The Sun.
London, England, 1848-02-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 26, 1846.

respect to the colonies, however, when the Noble Lord
said that protection was necessary to the colonies, he
would take leave to observe that on that point the Noble
Lord was entirely at issue with the colonists themselves.
When the Noble Lord also said that the Government
had changed their views upon this subject, he must beg
to say that he thought he had brought forward that
charge without sufficient evidence. Lord Clarendon had
merely informed the deputations to which the Noble
Lord alluded, that it was not intended to propose a
change to Parliament during the last seon. his pledge
did not in any way affect the course to be taken at a fu-
ture period. Then the Noble Lord had referred to
certain correspondence published in America. Now, if
that correspondence was rightly read, it would
resolve itself into a general expression to the
American Minister, to the effect that the
Government believed a mutual arrangement with
regard to shipping would be of benefit to
both countries. That was not a statement which ought
to subject them to the Noble Lord's censure. But then
the Noble Lord complained of the mode in which a Com-
mittee appointed in the other House upon this subject
had been selected, and the way in which their inquiries
had been conducted. Now he must say that he did not
think it a convenient course to discuss in that II( use
how the House of Commons conducted an inquiry. For
his own part, he must say that he believed the inquiry
in the Commons had been conducted with strict justice,
and with the most scrupulous care.—(oh.) It always
happened on inquiries of such a sort, that more witnesses
were examined upon one side than upon the other, and
nothing could be fairer than the whole arrangements
respecting the examinations in the case to which he
alluded. Another point on which he must say a word,
was the charge made against Mr. Porter, whom the
Noble Lord had declared to have made a statement
which he said to be " false."—(Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") Now what did that charge of falsehood resolve
itself into? Nothing else than an erroneous deduction.
Mr. Porter's figures were all correct; but he took a view
of them in which the Noble Lord did not agree. Ile
had oaly to add that he was perfectly willing the Com-
mittee should be appointed, and that he was very sanguine
indeed in his anticipations that the result would be to
afford strong evidence in favour of the measure proposed
hereafter to be submitted.

The Earl of ELLENBORI)UGII expresszd his gra-
tification that her Majesty's Government did not object
to the Committee. When the Noble Lord, however,
said that the present law had been very injurious to the
mercantile navy of the country, ho was led to infer the
measure the Government would propose would be cal-
culated greatly to improve that law. If such were the
case, he trusted the House would considar no Bill that
had not for its object greatly to increase the trade and
the importance of our mercantile marine.—(Hear.) lie
should come to its consideration with that principle
firmly fixed in his mind, and determined to give his sup-
port to no other measure whatsoever. With respect to
the colonists he was not surprised that those who looked
merely to the cheapening the carrying trade of the
country were disposed to support an alteration of
the navigation-laws ; but shipowners had to look at
the matter in a different point of view, and it was
their view that he should be most desirous to consult.
The Noble Lord who brought forward this motion had
referred to returns relating to tho amount of tonnage of
different nations. Those returns ho (Lord Ellenborough)
thought exceedingly fallacious, and he thought it would
be necessary to have very diff !rent returns upon this
head. There was also some revision required in the
present state of our liw with reference to apprentices.
He thought the state of our law at present was calcu-
lated to throw a large number of able-bodied seamen out
of employ, by enforcing the employment of too great a
number of apprentices. He should be much surprised
if inquiries upon these points did not prove that twos
ninths of the seamen on whom we at present relied were
only apprentices, and a large number of those under 20
years of age. This might be one cause of so large a num-
ber of cur seamen being at present in the American marine.
If the return was correct which gave 112,000 as the
number of sailors in American employ, it was shown
that of those 112,000 no less than 100,000 were fo•
reigners.—(Hear, hear.) How many of these were
British subjects he could not tell, but of course a very
great proportion, and this was a most formidable con.
sideration. In conclusion, he impressed on their Lord-
ships the great importance of sustaining our mercantile
marine, and said that he felt strongly that should a war
ever again break out with this country it would be
necessary to resort again to impressment. He had
read a number of crotchetty pamphlets urging a regis-
tration of seamen as an efficient measure for manning
the navy; but when he recollected that we should want
in our fleet one half the entire number of our merchant
seamen, he felt sure that nothing but the impressment
of seamen would avail. It must be remembered, more-
over, that our system of warfare, in consequence of the
adoption of steam, was now altered; and that whilst
we carried our attacks into the ports of the enemy, we
must also have a sufficient force to protect ourselves at
home from similar attacks.

The motion was then agreed to.
Their Lordships adjourned at twenty minutes past
Seven.

DOUSE OF COMMONS. Feb.2s.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
IIIE DUBLIN CORPORATION PARLIA-
MENTARY FUND.

The order for the second reading of this Bill was
discharged.
LOUGH CORRIB IMPROVEMENT
COMPANY.

This Bill was also read a second time and passed.

LAMBETH WATER-WORKS.

Jr. PEARSON presented two petitions in favour
and one against the Lambath Water-works Bill.
Alderman HUMPIIERY presented a petition also
in favour of the Bill.

Sir W. MOLESIVORTII presented a petition in
favour of the Bill.
LANCASTER ELECTION COMMITTEE.
Mr. DEEDES, as Chairman of the Lancaster
Election Committee, reported that Mr. James Dodson
had answered satisfactorily all the questions put to
him, and he therefore moved that he be discharged
out of tho custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms without
payment of fees.
Motion agreed to.
NATIONAL DEFENCES.

Petitions against any increase of the war establish-
ments of the country were presented by Mr. Redhead
Yorke, from York ; by Mr. Evelyn Denison, from
Melton; by Mr. Richard Cobden, from Bromsgrove ;
and by Mr. G. Thompson.
JEWISH DISABILITIES.

