The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-04 00:00:00

..J-

ion, himself a resident planter, and cultivating his own
'estate in Jamaica. That Hon. Gentleman said, speak.
ing of the agricultural state of the parish of St. Andrew,
that in 1812 it contained twenty-two sugar estates, which
yielded 3,000 hogsheads of sugar at 60.000/, and with
the rum, Sce., produced altogether 175,000/. per annum;
whereas in 1847 there were only twelve estates, yielding
only five hogsheads of sugar, the entire income amount-
ing to 15,9001., showing a deficiency in the annual pro-
duction of that single parish of 159,0001. The
same gentleman went on to say, that he himself
'as a ruined man—that the estate which some years
ago gave him an income of 10,000/., did not now
produce as many pence. This was strong evidence to
show that the residents were suffering just as much as
the owners of estates residing in this country. He re-
gretted to be obliged to say that the Noble Lord at the
head of the colonial department seemed much disposed
to act the part of a dictator, and assume the power of
governing these colonies according to his own will, pay-
ing no attention to the statement of the planters or go-
vernor. He would not impute to Lord Grey, or the
-Under Secretary, that which was imputable to the office
itself, which he regarded as the worst administered of
the Government departments, owing in a great degree
to the diversity of interests concerned, the number
of our colonial possessions, and the utter impossi-
bility of any ono man, however great his talents,
'usefully and efficiently to superintend them all. He
saw no reason why there should not he a board con-
stituted for the colonies similar to the Board of Admi-
ralty. But to return to the condition of the colonies, he
found that within the last seven years there had been a
dimunition in West India exports alone of 1,069,000/.
He would not now enter into the question of free trade,
falsely so called—free imports, he would rather call it,
or unlimited encouragement to foreign manufactures.
It was said that the continuance of protection would be
a retrograde movement as regarded free trade; but he
contended that there could be no free trade without
strict reciprocity, thereby producing cheap prices and
-cheap labour. The free-trade party—the Manchester
party, he would call them— invariably argued as though
cheap prices would be an advantage; but it was of much
more importance to the labourer to have constant em-
ployment and remunerative wages, than to be enabled
to buy his sugar at a penny or twopence per pound
cheaper. Admitting the disturbing influences of the
destruction of the potato crop in 1846, a bad harvest
and the consequent mercantile depression, he was still
convinced that the longer free trade measures were
persisted in, the greater would be the difficulties
in which the country would be involved. Calico,
which a few years ago cost 12d. or 13d. a yard, was now
produced at Manchester for 2,12-d. Supposing a further
reduction to 11A., how was the manufacturer to be remu-
nerated for his capital, and at the same time give good
Wages to his labourer? At the bidding of the econo-
mists, protection had been taken away from some in-
terests; the consequence was mutual jealousy amongst
all interests, and a desire to deprive those of !protection
which still enjoyed it. He did not advocate protection
for the sake of the landed interest, the West Indians, or
the shipowners; but for the sake of supporting the sys-
tem under which this country existed, and enabling it to
yield the vast amount of taxation which it had to bear.
Already the effects of free trade had been manifest in the
revenue; and while rejoicing to hear the statement
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made in
his second budget on Friday night, he was still op-
posed to any further relaxation of protection. As to the
West Indies, sound policy and the interests of the em-
pire at large demanded that they should have a pro-
tection of 10s. for fully six years, to enable them success-
fully to struggle with the intense competition of slave-
labour. The proposition of the Government assumed
that our colonists would eventually be able to compete
rwith Cuba and Brazil, by a very slight increase of the
'existing differential duties. This was nothing more than
" letting them down easily," and their ultimate ruin
would be inevitable. He regarded these colonies as a
main source of wealth and power to this country; he
therefore objected to do anything injurious to their in-
terests, which might perhaps convert them into open
hostility, and lead to their becoming appendages of
another nation. There was a general impression in the
colonies that injustice had been done them by Parlia-
ment. How would the Government proceed if-they re-
solved on stopping the supplies? In British Guiana
they had already refused to vote the supplies for more
than three months; and if this example were acted on,
the Government might find themselves in an extremely
difficult position. The Honourable Member for
Northampton had said that there was no bargain with
the colonies at the time the Emancipation Act was
passed; but if no bargain, there had certainly been a
contract, both in 1834 and since, to the effect that the
West Indians should be protected against the slave
islands, by having a preference for their produce
in the home market. This principle had been recog-
nised over and over again by the various ministers who
had held office down to 1845, and ratified by large ma-
jorities of the House. Now it was said we could not
exclude slave-grown sugar, on account of certain treaties
with the United States and Venezuela, which admitted
their produce on the terms of the most favoured nations.
