The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-24 00:00:00

Room D.

This Committee met to-day at a quarter to twelve o'clock, the
Committee not being constituted till that hour, when the further
coneideration of the

GLASGOW, DumraxEs, AND O.ARLISLE
was resumed.

On the admission of the parties and counsel,
The Crum:ear; said he had received a letter from Mr. Hope John-
stone, the Chairman of the Caledonian Railway Company, which he
had already submitted to the Committee, and which he would now
read. It was to the following effect :
(Copy.)

" Caledonian Railway-office. 25, Parliament-street,
" London, 22d July, 1846.
" My Lords,—As Chairman of the Caledonian Railway Company,
I feel it to be my duty to state to your Lordship, that the decision of
the Committee over which you preside has so greatly surprised the
parties interested in the Caledonian Railway, and has rendered our
position as opponents of the Dumfries Bill so difficult, that I venture
to solicit, through your Lordship, the permission to state the gounds on
which we would ask a reconsideration of that decision. I would beg at
the same time to avail myself of the opportunity of cudeavouring to re-
move a mistaken impression which appears to have been made on your
Lordship and the other members of the Committee on the Glasgow,
Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway Bill, that we are &win)us of interfer-
log with the local acoommodati9n of the country between Cumnock
and Dumfries. My object In now addressing your Lordship is to
show that we have not any intention or wish to do so.
•. It Is true that we are in possession of evidence which we believe
will satisfy the Committee that the estimates of the cost of the line
In question are quite inadequate for the construction of it, and that
the local traffic is net such as to maintain the railway independently
of through traffic. That evidence we propose to adduce to-morrow
and next day ; but our sole object in oontinuing theoppOsitiOnistO
secure to the Caledonian Railway that protection against competition
met treks, to Vetch we feel strolvily that wt art eatiflitt. 'Fe
show your Lordship that this is not merely our view, I would refer
to the marked passages in the 'Accompanying report of the Board of
Trade on these schemes last year.
" In evidence of this, I may refer to proposals repeatedly made on
our part, both before and since the commencement of the proceedings
in the present session, that we would withdraw our opposition, pro-
vided the promoters of the undertaking would limit their line to the
town of Dumfries, leaving the Caledonian Company to complete the
communication between that town and Carlisle.
" I am now about to afford to your Lordship and the Com-
mittee a further proof of our sincerity by a gun greater
concession on our part. The port of Annan has been represented
by the promoters as one important and essential
line; and although we have heretofore considered ourselves
entitled
to of
uthtleedir
to the measure of protection which a branch to Dumfries would
somtwhe main
theain
afford us, we are willing to withdraw our opposition of
fo
the
oe
line
oposed
line between Cumnock and Annan, if the remainderfrom
.Annan to Gretna be conceded tottiLeo
Canobie breach. It is clear that
line of the Caledoedan Railway to Annan and to Cambia are within
Csalideedobnratannehe together
the Caledonian Company's peculiar district, and we are prepared to
give any pledge the Committee may think proper, that we shall next
session apply to Parliament for the requisite powers, and shall con-
struct these lines, in case any formal difficulty should prevent the
transfer of those portions of the proposed line to the Caledonian
Company by clauses in the present Bill.
" We think that this proposition will afford a fair test of the sin-
eerily of the promoters of the Bill, in professing that they do not calcu-
late upon abstracting the through traffic of the Caledonian Company.
If not agreed to by them, they cannot complain of our pursuing our
opposition to their whole line, possessing, as we believe we do, such
evidence as will satisfy the Committee that the grounds on which the
Bill is promoted are, in all the important points of cost and traffic,
perfectly untenable.

1"On the other hand, if the promoters of the Bill should adopt out
proposition of a division at Annan, we undertake to withdraw our
evidence upon the main line from Cumnock to Annan, so that the
Bill to that extent may he held as unopposed.
" I have, however, to state to your Lordship that we have objec-
tions ora peculiar character to what is called the Crawick Branch of
the Glasgow, Dumfries, end Carlisle line, which, in any event, we
desire to lay before the Committee, but the evidence on which will be
comparatively short; and. having explained that matter to the Com-
mittee, we shall willingly acquiesce in their decision on the subject
of the Crawick branch.
I have the honour to be,my Lord, your obedient humble servant,
(Signed) "J. J. DOPE JOIINSTONE.
" To the Right Hon. the Earl of St. Germans, &c. &c."
The CHAIRMAN, having read the letter, handed it to Mr. Sergeant
Mr. Sergeant BaLLtsts said it was quite impossible for him to give
any answer to it, as he knew nothing whatever of the letter till that
moment, and had not consulted the parties for whom he appeared.
The CHAIRMAN—Thou you had better withdraw to consult your
clients.

