The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-21 00:00:00

REPORTS.

The following reports were considered and agreed to :
Exeter and Exmouth Railway Acts Amendment.
Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Amendment of Acts
and Regulation of Capital).
North Wales Railway (Dissolution of Company).
NAVIGATION-LAWS.
ISLE OF MAN.
Mr. PLUMPTRaElterparteisoen in the
presented petition from Whit-
stable against any

Dr. BOWRING Presented a petition from the Isle of
Man complaining that they were wholly unrepresented,
and that they were taxed without their consent, and
praying that they might be entitled to the privilege of
returning a Member to Parliament.
POOR-LAW. •

Sir T. BIRCH presented apeiition against the Poor-
law Relief Act.
Mr. COWAN presented a petition from the General
Convention of Scotch Boroughs, complaining of the
jurisdiction, and tho form of procedure in the Court of
Exchequer in Scotland, and praying that some measure
might be passed to remedy the evils of which the peti-
tioners complained.
ISLE OF MAN.

Dr. BOWRING said it was too late this session to
give notice of any motion with respect to the Isle of Man,
but he hoped in another session to induce the House to
listen to the grievances which the people of that island
were—sul.jeCted to, and trusted that the House would then
grant them some measure Of relief.
SALE OF SPIRITS.

the attention of the House to the proceedings which took
place in Edinburgh on the 3d instant, when the military
were called out to assist the civil power without the
knowledge or sanction of the Lord Provost, and without
there being any necessity for taking such a step.

SALE OF IiEER AND SPIRITUOUS LIQUORS.
Mr. WYLD presented a petition from the borough of
Bodmin to restrict the sale of beer and spirituous liquors
on the Lord's-day ; also a petition from the same
borough in favour of the Parochiul and Audit Bill.
Mr. HUME moved for returns connected with the
Trinity House from 1844 to 1847, in continuation of
former returns.—Agreed to.
MINES IN SCOTLAND.

Lord MORPETH, in answer to a question from the
Earl of Lincoln, said that/ the Government were now in
communication with the Lord Advocate, to see whether
they should not bring in some measure relative to the
law with respect to mines in Scotland, for the purpose of
assimilating them to those in existence in England.
fl*, however, could not undertake to introduce the
Bill in the present session. He could assure the Noble
Lord that the action that bud been brought by the.
Woods and Forests had been brought under the advice
of the Lord Advocate, and that it never was the inten-
tion of the Woods and Forests to resort to oppressive
measures. Although he could not introduce a measure
on the subject this session, he could assure the Noble
Lord that nothing would be done by the Government
till the Bill was introduced.
KAFIR WAR.

Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to know whether it was
the intention of the Government to recognise the ser-
vices of the officers in the Kafir war by decoration or
otherwise?

Mr. F. MAULE, as we understood, said that the
Government had no such intention.

Mr. B. OSBORNE then gave notice of his intention,
upon the first opportunity, to bring the claims of these
officers before the House.
BONDED SUGAR.

Mr. G. THOiIYSON wished, pursuant to notice, to
ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether the re-
fined sugars of our bonded sugar refiners will be alloived
to pay the same rate of duty levied on Dutch refined
sugar, on delivery from the dock or a bonded warehouse.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had not
by law the power to do what the Hon. Member referred
to, but he proposed to introduce a Bill on a future occa-
sion to enable him to do so.
CORN TRADE.

Mr. STUART moved, pursuant to notice, for a re-
turn of the names of till persons to whom duties on corn
imported previously to the Ist day of March, 1846, and
entered for home consumption subsequently to that date,
have been remitted, and. the amounts remitted to each
person ; and copy of any opinion of the Attorney or
Solicitor-General on the question whether duty was paid
on corn imported before the Ist day of March, 1848,
and entered for home consumption subsequently to that
day, with the dates of any such opinion.
The How. MEMBgn also moved for copies of any cor-
respondence, Treasury or other minutes and warrants,
relative to the remission of duties on 214,000 quarters of
grain, &c., imported previous but entered for home con-
sumption subsequent to the Ist day of March, 1848.—
Agreed to.
CHAPLAINCY OF MADEIRA.

