The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-13 00:00:00

HOSIERY AND LACE TRADE.

RAILWAY COMMITTEES

(YESTERDAY.)

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
HOUSE OF LORDS.

Their Lordships met this morning in Room 1, House of Lords, a
eleven o'clock, Lord Shaftesbury in the chair.
The further consideration of the
DIIMBLANE, DOUNE, AND CALLANDAR
50 was postponed till Tuesday : as was that of the

% dis

14f;
1
34 dis
p
1

The condition of the cotton atocking-makers is not in
the least improved, the supply in almost every instance
exceeding the demand. A sort of fever is again com-
mencing to emigrate to the United States, where the
hosiery trade, it is asserted, is very brisk at German
Town, Philadelphia, and New York, not only for stock-
ing-makers, but for frame-making, frame-smiths being
in great request in the former place. This is entirely
attributed to the heavy duty of 33 per cent., which is
vigorously levied on hosiery, the duty being demanded
th instant the goods are landed, and that not upon the
declared value of th, importer, as in Holland and Great
Britain, but upon such value as the American authori-
ties choose to put upon them, which is frequently so
much above their real value, that we have heard of
one house trading to New York that has been charged
Viren'he'vnaeoltrt of 10,0001. in duties over the sale price.
trade would be i
and more r heard of
a
duty,great many frames being made,
,to be sent out to the States. The
which is
taken upon
were it not for the 33 per cent.
in value, and not mrna
Derby price, making
freightage, an additional iscil'u
worth in England 201., is !tar
the New York or Philadelphia
00 mile carriage and
„ithe .I.s`ttingham,,rLehuicseastferra,moer
uredellt.
customs at 351., upon which is chargeiatt
121., making 47/. The carriage toAmerican
sa tile kTeonwonu tab°byttai
3' Liverpool,3 about
43xe
23L,
freight, land, and cartage would amount to 5/, mores,
;CObsut
but if
the
tthe
framesame aftraGmeermi
fifty makingguineas
the
and thus he would gain
stockinger emigrant the cos,
0 b wouldy theonly
ade in imitation of
state, and for extra fine gloves?
The cotton-glove trade still keeps in a pretty good
Flemish flax articles, the demand is exceeding the supply.
It is not generally known, but repeated experiments
have proved that cotton will outwear any other fibrous
article. A wheelband, or other band made of cotton,
will wear double the time of silk, wool,
silk grass ; but fine flax has a gloss and a brilliancy
that cotton can never arrive at. flax, hemp, or
The silk trade, we regret to state, keeps retrograding.
Fancy hosiery, except a few mitts, seems upon the point
of extinction in this district, contrasting highly with the
state of Leicester, which has an extensive run of
worsted warp Jacquard shawls.
The drawer, pantaloon, and shirt branch is not much
amended. We must again repeat that we are perfectly
astonished that the India-rubber web is not applied to
the waistband, the knees, and ankles of these articles,
though they have been applied by the French with great
advantage for more than five years. The manufacture
of this web is very extensive, employing more than
three hundred braid machines, the greater part of
which are in Lambeth. It has been carried on princi-
pally by four firms—namely, Messrs. Nickels, Lambeth;
the Caoutchouc Company, London ; Messrs. Bedells,
Leicester ; and Messrs. Ross and Bell, late of London,
but now of Mount East-street, Nottingham. After a
sort of war between the London hosiers and the Caout-
chouc Company, in which Sir P. Laurie acted as the

bottle-holder, the Caoutchoue Company fell under the IMPERIAL P A RI,/ AMEN T.
sole control, or very nearly s,-,, of Mr. Leaf, of the Old
TIOUS2 OF LORDS,June Iq.
slighte lc?
lwi c
es
nkei re ms
to
os hainnf ,p
eurnsiot
ne. ds
The Loan CHANCELLOR. took his seat on the Woolsack at
Five o'clock.
wC
ihtahnNgiee, s
smr, I is
.oN, after
cfkt eerl
ss,o‘mv
hoo
but Messrs. Bedells, of Leicester, who, it is asserted, have MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
male terms with them. The fourth party have continu- Messengers from the Commons brought up certain Bills.
ally hoisted the standard of defiance, and having obtAined Lord LYTTELTON laid upon the table of the House cer-
a patent in October, 1843, seemed determined to carry on lain papers containing information respecting the colonies of
the manufacture. An injunction was served unon them ; New Zealand, Australia, and Ne A foundiand.
but on the Bth ult. this was removed by the Vice-Chan- EDUCATION.
cellor. The conjoined patentees are now proceeding at The Bishop of BANGOR presented several petitions from
different places in Wales in favour of a better and more ex-
common law ; a writ and declaration has been issued from
the Common Pleas, to which the Nottingham factory- tended system of education in Wales.
owners mean to plead, and a jury must now decide the The Mara o NORM ANBY presented a numerou,ly-
PUNISHMENT OF DEATH.
question. It appears that the method was a communi-
signed petitconinsfroftn the county of Down (Ireland) against the
cation from Prussia. punishment of death.
