The Sun.
London, England, 1846-01-30 00:00:00

Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary-at-War, on the
part of the Government, to introduce a Bill for the em-
bodiment of the militia on an early day, in which there
would be considerable amendments on the present law.
Mr. ROSS was opposed to the adjournment of the
House for the reason stated. He considered a reformed
House of Commons ought not to keep such a holidayas the
ono named, and for which the House was asked to adjourn.
He thought that it was a reproach to those honourable
men who had shed their blood in order to retain the
chartered liberties of the country. They had sacrificed
their lives in the defence of those liberties, and he
thought that it would be foolish with that fact before
them to keep that absurd fast.—(Cheers, and laughter.)
That was his opinion, and he felt bound to declare it.—
(Cheers.) [Several Hon. Members exclaimed at the
same moment, "No such thing."] At least that
was his impression, and he found it was pub-
lished in the vipers of the House, and entered in
the notice book, that to-morrow was to be observed as a
fast in the commemoration of the martyrdom of King
Charles. Now there could be no doubt that such then
was the case, and if he went out with only one or two
of his friends, he would divide the House on the sub-
ject,

hands of the Accountant-General as security on
the part of the railway company of their intention
to proceed with their scheme, and that it was
a bona fide undertaking.—(Hear, hear.) But he consi-
dered if they were to give ten thousand or thirty thou-
sand pounds, value in Consols, Exchequer-bills,or India
Bonds, they were as good as Bank notes. All that
the
House wanted was security from companies of their in-
tention to prosecute their schemes ; and is acting on
the suggestion he now made he believed all parties would
be benefited.—(Hear, hear.) Whether the deposits
were paid into the hands of the Bank of England
or the Accountant-General, the course he recommended
would be satisfactory to all parties, and no difficulty
would then arise.
Mr. RICARDO said it appeared to him of little con-
sequence as to in whose name railway deposits might be
paid, whether in the name of one man in preference to
another, or as to who might be the party who made the
payment. If the Accountant-General invests the money
by his order in the Bank of England, then is the
latter in a position to pay interest on it, and
if he does not, the Bank of England is
not in a position to pay upon it. The securities of
country banks might have been taken were there not
doubts whether they had not made advances on the se-
curity of deposits in a very imprudent manner. If these
banks in this respect had acted with common
prudence there would have been no difficulty at
all. A great deal of the inconvenience now
complained of would have been avoided if, at the time of
registration, a period was named for the deposits to be
paid. It might be stated that they should be paid by a
certain day, szy three or four months after the registra-
tioh of the Company. He thought it was easy to calcu-
late when these deposits were first paid what would be
the effect on the public circulatiAL
Mr. MUNTZ said that he could not help thinking
that it was very strange that the Government should
refuse to receive their own securities as a payment into
the public Treasury, especially when they were only
held as a trustee fund, and he conceived that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer was throwing something like
disgrace on their own credit. He thought the proposal
a very proper one, and if the Hon. Member for Sunder-
land had not made it he should have made it himself,
for it appeared exceedingly strange that the Govern-
ment should refuse to receive their own paper, especially
when the doing so would be a saving of expense to the
public as well as inconvenience.
Sir R. PEEL said that the express object of the re-
gulation complained of was to give relief to the public.
He thought that the parties who were chiefly interested
in this matter had had sufficient notice of tho effect of
this regulation to save themselves and those
with whom they had to deal. That the rule
would be attended with some inconvenience
to the parties most immediately interested
in railways he could not deny. It was well understood
that the object of Parliament was to discourage unsound
speculation in railways. The deposit had originally
been so low, that it offered no bar whatever to the ex-
tent, the inconvenient extent, of speculation, and Parlia-
liament had accordingly made the deposits required
after a certain period 10 per cent., and at the time that
that rule was instituted it was well known that the depo-
sits were to be paid in money to the Accountant-General,
and not in stock, and the object of that rule was to prevent
that unsound speculation which the other rule had not
been stringent enough to do, and thus the object of the
Government was served. The rule would by no means pre-
vent the discount of long hills, and if it interfered at all
with short ones, it would only do so with that class of
paper, such as bills which had only two or three months
to run, and which were generally presented for discount
by parties who had unwisely used their funds in railway
speculations. It was intended that there should be
pressure, but he believed that Hon. Members would be
mistaken if they imagined that the pressure would be more
injurious now than at a future period, or that it would
he at all relieved by the payments being in the hands of
the Accountant-General rather than in those of the Bank
of England. He had given his most careful attention to
the subject, and he perfectly agreed with his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He had had
interviews with many parties of the highest authority
and experience in the City, and they were convinced
that the plan adopted would be the best
that could be used for the purpose. But the
proposal that after a portion of the money had
been deposited, a certain interval should elapse before
its return would, in his opinion, be unjust to the specu-
lator, who ought to have the earliest opportunity of get-
ting his money back, should the railway in which he
had embarked not pass the standing orders.
Mr. P. M. STEWART rose to explain. He thought
the interval between the depositing and the release of
the money could be determined by the fate of the Bill
when certified by the proper authority.
Sir R. PEEL objected, on the ground that the fate of
a Bill might not be decided for perhaps two or three
months.

