The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-27 00:00:00

GROUP X.

The Committee met to-day at twelve o'clock, in Room No 1 (House
of Commons), present Mr. Deedes (chairman), Mr Arkwright, Mr.
Farnham, Mr. Stanley, and Mr. Vivian. They immediately called
on the

CEIZZDONZABT ' (DUNDYVAN B2ANCJI)
A BROAD HINT TO LEADERS.

It was then intimated that the promoters did not mean to call
any further evidence, considering that their case was established as
against the Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands.
Mr. FORSYTH requested that the Committee would grant a few
minutes' indulgence to Mr. Cockburn, Q.C., who, as leading counsel
in this case, was prepared to sum up the evidence of the promoters,
but was unfortunately at that moment engaged in another room.
The Committee, having waited for a consid,rable time, expresses
impatience at the delay, and called on Mr. Forsyth to proceed with
the case.

Mr. Forsyth was most reluctant to do so ii the absence of
2klr. Cockburn, who hut prepargd himself for the task. The Learned
Gent'eman then, as it appeared, went out to hasten Mr. Cockburn.
In his absence,

The CHAIRMAN, addressing, the agent, said that the Committee
did not think it was their duty to the public or to the parties to give
such Indulgence as was here required to a counsel who had paid no
attention whatever to the case from the commencement. They
would not wait any longer for Mr. Cockburn, nor could they see
any reason why Mr. Forsyth, who had diligently attended to the case
from beginning to end, and had heard all the evidence, should not
proceed with h s statement. He was perfectly competent to do so,
and there was no realon for wasting time in extending indulgence to
a gentleman who had sot heard a word of the evidence.

At length, with great hesitation on his own part, tut on the pe-
remptory demand of the Committee, who would wait no longer, it
being one o'clock,
Mr. Foasrru proceeded to make the statement for the promoters
as made out in the evidence.

After the conclusion of Mr. Forsyth'S elaborate and able statement,
Mr. ANDREWS, Q.C., replied on behalf of the Glasgow, Airdrie, and
Itlonklands, dwelling most emphatically upon the great advantages
which that line would confer dpon the whole community of Glasgow,
by choosing the Mile-end district as the site of its terminal station,
and upon the University, by giving a new set of buildings in a far
superior situation.
The room was then cleared for a division, and, on the readmission
of strangers,
The CHAIRMAN announced the decision of the Committee to be,
that_ the preamble of the Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monklands Junction
Bill was proved ; and that the preamble of the Caledonian (Dundy-
van Branch) was not proved.
The consideration of the clauses in the Bill, of which the preamble
was passed, was postponed.
CAMEDOZZIAN (GLASGOW, GARNIEntz,
AND coaTBItIDGE strivvriozr.
The preliminary evidence on this Bill (according to Mr. Dun
combe's resolutions) was then taken,and the Committee adjourned
till twelve o'clock on Thursday, the Chairman expressing a hope that.
the parties would be in readiness, so that the whole might be eon_
eluded on Friday, before the holidays.:

GROUP xr.
The Committee re-assembled this
_day at the usual hour ; lir,
Henley, chairman.

- „
THE AIRDRIE AND BATHGATE AND
EDnvmuiton AND BATIIGATZ.
' The Committee went through the clauses of these Bills, which
were all agreed to, and the Bills ordered to be reported to the
Mouse.
The consideration of the several lines which formed tills group
being finished, the labours of this Committee terminated.

GROUP .
The Committee met to-day at twe:veXlll o'clock.; Sfr William Clay in
the chair.

CALEDONIAN (LANGHOLIII BRANCH).
On the re-assembling of the Committee,
Mr. RICKARDS applied for the production of the agreement between
the promoters of the North British scheme and the authorities of the
Carlisle, respecting the cro sing of Borough-street, about which it
was alleged yesterday that the alteration would be beyond the
Parliamentary line of deviation.

