The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-04 00:00:00

TILE SUET, LONDON, iTIYESDAY EVENING, AUGUST 4, 1848.

t;st:itio the yeaziereate, he had scented him•
self foe the purpose of getting out of the service. Ile
did not mean to say that he aas a ;good soldier, on the
contrary, he believed himto be the very reverse. He
merely y brought the case forw. rd to show what a re an
would undergo in order to get out of the service. He
then rce'erred to the case of a private in the 60th Regi-
ment of Cavelry who had ateseepted to :hoot him-
self in going off sentry. These were not solitary
instances of the injurious effects of the present system.
Sir IL Hardinge had stated in evidence before the Com-
missioners on the subject of corporal punishment, that
soldiers often maimed themselves to obtain their dis-
charge. He had stated last year that the suicides in the
cavalry amounted to one in twenty of the whole number
of deaths. That statement had been made upon the
authority of Mr. Marshall, the inspector of hospitals,
and he did not think there was a better authority on
the subject. Ile had made application to the Secretary-
at-War fora return of the number of suicides committed
in the army ; but he had been informed that the return
could not be given, because the suicides were not kept
distinct from the accidents. He though, however,
=itch returns should be kept separate. He
thought that if such returns were made, it would be
shown that a greater number of suicides took place in
the army than among any equal number of men in a dif-
ferent position.
Colonel FOX—AII the suicides which took place did
not take place upon that account.
Captain LAYAIII) did not suppose that they were
all traceable to that cause, but he should be happy to be
shown to be incorrect in the present instance. A great
number of suicides did take place, and it was but fair to
"Peese that they arose from that cause, seeing the great
number of punishments and desertions which annually
took place. He believed that the Right Hon. Baronet
the Secretary-at-War himself would not like to be tied
down for life to one employment, or to be compelled
during that term to perform the irksome duties con-
nected with the army.—(Laughter.) He thought that if
any person had a right to enlist the Chancellor of the
Eschequer, he had a perfect right to do so—(Laughter)
—and believed he should do so before he had finished his
statement. He thought that no person should he en-
listed for more than ten years, after which period he
should receive a sum equal to half his pay ; and that
after a period of six months if he enlisted again in that
regiment, or into any other regiment, he should be al-
lowed to enlist :or eleven years, thus making a total of
twenty-one years' service. It was quite possible that a
soldier might be happy in one regiment while he was
perfectly miserable in another; he would not propose,
therefore, to confine the soldier entirely to one regiment.
As an instance of the difference of regiment he would
call the attention of the House to the 12th Lancers,
commanded by Colonel Stowell, in which regiment
there was not a man who had been flogged.—(Cheers.)
If, after their ten years had expired, they should enlist
again for eleven years, they should be entitled to their
proper retiring allowance of 10d. per day. He knew
that he should be informed of the difficulties in
case of any regiment being abroad, and any number of
men claiming their discharge at the same time; but re-
wards could be held out, and quite sufficient inducements
given to them to remain. They might be allowed to go
to India, where, from all the returns he had seen, most
soldiers who had been there volunteered to return. Ile
knew he should be told that they had limited service be-
fore. lie was aware of that; but it was altered by Lord
Hill in 1829. The present system was most unjust, for
after ten years' actual service, with two distinguishing
marks of good conduct, they required a man to pay more
for his discharge than he originally received for going to
them. After giving men 41. and a few shillings to come
to them, and after getting ten or twelve years' service
out of him, they required him to pay 51. How could they
e:peet men who bad any prospector work to go into the
army with the comfortable prospect of twenty-five years'
service, and then 6d. per day to retire upon ?
All reports on the subject agreed that the army was
made of the very worst materials, and it had been found
that the soldier was so placed as absolutely to induce
him to commit many acts which caused him to be igno-
miniously punished. He wished to call attention to the
immense amount of duty which had to be performed by
good men in the army. The good men had the trouble
of doing the duty of the refractory, and of punishing
them when in disgrace. If they knew what was right
and just they could not but admit that it was not right
for any Government to drive a harsh and cruel bargain
with these poor men.—(Hear, hear.) It was their duty
to encourage them, and to give them gold treatment to
induce them to enter and remain voluntarily in the
army. All the persons who had ever tired the expe-
riment of recruiting for a limited period agreed that it
was quite successful, and it was tried wi.h considerable
success during the American war. In the year 1806
Mr. Wyndham proposed enlistment for limited periods,
and wished that the 21 years should be divided into
three periods, at the end of each of which
the soldier should be entitled to receive his discharge ;
and after a series of the whole three periods that he
should be entitled to be discharged with a pension of Is.
per day for life. The measure proposed was carried in
1806, but was afterwards effectually annulled by an
alteration in the regulations of the army. Dr. Jackson
had also written upon the economy of the army, and he
was of opinion that enlistment for an unlimited period
was prejudicial to the soldier, and that the army would
be in a mush better state if soldiers were enlisted for a
limited period. Sir R. Wilson, in 1804, wrote upon the
subject, and he expressed his surprise that we should
continue to retain a system which had been discarded
by other nations as unpolluted. In Austria they en-
