The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-08 00:00:00

Australia, Sydney, and New South Wales, will be dispatched
on the eveni, g of the 3 lst instant.
__

Ho'hind—The oc,an fi:r the mails of the morning of the
Bth inst:int.
lianillurtzh—The Princess Royal for the mails of the even-
ing of the 7th inst.

ACCIDENT ON THE BRIGHTON AND HASTINGS RAIL-
wAY.—On Wednesday afternoon, as the two o'clock train
from Briahton to Hastings was on its way, and when about
a mile from the Polegate station (the line being at that part
in a cutting), the engine and tender ran off the rails, drawing
after them a third and first-class carriage. *The passengers
were greats- alarmed, but, fortunately, no one was seriously
injured. Mr. Clement, of Hastings, sustained a slight con-
tusion on the mouth, and a porter of the company had his
knee slightly hurt, but beyond this no one was injured. Tte
train was detained two hours before the engine and carriages
could be again placed on the line. It then proceeded to its
destination. With t: is exception the traffic was not inter-
rupted. The accident was caused by the sinking of the line
at that spot, in consequence of the late rains. This has since
been repaired.

SUSPECTED MURDER.— NEWCASTLE ON -TINE, WED-
NESDAY NlGHT.—Three men, named Thoburn, Bell, and
Douglas, and a girl named Ann M'Cartnev, havincs been
apprehended, charged with being concerned in the murder
of Mr. Robert Lowthin, late registrar of births, marriages,
and deaths for the Gateshead district, and whose body was
recently found in the river Tyne, under extraordinary cir-
cumstances. M'Cartney was first taken into custody, it
having been ascertained that she was one of two girls with
whom the deceased was seen on the night on which his
death occurred. Immediately on her apprehension she
made a confession, the full extent of which has not been
allowed to be made public. Her statements implicated the
three men, the first of whom surrendered to the police 'yes-
terday, and the others this morning. Thoburn, as soon as
taken to the police-station, made a confession to the in-
spector present, in which he unreservedly admits that he
and the other prisoners are guilty of robbing the person of
the unfortunate deceased. but he as strongly denies all
knowledge of the way in which the unfortunate man came
to his death. His fellow-prisoners admit the accuracy of
the confession, the substance of which is, that late in the
night in question the prisoners were in the company of the
deceased, whom they found insensible in the streets. They
contrived to rob him of his watch and money, to an amount
exceeding 51., and left him, they say, under one of the
sheds which stand on the quay here. Of his further pro-
ceedings, or how he came into the Tyne, they profess them-
selVes ignorant. The deceased's watch has been recovered,
and the police are busily endeavouring to elucidate still
further this mysterious affair, which is causing great excite-
ment in this town and neighbourhood.

SALE OF GREEK AND ROMAN COINS.—On Thursday
sale of Greek and lioman coins, which has lasted 11 days,
the property of Cavaliere John Peter Campana, of Rome,
from which city they were brought for sale in this country,
was concluded at the auction-rooms of Messrs. Sotheby and
Wilkinson, Wellington-street, Strand, many of which fetched
high prices. They belonged to the circulating medium of
almost all the periods of the existence of those empires,
many of which have been bought for the British Museum,
while agents attended from France, Italy, and other parts,
to purchase. There were 1,538 lots, the sums at which some
of them went for being as follows :—A bronze medallioH of
Annius Verus et Gommoclus, of which there was only an-
other specimen known, and which is in the Bibliotheque
Royal at Paris, 36/. ; a ditto of Hadrianus, 30/. ; a small
gold coin of Platina, on the reverse was the laureated head
of her husband. 20/. 10s. ; a ditto of Domitian, with the
head of the Empress on the obverse, a most rare coin of
the Empress, of which there are only three known, 271.; a
large brass coin of ditto, of which only two are ex-
tant, 161.; a middle brass of ditto, 10/. 9s. sd. ; a bronze me-
dallion of Geta, on the reverse the Emperor standing in the
midst of five military standards, from the Gabeleur collec•
tion, 13/. • a bronze ditto of Faustina, sen., one of her most
rare medallions, 10/. ; a large brass coin of Hadrianus, re.
lating to Britain, on the reverse the Emperor on horseback,
addressing the British 3 soldiers, 14/. 14s. ; a small silver coin
of Claudius Macer, the head of Africa on the obverse, on the
reverse the Roman legionary eagle between two military
standards, 91. 12s. 6d.; a gold coin of Sextus Pompelius, on
the obverse the head of the Emperor encircled by a garland
of oak, on the reverse the head of Pompey the Great, and
Cneius Pompey, his eldest son, 121. 10s. ; a large brass coin
of Caligula, on the reverse the Emperor is addressing five
soldiers, 101.; a large brass ditto of Marcus Aurelius, on the
obverse the Emperor on the eagle, going to Olympus, &c.,
9/. 12s. • a small silver coin of the Brutii, their caps orna-
mented with laurel leaf, Cl., &c. The entire property realised
above 3,000/. _

FATAL ACClDENT.—Yesterday morning, about half-
past six o'clock, a number of printing machine boys (belonging to the
Times) proceeded as usual to bathe in the Thames, near Paul's
Wharf, when otie of them, a youth nearly 18 years of age, named
William Clark, was drowned. It appears, from the statement of one
of the bathers, that the unfortunate deceased was unable to swim,
and was only witnessing the others while standing on the extreme
edge of a coal barge lying close to Paul's Wharf. The swell of the
river, caused by the passing of the Bee steam-boat, made the barge
heave forward, throwing the unfortunate youth overboard; the body
was picked up almost immediately, without the slightest signs of life.
It being so early in the morning, the usual warm baths and other re-
storatives were not available.

IMPERIAL PARL LAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, August 7.
DIILILARY FLOGGING.
Lord J. RUSSELL said--Sir, in rising to move the order of
the day for going into Committee of Supply, I will answer those
inquiries which have been made by Hon. Members with respect to
corporal punishment, and in so doing, I can only generally state
what is to be done by the Commander-in-Chief of the army;
and before I do so, I beg to state that I wish neither to have
the credit of suggesting any alteration which the Commander-
in-Chief has thought proper to make, nor do I wish, on the
other hand, to shrink from any responsibility with
regard to the limit at which the Commander-in-Chief has
stopped, and has determined not to comply with what appears
to be the wish amongst some —that there should be a total
abolition of corporal punishment. I say, therefore, that the
plan which has been at present adopted, is the plan of
the Duke of Wellington, and one which he has deter-
mined on. He thinks, as matters stand at pre-
sent, corporal punishment ought not to be abolished.
I have a paper here which shows what are the present regula-
tions with respect to corporal punishment. By the articles of
r. e esvictp. eafore a pgrieralicourism artiabshese Id be
ing 200 lashes ; before a garrison court-martial not exceeding
150 lashes, or before a regimental court-martial not more than
hal lashes. Now, the Duke of Wellington having taken this
subject into his consideration, has given directions to the
officers to whom the duty appertains of ordering such
corporal punishment, that by no court-martial of
any kind, whether general, district, garrison, or regimental,
shall any greater punishment be inflicted than fifty 'lashes—
( Cheers)—a very considerable diminution, which the Com-
mander-in-Chief has ordered with respect to the army. He
has, at the same time, given special directions that every
precaution should be taken in order to ascertain
the state of any offender who may be sentenced
to receive corporal punishment, that his health is such
that he appears in so robust a state of health as to be able
to bear the punishment. He has likewise directed that every
other circumstance should be attended to—whether the extreme
heat of the weather, or any severity in the sta.e of the
weather, or any other circumstances whatever which
might make the infix:ion of such punishment dangerous to the
offender sentenced to receive it. Such, then, are the
directions, which have been given by the Commander-
in-Chief, applying directly to corporal punishment. Now,
S,r, I know that my Hon. Friend the Member for
Bolton (Dr. Bowring) has given notice for that purpose,
that corporal punishment should be at once totally abo-
lished.—( Hear, hear.) I think every one must desire, and I
am sure the Government desire, that it may be possible to
keep the army in a right state of discipline without the
infliction of any corporal punishment whatever.—
(Cheers.) I should be glad, for my own, part to
see that day when corporal punishment shall be
entirely abolished.—(Renewed cheers.) But, Sir, I do think
that the maintenance of discipline in the army is a paramount
object.—( Hear.) I consider that a well disciplined soldiery
is a protection to the country to which they belong—a terror to
the enemy which they have to meet, and that an ill
disciplined soldiery, is, on the other hand, a terror to the coun-
try to which they belong, and a scorn to the enemy they have
to encounter.—( Hear, hear.) I, therefore, consider that the
Duke of Wellington is perfectly right in making the
present reduction which he has made, without taking any
ulterior steps, because, if we are to look fur the abolition of
corporal punishment, and at the same time to the maietenance
of discipline, which I think I perceive this House feels as highly
as I myself have just stated it—(Hear, hear)—it is only
by two modes that it can be effected.—(Hear, hear.) The
one is by substituting some other mode of punishment for
effecting a higher state of discipline than the one hitherto in
operation ; and the other is, by so ehanging the moral feeling of
those belonging to the army, that other motives and other
modes of government would have greater effect in influencing
their conduct than those now employed.—( Hear, hear. )
To both these objects have the attention of those
connected with the management of the army been
from time to time directed. 'Pile commanding officers
of the army have had the subject under their consideration—
both Lord Hill arid the Duke of Wellington. The various
Secretaries at War have ale, had their attention called to the
question—Lord Howick, Mr. Macaulay. Mr. Sidney Herbert,
and ,the present Right Hon. Gentleman who occupies that
office. With respect to other kinds of punishment, the
subject was fully considered by the Commission which
sat on the question in 1835. Different modes were
then suggested both with regard to military
prisons and solitary confinement ; for great advances
have since then been made in carrying out the recommenda-
tion of that Commission. A considerable number of prisons
have been constructed, others are in progress ; besides, altera-
tions in several prisons ere proposed, in order to make them
available for the purposes suggested. But as yet the system is
nut in complete operation. I have in my possession several ac-
counts of the new prisons in progress, in order to give effect to
punishment by means of imprisonment. New prisons are
erecting in Dubl.n and Cork. In Canada the military prisons
are in progress, but as yet they are not in a complete state.
In Gibraltar and the lonian Islands new prisons are to be coo-
structed. For Nova Scotia plans for a new prison have been
submitted, and for the West Indies the officers of the army
have the subject under consideration with the object of erect-
ing a prison, so far the suggestions of the commissioners have
been carried into effect. With regard to cells for the purpose
of short terms of imprisonment the subject has been under the
consideration of an old friend of mine ; and he has proposed a
plan upon the subject. The late Government had also en-
gaged the services of Major Jeff on this subject. A number of
cells have been constructed, the result of these deliberations,
but the system is in its greatest features as yet but new, and
but partially introduced. With regard to the extent
to which corporal punishment has been carried
out, I am happy to be enabled to say that
this mode of punishment has been considerably diminished of
late, in consequence of other modes of punishment being car-
ried into effect. The returns I have in my possession will
show the extent to which this diminution has taken place.
The returns are from 1838 till now :
CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IN TIIE ARMY IN PROPORTION TO
THE WIIOLE OF THE FORCE.
In 1838 1 in 108 In 1e42 1 in 140
In 1839 1 in 122 In 1843 1 in 194
In 1840 1 in 129 In 1844 1 in 194
In 1841 1 is 126 In 1845 1 in 189
The ratio, therefore, is, that about one man in every 190
receives corporal punishment in the course of the year. Now,
if any one can consider and reflect what was the state of
corporal punishment in the army formerly, they cannot but
that even the number of lashes, has been greatly diminished.
that the number of persons receiving punishment, and
With regard to the second mode which I havestated, by which
corporalpunishment may be reduced, and may at length altogether
be abolished in practice, is by the improvement of the moral
condition of the soldier, and making him
of an offence more than the reflection of the punishment—
(
latethe first
yearsiof
.changes
h allivaeatra' kheenar)p—lacaeadoirfear the commission
great number of rewards have been distributed for good con.
duct, and more frequent commissions in the army have been
bestowed upon private soldiers. Between the 31st of December
and the present time, no less than thirteen commissions.
have Leen given to private soldiers.—( Hear, hear.) With 'laCietha greatthisoab?jemcbt number
view. A
re-
spect to the improvement of their minds, my. Hon. Friend.
stated the pains which had been taken to establish libraries in

