The Sun.
London, England, 1848-02-15 00:00:00

T EIE SUN, LONDON,

of architecture even—l am content to rest the case upon
economy alone, upon a saving of money—and if the
reult of the inquiry should show that, by the employ-
ment of a great number of men simultaneously, and a
great number of expensive machines, we can complete
the work in two years at less cost than if it were spread
over seven years, do not let us incur the additional
expense from an unwillingness to meet the cost at once.
—(Hear, hear.) In the case of individuals it may
sometimes be necessary to pay by instalments; but, in
the case of the public, if the public interest and a regard
to economy should require the immediate completion of
the work, lam sure it will be much better to pay at
once for its immediate completion than to have it spread
over a certain number of years. But, we cannot discuss
those matters satisfactorily until the proposed Committee
shall have presented the result of its deliberations.
Mr. M. MILNES confessed he had been annoyed at
finding that the new House of Lords had not been so
generally appreciated as a work of art as he had ex-
pected, even by persons who were well able to appreciate
it ; nor could he find any consolation in attributing this
effect to a fundamental error, which he was sorry to trace
to the Commission itself rather than to the operation of
individual artists. He believed it had been represented
as strongly as possible to the Commission that if they
attempted to make any single apartment the receptacle
of so many fresco paintings as they intended, the result
would be to overpower the architectural details, and
detract from their effect. The Commissioners, how-
ever, had, unfortunately. deviated from this principle,
and disappointment had been the consequence. He
believed that the Commissioners had been actuated by
the amiable motive of encouraging as many artists as
possible ; but he hoped they would take warning by the
result, and avoid the repetition of tho error in the deco-
ration of the other parts of the building. With respect
to the cost of the building, he begged to express a hope
that the House would not unnecessarily limit Mr. Barry
either in this respect or in regard to time.
The Earl of LINCOLN said that the Hon. Member
for Montrose had accused Mr. Barry of exceeding his
estimate.

Mr. HUMS—The Lords' report says so.
The Earl of LINCOLN—The Hon. Member quoted
the Lords' report. He (the Earl of Lincoln) had not
seen the report, but this he knew, that concurrently with
the Lords' Committee, a Committee of that House had
sat, of which he had been chairman; they went care-
fully through the accounts, and the result was that Mr.
Barry was entirely exonerated, it being fully proved that
all extra expenses had been incurred under the sanction
of Committees of that House. He (the Earl of Lincoln)
was prepared to say that if a Committee were now ap-
pointed the result would be, no blame to the architect
or to the successive boards, but to that House and its
Committees. He could speak for four years, during
which all proposed alterations were invariably sub-
mitted to the House or a Committee, and the result
was generally an increase rather than a diminution of
the expenditure. He would not go into the details of
expenditure, as that was more properly matter for the
Committee; but with respect to another subject to
which allusion had been made, namely, the conduct
•of Lord Bessborough when in office, he denied that
Lord Beesborough had exercised any more control than
other commissioners. During his (Lord Lincoln's) term
of office every proper control had been exercised, but
Commissioners of Woods and Forests were not to go
be) and their constitutional bounds. The warming and
ventilation (so heavy an item) were first proposed under
Lord Bessborough's auspices; and the first thing done
by the new Government, in 1841, was on his (Lord
Bessborough's) recommendation, to appoint a committee
to inquire into both subjects. That Committee recom-
mended an addition but no curtailment of expenditure.
—(Hear, hear.) It had been said that, on an original
estimate of 700,0001., an expense of 1,400,0001. had been
incurred. He was prepared to say that that statement
was entirely erroneous. An estimate was before the
house for 1,401,0001., but that was not the amount
already expended. All the expenditure together, sup-
p!ementary works and all, amounted to only 833,0301 ;
but of this 378,0001. was for works which had never
been mentioned in the original estimate.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord opposite (Morpeth) stated the whole
sum already expended at 808,0001., and, assuming that
to be correct, it would leave the whole amount expended
on works mentioned in the estimate 430,0001. He was
anxious that, on this point, no misrepresentations
should go forth to the public.—(Loud cries of "Hear,
hear.") According to his account, Mr. Barry had, of
his original estimate, 276,000/. still remaining. The
fact was, that all the increased expenses for warming.
ventilating, &c., had originated with the House, and had
led to expensive alterations in the architect's estimates.
Ho hoped that, for the future, care would be taken to
keep the architect and ventilators distinct, as he believed
that hitherto much delay had occurred from their func-
tions not being properly defined. The amount of remu-
neration to Mr. Barry of 25,000/. was consented to by
him under protest, and was only 3 per cent, on the ori-
ginal estimate, instead of 5 per cent, which architects
usually received ; and by a Treasury minute, he was
excluded from receiving any greater amount of remune-
ration, should the expenditure exceed the original esti-
mate. Considering, also, that Mr. Barry was unable to
undertake, no doubt, smaller and less important, but
more profitable corks for private individuals, it was
evident that the Government had not been deceived and
plundered by Mr, Barry, as some Honourable Gentlemen
seemed to think. Whoever was to blame for delay or
increased expenditure, they should at least do justice to
his motives, to his zeal, and to his abilities, which no one
denied. Indeed, one of the elements of Mr. Barry's
satisfaction was the applause he received, not only of his
own countrymen, but of foreigners. who, without ex-
ception had expressed their admiration of the building.
He hoped the Noble Lord would grant a Committee
which would thoroughly investigate the question, and
prove that neither the architect, nor the Noble Lord,
nor he (Lord Lincoln) had been wanting in their duty
to the House of Commons, but rather that the House
of Commons was wanting in duty to itself and the
country. _ _ _

