The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-20 00:00:00

persisting as the Hon. Baronet, but still postponed hi.
motion, as had other Hon. Gentlemen. In justice to
those gentlemen who had complied with his request, he
must move the adjournment of the debate on the motion
of the Hon. Gentleman.
The motion was put, which was immediately fo'hiwed
by cries of " Withdraw, withdraw."
Sir ANDREW AGNEW stated that, in deference to
the House, he would for the present withdraw his motion.
Mr. GUEST moved for the appointment of a Select
Committee to take into consideration the amount of Palm ies,
allowances, and emoluments received by the public officers
and servants of both Houses of P.ili iinent, whether paid
salaries or fee., and to report thereon.
Lord ALTHORP made an observation or two, which
was followed by a short conversation between himself and
Mr. GUEST, but which was perfectly inaudible in the
gallery. In the result we understood the motion to be
withdrawn till late in the evening.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to repeal so much of the Act 34th Geo. 111., as imposes a
penalty on the masters of ve,sels lying in the river Liffey,
for having fires on board, and to amend the said Act.
The Hon. 31mber would not persist in his motion at
this time, if there was any objection whatever to it.
Mr. STANLEY did not think there would be any ob-
jection on the p irt of Government to the bringing in of
such Bill, but he submitted to the Hon. and Learned
Member whether it would not he better fur him to post-
pone his motion tilt a later period in the evening.
Mr. O'CONNELL had much pleasure in acceding to
this prop. sition.
Mr. O'DWYER moved for a continuation of the return

of the number of British officers who had been removed
by courtemat tial from the army, and also the names znd
ground of removal of such officers. He trusted there would
be no objection to this return on the part of Government.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion. He did not think
that this motion was similar to those that had been made
on the subject before, and had been refused. He agreed
' with the propriety of the Hon. Member moving for a re-
turn of the ground of removal, and, indeed, this appeared
to him to be of the greatest importance.--(Hear.)
He had no doubt that many Hon. Members were
of opinion that officers, when they were sitting as judges in
courrsmartial were perfectly independent, and could do
just what they pleased. For his own part he entertained
a contrary opinion, and by the return now moved for he
thought it would now be seen that many deserving men
had been improperly struck off tie army list, and de-
prived of their means of subsistence, without any just
cause whatever. There was no doubt that the officers
who sat in those courts were made to act in accordance
with the wishes of their superiors.
Sir J. HOBHOUSE agreed with the Hon. Member
who seconded this motion, that it was of a different nature
to those that had been made before, but it was one to
which he certainly should have decided objections. He had
no objection to a continuation of a return of the number
of offic,rs who had been removed, but if the Hon Mem•
ber persisted in applying for the names of such officers,
and grounds for removal, lie trusted lie would follow the
example already set him by one or two Hon. Members,
of rstponit g that which was likely to give rise to a de-
bate to a late period of the evening.
Mr. O'DWYER thought his motion intimately con-
nected with the Bill now before the House, but in accord.
mace with the suggestion just made, he would postpone the
motion.

DISTURBANCES SUPPRESSION (IRELAND) BILL
Lord ALTHORP moved the order of the day for the
Hou.e going into a Committee on this Bill.
Mr. T. ATTWOOD rose to move his amendment, to the
effect that all further proceedings on this Bill be suspended
until the remetii,ti measures which had been disclosed by his
M jesty's Government hail becom• law. It was his opi-
nion th a if the House passed the Irish Disturbances 13111
ft,st, it would be vei y lone before they would s.e those
remedial measures produced ; and it would afford him
ouch pl-ssore to is,e Ministers fulfil all their pledees.
Tne SPEAKER inti-rrup!ed the lion. Member, and
. _

informed him that he hari taken a wrong opportunity for
effecting his object. The present tray not the proper
time to mike such an amendment.

An HON AIEILIER wishoi to 8•k whether it was the

intention of his Atij-sty's &ivernment to institute any
iminefliate measure respecting the Exei.e Laws, and it so
whether it was intended to include Scotland in any such
measure ?

Lord ALTHORP Panted that his Majesty's Government
had appointed a commission to examine into the st-tte of
the Excise Laws, and the management of the Excise
Duties, and that, in any m more which might be
introdur.-d. Scothind would he included.
Mr O'CONNELL wi+).4l to put a question which was
mo e inurnedia'ety connected with Ireland. Looking at th,

present condition of that country, it would be 11-esirable

to know whether his Rlajesty'.l Government had now under
their consideration any measure for the establishment of
poor laws applicable to it. If they had not, he would
during the evenine give notice that he would move for the
appointment of a Select Committee to consider whether
a safe and effectual plan of poor laws could be adopted
tow ,rds Ireland.

