The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-10 00:00:00

NUNS OF MINSK.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished to know
from the Noble Earl the Secretary for Foreign Affairs
whether he had recently received any further intelli-
gence respecting the persecution which these indivi-
duals had undergone in Russia. Ile had seen
in the newspapers of that morning some additional par-
ticulars respecting them, and he wished to know if the
Noble Lord had received any documents ?
The Earl of ABERDEEN had seen a copy of the re-
port recerred to by the Noble Marquis, which appeared
in that morning's papers, and he had every reason
to believe that that statement was correct. When the
subject was referred to by a Noble Lord, a few even-
ings ago, he took the liberty of saying that it was one
with which they had nothing to do, and he considered
that it would be most unwise in them to take any steps
in reference to it. At the same time he expressed, and
further declared, his belief that there were no grounds
whatever for the accusation. There might be ecclesias-
tical severity, and religious persecution, but he did not
think that there were any of the atrocities cammitted
which were alleged. The very existence of the. person
in the present transaction was called in question, and it
was ascertained that there was no official deposition made
at Rome similar to that which had appeared.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said it was a
source of great satisfaction to him, and it would be to the
country, to hear the statement of his Noble Friend.
Lord BEAUMONT said he would wish to say one
word upon this subject. He did not wish to say now
whether lie believed these statements or not ; but he quite
agreed with the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign
Affairs that this House could not interfere in the matter.
LAW OF MORTMAIN.

Lord BEAUMONT said he had a petition to present,
signed by a large number of very wealthy inhabitants
of Durham and Northumberland, praying that
steps might be taken to- restrain the power of
th Roman Catholic Bishops in the law of Mort-
main, or else the result would be oppressive to the
clergy to 1 unjust to the laity.
Lord BROUGHAM said he was aware that many
highly respectable Roman Catholics, possessed of very
large property indeed, had declared that they
thought the law of mortmain did not go far enough in
affecting real property only. He was aware that some
of those persons were worth five and six thousand a year
He was desirous of obtaining the same advantages in
the law of England as is obtained in the provision
of the French law ; he believed that according
to the code of Napoleon it was devised that
no clergyman, medical officer, or solicitor, who
was in attendance during the last illness of any in-
dividual, should take any bequest under his will
without a very explicit declaration of his feelings, and
he thought too great care could not be taken in
this country, or the subject.
Lord CAMPBELL could not refrain from expressing
the very high satisfaction he felt at the general good
sense his Noble and Learned Friend had just now
evinced. lie believed that it was highly necessary
to obtain the advantage of securing an individua
in a case of severe illness, from solicitations to rob
his own family, from what was generally termed
pious purposes. It was the law of every other country
in Europe, and the regulations of those laws were, if
possible, most stringent, and the greatest care was taken
to hinder the attempts of interested indiviluals from
interfering with persons who were quite unable to think
for themselves, and he thought that any measure that
might be determined upon on the part of Government
would be in the highest degree satisfactory.
CORN- L .9.

The Duke of RUTLAND presented several petitions
against any alteration in the corn-laws.
SCOTTISH SCHOOLMASTERS.

The Duke of RICHMOND wished to inquire whether
any steps were likely to be taken by the Government to
revive the Committee of last year for providing any
suitable dwellings for the schoolmasters in Scotland ? It
was well known that the Commission of last year led to
no result.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCII said that the Committee
of last year was likely to be revived this session, but
it waited for the attendance of several Noble Lords that
reside in Scotland, and whose assistance it was desirable
to obtain in that Committee; the subject had not escaped
the attention of Government, and as soon as they ob-
tained the report of this Committee they were prepared
to act. He hoped in the course of a day or two, in conse-
nuence of the attendance of Noble Lords to whom he
alluded, to move the re appointment of the Committee.
PROTECTION OF LIFE AND PROPERTY (IRE-
LAND) BILL.

Lord DENMAN said that he would proceed in the
shortest possible manner to state to their Lordships his
views with regard to the Coercion Bill for Ireland. In
the first place, he had heard with abhorrence and regret
the statement which had been made in that House the
other night, when its sanction to the Bill had been so-
licited. He did not mean to enter at any great
length on the Bill, but he believed that the less
stringent the Bill was in its nature, and the less it inter-
fered with the ordinary feelings of mankind, the more
likely it was to be efficient With regard to the first
clause giving to the Lord Lieutenant the power of placing
any district where a solitary offence had been committed,
under the operation of the Act, it was altogether
too great a stretch of authority. It appeared that where
any murder or attempt at murder had been made, or
any assault, with intent to inflict grievous bodily harm,
had been perpetrated, that that solitary fact was to be
sufficient ground for calling this measure into action.
The House was aware that such crimes were occa-
sionally committed in every country, mid yet the com-
mission of a single crime was to be a justification for
using this Act. He had suggested to their Lordships
that the justices of the peace in every county should
make a representation to the Lord Lieutenant, in the
event of this measure being necessary, bat that pro-
position was not approved of. He had, however, found
on inquiry that the Lord Lieutenant had sufficient
information from the ordinary police reports, and he
- (Lord Denman) could not see the objection to giving
his Excellency the power of calling this Act into opera-
tion, on his own responsibility, a 3 such a course would
be preferable to the present system.—(Hear, hear.)
With regard to the transportation clause, where any
person found out of his dwelling after sunset and before
sunrise was liable to that punishment, he confessed
that he could not help feeling a very strong reluc-
tance to an Act granting such a power, with-
out the fullest proof of the necessity for it.
He owned that the mere right of taking up indivi-
duals who have been found out after sunset and before
sunrise, was, in in his opinion, giving a very extended
power to the Executive Government. He thought,
therefore, that the person so taken into custody should
be allowed to make an explanation before being taken
to prison ; and he was glad to find that this
clause had been altered in the Bill, for this purpose
the person being taken immediately before the petty
sessions. He was sorry to find that there was one con-
dition in that clause which pressed rather hardly
upon the individual—he meant that which provided
that if oily one magistrate were sitting at the ses-
sions the person should be taken to prison. He thought
the liberty of the subject ought not to depend upon the
accident of only one magistrate being at the time
at the petty sessions. He regretted also that the punish-
ment consequent upon the offence was so severe. He
felt a repugnance to transportation for fifteen years, or
(as it was now reduced) seven years. He did not
think this severe punishment would be attended with
any good effect. Their Lordships were perhaps aware
that a transportation for seven years was in many cases
a transportation for life, because persons in
that humble station of life could not always
command mand the means of returning home. He was told
transportation was a punishment they &ended, and
that they cared nothing fur imprisonment ; but the
power of apprehending was '
a Dower for the prevention
of mischief for the
me at least, and let the House
depend on it that imprisonment was not a light
punishment to
a induced the other labouringday man. He had been
speak to the Noble
Lord who had introduced°
view of making the punishment the
measure, with a
Taroi!ee ortihnate, that was
to say that the individual
niinuslightly punished
for the first offence, more
heavily
the second, and when °mindul punished for
third
time that he should be held contumacious,htue and
sentence of transportation be passed p
There was other subject to which he wouldoT him.
i refer
It was that which related to the change of venue to.
another county to that in which an offence was com-
mitted. If a strong ease was made out for this Act at all,
then ought the power to change the venue be given, in
order to put down such schemes and associations as were
supposed by the Act to exist. —(llcar, hear.) The law
Which existed in this country on the subject ought to
be extended to Ireland. He could not agree with the
Noble and Learned Lord bshind him, that it was
a great privilege for parties charged with offences
to be tried by their neighbours ; there were many cases
in which it would operate injuriously for persons to be
tried within the limit of small Jurisdictions ; and
there were many instances in which it was
niuch more convenient for offenders to be tried
out of the county in which the offences were
committed than in it. There were many parts in Lan-
cashire, Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, in which it was

found much more convenient to try parsons in the ad•
joining county. It was a great consolation to him (Lord
Denman) to learn that the Noble Lord (the Earl St. Ger-
mans) in his statement the other evening, did not state that
juries were intimidated in the discharge of their duties ;
still he (Lord Denman) could not but think that such
must be the case if the violence and insubordination stated
to be the foundation of the Bill bad an existence. It
would be better and safer in his opinion, however, that
instead of introducing the power of changing the venue
in any particular Bill, like the one he was considering,
to introduce the principle into a general Act of Parlia-
ment, so that the practice might be the same in

Ireland as in England. The practice of the Court of
Queen's Bench, in his opinion, ought to be made gene-
ral, and he would, therefore, submit this point to
the consideration of her Majesty's Government.
With regard to the 20th clause, he had every objection
to its becoming a part of the Bill, for it appeared to him
that it should not be a local or temporary Act. It was
one of the greatest offences which could be committed,
and he did not see why they should have the
odium of making it a particular instead of a
general Act. He had great regret in finding that
particular circumstances rendered it necessary
that it should be applicable to any part of
_the United_._
Kingdom ; but he submitted that it was an offence which
should be made the subject not of a particular but of a
general law. He also felt that the punishment of trans-
portation was one which ought not to be lightly in-
flicted.
Lord BROUGHAM agreed with some ef the obser-
vations made by the Noble Lord who hadjust sat down,
and he especially agreed in every opinion he had expressed
that the law should be general, not particular. He
would not now refer to his own amendments, but would
come to the punishment of transportation. Now, ho
denied that the punishment of transportation was one
inflicted for a light offence. In the first place
the case was one where a discretionary power
was given to the Judge who should try the pri-
soner,- and it could not be inflicted unless the
individual apprehended was arrested under suspi-
cious circumstances. To be convicted even then,
it must be proved to the satisfaction of a jury
that the individual was out not on a lawful occasion.
Unless the jury were satisfied that such was the fact they
could not act on it. It had been said that there would
be no possibility of a party ?roving the lawfulness of
the occasion on which he was out, but it was
not from being out that a man would be
taken up. because he would not be under any
apprehension unless in a district that had
been proclaimed, and in such a district nothing could be
easier than for a man to provide himself with evidence
by which to prove the lawfulness of the occa-
sion.—(Hear, hear.) The fact of a man being
out merely, would not be sufficient to warrant
h's arrest ; but if a man were found with
a pistol, or a bludgeon, or a dagger, and with a baud of
fifty others, then indeed he would be liable
to be arrested, and should account for himself.
Why, the fact of being out with others under such cir-
cumstances, would render any individual liable to the
imputation of being out for treasonable purposes. Me did
not mean to say that this being out would amount to
a treasonable act, but he could not but say that many a
lesser act had amounted to rebellion against the queen's
authority. The individual charged was not to be liable
to transportation for being out at night, bat for being so
under suspicious circumstances. He was glad, however,
that in consequence of the suggestion of his Noble
Friend the duration of the Act was to be confined for
three years. He thought there was very good reason
assigned for such a decision of the Legislature, for if the
Act was sufficient for the purpose, the sooner it was
repealed the better, and if it were insufficient fur that
object they would then have it in their power to provide
a more efficient remedy for the subject.
Earl GREY could not help believing that the Noble
and Learned Lord who had just sat down had entirely
misapprehended not only his own motion but the amend-
ment of the Lord Chief Justice. He thought the Noble
and Learned Lord had conceived that the fact of an
individual being out at night was a far more serious
offence than it was ; and unless there was also the ad-
dition of very suspicious circumstances, the serious sen-
tence of transportation was far too grave for the offence.
Now it was very easy to create suspicious circumstances
where they never existed. A man might go out under
the pretence of meeting a friend, whereas his real ob-
ject might be to join a party of Whiteboys. Another
might go out with the real intention, it might be, to
commit an act of Whiteboyism ; and he thought it was
too heavy a punishment to subject a man to trans-
portation for a mere act of thoughtlessness, and for
leaving after nightfall the miserable cabin to which
during twelve or sixteen hours they confined him. The
more he considered the subject the more he felt it con-
trary to justice that so heavy a punishment should be
given to so slight an offence. They might say that it
would not be a slight offence if a man were found out
at night with a pistol and a dagger in •• 'ocket, and
evidently going to the commission of offence. If
he was taken up there could be no difficu y in providing
that he should be searched, and if he was found to be
armed or disguised, it would be easy to make that a se-
parate offence by a clause to that effect. It was not just
that so severe a punishment should be gills equally to
men guilty of a serious offence and men 'Billy guilty of
a breach of police regulation. He had been surprised at the
way in which the Noble Lord had bolstered up his view
of the case, but while he had had the honour of a seat
in that or the other Hone, he had never seen so slight
an offence visited with a heavy punishment.
Lord BROUGHAM said, that if the Noble Lord
lived much longer, he would see much stranger things.
He had taken to himself all the credit of the proposi-
tion of the Lord Chief Justice, but he should remember
while he was talking of heavy punishments for slight
offences, that for the venial offence of being out after
sunset he had proposed that a man should be imprisoned
for three years.
Earl ST. GERMANS suggested that the discussion
of the measure should be postponed until to-morrow,
when several amendments would have to be taken into
consideration. The Noble Lord, while complaining of
the power given to the Lord Lieutenant, had proposed
to give him a larger discretionary power than the Bill as
it at present stood allowed him. It seemed to him that
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland might take, upon his
own responsibility, the power of proclaiming any par-
ticular district ; and he thought it was a sufficient limit-
ation that he could not proclaim any district in which
the crime of murder, or a crime approaching to murder,
had not been committed. He confessed, then, that he
did not see the advantage of adopting the suggestion
made by the Noble and Learned Lord ; but he at the
same time was free to confess that he would like to see
the amendment which the Noble and Learned Lord
proposed on the subject. With regard to changing the
venue, he had taken the liberty of suggesting to the
Noble and Learned Lord on the woolsack to withdraw
his amendment, because he considered that the matter
called for the general consideration of Parliament,
whether they should not make this a general measure,
as h. e was convinced that the amendment did not do
Justice to this important subject. With regard to the
20th clause, he coincided in the opinion expressed by
the Noble Lord, and if the Bill which the Noble and
Learned Lord had introduced were passed this session,
he should altogether agree with him that there was no
necessity for this clause. But they all knew that the
passing of any measure through both Houses of Par-
liamentin the course of a session was a matter of great
uncertainty, and therefore he thought it better that the
20th clause should be allowed to remain in the Bill.
With regard to transportation, he also agreed in a con-
siderable degree with the Noble and Learned Lord.
The Noble Earl who sat opposite had drawn a very
forcible picture in his speech the other evening, and he
had been so much pleased with his own performance that
he had again presented the same picture to them. He
had presented a picture of an innocent man, who had
been out after sunset for the purpose of seeing a sick
friend, and of a guilty man, who had used the same pre-
text, but had been rosily out for the purpose cf joining a
party. The Noble Earl asked if it would not be very
hard to transport the innocent man who had been found
out under such circnmstances, but in his conscience he
(liarl St. Germans) believed that the Noble Earl's own
amendment of three years with hard labour, was much
worse than seven years' transportation. He to a certain
extent agreed with what had fallen from the Noble Lord,
for he had supported the alteration of the clause to the
form in which it now stood. He also concurred in the
observations of the Noble and Learned Lord (Denman),
in regard to the introduction of his Bill, and would be
happy to see what he wanted done in the present session.
Lord STRADBROKE made a few observations, which
were perfectly inaudible.
Lord CAMPBELL would support the Bill of the
Noble and Learned Lord (Lord Denman). Its object
was to prevent the intimidation of juries and witneises;
and any person who was guilty of such an offence, in his
(L6rd Campell's) opinion, deserved transportation. It
was a Bill that ought to be made a permanent law, and
applied to every part of the United Kingdom. He re-
joiced that he had the concurrence of the high authority
of his Lordsh:p in the objections he (Lord Campbell)
bad made to the Government Bill. He had also to com• ,
plain that important amendments, which had been agreed
to on Friday night last, on two clauses, and that one
especially where "suspicious circumstances" had been
agreed to be inserted, were not to be found in the Bill
as it now appeared. In neither the one clause nor the
other did these amendments appear. The 21st clause
also had been amended, but the alteration had not been
made.

