The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-21 00:00:00

we ought to say to the United States, "we will not admit
your produce until you solve the problem which now oc-
cupies the attention of the Anti-Slavery Society, of how
emancipation shall be brought about in the United
States." In fact, for the same reason that they ex-
cluded sugar they ought to shut out American cotton.
The same thing may be said with regard to many other
articles. With regard to copper ore, slave labour is
freely used in the production of that article, and
yet we do not exclude it, from our markets.—(Hear.)
Such is your position if you proceed on this exceptionary
rule in regard to the produce of foreign countries. But
you hase not been able to keep this ground in your
dealings with these countries. You have not been able to
supply yourselves only from your‘colonies in which slavery
does not exist, or from countries where free labour alone
exists.—(Hear, bear.) And in increasing your sup-
plies, you have been under the necessity of admitting
sugar from the countries where slavery, or something
approaching it, does exist, in order to meet the wants
of the markets of this country.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) In your dealings with these countries
you have not been able to carry out the principle
on which your present law is founded. You have not
been able to inquire whet is the peculiar state of society
in Java, or whether it is not a state of slavery, something
at least approaching to it. What the particular state of
society is in Manilla, you have equally failed in in-
quiring into. In obtaining a larger supply of sugar
from these countries, you have not ventured to act on
those principles of law upon which you have proposed
to act, but you admitted their produce on the faith of
the treaties you had with them ; you have admitted their
produce as: the produce of the most favourned nations,
and in competition with the produce of free
labour.—(Hear, hear.) I say you have admitted the
sugar of these countries, and though the qaantity intro-
duced may not have been great, still you have backed
out of the strict principle which you have laid down.
There can be no doubt of this. But in doing this you have
refused to Spain the advantages which you have given
to other countries. Spain claimed, under the treaty
with her, the right of sending produce to this
country on the footing of the most favoured nations.
You have, in agreement with your principle,
been obliged to refuse, though the act, I am
bound to say, does not redound much to the
honour of a great country like this.—(Agar. bear-)
It was shown by the Spanish Ministers two years ago,
that within the last ten years Spain has claimed the
benefit of the treaty of being admitted on the footing
of the most favoured nations, but it has been repeatedly
refused.—(Hear, hear.) On this subject I cannot but be
of opinion that although the treaty with that country
might not strictly warrant its produce being admitted on
the most favourable terms, yet that the principle of the
most favoured nation ought to have been applied to it.
The same principle ought to have been applied to the fish-
eries of the two countries, at Ne w found land and elsewhere.
If the salt-fish of England, then the salt-fish of Spain
must be refused also; and the same rule must be applied
to the salt-fish of France. The Spanish Minister
said that he acknowledged the principle, but he said
also that these treaties required to be revised by
the different countries. That is the sum and
substance of the conversation between the Ministers
of England and Spain, proving sufficiently that
the opinions of English and Spanish Ministers were
against that state of things. Now, when persons
stand up for a permanency in these duties,
they must endeavour to find excuses for
their opinions. But there are further and more
vital objections against the admission of slave
sugars. They do, to a certain degree, diminish
the price of free-trade sugar even in Great
Britain ; but the resources of commerce
are injured, yet the spirit of commerce is too ener-
getic to be bound by the stipulations on this question.
But what do the merchants do ? They endeavour
to find markets in other countries ; they search
Europe ; they coast the Mediterranean; they reach
Petersburgh and other places, and in this way
they find markets for their slave-grown produce.
Now, Sir, this affects our markets ; it may be
in a very inconvenient way, and attended with a good
deal of loss to English commerce ; but still it does away
with the objection so often urged, namely, that no em-
ployment is given by England to the cultivation
of Cuba and Brazilian sugar. I see it sometimes said—
popularly said that this slave-grown sugar
is the produce of tyranny the produce
of crime—that it is so much stolen, material,
so much stolen goods, which it is asked
us to consume. ThiS is very well, but what would be
thought of a person who would come with a quantity of
stolen sugar—stolen from an adjoining warehouse—
who would come to a shopkeeper and offer it
for sale. The shopkeeper would say, "Why, these are
stolen goods ; I cannot buy them, but I have a
neighbour who has no scruples. I will direct
you to him, and be will buy ; I can pur-
chase from him again with the full drawback ;"
and by this proceeding the whole morality of the
affair is lost.—(hear, hear.) I therefore, Sir, for
these several reasons, on which I will not further
dwell, hold that the ground which has been
hitherto taken by the Governments of this
country has not been the correct one—(hear, hear)—
and that we must in this instance, as in the propositions
of the late government, adopt the principle of re-
moving all restriction, and of admitting the
people of this country to the best and cheap-
est markets ; and, acting on this principle,
we must admit the sugar of foreign countries into the
United Kingdom. But, Sir, while I say that you have
no sufficient grounds any longer to refuse to the people
This country that benefit—( Hear, hear. )—while you ought
not to deny to them the power of obtaining their sugar
at one million and a half, or two millions of money
less than the price that it now pays, there
are other considerations which indeed it would be improper
and imprudent to overlook, and which demonstrate that
such a change cannot take place immediately. It was
very fairly urged by the West India proprietors that the
change from slavery to freedom was an immense revolu-
tion, in affecting their interests and the market for labour ; the
revolution changed the produce of the growers from 4,000,000 to
2,500,000 in the course of a very few years ; and that even
your twenty millions of compensation, large and liberal as it
was, has not been a full compensation for the loss
which they have suffered.—( hear.) They say, moreover,
that having had to reconcile themselves to this great change,
and to employ persuasion where they had formerly used
compulsion—persuasion to entice them away from indolence,
which was natural to a people just made free—and that this
country did not allow them a full admission to the other markets
of the world where they could have obtained free trade. Now
I think they are somewhat justified in these complaints.