the United Kingdom. No less than 500 libraries have been
established, containing no less than 60,000 volumes. The
late Secretary at War was the proposer of this plan, and an
excelreet one it is; and I consider that the effect
of such institutions libraries, containing well-selected
works—must have a most beneficial effect upon young men
going into the army. When I was at the head of the Chelsea
establishment, I found that the men were constantly at the
public houses, and I therefore proposed that they should have
certain small gardens allotted upon which they could employ
themselves. I have just heard that the plan has proved most
successful, yet when I proposed the plan I was told that I did
not under stand the character of the British soldier, and it was
prophesied that the plan would never succeed.—(Hear, hear.)
Why, if you encourage t'ne soldier in idleness he will always
he idle, while, if you give him sources of occupation
and amusement, you will find that he becomes a better
soldier and a mote contented man.--(Hear.) At the same
time that I was at the head of the Chelsea establish-
ment, I advocated the establishment of savings' banks, bet
the officers of the army strongly objected to it, and in one in-
stance returned the money deposited in one of the banks, with
an intimation that it might be spent as the owners thought
proper. At present, however, he was glad to say there was
a strong disposition for encouraging soldiers to deposit
their money in savings' banks.—( Hear, hear.) That
subject has occupied the attention of Government and the
Commander for some weeks, with a view of devising
some great plan upon the subject, and it will continue
to occupy the attention of those connected with
the Government with the view of maintainir g discipline in
the army. arid at the same time diminishing, as far as
possible, the necessity for corporal punishment.—(Hear. )
Sir, I trust I have now said enough to induce my Honourable
Friend the Member fur Bolton to postpone his motion,
of which he has given notice—(Dr. Bowring shook his
head. ) lam sorry to see that he makes a sign that
he does not assent to my proposal, and I must
therefore go on to make one or two statements with regard
to this subject which I think merit the attention of the
House. In the early part of 1835, there was a Commission ap-
pointed upon this subject. It consisted of Lord Wharncliffe,
Lord Sandon, Sir W. J. Heath, Mr. Tufnell, Colonel Bar, and
Sir John Ross. This Commission, after examining
a great many witnesses, from the highest officers down to the
private in the guards, came to the conclusion that corporal
punishment could not be abolished immediately.—( Hear.)
The fourth resolution is, that even supposing that some
effectual substitute might be devised, it is not desirable that
it should be entirely abolished. Such is the opinion given by
men of considerable authority, anti men who were members of
t hat Committee, some of them military authorities and of consi-
derable military repute. Sir, a number of military authorities have
proceeded upon that opinion, to endeavour as much as pos-
sible to reduce the amount of corporal punishment—(Hear,
hear}—and to substitute other punshments in its place.—
( Hear, hear.) I consider that this House ought not,
at the end of a session, suddenly to propose, on an
occasion that would scarcely warrant a material alteration
of the law—that this House ought not at the end of a session,
I say, to carry any resolution by which the whole system
of military discipline would be altered—(Hear, bear)
and the confidence of the army in general, both of
those military authorities which are placed over them
and of the soldiers, and pt ople would be materially
shaken.—( Hear, hear.) I cannot but think, even if my
Hon. Friend professes no confidence in the designs, and de-
sires, and intentions of the present Government—
if that is his statement, that he does not believe
what I say, that we wish to see this system of punishment re-
tained only as long as it is absolutely necessary—even if he does
not give credit to that statement, I think it is due to the illus•
trious man now at the head of the army of this country to rest
satisfied with the orders he has now given, showing, as those
orders do, the utmost desire to consider both the benefit
of the army, and that which is due to humanity upon this
question.—( Hear, hear.) Even omitting any reference to the
glorious achievements of that chief in the space of 60 years,
I think, spent in the army, and in every position of that army—
(Cheers)—from serving in the lowest ranks up to the eminent
station to which he has now attained ; the experience he
has had in the command of the armies, in the field and at
borne—the knowledge that he has had of the modes
of liscipline pursued in other armies, I think has entitled him
to the confidence of the House with respect to the mode in which
he proposes to carry on the discipline of the army. —( Hear,
hear.) For my part, I tell you now, as I told you
at the beginning, that these ate the views the Commander-
in-Chief takes, and in which the Government entirely concur
with the Commander-in-Chief.--( Hear.) I ask this House
therefore to pause before they adopt an inconside-
rate resolution.-- ( Hear, hear.) I ask them to
rest satisfied with what has been done, and allow this
useful progress to continue, and if they wish not to mar the fair
work that has been commenced, to abstain from interposing a
resolution to this House in the way that the Hon. and Learned
Member proposes.—( Cheers. )
Dr. BOW RING said that he had seldom risen impressed
with emotions of a more painful nature than he did at the
present time. He was sure that every Honourable Member
could with him bear witness to the tone and temper in which
the Noble Lord who had just sat down had addressed the
House. It was to him a matter of great disappointment that
the Noble Lord had come to the conclusion which he had done
upon the subject. He did hope that under the influence of
public opinion, which had removed such masses of abominations
connected with military flogging associated with their past mi-
litary history—he did hope that public opinion, again called
into energy and again reaching every bosom, would have so
influenced the Government as to persuade it that a total abo-
lition of the system of military flogging can be safely delayed
nolonger, and that the country must get rid of it at once—
not a fragment, not a vestige, not a modification of them
must be left; but that the House was bound tc consider what
measures are necessary for the constitution, of the army, and
for the preservation of its discipline, always bearing in view
that the lash is no longer to be put in the hands of the flogger
—(Citeers. ) When he considered the illustrious names con-
nected with the modification of flogging in the army, and who
had from time to -time made such progress in benevolent
feelings, with such kindness, such wisdom, arid such eloquence,
he could not but feel that the present subject had fallen into
feeble hands. After all, there was only one single word—one
single argument brought forward—the argument. of necessity.
This is an argument which has always been put forward in alt
times by tyrants of all nations ;.from the earliest period of their
history it had always been trought forward in support of the
lash. Torquemiuto, when he burnt his thousands—the
monsters of the inquisition calmed their consciences by the
belief that necessity demanded the frightful outrane—slavery
At' noooscitv
ft igged through the fleet, and 1,500
ashes wire laid upon the back of the sufferers, necessity was
then put forward as the plea of justification. The plea of !le-
es ssity had justified everything which had been dune by tyrants
in every age—everything which had been done by the rack, by
the torture, by the galley, and by the guillotine ; but he hoped
to show before he sat down that necessity did not justify the
retention of any portion of this abominable system of flogging,
and that the time had arrived when Parliament was baund
unequivocally to declare that, whatever be the substitute, mili-
tary flagging was no longer to be endured.—( Cheers.) It
was delightful to witness in the present day the progress of
humanity with reference to this subject. Time was, when in
their West Indian colonies, the slaves had the lash laid upon
their backs without mercy and without responsibility. Their
condition was much worse than the domestic slavery of the
Roman times. Education had since, however, exerted a
hunanising influence. Flogging had been gradually driven
away from their schools. ( Laughter.) He thought that
the time was now come when a humane discipline should
characterise their military code. In a book lately published
by the son of Dr. Ferguson, the Inspector-General of military
hospitals, the following description of the barbarous system
was given. ( The Hon. Member here read an extract, from
which it appeared that a soldier belonging to the sth Regiment
had broken into the house of a person. living in Sussex, and
had been sentenced to be flogged for the offence. When
stripped he exhibited the finest model of the human frame that
could possibly be conceived, and when tied up he told the
drummer boys to do their worst, for they should not extract a
sigh or groan from him. After receiving 770 lashes,
though not a word hut one of defiance and abase had escaped
his lips, nature failed him, and he was ordered to be
taken down. After a few weeks he was reported cured, and
the Colonel determiued to inflict the remainder of the punish-
ment. He was again brought out and tied up. But it was
not now as before. At the very first lash the new and scarcely
formed skin wee torn to tatters, the scarcely cicatrised
wounds were again torn open, and soon the whole of the
integuments of the back were torn to ribbons and screams,
shrieks, and all the other signs of writhing agony were called
forth at every stroke of the cat. The second cure was not as
!secure. When the author left the regiment on promotion a few
months afterwards, he left a poor hectic wretch in the hospi-
tal, creeping about with his back not healed, as before, for
healthy suppuration could not be obtained, but extensive
sloughings had taken place, and abscesses in various
paris had been formed, which could not be healed. )
He would now read an extract from Marshall's " Military Mis-
cellany," which comprised the statement of an efficer who hal
himself formerly been a drummer. He stated that for eight
years it had been his miserable duty to inflict the punishment of
flogging three times a week, and that after the first 100 lashes,
the suffering was extreme. and that after 300 lashes, his clothes
were saturated with blood, and he would run to the barracks to
escape the sight of his comrades, and to divest himself of the
pollution of his fellow soldier's blood. That frequently he has
picked pieces of skin and flesh from his clothes, which had been
torn from the poor sufferer's back. A late friend of his, Mr.
Jeremy Bentham, suffered much from this proximity to the
flogging yard, and used to tell him that he was tortured by the
shrieks of agony he used to hear from the suffering soldiers.
One of the severest operations in surgery was the operation
fur stone, and when skilfully performed, lasted only a few
minutes; and it had been said that each lash was equal to the
incision of the skin in that operation ; 50 lashes were then to
be retained—the soldier was to be subjected to a punishment
equal to 50 incisions. The extent of the punishment could
not be measured, as its operation would be different, according
to the different temperament, and that which might kill one,
might be endured by another safely. There was one instance
in which a soldier, in the course of his service, had received
no less than 15,000 lashes. Mr. Slade, when examined before
a Committee on the subject of transportation, had also
given evidence as to the uncertainty of the punish-
ment, and its variation under different circumstances.
That man said that when punishments were administered by
' others who were liable to be bribed, the scourger inflicted the
blows so they merely seemed to take effect, bnt when it
was administered under his superintendence, the skin was cut
by four lashes. That same man said he ordered-that the
handle should be two feet long.—( Cries from several Members,
" Who ?) He meant Dr. Slade, who had charge of the flog-
ging department. There were five lashes of whipcord, and on
each lash six or seven knots. That person said he stood by
and saw- the punishment inflicted himself ; and when the
scourger did not do his duty, he adopted the system existing in
her Majesty's army, and had the scourgers tied up themselves.
He said further that he found twenty-five lashes under his
superintendence were worth one thousand administered by
others. An eye-witness of one of these disgusting scenes,
reports concerning a drummer in the Coldstream Guards that
he stood weeping, unnerved, and unable to strike with vigour
during all the time of his 25 lashes, and behind him stood
the drum-major with his cane, urging him to proceed. In
the late case which had excited so much attention, the farrier

major said, on the inquiry, that he had no instructio- s how or
where to strike, and that he struck where he thought best ; so
that it seemed there was no law to limit them in the adminis.
tration of this punishment just in those particulars where the
greatest injustice could be done; it was lest to individual taste,
or caprice, or malignity. It put him in mind of a case which
he (Dr. Bowring) witnessed in France. A convict condemned
to be branded, happened on his way out of prison to trample on
the font of the executioner. The executioner looked at the

prisoner and said " I'll pay you out for this," and on reaching
the scene of punishment, lifted the branding iron, put it into the
fire till it was red hot, and pressed it into the victim's forehead
till it met the bone. He said he had several recorded cages
which tended to illustrate the effect of the proposal before the
House. The first was the case of one Edwards, sentenced to
59 lashes—SO lashes, he must remind the House—the number
proposed to be retained by the Noble Lord. That Klan was
sentenced and received 50 lashes, but such was the effect on
him that he could not bear his cross Celts
or
use his arms for three months after. He was
a tall, gt nteel looking, slender young mar,.
There was another case of a man named Henly who suffered
200 lashes, and who was upwards of seven months before
he recovered. The drum-major who witnessed the execution
of the sentence of flogging on a private, struck the drummer
to the ground for not performing his duty. He saw the man
who was being flogged fall to the ground, and he died in

