The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-18 00:00:00

AUSTRALIAN LAND BILL.

The Australian Land Bill then went through Com-
mittee and the report was brought up.
THE SUGAR DUTIES.

This• Bill was read a third time and passed.
The Court of Common Pleas Bill, the Militia Pay
Bill, and the Assessed Taxes Bill, were then read a
third time and passed.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid on the table
certain papers and returns connected with the distress
lately existing in Ireland.
Their-Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, August 17;

APPOINTMENT OF MR. THOMAS GORDON.

noLon itiorEddG.oßn ofEN yesterday)TlNCii(in continuation from our After-
said—lt was a disgrace to the
have
therefore,such
gentlewmhaen-
rrnoilligaisstrtiatettol
themselves. vrejf Lancashire
r e wished,to
ther this Mr. Gordon, o
the Noble Lord at the
fhLeaand
who bad, a few of
fhtihree , Government
t h e
franded the Excise.
years ago, been convicted of having de-
ll Gordon, who
Lord had correctly stated that
roll
Lord J. RUSSELL sari that he believed the Noble
had recently been placed upon the of Lancashire
person who had been convicted, in 1831, of a fraud on the
magistrates by the Chancellor of the Duchy was the
Excise. But Lord Campbell, the present Chancellor of
Lancaster, finding that such a person had been ap-
pointed to the commission of the peace, had a corre-
spondence on the subject, which he (Lord J.
Russell) had not yet seen, but of which that
Noble Lord had communicated to him the result.
Lord Campbell stated Ora Mr. Gordon had been placed
upon fie commission of the peace without any solici-
mites of his own ; and he (Lord Campbell), therefore,
thought that it would not be right to inflict upon him the
stigma of removing him itnmt diately from the commis-
sion of the peace, because it might then seem to him
that he had been nominated to the magistracy merely
-for the purpose of disgracing him. It was,
therefore, suggested to Mr. Gordon that he should
not attempt to qualify himself as a magistrate. He (Lord
John Russell) had not, as be had already stated, seen
the correspondence; but when he had seen it he would
make a further statement to the House as to what was
intended to be done on this subject.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET detailed the cir-
cumstances connected with the appoiatment of Mr. Gordon
to the magisterial bench. An error had certainly
been committed in the selection of Mr.
Gordon, but he could assure the House that
that selection was not prompted by an impure motive.
A deputation of gentlemen originally waited upon him
before the selection, representing that, in coaseqeence of

deaths, failures, &c., the magistrates of Lancashire had
become inadequate in point of number to the perform-
ance of their duties; they presented a list of such gentle-
men as they considered fit to be appointed to the
magistracy, and amongst those was the name of
Mr. Gordon. Now, it had always been his custom,
whilst Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, to inquire
into the character of such us he nominated to the magis-
tracy, but, owing to an accident, he had not been able, in
this instance to institute an inquiry into the cir-
cumstances and character of Mc. Gordon. It had
been . represented to him that Mr. Gordon had
for many years occupied a very high and re-
spectable position in the neighbourhood in
which he resided. In consequence, however, of
a communication from one of the Honourable
Members for Manchester, he made full inquiries
into the character of Mr. Gordon, and the re-
sult was a series of communications between
himself, Mr. Gordon, and other individuals. To ascer
tain the truth of the charge as to the alleged fraud on
the Excise, he (Lord G. Somerset) wrote to the Excise
officers, and was fully informed of the suit that had been
commenced against Mr. Gordon a few years ago, for
having forged a Government stamp and defrauded the
Excise. The inquiry into the charges against
Mr. Gordon were in progress when ho (Lord
Granville Somerset) tendered to her Ma lesty
his seals of office, and he considered that the Noble Letd
(Lord Campbell), who bad succeeded him in office, would
act on this subject in a manner that would be satisractory
to all parties. That was the explanation which he had
to make. He could essure them that it had Ipen re-
pr,sented to him that Mr. Gordon was a gentlemAn
of the highest resretability, and he (Lord Granville
Somerset) did not in this matter consider himself to
have been guilty of anything more than an error, of
which any person might in similar circumstances have
been guilty.
The House having resolved itself into Committee on
the Public Works (Ireland) Bill,
DISTRESS IN IRELAND. •

Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose, and said that he took
that opportunity of calling the attention of the House to
the present state of distress in Ireland, and in doing so he
should consider it his duty to refer to what had been done
at the end of last year, and during the spring of
this year by the former Government on the subject
of the failure of the patoto crop, and whatever
sorrow he might feel in having to bring the sub-
ject of the present state of the potato crop in Ire-
land before the House, yet he should endeavour
in doing so to avoid any discussion which might give rise
to any party division or excite any controversy on the
subject. The Committee would recollect that towards the
end of thelast year considerable alarm was felt with regard
to the state of the potato crop in Ireland and some parts
of Scotland. He thought that it was unnecessary to
state that that arose from the unforeseen failure, to a very
great degree—and to a greater degree than on usual
occasions—in the harvest of a country or appre-
hended scarcity. And ha would state three circum-
stances which he thought were calculated to inspire the
Government and the public at large with very
considerable apprehension upon that subject. And
one of those circumstances was, that potatoes being one
of the chief and the lowest kind of food, the failure in
the crop of potatoes, which was the chief article of
nourishment of the great mass of the people, there was
no kind of food of a cheaper or lower description to
which the population could have resorted for support.
Such was the distinction between a country, the popula-
tion of which chiefly fed upon potatoes, and
other countries, the population of which
chiefly fed upon wheat, a higher description
of food. Another circumstance which was to be ob-
served was, that the disease in the potatoes was to a
great degree unknown; none could tell to what extent
it had - been carried, or how great the loss
of the crop would eventually turn out to be
If the crop were wheat or barley, failures would be seen
in some six weeks or two months before harvest time,
and a calculation could be made by which one
might ascertain what was the amount of the
deficiency in the quantity of the crop, and how much of
that description of food might be required trom other
countries for the supply of the people. The third cir-
cumstance which he would menti ,n was one which
was connected with the others which he had stated,
and that was, that a great proportion of the people
of Ireland were in a state verging upon des.i-
tution in a state of very great poverty and
suffering. That had been ascertained and stated
repeatedly in statistics and documents which had been
laid before Parliament. The report of the Commissioners
on the poor-law inquiry—the report of the Land
Commission, over which Lord Devon presided—the re-
port of the Commission on the census—all told them that
the greater proportion of the people of Ireland lived in a
state of extreme poverty ; that, in fecr, they did not re-
ceive wages which enabled them to pay for the food
which they required. They received wages only during
a portion of the year, and those of a very low
amount, and during a considerable portion of the
year they were fed upon potatoes of a very inferior
kind. Those reports informed them that, in the first
place, there was a great number of what were called con •
acre farmers, who rented a plot of laud conjointly with
others ; above them was another class, who, although
they were called a higher class of farmers, were
yet very little above those he had just named.
There was also another and a lower class, who were
maintained by the funds brought forward for the relief
of the country. These three circumstances were calcu-
lated to induce the Government of this country to look
with very considerable alarm at the prospect before them.
He was not adverting then to any other measures which
the Government thought it necessary to take. They took
measures which, in his opinion, were directly applicable
to these evils. The first measure they took. as he found
by a minute cr letter of the Treasury of the 9th of
December, was to order a quantity of Indian corn to be
procured by the house of Baring and Co., in the ports
of this country, or from foreign countries. With respect
to this measure, it was to be observed that it was very
wisely, and likewise, he might say, with great good for-
tune contrived that this for a long time was kept a secret
both here and in Ireland. The arrival of that supply was not
' known at the time when it came. No expectations were held
out, and therefore none were raised by its arrival, and
it had much less injurious effects in disturbing the re-
gular trade of the country than it might have done if it
had been expected. Another measure to which the Go-
vernment had recourse was to grant donations in aid of
subscriptions. There were subscriptions collected in
Ireland to a very large amount, and many of
them from some of the very poor amongst the farmers.
These subscriptions thus received amounted to the sum
of 100,0001. Another measure which the Government
took at the commencement of this session was, to pro-
pose that there should be public works prosecuted by
certain powers, and the authorities of the Irish county
sessions should be empowered to make such works, pro-
vided that one half of the expense of such works
which might be advanced was to be repaid, and that
the other half should be defrayed by grants from the
Treasury. Another measure, which was proposed and
carried in this HOUR', was, that by a general present-
ment the sums advanced for the purposes of these public
works should all be repaid within the usual time. Now
the amount, the general amount in money of all these
measures, was stated in a book which had been presented
to that House, and which was called " A Correspondence
relative to the Measures of Relief of the Distress occa-
sioned by the Failure of the Potato Crop in Ireland." The
first item in the book was for the purchase of Indian
corn and oatmeal, of which the expense amounted to
185,432/.; the second was for sums issued in donations
in aid, and was 67,9111.; the third was for works autho-
rised to be executed under the Act 9th Victoria, chap. 1,
for the relief of distress in Ireland, and was to the
extent of 452,7271.; the fourth item was a sum authorised
to be advanced under the 9th Vic., and which amounted
to 133,5361. The sth, 6th, and 7th items were smaller
sums, which were empowered to be applied in cases of
great emergency. These, with the amount taken by the
Board of Works, altogether amounted to 852,481/., and
the amount to be repaid of that was 494,851/. The sum
which had been granted and expended without the ex-
pectation or intention of repayment was 337,630/.
With regard to the evils which this large
expense was intended to prevent, and with
regard to the fund itself, there was a great deal of in-
formation which any Member of that House might find
by reading the voluminous correspondence which had
just been presented to the House. With regard to
the evils in the country, it would be found, as
might have been expected from what he had
already said, that the amount of the evil was
differently calculated at different times, and in fact
had not been as yet completely ascertained. In the
first accounts they could find it was stated that if they
took the four provinces of Ireland the deterioration of
the potato crop was about one-fourth. It was afterwards
said by Colonel M Gregor that it was estimated at
about one-eighth, and it was subsequently stated by
other authorities that it amounted to one-half of
fromi wellthe
reports, believe,
was, and
that
whicthhe
the whole crop. These sort of matters it was,
of course, difficult to ascertain, but what he thought
rwase was
aaslrae
veryad y ascer-
tained
great
failure in the potato crop, and it was extremely destruc-
tive to the crop in 1845. The disease was not one pecu-
liar to Ireland or Scotland last year—it was a disease
known in various parts of the continent of Europe
and elsewhere, and in various parts of America.
lie had before him the first statements made in 1845 by
direction of the colonists of the United States, and also
other statements made in answer to the orders of the
authorities here, from which it appeared to be a disease
known for some years in America ; it was called the
" rust." It first appeared in 1835, and in consequence of
it a considerable portion of the potato crop was lost ;
and in 1845 it became of a more virulent and destructive
nature than was ever known before. Thus far it was
ascertained that with respect to the measures which
were then taken, and of which he had been speaking,
their effect in Ireland had been exceedingly beneficial.
They were confirmed in that belief from the various ac•
counts of the effect produced by the different mea-
sures to which he hal alluded, and which showed
that places where the people were entirely deprived of
food and employment, employment and food were
afforded, and in other places where the people were
almost driven to desperation, and in a state prepared for
an outbreak—where there was danger to the tran-
quillity of the country, and a feeling of discontent—that
feeling was changed into one of satisfaction and
pleasure. One of the letters to which he had
alluded, was a letter from Mr. Russell
with regard to the state of the county of Clare ; he stated
that with regard to that-county there were a greater
number of persons employed than any other county in
Ireland—that the operations of the Board of Works,
considering the materials on which they had to operate,
were progressing satisfactorily, and that not a single'

