The Sun.
London, England, 1848-05-24 00:00:00

WALSALL ELECTION PETITION.

The SPEAKER informed the House that he had re-
ceived notice that it was not the intention of the peti-
tioners in the case to proceed with the petition against
the return for the borough of Walsall.
PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.

Mr. lIUME said that he was very sorry that at that
late hour he could not proceed with the motion of which
he had given notice.—(Cries of "Go on, go on.") It
was then past eleven o'clock.—(Go on.) Hon. Members
who cried " Go on" would allow him to judge what he
thought best to do. He knew the duty he had under-
taken, and that it would be impossible for him at that
hour to state what he thought ought to be stated with re-
spect to so important a question.—(hear.) And to leave
the matter in doubt would be the worst of all courses.—
(Hear, hear.) Ile had been waiting the whole evening
in order to bring the question forward, and no person
was more disappointed than he was at not being able to
do so. He found that the first open day would be the
20th of June.—(Hear, hear, and laughter from the
opposition benches.) lie would fix the motion for i.hat
day, and he hoped he would then meet with no impedi-
ment.—(Laughter).

Mr. F. O'CONNOR moved the adjournment of the
House, in order that there should be a motion before the
House on which he could speak. He agreed with the
lion. Member for Montrose that he should be allowed
to speak for himself, but he hoped that in future he
would not undertake to speak for the country.—(Cheers
from the Opposition.) On a former occasion he had
come from a great distance to speak on the motion. He
had deceived him (Mr. O'Connor', a first time, but it
would be his own fault if the Hon. Member for Montrose
deceived him a second time.—(Laughter.) The Hun.
Member for Oxford was quite right in saying that the
subject of the Hon. Gentleman's motion was but " a tub
to the whale." It was an important subject, however ;
but it could have been brought on that night, and the
debate adjourned. The Hon. Member for Montrose
asked the working classes to fraternize with the middle
classes, and he had come to the conclusion—but with
great violence to his feelings—(Laughter)—to abate a
great portion of the principles he had always strenuously
advocated, and which he would always continue to advo-
cate. He had not been well treated, for were it not for
the assurance of the Hon. Member that he would bring
the subject forward on the first opportunity, he (Mr.
O'Connor) would bring on his motion. After the middle
classes making an appeal to the working classes for
union, and atter having been before deluded by the
middle classes, he asked the Hon. Member for Montrose
whether he thought it likely that he for one, or that the
working classes, would confide in hihn?—(Cheers from
the Opposition.) lie told the Hon. Gentleman, and
those with whom he acted, that they must make a de-
termined stand. They had joggled the people for the
last month, and now they were going to postpone the
question for another month, whereas he might have
brought it forward that night, arid the debate would bo
adjourned. He was not surprised that Hon. Gentlemen
opposite should think they obtained a great triumph, and
that they should smile and treat with derision the posi-
ti,,n in which the Hon. Member had placed his consti-
tuents.—(Laughter.) Ho would not be a party to such
"a delusion, mockery, and snare."—(Hear hear, from
the Opposition.) He would not be a party to counselling
the working classes to place confidence in men who he
believed in his soul and conscience only intended to use
them for their own purposes.—(Loud Opposition cheers.)
lie believed that the country would not be satisfied ut
the postponement of the motion, and he agreed with the
lion. Member for Oxford that it was only " a tub to the
whale."—( Laughter.).