Earl ST. GERMANS intimated that it was an
omission in one case, and that the other clause had been
postponed.
Lord CAMPBELL was happy to know that there
was a mistake, as ho felt much annoyed that the Bill did
not appear with the amendments which had been agreed
to. He hoped that the suggestions made by the
Noble Earl who had just sat down, would be attended to.
These suggestions entirely agreed with those which ho
(Lord Campbell) had made when the Bill was under dis-
cussion a few days ago. What he most anxiously wished
for was au amendment in reference to the change of
venue. No doubt it would be very desirable that in cer-
tain cases the venue should be changed, but then it
would be only fair that the prisoner should have the ad-
vantage of being able to avail himself of this privilege as
well as the prosecutor ; and it would also be very de-
sirable that the power of changing the venue should be
vested in the Court of Queen's Bench, before which
good cause should be shown before the change was
made.
The LORD
CHANCELLOR said it was quite
apparent that the Noble
and Learned
had just sat down,
theavas not in the House upon
Lord who
the occasion of
had Irma of the amend-
ment to which he
or ho would not
have addressed the obszrvatien
Lord
iflahad fallen
from him to the House. He (the
en-
tirely concurred in the necessity for thislic;iil7 andr)
therefore he would give it his m )st hearty support:
begged to remind his Noble and Learned Friend that a
similar Bill, introduced by him three years ago, had a
clause in it condemning a person convicted of being out
at night to three years imprisonment, and he was to be
tried, not by the ordinary courts of law, but by a court
martial.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord talked of the
limits of discretion, and he said that they might impose
an imprisonment of three or four years for lighter
offences ; that they should limit the punishment in all
grave cases to seven years transportation. Now he ccm-
ceived that the law in this country was carried out with
leniency and great discretion ; and he thought that it
might be safely left to the ordinary functions of the law
to understand with what severity they should visit the
offenders who might be brought before them, whether
for the simple o:fetwe of being out at night, or whether

it should be established to their satisfaction that the
parties have been guilty of a more heinous crime—for ,
instance, individuals that had been brought before them
might have surrounded the house for the ostensible pur-
pose of demanding arms, but for the ultimate intention
of murdering or ill-treating. lie would readily admit
with the Noble Earl, that the simple offence of being
out at night in a proclaimed district would be sufficiently
punished with two or three years' imprisonment ; but
as these offences were to be tried by judges of the ordi-
nary tribunals of the country, who had always admi-
nistered the law with great lenity and kindness, he
thought that cages subject to the charge of aggravation
might be safely left to their own discretion.
Earl St. GERMANS thought that the case was
materially affected by the peculiar circumstances of
it, as for instance, a number of individuals might be
out, not armed, with what are called weapons, but in-
struments of husbandry, that he thought would meet
the objections of the Noble Duke on the cross benches,
whose observations would always be entitled to the
utmost consideration and received with the utmost re-

spect. But ho believed that the remarks had been fully
answered ; and he, therefore, proposed to bring up the
reports as soon as possible; not to-morrow, but Thurs-
day, or Friday at the latest.
The Duke of RICHMOND said, he gave an unwill-
ing support to the Bill ; but he did not like to see the
postponement of it, for the purpose of making it more
palatable to the House, and he hoped the measure would
not be made more stringent than was absolutely neces-
sary to meet the state of Ireland.
Earl St. GERMANS quite agreed with the Noble
Duke, that the provisions of the Bill should not be
more stringent than the state of crime in Ireland de-
manded ; and he was as anxious as any one to make it
meet the present exigencies, without, if possible, in-
fringing the liberty of the subject.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that if the Bill
was necessary, no time should be lost in carrying it
through the House. and if unnecessary, he thought the
Government should not have brought it forward; and if
so he would very much regret the vote he gave the
other evening, which vote he gave because he felt that
the whole of the arguments brought forward were fully
sustained on that occasion—otherwise the measure
should not have received the sanction of his vote. He
gave his vote for the protection of that party who
seemed to be left out of consideration altogether —the
innocent people who were oppressed, and .chose liberties
and whose lives were safe neither night nor day in those
disturbed districts of Ireland, where crime was so
common and so difficult to put down. He could
prove, from evidence he received that day—
he did not like to name names, for it was
very well known it was not safe to do so—and their
Lordships he was sure would not require him to do so
that in a considerable town in Ireland there were per-
sons employed in the bank, who were obliged to take
exercise at an early hour, because they were afraid to
remain in the town after nightfall. With such a state
of things no other measure ought to interfere, and he
thought the Government were bound to prosecute the
present Bill, and let no measure in the other House
interfere with such a Bill as the one before their Lord-
ships. He regretted it should be found necessary (if it
was necessary) to proceed with such a measure, but the
Government were responsible for the protection of the
property and lives of her Majesty's subjects in Ireland,
and were bound to act in the best way to meet that
responsibility. If they said the measure was necessary
he would support them, but if not, then he would vote
with pleasure against the passing of such a law as
that which they proposed. He always thought it
much more dangerous to see Government straining the
mlinary law, than to pass a measure of a stringent na-
ture fur temporary purposes, especially when it was for
the purpose of protecting the British subject. With
respect to the Bill under consideration, he must say it
was a very stringent measure, although recommended
by his Noble Friend (Denman). If their Lordships
looked at some of the clauses they would see that any
person offering a bribe was liable to be transported, but
still, as they had the authority of the highest, as well as
the lowest, for saying, that life and property was inse-
cure in Ireland, l is could not vote against it, and he
thought there should not have been such a bother made
about its passing into a law. They had the authority of
the Repeal Association, who were, he believed, more ac-
tive than her Majesty's Government in putting down
crime in Ireland, for they actually sent down a gentle-
man, who was called,he believed, the " Head Pacificator"
(from having been very successful on former occasions
in tranquillising the people), for the purpose of stopping
the outrages so frequently committed, and he returned
from his mission and acknowledged that he had sig-
nally failed. If such authority was seen to fail
in Ireland, he thought their Lordships need not be
afraid to grant her Majesty's Government the power
which they demanded, for the purpose of suppressing
the crimes and outrages which unhappily prevailed at
present to a considerable extent in Ireland.
The Earl of WICKLOW said he was exceedingly
sorry his Noble Friend withdrew for that night the
further consideration of the Bill, on the ground that
there was business of greater importance before the
other House of Parliament, and of so imperative a
nature as to supersede all other measures for the
present ; and he (the Earl of Wicklow) quite agreed
with his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Clanricarde)
that if the measure was not of immediate necessity it
ought not to pass at all, but should be postponed to some
future occasion. His Noble Friend said he should post-
pone the further consideration of the Bill until Thurs-
day, and he hoped that in the interim he would turn his
mind to the amendment which was proposed respecting
persons found out after sunset. The magistrates
at petty sessions are to meet only once a-week,
and a person might be arrested and kept in prison for six
days and seven nights, although perfectly innocent.
In every previous Bill persons were immediately brought
before a magistrate, but it was stated that a single ma-
gistrate would not like to take a responsibility on him-
self, and that he would not be safe in doing so ; now it
was very well known that the people were never disposed
to visit magistrates with punishment for simply the per-
formance of their duty. He believed a case of the kind
never occured, and he believed no magistrate would suf-
fer from such an apprehension. If there was any great
ground for entertaining such a belief, he would call the
attention of his Noble Friend to the amendment for

the change of venue, as one of great importance, for if
magistrates were in danger for doing their duty, how
much more dangerous would be the position of jurors
and witnesses. He believed that it was imperative that
the petty sessions should sit more frequently, in order to
meet the objections which he had made, but how were
they to make unpaid magistrates attend for the per-
formance of judicial duty. It may be said that stipen-
diary magistrates could attend, but there was no pro •
vision in the Bill to that effect, and they had not a
power to do it. The people he apprehended might be
kept for a week, and during that period there might be
no petty sessions, but their Lordships would have an
opportunity of discussing the measure when it came
before them.
Lord MONTEAGLE said it was a just and legiti-
mate thing for his Noble Friend to throw out the sug-
gestions which they had heard, but great inconvenience
might arise by giving the power to a single magistrate ;
and yet if they did not, how could the magistrate decide
on the cases brought before him ? By bringing a man
who was innocent immediately before a neighbouring
magistrate, and taking bail for him, the party accused
might easily perhaps prove his innocence at the petty
sessions, and give an explanation which would be quite
sufficient without keeping him in prison.
The LORD CHANCELLOR wished to know whe-
ther the Noble Lord would mike it imperative on the
magistrate to bail the party accused ?
Lord MONTEAGLE said that he would not make
it incumbent on the magistrate to take bail.
Earl ST. GERMANS said that they would have
time to examine the amendments, and should be
able to present them for consideration on o-morrow
evening.
Lord BROUGHAM said that it appeared to him, as
the Bill then stood, that a person might be sent to Botany
Bay for taking a stone out of a wall or a stake out of a
hedge, provided he had been before prosecuted.
Lord DENMAN said that in committee the Bill would
require a great deal of consideration, and as it would
go before a Committee, then they would be at liberty to
modify it. The Government were bound to put down
intimidation, which was at present practised to prevent
jurors and witnesses from doing their duty, and he
thought there was not the slightest analogy between the
two cases—that of the necessity of changing the venue
and protecting witnesses from intimidation. He did not
wish it to be said, because he had introduced some
amendments of the Bill that, he was, therefore, an advo-
cate for unlimited privileges.
Lord BROUGHAM said he had no doubt but his
Noble Friend would alter his Bill, although it was a
dangerous thing to prophecy—(A laugh)—at the same
time he did not object to the measure.
The House then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 9.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at a few minutes before
Four o'clock.

SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills were read a second time and
ordered to be committed, viz. :
Dundee New Gas
Dover and Deal Railway
Upwell-cum-Welney Rectory
Northumberland Docks
Conglcton and Crewe Railway
Great Grimsby and Sheffield Junction Railway Ex-
temism (No. 2)
Glaig,ow, Barrhead, and Neilston Direct Railway
(Branches to Thornliebank, Ilousehill, and liarlet)
Ely and Bury Railway
Southport Improvement
Dundee Gas Amendment
Colchester Navigation and Improvement
,Bury Gas
Bury Waterworks
Monmouthshire Railways
Rugby and Huntingdon Railway
Derby and Crewe Junction Railway
Woodstock Roads
Chichester, Portsmouth, and Rireham Railway (by
order)
London and Birmingham Railway and Birmingham Canal
Arrangements (by order)
Eastern Union Railway—Ardleigh to'. Colchester (by
order)
Gravesend and Rochester Railway
Great Western Railway
HußdldielwrsafiyesldAamaaldgSamheaffitioneld, and Manchester and Leeds
Liverpool and Bury, and Manchester and Leeds Rail-
ways Amalgamation
Mitcham and South-Western Railway (by order)
General EVANS presented a petition, signed by 170
shareholders, praying that the Great North and South
WO ks Railway Bill might not pass into a law.
NEW WRIT.

Dlr. YOUNG moved fora nelvwrit for the borough

of Windsor, in the room of Ralph Neville, Esq., who
has accepted the office of one of the Lords of the

Treasury
Mr. ENTWISLE presented a petition, signed by
the Mayor, 10 alderman, and 199 of the princip4l in-
habitants of Manchester, in favour of the West Riding
Union Railway Bill, and praying that the standing
orders might be dispensed with.
Several other lion. Members also presented petitions
to the same effect.
THE GOVERNMENT MEASURES.

Mr. 0. DUNCONIBE presented a petition from the
North Riding of Yorkshire against the measures proposed
by the Ministry.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition from
the county of Clare praying for the establishment of a
loan office in that county.
FREE TRADE.

Mr. BRIGHT presented several petitions in suppor
of free trade.
PUBLIC FUNDS FOR HORSE-RACING.

Dr. I3OWRING presented a petition from a place in
the north of Engla►►d, the name of which we did not
catch, against the granting of any public funds for the
encouraxement of horse-racing. Al3o a petition against
the West Ridirg Union Railway sill.
Sir J. TYRLELL presented a petition from Cs;gshill
against calling out the militia.
THE POST-OFFICE.

Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMBE presented a petition
from the proprietor of the Sentinel newsp4per (as we
understood) complaining that when any inquiry was
entered into by that House with respect to the Post-
office, the Post -office authorities withheld information.
He also complained of a publication called the
Post office Directory, by which he said the
public were injured. Mr. Kelly, the proprietor of that
publication, hal stated that the
.profits of the work
amounted to 1,2561. per annum, whereas the petitioner
was prepared to prove that they amounted to 10,0001.
per annum. He, therefore. prayed for inquiry.
MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND.

Mr. HUME presented a petition from a meeting pre-
sided over by Sir E. Codrington, praying for an inquiry
into the state of the Merchant Seamen's Fund, with a
view of founding some substantial and proper establish-
ment, which would include all merchant seamen, and ap-
plying the funds, which were now disposed of in five or
six different ways, to their proper purposes.
THE WA OF SATTARA.
The HoN. MEMBER also presented a petition from an
Association in Dublin, praying for an inquiry into the cir-
cumstances which had led to the deposition of the Raja,
with the view of removing the injustice which seemed
to have been exercised in his case.
STEAM COMMUNICATION WITH AUSTRALIA.
Dr. BOWRING begged to put the question of which
he had given notice, namely, whether any measure had
been taken in order to give to the colony of Australia
the advantage of steam navigation ?
Mr. CAItDWELL said the subject was a most im-
portant one, and the attention of Government had been
directed to it, but he was not than in a position to inform
the Hon. and Learned Member that Government had
determined on any fixed plan, with regard to the afford-
ing steam communication to Australia.
FAMINE IN IRELAND.

Mr. O'CONNELL hoped the House would allow him
to correct a mistake into which some of the news-
papers had fallen respecting the statement which he
made on Friday evening concerning the failure of the
potato crop in various parts of Ireland. On that even
ing he produced a letter from the Rev. Mr. Doggett
(as we understood), which set forth that the potato crop
had failed in many parts of Ireland. He (Mr. O'Connell)
also stated that he had received a communication from
Queen's County, with respect to which he was reported
to have said " that he regretted the absence of the lion.
Member for that County (Sir Charles Coote), than
whom a better landlord did not exist, because
he would hare been able to corroborate the
information which he had received, that his
tenants had lost half of their crop." lie stated this
much because nothing could be more correct. He was
then reported to have said that "whole families werecom-
pelled to subsist c n charity, for it was well known
that an Irishman would share his laet potato wit's his
unfortunate neighbours." He did made such a state-
ment but, it applied to other parts of Ireland. The
Right Hon. Baronet to whom he referred took care that
his tenants were not dependent upon charity for their
existence.—(ilear, hear.)
[The mistake arose from the low tone of voice in
which the Hon. and Learned Member spoke on the
evening in question. J
Sir CHARLES COOTE thanked the Hon. Member
for the correction.
OFFICERS IN THE DUBLIN LAW COURTS.
Mr. HUME moved for a return of the names and
salaries of all persons holding offices in the law courts
in Dublin, and of the names and salaries of those, if
any, who discharged their duties by proxy.—Agreed to.
EXPORTATION QF SALT.
An Boat. MEMBER moved for a return of the quantity
of British salt exported during the past year, with the
ports from which the vessels sailed, which was agreed to.
THE COMM ERCIAL POLICY OF THE COUNTRY.
Sir R. PEEL gave notice of his intention to-morrow
evening to move for the production of various returns
illustrative of the commercial policy of this country with
Belgium, and of the effect of the reduction of the duty
on flax ; also for various returns connected with the
importation of British and foreign segars.
MERCHANT SEAMEN'S BILL.

Sir C. NAPIER wished to ask the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade
when he proposed to bring in the Merchant Seamen's
Bill ?
Sir G. CLERK was unable to give any definite or
positive answer to the question of the Honourable and
Gallant Member.
DISTRESS IN IRELAND.

Mr. O'CONNELL rose to put a question to the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite with respect to the state of
the potato crop in Ireland and the consequent distress
it had entailed upon the people of that country. Be-
fore, however, he put the question ho wished to say a
few words upon the s Abject, and to assure the Right
Honourable Baronet that the accounts he had received
from Ireland were really frightful In the county which
he represented the distress was very extensive, and
he had accounts from men of experience detailing
the rapid progress and increase in the potato decay.
He wished to impress on the Government the fact that
this failure of the potato crop would have a fatal effect
on the people of Ireland ; and also that the sums of
money already voted by Parliament would not suffice to
give relief tee the people of Ireland. He begged to be
understood that he was not sueing, in forma pauperig,
for money from this country ; he concluded by asking
the Right Hon. Baronet whether he was prepared to lay
upon the table of the House a statement of further mea-
sures intended to be taken, in order to obviate the im
pending famine in Ireland ?
Sir R. PEEL was sorry that the statement read by
the Hon. Member did not at all vary from the impres-
sion which had been made upon his mind with
reference to the probable pressure that would be
felt at a later period of the season, and the inability
of the inhabitants to provide themselves with other arti-
tidies of subsistence. He had reason to believe from the
accounts recently receive-I, as well as from those which
had been received in the months of October and Novem-
ber, that these melancholy facts would follow. The
Hon. Member was aware that the first act
of the Government had been directed towards providing
subsistence for the people by the. best mean; he alluded
to employment. He considered that it would
be far more satisfactory to the feelings of
the people who were suffering under the scarcity
to enable them by payment for their labour
to pay for their food. He believed, in justice to-
wards the labouring classes, of those who were in the
greeeest destitution, that it would be more agreeable
to their feelings to give them an opportunity of earning
their subsistence by labour than trusting to charity.
The Hon. Member was aware that the first acts of' the
Government, preliminary to that measure, which will
be brought under the discussion of the House this even-
ing, was to submit to Parliament three or four measures
for the relief of Ireland. They had made advances in
those measures towards erecting piers and harbours
upon the south and west coast of Ireland, in order to
enable the inhabitants, with more security, to carry
on their fisheries.—( [fear.) They had also proposed
to give to the grand juries of Ireland the power
of raising money. The sum of 100,000/. had been
advanced out of the public funds to encourage the grand
jury to make presentments for public works. These
measures involved an advance of public money,
which he believed would facilitate the means
of giving more employment to the people than was
in general to be obtained. If, however, the measures
proposed and the sums advanced by Government should
not be sufficient for the purpose, while the Parliament
was sitting there would be no difficulty in making fresh
advances ; an even if the House should not be sitting,
sooner than the people of Ireland should be in a starving
condition, he should not hesitate to take upon himself
the responsibility of making further advances to obviate
the mischief. Nothing could be easier than obtaining
renewed and enlarged powers. The Hon. and Learned
Member, however, would agree with him, that it
was not wise to be too liberal, because after all,
the great assistance must be derived from local efforts.
With regard to the introduction of Indian corn, he
had every reason to know that it was used in
United States very generally for the purposes of
food, and it was admitted that it was a most palatable
article. The Government had provided information as
to the best mode of preserving it for use, and had adopted
every measure in their power to avert the dreaded famine
in Ireland. In the month of November last, on
their own responsibility, they ordered a very large
quantity of Indian corn, and it had since
arrived, and every facility would be afforded for supply-
ing it to those districts where it would be required to
avert the dangers likely to arise from a scarcity of food.
He hoped the Honourable Gentleman would not require
him to explain further at present, as it would not be
prudent at the present time to enter into details. It
would be most important, and he was sure it would be
fully accorded, the concurrence of the landed proprietors,
who should use their exertions to aid the Government
in the carrying out of their intentions. He did assure
the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell) that every exer
tion had been made, and every precaution taken, not
last week, or the week after, but many months ago, to
avert the threatened famine in Ireland.
In reply to a question put by Sir R. H. INGLIS,
Sir R. PEEL, who spoke with his back to the gal-
lery, and in a low tone, was understood to say that in
the event of the present Corn Bill receiving the sanction
of the Lords and Commons, the duties on corn which
shall be received in the meantime should be repaid to
the importers.
Dr. BO WRING wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Government, whether any inquiries
bad been made by the Government as to the late
potato crops in such countries as usually imported
that article of food to this country?
Sit ROBERT rzEr., said that it had been found

that there had been a great failure in the potato crop
in Italy, Spain, Belgigip, Denmark, some parts of
Prussia, Prince Edward's Island, Nova Scotia, .and
other countries. No dependence could be placed on
any importation, as the root was very likely to become
diseased upon the voyage.
Mr. M. GIBSON wished to know with reference to
the articles of maize, rice. and Indian c )rn, whether the
new duties should take effect after the passing of the
measure.
Sir R. PEEL said that as 'oon as the resolutions had
passed he proposed to issue a Trearury order, permit-
dog the importation of those articles duty free.
WINDOW TAX.

Viscount DUNCAN intimated his intention of post-
poning his motion in refm.nce to the window-tax to
Thutaday next.

CORN DUTIES.

