The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-10 00:00:00

the captains had served 12 years (or four times the period on
full pay) longer than the (navy) lieutenants; and yet the
majority of the above military officers purchased their com-
missions, which the officers in the sister service did not.
Now, the country ought only to pay for services performed.
here should be no system of promotion which allowed men
to be put upon half-pay after three or four years' service.
Why not adopt the French system ? In their navy the same
rule applied to the officers as attached to the privates. They
had quarters, thirds, half-pay, and full pay, applying both to
officers and men ; and why should it be otherwise in this coun-
try? He took his Hon. Friend's observations in the spirit
in which they were. intended, and which, no doubt, were
meant for the benefit of the service; but what he wished
was, that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
should consider the aggregate amount of the charge on the
public, and whether the Noble Lord was not exaggerating
the necessity of keeping up so large an establishment as
they had been maintaining for the last few years. He
would not trouble the House with any remark upon his old
and favourite topic—the public establishments of the
year 1792—(Laughter)—but it was satisfactory for him to
observe that the Committees of 1816, 1817, 1219, and 1838
all referred to that year as a standard of comparison with
regard to the permanent expenses of the different de-
partments in the state. One cause for the increase of the
estimates beyond their amount in 1792 was the great rise
which took place in the price of provisions, particularly in
the year 1800. That indeed was the only reason why the
salaries of public men were increased. At that period it
was urged that by reason of the corn-laws provisions were dear,
and it was necessary to make proportionate allowances in the
public charges;' but he might remind the Committee that
the', corn-laws were now about to terminate, and he thought
the time would soon come when it would become the duty
of the Minister to review the salaries of all persons receiving
money from the public purse—from the highest to the lowest
officers in the State, in order that he might reduce them
proportionately to the ,reduced price of provisions, and
of almost every article hi the country. Several succes-
sive Select Committees had recommended greater economy
in the naval expenditure, but had the Government acted
on those recommendations? No; they raised every shil-
ling they could, and spent every shilling they could
raise, instead of following the advice of the Select Commit-
tee in 1819, to make every possible reduction during
peace, in order to be better prepared for. the exigency
of war.—(Hear). He believed that the people of this couns
try were sound at heart, and were to be depended on, but
let not the Government crush them by taxation, and by the
expense of keeping up useless establishments which were
not wanted. Let them withdraw their squadron from the
coast of Africa, where they were adding greater horrors to
the already sufficient horrors of the slave trade. There was
one point to which he had before adverted, namely the
waste of public money in useless salutes.—(hear, and a
laugh.) He found that 50/. was thrown away in one day
in this way, and that which would relieve all the charities
in the country was wasted in most unnecessary salutes of
powder. It was childish in the highest degree to blaze away
powder in compliment to officers of rank.—(A laugh, and
hear, hear.) The state of the medical profession in the navy
also required the attention of the House. In 1840 the Select
Committee which sat then called the attention of the
Admiralty to the condition and prospects of this
class, which they stated were not such as to afford due
encouragement to these meritorious officers. Hence
arose the difficulty which was at present felt of
getting a supply of these officers. It was a most ex-
traordinary fact, that while there was not an appointment
to any rank in the dockyards for which there were not hun-
dreds and thousands of applicants, there were no candidates
for the post of medical assistants in the navy. These officers
complained that they were not placed upon ward-room rank
-with the other officers of her Majesty's ships, and that they
were not allowed to mess and berth with other gentlemen of
their own education and rank in society. Was theirs not
something wrong when in every union workhouse in the
country there were dozens of medical men anxious to fill
every vacancy, and yet that in her Majesty's navy assistant-
surgeons could not be got? The system adopted of building
ships in the 'loyal Navy was most extravagant, and he hoped
the Government would attend to the opinion of the witnesses
who had stated to the Committee that the Government, in-
stead of increasing their establishment in every emergency,
should. calculate what the wants of the service were likely to
be, should keep the number of mee proportioned thereto, and
then, if an emergency should arise, there were plenty of pri-
vate dockyards where they could obtain assistance. He did
not wish to see the repairs of her Majesty's ships given to
private dockyards, but he believed it to be possible to have
as good a ship built by contract as in the Government yards.
