The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-23 00:00:00

The clause was then agreed to, as was also clause 7.
On clause 8 being proposed,
Mr. T. I'UNCOMBE complained that it was not suffi-
ciently retrospective in its spirit. It provided that all socie-
tie3 already in existence should be valid, provided they had
been duly and properly certified by the officer appointed for
that purpose. Now all societies that had been certified at
all ought to be made valid, and not left open to be upset in
a court of law for not having been properly certified.
Sir J. GRAHAM did not agree with the Hon. Member.
It ought still to be left open to the courts of law to decide
whether the existing rules had been complied with or not.
After a few words from Mr. HAWES,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL explained that any friendly
societies that had been established before the passing of the
Act for the purpose specified ander the four clauses under
consideration, or for any legal purpose which could be cer-
tified, and against which society there should have been no
decision in any court of law of competent jurisdiction,
should be admitted to be within the provisions of the Act,
and entitled to the benefit thereof. In consequence of the
decision of Justice Wightman the words contained in all the
former Friendly Societies' Acts which were considered—
ejusetem genais—with the societies specified under the
clauses of the present Act were constrained and narrow in
their meaning. The present Act proposed to detail the ob-
jects for which friendly societies might be established beyond
those precise and limited objects contained in the former
Acts. Any societies now existing, and instituted for pur-
poses which accorded with the decision of Justice Wight-
man, but which were not in the terms of this Act, but were
for purposes specified by the four clauses, or for any other
legal purpose which could be certified according to the fifth
clause of this Act, should be allowed the benefit of the pre-
sent Bill. The object of this Bill was to enlarge the limited
restrictions of Ole former Act, and to enable parties toi
that asso-
ciate together for other purposes than these enumerated
the former Act, and all that was required was those
purposes should be some of the specified P
the enlarged Act, and for some legal purposearoses
to be allowed
by the Attorney-General and by the SecretaryPproposed in
ot. State.
After a few words from Mr. HAW ES, which did not reach
the gallery,
Sir J. GRAHAM objected (as we understood) to any in-
terference or discussion on the; subject of the decision of
Justice Wightman. Those friendly societies which now ex-
isted would be exactly in the same condition as if this
Act were not to be passed. Whether they looked prospec-
tively, or retrospectively, he believed that the clause which
he had proposed would remedy many of the evils which at
present existed in friendly societies.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE had to hesitation in saying that if the
proposed clause were agreed to, there were no less than 4,000
friendly societies in this kingdom which were in precisely
the same condition as that of the South Shields Society, to
which allusion had been made, and which had been declared
to be illegal by Mr. Justice Wightman. From the statement
of the Right Hon. Baronet it would appear that all those
4,600 societies would now be compelled to come to him or
the Honourable and Learned Solicitor-General for what he
called the privilege of a new constitution.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM—No, no.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—WeII, then, if they did sot, they
would remain in their present condition at their own peril. The
decision of Mr. Justice Wightman had created alarm, and the
consequence was, that most of the 4,000 friendly societies had
altered their rules in accordance with that decision, and if
the law were now to be altered again they would find them-
selves still in peril. He should therefore propose that, after
the word " established" in the clause, there should be added
t to words " enrolled before the passing of this Act."
Mr. ESCOTT said, that with all respect for the decision
of Mr. Justice Wightman, he submitted that the opinion of
his Hon. and Learned Friend the Solicitor-General was quite
as much entitled to respect.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
That judgment might have been wrong; it had not yet been
appealed against, or decided in a higher court. He.should
certainly support the amendment of his Hon. Friend the
Member for } inabury.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that he was afraid that
too much importance had been attached to the decision of
Mr. Justice Wightman, but of this he was sure, that too
much importance by far had been attached to his own
opinion. In fact, he did not recollect what that
opinion was until it had been put into his hands a few
minutes previously. That opinion was offered on an isolated
case ; it might happen that the majority of the 4,000 friendly
societies in England were constituted on different principles.
With the single exception of the society declared to be il-
legal they legalised. by the present enactment, every society
which came within the description of those included in the
first four clauses. They had nothing to do with sitting in
jud,ment on the decision of Mr. Justice Wightman, and with
reference to those societies included in the sth clause; they had ,
only to come forward without expense and without inconve-
nience, and lay their rules before the two officers appointed
for the purpose, and they would at once receive from them a
certificate that the society was of such a nature as to come
within the provisions of the Act, and be legalised accordingly.
Mr. RUTHERFORD stated that the explanation of the
Learned Solicitor-General had removed many of the doubts
which he had entertained upon the subject.
Sir J. GRAHAM made some remarks, which were in-
audible
in the gallery.
M. T. DUNCOMBE said that no reason had as yet hien
assign, d why the words " or entitled" should not be intro-
duced in the clause.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL considered the 'words pre-:
posed to be introduced perfectly superfluous, and would not
at all enlarge, hut perhaps diminish, the powers of the Bill,
by creating a doubt upon the meaning of the words.
Mr: T. DUNCOMBE stated there were many societies
which were only enrolled, not established.
After a few words from Mr. Evart, the Solicitor-General,
and Mr. Rutherford, strarg3rs were ordered to withdraw;
but Mr. T. Duncombe declined pressing the House to a
division.
Mr. DUNCOMBE resumed, and said that he would alter
his phrase, and move for the iasertion of the words "or en-
rolled."
Sir J. GRAHAM thought that the insertion of these words
would entirely alter the meaning of the clause.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE conceived that the object of this Bill
ought to be to confirm all those societies which had already
been instituted and established, and he should therefore take
the sense of the Committee upon it.
Sir J. GRAHAM believed that the lion. Gentleman did
not quite understand the effect which the introduction of the
word " or" would have. It would be neither more nor less
than the illegalising of the 4,000 societies which were in
existence before the passing of the Act.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—What would be the' effect of
this measure as it now stood with respect to Mr. Tidd Pratt.
