The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-19 00:00:00

4.
9 AUGUST 19, 1848.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, August 18.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
MONEY ORDER POST-OFFICE BILL.
This Bill ofts.od through Committee.
STEAM NAVIGATION BILL.
This Bill was read a second time.
AUSTRIA AND ITALY.

In reply to a question from Lord BROUGHA
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that the Go-
vernment had no objection to lay on the table the reply
of the Austrian Government to the dispatch of the Rug-
Foreien Secretary, dated 11th Sept., 1847.
Lord BROUGHAM would, therefore, content him-
self with moving for the production of the
papers, which would show that the Austrian
Government had been actuated by a desire to
strictly observe treaties, and maintain the peace of Eu-
rope, and that she had been actuated by no motives of
ambition or aggression either against the King of Sardi-
nia or the Roman States. With regard to Italiad
na-
tiunality, it was a chimera, and as to French interfe-
rence in support of Charles Albert, he had no fear of it.
It was not the interest of France to make war, but
it was her interest to weaken Austria by negotiation
if she could, and to deprive her of her fron-
tiers, and that she would endeavour to do with
our assistance. Radetaky had retired from
Milan from motives of good generalship, but having
received reieforcoments, he assumed the offensive, and
from that moment his career had been one continued
series of triumphs. Milan was in possession of the
Austrians, and Charles Albert had been driven back to
Piedmont, which he ought never to have quitted, sad
every acre of land in the north of Italy was in statu
quo. It was scarcely necessary for him to observe that
England, of all countries, should be the last to blame Austria
for holding Milan, because the Milanese spoke a different
language—England, in whose+, dominions so many tongues
were spoken; as Scotland, where one part of the people spoke
Gaelic; Wales, where the inhabitants spoke Welch; Ireland,
where Irish was spoken; Gibraltar, Spanish; the lonian
Islands, Greek; the Mauritius, French; Canada, French and
English ; Guiana, Dutch ; to say nothing of our great empire
of India, in which more languages were spoken than it was
needful to sum up. If this country adopted a policy of in-
terference in defence of Italian nationality against Austria,
had they no fear of their being sympathizers with Canada,
Ireland, and India ?—( Hear, hear.) The invasion of Italy
by Charles Albert was nothing less than a crime. He was
not an Italian, but was as much a foreigner in that country
as the Emperor of Austria himself. The House of Savoy
held Piedmont by treaty obtained, not by conquest,
but by what was very little short of fraud. The King of
Sardinia had only been in possession of Genoa since
1815, which was given to him by the Treaty of Vienna,
and to which he (Lord Brougham), in conjunction with many
others, was most firmly opposed. It was not on behalf of
Charles Albert, therefore, that this country ought to inter-
fere. Was it, then, proposed to interfere for the Milanese?
They did not want our assistance. The great majority of
the Milanese were in favour of Austria, because to the
great bulk of the people of Milan the !Austrian yoke,
as it was called, was in reality a blessing. Austria ex-
pended among the Milanese 2,506,0001. sterling (which was
equal to 5,000,0001. in this country)annually in works of pub-
lic utility, and, above all, in maintaining schools for the
education of the people. The late Emperor Francis, having
been asked to put down the system of assassination in Lom-
bardy by some vigorous measures, replied—" No ; I will
plant schools in Lombardy, and when the people have learned
to read and write they will be prevented from stabbing."
The system for that purpose established in Lombardy was
the greatest practical blessing that ever was conferred on
any country. The Noble Lord expressed a hope that nothing.
would happen to prevent the success of those negotiations
that were now being entered upon to effect arrangements
between Austria and the King of Sardinia, such as should
take away from France all power of obtaining merely French
objects, and, above all, take from that country all possible pre-
tence of intermeddling with Italian affairs. Before he sat down
he would just notice an erroneous impression which had gone
abroad as to his feelings towards the French people. For
that people—for the body of the nation at large, he felt
the most entire respect, and bore towards them the most
unalterable affection. He knew their great powers, their
great talents, their great capacity; and he also knew, ge-
nerally
speaking, their amiable nature, and honest dispo 1
sition. But there was a portion of the people of that na-
tion of whom Napoleon spoke when he said, "Talk not to
me of Frenchmen when you mean Parisians. Nothing is
better than a Frenchman, and few things are worse than a
Parisian." That, of course, was the exaggeration of an epi•
grammic expression, but what Napoleon meant was, that
agitators such as those, for instance, who were filling Europe,
at this moment with their mischievous doctrines of propa-
gandism, never would be satisfied as long as things remained
in the country under the dominion of the law. Reduced
to a lawless state themselves, bleeding at every pore in con-
sequence of the failure of the revolution of February ; and
the Republic, which they wished to establish not having
received that countenance or support they were desirous of
obtaining for they not only wished to involve the rest of
Europe in that confusion the evil consequences of which now
pressed so heavily upon themselves, but there was no ca-
lumny or folly to which in their speeches they were not
capable of giving utterance. It was that party in France
against whom he ventured to raise his voice. For the people
at large he had the most profound respect and unalterable
uffection.—( Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE having, before his Noble
and Learned Friend rose. stated that there would be no ob-
jection to lay the dispatch upon their Lordships' table, did
not consider it necessary on this occasion to enter into any
discussion upon the many topics to which his Noble and
Learned Friend had referred. With respect to that particu-
lar dispatch, it was one to which her Majesty's Government
were as anxious as his Noble and Learned Friend to draw the
attention of their'Lordsbips. He entirely concurred with his