Petitions against the admission of the Jews into
Parliament were presented by Lord G. Manners,
from Cambridge; by Mr. Spooner, and by Major
Beresford.

the table of the House an account of
the expenditure of the said loan ; also,
whether the 420,0001. of the China money de-
tained at the Cape, might be taken as a deduction
from the 1,100,0001. expended in carrying on the
Kafir war.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
stated that the whole amount received as the produce
of the loan, had been carried to the Consolidated
Fund. Last year he stated that the advances
to Ireland had been about 10,000,0001. Up
to the present time he found that a sum
of about 9,000,0001. had been advanced in the way
of loan or grant to Ireland. A balance of 1,000,0001.
was, therefore, available for other Irish purposes.
With respect to the la ter part of the question he
found that the advances from the Commissariat chest
had been so heavy that he had not as yet been
able to draw anything from it. If the vote hG
should propose to-night would be granted he
would then be able to draw on the Commissariat for
the amount of the China money, which could be made
available for the purposes of this year.
LOANS (IRELAND).
In answer to a question put by Col. CONOLLY,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
stated that the amount of loans made to Ireland was
4,450,0001., and that the grants amounted to
4,270,000/. _ _

In answer to a question put by Mr. E. DEN •
NISON,
The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER said
that the 1,000,000/. remaining in hand would be avail-
able for carrying out the provisions of several Bills
passed last session for the purpose of granting loan,
for the improvement of land, and for the settlement
of some still outstanding accounts in the Commis-
sariat Department.

ing, nothing to do. If all these things were attended
or ,e notse,
thewithout
a duties,
for instance, which pressed heavily on the poor might
in-
crease, onlybut mmaing3h might
taxes—the
the income-tax
window
be removed. On the grounds he had stated he asked
b tea x l,cf andt
the House not to agree to one item of the estimates
until after the debate of Monday evening. The Hon.
Nlenaber concluded by moving, " That it is expedient
that the expenditure of the country should be reduced,
not only to render an increase of taxation in this session
unnecessary, but that the expenditure should be further
reduced as speedily as possible, to admit of a reduction
of the present large amount of taxation."
Mr. 'WARD said, that as his Hon. Friend the Member
for Montrose had thrown a large portion of blame on the
naval estimates, and as he (Mr. Ward) had not had an
opportunity of making a statement to the House on be-
half of the naval department, perhaps he could not take
a better one than the present for calling the attention of
the House to a few circumstances bearing on the ques-
tion. What he wished to put to the House was this :
There had been great additions to the estimates, no
doubt, during the last ten years, without a single divi-
sion against any increased expenditure —(hear, hear.)
His Hon. Friend was in his place when he (Mr. Ward)
announced the intention of Government to add 1,500 to
the marine force. They were voted last year without e
dissentient voice or a division ; and it was only when
they came to pay the bill that faults were found with the
amount of the naval expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
he made every allowance for the altered position of the
country, and the distress prevailing in the great mercan-
tile community, and he knew that great pressure was
exercised on such Members of that House as repre-
sented large constituencies. But he contended that good
reasons could be given for the increase in the naval esti-
mates, and that the country had had good value for the
money expended.—(Hear, hear.) Ho was prepared to
say that when the Right Honourable Baronet the
Member for Tamworth commenced that large expendi
cure which the present Government were only following
up, he wts consulting the real interests and safety of
the country.—(Hear, hear.) lie would now call the
attention of the House to the three principal votes in
the naval estimates. For works in 1835, the sum ex-
pended was 62,4401. That vote had been increasing
annually; it was in 1843-44, 214,0001.; in 1844-45,
298,0001.; in 1845-46, 486,0001.; in 1846-47, 527,8101.;
and in 1847-48, the present vote, it had increased to
668,0001., showing an apparent addition of 140,0001.
lie said an apparent addition, because the whole
of the new works were included in one vote
instead of being spread over four, as had previously
been the practice.—(Hear, hear.) The item of stores
had increased in an equal proportion. From 426,0001
in 183.5-36 they had increased to 1,511,0001. during the
present year, and dockyard works precisely in the same
ratio. The reason of all this was that during the last
few years a new power had come into existence, for
which this country was bound to provide, not only by
substituting steam-vessels for sailing vessels, but by
bui'ding clocks and factories where such works could be
carried on—those splendid establishments which the
Right Hon. Baronet had commenced, and the present
Government hail completed with the consent and appro-
bation of the House of Commons.— (Hear.) The country
had paid for steam machinery alone 2,689,0001, which,
with stores, accounted for three and a half millions at
once. The dockyards, which, in 1833 were in a state of
destitution, had been renovated until no more magnifi-
cent establishments could now be found in any part of
the world.—{hear.) We had magnificent steam facto-
ries, besides steam basins at Portsmouth and Devonport,
all of which he maintained were necessary to the existence
of such a steam navy as was imperatively required by
such a country as this, on the principle that every
country should look to its own interest and its own
safety. That was what the present Government had
clone. It was felt that it would be most perilous to be
without a steam navy in the possible contingency of a
rupture with any foreign country. Neither could proper
places fur repair of crippled vessels be dispensed with,
nor had they been complained of, until now that the
[louse was called upon to pay the bill.—(Hear, hear.)
Now, instead of treating the matter as any railway
company would have treated it, that was to say, as en
investment of capital, the House merely looked upon it
as an increase in the votes. lie contended that it was
merely so much money capitalised. Taking out what
was necessary for the repairs of dockyards, there was
half a million invested in great national establishments.
Neither were these confined to this country. We had
a large establishment at Malta, where the steamers
could be repaired, instead of being sent home for that
purpose. This was a measure which would result in
great economy of money.—(Hear, hear.) He repeated,
then, that this country had received value for the money
which had been expended. If it could be shown that
these establishments were unnecessrry, that England
would have been secure without following the same
course as other powers iu substituting a steam for a
sailing navy, then there might be good grounds for
impeachment. But the fact was, that fur ten years the
House had regarded this and similar expenditure as
absolutely necessary for the security of the country, and
not only that, but there had been constant cries for har-
bours of refuge and all sorts of demands on the part of
Hon. Members. Now, however, when tho bill came to
be paid, every one found fault with the expense.—(Hear,
hear.) He asked the House whether they had not had
value for their money? They had new and splendid
works, which, being finished, would cease to be an item
of expense; and he hoped the time would soon come
when demands for them would cease on the part
of the Government. He would for a moment call
the attention of the House to the past and present con-
itgelaimte -rvse,
con-
dition of our steam navy. In 1835 we had 23 small
ss
ande ls p
re(mpep
loeyde employed packetsa4s,ls3 horsepower.
or a dockyard
11841,
when the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth
came into power, we had 55 steamers of 9,503 horse-
power; and on the let of January, 1848, we had 134
steam-vessels, some as fine as any in the world, and of
35,565 horse-power.—(Hear, hear.) That was a list
which he was not ashamed to lay before the House, as a
mode of accounting for increased expenditure. The
lion. Member for Montrose had first taken the estimates
for 1835, and compared them with those of the
present year, complaining that an increase was
proposed of 7,622,000/. He (Mr. Ward) had analysed
them and had endeavoured to arrive at a distinct
conclusion respecting them. The fret item he found had
not existed in 1835, bat for the sake of the great commer-
cial interests of the country had been since adopted.
Government had organized a complete system of packets,
which were included in the Admiralty estimates, although
properly the Admiralty had nothing to do with them,
being simply administrators of the will of that House.—
(Hear.) Tho vote for the contract packets was
611,6621., and the double line of packets to New York
had caused an increase of 46,0001.; add to this
61,6981. paid to Queen's vessels employed as packets,
and the packets from Holyhead to Dublin, which would
soon commence running, and there would be a total of
773,000/. for the contract service. There were besides
181,0001. which, though charged to the navy, properly
belonged to the army and ordnance. Then there was
for troop ships, wages, &c., 25,5251., and 11,0001. for
victualling the convict department, for which his Right
Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department
was properly responsible.—(Hear, hear.) These, with
one or two other items for provisions in other depart-
ments, would make a deduction of 1,057,000/. from
the seven millions and a half. But, besides all that,
there was the dead weight over which the
Admiralty had no control, and which had been
added to repeatedly at the suggestion of the House.
They could not resist the appeals of old officers; but,
when the sums were put down in the estimates, then
fault was found with the Government. So it was, how-
ever, that with the help of the House the dead weight
had amounted to 1,395,0721. Take this, and the vote for
works, which ho contended should be looked upon as
permanent investments, take off 100,000/. from the vote
of the present year for repairs of dockyards, and the vote
for permanent works 588,601/., and there would be at
once a deduction of 3,041,0001. from the effective naval
estimates of the year, leaving a total amount of effective
naval expenditure of 4,685,6271., instead of 7,000,000/—
(Hear hear.) There had been in the establishment of
the steam navy, much expense incurred in experiments.
Mistakes had been committed, and knowledge had been
bought by experience. The ntore enthusiasm in science,
the more likelihood of making mistakes. It was impos-
sible to perfect any system without mistakes; and our
system was rapidly approaching perfection. Under
these circumstances he entreated the House to take a
fairer view of the public expenditure, and to think that
its increase was for the national benefit.—(hear, hear.)
He entreated them to believe that there was something
more rational in it than his Hon. Friend the Member
for Montrose had represented; and that for all that
had been spent the country had received valuable con-
sideration.—(Cheers.)