Mr. COBDEN—I-think there can be but one opinion
in the House and in the mind of every honest and intelli-
gent man in the country, that my Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for Montrose is blameless for the delay which has
taken place.—(Hear, hear.) I think no reasonable man
will suppose that any man, having the conduct of so im-
portant a question, ought to bring it forward at eleven
o'clock at night.—(Hear.) I object to so important a
question being discussed at that hour, and if it was
brought on at five o'clock I question if a whole evening
would suffice for its proper discussion.—(Hear, hear.)
The lion. Gentleman has undertaken to give advice, not
in very courteous or complimentary language, to my
Hun. Friend.—(Hear.) It I might venture to give ad-
vice to my lion. Friend, I advise him that in the conduct
of this important question he will nit follow the advice,
and still less the example of the Hon. Gentlemen—
(Cheers)—who calls himself the leader of the working
classes, and who for nine years has been advocating the
people's charter.
Mr. O'CONNOR—Fifteen years.
Mr. COBDEN—I believe the lion. Gentleman him-
self stated the other day, at the Convention, that after
his fifteen years of leadership, he had but one man in
the House on whom he could depend, in his own absence,
to advocate the principles of the charter.—(Name,
name.) I believe one Member was mentioned, but Ido
not know who he was.—(Laughter.) I think that one
fact issuificient to warn my Hen. Friend how he follows
the track of the lion. Member for Nottingham; and if
aeything can open the eyes of the working classes of
this country to a just sense of the value of the leader-
ship of the Hon. Member, it is the position in which
their cause has been placed in this House, and in the
country, by the Hon. Gentleman, after his fifteen years
of leadership. Sir, I have had a loeg experience of the
Hon. Gentleman, and he will net accuse rue of any per-
sonal hostility towards him, for certainly no man has
lavished so many compliments on me as the Hon.
Member for Nottingham; and, with my experience of
his conduct out of this House, by contriving to array
the working classes against every man who was
disposed to assist them in carrying forward their
' objects, if they wished them to succeed—l say the Hon.
Member has done more to retard the political pro-
gress of the working classes than any public man who
ever lived in this country.—(Hear, hear.) I speak after
a long experience of the lion. Gentleman; and en person
has a better right to speak on this subject than I. For
seven years I had directed against me the relentless hos-
tility of the lion. Gentleman while advocating what I
believed then, and what I believe still to be, the cause of
the working classes—l mean the abolition of the tax on
food.—(liear, hear.) Tout lion. Gentleman did all he
could to array the working classes against me on that
subject, and I had more hostility to encounter from him
and his party than I had from the Duke of Buckingham
and all his followers.—(lelear, hear.) What was the
result? I never fraternized with the Hon. Gentleman
or his myrmidons—l never fraternized or succumbed to
them fur a moment.—(Hear, hear.) I always treated
him as the leader of a small, insignificant, and powerless
party. I never identified him with the mass of the
working classes of' the country.—(Hear.) I treated him
then, as I treat him now, nut as the leader of the working
classes of the country, but at the leader of an organized
faction of the smallest portion of the community.—(Hear.)
I never failed to beat him and his followers in public
assemblies in every county in the kingdom.—(Hear,
hear.) I speak for myself, and only for myself; but in
any agitation which I enter upon for the political fran-
chises of the working classes, as I never have, I never
will, fraternize with the Hon. Gentleman or his organized
followers; and, as I said before a hundred times, I say
again, that I set them a; defiance now.—(hear, hear.)
I exhort my Hon. Friend not to be deluded by anything
that falls from the lion. Gentleman as to his power with
the working classes of the country. As he was weak
before, he is powerless now; and as to his authority
with them, it is equally unimportant and uniefluential
with respect to any political question.—(Hear, hear.)
My lien. Friend may feel assured, notwithstanding
the unwarrantable and ferocious attack of the lion.
Gentleman, that the people of this country would not
withdraw that confidence which the great mass of the
nation had in him.—(Loud cheers.)

Mr. O'CONNOR—When the Hon. Member says that
he beat me at every public meeting, I cm only say
that I never had the pleasure of meeting him but once.
Mr. COBDEN—I said the lion. Gentleman or his
followers.

Mr. 11. BERKELEY postponed his motion on the
subject of vote by ballot to the 20th of June.

