The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-19 00:00:00

for the purpose of enforcing the paymenrof tithes in I
Ireland."
Lord ALTHORP said it would be unnecessary for the
Hon. Member to propose such an amendment, because!
his Majesty's Ministers had in contemplation that which,
while it would reserve the rights of the clergy, and secure
to them what fairly belonged to faem, would relieve the
G .vernment'of Ireland from the necessity of enforcing
the measure passed during lest session for the commuta-
tion of tithes. He hoped that the proposition was one
which would secure to the clergy their just riebta, and
he was sure it would save the people from any unneces-
sary pros. cation for arrears which. might he due by them.
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped that the Noble Lord would,
then, consent to the suspension of the enforcement of the
payment of tithes by means of tLe police for the present.
Collisions were happening frequently between the peep!,
and the police. Even that very day he had got an account
of an unfortunate transaction which had happened in the
county of Cork. The miserable people bed attacked
party of police who were empl eyed to levy tithe*, anti the
police found it necessary to fire, when three or four of the
penple were killed. That was in a parish were he knew
that there were not thirty Protestants. He hoped that
tie Noble Lord would consent to the suggestion. There
was another matter of which the people complained ;
that the police when they cot payment of tithes from the
people, refuted to give them an acknowleoginent for the
money. E, en in Roscommon—a county which w quite
quiet, the police, when they levied tithes, refused to give
any vouchers.
Nord ALTHORP said that it was impossible for the
Government to suspend the laws for the enforcement
of tithes.
Mr. O'CONNELL did not mean to press the Noble
Lord to put an end to tithes. But the present system of
enforcing them was so opprersive to the people—so de-
structive of human life—so harassing to the peasantre
so ruinous in its consequences, as regarded the Govern-
ment—and so contrary to every just feeling, and to the
dictates of religion, teat he put it to the House whether
they should be enforce d while those measures were in
progress? If the Noble Lord were to suspend the en-
forcement of tithes, he (Mr. O'Connell) was sure that be
should have the most respectable majority with him, in
support of that measure, that he ever had since be went
into office. Was the Noble Lord an are of the state of
suffering of the Irish people? This was the period of the
year wh. n they suffered more than at any other period.
The late crop was exhausted, and they had nothing for
their support till the next crop came in; and the misery
awl want to which they were subjected was incomprehen-
sible to any person who did not see it. If the Noble
Lord would accede to her suggestion, be (Mr. O'C.) was
sere that it would in a great measure allay the ferment
lAA the passing of the measure then before the Com-
mit tte would necessarily produce in Ireland.
Mr. STANLEY said that the Hon. and Learned
Member must be aware that it was impossible for the
Government to accede to his proposition. He (Mr.
S entry) did not know what the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber meant by saying that the police levied tithes in Ire-
land. There were two ways in which the police were
employed in connection with the collection of tithes. One ,1
wa , where they were employed to prerect the clergy in
the levying of their tithes ; and the other, where ti ey
collected the tithes by order of the Government in those
districts where money was advanced by the Government
on the tithes, as voted by Parliament during last session.
But he could say that none were employed on the part of
Government to collect tithes, nho wete not in the iiielor
classes, and who had not distinguished themselves in sup-
pressing the disturbances. He denied that Government
bad proceeded against any persons in arrear who could
have any difficulty in pk ing his tureen, or who had
fat en into arrears from real poverty They only pro-
ceeded against those who opposed payment from a syste-
matic resistance to them. He could not say in what
manner the clergy enforced their claims, but he again
asserted that the Government enforc• d payment from
those on y who were able to pay. He (Mr. St inlee)
thought the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was
incorrect in his information, ashen he stated that the po-
lice refused to give receipts to those who paid them money.
Mr. O'CONNELL was always anxious to avoid making
inaccurcee statements, and he did not think that the in-
formation on which he made that one was erroneous.
When the police acted in the enforcement of tithes, the
peo without drawing the nice distinction drawn by
tne Right Hon. Secretary, considered that they did t.o
by the orders of Government, and ireseed that their acts
were the acts of the Government. In Roscommon none
but t, e police were employed to levy tithes. And as to
the refusal of the police to give vouchers, which was
dou ted # y the Right Hon. Secretary, he (Mr. O'Con-
nell) was sure that information might be got in London to
peopt'e cfrere4 tonn'pay them arrears,ifs-Itiiy Courdi
se.mhers, but they were refused. He (Mr. O'Conitell)
was ears the menhir Member for Rosoommon, if he were
in the House, roul I confirm what he said.
OCO NNOR DON said that the Hon. and Learned
Meath. r was rig t io his statement. H. (O'Connor Don),
was aware of several instances in the quarter of the coun-
try with which be was acquainted, where the people wete

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ready to pay, it they rou ti get v,,ucher,—(Hear.)
Mr. 1 RENCH (we understood) denied that •treh was
the univ.r.al practice. The tith,a in one of the largest
parishes in that part of the country were not one-loitieth
part the rent.

