The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-10 00:00:00

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'sod very fairly and truly-that we cannot „onfit the calsi7
deration of the naval force of other countries ; that we not
only cannot omit the consideration of their naval forces,
but that no one can find fault, and that no foreign power
ought to find fault if our navy is stronger than that of any
other state. So far I quite agree with the Hon. Gentleman.
I do not mean to say that we should absolutely adhere to the
rule laid down in 1717, that it is necessary that this country
should possess a naval force equal to any other two foreign
powers, but to the proposition that we ought to be stronger
at sea than any other power the Hon. Member has my full
"sent- But in discussing further the question as to what
that force should be, I own I think that the Hon. Member
laid down certain principles to which I cannot possibly as-
sent. He stated very truly, however, that the Right -Hon.
Baronet at the head of the late Government said that it was
Most desirable that other countries should agree with us not
to run a race of competition as to the amount of force which
each should keep up ; but that, instead of ruining each other
IT extravagant expenditure, it would be far more rational
and better for the people of all countries that they should
rather agree to reduce their forces to a moderate amount.
8,,,? far I quite agree with the Hon. Gentleman. But the
fon. Gentleman entirely omitted the fact that the Right
'len. Baronet, when in power, not at all retracting that view
Which he had laid down, yet found it necessary, in conse-
quence of the increase of the French navy, very much to in-
crease our force, and to lay the foundation for a very exten-
sive force of steamers. entailing a very large expendi•
tare on principles which he found it necessary to act
,11P00, although they were not the principles on which
he had said it would be most desirable both for France
and this country to act. It is obvious that if France
had been willing to take that suggestion, and make a great
reduction at that time, the Right Hon. Baronet would have
acted on the principles which he had laid down ; but as
France went on the opposite principle of making a very
great expenditure for the purpose of having a very large
naval force, especially a very large force of steamers, it
would have been quite impossible for any Government of
this country not to follow that example, and have on our
side a considerable force, able to defend us in case of war.—
(Hear, hear.) The lion. Member has referred to some evi-
dence of Sir. Thomas Hastings, and the Hon. Gentleman who
eeoke last said that he only had in contemplation what
lrould be necessary in time of peace. But at the same time
me knew that this country might be exposed to war, and that
Ir. War Should break out, possibly there might be battles at
saa,--(Hear, hear, and a laugh)—and I own I do not think
that,Sir Thomas Hastings, in entertaining that opinion, was
wandering very far into the regions of imagination, or that
he rendered himself extremely liable to the charge of being
fanciful in thinking that something might occur, which
furred six or seven times in the course of the last cen-
tury, and. in thinking that, if it should occur again, it would
he as well to be prepared for it.—(Hear.) Then the Hon.
.
'fitetaber in laying down certain principles of calculation,
says our steam, navy costs an enormous sum, and a greater
main than the merchant steam navy of this country. Ido
not know the particulars of' that estimate; but I am very
Much inclined to doubt the fact. But, however, I do not
think the inference which the Hon. Member draws is a well-
founded one, for he says "You have a steam navy which
has cost more than the merchant navy which you would
have to protect." Our steam navy would have to protect,
sot only the merchant steam navy, but .the whole commer-
%lel marine as well as to serve for other purposes of war and
defence, and render that assistance to our fleets which the
steam navy is called upon to afford. It would give a very
inadequate notion of the duties of our steam navy to say
that it was merely to protect the merchant steamers belong-
mg to this, country.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I 'must say I
%%lc- this principle of saying exactly how much is to
be the exact cost of your navy, and what is to be the benefit
to be derived from that navy in case of war, would lead one
to a very absurd conclusion. The Hon. Gentleman, for
instance, says, you have a large steam navy which you will
find in the end will cost more than has been spent in
building all the towns on the coast. Supposing that to be
t_he case, would it be a wise thing for this country in an
w•enotnical point of view—merely as a question of how
uocould spend your money to the best advantage—to say
j°a•vrould not spend, whatever it might he, five, six, or tent,
millions, rather than allow- the towns on the coast to be de--
alroyed ? Suppose this country was engaged in a iwar, and
Lust at its commencement a French steam navy invaded our,
'"ures, and that every town from Dover to Falmouth was
lacked and destroyed. Would any one say, " Well, after all,
w
ke are gainers by this? These towns cost for their con-
rilction some 15,560,000/. 19s. 100.; but as our steam
navy, if we hid one, would have cost us 1,000,0001. more,
;,e should have incurred that additional expense to save
t'aese'towns from destruction, and therefore we are gainers
1Y the difference."—(Laughter.) It is quite obvious what
the effect of this state of things would be—that the whole of
Le country would be in a atate of real panic, not that panic
:filch he says existed lately, a causeless panic, but that
Palk which moat take place when the country finds itself
incapable of defence.—(Hear, hear.) As a matter of economy,
What is the„cause and the whole secret of the capital and the
ti„ PeritY .of thie country ? What caused the people to have
greatest confidence in the security of this country, and
ma the faith of which they invested within the last few
,ears upwards of 300,000,0001. in railways?—(Hear, hear.)