Lord ALTHORP stated that his M jesty's Govern•
meat had no such plan at present under their considera-
tion, nor did lie think they would be able to do anything
wi,h it this sessi,.n.

Mr. O'CONNELL observed that during the evening
be w..u11 bring the snbj,-ct again forward.
Mr. T. ATTWOOD rote for the purpose of moving as
an amendment that the further consideration of the
Irish Coercive Bill be postponed until the remedial mea-
sures announced by Ministers had bt en passed into law.
The House had now sat for six weeks, and as nearly as
he could recollect, he believed it had be n occupied nine-

tenths of that time on the Irish measures. non; he consi-
dered there was more danger and disturbance in England
than in Ireland. When he considered the great distress
of the people, and the prevalent exasperation of mind
that prevailed, he could not but see great danger in ab
sorbing the time of the House with Irish questions, to the
total neglect of English measures of amelioration.—( Hear.)
Ireland was comparatively at the present moment in a
peaceable state ; the ass zes were going on well, and con-
victions were taking place in the ordinary course of the law;
and there was, in fact, no necessity for the coercive measures
now proposed by Government.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.")
He trusted Hon. Members would see the propriety of
postponing the Irish Coercive Bill until the remedial
measures were passed ; at all events the two
kinds of measures should proceed pari passu. side
by side ; if nor, his firm belie! was that the remedial mea•
sores would nev,r be passed ; and it was most de-
sirable and necessary that the great business of the
English nation should be proceeded with. He did
not mean to put the House to the trouble of
a division, but he wished to record his sentiim-nts in
favour of the amendment, which he concluded by moving.
Mr HUME seconded the amendment, on the ground

that he Ind been opposed to the introduction of the Coercive
Bill at the beginning. There was no other way, when he
looked at the time it had already occupied, and the longer
time it must still take up, of getting rid of it than by
postponing it, according to the Hon. Member's (Mr. Att-
wood's) amendment, until the remedial measures were
passed into law. Everything proved that the Bill was
uncalled for, it had been improperly introduced, and
further delay would satisfy the House that it was unne-
cessary for the peace of the country.
The SPEAKER then put the question, when
Mr. STANLEY rose. He could not tell from what
source the Honourable Member for Birmingham had
received his information of the state of Ireland

—(Hear, hear)—from which he implied that that
country had returned to a state of tranquillity, but the in-
formation which he had received officially was that the
disturbed districts were increasing daily, and although at
many of the assizes, convictions bad been had, outrages were
increasing rapidly. That was to be attributed to the
delay that had taken place in the progress of the Bill
through that House. He trusted that the same reason
which had induced the House to allow the
introduction of the measure would also weigh
with it in giving Ministers an. opportunity of p issing it
without delay, by that means giving to Ireland that se-
curity and protection which it had not at the present
moment.

Mr. HARVEY said if he could bring his mind to
believe that the motion which had been brought before
the House by the Honourable Member for Birmingham,
would lead to its adoption, he would give it his umst
hearty support ; hut from what had passed in that House,
he thought it would be apparent to every Hon. Member
that such would not be the result. He trusted, there-
fore, 'hat those Hon. Members who had given their
opposition to the me (sure would now give way, as it
was quite apparent that all attempts were vain, by
that means allowing Ministers to press firward the
measure, and take all the responsibility of it en their
own shoulders. No one entertained more decided hostiliry
the. he did to the introduction of tee Irish Bill, and he
only advised the adoption of such a course by Irish
Mein era, because he was fully convinced that the conflict
Was llgriesS.