Mr. Sergeant Tisuisis—All I can say is that I have at ➢resent no
instructions whatever.

. -..--
Counsel and parties, at the request of the Chairman, then with-
draw, to consider the proposition contained in the letter.
After being absent about half an hour the parties returned, when
Mr. Sergeant BELLasis stated that after consulting with his
clients be could not accede to the proposition contained in the
letter of Mr. Hope Johnstone. In the first place the pro-
moters of the 11111 had made an arrangement with the Ayrshire
Company for the leasing of the line, on the faith that the
whole of the math scheme would be carried out. In fact,

than.

this was the essence of the scheme. If any part of the main lin
was given up, it would be quite impossible to carry out that arrange-
ment. In the second place, his Grace the Duke of Buccleuch had
given his consent to the whole scheme, on the distinct understand-
ing that the Canobie branch should be constructed in connexion with
tic main line. They were, therefore, bound to abide by this agree-
ment. lu the third place, the Canobie branch, and: the portiou
from Annan to Gretna, were the most profitable portions of tint
whole scheme, and were necessary for the paying of the more
northern part. The Ayrshire and Dumfries people were anxious for
an efficient communication with the south, and that could not be
properly done, unless by full connexion with Carlisle. lie was,
however, willing to make this arrangement. lie was willing,
by clauses to give the Caledonian Company special powers
to run over the Anna❑ portion of their scheme and the
Canobie, if they in return allowed the present company to
run on similar terms over the portion of the Caledonian line between
Gretna and Carlisle. If they could not settle the terms on whieh
this mutual use of the respective lines was to be used, he was wilnu
that it should lie referred to the Board of Trade. . . .

Mr. Ts.Lnor, on behalf of the Duke of Buccleuch, was tieing to
protest against the arrangement proposed by the CaledOedan Caia-
pany, when
Mr. Cocastast interfered. He said the Learned Gentleman he
no right to be heard. He was only entitled to be heard if he ap-
peared against the line, but being a petitioner in its favour he could
not. Hs had at present no right to interfere.
The Camastax said, if the promoters of the Bill had listened to the
proposition, then the Learned Gentleman might have been heard.
As it was he could have no object to serve in speaking. He thought
Mr. Cockburn had better go on with his case.
Mr. CocKaußN then proceeded to address the Committee. In
doing so, he said he would proceed on the proposition which had
been submitted to the Committee, and while doing so he should, he
wns sure, succeed in showing that the estimates of the works of the
Nithsdale line were totally inadequate to the construction of the
whole line ; that, in fact, the capital was not more than sufficient
for the making of the line as far as Annan, and that it would be im-
possible for them to construct the whole of it, should the Committee
concede it to them. The Learned Gentleman was proceeding to
enter on the points he was about to prove in evidence, and going to
show that it would be advantageous to the public, as well as the
parties interested, that the portion of the line south of Annan, along
with the Canobie branch, should be given to the Caledonian, when
Mr. Sergeant BELLASIB interfered. He desired the Learned Gentle-
man to confine himself to the demerits of the Bill as per the decision
o! the Committee, and not to go into the question of the merits of the
two lines, or the question which had been raised in the letter.
A discussion arose on the point whether or not Mr. Cockburn
should be allowed to go into this matter, which ended in the parties
being requested to withdraw, to allow the Committee to deliberate
on it.

After the absence of about three-quarters of an hour the parties
were readmitted,

The CHAIRMAN intimated that as the Committee had considered
railway communication was required for the district, they desired
that the parties against the Bill should confine themselves to showiug
that the estimates for the line were inadequate, or that the line, if
made, would not be remunerative for the capital invested. Till this
was done they could not entertain any other proposition.
After some conversation between the Learned Counsel on both
sides,
Mr. Cocisual4 said he was willing to go now into the question of
estimates, and reserve any other point that had been raised till after-
] wards, should the Committee then think such to be necessary. •

The examination of witnesses against the Bill was then proceeded
with.