case of starvation had occurred in the county; and, in fact,
that the people were never so well provided foras they were
this season. There were very few cases of fever—fewer,
in fact, than had been known for many years. That in-
formation was obtained from the Roman Catholic clergy-
men. The next letter was an abstract return of the
number of persons employed by the Board of Works,
and that number amounted to no less than 102,135.
With regard to that which be had first mentioned—the
measures of Government for providing Indian corn—that
measure seemed to have affored very considerable relief.
But it was to be observed that these measures of Go-
vernment, providing additional food, were doubly bene-
ficial in their effects. The care would have been very
serious in Ireland had not these measures been taken, and
had there not been food provided which could be sold at
a very reasonable rate. It had been sold in various places,
as the papers would show, at 101. per ton, and by retail at
a penny per pound. One pound of this Indian corn
was sufficient food for a strong labouring man for a day.
So that Id. per day would provide enough sustenance
for a day. With respect to the donations, they did bring
out a very large amount of subscriptions. He alluded
to those made by all classes of persons in Ire-
land to be applied to the relief of the distress.
Of course, he would not enter on the invidious
question of whether there were individuals who ought
to have contributed who had not done so ; but he must
say, that from the accounts which had been received he
found that every person who was able had contributed
to these subscriptions. With regard to persons of large
property, who undertook works for the employment of
the people, and which they managed out of their own
resources, and of which, of course, no account
had been received, or could be given to the public, al-
though they materially contributed to the relief of the
people—with regard to these works, and the sums ad-
vanced in cases of great emergency, there had been, as
he had just shown, the greatest relief afforded by them ;
but it was impossible for any Government or Legis-
lature endeavouring to meet these alarming
cases of distress, taking for the period of the
year from December to the coming in of the
harvest in August, and the employment of the people on
that harvest— it was impossible to preserve them, as
they had been preserved, from any deficiency ef food
afford to them due employment and preserve
the peace of the country and at the same
time afford that satisfaction which must be
afforded from the knowledge that the Government of
the Legislature of the United Kingdom hid been so far
from indifferent to their sufferings, that it had been eager
to supply their necessities—it was impossible to produce
these great results without some N cry serious
concomitant evils.—(llear, hear.) In the first place,
with respect to the supply of Indian corn
in the emergency which he had alluded to, and in the
cases which they had before them, it was prudent,
and it also was best suited to that emergency ; but if it
were to be considered as establishing a principle for the
Government of this country to apply the resources of
the Treasury for the Purchase of food in foreign countries,
and that food were afterwards to be sold by
retail at a low rate, it was evident that all trade would
be disturbed, and those supplies which should be
naturally a portion of the commerce of this country,
would be applied for the relief of the people of Ireland.
—(Cheers.) Likewise that portion of the local trade in
Ireland which referred to the supply of districts would
be injured, and the Government would find itself
charged with that duty most impossible to perform
adequately, to supply with food a whole people; so
likewise with regard to public works for which ad-
vances and grants were made. Although they were
in themselves beneficial, yet their effects were in
a certain degree injurious, for those people
who were employed in ordinary works, and
received abundant pay, went to these public works
in preference to the others, and thus the ordinary
operations of industry were disturbed.—(Hear, hear,
from Lord G. Bentinck.) In a letter from Col. Jones,
in page 333, he says—" That from a partial inspection
of some works in the progress of construction, it was
found that they had been put a stop to, and that some of
the great public works for the Shannon drainage were
without workmen, and that those men obtaining Is. 6d. per
day at these private works preferred 9d. on public works.
In many instances, a number et persons were tent to
those works who ought not to have been sent at all, by
gentlemen distributing tickets without proper inquiry,
end the consequence was, that those, who httherto had
been accustomed to come to England and Scotland to
assist in taking in the harvest, found that work in Ire
land for them at their very doors, sufficient to provide
for their maintenance. They abandoned all idea of the
harvest in England and Scotland, and the harvest
operations in the north of England suffered materially,
in consequence of this, and a great deal of the food of
the country was lost from there not being sufficient
men to get it in. Lady Symonds had remarked upon
this fact in a letter to Mr. Trevellian ; this was
one of the injurious consequences inevitable
from the large employment given on public works.
The accounts which the Government nere daily re-
ceiving from the south of Ireland, and various other
counties, all concur in representing the disease as far
more fearful than in the preceding year. The accounts
contained in the newspapers from vat ious correspondents
are also of the same alarming nature. It had, there-
fore, become the duty of the GOvernment to consider
in what manner they should propose to Parliament to
make provision for some employment to the labouring
classes of Ireland, and at the same time leaving, as he
trusted Parliament would leave, such a discretion in the
hands of the Government as any emergency might
render necessary in their opinion, and giving an account
of those measures to Parliament at a future time.
It had appeared to the Government that while there
should be public works, and those public works should
be undertaken under due control, that they should not
defray the cost of those works from any Parliamentary
grant, but that they should be defrayed from a loan to be
repaid by the counties. He would, therefore, propose to
introduce a Bill by which the Lord-Lieutenant should have
power, upon representation made to him, to summon a
barony session, or a county session, for works of relief.
When this session should be assemtled they would be
empowered and required to order such public winks as
might be necessary for the employment of the people and
for relief : the choice of those works to be lett to them,
and the execution of the works to be superintend, d by the
officers of the Board of Works. The choice of the works
will not, however, be left so entirely to them, as that the
approbation of the Government shall not first be requi-
site and necessary before such works can be com-
menced. It was proposed in the Bill that advances should
be made from the Treasury for the purposes of
such works when so approved, and those ad-
vances were to be repaid in ton years, and
should be at an interest of not less than three and-
a-half per cent. With reference to the mode of repay-
ment of these advances, the levy will not be made ac-
cording to the valuation of the county sessions, but ac-
cording to the poor rates' assessment ; and by that means
the burden would not fall so heavily on the poorer
classes.—(Cheers.) In very poor dstricts, however,
this system would not be practicable, and he proposed
that a grant of 50,000/: should be taken for the purpose
of giving employment in such districts, the works to be
undertaken by the Government; but those works must
be works which are of public utility, and this grantwould
not be applicable to any district except such as were
not able to undertake the expense of such works.
This was not an unusual mode ; there was a case men-
tioned in the papers which lay upon the table of the
House of a precisely similar nature, and in which a
larger amount was given by Government than was uoial
on occasions of public works. The Act of 1 Victoria,
sec. 21, contained similar provisions. He also proposed that
commissariat officers should be stationed in various parts
of Ireland corresponding with the Chief Commissariat
officer in Dublin, and informing him from time to time
as to the state and supply of food in various parts of the
country, and generally with reference to the distress of
the country. With reference to the supply of food, the
Government did not propose to interfere with the re-
gular trade by which Indian corn and other grain food
could be brought into that country. He proposed to
leave the trade as much at liberty as possible.
He believed that the markets would be best supplied
without the interference of Government. There might
be particular cases in which, as in 1836 or in 1839, a
supply of food was necesary to be introduced by the Go-
vernment ; and circumstrnces might also a; ise from the
inaccessible nature of the country in which it would not
be possible for the merchants to introduce that article.
In such places commissariat officers will be appointed
to furnish the supplies of food. He did not
propose t, interfere either with the wholesale or retail
trade.—(Cheers.) With reference to the relief commit-
mittee the Government would take care to avoid those
errors into which the late Government had fallen,
and guided by the experience they had received, ho
hoped to be able to meet effectively the serious distress
of the country, and he hoped to avoid those evils which
had arisen from members of the relief committee giving
tickets to persons who did not require such
relief. The officers to be employed would be the com-
missariat officers, and any others whom it might be
found necessary to employ would be also paid by the
Government. In stating this, he was bound to state that
the correspondence which had been laid upon the table
of the House, and everything which he had heard from
private sources, showed that there never was a work
undertaken with more zeal and intelligence than the re-
lief of the distress of the people of that country last year.
All the persons employed by the
.Government, whether
E
you spoke of Sir J. Bryan, the chief officer of the com-
missariat, or Colonel Jones and the officers of the
Board of Works, or the local persons employed, or,
generally speaking, the members of the relief commit-
tee, all evinced the utmost desire. to give nil their time
tando enadtteeanytoiounr,taost hmeurcehlieafs possible,
of the cxttion 1. distress, and also
a ff ird every light
to Government, by which this relief !night be carried
on in an efficient manner. Having said this, he should
propose to the Committee, first, to vote a sum of money
to defray the expenses lately incurred—to direct further
advances from the Exchequer—and, lastly,
to votea
grant of 50,000!. for the prousotion of public works in
Ireland, in those poorer districts to which he had alluded.
He considered that the present was a special case,
calling fur prompt attention.—(flear, hear.)therefore, think it incumbent upon the Government
He did,
and upon the Parliament to take extraordinary measures
for the relief of that distress, and he trusted that there
would be at least one counterbalancing advantage attend-
ing this distress—that it would show the poorest among
the people of Ireland that the Government. of this
country were not insensible to the claims which they
had upon us as the Parliament of the United King-
dom—(Cheers)—and show that the whole credit
and means of the people of this country should
be used, as it was their bounden duty to use them,
and as they would be used where they can to avert
famine, and to maintain the people of that country, and,
lastly, to take advantage of this state of unfortunate dis-
ease to establish public works which might hereafter be
of permanent utility to the country; he hoped, therefore,
that some counterbalancing advantages might arise
among those many misfortunes which must attend this
state a thing's, He need not detain the Committee any