On the motion of_Mr,DISRABLI, certain correspond•
ence between her Majesty's Government and the Bishop
of London with respect to the chaplaincy of Madeira
were ordered.
NAVIGATION-LAWS.

Lord G. BENTINCIi wished to know from the Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade, whether he would have
any objection to ,lay, on the table of the Uouse the
memorial and the petitions of St. John's and New Bruns-
wick relative to the navigation-laws.
Mr. LABOUCHERE as we understood, declined to
accede to the Noble Lord's request.
SUGAR DUTIES.

Lord G. BENTINCK wished to ask the Right Hon.
the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he had made
up his mind as to the course that
,he intended to pursue
with respect to the difficulties which had arisen in the
way of carrying out the sugar duties ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
proposed to move the insertion of certain words in the
Sugar. Bill to obviate the difficulty.
FO REIGN AFFAIRS.

•
Mr: C. s'ANSTEY said he had given the Noble
Lord...the Secretary -tee --- Foreign -Affairs notice
of his intention to put a'question' to him relative to a
correspondence which had. taken place with the Italian
authorities; but as the Noble Lord was not in his place,
he begged leave -to put the question to the Right Hon.
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It would be re-
membered that two months ago the Noble Lord
promised to procure the correspondence which had
taken place with; the Italian, Government with
respect to the late revolution in the Italian States,
to see whether anrportion of it could' be laid before the
House. The question he wished to ask, was, whether
the Noble LOrd had procured the correspondence, and
whether they might expect to see any of it laid upon the
table before the end of the session?

The CHANCELLOR 'of the EXCHEQUER was
unable to answer the t question, but his Noble Friend
would be in his place soon, when the Hon. Gentleman
would have an opportunity of repeating the question.
CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS.-

Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY wished to ask the Right
Hon. Baronet the M6nber for Taniworth a question of
which he had given him notice, namely, whether he in•
tended to introduce any Bill this session to amend the
law commonly known as Peel's 'law for
,the trial of Con-
troverted Elections. ,
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he had no intention to in-
troduce any such Bill.
SALARIES OF THE-GOVERNMENT.
-

Colonel SIBTLIORP said, he, wished to know whether
all the members .0f , the Government were in receipt of
their fall salaries.

No answer was given to this question.
IRISH SAVINGS' BANKS.

In answer to a question from an HoN. MEMBER,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER inti-
mated, that since be had announced his intention to in-
troduce a Bill to amend the law relating to savings' banks
in Ireland, the draft of a Bill had been submitted to him,
but it required to have some slight alterations made in
its provisions. He hoped, however, that he should be
soon in a position tointroduce it into the House.
Mr. REYNOLDS begged it to be understood that he
had not withdrawn, but had atilji postponed, his Bill en
this subject.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (3,000,0001.) BILL.

This Bill was read a third time and passed.
INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion being put for bringing up the report on
this Bill,
Mr. NAPIER rose to Move the insertion of the
amendments of which he had given notice.
The Hon. Gentleman was interrupted by the appear-
ance at the bar of

Mr. BERNAL, whb. Stated that the House of Lords
had agreed to have a conference with respect to the
amendments made by their Lordships in the Destitute
Poor (Ireland) Bill, and had appointed that the same
should take place immediately in the Conference
Chamber.