Mr. O'CONNELL con'idered it an unpardonable dere-
liction of' ht, lU y tf lie allowed any part of the Conch u-
non of the lsnd to be tr4inpled down even under the plea
of n,cessity—and at present that excuse had no founda-
tion in truth—without lifting up his voice, and appealing
to the House not to permit it. They were about to go

into that clause which proposed the suspension of the trial
by jury, and with respect to that clause he would say that
be intended to propose no amendment, but to object to the
whole of it. He would try the main question. whether
there were to be courtsmartial or no courtsmartial. He
again begged to deny that outrages had increased in Ire-
land ; but he would tell the House, from sure information
he had lately obtained, that since the announcement of the
present Bill great disgust was caused among the upper
and middle classes against the existing Government. He
mentioned this to the Houle in order to warn them how
Vey consented to a measure the probable effects of which
would be to cause a servile war in Ireland. He reminded
them that the country they were about to offend was no
Isle of Wight or Dian, but a country of 8,000,000 in•
haiiitants, as powerful and as brave as any nation of the
same extent. Upon the heads of those who passed the
measure be the con equenees of so doing ; he had done
his duty when he cautioned them to beware, and when he
announced to them the abhorrence of the upper classes at
the present projected Bill. Those classes had enforced the
law with the utmost rigour, and there was not the
least shrinking of Jurors at the present assizes. On the
contrary, there had not been for some years so great an
attend ince of Jurors as there was this year.
Mr. H. GRA f TAN also entered his protest against
being interdicted opposing the present Bill. If it passed,
the upper classes in Ireland would feel themselves most
',risibly wounded, in being reduced as it were into utter
insignificance, by the introducti in of courtsmartial.

Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON coincided with the
remarks trade by the two last Hon. and Learned Wm-
bers. It was their duty to amend the Bill, if possible,
and the time for doing so was whilst it was passing
through the CAnmittee.

The amendment was then negatived without a division,
and the House went into a Committee on the Bill.

The CHAIRMAN was about to read the 9th clause,
when—

Mr. STANLEY said, that they were now about to
arrive at that clause which extended to proclaimed districts
those engines which Government thought it n, ces•
&try to employ with respect to public meetings i❑ those
districts. In framing the clauses one and nine, Govern-
ment thought fit to make a distinction between those dis-
tricts which were proclaimed and those which were not.
In districts rot proclaimed, the power was given to sup-
press meetings which might be thought dangerous to the
puhlic peace, but in other cases meetings in such districts
might be legal. In proclaimed districts it was thought
necessary to go a step further, and prevent any meeting
from being held for the purpose of petitioning about
alleged grievances, and descanting on topics tending
to inflame the minis of the people. These meetings were
to be considered prigla facie dangerous, unless they had
previously obtained the sanction of the Lord-Lieutenant.
When this precise matter had been already before the
House, the Hon. Member for Galway had made some ex-
ception with respect to meetings convened by the consti-
tutional authorities, such as the Lord-Lieutenant or the
High Biiliffs of counties. He would now. state what it
was the intention of Government to do with respect to
those clauses. They proposed to insert a new clause to
follow the ninth, which world more cle rely point out •he
distinction drawn between districts disturbed and those
which were not. This new clause be would propose when
the ninth had been disposed of—" Provided also, and be
it enacted, that nothing in this Act shall extend, or be
con idered to extend, to prohibit or enable the Lord-Lieu-
tenant er other chief governor or governors of Ireland, to
prohibit in any county, county of a city, or county of a
town, whether in a proclaimed district or' elsewhere, in
Ireland, any meeting which shall be duly convened by the
Sheriff or Lieutenant of such county, or by the Lieutenant
or Chief Magistrates of such county of a city or county of
a toe n." This proviso was to extend equally to districts
pr claimed and those which were rn.t, and its oject ra as
not to prevent parties from publicly expres-ing their
unbiassed opinions.—(Hear, hear, hear.) There was
to be another provi-o—" Provided, neverthel, es, that
in any proclaimed district, it shall net be lawful
fur any person, not tieing a resident of the county,
barony, half birony, parish, or district for which such
meetinc shall he convened, to take part in or be present
at any such meeting, and that any person trking part in
or being present at such meeting, and not being resident
as afore-aid (save and except any such Magistrates, con-
stables, or other persons charged with the preservation of
the peace), shall be deemed or taken to be gui!ty of a mis-
demeanor." These were the insertions intended to he
made of er the ninth clause, and he trusted they would
ove satis'actory to all parties.

Mr. FINN suggested that it miv.ht be lawful for per-
sons holding a certain amount of property in proclaimed
districts, though not resident in them, to be present at
such mee•ing+.

Mr. STANLEY said, that the Hon. Member's sugges-
tion should be taken into eons deration.

The ninth clause having then been put,
Mr. HALL had given notice of an amendment, but
with the permission of the House, he would withdraw it.