eight months after in the infirmary, from mortification. Now,
suppose the presence of a medical man was some security in
this case, what' said Dr. Marshall on the subject. He said,
" Such men were placed in a very unjust position, because
obviously it was impossible, from the naiure of the punish-
ment, and the uncertain circumstances of the sufferer, for a
medical tnan to be held responsible for the consequences;
climate, the physical and mental state of the patient's body,
and the other circumstances to be considered, rendered it im-
possible for the most skilful to be accountable." Inflam-
mation of the back, notwithstanding the greatest diligence
and attention on the pa of the medical man, might lead to
fatal consequences. Now what was the position of the me-
dical man in that case ? Why, in Fonblanque's book on that
subject, it was held, "that a medical man who is present at
an execution of this nature, is held responsible for life."
Now this is legally untrue, and physically impossible.
This was a criterion that enabled him to judge fully
on the subject. The same doctrine was laid down
by another eminent authority. Some officers were dis-
posed to deal leniently, but there were others who were bold and
reckless, and who, unfortunately for human nature, looked on
human suffering without any sympathy or care. Dr. Mark-
ham, on the subject of corporal punishment, said that in the
army the suggestions of the surgeons were often neglected.
lie stated that in an island in the West Indies a man was, on
an occasion he referred to, condemned to receive 500 lashes.
When he had received 250 lashes the doctor ordered the
punishment to be stayed, but the officer in command ordered
the punishment to go on, reprimanded the surgeon for
stopping the progress of the punishment, and placed him
under arrest. The surgeon was only released after an appeal
to the general officer, and after he had been in custody for ten
days. Sir Charles Grey, late a Member of that House, said
the medical art, which was ene of the most useful and en-
nobling professions, was, in the present application of it in
the army, degraded. Medical men were called on to determine
the extreme limits of human suffering, and te decide what
amount of punishment could be endured without exhausted na-
ture sinking under the infliction. The late Sir Samuel
Rornilly, in speaking on this question, said, the surgeon had to
determine the extreme verge of human resistance under punish-
ment. The surgeon had to feel the pulse of the victim, and to
declare when he considered exhausted nature could no more
resist the punishment, and was only permitted to take the poor
wretch from the halberts when the soul was about to take it, de-
parture from the lacerated body.—( Hear, hear.) He would
not go at any length into the case which had occupied the at-
, tion of the publie so much of late, if not their indignation.
That case had, no doubt, been the main cause of the changes
that were now proposed. He believed that the colonel of the
regiment was an average sample of the gallant officers in the
army, and what did he say on the subject of flogging ? He
supported it, because, according to his own words:le had,
when a boy, received a " Devilish good flogging." Such were
the words attributed to him, which he believed to be correctly
reported ; at least, this expression had not been denied by
.the
gallant officer. During the whole progress of the investiga-
tion, the subject of corporal punishment was talked of very
lightly indeed. He observed a very considerable differ-
ence in the army. He found one stating that
the punishment was inflicted in the usual manner,
and another saying that such was not the fact.
He did not doubt that the death of White would lead to the
entire abolition of the punishment of flogging in the army.
He woulii read for them the verdict of a British jury on the
late inquest. The Hon. Member then read the verdict. This
matter of flogging might be summed up in a few words. A
man was put to death who was not condemned to death.—
( Hear, heir.) The British Parliament could not pass over
this ease quietly. Now these other cases had occurred within
the last few days, and he held in his hand an account of the
flogging of two men at Devonpert. Now if this system could be
defended, it must be because it produced good effects. But gofer
from this being the case, all authorities concured in the opinion
that its results were most degrading, deplorable, and ineffective
Mr. 51-Pherson of the 9th Foot, says, " After the experience of
thirty-one years, in which I have been called upon to witness
many scenes of military flogging, I have no hesitation in saying
that. I never knew a single instance of a bad character being
reformed by it, and beg to express my firm belief that any mode
of punishment is better than corporal punishment." And what
said Dr. Vvse on the subject, "The lash used judicially, is a
virulous thing; self-exposure is the loss and the ruin of many a
man ; it has destroyed many gallant spirits, but it has reformed
none. The heart which might have been contrite before this
public disgrace will be contrite no longer. A spirit of malig-
nity and disaffection takes the place of subordination. The
man feels he has been disgraced before his comrades. Flog-
ging makes the youthful man a coward, and renders him more
reckless in his conduct. The system of flogging should he ex-
punged from the rules of the army; if that were done it would
soon be seen that this mode of castigation was productive of no
benefit." Sir Charles Brookes says, " I have seen many
hundred men flogged, and I have seen when the skin
is thoroughly cut up and completely flayed off.
that the great pain subsides, and the poor man bears the re-
mainder of his sentence without a groan. They lie motion-
less, as if they were without life, and the drummers continue to
ply as though they were flogging a lump of dead flesh. The
soldiers look on with disgust—a low whispering sound, scarcely
audible, is heard issuing from the scene—sounds which rise
from lips which speak not, but produced by " hearts which
feel !'" Now, continued the Hon. Member, was that a state of
things to be encouraged, and to be allowed to exist in the
army. In " The Sketches and Tales of a Soldier's Life,"
there was this passage :—" I have known," says the old sol-
dier, " whole regiments demoralised by this system of flogging,
in a particular corps which came under my observation, and
which, for some time, bore the nickname of ' the bloody regi-
ment.' " The consequence was, that all sense of shame was lost
among the men. One blackguard used to make it his boast
that he had received 1,000 lashes upon the back, upon the
calves of his legs, and in the fleshy parts of his thighs ; and he
who could boast the greatest number of lashes considered him-
self the most honourable soldier. "—( Laughter.) If such be the
effect upon the spectators, and if this be•the effect on the suf-
ferers, could any other conclusion be come to than
that it tended to cause the brutalisation of
their army? qe had heard it remarked that the
French drummer had a bold dignified air, and presented a very
marked contrast to the English drummer, who was called upon
to inflict that punishment. He had received several touching
letters from private soldiers, expressing a strong feeling of
disgust against the system. He had also received commu-
nications from officers to this effect That blessed would be
the day when this punishment would be taken out of their
hands " One old Belcher said. " Give us the punishment of
death in addition to that of flogging, for by giving greater
;„11;,,ticii of this punishment." Lord W. Bentinck, whose
opinion was highly creditable to him, said " that in proportion
as corporal punishment was diminished, and as the soldier was
treated more like a rational being than a brute, his own pre-
judices as to flogging had given way." Sir C. Napier had
given a similar opinion, and stated that if minor rewards were
substituted corporal punishment might be abolished." This
system of tinging, which was so much cherished by their
country, had been ahandoned by all the civilised countries of
Europe, and he was bound to ask if there was something so
base and brutal its British blood that it was only by such treat-
ment that British soldiers could be subjected to proper discipline?
The number of the French army was 317 675, while only
4,367 were punished, being lin 70. Out of this army of
nearly 320,000 men, there were only 102 condemned to death,
and of these only five were executed, and all these five had
committed murder, and would have died by the civil law of
England. The whole of the punishments in that army were
I 2,028; of these 243 were punished with labour, 220 were
punished with hard labour, 419 were sent to the public works,
and four were fined. The number of punishments in the Fret ch
army averaged only one per cent., while in the British army
the floggings were one per cent., and the general punishments
were eight per cent., thus giving an average of nine to one
against the British army. This was according to the reports of
1834. In the American army, according to the work of Dr.
Southey, in Esprela's Letters, among a people of similar charac-
ter and blood to of rselves, flogging had been abolished thirty
years ago, and it was evident that public opinion would soon put
an end to it in this country. The punishment might be pro
longed service, diminished pension, or severe imprisonment—
anything but this brutality. The press had lent invaluable aid
to the destruction of this intolerable abuse and abomination.
Even the most strenuous Conservatives had agreed that flogging
must be abolished in the British army. If a better
class of men were desirable for the army, let them
be obtained; let an army be obtained which would not require
the aid of such brutal inflictions. Let any thing be done to
save the country from the imputation of this abomination. It
was satisfactory to hear that the flogging was now in the pro-
portion of Ito 19.) of the number of the army. In 1826 and
1827 it was as one in 50. The punishments now inflicted
were of a lighter character, and yet the condition of the army
was more satisfactory. This punishment was also more on the
decrease in the Colonies, anti yet was the army in the Colonies
less efficient. Dr. Ferguson said that within the last half
century the lash was in universal requisition ; it was supposed
that the whip-cord formed the soldier, The result was that
the British soldier was, when discharged, a ruffian—than
whom no one more dangerous could be received into the bosom
of the country. The experiment of diminished punishment
was at length tried, and the public opinion was brought to bear
on its cruelty. The lash was diminished and the result was a
tenfuld better condition of the army. He could not but believe
that the Noble Lord had been temporarily overruled ; and
with regard to any opposition he might have met with at the
Horse Guards, he hoped that the Noble Duke, having made so
great a coneeesion to the public, would at length abolish the
small remnant of the evil. The cfficers who inflicted these punish-
ments were not themselves visited by it. Scenes of drunkenness
were not uncommon amongst them, and yet whet was called
their human weakness was visited upon the rank and file by
the lash. He would ask that, without reserve and hesitation,
the House would agree with him in the resolution that flogging
should be now once and for ever abolished.--( Cheers. ) -
Mr. H. BERKELEY, in seconding the motion, said that it
was not without some hesitation he consented te do so. When
a civilian rose on a question I.ke the present he generally met
that kind of derision and sneering which had marked this ques-
tion from its commencement. He now rejoiced to find that it
was the intention of her Majesty's Government to take up
this subject, and that the edict for the modification of punish-
ment had gone forth front head-quarters. When he turned to
the debates which had taken place on this subject, he found the
same remarkable feature which was to be observed in debates
on all questions of reform, viz., argument met by dictatorial
assertions, which carried with it the majority. He could see
no difference in the ancient evil of the torture and the present
system of flogging, except that one was inflicted
as a punishment and the torture was inflicted for
the purpose of forcing the truth from a witness. He
thought that the torture of the steel boot, with its
horrible wedges, had a fair rival in the modern infliction of the
lash. When it was proposed to do away with the torture it
was slid that law and justice would be done away with, and in
the present age it was said that the army could not be ruled
without the lash. It was well known that in different institu-
tions different punishments existed, and would any man say
that the gallant French army was not as well disciplined as
our own ? He thought that there was too much distance placed
between the private and the officer in the English army. He
might say in the words of the bard of Elizabeth,
That in the captain's but a choleric word
Which in the soldier is flat blasphemy."
In the English army a man was thought to be a man of honour
and any officer who received a blow was considered to be so
degraded that he must either lose his commission or wipe out
the insult by a bloody remedy. A private soldier they allowed
might be a man of honour, and yet he was compelled to re-
ceive any number of blows. That man might afterwards, by
some fortuitous circumstances, rise to a commission,
andY
having been flogged as ithout mercy while a private soldier, a
blow inflicted upon him as an
_officer was considered as a gross
and glaring insult upon him. He objected to the lash, because
he believed the lash to a man not perfectly vicious was demo-
ralking, and
,to a man perfectly vicious it was, he feared, of
little or no use.
Colonel PEEL said his own opinion, acquired duringsevere years' service in some of the best disciplined regiments, was
that corporal punishments were absolutely necessary, The
power of inflicting it was necessary for colonels of regiments,
who Were Obliged to retain in their regiments men of the worst
possible characters. With regard to what had latch- taken
place at Hounslow, it was, he thought, most unfair to attempt
to attach a stigma to individuals in consequence of the inflic-
tion of these punishments unless it could be proved that they
had exceeded their duty. From the moment that the first ac-
count of that flogging appeared in the papers, Colonel Whyte
was assailed by every abuse that calumny could invent or false-
hood furnish. Colonel Whyte h, d little more to do with the
punishment of that unfortunate man than he ( Colonel Peel)
had, and he certainly had as little power to remit the sentence,
or any part of it. From the moment the case was before the
Horse Guards it was entirely taken out of his hands; and had

the commanding officer been absent the witnessing of the idles
tion of the petits/mimes steels! have devolved au seteeteels vials
and would have proceeded precisely in the same manner. With
reference to the said case of punishment, the statement that a
man had been flogged for saying " hollo" to his sergeant had
never been contradicted, and he would undertake to contradict
it. The man had previously been confined for misconduct, and
had been warned against a repetition. His answer to the ser.
geant was in an insolent tone, and it was well known that a
man might be insubordinate and insolent without saying a
word. It was for this insubordination that the man was
punished, and that punishment was necessary to keep up the
discipline of the army.
Mr. WILLIAMS said, he heard the statements of the.
Noble Lord with great regret, and he was sorry that he should
have taken shelter behind the back of the Commander-in-
Chief. The Duke of Wellington had not the power to apply
the lash to the back of a soloier any more than the merest
corporal in the army. The power was vested in the Queen,
and given to her expressly by Parliament, with the strict pro.
vino that it should not affect life and limb. It was most unjust
to throw the responsibility upon the Duke of Wellington. It
lay entirely with her Majesty's Ministers and advisers. They
d
ought to have a definition of the cat-o'-nine-tails, for they had
it in evidence before them that fifty lashes were equal to one
hundred , and wherefore would be the use of limiting the nolo;
ber, when the mode of giving the punishment could be varied
almost illimitably ? There ought to be a responsibility some"
where for the death of the man. The law did not allow that
life or imb should be affected ; but was that carried out? No;
and if there was a responsibility laid upon some pers°°,
it would go far to remove the dangers of the infliction of
this punishment, if it was still to be continued.--( Hear,
hear.) Napoleon was as good a soldier as the Duke of Wei'
lington, and he abolished the punishment of flogging.
AN Hoer. MEMBER---No, no. It was the Convention.
Mr. WILLIA US—Well, the Prussian army does not alloy;
this punishment ; it does not exist in the French army. and
where can yon tied better armies in the world ? near;
hear.) There was a frightful power also vested in captains 0'
ships, who could give forty-eight laehes, a number which is
the navy fully equalled one hundred in the army. It was not
to be endured that the punishment should be continued, air
he called upon her Majesty's Government to reconsider their
determination.
Captain LAYARD said that he was not disappointed i°
the course adopted by the Government, and he rejoiced that
the principle had beer. so fully recognised that corporal punish"
ment might be wholly done away with. He formerly was sn
advocate of corporal punishment in the army, but he had
changed his opinion even long before it was at all populer t°
attempt to meddle with the discipline of the army. But he
now believed that public opinion had now set in so strongll
that it would be impossible to stem the time. He was coo"
vineed that her Majesty's Ministers had used great exertions
to introduce this change among the heads of the army.
Mr. FOX MAUL E— Oh no, no, by no means.
Captain L &YARD —Well, it seemed that it was not so, but
he would say that it was a very late conversion. If he were
private soldier he would much rather be shot than fiegged.--•
( Hear, hear.) (Mr. Fox Maule shook his head.) The Hon.
Member shakes his head. Good God 1 would it not be much,
better ? who would not prefer to be shot through the head
than be flogged and die in a week? The-Hon. Member then
adverted to the fast that flogging had been abolished in India
under Lord W. Bentinck.
An Hoer. 111Emnisit —Oh, it has been restored.
Captain LAYA RD was sorry to hear it, but it was an answer f
to the objection that they could not restore the punishment '
they once al olished it.—( Hear, hear ) He was convinced
s
that the army could not be held together if they continued the
system. Twenty lashes was the utmost that could be given ju
the Russian army.
Lord J. RUSSELL—On what authority do you state that
it is authentic?
Captain LAYARD—He could assure the Noble Lord that
• he would not bring anything before the House which was net
so. He held in his hand the testimony of Dr. Marshall, fate
the truth of his assertion, and the fact was very well knovrni
(Hear, hear.) And they were in England engaged at that
a
moment discussing the clemency which reduced the puniso_
merit from 150 lashes to 50—(Hear, hear, and cheering);
when in Russia there could only be twenty lashes inflicte2
and that as a maximum of purishment. The Honourable
Member then read an anecdote of a soldier, who, being COi:
demised to death for a mutiny, obtained leave of his command
ing-officer to ge to Glasgow to transact SOT e private busines,
and gave himself up at the end of the time to meet his fate.
o
The man was not executed, the lot of death having fallen
one of his comrades. The Hon. Member then read several ttat
tracts to prove that it was impossible for the medic
man to be certain in his opinion, or answerable the
for .
lite of a man who should only receive fifty lashes. The o°°
Member also read an opinion from Sir John Cam Hohholl:
in 1827, in which he said that flogging ought to be abolishing
and that the custom rendered our army, instead of bent "
before, second to the French. The principle of enlistreer
ought to be changed, and if it was so they would have n°
cessity to continue corporal punishment. lgoble
Mr. NEVILLE had listened to the speech of the
if
Lord at the head of the Government upon this subject, 01
he might be allowed to make a remark upon it, he woo' ,:00.
that he was sorry it had not gone further in the rightclirer',diee
When he heard so much laid upon the condition of the 0' the
he could not refrain calling the attention of the .House tO crbs
case of the military knights of Windsor, whom he the is
were not sufficiently cared for by the Government of s"
country.
Colonel REID said that he could not shrink from the be
formance of a public duty on the present occasion ;tbas
served in her Majesty's army for thirty years, and
se to
nothing but an imperative sense of duty had induced moles.'
come to the c inclusion that- at the present moment corpoli.
punishment could not be done away with in the army.
thought that different degrees of crime deserved different the
grees of punishment, and the soldier who could rob from
box of his comrade, who slept near him, deserved greater
puni,hmsnt than the man who had been guilty of nothing mot:
the
than a mere neglect of duty. Punishment by flogging
of army had the effect also of preventing the commission o
among the other soldiers of the regiment. Imprisonment t 30',
reliefno pu ncrioshmmtehnetiratal
duties;lit was t lookedhadnoutpotnhebysatmhee meneffen
tasnaposno tLO,4
individual as upon that of the civilian; corporal punishment_
.1!
on account o
the contrary hadf th e a
physicalmoral ieefffleicett,i
eaen. and theHe badthought soldierit vfeerayreedui;
to inflame the public mind upon this subject, and lead theta
with
away by false statements of the abhoretice and disgust
m
which soldiers viewed the infliction of corporal punishment.
r - that. i.. di, di my a system was pursued
• some years since, by which the soldiers themselves held a
court-martial on any man who might have committed any
action that was considered disreputable to the regiment, and
had power to inflict a corporal punishment on the offender.
In the regiment to which he belonged (one of the regiment'
the Household troops), but two cases of flogging had tatrif
place fora number of years ; one of them was for theft, e:gra
the offender had been handed over to the
power he would have been transported for
effect
That sentence was not, however, carried into but
by his consent ; he had tried to prevent the inflictiout the
the Commander-in-Chief refused to interfere with gee,
sentence. It was accordingly carried into
ne:ture
and since that time not a single crime of that
best
had taken place. (Hear, hear.) He thought the
_toy
course which could be adopted with reference to the
tebem
• would be to try to raise their moral position, and give„ech a
the means of recreation, amusement, and education. ' the
course had been p ,
roductive of most beneficial resolt'"ed
regiment to which he had the honour to belong. "e
established libraries for the use of the soldiers, som,e,gn,„ ha
ilhad
had been obtained at Windsor for their use, and but
endeavoured to establish savings' banks in the regimen' the
they had failed, because the soldiers were afraid that knowledge of their savings would get to the Governoleoa
and they might then snake an attempt to reduce their Pi,
m a
With regard to the personal comfort of the soldier, he 7,10
state that he had not the common means of washing *nimse'yeo,
he felt that he ought not to be punished if he was found hso
cient in cleanliness on parade. There were no less t
twenty or thirty nen crowded together in the o'
sleeping-room ; and, in addition to the want of esoe
-lea so
liness which this produced, it was destructive
os
health.—( Hear, hear.) The atmosphere of such rooms
positively deleterious, and day after day his heart was made 51.;it
at the scenes which he witnessed. With regard to dischargeere
he thought that soldiers should obtain them before they woo
worn out, and made unfit for all civil employment. It watiwith
bad, that at the end of their service they were sent away man
only a pension of 6d. per day. There was the case of 'tea for
who had served 21 years, and an opportunity having offer to
his obtaining a good situation, he (Col. Reid) advised 1,1"-sub,
apply for his discharge, and after a correspondence 00 the rid
ject, it was refused by the Secretary at War, on the greties
that there was no special reasons to justify it. The situtout
was afterwards filled up, and the man becoming invalided a joe,
a year atterwards, he was discharged with a full Peinb'oes
which would have been avoided if his application had
granted.
Mr. B. OSBORNE had listened with some alien
to the statements which had been made on this su"tin-Po
but he could not agree in the opinion that the time had :-that
when flogging should be abolished. It was not necessary the
the raw-bone style of oratory should be employed to depict
cruelties of this system. He held that the question should
regarded not only as to its effect on the army, but also °v -re
ciety. He was afraid that he would not please the admire
of William 111., when he stated that the pugishment originat
with that great commander. It had always been the custout
select the lowest grade of society for the army, and that beg!:
so, it required them to be cautious in taking away
punishment before they got the army recruited from a Os oa
class. He objected to the introduction of solitary confinetef
into the army, as he hid known several instances in whio,:of
had been of the greatest injury. Lord Bexley
prayed the Legislature to abolish the solinicii
system in the Milbank Penitentiary, and to introtlit
corporal punishment in its stead, it h.id been found so 10
jurious. He would next refer to the abolition of flogging 'd
the French army. It was abolished in 1794 ; but what hiss
been the punishments awarded in its stead ? Why, in tent
army there were forty-fivehear.) offHeencethsofuogrhwtheisoliggthine,pus:l2l:biVere..bC
was death.—( Hear,
better than such a state of things._( Hear,-he'ar. ) Thieog
was
ttbhen some
best
pu kindni g
homf
einstantaneous
,nwdafiantdeccdeath
punishment and ,md
woab
common use
sdaual°o
grg:,.;:ed- a
stoh
forln thetr
striking
gneahn
officer,army the
while punishmentthere
olefgthoef the party, with 40'3
twaacshicnagliaedeanthneenp.ubnahshtmoetnhte
which
had to move about for twelve ear 1p
Jere was another
was his answer to the Hon.
(Mr. Osborne) joined issue w
the French service. T
ber for Coventry. He
Honourable Member that the t that
did not think wot-seepalb.irs
Far from it. Considering the privaticnssolliderad wtoasundere'tjee
with
k Member
the fo r Cllpeoyoneion:juttrroayanbrir.f!We :1121
job
0.
great exertions, and his having to leave a life of coniPtarecin
tirtue for that of military strife, he thought the °-
00°
soldier was most inadequately rewarded. He was paid I
than any husbandman, and it would be impossible to rneet.
good body of soldiers until a reform was made in this re,„ner, of
There ought to be every encouragement for a higher cb7r-re-
recruits, and for that purpose they should give hwe ig b
ward. With regard to flogging, he agreed to some exterlexter.‘
the Hon. Member for Bolton, but not to the whole on.
He was not for the entire abolition of flogging like that
Gentleman. He (Mr. Osborne) considered that
..00 of
punishment should be retained, and a limited apeseatit„ she
flogging was he thought best for this purpose, and such wd as an
opinion of Sir Samuel Romily, who had been Oluiteqaesuel
authority on the other side of the question. Both Sir ow
Romily and Mr. Wilberforce took that view of the 'cal
there idlers
tion. It was their opinion that
another party to be consulted as well as the sl`ti they
and that was the civilian.—( Hear, hear.) What o°u it of
think, if in the line of march the soldiers were to coin
flagrant breach of discipline, and there was no instanntanonerere
punishment of this kind to appeal to? He would, up for
existing circumstances, vote with the Hon. Member,d still
Bolton, though he thought the power of flogging s_lteof 010
be retained on a line-of-battle march. In the eve,' sto
motion failing, then he would propose the motion ad laid
limitation of flogging, according to the principles he ,a
down, and of which he had given notice.—( Hear.) tior, re-
Cap,ain LA YARD offerod a few words of explarr!.....ris be
specting an alleged discrepancy between certain by to
hail quoted from, and which had also been referred T.O
1100. Member ahn is-t addres-ed the House.
Mr. FOX MAULS said the Hon. Member who had P 4
sat down had made a most conclusive speech in favour of the
y retention of the power of inflicting corporal punishment
in
the hands of the military authorities, yet he concluded eluded b
ji 01 t d
on
daring that he would vote with the Hon. Member

