The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-19 00:00:00

tion of the Government to wait a report from Lord Elgin,
I and to, give Parliament an opportunity of considering the
subject, before any privileges of the Hudson's Bay Corn-
I pany were renewed ; and the answer of Mr. Hawes,
I that he (Mr. Christy) had understood him correctly;
that Government had not come to any decision, and in-
I tended to wait for the report of Lord Elgin, and that.
before any decision was finally come to, Lord Grey would
give ample opportunity for the consideration of the
subject.] He considered that there had been a complete
breach of faith. What was his surprise when the Hon.
Member came to him and said he believed something was
going on ! He (Mr. Hume) said it could not be; bat so it
was. This was not the fault of the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. C. Buller), or of the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell); he
had to complain, and he did complain, not only in this in-
stance, but in other instances, of the conduct of the Colonial
Secretary. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Buller) said
there had been a great mistake as to the capabilities of
Vancouver's Island; that it had no water, no wood, and was
not calculated for colonization. Now, he (Mr. Hume) held
in his hand a report from Mr. Douglas, a public officer of
the Hudson'aßay Company, which stated that there was an
abundance of timber on the island ; that its coast was in-
dented with bays and inlets, having good anchorage ; and
that the soil had great capabilities for agriculture. The
Right lion. Gentleman said that the soil was bad ; but this
gentleman stated that more than two-thirds of the
surface of the island was prairie land, and other
parts were covered with valuable oak and the finest timber;
that the climate was mild and pleasant, and that there
might be grown upon the island any kind of grain that was
raised in England. This was the place which the Right
Hon. Gentleman said was unworthy of being attended to
until every other part of the world had been colonised. Sir
George Simpson, in a letter dated the 21st of June, 1844.
said that the country and climate were " remarkably fine ;"
that the soil was fit for agriculture, and the rearing of domes-
tic cattle; and that the place would become important, and
was better calculated for a depot for trade than any place in
its neighbourhood. In other respects this island was im-
portant in a commercial view. We had lost by our absurd
law the southern whale fishery, and this island might be
made the resort of the whale fishery. Sir G. Simpson stated
that American whale ships had resorted there, and that he
thought it likely to become a depot for that purpose,
as it was much nearer the fishing ground than
California. We were now handing over this island to a
company of the despotic character which the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had so forcibly described. The
other Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Buller) asked whether'
capital would not find its way thither if it could be advan-
tageously employed; but it was not so much capital that
was wanted as settlers. It was by giving employment that
colonies arose; but he believed the object of the company
was to keep out all colonization in order to engross the fur
trade, since colonization would. to a certain degree, en;
croach upon the trade of the company. He thought the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had made out such
a case against the Government that the House ought
to address her Majesty not to rant a charter to the com;
pany without inquiry. The Columbia River, which the
Americans had, was obstructed by bars; Vancouver's.lsland,
so available for trade, was distant from China only a
voyage of 18 days. Plenty of men and plenty of capital
would go there if the settlers were independent. There
were coal-fields covering 50 square miles in the island, the
coal cropping out at the top, and costing but little to raise;
it was lamentable, therefore, to think that, anxious as we
were to promote colonization by self•governing settlers, we
should surrender such an opportunity to this company. The
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Buller) had laboured to prove
that " for ever," in the grant, meant only a limited time;
but he found that Sir John Pelly asked for land "in perpe•
tuity," and that there were the following words in the grant :
"W e do make, create, and constitute the said governor
and company for the time being, and their successors,
the true and absolute lords and proprietors of the said terri-
tories, &c., for ever, to be holden of us in free and common
soccage, at the yearly rent of 75., payable to us and
our ancestors for ever."—(Loud laughter, occasioned by the
Hon. Member reading " ancestors" for " successors.") Prince
Edward's Island had been divided amongst 18 people in one
day, on condition that, for every acre, they should bring two
Protestants to settle on it. They had never brought one
settler, yet they were allowed to hold, and did hold, the land
for 50 years. In the present case it was not what the coin •
pany was permitted to do, but what they were allowed to
prevent others from doing. No man who read the papers
could hesitate to come to the conclusion that the company, a
body of monopolists, were to have the sole and entire posses-
sion of this large island, 250 miles long by 50 broad. Ile
proposed to move, and to take the sense of the House upon
the motion, "That an humble address be presented to her
Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be pleased not to
grant a charter to the Hudson s Bay Company, until further
inquiry has been made into the administration by the com-
pany of the settlement on the Red River, and until the ca•
pabilities of Vancouver's Island have been fully ascertained."
Mr. P. HOWARD said, the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Buller) had not grappled with the arguments of the Right
Non. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gladstone), who had shown
that the grant eonterred very wide powers upon a company
who were manifestly not promoters of colonization. He
quite agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite in
many of the views of this important subject which he had
taken, and he was sure the House and the country would
agree with him when he said it was a matter of no trifling
moment to England that in Vancouver's Island there should
be a thickly populated colony, capable of counterbalancing
neighbouring and, perhaps, hostile states. England should
there possess a colony of sufficient weight and power to be
useful in balancing the influence of the United States. He,
therefore, held that her Majesty's Government ought not to
be backward in following out the views of the Hon. Gentle-
man opposite, and of those who expressed similar sentiments
in the course of the present discussion.
Mr. HAWES wished to put the House right with respect
to the letter on which the charges against the Noble Earl at
the head of the Colonial-office had been founded. That
letter had no relation whatever to the subject now under
discussion. It was addressed to him on the 4th of April,
1848. by the Hon. Member for Newcastle (as we understood),
and his answer to that letter was very speedily returned.
In that letter the Hon. Member inquired if he were to under-
stand the Government as saying that they would give Par-
liament an opportunity of considering the report that had
been made on the subject of Vancouver's Island before they
granted any additional privileges to the Hudson's Bay Com-
pany. To this inquiry he (Mr. Hawes) replied that the
Hon. Member was quite right in concluding that no decision
would be immediately pronounced on the differences between
the Hudson's Bay Company and the settlers on the Red
River. Until after they had had communication with Lord
Elgin on the subject, the Colonial-office did not intend to
come to any decision. It must be obvious, then, to the
House that this correspondence had nothing whatever to do
with the colonization of Vancouver's Island; it merely re-
lated to the differences between the company and the set-
tlers; it was, therefore, unconnected with the present
question.
Mr. CHRISTY observed that the Government had had
full notice, and might easily have brought the subject under
the consideration of Parliament. As there appeared to be
some slur thrown on the source from which he had derived
his information, he begged to say that his informant was
well acquainted with the circumstances which he detailed,
and, if it would not be occupying the attention of the House
too long, he would lay before them the fullest and most
satisfactory testimonials touching the respectability of that
gentleman. He was a clergyman, and the Roman Catholic
missionary at the Red River settlement. It happened that
that gentleman was instrumental in drawing up the petition
that had been presented to the Crown on this subject. His
informant, Mr. Belcourt Picton, certainly had been expelled
the settlement, but was shortly afterwards restored to his
position there through the interference of a society at the
head of which was the Noble Lord the Member for Arundel ;
that society, he believed, was called " the Society of St.
Thomas, of Canterbury ;" and, through its agency, Mr.
Belcourt Picton was restored to his flock.

