The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-15 00:00:00

'r 17 Ns p 5,74: r, o

repayment of the moneys advanced was also most
lectionable. Money might be levied in Belfast which
been expended on a wholly different part of the
intry. The ingenuity of man could scarcely devise a
o fatal experiment. If Government desired to miti-
the pressure of the 'poor-rate, and to assist in re-
ing the distress under which Ireland was still, and it
to be feared would be for some time to come, suffer-
let them do so in an open and manly way, not by
.aise pretences, by a Bill the long and short of which
was to give a million more money, and that in a way
which would discourage exertion, augment poverty and
misery, and consequently add to the necessities of that
country.—(Hear, hear.) It was not the way to deal
with Ireland to give her to understand that if she did
not repay the loans made to her repayment would not
be insisted upon, but that the loans would become
grants, and payment be evaded altogether. The effect
of such a course was to lead Ireland to depend on
the money of this country, rather than on her own ex-
ertions, and the industry of her people.—(Hear, hear.)
Believing, therefore, that the Bill would be an evil
rather than a benefit to Ireland, he would move as an
amendment that it be read a second time this day six

months.—(Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
the Hon. Gentleman had not fairly represented the
purport and object of the Bill. Though the whole of
the Bill was connected with the repayment of the in-
stalments of the loan 'made for the public works to re-
lieve the distress in Ireland during the last year, there
were three distinct objects in the measure, and even
should the House determine that no portion of the in-
stalments should be re-advanced there was yet another
object for which it was desirable the Bill should pass:
The first part of the Bill enabled Government to re-
advance the instalments as they were repaid for the pur-
pose of completing the works which were left unfinished
last year. The second object was to postpone for half
a year the time for repaying the first instalment; and
the third was to enable Government, looking to the
circumstances of Ireland, to diminish or increase the
number of instalments by which the loan was to be re-
paid, so as to relieve the pressure upon those dis-
tricts which were the most distressed, and to
enable others when time was not an object, and
where it would be an advantage to repay the loan
at an earlier period than was originally intended, to
do so, by diminishing the number of the instal-
ments. With regard to the first object, the power
of re-advancing the money repaid, to which the Hon.
Gentleman had objected, it would be recollected that
the purpose of the works for the completion of which
such re-advances were to be made was to give relief to
the destitute poor, and not the execution of the works
themselves. It was all along understood that when that
purpose was attained the works would be stopped, to be
completed afterwards by the districts themselves, if they
thought fit. At one time, in the year 1847, upwards of
700,000 found employment on these works, and though
it might be charged that in some instances a wasteful
expenditure had been incurred, it was impossible for any
officer of the Government, looking at the extent of relief
required and given, and the difficulties to be encountered,
to confine the expenditure within a reasonable limit. It
was due to Colonel Jones to say, that the firmness and

prudence he displayed had enabled them to reduce this
great army of labourers, without any interruption to
the peace and tranquillity of the country, or suffering
to themselves.—(Elear.) The works for which present-
ments had been made amounted to 8,000,0001. in round
numbers; the sum actually expended was something
under 5,000,000/. But a very considerable portion of the
works was left uncompleted when the Relief Commission,
under Sir J. Burgoyne, commenced operations, early in
the year. This naturally gave rise to numerous com-
plaints, as it left the country, so far as improvement was
concerned, in a worse position than though these works
had never been commenced ; and the Relief Commis-

sioners, i❑ their report, specially referred to the great in-
convenience occasioned by the works being left in an
unfinished state, and urged their completion. The direc-
tion given at the close of the year was to proceed with
those works which were indispensably necessary to com-
plete main lines of communication, and to leave to the
grand juries to make presentments for the others if they
thought proper. The Board of Ordnance had intimated
that to complete such necessary works a❑ expenditure
of 650,0001. would be required, and that the completion
of the whole would cost about 2,000,0001. The comple-