thook-ht ballad shown thatAunjustifleAl in, making the,
h rice he did, but it was said Mr. Wilson, being a friend of his,
he bad opportunities of speaking to that gentleman neon the
matter and biasing hie judgment. Now the fact was, he never
exchanged a sentence with Mr. Wilson on the subject, nor did
he know what Mr. Wilson's opinion was, or Mr. Wilson his
own opinion upon it, till after the inquiry.—( Hear, hear. ) It
was quite true that Dr. Hall, Dr. Reid, and Dr. Warren and
Mr. Day expressed an opinion different to Mr. Wilson ; but
did they dispute the discoveries made by that gentleman ?
( Hear, hear.) Did they dispute the change in the position of
the muscles?—(Hear, hear.) Did they dispute that there was
a pulpy matter surrounding the muscles, or did they dispute
that the muscles were in close proximity to extremely inflamed
parts of the body ?—( Hear, hear.) No ! they did not. Well,
then, let them remember that Mr. Wilson expressed a positive
opinion on the subject, and gave it as his conviction that the
flogging was the cause of death.—( Hear, hear.) Could the
jury do otherwise than rely upon such practical and impartial
authority as this. The jury agreed with Mr. Wilson, and
it was his conviction that they were perfectly right.—f Hear,
hear.) Now this brought him to the question immediately
before the House. The Noble Lord prnpesed to limit the
number of lashes to 50, but there were circumstances under
which the 50 m'ght be as severe as 200.—( Hear.) Of what
length was the cat to be ?—( Hear, hear.) Of what weight ?
What kind of thong ? How many knots was it to have ?
What time was the punishment to take up ? ( Hear, hear.)
These were things which had not been taken into considera.
tion, arid if they were not carefully regulated, the 50 lashes
might be unfortunately worse than 100.—( Hear, hear.)
The subject connected with the influence which external in-
juries involved on the interior of the body had undergone
much attention of late, but it seemed to be an established rule
in the army that flogging could never cause death.—(Hear,
hear.) A rule which, in his opinion, was in oppocitton to
every principle of common sense.—(Oh, oh l) He said that
was his opinion, and let him remark that he Ihd no motive for
doing so.— (Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman
having alluded to two cases which had recently occurred,
where a slight skin injury had produced inflammation of
the chest, which resulted in death, went on to
say, the importance of the skin had hitherto been overlooked,
and it was now tolerably certain that many persons had died
from injuries to the skin, without the cause of death ever being
discovered.—(Hear, hear.) It was said, however, that the
surgeon ought to exercise caution, and take especial care to
discover whether the man were in a condition to be punished.

