The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-11 00:00:00

7 lIIS

LW.-
of
ran,' Pritio
g,f pow
do, cl:11;
Layer of #

eof.6
d trofdritsol
Great tAb°
ht P-f
atitl °

ke%k; and, II er• fore, the Noble Earl sug,-.,eFtnd that they she d.
ri
*heti 't o:,ce bef. re two row3i,trates. %vim would 6•cide
t!,,„" 'oey uld :,o before t';',-.etty sessions or not. By
4 eretent arneedmet tthat foe mag'lstrate
e,a, , was
once either discharge, or sc them for trial, without
the
tin prventicn of the petty sessions.ud Ile confessed that, of
4;t similar Bills.
loe,P, he preferred the course which had been usually I°l-
- few words from the Marquis of CL ANIIICAP DE,
1447 ", ttEY suggested that if the Bill vas read a third
Ti.:pmulti be re; ranted as it had been amended.
letit to St. of St. GERMANS' said that he had proposed at
lea bring up the report on Thursday evening, when
tebritenents could have been printed, and had only consented.d
thip,:g it oP to-night at the strovg suggestion of their Loi
the ;,.,e.o that no time might be lost. He would take care that
1,1:'11 should be printed before the third reading.
tstn twitnents under consideration were then agreed to.
44: Et. ri of St. GERMANS then proposed that the Ifith
itisti,PP,'ctithg n the “arre of " should hie
esit" l,ith e addition ofstment the words "under persons,suspicious en--
when. after a few words from
1.1?::
„CAMPBELL against the severity of the clause,
duet-;OTTINGIIANI thought that there was no analoc,l.
tau ler between this Act and the Whiteb'Y Act. s was
hZiltoore severe and oppressive, and applied a more stringent
16trot to offences of a less venial kind.
t 'RD CHANCELLOR said that the operation of the
It4r:filetted by the Noble Lard applied to the country
4110%71 bathis Act would only affect disturbed districts, and
1,,,r "ently ought to b: more severe
I'os;4I4CAMPBELL said that the offence which was
:Dy A„e," by this Act with transportation, was, by the White-
titee,;"; ,only treated as a misdemeanour, and punishes! with
Aft. Imprisonment
littit" a desultory eonversati,,n, betwet n the Lord Chancellor,
Cot tin
,Rham, the Earl of St. Germans, and the Earl of
111 t's tne clause was agreed to.
Ilk: remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to ; the
%111;8"mended, was ordered to be reprinted, and the report
Th_iint.ended Bill to be brought up on Thursday,
I,l7trbtrd reading was fixed for Friday.
e' Lordships then adjourned.

1,44 s OUST OF COMSIOIVS, March 10.
?tAxic
R took the Chair at a fox minutes be:coe

)114. ti NEW MEMBER.
AILLIE CocuitANE, who was introduced by Lord
Smythe;too'k the oaths and his seat for the
Itie Tidport.
d'neriff,
„ f London (Messrs. Laurie and Chaplin)
,okinetlt'l'lne bar, attired in their official costurni., and pre
mlof ,}llPetition from the Lord Mayor and Common Colin-
lr Ne.'itv of I ondrin against the North Kent Railway
kitles ;11t8 Proposed that it be an instruction to the Com-
_llLS,Ottction to refer the Bristol Waterworks Bill and
"le Waterworks and Sewerage Bill to the same Corn •
kihAftreh,,E ,ENE recommended that the two schemes should
'stee,Ore the Committee at the some time, as the Com-
!lrtii.°lll filet have the merits of hens, fully before them,
-"Kir 'ERKELEY was of opinion that it wasa mnnorous
for the Bristol Waterworks Bill to be delayed in its
-ital' in ardor to wait for another scheme which had not a
14,,/r• ant{ which had not even been read a first tiine.
.°4' r'"OUCH ERE thought. it highly desirable that the
tsthe znotiitn ,hould be aceed,..d to.
then' withdrew his motion, arid gave notice
make another on the subject on Thursday

,Itt, tin
RAILWAYS.
Iljkp"'llE moved, that in ca,e of Rills for the formation
ete:,etnent of harbours, docks, pr re, raikvays, bridges,
blltain tor all works and inclosures en tidal beefs within
le.°4ellb berg
arY spring tide., ; and also of Bills for bridges over or
11.7 der navigable rivets, a cepy of all plans, seckons,
auks of reference, requited by the ()niers
.of the
‘704.,e: he depose i in . the offiee of any elet k of
lv tlf lii or sheriff's clerk, on or before the 30th
"!bpat immediately preceding the session of
114:t. in whieh application for the Bill shall be made,
I,:klit„-lt° a published map, to a scele of not less than half
0, ,• a Mlle, with the lines of such (leeks, piers, and other
Ckeiti'"lended to be executed uoder the Bill, delineated
Ne 4% as to chew the general -itueti;in and extent of such
)414144 works or alterations therein, shall, on or before the
kilids):',ll,7 ttepo.ited in the Office of the Board of Admiralty.
iqoaNil oreause, under the old system, whenever parties
tit',leeti,.,° °bsltelct navigable rivers in any way whatever, by
h„ts 0 °C• public works, the fact. seldom or never came to
k;qo;l:l'edge of the Boa:d'of Admiralty until after the Bill
4,11.4 g the construction of sucL works had been read a
iiiilt ii'ata-
saiti.e.-, HAWES considered that it would be a very useful
ertd - i'° their t d- g orders, and he therefore fully eon-
tte 'rt the standing orders, and he therefore fully con-
Uts observations which had fallen from Mr.
Vit. *Ch
Lt4l eqa_Eti had often complained of the course adopted
io4inemnt!nsteoners of Woods and Forests; they never.
.sent
otillili, r '‘uttilr.claus:s.until thet last moment, and parties who
experienced the
4144 'll4 ainncrint coeilirvean"teennee. consequently
ht4liertiarifevt words from Admiral DUNDAS,
,qt. °I E. said that this motion was only to carry out in
:t ki Provisions of the Act of last session. That Act gave
likekteblitieraltY the power of interfering with any railway
ke'• ttt, "41 the range of the spring tides. All that he required
` notice of such interference should be given before the
VI Noe
ki ti. It ember.
"dibie . HODGSON made a few observations which wcre
itiirter alp the gallery.
li, 'lee - '''"' Words from Mr. PARKER and Mr. LaaJuctlEatt,
0, ir;, the lion. Member to delay his motion for a day or
r
it Order s
. hty, to allow time for inquiry,
nett ...,-.4,E consented to withdraw his motion till Thors-
tie motion was accordingly withdrawn.
kideitptc„ THE CHARTIST CONVICTS.
ilat„4l of er` LCHELL presented a petition from the West
)1! teo;°rkshire signed by 530 persons, praying her Ma-
e, wiitle;epleased to grant a free pardon to the convicts
eitlaello 'Los, and Jones.
't • at CRAVEN BERKELEY presented a petition
gal Mrnil
that 0 ar prayer, and hoped it would be done in the same
vi iitigh anit I O'Connell and others were liberated in Ireland.
)
14,1 I
PROTECTION.
yhedb °CF.:LYN presented a petition from Dorsetshire,
11,L ," a number of farmers, agricultural labourers, and
i:lit:,'.lt_ f!tvour of the Government propositions, and, ex-
Neep'oeir belief that protective duties tended to limit our
l" to the injury of the country at large.
ILtiltw v
THE t'HARTIST CONVICTS.
'4;4 ',,I'IOLESWORTH prented a petition from South-
-6t lavour (as we understood) of the remission of the
etosa Ott Frost, Williams, and Jones. Be regretted that
-"kt a' luretititibot sepprt th pryer othe petition.
0 theo same effeact were presented by Mr. COBDEN
li
, • AINSWORTH signed by OW persona.a•
Mr• h A POOR-LAWS.
rat `NKES wished to aek he Right Hon. Baronet the
ill'lletjeretary on what day it was the intention of the eao-
ION: to lay on the table of the House the Bill relative to
'ltepera,,ettt of the poor, and for the other matters relative t
4Stsit totis ?
.."ntl of the peur-laws, as embedied in the :Ministerial
St
, REEL-- On Monday next.
THE ARMY IN INDIA.
4TrIi.i.4I,°LIONHY said he was entry he did not. see
klti,4",t Henoureble Gentleman - War
t%tiorkF'acte, because he had in! ended a:king him a
Mto i with respect to a paragraph which had ap-
kiilolietart. the United Service :iazette of the Bth instaet,
44 ,et that the ith Draeoons had been ordered for Ire-
tOre:!e had, however, seen' the Right lion. Gentleman on
► .111 ;19os day, when he informed him ( Mr. Aglieniiv)
I 14%,%-et t'as no truth in the paragraph in qiiestit.n. The
VrihYlie.refore, why he sp. `e of the subject. now, was to give
N c the earliest information of the inaccuracy of the
tat,

Nes EDUCATION IN WALES.
ere ILLIAMB then rose. in pursuance. of
fnotice,...rtvo
ly„tle real" 4TI address be presented to her Majesty. or. inelei
litecuee into the street ot eduction in the principally
cof
10tre "h the means afforded to the labouring elas,es
that
a
Se eft itmowledge tne English language. Ile said that the
ltiae, education in Wales was touch more neglected and
the" in any other part of the United Kingdom.
