The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-21 00:00:00

out the diocese was in favour of the Bill laid on their Leen
ships' table by the Noble Lord (Pawls). These sees ware vorl
tineiereehaving been constituted, perhaps, previous to the arch•.
bishopric of Dublin, arid the people were very desirous the:
both should be maietained. He agreed, with others Of his
Right Rev. Friends, that the bishopric of Manchester Isis,
both very necessary and very desirable, and he 604°1
it had been delayed to) long, having been intro-
duced to their Lordships' attention about ten YeY!
ago. He was hopeful, whatever might be their Lordships
decision, that means might yet be found to preserr
the ancient sees disunited, and also to found the bishopric m
Manchester. He opposed their union not from any interest he
himself had in it, but from a consideration of the interests°r
the clergy, and of the country.
Lord VIVIAN said he had no doubt that the whole of the
clergy were for the retaining of the two sees ; but if they wer,
;
aware of the proposition of the Noble Lord, he did not wonder
that they should. He found by a return that in the see of Bars
gori there were 34 of the parochial clergy who received under
1001. a-year, and 31 under 200/.; in St. Asaph, 31 under 11'1;
and 33 under 2.0/. ; in Bangor the churches were 38. ancl
St. Asaph 24, who received, he believed, less than 801. Yet,
he said, the proposition of the Noble Lord was to unite the two
sees, and out of the revenues to draw a surplus for the eats'
blishment o f the see of Manchester.
Lord STANLEY regretted that in the discussion Ibis
evening he saw nothing to induce him to alter the oPinj'a
which he had before expressed. The question before the Con
mission and their Lordships was how the financial incomesl
the Church of England and Wales could be so regulatee,te
as would produce at y improvement. It was fur tb
Lordships to coesider whether they would follow the recent;
mendatiuns of the Commissioners on that subject or not. 11
Right Rev. Friend deprecated the taking away of the revenues
from the poor people of Wales to establish a see in the rich dig‘
trict of Manchester. But the real object was altogether con'
fined to Wales—by tie union of Bangor and St. Asaph to lr
crease the revenues of St. Asaph and Landaff. In proof of this,
his Lordship referred to the Order in Council. There el
another question, which had nothing to do with finance; it b.ati
altogether to do with the augmentatiow of bishops. He deelee,
ever having expressed any wish for the reduction, or any el a
sition to the augmentation of the number of bishops. He hs
called their Lordships' attention to the difficulties with weicse
the question was surrounded. He had suggested that titer"
were two alternatives open to their Lordships, either to al;
ment the temporal power of the church, by augmenting the
number of bishops, and introducing them to that House, or pt
augmenting them, and excluding a certain number from tn.!,
House. There were difficulties, he said, on that occasion la
netted with both; and that he was certain their Lordships we° t
adopt either, only after great deliberation. But he would °°,
trouble their Lordships with what hail occurred on a forme;
occasion. The fact was, that if Bangor and St. Al
were united to-night, it would be found,
.01,
ing of the two sees by area, benefices, or P°Por
lation, that they would be less than some twenty r
twenty-two out of the rest of the twenty-six dioceses. Exeter,
for example, Norwich or Chester we uid be found &It
double, but some others would be ascertained to be sere:
eight, and even tenfold greater than the united sees of °"
Asaph and Bangor. He confessed he could not, however, con'
cur in the second reading of the Bill at a time when so little
had been ascertained as to the course on which that Bill WV,
leading them would end in.
The Bishop of SALISBURY could not allow this Bill t:
be put to the vote without making a few observations.
Noble Lord said that if the revenues of one of the sees we'
to the support of the poor benefices in the dioceses, the re.
sult would be exceedingly advantageous to the religious °:,
terests of the people. The Right Reverend Prelate in replY,b's
that went into a comparative statement of the condition Of %b
benefices in St. Asaph and Bangor, with other dioceses, w:
the view of showing that as far as the value of the
se
benefices, the population arid other eircurnstanort
there were no grounds whatever for a differ;
appropriation of the revenues of the Church.
considered that it would be much better if the consideration
the question were postponed to the next session, and be w
quite sure if the Noble Earl complied with his suggestioN it
.
would tend very much to promote the interests of the CherZle
The Bish ip of NORWICH could net agree with the 140 b
Earl in the Bill he brought forward. He considered, ,„,
ever, there ought to be an increase in the number of
bishops; and, for that purpose, wished Manchester to bele.,
in
prelate ; but, taking the circumstances of the dioceses r
tion into consideration, he must vote against the Noble a'4, 0
measure.