Noble and Learned Friend in thinking that the professions
contained in the dispatch from Prince Metternich, in answer
to one received by him from Lord Palmerston, dated the 11th '
of September, 1847, were most satisfactory on the part of
Austria, as far as those professions announced what were the
principles and intentions of Austria. It might have been
on the part
sgr
trhhewtad obtbafiemetboonw Princeteiht.
,het i
satisfactory to obtain a declaration of that description at
that particular moment, and to have it recorded and
placed upon their Lordships' table ; because, undoubtedly,
at the period when the dispatch of Lord Palmerston
Ferrara,Dpnw eetr
rbt t
eet
eoe
vbr:eaAeiri
nccyu 1 les t
was written, and which had called forth the declaration
riehofwegrrnPaoe
mrYoe,l f—wathibhnaoetuiec consequence
apprehensionnLet
rsoe emtqbduoes advi
apceedra,
prevailed,lathovilfah,ediereseNaecmneaut: not in Italy alone, but throughout Europe, that
ppedosiitgitonalmtoositateevreferyreewteittehotfhge4.
which
rletseslyofwtelisoeseemrepefosremds.
lgreihpieencait:
Under those circumstances it certainly did become most de-
sirable to procure what they have succeeded in procuring—
a declaration on the part of Austria of her intentions. That
declaration exhibited on the part of Austria a proof that
neither now, nor at any future time, would Austria interfere
with those reforms so tar as they were reforms; but, on the
contrary, that she was actuated by a disposition
circumstdaenec(l
f
evi-
dence of which she referred to past
circumstances
declaration
tf.th etransactions) to carry
out such reforms, and apply them to the
present day. That was a most satisfactory
been
as far as an expression of opinion went. In the objeacal
tions entertained by Austria to the establishing, r
rather to the attempt at establishing, what had be
called the romantic system of unity in Italy, the Go-
vernment of this country could not fail to perceive consider-
able force; for they saw, as Austria did, all the difficulties
that would probably be attendant on such an event. In no
part, therefore, of these transactions had the British Go-
vernment given any encouragement to efforts that might
be calculated, at least at this moment, to prove successful to
a design of that nature. That which her Majesty's Go-
vernment had done throughout these transactions, and the
principle and rule which had guided their conduct, bad been
—not, as his Noble and Learned Friend had been misled by
rumours to believe, a desire to interfere—but a readiness to
interfere when called upon by their allies to do so; having
in that interference no other abject than the safety and in-
terest of those allies, and the preservation of the public and
European peace.—( Hear, hear.) It was by that standard
that he wished these transactions to be judged, whenever they
should come to be examined. Ile had the satisfaction
of thinking that their motives and object, in this
respect, had been duly estimated by the parties to whom
they more immediately bad reference. His Noble and
Learned Friend seemed to assume that, in the case of Lom-
bardy, there bad been something like interference on the
part of this country for the purpose of establishing the in-
dependence of that province; and, he bad condemned the
policy of such a step. Now, throughout the whole of these
transactions her Majesty's Government had done nothing of
their own mere motion. They had, it was true, listened to
the request made to them by her Majesty's allies, they had
entered into the most full, ample, and particular explana-
tions with those allies, whenever they were asked to do so,as
to the advice which they would give, and the nature of the
mediation which they could undertake. From the very begin-
ning of these transactions, in the month of May, when Baron
Nieumann came to this country, up to the present moment,
when he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) had received a dis-
patch from Baron IVissenberg (but which dispatch he did
not at present intend to produce), there had been evinced on
the part of Austria an anxious desire and indication to this
ils.
country and any m
fromcountry that she should interfere with her good offices in
circumstancesmotive hadr o eoccurrednt
ie
these affairs, and he was proud to say that not a doubt ex-
isted
said
as to
the
which u
nttiethyiantodfiheasatdtaetbtehse,eenbpudetornfbeeee.ttwueHnei.
betweenne this with great satisfaction, because at the present mo-
ment
toi r.mi t y and sympathy of feeling which existed, not between
England and a practiCal Government at Vienna—fortu-
nately headed, as that Government was, by a person well
known to Europe—a person, too, not '
unknown
in this coun-
try, in which he filled an honourable post with great
great dis-
tinction, a^ d obtained the esteem andapprobation
who knew him. From that person there h
ad been of all
every day since he left this country, dispatches received, almostin
which a desire was expressed forte mediation (if mediation
should be necessary) of the British Government The
same
feeling was expressed by Baron Nieumann before, and by
Baron Wissenberg after, the successes of Marshal
Radetzky.
Could there, then, be any doubt as to the f dl
nen y relations
existing between the two Governments, or of the unshaken
confidence which was placed by the Government of Vienna
in the intention, principles, and policy of this country?
In this respect, therefore, the Government of England
stood on very high grounds, and were he now at liberty
(but which he was not) to state the precise contents of the
dispatch from Baron Wissenberg, it would, he was happy
to say, prove not only that the Austrian Government had
preserved its ancient force and energy, when required to be
exerted in its own defence, but—without entering at all into
the merits of the contest now waging—he might confidently
1 affirm that it at the same time gave proofs of sense, wisdom,
and moderation, which could not fail to be conducive to the
termination of this 'contest between Austria and Sardinia,
and, by the termination of that contest, to the prevention of
European discord and European war, which would be the
inevitable consequence of conflicts of this nature being
allowed to continue and spread.—( Hear, hear.) Having the
satisfaction to make this statement, he certainly did not
think it would be becoming in him, on the part of her Ma-
jesty's Government, at the very time when they were called
upon to interfere, and when they ,thought they could rely
with something like confidence on being able to effect a
mediation acceptable to all parties to utter a word calculated

