The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-25 00:00:00

fashion of the Kilkenny cats.—(Laughter.) He, how-
!ler, was rejoiced to see that so many Hon. Members
Pad not only outlived the intigues of the session, but
that in endeavouring to prove their mental and bodily
rigour, they had given a sort of rally to the session
which would otherwise decline.—(Laughter.) Ile hoped
he plight see them equally vigorous and ardent in the
discharge of their legislative functions after the fatigues
' the recess at the beginning of next session.—(Hear,
hear.) Ministers had been taunted with postponing
• her measures, and now bringing this on. But they
had invariably replied to questions on the subject that
.t Was their intention to go on with it. They were dun
"Id that by persisting in that intention they were con-
Ilieting some deep scheme, seine mysterious mischief,
roe hidden purpose. Such things existed only in the
'Pag i ination of Hon. Gentlemen—certainly not in the n-
; tintiou of the Government. They were told that they
Were more solicitous about railroads in Italy than the
Interests of Ireland. Now, what he said upon that sub.
.
Iteet 'Pss simply that, considering the growing impor-
i ltnce of the commerce of Italy, it was desirable we
should enter into permanent relations with that country,
19 with every other throughout the world. The Hon.
pereber for Youghal said we could do with the present
aw, and the Hon. Member for Stafford quoted several
case
stn which diplomatic intercourse had been carried
'AI between the two countries. That was precisely the
itase of the Government, who contended that the very
t
yie.,„cessitY of things compelled us to establish an inter •
eCSrse with the Court of Ri me, by avowed and acknow-
thged channels, instead of having a great country like
Is driven into holes and corners, and obliged to do
stealthily what it would be more becoming to do openly.
hear.) With regard to the assertion that this
ea, ill "old tend, he knew not how, to put the Pope
such restraint as was imposed by Napoleon, so
iat whatever he did would be under duress, he could
lcY say that both the late Pope and the present bad
bliPressed a desire to have diplomatic relations %sta.•
tc_hed between this country and Rome. Those I ro-
Aatants, therefore, who raised that objection showed
(I::°„se2vas more Papist than the Pope himself,—
opon-„g,"ter.) Indeed, ;the late Pope never allowed the
are "Piling of receiving any distinguished Englishman
Fan without expressing his regret at the want of di-
"latic relations between the two countries. They
Pire net likely, therefore, to do any violence to the
Anse by this measure, which he hoped the Home would
ei,o3' as simply enabling us to hold that political inter-
,
tre-tae with Rome which we hold with every other coon•
ki'di whether Christian or Mahomedan.—(Hear, hear,
itcpres " Divide.")
thaGORING moved the adjournment of the debate.
t ANSTEY explained that his distinction was this
' "der the present law we could have diplomatic re-
vs..P, with the Pope or Remo as a temporal but not as.
tilfritual sovereign, and therefore thin Bill in his opi,
so: Was brought in to enable Ministers to establish in
time -hope or other spiritual relations between them-
esl and the see of Rome.
1111a4,•• BRIGHT said the Bill had not one feature in it
ce,a— anY rational man could object to unless that which
,c—Pelled the Pope not to send an ecclesiastic to this
ui,ntrY, which was just the very thing he would not
calata.dune if left to himself. Honourable Gentlemen
ta;" ~' either to let this Bill pass, or take upon themselves
Captain
of the Government of the country.
HARRIS declined to put himself under the
(sae ralthiP of the Honottrable Member for You hall—
(A
thought that if they put off this measure
e
• session, they would only then get a worse one.
"e Rouse then divided on the question of adjouriug
debate, when there appeared—
Ayes
NOss
Majority.
Ilia 1/ ORBES made an ineffectual attempt to address
°use amidst cries of " Spoke."
he subsequently
VYSE moved that the House do adjourn (as
subsequently discovered he had done, that Mr. Forbes
"'light be heard).
lael'Ord J. RUSSELL observed that the Hon. and
teroed Member (Mr. Napier), who said he would op-
se but not obstruct the Bill, had, with a due regard to
81s0wn character, left the House.
tattlir• PORBES then reiterated the objections he bad
me to the Bill at the early sitting, and
air. SPOONER rose to address the House, when
tr'r G. GREY interposed, and expressed a hope that
hr. Members would pay a substantial regard to the
tqa of the House by not speaking twice in the same
to. Pee The Hon. Member (Mr. Forbes) had again
la e the•spteech which he had • delivered in the morn-
reZ arid he supposed the Hon. Member for Birmingham
0 to d
ebstn_, so too.—(A laugh.) He wished to offer no
cle to full and free discussion, but he thought it
souse
too great an infringement on the rules of the
"'use for Hon. Members to deliver precisely the same
toh at 12 o'clock at night that they had made at 12
celt the same day.—(Hear, hear.)
to a:Pt. VYSE begged to say that he in no way desired
ettZend against the rules of the House, or offer any
„--"a opposition to the Bill. He had moved the ad-
-rtiment of the House to give his Hon. Friend (Mr.
wrbes) an opportunity of speaking, conceiving that be
s about to throw a new light on the subject.
SPOONER persisted in addressing the House,
tioaion denied that he was acting in a factious spirit. by
exercising a constatu-
tfe g so; and that he was only
1181 privilege and discharging his duty. from which he
-Would not shrink.
After a short conversation,
Captain VYSE withdrew his motion for the adjourn-
ment of the House, and a division took place upon the
main question ;when the numbers were—
For going into Committee
Against it
Majority --77
The House then w,•nt into Committee on the Bill.