410 Earl GREY said that the happiest results had followed, se,
carrying out the recommendations of the Church Commissic;
and he sincerely believed that the improved tone of Pnbe4
opinion in regard to the Church was entirely to be attriba,l4,
to the reforms suggested by that Commission. If their Is°r.
ships admitted the applicability of the Noble Earl's Feesposil°,
with regard to Wales, they would have to extend
its applied
tion to other places, and by degrees and detail break down !lc,
destroy the recommendations of the Ecclesiastical Commislfifi
the measure passed a few years ago by Parliament, and nu" so
all the excellent improvements which had been made. lie I`-01
by no means disposed to deny that an increase
eist
bishops would be advantageous, but let them snake tues
increase in such a manner as to make it most available for tf
general efficiency of the whole church. Was there any Pru"
before them that if they were to have 27 instead of 20 Bisher
the best mode to do that was by keeping the dioceses of
Asaph and Bangor separate ? Whether they looked to the eat
tent of the territory— the number of benefices—or the einty
of the population of these dioceses, it would be seen that
stood in less need of the episcopal superintendence of !elis
Bishops than other dioceses in England. He said there
,re,
another question which ought to be considered before ip
committed themselves to any alteration—that was, the wPriss
parochial clergy throughout the kingdom. The want great, and admitted on all hands ; but he said, if he was right'
le
and if they adopted the Bill on the table, they would stills
directly at the possibility of that improvement. The ?Tr,
Earl then alluded to the report of the Church Cemmisilei
twhte,;
churches,ceh,,i
lsa toaennrndeutreferringconnected
mt,with
hn
sit
the
ef the
Establishmentsei want as nutppof
rt , t
statedhclergy,sey chapels,dt_hatth, o 0 12:111
of clergy, and the means of their support—was the greatest
and the most urgent ; but that, notwithstanding this nrgelee;
all that could be done to meet it was to enneif
yourwish d toto
augment
th h let
number
abdeur aol lf
bishoOpns. thGaotodaccount the
Noble Earl did not agree with thosey who in such circurnstan-0.
as that Prf
position per se might be, and even •f the necessity °he
particular bishopric were made out, heriLiet.couldveiletZitrint Bill, so long as there existed a more
church establi.hment. Ile opposed the 11Mt:erefore, Put;
on the ground on which he stood when he sought to itnPrlet
the efficiency of the church. But there was one other P°,oo
on which he wished to animadvert. The union of the
,lbst
sees was resisted by a Reverend Prelate, on the ground.leig
these sees were ancient. Now he begged to caution tps
Lordships against a feeling, little other than superstitious, "e,
w s attached to things that had become consecrated by trot,
and sacred ; a feeling which, if they should foliow! st
might lead them to a conclusion which others had arrive`st
in the Paine way, that there was but one true Church, and so
the Church of Rome, and that the Episcopal Church se
schismatical and altogether in error. He therefore oPP°I-
the press nt Bill.
got
Lord ELDON, in supporting the Bill, said he would reeee
to preclude any party from benefits which they would othere;„
have received ; and if it did so, when the Bill went into e° og
mittee, if Noble Lords allowed it to go there, he
evould,lloo
resist any clause which might be inserted to
preserve f,° be
benefits for them. He wished, however, that it she'll?
of
remarked hat the Noble Earl has brought forward the Bill of
one object and one alone, disjoined from any larger views
state affairs, with which he thought it ought not to be
rnixed„:l p 4
The Bishop of OXFORD begged their Lordships w'sle
bear with him while he addressed them very briefly 1, of
wished to address them the more, after hearing the speee,,se.
