The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-22 00:00:00

IRELAND.

The Earl of GLENGALL asked if the Government
intended to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland,
as it was rumoured they intended to do so, because if
such were their intention, he should not proceed with
the motion of which he had given notice.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that it was the
intention of the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment to introduce into the other House of Parliament a
measure authorising the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, or
the Lords Justices, to arrest and detain such persons
as he and they might suspect were conspiring against
her Majesty's Government.

The Earl of GLENGALL would then proceed with
the motion of which he had given notice for returns re-
specting the formation of clubs in Ireland since Jan. 1,
1848. Clubs had been organized in Ireland for the pur-
poses of rebellion. These clubs existed in Dublin. In
bringing forward this motion he was willing to admit that
Lord Clarendon had done all he could to preserve the
peace of Ireland. He had acted with judgment,
with decision, with energy; but that Noble Lord had not
been invested with sufficient powers. He had not the
powers necessary to enable him to prevent the disaf-
fected from organising clubs for the subversion of all
government and of all order. The Members of these
clubs aimed at producing a social as well as a political
revolution. They declared that they were determined
to exterminate the Irish landlords, to destroy the Protes-
tant landlords, whopossessed nine-tenths of the country;
they called these the English garrison, and declared
that they must be extirpated, and the clubs declared
that they were prepared to carry out this object by
means of pikes and blunderbusses. They had not only
instructed the men to arm themselves, but they had in-
structed the women to throw hoops, encircled with burn-
ing tow, from the windows on the heads of the soldiers.
One of their leaders had passed in review these clubs in
the south of Ireland, consisting of several thousand men.
The clubs had sought for assistance in America and
tlhriis s
was
motion.i Cn I ub b
consequence is t I
of the vFrance, and those who had deluged Paris with blood in
the month of June last were in connexion with the
st.th was 'orshetrue
The
things nobility
otbhialitttoytehrtey the
yne uduhnasogdametbisnortrsorayuecogtorhoftslronriea,, andlteaunord
it w had
representeds
nature
of his answer that he had been induced to bring ery, ta
forward
these persons to trial, and had obtained a conviction.
They had others now awaiting their trial on the Bth of
August. It was the intention of these clubbists to produce
an outbreak to prevent the trial of the prisoners. They
would not, perhaps, succeed; but woull the juries do their
duty ? could they do their duty ? Several of the jurors
who had convicted the late Mr. O'Connell had been
ruined in consequence, and the names of the jurors who
had convicted Mitchel had been circulated throughout
the country, and they were marked men. It was im-
portant to give the necessary protection to the well af-
fected. Another great evil was with reference to the
evidence. On all such occasions it was difficult to obtain
juries aed witnesses. Special commissions were so fre-
quent that they almost became regular assizes ; and if a
witness in Ireland told the truth, it was necessary that
he should at once :expatriate himself and his family.
Whether these commissions succeed or not depended on
the sheriff, for if he did not return the first persons in
the county, they would have no juries at all ; and in
consideration of those persons. the Government ought
to put down the agitation which existed. How was it
possible with so much division of opinion that evil
results could be avoided ? Until this agitation was
put down, until these clubs were put down, and
such meetings as those at Conciliation-hall were
put a stop to, proclamations would be vain. The far-
mer and labourer did nothing but think and talk
of politics, and persons now were progressing through
the country to sow dissension in every quarter. People
were obliged to take part in these proceedings or they I
became marked men. The Roman Catholic gentry, he
believed, were as well affected as their Protestant bre-
thren, but their case was far different. If a Roman
Catholic gentleman acted against agitation, he was imme-
diately singled out and termed "an Orange Catholic,"
and when a person received that appellation, the sooner
he made his will the better. Ile had received most
frightful accounts from many gentlemen in districts
which had not been proclaimed. Their own tenants
they said had come to them and stated that the day of
insurrection was coming on the Btb of August, and they
were obliged to join these traitor. —they daied not re-
sist them. Tumultuous assemblages and most sedi-
tious acts were committed in proclaimed dis-
tricts, and the parties who committed those
outrages in some instances had but just been
charged with misdemeanors. Mr. Doheny ought to
have been prosecuted under the Crown and Government
Security Act. The moment he was liberated on bail he
put on certain uniform worn in 1782, and proceeded to
Cashel, where he advised the people to arm. He also
met between ten and twelve thousand men last Sunday.
