The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-23 00:00:00

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before the Committee of that House should lay facts before
the House upon which they might arrive at .1 conclusion
on this subject, and he certainly thought that when the
proper time should conic for taking such decision, evidence
of a valuable nature would be found to have been given. Ile
had been glad, he must say, to hear sonic of the opinions
which had been delivered by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He
Was not quite prepared, at the same time, to accede to the
accuracy of the Right Hon. Gentleman's account of all the
evidence which he had brought under their notice that even.
ing, and particularly of that which had been given before the
Committee by the Governor of the Bank of Ireland, for that
gentleman had said lie conceived that the Act of 1844 hail
given greater stability to the Bank and greater confidence to
the public.—(Hear, hear.) He should rather, then, have
said that his evidence was favourable, and not unfavourable,
to the Act of 1844. The Right lion. Gentleman also stated
that which certainly was not stated at the earlier periods of
these discussions, viz., that the commercial distress of 1847
was in no degree traceable to the Act of 1844. But that
was not the language that was held in the autumn of 1847,
when the commercial distress was attributed to that Act.
With respect to the report of the Committee of the House of
Lords, it was certainly not in favour of the views w hich he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) entertained of the Act of 1844.
It said, however, and particularly in the evidence from
Glasgow, that speculation—railway speculation—was very
rite in Scotland, where failure overtook the commercial
houses there, and that those which did fail in that part of
the country were more or less engaged in that speculation.
Mr. Gurney, too, stated most distinctly that, in his opinion,
the Act of 1844 had nothing to do with causing the com-
mercial distress in question—and that certainly it had
nothing to do with scarcely any of those great failures
which took place before the month of September. It was
some satisfaction to him, he must say, to find this confirma-
tion of the views he had himself expressed on former occa-
sions, and that, further than this, there had been evidence
given which bore out the observations ho remembered lie
had himself made, as to the injurious tendency of the want
of precautionary measures on the part of the Bank of
England at an earlier period of the year, than that
at which they were ultimately adopted. With respect
to the time at which the Government's letter to the
Bank of England was issued, it could not be doubted that
the result of the week in which it was issued showed that
they were right in sending forth that letter. Mr. Gurney,
too, spoke favourably of the principle of the Bank Charter
Act, and anything lie had said against it was only in conse-
quence of the pressure that took place under it. As re-
garded the operation of the Act of 1844 in a drain of gold,
all the witnesses before the Committee of the House of Lords
Were agreed, and said that it was precisely that which,
even if that Act were not law, ought to take place. As to
the case of its checking an issue arising from a speculative
demand, if an issue of paper tended to produce speculation,
then a restriction of the issue must be beneficial. The Act
011344 was admitted to be useful in limiting the issues of
country banks; and if an issue of paper by country bankers
Would have the mischievous effect of aggravating prevalent
evils, similar issues, not based on gold, by the Bank of
England, would have produced the same effect. The
evidence given before the Lords' Committee showed the
nature of the crisis which took place in October last did
not arise from the want of circulation of bank notes, for
there were in the hands of the public 4,000,0001. mdre than
pthe 'wants of the country required. The evidence of Mr.
ney was almost conclusive on that point. Mr. Horsley
Palmer' stated in his evidence that from the best opinion he
could firm there were nearly 3,000,0001. in notes issued
Merely for the maintenance of credit, and not for the pur-
Poses of circulation. He thought the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose had correctly represented that period, not as a currency
bat as a commercial crisis.—(Hear, hear.) The
question was not what was the amount of? paper which
Ought to be substituted for gold, but the question was, what
Measures were necessary for supporting public credit, and
...Preventing the recurrence of an extreme state of panic and
'tarn). Mr. Tooke was of opinion that nothing could be more
Mischievous than the issue of paper for the mere purpose
of supporting credit, and that the Bank never could do any-
thing more injurious than to issue merely for the support of
commercial credit. The fact was that no fixed or certain
rule could be laid down for dealing with such crises or emer-
gencies, which were exceptions to all rules and all laws,
and must be dealt with accordingly.—(Hear, hear.)
He could not see how any fixed principle could be laid down
for dealing with such contingencies--extraordinary cases de-
manded extraordinary remedies. Let them consider what
Would have been necessary to support credit in 1847. But,
in the first place, let them reflect on the sort of credit which
they would have been then called upon to support. He would
just read to the House a portion of the evidence of Mr. James
Andrews Anderson. Mr. Anderson was asked—
n..“ What were the other causes to which you attribute the
aullculty 2—The great cause was the investment of a large
amount of capital in railways, and the speculation concomi-
taut with that investment. I mean the purchase and sale—
the gambling, in fact, in shares of railways.
Was that speculation very rife in your part of Scotland?
a--It was, among all classes.
" Were those houses which have suspended payment during
1847 and 1848 generally engaged in railway speculations?—
Yes, almost in every case, more or less.
" Their accounts have, I suppose. a good deal come under
Your notice ?—Yes ; when I say railway speculations, I
should perhaps say speculations in shares generally; be-
cause there were speculations in other shares as well as
railway shares ; but the railways were the great source of
speculation.

" Did you find that parties drawing bills took unusual
Deana of obtaining money for the purpose of carrying on
tailwarspeculation?—Yes ; a considerable part of the loss
sustained by the bank with which I am connected arose
'torn that cause, from parties ostensibly drawing bills for
their business transactions, which turned out upon their
failure to hare been drawn against railway speculations;
.L they :were .represented to. be business bills, but in reality
they Were drawn in order-to support speculations in railway
shares.

" Will you explain how that was done ?—A cotton manu-
facturer connected himself with a cotton twist dealer, and the
one drew bills upon the other, which we supposed were for
the purchase of twist for his manufactory; and it turned out
Ito be nothing of the kind, but merely connected with specu-
,lations in shares."
