The Sun.
London, England, 1848-03-01 00:00:00

IRISH POOR-LAW.

Colonel DUNN E rose, pursuant to notice, to move
for a Select Committee to inquire into the working
and efficiency of the poor-law in Ireland. It had
been said that it was quite right that Ireland should
bear its fair proportion of taxation. He quite agreed
in that proposition, provided Ireland was treated fairly.
He was anxious that the property of Ireland should-
support the poor of that eountry. A change in the
poor-law was absolutely necessary in the present state
of distress among the poor. During the last year
no less than three millions of persons were supported
by the Government. At the present time agricultu-
ral work was in activity, and would continue so
for about two or three months, but at the
end of that period until harvest there would be no
employment for the poor population, and means
would have to be provided for their sustenance. In
some districts in Ireland the liabilities owing upon
landed property for the poor-rates, amounted to a very
considerable sum. In Listowel, out of a Po"
pulation of 78,157, there were 23,735 persons sup •
ported by the poor- law. A great evil of the
existing poor- law was, that if a landlord put his
estate in proper order he got nothing by it. A gen-
tleman who had laid out 10,0001. upon his property
had a poor rate levied upon him for three months of
7s. 6d. in the pound. While, therefore, the present
law was maintained they were creating paupers Ana
encouraging idleness. Another gentleman, re"
siding in the northern part of the country.
and who, except in one or two instances.
relieved the poor upon his estate, had to pay a howl*
rate for the district. The landlords of Ireland were
fully of opinion that the area of taxation in the
rural districts should be lessened—(Hear, hear)--.
and that funds should be provided for those dis-
tricts which were unable to support their own poor.
If the Government would grant a Committee on the
subject, he was convinced that the poor-law might be
made—instead of a tax for Ireland—a great blessing
to that country ; that was, provided practical men
were made members of that Committee. He
thought some provision ought to be made
with respect to the equalization of rates. The poor-
law for Ireland ought not to be treated as it would
be with respect to a country in a sound state,
which, he was sorry to say, Ireland was not.
The Irish people were grateful for the assistance this
country had afforded them, but he regretted that much
of the money which was voted had been spent in
many useless works. Of course, no one but Govern-
ment could be blamed for this ; remonstrance after
remonstrance was made to them, on the subject of the
lavish expenditure that was being made upon useless
public works, but these remonstrances were unheeded
by the authorities. Until a new system, therefore,
was introduced into Ireland she never would be able
to sustain her own poor, and without detaining the
House further, he would sit down, moving the motion
of which he had given notice.
Mr. O'FLAHERTY seconded the motion. He
admitted that a good deal bad been done for Ireland,
but it had been done in a bungling manner, and the
consequence was it had not produced much improve-
ment in the condition of the people. No doubt
Ireland ought to maintain her own poor, and,
if he was not mistaken, the landlords of Ire-
land were prepared to undertake that bounden duty
if an efficient law were established. The poor lei
many parts of Ireland were dying of starvation, awl
that fact alone ought to convince the House that the
prevailing system of poor-law in Ireland was a defec-..
dye one. The poor-law measure, while it was veLoily
incapable to meet the distresses of the people Was most
destructive to property, and he had, therefore, much
pleasure in seconding the motion.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND insisted that if an attack
was made upon the poor-law as administered IR