Several members *ere then appointed to attend the
conference.
On their return,

Sir G. GREY intimated that the conference on the
part of the House 118.4 delivered to their Lordships their
reasons for disagreeing with the amendments, which had
been made by their Lordships in the Bill.
Mr. NAPIER continued, and proceeded to contend
that the effect of the glause which he proposed to omit
would be to enable a person who had a judgment of 201.
upon a landowner, to sell the property out and out, with-
out giving notice to any other person who had a claim
upon it. Without the protecting care of the Court of
Chancery such must be the effect, and the fact was that
any man who had a good claim would have recourse to
the first set of clauses, and go through the Court of
Chancery in the regular manner, while the man who had
a bad claim would have recourse to the second set of
clauses, which would free him of the Court of Chancery.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, after commenting
upon these clauses iti'detail, proceeded to say, that under
them a tenant for life, who had a judgment hanging over
the smallest portion of an estate, might sell the whole,
to the prejudice of the rights of those who had future
claims upon it. He did not.require any power from the
Court to enable him to do so, and might thus, by collu-
sion with others, deprive all future claimants of their
rights and interest in the property. He thought this
was a most dangerouSkind of legislation for property of
any description, but it was peculiarly reprehensible in
the case of land, a de.cription of property, as it was the
most valuable, required to be surrounded with the best
securities. He did not accuse the parties who
introduced these clauses of any intention to
injure the rights or interests of future claim-
ants upon estates, they were of too high and honour..
able a character to have done so intentionally; but look-
ing at the whole scope and bearing of the codicil they
had added to the Bill as it came from the Lords, he con-
sidered that it was most dangerous. It could not, if
carried, be otherwise than injurious to landed property
in Ireland, and looking at the care and legal learning
which had been bestowed on the first part of the Bill in
the other House of Parliament, it could scarcely be ex-
pected that their Lordships would agree to such addi-
tions as those contained in the second set of clauses. He
would ask whether, under these circumstances, it was
wise to provoke a collision on such a question ? Ile
considered the provisions of many of these clauses to
contain a general attack upon property in Ireland. It
was, in his opinion, most unwise to let loose such
powers. There was no object to be gained by it com-
mensurate with, or compensating for, the risk—there
was no saving of expense—there was no protection
against fraud or collusion, against contingent rights.
For these reasons he protested against that part of
the Bill. He admitted that it was desirable to intro-
duce changes in the management of land iu Ire-
land ; but they must go slowly to work. If they did
so, and agreed to co-operate together, they would be
enabled gradually to lay the foundation of a better
system of things. It was not good policy to encou-
rage unreasonable expectations of immediate benefits to
be derived from specific legislative measures. Such
expectations were, in almost all cases, certain to be dis-
appointed and they ought therefore to have the courage
to do what was right, uninfluenced by popular clamour.
The Hon. and Learned Member concluded by moving
that the Bill be recommitted.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, in defending the Bill,
re-stated its objects, and the intent of the provisions ob•
jected to by the Hon. and Learned Member. The state
of Ireland was such a very peculiar one with reference
to landed property, that it would justify measures which
might startle those who were accustomed to the or-
dinary proceedings in our own courts of law and jus-
tice. But he had .not acted on that principle in
training these clauSes. There was nothing in them,
or in this Bill, which was not based upon analagous
processes in the courts of this country. One thing they
proposed to deal with was conveyances. In Ireland I

Captain PECHELL piFsented a petition from Mt
licensed victuallers at Brighton against the Chancellor
of the Exchequer's Bill for altering the law with respect
to the sale of spirits; also a petition from the brewers of
Brighton against the same Bill, and complaining of the
liability of licensed victuallers to have' soldiers billeted
upon them, and praying that they might be exempted
from the payment of window-tax.
MERCHANT SEAMEN'S BILL.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from shipowners at
Montrose against any new burden being placed upon
the shipping interest at this particular period, and pray-
ing that the Merchant Seamen's Bill might not be passed
into a law.
ATTORNEYS' CERTIFICATES.
Lord R. GROSVENOR said, in consequence of the
" count out " on Tuesday last, he was unable to bring
forward his motion with respect to the repeal of the
duty upon attorneys' certificates, and intimated that he
should now defer bringing the subject before the House
until next session.
COMMUNICATION WITH AMERICA AND
WEST INDIES.
Mr. MONSELL presented a petition from the county
of Limerick, stating that the port of Limerick presented
the best and most eligible station that could be selected
for a system of communication between Great Britain
and Ireland, and America and the West Indies, and
praying that it might be fixed upon for the departure of
the American and West Indian mail packets.
SUGAR DUTIES.
Mr. GOULBURN presented a petition from Jamaica
complainingr. wcAnDoftEheumteasures passed by the Government
with respect to that island.
Mr.
presented a petition on behalf of
the Brazilian Association at Liverpool, stating that they
viewed with great alarm the proposition of the Govern-
ment for the admission of foreign refined sugar, which
they considered would seriously injure British refiners.
AUDIT OFFICE. ,
Dr. BOWRING gave notice that he would renew his
notice fur copies of returns with respect to the Audit
Office on the Bth of August next.
NEW BOROUGHS.
Mr. HUME said, as he understood it was necessary
to introduce a Bill into Parliament in order to transfer
the two Members who were formerly elected for Sudbury,
to the district of Chelsea, Knightsbridge, and Fulham,
he should be obliged to postpone bringing the subject
under the attention of the House until next session. He
would give .notice to bring it before the House on an
early day next session.
DISTURBANCES IN EDINBURGH.
The HON. MEMBER also gave notice that he would call

