommy, lOst 31b
Jack, list 21b - Consul, lOst
Latitat, list Candle, lOst
Discord, 11 st Veluti, 9st 10'b
Carlon, list Scavenger, 9st 71b
The. Roarer, I Ist , Artful Dodger, 9d 21b
Alice Gray, 5 yrs old, as named by Mr. Crethieux, is
a wrong nomination, and nil' pay forfeit.
To declare forfeit before five P.M. of the 20th instant.

(RECEIVED THIS DAT.)
BETTING AT MANCHESTER-TUESDAY.

THB TuteISTWESA; CovENTRIT.-6 to 4 asst /antass (t).
CHESTER CUP. —l7 to 1 agst Sweetmeat (t), 22 to 1 agst Miss Burns
(take S 5 to 1), 25 to 1 aget Mermaid, 25 to 1 agst The Baron, 25 to 1
agst Best Bower (t), 25 to 1 agst Clumsy (take 2S to 1), 25 to I agst
Fitzallon (t), 50, to 1 agst Crim. Con., 50 to 1 agst Miss Elis, 50
to 1 agst St. Lawrence, 1,000 to 10 agst Mervis (t).
DERBY. —5 to 1 aget Sting (t), 15 to 1 agst 13rocardo (t),23 to 1 agst
lago (t), 25 to 1 agst Tlbthorpe (t), 40 to 1 agst Fancy Boy (2), 50 to
1 agst Nutbourne (t).

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. II
MOUSE OF LORDS, March 10.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at
the usual hour.
IRISH PACIFICATION BILL.
Lord DENMAN agreed with his Noble Friend (the Earl of
Wicklow) that a great hardship would be imposed on those
persons who would be taken up under the Bill, unless a pro-
vision was made. If a sessions was only to be held once a
week, accused parties, besides being confined for three or four
days in miserable and badly-ventilated eelle, would often have
to wa k twenty miles, in order to be examined. He would
wish the Noble Earl (the Earl St. Germans) to state what
he intended to do respecting gaol accommodation, which at
present was so very bad.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS said that difficulty could be
overcome by making temporary accommodation at the police
stations, for parties that might be waiting for examination.
The expense of this could not be very great.
Lord DENMAN remarked that there was no such place
adopted at present.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS said the difficulty stated fre-
quently existed under the present administration of the law, but
it could be met by attaching accommodation to the police stations.
Lord 111 ONTEAGLE said that the question of commitment
in the present case was totally different from that of any other.
In case the party who was apprehended had an erten- unity of
defending himself, and had the power of exonerating him-
self, he, in common with his Noble Friends, objected to
his being conFned for seven days and seven eights
in the police station before he could prove his inno-
cence. Let them not teal too harshly. Let them
nut add any unnecessary severity to this severe enactment.
He would suggest that no unnecessary harshness should be em-
ployed to increase the difficulties attendant on the measure, and
be b dieved that this could be done without impeding the prac-
tical operation of the Bill. .
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he should be very
sorry that this Bill should go to the other House of Parliament
under such circumstances, to create an impression that it had
not received the general assent of all the Members of that
House. He would, therefore, propose to the Noble Lord, that
the consideration of the question should stand over until Thurs-
day, and he would endeavour by that time to see if a clause
could lie passed so as to remove the difficulty.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that he cordially
agreed with the Noble Lord who had spoken on his side of the
House. He believed that it was important that one magistrate
should have the power of discharging any man, who might have
been arrested by the stupidity or partiality of the police. He
did not attach one single particle of evil to such a power, for
if a magistrate were afraid to do his duty by discharging or
committing a prisoner, as occasion required, he ought to be
discharged from the commission of the peace, and the country
would be benefited by his. removal. Great and serious mis-
chief had been done by the timidity of magistrates on the one
hand, and the oppression of magistrates on the other. The
magistrate need not make it a matter of necessity to commit
the man on.his own authority, he might wait for the decision
of other magistrates; by such a course he would
not render himself obnoxious. The magistrate might
hold the prisoner to bail, if he did not think proper to dismiss
him.—( Hear, hear.) He for one hoped that, if the law was
to be altered, the alteration might be printed by Thursday, so
as to be easily attainable by their Lordships.
Earl ST. GERMANS said that he did not consider that
the clause, as now proposed, would be any hardship upon indi-
viduals. If the alteration proposed were carried into effect, it
would be difficult to get magistrates to act together. It was
quite clear that this course would not be judicious, because if a
man wile should be bailed were really conscious of his guilt, be
would certainly make his escape. The proposition now before
the House was, that the power shall be given to one magis-
trate to admit to bail, or to discharge, or to commit ; which
would, in fact, be making that magistrate the sole judge of the
man's guilt or innocence, and this result might be that a most
dangerous character might lie let loose upon society.