longer. He could assure the Committee and the House
that he considered that his predecessors in office had
shown a laudable anxiety to meet those evils. The
remedies which they applied were remedies suited to the
occasion, and he would endeavour to imitate the spirit
in which they acted, and take advantage of the .expe-
rience which they had gained, and also endeavour to
correct those errors which were certain to attend so
unusual a state of things. He should, therefore, conclude
by moving that a grant of 175,000/. should be voted for
the payment of Exchequer-bills, and also that a further
sum of 50,0001. should be voted to defray the expense
of pubic works in the poor districts of Ireland.
In answer to a question put by Mr. HU ME,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
it was not the intention of the Government to import any
food into the country ; and read two letters which he
had received from merchants upon the subject, in which
it was hoped the Government would not interfere with
the operations of commerce, and that the supply of Ire-
land might now be safely left to the merchants, and that
if it were so, they would be able to sell India corn at the
rate of Id. per pound.
Mr. D. BROWNE thought that the speech of the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government was calm-
laced to inspire a feeling of confidence in the Govern-
ment. Ile had received a number of letters from the
county which he had the honour to represent (Mayo) con-
taining the most fearful details t f the present condition and
the future prospects of the people of that country. The
speech of the Noble Lord was ominous of much good to
the country, and he hoped that the people would inf,r
that the intentions of the present Government were to
advocate a system of generous policy for that coun-
try. The late Government had deserved great credit
for the course they had taken last year
when the distress was so great in the country.
He trusted that the attention of the Government would
be called to the necessity of doing something to put an
end to the people of Ireland devoting themselves solely
to agricultural pursuits, and that some inducements
would be held out to them to consider manufactures.
He thought the law of landlord and tenant in that
country ought to be altered, and other improvements
made, or a repeal of the union granted.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought that the distresses of the
people of Ireland should not be relieved by taxation on
the people of England, but of the landlords of Ireland.
He considered that a well-digested system of poor-laws
in that country would be productive of great benefit.
Mr. LABOUCHERE defended the proposal of the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government, and stated
that that proposal required the landlords of Ireland to
bear the burdens of that country; but, in order that they
might do so effectually, the Government offered them
the aesistanee stated by his Noble Friend at the head of
the Government. The state of Ireland at present was so
extraordinary, that it required extraordinary measures
to meet them. He believed that the course pursued by
the late Government, in sending meal to Ireland, was,
under tho circumstances, a most wise one. The
Corn Bill was not then passed, and the trade in-
corn was not then free. ' The case was different
now, and he believed it would be most unwise on the
part of the Government to make themselves mer-
chants, and in 'that character supply the people with
meal. It was impossible to see what was going on in
Ireland now, and not come to the conclusion that
it would be impolitic on the part of the
Government to interfere with either the pro-
vision or the labour-market of a country.
He trusted that by rendering it the interest as well as the
duty of the landed proprietors of Ireland to employ the
poor of that country they should have provided an effec•
tive and wholesome remedy for the anticipated distress.
Lord LINCOLN complained of the manner in which
the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the
House had alluded to the measures of the late Govern-
ment. Had they or the officers employed under them
been guilty of such a derelictien of duty as that alleged
by the Right Hon. Gentleman they would have deserved
the condemnation rather then the praise of the Nohle
Lord who had i itroduced this subject to the House.—
(Hear.) But he was happy to say the charge was ground-
less, and he believed the conduct and policy of Sir R. Ralph
was opposed by ever 3 body on both sides of the House.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that the grossest
abthes had existed in the administration of the affairs of
the Board of Works, but he could give the assertion the
nest unqualified denial.—(Hear, hear.) He by no
neans denied that abuses did exist, because it was im-
possible to prevent them, but they had not existed to
one-fifth part of the extent alleged by the Right Hon.
Gentleman. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said the
effect of the measures of the late) Government was to
demoralize the habits of the labouring population of
Ireland. Well, if they had, all that he could say was,
that the present Government was most unwisely follow-
ing the footsteps of their predecessors in office. He
was glad, however, to see that no English Member had
yet risen to object to what the Noble Lord had pro
prosed.—(Hear, hear.) Not even the most rigorous
economist of the public purse, the Hon. Member for
Coventry, had objected to it, and he was glad of it, he-
cause it would go over to the sister country that no
matter what Gosernment might be in power, the
poor of that country would be as much cared for
as the poor of England.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Under the operation of the provisions adopted by the
late Government a most beneficial trade had been
created in Indian meal, a trade which was now likely
to be permanent. But, though . this trade had been •
created and fostered by the late Government, be did nut
think that the present Government should continue to
be traders in the sense the former one had been; and he
fully agreed with the course that was now proposed to
be taken. Under the circumstances, so satisfied was he
with what the Noble Lord had stated, that he (Lord
Lincoln) would not ask him any qeestions as to the
details of the course he intended to pursue, hlt.., would
rest satisfied with the exslanations he had given in his
speech. He must, however, before sitting down, bear
his testimony to what the Noble Lord had stated re-
specting the praiseworthy manner in which the officers
employed under the Government had carried cut their
arduous and difficult duties. No body of men could
have acted in a more becoming manner, and he hoped they
would be continued in any future effort to be made to
meet the exigencies of the people of Ireland.
Mr. LABOUCHERE explained that in the obsetva-
tions he had made, he did not for a moment intend to
- impugn or underrate the policy and measures adopted
by the late Government, but he only rose tc point
out the danger and difficulties that surrounded the fol-
lowing out of such a policy beyond meeting the urgent
necessities of the case under which they then acted.