to hurt or irritate the feelings of any one of those parties—
' whom, whatever her Majesty's Government might think of
their conduct, or of any one part of their conduct, they were
bound to conciliate, and, if they could, to unite.—(Hear.
hear.) He would not sit down without expressing his satis-
faction at the approval which had been declared of the
course pursued by her Majesty's Government in endeavour-
ing to effect this arrangement in unison with the present
Government of France. That had been done upon the must
mature consideration. He was bound to say that up to
tha present moment nothing had cecurred with respect to
that course which could shake their faith in the wisdom of
the step they had adopted. They :had every reason to be-
lieve that the French Government had entered upon this
joint mediation with the same spirit, and with the same de-
sire to effect an amicable adjustment of the contest now pend-
ing between Austria and Sardinia, as had influenced her
Majesty's Government throughout the whole of these trans-
actions.—(Hear, hear.) So tar from being influenced by any
of those wishes for change, or pretensions for intervention,
which were ascribed to certain coteries in Paris, he was
happy to believe that the Government of France had entered
into this engagement with perfect good faith, and was as
anxious as her Majesty's Government were to avoid a war,
which, in its consequences, would involve them as well as
other nations in interminable scenes of distress, difficulty, and
discord.—(Cheers.)
Lord BROUGHAM said he had expressly stated that the
Government had been asked to interfere ; but what ha
maintained was, that they had interfered before they were
asked—they interfered on the 7th, and Baron Wiessenberg's
dispatch agring their interference was received bn the 9th.
He should be very sorry if anything he had said should pre-
vent their mediation going on, for if they negotiated on right
English principles—on the principle of treaties and the law
of nations—with English Interests in view as well as French
interests—he was perfectly certain that, instead of doing
harm, it would be of service.

