The Sun.
London, England, 1848-06-17 00:00:00

Ore
Ysas soon as the Noble Lord had moved for it it was
)i" Lao the copyist's hands, and so far as ho (Mr.
soe.ese
)
knew no unnecessary delay had taken place
eohTyliag it before the Committee. A question of dates
kr, d hot be easily settled off hand. but this he would
''' in his place in Parliament, that there had been no
Withhold'
rah, ing of information, and that never had a Com-
,, Lee been furnished with such a flood of information.
es Could assure the House, upon his honour, that it
ksoser was the intention to withhold dispatches for one
teeeniseut and therefore he thought be was entitled to
ti,_ s_with some degree of indignation the accusation of
faith Ible Lord.—(Hear, hear.) He should take care to
in himself with the dates a future day, and
tepacrit,l,cneantime content blasthimsel(y ting in his place
Parliament that there never had been the slightest
kitsilete4uu of withholding information from the Cora-
4,114r' DISRAELI was of opinion that the Hon. Unde.r-
tlieeeturY had exhibited an unnecessary degree of n-
o,.
_tion. Did he mean to say that the dispatch
he
d-6lr e• Grey had been presented in good time to t
uestunlittee ?
eat le
to sem' ee„ &YVES had not understood that the dispatch
tes'aTia,,"°,ti was called for in the first instances. Subse-
PateV the Noble Lord moved for a great many dis-
-I:rikrateeesba',Thttanndds.they were immediately placed in the
Iseerp; —eSRAELI did not think that the Hon. Under-
obsarY had bettered his position by his interlocutory
its rvation.—(llear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman d,
fostilliitness before the Committee, been asked forknre"°n which he, as a member of the Government,
toe Care possessed. He evaded the question, and chose
heurta‘ It that it referred to a mere routine report.—(Hear,
ant Vs, Flo was asked whether he was in possession of
lieerrmation of importance, and he declined to men-
tois7,, dispatch which had been alluded to by the Noble
tt.",:?. Member for King's Lynn.
hew- nAWES—I stated that some dispatches had been
d.
k,te
e,_seISRAELI—Yes; but the Hon. Under Sesre-
eoe'es`u°nght the dispatch of Sir C. Grey of so little
heoluelice as not to require especial mention.—(Hear,
14 r:' l'ho great question was whether the dispatch
eeesauiestion would or would not have influenced the
cell °n of the Committee.—(Hear, hear.) If be. re-
teected right, the Right Hon. Member for Cambridge
University had asked for the dispatch.
IN; 11_, AWES—The Right Hon. Gentleman was pre-
the ill', would answer for himself. He had understood
eall -gut Ron. Gentleman to ask for what was techni-
iteetcalled the blue book, and had, therefore, answered,'
seuly, that it was not in his possession.
tars GOCLBURN said that the Hon. Under Secre-
te fliZust have misunderstood the question he had put
Ger.l•---(Hear, and laughter.) He had asked whether
Qey'ornaient had received any information from the
;list/e,rn °r, of Jamaica which would throw light on the
hear-,en state of that colony.—(Loud cries of " Hear,
He owned he had been surprised when subse-
be lsaw the dispatch of Sir C. Grey.—(Hear.)
Wh4ier; DISRAELI was quite satisfied with the answer
Ca the Right Hon. Member for the University of
.6 had made to the appeal of the Honourable
pesuoceir Secretary.—(Hear, hear.) But nobody had sup-
row' that a statesman of that Right Honourable Gentle-
fe. talent and experience would be so green as to ask
hat? blue book.—(A laugh.) The question was, as he
kit been
stated, whether an important document had
net been withheld, and whether, if produced, it would
the cure had an important influence on the decision of
Withi"ornittee.—(Hear, hear.) All that had been said
tl4t 41 the previous few minutes went to confirm the
eetlinent which had been made by his Noble Friend,
Pre " (111 r. Disraeli) would leave the question for the
thtent between the Honourable Under Secretary and
Co 'tight Honourable Member for the University of
Ittlihrl
adee•
413 It was not his intention to prolong the dis-
-Bjr,
the non the general question, but remembering that
the was to sail on the following day, he thought
tiet;lll 11 expression of opinion should not be deferred
Monday. He protested against the course of the
of°rernnaent. They might have adopted the suggestion
hy Comnaittee, or they might have adhered to the
pise! a 1846; but they had done neither. They had
reaTred in a double sense, and while unfaithful to poll-
(11,-,` economy, had been equally false to profection.—:
it -ciectionist cheers.) As the packet was about to sail
was but right that the colonists should know that .a
toll
that House were not equally unfaithful to their in-
a"ta--that some looked upon the proposition of the
a•Prhinent as devoid of every statesmanlike quality,
e
as unlikely to lead to any result.--(hear, hear.)