Mut why on this account throw the sugar trade into the
hands of the Cubans and the Brazilians, to whom we
owed no obligation? He admitted that those who sat on
his side of the House differed as to the amount of pro-
tection necessary; but that difference was no greater
than existed amongst the supporters of' Ministers. He
rejoiced that the question had at length been placed on
such a footing that the House must either affirm the
proposition of Government or the recommendations of
the West Indian committee; and he should have no hesi-
tation in giving his support to the later. That committee
had been fairly constituted; it consisted of men fully
competent to deal with the question; its inquiries had
been most extensive and laborious; and yet the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government treated its recom-
mendations with absolute neglect. What would the
West Indians think of such conduct as this?—(Hear.)
He for one would not vote for an additional farthing
towards the cost of sending labourers to the colonies,
convinced that such a measure would only aggravate the
distress of the colonists.
Mr. A. OSWALD said the Government had de-
parted from the Bill of 1846, and had thereby admitted
the necessity of increased protection. He (Mr. Oswald)
had voted for the Bill of 1846; but that was, owing to
his being without the information which had been sup-
plied him by the West Indian Committee.—(Hear.)
Amongst the press, metropolitan and provincial, there
was a universal chorus of dissent from the Government
plan. Was the House to sing another song? If so, it
was high time to take into consideration the proposal of
the Hon. Member for Montrose. Seeing nothing before
him but the plan of the Government and the recom-
mendation of the Committee, he was prepared fully to
support the latter, heedless of any taunt of inconsistency
that might be directed against him.—(Hear, hear.) He
feared there was too much inconsistency in that
House.— (Laughter.) He found from the Economist
newspaper that the production of the West Indies had
decreased one-half between 1834 and 1841, owing
to. the inadequate supply of labour, and the pre- '
vious unwholesome stimulus of protection. He be-
lieved the former to be the true and the sole reason.
For this injustice the House was responsible,
and must pay the price. He represented a large
constituency (Ayrshire), but did not believe that any
old woman there would like to have sugar for her tea or
her' whiskytoddy" a penny a pound cheaper, if thereby
an injustice was inflicted on others.—(Hear, hear.) He
would answer for the same feeling existing in the mind
of every man, woman, and child, engaged in manufac-
tures in the county he represented. What might be the
case at Manchester he could not say. An eminent Scot-
tish mercantile firm, whose founders had left an ample
fortune, had recently succumbed to the pressure ; and,
in the circular to their creditors they attributed their
failure to the measures of 1846.—(Hear, hear.) As to
the increase in the slave trade, no doubt could be enter-
tained by any one who looked at the return which had
been published. The Honourable Member for Man-
chester (Mr. Bright) had vainly attempted to show that
the slave trade could not have increased in 1846, in con-
sequence of the measures of 1846; but had he overlooked
the possibility of intelligence being sent out to the Ha-
vannah that the measure was likely to pass? The Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had anticipated the time
when slavery would be extinct ; but that happy period
had been anticipated long ago, even by Curran, and he
feared it was still very far distant.—(Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the proposition of the Hon. Baronet the member for
Droitwitch was to reduce the duty on colonial sugar
from 14s. to 10s., instead of 135., as proposed by the
Government, thus making a differential duty of 10s. be-
tween colonial and foreign sugar. The Hon. Baronet
proposed this duty for an indefinite time, and in the
course of his speech be anticipated the objections that
would probably be urged against his proposition on the
ground of its being detrimental to the consumer and re-
venue. On both these grounds he objected to the Hon.