the cost of conveyances was so great, as virtually to Mr. J. STEWART believed the great evil of Ireland
prevent all sales of small estates. What was the effect? was the want of a sufficient tenure of land, but, in his
Why, that the number of landed proprietors in all Ire- opinion, there never was a Bill framed more calculated to
hula was only 8,000, while half a century ago it was continue, and even add to thatevil,as the present measure.
estimated that there were 200,000 owners of land in It was well known that:holders of land there did nut de-

this country.—(dear, hear.) Then with respect to
sales under the second set of clauses, the provision

clauses merely amounted to this, that sales were to take
place with the consent of all parties interested, without
the previous concurrence of the Court, and the moneys
obtained from the sale should be paid into the country
for the benefit of all claimants upon the estate. As to
the objection that a tenant for life could sell an estate,
avid thus deprive others of their rights who had con-
tingentclaims, there wereprovisions which precluded him
from doing so, and, besides, when the estates were sold,
all the rights and interests in them ,were transferred to
the money in the Court which became its representative.
Besides, a surveyor was to be appointed by the Lord-
Lieutenant—a Government officer, in fact, whose duty
it would be to certify that the price offered was a
fair one to pay for the land; and taking the whole of
the provisions against fraud, he felt satisfied that under
these clauses they would be of the fewest and rarest de-
scription. According to the wish of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin
(Mr. Napier), the expenses which he would wish to fall
on the lands would fall on those whom he desired to pro-
tect, and thus a very serious injury would be inflicted on
those incapable of bearing such, and whom, according to
his amendment, he seemed desirous to protect. He con-
sidered that no good could be done to Ireland unless
there was an opportunity given to sell the land, for thus.
and thus only would a middle class be established, and
and thus will the land be emancipated, which is essen-
tially necessary to the well-being of that country. For
instance, he would say, that if land could be sold by
' divisions ot one hundred acres or more, that the ai-
-1 terest of the country, and the condition of the people
would be greatly advanced. He hoped that the mea-
sure, would be agreed to, because be felt assured
that it would prove advantageous to the interest of
Ireland. He would wish that this measure should be
extended, in a great measure, to this country. ; though
he should at the same time say, that such a measure was
not so much required for England, considering her cir-
cumstances. He hoped that the measure would be agreed
to, because he sincerely believed that it would work well
for the benefit of Ireland.
Mr. SADLIEII, said that he should support the amend-
ment of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member
for the University of Dublin (Mr. Napier), for he con-
sidered that this amendment would change the character
of the measure very advantageously, both to the pro-
prietor and to the purchaser of land in Ireland. He
thought it very wrong to confer upon every description
of incumbrancer, as well as upon the owner, the dan-
gerous power of proceeding to the sale of the pro-
perty by private contract, under circumstances to
which he had already adverted, and without any
check or control on the part of the Court. Under
the operation of this Act, the negative search for judg-
ments would proceed as heretofore; but in this respect,
as well as in the obtainment cf an account of costs in a
plenary suit, and in others, he conceived that the cost
of the working of the process wculd more than counter-
balance any incidental advantage. There were 3,000,000
of people in Ireland occupying holdings under eight
acres, and there were 663,235' farms in the country
under fifteen acres. Something ought surely to bo done
with reference to this matter. The Noble Lord at the
head of the Government was constantly vibrating be-
tween the abolition and the maintenance of those small
holdings.- But he appeared never to-have- made up his
mind as to what was the best course to be pursued. He
believed that though great exertions were being made
to sell land in Ireland, under the most favourable cir-
. cumstances, that purchasers could not be found for small
lots. The Bill proposed to repeal the statute of limits-
tioni, and in this respect 'he believed it would inflict
great injury upon infants and others claiming under an
obscure or loosely made will.
Mr. NEWDEGATE said, that however the Bill
might work in Ireland, he should be sorry to see it ex-
tended to England; and Hon. Gentlemen would utterly
sacrifice their regard for the rights of property, if they
sanctioned such a proposition. The fact of the case
was, that if they commenced upon that principle, they
would not well know where to stop. He was willing to
assist in meeting the case of Ireland, by facilitating the
enactment of any measure sanctioned by, the experience
of the House of Lords ; but as he thought the Lords
would not sanction the present one, he felt it his
bounden duty to vote with the Hon. Member for.

