The Sun.
London, England, 1848-05-09 00:00:00

CROWN LANDS.

Mr. G. A. HAMILTON moved for a copy of reports
and papers relating to the Crown lands of Ball)kilcline,
county Roscommon, Ireland (in continuation of Parlia-
mentary paper No. 457, of session 1847); and return of
law costs which have been furnished as incurred or paid
by the Commissioners of her Majesty's Woods and
Forests in the management of the Crown estate situated
in the parish of Kinglass, county Roscommon, Ireland
(in continuation of same paper) —Agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. AP GREGOR leave of absence
was given to the Lord Provost of
.Glasgow till the 21st
of May, on urgent private business.
PRINTING PETITIONS.

Mr. URQUHART moved that the petition of Charles
Frederick Ellerman (presented May 6), be printed with
the votes.
Mr. THORNELY said the petition would come
before the Select Committee on Petitions, and no doubt
it would be ordered to be printed.
Mr. URQUHART said that under those circum-
stances be would withdraw the motion.—Motion accord-
ingly withdrawn.
Mr. E WART presented a petition from Dumfries in
favour of the Scottish Church Sites Bill.
SANITARY CONDITION OF THE METRO-
POLIS—WESTMINSTER.

Sir H. WILLOUGIIBY said he had been informed
that in the immediate vicinity of Westminster Abbey,
and, therefore, not far from the place in which they had
assembled, that a malignant description of fever, not
unlike typhus, had broken out, which was stated
to be traceable, in some degree, to the che-
mical experiments that had recently been made
on the drains in the neighbourhood, in which
operation too great reliance had been placed
upon the process of deodorizing the poisonous discharge
which eliminated from the drains. He had also been
informed that traps had been opened into sewers in other
parts of the metropolis, which had been the means of al-
lowing noxious vapour to escape, to the serious detriment
of the health, if not the lives of the inhabitants of the
locality. He had said that too much reliance was
PL,c(-d in the principle which recently obtained so much
favour namely, clarifying or deoderizing feted matter.
Why, not long ago an engineer, who was examined
before a Committee of the House, stated that he could
clarify and deodorise a quantity of foul water. He did
a
°. and the water appeared perfectly free from all ob-
noxious matter bet when one of the gentleman present
—a Gallant Admiral—drank a glass it instantly acted as
an emetic.—(ltoars of laughter,) He wished to know
Lord MORPETH
if the Noble Lord could give him any information on
of fever prevailed in the
the subject.
no sewer in the locality replied that there was some truth in
he did not think it could had
the statements of his a. Friend. A considerable amount
redeincts of the Abbey; but, as
been opened since February,
to the warm state of the
in, that noisome smells had traced t o that, but was owing
weather. He had been informed,
since the hot weather had set
prevailed in other parts of the metropolis. In the pre-
cinctseno
t b
t ,
able
e fearedto the
tdhreainfeavgeer was
t o de
any u -
o i e o t. ofnePawas
operation being carried on in connexion
drainage in the neighbourhood. Dr. iichell, whowith the
was the medical attendant of the school in
West-
minster could not trace fever to any operation of h
t
kind. Recently- 6,535 cesspools had been emptied in the
metropolis, and he was told not only that the sanitary
condition of the districts in which this had been done had
but that the inhabitants had expressed
improved, great
gratitude.—(Hear.)
Mr. BANKES inquired when the Noble Lord pro-
posedi
to intro duce his Bill to
n im
teprove the s )Hilary
tms
con-
dition of London and We
Lord MORPETH replied that he could not name a

day, but that he should introduce it as soon as his leisure
and opportunities enabled him to do so.
PUBLIC EXPENDI PURE.

Mr. HUME moved for returns with respect to the
public expenditure in connexion with the navy and
ordnance.

BRITISH MANUFACTURES.-THE DRAWING-
ROOM.