The Duke of RICHMOND was opposed to the suggestion of
the Noble Lord on the Woolsack. It would really be too had
to have a man taken twenty miles to the county gaol,
and twenty miles back again, and then have
his innocence proved. He was, therefore, in
favour of a prisoner being taken before a magistrate imme-
diately, and to take bail for him, or discharge him, if he had a
prima facia case, or to convict him if there should be a clear
case against him. If there was an objection to one magistrate
acting in this capacity, it would amount to saying that the Irish
magistrates were rot fit for the discharge of their duty. If the
Noble Lord should press his motion to a divisionsshe would cer-
tainly support him.
The Earl of DEVON hoped that the Lord Chancellor would
postpone his motion.
The Marquis of NORTHAMPTON thought that if they
wished the law to be respected in Ireland they would not add
any unnecessarily severe clauses to the measure under consi-
deration. He did not agree with the remark that the magis •
trates would by the amendment of the Noble Lord (Earl of
Wicklow) be constituted the judges of the crime!; he would only,
after all, be'required to judge whether the individual taken be-
fore him should be bailed or not.
Earl ST. GERMANS said he did not wish to pees, the
clause against the wishes of Noble Lords. He should there-
fore withdraw it for the purpose of its being re-considered.
The Earl of WICKLOW was perfectly convinced, from the
discussion that had taken place that night, that the clause in
its present state would never have been carried. He was,
however, satisfied with the admission made by the Noble Earl,
and would not press it to a division. He trusted that they could
send the measure to the other House in a better state than
many of the Bills emanating there came up to them.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that by the Bill, as it at
present stood, parties were to be brought up before the petty
sessions, who were to decide upon the evidences of their crime?
The difficulty was that the' petty sessions might not sit for a
week, arid, therefore, the Noble Earl suggested that they shou d
be carried at once before two magistrates, who would decide
whether they should go before the petty sessions or not. lily
the present amendment, it was desired that the magistrate
should at once either discharge, or send them for trial, without
the intervention of the petty sessions. He confessed that, of
the two, he preferred the course which had been usually fol-
lowed in similar Bills.
After i few words from the Marquis of CLANRICARDE,
Earl GREY suggested that if tke Bill was seed a third
time, it should be reprinted as it hatbeen amended.
The Earl of St. GERMANS said that he had proposed at
first to bring up "the report on Thursday evening, when the
amendments could have been printed, and had only consented
to bring it up to-night at the strong suggestion of their Lord-
ships, so that no time might be lost. He would take care that
the Bill should be printed before the third reading.
The amendments under consideration were then agreed to.
The Earl of St. GERMANS then proposed that the 16th
clause, respecting the "arrestment of persons," should be
amended with the addition of the words " under suspicious cir-
cumstances,' when, after a few words from
Lord CAMPBELL against the severity of the clause,
Lord COTTINGIIAM thought that there was no analogy
whatever between this Act and the Whiteboy Act. This was
much more severe and oppressive, and applied a more stringent
punishment to offences of a less venial kind.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the operation of the
Act referred to by the Noble Lard applied to the country
generally, but this Act would only affect disturbed districts, and
-consequently ought to be more revere
Lord CAMPBELL said that the offence which was
punished by this Act with transportation, was, by the White-
boy Act only treated as a misdemeanour, and punished w ith
fine and imprisonment.
After a desultory conversation between thy Lord Chancellor,
Lord Cottingham, the Earl of St. Germans, and the Earl of
Wicklow, the clause was agreed to.
The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to ; the
Bill, as amended, was ordered to be reprinted, and the report
on the amended Bill to be brought up on Thursday,
The third reading was fixed for Friday.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 10.
EDUCATION IN WALES.
Mr. WILLIAMS then rose, in pursuance of notice, to
move than an address be presented to her Majesty for inquiry
to be made into the state of education in the principality of
Wales, with the means afforded to the labouring classed of ac-
quiring a knowledge of the English language. He said that the
state of education in Wales was much more neglected and
deficient than in any ether part of the United Kingdom.
The consequence was, that there were no works produced
amongst that people which had been an addition to literature
for ages, neither had there been any translations of English
works into their language, either on literature, the arts, and
sciences, especially in those most important to the interests of
mineralogy, agriculture, or the useful arts. That was the
position in which they were placed, and he thought until the
Gwernment sh suld have taken measures for such an intro-
duction of the English language as would - increase
the intelligence and information of the community
in general throughout the principality of Wales,
no great improvement was likely to take place.