Mr. OSMiItNE hoped that the House would not bo
led away by the eloquent speech of his lion. Friend the
Member for Sheffield to imagine that they were merely
engaged in a debate on the naval estimates. The Hon.
Member, in his able statement, had rather forestalled the
labours of the Select Committee, for if Government was
so satisfied with the present enormous expenditure, why
refer the matter to a Select Committee at all ? He was
convinced that no other Minister would have conde-
scended to take such a course. The lion. Member had
exulted in the number of our steamers and their great
superiority, but he (Mr. Osborne) had been informed by
men acquainted with the subject that our steam-vessels
were exceedingly ill-constructed and not at all calculated
for the purpose intended.—(Hear, hear.) But his object
in rising was not to criticise the conduct of the Ad-
miTalty, but to review, as well as he was able, the whole
system of government in this country.—(Laughter.) Ile
objected to the course taken by the Government in re-
ferring the estimates to a Select Committee. He also
objected to the increase of the income-tax, which, on its
original imposition, was described by Mr. Tierney as a
system of indiscriminate rapine.--(Hear.) But it was
the common practice of the Whigs to rail at taxes when
in opposition, and to double them when theS' got into
power.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord at the head of the
Government had made his first exposé of his financial
policy in a clear and unsatisfactory speech. There was
no mistake about it. But being very badly received, his
Noble Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
e.gorne down on the following Monday to make en apo-
' He could not, notwithstanding the light Hon.
Gentleman's eloquence, consent to send the estimates to
a Select Committee. As to the fears of invasion on
wh
ich
rtahpeiyd
yw earbea
tf
ionugn. d d h
The,
Ebaerlli e
of
fe du tile hatsm
et hr
eo,s fears
se
letter
had alarmed several old ladies, and their alarm had been
increased by seeing the private secretary of the
Prime Minister gazetted to a lieutenancy in the Middle-
sex militia.—(A laugh.) He feared that the whole
system of government at present carried on was cal-
culated unnaturally to increase the national expenditure.
The system pursued by the Colonial-office perhaps
more than any other required examination. The
determination of the people was that there should be
cheaper government. It was his opinion that the ex-
penditure of the country might be reduced at least