ghat was the question as between the English people
art Wa the question as between the English people
b the colonies? The English people, as represented
the Parliament and Government, had entered into a con-
',act with the sugar growing colonies in 1834. They
enolished slave-labour, and in return promised them an
ahead
supply of free labour and a market. To that
teclatract there were four conditions, and three of them
("tiude.._b,een violated by the British Government.—
haTbe Noble Lord had said that
t ar hear.)
great object of the Bill of 1846 was to secure
Cheap
th p sugar tothe
tern--in
principle, why
.not relieve the people in other mat
"a---in taxation, for instance? Why not sponge off the
national debt, and thus relieve the people from a great
Portion of their taxation? By following up a high tone
of morality, a greater fiscal result might be accomplished
than
the colonial catastrophe which was now being
s ac-
e°in pl.I he d No one had told the House why the con-
tract
with
our colonies had not been fulfilled. The
Honourable Member for Manchester had spoken of re-
lief to his suffering constituents through the medium of
'heap sugar. No doubt they were suffering, but so were
the colonists, and in both cases from the legislation of
the Honourable Member and his school.—(Hear, bear.)
There was one consideration which had been touched
Upon by the Noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn,
.i.aed which he (Mr. Disraeli) trusted would never
omitted from the discussion of this question.
The West India colonies must not be permitted
t° perish altogether.—(Hear, hear.) They had ex-
alted for some centuries, had achieved a consi-
derable degree of civilisation, and had brought,
the land into a high state of cultivation. Therefore
notwithstanding our political economy and perfidy, it was
„°,t Possible to suppose that they would or could come to
ester desolation.—(Hear, hear.) But how were they to
tr°sPer They must be supported by some metro-
rtitan authority. Dependencies they were, and mustb
es, remain so ; and depend upon it, that if forsaken y
but a million of men would not perish without a struggle,ts
tit would seek eneouragement and support from ran -
4htlantie powers.—(Hear.) But were they even securing
the present poposal ? He remembered
Illsitt."euggsgaildr iny 1846 that the history of men was the
e:e°7 of reaction, and that the Noble Lord replied in a
ellZell full of habeas corpus and the rights of man ;
obwunt
ee,-1.1 two years after, the Noble Lord himself came d
"u retro t' e policy.—(Hear.) The fact was, that
All „ -RC iv
in favour
time we had been establishing differential duties
re-,arour of Cuba and the Brazils—in fact, establishing a
tir°Poly for the slave-growing countries. (Heber.)
Right Hon. Member for Cambridge University had
leaeihed the moral blot of this case. If there had beeneno
lairiement, or more unfortunate still, no reporters, they.
pupa have got cut of the scrape ,• but forty years of
foru,lie meetings, forty years of platform oratory, and
th "3' Years of ministers of state raised to office through
tbiadvocacy of the abolition of slavery, were traditions
,
would not easily be forgotten by the people.
Among other things, the distinguished part taken in that
agitation by the Society of Friends would not be for-
; and therefore when he saw in the Hon. Member
s 'Blanchester the eloquent advocate of slave-grown
sugar, when ho heard him tell the people that all they
t hor ee to look to wan the cheapness of the article, he
ught he was justified in saying that the present was
an e._
of
remarkable reaction.—Hear, hear.) Tho Go-
,_rnrnent which had brought in the Bill of 1846 were
w
obliged to come forward with a remedial policy.—
ylear, hear.) What would the people of England think,
1;111,1 they found that the free-trade policy had so soon
but °ha down ?—(llear.) He had not the slightest doubt
tbatt at when they had free-trade prices of corn, and
Manchester
agricultural distress which the Hon. Member for
f;tenchester had described with so much unction, and on
!lele..anticipation of which he had gloated with so much
1111g—when they had cheap provisions consentaneous
With commercial de •
sression and colonial total want of business ruin, and a
Would regret the polies intothroughout the
talked,country they
and the false system ofy wb which they hatdorbeseonme
.me
pporters.—(Hear,
been suhear.)
theyHheadshoold
give his
ilitnsioon on the Government pla•or.)osal at the proper time;
far as his voice went, he wished to let the colonists
*now that
of he
the Under-Secretary's lime entered a protest as indignant as that
es_ er-s ecretary's against a measure brought for-
tblrset under circumstances he believed unprecedented in
aerairtrY, with reference to colonial legislation, mi-
._ y feeble in conception, and leading, se he believed,
Vloutter disappointment and unparalleled failure.—(The
ta. Gentleman was loudly cheered by gentlemen on the
rotectionist benches as he resumed his seat.)