Sir J. TYRRELL trnsted that the House would not
be of opinion that he was unnecessarily detaining Hon.
Members when he took the liberty of reading a letter
which he held in his hand. He could assure the House
that he did not wish to interpose delay to the business
of the evening, and he felt certain he would be best con-
sulting the convenience of the House by proceeding
at once to read the letter. But in the course of the
other evening the worthy Alderman, the Member for
Stoke, made a statement in the course of his speech,
which WAS cheered most loudly by a Ministerial gentle-
man. He (the Hon. Baronet) had a letter in his hand
which went to contradict that statement, and he trusted
that the importance of the statement would cause the
House to bear with him while ho read it. The
letter was from an Essex farmer, and, as
they were very often alluded to in the debate,
he felt assured that their opinion would be of
some consequence. The Hon. Baronet then read the
letter, which said that a statement had been made
by Alderman Copeland in that House to the effect that
a farm of nine hundred acres was let to an Essex farmer
at an increased rent of 2001. per annum, notwithstand-
ing the decrease which was likely to take place in the
value of land by the introduction of the Goverment mea-
sure. The Hon. Member had not, however, stated
the whole facts of the case, and he (the Essex farmer)
hoped the House would be put into possession of the
facts, as it would serve the cause of the farmers.—
(Laughter.) The statement of the worthy Alderman
had a tendency to damage the cause.--(Great laughter.)
The farm had been taken from the company to which
it belonged, at the increased rental, because they were
determined not to take less.—(Laughter, and cries of
" Hear, hear.)" The company, however, had allowed
the tenant greater privileges under the lease, and
that more than counterbalanc d the increased rental.
But, above all, a clause was inserted in the lease that
in the event of agricultural protection being withdrawn,
then the tenant might be at liberty to quit the
farm, and in the event of its operation being to
reduce the price of his produce, and should his
landlord not agree to let it him on such terms as he
might feel safe in continuing the occupation,
he might be at liberty to leave it. Now he
(Sir J. Tyrrell) regretted that the worthy Alderman
was not in his place; for although the statement
he had made was not exactly true, he must do the
Worthy Alderman the justice to say that it had been
very well invented, and it was like faces in some respects
—to give them the slightest twist was to alter their
expression. If the Hon. Member for Stockport had
been in his place, he (Sir J. Tyrrell) would have alluded
to another Essex farmer, respecting whom a statement
had been made as unfounded as that of the Worthy
Alderman.
Mr. LIDDELL said it was not his intention to give
the Right Hon. Raronet any trouble on the timber
duties.—(Cheers.) He might state that when he moved
that the petition should be printed with the votes,
it was his bona fide intention to move that the House
should express an opinion on the subject of the timber
duties. He had thought it was his duty to do so, be-
cause he knew perfectly well what was then the feeling
of the shipping interest upon this subject. But he
was bound to say since that period so many petitions had
been presented to that House in favour of the pro-
posed change, and having r ceived no petitions against
it, that he now considered the shipping interest could not
be opposed to that change. He wished to sat the Right
Hon. Baronet right as far as he (Mr. Liddell) was con-
cerned,
Sir R. PEEL—After the severe remarks which my
Hon. Friend made on me for proposing the commutation
of these duties ?—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Lord G. BENTINCE was understood to withdraw
his opposition to the propositions of the Government, on
the understanding that he should again bring them for-
ward in an advanced stage of the Bill.
Mr. MILLS said, from what-had fallen from the Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), he understood him to say
that he would take care to introduce some alteration in
the resolutions before the House, in order to limit
the importation of buck-wheat into this country.
If he had understood him rightly, this
would withdraw a vast deal of opposition on his
side of the House. By introducing a few words stating
that the importation of buck-wheat would not take place
for three months, say the Ist of July, or some
other time, the Upper House might take the
whole business of the tariff irate consideration
without any unnecessary delay; which, according to his
notion would not be the case, if the duty on that
article was proposed to be remitted on the passing of the
Bill. He hoped the Right Honourable Baronet
would adopt his suggestion because he would per-
ceive from the disposition shown by the section
of the House to which he (Mr. Mills) belonged, that it
was not their intention to offer any obstruction
to the importation of food into Ireland, for the re-
lief of the people of that country, free of all duty
and that they, therefore wished to meet a tempo-
rary evil with a temporary remission of the
protection duty on that commodity, instead of voting
away nearly all the duties on articles imported into this
country.
Sir R. PEEL—I wish to explain what my proposition
is. I propose that by law there should be a permanent
reduction of the duty upon Indian maize and corn,
and upon buck-wheat and rice ; that the duty
shall be reduced to a mere nominal amount ; and
that this shall be the permanent law of the land,
and shall take effect so soon as this Bill shall
have received the consent of the Legislature and the
Royal assent. With respect to buck-wheat and Indian
corn, I propose when the resolution respecting
these articles shall have been reported, to issue a
Treasury order, remitting the present legal amount of
duty to a nominal rate ; such Treasury order
not to have effect until the Bill shall have
passed both Houses of Parliament and re-
ceived the royal assent. First, leaving the
duty upon buck-wheat and upon maize to be
removed by a Treasury order, in order to meet this emer-
gencies of the country, instead of leaving the mat er
to a decision, by which great delay cannot fail to be
occasioned ; but I cannot consent to alter the determi-
nation, by inserting the words suggested by the Hen.
Member. I propose for the permanent law of the land
that the duty upon Indian corn or maize should be re-
duced to a nominal duty, but that the immediate opera-
tion of the measure should be merely temporary.
Mr. MILES said, from what had fallen from the Right
lion. Baronet, he gathered that the remission was not,
in fact, to be of a temporary character, and he wished,
therefore, the agriculturist to understand well what they
were about to do. They were going to take the duty
off maize or Indian corn altogether. Now, the pro-
perties of Indian corn were little understood in this
country. A bushel of maize or Indian corn was equal
to a bushel and three-quarters of barley, and to three
bushels of oats ; that was as nearly as pcssible the rela-
tive quantity of the three grains. There could be no
doubt that ma'ee or Indian corn would be used in this
country and Ireland, as largely as barley and oats were
at present. They could compete with foreigners in the
production of barley and oats, but in respect of Indian
corn they could not. Mr. Col bett, some years ago, intro-
duced into this country Indian corn, but owing
to the temperature which prevailed in this island,•
it was impossible to bring it to maturity.
Some years since he tried it in the West of England, and
after having cultivated it in the best manner he could
only succeeded in ripening it once in three years, so that
in the case of this article it was impossible for England
to compete with America. The whole of the west and
southern states of that country are adapted to the
growth of that article ; and if we look upon the quan-
tity of wheat consumed in this country as compared with
the United States, they would find that in this country
the consumption was at the rate of one quarter per head,
and in America only three-ancha-half bushels. What
was the reason of that difference ? Doubtless because
labour was better paid in this country. The Americans
also prefer bread made from Indian corn to
bread made from wheat. It appeared some-
what extraordinary on account of the mention
m tde by him of the great quantity grown
in America last year. He found that upon referring to
his authority he had mistaken in ouo instance quarters
fur bushels ; the quantity of wheat grown was 2,500,000
quarters. and of Indian corn 700,000,000 bushels, or
about 87,000,000 quarters. When, therefore, he looked
at the immense quantity grown iu that country, and also
when he considered how much more easily it was culti-
vated than any other cereal corn, and after the
great use in clearing land, he considered that they
ought to reflect before they allowed such an article
to be imported into this country. He was very
anxious indeed to have heard something respect-
ing the dressing of this Indian corn, but he was
not to be enlightened by the Government. He had him-
self received a letter from a gentleman, enclosing him a
small package of Indian corn, and he states that the
duty paid in America was only one per cent., and that
the quantity he enclosed, when a quart of water was
added to it, would be as much as four grown persons
would eat at one meal. The Americans use sugar and
sometimes molasses, and also salt in its preparation, and
for an article which was used by them ill preference to
wheat they only paid eight shillings a quarter. It made
excellent, light, good bread, with the addition of a little
Bri.ish flour. The article would not alone enter into
use for the feeding of cattle, but would also be very gess
nerally used fot human consumption, and of course
would throw out of the market a similar
quantity of wheat ; and, as he had before
said, it would have the effect of preventing the
English farmer from competing with the foreigner. It
was in vain to talk of stimulating the farmer with such
facts before him. He thought it right to make this
statement, in order to show that the introduction of
Indian corn was not a matter of slight importance to the
English farmer, whose interest would be seriously inter-
fered with. The Americans would have to pay only Is.
per quarter, but if they had even to pay a higher duty,
it would be impossible for the British farmer to enter into
competition with them. Our markets would be inundated
with that description of corn ; such immense quantities
would be introduced into the English markets that the
produce of the farmers of this country would be driven
out, and the land would, of course, become seriously de-
teriorated. He, therefore, entered his protest against
the present wea,eure, and he would sit dawn by thanking

the Right Hon. Baronet for the details into which he
had entered.
Mr. CARDWELL was sure that nobody who had
heard his Hon. Friend the Member fur Sotnersetshire
(Mr. Miles), but most teel that he was perfectly sincere
when ho declared, in the strongest and most emphatic
laeguege, that he sympathised with the sufferings of the
pal,le of that part of the United Kingdom, whose prin-
cipal food was the potato.—(Hear, hear.) Now, what
was the position of the question? His Hon. Friend had
read statements which were exceedingly exaggerated ; it
was untrue that 87,000,030 quarters of corn could be
produced in America. It was admitted that a very large
portion of the people of Ireland depend upon the potato-
crop as their only means of sustentation; now, if they
could by any proceeding of theirs produce a taste for a
higher description of food among that people, and intro-
duce habits of industry which would be culculeted to make
them able to live upon that food, they would be effecting
one of the most practical measures of reform, of any age.
feegislation would be able to assist them but !itde, but it
often happened that an affliction of Providence produced
the most beneficial effects. They should, therefore, take
consolation that there would be such a result in Ireland,
and that the famine would produce a demand for a
higher kind of food,—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
had introduced into the House some specimens of the
potteo, grown by a Mr. Chapman, which were of an
exceedingly healthy nature, though they were slips
taken from unhealthy plants. He (the Hon, Member)
had made personal inquiries; all of which confirmed the
accounts received by other Hon. Gentlemen and laid be-
fore that House ; and he therefore believed that the in-
terposition of Government at the present moment was
opportune. He also believed that, before the lapse of
many years, the potato would recede from the position
it held at present as an article of staple food, to its
ordinary level as a vegetable, which he believed would
be a great blessing to the people of Ireland.--(flea,r.)
After a few words from Mr. NE\VDEGATE, which
did not reach the gallery,
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD said, there were
more reasons than one why it was absolutely necessa, y
that more than a temporary aftlicion should be pro-
vided against. In the first place, to his knowledge,
during the last ten or twelve years, there had been
disease in the potato crop in various forms. In the year
before the last, the disease appeared in the corn ; but as
regarded the potato crop, he had (very reas( a to fear
that it wou:d not be removed speedily.—(!fear, hear.)
From these and other reasons, he was inclined to think
that, if possible, other measures should to ad, p ed for
the benefit of the people of that country. He thought
that the greatest blessing to Ireland would b, to lead the
people of that country not to depend at.ne upon the
potato for food. It would, indeed, be a great blessing
to Ireland if they could get cheap food.—
(Hear.) The people of this country wondered
how those in Ireland lived at all. To entede the Irish
people to live they must be famished with plenty of
employment. lie should be glad to find the one shit
ling duty taken off the Indian corn.—(Hear, hear.)
Let the House imagine how a man and his wife and
five children were to provide food, when for that fsmi!y
it required five bushels of potatoes at three pet ce
stone.

