The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-17 00:00:00

POOR REMOVAL BILL.

On the order of the day for proceeding with this BiJI
being read, •

Afr. E. I)ENISON, who was for some time inaudible
front the noise which prevailed after the Noble Lord sat
down, was understood to say that the Poor Removal
Bill would cause great injury and great inconvenience in
many parts of the country. He begged leave to ask
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home
Department whether irremovability or settlement was
contemplated by the Bill. He was sure it would not
meet with the approbation of the Hon. Member for
Finsbury to grant irremovability without settlement.
The word irremovability was a word not to be found in
any dictionary, and it related to a condition of lite not
to be found in any law-book. Before that word could
have penetrated the understandings of half the com-
munity it might have to be swept totally away. He
(Mr. E. Denison) thought it right to tell the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government that there was one remai k-
able deficiency and one great defect in his administration;
there was one great thing wanting, and that was a want
of adequate representation of the landed interest of this
country. He said the great towns were amply and
powerfully represented. The law was represented more
than it deserved— (Laughter)—but he looked in vain
t*.,r any powerful parties to represent the interests of the
land. In the Government were the representatives of
London, Manchester, Halifax, Nottingham. Sheffield.
Devonport, and Edinburgh ; end when he named
Edinburgh, he would not do justice to his own feelings
if he did not mention the Hon. Member for that city
(Mr. Macaulay), not less celebrated for his great talents
than for his upright and noble conduct—an ornament to
an Administration. But he looked in vain for any re-
presentatives of the land. There was Lord Lansdowne,
an owner of land in England, and also in Ireland ; there
was Lord Grey and Lord Morpeth—(Hear, hear)—but.
Lord Morpeth had his character as a representative of
land in the manufacturing interests of the West Riding.
and in the membership of the League.—(Laughter.)
He said, Lord Grey, in pressing on the abolition of the
oorn- laws, had said that land rents would rise from
fifteen to twenty per cent.—(Hear, and laughter)—and
he could only be regarded as a sanguine prophet.—
(Laughter.) When that had occurred he might rise
into credit; but he (Mr. Denison) did not think, that at
the present moment especially, he represented either
their interests or their views. As for the Mem-
ber for Halifax (Mr. C. Wood), he was no representative
of the land by his own address, and he (Mr. Denison)
found him applauded in the newspapers as the represen-
tative of the manufacturing interests of the West Riding,
and the repealer of the tax on wool. If this was ade
feet in any Administration, it was so particularly at the-
present moment, when the landed interest hail

'eceived a rude shock from :he hands of those
from whom it had least reason to expect it.
I•he landowners required to be conciliated towards the
measure which had lately passed. If at any time it
was a defect in a Ministry that it did ri.,t represent the
landed interest of the country, it was. particu-
larly so at this time. No person could say that
he was one who wished for anything like exclusive
privileges, for on a former occasion, when exclusive pt i •
vileges were sought to he afforded to the land, he had
thrown his weight into the opposite scale, and had been
denounced as faithless among the faithful. At the
present moment the lauded interest had no
quarter to which to look for receiving a due attention to
Liteir interests, while questions seriously affecting
hem were about to be brought—forward questions upon
which they would feel deeply ; there was the Law of
Settlement Bill, the Highway Rates Bill, the Turnpike
Trusts, and other Bills affecting the question of local
taxation. He begged leave to tell his Noble Friend that
if his Administration was to last, it must be by its mea-
sures that it would last, and that the defect: in his
Ministry to which he had alluded, he was sorry to say,
was one of such a nature as to prevent him giving it
that degree of confidence which be would otherwise
hate been happy to aford.
Colonel WOOD thought that the Hon. Member who
last addressed the House should have allowed the Noble
Lord to state the course which he intended to pursue,
before he had attempted to find fault with his Ministry.
He thought that his Hon. Friend was somewhat mis-
aken in the view he had taken of the division of the
Poor-law Removal 'Bill. The question of settlement
was one which was not proposed by the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the late Administration
when he first announced the measure. It was a Bill
merely to prevent the removal of paupers. The
clause affecting the settlement of the poor
was introduced afterwards by the Honourable Member
for Maldon (Mr. E. Denison) himself.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that he took the liberty a
few evenings ago to put a question to she Noble Lord as
to the principles upon which the Government was to be
conducted. That question had excited irritation in the
Noble Lord's mind, but it was a question which the
country would require to have answered. Let them
look at thevstate of the House at present. Nobody
knew where to sit.—(Laughter.) Sitting on the
same side with the Noble Lord were those who had
hitherto been his bitterest enemies. The reason of this
was, as he understood, that they had been informed that.
none but the extremes would be
_dissatisfied. Now this