And why not? The Government surveyors could lay down
the lines, they could appoint their officers to inspect the
timber used, and to see the work performed. By employing
the private yards on an emergency the Government could
keep their establishments within a limited fixed scale. 'Utley
ought, indeed, to be kept something below the scale, because
there were in the country such large yards and such excel-
lent shipbuilders. These naval estimates of 8,000,000/.
might be reduced one. half their amount, but the Govern-
ment gave the House no a'surance of reduction. The state
of Europe and of the world warranted such reduction, and
he demanded it on behalf of those who already laboured
under such heavy loads of taxation. If the Government
were determined to keep the country clown by military force,
would twice as many troops add to their security? The
country wanted an efficient and an economical Government,
one which would not keep down the people by military
force. If there were wisdom in the Cabinet, its members, looking
to the present aspect of affairs, would say that there ought
to be peace; and if they took their measures accordingly
they would strengthen the present Government, which he
wished to see preserved.

Admiral GOR DON regretted that the Government had
consented to refer the naval estimates of the current year to
a Committee of the House, because it was a precedent which
he feared might be injurious to the public service. The re-
sponsibility of proposing the naval estimates properly rested
with the Government, and they were expected to be ready
to support and defend these estimates. With regard so the
labours of the Committee, although there were some of their
recommendations in which he could not concur, still he was
bound to say, that upon the whole they had collected a vast
deal of very useful information—(Hear, hear)—which would
prove very useful hereafter. He agreed generally with the
Secretary of the Admiralty upon those points on which he
proposed to concur with or dissent from the recommendations
of the Committee, some of which the Government would do
wisely not to adopt without first consulting the opinions of
competent professional persons.
Captain BERKELEY said, there were one or two state-
ments made by the lion. Member for Montrose in which he
could not concur, and which a few of those figures of which
the Hon. Member was so fond would show to be erroneous.
With regard to the assistant-surgeons of her Majesty's navy,
he thought it was much better left to the Executive and to
the Admiralty to say in what part of the ship these officers
should continue to be placed, than to leave such questions
to such a body as even the House of Commons. The
Hon. Member said there was not one candidate for the
situation of assistant-surgeon in the navy. But it was
necessary, in the first place, to state that, in conse-
quence of the general promotion in 1845-6, there were 71
surgeons promoted. To fill those vacancies no less than 100
assistant-surgeons offered themselves, and were now on the
lists. - (Hear.) And he had the pleasure of informing the
[ion. Member, that the assistant-surgeons entered ;since
1847-8 were 49, the average promotions of surgeons in the
navy being 12 in the year. If the Hon. Member complained
that the promotion was so slow, he must remember that
this was one of the consequences of a time of peace. The
Hon. Member stated, that there was not one assistant-sur-
geon to be had; but, ho knew a gentleman who lately wrote
to a friend in the north to ask whether any assistant-sur-
geons could be procured there, and limiting his friend to
engage a number not greater than 10; the gentleman se
addressed shortly afterwards wrote to say that he had got
five, that other business had occurred to prevent his engag-
ing a greater number, but that he had no doubt he could
get as many assistant-surgeons for her Majesty's navy as he
pleased. So much for the Hon. Member's statement that
assistant-surgeons would not enter into the navy.—( Hear,
hear.) The Honourable Member had said that if
we had 50 sail of the line we could not man
them. lie would admit that we had not an or-
ganized force to man that number of ships, but it must be
remembered that at the close of the war we had 141 ships of
the line fully manned, and if the same demand should
arise he did not see why they should not be able to mars a
fleet now as well as then --(Cheers.) At the close of the
war there were no less than 728 ships commissioned by cap-
tains who were then placed on half-pay. Those 728 captains
were independent of commanders and lieutenants. Alto-
gether there were about 1,200 sail in commission at the end
of the war, and how could it be helped that there should be
at present a great number of those officers upon half-pay?—
(Hoar, hear.) There were 728 captains then afloat, while at.
the present moment the whole of their fleet commissioned by
post-captains, as they were then called, did not amount to
more than fifty.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUAIE explained. His statement of the scarcity of
candidatesro in
Sir
W.
Burnett,
hrhe tt assistant-surgeonsedical in
Director-General
wasderived
Navy.
vy
f.