Mr. HUME hoped that Indian corn would b brought
into competition with wheat, as it would elatle tf- e
people to obtain good and wholesome food, when what
could not be obtained. He, therefore, hoped that the
shilling duty even would be abolished.
Wow I SIBTIIORP wished to know if he had under-
stood the Hon. Member for Rochdale rightly, in saying
that the wages of the Irish labourer were as low as
2s. 4d. per week It that were the case, all he could say
was, the Lord have mercy upon them. He had no
hesitation in saying that they were an excellent people.
He knc w a good deal about them. He had been exposed
in I-eland, and yet he had never witnessed in the lower
orders of the Irish anything but kindheartedness and
civility. He did not wonder at their being discontented,
if their wages were only 2s. 41 per week. He was
convinced more than ever that the proposed measure
was mere trash, and utterly worthless.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD observed that for
his part he would very gladly see the duty of ,one shil-
ling per quarter removed.
The Earl of MARCH said that the lion. Member
had stated that considerable disease existed in the pota-
to crop of Scotland, and that there was every proba-
bility of the disease becoming as extensive as it was in
the United States. He (Lord March) felt bound to say
that he had received letters only that morning from
persons residing in Morayshire and Ayrshire, which
stated that the disease did not exist in those counties,
and that there was every prospect of a good and plen-
tiful crop.
Sir ARTHUR BROOKE observed that the general
rate of wages in the north of Ireland averaged from 101
t ) Is. and sometimes to la. Bd. per day. A considerable
number of the landed proprietors, with incomes from
8,0001. to 9,0001. a-year, furnished employment to 100
or 150 labourers throughout the year. If the same
:mount of wages was paid in Ireland as in England,
half the labourers would be thrown cut of employ
during a portion of the year. He was bound to thank
her Majesty's Ministers, and others, for the great anxiety
which they had manifested to guard against the
threatened famine in Ireland ; but, at the same time, lie
thought that unless measures were taken to introduce
constant employment among the labouring classes,
they would not be much benefited by the bringing in
of cheap food. He (Sir A. Brooke) had seen, during
several years, the usual food of the Irish people sold as
low as 10s. per quarter, during which period never had
there been known so much starvation and di:tress in the
country. And why ? Because the farmers, who held
small farms, averaging from 20 to 30 acres, finding that
the price of their produce was reduced in the market,
were compelled to diminish the number of their la-
bourers. He did hope that her Majesty's Governmen!
would take into consideration the means of devising a
plan by which constant employment might be secured
to the labourer. As to railroads, he considered that they
would be productive of great misfortunes, and more evil-
to Ireland than any other evil which he could conceive.
The present condition of Ireland was not adapted ti
maintain the number of railroads that were intended ti
be constructed and carried on. The traffic in the coup
try was comparatively small. The duty of furnishing
employment to the labourer rested first of all with th-
landed proprietors of Ireland. They should put thei,
shoulders to the wheel aid use their most energetic
endeavours to supply food and employment fur
the wretched and unfortunate people. The resident
landlords would be willing, he was sure, when the ext
gency should arrive, to provide for the poor on their own
estates. The landlords were dividable into three classes.
There were the absentees, the middlemen, and, lastly, th
squireen. If the Government want to sea Ireland pros
perous and happy, they must deal first of all with these
three classes. The only way in which he could sugge-
that these three classes should be dealt with, was t.
place them in the power of the poor-law guardians, who,
when cases of distress and famine happened in their dis-
tricts, should possess authority to levy extra poor rates.
to be paid by the landlords, the absentees, and middle-
men. When he made use of the term absentees, he dici
not wish to include all who did not reside on their
estates. There were several noble exceptions, in such
men as the Earl Fitzwiliiarn, the Duke of Devonshire,
and others, who. although not living in Ireland, mani-
fested the greatest care to see that the comforts of their
tenants were properly attended to. lle(Sir A. Brooke)
however, knew of some proprietors who had never seen
their tenants, and who had not visited their estates for a
period of 30 years, and the consequence was, that the
resident landlord was obliged to provide for the people
in times of difficulty and distress. Without employ-
m not, it was his firm conviction that it would be useless
to introduce cheap food into the country.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE thought that the poor of
Ireland should have the right of relief from the district
to which they were attached. It had been mentioned
that there was at present an abundance of food in Ireland.
but it shou7d be borne in mind, that that food we;
rapidly being carried out of the country. It would be
very desirable that an additional supply should be ob-
tained from America ; he considered, however, that the
resources of Ireland should be allowed to be fully de
veloped and exhausted before they applied to the gene-
rosity of England, or had recourse to the superabund-
ance of America. lie trusted that the wants of the
people of Ireland should be supplied from the resources
of the district where the distress should exist, and he
hoped that her Majesty's Government would keep that
consideration in mind in dealing with the question. He
thought that the bounty of England might be repaid in
some shape by the levying of district taxes.
Mr. ESCO r I' thought it was extremely desirable that
the price of food should be reduced to so low an amount
as was possible. They had heard that wages were so
small that it was impossible for the hest-disposed land-
lord to pay his labourers more than five shillings a
week—this was additional reason why the price of food
should be reduced. Some inquiries had been made at an
early period of the evening for information respecting
the Indian corn, which it had been proposed to bring in.
Her Majesty's Government had introduced a measure to
let in this Indian corn, of which there was a large supply.
The lion. Member for Somersetshire had supplied him
( Mr. Escott) with all necessary statements as to the Indian
corn. He had proved that it start an excellent article of
food. The only difference between them was that the
Hon. Member thought that Indian corn, being an excel-
lent article of food, ought to be kept out of the country,
while be (Mr. Escott) was of opinion that Indian
corn, being an excellent article of food, ought
to be let into the country.—(Hear, and cheers.)
A circumstance had occurred some time back, the par-
ticulars of which came under his own personal know-
ledge, and which he would state to the House. A large
quantity of Indian corn had been brought into port in
this country, but owing to the severity of the duty, it
was prevented from being landed. The consequence
was that the whole of the corn was transhipped, taken
to Hollandeand used in feeding Duch cattle instead of
our own. He would ask, what is the state of the agri-
cultural labourer at this moment with respect to the only
supply of animal food, which he ever, by any chance
partakes of, viz., bacon and pork ? Why, in nine cases
out of ten, where the agricultural labourer Is respectable
enough to keep a pig, one half of it is pawned before
the pig is killed, in order to supply the labourer and his
family with ceramon necessaries. Now, what a blessing
it would be if every agricultural labourer could keep for
himself a fat pig, or even two. He (Mr. Escott) knew of
nothing that would tend more to exalt the condition of
the lebouring poor than a plentiful supply of food. He
believed that the extension of trade and commerce would

raise the market for agricultural produce to an extent
that would amply repay any imaginary reduction in the
price of grain. What was it that had, during the pre-
sent year, given an impulse to agriculture, and partially
raised the condition of the agricultural labourer ? It
could be ascribed to no other cause than the increase of
employment, which had taken place in consequence of
the small relaxation in productive duties, which had
taken place a few years ago. It was this relaxation
which had given a degree of prosperity to the agricul-
tural interest which it had never previously experienced. ,
Mr. 114111IIS WM of opinion that the GovenigeDt