listed for eight years, in India for three, and various
periods in other countries —not one country but England
having unlimited enlistment in its army. The opinion
of Sir 11. Hardinge was in favour of allowing men to
purchase their discharge after a period of service, and
the plan, on being tried, was found to operate
most beneficially. He, however, objected to the
principle, for money was in that case allowed to be the
agent by which the soldier was to receive his liberty.
There were many and very great defects in their mili-
tary system, but he believed that they were on the point
of a great alteration. He would conclude by moving
that an humble address be presented to her Majesty,
praying that she will be graciously pleased to take into
her consideration, how far a reduction of the period
would tend to improve the recruiting system, diminish
desertion, and tend to the better protection of the service.
Mr. F. MAULE wished to say a few words upon this
very important question. His Hon. Friend had argued
the question as if the Government had prejudice or feel-
ing against the soldier. He had said that the late Go-
vernment had it in contemplation to make some serious
alteration on this subject, and it was a subject of the
most important nature. He (Mr. F. Maule) did not
wish to give any decided opinion on one side or the
other. His Hon. Friend had alluded to the number of
desertions which were shown to take place by the re-
turns, as being caused by the knowledge of being en-
listed for an unlimited period. He would ask the Hon.
Member at what period these desertions took place.
They took place the first or second year,
when the mind of the soldier was acted upon by a dislike
of the rough tasks he had to perform ; but they in a
short time almost invariably returned to their duty, and
gave themselves up to their former engagement. He
assured the Hon. and Gallant Member that from his ex-
perience, he should know that those concerned in the
management of the army did all in their power to make
the position of the soldier comfortable, and he (Mr. F.
Maule) did not see that the Hon. Member had any right
to assume that all the suicides which took place in the
army arose from the distaste fora permanent enlistment.
The enlistment certainly took place for an unlimited
period, but the army allowed a graduated scale, and not
a very unjustly graduated scale, of means of escape.
After ten years service, the price was 211. in the cavalry,
and 151. in the infantry, and that was without any dis-
tinguishing marks of good conduct. Any distinguishing
marks of good conduct, to the number of two or more,
would at the end of 21 years entitle the soldier to his
discharge free. In the cavalry, under the same circum-
stances, the price was only 51.
Captain LAYARD—He cannot claim his discharge.
Mr. F. MAULE—Much had been done by the late
Government for the benefit of the army. Schools had
been established for the children of soldiers, and libra-
ries had been established, in which there were 30,000 or
40,000 volumes. These and other measures had been
taken to confer on the soldier the advantages of a citizen,
and he denied that he ever ceased to be a citizen. With
respect to the proposition of his Noble and Gallant
Friend, as to the limitation of the service, it should be
remembered that there were 24,000 soldiers in the West
Indies, and 31,000 in the colonies, making a total of
54;00G who served but for 14 years. He thought,
therefore, in consideration of all these circumstances,
that the House would not entertain the proposition of
the Noble and Gallant Gentleman.—(Hear.)
Sir DE LACY EVANS—WhiIe agreeing fully in
what had been stated with respect to the beneficial
measures of Government towards the army, he could
not consider the proposition of the Gallen Gentleman
beset with such difficulties as was supposed. With re-
spect to the West Indies, according to the Mutiny Act,
the power vested in the Governors of the colonies ren-
dered any apprehensions on that head groundless. He
believed, moreover, that there was no disposition to
leave the English army. There was also an objection
to be urged againt the argument of the Hon. Gentle-
man who had last addressed the House, with respect to
the power in the commanding officer to allow a soldier
to return, for it would be attended with great difficulty.
He would, therefore, give his support to the motion.
Mr. B. OSBORNE was glad to hear the remarks
of the Secretary-at-War, not because he had urged any
valid objections to the propositions, but because it
showed that the subject was to be an open question.
When there was so much work about the abolition of
punishment by death, that very punishment was ren-
dered necessary by the system adopted in, the army.
—(Hear, hear.) In 1799 they were obliged to press
felons into their service. If they wanted a better article
they should pay more for it, and the evil complained of
was to be remedied by getting a better class of men to
enter their troops. He trusted, therefore, that those
who had the interests of the country at heart would
stand up in their places in the House, and vote for
the better payment of soldiers. The first who
brought forward this subject was the great Lord Ches-
terfield, who submitted a motion on this matter in 1741,
and in 1749 the subject was revived by Mr. Wyndham.
He was prepared to show from official documents that
the hardships of the soldiers' situation were not ex-
arerated. From an official document of Sir James
MrGreaor some years ago, it appeared that out of 680
men under his care, the deaths of nearly one in twenty
were caused by suicide. In a book, written by Dr.
Reid, it was remarked the present system naturally en-
duced that mental depression which caused suicide.
There were more lunatics from the army than from any
other class, and therefore the inference was very justly
drawn. A Youth of eighteen, seduced into the army in a
state of drunkenness, would become so disgusted when
sober at the term of servitude before him as to fall
into that state of mental depression which would lead to
suicide.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the proposition
of hid Gallant Friend was not only more humane, but

