The Sun.
London, England, 1846-02-06 00:00:00

that the proper field for the exercise of charity '
was outside the walls of the workhouse. There would
be ample opportunity afforded for the performance
of the duties of Christianity in a silent and unosten-
tatious manner, even though these institutions did exist.
He did not think it right that the country should be
covered with the sick, the maimed, and the destitute ;
and for that reason he considered these asylums were
perfectly necessary. In a country like Ireland, where
the sustenance of the people was chiefly dependant upon
manual labour, and where the relation between the em-
ployer and the workman was only of a temporary nature,
he admitted the full force of the argument, that the
idle should be supported by the industrious. He thought
that true policy, as well as humanity, would suggest that
a provision should be wade for the sick, poor, and desti-
tute of Ireland, as well as for those of England. And
the only question now for their Lordships to consider
was, which was the best mode of affording that relief,
and most consistent with the interests of the community.
Happily the case of England was a warning against in-
flicting upon the Irish people. a system calculated
to demoralise the people of that country.
It had been urged against the poor-law that no state of
destitution would dispose a man to resort to the work-
house; and on the other hand, it had been observed,
that no extent of workhouse accommodation would be
sufficient for the numbers that would demand admission.
Both those objections had certainly been met by expe-
rience. Experience had always shown that the wot khouse
test of aestitution was as available in Ireland as it was
in England. He could state from his own observation,
that the workhouse did afford to the infirm, the aged,
and the destitute, a comfortable asylum. The pauper
children were trained and educated in a manner to fit
them for an after-life of usefulness, and the destitute
able-bodied poor found the means of refuge in the time
of their distress. He only regretted that, as it had been
found necessary to have a central beard of Poor-law
Commissioners in Ireland as in England, they had not
obtained the confidence of the Irish people. Great allow-
ances should be made for the gentlemen who were sent
over to Ireland to introduce and to administer
a law such as the poor-law, when it was considered
that, as Englishmen, they were wholly unacquainted
with the people of that country. With respect
to the difficulty of collecting rates in Ireland,
their Lordships would remember that the reports laid
on the table of that House showed that the collection
of those rates was frequently resisted. This difficulty
was owing to the fact of the rate-payers having been
disappointed in their expectations of the effect of the
law. 'I hey were led to believe that a oor-law would
remove the miserable objects who crowded the streets
and highways, but the contrary was the result. At
this moment Ireland pie sented as much misery as before
the introduction of the poor-laws ; and, indeed, the
objects which presented themselves to excite the feel-
ings of the charitable were in many instances more
degrading to the country than they were fur many
years before anything like a poor-law existed.—(Hear.)
The system of rating land its Ireland for the poor-rates
was, he thought, greatly to be deplored, but only one
class of men had had the courage to complain of it, and
that class, being poor clergymen of the Established
Church, were, in his opinion, very seriously injured by
the system. The value of the land, when rated for
paiish tithes, was always under estimated, but the land-
loftl took care to increase it when his doing so tended