5,000,0001. or 6,000,0001. a year, without impairing the el
efficiency of the public establishments. The appoint-
ment of the proposed Committee, however, was a mere
shelving of the question. Ho entreated the Noble Lord
to pause before he insisted on pressing his proposition of
en increased income-tax. The country had reached the
utmost limits of peace taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Let
the Government take a lesson from what was passing
around them. Let them take warning by what was
taking place on the Continent—where the opposition to
he popular feeling in the prevention of a dinner had
involved the destruction of a dynasty. The best national
defences were to be found in the hearts and affections of
the middle class, the best mode of obtaining which was
not the imposition of a war-tax in time of peace.
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN was not prepared to admit that
there was any necessity for increasing the income.tax,
though he considered that a well•regulated property-
tax was the fairest that could be imposed. It appeared
to him an extraordinary course to appoint a Committee
to examine into the expenditure of the country, and,
pending the inquiry, to propose an increase to the bur.
dens of the country, before it was known whether the
maintenance of the public establishments rendered sueli
increase necessary.—(Hear, hear.) . His opinion was,
that a considerable reduction might be made in those
establishments without injury to the public service. He
concurred with the Honourable Member for Manchester
that there was no necessity for keeping a British fleet in
the Tagus. Then, with regard to the Kafir war, it was
unreasonable to ask the House at once to vote upwards
of 1,000,0001. upon the faith of statements only placed
in the hands of Honourable Members that day, and
which they had had no opportunity of examining.
—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) But the expenditure
under this head had been going on, it appeared, for
two years. Why was not the subject brought under
notice during the last session? By a strict exercise of
economy in all the public departments, he had no doubt
that the estimates might be reduced by three millions,
and that there would be no necessity for increased taxation.
—(bleer.) Our position with regard to France it ap
peered was made a plea for increased expenditure. The
true interest of this country was to maintain the best
understanding with France. In this respect he believed
the policy of the Noble Lord (Palmerston), in 1840 and
1841 had be,m, attended with unfortunate results—it had
engendered distrust, and induced France to increase her
military establishment, which increase was made the
ground for adding to our own military expenditure. It
was not only for the mutual interest of the two countries
themselves, but of Europe and the world, that England
and France should on good terms.—(Hear.) Had
there been a good understanding between England and
France at the time, it was his conviction that the absorp-
tion of Cracow by Austria would never have taken place.
—(Hear, bear.) The occupation of Circassia by Russia,
and the success of the designs of Russia against fork, y,
might in the same way have bee* prevented. Though
there was no danger of foreign invasion, there was in the
discontent of the Irish people, a source of (huger whieh
no increase in the estimates could obviate. Give Ire•
land her own Parliament. and no foreign power ti,ould
dare to put their foot in that country. At this moment
the people of Ireland apprehended you (said the Hon.
Member) more than they do the French. You have
treated theta as enemies, and by your tyranny and bad
government you have made them such. Let them look
back to the history of the country—England had never
been strong unless she had Ireland with her—and it
was fear only, and not a sense of justice, that had in-
duced her to grant any concessions to that country. lle
called upon Ministers to say how the poor of Ireland
were to be supported during the ensuing spring. The
poor-law would be wholly insufficient for the purpose.
In many districts it would absorb the whole of the pro.
perty. It was the duty of the Government to take
measures for preserving the people of Ireland from star-
vation, and he called upon them to state what measure,
if any, they were prepared to propose for that purpose.
The lion. Member concluded by declaring that his best
assistance should be given to any effort to reduce the
expenditure of the country.