Mr. Osecmte had no objection to the production of the agreement,
except that it might be drawn into an improper precedent. He
understood, however, that the petition of the parties who were
Instrumental to the agreement was withdrawn.
Mr. Ricsaans begged leave to state that such was not the case.
The Corporation of; Carlisle might have withdrawn their opposition,
but the inhabitant bad not.
Mr. OSBORNE said, in that case the agreement would he of no use,
if the parties interested in the agreement had withdrawn from it.
After some conversation pro and con., the promoters of the North
British line agreed to furnish copies of the agreement to the parties
on the other side. •
The examination of witnesses was then proceeded with.
Mr. Williamson, mining engineer, examined. Said he was Inti-
mately acquainted with the Mid Lothian, Berwick, and Canoble coal
fields. He thought that both the Berwick and the Lothian coals,
by the railways in progress of construction, would find their
way to Hawick. The price of screened Berwic k coal at
the pit's mouth was 4s. 6d. The Canoble coal was unscreened. By
the Kelso line of railway the Berwick coal could be laid down in
Hawick at 9s. The distance was thirty-six miles. He did not think
the Canoble coal-field would drive out:the Berwick and Canobie
Itwas not likely that the latter wool dlie on their oars, and allow one
coal-field to drive them out. He did not at all agree with the wit-
nesses who thought that the Canobie was so important to Hawick.
The whole consumption of the Hawick was about 17,000, of which
about one-half might be got from Canobie. This would make their
receipts from coal traffic about 15,0001., or about one-half the sum
the promoters of the Bill calculated. There were about ten pits
in operation in the Berwick district. There was also a con
siderable amount of coal brought from Northumberland into the dis.
trict round Jeciburgh. The table of the North British line in regard
to the coal tragic was the most exaggerated he ever saw. A ton and
a half for each person was quite enough for a district where coal was
cheap, without adding 50 per cent. (here were several parishes

north of Hawick which it was absurd for Mr. Marshall to calculate
would be supplied from Canobie. He bad himself prepared a counter-
table on the mineral traffic that might be expected. He calculated
that the whole of the traffic in coal, including Langton, would yield
2,1191., instead of 12,6991., which they made it. He thought
the expectation of 60,000 tons going to Carlisle most
exaggerated. The coal that was exported from Carlisle
was far superior to the Canobie coal ; it was screened
coal. The Cumberland coal was superior to te Canobie by at least
2s. a ton. The Cumberland coal was shipped last year from Carlisle
at 6s. 6d. a ton. It is more now, but only temporarily so. He did
not think the Canobie coal would successfully compete with the
Cumberland coal at Carlisle, either for shipping or to supply the
wants of the inhabitants. The best Cumberland was 9s. a ton at
the depot, and 5s for culm for manufacturing purposes. The whole
field at Canobie had been assumed oy the Dumfries and Nithsdale
and the Hawick lines to yield 203,000 tons annually.
Mr. Osfroanx said that when his witnesses, Mr. Maxton and Mr.
Gibson were under examination, the other side did not ask single
question a e
question as to the supplies which the Canobie coal-field yielded.
allow
trusted, therefore, if this examination was to goon, they would
coal.
them to recall Mr. Gibson to speak upon the quantity
witnesses after a case was closed. If they did so, there
Mr. HICK/ EDS said it was against all the rules ofevidewnecehitdoherechael
end to the inquiry.
who had bet much
the moment,
positive
de-
claration a s
It
wasT e
hChl At
la:
opinion
e hts aeind
ef thatth
the
t
present was
not
of the witnesses twattmheasteteargeolef
een called on the ether side. He
did not consider there was any necessity for calling back the wit-
nesses referred to.
Mr. HICEARDB—But that opinion is the result of scientific investi-
gation, which is more important than the evidence of a proprietor or
agent, who is interested in giving a favourable representation to the
Witness's examination continued—Me had been exclusively en-
gaged in making immense surveys. He had been employed by the
Duke of Buccleuch, the Marquis of Lothian, and Lord Jedburgh. He
had himself been engaged in a coal-field near Dalkeith as large as the
Canobie field, and all they had been able to raise from it annually
was 30,000 tons. The witness was then examined with the object