Lord G. BENTINCK rose to put a question which
might either be styled a Protectionist or free-trade one,
but which at the present moment was one of the deepest
importance. Ho need not remind the House that
an announcement had recently gone forth of a desire on
the part of her Majesty—(Cheers)—that the ladies
who intend to be present at the drawing rooms should
appear, under the present depression of commerce and of
trade, in no attire—(Roars of laughter)—except the—
(Laughter)—except that which was the produce of British
industry.—(Cheers.) No doubt her Majesty's heart`
was breaking at the distress that prevailed around her—
at the distress which was overwhelming the weavers
of Spitalfields, the ribbon manufacturers of Coventry,
and the lace and silk manufacturers of Nottingham,
whilst hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of
goods were constantly entering our ports from
Frunce and other • countries, driving out of the
markets the produce of her own people.—
In the port of London alone silk goods of foreign manu-
facture had
.been imported exceeeding the value of
400,0001.; which was sufficient to give employment to
31,000 weavers.—(Hear.) Foreign lace to the value
of 20,0001., and needlework. to the value of 20,0001.
had also been imported; which two amounts were suffi •
cientt
ofthisogive employment to 40,000 of the needlework-
women coountry. Here had also been imported
7,000 dozen of boots and shoes, which would have given
employment to 1,200 workmen in England; and he would
ask the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) whether he had come
to rescue the country from the measures of that party
which his Noble Friend had so well descscribed as the phi-
losophers of the country; or whether the recommendation
to appear in British attire emanated from her Majesty,who
had always lived in the heart and the affections of her
He would ask whether it was an emanation
own heart, and whether it was intended to include
gopfeenoliptellerem'e as well as ladies, because he considered they
were bound equally on the grounds of gallantry and
loyalty to carry out that recommendation? Perhaps the
Noble Lord had advised her Majesty to issue that re-
commendatioe, and if so he wished to know whether it
was to be held as indicative of a change of opinion in
her Majesty's Government ?—(Laughter and cheers)—
that they were now going to retrace that course in which
they had gone so far, and by which they had brought
the country into its present state of distress?
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Noble Lord had certainly
made a speech—(Laughter)—but with regard to the
question of which he had given notice, and which he had
so involved by his speech, he understood it to be, whether
her Majesty had given commands to the ladies of
England that they should be attired in dresses exclu-
sively of British produce and manufacture. Certainly it
was true that her Majesty had given commands that the
Court should appear in dresses of British manufacture,
but he believed that there was nothing new in such an
erder.—(Hear, hear.) In former reigns such orders had
been issued for the purpose of benefiting persons en-
gaged in the production of manufactures. The Noble
Lord then went on to ask whether the advisers
of the Crown had changed their opinions
with regard to the admission of foreign manu-
factures, and whether the order of her Majesty
was to be looked upon as indicative of such a change
of opinion. With regard to that, ho considered
that the point immediately in question was in
the confidence of the Lord Chamberlain ; but
he begged to say that he had offered no advice
to her Majesty. With regard to the foreign article
which had been introeuced, he was of opinion that
a great quantity of silk manufactures did not come
through the Custom-house, but was smuggled into this
country. He believed that the introduction of foriegn
manufactures tended greatly to improve the manufac-
tures of this country ; and in the next place he
believed that though a class of persons found
that distress ensued from the introduction of
foreign goods, yet still the introduction of such goods
stimulated the production of our English manufacturers,
and led to the exportation of a greater quantity of Bri-
tish goods, in exchange for these imported from foreign
countries.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BRIGHT would not attach any undue import-
ance to the recommendation of her Majesty, but he
thought that the Government and the House should not
be too anxious to do anything that would lead to
the supposition among the working classes in this
country, that they would derime benefit from the ex-
clusion of the manufactures of other countries.—(Hear,
hear.) The working classes of France had driven
out from that country some hundreds of the workmen
of this; and he could see very little difference between
that and her Majesty commanding the wearing of
articles of English manufacture at the Drawing-room.—
(Cries of " No, no.") There could be no objection to
ladies forming themselves into associations to wear only
English manufactures, but he had the greatest objection
to the Government recommending the Queen to adopt
a course that was calculated to deceive the working
classes of this country.
Sir DE LACEY EVANS would take that opportu-
nity of expressing a hope that the Government of the
country would adopt some course to represent
the claims of the English work-people who had been
suddenly expelled from France, to the French authori-
ties, in order that something might be done for them.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the subject had
been represented to the French authorities, and he
could assure the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman that it
had been received in the most humane manner. What
course was intended to be adopted he could not say, but
he had no doubt the subject would meet with the consi-
deration it deserved.

Mr. BANKS regretted that the order had not been
issued earlier, believing now that it would have but little
effect. However, if auy Member of that House would
move an address to her Majesty, thanking her for the
order she had made, he would most heartily second it.
Mr. HUME thought the adoption of such a course
would be moat mischievous, as it would be calcu-
lated to create ill-will among nations. He was
afraid that the recommendation showed that the Lord
Chamberlain was a Conservative, and not a political
economist.—(A laugh.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE, as the representative of the
sense of the poor people who had been alluded to in the
course of the discussion, would be wanting in his
duty if he did not rise and express his
gratitude to her Majesty for the kindness
she had exhibited ;in the order. The distress
of the district which he represented was great
beyond measure, men, women, and children were daily
growing lean in their struggles for a bare existence,
while others rare absolutely dying of famine, and what-
ever political economists might say, he could assure the
House that this kindness of her Majesty had sank deeply
into the hearts of the people.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel THOMPSON said—Sir, it is clear that
there are other parties to this question, who
have not yet been mentioned. My constituents of Brad-
ford, Sir, are pantaloon and waistcoat piece manufac-
turers for foreign consumption, and they say and believe
that these waistcoat pieces and pantaloons are virtually
trucked against the ladies' peticoats from France,
If that be the case, then is there any charity—is
there any humanity----is their any justice—is there any
policy—is there any common sense in this
order in representing, in recommending hostilities to
wards one portion of the manufacturing classes of the
country at the expense of another, and the recommen-
dation coming too from such a quarter, I am sure no
ono wishes to speak without the utmost affection
and reverence.—(Hear, hear.) This, Sir, must have
been the doing of some Count Polonious—(Laughter)—
or of some Noble Lord who fills the responsible office of
black or white stick in waiting, but at all events it is not
the act of any lady. I have too great confidence in the
ladies to fancy they have any hand in it. No, I believe
the ladies would have been wiser ; for there is not a
girl in England that wears a pair of French gloves
that does not know that the produce of Bri-
tish industry has purchased them.—(Loud cheers.)
With respect to the question of distress there
is enough of it in Bradford. Privations are suffered
there of the most terrtble description. I have seen in-
stances of it with my own eyes; but is no privations or
distress in Birmingham ? I asked two of the Members
for Birmingham yesterday whether they had ever heard
of anything being manufactured in Birmingham
for foreign consumption. They said often; and I
believe a large proportion of the manufactures of
Birmingham were of that kind which it is now
pureinnc'e
the consumption
enceto
put
odfoaunbt in
attempt to secure
of one class of English manufacturers at the
downpr proposed. sbe yd
means n o
expense of another, whose business it is to make
consumption.—(Hear.) Really,
then, I think that sufficient attention has not been paid
articles for foreign
to this matter, or no one could ever have thought of
putting down one-half of the manufactures of the coun-
try to allow the other half to live. (Hear, hear.)
ds from Mr.ROBINSON,CoIoneI SIBTHORP asked when the Budget would
be brought forward?
After a few wet. RO
gave it as his opinion that the
traraaMdneur.ftahecattinl
u
e of
house° thet)lJ R
country
imagined.SSELL did not consider this order
was of so much importance as some Hon. Members
wished to attach to it. It certainly was not issued
upon the advice of Government, nor could it be viewed
1r
is
S'
Ti
E suffered more from free-
the
Lord JOHN R
(LEFT SITTING.)
as a retaliation upon the French people.—(Hear, hear.)