-Now this was the description of credit which was prevalent
in 1846 and 1847—a fictitious credit. A drew upon B
and B drew upon A. for no real transaction of any sort, kind,
.or description.—(Hear, hear.) - A system of credit was thus
built up_ of the most mischievous description, The moment
the slightest check interposed in the facilities for obtain-
ing money, the whole fabric tumbled to the ground—
the bubble burst, and this was one specimen of a system of
credit not based upon gold. Neither the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman-the Member for Stamford nor the Hon. Gentleman
the Member for North Warwickshire had stated what
amount of paper issue they would have based upon credit.
If they had done so he would know how to deal with them ;
but when they were told that the Act of 1844 had obstructed
a fair support to the commercial credit of the country,
he liked to call the attention of the House to the sort
• of credit which was prevalent at the period adverted
to, and which was manifested by the evidence of Mr.
Anderson. He objected to this proposal as vague and
indefinite—he objected to it because it pointed to the relaxa-
tion of the Bill of 1844, as the only possible remedy for
any commercial distress or discredit which might exist in
this country. If commercial distress and discredit took
place coincident with adverse foreign exchanges, he thought
the remedy of both Honourable Gentlemen ( Mr. Herries and
Mr. Newdegate) inapplicable, according to their own admis-
sions, for a contraction of paper issue would be the necessary
consequence of adverse foreign exchanges. Again, adverting
to the opinions of Mr. Tooke, he might state that Mr. Tooke
was of opinion that a paper currency ought to be a mere sub-
stitute and representative of gold—not the representative of
any national debt or tax. If the paper currency was to have
any reference to bullion, and that it surely ought to have,
be would like to know under what circumstances it would
take place if gold was unattainable? If paper was to be
'the substitute of gold, why should paper be obtainable when
gold was not to be had ?
An Hort. MEMBER But there were fourteen millions
locked up in the Bank.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was pre-
pared to defend the propriety of obliging the Bank of Eng-
and to limit its issue within a certain amount. But the
question after all came to this. Both Honourable Gentlemen
admitted that the paper issue ought to bear some relation to
the amount of gold in the coffers of the Bank. Then what
relation were they prepared to substitute for the present
one?—(Hear, hear.) The Hen. Gentleman opposite had al-
luded to the case of Hamburgh, in which he said paper
Was issued as a substitute for gold. In Hamburgh
it was true they had a paper circulation, but all the paper
that was out was represented by silver in the coffers of the
bank. The bank gave a receipt for the silver, which was
equivalent to holding so much money. Now suppose a
state of commercial discredit to occur in Hamburgh, and
that it was proposed that the bank should issue a receipt for
silver which it had not received, would not that be consi-
dered a very rotten system? But it was nearly the same
thing to issue Bank of England paper in this country
which issue would not be based upoh gold. With respect
to the recommendation of the Committee of the House of
Lords, to"which the Right Honourable Gentleman had ad-
verted, it was true it recommended the removal of the re-
strictive clauses of the Act of 1844, and the restoring to the
Bank the powers of issue, and which would not tie it down
to the amount of gold actually in its coffers. Mr. Gurney
had upon this point truly stated that the removal of such a
restriction would be' a perfect abrogation of the Act of 1844,
and if that question was to be discussed, it was better that
the repeal of the Act of 1844 should be proposed to the
House. But before that was done, they ought to bear in
mind what had Occurred in 1840 and 1841. A Committee
sat upon that subject in those years, and all parties were
then agreed that the amount of issue ought not to be
left to the unfettered discretion of the Bank of England.
(Hear, hear.) Having had the honour of being the
chairman of the Committee then appointed, he must now
say that it would be most monstrous and inconsistent
to do that now which all rational men who had considered
the subject then objected to. The Honourable Mem-
ber for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) had then stated
the sound and just opinion upon the subject—that beyond the
maximum amount issued' upon securities, the remaining
issue ought alone to take place upon gold. He could see
no advantage in giving Government the power of relaxation,
and Mr. Fullerton was of the same opinion. It was con-
trary to what had been recommended by the Committee of
1841 to leave the full discretion in the Bank of England—it
Was totally adverse to the Act of 1844, which, however, left
the recommendation of the Committee of 1841 untouched in
its provisions--namely, that in extraordinary cases, as in
1825 and 1847, there should be some department possessed
of Power to act according to the circumstances of the emer-
feucY- Such, 'too, was the opinion entertained by Mr. Hus-
,lBson- If those crises should again unfortunately occur
."Y must be dealt with according to their peculiar eir-
,eTtistances; and he believed in the words of the Committee
?' the House of Commons, that it was far hett-r it should
be left to the di,cretion of the Goverument to tateriere
.when it might think tit than to attempt by law to
for • a state of cireutu-tanee. ratio!, neither were liiiuscim
nor anticipated. Mr. Gurney, when asked what were the
circumstances which would justify the Government in inter-
fering, replied that it was impossible to state them before-
hand, and in that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
quite agreed. Mr. Gurney was clearly of opinion that this
Power exists where it might and must be of a discretionary
character. The remedy which under one state of circutn-
stlinces might be useful and availing, might, under another
position of affairs, be useless and unavailing. He had been
led away further than he ought to have been with this dis-
c,easion, but as those topics had been broached, and as the
*light Hon. Gentleman urged the Government to give some
opinion upon them, he had thus far trespassed on the at-
tention of the House. He had only to say, in conclusion,
view whenever this subject was brought forward with the
zi of inquiring and coming to a practical conclusion, he
d be ready and willing to exptain his views; but he
uta
thoulght the present discussion would not lead to any prat:-
conclusion acid therefore, as he remained unchanged in
his former views,' he must move the previous questron.
me ndm en t was
ThreeTheamendment orfourHon.
I,tilienlenbporust.
ad-
dress the House. The S
Mr. Spooner, left the House rose simultaneously to
•oPl(runheirr.oenr,fohraavinfgewgivneinipporteesc,ednenntcemtro.
having
documents,been so absorbedadv with the arrangement of ins
roar of laughter addressed d the table,and amidst a
advanced
vacant
ant chair
thus
Speaker, I rise for the purpose." The laughter of the Holisre.

