The Sun.
London, England, 1848-06-02 00:00:00

Janeiro, or to impugn the statement that such a docu-
ment had been exhibited at Lloyd's, and taken down
half an hour afterwards by order of certain members of
the committee? The statement from Rio Janeiro was
confirmed by other letters; and no fewer than six gen-
tlemen had written to him (Mr. Wilson) confirming the
exhibition of the statement at Lloyd's.
Mr.ROBINSON said, as he should afterwards address
the House on the general question, he would rather
defer his explanation till then.—(No, no.) If it was the
wish of the House he would now give it. There was no
difference of opinion whatever as to a certain letter or
extract having been posted at Lloyd's—(Hear, hear)—
or as to the perfect accuracy of the statement made by
the Hon. Member for Westbury.—(Hear, hear.) His
denial was strictly meant to be confined to the inference
drawn from the fact stated, of there being eight first-
class vessels at Rio Janeiro unfreighted, whilst all the
foreign vessels were obtaining freights; that inference
being that the reason of their remaining unfreighted was
the bad character of the ships and the masters.—(Hear.)
That was what he meant to deny; and he should be pre•
pared, when he addressed the House, to state his reasons
for knowing that that inference was an absolute false-
hood. He meant not to insinuate that the Hon. Mem-
ber had made an improper use of the letter, or that the
letter was not genuine; for ho knew that the writer
was a most respectable person, and it had been put into
his hands the next day.
Mr. MITCHELL said be knew the writer of the
letter. It was entirely a letter of business, written
without any reference whatever to the navigation-laws.
The denial of the Hon. Member for Poole having gone
before the public, a gentleman who had recently re-
turned from Rio Janeiro had come forward, and stated
that the matter was precisely as it had been represented
by the Hon. Member for Westbury, and that the reason
why the English ships were unchartered was the general
bad conduct of the English captains. He added that
most houses in Europe had given directions to their
agents there not to charter English ships at all if they
could get foreign ones.—(Hear, hear.) Such was the
statement given by parties who had no interest what-
ever in the navigation-laws.
Mr. ROBINSON—I shall be prepared to show that
the statement with respect to the bad character of the
masters and the ships is altogether untrue.
Mr. MITCHELL—I said nothing about the badness
of the ships.
Mr. MOFFATT regretted that the forms of the
House had prevented him from presenting a petition
from his constituents against any alteration of the navi-
gation-laws. He did not agree in the sentiments of that
petition; but believed, from the favourable effect of past
changes during the last 20 years, that the alteration
now proposed would be beneficial. From the moment
that our tonnage had been in excess of the quantity re-
quired for our coasting and colonial trade and for the
fisheries, the benefit of the navigation-laws bad ceased,
but the obstructions which they created had continued.
Many Hon. Members had expressed great alarm as to
Abe effect of this measure, but they had failed to show
any ground for it. Even the Hon. Member for
,Stamford (Mr. Herries), who had expressed such
Igreat anxiety about the coasting-trade, had not
been able to show how it would be damaged. He
was quite at a loss to account for the alarm felt with
regard either to continental shipping or that of the
United States. The returns show that the latter
had regularly increased for the last twelve years ; but
the registered tonnage of most of the continental
countries was extremely trifling in amount. That of
France, according to the latest returns he could obtain,
was only 600,000 tons; that of Austria, in 1838, 130,000
tons; of Norway, 282,000 tons; of Sweden, 118,000 tons;
and for the whole of Europe the total was only 1,594,000
tons. Adding that of the United States, 2,562,000, the
total was 4,156,000 tons, against a tonnage of 4,560,000
for Great Britain; and the carrying power of our ships
:was 20 to 25 per cent. greater than that of foreign ves-
sels. After advancing so far as we had done in free
trade, this measure could not be longer delayed. We
'were bound to give it to our colonies ; and the only
question that remained was whether we would abolish
this foolish aid destructive law for the long voyage.
Though be was highly favourable to this mea-
sure as a whole, many of its details seemed
to him to require consideration. Let the marine of
this country be relieved from all unnecessary taxa-
tion, and it would be a benefit, rather than an injury, to
expose it to free competition with that of other countries.