Mr. O'CONNOR said he would withdraw his motion
for an adjournment.—(No, no.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—The Hon. Gentleman only
moved the adjournment for the purpose of addressing
the House. I hope the House will allow the other
business on the paper to be disposed of. I cannot see
that there is any rThjection, or anything unusual, in the
Hon. Member for .Montrose postponing his motion till a
future opportunity, as he was nut able to bring it on to-
night.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the other ques-
tion which the Hon. Gentlemen raised between them-
selves, the Hon. Member for Nottingham saying that
the working classes had no confidence in the motion of
the Hon. Member for Montrose, and the Hon. Member
for the West Riding saying that no confidence ought to
be placed in the lion. Memuer for Nottingham—
(Laughter)—without making any observation on this
question of personal confidence, I must say that my
belief is that the middle and working classes of the
country neither wish for the one great reform nor the
other—(Cheers)—that they are neither anxious for the
People's Charter, nor for this great plan of reform which
comes near the Charter, as proposed by the Hon.
Member for Montrose.—(Hear, hear.) I believe they
wish neither one nor the other, and that they see their
true interest is that there should be a gradual progress
of reform, and that this House should give its attention
to the questions before us, and that in the peace arid
quiet of the country lies their true interest.—(Loud
Ministerial and Opposition cheers.)
The motion for the adjournment was then withdrawn.
POOR-LAW (IRELAND).
Mr. FRENCH, in moving for a Select Committee
inquire into and report on the statements contained
which
to
wains
the petition from the county of RoscommAoina,
presented on the 15th day of this instant
working of the Irish poor-law, comrlained thaty as to the
the poor-
law system was introduced into Ireland after it bad been
pronounced unsuitable to that country
inflicted
on Irelandentry on the
highest authority. It was
on the unfounded statements and mistaken cal-
culations of Mr. Nichols, and the result is,
that it entailed the greatest misery on the people.
liedetain
continuing;
contended that they were not justified in tinui
the Irish poor-law. But he should not their at
that late hour, he should content liimself with moving
that a Select Geninittee be appointed to inquireinto
and report on the sttaetements contained in the Roscoin-
mon petition, as to the working of the Irish poor-law.
Sir G. GREY regretted that this motion had not
been postponed, for it was impossible that duo attention
could at that hour be given to the subject. For his own
pzrt, he could not advise the House to agree to the
motion. Witnesses for a Committee on the poor-law
could not, without inconvenience, be brought over at
present, from Ireland; and with respect to the particular
petition to which the Hon. Member referred no inquiry
could be instituted respecting it which did not assume
the form of an investigation on the general question.
Looking forward to the time when a really useful in-
quiry might b.:, instituted, he trusted the House would
negative this motion, it it were insisted on, particularly
as the British Association was now spending 10,000/. a
week in Ireland, and making the greatest exertions to
alleviate the misery of the people--(Hear.)