Lord J. RUSSELL could scarcely understand the
purpose of the Hon. G entleman who advocated this
motion.—The lion. Member for Montrose thought it a
matter of reproach against the Government that they
had not, some time ago, appointed a Committee to ex-
amine into the expenditure of the country. The Hon.
Member for Middlesex, on the other hand, thought it a
matter of reproach that it should be appointed now,
holding it to be an abdication of the functions of the
Government. Then, again, the Hon. Member for
Limerick had told them that be was prepared to resist
any increase of taxation, but called on Government, at the
same time, to propose some large grant of money for the
purpose of relieving Irish destitution, leaving Ministers
to get out of the difficulty as they might. lie was at
a loss, therefore, to understand the purpose of the pre-
sent discussion. Great fault had been found in the
course of these debates with the speech with which
he had introduced the budget, but it was curious
enough that not one of the propositions he had then
laid down had been controverted. He had said it
was the interest of this country to keep on good
terms with France. No one had controverted
that proposition, or had disputed that it was to
our interest to remain at peace. (Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member for Middlesex, who had not disputed
his figures, hail found fault that ho had stated them with
sang froid. lie (Lord J. Russell) was not aware that he
had done so. He had stated the figures, and the lion.
Member had not denied their accuracy ; but he com-
plained that he had not made his statement with that
amount of passion and enthusiasm which, in the Hon.
Member's opinion, should have accompanied it. The
Hon. Member wished to know for what purpose the
increase in the estimates was made, The Hon. Gentle-
man should remember that there were many persons in
this country who were of a different opinion from
himself, and who complained that our establishments
had not been sufficiently increased ; that our navy
was at too low a scale ; that our army was
insufficient to meet any sudden contingencies that
might occur ; that the ordnance was not euai-
ciently cared for, and that altogether our establish-
ments were not in that state of efficiency in which they
ought to be. To meet this charge, he had thought it pro-
per to show what had been done, and what expendi-
ture had actually been incurred, to make those esta-
blishments effective, and to show, also, that it was not
necessary to increase them beyond what ho had stated.
The Hon. Member for Middlesex, it would seem, was
himself one of those who was not long since of opinion
that our national defences wire iusufficient, for before
' Christmas he placed a notice on the paper, of a motion
to call the attendee of the House to the state of those
defences—(Cheers and laughter).—showing that, in his
view, some addition was required.—(" No," from Mr.
Osborne.) Perhaps the Hon. Member merely intended
to make a speech, to prove that enough had been done ;
but, if so, the notion was rather an extraordinary one.
—(Hear, }lean) And he (Lord .John Russell) had been
told that many of the Honourable Gentleman's consti-
tuents took alarm at that notice, and wrote to him
remonstrating against what they thought his project
of increasing the armament of the country.—
(Mr. Osborne, " No.") The Honourable Member had,
however, it appeared, concealed his real purpose till
now, and it was found that he had no such intention
as that attributed to him.—(" Hear," and a laugh.)
lie (Lord John Russell) must say, however, that the
ambiguity of the Hon. Member's motion was to some
extent the cause of his considering it necessary to ex-
plain to the House the means of defence we had, es coin-
pared with those of that country with whom some per-
sons here, and others abroad, had, without meaning any
offence, thought it possible that a war might ensue. The
Hon. Member for Middlesex thought Government pro-
posed to delegate to a Committee that responsibility
which properly rested with the Ministry as to the num-
ber of men to be voted for the army and navy. In that
respect the Hon. Gentleman was mistaken. He believed
this Committee, like those which had been appointed
from time to time, and formerly were appointed about
every ten years to go through the details of expenditure,
would be attended with useful results as satisfying the
country that that expenditure was actually and properly
incurred, and in other respects as eliciting suggestions
for future economy. But, as regarded the number
of men proposed for the great establishments—the
army and navy—the Gouernment was responsible,
and he trusted to be able to defend the votes for the
army and ordnance as effectually as his Hon. Friend
' the Secretary for the Admiralty had defended that for
the navy.---(Hear, hear.) At all events, he should not
fear to encounter the discussion upsn those votes, or to
stand by them. The Honourable Member for Limerick
had, however, referred to another and a different sub-
ject. In asking the House to deal with the condition of
the people of Ireland, the Honourable Member had re-
ceived in a very ill spirit that which was, perhaps, the
greatest effort ever made by any country on behalf of a
part, of its population.—(Bear, hear.) That effort was
not the doing of the Government—it was not the bene-
volence or philanthropy of Government—but it was the
act of Parliament, and the House of Commons espe-
cially, who, in the most generous manner, voted the
money necessary for averting the consequences of that
famine with which Ireland was afflicted, which money
was spent in what seemed, at the time, to be the most
economical and effectual manner, in giving food directly
in redoes to three millions of people.—(Hear, hear.)
And yet the Honourable Member talked of the demo-
ralising effect of giving this relief to people who might
else have starved, and for which he believed the people
of Ireland themselves were grateful.—(Hear, hear.) But
while this was doing, while England and Scotland were
thus coming to the relief of their brethren in
Ireland, what was the conduct of the lion. Gentleman ?
—(Hear, hear.) What was he doing but endeavouring
to disseminate distrust and disaffection, amongst his
fellow-countrymen ?—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Mem-
ber had asked whether Parliament would interfere to
prevent the evils of famine during the spring, alleging
that she poor-law was wholly insufficient, and that it
would be inoperative. He (Lord J. Russell) could not
agree that a rate of 35., 45., or even ss. in the pound
iaew was had
reading
n been en
that every
day where
an
fairly
extract
r
ought to deter the proprietors of property in Ireland
from supporting destitution when necessary. But he
was
from
an t l a wr
Irish
hhlt paper ty
a
e of an examination that took place
in a court of justice, in which a man was charged with
stealing a sheep from a farmer, who it appeared was
o as
r iptspai applied.
himself receiving out• door relief, though possessed of
twenty sheep; three or four cows, and a good store of
barley in his haggard, while the accused, who lived
in the same parish, had been refused relief, though
he and his family were reduced to such a state of
starvation that they were discovered eating the stolen
sheep in its raw state. lie said while such a state
of things existed—while persons who were in
comparatively good circumstances were receiving
that relief which ought to be given to the destitute, and
those who had the means of contributing to the rate re-
fused to do so, it was most unjust to call upon the people
of Middlesex or Berks,who had paid their rates and who
provided for their own poor, to pay an fulditiona,l,tax for
the relief of Irish destitution.—(Bear, hear.) The tax
for that purpose must be enforced from the Irish pro•

