The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-17 00:00:00

After that prorate, he (Lord Stanley) naturally concluded
that the ISoble Lord W 3.4 about to direct his atten•
tion strictly -and exclusively to the speech of his
Noble Friend, but he had listened with the deepest attention,
and he might venture to say, that " not the whole. nor the
greater part, nor the major part, nor a considerable part, nor a
large portion, nor, indeed, any portion whatever, had been
directed to the question at issue."—(Laughter.) The Noble
Lord began by regretting that one like himself, not in the
prime of life, had to deal with the question ; but he ( Lord
Stanley) considered that the Noble Lord had done himself in-
justice. Indeed, he reminded him of a line in Milton :
" Anon, a smiling cherub he appears,
•

So well he feigned."
But not to delay their Lordships longer, he would say, that
if they were not empowered to make an amendment,
it was useless for them to have the Bill before them, and he
considered that it was no infringement upon their Lordships'
privileges to say that they could not alter the Bill without re-
jecting it altogether. To say that they had no voice in the
settlement of the measure, because the alteration of a single
clause was fatal to a money Bill, was not treating their Lord-
ships fairly. What was the use of having the measure before
them, if they could not modify it when they considered it ne-
cessary, and especially when it so much affected their own in-
dividual interests ? When the Government proposed; on a Lew
resolution of the House of Commons, to suspend the opera-
tion of the present corn-laws, a remonstrance having been
made on the impropriety of such a course without consulting
their Lordships, the Government acquiesced in it. His Noble
and Learned Fr.end alluded to the Reform Bill, but he had
forgotten the circumstances that attended it, though he was
then one of the Government. The Reform Bill was lost, for
it was carried by a majority of 1, and the Government thought
it right to appeal to the country. It was not thought in those
days either inexpedient or unconstitutional to refer to the
sense of the country—(Hear, hear)—and the country did main-
tain the Government. The Bill was sent up to their Lord-
ships, and they made an amendment in it which was fatal 'o it.
A new Bill was then sent up, and their Lordships ultimately
agreed to it. Now, he did not see what parallel
there could be drawn between the two cases.
And another precedent of the Noble Lord had failed him.
His Noble Friend went on to say that the price might be in-
creased ss. and more than ss. in the event of a fixed duty being
imposed to that amount. He (Lord Stanley) did not un-
derstand that argument. He could not understand how the
Noble Lord could state that a duty of ss. would increase the
price of corn more than ss.—( Hear, hear.) He would new
allude to the conclusion of his address, where he referred to cer-
tain combinations against this Bill. These combinations
and coalitions he entirely disbelieved, and so far as the party
`with whom he acted was concerned, he absolutely repudiated
and denied their existence. He agreed, however, with the
Noble Earl, who sat down before the Noble Lord, that the
measure was supported by a strange combination of parties in
both Houses—a majority of whom he sincerely be-
lieved disapproved of the measure, and he agreed
also in the discretion of the Noble Earl who said
that he would risk his chance of going to an election
on this measure.—( Hear, hear.) He agreed with him also in
thinking that the Government would have a strong disinclina-
tion to exercise a similar discretion.—( Loud cheers.) They
rested their case upon ream', justice, and upon public opinion,
and they would not be deterred from canvassing its merits from
any apprehension they might entertain of the fate of the sugar
daties, the Coercion Bill, or any worse chance of defeat to
which the Government might be subjected.—( Loud cheers. )
Re supposed they should be overpowered, but if they should be
they would place before the country their case, and also
place before it the admissions made by two Noble Lords
on the other side—that but for the fortuitous combination
of parties this Bill would never have been brought forward.
