The Sun.
London, England, 1846-01-27 00:00:00

*P"r)NDON, TI7II,SI)AY ..EV'ENING, JANUA R I 27 teis
TEE SOK L, - -

, T (line and money. The instant that Cenunittees were to be placed on it. They ought. to propose
• 1 !ormed, counsel were en s:sloe-EA and the saMe kind of . quired into by a Select Committee. The quest
iseeelse- -:here in gle b— c;:esess I that hurl se see, 1,,,,e, great to be }.laced before a Committee composed Ut
,„„ small number of the Members of that House. With rege
told before other Committects of the Jleusc.
or the 'Members ef the Cuinesittece wee thus werio:tiel),ttis.rid to the advance of monies to foreign powers for the construe-
tien of works on the Continent Parliament had not ioter-
great expense sntetiled on the prerns tere of the .i!ills. ' feted, but bad alloe ed the loans to be granted. It might,
'i lest &site, ceunsel went to another Committee Just however, be necessary for the interests of the country, that
foenird, and wasted its titre in tee same rearmer he lirel some interference should be made with regard to these loans.
done on the previous one So. which he had been engneede lie really thought that the case ought to be placed before the
' Thi 1 great waste of time, arid these l mspeeches ot House. If the 11;glit Hfl
on. Gentleman thought it was eels-
counsel, hail led hies to support the institution or a per- sary that there should be a Select Committee onthis question,
m i a.nent body to sit and examine into railway Bills—a he would probably state his plan to them
' bode that would exert an Mile:slice so as to put an would then make a report to the House, whichiie Thew committee
this o
veryuldth imenbe_
end to this waste of time and money. In that
better able to form au opinion with respect
case lie n'euld be bound there would be ne trifling
portent question.
Mr. H. HINDE said he looked upon the business of the
with t.itne. There was another topic which he would Cominitfee as simply to receive and collect information, elect
mention. He had heard it said that considering that all report it to the Home. He should not have addressed the
these inquiries involved large considerations of capital* House had it not been for the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet
and that the Members of that House were largely ins at the head of the Government. lie confessed, that if that
terested in the amount of property disposed of, they speech was understood out of doors by the publ as he (Mr.
should do away with all suseicion by having H. Hinds) understood it, it would create. greati alarm. He
an independent tribunal. He had merely men- understoodfrdtahea,t, nnfottll,iengralviawsatyo
ibe
3illsdotritlei wthiethytiet
we
sv view of
thatof ctr,rely.-
timed this, and would not say more on the g
mittee had been given. They were to give an opinion that one
tepic. The plan that he proposed would obviate
class of railways was entitled to receive the favour of the House,
I his difficulty. The House would recollect that last Fes -
while another class of railways ought not to receive that favour-
sion these inquirif s were to sonic extent in the bands of able consideration. Now, if the Right Hon. Gentleman had
the Board of 'Trade, and every ono objected to proposed any thing of this kind at the end of the last session of
the decisions of that Bomd, but the rea,:on of Parliament, the objection he (,lh. H. Hinde) had to it would
that in his opinion was, that that Board had notnot have been so great. The projectors of Railways would
. sufficient power. They had only the power of report- then have hut notice cf the intentions of Government, and would
lug on a third or a fourth part of the question, , have acted already. Rut now, when these projectors bad corn-
not upon the whole. They only collected engineering plied with the standing orders imposed upon them last session,
evidence, and raported on it to the Houses but they did had made their surveys, had gone to great expense in engine-r-
-not examine oddence affecting individuals. They left ing matters, and had paid up their deposits, he thought it was
out three-fourths of the evidence, which it was necessary not treating them as they ought to be treated by being sub-
jected to the course recommended by the Right Honourable
to hear properly to snake a report to the House, and
Baronet. Those standing faders having been complied with,
tools only one-fourth. The fault was not that they gave Parliament ought to be prepared to hear evidence in support
the Board of Trade too much power, but because they of each scheme—they ought not to be disposed of without each
gave it too little.—(lfear, hear.) This was his individual project having had the case submitted to a corope-
great objection to that Board, merely giving it tent tribunal.—( Hear, hear.) He conceived it would occasion
power to report upon one portion of the case. great inconvenience if railway Bills were to be treated in the
He thought that the plan now followed was the very manner recommended. But, in objecting to this course, he
worst that could possibly have been devised, and though would say that in submitting these schemes to Parliamen-
tary Committees, they, the Members of such Com-
he could not in any way impugn the honesty of the
mittees, should evince the greatest strictness in the
rnotises of those by whom the duties of those Conimitties
have been discharged, yet he felt that the mode in which
reception of ' evidence—not to be merely satisfied with
witnesses showing a large amount of traffic, but that
this business {vas managed was a disgrace to Parlia- the schemes submitted in all respects were necessary
meet and the empire. He did conceive, therefore, and desirable. In dealing in detail with so large a number of
that by the appointment of such a body of men schemes he confessed there was
.great difficulty; still, if the
as he had just suggested, there would be a large amount standing order of Committees manifested sufficient strictness,
of expense saved, and the system would work in- and the Parliamentary Committees were careful and rigid in ,
finitely better than any private Committee of that their reception of evidence, theebusinesa in the ordinary way,
House could possibly do. If' the consideration of as acted upon last session, would be easily disposed of. The
the expense were to be taken into account, m ber of railways before the Standing Orders Committee
they might follow the example set them by several of
wouldnumber
not greatly exceed that of last session ; but if it did, if
the other judicial institutions of tee country, and
they went to work at the commencement of the session, and
throw the cost of the roceedin son the promoters of
not delay it as they had done last year, they would get through
P g it in good time. Last year the session ; was very much ad-
the sever I Bills which were to be submitted to the Le- vanced before the Committees commenced to sit, and then,
gislature.—(Hear, hear.) while many Members sat a long time on certain Committees,
Colonel SIBTIIORP felt a little surprise that sg other Members never sat at all; and he was of opinion many
humble an individual as himself' should have been snore Committees might have been formed so as to facilitate
thought worthy of any particular notice on the present the business. There was another point of the Right
occasion. lie was aware, however, that it was well lionostrable Gentleman's speech to which he would refer—
known that he had a great distaste to what wore called that the restricting of the number of projects would he
cinnmissienerships, and he felt this distaste b: cause he roost rather than an evil. He (Mr. H. Hinde) was of opt-
4:lion, that throwing difficulties such as those named in the way
had invariably foniel, that these same commissiehrilere-
. of investigating the various railway schemes submitted to Par-
ships generally drew enormous sums from the pu 1 •
liament would be a great evil. If the projectors of railways,
and were almost invariably neither more nor less time
and those who subscribed to them, had difficulties thrown in
jobs, proposed though they might be by both sides 0, • heir way in the expediting these schemes, it would cause the
the House. Now he had greater objection to this cum- capital that would be expended in them to go out of the country.
