The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-16 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, May 15.
The Los. CHANCILLOR took his sect upon the Niro°luck
tFi,. o'clock.

CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.
Lord KENYON presented a petition from the Marylebone
esstry against the Charitable Trusts Bill ; also a petition to
the same effect from the Methodists of Bradford.
Lord COTTENHAM presented similar petitions from St.
(Neves, Canterbury, and several other places.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
Messengers from the Commons brought up certain Bills.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.
Earl BROWNLOW presented a petition from the Mayor,
Aldermen, and Town Council of Boston in Lincolnshire, against
the Charitable Trusts Bill.
The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S presented similar petitions
from Carmarthen.
THE FREE CHURCH IN SCOTLAND.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from members of
the Free Church in Edinburgh, complaining of the refusal to
grant sites for the erection of places of worship connected with
the Free Church of Scotland.

THE CORN-LAWS.
Lord BEAUMONT, on the part of the Earl of Yarborough,
presented a great number of petitions from Lincolnshire against
any remission in the protection duties on the importation of
torn.

The Marquis of NORMANBY said that he wished to pre-
sent a petition which had just been put into his hands. It was
from the congregations of nearly all the Methodist chapels in
Xingsten-upon-Hull against the Charitable Trusts Bill, stating
that they viewed that measure with considerable alarm. The
Noble Lord also gave notice that on Monday next he should
move for a return of all the murders and attempts at murder
which had taken place in Ireland since the Ist of January, and
whether they were committed by day or night, together with
other circumstances that might distinguish them. _
THE CLERKS OF THE CROWN.
rsu of the
f
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—In pursuance
notice he had already given, he should move or a return
of the Clerks of the Crown. He should not have made such a
motion without a more distinct notice had he anticipated any
opposition. He had many opportunities of observing the
character of the present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and
he believed that he was calculated to be of consider-
able benefit to the country. The Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland was chosen in consequence of his ignorance and
want of connexion with the country, as was also his secre-
tary, and they were unacquainted with the people of Dublin
Castle, and the duties that devolved on them. There was a
gentleman named Pollock, by whose death no less than fifteen
appointments as clerks to the Crown fell vacant. It had for a
long time been under discussion, whether the office of clerk
of the peace could be united with the office of clerk
to the Crown. In consequence of the appointment
of some gentlemen to serve in those offices by
the custos rotulorum of the Queen's County, in opposition
to the Crown, legal
_proceedings were commenced, and the
question was tried at Dublin before all the Judges, only two
of whom were against the Crown. The question was after-
wards tried by their Lordships, and the decision given by them
was against the power of the Crown over these officers.
It was contemplated that these officers should be united. What
was recommended by the last commission of Lord Devon, and
on which so much stress has been laid on different occasions by
the Government ? He recollected that when that Com-
mission was issued, whenever Noble Lords urged the
Government to take some steps in the ameliora-
tion of the law of Ireland, they were repeatedly refused
until the labours of the Commission were finished, and their re-
port bad been made. Well, new that it was so, it deserved
the attention of that Government who had so highly valued it
before. The Commission that was issued in 1836 recommended
that the office of the Clerk of the Peace should be united
with that of Clerk of the Crown. But he would go
back to another Commission, which was formed of men
intimately acquainted with the country—he meant the com-
mission appointed in 1836, to review the grand jury laws in
Ireland—and their report ought surely to be attended to.
They reported, that the duties of the clerk of the peace
and the clerk of the Crown should be performed by one
officer, and that the duty ought not to be divided among
two—the office of Clerk of the Peace ought to be re-
tained, the office of Clerk of the Crown should be abolished.
When this subject was fully placed before the pub-
lic, the public expected the same arrangement would
be made for the abolition of the office of clerk of
the crown. He did not mean to say that, without
any inquiry whatever, all persons who were clerks of the
peace should be appointed indiscriminately to the office of
Clerk of the Crown ; but what he would contend for was,
that when these Clerks of the Peace were found to be fir and
proper persons for the offices, a due regard shwild be
had to the economy of the country, and the two
offices should be merged in one. Bet that
had not been done ; but the state of the fact wa; this, that
in three weeks after the death of the person he had mentioned.
a mass of applications had been sent in to the amount of several
hundreds, and the gentleman had not been dead a week
when it was well known who was to be his successor
to at least ten of the situations he held as clerk
of the Crown. It was a well-known fact that Mr.
Kemmis had been deputy clerk of the Crown for four counties
in Ireland and for the city of Kilkenny. This gentleman had
acted in that capacity for a long time before, but in the year
1818 lie positively received his appointment as deputy clerk of
the Crown. On the death of Mr. Pollock he was, however,
turned loose on the world without any compensation. Now, he
would a;ic if that was right or just towards the Irish people ?
He did not knew what were the abilities of this gentleman for
the situation he had filled, but he was well aware that he had
had three recommendations for similar situations from Kil
kenny, three recommendations from Wexford, three front other
counties, and two from the city of Kilkenny. But he dared to
say that they would be informed that arrangements would be
made by which the late appointments would not stand in the way
of future ap?ointments. They might be told so, but he begged
their Lordships to remember that these were patent offices, and
only held during good behaviour. He hoped that the Noble
Earl would clearly inform them on what understanding
these arrangements were to be made, and if they were to be
enforced. Now the public in Ireland had a right to be in-
formed in what these arrangements were to consist, and what
the Government intended to do in respect to these officers.
He wanted to know what were the arrangements under which
the appointments to those offices were made. He apologised
for having so long occupied the attention of their Lordships.
