The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-07 00:00:00

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he would early I now vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend.—(Hear, hear.) .
next wet k state to the House the remedies I But even in the present session the Noble Lord had intro-
which he thought ought to be applied to duced a Bill which was to be applied to Ireland, giving the
this subject. He thought with respect to the present ease right to vote to every tenant-at-will rated at h/., and he did
the Committee had left the House in rather an unsatis-
not see what particular virtue there was in a 10/. qualifica-
tion ire England, if there was to be an 8/. qualification ex-
factory proition. He could not vote for the issuing of the 1 tended to in Ireland. His Hon. Friend the
writ for Leicester as the case at present stood. He Member for
Buckinghamshire had
i gone very fully into this
should certainly include the borough of Leicester in the question of the franchise, and had told them that he looked
measure he should submit to the House next week. on the suffrage not as a trust, or a right, but as a privilege.
Mr. FRE WEN believed that it was the wish of the He (Mr. Osborne) begged to differ front his Hon. Friend in
respectable inhabitants of Leicester that inquiry should that view, and to tell him that the voters themselves, in half
take place into the charges of bribery that had taken the small boroughs, looked upon the suffrage not as a trust,
place there, and he should, therefore, vote against the or as a right, or as a privilege, but as a perquisite. He believed
issuing of the writ. that the horror of bribery which was professed in that House
was not sincere, as he did not think there were twenty Mem-
Mr. STAFFORD had found out that there was no- was
in the House who did not pay pretty smartly, and did
thing like persevering in that House, both in season otdraw considerable bills on their bankers, on account of
and out of season, to obtain au object. He was r seats—(Hear, hear)—and if the Noble Lord and his
determined that the Government should take up party were sincere in their horror of bribery, he wished that
the subject. (Hear, Wear.) The Noble Lord at they would strike at the fountain head.—(Hear, hear.) In '
the head of the Government had stated that the a book written by a certain distinguished Whig Lord, this
Government had taken up the subject—( Hear, hear) custom was spoken of as " a countervailing expediency to
—his object was therefore answered, and ho should the landed interest."—(Laughter.) The first case of bribery
not persevere in his motion.—(dear, hear.) brought before the House was in 1571; and he was sorry
The motion was then withdrawn. that lie did not see the Hon. Member for Westbury in his
NATIONAL REPRESENTATION—ADJOURNED DE- place, as he could tell him that that borough had the dis-
BATE. tinctior. of being the locality complained against on that
On the motion for reading the order of the day for resum-
occasion.—(Laughter.) From that period to the present
ing the adjourned debate on Mr. Hume's motion,
bribery at elections had been constantly before the public,
Mr. HUME presented twenty petitions from various loca-
until people believed in the truth of what a British satirist
lities in favour of his motion. had written sixty years ago—
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said that he had also a peti- " Those who would seek to gain the votes of British tribes,
"
Lion to present in favour of Parliamentary reform, but the pe-
Must add to force of merit force of bribes.
titioners did not concur in the motion of the Hon. Member —( Laughter.) Then with respect to the electoral districts,
Bon, Gentlemen were really not aware of the monstrous
for Montrose. They stated that they were happy to hear
that her Majesty's principal advisers concurred with them as inequality of the present system. He would take the dis-
to the superiority of universal suffrage over household ant-
tricts of Kensington, Chelsea, Hammersmith, Fulham, and
frage, and of annual Parliaments over triennial Parliaments. Chiswick, occupying fourteen square miles, having a rate-
Mr. PEARSON presented a petition from South Lambeth
able value of 484,000/., and a population of 110,000 persona,
and with 18,4,45 registered voters, and yet that district was
in favour of Mr. Hume's motion, and similar petitions from
Camberwell and Manchester.
without a representative, while such places as Caine, Mid-
Sir NVIII. CLAY presented three petitions from the Tower burst, Harwich, and other small boroughs, were allowed to
Hamlets to the same effect. send Members to that House, for there were Hon. Gentlemen
The order of the day was then read. to be found who were not too respectable to sit even for such
Mr. HUME wished to be allowed to make one remark. a borough as Harwich.—(Laughter.) His Hon. Friend had
It was to express a hope that the House would come to a favoured them with a great number of statistics on this part
of the subject. He had shown that Glasgow was entitled to
division on the motion that night, and that Hon. Gentlemen
would regulate the length of their speeches with a view to seven representatives—God defend them from seven Macgre-
that result.—(Hear, hear, and cries of " Divide.") gors in Parliament I—(Loud laughter, and cries of " Order.)