Mr. FAGAN said he felt.encouragedU address the
•
House by what had fallen from the last speaker, not-
withstanding the many legal technicalities which sur-
rounded the question. He approved much of the mea-
sure;' and hoped his Hon. end Learned Friend, the
Solicitor-General, would persevere with it until it be-
came the law of the land. The laud was the great
source from which peace, plenty, and employment were
to be expected; but how could it yivld them unless it
were emancipat ed from the burdens which oppressed it?
The question was, which of the two portions of the Bill
were best adapted to produce this useful state of things?
He would venture to say, that the first portion of the
Bill, which had coa.e dawn from the House of Lords
was so incurnbered as to be totally inoperative. It would
be better and more respectful to the people of Ireland to
introduce no measure at all. Let them protect owners
and remainder-men as Muck as possible, but'never lose
sight of the great object they professed to have in view.
. Colonel .DUNNE was or opinion that' property in
Ireland ought to be treated in the same manner and on
the same principles as property in England.. He thought
that any measure that went to a-confiscation of property
was bad. He considered that that part of the icheme.which
proposed the sale of land in Ireland, in small portions,
was objectionable, and that no greater evil could be
inflicted on the holders of property than a compulsory
measure of this kind.—(Hear.) The Honourable Mem-
ber for Carlow- had gone so fully and clearly into the
whole subject, and had so exposed its injustice, and re-
futed the arguments advanced in. favour of it by the
Attorney-General, and other Honourable. Gentlemen,
that it-was unnecessary for him to enter into the details
of the Bill. He thought that the introduction of the
measure into Ireland would prove a fertile source of

litigation in that country. He could not but advert to
one assertion that had been made in connexion with this
subject—namely, that the disturbances about land in
Ireland was one of the main causes of the disquiet in
that country; but he was enabled, from knowledge, to
say that that was not the case, and that the main cause
of disturbances in Ireland was attributable to bad go-
vernment.—(flear, hear.)
Mr. W. P. WOOD referred to the grounds upon
which the measure appeared to have been introduced.
The object of it, as it struck his mind, was to give effi-
cient legal rights and remedies to thosewho had positive
legal rights. It had been detailed to the House that
there were many estates in Ireland, the rental of which
yielded eight or ten thousand pounds a year, but upon
the improvement of which even 2001. a year were seldom
laid out.—(Hear, hear.) Now that was one of the
grievances connected with incumbered estates in Ireland.
Another grievance connected with the incutnbered estate
was the difficulties which were thrown in the way of the
sale of them by the operation of the Court of Chancery
—which required that a man must sell off the whole of
his estate in order to get rid of the incumbrances, in-
stead of allowing him to sell as much of it as he might
think necessary. The object of the present Bill was
mainly to obviate the inconvenience. With respect to
the allegations about fraud, he thought that the present
measure was well adapted to guard against that. He con-
sidered that the assertion that the measure would lead
to a state of things such as that in France as connected
with Communism, was unfounded. The grand object of
the Bill is to prevent the property from being wasted in
Chancery, and have the power of selling it in a more
expeditious manner. The Bill will give a summary
mode of proceeding. The incumbrancers in Ireland
had not the interests of the owners of land, and con-
sidering the state of Ireland this seemed to him to be
the most remedial measure for the country yet pro-
posed.
Mr. HENLEY said there was no difference of opinion
as to the propriety of doing something to facilitate the
object contemplated in this Bill, but the question was
whether this Bill would be effectual for that purpose, and
whether it would not do more harm than good. He
very much doubted whether it would facilitate the
sale of estates, but thought they were chalking out
a longer course. He thought that it would have been
better to have left this difficult and complicated matter
•