called the attention of the lion. Gentleman to the absence,

the Right Hon. Gentleman, and lie sat down. When thr

Speaker resumed his seat,
Mr. SPOON ER said he was of opinion, notwithstanding
what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated, that the
Right lion. Member for Stamford had laid a strong ground
for the adoption of his motion. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer said that the Government would interfere
to suspend the operation of the Act of 1844 when a
state of things similar to that which existed in 1847
should again arise; but why should the country be ex-
posed to an amount of suffering such as it then endured
before a remedy could be applied? Was the Right Ho.
nourable Gentleman aware that the depreciation of pro-
perty between 1846 and 1847 extended as far as '250,000,000/. ?
The Hon. Gentleman then read several extracts from the
evidence of Mr. J. Loyd. to show that that gentleman
thought that in some circumstances a relaxation of the Bill
which he himself had framed should take place. He objected
to any system which the Government could deal with as they
thought fit. This great commercial country ought to regulate
its own monetary system, so that it should-regulate itself; and
not produce such fluctuations as had taken place under the
law of 1844. But he would refer to the history of the ques-
tion further back than the period at which the Right Hon.
Gentleman commenced. I.le was an anxious auditor of the
debates on this subject in 1810 and 1811 ; and he would sal
that in all the great prineiples laid down by Mr. Horner lie
concurred. The Hon. Gentleman then reviewed the history
of this subject, and deprecated the resumption of cash pay-
ments on the ancient standard. Previously to 1816 they had
a double standard of silver and gold, and the debtor might
pay in the cheaper metal; but, by the alterations in the law,
a more stringent system was adopted, the effect of which
had been shown in the subsequent commercial distress of the
country. After some observations on the effect of the Act of
1819, in necessarily causing fluctuation, the Hon. Member
said, that his Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth might
ask him, as he had before, " What is a pound ?"—(" Hear,"
and a laugh.) He (Mr. Spooner) knew that a pound was a
piece of gold of a certain value and fineness, stamped in a
certain way ; but the question was, what ought to be a pound ?
—(Hear, hear.) In 1819 the inquiry ought to have been,
what was a pound in relation to the debt of the country, in
relation to mortgages. and to the position of debtor and credi-
tor; and it would not do now, after the country had been
ruined, to turn round and, in a cold phlegmatic manner, to
ask " What is a pound?" It was in vain to attempt any al-
leviation of the distress so long as they relied upon any fluc-
tuating basis, any demand for foreign corn upon anything
that should call upon the Bank of England to find gold for
its notes that were in circulation. It was then they com-
menced their onward course towards bringing the Bill of
1819 into operation; and seeing the exchanges against them,
they put out their paper merely to go the same round again
of prosperity and adversity. If they were regulated by the
exchanges, what were they to do next year? Did any
man anticipate anything less than an immense import of
corn? How was it to be paid for? Some said by our ma-
nufactures; but had not the bullion gone out before, and
would it not go out again ? To be brought back, it was
said ; but at what a sacrifice. He pointed out the effect
that the drain of gold would have upon the labourers in
England, and in preventing this country rendering assist-
ance to Ireland. Unless the currency was extended, a
heavy responsibility would rest upon the Government. He
was asked, would he have an unlimited issue of paper, and
unlimited speculation? His idea of convertibility was that
a note was convertible into what a man wanted. If it
were a legal tender, if it would pay all taxes and all
debts, and purchase what any man required, that was
convertibility, not into gold, but into all the practical neces-
sities and purposes of life. He implored the Noble
Lord not to be led away by the vaain philosophy of the day,
but, like Mr. Pitt in 1797, to rise above the trammels,
and adapt his proceedings to the circumstances of the
times. Let the gold go abroad to bring in food, but,
at the same time, let there be a circulating medium
representing all the property of the country, and then
our labourers would find that we were not only able to
feed them, but to dispense a large and liberal measure of re-
lief to Ireland, and turn that discontented population into a
peaceful and loyal people, and meanwhile a stock of manu-
factures would be accumulating, which would enable us to
get back our gold again. He trusted that Parliament would
not separate while Members had nothing to tell their con-
stituents but that when famine pressed, proposals for mea-
sures of relief were met with the previous question—that the
Ministers were hesitating and doubting—that they had no
opinions—and that at the approach of the storm they dared
not pledge themselves to any course of conduct that might
avert it. If that went forth among the people despondency
would be the consequence, and there was RO knowing what
might be the result. There was a remedy; let them apply
it. Let them call forth the energy of the people and set the
credit of the nation free.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, I was quite prepared to bear my Hon.
Friend claim credit for entire consistency on the subject of
the currency, and I, for one, am prepared to concede his
claims. But I confess that I was not prepared to hear from
him that he was a disciple of Mr. Horner. My Hon. Friend
says that he disagreed with Mr. Homer in the practical con-
clusion he came to that cash payments should be resumed in
the year 1819, but that in the reasons and arguments which
he used he entirely concurred. Why, Sir, if there be any
communication between those who are living and those who
are departed, Mr. Horner must now be shuddering in his
grave at being represented by the Hon. Gentleman—
(Laughter)—by an Hon. Gentleman who proposes that the
circulating medium shall be represented, not by gold, but by
the debt of the country—(Laughter)—se that if you have now
an annual expenditure of 50,000,000/.—and if you increase
that expenditure to 60,000,000/., although you may think
your resources do not justify that increase, yet you
are to issue paper money, not convertible into-gold, on no
other foundation than your own necessities ; and thus you
are to have a constant interest in incurring debt, from which
the ready means of relief is to be, an issue, in proportion, of
paper, which is to be always received into the Exchequer in
liquidation of debts due to the State.—(Hear, hear.) So that
you are to have a direct interest in indefinitely increasing the
debt, and your currency is to be in proportion to your debt.—
(Hear, hear.) But when my Hon. Friend goes further and
proposes to convert the whose property of the country into
circulating medium, and yet says he is the representative of
Mr. Horner, I own that he does excite my surprise.
Mr. SPOONER explained that his proposition was limited
to the amount of Government expenditure, for which the
whole property of the country was liable.
