The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-15 00:00:00

become still sounder in 1348, and they, therefore, ought for, seeing'that in two of the three cases of Mitchel.
at once to be ;reduced into practice. The errors corn- O'Brien, and Meagher, the juries could not agree, and
mitted in the agitation for repeal afforded the Legisla- that that morning's newspapers informed them that the
ture no excuse for not having long since passed remedial jury could not agree in the case of Doherty, he felt that
measures, and it was now the mere necessary, in order sense such measure was necessary, otherwise trial by .
to establish a government of opieion instead of one of jury in Ireland would be a mockery. The Noble Earl
I
force. As an Irish Peer, a Rumniu Catholic, and an then proceeded to make a complaint against the officials
Englishman, he could not resist the opportunity of thus of the Government for supporting by their voice and
publicly protesting against the continuance of a system their money the repeal candidate for the city of Dublin
of government which had made Ireland the weakness ir.- at the last election. The first man that tendered his •
stead of the strength of the nation, and had exhibited vote for that Hon. Gentleman at the last election was
her as an outrage on humanity and a scandal to the the Attorney-General, Mr. Monaghan, and two other
whole world.—(Hear, hear.) gentlemen connected by office with the Government had
The Marquis of LANDSDOWNE said that, although given large sums of money to support the defence to the
his Noble Friend had not opposed the motion for going petition against him. The condition of Ireland was such
into Committee on the Bill, and although he had not that the Government could not afford to lose caste with
intimated an intention to oppose any part of its provi- the loyal portion of the people by sanctioning such con-
sions, he had made same observations connecting the duct. It was want of character in the French Go-,
Bill with the general state of Ireland, to which he (the rernment which led to the late revolution, and he mud
Marquis of Lansdowne) thought it necessary to offer therefore protest against the Gotiernment permitting,
some reply. In the outset he (the Marquis of Lens- their subordinates to support the carrying on of such a
downe) protested against the Bill not being considered war as had been now going on for the last eight years
in the strictest and largest sense a remedial measure, in Ireland.
and be thought he could prove that the delay of such Lord REDESDALE denied the assertion of the Noble
measures had originated in Ireland itself, and not in Earl (Shrewsbury), that the Roman Catholics were still
this or the other branch of the Legislature.—(Bear, degraded, insulted,, oppressed, and tormented. As for
hear.) Remedial measures had engaged the perpetual their being excluded from juries, he admitted it ; but it
attention of both—neither the one ncr the other had been arose from the circumstance of there being very few
inattentive to them. Oee of these had been the measure Roman Catholics in Ireland who were loyal and well
for altering the relations between landlord and tenant, affected subjects. He might say, that at least four-fifthi
the object of which was to exci e and create an induce- of them were disloyal.
ment to improve the cultivation of Ireland. Another The Marquis of CLANRICARDE felt himself called
question, also surrounded with difficulties, was the culti- on to contradict this statement in the strongest manner.
vation of the waste lands and the reclamation of bogs in There were hundreds and thousands of Roman Catholics
that country. This could not be done without capital, and in Ireland who were as loyal subjects as any in Great"
capital would not be introduced . without that protection Britain, and many of whom had distinguished themselves
to it which the Bill now under consideration would by their exertions to support the law.—(Hear.) ,
afford. It was said the Irish people required an im- Their Lordships then went into Committee.
proved franchise and an extension of municipal rights, The first clause having been agreed to,
but he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) held that such rights The Earl of GLENGALL moved a clause empowere
and privileges, it exercised under a tyranny, became a ing the Lord-Lieutenant to suppress any association as;
public nuisance.—(Hear, hear.) Before the Legislature sembling bodies of the people in Ireland which he should
moved in any of these questions, it ought to take care deem to be dangerous to the public peace or injurious to
that the law was maintained and peace and order pre- the due administration of the law.
