The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-25 00:00:00

PRIVILEGE.

Mr. C. ANSTEY wished to explain a mistake which
had crept into the report of Friday night's debate. He
was reported to have charged the Right Hon. Baronet
the Secretary of State for the Home Department with
having selected passages from a speech of his Hon. and
Learned Friend the Member for Athlone, and sup-
pressing others which would have materially qualified
his Hon. and Learned Friend's opinion. He wished it
to be understood that be had made no such charge.
OVERLOADING STEAM-BOATS.

Mr. LUSHING TON wished to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department a ques-
tion of some importance to the metropolis. It would no
doubt be in the recollection of the House that the
attention of the Lord Mayor had been directed to the
circumstance of overloading steam-packets plying on the
river Thames, and his Lordship had given it as his opi-
nion that no real remedy would be applied to the evil
until between 400 and 500 had been drowned. He
therefore wished to ask whether, under this state of
things, Government were prepared to propose any regu-
lations for the purpose of reforming the system?
Sir G. GREY said the question came more imme•
diately under the cognizance of the department of his
Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade,
and he would be glad if the Hon. Gentleman would re-
peat his question on another occasion.
DISTURBANCES IN EDINBURGH.
Mr. IIUME, seeing the Lord Advocate in his
place, wished to ask him a question connected
with an occurrence that took place in Edinburgh on the
3d, of July. It would be remembered that a disturbance
arose there relative to a sale of the goods of a defaulter
in payment of the minister's rate, and the military
were called out to protect the auctioneer who
conducted the sale in the execution of his
duty. The qucstio❑ hp wished to ask was, why the civil
power ayes not used instead of the military to quell the
disturbance ?

. The LORD ADVOCATE was understood to state
that the occurrence referred to by the Hon. Member
took place on the occasion of a sale in Edinburgh. The
mob which had collected became so unruly that the police
were not sufficiently numerous to disperse it, and the
consequence was that the military were called out, and
h e had been assured by many persons of great
judgment and experience that it would have been
utterly impossible, without their assistance, to have put
down the disturbance. lie observed that the police
force of Edinburgh was entirely inadequate in numbers,
and was besides badly paid, and had it been sufficiently
numerous he was ct opinion there would have been no
necessity to have called in any part of the military. He
hoped that the Commissioners of the Edinburgh Police
would turn their attention to this matter, and see that
the police force was increased.
IRELAND.

In reply to a question from Mr. S. CRAWFORD,
Lord J. RUSSELL said the lion. Member's motion
with respect to the state of Ireland might be taken on
Friday next.
STOCK IN TRADE EXEMPTION BILL.
Sir R. H. INGLIS inquired if it was the intention of
the Government to bring in a general measure on this
subject?
Sir G. GREY said the subject was one surrounded
with difficulties, and that he could not give a pledge to
that effect.