the Noble Marquis ( Lansdowne), who had grounded his egewitel tion on entirely different reasons than those asserted by self
on former occasions. The Noble Marquis sheltered hie)-be
under the Commission, and yet ho urged the withdrawal of...ft
revenues of the Bishops, and the application of them to the r
rochial clergy ; urging them, therelore, to do that which s`'
repugnant to the very spirit of the Commission. The Margo is
o
urged his opposition to the Bill from the constitution (,)! the Commission ; that in it were the Primate of all Englen
Primate of York, and the Bishop of London, whose chore° d)
and judgment gave it weight. But he (the Bishop of Ox pet,
said they ought to look at the details; one „to
mate was absent, another Primate would
doe
in favour of the Bill, and the Bishop of Lon,
had delivered a speech in support of it. Thad
those who had been against it, after deliberation, came roan
ete
and supported the opposite opinion ; that fact, too, °:
against the argument that had been drawn from the revel',
mendation of the Commissioners in their report. The tloo
e
tion, now being clear and open, was—should there never
augmentation of English Bishops? He held an opinion beat,,
rectly opposite to those that had been expressed—that wherfsg
great whole, a great institutton needed reform of abuses, °lf
that could not be done by the expression of something mere,'
abstract, but that the amendment and reform must be attains
by immediately removing the abuses and evils. It had bee"-
acknowledged that the founding of a see at Manchester 01
necessary; he contended then that this was the duty 0s
their Lordships. As to the whole number
Bishops, he referred their Lordships to the retail%
numbers that were in France before and after kt",;
Revolution ; in Spain and in Greece ;
and to those enenwe
which Latimer, and the early English Prelates, thought oughtr
to he in the kingdom of England ; which he considered answbeo
sufficient to some arguments that had been used againstJJ
t
Bill. For the sake of the common truth which they he
together, he trusted their Lordships_ would concur in suPP°ft,
isg the Bill of the Noble Earl. He begged to alml°gi'eor
having se long taken up their Lordships' attention.
The Earl of POWIS replied.
Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared—
For the Bill, content 3B
Not content
M. jority for the second reading —lO
The Marquis. f LANSDOWNE said that it was not hs
tention to give any further opposition to the measure, but tO
leave the Noble Earl to take his own cow se. He did n°4
however, alter the opinions which he entertained.
'their Lordships then adjourned at Reif-past Ten. •

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 20.
SUGAR DUTIES—COMMITTEE OF WAYSAYS A,ID
M
The order of the dayfEorArNeSsOlving the House into a
Committee of Ways and Means was then read.
S:r W. CLAY presented a petition from the sugar
refiners of Sunderland, in favour of an alteration in t`").e
present sugar duties. The
petitioners complained that
under the existing law the supply of sugar was deficient, and that unless an alteration was made to admit suPPild
of sugar from all countries, great inconvenience
wati
take place. Last year the quantity received was short„,
The
of the demand, and this year it would be more so. "-
petitioners therefore prayed that all foreign sugar should
be admitted at the same rate of duty.
Messengers from the House of Lords brought or
several Bills, which were ordered to be laid on the tablo•
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said--)fri;
Speaker: Sir, if her Majesty's Ministers had hee t
disposed to consult their own ease, they would 11%
in the present state of affairs on the sugar
questi°,r
propose any considerable alteration in its duties ; i
would have many reasons to allege in support of tl'i
course ; they could have alleged the advanced
state of the session—the labour which the House linj
just gone through, the recent formation of the Geverll;
ment, and the intricacy of some of the dettuid
connected with this question. These reasons wool
have formed ill the eyes of many grounds sufficient foror
postponement to another session of any large,
considerable, or permanent alteration of the elt!tio
o
on this question. But, Sir, in our opinion'
there are considerable evils suffered by tL,S
these
country in connexion with the present state of o
duties.--(Hear, hear.) We, Sir, consider that the grc
of
body of the public suffer by the increased Priceoo7,
sugars—a commodity of which no less than 12,000.0
L
a year, or a sum ranging from 11,000,u0w
to 13,000,000/, is expended in this country. NV° e