The manufacture of ribbed gloves is succeeding to the CRIMINAL REFORMATION.
utmost wishes of the ingenious workman who has intro- The Bishop of OXFORD presented several petitions from the
duced them. This promises to be an extensive and city of Oxford, praying their Lordships would take some mea-
valuable trade ; as the article is sound, elegant, and sures for instituting a place of refuge for criminals who had
good, and, we understand, is extremely difficult to make. been liberated, and enable them to obtain an honest living.
The fancy bobbin-net trade has not improved ; and FORGERIES BY A CLERK IN IRELAND.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE rose to draw the atten-
is, however, so brisk in France, that we have bad several
tion of. their Lord.htps to the conduct of a clerk to a certain
of the machine-owners in Nottingham for the purpose of
m in Ireland, who had committed some very extensive for.
extending their arrangements. Prices have not lowered genies, yet who had been liberated without being brought
since our last. to trial for such a proceeding.
The warp lace trade is still worse, and the journey- I PROTECTION TO AGRICULTURE.
men have been reduced with some houses another 2d. A NOBLE LORD presented several petitions from Salop and
per rack yard, or frm Is. in March last to Bd, in June. other places praying that their Lordships would give protec-
A good hand, working a 96 inch frame, making 24 tion to British agriculture.—( Hear, hear. )
yards, is said to receive 16s. ; but after paying a!1 TENANT RIGHT.
charges for frame-rent, &c.. he has ss. 30. to take home The Duke of RICHMOND gave notice that he would, in
to his family, and that for eighty hours hard labour.—
the Committee on the Corn Bill, move for the insertion
of a clause fur the purpose of allowing all tenants to vacate
/Vet tingha nt%lournal. their leases and to receive compensation for their exhausted
crops. A Noble Lord said that he never had subscribed to the
Cheshire Agricultural Protection Society, but he had the
roinutls of the Cheshire Protection Society before him, in
which he found Lord Delamere's name down as having sub-
scribed 251., and as being an annual subscriber of two guineas.
CORN IMPORTATION BILL—ADJOURNED
DEhATE.

The Marquis of EXETER then opened the adjourned
debate on the Corn Imrortation Bill, but in so low a tone
as to be almost wholly inaudible in the reporters' gallery. He
was understood to implore their Lordships not lightly to
abandon the present protection to agriculture, and asked what
sort of arguments had been adduced in support of the second
reading of this Bill.—(" Hear," from the Duke of Richmond.)
The Noble Lord then referred to the years 1792, 1793, and
1794, when, he stated, the price of wheat was 50s. with a
protective duty of 245., but owing to the extremely low
tone in which he spoke, the tendency of his remarks
were, as we have said, inaudible in the gallery.
The Noble Lord then went into a statistical statement, for the
purpose of showing that the free-trade principle, as developed in
the tate tariff, had not worked so favourably as to justify
the deductions which had been made by the Minister—
that an entire free trade in corn would be beneficial to
the country ; on the contrary, he could show that it
would have a most disastrous effect, by throwing land out of
cultivation, it would not remunerate the farmer for his labour,
in consequence of the low rate at which corn would be sold.
When the price of corn fell, rents were always found to decline
in proportion ; and thus the landowner and the tenant
would be mutually injured, while the country would
lose the benefit of having a revenue which should
be maintained in some sort, and the only way it could be
maintained would be by laying some heave tax upon property,
which it would not ba able to pay. Under the old system
agriculture had flourished and the country prospered, and he
did not see with what rests in they sought to change it ; and,
believing that the measure would be hurtful to that country and
injurious to her interests, he would give it his most decided
opposition.
Several Noble Lords rose at the conclusion of the Noble
Marquis's speech to address their Lordships, but there loing
loud cries for Earl Delawarr,
Earl DELAWARR aecordirgly proceeded to address their
Lordships, and said that he rose to perform a painful ditty
in reference to this question. From the first moment
that these measures were announced to the public, and at the
commencement of the present year, he felt that he should be
called upon, as an humble individual, to say aye or no to these
measures in his place in Parliament. and he foresaW that he
should be placed in painful and difficult circumstances. On
the one hard, the question of severing himself from strong
political attachments presented itself ; and on the other hand,
stern requirements of duty and conscience. He felt that a ques-
tion of this magnitude and importance, involving fearful changes
according to his opinion, required that he should give, when
called upon to express his opinion on the subject, a solemn and
serious consideration. He had laboured hard and long with
those ego ha.l brought forward this measure, and he felt that
it was an honour to be associated with
.such a name; but he
&so felt that great as that honour might be considered, it was
of far inferior importance with the duty of acting according
to his conscience in reference to this Bill. -( Hear, hear. )
The Noble Lord, who seemed much affected, proceeded to say
that at that protracted period of the debate he would not enter
into the details of the process which brought him to the con-
clusion to which he had ultimately arrived; suffice it to say,
that all the attention he could command he devoted to the
consideration of the subject, but all the arguments
advanced failed to convince him that there was anything
in the exigencies of the present time to cell for the adoption of
such a measure, or that any irresistible circumstances had
suddenly come upon us—he would not say to change the cur-
rent of their legislation, for they were told that it was but fol-
lowing in the course of their past legislation—but he held
that nothing had occurred to induce them to draw up the
flood-gates which stemmed its too sudden impetuosity.
