The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-11 00:00:00

T 11

FRIDAY EVENING, AUGUST 11, 1848.

woul
(di
bneoftottirno(ii trouble theirn
tilepa
pe s he
L ,r,rdsh ivp,a u s with dtetioail
lays, _casai thethey
noli, table.
having wa
a t
s iimrpivoirnctl om
aricttomuni3
observet, that Port Pe i I i p,
without one shilling of expense to iad
thebeen
mother-country;
and ;
oi e s
advanceto
till encounter,a
largeand surplus
ucso srtc,,
steadily
yuuittth Australia, although it had had tem-
porarytpai ann riulaetdeivvseetiedyi , a considerable
i;
cen:omuwe-
em..igrants to which
hhawt acsouatptrryo.l)
t•Ak.l been realised, whi
entirely emerged from those difficulties, and had con-
tinued
success of that colony was owing to the
riNateeidthtoertchoeuclodnivtebye-
which had been discovered there,
difficultieswea; of the colony, which were at their
gshbareeiecidgaahtutsthmeilinttnhelerBa4lo, had in 1843 been completely overcome,
and the colony was in a state of advancing prosperity
before the mines had been opened to an extent of any
importance. It was entirely a mistake to suppose that
these colonies had been formed by merely one class of
society, or by the emigration of labourers only. So far
from that being the case there were to be found settled in
those colonies retired officers of the army and navy—
gentlemen who had taken high degrees and honours at
the universities, and many other persons of education
and intelligence. Indeed, both in South Australia and
New South Wales there was a very large population of
superiorly educated and intelligent men. He must there-
fore say, that looking at this state of facts, it was impos-
sible to admit the truth of what had been very confidently
asserted—that the art of colonization was lost to the
present age. On the contrary, he believed that coloni-
zation never had, in the history of the world, made such
rapid progress as in the instances he had stated to their
Lordships .—(Hear, hear.) He would recal their Lord-
ships' attention for a moment to a very interesting com-
parison drawn by Mr. Merivale, now Assistant-Secretary
of State for the Colonies, between the progress made by
the South Australian colonies and the old colonies
which now constituted the United States of North
America. The progress of the new colonies, as com-
pared with the old colonies, was really marvellous. The
population of Sydney in 1836 was 19,000; in ten years
it was actually doubled, and in 1846 was 38,000. Com-
paring this with the old colony of Boston, its population
in 1790 (170 years after its foundation) was 18,000. The
population of the city of New York in 1773 (immediately
before the breaking out of the war), was only 21,896,
being 17,000 less than Sydney at the present day. The
population of Philadelphia, in 1780, was 28,528. The
population of the old American colonies, in 1773, was
about 2,300,000; and the population of the Australian
colonies, in 1845, was 283,873. Then with respect to
the trade of the two classes of colonies, the imports of
the old American colonies, in 1773, amounted to little
above 1,000,000/., while the imports of the Australian
colonies, in 1845, amounted to 2,070,0001. The exports
of the old American colonies, in 1773, were short of
2,000,0001., while the exports of the Australian colonies,
in 1845, were 2,185,0001.; or, if a contrast were taken be-
tween the value of the trade, per head, on the population,
it would appear that the imports, per head, for the old
American colonies, was Bs. 9d., and for Australian
71. ss. 10d.; and the exporta,per head, for the former,
16s. Bd., and for the latter, 71. 14s. 3d. Such had been
the progress of these colonies. He thought their Lord-
ships would agree that this statement sufficiently refuted
the common notion that the art of colonization was a
lost one; that the population of this country were less
enterprising and adventurous than the population of
former days; and that there was less capital employed
in carrying on such enterprises with advantage.—(Hear,
hear.) On the contrary, he believed that if their Lord-
ships contrasted the progress—almost without a check
—and the steady and uniform current of prosperity of
these colonies with the difficulties and the formidable:
calamities which in earlier days were experienced by the
old American colonies, the result would indeed be most
remarkable. And this result, he begged to repeat, was
owing entirely to the enterprising and persevering spirit
of the population of this country, aided as they had been
by modern science and modern improvements in the art
of navigation. When, above all, their Lordships consi-
dered the great difference in the length of the voyage to