' Mr. COBDEN said he wished to make a few general ob-
servations on the question before the House. The Com-
mittee on which he had sat had been precluded from enter-
taining the question what should
be the amount of our naval
o f the
force. They were told that that was a question which
should be left to the responsible advisers of the Crown, and
that it was for the House to decide whether or not the force
proposed should be maintained. Now they all knew that
ion of that sort brought before the House became a
confidence in the Government. Before their
meeting again next question of con en
February, if, indeed, they did not any quest
as-
semble sooner, the amount of the naval force for the ensuing
year would be considered, and he took it for granted, what-
ever it might be, that the ILuse would agree to it. He
wished, however, to offer one or two observations, as the re-
sult of his experience on the Committee, as to the amount of
force we should maintain, and in doing so he did not -wish to
pass censure on any Government, past or present. It had
been stated by the Hon. Secretary to the Admiralty that the
s t i ocli rum
gthatt
navy estimates had been increasing for the last ten years;
that no division had ever been taken against the increase, and
he took fair ground when he said that the Government was
not to be blamed, and that the representatives of the people
alone were to be blamed for having consented to the increase.
foro u
The increase which had taken place in our naval armaments
from
was necessary for us to keep pace with other countries, who
had alsot m
increased
in-
p ve increase of force—
mittee would agree with him, the question being one of re-
lative forces, that if other countries, as well as this, adopted
i
e to
time
their had
been
force justified
fi
No ed w
line o the groundethoughtbthe o
taaabgn
arddtii
erf f
theet
hhrenat
object
ntbtgj
hepeacortlrei
awcseyhb-e—iocoubififdrhii
be
esaat
Inenr3aodLcbooiift
comparative
friendsaugmenting
sought each itsd
forces,l
b
f they
yti d b
gained, and yet each country would stand in the same rela-
tive position that it did at present. The great increase which
had taken place lately in our navy estimates had been for
steam forces. He did not think the Committee had fully
appreciated the vast amount of expenditure incurred for
the steam navy. He thought the Hon. Secretary to the
Admiralty would admit that he did not exaggerate whim
he said that at this moment -.there were built, building,
or about to be built, a steam navy equal to 100 vessels,
averaging 1,000 tons each; and in addition to these sixty
or seventy smaller steamers of different denominations.
He had taken some pains to engage the assistance of practical
and experienced men on the subject of the estimates and cost
of the vast armament which this country was keeping up,
and he would give them the result of his invest igatious. He
found that we had in war-steamers a horse power amounting
to 32,000. He would take the tonnage at 100,000. Now,
from the evidence which was given before the Committee, it
would appear that the cost of these vessels, upon the above
calculation of tonnage and horse power of machinery, would
amount to no less than 5,000,000/. sterling. Then there were
smaller vessels to the extent of about 10,000 horse, the cost
of which he would estimate at 1,000,0031., nicking in all, for
the cost of our steam navy, no less a sum than 6,000,0001.
Could the Committee believe the fact that there was ex-
pended on our steam navy a larger amount than was sunk in
the entire number of steamers engaged in our merchant ser-
vice, whether in the coasting or foreign
trade?—(hear, hear.)
Yet suck was the fact. The lion. and Gallant Gentleman
opposite (Admiral Bowles) seemed to doubt the facts; but
he could assure him it was so. There was snore expended
on our steam navy, more than the entire capital sunk in all l
the merchant steamers of this country,- put together.—( Hear.)
He perceived also that the Right Hon. Baronet the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer appeared not to credit the fact—
neither could the country, perhaps; but, nevertheless, the

case was as he had stated.-(Hear.) Considering the enor-
mous expense to the country which had accrued from this
source, he was disposed to say that it would have been a
Messing to this country if steam navigation had never been
invented.—(Oh, oh, and hear.) He repeated what he had
said, that it would bs so if we were to go on with the race we
were now running.—(Hear, hear.) If they were to keep up
such a large steam navy to protect their merchant navy,
what advantage were they deriving from it? He could
prove that it was the same in other countries. He could
prove that the war-steamers of France cost more than the
merchant navy; and that the same. was tke case with re-
spect to Sardinia, to Denmark, Russia, and Austria.
NoW, if all the countries in Europe had been sunning that
absurd race of expenditure, was there any one that would
not agree with him in the opinion that it was high time to
draw public attention to the subject, in order that this
enormous expenditure in war-steamers might be reduced?—
(Hear, hear.) He would mention another fact on this point,
and affirm that we had as large an amount of money invested
in steam docks and other public establishments for the re-
pair of steam-ships, as was employed in all the private yards
engaged in the building of merchant ships. He had taken
some pains to satisfy himself of the truth of that fact. Now,
there was expended, or engaged to be expended, the an-
nexed sums at the following places: At Woolwich,
150,0001.; at Portsmouth, 250,0001. ; at Keyham, 1,250,0001.