Sir R. PEEL—My Hon. Friend by no means mitigates my
alarm by his explanation—(A laugh)—for I think I remem-
ber to havneohedairm
di,hniimsh say
rf saiolltimerestmhsing about property afford-
ithga t
adfoaeisr and just foundation for the currency, and I own
which theytetnopwinoiounldahsavtoe
uthpeonefftehcet
establishmentt
currency in its relation with sforeignsystem
countries.—( Hear.) But
when my Hon. Friend speaks of representing the opinions of
Mr. Homer, I think he has forgotten what really passed in
1810. The seventh resolution, moved by Mr. Horner, pro-
vided that no contract undertaken for the paymentged
in
of acertain
pounds
specifiedb be legally of money
s, except in gold
coin weight; and that the promissory
notes of the Bank of England
Ivste
dreoeas sntoiptualaptpioenartothpaatythceerne
tarn sums in pounds sterling.
r n at e
estimates,
tet
uer r)ofe
tshhee
navyre anyesrtetfineraatnez
orto
thet h e army
worae miscellaneousst
amounts that might be voted for the ordinary x
the country.—(A laugh.) On the contrary, all SreferrerS to
the pound sterling.—(Hear.) And the resolutions of Mr.
Horner went on to state that, when Parliament suspended
cash payments there was no intention to alter the value of
those promissory notes of the Bank of England—that they
borrowed money from the public creditor, telling him that
on the return of peace he should be paid in gold. Indeed,
nothing otherwise was ever intended, and all those who
lent money at that time were entitled to be paid in
gold on the faith of that promise. Now, does the Hon. Gen-
tleman, who says he agrees in the argument of Mr. Horner
—does he agree to that?—(Cheers and laughter.) The re-
solutions of Mr. Horner went on to say that the state of the
foreign exchanges must be taken into account in regulating
the currency. Yet my Hon. Friend blamed the report o the
Committee of the House of Lords because it referred to the
state of the exchanges in connexion with the question of the
currency. Now, why did not my Hon. Friend in 1810,
warn the country of the dangers upon which he has spoken
to-night ?—( Cheers.) He says that he concurred in the
principles of Mr. Horner's resolution—then why was he
silent on the dangers which he says were to be apprehended
from them ?
Mr. SPOONER—I was not in the House in 1810.
Sir R. PEEL—My Hon. Friend says he was not in the
House in 1810, but then he argues that it was possible in
1819 to have estimated the depression of the funds. I fully
admit that that would have been possible--(Hear)—and we
should then have paid some ss. or 7s. in the pound less.
I am not saying that it would have been just, but that it was
possible for Parliament to have done this. Parliament might
have said, we have made a promise, it is true, but we cannot
fulfil it. That, however, would have been very unjust.—
(Hear, hear.) But I will tell my Hon. Friend, who adheres,
he says, to the principles of Mr. Horner, that although a man
who owes a pound and pays only 15s. will gain something,
yet all that will not alter the currency as regarded all future
transactions. Alter the paper as you will, practically the
same state of things will arise—whether the note be worth
12s. or a pound, there will be the same obligation to keep
your promise ; and the effect will be the same as to the pres-
sure upon commerce at particular times and the difficulty of
obtaining money.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, my Hon. Friend
of 1844, the great says he is in a small minority in this House in his views
oonutthis question. But I very much doubt whether, of those
I think
of doors who are anxious for an alteration in the Act
Act, and that their Friend. majority are not with my Honourable
thinkrinethat those persons care very little about
those minor setiirons involved in the opposition to that
main hope is of an unlimited paper
currency.
I restricted currency they look upon those who wish for a
for unlimited paper ass Public enemies, and those who are
witness examined, Mr. ra"c benefactors. There was one
andlt, a chosen champion of the opi-
dgentleman who expressed his
nions of Birmingham,
opinions with a bolness ana nfidence in their accuracy
which commanded our attention— boldness even exceed-
ing that ascribed to him by the
true that my
er. lsOilsite length, and
Gentle-
man the Chancellor of the-ExehequT
Honourable Friend
atd m
tanteatiwonhaelthpeurplercoertrieocutllay
be understoodissued
ad yi,i)ptt:tnsi
of his witness
among the rest I asked him:—
tl Will
thatthat s
till the period when prices were remunerative, and
sayingW
industrious able-bodied man found full empinymeatv;ry,
Certainly,
" When that object had been achieved you would fix your
standard at that point ?—Yes.
" Till you had achieved that object, till prices were remu-
nerative, and all able-bodied industrious men had employ.
ment, we should have an unlimited issue of paper ?—Yes ;
the only reason that I say that is, that, under the present
system, we have so far departed fiim what is right in the
basis; we have had such extraordinary fluctuations, that we
cannot now tell where we are. It r. wee-wary, therefore,
.te
take but the real pi ineiple is, l h.d the I.o,ourei
should have his wage--., the Inirmiai turem his po slid dial
the eredarir u,luould hats hi, due: that the I,ll,,ititri• ,buttla
have his value for his labour, as well as the s,ealtii etas, t
lir
creditor, the value for his money.
" Do I correctly state your views, when I state that you
would propose that national paper should be issued without
limit, or without any reference to any metallic standard of
value, until that period should have arrived when the prices
generally should give to every able-bodied industrious man
full employment ? —You correctly understand me."
I then afterwards asked the witness :
" Is there not an association in Birmingham on the subject
of the currency ?—Yes.
"Are the views which you have expressed the views of
that association ? —Yes.
" Are you a member of it ?—Yes.
" Though some individuals may differ from the views
which you have expressed, are they not the general views of
the association ?—They are.
"Did you ever hear any one dissent from them ?—I think
not ; at any rate, those who have dissented have ceased to
dissent.