He would not impute any improper motives to the Right Hon.
Baronet ( Sir R. Peel), and the Noble Duke (the Duke of
Wellington), or to the other Members of the Government, for
the course they had adopted had been taken, as on former oc-
casions, because they considered it swould benefit the country.
He thought they were mistaken, but that never-
theless they had carried it out with a single-
ness and sincerity of purpose.—(Hear, hear.) It had been
said " what was the use of resisting the measure—what would
they obtain by their opposition—public opinion was in its
favour, and if it was not carried this session it would be carried
the next ?" He begged to deny that the public were in favour
of it—( Hear, hear)—for it was well known that a great number
of Noble Lords in that House, and Members of
the other House of Parliament, who had supported
it, stated that they very much disliked the Bill
in its present shape, and that a very large number in both
Houses disliked the principle of the Bill altogether; and there-
fore it was not fair to suppose that the public were in favour
of it, and he believed if their opinion were asked it would be
found not to be in favour of it.—(Hear, hear.) He doubted
much whether it would be found that the well disposed
portion of the community were in favour of any
change in the present state of things.--( Hear, hear.)
There was one important fact in connexion with this measure,
that they were not allowed fair play in the expression of their
feelings. It was pushed forward as a party measure. If
Noble Lords did their duty and fearlessly, honestly and manfully
looked at the measure as it was proposed to them, they might
yet escape from the difficulties by which they were surrounded.
He had endeavoured thus to discharge a painful duty, and to
declare that he could not assist in passing a Bill that would
be so detrimental to the landed interest.
The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S wished to be allowed to say a
few words on the measure before their Lordships, and he could
assure them it was not because he intended to enter into a
discussion of the general merits of this great question, which
had been already so well done by ether Noble Lords, but
to state the grounds why he thought it necessary
to address the House. He must say that the subject was so
alien to his usual pursuits, that he did not put himself up as an
authority of the slightest weight, and could envence no new
facts and arguments to those which had been already stated.
It was from a different motive that he broke silence and claimed
their attention. He spoke in his own defence. It could not
be forgotten that during the ree- nt discussion repeated refer.
ence was made to that portion of the House where he sat, and
those references were of such a nature, and contained charges
as to their motives and opinions on that bench which required
that he should claim, in explanation of the vote he had given,
their attention for a short time. He wished it to be under-
stood that he was speaking simply on his own part, and he was
not presumptuous enough to stand forth as their advocate, but
in the statements which he would make he would have their
concurrence. Those charges, he was agreeably surprsed, only
came from one party in them Lordships' House, and that was
the party who opposed the measure. He would not have been
surprised had those charges come from another quarter, and
that it had been said that they wished to prevent the blessing,'
of Providence from being spread over the land. There might
have been texts of Scripture quoted against them in order to
raise the popular prejudice, but he admired the wisdom
mmaenad.
ur
stheein notforbearancealluding to any arguments of the patlieaswuhmoepnrtos
like sedthe presentthose.They were
fallacies; not the less so because they were brilliant and pointed,
but because they took for granted the question in dispute.
They took for granted that these blessings would accrue from
this meusure—a question which was a matter of the most se-
rious dispute; but he was surprised that such arguments
suould have been resorted to, as their Lordships must see that
such arguments might have been used against themselves. In
making these appeals those Noble Lords should recollect what
were the consequences likely to result from the policy which
they assumed to be the right one. They should recollect that
the question submitted to that Committee was submitted under
the supposition that the clergy were the representatives and
guardians of the interests of the labouring population. They
should recollect that other Noble Lords, in the course of their
several speeches, had emphatically thrown overboard every
consideration of this matter as a landlords' question ; that they
had given to the labouring population all the interests which
they themselves professed to hold, and that they bad simply
considered how far the result might conduce to the general
benefit. They had allowed that the interests of the community
at large were paramount. Why, then, should they in taking
the clergy as the representatives of the interests of the labour-
ing classes—and he believed that they were right in so consi-
dering them—why, then, did they take up such a diminutive
and insignificant point as that of the interference with the
incomes of the clergy? This, at least, appeared to be unjust
in itself, and injurious to the parties of whom they spoke. He
believed the clergy themselves, in the consideration of this
question, would never condescend to consider so unimportant
a mattter as the reduction of their own incomes. It appeared
to him that they were indications (and they were the more
valuable indications because perfectly involuntary) of some-
thing which those Noble Lords were willing to conceal, not
only from their Lordships, but from themseves.—( Cheers. )
And he wished their Lordships to recollect the vehement
language in which they were addressed by one of those Noble
Lords, who held out some vain and indefinite threat of the con-
sequences that were to follow upon the Members of that (the
episcopal) bench ; if, as he said, their Lordships deserted a
law—not the interests of their country—not the interests of the
labouring population—not any one of those which might be ex-
pected to be dear and sacred to them (the Bishops) in the
character which they had to sustain—but the Noble Lord
said, if they deserted them, he (the Bishop of St. David's) did not
know what retribution was to follow, nor did he care, but he
wished to draw their Lordships' attention to the point
of what was uppermost in the mind of his Lordship at the
time that he spoke. Why, it was clear from what the Noble
Lord said, it was not a question of the labouring
classes—not a question even of the tenant-farmers, but a
other-
wise he
sureas ant:
tait.trh
circumstance
Noblerm
st
aLnocred
twh
aotulwd
sn es
tviel
lr
moreerect:
question cf the landlords.—( Cheers.) If it had been
ave
dressed such an appeal to their Lordships.—( Hear, hear.)