Ltlee„l 'equerice was, that there were no works produced
i hhdb an addition to literature
N peop.e weic
tai'k, .1 "either had there3 -
been en
any translations osE ne e is
,
their language, either on literature, the arts, anti
ht,t,e!ate' e'Pvcially in those most important to the interests of
agriculture, or the useful arta. That was the
ie,l'errl,„'° Which they were placed, and he thought until the
Viettil-"een,t should have taken measures for such an Intro-
le in the English language as weeld increase
teeteeigenee and information of the contreunlity
oak throughout the principality of Wei es,
la4'eee-,:' improvement was likely to take place.
eteu° only asked for an inquiry in the same wa as had
),4'14 kp n!e to England and Scotland. A Committee had
tLlilreeil'oloted to inquire into the system of education in
Ott i 4nd Wales, and many valuable reports resulted from
It-‘t
triPairY so tar as England was concerned. Now
kpttl ‘lllO4l this inquiry only one pat t of Wales
"ed to. Why that was the ease he could
itteree The report from that district, however, gave elicit a
144'llrfent of the destitute state of education, that he considered
41 44 oPon her Mejesty's Government to remedy the evil.
el' tee -ere 250,000 children in the principality of Wales, from
eiheti
°° 'lf fourteen years downwards, who ought to receive
set the) and who were at present, in a great m..asure, with-
et 1411:leans of obtainine it. He had received various letters
the subject, in one of which it was stated, that
1-:„ 26,000 children a very large proportion of
yelttec°eived no education, or of so inferior a description,
1,4 ett l; he only called nominal. That Gentleman states,
ItiO4e 255,000 children had immortal souls, and they were
eaeAlthe "...lit the means of receiving a proper education. In
euydvil, and four parishes in Alotimouthshire, con
85,000 inhabitan s, he states, that the means for
otiee°R education in those arishes consisted ot forty-seven
ite44, thirty-three of which were for children, and there
IL‘^y , 8,096 who received no education whatsoever.
these schools 11:d masters who were themselves
.the
le'tti;i'arant men, and, of course, were incapable of giving
Oafs 11 to those under teeir care. lie could give many
41- of what he had stated to the House, but
4%11'd hot take up the time of the lion. Ilembers by
to tett he ore than one or two of the statements
Neldee, had received in confirmation of. the. elate
AtTn in that portion of her ,Majesty's dominions.
itheel4i,,t° the masters of those schools were. unsac-
N-s'aree'• retail trades. Eleven masters were !miners or
rid only ten had received anv educ Own welt a
11)4 Oft pueeorninr: Led for the instittetion of youth.
lietvilieei:,e dissenting preiehere, and such was the mode
lleitlite„att Present the schools in Wales were governeh.
the'lrie; Tat the inst. uction afforded to the enthiren ot .
eltt could 'ire be expected to hive mirth
ta:theff ei•her in rai-ing ir habits or cotrect-
letl4 (bspositiens. He foued the greatest rit,-
ee- the -,""lir the purple to avail teetmsr-Ives of instruction,
teiNse hoofs,
t,i • h ch he haul contained eighty
.'"ersej";°ls, at which a lai ge riumber ef adults attenied
vsit, I'ihle .'"ur' of the day, in order to he en:ih!,l react
the ~,t4"nt tear, hear. ) He would re ter the klense to the
111 eot Trf. ilVtll4. making his staeetrient 24 VI
Roe flltrlrit.tsti!utitmmoaf the I.)eoile. sr'stile,t tie meno
and in the mile got from 2e,. 6,, a
tit, • to 2A "e miner, and colliers ,;o' '?l<. to 255. ; the au.tis.un
te
11,11 t Ist ''• ; and the commonest lebourer I`2s.s. N 18s. NO c,
k‘
1/It, mental condition of that population, so ph)
1110' tr. Trentaherne said scarcely one instaisee exieed
tite'• Teen earnieg 5./s. a week of any savings leeng
^pli4o sirs that these men, ireln,trous to the last degree.
tkttrl ''"ule of mental meats enjoymeet that they
‘,.14 Ihk3:7,sort to the public house, and there they ,p-nt. their
title '444 -"tight be asked,what ryes the cause of all tn:s keit; try
eep:tiee; Znee towards this eeople ? He could not answer the
l'etieltve e,tteit appeared to him more than extraoudeisry to
ktler ° sse°" indifference practised towards a miss of
!lre;,Ohysi,'"°eeded so much moral, mental, and, he weul t
tittle ""proyement. lie very much feared that some
ail Preer'g °f itid.fferenee prevailed amongst. the gentry arid
ee, ow_ rrleteee
,-,etlee_o kr, of the country ; and though there were, to
;',ll4—",en ;4""edge, many most exeellent and worthy
see ee Cfnimgst them, yet he should adhere to
set 4"illee a' "rl-einally stat-ed., He had no doubt if
litstrie"tleautreprietori were compelled, as were the gentry
tt'a, tber„ '"°"e period, to form schools in the vinous
e ("Way would be tenfold repaid them, not

t• translate the laws into their language, but they request
you to send the English schoolmaster among them that they
may be enabled to understand the laws, and be guided rightly
by them. Why, in the most despotic States, Russia, Austria,
Prussia, and other nations, there existed a more efficacious
and general system of education than in this empire. Look
at our neighbours, the French people. They commenced in
1830 under their present enlightened sovereign, and have
continued progressively until the present period to establish
an unequaled system of edUcation. This year they have
voted upwards of 700,0001. for the purpose of education among
the people, while we have voted only 75,000/. for the same
purpose. If the schoolmaster had been sent into every part
of \Vales there would not have been found any complaint of
not understanding the administration of the laws, and the
Welsh people would not have been placed in the disgraceful
position d ,scribed by the Bishop of St. David's, that they were
destitute alike in religious instruction and in moral knowledge.
Mr. MORRIS was cf opinion that it was highly desirable
that the English language should be more generally known in
Wales, especially as there was now every prospect of the two
countries becoming more intimately connected from their
mutual intercourse being increased. The only grant in Wales
f r educational purposes consisted of the paltry sum of 4001. to
the college of St David's. When he considered .the large
amounts which hail been given for a similar purpose to their
neighbours, he did think th Welsh people were entitled to a
larger participation in the benefits which education would
confer.
Sir J. GRAHAM did not intend to trespass on the attention
of the Howie at any length, nor was he dispossed to object to
the general principle as stated by the lion. Member. He en-
tirely agreed in the sentiment that the establishment of the
national system in Ireland Lad been a most happy circumstance.
It was true that the Scotch owed the high position they held
to their education, and he considered that it would tend greatly
to further the administration ofjustice in Wales if a more ex-
tended knowledgeof the English language was introduced there.
He did not consider that the Hon. Gentleman had done jus-
tice to the efforts of Government to promote education among
the Welsh. After the year 1839, the Government felt it their
duty to direct their special attention to the moral condition of
the people in that district, and it had been their earnest endea-
vour ever since to secure, especially to the working classes, those
benefits which it was admitted would arise from an extended
education. A national system of education had been established
in England, Ireland, and Scotland, and he would to God that
it, could also be extended to Wales. Bus he would not despair.
That House would accomplish such a wished-for event. He did
consider, however, that a sectarian or separate education was
far preferable to having none at all. In the very district alluded
to by the Honourable Member, after the report of the Com-
mittee of Council had been received, there had been established
no less than eighty-five schools, and a sum of 10,000!. had been
;ranted for the put poses of education. What he would propose
would be that a Committee of the House should send forth two
inspectors to inquire into the best means of instruction in the
English language, and that they shoeld report to the House
without delay ; the House could then pursue what course it
night deem most proper. For his part he was sin-
mincerely impressed with tl e conviction of the vast
importance of the subject introduced ; he was
therefore most anxious that some meats could be adopted
for carrying out the prmiosed object. He could r ish
hat the education should nut be merely secular. He could not
sever the secular from the religious. The difficulty was to
recencile the two. It was a difficulty which he felt, but be
would not despair, even to the latest moment of life, that the
Government should obsoletely fail in the accomplishment of
such an object. If, therefore. the Hon, Member would with-
draw his motien he woulit pledge himself that the Government
ihould immediately send an inspector to report upon the best
means of rife-tires the proposed object, and his report should
be without delay placed upon the table of the House.
Mr. WILLIAMS would at onee consent to the prop sal of
he Right Hen. Baronet, but he would remind him that while
185,0001. were granted for the purposes of education in
England and Wales, only 2,676/. reached the district he repro-
-stilted, though it contained neatly half a million of souls.
Staffordshire, with something about the same popu-
lation, received 14,0';')/.
Mr. WYNN considered he would not be doing justice to
the landed proprietors in Wales if he did not bear his testimony
to their exertions in extending education to the residents upon
hear property. In North \Vales lie could state, from his own
knowledge, that there was not a parish without two or three
schools. The exertions of the clergy of the. Established
Church was beyond all praise, anal they wsre, it was gratifying
to state, efficiently seconded by the Weslyans. Baptists, and
Dissenters. In some parishes the schools were united, and he
.lid not know of one in which there was any host lity mani-
fested against particular religious opinions.
Mr. WYSE,: rose and said that he was rejoiced to find that
there was such a desire for education in Wales, and equally
rejoiced that the Government were anxious to second that de-
sire. He had experience in his own country of the advan-
tages of education in the improved habits of the people. In
former periods that anxiety was not so much felt, but now the
benefits of education were bee -ming known to the people,
and although the advantages of improved education were not
ully developed, in about tin years they would see that Ireland
was not inferior, but that she was superior, to any other ceun-
ry in education. The full benefits were not yet to be seen ;
eta in a short time it would appear in the improved habits
if the people—in their greater regard for pro-
ierty, in their greater respect for truth, and in
their improved habits of industry, morality, and peace.
He remembered when the question of education was first urged
'n that House, in the year 1831, that it was then a question
whether education was a benefit or an evil to the people. It
would he a great anomaly and disgraceful to the country,
when every other portion of Europe had recognised the prin-
cirle, and the necessity of giving an education to the people on
a sound system of morality, that the subject should not meet
with the warmest support from her Majesty's Ministers. In
the discussion which formerly took place, it was admitted that
a necessity existed to promote education by most of the
Members of the House. Though he did not lay it down as a
fixed or general rule that there should be a mjxed education in
every country, still he thought that the right to make conces-
sions for the purposes of mutual conciliations ought to induce
all parties to come to an arrangement on that point,
where divided interest and divided religion created such
opposite feeling between the Catholic and the Protestant, and
he for one hoped that there would be a school in every district
equal to its population. The State made It imperative that
every man should be informed, because it made it imperative
that every one should know the law ; and without education it
was hard for them to know the law, and thereby avoid commit-
ting crime. It was incumbent on every Government to ad-
vance education, an' he could perceive that the feeling of the
sountry was gradually advancing towards a greater spirit of
conciliation.
The motion was then withdrawn.
THE CHARTIST CONVICTS.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE rose to present a petition, signed by
822 respectable tradesmen, artisans, and householders, praying
fur the liberation of the convicts Frost, Williams, and Jones.
Sir G. STRICKLAND presented a similar petition; and
also one signed by the merchants, shopkeepers, hand-loom
weavers, cordwainers, and spinners of Preston.
Mr. FIELDING presented a petition with a similar prayer.
Mr. T. DUNCONIf3E again rose, and presented 249 peti-
tions, very numerously sleeted, praying for the relit& e of the
Chartist convicts. It' would be, the Hon. Gentleman said,
.00 tedious to enumerate them all, but he would read the
names of a few of the principal petitions, namely, one
from Exeter, from Bath, from Dundee, from Glasgow,
tram Newport. from Bridgewater, Granby, Monmouthshire,
from the town of Leesls—altogether 249 petitions ; and he might
safely say that they represented the feelings of 3.600,000 of
their fellow-subjects. He begged to call the attention of the
House to one petition in particular, which was signed by 633
of the inhabitants of Abergavenoy, as among the names were
thesix of
er jurymen triedthat Frost,
iWilliams,
h
and Jones.