tiitt tit wait also more econemical. In 1890 there wore
2,110 suffered punishment for desertion. Now let them
luck at the expense of these desertions. find they would
be convinced of the truth of what he advanced. Unless
they brought public opinion to bear upon the Horse
Guards, they must not expect any salutary reforms in
the British army. He recollected when 1,900 lashes
was net an unusual punishment, and it was considered
a great relaxation of rigour when the number was re-
duced to 1,250. Some idea might be formed of the degree
to which this system had taken rout in the country, when
he stated that, in 1311, the proprietor of a newspaper
was mulcted in the sum of 2001. for a denunciation of
this ern: ley. He would conclude by calling upon the
Noble Lord to signalise his Government by echoing the
sentiments of Mr. Wyndham, and abolish this sangui-
nary system.
Captain LINDSAY thought if the normal schools
were carried out they would find that desertions and
crime would be considerably decreased in the army.
There was this feeling in the army, that they had
nothing to look forward to but a miserable pension at
the expiration of twenty-five years, and so long as that
state of things prevailed they could not expect any
change in the present condition of the army. Among a
number of instances, lie could state that in his own bat-
talion a number of the men made their greatest com-
plaint the length of service. He thought that if educa-
tion and religion were more diffused among the army
the result would exceed their expectations, and the evils
which followed the present system would be put au
end to.
Mr. HUME said that the limitation of the service
was a subject which he had long advocated. By that
means good men would be secured, and desertion would
be lessened. If the report made by the general officers
on the subject was read Hon. Members would see that
those who must have the greatest regard to the efficiency
of military discipline were advocates of a limited service.
His own opinion of mankind was, that if they had their
compacts attended to, and were treated kindly, they
would not be disposed to indulge in crime. He entirely
supported the motion of his Hon. Friend, for the amount
of crime which resulted from the present treatment of the
military was a discredit to the nation. lie recollected
when 1000 lashes was a common punishment, and he con-
sidered that the adoption of milder treatment had been
attended with the most beneficial results. With regard
to normal schools, he thought they should not be con-
fined to the army, but extended to the whole country.
Mr. BERNAL hoped that his Honourable Friend
would not press his motion to a division. Ile thought
the Government should have time to investigate the
subject. This was only one part of a general system,
and be was of opinion that, as the whole subject of
military discipline was pressed upon the Government
by the country, time should be allowed them to
frame a measure to meet the evils. All the criminal re-
' forms which were made were only brought about by
long deliberation. Forty years ago he believed a man
was hung only for cutting down a cherry-tree. The
criminal law had since undergone great ainelioration.With
regard to military discipline, he thought that the same
caution should be observed, and nothing attempted with-
out careful deliberation. With regard to the question
of economy, he thought if they wished to improve the
condition of the army, some expense would be found to
be absolutely necessary.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought the matters which had
been brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Bernal) were of national importance, and hoped they
would be considered by the Government. It was true
that the Government had been but a short time in office ;
however, he expected great change would be made be-
fore next session. He thought seven years, as a period
of enlistment, was long enough ; and after that time was
out he believed the men might be induced to enlist for
the next eleven years by a bounty. All the changes
had been advocated on the ground of increased pay.
Now, in looking to the expenses of the army, he found
that a cavalry soldier received Bs. 9d. a week, a soldier
in the guards Bs. 2d., and in the line 7s. 7d.• this amount
of wages was aided by several perquisites and allowances.
In looking into the extracts, he found 35,000/. as a re-
ward for good service, and 3,0001. in lieu of beer, to
the troops at home. Much might be done for the army
by internal improvements, for far too much power was
allowed to the non-commissioned officers, and much lay
in tho power of the superior officers, if they would
exert them selves for the good of the men.
Colonel J. WOOD said, for the non-commissioned
officers, that no class in the army exercised their au-
thority with more forbearance. They staid in the same
room, and slept in the same room ; and it was necessary
to take care that their authority should not be infringed
upon. They had no power to inflict punishment. Very
differently were they situated in the French army, where
the corporal and the sergeant each had the power of
sentencing to imprisonment; a sentence which could not
be commuted without reference to the colonel of the
regiment. As for the changes proposed in the period of
enlistment, he had hopes that it
.might produce great
advantages.
Colonel SMTHORP said, that knowing the army and
considering its history, he thought little or no change
was necessary. Reform was a word which, he must say,
he did not like—(Laughter)—and he said again that
little or nothing was necessary for effecting any desired
improvement. The House ought to recollect that offi-
cers, though officers, were yet men; they had their
failings, no doubt, but order and discipline was required
in a bony of men like the army. He begged, then, that
the House would leave the subject in the hands of one
so able to deal with it as the Noble Duke at the head of