should take some measures to prevent the exportatide,ne
of potatoes for such a period as might seem proper. ,
was aware of some experiments which bad been ink
by a gardener, the result of which was that the young;
f
potatoes produced from good seed gave indications of
the rot. With respect to the famine in Ireland, the sitin,
doubt seemed to prevail on the other side of the lioneet
as to its extent. tie had no hesitation in affirming the,.
it was as great as the Hon. Baronet had pictured to lew
House, and be therefore gave the Government greet
credit for their introduction of there measures.
tee
Mr. P. HOWARD considered that the Legisis""
,
should be much indebted to the Member for Wintus'e;
ter, for having directed attention t ) the advsnter"
which would be conferred upon the population of toil°
country by the introduction of Indian corn. He leo
that Father Mathew had also aroved of it as an to.
de of food for the people of Ireland. It was very °Tee
sively used in Italy, and especially in TUSCSDY. 0,
peasantry of which were the best fed and most °to,
fortably olothed in Europe, as to the palatable liter
of the food, very much would depend upon the Oaf&
or ts preparation for ore ;it would require and
bolus leaveee Indian corn next to wheat:, .Ed
he begged to differ with the First Lord 010.
Treasury, who termed cats as a nobler kind of gqciea
Mr. FIT; GERALD begged to state that the de
...0
payment of the labourer in Ireland did not arise fr°,ll.ooo
twhaenrt.notnf
ogeoroodfwpoiollp?enotuhteopraertntplfo'ytimieenita.ndHlorede,e3bnus!,looo.o:t
that railways in Ireland would be of vast an, ie felt
permanent advantage in removing this evi]; an" 001 fat
no doubt that the country would be most grate,
side,
any benefits bestowed up •n them. He did not eVeeing
that it wool I be fair that %le whole burden of re 'isod'
the poor of their districts should be cast upon the
stet
lords of the ah'entee estates—as it bad been euggegeef
by an Hon. Member—bat be did consider thatod to
ought to be merle to pay their just proP'l.ll°l/' arose°
felt that this visitation of Providence would be the
of restoring the Irish people to their proper
Mr. P. S. BUTLER said that there were verifoo
laboerers in the south of Ireland who got less than little
ss. to 6s. per week, and in the summer time :ed bis
more. Whenever, however. the labourer otPen whose
means he fell into the hands of country usurers, tootsge
terms he was obliged to accede. One great 0,18,00
which vt oald at i,-e from the present reduction in t`,l_et; 00
of grain w• ‘lll I be that the labourer would be taken
of the hands of those extortioners. Under these clod 0
stances he never had :'seater pleasure than be
supporting the Right Hon. Baronet's measure. . Of
Mr. J. A. REID hoped the House would baringketo,
measure to a close as speedily as possible. "'leaden,
that ere long Hen. Members who had hitherto °!"' bi;
the alerati, n would see that th"ir oppoition °eel,'"
been unnt ce,sary. and would find that the gren.
positie feo
vantages would he eenferie d by it on t',e countrPrefe
Mr. LABOUCHERE was of opinion that withiroissi
to the introduction of Indian corn into &ie.
it would afford considerable assistance to the P oo tbe
that country, living as they were at pr senteiepbf:
potato. It would greatly raise and improve thfios 0'
:deal condition. If they could obtain a better bt 0,14
cheaper rate then they now had, he bad no tdini/eotbefff
would adopt it. The use of Indian corn w0111°: "00,1,0
the effect of throwing wheat out of use, for in :0110'
the United States which he had visited such a 7141
not .ollow. With respec to the importation
...0° 00 d
corn by the Government for the use of the rdeetdr
Ireland, he thought it should be carried into
-o.oo'
soon as possible. Had Government purchased c°o in
time ago, they would not now be put to such ell, hoc
procuring a supply of Indian corn. He treats' GI;
ever, that an impression would not go abroad of int.
vernment might be always looked up to in caseueld,iolll
emergency ; for Burke, with whom he agreed of eP:el
" Thotiehts en Scarcitv,” pointed out the evil Adult
03'0
dependence. He hoped that no unnecessary oe'eee sell.
take place in passing these resolutions, and „bOO 0100
hold himnelf inexcusable for detaining the 0°"; of Tie
subject, believing, as he did, that a prolonga" to tie
agitation would cause the greatest iikiuri e 00
monetary, manufacturing and agricultural clll 0306 0
was very glad to see that the Government id opr
the bold course they had done, and he w°ll'
them in carrying it out.
eorti'
After a few words from Mr. FINCH., i pole
Lord G. BENTINCK gave a detail of severswdy,'
iso
ments which had been made by Mr. Reese, of..rbliell4e
and others, upon decayed potatoes, one od,f uw..g ore;
very successful in producing vegetation. 1"-e,lt Ole
ment was made with magnesia mixed with (111,„1-00
amd he mentioned the circumstance that i 6 '-
generally known throughout the country. rseji
The resolutions were then agreed to, the ter it
ordered to be brought up, and Bills founded 11P
troduced.
The House then went into Committee upon the A
CUSTOMS (TARIFF). e 1(1 °if el
Sir R. PEEL, in answer to Lord G. Bents be',
that with respect to brandy and silk, it would
le
eil.,
11!
•
to have the discussion on the resolutions.
Lord G. BENTINCK said, that a great ge§ll;
tlemen were then out of town, who were reel
.11
port the amendments. . 0 obey
Mr. MILES thought it better the discuSele r
ee
take place on the report. ere beioi
Sir R. PEEL thought it would be found Inger
ficial to take the discussion on that evening', ell 01
a few of the main articles till Monday nextaeg it °of
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was of opinion tuogsoe"o
be more advisable for the debate to take plan; be 011
possible, and that it would be better it should
00
vote of supply. taltepit)
, Sir R. PEEL—The discussion could v-,4 ertajoo
that night, as far as the supply was concerned'
regard to other articles the discussion could -
en Friday next.
eat ofills
01.0
Mr. AGLIONBY feared that the arrangeungioo,l)
Hon. Member would interfere with the,rnio'
Noble Friend of his, who bad a motion for x'' ,r
-eceect to the invention by Capt. Werner. is there
Sir R. PEEL could see no inconvenience a oto
rangemeut. He had effered his Noble Dieerjo he
Ince all the correspondence that had taken PLII" Or
)apt. Warner and himself, and therefore 0° 00
.ould take place on the subjeet. 0 11°01,
Mr. EWART said he had to move the - teig fO, 0
"reign ho, ks should cease. He thought throe 0410
•lee!ical books ought to he admitted at the set, 00
aegn paper, nam,ly, 14s, the hundred weloisoo
duty hefor. 1821 was 4L the hundred weigh (0110
low on some b ioks reduced to 21. 10e., an; in the thli,
mounted to 51. There were b o'ss printed '-g hi OP
Tang 'age. which ought not to be kept o'oooelo,oo
duty. This was a great commercial grin :5 11,404
early booksellers complained of it tie. yke
...°
amounting to a prohibit on of such wt. Peel" 0'
rom that, he (Mr. Ewart) viewed tule-retna`l
mailing a great commercial evil. He was s" fri`-dtie
1 tbe
people of this country were pleased at , weer:all
communication a hich at -resent existed utosecd,eo
and foreign countries, and it ought not to be ' ffeleo
duty upon the literature of the Continent. 0000
few days ago the works of Sch'ller sold fortsy oula
boooj
shillings, which, had there been no dutY,, boel
000 P
been purchased for seventeen shillings. 'oe gad, ceette°
or;nted in Germany were much cheaper ,ban tbe` V
be produced in this country, and such of tile—Deice:de
to England would be charged an immense 'lO6-0'
eas now speaking of books in the Gertnan 1/014,0c0
Books there of the classics, Greek and Latitl'oll ' 0
exceedingly cheap ; for instance Euripides, tojelve
works as that, were sold to the es. etlf.
2s. 3d. in Germany, and retailed at cove', 0
he should like to know why Oxford and hts °Abet
should not enjoy the same advantages in t etbn'ote
the German Colleges. There could be no dontooregbe
Derdrof's German Edition of the Greek Grnbat fu'os:
the very best that could be used at schools.'4ed et glile
use of the country, it was obliged to be rePr-ferig!ficri:
ford. On those grounds he would contend his col'ioP
the duty upon foreign books, imported into t 03 et ;ooli
was enormous and disproportionod, and be Wogton et hie
to know why it should be so, or why bie Ipaensil.aeir*
be opposed. He would now conclude by ccdidg, nal;
proposition into these few and simple W°roge, tacit
,
that foreign books, printed in a foreign la°§oglllll OP,
a foreign country, should be admitted into ,stitioo , •
free, because they could not come into coraP' Into
English books, nor would English books 011ie Ite
petition with them. old 141e01'
Sir GEORGE CLERK said, that there Coo. re'
doubt but that it would be desirable that WI; 00;0
bees motion should be carried. The wall° 00 f° ;0
ceived by Government in the shape of due,J and ll.'
tae'
books did not amount to more than 10,0001 t Bo Oto it,
sum was so trifling it could scarcely be fedeait Opter
while at the same time he was ready to ,00 1000
would be very desirable that the country ellgeies 're;
change its literature with that of other On la ! seo
ebon eon
liberal terms. But at the same time it -„okse,r,eoCe'
membered that it would be only fair that "-e in ...0-0 in
in this country should be guarded from Pirse,fretectleod 0
and that French works should have a liket iiheqierb 00(
this country. The Right Hon. Baron seet I°f
clause (fee •
clause from the 7th and Bth Victoria, caP• A the e r 0 In
called the International Copyright Act, 11.11.7, outb% 00
which was to protect the works of Ene.l7ben eveneigion.
the manner he had above described. 11,e,„ (113 per'
to
to say, that at present the amount of duty upon oe.
l
was not more than equal to the excise dlltywhieh iot.o
There was now pending an arrangenientleueYadlniWfoure he
published in Prussia and France would
and there
press
big
this country upon very liberal terms, to pre
would suggest to the Hon. Member, not,„.t.
a. gee
motion until the arrangement came into ecn';;;o wha,'ooee
Mr. FORSTER said he could not cor! !`„resen_lbeerr
question of copyright had to do with tnevetr, od 10 0
There was no German press in the count_.7. saglee_.o‘e
fore he could not conceive why the Ge!lnleihueir laOr
England should be deprived of books la 1, e ell
t a' at
by keeping up the hieh price.
could 110 a
Mr. CHARLES BULLER said he si coPi 00
It was quite fair that as the French t-s°,`__o2 pica:/the
conceive why wmhixyedthitep question of oofneinntoe„.(rnb:et_floo_rneerntrobeeol4..toriti
hibited the works of English authors anger 4l,
France, that England should protect i 101 ,„$ beseued.
works of French authors in this countraasefe"of tla I_`.4
ceived that had nothing to do with the quf. twciaolvery To
mission of foreign books printed in a forpey free' io
should
osrseyi gn
that
the
o n
foraedingtteb°°d
okso:ce°ol3ldelistilill
thus the poorer classes of foreigners
stintlidosuacountry was an exceedingly
eu their on .
heareVYSidee il I.4lsttidiel.
were deprived of the means of carrying
rioted
.16.00 e
mense number of books; which it wouldat a WI
Many of the small states of GermanYpbo yerfrougo of
the
able to have admitted into this country
duty. ot see, he
Mr. DISRAELI said, he could 11 _awe to
Ur re" he
ing the discussion. He would like
so
.e_._ 0
.en,.
question of copyright should have
tbeeknnno: wbetberutie;
tax derived from this source was dttYhe suepoistor
and if an inquiry were to be made into
the Government in continuing it?ehliarged upon Y';',46.ther
the fact that a similar duty w_
Gaesrmany ; but h° op P'
books going to France and
_ed. )3as
would ask was it thought that the_reeswualtswnooutlo_,v;/,_o_ei
olio
thought there was AQ each dtitY Illniv

xportatioa
roper. lie
been !
the yowl
ice dons o
I, the goo
the iio
rrning tho
fired to the
nent gI

rel
v' (Dl,'
Pviec 011
wbicb g
Th t esro6;
11
qualcl, „ht
is 031
or,
, 0,0
I
e orerp is