served.—(Hear, hear.) No Government could be car- The Marquis of LANSDOWNE considered the clauie
vied on without more or less of force, and what there unnecessary. The Repeal Association was not now in
was of force must be on the side of the Government.— existence, and it remained to be seen what means would '
(Hear, hear.) This Bill, he repeated, was a remedial be taken to revive it. He could say, besides, that the
measure, inasmuch as it removed that. which was a bar Government felt perfectly satisfied that with the extra:,'
to improvement, and resisted the. progress of measures ordinary powers which Parliament had granted them the
not forgotten by the Government but necessarily sus- executive in Ireland would be able to suppress any illegal'
pended from the state of things which unfortunately or seditious assembly. He therefore considered this
prevailed in Ireland.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He measure ample as it stood without the special provision
denied that either House of Parliament had exhibited now moved.—(Hear, hear.)
an indifference to consider remedies for the correction Lord MONTEAGLE suggested that the clause should
of the evils of that country, but he must remind be withdrawn in order that the Bill should pass without
the Noble Earl that as to the mode of effecting those any apparent difference of opinion.
remedies a vast difference of opinion existed, even The Duke of WELLINGTON said that no one would
among Irish Members themselves. The difference of rejoice more than he should to see these associations ef-
of opinion was such as not to induce him (the Marquis fectually put down and discontinued—but, considering
of Lansdowne) to anticipate perfect unanimity even in a the answer of the Noble Marquis, and considering-that
Parliament sitting at College-green.—(Hear, hear.) the Government was satisfied with the Bill as it stood.
During the last half century there had prevailed in the he did not think it would be expedient for the House to
Imperial Parliament one constant endeavour to improve adopt the measure (for it was a measure in itself) and•
the state sad !condition of Ireland, and this session, in would, therefore, recommend his Noble Friend not to
the midst of all existing difficulties, a measure had been press his clause.
passed to prevent the eviction of tenants in a manner The Earl of GLENGALL was convinced that unless
which had been so loudly andeso justly complained of. some sueh measure was adopted, the system of agitation.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—And that Bill has re- would recommence the moment the Act for the Suspen-
ceived the Royal assent to-day, sion of the Habeas Corpus ceased, which was in March
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—Yes, in the midst next. He would not press the clause against the opin-
of all the existing opposition to law and order in Ire- ions which had been expressed.
land this measure had been passed. In addition, the The clause was then withdrawn, and after, the intro-
Government had introduced, and the Parliament had duction of some amendments, at the suggestion of the
sanctioned, the Incumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill, which LORD CHANCELLOR, the Bill was reported.
had also received the Royal assent. This was a most PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORS BILL.
important practical measure, which, by producing a true Lord BEAUMONT, in moving the second reading,
arrangement of property; would introduce capital, culti- explained that the object of this Bill, which had been
vation, and improvement into that country. With re- sent up from the other House, was not practically to in•
ference to the religious point which had been raised, he terfere with, but to carry out, the rate-paying clauses
begged to remind his Noble Friend how different was of the Reform Bill. The provision of the Reform Act
the present state of the Roman Catholic body from that which made the right to vote depend on the payment,
which it had formerly been' before' the removal of the before the 20th of July, of the rates and taxes due he
disabilities affecting them. ' For a series of years the Le- the previous April, operated in numerous instances to
gislature had endeavoured to improve the condition of disfranchise persons perfectly solvent, and in every other
the Roman Catholics, and still his Noble Friend seemed respect qualified to vote, and who had omitted paying
to think that more was required to be done. But what the rates and taxes, not from any inability to pay, or
had been the change which had been effected in this neglect of their own, but from the neglect of the. col-
respect? It was only within the last twenty-four-hours lector, who, being often a person of strong political bile,
he had happened to meet with an Irish newspaper managed by omitting to call on those electors who en"
of the date of 1773, and what did it show the con- tertained opposite views to his own, to influence there'
dition of the Roman Catholics then to be under an gister by keeping out their names. By the presient Bill
Irish Parliament ? In 1773 the Roman Catholics not it was proposed to leave the test of the right to vote, the
being able to hold any property, either in fee simple or payment of rates and eaxes, but to require the priernieitt
in leaseholds, some bold and liberal spirits of the day before the 20th of July, of the amount due up, to the
conceived the idea of enabling them to hold leasehold October instead of the April preceding. This would
property only, and a measure was proposed to give them prevent a practical abase which was now much culr
the liberty of holding-fifty acres in leasehold. This plained of, and would open the register to some of the
was reduced to forty square perches of land, and then most wealthy and respectable householders, who were
it,was required to be situated not in rural but in town now too often improperly excluded. It was notprO.