Colonel CONOLLY did not go the length of deny
the subversion of the Irish Poor-law ; but thought
required material amendment. Properly carried ou
he had no doubt that law would prove a decided bless-
ing, but of course it could not be expected to he brough t
to maturity in an hour. Much of its administration,
however, was very arbitrarily and despotically managed.
Mr. Tvvisleton's name was much objected to, and he was
bound to say that he did not think it was such as to en-
sure confidence or invite cc-operation.
Mr. R. M. FOX said that Mr. Twisleton was an ex-
tremely urbane and sensible person.
Sir D. NORREYS censured the arbitrary manner in
which no fewer than 40 boards of guardians in Ireland
had been dismissed.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL hoped the Hon. Gentleman
would withdraw his motion for the present. There wss
much inquiry needed on the subject before it could be
judiciously brought forward.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE assured the House that the
dissolution of boards of guardians in Ireland was
tte no
matter of taste with the Commission, but simply a mar
of necessity. The Commission had every desire to con-
duct their administration without any approach to arbi-
trary- rules.
Colonel DUNNE thought that a searching inquiry
into the working of the poor•law in Ireland was abso-
lutely essential to the well-being and tranquillity of that
country. He condemned the summary dismissal of the
board of guardians as quite unjustified by the conduct of
the majority of the dissolved boards.
Mr. P. S. BUTLER concurred in the necessity for an
inquiry into the poor-law in Ireland; the present admi-
nistration of which excited much dissatisfaction there.
Mr. FRENCH withdrew his motion.
NATIONAL LAND COMMITTEE.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR moved for a Select Committee to
inquire into the National Land Company and its
prospects.
ROMAN CATHOLIC JURORS (IRELAND).
Mr. KEOGH, in moving for the returns of which lie
had given notice, begged to premise that he was act uaten
en
by no sympathy for the gentlemen who had lately be
put on their trials for sedition in Dublin. He thong
hl
an insult had been offered to the Roman Catholics of
Ireland, and they thought so themselves, by their excll
sion from the jury panels. The list of jurors for the
city of Dublin consisted of 600. Of these 48 were selected
to form the panel, and this number was reduced by the
Crown striking off 12 and the traverser striking off 12,..
The Crown had, at the late trial of Mr. Meagher.
off 11 out of 12 Roman Catholics who were left on the
were 1°
revised jury list. Amongst the gentlemen who
struck off as Roman Catholics were some of the m°„st
respectable inhabitants of Dublin. He would sPilcr'ele
particularly Messrs. Campbell and Mr. Power. of'.i""
firmer highly creditable merchants, the latter a Man
fortune. Now what he desired to ask the lion. Baronet
struce
opposite was, what were the grounds upon which I ,
Crown lawyers in Dublin had struck these gentlelmerlini.
names off the jury panel ? How did the G/ei.b.
went think such an act could be performed I°,o
out causing great exasperation in the minds of
Roman Catholics of Ireland? He was entitled to ad'et
upen whose authority this was done? Was it by °I. 1,
of the Secretary for Ireland, or of the Attorney- Geaere _
himself a Roman Catholic? or was it by order of the
n
Noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury, who had Pe
a former occasion in that House denounced the Preeettibea
pnrsued by the Government of dealing unfairly wit'itbe
jury list in the case of Mr. O'Connell? He 'III°. syn
told that the thing was done by
solicitor for Ireland. But he would not believe that t!lii:
was the case. Not only was the jury panel so dealt .w‘lir.
in the case of Mr. Meagher, but also in that of Mrt
Mr. Kemmis, the Cro.
S. O'Brien. There could be no confidence in the sotaere
nistration of the law in Ireland whilst such practices
allowed. The Governmeat was without an excuse forelela
b
conduct on the occasion in question. There bad tee
some great blunders committed in Ireland during go
late trials. He believed that if the Roman Catb°se
who had been struck off had been left on, and
less
who had been left on the panel had been struck of "ra,
result would have been to have rendered the G°vee-eia
ment certain of a verdict. The only one of the 134.40
Catholics left on the jury was a person of no notel'aye
had been chairman of a repeal meeting only fours eis-
before. He went about boasting, after the jury w sect
charred, what he had done. But the most curllag
was that he was left on the list by a mistake; for 13; he
vestry-clerk of St. Mark's Church it was conclude rata
was a Protestant, whereas he was a staunch I° for,
Catholic.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He had broughtieet
ward this question, in order that Government Ittoe
have some opportunityexplaining
of a eirctn'etjong9l
which was calculated to cause much discontent Ow
the Roman Catholics of Ireland. t ugh!
Mr. C. ANS I'EY seconded the motion. ll° -Th,.°Jetie
that the conduct of her Majesty's law officers in -",.-were
had been one tissue of error, and that Government
bound to take prompt steps for a speedy reformat° and
Lord J. J. RUSSELL regretted that the II until
Learned Member had not postponed his raoll°nel'aufb
therel had been time to receive information from ,irevefe'