thet °lll J• RUSSELL—In asking the House to adopt
t Proposition which I have laid before it, I
ventured
o
bee quest the House to follow si::courseeesdecl! has
ellen usual in this year, and to wait for another
day
e' that •only after a two days' interval—before d
is-
nss the merits of the proposition. But Honour-
able Gent Gentlemen have not taken that course, and, like
_
Ossf lion. Friend the Member for the University of
°rd, and the Hon. Gentleman who has just sat
/Zu, each has made his comments in regard to the
aermeelPie and general purport and effects of this in
teae-
lien. must first take notice of the speech of
.h
he e Member who has just sat down, because I think
er,'as shown pretty clearly what is to be the nature
thol'ue debate and discussion which is to come 'before
tle 'louse on Monday next.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gen-
ar4ll, says that the reaction which he prophesied in
as coming and he explained what he meant by
eat! reaction, because he went on to say that these
'ePaercial principles, which had received their com-
pletioners in 184 e, were now, in 1848, to have the
predicted of their overthrow. He foresaw and
y,reclicted that the corn-laws would be again remedied,
that there would be new duties imposed upon the admis-
,i 111, of foreign corn, and that all those commercial prin-
(Vs which have received the sanction of this House
dee'Sng the last seven years are to be overthrown by the
Isi°ll of this House in this and future years. I think
the
°C oHouse may see from that what are the expectations
thetis 'lon. Gentleman, and in what view he will support
Lc; Propositions of the Committee, of which the Noble
(We" the Member for King's Lynn was the chairmFe—
ar, hear.) I certainly had not understood, until the
t• Gentleman spoke, or at least until the Right Hon.
entlenian the Member for Stamford spoke, what that
ies
°Wk. Was. I had supposed that they meant that there
tits to be a duty of 10s. per cwt. for six years, and that
that duty was to expire, or gradually to b
diminishesthat until equal duties were to be established. If
were the proposition, it would be one to which I
certainly
se—
i,i should not much object on account of the
en it would impose, for it would not be very different
ia
t 4 an
to the measure of 1846—it would be looking
an equalization of the duty. But the Right Hon.
gentleman has
explained that his object is to restore

protection altogether—(Hear, hear) —to prevent the
introduction of any foreign sugars, only under
such a differential duty as would render it difficult for
the people of this country to obtain them—to give to the
colonies, in fact, a permanent protection of a certain
amount, and in that way only, we have been told, can
the prosperity of the colonies be secired. —(Hear, hear.)
I am not sorry to hear this, because at least it shows
what is the measure which is to be discussed. Now
what are the two propositions then between which the
House will have to decide? They are, first, the propo-
sition of the Government modifying the Act of 1846 on
the one hand, and the proposition on the other hand that
there should be a permanent differential duty of 10s. per
cwt., levying thereby a very considerable tax upon the
people of this country. My Hon. Friend, the Membe
for the University of Oxford, expressed great indigne-
r
tion that I had not touched upon the question of the
slave-trade. I really thought that the whole of my
speech was an attempt to s;mw that the measure which
I had the honour of proposing would enable colonies of
this country with their free labour to compete with the
sugar of the slave colonies of other countries; and that
if we did that, if we were successful in that object, we so
far encouraged free-labour sugar and discouraged slave-
labour sugar. It is not for me now to say whether that
measure will be efficient for that object; but I will repeat
that the object I had in view was to encourage free-
labour sugar, and to discourage slave-grown sugar.—
(Hear, hear.) No one could doubt either that your pro-
position, as I had before understood it, of continuing the
10s. duty for six years only, would, at least so I sup-
posed, have had a similar object in view. That would
not have been a permanent protection ; but it would
have had the same object of enabling our colonies by
a sufficiency of free labour to supply free sugar cheaply,
and to compete with advantage with slave holding
colonies. But I must confess—and after all I have
heard I almost feel humbled in confessing it—l
must confess I thought there were two parties whose in-
terests I was to keep in view in framing any measure
upon this subject—one was, the great mass of the la-
bouring population in our colonies, amounting to at least
nine-tenths of the whole people, and the greater part of
whom had formerly been our negro slaves ; while the
other body, whose interests were concerned, and whose
interests I oughtlo consult, were some 99-100ths of the
people of this country, who were deeply interested in
the price of an article for which they paid twelve
millions sterling a year, and of which they consumed
300,000 tons or 6,000,000 cwt.—(Cheers.) I thought
this question was a difficult one, and though I
did not pretend to frame a measure which should please
all parties, yet that I had not been altogether unsuc-
cessful as regarded those two interests.—(Hear, hear.)