that department. He begged they would leave to offi-
cers in the army, the am my, and to naval officers the
navy, jnst•as they had their Lord Chancellor, whom
they referred to as an authority in law. The army was
doing well, and it ought to be let alone ; the state of
which was such as to astonish the foreigners who came
into the country.
Mr. H. C URTEIS said he regretted exceedingly on
finding that he had come to town in vain that evening,
when the Learned Doctor below him (Dr. Bowring)
put off his motion, which it was certainly his intention
to have supported. He had for twenty years advo-
cated the abolition of flogging in the army, and he was
glad to see others coming over to the same i pinion. He
would support the motion of the Gallant Captain, and he
must tell that Gallant Gentleman that when he (Mr.
Curteis) was at the Horse Guards, he should allow him
to remain no longer a captain ; he would make him a
colonel.—(Loud laughter.) He would not begrudge
any expense which could contribute to the ad-
vantage, and the improved condition of the army.
It would give great satisfaction to the country to learn
the way in which the question had that night been taken
up by military men ; and he hoped the Government
would take the matter into its most serious consideration.
After a few remarks from Captain LAYARD, the
motion was withdrawn.
INQUEST AT HOUNSLOW.
Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to make a few remarks in
refererce to certain proceedings going on elsewhere,
while he intimated the postponement of the motion.
The matter to which he referred was the proceedings at
Hounslow. Several writers in the newspaper press had
attacked the gallant colonel of the regiment for the
flogging of the man on whom the coroner's inquest is at
present sitting. Now he (Mr. Osborne) begged leave to
say that that gallant officer had no more to do with the
death of that man than the humble individual who now
addressed them. Nay, so virulent was the feeling
against Colonel Whyte, that some tapers had advocated
his murder by the troops under his command. The Hon.
Gentleman, the Member for Coventry, had to-night
made use of these newspaper reports, and had referred
to the evidence of a witness who had been examined,
but who was a very disreputable character, and had been
guilty several times of gross insubordination, which
ended in his being flogged ; not for crying out " Halloa
Sergeant," as ho had asserted.—(Hear, hear) Colonel
Whyte was a most excellent soldier, the son of a country
gentleman, and he felt extremely hurt and annoyed
at the manner in which he had been assailed
There was not a day but what he was receiving anony-
mous and threatening letters on the question. In stating
that he would not press his motion at present, he could
not avoid offering this defence of a gallant and much
misrepresented officer.
Colonel PEEL felt thankful to the Hon. Member for
the vindication he had made of Colonel Whyte. lie
had read over every atom of the evidence taken before
the court-martial, and he felt justified in defending him
from the aspersions cast upon him. Ile (Colonel Peel)
believed him to be one of the best officers in the. army.
With regard to the private's evidence, which had
been referred to, that of Matthewson ; he was one of the
worst conducted men in the whole regiment, and ha d
previous to the occasion on which he received punish-
ment, been forgiven for one or two gross instances of
misconduct and insubordination. (The Hon. and Gal-
lant Gentleman read a short statement to this effect.)
Mr. FOX MAITLE suggested that until the result of
the coroner's inquest was known, it was rather prema-
ture to enter into a discussion of the question.
Mr. WILLIAMS was surprised at the manner in
which he had been attacked. Ile had only stated to the
House what the man had stated when examined' on
the coroner's inquest, which he believed had been faith-
fully reported. If what the witness had stated was un-
true, why did not the officers contradict it at the time?
I lad they any explanations to make, that was the time
for them to do it ; and they would have been published
along with the man's evidence. What had then taken
place showed the necessity of a complete reform in the
whole system.
Mr. MONTAGUE GORE felt that Colonel Whyte
had been most unjustifiably attacked. If there
was any fault, it was not attributable to Colonel
Whyte, but to the system under which he
acted. That gallant officer could not have acted in any
either way than he had done. The system might be
wrong, but Colonel Whyte was not to he blamed in giv-
ing it effAtt while he was acting under it.
Mr. P. HOWARD was glad that steps were in pro-
gress to effect a diminution of corporal punishment, as
he believed it would be the means of considerably im-
proving the character of the army. He thought, in
regard to corporal punishments, the soldier should not
be placed in a worse position than the felon. He was
glad that the explanation had been made in exculpation
of the character for undue severity preferred against
Colonel Whyte.
The subject then dropped.
THE CARNIVAL AT MALTA.
Mr. HUME was sorry to detain Mr. Speaker a
short time longer in the chair, but he had a
motion of some importance which he wished to
submit to the House. It was as follows :
"That, in the opinion of this House, and according to
the correspondence laid before it, relative to the pro-
ceedings in the island of Malta during the Carnival
holidays in February last, the conduct of the governor
and of the magistrates acting under his orders, in the
interference with the long-existing usages of the inhabi-
tants of that island, amount to an infraction of the rights
and privileges guaranteed to the Maltese by the capitu-
lation under which they originally became British sub-
jects, and are also contrary to the principles of civil and
, religious liberty." In the present case, the Governor of
' the island had, in a most unjustifiable manner,