districts. Such was the liberality of the Irish Parlia- ' posed that the Bill should come into operation for a year'
' ment at that time; and he had • taken the paper up ex- . The Duke of WELLINGTON thought the,Neti°
pectirtg-to find that this measure had been carried; but, Lord ought not to press a measure which prapticslit
though orator after orator had risen, the Bill was thrown would effect a considerable change in the Reform AO
out, and three-fourths Grebe subjects of the Crown were in so thin a House. He ,could not consent to the.peo. '
: , prevented • holding- lands either by purchase or under posed change, and hoped the Noble Lord would with"
leases.', Looking- at what had • since been done, he draw the Bill for the present session. . •
thought no candid mind could refuse to assent that there Lord CAMPBELL denied that the Bill departed feel°
had been every disposition 'on the part of the Legisla • the principle of the Reform Bill; but it was by refusing
ture to improve the condition of Ireland. Other mea- such reasonable and necessary changes -al this that the
sures have been contemplated, but have been delayed principle was endangered.
'by the rebellion which unfortunately existed at present; Lord REDESDALE opposed the second reading,
but when peace, law, and order were restored, then the Earl GREY supported it. As the law at present
consideration of those measures would be resumed, and stood, they put it in the power of the parish officer to
they would, he was confident, engage th© best and most deprive a man of his vote, for he could allow the three
anxious attended orboth Houses of Parliament. months to pass without calling for his rates, and the.
The Duke of WELLINGTON was noxious to sup- disfranchise him, whereas were the period six months,
port the-Bill which had been introduced by the Noble he could not be without calling for payment of thee°
and Learned Lord on the woolsack; but he was glad without endangering his own situation.
• that he had given way to the Noble Marquis who had The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH opposed the messonf•
just sat down. The Noble Earl opposite (the Earl of If people allowed their rates to run on three months with:
Shrewsbury) had mentioned a list of grievances which out pae ing them, it was their own fault, and showed tit
he required to have remedied before the adoption of this if they valued the franchise much, they would pay ino"
measure, which was intended to put down the open re- attention to retaining it.
hellion which was now known to exist in Ireland. The The Earl of STRAFFORD supported the Bill. I
question really for the House now to decide was whether Lord BEAUMONT declined to withdraw it, and _;t
it would go into Committee on this Bill, which was nei- was then read a second time.
ther more nor less than es:measure to amend and con- The other Bills en their Lordships' table were the'
tinue several Acts of Parliament having for their objt ct forwarded a stage, and their Lordships adjourned e 1!..."
the putting down of secret societies in Ireland, and which Quarter past Nine.