His Noble and Learned Friend said that Government would
not resign. That appearded to him ( Lord Stanley) a very
strange assertion of the Noble Lord. His Noble Friend, how-
ever, spoke like a man who thought the Government were
strongly settled in power ; but though he did not doubt the since-
rity of the Noble Lord he had very serious doubts whether his
anticipations would be realised, and if they were not he did not
think the country would suffer by the change.—(Loud cheers. )
He would now state the reasons why he supported the
principle of the fixed duty, though he did not altogether ap-
prove of it. At an early period of his life he had expressed an
Opinion in favour of a fixed duty, but in consequence of the
h'emmunications he at that time had with Mr. Huskisson,
be had been persuaded by that Gentleman to adopt the
principle of the sliding-scale, and his experience
had since enabled him to say that the change had been a good
?Ile- The sliding-scale was productive of good to the producer
in times of abundance, and to the consumer in times of scarcity;
and if he were now called upon to choose a measure of protec-
tion, he would infinitely prefer the sliding-scale to the fixed
duty. If the amendment now proposed had been brought
forward at an earlier stage of the Bill, holding the opinions he
did Upon a fixed duty, he would have opposed it ; but, under
Present circumstances, he should support it. Their Lordships
oad rejected a proposition for a sliding-scale, and they
Were now called upon to vote for a fixed duty. Under these
jeircumstances, therefore he should vote for the latter.
In n addition, however, to its other advantages, in point o f
revenue a fixed duty was not to be overlooked. He agreed
With the Noble Lord, who stated that danger was to be appre-
hended in charging the principle of indirect to direct taxation.
If they were to go on reducing) their surplus revenue, and
sacrifice it year after year, and with a view of making reduc-
tions on the present duties, that danger would be inevitable,
and the consequence would be that instead of a three years'
income tax of the present amount, they would have an increased
And a perpetual one. He warned them, therefore, against the
dangerous nature of the present measure. They did not know
Who the Government might be at the expiration of •
three years, and notwithstanding the assurance of
the Noble Lord, he doubted very much whether
the present Government would occupy that position.
Theyll might have an entire new Parliament, and hefore this
,"'""„ came into operation there might also be a new Govern-
7cen,t• Why not wait till that period—the right of the people
"' tnis country demanded it—and if ever there was a right
Most dear to the people, it was a right to be consulted on a
question of this maenitude. They had a right to a voice on
such a measure, and if they had at all a right to be appealed
to now was the time. —( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
-He agreed with the arguments of the Noble Lord on
the cross-benches, that this measure would never have
been brought forward but for the combination of
parties alien to the principles of the party who proposed the
measure, and who first brought it forward for other motives
than that of passing it into a law.—( Cheers. )
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE hoped that the House '
would soon be delivered from the present discussion, and '
proceed with other important business. The •Neble and
Learned Lord had addressed their Lordships that night in '
language peculiar to himself on the chimerical fears of those
whe opposed this measure, but the Noble and Learned Lord
had chimeras of his own. ( Hear, hear, and laughter. )
He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had not sought his
information from the same channels as his Noble
and Learned Friend. His Noble Friend had stated that a
meeting was called in a private house with regard to this Bill
and for the purpose of adopting measures by a coalition
of parties for the defeat of the Ministry ; and, of course, for
t.be purpose of also dfeating the question before the House. '
'eve. he could say that the meeting at that private house was
not in any way connected with the present question—it was
connected with the Coercion Bill.—(Hear, hear.) The sub-
ject entertained at that meeting was to agree not to protract
the discussion upon the Coercion Bill ; and he would not allow
his Noble Friend, at whose house that meeting was held, to be
Tie subject of misrepresentation with regard to that meeting.
e entirely agreed with the arguments of his Noble Friend,
the late Secretary for the Colonies, on many points. He
Would adhere to the course which he had always expressed,
and which he thought the proper course to take on any
great question—namely, that that which would confer the
greatest amount of benefit on the people Ras that which
should be adopted with respect to the present question. He
"nsideredt hat the final settlement of the measure was of per..
be importance.—(Hear, hear.) It was one which should
le Placed on such a basis as would leave no room for a
luture cause of complaint. He had never supported anything
like a fixed duty in any other sense than as a fixed duty
or the purposes of revenue. His Noble and learned Friend
in 1825 opposed the sliding-scale ; he said he cared not
for that scale, he cared not for it at all, and he wanted
none of it. He thought at that time that a low fixed duty
must be desirable for a revenue, but now he objected to that
course.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord who spoke
last, and the Noble Earl on the cross-benches, said
that they proposed to adopt the child of
those who supported the measure. Now it was
well known that if they were to adopt that child, and that it
were to fall into the tender mercies of the Noble Lords, it
would, under their nurture, be found that in less than six
months it would cease to have existence at all. The Noble
Lords would adopt that child for the purpose of repeating the
present measure, for if the amendment before the House
should be adopted there would be a chance of altogether
throwing out the Bill, and reit there would be a chance of a
dissolution of Parliament.—( Hear, bear.) He was ready
to make sacrifices for the ,purpose of settling the question.