mission, because it was said to be for the good of what It would surely be a great evil that a large sum which was pro-
were called these important schemes, though, in his posed to be expended on railways should he sent abroad; and
opinion they were anything but important schemes. that such would be the evident result, if the Right Hon. Be-
lie was the more convinced of the truth of this impres- tenet's counsel in the construction of the Committee wastaker,
sidn, because he saw that the Hon. and Gallant Member he was firmly persuaded. He should rather that some person
—(Laughter)--the Hone and Learned Member he sf greater experience than himself had taken up the view of the
believed he ought to call him—had so made his pro-
question; but in the sentiments he had expressed he was sure
poSition, that these commissioners, however assidu•
he but echoed the opinions that were prevalent out of doors. •
Mr. P. M. STEWART wished to call the attention of the
ously and earnestly they performed their duty, could not Right Hon. Gentleman at the bead of her Majesty's Government
receive a single sixpence of their pay until the title to -o the experience that had been acquired by the application
it haul been certified by another commission, appointeu -sf the system of Committees last session. He (Mr. Stewart)
to Supervise their conduct. Ile had, therefore, the les quite agreed that some interference was necessary in their
to i object to the Honourtble Gentleman sug • mode of conducting the business so as to facilitate its transac-
geeted by the Right Honourable Baronet tion, but ha would remind them, thut in devising measures
Ho stood there as the representative of an ' impOr- for the dispatch of business,they
drance to Bills presented to that House on the faith of the
public duty, and he demanded, on behalf of the '
tent commercial . city, to discharge iirpartially D
tending orders of last session. Last year it was the '2oth or
public of England, that all the members of the railway
21st of April before a single railway Committee sat, and then,
from the number of Bills that were to be investigated, with all
Committees should not be interested, either directly of
"heir dispatch they could not get through the business; but
indirectly, in any of the schemes that might come before
now, he was persuaded, whatever increase of business there
them. He did not wish to speak disrespectfully of any Hon. was beyond that of last year, if they applied themselves to it,
Member, but in his opinion it mould be little better than dis- they would get through with it in much better time than they
honesty for an Hon. Member to sit upon a Committee ap- did thern He said this in order that. the Right lion.
pointed to consider the merits of two schemes, in one of which . Baronet's Committee might not report to the House from
he was immediately interested. Many of the projects, although time to time, and thus delay the commencement of the
their promoters said they brought them forward for the benefit business ; and with the hope that if the Government
of the public, were nothing but gambling schemes, and in the
sad any plans to submit to the Committee they would do so at
last session of Parliament, while the Railway Clauses Con-
once, that they might decide and report so as they, who were
soldiation Bill was under consideration, he did his best to make interested in railway Bills, would know what course was to be
the; promoters of these schemes more responsible than taken. It was strange, that if a new mode of carrying forward
they were for some of their acts and deeds.—(Cheers.) the private business was necessary, that some course had no':
He felt it his duty to make these observations, but he sincerely been taken last year, so as to meet the case fully. Nor must
hoped that no Member in the House would consider that he they expect now that any plan agreed on was merely to apply
was connected either directly, or indirectly, with any railway to this year, and that then the railway business of the country
scheme. For his own part he did not wish to be connected would be at an end. They were much mistaken, if they
with any railway project.—( Laughter.) He would rather put thought that 600 Bills would exhaust all the railway business
his hand into the fire in fact than purchase a railway share.— of the country, and that any plan agreed to this session, would
(Continued laughter.) not be required hereafter. Look at the state of the country ?
Mr. GEORGE HUDSON said he considered it his duty to Railroads were supplanting turnpikes everywhere. There
matte a few observations, in consequence of the remarks that were twenty thousand miles of turnpike-road in England
had, fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel). He and Wales, and he was persuaded that wherever there was
would suggest to the light Hon. Baronet, that the schemes a turnpike, a railroad would be constructed in i's stead.
whibh should corm 13f-fore the House, should pass through a F:om this they might expect every session a large amount of
certain ordeal, viz., that all the deposits should be paid in railway business, and they should devise some permanent
prior to their being enabled to pass through the standing orders.
:node of disposing of this busines3s so calculated to increase
( Hear, hear.) If it were not so, the committee might commend the national power, and to develope the national wealth. The
many schemes, the promoters of which were not in a competent Right Hon. Baronet in the course of his observations, had ex-
position to carry them out.—.( Hear, hear.) He was pressed an opinion as to the amount of wealth it was expedient
not alarmed, like the Right Honourable Baronet, as to the annually to expend on railways, and he had set it down at
amount of money which might be required in the excels- 20,000,0001. He (Mr. Stewart) considered this estimate not
time' of the contemplated lines of railway ; because that enough. He was of opinion that from the fast increasing power
moley was not going out of the country.—( Hear.) of the nation, and its continuals; growing wealth, it was in
One-fifth nearly of the money expended in the making of the A position to extend at least 50,000,000/. annually. The
proposed lines would go into the pockets of the landowners, Right Hon. Baronet had admitted that it would be much
arid:it was likely that they would invest that money in the rail- better that that capital was invested in the heart and bowels of
wags which passed through their districts; they would, most their own country than expended in foreign schemes.--( Hear,
probably, invest it in mortgages to the companies. The iron- hear.) He had great doubts if any new plan they
mongers, end other parties concerned in the making of mate- could lay down would at all facilitate the business. it
rialafor the lines, would also receive another large portion of the Committee proposed to be appointed was to linger
the money exeerded in railways.—( Hear, hear.) The Right over its business, and in the present time nothing was done to
Hori. Baronet had spoken of the distress in Ireland, but surely forward the Bills before the House, great evil would result,
the Making of new railways would be the very best thing to and it would be March or April before anything was done. He
allev,iate that distress, for the superabundance of labourers in approved of the appointment of the Committee, but he doubted
the ;country would be thereby afforded employment. The that the Committee, like that of last year, would materially
Right Hon. Baronet said that the amount of money to be ex- interfere with the commencement of business, and, like the
pended in railways should be limited—but was it possible to do exertions of the Board of Trade, add nothing to its proper exe-
so? 'He should imagine the case of a line proposed to pass cation. He entreated the Right Hon. Baronet to urge for-
through the West Riding of Yorkshire, in which, ce ward the dispatch of business, and facilitate by every mean, in
course, there was great necessity for easy means his power those railway Bills for which petitions had been pre-
of transit through the different parts of that district.
sented to that House.