interfered with a ceremony, which for forty-five
years had been carried . on for flour days without
any breach of decorum or any objectionable
proceeding. The interference would seem to have been
undertaken from a pro,elytising motive, and ilBil given
great offence to the professors of the Roman Catholic
religion. When the Governor, in February fast, and on
the first Sunday of the Carnival, ordered its suepression,
he voted in a most improper and unjustifiable manner,
and he (Mr. Hume) should like to have some explana-
tion cf the affair. It was true that a number of persons
dressed as clergymen did parade the streets with a
wooden bible in their hands, and they did so, he believed,
with the view of showing their detestation of the manner
in 'which their ceremonies bad been interfered with.—
(Efear, hear.) The prayer of the memorial, which he
held in his hand, complained that the interference was
a breach of their privileges, and he for one thought the
public of Malta had a right to keep up an usage which
was justified, or he might say had been 'legalised by
immemorial custom.—(Hear, hear.) The report of the
Governor upon the subject, he had learned from good
authority in Malta, was erroneous, nay, in many respects
untrue'; and Government ought to be rejoiced to have
that-opportunity of' explaining the document, and clear-
ing- up the character of the Governor. It must he re-
membered that the place had always preferred English
to French government, and this act of the Governor, in
his opinion, evinced a strange and extraordinary want of
discretion.—(clear, hear.) The Governor represented
that only seventy or eighty persons were arrested, but
he had pretty good information, showing that the num-
ber was more likely to be 170, and upon this ground
alone he thought he had a right to call for it. No true
friend of civil and religious liberty could justify such con-
duct as this, and in justice to the public of Malta, who had
always shown a disposition favourable to England, they
ought to have this matter inquired into.—(Hear, hear.)
He did not attribute any intentional injury committed
on the part of the Governor. No doubt the Governor
thought he was acting conscientiouly, and for the best,
but still he had exhibited a sad want of discretion in
having 170 persons arrested on one day to be discharged
for want of charges on the following morning, and Go-
vernment would not be doing its duty to the colony of
Malta unless they protected the population against a
repetition of such conduct. (Hear, hear.) He could
not conclude without expressing his regret at the let-
ter which Lord Grey had written upon the
subject, and he thought this was another reason why
the House should agree to his resolution, to show the
governors of English colonies that they were not to in-
terfere with the rights, privileges, and liberty of her Ma-
jesty's subjects, who might happen to reside within their
jurisdiction. The Emperor of China had issued a notice, ;
that within his dominions. Catholics, and in fact every
class of religionists, should be allowed freely to have
their processions and ceremonies, without being molested
or interfered with in any way.—(Hear, hear.) Here
was an example then set them by those whom they had
considered barbarians.—(Hear, hear.)
Dr. BOWRING, in seconding the motion, said he
thought his Hon. Friend had brought the subject before
the House with a good deal of temper and forbearance.
lie reminded the House that although there was much
loyalty in Malta, there was a strong undercurrent of
discontent, for the people had often memorialised
to have their grievances redressed, but their
prayers had never been attended to.—(Hear, hear.)
The Catholic, dignitaries were not consulted, and there
could be no doubt that the conduct of the Governor was
unjustifiable. A few days previous to the holding of
the Carnival,f. he issued a manuscript order to the effect
that the Carnival was not to be tolerated. The Governor
had no right to do this, norhad he anyright to abolish the
law of centuries in the course of a few hours. The com-
plaints of the Maltese were well founded, and he thought
that the House should by their vote assure that people
that they would not tolerate such conduct on the part of
the Governor.—(Hear, hear.) That people had always
acted faithful towards England, and they had a right to
be protected.—(Hear, hear.) He had the greatest sa-
tisfaction in seconding the motion of his Honourable
Friend.
The SPEAKER having put the question,
Mr. HAVES rose and said, his Hon. Friend the
Member for Montrose, had said that he would confine
himself to the facts of the case ; and he (Mr. Hawes)
should pursue a similar course, and after having done so,
he thought that the House would agree with him. that a
case had not been made out for the interference of the
House. He begged to assure the House that
the Carnival was celebrated at Malta, not
according to the law of that island, but by the permis-
sion of the Governor.—(Hear, hear.) Both Catholics
and Protestants had petitioned the Governor to put an
end to these festivals, and that individual accordingly
issued the order complained of. lie held in his hand a
letter from the Governor, in reference to the complaints.
(The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the letter, in
r which the Governor stated that the festival had been

