The Sun.
London, England, 1848-10-03 00:00:00

Was anything said to you in Mr. O'Brien's presence
when you got in ?
Witness—What took place was this—Mr. O'Brien
was sitting at the head of the table with a book in his
hand, in which the names of all the clubs in Dublin
were registered. He called out the name of the club,
and the representative of each came forward and
answered. He then asked the number of it, or its
numerical strength, and got the required information.
The " Red-hand Club " was not called out that even-
ing. Mr. O'Brien next asked each representative was
the club organized ? was it divided into sections and
sub-sections, with an officer to each? and was answered
in the usual way. This occupied about three hours.
Witness was in the habit of going to the Council-
room occasionally, and on the evening in question he
saw several of the leaders. The room was exceed-
ingly full, and he could not, therefore, see them
all. It was then about eight o'clock. Mr.
Meagher was not there. The meeting took
place on a Saturday, and was only held to make
arrangements for a meeting to he held next day in
Mr. Ennis's yard, at Kilmainham. A difference
of opinion prevailed, as to the number of the clubs,
among the leaders. Some said they were composed
of five, some six, and others 7,000 men, and the meet-
ing was called for next day, to satisfy Mr. O'Brien,
and that he might see if they were in good condition.
He also asked if the walls were high, that none but
clubbists might be admitted. In the course of the
evening he talked of accomplishing the independence
of his country by force, and gave directions that they
should go to the place of meeting in sub-sections of
five, in order to avoid coming in contact with the au-
thorities. The meeting, however, was not held, as the
authorities heard of it, and the ground was occupied
by the police. In the course of conversation on the
same evening, Mr. O'Brien spoke encouragingly of
his visit among the country clubs, and particularly
marked out the Cork club, as being for its organiza-
tion and discipline equal to any of her Majesty's
service. They also spoke of arms in a sufficiently
loud tone, that Mr. O'Brien could hear it,
and, indeed, he took a part in the discussion. A per-
son named Troughton also gave an account of his
tour through England, and stated that in two towns
alone, there were 500 armed men ready to come over
when the insurrection commenced, and that they had
two swivels there ready to come over. It was not a
conversation, but an address, delivered in so loud a
voice that every person in the room could hear it.
The great difficulty, however, which he said lay in
getting over the swivels, and Mr. O'Brien replied to
his statement, by saying that he had been in Bantry,
where the people gave him a hearty cheer, particu •
larly a boat's crew in the bay, and that the clubs of
Dublin should also get boats, which would answer
for that and other purposes. Mr. O'Brien spoke for
a considerable time of the organisation necessary to
effect the objects they had in view, and said he had
not inspected Ireland in order to have proof positive
that organisation existed. When Troughton asked
the date of the insurrection, Mr. O'Brien replied
that he would rather ascend the gallows than to
cause the loss of life of one on his account by
a premature movement. The rescue of per-
sons in gaol was also spoken cf, and in
case they were convicted, it was unanimously re-
sclved that they should be rescued. He knew Joseph
Brennan, and remembered a midday meeting held in
the same place on the 19th of July of the representa-
tives of clubs, and the council of the confederation.
lie (witness) attended as representative of the Red-
hand Club, but the room was so full that lie could not
see who occupied the chair. The meeting was called
to defeat the proclamation of the Lord-Lieutenant
respecting arms, and Brennan proposed a resolution
that the insurrection should commence at once, as the
people would nut be in a better position in harvest,
that they would be dispirited, and that the Govern-
ment would take up all the arms they could. To
that resolution Mr. Dillon moved as an amendment
that the people should conceal their arms, and give
passive resistance to the proclamation, and Mr.
O'Brien said that to break out then would be premature.
Ile knew T. D. M'Ghee, who made a speech advising
them to cast lots as to the person who should tell the
people at the Music Hall that night to resist the pro-
clamation. Mr. Richard O'Gorman was also present,
and told Mr. Dillon that his resolution about passive
resistance was too indefinite, and it was said that
Mr. Doheny was organizing in the country. A di-
vision took place on Dillon's amendment, which was
put twice to the vote, when there was a very small
majority for it, and the minority were quite dissatis-
fied. Mr. Brennan also said that they had the
elements of strength within themselves—that if they
waited for aid from France or America, they might
do so until rifles were forged in heaven and angels
drew the triggers.—(Laughter.) The witness often
saw the members of the Curran Club and others
armed with muskets and pikes. He knew a man named
Lawrence Hanlon, who was a member of the Red
Hand Club, and saw him often cleaning arms, both
muskets and pikes ; preparing them and cleaning
them. He was what they called a " handy man."
He used to provide the materials, by buying a lock
in one place and a stock in another, and furnished
them to the members of the club for 14s. 6d. He
attended a meeting on Friday, the 21st of July, when
Mr. Dillon was in the chair. It was called in conse-
quence of a resolution come to on the 19. h, that an
executive council should be formed to govern the
clubs, or some important business.
Mr. WHITESIDE here contended that, as Mr.
O'Brien was not present at the meeting held on the
21st, he ought not to be bound by it, and that it was,
therefore, inadmissible; but the Court ruled that, as
he was a member of the same body, and present on
the 19th, he was clearly bound by what took place.
On the 21st, Meagher, M'Ghee, Lalor, M'Dermot,
Halpin, and others of the leaders, were present, but
O'Gorman was not. When O'Gorman was called to
the chair, Mr. Leyne and several gentlemen were pre-
sent, not members, and the business would not be
proceeded with, or the election for the executive
council commenced, until they left the room. Mr.
Dillon called out the representative, who, as they
answered, went into an inner room, where they re-
mained until the strangers went away. After the
sitting was resumed, Mr. Lalor produced a letter
written by Mr. Duffy, from gaol, and then they
elected the "executive council." some proposed
seven, some three, and some five, by a regular motion
made in every case ; but a council of five were at last
agreed to.
To Mr. WHITESIDE—The resolutions were not
taken down in a book.
Examination continued—The election was by
ballot, and " they all" agreed to elect Mr. O'Brien ;
but it was said that it was much better to have him
organizing the country than confined to a council.
The witness himself voted in the usual way, and the
persons elected were Dillon, Meagher, O'Gorman,
and M'Ghee ; and there being an equality of votes
for Devin Reilly and Lalor, another election took
place, and Reilly was elected.
Mr. WHITESIDE having asked if the papers used on
that occasion were to be given in evidence, the At-
torney-General produced the identical balloting pa-
pers used on the occasion.
The witness continued—Mr. Lalor wanted them,
on that occasion, to-give a pledge that the insurrec-
tion should take place on the Bth of August, but
Mr. Meagher declined doing so, stating that he would
do all that in him lay to excite the people, and Dillon
exclaimed, "So help him God, that he would do the
same." M'Ghee said also that he would, by writing
and speaking, excite the country to on insurrection as
soon as possible. The balloting papers were here
produced and identified by the witness, as well as the
handwriting of M`Dermot, Lalor, O'Higgins, and
several others. The papers were kept by Halpin, and
he neither saw nor did he know what became of them
from that night until be saw them in the hands of
the Crown Solicitor, a few days ago.
Cross-examined by Mr. WHITESIDE—He took no
interest in the political matters of this country, and
was a member of the "Red Hand Club" from the
16th of June until its dissolution. The rules of the
club, handed him, as inserted in the Nation news-
paper, were, he believed, the correct ones. They in-
cluded all Repealers, whether members of the Confe-
deration or not. He was positive such a club as the
"Red Hand Club" existed, but he knew not if another
man in court would depose to the same fact. The as-
sertion that resolutions inserted next morning in the
newspapers, passed at the meeting of the 19th, was a
falsehood, or they must have passed before he went to
the meeting. His name, or that of his club, did not
appear in the list of the clubs called over on the 15th

