The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-14 00:00:00

T E SUN, LONDON, FitIDA Y EVENING, AUGUST 14, 1846.

Mr. NEWDEGATE also thought the principle of the
Bill a bad one, and thought that, whatever was done with
it, it should not be made a permanent measure.

Mr. HUME thought they should be careful how they
parted with any of the powers of the House, and he would
advise the Government to postpone the consideration ohe
question. If the colonies were to be placed in a more in-
dependent position, they should take care that they were
placed in such a position as to regulate their own finan-
cial affairs without interference from any British Acts of
Parliament. His opinion was, that the colonies should
have the management of their own financial affairs.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he differed very much
from his Hon. Friend, the Member for Kendal, who had
said that we ought not to allow our colonies any con-
siderable power in regulating their trade according to
their wishes, and he also differed from his Right Hon.
Friend, the Member for the University of Oxford,
who thought that the Legislature ought to pass
an imperial Act with regard to these matters. He
(Lord John Russell) thought that they would have
great difficulty in legislating in that way during the
present session. This country had adopted for • them-
selves generally the principles of free trade, and had
determined not to preserve any differential duties for the
sake of protection merely—that they would not impose
duties upon one country more than on another, or upon
foreign productions more than colonial productions,
or upon foreign productions more than upon our
home productions. But, in applying those prin-
ciples, they must make some exceptions with
regard to the colonies. His Honaurable Friend the
Member for Kendal, had, in the course of the present
session very warmly and ably supported a differential duty
of 15s. upon the articles of timber. He had also supported
the 15 per cent. ad valorem duty upon silk, and he (Lord
John Russell) thought that the Government had now a
right to look to that Hon. Member, consistently with his
votes upon those occasions, for his support on this.
In his (Lord John Russell's) opinion, the fairest
mode of dealing with this question was to allow
the colonies to deal with their matters of com-
merce as they deemed best. The Legislature would
still reserve to the Crown the controlling power by which
an extensive variety and multiplicity of duties might be
avoided, and likewise the power of calling upon the
secretary of a colony to require the governor thereof to
explain to any other colony what were the general prin-
ciples which guided his conduct.
The House then resolved itself into Committee on the
Bill; Mr. GREENE in the chair.

On the let clause having been read,
Mr. BORTHWICK and Mr. HENLEY deprecated the
discussion of so important a matter at so late a period of
the session. The powers given to the colonial legisla-
tures were unheard of.

Mr. C. BUGLER said that the Legislature of this
country had frequently delegated to Canada and other
colonies powers quite as great as those intended to be
delegated to our other colonies by this Bill.
Mr. GOULBUItN denied that those powers alluded
to were as comprehensive as those conferred by the Bill
before the House.

In answer to Mr. SPOONER,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that all that this Bill contemplated was the enabling of
our colonies to repeal as many of the additional duties
as were now imposed upon foreign goods as they pleased.
The clauses were then agreed to, and the Bill reported
without amendment. It was ordered to be engrossed,
and read a third time on Saturday.
The House then resumed.
IRON WAR-STEAMERS.

Mr WAWN wished to know, from the Secretary of
the Admiralty, how many iroa war-steamers were being
built ; and also, whether any experiments have been
tried as to the effects of cannon shot upon iron vessels,
and if those experiments have been satisfactory or not;
and lastly, whether the Government intend to persevere
in the building of iron war-steamers?

Mr. WARIi said, in reply to the first question of the
Hon. Gentleman, that there were 16 iron war-
steamers at present in commission ; that there
were four not in commission, including the Birken-
head, which was 1,400 tons burden, and 556
horse-power. There were seven more building, in-
cluding the Sidon, which was 1,953 tons and 780
horse-power. With respect to the second question, he
said that one experiment had been made, and it would
be highly improper as yet to give any opinion
as to what might be its effect for the
purposes of war. With respect to the
last question, the Board of Admiralty would be ex-
tremely cautious in giving any new orders for building
any more iron war. steamers. They had, however, de-
cided on nothing definitive as yet.

with regard to the mode in which these investi-
gations were conducted. Nos. 6 and 7 returns
he had not any great objzction to, but he
could not agree that any returns such as
those sought under head 8 should be given. It
would lead to the supposition that the death of any
Foldier within a twelvemonth after his being !logged, from
whatever cause, was to be attributed to that event.
As to whether the punishment was inflicted, if in cavalry
regiments by the trumpeters or farrier, and if in infantry
regiments by the privates or drummers, and with what
instrument, he had to state, that in infantry regiments it
was customary for the drummers to inflict the
punishment, and in cavalry regiments the far.
riers. The instrument of punisment was the
" cat," any irregularity as to which could be easily
remedied. With reference to the copies of the
surgeon's minutes of such punishments, and any sub-
sequent othervations on their consequences, he looked
upon them as confidential communications to the com-
manding officer, any attempt to call for which would be
an interference with the discipline of tike army, to which
he could not consent. In fine, he "Zrd not consider
the whole of the return necessary. He considered that
the House had reposed confidence in the Commander in
Chief and the Government with regard to this subject, and
he was sure that every possible care would be taken that
in future the punishment should not go farther than it
ought to go, and that all permanent injury to the indi-
vidual would be avoided. He would conclude by moving
as an amendment the omission of all words after the
word " sentence " in the third line.