Mr. HENLEY sa'd that after the statement of the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland it
was impossible to infer whether the measure now pro.
posed was to be temporary or not. America had already
for four years suffered from a failure in the potato crop,
and the potato disease there had not yet disappeared.
In Ireland the people had already suffered two years
from the potato disease; there was no probability of that
disease being yet extinguished ; and hewas afraid that
in future years further relief would have to be sought
on behalf of the people of that country by the British
Government. This proposal would show the Irish people
that the Government and people were more favourably
disposed to them than they got credit for. He hoped
that more permanent measures would be taken in the
eneuires cession tor the relief of the Irish people.
Sir D. NORREYS wished that the Legislature of this
country would in future sessions bring forward such
measures for the permanent relief of Ireland as would
remove from the people of that country the necessity of
coming to the British Legislature in the character of
supplicants.—(Hear, hear.) Ireland had mines of the
most extensive and valuable descript,on—it had rivers
peculiarly adapted for commerce—and yet, in conse
cpienee of the Legislature not looking to the subject of
the improvement of Ireland in a proper light, all those
natural resources of wealth and comfort were allowed to
lie waste and useless.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said he was pleased to hear t'sat the land-
lords of Irelaud were prepared to provide for the neces-
sities of the people of that country as far as possible, by
the encouragement of public works.—(Hear, hear.) The
measures of relief hitherto granted to Ireland by the
Government had most signally failed in their object. The
Irish people were as wilting as Englishmen or Scotchmen
to work, and he therefore would ask whence came the
poverty of Ireland? It owed its origin to the misrule of
that country.—(Hear, hear.) As long as England in-
flicted poverty on Ireland by their misgovernment and
oppression, they had a right to pay for their tyranny
and oppression. The Government was bound to assist
the country gentlemen of Ireland in giving employment
to the people. Let the present grand jury system, as
well as all other pernicious civil institutions, be at once
abolished, and then there would be hope for the people
of Ireland. It would then arrive at the peaceable, happy,
and contented condition of England , and Scotland.
Let every law that was fit and applicable to Enelend be
extended to Ireland, and then they would hear very
little of " distress in Ireland."—(H, ar, hear.)
Mr. M. MILNES said that all eleniosynary grants of
this kind establisned very bad and corrupting principles.
He perfectly concurred with the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose, that it was at once the duty of the English Legis-
lature to place Ireland on a footing similar to England
and Scotland in respect of its laws. He believed that it
the-landlords of Ireland were assisted by the Legislature
in improving their estates, they would he conferring in-
caculable good upon the people of that country. The
people of England were undoubtedly willing to make
:;real sacrifices for the relief of their Irish brethren ;
but they must, nevertheless, tell the landiords of Ireland
that it was their duty to conduct themselves, towards
their dependents, in the same manneras did the country
gentlemen of England. The landlords of Ireland must
retrench their luxuries, and devote themselves to the
improvement of their country.
Sir R. FERGUSON said he considered that they
should make the electoral divisions of unions responsible
for the sums recommended to be laid out in them. He
thought this the only means of reguleeing the expendi
tune of the money in a way to be apvantageous to 'the
people. It would not be well to entrust its expenditure to
the Poor-law Unions, on account of the difficulty of electing
Guardians. The Board of iiVorks of Ireland had shown
themselves utterly incompetent to properly' manage the
works entrusted to them. IL, imagined they had done
their best, and as a proof of this he must quote a
passage from their report:—" Many works were coine
menced without necessity," and again that the sums they
had paid for labour were inconsistent with the amount of
labour which they had received in return.--(Hear.)
He thought it was most unfair to make statements
against the landed proprietors of Ireland, without.without.giving proper data in support of them The Noble
Lord (Lord Lincoln) had made Use Of.
twoanony-
mous statements, which he thought most unfair,
unless those statements could be fullyt substantiated.
doubt h
Mr. B ESCO IT had no do the intentions
both of the present and the late Goyea.nment were for
the futura prosperity of Ireland, and
the only question
fir the House to consider was the manner in which those
inter.Nons were proposed to be carried out.—(Hear.)
Now, were there not ordinary means for n carryl' fr them
without having recourse to special enactments,
which were unprecedented in the political history of the

country?—(Hear, hear.) Did the Noble Lord ever hear,
or could he point out an instance in the history of this
or any other country, where restrictions were placed
on the importation of provision in a time of
famine or scarcity ?—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
He said this was a very serious matter. Suppose the
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn were put into power,
why, the first course be would take would be to rein-
state the old law on the importation of corn. There
were still heavy duties on beans, peas, and
rye—all important elements in food. Surely, he
said, the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government would not continue these duties
at a time like the present—a time of starvation. Sup-
pose a hundred persons should die of starvation during
the recess, what, he asked, would the House, what
would the public, say of the Noble Lord and the Go-
vernment ? They would immediately ask why they
had not removed those duties from the statute-
book. The distress was not confined to Ire-
land. 'He had had a communication that
morning—he would not trouble the House
with it—but the potato crop, according to that letter,
had failed in various quarters. What, then, would he
said if the people of England were pressed to the verge
of starvation, it not to starvation entirely ? The late
Secretary for Ireland, nhen he moved to introduce iiii
Indian meal into Ireland was in these circuinstaecea
—it was prohibited altogether ; and the
Honourable Member for Wolverhampton the other
night was in the same absurdity as the Right Hon.
Baronet pointed out before, when he remarked that
Indian meal was at the same duty as barley ; but that
being removed peas were in the Lame absurdity. He
hoped the Noble Lord would not continue that state of
things, especially during a time of starvation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCLIEQUER said, it
was with the greatest satisfaction that he had heard the
speech of the Hon. Gentleman opposite, and particularly
that of the Hon:Member for Mallow. It was satisfactory
to the Government to hear that it was the intention of
the Irish landlords to co-operate heartily with the- Go.
vernment in the promotion of public works in Ireland.
The present Government were much indebted to the
wisdom of the late Government, for the present mea-
sure. The late Government had had the experience of
eight or ten months in providing for the distress in Ire-
land, and it would be absurd to say that
in the course of that time they did not
propound measures of great improvement, which must
naturally have suggested themselves to those officers
whom the Government had appointed to make a full
inquiry into the condition of Ireland; and if there
were any excellence in the present measure, it, was
owing in a great degree to the praiseworthy exertions
and wisdom of the late Government. He
could not agree with the Honourable Member be-
hind hm, that the measures of the late Government
for the relief of Ireland, had turned out to be failures.—
(Hear, hear.) By the evidence in the blue book which
then lay on the table of the House, it was
proved that had it not been f r those vry
measures the people of Ireland would have been
subjected to the greatest distress.—(Hear,. hear.)
He did not hesitate to say that in many parts of the
country the existence of the people was owing to the
measures of the Government—(Hear, hear,)—and not
only was the existence but the peace of those people
to be attributed to the same praiseworthy exertions.—
(Hear, hear.) And with regard to the food which had
been introduced into that country by the Government,
he believed it had caused a new state of things
in that country, If Honourable Gentlemen read the
public papers, they would find that, in consequence o'
the Indian corn that was continuously being poured into
the country, the country had received art incalculable
amount of good. Indian cern was cheaper and more
nutritious food than potatoes; it was much cheaper than
oats, and he confessed that be was sanguine in the ex-
pectation that the substitution of Indian core for potatoes
would produce a complete revolution in the social con-
dition of the people of Ireland.—',Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman, who, was heard very indistinctly
during the whole course of his address, then proceeded
to say, that he should be extrt mely sorry if he antici-
pated that the measures of tne late Govarnment, and
the measures proposed by the present Government,
were intended to be permanently established
in Ireland. Those measures, in a great degree,
arose from the failure of the pnta'o crop, and the conse-
quent distress of the people. The state of things was
temporary, and had been and must therefore be met by
temporary measures. The Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir
R. Ferguson) complained of the way in which the Board
of Works was managed. The operations of that
Beard in Ireland were in the course of last year
greatly increased, and without any lengthy notice ;
and were taken for the purpose of relieving
the people of Ireland frctn the pressure of distress
caused by the failure of the potato crop, to ensure the
supply of food, and next the employment of the people,
by putting into their pockets the wages of their labour.
In this way the people of England had paid half the ex-
pense of these works. They were not, in all cases, works
absolutely necessary at the time they were undertaken,
but adopted as a commendable mode of relieving the
people by employing them and by 'paying them in that
way for their labour; and there was a distinct rosier
issued by the Treasury, that the propose I works to be
undertaken were not to be comineneed without the
existence of distress, and not to be carried be
yond that period. The works were, as he had
said, undertaken hastily, when, in many cases it
was utterly impossible to know their exact extent
or cost, He trusted- that they might profit by the ex-
perience they had thus obtained if a similar necessity
should arise. They were carried on under the superin-
tendence of officers appointed b the Board of Works,
which was a guarant .e that they were under prop
stirerintendence. The sole object of those toe-sores
was to pat money into the hands of the di tresed, but if they
put the directions of the works into the han s of private sur-
veyors and contractors, they would render their intentions in-
opperative. He did not think that relief cont.l be carried out
upon an extended principle unless the local gentry would ac-
tively co-operate with them. They were most anxious to avoid
introducing the machinery of the poor-law into the applica.
ticn of these measures, as they wished to trea, it as a mere
temporary emergency, nor did they wish to prejudice the
question of a more extended and liberalised system of the
poor-law to Ireland upon the principles of the English par-
law. And the Government felt that if they did pursue such
a course they .would have prejudiced that question which he
hoped would soon come before the Hou,e for discusson.
He must say, that those officers had conducted the operations
under them in the mo,t efficient manner. He was quite cer-
tain, that in any future operations for the relief of the condi-
tion of the people of Ireland, these gentlemen would be found
most invaluable assistants. While the Government was de-
sirous of finding beneficial employment for the Irish people, it
was their desire that, in the main, the assistance to be given
should come from the country itself, and th.. t the relief of the
distress should not depend entirely upon what aid the Go-
vernment might be disposed to bestow.
Mr. M. GORE approved of the measures Government were
adopting towards Ireland, and strongly recommended them to
pay some attention to the fizheries of that country. Let them
continue to pursue a liberal policy, and the union would be-
come a blessing instead of a curse upon the sister ceuntry.
The vote was then agreed to.
. . . .