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, Mays.
PETITIONS.

Lord BEAUMONT presented several petitions
from various places in favour of the Jewish Disabili-
ties Removal Bill.

The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S presented a peti-
tion from the students of Lampeter College in
favour of the Jewish Disabilities Removal Bill.

Lord KINN AIRD presented several petitions from
various places to the same effect.

The Bishop of WINCHESTER presented several
petitions against the Jewish Disabilities Removal Bill.

AFFAIRS OF SPAIN.

s-- Lord STANLEY said he must detain their Lordships
for a short time whilst he referred to the subject of dis-
cussion on Friday night last. Her Majesty's Ministers
had since laid on the table of their Lordships' House
the correspondence to which he then referred with re-
ference to Spain. He had no intention of submitting a
motion on the subject, but, having perused that corre-
spondence, he could not refrain from stating the im-
pression which it had produced on his mind. The Noble
Marquis (Lansdowne) seemed to have been labouring
under a singular error the other day in attributing the
publication of the letter from the Secretary of Foreign
Affairs to Mr. Bulwer to a French newspaper, and in
stating that he did not know how that paper got bold of
the document, a most important part of which it had sup-
pressed. Now, it appeared from the statement of that
newspaper itself that the first time it got into its columns
was the 24th of April; whilst the Duke of Sotomayor had
complained of its appearing in a Spanish paper on the
10th of that month. Upon looking at the letter itself, as
it was now printed, he thought it had not been mutilated.
The communication of the Noble Viscount (Palmerston),
which commenced the correspondence, began by saying,
" I have to instruct you to recommend earnestly to the
Spanish Government, and to the Queen-Mother, if you
should have an opportunity of doing so, the adoption of
a legal and constitutional course," &c. Now, it ap-
peared to him, inasmuch as Mr. Bulwer could easily
have an opportunity of communicating to the Spanish
Government the Noble Viscount's dispatch, but might
not be able to do so to the Queen-Mother, that the
words " if you should have an opportunity of
doing so," applied exclusively to the latter, and had
no reference to the Spanish Government.—(Hear, hear.)
It appeared to him by this correspondence, first of all,
that there was a great difference of opinion between the
British Minister in Spain and the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs in this country; and secondly, that there was a
still wider difference between the sentiments of the
Noble Viscount and his colleagues. The reply of the
Duke of Sotomayor stated that he did not understand
what the letter meant by recommending the adoption of
a legal and constitutional course, because at the time it
was written an eineute had not taken place, and the
Spanish Ministers were following a strictly con-
stitutional mode of government. What was the
answer of Mr. Bulwer? He admitted the justice
of the observation: he acknowledged that the com-
munication of the Noble Viscount was made before the
Government had taken any step of an arbitrary cha-
racter, but said it was intended to refer to a state of
things which might arise. The Noble Viscount, how-
ever, had not said anything about a state of things
which might arise; he had given his instruction with
reference to the actual, and not the future, state of
things. Mr. Bulwer- was, however, obliged to admit to
the Duke of Sotomayor that his argument was good;
that the Noble Viscount had no reason for doing what
he had done at the time at which he did it; but the
opportunity had arisen, and he availed himself of it.
But a more important fact was disclosed, and one which
their Lordships and the country would require to have
a full explanation of. He meant the different view
taken by Members of the Government on this subject.—
(Hear, hear.) He had mistaken the Noble Marquis the
other night if he did not rest the whole of his case on
this fact : that the letter of Lord Palmerston was a
private letter to the British Minister at Madrid, and
ought not to have been shown ; and he stated ex-
plicitly that he lamented the course which Mr.
Bulwer had adopted. The leading Minister in the
House of Lords, stated that he "lamented " the course
pursued by a Minister of the Crown, and, by so saying,
he meant that such conduct was not justifiable, and ho
virtually passed his censure upon it. He (Lord Stanley)
expressed a doubt whether that letter had ever been
seen by the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) or the Noble
Earl (Grey). Why, at the time the Noble Marquis re-
ferred to it, on Friday night, he was not cognisant of
what he was about to lay on their Lordships' table; he
was not aware that the British Minister in Spain had,
upon the face of the documents now before their Lord-
ships, received the entire and cordial approval of Lord
Palmerston. The letter from Mr. Henry Lytton Bul-
wer was dated April the 7th, and there was another of
the 11th of the same month. On the 18th, and also on
the 20th, the Noble Viscount (Palmerston) had written
to Mr. Bulwer, and in both dispatches approved of his
conduct. In one he said, " Her Majesty's Government
likewise approved of the note which you addresfed OR
the 7th inst. to the Spanish Minister for Foreign
Affairs." Now he would leave it to the Noble Mar-
quis
to explain that extraordinary fact.—(Hear, hear.)
The letter of the 11th, from Mr. Bulwer, enclosed also
the dispatch from the Duke of Sotomayor; and the an-
swer again of Viscount Palmerston to that was a most
extraordinary production. He said, " I have received
your dispactches," and not " I approve of the course
you have adopted;" but " I have to instruct you
to state to the Duke of Sotomayor that her Majesty's
Government entirely approve of your representation of
the 7th inst., and of your note of the lath inst., and
thereby he took upon himself to throw upon her Ma-