After a few words in explanation from the Marquis of
LANSDOWNE,
The motion was agreed to.
Lord REDESDALE presented a petition from Ashton-
under-Line against the. Boroughs Incorporation Bill.
FARMERS' ESTATE sociErr (IRELAND) BILL.
The .Earl of. DEVON in movie o the second reading of this
Bill remarked, that whatever .thfferences of opinion might
exist with respect to other measures for the benefit of Ire-
land, there could be little difference on this point, that it was
essential to the welfare of that country that facility should
be given in every way for the improvement of the agri-
culture of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Great facilities had
lately been given for the sale of land itt that country by the
passing of the Encumbered Estates Bill; and the object of
the present. measure was to facilitate the purchase of land.
This Bill would enable a number of individuals, by the
union of their small capitals, to do that which any single in-
dividual of large capital was at liberty to do at present—to
enable them to purchase land in large quantities and sell it
in small quantities. He was aware that an alarm pre-
vailed in some quarters lest it should have the effect of
perpetuating the system of small holdings in Ireland. He
admitted that that system was a great evil ; but he enter-
tained a strong conviction that the passing of this measure,
so far from increasing or perpetuating that evil, would fur-
nish the best and most effectual means of getting rid of it.
—(Hear, hear.) At present there were 812,000 persons in
Ireland holding land, whose holdings did not exceed 50
acres, and the question was, would it not be better that some
portion of those persons should be enabled to become inde-
pendent yeomen, instead of discontented and miserable
teaants, by the purchase of land in freehold in portions of
not less than 30 acres? Any individual at this moment
might purchase land, in any quantity, and sell it in any
quantity he chose. He might buy, for instance, 10 0
acres, and sell them to 100 persons in portions of one
acre each; there was nothing in the law to prevent any in-
dividual from doing so ; whereas by the Bill then under con-
sideration all the land purchased by the Company must be
sold in portions of not less than 30 acres. So far, then,
from its tendency to encourage a minute subdivision of land,
it would, to a certain extent, counteract that tendency. If
by means of this Bill they could secure the introduction
into Ireland of' a certain proportion of persons possessing
thirty, or forty, or fifty acres of land in freehold, with the
independence which that possession would give them. he
maintained that such a result would form a most important
element in securing the tranquillity of that country.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, it had been ascertained upon unquestionable
evidence that there did exist in Ireland a considerable
number of persons with small capital, which they were
anxious to invest in land; and it was to enable this most
desirable class of persons to do so, that this Bill had been
brought forward. He begged, therefore, to move that it be
read a second time.
Lord BEAUMONT said, that on looking into this Bill it
seemed to him that its effect would be to create not only a
small but au insolvent* proprietary in Ireland, and that, in
addition to the difficulty of collecting the taxes upon such pro-
perty, there would be-the difficulty of collecting the purchase-
money. This Bill gave the power of purchasing allotments of
not less than thirty acres upon the payment of a certain
portion of the purchase-money at the outset, and on condi-
tion that in ten years the whole should be paid up. Now,
what he feared was, that in the eagerness for the possession
of land which prevailed in Ireland, persons of insufficient
capital would rush into the market and purchase land, and
being unable to extricate themselves from the responsibilities
thereby incurred, they would be evicted with the loss of the
little capital they had originally possessed. This was a
repetition of Mr. Feargus O'Connor's plan. The excuse of
the Government for introducing such a measure, and of the
House for passing it, must be the disordered state of Ireland,
which rendered such remedies necessary lest the malady
should become worse. He doubted whether any parties
under this Bill would be able to make a purchase within the
time which it prescribed; and he feared the result would be
the creation of a wretched proprietary, and continued sub-
division of the land.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE observed that, with refe-
rence to the recent state of Ireland, the Bill was of con-
siderable importance. A Bill had been passed to facilitate
the sale of land in Ireland, the effect of which would be to
bring a great deal of land into the market; and the object of
the present Bill was merely to enable a certain number of
individuals to do what any one individual might do, and on
terms more sate and advantageous, because one individual
could parcel out the land at once,• and form a pauper cottier
tenantry; whereas this Bill sought effectually to secure the
creation of a certain number of small proprietors. He felt
distinctly authorised to say, on the part of the Noble Lord
who presided over the Government of Ireland, and whose
attention had been called to the proper means of establishing
a number of small proprietors in Ireland, that in his opinion
this Bill was the most practical step that could now be taken
towards effecting that object.
The Earl of DESART was understood to object to the 1
compensation clause.
The Earl of ItODEN thought the Bill was likely to in-
crease the evil of small holdings, by which paupers were in-
variably multiplied; the districts where such holdings were
found were the worst.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE had proposed a Bill
against cruel evictions, but lie was far from being of opinion
that bad tenants ought not to be evicted. The Bill contained
a provision with respect to eviction. If it was desired to
remove an industrious man who had been living on the land,
he must receive full compensation ; but the Bill did not pre-
vent tenants being turned out who did not or would not pay.
Lord MONTEAGLE supported the Bill, but had some sug-
gestions to make when the Bill went Into Committee.
Lord REDESDALE thought the Bill ought not to be of a
permanent character. Power to purchase land under the
Bill ought not to be granted to a company
clause should be introduced limiting the powerfor ever, but a
of purchasing
land to 20 years.
The Earl of GLENGALL did not believe that this Bill
could be made operative.
The Bill was then read a second time.
The Boroughs Incorporation Bill, and the Steam Naviga-
tion Bill, were read a second time.
The Insolvent Debtors' Court Bill passed through Com-
mittee.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, August 18.
EDUCATION.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Mr. HENLEY objected to the control of the edu•
cational institutions of Scotland being taken away
from the Established Church of that country. He
had great distrust in the interference of the present
Government with education in Scotland. He was desir-
ous of knowing whether the Committee of Privy Council
on Education was in correspondence with the Archbishop
of Canterbury.
Sir G. GREY assured the Hoe. Gentleman that such
was the case, and he had no doubt the result would
be, that in the next session a Bill would be introduced
on the subject of education general'''.
Mr. GLADSTONE was delighted to hear that there
was a prospect of some satisfactory arrangement being
come to between the National School Society and the
Committee of Privy Council on Education.
Lord J. RUSSELL was happy to say that the corre-
spondence that had taken place between the Committee
of the Privy Council on Education and the Arch-
bishop of Canterbury wag nearly brought to a close;
and lie had no doubt that it would be attended with the
best effects. There was but one or two points of diffe-
rence, and ho had no doubt those Points would be
brought to a satisfactory conclusion.-_(h
ear, hear.)
The Committee of Council, he could assure the lion.
Member for Oxford, had no dosire to give the Govern-
ment greater powers to interfere with the schools.
lie trusted that the course that would be
pursued would do away with the ill-feeling
that existed among some of the Dissenters with respect
to their particip;tion in the management of the schools.
He regretted that at the present late period of the
session it was impossible that the House could enter
into the full discussion of this important question.
After some observations from Mr. Henley, Mr. Ur-
quhart, Mr. W. Brown, Mr. Morris, Sir John Walsh,
Mr. J. Williams, Sir G. Grey, Mr. liershaw, Mr. P.
Wood, and 111 r. M. Gibson, the vote was agreed to; as
was also a rote of 25,0001., to defray the charge for the
payment of enrolled pensioners.
The House then resumed.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again at a quarter after five o'clock.
CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS BILL.
The report on this Bill was brought up and agreed
to, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third time on
Monday.
WOLVERHAMPTON CURACY BILL.
This Bill went through Committee, and the report was
ordered to be received on Monday.
RENEWABLE LEASEHOLD CONVERSION
(IRELAND) BILL.
The
committal
of
this Bill was ordered to be pro-
ceeded with after the other orders of the day.
UNLAWFUL OATHS (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill was ordered to be committed after the other
orders of the day were disposed Of.
SLAVE TRADE TREATY.
The report on the Slave Treaty (Equator and Mus-
cat) was ordered to be received after the other orders of
the day were disposed of.
ECCLESIASTICAL PATRONAGE SUITS COM-
__

The House resumed
at a Quarter past Five o'clock.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from an Odd Fellows'
Society complaining of the Provident Associations
Fraud Prevention Bill, and praying that it might not
be passed into a law.

