The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-11 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING,- AUGUST 11, 15146.

tion, and while he pledged himself that it would be carried eut
in the least objectionable manner, he must bear his testimony
as to the forbearing way in which the late Government had
carried its provisions into effect. He would, theref re, merely
as a temporary arrangement, move that the Bill be read a
second time.

Mr. HUME said the easiest way for the Right Hon. Member
to have met the difficulty would have been to allow the Bill to
drop altogether.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
had not given the shadow of a reason for the continuance of
the Bill. He admitted that the Bill had been a failure, and
yet he asked the House to consent to the continuance of this
bad Bill for nine months longer. The only argument
used was, " I have confidence in her Majesty's Ministers," as
to the way the provisions of the Bill shall be carried into effect.
But he would not consent to place the question on that tenure,
and he considered the Government would do itself great injury
if it adopted and carried out this 1301. He had a greater re-
spect for h, r Majesty's Ministers than they had for themselves,
and be wished to save them from attempting auy further ccer-
cion. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government himself
moved that the branding clause should be expunged from the
Bill, and yet he now sought to perpetuate the measure which
he then condemned. He would advise her Majesty's Govern-
ment to drop coercion and try conciliation ; and, depend upon
it, tl.ey would find that much more advantageous for the wel-
fare and peace of Ireland. The Hon. Member concluded by
moving that the Bill be read a second time this day month.
The amendment being seconded,
Mr. SHAW denied there was any thing coercive in the Bill.
The principal clauses objected to were inoperative now—those
relating to registration and branding ; and, therefore, there
could he oo objection to acceding to the request of the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland. The course pro-
posed by the Government was the most reasonable that, under
present circumstances, could be adopted.
• Mr. BICK HAM ESCOTT said if the Bill had been
found troublesome, useless, and expensive, as asserted by the
Hon. Member, who had just sat down, he would ask where
was the necessity for re-enacting it now ? He could not
understand the motive for bringing it forward again. The
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, gave no li
reason for passing this tyrannical Bill, or why the constitutional
rights of the Irish people should be handed over to the exec t-
tive Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman trail them
three years ago, that it was the custom of the executive Go-
vernment to resort too much to their unconstitutional proceed-
ings. If that was his opinion, then, and if it was as he called
it, a tyrannical measure, why did he now, when he passed over
to the other side of the House, propose and support what he
then so violently and unhesitatirgly condemned? No man
pretending to common honesty could adopt such a course. Fur
his own part he called upon the House to reject the Bill.
Mr. MUNTZ sa'd that public men were at great discount
now, he might say that they were at Birmingham discount, 75
per cent.—(Laughter.) And he thought that the late change
which had taken place in the opinions of the men who composed
the present Government, as compared with those which they
held when they were on the other side of the House, would not
tend to raise them in the estimation of the country. He thought
he would be degrading and disgracing himself by supporting
the present Government in this measure, though he was gene-
rally in the habit of supporting them.
Mr. SHARMA N CR A WFORD condemned the Bill. He
thought that the branding system was very disgraceful ; and
entertaining as he did the views with which he formerly re-
garded it, he would vote against it.
Mr. REDHEAD YORKE would reluctantly vote against
the Government; but, to be consistent with the opinions which
he formerly expressed, he must oppose them on the present oc-
as i on .

Mr. BELLEW would vote a:ainst the Bill. The Govern-
ment were inconsistent with regard to it, and he would oppose
them.

Mr. PIGOTT supported the Bill. The Recorder for Dub-
lin had truly stated that all the mischief of the Bill was oast.
The greater portion of the arms had been registered. During
the last six months very few registers had taken place. He
called upon the House to allow the Government time to consi-
der the whole subject, as he believed that, under all the circum-
stances, such a cuurse would be most expedient.
Mr. HORSMAN said his regret at the introduction of this
Bill formerly was greatly increased on this occasion. The
members of the Government, when out of office, had opposed
this measure—had said that coercive measures had been a signal
failure, but now, vil.en in office, they not only abstained not
from such measures, but they adopted them. This was surely
infatuation; certainly it was humiliat.og to the Right Hon.
Gentlemen to uphold what they had previously opposed. He
said he could not give the measure his support.
Sir J. FERGUSON said he would certainly support the
measure.