the old colonies in America and the Australian colo-
nies, the result of the comparison became still more
striking. But, great as this progress had been, he was
far from saying it was not the duty of Parliament and
the Government to use all such means as were in their
power for giving a still increased impetus to the system
of emigration. He wished to show their Lordships that
this had not been overlooked. In 1845, for want of funds,
emigration to Australia was nearly stopped. In 1846
the Land Emigration Commission was in a position to
recommence their labours, and in that year about 2,000
persons were sent to the colonies. Since then the stream
of emigration to South Australia had steadily and con-
stantly been flowing. Last year the Governor of New
South Wales reported that the debt which had been
charged upon the Crown revenues was nearly paid off,
and he believed that he might safely venture to resume
promoting emigration to that port. Sir C. Fitzroy sent
in support of that opinion a report, in consequence of
which he (Earl Grey) directed the Emigration Commis-
sioners immediately to resume sending emigrants to the
port of Sydney, and accordingly towards the close of
last year emigration was resumed. Tho first ship sailed
about the month of October. Since then ships to New
South Wales had been continually going, the funds appli-
cable to those purposes having more than kept pace with
the demand. By a return in his possession it appeared
that in the present year there had already sailed to New
South Wales 23 emigrant ships, carrying 5,343 emi-
grants; that there httd sailed 11 ships to South Aus-
tralia, carrying 2,736 emigrants; making a total of 8,059
emigrants. A great many more ships, estimated as
many as 40, were expected to be dispatched before the
close of the present year, carrying out no less than
10,000 persons. So that in -the Course of the present
year there would be added to the population of those
two colonies, New South Wales and South Australia, not
less than 18,059 persons, which would be an increase of
between eight and nine per cent. upon the whole pre-
vious population. In South Australia the population at
the commencement of 1846 was 22,390. There had
since been dispatched by the Land and Emigration Com-
missioners nearly 8,000 emigrants, or more than one-
third of the then existing population. In New South
Wales, according to a report dated September, 1847, of
a Committee of the Legislative Council, the number
of hired servants throughout the colony did not exceed
30,000. The number of emigrants to be dispatched in
1848 would be nearly 13,000. So much as to the extent
of emigration to be carried on this year. He now
wished for a moment to call the attention of their Lord-
ships to the manner in which this service had been per-
formed by the Land and Emigration Commissioners.
He held in his hand a paper whick'was an enclosure in
a recent dispatch, being a report of the Colonial Secre-
tary in South Australia to the Governor of that colony,
with respect to the condition of the emigrants. He
said—" The healthy condition in which the immigrants
were landed from the several vessels which have arrived
in this colony during the past quarter, and the total
absence of any complaints, either from the passengers
or on the part of those under whose direction they were
placed during the voyage, are facts which of themselves
speak most favourably for the arrangements made in
England in connexion with this service. The emigrants
were generally well selected, and suited to the wants of
this country. The superintendents appear, without ex-
ception, faithfully to have discharged the duties en-
trusted to them; and although some few alterations in
the minor details of the arrangement have been recom-
mended by them in their daily journals, still the circum-
stances above mentioned, concurring
as they do to show
the efficiency of the measures adopted to promote the
varied interests at stake, cannot but be satisfactory to
the Commissioners, on whom so much responsibility is
devolved. The vessels employed in the emigration ser-
vice make quicker passages than those engaged only in
the conveyance of merchandise; of those which arrived
in the colony during the last three months, the longest
on the voyage was 106, the shortest 89 days, making an
average in the whole of 94 1-3 days. It may not be
foreign to the present report here to remark, that the
young unmarried females who immigrate to this colony,
without friends or relations on board, are on their arrival
here at once removed from on board the vessels in which
they were brought to a house in Adelaide, where every
necessary comfort is in readiness for their reception.