Mr. G. THOMPSON conceived that no satisfactory
answer had been given to the question put to the Go-
vernment, either respecting the cause of delay, or the
excess of expenditure over the original estimate. As
for Mr. Barry's abilities and fame as an architect, no
ono had disputed them, and the remarks made in their
defence were therefore thrown away. He wanted to
know whether there was to be any authority responsible
for the future expenditure of the building ?
Mr. ENVART advocated inquiry by a Committee.
Mr. BANKES considered that the time was come
when that House ought to cheek the public expenditure.
He objected to a Committee, and did not agree with the
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, that they
ought to concentrate the expenditure in this instance,
but, on the contrary, if the expense must be gone on
with, that it should be spread over as wide a period as
possible.
After a few words from Mr. A. HOPE,
Mr. DRUMMOND demanded a simple reply to the
simple question, " who was responsible for the excess of
expense over the estimate," but no reply being given,
The SPEAKER put the question that the House re-
solve itself into a Committee on•—

THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.
The Earl of LINCOLN said he felt it necessary to
interpose some remarks at this stage of the Bill ; and
proceeded to show that the present constitution of New
Zealand, although correct and beautiful in the abstract,
was yet so erroneous in form, so theoretical in its appli-
cation, and had been so universally condemned by
Members of that House, and by those competent to form
an opinion out of it, as to justify a discussion of the
question upon the present Bill, in order that they might
consider what had been the errors already committed
by the Government, and what was their best remedy.
The Noble Lord referred to former debates, to show that
the opinion of the House had been in favour of a repre-
sentative government for New Zealand, beginning
with municipal institutions. The Right Honourable
Baronet the Member for Tamwoith had stated that
he regarded municipal institutions as the germ of
representative government. The Noble Lord (the
First Lord of the Treasury) had said that a muni-
cipal constitution was the proper prelude to a repre-
sentative constitution. He moreover distinctly
stated, that he did not anticipate that it would
be wise or desirable that a colony should at once jump
from a state of despotism into an elaborate and fine-
drawn constitution. Such a constitution had not been
desired by any party, or any Member of that House ;and
in a petition presented by Lord Howick, in July, 1845,
asking for a representative government, without distinc-
tion of race, the petitioners stated that, looking to the
ignorance of the lower orders, it was desirable that the
local constitution of the country should be as little de-
mocratic as possible, and should be composed of persons
having an interest in common with the colonists, and not
of strangers who went there in search of place and salary.
How disappointed must those petitioners have been when
they received at the hands of the Noble Lord through
whose instrumentality they had made known their sen-
timents, a constitution which they now perceived had not
attained the objects intended by it—a constitution which
might be said to ho half American and very little Eng-
lish. He (Lord Lincoln) regretted that the Noble Lord
had acted with such extraordinary haste, and without
obtaining the opinion of the Governor,lof the colonists, or
of residents in this country competent to advise upon it.
The machinery of that constitution, :though perhaps
perfect in itself when put into operation, was found
wholly inapplicable. The Noble Lord, for instance,
proposed a franchise intended to be democratic, being
limited only by the ability to read and write English ;
but if ever there was a plan devised to produce, not an
amalgamation as anticipated by the Noble Lord, but a
war of races, this was the plan ; for, according to the
authority of Captain Grey, not one of the natives
could read or write English. This suffrage was there-
fore limited to a small minority of English settlers, and
the entire natives deprived of it. The Noble Lord, too,
had had his attention drawn to these and other points by
four leading colonists resident at the time in this country
in a report containing their objections to his proposed
constitution. They were most anxious that these cor-
porations should have a more extensive bearing. The
Noble Lord had proposed the establishment of these