jesty's Government the whole responsibility of the lan-
guage, tone, and manner of the correspondence. He
took a course in which he involved her Majesty's Go-
vernment in the entire responsibility of a most offensive
proceeding. But, in his attempt to place the correspon-
dence on a more amicable footing, he exhibited a degree
of Christian forbearance which would have been credi-
table in a private individual, but which was quite incon-
sistent with the representative of a great power.—(Hear,
hear.) What did he say? Having his dispatches re-
turned in a manner which one gentleman would not tole-
rate from another, he said, " Go and tell the Duke of
Setomayor that I entirely approve of the course you
have adopted; but her Majesty's Government are not at all
offended." Thus you exposed yourself to insult, you got
a kick, and then begged to say that you entirely ap-
proved of the course which induced it, and tell the person
at the same time that you were not the least offended
with him.—(Laughter.) It was a most absurd and lu-
dicrous anwer to as imprudent a step as he ever heard
of. The Noble Viscount went on to conclude the cor-
respondence by reminding the Minister for Foreign
Affairs, whom he was addressing, that in certain circum-
stances, unless Great Britain had interfered, he (that
Foreign Minister), instead of being the Minister of his
Sovereign, would have been a proscribed exile on a
foreign shore. This needed no comment. He wished
he could see a satisfactory issue to such a correspon-
dence. But he thought he should be excused for calling
attention to the subject—(Hear, hear)—and, above all,
that House and the country had a right to know whether
the conduct of Mr. Butner, in taking the step which he
had adopted, was considered by the Government to be
imprudent, if not indefensible; and whether the Noble
Viscount the Secretary for Foreign Affairs had not
taken upon himself, in the name of the Government, to
say that it was a proceeding which had their entire
approval .--( Hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, who spoke in a low
tone, and was most indistinctly heard, was understood to
say, that it was intended Mr. Bulwer should exercise his
own discretion on the subject. He did not believe he
had communicated the dispatch to a Spanish newspaper
before it was known to the Duke of Sotomayor. He
certainly regretted that it had been made to that distin-
guished individual ; but Mr. Bulwer, from his great
knowledge of the affairs of Spain, must have had reasons
for making the communication of an imperative charac-
ter. As to the approbation which had been signified of
Mr. Bulwer's conduct, it was necessary either to express
approval or disapproval of it ; and if the latter course
had been adopted he must have been recalled. That was
a course the Government were not prepared to adopt,
because they did not think it desirable to make this
matter a subject of permanent quarrel. They did
not, however, think fit to give a species of triumph
to the Duke of Sotomayor after the language which
he had used, and the answer was accordingly
sent to Mr. Bulwer to be communicated to the Spanish
Minister. From what had since taken place he knew
that all unpleasant feeling between the parties had been
removed.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had said
that the communication was made at a period when
arbitrary measures had not been taken ; but it was in-
tended to leave the matter to Mr. Bulwer's discretion,
with a view to prevent the adoption of such measures.—
(Hear, hear.) There must have been something to lead
his nib, Friend to suppose that the affairs of Spain
would take the course which he was anxious to prevent,
and therefore he was justified in the advice which he
tendered. That advice was given in a spirit of goodwill
to the Spanish Government, and from an anxious desire
that the peace of the country ensl the strength of the
Government might be maintained; and not from a wish
to interfere in the affairs of Spain in any other sense than
to promote the prosperity of that country. It was a
source of satisfaction to him to consider that an amicable
feeling had been restored ; Mr. Bulwer's rocal had not
been demanded ; and therefore he trusted their Lord-
ships would not think it necessary to revive a contro-
versy with respect to the merits of the proceeding.
The Earl of ABERDEEN did not think much ob-
servation necessary on the explanation of the Noble
Marquis. He did not, however, seem entirely to agree
an the course which had been adopted. He admitted
with him that it would have been most unjust to have
abandoned Mr. Bulwer, because he had certainly acted
according to the spirit of the instructions which he had
received.—(Hear, hear.) He was a most able servant
of the Crown, and he had no doubt that Mr. Bulwer
knew perfectly well what he was about when he made
the communication to the Duke of Sotomayor.—(Hear,
hear.) He appeared to have felt perfect confidence that
he should meet with the approbation of his Govern-
ment, and when the Noble Marquis said it was left to
his discretion se surely could not have read the com-
munication very carefully. If there had been a comma
between the words " Government" " and" in the
opening sentence of the letter it would have removed all
doubt as to the passage " If you shall have an oppor-
tunity of doing so " applying only to the Queen-
Mother.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Bulwer had no occasion to
seek an opportunity of communicating.with the Spanish
Government—it was his right to do so; but he had no
right to put himself in communication with the Queen-
Mother.--(Hear, hear.) That such was Mr. Bulwer's
idea was evident from his reply, in which he said, " In
conformity with your Lordship's instructions, I took
the opportunity of communicating to the Spanish Go-
vernment, &c." It was said that it was not desirable to
give an apparent triumph. to the Duke of Sotomayor by
withholding an expression of approbation from Mr..
Bulwer. That might do very well after the Noble Vis-