O'CONNELL was not at 411 disß,s,ll to encourage
public meetings in proclaimed districts, but he begged
leave to observe, that the districts most disturbed at pre,ent
were those in which public meetings were not held. On
the contrary, in the districts and towns where public
meetings had been htld, there had been no disturbance.
He would cite Dublin as an instance of the truth of his
assertion. He thought that ten days' notice of any meet-
ing ought to be sufficient, anti that the consent in
writing of the Lori Lieutenant was totally superfluous.
It, after ten days' nom e, the Lord Lieutenant did not re-
fuse his consent to the holding of a meeting, it might be
considered that he had given his tacit consent. He would
not divide the House upon the tnatter.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL thought it much better
to have the written consent of the Lord-Lieutenant, than
allow people to remain in an uncertainty after they had
given ten days' notice of the meeting, whether they were
to be allowed to hold it or not.

The amendment was negatived without a division.
The ninth clause was then agreed to.
On the tenth clause having been put,
Mr. STANLEY said, that belore they went into the
consideration of this clause, he felt it incumbent on him
to lay before the House several material provisions that
h id been resolved on, which, without diminishing the
efficiency of the Bill, would meet the objections that Hon.
Melilla:l.a connected with Ireland had made to it. Those
provisions were made in older to render military tribunals
as little liable to be abused as possible. Two or three of
t- are modifications had been made, and already mentioned
to the House. The first was the removal from courts-
martial of officers of low standing and little experience.
This was done by not permitting on courtsmartial any
officets who had not ob•ained the rank of Gain tin. He
would announce another more important alteration.
Great objections had been made that the officers of those
tribunals, whose duty led them to hunt a ter culprits, and
who, after being harassed night and day, mieht conic
to those tribunals without that impartiality and
coolness that persons in a judicial capacity ought
to possess. To meet those objections, it was
thought expedient that no officer on active regimental
duty should sit on those courtsmartial, before whica
he might be instrumental of having offender,' tried. The
third alteration bad been proposed by his Noble Friend
beside him, and required that there should be a greater
majority for conviction than the fa r majority of ordinary
courtsinartial. That, besides, they should not have the
power of passing sentence of death, and could not take
cognizance of capital offences. When it was a full court-
martial of nine, seven of it+ members should be unani-
mous ; and when the courtmartial consisted of seven
members, or less, it was necessary that five should concur
in their sentence. He would here allude to a letter that
had been real by the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin, from a son of Sir Edward Crosby, thanking the
lion. and Learned Member for having vindicated his
and confirming the Hon. and Learned
Member's statements.
The son of Sir Edward had au-
thorized him (Mr. Stanley) to contradict pubdcly the as-
sertions said to be contained in this letter, and had already
contradicted them himself in the public prints. The
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had read what had
been sent to him, he had no doubt. But the son of
Sir E. Crosby denied his having wished any lion.
Member to vindicate his father's memory, whilst he
had sufficient proofs of being able to do so himself.
Above all things, that gentleman did not desire that
his father's innocence should be contaminated, as he
deemed it would, by mixing it up with matters
that related to political agitation. The amendment
which he had to move would do away with the
danger of any such
i injustice, because no sentence what-
ever could be put n execution by these tribunals except
with the sanction of a higher tribunal, and even the 1
judgments of those tribunals could not be executed but by
the authority of a tribunal higher than themselves. He
sou d now beg the Committee to turn to the 15th clause
of the Bill, to which his Majesty's Government meant
to move some amendment. They thought that where
they saw that amendments were necessary, or where they
thought they could meet the wishes already expressed by
gentleman, or making such amendment as in their opi-
nion did not depart from the principles on which the Bill
was founded, they thought it best to propose the amend-
ments at once, than to wait till they arose incidentally in
the course of the discussion. He would therefore beg of
them to turn to the 15th clause, which provides, " That
it shall arid may be lairful for every such courtmartial

from time to time to issue such orders as to such court
shall seem fit, for bringing before them any person charged
by order of the Lord Lieutenant or other Chief Goy rnor
or Governors of Ireland, or 'by some person duly autho •
rized by him or them for that purpose, with any offence
by this Act made cognizable by •ucli court, or for