Mr. ANSTEY moved a verbal amendment on the
eecoiid clause, to omit the words " Notwithstanding a -
thing contained in the Acts now in force it would
bney"
and to insert the words "it is;" the effect of c''h• h
would he to render the law declaratory th,t it
was' ;lie
law of the land to hold relations with the Pope, as Lord
Campbell had expressed his • opinion in a speech made on
the 11111 of May, 1846.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that Lords Cottenham and
Campbell no doubt thought it to he lawful, but considered
It advisable to remove all doubts, Lord Campbell had
pronounced a very different opinion to that quoted by the
lion. Member the other night.
The. gallery was then cleared, but the amendment was
ualkatived without a division. On its re-opening,
might
HARRIS reminded the house that the Pope
rigt.it cease to be a temporal prince without ceasing to
i 7 the spiritual head of the catholic church of Rome.
.tie moved the exclusion of the words "court of Rome."
Lordr PALMERSTON did not understand that the
Words " court of Rome " were intended to apply to the
Spiritual jurisdiction of the Pope.
ot Air. HENLEY suggested that the words " Sovereign
si the Roman states "
al
court be inserted instead of the words
of Rome."
Leroarttl io PnA LaNnIdERSTON said he had no objection to the
IrHARRIS withdrew his amendment.
this
C. PEARSON said he understood the object of
Was to remove doubts, and that it might do this
more effectually he would move the insertion, at the end
1)„ the first clause, of the words " touching and concern-
tag international, civil, commercial, and political rela-
:us between her Majesty, her heirs, and suc•
iissors, and the sovereign for the time being of the
thPlnan states." This would prevent the application of
e diplomatic intercourse to any religious matters. He
had heard with some surprise that at this moment ar-
Itugetne.nts were going on with the Sovereign of the
Catholic
states for partitioning this country into Roman
Ittle
atlsolic bishoprics. This would probably be the pre-
I, to a proposal for the endowment of the Roman
sioataolic clergy. If ever such a measure were sane-
Ped, it ought to be originated in this House, and not
byt, diplomatic arrangements. Believing, as he did, that
t.ue interference of the State with the Church was un-
hat rifol and dangerous to all parties, he was convinced
the existing union of the State with the Protestant
?;hurch would not now be sanctioned it' we were found-
:lg a constitution; it was merely tolerated as a thing
' long existence, which it would be difficult to put an
the to. The payment of the Roman Catholic clergy by
Lae state would be an additional link in the chain con-
heeling the civil and ecclesiastical power; and he was
• therefore anxious to guard against any pretext for such
an arrangement being furnished by this Bill. The
Noble Lord opposite (Palmerston) having distinctly
stated that political objects only were contemplated by
thin Bill, he could not reasonably refine the adoption of
Luta amendment. He (Mr. Pearson) was anxious to
guard against the payment of the Roman Catholic
Clergy being made the condition of certain countervailing
'advantages to be given to Government, in the represen-
tation for instance, of Lambeth.
T•
he SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the words pro-
dto be added would produce only an injurious
o et- The 'Words "diplomatic intercourse" were well
tilllitlletestood to mean such intercourse its was held with
al Court of Prussia, Austria, or any other Government.
Zrastions might arise not coming within any of the tour
lis_riptions embraced in the Hon. Member's amendment.
Ke, for instance, the measure referred to by the Hon.
ti!uaber—the division of this country into bishoprics.
rnight clearly do this at present •; but after the pass-
! ~cgr of this Bill, with the amendment proposed, the Go-
lic.P.lnent could offer no opposition to such a proposal.
iibic•Lbea could they interpose in favour of the religious
aaithrtY of residents in Rome professing the Protestant
definitic for such interference would not come within the
tiontrm of diplomatic intercourse proposed by the
a • Member for Lambeth.
sine e
• ANSTEY saw no ground for objecting to the
eud
eehioane tun.ess there was some unavowed object
I,aoa, vvhich this Bill was expected to serve. It the
etoonduc'aeiiirefaoirridya.wt
ithe head of the Government really meant
th the House and the country, and to
Ineoh„ "lung as to the real aims and objects of this
t) "re, thatu signify his assent to the amendment.
(
f
i
r
rder the subject might be fully considered he
-rAnste)) would move that the Chairman now report
ess and ask leave to sit ag—(No, no; divide.)
warned -M• J. O'CONNELL concurred with the Hon. and
iotc fled Member for Youghal, and thought the Bill was
giouPued to interfere with the spiritual rights and reli-
, c 8 privileges of the Roman Catholic population of this
onntey.
•
th_l\l".• BRIGHT opposed the amendment, and thought
bcattt_lf the Bill was altered as now proposed, it would be
Sir B,
reject it altogether.
diplomatic relations
INGLIS was of opinion that the words of
amendment, if to a measure for establishing•
aoe_ with any other sovereign than the
ea Pe, would involve a truism, and were therefore sur-
lusage.
,
Lord PALMERSTON thought the amendment would,
e
•
if varied be productive of great inconvenience from the
refinement of construction which would be put on its
terms. The Hon. Baronet (Sir R H. Inglis) had some
Years since applied to him (Lord
Palmerston) to make
a ropreaentatioll to the Government of Savoy in fa-
teorfferthoewiretil
to religion of the Vaudois, and afterwards
Switzerland to prevent ,interference
-44 A