The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-14 00:00:00

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E "Y thy,. • -
k 4 he might Five notice, to answer his gees- were stretched on a bed cf sickness. What other effect
tittilt Present he was not prepared to do so. The could hdlove such tr, atment ? It appeared also that in
Nee -.no. Member for the University of Oxford must the same union the aged and infirm had only 15oz. of
1044;111ln if he declined to give an answer at present animal food in the week ; 15oz. eer, allowed to the aged
tar
ns e'eeiestion as the one he had put to him. and infirm, while to the healthy and rule-bndied, with
Ite . nikl
eY AND NAVY ESTIMATES. strong and vigorous stomachs, only 4oz. were allowed.
Ilse , WILLIAMS wished to call the attention of the Under such circumstances, he would ask, what
Tot :let() the very large amount of the estimates proposed was to be done with the Poor-law Commis-
len, tx.reet and navy in the present session. Anxious sioners ? He believed that in their private
kets-aswaYe was to save the public money, he would not capacity they were all estimable men, but this was a
teesintaele any objection to these increased estimates had case of gross injustice, and perpetrated, too, against a
IlleeePrtion of affairs, as respected this country and the class of individuals who were least able to defend them-
ne, `',otates of America, remained the same as they selves. It was quite clear that the Commissioners of
literonge had,
elieeetivlnen those estimates were first brought forward. Somerset House were useless—were worse than useless.
however, happily taken place, and all the That Commission was a monstrous grievance en,grafted
10tait eheeeB between, the two countries were now brought on the constitution. Ile did not wish, however, to con-
Ner and consequently the necessity for these ills fine the administration of the poor-law to local bodies ;
4a...estimates was entirely removed. There had a central governing body was necessary, but. how it
sieee ; nomense increase in this branch of the estimates should be constituted he wits not, prepared to say. He
left rie Noble Lord at the head of the Government called, however, upon the Nohle Lord to fix his attention
It lice* en a former occasion and the present time. upon the subjeet,ard lay down such a system of mana.ge-
ef 1 '1- Members would refer to the estimates ment as would he best adapted to meet the demands of
ti 835,
Ite te and compare them with the present the country and the wants of the peer. He therefore
Nee 'ley would see the enormous increase. He entreated the lion. Member for liontrese to persist in
kit he net confine his remarks to a single year. his metion, and to take a division of the Honse_ to show
ho, ~Would take the average expenditure for seven the Poor-lew Commissioners the feeling of the House on
:iteln.oilirtt)en the year 1835, and that voted show the this subject.
teeneit R increase for the present year. In 1835 the Captein PECITELL said that it had been his inten-
-0)4 f tire eves 48.780,00 q„ and the expenditure pro- ten to propose a postpenentent of this question—
teh‘l,4:,l,B46 was 55.500.0001., being an increase over clear, hear)-. and he saw no reason. to alter the course
neree's of 6.720.000/. In addition to that. a reduc- lie had marked out. It was impossible to conceive the
elete,"°,ooo/. took place in the Twe-and-a Half per horn-I's and iniquities which were detailed before the
Ytitreywhieh raised the expenditure of the present Committee. altheugh a (Treat part of them were detailed
etei4:ol- that of 1835 to 7,34:1,000/. 'Taking again the in the public press. The case was one which called for
tlllioe efat't'en years, commencing with the Admiaia- eerious consideration, and though he did not wish to im-
-111 tordnt
1i..;-)rd Grey, and including three years of that perle the measure, he thought teat it would be better to
0400/ ielbeurne, he found the expenditure was postpone it.
1s 0•• more then in 1835, He admitted that. the The CHANCELT.O7I of the EXCHEQUER did net
!Ile eseyernment mieht be quite justified in increasing see any good to he effected by the pestneneirent of the
levo7l)!aditure in the army and navy departments. but eiscessien, it would be merely putting off a difficulty to
:4 eirk department of the Govirnment an increase a future day.
tp,t, Then place which was pen'ectly astound- Mr. HENLEY said that atter the statement which
.2% tw,,e miscellaneens estimates alone suet' bed been maee by the Hon. Member opposite. (Mr.
"Rese to three millions, The cause for in- •.valiley), he teotiehr that he °eget to move for a return
Itat la had ceased; the country, he considered, of the diet tables. He did not see that. any practical good
Ppeet tet!, good a position as it occupied in 1835, in could result from delay, anti he thought it would he ad-
sea,Nesitiu_t the foreign relations. There seemed to bs a visable to grant the money, as it was merely a temporary
:•eletiers`'n to peace, and he gave the Noble Lord measure. He, therefore, should vote against the mo-
t 'lett ten) at the head of the Foreign Department tion of the Hon. Member for Montrose.