of showing that the lime and other mineral traffic had been much
exaggerated. He did not think the Canobie lime would go beyond
Zawick.
Cross-examined by Mr. TALBOT—He thought the Berwick coal
would go up as far as Hawick. At present there was not much
Berwick coal consumed in Hawick. He went into the
Hawick district in November last et the instance
of the Caledonian Company. He spent two days and a night at
Hawick,
inquiring into the coal consumption. He was told by the
manufacturers that they frequently got coal from Berwick, but he
coald not say how much of it was consumed. He could not name
the manufacturers who gave him the information, as he had not his
memoranda here. He had been one afternoon at Canobie, and
examined the strata.
Mr. Nicholas Wood, mining engineer, of Newcastle, said he had
visited many of the coal-fields in the south of Scotland. He agreed
generally with the evidence of Mr. Williamson, that Hawick would
be partly supplied from Berwick and partly from Canobie. He had
looked over Mr. Williamson's tables, and concurred in them.
Cross-examined by Mr. LIDDELL —He did not think an addition of
50 per cent. a fair increase to be made in the tables. Chevington
was the nearest coal-field in Northumberland to Berwick. The
best coal there was 6s. a ton, and the small coal was about 2s. The
best Canobie coal, at the pit's mouth, was ss. 4d., but he did not think
the small coal was so cheap in proportion to the Chevington, as
there was a greater demand for it. If the small coal at Canobie was
as cheap in proportion as the best coal, then, 14 Canobie was
eighteen miles nearer to Hawick than Chevington, the coal of the
former would be used for manufacturing purposes at Hawick, in
preference to the latter. He did not think the Campine coal would
go round by way of Carlisle to be exported. The reason of
coal being so dear last year at Carlisle was on account of the stopping
of the Blenkensop colliery. That also detained the ships from getting
loads. The largest outfit he had known from any pit in one year was
50,000 tons. He thought 50,0110 tons from twelve coal-pits in the
Lothians, as stated by the previous witness, a small quantity.
Mr. Steele, Mayor of Carlisle, and proprietor of the Cariis'e
Journal, deposed that he had paid great attention to the question
of communication with Scotland. He had been examined
last year on the Caledonian Railway. He was decidedly
of opinion that only two through lines into Scotland
could be supported—one on the east side, and another
towards the west. He then supported the Caledonian line, in prefer-
ence to the Nithsdale line, as s ffording the best general accom-
modation. If this line were passed, there would with the Nithsdale
line be two communications to both Edinburgh and Glasgow, which
he did not think the traffic would support. The whole capital thus
required would be to be raised by the bills, 5,160,0001. ; and sup-
posing one-third raised by loan, which was usually done, that would
make a total of 6,1380,000/. From iniormallon derived from engineers,
he calculated the working schemes per mile per annum at 6001.,
which on 367 miles of railway would be 220,0001. Now, that with
an addition of 4 per cent. on the capital would make 233,2001. more,
or a total of nearly half a million, that would have to be raised. He
did not think much stone would be brought by the railway, as it
could be got in large quantities not far from Carlisle. Besides, brick
for building purposes was in the generality of Instances preferred.
The quantity of coal consumed in Carlisle and its neighbourhood was
about 60,000 tons. It was got from various poin's in Cumberland,
and brought by the Newcastle and Maryport Railways. The Cano-
bie coal was ouch that he would not use for household purposes.
There was an extensive quantity exported. The best on board was
83., the second 55., and the small As. The small coal was very well
suited for manufacturing purposes. The Canobie coal would have to
go on to the Newcastle line and go down to the canal by it for
shipping. He thought it could not be shipped tor less than 7s. 7d.
a ton. It would also have to compete with the Maryport line._
Cross-examined He knew that a griat number of the inhabitants
of Carlisle had petitioned for the present line, but he could nut state
what their motives were. Perhaps they might expect supplies of
coal by it. He had given his individual opinion that this coal would
not be much used in Carlisle. He could not speak as to the wants of
the Hawick district.