Torg:0! 0014,0610%1 OS-WO :a tkessfes• the abolition
to sp. Ile thought it would be a dencsercitis rtes
t it altogether, and film he inconsistently propose:(
titration
motion to that effect. The question under consi. •
„'ration was at all times a disegreeable one, and one on which
luneyse who advocated corporal punishments could not compete
ieb!ttileet.tageoui„ with
isa tnose who took the posular view of the
h Every attempt was made to ,irees up such cases, and harrow UP the feelings of the public. He admitted that
Ailment by the lash', to the exti nt to which it had hitherto
ell
carried out, was most revolting, and could only be
justi-
ht bY the sternest necessity. But Hon. Gentlemen who
seetight forward and supported the motion for its abolition,
ssuleed to give tbemselva s no concern as to what would be
kultffieient substitute if they took it away. In that respect he
ditt beg leave to differ with them, when they proposed to
ttib the system hitherto in operation. It was right that
~oet/iia,hould propose the substitution of some other system that
air,„4 be equally, if not more efficacious. —( Hear. 1 The public.
se had been Much excited by the late unfortunate occur-
%gee at Hounslow. Had it. not been for that, so satisfied ware
tetthat the Government and all those in civil and mili
14ti"th°rity were desirous to do everything to improve the.
ks, '4 of the soldier that he b 'levet, ne notice of the question
sew_tuider consideration would have been taken in the present
Isdrl of Parliament. As it was, this occurrence taking place.
tseet,en most unfortunate, as likely to erercise, by t he excite-
4rvieit had produced, an injurious effect on the members of the
test'', With reference to that occurrence he must say, that
the 'nlustice had been done to the commanding officer, a d
4, Other officers of the Hussars.—( Hear, hear.) They had
hi soubjected to unmerited obloquy ; and if it had occurred
to 1;f, other regiment, where character did not stand
iers,lllsgiu as that of the . 7th Hussars, it might have
that 'Y affected its discipline. He had great confidence in
kid er4,asiment, and he wished to make it known that the officers
of ;t bore a most exemplary character in the
tilt, dtts
ea
aors itnwhich they had been previously placed. He would
tettea note to that effect, which he had received from the
then °t the parish. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read
ths°tet Which was to the effect, that during a twelvemonth
lied•eginient had been stationed there, both officers and men
irsPibited the best general good conduct. Not one case of
qrahl ity or irregularity had taken place.—( Hear, hear.)
litepte was the character which the regiment bore; and he
hte,,regretted to read in the public papers that several pri-
test lad been called on to give
.evid.ence, the purport of which
sots. lead to a further inveitigation, for the matter couldl
toeli allowed to rest there.--( Hear, hear.) This was a 1 he
hoe sal concerning that civil investigation, and he would
test4ne back to the real question. The Hon. Member for
toss Wished to deprive the officers of all power of inflicting
Well', Punishment. Now, to meet the objections that ha('
fosse to the present system, the Government, with the
°W„Ilt t't the commanding officer, admitting that the death
rho 401 Person at Hounslow had resulted front the flogging,
dfeer that, he would observe, was contary to the evi-
the t'sf all the military officers examined, had caused
Lhe "ils,_°,lect to be brought under the consideration of
the srstuinander-in Chief, the Duke of Wellington.
teeth. main,
of Wellington immediately said " this shall not
4111 slain, and though flogging cannot be dispensed with,
'tlitebs'all not sanction any punishment to the injury of life
kept The Duke of Wellington suggested that the punish-
,B"cild be reduced to fifty lashes, and he (Mr. F. Maule)
gad "are that if he was to go as far back as his Hon. Friend
brett?tie, iu the military authorities quoted by him as to the
MoteitY of military punishment, they would all be found to
let; Government fif lashes was no punishment at all. Her tone, had, however, come to the determination
tokirwee the number of lashes, and to adopt that as the
torsi having determined, at the same time, to endeavour
ski !se the character of the British soldier as far as possible ;
Serallu hope that the epoch would come when, though eor-
the' Pniushment
unused in the British arm--( Hear,ry hear.)
iteie°4summation, however, he would say, which, if looked for,
h, to be, sought only by means dictated by sound discretion,
si'es.sYsterta of sound discipline, and of rewards in the case of
sh_rlt• But, he said, he might be asked by those who were
z..rPosed
.to all corporal punishment, what their object was in
etaining•this system of corporal punishment. Those who
2.e against it might say that they maintained, from antiquated
?lions, that they could not do without it. Now, he said, he
labouring under no antiquated notion when he supported
117,4tliminished quantity of corporal punishment ? It was very
ral for those who were not acquainted with the British
t7iY to talk with a feeling generosity about the system of
,720ral punishment. They ought to recollect that the British
1;1 existed by the strictest obedience being rendered by the
%ler to the colonel, the captain to the major, the lieutenant to
the ,P,tain, and so on down to the corporal and the private in
die,;a4s ; the efficiency of the army depended on the obe-
ts,te of inferiors, and that on the discipline which was main-
tlle:u. If they should abolish this system of discipline—if
the di to support the officers in their attempt to maintain
they'sciPline of the army, it would come at last to this, that
tioe.ewould not get men from the ranks to take promotion as
citestunanssioned officers—(Hear, hear)—and a man in the-c
1411 Tstances would say to his superior officer, " It is all verb
%tree me to have stripes on my arm, but if I am to be
Rhos itio the breast with a poker by any worthless vagabond
etas ss.urn talking to him of matters of duty, no respectable
Iles,e't(lit take such a situation." lie said then, before the ,
lathe s.ePrived military tribunals of that which was necessary
ken "tsotpline of the army, especially in times of war, the}
of substitute something else. But he supported the propo ai
Achess9"ernneent on another ground, the protection which
tileseitig, to the British public. The Government was
they°le,7 with maintaining the discipline of tne army. Now if
t;btitislsidered n t I the üblic expectation as to the army
tsloke;4ll,l he woellonreygulatepd, but if they considered the
Which existed in this country as to a standing
Ittbtelestkil,ttthey must see the urgent necessity of discipline, a,
them
,4,141 e public would have men billited upon them both
Trteter and also without any discipline to control
rNs terstil on. Member had male an exception in favour of
as ,t'srte"4, ithixtent when the soldier was on the march, but
elatasti at to • n, cases would occur when he must be made
ss'rinless I,°f. 'to- deter others from
.cominittin.g the sam
Thethin 'to the condition of the soldier, he said, perhaps,
Yet be (leg 4 been done, and perhaps very much more might
litlbjenne,; but at present he would say nothing on that, as
;,'"erare "s onnected therewith required mature con-
eels tiii-ar% were well worthy of atteution, and would receive it
prison
eefe"ls'rernment. Means had been used, and with some
yrisolt dctt to substitute in part a sound system of
'BeiPline for corporal punishment. There were nine
tour • Y Prianns in Great Britain and Ireland ; four in England
tee...,41 Ireland, and one in Scotland. During the last 14
he number the number of prisoners had been 476, of whomv. onlyno
less sh been subjected to corporal punishment, receiving
24 an 100 lashes, whereas, henceforth,. then streeesthoelsenuegiedstbae
The Whole of those committedcteojrisope,
34 r cent. He had
sidilsrminents were opened, chdvneso,t e
thxat theireeeived their men
La., °llln the officers them
betterse men than they were before. He
hi from these prisons
tradnecnh had been done for the soldier, and much more had
d h private to behave himself. It had been
flidof the good-conduct money, that the soldier was unable to
riitsl the influence, and would not avail himself of it.
le said, that since January, 1845, thirty non-commissioned
L ueers had received commissions, and that allowances had
4so made them of 100/. in the infantry, and 1501. in the
taley.—( Hear, hear.) Ag in, savings' banks had been
v,tablished in the army, and they showed how the soldier
)t,ld avail himself of their advantages. In March 1814.
ere were 1,890 depositors, and a sum of 15,0; 0/. ; next
the depositors had increased to 3,414, and the amount
00.000/. The returns for the present year had not yet
1711 all received, but such as they had got in led them con-
}4ut.ly to expect that there would be a considerable increase,
tdepositors and money. He said, though they continued
1 punishments, when they had instructed the soldier
!,duty, and encourged him in doing it—when
had made use of these two means, he
hopesdes that the lash would be unused end fell of itself into
ih.uetude. But if, he said, the House took on itself to pass
ti,tbuiotion, and to say that this mode of discipline should cease,
au- 'louse took up on itself all the responsibility, weighty as it
tilt; :4,deprivinosthrough a good but mistaken feeling, themili-
ththiinals of this necessary power to maintain the discipline
sir arm .
/Z k;'
NAPIER said he felt compelled to give his opposi-
-0 the Mot. after the declaration of the Noble Lord
ItltiPtitashmenitonshould'be reduced to 50 lashes, he wool' feel
wile rise if it should be pressed. He world ask the Hon. Gentlemanf
h
liktlsPrnPosed to abolish corporal punishment altogether, tH
he
o,ver read the dispatches of the Duke of Wellington?
th%
kasser read how that Noble Duke, who commanded one of
essiri armies in the world, had stated that after a victory he
litt:inot control any soldier? He (Sir C. Napier) remem-
Ues' °nee in the Peninsular war, in a Portuguese town, there
estleh & devastation as it would he impossible to describe.
IlSoi3•:se occasion the Duke of Wellington had found it neceds-
ktowlOrder som of those who served under him to be hange .
levet?s" should like to know, whenit was necessary to make so
11,0.4 4.° example, how it was possible to act when there was .
"41111,'iPline whatever? He trusted, therefore, that the Hon.
es,"'" would withdraw his motion.
`ite "AKLEY said he must confess that he felt surprised,
,therwhat had transpired, that the punishment by flogging in
I.4lltitY was not to be immediately abolished. Public
t, and Was in favour of that course, public judgment supported
t4lO. urn",Psublie opinion demanded it.—( Hear, hear.) He could
Cs es„'s",e Hou,e from his own personal observstion, that on
t."1111:1",lect there was a stronger feeling abroad. than on the
-awss and that that opinion must be given way to. The
hißht Hon
Id excuse his adverting to some of
tt4 poirit. • Gentlemat?
in the on this question." In the first place it was assumed
'lel re Was something wrong in the proceedings that had
to gleekea. place, because some private soldiers were allowed
Now he would beg to
tits their evidence on that case.
°r ,5,,-;"at when he went to Hounslow that there was nooffer
Alinvestigation,
"-ven lh'iss by the authorities in this
Qsir it was even stated that thet e was no necessity for
the and
ile by some parties that flogging, had no reference to
rose ,% that had taken place. The consequence was the
‘'4d. t is Court derived no benefit from any assistance of that
tither4l _s h.erel ire he thought it better to plac
eau the hands of a private corporal (Mr. Lawreoce)e ,
Vitt V"1 there was no more efficient officer. The verdict
ases
'ere '"itist the majority of the medical evidence. Now,
ed
ttAt ''ere five
N lb„ „ medical witnesses
, but was what had been
1,.7 three of these gentlemen to be relied upon? With-
its,tees, truing the body, without making a complete ens!
strr liiination of the.body, they had stated their opinion.
the Right Hon. Gentleman,
Oirere.,, is information that
ets hi used the subject on the Monday after, was induced to
at ‘,Nkissa"t&ternent. Under these circumstances what beceu.,
jags
for him but to cause an inquiry to
10 ."." and he bing referred to had selected Dr. Erasmus
tile Kos for •
stesse
...tat purpose. Now he thought it right to inform
tlst. toe 0; 0 that gentleman was. Mr. Erasmus Wilson was
pgt~th • a naval surgeon, who served fifteen years at sea
4.‘e war* In 18'15 his medical education commenced
he vies e`'bernethy, Bartholemew's Hospital.
.In 1826.
t sat e n°4Be pupil to Mr. Langstaff, where he enjoyed un-
-I,,DP°rtunitieso f seing. and assisting
.in. surgical etipi‘eriare.
'angu gsPecting bodi s and studying morbid anaw
aff bei e
it,the ng surgeon of the parish of CripplegateWithout,
cee, 29 Possessor of an excellent pathological
oseeti he
s was 'e enea in urt p 'ts of l pce,
museum. In
Asa opera7tiv-z ede surthegery' insu Paris, 1n.1830 heracti was
441,)othecaer Feneral practice by passing the examination of the
"'Press; les Company. In 1831 he became qualified for su_rgi-
12111hs -eishimpari3ng the examinationt. of the College of Sur-
th.'c4,Pacities 5, he engage( in the University College
died ho
prosector to Dr. 9uai
room, as well as private t dernoinss3tr4athoer
u at
on rd.
in Heidelberg,
toe), in e iisactice during the summeref
sar ond'o6.
.delivered a course lectures on aria-
% teheo,. Physiology in the Blenheim .street
d anstom'y Inh
.1837, 38, became lecturer
ysiology 39,
.he
4,.."'hana and morbid an.atom in the
ritt6e% to the - go. In 1838 he was appointed con.sultine•
tit anat,,in St. Pancras Infirmary, and in 1840-46, lecturer"
parse% Y and physiology in the Medical School of the Mid-
p per
w:t.ospital. In 1840-42 he became sub-editor of the
5.511,,,,, with which he was connected, anti in 1843 he was elected
4645 h of the he
College of Surgeons of. England. In
of s Was et Royal
Fellow of the Royal Society, on aceount.
1;two paper Published• in the " Philosophical Transactions," and
tiael sZttbheorrpoarers, read before the society. Mr. Wilson was.
4nder.e, seven works on medical subjects, one cif which
these editions, and one two; of five papers 011
eis:b.jeets, published in the " Transactions of
t,')eitty•
01.nfic '. ties ;" two se pers read befer the Royal
,two articles in the " Cvelopmdia of Anatomy and
,ftto The felliewing it; x fud of Mr. Wilson's works.
eks.) ned Gentleman then read a list of Mr. Wilson's
4t.l.l_dy, a„,,ls,loevcthe,t gentleman had made cutaneous diseases his
ate °e wood ask where was a gentleman more aoin-
glve evidence on the subject of the inquest ?

(Hear, hear.) Now, was not this absurd ? What human skill
or ingenuity could discover the condition of the interior of the
body? Dis, aces might be lying dormant, whose existence the
medical officer would be ignorant of, and yet a single lash
might bring them into fresh action in the course of a few hours.
—( Hear, hear.) Well, then, he said their sentence of :50
lashes might end in death. They had already seen 150 pro-
duce that result, and it was notorious to medical men that a
single lash might produce a skin injury which would result
in death.—( Hear, hear.) Now, under these circumstances,
could the system be continued ? From the Noble Lord's
manner, he thought he was strongly opposed to the system, or,
t all events, not favourable to it. Now, if the House should
unfortunately reject the motion, he trusted the Noble Lord
would refer this matter, as a medical question, for the conside-
ration and decision, not of army or navy surgeons, but of the
First and most eminent anatomists and surgeons of the day.—
f Hear, hear.) If they did not report that 50 lashes, nay, even
one lash, would be dangerous to life, he never would address
the House upon the subject again.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. C. BERKELEY having been alluded to by the Hon.
Member for Finsbury, claimed it as a right, as an independent
Member of that House, to express his opinion as to the con-
duct which that Hon. Gentleman had lately pursued, in his capa-
city of Coroner for Middlesex.—( Hear, hear.) Now, what
were the facts of the case which the Honourable Gentleman
had brought before the House ? A death of a private soldier
in the 7th Hussars took place, and the Hon. Gentleman was
duly informed of it. He held an inquest as to the cause of the
death, and it was proved, upon the authority of four medical
men, including the surgeon of the army, who made a post-
wortein examinati, n of the body, that the flogging was not
the cause of death.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman,
not satisfied with the evidence, appointed another medical
gentleman to make an examination of the body, from which
he excluded the other four gentlemen. Now, if everything
was fair and above board, where was the necessity for this
-xclusion ?—( Hear, hear.) Over and over again had the
Hon. Member refused to hold his inquest on a murdered man
unless the murderer were present ; but in the present case he
would allow no officer to be present while the examii:atien
was being proceeded with, lest they should influence the
privates.
Mr. WA KLEY—That is not true.

Mr. C. BERKELEY said he would refer the Hon. Mem-
ber to the reports of the proceedings which had been pub-
lished from day to day in the public papers.—(Cheers.) With
espect to the main question he would say, in answer to the
Hon. Member for Bolton, that he knew the case of several per-
sons who had been flogged, and who were now most excellent
soldiers.
Mr. WAKLEY said the Hon. and Gallant Member had
brought several charges against him ; first, that he had ex-
e.!uded medical officers from the post mortem examination. I
did do so (said the Hon. Member), and I would do so again.—
( Cheers.) The Hon. Member seemed to have a strange notion
of justice, if he thought it was unjust in him to do so. They
had prejudged their case; they had come to the conclusion;that
death was not caused by the flogging, and he wanted to know
whether he would have been justified in permitting those three
persons to be present at this examination, after the intimation
xhich had been thrown out to him by the jury

They did not want to see any more, they had
discovered the cause of death. The rule which he adopted
was that usually acted upon in cases of this sort by the superior
courts ; nor was it out of any feeling of disrespect for those
Hon. Gentlemen that he would not permit them to be present
on the occasion referred to by the Hon. Member. Three ex-
,minations of the bo6ly were made. The first one by Drs.
!lall, Warren, and Reid. And it was not until he found that
he fourth person employed in the succeeding examination, Mr.
Day, had fallen into the same error as the preceding gentle-
men upon the subject—(lronical cheers)—that he had de-
,ermined to send for Mr. Erasmus Wilson to make a toore
complete examination of the body. On that occasion Mr. Day
was not excluded. He should have exposed himself to much
ibloquy if he had acted in any other manner than he had done.
rhe next charge brought against him was that contained in
!chat the Hon. Member called an excellent medical work.
Why, the article that the Hon. Member quoted from was
from the pen of a stupid lawyer, so little did the Hon. Member
know of the publication in question.--( Hear, hear.) He also
complained that upon former occasions he would not go en
with the inquest on a murdered man in the absence of the
murderer. Why the Hon. and Gallant Member must be aware
that there was no prisoner in the present case, or he might
rest assurred that he would have had him present, if he could
possibly have obtained his attendance.—(Cheers.) He had
-xpected this attack upon his conduct, and he had come down
prepared with ammunition, although he did not belong to the
military profession.—( Laughter, and cheers.) He had a letter
trom the solicitor approving of the course he had adopted.
Mr. C. BERKELEY rose to order, he did not think the
Hon. Member should be allowed to make a second speech.
Mr. WAKLEY insisted upon his right to be heard; serious
charges had been brought against him of Mr. Wilson's evi-
dence being shaped to order.
Mr. C. BERKELEY said it was net his charge.
_ .

Mr. WA KLEY—Th-2 Hon. Member had adopted them, and
he (Mr. Wakley) had instructed his solicitor to move fur a
criminal information on the subject of the paragraph. He was
going, however, to say that, if the solicitor was satisfied with
ms conduct (who was present during the whole of the pro-
ceedings), he thought that at least the Hon. and Gallant
Member, who was not present, might be satisfied upon the
subject. The Hon. Member then read a copy of a letter
from the solicitor, as follows :—" Dear Sir,—You request me
to state what was my impression of your conduct at the in-
quest held at Hounslow on the body of White, a private in the
7th Hussars. As I conclud,e your inquiry had reference only
o your own conduct upon the occasion, I have no hesitation
in saying that you allowed us to have any witnesses examined
which we pleased to offer, and allowed them to make any
stat ement which was desirable, and which the ends of justice
demanded ; your conduct during the investigation was marked
by extraordinary patience and ability." The Hon. Member
a'so read a letter from Mr. Trimmer, a magistrate of Hounslow,
to the same effect. He had also other letters from influential
parties of the same tendency, which he would read to the
douse if they wished.—(Cheers.) In conclusion, he hoped
he had satisfied the House that there had been nothing unfair
in his conduct during the whole of the proceedings.—(The
Hon. Member resumed hisseat amid loud cheers. )
Mr. C. BULLER said that he felt bound to say a few
words upon the subject before the House, with reference to the
proposition brought forward by the Noble Lord at the head of
he Government. The Hon. Member for Finsbury said that
it might be evaded by an alteration in the instrument of
torture, so that, though nominally the number of lashes might
he reduced to fifty, a severer punishment might be in-
flirted by tampering with the instrument, and thus by
fraud defeat the object proposed. He could state,
that in his communication with the Noble Duke, the greatest
readiness was manifested by that Noble Personage to meet
the public feeling with regard to corporal punishment. He
(Mr. Buller) did not mean to dispute the medical authority of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury, but when he stated that five
lashes, or one, might by possibility produce fatal results, he
would ask him what secondary punishment was not equally
objectionable? The treadmill was liable to the same objection;
so was solitary confinement. The former had led to fatal re-
sults, and the latter had produced loss of reason and loss of life.
Surely, no Gentleman would contend that punishment was to
be done away with altogether.—( Hear, hear.) They had
frequently heard of four dozen lashes being inflicted in the
navy, yet he had never known an instance of this punishment
terminating fatally. No man could look with greater horror
than he did upon the excess to which this torture was carried;
but before they did away with corporal punishment they should
It ok to the combination of the British army. Ile considered
a total abolition, at the present time would be an extremely
dangerous and unwise course—( Hear, hear)—and therefore hs
must give his opposition to the motion of the Hon. Member