Mr. B. ORBORNE said he could not understand the dis-
tinctions which were to he drawn in this legislation between
England and Ireland; that English people were to he allowed
to use their powder without restriction, and the Irish were not.
The Government came in with protestations of good-will to
Ireland, and a wish to destroy distinctions between that and
this country, but here, with a measure which was not be-
queathed to them, they contradicted their own previous pre-
tensions. The Bill was not bequeathed to them. The Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) hod said that the Bill was
entirely a faiitire. Why, then, he asked, should the Govern.
ment allow this Bill to remai.i on the statute-book? He would
certainly give the measure his opeosit ion.
Mr. T. DUNCOM BE thought the Noble Lord, who by
some means or other was considered the Prime Minister in that
House—( Laughter)—would have occasion to explain his
votes. He had, a few nights ago, asked the Noble Lord on
what principles he meant to carry on the Government. The
Noble Lord talked about everything except what would have
been an answer to his question, and said at last he would
carry on the Government on the principles which he had al-
ways advocated. What? Was it thus that he was to carry
out the principles advocated by him in 1843? By a measure like
this—a measure which he supposed they were to pass as a tribute
to their predecessors, whom they had turned out of office on the
principle of non-coercion for Ireland. They had turned them
out, and now the first act et the Government was an Act of
coercion. One Hon. Member had called this a piece of infatu-
ation; it was a measure which would have died of itself, arid
no one would have hoard of it. For his part, considering
what would be said in Conciliation Hall, that here another
Saxon Parliament had passed another Coercion Bill, he would
stand to th.• last in his place and oppose it.
Mr. P ROT HEROE might have, under other circumstances,
voted against the Arms Bilk, but, at present, he must support
the Government. He believed if the present Government
was thrown out there would be no chance of getting a Minis-
try so well disposed to do justice to Ireland.
Lord MORPETH claimed no gratitude for himself in rela-
tion to Ireland, as he had on various occasions proposed Arms
Bills to Parliament, but he did so on those occasions from a
pressure of necessity. The Hnn. Member ( Mr. Duncombe)
spoke very harshly in relation to the members of the Government
in voting against the coercion, and proposing the prese,t mea-
sure. Now, there was this difference in the two case; while they
objected to the plan proposed in the Coercion Sill for tran-
quillising Ireland, it did not follow that they were against all
regulations applicable to the proceedings of the people of Ire-
land. He, for one, was n,t prepared to say that Ireland
could do al:ogether without some form of an Arms Bill, and
some measure to regulate the sale of gunpowder ; and while
they objected to many of the provisions of the present Bill,
all they asked i,f the House was to continue it a little longer,
in order that the whole question might be considered, and
that a measure might be digested, which would be more in
accordance with the feelings of the people of Ireland, and cal-
culated, with the measures that might be proposed, to improve
the general condition of that country.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. SPOONER thought the proposition of the Govern-
ment a very fair and reasonable one, and it had his most un-
qualified approbation.
Lord JOE-IN RUSSELL rose, after the various attacks
made on him by Hon. Members, to occupy the House a short
time as to his consistency, and as to the provisions of the Bill.
Now, in preparing the present Bill, he had only one of two
courses left him to pursue—either to propose the Bill as it stood,
or to throw it out altogether. Had he dons the latter, he
would have acted more inconsistently than he had done in bring-
ing forward the proposition for the continuance of the measure.
When the measure was previously before the House, the Bill
submitted contained two parts ; one providing for the regis-
tration of arms, and the other had relation to the sale and
transfer of gunpowder. There were two main objects sought
to be obtained by the Bill, and he gave them his
support in 1843, reserving to himself the right of proposing
amendments when in Committee. It was, therefore, perfectly
consistent in him now to support what he oid in 1843, and for
ten years before. He, therefore, in 1843, voted for the Bill
going into Committee, and when-in Committee, he otjecied to
the branding clause, though even that clause was not so tyran-
nical as represented to be. He was defeated in his attempt to
improve the Bill in Committee, and, in consequence. he aban-
doned all further opposition to the progress of the measure.
He had now, therefore, to choose between a continuance of the
Bill, containing, he admitted, certain very objectionable
clauses, and giving it up altogether. He adhered to the former
course, as he did not think the power conferred by the Bill
should be entirely taken away From all the consideration he
had given the subject, he was not prepared to take upon him pelf
the responsibility of abandoning the measure altogether. If
there was any particular objection to the clauses, as they were
now on the second reading, why not reserve their opposition till
they went into Comtnittee, when the obnoxious clauses might
be considered. He believed that without this Bill, life and
property would not be safe next winter in Ireland, and, believ-
ing that, he could not shrink from his duty in proposing the
second reading of the Bill. Should the House reject the Bill,
he felt persuaded that many of these degraded characters,
whose proceedings they read of in the Irish papers, would
think they had an impunity to do what crimes they ileased.
An Hon. 3110111EK—Then the Bill is to be permanent in
that case.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not say that it would be per-
manent on that account. What he meant was that the sud-
den withdrawal of the Bill would have the effect he
stet d on the minds of those unhappy creatures.
He was ready to incur all the unpopularity which the proposal
of this measure might entail on the present Government. but
a regard for the necessities of Ireland required that he should
propels its temporary continuance. He should be very glad
when the time for altering the Bill came, but at present he
hoped the House would sanction the course which the Go-
vernment proposed to pursue.
Lord SEYMOUR would vote for the Bill if the Noble
Lord tJohn Russell) would promise to expunge the clauses to
which he objected when he sat on the other side of the House.
.Mr. MILDMAY came down to the House to support the
Bill, but in consequence of the arguments brought forward by
the Treasury Bench in support of the measure he was deter-
mined to oppose it. The Noble Lord, the Member for the
West Riding of Yorkshire, said that there was no time to
consider the Bill with a view to its alteration; and ct. that
account tht ught it would be better to propose its temporary
continuance. As, however, the Government themselves
thought the measure ebjne.tionable—(Laughter)—he could not
sanction the course pursued by the Government with regard
to it.
Mr. GOULBURN would support the Bill. The late Go-
vernment had thought the present Bill necessary, and as he
considered the same circumstance which called for the Bill
still existed, he would support the Government.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in reply to the Hon. Member behind
him ( Lord Seymour), had no objection to accede to the ex-
punging of the objectionable clauses.
Mr. WAWN would oppose the Bill, and he believed the
conduct of the Government with regard to the measure most
inconsistent.