Now, thewreasw
mat kable, and that was, that those Noble Lords should ex-
press so much sympathy for the interests of the
clergy as to
appear to understand their wishes and feelings better than the
clergy themselves.—(Hear, hear.) Why, not only have the
clergy, as a body, publicly expressed no feelings on this sub-
ject.—( Hear, hear )—not only had they
abstainedfrom ap-
proaching their Lordships' House with petitions—(Hear,
hear)—but they had never, to thebest
his (the Bishop of
St. David's) knowledge, in private signified to them, the
members of that (the episcopal) bench, any wish as to the
course of conduct which th •
ey would desire them to pursue on
that occasion.—(in Hear, bear.) He considered that the clergy
so doing-4 Cheers)-- hadapprobation and
earned the
the respect of all who knew them. But what was the ten-
dency of the appeals which them by those
Noble Lords had been made t o •
. except that they (the Bishops) should volun-
tarily and officiously
in this question, interfere • n, and so place
the clergy exactly
ip that very invidious and dangerous posi-
tion which they themselves had declined to stand in ?—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) He should like to know, would any of
their Lordships say what would be the effect upon the public

duty, but on the lesser one r f expedieucv—and the reply was,
that he had not got the money. These duties were the great
responsibilities attendant upon the possession of land. The
peasantry of the country saw their own state and the state of
their children before them day after day, and they naturally
looked round them for a remedy, and the only remedy that
presented itself was an improved condition of the country. Rut
Noble Lords said that the measure was not calculated to im-
prove the condition of the country ; that the home market was
the best field of oeeration, and that. would be totally destroyed
by this measure. If the agricultural and manufacturing
interest way redly on the veree rf destruction, are! the effect
of the measure would be such as was stated, what would he
the consequence? Why, their Lordships would have to re-
trace their steps, and that would be the worst evil it would
draw upon them. I here was one tear, and the only one of
which he thought their Lordships capable, and that was the
fear of being thought afraid. They were afraid that they
should be thought to have changed their minds with regard to
this measure through a fear which they did not wish even to
set mto feel. When Mr. Burke said at Bristol that he would
raise the woollen manufacture to steeply the world by admit-
ting foreign competition, he was almost hooted off the stage
with that sort of marked dissent to which many in that House
were not strangers.—(Laughter.) He hoped that they would
not he misled by that eloquence which of late had tickled their
ears, and by arguments which painted over facts, which had
been proved to be nothing but rottenness and delusion.
He did believe that there was in the minds of the English
people a deep•seated conviction that their Lordships would
act in the question for the good of the majority, and he en-
treated their Lordships not to disappoint that feeling. It was
said, it would have been better had this question been first
submitted to 'the electoral body of the country; but, in his
opinion, such a course would have been fatal, if not disgrace-
ful, to the character of a great statesman. Besides, it would
have been unfair, because the masses would have been led
away by appeals to feelings rather than to sense. Class
would have been pitted against class, and the whole country
would have been thrown into a state of wild excitement and
commotion, without removing the difficulties or evils this mea-
sure was proposed to meet. Let their Lordships remember, that
the labouring classes of this country who had
long borne continued suffering with a petient endurance of
which no other nation in the world efferded an example—looked
to them to do something to remove the evils under which they
were suffering. He besought their Lordships not to disappoint
these expectations—expectations roused by the vast wisdom,
ability, and known justice of their Lordships. He entreated
them not to mistake the quietness of the endurance of the people
for anything like apathy or unconcern. Such quietness was a
sign of the times in which they lived. The people had never
evinced so little of anything like a turbulent spirit of dissatis-
faction as they did at the present moment ; but it was not
because there was no suffering—it was not because the pre-
valent misery was confined to a few classes only, but because
the people felt] that those who were in power had mani-
fested a disposition to do all they could to relieve their
sufferings,--(Hear, hear.) He besought their Lord-
ships, then, not to attempt to stem the
torrent of universal conviction, but, to be guided by wise and
equitable principles. Do not, he implored them, let the people
think that they had the power and the wealth of an ancient
aristocracy without its virtues. but. by the division, of that
night, show the country that the wisdom, justice, and impar-
tiality of their Lordships' mighty House still remained as great
as ever.—( Cheers )
Lord ASHBURTON said in the course of the whole of
this discussion he had heard nothing so personal, nothing so
eloquently admonitory, as the speech of the Right Rev. Prelate;
but he must confess, eloquent though the speech was, it ap-
peared to him to be totally devoid of all argument. It was
something like a speech made during the French revolution,
in which the speaker recommended his auditors to "respect
property, but change its proprietors "—( Hear, hear, and
laughter.) The Right Rev. Prelate told them, in the
same breath, that their labourers and tenantry were
in great distress, and the only means of removing it
was for them to saerifiee half their property.—( H ar, hear,)
He confessed he could not see wisdom in the force or applica-
bility of such a recommendation ; and he, for one, trusted
their Loniships would not be influenced by the eloquence of
the language, or the rhetorical fieures in which the advice wes
conveyed.—, Hear, here.) The Right Reverend Prelate bad
told them that the corn-laws were unnatural, and had ven-
tured to propound the prineiple, that the less they lute fered
with the laws of neture the mere wise and efficacious their
legislation would be. Why he had always heard it said that
self-preservation was one of the first laws of nature; and
nothing, he thought, could be more in favour of protection
than this branch of the Right Reverend Prelate's argument.