Baronet's proposal. He admitted that the Government
ought to attend to the interests of the West India body;
but the interest of the great body of consumers in this
country was not to be neglected or left out of considera-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He certainly was not prepared to
support a system of protection which would permanently
increase the cost of a necessary article to the consumers
of this country for the exclusive benefit of the West
India body.—(Hear, hear.) The lion. Gentleman who
spoke last said that there was no sacrifice made by the
people of this country. That might be the opinion
of the old ladies of Ayrshire, who could pay for the sugar
that sweetened their tea and whisky toddy ; but ho
did not think it was the opinion of the bulk of the popu-
lation there. If the Hon. Gentleman referred to a
paper
which had been laid on the table of the House, he
would find that the people of this country paid in the
year 1841 no less than 3,800,0001. more for their sugar
than they would havo done if there had been no protec-
tion. In 1842 they paid 3,600,000/. more; and in 1843
they paid 3,400,000/. This, with the 20,000,000/. which
had been paid in consequence of the Act of Emancipa-
tion, was a pretty substantial proof of the sympathy of
the people of this country with the West Indian body.
He was not prepared to say that they ought not to be
put for a time in a position to enable them to compete
with slave-growing countries; but the country and the
House had decided that protection as a permanent sys-
tem should cease. As he was not prepared to ask for
that protection which he once enjoyed as a landlord, so
he was not prepared to allow a system of permanent
protection for the West Indians. The Honourable Gen-
tleman opposite had commented on Members of the
Government for remarking on the extravagant sys-
tem of management adopted by the West In-
dian planters. They had said nothing but what
had been given in evidence by those planters themselves.
He should rather think that was a source of hope, be-
cause it held out the prospect, under a more economical
system, of being able to compete with slave-growing
countries ; and he was glad to find that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Guilford was of opinion that before long free-
labour sugar would he the cheapest in the world. His
main objection to the Honourable Baronet's proposal
was on the score of the revenue. Speaking on this

subject, hepegged to assure the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman who presided over the Miscellaneous Estimates
Committ,e, who seemed to think that he had cast a slur
upon the Committee, that he never felt it would be fair
on the part of the Government to throw upon them the
responsibility of making reductions, and that they
ought to relieve the Government front the responsi-
bility of doing what they could in that respect.
The Honourable Baronet seemed to think that he reis-
represented the probable loss to the revenue in the
first instance. What he said was, that the probable loss
at first, if the proposal of the Committee were adopted,
would be 960,0001. ; and that the first loss by the
proposal of the Government would be only 240,0001.,
and that it Would be touch easier to make up the one
than the other. The loss could only be made up from
increased consumption, and the proportion in which fo-
reign and colonial sugar entered into that consumption.
The Hon. Baronet, who followed the estimates of the
Committee, estimated the consumption of the country
next year at 325,000 tans. He considered that estimate
an excess-4e had no hopes that the consumption would
reach that tiiantity. It would give an increase of con-
sumption of 35,000 tons in one year. If the Hon. Baro-
net referred to the increase of former years he would

find nothing to justify that calculation, with the excep-
tiqn of the year 1845. when there was an increase of
38,000 tons. But the Ron. Gentleman must recollect that

that was a year in which the sugar duties were largely
reduced, in which free-labour sugar was admitted, and
tLat it was a year of considerable prosperity. There was
every possible circumstance that could tend to promote
consumption in that year ; but they had no reason to
expect the same circumstances would exist next year.