His motion only asked for an inquiry in the same way as had
been grantel to England and Scotland. A Committee had
been appointed to inquire into the system of education in
England and Wales, and many valuable reports resulted from
that inquiry so far as England was concerned. Now
out of all this inquiry only one part of Wales
was alluded to. Why that was the case he could
not tell. The report from that district, however, gave such a
statement of the destitute state of education, that he considered
it binding upon her Majesty's Government to remedy the evil.
There were 250,000 children in the principality of Wales, from
the age of fourteen years downwards, who ought to receive
education, and who were at present, in a great measure, with-
out the means of obtaining it. He had received various letters
on the subject, in one of which it was stated, that
of the 25,000 children a very large proportion of
theta received no education, or of so inferior a description,
it may be only called nominal. That Gentleman states,
that those 250,000 children had immortal souls, and they were
left without the means of receiving a proper education. In
Merthyr Tydvil, and four parishes in Monmouthshire, con-
sisting of 85,000 inhabitants, he states, that the means for
affording education in those parishes consisted of forty•seven
schools, thirty-three of which were for children, and there
remained 8,026 who received no education whatsoever.
Many of these schools had masters who were themselves the
most ignorant men, and, of course, were incapable of giving
instructions to those under their care. He could give mane
proofs of what he had stated to the House, but he
would not take up the time of the Hon. Members by
reading more than one or two of the statements
which he • had received in confirmation of the state
of education in that portion of her Majesty's dominions.
Sixteen of the masters of those schools were unsuc-
cessful in retail trades. Eleven masters were miners or
labourers, and only ten had received any education with a
view of becoming fitted for the instruction of youth.
Four were dissenting preachers, and such was the mode
by which at present the schools in Wales were governed.
Ho states that the instruction afforded to the children of the
labouring classes could not be expected to have much per-
manent effect, either in raising their habits or correct-
ing their dispositions. He found the greatest dis-
position among the people to avail themselves of instruction,
and the district to which he had alluded, contained eighty
Sunday schools, at which a large number of adults attended
for several hours of the day, in order to be enabled to read
their bible.—( Hear, hear.) He would refer the House to the
statement of Mr. Tremaherne. In making his statement as to
the mental destitution of the people, he said, the men engaged
in the furnaces and in the mills got from 255. to 60s. a week
wages. The miners and colliers got. 21e. to 255. ; the artisans
lbs. to 245. ; and the commonest labourer 12s. to 18s. Now,
what was the mental condition of that population, so physically
well off? Mr. Tremaherne said scarcely one instance existed
among those men earning 50s. a week of any savings being
Made. He said that these men, industrious to the last degree,
were so destitute of mental means of enjoyment that they were
obliged to resort to the public- house, and there they spent their
earnings. It might be asked,what was the cause of all this apathy
and indifference towards this people ? He could not answer the
question; but it appeared to him snore than extraordinary to
perceive etch indifference practised towards a mass of
people who needed so much moral, mental, and, he would
add, physical improvement. He very much feared that some
strong feeling of indifference prevailed amongst the gentry and
landed proprietary of the country ; and though there were, to
his own knowledge, many most excellent and worthy
gentlemen amongst them, yet, he should adhere to
what he had originally stated. He had no doubt if
the landed proprietors were compelled, as were the gentry
of Scotland at one period, to form schools in the various
diatriets„ that the outlay would be tenfold repaid them, not t

alone by the improved habits, and superior manners of the
people, but also by the superior style of cultivation
which they then would be certain to practice.
He should state that there existed the most intense desire
amongst the people of Wales to possess the means of acquiring
a knowledge of the English language. In support of this he
begged to refer to the report of her Majesty's Commi,sioners
appointed to inquire into the state of the principality of Wales.
The Hon. Member then read an extract from the reports of
the Committee appointed to enquire into the state of educa-
tion in North and South Wales, which set firth that the it ant
of a knOwledge of the English language by the inhabitants of
the principality was a great drawback to their improvement, as
it prevented the proper working of the laws, the administra-
tion of justice, and threw great difficulties in the way of the
essertions of the Church of England and its members.
