The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-29 00:00:00

FIE S L N 0 ON, WEDNESo at It' OR, APRIL 29, - lB4d

the Guildford station had become fivefold of what had been antici-
pated by Its promoters. •
TO the CHAIRMAN—The witness replied that the Alton portion
would give considerably more than 41. 16s. per cent. dividend on the
oltriay, the difference being occasioned by the inhabitants of the
Alton district being traders, whim those of the Farnham 7
e.re agri-
culturists. If the line were made only to Tarp.* the per tentage
would be less than now stated.

Sire. Dorotas here int 17aled that the Counsel need not pursue the
Matter Mrther. na the room was cleared. On the re-admission of
atranprZ, the Chairman declared the preamble to be proved, and the
Committee then adjourned.

Cross-examined by Mr. CARBow—The Commix!!ners and the in-
habitants of the town had the " of stray" in the park, but the
ten acres of new land ^
be more useful than the old.
Mr Irs,:taidrrist,he thleineeng.wifaseertheto
best
te
that could
uldwabse
laidthen
- PonhtoeNtr,eacbteenwould
made nwoitthohuatvae
glooustl,leas siotuct hof
could
not "
eircumbendibus" of too severe a character. He endeavoured to
down.beer ts . o
•a:tdva line
advantageous,
avoid the park, but found it impossible to do so without injuring the
line. The north of the park would be alas disadvantageous for a
railway, as the curves would there be severe also, and the works
heavy,
Mr. CARROW said he was instructed that Mr. Blythe, an engineer,
could prove that the line might be taken either to the north or south
of the park without injuring it, but as he was under examination in
another Committee, he was then unable to call him.
Captain Laws explained the difficulties and dangers of junctiors
on a curve with main lines on which a considerable number of trains 1
were constantly passing and re-passing, and explained, by reference
to the map, that if the Methley branch did not proceed through a
portion of the park, that it must of necessity join the North Midland,
as a curve would be a serious disadvantage.
Mr. Caratow applied to the Committee to adjourn until to-morrow,
in order that the witness whom he had mentioned might be able to
attend.

IMPERJAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, April 28.
Their Lordships met at Five o'clock. -

SUNDAY TRADING.
Lard REDESDA LE presented a petition froze the parochial
authorities of St. George the Martyr against Sunday trading.
The Marquis of ANGLESEY
presented a petition from
St. George-in-the-East to the same effect ; also one against
the Charitable Trusts Bill.
LONDON AND YORK RAILWAY.
Lord KINNAIRD presented a petition in -favour of the
London and York Railway Bill

TILE .BUDE LIGHT.
The Earl ST. GERMANS presented a petition from wha,
he termed a very ingenious gentleman, Mr. Gurney, praying
that inquiry be made as to the eligibility of the Bude light for
the new Houses of Parliament. The Noble Earl moved that
it be referred to the Committee for Ventilation.—Agreed to.

MINISTERS' MONEY.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from the Mayor,
Aldermen, and Common Council of the city of Waterford,
praying for the abolition of ministers' money. They repre-
sented a strong case for the consideration of their Lordships—
namely, that while the whole population of Waterford
consisted principally of Roman Catholics, personal tax,
as they stated, was imposed upon than, which, they
considered, was fraught with great hardships • and, besides,
was wholly unnecessary, as the funds of the Irish Protestant
Church were abundantly sufficient, if properly applied, to defray
the expenses of public worship in the city of Waterford.
SELLING SPIRITS ON THE SABBATH.
The NOBLE LORD also presented a petition from several re-
spectable inhabitants of Tervay, Bedfordshire, praying for a
repeal of the law which allowed the sale of spirituous liquors
on the Lord's-day.