1e had not certainly expected that the present
ment would have been exposed to a charge of PO° Ile
on the ground of excluding Catholics from juries', )bat
entertained then, as he had formerly, the oPini°,,,tvela
the exclusion of Roman Catholics from juries as I'Rciiage""
an extremely wrong and unjustifiable Priiccerores°
(Hear, hear.) He would remind the House that •eeci
t reeel es
Catholics had under the present Governmen- tots, -1
as much favour in public appointments as prole
might be evidenced by the fact of the AttoreeP, ieeol",
and the Under-Secretary for Ireland being b°l,ae beer('
bers of that persuasion.—(Hear.) The moment ed°l3l
that prosecutions for sedition had been deterrable bee'
ho had written to his Noble Friend at et tno
ire'
of the Irish Government, expressing his hope tile jade
terference should take place with regard to cleittoe
For his part he would much rather see men s&eer9'i
than that any such conduct should take place---,cl J.
His Noble Friend had, in reply to hi ea (I),_°r„ he w,j"
sell), expressed a similar opinion; and %vie" Nclueectit
informed that a Roman Catholic had been °_,,ere
from the jury without any reason arising frog
eu,'s ear
political conduct, his Noble Friend expressed i'' er
e been or
prise, and stated, that if such conduct had ledge
wll
approbation. it had been entirely without h
sis Iwo,. be cou(Cheers.) Having said o touch
not go fui Cher into details until he had real' Os
ver. et
con fete information. Ile believed, how
,Geaer
neither the Lord-Lieutenant nor the Attorney
dof re IV
had any wish to exclude a juror on the groun
et•
or that the jury should be exclusively Prot that
thstee
facts proved that to have been the case, sevlntlleet the
person had been left on who had held out_aeO
0,5 a nu
majority of the jury, considering that atereo,ls,..
bound by his oath to act contrary to the
regard ;rt
of the faction to which he belonged. With
attar Pa o
the Hon. and Learned Member's motion, the 0 ,a 3 at
of it could not be conceded, seeing that ther
'nu my
'
' legal record of the religion of jurors, bot tOouo r
there could be no possible objection. Ile !h_d hirthe
say iu conclusion that the moment he reeelr
satinfee;
information he would lay it on the table for tntewbete/.r
Lion of the House. Ile could only repeat tha iijae thel.r
example might be set by others of claws; to tbeio
obligations or making their duty subservont brvsoae tt
politics, the Government should be the 10,1,fecie Alec,
follow such an example.—(Hear, hear.) the it,l_9;
should be merely to get respectable persona e tee
and then to leave the administration of justi(ecbeers.)o.
hands without respect to religion or part Y.--t hie o°o,
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL regretted th further 1 e
and Learned Friend had not waited for
matter cat%
formation. His opinion was that when the
math
so tau'o,
to be investigated the blundering which th° ge n
spoken of, would be found to have rested wi3O Cru
tloman
who had been so much eulogised,. !our feel
Solicitor, and not with the Attorney-Genrni_hiiiiy of t7O
Mr. REYNOLDS vindicated the respects% pan
ei
Roman Catholics who had been struck off the
aeneralt
the case of Mr. S. O'Brien.
. • that pee
Sir GEORGE GREY defended the .A.ttorneL7 ofece!.
and stated that at the special commission of po
had not challenged a single juror on the score
°
or religion. ONS°l4' tb
After a few words from Mr. F. O'C
Ti
bring °l4l.
motion was agreed to.
IRISH REPRODUCTION LOAN A jo
Mr. J. A. SMITH obtained leave to
1,.
to dissolve this association. Two e'cl°c
The II ouse adjourned at a Quarter to
-dela*
gr.
INSTITUTION OF CIVIL ENGINEER!.
stittaino,
the President of this distinguishedf
11.9„,_.esday
issued invitations for a conversozione
the 30th of May.
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On the 21st inst., at Fortes-terrace, •
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Oa the 22d inst., at Montague-square, tithe
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On the 19th inst., at Rvde, Isle of Wle e tog goo
Rev. I. Nichol), M.A., of Uske, in the county
of a daughter. by. the
MA URI ED- ; ekenbal: ant, to
Oa the 17th inst., at Trinity Church, he f the
Rev. T. Bevan, G. 11. Cox, Esq., of th Esq, °
Jane, second daughter of the late T. Mel° the Mg.
Island of St. Vincent. by caretinet
On the 18th inst., at St. Martin'e
W. K. Joyce, H. Bethune Esq., ei Brig ft porking"iestor,
third daughter of the Rev. J. Joyce, vicar 0,, westol_, tee
Dorichitoogs,,
On the 22d inst., at St. Margaret's Chn'iatigliter
B. W. Plumb, Esq., of New York, to EnlllY, "
late Gabriel Murphy, Esq., of Dublin.
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Esq., of Woolwich, aged 39. of
On the 19th in„t., at Gloucester-place
relict
Thomas, aged 57. ed 86,garybill'
On the 20th inst., at Camberwell, ag
relict of the 14t8
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3f3re3r's'et-hunTeocras,
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At Kenilworth, E. Simpson, Esq.,
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On the 19th inst., at Dover,i•Liee.
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L. Burnand, Esq., aged 75.
Ann Elizabeth
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No. 112, Strand, Printer, at tu
London: Printed and Published Sce 0111,..5e" 09103"/
Middlesez, Wednesday, May 24 18 8•
Strand, in the Precinct of th