rive from the owners in ft e, generally speaking, but had
leases from third parties, which was, almost on all occa•

sions, studiously concealed. He should support the Bill,
it it gave a purchaser the power of treating with the
tenantry, as deriving for himself, and if they sold other-
wise, they had leases, sub-leases, and a variety of exist-
ing relations between occupiers and owners of land, which
would throw the whole country into a state of the utmost
confusion and litigation in a degree beyond all calcula-
tion. Suppose there was an incumbrance of an estate
created by himself.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.—Then he can't sell.
Mr. STEWART—If that were the interpretation
given by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman the Member for the University
of Dublin, who held so distinguished a position at the
Irish bar, held a different opinion. The purpose of the
Act, if it had any object at all, was to enable persons,
who at least thought they had an interest in th*-ir
estates, to sell that interest. But the present Bill
created new litigation; for the Ist and 10th clauses,
which threw the proceedings into the Court of Chancery,
would create years and years of litigation, and ulti-
mately swallow up the entire land of Ireland in law
proceedings. There was no man in England better able
to form an opinion on such a subject than the present
Lord Chancellor of England; but if all the proceedings
were to be thrown into the Court of Chancery, he, for
one, would not believe the Noble Lord had any band in
drawing it up. There was not a man, not even an Irish-
man--(Laughter, and .` Order")—who would purchase an
estate which was open to litigation as it would be under
this Bill.
•
Mr. MAUNSELL said that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman who last addressed the House, said he, did
not object to the Bill as it came down from the House of
Lords, but his .objoctions to it arose from the alteration
made in it. by the lion.' and Learned Gentleman the
Solicitor-General. Yet the arguments used by the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman were against the 28th clause of
the Bill, which was inserted in the Bill in the House of
Lords.. In his opinion, the Bill, as now framed, Would
greatly facilitate the sale of incurnbered estatei.in Ire-
land. It was a fact, that the pressure upon the tenants
in Ireland, arose from -the pecuniary difficulkes: of the
landlords of that country; 'and it was the duty of the
House to afford every means by which this eysteth
should.be altered. It would tend to the good Of the
tenants as well as to the landlords themselves. He re-
gretted to hear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had• expressed his determination to oppose the proposi-
tion of the Hon, and Learned Member for liilinarnock,
in relation to the abolition of the duties on the sale of
small proprieties. Ho trusted the Hon. and Learned
Member would persevere in his motion on this subject.
The House then divided, when there appearecr—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority - 1(s
Sir G. HAMILTON moved the insertion of a clause :
" Whereas doubts are entertained whether, when a judg-
ment affects landi in Ireland, and when the person en-
titled to such judgment is willing to release's portion of
such lands. in order to the sale thereof or otherwise, he
can grant such release without nullifying the effect or
validity of such judgment upon the residue-thereef, or
any other property which it is intended should remain
subject to such judgment, and whereas it is- expedient
that such doubts be removed, be it enacted, that the re-
lease of any portion of lands in Ireland from any judg-
ment affecting the same, shall not operate or be con-
strued to extend or operate, so as to nullify, or in any
manner to affect the validity and force of such judgment
as regards the residue of such lands, or any other pro-
perty not specially released from such judgment ; but
that such judgment shall continue to affect such residue
or other property, notwithstanding- such release, in like
manner, and with the like powers to enforce'payment of
interest and principal, and to all intents and purposes as
if such deed of release had not been executed."
After a few words from the SOLICITOR-GENE-
RAL, the clause was agreed to.
Mr. SAI?LIER moved several verbal amendments,
which were also agreed to.
The report was then brought up, and the Bill ordered
to be re-printed.
•
CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS BILL.
The order of the day for the second reading Of
,this Bill
having been read,
Colonel SIBTHORP moved as an amend.