corporations in some few districts of the colony ; they
were to consist of mayor, aldermen, and burgesses, who
were to elect the Parliament of New Zealand, or Provincial
Assembly. Besides these, the Governor was to appoint
two legislative councils, who were to elect another; and
thus the system was one of great complexity. The
franchise for the election of the corporations had been
strongly objected to by the gentleman he had before
referred to, on the ground of the electors being subject
to undue influence. In the election at Wellington,
where there were 355 electors, an influential man had
made 25 of them drunk, and led them up to the poll to
vote at his dictation. Surely this system wan not so
much approved of in this country as to warrant its in-
trod into a Ca.- at. colony.---(Hear, hear.) Aleut
ti, • •io Lord (grey) succeeded to the
~; Fre.--('ltrch cleists prepared
to leave Scotland for New Zealand, on t e understand.
ing that they would there find representative institu-
t

Lions. At the close of the session of 1846, the Noble
Lord's Bill having passed, and they Laving received
the assurance of a representative constitution, they
sailed for Otago, where, he believed, they had now
arrived.

Mr. AGLIONBY—They are now on the sea.
Lord LINCOLN—At all events, when they arrived,
they would find that the constitution on the faith of
which they emigrated was suspended for five years.
Mr. M. MILNES—They have gone to the southern
island.

Lord LINCOLN—But it Ns as well known that the
suspension of the constitution applied alike to all parts
of the colony. Governor Grey had taken the view
which all the world took, and at once suspended this
constitution as impracticable. It was condemned here,
and condemned there—all the New Zealand papers
were oppose&to it. It Ras on the suggestion of thelGo-
vernor that this constitution was now to be suspended
for five years. To this he should not object, were the
interval occupied in deviiing some more practicable
messure ; but a suspension implied an abstract approval
of the constitution. Rather let the Government confess
in substance, what was confessed in spirit, that the
thing was wholly inapplicable to the colony, and repeal
it at once. He recommended this, because he was
anxious to see the colony in possession of a real repre-
sentative constitution.—(Hear, hear.) As to the fitness
of the colony for receiving such a constitution, the
Governor had expressed a very decided opinion ; to
the southern island especially, he thought such a consti-
tution might safely and properly be granted. Probably
it would be urged, that uniformity was a reason for
suspending the constitution in the whole of the colony ;
but it was extremely likely that, before the Bill now
under discussion arrived in the colony, the representative
constitution, bad as it was, would have been established
in the southern island. The uncertainty in which these
continual changes involved the colonists was a great
evil. At one time a representative constitution founded
on universal suffrage was given them; then the whole
power was vested in the Governor, who might grant or
refuse such constitutions at his pleasure. This was a
very unfair responsibility to cast on an individual •, and
the Noble Lord (Grey) seemed sensible of that. By the
fifth clause of the Bill before the House the Governor
was even authorised to regulate the qualification of the
burgesses. In this country such a power would be
thought most unconstitutional and improper, and would
be regarded in the colony with great distrust. The
Noble Lord in his dispatch empowered the Governor to
grant '.;senses to vote; and though such a power would
donbtless be properly exercised by Governor Grey, yet
he was not immortal, and his successor might be less
judicious.—(llear, hear.) Upon the whole, ho
thought it would be far better to withdraw his
Bill, and bring in one of ono clause, entirely repealing
the Act of 1846, and empowering the Governor to
establish suitable municipal institutions in the whole
colony. It was evident from the Governor's recent
dispatches, that the colony was in a very critical state;
and on this ground he had avoided the introduction of
many exciting topics, being sincer;ly desirous to see
past errors corrected. As the Government valued the
peace of the colony, and the well-Leing of those emi-
grants who had gone thither on the faith of enjoying a
representative government, he hoped they would early
consider the question, and not let the matter rest where
it was till the five years had nearly expired.