Well, from seven alembers from Glasgow.— (Laughter.)
Mr. OSBORNE said that the Hon. Member for North- Having mentioned that Hon. Gentleman's name, he begged
amptonshire had concluded the motion which he had intro- to say that he sincerely believed him to be among the most
duced to their notice by a series of grammatic readings, with distinguished Members of that House.—(Hear, hear.) On
the remark that perseverance was a great quality in a Mem- the same principle that his Hon. Friend the Member for
bur of that House; but there was another quality still more Bucks (Mr. Disraeli) had defended the present system of
resentation, the system of Gatton and old Sarum must b
necessary, and that was patience, and that, he hoped the rdeepfended. He had the honour of sitting in the last Parr e
House would extend to him for a very brief period. When ment for a place in the county of Bucks, and he knew as wella
he had moved the adjournment of this debate on a former as could be that all the boroughs in that county were in-
evening, he suspected that the cause of the debate being put flueneed more or less by local proprietors. But was the
off for so long a period was not because the sugar duties had division of the representation anything like equal? Bucks,
expired, and the result proved that he was right. He be-
for instance, was rated at 674,0001., and it sent eleven Blem-
g
lieved that his Right Honourable Friend had yielded to tiers ; Middlesex was rated at 7,223,400/., and it sent fourteen
nothing but the necessity of the occasion. The House could Member,. According to this division, property was not re-
not forget the three very remarkable speeches by
which the presented in that House.—(Hear, hear.) The next point he
arrived at was the protection of the ballot, and he must say
motion of his Honourable Friend had been met when it was
first brought forward. They would recollect the assertion that all the arguments urged against it appeared to him to
which had been put forward with so much confidence that be more founded upon sentiment than reason. What were
this movement was not founded or based on any particular the words of the Noble Lord? " Look," he said, "at
support. The Hon. Member who had stated so, had said America; there every man's vote is known, though they
that it was based on an erroneous, and not on a popular sup- have the ballot. Well, what did that prove but that
port. He (Mr. Osborne) could not, in his own person, pre- there was no intimidation and no bribery—that, in fact,
sume to say how far he expressed the feelings of the consti- the voter was careless whether his vote was known or
tuency that he so inadequately represented, but this he not.—(Hear, hear.) Then the Noble Lord tried to frighten
would say, that if not founded on popular support, it was in them, and he said, " Look at France; there they had a
his opinion founded at all events on justice and expediency, Chamber elected by the ballot, and they had a revolution!"
and he for one would therefore give his vote in its favour.—
The Noble Lord must have been aware that that Chamber
(Hear, hear.) Though there might be some difference in the was elected by a constituency of under 200,000 in a popu-
wording of the petitions that had been presented on this lation of 34,000,000, and that it was owing to the ballot
subject, it could not be denied but that they all united in one alone that any independent Member found his way into the
prayer and one opinion, and that was that the present repre- Chamber.—(Hear, hear.) To the ballot, and to the ballot
sentation of this country was inadequate—(Hear, hear)— alone, it was owing that Conservatives were returned to the
and it was remarkable that throughout the three present representative body.—(Hear. hear.) But the usual
speeches made against the motion, though all had ridi- sentimental reason for refusing the ballot was that it was
ruled the details, not one word had been said against " un-English." This was supposed to be unanswerable.