Mr. Collister, civil engineer, examined—Said he was acting engi-
neer of the Caledonian line. He knew the route of the present line
wed. He knew the price paid for work on the Caledonian and the
Lancaster and Carlisle Railways, and he brought those prices to bear
on the estimates of the present line. He had gone over the esti-
mates of the present line carefully, and he felt confident it could
not be made for the sums named. Ile considered it could not be made
for less than 1,453.0001. The estimate of the promoters was 1,200,000/.
Front the nature of the country he considered the line could not be made
for Jess than he had stated. He had endeavoured to take cross sees
lions of the country, to know the extra works necessary, but lila
assistants had been prevented by the agents of the Duke of But-
cleuch. In fact, they had been assaulted on the highway. He
considered that the estimate should also have included houses for
workmen engaged in making the line. They had included these
in the Caledonian line of last year. There were now
ten thousand men engaged on the Caledonian line, and
proportionate number of men per mile would be required for the
present line. The country was so thinly populated that these
houses must be required. He thought, also, 100,0001. should have
been added for working stock, plant, &c. These items were in ad-
dition to his estimate of 1,453,0001. Now with regard to the latter
estimate, which was 253,000!. over Mr. itlythe's estimate, he as-
suine.d nearly the same amount of earth-work as they did, while
he estimated the cost at 311,5361. He calculated it at 12iid,
per yard, whereas they had set it down at 10d. It was often thick
blue clay, and the price he stated was the least it could be done for.
The whinstone and sandstone cuttings had been much underrated.
lie considered from the survey he had made there was not less than
622,300 cubic yards of these rock cuttings. Their quantity was
336,000. There was more than this on the Crawick branch alone.
Ile calculated this kind of cutting at 2s. 103,0., whereas they
had set it down at 2s. 6d. He calculated the work
'at the prices on the Caledonian line, and if the works
were to be done the next three years, from the almost certain nature
01 the labour-market, it would be impossible to do the work for less.
lie calculated the whole rock cutting at 88,940/. instead of theirs,
which was 42,0001., being 46,0001. more. The masonry, also, he con •
sidered to be much understated. They made it 92,2301., or about
1,0001. a mile. lie made it 199,5161. (The witness here
passed over in detail several bridges along the line,
which he represented to be under-estimated considerably,
compared with the prices he was paying on the Caledonian line. He
also characterised the bridges in most instances as inadequate for the
safety and proper accommodation of such a line of railway. Both
the bridges over the streams along the route of the line, as well as
those over turnpikes and public roads, had been understated. With
regard to occupation bridges there was a glaring defect. They had
only fifteen of these in an extent of ninety-two nines, whereas
he considered there should not be less than seventy-three. He
said so from experience on the Caledonian line. Far there
bridges they set down only 5,0701., whereas he estimated them at
29,163/. 'She level crossings and lodges had also been under-estimated
both in number and expense. The tunnel at Drumlanrig he esti-
mated at 451. per cubic yard, against their estimate of 35/. He cal-
-1 rotated it at this price, as he considered it would have to be lined
r with brick-work. In similar works, where there were different
layers of strata, it was usual to line the tunnels. His
calculation would be 15,0001. more than theirs. The per-
manent way he made 5,574/. per mile ; their estimate was
5,3201. Resting roads they made 7,0001. ; ho made it 11,0001. In
his opinion the working expenses, n hich had been stated at 33 per
cent., was fixed too low. A per centage on the gross receipts could
nor fairly represent the working expenses, as, whatever might be the
atin of the traffic, there would be fixed expenses going forward.
A certain number of trains would have to be run daily, officers and
clerks paid, and the way maintained. He considered a line of 99
miles would require 1501. per mile yearly to keep it in repair. This
was 32,5671. 10s. in all. To accommodate the traffic four
trains would be required each way daily, and two on Sunday.
This, at Is. 3d. per mile each train, would be 15,3821. Goods trains,
two a-day, he estimated at 8,8101. ; police, 1,0001.; station ex-
penses, 1,6501. ; rates and taxes at 201. per mile, snaking 1,815/, ;
management and chief office expenses, 2,5001.; Government duty on
passengers, 1,9501. Total, 46,3521., or 45 per cent. en the estimated
receipts.