of July, but both appeared on the 21st. He had a
book in which he kept notes, or original reports, of
all that occurred, but that was at home, and the
memorandum he had in his hand was an account of
the dates merely when all these proceedings occurred.
Did you ever see or speak to Mr. O'Brien
have seen him and heard him speak.
Mr. O'Brien, in a loud determined voice—Speak
up, sir.
Did you ever speak to him ?—Never.
The witness, who was exceedingly nervous, pro-
ceeded to answer the questions put to him by the
Learned and able Counsel, to the most important of
which we are obliged necessarily to confine ourselves.
The prisoner did not say that were he Mr. Duffy, he

would rather lose his life on the gallows than have

any one else lose his life fur him.

At this period of the proceedings, Mr. Whiteside,
seeing the Learned Judge not taking a note of the
proceedings, directed Sir Colman CYLoghlen to do so,
upon which Mr. O'Brien said, " My Lord, I am not
certainly familiar with proceedings in courts of jus-
tice, but as it occurs to me that you have taken down
everything that was unfavourable, you ought to take
a note of what is favourable to my case."
Chief Justice BLACKBURNE—And how do you
know that we have not ? Mr. O'Brien—l have not
seen you do so.

Chief Justice BLAcKnuaNE—We are taking all
that's necessary, and you are better not to in-
terfere.