prietors themselves, and to that tax Ireland must look •
for the support of its destitute poor.—(Cheers.) It was
only in very exceptionable cases—where the property of
the country did not afford the means for the relief of Os:
destitute—that public or private charity could be called
upon to supply its place.—(Hear, hear.) And let him
say one thing more. Her Majesty was some time ago
advised by a person whose memory he should long regard
with reverence, the late Archbishop of Canterbury, as it
was expected that much distress would occur in Ireland
this year, to issue a Queen's letter for a collection in the
several churches in this country. That collection it was
well known, had not been so successful as the collec-
tion of last year, or anything like it. Some 26,000/.
had been collected, which was now being divided in
various unions in Ireland for the relief of children, for
schools, cud other relief purposes. But why was nut the
amount collected greater? Because these who bad last
year contributed to the extent of 300,0001. or 400,0001.
had met with nothing but invective and insult in return,
and they were disgusted and disheartened at being held
out to the world as hard hearted and as enemies to the
Irish people.—(Elear, hear.) He begged the Hon.
Gentleman, and others who had taken the same course,
to take some warning—to learn a lesson from these two
facts.—(Hear, hear.) From the first, that there was no
indisposition on the part of the English people to relieve
their Irish fellow-subjects when in distress; and from the
second example let him learn that violent invective and
passionate harangues, and libels upon the English people,
was not the way to improve the relations between the
two countries.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman having
raised this question, he (Lord J. Russell) had thought it
necessary to say thus much. He could assure the
Hon. Gentleman, however, that Government was
not unmindful of Ireland —they looked day by
day to the condition of that country—there
was not a single day in which the reports from
Ireland did not attract his attention and that of
his colleagues, and they had shown their readiness to
incur some obloquy, by not proposing a tax fur Ireland
which they thought she was not in a condition to bear.
at the same time that she was paying a tax to the ex-
tent of two millions a year to relieve her poor. But Go-
vernment did consider that by obliging Ireland, from her
property, to support her destitution, by encouraging the
people to exert themselves, and the men of property to
draw from the soil that increase of produce which might
be drawn from it almost without limit—they were doing
that which was far better than repeating every year
(which was not a year of signed calamity) the large and
liberal contribution which they thought had been rightly
given last year, though, perhaps, it had nut been so well
administered as it might have been; awl it no similar
grant was proposed this year. it was not from indiffer-
ence to the wants of the people of Ireland, but froM a
confidence that the course e hitch we were pursuing was
that which would tend most to the permanent happiness
and welfare of that country.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR condemned the estimates gene-
rally as excessive. The increased income tax would be
the means of uniting, for the first time for many years,
the middle end the lower classes against the Govern-
ment. He objected to the manner in which Ireland was
made use of by Irish Members in that House. Telling
the Government, as the Hon. Member for Lincoln told
them, that if they did justice to Ireland they had only
to whistle in order to have 200,000 men in defence of
this country, was only part of the system which had
debased and destroyed the Irish mini.—(Hear, hear.)
He contended that Ireland would not be in the condition
she now was, of 'depending upon the begeine letter of
the Archbishop, if past Governesents of England had
dune their duty towards her.
Mr. WAKLEY conceived that the motion of the lion.
Member for Montrose, to which he begged to recut the
attention of the House, was the most rational and con-
sistent motion that could he made under existing
circumstances ; for if the House were to go on
voting money as they had hitherto done, putting
no cheek upon expenditure, this country would ve
soon be involved in a state of universal ruin.
He keenly felt the force of the lecture of the
Hon. Secretary of the Admiralty. Upon him
(Mr. Wakley) at least that lecture should nut be lost.
The Honourable Gentleman had told them that in-
crease after increase had taken place a ithout any re-
sistance on the part of the House, and without a single
division. But henceforth he (Mr. Wakley) would adopt
a course of conduct that would not subject him to such
a taunt as that. He was sure that Ministers declined to
profit by the generosity of the House, and that the time
hid arrived when resistance must be offered to a pro-
fligate and extravagant expenditure of the public money.
He considered that, in the present instance, the Govern-
ment were much to blame for not having examined more
closely into the finances of the country, and proposed
those reductions which the circumstances of the people
so much required. The Secretary of the Admiralty
would not deny that it, was proposed to fix the army, navy,
arid ordnance estimates at between 17,000,0001. and
18,000,0001. ; but that was an expenditure which was riot
shown to be warranted by any circumstance now existing.
The motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose
was, therefore, called for by the facts of the case. Insinu-
ations were often thrown out against the Radical party
in that House. But he asked whether the leader of that
party (Mr. Hume) had not done more for the people than
the whole aristocracy of the country?—(Hear, hear.)
The aristocracy were extremely active when dealing with
the national funds, but had never yet shown a disposition
to economise them. A Noble Lord had been appointed
Secretary to the Poor-law Commission, but as long as
such appointments were made so long must the people
be content with extravagant expenditure. He felt great
gratitude to the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment for his Jewish Disabilities Bill, and other inea
sures; but when he saw his Government proposing such
extravagant expenditure he could no;longer offer him his
support. In fact, he thought that the Radical party in
that House ought to establish themselves as a party, and
that the lion. Member for Montrose ought that very
night to. be installed as leader of it. If a Noble Lord
had exhibited the amount of ability and knowledge
displayed by his Hon. Friend he would be idolised
by his party ; ho therefore trusted that all those
who called themselves Radicals would combine
and give to his Hon. Friend that support
which his new situation would entitle him to, and to
whom it could not but be gratifying to know that his
labours were fully appreciated, not only in that House,
but by the milieus out of it.—(liear, hear.) He trusted
his Hon. Friend would persist in the motion he had
made that evening, and induce the Ministry to come
forward:with a remodelled budget. Ho should like to know
what would have been the proposal of the Noble Lord
if the country was in a prosperous state, seeing that be
had no better than a war expenditure to propose in its
present depressed state. But he must say, in justice to
the Government, that Hon. Members in that House
were infinitely much more to blame for the reckless
manner in which they had hitherto voted away the public
money. For his part, he would sit there, and oppose
vote after vote upon the principles of economy, retrench-
ment, and peace.
Mr. ROBINSON said, it was an absolute delusion to
vote for this motion until the means of making good the
deficiency in the revenue were pointed out, and he cer-
tainly would be no party to it.—[While the Hon. Mem-
ber was speaking, Lord Ebrington handed an evening
paper to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, containing
intelligence which rapidly spread through the House,
and created evident excitement for several minutes.]
Mr. FAGAN (Cork) would vote for the motion of the
Honourable Member for Montrose, believing. that if the
public expenditure were not now reduced, Ireland would
soon be subjected to the income-tax.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD also declared his intention to
support the motion, conceiving that they ought not to
vote away the public money until the grounds upon
which they were called upon to do so were fully under-
stood.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, while
he concurred in the panegyric bestowed upon the Hon.
Member for Montrose, could not agree in the reasons
adduced for supporting his motion. It was argued that
the estimates about to be submitted entailed great future
expenditure, but if the House would consent to go into
Committee he should,,,be able to show that thoy were es-
timates of money actually spent. He was as anxious as
any one in that House to reduce the public expenditure,
and he would not submit those estimates to the House
if he did not bi-lieve them to be necessary for the public
service. They had agreed to refer the whole question
of expenditure to two Committees, to see whether any
reduction could be made; the Hon. Member for Mon.
trose was a member of one of those Committees, and he
therefore thought it rather extraordinary that he should
prejudge the. decision of that Committee by his present
motion.