interrupted in accordance with the express desire of the
Catholic Vicar-General and clergy, and the Protestant
clergy also.) The matter was altogether of a religious
character. The order of the Governor had certainly
caused some opposition on the part of a few of the
people, but they were not composed of the respectable
classes of the island. The parties who had been com-
mitted summoned the police, but the case was dismissed;
and here the charge is fully confuted that the whole
fault lay with the Governor, for the case is brought
before the ordinary civil magistrates, who dismissed the
case.
Mr. HUME—They may not have decided fairly.
They may have been influenced.
Mr. HAWES—IIIs Hon. Friend could not fairly
raise that question, but no such charge had been made,
and he considerel that the case did not present the
slightest colour of a charge of an attempt to meddle with
the civil and religious liberties of the Maltese. When
his Hon. Friend said that Malta was a colony, he must
excuse him for drawing a great and broad distinction
between it and such a colony as Canada. It was a great
military position, and, therefore, with a population of
100,000, it was not entitled to be treatel like a colony
such as Canada, for such a constitution would not be
adapted for Malta.
Mr. VERNON SMITH said that there was no doubt
that the case was much altered, but be considered that
they were much indebted to the Right [lon. Gentleman
for bringing the matter under the notice of the House.
for it was most necessary that there should not be the
slightest ground for suspicion that there could be even
an attempt made to meddle with the civil or religious
liberty of the people of Malta. He considered that the
Governor-General had acted unwisely in not mention-
ing to the people that he acted in accordance with the
that there had been an arbitrary
advice ovfe ntchoeAsitre
ricehbdishp—(Hear, hear)—for the people
act on the part of the Government. He was delighted
that the question had been brought forward, as the dis-
cussion would not be without its use.
Mr. EWART considered that the Governor had acted
incautiously; he had not taken care to inform the people
on what grounds he had taken the measure com-
plained of. Had he done so no complaint would have
arisen. He thought that the island of Malta should have
a system of representation ; if such were established, he
believed the people would be more loyal and faithful to
the interests of the British crown.
Sir DE LACY EVANS wished to know whether
there was any disturbance resulting from this carnival
that induced the Governor to interfere.
Mr. II :INES stated that great disturbances had
arisen, and many complaints had been made upon the
subject prior to the interference of the Governor.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that the explanation of
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Colonies
had given a different tone to the subject.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK said that, with reference to
the dispatch of Mr. Gladstone, he must say, " dark with
excessive light the lines appear ;" and he would defy
any person to read it so as to understand it. The House
seemed quite in the dark upon the subject, and were
confounding the carnival with the masque; and the con-
duct of the Governor was perfectly inexplicable.
Mr. B. ESCOTT said that he was at a loss to know
whether it was the wish of the Government that the
House should condemn or approve the conduct of the
Governor. He thought there had been a gross invasion
of the civil and religious liberties of the people of Malta
by the Governor. He repeated that both civil and re-
ligious liberty had been violated by the acts of this Go-
vernor. The people of Malta met together in accord-
ance with the custom of the country, and although they
had committed no breach of the public peace, they were
arrested and imprisoned for doing so.—(Hear, hear.)
It this was not an infringement of civil and religious
liberty, it appeared to him to be something very
like it.
Colonel FOX confessed that he did not think putting
down a masque on a Sunday was an infringement of the
civil or religious liberty.
Mr. HUME having declared his determination to
divide,
Mr. P. HOWARD said,as the Hon. Member for
Montrose intended to go to a division, he must take the
liberty of saying a few words upon the subject. It was
Blear that this Carnival, besides being innocent in its
nature, was sanctioned by. long time and immemorial
usage, and the Governor, in his opinion, ought to have
paused before he took the proceedings he did.—(Hear,
hear.) He did not, however., think any good would
follow a division, and he therefore suggested to his Hon.
Friend the Member for Montrose, who had always been,
and he trusted would continue still to be, the champion of
Mr. FOX MAUIE agreed with the Hon. Gentleman
that he could not see what good could really follow a
cvila
ontdiorne.ligious liberty, the propriety of withdrawing
thei m
division. It would be a censure upon the Governor,
and before the House went so far, he begged the House
to remember that the Carnival, before it could be
celebrated, required the sanction of the Governor.
—(Hear, hear.) Now, on this particular occasion, the
consent of the Governor bad not been obtained, and the
object of the people it was tolerably clear was to try and
do away with the governors jurisdiction or power over
it altogether.—(hear, hear.) The governor having
f
stora which all wise people repudiated,
refused
e dit to to be
allow a
continue; a custom not in existence
roufciut
to
at Rome, and followed only at Malta. The House
would find, he was sure, that the Roman Catholic po-
pulation went with him.
Mr. C. BERKELEY hoped the Hon. Member would
F
press his motion to a division. He found fault, not
with the governor putting down the custom, but with
the manner of his doing so.rom what he knew of the
inclined to s
oArliCtiAltßa, aspect there was
T HY
he was u
con
somethingloir more than appeared to the House ; he knew
these was an indirect interference with the religion of
the people of the country. There was a college in
Malta into which the rector wished to introduce a teacher
of the Italian language, and considered the person best
fitted for this purpose would be a Roman ; but the
Italian language in that
Governor positively
to teach
the t al
allow any other than a
Britishsubject
college.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the remark made by the last speaker introduced a very
different question from that before the House. But he
a