41..ee--ereeet for wishing to maintain the' relations with Mr. HUME said that he only wish d a part of this
eele tee reenteies in peace. He did expect, therefore, grant to be kept back. He did not object to the system
'"llnite.os-Tls•vernment. as soon as they hadtleisure, would of poor-laws. but merely to their administration, and he
'ke the' whole of the estimates, and make every would therefore withdraw the motion he had made, as he
teekeinoleduction. Why, he said, the increase of lid not wi<ll to be thought willing to offer any obstruc-
Zn itee Le was some two millions more than the income (ion to the law,..
al•
t. come two millions and a half more than the Sir DE LACY EVANS said that he thought some
reins.l if then the Government could reduce the ex- further opportunity of discussing the measure ought to
ee-4aleee-,t° what it was in 1845, then both of these ob- he afforded this session, but it would be advisable that
'fte 4/CPS TIN' ht be abolished. The cost of the the present vote should be silo.. ed.
fee tine its le -`g . .
0 that
e nught to be scrutinised and reduced. He After a few words from Captain PECHELL and Mr.
the 3,,,. at there was an increase in that item between FERGUSON,
"ettlelira 1841 and 1845 of 350,0001., and that the in- Sir JAMES GRAHAM made some observations in
• 1,1e(;1 the same item between 1806 and 1845 amounted explanation which did thath the gallery.
*0414 ier a Tie hoped then that the present Ministry Mr. WAKLEY said he saw no other course but
the .4_ follow the course taken by Lord Grey, and revise to give way as his Hon. Friend had done, He cone-
Z:eel ofethe expenses, whereby he was certain they plained of the position it, which medical gentlemen were
teentltryac. quire and retain the increased confidence of the ~laced under the New Poer•law, and considered they
ettinn.s
which
djuhset dbiedebnorntad,s.,,
kr Euti ought to be made more independent. As it was, medi.
Zs Ron. Gentle expect to hear the obser- al. officers in connexion with peor.law unions were in
h* Goverment than' but he felt obliged to a far worse position than tho..:e employed in infirmaries
and the more so because with a And dispensaries, where they had the power of regulat •
i'oo said there was eY Were 'likely to have their weight. ing regimen as they thought compatible with the state
se throw ~„, eel were
suggestion which he wished ,f the patients. This was not so under the poor-law
7414 it,, he ;a to the Noble Lord. At the commerce. euardians, fir the medical officers were continually in-
toselPPeid ° the
Grey Administration a Committee terferred with in this respect, and liable to rebuke and
e„lvtae the ,as the robe Lord himself would recollect. iismissal. He thought it was a matter which ought to
;`,tet emomi,salaries of the different officers of State. be taken up by the Government.
47 now de,.'teeAave great sadsfaction, for the country Sir JAMES GRAHAM acid it Was impossible the
net'eteneen'.'eftnined to look into the expenses of the Government who had just come into office could have
teeleteiietee"` The inquiry he alluded to ought to have considered the details of the question, and he would
~„,vg 001,. cl through all the departments, for Parliament therefore be excused in occupying the House briefly in
""eierdi_ ligt.:?,Poti itself to regulate the salaries, and ac- xplanation. The subject of medical relief was indeed
It Nee' etne salaries of the Presidents and the Secrete en important matter, and should not be lost sight of in
tentleeeenxed and approved of by the House, but here the adminis-ration of the New Poor-law. A Committee
ee„,"4"cirde„a_lie thought that the officer at. the head had sat on the question of medical relief some time ago,
ieZeleilts,Farntr nt would have inquired into these de- ?resided over by Lord Ashley, and the result
epee. Nur_ neade the necessary reductions. That was the issuing of a general order hy
the
Loiocra7
toe-1411h fromfollowedplacing the country. But what he (Mr. Hume) officers in as independent ri position as he could d i
lit:ll7ous'4et.t.at the Noble Lord would allow the mis- He did not go the length of. the Hon. Member(Mr..