He then went or, to say how much thelaed might he improved.
Bat at the same time it was an unfair reproach to say that the
English farmer was behind-hand in the science of agriculture.
Far otherwise—for the fact was that he produced fully double
the quantity from the same portion of land than the farmer of
any other coentry in the world. It was true that the British
agriculturist went to the end of the world in search of artificial
manures. But even if they passed this measure, they would
ruin and take away his capital, and then could they call en him
to improve his land ? What, might be the fate of the British
farmer he could not say, but it was quite clear that the great
mass of them must be ruined. Not only under the present
system is the land made to produce more, but we have it on the
best authority, that of the Leaguers themselves, that one
English labourer was worth two of any other country. But
they did riot want those incitements to promote native industry
when her own people were so much beyond any other country.
And then his Right Reverend Friend had observrd that it
was wite in the Minister to make a serf's of exoeriments.
He could not agree in such a doctrine. Much as he admired
his talents and his eloquence, he considered it much better for
churchmen to keep to their church; for if they advocated such
doctrines,: and if they read such lectures on political eco-
nomy, they should not advance much in the science of legisla-
tion. The Learned Prelate had said that he considered this
measure worthy of support, as it would tend to produce a
steadiness of price in the markets. But he contended that,
under the present system, as great a steadiness was obtained
as possible, even if they legislated on the subject, and fixed a
stated price. For even when the markets of other countries
were disturbed—when the markets of France, of Spain, and of
Holland rose, no fluctuation occurred, though it might be ex-
pected in this country. But if he considered this measure of
the greatest possible advantage—if he were favourable to the
principle, and if he thought it desirable to remove protection,
he could not support the measure, as he believed it calculated
to defeat its own object, and fatal to the end it proposed to ac-
complish. And as the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Monteagle)
was fond of authorities, he would quote some. Mr. Huskissen,
in the year 1825, in the month of May, foresaw an approach-
ing bad harvest. There were then 400,000 quarters of wheat
in bond, and he proposed to let them out at a 10s. duty, the
price being then 755. per quarter, but so cautious was he in
not letting it out hastily upon the market that he let it out in
the proportion of thirds every month. He adverted to this to
show the caution which was requisite upon matters of such a
nature, and he wished to contrast it with what they were
about to do. They were going to let out two millions of
quarters, and that not in the proportion of thirds, but at once—
not at a lOs. duty, but a 4s. duty per quarter—at a season too
when there was the prospect of a good and an early harvest.
The market would necessarily be swamped. He, therefore,
believed that this measure was not suited in any degree what-
ever to accomplish its own object ; and neither did he believe
that its principle was good, he would, therefore, oppose it. They
talked of free trade—it was a very fine expresrion, but was that
free trade in which they opened their ports to every one, and
no one opened to them ? Was that the principle of mutuality ?
Was that the principle of reciprocity? Or did it prove that
the principles of Creetrade were the just ones? He would rather
say that they were the principles of uncommon nonsense. They
were about to open their ports to the rest of the world. The
e:mcequertee would be that when there was a scarcity they
would not receive any advantage from so doing —they would
receive no favour. Other countries would be equ ,lly benefited,
and the only advantage which would remain to England would
be that when shut haul a plentiful harvest, France, and Spain,
and Mintz c would help to drug her markets, and send their
wheat when it was tiot wanted. And now he wished to offer
one or two observations on a very important question. He
meant the colonies. And he begged to recall to their Lord-
ship,' recollection what had been stated with respect to the
feelings with which the Canadians would receive the inti-
ma inn of this legislative measure. They were all aware
that Lord Cathcart wrote a very urgent letter to
the Government, stating that it would create feel-
ines of distrust and disaffection amongst the Canadians;
and what must have been his conviction upon this subject
when he was so urgent in his remonstrances? It was seldom
that Governors-General had the hardihood to tell the whole
truth to their masters ; and the Noble Lord who last night
addressed them did not make any explanation but his speech ;
showed them how little explanation be had to offer on the sub-
js.( t, and that the feelings of the Canadians were in opposition
to the measure. They could not, he was sure, think of these
alternatives w thout being sensible of the care with which it
was their duty to examine the question, and of the firmness
with which they should act upon the determination to which
they should come.
Lord MONTEAGLE said, in matters of trade, as well as of
liberty, the great point rested upon individual' action. He
would not follow the Nobte Lord who had just spoken on the
burdens of land. The Noble Lord had again referred to the
tithe being a binder on the land. He (Lord Monteagle)
thought that this was a question so completely settled that no
rational man would have attempted for one moment to re-pro-
duce that statement. The late Mr. Sidney Smith, who was
more distinguished for his strong practical good sense than
his wit, put this question in a clear light.—( Tne Noble
Lord here quoted an extract from a pamphlet written
by the Reverend Gentleman about the time the great
excitement existed about tithes some years ago.