Mr. ESCOTT, on the vote being put, said, as he had got
no answer to his question, he begged to ask the Noble Lord to
consider the fact whether he had ever read, in the history ot
any country, of a tax upon food when the Government waa
announcing famine? And he gave notice that he would in-
quire to-morrmv whether the Noble Lord was to continue the
laws restricting the importation of corn during a time of
famine.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he thought the Hon.
Member had given sufficient answer to his own question. He
had said, he 3U pposed the House considered the question settled.
Now, if the Hon. Member supposed this, and if the
,House
was also of opinion that the question was settled, he felt he
ought not to interpose in any matter which was settled.
The vote was then put, and agreed to.
The other votes were agreed to, without remark, and the
House resumed.

The report was ordered to b brought up to-morrow.
GREAT BRITAIN AND THE SPANISH COLONIES.
On the order of the day for going into a Committee of
Supply,
Lord G. BENTINCK rose, and said, ho had to apologise
to the Noble Lord for having returned from the country to
trouble him on that occasion, and he sincerely sympathised
with the Noble Lord toiling at that season of the year, and he
cvasisoiry to increase his labour. But. he was sure he would be
borne with by the Noble Lord, and the House, in calling the
attention of her Majesty's Ministers to the trade between this
country and the colonies—a motion of the greatest importance.
It was a grievance of many years endurance, a matter on
which the merchants of Liverpool had continually remonstrated
sr twelve years. In 1835, they applied on the subject
in vain, and in vain complained to the Duke of Wellington,
then Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. They made
frequent remonstrances to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
and after changing the Whig Government, from 1842 down
to the present time, it had been a matter of repeated and eon-
tinu•il complaint with the merchants of this country that by
the regulations of the Spanish Government—by the non-
reciprocity of that Government to the free competition to
which they had admitted their ships into the whirl, ofl this
country, they had not lost the whole, but ve7
er
colonies. He (Lord George Bentinchk)
part, of the carrying trade between this cihmoridtroymaati:t,t3ltot tefsSeeptlriish
emmaonsnfer apologiserw
hiocnh thishe
brought these matters be
House—impertect as always was
have to address the House. It was only within
occasion for the more than usually imperfect manner in which
he would it—but he
the last few days that his interposition had been
requested by the merchants of Liverpool to endeavour, under
the present circumstance, to make some new effort v. ith her
Majesty's Government to exert themselves under the Spanish
Government, to see that justice was done to B itisb interests.
It would be wilt more than his usual imperfectness that he
would address the House on this subject, because, in the short
time since the request of the merchants of Liverpool, he had
stnhooebt ableHebeeofe,unsoen, d
rrßthuoi
te ahho
he through
shouldhroi
juuggh h haveh
tohs those t
p,
rfe returnsfor
rrtrhe
edpurpose
rhtconnectedphao;vsseesubject,
oaTcb
laid before
tiintigs
t
Nhliamjesttoy'slayMbin,fi3streersth
twheeuladttbeentsiuoffin
coiefaheforr
to
e-oHotse tuhePet'it
infor-
mation which regarded former years, whilst he stated that
there had been no change iu the circumstances co
this carrying trade. He would begin then by stating
n ec, ed withte
y
House what the difference was in the charges on
geode t
carriedo t
in British ships and those carried in Spanish ships,
and having pointed out to the House the great d ff ,rence in
the amount
of duty, and to the restriction of the British carrying
trade he would show to them what were the effects f that sys-
tem. He held in his hand a statement—it was owe that was
laid before his Grace the Duke of Wellington eleven years
ago, but it remained good up to the present time—it was a
statement of the amount of duties that would be charged upon
the merchandise and cargo sent from the port of Liverpool,
and the goods that were sent from the ports of Spain. The
value of the goods exported from the port of London was
19,075/. It consisted of 1,000 bales, valued at 150/. ; of 1,000
yards of cloth, valued, at that time, at 100/. ; of 1,000
yards of linen cloth, valued at that time at 100'. ; of 1,000
pieces of other fabric, valued at 800/.; and a quantity of other
goods. Upon the vessel reaching the Havannah the diAinc-
live duti-s levied were 21i per cent. on goods imported in
Spanish ships, and 3 * tier cent. ad twicrurn upon good,,
landed from British ships. To make up the cargo
100 pieces of printed ca ico, valued at 5001., of 1,000
pieces cf other fabric, making a sum total cif 1,975/.
The duties levied at the Havannah upon the goods imported in
Spanish ships amounted to 582/. lei. 5d.; hut if they had been
imported in British ships the duties that would have been
charged would have amounted to 826/. Os. 651.; making the dif•
ference no less than 243/. Bs. 9d. upon the same goods if im-
ported in a British instead art Spanish ship. This discrimina,
two in dntios ilmtved anyther discrimination in tolls. which

