The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-26 00:00:00

JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL,

On the motion that this Bill be read a second time,
Mr. FOX MAL'LE moved as an amendment, that the Bill
be read a second time upon this day six months.
Lord DUNCAN observed, that notwithstanding his Hen.
Friend had moved that the second reading of the Bill be
postponed for six months, he trusted the House would allow
it to go into Committee, where its merits might be fully dis-
cussed. He had heard that there were other Amalgamation
Bills which were opposed to this, and which the Hon.
Member as a member of the Amalgamation Committee had
allowed to pass without opposition. Be (Lord Duncan) did
not think it was quite fair of his Hon. Friend to con:e
down now, is endeavour to influence Hon. Gentlemen to
oppose the further progress cf the Bill, especially as he
(Lord Duncan) was quite ready to meet him in discussion
on its merits.
Mr. FOX MAULE observed that his Noble Friend was
entirely wrong in the charge which lie had brought against
him. He trusted that his Noble Friend would withdraw
the charge against him of having canvassed any Hon.
Member to come down with him, and oppose the further
progres of the Bill. In opposing this Bill, were he guided
by the interests of his own constituents, he should be the
last man to throw any obstacle in the way of its being car-
ried. In fact, he opposed this Bill in opposition to the
opinion of his own constituents in the city of Perth. His
opposition to the Bill was founded on public grounds alone.
in order to prevent the through communication between
the north and south from falling into the hands of a great
monopolising body. When he gave notice of his intention
to move that this Bill be read a second time this day six
months, the subject had not come under the notice of the
Classification Committee. It was not now his intention to
press that motion, but he should be satisfied with the
simple motion, that the Bill be read a second time on
this day six weeks, in order to let it come
under the motion for the postponement of the
consideration of all railway amalgamation Bills. There
were several distinct lines of railway communication proposed
between the north and the south. Theo had a line which
went by Newcastle, along the coast, into the city of Edin-
burgh, and continued its progress to the north by the Queen's
Ferry. Another line was by the London and Birmingham
Railway,. on to Lancaster, and thence to Carlisle and the
north. Then there was the Caledouian Railway. Another
means of communication was proposed by the Scottish Cen-
tral Railway; and, finally, a trunk line, by the west coast,
was proposed to be constructed. What, he would ask, did
the promoters of the Bill now under discussion propose to do ?
Instead of amalgamating in a continuous line in
the east coat district, they proposed to come into
the centre trunk railway communication of Scot-
lan, and amalgamate themselves with a short line
of forty miles in length, thereby rendering it utterly
impossible that a direct communication in a northern direc-
tion should be obtained. The Caledonian and the Scottish
Central Railway had been permitted to be constructed, on
the express condition that a direct communication between
the north and the south, giving the best facilities to
the public convenience, should be carefully preserved.
He was anxious that the question of railways should be
clearly settled by that House' and he apprehended that that
could be done within a period of six weeks; and he would,
therefore, instead of moving that the Bill be read a second
time that day six months, content himself with moving that
it be read a second time that day six weeks.
Mr. COLQUHOUN said, that as he had been appealed to
on this question, and as lie had no private interest whatever
in the matter, lie could give an impartial opinion. He hal
taken a warm interest in the passing of the Scottish Central
Railway Bill during last session, and he did so, not on pri-
vate, but on public grounds... The Beard of Trade, in their
report, had stated that it was desirable that that Company
should receive the support of the Legislature, because, of all
other lines, it would give the most important outlet to the
district of Scotland through which it was proposed to pass.
He would now turn to the case mentioned by the Noble Lord.
The ground taken by the Noble Lord was this, that the Scot-
tish Central Railway should be connected with a railway that
travelled, not from north to south, but from east to west.
Now he conceived that nothing could be more inconvenient
than that, because if they were to travel from the south of
England to Scotland, the railway that Jay from east to west
would force travellers as much as possible to go round by
Glasgow on the one .side, or by Edinburgh on the other, and
so swell their traffic as much as lay in their power. Oa that
ground, then, it was desirable for the public interests that
the Scottish Central Railway should be prevented from an
exclusive monopoly of the districts lying between the east
and west of Scotland. He would say that it was not for the
public advantage that the proposed amalgamation should be
made between the railways lying from east to west and
north to south of Scotland. He believed that the House
had good reasons for entertaining their suspicion on
the question of amalgamation.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He thought it was but right that a Committee should be ap-
, pointed to consider that question, and state in their reports
how far amalgamation of railways would suit the interests of
the public. He did not mean to say that amalgamation
should not be permitted in some cases. He should, on the
grounds stated, give his support to his Hon. Friend.
Mr. W. PATTEN could not see how the decision of the
Committee, which he had moved for a few nights ago, could
have anything to do with the case of the railway in ques-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) That Committee, as the House must
recollect, had been appointed for the purpose of considering
the Bills of amalgamation now under the consideration of
Parliament. The Hon. Member concluded by moving the
temporary suspension of all amalgamation Bills.
Lord DUNCAN said that he was very much delighted
to hear the speech of the Hon. Member for North Lancashire
(Mr. Patten), and he must say that he believed the Hon.
Member who had moved the amendment had had some com-
munication with the directors of the Caledonian Railway.
Why did he shrink from that amendment, and why did his
" six months" dwindle into six weeks? The Scottish Cen-
tral was a most unfortunate company, and ho hoped that
the House would not add to their misfortunes by adopt-
ing the amendment, which he conceived to be unjust.
The directors of the railway thought it would be better for
them to amalgamate, and their rates and fares would then
be discussed in a Committee in a much better manner than
by any discussion in the House. The amalgamation, at
which the lion. Member was so much alarmed, did not ex-
ceed eighty-one miles in length. He trusted the House
would fully consider the question as a great benefit to Scot-
land. Edinburgh and Glasgow were the principal centres
into which all the traffic must converge. He hoped the
House would not, therefore, consent to the motion of the
Hon. Member, to read the Bill a second time at the end of
six weeks.
Mr. F. BARING considered that. as the House had ap-
pointed a Committee to inquire into the principles of amal-
gamation, the House should keep the amalgamation Bills
before the House in their own hands until they had received