The HoN. MEMBER also presented a petition from
merchints, maltsters, and others, residing at Southwail.
in SuWilk, complaining of certain encroachments whirl,
had been made in the harbour at that place, and prayilT
foran

The HUN.Mk:alma also presented a petition sign
by a great number of female householders in Edinburgl,
complaining of the annuity tax.

FREEDOM OF THE PRESS.

The Hort. MEMBER also presented a petition from the
Editor of the North British Press, stating that he had
been arrested and imprisoned; that all the copies
of the papers ;bad been seized; that his letters had
been stopped for several days, and, to the best
of his knowledge, in the absence of any proper
warrant, and praying that as it was an unwarrantable
interference with the rights of property and the liberty
of the press, some inquiry might be instituted into the
matter by the House.
ODD FELLOWS.

Lord D. STUART presented several petitions from
the order of Odd Fellows against the Provident Associ •
atious Fraud Prevention Bill.
TRANSPORTATION TO VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.

Mr. EWART said he had presented a petition from the
free settlers of Van Diemen's Land, complaining of the
resumption of the system of transportation to that colony,
and he wished to ask the Secretary for the Home De-
partment whether the present system of transporting
convicts to Van Diemen's Land was to be continued, or
whether it was only temporary?
Sir G. GREY said it was in the contemplation of the
Government that convicts should undergo the greater
portion of their term of imprisonment in this country,
and that they should be sent out to the colony at a
period when they, were more likely_; to be useful to it,
and able to earn their own subsistence.

PROVIDENT .ASSOCIATIONS FRAUD. PRE-
.VENTION BILL.

In reply to a question of Dr. BOWRING,
Lord DUDLEY STUART stated that as he found
this Bill was not acceptable to the different Odd Fellows
Societies, it was his intention to withdraw it, and move
that the order of the day for going into Committee upon
it be discharged.

CHARITABLE TRUSTS AND COURT OF CHAN-
CERY FEES REGULATION BILLS.
Mr. TURNER inquired what course the Noble
Lord intended to pursue with respect to two Bills
of great importance. He alluded to the Bill for the
Regulation of Charitable Trusts and the Court of
I Chancery Fees Regulation Bills. The first Bill involved
a matter of the utmost importance, since it had reference
to property of the value of one million sterling. As
the Bill required the utmost consideration, and as
much discussion could not fail to arise upon it,
be trusted the Noble Lord would postpone it until next
session. On the subject of the second Bill a Committee
had sat for the last two sessions, and as the Bill had,
he understood, not been printed, and as the report of
the Committee was not yet in the hands of Hon. Mem-
bers, he thought the Noble Lord would do well if he
were also to postpone this Bill.—(Hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had consulted the
Lord Chancellor with respect to the first Bill. He at-
tached considerable importance to its passing during the
present session, but if the Hon. Gentleman was of
opinion that much discussion would ensue upon it,
he should not feel_it his duty to proceed with it dur-
ing the present session.—(flear, hear.) He had
no hesitation in saying that it was not his intention to
proceed with the second Bill during the present ses-
sion.—(llear, hear.)
AUSTRALIA.

In reply to Mr. F. SCOTT,
➢ir. HAWES intimated that be should as early as
possible next session introduce a Bill to afford the
Australian colonies the benefit of the British Constitution.

EVICTED TENANTS (IRELAND).
Mr. I'. SCROPE wished to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet the Secretary for Ireland whether he had re.
ceived any information that no loss than 500 tenants in
the county of Mayo had been evicted during the last three
months.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE had received no informa-
tion on the subject that he could rely upon.
AUSTRALIA.

Mr. SCOTT asked for informadon as to the provisions of
the Bill which was to be brought in next session affecting
this colony.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was quite contrary to the usual
course for an Hon. Member to be asked to state the provi-
sions of a Bill before he moved for leave to bring it in.
Mr. HUME said that two years ago he had presented a
petition signed by upwards of 2,000 of the colonists, praying
for constitutional government, when Government pledged
themselves to grant it; and he should be glad to know when
that pledge was to be redeemed.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that when the Bill was intro.
duced, next session, that would be the proper time to dis-
cuss it.

DISEASED SHEEP.
In answer to a question from Mr. WODEHOUSE,
Mr. LAIIOUCHERE stated that communications from
our consuls abroad had been very recently received on the
subject of diseased sheep. He bad directed that the papers
,hould be prepared, and they would immediately be laid on
the table of the house. In answer to another question, he
stated that the Bill on this subject, now before the House,
reserved the rights of the city of London, but that resorva-
lion would in no degree interfere with the jurisdiction con-
ferred by this Bill on the Government in London and else-
where.
MR. O'CONNOR AND THE LAND SCHEME.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS said he had given notice of certain
questions which he meant to put to the Hon. Member for
Nottingham; but learning that those questions had been put
on a tomer evening and satisfactorily answered, he would
not repeat them. He wished, however, to ask the Hon.
Member if it was true, as stated in the Examiner newspaper,
that he derived a considerable profit from printing the rules
and regulations of the society /—(Order, order.)
Mr. O'CoNNon rose, but
The SPEAKER said the Hon. and Learned Member ought
not to answer the question. It was contrary to the rules of
the House for any Hon. Member to put a question to another
touching the profits he derived from any source.
Mr. O'CONNOR persisted in saying that he had not
derived, and could not derive, any profit from the source
indicated.