various parts of the kingdom, and in every instance it had been
found that the wages had not diminished, and the condition of
the people had been much improved ; and he understood that
great moral advantages had been the result. He was very
anxious to ascertain what the effect of the limitation of wages
was in the kindom of Prussia. The King of Prussia had, in
the e'ear 1839, passed a decree limiting the hours of labour
of all children under the age of 16. That decree had existed
ever since, and was in full operation at the present time. What
was the result of it ? He had received an answer to sense in-
quiries ; a statement from Elberfelds, which said that in the
manufactories there no diminution of wages had taken place,
although the decree limiting the hours of labour had been a
long time in force. It also said that the law exercised a salu-
tary influence on the physical and moral condition of the
working people. That answer came from the manufacturers
themselves. He had received another answer, which also
stated that no diminution of wages had taken place. There
had been at first a strong feeling against the law, but this sub-
sided when its beneficial effects were found. He had received
an answer to a question put by him to the Secretary of the
Home Department, which asserted that, wherever the hours of
labour had been shortened not a single remonstrance had been
made with regard to it, and no resistance had been
made to it The people entertained seine doubts at
first, as they feared foreign competition, but they
soon seemed quite satisfied with the arrangement.
The people of France had also followed their example; for
though they had objected at first, a law hail been framed for
the regulations of factories, which was a transcript of their
own. Russia had also followed the same example. The peo-
ple of Russia, from an estimate of the moral and physical ad-
vantages such a regulation would produce, had seen the pro-
priety of adopting a measure of this kind. The experience of
the snccess of the principle had operated in this manner on
these countries, and not only these countries, but every other
country he was persuaded, would be compelled to carry it rout.
He would now pass on from this review of the results, to the
general consideration of the influence of factory regulations on
the physical, moral, and financial condition of the manufactur-
ing population of this country. He requested the attention
of the House while he referred to several productions which
were made in 1833, when he first undertook the introduction
of what was called the Ten Hours' Bill. There were four pre-
dictions continually rung in the ears of the House, and ss ere
the arguments continually employed by the opponents
of the Bill to defeat this measure. The first prediction
was, that if the Bill passed the cotton trade would be destroyed—
that an end would be put to the great staple branch of national
industry. The second prediction was, that the wages of the
operatives would be diminished. The third prediction was,
that the wages of the children would be reduced, so that they
would receive only a fractional payment fur their labour. And the
fourth prediction was, that the number r f children employed
would be di minished,and that great physical suffering would ensue.
He would now come to the results of those predictions. And
first, he would take the effect a f the limitation of wages occa-
sioned by the reduction of the hours of labour, and he would,
in the first place, appeal to the year 1831, when the first Act
was passed for reducing those hours ; and then would, in the
second place, bring forward the period after labour was pro-
tected, and show that the wages had not been diminished.
In the year 1831 the first Bill had been passed for the limitation
of those who were called young persons. Those were persons
between the ages of fourteen and eighteen years. In 1831 an
Act had been passed which limited the labour of those young
persons to twelve hours in the day ; ai.d it was asserted tl.at
the effect of this measure would be to reduce the wages of those
individuals. Now, how far was that assertion, that protection
would injure wages, founded in- truth ? In 1833, before this
protection was granted, the wages of those indiv duals had, on
an average, been ss. 4d. per week, while, after that protection
was granted, the average rate of esages was 6s. II d. per week,
showing not less a rise than upwards of thin ty per cent. These
facts were drawn from returns made from the four great man u-
facturing towns of Bolton, Preston, Oldham, and Manchester.
Now, in the third place, with reference to the wages of those
distinguished as children. Before 1833 the average
rate of wages of these children was 3s. Id. per week.
Before the Bill which limited the work of children under
thirteen years of age, the time of these children
was eight hours. By that Bill the time was reduced to six
hours, and although the average rate of wages was reduced to
2s. 2d., yet it was rather an apparent than a real diminutien,
for though there was an abatement, yet it was not at all equiva-
lent to the relief, and the families were in fact far better off than
before, for a great demand for children had been created, and
where only one child was employed before, two were now re-
quired. Now he would allude to the fourth prediction. In
order to do so it would be necessary for him to enter into some
minute details, but he hoped the House would pardon his so
doing, on the ground that they were essential for the purposes
he had in view. The next point raised was that children would
suffer physically. He begged them to see how far that predic-
tion had been verified. It was extremely difficult to obtain a
return of the number of children under 13 years of age, em-
ployed in 1833, but those who knew were aware that very few
had received any education at all. Now he would assert that
there were under 13 years of age, working six hours a day, and
receiving three hours education each day, no less than 30,000
children.--( Hear, hear.) Before the year 1833 there
were scarcely any children receiving education. The
increase of children attending school since 1833 was at
the rate of 8 to I.—( Hear.) On the other hand, the inert-ale
of children attending school, above 13 years of age, who were
kept at work during the full period was almost nothing. Ile
would now call attention to the opinions expressed by the
Committee of Operative Spinners—a body which had been
opposed to the introduction of the law which limited children to
half time, because it pressed heavily upon them. He would be
glad to give them the opinion of those who had been opposed
to the half time system. For every year their condition was
much 'improving, but particularly since 1844. Now, mark
this—for several years the labour of these children had de-
creased to some extent, and during that period a great im-
provement had taken place in teir moral and physical
condition ; to such an extent, indeed, that he did not despair
but before long they would occupy positions fit for human
beings.—(Hear, hear.) The hand•loom weavers now declare
that so great is the benefit resulting to them
and their children, by working for a limited period, that
before they would work longer they would part with their last
shilling. Now, he heard this statement with great satisfaction,
and he believed he might appeal to the Hon. Gentleman op-
posite, the Member for Durham (Mr. Bright), as to the vast
improvements that would take place by the shortening of the
hours of labour.—(Hear.) The great benefit that had been
felt by them on getting their holidays, and the renewed energy
with which they returned to their labour after such holidays,
was, he considered another proof of the benefit of shortening
the hours of labour. He would say that there was something
very cruel in taking children from their parents at a tender
age, and exacting from them labour, such as the most grown
could hardly support or endure.—( Hear, hear.) These
children are engaged during the whole period of twelve
hours out of the twenty-four, a period during which adults in
vigorous health carry on their labour. W ell, now observe
what an effect this produces on the community. That it is a
matter of vital importance to the peace and welfare of this
country that women should be brought up with some know-
ledge of domestic arrangements, so as to enable them to dis-
charge their duties, has ever been an admitted fact. Yet,
how was it possible that they should learn those duties when
they returned home in a state of exhaustion? How was it
possible, he would ask them, that they could learn any of the
necessary details in which consist the comforts of the working
man's home ? It is another admitted fact by lawyers, commi
sioners, and statesmen, that on the condition of the women in
the manufacturing towns depends the social welfare and happi-
ness of the men. A friend of his residing in the neighbour-
hood of several large factories, and who erected two night
schools for the purposes of giving some instruction in reading,
writing, and needle-work, informed him that the anxiety evinced
by these poor people to receive instruction was very great.
These schools were opened twice a-week, and on the first night
of their opening forty young men and thirty-eight young
women entered immediately. So great was the fatigue under-
gone during the day that although they observed an earnest
desire to receive instruction their physical powers would not
endure it. Four or five used to be found asleep at a time, and
at length, after the space of a few months, the classes were
deserted by all but five. They were asked the cause of this
desertion, and they answered that they could not spend their
evenings at school as they had to be up at five o'clock in the
morning, and that owing to their short rest at night they
found it almost impossible to keep awake. Thus the school
that was opened for their benefit was compelled to be shut up,
although they were eager to attend it. There was, in another
country, an establishment where a different state of things
existed—where twelve hours of labour was considered to be
sufficient for health and moral improvement. The law he
referred to was a law at Lowell, in the United
States. He would begin by assuming that the hours
of labour in both countries were the same, that
was to say twelve hours a day. Dr. Bartlett, who
wrote a book called " The Institutions of Lowell,"
said that a statute existed, by which no person under fifteen
years of age was allowed to work more than nine months out
of the year.—( Hear, hear.) The other three months were to
be passed at school. That law was enforced with unflinching
strictness, so that in time of scarcity no infraction of it is ever
heard of or allowed. He (Dr .Bartlett) had stated that he never
knew an instance of any person under fifteen years of age
working more than nine months out of the year. What was
the case in the English factories ? Why children who had at-
tained the age of 13 years were admitted to twelve hours' work for
the whole year. They do not begin at such an early age as
they do in England. Out of 2,000 gtrls employed at Lowell,
who had been indiscriminately examined, the average age was
twenty-three years. In one mill, of 657 girls employed in it,
the average age was 22,i years. The average time these had
been employed was 34 years, making them about nineteen
years of age when they entered the factory. Thus,
while nineteen years of age was the average age of girls
entering factories in Lowell to work twelve hours a day, in
England the age was thirteen at which children were called on
to work twelve hours a day.—( Hear.) In another mill in
Lowell the average age of the girls employed was twenty-three
years, and they had been engaged in the factory for four years,
making the age of entry, as in the other case, nineteen years.
The peculiar characteristics of Lowell had been shown in an
authentic work, lately published in America, by the Hon.
Henry A. Miles, who had written the work at the solicitation
of the proprietors of Lowell, who had furnished the writer every
statistical information. The writer in the work in question
pointed out the great distinction between the people of Lowell
and the factory operatives of this country. Mr. Miles says—
" There is no permanent factory population. This is the wide
gulph which separates the English manufacturing towns from
Lowell. In the latter place only, a few of the operatives have
their home ; the great proportion came from distant parts of
the country, the girls being principally the daughters of far.
seers." Mr. Miles further states, that, on an average, the girls
do not work more than four and a half years at the factory ;
they return home, and their places are taken by new comers.
Look at the operatives in this country • they spend their whole
lives in the factories ; but in Lowell the average was only four-
and. a-half years, after which they gave tip a factory occupation.
The labourers resident in this country were all their lives de-
voted to this business, and constituted a permanent caste.
Their labour was continued from year to year, and how was it,
he asks, that the English visitor found it so difficult to under-
stand the difference between the manufacturing population of
America and their own. How is it that there is such a differ-
ence between the population of Lowell and that of Leeds or
Manchester. Why, indeed, should there be—why, indeed?
Yet there is. Because the class of females in Lowell are of a
very different order to those of the same class in Manchester.
Now, he would look at the statistical return of the female
operatives in Lowell, and see what a differer ce there was between
the places he had named. Out of the 6,320 female operatives
of the fernier place he found that no less than 350 of them had
been teachers in public schools, and in addition to that t' ire
was also the fact that the women of that place were only accus-
tomed to factory labour about four and a half years of their
lives, and that a great portion of them were married women
In the town of Lowell. Yet he found that there was the same
predominance of female labour in Lowell that there was in
hehei:atrdhrnrea-rlsaso thefotrwo itzhieanufac.turing towns in England which he
wass
was 1300,0000°, aand'i of
named,ed
t band
mafter f a
ct
nithuairtsienrf,ya :no
pwual
as t statedon
some other cause must be looked for than the
of those 10,000 2,915 were
t gallonur ing of
populationweland
whichthwerwethcohleedtnheeseinawifac:
men, while there were 6,320 women, It should be remern-
*. Ile total popu
bered that, in America, there is nothing like commercial re-
striction. Trade is completely free and unfettered. There is
je's'exelcZietvie;
gehret,
iasnglayneetheswteer—hatvhee thsaemseameeorecpomlainplatinetf
nothing to prevent the master from doing
thathim there
labour, premature decay, sinking health, and early graves.
He would next quote from a
public document which had been
presented to the House of Representatives of the State of

Sir ROBERT PEEL said that be had endeavoured
to put the matter in the mast substantive form, and to
express the reasons of her Majesty's Goverument. Now
he had exactly stated that the reason of the adjourn-
ment of the House was really because there was not
public business before them for that day, and be!.!:luse
it would conduce very much to the public convenience.
He conceived that this would constitute a sufficient
reason.