the report of the Amalgamation Committee, and the rules
which they considered necessary to be laid down in the case
of new railways.
Sir G. CLERK thought the House ought to agree to the
suspension of amalgamated Bills until the House was in
possession of the report of the Committee. He thought
the House should, however, act upon a general rule, and
suspend all the Bills, and not allow an advantage to any one
Bill over another. He would recommend the motion of the
suspension of the present Bill for six weeks to be withdrawn
as the report of the Committee might be laid upon the table
of the House before the expiration of that period. And he
did not see why this or any other Bill should be delayed
beyond that period.
lir. FOX MAULE consented to withdraw his motion.

Mr. LOCH hoped that the House would not agree to the
proposition of his Hon. Friend, but let the Bill take the usual
course of all other Bills. The traffic between London and
York was as nothing to the traffic which existed between
Glasgow and Edinburgh.
Lord EBRINGTON entreated the House not to be led
astray by quarrels between Hon. Gentlemen, let them take a
genet al principle and act upon it, and the question would be
whether they were to adopt some rule on which they were to
act in future, or permit the different Committees to come to
the most conflicting opinions.—(Hear, hear.) He .regretted
that the Committee was appointed, for he considered that the
Government should have brought a Bill upon their own re-
sponsibility before the House to regulate these Bills. He
considered the Government had abdicated their functions in
not eta-:ding more by the reports of the Board of Trade
last year.
Mr. J. S. WORTLEY considered that the motion of the
Hon. Member would not lead to any benefit, but, if it were car-
r'ed, might injure the Company; fur if the Bill were now read
a second time, it would by no means advance them, as they
would not proceed further until they had received the report
of the Committee
.on Amalgamation Bills.
Mr. H. JOHNSTONE considered that the Bill ought to
receive a second reading, providing that further proceedings
should be postponed until they received the report upon
which they were to form a judgment upon the merits of the
case. _ _

Mr. P. 31:STEWART was of opinion that, the Raue •
appointed a Committee on Amalgamation Bili„ shosulld'avbaldoge
by the reports of that. Committee.—(Hear, hear.) upa had
come to the House to propose the second reading of the. Lo-
ndon end Birmingham line, which stood for that day ; but if
the House opened the door to a second reading of the Edin.
burgh end Glasgow Bill, he (Mr. Stewart) would immediately
follow and claim a like right for the London and Birming-
ham Bill.—(Hear, hear.) If the House should concede to
the motion of the Hon. Gentleman, they would, in his opi-
nion, be only stultifying all their former proceedings.
Mr. FORBES felt no -personal interest whatever
in the line, except the interest which he was
assured every Honourable Gentleman present felt,
namely, a desim to do justice to all parties concerned.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, if the Bill were read a second time, it would
be merely a reading pro ibrmrt, as no further steps would be
take% in the matter.

