The Sun.
London, England, 1846-02-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY

the political honour and consistency, which were not to be
found in any of the writings of political economists. If he
had delayed from taking a part in the debate, he was not pre.
vented by any doubts on the expediency of their repeal. It
was his fortune to go down into Warwickshire some days ago,
and he met a gentleman who was a large grazier in thee part
of the country. He met him galloping along the road at a
fearful pace. He (Lord Duncan) said to him, "My good
friend, where are you going ?" " Oh," said he, " you and
Sir Robert Peel have been a-ruining of us all.
I read the speech of Mr. Miles—he is the great
oracle of us agriculturists.—( Laughter.) He never
exaggerates, and he has been a-telling of us that in America
there are no less than 5,500,000 men employed in building an
ark, in which they will bring over immense quantities of
cows and cattle, in order to sell them in the Bristol market
—(Laughter)—and he says that American pork will be
three-halfpence a pound, while prime pork will be only two-
pence. Get out of the way, and let me rush into the market."
And he did go into the market, and he sold his cattle, which to
him was a serious loss. He ( Lord Duncan) met the same
agriculturist the other day, and he said to him, " Well, did
you sell all your corn in the market ?" He replied, "No, my
Lord, I did not." " Why, 1 thought (continued the Noble
Lord) that you would have followed the advice of your grew
oracle, the Member for Soniersetshire." To this he replied, "Oh,
Fee been gammoned by him before, and I'll never be gaiumoned
again."— ( Laughter. ) When the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Somerset made his prophecies formerly on this
subject, they had not been realised; and for his (Lord Dun-
can's) pas t he would prefer giving credence to the prophecies
of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite to those of the Hon. Gentle-
Marl. The Hon. Member for Sunderland proposed to meet
the public calamity by a public subscription. His arguments
surprised him • more than any other Hon. Gentleman who had
addressed the House. He ( Lord Duncan) was accustomed to
look upon :the Hon. Gentleman rather as an enemy of the
agricuttural interest—( Hear)—and if be expected any man ti
be a free-trader it was the Right Hon. Gentleman. —( Great
laughter.) He meant the Hon. Gentleman.—( Laughter.)
The Hon. Gentleman had said that about the year 1841 or
1842 there was a great commercial depression, and that during
the last year a new change had come over them. The
Honourable Member for Sunderland contended that the,
change had not been owing to the recent alteration in the
tariff, but to an over-production of corn in their own country.
Now, he was not aware that the price of foreign corn would
have any great influence on the English market. He found
upon inquiry that whenever foreign corn could be bought for
255. a quarter, that it cauld not be sold in this country for a
less price than the corn which was daily sold in the countri
markets. He might take the instance of Prussia or Poland,
and yet what were the results? Why no difficulty whatever,
notwithstanding the outcry had been experienced by the ma-
nufacturing population. And what was the thing understood
under the name of protection? Why that the consumer should
pay high prices for the necessaries of life ; and high prices
and high rents were accompanied by expensive outlays on the
part of the people. Such a system might do very well in times
of plenty, but in years of scarcity matters assumed a very dif
ferent aspect ; and an evidence Ind been given in the in-
stance of the potato crop, of which so much had been said.
High prices were no benefit to the labourer. The labourer's
wages depended on the great cause of supply and demand, and
if the demand for labour was to increase in this country, we
need not be apprehensive that the proposed measure would
materially interfere with them. The rate of wages in England
was lower than the rate in America, but in order to have high
wages there must be high profits. The efflux of capital
caused a competition and a decreased rate of wages, and when
that was the case the labourer gradually reduced his food until
at length he was brought to the lowest ebb of subsistence;
and when such a state of things occurred some interference
was necessary. During the last century the landed proprie-
tors had kept up the price of corn by artificial means. In the
years Ib7o and 1690 the price was attempted to be kept up by
passing en Act to cause the exportation of corn. The preamble
of the Act stated that it was expedient to export the native
corn, as it kept up the price to the benefit of the landowners.