" But did you ever find anybody successfully contend
against those views ?—No ; I ne
it." ver heard anybody attempt
(Laughter.) I wonder much if my Zion.that
Mr. thinks
Mr. Salt is a disciple of Mr. H orner. —( Laughter. ) M
Hon. Friend says that he is in a small
minority in this
House; but among ail the great writers and talkers about
the currency, depend upon it ithathe is sympathised with in

ill which lie says about retuning to the old system. With I
respect to the motion now before us, my Right Ilon. Friend
(Mr. Ilerries) invites the House to enter into a pledge with
respect to what its proceedings will be next Parliament ;
but, although the promoters of disaffection and of disloyalty
to the present system throughout the country derive little
sati-faction from his former motion, they will not feel better
satisfied with the present. He does not ask the House to
alter the law ; he merely asks it to take the subject into its
serious consideration next session, and serious, no doubt, it
will be; but what advantage can be derived from adopting
such a pledge. Now, I address myself to those who disap-
prove of my views upon the subject of the currency. 1
think the credit of the house does not stand high as regards
the adoption of great practical reforms. We have shown
rather a taste for discussion—(Laughter)—than for practical
legislation. We are now arrived at the 22d of August, not
having made much progress with practical measures, not, in
fact, having fulfilled our indispensable engagements, and yet
we are asked to draw a bill at six months on the next
session. And under what circumstances was the House
asked to give the pledge? 1 was one of those that my
Right Honourable Friend referred to as having retired
from active service. I attended, however, last Tuesday, in
order to be present at the discussion. My Right Honourable
Friend said that there was an intense anxiety throughout
the country on the subject of that motion. Why last Tues-
day I found thirty-five Members present at the time my
Right Hon. Friend should have brought on his motion. To-
night I returned, and there were only forty-two Members
present, when an Hon. Member moved that the House be
counted. Is it likely that any recommendation of a House
that shows so little of that intense anxiety which my Right
Hon. Friend referred to, will have much weight with the
country? My Right Hon. Friend, indeed, indulges in figu-
rative language, and says, that the House, " like a wounded
snake, drags its slow length along " At all events, let us not
give ourselves the air of the boa constrictor, and end the pa.
rallel by enacting the needless Alexandrine. The Right
Hon. Baronet proceeded to say that he was unwilling to in-
cur the charge of whiffling discussion. When the proper time
came he should maintain to the utmost of his power the policy
of preserving the restrictive clauses of the Act of 1844. He
believed that these clauses prevented the country from
having in April last superadded to commercial distress the
danger of political convulsion. Without these clauses he
believed the Bank would have persevered from April to
June, as they had done from January to April, in• extending
their securities at the time the gold was leaving their
coffers. At the proper moment he would take up the Lords'
report and put aside the Commons' report, with which he
agreed. He would be prepared to impeach the Lords' re-
port, and do all he could to show that the most impolitic
arrangement that could possibly be made would be to invest
the Bank of England with a discretionary power of relaxing
the restrictive clause of the Bank Charter under the con-
ditions proposed. He would endeavour to show that it
would be infinitely safer for the country to reserve the
discretionary power in the hands of the Government, to be
exercised upon their responsibility to Parliament. The
Right Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to specify the
conditions under which paper money could be circulated in
the three kingdoms without any deposit being required of
gold. 33,000,0001. in notes could be issued without the
deposit of a single ounce of gold. To meet the monetary
exigencies of the country more was required, and the ar-
rangement was that notes might still be issued, but in order
to secure their convertibility it was required that an equal
amount in gold should be deposited. A paper currency of
48,t 00,000 was available on a deposit of 15,000,000 of gold.
It had been said that the 15,000,000 was a dead weight,
and that it was lying idle. It was no such thing; it formed
the guarantee for the • convertibility of the 48,000,000 of
paper money. The necessity of this precaution was well
shown by the facts which came out in connexion with the
great failure of 1847. These facts showed the great risk
which existed of credit being abused, and he thought it
could be easily shown that it was owing to the restrictive
clauses in the Bank Charter, which enabled the directors to
mitigate the distress by acting with the liberality which they
had done. It was impossible to overrate the importance of
preserving the convertibilityof the bank note. The experience
of all countries had shown that the nearer they approached
the English practice, the less was the variation in the rate of
interest, and of discount, and the less the amount of annual
discredit. He thought the greatest calamity that could
befal the country would be to entertain the notion that, in
times of pressure, the true way to mitigate the calamity was
to issue more paper money. Depend upon it that such
course would prove a mere postponement of the evil. Then
with respect to the Lords' report, continued the Right Hon.
Gentleman, I rejoice that it has been adverted to, because
it gives me the opportunity of warning the people against
being misled by the doctrine which it promulgates. I do
not deny the ability with which it was drawn up. I do not
know who wrote it; but whoever is the writer, it is evident
that he is anxious to bring prominently forward every
defect in the Act of 1844. It is not friendly to that Act. I
do not say it is unfairly hostile or adverse; but there are
great omissions made. It is said that the Acts of 1844 and
1845 contained many provisions that were judiciously calcu-,
fated to secure the convertibility of the bank-note. Objec-
tions are indicated, but they are not specified. An alteration
indeed is suggested in the ratio that ought to exist between
the issue and the deposit of silver ; but I think that very
little would be gained by an alteration. The chief recom-
mendation is the one which goes to confer a discretionary
power en the Bank to relax, under certain contingencies,
the restrictive clauses. I assert that to grant such a power
will be in the face of all experience. You only passed the
Bill of 1844—passed as the Right Hon. Gentleman truly re-
marked, with such general concurrence, because you were im-
pressed with this conviction, that the directors had possessed
a discretionary power, and had not wisely exercised it in
time of pressure; and in 1825, 1837, and 1839 the Bank, hav-
ing a complete discretionary power, the result of three years'
inquiry was that the discretionary power so possessed could
not be safely left where it was, and you imposed the restraint
embodied in the present law. The report proposes that the
discretionary power should be conferred under the condition
that it shall only be exercised when the exchanges are fa-
vourable to this country. If the discretionary power be right
and proper to be given, the restriction as to the exchanges is
a very unwise one. By agreeing to the recommendation you
make it next to impossible for the Government to act again
as it did in October last, because the answer to Parliament
would be, that the Bank directors were the parties entrusted
with the exercise of the discretion. In fact, the adoption of
such a change would practically be to augment the restric-
tion which already exists. The exercise of the power
which the Government put forth in October is no impedi-
ment whatever of the Act of 1844. That Act is governed
by principles, and so long as they exist the rule is
obeyed; but when a state of things arises which defies
principles, ordinary rules cannot apply. Mr. Huskisson
stated that it was impossible to frame laws to meet every
case; and when I introduced the Bill of 1844 I made the
same admission. The same thing happens in the operations
of nature. You take precautions against all ordinary dan-
gers, but dangers will arise which could not have been
foreseen, and against which prudence could take no precau-
tion. An officer on a railway, in charge of Smith O'Brien,
found a train which he desired to proceed to Dublin. The
man in charge of it told him he could not comply, as he
was under orders to go to Limerick ; upon which the officer
produced a pistol, and threatened to shoot him if he did not
obey his orders. I approve of the act, and I am satisfied
the House would indemnify the officer, if indemnity was ne-
cessary. But although I say this, I do mean to pass
a law authorising any man to act as this officer did
under similar circumstances. Circumstances must justify or
condemn the act; laws cannot meet every contingency. In
the case of machinery, it is impossible that explosions
can be entirely prevented, and when they do occur,
the strong hand must be taken to rectify and mitigate
the evil. Panics may be deemed explosions in the
monetary and commercial world. It is impossible to pre-
vent them ; and as they are not governed by principle, it is
much better not to foresee them or to attempt to provide for
ao t hei r parties,
interference w h os e
was dut y i
them, but to leave the matter in • the hands of the re-
sponsiblerert
The
is
necessary is
toconvince Parliament
th
highly complimentary to the directors. report
of the Bank of
England. I think they deserve it. I think that the
directors who were examined before the Committes of
both Houses gave evidence which showed that they
might be entrusted with a wide discretion, and that
they had entitled themselves to the utmost credit. It w
competent for the Committee to call any number of direc-
tors they pleased, but they only called five. We called but
four, though we might have called any number we pleased.