Lion of a certain portion of these works, it was obvious,
would diminish the claims for compensation
from various parts of the country, as the
advantage the estates would ultimately derive
from them would in many cases deprive the
parties of all claim on the ground of present loss. Ac
he had said, Government had received the most urgent
representations from all parts of Ireland as to the ne-
cessity of completing these works; and as an act of jus-
tice, the Government faith having in a manner been
pledged iu the matter, he felt they were bound to afford
some facilities for that purpose. He had much difficulty
in resisting the pressing demands of Irish Members for
large advances of public money to carry out the object,
and he had intimated to them that though he could not
consent to further advances he should not he unwilling
to re-advance the instalments, as they were made for a
certain time, say three years, in order to complete the
works—the Board of Works in all cases to decide whe-
ther the proposed works were fit and necessary. The
yearly instalments amounted to 315,0001., 945,0001.
therefore would be the amount of the three years' in-
stalments. The first object, then, was to complete the
works which had been undertaken under grand jury
presentments for the relief of the destitute poor.—
(llear, hear.) But it seemed there were some districts
in which public works were not the most desirable
way of employing the labouring population in regard to
the country or to the labourers themselves, and where
it was thought they might be more profitably employed
in draining the land than in completing the roads which
had been commenced. An object which was regarded
with great interest by many proprietors in Ireland was
what was called arterial drainage, and a Bill was intro-
duced to make advances for carrying it out, the money
to be obtained from private sources, not the public
funds. So many applications for assistance under this
Act had been made that last year it was found necessary
to vote 307,0001. to give employment in arterial drain-
age during that year. That money was exhausted, and
the Commissioners were left to obtain further funds as
they could from private sources, Government not feelises
justified in making further advances ; the result was
that many works had been stopped. It appeared to him
that it would not be an unwise application of the money
repaid to the Exchequer on the advances already made,
if they were re-advanced for the purpose of giving em-
ployment in this way ; and that when such repayments
were not required by the localities from which they
came, they might be very properly applied to other dis-
tricts in which such assistance was needed.—(Hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM inquired in how many instances
were the drainage works for which advances had been
made, completed ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER doubted
whether the works were completed in more than a few
instances. About 60 of these works were to be com-
pleted during the present summer, but he could not say
whether any of these were finished. Well, the second
portion of the measure was to enable Government to
postpone the period for the payment of the first instal-
ment. The provision as to the repayment was, that the
presentment should be made at the last spring assizes,
and that an instalment should be paid at each subse-
quent assize. But at the spring assizes some doubts had
arisen, consequent upon au opinion given by Justice
Perrin as to the legality of the presentment, end in Ar-
magh and some other counties none had been made. It
was not until the 6th of June that the Court of Queen's
Bench had decided that the presentment was legal, and
that was too late to have the books ready in time for
the assizes. An application had accordingly been made
for further time, which the Government was the more
willing to accede to, knowing the great difficulty all
classes had in Ireland, in making payments during the
three summer months ; they proposed, therefore, to
postpone the first payment until after the summer as-
sizes—(Hear)—by which time he had every reason to
hope (tor there was no ground for supposing that the
harvest, both in grain and potatoes, would not be
tolerably productive, the last accounts of the potato
crop being much more favourable than those received
some days before)—that the parties would be enabled to
pay that which they were undoubtedly bound to pay.—
(Hear.) Then, as to the last part of the measure. It
was well known, that not only could no general rule
be laid down which should be equally applicable to all
parts of the same county, or even the same union. It
was shown by the reports of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners that while in one electoral division the rates
could not be obtained, in another there would be no lack
of funds, and that while in some places the poor-rate
was 12s, to 15s. in the pound, in others it was not more
than 3s. He admitted the heavy burden on the
finances of the country at this time, agnlplanorruwirdoesds.uesptfnalhat Ireland
was bound to pay these advances; but the question was,
whether it would not be impolitic to refuse her some
assistance until she was freed from that distress under
in the west, it was
bfrlte. obiaoneuibtfnerstiiu.dhonnoeggdr impossibleepaf roen rrdn thetohat
which she was still labouring.—(Hear, hear.) The poor-
law rate, which was almost a new burden tolreland, had
amounted up to the last rate to 2,500,0001., and the last
rate alone was 1,500,0001. In many districts, especially
raise the funds
o
prosperity
urluo
ircitamhyl
findplweor sfooes
works
necessarympreleop
whichnya improve-
meets,
wouldna st thosefatoor
rti
entrths giveieteana instalml
ents,
ll
classes, without assistance.—(Hear, hear.) Believing
these objects to be of great importance, it appeared to
him a legitimate employment of these instalments (as
they came in for a limited period only) to advance the
money to those localities by which they were paid, or
should these not require it, then to other districts where
it was most wanted, and thus diminish the pressure for
the ensuing year, and afford the means of giving employ-
ment to the people. On Friday next he should probably
make a statement as to what had been done to
have to
afford relief to the suffering people in those districts in
the west of Ireland, where it was only by the aid of the
enph populationeoe lnaori
atr
agricultural
to
British Association, and the food that remained in the
Government stores, that the people, especially in Mayo,
had been kept alive.
Mr. GOULBURN observed that the Right lion. Gen-
tleman had not referred to those financial considerations
which in his view were the fatal objections to this mea-
sure. Ho had told them that this Bill had three objects
—the advance of moneys for the completion of unfinished
works—the postponement of the period at which the re-
payments were to commence—and the granting a power
of extending the payments of the sum for which Ireland
had contracted for so lengthened a period as in his mind
to render null and void the chances of these payments
being made. If a proposition had been made to postpone
the period of the payment of the first instalment merely
he might have cheerfully acquiesced in such a proposi-
tion. But what did the proposition before the House
mean ? It professed to have the completion of the
public works of Ireland and the extension of arterial
draining in view. Now, if these objects were in view,
how were they to be accomplished without the levy of a
rate ? rat, from the atatement of the Right lion.