executing and carrying into effect any sentence, so con•
firmed as aforesaid, of any such court respectively,
which orders all sheriffs, justices of the peace gaolers,
constables, officers and ministers of justice, and
other persons to whom the same shall he directed, and
who Fro the execution thereof shall rightfully and pro-
perly appertain, sh dl End are hereby required to execute,
enforce, and obey." It had been objected to that clause,
that it would he desirable that no executive power should
be given to the courssmartial (he would use that name in
speaking of these tribunals, though, strictly speaking, they
were not courtsmartial in their constitution), and his
Majesty's Government concurred in thinking that it would
be proper to limit the jurisdiction of courtsmartial so far
as that they should be judges of the fact and offence only—
(llear)—and proposed, therefore, that instead of leaving
it to courtsmartial, to throw the whole power and respon-

sihility on the Lord-Lieutenant, or those persons directed
by him, to bring persons accused of offences before courts-
martial, leaving to the courtsmartial the power only of
taking cognizance of such cases as are brought before
them. He would now go to the consider Aion of the class
of offences to be brought before the courtsmartial. He
admitted that it was desirable that no jurisdiction should
be given to them which mieht interfere with ordinary
civil processes, and it was therefore proposed by his
Nlaje.ty's Gav"ernment, that all offences should be taken
from under their jurisdiction which were not strictly of
an insurrectionary character, or which were not accom-
panied with violence or threats of violence, or any case
w!.ich involved complica•ed points of law—which it
was always desirable should not be brought under the
cognizance of a military tribunal. With that view
they prop.ised to except Iroin the operation of the 17th
clause of the Bill (which made persons liable to be
prosecuted for offences contrary to the 27 Geo. III.) all
offences, even if connected with conspiracy er insurrec-
tion, when these offences were coinmitted without violence
or threat—(Hear, hear)—hut they not only intended to
take from the courtsmartial the jurisdiction in that class of
offences, but to take from them the jurisdiction in another
class of offences, which were always nice and cornpli-
cated—acl they meant to take it from them whether the
offences were connected with seditious matters or not—he
meant the jurisdiction in questions of libel, because his
Majesty's Alinisters thought that questions on the law of
libel were nor, in any instance, fit to be brought before a
military tribunal. They, therefore, proposed to exclude
the 21st clause of the Bill, which gave them jurisdiction
in cases of hoe!. He would, therefore, conclude by pro-
posing, that at the conclusion of thel7th clause, the follow•
ing words should be inserted :—" Provided always anti
be it enact d, that nothing in this Act be considered to give
power or jurisdiction to any courtinartial to try any per-
son or persons charged, or to be charged, with publish-
ing, or causing to be published, or hawking, selling, or
disposing of any seditious hand bill, paper, or pamphet,
in am proclaimed district, or confederating or conspiring
contrary to the provisions of an Act passed in the Parlia-
ment of Ireland, in the 27th year of the reign of George the
Third, or for the trial of any civil right, unless such
confederacy or combination shall be accompanied with
force, or threat of force." By this amendment, they
would not only include such offences as were not strictly
insurrectionary, from the operations of this Bill, but also
exclude such offences as were made capital under the

Whiteboy Act; and persons guilty of such offences should
then remain liable to the operation of Common Law.
Having made these amendments, they tben proposed to
alter the preamble of the tenth clause, and instead of the
words, " and !Or the speedy and effectual trial and punish-
ment of the several offences mentioned or referred to in
this Act," to insert—" And whereas the ordinary tribunals
for the administration of justice in the proclaimed districts
have been found inadequate for that purpose, and there-
fore," &e. He (Mr. Stanley) could say, that courts-
martial were likely to be put in requisition in very few
districts, hut the power of having such tribunals at the
disposal of Government would of itself be of great service,
and would tend to prevent the necessity on the part of
Governs .ent of putting the more rigorous parts of the
Bill in execution. He had now stated the grou, ds and
principles on which his Majesty's Government thought
titems-fives justified in making the alterations which he
had endeavoured to lay before the C-mmi,tee.

Mr. O'CONNELL said, that if he had been aware of
Cie statement made by the Right Hon. Secretary, he
should have brought clown his letter book, in order that he
might show the Right Hon. Gentleman and the House
the letter from Sir Edward Crosbie's son, on which he
had founded his statement. He begged to ask the Right
Hon. Secretary the name of the son who had written to him ?
Mr. STANLEY could not then say, but he would be
able to tell hint to-morrow. It, however, was nut of
much consequence, as the same statement had been sent to
several of the Irish Papers, and appeared in them. The
writ,r, however, stated himself to be the eldest son of
Sir Edward Crn-hie.