SUPPLY.—IRISH JURIES.
On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. FAGAN rose to resume the adjourned debate on
Mr. Keogh's motion with respect to the constitution of
Irish juries. He said the time had at length arrived when
they must look the evils under which Ireland laboured
sternly in the face, and not delay the remedial measures
which she required longer. He did not think it would
be fair to allow the observations of the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir G. Grey) with respect to that Hon. Gen-
tleman's address to pass unnoticed. Though he differed
with the political opinions of the lion. Member as widely
as the poles were asunder, yet he must be permitted to
say of him that he was not the first to introduce a
spirit of acrimony into the debate. It was true he
introduced some party feeling into the debate; but his
observations were directed against the Government and
not against individuals. Personalities were first intro-
duced into the debate by the Right Hon. Baronet, who
charged the Hon. Member for Athlone with having
praised the Whig Government of 1840, and of having
become a Conservative in 1848. If he had done so—
and really that was not the matter at issue before
the House—he had simply done that of which the
Cannings and Pitts of former days were not ashamed.
In his opinion the Hon. Gentleman was an able statesman,
and might rank amongst the best politicians of his coun-
try. He regretted the Hon. Member for Dublin had
joined in the personal attack upon the Hon. Member.
The rule that had been carried out and adopted was a
perpetual and total exclusion of the Roman Catholics
from the jury lists in Ireland, without any regard to
their political opinions. The truth of the matter was,
and
dt
minr.comneseaqguheenr,celof the t
good
d dealrials
ofoef
xiNr
clite.
mSmenitthpO'B
revarilieedn
trialbo ibnyDj unbr
yl i
aanndd itnh
itah i
es
xeecii
tuenn re3;tu pnoant
ah
lel
ys uebjpeercat t
eodf
hiear.)
r s4t r kr iT.n g
e-
rt
eh e jcuryd
tuopontrythemmr.inemi
jotefhethte—(sHheerairil,;
a lr
overy
Csaetl
he cotlei
eels,
andbe anopredr preference wasoeurebntthat
which had led to tghthieveeenrjetuaotril'roonlovtefa'sstamiugtnosod deal of dis-
content in Ireland upon the subject of Mr. Mitchel's trial.
Ho sincerely hoped that- the discussion ill that House
would have the effect of securing fair and impartial juries
for those prisoners who were now ou the eve of trial, and
justice to the people of Ireland. He would give his
cordial support to the motion of his lion. Friend.
Mr. H. GRATTAN likewise supported the motion,
taking the same view of the duty of the Government
officers respecting the religious and political sentiments
of those placed upon the lists, from neither of which
did he think they ought to be rejected as jurors. He
would advise the Government not to irritate the people
further. The people were reduced to such a state now
that it was impossible to live in the country without
running the risk of losing one's life. The Government
would flatter themselves, indeed, if they fancied that
fever or famine were at an end. The people were living
at, in many case, ld, a day from week to week. He
objected to the manner in which the Bill for the suspen-
sion of the Habeas Corpus Act was pas,,e(l. The Go-
vernment had no right to come down to the House
and take away the liberties of the Irish people, their
representatives being almost wholly absent from the
House, and solely on account of a few madmen having
gone about the country trying to exeite the people, and
writing some violent articles in a couple of newspapers.
He was lately in the county of Monaghan, which was
stated to be a disturbed county, but in his opinion the
people there had no arms, and had not the slightest
Ldea of a disturbance.—(Hear, hear.) It seemed to
him that the connexion between Ireland and this coun-
try was only to be, maintained at the expense of the
liberties of the Irish people.--(Hear, hear.) The Go-
Tevainent, for the-purpose- of vawiliatioglhe people of