That was done on the pretence of encouraging agriculture, but
it was in reality to increase the price of corn. Fortunately
this country, in the year 1790, became an importing country,
and the object of the Act was partially defeated. The pro-
hibitory Act of 1815 had been frequently referred to in the
course of the debate. It was in order to afford protec-
tion to the farmers. He would, with their permission,
quote the words of- Mr. Robinson on the subject.
Were they the aristocracy of the land, when the country was
asking to be led on against foreign competition, to hold back?
Such aright be the opinion of the landlords of Buckinghamshire
and Sussex, such might be the opinion of lion. Members
opposite; but he was proud and happy to say that the landlords
in that part of the country with which he was connected were
ready and willing to assist the people in this laudable object.
He stood there as an independent Member, not to explain any.
thing he might have said in or out of that House, to vin-
dicate a pledge which he had given on the hustings, and one
which he hoped had been given by other lion. Members—to
support those measures which he believed would he beneficial
to the country. Believing that this would be the effect of the
measure brought forward by her Majesty's Government—be-
lieving that it would tend to promote and advance the manu-
factures of the country—believing, too, that that interest would
not be promoted without benefiting agriculture, he far one
should give to the measure his honest and humble support.
Mr. G. HUDSON said he wished in the strongest terms
the rules of the House would allow him to use to contradict the
assertion of the Noble Lord, that in the observation he made
the other evening he meant to treat lightly with the distress of
Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Having explained thus much, he
wished to state that what he did say was, that he thought it
was the duty of Government immediately to provide for the
distress of Ireland, and that he should be ready to give his
support to any measure that might be brought forward for that
purpose.—( Cheers. )
Lord DUNCAN said he was delighted to hear that the
Hon. Gentleman was ready to support any measure which
might be brought forward by her Alajesty'e Government bene-
ficial to Ireland. But— (Loud cries of " Order, order," in the
midst of which the Noble Lord resumed his seat).
Jr. THONIPSON said he was ready to confess that this
debate had been sufficiently lengthened by Hon. Members,
but he hoped that the House would permit him to state the
grounds on which he would vote upon this question. —( Hear,
hear.) He claimed that indulgence particularly from the
circumstance of his having held a seat in that House for more
than 26 years—(llear, hear)—during which period he had not
been an indifferent observer of those changes which had been
made from time to time in reference to the cause of the reduc-

Lion of duties upon foreign produce.—( Hear, hear.) He gave
his support to the extensive measure which had been intro-
duced by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's
Government, in the year 1842, for the reduction of those
duties. To a portion of that measure he certainly did
object, but as a whole he gave it his support.
The reason why he objected to a portion of that
measure was because he believed that, whilst there was a
large sacrifice made, there was no corresponding advantage.
—( Hear.) But since that period another very important
change had taken place—he meant in reference to the banking:
system in England. That House had limited the issues of
the Bank of England as well as the circulation of country
notes.—( Hear, hear.) It was true that hitherto no inconve-
nience had been felt, but it must be borne in mind that the
times had been peculiarly favourable.—( Hear.) If the mea-
sures now proposed should be adopted, and if their importations
did not exceed their exports, he believed that great injury
would result to the country—its fact, he believed that no
greater injury could befal it. And was there no alarm of
that being the case ? The Right Hen. Baronet hail can-
didly and fairly stated that he could not hold out any expecta-
tion to the country that the foreign importers would immediately
adopt a more liberal commercial system with respect to this
country.— ( Hear, hear.) Those reasons amongst others had
induced him not to vote for any further measures which had
as their object the freedom of trade. —( Hear, hear.) He
voted with the Rieht Ho,. Baronet in the fear 1842; but
the House would remember that the years anterior to 1842
were marked by great distress. Such was the state of the
country in 1842. There had been immense sums annually
spent in the construction of railways. The Right lion. Baronet
claimed the support of the House in consequence of the partial
failure of the potato crop, and the bad quality of those that re-
mained. There could he no question that the potato crop in
Ireland had failed to a great extent, but he was equally sure
that every relief would be afforded that it was in the power
of the House to give. Could there be any:stronger proof of this
than that even in the short time that House had sat Bills to the
amount of half a million had been passed to give employment
to the people? Wheat and Baur were now falling in price,
and he, therefore, did not think the measure of
the Government was required. But, suppose there had
been good grounds of alarm, why the Government
ought to have taken the responsibility on themselves. The
Right Hon. Baronet had alluded to what had taken place in
the last century about the opening of the ports, but he omitted
to mention the ease of 1826. At that time the ports were
opened for the importation of oats, barley, and other articles
of consumption, and no difficulty was found in the Govern-
ment of that day getting an Act of indemnity, although pro-
tection was much higher than at present ; but the importation
differed between 1826 and the present time—there was
then no Anti-Corn-law League, that unconstitutional
body which was seeking to do away with the agricultural body,
but which, he believed, did not represent popular feeling:
It was said that now there was a perfect understanding be-
tween the manufacturers and the labouring classes. He
would on that point remind the House of the great alteration.