Mr. Wiliiam Pare, traffic-taker, examined—He took the traffic of
the Hawick and Carlisle turnpike road in 1844, and again in last
autumn. He placed men at different points last year—he took the
first fourteen days in October. He had prepared a table founded on
those observations. He calculated the probable amount of traffic for
post-horses, gigs, and other private conveyances, to be 1,4091. 13s. 4d.;
this was from Hawick to Carlisle. The North British estimated it
at 3,6651. They had added 150 per cent. on that, instead of 100 per
cent., as last year. He had assumed of those that were travelling,
except by post-horses that the half would take the railway. The
general merchandise and agricultural produce he noted in a similar
way; the amount was 1,481/. 17s. 9d. He had excluded in his cal-
culation the fish and meat supposed, on the other side, to go front
Dalkeith and Dunbar, and also the Hawick and Newcastle traffic,
respecting which he cou:d not make any comparison. The item he
named was to set against the 1,5191. in the table on the other side.
Instead of 5,7621. for stone, wood, &c., taken credit for on the other
side, he set down 3911. For small parcels he thought 3,0001. very
much exaggerated. In the tables of the Caledonian line this year he
estimated the through traffic from Carlisle to Edinburgh to be
20,9131, and to that extent the present line would be a competing
line.

Cross-examined—ln some cases he had known 15 per cent. of in-
crease in traffic, and more. The most common rate was 190 per cen•.
It was not common to double the merchandise. He had never known
it doubled, but coal he had. His object in 1844, was to take the
through traffic from Carlisle to Edinburgh from those tables. He did
not assume any traffic between Carlisle, Langton, or Campine, as the
line was not proposei to touch them, and he had nothing to do
with the threugh traffic. -Yot any of the local traffic was
noted. In the last observation, he made the goods between
Langholm and Hawick backwards and forwards to be 1,837 tons per
annum. That was according to the observation of fourteen days.
He did not speak us to the coal at all. He was not aware that large
quantities of grain went from Roxburgh towards Dumfries.
Mr. Collister, resident engineer of the Caledonian Railway, exa-
mined—He had made two surveys of the Hawick and Carlisle line.
He made the last observation about a month ago. He was ob-
structed by the Duke of Buccleuch's gamekeepers but as far as he
could do so he ran levels. The works were very heavy, the valleys
beng steep, and the hills very abrupt. The witness here put in a
section of the works which he had drawn out in which some specifi-
cations were made which did not appear in the plans and
sections of the promoters. The sections of the latter dl.l not
represent the whole of the works. This was in consequence of the
shelving manner in which the line crossed the side of a steep hill.
For thirty miles the line was taken through grawacke or whinstone
rock, the cutting of which would be very expensive. The Teviot was
crossed thirteen times in nine miles. The promoters of the Hawick
gave the estimate of the ordinary earthwork at 111,4481. ; he set it
down at 151,507/. For whinstone—

The CHAIRMAN suggested that the witness had better put in the
details in the form of a table.

Mr. RICKARDS said the table should be supplied to the Committee,
as also to counsel on the other side, and in the meantime a few
minutes would suffice to ask all the questions necessary on the items.
Witness's examination continued—The whinstone and sandstone
cuttings he set down at 519,374 cubic yards, at a cost of 78,7331.,
which they made 497,000 cubic yards, at 70,3471. The tunnel he
estimated at 15,0001., they made it 9,9001. The witness then went
over the viaducts proposed to be made, all which were undervalued.
For all the items he had referred to he estimated 483,6951., instead
of theirs, which was 328,320/. The permanent way, ballasting, Ste.
he set down at 225,8461., instead of 189,2911., their estimate. Ttie
value of the land and the two small branches he took at their
estimate. The result of the whole was, that his total was
820,629/., instead of theirs, which was 660,000/. He had
taken the works at the rates which the Caledonian were let
at. One of the main thoroughfares in Carlisle war crossed on the
level according to the deposited plans. They could not deviate so as
to cross by a bridge, because they could not, according to the de-
posited plans, take sufficient width for the approaches. If Borough.
street was lowered as proposed, it would be below the natural drain-
age of the town. According to the agreement that had been entered
into, the rails would have to be raised eight feet more than they were
stated in the deposited plans. The Caledonian (Langholm branch)

was thirteen miles long. The severest gradient was one in 150, and
the sharpest curve a radius of half a mile. The engineering pecu-
liarities were more favourable than those of the opposing line through
the same tract. The e.timate was 180,0001. ; this included works and
land for a double line, but only a single line of rails was proposed to
to laid down. The works were ger•erally favcurable. There wauld
be no difficulty in making a communication from the line tO the
Cacoble coal-fleids.

The Committee then adjourned till Thursday at twelve o'clock,
when the cross-examination will be taken.

GROUP XIV.
The 'Select Committee appointed to consider the merits of the Bilis
comprised in this group re-assembled at the usual hour this morning,
Mr. Prothcroe in the chair.

MEETIT .A.TrfIOSPIIER.IC SCHEME.
The Committee decided this moruing that the chief plan Included
the Maidstone Branch as a portion of the main line, and the pro-
moters cowl therefore adopt it for entering Rochester.
The examination of Mr. Bherrard, the engineer, was then resumed,
but he added nothing of importance to his evidence which was not
given yesterday.

- On cross-examination, Mr. Sherrad stated that his estimates did
not include the atmospheric pipe nor either the payment for the
patent right or the stationary engines. In laying out the line he
had no specific mode of working in view, because his instruction from
Mr. Cubitt, the consulting engineer of the line, was to procure a line
with a ruling gradient of lln 80. The witness was cross-examined
at considerable length with a view of showing that his comparison
between the two lines, both as regarded gradients, tunnels, with
stations and lengths, had been made upon an erroneous principle.
The Committee then adjourned till Thursday, at twelve o'clock.