count had received the answer of the Spanish Minist( r,
but it so happened that the approbation was expressed
before that reply had been received.—(Hear, heur.) l its
was anxious to know how the renewal of friendly feeling
had been brought about, because he regarded the answer
of the Spanish Minister as a most serious affair. Ile
had had some experience in matters of that sort, but he
had never before heard of the dispatch of a British
Minister being returned as unfit to be received or re-
tained.—(Hear, hear.) It was the first time, he thought,
that a British Minister had been subjected to such in-
dignity.—(Hear, hear.) If it had not been for the
discussion in their Lordships' House Mr. Bulwer
might have had his approbation in his pocket, but
he would have met with the disapprobation of
the whole country ; hut now it would be seen,
if censure was due, that it attached to those who
adopted the step which led to such a communication being
made. Ile fully expected that the suggestion which
had been thrown out the other night by his Noble Friend
(Lord Stanley), as well as from something which he
knew to be going on at Madrid, would have been adopted.
He thought there would have been an explanation
Offered by the British Government, that they did not in-
teed to interfere in the internal affairs of Spain, and
then the effeesive communications on both sides would
be withdrawn. That would have been the proper
course ; but the whole matter was marked by such
frivolity as surprised him; and he was at a loss to know
how any Noble Lord, with the gravity of the matter before
him, could have brought it to such a termination
(Hear.) He thought Mr. Bulwer had lett it much
better than it now stood, within so long to quoque wind-
ing up.—(Hear, hear.) It was quite indispensable that
some understanding should be come to with the
Spanish Government with a view to set at rest this most
objectionable proceeding; for although we had drawn it
on ourselves, yet we had received such an insult as had
never been inflicted on any Government before.—(Hear,
hear) He would for a moment refer to the language
used by the Noble Viscount who had been so justly com-
plained of. The Noble Lord said—" The recent down-
fal of the King of the French and his family, and
the expulsion of his Ministers, ought to indicate to
the Spanish Court and Government the danger to which
they expose themselves in endeavouring to govern a
country in a manner opposed to the sentiments and
opinions of the nation ; and the catastrophe which
has just occurred in France is sufficient to show that
even a numerous and well-disciplined army offers only
an insufficient defence to the Crown when the system
followed by it is not in harmony with the general system
of the country. The Queen of Spain would act wisely
i❑ the present critical state of affairs if sho were to
strengthen her Executive Government, by widening the
bases on which the Administratio❑ reposes, and in
calling to her councils some of the men in whom the
Liberal Tarty places confidence. If that meant anything
it meant an approbation of the revolution which had
taken place in France.—(Hear, hear.) It was not tem •
sistent with good feeling, in a fortnight after the arrival
of that unfortunate prince (the King of the French) and
his family in this kingdom, to hold him up as a warning
to the Spanish Government. And it was not true—it could
not be said that he was governing France in " a manner
opposed to the sentiments and opinions of the nation."
The feelings of the people were expressed in the only
legitimate way in which they could be made known,
namely, by a Government majority in both his chambers.
But, suppose this was so—suppose the Noble Viscount's
representation to be correct, and it had been so stated to
General Narvaez, he might at once have said, " If the
King of the French had allowed his able, upright,
and courageous Minister to act as I have done, he would
still have been on the throne of France." General Nar-
vaez had put down the attempt at revolution by means
which, unfortunately for himself, the King of the French
abstained from using. It was therefore no argument as
to what might have been done by firm resistance.—
(Hear.) He must also say that the time chosen for giv-
ing his advice was most inopportune, it being just at ter
the Spanish Government had put down an attempt at
insurrection.—(Hear.) But objectionable as the com-
munication was it could not have been expected to pro-
duce such an answer.—(Hear.) Much depended on the
feeling existing between the party who made the
communication and the individual who received it. He
should have had no difficulty in giving advice through
Lord Cowley to M. Guisot, because of the friendly
feeling which existed between them, and this communi-
cation, if it had been made by a friend, might have
been differently received; but it was offered without the
shadow of a hope of its being accepted.—(flear, hear.)
Suppose that our interference had led to a change of
Ministry, and that national calamities had followed this
change, we should clearly have, in such case, been re-
svonsible to Europe for those calamities. He denied
that the interference of the Government in the recent
case was called for by any existing treaty. He con-
sidered it the duty of the Government of Great Britain
to establish a friendly understanding with the Spanish
Government of a clear, straighforward character, and to
be no longer influenced in any degree by what should
now be the dissipated bugbear of French influence.
Lord BROUGHAM expressed his gratification to
hear that friendly relations were once more established
between this country and Spain, and suggested that the
quarrel being now over, the less reference there was
made to it the better.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY fully concurred
in the Noble Lord's qualification that the misunder-
standing between England and Spain, occasioned by the
unwarrantable interterence in Spanish affairs of our
Secretary for Foreign Affairs, was now dissipated. Ile
felt compelled, nevertheless, to denounce the conduct of
the Noble Secretary in meddling as he did with ev(Ty-
thing and everybody, a mania which had involved him
in the perfectly natural dislike and distrust in every Court
of Europe. .