The Noble Lord then proceeded to read extraets from docu-
ments he held in his band, to show the difference between the
agricultural and the manufacturing population, which he con.
tended exhibited a decreasing per centage of the agricultural
population, and an increasing per centage of the manufacturing
population. He next, quoted from the work of a Mr. Jones,
to the same effect. He then went, on to say that be would
prove to his Noble Friend (the Duke of Richmond)
that protection to all--not protection to agriculture
merely, but to all articles, was the greatest fallacy
that he had ever heard of.—( Hear.) He had heard
it said that general protection was general robbery. Now he
did not wish to use bad language, and therefore he would call
it general nonsense. The Noble Lord then quoted the opi-
nions of several persons who had written against the corn-
laws, in order to illustrate his argument. He said he had
heard much said about the changes which had taken place in
the opinions of the Government; but he would ask how many
Noble Lords in that House were there whose opinions had not
also undergone a change upon the same subject? His Noble
Friend had objected to this new corn-law as an experiment ;
but he ( Lord Monteagle) would ask what were the original
corn-laws but a series of experiments ?—(Hear,. ha
The last Bill on this subject to which they were called to ad-
here was, by his Noble Friend in 1845, stated to be calculated
to lead to the result that the tenantry of England would be in
future in a more prosperous' condition ; b
were in distress, and had expended theireas lanother subject to
which he would refer, as it had often ftt
aaft, that
and t
woulde re-
quire they
some time to realise it. There
wa
been referred to before—
Tha t d e
pendency existed now, anfr
he alluded to our dependendcyby ontboiselaivictouwnoturidesb. e
removed.
In the present state of the law that dependency existed, and it
was for them to alter it by rendering the law more certain,
and less a vehicle of fraud and specula ion. His Noble
had said, that for the 19.4 two or three years there had been
scarcely soy imputation that was an assertion against the main
argument which had been used, for if they required the fo-
reigner to produce corn for this country, it was necessary to
encourage him, and the people of this country would then be
Y t
looked upon as customers; but if corn was only taken en now and
then, when immediate exigencies required it, our corn trade
would be looked upon with suspicion,
andy. we might b- at fault
when we most required a sup
el
lie
having tresipassed would apologise to
their Lordships for
so long, but he under..
stood that he interfered with .one, as it had been arranged
that there should be no division
that
the attention of the House to the effectesvoefnitnhge.
lielsieentwould proposed
Bill upon Ireland. He did not think that perfectfrreedomPoftrade
woald be prejudicial to Ireland. He would not tread upon the
unstable ground of fixing prices, for that would not be
warranted by the results of former predictions on the subject.
He believed that the effect of the measure would not be so
much to diminish the general average of prices as to diminish
the fluctuation in Ireland within a year, or from year to year.
That fluctuation was most prejudicial to Ireland, fur the greater
the amount of fluctuation the more it caused a greater e mount
of tendered rents. He was sorry to hear it stated that the dis.
tresses of Ireland had been spoken of with some degree of ridi-
cule ; but he wished to say, that, in his opinion, there had not
been one Peer who had spoken without the deepest feelings on

mind if there had been a perfect unanimity in every sense
amongst the clergy concerning this Bill ? Would there have
been two opir.ion3 in the mind of any man in the country that
the episcopal part of their Lordships' House at least had been
swayed, not by their own dispassionate and deliberate convic-
tion, but by a sense of the interests of a particular class ?
( Hear, hear.) He must say that he rejoiced that there was
not that unanimity, but he rejoiced that there was no unani-
mity at all upon this sutseef in that part of their Lordships'
House, because every impartial person must tee that they as a
body fodowed their ewe co viol ions, aid he might hs permitted
to allude to a very sintsu'ar fact in reseect to the division, that
two of their own body, who were united not only by their
office, but by their ties of love, went on opensite sides on the
division on this Bill.- -( Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke who
spoke last night stated to the House the result of his celcuia-
tions as to the effect which the measure would have upon the
interests of the clergy when it had been passed into a law, and
lie had calculated the matter so exactly that he discovered it
would produce precisely a diminution amounting to one-fourth.
Now, he did not pretend to be able to follow the Noble Duke in
these calculations, or to ascertain whether they were without
foundation or not, but he did conceive that the Noble Duke
must have clearly overlooked and put out of account anything
in the shape of a compensation which the clergy might receive
in order to make up this deficiency, in consequence of the effects
anticipated by the opponents of the measure. And, moreover,
he must be permitted to say, in reference to this, that whatever
might be the consequences arising to the interests of the clergy,
and to whatever degree those anticipations of Noble Lords
on the cross benches might he realised, still he thought the
bad effect which had resulted and must result to the
interests of the clergy would not principally be laid on this
measure, but resulted from one which was passed long before.