The so
the only six of the jurymen that he saw; and that they cheer-
pwryhm who subscribe who
d
cheer-
fully signed the petition. Three mere of the jurymen were
dead, and two he could not find, anti the remaining juryman
could not write. They did not attempt to jesti'y in their
petition the conduct of those men—but they say, looking to
the state of the country at the time, and looking to the
examples before them, they were humbly of oeinion, that the
:l,hartist convicts should be liberated like other individuals,
If he could receive the slightest intimation that those petitions
would undergo a favourable attention--the attention which
they demanded on the part of the Government—he would not
say one wont, but leave the question of those petitions to the
Government ; feeling that due justice would be done consist•
ent with the sound policy which such a decision required. If
the Government could give him any assurance on that point,
he would willingly desist from the task of bringing the case
before the House.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that if the Hon. Member
would send in his statement, he would let him know his feelings
on the subject.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that it was sometimes most in-
cumbent that the House of Commons should inquire into the
alleged grievances of petitioners. There were some cases where
the House ought to interfere, and there were peculiar circum-
stances which justified Members for interfering, and he be-
lieved the present was one of that kind, and he thought the
House was bound to do so from the manner in which those men
were tried. In the first place, he thought that every means
had been taken to induce the Government to extend the mercy
of the Crown to those misguided persons. Last year memorials
without end passed through his hands to the Right Honourable
Baronet for the purpose of being laid at the foot of the throne.
The Government did not then feel themselves justified in at:-
ceding to the prayer of the petitioners. He would fearlessly
state that Government would be justified, looking at the
offence for which the parties were tried and convicted, and the
circumstances under which that conviction took place, in at
once granting a free pardon, which would redound to their
credit and their sense of mercy in using the prerogative of the
Crown. He thought that there was a very general expression
of public feeling on the subject, and that it was in fact universal
throughout the country with reference to these men. He would
now ask, what was the reason of that widely-extended sympathy
He believed that it arose from two causes : it arose front a
doubt that existed in the minds of four-fifths of the population
of the country; that the conviction had against those men
was not altogether fair. That there was great doubt respect-
ing their conviction was universally admitted ; and that doubt
was not alone felt amongst the people, but even amongst the
lawyers themselves. Of the fifteen judges to whom the
point raised was referred, six were of opinion it was not good,
while nine decided otherwise, if the objection had been taken
in time. He had not the slightest fault to find with the man-
ner in which the trial was conducted; and he did not intro-
duce the subject with any party feeling, and hoped that such
would not be entertained during this discussion. The peti-
tions which he had presented were generally signed by all
parties and all classes, and many signed them from humane
and charitable motives. He had also to say that the officers
of the Crown on that occasion performed their duty in a
manner which did honour to themselves and to the profession
to which they belonged. He also admitted that the prisoners
were most ably defended by the Right Hon. gentleman op-
posite, and by the Ceief Baron on that occasion. It was
well known that a point was reserved at the trial, and
was referred to the fifteen Judges, who had d.ffered on that
point. Ile might as well state what the point was which
was reserved, although he did not think that the Hon. Gen-
tleman present would require to know it, for the purpose of
making a defence against similar charges.— (Laughter.) It
was this, that, according to the strict letter of the
law, when any person is indicted for high treason, it is
necessary that a list should be given of the witnesses at, the
particular period when copies of the indictment shall be dela.
vered to the parties indicted. Now, he believes.' he was right
in saying that copies of the indictment were not furnished at
the same time when the indictment was received. The copy of
the indictment was furnished on Thursday, and of the list on
Tuesday. No lawyer hail any doubt on the subject but that
both must be delivered at one anti the same time. Toe pehrt
was reserved, and six of the judges decided that tare (A:jet:time
wis fatal to the trials, and nine decided that it was good anti
valid, but that it was not made in time. There were
nine positively deciding that the objection was valid.
What was the opinion of the Chief Baron on that ncession ?
His conduct was creditable to his heart, and his opinion was
equally so to his understanding. Suppose the case were to
come b ?fore the Chief Baron at the present time, he, of course,
would be of the same opinion as when he was Sir Frederick
Pollock, and the opinion of the Judges would be as seven to
seven. Were the trial to have taken place at the Queen's
Bench the prisoner must have been acquitted. Why, what
said the Judges?—that if the objection had been taken in time,
it would have been good, and must have ended in the libera-
tion of the unhappy men. Lord Brougham, in his place in the
House of Lords, arid, that if the objection had been taken in
time it must have been held good, and that nothing could have
Prevented their being liberated. So strongly was the Noble

alone by the improved habits, and superior manners of the
peopie, but also • by the superior style of cultivation
which they then would be certain to practice.
He should state that there existed the most intense desire
amongst the people of Wales to possess the means of acquiring
a knowledge of the English language. In support of this he
begged to refer to the report cf her Majesty's Commissioners
appointed to inquire into the state of the principality of Wales.
The Hon. Member then read an extract from the reports of
the Committee appointed to enquire into the state of educa-
tion in North and South Wales, which set forth that the want
of a knowledge of the English language by the inhabitants of
the principality was a great drawback to their improvement, as
it prevented the proper working of the laws, th administra-
tion of justice, and threw great difficulties in the way of the
exez tennis of the Church of England and its members.
There were but few churches, and so low was
the state of morals as to almost cripple individual
exertions, the consequence waa that many farmers and their
families were almost beyond the retch of improvement. They
also attributed the recent political excitement to the
ignorance amongst the people. The report was signed by
gentlemen of great influence, whose authority was sufficient
to induce the House and the Government to give
the subject the earliest and fsllest consideration.
If he could induce her Majesty's Government and that House
to confer upon the people of this country the benefits of a
sound education, the beneficial results would be beyond
calculation. He would now call the attention of the Right
Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State to the statements made
by the gentlemen he had named. They said that the want of
the knowledge of the English language, arising from a
want of proper education presented the most serious obstacles
to the administration of justice. It were impossible
for him to furnish evidence more striking of the
consequences of the went of education than those
statements appeared to be. If the House wished, he
could multiply such statements a hundred fold ; but
he would just confine himself to two or three per-
sons who were well known to that House, and to
the country, and who he was sure would receive that attention
they deserved. He would beg leave to quote the opinion
of a gentleman, who was in an especial manner
worthy of their attention. He meant the gentleman who was
sent by the Times newspaper to Wales to inquire into the dis-
turbances which prevailed there some few years ago. He was
in that country for a considerable period of time ; he was a
gentleman of high education, a barrister, and one who was
peculiarly qualified for investigating into the condition of the
people. He was the same gentleman who was lately sent to
Ireland under the name of the Times' Commissioner. i
and who had sent to this country those very able
reports which had appeared in the Times. He
meant Mr. Forster. The Hen, Member went on to read an
extract from the reports which had appeared in the Times
netv,pap..r a few years ago with respect to the disturb-
ances in Wales. That gentleman stated, that after a long
sojourn in that country, he had found that the state of
the education of the people was lamentably deficient,
which was the main cause of the disturbances which had
broken out, and that they were, in fact, cotopletely destitute of
that which led to improvement and civilisation—complete and
sound educetion. Ile also stated that there could be no ea-
ten:iv°, sound, and feasible plan of education, unless it went
based upon the principle of making the English lan-
guage the only means of commuoication.—( Hear, hear. )
Tee useful sciences, and indeed the whole principle of ad-
vancement depended upon, the cultivation of the English lan-
guage. The Welsh people were well aware of this circum-
stance, and were exceedingly anxious to obtain the means of
teaching heir children English. This, he was convinced, was
the only means which opened the road to promotion. He there-
fore ilemeht that, this was t tie only wsy to increase the pros-
perity of ihe country, and to resider the people permanently
haply:. He would. now add to the testimony of this gentleman,
other evidence if f great importance. It was the testimony of
a gentleman, distinguished alike from his high position, and
nor the extent of his attainments as a scholar, and his char-
rower its a man. He alluded to one high in the estimation of
the Bench of Bishops. He meant the Bishop of St. David s
In one of his late charges that learned functionary had stated,
for the instruction of his clergy, that it was a remarkable cir-
cumstance, which had come to his knowledge, that several en
the children of the Welsh in the rural districts, from their
knowledge of the English language, had been the main means
of instructing their parents in the principles of morality and
relienoil. He thought, thiwetere, that the utmost efforts
should be made to extend the knowledge of the English lan-
guage throughout the whole of the Principality, for h..
believed it depended greatly upon this means of communica-
tion being extenaed, is hether the Welsh community advancers
or retrograded in religious knowledge. Now he (Mr. Williams I
thouelet that no better testimony could be given than this for
the promotion of the English language. All these circum-
stances combined to convince him, and to- show that the only
means of promoting extensive usefulness was the one which
the Learned Prelate had pointed out ; and he trusted that the
same feeliog, which had been exhibi ed in these reports would
find a response within the walls of the House, and that it
would be carried out to the remotest parts of the Unite
Kingdom. The Hon. Member then proceeded to read another
statement, and he would state, as an apology for trespassing
so long on the patience of this House, that it was the first time
that this House had been called upon to consider the education
in Wales. The statement to which the Hon. Member referrer,
was written by a proprietor arid editor of one of the leadine
journals in Wales, and who was intimately acquainted with the
condition of the people of that country, and who had written-.
many articles in favour of establishing a better system of edu-
cation in that country. He had stated, when referring to the
late " Rebecca" disturbances, that such a violation of the law
betokened the general state of uneasiness and disaffection it.
the country, and proceeded to say that if the people had beer,
acquainted with the English language, and had had a proper
education, instead of being, as they then were, a prey to designing
hypocrites, with religion on their lips and wickedness at their
'hearts, they would be, from their geographical position, anti
their great natural advantages, the best, the happiest, the
most peaceful, and the most prosperous people on the face of
the earth. He (Mr. Williams) considered these remarks as a
strong evidence in favour of extending an improved system of
education to that country. The present state of education ii
Wales was well known, and when he saw these proofs of the
existing state of ignorance, he was compelled to ask himself.
what could these people he doing to allow themselves to re-
main in such a state? A great portion of the people of the
worth of Scotland and the north of Ireland, were in the same
condition as the people of Wales. What would be the conse-
quence of an improved system of education? What had Scot-
land done for herself? An Act was passed in 1833, for esta
blishing schools in Scotland. A tax was imposed upon the
landowners to defray the expenses attending these
schools, and how well had they been repaid fir
their outlay. The prosperity of that country was
principally owing to the improved system of education
which had been so successfully introduced. There were
in that country an average of three schools to each parish.