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE contended that it
was unjust to denounce as gratuitous meddling the con-
duct of his Noble Friend in directing our Minister at
Madrid discreetly to give, when occasion should arise,
such advice to a friendly Government as the Noble Lord,
under the circumstances, deemed it well tor that Govern-
ment to have, not dictated, but suggested to it. The
only error in the matter was an error of judgment on
the part of Mr. Bulwer, in the mode of tendering the
advice at a peculiarly critical moment.
The subject then dropped, and their Lordships' ad-
journed.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 8.
HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL.

Mr. SLANE Y in continuation proceeded to say—He
believed that if the opponents of the Bill had read the
rules and resolutions of the different Commissioners, who
had been appointed to investigate the condition of the
working classes throughout the country, and on which
the Bills of the Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) and the
Noble Lord (Lord Morpeth) were founded, they would
no longer continue their unjust and unnecessary oppo-
sition. He knew those Commissions to have consisted
of the ablest engineers of the country, and felt proud
to have the honour of being a fellow labourer with some
of those personages on one Commission. He then in-
vestigated the condition of sixteen towns, among which
was "Birmingham, and he should solemnly aver that a
worse condition than that of the working classes, among
pigs and stench, could not be imagined. There was
great ignorance of the art of making drains amongst those
to whom the care of their construction was entrusted,
being made six feet high and three feet wide, when
much smaller and much cheaper ones would answer
every purpose. The consequence was, that the poor had
not the benefit of as extensive a system of drainagii as
they deserve and were entitled to. Earthenware pipes
were much cheaper, and carried off filth much better
than brick channels. It was absolutely necessary also
that they should have an abundant supply of water in
the improved districts, and, therefore, the importaras of
a measure to enforce all these provisions for the public
health could not be too greatly appreciated. The only
course that now lay before them, in their endeavour to
realize the practice of these principles, was to go into
Committee on the Public Health Bill, which had been
very properly entrusted to the Noble Lord the First
Commissioner of Woods and Forests, who had yielded a
great point, viz., that he would consent to the Bill being
carried into practice by the Government, assisted by
two unpaid Commissioners. The Hon. Member for
Exeter objected to the appointment of any Commis-
sioner, but he was sure that his anxiety for the
health and comfort of the poorer classes would not
allow that circumstance to remain an obstacle with
him. The reports on the state of certain portions of
the towns of Bristol, Bath, Frome, Merthyr, and other
places of the west, were of a nature to rouse the most
apathetic to a sense of the importance of a general
cleansing system. The mortality returns were a true
criterion of the wretched state of the population, and in
the places he had named, it varied from 25 to 8, the
general average throughout the country being 22 per
cent. In some other places it amounted to as much as
four, five, or even six per cent. After looking at the
state of all those towns, he had come to the conclusion,
that it was absolutely necessary for every class of society
that reforms of this description should be carried out
immediately, and if this were refused, or defeated, or
impeded, the evil results of that line of conduct would
sooner or later become apparent, because it was clearly
the health of the poor that enabled them to render pro-
ductive the property of the rich. In Lancashire alone
there were 336,000 cases of disease attributable to the
want of measures of this sort, and that number would
speedily be increased or equalled in other parts of the
kingdom, and there was no knowing in what their neg-
ligence might terminate.
Mr. C. PEARSON observed that it was extremely
difficult to define the boundary line between the prin-
ciple and details of a Bill; as that which one Hon. Gen-
tleman might consider a principle, another might regard
only as a matter of detail. Hence the frequent reply to
objections against this Bill: " They are only matters of
detail—let us consider them in Committee." Hisidea
of the principle of this Bill was this—that so many cities,
towns, and boroughs in the country as the Government
should please to distinguish by an order in council were
to be taken out of the existing law, which vested the
power of making sanitary regulations in a local autho-
rity, and placed under the controul of a Government
Board—that was to say, that the time-honoured insti •
tutions of the country were, like ricketty children, to
be placed in the go-cart of Government centralisa-
tion. That was, in his estimation, the principle of
the Bill, and, being altogether opposed to it, he could
not consent to go into Committee for the purpose of
considering how it might best be carried out. The
Hon. Gentleman proceeded to combat the arguments of
the last and other speakers, that this Bill would materi-
ally improve the. social and physical condition of the peo-
ple, by referring to the sanitary system of France and
other continental countries, of which he said this Bill
was an imitation, and showing .that under that system
those countries were inferior to England in morality,
longevity, and physical comforts. The proportion of
deaths.
in France was 1 in 42; in Prussia, 1 in 38; in
Austria, 1 in 33; in Russia, lin 38; and in England, 1
in 45. The Hon. Gentleman did not state what re turns
he quoted from, but argued that in England, under hert
own principle of local self-government, there was less