Ireland, it ought to be taken as an attack upon the
poor-law of this country.—(Hear, hear.) The two
Hon. Gentlemen who had introduced the- question.
complained that the pocr-law pressed too heavily
upon the landlords of Ireland ; but really, in matters
connected with Ireland it was exceedingly difficult
to arrive at .the truth. For instance, in the evidence
taken before Lord Devon's Commission he found the
there were 340 contradictions sworn to by witnaesee
with respect to matters of fact.—(Hear and laughter.)
But he would confine himself to the complaint of the
Hon. Gentleman—the Irish Poor-law pressed too
hard upon them. Now he found by the returns which
had been published to the House in the Blue Book,
that the annual cost of a pauper in this country was
3/. 145., while in Ireland it was 11. 135.; and, with
this fact before him, he wanted to know upon
what ground Irish Members could stand up
in that House and complain of the burden ine•
posed upon them by the poor-law P—(Hear, hear.)
The result of a meeting to consider the propriety of
establishing soup-houses was the passing of two reso-
lutions, one of which recommended emigration, the
other the erection of a drying-machine in the work-
house.—(Loud laughter.) This conduct was
similar to holding a meeting in the COUIr
try on the subject of the sanitary improvement
of the town, and to pass resolutions on the income-.
tax.--(Laughter.) In the Ballyshannon Union
letter was read, describing the horrible t'ea te,
of the paupers ; the board, however, broke up
without doing anything whatever. lii one of
the infirmary wards in the county of Mayo,
forty-five women, boys, and girls, were huddled
together in the most wretched manner. It was a
perfect farce to say that the Government could do
anything else than dismiss such boards of guardians.
The Government could not have done its duty had, •
they not dismissed them from their places.—(Hear,
hear.) The present poor-law in Ireland was
not a greater burden than they ought to bear.--
(Hear, hear.). He thought it would be acting im-
properly to give money in return for work done by
the paupers ; be had no objection to give them
food for work, but he did object to give them.
money, which was afterwards to be collected
by the priests, and sent by them up to Conciliation
Hall.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that no possible
good could result from the appointment of this Com-
mittee, and he should therefore oppose it.—(Hear.)
Sir G. GREY said, that although he was not of opinion that the poor-law was perfect in all its
parts, still he thought that no good could possibly-
arise from the appointment of this Committee ;
would require the attendance of numerous persons;
before the Committee who were now employed in the/
duties of relieving the distress of the country. Itt
appeared to him that the object of the Hon. Menitrer
in appointing this Committee was to exempt the
paupers of Ireland from being supported
by poor-rates levied on that country, but by a grant•
of money from this country.—(Cries of " No, no.")
He thought that would be the inevitable rent,. of
the inquiry ; he could not see what other object the
Hon. Gentleman had in view in appointing the Cc en-
mittee. The object of the Hon. Member's root don
was that the Government should supply fun4s to
those districts which were unable to sup port
there own poor. It was his opinion that
the debts owing by several unions In
Ireland was entirely attributable to local mism image
ment ; but the majority of unions were as well mi triaged
as those in England, and had carried out the po
more successfully than had been estimated by G foieern-
ment. With regard to the proposed glinulO
_212"
tion of the area of taxation, he bad stew'
last year, and he was ready to aver it ag sin, that
some few of the unions of Ireland were too large but
when the poor-law was enacted, the electoral dio''
sions were arranged on the best possible smell-
lle concluded by opposing the motion of the Bog-
Member.