The House divided—
For going into Committee
Against the Committee 59
Majority —9B
On our admission into the gallery we found the House
resolved into a Committee of
SUPPLY.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ro-e to
move a vote of 1,100,0001. to defray the expenses of the
Kafir war. The Right lion. Gentleman (as far as he
could be heard) took a review of the grounds upon
which the hostilities with the Kafir tribes arose in the
year 1836, and which were continued until the
year 1846. The intelligence which reached the Govern-
ment did not arrive until the summer of that year, and
it was soon after the accession of the present Govern-
ment into office that the state of affairs at the Cape
demanded their immediate attention. The intelligence
received was that the Burgher Guard had been dismissed
to their own homes. The country was in a state of diffi-
culty and revolt when Sir 11. Pottiuger arrived, who, as
Governor-General, adopted measures which were essen.
tial for the peace of the colony, and which were, at the
same time, not the mere results of caprice. He (the
Chancellor of the Excleenuer) would not on this occasion
go into details, but he would observe that he believed
that by the proceedings taken, the Chinese coars
had been reduced, while those of England had been
augmented. On the acquisition of office by the present
Government they had telt that the expenses of this war
ought to be defrayed out of the colonial treasury. This
expectation had unhappily not been realised, though ho
believed the first efforts of the new Governor, Sir Henry
Pottinger, had been directed to that object. The pre-
sent vote was asked in order to carry out preceding
engagements, and the vote was justified by the docu-
ments now on the table of the House.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME contended that the House °Light to have
had in its possession the entire accounts upon which the
vote proposed was founded, and he maintained that the
House ought to pause before it acquiesced in the state-
ments which had been mail° in support of the motion.
Whatever might be the tenor of the dispatches of Sir
Peregrine Maitland, or any other governor, still ho con-
tended that the British Legislature had not merely the
right, but the duty, to inquire lute the Oilers of the
colony by whomsoever those affairs might be adminis-
tered. Inquiry was necessary in order to . get rid of the
imputations which had been cast out. At tl.ll eVeLtS,
the House was not supplied with the inforimition upon
j which the vote could be u6tified ; and he therefore

limear
••••
should move that the Chairman report progress al. id ass
leave to sit again.—(Hear.)
After a few words of explanation between the ( .18a-X•
CELLOR of the EXCHERIIER and Mr. HIIXE,
Mr. V. SMITH supported the amendment pre caned.
on the ground that sufficient information as eo the 'origin
of the Kafir vvarlhad not been known to the Legii datuty
He highly approved of Earl Grey's instruct'olio to ;Sir
H. Pottiuger; they were very valuable for the future, to
which we must now look. Unless the House- -were p re'
pared to vote a much larger income-tax than had hi .en
propesed, they must take into consideration the .•eductj on
of our colonial expenditure.—(Hear.)
Mr. BANKES was decidedly of opinion that ti ao vo
ought not to be granted at the present moment. . & car
teittee was to be nominated before the rising of the
[louse to inquire into the navy, army, and O rdrosnee
expenditure; and this item might form a very ieroPer
subject f,r the inquiries of that Committee. Hew ale,
therefore, support the motion of the Honourable J feln"
ber for Mont, ose. If the matter did not come et itliin
the consideration of the Committee alluded to he hit lasee
would move a special Committee for the pur Qo
The colony of the Cape of Good Hope was a sour °
enortnousexpense in everydepartment, and brouf;ht
et. no return. It might be a question whuete
was worth retaining it at all, but certainly not ss.U. 50°
an expense as this.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Bailkee)
was nominated on the Committee proposed by tl to WO
Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer on thee awl'
navy, and ordnance estimates; and he would not iiwattige
the example of the llon.Member for Montrose b, re_plor
ing himself beforehand to a certain view, but woe ad-enter
the Committee unbiassed, with a desire to effect .redno"
;ion wherever it was practicable.—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. W. MILES said ho had understood ft !om the
Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the
public service required-this vote to be imr
adopted. The country certainly ought to pay its debts.
and then let a Committee of Inquiry investag ate the
A
matter afterwards, it that were thought desiratelt . lbw
the Governor not done all in his power to pm ant the
plunder and bloodshed which had been inflicter I on the
colonists, he would have been unworthy of the ssituatiort
he held.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE rejoiced in the opportunity of
bearing testimony to the character of the Governor.
Never had either a more gallant soldier or is Wore,
humane and conscientious man been placed in charge
any colony.—(Bear, hear.) The charges -a; ;ainst Sir
P. Maitland had arisen nut from his rushing pre rctpitately
into the war, but from his unwillingness to in eolve the
country in such a contest.—(Hear, hear.) Ur iderstand-
ing that the public convenience required this ,vote to b°,
granted, he should support it; but its adopwows
not preclude further inquiry. We might we 11 begin to
reflect how large a portion of the world's act face we had
new rendered ourselves responsible-for; we :were keenly
reminded of it by the vote now proposed, at to
1,100,000/.; and this sum would probably be followed
by others in succeeding years. Looking to the futures
he flutel, unless some great change of system could he
oeviecd, that we might expect the recurrence .of wars in
that remote colony. Sir Y. Maitland had expressed
similar belief in one of his dispatches. He feared the
change adopted twelve or fourteen years ago had in'
creased the cost of the colony to this country; but that
change had been adopted from the most philanthroPi°
motives. The payment of this money would not be
vain it it led the Houee to reflect well on the policy of
extending our colonial empire.—(Hear.)
' Mr. E. ELLICE said he would not ()eject to the Ynte,.
but would impress on the House the importance of no
longer treating these colonial matters lightly.—(Hear)
Ile differed with the Hon. Member for Northampto°,.
(Mr. V. Smith) as to the possibility of temporising wit',
the natives; it was essential that wherever we planted
our industry we should protect it, and do it in a manner
worthy the dignity of a great nation. There was ancr
ther suggestion he wished to offer. Why had not the
Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mitten be
knew of this war proceeding, come down to the Jacob:
at an earlier period and asked for a vote? He ougilt
have made the best estimate he could, and then the coin'
plaint would net have arisen that the House was uses
pectcdly called on to vote a large sum, of the expey
diture of which they had never before heard.—(heart
hear.) With regard to the vote before the House., be
would not oppose it, because the Government .wets
not accountable for the war, and because the pubw
service would suffer if funds were not provided.
Mr. G. THOMPSON did not think that they ought
to be called on to vote 1,100,0001. without knowiOS
anything respecting the origin, progress, policy, or eh*:
meter of this war. The House ought to be allows"
time to reed the papers that would be put into the
hands of Members to-morrow. _ _

