The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-20 00:00:00

in 13.11 • iof rotte4ll
Derby. Brighton, and with Norwich, and we shell sons with rot hiving hretignt , testes, p ,
have a coast line completed. Cooly the Mon. Gentle- 'in inquiry 11,, ( r Leboactree ) thought his wen,
man calculate the profit which had ',coved to the mer- Friend had'exerosed eetust it en den in taking t'
chents and manufacturers connected with those placers, course which he had. adopted. .
The Urns. Memoir of
and compare the result with the profits that had arisen Sunderland (Mr. I Jude n) had talked about a bd`sch °le
to the merchants and traders in Marseilles, and faith, but he (Mr. Labouchere) denied that there was ,
other places in France, which were anprovided •be any breach of faith in adopting the recoramendatiel:
with railway communication. It appeared to him " ;of his Hon. Friend. He should censider that any s•,a,
be seething the kid in its mother's milk." Our very van:ae to the country would be toi dearly bougL",
Success was urged against us as a reason why we if purchased at the expense of the good faith of rial',llll
should prefer the French system in conducting our ment. To this motion he should give his most cosec.
railways. The French people had bought up the rail- support. B.•fore he sat down, however, he could flat
roads from the English capitalists, and they had been help adverting to an incident which had occurred tt!,
obliged to pay a very considerable sum as a premium to evening, and which showed the value of Parliament teg
their superior industry. The Hon. Gentleman disclaimed terfering in these matters. The Hon. Member !,'„
any intention of paying the national debt by the course Guildford (Mr. Mangles), who was a director ate,
which be proposed, but he certainly argued that he London and Birmingham Company, had that evenly!'
could. Now, his views of paying that debt were very stated that that Company intended very much to retbars
different from.his. He did believe that by wise mea- their fares—in fact they intended to introduce a clause 70
sures, which would lead to the increase of enterprise, their Bills of this session greatly reduc ng their p
aside'
the national debt would be by their grand children fares. This showe how important it was for P,
easily coped with, and they would think no more of .it ment not entirely to leave these companies to theinseiv.esse
than they did, at the present time, of the national debt Mr. MANGLES explained he had stated that ts,
which existed, when compared with that of the year fares were about to be reduced ; bet that course was ?:
1783, which amounted to 140,000.000/.—(Hear.) He-was about to be taken -n cons• quence of the motion of t°:
of opinion, that any attempt of the Government to inter- Hon. Member fry Inverness, or in consequence of ow
fare would prevent private enterprise, and he considered proceedings in Patna:neut.
that the companies would reduce` their fares to a far Mr. LABOUCHERE continued. He wished W.l
lower amount than any legislative enactment would curl- a few words with respect to the sub.), ct which had Dew
pel them. The Birmingham Company had, in the Bill brought under consideration by the Hon. Mea bla
which they sought for their amalgation, voluntarily for Sheffie!d, whiith vies, whether it was desirtce
bound themselves to carry first-class passengers for two- to interfere in sn extraordinary manner to 0:-5.0
pence a mile, second-class for three halfpence, and third- the application of cep tel to railway enterpril
class for a penny. during the present sessi-le to prevent any irduriouslt
Mr. HUDSON wished to know whether they would suit which such excess in the application of capttelolupt. •
carry coal ?—(Laughter.) produce in the public interests. That was a grave(' the
Captain Captain MANGLES—He was not able to s--y whe- win indeed. When the question was brought before
the
ther they would do so to Newcastle—(Herr, hear, and House some time ago. by the Right Hon. Geetlemsny
laughter)—but he did believe a great reduction would First Lord of the Treasury, he (Mr. Labouchere) se
take place without any legislative interference, and to Lured at that time to express an iminiole that it anYeee
this principle of notointerierence he had been always of so unusual a character were taken, it shoal be qet
accustomed to attribute the prosperity of Ens land. the recommendation of her Majesty's Government, acho
Mr. PARKER observed that he wished to ask the they had duly weighed all the consequences of °vele
Government whether they were prepared to plunge at step.