hat creates that confidence that gives rise to our corn-
Murcia' and manufacturing speculations? It is the belief
'L,lukt•t,iiis country is secure of her independence, and that
e can maintain order within and command respect with-
v
~'""ur, People Alien that capital may be safely laid out
and invested in this country; but if they believed", that the
I"rlas on the Boast could be seized and burned by a foreign
,„
"aW.sri that feeling of confidence would at once cease, and
Lemons having capital to invest would say "We will go to
'ASV! York or Philadelphia, and fly from a'country which has
not the, wisdom or the courage to defend itself."—(Cheers.)
such appears to me to be the pounds, shillings, and pence
view of the question of our national defences, and instead of
• ilYing we are actuated by feelings of patriotism and nation-
; a itY, and talking of the British lion—(Laughter)—it is
11°101y.a calculation of what is the cheapest way of main-
.taining;the money, and the capital, and the riches of this
,xortilitry ; and I for one maintain that it is a cheaper way to
,to,llow the suggestions of the Right Hon. Gentleman the late
.'xrizue Minister, and to have a good steam navy, than to
calculated the exact cost of that navy, and to ascertain
:;whether what it was intended to defend cost a few thousands
more oe less, and then to decide that it was too expensive a
system of national defence.--(Hear.) Having differed from
the Hon. Gentleman in that respect, I must say that I agree
4 in much that he has said on another point, and I think that
- if the present French Government, being wiser than the late
- Government of France, should think proper to reduce their
naval expenditure, which has been rather extravagant of late
years—I think it would be a gesextoccasion for us to bring about
retrerchments which otherwise might not be considered ex-
Iledient. I think likewise that the Committee which lately
sat oa this subject has pointed out the several sources of ex-
PeOse which might very well be the subject of inquiry, and
;artful revision and amendment in future years. I certainly
umagree with the Hon. Gentleman who has said it is not ex-
Kedient or fitting that they should be submitted to a Select
emmittee. I think it would be unadvisable and unwise
",e take that course every year. I regret for my own
Art, that that course was not adopted in 1838, and. I
think the
lion. Member for Montrose was quite right
‘•
og.h. is suggestion that they should be submitted to a
"sugect Committee this year. I believe the appointment of
' a'Committee from time to time will be advisable, in
r. redo, to enable the Government and those departments to
a°o6der't the expenses that have been incurred, and to
arr.." vtetter course with regard to the future. I perfectly
llrewittes that nothing can be more foolish than for
th.and of different countries to vie with each other,
S__:;
sheerr.) A 8
"9,3 COMpike to having large armies and navies.—
general course of policy that is most un-
e ; but it must be recollected that we are not in the posi-
•oms of the Ihited States of America—we are naturally
t _lore involved in ell the questions which concern the corm-
, tent of Europe. ut still I think that the Powers of Eu-
t°l39 would all, do well if they adopted the suggestion that
!•ts been thrown out of reducing their expenditure to what
is really, necessary.-(Hear, hear.) I do not wish to fol-
LT; the Hon. Member for the. West Riding in those views
a' chhe took of the state of foreign politics; but I could not
L'elP adverting to this when he spoke, and I think he did
'''O.nuite'fairly,
;of his prophecy made with respect to the
tp a
.babiliti of revolution in France. I must remind the
itun.o4rable Gentleman that he made another prophecy—
, elhakt the Present Government WOuld be influenced by the
!Cue. itid coteries of London, and that in a short time we
thaul,d: b., involved in a war with France. I thought at
rne• time that that was most unjust to the Govern-