Qeutlewsia the attempt to levy a rate would ta,, It
would seem, nugatory and fallacious. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had dwelt upon the evil of undertaking
public works, for the purpose of employing the people
of Ireland, which were not brought to a state of CDM-
pletion. It Was clear_that such works were disadvanta-
geous rather than beneficial to the country, and thus
the community was actually injured by the assistance
which was given to them. But this money, it was as-
serted, was to be applied to a work of great importance
namely, the promotion of arterial drainage; but, if it
were to be applied to that purpose, what was to become
of the completion of those roads which were to have
been of so much advantage in elevating the condition of
the country ? He was actuated by feelings of the
greatest kindness towards Ireland, and was desirous to
join in giving her every assistance whose application
might be useful; but if in carrying out that assistance a
course was to be pursued similar to that which was
adopted when they gave such large sums for the construc-
tion of the roads in that country, which eventually proved
hurtful instead of advantageous, he certainly would not
join in the support of any such course of proceeding.
They would destroy the moral character of the country
if they inculcated the notion that when money was
lent to Ireland that country stood on a different footing
from any other with respect to the repayment of the
loan.—(Hear, hear.) When Ireland was in a state of
great distress, England was called to her assistance;
and the first proposition was to advance a large sum to
enable her to get out of her difficulties, which was to be
repaid by instalments in a series of years. It after-
wards appeared that a full repayment would press too
heavily on her means, and England determined that one-
half of the money should be given as a grant, and that
the remainder should be paid back by instalments.
Under these circumstances he thought that this country
had a right to calculate that the exchequer would receive
back the portion of the money thus promised; hut the
answer was that the money had been spent in unpro-
ductive works. Now, why was this? Because the
people who undertook the management of the present-
ments in Ireland did not distinguish between useful
works and those of an unproductive nature, but pre-
sented for all, and threw the burden of discrimination on
the Government which they should have borne them-
selves. He was disposed to give Ireland every assistance
consistent with the financial prosperity of the country.
but further than that he could not go, recollecting as he
did how closely were the financial and commercial in-
terests of the two countries interwoven. The economi-
sation of the revenue—the equalisation of revenue with
expenditure was a very important point to look to, and
the way to effect this was not by throwing charges on
the consolidated fund. When they heard of 315,0001. a
year being taken out of that fund, it would be well to
see how Ireland stood in relation to it. Ireland already
owed the consolidated fund 8,300,0001. Of that sum