must inform the Hon. Gentleman that it was a part of
the foundation of that college that none but British sub-
jects could hold official rituAio'us in it. This was his
answer to what had fallen froM the Hon. Member on
t!-.at subject. Again, lie was amazed that Hon. Gentle-
men should stand up is the House -and vend suspicions
cf there being an interference with the Homan Catholic
religion, when all that was done would have met with
the • approbation of all the Catholic clergy them-
selves. The fact was, as it. had been stated,
the people ought to have got the sanction of the
Governor before masquing during the carnival:
but that sanction had not been obtained, and
some the lowest of the people masqued notwithstand-
ing, the consequence of which was, the interference
that nad taken place. He said he had risen merely to
disabuse the minds of Members on the subject.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
house divided, when there appeared—
Against the motion 5O
For it

Majority against the motion... —3B
Upon our re-admission into the gallery, we found
ARMY AND NAVY ESTIMATITS.

Mr. WILLIAMS on his legs, addressing the House
on the subject of the increase in the army and navy es-
timates. In the year 1835, the estimate for the army
end navy was 11,657,0001., while for the present year
the estimate was 16,840,000/., being an increme of
5,182,000/., or a sum equal to the whole amount of the
income-tax. The amount of men for the army and navy
was as follows :

1835 1845 Increase.
Army 108,743 . . 150,284 ... 41,541
NAvy
Pensioners embudied

Making a total increase of . 65,041
IL, really did not know what necessity there was for
this large increase in the pesent year, when there was
peac' throughout the world, with the exception of
Caifraria. Again, if I,e added to this number the
numbers of the militia, the half-pay, and the various
bodies of police, there was an available force of 274,000
men to be supported by this country. He would call
the attention of the House to the horse and foot
guards. There was a total amount of 6,568 men, the
exFenso of which was equal to 12,000 infantry. There
were 9G officers, and 150 non-commissioned officers, con-
nepted with this body; being in the proportion of one
officer to ten men, and one non-cornmisioned officer to
every four men in the Ist Light Dragoons. In
the foot guards, and in the regiments of the line,
there was nothing like this enormous disproportion.
He did not know why this body, who had not seen
service, should be able to look down upon those veteran
officers who had seen all kinds of service. He hoped
Government would inquire into the subject ; he was
certain it was a matter seriously felt by the other officers
of the army. He had brought the matter before the
late Goverment, but he knew it was perfectly useless to
bring before them any subject with reference to the cur-
tailment of expenditure. They had, during three years
and a half of their administration created 600 places,
end bestowed upon these placemen 24,5001. per annum,
He would also call the attention of the House to the
enormous sum of 3,414,000/. for half-pay and pensions

for the army.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the Government would not, he could assure the I
Hon. Member, propose any vote which they were not
prepared to defend upon the strictest ground of economy.
Mr. GOULBURN justified the conduct of the late
Government in the course they had pursued in the ap-
pointment of additional officers in the Post-office, in the
Bankruptcy, and other courts. He was quite prepared
to go into the question of those appointments with the
Hon. Member upon any occasion that he might think fit.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The House then formed itself into a Committee of
Supply.
A vote of 772,889/. for the united service of England
and Ireland was agreed to; as were also
A vote of 169,435/. for the staff officers.
A vote of 14,062/. for the expense of the Royal Military
Asylum.
The following sums were voted, as portions of the
army estimates :-36,501/. ; 12,000/. ; 49,000/. ;
46,000/. ; 26.0001. ; 38,0001. ; 4,200/. ; 82,000/. ; 34,6501. ;
191,350/. ; 30,000/. ; 500,0001. ; 94,439/. ; and 82,3751.
The Chairman was then ordered to report progress.
The House having resumed, the CHAIRMAN reported
accordingly, and the report was ordered to be brought
up to-day.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (4,000,0001.) BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
JOINT STOCK BANKS BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
SPIRIT LICENSE AND DUTIES BILL.
The report on this Bill was brought up and agreed to,
and the Bill ordered to be engrossed.
RATEABLE PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL. -
This Bill went through Committee pro forma, for the
purpose of having amendments introduced into the Bill.
Ejectments (Ireland) Bill. Leases (Ireland) Bill, and
Rateable Property (Ireland) Bill were postponed till
Wednesday.
FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Captain JONES objected going into Committee at
that hour of the night.
The Bill was postponed till Wednesday.
The District Lunatic Asylums Bill was postponed.
BATHS AND WASIIIIOUSES (IRELAND) BILL.
On bringing up the report of this Bill,
Mr. GItOGAN moved the omission of clause 4, and
the insertion of the following clauses:—And be it en-
nacted, that the expenses of carrying this Act into exe-
cution in any such borough, or such city or town in
which the Council or Town Commissioners respectively
shall have resolved to adopt this Act for their borough,
or city, or town respectively, shall he chargeable upon,
and paid out of the funds to be raised under, the au-
thority of this Act ; and for that purpose the Council or
I owls Commissioners may cause a separate rate, not
exceeding in the whole, at any one time, the sum of one
penny per pound sterling upon the rateable property of
such borough, city, or town, to be Imi:el, paid, and re •
covered in like manner, and with the like powers and
remedies in all respects as the borough-rate or town•rate,
to be applied in payment of the expenses of carrying this
Act into execution, as if such expenses were necessarily
incurred in carrying into effect the provisions of the
Act of the third and fourth years of the reign of her pre-
sent Majesty, or the said Act of the ninth year of his
Majesty King George the Fourth, or of such local or
other Act or Acts as aforesaid, as the case may be; and
the income arising from the baths and washhouses and
open bathing places in any borough, or city, or town,
shall be paid to the credit of the separate account of such
baths or washhouses. And be it enacted, that when