But not content with having done all that for the instruction
of the eeople, they hail also app anted a Committee to inquire
and retort to the Council on Eduea'ion as to the working of
the system. Every means were taken to give effect to aloe
schools that the Gov-rnment venal possibly adopt. Althouea
he had eleass been an advocate for curtailing public experii•
tune, yet he never on any occasion ceased to advocate the out-
lay of public money for the purpose of education in any part
of the United Kingdom. Now, as he said before, the cones
qui nee of the system of education in Scotland had made the
people of that country the most intelligent of any people in
Europe. Let them talk to whom they w.,ulcl, they would hear
it seated how intelligent arid how indu,trioue were the Scotch
What had they dine for Ireland? They had done for Indeed
what, refleeted the highest credit on the Government.
They had done that which, in his opinion, would re-
metre, many of the evils and the crimes which
existed there, because they were of a social character aiie
would be removed by education,. He would just relate to the
House what had been done for Ireland. So early as the reign-
of Henry VIII. en Act of the English Parliament was passed
to establish schools in every parish in Ireland. Subsequent
Acts were passed in the reigns of Elizabeth, George 1.,
George 11., and George 111., hut the system of education
provided by those Acts being of a sectarian nature were con-
s, There ly uestiecessful : but in 1816 the Crown appointed a
C remission to inquire into the Nods and revenues granted lis,
public bodice for the purpose of education, and also into the
state of public schools in Ireland. Subsequent Commis-ions
were issued, arid their reports weie submitted to a Committee
of that House, and in the year 1631 a roost extendei'
system of education was founded on the report of that
Committee, a system which has already produced the
most beneficial results. Schools were immediately
put into operation, anti the result was that in the year 1841
nearly half a million of poor Irish children were receiving the
blessings of education ; and he had no doubt that in 1846 the
amount was doubled. The Government established normal
schools, which were attended by two professors, who gave lec-
tures on the art of teaching and conducting schools, in the
English language, and in geography ; and there were now ex-
periments carried out which would unite the instruction of
agriculture. Last year there was voted, for the building of
three colleges in Ireland, the sum of 100,0001., and a further
, sum of 21,000/. for endowment, and 26,0001. for the repairs of
the College of iilaynooth. It might be said that the clergy of
Wales ought to provide for the education of the people. They
were too poor to do so. In ten parishes in Carmarthenshire
the tithes were 5,9351., and out of that 2,226/. went
into the pockets of the proprietors, thus leaving
only 7001. - for the clergy of those parishes.—(Hear.)
He had seen a report of a meeting of clergymen in January
last, fur the purpose of education in Wales, in which they la-
mented that nu feeling had been manifested by the laity for
that object, and that all the money that had been subscribed
had been obtained from the clergy. He hoped that the House
would not throw any difficulty in the way of his proposed in-
qu ry. He did not wash the House to beiieve his single state-
ment. The most irrefragable testimony shall be furnished of
the destitute state of the Welsh people with respect to educa-
tion, and of their strong desire to be properly instructed. If
the landed proprietors were compelled to establish schools on
their several estates, he (Mr. Williams) had no doubt that in
a little time they would be amply repaid for their trouble anri
original outlay of expense. He had never conversed with any
intelligent Welshman who did not bear testimony to the uni-
versal dearth of education among his fellow-countrymen
There existed no portion of this empire which was more at•
tached to the institutions and habits of the English than the
Welsh people. It would excite the deepest sympathy and
commiseration in that House, if he were to relate some
of the circumstances that had occurred in Wales
with respect to the administration of justice in
that country. All the proceedings in the courts of law were
conducted in the English language, which was a language that.
the people, to a very great extent, were unacquainted with.
Thejudge charged the jury in English—the counsel addressed
them in the same language—and the most farcical and some-
times melancholy occurrences frequently happened in conse•
hWactillivaen-nrys )friragdnehleaawyrdkfnroomwnortihecoif.utrlyicglioveceal
grouie:i's'ett:atcHs ten(atlihre.
veriti -t in direct opeosition its the evidence of the witnesses and
the do-seri:in of the judge. When the jury were asked why it
was that they bad given so strange a verdict, the reply was in-
varialily that they did net seffienently understand the English
language to know exactly what was going forward, and there-
, age tbey considered it woul, be advise:ale to give the prisoner
the benefit of their igoo,-anse, and acquit him. A case had
lispormed of a nein convicted of a crime for whichs n
heg te
sweanssneerei:
teoe, dto be }ranged. While the jedge was p,isi
sae p iserier looked round and iequired what the judge was say-
ing.. Worn informed that sentence of death was being passed,
ill, prieiner seemed aslouished, and immediately declared that
ties w.tnesses had sworn falsely against him, which,
after a fuether investigation, was discovered to be the
fact. Ile (;Mr. Williams) would trouble the House
With One 111070 circumstance. A person surrendered to Like
his trill for a feloeieter assault. On the jury being empanneled,
it was notified ter the Court teat eleven of them did net under •
,teriri English, up in which the judge ebssrveil that the twelfth
juryman could explain the case to his brethren, and the trial
prec=eded. 'flue counsel on both sides addressed the jury, and
the judge summed up, -aeil the result was that a verdict was
returned against the prisoner, who was sentenced to be itn -
prisoned for 4 months with hard labour. The next morning
e'even of the jury said they were of opinion that the man was
not guilty, and actually signed a memorial to that effect to ice
presented to the Secretary of State. He (Mr. Williams) had
not yet heard whether or not the man was discharged from cus-
tody. if there existed in this country any institution of which
they were more proud than any other, it was in the adminis-
tration of justice; but here was a case which could not be
paralleled in the proceedings of any other country. He did
I not wish to bring any charge against her Majesty's Govern-
ment. He was only saying that great neglect towards the
Welsh people had been allowed to take place, which he trusted
would in a shut time be rectified. The people do not ail you

and 'Learned Lord of that opinion, that .he noteouly., used , midnight. On their arrival in the town they were to
all his great and powerful legal arguments in the House of Aisne takert possession of it and the bridge, and by a precon
Lord, but he also tried all -- in his power to- get certed signal it had been agreed upon that the nail should be
these men released. The House would recollect the feeling in stopped, and its non-arrival was to have been the signal at
the public mind at the time the men were under the rentence Birmingham and the northern districts that they had posses-
of execution. There was a petition signed by about four sion of the town, and a general rising of the people was to
millions in favour of a free pardon. It was not to be denied follow.—( Hear.) Now, what were the facts proved ? At the
that the intention of the Government was to have the prisoners trial, she Crown was represented by the present Lord Campbell,
executed—the seaffal, it was well known, had been prepared, who was then Attorney-General, and by the Solicitor-General,
and the executioner was ordered down, and he was there in the present Member for 'Worcester. Chief Justice Tindal, a
perfect readiness to exercise his calling. What was it that pre- most able, distinguished, and humane Judge, charged the jury
vented their execution? it was well known that but for the upon that occasion, and in that charge he characterised the
feeling cf the people of this country they would most undoubt- offence as one of high treason. During the trial the prisoners
edly have been executed. So intent were her Majesty's had atl the advantages of having for their defence most able
eneisters upon carrying out the sentence, that Sir Frederick and learned counsel ; that defence stood unrivalled for legal
Pollock had waited six times upon the Secretary of State for ingenuity, and every source of legal eloquence and law was
the Home Department, and the result was that he could not he exhausted in their -favour. The jury weighed well all the
said hold out the slightest hopes for a remission of the sen- evidence with the greatest care and deliberation, and the result
terms., inasmuch as he could not make the slightest impression of that deliberate , care was a verdict of guilty. Here the
upon them. After the sixth interview of the Learned Gentle- Right Hon. Gentleman read an extract from the sentence of
man with the Government, he waited upon Lord Brougham the Learned Judge, which was to the effect that the offence of
and said to him, " I can make no impression on these men, and high treason had been clearly proved against the prisoners, and
I am fearful they will be sacrificed." The Noble and Learned sentence of death was passed upon them. He (Sir James
Lord said to him, " Go again and say to them, that if they , Graham) then continued to say, that a difference of opinion
carry out the extreme penalty of the sentence, they will be having, however, arisen with regard to the strict legality of
acting most illegally and unconstitutionally, and the men will be , the sentence, in consequence of the point raised, her Majesty
vilely murdered, if executed, for it is against all law." It was was recommended to commute the sentence to transportation.
even said at the time, th t the men ought not even to Now, let him ask the House to consider whether that sentence
be transported, for they had been convicted against the law of ; was one which ought to be remitted. He did not wish to aggra-
the case, and it would be a transportation most illegally. After vale the case, but let him remind the House, that in
.conse-
the sentence had been comn uted to transportation. fresh quence of Frost having been considered a person possessed of
interest was made by the public to prevent that punishment great influence in that part of the country, he had confided to
being carried out. The Government said then that if the him her Majesty's commission for the preservation of the peace,
prisoners should conduct themselves well while abroad, after a i and that confiOencehe had abused in the manner already known
few years, there might possibly be a chance for their having a to the House, and therefore, in considering the justice of his
free pardon. The unfortunate men were sent out to New sentence, he could not overlook this gross breach of confidence.