There were but few churches, and so low was
the state of !corals as to almost cripple individual
exertions, the consesi:Sence was that many farmers and their
fee reach of improvement. They
families were almost bestow.;
also attributed the recent poi;steal excitement to the
ignorance amongst the people. The i'Z.Tort wa' signed by
gentlemen of great influence, whose authority was sufficient
to induce the House and the Government give
the
.subject the earliest and filest considera.'Qn•
If he could induce her Majesty's Government and that House
to confer upon the people of this country the benefits of a-
sown', education, the beneficial results would be beyond
calculation. Ile would now call the attention of the Right
Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State to the' statements made
by the gentlemen ho had named. 'fhey said that the want of
the knowledge of the English language, arising from a
want of proper education presented the most serious obstacles
to the administration of justice. It were impossible
for him to furnish evidence more striking of the
consequences of the want of education than those
statements appeared to be. If the House wished, he
could multiply such statements a hundred fold ; but
he would just confine himself to two or three per-
sons who were well known to that House, and to
the country, and who he was sure would receive that attention
they deserved. He would beg leave to quote the opinion
of -a gentleman, who was in an especial manner
worthy of their attention. Ile meant the gentleman who was
sent by the Times newspaper to Wales to inquire into the dis-
turbances which prevailed there some few years ego. He was
in that country for a considerable period of time ; he was a
gentleman of high education, a barrister, and one who was
peculiarly qualified fur investigating into the condition of the
people. He was the same gentleman who was lately sent to
Ireland under the name of the Times' Commissioner,
and who had sent to this country those very able
reports which had appeared in the Times. He
meant Mr. Forster. The Hon. Member went on to read an
extract from the reports which had appeared in the Times
newspaper a few years ago with respect to the disturb-
ances in Wales. That gentleman stated, that after a long
sojourn in that country, he had found that the state of
the education of the people was lamentably deficient,
which was the main cause of the disturbances which had
broken out, and that they were, in fact, completely destitute of
that which led to improvement and civilisation—complete and
sound education. He also stated that there could be no ex-
tensive, sound, and feasible plan of education, unless it were
based upon the principle of waking the English lan-
guage the only means of communication.—( Hear, hear. )
The useful sciences, and indeed the whole principle of ad-
vancement depended upon, the cultivation of the English lan-
guage. The Welsh people were well aware of this circum-
stance, and were exceedingly anxious to obtain the means of
teaching their children English. This, he was convinced, was
the only means which opened the road to promotion. He there-
fore thought that this was the only way to increase the pros-
perity of the country, and to render the people permanently
happy. He would now add to the testimony of this gentleman,
other evidence of great importance. It was the testimony of
a gentleman, distinguished alike from his high position, and
for the extent of his attainments as a scholar, and his char-
acter as a man. He alluded to one high in the estimation of
the Bench of Bishops. He meant the Bishop of St. David s.
In one of his late charges that learned functionary had stated,
for the instruction of his clergy, that it was a remarkable cir-
cumstance, which had come to his knowledge, that several of
the children of the Welsh in, the rural districts, from their
knowledge of the English language, had been the mail means
of instructing their parents in the principles of morality and
religion. He thought, therefore, that the utmost efforts
should be made to extend the knowledge of the English lan-
guage throughout the whole of the Principality, for he
believed it depended greatly upon this means of communica-
tion being extended, ehether the Welsh community advanced
or retrograded in religious knowledge. Now he (Mr. Williams)
thought that no better testimony could be given than this for
the promotion of the English language. All these circum-
stances combined to convince him, and to show that the only
means of promoting extensive usefulness was the one which
the Learned Prelate bad pointed out ; and he trusted that the
same feeling which had been exhibi-ed in these reports would
find a response within the walls of the House, and that it
would be carried out to the remotest parts of the United
Kingdom. The lion. Member then proceeded to read another
statement, and he would state, as an apology fur trespassing
so long on the patience of this House, that it was the first time
that this House had been called upon to consider the education
in Wales. The statement to which the Hon. Member referred
was written by a proprietor and editor of one of the leading
journals in Wales, and who was intimately acquainted with the
condition of the people of that country, and who had written
many articles in favour of establishing a better system of edu-
cation in that country. He had stated, when referring to the
late " Rebecca" disturbances, that such a violation of the law
betokened the general state of uneasiness and disaffection in
the country, and proceeded to say that if the people had been
acquainted with the English language, and had had a proper
education, instead of being, as they then were, a prey to designing
hypocrites, with religion on their lips and wickedness at their
hearts, they would be, from their geographical position, and
their great natural advantages, the best, the happiest, the
most peaceful, and the most prosperous people on the face of
the earth. He (Mr. Williams) considered these remarks as a
strong evidence in favour of extending en improved system of
education to that country. The present state of education in
Wales was well known, and when he saw these proofs of the
existing state of ignorance, he was compelled to ask himself,
what could these people he doing to allow themselves,to re-
main in such a state? A great portion of the people of the
north of Scotland and the north of Ireland, were in the came
condition as the people of Wales. What would be the conse-
quence of an improved system of education? What had Scot-
land done for herself ? An Act was passed in 1833, far este
Wishing schools in Scotland. A tax was imposed upon the
landowners to defray the expenses . attending these
schools, and hew well had they been repaid' for
their outlay. The prosperity of that country was
,
principally owing to the improved system of education
' which bad been so successfully introduced. There were
in that country an average of three schools •to each parish.