The jealousy of Parliament upon this question was the origin
and cause of the orders in Council which prohibited the pro-
curing any labourers from Africa. Such was the course which
led to the rejection of the complaints made in the House of
Lords of those orders in Council which prohibited the importation
of Hill Coolies from the East Indies into the West Indian colo-
nies. But it was not, however, the less a real grievance to
the proprietors of estates in the West Indies; nor should it be
urged as a claim against the equalisation of these duties with
the sugars of other countries. There were reasons also
connected with the revenue which should not induce
Parliament to sanction an immediate equalisation of the du-
ties. Any sudden change of duty would, no doubt, • most
seriously affect the revenue ; but it would also throw out of
cultivation some of our colonies, and consequently keep the
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but, considering that proposition, it appears to me
that by a slight increase of the prices of foreign sugar in
this country we shall entirely lose the benefit of such reduc-
tion both to the consumer and to the grower. The average
price of foreign sugar according to a printed paper laid on
the table of the House, on the motion of my Honourable
Friend the Member for Lambeth, was for brown or yellow
sugar 20s. sd. The average price of West India,
Mauritius, and East India sugar was 225. Bd.; these prices are
for the year 1845. Now, Sir, supposing the duty is 235. 4d.,
and the price of Manilla sugar should rise to 255., you would
then have the price of sugar to the consumer 48s. 4d., and we
should then be exposed to the same results which followed the
policy of the Right Hon. Baronet with reference tothis question.
I, therefore, pfbpose that in the present year, instead of the
duties of 635., a prohibitory duty, and a duty of 235. 4d.,
that on all foreign Museovado sugar there be a duty of 21s. per
cwt. I shall propose, too, that that duty should diminish
n the following manner :

for continuing the present duties for one month from the time
of their expiration, and resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.
The resolutions having been put,
Mr. GOULBURN said, he agreed with the Noble Lord
that this subject was one of the greatest importance in a com-
mercial, political, and moral sense, and he thought he
should best advance a fair discussion of the question
by forbearing to enter into any debate until a
future opportunity. lie should, therefore, confine
himself to asking the Noble Lord one question with respect to
a part of his statement, and upon which he did not correctly
understand him. The Noble Lord stated that with respect to
the colonial trade he would seek for an Act of Parliament to
empower the several colonies to repeal such portions of the
discriminating duty at present existing in those colonies
with regard to the produce of foreign countries and
the colonies. He did not understand whether it was
the Noble Lord's intention still further to give extension to the
colonial trade by promoting an intercourse in the produce of
those colonies with foreign countries, or whether it would be
confined to the ships of this country. This was an im-
portant point, and he shi uld therefore wish to know the in-
tention of the Noble Lord with respect to it.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, what he proposed to do was to
empower her Majesty to give her assent to those Acts of the
Colonial Governments with respect to the discriminating,
duties. He did not in any respect propose to alter the naviga-
tion laws now subsisting. He merely proposed to take the
power he had mentioned.
Lord G. BENTINCK said that he and the friends around
him, proposed to give their support to the Noble Lord, to the
plan which he had so ably and perspicuously laid down on the
whole, but there were two points on which they could not do so.
They would not consent to the removal of the protection which
the colonies had hitherto enjoyed. True to the principles
upon which they had acted on former occasions, his friends
around him were not disposed to consent to the admission of
slave-grown sugar on the same conditions as the produce of
free labour. They were determined, if possible to secure
to the East and West Indian colonial proprietors the pro-
tection which they had hitherto enjoyed.—(Hear, hear.)
His Noble Friend had said that, in his opinion, the agricultural
interest, having lost their protection, it ought to be a consolation to
them that they would have an opportunity,of obtaining their sugar
cheap. Now, he could tell his Noble Friendthat it would be no
consolation to them, that having lost their own protection they
would have an opportunity of robbing the East and West India
interest of their protection.—( Hear, hear.) A statement had
been made to the House to the effect that therewould be agreat
falling off in the supply of sugar from the colonies, but he
thought his Noble Friend had understated the quantity
of sugar that might be expected to be derived from
the East and West Indies for the years 1846-47.
His Noble Friend had stated the amount to he expected
from the Mauritius at no more than 50,000 tons, but from the
best information he could collect upon the subject he could say
that 60,000 tons would be the produce of the year. The Noble
Lord had stated the produce of,the East Indies at no more than
80,000, but he had every reason to believe that the produce of
the year would be 100,0013 tons for Bengal alone, exclusive of
the sugar that might be expected from Madras, which was
estimated at 60,000 tons.— (Hear, bear.) On these grounds
lie begged to intimate that he and his party were decidedly
opposed to the proposed change, and when his Noble Friend
moved his resolution it was his intention to propose an amend.
meet.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. BERKELEY said he should not be prepared to sup-
port the Government unless they made some arrangement for
supplying the colonies with labour. He for one was not averse
to the colonies entering into competition with the foreigner,
but first let them be placed in the position of the foreigner
with regard to the supply of labour.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL made an observation which did
not reach the gallery.