loother years the increase was 17,000 tons, 12,000,
11,000, 23,000, 17,000, 29,000. The average increase
was about 20,000 tons, and was the
.high,.st amount of
consumption which they could expect. He thought the
Hon. Gentleman was mistaken with regard to the pro-
portion in which foreign and colonial sugars would enter
into consumption. The Hon. Gentleman estimated the
probable import from the West India colonies next year
at 20,000 tons ; and the report of the Committee stated
thst the stock of colonial sugar in hand was from 60 000
tons to 65,000 tons, giving a total amount of 265,000
tons of colonial sugar. Now, it must be remembered
that the holders of sugar would have every possible
inducement to enter the utmost possible amount of
sugar in the next year—that is, before July 5, 1819 ;
and as he saw no reason why they would not enter
from 240,000 to 250,000 tons of colonial sugar in the
course of the next year, leaving a stock of about 25,000
tons in hand, it was impossible to expect that anything
like the calculation of the Hon. Gentleman would be re-
ceived. He had calculated that from 300,000 to 310,000
tons would probably be entered for home consumption,
and he estimated the probable loss to the revenue at
45,000/. There might be, a gain of 40,0001., but he
would be well satisfied if the revenue from sugar was no
lower next year than it was last year. He might, in
fairness to the West Indies, reduce sugar one shilling
per cwt., but to do more would in the present state of
the finances of the country be obviously unjust. Upon
the whole, he thought he had taken a fair and reason-
able course, and he therefore must resist the Hon. Gen-

tlemau's proposal.
Mr. T. M. GIBSON, as a Member of the Committee
appointed to inquire into the alleged distress in the
colonies, was anxious to make a few observations. He
would first of all express his regret that her Majesty's
Government had thought fit to depart from the law of '
1846. He had thought that law a final question, and
he hoped that hereafter they would never have to
discuss the question, except as one of public revenue.—
( Hear, hear.) But for every word that had been said
about the revenue of the state ten had been spoken
about the revenue of private individuals. West India
distress was not a question that ought to be discussed
in a debate upon the sugar duties. The West Indian
was not the only distressed interest in this country.
Had they had no other bankruptcies—no other failures ?
—(Loud ironical cheers.) He understood that cheer,
but he was merely stating a fact.—(Renewed cheers.)
But did the commercial men of England come to that
House as the West Indian did, in forma pauperis ? The
cotton-spinners of Lancashire alone bad suffered last
year losses as great as the value of all the produce of
the West Indies. But they had, out of their capital,
maintained their labourers, and they hail not come down
there seeking relief, and crying out every night for addi-
tional protection.—(Hear.) There was a great deal, too,
about the testimony as to West Indian distress, that he
frankly owned he entirely distrusted. The parties exa-
mined by the Committee were only interested parties,
and they based all their calculations of their losses upon
very ample estimates as to the cost of their production.
"Remunerative prices !" Why, what had the land-
lords told them about the prices at which alone they
could grow corn ?—(Hear, hear.) All that sort of evi-
dence had been sufficiently disproved ; and, surely they
must allow an ample per tentage upon the evidence of
those who came before a Committee that never saw a
sugar cane at all, and told them at what
price alone they were able to produce a hundred weight
of sugar.—(Loud cheers.) Why, in the blue book
he held in his hand, he found witnesses who gave evi-
dence as to the cost of the production of sugar, which
fixed a cwt. at every conceivable price. There were men
who said they could grow sugar at 4s. a cwt. ; others
who declared they could not produce it at certain periods
under 16/. a cwt. Now, he owned to a preference for
official evidence, and he-was rather pleased to have it in
his power to quote Lord Harris. Lord Harris said that
in " therdoest managed estates "—(ironical cheers)—well,
they were not there to protect bad management—(Much
cheering)—" on the best managed estates (said Lord
Harris) planters could produce sugar at 10s. a cwt."—
(Hear, hear.) Well, that was just the amount of pro-
tection they proposed to give to the West Indians. The
suggestion from the other side; therefore, was nothing
less than to give the planters their sugar for nothing.