Why, to deny the right of these persons to make their
Mr. PLUMPTRE said his object in rising was to take no-
railvyay would be an immense hardship. It seemed to give rice of the proceedings which characterised the depositing of
the Committee a power which he did not quite understand. the railway plans at the Board of Trade. It happenea that
He might be told that it would only be a report of a Corn- the 30th of November was on a Sunday, and on that day a
mittee; however, though not a proficient in Parliamentary
general deposit of the plans had taken place. If it was in the
business, he had learned sufficient to ktmw that a report of a
power of the Board of Trade to have put off the depositions of
Committee gives a weight with which it is impossible to con- the plans to the following day, they ought to have done so ; and
tend. Were these lines of national importance ? Were they if they had not, it would be satisfactory for the public to know
laid out in such a manner as to afford abundance ?If they were that great complaints have been made.
he did not doubt but money and means would be found in Mr. RICARDO regretted very much that the Right Hon.
abundance to carry them out, provided always that the money Gentleman had not answered the objections of the Noble Lord
was not called out of the country for other objects, pro- (Lord J. Russell) to the proposed measure. It was hard that
aided it was not called out on South Ameriaan Bonds, or a number of persons interested in railway Bills, who had corn-
to buy foreign corn—(Loud cheering . from the Ministerial plied with all the conditions of last session, who had fully met
benches.) He did not wonder there was some alarm the provisions of the standing orders, should be placed in the
that there would be a deficiency of money when measures like same position as those who had not. The Right Hon. Baronet
that he alluded to were proposed. And it behoved them, it
should have made known the plan at the close of last session,
they were carried out, to button up their pockets until they and then he (Mr. Ricardo) having had that information, should
should see bow they would turn out. He was quite certain not have employed, in those companies with which he was con-
that if the House applied itself to the consideration of those nected, engineers at great expense ; he would have said, never
lines with which it was competent to deal, they would be able mind tunnels nor viaducts, but merely draw the line straight—
to transact the whole business which would be brought before leaving out of calculation hills and valleys, and all estimate of
it. There might be defects, it is true, in some of their de- expense or capabilities of the line. The Right Hon. Baronet
visions. He, himself, might have been very frequently grieved said he had got a large map of the various railways projected
at many of them—( Hear, hear)—but he, always, on calm re- which would be submitted, and if they appointed
fleetion, felt that those decisions were honest, and always felt
the utmost respect for them, and he ever was prepared to Wets Committee they (the Commissioners who had fully
by them. Let them not. take any measures until they knew complied with the standing orders) would only stand
.
whether the parties were in a condition to proceed with theit a chance of beine picked out of the snap with those compa-
nies that had not 'been able to comply. The consequence
Bills, for it was notorious that many of these schemes were de-
fective, and not in a condition to occupy the time of the House. would be, that this year they would not be able to go forward
If they did this he felt quite certain that they would get through with these. Bills, and next year they would be placed in the
the business with satisfaction to the public, and with honour to same position as the companies that this year had neither de-
themselves. posited plans or made deposits.—( Hear, hear.) He considered
Mr. FOX MAULE congratulated the House on having se- this unfair, and the whole measure a clumsy contrivance to
cured the services of so valuable a Member as the Gentleman
meet the difficulty. regretted thaththise Right Hon.
eHtorna. Bearone
u
should, at theelentUetio
who had just sat down. He thought the Committee proposed he had come down to the le propose e
andtold P-thlaenm, what tothdor. thalitt
rail- would have saved the paying engineers for working night and
one of the most important that was ever appointed in that
House. He also considered that all districts wnhtehree
Cere. day, and going to other great expenses, in order to comply with
the standing orders. He hoped the Right Hon.
en. Baronet
ways were to be made should be fairly represented i
mittee, for he had to complain that, with former Committeeswould reconsider the matter, and tell them what he meant to
who had been appointed to decide upon railways, there was no., recommend to the Committee, in order that the country might
a fair representation. Scotland had not got its fair proportion know what they were to expect.—( Hear, hear.)
of representation. The only Member representing a large 'I he Earl of LINCOLN said that it appeared that the
constituency who was .on those railways was the Honourable Gentleman the Member for Nottingham, supposed
Honourable Member for Dumfries.--( Hear, hear.) With that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government
reference to the other points, viz., as to the tocertainine
matters of fact connected with the different projected lines simply perform those duties which
had bees performed by the
He agreed with the Hots. 111 ember for Devonport, that a re- • that they should take
intended that the Committee which he had proposed should
Board of Trade during the last year, vie. . .
cord of them might be made up by persons authorised by bothand recommend
Houses of Parliament, or by any other body appointed for that for the sits-
to the House such lines as they deemed the best ,
into consideration the various competing lines, .
purpose; and he considered that such a tribunal would be tricts of coutitry proposed to be passed through. But the in-
much preferable to the system formerly adopted. He con- tentions were not such as had been assumed by the Right Hon.
sidered that the decisions would be more correct, as they Gentleman. The proceedings of last year would be no guide
would be obtained with more care, and a heavy portion of the whatever with regard to the selection of lines ; the Committee
business which passed in former sessions on Committees of that would show to the House the lines which had already been cona-
House would be discharged with more ease to all the parties pleted, the lines which had been sanctioned by Parliament,
concerned, and with greater advantage to the public at large. the lines not yet completed, and those which were contemplated
With those observations, then, and trusting that the Corn- during the present year. The intentions of the Right Hon.