It was taking this measure in connexion with that for the
commutation of tithes that the interests of the clergy were
placed on a different footing from other classes interested in
land. But he said, although it was psssible that the clergy
might receive some loss, they certainly could not say that they
had sustained any injury from that measure, because it was
undoubtedly passed with the consent of those who represented
them in that place—and not only that, but it was ;sassed with
the full understanding that there was a possibility it would be
followed by the measure now under their Lordship? considera-
tion. He said that some of those that took part in the die-
cession on that measure distinctly and expressly adverted to the
possibility that at no distant period a repeal of the corn-laws
might take place. Now he only alluded to this circumstance
for one purpose, which was to show the uncertainty of calcula-
tions of this nature, for those who adverted to this possibility
in connexion with this subject did so, not because they con-
ceived that in the event of a repeal of the corn-laws the
interests of the clergy would be affected, but that that repeal
would operate as a grievance upon the owners of land.
The Duke of RICHMOND—Oh, oh.
The Bishop of St. DAVID'S—I do not know, proceeded
the Right Rev. Prelate, what the Noble Duke means by that
expression of dissent, but I venture to refer him to the best
accounts that can be had of the discussion which took place on
that occasion, and I beg to assure him that that circumstance
was adverted to for that purpose. However, he said, he
would not deal long with this part of the subject and if he had
referred to it, it was for the object he had already stated. He
was quite sure, however, that the clergy at all events did not
wish that this measure should be judged by any operation
which might happen, and if he were to meet with any of the
clergy after this discussion, and to say them " I think I have
deserved your approbation, because the measure was one likely
to promote the general interests of the country ; still because
I understood it was likely to operate injuriously to your in-
terests, i complied with the earnest exhortations which I re-
ceived from many of your best friends in the House of Lords to
vote against it." He was sure if he were guilty of such a
feeling of dishonesty, he should be far from earning the good-
will or the thanks of any of the clergy, neither should he de-
serve the good opinion of any man in the country. But he
had done with that part of the subject, and he could not say he
should not consent to pass this measure on any such paltry
and miserable grounds as on account of its effects on the parti-
cular interests of such a limited class as those with whom he
was connected. He was sure in supporting this measure he
was performing a public duty. He looked not to is effect on
any particular interest, but to its ir thence on the comforts and
condition of the great body of the people —( Hear, hear.)
The measure might be a great and fearful experiment, but it
was not a gratuitous and wanton one. With reg rd
to the interests of a few the measure might he a
perilous 4 xperiment, but with regard to the interest for which
Noble Lords professed each great sympathy, he must ssy it
was a question of life and death to the people of the country.
Moreover the measure had one advantage ; it held nut hope,
which was the great sweetener of adversity. But should they
resist the measure, and abide by the old system in operation.
he should like to know what prospect Noble Lords would hold
out of improving the condition of the people.—( Hear, hear. )
One thing which ought to claim their Lordships' attention was,
the reason why, if they rejected the measure, they would create
mistrust and discontent in the public mini? That was a
subject which ought to gain their consideration, and it was
perfectly worthy of their dignity. He did not look upon the
measure as replete with a great deal of advantage. Had it been
trumpeted forth by the Government, as it had been by the
Anti •Corn-law League, he would have looked upon it with great
mistrust, but his confidence in it was greatly increased by the
sobriety with which it was introduced to the House by the Mi-
nistry. It was stated by the Minister that one of the beneficial
effects of the measure would be to create a steadiness in the
markets. He could state to their Lordships that the poor
people were unable to take advantage of a moral or religioits
education from the low state of their physical condition. The
reason they often gave for not attending their church, er their
school, was, that they had not clethes to attend. And if this
measure gave them any facilities, if it bettered their condition,
it would be no conteniptiale boon ; and even if it could be
proved to him that the measure would not be fraught with the
benefits to which he alluded, still he would support it, as he did
not consider that they should lay themselves open to suspicion,
which would infallibly attach itself to their Lordships if they
rejected the measure. He did trust that if there was an in-
jury inflicted on any class by the measure, that it was not out of
the reach of the legislative wisdom of Parliament to deal with
that evil and remedy it; and in this belief he comforted him-
self that in giving his vote for the measure he was coin-
ciding with the opinions of those eminent men who had
given their attention to the subject.
The Bishop of EXETER said he did not agree with many
statements of the Right Rev. Prelate who had last addressed
the House, and he considered that the clergy were bound not
to look on in silence when the interests of the clergy were at
stake—interests which it was their especial and bounden duty
to protect. It was the custom of their Lordships, whenever
their interests were invaded, to call upon them to support them.
That had been the invariable practics of their Lordships, and
he thanked them for appealing to them upon the present ques-
tion. He considered that the measure would depreciate the
moral and physical condition of the people, and that it would
also lessen the property of the church. Was cheapness of pro-
vision the great point sought by the ministerial measure? He
considered that cheapness was not of such moment to labourers
as high wages.—( Hear hear.) To raise the wages of the
aericulturist or mechanist, the more you would better his con-
dition morally and physically ; and he considered that it was an
unanswerable proposition that the more they introduced foreign
manufactures the more they would interf re with and depreciate
the labour of the home manufacturer. His experience taught him
so, and he believed that the measure would not be attended
with any of the benefits which it was alleged would accompany
it; and, impressed with that opinion, he gave the measure his
opposition. And he would conjure their Lordships to give
their vote upon this subject as they would do ueon a judicial
case—that they would lay their hands upon their hearts, and
say, "Not content, upon ms' honour."—( Hear, hear. )
The Bishop of 'IT. DAVID'S explained.