the principle.—(llear, hear.) One of these lion. Members He doubted, however, whether it was not far more un-
had told them that he hated the word " Reform ;" English to traffic in votes and to bribe a man with money
and yet that lion. Gentleman had himself written pam- to make him vote against his conscience.—( Hear.) Many
phlets in favour of it in 1829, and had given notice of two Members were perhaps aware that the celebrated Committee
motions in the present session that seemed to have a ten-
of four, which sat upon the Reform Bill, was composed of
dency in that direction. He next came to the speech of Sir James Graham, Lord John Russell, Lord Duncannon,
his lion. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, whose and the Earl of Durham; and he would ask the House to
speeches—as long as they were not directed against himself remember what they recommended.—(Hear, hear.) Why
—he always heard with great admiration and delight. That they recommended the introduction of the ballot and the
Hon. Gentleman, by his untiring energy and great abilities, shortening of the duration of Parliaments.—(Hear, hear.)
had done one thing which no other man could have done— And what said Lord Althorp upon the same occasion?
he had almost communicated a condition of galvanic life to e Why," said be, "by your introduction of the Chandos
the defunct principles of Toryism.—(Hear, hear, and clause into the Reform Bill you have made it one great ar-
ument for the ballot."—(Hear hear.) Earl Grey used the
laughter.) He had told them that he was for none g ,
of their vulgar Reformers—that he would have none of their same argument in the House of Lords. After this he would
Wilsons or their Thompsons, but that he was ready to rally ask those twenty Honourable Gentlemen who voted for the
round any great measures of reform that might emanate ballot in 1842, some of whom then used hard language to
from No. 17, Old Bond-street.—(Laughter.) Every one, the Noble Lord, whether they would be swayed by the Noble
it appeared, was now for progress; and the only question Lord's argument in 1848? Twenty gentlemen belonging to
was, what was to be the base of the new vehicles, the Government—two of them Cabinet Ministers—voted for
and who were to be the drivers ? He feared, however, the ballot in 1832 ! Would they support it now?—(Hear
that the country was not likely to benefit much by hear.) The next question to be noticed was that relat-
the extent of unanimity among lion. Members on the sub- big to the qualification of Members. The Noble Lord had
ject. They were all tamiliar with the fable of the man with said very little on this subject in his speech the other
two wives—the younger of whom pulled all the grey hairs night. He would tell the House, however, that the
out of his head, while the elder one pulled out the black qualification was of recent introduction.—(Hear, hear.)
hairs, until he was in a short time left without any hair at In the year 1703, the then Parliament composed prin-
all. So it was in that House. One did not like electoral cipally of landed proprietors, was very jealous of the
divisions, another objected to the ballot, and another to commercial classes, and as they wished to confine the
household suffrage, until, between all, the reform for which legislative power to the gentry, they passed an Act declaring
they professed themselves anxious dwindled down to nothing; that no man who had not an estate of 300/. a year in land
and next session he had no doubt but that his lion. Friend was eligible to a seat in that House. The clause as to land
would find himself shorn of all his fair proportions.— had been altered by Mr. Warburton's Bill, but the amount
(Laujiter.) The Noble Lord at the head of the Govern- remained. Now, what said a Cabinet Minister, Mr. Ma-
ment had taken another objection—one that seemed to be caulay. on this subject? He did not know, however, whether
the stereotyped objection on such occasions. He had told Mr. Macaulay was now in the Cabinet or not—nobody knew
them that none of them objected to reform, but that this that.—(A laugh.) But what said Mr. Macaulay? "It is