Mr. HUME considered that the first four points in
the motion would be amply sufficient—the offence, the
name of the regiment, the place where the punishment
was inflicted, and the number of lashes. He hoped the
Honourable Member (Mr. Escott) would be satisfied
with returns on these points. He (Mr. Hume) did
not see much necessity for information on the other
points. They would then be able to see Whether the
sentence of the court-martial had been properly carried
out or not.

Dr. NICHOLL submitted whether it was necessary to
call fur the whole of such an invidious return. Returns
specifying the offence, the name of the regiment, the
place where the punishment was inflicted, and the sen-
tence of the court-martial, would, in his estimation, be
sufficient to enable the House to judge how that depart-
ment of the Government was conducted. If the whole
return were granted, a stigma would, perhaps, be thrown
on officers who might nut have an opportunity of del'end-
ing themselves.
Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS considered that the re-
turns which the Hon, Gentleman (Mr. F. Nlaule) had
agreed to would be sufficient. The others would, pos-
sibly, cast aspersions on the service. After the expla-
nations in that Reuse, and after the statements of an
illustrious individual elsewhere, he thought that the
Hon. Gentleman would nut have persisted in his motion.
The House and the country could not fail to see that the
practice was growing into disuse, and when the
moral character of the soldier was improved it would
fall into disuse, without being absolutely abolished.
Besides, the measures now being carried out by the
proper departments would have the proper effect. He
had commanded on foreign stations for a quarter of a
century, and could safely say that the punishment was
never resorted to except when absolutely necessary,
and never without a degree of pain to those whose duty
compelled them to resort to it, which ought to prevent
the officers from being stigmatised as wanting in humanity.
There were several measures of great utility that might
be brought forward, and which would, only for the
want of finances. For instance, colonial severities
might be mitigated. He trusted this explanation would
he considered sufficient by the House, and that the
Hon. Gentleman would withdraw his motion.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that giving the
name of the regiment would give rise to invidious com-
parisons, which, at the same time, would be very unjust,
for in one case an army might require punishment, and
in another not. A case to this effect was stated by
General Taylor.

Mr. WAKLEY said that, after having examined,
his opinion was unchanged. Their motion was not
refused without a motive, for he believed it would be
very inconvenient to produce these returns, as
they would give facts to show that the brutal
and disgusting practice of punishment by flogging
ought to be at once and for ever abolished.
He inferred, from what had fallen from the Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite, that in his opinion the practice of flog-
ging had nearly arrived at its termination. Why, when
the number of lashes was reduced from 1,500 to 1,000,
the reduction was hailed with delight by the army,
but still an opinion prevailed that the number
could not be further reduced. The number, however,
was subsequently reduced to 200, and then the reduction
was admitted to be necessary; but still it was thought
in the army that it could not further be reduced. Now
the number had been reduced to 50, and the army ap-
proved of the reduction, but still it was thought the
number could not be further reduced. Now, leaving
out of the question the physical evils which arose
from flogging, leaving out of the question the physical
sufferings which it involved, he asked whether it was
humane, whether it was just, that even the power of
inflicting fifty lashes should exist.—(Hear, hear.) He
hoped that this system of flogging in the army was not
to last for ever. He felt quite certain that no man
could receive fifty lashes from a cat-o-nine tails with-
out his life being in danger. The lash with such a cat,
with nine knots on each thong, was equal to eighty-one
strokes.—(Hear, bear.) Whatever might be the skill
and judgment of the surgeon, it was impossible for him
to say that no danger would arise from fifty lashes. A
feeling was prevalent in the House that the names of
the regiments should not be specified in the returns,
but it was well known there were regiments in
which there were little or no flogging, while
in others there was a great deal, and they should in•
quire into the cause of the difference. He knew of one
regiment in which there had not been a case of flogging
for twenty years, and it was important they should
know the reason why there had been no application for
that punishment. With regard to that return which
required information, as to whether the party had sur-
vived tne punishment, he admitted that the mode of
putting that return was liable to objection, for if the
party did happen to die within the year, it did not
follow that there was any connexion between the death
and the flogging. But that an individual might die a
year after the punishment, and from it, as the remote
cause, no medical man could deny. In this case, when
death did ensue, it was from a secondary disease which
supervened on the effects of the flogging. It was well
known that fifty lashes lacerated the skin very
much, and it was known that the blood began to fly
even after the infliction of twelve lashes. The injury
thus given to the skin might operate fatally to the
individual by acting as a remote cause of death. He
deprecated, however, the lash under any circumstances.
By adopting a system of rewards and punishments dis-
cipline would be more effectually preserved. A man,
when he became a soldier, ought not to cease to be a
citizen—he should not be treated as a slave; and, be-
lieving that the return would be productive of good, be
would vote for the return of the Hon. Member for
Winchester.

