The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-28 00:00:00

Some Honourable Members named as a remedy an
extensive system of out-door relief ; but if the
Hon. and Learned Member for Cork, and those who supported
him were asked to assist in passing such a measure, they would
say, no. They were even opposed to the present modified sys-
tem of poor-laws in that country. The fixity of tenure, and a
tax on absentee landlords was another panacea, while other
Hon. Members wanted a measure for remedying the defects of
the law for regulating landlords and ti sleets. Where such a
diversity of opinion existed, even among Irish Members, it was
difficult for the Government to bring forward any measure
of relief that was likely to be supported. For himself he would
say, if any improvement in the poor•law was proposed, he
hoped the absentee landlords would be taxed.--( Hear, hear.)
But the Hon. Members who represented Ireland talked of re-
medial measures—why did they not state what those measures
were which they conceived calculated to do justice to the people
of that country? But as long as the representatives from Ire-
land confined their observations to repeating, and reiterating
the complaints calculated to excite the passions of the Irish
people, they must not be surprised if their motives were mis-
represented by the people of England, and if they were con-
sidered to be wholly indifferent to the calamities of their
countrymen,
Colonel VERNER said that though it was very easy to
blame tho landlords of Ireland for the disorganised state of
society exieing in Ireland, yet he could prove that they
they were perfectly innocent of this crime, for he could prove,
on undoubted authority, that there was an extensive organisa-
tion on foot, which had existed for forty years, to extermi-
nate the Protestants, and to effect a separation between Eng-
land and Ireland.—( Cries of " No, no.") He could prove it.
He could refer to sentences delivered by Hon. Members re-
presenting counties in Ireland in that House, which would
amply justify the people out of the House in keeping alive
feelings of resentment. The Hon. Member for Cork had ad-
mitted that no doubt murder had increased, and that all the
measures of Government seemed to give an increased impetus
to crime. Now, what would he have done if he wished to
put down this state of things in Ireland ? He would put
down agitation and agitators. He would put down all secret
societies, because they were in a primary degree the cause of
every evil. He would put an end to all concession—( Hear.
hear, and Oh, oh)—and conciliation.—( Renewed cries of
" Oh, oh.") (The Hon. and Gallant Member read quotations
from the National, to show that the concessions made to Ire-
land were not productive of any improvement in the social
state of Ireland.) He would refer to a petition from the Re-
peal Wardens of Wexford, which had been printed with the
votes, and in that petition he thought the House would find
abundant evidence to support the view he took on this gin s-
tion. He did not think it would be necessary for him to say
one word more upon the subject.
Mr. HAWES said that he could not agree with many. of
the opinions advanced by the Hon. Member (Mr. H. Heinle.),
who
who had spoken that evening, and still less could he concur in
the opinions of the H n. and Gallant Member who had last
spoken, that the best way to put down agitation in Ireland was
by the passing of strong measures. He should have thought
that the party to which the Hon. and Gallant Member be-
longed had had enough of strong measures.—(Hear, hear. ) •
He distincty maintained that Government had not made out the
case for this Bill, and upon this declaration he would take his
stand. Had crime increased in Ireland of late? Most as-
suredly not; and if the House would bear with him for a
while, he would convince them of this. Now, the Right Hon.
Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department had laid a
paper upon the table of the House, showing the number of
criminal offenders committed for trial in 1845, and this paper
showed a considerable decrease as compared with former years;
indeed, it exhibited a decrease of 43 per cent., and this decrease
extended itself to all classes of crime, and as regarded the
crime of murder, there had been a decrease of 28 per cent.
Now, there was nothing in this to show a necessity for a
Coercion Bill. But he might be told that it was true crime
had decreased in Ireland generally ; but that in particular
counties it had increased.—(Hear, hear.) And this Bill was
only intended to give power to proclaim particular counties, and
in this way it might be said that a case was made out for the
Bill. But how stood the fact? He would take the counties
mentioned by the Right Hon. Baronet, and see whether the
returns exhibited this increase. If the House would take the
trouble to look at the returns, they would find that the follow-
ing were the results, so far as detailed murders were concerned :
Years. Tipperary. Roscommon. Letrim. Clare. Total.