Ttie CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it ap-
peared to him that the House having adopted a certain course,
they could hot depart from it, though he was not prepared
at that moment to offir opposition to the second reading.
Mr. FOX MAULE begged to withdraw his original . ,

ti,m, and to substitute fort—" That the Bill be —suspended
until the Amalgamation Committee have reported on it, as
well as on all other amalgamation Bill?."—(dear.)
There being cries for a division, strangers were ordered
to withdraw, when the House dividtd—

For the second reading T
Against it

Majority in favour of the second reading... —6
On our return to the gallery, we found
Sir GEORGE GREY addressing the House. He hoped, if
The Committee of Classificntion should report against the
Policy of amalgamations, that the House would allow of a
motion hereafter to rescind the order for referring this Bill
to the Committee, so that the Committee might not have the
trouble of sitting on a Bill the principle of which had been
condemned by the House.
Mr. WILgON PATTEN hoped that they would deal with
all these Bills in the same way.

Mr. F. MAULE said if this was to be a pro forma pro-
ceeding only, and he was at a future day to be at liberty to
move that the order for the committal of the Bill be dis-
charged, of course his object would be gained.
Lord DUNCAN said the promoters of the Bill would not
take any further step until the report of the Committee was
before the House. They merely wished to place this Bill in
the same situation as the Caledonian Bill.

The Bill was then read a second time.
EDINBURGH AND GLASGOW (FORTH AND CLYDE)
RAILWAY BILL.
This. Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted.
EDINBURGH AND GLASGOW (WISHAW AND COLT-
NESS) RAILWAY.
This Bill wls read a second time, after a few observations
from Lord EBRINGTON.
EDINBURGH AND GLASGOW, AIONKLAND AND
KIRKINTILLOCH, BALLOCHNEY AND SLAMAN-
NAN RAILWAYS JUNCTION BILL.
After a few observations from Mr. FOX MAULE, this
Bill was also read a second time.
The following Bills were also read a second time, viz.:—
Furness and Windermere Railway.

Midland Railway.
Ashton-under-Lyne and Manchester and Sheffield Railway.
Leeds and Thirsk Railway.
East Coast Railway.
And reports on the following Bills were brought up by Mr.
GREENS :
Glasgow, Paisley, and: Kilmarnock Railway Amendments
and Branches (No. 1.)

_
Bury Gas.
Woodstock Roads.
Brighton and Chichester Railway (Steyning Branch.)
The following Bills were read a second time :
Blackburn and Darwen Railway.
Blackburn and Clitheroe Railway.

Belfast Gas Bill.
London and Birmingham Grand Junction.
Grand Junction and Manchester and Birmingham Railway
Amalgamation.
London and Birmingham (Aylesbury Purchase.
The second reading of the Election Notices (Ireland) Bill,
and the County Elections (Ireland) Bill, which stood for to-
day, were postponed, in consequence of the absence of Sir
James Graham.

The order of the day was then read for the second reading of

THE TURNPIKE ROADS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Mr. FOX MAULE hoped that the House would pass this
Bill. His only object in rising to support the Bill was the
public interest ; he had no personal motives whatever to serve
in this case. Had it not been for the et, ing evils which were
proved to have been perpetrated by drunken and dissolute
carters purchasing intoxicating spirits, at the differ-
ent toll houses, is Scotland, on the Sabbath, he
should not have interfered with this matter.
He thought that, upon the ground of morality, the House
would allow the Bill to be proceeded with.
Sir JOHN M'TAGGART should oppose the Bill, unless
some clause was introduced to limit the sale of liquors at
toll-houses. _ _

Mr. FORBES thought it a most uncalled for Bill.
Mr. P. STEWART said the law, as it then stood, placed
the justices of the peace in Scotland in a very
difficult position. There were shameful establishments
existing in Scotland —he alluded to those toll-
houses which were situated in a thickly populated
districts, and the turnpikes were inaccessible to travellers
who, like himself and other Hon. Members, were of a sober
character, in consequence of the great accumulation of car-
riers' carts around the toll-house, the drivers of which were
inside drinking the worst kinds of spirituous liquors. Let
the House restore the law of Scotland to its original purity—
let the turnpikes be what they were originally intended to
b,?, stations for the tell-collectors, and not drinking houses
during the day, and at night the rendezvous of poachers.
Mr. B. DENISON would support the principle of the Bill,
he would also suggest the introduction of a clause to prohibit
the sale of liquors within half a mile of any turnpike.
Mr. HODGi.-.ON would support tha Bill, if a clause was
introduced limiting the license to certain cases.
' '

Mr. FOX MAULE said he was quite willing to introduce a
clause preventing the sale of spirituous liquors, except in
cases where refreshment could not be obtained unless at a
distance of five miles.