to relieve him from a portion of the poor-rates. lie
hoped, however, before long to see the carriers which
had been raised up between the landowners and their
tenants on account of difference of creeds would be
broken down, and that no more of those scenes of
bloodshed and violence which disgraced' the country
would occur. He hoped the proprietors of property
would do all in their power to alleviate the
sufferings of the people of that country. There was
another point to which he wished to call their attention.
It was this—that persons of the Protestant religion, who
were compelled to go into the unions, were molested by
the other inmates on account of their faith—that fre-
quently there were no Protestant clergymen in them,
and that many of the children of Protestant parents
were handed over to the tuition of those who professed
the Catholic religion, without any reference to those
who alone should exercise parental control over them.
The Noble Lord then read a statement from a Protestant
clergyman, setting forth that numbers of children were
thus removed, and calling on the Protes-
tant religion to put an end to such pracices.
In South Dublin Union Workhouse there was an evil
existing, which he would bring under their Lordships'
notice—he alluded to the classification of the inmates
by their religions. Roman Catholics were separated
from Protestants. He could not consider a more lament-
able consequence could possibly arise, than the separa-
tion which exists in this otherwise well conducted asy-
lum. He considered it necessary, that in all workhouses
where there was a Catholic chapel, that there should be
also a Protestant chapel. He considered the duty of the
guardians ought to be more defined than at present. The
Noble Lord concluded by moving the appointment of a
Select Committee to inquire into the operation of the
Ist and 2d of Vic., cap. 16, and the other laws relating
to the relief of the destitute poor in Ireland ; and also
to inquire into the operation of the medical charities in
Ireland, which are supported wholly or partially by
grants from the county cess.
Lord BROUGHAM said, the Noble Lord had made
an unfounded charge when he said his motion had not
been sufficiently attended to. Why he had himself been
listening to the Noble Earl for the last hour and three
quarters, and what was the motion after all ? Why he
had made an unopposed motion for the appointment of a
Committee, and was it likely that a motion for a Com-
mittee would draw their Lordships together in large
numbers ?—(Hear, hear.) And what had the Noble
Lord done in moving for the Committee ? Why, he bad
stated everything he intended to bring forward in the
Committee. Why the Noble Earl had defeated his ob-
ject in letting out there what he intended was to be
issued from the Committee. He would urge the Go-
vernment in the strongest words he could use to bring
forward those measures which were really necessary for
the peace of Ireland, which werealladed to in the Speech
from the throne.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped and trusted
that they would be brought forward at once, now they
had ample time and opportunity to discuss them, and he
was sure they would meet with full attention ; and he
ventured to say they would pus without opposition.
Every body seemed to be of opinion that these measures
were absolutely necessary, and he had merely risen to
say that he was quite confident they would pass without
any opposition, if framed as he had no doubt they would
be, in a spirit of wisdom and mercy.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he had not the
slightest objection to the appointment of the Committee,
or to the appointment of any other Committee for the
same purpose.