The Lords have declared that they place the greatest possible
confidence in the discretion and prudence of those gentlemen ;
but when I look at their evidence—when I refer to the
testimony_given by Mr. Morris, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Cotton,
and Mr. Norman, I find them all declaring and advising that
the Bank Act of 1844 should not be relaxed. It is true that
Mr. Horsley Palmer dissented, and that he expressed him-
self in favour of a relaxing power; but when asked
whether that power should be entrusted to those
for whom restrictions were intended, he said, that
to give the power to the Bank of England would
be a violation of the law, as it would be absurd to restrict
with one hand and to relax with the other. The Bank says
that it is a commercial community, and that, as it is subject
to pressure, it is necessary for it to have the autho-
rity of the law to enable it to resist that pressure. I
hope you will continue the restrictions they ask you for—
that you will not confound the issue of paper money with
the capital of the country, and that you will not believe
that it is in the power of the Bank of England to
diminish or raise the rate of interest to the extent that some
people suppose. I hope you will bear in mind that trade is
carried on with capital, and not with paper money, except so
far as paper is the representative of gold, and that the carry-
ing on trade with credit means only that you trade, not with
other persons' credit, but on their capital.—(Hear.) I trust
you will recollect that the greatest advantages which a coun-
try can have is a fixity in the value of its money, and a secu-
rity for its convertibility ; and that, unless you have that
fixity, you will not have a security for that convertibility.
Remember, also, that if you have not those advantages, there
is not any class in this great community which will not suffer.
All concerned in commerce and manufactures must suffer,
but those chiefly will suffer who depend for daily subsistence
upon the wages Of labour.—(Hear, hear.) Depend
upon it, if the currency is to be reduced in value, there will
not be at first any corresponding reduction in the value of
the articles to be purchased, but the two shillings and three
shillings a day of the labourer will become gradually of less
value than heretofore.-- ( Hear, hear.) Depend upon it,
there is not one class in the whole community who has a
more fixed and permanent interest in the arrangements
which give to paper money as much as possible the character
cf a metallic currency than the labouring portion of the
population.—(Hear, hear.) I hope that when you approach
tplienconsideration of this important subject, you will bear in
mind those great principles, and that you will not think
e in time of panic is necessarily an evil. That
Pressure, early and
law may he salutary—that pressure compelled by
remedy against complained of ,by some, but it is the only
increasedfor ;Pouring eo disasters, and ths only guarantee
it.
• uli.,..vehret.iibility of sour paper
NT% wa, hear.")
• (email
Who 1,„ tta the Right lion.
re.:cind declaration of
.dowis world, belOre
that eight, and 1
case of the corn-laws, that his former'"7. " in
t"r
sound and ought not to be adhered to principles were not
Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to ilre(Laughter.) The
Horner ; but surely the country was not newteebound opinions of Mr.
the very improper transactions of that day. It was neverby
contemplated when the first Bank Act was framed
that
restrictions were to last for ever; but since that period the
circumstances of the country had undergone a great change,
and the working and industrious classes, who had increased
taxation and a doubled national debt to pay, were sacrificed
to the money interests. Mr. Homer defore his death ap-
peared to have taken a very wise view of things, for he
said, " In no case attempt to set questions of currency
right without taking into account and fully appreciating
the new circumstances which have arisen, and the
vast and new obligations contracted since cash
payments
were abolished in 1817, will inflict great
misery on the people." He did not quarrel with the Right
Hon.-Baronet as to the measure of 1844, for he approved
of it at the time as a necessary part of the Bill of 1819.
And here he might be excused for reminding the House
that he had proposed the principle of that Bill four years
before the Right lion. Baronet proposed it. (Hear,
hear.) In the year 1840 he was examined before a Select
Committee of the House, and on being asked what descrip-
tion of measure lie would propose, he replied that there:was
ne difficulty in the matter, as the easy remedy would

be to compel the Bank of England to keep half its rir
ciliation by it in bullion.—(Hear, hear.) What did the Bill
of 1844 do but that? Upon that occasion he was asked by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether such a measure
would cause pressure in the London and country markets,
and he replied in the affirmative, as he believed the effect
of it would be to place the country in a position
of restriction. With regard to the Bill of 1819, he
remained of the same opinion, that it would inflict great
injustice until prices were reduced to the continental level.