1138
vhfi.t
°
'Ol3
a
Et,
den-40
ang°

.------
________
. iroduetion of the question of copyright into the debate
el!' ht rn to believe that those who had done so
eon not given the question mature consi lera-
we-ors"(Eiear, hear.) He should like to know
arguments could be adduced in favour of the
jlleutpante of this duty? The ab lition of it did not
in-
et °lye an interference with any branch of native in-
etlitY, and therefore he would look upon any argument
I!•vur of it as really a curiesity of literature.
le retie° CHANCELLOR of she EXCIiEQUER was
bad •"aPPe to bear that the Honourable Member who
he
,just sat down, had in this instance not adhered to
.uPport of reciprocity treaties.
th:47,;:. I)rsn Alm/ said he was always ready to defend
thetVaetPle of reciprocity, but agiin he would re.peat7
ea •e could net see why the question of internetioem,
oaPsYsiwenri.ght should have heels introduced into this dis-
k,. n
be d ..-i-)ORTTI WICK nnderetood that the revenue to
3.et er
e Ived from the duty, would not exceed 10,0001. a-
Mei:. Now, be wished to know if it was fair to tax the
itze°4oe"ar°4tooftheknowledee beeause contributed by o her
a' Sear hear.)' Could the addition of 10,000/.
Excheqeer be put in comparison with the
tiler', t of benefit likely to be confers d on the public by
-
and and free admission of foreign literature?—(Hear,
titiost;e It appeared to him (Mr. Eorthvvick) that the
lie i'v 0 was distinct from copyright, and that it
they
e P 3'
-041ethe--whether, for the sake of 10.0001 a-3 ear
tette admit or refuse that amount of knowledge vvlreh
te inlY should. be derived from the free admission of lb-
la literature.—(llear, hear.)
literati' Cr• CLERKE said it was desirable for the cause of
the literal diet this country should secure for its authors
wtry itl_PYright of their works.—(Hear.) In this coun:
tlts "us not the custom to publish piratical editions of
tteeeer' of any author, and if such a principle
lathe --"°Pted generally, he thoaght it would be much
R good of the authors of Prussia and Germany.
hat r'l4°PE said that nothing could be more fair or
tieDtC44 the observations made by the Right Hon.
Peeteetann, and no Gentleman in the House had a
Oise it w, WI to see piratical publications put an end to
ii them "'ICI ; nevertheless he should support, on a divi-
litt tion of the Hon.• Gentleman.
144 reatkiVES made a few observations, which did
e ler, ;et the gallery.
IeatIe.'4RDWELL was of opinion that it was per-
`bpe',e,tte that the duty on books and the question of
ktarhert were separate and distinct ones.. Yet, owing
4 thou tillber of English travellers in foreign countries,
'hatigaogohit it only right that there should be a fair ex-
bit, tit A 1 "Uratare•
4 *ft., 'IGLION By had come to the conclusion, that
itereoutii_inls.
errihwth:n+l desireable for what he called the
wished fur foreign literature, that he
etile have the opportunity of indulging h•s taste ; and
'kid etue question go to a division, he decidedly
, kr, yeen te with the Hon, Member for Dumfries.
L'itte i'"ISRAELI thought that nothing couldbe
71, tai than than that the English author should have a
"atteelitei Protection in his own country for the produc-
;ed e, s Oven mind, the same as Hon. gentlemen en-
i tee, je the case of their own estates.—(Elear, hear.)
theent has opinion, the author was entitled
to the en-
RPleetect such as fairly as the man who built a house
,411 a -7," 4 wood. All the English author required
Ithe'atr Protection ; and for the remainder, he relied
k eioed taste and sympathy of his fellow-chuntry-
alleeeartv he looked on it that the great question was
"ee how
the great body of the English nation be
tln from •
feted n 3 receiving at a moderate rate the works
NI grt authors- ?—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Disraeli)
eilithlt°titi think the question f copyright could be mixed
L'atthia matter at all.—(Hear, hear.) The question
e'keer„s; Were the people of England to be allowed to
note to works of foreign authors duty free, or were
kmq be,,, ?---(ilear, hear.) To meet that question, there
7thl `a a rigmarole Act of Carliament brought for-
(lf'an Act repugnant to common sense and justice.
ki ear 1
*11141ff: 'ear)—and he should say thst he would feel
Oa. her,a,nd, as he doubted not every Hoe. Gentleman
%Ng h tne welfare of literature at heart would, in
ecti etroPposition to the Ministerial Gentlemen. .
[,;tt'e ~;LIA-NCELLOR of the EXCUEQUER said
..4441t --hight be remarked, with respect to the duty on
Led,
if tt-','3lts, that it only produced 10,000/. per annum,
`,.'e Rouse would consider the amount of duty
s tevnuld see that it had been brought to the
Or! gestestble point to which it was possible to carry it.
LRlise'rtßlNG said that it would be better for the
e-"lt or nation to attend to their own interest than to
.‘ktere tereign countrie3. It was certainly desirable
'44' shonld get our foreign books in the cheapest
It
.st forrns.
ti,Pieti'd I!, °DEIMUSE said that he would advise his
de"!se ir,"2t to divide upon this question. He admitted
;erei*e,',Ple Upon which the motion was founded, hut he
"'Peg, 'oink that a very small duty would give any
Nal :-nut discouragement to the introduction of foreign
tieleatto this eountry, as it was almost exclusively the
eekr eirtales,e(lfe Persons that purchased them.
Clio. Ce-,;"e'leS said that he entirely concurred in the
1/41n•nitit, -11 "Y the lion. Alember who had just sat
Oil.e w re in
ed e, the place of the Right Hon. Baronet
"cern in th" question, he would throw up the whole
Nl_ll3 sootier than
proposed
b 3 harrassed by such vexatious di-
ir 'b.
SA,
ale'eaP„
id bee EEL said that
.there were certainly many_
1...`q hp_ In the introduction of such a measure as.he
:ke tfroduced. but he could not throw it up so easily.
Ihei.°ll. Member might depend on it that he would be eteeelttle
e I influenced by this decision. It was no small
eleietY that could induce him to relax his exertions
ticA. this question to an issu?, us that was the
,
iiiitileet at present. At the same. time, he did
* teet nO gentleman who concurred in the general
ee'tle ,e. of the policy pursued by the Government,
tiacle,"Lth to see this measure carried. Amongst 300
kakiontentioned in the tariff, many persons would be
ktateita that in one case too much was done, and that
Cite °err ease too little had been done ; but if they Lip;
Cod
tile NI hole comprehensively, he didhopeolrh
ceett , adduced in favor of one par a
btae
etike.,,all'nee 300, would not be attended to. so
_mulc,enuae,
helttip„t4e on the whole. The consideration of re
ItZ,tl p portent
but at the same time the measures he
`hiett-etTse in the course of the present Session would
kilillh4,-t'ally reduce the revenue. The duty on butter
saeNeatitliae„— atone produced 300,000/. per year, and. in
s sof' 55 that it was impossible to avoid all cinaside-
N;ate reevenne before any interference was made with
yiejenti the statement that the duty on the article
11'0 be " 10,000/. per year, was no reason why that
tte glee, retnitted. With regard to literature, the case
it ,4 je ;tut) but he was at present unable to entertain
4'4i:se (leernsieit,ion, as there were treaties pending with
;1/4,_ tie,- thin
subject, but there was no inclination to
votwfig,sconcessiou with regard to our works. Ile
t'freektt as the concession to be all on one side, but he
itt4lProj,et been enabled to gain the double advantage.
h'ir,4tke to the Concession. The The Hon.re Gentlemante whoduty oobn
atnetedPeeposalrodridifnotti: serlyan wish the
m grammar were
htibel'tele?oltland, the English production would be
IttitlC excise duty of 155., while the foreigner could
Peeti• P 4 work without paying anything. .
4'ilt `ART said they could come in cona-
0111,f Rt., saa not
Nl"' ttPe.—'44 said that in England, if a man were to
ne ',tit inrk he would be liable to the excise duty,
LleNe.lieeereignercould produce the same work without
eltle'sreir:tden. If an Englishman published a work
,eritet ;I'o language in this country, he would be
iol elie tt° eXcise duty • but under the measure pro-
4,aoe° Iron Gentleman, the foreigner would be
LN4 Of -4rtPete with him. He had, however, the probe-
k: httieeectinc- a reduction of the kind proposed on a
iltetellatirigeiita °scale, and he did hope the. House would
4riza °"' nonsieeration, and not give any
t 4,, neasUre opinion
el .itse •
ektioqte,,LJOßNE said that his Hon. Friend, de-
-0 0 b, te: credit for the way in which he had brought
eltitli/, II i. question He had brought the matter under
N4ett,--ea.softhe 'llouse, and he should be satisfied
lic.kfoe '' success which he had obtained without
0ti.,...
st dlyision.
Ntkrou t; said he could not agree with the Right
Ike lotte et °I3, this question, as the case before. the
re; Very peculiar one. So far from allowing a
e•Nilkto „`ll Works he thought it was the duty of the
14 't titve ever ' inducement for their introduction
kteith Nu* y
k t; am„ Y. • He was sure, however,. that sufficient
110 4 uetn done to bring this measure under the
kkin,. p,,,the Government. He therefore hoped that
01/40`elCe.,,end would withdraw his motion. . _
1e,4 thi`xnT said that he had not been fairly dealt
ii/iti%L.ll4 e`: subject. If the Right Hon. Baronet said
I, Olt te**" ttnce- take the subject into his consideration,
Nett Er„ the reduction of this duty, instead of making
Pliilthrel"dent on treaties, he (Mr. Ewart) would
!IIOIC4 that the Right Hon. Baronet had said that
I: ;lie leak should be taken into consideration.
cabala 'Tel the whole subject into consideration, and
Nelie,°' the investigation was, that he felt it his
N_i'esen'tl forward this motion. Now, however, that
e)Vetteee-4, ,must come under the consideration of the
Oh ulgie*. eu° would consent to postpone his measure.
41)dee**Itr -`,I,`I•ELI said that her Majesty's Government
tee 'tetiletil“at they would have never been in a mino-
4betlii, "' great and comprehensive. question. .was
keNtieti-eras more the question of. private discussion
;t„aree Interest, therefore this sort. of guerilla
k4l4'kftt; tile quo ave little effect on the ultimate settle-
ta4i
it jstion,
ietitkot:,:v Words from Colonel SIBTHORP the
e,mee Pert. ' withdrawn, and the resolution agreed to.
'4 II N ten
tti ae, 4,. of the schedule respecting foreign butter
lailia 1/4e, iter a few remarks from Messrs. EwART
etiiiethatieniituldaining of the present mode of landing,
e4uejeepeef the consideration of some improvement
k4utiltnt,lll3ertioriasoltsho agreffedto.
respecting
the duty to be
Ile l'eftter°l),Per ore. eb
tariff
read from the Chair,
date elig atitT.VINTZY erienniarked that the.. due.y now
kilt etPteoe . Is article would operate injuriously to
Ntlet:4lbl'laktiV this branch of mining.
ke ectliee, PEEL replied that the proposition.on
ittiea42, ailti submitted had been under consideration
tte P. 1141 i4te was made without any reference to
041 A 1,.. -res,„.
L'lktatte"Kt It.",
-v. I' 4rt• - 'nought that, as the revenue raised
~ IL hop Waste .
/Itettieettee- 110,, very trifling, It, ought to be aban-
denleethe'e that at some future period it would
L'l/41i'4.1(eg wirers' principle, which the Government
NI 0-(-)Nte,resPect to other foreign articles.
1114) 44 ti
this e4:.aid he presented a petition the other
l
title)klialatlr trade Ject, from parties engaged in severe
11,14 he Igo In Birmingham. They consictered
4 flt --' ear 7st seriousl • affected if the present reso-
INI 44tlitl:Itrtilhtirit.;vrt'ileriflelrbeteffiicnIgels
°I, 'tilt e oti t'et•
in the schedule, up to that
gke•t (pltter !re then agreed to.
read,
kett'retatkletd a e.,. "ked why the Right lion. Baronet
eu'lde. cr iitll.?stt.l,4):!rom the present tariff? The pre-
14.44,keeaa tet:4L said, ,rY high.
1/4,, aiet: ttrijet 'ist a considerable reductionles.rabs
Ntie Tit c'd greate In 1842 ; the proposing of which i i tht ptilo alarm in the Highlands of Scot-
, t%ra lea n this, as on other alterations then
1
I ti turned out to have been groundless,

still, unJor existing circumstances, he did not consider
it advisable to make any further reduction.
Mr. P. SC11O1?E complained of the duty on foreign
fruits, esp..eially currants, fig, oranges, and lemons ;
they were articles eel-len:Ile:I by the poor, an 1 essential
to the health. Though the duty on these articles in
1814 produced upwards of 300,000/, teid he theught
sento reduction should be made, r.-; in ?,Cute instances it
was 10,01 per cent. The Right Hoe. Baronet reduced
the duty on pr. served fruits in 1842. It was, therefore,
iliconsistent to impose a light duty on this kind of fruit
and a heavy one on the other. The duty ought to be
paced on a sound and uniform footing.
Sir R. PEEL replied that he could defend the duty
on no other ground than that it was required for revenue
perposes, and brought in a considerable sum.
The several articles in the Echedule., up to that of hops,
were then agreed to.
Mr. CURTEIS complained, in the name of the hop-
growers, of the great reduction which was made in their
amount of protection, while it was not met with a cor-
respondinte reduction in the excise duties. They con-
sideri d it but fair that if half the dnty on hops was done
away with, the excise duty should be reduced in an
equal ter-portion. It bad been stated that he (Mr.
Curteis) had said that the hop-planters in the county
of Kent were anxious to get rid of all excise duties and
all protection. What he had said was, that they were will-
ing to forego protection duties if they got rid of the
excise duties. He was quite aware that it would be
useless for him to move an amendment to the effect that
a taxation should be made to the home-grower, equal in.
proportion to thee which the Right Hon. Baronet in-
tended to take off the foreign planter, but at least he
thought that the claim he had advanced for the hop-
growers of this country should meet the Right- Hon.
Baronet's best attention.
Sir R. PEEL stdd that an unreasonable apprehension
seemed to pervade the minds of the lion. Member and
the gentlemen he represented. It was his (Sir R. Peel's)
desire to redeem the excise duties as far as might be,
and if it were possible to reduce the duty on hops to
one-half he should certainly have done so. It was in--
tended to give the home-growers a protection duty of
21. ss. per cwt., and he was certain therefore that they
did not require to press for a reduction of the Excise
duties to enable them to compete with the foreign hop-
planter. The arguments advanced by the Hon. Mem-
ber had been stated fully, and as fully answered, on the ,
proposition to reduce the protective duties from 8/. 10s.
to 41. 10s. Where were the foreign hops to come from?
Somo had been imported from America, but they were
of so inferior a description that they could not for a mo-
ment be admitted into the market against British hops.
There were some grown in Bavaria and Bohemia, and
he believed also in some of the central portions of Ger-
many, but the expense of cultivation in those countries
equaled their own. The climate was not more favour-
able. They had the expenses of land carriage and the
transit by sea, and he did not therefore see that any
alarm ought to exist in the minds of the home-
growers.

An HON. NI-EMBER recommended that one-half of the
duty should be taken off the home and placed upon the
fond ;.n grower.
This item was then agreed to.
The separate articles in the schedule up to fore'•gn
spirits were then agre:A to without discussion.
Dr. BOWRING said that every body knew that in
the south of France a response had beon given to the
propsals of the English Government, altogether of the
most encouraging character. He had no doubt that these
proposals would cause very great and important changes
to take place in the legislation of France. He would
therefore suggest to the Right Hon. Baronet the pro
priety of reducing the duty on French wines. A duty
of ss. 6d. a gallon on French wines was quite enor-
mous. In the south of France good wine could be
he obtained for 4J. or sd. a bottle. He thought that
2s. 6d. a gallon of duty would be ample, and he believed
that the revenue would be augmented by the reduction.
Although the population had so largely increased, yet
the consumption of wine in this country was not greater
than it was in the thee of Charles I.
Col. SIBTHORP hoped that if the Hon. Member
succeeded in introducing French wines at a lower
o,,ty, he would not propose the introduction of French
women, as he (Col. Sibthorp) was too much of a John
Bull for the t.—(Laughter, and cries of" Order.")
.sir R PEEL said that a reduction in the wine duties
would cause a reduction in the malt-tax. It must be
rcc,,11,-cted that the wine duties amounted to two
millin s annually, and some limit must be put to the
reductions. They had already made very large experi-
ments, and they should be cautious how they proceeded
Furth :r. He was glad to say that the principles of in-
tereh7nge were progressing in France, and ho did hope
that the time was not far distant when they would
prevail.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that when the question of the
corn-laws was discussed in 1815. Lord Grenville made
his meakorable sp, ech, and entered his memorable pro-
test against the propo,iti.ms then submitted. Lord Grey
said on that occasion that if the manufacturer was to
have his corn cheap, the farmer ought to have his coat
cheap. Lord Grenville in reply to that said that was quite
ree.sonab!e. He was against all protection. It was now
proposed to lay a duty of 10 per cent. on a great number
of manufactured articles. Now he had no objection to
that duty continuing during the time the Corn Bill was
to last. But when 1849 arrived, when the nominal duty
was to be established on corn, he could not see why the
10 per cent. should be maintained_ He could understand
Gentlemen who supported protection advocating the
continuance of this duty, but with respect to the Right
Hon. G. ntleman, lie was at a loss to know how he could
advocate the continuance of such a duty.
Sir R. FEEL spoke a few words in reply to the Noble
Lard, but in so low a tone of voice as to be quite inau-
dible in the gallery. He was understood however to say,
that he thought his proposition was strictly a fair one,
for the duty on common artic'es of manufacture of
every-day use was instantaneously removed, and the
duty of 10 per cent. was only placed upon manufactured
articles of the higher order.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the duty produced little or
no revenue, and as they were loth to do away with the
protective system in regard to agriculture, they ought
to extend the same principle to manufactures of every
description.

