The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-11 00:00:00

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL.

On the order of the day being read,
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved that the Speaker do
leave the chair, when
Sir JAMES GRAHAM observed, that since the sub
ject of friendly societies was last before the House he
had had an opportunity of considering it more in detail,
and was now in a position to bring in a Bill ►vhich would
embody the whole of the Hon. Gentleman's amendments.
He proposed, in the first place, to classify and specify
all societies, de ejusdem generic, which should be in-
cluded in the operation of the Act, under one general head.
He thought it would be of great importance to acopt the
suggestion thrownout byChiefJustice Tindal. Mr. Tidd Pratt
had, in the case of savings' banks, had the power of arbitra-
tion, and he proposed to give him, under this Act, the power
of arbitration with regard to friendly societies, with a regular
salary, He also proposed that there should be a record kept
of all such societies as had been enrolled, with a short sum-
mary of the objects for which they were formed. He would,
therefore, suggest that the House should go into Committee
pro forma, and he would also suggest that the Hon. Mem-
ber should postpone the further consideration of the Bill for a
fortnight, in order that these proposed alterations should be
made known.

Mr. DUNCOMBE said that he would not put the House
to the trouble of considering the Bill on the present occasion,
but he should accede to the motion of the Right Hon.
Baronet, and allow this Bill to go into Committee pro forma,
and then receive the alterations proposed by the Right Hon.
Baronet. It WAS quite clear, after the statement of the Hon.
Gentleman, that he must consider the Bill as destroyed. His
object in introducing the Bill would not be in the least pre-
vented by the alterations ofiLlie Right llon. Baronet.
The object he had in view in bringing forward this Bill wet,
simply to remove all doubt at present existing with regard
to the decision of Justice Wightman, in the Court of Queen's
Bench, and, in point of fact, to extend the operation of the
Bill to all societies not illegal in themselves. He could not
conceive why societies not of an illegal nature should not be
benefited by the Act. Friendly societies were of great
benefit to the industrious classes, and they should be more
encouraged and better brought under the control of the law.
He could not conceive that any society of an illegal or im-
proper nature would ventere to enrol their rules. He
was very much afraid that the proposition of the Right
Hon. Baronet would control the operation of the present
Act with regard to the friendly societies now existing. It
would be competent for him (Mr. Duncombe), when the
hill was again produced, to suggest such amendments as
he should think proper. He considered his Bill as com-
pletely gone ; but he would certainly do his best to reduce
the alterations proposed. The Legislature intended when it
inserted the words " and for any other• purpose not in itself
illegal" that the operation of the Bill should extend to all
societies of this nature. He understood that this alteration
was introduced in 1834, by Lord Althorp, expressly for the
purpose of allowing every society not for a criminal purpose to
enrol itself. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that he should
not object to the Act extending in future to societies to sup
port workmen out of employment. There were such societies
in existence, and unless the Act were made a retrospective
Act, these societies would he destroyed or thrown into con-
siderable confusion. The law would do infinitely better if
allowed to stand as it now existed, instead of introducing
these alterations and leaving it to the discretion of Mr. Tidd
Pratt as to what societies should be enrolled or not. As to
the question of allowing a salary instead of fees, he left that
to be settled by the Right Hon. Baronet and Mr. Tidd Pratt.
He certainly believed that as a public officer no person
had given greater satisfaction than Mr. Tidd Pratt. He
was in constant communication with the industrious classes,
and seemed to be an universal favourite amongst them. Ile
would conclude by saying once more that lie would consent
to the course proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, and should
afterwards take the earliest opportunity of offering such
opinions as he thought necessary.
The House then resolved itself into Committee upon the
Bill.

Sir J. GRAHAM said, he would take that opportunity to
make one or two remarks on what had fallen from the non.
Member. He thought that no other changes than those
proposed in the Bill would be perfectly efficient. At
the present moment, in case of any dispute amongst
the members of friendly societies, they had no re-
medy but th. Court of Chancery ; and in order
to obviate that, he (Sir James Graham) had proposed
that Mr. Tidd Pratt should have the power of settling any
such dispute by arbitration. The lion. Member had said
when the last alteration in the Bill was introduced, the object
of it was that all societies not of an illegal nature should be
enrolled. He wished to call the attention of the Hon. Mem-
ber to a most important change which had taken place
recently with respect to friendly societies. The House would
remember that the interest of funds in savings' banks
had been reduced to 31. ss. per cent., but on friendly societies'
funds the interest was 3/. 16s. per cent. If that were con-
tinued the effect of it would be that all savings' banks would
become friendly societies, to take the benefit of the
increased interest. Under the operation of the Honourable
Gentleman's Bill there could be no doubt that
savings' banks were not illegal societies, but
were asseeiations corning under the form of mutual assur-
ance societies. It was quite impossible that this state of
affairs could be amended until the whole subject came under
the cotislderetlonfif Paeliathent.