Mr. COLLETT thought the Bill uncalled for, unneceszary,
inapplicable, and ineffic.aious. The Noble Ltrd frequently ob-
jected to the sliding-scale of the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth ; he had, however, followed that
Right Hon. Gentleman with regard to flogging in the army,
which he proposed to continue during the life of the Duke of
Wellington—(Laughter)—and he now proposed to try the
sliding scale with regard to the present measure. He would,
therefore, oppose the second reading of this Bill.
Colonel SIBTHORP would adopt the same course now
as he did when the Bill was last before the House. He would
never support a truckling Government. If a stringent
measure was considered necessary, why not at onee bring in a
c°erel
110 mßUslle
The then divided, when there appeared,
For the ameornredieitmuyeesinntetdf...,.thuart 23
:.• •
*of:, ...... •" • •
Againtt it
he
56
M. ESCOTMV
printed. former Bill 9.--ho3u3id be
Lord JOHN RUSSELL consented,
Mr. T. DUNCONIBE said it was generally understood tEa'
certain objectionable clauses were to be emitted ; in delseft they
vrertz.
al
votes had been given the Noble Lordoiallen that ground.
little
o
nd. I
were excluded, be would give the Gwrwn

bie. He hoped, and he saw no reason against it, that Ireland
and England would be governed on equal principles. How-
ever, the Noble Lord had nut yet said lie atonicl exclude. those
clauses ; he had merely said to the Hon. 'Member Opposite, that
he would take it into consideration. But all knew what that
meant.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the question proposed wi.s a d f -
cult une, and it might require consideration ; but he would con-
sent to the exclusion of the clauces question.
Mr. HUME said if he had heard the same from the Noble
Lord sooner. be would not have divided the House on the
subject.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted on Monday next.
FORMS (ASSESSED TAXES) BILL.
This Bill wan read a third time and passed.
PUBLIC WORKS (ADVANCES) BILL.
The report on this Bill was brought up and agreed to.
CONSTABULARY (IRELAND) BILL.

The report on this Bill was brought up.
WILLIAMS' could not agree to the mode in which the
public money was to be appropriated under this Bill.
Mr HUME objected to the charge, and felt inclined to take
the sense of the House upon it. He believed the advance of
the money would be no relief to Ireland.

Mr. CABOUCHERE defended the vote, and stated it
would cause great dissatisfaction in Ireland if the vote was
withheld.

'f be report was then received and adopted.
THE COUNTY WORKS PRESENTMENTS
(IRELAND) (N,.2) BILL.
The Report of this Bill, after a very few remarks from Mr.
Hume, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and some other Hon.
Members, was received and agreed to.
DRAINAGE OF LANDS BILL.
The report of this Bill was brought up and received, and
several additional clauses to the Bill added by way of rider
agreed to.
FLOGGING IN THE ARMY.

Mr. B. ESCOTT wished to know if the Noble Lord had any
jection to lay on the table a return of persons flogged in the
army in Great Britain and Ireland, in the years 1845 and
1846 to the end of July; specifying, 1. fhe offence. 2. The
regiment, the place of station, the time. 3. The sentence.
4. The order for its execution. 5. Whether the trials were
open to the public, or only open to the regiment, or with closed
doom 6. The number of lashes inflicted, and the day. 7.
}low soon after punishment the man was able to return to his
duty, and at what plat- he was then quartered. 5. Whether
death had followed within twelve wonths of the flogging, and
the date of such death. 9. Whether the punishment was
iiiflic!ed, if in cavalry regiments, by the ti umpeter or farriers;
if in infantry regiments, by the privates or drummers, anc
with what instrument. 10. Copies of the surgeon's minutes
of all such punishments, and any subsequent observations on
their con3equences.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he had an objection to
the motion in its prQsent
Air. 13. ESCOFT then said he would postpone it till a
future time.

SUNDAY TRADING.
Mr. lIINDLEY moved the first reading of a Bill for the
regulation of Sunday trading.
Mr. C. BERKELEY moved as an amendment that the Bill
be read a first time that day three months.
After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP, strangers
were ordered to withdraw fi,r a division. But tin re being but
four, een Members in the House, it was counted out at half-
past Twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, August 10.
The Earl of Stra FTESZU AV took his seat upon the Woolsack
at Five o'cle•;k, when several Bills were brought up and laid
upon the table.
On the motion of the Earl of CLARENDON, several Bills
received a first and second read'ng.
POOR REMOVAL BILL.

Lord ASHBURTON presented Several petitions, amongst
of hers, one from Hampshire, complaining that ihe proposed mea-
,ure, in reference to the removal of the poor, was a most imper-
fect measure, and calculated to do the greatest injury to the
petitioners.
LIVERPOOL, ORMSKIRK, AND PRESTON RA M-
IN A Y.