They were placed under the immediate control of a ma-
tron, and a committee of ladies have benevolently under-
taken to assist them in finding suitable employment."
He would now proceed to state some of the measures
which had been adopted for increasing and extending
emigration to these colonies. In the first place he must
remark that the expense must be mainly provided for
considerable
eh
rea Britishle
by the colonies themselves. The voyage was so much
longer and co muoh more expansive than the voyage
to America, that unless the colonies paid a very large
portion of the expense the emigrants would in all
pro-
portion of the expenses actually came from private
sources in this country. the voyage to South Australia
was about three months, and somewhat longer to New
ccoalsoensie prefer
or to to going
the United Utoni America, either
eithAer to
sidt b
South Wales, and occasioned' a very expensive outfit,
more especially for clothes, the emigrants being exposed
to the vicissitudes of the climate. This expense was
calculated to cost the emigrant about 51., which. rather
exceeded the whole sum for which they could obtain
their voyage to America. The instructions which ho
(Earl Grey) had given to the Land and Emigration
Commissioners on this head were these—that they were
to consider themselves as trustees acting for the colonies
and to see that the greatest amount of good was ren-
dered to the colonists by the application of the land
fund. They were to watch carefully the demand made
for a passage to America and to the colonies, and to
raise as much as they could the amount to be contri-
buted by individuals. Those applications varied very
much in number from year to year. About a year ago,
the harvest making a great demand for labour, there
was some difficulty in obtaining a full number of emi-
grants from the different parts of the United Kingdom
for Australia. But now, unfortunately owing to the de-
pression of trade and the diminution of employment,
there was a great demand for passages to the Australian
colonies; and the agents of the Commissioners were able
to add an additional 1/. to be contributed by the emi-
grants themselves towards the cost of the voyage, thus
making the amount available from the colonies sufficient
for carrying out a larger number of emigrants. In some
cases larger contributions were raised from individuals
owing to peculiar circumstances. When a person ap-
plied for a passage who was not strictly qualified ac-
cording to the rules to be an emigrant, as being adapted
to the wants of the colonies, the Commissioners were
directed, in consideration of some additional payment,
to accept such a person as an emigrant who would not
otherwise be taken. Ho would mention an instance.
In consequence of the recent French revolution a
large number of English workmen were compelled
to leave France. Those were persons engaged in
manufactures and were not used to agricultural
, la-
hour, and therefore not the most eligible class for
emigration. But it being doubtful whether they would
obtain employment at home, and as they were anxious
to proceed to the colonies, he wished to afford them
every facility to do so, and after consulting Lord Ashley
on the subject it was arranged that if a Private subscrip-

lion
equal to a sit.na of 4/. -a head should be contributed
fur
ittoth erm
from easi
ciraenfarration were aware
d omm a n
that
and
iic
l largehhe he
m
an adult, 2/. for each child, they should be sent out
jto the colonies, lie had reason to believe they would
ghohad
emigrated, sus f
especially
from
prove a most valuable class of emigrants. There was
valuable results. Those who had attended to the
moneyemi-
were re-
mittedUexnpiteeertledSttaatdeseritvoe vtheirsY
country by persons who
Ireland, for the purpose of enabling their friends to go
out and join them. This he considered to be emigration
rm
of the best description. There were great facilities
for
making these remittances from America, butin Australia
enteredto
the
consulate, into
it no such facilities existed. It was determined to
afford them, and accordingly an arrangement bad been
remitted to a
yd
whichy
ipet r swason
with
h to th
have
e Treasuryit e now in the power of any emigrant, by paying money
in whose favour it was deposited. 'The wages in
Australia were higher than those in America, and la-
bour continued all the year, so that opportunities for
accumulation were greater there than in America. He
had reason to hope that the working men would club to-
gether and enable one or more of their friends to emi-
grate, in the first instance, who should afterwards make
remittances to them to assist others to go out to 'join
them. He would not at present allude to New Zealand
or the Cape, because the papers he had referred only to
the Australian colonies., Large emigration this year
would lead to larger next, because those who went out as
labourers soon became themselves employers of labour.
