The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS, JULY 26.

In consequence of the vote of last night, the House,
even before five o'clock, presented an unusually animated
scene, there being a fuller attendance of Peers at that hour
than at any former period of the session ; the ladies' gallery
as well as that allotted to strangers, was very full. The
Ministers did not take their seats till half-past five,
and in the meantime their Lordships bad formed themselves
into numerous groups, and were earnestly engaged in
conversation. The spaces below the Throne, and under
the bar of the House, were filled with Members of the
House of Commons.
kfter some petitions of no public importance had been
presented, there was a general cry for " The order of the
day." After that had been read by the Clerk,
Earl GREY rose and said--My Lords, I am now pre-
pared to proceed and lay before your Lordships the
amendments which I propose to make in the Bill now
before us ; but before doing so, I wish to advert to
what passed last night. I will not attempt to con-
ceal from your Lordships the regret I feel for the decie
sion the House then came to: The circumstances under
which the division took place, and the appearances at-
tending it were such as to place his Majesty's Government
in a situation of very great difficulty and embarrassment
—(Hear, hear)—and I therefore thought it was my
duty—that it was necessary, for me to take time to con-
sider in what manner it would be my duty to act, after
that adverse division. My Lords, the amendment, in
my opinion, is not of very great importance ; the
effect of it is merely this—that, in the first instance,
there was a limitation of those funds, arising
from the parishes in which service has not been performed
for three years, to the Commissioners ; but that if it
should appear to the Commissioners that it was not
necessary so to use those funds for the purpose of
the parish, :inn they were to be transferred to the
general management, and be used as might be most expe-
dient. That, my Lords, I understand tc be the meaning
of ;he amendment, and I do not know, except under the
circumstances in which that vote was passed, that the
effect of it will be to materially alter the discretion
of the Commissioners. On reconsideration, my
Lords, I do not intend to oppose it further, though
I am still far from being of opinion that it is
an improvement to the Bill. Beyond that, nay
Lords, I do not consider it such an alteration, as
affecting the principle of the Bill, as justifies me in aban-
doning it altogether.—(lmmense cheering.) Of course,
my Lords, I reserve to myself the liberty of proposing
any amendment on the bringing up of the report—
(Hear, hear, hear)—which I may consider it to
be my duty to do. At present, my Lords,
I am prepared to go on in endeavouring to conduct
this great and important measure to a successful issue—
(Cheers)—as I believe it to be essentially connected with
the safety of the Protestant church in Ireland.—(lm-
mense cheering.) I have already stated, my Lords, that I
shall do so under a deep feeling of difficulty and embarrass-
ment; but certainly I am bound to state, if further
alterations of the same nature are carried against me, it
will again be for his Majesty's Government to consider
how far it will he consistent with their duty to the public,
as well as with their duty to the situations they hold, to
persevere in further recommending the Bill for the adop-
tion of your Lordships.—(Hear, hear, from both sides
of the House.) My Lords, in hopes that such
alterations will not be made, I am prepared to go on
with the further consideration of the Bill in Committee,
and to propose such alterations as are rendered necessary
by what passed last night. My Lords, it has been my
most earnest wish and endeavour, as far I consistently
could, in relation to that paramount duty of maintaining
in full force the main principles of the Bill, to make
every concession that was in my power.—(Cheers.)
My Lords, I must confess that, having conceded the ma-
terial points of objection that applied to this particular
clause, it was to me a cause of great mortification
and regret that the amendment was insisted upon, which
I felt myself obliged, after going to the great extent of
concession I had done, to oppose. My Lords, I will now
proceed to the further consideration of this clause, and
also to what was stated by the Right Reverend Prelate,
assenting in those observations as he did to the general
principle of the clause. If any principle of the clause
was infringed by the amendment of the Right Rev. Prelate,
it would then be a question with me bow far it was con-
sistent with my honour and duty further to proceed with
the Bill.—(llear, hear.) Now there were two points
on which alteration had been required—first, as to
the giving power to the Commissioners to give salaries
not only to the incumbent and officiating minister,
but to the curate ; and secondly, as to saving the rights of
the Bishops.--(Hear, hear.) Now, after saving to
himself what appears to me highly objectionable,
namely, the giving to the Bishops an absolute veto,
his Grace was pleased to assent to the proposition
which I made to obviate the difficulty, observing at the
same time that it was an improvement.—(Hear, bear.)
Cors'qucntly, my Lords, with a view to the furtherance
of thos.! two objects, I have to propose an amendment to
the subsequent part of this clause, after that already proposed,
the first alteration being to afford to the Commissioners
the power of giving not only salaries to the incumbent and
officiating minister, but to the curate, if it should be deemed
expedient to make such an appointment, but also to admit
Archbishops or Bishops of the diocese in which the suspended
living was situated to a seat in the Council with the Com-
missioners pro hoc t•ice.--(Hear, bear.) Having stated
thus much, nothing more remains for me to add hut to read
the amendment I propose. The Noble Earl then read his
amendments to the effect he had already stated, which were
agreed to without opposition, and the clause, as amended,
was ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The clauses down to 127 were agreed to without opposi-
tion, but on its being proposed that that clause stand part
of the Bill,
The Bishop of GLOUCESTER said that he objected to
it in toto. The Noble Earl had repeatedly said, that
no loss or injury would result to the Bishops,
or other ecclesiastical proprietors ; but he would show
that the Noble Earl was in error upon that point,
The object of the Bill was to improve the cultivation of
land. It had been objected that the Bishops' lands in
Ireland bad been worse cultivated than other lands in the
country ; but this he denied, and be this as it might, the
present Bill would leave the Bishops to deal with their
tenants as landlords dealt with their tenants in ordinary
cases. He had no wish for the spoliation or an oppo-
sition to the Irish Church ; on the contrary, he wished
to support it.

