The Sun.
London, England, 1846-01-27 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS

Colonel ANSON was opposed to the appointment of the
Select Committee. If they were to hear evidence, &c., on the
different railway bills, their labours would not terminate during
the present session. He would suggest that the Committee pro-
posed should have the classification and grouping of the rail-
way bills, but he should decidedly oppose its appointment if it
were proposed that the Committee should decide upon the im-
portant question that had been alluded to.—( Hear, hear.) He
hoped that the Government would not persist in the present
motion, for he was decidedly of opinion that the Committee
proposed would not.be able to carry out the powers to be vested
in them. Ho was enabled to say this from the intimate
knowledge which he possessed on railway subjects.
Mr. JAMES PARKER believed that whets the public had
read the proceedings of the House that evening, they would come
to the same conclusion to which he had arrived, viz., that a
Select Committee should be appointed in the first instance.—
( Hear, hear.) That Committee would be the means of saving
a considerable sum of money to parties interested in Railway
Bills ; the expenditure consequent upon the delays of the Board
of Trade in the months of May, June, July, and August, of
last year, was immense.—(Hear, hear.) And, after all, the
parties had to go home—in many instances without the slightest
benefit—without any notice whatever whether they should ever
have to attend before the Board again. He, upon these and
other grounds, trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of the Government would have the fortitude to deal with
this matter with resolution and determination. The scheme
contemplated was a most comprehensive one, and he had no
doubt that it would give much satisfaction to the country ge-
nerally.—( Hear, hear.) He denied that the proposition was
an unusual one ; it was no anomalous ease.—( Hear, hear. )
The railway world, he had no &mist, would give the proposi-
tion their best support.—( Hear, hear.) He trusted that the
proceedings of this Committee, whatever they might be, would
be rapid. What they must do they must do quickly He be-•
lieved that a great deal of time was last year roast, din perusing
what were called traffic tables. This involved a great waste of
time. He did not think that they sat there for railways only,
although it would almost appear that they did so last year. He
hoped that some rational course would be laid down for their
guidance with respect to railway legislation, and he trusted that
it would be done quickly.
Mr. P. SCROPE hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would
submit to the Committee, for their consideration, the subject
of the appointment of a Commission, to supersede Committees
on Railway &Ile. He had himself been oec of a Committee
which had sat for eighty-four days last session ; and his so
serving had taught him how 'incompetent a Parliamentary
railway Committee was. A Commission could have got
through the business of that Committee in a few hours. He
trusted, therefore, that the Right Hon. Gentleman would con
sider the propriety of appointing five gentlemen well qualified-
to serve as a Commission upon railway Bills ; fin he was
convinced that such a step would be attended with most advan-
tageous results.
Mr. MORRISON thought the best mode of putting a
wholesome check upon railway speculation was to reduce the
profits upon railways; and to do that effectually he would
suggest, that the companies should be compelled to charge
low rates of fare. If a person wanted to go to Dover. he had to
pay 155., but from Ostend to Brussels—the same distance—
the charge was only 7s. 6d. With respect to the question of
the deposits, he believed that so far from the deposits having
checked speculation, that they had had quite a contrary effect.
He thought the present system of deposits was full of evil, and
required extensive alteration. And he trusted that the subject
would receive that consideration which its importance required.
Sir R. PEEL, who was scarcely audible, said that nothing
had passed in that debate, which had at all shaken his con-
viction that her Majesty's Government had pursued the pro-
per course, in availing themselves of the earliest opportunity of
calling the attention of the House to the difficulty in which
they might be involved, unless they took early notice of the
immense extent of railway legislation which was this year to
be presented to them. It was the duty of the Government to
submit the-matter to the consideration of the House of Com-
mons, inasmuch as it was a subject affecting their own privi-
leges. He was perfectly certain that if he had brought for-
ward any scheme on the part of the Government, and sub-
mitted it to the consideration of the whole House, he would
have been called upon at once to refer it to a Select Committee.
That was the course they intended to adopt. The Committee
would be composed of Members who had more particularly
turned their attention to the subject of railways. It had been
said that there would probably not be more than one or two
hundred plans deposited, but there had, in point of fact, been
710, involving a capital of 300 000,0001. It was true that a
