The Sun.
London, England, 1848-03-21 00:00:00

One of their countrymen (Mr. Sturge) went on a depu-
tation to France the other day. What business he had
there he should not say; but the Minister of Finenee
mud that no addition should be made to the French navy,
and that he was delighted to find England was disposed
to remain in peace. His Hon. Friend asked, where was
the security for peace? but his answer was—where was
the danger of war? His Hon. Friend said they were t ich,
and should keep up large establishments; but, was not the
expenditure incurred in those establishments an excel-
lest method to make the country poor? Over and over
again he ( Mr. Hume) was requested not to oppose the
naval estimates, because it was a popular branch of the
service, Well, he consented, but he should take care
never to do so again. It was then said, why did you
turn round now, after having passed over these votes
for years? but his answer was, that they had a full
Pocket, and were able to pay their debts; Nut now the
ease was otherwise, and they should not, therefore, be
permitted to increase their expenditure. Give us the
estimates for this year, said his Hon. Friend. No mat,
was more anxious to sustain the public credit than hi
was, but it was because he deemed them extravagant he
should oppose them. Their deficiency this year was
4,800,0001, or nearly 5,000,000/., anal would the Ileus
permit her Majesty's Government to go into debt without
any means of paying it? Indirect taxation cannot be had
recourse to, and how then was that deficiency to be paid
off, unless by rcducin their establishments? The lion.
Member then referred to the great and useless expen-
diture incurred in keeping fleets in the Mediterranean.
on the west coast of Africa, in America, in the Pacific,
and other parts of the world. He contended that there
was no reason for the increase of the navy during the
last ten years. In 1842 or 1843, Sir Robert Peel a•ked
for 36,500 sailors, and said that he required this number
until the ships returned from the China war; thereby
intimating that when the China war terminated, the
number of men would be reduced. Yet it appeared that
the number of men had increased, year bylyear, up to
the present moment. Again, when Sir Robert Peel
asked for 1,000,000/. to build a steam navy, it was never
intended that they should go on building sailing vessels
of war.—(Hear, hear.) We had slow, however, in-
creased war steamers to the extent of ninety six, and
yet we were going on increasing the number of our
sailing ships. The Honourable Member then said he
had a statement in his hand which showed the state of
the navy from the year 1833 up to the present
period. In the year 1835 the number of ships was 167.
with 20,000 men. The number of ships of war regu-
larly increased until last year. In 1847 the number of
ships was 266, and this year the number was to be re•
duced to 235. This being so, he wished to know why
they desired to increase the number of men? Ile con-
tended upon the whole they could safely reduce the navy
by lb,ooo men; but he would only ask to reduce the
number to 36,000. The lion. Gentleman then alluded
to the disuse of flogging in the navy, a circumstance
which was highly creditable to the officers of the navy,
and was an important recognition of the feelings of the
public en this subject. He would counsel the Commit-
tee not to assent to estimates which they could not meet,
and here he would undertake to show that the revenue
for the last year was as good as it had been for several
years before, and if they had not increased the expen-
diture of the country—which they did unnecessarily—
they would have been enabled to meet the expenditure
of the country by the receipts which they derived from
the revenue. The Honourable Gentleman then said,
that the average of the revenue of the country, in 1841
and 1842, was 51,800,000/., which was 651,000/. over
he expenditure of the country, and that was a surplus
exceeding the average surplus for the preceding ten or
twelve years. Then, if he took the average income of
the country in 1846, he found that it amounted to fifty
seven millions and a half, and if they deducted the
income-tax fry m this amount, they would still have a
revenue of 52,000,0001., giving a surplus of 241,0001.
superior to the expenditure of the country previous to
the imposition of the income-tax; so that if they had
not increased the charges on the country, they would
have been enabled to have met the expenditure by the
amount of the revenue received. The Hon. Gentleman
concluded by moving that the number of men be reduced
from 43,000 to 36,000.
Mr. CORRY defended the increase which had been
made in the navy of late years, and justified the conse-
quent increase in the number of men, and the amou.n'
of the stores. He contended there was no foundation
whatever for the charge made by the Honourable Mem
ber for Montrose, that the Government had gone on
extravagantly increasing the navy ; and in support
of his position he showed that in the year 1793
the number of ships of the line was 129, and the frigates
amounted to 1.55, while at the present period they re
spectively reached but 71 and 90. Having gone at some
length into the affairs of the navy, he urged upon the
House that the present number of men was not greater
than the requirements of the country demanded. Ile
hoped the Committee would give their support to the
vote, and that the Hon. Member for Montrose would be
left in the glorious minority he deserved.
Mr. B. COCHRANE based his opposition to the
amendment proposed by Mr. Hume on the present aspect
of affairs, whieh he contended were far more threatening
and warlike than the Hon. Gentleman appeared to itna
gine. War, he bslieved, was almost inevitable in
Europe. It might be unwise to say that war was immi-
nent, but it would be equally untrue to affirm that the
state of France was not most menacing towards Europe;
and if it one reached this continent, England could not
well escape, particularly if such scenes were revs rtes to
as the disgraceful exhibition they had a few days since
in the presentation —the disgraceful presentation, he
would say—of an address to the Provisional Government
of France, by the English residents in Pars. If they
did not wish to he embroiled in an European war, their
countrymen ought not to interfere in the internal affairs
of other countries, while the Government remained pas-
sive. The truest way to prevent war was, in his opinion,
to be prepared to meet it.—(Bear, hear.) lie should,
therefore, support the vote proposed by the Hon. Gentle-
man the Secretary for the Admiralty.