The principle of the Bill of 1819 was not half carried out.
The price of land was scarcely touched, but the time was
coming when lie would have continued prices and continen-
tal importations, and when the landed interests would be
placed in the same position as they were in fifty years
ago. Let them stick to the Bills of 1819 and 1844, if they
wished—let them be carried out to the letter of the law—
but depend upon it they would blow themselves up, as
everything of unsound principle did.—( Hear, hear.) If a
just and proper alteration were made in the currency it
would confer great benefit upon the industry of the country,
as it would give an advantage in the foreign markets with
respect to nominal prices. The fact was, that taxes would
be taken off industry and placed on property. Converti-
bility was the great point by which a paper circulation was
regulated, and convertibility was nothing more than the be-
lief that we could do a thing which we could not do. It was
said that the Bill of 1844 had not aggravated the distress of
the last few years, but if it had not aggravated the distress,
how did it happen that its provisions were relaxed ? It
must have surely had some connexion with the distress, for
as soon as it was relaxed relief was afforded, and the distress
was comparatively banished.—( Hear, hear.) His opinion
was that the Bill of 1844 greatly exaggerated the distress,
because it made the Bank withhold accommodation, and it
induced persons who bad money to retain it in the hope of
getting a higher price for it. The fact was the money had
got into the wrong hands, and it would have remained there,
to the great detriment of public trade and commerce, if the
Act had not been relaxed and the money released.—(Hear.)
It was distressing to have a law which required touching
every now and then to make it act properly, and it was dis-
graceful to the country and the Government. The country,
however, entertained the opinion that the Government had
acted very indiscreetly in interfering with a law of which
they evidently knew so very little. That interference had
caused him considerable regret, as he was sure it would en-
tail much misery on the country.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME confessed that the explanation of the Right
Hon. Baronet was exceedingly unintelligible. The motion
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stamford did
not require any allusion to the Act of 1819. The statement
of his Right Hon. Friend was quite clear, and the question
the House had to consider was, whether the Committee had
arrived at a correct conclusion. Twenty witnesses had given
evidence against the Acts of 1819 and 1844, and
ten of the number were for modifying those Acts. He
maintained that the Select Committee of the House of Com-
mons had arrived at a verdict altogether irreconcilable with
the evidence.—(Hear, hear.) The report of the Lords'
Committee, =the contrary, he believed tote a fair and honest
one, and his only objection to it was, that its recommenda-
tions were not sufficiently intelligible. The principle of the
Right Honourable Gentleman's Bill of 1844 bad not worked
well, neither could it be expected to do so, when the whole
commercial affairs of this kingdom were to be left to the
discretion of a single man. Why, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer might be a fool—(" Hear, hear," and laugh-
ter)—and the First Lord of the Treasury might be a
fool—(" Hear, bear," and laughter)—and was it to be
endured that the property of millions of persons was to
be jeopardised by the ignorance or prejudice of one or two
men.—(Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that great credit
was due to the Right Honourable Gentleman the Member
for Stamford, who had brought forward this measure,
and he hoped the fact would go forth to the country. He
considered this a question of the greatest importance. Let
them look at its effects in Scotland. Never was there such
a piece of unnecessary legislation as this with regard to their
country. There had been no loss during the last fifty or
sixty years ; the people were content ; there was not one pe-
tition for change. No man could read the evidence taken
with respect to Scotland without seeing the evils produced
by this law.—(Hear.) A great deal of the evil arose from
the erroneous opinion held by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
Robert Peel) and the Chancellor of the Exchequer (the lat-
ter of whom had been talking to-night of unlimited circula-
tion, limited currency, and all sorts of exploded ideas),
that country bankers could issue as much as they
liked, and deluge the country with paper. That
notion was utterly untrue, He denied that there had been
any material pressure in the agricultural districts, or in
Scotland and Ireland ; but it was quite obvious that the Bill
of 1844 prevented any assistance being given by them to the
metropolis. He would not say that Bill caused the distress,
but it infinitely augmented it, the people being afraid to part
with their money lest they should not get more. He agreed
with the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Her-
ries) that it was right that the attention of the House should
be called to it as early as possible next session. He did not
however, wish to bind the House, as nobody could know
what might take place in the course of six months, but the
Bill of 1844 must be reconsidered, and he believed that the
Right Hon. Baronet would eventually be of that opinion.
Mr. HERRIES was willing to withdraw 'his motion, after
what had been stated in this debate, and particularly by the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), from which it was clear
the House could not allow this subject to remain long with-
out making an attempt to come to the merits of the subject.
That he thought was the opinion of a majority of the House,
and he was aware that the 22d of August was not the time to
propose to go into the whole merits of the question. The
Right Hon. Baronet had said that in the next session •he
should be prepared to maintain the Act of 1844 in all its in-
tegrity; and he (Mr. Herries) also would pledge himself to
attempt to obtain an alteration in an Act which has brought
all the evils from which we have been suffering on the coun-
try, and fulfilled the worst expectations of unfortunate re-
sults which its opponents entertained.—(Hear, hear.) The
relaxation of the Government was a condemnation of
the Bill itself, as a means of relieving the pressure of panic.
But what created the panic?—that was the question.
Why, the apprehensions created by the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
The evidence was full of it. Mr. Gurney had stated that in
his opinion if the Bill of 1844 had not passed—if there had
been no division of the departments of the Bank, the alarm
of 1847 would not have occurred, and the pressure would
have passed over without difficulty. The Bill, then, not only
aggravated the distress when it came, but it caused the panic.
—(Cheers.) He condemned the report as an insiduous one,
the concluding paragraph suggesting the idea that it was
founded on the evidence. But he could show that it was not
so founded—that it was contrary to the evidence—and that
was his motive for bringing forward the question. The Go-
vernment had met it by moving the previous question—they
did not venture to deny that the sub;ect must be recon-
sidered early nest session. That being the case his views in
proposing the motion were fully answered ; and if no one
more competent took up the subjE ct, he intended at an early
period next session to draw the attention of the House to a
matter of such vital importance.—(Cheers.)
The motion was then negatived without a division.
