The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-21 00:00:00

Lord STANLEY regretted that in the discussion this
evening he saw nothing to induce him to alter the opinion
which he had before expressed. The question before the Com-
mission and their Lordships was how the financial incomes of
the Church of England and Wales could he so regulated
as would produce at y improvement. It was for their
Lordships to consider whether they would follow the recom-
mendations of the Commissioners on that subject or not. His
Right Rev. Friend deprecated the taking away of the revenues
from the poor people of Wales to establish a see in the rich dis-
trict of Manchester. But the real object was altogether con-
fined to Wales—by Ile union of Bangor and Rt. Asaph to in-
crease the revenues of St. Asaph and Landaff. In proof of this,
his Lordship referred to the Order in Council. There was
another question, which had nothing to do with finance; it had
altogether to do with the augmentation of bishops. He denied
ever having expressed any wish for the reduction, or any oppo-
sition to the augmentation of the number of bishops. He had
called their Lordships' attention to the difficulties with which
the question was surrounded. He had suggested that there
were two alternatives open to their Lordships, either to aug-
ment the temporal power of the church, by augmenting the
number of bishops, and introducing them to that House, or I,y
augmenting them, and excluding a certain number from that
House. There were difficulties, he said, on that occasion con-
nected with both; and that he was certain their Lordships would
adopt either, only after great deliberation. But he would not
trouble their Lordships with what had occurred on a former
occasion. The fact was, that if Bangor and St. Asaph
were united to-night, it would be found, judg-
ing of the two sees by area, benefices, or popu-
lation, •that they would be less than some twenty or
twenty-two out of the rest of the twenty-six dioceses. Exeter,
for example, Norwich or Chester would be found almost
double, but some others would be ascertained to be seven,
eight. and even tenfold greater than the united sees of St.
Asaph and Bangor. He confessed he could not, however, con-
cur in the second reading of the Bill at a time when so little
had been ascertained as to the course on which that Bill was
leading them would end in.
The Bishop of SALISBURY could not allow this Bill to
he put to the vote without making a few observations. A
Noble Lord said that if the revenues of one of the sees went
to the support of the poor benefices in the dioceses, the re •
suit would be exceedingly advantageous to the religious in-
terests of the people. The Right Reverend Prelate in reply to
that went into a comparative statement of the condition of the
benefices in St. Asaph and Bangor, with other dioceses, with
the view of showing that as far as the value of the
benefices, the population and other circumstances,
there were no grounds whatever for a different
appropriation of the revenues of the Church. He
considered that it would be much better if the consideration of
the question were postponed to the next session, and he was
quite sure if the Noble Earl complied with his suggestion, it
would tend very much to promote the interests of the Church.
The Bishop of NORWICH could nct agree with the Noble
Earl in the Bill he brought forward. He considered, how-
ever, there ought to be an increase in the number of the
bishops ; and, for that purpose, wished Manchester to have a
prelate ; but, taking the circumstances of the dioceses in ques-
tion into consideration, he must vote against the Noble Earl's
measure.
Earl GREY said that the happiest results had followed the
carrying out the recommendations of the Church Commission,
and he sincerely believed that the improved tone of pnblic
opinion in regard to the Church was entirely to be attributed
to the reforms suggested by that Commission. If their Lord-
ships admitted the applicability of the Noble Earl's proposition
with regard to Wales, they would have to extend its applica-
tion to other places, and by degrees and detail break down and
destroy the recommendations of the Ecclesiastical Commission,
the measure passed a few years ago by Parliament, and nullify
all the excellent improvements which had been made. He was
by no means disposed to deny that an increase of
bishops would be advantageous, but let them make that
increase in such a manner as to make it most available for the
general efficiency of the whole church. Was there any proof
before them that if they were to have 27 instead of 26 Bishops,
the best mode to do -that was by keeping the dioceses of St.
Asaph and Bangor separate ? Whether they looked to the ex-
tent of the territory— the number of benefices—or the amount
of the population of these dioceses, it would be seen that they
stood in less need of the episcopal superintendence of two
Bishops than other dioceses in England. He said there was
another question which ought td be considered before they
committed themselves to any alteration—that was, the want of
parochial clergy throughout the kingdom. The want was
great, and admitted on all hands; but he said, if he was right,
and if they adopted the Bill on the table, they would strike
directly at the possibility of that improvement. The Noble
Earl then alluded to the report of the Church Commission,
which, after referring to the want of clergy, chapels, and
churches, and the means of sheir support, stated that, of all
the evils connected with the Establishment, this evil—the want
of clergy, and the means of their support—was the greatest
and the most urgent ; but that, notwithstanding this urgency,
all that could be done to meet it was to endea-
vour to diminish it gradually. On that account the
Noble Earl did not agree with those who in such circumstances
wished to augment the number of bishops. Good as that pro-
position per se might be, and even if the necessity of a
particular bishopric were made out, he yet could not adopt the
Bill, so long as there existed a more pressing evil within the
church establishment. He opposed the Bill, therefore, purely
on the ground on which he stood when he sought to improve
the efficiency of the church. But there was one other point
on which he wished to animadvert. The union of the two
sees was resisted by a Reverend Prelate, on the ground that
these sees were ancient. Now he begged to caution their
Lordships against a feeling, little other than superstitious, which
wof attached to things that had become consecrated by time,
and sacred ; a feeling which, if they should follow it,
might lead them to a conclusion which others had arrived at
in the same way, that there was but one true Church, and that
the Church of Rome, and that the Episcopal Church was
schismatical and altogether in error. He therefore opposed
the press nt Bill. "
Lord ELDON, in supporting the Bill, said he would regret
to preclude any party from bnefits which they would otherwise
have received ; ar.d if it did so, when the Bill went into com-
mittee, if Noble Lords allowed it to go there, be would not
resist any clause which might be inserted to preserve those
benefits for them. He- wished, however, that it should be
remarked hat the Noble Earl has: brought forward the Bill for
one object and one alone, disjoined from any larger views of
state affairs, with which he thought it ought not to be mixed up.
The Bishop of OXFORD begged their Lordships would
bear with him while he addressed them very briefly. He
wished to address them the more, after hearing the speech of
the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne), who had grounded his opposi-
tion on entirely different reasons than those asserted by him
on former occasions. The Noble Marquis sheltered himself
under the Commission, and yet he urged the withdrawal of the
revenues of the Bishops, and the application of them to the pa-
rochial clergy ; urging them, therefore, to do that which was
repugnant to the very spirit of the Commission. The Marquis
urged his opposition to the Bill from the constitution of the
Commission ; that in it were the Primate of all England, the
Primate of York, and the Bishop of London, whose character
and judgment gave it weight. But he (the Bishop of Oxford)
said they ought to look at the details ; one Pri-
mate was absent, another Primate would vote
in favour of the Bill, and the Bishop of London
had delivered a speech in support of tt. Thus,
those who had been against it, after deliberation, came round
and supported the opposite opinion; that fact, too, bore
against the argument that had been drawn from the recom.
mendation of the Commissioners in their report. The ques