Mr. F. MACKENZIE said he was quite willing to move
for a Committee to take into consideration the whole state of
the question of licensing in Scotland, and he wished the
Hon. Member not to press his motior.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said he was not there to say there
were no abuses under the system, very far from it, and he
was most anxious to see a thorough reform effected in the
system ; and, therefore, on these grounds he most decidedly
should support the measure.—(Hear, hear.)
The House then divided, when there appeared—

For going into Committee
Against it
Majority for going into Committee —l2
The House then went into Committee.
After some discussion, in which Mr. STUART WORTLEY
and several other Hon. Members took part,
Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to.
On clause 3 being read,
Mr. FOX MAULE moved to insert the words, " that no
toll-bar shall b 3 licensed for the sale of wines or spirits, if the
said toll-bar shall be within five miles of any house situated
from the turnpike-road, which may be regularly licensed
by the magistrates or justices of the peace fur the time being,
for the sale of wines or spirits."
On a division there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority against it
Another division then took place in consequence of there
not being forty Members present on the previous one, when
there appeared for—
_ •*"

The orignal clause l9
Against it
Majority in favour of the original clause —2
Upon our re-admission into the gallery we found Mr.
FORBES MACKENZIE on his legs, moving an amend-
ment to reduce the distance to half a mile.

The Committee divided, when there appeared—
Against the amendment
In favour of the amendment lB
Majority. against the amendment —1
The clause as originally proposed was then agreed to.
Mr. FOX MAULE intimated that he did not wish to pro-
ceed further with the Bill after the opinions which had been
expressed.
The House then resumed.
LAW OF SETTLEMENT.'

Colonel WOOD moved that the Bill printed in 1823, in
reference to this subject be reprinted aLd laid before the
House.—Agreed to.
PUBLIC-HOUSES IN SCOTLAND.

Mr. F. MACKENZIE gave notice that on Friday next he
would move the appointment of a Select Committee to in-
quire into the mode of granting licenses to public-houses in
Scotland.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
house adjourned at half-past Four o'clock.

RAILWAY COMMITTEES.

(YESTERDAY.)

HOUSE OF LORDS.

WATZItrORD,NVZX7I,I7.73,V7NC=.I+OW, A.NTP

zunaaN.

Their Lordships Committee on this Bill met to-day at twelve
o'clock in the Lord Chancellor's Court—present, Lord Auckland
(Chairman), Lord Kinnaird, Lord Sydney, Lord Colville, and Lord
Rossie.

The object of the line Is to connect by railway the principal ports
and towns on the east coast of Ireland. The length of the contem-
plated line is 163 miles—the estimated cost (including the branches
to Carlow and Wexford) is 2,000,0001. The engineers are Mr.
Brunel, Mr. Farren, and Mr. Gibbon.
After the usual formal evidence had been put in,
Mi. J. GEORGE, counsel for the Bill, called Mr. Farren, who was
examined at great length as to the engineering advantages and diffi-
culties. The evidence of this gentleman was corroboratel by
Mr. Gibbon.
Mr. HATCUELL, on the part of the Carlow Ralway Company, op-
posed the Bill, End en es-examined the witnesses at great length, 1:s
did also
PERCEVAL BARRE.% who appeared as counsel for opposing
landholders.

Mr. -BAKER appeared also for other parties.
The details were not of an interesting character.
the
Nldence In detail was gone into respecting the traffic on the main
and
branches, which occupied the remainder of the day.

SVUMMIZT AND CAILVJAVX.

The Committee on_ this Lill met again to day, Lord Selkirk,
chairman.

The case for th 3 Mullingar Company was proceeded with. Seve-
ral witnesses were called in support of the scheme, amongst whom
were Lord Castlemain, Sir Percy Nugent, Sir John Burgoyne, &c.
The witnesses were severally cross-examined, but their evidence
went to show that the line of the Mulling,ar Company was one which
would meet the wants of the country through which it passsed.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
GROUP IX.