Mr. ROSS expressed himself satisfied with the reasons
of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. BRIGHT conceived that the Right Hon. Baronet
the Secretary for the Home Department had not fully
replied to the question of the Hon. Member for Fins-
bury. He believed that the object of that question had
been to learn whether it was intended to call out the
militia this year or not. It might be necessary to have
a permanent law for the embodiment of the militia, but
that was of small interest to the public at large, and
he, therefore, begged to inquire whether the militia really
was to be called out this year?
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he thought he had already
answered the question. It was the privilege of her
Majesty to call out the militia if the exigencies of the
public service should make it necessary, under the sug-
gestion of her responsible Ministers. It was intended to
bring in a Bill, and under the power of that Bill, if
war should arise, her Majesty would have the power of
calling out the militia after a fortnight's notice. But
when the Bill should be introduced his Right Hon.
Friend the Secretary-at-l Var (Mr. Sidney Herbert)
would explain all its provisions fully to the House.
Mr. WILLIAMS wished particularly to understand
whether the House was to be adjourned, because to-mor
row was the anniversary of an absurd fast, or be-
cause there was no business before the House ?
If the House was to adjourn on that account, he knew of
nothing that would degrade the present generation so
much as that it should be said of them that they ad-
journed the public business because of the anniversary
of the martyrdom of that tyrant, who was led to the scaf-
fold in consequence of superseding the authority of the
Rouse of Commons.—(Hear, and laughter.) If that
tyrant had not violated the institutions of the country,
by attempting to impose public taxes without having
obtained the sanction of Parliament, his death by vio-
lence would never have taken place.—(Laughter.) The
memory of the man who resisted the tyrant, and caused
his overthrow, ought to be cherished, rather than the
fate of the tyrant borne in mind.—(Laughter.)
Lord JOHN MANNERS begged to express his
dissent from every word that had fallen from the
Honourable Member who had last addressed the
House. Ha did not believe that when the Govern-
ment proposed an adjournment of the House from the
following day until Monday that they were actuated by
any such motive as that which the Honourable Member
for Coventry appeared disposed to impute to them.
THE RIVER PLATE.

Lord J. RUSSELL, who spoke in so low a tone ai
to be almost inaudible in the reporters' gallery, inquired
of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government
what instructions had been given to the English ambas-
ador with regard to the contest respecting the River
Plate ?

Sir R. PEEL replied that he had not the slight-
est objection to lay upon the table of the House the ♦ari-
ous documents which would explain the grounds upon
which the Government had acted. The instructions to
our Ambasador he would also lay on the table, but with
respect to other communications he would prefer not
doing so at present, because, recently, proposals had been
made which, though not accepted, might ultimately lay
the foundation of the adjustment of this long-pending
dispute. —( Hear, hoar.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had no wish to ask
for other papers connected with the subject, but he
would be glad to know what demands upon her Ma-
jesty's Government had been refused.
Sir ROBERT PEEL observed that his instructions,
when laid before the House, would show what the pro-
posals were which had been made on the part
of the Government of this country and of France.
The Right Hon. Baronet said he was not prepared to in-
form the Noble Lord (Russell) what were the instruc-
tions issued to their Ambassadors.

Mr. STEWART—Why the standing orders are to
decide it.

Mr. F. BARING considered it would be hard to lock
up money for an indefinite time without interest until
the fate of the Bill might he known. He confessed, but
he might be mistaken, that he could not understand what
disadvantages would arise from the deposit of Exchequer-
bills instead of money.—(Hear.) The object of the de-
posit was, that the Government and the public might
have a security that the undertaking for which it was
proposed to obtain an Act of Parliament was of a bona
tide nature. Ile hoped the House would well consider
the subject.—(Hear, hear.)
The question of the adjournment was then put from
the Chair, and declared carried.
TEN HOURS' BILL.
Lord ASHLEY laid on the table a petition in favour
of the Ten flours' Bill for the regulation of labour.
Lord ASHLEY again rose, and said he felt it
his duty, in the first place, respectfully but
positively to state. that the decision come to
on the factory question was not the decision
of the House, but the decision of her Majesty's Ministers.
He would say that a very large majority of those gentle-
men, who from their position must be the best acquainted
with the feelings of the commercial and manufacturing
interests of this country, supported his proposition. No
less than 33 out of 42 of those Members voted in that
House for the Ten Hours' Bill, and he did hope a similar
support would be given him on the present occasion.
Moreover, he was certain that the most anxious and
undiminished desire was felt out of that House for the
success of the Bill—(Hear, hear)--a desire unabated,
and a desire which was every day gathering new
strength. Nearly two years had elapsed since
he submitted that question for the consideration
of the House, and he hoped the House
would consider that a full and sufficient interval had
passed between the rejection of that Bill and the intro-
duction of another. The country was decidedly in fa-
y Jur of such a measure, and he hoped it would meet
with the approbation of that House also. —(Hear, hear.)
Now it should he his great endeavour to abstain from
wearying the House by the production of evidence
already so often put before them in the shape of re-
ports and otherwise. He believed that it would be a
ia(:vantage to his cause if he did not refresh their memory
upon those subjects ; but, however, ho would willingly
forego that advantage rather than appear to trespass
upon their time, and he could do so with less reluctance
as the question was narrowed to this—Could the
improvement be effected without injuring the
trade ? That was the simple proposition he
had to offer. Why, could it be denied that a great mo-
ral benefit would accrue by the limitation of the hours
of work ?—(Hear, hear.) He would, detail to them a
series of experiments connected with this subject. Mr.
Gardiner, a gentleman who had very extensive mills in
Manchester and Preston, was good enough to send his
foreman and son to London to give him (Lord Ashley)
an account of some experiments which he had tried in
his manufactory. He (the Noble Lord) put to
to them several questions, the answers to which they
had since committed to writing. They were so
exceedingly important that he must apologize
to the House for reading them.—(Hear, hear.)
Well, then, he said this country could not exist without
protection of some sort or other. But how could they
establish free trade, when the countries with which they
were associated refused to adopt free trade prin-
ciples ? Most of the countries of Europe
had their protective laws and duties for the en-
couragement of their own native industry, but when
any scarcity arose these countries went for their
supplies to the same granaries as England. When a
scarcity prevailed in this country, it was well known
that a scarcity existed in many other parts of Europe,
and many of the essentially corn-growing countries pro-
duced infinitely more corn than was absolutely necessary
for their own wants, in the hope that there might be a
deficiency in some of the nations of Europe. They had
always got large quantities of corn,which had beenproduced
at a less expense than what it would cost in England, on
hand, which would be brought into the British market
at once, if they adopted these free-trade principles, to
the detriment of the British farmer, who had heavy bur-
dens and taxes to pay. Free trade, then, applied to this
country was fallacious, and he was supported in this
opinion by all the best authorities who had written upon
the subject, who agreed that freedom of trade could not
be established without injury to native interests
in a country so artificial as England. I have tried the effect of
eleven hours' work instead of twelve hours, and I find that the
amount of work was not reduced at all, but, on the contrary,
as much was done in that time. He (the Noble Lord) then
put the question how it was that the men were able to do as
much work in eleven hours as in twelve hours? The answer
differenceri)atizineiu:rrt
given was " that the men were better able to do their work
from being enabled to have more rest at night." The next
question put was, whether the work was better done in the
twelve hours than in the shorter period ? The answer was,
that " it was most decidedly better done in the eleven hours.
The next question was, whether there was any advantage in
the work of the shorter time? and the answer was that there
was a slight increase in favour of the eleven hours over the
anyhad shorter
twelve hours. He (the Noble Lord) then asked if there was
in the
a lly t healthhien h eaanl
health
rr
from
the a s
,menthatfrom,,
they
hoursimolf'
on the domestic.d.utiAest to the reduction in the
thetie influence of the shorter period
factory said that " the men had become
the foreman of the
that the females employed themseelvoeraseamt
theore provident, and
feeling
The
next question answered was with respect to the n&between
the employers and the employed, by the change of
the result was said to be a greater degree of confidencuerse'x'isntd-
ing between both parties." He (Lord Ashley) had put
questions to others, whose experience was very great, and
the
answers to them were similar to those already read to the House,
Mr. Gardiner, a most respectable man, said that he believed
beyond all question that " there was more bad work done in
the last two hours of the day than at any other period of
labour."the There was a Mr. Noles, of Bolton,
hours of
to the
who had also made experiments, and the result of his
experience was, back
that he weuld not again go
twelve hour system.—(Hear,
he had about six months ago,
had written, informing him that
hear.) Another gentleman,
tried the ten hour's work, instead of twelve hours a-day, and
he was moat decidedly in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill. He
(Lord Ashley) had also other answers which went to carry out
f the ten hours'
1
the same opinion. Now, these evidences o
system were all from respectable gentlemen, and the House
year in
cwouldtye depma yantdheadt
T attentionhese were t o themthe
ewihpiecrhimthenetir
opforltuantce of the