ST. ASAPH AND BANGOR.
A NOBLE LORD presented a numerously signed petition
from a place in Cornwall against the union of these sees.
SCOTCH BURGH BILL. ,
Lord BROYJG HAM presented a petition against this Bill.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.
Lord REDESDA LE presented a petition from the " Mu-
ter Filers and Seamen of the Trinity House" against this
Bill. It stated that James 11. granted certain privileges and
revenues to the Trinity House, to be applied, amongst other
things, to the relief of the widows of those who had suffered
shipwreck. TheY prayed that those revenues might not be
placed under the operation of this Act, as they were quite
ready to have their accounts inspected.
THE PROPOSED RAILWAY BILL.
Earl FIT.EWILLIAM said they were now about to enter
upon the second reading of the Bill that had been introduced
for the purpose of regulating all Ware railway Bills. He ap-
proved of the measure entirely, for he did think it was
time to put an end to the disgraceful mania
for railways that had existed, and which had been most mis-
chievous to the country at large. He would now beg to move
that there beslaid upon the table of the House an account of
the total estimated cost of all railways for which peti-
tions had been presented in this session of Parlia-
ment, distinguishing between the Bills that had been
withdrawn and those that were now pending. It
was an absurdity to call these railway Bills pdrate Bills.
They should have been dealt with with more extended views,
as Bills involving the means of communication with all parts
of Great Britain. They were national Bills, and should have
been dealt with as such. He proposed some years since to have
a general survey of the country, with a view to establish
a general system of railway communication. The answer that
he received was, that it was too late now. He differed from
people who thought that if they swamped a great number of
the present railway Bills this session they would hear no more
of railways for the future. There would always be a great dis-
position to speculate in railways. They had always been pro-
fitable investments. He believed it was not too late to take
the initiative so far as it could be taken in the matter, by esta-
blishing a railway department in connexion with the State,
something en the principle of the Poor-law Commission.
The Duke of CLEVELAND fully agreed with what had
fallen from the Noble Lord. Such a motion would have the effect
of relieving many from the position in which they bad placed them-
selves from the fever which seised them in railway speeula'.ion.
The whole system of railviay legislation required a complete
change. Nothing could be more frightful than the state of
things which prevailed, promoting bankruptcy and gambling to
a great extent, yet what had been done had been encouraged
by the Government and Parliament. If they looked to the ses-
sion of 1844, leaving out of view the projects of the present year,
they would find that more schemes were brought forward than
bad been projected from the formation of the first railway up to
that period. The present system completely dissipated the
finances of the country, as well as corrupted its morals.
Last year they had stopped the gaming houses in Pall-mall and
other places, and he could not see what difference there was
between gambling carried on in such houses and that which
had taken place in regard to railways. While in the former
case it was limited to a few places, in the latter it had ly.,come
widely extended. It was necessary, in order to check this gam-
bling, that Parliament should retrace its steps. During the
continuance of the undue speculation, many persons who were
wholly irresponsible took upon themselves the office of direc-
tors, not for the purpose of projecting schemes for the benefit
of the public, but for the express purpose of obtaining money
front the public for their own purposes. Why should there
not then be a Board of Works, to whom the plans of new lines
should be submitted, and who should give their opinion whe-
ther the railways ought or ought not to be made ?—( Hear,
hear.) This, in his opinion, would prevent the promulgation
of futile
A
projects,andtp
croe
present, parties
tyi e
smight
renderigh
tt
eke a
essential benefitm ape
tr;
the community.
iEn t
whichgl nin their d
had
ut
eh a
railway;nd s and project
eeii theya
might
de this, any p
ehhaeret
gohf
persons possessed of neither influence nor capital, and totally
unconnected with the locality for which they proposed a rail-
way. Landowners ought not to be allowed to oppose projects
simply because they passed through their land, if it could be
proved that they would confer benefits on the country, but they
ought not to be at the mercy of engineers and solcitors in
country towns.—(Hear, hear.) The Government ought to
bring in a new Bill with respect to railways, and appoint such
a tribunal as the one he suggested ; they would then have good
railways instead of bad ones, and would put an end to all those
bubble schemes of which they had heard so much. But if they
did not adopt some such plan, they might rest assured that
such projects would increase instead of diminishing.
Lord MONTEAcizzi i 6 waisz his intention to Gall for
some further information bearing on the question. It was not
always they could get an estimate of the cost of construction of
railways; and even when they only got a list of Bills, they did
net get at the root of all the mischief, because such a list would
not contain those projects on which money had been paid and
expended, but which had not come before the consideration of
Parliament. The documents he wished for were these :—he
would wish to have a list of all the motions for Bills that had
appeared in the Gnzette ; he would wish for a list of all the
Bills of which notice had been given at the Private Bill-office;
an account of all the capital
.propesed to be raised and to be
borrowed; and, as the most important of all, an account of the
number of shares issued in order to raise this capital. His
object was to show the House the necessity of putting an end to
this system of gambling.
Lord CAMPBELL rose to speak to the motion, when
The LORD CHANCELLOR proceeded to put the motion.
Lord CAMPBELL still insisting upon addressing their
Lordships,

The LORD CHANCELLOR—WiII the Noble Lord allow
me to put this motion ? He can then speak on the second
motion.

The motion was then put and carried.
Lord CAMPBELL---I am very glad that we are able to jog
on a little in our business. It certainly is not, however, owing
to my Noble and Learned Friend. The part of the House in
which he sits is generally the most irregular quarter of the
House.