Mr. LABOUCHERE assured the Noble Lord that
ho was fully sensible of the importance of the subject;
but he thought many of the points now urged would be
better discussed in Committee. He hoped the whole of
the time of the House would not be consumed in preli-
minary discussion. He would not revive the discussion
on the land question, but would assure the House that
there existed not the smallest difference of opinion be-
tween the Noble Lord at the bead of the Colonial De-
partment and Governor Grey on the subject of the waste
lands. This was confirmed by a letter which had been
received in this country from a missionary in New Zea-
land. On a former occasion he (Mr. Labouchere) had
said he could not acquit the Bishop of New Zealand
of indiscretion : he must now express, on his own part,
and that of the Noble Lord (Grey) their thanks to
the Right Reverend Prelate for his successful exertions
towards effecting a settlement of the differences which
existed with the missionaries on the subject of the
grants.—(Hear, hear.) As the present Bill proposed
the suspension of the constitution, he did not feel it
necessary to answer seriatim the objections which had
been raised against it bi the Noble Lord opposite.
Otherwise it would not have been difficult to defend the
steps which had been previously taken by Government.
The Noble Lord had come into the Colonial office at the
end of a session of Parliament, and found the Govern-
ment pledged to grant representative institutions to New
Zealand. He had accordingly sent out this constitu-
tion; but it was to his credit that, as soon as it was
found inapplicable, he had directed its suspension.—
(Hear, hear.) As to the Scotch emigrants, it could not
be made matter of complaint on their account that,
when they arrived in the island, they found that
institutions which were inapplicable to the colony
had been suspended. All were agreed that this con-
stitution should be either suspended or abolished;
but; to adopt the recommendation . of the Noble Lord
opposite for the withdrawal of this Bill would be
extremely unwise.—(llear, hear.) It was true that
extraordinary powers were proposed to bo given to the
Governor, but this was the only course which could
safely and promptly be adopted for putting the colony
in possession of suitable representative institutions.
The population would thus be prepared for the posses-
sion of such institutions; and the Governor might gradu-
ally introduce such widening of the franchise and exten-
sion of liberties as he might see to he desirable. Gover-
nor Grey said that the southern part of New Zealand,
where the majority consisted of white inhabitants, and
where the aborigines were but few, was fitted to receive
free institutions, but it was not ripe for such as they
possessed at home.—(" Hear, hoar," from the Opposi-
tion.) The Nobie Lord called this a " hybrid constitu-
tion. He (Mr. Labouchere) did not defend it as a per-
manent system, but it was a constitution, however, that
was not unknown in the colonies; and, recollecting that
the Noble Lord was a member of a Cabinet which,
under the auspices of Lord Stanley, had sent out a con-
stitution exactly similar to Newfoundland, after suspend-
ing a more popular one, he was surprised that the Noble
Lord should call it a hybrid constitution. A similar con-
stitution was established in Guiana, and it existed at that
moment in New South Wales. This Bill would empower
the Governor to increase the number of the legislative
council, which was desirable, because it was proper that
he should surround himself with the best local advice,
when so much responsibility was thrown upon him.
There were to be provincial councils, into which he
might infuse as much or as little of the popular element
as he thought fit. All this was to be done by ordinance,
but it was to be subject to the approval of the Crown.
The Noble Lord laid great stress on the preservation of
municipal institutions. But the Bill before the House
slid not interfere with the establishment of municipal
institutions. He had stated the reasons why
he did not think the proposal of the Noble Lord was so
good as that of her Majesty's Government, which he
considered would lead to such free institutions in New