A man who had been tried, but not found guilty, of
sedition, had also attended a meeting, and so serious
was the demonstration made that the military was held
in readiness to act. At Carrick-on-Suir a most serious
disturbance had occurred. It was not true that a priest
had been arrested; but three other parties were. The
moment, however, that they were arrested, the chapel
bells were rung, and a large party proceeded to the gaol,
where bail was taken for the prisoners. That showed how
ready the people were for rebellion. When the tocsin
sounded the whole population rushed into the town de-
termined to pull down half the town, and they would have
broken open the gaol doors if tho men had not been re-
leased. The Rev. Mr. Byrne, however, told them to go
home for the present; and what occurred a night or two
ago ? Upon a fire being lighted near Clonmel fires also
appeared in many other places immediately. Under
these circumstances he felt confident that proclamations
were not sufficient ; and he was glad that the Govern-
ment bad determined to act with energy and determina-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) The English people would, he was
sure, go with the Government, and aid them in main-
taining law and order.—(Hear, hear.) He bad intended
to say much more on the subject, but as the Government
had;; determined to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act, he
would congratulate the people of Ireland and England
on Chao fact, and content himself by at once moving for
the papers of which he had given notice.—(Cheers.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had not sought to
prevent the Noble Earl from giving notice of his motion.
He had been reported to have stated on a former night
that discussion on the state of Ireland would be attended
with: public inconvenience ; but, on the contrary, he bad
said that whether he concurred in the motion of the
Noble Earl or not he thought it a desirable opportunity
for aiscussing the subject and hearing the opinion of the
Houtse upon it. He considered, however, that it might
be citesirable for the Noble Earl to withdraw his motion,
althsaugh he concurred in the propriety of the attention
of the House being called to the subject ; and
he was 'not prepared to deny the statement
which had been made in any particular; on
the contrary, the Noble Earl had founded it on
facts which were known to all the world; and it was
cot. duct which the parties themselves had in no degree
att.( unpted to dissemble. It was unnecessary to state in
nh it degree, in an ordinary state of society, clubs might
be more or less permitted, and when they were danger-
ous and when they were not. It would be difficult to
tak a the precise gauge and dimensions of clubs, and
poi at out under what circumstances they might be per-
mit ited; but, at this moment, the clubs referred to had
reached a pitch in Ireland which he would affirm to be,
on the authority of the Lord-Lieutenant, and on the au-
thc prity of all the servants of the Crown, subversive of
pit' 3lie peace and the prelude to civil war.—(Hear.) Their
pr. sceedings were before the public. Their secret move-
Int eats he could not attempt to discover, but when he
lot thed at the systematic formation of these clubs, and at
th. sir increase, and when he regarded their language,
an 1 looked at their objects—when he also observed the
mi litary array by which they sought to attain those
ob jects—they had all the elements of insurrection before
f
th am, and they only wanted an absolute declaration of
wt tr.—(Hear, her.) When he saw this military array
di :rected by a person who went to Paris withbetene
rejected
of ject of seeing the clubs there, and,
having
g knocking
by - the Government of that country, went about.sof
his
own
fr. sm door to door to seek out the enemies
from that
co untry—(Hear, hear)—and, when
returningofttase clubs in
m ission, he was placed at the head
the
ob
ject._
(Hear,
Jr eland, there could be no doubatsof
engaged afterwards,
ht tar.) When that person was wGovernment, but with
n, st in a conflict
with
and talked of abandoning
hi .s own countrymen,
" his public life" —when
w bat he chose to term
" puhlic life" to organize
h s again returned to ,
d in review at successive
when he passe
tl is system, and
if not possessed of arms, had
it itervals persons who,.
and told that it was nothing,
• tructed in training,
b eon ins
u mess they had use—when he observed all this,
v ras there any
difficultyr
amaet
iu seeing the object in view?—.