At present the marine of this country paid a tax of
400,000/. per annum for light dues, one-fourth of which
would suffice. It was proposed to allow the registration
of foreign built ships as British ships, where they be-
longed jo British owners. This would be the only in-
stance in which the importation of a foreign manufac-
tured article was allowed without paying a duty of ten
per cent. It had been alleged that the Americans would
engross a great portion of the carrying trade of our
West India colonies. But, looking at what had taken
taken place in Canada, where the trade was already open,
he did not think this at all likely. As to the China
trade, he did not think the Americans would ever suc-
cessfully compete with us there; for America had very
little produce to send to China, and consequently could
not bring much back. In regard to the China trade, he
thought that this measure would be very beneficial, be-
cause at present there was frequently a deficiency of
ships to bring produce from China, which this measure
would tend to supply. He did not believe that the mea-
sure would be detrimental to British shipping, and he
would, therefore, give it his cordial support.
Mr. ROBINSON. did not think there ever was a mea-
sure submitted to the House involving such momentous
consequences which was supported by such feeble argu-
ments. The Right Hon. Gentleman presented a peti-
tion the other evening, signed by 272 bankers, mer-
chants, &c., of London, in favour of the measure. He
looked over the names attached to that petition, and he
found that there were but few of the large merchants of
London to be found in it.
Mr. LABOUCHERE—The Governor and Deputy.
Governor of the Bank of England.
Mr. ROBINSON—It was principally signed by soli-
citors, tradesmen, and shopkeepers. But what would
the Right Hon. Gentleman say to the petition which had
been presented to the House by the Right Hon. Gentle-
men the Member for Stamford, which was signed by
1,900 of the principal bankers, merchants, and traders of
London ?—(Hear, hear.) He would find that the names
attached to that petition far outweighed those appended
to the petition he presented. And with regard to peti-
tions generally on the subject, arose against the mea-
sure were far more numerous than those presented in its
favour.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
said that Jamaica and Canada petitioned in favour of the
measure. That was true ; but their object in doing so
was to indemnify themselves at the expense of the
Brttish shipowners for the loss which they suffered
from the free-trade legislation of that House. He
therefore attached no importance to the applications
from those places. The. Right Hon. Gentleman then
spoke of a menace from Prussia if they did not alter
their navigation-laws. He hoped that this country had
not yet fallen into such a position that they would be
required to alter their policy with respect to commerce
and navigation at the menace of Prussia or any other
state.—(Hear, hear.) Prussia had nothing to offer
them in exchange; besides that, the policy of Prussia,
as the principal state of the Zollverein, was not such as
should induce them to pass a measure for her benefit.
The Right lion. Gentleman said also that the United
States promised to reciprocate if they passed this mea-
sure. He had watched for several years the legislation
of that country, and he could not see anything like a li-
beral commercial policy in her measures. After the intel-
ligence of the intention of the Government of this country
to alter the navigation-laws had reached America, one of
the most respectable papers of Washington expressed its
delight "because," it said,"the enterpriseof our merchants,
and the advantages we enjoy, will enable us to acquire
a'large portion of the trade with the British colonies."
—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Robinson) believed the effect
of this measure would be to throw the whole of the in-
ter-colonial trade into the hands of the Americans, be-
cause, situated as America was in respect to those
colonies, it would be impossible for the British ship-
owner to compete with her. From the time of Wash-
ington to that of Mr. Polk the object of the American
Republie was to create a powerful marine force ; and
this measure, if unhappily it should pass, would greatly
contribute to that result. As America had' not the least
advantage to offer them in return they were not called
upon to pass such a measure as the present. He com-
plained of the mode and means adopted by the Govern.,
went to carry their measure—he alluded more particu-
larly to the letter which had been sent to their consuls
abroad. So far, however, from the consuls having
reported universally against British ship-masters, they
had frequently given reports favourable to them. He
maintained, however, that British consuls, who
were generally persons who once belonged to the army,
were not the fittest judges on such a subject. If the
Government wished for correct information they
should not have sent the leading letter which Mr.
Murray wrote.—(Hear.) Was it worthy the Governs
merit to seek to blacken the character of respectable
men ?—(Hear.) There were some amongst them who
might be liable to animadversion, but on the whole the
masters of British ships were as respectable as any other
Glass of persons.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman then
proceeded, to read extracts from the letters of the eonsuls
in reply to the letter which had been addressed to them.
Mr. Brooker, the consul at Cronstadt, said that for 59
years only two cases had occurred there of masters ob•
structing the custom-house officers. Two men had been
accused of theft. This was all that could be alleged
against British seamen in Cronstadt for a period of 59
years, although there were 500 ships a year there on the
average, with crews amounting to 295,000.—(Hear,
hear.) Colonel Whitehead, of Archangel, said that
there were a few cases of charges against Britishlinas.
ters, but they were comparatively rare. Colonecl
ght'
of Riga, Mr. Games, of Odessa, Consul Liddel, ,fr
..Memel,
and Mr. M‘Gregor, of Elsineur, made reports of a similar
nature.