mittee would be framed in such a manneeas would ensure the Baronet in proposing the Select Committee, were to show at
fullest confidence, he would not enter. his pretest against the once the exact state of railway matters, and it was anticipated
question ; but it would be too late to object when the names that the course proposed would give satisfaction to all persons
should be called, as that would be making what alight appear connected with railway schemes. The Committee, it was
invidious distinctions. also proposed, should consider what amount of money it was
Mr. CHARLES RUSSELL said he did not participate considered advisable to suffer to be expended in the formation
in the apprehension that the mode of selecting the Committee of railways. He thought that it would be unfair in any way
would be regarded with distrust or dissatisfaction, or that the to prejudice their decision by any remarks upon that
mode of investigation would• create the same feelings. • This head. It was thought right that there should be some reduc-
Committee, if he understood it, was not intended to invosti- tion upon the capital to be expended during the present year
gate the merits of any line, but to regulate the manlier in in the making of railways. It was said by his Noble Friend
which a general principle could be applied to the mode of the Member for the C.ty of London, that it would be most de-
conducting those investigations—( Hear, hear)--and he had no sirable that the Government should express some decided opi-
doubt but that this duty would be discharged with justice to all pion as to what. the amount of capital should be. He was sure
parties, and satisfaction to the public.—(Hear, hear.) Con. that his Noble Friend would give the Government the credit
nected as he was with railways, it would not be for hi 1110 sug- of having given this subject, as well as all other subjects which
gest what the principle ought to be; but this he would say, must come under discussion, their most serious consideration.
that if any preference were to be given to any, he would hops, He believed that many Members of the House were of opinion
that that preference would be given to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) that some limitation should be placed upon the expenditure of
Believing, as he did, that the evils of that country were hot the surplus capital of the country. The Hon. Gendeman who
owing to religious or political differences, but entirely from had last addressed the House had stated that 50,000,000/., and
want of employment for the poor people of that country.—
even a much larger sum than that, should be sanctioned by
( Hear, hear.) He did think it was time that they should
surplus wealth into that Parliament for the purposes of new railways. That point
take means for pouring some of their
would, of course, be a very proper subject for the consideration
country.—( Hear, hear.) of the Committee proposed to be appointed, but he thought
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he bad a very important that the Hon. Gentleman ought to consider the large increase
in the demand of mone for the other great interests and in-
question to remark upon. There were two Members for whorn
the House entertained very great respect, and who entirely stitutions of the country—( Hear, hear)—and it could net,
differed in their opinion on that question. The Hon. Member therefore, be expected that the Government would be inclined
for Sunderland said, that if a railway communication between to sanction the expenditure of the large sum proposed
two towns were required, and if all the landholders on the line
,
for the formation of railways. With respect to what had
were ready with their assent, and parties were ready to ad - fallen from certain Hon. Members concerning the advisabilit
Vance money for the project—supposing the whole to be in of requiring the payment of deposits before Railway Billsy
that state of advancement—yet Parliament had the power of were allowed to pass through the Standing Orderr. There
placing its veto on that project, and hindering its construe- were various reasons why that course should not be adopted.
tion. The Hon. Member for Reading said that the exercise It would be impossible for the proposed Committee to ascer-
ttaM the number of Bills which it would be advisable for the
of that power would cause great derangement in the money
market and in the labour market, and very great evils would Legislature to pass into laws. The subject of payment of de-
follow in the event of Parliament stopping such projected lines, posits was, in his opinion, one which might very properly be
and that very great evils would also follow the attempt to con- left to the consideration of the Select Committee. He could,
struct too many railroads. He ( Lord John Russell) owned however, assure the Noble Lord, and all ;those who had spoken
that the question assumed a grave and important character, and in the course of the debate, that it was not the intention of
Exchequer, ought not immediately to be referred to a Committee. The Government to confide the whole of this important matter to
Frst Lord of the 'Treasury, or the Chancellor. of the the decision of the proposed Committee. It was the deter-
quer, ought to come to the House,, and state • • G tt to give the subject its most . ,
what public inconvenience would, in their opinion, arise from urination of tale Government i
at-
-he construction of sok many railroads, and what limits ought tentive consideration.—( Hear, hear. ) . . . . .. .

intillheagtie!nreeesr,lioel
pfiri to be in- Mr. LABOUCIIERE said that he did not intend troubrng
•-oti es's§ to the Horse wi'Ar many observations.
very hear from the speech of He' was astonished to
"hien:etc:l:i naa:Coeuont Committee. They
rd., that it was the in-
the- power of
sigrr ‘!-. important neon the decision of
were about to con-
is important matter to
question, viz, what shall b.? the maximum
ailowfd
‘lcodritstu:l;tiz:nn
of lcca hear
sure to
would
uquestion
obviouslythan
accotuilnd
hear.) A grfUra.cietrl;e"llmoui.—( Hear, hear.) To propose any
noct,
mtitcatioen batt.
cuid oirp, essaylq which
tthat
the t
he Housec o
uhras de
direct opposition to
The question, if it were
and carefully debated upon
invariably adhered to.
proposed was a most unt'l" one. ,
House.—(Heal,) lie would venture to say
that no benefit would arise from the proposed Counit!ee.
boy b tel de
"wi dheol ds
e '1151.1T
If such a Committee should be appointed, he considered it to
be the duty of those who composed it 'at once to say that it
was not a proper subject for them to entertain. He had
oped that the Government would have come before the House
wi tie some matured plan on this subject, and he was not with:.
out hopes that the most desirable plans might be devised on
this 11;w1. He thought that, with the experience of the last
session t'elbre them, they might take steps which would greatly
facilitate the progress of railway legislation during the present
session. Tile blouse of Commons, in his opinion, was quite
right in appointing a railway Committee during the last year,
but the subject which it had been proposed to refer to their
decision in the present instance was quite a different thing.—
( Hear, hear.) The present question was of an entirely dif-
ferent character, and he therefore much regretted to hear the
proposal of the Government just made with respect to railway
legislation during the present session.—(Hear, hear.) He
would only make one other remark. He agreed with the Hon.