South Wales, and they were for two or three years kept work- —(Hear, hear.) Nor, could he stop here, for he should call
ing in chain-gangs. It was well known that in this country the attention of the House to the providential circum-
nothing like an amnesty took place upon any great public re- stance that the night upon which this descent was to have
joicing. Did they treat prisoners so in France ? England was been made upon Newport was dark and tempestuous,
the only place where, at the times of great public rejoicing, and this, he thought, showed the special intervention of Divine
there were no pardons granted. On the birth of the Prince Providence, for it prevented those pople from entering the
of Wales there were to be sure some pardons, but not to pc,- town before day-break.—(Hear.) When the columns of men
litical prisoners. Look at France on the occasion of the ex- arrived in the town, one of those columns was ordered up to a
ploies of the Prince de Joinville, there was a partial amnesty certain point by Frost, who, let him (Sir J. Graham) remark,
in that country, and political as well as other prisoners were was not to be found at the head of that column, but he was
released. All of those political prisoners were Bonapartist!. found in a hiding-place. How much of the sentence of those
They were some of those who attempted, with Prince Louis prisoners had already been enforced ? Only five years. Now,
Napoleon, the carrying out of a mad attempt to upset the according to all the ordinary rules of such cases, it was not
present dynasty of that. country. That Prince was not to be usual to commute such a sentence until after the expiration of
sure released, but he hoped that he soon would be, as well as at least ten years ; hut in the present case, considering the
other political prisoners. The pardon of Frost, Williams, and circumstances under which the punishment had been inflicted,
Jones would be in aceordance with the feelings of the people he certainly could not recommend to her Majesty that it should
of this country. He knew there was great alarm abroad in be commuted. He was far from not sympathising with per-
some minds on this subject. He regretted much two letters sons condemned to punishment, but in this case he should say,
which had been written by the Hon. Member for Edinburgh that all his sympathies were enlisted on the side of the widows
to his constituents, wherein he assailed those unfortunate men, and orphans that had been made by the conduct of Frost.—
by calling them great criminals. He (Mr. Duncombe) (Cries of " Hear, hear.") He did think that this sentence
did not deny that they were great criminals, but should be allowed to take its full course, in order to show to
the Honourable Member for Edinburgh, in these others, who, though bold in counsel, were not so in action, or
letters had stated that they had not been sufficiently punished. foremost in the ranks they urged on, that when the
He stated to his constituents that the petitioners for the pardon law reached them they would be sure to receive puniehrrient.—
of Frost, Williams, aid Jones, were men who wanted to cause a ( Hear, hest.) Far be it from him to say that mercy ought
great revolution in the country. Now, with respect to the pri- not, in certain cases, to be exercised, but under the present cer-
soners, he ( Mr. T. Duncombe) believed that their object was cumstances he comd not recommend her Majesty to remit the
to cause a great moral demonstration when they assembled at sentence.—( Hear, hear. )
Newport. But men with arms in their hands it. was imps- Mr. MACAULAY, whose opening observations were not
sible for Frost and his fellow prisoners to restrain. lie felt that audible in the gallery, was understood to say that there existed
the Hon. Member for Edinburgh had acted most unjustly to- no connexion whatever between the letters produhed, as some
wards those men in his letter, and that he most unjustly cha- Hon. Members were disposed to think, as the letters had been
recterised the intentions of a large mass of persons signing the written at different periods ; and though published, he doubted
petition which he (Mr. Duncombe) had presented to that if they could in any way influence or prejudice the ease then
House. The Right Hon. Member said that the national peti- before the House. With respect to the first of these
tien was signed by men whose sole object was to create a na- letters, of 1842, he thought it would be very much out of place
tional bankruptcy, and that to give them their claims would be were he then to go over the grounds which he did on the for-
the same as to put a rimer into the hands of a marl who said he mer occasion; but he could not refrain from saying that these
wished to cut his own throat. ( Here the Hon, Member read letters contained not a single observation or word by which
the letters alluded to.) He felt that the Right Hon. Gentle- he was not then fully prepared to abide.—(Hear, hear.)
man had most unfairly used his (Mr. Doncomoe's) name in However, he would not suffer himself to be turned away from
these letters; and with respect to placing a razor in the hands of a the line of discussion, but would merely ask Hon. Gentlemen,
man who wished to cut his own throat, he (Mr. Do wished he and simply request each of them who entertained a doubt on
had been near the Right Hon. Member', hand at the time he the statement, to fully enter with him on the consideration of
was about to write those letters, for he would most certainly the matter.--( Hear, hear.) Now, setting aside the
have refused him the pen.— (Laughter. ) The Hon, Member question of the lett rs by which, he repeated, he was pre.
having read the petition, said he did not think that that docu- pared to stand, he should declare that he had a preliminary
ment deserved the name that had been applied to it by the objection to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman, Mr. Dun-
Right lion. Gentleman. It complained of a monopoly of the combo. He had a strong objection to any interference by
suffrage—a monopoly of religion.—(Laughter.) Was there that House with the exclusive prerogative of the Crown. No
not a monopoly of religion? If his Honourable Friend, the doubt the House had a right to advise her Majesty, through
Member for Birmingham, was present, he would say there was her Ministers, as regarded the exercise of that prerogative ;
a monopoly in that. He much regretted the absence of his but certainly discretion should impose a restraint in such
Hon. Friend Captain Rous, fur he had promised to vete for the cases that they should not overlook or disregard. He ad-
release of those prisoners, and he had written a letter to that mitted that there were some prerogatives veste in the Crown,
effect, in answer to an application meat numerously and re- in the exercise of which Ministers would be much to blame
spectably signed by the people of Westminster. lie (Mr. if they did not seek the advice of that House—such as
Duncombe) would read that letter. It was as follows :—" It matters connected with the command of the army, and other
will give me great pleasure to vote for the release of Frost, important branches, in regard to which the House should be
Williams, and Jones, and I am sure that they are more likely most chary. It was through no superstitious feeling for the
to receive a pardon from Sir R. keel's Government than birth of a Prince of Wales that the royal prerogative was
from any other Ministry." He (the Hon. Member for Fins- prayed to be exercised; but the reason was obvious, for it
bury) was of that opinion also. He was sure that they would have never was exercised save at the advice and by the recommends-
a greater chance of pardon through the instrumentality of the tion of these with whom the responsibility of the safety of the
Right lion. Baronet than through any other Minister. He community rested.—( Hear, hear.) It was a solemn and
was sure that Sir F. Pollock's conduct towards these men was awful duty to be charged with the trust of the public peace ;
above all praise, and so certain was he at the time that the to preserve peace and order to society and property, and at
prisoners were under the sentence of death, that that sentence the same time to do so with the smallest infliction of suffering
would be carried into execution, that he went and took leave compatible with the attainment of the great end and object.—
of them in their prison.—( Hear, hear.) It had been ( Hear, hear.) Now, his view of the question was this—he
said that it was never the intention of the Go- conceived that the prerogative of mercy was less likely to be
tenement of that day that those men should be abused when exerted in conformity with the advice of those
hanged, but if that had been the case would that Hon. and whose high and impOrtant duty it was to watch over the public
Learned Gentleman have paid them such a visit ? Supposing security and the public peace, than if it depended upon the
the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork had been tried for birth of a Prince or Princess Royal.—( Hear, hear, and a
High Treason and convicted—and it had been said in that laugh.) But if once the precedent of an abuse of that pelvis
House that he could have been tried for that offence—supposing lege were set, by that House entertaining every prayer that
then that he had, would he. not have been deprived of that might be presented by Honourable Gentlemen on behalf
appeal which, in his case, most justly set aside the verdict of their constituents, they need have no apprehension
which convicted him. If Frost, Williams, and Jones, had the of its not being largely followed up.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
power of appeal they also would have had the same issue as in Were there no scenes occurring in the country that might serve
the case of that Hon. and Learned Member. He had said, to act as warnings against the exercise of such a sympathy ?
that England, in all her rejoicings, released not one of her There were such scenes in abundance. They had the case of
political prisoners. To be sure they had done so in one case, the hypocrite who, about twelve months since, had been con-
but they were the Canadian rebels as they were termed. victed on a charge of poisoning an unfortunate woman, who was
There was a vast difference between the offence of those pri- bound to him by many ties, and in whose favour was pleaded
soners and that of Frost, Williams, and Jones. The Canadians religious character, standing, society and position, yet they had
were found in arms fighting against her Majesty's troops— petitions crowding the table, praying the exercise of the royal
many of them had committed much bloodshed, and had carried prerogative. Again, had they not learned and pious dignitaries
their arms for some time through that country; but the unfor- interfering for an unhappy woman, and representing her as an
tunate prisoners in whose behalf I appeal to you had no such excellent woman, one who would be most invaluable in the
intention, nor indeed had their offence given such colonies, as a teacher of morality, a woman, in fact, perfect in
an indication, yet how great has not been their punishment. all the cardinal virtues, save that she mixed a quantity of arsenic
All he would ask was, that the case of Frost, Williams, and in her father's breakfast one morning?—( Hear, hear, and
Jones, should be taken into consideration in proportion as it laughter.) Now if the House interfered in these matters, every
should be found that they had the public voice, the public Hon. Gentleman would be constrained and required to present
sympathy, and the public wishes with them. He thought he petitions, praying the clemency of the Crown on behalf of the
had given sufficient proof that this was the fact, and if he had most serious offenders; so that it was absolutely necessary to
then he would say he sincerely hoped that the Right Hon. make a stand on the present occasion. As regarded the
Baronet would give his moat serious attention to the subject. clemency of the Crown, he would much rather entrust
lie (Mr. Puneombe) would not say one word more beyond it in the hands of the worst Ministry, than to
this, that he would add his most ardent prayer to that of the the best House of Commons. There was a plain
petitioners, and he would now conclude by saying that he course before them; and while they had a Minister in whom
would beg leave to move that an humble address from this they could confide, and in whom they did not declare their
Home be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty want of confidence, it was their plain duty and evident wisdom
would be graciously pleased to consider the prayer of the yeti- to leave the question in his hands; and as far as he was concerned
tion he had presented in favour of the restoret ion of Frost, he could not contemplate why the present measure should meet
Williams, and Jones, to their native land, their families sine with support. If he should be at all influenced to interfere in
friends. such cases, it would be in the event of such severities being
Sir J. GRAN AM said he should be extremely sorry indeed practised, as were exercised in the reign of James 11. Some such
that, in resisting this motion, one word should fall from him case as that would make the blood boil ; but was the present
characterised by acrimony or ill feeling.—( Hear, hear.) He that description of offence ?—( Hear.) What were the circuits-
entirely agreed with the Noble Member opposite that they stances? Three fellows assemble together four thousand or
should approach.the censileration of this question coolly and five thousand men, armed—some of them with guns, scythes,
dispassionately, and without the slightest regard to party or pikes, and other deadly weapons. They march at midnight,
political differenedli.—(Hear, hear.) On that ground he (Sir attack a house, fire on the Queen's troops, and wound one of
J. Graham) regretted that the Hon. Member should have her Majesty's justices of the peace while in the discharge of his
deemed, it necessary, in support of nis argument, to have thrown duty—and wound him badly also.—(" Not badly," from an
into the balance other cases of a somewhat similar description, lion. Member.) Unless his (the Right Hon. Gentleman's)
that had been regarded more or less favourably. He was ready recollection served him badly, Sir Thomas Williams was badly
to admit that the number of petitions which had been presented wounded on the occasion.—( Hear, hear ) Now what was the
to the House upon this subject were very large.—(Hear, hear.) object of the movement? Was it not intended to have been
lie would admit also, that the memorial to her Majesty, which general ?—( Hear.) It had been proved in evidence that the
was presented last year, in favour of Frost, Williams, and Jones, object was to excite to a general rising ; and he should assert
was signed by a very large portion of the working classes. that the language of Chief—Justice Tindal on the occasion was
He was also bound to say that the course which the Govern- by no means too strong or too severe. Let them imagine
ment had taken with reference to those convicts, was the the fearful struggle that might have ensued between the two
result of representations made upon the most mature considers- parties which the outbreak would of necessity call up ; no man
tion of all the circumstances of this peculiar case. He did not that they had ever read or heard of could convey to them an
deny the competency or the right of parties to interfere for a adequate notion of its ferocity. The wars of the White and
remission of ti is sentence, but he would say that in ail cases of Red Roses, or of the Cavaliers and Roundheads, would bear no
such interference, or remission of sentence, they should be comparison with the scenes that might and would result from
tempered with discretion ; such interference or remission that awful outbreak were it not so speedily crushed.—( Hear,
should not be lightly undertakes', and the line of demarkation hear.) All that the imagination could conceive could not
marked out should be strictly observed. In all cases where came up- to the reality ; and a shock would have been pro-
this wise and benevolent prerogative was exercised, all the duced, certain to be felt, not alone throughout England, but
facts of the ease should be carefully considered and well throughout the universal world, the consequences of which
weighed by the responsible agent of the Government. In the would in ages to come be deplored by their children and their
present case he would not shrink from that responsibility.— childrens' children.—( Hear, hear.) Such were the objects
( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member in his speech had described which the unfortunate men had in view on whose behalf the
those convicts as misguided and unfortunate men. That they House was then solicited to interfere ; but would
were misguided he fully concurred with the Hon. Member, for the House treat the case leniently ? Before it did so it should
they were acting under the directions of those who should have first inquire what the motives were that impelled the unfortu-
given them better advice ; but that they were unfortunate he nate men to act as they had done. Was their motive a trifling
denied, because their lives had been spared. Taking into con- one ? Quite the reverse.--( Hear, hear.) The crime was one
sideration the crimes of which they had been convicted, which that included all other crimes against society. He spoke not
were liable to the punishment of death, he did con- then of the unhappy multitude engaged in the outrage, but of
cider that they were fortunate in not having the the ringleaders, to whom severity should be practised. The
full sentence of the law carried out, but to have motive of Frost no doubt was success, and the hope of changing
visited their crimes with a less punishment than that his position from a linendeaper to the protectorship
which they were now undergoing, would, he conceived, of the kingdom—the leading Member of the Committee of
have been a highly dangerous ' course to pursue. That the public safety, a second Robespierre, possessing boundless means
feelings in favour of the remission of their sentence was strung of gratifying his love of distinction and flattery of the highest
and general, he admitted, but he did not agree with the Hon. degree—that was the motive which he believed impelled him.