VANCOUVER'S ISLAND.
On the motion that the Speaker should leave the chair, to
go into Committee of Supply,
Mr. CHRISTI rose to call the attention of the House to
the proposed grant of Vancouver's Island to the Hudson's
[lay
was mCao:tnepteonst-ile
companylleconsidered that before any such grant
the claims of the settlers ought to
be investigated. The company's charter had been granted
by Charles IL in 1670, but their operations had only com-
menced in 1690. The Honourable Gentleman then pro-
ceeded to give a sketch of the company's operations. The
company was established for trading purposes : it was
monopolising and restrictive in its proceedings, and as such
was most unfit to carry out a proper system of colonization.
They had but three vessels coming to the port of London,
airidnt3ho,eooguois:ds imported by them did not amount to more
tThe settlers also complained that the circu-
lating medium consisted entirely of paper (with the exception
0:i a small copper currency), payable in London only at sixty
t
days after sight. No person could hold land in the colony
without binding himself to military and civil service for the
defence of the compaey's extensive territories. He could
neither sell nor underlet the land without their especial per-
mission. No person could trade with any country, even
England or America, without a license. It was to such a
company that the Government held out hopes of giving the
Island of Vancouver, which was likely to become in the
course of time a place of considerable importance. It was
the
only place which had good sheltered harbours up to the
Russian territory. It was fertile in many places, and had
the great advantage of possessing coal mines. It lay on the
route to China from America, another circumstance of great
importance. For these reasons, and particularly because
the Hudson's Bay Company was inimical to colonization,
he lisped the Government would not grant them Vancouver's
Island t:11 further inquiries at least had been instituted, and
till the charges which had been made against the company
were refuted.
Mr. lIAWES said that the facts of the case brought under
the notice of the House by the Hon. Gentleman were these.
As soon as he Lad been appointed to the office he held, many
parties came forward and manifested a desire to colonise
Vancouver's Island. Several plans had been proposed, but
it did not appear that the parties who proposed them would
be in any degree able to carry out the objects they had in view.
It should be borne in mind that Vancouver's Island was one
of the most distant spots on the earth from this country, be-
cause to reach it they must sail round Cape Horn. It was
also most expensive, and. therefore, was the least likely in
the world to afford advantages for colonization. The
Hudson's Bay Company had requested the north-
west territory, including Vancouver's Island, but
that was refused. Subseqaently, they asked for Van-
couver's Island. Now, what were the objections to this
grant? In the first place, a series of charges had been
brought against their administration of the affairs of the
territory by Mr. Isbister, a native of Rupert's Land. His
Noble Friend at the head of the Colonial-office thought it his
duty to have these charges inquired into, and for this purpose
a communication had been sent to the Governor-General of
Canada. Lord Elgin's answer, dated the 6th of June, had
been received, and he stated therein "the results of the in-
quiries I have hitherto made are very favourable to the com-
pany, and they have left on my mind an impression that the
authority they exercise is on the whole very advantageous
to the Indians." But his Noble Friend was not satisfied with
that, and ho resolved to institute a still further inquiry.
What were the other objections to the grant? It should be
remembered that this was simply a territorial grant; let
it also be remembered that the company po.sessed by
charter the exclusive right of trading both with the na-
tives of the continent and those of the island, and that they
should be taken into consideration in any plan of coloniza-
tion. But the grant was only territorial, the company would
not govern the island. There was to be a Governor and an
Assembly, in whose hands the collection and application of
the revenues would be placed, and not in those of the Hud-
son's Bay Company. In establishing a constitution there
would be great advantage in establishing it in conuexion
with a company on the spot, a powerful company syho_poesv-
sessed the exclusive right of trading with the natives .
could not establish an independent colony witiwut funds.l
e
contributions of public money, or by means of pr
He believed that most of the Members of that
agrse with him that the present
the purpose
making large advances of the public
WAS not
for
tlihelOu'asteimweoufoldr
ifiolnfvoauruddtitoigdaonostoheNrvicloolo:.oyu-,laandbenoatpturailsolinFkienlydist•oidcuaarlsryeaomuct
t them it would be occupied
st
threoirri
go bjreecats.o
reasons
But o r on(,c the y otheroccupying
h islande hand,
Hear, hear.
evaerr.y)
Unless occupied very speedilyAbyd
-0 there was, besides, the
by others.—(Hear, hear.)
very lin pornt of that a
at hveant island
shndoud be
possessedi
coalminestawhiccioinsiideratwtion
was
worked for the interests of British commerce. He

[PRICE JD.