Mr. A. STAFFORD concurred with the Hon.-
Member for Portarlington in that which was the ani-
mus of his speech that the property of Ireland should
be made to support the poverty of that country.
That was the object for which the present motion
was made. He, however, contended that by adopting*
tine electoral division as the area of taxation, the
landlords who did their duty, improved their pro-
perty, and employed their tenants, were made to bear
the burden of supporting the destitution occasioned
by the neglect of others. He objected to reducing
the unions at the same time with the electoral diya-
sions, because a reduction in the unions would in-
volve an expenditure for new workhouses which
Ireland could not pay, and which must fall on thl •
country. All he wished was that Government 401114

carry out the same principle in the administration of
wh'eh they did in .he n'ltninistr:".zion of jus
tice, and as they imposed the penalty for crime on
the locality in which it was committed, so they
should make the locality in wl,ich destitution ex;sted
bear the expense.—(Hear.)
Mr. R. M. FOX (Longford) said the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) was mistaken as to the
object of the Bill of which he had given notice. It
was not to provide for the support of the poor of Ire-
land by a town•land rating, but of the able-bodied
poor only. The infirm poor he proposed to provide
for by a union rating. He intended to have pro-
P°sed the levying of a tax upon all property other
than landed, in order to create a fund to be placed in
the hands of the Poor-law Commissioners, as a rate
in aid of that to be raised, where the other rate
exceeded a certain amount ; but as he saw no likeli •
hood of his being able to carry out his views upon
the subject, he should not bring forward his Bill,
h°Ping, however, that the Committee now moved for
Would be granted.
Colonel CONOLLY supported the motion.
An Hos. MEMBER, who said he represented a place
in the west of Ireland, declared that he was not
individually opposed to a poor law in Ireland, neither
was the constituency which he represented ; but both
desired to see a better regulated system established—
(Rear, hear)—by which they would have more of
Lai* management of their own affairs, in their own
hands, and he hoped, therefore, that the Government
would yield to the appeal of the Hon. Member for
Portarlington.
,M-r- FRENCH denied, as was alleged by the Hon.
.°J'ember for Surrey, that Ireland was taxed for the
Poor at the same rate only as this country. It was,
On the contrary, much more heavily taxed ; for
while Ireland was rated for the poor to the extent of
2000,0001., on a rental of 13,000,0001., England was
only taxed to the extent of 5,000,0001. on a rental of
56,000,000/.—(llear, hear.) Such was the growing
Poverty of Ireland that the poor-law tax would soon
be double its present amount Even at present it
Was consuming the capital of the middle classes,
While to the poor it proved a complete mockery. He
had ascertained that the mortality amongst the
149,000 poor in the workhouses of that country
equalled that r,f the metropolis of England, namely,
1,000 per week.
Mr. HIJIIE hoped the Government would not
refuse an opportunity to the Irish Members of proving
their ease ; and, as some of them laudably observed,
of preventing their country from being any longer a
burden to this. The Government would be acting
against their own principles if they refused the Com-
mittee now moved for.
Capt. JONES opposed the appointment of a Com •
raittee, as likely to interfere injuriously with the
°Peration of the law. The Hon. Member for Ros-

common, who supported the motion, was opposed to
the law altogether, and it was evidently with the view
of opposing it that he asked for a Committee.
Mr. FAGAN considered inquiry to be absolutely
necessary respecting the mode of administering relief,
the transmission of paupers from England, the charge
upon the occupier, which he considered to be too
much, and upon several other mincr matters. He,
therefore, cordially supported the motion, the neces-
SitY for which was well borne out by the testimony
afforded by all the Hon. Members who had spoken
from the sister kingdom.
Sir J. WALSH joined in entreating the Govern-
ment to consent to the appointment of a Com-
mittee on this most important subject. -
Mr. S. CRAWFORD contended that the returns
Made to Parliament showed that an inquiry was im-
Peratively necessary. The evils of the present system
demanded that such should be the case, and that some

intermediate course should at least be adopted. Look-

tll' to the whole operation of the law, and its results,
he cordially joined in the motion for the appointment
of a Committee of Inquiry.
Major BLACKALL also supported the motion,
observing that the time bad arrived when inquiry
was not only fitting, but absolutely necessary. In
Come unions actually one-half of the population
Were receiving relief; and a greater number even
than the number of those rated. By reducing the
area of taxation it would become the interest of
!very one to give all the employment he could
In order tc keep down the rates in his own district.
It was an important question also, whether in
Country like Ireland, where the whole burden
of taxation fell upon the land, it would not be
well to render other species of property liable
to the poor-rate.—(Hear, hear.) This was an addi-
tional reason for granting the Committee asked for.
The Hon. Member for Surrey, while opposing its
appointment, had adduced the strongest reasons in
support of the motion, such as the charges that had
been made against the guardians of different unions
and other matters. The Right Hon. the Secretary
of State had opposed the Committee, because its
object was not defined in the motion ; but, surely,
this was nothing unusual when a Committee was
moved for.