The LORD CHANCELLOR—I have no authority, like
the Speaker of the House of Commons, to call Noble Lords
to order. If I had, I have no doubt I should have occasion
every day to call the Noble Lord to order.—( Laughter. )
Lord. CAMPBELL—I knnw my Noble and Learned Friend
has no power to call Noble Lords to order, but he has the
power of preventing disorder. The most disorderly quarter of
the:House is that which is nearest the woolsack.—( Laughter. )
The Noble Lord went on to say that he thought there should
be a railway department in connexion with the Government.
The loan appointed last year had failed, because their powers
were not defined by an Act of Parliament. He trusted that
the suggestion thrown out by the Noble Lord would meet with
the serious attention of the Government.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—The Railway Board of
last session was appointed in consequence of the proceedings
of a Committee of the House of Commons, and a report of the
House of Commons. Its powers were limited in consequence
of that report. It was a measure imposed by certain private
transactions which came before Parliament, to enable the
promoters of these transactions to carry them into execution.
The Noble Lord might be right ; Parliament did not, per-
haps, give sufficient power.
Lord BROUGHAM thought the Government could not
have done worse than getting up a report, but the Beard of
Trade was materially crippled by it. He agreed, with the
Noble Lord behind him that a Board should be formed, for not
only a railway department, but' for all private Bills. He
looked upon the manner in which such things were conducted
by our continental neighbours. He was perfectly satisfied
that the decisions of such a Board in every instance would
make the law, and they would have constant and economical,
but, above all, right and just decisions. It was impossible that
the Committee at present sitting on railway Bills, could satis-
factorily perform their duties. It was Letter done in that
House than in the Representative House, from their Lordships
being a more judicial body; still it was not performed in the way
that it ought to be done. He hoped that some such salutary
agreed with the Noble and
itihialtuhße
Tre(f)eNrrepdertfoecwtloyuld be adopted.—(Hear.)
emheiLpaoss:rdrtehAaatSs
altered, and some responsible and efficient. Board
Learned Lord, and with the feeling expressed by their Lord-
in the matter or if they did
the whole system of railway legislation
appointed.should be
Committee of that House would consider
' '
muledthntontghave to wait much longer before
not, he trusted that
the state of things complained of.
some plan for meeting
theEie hoped
Governmenttthat they
d the respect of those whom its decisions
so as to command
apprehended that it would not
would affect. But he .
not, be-
cause
The Board suggested by the Noble Duke should be. constituted
they had an instance in the Poor-law Commitsioners—
iydawsoocomm
men of respectable position and influence being made an ob-
ject which parties, whom their decisions affected, treated
with considerable obloquy. He was afraid that such a tribunal
would not meet with the approbation of the public. If the
Committees, in deciding on the Bills submitted for their con-
sideration this session, paid particular attention to the amount
essatigdo,°i{tifthough the Noble Lord abused
of capital invested, and to the wants of the districts through
which they were designed to pass, he believed that no projects
save those required would pass into law. He could not sit
down without expressing his strong conviction that the mea-
surethe House
IhdeocrifeOve'r, .to address brought forward by the Government was loudly called
rfooraidoasr,nddließwß(ouPlodUredGffßellertoAuggriham) could state, that they had been
really improved voefdpdAurLintlothueslaisEt four
said ,orhefiveennyeeeairvse.d
relisse
walyshedde:
opinion on the
few words, calling attention to the fact, that his Noble Friendsssa
about him, and his Colleagues in the other Rouse,
were
qwuoeusltdi o nil obt owf oi rs he
theh imHtcrou es
House.
responsible for the absence of any measure for controlling raiwnaot
In the very first session after her Majesty's Ministers obtained
power there was no appearance of a number of railway Bills at
all, but in the next session, wheli there was likely to be a
great demand for projects of that kind, her Majesty's Govern-
gment took the subject into their consideration, and in the ver
first week of that session a Committee was appointed on they
subject on the motion of the President of the Board of Trade.
The subject was minutely gene into by that Committee, and
their report, after fully entering into the subject of railways,
and their superintendence, recommended that a department of
the executive Government should be entrusted with a certain
I preliminary authority on railway. Bills, before their coming
into Parliament. The Committee recommended that that
department should be entrusted with some authority, and
should report on the desirability, or not, of such Bills ; and
in their recommendation the province of dealing with these
Bills was assigned to the Board of Trade. He need not re-
mind their Lordships that at that time there was an extreme
degree of jealousy on the part of the representatives of the
eople, and not less jealousy on the part of their Lordships,
pagainst any assumption of control over those projects by the
... and, therefore, the Committee distinctlylaid
Government ,
pa
which should be • inc
down the powers w . . iven to that de-
rtment—exactly what they should inquire into and no
He had the honour of being placed' at the
more.
head of that department. He could state, with perfect confi-
' deuce, that uo labour was spired ou his own ?art, and
en the