The labourers in the West Indies, it was acknowledged,
have been in the best condition, the best fed, the best
clothed of any peasantry in the world. There was a
resolution in the Committee of 1842 that the measure
of emancipation had completely succeeded so far as the
welfare of the negro was concerned. I believe the Noble
Lord the Member for King's Lynn moved a similar re-
solution. We have it amongst the evidence that at first
after their emancipation the degree in which they car-
ried their luxury in dress was most vain and extra-
vagant. We have heard of a woman wearing a dress
worth fifty pounds, and such like things, showing how
well they were able to afford the luxuries in which
they indulged. I believe, then, that even if this
measure were to discourage the cultivation of sugar,
if even the greater part of those persons were not
to be employed in the cultivation of sugar, yet that
there are in the West Indies means now for their
support, that the whole effect of the Act of 1834 would
be, that from the wretched state of slavery which they
suffered under the command and lash of their masters,
they had been converted into an independent, happy, and
comfortable peasantry.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, I
say, that in that respect, therefore,: there is no-
thing in my measure which militates against their
welfare. With regard to the other part, I propose that
sugar which now pays 14s. duty should have that duty
diminished to 10s. per cwt., and that foreign labour
sugar should also pay 10s., and that the whole tax upon
the whole of the sugar that comes into this country
should scarcely exceed ld. per pound. There is a pro-
vision for the welfare of that class. Now, it seems, from
the course of this debate, that the welfare of 9-10ths of
the population of the West Indies is not one for which
we are to care; that the welfare of 99-100ths of the
population of the United Kingdom is not one which
we should take into any reasonable account; but
that the owners of West Indian property, those
who have inherited or purchased their pro-
perty five or six years ago, as many have done,
that those are the persons for whose welfare this
House is to show any concern.—(Hear.) Now, I con-
fess myself somewhat humbled by that discovery. Either
I must be exceedingly wrong in having wished to pro-
vide for the welfare of the great mass of the people of
this country, or else the greater portion of those who
have taken part in this debate have an extremely mis-
taken view of the duty of this House to the millions for
whom they legislate.—(Hear, hear.) But there is one
great authority upon this subject—the Hon. Member for
Leominster (Mr. Barkly), whom, I confess, I was much
surprised to find arrayed against this measure. The
proposal of the Committee was a duty of 103., to con-
tinue for six years. Many other persons who have ex-
pressed their opinion to me have wished for the 10s. duty
for a much longer period. Now I have consulted the
evidence of the Hon. Member for Leominster, and I find
he said that any longer period of protection to the
amount of 10s. would tend to injure both the labourers
and the proprietors, and that if the protection of 10s.
were continued for two years, it would be useful in re-
viving industry, but if continued long it would have the
worst effect.
Mr. BARKLY—I said 10s. for ten years.
Lord J. RUSSELL—Yes; the Honourable Gentleman
says—" With respect to the amount of protection which
it would be desirable to reimpose, the opinion of my
friends both at home and abroad is, that the sugar
cultivation will not be maintained generally in the co-
lonies, unless at least a protection of 10s. a cwt., to
continue for a period of something like ten years, were
conceded. That is what they consider, both in London
and in the colonies, as their minimum. That opinion
of course has great weight with me, as coming from
men who are more extensively connected with the West
Indies than myself; but lam not quite sure that such an
amount of protection, for so long a period, would be for
the real advantage of the West Indies, if it were imposed
with the view of bringing them into competition with
slave labour at the end of that period. Ido not think
that it would put us in a better position at the end
of that time than we are in now." I know that some-
where the Honourable Gentleman says that if it were
imposed for only two years, the competition for la-
bour would be less intense than if imposed for ten
years. Then the Hon. Gentleman is asked—" The
effect of giving 10s. protection would be to give you a
better price for your sugar?—lt would raise the price of
sugar 4s. a cwt. in this market." That is a very clear
answer. The Hon. Gentleman admits very fairly that
the effect of that protection would be to raise the price
of sugar 4s. a cwt.; and of course the effect of giving
that protection is just the same as having a 4s. tax, only
that in the one case it is expended in the colony, and in
the other it comes into the Imperial Exchequer. The
next question he is asked is—" The effect ot giving you
a better price for your sugar, you think, would be that
the labourers in the colonies would demand an increase
of wages up to that point?—Not only would they de-
mand it, but the planters themselves would be disposed
to give it. The planters are not free agents exactly—
to
they are men with encumbrances, which they have
provide the meats of diminishing if they can,
therefore their great object is to make sugar
at any cost, and that has been one of the great causes
of the high wages. If all the proprietors had been
on the spot, wages would not have been so high. But if
the protection were to continue for a very limited period,
I do not think that would have the effect of impeding a
reduction of wages." The Honourable Gentleman hav-
ing given that evidence, I confess I did not think that
the proposition which I have now made would have met
with the reproach from him which ho has cast upon
it. But then the question which the House will have to
decide is with respect to this proposition of a 103. pro-
tective duty. A 10s. protective duty, as I con-
ceive, whilst it would be a very serious tax
upon the people of this country, would lead, as the
Honourable Gentleman says, to the giving of those
very high and extravagant wages, and instead of putting
the proprietors in a good position in the end, the whole
of what should otherwise be their profits would be con-
sumed by that competition for labour which is the re-
sult of high wages. I believe, therefore, that a 10i.