. veut 'of. this- country. I. can assure him that it never
our wish to quarrel with the Government of France ;
I,t Z▪ o, I believe, in the short time .that has elapsed since the
4e.w..revolution, the French Provisional Government has
041, On its park a sincere desire—as we have evinced
tql,L7uur. part a desire— to act in cencert, and on the best
teflorm of international relations with the Government of se
cart ul end enlightened a nation.—(Hear, hear.) I am
ziest -0 find that the present Government have disclaimed,
quiet 113e,_bri those projects of ambition which led France,
• Slitst ''"° republic mid the empire, first to brilliant con-
, ohd and afterwards to signal calamities. lam glad to
af. that the present Government of France, and the whole
toti`r French .nation, concur in the' impolicy of such a
peace' 0-n the contrary, 'their wish is to preserve the
not 9f Europe. That, ,if any desire for war exists.' it' is
tehayat twhiatth France. but with other countries ; but I cannot
I think at present the peace of Europe is, so assured
• of yeannY etatestnan can confidently predict, for any number
Coy,B, a continuance of peace. But, with respect to the
shice'""olent of France, I believe they are animated with a
fel Gru gettire to preserve peace. I believe that the, power-
ovens
asid anent of Russia is animated by the same desire ;
Fra„„""eu three such powerful nations as this country,
Xlir.-a'e. end Russia, are desirous of preserving the'peace of
t, Pei there is not, in my opinion, tke slightest probability
' yace being disturbed:—(Hear, hear.)
cakes this
lion. Member for the West Riding
tiou'`a this opportunity of communicating certain delete-
case Principles, of which, I believe, he is a persuasive advo-
T
• Irs e
t '
fir° I n
wish I could agree with him that what he calls the
ce
ndoleamoocratic government is calculated: to insure
nature. I must say that the,little
e have of recent changes has not been or a very pro-
, the:::oaracter: We have had the triumph of democracy
• ow 1"1Y followed bY the -invasion of Denmark and by
tleshaa.astirla of Holland; and I believe that the Hon. Gen-
current" rho of
he visits' upon Kings and Cabinets the oc-
' histiry of all past wars, will not find in the invasion.
• ludeed, ea of more unprovoked and flagrant
• mall la apr -_flat expree my opinion that the Hon. Gentle-
- founa.4.up:te,...ssor
of Philosophy on the subject which is not
I think I,,ituh`'ets The Hon. Gentleman is apt to embrace,
first glance but they
fir
do Precipitation, certian opinions which at the
_e celculated to enlist the popular conviction ;
.. • —they do
noutot
aPpear to me to be matured opinions,
in-
vestigation, or-PPPear to me to be founded upott any
cc All 4,;,° be authorised by anything that his
; so frequently Lai" Opinions 'which the lion. Gentleman
unauthorised by .celsaa
and to the country" arl. opportunity of communicating to us
• has said that the
what
and I think" the subject of war appear to be totally
do at 45 happened. The Hon. Gentleman
• . have been occasior not pride himself upon the gift of pro-
: ruins would be worth, he is quite rig(A laugh.) There
-and 'chapelshave been informed how much
and how the congregations of churches
would be increased ; and many glowing pictures
of the future f
Xembe_ .. Logland have been drawn by the Hon,
nr at different times and in different places. If they
much reliance in =son. Gentleman •
•:.•111-v-- et
been fulfilled, and after what has, fallen from the
hats said to-nigh
• deny the wholenight, I think the country will not place
fuure upon his gift of prophecy; bat I
Would be, able: e statement of the lion. Gentleman.
.feing to humanity, t, that the period has passed when kings
their provinceZ*
in
aggrandize -th • n in order to parcel out a kingdom or to
engage
ware, and to occasion great suf-
. leathorisee b but that statement is not
of ha__ y Anything that hasoccurred in the history.
hi. Th''.;;;°r)"•--but certainly man nature.