( Hear.) lie therefore said that the notoriety of the case
% ins made out, and
when the Noble Lord made his mo-
t ion for copies of the
reports from stipendiary magis-
t rates, i
he did not object to it, but he wished him to sub-
,‘ extracts of dispatches," because they included
greattitute
deal of matter which it would not be
fit to lay
I aefore the public—(Hear, hear)--and which would
• weaken the case and defeat the object of the Govern-
ment if published. With regard to the powers which
existed, the Noble Earl at the head of the Government
in Ireland would not, he was sure, be suspected of
not giving effect to those powers—powers which
were more usefully employed than the Noble Earl
opposite seemed disposed to think; for when he said
they had not been so effectual in procuring the
possession of arms, he must not forget that the power
exercised led to the abandonment of the open use of
arms, which had been productive of the best effect. The
Noble Earl (Clarendon) attached the greatest import-

ance to the Act to which he referred. 71.------e (the Mar Tur:lo3\
Lansdowne) knew he had abstained as long as . ,---i.., '.,! --'" ~.. 0
sibly could from applying it to the great cities ~..7-7.7 1-00'r
land, and particularly to Dublin.—(Hear, hest )00-114F4-4-‘lO. 11..*..::::›
ctflit7:7,i.i.
also knew that his Noble Friend thought that th t• s,)k
(
. . ti,
had now come when the Act must be strictly en all ; C. , -
and it would be with all that vigilance and sagac'e ' :,
which characterised his Noble Friend. Other Act 01 r-sr.. --
ei6 A„
N i V L. 4 Psi Parliament applicable to the present emergency had been
revived by the Government of Ireland, one of which
against training had already been brought into operation _
with very good effects, and as it was about to expire, the
Government would call upon the Legislature
to renew it during the present session.—(Hear,
hear.) He could not agree with the Noble Earl
in thinking that the trial by jury was so ineffective
in Ireland as he had represented it to be—more particu-
larly when he recollected the courage and honesty with
which the jurors empanelled during the recent trials for
murder had discharged the functions that devolved on
them. The conduct of these jurors entitled them to re-
ceive the thanks of their country, and it was only justice
to those who were called upon to assist at the cases at
Limerick, to state that not a single witness shrank from
giving his evidence in a truthful manner, and thus aid-
ing the cause of justice. He entirely coincided in the
opinion expressed by the Noble Earl, that the clubs ex-
ercised a power of intimidation in Ireland over all
classes, high and low, rich and poor; and notices were
universally spread abroad by these associations that they
considered all who did not join them, and act in concert
with them, to be their enemies, thus abusing what they
termed liberty, and rendering that term more hateful
than the worst despotism of an absolute Government.