Mr. AGLIONBY referred to the manner in which he
conceived Captain Warner had been treated with re-
spect to his invention, and called upon some of the
members of the Army, Navy, and Ordnance Committee
to explain why it was that a communication which the
Gallant Gentleman had addressed to them, requesting,
as the basis for considerable saving, an investigation into
the merits of his extraordinary machine, had not been
attended to. Captain Warner, in his opinion, had been
very unfairly treated. His proposed instrument of dee
struction was stated as likely to effect considerable
retrenchment in the naval expenditure, and he did not
think it becoming that the plan should have been
laughed at, or hooted down, without any due or suffi-
cient inquiry having been made into its capabilities. lie
now asked the Committee appointed to consider whether
any and what saving could be effected in the army, navy,
and ordnance expenditure, whether an intention existed
on their part of calling Captain Warner before them for
the purpose of testing his statements.
Mr. C. BRUCE ridiculed Captain Warner's invention
as one of the chimeric fancies of the age, and he then
proceeded to a consideration of the policy of the Go-
vernment with respect to the expenditure. The navy
estimates be defended, and expressed his intention of
supporting the vote.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM did not consider it expedient
to follow the lion. Gentleman in expatiating on the
disputed ground of the Ministerial policy respecting the
maintenance of protection, the suppression of the slave
trade, and the sugar duties ; but, in reply to the inter-
rogatory of the Honourable Member for Cockerrnouth,
put to the Army, Ordnance, and Navy Committee, with
the view of ascertaining their intention as to an exanai•
nation of Captain Warner and his invention, he denied
that any discourtesy had been either intended or offered
to that gentl. man by the Noble Lord the Chairman of
the Committee. The Committee was appointed to con-
sider whether any saving could be Effected in the army,
navy, and ordnance expenditure; and he thought he
might tell his Honourable Friend, that the Com-
mittee, constituted as it was of nearly all non-pro-
fessional men, did not deem it their duty to investi-
gate the subject of Captain Warner's claim. The
Noble Lot d, he fancied, had already, on more occasions
than one, answered this question. He (Sir James
Graham) regretted that this discussion on the im-
portant subject of voting , supplies fur the mainte-
nance of an efficiette navy should appear to degene-
rate into matter of detail. He thought the decision to
which the House might come was fraught with great and
mighty consequences, and he hoped that the introduction
of matters of min: r importance into the discussion
would not draw the attention of Hon. Gentleman from
the real question b fore the House.—(Hear.) When he
came down to the House he confessed he did not do so
prepared to be put upon his defence, as he little expected
that his Hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty
would have characterised the administration of the
Admiralty during the years from 1831 to 1834, at which
time he (Sir James Graham) was at the head of it, as
he had done. His Honourable Friend had said that,
when .he left the Admiralty Board at that time, the
naval arsenals and dockyards were, in a great measure,
left unprovided for, and he confessed that for some time
he thought that the lion. Gentleman had allowed the
expression to drop from him in an unguarded manner ;
but as he had repeated it several times over, no doubt
was left ultimately as to his sincerity in making the
asertior. Now, at that time, it he recollected
rightly, his Hon. Friend was a Member in
the House, and being so, he could not fail
to recollect that, when at that time these accusations
were made against him (Sir James Graham), as head of
the'Admiralty Board under Earl Grey's Government,
he made a statement in answer to the accusations pre-
ferred, which, so far as the opinion of the House could
be ascertained, disposed of the subject most satisfacto-
rily.—(Hear, hear.) The present colleagues of his Hon.
Friend wore perfectly satisfied with his explanation.
The Noble Lord at the head of the present Government
was so, and he could not help feeling astonished that
his Hon. Friend should lue e, at the present time, at all
adverted to the subject. At that time he showed most
satisfactorily that, with respect to all articles which
were of an imperishable nature, and which did not
become useless by time, lie had added considerably to
the number, and thereby increased the strength and
efficiency of that branch of the service, while he
admitted that a reduction had been made in all
articles required for the service of a perishable
nature, on the ground that unless the exigencies of
the service at the time actually required these, there
was no use of storing them up, as from being so for
any length of time, they became unfit for use, so that
the money expended on them was as much money
thrown away.—(Hear, hear.) At that time then, as ho
had stated, he satisfied the House on that point. Since
then ho had not looked much into naval matters, and he
did not wish to pursue that subject, referred to by his
Hon. Friend, any further, &though he could satisfy the
House now as he did then, that the charge, in 1834, of
leaving their dockyards and arsenals deficient of stores,
was not true.—(Hear, hear.) In regard to the estimates
before the House, he could not help thinking that, al-
though his Hon. Friend; had submitted it as a peace
estimate, his mode of enforcing it was somewhat pug-