With regard to the North American colonies, it was the
anxious intention of her Majesty's Government to devise
means which could be adopted to promote emigration to
that quarter. The Noble Earl then referred to a speech
which had just been received, addressed by Sir C. Fitz-
roy to the Legislative Council of iNew South Wales, on
opening the session on the 24th of March in the present
y ear. He said—"lt is consolatory to reflect that, not-
withstanding the commercial depression which pre-
vails to so great an extent in the mother country,
and the consequent low prices of colonial produce in
that market, the chief resources of this colony
have continued to increase in a manner alike rapid and
surprising. The exports of wool—its main staple—
reached in the past year the large quantity of upwards
of 22,000,0001 b., of the official value of 1,260,0001., being
an increase on the previous year exceeding 5,700,0001 b.
in weight, or equal to the whole export of that article in
the year 1838. The export of tallow in 1847 was 69,000
cwt., of the official value of 107,0001., being an increase
on'the previous year of 49,000 cwt. It is our privilege
to continue to enjoy, under the blessing of Divine Provi-
dence, a great superabundance of 'all the necessaries of
life, of the best quality, and procurable at very moderate
rates. Although the advanced and still rising price of
agricultural and pastoral labour, consequent on its
scarcity, has lately pressed so severely on the employers,
it has on the other hand been the source of highly re-
munerative employment to the working classes; but, as
no community in the aggregate can long continue to be
prosperous where the fair profits of the capitalist are
liable to be absorbed in the payment of an excessive or
disproportionate rate of wages, I have endeavoured, by
seeking fresh supplies of labour from the mother country,
to restore that equilibrium, the maintenance of which
between the two classes is so essential to the general as
well as to their mutual welfare. The anticipations
which I entertained in my last opening address to the
Council have, I am glad to say, been fully realised.
The whole of the Land and Immigration Debentures
have been paid off, and the territorial revenue has
exhibited so prosperous a state as to have enabled me to
request her Majesty's Government to send out to the
colony, in addition to the 5,000 statute adults already
promised—and of whom the two first shiploads lately
arrived in the Hyderabad and Lady Peel—an equal
number in the ensuing season. There is every prospect
that the whole of this immigration may be effected with-
out the necessity of incurring any debt. The territorial
revenue will thus remain available as a security for rais-
ing the necessary funds for any additional supply of
labour which circumstances may render expedient. The
emigrants now in progress of arriving are to be selected
equally from the three great divisions of the United
Kingdom. They are also to be equally divided between
the Sydney and Port Philip districts, and the expense
charged accordingly, so that each district will receive
the number for which it pays." The Noble Earl con-
cluded by laying the papers on the table of the House.