--
TM Committee met to-day, at half-past twelve o'c..;oek, Lord
Woreley in the chair, when lila further consideration of
TELE GZASGOVir lUNCTION 11.131 Z-•

noun TEnTaXNUS.

was resumed.
Mr. Cawi said, that since last night an arrangement had been
come to with the Clyde River Trust, by whleh their opposition was
withdrawn. A clause had been agreed to, which would give the
trust the regulation of the rails to be laid down on the quay.
Mr. Gule, civil-engineer, was recalled, and briefly re-examined,
with the effect of showing that the nearest gradients and curves were
on the portions of the line that would be used the least, being on the
branch that joined with the Barrhead and Neilston line. The great
ti attic would come from the Pollee and Govan, which would be a
straight line. The forks at the harbour would be worked by horse
power, and at the rate of four or five miles an hour, so that there
would not be any inconvenience.
Mr. Miller, civil engineer, examined. He agreed with Mr. Gale's
estimate. They were quite ample enough. He had not surveyed
the line, bat he had looked over the plans and sections of
all the schemes, and he considered the Grand Junction one of the
best. He did not think the gradients and curves ought to give
any preference to the other two schemes. On a nominal line they
were perfectly workable. It was quite practicable to reduce the line
at the crossing of the Paisley road, so as to work locomotives if it
was required. This could be done without a great increase of the
gradient there. Generally, he preferred the Grand Junction to the
other two.
The witness was cross-examined, with the object of showing the
difficulty of working the gradients and curves and the using of loco-
motives ; but the answers were only a re-iteration of the examination
in chief.
Mr. Robertson, a coal and mineral proprietor, was briefly examined,
and deposed as to the superiority of the Grand Junction scheme over
the other two, for all minerals coming off the Clydesdale Junction
and the Pollee and Govan Railways.
Mr. David Stevenson, civil engineer, was shortly examined in
corroboration of Mr. Gale and Mr. Miller, when
Mr. CARBOL announced that his case was closed. He had several
other witnesses to call resyeeting the value of the land; but, in defe-
rence to the Committee, he would not call them then. Should any-
thing arise out of the case on behalf of Sir John Maxwell, he hoped
th2Cominittee would allow him to call some of them on that point.
_ _

;;aM.
making
air eottletihrelnLsreepalleidd to the ease of the Grand Junction at
eeree length, contending that its promoters had failed altogether in
traffic. The
that they were note
parties
traffic on to the same quay with the general
bringing the Lehi , especially in showing the necessity of
snwho had been called on this point had admitted
pointthesot little evidence they gave, instead of
bour traffic, yet ch acquainted
proving the with the management of lutr-
ifgol,t to he established, had actual:),
strengthened the scheme which be had the honour of appearing.
The Learned Gentleman then glanced at the engineering evidence
adduced, showing its demeris I,i comparison with the Harbour
maintainingi the decided Minertsi scheme, and concluded
supe-
riority of the latter over the Grand Itiet
:Psznttihtee case en behalf of
tlrand Junction
Mr. sergeant MURPHY then proceeacdagtuoii:
Sir Joists Maxwell, who petitioned
scheme, on the ground that it had seriously damaged' his property.
The Leanied Gentleman was about entering into particulars when
the Chairman directed the room to be cleared.
On our re-admission the CHAIRMAN intimated that the Committee
had decided the preamble of the Grand Junction Bin was not proved,
and, therefore, there was no necessity for Mr. her eant Murphy to
proceed in his opposition to it.
Mr. TALBOT then replied on the part of the General Terminus
ofcheme, oing over the evidence as bearing on tbe respecave merits
the two schemes. All the evidence that had been adduced on be-
half of the Grand Junction and the General Terminus, he contended,
want to show that it would be highly advantageous for the mineral
traffic to be brought as near as
possible to the general traffic
without incommoding this harbour. The General Terminus accom-
plished this in the most satisfactory manner. The Learned Gentleman
then reviewed the evidence on behalf of the two schemes now to be de-
cided on by the Committee, in opposition to Capt. Washington, who
had given evidence from a mere casual visit to Glasgow, there was
the authority of the River Trust, the Conservators of the river, Mr.
Walker, the eminent engineer, and the leading traders and commercial
gentlemen of Glasgow, all of whom were in favour of the general ter-
minus. It was not only the best scheme for its mode of connexion with
the river, but in an engineering point of view, or in the matter of tolls, 1
it was to be preferred to its rival. The Learned Gentleman, after
dwelling in detail on these points, submitted the Bill for which he

appeared to the favourable consideration of the Committee—if one
Bill was to be only allowed—as that which was most likely to meet
all the purposes fir which a line of railway was proposed.
The room was then cleared for the decision cf the committee.
On our return the Chairman intimated that the Committee had
decided that the preamble of the General Terminus Bill was proved,
but that the preamble of the Harbour Mineral was not proved.
Mr. Sergeant Andrews then opened the case briefly for the West of
Scotland Junction Railway, at the close of which the Committee
adjourned at dye o'clock till twelve o'clock to-morrow.