Member, that the feeling was universal. But he begged to —( Hear and a laugh). Now, was it possible that that House
tell the Honourable Member that there was a large body of could think of awarding less punishment to the men convicted
persons in Wales who entertained the opinion, that the sentence of high treason, and of the intention to subvert society, than
was humane, and should not be remitted. Her Majesty's would be awarded a mere clerk for the robbery of his em-
Government entertained the same opinion, and they had the ployer's till , or a slaopman for the abstraction of a few yards of
fullest reliance that justice had been done. The Honourable ribbons ?—( Hear, hear.) It was impossible that there could
Member had stated that this conviction was not a legal one, be an end of crime, under the existence of such temptation.
and he also stated very clearly and accurately the point of law unless the punishment bore some proportion to the crime com-
which had been raised in favour of the convicts at the Special mitted. The Canadian rebels had been instanced; but there
Commission. But it should be remembered, that though the was no analogy between the cases, for as regarded them, the
parties had been accused of high treason, every ad- ringleaders were hanged, and then an amnesty granted ;
vantage had been afforded them, such as getting whereas, in the present case the ringleaders
lists of witnesses, copies of the indictments, had not been hanged, whilst an amnesty had
&c., &c. It was well known that preceding the trial the also been granted. (Hear hear.) He was not
prisoners were anxious to have copies of the' indictments as about to trouble the House further, as he conceived he had said
soon as possible after the bills had been found by the grand sufficient in vindication of what he had set out with. He ap-
jury. The Solicitor-General,
eieners to do n, and accordingly al, whsoappeaareeedodn
on behalf
they hadand h
halfof the provede thetorfus te dthe House would part taltenbyweßid not interfere
ghtHon.Ge
to wrestntlemeufrom
opposite,
tChrooswencOpwieas five was
eqvuealnays before the last day for granting them, the Crown the exercise of a great and high prerogative.—
and they also had the lists of the witnesses within the limited (Hear, hear. )
period. In reference to this subject, the point raised at the Mr. DISRAELI said he was very glad that the Hon.
trial was, that the delivery of the copies of the indictments and Gentleman, who had just sat down, had vindicated his letters.
the lists of witnesses were not simultaneous—that was the I t was always to him (Mr D.), as also, he felt, to the House
point that had been reserved. The Hon. Member had said, agreeable to listen to; the Honourable Gentleman vindicate
that there should be a right of appeal in criminal cases as well these celebrated letters, which produced an effect at
as in cases which he had instanced. Now he (Sir J. Gra- the time not yet quite forgotten. He wished other
ham) should say that in reference to this point, he never How:nimble Gentlemen, filling as eminent a position
would hold cut, the expectation that there should be an as the Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh, would rise and
appeal such as he alluded to in cases of this description. Now vindicate other letters which had very much influence on
whit was the opinion arrived at by the fifteen Judges in re- public opinion. He believed if they followed that example
Terence to the Flint reserved? It was this—nine out of the the present debate would be able to stand comparison with any
fifteen were of opinion that if the objection had been taken that on previous occasions had occupied their attention. He
been so taken, the only result that would years not refrain from stating that many
the
whichon e
occasion
as
entire of the fifteen judges were unanimously of opinion that if reluctance ; but he could
at the right time it wouhl have been a valid objection, but the begged to assure the House that he trespassed on iitonwihthe
voted
dt
enalvqinudeiseatiotend.
byHheishadnot the
the smallest
came off in that House
follow would be a postponement of the trial.—( Hear, hear.) minorities that ever.
I..ou:son
lie should now repeat his observation, that, considering all the subject;
the objection had
to refrain from coming forward to ex-
advantageous circumstances under which the prisoners were in favour of
tried, and the fact that the extreme sentence of the law had moral courage
t
not been carried out against them, they had been most forte- press an opinion .
ago h e
tMr.i
whichenDisraeli)
he i ted:then
identical
vote.He,
however, thought it was impossible to put out of view the
nate in the result. He now came to the next point made by
the Urn. Member namely, that this offence should have been crime of which the prisoners had been convicted—it was a l
merely as a moral demonstration in favour of crime that included all others.—( Hear, hear.) He was bound
considered a tininhoeripyre,s
Chartism. also to say, that he had ever considered the sentence to which
Mr. DUNCOMBE begged to explain what he had stated they had been subjected was as lenient as any sentence could be
was, that a number of people came down from the hills, for the under the circumstances.—( Hear, hear.) It might be well
a moral demonstration.
purpose of making %id that, in a case where the crime was so awful and the sen-
Sir J. GRAHAM said he understood the Hon. Member tence so lenient, it was not the duty of that House to come
to say, that it was to make a moral demonstration. Now this forward on the present as on previous occasions. It would be
compelled him ( Sir J. Graham) to call the recollection of the very difficult to meet an objection which found sympathy in
House to the factS of the transaction, as they were elicited at every breast ; but they should consider the circumstances under
the trial, and he would tell them that he entirely concurred which all human transactions occurred. On the previous oc-
in the decision arrived at by the jury. It would be remern- casion, being the only Tory Member that voted in the minority,
bored that at this period, in the mining districts of South he could not forget that they lived in a period of great political
Wales, great distress prevailed, wages were low, the excitement, and that a system called "agitation" existed
prices of provisions were high, and general disaffection ap- for several years, by which men became Ministers,
peered to have been spreading, and it was under those
oiroom_
parties had been transferred, and Administrations raised to
stances those parties were exercising great influence upon the power, the members of which previously held seats at opposite
workin e classes. It had been arranged that Frost, Williams, sides of the House, whether Secretaries of State or not he
and Jones, acting in concert with others, were to divide them- was not going to say.—(Laughter.) That that report had
selves into three different parties, each beaded by one of those, i been very prevalent, and that there existed a loose and de-
and each party eras to make a descent upon the town of .New- bauched state of public feeling in the minds of ignorant and

inexperienced persons, induced by the great example set them, man as inviting violent discussion, but he understood him, that
weieh had made' some men Ministers, and other men in the ( in opposing the motion now, it did not shut the door of mercy,
sister country, more powerful than Ministers, could not be de- or do away with hope as to hereafter.—( Hear, hear.) On this
nied • and, doubtless, it teas influenced by such example that ground I e (Mr. Aglionby) did net wish the motion pressed to
led ;hese men to play' the part they did. Therefore, he a division, but the question was placed on different grounds
thought they should net decide on the conduct of these men now; the country would read with regret the speech of the
without reference to the circumstances. He would not think Hon. and Learned Member for Bute (Mr. Wortley), as the
it right to tell them they had waged war against the Queen's question was now raised not on minute points of evidence, or
troops, for such was most inexcusable conduct. Neither would the strict rule, of justice, but on' that of general policy. The
he tell them the) had excited passions, and held out expec- country was perfectly quiet now, but a strong feeling existed
tations which were illegitimate ; but which, had among the population on this subject which ought not to be
they succeede 1, would cease o be so.—(Hear,' hear.) neglected. The partlhs for whom meecy was now solicited
Although their crime was great, and the judgment on them had suffered for the last six years punishment of the
lenient, still. when it was brought before the House before. hq severest character; and, if' Ire was correctly informed, their
had felt it his duty to record his vote in their favour. Had conduct in the colony had beenesuch, as to lead them to a re-
any circumstances occurred since to change his opinion? laxation in their favour. In facts their conduct was stated to
The lion. and Learned Member was certainly very happy in be excellent. Their release, therefore, would not at all inter-
all his flights of eloquence, but never more happy than when fere with the public peace. In conclusion, he must say the
he illustrated his arguments. He said, "Look at this case— Hon. Member for Finsbury was placed in a difficult position
look at the morbid and effeminate sympathy it stirs up in the now, after the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member who
public mind; it was this sympathy that said that a murderess last addressed the House, though he (Mr. Aglionby) confessed
must be sent to the colonies of this country." It was this that, in the first instance; he should have taken the advice of
sending to the colonies that influenced him in the course he the Right Hon. Baronet, and not press the matter further at
had taken. It had been said that there had been a great insur- present.
rection, and that the parties raising it were traitors ; but they Sir R. H. INGLIS said that the Hon. Member for Bute
were not only not punished, but were rewarded for their crimes. had represented the speech of the Hon.. Member for Shrews-
He did not wish the people of England to feel (although he bury as full of acrimony and bitter feeling, and with that
did not want to do otherwise than palliate the punishment of statement he dismissed it. But to that he ( Sit R. H. highs)
the sufferers)—he did not want them to feel the difference would venture to say, there was no expression in it of party
between colonial and native punishment. He was so far an feeling.—(lronical cries of s' Hear, hear.") He repeated the
advocate of native industry that he did not wish the people to expression that such was the fact. The Hon. Member for
feel any exception in this instance. —(Loud laughter.) Shrewsbury went no further than this, that the light which led
It was this system that made Frost a slave, and astray was light from some other place, if not from Heaven ; and
Papineau a Member of the House of Assembly. The that, after what had been done in the North American Oise.