Mr. AG LIONBY saw no reason for post?oning the
vote. It was the duty of the Government to protect the
settlers from the savages and murderers in their
colonies. The whole of this war had arisen because
the late Government, yielding to a vicious influence in
the Colonial-office, had set aside the recommendation.
of Sir B. D'Urly.in. In the dispatch which Sir H. Pot'
linger sent home ho declared. in answer to the petition
of the settlers, that they were blameless in what had
occurred. _

Lord DUNCAN thought they should be allowed time
to read the papers bt•fore they were called on to vote l 0
large a :um or money.
Alderman SIDNEY thought the motion of the BOO'
Me tuber for Montrose rational and consistent. Thel
should not be called upon to vote money in a matter ei
which they knew nothing.
Mr. HINDLEY said that he bad been informed its
last September, by a gentleman who had come from the
Cape, that the war was an excellent thing for the Cape.
because it caused the expenditure of a large sum 0p
money. That House ought to have some control
over the expenditure of mosey. It was not right to
spend money without the sanction of the House, and
then come to it and say the money has been expended.
and you have nothing to do but to pay.
Atter a law words from Mr. HUME,
The Committee then divided, when there appeared--•
For the motion
Against it
Majority for the motion
NAVY SUPPLIES.

Mr. WARD then moved a vote of 245,410/. 19s. 7cl;
for the navy excess in 1846. The Hon. Gentleman eSi"
he had already explained the importance of this TOW'
lie said that the Admiralty had made complete sr'
rrigetnents whereby no sum would be expended in
future that did not come within the estimates for the
cuirt•nt year, nor would any works be entered upon le
any dockyard without the previous cognizance of the
House. The lion. Gentleman was proceeding witk blo
details in an inaudible tone, when
Mr. ELLIOT rose, and called the Hon. Member for
Sunderland to order, as his voice drowned that of the
Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty.
After some further conversation,
Mr. HUDSON rose, and repudiated the idea that be
had interrupted the lion. Member in his statement. Ile
had been most uncourteously interrupted by the Eton.
Member, whose name he did not know, and whom be
never wished to know.

Mr. ELLIOT disclaimed any intention of behaving
uncourteously to the Hon. Member, but his voice had,
certainly prevented him from hearing the statement 0'
the Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty.
Mr. T. F. BARING} said that the vote was a very itn'
portant one, and he could not let it pass without solDe
observation. Last year there was a naval excess of
165,0001. on a form vote. lie had made some obser-
vations at the time, but, as all economical observations
were in the last House of Commons, it was', pooh
pooh'd."—(A laugh.) This year there was a further
excess of 240,000/.; and he thought it a course that
should be arrested. He confessed he was rather struck
ith the loose mode of transacting business which
seemed to prevail in the Admiralty with respect to
arrears.—(llenr, hear.) However, after the candid con-
fession of his Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Ado3i°
ratty, and his promise that such things should not occur
agnin, he did not feel it incumbent on him to make of
further observation.
The vote was then agreed to, the Chairman reported
progress, and the House resumed.
LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN moved the second reading of the
Landed Property (Ireland) Bill. The object of the Dill
was to enable landed proprietors in Ireland to borrow
money for the improvement of their land from indici-
du.lls, cn the same terms as the Act of last year author
rise(' them to bor.'', it from the public.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
not oppose the present stage of the Bill, but reserved hi 6
opinion as to the future stages, until he had received s
communication from the Board of Works in Ireland.
The Bill was then read a second time.
TREATY OF ADRIANOPLE, Sec.—ADJOURNED
DE BATE.

Mr. ANSTEY said he had received a communication
from the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs/
to the effect that he would not be able to fix an earlier
day for the adjourned debate on his (Mr. .Anstey's)
motion than Wednesday next; aLd, although he feared
there would be little chance of its conclusion, he woulqo
in compliance with the Noble Lord's wish, postpone 1
to that date.

The order was then postponed.
ELECTION PETITIONS.

The SPEAKER informed the House that he had re-
ceiv.d letters from the agents to the petitions against
the returns for Colchester and North Stafford, statioi
that it was not their intention to proceed with the ssi
petitions.
SELECT COMMITTEES ON THE ESTIMATES.
The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, post'
poned until Tuesday next the nomination of the cow
mittecs on the navy and miscellaneous estimates.
LAND-TAX.

Mr. WAKLEY moved that the petition of G. L'
Hutchinson, relative to the land-tax, be printed with the
votes.

Messrs. TIIORNELY and BROVIERTON severally Or
p,,sed the printing of the petition, on the ground that the
petitioner merely sought to print his views on the land"
tax at the expense of the public.
Mr. W AKLEY persisted in his motion, and the House
divided, when forty Members not being present, the
House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

BIRTHS.
On the 24th inst., at Great Ilford, Essex, the wife of B•
11. George, Esq., of a son.
O❑ the 24th inst., Mrs. Alexander Chirol, of a son.
Oa the 24th inst., at Portland• place, Clapton, Mrs. Loci"
Worms, of a daughter.

DI ED.
On the 2d inst., at Palermo, W. A. Home, youngest son of
the late Sir E. Home, Bart.
On the 15th inst., at Harbyl Rectory, Leicestershire, Eliza
Georgian 2, the of the Rev. W. E. Hartopp.
On the 16th inst., in her 90th year, Mrs. R. 1Vol",
of
Hackney•road.

London Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, ab
•Nu. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112,
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the costal of
DlidJle.iox, Saturday, February 26, 1848.