- .
Cross-examined by Mr. Sergeant Butkus-13e went over the lice
about Whitsuntide with Mr. Errington. He left London, and was
absent about a fortnight. They started at Springfield to go over the
line on Monday, at ten o'clock, and were engaged till
Wednesday. Witness was the assistant of Mr. Locke. Mr. Locke
had only completed one line as yet in Scotland—the Glasgow and
Greenock. Mr. Miller had, he believed, completed in Scotland about

200 miles of railway. With regard to .81r. Miller exceeding the
original estimate on the Edinburgh and Glasgow line, he was_ not
aware of any branches beyond what were provided for in 'the
original estimate, but there was the expensive entrance Into
Edinburgh, which was not originally given. It ought in fairness to
have been stated. He was not aware that the plant and stock of the
company were not included ix the original estimate. He was in
possession of most of the data he had given three weeks ago, but
it was put into its present shape last night. He had no doubt the
North British line was completed for lower prices than those he had
stated, as there had been a great competition. He was not aware
that the Edinburgh and Ilawick, or the Ayrshire line to Cumnock,
were contracted for at less prices than he had stated. The Cale•
donian line had not been contracted for by public competition ; it
was agreed for at a certain price, which he was satisfied was as
little as it could be well done for. The Caledonian Company were
paying in some cases 2s. 6d. a yard for rock cuttings and supplying
the parties with waggons and other conveniences. The prices he
had named were similar to those on the Lancaster and Carlisle, and
Blackburn and Preston. The same contractor was enaged on tin
The working stbek
137,0001. He did not
fo(firtnrercaals
ewd-aosnieanngagheedcoalneutiliaeteCda,lledasotnyieaanr,liante.
add any additional working stock this year for the Dumfries and
Langhohn branches. There was about 16 miles of the Caledonian
line higher than the Dumfries line—not more. (The Learned Gen-
tlemen then went over the Nithsdale line along with the witness,
with the object of showing that there were villages along the rout*
that would accommodate the workmen without the erection of the
houses spoken of.)
The witness was next subjected to a rigid cross-examination on
the details lie had given respecting the bridges and viaducts, with
the object of showing that the scale and principle on which he had
estimated them were exaggerated and unnecessary, and that the
prices of masonry had been fixed too high. He made an esti-
mate of the whinstone rock cutting three weeks ago, but
he had it not upon him. lie estimated this rock from
the examinations he had made by borings and by observa-
tion of its repeated protrusions on the surface. Atter a few
more questions on the details by which he had arrived at his conclu-
sions of the amount of rock and whinstone cutting, the witness, at
the request of Mr. Sergeant Belles's, promised to furnish them In
writing by the morning with the particulars which he sought to
obtain. . _

The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow at eleven o'clock.

Room E.
EXETER AND DORCHESTER.

Their Lordships met this morning at the usual hour.
Mr. T. 3latcham, coach proprietor, of Andover, who was examined
by Mr. IiTIRETITHIS, gave evidence of the number of coaches and
the amount of traffic upon the old coach road, which had Wien Or
very considerably since the formation of the Great Western Rail-
way ; but in his opinion this traffic would again flow in the same
direction if the present railway were sanctioned. His occupation
brought him into communication with a considerable number of per-
sons, all of whom were anxious for the construction of this railway,
In his cross-examination by Mr. &Arm, he admitted that there
were only two coaches, exclusive of the mails, which went the
whole distance to Exeter, via Andover.
Mr. T. Mortimer, tanner, of Andover, examined by Mr. Mims,
V k ETHER—In conjunetion with his father witness had carried on the
business of a tanner for a period of between thirty and forty years.
lie received from 300 to 600 tons of hides from London every year.
and the expense of carriage of this article would be reduced abort
five shillings per ton if the proposed railway were made.
f6rttenedriei4ng and
es. In conse-
quence Reading. and other
de3alltr.e.Wro.,Disoivulielyn,inof
steVealidsopylieeldwasa farmi
want of railway accommodation. The
vantage in consequence of the
markets of London, Salisbury., Andover,
and Salisbury was l • n miles.
send
?affterosredtoedgrtsheaetil
distance between
high prices which the steamers at Southampton charged
qpulaccnecse..fTiziree market of Andover laboured uendee,r, considerable Weed-
de
ofanceillot facilities st forl
atrhgeeet in transmission
Eng
an
England. There
sThheeepr e towewere
Andovereis o foaithre,rw,herlychlargwa:
Londontrstihiet:fonnri:t the ;11;p:e'er
tpoeofrs.g7oTdf:
The
fairs in that neighbourhood which would be accommodated by the
r ilw ay . having
proposed was
g them conveyed
railwayl icgto ehndil fehty:aebbdoiwa