presented
stehlei t
ec,o, ma ppaennyt
The Earl of ST. GERMANS laid upon the table of the
House a report of a Select Committee appointed
intLontrldie
sfaretAsNalLleEgeyd to inquire
ion from a corporation of
tailors of Dublin against the Exclusive Privilege of Trading
( Ireland) Bill.
Lord CAMPI3ELL laid on the table of the House a report
from her Majesty's Commissioners of Woods and Forests with
respect to the new Houses of Parliament.
POOR REMOVAL BILL.
Lord REDESDALE presented a petition from the chair-
man, vice-chairman, and board of guardians of the Leicester
union, complaining of the inefficiency and injustice of this Bill.
SUGAR DUTIES CONTINUANCE BILL (No. 3.)
Lord CLARENDON then rose to move the first reading
of this Bill, and hoped that their Lordships would, in
accordance with the usual practice, permit the Bill
to be read a first time. It was, as their Lord-
ships were aware, customary to discourage any explana-
tion which could lead to a debate, reserving such debate
until the second reading, but after the consideration
which had been given to the measure, and that their Lordships
were prepared to discuss the measure, if he asked their
Lordships' leave to depart from that course on the p event oc-
casion, he could assure their Lordships it was from no wish
to interfere with the practice of the House, or to
establish a precedent, which, he was sure their Lordships
would always continue to sanction, and still less so be-
cause he had not, on the part of the Government,
any intention to prevent a full discussion of the
question. At the present late period of the session, it was
desirable that their should be no unavoidable delay. He
would refrain from any details on the subject, because
with those all their Lordships must be familiar, and
upon the principle of which they had already formed an opi-
nion. He trusted that those opinions might not be adverse
to this Bill, and that it might be allowed to pass without oppo-
sition. But even if he were certain of the votes which
they would give on this question, he felt that he should be
wanting in respect to their Lordships, and he should be
improperly discharging his duty, if he did not lay
before their Lordship the grounds upon which her Majesty'e
Government asked them to grant a measure which involved
considerations as various as the principles of the measure
were interesting to the country. He must, therefore, for
a short time trespass upon their indulgence wh.lst he briefly
discharged the duty which devolved upon him. The princi-
ples of the present Bill had been sanctioned by the policy of
the Government and Legislature during the last four years.
Parliament had ceased to legislate for particular interests, and
had adopted what might b-s considered, he thought, a principle
of Rational benefit ; and the system of protection, or rather non-
protection, might be looked upon as settled and, he might ven-
ture to add, for ever abolished. He would, therefore, say no more
on that part ot the subject, but content himself by expressing
his confidence, that as their Lordships had declared ultim,tely
to withdraw protection from British agriculture, that they
should not refuse to adopt the same policy towards the colonies,
and consequently not 'eject the principle of the corn-law
measure which a few weeks ago received the sanction of
their Lordships. He was further induced to feel this confidence
because he relied upon the consistency of that House, and
because he was fully assured that no political changes would
induce their Lordships to depart from the principle which,
under such circumstances, they had adopted. He also felt
this confidence, because a departure from the course he pointed
out would be injurious to the great mass of the people.
as it would prevent them from obtaining one of the first neces-
saries of life at a mederate rate. Besides the rejection of the
measure would be injurious to the revenue, and, above all, its
rejection would inflict great injury on those classes of our
fellow-countrs men with whose interests its welfare was bound
up—he meant the British consumer ; and he must
add that upon this question, to them so important,
they had exhibited the greatest moderation.--( Hear,
hear.) He included in this Colonial merchants, who call for
nothing beyond that which their countrymen here enjoyed.
From the moment when they understood that the abolition of
the corn-laws was settled here, they also understood that the time
had come when there should be no difference between sugar, the
produce of slave, and sugar the produce of free labour.—( Heer.)
But they considered that the worst thing that could happen to
them would be to leave the question in that state of uncer-
tainty which had occurred from year to year on ac-
count of the annual discussion of the subject of
the sugar duties by Parliament—a course which fre-
qtently rendered their business fruitless and devoid of
profit, because it was impossible to apply their capital and ma-
chinery to the best advantage. They looked anxiously forward
fur a final settlement of this question. They were induced to
look, in this state of things, to the great amount of dif-
ferential duties, together with all the sums paid for the eman-
cipati• n of the slaves, wh;ch had imposed upon this coun-
try 42,000,00 W. daring the last eleven or twelve years.
He would show, with reference to sugar, that Parliament had
inflicted a constant, unnecessary, and cruel injustice. Forty
years ago, when the whole population and wealth of this coun-
try was less then than at present, the consumption of sugar was
estitnatad at 301bs. by some persons and by others at 22ibs.
per head, and this was no exaggerated allowance, for the
humblest classes of this country atipresent were allowed 2211b5.
per head, and the consumption for the sailor in her Majesty's
navy was 341 b. 3ox. But, notwithstanding the in-
crease
in the wealth and population of the country,
and in the improved mode of living, the present
average amount was little more than Itilbs, per bead.
But even this gave no correct estimate of the consumption
with reference to the labouring classes. The price of the
article had made no alteration in the consumption by the rich
and middling classes, the former of whom consumed 601bs. per
head, and the latter 371b5., while the amount left to
be divided among the poorer and labouring classes
did not amount to more than 81bs. per head, or 180
per cent. below the pauper and !he convict, and
300 per cent. below that of the common sailor. In order to
show what was the power of consumption of this article, he
would tell their Lordships, from a return whish he held in his
hands, that in New South Wales the annual con-
sumption of sugar amounted to 104 pounds per head. If
their Lordships referred to any of the various tables which
had been submitted, showing the wages of the labouring man,
they would find that the allowance was not more than three
or four ounces per head per week. This might be sneered at
by the philanthropist of the negro race, and they might say
this was a necessary state of things ; but he looked upon it as a
disgrace to any Parliament that they should thus deprive, by the
existing liws, the poorer and the unprotected classes
of the country of the means of procuring an article
which, with the exception of bread, was capable of
a mere useful, nutritious, and extensive consump-
tion than any other articles imported into this country.
lie begged to call their attention to the course to be pursued in
that respect. In 1821 the duty on colonial coffee was Is., on
East India coffee Is. (id., and sin foreign coffee 10s. In 1825
the duties were 6(1., 9,1., and Is. 3d. In 1835 the duties on
colonial and East Indian coffees were equalised, and
the duty on the foreign coffee remained the same. In
1844 the duty on foreign coffee was reduced to i
std. The consumption n 1821 was seven millions of
pounds, in 1831 it was 22 millions, in 1841 it was 28 millions,
and in 1835 it was 34 millions, and the increase of revenue
was from 340,021/. to 718.000/. The consumption of tea in
1821 was 22 millions, in 1831 it was 29 millions, in 1841 it
was 3t; millions, and it, 1845 it was 44 millions. The revenue,
in 1821, was 3,200,0001, and in 1845 it was 4,800,000/. Then
they came to the consumption of suger. In 1821
it was 4,000,000 cwt., in 1831 it was 4,000,000 cwt.,
in 1841 it was 4,000,000 cwt., in 1844 it was 4,000,000
cwt., and in 1845 it was 5,000,000 cwt. The revenue
en sugar from 1823 to 1845 varied from 5,500,000/. to
3,800,000/. The price of sugar had varied very little
during the last 17 years, the lowest price being 1/. 3s.
8,1., and the highest 21. Os. bid—the population during
that period having increased four millions, and the consumption
having remained nearly stationary. Under these circum-
stances, he hoped that the House would agree with him that
the time had now arrived when these duties should be placed
on a more liberal and a firmer basis. ! bat ha I been the
object of her Majesty's Government, with a due re.
gard to the interest of the British producers,
to the exigencies of the revenue, and the wants of the people.
He trusted that he should be able to show to the House that
such an alteration would be for the benefit of the public and the
consumer. From 1841 the duty has been reduced to 14'.
The consequence had been that there was an increased
amount in the consumption of augur in this country. while,
under the former system, it could not be shown that any
advantages resulted to the planter himself, si 1 t hat the
labourer derived no advantage from the ;y stem 1. 4, ; t -
isted. He did not glow-that: s:a (is, t - ev am):