-

were imposed at different parts of that country. The pore
dues at the Havannah were five ryles a ton on British vessels;
12 ryles upon foreign vessels ; six ryles a day for every rUis
tons of Spanish shipping, and 10 ryles a day on every 100 tte,na,
of foreign shipping. The result of all these duties wag, in
it rendered it so much the more advantageous to export gr.
`-
that
Spanish ships than in the ships of this country ; with
whilst in Ina no such thing as a Spanish skip
British goods was seen in the port of Liverpool, at the pt,
moments they were nut unfrequent. The difference et !„1";
duties, as he said before, on the real value of British
exported from this country, amounted to this, that it was 411.
6d. per cent. when exported in the ships of Great Breit%,
loaded
went
and 29/. Sc. 6d, when expelled in the ships of SP
This grievance had endured for more than twelve 17173
America felt the grievance as well as England---(
Spain had endeavoured to run her rigs" upon the etre:o4
cans, but they were keen enough to resent the attemPt ;1,0 of
within two months they introduced and carried a neeasfieo of
restrictions equal to those placed by Spain on the suaedee
America. But, while Spain carried out these unfair.nusuio
upon English ships, England had placed no diserint
Hear, hea!ri.!
duties whatever upon Spanish ships visiting her ports.o.lt,,ery
true they paid a heavier pilotage, but upon their go us`"de,
was no disitinction. In 1838 the following wasistioebo
t. of
Oared value of cargoes of various kinds, coos
earthenware, glass, hardware, iron, coal, aud, stir
of unmanufactured goods of all kinds, compris'n6ooo.•
plies from all the manufacturing branches of to f tbe
try. In 1838 the total declared value 4 ore
goods exported to Cuba, was 462,9271. ; of this trarmericeo
was carried by the ships of Great Britain 61,4871., by 718315,
ships, 92,751/., and by the ships of Spain, 318,534. Grea6
of the declared value of the exports to Cuba, the shipajespoisb
Britain tork 35,9171. ; American ships, 69,9031. ; and
°b 0360
ships, 265,106/. In 1841, the next return he had °,,"‘,0360
the declared value had risen to 518.399!.. of which 0. `,);, bf
0 401 ip
Was carried by ships belonging to Great Britain. 4-, th
American ships, and 428,264/. by Spanish ships ; -slter
fact, the ships of Spain carried 13 times the arneuu",e FR'
ships belonging to Great Britain. This was the effect Jog
mating the ships of foreign countries on the same f°°ololl
those belonging to Great Britain. He had obtained ne fifer
since 1841, but he knew what was going on at present sting foi
pool. He learned that there were six Spanish ship! les boll
the Havannah there, and hut one British ship.—( Ilea/ Jr,
The British ship measured 176 tons; the six Spanieru'oela'
tons. This was the state of British commerce at Lilerrrb etheee
this moment, in consequence of the great advantages ei
Spaniards had over the British trader. Now, he eller tbe
this was Ilia appropriate time to bring the subject ea 0 tila
consideration of the Government, because they were °wale)
eve of -making a great alteration in the sugar duties'esre
would increase the payment of this country to Spain %pee!
million per annum No deubt the greater part of the • ighlY
„
would be paid in the goeds of thi.i country, and it icasta the
ol
important that Government should take this matter 4'oool
serious consideration.—(Hear, hear.) He would ree°o3iteu:
her Majesty's Ministers to follow the examole 4.f the [{igluStates. There was a new doctriee proposed by °alai VP
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth—that it trader'
neath the dignity of this country, or rather of the freed olte,
to haggle in commercial poky. He said he disagreasentia'
that entirely. and thought that if it was vulgar, it vies ;1,06
to covenant with foreign countries for boons, before g't to it'
offered by this. It rrielit be :stated,
~ate „ea
that we ought C° 03 ig
tempt to bully foreign countries into a ss-teettrol
concurrence with our owls views, but he eis
for one, that they ought to look to the ietero of
Great Britain solely—( Hear, hear)—as lung off lei
were consistent with the principles of honest,' atioba'e
tice. His Noble Friend, above all men, would have Erie. ,01*
right to insist upon speedy justice, because his Nob` sissies
when in of in former times, never shrunk froth Loom
upon the rights of England, however strongly, 91.„., deaVe,
powerful the courts might be with which it haw,'n.
( Hear, hear. ) He feard not France, and he (Loy", cr:f
tinck ) thought that the Noble Lord should have no lie Toot"
pressing this matter upon the attention of the Gover,;(ssep
„pain, and insist that forthwith Spain shall remove ogi
criminating duties which were imposed Upon the shills spiroi
in the carrying trade of the people of England to thesbete
colonies, and the practical effect of which would be (I:tel'
theships of England from the carrying of sugar fronseeertest tof
land. If things remained as they now were, he feared out
effect would be that those ships which were thrOn•i•ofyin,l4
the West India bade, and also out of the trade of 111311,rali cw:a
rivalry in sugars brought from Spain and the Brazalteofor
nisei, would find no employment to support their tra°l. cote
eying sugar from the Havannah and Porto Rico to thht'd Pa"(
try. He thought, therefore, that on this subject l'efijoseed
no more than his duty, and be hoped be would be Ps'oilst
the House for having trespassed upon its attention, „joila
called that of her Majesty's Government to the great ass ea
under which the shipping intetest of Great Britaitt
labouring. eed bleie
Mr. AiILNER GIBSON said, the Noble Lord :1, to , •
offered no apology to the thirsts fir calling its attent", Pao
subject which he had now brought before their note.''or Wof
subject of more importance to the shipping intetr,'_gessioo4
country could scarcely be brought under the consiae„t sbeL
the House. The Noble Lord had correctly stated that
t time f
Cubaa tariff prevailing at the presen
Cuba, and that it bad existed there " _hips
had
; and that by favouring the Mauritiusbe._3o/ir,
had well nigh excluded the British ships from t „
trade connected with that island, both with refere;?th to
importation of manufactures with Cuba, and al But the bid
rence to the exportation of produce from Cuba. ,
cent changes which had taken place in that tariff, I_l. bero
' had had effect since the Ist of March of the presernt
,c-ottritble,is
in some respects, made its operations more Ilntee'ndea to "et.
British a oerests, whilst in other respects it bade dues, theced
tigate its effects. With reference toe onn.aegeee had 10$0
, had been a change, but that change xpetra%f England pet a 0
had worked more favourably to the inteee:
ed previous to telP,
intrg
; was antici iated, for the change was gcdifference betteel
regulation with respset to the comeenS
the tonnage as measured by
the SPanairsi the Spaniards told
by the laws of Great 13ritain
whether they 11,1,1-tiof
them
had the option given onnaee
additional t 6
pay twenty-three per cent. with the SP Ib6
and as mi asebr;
or submit to be measured in accordance
Spanish laws, had found that the tonnage dues e,io
laws. Those who had submitted to the measurehmadn',l;
favourably for British interests; and so, though Ils?'"'bete
there appeared a difference, thete was nothing in reallti,b tea
• mitigation of duties. The statement was not true 07.0' ei
spect to duties on goods imported in British and othere-britg:
ships, but it was true with respect to the duties impose duties'
quarantine laws. In both these cases the diff,rential heeo
, with respect to England and other toreign countries, had poke
increased ; and in the case of the quarantine lawajtirspaany
feet+ true, as stated by the Noble Lord, that though
ships paid the same quarantine fee, British and ott e
floor.,iott
countries were required to pay twice as much.--( ifidecilife
The Noble Lord c told not wonder that this apparente d
should have existed, on the part of Spain, to rentovketel'ause_l;
rential duties on British ships and
would be in the recollection of the House that, °PI 04,1"
British goodS, a `erg
recent occasion, when there was an endeavour, goalie sledNotravaernot tee;
Spain, to piece such a construction on the co
between this country and Spain, as would have
uentrY es
goods of Spain to have been brought into this ce „.aiined.sy
goods of any other foreign country, the England ides
sanction such an interpretation of the duty, and, innd all lof
distinct and emphatic manner, entirtly reputlia7 ruettPrict
that there existed anything to prevent reTPOO io at ot
intercourse such as trually took place het wren nat'°l7oa virascor
amity with each other.— Hear.) That he tedie _
our
any rate, the construction placed by Parliament euaroo ot`be
nexion with Spain, on the recent question the, ogee, the
respect to Spanish ra-es. Span de handed tha'iand all r'
growth of her colonies, should be admitted into Eng lse r
.• .1; a
same rate as t-e sugar of other fo eign tries• thit
, fused to admit this claim. He did not mean to sap boa Pad
land had conceded that claim, that Spain would /1'1%045' old
eluded from placing higher duties upon Vritish et he eel)
upon British ships, than upon her ow.) goods ine
safety say, laid a more liberal and hirger construe beeeard,
paced upon these treaties, it would have gone far !,0s ohie's
. duces! Spain to have acted in a more kialy sPl'eeS tiG
British commerce, and reduced the differential (in Atlan,a,
affected British ships and British goods going into ills Ocetellifi
It was not for him to state what course In r ejestYihet hfe or&
merit would take, but he took npon himself to saYreableY
not think that it would be the one suggested by the ,elf
namely, that of retaliation. h to
After a few words from Mr. M. GORE, whic
impeefeetly heard in the gallery, • ea 'IV
Lord PALMERSTON said that his Noble Erie s *toil
bear in mind that the grimed Which any GovernipeT dare
take, in remonstrating against a fact of this kind* ”r2coe°,ite
on the terms on which they were with respect to taaved SP op
There was no recip• °cal treaty between Engler-A reir
which would entitle the English to demand that 081 feed, of
in Spanish ports should be placed upon an eq°,3001,,,
with Spanish ones ; but her Majesty's Goverurne%o oPrsble
course, feel it their duty to take advantage of the eanifaeoer fee
tunityof endeavouring to place Engli,h vessels on acted tile!
• a footing as possible in Spanish ports. He objeesibe if
principle of retaliation laid down by the Noble Lord;oult'hiels
not think that it would likely to lead to any good rn-on 4:4
there were good grounds to think that the country ti,rdiee'ah.:
the retaliation was to t,ke place would yield to it ang ee.,. to 6 4
then the prospect of ultimate good might induce ther7y te:itts
mit to a temporary evil. He was, however, very °Peed' ell
that experience showed that such measures were att.e, be too
no good result, and he thought that the object would
better effected by peaceable measures.e of retalietlia
Mr. DISRAELI thought that the Prine'P a The ret,;as
had not been well laid down by
mien must depend on circumstances
for
rnot unintentioooo,
Noble Lord had confounded —perhaps
article of,:ooe
—retaliation, or a •retaliatory duty on an
..cie or or
its success. Al
mercial exchange, with a retaliatory duty on an arta
edogytha
meree with another country. There was 'no goeir the
the Noble Lor .
similarity between the two instances. In order 0 troll' gas
port of the principle, he would refer to a rettto it, "0
port of Havannah, dated July 18, 1846, from eln „ort
peared that the number of American ships in that r ,be lss
nearly five times that of the British sh ps, During litPrie
twelve years the United States hail been !iirstsine seems
policy with regard to Spain; and we, whop had been g'
vloont,trl;
Spanish ships the same advantages this He
were now entirely excluded from the earrYing trade' are P.l3'
seueendviiinmEedn,gtitalantd,ifitthweopuridinieniptlheeof
endtheabs United shipsinnitendi Seoitfya
tester fit
ti sh ug nh ttr .„ cr bet
a.
co
Anilmr.erl(l'eUfr.l4lEth ythat the principle reta"au nano., iv
rif tioat
one which ought, it at all applied. to beHavavenbit ;tueri
n.-
applied very a 0.4
Thit country did not take thethe stuars of
was not to he wondered that there should be 00rf •