Mr. ESCOTT said he rose for the purpose of asking
the Noble Lord, the Member for London, whether
it was his intention to renew a Bill brought in last
session of Parliament with respect to Ecclesiastical
Courts, and whether he would give time to persons to
make such representations as they deemed necessary on
that subject?

Lord I. RUSSELL said he would be very happy to
receive any assistance, information, and representation
on the subject, and that it was his intention to bring in
such a Bill as that alluded to.
RAILWAY DEPOSITS.

Mr. HASTIE rose to ask whether the standing order
of 1839, respecting railway deposits, was to be carried
into effect, as, if it was, the security of 10 per cent.
should be paid up, and it would embarrass the fiscal
regulations of the country, as deposits to a very large
amount had already taken place this year. Represen-
tations had been made to her Majesty's Government on
this head to the effect, that money should be lodged in the
Court of Chancery, and ifit stopped the railway mania he
had no objection to see such representations attended to.
He should mention to the House the way in which
these orders were operating upon the commercial in-
terests. It must be perfectly well known to every Mem-
ber of this House, that the whole of the commercial
transactions of this country are carried on by means of
bills of exchange. If goods were consigned to any part of
the globe—to India, South America or China—bills are
drawn, and they are paid for by bills ; now these bills
it has been the practice of merchants to discount,
thereby occupying the floating capital in London, and
enabling our merchants to buy largely and import largely.
In consequence of the necessity of making these deposits
it has been almost impossible to obtain accommodation
for bills of exchange for the last three days.
And should this continue, he (the Honourable
Member) assured the house that the conse-
quences would be most ruinous. In order that
the House might be enabled to form a small
idea of the extent to which these bills run; he must tell
them that 130,000,000/. were occupied in discounting the
bills exchanged in their commercial transactions with
the West Indies, South America, and China. Let them
stop those exchanges for a day, and there was
no knowing what the consequences would be.
He, therefore, complained of these standing
orders, as embarrassing the commerce of the country.
He thought an Act of Parliament ought to be intro-
duced which would alter :the present system, and he
would press upon her Majesty's Government the neces-
sity of making some alteration in the standing orders.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The
Hon. Member who had just spoken had taken what he
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought to be a very
incorrect view of the question. What he had complained
of had not only reference to railway speculations alone,
but to all other speculations having the sanction
of Parliament. The standing orders required that a
certain sum should be paid into the Bank of England
in the name of the Accountant-General of the Court of
Chancery. The money being so placed, was, after cer-
tain preliminary conditions, available for the purposes
of the speculation for which it had been lodged. It
was quite true, that without the sanction of the Ac-
countant-General, money so placed could not be with-
drawn. He doubted very much whether the Hon.
Member could propose any remedy for the evil of which
he had complained.
Mr. HASTIE wished to explain. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had misunderstood him. What he (Mr.
Hastie) complained of was, not that the money was
lodged with the Accountant. General, but of the great
delay, after it was so lodged, which took place before
it could be withdrawn.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
.t.llll if the deposits paid were placed in the Bank of ,
England, the person in whose name it was placed
v'ulnkl be able to draw it at an hour's notice, but if the
money was placed to the credit of the Accountant-
General, it would take a period of a week or ten days
in order to withdraw it, as several documents would
have to be prepared.
Mr. P. M. sTE'vvAn
to be placed in the —i'said, supposing the money
Bank. in names of five
of the provisional committee, they had the same
have were it placed linngl7l. individual would
it was placed there under the" authority of obfutthaitf
Rouse it would remain in the Bank,
drawn by parties possessing certain official only
be
The parties lodging it had no power to draw itu,maneltai;
became available to the Bank of England
for
commercial purposes. The Court of Chancery
would have no power over it whatever. The
purpose of the law that had been made on that subject
we to secure the public from injury, and that purpose
would be amply effected if the Bank of England re-
ceived and kept the money, with authority
from the proper quarter. No practical man
or Bank of England director would contradict
him when he said that if the money
were placed in the Bank of England under restraint, it
would not be available for commercial purposes. His
Hon. Friend, the Member for Paisley, if he were 'a
practical man, would know that all the money take]
from the circulation of this country and locked up in t
Bank of England, in the name of the Court of Cha
ery, would not be available for commercial purpose ,
Money to the extent of six or seven millions or sixt
Mr.of the
creiirseunlaotition,wotfld be thus withdrawn.'
invested. The NE s'lid that the money might be bett r
Bank
any money invested. of England gave no interest fcir
Mr. HUDSON would offer a practical suggestion to th
Chancellor of th v
eh he was persuaded
would obviate the diffienclituyere'omwhj.
edoilofi,. If the com-
panies seeking to obtain the consentain
earliament to
railway Bills, were, in place of money,
Exche-
quer-bills on stock, the above difficulty wPoulidt.leeße saw no objection to the placing of the deposits in the