3,400,0001. was owing for debts contracted previously to
1847, and the remainder formed the debt which had been
incurred in the course of that year; yet the amount of
interest paid by Ireland this year was only 3,5001., being
somewhere about 9d. per cent. on the whole loan. Now
when the bargain was made it was understood that it
was to have been adhered to, and that according to the
stipulated terms, 315,0001. a year would be paid by Ire-
laud until the loan was liquidated. Now, when they
were told of an additional million to be taken from the
consolidated fund, it would be well to consider how
this country can bear the remove'. of such a sum in her
present condition. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had distinctly stated that he expected a deficiency of not
less than a million, even under the most favourable cir-
cumstances, and that million would have to be paid out
of the balances of the Exchequer, this, of course,
making them lower than they were at present. The
million which it was proposed to devote to Irish relief
would necessarily be taken from the same source. He
did not pretend to say what was at the present moment
the balance in the Exchequer; but in January last it
was 8,500,0001., while in April it had decreased to
about 6,000.0001. There had been a consideruble falling
off during one period at least of the year, and at no dis-
tant period they might expect this balance to be brought
to a very low point indeed. On economical considera-
tions, therefore, this proposition to draw another
million from that source should not be enter-
tained. The Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to
condemn the Bill on the ground that the poorest districts
of Ireland would be those on which the heaviest rates
would be levied, while they were comparatively ex-
cluded from participation in the proposed grant. He also
strongly objected to entrusting to the Board of Works
the selection of the works which were to be executed,
after the experience they had of the inefficiency of that
board during the emergency of last year. The Right
Hon. Gentleman ought to have come down to that House
with a list of the places which required assistance, an
account of the nature of the works to be executed, and
an estimate of their expense. With such documents
before them, the House-could satisfy itself that the works
were really useful and necessary, and take care that they
should not be executed in districts not requiring assist-
ance by money, the payment of which would fall heaviest
on the poorest baronies.—(Hear, hear.) He had heard
nothing to shake the opinion he had formed when the
Bill was first proposed, and he was therefore determined
to continue his opposition to it for this reason, as well as
those he had stated, that it seemed to him this measure
meant nothing less than an abandoment of the attempt
to levy a rate in Ireland for the purpose of repaying the
loan which had been given to that country.
Colonel DUNNE opposed the amendment. It seemed
to him that it was altogether a matter of necessity that
the measure should be adopted and money distributed in
those districts which were unable to support themselves.
lie admitted that the expenditure of similar grants during
the year just passed had been wasteful and extravagant,
but they should either go the length of letting the people
starve or give them work. It was absurd to expect that
rates could ba collected when the charge on the land in
many cases exceeded its value.
Mr. NE WDEG ATE said it appeared to him that the
greater part of the money spent in Ireland was as much
lost to the resources of the empire as if it were thrown
into the sea, and he was decidedly opposed to a continu-
ance of such a wasteful expenditure. A great mistake
had been made when the proposition to grant a sum of
money for the construction of railways in Ireland had
been rejected. The supporters of that proposition were
told that the length of time which must elapse before
repayment could take place was a fatal objection to the
scheme; but he now asked what chance of repayment
there was of the money which had been advanced, not
for the construction of railways which would have been
advantageous to all, but for works which were actually
injurious to all?—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HERBERT (Kerry), as we understood, opposed
the introduction of this measure, because the area of
taxation would be enlarged in consequence. The best
way to assist Ireland was to individualise responsibility,
but an increase of the basis of taxation would have a con-
trary effect.
Sir R. FERGUSON agreed in the remarks which had
been made with respect to the increase of size in the
unions and electoral divisions. In the large unions the