vessels in that
FpLorot
GthGaniNofli
IfsTILFIENArrx• rober o°
Mr. WILLIAMS moved for a return of the 11.° „olio
corporal punishments inflicted on the crews serving elle ye,3,;
her Majesty's ship:., of war in 'commission, in each "i 0 0145,
1::334 to 1845. both inclusive ; also the number of 01egiatedi,
to corporal punishment, and the number of lashes L.,P vibe ~,e
each ship in each year; alio), the number of seallte7, of tit'of
sorted from her Majesty's ships in commission in ef„,ooet,
years; also, the amount of prize-money, or tr01"..70 eh
1_,..
petbhc money, received by each of the ordinarycommander' go'll
captains, commanders, lieutenants, and able and ,cte,s_ot
men, who served in her Majesty's ships at Navarine,
vr"ohlt,
in China. In the pi esent state of the House, he
tent viiTbe
press his motion to a division. He would be c°llbect ill
cotrettl-ethmeTnte
similar return to that granted upon the same subject
,
gee
army.
Ad viral DUNDAS then laid upon the table 4 the
some returns relative to the. subject. „e be',
TREAIY OF cn.tcow• „dal— ,ob
Mr. HUME moved for copies of any
tw en the Government of her Majesty and the Got rie opo ta,
Cracow, Russia, Prussia, or Auittria, relative to t
the (feet.,
ment of a British consular agent at Cracow sin.es ~. floe%
ration made by the Minister of Foreign Affairs tl."' oello,
of Commons, in the year 1:336, tif ,13 Craelth
tion of sending a c,,t,sui to reside 3ursuea elm
He regretted the course which this country hail F_,l,„ to the
reference to Cracow. He thought it cliscrech_ate"es or 't)",
G tverninent of this count', ; they were gua,rau 5 4,10u1d
.0
liberties of the profile of C;acow, and those Pledge ;ep taken
faithfully kept. Ho should be sorry to see "drat be re, at
which might endinger the peace of Eurore, but Lered,,
thought the su'iject should be explaitied by the 'lO,, bort lb
the head of the Goveinment. He thoug.4t. the 9.
_ad, s:t'l_.o
ness of this country had allowed those treati.eb ;bile 11,
other countries to be broken; stood Y foroaehell6,
wrongs were enacted, and instead of intostanciing
their !I:ft
prevent these violations they had shrunk Hort. Alc— fa
The till
seemingly half frightened to interfere. t„to Oa
01011 went at sem length int* the trestle* entereo i.•
they had

WiF;FT,