Mr. WARBURTON did not deem it necessary to
enter now into the question of corporal punishment.
' He considered the subject immediately before them was
the returns moved for, and of these returns he thought
none of them possessed half the importance of the Bth.
Every one who knew anything of moral evidence must
be prepared to say, upon looking at persons after
flogging, that the average of those who died from its
effects actually exceeded the average deaths from other
causes in the same regiment.—(Hear, hear.) Let them
know the average mortality after flogging, and whether
those who had been so punished died in greatr nombers
than those who were not. Such information would be
most important and useful ; in fact, it was, in his
opinion, the most important part of the motion, and the
Government must present it to the House in an un-
objectionable form. Such a return as this would enable
them to judge with absolute certainty whether the
punishment did or did not affect life or limb, which it
professed not to do.
Mr. C. BULLER thought it would be utterly im-
possible for the Government to find information out of
which to compile the returns for which the Hon. Mem—
ber had moved, as there could be nothing more diffi-
cult than to obtain information as to the average number
of deaths against those who had received corporal
punishment. What they objected to was to furnish
returns which must, from the difficulty in the way,
only mislead the public mind—(Hear, hear)—and lay
the officers of the regiments open to severe animadver-
sion on the part of the public. He would not touch upon
the invidious nature of the return, particularly that por-
tion respecting the number of the regiment. If it should
have happened that in one regiment a man bad died
after being flogged, in that case the regiment would be
run down ; fur in 99 cases out of 100 no ordinary
casualty to human life occurred without some invidious
comparisons being made —(Hear, hear.) He only men-
tioned this to show how slight a ground there was for
the arguments of his Hon. Friends opposite. The Hon.
Member for Kendal sought for a return of the average
number of persons who had died after flogging and other
causes. If they could attain returns for fifty years re-
specting an army of 100,000 men, and 10,000 of them
had been flogged, they might be able to afford some in-
formation on the subject. But he considered that, taking
a few instances, such as these documents would afford,
would lead to numerous erroneous inferences. It
should be remembered that those men who were
punished were generally of a dissolute class.
They would then have to abstract from their inquiry
the results of the general habits of those persons alluded
to. If this would lead to incontrovertible evidence, there
could be no persons more anxious than they were to
produce these documents, but they were satisfied that
they would have quite an opposite tendency, and only
mislead the public mind. With respect to the other
question, as to whether the trials were open to the
public. Now, it was impossible to say whether or not
all these trials were carried on formally or not, for they
would have to ask officers, who would not be likely to
convict themselves. He did not mean to enter into the
abstract principle of the law on this subject, but he
could state that courts-martial were open courts. There
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authorities,
and he understood that there was
subject.
were
ever
averse
Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY said the Hon. Member
for Finsbury
was
to sma
a general rule on the
hthees.army
After a few words from Mr. M. GORE, who said Sir
Charles Napier was not altogether averse to the using of
the lash, i srt
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ent
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Mr. ''SCOTT replied, from the course the discus-
sion had taken, he was at a loss to know what portion
of the returns the Goyain:Dent was dispoaed to all, w
and what to withhold, As far as he could understand

the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule), he was will-
ing to grant all the returns except Nos. 8 and 10.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he was willing to accede
to Nos. 1,2, 3, and 4, and not the others named.
Mr. ESCOTT would then address a few observations
on those returns which the Noble Lord refused. He
considered it was most important that the 1 üblic should
know all about these cases of flogging, the names of the
regiments in which they took place, the order for the
execution of punishment, whether the courts were open or
closed, and all other particulars connected with each case.
What was it that had caused the great diminution of the
punishment? Why, it was the verdict of a jury, chat a
man bad suffered capital punishment where be was only
sentenced to be whipped ; and surely it was a most im-
portant fact, that the public should know how many
similar instances had occurred. He was surprised at the
reason which had been given for refusing the return,
namely, that the communications of the surgeon to the
Commander-in-Chief were confidential. He did not con-
siser that they could refuse these returns, but he should
be contented to take what he could get; however, these
returns, which were now refused, he would get, and that
at no future day. He should get them next session, along
with some others which had been denied. He would tell
the Government, and that in no unfriendly spirit, that
they were destroying the confidence of the House and of
the country by some of their proceedings, and he could
tell them that they would hear more about it at another
time.

Captain POLHILL would support the Government.
He was aware from personal experience of the great ad-
vantages which arose to the discipline of the army from
the practice of flogging. He, when he was commander
of a troop in the service, had a most drunken di: orderly
soldier, upon whom he had tried every punishment in
vain except flogging, at last he was ordered 300 lashes,
and he became positively the cleanliest, and the best
soldier in his regiment.
Dr. NICHOLL would not press an amendment in
consequence of the promise of the Noble Lord.