of production of the commodity. It did not appear, there-
fore, that any advantage resulted from these iliff,rential duties.
It had led to attempts at gain which were nut justified, and
the confident p edictione that were uttered at the time had
not been file-Lied. In 18:24, when Mr. Huskisson admitted
foreigu iron, it was broadly stated that every furnace in the
country would he b:own out. But what was the result ? Why
he believed the produce at that time was about 300,000 tons
a year, while now it was fully 1,8:10,000 tons. The same prin-
ciple held good with regard to the Colonists in our British West
Indies. Only let them do away with these differential duties--
only let them do away with this uncertainty respecting the
duties which are to be charged—only let there be a sufficient
assurance of the immigration of labour, and both planters and
labourers worst(' alike partake of the benefit, and would easily
accommodate themselves to the circumstances and in no way
be injured by the change. By a report which had been re-
ceived from Sir John Hawkins, which had been read in
the other House, it appeared on the representation
of the worihy Baronet that, at a meeting of the
East, India and the East India and China Association, called
expressly to consider this very question, a resolution had been
unanimously come to, that if there were a sufficient supply of
labour, the colonists would have no reason at all to apprehend
the change. It should be recollected that there was still an
advantage preserved to the colonists, and that no trifling or
insignificant advantage. The protection reserved to them
even under the new duties—( Hear, hear)—in the
first year would be equal to 50 per cent.
in the second year 43 per cent., in the third year 32 per cent.,
is the fourth year 21 per cent., and in the fifth year 10 per
cent.
Lord STANLEY—But how does that affect foreign sugars?
The Earl of CLARENDON—The duty under the present
arrangement would lie 21s. ; the colonists desired 233. 4d.
It was desirable that the price of sugar with the duty
should not be more than 455., if the consumption
were to be extended so as to ensure the benefit to
the labourer and the security of the revenue. The price of
foreign sugar on an average was 245. 4d, which, with the duty
of 23,e 3d., was about 475. 7d., being about 2s. 70.
more than the desired rate. The price cf British Colonial
sugar was, during the year, duty included, 505.; that is, 365.
for the net price, and, with the duty and clearance, making up
the rate he had just stated. But this was in some
degree owing to the deficient crops of last year.
These two sugars had found their level, and British colonial
sugar was now selling at the level price in the market.
And as to the quantity which may be expected, he was
very far from attaching any undue consequence to the
statements which had been made, but he could only say that
the statement which he now made was collected from the best
sources, and framed with the greatest care, to prevent exag-
geration. From the present time to the sth of July, 1847,
there would be about 2,000,100 cwt. ; in the second
year, about 40,000,000 cwt. in the third year,
240,00e,000 cwt.; in the fourth year, 260,000,000 cwt.;
and in the fifth year, 270,000,000 cwt. Then, with respect to
the revenue, the result would be found to be equally satisfac-
tory ; for when it is considered how necessary it is, for the
safety and honour of the country. to maintain our esta-
blishments in a proper manner, and befitting this country,
such a consideration must have great weight. The revenue of
the two successive years would be 4,e00,000/., that of the present
year was 3.800,000/ , and in the filth year it would be 5.000,000 e
He would now come to the question whether her Majesty's
Government were warranted or justified in preeceing to their
Lord.hips this measure, as far as it would affset the slave
trade.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") In the first ;dive, (said
his Lordship, with much warmth) I must beg leave
to say that I yield not to my Noble and Learned Friend, or
any man living, in abhorrence and detestation of that inhuman
practice—( Cries of " Hear, hear")—and that there is no
sacrifice, nor any risk, that I would not incur in order
to put a stop to it, if I thought that we could check this
system by perseverance in the course we have hitherto pur-
sued, and in making any alteration in our diffe-
rential duties, I would not yield to any man in
my exertions to put an end to the system. I should consider
no risk, nor no sacrifice too great for such an object, but,
at the same time, my Lords, I should require to know
the amount of success that has followed our previous policy.
—( Hear.) At the same time that we restricted the comforts of
our people and the receipts of our Exchequer, did we put an end
to this traffic in human beings? At the time we imposed our
prohibitory duties, and those privations upon our people, and
that we exposed ourselves to injury, I ask you, my Lords,
what was the result of our efforts? Could they (continued
his Lordship) after calmly and dispassionately reviewing
the past—could they say that they had succeeded in abolishing
slavery, notwithstanding all their great risks and their gseat
sacrifices, and their collisions with foreign nation+ ?
( Hear, hear.) It was notorious that during the last thirty
years they had not— not wi hstanding their unabated
energy and courage in their struggles to put down
the system —they had net, in fact, succeeded in doing
anything. He was sure their Lordships must still bear in
mind that eloquent and powerful speech which had been ad-
dreseed to their Lordships a few weeks ago by his Noble and
Learned Lord opposite (Lord Brougham) on the sub-
ject of slavery. That Noble and Learned Lord alluded,
in the course of his speech, to the great efforts
of Napoleon to put down a particular system.
hut as Napoleon had failed in that object, so had we failed in
our attempts to abolish the system of slavery. They had made
treaties with every maritime power in the world, with the view
of abolishing that system. The naval powers of this country
had been brought to bear against the system; they hail dimi-
nished their revenue, and they had imposed privations on the
people, and they had quarrelled with some of their best cus-
tomers and allies —( Hear, hear.) They had coerced the
weak, and succumbed to the powerful nations of the
world, in respect of the slavery question, and yet they
had not succeeded in their objects.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
[he Noble Lord, who at times was scarcely audible in the
gallery, then went on to say, that by returns it appeared that
seventy-five vessels engaged in the slave-trade were
misled last year. Da not let their Lordships reluse to adopt
measures now proposed, however much they might have been
committed against them, when the necessity for them was
not so great—do not let them refuse to deal as they should with
that worst of contrabands—slavery. He did not believe,
irrespective of the idle dreamers in political economy, that any
injurious result would accrue from the adoption of this mea-
sure. He did think that the means were within their grasp
of adopting a better principle with respect to free and
slave labour, because, in the first place, it did away with the
disparity between the labour of the slave and free man ; and if
protection, as their Lordships had affirmed, was injurious to