:GROUP XII.
GLASGOW AID WEST OW SCOTLAND

DISTRICT.

-
Fitzmaurice.
ILr.aVng.
sStomni,than(dchthaeirmmaini). (chairman), T. P'Eyncourt,
Mr. °Wm.bleramP irlroenr, r 3.
GLASGOW, PAISLEY, XMLIVT.AIT.NOCIE, AND
AYE (nn eft 3srcnms TO LAINIPXTS AND LES-
-IYLANAGOW), AND OPPOEXTION SCHEME.
Mr. Sergeant Putnam, this morning, opened the case on behalf of
the promoters of a line set up in opposition to the Glasgow, Paisley,
Kilmarnock, and Ayr scheme. They proposed to extend the railway,
for which they-had last year got the sanction of Parliament, from
Glasgow to Barrheael and Neilston, still further, namely, to the towns
of Dunlop, Stewarton, Kilmaurs, and 10marnock, thus shortening the
distance from the latter town to Glasgow by 10 miles. They proposed
also to make a branch to the port of Ardrossan and to Irvine. They
had the good will of every town hi the district on their side. The engi-
neering difficulties were not great, and the advantages to a rich mi-
neral and manufacturing district were so self•evident, that he thought
the public interests iinperatively called for such a line.

Richard Cumming, a magistrate of Kilmarnock, spoke to the im-
portance of that town as a seat of manufactures. The population
was 20,000, and the number of persons employed in the mills some-
where absut 5,000. They considered it of the first importance to
have a direct communication with Glasgow.
The witness was cross-examined at great length by Sir T. PHIL-
LIPS. The Learned Counsel did not succeed in shaking Mr. Cum-
ming's evidence.
George Young, also a magistrate, was examined In corroboration
of the trade of that town. . .

Mr. John Brown, provost and builder, stated that the inhabitants
of Kilmarnock were in favour of the line.

. .
The Earl of Eglinton spoke to the wishes of the district for a
direct line. The one under consideration would greatly aid the
development of the mineral fields, which were at present locked fur
want of that accommodation.
Mr. Archibald Finney, coal-master, said that the opening up of
this line would be a great benefit to himself and other masters in
Ayrshire.
Mr. Crum, Thornlie Bank, proved the amount of coal consumed in
their works. The average quantity was 20,000 tons per annum. The
proposed line would be a great accommodation.
Mr. Brown, landowner, proved the benefit which the proposed line
would confer on the town of Stewarton.
The Committee then adjourned.

GROUP XIV.
THE NOnTH ?LENT.