was not the proper time.—(Hear, hear.) That objec- no part of the constitution of the kingdom," he said, " that
tion seemed to be at all times a sort of stage pro- the qualification should be exacted ; nor a consequence of the
perty in Downing-street. In 1785, when Pitt brought Revolution. It was introduced by a bad Parliament, now
forward his measure of reform, Lord North met it by say- held iii no great esteem, for the purpose of defeating the Re-
ing that that was not the proper time. In 1790, Mr. Pitt, volution and excluding the Protestant succession from the
who had succeeded to office in the interim, gave the very Crown."—(Hear.) What did the Hon. Gentleman the
same answer to Mr. Flood ; and he found that the Noble Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate) think of
Lord, when he brought forward his motions for reform in that ?—(A laugh.) Another question upon which the Come
1822, 1828, and 1831, was met by the same exclamation. mittee of four reported in 1831 was the duration of
'f he objection of the Ministers of the day always ran in the Parliaments. —(Hear, hear.) Now he declared that
same cuckoo note,—" This is not the proper time."—(Hear, if ever there had been a serious infraction of the Constitu-
hear.) He was of o, inion that no time could be more fitting lion, it was the passing of the Septennial Act. It was
than the present.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that when passed through one of the Whig horrors of the day. In
they had certain indications of a coming storm in the hori- 1715 the great Whig houses wanted to make the people
zon it was the time for putting their houses in order. He afraid of the Pretender, and therefore they passed this Bill,
thought that when the Government had found it necessary to which was not brought first into the House of Commons,
introduce a measure for the better protection of life and pro- but into the House of Lords by the Duke of Devonshire,
perty, that they ought to be at least ready to tell the people enacting that Parliaments should last for seven years. It
that other measures to meet the public wishes would also was opposed by the Tory party in the House of Commons,
be brought forward, and that the Noble Lord should con- not certainly for very elevated reasons, for that assigned by
sent to lay on the table a Bill in favour of the arneliora- Sir John Barnard was, that " county gentlemen should
tion of the national representation. A change in the always be returned to that House, and nobody else."—(Hear,
constitution of that House was the more necessary in the hear.) The Noble Lord would find that the average duration
of Parliaments sinceAe twthh(e)erzreefidegrne,ohfeGmeoarginetaiHn.edwahsadsinyeeLarass.
of
eeoulscle caorinsretitauntiroz.lnua;
sandriashe,
present state of the finances of the country. The great
complaint made by the present and the late Ministers of the Thev Septennialsaid,
racticallt,
the olden time, they must
Crown was, that they were far from wishing to increase
further maintained P practically worked
ieftlaurs
the public burdens, but that additional expenses were con-
wished to tread in the steps
)rinHesteie(nsalrt.thOissbporeninet), shhaodulidt
scantly pressed upon them by Parliament—principally, no
repeal this law.—(Hear, h
have been content to leave'e thear doubt, by the Hon. Members who sat on the benches be- have
of the discussion the other
hind them—(Laughter)—and who were anxious to effect
night,n ot been t
the
e that
Noble i n L
et
on
de
fire
said the Government of this coun-
objects beneficial to their constituents. When they recol-
tNiaerbslvea s
Lneortdcarried
that
occasion
atshi
een benefiteinete do f theTae
iaristocracy.
Hon. The
, lected the enormous burden of taxation that was pressing
upon the country, and when they saw that
_all their re- Noble
for West Surrey (Mr. H. Drummond), on the other
sources were failings he thought that the absolute necessity
band , quoted Dodd. He (Mr. Osborne) had also consulted
for retrenchment was a strong argument why they ought
boroughsDodd, and he found, according to Dodd, there were forty-two
to reform the constitution of that House.—(Hear, hear.)