Lord MONTEAGLE confessed that while he had
heard from his Noble Friend much which was consola-
tory to him as confirming the principles which he had
long advocated. he had at the same time heard with
a dismay which it was impossible for him to describe the
small promise, or rather the no promise at all, which his
Noble Friendhad held out with respect to this impor-
tant subject. He was persuaded that this feeling of dis-
appointment and dismay would be participated in by the
great bulk of the population who had turned their atten-
tion to this question—from the higher class, who viewed
it merely as a matter of political or philosophical inte-
rest, to the poorer class, whose very- existence was in-
volved in it. He confessed he was disappointed in the
Noble Lord's speech on many accounts. He was disap-
pointed, in the first place, with respect to the Noble
Lord himself ; for if ever an individual was pledged to
consider this question on a large and comprehensive
scale, his Noble Friend was the individual who stood so
pledged. The first act of the Noble Lord's official life
was to introduce this -question to the consideration of
the other House of Parliament ; and in order to show
the views which his Noble Friend then entertained on
the subject he would trouble their Lordships with an
extract from the speech delivered on that occasion :
" Before any measure could be introduced for the perma-
nent relief of the poor in Ireland it would be absolutely,
necessary to relieve that country from- its superabund-
ance of population. The transfer of a part of our super-
abundant labourers to the colonies would be equally be-
neficial to all parties, by diminishing the overwhelming
competition under which they now suffer ; to the settler,
by affording him the means of cultivating his land ; and
both to this country and to the colony, by relieving much
of the distress now existing in the former, and by adding
to the productive industry of the latter." On Mr. C. Bul-
ler's motion in 1843 the Noble Lord said :—" His opi-
nion was strongly fixed that we were, it was true, on the
right road, but that we had not made all the progress
that was desirable. He thought it of the greatest im-
portance that emigration should be encouraged to a
much greater extent than at present, and he believed it
was in the power of her Majesty's Ministers to take
measures that would give much greater extension to the
system than it now possessed." He appealed to their
Lordships whether in the scheme which his Noble Friend
had submitted to them on the present occasion there was
any approximation to the enlarged and systematic scheme
of colonization which was shadowed forth in 'he extracts
he had just read? Then how did the Colonial-office
stand with respect to this question? On the Ist of June,
1847, an address was moved and carried unanimously,
praying that her Majesty would " take into her most
gracious consideration the means by which colonization
may be made subsidiary to other measures for the im-
provement of the social condition of Ireland ; and by
which, consistently with a full regard to the interests
of the colonies themselves, the comfort and prosperity
of those who emigrate may be effectually promoted.
On that occasion--although no commission was ap-
pointed, which was the object of the motion
—it was distinctly promised by the Government that
an inquiry should take place.—(Hear, hear.) Her
Majesty's reply to that address was as follows:—" I
have taken into my consideration the address of my
faithful Commons. I am deeply sensible of the advan-
tage which may be derived from the adoption of further
measures for the promotion of colonization; and I will
direct such inquiries to be made as may enable Parlia-
ment to adopt a course free from those evils which any
precipitate legislation on the subject might cause both to
the emigrants and the colonies." Such was the engage-
ment entered into by the Government and the Crown in
relation to the address of the Commons. He asked his
Noble Friend whether any step had since been taken on
the subject?—(" Hear, hear," from Earl Grey.) Well,
he asked his Noble Friend to produce the dispatches re-
lating to the subject. If he bad taken any step, he had
withheld the information which Parliament had a right
to require at his hands; but, until he obtained that in-
formation, he would state in his place in Parliament that
the Government entered, into an engagement which was
ratified by the Queen, that an inquiry should he made
for the purpose of procuring information; that, so far
as Parliament was informed, no such inquiry had been
made; and that, if it had been made, the information
respecting it had been withheld from Parliament, for
that up to this moment it had never been produced.
This was a very serious charge, and one which ought to
be seriously met. The conduct of the Colonial-office on
this subject, he conteasad, created great mistrust in his
mind, because it showed that speeches and motions
might be acquiesced in for' the purpose of avoiding an
inconvenient subject, and escaping those obligations
which a due consideration of the question could not fail
to impose upon them. The Noble Lord had escaped al-
together from the consideration of the case of British
America. The fact was, that his Noble Friend had done
something to obstruct and check emigration to North
America, to the:great disappointment of all who were
interested in the question of emigration, but he had done
nothing to promote it. Last year, owing to the unfor-
tunate calamity which prevailed in Ireland, many of the
emigrants who went out from that country were in a
state of disease. The colonists naturally- complained
that the emigrants who were brought over to them were
weak, infirm, and sick, and that they propagated fever in
all parts of America. He admitted the fact, and thought
it afforded the best answer to the proposal of allowing
the system of unaided, undirected emigration to con-
tinue. But he wished to avoid these evils in future,
both for the sake of the colonies and the mother country.