required explanation. Every Prime Minister in coming
into office had stated the principles on which he intended
to act. Tho Noble Lord ha►dd said that he should conduct
the (;are, ment on the principles whicih he had hitherto
laektuji 'ow,vivilo could put a ;fight coustractiog upoit

that ? Nobody knew what it meant. To what period
of his life did the Noble Lord allude ? Had he said, I
shall act on the principles of Lord Grey's Government,
he (Mr. Duncombe) would have understood him. Then
there was another question. Had not the Noble Lord
applied to Sir Robert Peel to lend him three distin-
guibhed members of the late Government ?—(A laugh )
Now he (Mr. Duncombe) wished to krow if such ap-
plication had been made. If the Noble Lord were to
go to Guildhall now his reception would not be so
gratifying as it was a few days ago.—(Disappro-
baiion.) Why, let the Noble Lord try it.—(Laughter.)
He (Mr. Duncombe) had seen some of the Noble Lord's
constituents that morning, and one of them said he was
afraid they were going to have the old Whig dodge again.
He read at the time a statement made in a paper called
the Weekly chronicle, which was composed with great
ability, as everything which proceeded from the pen of
his Hon. Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty was
written with great ability.— (Loud laughter.) He read
that ten days ago. It stated that there could be nothing
more absurd than the rumours which had beep
circulated, and were hourly c'rculated, about the
new Ministry. Every hour had its lie, and every
lie its believer. That was one of th it crotchets. They
could comprehend the crotchet of a Peel mania, a Sid-
ney Herbert mania, and a Lord Granville Somerset
mania. If there was to be a fusion of parties to make a
Government, let them have Sir R. Peel and Sir J. Gra-
ham, and they would then have something for their money.
(Laughter.) The Sun also had its rumours. The
Sun says, " We eannot c moire a system of Irish gu
vernment in which Lord Lincoln is the confidential agent."
They heard this as an absurd rumour in which then,
was not a word of truth. The Times also be-
comes the confidential organ of the Government
Would any man in that Hi,the say that they were not
entitled to au explanation ? The country whose desti-
nies the Government was about to direct were also en-
titkd to some explanation from them—(Hear, hear)—
and he therefore did expect that the Noble Lord
would have been anxious to have stated the principles
on which he intended to conduct the Government.
He (Mr. Duncombe) wanted to know what were the in-

tentions of the Government. The Noble Lord had re-
moved part of the difficulty, because he had told the.
House that he meant to conduct his Government upor
the principles that he had always advocated, and.
the opinions he had always expressed. Well, then,
he (Mr. Duneombe) also wanted to know what were the
Intentions of the Noble Lord with regard to the Irish
Church?—(hear, hear.) What were the opinions of
the Noble Lord with respect to the Irish Church last
year. His (Mr. Duncombe's) Hon.urafle Frknd

he Member- fir Sheffirld (Mr. Ward), moved
upon the discussion of the Maynooth Bill.
That it is the opinion of this llouse that any provi
*ions to be made for that purpose by the present
ought to be taken from the funds already applicable
to ecclesiastical purposes in Ireland." Now the
Noble Lord supported and voted for that motion.
Well, then, he wished to know whether that was to be
the principle upon which the Government was to be di.
rected on that subject ?—(Hear, hear.) Let the House
know whit was the Governments' intention. The