Ireland, ought to send back to them the Irish aristocracy,
the absentee proprietors, and the rents ,shich they bad
taken away. The proceedings in that House had 016-
appointed the country from year to year. When, then,
the Noble Lord foun'il that the people of Ireland where
discontented, he came down to the House with a Bill to
deprive them of their liberties, and designated men as
traitors who were no more traitors than the Noble Lord
himself. The Noble Lord also stated that the Bill was
intended to put down a set of men whose object was
plunder. He repudiated the assertion that their object
was plunder. He was sure that was not the object of
Mr. S. O'Brien. He would assure the House that the
minds of the Irish people were poisoned by the London
journals as well as Irish papers. Referring to the
measures for Ireland which were before the House, he
said that there was one which could not pass, anotler
too late, and a third (the Incumbered Estates Bill)--
a Bill to enable' pauper landlords to sell their over,
burthened acres—and which would be of no benefit
to the people of Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman concluded
by stating that there was an attempt made to sow civil
and religious discord in the northern part of Ireland, in-
asmuch as one of the employes of, the Dublin Castle watt
known to have said that if the repealers of that part of
Ireland did not abandon the repeal cry they would be given
up to the Northern Orangemen.
[llere the debate was for a short time interrupted bye
message from the House of Lords, to the effect that their
Lordships had passed several Bills, amongst which was
the Habeas Corpus Suspension (Ireland) Bill, which an-
nouncement produced much cheering.]
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would not follow the
Hon. Gentleman who last spoke in alluding to his obser-
vations on the Bill which passed the House last Saturday.
If anybody doubted the necessity which existed for such
a measure he had only to read the intelligence which bad
arrived that day from Ireland to arrive at the conclusion
that the House was fully justified in passing it. With
regard to what fell from the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Keogh)
who brought forward this amendment in reference
to the motives which had induced him to leave the House
on Friday night, he should say that he left the House
not through any disrespect to the Hon. Gentleman nt
the motion which he brought forward, but because be
himself had a motion of great importance to bring before
the House on the following morning, and because be
had to read several documents, and to consider well the
grounds which he should put forward for the introdur
tion of so important a measure. He knew it would WO
some time to inspect those documents, and he thoughtbe
had better leave the House for that purpose than to st•
tend during the remainder of the debate on the Hop'
Gentleman's motion.--(Cheers.) With regard to WI
motion which the Hon. Gentleman brought forward, he:
did not think that, in alluding to the case of MP!
Mitchel, he was justified in a statement that he made, tel
the effect that the sheriff was an officer appointed bll
the Crown. Technically, it might be said that he wssll
but, in fact, he was selected out of three persons!
named by the Chief Justice. Evidently, that was te'i
tally different from his being an officer selected by tbel
Crown. With regard to the conduct of the sheriffs
his (Lord J. Russell's) belief, the sheriff performed bP}
duty conscientiously. But the Hon. Gentleman 11011!
that it was owing to leaving out of the list the names 0
a great number of Catholics, and to challenging.Sbil
names of certain persons who were placed on the jt4
list, It was asked also whether it was intended to
vent Catholics and repealers from acting as jurymen. kge
would answer—neither one nor the other was intended'
to be omitted. Catholics were equally. qualified
Protestants to act as jurors on general questions, and !,
man's being a repealer did not disqualify him ; but the,
question was with regard to the offence of a person wbel
declared openly that Ireland ought to be separated fross
England ; that she should be a separate republic ; thle,
,
the Queen ought to be deposed from her authority eel
title ; and that such a measure should be accomplished
immediately. The question was with regard to the
sons to be selected to act as jurors in such a case, whet!e!
or not they were persons who would do their duty it`
trying it—in fact whether they were likely to give a rev'
diet according to the evidence. If the Attorney-GO!:
ral thought that there were any persons on the jury
lel"
were not likely to give a verdict according to the caw
deuce, and who were likely to give a verdict against tis:
evidence, he was perfectly warranted in challenging stet
persons. As to the question whether that discretiee
was properly used, that was a matter which neither Ii
nor the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland could enter into. It
they could not form any judgment as to the charactsd
of particular individuals; but it was clear that tboal
who published opinions in favour of the offender 'Weil
not fit persons to try his ease.—(Hear, hear.) Sue'
was the case with regard to those who were left out
_,,
that jury. The sheriff was responsible for his condo.'
but, with respect to the Attorney-General, ho wan hire;
self a Roman Catholic, and he did not think that
was to be inferred that he would by any act of his die:,
qualify himself from acting as a juror under similt
circumstances. These were the observations which
had to make with regard to what the Hon. Gentlaul
said in reference to Mr. Mitchel's trial. He did
hear him state anything particular with regard to the
other trials. He had only then finally to say that
could not agree, in the present situation of public affair'
to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. He did not thind
that the House would be disposed to think that it won",
be advantageous to enter into an inquiry on this aubje!:
but, in conclusion, he would state generally, that al
was the utmost desire on the part of the Governmt
the Lord-Lieutenant, and the Attorney-General to gin
fair trials.
The motion was then put and negatived without
division.
The House then went into a Committee of SuPPII
on the

ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. F. MAULE said, that having so fully on a MO
occasion stated the particulars of the votes for the ail;
he should now do no more,than simply place in the Wino
of the Chairman the list of the votes
_required for i'
department.
A vote of 1,336,8801. was then asked for to defray tille
expenses of her Majesty's land forces of Great Britain n
Ireland, being part of a sum of 3,836,8801., 2,500,01 v
of which had been already voted.
Sir D. L. EVANS called attention to a petition whil,
he had recently presented, complaining of some disr
vantage under which retired officers laboured, in Cel
queue:: of their not being allowed to advance in rank t
same as those on active service.
Mr. F. MAULE said this had always been the. 0196 d
and he had heard no previous complaint on the metlri,
It might be a question how far it was advisable to
sit
vance these officers in the way pointed out, though,.,
might be done without any additional expense. To
the
officers themselves he thought it mattered little. Oflr
subject of the dockyard battalions, to which the 134.
and Gallant Gentleman had also alluded, he remark
that they were a most efficient branch of the service,,vo
the officers would not take rank as officers of the 101;
but only as volunteer officers, and after officers of ;
same rank. Hence he thought there would be no di
culty in the two corps acting together.
Sir D. L. EVANS said the Peninsular medals weribo
not yet issued. He hoped that some order would
made by Government which should permanently res
late the issue of medals to the army. The East In. if
Company haring issued medals to the officers in the,
service, it became desirable that the same should be d 0
in the army generally.
of
Mr. B. OSBORNE considered that the treatment,o
the whole army, especially the officers of the line, ;,,i
regard to decorations, bad been most infansous. .1;1
reason was, neither the Government nor the House bo
any control over the Commander-in-Chief of the 14010
Guards. The latter required thoroughly cleansing 0,,,
and he would submit a motion on the subject. At r
sent a meritorious officer had not the slightest ch,gfifes
of notice from the Horse Guards. The recent 101,1,0
war had been carried wholly through, so far as yes
brunt of the contest was concerned, by three
,k,
four officers, who were thanked in every dispo.ls,
and that was all. Tho names of Colonel Sornel74
Captain Hogg, and Captain Bissett, occurred in Op
dispatch ; but they had received no promotion. Uttio
the present system the Under. Secretary of the C010h,,,
was actually Secretary-at-War, as far as the colovoi
were concerned, for ho had the disposal of the whole d
the forces there. Col. Somerset had received et,l,
flattering testimonial of gratitude from Major-uo
Smith, the Governor of the Cape; and that was shot,
had ever received; while such men as Sir H. Bule.til
Mr. Trevellyan, and Mr. Chadwick, men of great Mt
no doubt, were made C.B.'s, and one of them was in I'"e
recent of 2,5001. a year.—(Hear, hear.) Capt. 110,1,
with his native levies of Hottentots, levied at great f;;
vate expenses of his own, bad been mainly instrumee;
in concluding the war. This was stated in dispatch p
he was thanked by Sir H. Pottinger and Sir P. 111_5,
land, and yet, when he came home to the Horse Gus
he was told there was neither promotion nor decon
for him.—(Hear.) Capt Bissett was thrown aside is
the same way; the reason being that the manner d
which that war was originally carried on was not /ego
convenient for the Horse Guards to recollect. '1
men ought at least to be made unattached majors, 'it 0
receive the decoration of C.B. In the Chinese
Iftirs'S
services of Capt. Brereton and Gen. D'Aguilar had 1,,0f
similarly neglected. He knew the Secretarpet'ti
had no power in this case, but he hoped these retail'
would be listened to in the proper quarter.
Mr. F. MA ULE said that, so far as he had seen of Ir.
Horse Guards, he believed that great fairness was eatal
bited in their management. In this Kafir war the Poi
person said to be neglected was Colonel Somersettoil,
intimate connexion of the person who was said to be
powerful at the Horse Guards.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. OSBORNE—I don't believe he is.
Mr. F. MAULE said that any apparent neglect of
etibr°
officers in the Kafir war might arise from the whole Al
cumstances not yet being taken into consideration: 10,
all events, it appeared the neglect, if neglect there "ots
was not confined to those of low rank. As to CePhice
Hogg, he did not hold the rank which brought the
within the scope of the decorations alluded to. Cf be
question of the general management of the er';' /be
would not enter into details, as it was now under
consideration of a Committee. '0 t"
Mr. HUME said that not one of the reforms I ears
army recommended by a Commission that sat nilleiLioot
ago had been carried out, although that CoaTl.,inet,
which comprised four members of the present vlons
amongst others, th,letntheorHofrosuerGteuenardrsecsohnioumbeinbcleepis%de
,
had made thine,
on the same footing as the navy. This had been
_ldier 5
case, although the Duke of Wellington, the sr. one
friend, filled the office of Commander-in-Cbie ne re-
great defect of our system was that there wer'ne Inv
e to
wards for civilians for distinguished service!,
derstood the Committee on the estimates had ref the duty
make any recommendation as to the army 1. carryin4
would therefore devolve on the Governineht.:ly
out the reforms so long needed. He enttraesk was of
with the Secretary-at-War in thinking till"
little consequence to military men.
'3 ineligib
• • WY
Mr. OSBORNE said that Captain Hogg
ed by makiyg
to decoration might easily have been retne:.,.
13► although a
him a
_major, In the ease of. Major Pears
._ „woo,
MO Or, no deuorativa was Oyez Xte 10" r " (/‘
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