proper manner, and with satisfaction to the public.
be impos.ible for the gentlemen entrusted with the discharge
part of those who acted w ith him, to discharge tlieir duties
ie
ws
oianm a
of this duty, to have appliedthemselvcs to it with more assi-
duity, industry, or ictegrity, than they had; but they could
not dare venture to go beyond the line laid down as that which
limited their duties. For this limit they could not blame
either the House or the Government. If there limits were to
be enlarged, good and well ; but until they were,
no blame
could be attached to the Committee. He had now only to say,
that a Committee had been appointed for the purpose of inquir-
ing into the subject, and he had no doubt the result would be
such as would enable this House to come to some final deter-
mination upon the subject. In conclusion, he had only to
say that there could be no objection to the returns moved for by.
the Noble Lord ; but there might be some difficulty in getting
some of them.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that having been brought in
contact with this subject in some measure, he would wish to
say a few words. He did not find fault with this Committee
going somewhat beyond its liii its. He rejoiced that there ap-
peared a growing conviction t.f some organisation for control-
ing the operations of that part of the public business. He
thought that such orgalliation could not be effected without
some considerable difficulty, arising from the constitution of
their Lordship's House. He thought it desirable such 'an or-
ganisation should be made.
Tim motion was teen aeed to.
MESSAGES FROM HER MAJESTY-VISCOUNT
HARDINGE AND LORD Ot)UGH.
The Earl of RIPON brought two messages to their Lord •
ships which were then read. " Her Majesty having taken into
her consideration the services of Viscount Hardioge, Governor-
General of India, upon the banks of the Sutlej, and in the
Punjaub, and being desirous of conveying some marks of her
favour to Lord Hardinge, and the two next heirs male of his
body, recommends your Lordships to adopt some measure
for carrying the same into effect. Her Majesty having taken
into her consideration the services of Lord Hugh Gough,
Governor-General of the army in India, upon the banks of
recommends
same sour
Lointo
effect."
Sutlej, and in the Punjaub, and being desirous of con-
veying some marks of her favour to Lord Hugh Gough, and
d
the two s nextt oadoptmale
some heirs
measures of his
forbo
carryingy'

The Earl of RIPON said that on Thursday next, he would
move the consideration of the subject.
THE RAILWAY DEPOSITS BILL.

The Earl of DALHOUSIE moved the second reading of
this Bill. He hoped there would be no opposition to the second
reading.

Lora CAMPBELL was willing. to give every assistance to
the Noble Lord. He, however, wished to call his attention to
the 17th clause, which gave great power to the chairman of
those Committees. If a chairman was to make a false return,
or falsify the minutes, there was no redress, as the Bill at pre-
sent stood. This was an important point, which he wished to
point out for the consideration of the Noble Earl. There ought
to be-a. review of such proceedings by the competent Court, ere
the publication in the London Gazette was made absolute. It
was most desirable that a tribunal should review, and have the
power to reverse any decision that a chairman should falsely re-
turn. That granted, he agreed that advertisements inserted
in the Londns,Gazette should he a final authority as to the
calling of the meeting, and the resolution; it had come to. He
trusted the Noble Earl would consider the matter between that
and going into committee on the Bill.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord WHARNCLIFFE wished to call the attention of
the Noble Earl to one other point. It was in reference to the
19th clause of the Bill, which required that the
.parties pro-
moting a Bill should return the number of shares issued. He
thought it right to be extended so as to be of a more perma-
nent character than was embodied in the BM, there being at
present no mode by which the parties most interested in a Bill
could lessen the amount of reserve shares, or the manner in
which they were issued. s
The Earl of DALHOUSIE said thatswith respect to the
limitation of the Bill, he thought it would be better that it
should be restricted to two years. With regard to the point
respecting the registration of shares, he was desirous of
its being carried into effect. In passing the Joint Stock
Companys Act of last session, the object was to obtain a full
account of the shares issued in the formation of companies,,and
other particulars in reference thereto. At present the Standing
Orders' Committee also required information as to the shares taken
up, and the returns were he believed generally accurate, at
least he did not. think there was much trickery. These points
however would have his best attention, though he considered
a chairman would hardly rule the falsifying of the returns, as
his proceedings would be subjected to the closest scrutiny.
Still, in order that every precaution might be taken against such
a contingency, he would consider the means of remedying it.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Thursday next.
COMMONS ENCLOSURE BILL.

The Commons Enclosure Bill was read a second time.
T heir Lordships then adjourned till Thursday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 28.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
BRIDPORT ELECTION.
The Clerk of the Crown appeared at the table to amend the
return for the borough of Bridport, by inserting the name of
Mr. John Romilly for that of Mr. Baillie Cochrane.
Mr. ROMILLY then took the oaths and his seat.
Mr. GEORGE HOPE moved that the Committee, of
which he was chairman, should have leave to proceed with the
Bills in their Group No. 4; without requiring their com-
pliance with the resolutions proposed by the Hon. Member for
Finsbury.