-

mortality than in those countries where the system 0
centralisation sought to be established by this Bill was
in operation. He also quoted largely from returns re-
specting early marriages, showing a great preporideranhoo
in favour of England, and particularly London, while
number of illegitimate children was proportional
small. Ile wholly acquitted the Noble Lord the Member
for London of having omitted that city from the Bill be-
cause of his political connexion, and must do him the
.
justice to say, that he believed there was not the
slightest foundation for any such imputation. lie or
posed this Bill not for the city of London. but as
Member of Parliament speaking for the country at large;
and as such, he must say with regret that the grost
misrepresentations had been palmed upon the country_
respecting it. As the sample so was the sack.
found it stated in a report of the sub-committee ices
Health of Towns Association—a body of propagand'sl
who were trying to infect the minds of the nation;
" that since 1838 upwards of 58,000 children were a, f,
stroyed in London who would not have been destroyen:,,
the rate of mortality was the same as in the district °f
Lewisham." If fairness were intended, a place having
only only about 600 inhabitants widely separated would
have been chosen as a comparison and placed in CO'
_,,e
trait with a thickly populated city. This showed by,
manner in which the public mine had been druggeab:t
the advocates of this measure. He would add tof
though during the years stated the whole nunibrerl3o
children aged 5 years and under who had died ii ;be
city of London was 5,125, the number was stated il;40.
publications put forth by these associations to be 58.45,
He (Mr. Pearson) should be ashamed to make ishe
charges here in the absence of those parties, unle°'ere
had previously made them before a body of the rner°l"ith
of these associations, when the secretary of the 11" w,,
of Towns Association and the secretary of the Me he
politan Association were both present; and yet deserted
made the charge they stood mute monuments of e.pa.
impositions, which they had not the courage to en
Hence, he had a right to charge against these
publications and statements which were grossly
sills
and only put forth to influence votes in favour e'tiot
measure. Still, however, he did not pretend to ssY
there was not room for great sanitay m
that admission he made as broadly rasp heprover:l'e° could state
Led
it.—(Hear, hear.) He would mention one case Sts te
in a report published by the Statistical Societ','ese
which Colonel Sykes, Dr. Guy, and Mr. Neese ° oar
parties. The case had reference to a pestle 0,
locality, to which presently he would give a none,:nt he
read it with shame and humiliation, to think to
lived in a country were such scenes were perl334'we of
take place. These gentlemen referred to the conditio
eighteen houses which had been visited consecuti:eod
Each of these contained a dense population closely Palo.
together to an extent which it was frightful to contenif
In these abodes the maximum amount of cubic felt of
r
air was 270 feet, but the average was 176 cubic the
air for respiratory purposes. Why, any felon h'-f, sir
country was allowed in his cell 1,000 cubic feet ° rep
for the purposes of his health, and yet these Peeri.coll
tures, thus huddled together, had an average of
176 feet. The report went on to state that in, tose•
wretched abodes all ages and sexes were huddle ° herg
ther—fathers and daughters, mothers and sons, bOoting
and sisters, adult strangers male and female, rindl tot
children—the sick and the dying—to a pressM: ini
even brutes would resist ; and among them it waoo,
possible to observe the ordinary decencies of I",ei aria
hence immorality and vice grew with their gr°`"`„oll°
strengthened with their strength. To put a°
„i'fiaer
such a system he would willingly join with any:body of men. But where did all this take nilau:' i
the
under whose control and government ? 1711Jh'
locality was Church-street, St. Giles's, and the anti
was that of the Woods and Forests.—(Hear,
House was aware that an Act had been passed V'e eel(
authority to the Woods and Forests to construct
street through St. Giles's to connect Holborn /Iti,",rset.
ford. street; and for the construction of the neercE"ocioa'
tax was imposed upon all coals imported into ue,d by
This tax, it had been untruly charged, was mansg,:, tee:
the corporation of London. On the coetrarf, tew-bice
nagemeat was placed in the Woods and Forests, 00001.,
department had a fund from that source of lye
with which to make the new street, to pull down Pi-a the
houses of the locality, and to make arrangementsehost)"
better accommodation of the people who would,. 'd bee°
displaced from their habitations. And what ,1 doe°
the result ? Why, the houses had been P,e'lbeodes de{
and the people were driven into the wretched inmates
`
scribed in the report he had quoted, the tj-or 67 ?et
which had thus been increased to the eaten-woods an-
cent. So much for the management of the
Forests, that t"
Lord MORPETII intimated across the
new street and alterations alluded to had not beecoey
red out by the Woods and Forests, but under theoicli
missioners of Metropolitan Improvements, of to
body the Lord Mayor was a member.—(Hear,heanf the
Mr. C. PEARSON resumed—He was aware vd00;
convenience of putting in the commission a few fits
mies—(A laugh)—and no doubt the name of there it
Mayor had been included in the commission to gclobt
an appearance of popularity; but 110 man could i sit
that the Lord Mayor, however respectable, would ir
into measureless insignificance in the presence 0,
„if
table t or,
dividual of so high a position as the Noble -tr.a.eiti,
(Loud laughter.) If, therefore, the Woods and
power and supervision of managed affairs so wretchedly so near home' soli;
could be calculated upon as the result of Wird itJtji
In the course of this discussion the subject of partstrolling
of