—making a total for the provision of the repair of
steam-ships of war of not less than 1,625,0001., and that
was a la-ger amount of capital than was expeuded on
all the private shipbuilding yards on the Clyde,
the Thames, or elsewhere, for the construction of
merchant vessels. Yet all that was done in those
Government establishments was the making and repairing
of boilers. What had been the cause, he would ask, or how
was it that this enormous increase in our expenditure had
taken place? It had been caused by a panic, by the fear
of an invasion by other countries. He would say a word or
two on that point, and he begged to observe that he did not
wish to make the slightest remark which would raise an an-
tagonistic spirit on the part of professional men ; but he
should say that amongst the naval and military gentlemen
examined before the Committee, there appeared to be a
strong bias in favour of increased and enlarged armaments.
—(Hear, hear.) Amongst those who bad given evidence
with respect to their opinion of the necessity for this in-
creased expenditure, and this preparation for hostilities, had
been Sir Thomas Hastings. The Honourable Member
here referred at same length to the evidence of this officer
given before the Committee. In one part of the evidence it
had been stated, that for the purpose of protecting Ports-
mouth from an assumed invasion eight line-of-battle ships
should be made screw steamers. But the result of his recom-
mendation had been that only one, namely, the Blenheim,
had been so completed. This suggestion had been caused
by the supposition that France was preparing an increased
naval armament, which after all bad turned out a false alarm
Then, again, with respect to steam dockyards, the same
Gallant Officer assumed that a battle' had taken place, and
even though favourable,to the fleet of this country, contended
that at Portsmouth and Plymouth accommodation for re-
pairing war-steamers to the extent of 20,000 horse-power
should be provided. In all the testimony given with respect
to the expenditure we ought to incur it was assumed that
we were at war. It was on the assumption of such a state
of things that a su.n amounting to 1,250,0001. had been re-
commended to be laid out at Keyham. While they
hal at the present moment an amount of dockyard
accommodation for the repair of vessels to the extent
of 25,000 horse-power, it was recommended by the gallant
witness that it should be increased to 75,000 horse-.
power to meet the exigencies of all the imaginary battles
which were contemplated in the, testimony. The same wit-
ness had been further asked " Was all this necessary in a
time of peace?" To which he had replied. " I view all these
questions with reference to a state of war."—( Hear, hear.)
But, great as all those preparations were, it appeared that
some of the gallant officers examined were not satisfied with
them. Another "gallant officer,-Admiral Bowles, was also
examined. Perhaps he (Mr. Cobden) might not be perfectly
in order, in quoting from or referring to evidence which was
not yet in the hands of all the Members of the House; but
it was no fault of his if the navy, estimates were brought on
before that evidence was distributed.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Member then read some extracts from the evidence of
the Hon. and Gallant Member last named, by which it
would appear that his opiniOn- wee, that the navy of this
country should be superior, by one-half, to that of France,
whatever the latter might be.
Admiral BOWLES said, it was a proof of the inexpe•
diency and irregularity of quoting evidence not formally in
the possession of the House, that the Hon. Member was
reading an uncorrected copy. What he had stated was
" ships of the line."
Mr. COBDEN continned.--He agreed with the Hon. and
Gallant Admiral in the opinion which he had expressed in
this instance, that England should have a larger naval and
steam force than other countries Every one should admit
that England was entitled to have a more extended naval
force in proportion to her more extended commerce; and she
might have such without exciting the jealousy of other na-
tions.—(Hear, hear.) But he was not in favour of this system
of continually increasing our naval armament. The Hon. and
Gellert witness also admitted that in giving the advice for
the increased armament he never considered the expense, but
only took into consideration the safety of the empire. In'
the evidence given before the Committee it appeared to him
that the witnesses assumed a physical possibility, and called
upon them to agree to it as a moral probability.—(Hear,
hear.) Such were the grounds upon which they were told
to agree to an increased expenditure. He saw a remark in
one of the American papers which, although a coarse one,
struck him as having some weight in it with regard to our
recent' panic. It had been there said that England was in-
curring a large expense for a long time in playing the bully
amongst other nations, and that she was now incurring a
large expense in playing the coward.—(Cries of " Hear.")