The Committee met this morning at twelve o'clock.
The CHAIRMAN said that, before entering on the business of the
day, be felt it necessary to state that there was great uncertainty as
to the course the Royal COmmissiceeon Railways would adopt, and
under these circumstance of uncertainty, the Committee had better
proceed to hear evidence referring to that part of the line near the
Union-street station.
Mr. Tite said that he wished to correct an erroneous statement
made by him, with regard to a wall being built across the drawing-
room of a mansion, owned by Mr. Roupell and Sir T. Wilson. • He
had been misinformed by the person from whom he had made in-
quiries. Such a wall had existed, but there was no intention of re-
newing it, nor was there at present any dispute or disagreement
between Sir T. Wilson and Mr. Roupell.
Mr. G. H. Graham was then examined by Mr. RICKARD, who ap-
peared in support of a petition against the line by Sir Thomas Wil-
son. He stated that he had made tracings of the plans and sections
of the line, as intended to be made in 1844. Had also made tracings
of their plans and sections for the present year. The line comes
nearer by 200 yards to Sir Thomas Wilson's property than it did last
year. A piece of land, which Sir T. Wilson proposed to add to his park,
has been intersected by the line. There were some buildings which
had been newly erected, at a place called the " Bull Pits," belonging
to Sir Thomas Wilson, which buildings would be interfered with by
the proposed line. Sir T. Wilson's park is a deer park, and he has
been enlarging it from time to time during the last fourteen years.
He has been at considerable expense for that purpose. A wall has
been commenced to inclose some land at the southern side of the
park; 300 or 400 feet of the wall have already been built. The line as
proposed throws down a part of that wall. The line also passes near
the Rectory-house, the property of Sir T. Wilson, and let by him to
his brother-in-law, Mr. Drummond, and the passage of trains every
seven and a half minutes would be a great nuisance to the inmates
of the building. Mr. Vignoles has stated that the line would pass
300 yards from the church-yard wall, but the limit of devia-
tion for the line skirts the church-yard wall. There is also
a house formerly occupied by Sir Thomas Hislop, and
afterwards by Queen Caroline. The rent would be 2501. per
Annum. The line crosses the lawn in levet of that house. That
house was formerly occupied by a woman in ore.er to take care of it,
but she having heard some noise in the ground, became afraid to re-
main. Sir T. Wilson then put several of his tenants to occupy the
rooms until the house was let. These persons are not pauper:, but
receive weekly wages from Sir T. Wilson. There is no party-wall
built across the drawing-room.
Cross-examined by Sergeant WRANGHAM—Does not think that the
North Kest Railway can have a station at Old Charlton. One of his
objections to the North Kent line is that it is to be a single line.
Did not hear Mr. Vignoles give his estimates for a double line.
Thinks Mr. Austin was cross-examining at the time.
Mr. Sergeant Weeesoaset—Then you may comfort yourself, for it
is to be a double line.
Is Sir T. Wilson's confidential agent. Is aware that S:r T. Wilson
offered to agree to the line, on certain conditions, last year, but is
not aware of such an engagement this year. Sir T. Wilson has never
told him anything referring to that proposed agreement. The main
line passes nearer to eh T. Wilson's property this year than it did
last. There is 150 yards difference in the plan of this year and the
plan of last year. The line is to pass to the south side of the house,
and the house looks due west. The line will not run where the deer
are at present. With regard to the wall spoken of, being on the edge
of the park, nothing has been done for the last two or three years.
The park contains about 120 acres of land. There are some build-
ings on the land, which were occupied at Michaelmas last. They
are occupied by a young woman, who opens the gate, a groom, and
a laundry-maid. The railway will pass near the rectory, in a cut-
ting twenty-seven feet deep. That will hide the train but not the
smoke, noise, and steam. It will also pass the house belonging
jointly to Sir T. Wilson and Mr. Roupel on an embankment. The
embankment is on Mr. Roupel's land, and cannot be seen from the
hall door of the house. It can be seen from tha state apartments.
There is some land belonging to Mr. Roupel between the proposed
embankment and the house. Cannot say whether that land is laid
out for the purpose of building. Never mzde any practical experi-
ments to ascertain whether the proposed embankment could be seen
from the state apartments.
By the Cnensete N—The proposed embankment will be much below
the level of Sir T. Wilson's house.
By Mr. Sergeant WRANOTIADI—With regard to the house lately
occupied by Sir T. Hislop, only a very small portion indeed belongs
to Mr. Roupel. All the out offices and stalling belong to him.
Re-examined by Mr. RICKARDS—The dining-room of the house
spoken of has been enlarged, and the enlargement has been built out
on air. .eßoupel's land, so that is his claim to part of the house.
Mr. J. Davis, superintendent of the works at Charlton House—
Agrees with the last witness as to the injury the line would cause to
Sir T. Wilson's land. The damage would be caused by the line
cutting through the portion of land desired by Sir T. Wilson, as an
addition to his park, ant the cutting through the "Bull Pits." Sir
T. Wilson has been at some considerable expense to divert the main
road from the portions of land spoken of. Has received instructions