Well, at the suggestion of his Noble Friend, a
tax was imposed upon the emigrants for the purpose
of defraying their hospital expenses and relieving
the colonies of that burden; but he found on
comparing the tax recommended by his Noble Friend
with that imposed by the colonists, that the latter was
exactly double that of the former. The United States
were equally interested with British North America in
guarding against the burden of maintaining the sick
emigrants, and they imposed a tax too,—but the tax im-
posed by the British North American colonists upon
their fellow-subjects was actually higher than that im-
posed by the United States upon foreigners. The effect
had been to turn the tide of emigration from the British
colonial shores to the United States. In the month of
May, 1846, the total emigration was 21,334 ; in 1847,
50,328 ; in 1848, 28,281. The emigration to the United
States in May, 1846, was! 13,254 ; in -1847, 18,029 ;
in 1848, 22,672 ; whereas the emigration to British
North America, in May, 1846, was 7,760 •In 1847,
31,188 ; and in 1848 it had fallen to 3,866, in e
conse-
quence of the operation of the emigrant
Noble Lord, in a dispatch addressed to the Earl of Elgin,
had stated his conviction that an enlarged system of
emigration would greatly benefit the North Ameri-
can colonies. Why, then, did not the Noble Lord
to the
address the Earl of Elgin
with
viewfor discharging discharging the
adop-
tion of some practical scheme
discharged,
capable of being
duty which he admitted was
duty discharge? He
and. which it was, therefore,his to

must deprecate a high maximum price-for land in the
colenies. In IS4O a rate of ss. per acre realised
:324.000/, though the annual produce when the price was
fixed at 11. per stern was only 12,000/, 9,0001, 18,0001,
and 27,000/. in different years. In Goulburn the farmers
would not grow wheat for want of a market, as appeared
from a letter of the Speaker of the New South Wales
Legislature, who remarked that they must have labour
of some kind; free labour if they could get it; if' not,
then prison labour. Instead, he added, of importing
Indian corn, it would be better were the Government to
transfer the millions starving at home to a country
where Indian corn was a production of the soil, and
thereby at once relieve the mother country of a load
which was increasing annually, and pressing on her re-
sources in the most fearful manner. The results of the
laissez faire system adopted by the Noble Lord showed
its absurdity when contrasted with those of the system
which had been applied to the Cape, when, in 1822,
50,0001. were appropriated for the purposes of that colony;
the revenue and exports of the Cape had very largely in-
creased; and such, he believed, was the effect of the ori-
ginal interposition on the part of the Crown. Did the
Noble Lord think the country would be satisfied with so
meagre a measure as he had proposed, with a plan which
was certainly no statesmanlike plan? Some years ago
emigration was often characterised as a plan for clearing
away peasants from the estates of landlords in Ireland,
and paupers from parishes in England. The question
was now better understood, as one which ought to be
discussed without reference to selfish interests, but with
a view to the well• being of the people themselves, the
mother country, and the colonies, as an imperial ques-
tion. It was matter of deep regret that in the statement
of the Noble Lord there was mothing to show that he
had considered this question with reference to any prin.
ciple of systematic continuous colonization, nothing to
lead the people of England to cherish the slightest ex-
pectation that, through the agency of the Noble Lord in
the colonies, any possible relief would be afforded.
Earl GREY must crave permission to make a few re-
marks after the elaborate attack made on him by the
Noble Lord in a speech in which the Noble Lord had
shown so much ingenuity in putting the worst possible
construction on every measure ho had adopted. The
Noble Lord charged him with inconsistency in having,
when not in office, urged extensive measures of coloni-
zation very different from what he now supported. But
in the very speech he (Earl Grey) had made on Mr.