Sir G. CLERK said he was not prepared at present te
accede to the motion, and proposed that the discussion should
be ajourned till twelve o'clock tomorrow.

Air. HOPE objected to the discussion being adjourned to
another day, on account of the expenses it would entail on the
promoters of the different lines comprised in Group 4,
After a few words from Sir A. Leith Hay, Mr. Greene, and
Mr. Gisborne,
Mr. HOPE consented to withdraw his motion.
SECOND READINGS.

The following Bills were read a second time, and ordered to
be committed, viz. :

Charing-ems Bridge, and Frilford (Berks) Inclosare.
REPORTS.

The following reports were brought up, the amendments and
alterations agreed to, and the Bills ordered to be engrossed,
via. :

Ashburton, Newton, and South Devon Railway.
Glasgow, Garnkirk, and Coatbridge Railway Extension.
Edinburgh. Leith, and Granton Railway Amendment.
Glasgow, Paisley, and Greenock Railway (Harbour Branch).
Colchester, Stour Valley, and Halstead Railway.
Great Grimsby and Sheffield Junction Railway Extensor*
(No. I ).
Great Grimsby and Sheffield Junction Railway Extension
(No. 3).
Harwich and Eastern Counties Junction Railway and Pier.
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Pettycur and Perth Har-
bour Branches ant Deviations).
North British Railway ( Hawiek Branches).
Eastern Union Railway ( Ardleigh to Colchester).
THIRD READINGS.
The following Bills were read a third time and passed, viz.--
Taunton Gas.

Eastern Union and Hadleigh Junction Railway.
Maldon, Witham, and Braintree Railway.
GOLLON INCLOSURE BILL.
Sir JOHN W ALSH moved the second reading of this Bill.
Gollon was a piece of land which would be greatly benefited by
being inclosed. The cottagers and other occupants of the
place had been opposed to the inclosure, but were now satis-
fied that if the lands were inclosed their condition would be im-
proved.
Lord WORSLEY opposed the second reading, on the ground
that the cottagers had exercised the right of common for up-
wards of 60 years, and their rights ought not to be done away
with. He had given notice of his intention of opposing the
Bill, so that the attention of the Government might be drawn
to it, the Bill being in opposition to the resolutions and
principles of the general Act passed last session of Parliament.
If the present Bill was carried, the provisions of that Act would
be done away with as far as the inclosure was concerned.
He assured them that he only opposed the Bill on public
grounds.
After a few words from Mr. EsTcouaT and Mr. M.
SUTTON,
Colonel WOOD hoped that some amendments would be in-
troduced into the Bill in reference to the principality of Wales,
for if not the whole of the principality would be thrown into
confusion.

Mr.,M. PHILIPS was of opinion that a vast amount of
good would follow from this Bill, and it would also, no doubt,
be desirable to remedy the defect with regard to Wales.
Mr. AGLIONBY was of opinion that this Bill, though a
private one, had now attained the importance of a public one,
and therefore he would say a word or two upon it. It was de •
sirable to have a special clause inserted in the general Act.
He did not oppose the Bill before the House. He wished to
have the expenditure in such cases materially reduced.
The Bill was then read a second time.
Major BERESFORD presented a petition against the
Cornish Coast Railway.
Another HON. MEMBER presented a petition against the
Yeovil and Dorchester Railway.
Mr. W. PATTEN moved-44 That it be an instruction to
the several Committees on Railway Groups, that in all instances
in which railway companies propose to take powers of araalga-
mation with other companies, either by sale, purchase,
lease, or otherwise, the rates and charges of such .e
panics be revised, and a new imposed;maximum that
in_
they specially. report any circumstance which may have
duced them .to allow such maximum to exceed the minimum
-of rates and tolls actually charged and received by the respec-
tive companies at any previous period ;—that they also append
to their report a schedule, containing, under the various heads
of traffic, the minimum of rates anti tolls previously received,
and the maximum which it is proposed to allow the companies
to take under their Bill.
STANDING ORDERS' COMMITTEE.
Mr. ESTCOURT brought up the report from this Com-
mittee, in which it was stated that on the St. Alban's Railway
the Bristol, Manchester, Birmingham, and the Birming-
ham and Gloucester Extension Railway Bills, the standing
orders had not been comp'lt.d with.
Messengers from the Lords brought down several Bills.
LORD HARDINGE AND LORD GOUGH.
MESSAGES FROM HER MAJESTY.
Sir R. PEEL appeared at the bar of the House with a Mes-
sage from her Majesty.
The SPEAKER read the Message as follows :—" Her Ma-
jesty, taking into consideration the great and brilliant
services performed by Henry Viscount Hardinge, Lieu-
tenant-General of her Majesty's Forces, and Governor-
General of India, in the course of the recent hostilities
which have taken place on the banks of the Sutlej and in
the Ponjlub, is desirous to confer some signal mark of her
favour for those and other distinguished merits of the said
Henry Viscount Hardinge, upon him and the two next surviv-
ing heirs of his body ; and she recommends to her faithful
Commons the adoption of such measures as shall be necessary
to accomplish that object."
Sir R. PEEL then brought up the following Message, which
was read by
The SPEAKER—" Her Majesty, taking into consideration
the great and brilliant services of Hugh Lord Gough, Lieu-
tenant-General of her Majesty's Forces and Commander
of the East India Company's forces in India, in the course
of the recent hostilities which have taken place on the
banks of the Sutlej and in the Punjaub, being desirous to con-
fer some signal mark of her favour for these and other distin-
guished merits of the said Hugh Lord Gough, to him and the
two next surviving heirs male of his body, recommends to her
faithful Commons the adoption of such measures as shall be
necessary to accomplish that object."
On the motion of Sir R. PEEL, her Majesty's most gracious
Messages were ordered to be taken into consideration on Mon-
day next.