agriculture, the same arguments would apply to sugar.
—(Hear, hear. ) He did not, in saying this, state
an opinion ansupported by practical men, or a
problem which could not be easily solved, for he was affirming
that principle which practical men in India, and in this country,
were anxious to see carried out, because, it was well known
that free labour competed upon equal terms with slave labour
its all the markets of the world. The Noble Lord then referred
to a speech of a Mr. Burnett, a respec-able landowner of
Trinidad, at a great agricultural meeting in that colony, which
was attended by art immense number of elanters. at which he
said the removal of the restriction on sugar and labour was ab-
so'utely necessary in order that they might tra le unrestricted
with all the world— ( Hear)—irrespective of the colour of
the labourers by whom the sugar was produced.—( Hear. )
He would go still further, and quote the evidence of General
Plinter, and his Noble Friend opposite would see by his
statements that his fear that free labour could never be
able to compete with slave labour was groundless. (The
Noble Earl then proceeded to read an extract from
General Plinter's works, from which it appeared
that a free labourer could work for a longer period
in the field than a slave labourer.) The proprietor who em •
ploved free labour had not to sink his capital in the pur-
chase of slaves, nor had he to contend with the losses
consequent upon their death or illness. It also appeared
that coffee, indigo, and other tropical productions could be
produced in the colonies by free labour at a much less
cost than by the employment of slave-labour. It was al-o
evident that -free labour was more profitable than slave labour,
from the fact that estates in the West Indio+, worked
only by slaves, did not pay a shilling upon their capital ;
whereas, estates worked by free labour, or partially by
free labour, yielded a fair return for the capital invested.
He thought it would be far more profitable to work these estates
by free than slave labour. But the profits were not to be
derived by a system of protection. by a proprietary living at
home in their ea-e, and leaving their estates to he managed by
agent., whose interests were by no means identical with the
proprietors, but by an improved system of agriculture, by the
application of skill, capital, and machinery, which was pre-
pared to be sent from this country as soon as this question was
finally settled, and the capitalists knew what they had to do.
Then, and then only, would their colonies be able to defy the
slave trade, by underselling the slaveowner, and bring about
that state of things which nothing but the wealth and
the intelligence of this country was able to produce.
He would go further, and say that the present mo-
ment was one peculiarly favourable, and the condition
of the two great slave-dealing countries would most mates
rially assist in the experiment. The revolution
of slaves three years ago in Cuba had left a powerful impres-
sion and the greatest feeling of alarm in the minds of the white
population of Cuba, and he was convinced t hat, although their mo-
tives were different, their abhorrence of the slave-trade was at this
moms nt hardly inferior to their own. In proof of this he
would refer to communications from Beta and the Brazils, de-
ca trine- that they would rather suffer a diminution of their agri-
cultural interest titan be exposed in their lives and properties.
The consumption of sugar had, during the last few years, sin-
gularly increased in Europe. It hail taken place principally in
Busses. Along the shores of the Mediterranean ; it had taken
place in the states of the Zolverein, anti still more in the
United States of America. In the states of the Z ilverein, in
1840, there tea; introduced 30.000 tons of sugar, and in 1844,
61,000. With respect to the Visited States, he hail no ac-
counts upon which he could r, ly; hut front official documents
it appeared that in 1840 there were imported 4t3 001,090 IN. of
sugar and 15,000,01)0 lbs of molasses, while in 1844 there were
111,000,000 lbs. of ground sugar and 194,000,000 lbs. of molasses
Now, from what had taken place in the country to \vied) he
had alluded, there was a convincing proof that an increased
demand for sugar had been met by a greater consumption of
labour. It was, therefore, high time for them to make their
increased demand, which he felt assured would tend to amelio-
rate the condition of the slave. They should then be better
entitled to meet the charges that had been made against them
by foreign nations.—( Hear, hear. ) Sugar was the single ex.
ception to the maxim observed of the dealing with slave-dealing
countries, which had been Adopted universally in all other arti-
cles. It should be recollected that all the slave-growing coun-
tries were slave-dealing countries It should also be rec dieeted
that this was a measure of protection; a measure not so much to
exclude tee produce of slave-dealing countries, but to reduce
the slave trade itself. He could not understand how any ex-
ception could be made to slave dealing for one object and not
for another. If it were not so, why not object to the slave
trade of the United State:, where slavery existed in all the
meat brutal and demoralising features which it had ever exhi-
bited, and infinitely more than had ever been seen in the Bra-
zils. Yet that had been done with slave-holding America
Why, in 1835, this importation of cotton wool was 2,840,000
lbs. ; and, in 1845, it was 600,000,0001b5. Then with re-
spent to tobacco. In 1835 the importation was 25 0)0,000
lbs. ; and, in 1845, it was 39,000,000A55. We claimed
to be a more moral and religious nation than any other, and
yet we were thus indirectly encouraging the slave trade in
all its most odious forms. Why, if they were to reject this
Bill, they would be writing the most bitter and grieveus satire
against many of their late acts, and would be doine much to
y
retard the very thing which they so loudl Professed to desire.
Why should they adopt this principle with respect to sugar
and with respect to no other article which is pro lneed by
slave labour ? It was a perfect fatuity to attempt to stop the
slave trade by simply throwing a check upon sugar alone.
They' had done no such thing. They had laid a low duty in
order to increase the quantity which they received, and they
made a sacrifice of 800,0001. in order to admit this same pol-
luted cotton free. What has been the practice of this country
with regard to tobacco? Had they endeavoured to admit the
tobacco cf the United States at a lower duty than that of Cey
lon ? No ; hut they had forbidden its production, both at
home and in their colonies, in order that they might
of twelve hundred per
be enabled to lay a duty
cent. upon tobacco coming froth the slave growing states.
1 so much, and to which
Inian raaize, from which they expecte
they had made no objection, was equally cultivated by slave
labour as su,sar —( Hear, hear)—and there were a great many
other production; which were
equally laborious to be cultist Jed
as sugar ; arrow root is quite as Itborious —indigo is more labo-
rious__( Hear, hear)--rice is infinitely more destructive of
human life. Before he concluded he came to the production
of copper produce ; and first of all he would mention the cruel-
ties exercised in the productions of copper. The slaves were
y ex
a-
together in the mines, and wore o:rupu.ousl