in tone and manner evinced by the League since it was first
established. He recollected that three or four years ago the
great argument used by Anti-Corn-law manufacturers was,
that it wasquite impossible to compete with Switzerland, if they
paid the present rate of wages. They then made a contrast of
the great difference between the wages paid in Lancashire and
Switzerland, and maintained that unless wages were
reduced they would be compelled to remove their capital and ma-
chinery to foreign countries. He, therefore, contended that it was
a delusion to t 1 e people to maintain wages at the present rate,
if a reduction took place in the price of food. He believed
that there never was a period in the history of this country in
which the master manufacturers had made such large profits,
and in which the labourers were better paid. Within the last
few years wages had increased full 30 per cent. Mr. Tidil
Pratt had lately published an account of the savings' banks,
from which it appeared, in 1841, there were in the United
Kingdom 811,205 depositors, representing a capital of
24,475,085/. Three years after, in 1844, the number of depo-
sitors had increased to 1,012,000, representing a capital of
31,275,6351.. and the average sum for each depositor was
27/. 18s. This amount proved that the country was in a most
pro,perous state. In the agricultural districts the deposits of
each person averaged 281. ; in the manufacturing districts the
average was 301. With such a state of things, why should
there be 60 great a change in the Right Hon. Baronet? It was
said that to buy in the cheapest and sell in the dearest markets
was the policy to be pursued ; but he was of opinion that pro-
tection was necessary to the agricultural interests of the coun-
try to enable them to supply any market. If the corn-law s
were to be repealed, why not repeal the navigation laws ?
Why should not the farmers be allowed to bring their corn to
market in those ships which would bring it at the cheapest rate ?
He, therefore, could not bring his mind to vote in favour of
this question. He would like to know what statesman in either
Europe .or America, had ever advocated free trade.—
( Hear, hear.) He would like to know in what country of
Europe or America free trade existed. —( Hear.) He was
ready to admit that, he signed the petition of 1815.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) But still he would like to have an ans-
wer to his question. Certainly Mr. Webster did not do so,
and he was as clever a statesman and as talented a man as he
had ever heard of. He would now read an extract from a
speech delivered by Mr. Webster at Boston in 1845 ;
.but be-
fore he did so, let him remind the House that America had
been going on increasing its tariff for several years from 30 to
40, and 50, and even 100 per cent., and no country had made
such rapid strides to prosperity as America.—( Hear, hear. )
[The Honourable Member then proceeded to read the
extract from the speech, which contained an argu-
merit to show that prosperity reigned
in America,
and that this result was attributable to the protection laws.]
The Hon. Gentleman having concluded reading the document,
observed that he would not trouble the House with any further
remarks on that part of the subject. 'The Right Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Government, on a recent occasion, asked
Hon. Gentlemen who sat about him (Mr. Ald. Thompson)
whether- they were prepared to retrace their steps with respect
to our commercial policy, or whether they intended to remain
still or to go forwards? As far as his own opinions, as a single
individual were concerned, he certainly was not disposed either
to go back or to remain still. He was inclined to go forward,
but at the same time he was not able to go along with the Right
Hon. Baronet in the path he had chosen. 'I he Right Hon.