What they proposed was to let him have his sugar as if
he had stolen it, or as if it was given him. Why, surely
under such circumstances it was monstrous to ask for
Ili theit Hon.industrious
Gentleman
opposite
protection for the West Indians out of the hard earnings
°
oisni t
eEtnhgoluagnidi
--'t
th(Catiletlet'e Nest
Indies Indies had a just claim, but ho doubted how we
were to pay it. Now he (Mr. Gibson)
took just the converse position. He denied
the claim, but, if he admitted it, he should be pre-
pared to say that it ought at all hazards and sacrifices
to be paid.—(Hear, hear.) But he denied the claim.
The West India proprietors had had 20,000,000/. from
us for their slaves. That sum represented the capital of
800,000/. per annum. For the last nine years the West
Indies had exported about 2f million tons. of sugar
yearly. The interest, therefore, amounted to a bounty
of about ss. 4d, a cwt. on every cwt. of sugar exported
since the passing of the Emancipation Act.—(Cheers.)
If he deducted this bounty from the expense, it would
be, according to Lord Harris, no less than half the cost
of production. Take the case of Jamaica. Jamaica, on
en average of the last nine years, had exported 751,539 I
cats. of sugar a year. The proprietors of that island
had received 6,102,000/. in the shape sof compensation.
Why, the interest on that sum amounted to a bounty of
no less than 7s. on every cwt. of sugar exported from
the colony. The House had nothing to do with moot-
gages or marriage settlements. In 1830, during the
period of slavery, it was stated that the cost of pro-
duction of a cwt. of sugar in our West India colonies
was 15s. 4d., less by ss. 4d. than was stated by many
competent witnesses to be the cost of production now. As
to the money compensation now proposed, how was it to
be applied to the case of persons who had recently per.
chased estates in the West Indies at nominal prices?
Were these parties to set up a claim of compensation in
respect of these estates, as though they had been pro-
prietors of them at a time when great dividends were
realised from this source?—(Hear, hear.) It was said
that free labour could not compete with slave labour;
the production of indigo afforded a proof to the con•
trary, for it was well known that free-labour indigo had
entirely driven slave-labour indigo out of the market.
—(Hear, hear.) He denied that the slave trade had in-
creased. The speech of his Hon. Colleague had
thoroughly disproved the allegation that such was the
case. He protested against the proposition that our
foreign trade was to be proscribed, or even crippled, to
suit the purposes of our colonial agriculture. It was out
of the question to suppose that by any legislation they
could do that for the colonists which the colonists
would not do for themselves. As to the slave trade,
public opinion would in the end put it down throughout
the world, as public opinion had put it down in the
British dominions. Meanwhile our great principle
should be to do our best in attending to our own real
business.
Mr. T. BARING said that everything that occurred
showed hire the danger of sudden and sweeping changes.
He contended that the case of the British West Indian
colonies presented an entire exception to the rules even
of the most rigid free-trader, for
-our West India colo-

nies were suffer—lnc", not so much from the ordinary na-
ture of things, as from the difficulties which had been
thrown in their way by Imperial legislation. The Right
Hon. Gentleman over the way repudiated the proceed-
ings of the Committee, of which he himself had been a
member in constant attendance, and said that no reli-
ance was to be placed upon their reported evidence or
their stated views. Yet the Right Hon. Gentleman's
Friend (the ion. Member for Westbury) had moved a
distinct resolution that the West Indian colonies were in

a state of great distress, requiring a decided remedy..