Gentleman who had just spoken, that the experience of
last session had rendered it incumbent upon the
House to devise some scheme that would facilitate the pro.
gress of railway business. He agreed with him that the pub-
lic had every right to complain of the extraordinary delay of
railway business during the last session. His Hon. Friend
had stated that he thought that out of doors there was an im-
pression that the tribunals that had been appointed during the
last session for the transaction of railway business were not
altogether free from suspicion.—( Hear, hear.) For his own
part, he could only say (having had experience in those tribu-
nals;, that he was not aware of any other tribunal in existence
that had discharged its duties so honorably, and with so much
deliberation.— (Hear, hear.) No blemish should, therefore,
be east upon their proceedings either in or out of doors.. He
had thought it right to say thus much upon this subject, for
he should be sorry if that House were charged with perform-
ing the business brought before them in a dishonourabe man-
ner ;
.but much snore should he regret were they justly so
charged. He could, however, say that the tribunals referred
to were above all suspicion.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. JOHN COLLETT thought that the House had a
perfect right to ask her Majesty's Government what were the
subjects which they proposed to submit to the Select Com-
mittee. He slid not mean to say that they should enter into
every minute detail. As a hanker, he could say, that unless
the Government clearly stated their course with regard to rail-
way legislation during the present session, the banking interest
would be materially damaged. He was still of opinion that the
public would very much prefer a Commission appointed by this
House. Committees had been appointed for all other matters,
and why not on this ?
Mr. F. FRENCH said he had no objection to the Com-
mittee. He was much satisfied with the remarks which had
fallen from the Right lion. Baronet. He did not think that
the House need fear that their labours would be much increased
during the session by the number of railway Bills which would
come before it. He was su. e that out of the eight
hundred and odd railways, the plans of which had
been deposited, 100 would not pass through the ordeal of the
standing orders, and consequently would not come before the
House.

Colonel ANSON was opposed to the appointment of the
Select Committee. If they were to hear evidence, &c., on the
different railway bills, their labours would not terminate during
the present session. He would suggest that the Committee pro-
posed should have the classification and terouping of the rail-
way bills, but he should decidedly oppose its appointment if it
were proposed that the Committee should decide upon the im-
portant question that had been alluded to.—( Hear, hear.) He
hoped that the Government would not persist in the present
motion, for he was decidedly of opinion that the Committee t
proposed would not be able to carry out the powers to be vested p
in them. He was enabled to say this from the intimate 'ei
knowledge which he possessed on railway subjects.
Mr. JAMES PARKER believed that when the public had r
read the proceedings of the House that evening, they would come 7
to the same conclusion to which he had arrived, viz., that a
Select Committee should be appointed in the first instance.—
( Hear, hear.) That Committee would be the means of saving d,
a considerable sum of money to parties interested in Railway sr
Bills ; the expenditure consequent upon the delays of the Board of
of Trade in the months of May, June, July, and August, of tl
last year, was immense.— ( Hear, hear.) And, after all, the tl
parties had to go home—in many instances without the slightest d
benefit—without any notice whatever whether they should ever r
have to attend before the Board again. He, upon these and
other grounds, trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet at the f
head of the Government would have the fortitude to deal with
this matter with resolution and determination. The scheme
contemplated was a most comprehensive one, and he had no
doubt that it would give much satisfaction to the country ge-
nerally..—( Hear, hear.) He denied that the proposition was
an unusual one ; it was no anomalous case.—( Hear, hear.)
.The railway world, he had no doubt, would give the proposi-
tion their best support.—( Hear, hear.) He trusted that the
proceedings of this Committee, whatever they might be, would
be rapid. What they must do they must do quickly. He be..
lieved that a great deal of time was last year west, d in perusing
what were called traffic tab!es. This involved a great waste of
time. He did not think that they sat there for railways only,
although it would almost appear that they did so last year. He
hoped that some rational course would be laid down fur their
guidance with respect to railway legislation, and he trusted that
it would be done quickly.
Mr. P. SCROPE hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would
submit to the Committee, for their consideration, the subject
of the appointment of a Commission, to supersede Committees
on Railway Bills. He had himself been oae of a Committee
which had sat for eighty-four days last session ; and his so
serving had taught him how incompetent a Parliamentary
railway Committee was. A Commission could have got
through the business of that Committee in a few hours. He
trusted, therefore, that the Right Hon. Gentleman would con
sider the propriety of appointing five gentlemen well qualified'
to serve as a Commission upon railway Bills ; for he was
convinced that such a step would be attended with most advan-
tageous results.
Mr. MORRISON thought the best mode of putting a
wholesome check upon railway speculation was to reduce the
prof.ts upon railways; and to do that effectually he would
suggest, that the companies should be compelled to charge
low rates of fare. If a person wanted to go to Dover. he had to
pay 155., but from Ostend to Brussels—the same distance—
the charge was only 7s. 6d. With respect to the question of
the deposits, he believed that so far from the deposits having
checked speculation, that they had had quite a contrary effect.
He thought the present system of deposits was full of evil, and
required extensive alteratior. And he trusted that the subject
would receive that consideration which its importance required.
Sir R. PEEL, who was scarcely audible, said that nothing
had passed in that debate, which had at all shaken his con-
viction that her Majesty's. Government had pursued the pro-
per course, in availing themselves of the earliest opportunity of
calling the attention of the House to the difficulty in which
they might be involved, unless they took early notice of the
immense extent of railway legislation which was this year to
be presented to them. It was the duty of the Government to
submit the matter to the consideration of the House of Com-
mons, inasmuch as it was a subject affecting their own privi-
leges. He was perfectly certain that if he had brought for-
ward any scheme on the part of the' Government, and sub-
mitted it to the consideration of the whole House, he would
have been called upon at once to refer it to a Select Committee.
That was the course they intended to adopt. The Committee
would be composed of Members who had more particularly
turned their attention to the subject of railways. It had been
said that there would probably not be more than one or two
hundred plans deposited, but there had, in point of fact, been
710, involving a capital of 300,001,0001. It was true that a
very great number of these Bills would fail, either through a
non-compliance with the standing orders, or from the failure
in making the necessary deposits ; but they ought to con-
sider, as early as possible, the difficulty in which the
House might be placed with respect to these Bills.—
( Hear, hear.) He had been asked to postpone the
appointment of the Committee until it was ascertained whether
or not the railways for which plans had been deposited had
passed through the standing orders. He could not consent to
that, although it might be very possible for the Committee to
postpone their decision, as to the course to be adopted with
respect to those bills until they had gone through that ordeal.