,I will
not go to what he calls ancient
man i3'—but instances that3'wo.uld totally confute
ren.lote history—where I could find
so frequently
will n tt. and peculiarly advanced b him.—(Hear.)
instances ot even go to ancient I
the position
more rife. I will -confine my-
everys are
self to
that much ustory, where these
foundiat strictly modem history where those
still influencing the destiny of
e man, which are
and in which are recorded those events which
history is of f
are influencin our. conduct at this moment. Why, modern
there modern hhimmlotre„leaxotdent. Two centuries and a half
comprise In
a.
ouvra...ars of signal interest that period there have been
. and duration. The first lasted
the 30 years' war of Germany. Was that oc-

~~~

casioned by a monarch desirous to carve out a kingdom or to
aggrandize his PrOvincesi NO, it 'isias a war of Fa-pillar
principles and of popular passions. Was the war occasioned
by the ambition of the French nation under Louis XIV.,
when France was opposed by the spirit of independence of
all Europe in a war which lasted for an equal period—was
that a war of individual feeling? On the contrary, it arose
from the indignant spirit of all Europe. And was the war
produced by the first revolution in France, and achieved by
Napoleon, a war of aristocratic or exclusive promoting?
On the contrary, all these great wars, each of 30 years
duration, extending over a term of 90 years, one-third of
the period of modern history, were occasioned by popular
passions, .by popular prejudice, and by the ambition
of nations. Even if I were to go into little
wars (and I do not wish to do so unless it is
necessary in refuting these oft-repeated fallacies), • I could
show that it was not the Sovereign or the Cabinet that oc-
casioned them. No—they were, as a general principle, too
well acquainted with the resources of countries to occasion
war. How arose the war which occurred during the Admi-
nistration of Sir R. Walpole. from the case of Captain Jen-
kins and his ear, when the House rose in tumult, and the
most powerful Minister who ever ruled England was obliged
to succumb to popular feeling, and to engage in war with
Spain ? That war did not arise from the ambition of a sove-
reign ; 'it was a war created by the prejudice and passion of
the people: and I have no doubt that other wars will arise
from a similar cause. The Hon. Gentleman has said, in a
mast extraordinary manner, that our security for peace at
the present day is the desire of nations to keep at home.
There is a great difference between nationality and race.
Nationality is the principle of political independence.
Race is the principle of physical analogy, and you
have at this moment the principle of race—not at
all of nationality—adopted by Germany, the very country
to which the Honourable Member for the West Riding re-
ferred. What must be the unavoidable consequence of that
principle of race to which the Hon. Gentleman looks as the
security for the peace of Europe? What must be the conse-
quence of the development of that principle? if it is to be
accepted as a great political truth, sanctioned by the Hon.
Member for the West Riding, why is France to be left in
possession of Lorraine and Alsace? 'Why is Russia to remain
in possession of Livonia? If that principle is to be accepted
as a truth, you have not a security for peace, but a certainty
of general and almost perpetual war; and yet it is upon this
principle that the Hon. Gentleman—a great authority—has
come down to criticise the estimates of the Government, and
to deny that there is any necessity for a country defending
itself. lam not surprised, indeed, that the Horn Member
should be opposed to " protection" in every shape—(A laugh)
—but still I think, in one shape, the question of the protection
of our own shores and our own hearths will always be popular
with both sides of this House.—(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, the
Noble Lord in the speech, full of sound sense and excellent
feeling, which he has just addressed to us, has found great
confidence in the future prospects of peace for the world in
the sympathy of feeling for that object between what he
described as three powerful Governments—our own, the Go-
vernment of France, and the Government of Prussia.—(An
Hon. Member—" Russia.") True; Russia. I must apolo-
gise to Prussia for having mentioned it as a Government.-
(A laugh.). I am excessively glad to find that there is a
Government in France— (Hear, and a laugh)—a Govern.