Mr. G. BERKELEY continued—Well then, if the Noble
Lord was prepared to do his best for supplying the colonies with
labour, he should have no difficulty in supporting the proposed
change.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. MOFFATT said he wished, with the permission of the
Committee, to ask the Noble Lord three questions. First,
whether it was bis intention to keep up the difference between
Muscovado and clayed sugar. Secondly, whether he intended
to keep up the existing duty on refined sugar ; and thirdly,
whether he intended to make any change in respect of double
refined sugars.—( Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, with
regard to the first question, he thought the distinction ought
not to be kept up, but until he had obtained further informa-
tion on the subject he could not promise a change. With re-
gard to the second question, it was intended to keep up the
duty • but with regard to the third, the same change would be
extended to double refined as was proposed to be applied to
other sugars.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. M. STEWART urged upon the Government the
necessity of doing away with the excise duty on rum altoge-
ther. A duty of Is. would still keep it out of Scotland and
Ireland, and it would depend upon the manner in which the
Noble Lord dealt with this article whether those who were in-
terested in the colonies would go along with him in his change
or not.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BERNAL said he had never been able to learn whether
the law imposed any restrictions on the use of sugar in
breweries ; and he would, therefore, now give notice of his in-
tention to enter upon this subject on some future occasion.
Mr. BERKELEY regretted that the Noble Lord had not
the power to make free trade more palatable to him.
Mr. EW ART would have preferred a more speedy settle-
ment of this question than that proposed by the Noble Lord.
He did not see why any distinction should have been imposed
on the importation of molasses. He hoped to see the time
when the people of this country would be in the enjoyment of
cheap sugar, and cheap food of every kind.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied to
the remarks of Mr. Stewart. He said that the tax on the im-
portation of rum was not imposed merely for the sake of re.
venue ; it was imposed principally with the view of admitting
rum and British spirits to be consumed tat the same terms.
In reply to Mr. HOPE,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the yearly contracts far
wine, to which he had alluded in his explanation, would be
sanctioned in Asia, Africa, and everywhere else.
Mr. BAILEY regretted that the settlement of this great
question had been delayed until so late a period of the session,
when it was well known 'that many of the members had left
London.

the various subjects on which the West Indian
body have stated that while they think that any equalisation in
the foreign and colonial sugars is unjust to them, and incon-
sistent with the policy which Parliament has hitherto sanctioned,
and yet, supposing it to be done, that there are claims which
they think they are entitled to make, and placing them on per-
fect equality as respects the production of other parts. The
first is, that subject which I have mentioned to the
House, the subject of emigration. 'We find, I remember myself,
when I was in the Colonial-offiee, we so far relaxed the orders
of Council, which have hitherto passed; and proposed to take
the sanction of the Queen in Council, and obtain an order for
permitting negroes to emigrate from Sierra Leone and the
West Indian islands. Now, those orders in Council have been
very much considered by the Government that followed ;
various other relaxations have been made with respect to other
parts of the world; I believe very considerable indulgence has
been adopted by Mr. Gladstone when he was Secretary of
State for the Colonial Department. With respect to that sub-
ject there is only one material alteration which we ptopose to
make. It is that the contracts or agreements which are en-
tered into in Sierra Leone, or the British settlements, or
Africa, as to the employment of negroes should hold good in
the West Indies. We think, upon the whole, that with the
present knowledge which the West India proprietors have on
this subject, and with the knowledge of that which was stated
by Lord Metcalfe, admitting the fact that labourers
in Jamaica, and most other Indian islands have
much more demands on the employed than the
employed on the employers, I should say that we might give
permission for contracts of service to be made for a single year.
But with regard to another proposal which is to be made,
namely, that they should be allowed to make those contracts on
the coasts of Africa, where we have not possessions—where the
British flag does not wave, we do not think it sufficient that
such should be made without some additional conditions.

Other questions the West India interest has laid considerable

stress upon ; for instance, they say rum is not admitted upon
equal terms with the liquors and spirits of other
states and colonies. We have looked into this,
and we think a reduction in the duty may be
safely made from Is. Otl. to Is. —( Hear, hear.) There is
another subject which they complain of. They complain of
the differences which exist in the excise duties of Scotland
and Ireland; but we think that to make any alteration in this
respect would he attended with a good deal of difficulty. —( Hear. )
There is another article which they wished to have released
from the excise restrictions. They ask us to allow molasses
to be used in distilleries free of duty ; but here there are diffi-
culties in our way, and we cannot at present give them this
advantage. Now I think it is but fair, while we are applying
free-trade principles at home, we ought to extend
them to the colonies.—(Hear, hear.) We therefore purpose
to relax the duties which are imposed on the introduction of
timber and provisions into certain of our colonies. —( Hear. )
In speaking of this subject some years ago, I said that I
thought the whole system of the country had gone on in a
vicious circle.—( Hear, hear.) The manufacturers asked for
protection, and the colonist and the farmer were not enabled
to get supplies of manufactured goods from foreign countries, and
were obliged to pay a high price for the home produce. The
colonistfarm er awsek for n
reed
not able abrloetet
oe tgi tsnet
suppliest i manufacturerfprovisions and the
elsewhere.