- An IIoN. MEMBER sail thst the general impres•inn
in Ireland was. that the Bill was merely intended for the
enforcement of tithes.

Air, LAMBERT, since the Bill had passed the House of
Lord., bad received many letters fiom Ireland, in which it
.rated, that if they did not think it was intended for
pp-urpose of aiding the clergy in the enforcement of he
lies, they %honld have little objec ion to jr.
Mr. TALBOT (Athlone) would nut Lave voted for the
first and erciind reading of the Bill, it he had not been
nod, r the impression that it was not meant fur the en-
forcement of tithes. With regard to a statement made by
an Hon. Alemb:r on a form, t evening, OA he (Mr. Teel.
hot) had been a member of a "'untied! Union, he denied
that he had ever b. crime so with his knowledge or consent.
Mr. O'CONNELL h. g_!e4 leave to rea a letter which
_ . _ _

lie had received from Mr. John Joseph Mut phy, of Dublin,
which would show the Hou•e what that gentleman's cur
sion of the story was. The Hon. Mentb.r then read the
letter, in which it was stated that Mr. Talbot accompanied
the writer and Mr. Fiend' to the meeting of the Trades'
Union. While there, Mr. Murphy asked Mr. Talbot to
olliPw him (Mr. M.) to put him into nomination. Mr.
Talbot answered, " Not now." Mr. Murphy then pro-
posed that he should he put in nomination at the ntxt
meeting ; to which Mr. Talbot did not only not object,
but even assented ; and accordingly be was proposed, anti
pule a member. A few days a terwards Mr. French re-
eeived a letter from Mr. Talbot, who by that time haul
gone to Athlone, in which he stated that he feared it
plight do him an injury with his constituents if it were
known that ha was a member of the Union, and begging
of Mr. French to get his name withdrawn. From all
this it would be seen that Mr. Talbot was aware that he
was made a member, and that he consented to be put in
nomination.

A ter a few words from Lord ALTHORP, whic'a were
inaudible in the gallery,
Mr. TALBOT said, chat the version given by the Hon.
Member for Tralee was very different from what he bad
formerly heard from Mr. French. He (Mr. Talbot) was
not ashamed of having attended the meeting of the Union.
He went there merely from curiosity, just as he had once
gone to the Rotunda to hear the Hon. Member lecture on
the state of the Church.

Mr. HENRY GRATTAN said, that the Attorney-
General had incurred expenses to the amount of 201. fur
sbg recovery of a few shillings of tithe. He thought it
would he better that the enforcement of the arrears should
lie over for three months.

kir. SHAW asked if the clergy were to be the only
cias. of ,his Majesty's subjects who should not have the
protection of the laws ? The Government could have no
more right to suspepd the payment of tithes thin to sus-
pend the payment of rent to landlords.
Lord ALTHORP said, that if outrages were commit-
ted, they should be punished became they were outrage.,

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not beoinse they had ref rence to tithe.
Mr. CI:CONNELL said that the additional powers were
merely fur the enforcement of tithes. It was a Titbe Bill
from beginning to cud,
Mr FINN thought that his Majesty's Ministers should
avow what the real object of rlu. Bill was.
Mr. SHELL said that the Noble Lord opposite denied
that the intention of the Bill was to enforce tithe*. He

did not mean to say that the intentioa of the Government
was, that as soon as a decree WiB given against a min for
tithes, that decree should be delivered over to the soldiers

to put in force. But though the Ministers did not go so
far as that, they went further than they pretended. There
was in this Act a distinct reference to an Art of Parlia-
ment which referred exclusively to tithes. The Act 27th
Geo. related exc usively to tithes, and it was embodied
in the fill; then before them. There was a series of enact-
ments in that Ac►, which related net to property in gene-
ral, but exclusively to tithes. Teat the Not.de Lord could

nor, and did not deny.
An Hox. 111101Beit said the Act to which he had
referred was the Whiteboy Act.
Mr. SEIEIL—No; it was Dot '.;he Whiteboy Act. The
Whiteboy Act was the ibth and 16gli of Go. 111. He