1841 22 4 1 4 31
1842 10 8 2 52 72
1843 18 0 11 0 29
1844 21 10 2 3
1845 30 0 1 4 35
So that, as regarded the particular crime of murder in these
alleged disturbed counties, they could find no justification for
a measure of this description. Since this return, however, was
made, another had been produced, which was called for by the
Hon. Member for I_ iskeard, and which contained a return made
by the police of offences committed in Ireland during the years
1842, 1843, 1544, and 1845 ; but he bslieved nothing would be
found in this return to justify the passing of a Coercion Bill.—
( Hear, hear.) The return gave the number of outrages com-
mitted which had come to the knowledge of the police, under
the three great heads, namely, offences against the person,
against property, and against the public peace ; and from this
return he gathered the following results :
Years. Person. Property.
1842 1411 2190
1843 1442 2201
1844 1700 2321
1845 1608 2216

Peace.
2187
2315
2282
4161

There was a branch of offences, in respect of which he ad-
mitted the return exhibited an increase. The crime of send-
ing threatening notices had incjeased in Ireland of late
and in the following ratio :—ln 1642 the number was 1,216 ;
in 1843, 1,212; in 1844, 13,332; and in 1845, 2,645; but
Ministers could not for a moment contend that this was a justi-
fication for the passing of their Bill.—(Hear, hear.) It
might be said that undetected crime in Ireland had increased,
but he found, on looking to the returns, that the committals
of 1845 bore an equal proportion to the committals of 1844.
He wanted to know, then, upon what grounds this Bill was to
be justified? Since the Union, seventeen blots of this cha-
racter had dropped upon the statute-book ; but in no instance
had they accomplished the end for which they were intended.
They had, however, the example of a Government who tried
the experiment of governing Ireland with a Coercion Bill ; and
the result, he was happy to say—and the House and the
country must be happy—to find that the result was met sue'
cessful. It was only necessary to refer to the Administration
of Lord Norn.anby to find evidence sufficiently conclusive of
this, and in the report of the Lords' Committee on the state of
Ireland, they had the testimony of individuals of known experi-
ence and ability in Ireland, who declared that during that Admi-
nistration crime diminished, and the country flourished to an
amazing extent. And all this was attributed to the improvements
introduced into the administration of justice. Now, he thought
he had sufficiently shown that the returns of crime in Ireland
did not justify the passing of this coercive measure ; while, on
the other hand, he had directed the attention of the House to a
period when Ireland was governed without a Coercion Bill,
and yet peace and tranquillity prevailed, and crime diminished.
They ought, then, to be guided by this experience, and not to
resort to strong and vigorous measures unless they were justi-
fied by circumstances of the most aggravating description:
Those circumstances did not exist at the present moment, an
he could see no reason for the passing of this Bill, unless it
were to increase the discontent which already existed in the
sister country. In July, 1814, the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of her Majesty's Government introduced a Bill of 3
similar description, but it failed then ; ar.d he thought the
experience which they had had in the interval was sufficient tio
.
convince them that coercive measures seldom or never met wit'
success. There was nothing to justify this Bill, either in
the outward appearance of the country, or in the documentarY
evidence which came from Ireland. The measure, or rather a
similar measure, was opposed in 1814 by Mr. Warner, and tha!
great and good man, Sir Samuel Romilly, who declared Oa'
measures of this description never allayed excitement, or pro'
duced respect for the laws; and it was in emulation of the,'
bygone philanthropists that he now, to the utmost of his humbh
ability, opposed this unjust and unnecessary measure. He 04
determined to join the Irish Members in their determined 0p
position to this Bill.—(Hear, hear)—and he conceived that iv
should be perfectly justified in so doing. This measure 14
brought down from the Lords with a full knowledge of its ten.
dency, and though the Right Hon. Gentleman had withdraict
the declaration which he had made when he introduced it, b'
(Mr. Hawes) still could not help thinking that had this
met with an unanimous reception, it would have produced]
great moral effect upon the people of Ireland—(Hear, hear)
and that, on the contrary, the measure had lost all its virtues
.
if it had any in the eyesof the people, in consequence of the in°
tifisbly determined opposition with which it had been met.",
( Hear, hear ) He firmly believed that it was a useless an
unnecessary Bill.—( Hear, hear.) Its moral effect had gone
All the popular representatives of Ireland had denied the lien'
racy of the statements made by the members of the Govere.