Hon. Member appealed to the House to turn to the reign Ines, some consideration might be paid to the parties on .
of James 11., which they would find replete with instances whose behalf was now sot get the exercise of mercy.—( Cries
parallel to the present case. That would be an interference of ~ Hear.") Would agcy one deny that the traitors of Canada
with circumstances on which they were not called upon to de- were deserving of more consideration than these unhappy men?
ride. Here her Majesty's troops were fired upon ;he might The man who had saved Canada—Sir Francis Head—succes.
ask were not her Majesty's troops fired upon in Canada ? He sive Governments had neglected, while the men who had sup-
should like to have from the Right Hon. Baronet the return of ported Papineau had been honoured. No man was more
the magistrates that had been wounded in Canada. When the deeply persuaded than he (Sir R. Inglis) was of the guilt of
Hon. Member appealed to the reign of James 11. as the model the three persons, whose case was then under consideration.
reign for treason and sedition, was not the blood of Sedgemore He had never voted for them before and be should not vote
as costly as the blood spilt in the town of Newport ?—and was for them now. He had been pleased with the speech of the
the House to be appealed to to show no mercy because there Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Depart-
was in the reign of James He a rebellion in which they suffered ment, until the last part of it, which certainly did not satisfy
greater evils than in the late disturbances ? He could not deny him. It seemed to him to hold out an encouragement for the
that the observations of the Hon. Member were always inte- repetition of this motion. He (Sir It. Inglis) hoped the
resting to listen to, but they had no valid arguments against the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw the motion, but if he did
motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury. One of the most net, he trusted that it would be rejected by a large majority.
remarkable arguments of the Hon. Gentleman was, when he Mr. WAKLEY could not see how the Hon. Baronet was
told them that they were bound to support the Crown in the to be satisfied. He had commenced his speech by complaining
exercise of the prerogatives at present in question, because it of the tone of the Hon. Member for Bute (Mi. S. Wortley)
was necessary, under all the circumstances, that they should not and he (Mr. Wakley) therefore thought that the Hon. Ba-
question the conduct of her Majesty's advisers, but look at the ronet, overflowing with the milk of human kindness, was
position of the Government. The Crown must not be questioned about to support the motion. But the Hon. Baronet went on
because it receives advice from an individual who has told us in hes criticism, and came to a review of two speeches. one
that in the present case he takes a peculiar responsibility. He that of the Right Hen. Gentleman the Home Secretary, and
(Ms. Disraeli) would ask if the Government possessed the the other, the speech of the Right Hon. MembeM'or Edin-
confidence of that House, although it was supported by 112 burgh. Both speeches pleassel him, with the exception of one
gentlemen—the regenerators of this country by their portion ; and what nortion was that? • Why the one indica-
change of opinion. The Crown in the exercise of its perogative t ion of a merciful mei humane feeling on the part of the Right
was advised by a Minister, and to support these perogatives Hon. Baronet. Was that the position which the represent-
the House must also support the Minister who advised the ative of the Church of England ought to assume in that
Crown. The House bound to consider whether that House? He (Mr. Wakley) was most astonished and'eon•
Minister possessed the confidence of Parliament, and whether founded at the spectacle he had witnessed. He had supposed
in a week hence he might not consider it necessary that the that the Hon. Baronet would be the first to advocate the
exercise of prerogative should be of a far different bature from merciful motion which had been made, but he was mistaken.
the one then in question, and that it should be exercised in that Now he would rejoice if he could bring back the-feeling of the
House, because another Minister might be ready to accept the ifouse to the impression which was'created by the conclusion of
responsibility of office. The Right Honourable Baronet, the the speech of the Bight Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary. He
Home secretary, had commenced his speech in what he (Mr. ( Mr. Wakley) was at the time sitting by the side of his Hon.
Disraeli) considered to he his right position. Whatever Colleague, and he then remarked to him that he
might be his (Mr. Disraeli's) opinion on the main question, he feared subsequent discussion. He literally feared
could have no doubt that the Minister of the Crown was to What would transpire during this debate. The Right Hon.
come forward and dilate en the enormity of crime, and also re- Gentleman wanted a vote of that House to justify him in,
mark that the prerogatives of the Crown should be delicately keeping. Frost and his companions exeatriated. It was
exercised. Nothing could be more just and politic absurd to talk of the perogative of the Crown—it was, in
than the position the Right Honourable Baronet as- fact, an appeal to the discretion of the Minister. It was the act
sumed and then dwelt upon. He (Mr. Disraeli) knew of the Minister—and the Home Minister. He considered that
that a grave feeling prevailed amongst those around him with- the Right Hoe. Gentleman had made a fair speech. There
out conversing with them. It was difficult to answer the ques. was nothing to complain of either in its tone or
tion put by the Right Hon. Baronet. It was a matter of temper. It was what they might expect from
surprise that her Majesty's Government had a fixed set of a Secretary for the Home Department. The Right Hon.
opinions. The Right Hon. Baronet placed himself in a clear Baronet was placed in a situation of great responsibility. He
position, both in point of constitutional feeling, and he hoped had in a great measure the conservation of. the country under
he might say. in loyal sentiment of feeling, and yet at the last his especial control. It would be a very great exercise of
he says—" Press me," (looking at the Hon. Member for Fins- discretion on the part of the Home Secretary to recommend
bury as if he (Mr. Duncombe) had discovered that he was of that persons charged with such offences and found guilty should
a squeezable nature ), "to bring forward this question be liberated and restored to their country. His Hon. Friend
on another occasion —in another session perhaps had taken special care not to go into the merits of the question.
in another Parliament, and I will treat you in a His Hon. Friend deprecated such offences as those of which the
liberal manner ; at present, I wish that the exercise of parties had been found guilty, He spoke of them as cases of
mercy should be delicately arid discreetly used. Press the the worst character, and he reminded the House that out of a
Crown and Ministry then. But although crime is enormous, million of the petitioners who had addressed the House on the
the exercise of mercy may be necessary, and this House will subject, none of them attempted to justify the conduct of
be the last to interfere with it. Bring forward the motion, Frost and his companions, but the millions of petitioners were
then ; and although we cannot be in a majority now, we shall of ()Pinion that if the prisoners had been in a higher station
know what to say to them." He (Mr. Disraeli) had voted for of life, and had had money at their disposal, and bad
these men years ago, and, whatever might be the opinion now, carried their case to another House, they would never have
he would not desert them. They had committed a been transported.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.) lie was only speak-
, great crime and had received a lenient punishment. The ing of what was the opinion of the petitioners, and what was
Government had only two courses—these men should the impression which universally prevailed. They all knew
be pardoned, or they should be punished as an example what was the decision upon technical grounds, which was come
to society. If they were pardoned, it would be an encourage-
to about four years ago in another place. What was the state
ment to others to feel that though they might be criminal the of the country now ? Was there sedition abroad ? Were
dsvine faculty of mercy was still exercised in this country. there any signs of rebellion—was there discontent to any great
Sir J. Graham had said " Bring forward the motion again and extent? No nothing of the sort ; but if there were public
Ido not say that we will resist your aeal." What would be commotion, and public agitation and discontent, all of them
the result of that ? It would be that,pp if these men were par- would immediately say, " Why you are absolutely encouraging
doped by the remission of their punishment, one of the rebellion by calling back these men." This then in his opinion
dearest qualities of the Crown, a quality attributed only to was th a period for the Crown to exercise—or rather
Majesty, would be exercised at a late period ; but would the for the Right Hon. Gentleman to exercise— his
people feel gratitude to the Crown ? No, they would discretion. The speeches however he had heard this night had
only comment on the timidity of Government. For thrown new difficulties in the way, and he found in that House
these reasons he would support the Honourable Member. the bitterest enemies of Frost, Jones and Williams. Did Hon.
if he persisted in coming to a division. He however proposed Gentlemen recollect that the Worthing people had no repro-
that he should be satisfied with bringing the question forward sentatives in that House ? That was a fact they never would
to public attention and sympathy. The Crown might be in- remember. Millions were asking for the liberation of three
duced to view with mercy the conduct of these misguided men. men whom they believed had been unlawfully transported.
If, however, the Hon. Member pressed to a division, he (Mr. Well then, he asked, was there never to be any concession to
Disraeli) should vote with him. popular feeling in that House? Were they always resolved to
treat the etitions of the people with indifference, contempt,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he was sorry that he had been
misunderstood. The House would remember, that he had and scorn? ln his opinion they were absolutely en-
misunderstood.deprecated any interference with the execution of the sentence, danger,ng the existence of the constitution and the
and said, that the exercise of the prerogative of the Crown country by such a course of proceeding. The Home
ought, in his opinion, to be dispensed with ; but at the same Secretary was now relieved from his responsibility by
time, ho would not be responsible for any advice to her Ma- the speeches of the Hon, Faronet the Member for
jesty, nor would he presume to attempt to place any limit to Oxford, the Hon. and Learned Member for Bute, and the
the prerogative of mercy. Right Hon, Member for Edinburgh. He (Mr. Wakley)
Mr. S.WORTLEY said that the Hon. Member had told felt that it would be no advantage to prolong this discussion,
them, that some years ago he had voted on this question in and he therefore resumed his seat by imploring the Right Hon,
favour of these men, He (Mr. S. Wortley) was net surprised Baronet the Secretary for the Home Deportment, not to care
at the course now taken by the Hen. Member, in giving the (see straw for what Hon. Gentlemen had said, who were de-
same vote. He doubted, however, whether the House would sirous of excluding from the country these unfortunate men.
be swayed by the reasons which seemed to influence the Hon. He called them unfortunate, for he considered all unfortu.