Ofttlltly to stnnates to be submitted to some such Wakley), as to the perfect independence of medical
e9401e risk estimates
Irish estimates were subjected to. Many officers, but thought it was necessary they should be
tee tee
_,411 estimates were found to be most extrava- under a certain degree of control. Though the con-
et reseitgosurd, but a proper reduetion was made, and nrolling power of the Poor-law Act was much objected
Nitellee„,‘,,eas greater economy, and a better discharge .0, he must say that, were it removed, matters would
th tkiii4,,"_e! of the office. The Irish themselves, who be much worse than they were at present.—(Hear.)
ik'Leeept`nrilloose in money matters, received this result i-Te did not see how they could improve upon the present
4-e Pee ati°ll. He did not mean to recommend any arrangement. Ti', for one, did not think it proper that
iilert%ealretaduction, for there were many of the undet low rates shoed(' be paid to medical officers, but that a
It 4 Year,' eery ill remunerated; where officers, after t'air and liberal remuneration should be afforded. Their
lehe..osfites service, left ill compensated. But there abject was not to fix the rate too low on the one hand,
leen'i me. „whose good pay accompanied little or no and to guard against an undue liberality on the other.
Rill' 80 _La ere he thought a reduction ought to be Mr. HENLEY said there was an item of 30,000/. for
the IN, u`sssured the Noble Lord that this course would schoolmasters and scheolmistresses engaged in the edu-
.‘eeentee atisfaction, and gain him the confidence of 1 Alen of the destitute poor in connexion with the poor-
hetet tre•Y.
eltl* R - 'aw unions. Ire wished to know how it was applied ?
Teri, lee rel' lA,TG said the Government had one great He was satisfied that a strong feeling eves entertain.ed
Allepts-oble reeving the public from increased burdens- :breueleie the country on the cutting down of salaries
nted 07rd would recollect that a Committee was of the medical officers, and much blame was in copse-
treettePort, a public accounts. That Committee made quence thrown on the Poor-law Commissioners. The
Rrn..Peittei ,ndin it laid down certain principles. The le cal authorities under the poor-law were not to blame
ihe,-"tepreeetiePeleswh bt,ch they had laid down was, that the for that.
es° 6 gee- nowrie:ettee'd be paid into the Exchequer. Now Sir JAMES GRAHAM explained that the school-
not,:-seooot. b7ls'glew cases in which from 6,700,0001. masters and schoolmistresses would remain as they were
Sy seorneeveene_otme. altogether escaped the attention of now, subject to the control of the Commissioners. An
the some
of the de where nearly 7,000,000!. were taken increase in the salaries of the schoolmasters had bean
tnittepartmente tonclatettnents and applied, while other.of oronc”.ed in the hope of getting more efficient persons
14.4411,1,00urnIteirorefgiutiwareistaitiatkfer:m the sale of public stores. for 'those situations.
stahetill the receipts were handed The vote was then agreed to.
pot 4 long as they said, ought not to exist On the question being put thatbe voted to
the x•peetiducted wiihth--
Ilohilehle Lord would correct thHeme
exist the Government couls defray the expenses of the 'factory inspectors,
put .
thelut't if he would h; oapnedd,btehen, that Mr. ..11INDLEY said the House ought to be in
t4,_141-4,ltultnlicand had no possession of the details of this estimate,
subject the whole to his own personal Mr. HUNIE objected to the vote altogether. It
control, he would effect a great saving seemed rather strange that while with one hand they
id e- .1 J. Ru- were removing, with the other they were imposing re-
111„,selher fnr , O,SELL said the Hon. Gentleman the -frictions on manufactures. He confessed he could not
Co her
fri
t'is;t: entry (Mr. Williams) had attributed the see why a manufacturer could not erect a building
bat lelbourn_ n. E.lyal and military departments, during without calling
x 46 he (Lord",
T.
Administration to the war in America ; The vote was agreed to.
in the assistance of a medical officer.
Russell) remembered attending to this The sum of 1,7551. was voted to defray the salaries of
tletilel'ts tabeisafkre the
-"ilea en it waiNeeeble Lord at the head of that depart- certain persons in Scotland connected with the land
tow hot left _ Wa opinion, that though that was no revenues.
eteeetes end :emit to making up the estimates, still the On the question being put that 6,4641. be voted for
teeeme_inteeell_ Pemdencies of,Great Britain made an in- defraying the expenses of the household of the Lord-
nohneet 70
.departments necessary. As to other jinn
- Lieutenant of Ireland,
feees"at 0,-4.1 which fell from the Hon. Gentleman, he Mr. HUME said he intended to morrow to move that
svese 'Y sax that it was bad policy to exhaust their the office of Lord-Lieutenant be abolished, and he
011fIlt telt: fo_reign service. He found, for example, even thought, therefore, this vote ought to be postponed.
titilees, ini-nesirt system, that the regiment at the head It was agreed to.
at hoilli after heti:et% tyheearresinblB2.
should He thought_ a re- On the item of 39,000/. for defraying the expenses of
ke_tne,
mi
woulkhisetzoctube Costh of the red;enue ,b ele
bovpeedy etabres
11,--45Sthe Secret Service Department.
t`tleeieUbjeet at see"
et lon to it iiereeas tim. if he declined entering upon
.tner,. but he would certainly turn his Mr. HUME said it was exceedingly strange that this
item should be the same every year. He wished to have
an explanation on this head.