Baronet had stated that the rental of the land in this
ountry in 1815 was estimated at thirty. two millions,

and in 1842 it was reckoned at seventy millions, and the Right
[lon. Gentleman had endeavoured to infer that the value of
rents in 1842 was higher than in 1815 by a difference amount-
ing to 15 per cent.—(hear.) He (Mr. Alderman Thompson)
believed that since 1815 land which had lain waste had been
inclosed and improved to the extent of about 15 per cent. upon
i;s ancient value, and at a fallen price.—( Hear.) Did the
Richt Hon. Baronet mean to contend that thirty millions, the
difference of increase, had been employed between 1815 and 1842
without any interest having been received on so large a
capital, and that it was included in an additional revenue of
five millions? If these items were put together, it would not
appear that the Right Hon. Baronet had made out his case
with respect to the difference of increase. The argument
which the Right Hon. Baronet wished to prove was, that rents
had advanced between the years 1815 and 1842. He (Mr.
Alderman Thompson) had endeavoured to show that that
argument was fallacious, and whether he had succeeded or nor
would be for the House to consider. The Hon. Membet
for Manchester had asked why the corn trade should
not be free ?—why the British merchant should be restrained
from embarking in that trade? He would contend that the
corn trade was a free trade, nay, it was more than free, it was
protected, and had always been unembarrassed. —( Hear, hear.)
she Honourable Gentleman had also expressed a wish to know
how it was that land had obtained as high a price now as it had
formerly obtained? He (Mr. Alderman Thompson) hail
made numerous inquiries in various quarters, and had found
hat recently no large estate whatever had been said at any
time, because of the diffisulty of finding a purchaser.—
( Hear, hear.) Perhaps some Honourable Gentleman
in the other side of the House would inform him
whether or not such was the case. Although he could
not support the present measure, he was free to confess
that all his predilections were in favour of the manufacturer.
—( Loud cheers from the free-traders.) At a very early pe-
riod accident has placed him at the head of a very large este-
alishnient in a manufacturing town, and consequently he was
more interested in commerce and manufactures than in land.
he Right Hon. Gentleman had a right to expect to hear from
him, as he was not disposed to stand still, what were his
views. He would advance whenever he saw an opportunity
which opened any improvement in the social condition of the
,eople.—( Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had been most
successful in his financial operations, and possessed a surplus
revenue of between three and four millions. In lieu of the
imposed alteration in the corn-laws, he (Mr. Alderman
Thompson) should advise that the duty upon an article of very
general consumption, viz., upon tea, should be reduced. A
urge proportion of the labouring classes engaged in manufac-
tures were consumers of tea and sugar to a great extent, and
if the Right Hon. Gentleman had reduced the duty upon tea
.0 sixpence per pound, and the duty on sugar to one penny
per pound, he would not only have increased the revenue, but
would have bestowed at the same time a very great boon on
the labouring classes. The duty upon tea amounts to
from 150 to 250 per cent., and the people of this country
expend nine millions of money for their tea. This expen-
diture may be classified in the following manner, viz.—
four millions are paid to Government for duty, two millions
are expended ha freight, dock charges, profits to importer and
retailer, and about two millions are paid to the Chinese people.
The state of our commercial policy with this nation is the
most miserable in the w orld. China is the only country that
will admit articles of British manufacture at an ad valorem
duty of 5 per cent., and he believed the whole trade of this
country was limited to receiving tea in return. The American
' 'rade with China was conducted on adifferent principle. Eng-
land imported upwards of sixty million pounds of tea
from China, while America, which was the next largest
importing country, imported twenty millions, and the
troy which was imposed on that quantity (lid not amount
o one per cent. He would ask why a duty of 100 to 250 per
cent. was imposed by this country on tea, while the Chinese
ulinitted British manufactures at five per cent., and while the
Americans allowed tea to be imported into their country at a
mere nominal duty? His opinion was that our trade with
China was in a most dangerous position, and required
the moat stringent measures to be immediately adopted
o prevent any disastrous consequences. He wished to express
this opinion with all due deference. The Right Hon Baronet
had proposed a reduction in the article of tobacco. With
respect to that article, according to a return which was made
for that Honse in the year 1844, it appeared that 955 persons
had been convicted of smuggling tobacco, an article of a value
not exceeding 4d. per pound, and had actually been submitted
,o an imprisonment of two months, and in some cases to a con-
siderably greater extent. t The Hon. Gentleman having briefly
alluded to a reduction of duty on soap, expressed a
hope that nothing he had said would give offence to the
Right lion. Baronet. He could assure the Right Hon.
