The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. building was placed in such a position as to
be convenient for the public. He did not think it
HOUSE OF LORDS, August 14. was, and he, for one, would be glad to see
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at the question postponed till next session.—(Hear, hear.)
Five o'Clock. It was not out of any objection to the architect that he was
HUDDERSFIELD AND MANCHESTER RAILWAY. opposed to this Bill, but merely from a conviction
I
This Bill was brought up from the House of Commons, and of the advantages that would result from a further in-
read a first time. quiry into this subject.. It could not be said that
WILSTON AND HARBOROUGH RAILWAY. Parliament was niggardly with respect to palaces, for within
This Bill was also brought up. and read a first time. his owe time 2,000,0001. had been expended on this subject.
MAIINOOTH. He thought that until there had been plans laid before them, they
Lord REDESDALE gave notice that he should. call their ought not to lay out a farthing on Buckingham Palace fur-
Lordships' attention to the report of the ‘Coutretirsioners on ther than was necessary to keep it in repair. These ought
the education in the College of Maynooth. to be placed before the proper tribunal to decide upon this sub-
ABOLITION OF EXCLUSIVE TR-A:DING. ject. He thought that 4,000/. or 5,0001. was rather too much
Earl FORTESCUE presented a retiticee from the mer- for broken glass.—(Laughter.) He would, therefore, propose
chants, traders, and operatives of Dublin, eraying that this Bill that the House should postpone the consideration of the matter
might not pass without further ielq_u_irey till next session.
.
FLOGGING IN TH'..a ARMY. Lord LINCOLN said, he thought it was only
Earl FORTESCUE presented s, petition from South Molten, necessary to state to the House that her Majesty was not at pre-
for the toted abolition of flogging in the sent properly accommodated. He could assure the Hon. Gen-
uarnmanimously praying v
but stated that he could. 'not concur in the object of the tleman, that if they (the late Ministry) had remained in
petitioners,' when he found ;nib great objections in the minds ,ffice they would have proposed this very vote
ofthose officers, who we-re, the best authority on the subject. When he held office his attention had been directed
Lord REDESDALV. said that he could not suffer this ep- to this matter, and it was found that the palace was
portunity to pass without stating, that after a careful review of by no means suited to the wants of her Majesty, and
the evidence given on the death of Frederick White, a commission was appointed to inquire into the met-
tle could not say that he ever saw evidence taken in a more ter, amongst whom were Mr. Barry and Sir James
objectionable manner than this was. And this he thought Clark, the architects, who were of opinion that such
would be the feeling of any person, except those who took the was the case. He trusted that under these circumstances
extreme view of the coroner and jury, upon whose conduct_en hehe the Hon. Gentleman would conceive it right to withdraw his
could not offer too strong remarks, especially
opposition.—( Hear, hear_) It was perfectly impossible to over-
saw when
that the coroner had rejected t tesemony
of rate the manner in which her Majesty acted with respect to de-
four medical men, and charged upon the report of one wands on the public, and when he was in office he had even to
medical man, who was a personal friend of his own. sugeest the necessity of making such demands.
With regard to the punishment by flogging, he regretted that L. HUME said he would pull down Buckingham Palace,
the-army was not compeed of a claes that would warrant the and put it where Kensington Palace was, where they would
b
ition of such a course. This punishment had been found have a good soil. If they expended a million on Buckingham
aelgacious, and he did not see why it should be Palaoce.;c:heiu•
but they
neverh make it. useful foru thefur pthuurppoushehutel.ley
discontinued. If they adopted the principle here laid down
with respect to this case, they should also take a similar view of prolVplr. WlLLltAZSmisgaidt mhae ehaldt anmevue'rekmnown of such pro-
all punishments ; for it was known that nothing was more inju- ceedings as the votes which had been granted for such purposes
rious to health than imprisonment,
Lord LYT•TELTON presented a petition from the bankers as the present. He had a much regard for the convenience
of her Majesty as any one, but bethought the present vote un-
of Worcester, complaining of the practice adopted by railway called for, particularly when there was so large a portion of her
companies in openine parcels conveyed by them. Majesty's subjects in a state of utter destitution. He thought
Lord CLARENDON said that the matter had occupied the that those who were complaining of these expenditures were the
attention of the Government, and that a remedy would be true friends of monarchy.
provided. The Earl of LINCOLN would put it to the House whether
Lord MONTEAGLE thought that the remedy should be the extra expenses that had taken place had not been for the
immediate. benefit of the public, and at the suggestion of a majority of
Lord BROUGHAM said he considered that the present
that House ?
railway Acts required some considerable improvement. He
Mr. WILLIAMS admitted he had never found a more
thought that a revision of all Bills as well as Railway Bills efficient officer at the head of the Woods and Forests than the
was required, for instance, law Bills. He gave notice, that Noble Lord.