C. Buller's motion in the House of Commons, he defined
what he considered to be the real objects to be attained,
and what he considered to be the duty of the State with
respect to emigration, in nearly the same terms as he
had defined them to-night. As a positive means of
effecting a reduction of the number of the popula-
tion, he never believed emigration was of any real
value. Any attempt on the part of the State to create a
sudden and violent diminution of the numbers of the
people by artificial means would necessarily and in-
evitably be followed by a greater rapidity in the rate of
increase of the population, which would more than sup-
ply the vacuum. It was well known that after pestilence
famine, and war, the vacuum was supplied with extraor-
dinary rapidity. In some parts of the country, especi-
ally in Ireland, there was a local congestion of popula-
tion; and, from political as well as economical con
siderations, there were practical difficulties which
prevented that labour from being applied at home,
though it might be with advantage under a system of
emigration. The great difference between his Noble
Friend and himself seemed to be that his Noble Friend
thought some enormous grant, some millions of public
money, ought to be applied to emigration purposes. Ile
(Earl Grey), on the other hand, greatly doubted whether
making such grants out of the taxes, the State
undertaking to plant large numbers of people
on vacant lands in the colonies, was a more pru-
dent plan than the other plan of the State, only inter-
fering to assist and direct, so that the emigration
should be spontaneous, rather than artificial. He
had shown the progress of the Australian colonies owing
to the system which, in a subordinate situation, he had
assisted to carry into effect. The rate of 51.
per acre
for land was as strongly resisted at the time as that of
20s. per acre now. 20s. was the minimum, not the
maximum price; the average price of purely agricul-
tural land at present was not 1/., but 1/. 3s. or 1/. 4s.
Contrasting the working of the system adopted in South
Australia with that of the system adopted in Port Philip,
what was the result? The colony of West Australia
was founded some years before that of South Australia.
It was formed on the principle of granting land. From
that time to this its whole civil establishment had
been defrayed by votes of Parliament. It was unable
at this moment to pay its own expenses. The popu-
lation was under 5,000. South Australia, on the other
hand, was founded on the principle of selling land,
and sending out emigrants ; and, instead of lan-
guishing like the other, it had been for the last eight
years in a state of the most unexampled prosperity. The
Noble Earl then proceeded to vindicate the Government
from the accusation that nothing whatever had been
done consequent upon the address of last year, and as-
sured his Noble Friend that he was entirely mistaken ;
for the Government had been in constant correspond-
ence with the different colonies upon this important sub-
ject. He regretted to hear the invidious comparison
drawn by his Noble Friend between the conduct of Ca-
nada and New York in regard to emigration. The truth
was that Canada had exerted itself in a most praise-
worthy manner in the promotion of emigration, and the
papers that would be laid upon the table would fully
establish that fact. Had his Noble Friend seen those
papers he would never have drawn such a distinction.
He had always been an advocate of the assisting and
guiding emigrants by the Government, and they had
been so assisted and guided.; and if the Government
were to go further, it would undertake a task beyond its
power, and would do more injury than service to emi-
gration.

UNLAWFUL OATHS ACTS (IRELAND) CON-
TINUANCE AND AMENDMENT BILL.