MR. SMITH OBRIEN.
Mr. ESTCOURT brought up a report from the Committee
on Group II of Railway Bills.
The Clerk read the report, which stated that at one o'clock
this day the Members comprising the Committee on Group
11 of Railway Bills were present in the Committee-room, and
that Mr. Smith O'Brien did not attend within one hour, the
time appoin'ed.
The SPEAKER called on Mr. Smith O'Brien.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN rose and said—Sir, I presume that
the object of this House, in calling upon me, is to give me an
opportunity of making an explanation to this House. I
feel obliged for this opportunity, but I have already stated
my views and intentions fully and finally in the correspondence
which has passed between* myeelf 'and the' Committee of Se-
lection. I do not think it necessary to add anything to the
smatters contained in those letters, mot asn I desirous of with.

drawing any thing from the substance contained in those letters.
The Hen. Member here eithdrew.
11fa. ESTCOVRT said that he wished to state the grounds
on ehich he should ask the ruppeet of the House to a motion
which he should mate, and to state to the House that,- con-
Weal: g those circumstances, and the motion he was about
to make, this was the mostoainfal duty he ever had to perform:
thee.,
He
making that statement, for so long as he held the situation which
he thee held, which has been since the Committee of Selection
,had been instituted by that House, this was the first and only
time he had ever been called on to perform a duty similar
to tie present one. On the 12th of February last that House
framed certain resolutions, and amongst them was one to the
effect that the Committee of selection should form certa.n
Committees of inquiry into the merits of railway Bills.
The Committee of Selection by a resolution of this House
were ordered to give ample notice to those Members whom
they might choose to select, which notice was not to be less
than fourteen days. The Committee accordingly thought
it would be ex' edient to frame such a resolution, that
they might be able to give the ' notice required, and
before the Easter recess it was given to the Hon. Gentleman,
who was one of those sa-cted. He received notice that on the
27th of the present month his attendance would be expected
so early as the 3d of April ; on that day he wrote
a letter to me, as Chairman of the Committee, and
in it he' enclosed a copy *7 another letter, whisk
was addressed to me, when a similar summons was
received by the Hon. Member; and the reason given for so
doing t..as that he (Mr. Estcourt) might, by referring to it,
know his reasons for refusing to comply with the
summers, stating that he had not seen any reasons
since. That letter was written to change his opinions.
He received that letter on the 3d of April ; that was on a
Friday. The first sitting of Committees of Selection was not
until the Tuesday following, the 6th of April, and, of course,
he could take no measures on receipt of this letter
until he had an opportunity of submitting the same
to his colleagues the Members of the Committee
of Selection.
On th
the 6of April this Committee met, and then he (Mr. Estcourt ; laid Lefore them the letter with the inclosures received
from tlse Hon. Member. The Committee of Selection found that
the lion. Member objected to serve on Committees havirg n relation to Ireland. And they also found that the Hon. Mem-
bero stated his reason for so objecting. He (Mr. Estcourt)
believed that lie could not better put the House in
possession of the grounds on which the Committee had acted
than by reading part of the correspondence which had taken
place between himself and the Honourable Member.
But first he would draw the attentian of the House
to that particular part of the Honourable Member's
letter on which the Committee had acted. The Hon. Member-
' said that as long mire continued to serve in that House as one
of the liish Representatives he would not until Ireland
was placed upon a footing of political equality with
England think of devoting his time to the business of
this country. Then he went en to say that he had no
wish to interfere with the affairs of England or Scotland,
unless those affairs were in some way connected with his
own country. And be added, that he had abstained
while in that House from voting on questions of a merely local
nature from the same motives. The Committee of Selection
had instructed him again to write to the Hon. Member, stating
that no reason had been assigned which was in their opinion
sufficient to justify them in absolving the on. Member from
those duties which were imposed upon other Hon. Members.
He did write to the Hon. Member, informing him that the