He hoped that his Noble Friend would tell their Lordship;
what the arrangements to which he had alluded were, mid give
distinct answers to the questions which he had put.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS said, he at once agreed
with the Noble Marquis opposite, that the Government was
bound to pay respect to, and seriously consider all the re-
commendations contained in the report from which
the Noble Marquis had quoted ; but he could not
say that he admitted that the Government was bound
to act in accordance with them. Now what were the recom-
mendations to which the Noble Marquis had called the atten-
tion of the House ?—That the clerkship of the Crown should
merge into the office of the clerkship of the peace. The com-
mission of which the Noble Lord (Devon) was the head, re-
oommended, that in addition to the duties of the clerk
of the peace, the same individual should perform
the duties of clerk of the Crown, and become public
prosecutor. Now, he (the Earl of St. Germans) appealed
to any Noble Lord, conversant with the operations of the law,
whether that would be a convenient or even a constitutional
Course. The Noble Lord seemed to be well aware that the
duties of the Clerk of the Crown and Assize were to prepare
indictments, to keep record of challenges, and various other
functions peculiar to such officers of the Court. And now he
would ask their Lordships whether it would be prudent the
same individual should perform the duties of Crown
prosecutor ? Unquestionably her Majesty's Govern-
ment were of opinion it was not. But then
came the recommendation of the Committee of 1840
to inquire into the grand jury laws of Ireland, which re-
commended that the clerkship of the crown and the
clerkship of the peace should be consolidated, on the
ground of economy. They recommended that the clerk
of the peace should, in addition to bis present remuneration,
receive a third more than his present salary for performing his
duties of Clerk of the Crown. But tisen that would only
realise a salary of 6,0001. for the whole of Ireland. The
Clerk of the Crown would then be obliged to have a deputy
equally skilled with himself, to assist in the performance of his
duties. The Government had considered what was the best
mode of effecting the consolidation of these two offices, and it
has appeared to her Majesty's Government that it would be
much more beneficial *for the dispatch of public business, and
consistent with their interests, that the patronage of these two
offices should be vested in the Crown ; and that it should not
be held by the custos rotulorum. By the present exercise of
this patronage, no less than fourteen persons held the office of
clerk of the Crown, who had not been bred to the profession of
the law, and even the very last appointment made was that of
a gentleman who had been an officer in the army, and, of
course, wholly incompetent to discharge the duties imposed
upon him. He would again state, that he held it far more
consistent with the interests of the public service, that the
Crown, acting by its responsible Ministers, responsible to
Parliament for their acts, should have vested in them this
patronage, and that it should not be vested in
the hands of persons wholly irresponsible. But at the
same time it had been thought expedient that the gentleman
who held these offices should have their rights respected, and
every gentleman who had been appointed since the present
Government came into office had bound himself not to demand
compensation for any change which Parliament might deem it
fit to propose respecting these offices. A Bill was before the
Parliament at the present moment respect to the subject.
Ha did not think that the Nobleho pat forward
with regard to
made out
appointed
the particular ease which he
a very strong case. The gentleman had not 11:ileaend'aisazile,st
by the present Government. It would not he co
the public service that men should perform the double duties of
clerk of the peace and clerk of the Crown.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that after what
had fallen from the Noble Earl who had just sat down, it was
right that he should understand what was the intention of Go-
vernment, and whether the appointments to these situations
were to be in the gift of the Crown or of the custos
ro-
tulorum.
Earl ST. GERMANS said it was the intention of the Ge..
vernment to respect existing rights when the two offices were
held by two persons, but in all future appointments the two
offices should be merged in one. With regard to the case of
the Noble Marquis (Londonderry ), he believed that that,
a peculiar one, and that the Noble Marquis's fathei•
had.
by which the
granted a patent to a party for the appointment, „,,_
right was taken out of the hands of the Noble Marquis. -1."
Noble Marquis appealed to the law, and it decided that the'
patent could not be interfered with.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY explained.
The Duke of LEINSTER would confidently assert that an
arrangement conjoining the offices of clerks of the peace with
clerks of the Crown would be a most beneficial Act for Ire-
land. He regretted extremely that Government had not taken
the opportunity, when so many vacancies hail fallen into their
heads, of making this arrangement. He nimself would wil-
lingly resign into the hands of her Majesty's Ministers the
power which had been given him of appointing clerks of the
peace. He was well aware that the gentleman that held that
office in the county of Kildare was in every way fitted for it,
but still he would willingly make every sacrifice, in order to
ensure this arrangement.
Lord BROUGHAM hoped that the Noble Earl opposite
would take the suggestion of his Noble Friend behind him into
consideration. Ile could seee no reason why they should
transfer into the hands of the Minister of the Crown a patron-
age which was so all-important to the interests of Ireland. Ho
did not say that that patronage had been abused, but still he
thought that it would be better placed in the hands of her
Majesty's responsible Minister. He objected to the judges
having the appointments of clerks
of assize on the. same prin-
eiple that he thought those who appointed the judAes should
have the appointment of inferior Offic.rs. • -
The Earl of WICKLOW said that he was bound to
House
thathad
g
the answer of the Noble Earl on that side of the ii
given him perfect satisfaction. It appeared that these seentle-
men had got their appointments subject to any arrangements
which might afterwards be come to by the Government.
As soon as the recommendation of the Commiasieners had been
attended to by the Government, and he thought that it was
their intention to do so, fit parties would be appointed to the
office. His Noble Friend had said that that was the intention
of the Government. If they had acted in accordance with the
recommendation of the Noble Marquis opposite, incompetent
parties would lave been appointed; but as it was, proper par-
ties, in his opinion, had been appointed.—( Hear, hear.)
Those that had been appointed by the Government would be
perfectly prepared to enter upon the duties of their office when