.On the appointment of that Committee en bet,
once into an increased expenditure, being pledged to a ways of which he had the honour of being antea%en
very serious one already. When the session com- the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel), and the h
menced there was a very general impression that some Lord the Secretary for Ireland, led him into theiroe
course would be taken by the House with reference to pression that it was the intention of the Goverhinesera
railways, but nothing had as yet been done. The propose some limitation. It was true that the Goof
Honourable Member for Sunderland said that on the ment laid before the Committee a classification °, st
greater number of Bills the deposits would not be paid, railway Bills of the present session. After looklest
and that consequently they would be thrown out on the that classification, he confess, d that it would be cot
standing orders; nut what was the act? Up to March the oitficult to decide where the limitation should Pries
17th, 302 railway Bills had passed through that ordeal, As to the question of limitation, the Committee 'oj.
and 140 were shout appearing before it on petition, and to the decision that i would net become them to °ea..
the whole number rjected sing e the opening of the der it, unless it wss brought before them by the w;,/
session amounted to no more than eleven ; in the vernment, After waiting fir a month, the no mbersbeo
case of two of which they had reverse their the Government, who were en the Committee, told.to
decision. And now he• did not mean to cast any that they had no intention of raising the quest° pee
imputation on the Committees. On the contrary, he be the Committee. He was still cf opinion that a (-30a1 et
lieved they had acted moss wisely, and not with any tee, such as that suggested by the Hon. Member „se
pedantic strictness ; hut he did urge on the House the Sheffield, would he useless. The whole matter wit;ol,
consideration of the amount of money necessary to com- which .alone should be considered by the Geyer"
pass all these undertakings ; he would recemmend that and ought to b. bseught forward by them. bed
a clause should be introduced putting back the execu• Sir G CLERK said the Right Him. Gentleuiser et
don ot these schemes, some for six, others for twelve, given a correct .description ot the proceedings of
and others for eighteen months, as it miglst seem n ces- Committee. The Governa,en: had originally inwi„ the
sary. From the dissent he saw expressed by the Chancel- to adopt a plan nearly site I.r to that sugges:ed siToted
lor, he did not consider his proposition would be ad peed. Hon. Member fer Seetli 1 ; but a hen they rt of
Last year it was stated that fifty millions had been ad- I that the number of plans deposited at the Selleir
vanced'in railway undertakings. During last year the I ride had le en redo'"'4 h,fore the meeting of
,i're
expenditure had been as much, but there were n.• msnt by ois -a f. they did ot think
toper
grounds whatever for supposing that they would be act- then suffielent caw,• rel. interference. The Derr
ing is, confermity wah the interests of the publics by originally upwards. or 800, but they had be' tooF
going on with a aim-liar annual expenditure. That thee duced to abour. 440. and these included Bills r hese.
of the subject was ably adv. cated by an authority widah gamerien, and several Bills, were for the same r:e.,holo
every man in that House would respect, except th- The Classification Committee ad eomptised thee
Noble L.ad, any' those who surrounded him—he meant of the railways in fifty-six groups. He shoe'
the Economist He would nut, however, trespass longer support to the motion of tee lien. Member ter
on the House. He had no wish to three any obstruction He did believe that the averags amount of rett'r soo
in the way. or to propose any amendment to the motion, not realise more than from five at d a quarter to 11;fiees
but he would inculcate in the Chenceder of the Exehe- a half per cent. upon ,he capital. But hen tats „
qaer the propriety of taking the observations he had considered that the most easy modes of con'13:1;1110
made into hie most actions attentive consideration ; and, tion in this colliery we• e likely to be carried ("5., ii. 4"
if he saw fie after that deliberation to concur with him, extent as to supers, d • all other moth s cenitnnvele the
that he would adopt such measures for the limitation of it did become the duty of the Legislature ti"." toe'
these schemes as might be considered necessary and ad matter seriously into consideration, with a vie'vldt
vantageous to the public interests.—(Hear, hear.) curing the public every possible adtaettigee `t,j fog,
Mr. HUDSON did not think it necessary, as her Ma- hear.) In the year 1844 a Committee was, eppa'e; 01°'
jesty's Government approved of the appointment of the the purpose of making inquiries, ino this sithrea; isoj
Committee, to detait, the House at any 1.-ngth. As the after a most laberii us inquiry, a Bill was brougewee°'
Hon. Member for Sheffield. however, had alluded to a this House for the purpose of limiting. the P°••,,its!