He ssould ask the Government whether it was not possible
that something might be done to stop this enormous expen-
diture that was now going on? Was it not possible to per-
suade continental states that this absurd system of increased
armament ought to be put an end to?—(Hear.) It might
be called a Utopian or visionary attempt to make such an
essay ; but he was supported in his view by a high authority
in that House—by no less an opinion than that of the Right
Hoe. Baronet the Member for -Tamworth. In 1841 Sir
Robert Peel had made a speech in that House, in which he
had spoken to the following effect:—" Is not the time
come when the powerful countries of Europe should re-
duce those military armaments which they have so
sedulously raised ? Is not the time come when they should
be prepared to declare that there is no use in such over-
grown establishments? What is the advantage of one
power greatly increasing its army or navy ? Does it not
see that if it proposes such increase for self-protection aed
defence the other Powers would follow its example ? The
consequence of this state of things must be that no increase
of relative strength will accrue to any one Power, but that
there must be a universal consumption of the resources of
every country in military preparations. They are, in fact,
depriving peace of half its advantages, and anticipating the
energies of war whenever they may be required. I do not
mean to advocate any romantic notion of each nation
trusting with security the professions of its neighbour, but
if each country were to commune with itself, and ask,
What is at present the danger of foreign invasion, com-
pared to the danger of producing dissatisfaction and discon-
tent, and curtailing the comforts of the people by undue
taxation ?' the answer must be this, that the danger of
aggression is infinitely less than the danger of those suf-
ferings to which the present exorbitant expenditure must
give rise. The interest of. Europe is not that any one country
should exercise a peculiar influence; but the true interest of
Europe is to come to some one common accord, so as to en-
able every country to reduce those military armaments
which belong to a awe of war rather than of peace.—
(Hear, hears) -I-do wish that the councils of every country
(or that the public voice and mind, if the councils did not)
would willingly propagate such a doctrine." He would ask
the House to consider what the proposed amount of
18,000,0001. would represent, which was to be expended in
an increased armament ? It would represent no less than
8 000.000 quarters of corn, and the rental of about 1,200,000
houses of the value of 101. The number of houses in all
their accessible towns would hardly extend to such an ex-
pense. The question, therefore, became of the utmost im-
ortance to men of all parties at the present time. He was
far from objecting to the expense of any armament necessary
for the protection of our coast or our commerce ; but he
maintained that every additional penny of cost incurred
was so much thrown into the sea, and was an expen-
diture which ought not to be sanctioned.—( Hear, hear.)
He had observed in the course of the inquiries before the
Select Committee on the estimates, that the purposes for
which the armaments were kept up, were never properly
defined. Lord Auckland had been examined before the Com-
mittee, and many questions had been put to him as to the
rule which guided him in the disposal of our naval force;
but to these questions he had never given any intelligible
answer. The rule which principally guided him seemed to
be that we ought to have in every quarter of the world a
naval force as great, or greater than that of any other power.
For instance, there was a very miserable quarrel in the
River Plate, which had led to great waste of money and of
diplomacy at Monte Video and Buenos Ayres; and Lord
Auckland had kept a British fleet in that region simply
because a French fleet had also been stationed there. But
surely there was no sense in that. The French might
blockade Monte Video, and is- might be desirable to send out
an English ship to see that the usual conditions of war were
observed during the blockade; but while dealing with
a civilised country like France, it was not necessary that
a large fleet should be stationed along the coast fur that
purpose. Let them look at the naval force we had at pre-
sent on the Chinese station. We had 25 ships there, whereas
in the'year 1805, during the war, we had only 15 ships on
that station. We exported 2,000,0001. worth of goods to
China ; but if it were necessary to guard those exports by a
fleet which cost 700,0001., we could only lose by such a trade;
and if we had enough of it, it would ruin this country.—
( Hear, hear.) Surely we ought to have some better rule for
the disposal of our naval force than any which we had
hitherto adopted. He should remind the House that at pre-
sent our trading-vessels were never in danger from pirates.
That was an advantage which our forefathers had not pod-
sessed, for it was only within the, last twenty years that the
waters of the world were secure against piratical violence.
The extended commerce of this country bad cleared the ocean
of pirates, in the same way as the construction of turnpike-
roads had cleared our rural districts of robbers. He knew
that there were Malay prows in the- Indian Archipelago ;
but they did not attack our vessels ; they merely attacked
each other. We had at present no such danger to meet as
that which prevailed when the Algerines were sweeping the
Mediterranean with their fleet. In ancient times the
Venetians had a regular ship of war to accompany every
merchant vessel; but no necessity for such an escort at pre-
sent existed; and the great powers of Europe were main•
taining their armaments simply because they were running a
race with each other in a career of folly and extravagance. He
confessed that he did not see anything in the state of the
world that should prevent our making a pacific overture for a
general reduction of the armaments of the great nations of
Europe. He had been tauuted on the preceding evening by
the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) with not
having been a true prophet on the subject of the French
revolution. Now he readily admitted that he had not fore-
, seen a month beforehand an event which such sagacious men
as Louis Philippe and M. Guizot had not foreseen at twelve
o'clock of the day on which it had happened.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed there were very few persons who relied less on
predictions than he did. He merely judged of the future
from the past and the present; and, looking at the present
state of Europe, he thought that we ought to reduce our
armaments. He saw in recent events no symptom of a war
between the great nations of Europe. On the contrary, he
found all nations attempting to settle down according to
their several races, religions, and traditions, in order that
they might each live at home in peace. The Diet at Frank-
fort said they wanted to be German ; the Italians said they
wished to live alone, although Austria was endeavouring to I
defeat that very natural desire. He saw a great guarantee
against our being involved in a European war in the fact
when one great nation conquered another of different race,
language, and religion, that did not benefit them, but was,
on the contrary, a source to them of perpetual weakness.
