The Sun.
London, England, 1833-04-02 00:00:00

tan's of Ireland, if this Dill passed, was rather remarkable.
They had certainly hesrd the same threat from other quar-
ters ; but that the intimation should have proceeded fratn
the,Hons and*Learned Gentleman did much surprise him.
He could scarcely have expected to hear that the Orange-
men of Ireland were about to throw themselves into the
arms of those who had hitherto been their bitterest oppo-
nents, and become ac ive agitators for the repeal of the
Union between England and Ireland. He was sure there
was no fear of the Protestants believing that it would be
their interest to dissolve the Union between the two coun-
tries, in order to have sitting in Dublin a Parliament of
Catholics, or nearly so (for such, certainly, would be a
Parliament returned by a population, four-fifths of which
were Catholics), and whose first act would most probably
be the total abolition of the Protestant religion.—(Loud
cheers.) He should give his humble support to the reso-
lutions proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, not alone be-
cause they were beneficial to the interests of the inhabitants
of Ireland, but because he believed they would promote the
interests of the clergy themselves.—( Hear.)
Sir J. HAMMER felt it his duty, however reluctantly,
to oppose the measure. He could not but regard the Bill
as a violation of the coronation oath of the King--(Hear)
--as a violation of the Act of Union—( Hear, hear)—and
as a gross violation of the most sacred rights of property.—
(Hsar, bear.) He wanted words to express the light in
which he regarded this Bill, and he rose to give it all the
opposition which was in the power of so young and un-
known a Member. He should like to know on what
principle the Noble Lord would justify the imposition of
this graduated tax. When lie heard the Noble Lord de-
clare a few nights hack, that there could not be a more
dangerous principle than that of a graduated property tax
—(Hear, hear)—that it would lead to the equalization of
all property—be did not know how the Noble Lord would
justify this proposition, except by arguments which he
knew he should disagree with before he heard them.—
(Loud laughter.) He acknowledged the necessity of
taking some steps for the security of the Established
Church in Ireland, but to a Bill like this he could never
agree. He looked forward with dread to the consequences.
He nould not Bey that it would lead to a state of society
such as that which prevailed when Archbishop Sharpe
was murdered—(oh, oh)—but it would lead to such a
state of rancorous feeling as could not but grieve every
man who wished well to his country.
Mr. SHELL said that he was the worst enemy of the
Union who relied on it in sustainment of the establishment,
and he was the worst enemy of the English who associated
it with the Irish Church. It was a junction of the fresh
and living with the decomposed and dead, which did not
vivify the one, but contaminated and imparted mortality to
the other. The Member for the University of Dublin had
used some menacing ihtimations. He had threatened the
Government with the anger of the Irish Protestants, and
hinted that they might throw their allegiance off. Surely
the Hon. Gentleman, the Representative of the stifiordina-
tion and peaceful hahitsof a learned end tranquil body, did
not mean to say that Protestant loyalty was the result
of Protestant monopoly—that the devotedness to
England of that respectable body was of a mercenary
character, and that their attachment to their Sove-
reign was derived from the meanest of all motives,
and that was little else than the sordid product of
pecuniary calculation. He (Mr. Shed) had given notice
of an amendment involving the great question of the
right of the state to legislate for the church; but another
gentleman having given a similar notice before him, he
thought it doe to courtesy to give tray to him. The mea-
sures of the Government, besides, rested on the right of
appropriation, and the principle was implied. He should
apply himself to that question. It was plain to him that
the property of a corporation rested on a title as distinct
from that of an individual as the nature of an individual
was distinct from a corporation, which was the mere
creature of the low, and owed its entire existence to it.
Passing from theory to authority, the highest was to be
found in favour of church reform. Paley lays it down
that the chances being equal that the religion of the
majority is as good as that of the magistrate, the magis-
trate ought to consult the religion of the peop'e, and not
his two. Warburton says, that the church exists only
for the benefit of the state. " Hence," he says, "in this
alliance may be seen why the episcopal is the established
church of England and the Presbyterian in Scotland, and
the equity of the conversion. Hence the duration of the
alliance. When the church loses its superiority of extent
the alliance becomes void ; the united church being no
longer able to perform its part of the convention, the state
becomes disengaged, and a new alliance is of course con-
tracted with the now prevailing church." He expresses
himself still more strongly in a note to Clarendon's " Re-
hellion," where, observing on the demand of the Par-
liatnent for the alienation of church 1 ends, he says
that " the state may resume what the state ori-
ginally gave." But what has been the practice of all
Europe? Peter the Great seized all the property-of the
Greek church, and its functionaries are now paid from
the treasury. The Emperor Joseph seized all the church
property in his dominions. In Prussia, and all the Ger-
man States, the clergy were paid out of the public coffers.