But not content With having done all that for the instruction
of the people, they had also appointed a Committee to inquire.
and report to the Council on Education as to the working of
the system. Every means were taken to give effect to those
schools that the Government could possibly adopt. Although
he had always been an advocate for curtailing public expendi-
ture, yet he never on any occasion ceased to advocate the out-
lay of public money for the purpose of education in any part
of the United Kingdom. Now, as he said before, the conse-
quence of the system of education in Scotland had made the
people of that country the most intelligent of any people in
Europe. Let them talk to whom they would, they would hear
it stated how intelligent and how industrious were the Scotch.
What had they done for Ireland? They had done for Ireland
what reflected the highest credit on the Government.
They had done that which, in his opinion, would re-
move many of the evils and the crimes which
' existed there, because they were of a social character and
would be removed by education. He would just relate to the
House what had been done for Ireland. ' So early as the reign
of Henry VIII. an Act of the English
•Parliament was passed
to establish schools in' every parish in Ireland. .Subsequent
Acts were passed in the reigns of Elizabeth, George 1.,
George 11., and George 111., but the system of education
provided by those Acts being of a sectarian nature were con-
sequently unsuccessful ; but in 18C6 the Crown appointed a
Commission to inquire into the funds and revenues granted by
public bodies for the purpose of education, and also into the
state of public schools in Ireland. Subsequent Commissions
were issued, and their reports were submitted to a Committee
of that House, and in the year 1831 a most extended
system of education was founded on the report of 'that
Committee, a system which has already produced the
most beneficial results. Schools were immediately
put into operation, and the result was that in the year 1841
nearly half a million of poor Irish children were receiving the
blessings of education ; and he had no doubt that in 1846 the
amount was doubled. The Government established normal
schools, which were attended by two professors, who gave lec-
tures on the art of teaching and conducting _schools, in the
English language, and in geography ; and there were now ex-
periments carried out which would unite the instruction of
agriculture. Last year there was voted, for the building of
three colleges in Ireland, the sum of 100,0001., and a further
sum of 21,0001. for endowment, and 26,0001. for the repairs of
the College of Maynooth. It might be said that the clergy cf
Wales ought to provide for the education of the people. They
' were too poor to do so. In ten parishei in Carmarthenshire
the tithes were 5,9351., and out of that 2,2261. went
into the pockets of the proprietore, thus leaving
only 7001. for the clergy of' these parishes.—(Hear.)
He had seen a report of a meeting of clergymen in January
last, for the purpose of education in Wales, in which they la-
mented that no feeling had been manifested by the laity for
that object, and that all the money that had been subscribed
had been obtained from the clergy. He hoped that the House
would not throw any difficulty in the way of his proposed in-
quiry. Ho did not wish the House to believe his single state-
ment. The most irrefragable testimony shall be furnished of
the destitute state of the Welsh people with respect to educa-
tion, and of their strong desire to be properly instructed. If
the landed proprietors were compelled to establish schools on
their several estates, he (Mr. Williams) had no doubt that in
a little time they would be amply repaid for their trouble and
original outlay of expense. He had never conversed with any
intelligent Welshman who did not bear testimony to the uni-
versal dearth of education among his fellow-countrymen.
There existed no portion of this empire which was more at-
tached to the institutions and habits of the English than the
Welsh people. It would excite the deepest sympathy and
commiseration in that House, if he were to relate some
of the circumstances that had occurred in Wales
with respect to the administration of justice in
that country. All the proceedings in the courts of law were
conducted in the English language, which was a language that
the people; to a very great extent, were unacquainted with.
The judge charged the jury in English—the counsel addressed
them in the same language—and the most farcical and some-
times melancholy occurrences frequently happened in conse-
quence. He ( Mr. Williams) had heard from one of the local
magistrates that he had very frequently known the jury give a
verdict in direct opposition to the evidence of the witnesses and
the direction of the judge. When the jury were asked why it
was that they had given so strange a verdict, the reply was in-
variably that they did not sufficiently understand the English
language to know exactly what was going forward, and there-
fore they considered it remit: be advisable to give the prisoner
the benefit of their ignorance, and acquit him. A case had
happened of a man convicted of a crime for which he was sen-
tenced to be hanged. While the judge was passing sentence,
the prisoner looked round and inquired what tke judge was say-
ing. When informed that sentence of death was being passed,
the prisoner seemed astonished, and immediately declared that
the witnesses had sworn falsely against him, which,
after a further investigation, was discovered to be the
fact. He (Mr. Williams) would trouble the House
with one more circumstance. A person surrendered to take
his trial for a felonious assault. On the jury being empanneled,
it was notified to the Court that eleven of them did not under-
stand English, upon which the judge observed that the twelfth
juryman could explain the case to his brethren, and the trial
proceeded. The counsel on both sides addressed the jury, and
the judge summed up, and the result was that a verdict Ras
returned against the prisoner, who was sentenced to be krn-
prisoned for 4 months with hard labour. Tbe next morning
eleven of the jury said they were of opinion that the man was
not guilty, and actually signed a memorial to that effect to be
presented to the Secretary of State. He (afar. Williams) bad
not yet heard whether or not the man was discharged from cus-
tody. If there existed in this country any institution of which
they were more proud than any other, it was in the adminis-
tration of justice; but here was a case which could not be
paralleled in the proceedings of any other country. He did
not wish to bring any charge against her Majesty's Govern-
ment.- He was only saying that great neglect towards the
Welsh people had been allowed to take place, which he trusted
would in a abort time be rectified. The people do not ask you

to translate the laws into their language, but they regaels
you to send the English schoolmaster among them that they
may be enabled to understand the laws, and be guided rightly
by them. Why, in the most despotic States, Russia, Austria!