former speech which he bad made on the subject, he railway companies ; an.l after a great seal of eitlesieL;
would trouble the House with a very few observations. the Bill was carried. It h wever, be eawiel
What he then said was, that there were 800 schemes desirable, when a great number of railwa)s bb
,°„t,
deposited with the Board of Trade. and frem the state pa .jeeted, that a strict hal dry shou b, made„'"eiteu
ment just made by the Hove Member, it appeared that actual amount of advroveg, as hick they Would vbeio.of4
140 of these had passed the Standing Order* sSommittee. to cenfer upon the publits In speaking upon le )0,
The next observation he made was not as to the num- tion, he (Sir G. Cierk) did not mean to say that 'le,
ber of schemes, but to. the amount of capital embarked. support all the views of the H nourable "
,prir
In reference to that, he stated that net more than a hut,- for Ineerness ; butbutte hoped he would have il!1103,(0.,
Bred millions would be expended. New, it he r collected tunity of brit.gi. g the whole of the details of his 0001
right, 0 e amount deposit, din the Bank if England was before the • 'ousts ; and he felt assured that everye Ple
10mill- ni, being theatnountiddepesit which was required would he afforded him to do so by this It-'lls;*
by the stauding orders, to guarantee the bond fide !allure when they saw the meny attempts that had barar:
of the schemes pr. jected ; and this proved that he had not by companies to amalgamate with orb, r coniPahniol tOri
over estimated that amount. He would now reply to the 111.terIlliIII'd oppoSito.ll those mpseies " se";
what the Hee. Member for Sheffield stated in reference with frond rival Conipenies ; etid when they
to the expenditure of money, which would take place in also the many, when:ages which the public "ty',o
two or three ears. He (Mr. liudsen) alfalfa, d that. the likely to derive isy the itinsigaenetion of ether hn'olS
sum was large, but, as be stair d before, they should erder to brine a long litre under One 11:V.InagUlt",olltr
caresully ex-,mine int., that expenditure. Mote 'ban the Government should take care tha: ac- sofil
one-fifth of that amount went tram the shareholders to amouet of advantage. in other roe:texts ouievote
the pockets of the landowners—it was a mere transfer cured to the public therm fore, trust
from the capitalist to the landowner. He bad carefully result of the prepileed regulations would tie t° 'lO7
con adered tile subject himself, and he had consulted as advantageous to the o üblic as that would bee:Ff
with some others, well able to form an opinion upon it, would be likely to result from that inteuded by ti`
' the result of which bad been that he became more-and minglaam Grand Jurctien. lee
more confirmed in the accuracy of hose opinions, In Mr. HATTER said that, year after year, 13'1144
mine line of railieay, a here the expenditure bed been moved for, which so continually had the effect, d,'l4
45,000/ per mile, the sum which went to the land- doing what had been done h. fore, that it war• ve; se
owners was (as we understood) 29.000/. In the Midland fieult fur Hon. Members te knew what °e'er °oil
Rail Way, where from 60,000/. to 70,000/. was expended. actually about. New, he would ask what et 0,111,0
6,0001. went from the shareholders. An• ther sum of grounds upon which the Hon. M-mbsr fer Invr•fnt,,,t
5,000,0001. would be paid for royalties, timber, &c. founded his motion He said he i
conce;sed teeth
'Ten there might be a -decrease ef from two to three public were net yet sufficiently rote cted, "Lie,
millions in tee poor-rates, in consequence of the employ- engaged in railway projects made enormous Pro'obje6o
went which the expeeditUre would give. Seven to nine Committee was appointed to inquire into thi.„,
million- more would be given to labourers, who would and they made a report as to the results . f rie
be pretitebly employed. There would thus be expended in the year 1832, arid two or three f .1100itto of
fifty millions, whien would go directly into the labour The Hon. Member then refesred to the apeen`reeers.el
market, or to those connected with the land through report, by which he said it appeared that the s
which the railways would pass. About twenty yeare railways realised a dividend of net more 'il" not di
ago from eighty to leery nations wen enrually raised per cent. There wes another point n'upe whir oilsie
from the tax,tion of the country, ants surely to were word had been said, namely, the taxes pd Two r
now in a better condition to bear a drain neon their re- to Government, which ameuteed te 5 per ten'
sources timn they were then. The fourtees milliens, gross r ceipts ..f all radways, from whies the rail 'et
which was,the amount of the expenditure of 1844, had rived a certain amount if benefit. Whet ea -4
been expeeded ; the sum of fifty teilliebs, tee ainount of amount to in the aggregate ? He wmild "
8.0
the bill. for 1845, was in process of expenditure ; and House to judge, by instancing the case of anie.eiefil'ot
from two hundred to three hundred miles of those lines railway. In the year 1839, the tax of this uee-eolleit
where be was director would be open in August, or paid by the Gr. at Wester', Railway ConsPen):o 0501
some time in autumn mixt. The oriole of the capital to 22.222/. Its the !tetra allawing, the blip', !Cat;
would thus come into ..peratien, and h.- felt satisfied each year ; but the year 1845, the suns Paleortei
that no embarrassment would ire telt is ot the employ- it en: any same as a tax to Gocer: moot rfat
ment of any ca itat which wed.' h- exeelided, provided it and yet it had been saam
l that rhos companies e'
was properly invested That was the most, important no benefit upon the pub ic. Then there were t
matter which they ought to consider, ea; her than the rates, and county rates, and ether taxes of thigone~600
propriety of considering whether they should put a tem ; of these taxes the Great Western -eserwroel•
limit to the power, the wealth, or the enterprise of this 60,0001. in one year, le sides ocher taxes of eal'oe.7l),
country. He
assts,ws quite satesfi d that no alarm whatever which no other class of property. paid. The h".„-trit).r.