merit in support of this measure, and they had also unaln
mously told the House that it would be perfectly useless;
( Hear.) And from the number of threatening notices 'sit,
had been sent since its introduction, he firmly believed t°'
that assurance of the Irish representatives was grounded
facts. It would, therefore, be useless for the House to per-
sere with it.—( Hear, hear.) He could hope that the Me's
bers of the Government would not think it inconsistent Nit.
their duty, under the present circumstances, to withdraw
ill-timed measure.—( Hear, hear ) Its object had decided
0
failed ; and he therefore ventured to hope that the Governtne.
would not deem it inconsistent with the suggestions contain;
in the eloquent and able speech that had been delivered in
course of that evening by an Hon. Member (Mr. M‘Cartbir
as to the withdrawal of this Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He (lktb
Hawes) would call upon the Right Hon. Gentleman at d
head of the Government to look at the difficulties of Irelano
and he need not add to the difficulties of England also, in eft,
sequence of the delay of the Corn Bill; and he thought that it
would ,re the adviseableness of not t ressing the Coercion 8e
upon the Members of toe Legislature. He would ask hint
riously to consider whether it would be inconsistent with
public duty
bese.h—trorsi
shrink
Ic ceasehof who sat
from
imi s
uct
steadily se sdu npegohnetheeripiisntemrlres.eri)asstusiinrldgeteupon the attenticeo
the House of Commons, for it would most assuredly be opP° 0
stage by stage—(Cheers)—clause by clause—(Cheers) ---$
tinew
in
ei
tw ioeuoppositionlbtiki yi
notemi
line.—(Continued
to this measure.—( Cheers.) H
stage. The
theirt
reeiw
,u Hheladednei)
unuYt sayestoreihr
that it would be aipHreuadre.nhtesatc?.
)onTthheesptaatrehtioneooff the Govern°, -es
tthoawtittihiedrHawouiste.—would
of
gallant Member (Captain
did not justify it, and he did most sincerely hope and "a
opposeco s
Osborne)
r innoe vheardy
saidst g
that he had rootdies to propose as soon as this measure was passed, and he,: re
Hawes) had already alluded to them in the coarse of
tb
marks. It appeared that one great remedy proposed n,lact
Hon. and Gallant Member was the suppression of all Oe'ltief
or party associations in Ireland. But there were great:re'
Lions which would have to be duly weighed before a meg' tae
that sort received the sanction of the Legislature. He mailit it
that the question of the waste lands of Ireland was of wore
portanee to her peace and prosperity than the car
of such a measure as had been proposed by the 11°0% itie.
Gallant Member.—( Cheers.) There were many",lei
measures, includinz no less than eight, ten, or twelves be
down before Lord Devon's Commission, and which, "hie t
lieved, would be eminently practical as well as acceat°,s
the Irish people.— ( Hear, hear.) They were calcul°,4 tbt
confer great benefits upon Ireland, and he had no deny,,,eoYl
if they were carried out the peace and happiness of the,'"
of that country would be the result. He believed, inea-ottio,
that the people of England would not much longer °atati„
the present injustice to Ireland.--(Cheers.) The ,alsti
people were not ignorant of the present heavy taxation t 0,4 ai
they were subjected for maintaining the present police
tar force in Ireland. The Hon. Member concluded iyitt
peatin. his hope that her Majesty's Government would „roce.,,
draw the present harsh and unnecessary measure, arTari ssoti
at once to the proposal of some remedial measures, tcb.lt,
have for their tendency the real interests and pros Pert ' r
Ire h people.—( Cheers. ) , Go tbi fe
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, whether or no her Majesty ;0
ment would obtain more popularity by persevering aditti
!
measure, or by abandoning it, is hardly a considerata° inni
tr
ought to lead a Government responsible for mainta be 0
peace of the country.—( Ministerial cheers.) It n'olieseet
that more popularity might be gained by a willing acqwes),
in the proposal of the lion. Gentleman (Mr. B. H° far.
thatwou would
popularity
sacrificew ou l d
fbethgosaeine:hoa t
area cost]responsible sa et itiet; a;
oil
taining the public peace.—(Ministerial cheers.), „op
also be at the sacrifice of increased injury to life an°. rg jo'
in Ireland.—(Cheers.) I should think I was acen,9tiaelou,
respect to the people of that country to which this tOl
refers, and to the importance of the subject, if rot dn.,
the remarks of the Hon. Gentleman who has just And 7
to pass without some observations on my per;t",„ she
would hope, after what has been said during