lion. Gentleman opposite, of the country party, wh]
had a dinner the ether day at Greenwich.
(Great laughter)—declared, amidst cheers which spool:
the house in which they mi t to its foundations, that
their principles were the same in 1846 as they were in
1841.—(Great cheering from the Protectionists.) But
he should like to know what were their principles ih
1841.—k Laughter, and cheers.) Did they not in 1841
come to a resolution that the Government of that time
had not the confidence of that House, and that her Majesty
should be prayed to appoint a new Ministry?—(Hear,
hear, and cheers.) And yet, were they not now support-
ing that very Government in whom they, in 1841.
declared they had no confidence.—(Cries of " No, no,"
from the Protectionists.) They did support them, or
why did they sit on the same benches. (Hear.
hear, and cheers.) Were they now prepared to
support a Government favourable to the Maynooth
endowment, when in 1845 they declared themselves de-
cidedly opposed to it ?—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
supported the Maynooth Bill, and in doing so, said that
it was but the prelude to other measures involving the
endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy. in Ireland. A
Noble Lord (Lord Howick) who was then in that House.
went still further, and said—" I will take the Protestant
Church revenues and apply them to the R.:man Catho-
lics in the first instance, and the remainder to the Pro-
testant clergy, lzecause those revenues of the church
originally belonged to the Roman Catholics."—(Hear.)
And he would call upon the Noble L rd to state wheth--1
he does entertain his old opinions with regard to al!
finality of the Reform Bill.—(llear, hear.) Thet
there was another question which he desired to
be informed upon ; he was anxious to know
what course would be pursued with regard to the Bill
for restricting the hours of labour in factories. The
Noble Lord had given his zealous support to that Bill
during.: the whole of the last session, and he has now the
means. by a great majority, to carry out that measure.
He (Mr. Duncombe) hoped that that important measure
would not be left to the care of private individuals. He
recognised in the Government of the Noble Lord several
opponents of the measure. He, therefore, considered
that these were circum-tances which required, which
demanded explanation; and in his opinion it was the
interest of all parties that we should no longer be
deceived, or allow ourselves to be deceived.--(Hear.)
It was a charge against the late Prime Minister, that
he did not deceive any body, but he allowed other
to deceive themselves. It is necessary that we should
know the truth—(Hear, hear, hear)—that we shouht
know the worst, acrd what we have to expect trom this
Government. If the measures of the Noble Lord
are extensive. and conceived in a liberal spirit, hr.
could promise him the greatest possible support.
out of doors.
LordJ. RUSSELL—When the Hon. Member asked
me the other day whether I was prepared to lay a declara-
tion before the House of the principle's upon which the
Ministry of which I was the head would be conducted.

I declined to undertake the task. I took no offence.:
as the Hon. Gentleman seems to suppose, to that ques-
tion, but it did not seem to be necessary that a person
who had taken a part—perhaps an unwise part--perhaps
an injurious part to the country.—in the discussions of
this House, but who had always taken, at least, an
open part in these discussions —(Cheers)—when he was
(-ailed upon by her Majesty to. form a Government, anti
had succeeded i❑ inducing persons who, in his opinion,
Were competent to conduct the affairs of the different tae•
partments —to share with him in his responsibility-1
say, when that was the case, I did not think it necessary
to make a general parade of the opinions and principles
—a parade is very easy to make—(Hear, hear)—of de-
clarations which may convey the sentiments of a large
majority in this House, and yet when that parade i.
made may leave Members as ignorant as they
were before as to the precise measures which
the Government means to introduce. I did
not, therefore, think it necessary to make any such de-
clarations, and although the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Duncombe) has alluded to various persons who have
before filled the station which I have the honour to hold.
and who have made these statements, I am at a loss to
call to mind when such dr clarations were made, or who
were the persons who made these general declarations
upon entering office.
Mr. DUNCOMBE—Lord Grey.
Lord J. lIUSSELL—I do not know that Lord Grey
made, in the House of Lords, a general statement of
the principles on w hich he intended to conduct his Ad.
ministration. Ido not recollect that Lord Melbourne
did so. Ido not recollect that Sir Robert Peel math
any such declaration. Both my Hon. Friend the Mem
her for Malden (Mr. E. Denison), and th,
Honourable Gentleman the Member for Fins
bury (Mr. Duncombe), have made various comments ant
criticisms upon the composition of the Ministry, ant
have asked—at least my Hon. Friend the Mt mber fut
Finsbury did so—various questions, to some of which I