No man who knew anything of the state of public feeling in
Lombardy and Venetia could doubt that the subjection of
those countries by Austria would be a source of embarrass-
ment rather than of strength to that Power. Let it also
be remembered that Princes and Ministers could net now
dispose of countries and carve out monarchies es they
had done at the Treaty of Vienna. The popular
voice was a new element in the arrangement of

those matters, and in that -popular voice he saw t
a barrier against those wars which had their origin
in the ambition of- crowned heads and the quarrels of
dynastic intriguers. He believed it would at present be
most difficult to induce nations to go to war with each
other; but, they should go "to, war, it was clear that a
victorious country would only have its strength impaired by
territorial aggrandisement. Let the nations of Europe re-
trace their steps, and begin at length a process of disarming.
In this country, and in every other country, was there not a
great necessity for reducing the national expenditure, which
was at present weighing down the people? How prophetic
was the observation of the Right Hon. Baronet the'Member
for Tamworth, that there was more danger to be appre-
hended from a system of oppressive taxation, than from any
foreign invasions which was to be' repelled by armaments.
The Governments of the Continent had found that arma,
ments were no source of strength, in the midst of the discon-
tent created by the excessive taxation of the people.—(Hear.)
Were we not at present pursuing a course which, as private
iudividuals, or as members of any municipality, we should
be ashamed to pursue? We were going on with our ex-
penditure while we had au acknowledged deficit of
1,700,0001. Now, that was the course which nations always
ran when in the headlong career of ruin. If they did ,not
reduce their armaments they could afford no relief to the
people. Let them reduce their naval expenditure by
1,000,0001., and they could take off half the tea duty, and
that would be the best way to increase our trade with
China. He believe.] that this was the time for the English
Government to endeavour to induce foreign countries to
retrace their steps with us, in order that a reduction might
be made, in their and our expenditure. He believed that
France was prepared to enter' on such a course; but in
any case he should wish that we would set other nations
an example of prudence and economy, and he was sure that.
that example would be generally followed. The fact was,
that France had always set such an example. Having
found it stated in the public journals that the French •Go-
vernment proposed to effect a reduction of 30,000,000 E in
their naval expenditure, he had written to a friend of his, a
member of the' National Assembly, to ascertain whether or
not that statement was correct.; and the answer he had re-

ceived was that M. Goudchaux, who was not any mere than
our own Chancellor of the EXchequer encumbered with
riches, had issued a circular to all the Government depart-
ments, stating the reductions which would be necea•
sary in the year 1849, in order_to enable hint to make the
income of the country equal to its expenditure; and his cir-
cular to the Minister of Marine required a reduCtion of
30,000,000 f., which reduction could only. be effected by a
diminution of the Wench navirforce; or rather, by abandon-
ing the increased armaments on which the Government. had

previously reeolved,'as no alteration could be made in the
wages of the men employed, or in the contracts that might
be entered into. He should glory in finding that our Go-
vernment had-set to the whole civilised world tke example
of reducing its armaments. But we could not set that ex-
ample to*the whole- civilised world, b2cause America had

hitherto spent no more than 1,200,0450/. in any one year -on
her navy. ' There were in fact more officers in our navy than
there were sailors in the navy of America. In conclusiomhe
would urge tnd entreat the Government to use some of that

diplomacy which had hitherto been devoted to less beneficial
purposes, in, endeavouring to -induce
_other countries to do

what he hoped we should do without de4y—in endeavouring
to induce them to retrace their steps,- and to diminish their

preparations for aggressive or defensive warfare.—( Hear.)
Admiral BOWLES said it appeared to him that the Hon.