He would prophecy that after the lapse of a few years the
question would not be left in the position it now was, for it
would not be possible to raise any discussion on it then, if,
its effects would be such as he expected If, how-
ever, the effects would not be such, and the
landed interest
was seriously affected, then be believed there would be no
difficulty in inducing the Legislature to reconsider the question,
20 as to effect an alteration favourable to the agricultural in-
terests. He supported the Bill, not because he thought it
would cause a great or sudden depreciation in the price of food,
but because it would operate to prevent any great rise
in the
price of that article. —( Hear.) He for one had no fear of any sud-
den importations of foreign grain taking place, such as to disturb
to any extent the markets ot this
asstcount They had Ireland
lying by them, with cheap labour, so inundate them with
produce reduced in value, and yet that had not taken place.
en Ireland they had 1,100,000 cultivators of the land, which
raised about fourteen millions in value yearly, while in this
country there was a less number of agriculturists, anti yet they
raised the produce to the amount of thirty-four millions, so
that five Irish labourers did not produce more than two Eng-
lish ones. There was, therefore, no danger from Ireland ; and
if there was cone from that quarter, they need not apprehend
any from countries that were much more distant.—( Hear.) On
these grounds he must support the Bill before the House, and
resist the amendment proposed by the Noble Earl ( Wicklow ).
Lord BROUGHAM rose to explain. When such personal
allusions were made as had been by the Noble Marquis who had
just sat down, he felt it his duty to occupy the House a short
time in explanation. The Noble Marquis greatly misappre-
hended him if he thought thaTthheel(iLord Brougham) meant to
cast any reflection on him.
he (Lord Brougham) had obtained oble Marquis had said that
information of
passed irs private habitations in
aa surreptitious mwahnantehr—ad
that he had derived it in Secretu
ht
oandu publishing u jnusswt
whatiefir
able way. To that statement
gasb,
ld
had passed in private dwellin
what if there were reporters at the rrivate meeting re-
tecr
the length
and that
molrength of
ferred to, or, if not reporters, at least
actually a report of the meeting appeared,
half a column, in a newspaper, on Mende
(Hear.) He at least had read a report of that length, setting
forth what had passed at the meeting, and the parties vehoetwtin"
present at the meeting. It might have been improper to reportere
the proceedings, or the report might have been incorrect, still
there was no doubt of its having appeared. A friend came to
him with the report, and expressed great alarm at the de-
cision, only he stated that it was privately determined to
delay the Coercion Bill as much as possible in the House of
Commons till the Corn Bill was secure.—(Hear, hear. )
He had seen two others who gave another version
of the proceecing, but who admitted something was kept
back from the published report, and that the feeling of those
present at the meeting was, that though no resolution was
agreed to, they would take care that the Coercion Bill debate
should not c.ose till the Corn Bill was safe through the House
of Lords. Such was the information, which was not ferreted
out of a tri tate dwelling, but was to be met with at the club,
houses, au I every other public place of political resort.—
(Cries of ".ilivide, divide.") If they would persist in crying
out to interrupt him, he should move the adjournment of the
House, and speak on the motion then. His object was
to set himself right with the House on the subject;
He must detain their Lordships a few minutes longer. He did
complain that there was two hours' debate, and that during the
whole of that time they had spoken so wide of the subject before
them, but he was much more surprised at the very serious
charge which the Noble Lord had made against him, and
which, if he did not explain or retract, he ( Lord Brougham )
should most indignantly repel, cast from him, and repudiate
the insinuation with which the Noble Lord closed his remarks.
He (Lord Brougham) did state that he believed the present