protective duty, while it would obviously be a very
serious tax upon the people of this country, would con-
fer no real benefit upon the labourer—that it would be
injurious to that very class for whose benefit it was
proposed, and who were the only persons whom it was
thought would benefit by that tax. The Honourable
Gentleman the Member for Montrose has declared like-
wise against the proposition of the Government, and if
I understand him, he is not content with suspending the
protection which at present exists, but would propose a
still higher rate of protection, for the purpose of saving
the colonies. Now, I think amongst other objections to
such a scheme, the evidence given by Mr. Jones, one of
the gentlemen to whom I referred in my opening state-
ment, affords a conclusive reason against such a propo-
sition. Mr. Jones said he should be sorry to see pro-
tection re-enacted in this country, because the colonists
would have no certainty that the law would not be
changed in a year or two—there would be constantly
struggles, and no security for capital laid out—there
would be a continued strife to maintain, on the one
hand, protection; and, on the other to overthrow it,
and the effect of this would be most injurious. Now
I think that the opinion of Mr. Jones is a most sen-
sible one, and I believe, if this House should agree
to raise the protection on sugar, to make it 103. in-
stead of what we propose, that the effect would bo a
renewed struggle—that there would not be that sue-
cessiUl reaction to which the Hon. Member for Bucking-
hamshire looks, but that all those who had supported a
free trade in corn and the diminution of the import
duties would struggle again for the diminution of that
duty, would struggle again to free the people of this
country from a tax which would be so onerous upon
and so grievous to the people.—(Hear, hear.) The
immense increase in the consumption of sugar, no less
than 80,000 tons in three years, is owing to the dimi
nution in the price alone; but if, on the contrary, you
re-establish protection and make sugar dear, you would
find that the consumption would immediately fall off.
It is astonishing how sensitive the market is in this
respect, and how much a small addition in price makes
a considerable difference in the consumption of articles
—not only ld. but even %d. and id. in the price of the
article cause a difference. Sir, I have felt bound to
make these remarks by reason of the length to which
this debate has extended. I shall be ready on
Monday to defend the plan which we have
proposed, as a plan which I believe will give
greater advantages to the West India proprietors than
they at present possess, whilst at the same time it will
not be injurious to the revenue. I am aware that

measures of this description, not making any great or
immediate difference, are liable to the imputation of
being a paltry measure of no avail; but I am convinced
that on questions of this kind it would not be wise either
to go to the one extreme or the other.—(Hear, hear.)
I think the immediate abolition of the present differential
duties would he as unwise a measure us a great measure
of protection. We propose that those differential duties
shall altogether cease in six years, and we give in the
mean time what we think to be reasonable an ample
protection to the West Indian proprietor.—(Cheers.)
My object was, that the great mass of the people, both
in the West Indies and this country, might have justice
done them. My object was, that free labour might be
able to compete with slave labour; and, so believing,
I shall, with confidence, submit these propositions to the
House.—(Cheers )
The motion that the House on Monday next resolve
itself into Committee on the sugar duties was then
agreed to.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL it was ordered
that the House at its rising do adjourn till Monday next.
THE NAVIGATION-LAWS.
The order of the day for going into Committee on
this subject bavino• been read,
Mr. berries, Mr. Newdegate, Lord G. Bentinek, and
Mr. Henley protested against commencing the debate at
so late an hour (half-past ten), when many gentlemen
had left the House, not expecting it would come on.
Mr. Labouchere, Mr. Hume, Mr. Aglionby, Lord R.
Grosvenor, and Lord J. Russell were anxious that the
discussion should proceed; and, after some conversation,
the House divided on the question that the Speaker do
leave the chair, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it
Majority .. —B7
The House then went into Committee, and
The CHAIRMAN having read the first resolution,
Mr. J. STUART cast blame upon the Government for
forcing the House into a discussion upon so important a
subject at half-past ten o'clock. Such a course was
neither decent nor proper, and ho must, therefore, move
that the Chairman report progress.