Prussia, and other nations, there existed a more efficacious
and general system of education than in this empire. Loa:
at our neighbours, the French people. 'fheyconueneef!,,lo
1830 under their present enlightened sovereign, and 'll3
continued progressively until the present period to estabmt
an unequaled system of education. This year they have
voted upwards of 700,0001. for the purpose of education among
the Teeple, while we have voted only 73,0001. for the sant!
purpose. If the schoolmaster had been sent into every Ps',
of Wales there would not have been found any
not understanding the administration of the law in and NI
Welsh people would not have been placed in the disgrace
wetO
position &scribed by the Bishop of St. David's, that they
destitute alike in religious instruction and in moral knowleett;
Mr. MORIIIS was of opinion that it was highly desirso_
thst the English language should be more generally knowtt:
Wales, especially as there was now every prospect of ther„ite
countries becoming more intimately connected frone..rio
fmutuel intercourse being increased. The only grant in w;
r educational purposes consisted of thepaltry sum of 4013`__.*
complaiutthoei
to
the college of St. David's. When he considered the laic
egiounts which had been given for a similar purpose to tbets,
nriittheurs, he did think the Welsh people were entitled te4
lareer participation in* the benefits which education wow
confer.
Sir J. GRAiLOI did not intend to trespass on the attentiotes
of the House at any length, nor was he dispossed oltie_een,
the general principle as stated by the Hon. Member• tie, the
tirely agreed in the sentiment that the establishment, re
national system in Ireland had been a most happy circus:o9l7i
It was true that the Scotch owed the high po3ition _Po
to their education, and he considered that it would tend g""es;
to seee:ser the administration of justice in Wales if a n"rehete'
tended knowledge of the English language was introduced t .0,
He did not censider that the lion. Gentleman had done .1.0,
heir
tics to the effort: of Government to promote education "
the Welsh. After the year 1839, the Government elditio_
duty to direct their special attention to the moral conwley
the people in that district, and it had been their earnest! those
your ever since to secure, especially to the working clas'-`st.oled
benefits which it was admitted vould arise from an "lobed
education. A national system of educe:ion had been e9,taod that
in England, Ireland, and Scotland, and Let would to coin
it could also be extended to Wales. But he would not uelikesel
That House would accomplish such a wished-for event. lest
consider, however, that a sectarian or separate educatte„udol
far preferable to having none at all. In the very
•
to by the Honourable Member, after the report of th(?;71
ruittee of Council had been received, there had been estitibdbests
districts"-•
no less than eighty-five schools, and a sum of 10,0001 s pa once/
granted for the purposes of education. What he would PL 'toe
would be that a Committee of the House should send fors" the
in '
inspectors to inquire into the beit means of instruction" gout°
English language, and that they should report to the it
without delay ; the House could then 'pursue what ae"" one it
might deem most proper. For his paFt he was tats
cincerely impressed with the conviction of toe 00
importance of the subject introduced ; adopted
therefore most anxious that some means could be LI ;001
for carrying out the proposed object. lie e')e7,,,01
that the education should not be merely secular. He a "
sever the secular from the religious. The difficulty se
reconcile the two. It was a difficulty which be felt, bet the
would not despair, even to the latest moment of life, thaint d
Government should absolutely fail in the acconiplisreww-ltb-
such an object. If, therefore, the Hon. Member wow' meet
draw his motion he would pledge himself that the Gore; best
should immediately send an inspector to report uPen should
means of effecting the proposed object, and his report
be without delay placed upon the table of the House. nial of
Mr. WILLIAMS would at once consent to the preP,-01iP
the Right Hon. Baronet, but he would remind him io
28,3,000/. were granted for the purposes of eduee'—repre
England. and Wales, only 2,676/. reached the district be, Boomsented, though it contained nearly half a million a' optl'
While Staffordshire, with something about the saw°
lation, received 1.1,0 4.4 to
Mr. WYNN considered he would not be doing Inane
the landed proprietors in Wales if he did not bear his test;
to their exertions in extending education to the reside his oito
their property. In North Wales he could state, from 131 three
knowledge, that there was not a parish without two or three
schools. The exertions of the clergy of the Est tifyini
Church.wav beyond all praise, and they were, it was Kris see:
to state, efficiently seconded by the Weslyans, Hapti, andg? "."