It that th

.menu ,tat
Bill be read a second time that day six months• Inde-
pendent of-the-objections,-he'conaidefed-thatat this period
of the session it would be utterly Impbslible to. carry
the measure,, which ought to , have .fulls, firm`;` and
complete eonsideratiOn before it- became -:the-lavrof
the land. He was- very anxious to know when
they were, to have the budget, which he regarded
as of greater importance than the Bill soughtt to
be smuggled through Parliament by the Govern-
ment, than whom there existed not a more incompetent,
hollow, and treacherous set of men.. Froth the com-
mencement of the present session about ..sev'entytou,hlic
Bills bad been introduced, and forty-four Bills by pri-
vate,. Members, of which fifteen had:been withdrawn,
many of . them of infinitely-more importance than the
Corrupt Practices at Elections The-goti:"aud
Gallant Gentleman 'having Owl-aerated:the Government
measures abandoned .this session, described the Corrupt
'Practices at Elections Bill as, partial inits operatiOnOn-
complete in its arrangements, complicated,: in its-,ma-
chinery,. end_involving the principle of second trial for
the same offence.. .He. should, no matter what support
he received; feel it his -dutrth divide:the llouselig avant
the Bill. • • • - • -
Mr. HOBLlOUSE'Secondedthe amendment. •
Mr. liAlltEs "Concurred in much, that had fallen
from the Hots. and Gallant Gentleman, but could not
support the amendment, for he felt-that.' the Bill was,, if
not what they might desire, at ,least, in the main-prin-
ciple, deserving of approval. .There were some of its
details to which -be couldnot assent; but
_to- the present
stage of the Bill ho should give his vote. With regard
to some of the.places named in the schedule, he was not
aware of the demerits which had placed them there. He
regretted that under the Noble'Lord's Reform Bill bri-

bevy and corruption had become more common -theta
under the old system, and he also regretted the Noble
Lord had not earlier turned his attention to the sUbjeet.
He now, however, had no doubt but they would be able
to put an end to this
-great evil, although he was sure
that the Noble Lord could not think of bringing his
measure into operation during the present session.
Mr. C. ANSTEY thought at that late hour of the•
night, in the presence of an impatient assembly, this
was too important' ti measure to be brought on. The
House was not in a temper to discuss so important a
measure.—(Oh, oh!) And he would, therefore, move
the adjournment of the debate.—(oh, oh!)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Honourable and
Gallant Gentleman the Member for Lincoln had repre-
sented him as being exceedingly anxious to bring for-
ward this Bill ; but the Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman the Member for Dorsetshire had much more
correctly represented him, when the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman said that he was very unwilling to
make himself responsible for this measure at that late
period of the session. In fact, for many years past, he
had taken a very prominent part in these inquiries, and
knowing the invidious nature of a measure of this kind.
he had felt more unwilling than otherwise he would
have done is bringing it forward. He thought that on
a subject of this kind it was desirable to obtain as much
agreement in the House as possible.—(llear, hear.)
He thought that the measure which he now
proposed was sufficient for the purpose in view, and
he thoroughly believed the Hon. and Gallant Member
who opposed the Bill did not at all wish to promote cor-
rupt practices or bribery at elections.—(Hear, hear.)
With a view of obtaining as much agreement in the
House as possible on the subject, ho bad framed
the Bill in its present shape.—(Hear, hear.) As
be really thought that he had beau so tar successful, and
as he believed that the Hon. and Learned Member op-
posite (Mr. Batikes) and his party were willing to defer
their objections to the Bill until the House got into
Committee upon it, he thought that it was not a reason-
able course to move an aljournment at that stage.—
(Hear, hear.) It might be unfortunate that he bad to
move the second reading of this Bill on the 20th of July,
but if such a course of opposition were persevered in, he
would have to move the second reading at a much later
period.—(liear, hear.)
Mr. HUDSON said he had objected to the p