The colonist also asked for protection, and, in consequence of
this the farmer and the manufacturer were not
able to receive supplies from them. The whole system
was a bad one, and I then stated that we ought to endeavour
to break the circle.—( Hear, hear.) That has been in a great
measure done since I then spoke; and I do not think, unless
the ground of morality and slave labour is to be con-
sidered an argument now, that you can continue to keep
up in favour of the colonies the differential scale of
duties—etax which pressed sic heavy on the country.—( Hear,
hear.) I do not think that those parties who, dur.ng the pre-
sent session of Parliament, have favoured protection to the
agricultural interests, if they oppose the alteration in these
differential duties, could give a satisfactory account of
it to their constituents.—( Hear, hear.) It might have
been well for them to have dune so, had their plan for pre-
venting the abolition of the protection to the landed interest
succeded, but it had not done so; this they could not say,
and therefore it would be better that they should go before their
constituents and say that the time for the abrogation of all
these protection duties had arrived. I believe
that it will not be considered satisfactory for them to say, we
have been unsuccessful in the support of our principle, or the op-
posite opinion has prevailed, yet we will so contend that the co-
lonial produce should still continue dear to the farmer, and that
the labourers he employs shall continue to pay a high price for al
the colonial produce he consumes. 1 will beg leave
to refer to another subject, because it has reference
to another year. The Right Honourable Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his •statement
lately made to the House, drew a flattering prospect of the
financial condition of the present year, but it was impossible
not to observe that with regard to the future year his
statement was not of so consolatory a description.
The Right Hon. Gentleman's estimate for the next half-year,
is 21,650,000/. ; out of this sum the China money is to be de-
ducted (700,000/), and the estimate therefore for the expenses
of the United Kingdom, is calculated at 20,950,000/.
The expenditure the Right Honourable Gentle-
man estimates at 50,873,000/., but if we take
away from that expenditure 200,0001., which
may be considered an expense of a temporary nature, it leaves
an amount of 50,673,0001. But then we must add certain ex-
penses which the Right Hon. Baronet has not added. There
is the Irish constabulary, of which the expenses for the half iear
is only taken. We must add for this item to next half year's
account 175,0001. ; we must also add for extraordinary services
283,0001.; for school and medical attendants on poor-law unions
61,5001. ; half-year's expenses for prosecutions in Great Bri-
tain, 60,0001., and for Ireland, 9,0001., making alto-
gether an amount of 62,850,000/. I should, therefore,
state the future permanent expenditure of the country,
according to the Right Honourable Gentleman's esti-
mate, at 51,302,0401., and the permanent income
at 50,950,000, thus leaving a deficiency for the
years 1847,:1848, of 352,0401. Now when there is a prospect
like that made out for us by the Right Hon. Gentleman, it
seems to us expedient that an endeavour shall be
made to obtain an increase of income, at the same time that
no augmentation of burdens shall be placed upon the people.
The plan which I have to propose, supposing that there were
240,000 tons of sugar, for the produce of the West and
East Indies and the Mauritius, would give a return of
three millions three hundred and sixty thousand pounds.
I stated that it might be expected that 20,000 tons of free-
labour sugar might arrive in the course of the present year.
With .regard to other sugars no very great supply might
be expected, owing to the examination clause.--( Hear. )
The greater part of the supply of foreign sugar at present in
warehouse has been brought here in American ships, which is
therefore inadmissible in this country by reason of the Naviga-
tion Act. Now, Sir, I should think it very presumptuous
in us, for a mere emergency, to propose an alteration in the
navigation laws ; for I consider any question arising as to them
ought to be matter fur grave and serious consideration, that
there might be a permanent change in them, if change be by
auy means required. The consequence will be, that a small
proportion of sugar will be admissible. I have taken great
pains to inquire, and I find that eight or ten thousand tons at
most of foreign sugar.
Mr. GOULBURN—'Warehouse sugar?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL Of foreign warehouse sugar
would be admissible by the present change, but I think we
may take the whole of what would be admitted of foreign
sugar at 20,000 tons, 10,000 more for slave- grown sugar,
and 10,000 of other sugar, making in all 40,000 tons,
which at 21/. would give 840,0001. I think in this statement
I have taken the foreign sugar at the very lowest estimate ;
but looking on it as a question of revenue, I consider that
it would return 4,200,000/. Now the revenue derived
by the plan of the Right Hon, Gentleman was 3,475,000/.
So, therefore, the plan which I propose will give an increase
of 725,0004, which will turn the account in our
favour, and show a surplus.—( Hear.) I have now
stated generally to the House what is the plan
proposed by her Majesty's Government with reference
to the sugar duties; and I should add that I look upon
this plan as one which, so far as the principle is con-
cerned, is to be a permanent settlement of those duties.—
( Hear, hear.) I shall therefore propose, if those duties are
carried into Committee, to found upon them a Bill in which I
shah• make the sugar duties permanent, and not leave the ques-
tion to be debated year after year. Much, Sir, as the West
Ind'a interest may ftel themselves aggrieved by the change
which takes away this prohibition, I think the settlement
of a question which has been to them a source
of so much anxiety, and which has been so
repeatedly a matter of debate, will be in a great degree a com-
pensation for that change. I do not propose to vary in any
respect that constitutional practice of leaving a large amount
of revenue dependent upon the yearly vote of the House ofporn-
mot* and I shall propose, therefore, some other source of re-
venue, which I shall state to the House before these resolutions
are come to on the Bill, which shall be made a yearly income,
and for which the Minister of the Crown shall every year ask
the Parliament. I know some persons will say that by this
plan we are again destroying that principle of protection which
is due to the colonies, and estranging the affections and loyalty
of the people. I consider, Sir, that the time is come, when with
reference to this subject you must adopt an altered policy, and
I think an improved policy. It was the habit of this and
other countries to provide they should have a jealous mono•
poly of the commerce and the productions of the colonies,
and that the colonies should be obliged to take the
exclusive productions and manufactures of the mother
country. I believe no country was more jealous in
this respect than Spain. Spain had a vast colonial em-
pire, and yet at the end of a century and a half
after she had acquired that empire, we find Sir Robert Wal-
pole stating to this House, upon the question of Spanish trade
with Spanish America and the Spanish West Inches, that the
greater part of 'the goods sought to be introduced to Europe
would belong not to Spaniards, but to foreign countries.