. „
MeMber for Milton, that all corporal punishment be abolished.
Such wee the argument of the Hon. Gentleman.-1 Loud cries
of .4 No, no," and " Hear, hear. ) He said besides that the
officers in the army were totally unfit to control any body of
men.—(Mr. Bright said the Hon. Gentleman entirely misstated
his argument.) He (Mr. Goulburn) said it was difficult to
apportion punishment in any case, but much more in the army,
where the e,onsequenece that followed in the community from
acts which se ere yet nut immoral must be taken into consider-
ation. Insult, for example, of which in civil society no no-
tice was taken, would produce consequences, if allowed to go
unnoticed, which would undo the discipline of the army. He
found that some of those who were fur reducing the degree of
punishment, or rather for abolishing it altoeether, were for re-
ducing the pay of the soldier; the Hon. Member for Coventry,
for example ; and yet it was stated in evidence that
same evening, that increased pay in certain regiments
had made punishment almost unnecessary. Now, amid these
conflicting opinions, it was difficult to fix on the degree of
punishment which would be proper. But, besides these, Hon.
Gentlemen had not said whether they would substitute any,
and what punishment, if they abolished this. If they would
sii2gest extra drilling, it must be recollected that the press
had taken up that very subject, and, in the case of an cificer
who had been shot, one paper even said that he had been
justly shot at because he had over-worked this instrument of
punishment. Looking, then, at all these difficulties, he would
support the reduction proposed by the Government, and would
maintain that number of lashes, in hopes that, by and by, it
would be unnecessary, when the character of the soldier should
be elevated,
Mr HUME said he had seen many changes, and with
gratification, and he was not a little gratified at seeing the
change which had occurred in the Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down. Fifty lashes suited the Hon. Gentleman now,
fie (Mr. Hume) had seen him when 300 would not satisfy him,
when he would have a thousand.—( Hear, hear.) He had also
misrepresented some of the Hon. Gentlemen beside him ( Mr.
Hume.) He had charged the lion. Member for Coventry
with wishing to diminish the pay of the common soldier. Such
was certainly not his wish, or the meaning of his words. He
had advocated a short term of years. and the absence of favour
to particular regiments ; that all regiments might share the
changes of climate, and the dangers of transit. These were
subjects on which that Hon. Member had addressed the House.
As for himself, while he advocated economy, he had always
been forward in advancing the comfort of the soldier. When
the late motion was made for Ural ies to the soldiers, he
did not oppose that ; he cordially supported .he motion.
Why has the Hon. Gentleman, who said so much on this sub-
ject, not made st.me effort to ameliorate the condition of the
army ? He was asked by a party, as he was coming into the
House that very day, how it was that the army continued to pig
together in the way they did ? It surprised him ; but from the
statement of the Hon. Gentleman, he now understood the
matter perfectly. It was evident that there was a scarcity of
water provided in barracks, and that, too, at a time when the
Commissioners on the subj,mt of health ascribed disease and
unhealthiness to the want of water as an agent to promote
cleanliness. He was a friend to peace, but as it was necessary
that they should have an army and navy, it was his desire that
they should be kept as respectable as possible.—( Hear.) Now
his opinion might be in some degree biassed by his own
circumstances, having been once in the army himself, in the
East Indies, for twelve years, during which period their had
been no corporal punishment, while in the Etaropean army
there had been several instances. In Madras .t was considered
a punishment to be turned out of the native army. He con-
tended that the system adopted in the British army had a
tendency to brutalise the soldiery. It was the tendency of all
human authority to misuse power; and he contended that, at
the Horse Guards, the cases were not so strictly inquired into
as they should have been. He considered that the mind of the
public was so deeply engaged in this matter that it
must be altered. It should be ren,embered that
every 50 lashes inflicted 450 stripes. Now, supposing there
was no important physical injury inflicted, he contended
that the mental degradation which was caused was
sbas(
funirffildietpc,alfftiriieem.onc:ittieedtdHo induceitnsservicehatioh,pueel
da
rwtehdeer met t
oo ht
mb e abolishthatalow if
allowed,
punishment slhgamrs
great
nt:
at osh
abolishedn tgh this de
would-
conclude military
that
a tof h
ethe
wouldeou country,--
( t
supportry.—
the Hon. Member for Bolton.

Mr. GOULB URN denied that he had at any time supported
the infliction of 300 la,hes. _

Mr. H UME said that the Hon. Member had done so in the
year 1838.
Mr. GOULBURN said that in that year the proposition
made was for total abolition of corporal punishment, and it was
that which he opposed, and not 300 lashes.
Colonel SIBTHORP could not but express his disgust at
the opinions of the Hon Member for Durham. He thought
there could be but one feeling of sovereign contempt for the
opinions of such a man.—(Cries of " Order.") The service
wou'd rejoice to know that the Hon. Member did not belong
to the army—(Laughter and cheers)—and although it was
composed of the outcasts of society, yet that he would never
belong to it.—( Laughter and cheers. )
. .

Colonel WOOD considered it necessary for the true disci-
pline of the army that better accommodation should be afforded
to the troops than they at present possessed ; and he hoped the
Hon. Memher for Montrose, in spite of all his jealous watch-
fulnes, over the army estimates, would be prepared at an early
period to give his support to an increased vote for affording
this necessary accommodation.—( Gies of " Divide, divide.")
He believed that nothing did so much to cause a reluctance to
enter the army as the diminution in the pension. He thought
that by increasing the pension they would get a better descrip-
tion of men for the army, and consequently the necessity for
infl.cting corporal punishment would be completely removed.
Mr. H. CURTEIS movad the adjournment of the debate.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh.")
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped that the Hon. Member would not
press his motion, as it would be more advisable to bring the
debate to a close that night.
Mr. H. CURTEIS said that his object in proposing the ad-
journment was to afford Hon. Members a further opportunity
of expressing their sentiments on this subject. The Hon.
Member proceeded to say that the Horse Cr..ards might soon
set their House in order, for public opinion would force them
to do away with this degrading punishment. He thought the
country was deeply indebted to the jury who sat on the Houns-
low affair for the way in which they had done their duty. He
would further observe that great obstacles were thrown in the
way of a full investigation, and it was. to the moral courage of
the Rev. Mr. Trimmer that they were mainly indebted for
originating the investigation. He would now withdraw his
motion for the adjournment.
Colonel PEEL wished to explain, in correction of a state-
ment made by the Hon. Member for Bolton, who stated that
the offences in the British army were as two to one compared
with the French army. This was not correct, as the returns
furnished by the French Government would show.
After a few observations from an Hon. Member, whose
name did not transpire, the gallery was cleared for a division.
On our re-admis.ion, there appeared—
For the motion to go into Committee
For Dr. Bowring's motion ... ........ 37
Majority against Dr. Bowring's motion —s3
On the motion for the Speaker leaving the chair,
Mr. OSBORNE moved that it shall not be lawful to in-
flict any corporal punishment by flogging on any private
soldier, corporal, or non commissioned officer in the army or
militia of the United Kirgdon, save for offences committed on
the line of march, mutiny, or theft ; and that in all such cases
the number of lashes be limited to fifty. The Hon. Member
said he would press his motion to a division.
Alter a few words from Lord JOHN RUSSELL, urging
the Hon. Member to withdraw his amendment,
Stray gers were ordered to withdraw, and the House divided,
when there appeared,

For ttie motion 25
Agsinst it
Majority against the motion —s6
The House then went into Committee, pro forma, and
obtained leave to sit to-morrow,

The House then resumed.
The following Bills were then read a third time and passed:—
Copyholl Commission Bill.
Turn•.ike Acts Continuation Bill.
Stock in Trade Bill.
Highway Rates Bill.
Loan Societies Bill.
THE FORMS ASSESSED TAXES BILL
went through Committee pro form's.

MILITIA PAY BILL.
This Bill also went through Committee pro. forma.
NAVAL MEDICAL SUPPLEIIENTAL BILL.

The report on this Bill was brought up and agreed to.
RATEABLE PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
The Committee on this Bill was postponed till this day
Saturday)...._

EXCLUSIVE PRIVILEGE TRADING ABOLITION

BILL.

The third reading of this Bill was postponed till this day.
FISHERIES (IRELAND; BILL.
The report on this Bill was brought up and at to.
EDICAL PRACTITIONERS.

Mr. WAKLEY obtained leave to brin.; in a Bill for the
Registration of Medical Practitioners in England and Wales.
31r. PARKER moved for leave to bring in a Bill "to em-
power the Commissioners for the Issue of Loans for Public
Works and Fisheries to make loans in money to the Commis-
sioners of her Majesty's Woods, in lieu of loans heretofore
authorised to be made in Exchequer Bills," which was read a
first time.

The House then adjourned, at Half-past One, till Twelve
:o-day.

THE LATE HURRICANE.—MEETING or FLORISTS
AND NURSERYMEN.—A meeting of the florists, nurserymen,
and market-gardeners of Lambeth, Stockwell, Brixton, Clap-
ham, Wandsworth, Camberwell, Walworth, and its vicinity,
was held on Tuesday evening, at the Swan Hotel, Stockwell,
for the purpose of taking into consideration the most effectual
measures to be adopted, in order to repair the dreadful losses
occasioned by the gale of last Saturday, whereby their hot-
houses, plants, fruit, and other property, to an immense
amount, was destroyed. Mr. 11. Groom, the tulip-grower,
was called to the chair, supported by Messrs. Field, Fairbairn,
Cathill, Altee, Chapman, Chandler, jun., Dixon, and about
thirty other of the principal florists, market gardeners, and
nurserymen of the southern districts of the metropolis. The
statements made by the several speakers were truly distress-
ing, many declaring that the storm had been their utter
ruin, and that nowhere had the hurricane committed such
frightful ravages as in the South London districts. One firm
estimated their losses at upwards of 2,0001., while another
party had between two and three tons of the finest hothouse
grapes destroyed, which would have fetched in the market
from 3s. to 45. per lb. An immense quantity of pines had
also been destroyed, and the value of the glass broken in
their hothouses, greenhouses, frames, &c., was of an enormous
amount. It was resolved that this meeting should be con-
si'lered as preliminary to a general one, at which each party
would then be enabled to give a pretty comet estimate of
his losses.

for Bolton.
Mr. BRIGHT thought that, taking the alteration pro-
posed by the Government as agreed to, still there would
remain much that was disgusting and revolting. He
could not agree with the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man who had just sat down, that the public would
rest satisfied with the course pursued by Govern-
ment. Though they would be glad at the change proposed
as a step in the right direction, they would still have
been better satisfied had corporal punishment been altogether
abolished.—( Hear, hear.) The opinion he was sure would
be en'ertained in the country that the Government suc-
cumbed to the Horse Guards. The military officers who
had been so much referred to, he held to he the worst pos-
sible judges as to whether corporal punishment should be
dispensed with. They were so used to arbitrary authority
and power, that it was with the greatest difficulty they could
be induced to give up any of the influence which they at
present had. The military officers hail always opposed
any mitigation of corporal punishment, and they were equally
opposed to the abolition of it now. He would not, therefore,
look to them as an authority on the queqiun. A great deal
had been said about improving the condition and character of
the soldier, but he for one believed that all they might attempt
would fail—the soldiers were raised, of necessity, from the lowest
class of the population. When parties in any locality had run
through every course of bad conduct and dis.ipation, they then
enlisted in the army, so that the service was recruited from the
outcasts of the population. The people of this country were
essentially a commercial, and not a fighting people, and they
reed not expect that any but the lowest and most degraded
class would become private soldiers. He would give his vote
for the motion of the Hon. Member for Bolton, and he hoped
the time would soon come when not only corporal punishments
would be abolished, but the employment of large bodies of men
for the purposes of destruction would be entirely put an
end to.
Mr. GOULBURN was sorry to rise to express his opinion
on the present occasion, after the speech of the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government. He considered it was not of
advantage to the public or the service that such a question
should be agitated in the way it had been done ; but of all the
speeches that had been delivered on the question that of the
Mon. Member who last addressed the House was to him the
most astoni'hing. He said the army was composed of the mere
outcasts of society. He (Mr. Goulburn) denies that pro-
-1 positinn.—( Hear, hear.) He as erted that they were the
refuse of society—if so, did he wish for then. improvement?
No. for he said the commercial spirit of the country is such as
to discourage all manifestation of the military spirit, and that
a better class of soldiers need not be expected. He declared
! the army would, of necessity, be of the character he had stated;
and then he stated he would vote for the motion of the Hon.

The members of the Irish Society, Suffolk-street,
Pall-mall, had their second and last dinner for the season on
Wednesday, at Blaclos all, where they mustered numerously,
and in genially harmonic accord, in Lovegrove's chief salon.
Viscount Castlereagh took the chair on the occasion, and
ruled the board with a tact and spirit which ensured the
happiest completion in the festive re-union. Amongst those
present, and whose health was given with warmest cordiality,
was Mr. I'. Birmingham, vice president of the Society for
the Improvement of Ireland. This gentleman, in returning
thanks, introduced to the notice of the society the Rev.
T. Rosh, an excellent clergyman of the well-known Clad-
dagh district, in Galway, where the singular race of fisher-
men, who have been so frequently noticed by travellers in
Ireland, monopolise, as it well may be said, the coast. The
reverend gentleman, who is over in England on a mission to
raise funds to aid in establishing schools of practical education
among the most primitive, and, unfortunately, as ignorant
and impoverished people, gave a very feeling account of their
condition, which drew towards his charitable purpose the
warmest sympathy, and, in the end, some more substantial
intimations of approval.
At the Windsor Petty Sessions on Thursday, a medical
gentleman, named Earingey, was charged with having as-
saulted a midwife, and turned her out of the room whilst at-
tending a lady, because she was interfering with his practice.
The magistrates, however, did not think the assault of a very
grave nature, and dismissed the complaint.
THE CHOLERA IN LONDON.—Two members of th
Academy of Medicine has just set out for London, in order to
watch the progress of the sporadic cholera, many cases of
which have shown themselves in that city. It is said that
several peculiarities are observable in the complaint in Lon-
don, which renders an examination interesting and useful to
medical science.— Galignani's Messenger.