Mr. LABOUCHEIIE said he must, in return, blame
Hon. Gentlemen opposite for the courseithey were pur-
suing.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to remind the House
of the observation lately made by a worthy Alderman,
who said that, however opposed to the measures of the
Government, the last thing he should consider himself
justified in doing was to throw any obstacle in the way
of the consideration of' those measures, it being most im-
portant to the great interests concerned that the deci-
sion of Parliament should be known as speedily as pos-
sible.—(Hear, hear.) It should be recollected, also, that
these resolutions were only preliminary to a Bill.
Alderman THOMPSON did not repudiate the ob-
servation attributed to. him, but a great many Hon.
Gentlemen opposed to the resolutions having left the
House—(Cries of " Oh, oh")—under the impression
that they would not be brought forward that night, lie
must support the motion for reporting progress.—(Oh.)
Lord C. HAMILTON would also support that motion,
as he recollected no case of similar importance being
forced upon the House at so late an hour.
Mr. HUME urged upon the House that the present
stage of the question was only preliminary.
Mr. BROTHERTON said that it had been agreed
some time time since that these resolutions should be
passed as a matter of course—(" Hear, hear," and cries
of " No, no ")—and he could not denominate the present
opposition as otherwise than factious. If such au oppo-
sition had been given to the Government of Sir R.
Peel, there would have been a general outcry to the
effect that they were stopping the business of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) His belief was that Hon.
Gentlemen opposite had determined that the Govern-
ment should not pass any measure this session, and
then at the end of it ask in a tone of censure what had
been done? The answer would be what the Speaker
said to Queen Elizabeth when she asked him what her
Commons had passed, namely, that they had passed six
months and done nothing.—(A laugh.) He never knew
a session so characterised by useless discussions as the
present.
Mr. ROBINSON said his answer to the Hon. Gentle-
man's rebuke was, that her Majesty's Government were
responsible for bringing forward at so late a period of
the session a question which had been particularly men-
tioned in the speech from the throne. He should offer
every opposition in his power, even at the risk of its
being called factious.—(lronical cheers.)
Mr. HENLEY supported the motion for reporting
progress.
Mr. RICARDO considered it most important that the
details of the measure should be before the public as
soon as possible. This was most essential for the in-
terests of trade and all parties affected by the naviga-
tion-laws.
Mr. HUDSON said be believed that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Stoke did not speak the sentiments of the ship.
owners of England, who thought that delay would be
of great value to them, as they conceived that the effect
of the public knowing the intentions of the Govern-
ment would be to disabuse the public mind. He thought
that the minority had a right to take that course which
they thought most wise, provided they did not abuse
the forms of the House.—(lronical cries of " Hear.")
Considering the delay, for which the Government
were responsible, in introducing the measure, they
ought to be the last persons to complain of it now. He
asked the Hon. Member for Salford, and the Hon. Mem-
ber for Montrose, whether they ever recollected a mea-
sure of this importance being introduced at so late a
period of the session, with any prospect of its being
passed ? He had hoped that the President of the Board
of Trade would have announced that he meant to lay
the Bill on the table, and take no further steps this ses-
sion. The Hon. Member proceeded, amidst repeated
cries of " Question" and " Divide," to observe that he
believed that the Government had had no serious or
honest intention of bringing in the Bill, and would not
have taken the matter up if it had not been for the
impulse they received from the Right Hon. Member
for Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) and other Members on the
Opposition side of the House. Ho should like the Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade now to say when the Bill
would be introduced. Who asked for the measure ?
The Honourable Member for the West Riding of York-
shire, who assumed to represent the whole of Yorkshire,
though he did not, said that the whole people of England
desired the measure. Where were the petitions in its
favour? He appeared there in behalf of the shipwrights,
the sail-makers, the rope-makers, and other mechanics
of Sunderland, who would be thrown out of employment
if the present measure passed.—(Cries of " Qitestion.")
He wished the Noble Lord would keep his friends a
little quieter.—(Laughter.) He was speaking closely to
the question, and he could inform the House that he had
been informed the other day that a large mass of these
workmen were about to be discharged from their em-
ployment. He understood that the Hon. Member for
the West Riding had called upon the Chancellor of
the Exchequer and asked relief for the people of Brad-
ford in their distress, and was refused. If this-his
not correct, perhaps the HOD. Member would contradict
it; but, if it was true, he wished to know if he would
apply for the people of Sunderland when they were
thrown idle by this measure.—(Cries of "Divide.") It
would throw 20,000 people out of employment; and yet
he was met with cries of " Question" when he stood
up to advocate the interests of those parties, and
was accused of factious conduct. The truth was, he
was advocating the rights of the poor.—(" Oh, oh !"
and laughter.) Ho had given to the poor the means of
getting employment to a greater extent than had fallen
to the lot of many men ; and on this question he was
actuated by the same principle that had guided him
through life, and would not cease to contend against
the measure, as vicious in its character and adverse to
the interest of the poor, and also because her Majesty's
Government had been goaded on to it.—("n Oh, of
h !"
and " Divide.") It was, no doubt, part a parceof
their free-trade principle; but he should yet to live to
see a great revulsion of opinion on the question of free
trade.—(" Oh, oh !") In conclusion he would repeat
that it was his intention to give every possible opposition
to this measure.—(" Divide ! divide !")