Zealand as would be consistent with their welfare and
safety.
The House then went into Committee. Clausrs 1,
2, and 3 were agreed to. On elato:e 4 being proposed,
Mr. GLADSTONE said he wished to point to
something which appeared to bim to be defective in
the framing of the Bill. The Right Hon. Gentleman
defended the suspension of the Bill rather than its
held out to the people
g
roefpNeael,wonztehaelagurdoutnhde thhaopt,ehaovrin
free institutions, they
ought not to do anything to create a doubt of their
intention to carry them into effect as soon as pos-
sible. Now, he could not see that the passing of the Bill
of 1846 had furthered the cause of free institutions in the
colonies. On the contrary, he thought it rather tended
to damage that cause. The promulgation of the consti-
tution had proved a serious cause of danger to the co-
lony,reoavto an impression on the part of the natives
that the constitution would place power in the hands of
the settlers, or from a feeling on the part of the settlers
that they would be excluded from participating in it, in
we in idng excited grave apprehensions—whether these
consequence of the clause requiring reading and writing
as a necessary qualification for the elective franchise, he
did not know. He was afraid, therefore, that its mere
suspension would leave some of that excitement which
There might be a
retaining it in the
statute-book. The present measure, however, was not
balancemen a c e d o
f the
theoreticalpeac e of
advantagethe
ia
the one which Governor Grey asked for. He drew a
distinction between the north and south of the colony,
and requested the Secretary of State to ask Parliament
to conform ,its proceedings to that distinction. But the
Governaseat did not recognise that distinction, and
responsibilitythey
threwupoof
dnrGawoving ernothreGdriesinction between they single-handed the
t
north and south. He confessed he very much doubted
the wisdom of such a course.
Mr. LABOUCHERE remained unconvinced of the
advisability of the course which the Right Ron. Gentle-
man suggested. The Right Hon. Gentleman thought
that the Government should lay down the outline by
which the Governor was to be guided , but he (Mr. La-
bouchere) was of opinion that it was much wiser, in the
circumstances of the colony, to throw the discretion on
the Governor; and the council, rather than undertake
themselves what was a most difficult thing namely, to
lay down exactly what should be done with respect to
institutions which after all must be but temporary. With
regard to the feeling of apprehension arising from the
constitution being only suspended, he did not think
that there was any ground for alarm as to the effect of
the new institutions on the rights of the aborigines.
Mr. DISRAELI asked, was it to be endured that
a Colonial Minister was to make the debut of his
official career by sending out a measure which the
local authorities were obliged to scout ? This was
an act of legislation produced by one of the most
enormous errors ever perpetrated by a Secretary of
State. The very name of New Zealand was synonymous
with wholesale jobbing and official ignorance; but the act
of the Colonial-office with respect to it was worse than
all the other instances of official ignorance that ever
came to his knowledge. It was only last session the
grants were obliged to be made in order to stifle the
complaints of people who could justly Complain of official
mismanagement. They were about to begin this session
by passing another Act to save a Minister. This was
nothing else than an attempt to save Earl Grey's
reputation. Seve him if possible by argument, but let
them not brag the house of Commons through the mire
in order to silence complaints of one of the most
scandalous acts ever perpetrated by a Minister of the
Crown.
Mr. V. SMITH tbought, when an Hon. Member de-
nounced so violently the acts of a Minister of the Crown
he ought to have borne in mind what was the state of
:he colony when the constitution of EA-1 Groy was pro-
mulgated. That constitution lay 0. no tablo of th
House all last sossion, and n'aas upuz; . ved on by the
Noble Lord or the Hon. Member opposite. .',
I
Mr. LABOUCHERE oonsidoe4 tkitt, it.iTits a very
• ~.,