very great number of these Bills would fail, either through a
non-compliance with the standing orders, or front the failure
in making the necessary deposits ; but they ought to con-
sider, as early as possible, the difficulty in which the
House might be placed with respect to these Bills.--
( Hear, hear.) He had been asked to postpone the
appointment of the Committee until it was ascertained whether
or not the railways for which plans had been deposited grad
passed through the standing orders. He could not consent to
that, although it might be very possible for the Committee to
postpone their decision, as to the course to be adopted with
respect to those bills until they had gone through that ordeal.
It was absolutely necessary that they should take this subject
into consideration early. Let them consider what were the
effects of delay in the last session of Parliament. They were
not able to perform their functions last year. Many bills were
postponed, although their promoters had complied with t'ne re-
gulations of the year 1844. They had served their notices and
had paid their deposits, yet such was the pressure upon the
House of Commons, that bills to the amount of eleven millions
were allowed to stand over, not because they were objected to
in principle, but because there was not time to consider there.
Suppose there should he one hundred or two hundred bills to
be refers d to committees of the House of Commons,
was it not incumbent upon them to take a preliminary
view of a question of such immense importance?
Each scheme would be considered by five men. But tb ey
would merely consider the particular scheme before them, wb e-
ther or no it promised to fulfil the expectation held out by- its
promoters, or was likely to realise a remunerative profit, and
whether the estimated expenses would be sufficient to carry it
into effect; they were only required to take en abstract vie tw
of the merits of that particular scheme. The scheme had be en
thus distinctly considered, the estimates had bt en found all
right ; the expectations of the promoters were likely to be
realised, the great body of the landlords on the line were co n-
senting parties ; and the Committee therefore unhesitating gly
might not applyex
teevnitth
tthay
recommended the scheme, and it would then be brought under
the notice of Parliament. But when the House conside red
the number of Bills which had been, and were likely to be
sanctioned, when they considered an expenditure of sos nee
23,00l),0001. for the next three years, surely it was fairly oe en
vantage scene sort of limit to capital, which in addition to t hat
for consideration,
therefore Majesty command to sinew
at pre inH euhsaed, must still
herbe requireds for
the
House matter,and
equally mx.
whether or no they
1, and, as owing to the competition
traordinary amount of capita
seeing the extraordinary number
ftheHoeufseßatishlltel,
wuanbhell
no saying to what.
Interest mil ;lit
of rival projects, there wsa
enhimtehoilretehrye otherstt
taking thanth these press
Ministers felt that it was.
might extend, her Majesty
' attention to the standinga duty
in
s-
perative upon them to draw orders in
hopeda
that the rest IR,
order to have the opinion e ayld
measure,m
would be tl tat
sit
Bills .c-
-cording to their importance and the interest public. attest', ied
to them, or in any other way in w
ng for
dihgehrte
not to them,icn
substituted
tuted whether
instead,
House of Commons would not consent to part with its eel
the earnest consideration of the House He hoped that the
be better advanced. This was a subject_e peculiarlyp earn
even if they were eu
their integrity and independenceh,svethreeitinensue.revel inviolate. He
thought the contrast exhibited Commons last
session,e
session, as compared with the previousthatwas greatly to
jurisdiction ;but he,
nittienthtien:atmnehtiisme,
its honour. It showed to the country they were det er-
mined duties which devolved upon them in • the
mined to discharge the
and although their de • •
consideration of private Bills,
he decisions w ere
found fault with at first, yet, on the whole,their believed
the •p• blic
were satisfied with the integrity of
otdelbions.—
( ear. )
He did not deny that there might be
the.tribunals as co tripe-
tent to judge of these interests as any House of Corn mons
might institute. But what could one commission, corn! nosed
Ii
of the most eminent scientific men, do.
they desired t hem
to inquire into the progress of these schemes, to report w. hi ch
of theta were the most worthy of attention, it would be eh,
lutely necessary to have as many,any commissions on this as the re
They •
were Committees in the past session. might have two: sty
or more, but there could not be that security or that public et in-
fidence in these mnltiplied commissionaerstossthere would let ,in
one. Yet at the sams time, when he sid h ,he did not ss sees
to place himself in opposition to those stemtrse who desires 1 to
lighten the labours of the Commit edee.ta reserved the
i s
right of judging of results after the had been rept need
by those competent to do so. He would now sit down, t rust-
the
iug that the House would sanction appointment q f the
Committee he had asked for ?
Mr. COLLETT wished to know, before the questi en
was
put, whether the Committee would be a secret or a sole( ;bone?

Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE, in rising to move a vote
of 50,000/. for the extension of public works in Ireland, said
that he thought it his duty, at this early period of the session, to
bring before the House a measure of this kind. The object of
the vote was to improve the condition of the people of Ireland,
both in their social and their moral condition—both by mea-
sures of education and employment. At present, hOwever,
they had more in view—the finding of employment for the
people, without reference to the works to be raised. He had,
therefore, brought forward no new measure whatever. He
had referred to the statute which already existed,
and he found that the law, as there set down,
might be beneficially extended for the purposes he had
stated. At present, therefore, he proposed that a further sum
might be placed at the disposal of the Treasury, to be used for
the purpose of increasing employment in Ireland. He found
that a Bill for the draining of rivers and lands in different parts
had, with the consent of that House, passed the Legislature in
the session of 1842. Great advantages were expected to be
derived from it. He found, however, that from various causes
a large number of the projects under the consideration of the
Board of Works were delayed and impeded. Many difficulties
had arisen to account for this, but the principal difficulty was
the obtaining money to carry these projects into effect. He
hoped, however, that the number of railways, as well as the
works which they might be the means of originating, would
infuse fresh vigour into that country, and that employment
would be given to its inhabitants by these undertakings. Such
a result would reward him for all the trouble he had had
upon the subject. He would not enter into any
lengthened details on the Bill under consideration.
The questions involved were of a peculiarly technical nature,
and he was sure that he would receive the thanks of even the
Hon. Gentleman opposite—( Mr. Hume, we understood )—for not
entering fully into them. But he was bound no doubt to revert
to them in some little degree. One reason why money could
not be easily obtained was that the security was not deemed
sufficient. Ho was not prepared to render that security ample ;
all he intended was to propose that the money should be ad-
vanced by the land, at the same time taking care that they would
not interfere with the rights of the possessor. True, this was
advanced by a charge upon the land, but it must be remembered
that no mere charge would be necessary than what would after-
wards be raised by increasing the value of it. If the Commis-
sioners of the Board of Works were satisfied, that by a certain
amount of improvement a corresponding value would follow,
they had powers given to them by the Act of 18.12, to
order the necessary funds for effecting these improve-
ments. Another difficulty had been felt in the
raising of money for payment of deposits. These
deposits were necessary for preliminary expenses. It
was now proposed that the grand jury should have power in
any one or more counties to present a sum of money for these
deposits, the repayment of which sums would be fully guaran-
teed to them. When the House would consider that this sum
was only in the nature of a loan, he thought that there could
be no objection to it. In works of this great magnitude it
had been found that the amount of the deposits were sometimes
insufficient to cover them, and as parties were unwilling to
come forward with a second subscription, the works had
been, for want of a small sum to complete them, obliged
to stand still. He proposed, therefore, that the
Board of Works should advance these sums to be
theirs when the works were completed. Another important
alteration he intended to introduce respecting the drainage.
By the former law the consent of two-thirds of the proprietors
were necessary before these works could be proceeded with.
Now, it frequently happened that a number of these proprietors
would not give themselves the trouble to consider any proposal
of the kind ; they were perfectly willing that others should take
the trouble to carry them forward, but they were not
willing to give their assent to it. He, therefore, pro-
posed to enact that if the assent of one half of the
proprietors could be obtained, _ the works should go
forward. There was another subject to which he would
briefly refer. He meant the drainage of rivers for the pur-
poses of navigation. He meant to give powers to companies to
carry this object into effect, they being entitled to a profit not
exceeding 10/, per cent. upon their capital. He meant to give
a similar power to companies supplying towns with water by
means of reservoirs. The Act also took cognisance of waste
land and bog drainage. But as this was a new field, and as
the result must prove unfavourable as to value, power was
given to the Commissioners to lease or sell parts of such re-
claimed land in order to defray thq, expenses of drainage. In
conclusion, he might state that it was the intention of Govern-
ment that the provisions of this Act should be carried into im-
mediate operation.
Mr. F. FRENCH objected to the Right Hon. Baronet
stating that his present Bill was necessary to do away with the
defects of the Bill of 1842, because it was well known that that
measure would have proved effective had the Commissioners
of the Board of Works not been too costly and extravagant in
their estimates and surveys. For instance, he knew cf a gen-
tleman in the county of Meath who wished to make some
drainage improvements upon his lands; and, accordingly, he
made the usual application to the Board of Works to assist him
in doing so, and they sent down their officers to make their
estimates and surveys. The report of these officers stated that
the estimated expense of effecting the improvements would be
6,0001. ; and owing to this sum being considered more than
land and improvements were worth, the improvements were for
a time abandoned. Subsequently, however, three private in-
dividuals undertook the reclamation of the land in ques-
tion, and they accomplished their object at a cost
of half the sum estimated by the Board of Works,
namely, 3,0001.—( Hear, hear, hear.) With respect to
the subject of bog lands, he thought the Right Hon. Baronet
was legislating properly upon this branch of the matter.
There were three millions of acres of bog land in Ireland,