Thin SUN, LONDON, FRI PAY MORN IN G, JANUAIVA 30

Massachusetts in 1845, and see what course was taken there.
it was a petition, signed by 9,131 persons, and it complained
of the excessive duration of labour ; and it should be remem-
bered, that the parties who signed that petition were in the
prime of life, who only began their work at nineteen years of
age, and continued their labour for an average period of four
and a half years, at the rate of ten hours a day. The peti-
tioners went on to say that they were confined from thirteen
to fourteen hours per day in unhealthy apartments, and were
thereby hastening, through pais, disease, and privation, dower
to a premature grave. If there was any truth—if there was
any force in that statement—how much more must
be the statement of the English operatives, who
commenced their toil at eight years of age, in
close and unhealthy towns, continued their labour to the
latest hour that their physical energies could support them.
( Hear, hear.) What opinion, he would ask, did the Special !
ommittee, to whose consideration that petition was referred,
cern,- to ? They said, we think that many improvements may
be made in various ways, and we are of opinion it would be
far better if the hours of labour were less, if more time was
allowed for meals, and if more attention was paid to ventilation
and pure air." The Committee proceeded to comment with
very great severity, and in many cases unfairness, on the stateof
English factories and the people engaged in them, and stated
that they acknowledged the claims of the petitioners, but that
the remedy was not wish them. They further ventured to en-
tertain a hope that the hours of labour would be materially de-
creased,
and they stated that they lualr; el for such alteration in I
the progressive improvement in arts and sciences—ill a higher I
appreciation of man's final destiny—in a less love for money,
and in a mote ardent love for intellectual attainment.
( Hear, hear.) Such was the report of the Special Commit-
tee.
That Committee had passed an opinion, which he (die
Noble Lord) considered was applicable in almost every
respect to the case he had brought before the House. It
would, he maintained, be well for all parties if this i
long-agitated question could be finally settled in a satisfactory 1
manner.—( Hear, hear.) If the House would not give the ,
operative manufacturers all they wanted, he hoped it would
accede a portion at least, and let the success or failure deter-
mine whether the remainder should be conceded.—( Hear,
hear.) Nothing could be easier than to repeal a law, if the ef-
fects were found to be prejudicial. If the law was not bene-
ficial,
the operatives would be the first to exclaim against it, and
agitate its repeal. Without some such management as that
which he had proposed, he was quite sure that the entire mass
of the manufacturing classes would never desist from their ef- I
forts. He assured the House the manufacturing operatives of
England only gathered strength from each disappointment.
He never knew them more unshaken in their determination, or •
more courageous than at the present time, when they were ask- , '
ing the House to concede to their just and their reasonable de- I
mand. They were fortified in their res lye by the cot empora-
neous efforts of other classes, who, by perseverance and unity
of purpose, had always been successful in obtaining the conces-
sion of equitable demands. They were also en, ouraged by
the fact that wherever they presented their claims to the
notice of the House, they had been treated with kindness. and
listened to with considerable attention. He forebure from
bringing before the House a quantity of evidence contained in
speeches and reports, all tending to prove the hardships and phy-
sical privations which the operative portion of the community
endured. He was aware that, in consequence of the non-pro-
duction of such evidence, he laboured under considerable disad-
vantage, but he was actuated in the course he had pursued, from
a desire not to trespass too long on the attention
of the House. lie had also omitted various statements, tending
to show that there would be no abatement of wages in conse-
quence of the diminished hours of labour, but that if there
should be, it would be more than compensated for by a system
of judicious economy. He did think that certain hours should
be set apart for the education of the children. It was not
only necessary that they should give time to the children to
learn, hut that they should give them time to study what they
had learned. They give, by their present system of educa-
tion, a certain amount of teaching to children under thirteen
years of age, but females, who constitute so large a portion of
the manufacturing population, and who were so important a
portion of society, were in a great measure unsexed by their
constant abstraction from domestic duties, which they alone are
best able and best fitted by nature to discharge.—( Hear. )
Sir, we did not stir up the feelings of the people as we might
have done, on this measure.—( Hear, hear. ) They did no
such thing ; and he would say, to the honour of the working
classes, that they never indulged in vindictive expressions
against any measures of that House.—( Hear, hear. ) It will
be a fatal night when you shall throw out thi- Bill, for you
will thereby shut out all hope of improvement, either social
or moral, from a vast body of people. He did ask of
them, though he should never again raise his voice in that
House, that they would be careful, lest in throwing out that
Bill, they might not widen that breach, which was already a
deep and yawning gulf, which already separated the rich from
the peer. The differences in the different grades of society
—he would rather say classes—was very broady laid down.
The numberless luxuries of mind and sense were enjoyed pro-
portionally, by almost all classes, while the poor and over-toiled
operatives were the only ones excluded from the common en-
joyment. The contrast is seen and felt, and is resented. The
repetition of these things would be useless. He had before
subjected them to their notice, and though he had but little
hope of succeeding, from the influence which would be exerted
against him, he would never desist from raising his voice for
the protection of the overtoiled operatives. For the last two
or three years he had accumulated such an amount of odium,
that he feared there was such a feeling against him, as left him
little hope for a successful termination of his endeavours in the
present session. He, however, trusted to the judgment of the
House to give the subject their most careful consideration.
Should he ha defeated now, he would however go on, never
abating one inch till he gained that happy result, which he felt
so important a question demanded from the Legislature.
Should this country wish to keep up her power, the cause of
the poorer classes should not be neglected.
The SPEAKER having put the question—That leave be
given to bring in the Bill ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, he would inform the Noble
Lord that, on the part of the Government, he was not about
to offer any opposition for leave to bring in the present Bill.
The Noble Lord had on this occasion discharged his duties
' most ably and impartially. He ( Sir James Graham) was,
however, of opinion that the Act of 1814 had gone far towards
settling the many difficulties between the employers and the
employed. The Noble Lord had stated many instances of
manufacturers who had made experiments on the short hour
system, and the results which he read to the House were favour-
able. Since the year 1833, some of the children had their
work limited to six hours, and the labour of females was in
some cases limited to twelve hours. Any person from thirteen
to eighteen years of age was restricted from working more
than twelve hours at any time. The result of their legislation
had been, that the manufactures of cotton, wool, silk, and flax
had been affected by it, and that no man would be allowed to
work in any mill for more than 12 hours. He must say that the
limitation of labour was a very dangerous experiment in a
country, which depended a good deal on its manufactures.
The Noble Lord had adverted to the state of the law in other
countries. He (Sir J. Graham) was sure that the Noble
Lord knew that it mattered little what the state of the law was
in other countries. And what was the state of the Statute-book
at Lowell ?—as, before any reliance could be placed on the ex-
ample set of a foreign country, it was necessary to understand the
circumstances under which that example was set. It was not
enough to see the law, but the circumstances under which it
was framed. The Noble Lord had brought on this question
eight or nine t men before, but had never moved it under the
present form. The Noble Lord, as he had said, represented a
great portion of the manufacturing community, and had ad-
verted to the magnitude of the question as affecting their inte-
rests. He (Sir J. Graham) did think that, while it was the
duty of the House to consider the hopes and expectations of
the working classes with reference to this question, it was
also their duty to consider the real interests and welfare of those
classes whose interests and whose welfare would be so deeply
affected by this measure. With reference to the general in-
dustry of the country this question was of paramount import-
ance ; but as his Right Hon. Friend ( Sir R. Peel) had made
a statement to the House of the intention of the Government
to remove restrictions on several articles that entered largely
into the consumption of all classes, ho thought it would
he expedient to po.tpone the decision of the House, as
the question introduced by the Noble Lord till
the sense of the Howe was taken on the proposition brought
forward by his Right Hon. Friend respecting the supplying of
corn, and the law which regulates it. Respecting the particu-
lar question under discussion, he was however bound to inform
the House, that nothing he had heard on the subject could
change his unalterable opinion ; that it was impolitic further to
interfere with the regulation of factory labour. Certainly no
argument the Noble Lord had used in introducing his proposi-
tion, could induce him to support the Bill ; still considering the
importance of the measures proposed by his Right lion. Friend
Sir R. Peel, while he (Sir J. Graham) thought the opinion of
the House should be postponed, he had no objection under pre-
sent circumstances, and considering the great and growing in-
terests concerned, in order that the Bill might he fully ex-
amined, to allow the motion of the Noble Lord. On these
grounds he consented to the introduction of the Bill.
Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND cordially supported the
Noble Lord. He recollected sixteen years ago, when the
venerable Member of the West Riding of Yorkshire introduced
the question, that it was then predicted great injury would ensue
by any interference with factory labour. He had however lived
to see legislation tried on the question, the hours of labour of
children reduced from 15 or 16 hours a day, to 8 hours, and
afterwards to 6 hours, and yet the ruin predicted had not occurred.
He thought the measures which had been adopted had been of
essential service to the country, and he thought that if another
step were taken in legislation, that a great benefit would be ob-
tamed for the community. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to
think that this was the wrong time to take this step. He must
beg to say that he took a different view of the matter, for they
were going to accomplish another great measure, and this was,
therefore, one of the most convenient seasons of all. They
were going to repeal the corn-laws. He had always been an
advocate for the repeal of the corn-laws, because he believed
that that repeal would conduce largely to the prosperity of com-
merce and manufactures. If it did do so, it would contribute
also to the demand for labour; labour would be required, and
for that very reason this was precisely the opportunity for
legislating on this great subject. But perhaps the Noble Lord
would be content at the present time to take a modification of
his measure, and if he could not obtain a ten hours' Bill, he
would he satisfied with eleven hours. There never was a time
when there was a better understanding between the manufac-
turers, aod the men than at the present moment, and he thought
the operatives would be ready to meet the masters in a com-
promise on the point of time. He could not sit down without
expressing his admiration of the conduct of some of the leading
manufacturers. Pie knew some who had tried this great ex-
periment of a reduction of the hours of labour, and they had
found that it was invariably attended with advantage.
Mr. TRELAWNEY rose and said, the Noble Lord ought
to be the last person in society to attack the rights of property.
He
hours(Mr.
th T
of labour
ela sa ney)were
thought
diminished,t
that
wageswould come down
if
and
that the Noble
Lord (Ashley) was more likely to do harm than good by his
plea. lie would not then make any other observation.
Lord JOHN MANNERS said he heard with the greatest
pleasure that no obstruction would be given to the measure of
his Noble Friend (Lord Ashley), although the corn-laws were
to be repealed. He thought the arguments of the Noble Lord
were good, and that various and sufficient proofs were given.
He would be curious to know how her Majesty's Ministers
would oppose the measure of his Noble Friend ( Lord Ashley),
after they had carried the repeal of the corn-laws. He was
convinced that they could do nothing to conciliate the feelings
of the operatives so much as the measure now proposed by his
Noble Friend.—( Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he would say,
that he would give the most determined support to the Bill of
his Noble Friend. _ .