tion, now being clear and open, was—should there never lie an
augmentation of English Bishops? He held an opinion di-
rectly opposite to those that had been expressed—that where a
great whole, a great institution needed reform of abuses, that
that could not be done by the expression of something merely
abstract, but that the amendment and reform must be attained
by immediately removing the abuses and evils. It had been
acknowledged that the founding of a see at Manchester was
necessary; he contended then that this was the duty of
their Lordships. As to the whole number of
Bishops, he referred their Lordships to the relative
numbers that were in France before and after the
Revolution ; in Spain and in Greece ; and to those members
which Latimer, and the early English Prelates, thought ought
to he in the kingdom of England ; which he ccnsidered answer
sufficient to some arguments that had been used against the
Bill. For the sake of the common truth which they held
together, he trusted their Lordships would concur in support-
ing the Bill of the Noble Earl. He begged to apologise for
having so long taken up their Lordships' attention.
The Earl of POWIS replied.
Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared—
For the Bill, content 3B
Not content ..

ALjority for the second reading .. —lO
The Marquis t f LANSDOWNE said that it was not hs in-
tention to give any further opposition to the measure, but to
leave the Noble Earl to take his own cow se. He did not,
however, alter the opinions which he entertained.
Their Lordships then adjourned at Half-past Ten.

HOUSE OF COIkfMONS, July 20.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

THE NEW MINISTRY.

Mr. C. BULLER. was introduced by Colonel Fox and
Captain Mangles, and took the oaths and his seat for
LiAkeard.
Colonel ANSON was introduced by Viscount
Ebrington and Mr. Tufnell, and took the oaths and his
seat for South Staffordshire.
Mr. O'CONNELL entered the House shortly after
four &Aka, and took his seat on the Ministerial benches.