It was absolutely necessary that they should take this subject
into consideration early. Let them consider what were the
effects of delay in the last session of Parliament. They were
not able to perform their functions last year. Many bills were
postponed, although their promoters had complied with the re-
gulations of the year 1844. They had served their notices and
had paid their deposits, yet such was the pressure upon the
House of Commons, that bills to the amount of eleven millions
were allowed to stand over, not because they were objected to
io principle, but because there was not time to consider them.
Suppose there should he one hundred or two hundred bills to
be referr. d to committees of the House of Commons,
was it not incumbent upon them to take a preliminary
view of a question of such immense importance?
Each scheme would be considered by five men. But they
would merely consider the particular scheme before them, whe-
ther or no it promised to fulfil rho expectation held out by its
promoters, or was likely to realise a remunerative profit, and
whether the estimated expenses would be sofficient to carry it
into effect; they were only required to take an abstract view
of the merits of that particular scheme. The scheme had been
thus distinctly considered, the estimates had be en found all
right ; the expectations of the promoters were likely to be
realised, the great body of the landlords on the line were con-
senting parties ; and the Committee therefore unhesitatingly
recommended the scheme, and it would then be brought under
the notice of Parliament. But when the House considered
the number of Bills which had been, and were likely to be
sanctioned, when they considered an expenditure of some
23,000,000/. for the next three years, surely it was fairly open
for consideration, whether or no they might not apply with ad-
vantage some sort of limit to capital, which. in addition to that
schemes. He had therefore her Majesty s command to draw
the attention of the House of Commons to this matter, and
at present in use, must still be required for future railway
seeing the extraordinary number of Bills, and the equally
whether they
of rival projects, there was no saying to what. extent they
ex-
traordinary amount of capital, and, as owing to the competition
m itsm virtual
t u a
lastl
might extend, her Majesty's Ministers felt that it was a duty im-
perative upon them to draw attention to the standing orders in
adhere to them, or whether some mode other. than the &resent
order to have the opinion of the House as fu
might not he substituted instead, either by taking those Hills ac-
cording to their importance and the interest the public attached
greatly to
for
bto e them,better or
advanced.inany other
Thiswa way in wahi
subjectch h
peculiarlypubl c interesteaitihi
calling
the earnest consideration of the House. He hoped
jurisdiction ; but he, at the same time, hoped that the result,
even if they were consenting to his measure,
.would. be that
House of Commons would not consent to part
of withco
their integrity and independence were preserved inviolate. He
thought the contrast exhibited by the
its honour. It showed to the country that they were session, as compared with the previous session, was
deter-
mined to discharge the duties which devolved urn them in the
consideration of private Bills, and although their decisions were
found fault with at first, yet, on the whole, he believed the public
were satisfied with the integrity of their decisions._( Elear.)
He did not deny that there might be other tribunals as compe-
tent to judge of these interests as any the 1-los, of Commons
might institute. But what could one commission, composed
of the most eminent scientific men, do. It they desired them
to inquire into the progress of these schenrs, to report which
of them were the most worthy of attention, it would be abso-
lutely necessary to have as many commissions on this as there
were Committees in the past session. They might have twenty
or more, but there could not be that security or that Public con-
fidence in these multiplied commissioners as there would be in
one. Yet at the sams time, when he said this, he did not Wish
to place himself in opposition to those Members who desired to
lighten the labours of the Committees. They reserved the
right of judging of results after the detai's had. been reported
by those competent to do so. He would now sit down, trust-
iug that the House would sanction the appointment of the
Committee he had asked for ?
Mr. COLLETT wished to know, before the question was
put, whether the Committee would be a secret or a select one?

Sir R. PEEL—Not secret, certainly. A Select Com-
mittee.

The Committee was then arnoirited.
EXTEN:AON OF I'I3IIL'IC 'WORKS Iti IRELAND.
THOMAF; FREMANTLE, in rhing to move vote
of 60,000!. for the extension of pubiie work 3 in Ireland,a said
that he thought it his duty, at this early period of the session, to
bring before the House a measure of this kind. The object of
the vote was to improve the condition of the people of Ireland,
both in their social- and their moral condition—both by mea-
sures of education and employment. At present, however,
they had more in viers—the finding of employment for the
people, without reference to the works to be raised. He had,
therefore, brought forward no new measure whatever. He
had referred to the statute which already existed,
:old he found • that the law, as there set down,
might be beneficially extended for the purposes he had
stated. At present, therefore, he proposed that a further sum
might be placed at the disposal of the Treasury, to be used for
the purpose of increasing employment in Ireland. He found
that a Bill for the draining of rivers and lands in different parts
had, with the consent of that House, passed the Legislature in
the session of 1842. Great advantages were expected to be
derived from it. He found, however, that from vat ions causes
a large number of the projects under the consideration of the
Board of Works were delayed and impeded. Many difficulties
had arisen to account for this, but the principal difficulty was
the obtaining money to carry these projects into effect. Ile
hoped, however, that the number of railways, as well as the
works which they might be the means of originating, would
infuse fresh vigour into that country, and that employmen►
would be given to its inhabitants by these undertakings, such
a result would reward him for all the trouble he had had
upon the subject. •He would not enter Wei
lengthened details on the Bill under any
' consideration.
The questions involved were of a peculiarl'i technical nature
and he was sure that he would ree,tre ale thanks o ,
f en the
Hon. Gentleman opposite—( Mr. Hutne, we understood)—ev for not
entering fully into them. But he was bound no doubt to revert
to them in some little degree. One reason why money could
net be easily obtained was that the security was not deemed
sufficient. He was not prepared to render that security ample ;
cli he intended was to propose that the money should be ad-

--PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.
(From the Votes and Pioceedings of the House of Commons.)
MONDAYi JAN.. 26.. "- • • ' The foilov, in; Petitions "for Railway Bills were presented,
and ordered to lie on the table :
Ashburten, Newfon, and South' Devon Railway.
Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle
,Railway.
London :fral Brighton-Railway (Dorkingßranch).
London and Brighton Railwiry (East.Griustead Branch).
North Kent Railway (City Extension).
Blackburn, Chorley; anct lAyerpoOl
Waverey Valley and area Yarmouth Railway. -
Taw 'Vale Railway Extension.
Blackburn and Preston Railway. -
Liverpool, Ormskirk, and Paton Railway.
Edinburgh and Leith' AtmoVieric Railway.