Mr. O'CONNELL said that the letter which he re-
ceived was dated "Liverpool," and signed " Edward
Cro,bie," and that it contained a letter from the Rev.
Archibald Douglas, Rector of Kilkelly, in Kildare. It
mentioned that the writer was in distress. As Mr. Dou-
glas, was a clergy min high in the Church, and the
brother-in-I.lw of an Irish Peer, he thought that he was
justified in making use of it ; and it was impossible fur
him to suspect that it did not contain a true account of
the writer.

Mr. STANLEY did not, in the slightest degree, im-
peach the statement of the Hun. and Learned Member.
The writer had, however, requested of him to take an op.
portunity of making the statement which it contained, in
his place in that House, and he had accordingly done
so. He did not know any of the parties concerned, fur-
ther than from the circumstance in question.
General SHARPE rose to make a statement regard-
ing the courtmartial, which condemned Sir Edward
Crosbie, and he was proceeding with the circumstances
connected with it, when

111 r. STANLEY rose, and said, that as he had intro-
duced the subject (and that unwillingly) merely for the
purpose of making the statement sent to him by a mem •
ber of the family, he hoped it would niit be made a hook
on which to hang a discus-iion on a subject which must be
painful to she friends of the parties, and was quite irrele-
vant to the subject before the Committee.
The preamble of the tenth clause, as amended, was then
agreed to.
The whole clause was then read from the Chair ; upon
which

Mr. C. FERGUSSON rose to oppose the whole of the
clause. He would fail in doing justice to himself if he
did not state that he considered the introduction as en-
tirely hostile to all the principles of the Cons itution. It
took away the trial by Judge and Jury—that boast and
safety of every Englishman. He admitted that a case
might be made out, of such urgent necessity, as to justify
the Government in doing away with trial by Jury for a
time, but the consideration of such a case was not then im-
posed on them. He opposed the clause in the first place,
because there was no precedent for such a measure.
Not a letter, not a fact, not even the statement laid before
the House by the Noble Lord, justified them in such a
course.—(Heir.) It had been adinitt-d by the Noble
Lord, and the fact ought never to be forgotten by the
House, that the Noble Lord had not brought one case
before them where jurors had not done their duty. And
there was only one case brought in which it was attempted
to show that jurors were intimidated or threatened. Ha
begged the Committee to remember, that it was not suf-
ficient to justify such a measure as that before them to
say, that jurors were afraid—(Hear)—(and even of that
there was only one act adduced), bur it must also be made
out that the jurors acted upon those fears.—(Hear, hear.)
But no Hon. Member had ventured to state that in con-
sequence of that intimidation they had been induced to
give a false verdict.—(Hear, hear.) He called, thee,
upon the House to pause before they agreed to that clause
—a clause which abolished the Trial by Jury, that boast
of Englishmen, and delivered over a large portion of
their fellow-subjects to the power of a military tribunal.
It was not sufficient to say that there was a degree of
insecurity of property in Ireland which was not felt in
this country. Every man in Ireland felt that neither
life nor property was so secure as it was in other
countries ; but that was no sufficient apology for the
abolition of the Trial by Jury.—(Llear, hear, hear.)
In order to justify such a step, intimidation of the ju-
rors was likewise necessary. And what evidence bad
been brought of that intimidation of jurors? Only one
case—that of Carrickshock ; and any one reading over the
evidence in that case, must feel that the Jury could not
help feeling a di:ubt as to the verdict they should give.
He thought, then, that he bad shown that there was no
evidence on which to rest a case which would justify the
abolition of trial by jury. He would, therefore, go into
the consideration of the jurisdiction of the courtamartial,
which it .vas proposed to substitute in their stead. These
courtsmartial could take cognizance of capital offences.—
(Cries of " No, no.") He was much mistaken if they
could not take cognizance of capital offence..
Mr. STANLEY---They cannot take cognizance of ca-
pital offences, except by
the recommendation of the Lord-
Lieutenant.