Dissenters. In some parishes the schools were unite"' own'
did not know of one in which there was any host.litl
A bat
tested.W against particularand said that higious opie
wasnior.s.
rejoiced
to totellY
Mr
there was such a desire for education in Wales, isiedeist de'
rejoiced that the Government were anxious to Won' " OW?
sire. -He had experience in his own country of thole. 10
tages of education in the improved habits of the Pee.Po 0,8
former periods that anxiety was not so much felt, Ise. leePlf;
benefits of education were becoming known to the riot
and although the advantages of improved education-sr7rottoe
fully developed, in about ten years they would see that ' orir
was not inferior, but that she was superior, to any otber act°
try in education. The full benefits were not yet to hiititits
but in a short time it would appear in the impreree pro'
of the people—in their greater regard for, d
if!
perty, in their greater respect for truth,, "I'esee.A.
their improved habits of industry, morality, att'urr:
He remembered when the question of education was wtooti°,"
in that House, in the year 1831, that it was then
whether edncation was a benefit or an evil to the Peloostri
would be a great anomaly and disgraceful to the prie•
when every other portion of Europe -had recognised t.:plel
ciele, and the necessity of giving an education to the not tee
a sound system of morality, that the subject should fiss. II -
with the warmest support from her Majesty's Alinist!ted ti3s
the discussion which formerly took place, it was saa'c't, of the,
a necessity existed to promote education by 11'0—,,n as:
:Members of the House. Though he did not lay it de-tioe
fixed or general rule that there should be a mixed edoel,,,,ters'
every country, still he thought that the right to make `ider°
sions for the purposes of mutual conciliations ought t°. poiais
all parties to come to an arrangement on the'd soca
where divided interest and divided religion createo so
opposite feeling between the Catholic and the Protestadjittist
he for one hoped that there would be a school in everiilo
equal to its population. The State made it irriperSt,fili%
every man should be informed, because it made it ini_ctioa
that every one should know the law ; and without ednoseit'
was hard for them to know the law, and thereby avoid sac
ting crime. It was incumbent on every Government of Pi
vance education, and he could perceive that they eling_ito
country was gradually' advancing towards a gater
conciliation. --

The motion was then withdrawn.
THE CHARTIST CONVICTS. • oca bi
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE rose to present a petition, lagroyilig
822 respectable tradesmen, artisans, and householdnaneena
for the liberation of the convicts Frost, Williams,
Sir G. STRICKLAND presented a similar Peti,'aopa.le"
also one signed by the merchants, shopkeepers, 'I
weavers, cordwainers, and spinners of Preston. sreie.,
'nailer r
111 r. FIELDING presented a petition with 3s' _A a 49 ths
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE again rose, and present,'" aof •,if
tions, very numerously signed, praying for the rele:sio sstio,
Chartist convicts. It would be, the Hon. Gentile reed 00
too tedious to enumerate them all, but he wolf.
pelf,
names of a few of the principal petitions osol4°o,
from Exeter, from Bath, from Dundee,
....'frotioutbns tit,
kern Newport, from Bridgewater, Granby, I"°°_„`",l ben'et
from the town of Leeds—altogether 249 petitions ; w". 2 toot the
safely say that they represented the feelings of utnu el 6es
their fellow-subjects. He begged to call the atteatal-0114.dre
House to one petition in particular, which was eigones,;ol.
of the inhabitants of Abergavenny, as among the °and °vela
six of the jurymen who tried Frost, Williarne,,_ t thel,.,o#
The 'person who subscribed that petition states tnstiteyo.,oo
the only six of the jurymen that he saw; and that;opto 'iota
fully signed the petition. Three mere of the PT./ „ joribeir
dead, and two he could not find, and the rerne,nf.,; io to
could not write. They did not attempt to .lanoold"10
petition the conduct of those men—but they saiLiog tot the
the state of the country at the time, and looe „ os.
examples before them, they were humbly of orio'7clisid°oo
chartist convicts should be liberated like ether Ise Peleb
If be could receive the slightest intimation that thotioa obit
would undergo a favourable attention—the att,.en- stoola the
they demanded on the part of the Governmente—Dlioust°,iste
say one word, but leave the question of those iset,looo co° if
Government ; feeling that due justice would he `' airee'oto
eat with the sound policy which such a decision regtbst Pose
the Government could give him any assurance on the
he would willingly desist from the task of bringi wabet
before the House. o°n•, relies
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that if the his I
would send in his statement, be would let him lin" t fine
on the subject. Os' die
dos— • to •
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that it was sonic tdre le here
cuinbent that the House of Commons should iorleoses wool.