The Archbishop of DUBLIN said it was not his inten-
tion to oppose the clause ; but he objected to the system
of lea,ing fur twenty-one years, subject to renewals every
year. .

Lord PLUNKET observed that no petition had been
presented from Ireland against this measure, which he
considered equally beneficial to the landlords, the tenants,
the Bishops, and the public generally.
The Duke of WELLINGTON objected to the clause,
on the ground that it would place the Irish Church in a
situatio❑ of deterioration, and he considered that any in-
terference with the Irish Church would ultimately affect
the Church of England. It was the more necessary to be
guarded with this Bill, as it was known that a great pro-
portion of the holders of estates held their property under
the church.

The Earl of WICKLOW supported the elau9e.
The Duke of CUMBERLAND made a few observa-
tions which were not heard in the gallery.

A(ttr a few words from Lord PLUNKET and the
Bishop of GLOUCESTER,
Lord I3ELAIORE said that if he thought the clause in
question would be advantageous to the interests of Ireland,
he would support it ; because he thought it calculated to
do injury, he would oppose it.
. . . _ .

Lord BERESFORD said that there should be a fair
and just valuation, so that none should pay too much and
none too little.

The Bishop of EXETER said that his Rev. Friend
need not he apprehensive lest this should be drawn into a
precedent.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY observed that the
system was the same i❑ England as in Ireland. The
Bishops in both countries derived incomes from the re-
newal of fines. He knew nothing about the state of
Ireland, but he must say that the effect of the system of
renewals in England was different from what it was in
Ireland.

The clause was then agreed to, as were also clauses 128
to 140.

On the 140th clause being read.
The Earl of BELINIORE proposed an amendment to
the effect that, in future no lessee of Bishops' land should
be liable to a higher corn rate than upon the average of
the three years preceding his last payment.
The Bishop of LONDON said that if the lessee were
dissatisfied with his bargain, he might get rid of it if he
thought proper.
The Earl of CALEDON said that many tenants had
expended large sums in improving the land they held, and
that ought to be taken into the account.
Lord PLUNKET said that tenants under Bishops'
leases would not he worse off than tenants under other
proprietors ; for if they thought the rest too high, they
might go to the Bishop and tell him so; and should he
refuse to reduce it, they might refuse to renew on the
expiration of the term.
The Earl of WicicLow supported the amendment,

and after a few words from the Earl of BELHVE, it
was negatived without a division.
The clause was then agreed to.
The 141st, 142 d, and 143 d clauses were next agreed to.
The remaining clauses were then agreed to without any
observation.
The postponed clauses were also agreed to with some
verbal amendments.
The schedules A and B were likewise agreed to, as was
also the preamble.
The House resumed.
The Report was ordered to be received on Monday next.
Adjourned.