had been the means of forming, promoting, and carrying
on rebellion in that country fifty years ago. Now in
modern times, in the reign of the existing sovereign,
secret societies, under the name of clubs, have been
formed all over Ireland, which clubs it was obvious were
the means of organisation and disc pline against her
Majesty's Government in that country, and which
clubs could only be put down by means of that
amendment of the law which was now pro-
posed by the Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack,
He (the Duke of Wellington) knew the nature of mili-
tary operations, and he could tell their Lordships that a
sneasuraeoLthis kind was absolutely necessary, and must
be carried into effect with activity, in order toput own
without extraordinary and enormous bloodshed the state
of things which now existed in Ireland. It had been
said that remedial measures ought to precede this; but
he would remind the Noble Earl opposite (the Earl of
Shrewsbury) that the last forty• years had been passed
in adopting measures to improve the condition of Ireland,
and there had not been a single session in which many
measures had not been adopted by all Governments to
effect that object. The Noble Earl had complained of
the oaths administered to their Lordships on taking their
seats in that House, and seemed to think that these oaths
had brew unjustly imposed. Now he (the Duke of
' Wellington), having been in this and the other House
of -Parliament for a very considerable number of
years, bad some recollection of the origin of the oaths
complained of by the Noble Earl, and if he was not very
much mistaken every one of those oaths was founded on the
propositions contained in the petitions of those who were
afterwards to take those eery oaths: Those petitioners de-
manded certain concessions from Parliament, and it was
required that some protection ought to be secured to
that institution which he trusted the Legislature would
never cease to protect—the Established Church. The
• petitioners accordingly suggested these oaths, and he could
prove that these oaths were framed on the model which
those petitioners furnished. Therefore, the Noble Earl had
no ground for complaint with respect to these oaths. It
• did not, however, signify what had been done or what
' remained to be done, he (the Duke of Wellington) con

HOUSE OF COMMONS. August 14.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday')
The House resumed at Five o'clock.
PETITIONS.
Mr. PATTISON presented a petition from the three
denominations, praying for the abolition of the Regiofli
Donum.

-
Mr. LUSHINGTON presented a petition from the
Health of Towns Association in favour of sanitar'
reform.
Mr. WOOD presented a petition from five digeroPt
orders of Odd Fellows, praying, that their socielles
might be legalised.

ROYAL COMMISSION. -
The Usher of the Black Rod appeared at the table
summon the House to attend at the bar of the House.o
Lords to hear the Royal assent given to several public
and private Bills.
The SPEAKER, on his return, informed the Soy
the Royal assent had been given by commission to se,
Bills (for which see Lords' report).

COPPER, DUTIES.
Lord G. BEN TINCK presented a petition from shic,
owners, engineers, and others connected with coPPeti
lead, and tin mines, stating that the copper trade 11-d
never in a more depressed state than at present, It
praying that the Bill for altering the coffee duties
not be passed into law.
IRELAND.
Mr. V-ARDWELL presented a petition from Liver;
pool, complaining of the impoverished condition or 'i
working classes, of the reported intention of the 11°t1'it,
to adjourn on an early day—(Laughter)—and praPrif
that leave of absence might be given to those 11Ieraher.
who preferred attending to their field sports in preferen
to attending to their duties in the House of Commons,
also praying that some remedial measures might
passed for Ireland.
POOR-LAWS.
"la
Lord MORPETH presented a petition from poor"'
officers praying for superannuation allowance.
Colonel DUNNE presented a petition against d'e
present Poor-law in Ireland, and praying that a CI(
mittee might be appointed to inquire into the state
Ireland.
64'
Mr. HUME presented a petition, numerously sigli od
from Edinburgh, complaining of the ministers' tax? 11.
praying for its abolition.

tended that the measure now before the House was ab-
ioliitely necessary to maintain the government end the
state of society in Ireland. At present the whole country
was occupied by clubs, chiefly organised for the promo-
tion of military operations ; and these clubs or secret
societies must be put down.—(Hear, hear.) Let any
man read the accounts which had been given with so
much parade of the review by one gentleman at Cork,
of from 2,000 to 3,000 men, and then say that these men
had not been assembled by organised signals from Dub-
lin.—(Hear, hear.) If such was the case, was not the
measure necessary ? He hoped :the Government were
determined to put down these clubs, and to enable them
to do so ho supported this Bill.—(Hear.)
The;Earl of DESART expressed his surprise at the
tone in which the Noble Earl oppo-ite (the Earl of
Shrewsbury) had spoken of the property of the Estab-
lished Church of Ireland. If the prirciple the Noble
Earl laid down held good, it applied equally to all pro-
perty, and sanctioned the communism by which every
man would be permitted to judge whether his neighbour
had enough or too much property. He should have ex-
pected the Noble Earl would have repudiated such a
principlelln his opinion Ireland had been too long made
the object of conciliation instead of government. Go-
vernment was what she wanted, and that he hoped she
would have.