Member's mind. He could not think the House would feel it nate. He begged him again to consider the case, with re-
was just to the parties whose case was under consideration, to ference to the legal objection that was taken on the trial, and
introduce into this discussion the party feelings of common maintain the principle, that whenever a doubt existed, the
debate and remarks of a personal tendency. He could not benefit of that doubt should be given to the accused.
help thinking that it was unhappy when any Hon. Mr. G. W. HOPE said the Hon. Baronet, the Member
Member, on light grounds, thought it necessary to bring for- for Oxford, had stated that the persons convicted of rebellion
ward a motion to interfere with the prerogatives of many. The in Canada had been permitted tc icrive honours by the Govern-
Hon. Member would find that the motion had been considered ment of the country. Now ' e assured his Hon. Friend
with the greatest respect by those who were opposed to it, but that such was not the case. No persons convicted of being
it would very little advance his case if there was a feeling on the engaged in that rebellion had beenemployed at all. The lead-
part of the people—(Hear, hear)—for the remission of ing persons connected with that rebellion had undoubtedly
this sentence: He could not conceive a more unfortunate in- been allowed to return to their native country. They returned
terruption to the course of that feeling than the course under no special pardon of the Crown, they returned under a
now pressed, because by removing .the atrocity of the crimes flaw in the mode of proceeding, by which the conviction was
these persons had committed, it interfered with the prerogative held not to be available against them. There was no pardon,
of mercy, and rendered it still more difficult to be exercised therefore, asked for, and of course no pardon was granted.
in this case. With regard to the representations made by the Lord JOHN MANNERS thought there was an erroneous
Hon. Member as to the state of public feeling on this subject, impression abroad, that the opinions of the unfranchised were
he (Mr. S. Wortley) begged leave to differ from him. He treated with contempt by that House; but he was sure that
believed that at this moment, if the Crown were to exercise th t various arguments which had been used, and the speeches
the prerogative of mercy towards these persous, it could hardly wnich had been spoken on that occasion, would convince people
take a step more calculated to shock public opinion. He would fur- out of doors that there was no indisposition on the part of
Cher say, that to remit the sentence of these persons would be an Parliament to listen personally to the representations of those
act of gross injustice to many other minor criminals whose crimes classes. His chief object in rising, however, was to express
had been committed under circumstances far more deserving of his regret at a considerable portion of the able and eloquent
mercy, but who had not received it. What was the nature of speech of the Hon. Member for Edinburgh. He (Lord J.
the crime that had been committed ? The Hon. Member MadllErs) did not know whether it arose from a peculiar
spoke of it as a tumult, but it was prepared for a week before. orga ;tuition of his own mind ; but he had au impression that
Would they take the case of Frost, whose position had enabled a re.erence to historical facts tended to promote the principles
him to exercise a great influence over the people? The House of Chartism rather than to militate against them. But the
had heard from the Hon. Member for Coventry what was the Hon. Member for the city of Edinburgh, after eloquently
state of that part of Wales where Frost resided? The Hon. denouncing the crime of which these unfortunate men
Member had spoken of the act as the exercise of a had been found guilty, proceeded to say, that it fell
particular right.—(Hear, hear.) Were they convinced that very little short of the crimes committed against
these personswere under the belief that they exercised a particular the State in past ages. The comparison, however, in
right—that they were under the impression that their right his opinion was decidedly too severe, and certainly the crime
was interfered with by law? Thistlewood had some such which these unfortunate men had committed would. by no
motive, and he struck at once at the highest apparent cause of means justify such a punishment as hieing hanged, drawn, and
the evil ; but the persons in his case were aware of the pur- quartered, which was the punishment inflicted upon offenders
pose for which they were led. It was proved that Frost led against the state in times gone by.
his men to invest the town, and attack the military regardless Mr. NI ACAULAY explained that he never thought of con-
of the misery he inflicted on the townspeople. What was the veying to the House the impression that he was favourable to
charge given to the jury by the Lord Chief Justice ? lie such a mode of punishment.
asked the jury, did they believe that the prisoner had Lord J. MANNERS continued—At all events, the Right
an innocent intention, or a guilty intention? did he Hon. Gentleman drew no distinction between the offence of
intend to resist the Queen's troops, and sacrifice the lives of Mr. Frost and that of state criminals of a former age. That
his fellow subjects ? What was the answer of the jury ? He House, last year, voted a sum of money as a tribute to
recollected the suggestion of his Learned Friend, and the ob- the memory of Hampden. Now, what did Hemp-
servation of the Lord Chief Justice in passing sentence. The 'len do ? Why, that gentleman, like Mr.. Frost,
Secretary for the Home Department had referred to that trial, levied war against the constituted authorities of the country.
and he (Mr. S. Wortley) would also revert to it. The point Many people said Hampden 's cause VMS a perfectly legitimate
left to the jury for their consideration was whether one, but that was a question of opinion. There were many
the intention was innocent, and whether they believed who thought Mr. Frost's case a perfectly legitimate one. He
that only a harmless demonstration was intended, would go further than even many Gentlemen in that House,
or that the intention was guilty from the first. who were prepared to vote money towards erecting a statute to
The Lord Chief Justice declared that the verdict met with his Oliver Cromwell—(Cheers)d—for the purpose of encouraging
entire concurrence; that his learned brethren, along with him- the efforts of future generations.—(Cheers.) Now, he pro-
self, . were all of the same opinion.—( Hear, hear.) It was tested against this system of palliating the conduct of regicides
clearly proved that Mr. Frost came into Newport at the head in one age, and dealing harshly with the conduces)f those
of many thousands with dangerous weapons, in order to take who excited rebellion in another—it was a dangerous and fatal
possession of the town, preliminary to a general insurrection policy, a policy to which be could never lend himself. He
throughout the country. (The Hon. Member here read an was prepared to oppose any such proposition as that
extract from the evidence of one of the principal witnesses to which he bad alluded, and in all consistency he was
examined on the trial, to, the effect that the object was to ex- justified in not voting for the proposition of the Honourable
tend the insurrection all over England.) He (Mr. Wortley) Member for Finsbury.—( Hear, bear).
believed that the disturbances in the north of England were Sir R. PEEL said that nothing more than the speech of his
intimately connected with this movement of Mr. Frost. He Hon. Friend behind him had tended to confirm his impression
doubted if the outbreak in Yorkshire, especially that in of the fatal consequences which must result from a discussion,
Sheffield, would have taken place, had it not been for the in a popular assembly like that House, of the policy shown in
proceedings at Newport. So strong was the opinion, of not the exercise of the prerogatives of the Crown. The Hon
only the Noble Lord then at the head of the Home Depart- Member for Finsbury had declared that there was a strong ins-
ment, as well as Lord Melbourne, of the extreme attrocity of pression among millions of their fellow-subjects that the sen-
the acts of the leaders in this insurrection, that they were most tence passed upon Mr. Frost was illegal, and had that party
unwilling to remit the sentence of death, which was the usual been possessed of wealth, it would have enabled him to appeal
course in extreme crimes, when the Judges were divided in to the House of Lords, who would have overruled it. But
opinion, as they were in the present case, on the point raised surely if there were a question about the legality of the sen-
on behalf of the prisoners after the trial at Monmouth. It was tence, that House was not the proper tribunal to decide it,
only, when strongly pressed that they yielded. This was the But the Crown had taken every opportunity of obtaining the
case in which the House was calleduponto solicit the Crown for best legal advice upon this point, and certainly there was
the exercise of clemency and mercy.—(Hear, hear.) This nothing on the ground of informality in the proceedings to
case, in his opinion, was not one calling for any especial in- justify a remission of the punishment. But, said the Hon.
terference, which was only to be exercised in extreme cases. Gentleman, is there to be no concession to popular feeling?
It was not justifiable in the present instance, for the objection Most certainly not, in a case of this kind, where the popular
raised on behalf of the prisoners, and on which the Judges were opinion was altogether erroneous. If that impression was an
divided, now brought forward as an argument for the exercise of improper one, or was decidedly unjust, that House ought to
mercy, was purely of a technical character. It arose out of the resist it, whatever might be the number of persons who pre-
too great indulgence of the Crown. Mr elaule, on being strongly sented petitions in its favour. Tke question then for them to
pressed for a copy of the indictment, in order to enable the consider was this, namely, was this popular impression a
defence of the prisoners to be not up, haying supplied it four correct one or not? For his part he was decidedly
days sooner then he was required by law. They took advantage of opinion that it was incorrect. He was net
of the hurried manner in which the indictment had been got founding that opinion upon any impression of his, own
up, and raised the technical objection to which he had referred. but upon the decision of the highest legal authority. The
Yet, on this point, the prisoners had counsel of the first legal whole of the 15 Judges had considered this question, and had
ability, and the case was argued before the fifteen Judges, decided against it. The judgment had been delivered by a
where every consideration and attention was paid to it; yet the man who, of all others, was the moat forbearingandthaedmvaonst
majority of the Judges decided against the objection. If so, disposed to give a prisoner the benefit of any doubt or
on what grounds could she now remit the sentence ? These par- tees, in his favour—he meant Lord Chief Justice Tindal—and,
ties had been guilty of an offence te.the gravestnature, the punish- in fact, the whole of the 15 judges were:influenced by a sincere
The de
ment for which was the loss of life, and but for the technical error desire to give the prisoners every edvtnantage.
the informality Judgesof the
had referred to would have been visited with the extreme cided against the allegation relating.
nut only decided upon this point they went
penalty of the law. If, on any future occasion, any cause delivery-
should be made out fur the exercise of mercy, God forbid that further, anidinctotrihs?tylered ownha' t the effect would have been had
the House should stand in the way ; but lie must say that on the informality of the delivery been taken at the proper time.
the present occasion, and in the case under consideration, there I Now, what woulde have been the effect, in point of lays, of the
were no grounds for any special interference now.—(hear.) objection, urged had it been taken at the proper time? Would
Mr. A GLIONBY express, d his sorrow at the speech which it have been the remission of the
ye r sentence,itlhaavet t
hobera woulddcr
othweni t
mehffi have
the delivery of the prisoners from all punishment?
had just been delivered by the Hon. and Learned Member. 1
trial,w ou 1 d
in m enrredl
He (Mr. Aglionby) had wished that the Hon. Member for I Notn et
postponing
Finsbury, after the speech from the Right Hon. Baronet !of thelt
( Sir .1. Graham), had left the question in the bands of the ' have. an opportunitytheof correctingmight notices according to law. But the Judges
yet be opened for the exercise of mercy; but after hearing . decided that the conviction was, upon the whole, a perfectly
the last speech, he (Mr. Aglionby) confessed the Honourable , good one, and therefore the Crown had a perfect right to carry
Member for Finsbury had a difficult course to pursue. it into effect. k
i`dow, he apprehended he was correcstating
He considered the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury must the legal decision of the Judges upon this case. This t opular
have misunderstood the speech of the Right lion. Baronet. He impression, thee, of the millions was erroneous, and it was
(Mr, Aglionby) did mot understand the Right Hon. Gentle. the province of the Howl notwithstanding the petition, which

``~,.