14 4ellpAl DE LACY EVANS said that h. e was one Mr. WAKLEY said the country was at peace, so was
teee,evercirnittee appointed by the House. to i.riquire and House—(Laughter)—anditnisittaliedinoffice,
toy` Upon the best mode of econo 1;1 he
most
mil i- for a long time, wanitdbohuet.. Ministersbeing
were
ousted
.
‘ll,. eleelk°4 naval departments, and at that timecouldany
howesieeeti)sft
‘lls-Z3l3' wish that economical arrangements wouldmost sum could be required. The House and the country.
so large a
e_ a,elee ; but he had seen enough within the last few too, were entitled- to a fair explanation as to the pur-
-4.y...- convince him that reductions in the and Po
army poses for which this money was applied.--(Hear.)
qt,,,,b The vote was then agreed to.
. lishmenta would be anything but economical.
TiZla le CONTAITTEE OF SUS, 57,568 L was then agreed to for criminal prosecutions,
KIS., -nose 'then resolved itself into a Committee of On the item of 21,0001., for. the charge of the Solicitor
-and officers of her Majesty's Treasury,
stao tbe
1,704tl of 3,345/. for the Ecclesiastical Com- Mr. WILLIAMS said that these expenses had been
Ante. ,atomlnd already provided for in No. 1. The salary of the Soli-
t th •-• tiExi
thiui e item SON rose to object. He considered titer of the Treasury in 1841 was 2.000/., hut now it was
tfki.ehers e Was enormous, as not one half of the Com- 2.8501.; and the salaries of all his clerks had been doubled.
eee: ()thee ter attended the Beard, being prevented by —(No, no.) The public documents proved the fact.
tolit.B,ssionprofessional enga2-etnents. He was prepared. No V. he wanted to know what increased duties had de-
fet,'edeteei the
move fora Commitfre of inquiry, as he volved upon these individuals to justify an increase of
ihrily
e'ev business of the Commission was not satis-
r -for tp 1 their salaries ?
be Its° eIIAY •"( • ofthe EXCHEQUER Mr. CARDWELL explained that the Solicitor and hie
leaa -3 bit,- -,CELLOR . said clerks performed the duties of solicitor to no less tha .
In :10% • e, aware that the business of the Commission thirteen public offices, and he thought
that the House
Mil - Bensf '1 wig' .rmed • and he
44 eees aetori y 1 .
.. considered would see that he and his clerks were by no means over-
ed Ponithl 1 mmission ware appointed, it would paid.
In Y the . es te° -
r. ~,. evil toMr said Nt, ,• w no- , a great degree
that the • : WILLIAMS"
teePnlleheuidT..lsMS most strongly objected . le Solicitor of the Treasury in 1841 were almost precisely
the r_.,,,,,xxxea be taxed for a Commit.ion to inquire Into the same as those now performed by him. Other public
tion:lovet."l°el%
tthe Church. lie did hot wish to um& law officers were not treated nearly so liberal by the
lOW al h 0 eottt il,),u, the felt in a most awkward pesi- Geeertiment.
t unless sr se'. cons 1 • port vole ; Mr. F. BARING supported the vote, and contended
nry in, woe t„iell , .cientioits 3 ell!) - the
Solicitir to the Treasury was by no means over-
lease e€l,ll',rY shoule b ation was hele eut that the neces- :het the s
Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume)
Pri, the Hour be
upone Made into it, he would take tic naid, with the
the present system of remune-
old/ 011ANCELI.(. it'
he was of opinion that
b ' a fix, d and just salary, was a far
IV ..: t taake an in .JR of the EXCHEQUER said he rating the S licitor y . .
hen by fees.—(Hear.)
ee. et till then aware
into the circumstances ; but he better incde than r.rouneratintz
reason of the an,
That vote
wAxLEr vvare that it was an opposed vote. Mr. GOULBURN explained the...
Solicitor, viz., the
Ines vete would n said that h.., most sincerely hoped that ointment of additional clerks to the. .
the of the /10 ,et for the future appear in the proceed great savin rof fees to le el practitioners teen. by. . Ile
.
in.;,Yight H01:e713 It was quite unjuA, and he put it to
did not believe that the Solicitor's salary, or those of
110 whether these
below the gangway (Sir E. his clerks, was at all too high.
ith Iscredit . 'e votes did not bring the Church Sir J. GRAHAM also supported the vote. The
ele he eina,Ne E, salary which such an eminent man as Mr. Maule received
Cee,"(nt mean t -TOR of the EXCHEQUER said he for his public services was wisely expended. There
toeteissioners° impute any dereliction of duty to the had not been an increase in the salaries of all his clerks.