Mr. WYLD observed that Vancouver's Island was a
most important commercial as well as a political position ; it
was the sentinel of the Pacific Ocean ; it covered all our
colonies in the basin of the Pacific—it was thirty-six days'
sail from Chusan, thirty-sine days' from Canton, forty-six
days' from Sydney, forty-three days' from New Zealand, and
when the shores of Western America were covered
with a busy population, Vancouver's Island, from
the superiority of its harbour, would be the
great commercial depot of that part of the world. The
Hon. Member for Liskeard had said that no return trade
could be carried on with Vancouver's Island. Was he
aware of the trade in salmon between this coast and China?
Its agricultural products were exported to the northern Rus-
sian settlements, and some of the spars were of the finest
quality. Were the Government to make a pre-
sent to the Hudson's Bay Company of these vain-
able materials for the British navy? The Hudson's
Bay Company, during the negotiations with the United
States concerning the Oregon territory, did all they could to
conceal the nature and extent of its productions, and it wits
not until the American Government proposed to establish
steam communication throughout the Pacific that the great
value of this island as a coal producing country was known,
wweedrothtebieryantstoietbyavtoo
nybushto
oabntdaitnhe
iltludfrsots
tßhaey
CCroowmnpa;
these coals without payment, when the lessees
of the island of Labuan were compelled to pay a royalty of
2s. 6d. per ton? Why the Government might obtain a rent
of several thousands per annum from this source alone,
which might be applied to sending out emigrants to this
island. The Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Buller) had
said that the expense of sending emigrants to Vancouver's
Island would be 501. per head. This was a great mistake.
There was a large trade between Great Britain and the
western coasts of South America in copper ore, guano, and
other products. The ships from England were sent out to
bring home these cargoes, either laden with coal, which was
carried at a nominal freight, or in ballast only. The ship-
owner would be too happy to take out emigrants at a cost
of 17/, per head passage money, as be is almost certain of a
return cargo homeward. This was not the occasion for
entering into the peculiar privileges of the Hudson's Bay
Company, but he would call the attention of the Houle
to the fact, that the exports from Great Britain by tho
Hudson's Bay Company had not increased within the last
100 years. They sent two or three ships laden with British
manufacture at that time, they sent the same number 0
vessels now; and what was the effect of their monopoly?
Why, that they prevented an increase of trade, which would
benefit our great manufacturing cities, that they might levy
an enormous charge for freightage—and the trade, insteadof
benefitting Great Britain, was thrown illicitly into the hands
of the Americans.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the question bad been tree*
by the Hon. Member for Montrose in rather a singular
runner. He had given notice of an intention to call the
attention of the House to the proposed grant of Vancouver's
Island to the Hudson's Bay Company, and had made la
speech in keeping with that motion. The Hon. . Member
e H
who seconded him took the same course,but subsequently
the Hon. Member for Montrose again rose and proposed that
the House should at once come to a specific conclusion on
the question.
Mr. HUME explained that_ he merely proposed delay in

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order that time might be had for inquiry.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that if the motion of the
Honourable Member were agreed to all steps in the
way of colonization must be postponed until the year
after next, and in the meantime the island would have
been settled by the Americans.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Lord J. Russell) admitted that it would be very
desirable if any company or individuals would under-
take the task of colonization immediately, but they could
not shut their eyes to the tact that the territory in question
had been obtained by treaty in 1846; that since then it had
been notorious that the Crown would grant land west of the
Rocky Mountains, and yet Lord Grey had received only one
tangible offer, that of the Hudson's Bay Company.—(Hear,
hear.) The Hon. Member opposite made two objections to
the company, one as to their being a monopoly, and the other
as to their being despotic in their government. Now, how-
ever true that might be, it had no relation to the subject
rater. The company's charter must remain in force until
of trading with the Indians for 21 years, and it was not pro-
posed, at the present time, to give them any new or exclu •
awe
g As to the apprehension of despotic govern-
ment, the pre:. sent proposal was to establish a Government
on the basis of a free constitution. Surely, the Hon. Member
could hardly be digatiafied with the proposal of • • lw/tog every