Was not this a state of things that ought to be grappled
with by the Government?—(Hear, hear.) Did it not
call for the exercise of all the powers of Government?—
(Hear, hear.) And he would say that his Noble Friend
at the head of the Ministry was prepared to use those
powers, supported as he hoped he would be by both
Houses of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) He knew it had
been said, why did not the Government wait? Why do
to-day what might be put off till to-morrow? In an-
swer to these objections he could only express his belief
that they had arrived at a state of things, when any
loss of time would be a certain loss of power.—(Hear,
hear.) If the power of the Government were now
exerted, so far from tending to a loss of life or an im-
pairment of liberty, the very reverse would be the effect
of prompt measures.—(Hear.) Under these circumstances
the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had informed the Go-
vernment that the time had arrived when it was
necessary to arm him with the power of detaining all
persons suspected of treasonable or seditious intentions
or opinions. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) thought
that this was a power very justly called for by his Noble
Friend, because the exercise of it would strike at the
leaders of the insurrectionary parties in Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) The condition of the population of that coun •
try ought to be taken into consideration. They had
strong tendencies to commit excesses. They were
marked by an incapacity to judge correctly of their
own condition. They were deprived of the advantages
of having capital employed amongst them, and when,
in addition to all these characteristics, he found that
they had recently suffered severely under a dispensation
of Providence which had inflicted the horrors of famine
upon them, he felt that there were some excuses for the
population being excited into manifestations of sedition,
and led away by their teachers and orators. But as
for those leaders and teachers, who knew the falsity of
the statements which they uttered, and who had taken
advantage of the sufferings caused by famine to turn the
minds of the people against the Government, he felt that
for such leaders no pity ought or could be entertained,
and it was against them that the whole power of the
Government and of the Parliament would be fairly and
justly levelled.—(Hear.) He was, therefore, of opinion
that the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland was justified in
making the demand which he had done, and he trusted
the Parliament would manifest no other feeling on the
subject than that they trusted the power so asked for in
1 safe hands—(Hear)—and, also, that his Noble Friend,
having only asked for it at the last moment, was all the
more likely to exercise it prudently and with modera-
tion. For the reasons, therefore, that he had stated, he
hoped the Noble Earl would withdraw his motion, as the
production of the correspondence would only lead to bad
results, and could do no good. Before he sat down he
must state on the authority of his Noble Friend (the
Earl of Clarendon) that, although there were individual
instances to the contrary, the conduct of the great por-
tion of the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland had
been most meritorious—(Hear)—and they had exerted
themselves most effectually in opposing the progress of
sedition and inflammation—(Hear, hear)—and he might
add, that many cases might be cited where they had
made effectual exhortations to their flocks to maintain
peace and to prevent the contagion of treason and dis-
content from reaching them. And these facts his Noble
Friend was most anxious should be publicly stated and
universally known.

Lord BROUGHAM said that he was one of not a
few Members of their Lordships' House who were dis-
posed to ask the Government why they had waited so
long. Now, however, after the delay of six months,
they were prepared to act, and he cordially approved of
their intention, only hoping it was not adopted too late
to be effectual. The :.-.nly way to avoid the unhappy
state of things observable in a neighbouring country
was to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland, or,
in other words, to give the authorities there the power
to imprison persons without having any sworn informa-
tions against them. By so doing the Government would
have the power of imprisoning the leaders of the
sedition, and thus those would be taken away in whose
absence the insurrection could not proceed. He would
call their Lordships' attention to a statement made
by a person of high legal authority, who gave it
us hi opinion that the suspension of the Habeas
Corpus Act was a remedy for the evil, inasmuch as
it tended to cure and not to irritate. He had been told
that he was at liberty to cite the name of the late Mr.
O'Connell as that of the authority to whom he referred,
but he had declined to do so unless the conversation
wherein he made the assertion was committed to paper
by the very respectable person who had held it with him.
This had been done, and he would ROW proceed to read
the record of the conversation. The Noble Lord then
read a statement to the effect that about three weeks be-
fore Sir Robert Peel's Coercion Bill of 1845 was brought
in, the late Daniel O'Connell deliberately stated to the
writer, in the presence of a Learned Doctor and another
gentleman, who was since a Member of Parliament,
whose names he (Lord Brougham) would, together with
his informant's, communicate to the Noble Marquis, that
in his opinion the true remedy and the safe and constitu-
tional course to pursue in regard to Limerick was to resort
to what was commonly called the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act, as that would cure and not irritate.
And Mr. D. O'Connell also then stated that if Sir R.
Peel made out a case, he would support him in suspend-
ing the Habeas Corpus Act, provided he (Sir H. Peel)
produced at the same time to the House those measures
of relief and justice to Ireland which he (Sir R. Peel) had
so often promised to give to the people of that country.