Mr. T. BARING said it appeared to be the policy of
the House to abandon the system of direct for indirect
taxation. Now, to carry out this policy, they ought
to spread direct taxation over as many articles as possi-
ble. The duty of 10 per cent would afford no particular
protection to manufactures, nor would it press at all
upon the consumer, but it would add something to the
revenue. There were many duties which they could
take off without lenefiting the consumer, and those
duties were of this class—prohibitory duties of a merely
nominal charact, r, for the purposes of revenue-
The revenue derived from Customs' duties, upon
some twelve or eighteen articles was insignificant
in amount, but if they placed the duties upon a large
number of articles, it would not injure the consumer,
while it would serve for the purpose of revenue. Why
did te:t the Government adopt this plan, and reduce
the he., vy duties upon important articles of consumption,
such as tea, coffee, and sugar ? lie thought, if they
wished to see the system of indirect taxation by means
of customs' duties succeed, they must spread it over all.
articles of produce or consumption, and not allow it to
fall only nron a few.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the system propounded by
the Honourable Member might be a good one, or it might
be a bad one, but it had nothing to do with the question
to which he had directed the attention of the House.
He had objected to duties being placed on certain ar-
Eicles not for the purposes of revenue, but for the
purposes of protection.
After a few words from Mr. T. BARING, in explana-
tion, and from the CHANCELLOR of the ExonEQuEn,
which did not reach the gallery,
Mr. HUME said he was perfectly surprised to hear
such d •ett ines advocated by an Hon. Member who had
all hie life been engaged in mercantile pursuits.
He felt satisfied that if the duties were removed from
the articles named, they would save at least 100,000/.,
which was expended in the collection of those duties.
If the Hon. Gentleman would refer to the schedule, he
would find that 22,000,0001. had been collected on
twenty-one articles per annum, and out of that sum was
expended 200,000/. for collection. Ile would, therefore,
suggest that the duties on all those articles should be
swept away, and the system of taxation would be sim-
pliti, .1, and the public would derive great advantages
thererr. en, by obtaining the luxuries and enjoyment of a
great iounber of articles, of which they were now
a1p.1014 dk rived, and which, as he had shown, did not,
from the great expense in the collection, yield much to
the revenue. With regard to the measure of the Right
lion. Baronet, he considered that one of the chief merits
was that they brought direct taxation upon the capital
and property of the country.—(Hear, hear) Ile did
not by that mean to say that capital and property
would be more taxed, for he believed that if the mea-
sures introduced by the Right Honourable Baronet
were adopted by the House, taxation would be de-
creased because the expense of collection would be less.
—(Gear, hear.) He did not wish to take up any more
time of the House, further than protesting against the
doctrines of Hon. Gentlemen opposite. lie was sure
that if the Right Hon. Baronet would only reduce the
duty upon three more articles—soap, bricks, and paper—
he would confer very great advantages upon the coun-
try. To meet the consequent decrease of the revenue,
the Right Hon. Baronet would only have to transfer
taxation to capital and property in a more complete
manner. He would conclude by repeating his opinion
that the Right Hon. Baronet had in these mattees pur-
sued a fair course, and ho must again protest against
the absolute doctrines of the Hon. Gentlemen apposite;
doctrines which truly belonged to ages gore by_
to the times of the barbarians, the Goths and Vandal:.
—(Laught-r.) He hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet
would continue in his policy in simplifying the system
of taxation, as he felt that such a system would not only
increase the revenue but also the happiness and satis-
faction ef the people of this 'country.
Sir R. PEEL said he should be sorry to enter at
leneth into the subject of effecting the reduction of public
taxes, because he was about to present to the House on
the following evening, a great number of returns, to
which he hoped the attention of the House would be
given.—(Hear, hear.) As he said before, if Hou. Mem-
bers referred to the amount of revenue received on the
articles of wool, linen, and some other articles, they
would find that the principles to which the Noble Lord
referred were founded upon truth. If the returns
which he should bring forward on the following night
were deemed incomplete, or any Hon. Gentleman wished
fef information on the subject, he would be happy tonflord
it. He might, however, at present state a few facts in eegard
to the effect of the reduction of taxation on gla!!s and
auctions last year. There had been a reduction in the
officers' expenses on these two articles alone of SS, 5001.
Mr. NEWDEGATE having made a few observations
which did not reach us,
Mr. Alderman COPELAND said that he lane w from
practical experience that the public had not derived those
advantages from the reduction of taxation during the

last year which had been described by the Right Hon.
Baronet.

Mr. lIUDSON said that no one could doubt that there
had been a large increase in the consumption of glass
since the duty had been reduced. There was no, doubt,
if they cheapened an article they would have an incressd
eonsatop:iou of that article, if it were in general use, and
demanded by the people of this country. No one could

for five minutes doubt the truth of this statement, but if
they proposed to take all protection from agriculture,
they were bound in justice to take all protection from
manufacture.—(Hear, hear.)—The Right Honourable
Baronet had said that he did not propose to take off pro-
tection from agriculture until three years, but he (Mr.
Hudson) thought that the country, notwithstanding that
ingenious argument, would demand that justice should
be done, by completely removing all protection from the
manufacturing interest. He had not the slightest objec-
tion to go with the Right Hon. Baronet in his principles
of direct taxation for the purposes of revenue, but he
could not conceive that the manufacturers could with any
face ask for protection for 10 per cent., when they were
the very parties by whose agitation this great measure
had been brought about.—(Hear, hear.) lie thought
they ought to carry these principles out.
Dr. BOWRING was glad to agree in the opinions of
the Hon. Member who had just sat down. He would
lend his aid to the manufacturers, who, he was sure,
would be glad to have removed from them the odious
system miscalled protection. He was surprised that the
Hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Copeland), one of
the largest merchants in London, should have come
down to the House and ask for protection.—(The Hon.
Member raised much laughter by the impassioned man-
ner
in which he spoke upon the subject.)
Mr. P. BORTHWICK said that the opinion of the
lion. Member for Huntingdon had great weight with
him.

Mr. DUNCAN said that the manufacturers would be
to be rid of the protection, and he (frr. Duncan)
would be ashamed to stand up in that House and advo-
cate the removal of protection to the agriculturist, if he
was not perfectly willing to have it removed from the
manufacturers.

CaptfCn HARRIS said that in forming the tariff,
there should have been some compensation made to the
farmer, more than that proposed by her Majesty's
Government.

Mr. FULLER made some remarks, which were in
audible in the gaVery.
On thco article clover seed being read,
Sir W. JAMES said that he considered that the re.
moval of th,7., thlt,..y ought to be immediate.

Sir G. CLEItk said that it would be of no benefit to
the farmer to take the duty off immediately, as they had
already purchased that quantity of clover seed.
On the article of poultry being named,
Mr. POULE TT SCROPE rose, and said he wished to
know whether there was any duty on poultry, and that
he thought the duty on eggs should be entirely abolished.
Mr. M.CARTHY (Cork) on the subject of prints being
mentioned, said that very great inconvenience was felt
on their importation, and hoped that the subject would
be felt worthy of notice—he had himself felt much in-
convenience on one occasion when he had to import some

prints.
The remaining resolutions were then agreed to, and
the report ordered to be brought up on Friday.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply ; the formal votes were then taken, among which
were the following :-300,000/., 100,0001. to the Out-
pensioners of Chelsea Hospital ; 40,000/. for the Navy ;
901,000/. for seamen's wages ; 400,000/. for ma-
rines; 1,200,000/. for naval stores ; 400,0001. mili-
tary estimates; 100,000/. for different military stores;
150,0001. naval stores; 400,000/. for sundries.

•
The House then resumed, the Chairman reported pro-
gres3, and obtained leave to sit again.
Sir R. PEEL moved that the petition of the ship-
owners of SundPrland be printed.
Mr. lIUDSON brought up the report on the Sunder-
land Dock Bills.

Sir R. PEEL presented a petition from the Town
Council and Burghers of Lanark, in favour of the
Government measure on the protective duties.
The House then adjourned at a Quarter to One.

RAILWAY COMMITTEES.

(YESTERDAY.)

Sub-Committee No. 1.

This Committee met again to-day, in Room No. 7; Mr.
Strutt, chairman.
LONDON, WARAVWX, LEAIVIENGTON, AND

KIDDZIZIKINSWER.

This case, which was part heard on Friday, was resumed.
Mr. COATI'S appeared for the promoters.
Mr. ELLICOMBI, jun., conducted the case for the opponents.
Several allegations against the plans and sections were
submitted. A few of them were sustained, and others
abandoned.

The most important allegations against the line were to the
effect that the gradients were not properly marked in figures,
in one case in a distance of 22 miles, and in another in a dis-
tance of 12 miles.

Mr. COATES argued against the allegations, but
The Committee decided the allegations to be sustained.
Mr. ELLICOMBE abandoned several similar allegations, in
consequence of their not having been properly stated in the
petition. Where the allegation was against public roads not
being shown, the petition merely said that "in the following
cases the P. IL is not properly market! on the plan."

The CHAIRMAN decided that such allegations were per-
fectly unintelligible, inasmuch as P. R. might be read for
priYate roads.
A few other allegations were abandoned and some ad-
mitted.

The case was then gone through, and
The CHAIRMAN said the standing orders bad been complied
"%Vial, except in a few instances.
THE EAST AND WEST-INDIA DOCKS, AND

=IRDIXNGHELM 31TNCTXON.

This adjourned case was the next called on.

The CHAIRMAN said that with regard to the allegations
which had been submitted to the Committee on a former day,
as to the powers proposed to be taken by the Birmingham
Company to borrow 300,0001. for carrying out the works,
the standing orders bad not been complied with, inasmuch
as the promotes s had not given proper notice of applying
for such intended power. In another instance, also, where
the sum of 50,000/. was proposed to be raised, the standing
orders had not been complied with on the same grounds.
Several allegations of an unimportant nature were then sub••
mitted, but many of them were overruled and a few sus-
tained.
Another allegation was sustained inasmuch as the section
did not show the lines of rails in junction with the Birming-
ham line at Camden-town, where it stopped short, not show-
ing the building of the existing line at that point.
Several allegations were abandoned.
The Committee decided that the standing orders had not
been complied with in the instances sustained.
The Committee then adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow

Sub• Committee No. 2.

This Committee met to-day at the usual hour. Present,
Sir J. Y. Buller; Messrs. Ramble, Bell, and Bramstone.

LIVERPOOL AND LEEDS DIRECT.
There were several petitions against this Bill, namely
from Messrs. Armitage, York, Rudd, I. B. Hollins, three
from certain owners and occupiers of land along the Hue, and
one from the trustees of the 'Whitehall turnpike road.
Mr. Parkes appeared in support of the petitions, and Mr.
Pritt on behalf of the promoters of the Bill.
It being half-past three o'clock when the Committee en-
tered upon the consideration of this Bill, there was only
time to enumerate the several petitions, and to proceed with
a portion of the formal evidence.
The object of the Bill was to form a communication from
Liverpool to Leeds ; the length of the line was 33 miles, and
the coot of the undertaking 300,0C01.
The Committee adjourned at four o'clock till twelve o'clock
to-morrew.

Sub-Committee No.. 6.

This Committee resumed its sittings at half-past twelve
o'clock to-day, there being present Captain Jones (in the
chair), Lord librinzton, and Mr. Hope Johnstone.
The following additional Bills have been referred to this
Committee, viz.:—

St. Albans, Luton, and Dunstable.
North of Norfolk.
Chichester and Bognor.
Edinburgh, Leith, and Granton Amendment.
Great Grimsby, Louth, Horncastle, Lincoln, and Midland
Junction.

Edinburgh and Glasgow and Scottish Central Amalga-
mation.

Aberdeen, Banff; and Elgin.
LONDON AND DIMAZNONA2OI (ErantrxNo-
EA= EXTENSION).

The object of this Bill is the extension of the London and
Birmingbana Railway to Navigation-street, in the borough
of Birmingham. The estimated cost is 350,000/.
The engineer is R. B. Dockray, Esq. ; Agents, Messrs
Parker and Co.
All the evidence, with the exception of that of Mr. Earle
having been heard, the case was postponed until that gentle-
man was forthcoming.
MEICSSTER AND BIRMINGHAM.

This was a postponed case from last Thursday.
The object of the Bill is the construction of a line of rail-
way from Leicester to Birmingham. The length of the line
is thirty miles, and the cost 570,0001.
Engineer, C. Vigil°lles, Esq.; agents, Messrs. Burke and
Co. ; solicitor, L. S. Baxter, Esq., Atherstone.
Standing orders complied with.
snErmiroxas AND LINCOLNSHIRE EX-