Committee could not recognise such an excuse, and they would
not, therefore, be justified in exempting him from the perform-
ance of the duties which commenced on the 27th of April.
Au addition was made to the letter, to the effect that the
Committee would be happy to make any arrangement to delay
the Hon. Member's attendance till a later period, if it would
be any accommodation to him to do so. That letter
he sent to the Honourable Member the next day,
and on the following day he received an acknow-
ledgement from the Honourable Member, in which the
Hon. Member stated that his objection to serving on these
Committees was founded on the relation which at
present existed between his oar, country and Great
Britain, and was in no way connected with his
personal convenience. The Hon. Member, therefore, stated
that his former communication announced his final determina-
tion. He (Mr. Estcourt) had not an opportunity of lay-
ing that letter before the Committee of Selection
till after the recess, and then the Committee felt a
sufficient excuse had not been given to justify the
non-attendance of tl e Honourable Member, and they
placed his name on the Committee appointed to consider
the merits of the Bills comprised in Group No. 11. In ac-
cordance with the resolutions of the House, Hon. Members were
required to make a declaration that they were not in any way
interested in the Bills referred to them ; but the Hon. Member
for Limerick neglected to make this declaration, and on Friday
last he (Mr. Estcourt) reported this fact to the House, in accord-
ance with a resolution agreed to by the Committee of Selection.
Nothing further had transpired after that. He (Mr. Estcourt)
had regretted that the Hon. Gentleman, since that last letter,
had made no communication to the Committee of Selection,
and he had not attended the Committee yesterday. He then
found that it was his duty to make that motion, that the Hon.
Gentleman should attend the House to-day. That motion
was founded on the sixteenth resolution of the 12th February
last. His next step was to make this determination known to
the lion. Gentleman yesterday. He was, however, disap-
pointed of his attendance, and he was consequently now com-
pelled to report to the Route the resolution to which the Hon.
Gentleman had come, in order thatithe House might express
their opinion respecting it. The notice of the previous deter-
mination of the House had been duly sent; he was therefore
compelled to bring the matter before them on the present occa-
sion, stating, firstly, the fact of the lion. Gentleman's not at-
tending the Committee yesterday ; next, his not attending the
Committee to-day, after the order of the House had been made
known to him; and lastly, his not attending on the House to-
day. Hon. Gentlemen were aware that he (Mr. Estcourt) was
not in the habit of frequently intruding:upon them ( Cheers)—
but he must take this opportunity of assuring them that he and
the other members of the Committee of Selection were deeply
sensible of the readiness with which their services were rendered,
not only on the ordinary Committees of Private Bills, when
their assistance was not compelled, but also on the more ar-
duous occasions, when their attendance was considered indis-
pensable. He could assure them that those services were
duly appreciated both by the country and the house. It
should be recollected that these Committees were only tem-
-1 porary, to induce throughout the erasion of Parliament, and
there was therefore the less excuse for any Hon. Member
throwing the labour which lie ought to bear upon the shoul-
ders of others. This resolution of the 12th of February
would compel the Committee of Selection to the unpleasant
duty of calling upon other persons to do his duty. He could
not :it down without taking that opportunity of repelling the
charge that the Members of that House had not done their
duty.—(Loud cheers.) He could bear his testimouy that the
Irise Members had cheerfully, kindly and ably discharged the
duties intrusted to them, and he would especially refer to the
Hon. Member for Cork—(Hear, hear, and cheers)—who had
discharged his duties in reference to the Committees with
great readiness and extraordinary ability ; and presented in
his case an example worthy of imitation.—(Hear, hear.) He
must now make the motion, which it became his duty to
make, and he was sorry that it should have fallen to his lot to
do S.O. Ile now begged to move, " That William Smith
O'Brien, Esq., having disobeyed the order of of the House, in
refusing to attend as one of the Committee upon the merits of
the line of railways comprised in Group 11, is guilty of a con-
tempt of the House."