Si
e what he found fault with was the Mr. WILLIAMS would undertake to prove that there
en of the Chur .'
telateltli- INGLes . t.n. had been an increase throughout the whole of the este-
it, 4 eddie
w:,,_
the said that the Parliament had no right blishment.
%id ae ~ with Chureh pmperty; it had not bestowed Mr. HENLEY wished to know whether . witnesses of
it had no right court
14.LIIUME said to
meddle with it. the Crown receive(' payment for attendance in
tht.,-cifei Wh he did not wish to see gentlemen both from the Government and the Committees whence
tea, - ose was thesummoned?
%ad • Who took it f property first ? The Ca- they had been . _
IN cave it to the P eona them e Why, Parliament, Mr. GOULBURN said he could not answer the
to 10,11,,,_° reason to rote,tants So, therefore, the Church Hon. Gentlemen's question.
tete-•""° those ref ?omplain when Parliament stepped in Mr. EWART recommended the introduction of Ore
1.,0 themselves,.rmatis which the Church refused to decimal system, now prevalent in other countries, with
J
(11ear
I'4'4 d 'RUSSELL , hear.) regard to money.
nvestiws-
toothe telesil,. said that with regard to the vote Mr. HUME was convinced, after a careful i e.
hi tit to the I,os Tat Commission in Ireland, he would don of the report on this subject, that we were better
e_ eehie ~_
~ortnart. Lieutenant, from whom he expected as we were.
''lllla t, Ini ton; so that if it were necessary to Dr. BOWRING entertained a contrary opinion,
111110 itenaNvas Parliament he would know how to act. and anxiously looked forward to the day when the
then passed,
with
decimal system should be introduced, not only
til tb e next vote w f
1,15 law , „
~ as or 120,700/. for the administration regard to our coinag,>, but our weights, measures,
&c.
~,,•ar tr,-','.,1-1k- poor.
eeeti'eeU ALE The vote was eventually agreed to.
qte --"' so Proposedthat 100,000/. he taken upon 64.610/. for criminal pro=ecutions in Scotland was also
nssionthat the question might be left Oren for aeseed to after a little opposition on the part of Mr.
Air Ax,
*llia; ~ ILLIA:ms consideredthat after h Williams, and 66,2091. fur criminal prosecutions in
titte llad been made
oth, „0,..._0
st with respect to poor-law legisla- 939.000/., for prosecutions, removal, and subsistence
osul.he CH "•45s.,_eaReeted was exceedinelv proner. ' t • Sce havine been proposed,
of convic -, .., , e
"tr re 4, IeeNUELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, b- I Air. HUME objected to this vote, unless the SirGovern-
q 111.._.eat such a course
I°I3EIIT IN
vr
o y ineffective. I ment had the complete control of the prisoners after
eper e nen. se e GLIS objected to the amendment ' nviction
ember
earri_
~alember for Montrose. He considered if it I "Sir. J. GRAHAM entered into explanations, and said
eolelser ii"in the. working of the law, for which the Hon. . he held that the control of Gevernment over prosecu.
Tiiletei cnsell professed so strong a regard, would be ; a consideration which weighed
evil
r.
w.lies trueted. nons was ve-y necessary,
and that the present vote con-
eh EY strongly with the late 'Government,
he eh the -00 , condemned the manner in the maintenance of prisoners convicted at the
cerned
i etiew e►r.taws of Ireland were administered. Had - '
eR h e the question assizes or the scatter sessions.
table e' w"uld was aheut to come on this even- - M HFNI EY h eet that the word "maintenance"
le of the have
brought down to the 1.1,,u5e the diet 1 r.
4'
' t ou-
• e this °Taut was to be
would ue union tly exnlained. e s e
tik, he seen t.l of I3romley. in Kent, from which it ' ‘%m'aasden.ftrogir the public ' fund, the public had a right to
%pawed for the that
4''.4.
"f
animal food WAS all that was i know how it was applied.
tteitiltlee "f the e sustenance of an able-bodied man in the Mr. HUME thotieht• that if' the public defrayed the
0 ~_ w ek• In that union, it appeared that 40 i e management fthissystem ought to be
mow who xpense, eke 0 se 4
/ Ito were in one of the workhouses, tented in the publio.