Tho LORD CHANCELLOR moved the second read-
ing of this Bill, of the objects and purport of which he
gave a brief description. The object was to continue the
Acts George IV. and 2 and 3 Victoria, with certain
amendments. The law as it stood would be sufficient to
deal with illegal meetings, without further provisions, if
the real character of such meetings could be ascertained,
and if it could be discovered what was going on there;
but it was impossible, without further enactments, to as-
certain what was passing at meetings that were secret,
and unless a measure could be framed by which the ex-
tensive conspiracies carried on at clubs and the ramifi-
cations of societies now extending throughout the
country could be suppressed, it was in vain to hope
for tranquillity in Ireland.--(Hear, hear.) Their
Lordships had seen open war, to some extent, carried
on against her Majesty's forces, and this had been ac-
complished in a great degree by the working of these
different societies. The object to be obtained was, ac-
curate information by which the nature of the societies
might be discovered, and the persons guilty of illegal
practices at those meetings might be brought before
magistrates. This Bill authorised the police to enter
the places where meetings were held, and to search for
books and papers, which would show their design and
character. It had been suggested that the Bill should
provide a more immediate remedy against the person;
but this was unnecessary, for if the meeting was not
secret, and was confined to proper objects, it was legal;
but if the books and papers of a society showed that its
objects were illegal, then the common law and former
Acts armed the Government with sufficient power
against persons. So that it was not necessary to alter
the provisions of former Acts so far as related to per •
sons. The intention of this Bill was to prevent illegal
societies from being carried on and holding their meet-
ings privately. It was true that this Bill sanctioned to
some extent an invasion of what was considered the
pride and privilege of a British subject; but this was
unavoidable, and nothing short of the provisions of this
Bill would enable the Government of Ireland to prevent
the continuance of societies which had produced so
much misery.

The Earl of GLENGALL wished that a portion of
the Act of 1833 should be inserted in this Bill, which
would enable the Government to put down the associa-
tion at Burgh-quay. Ho had been looking over the Acts
2 and 3 Victoria, and 4 George I V., and it did not ap-
pear to him that this Bill would have the effect of put-
ting down clubs the members of which were not " bound
by oaths;" he did not know whether they were bound
by " other engagements." Perhaps the Noble and
Learned Lord (Lord Campbell) would afford their Lord-
ships some explanation upon this point.
Lord CAMPBELL said, the Noble Earl seemed to
have forgotten that there was such a thing as the com-
mon lsw. According to the common law of England and
Ireland, any meeting for treasonable or seditious pur-
poses was illegal, and all who attended auol, meeting,
were punishable ; but what was wanted was evidence of
the fact, and this Bill gave power .to a police officer to
enter such meeting, to search the house, and seize books
and papers, so as to ascertain what were the objects of
the society, and what the meeting was about.
Having discovered that, if the Noble Earl at the head of
the Irish Government arrested the guilty parties, he
(Lord Campbell) would indemnify him against the con-
sequences without a statute. The Noble Earl (Glen-
gall) seemed to think that nothing was illegal that was
not forbidden by statute; but persons who assembled at
treasonable or seditious meetings, though not bound by
an illegal oath, if the offence could be proved, were
amenable to the law.
Lord REDESDALE thought that there was a great
objection to au habitual succession of temporary mea-
sures for the Government of Ireland, and that there was
nothing in the 2d and 3d of Victoria which might not be
made permanent, after recent experience. However, at
that period of the session, ho did not wish to raise any
difficulty in respect to the passing of this Bill, but he
suggested that it would be expedient to make the Bill
run for a longer period than two years.
The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to
be committed on Monday.
The Earl of GLENGALL observed, that the Noble
Marquis (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had laid on the
table copies of the proclamations issued for the appre-
hension of certain persons charged with treasonable
practices in Ireland. Ho found that ono of those pro-
clamations offered a reward for the apprehension of
Michael Doheny, and he gave notice that on Monday
he should put a question to the Government with the
view of obtaining information why this Michael Do-
bony, who had been previously arrested for sedition
and sent to Nenagh Gaol, from which ho was bailed
out, was not required to appear at the assizes to stand
s
his trial, no bill being sent up to the grand jury against
as that
s
him? The consequence of this proceeding
w
neither his nor his sureties' recognizances
were e-
I treated. _

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE intimated that
the ability of the Government to give an answer to
the question on Monday must depend on information
on the subject being transmitted from Ireland by that
time.

PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
On the motion of Lord CAMPBELL, the reasons
given by the Commons for disagreeing with certain
amendments made by the Lords to the Public II(
nhti
13i11 were ordered to bo printed, The Bill was also or.