The ATTORNEY. GENERAL seconded the motion.
Mr. O'CONNELL was sure the House would give him the
crt d;t of believing him when he stated that he would nut rise
to advocate the line of ccnduct adopted by Mr. Smith
O'Brien on the present occasion, if that gentleman intended
the slightest disrespect to the House. He was quite sure that
the lion. Member had acted from the strongest feelings of
what he conceived to be his duty, and he would not lightly de-
part from it. The House ought to pause before they took any
steps on this matter ; and there were two grounds on which
they should give it the fullest consideration. The first was,
whether the Act -of Union gave the British House of Commons
any authority such as that claimed over Irish .Members. There
was no common law jurisdiction applicable to the case since
1793. The other point which he would impress upon the
House was with reference to the Committee of Selection. Of
course, he was not disposed—he was never less disposed than at
the present moment—to say anything derogatory to that Com-
mittee. Before the 12th of February last, ne stringent measure
of that House had been adopted to compel the attendance of
Members of that House upon Committees. Up to that time
the attendance was voluntary, and, in many instances, it was
still voluntary. Now the question was, whether the violation
of a power delegated to a Committee was punishable as con-
tempt. The House had not the jurisdiction of the common law
to compel the attendance of Members. The only power was
ratutory, and that statute was the 6th of Henry VIII., by
which it was enacted that a Member of the House should be
required to attend. If there had been a common law juris-
diction, that statute would have been totally unnecessary.
The penalty mentioned in the statute of Henry wonld certainly
not operate now, as it was the loss of the absent Member's
wages.—(Laughter.) If there had been a violation of any
rule, it was one adopted by a Committee which had been
appointed by the House, and could not be considered a ton-
tempt towards the House. He hoped, therefore, that the
would pause before they decided upon the motion which had been
submitted to them. House

F
but it was absolutely
g.-
r-
el.
trieedta this
question ATTORNEY-GENERALhad arisen,
ne-
cessary that the House should come to a decision, and he
thought,
by the determination which had been expressed by the Hon.
Member for Limerick, that there was no other course for them
to take, hut to adopt the resolution which had been proposed
with very great regret by his Hon. Friend the Member for Ox.s
ford. That question now assumed a much more serious
character than when it originally arose, because it was now
connected with the important considerations which had been
shortly addressed to the House by the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber for Cork. They were not only there to consider whether
they were to interfere with the Hon. Member who had re-
fused his obedience to the orders of the House, but they were
to consider the further important question now submitted to
the House by the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork.
Whether there were nut a portion of the Members of that
Houses who were beyond it corxtol who had an in-
dependent authority distinct from the authority of
the House over the other Members. The Hon. Member had
sent a communication to them refusing his obedience to any
order which compelled his attendance on Committees on any
subject not connected with the local interests of the country to
which he belonged. Let the House consider for one moment
in what position it was with respect to the general question
then before it. In the month of February, 1846, it was con-
sidered necessary, in consequence of the pressure of business
arising out of the number of applications for railway Bills,
that this House should come to a resolution by which Com-
mittees might be formed of all those Members who had been
chosen by the Committee of Selection, which was itself estab-
lished by a resolution of the House in 1839. The House
should not forget that in the resolution it had passed, every
Member of that House was supposed virtually to have given
his consent to ti:eir adoption, and the Hon. Member for
Limerick was as much a party to that resolution as any other
Member from England or Scotland. The Hon. Member a',
that time toots no objection, as he might have done, but sub-
mitted to their resolution, which was passed for the convenience
of the House, and which bound him as well as every Member
of that House. The Hon. Member had been chosen by the
Committee of Selection to attend on a particular group
of railway Bills, and he referred the Committee
atsiaoleat, in w
terwhichhiaht
hseenthatvointghembe,eato
chosen
ahofoserma etraletster_e on of last
private Bill—he refused to attend, for reasons which
in whicehtrhvheelettiateenr
gave, and which reasons were fully incorporate
addressed to the Committee this session. There were parts
e House to con-
of that letter which it became imperative on
the objection of the Hon. Member depende . .
q which
these opin,
sider, because they were the foundation of thethrde.asonTsho:
Hon.
the
Member stated that he would express.
of
want of knowledge the
Bement was not compitent, through
had arisen from a long formed conviction,
legislate w isely for Ireland.—
that a British Par-
people, or want of inclination, to
anxious to advance the
i)slatSuore,that the Hon. Member,
_ declares that we are in-
a(
empire,CmheemerbserfroofmthtehelmOpperpioaslitLioang.
and declares that Irish Legis-
lationish Members alone, and re-
fuses to join with us, grounding his reasons on the as-
sertion that none but the representatives of the Irish
ration should legislate for Ireland. Now, if it was
-(o-mpetent for the Honourable Member for Limerick
to de line attending on any Committee, which has not for its
object some local iutereat of Ireland. it would h. ...„.n. ‘.....