and efforts were made in 1809 to reclaim them. The plans
and specifications for carrying out this design were still in ex-
istence,and he thought now that the Right Hon. Baronet had
taken the subject in hand, he would do well to direct the at-
tention of the Commissioners of the Board of Works to them,
in order that they might be made available for effecting one of
the objects of this Bill. At all events he was sure great be-
nefit would result to Ireland, by facilities being afforded to
landed proprietors to reclaim their bog land. Already 50,000
English acres had been reclaimed at a very moderate cost, and
he hoped to see more of it restored to a state of cultivation,
Sir R. FERGUSON agreed with the opinions of his Hon.
Friend who had last addressed the House, and thought the
Right Honourable Baronet had made a mistake in leaving the
entire distribution of the 50,0001. to the Commissioners of the
Board of Works. It was true, as his Hon. Friend had stated,
that the surveys of the Board of Works had been too expen-
sive, and this had induced many landholders to think that it
was not worth their while to make an effort to reclaim or im-
prove their lands. —( Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Sir T. FREMANTLE, leave was
given to bring in the Bill.
SESSIONAL ORDERS.
Mr. CARDWELL then moved the new sessional order making
provision for the sittings of the House onWednesdays. He did
not, he said, intend to persevere with the sixth resolution,
which was as follows :—" That if the House be not formed at a
quarter past twelve o'clock, Mr. Speaker do then take the
chair and count the House, and if forty Members be not then
present, or if, at any time during the sitting it should appear
that forty be not present, Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House to
the next day, unless the Houle shall have previously resolved to
adjourn, at its rising, to some other day."
Mr. COLLETT wished to know if the Committees, of which
there were likely to be a large number this session, were to sit
on a Wednesday, wlstether the House sat or not on that day ?
The parties who were interested in these Committees would
have a good deal to pay in the shape of expenses for witnesses,
&c., and it would be attended with great inconvenience, and of
course extra expenses to them, if the Committee did not sit on
a Wednesday. And yet, on the other hand, if the House
and the Committees sat at one and the same
time on Wednesdays, it would be personally incon-
vettieut to Honourable Members themselves, because they
would be at a loss which to attend, the Committee or the
House, but for his part he thought it would be pursuing an
unconstitutional course if both the House and the Committees
sat at the same time. Besides the present sessional order was
in direct opposition to a resolution which was passed on Friday,
which provided that when the Speaker went to prayers at the
opening the House, the fact should be announced to all the
Committees then sitting at the time, and all the proceedings
of the Committee after such notice were to become null and
void. He repeated then that it was unconstitutional to re-
quire the attendance of Honourable Members in two places at
once—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) And at the risk of receiv-
ing a visit from the Sergeant-at-Arms, he for one should not
attend any Committee upon which he might happen to be ap-
pointed, when the House sat on a Wednesday, considering
that the lesser duty of attending on a Committee, merged into
the superior duty of attending the House—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. EDWARD CARDWELL said the order was
only an experiment, and if the Honourable Member
would only allow him to try it, he could assure the Honourable
Member that it should be abandoned if it was found to be at-
tended with inconvenience.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to
the latter objection of the lion. Member, as to the sitting of a
Committee while the House was performing its superiorfunc-
tions, that could easily be got over by leave being given by
the Speaker to each Committee to continue its labours while
the House was sitting.
Mr. COLLETT suggested that it often happened that a
House could not be made on a Wednesday, no matter whether
the House met in the fore or afternoon, and then the House
was invariably adjourned within a quarter of an hour after the
Speaker had taken the chair. New, when leave was given to
a Committee to continue its proceedings during the sittings of
of the House, the leave only extended over such time as the
House remained sitting, and thus a Committee, as well as the
House. might meet and adjourn on a Wednesday within the
space of a quarter of an hour.
Mr. HUME thought the objection of the Honourable
Member was a fair one, and he hoped the Government would
say positively whether the Committees were to sit on a Wed-
nesday or not, and at once get rid of the difficulty.
The CH AN CELLO R of the EXCHEQUER was understood
to reply, that Government wished that the Committees should
continue their labours as usual ou a Wednesday.
Mr. HUME hoped then, that if any important measure
should be likely to come on on a Wednesday, in which Members
of any of the Committees were interested, the discussion of
those measures should be so arranged as to enable those Hon.
Members to be present.—( Hear, hear.)
The resolutions, as follows, were then agreed to :-
1. Resolved, That the House do meet every Wednesday,
at twelve at noon, for Private Business, Petitions, and Orderste
of the Day, and do continue to sit until six o'clock, unless h
business be sooner disposed of.
2. Resolved, That when such business has been disposed
of, or at six o'clock precisely, no! withstanding there
the m
business under discussion, Mr. Speaker do eachair,y be
without putting any question.
3. Resolved, That whenever the House
ismhaeldliabtedyn,
tCoor-t
mittee at six o'clock, the Chairman dem
n,
and that, when such
progress, and ask leave to si
, Mr. Speaker do leave the chair, with-
leave has been giv
en
out putting any question.
4. Resolved. That the business under discussion, at the
time of such adjournmenc the House shall sit.
N'.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER moved for a return of the
the ex-
; Amphion's bow down to put on Mr. White's,
bpeolw'se,
aonfdtat.lh-enn-e
taking down a part of Mr. White's bow to put
on another to enable her to point her main deck guns right