Baronet that no man more highly respected him fa- his
talents, and that a strict sense of duty had compelled him to
oppose him on this occasion. During the long period he had
sat in that House, he had in general given the Right Hon.
Baronet his humble support. He deeply regretted that he
could not do so now. He had given no pledge, and was under
no engagement to his constituency further than that in 1841
he promised his general support to the Government, and it
was his intention to have continued it, could he have done so
in conformity with his avowed opinions.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the objections which the
Hon. Gentleman had taken to the measure were, that its
effects would be disastrous to the labouring classes ; and he
went through a series of returns, showing that the condition of
the labouring classes for the last few years had been consider-
ably affected—that when prices were low wages were also low,
rod that when wages were high so also were prices. Imme-
diately previous to the dissolution of the last Parliament
he (Sir William Molesworth ) had given notice of motion
to • inquire into the differences of the prices of
food and - the wages of labour. From the returns then
made he found that the wages of labour, especially of skilled
tabour, were generally higher when prices were low and when
food was cheap. When food was cheap the labouring classes
axpended a larger proportion of their earnings in articles of
dress and similar manufactures. This caused a greater demand,
and consequently there occurred a greater increase, in manufac-
tures and the other branches of trade. On the contrary,
when food was dear, the labouring classes were neces-
sarily compelled to diminish their purchases of articles
of clothing.—(Hear, hear.) In consequence of the dimi-
nution of the demand, large stocks accumulated on the
hands of the traders. Manufacturers would decrease their
employment of labour, and the wages must necessarily fall.
It appeared to him that there was no connexion between low
and high prices and wages—but the amount of the wages of
labour seemed to consist in the demand for it, in the increased
or diminished supply of manufactures. The Hon. Gentleman
having alluded to the fears of the protectionists of the effects
of the proposed measure, observed that no fitting or more
',roper opportunity could be found than the present for the
total repeal of • tke corn-laws. It had been said that thin
was not a landlord's question. It appeared to him that
if free trade made any difference in the price of land
generally, it would be the landlord and not the tenant who
would suffer. But he anticipated no such bad results from the
measure. Both landlords and tenants would even-
tually be benefited by the cessation of protection.
He admitted, with Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that small
farmers without skill and capital would be greatly injured by
free trade, but they might depend upon it that the advance
of time and improvements in agriculture and manufactures
would tend to annihilate, without the aid of free trade,
the class of farmers, in whose behalf the Hon. Member for
Somersetshire had made so touching an appeal. For it had
been discovered—indeed, it was a well-ascertained fact—that
with the aid of capital and science production bath in agricul-
ture and manufactures could he carried on with greater ad-
vant ge than without them. But it might be imagined that
the application of capital and science to the cultivation of
the land would tend to annihilate the unskilled and
needy farmer, and to diminish the demand for
labour. This was, however, a mistake, for in proportion
to the increase of capital applied to land, the demand for
labour became enhanced ; and it was a well-known fact that
if the whole of the land of this country were cultivated, it
would be more than sufficient to supply the wants of a larger
population than our own, and at a price, too, almost as low as
that of any other country in the world. What, then, might
be asked, was to become of the man without skill and capital ?