we be felt
at the income watch was, annually received from rail truck system. Well, in Belli urn the railvre) et
ways, he considered that they would have les-, grounds taxes of any sera a din France they were I.7YOPPet
for apprehension. That amount had been nce.•tly seve. free from taitatien, or, at least, a rail road Pt' pr-op
ral millions a year, or 140.0001.- a -week. -Tee-actual same amount of tax as any other road, and tu,,,'‘,ollleo
sum at -present was 120,0001.; but he considered, from direct tax to the Governments .Now, her rsa"th!
the increasing prosperity, they might safely calculate on which was the best system of the two ? anbeestrosl.
the 20,000/. Then, as to the railways from which in- line, after an existenee of thirty-seven years,
the3a
tits
come would be derivable during the present year, ho premerte of the Government. Now, taking
calculated the sum from eight to nine millions as the a-year paid by the Greet Western ComsepvsennYioofrsti:,•strii'i
gross receipts. All that he would impress upon them vernment as a tax, that for thirty-
was to select suitable lines, and not expend mon y upon amount to over 3,000,000/.. and this was tlefee cotskreli
those which would not tend to the public good. Under vantages derivable to the Government of t",„ePtr:lt','
all the circumstances, he would give a negative to the from rail-reaes, of which the Fr. nch Governi-elsal
motion of the Hen. Gentleman, for he did not see what nothing. Then, with regard to branebes•
possible good the Committee, if appointed, could do. He them did not pay the company for their et'
r10,,/pie
contended that the House, from the information which least the only chance the compeny had of If :04:41
it had before it, was in a position to legislate on all was by the traffic which the main line shoal" " oa
ratlway subjects; and he could not. therefore, see the them. On those grounds then he would ealleriseti'yl
propriety of appointing a Committee. Had the Hen. Mem- present system was the best that could be ee.
ber brought forward a Bill upon the subject instead of therefore, he would be sorry that a Cotureit'''s seP-
preposing a Committee, he would have been prepared granted 0 disturb it. tebettiO°'
to state definitely his views upon the subject, but as he Iserd EBRINGTON said that the Hon.
had Hot chosen to take that course he considered that had just sat down_ omitted to state that the ,„sils;O,
the appointment of a Committee was mere waste of time, vernment had the advan'age of having their blabs '1 00.'
and could nut teed to the public advantage. A Coin- mitted gratuitously by the railways. wheegitieLV
inittee had formerly sat twenty-one da, s upon the Ebringters) thought gave a very fine set 0:0,10.ier",
subject, and, after an examination of twenty six wit- French companies not paying a tax to their 'tea %re"
nesses, a Bill was brought forward and passed the House Arid as to what had been said about the eete°,o.
for the future regueition of railway business. He deployment given by railways, although tlieg•eteede-
precated, however, this constant interference with rail- were paid high wages, their wages were -001 A
ways. The Hen. Member for Inverness bad stated while they bore no proportion to the low ra ~,e1
nothing that they did not know well the last time they pa'd to the neighbouring agricultural labour! pte.lieer•
legislated upon the subject; and, as the subj. ct was then Mr. AGLIUNBY said that the railwe-reeedit
settled by a compromise, he thought that for the deserved great thanks for the generous eat., 1010:/e;
next seven years they would have had some security money that they had engaged in • but at lereilt ptira.