arrived for discussing this east) he was perfectly convinced that
all the arguments adduced by the Noble Lord would be
answered to the conviction of every Member. There was one
part of the Noble Lord's speech with which he was quite erns
pared to go, and that was the erection of schools, to which
the children would be cortipelled to go in order that tl-ey
might acquire those principles which might be of use to them
in after life—those principles which would preseree them from
crime. The measure would, in his opinion, be an unjust inters
ference with the rights of capital and property. He regretted
the condition of the working classes, but he was of opinion
that the measure would deteriorate inet tad of im-
prove their condition. Besides, its adoption trysuld
materially injure the manufactures. But the Noble Lord
should bear in mind that the agricultural classes were in a more
wretched condition than any other portion of the community ;
and if the condition of these people was so lameritable, they
should adopt a measure which would benefit all alike. The
cry, •t Let industry be free," was now heard throughout the
country ; but the Noble Lord wanted to shackle industry, and
to prevent the employer and employed to make their own terms
as to the number of hours he should work, and the wages he
should receive. But coercion—and the measure was, in his opi •
nion, a coercive one—would prevent the manufacttuers from
taking steps to al.eviate the condition of the persons in their
employ ; for which purpose the combination laws were swept
away. On these grounds he opposed the introduction of the Bill,
Mr. ESCOTT said, as there would be a discussion on the
second reading of the Bill, he should take that opportenity of
expressing his oeinions at length respecting it ; but he wished
to call the attention of the House to one remark of the Noble
Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire. The Noble Lord had
stated, in reference to a former decision of the House, that it
was not a decision of the House of Commons, but a decision of
her Majesty's Ministers. This appeared to him a new doctrine
in that House. When the House of Commons, after a long debate,
rejected the measure on division, and because it was unpalatable,
to turn round and say it was not a decision of the House, hut
of her Majesty's Ministers, was most improper. He had voted
against him, and should continue to do do so, and repeated tha
that was not the way to treat the House of Commons. Theret
were persons in the country interested in this question who did
not say it was rejected by her Majesty's Ministers, but that
the Noble Lord gave up the measure.—( Hear. I Now one
word upon the principle of the Noble Lord's measure. He said
it was necessary to have some laws to regulate the terms be-
tween the employers arid the employed. If that was the case,
why did not the Noble Lord introduce such a measure?—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord quotes from the blue book in
support of his principles, but he never quoted that authority
fully. There would be found in that book many cases which
would tell against the principles and arguments of the Noble
Lord. He would never agree that such a measure should become
a law. Such a measure as the one proposed by his Noble
Friend, would have the effecs of interfering with the interests of
the able workman. He was of opinion that there had been
much injo,y dune to the able-bodied labourers by the mistaken
philanthropy of the Noble Lord.
Mr. COLQUHOUN thought it was most unfair towards his
his Noble Friend to say that he had not quoted the blue book
fully. If he were to do so, the House would be treated to
something like the American speeches, where the speaker at
times occupies the floor for a week.—( Laughter.) Now, his
Noble Friend had maintained those principles for years ; he
never arrived at a conclusion without having first weighed the
cause which led him to it. Now, because these were the prin-
ciples which the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) held
in 1833, he still continued to assert that the opinions were de-
lusions, which would very soon be dispelled; why, what
would the Hon. Member say to any one who held such
opinions with respect to trade? He would have looked upon
them as too ridiculous, and a motion to that effect the Hon.
Member would have laughed out of the house.—( Hear.)
What was the case ? they, as practical men of business, were,
after thirteen years of experience, come to the consideration
of a practical subject. In 1833 he had voted with the Hon.
Member for Montrose against his Noble Frier d. During the pe-
riod which had elapsed since their manufactures and commerce
had received a great impulse, and in the course of that time
it was a matter of notoriety that, where there had been a re-
duction in the hours of labour, wages had not been diminished,
but they had in many instances been increased. When he
saw, then, that not only was there no injury done to either
commerce or manufactures, he felt bound to act with the
utmost cordiality with his Hon. Friend ; and when especially
he saw that in this case the impulse of policy and the claims of
humanity coincided, he saw no reason for resisting the motion
of the Noble Lord. Lcok to Ireland—why was it there were
no manufactures of importance in Ireland, but because the
population were in such a state of moral depravation, and if
they were to have England in the same state of social disorder,
where, he would ask, would be their manufactures a few years
hence; and for these reasons he would ask them to vote for
the resolution.

Mr. ROEBUCK said that he had voted for the previous
Bills because the objects of those Bills were unable to defend
themselves, but such was not the case with those for whom
the Noble Lord was interested ; they were in an altogether diffe-
rent position, for they were able to defend themselves.
lie would put the question in every possible light, that the price
of labour depends entirely upon the demand for the supply of
labour, and no Legislative interference will raise the supply of
labour. The taking away of Legislative restrictions did, in-
deed, raise the price of labour.—(Hear, hear.) We have seen
within the last few years a great increase in the demand for
labour ; at present, comparatively, there was no labourer unem-
ployed. In proportion as the demand from the outside increased
the manufacturer was enabled to build manufactories, to erect
machines, and to furnish work for the labourer. The only way
of benefiting the labourer is to give full, free, and complete
development to the resources of labour. No Legislative attempt
at regulating labour will ever succeed ; but let it be left to itself
and it will prosper. He was not inclined to place any confi-
dence in the statements of persons about improving the condi-
tion of the labourer by the power of Parliament. Any inter-
ference with labour was unnecessary. Leave it alone, and it will
find its own level. A great deal had been said about humanity,
of shortening the working hours of the labourer. The regu-
lation for humanity would be easily gained. In fact, there
was no sort of regulation that would be more easily obtained

capital,
r:.:, H
andll i i
that
observedan y
in
tt
eh
rafte here n
interference
had t
o alwaysstop
p beenor
prevent
accustomedhwara ds
shhhiimi
hardship
and
ronodmb
piece
lieiexecveeor c
oitshfi
exercising
a tnihtneya.s timehe
Now, sadpla
saelbadobuotu r o
wouldf bt heea
great artisan
re a t
twenty-threeaffairs,
or
reasarsy
taghoc:,
no three men Could meet to talk over their
were hard worked, or seek for an additional shlling, with.
out being liable to be indicted fur a conspiracy. He had
grtlßiahreeiwedi
great
frtuof
station,tou rt fori
repealingt everyan
s rzio: na o
pinstancesacoat 1 where earye,
andril weretransportnd iog
ofroora
sgeooirf, gw,aigne
sa
Well, Parliament swept away all these laws, and it was made
please to work. He happened to be at Macclesfield when the
ldabotouraerrrtaoor;oeehto‘wvithmaannyynuhmoubresrtthoeytalskhoovueldr
remembered that the greatest misery prevailed there from a
turn-out for an increase of wages. He wished that his Noble
Friend would withdraw his Bill, for if this principle were car-
the short time came into operation, and he
would actually, instead of doing good, bring
'misery upon the class whom the Noble Lord
sought to relieve. He knew petitions had been presented, and
that rA 4 t i t i o vip had been signed ; but when the proper time bad