Such, Sir, was the result of a rigid and exclusive system,
without the energy and freedom of a commercial empire.
My belief is, that if you support the proposition
of the Government, that the colonies will gain, and
not suffer, by this great change in your policy. I believe
that the cultivation of sugar itself will be improved to a great
extent—( Hear, hear)—when the colonists know that they
must compete in the markets of the mother country with the
productions of other countries.—( Cheers.) I believe that they
will derive great energy from being allowed to seek where they
like for the cheapest products of the other countries of the
globe.
And, Sir, recollect that }ou do not part with that
great advantage—that neither in this country should we ever
impose differential duties against the colonies, nor should the co-
lonies impose differential duties as against us. It isa commerce se-
cure in war as well as inpeace —a commerce which is not exposed
to the danger of conflicting tariffs, but which is regulated
solely by a view of what is for the benefit of all. The colonists
derive, I think, great advantage in being connected with
this country, having the advantage of all the skill
and the accumulated capital of this company and this empire
has an immense advantage in the loyalty, the power and the
assistance of the colonists. But these colonists must hereafter
not exist on the limited and restricted system of
former days that limited and restricted system
must be acknowledged to be erroneous. Our
principles must be altered. I believe that both the mother
country and the colonies would flourish all the more for the
abolition of useless restrictions—that after some period of mur-
muring, perhaps, its advantage will be acknowledged ; but in this
country, and in the magnificent possessions which belong to us,
it will be acknowledged that we have hitherto been mistaken
in the value of the policy which has been adopted, and an
affection will be all the stronger when neither is subject to re-
strictions, except those imposed upon the other.--( Hear,
hear.) When the colonies are neither obliged to
submit to some restriction for some supposed bene-
fit to the mother country, nor the mother country
deprived of the benefit of some of the choicest pro-
ductions of the globe for some interests to be favoured at the
expense of an important policy. I trust the colonial empire
of this country is an empire of which every statesman
of this country must justly be proud—to which the people of
this country justly attach the highest value. I trust
that when this better system has been adopted, we
shall see those colonies increase and flourish—that
we shall be proud of them as our possessions, and
enjoying the liberty which we have given them, and that
both may flourish for long years together. Sir, I shall now
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resolution

Mr. HUME would rather see the House sit much longer
than usual than see the settlement of a question of such vast
importance delayed a day longer. He hoped that the proposals
of the Noble Lord would be adopted by the House, but he at
the same time must say that the laws at present existing as to
the use of sugar in breweries were most absurd, and he hoped
that the Noble Lord would embody a reform on that subject in
his present comprehensive plan. He entirely approved of the
Noble Lord's intention to abolish, if possible, the anomaly at
present existing as to sanctioning the admission of some slave
and free produce, whilst on that of sugar there were differential
or protective duties, which, as had been truly said, did not
benefit the country. When the question of the sugar duties had
been settled to the satisfaction of the Noble Lord, he (Mr.
Hume) considered that this session might terminate, leaving an
impression on the minds of the House that it was the greatest
session within their memory.
Mr. HENLEY condemned the proposal of the Noble Lords'
plan as a most unjust one, and said that-if it was carried out we
should have free-trade not only in corn but in everything
else.—( Laughter. )
Mr. RICARDO hoped that the equalisation of the sugar
duties would not be delayed for five years, and if the Noble
Lord persisted in proposing the resolutions as they at present
stood, he should feel it his duty on Friday next to propose ati
amendment to limit the period of equalisation.
Mr. WAKLEY replied to some remarks that had fallen
from the Noble Lord, the member for Lynn ( Lord G. Ben-
tinck ) as to protection, and contended that the principle of
protection on which that Noble Lord had se eloquently dwelt,
had led to the most ruinous consequences. He had not for-
gotten the observations which had been made a few years since
in that House, upon the introduction of the Hiil Coolies into
the West Indies. The House should paus .3 before they passed
his measure; a considerable quantity of labourers were to be
introduced into the West Indies, to break down the claims of
hose unfortunate beings who were now employed
there. He hoped, therefore, that the Noble Lord
at. the head of the Government would recon-
sider this part of his proposition, and protect these
unfortunate labourers from the merciless, cold-blooded' specu-
lators who traded in human flesh, and who kidnapped the un-
fortunate Hill Coolies for the purpose of importing them into
the West Indies, in order to beat down the prices of the libe-
rated negroes. The House would not do its duty if they did
not oppose this part of the project.
Sir H. INGLIS said that he must remind the House that
they were not pledged at all to the merits of the measure, but
at a future time they would express their opinions on the
subject,
Sir DE LACY EVANS contended that the term" un-
fortunate" applied to the West Indian labourers by the Hon.
Member for Finsbury was not appropriate, for they were the
best paid of any class of workmen in the world. They were
so well off indeed that they could not be got to work. He
thought that the Noble Lord had acted wisely in limiting the
term of equalisation of duties to five years.
Lord G. BENTINCK, in answer to the Hon. Member
for Finsbury, said, that the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government had no sympathy whatever with cold-blooded,
merciless, or cruel speculators • and the labourers who would be
introduced into the West Indies would be amply protected.
Mr. CFIAPMAN said, that the Hill Coolies who had been
formerly imported into the West Indies, had gone back to
their native country with money in their pockets, and in every
other respect they were both comfortable and i.appy.