He protested against the mode in which lion. Gentle-
men opposite seemed to treat the West Indian colonies
and their interests, as subject altogether to the varying
circumstances of party contest. The proposition of the
Government was to give a protection of 7s. to British
sugar, but between the value of British sugars and
foreign there was a difference of 2s. 4d. a cwt., which
would reduce the nett protection to4s.:t3d. But, indepen-
dently of all these calculations, the question was, would
the proposition of the Government afford a real and
substantial relief to the planters ? Would the measure
restore confidence in the colonies ? So far from it,
there was hardly a man there who thought they could
struggle on under it. Even the 10s. duty would hardly
effect any considerable relief, although it certainly would
enable the planters to carry on cultivation to a greater
extent than under the Government propositions. But
the protection offered of 4s. Bd. was only to endure
for one year. Nothing was more distressing than a con-
tinued state of depression, and one which annually would
become worse ; he felt that this would be the case under
the proposed rate of duties, and in voting for the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member for Droitwich he was only
actuated by the sincere belief that the Government
proposition was not adequate to the emergency. The
colonists would not look at it as a manifestation of
a real desire to help them. They would say that
the Government had called to their relief a gentleman
skilful in dealing with figures, and by his assistance,
they
attempted to throw dust in their eyes.
(teer, hear.) The Government looked at the colo-
nies not as they really were, but as the Colonial-office
wished them to be.—(Hear, hear.) Was it satisfactory
that the measure should be regarded by the colonists as
a party proceeding? Would it be looked at by them as
having proceeded from the fair convictions of the House,

when it was only passed by a majority of fifteen votes?
And was it tholght that the sugar consumer would be
benefited by th-3 change? Would he not rather be in-
jured? Was n')t, the sugar cultivation falling off in the
West Indies, an how much easier was it not to destroy
j than to restore? What was wanted was not temporary
but permanent cheapness of sugar. As the Right Hon.
Member for Coventry had said, the question was not one
of a penny a pound cheaper sugar for the consumer, but
whether the sugar colonies were to be destroyed; and it
would become a qnestion hereafter, whether the colonists
would not come to Parliament and claim, not protection,
for that was no longer an English word, but the means

of maintaining order and their social institutions. For
all the reasons he hid stated, he should give his humble
support to the amendment.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that having already spoken
on the former evening's debates, he should trouble the
Committee only for a few minutes ; but he could not let
the Hon. Gentleman's observations pass without some
remarks. He must say he was glad to have a proposie
tion set before the Committee in opposition to that of
the Government. The Hon. Member (Mr. T. Baring)
had suggested views and attributed motives to the Go-
vernment which were discreditable to them, and he had
moreover stated that they bad not the interests of the
colonies in view. The Hon. Mete bees influence and his
abilities were such as to induce the colonists to believe
his statements. But if the Hon. Gentleman's statements
were true, the way to benefit the colonists would have
been to have made a proposal which all would have
agreed in, and not to endeavour to collect into one body
all the discordant opinions, and muster them against the
Government propositions. It appeared to him that the
coarse taken by the opposite party ought to have been
quite different to that pursued. They ought first to have
discussed the question whether the House would go into
Committee at all, and then the amendment of the lion.
Member for Manchester would have been discussed and dis-
posed of. Then they would have taken into consideration
the Government propositions, and the Hon. Baronet
opposite would have made his present amendment. But
they began by first discussing the Hon. Baronet's
amendments, and afterwards that of the Hon. Member
for Manchester; and now they came to the considera-
tion of the second amendment of the Hon. Baronet the
Member for Droitwich, for substituting a 10s. duty in-
stead of the one proposed by the Government. Now let
him state what he considered to be the disadvantages of
that proposal. It could not be sound, in the first place,
that it would risk no less an amount of revenue than
060,0001, for the Hon. Baronet's calculations on this
head were all conjectural; and let him ask whether it
was wise, so soon after a serious deficiency had been
made up, to risk nearly a million of revenue in this
way? The Hon. Baronet's proposal was to impose a
10s. duty for the period of six years.—(No.) What,
then, was the Hon. Baronet's proposal?