The Earl of GLENGALL said he never had heard
a speech in that House which gave him so much satis-
faction as that delivered by the Noble Marquis that
evening. The Bill he thought good as far as it went,
and he hoped it would have the effect of putting down
those clubs, which he certainly thought could not be
put down by the ordinary operation of the law. But
he regretted that the Government had not resolved
esolvcdto go one step further, and suppress the Repeal
Asso-
ciation, to which, and to the agitation cat ried on through
its agency, and to the pestilential and seditious doctrines
which emanated from it, he entirely attributed the mi-
sery of Ireland. He did not believe that by this Bill,
aided by the common law, the Government had the
power to put down that association, which was only giv-
ing rise to the existence of a group of venal hypocrites
and sordid impostors, and unless they did put it down
they would be doing nothing but an infinity of mischief.
He, therefore, hoped they would apply to Parliament
before the session closed for powers to enable them to
suppress
,that pestilential body, and with it the repeal
agitation. He was satisfied that if agitation were sup-
pressed for even five or six years prosperity would soon
follow, and Ireland become a source of wealth to the
nation, instead of being forced to look to the public ex-
chequer for support. With these opinions he should
certainly feel it his duty to move a clause when
their Lordships went into Committee, having for
its object the immediate suppression of the Repeal
Association. lie was also of opinion that they
ought to revive the jury clause of the Co-
OiVioll Dill of 3.33 for constituting military prices

LETTERS PATENT. f th.
Mr. BOUVERIE moved an address for returns ° eft
number of letters patent for inventions sealed in ear
year at Westminster respectively, for the last tell Yeb-cr
ending the 31st day of December, 1847. Of the winitor
of letters patent for the colonies only, during the spds
period. Of the number of disclaimers and mow:0111c;
of alterations enrolled since the passing of the 4/,
5 & 6 Will. 4, c. 83, to the 31st day of December, 18,if.
Of the fees paid at the different offices, and on the r
fereat stages of passing such letters patent ; sPecifY:•l;
1. the amount ; 2. at what office or stage P-1 4,
3, the duties performed or services rendered therefor'
the application and appropriation of the fees I,,se
the increased and additional or extra fees in c
on
of opposition and otherwise; also of the fees Pl"tioa
the enrolment of specifications, and on applic%ds
for and on the enrolment of disclaimers and melloriLvis
of alterations, specifying particulars under the preil,o
head ; similar returns for Scotland ; and similar re'
for Ireland.—Agreed to.

'THE NEW FOREST.
Lord DUNCAN wished to ask the Noble Lord the
Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests what stePl,lle:
had taken, as Chief Commissioner of Woods, in ',-rd
"
quence of the private information which it was his k'if to
Duncan's) painful duty to communicate to him, anew
the Committee of Woods, of which he was chairularis:
as also, whether, from circumstances which have tralirt,
Aired since the Committee of Woods made their rerof
he had any reason to believe that an organised bYsteluro.
plunder and depredation upon the timber and other Pied
party of the Crown in the New Forest has been cart
on for a considerable period to an alarming extent ?a
too
Viscount MORPETH had to state that there 14
much reason to believe that a system of fraud and deft to
dation had prevailed for a lone- time past with resPe' the
the cutting of timber in the New Forest. As soon asoodo
subject had been brought under the notice of the otl
and Forests, by the researches of his Noble Friend so,
the Committee which had been appointed, he ha a tells
gaged the services of a gentleman connected with lb
dockyards, every way likely to conduct the inquiry
success, and a legal gentleman of eminence was aPPLeI ip•
with him. Those gentlemen were prose cuting tue,oo6
quiries with great activity and ability, and two
had been already committed to take their trial in coa
quence of the disclosures mad.
Lord DUNCAN wished toe know if it were true. °11,1;
the Deputy-Surveyor, Colonel Thornhill, had sent le
resignation?
Viscount MORPETH replied that that officer, hficil,
bou for oorao timo fang ototo of boaltbi b"
1'1,14