In that case, Mr. D. O'Connell said he would give his
hearty support to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus,
but he would oppose any Curfew Bill, as that would irri-
tate and not cure the malady. The writer proceeded to
state that, with Mr. D. O'Connell's permission, ho had put
this conversation on paper and shown it to Sir R. Peel and
Lord J. Russell. Such testimony, continued the Noble
Lord (Brougham), was of no slight value in support of the
measure proposed by the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland and
her Majesty's Government. He himself was, in com•
mon with the Noble Marquis opposite, a firm unalter-
able friend to liberty, and it was because he was so
that he detested anarchy, and such scenes as were now
witnessed in Ireland. He hoped and trusted that the
Noble Lord and his colleagues would not forget one
sentence uttered by his Noble Friend near him, namely,
that the peril was great and immediate. Let the
measure be also immediate in its enactment, so that
the remedy might be quickly applied. He believes
that the Government could not take a wiser or more
regular course than to suspend the standing ordersand pass the Bill at once. Those who wished to see
an outbreak in Ireland would avail themselves of the
delay, however short, which might in_y.riviennto law.e between
the present time and the passing of a 13"
Lord STANLEY said,
might be which was created by
that
rTeat the alarm
°
'
the
knowledge
Government was going to resort
iin the country who
t to strong measures,
vs.'•ledge that the
there was no right-thinking ii?
would not cordially rejoice a
' tters, and if there was any
hearing the announcement
made by her Majesty
drawback to that feelings
o
Minfissatisfaction it was not on
account of the promptnessf the determination of the
Government, but rather becauseo.or the measure about to, of the delay that had
taken place in coming to it. For
months nmt he as
nasgoo r,
be proposed was not a lossofpowesrombeut
strength—and had it
the state of Ireland would beenn
proposedorflebe
psoower s dangerousasked foras it
wouldnow
was. He did not know if
but at all events they were
be sufficient for the
spu
right ~i tor thereby the Government
ene bled:I:too strike the proper persons. He did
owfoulad be victims of their own credulity sub-
not desire to
jected to the renalties attached to the law. lie rather
d expected to see those who had so basely prac-
tised ontileciedulity of the people, and who had for their
own person
al purposes misled them, first struck at by the
authorities. It was those who incited others to sedition
and treason, and yet who had knowledge enough to en-
able them to keep within the letter of the law, that ought
to pay the penalty of their wickedness. He did not wish
to see them punished for the sake of vengeance, but for
that of example and for the good of the community. On
them ho trusted severity would fall in all the weight of
the law, and he also hoped that no delays would be per-
mitted to retard the progress of the measure ; if such de-:-
lay should be permitted to take place the sword of justice'
would fall without effect. If the course pursued in for-
mer trials for sedition was again followed, it would be
March, 1849, before the instigators of tho
seditious practices of May and June, 1848,
could be tried. He entirely agreed with
the Noble Marquis and his Noble Friend near him, that
the juries in Ireland had done their duty admirably dur-
ing the late trials. But it must be recollected that the
trials wore on the charges of murder, and the offenders
had not been brought to conviction without many pre-
cautions having been taken to protect witnesses ; but
cases of przedial crime were very different from such
offences as were contemplated by the measures of the
Government; and if the political feelings of the popu-
lation of Ireland were such as the Noble Earl had de-
scribed, they would to a man rejoice at the escapelrom
conviction of a rebel. If that were so, and he believed
it was, could it be hoped or expected that ordinary
juries would convict men of political offences in Ireland?
He mistrusted the juries as far as political trials were
concerned, not only on account of their sympathy with
the prisoners, but also because of the feeling of timidity
which would prevent them from giving a verdict
against their own countryman and fellow-Ca-
tholic. And he agreed with the Noble Earl in think-
ing that if there was a class of men exposed to danger
amidst the conflicts of political and religious opinions
iu Ireland it was the Roman Catholic farmers and