The Earl of WARWICK and the Bishop of OXFORD
rose together,
And after a few observations from Lard Baeuotraec, Earl
STANHOPE, and the Duke of RICHMOND, as to who should be
heard firet,
The Earl of WARWICK was allowed to address the House.
butfohre tchoeubi
de best
oitn
ht epni
tHi
oen gs ai
nv e
btri
ierr,
gins Majesty's
forward
entertaening the opinion that no necessity whatever existed for
Government
this
such a change as it contemplated. He would ground his ob-
jections to at in the words of Lord Bacon, who said, " It is not
good to try exeeriments in states unless good grounds
exist for tee change." He denied there was any necessity
whatever for the present Bill. A great deal was said about
the agitation for it, but the agitation was greatly over-rated, and
was confined to one class,. It was the most blasphemous and
disgusting agitation that ever disgraced the land. The
Noble Earl then quoted the circulars of the Anti-Corn-law
League, and an address to the electors of the country, which
contained the most inflammatory and exciting remarks. For
his part, he would say " Not content" to the Bill in all its
future stages.
The Bishop of OXFORD said he would wish to explain the
reasons which influenced him to vote as he intended upon this
question. A Noble Lord had said that the House looked to
the Right Reverend Prelate on the bench he occupied for les-
sons in morality and religion ; but he did rot think that the
appeal of the Noble Mat quis who commenced this debrte was
at all calculated to promote the cause of eithor religion or mo
rality. He did not think that he and other Rev. Prelates sa

in that House merely for the purpose of benefiting the clergy,
but for the purpose .of the general benefit of the country.--
( Hear, bear.) It was not without the deepest conviction, and
the most painful redaction, that he voted as he had done upon
this qteltion, and should vote in the same way upon ail future
stage- of the Bill. He was aware that this Bill was a great
exiieriment ; and he would ask, what were all great legislative
measures but experiments ? And they had the authority of
Lord Bacon for saying that all such experiments were only to
be justified by the exigeeey of the occasion that called for
them. He would contend for it that all legislation was
only an interference with the operations of nature ;
and where it was so, or where it acted so inju-
riously it : should not be permitted to exist. He
had heard a cheer from a Noble Lord ; but be would ask him
did not this fact suggest itself to his mind, that in proportion
as the labourer he employed gave him value for the wages he
paid him, so did the labourer compete with the foreign
labourer, and keep him out of the market. The Noble Lord
might laugh ; but he (the Bishop of Oxford) would still con-
tinue to maintain this argument, even though the Noble Lord
should laugh to the highest pitch of coneatination.—
(Laughter. ) He had now heard the Noble Duke on the
cross benches speak upon the subject of the protection of
agriculture, and he argued that protection to agriculture would
not be the result of this measure.
The Duke of RICHMOND said that all his life he had been
devoted to the,protection of agriculture.
The Bishop of OXFORD said he might have misunderstood
the Noble Duke's principles ; but he regretted that the Noble
Duke bad not been so clear in his arguments as to have pre-
vented 'him from being misunderstood. But it had been
said that all those who supported this measure were giving way
to agitation and clamour, and to the claims of the League;
bu• he would ask, was the House of Lords to be deterred by
such a body as the League ? He haal a different opinion of
the august assembly he was now addressing.—(Hear, hear.)
He was aware that a great agitation had been got up in favour
of this Bill, but he would ask was that a reason why the clergy
should be deprived, not of any of their luxuries of life, but of
many of its necessaries ?—Hear, hear.) Had the clergy been
silent on a measure when they knew that the Bill for the union
of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor was an especial favourite
with many leading Members of the Government? Had the
knowledge of that fact hindered the expression of their
opinions? And, in this cane, why had they been silent? It
was because they could have no just ground for opposition to
this measure. They had refused to joined in clamour which
they might most ingeniously have swelled. They had set
tth
all classes of the community an example that theremoney, f
was something still more valuable than _or
it
and they would receive a greater reward
than the reward of their annual income.tffeTritore by
thiscould
be no doubt that the clergy .would o
measure, and no doubt they included
I
insthatt had
been which would be extended to et
been said that one of the effectso of this
proportion
ue
ofw would be
on
his farm in order to improve to
induce the farmer to outlay a larger
it, and enable them to compete
with
The Noble Earl who had spoken
(the Earl of Stanhope) had anticipated him
thein
re other evn
questioneio g the foreign grower.
-which he was about to ask. The Noble Earl
had,t with a simplicity of language which he would not attempt
to imitate, put the case of a man whose property was mort-
gaged to the deepest extent, and had asked, in a tone of sepul-
chral demand, " Where is the money to come from ?"
(Laughter.) It happened to him the other day to be inquiring
into the moral condition of a certain parish, and the answer given by the clergy was, that it was in a state of the lowest
moral degradation. He asked the reason why the principal
landowner did not interfere--not Only on the higher ground of