mined, for fear of their having concealed an3thing. Within
the last few yearn they had received from 50 to 60,000 tons.
He then came to ti:e production of coffee. They would con-
sent to receive large quantities of that article, and yet they
would not receive one single ounce of sugar grown by the same
slave. We were the greatest dealers in the world in
the article of sugar, and sent out enormous quantifies
of our merchandise in exchange fir it. There were
generally in our warehouses from BJO,OOO to 1,000,000 cwta.
of this sugar, and after refining it we exported it to our other
colonies. After this—the cruelty of the slave trade-the English
people called themselves the opponents of the slave trade. It
was, however, well known that slave grown sugar was actually
admissible into this country under certain circumstances, and
he knew that it actually was admitted. He thought that he
hail succeeded in showing: that our virtue and morality con-
sisted in refusing one particular article from one particular
place, and admitting the slave grown article from other places.
Was not pi otection at the bottom of all this, and were they not
afraid that, as they themselves were producers of the article,
they would have too strong a competition ? Every cwt. cf free
labour sugar that they consumed was replaced by an equal
quantity of the slave grown article. Was it not wrong to pro-
ceed on this small fraction of a principle, and call it their mora-
lity and humanity, while they indirectly encouraged it under
these circumstances ? He asked their Lordships to give their
support to the Bill.
Lord STANLEY said that it was necessary that he should
say to his Noble Friend opposite, who had just sat down, that
tome of the observations he had made required no corrobora-
tion or contirrnat!on from him, but at the time he held
it to he his duty to commence the observations he had
to offer to their Lordships, by confirming to the fullest
extent the statement the Noble Lord made in commenc-
ing his observations. —( Hear, hear.) However unusual had
ten the course adopted in introducing the discussion, it was
adopted with the consent, and in part for the convenience, of
some Noble Lords on his side of the House. He concurred
with his Noble Friend, that it was desirable to have the
question settled, for the benefit of trade, and fur the benefit of
the pecuniary affairs of the country ; but, with the exception of
these two points, he did not agree with a single principle of his
speech, or a single doctrine which he had held out. They were
called on to come to a decision on a measure which had been
passed through the Houseof Commons in a short space of time;
and on little or no warning to adjudicate upon this important
question. The present Government had in the year 1841
been defeated on a question relative to protection, and the sub-
sequent Parliament had confirmed the opinion of the old one,
and still this same Parliament had turned round and opposed
their former opinions—on what ground ?—why. that they
might, as the Noble Lord had said, appear consistent, and not
contradict the principle which on a late decision they had come
to. Anything less called for than the present measure to com-
ply with the principles of free trade he never heard. They
had heard that prices were to he lowered, that import duties
were to he diminished The duties on the inferior articles of
tea amounted to 200 per cent. ad valorem, and thus
the superior description of tea was released at the
expense of the inferior classes of tea, the articles which the
poorer classes consumed. The duty which would be charged
on sugar would be about 14s. on what cost 305., which amounted
to 50 per cent. He considered that if the doctrine: of free
trade were introduced and carried practically into effect they
would involve the finances of the country in inexplicable confu-
siert. But then they were told that sugar was a monopoly.
What, a monopoly, in which nineteen states competed with each
other? Why, there, were only two countries in the world who
...ere excluded from the monopoly, and they, because they used
a maehiney which gave them a superiority over other countries,
and the use of which was considered by Christians as a disgrace
and a crime. He übjecte,i to the period in which the Bill was
brought forward. He objected to it on the principles of expe-
diency—on the principles of policy—on the principles of huma-
nity, and he would almost say on the principles of consistency.
There never was a measure more uncalled for than the present.
In Is4o, her Majesty's Government declared that the price of
slave-grown sugar shoudi not be taken into consideration.
At that time sugar was about 48s. 8d per cwt., exclusive of the
duty. Well, the price has fallen to 325. 6d., and the supply
has increased from 161,0 A) tons to 245,000; so that was his
answer to the necessity of this measure—that was his answer to
the sug:.r famine. His Noble Friend had gone further than he
had ever heard or believed a man could go ; in the calculation
respecting such a crop as sugar, he ventured to calculate for five
years—what few would have attempted to have done for
three. But he would ,take an opportunity befere he sat down
of refuting the Noble Lord's calculations, and showing him
the absurdity of attempting so enter into such a detail. They
had now 46,000 tons of sugar exported from the Mauritius,
from which Mr. Huskisnon said that if they ever received
10 090, he would eat it bodily; he therefore asked his is/chip
Friend upon what principles he made his calculations of the
cansumotion and supply of sugar. But he would come back
to the former point, and be would ask what was it that had
reduced the price of sugar ? It was not because they had the
stimulus of competition, but it was because they had the sti-
mulus of protection —( Hear, hear. ) The West Indies, under
the promise of protection, had increased from year to year—in
1841, from 44,000 tons; in 1842, 55.000 tons ; in 1843,
69,090 tons ; and in the present year 80,000 tons. The same
was the cane with respect to the Mauritius. In 1841 they
exported 20,000 tons; in 1826, 46,000 tons; and in the next
year it was estimated at 60,000 tons. But that would not be
th t whole of the effects of the proposed plan. It would add
the value of 51. to every ton of sugar imported from Brazil and
Cuba.—( Hear, hear.) They would, by the plan proposed, in-
crease the net profits of every slave engaged in the cultivation
of sugar to the amount of either 101. or 15/. a }ear to
his master for his services.—( Hear, hear.) And that was not
all, nor nearly all ; it would not only cause an increase in the
demand of 25,(00 tons—it would not only increase the value on
all sugar imported to 5/ per ton, but it would increase the
demand o this country, by reducing the price of the sugar, and
they must take into calculation the amount of sugar which
would consequently fail off in their own colonies in the West