Mr. WAKLEY said that it would be better to postpone
the consideration of the Bill until after Easter, for it was
very desirable that this subject should collie coMpletely under
the attention of the Legislature. He had, with his lion.
Colleague, been repeatedly urged to bring this subject for-
ward fur alteration ; but out of their efforts, and the ruins
of the 13111, had arisen a tort of monster which
would frighten all the parties interested.—(Hear.)
He sitsi, great difficulty hi this matter, and he did not per-
ceive where there was any necessity for introducing these
words, and this was the more evident from the circumstance
that, although it was universally acknowledged, that savings'
banke *ere hot political societies, yet they were in this Bill
included precisely in the same dategtifY.
Sir J. GRAHAM was not only not opposed to restricting
the usefulness of friendly societies, but anxious by all the
means in his power to promote it, and it was with a view to
that object that he was desirous of introducing these altera-
tions into the Bill, as it was left by the Hon. Member
for Finsbury (Mr. Duncombe). Ito believed that by this
means they would obtain the advantage of keeping the
savings' banks associations to their proper character,
and all he wished was that they might obviate the diffi-
culty which would otherwise arise. The Attorney and Soli-
citor General and Mr. Tidd Pratt had all been consulted, and
they had all expressed An opinion that the alterations were
both desirable and requisite. The alterations gave to parties
desirous of avoiding the decision of Mr. Tidd Pratt the op-
portunity of appealing. within eight days to the Solicitor-
General; and this alone, he thought, was a valuable altera-
tion, which ought to recommend itself to the House.
Mr. B. lIAWES thought that this alteration would be a
valuable improvement of the law, and if the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Duncombe) had not succeeded in obtaining all that he
desired, he had at least this consolation, that he had been the
instrument of effecting a great enlargement of the utility of
friendly societies throughout the kicgdom. If he had not
altered the it hole of the law, his proceeding had affected a
great part of it, and the country had to thank him for a
great public improvement, although he might not have ob-
tained all that he desired.

Sir J. GRAHAM would beg to assure the Hon. Gentleman
that the clauses to which he referred hid been most carefully
considered, and had been framed so as not to affect the so-
cieties now in existence. Mr. Tidd Pratt bad bestowed much
attention upon them, and every desire was felt to divest the
measure of everything that was objectionable in its character.
Mr. WAKLEY wished to know whether the Bill, as now
amended, had received the approbation of Mr. Tidd Pratt.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM—Most decidedly.
The Bill then went through Committee, and the report
was brought up.
SALMON FISHERIES.

Mr. PAKINGTON rose to snore the second reading of
this Dill. In doing so, he would only detain the House a
very few minutes, but was complied to trouble them for
that space, because he was aware that the provisions of the
Bill were not kliown. Such being the circumstance. ;he
would beg to state that the principal objects of this Bill are
to consolidate the laws on fisheries, and to regulate the
Casting the nets. The Dili Will be a very great improve-
ment on the law as it stands; and he should, therefore, at
tsilo incite kemeOnd reading of the Bill.
Captain HARRIS hdd fin desire to offer any opposition to
the second reading of this Bill, but there were one or two
of its propositions which appeared to him to be impracticable.
OM Of the prOViliiOns wee, that no fishing should be made
within two hundred yards of any dam, or within a certain
distance of the banks. Now, upon the Avon, which was a
great salmon fishing river, such a rule would prove most in-
convenient, and he thought that some other might be sub-
stituted for it. His object, however, was not to oppose the
Bill, but merely to draw the attention of the Hon. Gentle-
man to the circumstance.
After a few words from Mr. BUCK, who also declined any
opposition to the Bill, it was read a second time, and or-
dered to be committed on the 6th of May.
ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.
Mr. B. ESCOTT moved the second reading of this Bill.
In doing so lie said he felt the high honour that had been
done him in selecting him to move the second reading of this
Mill, in place of the Hon. Member who was to have done so
(Ma 11911. Member for liinsals.lt Ills Dill sought to remove