did not think it likely that those mines could
be profitably worked by private individuals. If the island
offered such advantages to settlers as the Hon. Gentleman
supposed, why did not private individuals attempt to colonise
it? Under these circumstances it was thought desirable to
occupy the island and to obtain the aid of the Hudson's Bay
Company. The charges brought against the company rested
on the statement of an individual; they were very imper-
fectly sustained by evidence, and they were distinctly re-
futed by the company. Colonel Crofton, who commanded a
detachment for seine time in Prince Rupert's Land, gave a
favourable opinion respecting the system of administration
pursued by the company, more especially as regarded their
policy in dtSconntenau,fing.;:dlie use of ardent spirit,.
IVitit respect,: to spiatual comfort and education, there
were four Protestant churches and nine schools, four
Roman Catholic schools, a Roman Catholic bishop and
several Roman Catholic priests in the Red River settle-
ment alone, which contained a pcpulation of only 5,001).
Pint, although he considered that the charges against the
company were not sustained, his Noble Friend thought that
the whole question should be investigated by parties totally.
disinterested. A gentleman who held a commission in the
Queen's army was appointed for this oflice.
An Hos. MEMBEa—Is he not governor under the Hud-
son's Bay Company ?
Mr. ItiIYES believed that was the case; but he did not
consider that would have any influence upon the report of a
gentleman of rank who held the Queen's commission.
Taking into consideration the circumstances he had stated,
he thought his Noble Friend was fully justified in the course
-he had taken.