The ClIAlllll.li intimated, at this stage of the proceedings, that
there was no necessity for multiplying evidence upon the question of
traffic. The Committee had heard evidence from different persona
of various trades and occupations connected with the amount of
traffic, and it was reasonable to suppose that other branches of trade
were of the same nature. By a glance at the map and the course
the line proposed to take, it was self-evident that the amount of
traffic must be very large.
Mr. Ilti.Draas said that he was quite content to offer
no further evidence on the subject, he only wished to protect We
clients from any Injurious effects which might arise from his Learned
Friend, Mr. Talbot, bringing forward a large quantity of evidence,
and using against them the statement that they had not made out a
case for the necessity of the line before the Committee.
➢ir. TaLsor intimated that it was his intention to bring forward a
considerable amount of evidence bearing upon the district between.
Exeter and Yeovil.

The CnAtamAN said that he had expressed the opiniona of We
Committee upon the subject. The parties must, therefore, use their
own discretion, and adopt that course which they thought 'best
adapted to promote the interests of the public.
Mr. Avery, of Honiton, grocer and wine merchant, and formerly a
coach proprietor, said that the feeling of the inhabitant* of lionitos
was unanimous in favour of the proposed line. He received about
140 tons of goods annually from London and other parts, which
would be conveyed by this railway at a less cost than he had to pay
at present.

Mr. Divett, M.P. for Exeter, one of the directors of the Bristol and
Exeter Railway, which was a broad gauge line, said he was certainly
in favour of the broad gauge, but he thought that it was ex-
tremely desirable in a public point of view that there should be a
continuous line connecting the south-Western and South-Eastern
Railway on the narrow gauge ; he thought suck a railway would
not only afford great public accommodation, but it would also have
the effect of exercising a wholesome competition.
Cross-examined by Mr. TALBOT—It would be a most serious VP-

lamity,if Exeter were to be deprived of its present broad gauge coro-
municstion with London. lie believed that his constituents at :#,',:x-
eter were almost entirely unanimous in tavour of the proposed. line,
and several public meetings had been held in that city in favour of
this line. lie thought it very important that there should be a line
connecting Exeter with Plymouth and the other ports on the coast,
He did not think it probable that any negotiations could be entered
into by the directors et the Bristol and Exeter line with Mr. Hudson
without his cognizance. He thought there was no foundation for the
report of such a negotiation having been entered into.
Mr. iIiLDYARD said Sir E. Duckworth, Bart" M.P. for Exeter,

was in attendance, but they did not think, in consequence of the in-
timation of the Committee, that it was necessary to call him before

Mr JulY, of Chard, was then called, who gave evidence as to the
benefits to be derived by the construction of the proposed railway tg
the town of Chard.
Mr. Hayward, of Crewkerne, thought the present line better
aaapted for the interests of Crewkerne than the line proposed by the
Great Western Company, notwithstanding the latter line had in-
tended to run nearer to the town than the former one. Similar opi-
nions were entertained by the majority of the inhabitants of Crew-
kerne upon this subject.
Mr. J. Thytherleigh, residing at Axminster, said that be felt great
interest in the success of this line. His opinion as to the superior
write of the line before the Committee was also shared by the Mb/
bitants of Axminster. e
betvivea
Mr. T. Holloway, timber merchant, of Salisbury, itate4 that ni
were considerable quantities of timber grown in the dulstr!.
in apnea
Salisbury and Yeovil, which was at preseptAZ,
Line,
to the 'water
constructed,lf
quence of there being
without considerable expense. ThePr P.a
and rortamioutu
would open the dockYardS Southampton
no means of t.rtulet!