Gentleman who leacljnst sat down committed a great error
in looking at that question merely as a pecuniary one, while
he forgot the great advantages we derived from our naval
expenditure. It appeared to him that the apprehension
created by the state of our-coast-was not unfounded, and
that it was such as no Minister ought 'to neglect. There
could be no doubt that if a war had broken out suddenly in
the year 1844, as it was likely to have done, this country
would have been placed in great danger,- and would have
been totally unprepared for a sudden attack. That unpre-
paredness, however, could not be attributed to the Govern-
ment of the day, but was the result of a system of economy
which had prevailed during the ten preceding years, and
whichhad rendered it impossible to maintain our fleet in a
state of perfect efficiency. It was manifestly desirable that we
should increase our steam navy in particular, after the great
increase which had taken place in the steam navy of France.
The Government of France appeared to think that we had
begun to neglect our maritime power, and that if they were
largely to increase their steam navy they might acquire at
least a temporary naval superiority over this country.
They had made, as he thought, very unwise and un-
justifiable efforts for that purpose, the money they had so
spent having contributed, to bring their finances to their
present unfortunate condition. There• could be no doubt
but that if France had consented to diminish her naval force,
while we pursued the game course, the result would have
been most satisfactory. But France had done the very re-
verse. 'The Chambers, the Government, and the people
seemed to be running a race in preparing for a war with
this country. Circumstances had since changed, and he
hoped that a better spirit had of late sprung up in France;
but he believed no one would deny that while France was .
increasing her naval power it became this country to make
correeponding exertions.. Such exertions had been made by
the Administration of the Right Honourable Baronet the
Member for Tamwoitle of which he (Admiral Bowles)
had bad the honour to be a humble member. He could
bear his full testimony to the necessity of the exertions
which had then been made by the authorities at the Admi-
ralty in this country; and he believed that no expense
had been incurred in that matter beyend that which was
absolutely_ necessary. With respect to the report of the Com-
mittee on the estimates be should only say that he hoped-het
would never again seethe management of the national est..,
penditure taken out of the hands of the Government, and-
referred to a Committee of that House. There was no doubt
but that our naval expenditure' ought to be conducted AS
economically as possible, and he certainly believed that that
was the opinion of the officers of the navy, who were only
anxious that the efficiency of the force should be secured' et
the lowest possible cost. But it should not be forgotten that
saving and economy were two very different things. lie
would recommend his Hon. and Gallant Friends opposite to
direct their best consideration to the building, repairing, and
altering' of ships, in which" great economy might be ob-
served.—(Hear, hear.) All the expenses of 'our dockyards
were of such magnitude that.thnusands of piunds might in
a very short time be unnecessarily expended in repairing of
altering vessels. He would recommend to the Admiralty
that all alterations and experiments of every kind should be
carefully considered by the whole Board, that a minuteihould
be made of the reasons for effecting any alteration, and that
such matters should not be left solely to that Lord of the
Admiralty who might happen to be in communication with
the Surveyor to the Navy. He would also suggest that the
Surveyor, who was an officer of high rank aid character,
should receive a seat at the:Board of Admiralty, where lie
might state his own case, instead of having it stated for hial
by one of the junior officers.
Admiral DUNDAS said that no order was at present gilled
by the Board of Admiralty for altering a vessel without
consulting the Surveyor, who was called before the Board
once or twice every week.
Mr. CORRY defended the increase in the salary of the
second Secretary. The Hon. Member for Montrose had
made a positive statement that the number of theahips o`s
the line was reduced to fifty, but he apprehended that the
Hon. Member merely included those ships which were tit for
sea. He rejoiced to hear the result of the experiments with
the Blenheim, and he had no doubt in his own mind that
within a very few years they would see the screw applied to
a very great extent. He had heard with great satisfactioo
that no intention existed of reducing the number of flag.offi'
cers from 150 to 100, for it would have been one of the most
unfortunate things which could have happened if effect bit",
been given to that recommendation. The very essence o`
the retirement system consisted in securing a continual sue,
cession of young officers, and if they reduced the flag li9"
they would at once go back; to the system of slow promo'
Lion. The Hon. Member for Montrose had referred to th.,
very great waste of public money in injedicious alteration'
made in building ships. He (Mr. C.) believed that a eon'
siderable saving might be, effected bymeans of judicious re'
gulations in this department, and he begged to call attention
to the circumstance, that the last-" Board of Admiralty' b_sse''
constituted a 'Commiffee or Scientific men for the expser,
purpose of superintending the instruction of' apprentices 1"
the science of shipbuilding. With regard- to the measure'
of the present Board of Admiralty the Committee was well
aware that, for the purposeof obviating this evil, a new coo°
of instructions had been drawn up by the Surveyor of tile
Navy, which had been of great benefit to the service. Is t"
course of the present discussion it had been assumed bY,
several lion. Members on the other aide of the House that
all the preparations 'made 'by the late Board of Admiralty
were adopted under the pressure of immediate alarm,
though France had been about to.invade us on the morn);
A more absurd notion it would be impossible to conceive.