shall proceed to give an answer. I own I think, consi-
dering the past history of the commerce and manufac
tures in the country, and how vast a portion of the
wealth of the country depends upon commerce and ma
nufactures, I think it rather unjust, as a criticism mad.
by t(.e Hon. Member fur Finsbury, ilvit there are to-.
Inany in the Cabinet connected by family with land, aril'
too few persons connected with -commerce and manufac-
tures. On the one side, it has I?..en said that AO. Pre-
terence has been given to the landed and, on the
other, that the manuraerdrerk of Lancashire and York
bhire are hencetbrth to govern the country. I deny
holding any such sentiment. I hold myself that not lot
land, not for commerce, not fair manufactures,
the affairs of the country should be managed,
but tl at the Government should be con
ducted for the benefit of the whole. I do think
hat by the manner and the measures whereby they fulfil
their high trusts the Members of the Government ought
o be judg- d, and not from their connexion with land b)
birth, or with law by profession. The Member for
Finsbury (Mr. Duneowbe) asks, whether in constructing
the Government I did ask the aid of those gentlemen
who were colleagues in the late Government ; and the
Hon. Gentleman puts it in that spirit of levity with
which he entertains the House.—(Hear, aLd laughter.)
- Did I ask the Right Hon. Baronet to lend me three o'
his colleagues?" I hope the House will not understand the
answer in the same tone. I did ask the Earl of Dalhousie,
he Earl of L'atcolu, and the Right Hon. Sydney Htrbert
to do rue the honour to be colleagues in the Govern.
went which I was then about to form.—(Hear, hear.)
It was my opinion that I ought not to ask the aid of par-
sons from whom I differed widely in political sentiments;
but these persons have entertained opinions, and advo-
cated them lately, quite consistent with my own. But 1
did think that it was of great consequence to the
honour of my Sovereign, and the peace and well-being of
the country that such a Government should be formed
that the country should place confidence in it—some
placing their confidence in some of the Members, others
in others, while all the Members of that Government
agreed in the same general policy. I do not say that
up to 1841, not up to 1842 and 1543; but I have found
myself agreeing with these persons in the opi-
nions which were advanced
,by them of late.—(Hear.)
I supported them when they brought forward measures
for the advancement of what is called free trade, taking
away restrictions, and abolishing monopolies. I agreed
with them when they introduced measures—just in prize
ciple, though not wise as to the moment of their intro-
duction—to conciliate Ireland; and I could not see that
there would be any dishonour attached to those gentle-
men in consequence of their joining with me in the Go-
vernment. They us-pre:se:l themselves in terms very
courteous to me, and they stated that they thought they
could not take office in the present Administration.
It was, of course, for them to form their own judgment
upon the matter, and I certainly cannot reproach my-
self with doing anything else than my duty to the Sove-
reign in making that proposition. The Hon. Gentleman
next alluded to certain reports which had.appeared in
various newspapers. I do not think that it is neces-
sary for me to enter into the subject of reports in news-
papars. lam not, of course, responsible for them. The
Member alluded to a certain question upon which
wialed to know the opinion of toe govatoeuts.