An Hoii. MENDER here moved that the House be
counted. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but the
requisite number of Members being present,
Mr. ROBINSON continued his address by saying he
was surprised that on so important a subject—one which
it was desirable to have fully discussed—an attempt
should have been made to count out the house.—(Hear,
hear.) He would read no more of the consul's reports,
but would observe merely that they were not generally
unfavourable to British shipmasters. Now, in reference
to the statement of the lion. Gentleman opposite, that
British vessels could not get freighted at Rio Janeiro in
consequence of the bad character of the vessels, whilst
foreign vessels readily got freighted, he begged to say
that he had received a letter dated the Ist of April (the
very date to which the lion. Gentleman referred), in
which it was stated that the reasons why the British
vessels were not freighted was, that the masters would
not accept the low freightage offered them.—(Hear, heal)
The Hon. Member had accepted his information too
readily and too credulously, and he ought to have taken
some pains to ascertain,
i not only that the fact was cor-
rect, but that the inference he drew was warranted,
Mr. WILSON—It is not my infereade""

Mr. ROBINSON—The Right lion. Gentleman re
late*
ferred to Holland as a country that had formerly, a ,
commercial marine and navy without a navigationes;
That is as true; but then there was no analogy betiv_eeon.
the case of Holland in those days, and the case of E
land at the present time, because there
same competition which existed now, and moreov 1-1,.
land was not burdened with a debt of 800,000 000/ -:;
(Hear, hear.) He could assure the House, that if t_nes
Government prevailed on it to adopt free trade nierfto
to such an extent, this country would not be apw„..
compete,with foreigners, and the effect would bee 01,i!.
place a great part of the commercial marine
bt tills
was not the 11
country.•,-(Hear, hear.) But some persons m al_f
what consequence was that of. -And a naval over
novt
some standing said that the commercial marine,..wnsd: if
necessary to the manning of the navy of Eng"' he
he had not read the evidence of Captain Stirlln
li-el
could not have believed that any naval officer
ef. !00,
jeeed
He bele
have given such an opinion.—(Hear, hear.) before
that the evidence of naval men would be given that
the Committee, which was sitting elsewhere, 0.0,11.
subject, which would completely controvert that
The Hon. and Gallant Member for Christchurch (.o.l'it
Harris) had contradicted it already, and declared tae_;is
was impossible to maintain that the conimercialier
was not instrumental in manning the navy. •Licfi,
_or•
would ask, was the navy to be manned in case °f d
gency ?—(Hear.) It was true Captain Stirlingi;ol
plan of his own, namely, to keep up such
largo fode,
establishment in time of peace as would render .itelos,
pendent of the commercial marine. But would in i;-'she
Member for Montrose sanction such a plan? sot
country, in a period of financial embarrassment,,uv gel
to keep up an immense naval armament in time Or Pet the
He had to complain that it was sought to coneeeliey
system of impressment with British shipowners..
01_,ties
had nothing to do with it. It was the naval autb
_r;or
of the country who were responsible for it. He
raver,
to
posed to the system, but ho did not see how they,7oo
do without it in time of war. How would they PII!,0 50
then to man the navy If their commercial rnarile4 the
much reduced as he expected it would be ungegjo)
Bill? The Honourable Member opposite (Mr- ft.the
accused them of entrapping apprentices why,
purpose of transferring them to the navY• .es ore
was the naval authorities that forced apprentic
them mhuch to their disadvange.—(flear,
t
contended that if the measureta passed, the English 000
owner would be placed in a disadvantageous
with respect to the foreigner.—(Hear, bear•l. tilt
British shipowner would not be on an equality timber
foreigner. He could not, for instance, iniP°l4 diet
to build his ships duty free. He bad also tesilY., bUt
restrictions imposed on him for national purncle:/oro.
he did not want to shake off those restrictions
_.."sirifie
tection was continued ,to him. The confinercial_":oo
of foreign countries had greatly increased of hit„eh, ibi
The difference between vessels entered inwards ikprvtioeili
United States, Prussia, Denmark, and Swede°oo
the years 1824 and 1846, as compared with 3,910
Great Britain, was in favour of those Ste° Legge'
, pay
vessels and 707,700 tons. He did not wish it) ,ittloo/'
rate the matter but as the cacit
of foreign.-
iv
to ".