The motion was then agreed to, and the Committee
appointed.____

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill was brought up from the Commons,and read
a first time.

Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Thursday. Feb. 5.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock pre-
cisely.

Tire Sheriffs of London (Messrs. Chapman and
Laurie) presented petitions from the Lord Mayor,
Sheriffs, and Common Council, for certain alterations in
the corn-laws, and for the regulation of Billintsgate
market.

NEW MEMBER.
Mr. FREWEN took the oaths and his seat for East
Sussex, in the room of Mr. Darby, resigned.
NEW WRIT.
A new writ was moved for for the town of Bucking-
ham, in the room of Sir Thomas Fremantle, who has
accepted the office of Stewardship of the Chiltern
Hundreds.

RAILWAY BUSINESS.-
Mr. MASTERMAN presented a petition for leave to
bring in a Bill for making a railway from the West
India Docks to the Birmingham Railway.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN presented a petition for the Leicester
and Bridport Railway.
Lord COURTENAY presented a petition for the So-
merset and Southampton Railnsy.
Mr. BROTHERTON presented petitions for the Man-
chester and Chester, the Manchester and Leeds. the
Leeds and Rugby, the Dumblane, and the Leedt -Direct
Railways.
An Hort. MEMBER presented a petition in favour of
the Wolverhampton Railway.
Mr. OS WALD presented 9. petition in favour of the
Glasgow and Kilmarnock Railway.
Mr. FITZSTEPHEN FRENCH presented petitions
from several places in Ireland, praying that the Great
Munster Railway Bill might pass into law.
Sir JOHN YARDE BULLER brought up the report
of the Glasgow, Paisley, and Kilmarnock Railway, and
presented also several petitions for railways.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET brought up the
report of the Sub-Committee on Railways.
Mr. DUNCAN presented a petition in favour of the
Dundee and Perth Railway.
The Hon. MEMBER also presented a petition in
favour of the Dundee and Arbroath Railway.
Mr. ASTELL presented a petition in favour of the
Direct Manchester Railway.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition against the
Direct London and Portsmouth Railway.
THE DIRECT MANCHESTER AND SOUTH-
AMPTON RAILWAY,
Mr. HOPE presented a petition from the Town Coun-
cil of Southampton in favour of the Direct Manchester
and Southampton Railway. The petitioners, he stated,
prayed that the House might order the petition to be re-
ferred to the consideration of the Railway Committees.
Mr. GISBORNE, in rising to move for a Committee
to inquire into the conduct of 'certain parties who had
fraudulently inserted a sheet in a petition which referred
to this railway, while it was in the offices of the Go-
vernment, said that he did not intend persisting in his
motion, inasmuch as the parties offending had made a
sufficient apology and explanation. He had much plea-
sure in being able to do this ; for had not the re-
quired explanation been given he should cer-
tainly have called upon the House to visit the
interpolation with the most severe condemnation.
He in consequence thought the House might waive the
matter, feeling the fullest confidence, now that it was in
their bends that all the necessary steps would be taken
to prevent a recurrence of the kind.
The SPEAKER said that the petition msy be taken
before the Committee, provided the sheet which was added
to it after its presentation to that House was withdrawn.
In reply to a remark from Mr. H. JOHNSTON,
Mr. GISBORNE said he did not bring any charge
against any person whatever.
Mr. F. FRENCH said he could call the attention of
the House to a case very nearly similar, but that
it would not be necessary for him to do
so, as he presumed the matter in question
would be referred to a Select Committee.
It appeared that these petitions were interpolated, and
that words were subsequently inserted in them. In
some places these words were written in ink, and in
other places in pencil. After the petitions were pre-

seated to the House it turned out that the additions
were made without the knowledge of some of the parties
who signed them. He (Mr. French) thought it right to
cull the attention of the House to this subject, as it was
nearly similar to that which had been just detailed by
the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gisborne).
The order was then discharged.
Mr. BLEWITT presented a petition against the corn-
laws, but from what
_place could not be ascertained in
the gallery.

TEN HOURS' BILL
. Mr. CHRISTIE presented a petition in favour of the
Ten Hours' Bill.
SMELTERS OF LEAD.
Mr. THORNLEY presented a petition from the smelt-
ers of lead on the banks of the river Dee (q we under-
stood), praying for certain alterations in the law affect-
ing their trade.

CORN LAWS.
Mr. BANKES presented petitions from Dorchester,
and a place in Dorsetshire, praying for a continuation
of the laws protectin—

g corn.
ROMAN CATHOLIC LAWS.
Mr. WATSON gave notice of his intention to bring
in a Bill to modify the laws affecting Roman Catholics-
CORN-LAWS.
Mr. ESCOTT presented a petition from an indillo.°
dual, a large landed proprietor, praying for the ressf,::
of the measures affecting the corn-laws proposed by
Robert Peel.
EDUCATION IN WALES.
Mr. WILLIAMS gave notice that on the 19th be
should move that a humble address be presented to her
Majesty, praying her Majesty to direct that en
should be made into the present state of education 2.—
\Vales.