ment that has been described to-night as a powerful Go-
ternment. I think, after this announcement from so great
an authority as the First Minister, it would be but conde-
scending to recognize that Government.—[Lord J. RUSSELL,
we believe—" It is recognized."] Really, to describe that as
a powerful Government which had not yet been recognized
by the Queen would be somewhat to anticipate the course of
destiny.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) However, these ob-
servations have been drawn from me by what fell from the
Honourable Member for the %Vest Riding. I rose because
I wanted to know from some member of the Govern-
ment what force they have, for instance, at this moment
In the Baltic. I find that one of the strictest blockades ever
proclaimed has now been declared in that sea ; and cer-
tainly with this great expenditure of force, with a Govern-
ment which we are assured takes care that even our con-
tracted trade and limited commerce with China should be
sufficiently guarded, it would be some consolation to the
merchants of Great Britain it they knew that their interests
were attended to in this quarter. The House will recollect
that Denmark, in self- defence, was obliged to proclaim a
blockade some months ago in the Baltic ; but from the very
best motives it was arranged in a manner as little noxious
as possible to neutrals, and especially in reference to the in-
terests of British commerce; of the return which Denmark
has received for its conciliatory conduct, I need not remind
the House. But the blockade which has now been declared
—I am sure no Member in the House can blame Denmark
for the course it has taken—is one of the most stringent and
severe character, and much more comprehensive than the
other; it is not now confined to a few ports in the Bal-
tic—it takes in the North Sea, the west as well as the
north of Germany. I should like to have an intimation
from her Majesty's Ministers which would at least give
some satisfaction to the merchants of this country upon
that subject. They have shown, I must say, the greatest
temper upon the whole question of the misconception
between Germany and Denmark. The original blockade
did them a great deal of harm, but they acknowledged the
justice of the cause of Denmark, and they felt that it was a
legitimate arm of defence, of which that state availed itself.
The merchants were satisfied with the declaration of the
Noble Lord the Secretary of State, and they refrained from
petitioning this House or appealing to their representatives.
They have waited with the greatest interest for the termi-
nation of his interference • and the only return, apparently,
which they have received for their good temper and pa •
tience, and confidence in their Government, is the declara-
tion to-day of a much more severe and stringent blockade,
which must prove necessarily more injurious, and most inju-
rious to their interests. I wish to have some explanation
upon this subject from the Government, and some account
of the precautions they have taken with this great arm of
England, the resources of which we are discussing, for the
protection of our commercial interests and the guardian-
ship of British commerce in those waters.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord the Secretary of State told us once, when
I brought the matter forward, that he had ac-
cepted a mediation upon the subject; I beg to remind
the House, that it is not Denmark that solicited the
mediation of the British Government. Denmark required
the fulfilment of a guarantee on the part of the British Go-
vernment.—(Hear, hear.) It was Prussia— Prussia, speaking
on behalf of the new Germanic Confederation, that required
that mediation.—(Hear, hear.) The mediation took place;
Prussia agreed to an armistice, which has never been com-
pleted, and Denmark has been forced to the step that has
this day been announced. I want to know what protection
has been afforded to British interests endangered by these
circumstances. I want to know—l shall not press it now, but
it would be gracious on the part of the Noble Lord to tell us—
whether Prussia still remains an independent state? —(Hear.
hear.) Because, then, the merchants would be able to form
some calculation of the chances of redress they have. The
Prince of Leiningen, I perceive, a most able and accom-
plished man, has become Minister of Foreign Affairs for the
Germanic Confederation. I want to know whether there is
to be another mediatised prince.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
I hope he will not become a Minister for Foreign Affairs.—
(A laugh.) But these are circumstances which require
some explanation from the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) There
is another blockade of very great importance, to which I
must also call the attention of her Majesty's Government;
and I want to know what steps they have adopted to take
care of British interests in that quarter; for what is.the use
of voting millions for the navy if we are not attending to
these interests in moments of war and in remote regions ?