than that of humanity It was obtained without any personal
sacrifices, and without the exertion of any one of the cardinal
virtues.—( Laughter.) He would undertake to gain a reputa-
tion similar to that which the Noble Lord had obtained in a
very short time. This legislative sort of humanity was a farce
—a mere pretence.—( Hear.) When, however, it came to
touch their pockets, people were net willing to come forward
and plead the cause of labour. To pretend to he the labourer's
friend, under the pretence of a few printed words, was hypocri-
tical as well as useless.
Mr. WODEHOUSE would support the Bill, on the grounds
that some regulation as regarded the hours of labour in the ma-
nufacturing districts was necessary.
Mr. P. HOWARD thought that a further legislative inter-
ference at present with the hours of labour, would not he at-
tended with any benefit to the class whose cause the Noble

Lord had advocated. If the Ten Hours' Bill were to be put in
force at all, he thought it would be better to be put in force by
the manufacturers themselves, and not by an Act of the Le-
gislature. In agriculture it would be difficult, and in harvest
time impossible to limit the hours of labour ; and reasoning by
parity on manufacturing affairs, where any important business
pressed for immediate execution, to shorten the time of labour
would be attended with great inconvenience. He should pro-
test against the Bill being carried a further stage.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL, who was nearly inaudible in
the gallery, was understood to say he should support the Bill.
Mr. BRIGHT said, that in the course of the observations
which have fallen from the Noble Lord, he had quoted from a
report, and complained that the report had stated the condition
of the manufacturing population with great unfairness. Now,
if the Committee who had drawn up that report had compiled
their information from the speeches which the Noble Lord
had made on several occasions, he would with reason have had
some grounds to complain of the unfairness of the statements
contained in the report, as respected the labouring population
of the country. There was no doubt that all were desirous
that the labouring population should, if possible, work less than
they do at present, and that they should possess in abundance
the comforts of life, but be thought that legislation would alto-
gether fail in bringing about the state of affairs that was de-
sired, by any measure of a similar nature to that before the
House. He had listened attentively to the Noble Lord, but he
had not learned from him, that when Mr. Gardner had reduced
the hours of his workmen, that any material hens fit had re-
suited. Mr. Gardner had partially succeeded in the experi-
ment, by diminishing the time allowed for breakfast, dinner,
and tea, which, added to an increased exertion on the part of
his workpeople, had enabled him to make up nearly the usual
time of labour, and produce as much manufactured goods as
before the experiment was tried. Mr Gardner had said that
he would still further decrease the hours of labour, but he,
(Mr. Bright) found that he had not made any further reduc-
tion in the time of his workpeople, and that his manager had
stated that a further reduction was not advisable. Now, the
Noble Lord does not know so much of the working of the ma-
nufactories as he ought to know, in meddling with questions
of that nature. The Noble Lord had once called upon the firm to
which he (Mr. Bright) belonged, and although requested to
go over the factory and inspect it, he had relused. He was
rather too much disposed to listen to one side of the question,
and to get information about the condition of the manufactur-
ing population more from hearsay than from actual inspection.
Respecting the demoralisation of the factory population talked
of, he had seen a statement published by Mr. Clay, the chapl n
of the Preston House of Correction. And what did he say ?
Why, that the femalelfactory operatives were chargeable with
the smallest number of offences. There were 20 classes of
offenders, beginning with No. 1, which class was the highest
for offences, and going up to No. 20, which was the smallest,
and the last class was the female operatives. No. 19 was the
domestic sers ants, and the male operatives was class 14. This
was a proof that the demoralisation and degradation spoken of
did not exist. He might say that, generally, in the factory
districts, the evils hitherto complained of were diminishing at a
rapid rate, and that a better feeling between employer and i
employed was springing up everywhere. A general disposition
was evinced on both sides to improve the condition of those en-
gaged in mills and factories The reason continually brought
for
ward support of a Ten
some extent
thecotoi,ettrs
competition
' Bill
o w
going
on between
that it would
etweenmaaal
and mechanical power. He could say, as far as Rochdale was
concerned, that the principal parties he had heard speak in its
favour were some hand-loom weavers in the woollen trade, who
said it was a proper object to interfere with the working of the
power-loom, in order to effect an improvement in their con-
dition, and that of hand-loom weavers generally. Ile, how-
ever, would say, in reply to such a reason, that nothing could
be more disastrous to all parties concerned than any such at-
tempt to interfere with machinery for the advantage of any
particular class.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Bir-
mingham had alluded to the women working in factories while
the men were walking about, having nothing to do. To that
he would say, there was no place in England where adult la-
bour was in more demand than in Lancashire. The employ-
ment of women gave addi+ional employment to the seen, and
none could deny that the labourers in that part of the country
had a regularly increasing market for their services, and were
in steadier demand than elsewhere.—( Hear, hear.) He re-
gretted opposing the present Bill, as he knew many of the
working classes were in favour of it, though not a majority ;
but he did so, considering 'it was not for their interest that it
should be passed. He looked upon the measure proposed by
the Right
greater
Hon.boon to
Baronet at thteheheafdactoofrytheopGeroavtea thaneivrnmentas
a far
any Bill like that submitted by the Noble Lord.
That measure, with such alterations in it as he hoFed would be
made before it passed, once in operation, he hoped that the
feeling in favour of short hours of labour would spread and
become extensive in the country ; and that then the working
classes, not by combination or violence, but by rational and
enlightened means, would before many years, bring into opera-
tion at least an eleven hours system univerally throughout the
cotton and woollen districts. Uunder present circumstances,
however, he must oppose the measure of the Noble Lord.—
( Hear, hear. )
Mr VIELDEN supported the Bill of the Noble Lord. His
experienee of the factory system was at least as great as that of
the Hon. Member for Durham, and his conviction was, that if
passed, it would prove of great benefit not only to the working
classes, but to the employers.—( Hear, hear.) He could not
see the force of the objection of the Right Hon. Baronet, ( Sir
James Graham,) which had been echoed back by the Hon.
Member for Durham, that if the system as far as it had been
trier', had worked well, why was it not generally adopted. The
Hon. Member for Durham knew that it was not in the hands
of the factory workers, but in that of their employers. The
former were not free agents in the matter, or else he had no
doubt they would have done it. It was said the Bill n ould inter-
fere with the rights of property. But was not labour property ?
And was not that property entitled to protection as much as ac-
cumulated property ?—( Hear, hear.) But in doing so they
should take care that the labourer was not injured, that his in-
terest was not deetroyed. Those willing to labour should hive