North British Railway. ;
Edinburgh and Nortlie.rn Railway (Newport Railway and
St. Andrew's Branch).
Edinburgh and Northern •RitilWay -(ltinross, WOodmill,
and Newburgh Branches).—
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Lochgelly and Leslie
Extensions).
Edinburgh air). Northern Railway (Dunfermline Branch).
Edinburgh in Northern Rail way. (Strathearn Deviation).
Edinburt:n and Northern Railway (Branches from the
Dundee and Arbroath Railway and Tay Ferry linf.rovement ).
Ej;:aburgh and Northern •Railway (Pettycur and Perth
".rbour Branches and Deviations).

NOTICES GIVEN AT THE PRIVATE BILL-OFFICE,

rnced by the land, at the same time taking care that they would
t interfere with the rights of the possessor. True, this was
Isivanced by a charge upon the land, but it must be remembered
that no more charge would be necessary than what would after-
wards be raised by increasing the value of it. If the Commis-
:orb:
ba
gee,
thejvoi
eneeticgt
t.
Commis-
sipnrrs of the Board of Works were satisfied, that by a certain
amount of improvement a corresponding value would follow,
they had powers given to them by the Act of 1842, to
order the necessary funds for effecting these improve..
snents. Another difficulty had been felt in the
raising of money for payment of deposits. These
deposits were necessary for preliminary expenses. It
was now proposed that the grand jury should have power in
any one or more counties to present a sum of money for these
deposits, the repayment of which sums would be fully guaran-
teed to them. When the House would consider that this sum
was only in the nature of a loan, he thought that there could
be no objection to it. In works of this great magnitude it
hisi been found that the amount of the deposits were sometimes
insufficient to cover them, and as parties were unwilling to
come forward with a second subscription, the works had
been, for want of a small sum to complete them, obliged
to stand still. He proposed, therefore, that the
Board of Works should advance these sums to be
theirs when the works were completed. Another important
alteration he intended to introduce respecting the 'drainage.
By the former law the consent of two-thirds the proprietors
were necessary before these works could be proceeded with.
Now, it frequently happened that a number of these proprietors
would not give themselves the trouble to consider any proposal
of the kind ; they were perfectly willing that others should take
the trouble to carry them forwartt, but• they were not
ofo tfwoHr
powersoi
oneverwe,k
rivers
hcheefhators) erhmf fhoopteurhaoel
companies
epo
st pr-o.uhgtrieodo
ppiwoo'
brieflyi
proprietors4sl leei
sdanr godfrt.enotf
aeovreiTengoghaauicetivl
itrideoeent
.mhvb their.aeeatasH meant
obtained,
another
aisietiteshanheneeenirdt tr,
o
entitled to a profit not
exceeding 101, per cent. upon their capital. He meant to give
a similar power to con panics supplying towns with water by
mehns of ri servoirs. The Act al-o took cognisance of waste
land and bog drainage. But as this was a new field, and as
he result must prove unfavourable as to value, power was
;ivies to the Commissioners to lease or sell parts of such re-
cairy this object into effect, thetayasoti
tainted land in order to defray the expenses of drainage. in
onclusion, he might state that it was the intention of Govern-
lent that the provisions of this Act should be carried into im-
nefiiate operation.
11r. F. FRENCH objected to the Right Hon. Baronet
stating that his present Bill was necessary to do away with the
iefects of the Bill of 1842, because it was well known that that
aeisure would have proved effective had the Commissioners
f the Board of Works not been too costly and extravagant in
heir estimates and surveys. For instance, he knew of a gen-
leman in the csunt.y of Meath who wished to make some
,rainage improvements upon his lands; and, accordingly, he
made the usual application to the Board of Works to assist him
in doing so, and they sent down their officers to make their
estimates and surveys. The report of these officers stated that
the lestimated expense of effecting the improvements would be
6,000/. ; and owing to this sum being considered more than
land and improvements were worth, the improvements were for
a time abandoned. Subsequently, however, three private in-
dividuals undertook the reclamation of the land in ques-
tion, and they accomplished, their object at a cost
of !half the sum estimated by the Board of Works,
nudely, 3,000/.--( Hear, hear, hear.) With respect to
the hubject of bog lands, he thought the Right Hon. Baronet
was' legislating properly upon this branch of the matter.
Theke were three millions of acres of bog land in Ireland,
and !efforts were made in 1809 to reclaim them. The plans
and specifications for carrying out this design were still in ex-
istence,and he thought now that the Right Hon. Baronet had
taken the subject in hand, he would do well to direct the at-
tention of the Commissioners of. the Board of Works to them,
in Oder that they might be made available for effecting one of
the objects of this Bill. At all events he was sure great be-
nefit4:would result to Ireland, by facilities being afforded to
lan* proprietors to reclaim their bog land. Already 50,000
Enelish acres had Leen reclaimed at a very moderate cost, and
h;;rriTed to see more of it restored to a state of cultivation.
Sir R. FERGUSON agreed with the opinions of his Hon.
Frit who had last addressed the House, and thought the
Rigl t Honourable Baronet had made a mistake in leaving the
entitle distribution of the 50,0001. to the Commissioners of the
Board of Works. It was true, as his Hon. Friend had stated,
that the surveys of the Board of Works had been too expen-
sive,' and this had induced many landholders to think that it
was not worth their while to make an effort to reclaim or im-
prove their lands.--( Hear, hear. )
After a few words from Sir T. FRENIANTLE, leave was
gived to bring in the Bill.
SESSIONAL ORDERS.
M. CARDWELL then moved the new sessional order making
provision for the sittings of the House on Wednesdays. He did
not, he said, intend to persevere with the sixth resolution,
which was as follows :—" That if the House be not formed at a
quarter past twelve o'clock, Mr. Speaker do then take the
cisair'and count the House, and if forty Members be not then
preseht, or if, at any time during the sitting it should appear
that forty be not present, Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House to
the next day, unless the House shall have previously resolved to
adjeurn, at its rising, to some other day."
Mr. COLLETT wished to know if the Committees, of which
there were likely to be a large limber this session, were to sit
on a Wednesday, whether the House sat or not on that day?