Mr. SANDARS said an Hon. Gentleman had spoken
of factious opposition, but he hoped the imputation was
not meant to be cast upon him. He had voted in the
majority the other night, but would vote in the mino-
rity now, because he thought it was too late to bring
forward the question ; and he was anxious, as he knew
other Gentlemen were, to express his views on the
subject.
Mr. HUME wished to enter his protest against a prac-
tice which was indulged in by certain Hon. Gentlemen
of making constant personal allusions to other Members
of the House.—(Hear.) After 30 years' experience he
must say that he had never known any Hon. Member
come down after dinner, night after night, flushed—he
would not say with champagne--(Great laughter, and
cries of "Order.") The Hon. Member opposite (Mr.
Hudson) would excuse him for saying that the personal
allusions he was accustomed to make were very unfair.
Night after night the Hon. Member for the West Riding
and himself were called upon by name as often as
twenty times in the course of a speech. Now, he did
not think this was fair.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
It was breaking through the rules of the House, and
ho would appeal to Honourable and Right lion. Mem-
bers opposite whether it had ever been the practice
to act in such a manner.—(Cheers.) The question had
been asked of him if ever he saw a measure of such im-
portance brought forward at so late a period. Now, he
certainly should have liked to see the measure brought
forward earlier; but he did not see that that was any
good reason for not considering it now. The Hon.
Member for Sunderland had asked where were the peti-
tions for this measure; but he had forgotten that a public
petition was agreed to at Sunderland in its favour, and
that the workmen carried a resolution for the repeal of
these laws in his own borough.—(A laugh.) In these
circumstances the Honourable Member ought not to
speak of a want of petitions on the subject. What he
had risen to say, however, was, that he wished the debate
to go on without the use of personal allusions.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUDSON wished to say a word in explanation.
—(Cries of " Divide," and " Spoke.") Perhaps the
Hon. Gentlemen who cried "Spoke" and "Question"
thought the Hon. Member for Montrose was speaking to
the question when he told them about the champagne
that had been drunk.—(Great laughter.) He had not
been 40 minutes away from the House the whole evening.
—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member for Montrose, how-
ever, following the example of the Hon. Member for
Salford, who valued character as little as any man could
do, had thrown something like a reflection upon him ;
and perhaps, considering the time of life that Hon. Gen-
tleman had reached, a young man like him (Mr. Hudson)
might very well receive advice at his hands.—(More
laughter.) The Hon. Member seemed to have drawn
some inference from the dress in which he appeared (here
the Hon. Gentleman, with a good-humoured smile,
pointed, amid much laughter, to his white waistcoat), but
the truth was, that he had gone home to accompany his
family to another party.—(Roars of laughter.) Whether
he worn a white waistcoat or a waistcoat of any other
colour hai nothing to do with the present debate.—

(" Question.") When Hon. Members called " Question,"
they ought to recollect that he (Mr. Hudson) had never
attacked the Hon. Member for Montrose on account of
his wearing a white waistcoat or attempting to look a
little gay. Whenever he attacked the Hon. Member for
Montrose—or, rather, when he attacked the speeches of
that Hon. Gentleman—he did so upon public ground
Pablic principles and public conduct were the objects of
his attack. He never even referred to such things as the
Greek loan, but, on the contrary, confined himself to
more legitimate subjects.
Captain ELLIOT rose to order. It appeared to him
that the Hon. Member for Sunderland was addressing
himself to the Hon. Member for Montrose in a manner
too personal. He ought to address the chair.
Mr. HUDSON resumed—He had all along been ad-
dressing the chair. He had been saying that whenever
he made any observations upon the conduct of the Hon.
Member for Montrose he had strictly confined himself
to the public conduct of that Hon. Gentleman, and as to
what he had said about a chairman or a deputy-chair-
man, he must be permitted to observe that he merely
quoted what he had seen in the public papers. If the
Member for Montrose would repudiate those statements
that night, he (Mr. Hudson) would never say another
word on the subject; and, at all events, he should never
charge the Hon. Member for Montrose with having
dined out, or with ever having given a dinner to a
friend.—(" Hear, hear," and laughter.)