B insepo_ek(sueiser, -bir :bee
visitation of the cholera in this country surne 1
ago had been alluded to. At that time--047, fi
1832, he had been appointed chairman °'eere the
parishes, to administer a fund of 10,0001. vote° -1;
Corporation. He entered on this point to show it tie del
vantage of local government. The city of Lonuielbtfe'
termined to act for themselves, despite the frTt tb°
edict issued by the Privy Council at that tittle, - fibe
head of which was the Marquis of Lansdocce'ir pre;
citizens of London stood their ground, as had °Led $6
decessors at the time of the plague. They (1 frci";
their own cost a board of health, which dissenterole
the views of Sir Henry Halford and the GOe of he
medical men as to the contagious character 00 ;
disease. And what had been the consequene„9,
course pursued ? In Paris, where the disel-0-;80:,,,h1
treated as contagious, the deaths were as 1 'it' 'flf Ors;
in London, which had taken its own course ;"I W 43,
dure, the deaths had been in the proportion o'0300:To,
of the population. These were proofs that the tbetiner
ment of local affairs ought to be left to local °e eef
whose exertions ought not to be permitted to 'roe al
lysed or deadened by the influence or intericen
Government commissioners.—(Hear, hear.) bbe sere
think he should do service to the cause w"`",hi§ciff
cerely advocated if he said more than to exPrt eolle,be
viction that if this Bill should pass, whatever tevod re
might choose to submit to, the city of Londe° DeeP
metropolitan districts would not tolerate such $
imprel
being applied to them.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord ASHLEY said he was very anxinns,"-tieee:iie'
upon the House the absolute and indispensabie,eeteg
of commencing some measure calculated to re'-wor'.its
vances which weighed so heavily ponied il or,- •
classes.—(Hear, hear.) His le Frtbis era
workingorp) had said the other night thsti,-„-3
man's Bill. His Noble Friend ";ted Wb
uttered a truer thing. The measure was conne,,-0 tbd,
the working man's whole existence. It begi-t tooc4
home—it affected his capacity to go abroad-.--,130111,-0'
his health, and it increased or diminished his e
obtaining a livelihood for his wife, his fan3llY,h'e
self. This question, formerly unknown to "lat•tt'
was now well understood by them, and its east edo,
ment was one of the dearest objects they I°S,cl,ol4licitsej
Hence it affected not merely the physical anui,, pee' fel
dition of the working classes, but also the'..%.arr,:teO
content or discontent, just as legislative u'e'negl'ciio;
sanitary improvement were adopted or „et ,
Ile did not deny that there were Vkiec" tt
culties in the way of legislation on this "tipreefecett:
that it required great ingenuity and perse:%te
devise a measure which should be an ant`tnt°"6,
prodigious and intolerable evils which at Pretatb,e'ii
But the greatness of these difficulties could :b:: e 11 °
ought not to be, any argument for stopping
measure at the very threshold of its due cons'oo"(;`,'
namely, in Committee; and he (Lord Ashlef)r, tliebed
Noble Friend opposite (Lord Morpeth), and -in
vernment, the highest praise for the manner icy
they had addressed themselves to this questil'ocei
mode in which they had encountered thosec tettliti4
At the same time, he fairly told them that, jo
the Bill was susceptible of great impeoveliesq
whether or not, he (Lord Ashley) °to e;
House to let the Government have treitte,,,;;j:
tunity of dealing with the Bill in Ccn-cif
cause it was a measure which had airetbet,.',lld
strong a hold upon the minds of the peoPle.' "iprref!';
essentially necessary to prove to them in de"-ossl
or was nut feasible in respect to the rentaeseioi)
various abominations to which they were st.nrg
posed. It had been stated that the existiL VA/
sufficient to effect all purposes. The law "'soy
remove nuisances provided men had the o°,l-01 te'll
law; but still they were insufficient or tl,ereeeffe
institution of improvements, especially in re;t-bere'll",l'
due and sufficient supply of water, and iletegin
repeated his hope that the Bill would be
for investigation in Committee. He (1):0-058,4t
should not have ventured to address the •'-"-dtlr'sq
subject, had it not been for the observations!, tfroy
the House the last night of the debate l'"wb°,0011?
Member for West Surrey (Mr. Drumnsoed). tbee'ole
that a number of interested persons availing bed!/,'"
of the feeling which prevailed in the countr,Pois
dl
an agitation in order to carry a measure 0` deePoP?
tion. As he (Lord Ashley) had been W be •
Ws-ye 13 Itt
est
obtain
•e barked in the whole of this movem 7
been actively
engaged in the endeavour toto /alto, y
lative measure on this subject, he was reedicooo,oo;,'
himself a share of as much blame as 3 to
upon the proceeding; but he would leave I (f,Ofor,
Member (Mr. Drummond) to show that b.e tliestO
ley) had exhibited a grain of selfishness I,ll‘oo, roll
—(hear, hear.) And he would ask the fop.
,00034?
whether, in the opposition to the measure'eo 'o°
something of selfishness, and a low and ea
pecuniary interests?—(Hear, hear.) ;cosseieep
Member treated the subject with so much sbe it. ofd
must have forgotten, or never have know oponsfe stood
lag which existed through the country
eri Itiroseoeolf
could not have known that in almost °me ab to
local boards had been formed to investif.iooi4 ipb"
to make periodical reports which, from b to rf'so
• t of " oil to
showed one and the same complain rest i
quacy of the law for the removal of the gtwo be
d been to IsPo
ing evils they denounced. There had sing
e pros oh et/
from the city he represented—On the
empted from the Bill—the other from to sif; III•ete";
ceiling upon their representatives not
_Tient t_,d
local influences, but to make it subse,,,,e_ fotwoteep
neral good. He (Lord Ashley), sheretvo,e beittee,
at liberty to act as he liked, and, actl,,coose?„,,
! should vote for the Bill going intl.' to ill"'
there introduce such amendments as

~110°13' 4414