JUVENILE OFFENDERS.
Mr. LIDDELL gave notice that to-morrow he should
f
put a question to the Right Hon. Baronet the Secrete,
State for the Home Department, as to whether Govern'
ment intended to take any steps towards improving tee
condition of juvenile offenders.
POOR 14A.TES -AND MEDICAL RELIES 0
Mr. WODEHOUSE gave notice that he would ruev
for a return connected with the question of P°°r,
11.9
rates and medical relief hi unions. That return be prebound to say had been prepared with great etie
and expedition by the Poor-law Commissioners.
would wish to put two questions to the Right Pee;
Bart. at the head of the Government, if he would all?
him to do so. One of the questions was—whether theillii;
tended to take into consideration the expediency of
ing the whole sum of medical relief on the same footing
'The Poor-law Commissioners had intimated that the''
in the agricultural parts of the country, gave -
less liberal salary to that class of officers
they did in the manufacturing districts. Now 1."3
these parts of the country were brought an
t°
unhappy collision, it seemed fit that a question of thii in-
teresting character should be definitely settled. 1"
other question which he would put referred to the Poor-
rates, and local taxation generally. It had more inuee"
diate reference to a person with whom the Right HI
Baronet was intimately acquainted ; that gentleman
edited works in the Spanish, German, French, and Ira'
lien languages--(Laughter)—he meant Mr. Rowbothalo;
He had directed his attention in an especial he (hd
manorto.the consideration of the several burdens which
Wodehouse) had referred. Now the question he wise'
to ask was, whether the Right Hon. Baronet had n°,
some time employed that gentleman as a teacher in
minor branches of mathematics ?—(Loud laughter.)
Sir R. PEEL said that, in answer to the first questil
put to him by the Hon. Member, he had to state the
her Majesty's Government, in proposing that the 016-
ries of medical officers should be borne by tile
Treasury, felt very anxious to establish a cheque
any system of improvident expenditure under this bee
He wished also that it should be a subject of annual re'
vision in Parliament. 'A part of it would fall upon the
Consolidated Fund, Ana it would be partly local. lb;
operation of that would prevent undue expenditure, ae
would secure better and more efficient medical Atte°d.
once.
Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that he should
the attention of the House to-morrow to the state
of disease and famine in Ireland. He wag aware that
there were already persons in Dublin making incluir'e l 0
on all matters relating to this subject, but he wished I
to come under the attention of the House.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he had received from 6111
to time several communications from the Lord-Lieutenant
of Ireland on this subject.
Mr. O'CONNELL. asked if the Right Hon. Baronet
would bring the communication under the notice of the
House ?

Sir J. GRAHAM said that if the Hon. Gentles"
:
would postpone his request until to-morrow, Seine'
further information could be given on the subject.
HARBOUR DUTIES.
Dr. BOWRING moved for a return of the liart,ol°
Duties. He said that these returns had been ordeold to
be laid on the table of the House on the 16th of AP
last. It was found that they were very imperfect, 111,
they were withdrawn. An order was then issued tnss
they should be returned in a complete state on the 131 h
of July. Since that time nothing had been heard on toe
subject. He would also take that opportunity of aski.,,,slgd
question of which he had already given notice. 1-14
the Right Hon. Baronet received any communication
from the Spanish Government notifying their intention
to use any inimical measures to the commerce of Eng:
laud, in consequence of the unfavourable position thest
sugar held in our tariff, and had any instruction bet
given to the Spanish colonies which would prevent sni
indirect communication between them and British
vessels?
Sir R. PEEL said he had received no communication
from the Spanish Government indicating any intention=
of the kind intimated by the Hon. Gentleman; on the
contrary, the tone adopted by the Spanish Governineut
was most satisfactory.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged that the Right Hon:
Baronet would inform him whether the Government WI
had any further correspondence with the Spanish 00-
ernor on the subject of