for their interests.—(Laughter.) According to no person could doubt that they 'had not ;noted!"
a statement made in a railway paper, it appeared that fives in such outlay. However, he ghoul% gb• rot F
this sum of 67,283,0001. bad been already- expended on the public, and also the Hors Gentleman, result
railways. This was an immense amount of money to be trees that were likely to accrue from the
embarked in any enterprise, and he protested against motion. tent fee e
any Hon. Gentleman coming down to that House, after Mr. ENTWISLE would merely Cosiest
such an amount had been expended, and speculating— with making a suggestion that had long "—seilesee
neae
(Laughter)—upon its regulation. Now what was the mind. He could not deny that it was in 11-00Se._.80
amount of interest which many of these lines had paid? the system of legislation pursued by that e ptereeleatiii
Nine of them paid less than 5 per cent., and four of present amount of speculation in railleelea ply; l'at
them paid from 5 to 6 per cent.. The Hon. Gentle- toted ; and had a more judicious course u`,s'eeste'ess!'el
man surely would not think that sum too large. It did ventured to state that not one-half those The Sele,6t
not, therefore, become the Hon. Member for Sheffield to then be before them.—(Hear, hear ) ebee-ellifiti
make such vague statements with reference this ex- therefore was, that the present Committee the gio
peediture. And 6of them paid not more than 8 per cent., some uniform description of decision ontotioeoboSie
and the remaining 7 from 9to 10 per cent. They might go and then the same amount of wild el'ec eberee
on with these alarms, as there were some gentlemen who not exist. With that view he shout;ly ofvs_.te Sii!
appeared to think that their property was never secure be some Preliminary trbunal estalatheo; otosoete
unless the House was sitting—(Laughter)—but if the end to such speculation. He did not
_,°cesto,
Hon. Gentleman instead of exciting these apprehensions, that the H. use should give up its juriseldeeisie" „se
would leave legislative subjects to more able hands, he some tribunal possessing an uniformity of ww
would consult his own ease and the interests of the pub- be estaaliehed.—(Hear, hear.) 061; fen
his to I.
lie for whom he expressed so much concern; at any rate Mr. HUME felt bound to exprea tee Sled
he ahead not interfere with what had been granted to that the Government should have cons° ale 1,091
them b successive Acts of Parliament. pointment of the Committee moved for' tyeeo ,re
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he would, in the first beneficial the lines of railway might bactLeh 1:0 tor,
place, say a few words on the question proposed by the. fore to the public, they certainly weree,,eid
vantageous to the shareholders. Tneg iv ?Pere 301,
Hon. Member for Inverness. The Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down seemed to be of opinion that no one dence from otter countries, from Fraheethei l'ec4o,o
was au competent to view the subject as one who had that by the system which they
been. extensively engaged in the railway. system. He aloha enabled to pay a large per cente,geirceerr4ol
adopted,, see,e.(lo,
admitted that there were circumstances in the present out also to contribute materially to '.he neope`eses'ea
system of railways which required the serious considers- national debt. Now, in his opint esa be,,,(11,01
tion of the Legislature. Gentlemen had said that they were adopted inthis country,';hey could eeb,r. 000
ought not to interfere with the good old English prin- to pay off a large portion of their nationalcola
fi d
ciple of allowing capital to take its own way. He ad- hear.) He was of opinieen that no barley re..01,°,°.11
mitted that that was a good principle, but was there inquiry. He was as mach opposed el. It eireeetleir°
nothing more than the employment of capital to be con- breach of faith with thee public, but he:
-.40,, 6,0,1 of
sidered in this matter? They mast tote into their con- to give his support tie the motion of th , )
sideration that the whole of the passengers and goods for a Committee ; and he hoped the incidesiceilsof;ti
traffic of the country' was not left in the hands of two conducted with' all fairness, and with b7eetelse
or three companies, Is was this that rendered the ees. nish all information possible ou the sublet bteelOfi
ployment of capital in railways different from its em- Mr. P. STEW ART would admit that sold% se
ployment in other ways. The Hon, Member for Sun- -not be too' cautious in proceeding on thew, sa.
derland bad taunted big He Friend -(Mr. Morrison) it, but at the name time he felt butt O W