Mr. FERGUSSON—Which power I would not give to

the Lord-Lieutenant. He ohjec'ed to giving such a power
to the Lord-Lieutenant, or any other man. But courts-
martisl were entitled to find parties guilty of capital
offences; and the effect of that conviction was, the for-
feiture of the goods of the person So that, by this Act,
these courtsmartial were to have the power, not only to
banish, but to forfeit the goods of every culprit. The
establishment of courtsmartial was objectionable in an-
other view. It took away from the prisener, not only trial
by an impartial jury, but that assistance which every
[ prisoner has a right to expect, and generally re-
ceives, from the experienced Judge before whom he
should he tried. This assistanee was of great service
to prisoners ; and, without it, he (Mr. Ferguson) should
consider the trial by jury almost a curse. And how was
, it in the courts menial. There is a Judge Advocate who
is to assist the prisoner. But that Judge Advocate is the
person who by law issues the warrant against the prisoner
—he is the prosecutor—he has to examine the evidence
. before the warrant is issued—and it is on his opinion of
, that evidence that the prosecution takes place. Was it
likely that a man who hid all these duties to perform
should not be impressed with an unfavourable feeling to-
wards the prisoner ? Or that he could, at the same time,
act as his prosecutor and assistant ? On these grounds, he
r objected strongly to courtstnartial ; and he obj cted to
them further, because lie was afraid that the establishment
, of them might lead to the total subversion of trial by jury
in the country. there was another part of t[e Bill to
[ which he had strong objections, and that was the it•re
sponsibility of those tribunals. These courtsmartial were
, specially exempted from the effects of any illegal acts they
might commit under the Bill. That, they all knew, was
e• not the else with ordinary courtemartial, as those officers
wire liable to the ordinary tribunal,' of the country fur any
illegal acts which they might cemmit in the exercise of
their duties ; and there was at least one instance (that of
Sir Charles Oele, who was fined 1,0001., for an illegal
act) in which officers were punished for such conduct.
Hut that was ad done aw iy with by the pre-
, sent Bill, and he felt astonished that his INlaj.sty'e Mi-
nisters should have thought it necessary to make the
aiteration. He considered the introduction of that Blt
as the greatest blow ever given to the Constitution. No
case similar to it had ever come before that blouse—no
• such powers bad ever been introduced into an Act of
Paaament.—(Elear, hear.) It had been said by the
Noble Lord, and by several of the Hum. Gentlein, n who
supported him, that in making an inroad en the Consti-
tution, the further they should go the better. He begged
to declare, that in all the books he had ever read, and in
all the speeches he hail ever heard spoken in that House,
or elsewhere, he had never seen or heard any doctrine
which astonished him more than that, or which was more
contrary to the generally received opinions on the subject.
He was decidedly opposed to making such extensive in-
fringements on the Constitution, and wis very much
inclined to believe that they would nut be received else-
tv-ere with the implicit consent which they seemed to
meet with here. The proposed system was abhorred try
the Irish universally, front their recollection of the horrors
it occasioned in former periods.
The CHAIRMAN suggested, that as there had been
two or three trifling vernal amendments proposed, it would
be as wed to incorporate these into the Bill, before further
discussion on insure important points.
The said verbal amendments being agreed to,
Colonel DAVIES rose, and said it was with much re-
luctance that he found himself compelled to support the
Bid, in consideration of its absolute necessity. He could
not, however, suppress his conviction, that if Government
had resorted to the vigorous exercise of their power at the
time when these unfortunate disturbances commenced,
there would not have been the slightest necessity for the
proposed measure. The Ministers had no excuse to off. r
for this neglect. They had been urged, implored to it,
over and over, again and again, from every quarter. Not
longer ago than lest July there had been a representation
made to the ether House on the state of Ireland, couched,
almost totidem rerbis, in the same manner as the repre-
sentation on winch his Majesty's Nlinisteeo had founded the
present Bill. Not only had they refused to listen to the-e
imploring representations—they bed bitterly aggravated
existing evils by the production of that most atrocious
measure, the 801 l for the compulsory recovery of tithes ;
and when they bad thus brought the people to a state of
despair, Ministers came and asked the House fur remedies
of a nature against which every feeling of humanity re-
volted. But this was not a time to canvass the past con-
duct of Ministers. The great object was the present state
of Ireland, a country where all order and tranquillity
appeared to be at an end—the course of justice sub
strutted jurymen asssaulted.—(No, no, from the Op-
position Benches.) He only stated what he bad heard.