THE Su'N, LONDON, S,tIII7..RDAV EVENIN-0-, AUGUST 8, 1848“

Glt A T

TEMPERANCE
DEMONSTRATION
AT
COVENT-GARDEN THEATRE,

This grand demonstration, in connexion with► the sit-
tings of the World's Temperance Convention, to which
the friends of the cause had so ardently looked forward,
took place last evening, in Covent-garden Theatre, and
was all, and even more, than the most sanguine amongst
them could have anticipated. The platform (which was
erected upon the stage), pit, and galleries, were crowded
to excess (notwithstanding the admission was not free),
and the boxes wcro filled with elegantly-dressed ladies
and gentlemen. The vast building. consequently pre •
sented a most animating scene, and forcibly reminded
us of the similar immense gatherings that were wont to
be held there for the purpose of promoting that other
great cause— free trade which has now happily
triumphed.
On the platform were delegates from different quar-
ters of the globe ; amongst whom we observed G. W.
Alexander, Esq. (treasurer of the National Temperance
and Anti-Slavery Societies) ; the Rev. Dr. Beecher and
the Rev. Dr. Massey, of Cincinnati ; Henry Clapp, Esq.
and Frederick Douglas, Esq., of Massachu.,,sets; the Rev.
E. M. Kirk, of Albany; Dr. Campbell, R. Potter, Esq.,
G. W. Attwood, Esq., merchant, London; Rev. J. Burns,
J. Meredith, Esq., Wm. Cash, Esq, Rev. Dr. Marsh,
Rev. Dr. Patton, Rev. Dr. Cox, Lawrence Heyworth,
E-q., of Liverpool ; Dr. Beaumont, of Bradford ;J.
Rutter, Esq., Shaftesbury ; J. S. Buckingham, Esq. ;
Henry Vincent, Esq. ; Dr. Oxley, Dr. Lovell, W. Jan-
son, jun., Esq., &c.,
The proceedings of the meeting were opened at half-
past six o'clock by the Rev.
~ABEZ BURNS moving that
George W. Alexander, Esq., take the chair. The motion
having been seconded and carried, that gentleman took
the chair amidst great cheering.
The CHAIRMAN commenced his observations by saying
that he was little worthy to occupy the post to which he
had been called that evening. He would not, however,
abuse the trust which had been confided to him
by troubling them with many observations, know-
ing as he did, that he was surrounded by some of
the ablest friends of the anti-slavery cause—(Great
laughter and cheers)—he meant by same of the ablest
friends of the total abstinence cause, not only in this
country, but in the United States of America—(Cheers)
—and it had been to some of them a delightful treat to
listen to the statements which they had given to them
(during the three days of the Convention) of the cause
of total abstinence in the United States. He did not

child ivas standing , s
by her side wahine. to devour the
naked rind of the potatoes which the 'elder child was
preparing for their meal. On inquiry for their mother,
i and seeing an expressive look on the countenance of the
elder ch:ld, they mounted a sort of ladder to a room
above, and there was a female on a lot of straw, in a
corner, brought virtually to death by want, misery, and
disease. They were not in time to recover her, but they
found that the father of those children had taken
the clothes which had been presented to them by
the Sunday-school teacher to enable them to attend
school, and had pawned those clothes and spent the
money in drink. That father never returned till the
day that his wife was buried. And that father
was the highly respectable gentleman to whom
he had at first referred ; and that woman, that
died on the lot of straw, in the corner of a hovel,
was the delightful woman that married the father of
those children ; That, melancholy history could never
be effaced from his memory. That father was a mode
rate drinker—and it was moderate drinking that
brought that family to so degraded a position.—
( Hear, hear, and loud applause.) He (Mr. Rut-
ter), therefore, trusted that in -times to come neither
he nor any one else would consider themselves safe un-
less they entirely abstained, and prevailed upon their
youths and friends to do everything in their power to
remove the snare of intoxication from the earth. If
they found—as they all would do—that they had no
strength of their own, but that all their dependance
was on God, then let them pray to God that, in his
goodness, he would give them strength to persevere until
they were protected from the danger of moderate drink-
ing.--(Cheers.) This was truly a great and good cause.
It had received the stamp of approbation from on
high—(Hear)—and therefore it was the privilege
as well as the duty of every thinking man and con-
sistent Christian, to give it the right hand of support
and hslp.—(Loud cheers.)
The Cuentarae then said that he had the pleasure of
introducing to their notice the Rev. Dr. Beecher, from
the United States of America, and it might be as well
for hire to remark, at the same time, that that Gentle-
man was one of the fathers, if not the father of this
movement in the United States, and the world at large.
—(Great cheering.) And on account of his age--he
being upwards of seventy years of age—he was sure
that they would listen to him with the greatest atten-
tion.—(Cheers.)
The Rev. Dr. BEECHER, according, presented himself
to the vast assembly, which was the signal for renewed
and long-continued cheering, which having subsided, he
proceed to say, that it was an unhappy fact, in the pro-
gress of this reform, that many great and many good
men had doubted the necessity and lawfulness of it.
Those men thought that Jesus Christ had committed to
his church, and to his ministers, and to the preaching
the gospel, the whole work of the reformation of
of mankind.—(Hear, hear.) Now, with respect to
this reformation of drunkards, he had two rea-
sons to assign why the preaching of the
gospel would never reform them. The first reason was,
that, as a community, they never did, and never would,
eo to hear it.—(Hear, and cheers) The second reason
was, that the Holy Ghost would never regenerate and sane -
tify a man as long as he was dealing with his cups—
(tlear, hear)—and they might just as well sit at home
and not hear at all as to go half tipsy to hear the word
of God.—(Hear, hear.) Now, to settle this question,
and for argument, instead of declamation, he wished to
call their attention to the consequences of the preaching
of the Gospel in alliance with social temperate drinking
—he did not say in alliance with drunkenness—but he
did say in alliance with what was popularly called tem-
perate drinking, He wished to state this subject very
concisely, because his time was short, and because the
argument needed but to be presented to be interesting.
All the other obstacles to the preaching of the gospel
had been surmounted, and if they could but remove the
monster obstacle of temperate drinking, and if he could
impress that audience with the conscientious and firm
conviction that temperate drinking would defeat, and
had paralysed, the extensive preaching of the gospel,
and render it nugatory to reformed drunkards, why, then,
the seed which they had sown would yield an abundant
harvest that would wave over the world. The
speaker then proceeded at some length to prove his po-
sition that the gospel could never be truly spread whilst
the present system of temperate drinking continued.
Things had been continually going from bad to worse,
whilst the liquid fire of intoxication continued to be
poured out amongst the people ; but he firmly believed
that God, who had delivered up his only begotten Son to
death to save mankind, had, in his goodness, raised up
the advocates of this cause as his instruments to sweep
intoxication and misery from the face of the earth.
The success which attended this cause at its commence-
ment was but weak, but its most ardent friends could
scarcely have predicted for it such triumphs as it had
already achieved. The success that God had given to
it demonstrated that the cause was of God.—(Cheers.)
Thousands and thousands, and thousands and hundreds
of thousands of drunkards had been rescued and washed
from their outward filth, and purified from the sin of
drunkenness.—(Loud cheers.) The number that had
now taken the pledge was equal to that of the professors
of religion.—(Hear.) In conclusion, he would merely
say that he had watched this cause for the last 36 )'ears.
He had seen it falter, but never stop. (Cheers.)
After it had faltered its elastic powers increased when
it moved again.—(Cheers.) He did not expect that he
should have lived so long, or that he should have seen
the splendid sight he had witnessed in connexion with
the cause. It was said, that Bonaparte in one of his
battles took down his telescope whilst the war sus
raging at its height, and calmly said to his generals,
" the battle is won." And he (Dr. Beecher) had lived
to see the indications, the progress, and results of this
cause, till he could say, not with faith, but with a firm
conviction, " the battle is won."—(Great cheering.)
He had seen the beginning of the end, and ho could
now die, not mourning, but shouting victory; and his
heart exulted at what had been done, and it therefore
glorified God, and magnified his praises.—(Cheers.)
Mr. FREDERICK HOPWOOD, of York, next addressed
the assemblage. He felt it, he said, to be a most diffi-
cult task to make a short speech on this great comprehen-
sive question. When first they commenced the advocacy of
their principles, it was perfectly well known to many that
they appeared before the public with some great timidity.
It was true that they themselves were convinced of the
purity and excellence of their motives ; but they were
confident also that those principles were as much op-
posed to the existing habits and practices of society—as
much opposed to the general thinkings of the great mass
of their countrymen and women, that as he had already
said, they appeared with something like fear and
trembling. They availed themselves of experience, and
that experience had fully realised their expectations.
They expected that those individuals who were
engaged in the manufacture and sale of intoxicating
liquors, and whose interest it was to perpetuate that state
of things, from which so many and such dreadful evils
had arisen—they expected that these persons would be
up in arms against them. It was quite natural that
they should be. They expected, also, to meet with op-
position from those thousands—nay, he might say those
millions—of individuals, who cared nothing about the
suffering of their fellow-creatures, and were not pre-
pared to make any sacrifice, however small and insigni-
ficant, for the sake of their country's prosperity and
happiness.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Indeed, they
expected to meet with opposition or indifference from
all who were any great worshippers at the shrine of
Bacchus, and who for a considerable length of time had
been in the habit of looking upon the use of intoxicating
liquors as one of the principal enjoyments of life. They
expected all this, and they were in some measure pre-
pared for it ; and the result of their labours was, that
thousands had perceived the ignorance that pervaded
the human mind in reference to this suhject.—(Cheers.)
The advocates in this movement found, after inquiry,
that the expenditure for intoxicating liquors in this
country amounted to a hundred times as much as all
the religious societies put together expended in the pro-
pagation of the Gospel both at home and in foreign
parts.—(Hear, hear.) They found that the mortality
occasioned by the use of strong drink had reached to
nearly the number of 40,000 or 50,000 every year, That
600,000 of our fellow-countrymen and women, immortal
beings, created in the image of our God, and destined
for a life of usefulness and enjoyment here, and for a glo-
rious immortality hereafter, had become converted by the
influence of those accursed poisons into so many fiends
and maniacs, and by which means the greatest miseries
were inflicted upon their families and all those with
whom they were connected.—(Cheers.) By means of
those fatal poisons our poorhouses were filled with
paupers, our prisons were filled with criminals, and
lamentations and woe covered the face of the country.
—(Hear, hear.) Looking back upon all the means that
had been employs(' by the advocates of this Society,
they found that the same Government that had legis-
lated for the punishment of intemperance had licensed
thousands and tens of thousands of houses for the sale
of intoxicating drinks.—(Cheers.) Ile found that
I magistrates, after having inflicted fines upon parties who
had been brought before them on charges of drunken-
ness, retired to some friend's house to enjoy a good
dinner, and it was no uncommon thing with many of
them to indulge in a bottle or two of port or sherry, and
return home in their carriages drunk.—(" Hear, hear,"
and loud cheers.) They found, also, that ministers of
religion had faithfully warned the drunkard, upon
the authority of holy writ, and had declared
that such degraded beings could not enter the kingdom
of Heaven. But they found that whilst Governments,
magistrates, and Ministers, were thus employed, the
same Government, magistrates, and Ministers, drank
the drunkard's drink.--r(Great cheering.) Drunken ap-
petites were being daily created as a natural conse-
quence, and the prevalence of the vice of drunkenness
was carried to such an extent as to threaten the very
stability of our social and political institutions.—
(Cheers.) Every means, then, used for the purpose of
reclaiming the drunkard, or rather, he should say
of preventing the sober men from becoming
drunk failed. Total abstinence, however, commenced
its operations, and from the time when it first sprang
into existence it had continued to progress. The cause
spread with almost miraculous rapidity through every
part of the civilised world.—(Cheers.) And notwith-
standing the opposition with which it had met, great
things had been done in the work of reforming the
drunkard, and preventing the sober man from falling.
They met, in some instances, with the malignant oppo-
sition of those individuals who were engaged in the
manufacture and sale of strong drink, but then on the
other side the cause of total abstinence had now such
support as it had not a dozen years ago.—(Cheers.)
They had now a healthful, active, and public sentiment.
—(Cheers.) They had roused public attention. They
had presented to the notice of the public various great
questions for their consideration and the people at large,
and they had found that whilst the manufacture and
sale of intoxicating drinks kept up a few in noble palaces
it was also beggaring and damning its thousands and
tens of thousands. —(Cheers.) The cause was now
reaching its meridian splendour, and an enlightened and
indignant British public were determined to promote the
peace and prosperity of the country by abolishing the
use of strong drinks.—(Cheers.) The speaker was pra-

doubt that that assembly would listen to those gentle-
men with equal satisfaction ; and he trusted that no
small amount of benefit would be derived to this
erect cause from the meeting of that evening.—
(Cheers.) It was, he thought, quite needless that he
should attempt to address to them any arguments in
favour of that cause which they had met to rromote. It
appeared to him that there were one or two simple con-
siderations and facts, which were abundantly s.;utficient
to commend it to the attention and command the esteem

and regard of every philanthropist and Christian. It; on
the one hand, they compared all the good that it could
be alleged that intoxicating drinks had done (supposing
them really to have been productive of any), and on the
other hand, the incalculable amount of crime and misery,
both in this world and the next, to which they had led,
he thought they should be prepared to make any
sacrifice which might be demanded of them,
in order to promote the cause of total ab-
stinence. (Hear, hear.) But besides all that,
they were able to appeal to the very delightful fact,
that there had been a very large number of persons who
a few years ago were supposed to Le incapable of re-
formation—that there had been a very large number of
drunkards who had beeu reclaimed from the ranks of
intemperance.—(Cheers.) And he believed it might be
safely stated that there was scarcely a place to be found,
in which total abstinence had been established, in which
such results had not followed.—(Hear, hear.) He con-
fessed that that one circumstance was with him quite
sufficient to induce him to adopt the practice of entire
abstinence—(Hear, bear)— but as he had already said
that he did not intend to make a long speech, he
was determined to adhere to his promise. He
did feel that, while some of them esteemed

it to be at once their privilege and their duty
to do all they possibly could to abolish slavery from
every part of the globe—(Cheers)—it was at the same
time a solemn duty, which was incumbent upon English-
men, to abolish the slavery of drunkenness, and to re-
move from our own countrymen those dreadful evils of
which intoxication was the cause.—(Loud cheers.)
With these few remaks, he felt satisfied that his office,
as chairman, would be very .fight, and he would now
take his seat, in order to listen to the addresses which
would be delivered to them.—(Cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN again rose, and said, that he was re-
quested to state that as it was desirable that they should
have the opportunity of hearing as many speakers as
possible from different parts of the world, each speaker
would be required to confine himself to the space of
fifteen minutes.—(Applause.) He ought also to state,
and he did so with considerable regret, that he had re-
ceived a letter from their friend Joseph Sturge, in which
he stated that Elihu Burritt, in consequence of indisposi•
tion, would not be able to take part in the proceedings of
that evening, and that he had been compelled to leave
town.