Sir W. JAMES wished to know whether the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government was prepared to lay upon
the table of the House any papers tending to show that one
shilling was a proper sum to be considered as a differential
duty between free and slave-grown sugar.
Lord SANDON wished for some further information on the
question of slave-grown sugar, before he could pronounce an
opinion upon the proposed measure. From what he had heard,
and what he at present knew of the subject, ho thought the
proposition was not at all calculated either to improve the
revenue, or to benefit the consumer or the grower.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, with
reference to laying on the table of the House any return as to
the amount of differential duties, he did not think he could by
any returns afford any information sufficiently explicit for the
Hon. Member (Sir W. Janes). The Hon. Member also made
some remarks in answer to Lord Sandon, the purport of which
did not reach the gallery.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK thought that '
higher protec-
tion
should be afforded to the West Indian colonies.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not the intention of Govern-
ment to allow any labourers to be imported into the West Indian
'n Africa or Asia, where there
colonies from any part either I
were not British settlements. This precaution had been
adopted by her Majesty's Government, in order to prevent a
revival in any degree of the slave trade. Ho was not inclined
g
to draw the distinction between slave and free-grown sugar.
r
The CHAIRMAN then put the resolution, which was carried,
and ordered to be reported on Wednesday next.
The House then resumed.
SUPPLY.
Mr. WARD then moved that the House go into a Corn.
mittee of Supply.
Mr. WILLIAMS rose to draw the attention of the House
to the practice of flogging
sailors, and to the manner in which
courts-martial are constituted in tne Britishnavy, 'there
was no appeal from the judgment of a court-mar-
tial. In the army there was
had every pro-
complete protection
against violence. The civilian, also,
pro-
to the Mere, of the Crown.
tection. He might aeptal
But for the poor sailor there was nu appeal either for Morey or
against an unjust judgmeht, and he felt quite sure that if
these circumstances were generally known the country would
not permit such hardships to be inflicted upon a body ill Whom
they peculiarly looked for protection. The system of flogging
in the navy was, he considered, most dangerous, and which, if
it were not altered, might bring fbriot's e•cfnmeott
a
'rites upon the
country. Formerly any commander could tie Up titian and
inflict any punishment it was his will and pleasure to
do. But what was the present system with regard
to this infamous punishment—the most degrading
that could he suffered by any man—and which had
broken the hearts of men. Why, under the present system
the lashes were confined to forty-eight, which he was assured
was equal to two hundred in the army. Many naval officers
said more, and common sense points out that such must be
the case. In the army the lashes were given with a small twine,
and very often by a drummer boy ; but it was otherwise in
the navy ; the punishment was inflicted with a thickish cord,
and by the stoutest man in the ship, generally the boatswain ;
and he had been assured that after the first blow the blood
streamed from every pore.—(Hear, hear.) He did hope
that the public would take up the protection o

From the sth of July, 1846, to sth of July, 1847 2ls.
••• 1847, to sth of July, 1848 2os.
••• 1848, to sth of July, 1849 lBs. 6d.
.• 1849, to sth of July, 1850 l7s.
1850, to sth of July, 1851 lss. 6d.
1851, to sth of July, 1852, that
a duty of l4s.
should apply to all Muscovado sugar five years from the sth
of July, 1847. Now, Sir, I say nothing here of the propriety or
advantage that might be derived from a still further reduction of
14s. per cwt. Ido not think that, considering this in operation—
that it is to be continued over five years—considering
also the present state of the revenue, of which
I shall have something to say before I conclude,
and considering the present state of the Government, I
do not think it would be right for us, on any specula-
tion, to ask for any considerable reduction beyond this, and
especially when it is borne in mind the reductions which had been
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman last year. Now, I should
say that with respect to the distinction that was made last year
as to clayed sugar, it is quite true that I have shown by
analogy, that that was not overrated with respect to
the sugars to which it was proposed to be ap-
plied. I find with regard, to Havannah sugar, that there
is white, or white clayed sugar, of which the price is
more than 4s. I have only to state at present that in the Bill
which I shall have the honour to lay on the table of the
House I propose to keep up the distinction of last
year. I do this on the grounds I have stated. I
have not been able to ascertain all the information
I could have wished on the subject, and therefore, with regard
to that part of the plan which may be affected by subsequent
information, I will not too minutely enter.
Sir R. PEEL—On all clayed sugars?
Lord J. RUSSELL—On all clayed sugar?. There is a
3 imilar re.!uetion, from year to year,
ot, the sogar and
on the double refined sugar, and I need hardly, I think, enter
into the details, but at once lay the list on the table of
the House. The reduction is in similar proportions to
WOO ;lido Q 4 tho abet ppm yilth l'orrect W
_ _

THE SUN,` LONDON,
_TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 2l, 1846.

these unfortunate beings, who had neither just
judge or jury.—(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen seemed to
make very merry on this question, but he would just read to I
them some extracts from a pamphlet which he held in his
hand, in which it was stated, that for a most trivial fault it ,

was customary to tie the sailor to a mast, either in cold' or
scorching weather, and leave him exposed for several hours
—or oblige him to run up and down the rigging under a
scorching sun—or condemn him to wear a wooden collar for
days and nights together—or inflict upon him the brutal
punishment of the lash ; and all this might be done
without even the formaities of a trial.--(clear, hear.)
All those acquainted Nith the proceedings on board of ship
must know that nearly all the mutinies that had taken place in
the navy have had their origin in this practice of flogging.