He did nut say that these representations had been
proved—(Hear, hear)—neither hid he heard any proof to
the contrary. At any rate, it appeared that jurors were
intimidated, if not assassinated. Though he was op-
posed to the system of courtsmartial in general, yet let it
be borne in mind that this was a case of no ordinary ne-
cessity. It had appeared to be supposed that officers in
the army, from their education, their position, and their
habits, must necessirily be inclined to despotic measures ;
he wits far from concurring in these views. He had been
rather surprised at an inconsistency exhibited in argument
by the Hun. and Learned Member for Dublin. That
Hon. Member had objected to these officers on the ground
that th.y would probably mix in semi intercourse with
the country gentlemen, and he biassed in their judgments
accordingly. Whom did the Hon. and Learned Member
propose to substitute ? Why, those very country gentle-
men themselves—nay, he proposed to enforce their at-
tendance under the penalty of 500/. It had been also
o jetted that the gentlemen in the army laboured under
legal incompetence; bur, in the first place, this tribunal
wt's not to try any questions of law, nor questions of
property, nor of political offences ; but merely to try
whether B had or had not engaged in illegal meetings.
He thought the officers of the army were at least as com-
petent to judge of law as the small farmers. But this
tribunal was not left entirely to their own judgment, for
they might la ive the advice of the assistant barrister. He
was as much attached to trial by jury as any man—he
considered it the palladium of English liberty; but when
he looked at the state of Ireland, he saw no remedy but
allowing the present Bill.
Mr. TAYLEURE thought that the capacity of men for
one thing, and incapacity for another entirely depended
on their education and habits. Therefore officers in the
army could not be suspected of corrupt motives or inten-
tional partiality ; but he thought that various reasons
combined to prove that they were not exactly the class of
persons of whom to ciimpose these tribunals.
Mr. Sergeant PERRIN could not give a silent vote
against this Bi I. In his conscientious judgment he be-
lieved it to be unnece-sary—(Hear, bear, from the Oppo
soion)—in his conscientious judgment, he was convinced
that it not only would not effect any goo f, but would be
productive of the greatest mischiefs.—(Hear.) After
giving due credit to all the statements relative to the
alleged intimidation of jurors, he did not find that the
Ministers had made out any case on this point, except as
regarded the Carrickshaugh murders. This case he gave
them credit for, but it mood alone; and was it not met
with the cases of Clare, of Queen's County, of Kilkenny,
by all the cases at the present assizes ?—(Cheers from the
Oaposition Benches.) Was the solitary case of Cat riek-
sheugh to outweigh all the others? Would Ministers
give no credit to the other provisions of the Bill ?
Were not tine clauses already agree f to sufficient to
put down agitation ? Were they not sufficient to
protect life and property, prevent midnight outrage, and
secure tranquillity ? They had /Wide an immense in-
crease in the military and censtabu'ary force and in the
police,e t, w
sufficient
iatw
a,, h
to produce
useof
h
thesete Bl If
v powers
effects.i If
these
r suffi e
cin
were not efficient, what could the courtemartill do ?
There was another Bill in progress_ as Bill to which he
should not refuse his consent—to change the Venue.
These powers being obtained, what more could be wanted?
With these they would have everything necessary to se-
cure the due administration of justice. In no instance
could it be proved that a jury had failed in committing
any individual under a criminal prosecution. The wit-
nesses would not be less intimidated when courtstrartial
were established than with ordinary courts ; and it
surely was not intended to convict men without hearing
witnesses ? Other courts had been suggested, but he was
not favourable to courts composed of barristers. He made
t would suggest
say
no objection to courtsmartial on account of the officers not
other
being men of honour and integrity ; but he objected to
summarycourts—h
ribune would
let there be a continued Session of the Peace. Let there
be barristers appointed to relieve each other, and so the
sessions continued by regular adjournments. He bad
been pleased by the declaration of the Right Honourable
Gentleman that this law should nut be executed
lTd hseuygg had been
none ; asked
but
he
o
unless it were necessary. He sincerely believed
that declaration ; but he had a right to infer from
the admission that the law was not immediately neces-
sary,—(Cheers.) He did not like the precedent, though he
knew it had been said that it was made so wide a de-
parture from the Constitution because it might not be fol-
lowed. But that doctrine had been held on other oc-
casions. It had been often repeated, and often refuted
by the events. This doctrine hid been often referred to in
1829, when Earl Grey had objected to the Bill then intro-
duced ; but wbat did he say in his opening speech, when
he introduced this Bill to the House? Why, that the
part of it which related to seditious meetings was merely•