still su!ject to local influence. Of these. thirty-
The Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire seemed to argil
that so far from taxation having increased, it had actually
remained stationary since 1827. His Hon. Friend had given three were under the direct influence of Peers. Eighteen
M
them a statement showing that the ordinary revenue for Members represented eleven Whig Peers, and twenty- four
the financial year ending the sth of January, 1818, represented twenty-two Tory Peers. The Noble Lord knew
was forty-five and a half millions, bat he did not know on the constitution of this country : he (Mr. Osborne) would de-
round his Hon. Friend had fixed on that sum as scribe it according to Dodd.—(A laugh.) The present House
what g,
the revenue for that year was no less than 54,850,000 n contained six marquises, eight earls, twenty-one viscounts,
Neither could he understand why the Hun. Member should thirty-six lords, sixty-one baronets, and about a dozen
keep the income-tax entirely out of view in his calculation. honourable misters, making about 274 Members connected
But instead of taking 1827, the Hon. Member ought to have with the aristocracy in that House. Besides, there were
taken 1835 and 1836, years after the passing of the Reform forty-four Members connected with the army, eight with the
Bill, and when a system of retrenchment had been entered navy, and eight holding official appointments. So that in the
upon. Let the House look to the comparative view which whole there were no fewer than 334 individuals in that House
those years supplied. The army, navy, ordnance, and mis- under the direct influence of the aristocracy. He did note
cellaneous estimates for 1835 only amounted to 14,123,0001., attack individuals, he only attacked the system; but he
whereas these estimates for 1848 were no less than must say, that things had arrived at such a pass in this
23,315,000/., or an increase amounting, in fact, to upwards country, that it must be declared the power of the aristocracy
of nine millions.—(Hear, hear.) In the face of all this, how, had increased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished.
he would ask, could his'Honourable Friend assert that the —(Hear, hear.) They had all heard of family petitions,
country could not complain of taxation ? On comparing and his Hon. Friend ( Mr. Hume) had been taunted with
the proportion of taxation paid in different countries he the numbers he presented. But what was the fact with
found that the amount of taxes per head was, in the United regard to the Government itself ? Was it not founded upon
family arrangements? Look at the construction of the
hproeseernietuCsatbhiante,twitHheownoeuledxemeepntiteionn,
all nthaemesm,embubetrsit
of it
States 9s. 7d., in Russia 9s. 9d., in Austria Ils. 6d., in
Prussia Ils. 4d., in France 11. 45., and in Great Britain
2/. 12s. 6d.—(Hear, hear)—and that did not include church- t
were connected together by the ties of blood or marriage.
rates, borough-rates, and other local burdens. When the
They were a snug family party.—(A laugh.) They so far
differed from another exhibition, which was called the
Hon. Gentleman told them that the working classes had no
reason to complain of taxation, he would ask, had the poor
Happy Family—(A. laugh)—that whereas that exhibition
man no right to complain, that out of every 20s. which he
was
nearly so;
posed of distinct breeds, here they were all one, or
expended in the purchase of tea, 10s. went in duty; while
and granting that the individual members of the
out of every 20s. expended in tobacco, 16s. went in duty;
Cabinet were men of great knowledge and talent, he could
and in the articles of sugar and coffee he was also taxed
only account for the ricketty offspring they had brought
to a Ready similar amount? Would the working classes
forward, in the shape of legislative measures, by the fact
believe tiler under such circumstances there had been no
that the parents were all related.—(Hear, hear.) Then look
increase in the expenditure since 1827 ? And here he would
at their subordinates. They were all scions of the aristo-
beg to remark, that he could never forget the debt of
cracy. And when the Noble Lord wished he might never
gratitude which he felt was due to the Right lion. Baronet
see the day when the Howards and the Stanleys would not
the Member for Tamworth for his effort in favour of the
be in office—
reduction of taxes which pressed upon the poorer portion
Lord J. RUSSELL—I said nothing of the kind.
of the community.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
had dwelt on the efforts which had been made to get up Mr. OSBORNE begged the Noble Lord's pardon. The
an agitation on this question, but the lion. Gentleman Noble Lord might wish to see the Howards and the
ought to recollect that agitators and professional lec- Stanleys in office, for there were few of them in the public
turers were not the cause but the effect of public service. and the country would not object
_t but the country
did
eobejilicetetofersewe
which he
Hheonmo,ausratbelteallTyo
discontent.—(Hear, hear.) He had himself met manyobtaining
unfit, while other men
of greaterai ability, but not of such high birth, were passed
paid agitators at different times travelling through sOni
1).1.