Arthur Young, in his " Travels through Italy" says the
tithes have been abolished in Tuscany, the estates of the
priests, with a slight land-tax, have been found adequate
to all the purposes of religion, and almost univenally
through the Iteli to States, the property of the church is
considered as the properly of the State. In Adam Smith's
chapter "on the Sovereign," in his " Wealth of Nations,"
he oars " In several Pi oteatant countries, particularly the
Protestant cantons of Swim 'rland, the revenue which
anciently belonged to the Roman Catholic church—the
tithes and church land—has teen found a fund sufficient,
not only to afford competent salaries to the established
clergy, but to defray, with little or no addition, all the
other expenses of the state. The Magistrates of the
powerful canton of Berne, in particular, have accumu-
lated, out of the savings of this fund, a very large fund,
supposed to amount to several millions.—( Hear, hear.)
Here was a series of strong examples amounting to autho-
rity. Was all this spoliation ? Had these changes been
followed by the invasion of private property ? Had convul-
sions ensued ? Those who predict would do well to leek back.
The French revolution would probably be referred .to.
But what took place before it? The property of the Knights
Templar had been seized. It was a constant custom to
apply the revenues of bishoprics to state purposes. This
was not spoliation before—was it after the revolution ? It
was remarkable that Abbe Maury, in resisting the seizure
of the French church property, hail relied upon it that it
wac the property of the poor. But coma at England.
He should commence with a very recent example. The
revenue of the church of Durham had lately been applied
to the establishment of a University.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Was this an ecclesiastical purpose? Had math,- metica
any thing to do with mysteries, algebra with theology,
ebymistry with the church establishment? Alchymy had
Indeed " converso in praium Deo." This was a strong
case. The consent of the prebends was nothing. They
could not consent and bar their successors, and plunder
Piot corporation, if the principles of churchmen were well
founded. But go back to the fountain hi-ad of English
legislation. Edward I. determined to tax the clergy.
Pope Bonifice issued a bull, setting forth strong conser-
vative doctrines—the. entire argument on spoliat on may
be found in this. famous document. The British King
being put by excommunication out of the pale of the
eborch, put the clergy out of the pale of the law. The
Latter gave way, and paidthe tax. In Rymer's " Fmtlera"
will be found the forma recognition of Bishops in the
time of Edward the Second, that the temporalities of
the see came from and belonged to the Crown. In the
Feign of Edward 111. Wickliffe appeared. You account
him the precursor of the Reformation, and behold in his
mind the dawn of that light that afterwards grew to the
full splendour of day. He translated the Bible, and
Called upon the clergy to obey its precepts. He insisted on
the doctrine which the Irish Catholics now maintain—
that the church was under the control of the Legislature,
and its possessions might lie appropriated. That charge
it set forth in the 9th article that was exhibited against
him. In the 15th of Richard 11. was passed the statute
providing that a certain portion of the tithes should be
given out of impropriate benefices to the poor. This
istetute was renewed in the 4th of Henry IV. In the
sixth year of his reign the Commons addressed the King,
and entreated him to-seize a part of -the church revenues.
'The Archbishop of Canterbury was present when the
,address was presented, and, on his observing that the
Piergy spent their days and nightsin praying for the weal
of the state, the Speaker eaid,,with a smile, "He feared
that his Grace's prayers would make but a slender sup-
ly."-(A laugh.) Come to the Reformation. The
leign of Henry VIII. is too notorious to to quire com-
ment; but in the succeeding reign the bishopric of Dur-
ham was aeieed by the Crown, and the Act confiscating
the lands belonging to charities was passed. In the reign
of 113:y, the right of the Legislature to seize church
prop rty was recognised, and the titles of the pur-
chasers of the monastic estates were confirmed. Every
one knew that E.iz theth had possessed herself of the re.
venues of several bishoprics ; but observe the effect of the
first statute of her reign. The whale Cathobo-hierarchy
were ejected, with the exception of the,Biahop of Llandaff,
who was called " the calamity of his See." There was a
direct transfer of the property of one church to that of
another church, riot at lib, but against the consent of the
incumbents; for they Were all stripped of their authority,
of their means of life, and thrown on the world. James 1.
possessed himself, o ith one grasp, of- the entire tithes of
Scotland. He should turn to the church history of that