alleged grievances of petitioners. There were senionsr aihr, be
the House ought to interfere, and there were Pee and th
stances which justified Members for interferinifvougb
tore
lieved the present was one of that kind, and beh tbo.„,eens
House was bound to do so from the manner in who elerY ;eel
were tried. In the first place, he thought th the oriels
had been taken to induce the Government ,ear w
aarse
extee ere ,40
of the Crown to those misguided persons. Last )tt goo
without end passed through his hands to the Rigior the t".o
Baronet for the purpose of being laid at the fee!tistified 11041
The Government did not then feel themselves
clod feett tee
ceding to the prayer of the petitioners. He looking l'atb°
state that Government would be justified,
vied• soot it
offence for which the parties were tried and On k places their
circumstances under which that conviction troeoi_uod to_f the
once granting a free pardon, which would Mativer'ef,i/
credit and their sense of mercy in using the prerue s
piederss•-,
Crown. He thought that there was a very ge'L e
fact uwoo.
of public feeling on the subject, and that it wag_ 1.:eo, Be_aatbil
throughout the country with reference to theselidej sn'rf,"o $
now ask, what was the reason of that se:clely-eaTi arose
i'aosioo
He believed that it arose from two caner' r the P°l a tot,
doubt that existed in the minds of four.fit'im:aioat tbosioret;
of the country, that the conviction had .le.„. doubt rjoid.
;vas not altogether fair. That there was gre- soti tr„,at tb:
irg their conviction was universally admitted `en !Jr
was not alone felt amongst the people, but ev"
lawyers themselves. Of the fifteen judge!, tvr°3:o'etirtajs.;
point raised was referred, six were of opinionnis. boo
_4.
while nine decided otherwise, if the objectio the
.010:0,
in time. He had not the slightest fault to find
_rd obit such
net in which the trial was conducted; and bed did
tbst „„tis
. • od lippede rail
duce the subject with any party feeling, a •
• cussions 11 0
would not be entertained during this die ogo
tions which he had presented were geues?l:Y__ 000 00,00.0
parties and all classes, and many signed V, Ttlat the
tip
and charitable motives. He had also to sedy theft,t'
h the
of the Crown on that occasion perform:. to the pro woo
manner which did honour to themselves a
who,
Pributettigi::;stil;
to which they belonged. He also admitted
were t
fo
were most ably defended by the Righthlit
oceasi°n. ails
posite, and by the Chief Baron on t ad
-at the tr;
tbcb
well known that a point was reserve
had OW
was referred to the fifteen Judges,
point. He might as well state whatth_,._t°t'he story; If
was reserved, although' he did not think. In'
tleman present would require to know
making a defence against similar charg!sr.a..t letter a' is
was this, that, according to the tbe
law, when any person is indicted forot. high
eel
necessary that a list should be given
n.Pr_weliittnsehstis;
particular period when copies of thehie (mu"
believed he owissbed
sered to the parties indicted. Now,
ere not Alrhe coil, •
in saying that copies of the indictment w T o
the same time when the indictment was re of tkehet tot
the indictment was furnished on Thursclaytioallu
poiat'
Tuesday. No lawyer had any doubt Dame
tits
objectil
both must be delivered at one and the shat,pas the ci so
wwaass
fraetsselrvtoedt,haentdrisailxs, ofanthdeijluindegedseediedeei,di etr4.t_t.t hre
was
valid, but that it was toot made in was ision
the objection t cc _a,
nine positive:3r deciding that on tne Hon w
What was the opinion of the Chief Barone hia ofp:n
_re to
His conduct was creditable to his heart';the caVorWe'our.e.,
equally so to his understanding. Su tilne, he' Frederic;
come before the Chief Baron at the prop,_.,_.. via, Sir _ aeveo
would be of the same opinion as svhe
sr;otdd belie: Queen !
Pollock, and the opinion of the Judge at t ,hse
seven. Were the trial to have take,:
gplitet'ed.
kWnl7O tr!
Bench the prisoner must have been
ta 'aid
wouldthe Judges?e—e
been
hat
good,if thea
and
do bwijeuc
it it onnh,a.live_sef
eb:Fiot.
slo:111j
cetealLibeolttrhi:
tion of the unhappy men. Lord 13ron.,ocaown bad been ble
time
sseit of
must Lords,
have
said,
been held
difgood, the fob
prevented their being liberated. oijodeithr'sotma