But the important question they had to ask themselves was,
was this system of flogging necessary? He had had commu-
nications on the subject with many officers in the navy, and
their general opinion was, that flogging, except in very extreme
cases, was not necessary. And if so—if there were cases in.
which flogging might be considered necessary—then he main-
tained there ought to be a provision for a court martial to
adjudicate punishment. And who were the parties who were
in the practice of resorting to flagging in the navy ? Not the
old and experienced officers, but those who were called mar-
tinets, who were exceedingly fastidious on the point of discip-
line, and who perhaps did not well know what the duties of an
old sailor were. It was well known that Nelson abhorred
flogging, and only resorted to it in extreme cases ; and that
that great man, Napoleon, abolished flogging when he came
into supreme power. The reason why, as stated by the Hon.
and Gallant Member (Sir Charles Napier), they had inferior
seamen in the navy was this abominable practice of flogging.
Out of 110,000 men in the United States navy and merchant
service, not more than 20,000 were citizens of America ;
the greater number were Englishmen who had been attracted
to that service on account of the superior treatment they re-
ceived and the system adopted in the British navy. He en-
treated the present Government calmly and dispassionately to
consider this question, and afford a remedy ; especially he
trusted that the principle of a court-martial would be adopted.
He hoped that redress would be afforded, so that he should
not have again to bring the question before the House.
Mr. WARD would beg to remind the 'Hon. Member and
the House that the present Admiralty had only come into
office on Monday last, and therefore had not had time to con-
sider the question. He hoped, therefore, the point would
not be pressed by the Hon. Member at present. It could not
be denied, and, in fact, the Hon. Gentleman had himself ad-
mitted it, that it was impossible to keep large bodies of men in
a' fit state of discipline without punishment of some kind, and
which would sometimes have to be of a severe character. He
' (Mr. Ward) was glad to say that a great improvement had
taken place in regard to the punishment of flogging within
the last few years.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") In 1832,
out of 34,000, the cases of severe punishment were 2,000; in
1845, out of 40,000 men, the cases were but 1,200.—( Hear,
hear.) The Hon. Member might rest assured that nothing
would be left undone by the present Admiralty to do away
with arbitrary and undue punishment, and to bring into opera-
tion moral and elevating influences instead.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME hoped they would, as far as possible, modify the
rules and punishments in the navy, so that they might har-
monise more than they now did with the spirit of the age.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, it was quite impossible
that the efficiency and discipline of the navy could be preserved
without the power of inflicting corporeal punishment in cases
of misconduct on the part of the sailors, and he for one was
therefore decidedly opposed to its abolition. In the event of
the punishment being unnecessarily severe, there was a court
of appeal for the sailor, but instances of severity seldom or
never occurred, owing,_ as he contended, to the majority of the
commanders being averse to the system of always having re-
course to corporeal puni,hment.—( Hear, hear.) Still, how-
ever, he was of opinion, that if they took the power from them,
there would be an end to the present efficiency and discipline
of the service.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER suggested that, after the explanation they
had heard from the Gallent Admiral, the Hon. Member for
Coventry ought not to persevere in his motion, but he could
not go so far as the Gallant Admiral in his admiration or
estimation of corporeal punishment. What he found fault
with in the system was this, that the articles of war gave the
captain the power of inflicting the punishment without having
recourse to a court-martial.—( Hear, hear. )
Admiral DUNDAS thought it would be almost impossible
to carry on the business of the navy without inflicting corporeal
punishment.—( Hear, hear.)
Captain PECHELL was not opposed to continuing the
power, but he certainly was an advocate for its being used in a
moderate manner, and only in extreme cases, when other
modes of punishment had failed.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. TRELAWNEY urged upon Government the necessity
of increasing the pay of the sailors engaged in the navy. Some
people thought dread of the lash kept efficient seamen out of
the service, but in his opinion it was the low pay, and not the
lash. —(Hesr. hear.)
Lord INGESTRE said the commander of a ship in her
Majesty's service had a good deal of responsibility on his
shoulders, and it was indispensably necessary that he should
be invested with the power of inflicting corporeal punishment
where the exigencies of the case required it.—( Hear, hear.)
He hoped that nothing would he done to destroy that good feel-
ing which at present prevailed in the army and navy.
VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.

On the question that the Speaker do now leave the chair,
Mr. EWART moved " That it is expedient that the prac-
tice of making Van Diemen's Land a general receptacle for
convicts should cease, and that transportation be discontinued."
The present system entailed the most awful consequences on
the people of that country. At the present moment the con-
vict population was about 34,000, whilst the free population
was only 30,030. Now, the result was, that there was a most
fearful contamination, and the free people were not safe eitler
in or out of doors. Many of the free people had openly said
that they would rather see their children die before their eyes
than see them continue to grow up amongst the convict po-
pulation. Now there was a system which might gradually
remedy the evil, and that was this, that the convicts of this
country should be imprisoned here for the terms to which they
might be sentenced, and at the expiration conveyed away to
some colony, where they might be free to follow those pro-
fessions to which they had been brought up. That system
had been adopted as regarded Port Philip, and the
results were most satisfactory ; the rclesqed convicts
wcra gradually mado honoat and industrious. Instead
of accumulating our convicts into one spot, he contended that
they should be punished here, and afterwards dispersed
throughout our different colonies. The annals of our colonies
loudly called upon us to bestir ourselves on this bead ; they
showed that our present system was productive of the most
frightful results. The system which he recommended was al-
ready adopted and approved of in France. He would forego
going into this subject at any great length, in consequence of
the late period of the session, as well as the change of the Go-
vernment ; but he trusted, that briefly as he had called the at-
tention of the Government to this subject, they would take it
into their most serious consideration.