Sir J. PAKINGTON said his proposal was to impose
a 10s. duty for three years, but that he was not disposed
to enter into any speculations as to the period to which
that duty ought to be ultimately extended.
Lord J. RUSSELL—But that would leave the whole
question of the sugar duties in a most unsatisfactory
state, for nothing is to be more deprecated than uncer-
tainty in the operation of duties.—(Hear, hear.) The
proprietors might then say we will work during the
three years of protection and then give up cultivation
and abandon our estates. What would be the state of
the colonies? It might he very beneficial for those who
have invested their property in the West Indies, but
not at all encouraging to those who wish success to the
introduction of free labour. There would be two
serious risks attending the adoption of the Honourable
Baronet's amendment. One is the risk of losing
960,000/. of annual revenue, and the other founded on
the state of uncertainty in which the colonies would be
left at the end of three years, or the loss which six
years of protection weulti inflict on the consumer. These
appear to me to be sufficient reasons for rejecting the
proposal of the Honourable Baronet. The Honourable
Member for Huntingdon asks why has not the Govern-
ment proposed a middle course—why refuse to do so
merely for the sake of consistency? Why, if we wished
to preserve a reputation for consistency our course would
have been to stand by the law of 1846.—(11ear, hear.)
That would have been our course, and we should not
have been reproached as we have been for abandoning
that measure and the principle it involves. What we
have endeavoured to do was to adopt the very course
which the Honourable Member for Huntingdon
recommends. We have endeavoured to adopt a middle
course, sensible of its inconvenience, not at the same
time sensible that we should satisfy the West India in-
terest, and knowing also that in departing from the
measure of 1846 we should incur great complaints from
those who were satisfied with that measure. Exposed
to these disadvantages, open to these objections, we have
proposed a measure which we thought advantageous to
all parties; and whatever faults or omissions it may
exhibit, it is one which I submit is better comparatively
than that which has been proposed by the Hon.
Baronet.—(Cheers, and cries of " Divide.")
Mr. DISRAELI said he hoped that as he had not
before taken any part in the present debate he should be
allowed to occupy the attention of the House for a few
moments, especially as he intended to confine himself
strictly to the question immediately before the House.—
(Hear, hear:) He must say, with reference to the two
positions of the Noble Lord—first as regarded revenue,
and secondly as to the unsatisfactory nature of the Hon.
Member for Droitwich's proposition—that with re-
spect to the first he did not think the experience they
had had of the Noble Lord's calculations of revenue
should make his opinion on that point a matter of very
vital importance—(A laugh)—and as to the proposition
of his Hon. Friend, he admitted that it was exposed to
the objection of being only of a temporary character.
But what, on the other hand, was the proposition of
Ministers? Was it not open to the same objection as was
applied to the scheme of his Hon. Friend?—(liear,
hear.) His Hon. Friend's scheme was a step in the
right direction, and held out a greater hope of stability
and certainty than that of the Noble Lord. He cer-
tainly thought that the Noble Lord's proposition, after
all the inquiry and discussion which had taken place,
was anything but satisfactory. And when they had the
Right Hon. Member for Tamworth, who had had, from
peculiar circumstances, his attention directed to the
affairs of our sugar colonies for many years, telling
them that the Committee which had investigated the
subject in 1848 had thrown a flood of light upon it, he
thought that it did not become the House, or any of its
Members, to depreciate that inquiry or discussion.
There was one point on which they were all agreed, ex-
cept the Hon. Under-Secretary for the Colonies—namely,
that our colonies in the West Indies were in an unpre-
precedented state of depression.
Mr. HAWES—I admitted they were CO.
Mr. DISRAELI—Perhaps the Hon. Under-Secretary
had become convinced in the course of the discussion.—
(A laugh.) It was also agreed that the Hon. Baronet
the Member for Droitwich had advanced a proposition to
the House which was in unison with the report of the
Committee, to the effect that the depression of our colo-
nies had arisen from their inability to compete with slave
labour ; and, what the House was then called upon to
do was, to give them such an amount of assistance as
majority thatthat
decision
cprotectionisio n
w a s
founded o
would enable them to compete with slave labour.