CHARITABLE LEGACIES.
The Legacies to Charitable Institutions Bill, which stood
for a second reading, was postponed until next session by
Mr. Raphael, who h!id introduced the measure.

CONTAGION AMONG SHEEP.
The Sheep, &c., Contagious Disorders Prevention Bill was
read a third time and passed.
IRISH COURT OF CHANCERY.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE moved the second reading of the
Taxing Masters Court of Chancery (Ireland) Bill. There
were at the present time 1,764 bills of costs to be taxed in
arrears, and the object of the Bill was, to increase the effi-
ciency of that department. There was at present one Master
with a salary of 1,0004 and one assistant with a salary of
400/. a year. It was proposed in the Bill to have three
Masters, one at 1,0004 and two others at 800/., involving
an increased expenditure of 1,2001. a year, which would be
money well spent in increasing the efficiency of that Court.
Mr. GOULBURN opposed the Bill and called attention
to the disposition there was in Ireland to increase legal
offices. If " arrears" were to constitute a sufficient reason
for increased offices, reasons would be as plentiful as bladk-
berries. He denied, however, that there ought to be any
arrears. There were formerly two Taxing Masters,: and it
was found that they never woiked more than three hours
a day, and one of the Masters, Mr. Clancy, had said more
than that would kill any body with hard work. Upon that
one officer had been abolished, and the work was not really
too much.
Mr. NAPIER supported the Bill. If there was no change
in the present system it would be practically a denial of
justice.
An Hoyt. thENTLEMAN here moved that the House be
counted, and
Only thirty Members being present the House adjourned
at Five Minutes to Two o'Clock.

The half-yearly meeting of this company RAILWAY INTELLIGENCE.
SOUTH-EASTERN.
[The following reports have been omitted for want of room.]
oni:l'Gbl i.ee
ghCei :rit occasionedft tf n
exertionsx siani dtbhye that,ssee severe
veireee owingoillf
Bridge House Hotel, London-bridge, Thursday, Mr. T.
was held at the
ge, on
brought
M. Pritchard, the deputy chairman, presiding.
the share-
holders would join with him in wishing that gentleman a
speeedy recovery, that he might again fill the chair which he
(Mr. Pritchard) then occupfed.—(Cheers.) The honourable
gentleman then called upon illness,
the
:es,e
company'
principallyp aabnsy e,n c e o f Mr.
Mr. HICRBEAT (the Secretary) to read the notice con-
vening the meeting, and the following report:—
making the expenditure on revenue
Iw4ss . an
100.
Tim accounts of the South Eastern Railway, for the half-
during that period,amount to
ear eeneredipnageytheh3elvset ofemJueleyn,tleBd4B, , shOw that the receipts of
half-
year
219,3651. ss. tid.; and that the working expenses have been
67,1021. I Is. sd. ; the rent of the Greenwich Railway, and of
the Whitstable Railway, 21,5721. 108. ; the rates and Govern -
ment duty, 17,9701. 6s. ;
account, 106,645/. 7s. sd. ' '
The balance carried to account of profit and Loss is
expended on construe-
hafosrbemenortgage bonds and loan
tlL2,d7ile9p/e.
eleBl s,
of ltdh.e; 'parnedpritehtearst aecfcloouBn,tB3s6hLo
On reference to the statement of receipts and expendi-
ture on capital account duringlhe half-year, the proprietors
of the North Kent line.
will observe, that the sum of 713,146/. 13s. 4d., has been
received on account of calls; and during the same period
tthieensuemeceoefn4ts, 7e,n14d1/1.7547511101..
gthe state of the company's
notes paid off.
It will be in the recollection of the proprietors, that the
On SO large a sum of
directors, in their last report, stated their unwillingness to
to the
urge forward the works of great speed, being only too sen-
sible of the severity of calls ; this will, in some measure, ac-
courrnhtefodrirtelicetedre,elayeninrtehveieolpveinngin
4 shares '
represent
of the
aisffpari
unproductiveresi ,u
dciocni considering
capital
r tinh ge i tnl
as
interests
ettshotespNa ye .
3 and interest
No.
company, have resolved on
fini--iling the works with as much rapidity :
,--..y as 18 consistent
A it h reOIIOIIIV :Ind durability.
proprietors that
twli:e:;%,11'1:1:11.1:3,1 Ni:erteeiretitiisleonu ampletit:
141111,11 a. leide., ,itat.n:s, i att
171:. i:pl;e t i
mood,u ig
,pt thy, hole of tii e
,teru Railway Cow
otitfethNisorctohmlipaenn
uwot Railway Company, alluded to 1I 1 the last report, ha,
oreave in consequence
been sealed by both companies, and
and South Coast
necessary • usually
directors
onfpre-
pareSoutht he
intro-
duced into the accounts are now excluded.l
ridge station. The
Part
to the carryin,
given
Railwayl n consequenceftlnroaftoi
leraertghteeo adtcoihcvfeei
sstsilioif,oenonf inodefoaoftrnht,creao
j_3Lintilreo
.pi
lig,
de;to
oeooittinoof
rdp..naeabir:
Railway, the directors have considered:li
The directors feel
lwtailvleonshaolwl
occasions
ewo
confident necessary
lflodfe ee ntahtti
staahlatareetrreaanuntoligo
arrangement
jet reneectqxt
iueooiennree
exceeding
the
oeigln
p4batoeh:
London, Brighton, and South Coast Railwayy;obuurtd,iroenettohres
contrary, expect from them the same co-operation as they
spirit to carry
out any measures of economy they may contemplate.
ansiotnhse
The directors have received an intimation from the' en-
gineer-in-chief of the Great Northern Railway of France,
that the 26th inst. would probably be fixed for the opening
erleeceetntthenmeg7etiatthioen
e;
aamned
of that line, and, in consequence of this intimation, your
directors lost no time in completing an arrangement with the
South-Eastern and Continental Steam Packet Company, to
place steam-ships on tke station between Dover and Calais
From the opening of the Great Northern Railway of France
great advantages are expected; as from an understanding
year directors came to at Paris with the directors of that line,