was quite true that the relations between this country 11 •
France at the period in question were net of the most plic!'',
character, and that great alarm was felt as to the possibility •
of a war. But he begged to call the attention of the CO"
mittee to the fact that in 1844, when these steam prepare:
tions were taken in hand, the steam-navy in France wis'
larger than that of England, though we had a great supsril:
rity in our. siding-vessels. - He hoped, notwithstanding ti's
peaceful doctrines of the Hon. Member for the West Riding,
that her Majesty's Government would not allow France to
equal us in the amount of her steam navy. He believed thss
a- more efficient steam navy than that possessed by Greas
Britain at this moment was not to be found.—(Hear, bear./
The Hon.' Member for the West Riding said that all this 0;
penditure had been imposed :on She' country because Friinc,,
and other powers were running a race, than which nothins:
could be more absurd. But it.waa not England but Franc;
that set the example. It Meg not be forgotten, too, that
there existed no means of repairing the boilers of steam'
vessels from Liverpool to London, while there was scarcely
s,
a port along the whole line of 'the French coast in which
steam-vessel would not havciouncl the means of refitting had
machinery in case of disaster. The Hon. Member had sti"l
what he could scarcely believe possible, that the cost of 0"
steam navy, and the establishments to keep it in repair, e%,
ceeded that of the whole mercantile navy.
Mr. COBDEN—I spoke of .theMerc,antile steam navy
Mr. CORRY believed that the cost of the merchant stet"'
navy was considerably greater thin that of the War nag;
Sit-Thomas Hastings estimated the total horse power of a
combined mercantile and steam navy'at 70,000 horses, en
said they ought to have the means of repairing this amp°
nave
of horse power. Complainte.Were made that all our neva
establishments were regulated with the view to a pose be
war.. On what other assumption were our defences to id
regulated ?—( Hear, hear.) He hoped this country YPTI,„
always trust for her defence rather to her own resources tol—r
to the mercy of others.—( Hear, hear.) The lion. Menlo
for the West Riding said France was going to disarm. I'o
rejoiced to hear it; and if France disarmed, he bad Tit
objection that England should disarm too. But it was n°:
as the Hon. Member asserted, for this country to set the ex'
ample, because there was no other great power so deficienSlS;
the means of military defence. It had been said that 6,lArif
was fixed in 1833 as the number of teen employed in %a
dockyards; but that was a period of low estimates, 'L.,
when they had reduced their stores to such a state that they
had scarcely a spare sail or mast, and a large vote, at a sus,,
sequent period, was the necessary
_consequence of thatssf;B
tern. He abstained from entering into a discussion ofssss.
report, because the evidence was not yet in the hauls of 11"-ors
Members, but be trusted he should be able, when the rep
had bad been printed, to satisfy the House that the measusso
taken by the late Government in the naval department wises
absolutely necessary for the maintenance of the naval Woe
mace of this country, which he hoped, notwithstandklfCsa,
opinions expressed by the Hon. Member for the West litesS`Z,
no Government of this country would be prepared to co'
don.—(Cheers.) .
Lord J. RUSSELL—Sir, I do not rise for the purs/5/
of entering into a discussion of the navy estimates
tbst,
Hon. Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty has don!. _ tee
and my Hon. Friend opposite, who has been concerned in 00
preparation of navy estimates for the late GovernueS
Wn:.
vesi
also gone very fully into the subject, and, as 1 thineiding
satisfactorily. But the Hen. Member for the e-4 ,r.
t toy
has laid down certain principles which undoubtedlY
slssass-
be of use to consider, at least, with the view to the l'!.711,„ to
tion or e estimates for a future year, and it doese7.eas
ine the principal point for discussion on the presentee
sion. It is impossible now to discuss the report use6ent
wishes to reduce the actual force of the navy for the Plrea.
year; but certain principles were laid down by the lios.°-!. the
ber for the West Riding, on which I think it important for the
House to bestow some consideration with
a view
~, to her
_
future basis of our estimates. Ile Honourable, blew