ahead.

PUBLIC PETITIONS.

On the motion of Mr. T HORNLEY, the following Hon.
Members were appointed a Select Committee on Public Pe-
titions :_Mr. Thornely, Sir R. H. Inglis, the Earl of Annan-
dale and Surrey, Viscount Courtenay, Viscount Duncan.
Captain Jones, Mr. Cowper, Mr. Pusey, Mr. Edward Buller,
Mr. Buckley, William Hamilton, Mr. Owen Stanley, Mr.
Brotherton, Mr.„Villiers Stuart, and LOrd Alfred Hervey.

(From the Votes and Pi oceedings of the House of Commons.)
MONDAY, JAN. 26.
The following Petitions for Railway Bills were presented,
and ordered to lie on the table :
Ashburton, Newton, and South Devon Railway.
Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway.
London and Brighton Railway (Dorking Branch).
London and Brighton Railway ( East Grinstead Branch).
North Kent Railway (City Extension).
Blackburn, Chorley, and Liverpool Railway.
Waverey Valley and Great Yarmouth Railway.
Taw Vale Railway Extension.
Blackburn and Preston Railway.
Liverpool, Ormskirk, and Preston Railway.
Edinburgh and Leith Atmospheric Railway.
North British Railway.
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Newport Railway and
St. Andrew's Branch).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Kinross, Woodmill,
and Newburgh Branches).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Lochgelly and Leslie
Extensions).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Dunfermline Branch).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Strathearn Deviation).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Branches from the
Dundee and Arbroath Railway and Tay Ferry Improvement).
Edinburgh and Northern Rdlway (Pettycur and Perth
Harbour Branches and Deviations).

NOTICES GIVEN AT THE PRIVATE BILL-OFFICE.

MONDAY, JAN. 26.
North British Railway (No. I)—Committee on Petition,
Friday, Feb. 6.
Glasgow, Dumfries' and Carlisle Railway—Committee on
Petition, Friday, Feb. 6.
Ashburton, Newton, and South Devon Railway—Commit-
tee on Peition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Edinburgh Sand Leith Atmospheric Railway—Committee
on Petition, Friday, Feb. 6.
Avrshire, Bridge of Weir and Port Glasgow Junction
Railway—Committee on Petition, Wednesday, Feb. 4.
Stirling and Dunfermline Railway—Committee on Petition,
Wednesday, Feb. 4.
Ayrshire and Galloway Railway—Committee on Petitien,
Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Newry, Warrenpoint, and Rosstrevor Railway—Committee
' on Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Belfast :and County Down Railway—Committee on Peti-
tion, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Bailvmena and Ballymoney Railway—Committee on Peti-

_
tion, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Irish Great Western Railway—Committee cn Petition,
Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Waveney Valley and Great Yarmouth Railway—Commit-
tee on Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Taw Vale Railway Extension—Committee on Petition,
Tuesday, Feb. 3.
London and Brighton Railway ( East Grinstead Branch)—
Committee on Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
North Kent City Extension Railway—Committee on Peti-
tion, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
London and Brighton Railway (Dorking
.Branch)—Com-
mittee on Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Liverpool, Ormskirk, and Preston Railway—Committee on
Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Blackburn, Chorley, and Liverpool Railway—Committee
on Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Blackburn and Preston Railway—Committee on Petition,
Tuesday, Feb. 3.

The following Members were appointed a Select Committee
" to consider the mode in which the House shall deal with
the Railway Bills proposed to be submitted to the House
during the present session" :—Lord Granville Somerset, 'Sir
George Grey, Mr. Strutt, Mr. Labouchere, Mr. Estcourt, Mr.
Greene, Mr. Fwart, Mr. Colquhoun, Mr. Hodgson Hinde, Mr.
Pakington, Sir George Clerk, Mr. Baring, The O'Conor )on,
Lord Harry Vane, and Mr. Shaw :—Power to send for per-
sons, papers, and records ; Fire to be the quorum.