early next session of Parliament, he would move the adoption Lord J. RUSSELL wee happy to hear the Hon. Member for
of resolutions on the subject, similar to those he had hid on the Coventry make such an admission, but bethought, when he took
table of their Lordship-' House. upon himself to make assertions he should take care to be more
EXCLUSIVE PRIVILEGE IN TRADE (DUBLIN) accurate ; nothing could be more incorrect than the statement
RILL. he had made that eight palaces had been kept up for the sove-
Lord BROUGHAM preiented several petitions against this reign. He believed, considering the convenience that the
Bill. Sovereign required, the country could not do less than keep up
the Palace of Windsor and Buckingham Palace; and
as to the suggestions of the Honourable Member for
Montrose of appropriating Buckingham Palace to a
public museum and building a palace at Kensington, he
thought that entirely out of the question. He trusted that
next year they would have something more handsome to look
at, and something more commodious for the comfort of her
Majesty, than BuCkingham Palace at present presented.
After some observatons from Captain PEC HELL,
MrSPROTHEROE said be would vote against the grant
under the hope that something better would be done for the
accommodation of her Majesty than the grant, if carried into
effect, would accomplish.
Mr. HUME said that his only object was that the further
consideration of this grant should be postponed till inquiry
could be made upon the subject. He thought he should be
only doing his duty by dividing the House upon the grant if
the Government persevered in it.
After some observations from Mr. GOULBURN and the
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
The Committee divided, when their appeared—
For the vote
Against it
Majority for the vote —49
4,5001. was next voted to make good the damage to palaces
and public buildings by the storm of the Ist of August.
30,000.'. was next proposed in payment of part of the ex-
pense of works in Portland, recommended by the Commis-
sioners of Harbours of Refuge, in their report laid before Par-
, liament in she last session.
Mr. HUME said, as he understood convicts would be em-
ployed on these works, he wi,,hed to ask the Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir G. Grey) whether the plan of marks for good cenduct
would be introduced?
Sir G. GREY said the harbour would afford excellent means
of employment for those unfortunste persons. He hoped they
would be able to adopt the plan referred to by the Hon.
Member.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote f r a grant of 10,000. for the erection of a
model prison in Ireland,
Mr. HUME said that the Government seemed more intent
on providing prisons than on taking measures for preventing
crime. He wished to know where the plan of that prison was.
Sir GEORGE GREY said that he could best answer
that question by referring to the substance of a letter which he
ha2l addressed to the Treasury on the subject. It was the
custom in Ireland to ship off the transports as soon as poasib'e
after the sentence. The letter contained a recommendation
for the erection of such a prison ; but it did not state whether
it was to be in Dublin or elsewhere. The Government would
shortly be better able to give more explicit information on that
subject.
Mr. WILLIAMS was sorry that the present Government
was about to take up the crotchets of the late Home Secre-
tary on this subject. The expense they had been at in erect-
ing model prisons was very large, and there had been no evi-
dence whatever produced as to their utility.
Sir GEORGE GREY vindicated the vote, and showed the
necessity for such a prison as the vote was required for.
Mr. HUME thought there was no use in having a model
prison in Ireland, seeing that they had one at Pentonville,
which was intended for the United Kingdom generally.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said that the prison at Pentonville was
conducted in a most admirable manner. The solitary system,
as carried out at the prison at Millbank, inflicted the greatest
miseries upon those who were subjected to the process. When
those individuals were admitted to the sight of a fellow creature
they became so much affected that, in several instances, they
fainted.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether the same system as
was carried on at the Pentonville Prison was to be carried out
in the proposed model prison for Ireland? Because the expense
of keeping each prisoner was between 14s. and 15s. weekly.
Sir G. GREY—Twelve shillings.
Mr. HUME—And at the lapse of three years they put
this eonntry to the expense of sending them to one of
the penal settleMents abroad, whilst they refused to advance to
virtuous and industrious young men sufficient to enable them
to go abroad for the purposelof obtaining employment, which
they could not meet with here. Suck a system was an abso-
lute encouragement to the criminally minded young,men of
this country, and he should be sorry to see such a system
carried out in Ireland.
Mr. HAWES said that he had seen letters that day which
spoke in the highest terms of the good conduct of the convicts
who had been lately transported, and he thought it most expe-
dient to extend the benefits of the system to Ireland.
Mr. HUME said that there were many persons who desired
to get out for the purposes of emigration, but that they could
not go, by reason of the expense. unless they committed some
offence. The system appeared to him to give an encourage-
ment to crime instead of doing anything else.—( Hear.)
The item was then agreed to.—The House resumed.
In reply to a que-tion from Lord LINCOLN,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
his intention, the first thing on Monday, to call attention to
the distressed state of Ireland, and immediately after that
question was disposed of the Small Debts Bill, and Navy Esti-
mates, would be proceeded with.