—(Hear, hear.) The Committee had decided by
of
i 'poenr cwt.a lo rt gs,hopualtdienbte,
and instate investigation, given; iv en
and
Member for Manchester had The Right Honourable
said that they all knew
how these Committee inquiries were conducted, that
certain leading questions were asked, with a view of get-
ting such answers as would bear on the views of the
questioner. Now he (Mr. Disraeli) did not think that
sit all a fair description of the proceedings of the
Committee, the more ,especially as his Right Hon.
Friend had himself attended and cross-examined
all the witnesses, being moreover at the time a member
of the Government. Why, there was one witness who
was so much in unison with the views of the Colonial-
office,that he was called Lord Grey's witness.—(Laughter)
That gentleman was examined for three hours and
twenty-five minutes, in chief by a member of the Go-
vernment, and his business before the Committee was to
substantiate the principles, the acknowledged principles
of the Colonial-office, namely, that free labour could
compete successfully with slave labour, that the great
source of West India misfortune was absenteeism; and
that the only remedy for those misfortunes would be the
repeal of the navigation-laws.—(Cheers.) Ile men-
tioned these facts to show that the inquiry of the Com-
mittee had not been merely a hole and corner investi-
gation, but that the subject matter was investigated
bona fide, and that every shade of opinion was properly
represented. It; therefore, a body of evidence ob-
tained under such circumstances had induced the
Committee to arrive at a conclusion very different
from that ;of :the Government, it was the legiti-
mate consequence of such evidence ; and he begged it
to be understood that the representatives of Government
on the Committee, had done their best to substantiate
the views of the Colonial-office, as he had before indi-
cated. The gentleman whose examination in chief was
given to prove that free labour could compete with slave
labour, admitted on his cross-examination that he had
on his own estate produced free-labour sugar at an ex-
pense of 521. per ton.e—(Hear, hear.) The same gentle-
man was called on to prove that absenteeism was a
curse, and he ultimately proved that every resident pro-
prietor was insolvent, and that all the sugar was pro-
duced by absentees.—(Cheers and laughter.) He re-
ferred to the evidence of Mr. Peckwood (as we
understood), who was also to prove the third point of
the Colonial-office creed, namely, that the relief for co-
lonial grievances was to be found in a repeal of the
navigation-laws; but his evidence did not at all lead to
that conclusion. After all these witnesses, it had been
said that the Sugar Planting Committee had acted
like the Navigation Committee—(A laugh)—had heard
only the evidence on one side, and then separated
without agreeing to any report.—(Hear, hear.)
He denied the truth of that assertion. The Committee
had patiently heard all the evidence worth listening to,
and so far from shirking reports, he believed that there
never was a Committee which had produced a greater
number.—(Hear, hear.) Well, it was proved to the sa-
tisfaction of that Committee that our colonies could not
compete with the slave colonies; and it was also shown
most satisfactorily that the difference between them
amounted to little less than 16a. the cwt. Certainly the
Hon. Member for Westbury did, on a subsequent occa-
sion, challenge the accuracy of the calculations; but to
his (Mr. Disraeli's) apprehension, the Hon. Member did
not appear to be so happy upon sugar as he generally
was on other subjects.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He
could never forget the tremendous statistics with which
on an early night in the session the Hon. Member had
come down, as regarded beet-root sugar.—(Hear.) They
had not heard much of beet-root sugar during the pre-
sent debate.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) It was
not alleged now that this country might be supplied
with the beet-root sugar of the continent. But it was
said that it was unjust to prove that 16s. was the re-
quired amount of protection, and then to demand only
10s. It should be remembered, however, that all the
calculations in the Committee were made before any of
the promised changes had been announced, and before