poor-law was a dead letter, but they had managed, at a
great expense it was true, to struggle through in the
small ones. He for one would not support the Bill if the
Right Hon. Gentleman had selected the machinery of the
Board of Works for directing the operations which it was
proposed to undertake; but he believed that no advances
would be made except in localities really requiring them,
and where the local gentry pressed for them. Ie had
no doubt that the Board of Works would work well if it
were reduced to the footing on which ii originally
stood, namely, the exercise of a system of control, and
to that position he hoped soon to see it brought. It was
well known that in the county of Mayo the Government
last year had been obliged to appoint paid guardians of
the poor, and even now there was not the least possi-
bility of making any levy for the poor rate, still less for
the purpose of public works. In fact, in the west of
Ireland the whole state of society seemed to bo entirely
broken up.
Sir L. O'BRIEN said that, having the honour of fre-
quent interviews with the Right Hon. the Chancellor of
the Exchequer on the subject of this Bill, he felt, him-
self in manner bound to support it, but he thought it
right at the same time to state that ho had received and
presented a petition from the grand jury of the county
of Clare against the measure, and stating that they
would prefer to repay the debt they owed within tea
years rather than have its repayment protracted for three
years longer.—(Hear, hear.) The petitioners described
the reckless manner in which the public advances of
money had been expended; and in that respect they
complained that they had been left no option in the se-
lection of the public works to be executed, but had been
constituted the mere passive agents of the Government
officers; and in consequence they stated that good roads
had been broken up; that the population had been taken
away from the cultivation of the land to be employed
upon unproductive works, and the result had been that
i6no,aonooo
up
te
-rds
oo
on
rs irne
lti he
fe ct
oo u
thent y
ao
mf Co
ul hadanrtell,o been
uul.per
er
month.
However, as this Bill would accomplish one important
and benevolent object, that of postponing the repayment
of some of the advances, on that and other grounds, if
the Government should think it wise to persevere with
the Bill, he should certainly give it his support.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr.
Goulburn) had opposed this Bill as not being a good
part
better
with to
ot
measurehave 1,0 000 f,
ofiunor
icne ; t
ha ne dEhxec
haerqguueerd, tthhaatni tt
owpaas
for the purposes contemplated. As a measure of finance,
he (Lord J. Russell) agreed with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman that if they had simply to consider whether they
would keep 1,000,0001. iu the Exchequer, or whether
they would lend that sum out in the way proposed, it
would be better in the present financial condition of the
country to follow the views of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man. But this was only one portion of the question to
be considered; and looking to the state of Ireland during
the last few years he (Lord J. Russell) could not think
that financial considerations solely ought to govern the
decision of the question.—(Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman had adverted to the public works which
had been undertaken in Ireland. This had been done
under a system which began under the auspices of an
Administration of which the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman had himself been a member, and when large
sums of public money had been grunted and others ad-
vanced for public works during periods of great destitu-
tion aitidheevse supply
distress.yppthiyihg
of The system had been extended far
beyond
which
the
dh
ianda
ry
foodbeen
theprior
peopleto 147 ,
ut-
terly failed. With the experience they had had, he ac-
knowledged that a far better plan to have relieved the
distress of a people who were starving would have been
to have afforded them directly toed in the cheapest pos-
sible mode, rather than the adoption of a mixed mode of
; npuableiwyOrfikns.diEngxptehreimencf(e)ohda, da
shownnd
thatemploying
aalthough
th
em
on h o hmuegh
there was was an apparent advantage in having works of
public utility executed by these paupers, yet that in the
end it would have been a cheaper system to have fed the
paupers, and to have required nothing from them in re-
turn, but to have employed the beatable-bodied labourers
on the public works, giving them such wages as the species
of work on which they were employed deserved. Al-

;WA,

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