The report on the Small Deb:s (Salaries and Compensation)
Bill was brought up, and agreed to.
The report on the Lunatic Ayslums and Pauper Lunatics
Bill was brought up, and agreed to.
The following reports were then brought up and received:
—County Works Presentment Ireland—No. 2) Bill (third
reading to-morrow)—Public Works Commissioners' Bill (Ire-
land) (third reading to-morrovr).—Public Works, Fisheries,
&c., Bill—Public Works (Ireland—No. 3) Bill (third time
to-morrow—Public Works and Fisheries Bill.
The Public Works and Fisheries Bill was then read a third
time and passed.
The House then went into Committee on the House of
Commons Officers' Bill.
The clauses having been agreed to,
The House resumed, and the CHAIRMAN reported progress,
and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
NAVAL AND MILITARY DEPARTMENTS BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that
this Bill should go through Committee pro forma.
After a few words from Dr. BOWRING and the CHAN.
czto.oa of the EXCHEQUER, the motion was agreed to.
The Bill then went through Committee pro forma, and
was ordered to be recommitted to-morrow.
The report of the Contageous Diseases Prevention Bill was
postponed till to-morrow.
PRIVATE BILLS BILL.
This Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted to-morrow.
RATEABLE PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee on this Bill.
The clauses, with a few verbal amendments, were agreed to,
the House resumed, the Cha,rman reported progress, and the
Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
DISTRICT LUNATIC ASYLUM (IRELAND) BILL.
The Committee on this Bill was postponed ill Monday next.
ERROR IN THE CORN BILL.
Mr. VILLIERS rose to move for a Committee of the whole
House to inquire into the operation of the Act lately passed for
regulating the averages and the duties on tye, peas, and beans.
Some error had arisen from the careless manner in which
the Bill had been drawn up, and he trusted, as this was no party
qmtLwhuyhoeenvi sewn;
which
question, itoLhl,t
:ebb,
aedHt nGt wouldrepresentationshu .see haveß,H.en
ti n h)e.
He supportw would,
oful d the
therefore, Hon. Membert dwsi forhy
witho us House resolvethdeowere objectin oafdi tepsleaul ;141 negrt e
thet ah e
aprovisionsrticleCommittees
aboutoo
ff
clause 4.
Messengers from the House of Lords brought down certain
Bills, amongst others, the Grand Jury Cess (Ireland) Bill.
Lord G. BENTINCK said that he readily admitted that it
was a blunder which had been committed by the late Govern.
meat—by Gentlemen, who pretended to be the only prac-
tical men in the country—and that after having the Bill five
months under their consideration. Ridiculous as this blunder
was, be would not give it up without another fight, because he
would hold whatever portion of protection was left to them.
By the present Bill, while barley was cheap peas and beans
were dear, and when barley was dear peas and beans were
cheap. About 6,C00 quarters of peas and beans were intro--
duced every week, which returned about 30,000/. a year,
which he did not think the Chancellor of the Exchequer could
afford to give up : but if he were willing, he would oppose it
to the utmost, and he would—though it was at the end of
August—debate the question as uncompromisingly as if it
were at the commencement of the session—a task which they
would not much desire.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER raid that he
did not think the question was of sufficient importance to enter
into at that late period of the session.
Mr. GOULBURN said that it was not a blunder, but
merely a clerical error, which was of frequent occurrence when
a large schedule was attached to an Act.
cwoovAuellrrd VlLLlERSpo:trh:el:ie beggedpp ittoi known whether
et hresu Noble Lord
du_
details d f
th error was Ibrahim Pacha, when examining the
LoAArildrr.in OeTaguYroe.RKE said he would support the Noble
VILLIERS said he would divide the House upon the
question, only he found that there were only thirty-seven mem-
bers present, which were not sufficient to make a House. He
w ou
Theld thereforew wa
si ttlihtel rua wv,
hthisdrinaowtnio.n.
ZEALAND.the Exe
The CHANCELLNOERWof
hwe,,Ni:‘,HirQaaUutEhßH
ib‘irungugahLitn, a Bill to amend an Act of this
Bill toßmillakweaaidef.uvCrisoilmonpa.fnory the
fro.rirt.heHArloww.Eos'idabtreodugl'hutnirlntrai
Government of New Zealand. The
the
foundation of a local Representative Government, atallieng
same
e
time retaining putliolent control on the part of the
GOTeliMat•

ROBERT OWEN.

Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Robert
Owen, late of New Lanark, praying that their Lordships would
found a system of national education on the principles which
he had adopted in his several establishments.
On the motion of liprd CAMPBELL, the Mandamus
(Ireland) Bill, the Interpleader Bill, and the Citation (Scot-
land) Bill, were severally read a third time and passed.

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