The motion having been put,
Sir GEORGE GREY admitted that this subject was one
which deserved the most earnest attention of the Government.
Something was now in the course of being done to remove the
evils of which the Hon. Gentleman bad justly complained, and
le hoped, that in the space of about two years, the good
effects of those efforts would begin to manifest themselves.
with regard to the second proposition, it could not be supposed
that her Majesty's Government were in a vosition at present
to give any answer upon the subject. In -theory he entirely
agreed with the Hon. Member for Dumfries. The question
of punishment was one of the most difficult with whieh a
Government could deal. But the Hon. 'Member might rest
assured that the subject would receive the best consideration of
her Majesty's Government.
Lord H. VANE made a few remarks, which were perfectly
inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. HOPE said that an alteration had been made in the
system of transportation by his Noble Friend ; religious im-
provement had been made among them ; several directions
were sent out for the classification and assignment of the con-
victs. There were great difficulties attendant upon dealing
with this complicated question, and the plan proposed by the
Hon. Member for Dumfries was one which could not be con-
veniently carried out.
Mr. HUME considered that to attr mpt reformation in this
country would be to bring upon this country all the evils
complained of in the settlements to which the convicts were
now sent; he thought that education would be the most proper
mode of removing and preventing crime.
Mr. HAWES assured the House that the attention of her
Majesty's Government should be directed to the subject of
transportation to Van Diemen's Land.
After a few remarks from Mr. Hope (in explanation), Mr.
Hawes, and Mr. Ewart, the motion was withdrawn.
THE NAVY.

On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply,
Sir C. NAPIER rose to put a question to the Admiralty,
respecting the cost of building, repairing, and pulling down
the vessels lately built. He thought if the Government had
spent more money in manning the navy than in building ships,
the navy would have been in a much more efficient position.
Since 1843 he saw by a return from the Admiralty (and he
was sorry to say these returns were not very correct), they had
launched two ships of the line, six frigates, and fourteen
steamers, and they had now on the stocks six 92-gun ships, five
84-gun ships, three 50-gun frigates, four 26-gun frigates, and
a number of small vessels. With such an enormous navy on
the water, what was the use of constructing these enormous
I ships, when, if they had a war, they could not man the half of
them in three years ? What e Government ought to do was
to turn their attention to getting more seamen, and putting
them on a proper foundation. They might as well say, that
when they had a great many barracks and forts they had a tine
army, as to boast of the number of their ships, and declare they
had a fine navy. Seeing the number of ships that had been
laid down, he (Sir C. Napier) thought we were in a most
unfortunate position. The reports relative to the squadron
which had been sent to sea were extremely unfavourable as far
as the sea-going qualities of these ships were concerned. And
yet we had an enormous number of ships on the stocks exactly
of the same calibre and dimensions, and, as he expected,
with the same faults. He found also that six 74-gun ships,
which the late Board of Admiralty called block-ships, were
some in the King's yards, and seine in merchants' yards, to
be tilted with screws and to carry forty guns ; and he wiled
to know if it were prudent for any Board of Admiralty to do
this to such an extent without having made a trial? If these
block-ships did not suceee,l, what then would be the use of
them? Casting his eye through the navy estimates, he ob-
served a sum of 18,0001. for repairs of steam goat d-ships ; but
he had no hesitation in saying that one of those ships would
cost all the money that was put down for the repairs of the
whole. The Retribution and Avenger would be perfect men-
'of-war, but after building paddle-box boats for them, the con-
structor came forward and said that they could not carry the
boats, and they were therefore taken out and sent to store. He
hoped that what he had directed attention to would induce his
lion. Friends at the Board of Admiralty to pay a little more at-
tention to the subject of construction. At present we were at
an enormous expense, increasing the navy without having
first ascertained whether the new ships would answer or not.
He admitted that the late Government had done much for the
sailor in the way of improving his food, but he wanted to
know what that or any other Government had done towards
manning the navy on an emergency. A good deal was done
last session in passing the Registration Bill, but it had defects,
and he hoped the present secretary would take early steps to
remove them. He would recommend, after the registration
had been rendered complete, that Government should call all
the seamen! of the country out by presses, Immediately after
a young man had served his apprenticeship on board of a mer.
chantman, he should be taken on board one of her Majesty's
ships, and having served a short while there, lie should be
allowed to return to the merchant service. If this system were
adopted, the navy would always be efficient, while, on immer-
gencies, it could be manned with skilful and experienced
mariners without the least difficulty. (Hear, hear.)
He believed that n.thing would'so much raise the hopes of the
seamen of this country es the establishment by the Board of
Admiralty of a seaman's home at Plymouth, where their
more;:, health, and bellies would be provided for. Unless
some one not a' Member of the Admiralty were appointed to
the building of the shipit, he was sure things would always go
wrong. The duties of the present head of that department
were too numerous to allow him properly to discharge his duty,
and involved in the end the useless expenditure of a large sum
of money annually. He hoped that a proper Board of Con-
struction would be appointed, who should sit in London, and
whose number should consist of three able men. Those men
would have the opportunity of considering all plans on subjects
connected with the navy shipbuilding. Having thanked the
House for the attention which they had paid to him, the lion.
Gentleman concluded his observations.
Mr.. WARD hoped that the Hon. and Gallant Member
W 01414 ealeW the 1i01450 to go iato_a Committee of Supply,