to the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, who would have made
rules and orders much more effectual than the machi-
nery of this Bill, for efft teing the objects contemplated.
He should support the motion of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin.
Mr. BLACKALL said he also agreed with the views
of the lion. and Learned Gentleman the Member for
Dublin. What they wanted in It-eland was a facility to
sell property, and the power of transfer more easy.
There were two points which at this time grievously
afflicted Ireland; one, the small proprietors, who were
the worst landlords in that country; and the other the
middlemen, who were, if possible, worse; and yet these
were the two classes they proposed to perpetuate. On
that account, and although approving of many clauses
in the Bill, he should certainly support the motion
the Hon. and Learned Member for the University of
Dublin, that the Bill be recommitted.
facilities in
Mr. VILLIERS supported the Bill. All admittedlre-
that it was absolutely necessary to give
Ire-
land for the sale of property ; and yet, althought the
Bill proposed to do so, the Hon. Member for Warwick-
shire opposed it on the ground that it would cotnrntt an
in;ustice, inasmuch as it disregarded the interests of those
who were remainder men, or held reversionary interests.
Ei n oab sGehrtriv eecile tnht adt
ewgrheaet
thehe saidh
rights
aost,,
that it dNidESnVopt protectEGAT
property.
Mr. VILLIERS resumed. The Bill provides suffi-
ciently for all classes ; and for his own part he believed
that every manufacturing district, and almost every town
were deeply interested in the passing of the
in England,Bill, inasmuch as they were heavily taxed to support
the poor Irish in this country. He was of opinion the
measure before the House was one of the best ever in-
troduced for the benefit of Ireland.—(Cheers.) The
great evil there was that land was entirely neglected,
and that the proprietors of property had no money to cul-
tivate or improve it. Such being the case, and knowing
as they did that the land was sufficient to support more
than double its population, if it were properly cultivated,
he could see no reason why such a measure should be
opposed by the evidence or Captain Kennedy, the agent
of Lord Devon. This was fully proved, and when they
talk of emigration, and sending away the people, they
ought rather to enrich themselves by keeping them at
home, and giving them plenty of employment. There
was enough of capital for the purpose, even in Ireland,
for it was notorious that, even during the famine, money
in abundance from that country had been sent over, and
invested in this. From all these facts he was surprised
how any Hon. Gentleman could fur a moment hesitate in
supporting the Bill,

tormer
Bill on this subject, and he also objected to the present.
Not that he was opposed to inquiry, but because the in-
quiry proposed was partial in its operation. If they
were anxious for inquiry, let each Member produce's re-
turn of the money spent at his election—(Laughter)—
whether by himself, his committee, or his agents, and
then after examining these, they could easily judge what
boroughs or counties were liable to be placed upon the .
schedule attached to the Bill, and what were not. Hu
was himself quite prepared to give in such a return.—
(Ilsar, hear.) Let the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government do the same, and let other Hon. Members
follow that example, and then there would be no dif-
ficulty whatever in finding out the guilty places. Should
they adopt that course they would have his support, but
he would not give his countenance to a partial inquiry,
such as that demanded.--(hear, hear).
Mr. W. MILES supported the second reading of the
Bill. Ile believed such a Bill exceedingly necessary.
He did not agree with the former measures on the sub-
ject, but he was ready to give the Noble Lord his sup-
port on the principle of the present measure. He did
not wonder that the Hon. and Gallant Member for Line
coln (Colonel Sibthorp) should not like the Bill, as the
borough he represented was included in the schedule, as
it was one of the defaulters. There was, to be sure, no
gross corruption practised in it, but there was a system
of " free and easier" kept up, which looked somewhat
suspicious.—(Laughter.) But what they had to look to
was prevention for the future; and thinking that the
present Bill would have that effect, he would vote for
the second reading.
Mr. NESVDEGATE rose amid loud cries of " Divide
and withdraw." He was understood to request Mr.
Anstey to withdraw his motion of adjournment.
Mr. ANSTEI.7 said, his reason for the postponement
was, that when he rose to address the House he was met
by a species of noise from the Treasury Bench which
be should not attempt to characterise.—(Laughter.)
Were he now allowed to proceed, he should state his
views on the pi inciple of the measure as briefly as pos-
sible.—(Cries of "Go on, go on.") The present mea-
sure was said to be founded on the report of certain
Committees. These Committees, it was said, had not
fully examined into the corrupt practices which it was
alleged had prevailed in the places referred to in the
schedule attached to the Bill. But why did not the
Noble Lord instruct his Atterney or Solicitor General
to institute an inquiry into those facts when they were
made aware of them? His not doing so showed that be '
was not anxious to scrutinise into those matters, more
particularly
as most of the Members against whom such
corrupt practices were alleged swelled the Ministeciill