Mr. GLADSTONE said that nothing but a sincere and
profound conviction that great public interests were at stake
—very great though somewhat remote public interests—and
therefore the more necessary to be brought within the view
and under the appreciation of the people of England—would
have induced him to delay the House from going into Com-
mittee.—(Hear, hear.) If on the present occasion he felt
obliged to express himself strongly, it was not from any
personal feeling. He did not mean to charge the Noble
Lord at the head of the Colonial-office with any improper
motives or private interest in making this grant, but he
considered that he committed a gross error—that he had
gone astray in his judgment more signally than in any
other instan& which he could recollect in the colonial
administration of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Of what
did the speech of the lion. Gentleman who defended
the conduct of the Colonial-office consist ? Partly of au
endeavour to make good the character of the Hudson's Bay
Company, and partly of an endeavour to show that it was
necessary speedily to occupy Vancouver's Island, and that
as the Hudson's Bay Company was the only instrument that
offered itself for this purpose, it was right, in the absence of
all others, to avail themselves of that. He (Mr. Gladstone)
would grant the force of that argument if they could show
that the Hudson's Bay Company was not open to funda-
mental objections.—(Hear, hear.) But, on the other hand,
if he could show that there were the most valid objections to
granting Vancouver's Island to the company, the necessity
for a speedy occupation would be no argument for granting
it to them, for it would be better to proceed slowly and
surely than speedily but rashly and mischievously. They
were not then discussing a question of a day or of a year, but
a question relating to an island in which, probably, at some
future period of the history of the world a powerful state
would exist, and which would command a great portion of
the trade between the Archipelago of the Pacific and the con-
tinent of America.—(Hear, hear.) The question, therefore,
before them was, whether they would found a new and
powerful state from the descendants of the people of Eng-
land, in an island which was favourably situated, which
possessed a climate somewhat analogous to our own, and
which had a considerable quantity of fertile soil ready for
immediate use.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman did
not deny that it possessed a large quantity of that valuable
mineral which was the necessary food of steam navigation.
It possessed a number of safe and commodious harbours—the
only good ones along the southern coast, except the harbour
at the mouth of the Columbia river, which was rendered very
unsafe by a bar that ran across. It was, therefore, probable that
Vancouver's Island would be the key to a great portion of
the trade of the west of America.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Gentleman asked why did not private individuals at-
tempt to colonize It if it was so good? One very good reason
was that till 1846 there was a dispute concerning it, and it
was not known whether it was to be American or British
territory.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman would
also admit that the circumstances of the country since 1846
were not favourable to great commercial enterprises. But
the Hon. Gentleman let slip a very unfortunate observation,
which showed that the island was worth being occupied;
for he said that if this country did not occupy it, and that
speedily, it would be occupied by others.—(Hear, hear.)
Others, then, would think it worth their while to occupy it,
and would take the opportunity of founding a valuable co-
lony. But the Hon. Gentleman talked of the expense of
sending people there. it was true that by sailing round
Cape Horn the voyage was a very long one, but it was not
much more distant than Australia. But no one could say
how soon a communication might be formed with Oregon.
It would be rash in him to say that such a communication
would be opened in any given time, in 100 years or 20 years,
ur 10 years; but looking to the gigantic works performed by
the Americans in that way, and how they connected the dis-
tant parts of that vast continent by great works, even some
of those who listened to him might live to see the day when
the communication with Oregon would be opened.—(llear,
hear.) Now, with regard to the Hudson's Bay Company,
all experience showed that colonization by means of compa-
nies was not the best. The colony of South Australia, while
under the management of a company, had entirely failed,
and it began to prosper only when taken into the hands of
the GoYernment. Ile agreed -with the lion. Gentleman that-
companies produced universal and unqualified mischief when
they undertook the business of colonization, and therefore
that the governing power should be retained iu the hands of
the Government. Ile admitted that they did not mean to
give governing powers to the Hudson's Bay Company. Btu
that company was a trading company. It was an exclusiv,c
company, iu the narrowest and tightest sense of the term.
(Hear, hear.) And it was also a land company. It was in
reference to such a company that Adam Smith used the fol-
lowing language:—" Of all the expedients that can well be
contrived to stint the natural growth of a new colony, that
of an exclusive company is the most effectual."—(Hear,
hear.) He was not to be understood as saying a word
against the formation of land companies, which he admitted
were capable of forwarding colonization, but if the Hudson's
Bay Company was to be a land company and a trading
company also, he protested against the arrangement. A
trading company would be a rival to the colonist, and they
would do all in their power to restrict and repress the deve-
lopment of trade. There was no instance of a prosperous co-
lony when placed under the authority of a trading company.
It became necessary to take away the trading functions of
that great and powerful company the East India Company,
because they were found to be an incubus on the commercial
energies of this country, and because they repressed the
development of the resources of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
So with the Dutch East India Company, which had the spi-
rit of monopoly enshrined in it, though it was not to be
compared with the Hudson's Bay Company. What was
the case with regard to their own colonies of North Ame-
rica, which were at first regarded merely as corporations?
All experience was against the combination of land pur-
chases with trading functions. There was never a case in
which the evils of monopoly had had such a rank develop-
ment as the case of the Hudson's Bay Company. This com-
pany had existed for 180 years, and during the whole of its
career exhibited all the evils of monopoly in the most striking
light. The lion. Gentleman deprecated any discussion of the
title of the company; but he (Mr. Gladstone) thought this
a very relevant question. It was the very weakness of that
charter which had operated malignantly upon the operations
of the company throughout its career. The charter of 1670
purported to give the most exorbitant powers to the com-
pany; but the company felt so little secure with its charter
that in 1690 it sought an Act of Parliament to corroborate
its powers, an Act which, however, only endured until
1697, since which time the company had no Parliamentary
authority for the exercine of its powers. In 1714 a Com-
mittee was appointed by the House to inquire into the
" pretended rights" of the company to exercise the powers
it claimed; and upon that occasion the company, so far
from insisting upon its rights, prayed, in its petition to the
House, that for anything that might be taken from it, it
might receive compensation. The Right lion. Gentleman
quoted Mr. Bancroft 's opinion, and that of Sir Vicary Gibbs,
that such a charter as that claimed by the Hudson's Bay
Company, granted by the Crown without the sanction
of Parliament was ab initio void and of no effect. There
was a joint opinion of Sir Arthur Pigott, SergeantAs a
i
Spankie, and of Mn Brougham to the same purpose.
fur-trading company, this company was altogether ineligible
to be entrusted with the charge of colonization. It was not
a colonizing company; it was essentially an anti-colonizing
company. Its object, as a fur-trading company, was neces-
sarily to keep its territories in the wild and savage state
adapted for the growth and diffusion of the animals upon
whose fur they relied for their commerce. It might be true
that in its older servants the company possessed the apparent
materials for colonization; but the absolute and unmitigated
despotism which had characterised the rule of this company
from the outset, had altogether unfitted these men as a body
of free settlers, such as alone ought to be planted in Vancou-
ver's Island, or anywhere else. To use the words of Captain
Willis, the company's servants were alljof them mere vassals,
pliant, from long and strict discipline, to the will of their
masters. In 1811, six members of the company themselves
memorialised the Government against the settlement on the
Red River, on the distinct principle that colonization was un-
favourable to the fur trade. The Honourable Member
argued that the company would make no great
profits of Vancouver's Aland as a colony ; certainly
they woult;iot, nor' aid they contemplate such a result,
their object being not the promotion of colonization at
all, but the extension of their hunting grounds.
The company had been all along the determined enemy of
colonization. Hudson's Bay,
it was well known, would afford
a large revenue from a whale fishery; but the company had
have
them fished itself, nor allowed others; nay, when two ships
came there en a whaling expedition, they managed to
them. sunk. In the same way the company had wholly
neglected to work the ample resources which a land com-
pany or a body of colonists would have developed on the
shores of the bay, and limey, many miles inland. There
had been an attempt made by Lord Selkirk, when he had
bought up some 116,000 square miles of the company's
territory, to found a colony at Red River; but the other
tnembers of the company had as vigorously set themselves
against the proiect, ast-he North-West Company had done;
and there was little doubt that there was cognizance, more
1
or less, on the part of those dissentients, of the attack of the
Indians upon the Red River settlement, which had been at-
ded with such sanguinary results. The same interests
wouldld be at work to oppose colonization in Vancouver's Is-
land, and—for there were Indians in Vancouver's Island—
perhaps
by similar means. By the deed under which settlers
hold lands under the Hudson's Bay Company those settlers
divested tbemselves of all freedom of action, of all the
privileges of Englishmen, placing themselves wholly
and in all respects at the absolute disposal of the :
com Pal :)
tied hand and foot. Was this to be the principle on slaii'
e
settlers were to go out to Vancouver's Island? The ch
co
pany had no sort of intention, when they negotiatedthmi;
matter with the Government, of forming what
N 4
stood by a colony in Vancouver's Island. This was' aas
suO up:ndger.
tion which the Government had made, and which
thelTles:
patty had accepted, with however wry a 1 ace, in the feeling
that at all events they could weaken the
of coloniza-
tion by all sorts of modes, asking, in return fotr the conces-
sion, a grant of all the Queen's territories west of the Rocky
Mountains, in order manifestly to keep._ other people from
coming anywhere near them. The lion. Member had alluded
to the charges made against the company—eliar‘ges suffi-
ciently important, in his opinion, to warrant, if not the re-
fusal of this grant, at all events its suspension. The Hon.
Member said there had been an inquiry into these charges;