the Town Council of any such borough as
aforesaid, or the Town Commissioners for any
such city or town as aforesaid, shall have
adopted this Act for their borough, city, or town,
respectively, they shall cause their treasurer, or, where
there shall be no treasurer, such person as they shall
appoint, to keep a true and regular account of all sums
of money expended by them in the purchase of any
land or buildings for the purpose of erecting baths or
washhouses thereon, or in the purchase of any baths
now erected, and of all sums of money borrowed by
them under the powers of this Act, and of all ex-
penses incurred by them for or on account of the pur-
poses of this Act : and the said account shall be
examined and audited in like manner and et the same
time as all other accounts of receipts and payments of
such borough, city, or town, respectively, are ex-
amined and audited : and the said Council or Town
Commissioners shall, before the first day of February in
each year, transmit to the Lord Lieutenant or other
Chief Governor or Governors of Ireland for the time
being, a true and correct copy of such account : and
the said Council or Town Commissioners shall also
cause a copy of such account to be deposited in the office
of the Town Clerk, or of such person as they shall ap-
point to execute the duties of Town Clerk, within one
month after the same shill have been audited, and the said
account shall be open to the inspection of all inhabitants
of such borough, city, or town, and copies thereof shall
be delivered to all inhabitants of such borough, city or
town, applying for the same, upon payment of one shil-
ling for each copy.
COURT OF COMMON PLEAS BILL.
This Bill went through Committee, and the several
clauses were agreed to.
The House resumed.
The Copyhold Commission Bill, Turnpike Act Con-
tinuance Bill, Stock in Trade Bill, Highway Rates Bill,
and Loan Societies Bill, were read a second time, and
ordered to be committed this day.
MILITARY FLOGGING.

Mr. ESCOTT moved for a return of persons flogged
in the army in Great Britain and Ireland, in the years
1845 and 184 G to the end of July ; specifying :-1. The
offence. 2. The regiment, the place of station, the time.
3. The sentence. 4. The order for execution. 5.
Whether the trials were open to the public, or only
open to the regiment, or with closed doors. 6. The
number of lashes inflicted, and the day. 7. How soon
after punishment the man was able to return to his duty,
and at what place he was then quartered. 8. Whether
death has followed within twelve months of the flogging,
and the date of such death. 9. Whether the punishment
was inflicted, if in cavalry regiments, by the trumpeter
or farriers ; if in infantry regiments, by the privates or
drummers, and with what instrument. 10. Copies of
the surgeon's minutes of all such punishments, and any
subsequent observations on their consequences.
Mr. FOX MAULE objected to the returns.
Mr. ESCOTT consented to postpone his motion till
Thursday next.
NAVAL MEDICAL SUPPLEMENTAL FUND
SOCIETY.
Mr. WARD obtained leave to bring in a Bill relating
to the Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society.
The Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be
read a second timA this day.
LUNATIC ASYLUMS.
Sir G. GREY obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the law concerning Lunatic Asylums, and the
care of Pauper Lunatics, in England.
TRIGONOMETRICAL SURVEY.
Sir D. NORREYS moved for a Select Committee on
the progress of the Trigonometrical Survey of Ireland.
Motion agreed to.
ELECTIONS IN THE CITY OF CHESTER.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL obtained leave to
bring in a Bill regulating Elections in the City of
Chester.
The Bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be
read a second time this day.
NEW WRIT.

On the motion of Mr. TUFNELL, a new writ was
ordered for the borough of St. Alban's, in the room of
the Earl of Listowel, who, since his election, had
accepted the office of one of the Lords in Waiting to
her Majesty.

SUGAR DUTIES BILL.
The report of the resolutions was brought up, and the
Bill was read a first time.
The House then adjourned at Half-past One.