The gallery was then cleared for a division, but none
at that time took place; on the contrary, the debate
was continued, and several Hon. Members spoke,
amongst whom (as we understood) was the lion. Mem-
ber for the West Riding of Yorkshire. On our re-ad-

mission,
Mr. DISRAELI was saying that be heard the Hon.
Member for the West Riding accused of stimulating as-
sassination, and that accusation was echoed with frensied
applause.—(Hear, hear.) The person who made the ac-
cusation offered an humble apology to the Hon. Gentle-
man, and therefore he did not despair but the Hon.
Gentleman might yet regret that he introduced too
stern a spirit into the discussion, and perhaps make an
humble apology to the Hon. Member for Sunderland.
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it 144
Majority —96
Lord G. BENTINCK moved that the Chairman do
leave the'chair.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
site had certainly succeeded in their object of obstruct-
ing the Bill; but whether the time of the House could
not be better employed, and whether the discussion which
had taken place would redound to the credit of the
House, he would leave the House itself to determine.—
(Cheers.) At that hour he would not oppose the motion
of the Noble Lord.
Mr. DISRAELI denied that there had been any fac-
tious opposition to the Bill.
Lord G. BENTINCK said that the discussion was
caused by the Noble Lord the Member for Middlesex,
who had some time since retired to bed.
Lord J. RUSSELL said his Noble Friend would
have remained if the discussion which had taken place
was a discussion on the navigation-laws. But seeing
how the time of the House was wasted—(Loud cheers)
—he thought his Noble Friend acted wisely in retiring.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE thought that the blame of the de-
sultory discussion which had occupied the House lay
with the Government itself.
Lord G. Bentinck's amendment having been then with-
drawn, the Chairman reported progress, and obtained

leave to sit again.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Lord J. RUSSELL postponed his motion for a Bill to
repeal the ratepaying clauses of the Reform Bill until
Friday next.
The Prisons Bill was read a second time.
The Appeals on Civil Bills (Ireland) Bill was re-
ported.
The Commons Inclosure Bill was read a third time
and passed.
The Sunday Trading Bill was read a third time and
passed.

SPAIN.
Viscount PALMERSTON laid on the table additional
papers relative to the diplomatic relations of the British
Government with Spain, which were ordered to be
printed.
The other orders of the day having been disposed of,
the House adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock.
NATIONAL LAND SCHEME.

- • -- - - -
The Committee appointed to inquire into this scheme
re-assembled yesterday morning in Committee-room No.
21, House of Commons; Mr. W. Hayter in the chair.
Mr. M'Grath, the financial secretary, was called for
the purpose of being examined, when
Mr. FEARGUS O'CONNOR rose, and said he wished to
call the attention of the Committee to a violation of the
rules which they bad laid down when they commenced
their sittings, but he had no desire to complain of that
violation. Mr. Henley had made a proposition, in the
first instance, that the public should not be admitted,
but it was afterwards agreed that they should, the
Chairman being requested to place an injunction upon
the reporters, so that no report of their proceedings
should appear until the Committee had made their
report to the House. He now wished to state, but, as
be had already said, not to complain, that since the
passing of that injunction (as must have been known
to the Chairman, who virtually represented the Com-
mittee) garbled, scandalous, and fallacious reports had
appeared in the Morning Chronicle, Daily 1V ews, The
Sun, Manchester Examiner, and other papers, and no
attempt had been made on the part of the Committee
to remonstrate against such a system of reporting their
proceedings. Now, there was a newspaper which cir-
culated much more largely than any of those papers
among the parties who, were most interested in the in-
quiry before the Committee (The Hon. Gentleman
was understood to allude to the Northern Star as giving
the most correct account of the proceedings, but be was
interrupted by the Committee, who intimated that it
would be better to discuss the matter with closed doors).
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and upon
being re-admitted,
The CHAIRMAN said, on the 6th of June last a reso-
lution was passed that strangers should be admitted;
that the Chairman should ask leave of the House to
report from time to time to the House, and that the
Chairman be requested to inform strangers that it was
the desire of the Committee that no report of their
proceedings should be published before they had reported
to the House. It had been represented to the Committee
that the injunction imposed by them had not been at-
tended to, and that the unfair, partial, and garbled
statements, called reports of the proceedings before the
Committee, had been published contrary to their express
directions, and therefore the Committee were compelled
to adopt the only alternative in consequence of that
violation, and to order that the public should be ex-
cluded.
The persons present then retired, and the examination
of Mr. M'Grath was proceeded with with closed doors.