Sir GEORGE GREY What I said was that
no definite subject of inquiry was proposed for the
Committee.
Major BLACKALL thought that sufficient
round had been laid for the appointment of the
committee. As the law at present stood, if one
electoral division in a union was unable to pay up
its arrears, the guardians might go on levying new
rates on the other divisions which could pay ; and
surely nothing could he conceived more calculated
to generate carelessness in the expenditure.
Mr. AGLIONBY implored Ministers to consent
to the appointment of this Committee. Their oppo-
sition to it could only rest on information received
from officials in Ireland; and on that ground it was
important that other evidence should be heard.
An HON. MEMBER, whom we did not recognise,
said that feeling the inconvenience which must arise
Fora withdrawing a number of officers from Ireland,
10 give evidence before the Committee, he must op.
POSO its appointment.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the law was
imperative as to the appointment of relieving officers
by the Commissioners; and yet this had been made
a serious ground of complaint by tbellon. and Gal-
lant Member for Donegal (Col. Conolly). It was
also imperative on relieving officers to give relief in
sudden and urgent cases ' • and if this or any other of
the requirements of the law were not complied with,
the Commissioners would naturally be blamed for
trot compelling the guardians to do their duty. The
lion. and Gallant mover (Colonel Dunne) had laid
Much stress on the state of things in the union of
Pallyshannon ; but this, it should be known, had
been one of the most difficult unions in Ireland to
manage. In the Donegal union, the salaries proposed
by the guardians for schoolmaster, porter, and other
°flieers, had been so ridiculously small-81. a year for
the schoolmaster, and 61. for the porter—(Hear,
hear)--that the Commissioners were compelled to in-
terfere, otherwise it would be impossible to obtain
Proper officers. The Commissioners had been blamed
for dismissing certain hoards of guardians. Let the
Rouse read the papers on this subject, and they would
be satisfied that the Commissioners had endeavoured
to perform their duty in the best possible manner. He
had always thought that the Irish poor-law would
require considerable modification before it was made
to work unexceptionably ; but as yet it was quite pre-
mature to propose any alteration—for the law had
not been fully enforced. A committee of in-
tiniry at the present moment would be absolutely
nugatory; for when the law was brought into full
operation, a further and fuller inquiry might become
necessary. The area of taxation was not unalter-
ably fixed; it might become tie duty of the Com-
missioners or the Legislature materially to reduce
it, but not certainly to the extent of the townland
only. It was most important that the House should
take care, in stimulating employment, not to decrease
the stimulus to labour, nor to relieve the large landed
Proprietors from the duty of supporting the poor.—
(hear, hear.) Let them beware of holding out in-
ducements to clearances.—(Hear, hear.) On the
estates of many proprietors there was not a single
pauper, those estates being tilled and cultivated by
labourers from contiguous districts : and surely it
was not intended to relieve such landowners from
the support of the poor altogether.—(NO, no.) But
Such would be the effect if each townland were
made responsible for tbe support of its own poor.
The reduction of the area of taxation was a most
important and difficult question, and would de-
mand the most careful consideration, The Corn-
Mistioners had now the power to divide and subdi-
vide unions ; but such changes could not be effected
Without shifting the burden of pauperism from one
set of ratepayers to another, and motives were in
Consequence imputed. This had taken place in the
Only case in which a division had hitherto been made,
that of Dromore West, which certainly appeared as
clear a case as possible for a division. Agreeing in
Much that the Hon. and Gallant Member (Colonel
Dunne) had urged, he thought the appointment of a
Committee of inquiry at present would be most ill
timed. It was not known what the amount of rate
or of out-door relief was likely to be. On many
other points they were equally in ignorance. The
basis of a well-considered poor law was most essen-
tial for the superstructure of the welfare of Ireland;
and it behoved the House to be most careful lest
they should take a wrong step in the matter by dis-
turbing the existing law before they were in posses-
Sion of sufficient information as to how it had worked
and how it was likely to operate.—(Heat, hear.)
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN said the appointment of. the
ecßumittee was unanimously desired by Irish Members,
and if it was denied by an English majority, it would
convince the Irish people more strongly of the neces-
sity of having a Parliament to manage their own af-
fairs. He thought it important so to arrange the
"lons that landed proprietors might have an induce-
ment rather to employ the poor than to pay increased
rates ; and this would be attained by decreasing the
size of the unions. This was a fit subject for inquiry
Al was also the rating of personal property, which had