Joins 'RUTTER, Efq , of Shaftesbury, then presented
himself, amidst loud cheering. Silence having been ob-
tained, he said that, instead of wasting their time by
apologies for his at once answering the call of
the Chairman, he would commence the few
observations which he had to make to the immense
assembly before him, by remarking upon the very dif-
ferent standing which their cause now assumed to that
which it did a few years since, when it was established,
amidst contempt, by a few noble-minded working men
at Preston—(Cheers)—a standing not only proved by
the overwhelming scene before him, but proved, also,
by the convention of men assembled from different
parts of the world, now assembled on the subject within
this city, and proved, also, by the presence of their
American brethren then around them, who had come
across the Atlantic to bear with them the kindly
feelings of their teetotal friends in America,
and to give them the right hand of fellow
ship, and to wish them " God speed " in their
noble and philanthropic cause.—(Cheers.) Not only
was it proved by those circumstances, but by the great
festival which was held in connexion with this move-
ment, on the previous evening, in the Freemasons' Hall.
And when he looked around upon that building and its
characteristic decoration, and when he saw the walls de
corated by the portraits of so many of their grand
masters, he could not but think that the system which
they had that evening met to propagate, was a far better
system of freemasonry—(Cheers.)—because they were
free from the slavery of strong drink, and the drinking
customs of this country.—(Loud cheers.) And he also
thought that amongst the members of this society
there were grand masters, and when he referred to such
men as his friends Bowley and Sturge, and to Dr.
Beecher, from America, and their Father Mathew in
Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) Then be said that they had
Grand masters amongst them, who had done more for
the human race in the way of elevating them and doing
them good than all the grand masters that ever assem-
bled in Freemason's Hall.—(Cheers.) Those leaders
were kept in remembrance by the pencil of the artist
around the walls of their hall, but the grand masters of
this society were engraved upon the hearts of all thinking
men of the present generation so deeply that their memory
would be fragrant, and continue so through the present
and every succeeding generation.—(Cheers.) And was
it not the duty of every one present to do all in their
power to benefit their fellow man ? Were not the
members of the Total Abstinence Society the true
Samaritans, who looked after the poor drunkard,
wounded by strong drink ? They went over to him,
and poured the oil of consolation and hope into his
wounds. Yea, if he were hungry they fed him and if
he were naked they clothed him ; and when they
had thus restored him to the condition of a
rational being, they took him as an immortal being,
and brought him into the refuge for the outcast,
and made him acquainted with the one true Samaritan,
and thus gave him hope and comfort in this world, and
prepared him for the enjoyment of a blessed immor-
tality.—(Cheers.) And he conceived that although they
did not substitute their principles, or the practice of tee-
totalism, for that of Christianity—(Hear, hear)—al-

though they did believe that their re !won was not meat
and drink, but the righteous joy and peace of the Holy
Ghost to those that believed, they still did believe that
their plan and their principles, and their prat ice, were
the true handmaids of religion, for they reformod
those who might be compared to persons whe
had lost their senses, and after having re-
stored them to their right mind, and clothed
them, they recommended them to sit at the feet
of Jesus.—(Cheers.) And not only were their society
and their principles calculated to redeem the drunkard,
but oh! let no one there forget that they performed
another equally great and important task—they pre-
served the temperate and taught them that they were in
a dangerous position.—(Cheers.) How often had he
and the friends around him been told, when they had
memb conversedersof
o tri e thislig
io
religion,
subject,
though teetotalism might bet, even with serious and pious
good for the drunkard it was not good for them or for
him. Ah! he never should forget a fact which took
place in the West of England, and which convinced him
that so long as he continued even a moderate
drinker of the drunkard's drink he was in danger
of dying the death of the drunkard too.--(Rear.
There was in a city in the west of England a gentleman
of the same profession as he himself—a lawyer—but
greatly his superior in his understanding and intellect,
and a man possessed of a large property, and command-
ing influence, who married a lady in every way equal to
himself, and adorned with every grace that became the
female character. They possessed every thing that the
human heart could desire, and had every prospect before
them that the heart could anticipate for times to come.
For a short period they went on well, but at last they
felt themselves on a very slippery precipice, till, in the
course of a very few years, they were lost from the ob-
servations of their friends, and then it was that in
another city in the west two little girls were
found in a Sunday-school, and produced much interest
by their intelligence and beauty, but at length they
were found absent from the school. It was discovered
they were absent because they had not clothes to come
to school in, and the Sunday-school teacher supplied
them with them. They were again regular in their attend-
ance, but after a few weeks they were again absent, and
the teacher requested the superintendent to accompany
her to their dwelling. In one of the lowest districts of
the town they found the hovel; and, on entering, there were
those two children, the eldest girl peeling potatoes which
I were to be boiled as their only sustenance, and the younger

ceedieg to address the meeting in very able totreP, Aton
he was reminded' by the Chairman that the tlfteen
minutes allotted to him had expired. He, therefore, at
once withdrew amidst loud plaudits.
The Rev. E. N. Kitts, of Boston, America, then pre-
sented himself at the call of the Chairman, and was re-
ceived with great cheering. The meetings in connexion
with the convention were now drawing to a close—
'in fact, the great services of . that evening
would virtually terminate them. Nothing remained to
be accomplished but the formal transaction of a little
business, and he therefore felt, as a member of that
convention, that they were at the termination of a most
interesting and most important session.—(Hear, hear.)
They had passed four days—Britons and Americans
had met, not in deadly conflict—(Great cheering)—they
had met to make mutual congratulations—they had met
in friendly ceuecil. They had met to impart mutual
encouragement and metual instruction, and they felt at
the close of those four days, terminated by the proceed-
ings of the vast assembly before him—they felt not only
that they had enjoyed the favour of Divine Providence,
but they felt that they were now about to enter afresh
upon their great work with renewed vigour.—(Cheers.)
As one of the American delegation, he must express his
most cordial thanks to their British brethren for that
distinguished courtesy with which they received them.—
(Cheers.) His own impression as to what
had been done was a permanent and serious
one ; he was firmly convinced that the work before
them was a vast and difficult work; and during the few
moments that were assigned to him he would devote to
the impressing upon his fellow reformers the magnitude
of the work to be done.—(Hear, hear.) The work sees
vast, and they could not succeed in its accomplishment
without the help of God—(Hear, hear)—who alone
could change the entire convictions, maxims, and cus-
toms of a nation and of' the world.—(Cheers.) The
members of this society meant by the help of God to
set free the face of the earth from one of its direst
scourges—(Cheers)--and dry up one of its damning
fonntains.—(Cheers.) Their great difficulty would be
the discountenancing the use of the intoxicating cups
in the fashionable circle.--(Hear, hear.) And their
legislators had yet to be converted, for they were against
the members of this society. The mighty of the
earth were also against them, and so was the whole of
the trade. Every man that owned a brewery or dis-
tillery ; every man that had a wholesale and retail estab-
lishment for the traffic in ardent spirits, or malt, or fer-
mented liquors was against them.—(Hear, hear.) And
they were not a few—not to be despised. The whole
habits and customs of society were against them
in this reform. But God was with them, and
they need not • fear the issue.—(Loud cheers.) Truth
immortal, insurmountable truth, was what they relied
upon us the chief means of diffusing the glorious princi-
ples of total abstinence. They heeded not prejudice
passion and interest ; as Milton had well said " Only
give truth a fair open field, and she must triumph."—
(Cheers.) They believed it, and stood in the midst of
the vast British public, as Temperance Reformers, in a
very different position to that which they occupied in
their own country where public sentiment had changed.
lie knew there were many excellent men in tf is country,
whose heart and soul was with them, but they could not
take a decided step to refuse imparting the poisonous
beverage to the guests at their tables. Why there was
such a power of public sentiment against intemperance,
that it was not considered inhospitable to sit at the head
of one's table, and to give nothing to those who sat at it
but the pure beverage of Paradise. —(Cheers.) The great
work they had performed was to be accomplished, he
thought, by four instruments—light and love, patience
and prayer.—(Cheers.) And he hoped that every tem-
perance reformer would go forth girded with this holy
principle. They had a secret which they did not wish
to conceal, and the freemasonry of that right was to
open the arcanum of the world—the panacea that could
heal many—he was almost going to say most of its
woes.—(Hear, hear.) The persons with whom they had
to deal might be divided into two classes—persons that
had consciences and regarded its influence, and those
who adopted their principles through the operation of
public sentiment, which they were too cowardy to resist;
and when our blessed Lord was on earth he went about
among men preaching his religion, never expressing
his disgust at anything that offended him, but
dealing with men as if they had consciences and
hearts that could feel the power of the holy lessons
he inculcated. There was but one class of men against
whom he dealt in words of thunder—the proud, stern,
self-righteous Pharisees, against whom he addressed
that beautiful figure in Holy Writ, and said "Wo !
No ! Wo !" They could not convert some men ; they
might address them in the language of truth, with
angels' tongues, but without causing the moral sensi-
bility, inherent in all human nature, to respond.—(Hear.)
He knew this did not exist to a great extent in England,
but he knew that there were men who would deal in
the drunkard's drink till nothing but public senti
meat shamed them from continuing it.—(Loud
cheers.) But to form that public sentiment they
had another class to deal with ; they must deal
with men as if they had consciences, as if they possessed
sense and benevolence. The facts that had converted
them would, he sincerely believed, convert others. "Do
unt others as you would have them do unto you," for if
a man could not convert another unto his sentiments, not
by knocking him down, but by the repeated presenta-
tion of arguments, by example, and by charity, he must
be almost beyond the reach of cure. They could not
fail to conquer, for they had truth enough on their side
to conquer the world. Let them go into towns, and other
places where intemperance was rife, and by the influ-
ence of love, and peace, and prayer to the Giver of all
good gifts, and of wisdom, and strengh, propagate the
doctrine of total abstinence.---(Hear, hear.) He wished
to say one word before he sat down, with respect to
the training of children. Having had some experience as
a pastor in America, with respect to children, he wished
to add his testimony to the great advantage which was
gained by teaching children the principles of temper-
ence. He entered upon the work of administering the
pledge to children with great warmth, and he was struck
with the developement which it created. The full de- '
velopement of the mind of a child was the moral senses.
The conscience and heart of a child were very suscept
ible of cultivation. He had found that they could un-
derstand the difference between right and wrong long
before they could solve the sth proposition in the book
of Euclid. He had made experiments, and the result
was the conscience of a child was made of as stern stuff
as that of a man. Ile had seen them put to the test,
and knew that they were acting rightly in first con-
vincing them that a thing was right or wrong, and
that they ought to abstain from it, to induce them
to follow that advice. He could not sit down without
saying that he did feel ashamed, as a child of England—
a grand-child, he should rather say—to pass through the
streets of Loudon, and see so many trap-doors for im-
mortal souls.—(Cheers.) He did think they could be
closed, or changed to a better employment ; and his
prayer was, that with God's blessing, that conviction.
and all their efforts, might enable them to behold old
England and America delivered and emancipated from
this evil, and going forth under the blessed unrestricted
influence of the Gospel of God's grace, to teach mankind
the advantage of temperance and peace.—(Cheers.)
The Rev. J. Marsh of New York, next addressed the
meeting. He siad there was not a more beautiful figure
than that presented in one of the old proverbs with re-
ference to the Scriptures, which represented the Gospel
first as a little stream, reaching to the ankles, then
swelling to the knees, till spreading and rolling on it
became a broad, deep river, fertilising the nations of the
earth. Everything was small at its beginning, yet they
see things gradually enlarging and extending over the
whole earth. The very Gospel itself was once confined in
an upper chamber. Mark the amazing revolution which
took place in the sixteenth century. Why, at one tiro(
the predominant religion was confined to the breast of
a monk. (Hear, hear.) Wilberforce, that man
so beloved in America that man whom
they thought of when first they saw England's shore—
when they said, " we are going to the land of Wilber-
force, who laboured twenty-six years before he could
induce truth and humanity to break up the slave-trade
—and the cause in which they were engaged had also
overcome great obstacles, and was now delivering thi
world from the thraldom of intoxicating liquors. Any
famine or disaster which cost the country 30,000,0001.
would have been considered its ruin, and yet that vice
of intoxicating liquors had saddled this country with an
expense of 60,000,0004 If Nero had taken 600,000 of
the population and stripped them of their clothing, their
fuel, their food, and their lands. and caused them to
subsist upon charity, it would have been a tyranny
which Rome, in its degenerate days, would not have
borne (Hear, hear)—yet intemperence produced in
this country greater misery and wretchedness than
such an act would have created.—(Hear, bear.)
Had some fiend been let loose from the realms of dark-
ness, to produce such mischief as these liquors had
created, we should have asked to be at liberty to pur-
chase his absence, in order to save ourselves and our
children, and yet the law invested every gin-shop in
London with this fiendish power, counselled men to com-
mit crimes, and sent thousands unprepared into eternity.
Look at the poor drunkard ! what a wreck of a man !
Look at him, and at his family ; look at the miserable
man in his bed of straw, dying of delirium
tremens, and who, before the breath leaves his body,
is in the very agonies of hell. Look at that burning
ship on the ocean, amidst the dark mass of midnight, all
enveloped in flames, and rising up the rigging to the
sails. See the miserable beings rushing to and fro in
agony, and then hopelessly plunging into the ocean.
Such, alas, was but a picture of the desolate condition of
600,000 souls in this city, and of 300,000 Americans; and
progressing in that state towards eternity, and
yet they had a cure for all this evil—a cure
so simple, so easy that they were too proud
to adopt it—a cure costing so little, and blessing them
with everything, namely, total abstinence.—(Hear,
hear.) It was their duty to adopt it—it was the duty
of England and America—the duty of the Chris-
tian, and of the whole civilised world. He had
heard a very pretty anecdote of the Queen,
through one of the American newspapers, which gave
them a good opinion of her, and they had never lost it.—
(Cheers) The year after her inauguration—he did not
vouch for the truth of the anecdote—but it got into one
of the American papers, and he believed it was true.—
(Laughter.) One day her Minister waited upon her
and urged upon her a particular Act, on the ground of
its being " expedient. ' She replied, "My Lord, talk
not to me of expediency; is it right?"—(Cheers.) He
would put that question to her Majesty, and to her Ma-
jesty's Government, whether it was right, with such a
mass of the population plunged in crime, immorality, and
wretchedness throughout the kingdom, and throughout
the whole of her Majesty's dominions, whether it was
right for a humane Government to license men to cause
individuals all this misery ?—(Hear, hear.) He would
put it to ministers of the Gospel in Great Britain, whether,
when such was the result of intoxicating liquors,
it was right for them to use them?—(Hear, hear.)
He would also put the question to any philan-
thropist, and to any patriot. Moderation was
i intemperance, and he stated before that great British au-
dience that total abstinence was the only true principle