for it would be imagined, and properly too, that the man with
capital and skill would be enabled to undersell the man who
had not those qualities at his command. Why, this—the man
without skill and capital must abandon his speculation in
farming ; because if they were to give him an artificial pro-
tection, it would stop the accumulation of capital in the
country and retard the progress of improvement. He came
now to another branch of the subject, namely, the value of
land, and, as a landlord himself, he could state that the profits
produced from the land had never been higher than they were
at the present moment. But he denied that this result had been
caused by protection; and in support of this statement, he would
just see w hat was the correct principle of ascertaining the value
of land. A piece of land, comparatively speaking barren, might
be of more value than another piece of land when comparatively
speaking fertile—but this anomalous proposition brought him
to the true test of the value of land. The value of land was
decided not so much by its fertility as the amount of its sur-
rounding population ; and when he considered the vast in-
crease that was taking place in the manufactures of the country,
and the increasing demand which was every day becoming
more apparent for labour, he could not help thinking that the
fears of Hon. Members opposite, and the landed gentry seve-
rally, on the subject of this measure, were quite unfounded.
Why, the manufacturing population of this country was accu-
mulating every day ; and to meet the demands for food for this
increase, science and capital was being applied with greater
vigour than ever to land, thus showing that the value of land
depended upon the amount of population, and that rents in-
creased in proportion to the proaperity of manufactures. A
great revolution was about to take place in the country. Com-
merce was prosperous, and before long railroads would inter-
sect every part of England. The resources of the country by
this means would daily become more developed, and agricul-
turalask if these
districtsdwpooupludlobeesbtorowungsh.t asv iotww,ehree inwtooocldlose.cohnexion
with large an
circumstances would not advance, rather than retard, the in-
terests of the landowners? To whom then would they be in-
debted for these increased advantages?—not tothe capital of the
landed interest, but to the accumulation of manufacturers.
He had already shown that freedom of trade would still
further promote the advance of manufacturing ingenuity ;
eanoldtohreisthotroeudrishheedhawdheshoowmnaothoafat
c tther e sinterest
aof thestaategroi-f
prosperity. For these reasons, if there could be no better, he
should deem it his duty to give his cordial support to the
motion of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. BENNETT would throw aside all feeling of animosity
against either the Government or the Hon. Baronet opposite,
and in the opposition he should give to the measure before the
House, he disclaimed being actuated by any party spirit. He
bad always supported tie Right Hon. Baronet as a disinte-
rested individual not connected with any party, and therefore
he was at liberty to say, that the Right Hon. Baronet, having
changed his sentiments, had acted most honourably in chang-
ing his conduet. For his own part, however, he still enter-
tained the same opinions upon this subject as he did thirty
years ago. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State
for the Home Department had expressed his opinion
that the object of political economy was to diffuse
the greatest amount of happiness amongst the largest number
of people. He perfectly agreed with this opinion, and the
question for him to consider was, would there be as much hap-
piness in the country without as there was with protection?
It was supposed, or rather he should imagine so, the cheapness
of food afforded the greatest amount of happiness to the largest
number of people; but he would warn the Government to
take care that they did not, in cheapening food, commit the
error of creating more severe distress than at present existed
in the country. It was admitted on all hands, he believed, that
wages depended upon the proportion of the demand to its sup-
ply, and the Government would do well to consider whether,
by their present course of action, they would not lessen the
demand without lessening the supply. Now, he main-
tained that every quarter of wheat brought into this
country from a foreign nation would reduce the demand
for labour, and he was, consequently, strongly opposed
to the removal of restrictions placed on the
importation of corn. If they removed protection, he was con-
vinced that a great proportion of the land of this country
would be thrown out of cultivation ; and when they considered
that an acre of arable land was equal to four weeks' labour,
an acre of meadow land to two weeks, and an acre of pasture
to one week, he asked, could this measure do otherwise than re-
duce the demand for labour without diminishing the supply ?
The labourer might suffer most grievously, but what cared the
manufacturer? he made his 200,0001. in two years.—(Hear,
hear.) For his own part, he had advocated the property-tax
many years ago ; he did not ask for the repeal of the malt-
- tax or any other tax. He was ready to vote that the taxes of
the country should be paid by the rich ; to tax the poor was, in
his opinion, an injustice.—(Cheers.) If that was the last time
, he should have it in his power to address that House,