Why, it would be investing him with privileges of the most
enormous amount, and powers which no Government ought
to demit.
Mr. BICKHAM ESCOTT wished to know whether the
insertion of these words would have the effect of rendering
the 4,000 societies already in existence illegal, and of de-
priving them of the privileges which they now possessed ?
Certainly such must be the case if they were rendered illegal.
Mr. O'CONNELL said this was quite evident, that
the societies referred to were either legal or illegal. If the
former this Bill could not affect them, and if the reverse,
they could not be injured.
Mr. HAWES conceived that it ought now to be decided
-whether the words " or," or "or enrolled" were to be used.
They ought to know what they were dividing upon.
Sir J. GRAHAM. begged to be pardoned for interrupting
the Hon. Member, but he must observe that the introduction
of the word " or" would entirely change the meaning of the
whole senterce of the clause.
Mr. HAWES thought they ought to know what they were
going to divide about.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said his very object was to preserve
the legality of the societies at present in existence, and fur
this purpose he wished to include the word.
After a few words from Mr. RUTHERFORD and Sir Da
LAC)," EVANS, who both objected to any doubt being suffered
to remain respecting the sense of the clause, and from
Mr. B. ESCOTT, who again inquired whether the effect of
the alteration would be to swamp the 4,000 societies,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the observations
of his Learned Friend had been entirely misunderstood ; for
the fact was, that the effect of this clause would be to legalise
the 4,000 societies alluded to. If the Hon. Member fer
IVestrinster believed that this clause would have the con-
sequence of overruling the decision of 11. r. Justice Wightman,lie would beg to tell him that the introduction of these
words would certainly go to that end. And with regard
to the remarks of the Hon. and Learned Member for Cot k,
that these societies were either legal or illegal, he must
say, further, that, without the clause stood as
it was, it would fail to bring those societies
under the influence of the Friendly Societies' Act.
They were told that there were no less than 4,000 existing
societies, and they were called by this ingenious word "or,”
proposed by the Hen. Member for Finsbury, to legalise them
all, whether enrolled or not enrolled.—(No, no.) Ha main-
tained it was so; that all societies, whether enrolled or not,
whether established for legal or illegal purposes, would be
rendered lawful by the proposed amendment. They ought
to protect themselves against the probability of danger by
the clause as it at present stood, aid therefore he must op-
pose the motion.
. Mr. B. ESCOTT said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had not named a single society of the 4,000 referred to th..t
was illegal.
Mr. I'. DUNCOMBE replied, and said the amendment was
Lot to legalise all societies, but to give the 4,000 already
enrolled the benetit of that enactment under the proposed
Jaye. If Mr. Tidd Pratt had certified those societies, it would
be most
a fewunf airto deprive them of benellt.
words tram Sir GEoRGE STRICKLAND and Mr.
CoilirraMt
.310,‘
iftNVOUsraflitiNuty,aittn:ndmelit,
sol het 4,000
,chethou,,ogehietltife2,the bar-
rister had certified the le ahtY.
it should
be held valid in their favour.
Sir Sir J. GRAHAM considered that, as it. was possible Mr.
Tidd Pratt might have acted indiscreetly, or without prof er
inquiry or information in these enrolments, he must firmly
oppose the proposed amendment.
After a few words from Mr.SPOONER against the amend-
ment, strangers were ordered to withdraw. The House then
divided, when there appeared—
For the Amendment
Against it 42
Majority
Mr. DUNCOMBE then moved that, to the end of the clause,
the following words should be added, "provided also that
existing benefit societies, known under the name of Odd
Fellows, patriotic societies, and ethers instituted for the pur-
poses of making prevision for old age, and such other pur-
poses, shall be eligible for enrolment."
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the proviso was either
dangerous or unnecessary. They had already pronounced an
opinion that certain of these societies were illegal, and ought
not to be sanctioned, and, therefore, the proviso was unne-
cessary. There were, however, some of these societies which
came within the limits of the corresponding Act, and he
should have no objection to bring them within the provisions
of the present Bill, if the Honourable Member for Hereford
would propose a clause to that effect.
After a few words from Sir DE LACY EVANS and Mr.
SPOONER, the amendment was withd:awn, and the clime
agreed to.
On clause 9 being proposed,
Mr. SPOONER objected to the rules of a society beirg
referred for the decision of one individual without any upp el.
There was an immense deal of property and the interests of
a vast number of persons involved in this decision, and there
ought to be an appeal of some sort or other.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said such a course would be
yoductive of delay and expense; and, on the whole, he was
inclined to think the decision ought to be left to one barrister.
lie had confidence in the skill and ability of Mr. Tidd Pratt ;
and. with the assistance of the judges, he had no doubt that
gentleman Would do justice to all earties.
Mr. SPOONER said that he could not alter his opinion on
this clause.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to know if the present clause
would confirm or annul the enrolmehnatg
as notwaewraeraebizuhto
ofl Mr. Tidd Pratt ?
~,,.. ,Ae believed the Attorney-General
got
.the worst of it.
.F.l`that gentleman. He w ad a contest with
SPOONER said they
- - /Nver to one man over large and importlontgive a very great
~.- • interests.
n'-,-- --z,31-r. GRAINGER WAS of opinion that tl
`:- a great expense to the parties interested.
5:•',.. •--t
e clause would
SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that und
;-c 1 he er the dance
i 4 - •
,/,-; es would be able to:have the opiuion of the kw oface-rs
-lit he Crown without expense.
,\z. he clause was then agreed to.
----- . s Upon clause 10 been put,
..... ~ ..,_ •
l! I.;: Sir J. GRAHAM said he bad to move an amendment, or

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