CUBA SUGAR.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that he had to state that
there had been a further correspondence, which he won`
on a future day bring before the House, but that at the
present moment there would be some inconvenience in
discussing the question.
Mr. WODEHOUSE moved for a return of the
0,
amount of money levied in the years 1813, 1824, 1;
1834, in the shape of poor-rates, showing the ratio if
bore to the population, and distinguishing the Ammon'
levied on landed property.
THE BRAZILIAN PIRATES.
Mr. HUTT wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite whether he cou'd lay upon the table of the
House the ground upon which the Judges of the land
formed their decision that the Brazilian pirates were
not legally convicted ? lie also wished to knevi
whether it was the intention of the Government to p_re;
pose the repeal of the Brazilian Slave Trade Act pas'''.
last session ?
Sir. J. GRAHAM—The Hon. Gentleman and the
House is aware that in cases of felony there is no aPPelw-
by law provided to a court of error; but that the pro,:
rice is, that the judge, entertaining any doubt as to the
legality of the conviction, grants a respite until be !lo-
an opportunity of consulting his learned brethren--the
other judges. That consultation is not usually in openk
court, but is held in private, and after consultation, t
ovnion that the verdict cannot stand, is communicate('
verbally by the judge who presided at the trial to the
Secretary of State. The judge accordingly advises bet.
Majesty's Government to recommend to her Majesty th°
propriety of granting a pardon. In the case, however, t°
which the Hon. Gentleman has referred an argument Was
heard in the Exchequer Chamber, and in all other re-
spects the ordinary practice was observed. I had an in-
terview with Mr. Baron Platt, and by him I was
advise'
to recommend to her Majesty to grant a pardon. Jul'.
cially, therefore, the legal grounds upon which the
Judges arrived at their decision, were not brought be-
fore me, and I cro:inot inform the Hon. Gentleman or the
House what those grounds were. In answer to the other
question put to me by the Hon. Gentleman, I beg to 5%
that tilere is no intention on the
par
Quvernment to repeal any part of
the
of'BrhazeriliManajessitayve
I'rade Act.
Sir R. PEEL.—The Honourable Member for Man-
chester has given notice of a motion for the production
of correspondence—in continuatition of the corresP°°.
denco already laid before the House—relating to the
conduct of the Brazils as to the convention of 1826, and
as to the slave trade. I hope the Hon. Gentleman "
• not press his motion. The last dispatch from L°rd,
Aberdeen to the Brazilian Government concluded With
the expression of a desire that the Brazils would enter
into such a convention as would preclude the necessity
of her Majesty's Government acting upon the severre
measures contained in the Act of last session. There 13
sail some communication going on upon that subject, 5,11
I am not without hope of a treaty being concluded which
will enable U 3 to forego the power placed in our hands
by the Act of last session. Under these circumstance',
the Hon. Gentleman will, I am sure, feel the propriety o :
not pressing his motion at present.
SIR ROBERT PEEL'S POLICY.
In answer to a question from Mr. PATTISON,
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the reduction con!"
not take place on seeds until the month of June net.':
The reduction would take place from that day, in e,°,o.
fortuity with the resolution come to by her Majesty's Lx
verernent.

Mr. ELLIS said that he had occasion to make epee
sentationa to his constituency on the subject of the
changes proposed to be introduced by the Right 11°11*
Baronet, and he could state, that after the manifestation
of some anxiety, which was perhaps not unnatural, they
generally concurred in the measure which the Right .110e°
Gentleman proposed to bring forward. At the same thT
they sent a memorial praying that the reduction wig"
not take place till the Ist July.
Sir R. PEEL doubted whether the suggested alterritiodh
would be productive of any advantage. Ile was On
however, that the constituency of the lion. Gentleman
evinced a concurrence in the contemplated reductions,
and such a readine*entitled them to great credit. d
Sir 1.1. PEEL, iii reply to a question from 1-44)1,.
John Russell, said that he proposed the reduction
.0
corn, should take place immediately after the resolution
u
was passed and reported.
Mr. HUTT wished to ask the Right Honourable Gen_
t.lei,;a,n (the Home Secretary) whether it was the inters'
tree of Government to bring in a Bill to improve tii_r
measure passed last year, affecting the naturalisation 0
foreigners.'
Sir JAMES GRAHAM had no difficulty in etatiP-g-
-that there was no such intention entertained by the
wren-tent. Very many applications lead been inane under 0
the late measure, and it had been found to work we'
satisfactorily.

IRISH SPIRIT DUTIES.
Sir 11. W. BARRON wished to ask the Right
Baronet opposite whether any alteration was to be fir__
posNI by which the landed interest in Ireland would
the benefit of the British market for Irish spirits?
Ilact seen
ha
reason he asked the question was, because
„,„$
that it was the intention of the Goverpl!t7