and particularly of France and America, coeiPe
any,
them was growing greater and greater eve-el
-Dot
was in his opinion the greatest act of folly, !tetieili•
insanity, that could be committed to give tilos f: 001'
tional advantage which this measure would affe_l; .1111
—(Hear, hear.) Then, as to authority, it whoa fir;
favour of the navigation-laws. Mr. Huskies°l3ntiptecil:i
Wallace, whilst they were in favour of the l•-cioeito
system, would not consent to abandon the
principle of the navigation-laws. If he weT:toSelil
the days of Sir Joshua Child, and even A"" otieg.
whom gentlemen opposite were so fond of,Vog
would be found that they were for maintsll/1 Ole 40
laws. Indeed, nothing could be stronger th1.„13 Fr°,,
nion of Dr. Adam Smith in favour of thLeleo.ls'S;
beginning to end the anatomy of the noLly„yeriiii,3,ole
was a tissue of ribaldry and prejudice. If add i',"11;
dreds and thousands to the mass of
succeeded in carrying this measure they wc°' .t
pies to
paupers -onlydid
in our country. And all this would be di:in° tete
twill- diet
secure an uncertain advantage; for, if the a• ef c la
increase commerce, it would be the conimeleehe sbeLio
io
power. Even if it should
countries. If such a Bill was introdtlee'llon
watch it very closely, and give it every oppotl be hoPo
there would be sufficient • • to reject
patriotism goo
House of Lords. ther,,,fog
in favour of carrying pass that House' it in
Mr. T. A. MITCHELL said that when iv-ofier
Gentleman the chairman at Lloyd's exPress.lo Pr' lie
ence to carrying them in those of foreigni "to tbilAl
cargoes by British sh'P"„Ation9' of
was expressing an opinion entirely oPPcsesu the
every underwriter in that house. Two 0' tee v"
favour of the superior desirabilit
writers of Lloyd's bad been examined befcr:tjeace,;eo
mittee last year, and had given decided
f Arline cPe
bottoms. In a recent case at theYHoavesenabkrtcille t°tlls
tea
in a foreign ship, had
reighoo-decatbrietcoefete
of sugar for St. Petersburgh, one in a firit'i•
British ship was so dambaegeend ains
foreign ship's cargo had arrived safely thi/ cite 0100
premium to be refunded in order to make
sutored; 10- „go Cu the
At the present time there was absolutely o°.soci tre'
the merchants against the captains of sowers dot,
of vessels going short voyages the ear"-d
°le s
thNbiquestionh.:aoeedo
Look
hadaat our
oo
theseuf
onr
Ia freews o
Canada
eretrade.trades
commerce
Tsea
quently men of very indifferent skill iisotire'ipolt
This was, according to his viewithe
New ;York at 2s. ld. per barrel, whilst
e
that if cost for freight upwards of 4s, from
rlbec flour o uethe
e caws $Le st :rb-yr-ac°3l:tasgtielle!!!
nished. Delay
world would be increased, and that c°feenitillt
prices of freights would be increased ratheroideu,,',oo
had often happened to him at Rigs that "'lees. the
in shipments would also het". 00
unable to obtain British vessels to take hisgersided °O reef
conviction was, that if facilities were s"°, the
importation of goods, England would beech:l;f etoe'roin
commercial depot of the world. EmPleYwrelabehreptite
given to our docks, to our ships, and to lit,tept t°4the
every department; indeed he could not a 1" ewe
the benefits which would result as a conseaquto 0°3170°
repeal of the existing system. With regard top oe
tion, not one single argument had he beats t wiv.fedi
that British ships would not be able to coniPieto eeli,eboa
ships of every other nation of the world. world hip
for his own part, that so country in
thefittiog ego,
such advantages in building and ciut h
as we had. No country possessed oleo the
tages of obtaining teak, oak, fir, and o°4o6o'olf
of our Australian colonies. As regardeud 0,0
topner fo t
cost of outfitting in the north of Engl4nia corner
about
rouirafnorwcaarnkv,asasn,
dl5/.6.ppeerr Wtohoui.derepheter
105. per IL
work. There was no other country that e° li.gore
with these prices. Then as to sailors, we Pbie 0%0
rates for the captains, and it was most desire 0, tbeaij,
should do so. But as to the common than eel'
in the Baltic trade the Swedes paid less t-e so Br of
yet,, the cost of the American marine was clucijoetageteli
illeso as to peoviaions, we had all the, 611 thegetbit
provisioning our vessels cheap; and wit", 5,4 ain „erg
vantages surely it would not be coatenciea ogee •ei
foreign c • •
ompetition was likely to injur 0011 00,
• e us. OW .1
competing at the present time with foreig•eshiP
other
under all the disadvantages of the apprentl._ nett
er systems; these would be entirely or doubt of "fie
pealed,. and if th were could there be any ees
being able to compete with the greatest sue° fteni' 1
herT,haeftMer,
had considered the
rest
$ r
question with the gre cogs
and he was fully assured that we should beg r
by the repeal of these laws 3fetiet
• ITO 01
,Dtain6 tfiiogi
adrecinuoisunocfinGgßOAuNr 13sYhosrtat tyh'sagtethce-1-Icsp•.%g
inferior character to the East India and ChA-ci
and as, consequently, lowering the position an Pet
ill
A 0 lone
the interests of our carrying trade, proposed, or of
gically, to remedy the matter by destroyinEogiossof
voyage traffic altogether, and to restrict the vrb°o3.