onv(e)r.oHonourable
Therewas
Friendan example in point. The son of his
the country, who exhibited letters of license dated
from No. 17, Old Bond-street.—(Laughter.) He would
not enter into the question of abstract right of voting,
whichnurhae
wasadmirably(Mr. Hume) obtained an office for
That was all very well for bookworms and persons of that fitted by capacity and education,
and immediately there was a hullabaloo in that House as if
description ; but he would confine himself to the practical tl re '
lwl e constitution were tumbling to pieces ; but if a
view of the matter. There were in that House many advo-
cates for universal suffrage. He confessed that he was not
gentleman of the name of Russell obtained an appointment
one of them. He believed that where interests had grown not
lng was said about it. The fact was that our Govern-
up under a limited suffrage, they could not go at once to ment was the Government of a great family ; and he would
universal suffrage with safety to the general representation jnst ask whether it had been very remarkable for its success
of the country. He was ready to abide by a residential test, in any one branch ? Was the Colonial Administration so
and he would the more readily adopt such a system because very prosperous ? Was the condition of our finances very
it would let in that class, the educated mechanics—who he promising ? Had the promises made to Ireland when out
They were however k -
thought had not been done justice to by the Hon. Member of office been kept whilst in office ? No.—(Hear, hear.)
fur West Surrey (Mr. H. Drummond), when he said that . er kept in because none of the greatifamilies
they did not trouble their heads with the subject. The were prepared to take the Government. What was most
Noble Lord had stated in 1822 that he based his demand desired was a Government of practical men.—(Hear, hear.)
for reform on the progress of education and intelligence; He had been much grieved at the closing remarks in the
and he compared the state of the country in 1770, speech of his lion. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire.
when there bad been but four circulating libraries His Hon. Friend objected to tbis movement because he said
in London, with that time, when there were 100 it was a middle-class movement, and that the best Govern-
circulating libraries in London, and 500 in the ment was one of traditionary influences and great property,
round which men might rally. When his Hon. Friend
country. But what would the Noble Lord think ought
to be the basis of the frachise now when he recol- talked so sneeringly of the middle classes, he could not help
lected the spread of mechanics' institutes throughout the thinking he had strangely forgotten the very recent day
country since the period when he had put forward that when the middle classes rallied round the small properties of
statement?—(Hear, hear.) In the report of Sergeant Gre. the country, and stood between the Government and revo-
vine's Committee it was stated, even at that remote time, lution.—(Cheers.) He wished his Honourable Friend to
that all householders were entitled to vote as well as free.. recollect that if this country was distinguished for one
men.—(Hear, hear ) Coming down to more modern times, thing more than another, it was for the intelligence and
he found that the present Duke of Marlborough brought in wealth of its middle classes; that they were the class which
a Bill in 1830, not merely for reform, but for the payment of united the ornamental and polished parts of the building
Members of Parliament, for the admission of clergymen into to the more solid but rude foundation ; that in fact they
that House, for the establishment of electoral districts, and formed the cement which really preserved the institutions of
for household suffrage. Many of the Noble Lord's present the country. He (Mr. Osborne) should like to know, from
colleagues voted in favour of that Bill, and he found that one iris lion. Friend, what were the traditionary influences to
of them—a Cabinet Minister of the present day, Sir John which he referred? The only traditionary influence he
Cant Hobhouse—proposed in 1830 the adoption of a series of could find on reading the history was, that a Member for a
resolutions, declaring that no House of Commons would de- county was once superseded in his election to that House
serve the confidence of the people until the right of suf- because Clarencieux, king-at .arms, could not find his coat of
frage was extended ; that each Member ought to be elected arms at the Herald's College. If there was another, it was
by a proportionate body of electors; that the duration of that the Speaker was at one time obliged to sit in his chair
Parliament ought to be materially shortened; and that in a cocked hat. For the traditionary influences of that
each elector should, without exposure to loss or gain, house, how far back would his Hon. Friend go? Would
be protected in his vote by the ballot.—( ear hear.) h 9
ego to tha reign of Edward 111. when only one place,
He hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet and those of 'his col. Lancaster, sent a Member to that House in the whole of
leagues by whom he was supported on that occasion would that county ? Would he go back to the time of Henry VII.