both the theatre and the power to labour, but if they overworked
them their capacity and power was destroyed. Under the pre-
sent system children of 13 years of age were dragged out of their
beds at five o'clock in the morning, and obliged to go to the
factory, a distance perhaps of two or three miles, where they
were kept at labour till eight o'clock at night
Was that system of slavery to continue? Those who objected
to interfere with it, used the old hacknied argument employed
against the abolition of the slave-trade; but it was too late
for them to get the public with them. In spite of all opposi-
tion he was satisfied that ere long a Ten Hours' Bill would be
passed. In proof of the growing feeling in favour of it, he
lately attended a meeting in Oldham, at the request of his
constituents, at which resolutions in favour of a 'fen Hours'
I Bill was passed ; and at that meeting two extensive cotton-
spinners were present. These two gentlemen were previously
against the measure, but on the present occasion one of them
took the chair, anti the other spoke in favour of the object of the
Meeting, If the House would pass a Ten Hours' Bill, the
question would be settled, and the agitation cease, but not till
then.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. WA KLEY asked the Honourable and Learned Mem-
ber for Bath if, after the speech of the Hon. Member who I
had just sat done, his opinions remained unchanged. That.
Hon, and Learned Gentlemen had obtained his opinions in his
study, from books and documents issued by that House;
while the Hon. Member for Oldham, who had spoken, was
one of the most experienced, intelligent, and humane men,
and one who had ever proved himself the friend of the poor.—
( Hear, hear.) He was a pract'cal man, and not one that
would run through granite after principle.—( Laughter.) He
(Mr. Wakley) would zek the Hon. and Learned Member, if
infants were to be slaughtered?—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Wakley) had heard with much pleasure the address of the
Hon. Member for Oldham, and coming from him it ought to
have great weight The Hon. Member employed thousands of
Persons, and worked up a 100th part of the cotton imported into
thir country—(Hear)—and he was not afraid of any evil re-
sulting from a Ten Hours' Bill. He (Mr. Wakley) would call
the attention of the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir J. Graham) to
the statement of that Hon. Member, and ask him to say if he
still retained his " unalterable opinion." It was rather rash,
after what had passed the last few days, for men to talk of un-
alterable opiuiuns, seeing the great change the Government had
manifested in their former faith. He gave them full credit for
the change of opinion, but he had no sympathy with those who
denounced such a change on other questions.—(Hear, hear. )
He hoped that the Right lion. Baronet would reconsider the
question. He was sorry to hear him say he would oppose the
Bill. It was said the working classes could protect themselves,
and he thought so too, provided they were represented in the
House, for he was persuaded if they were duly represented
there, that a session would not pees before a Ten Hours' Bill
was passed. All that. the Noble Lord asked was protection for
infants, who could not protect themselves, and if that was not
the object of legislation he did not know what was. Wealth
and intelligence could protect themselves. The Hon. Member
for Montrose (Mr. Hume) admitted that he would extend
education to the mind ; and now all that was asked was to carry
the powers a little further—to carry out physical education.
In conclusion, he hoped the Noble Lord, when he introduced
his Bill, would adduce facts and arguments that could not be
doubted, and he also wished that the Right Hon. Baronet
would give a candid consideration to the question, and see it
right to give his support to the Noble Lord..--( Hear, hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE said it had done his heart good to
listen to the speech of the Hon. Member for Finsbury. His
principle was better than the principle of the Noble and
Learned Member for Bath, or the Hon. Member for Durham.
He hoped also the Right Hon. Baronet would fully consider
the questi n, and would weigh it over, as he was about to
throw the labourers of this country open to the competition of
the world. The factory operations ought to be protected, and
in this opinion he had the experience of the Hon. Member for
Rochdale, and the medical knowledge of the Hon. Member for
Finsbury-
Mr. S. CRA WFORD expressed himself in favour of the
measure. He had taken some pains to ascertain the opinions
of the opera' ives of Rochdale, and they were generally in favour
of the Ten Hours' Bill. He had, on former occasions, sup-
ported the Noble Lord, and he would cordially support him
now.—( Hear, hear.)

,
Mr. Ni UNTZ would readily admit tbat the argument was
sound that the general labour of the country should be regula-
ted. As far, however, as regarded the cotton factories, he
knew that so long as the manufacturers kept their engines at
work, so long would they keep their work-people at labour. In
the cotton districts the labour of women and children was pre-
ferred to that of men. The women were working in the facto-
ries while the men were walking about with nothing to do.
This fact he had heard from several sources, and he considered
that such a condition of things was not proper. He should vote
for the Noble Lord's motion, because he thought it would be
for the benefit of the manufacturing classes.
Lord ASHLEY said he wished to make a few remarks upon
what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Durham. The
Hon. Member had made a personal charge against him (Lord
Ashley), and he felt desirous to offer an explanation. He was
sorry to observe the Hon. Member was not in the House, as
he had particularly requested him to remain in. The year
before last, he (Lord Ashley) was residing in the county of
Lancaster with his friend the Hon. Member for Oldham.
Whilst there, he remembered he was within a short distance of
Rochdale, where were mills belonging to the Hon. Member for
Durham. (He might state that he had then been over many
mills in the country, and was thoroughly conversant with the
working of them.) Well, he did go from his friend's house at
Oldham over to Rochdale, simply and solely that he might call
at the country house of the Hon. Member for Durham to see
him, or otherwise to leave his name. Why did he do this?
Because in that very House the Hon. Member had attacked
him in a manner which he considered altogether unjustifiable ;
but as he had afterwards retracted what he had said, he (Lord
Ashley) thought that he would be, in colloquial phrase, acting
like a gentleman if he called upon him in a friendly manner.
The Hon. Member was out, and he (Lord A) saw his brother,
who asked him to look over the works. He (Lord A.) said
it was not necessary, but he conversed with his brother for
half or three quarters of an hour. It might be asked why he
had not gone over the works, and he would tell the House the
reason. Because, if he had done so, it might be said he went
there to spy some fault, or to remark upon some little mis-
management, that he might bring it again against him. He
therefore thought the Hon. Member had travelled a little out of
the record when he said that he (Lord Ashley) took a one-
sided view of the subject, because, when asked to look over the
wosks, he had refused to do so. He was most anxious to make
this explanation, and he trusted the House would forgive him
for having done so.

Lord JOHN MANNERS moved for leave to bring in a
Bill to alter and amend the laws relating to bequests for pious
and charitable purposes. He would content himself with ask-
ing leave to bring in a Bill, unless some Hon. Member had
something to say upon the subject.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. HAMILTON, on the part of Lord Clements, moved
for a return of the Police Reward Fund (Ireland), constituted
by the Act 6 and 7 Wm. IV., for the year ending 31st Decem-
ber, 1848; also for a return of the Police Superannuation Fund
for the same period.

Mr. WOISEHOUSE postponed till Monday the notice he
had upon the paper respecting highway rates.
Mr. F. T. BARING suggested to the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite ( Sir J. Graham) that it would be better if all the items
of local taxation were included in one sheet, instead of being
scattered over many documents, as they were at present.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, any one reading the admirable report
issued on local taxation would be aware that it was a most diffi-
cult subject; not less than a sum of 12,000,0001. being arranged
under twenty-two general rates, which are enumerated under
the general head of local taxation. _

Mr. F. FFRENCH wished to know if it were the intention
of Government to propose any amendment of the Poor-law of
Ireland.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that should it be necessary for
an inquiry to be instituted as regards the Poor-law of Ireland,
no obstacle would be offered by the Government. The Hon.
Member may perhaps have observed that there was a motion to
this effect by Lord Clancarty, upon the journals of the other

House.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL could not entertain a hope that
the poor-law in Ireland would bear a severe test. Even in the
most favourable time, the poor-law in Ireland had not been
able to alleviate the pauperism of that country. It was now
fated to undergo a severe test indeed, and though he (Mr. J.
O'Connell) entertained, as he had already stated, no hope that
it could do so successfully, yet he should be glad to find him-
self mistaken. It had been truly stated that that country was
within three or four weeks of a famine, and the House might
perhaps be aware that that famine was generally accompanied
by a typhus fever. He might mention that a very powerful
pamphlet had been written by Dr. Conaghan, of Dublin,
proving this fact. He entered his protest against this being
considered a boon to Ireland, or that it was anything which
Ireland had to be grateful for to that House. The people of
Ireland considered it. a small—a very small—instalment of their
right. Ireland had been robbed of a hundred times this miser-
able amount, and this he would be ready at any time to prove.
Mr. CRA WFORD said the Irish poor-law admitted of no
external relief. Now, if a famine were to take place, it would
be impossible to extend relief to all the houses, and he would,
therefore, impress upon the Government the propriety of con-
sidering what means could be taken by which a further de-
scription of relief might be afforded.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.

The whole of the clauses having been agreed to, with some
slight amendments, the House resumed, when the Chairman
reported progress, and the Bill was ordered to be printed as
amended.