from Sir T. Wilson to build a wall round the park. Has taken levels
of the ground where the embankment is to be raised, and is con-
vinced that it can be seen from the upper portion of Sir T. Wilien's
house.
The Rev. Arthur Drummond, examined by Mr. RICKARDS, stated
that the embankment would be visible from his house. Even if the
parties adhered to the Parliamentary line, it would be objectionable.
The Rev. Mr. Delamere stated that there was a portion of land
on the west side of Woolwich which had been apportioned by Sir T.
Wilson for the building of a church. The proposed line cuts exactly
through the centre of the ground, rendering it unfit for the purpose
The population of the district is 30,000, and they have no church ac-
commodation whatever. There is no other site where a church could
be built.
By Mr. Sergeant WRANCHIAM—The subscriptions for the church
are not stopped by the railway passing through the ground. Does
not think that there is any other site so convenient for the church.
Mr. RICKARDS here stated that his ease was closed, and inquired
whether the North Kent Railway intended to call witnesses in answer?
Mr. Sergeant AVILA/el-max said that they did not.
Mr. RICKARDS then proceeded to address the Committee at some
length on the evidence that had been adduced on the part of Sir T.
Wilson. At the conclusion of his address
Mr. MEREWETHER (who appeared in support of a petition against
the proposed line by Captain Drake) then called
Mr. Charles Smith, a surveyor. He stated that he was acquainted
wiTh Captain Drake's property in the parish of St. Peurs, Deptford.
The property has been in Captain Smith's family for a considerable
period. Has observed the intended course of the line across it. A
great many houses have recently been built near the land. The pro-
perty of Captain Drake only came into his possession in 1843 or 1844.
The property was held jointly by Captain Drake and his family, and
witness, at the request of all parties, divided the land between them.
The extent affected by the line is about 130 acres. If Captain Drake
were offered 60,0001. for the land, witness would advise him net to
take it. raft of it abuts on the high road to Lewisham, and that makes
the land possess adeitional value. The projected line runs almost
parallel to the turnpike road and severs the main portion of the
land from the high road. Witness has even been prevented from
letting a considerable portion of land in consequence of the line being
projected. A part of the ground is leased to a person named Myers.
By Mr. Sergeant Witertonext—There is a brickkilii near the pro-
perty, but it is separated by a very large field. Would like the
neighbourhood of the railway, but does not like it to ran through the
property.
ler. Sergeant Wameorixat—That is, you would like the line to run
through somebody eLse's property but not yours?—(Laughter.)
Witness—Exactly so. Has spoken with Mr. Tite about leaving
the case to arbitration, but insisted on the Company admitting the
land to be building land. Mr. Tite would not do so on the part of
the Company. Witness told him that •he could not listen to any
offer of compensation unless the Company gave a very handsome
approach by one or two expensive and ornamental bridges. The
lame is at present garden ground and it is as productive as any ground
near the metropnl s. There is a plain farm-house on the land called
the " Idtanor farm." Never had any definitive offer of reference.
Does not remember any offer of having a barrister as arbitrator. If
such an Mier were made now cannot say that he would have the
power to accept it.
Mr. Sergeant WEANGHAM said, that as he understoodithat his friend
had done with:ilia case, he would say that the promoters of the Bill
were quite willing to refer the whole matter to arbitration in any way
that might meet the views of the parties.
Mr. RICKARDS said that his Learned Friend made this proposition
as Mr. Smith had declared that he had not the power to accept it,
and he therefore wished to prejudice Captain Drake in the eyes of the
Committee by offering to do what was fair when there was no person
present who could decide on the matter of acceptation or rejection.
The CHAIRMAN intimated that the Committee were entirely of
opinion that the case was one for compensation.
Mr. RICKARDS then proceeded to produce evidence in support of a
petition from Lerd Dartmouth, at Blackheath, against the proposed
line, and called •
Mr. Fred. Thin, a'surveyor and land agent, who stated that he Is
agent to Lord Dartmouth. The line runs past Dartmouth House and
the house of Mr. Newdegate, the brother of Lord Dartmouth. II
also runs_past the house occupied by the vicar of Lewisham and the
house of the Ladies Legge, the sisters of Lcrd Dartmouth. The line
passes sixty yards from Dartmouth, and enters a tunnel just op-
posite the house. There is also a cutting leading to the tunnel;
understande that the tunnel is to go completely under Blackheath.
It will be a very considerable annoyance to the inmates of the house.
After emerging from the tunnel the line goes close to two houses
called the Windmill Houses, which are the property of Lord Dart-
mouth. The vibration of the trains would injure the houses, and
the tunnel would dry up the wells from which they obtained their
water.
By Mr. Sergeant Waallonear—The houses called the " Windmill
Houses" might have cost about 1,5001. each bundle g. Cannot say
whether they are called " Windmill Houses," from their being built
on the site of Jack Cade's Mill. Could see the cutting item the
lower windows of Dartmouth House, Lut could not see the tunnel.
It being four o'clock, the Committee here adjourned.