The parties who were interested in these Committees would
have a good deal to pay in the shape of expenses for witnesses,
&c., and it would be attended with great inconvenience, and of
court extra expenses to them, if the Committee did not sit on
aWe nesday. And yet, on the other hand, if the House
and the Committees sat at one and the same
time on Wednesdays, it would be personally incon-
venient to Honourable Members themselves, because they
would be at a loss which to attend, the Committee or the
House, but for his part ho thought it would be pursuing an
unconstitutional course if both the House and the Committees
sat at'the same time. Besides the present sessional order was
in direct opposition to a resolution which was passed on Friday.
which provided that when the Speaker went to prayers at the
opening the House, the fact should be announced to all the
Committees then siting at the time, and all the proceedings
of the Committee after such notice were to become null and
void. t He repeated then that it was unconstitutional to re-
quire the attendance of Honourable Members in two places at
once—!-( Hear, hear, and laughter.) And at the risk of receiv-
ing a visit from the Sergeant-at-Arms, he for one should not
attend any Committee upon which he might happen to be ap-
pointed, when the House sst on a Wednesday, considering
that the lesser duty of attending on a Committee, merged into
the superior duty of attending the House—( Hear, hear.)
Mr: EDWARD CARDWELL said the order was
only in experiment, and, if the Honourable Member
would only allow him to try it, he could assure the Honourable
Member that it should be abandoned if it was found to be at-
tended with inconvenience.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to
the latter objection of the Hon. Member, as to the sitting of a
Committee while the House was performing its superior func-
tions, that could easily be got over by leave being given by
the Speaker to each Committee to continue its labours while
the HOuse was sitting.
Mr. COLLETT suggested that it often happened that a
House could not be made on a Wednesday, no matter whether
the House met in the fore or afternoon, and then the House
1 was invariably adjourned within a quarter of an hour after the
Speaker bad taken the chair. New, when leave was given to
a ComMittee to continue its proceedings during the sittings of
of the 'House, the leave only extended over such time as the
House; remained sitting, and thus a Committee, as well as the
House, might meet and adjourn on a Wednesday within the
space of a quarter of an hour.
Mr. HUME thought the objection of the Honourable
Member was a fair one, and Le hoped the Government would
say positively whether the Committees were to sit on a Wed-
nesday or not, and at once get rid of the difficulty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was understood
to reply, that Government wished that the Committees should
continue their labours as usual ou a Wednesday.
Mr. HUME hoped then, that if any important measure
should be likely to come on on a Wednesday, in which Members
of any of the Committees were interested, the discussion of
those measures should be so arranged as to enable those Hon.
Members to tie present.—( Hear, hear. )
The tesolutions, as follows, were then agreed to
1. Resolved, That the House do meet every Wednesday,
at twelve at noon, for Private Business, Petitions, and Orders
of the Day, and do continue to sit until six o'clock, unless the
business be sooner disposed of.
2. It, solved, That when such business hits been disposed
of, or at six o'clock,precisely, not withstanding there may be'
business under discussion, Mr. Speaker do leave the chair,
without putting any question.
3. Resolved, That whenever
the House shall be in Com-
mittee at six o'clock, the Chairman do immediately report
progress, ant's ask leave to sit again, and that, when such
leave has been given, Mr. Speaker do leave the chair, with-
out putting any question.
4. Resolved, That the business under discussion, at the
time of such adjournment, do stand as an Order of the Day
for the next day on which the House shall sit.
NAUTICAL.

MONDAY, J.S. 6... .
North British Railway (No. l) Committee on Petition,
Friday, Feb. G. - • .
Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway—Committee on
Petition, Friday, Feb. 6. •
Ashburton, Nevrton, and South Devon Railway—Commit-
tee on Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Edinburgh ?and Leith Atmospheric Railway—Committee
on Petition, Friday, Feb. 6. •- - 'Ayrshire, Bride of Weir and Port Glasgow Junction
Railway—Committee on Petition, Wednesday, Feb. 4.
Stirling and Dunfermline Railway—Committee on PetitiOn)
Wednesday, Feb, 4. . _ .
Ayrshire and Galloway Railway--Committee on Petition,
Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Newry, Warrenpoint, and Rosstrevor Railway—Committee
on Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Belfast:and County Down Railway—Committee on Peti-
tion, Titesday, 3.
Ballymena and Ballymoney Railway—Committee on Peti-
tion, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Irish Gre,at Western Railway—Committee on Petition,
Tuesday, Feb. 3.
_Waveney Valley and Great Y Yarmouth Railway—Commit-
tee on Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Taw Vale Railway Extension—Committee on' Petition,
Tuesday, Feb. 3.
London find Brighton Railway (East Grinstead Branch)—
Committee on Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
North Kent City Extension Railway—Committee on Peti-
tion, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
London and Brighton Railway (Dorking Branch)—Com-
mittee on Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Liverpool, Ormskirk, and Preston Railway—Committee on
Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3.
Blackburn, Chorley, and Liverpool Railway—Committee
on 'Petition, Tuesday, Feb. 3. -
Blackburn and 14eston Railway—Committee on Petition,
Tuesday, Feb., B.

The following Members were appointed a Select Committee
" to consider the mode in which the House shall deal with
tli' Railway Bills proposed to be submitted to the House
during the present session":—Lord Granville Somerset, Sir
George Grey'
2 Mr. Strutt, Mr. Labouchere,-Mr. Estcourt, Mr.
Greene, Mr. Swart, Mr. Colquhouni Mr. Hodgson Hinde, Mr.
Pakington, Sir George Clerk, Mr. Baring, The O'COnor Don,
Lord Hwy Vane, and Mr. Shaw :—Power to- send for per-
sons, papers, and records; Five to be the quorum.

Sir CHARLES NAPIER moved for a return of the ex-
pense of taking the A niphion's bow down to put on,Mr. White's
bow, and then taking down a part of Mr. White's bow to put
on another to enable her to point her main deck guns right
ahead.
PUBLIC PETITIONS.
On the motion of Mr. THORNLEY, the following Hon.
Members were appointed a Select Committee on Public Pe-
titions :—Mr. Thornely, Sir R. H. Inglis, the Earl of Annan-
dale and Surrey, Viscount Courtenay, Viscount Duncan.
Captain Jones, Mr. Cowner, Mr. Pusey, Mr. Edward Buller,
Mr. Buckley, William Hamilton, Mr. Owen Stanley, Mr.
Brotherton, Mr...Villiers Stuart, and Lord Alfred Hervey.