our ships to the coasting and fishing trade. ,ho eoliteas
denied that our ships could compete, under 'defere-eo,
plated change, with the foreign carrier. The of sellgocl
in the cost of our ships, and our higher rsties,_oog
as evidenced by Mr. George Frederick oess
other eminent authorities, wholly precluded tlit"efed
lity of our successful competition, unless Pro epec,so.lo
statutory regulations. The lion. Gel:Atonal% fore": -
himself admitted the advantage possessed 11 040
ship-builder by the clause which enabled Eng ir teen! 0.
owners to purchase foreign vessels and to regi'te,,oerngott
English ships. He called upon the Housedne%sititilild,
larly at a period of such distress, not to diffuse pitied'
among the workmen connected with our shiPeffectilhoo
by consenting to a measure which would
_fled 01/.
destroy that class of labour ; and he further seemed
0o
them, at a moment when a Continental wars:loA
pending in which we ourselves might be ib alons
to break up that class of operatives to whin us whe
dockyards could look in case of emergency.
denied that there was any necessity, or even ph
ad bhp,
for calling for this change of a system whin fie eo.
sanctioned by nom© of our greatest statesmen•
e the tel.
sidered the measure as a practical proof the de priord
traders had fallen off in their faith in free-tr° 00°40
pies, or they would not, in support of them, P" reen!',,
tas to to
their apprehension of Prussia's creating $ cost to
marine, or a free. trade of her own. .A 9 ta 00. WO le
trade, Captain Stirling's and other evidence, entire;
show that the railways would in a few Yehrseio; lif;
break this up. Already, many of our vehs•ooecl
viously engaged in this trade, had disconti to on
in consequence of the railways from Le e:1 I°o°
various ports, and between the Po'ibing
themselves. It was a very difficult
()twig the
keep our heads just above water, while aillnd to eda
American vessels to be coming front Eng'— our ;
United States, and to allow America to usurP
toed Ohs
Ito and from China and our colonies. He con bee°°cl
if this change were effected, Hamburgh w° tit inittelo
the warehouse for China goods for the Centine went
of London; there
this in the unfairly lower rates for warehoosll_l_s„,,bouilr
was already too much in,(l_llcieo
burgh and other foreign ports, for while thsedw,7l.e-rent
of a ton of tea at London cost 165. "' at. wore 11 0
6d.,
6d., and the rent 2s. The apprenticeehip,l,sidontsg,„
the warehousingcharges in Hamburgo
6tezt had
0,
doubt been felt as an inconvenience and
but the shipping interest had been all alopg__Dtributlot
submit to this disadvantage for the sake of "•De;
supree3 cat
its aid to the maintenance of our naval wealth he
lion. Gentlemen reflect that the amassing oi_ shown t"..,
hen Solon vagi' score('
not the only thing needful ; w ,nets sae
rgOlP
riches of Crams he said to him,
he Rill take Y°l2oos
with iron, stronger than your gold, ,n, of Lien doe
away." The Noble Lord quoted the opi anion bade
_ice,
Brown to prove that the apprenticesh
aval
cy
fogresil_tserinettetrtPef,
much to prove the composition of our_r"si effichie"ti;,
in strength, stature, discipline, and
vTi
gh
ae There
nw.
la sa
wne! immediate
There
any such measure as the present. v.? that
feeling
there had been manifested a strong e
h a dnecbeeesnsiqno _T
vigation-laws ought not to be tamp
proce_e'bo
cry that had been raised was that which w
from foreign nations, And were foreign 14.,