I can understand very well the Honourable Member for the
West Riding, who calls our attention to the fact, that our
commerce in a particular quarter does not justify from its
its amount the expenditure we are incurring in order to
guard it ; it is a subject which, if pursued, would give rise
to many considerations which 1 do not mean now to follow ;
at the iirst blush it is a position that cannot easily be im-
pugned; but I think all will admit that a nation that has a
navy, and a nation that is celebrated for two things—the
moat exrensive commerce and the most powerful navy—
should take care that that extensive commerce is protected
where foreign war is raging. Now I want to know what is the
state of our force in the troubled waters of La Plata.—
(Hear, hear.) I have the best reason in the world for ask-
ing that question ; I have a letter here which I received
to-day, but will not now read, from :a member of a most
eminent Liverpool firm, and I am informed by it that one of
the most important houses connected with our trade with
the regions of La Plata has been obliged to suspend its
' payments in consequence of the state of affairs in La Plata—
(Hear)—and my informant says, very candidly, that be
does not see why, unless some settlement of the affairs of
those countries takes place, every other house connected
with that trade should not be prepared for ,results equally
disastrous.—(Hear, hear.) We have had now for five or
six years in those waters a force of unprecedented amount
for those regions; the result has been very unsatisfactory
for some time ; the accounts that haws reached us have not
been such as have encouraged British enterprise, or
compensated in any degree for the losses of our fellow-
countrymen ; but the most remarkable circumstance of
this protracted blockade, and this increased expendi-
ture is, that of late we have had no accounts what-
ever from that quarter.— (Hear, hear.) Here is a district of
country in which British enterprise has been most active, in
which the establishments of our merchants have been on a
very great scale, in which besides the enjoyment of a con-
siderable present commerce there has been a very great
prospect of novel adventure of that kind in countries never
explored—for they were only recently opened to us, and
almost as immediately shut; the attention of our Govern-
ment and the resources of our navy have been particularly
addressed to this rich and this disturbed district, and I
want to know what this force, for which we are about to
vote these large sums, has done for the vindication of
our rights and the protection of our interests in those parts.
—(Hear, hear.) I asked the Noble Lord (Palmerston)
at the commencement of the session whether he would lay
On the table the instructions he had addressed to an Envoy
Extraordinary whom he had himself sent thither in order to
terminate the misconception and the disturbances, and
open these new avenues to English commercial enterprise,
but who had failed in that special mission ; but the Noble
Lord objected, because though that Envoy (Lord Howden)
had failed, there was another special mission just sent out,
and he thought the production of the instructions might pre-
vent the happy termination of the new negotiations. That
new Envoy has also failed in his attempt; but I suppose it
would be useless for me to ask for his or for the former in-
structions again, because a third special Mission since Parlia-
ment met has been sent out. Let me remind the House of
this circumstance, unprecedented in the diplomacy of any
country, that we have employed six Envoys Extraordinary
in that part of the world on missions which probably nobody
understands, for purposes which we all feel, because British
interests are greatly at stake. and there is, I believe, at this
moment not the slightest prospect of this country obtaining
any satisfaction whatever ; as far as we know, we are as dis-
tant from a termination of the matter as ever. lam obliged
to form my opinion, in the absence of any information from
the Government, ;rain that which I read in the foreign
journals of the country in question; but it is not specially
the duty of the House, in voting these immense sums, to in-
quire-how it is that the experienced Mr. Mandeville, our Mi-
nister at Buenos Ayres, received instructions which did not
attain the desired result, and was summoned back to Eng-
land; that Mr. Ouseley was sent eut on a spe-
cial mission and recalled; that the adventurous Mr.
Hood was dispatched, and the chivalric Lord Howden,
and our friend Mr. Gore, and now a
,new Minister
is at this moment on his way not to Monte Video,
but to Buenos Ayres, and there is not the slightest informa-
tion given to the. British nation by the Minister, while mer-
cantile houses of great importance are failing in consequence
of these matters not being settled 1 The expenses of six
missions have been voted by this House; surely this is a
time to ask what prospect there is of a satisfactory termina-
tion tof these negotiations—of our rights being vindicated,
and our interests being protected in that quarter ; what
amount of force we have there, whether it is of that ex-
traordinary amount. that ships that were cruising on the
coast of Africa have been sent to carry on warlike opera-
tions there? These are questions which I think her Ma-
jesty's Government ought to answer. I trust that before we
pass this vote the merchants of this country will have some
satisfactory explanation on the subject of these two block-
ades, which have occasioned them so much loss. I see, from
an official French source, that France has resolved to en-
force a most stringent blockade of Buenos Ayres instantly,
which cannot tail to have a most injurious effect on the in-
terests of our commerce. Up to a recent period, although
these blockades have been established, our merchants have