Indies.—( Hear, hear.) And did their Lordships, or did any
man, believe, that after this mea-ure should come into opera-
tion the West Indian estates belonging to the people of this
country could be permanently cultivated to the same extent
and the same amount as they were cultivated and carried on at
the present moment ? The effect of this measure would be the
exportation of 10,000 or 20 000 additional slaves from the coast
of Africa. And for what purpose would those 10,010 or 20,000
additional slaves be exported from the coast of Africa? For
the very purpose of increasing the slave trade in the Brazils
and Cuba. Let their Lordships look to the gr, at expense
and loss of life to which this country had been
put with a view of preventing the traffic in the
people of Africa. He admitted, with his Noble
Friend, that our present cruisers on the coast of A frica, great
and vigorous as had been their exertions in the attempt to
extinguish that system, had been subjected to great loss of life,
but he believed at the same time, that all their exertions and
all the money expended by this country in the suppression of
slay is was but benevolence, and philanthropy misdirected.—
( Hear, hear.) Let her Majesty's Ministers speak out upon
' this question.—Cheers.) This country had already expended
21,000,000'. in purchasing the freedom of some slaves, and
yet the horrible system of shivery continued, despite their
expenditure and the gallant conduct of their cruisers. We
had ttonnd foreign countries by treaties to j do with us in the
' suppression of the slave trade, and yet her Als,jesty's Govern-
ment were actually at that moment proposing a measure which
would further the avaricous designs of tt e slave trader, and
defeat and stifle all our previous efforts in the cause of emanci•
pating the slave.— ( Hear. ) Such conduct would justly lay us
open to the charge, not simply of extreme folly, but actual
hypocrisy.—( Hear, hear,) If this measure were carried, the
Government must then withdraw their cruisers from the coast
of Africa. Who would believe, then, that this country that had
expended such enormous sums, and sacrificed so much human
blood for the extinction of the ,lave trade, would now propose
a measure actually approving of and sanctioning that very
system ? This country would, undoubtedly, become the laugh-
ing and the ridicule of every people and every nation
on the face of the earth —( Hear, hear.) They would subject
theme Ives to the contempt of every human being, as the
grossest and most absurd hypocrites, who would act so incon-
sistently and unjustly fur the purpose of saving id.
in the price of every pound of sugar, and a slight
and temporary augmentation of the revenue.—( Hear, hear.)
His Noble Friend opposite had -aid, in the course of his speech,
that he was ready to make any sacrifice for the purpose of
patting an end to the slave tra le—( Lord Clarendon, " Hear,
hear") —and the one sacrifice that he was called upon to make
was one half-penny per pound in the price of sugar.—
( Hear, hear, and laughter.) But that it appeared was too
great a sacrifice for the morality and philanthropy of the
Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.) Wh t did the very Com-
missioners of the Government themselves say on the subject of
the traffic in slaves exported from Africa? Her Majesty's
Commissioner wrote from Havannah, in the course of last year,
that there had been a considerable reducCon in the exportation
of slaves from Africa in consequence of the low price of sugar,
whi .h was occasioned by its exclusion from the British
risark,ts—( Hear, hear)—that it was net their cruisers on the
coast of Africa that had produced this effect—( Hear, hear)—
but the laws passed by the Legislature of this country, prohibit-
ing the introduction of slave-grown sugar into this country at
the same rate as the produce of free labour.—( Hear, hear.)
There was another point on which he should like to have an
answer from her Majesty's Government before he sat down.
and that was, whether they intended to remove the restrictions
and differential duties upon foreign goods? His Noble Friend
had said that they were net afraid that the West Indian
colonists would not be able to compete with slave-holders if
tree immigration was permitted. He should like to know
what sort of immigration they meant, because, at this moment,
there existed no obstacle to prevent any man from any quarter
of the world entering the West Indies as a free labourer. He
wished to know what they meant to do with the coast of
Africa, because it was from that quarter that the slave-
holders contemplated supplying themselves with slaves. He
wished to know what restrictions on immigration the Govern-
melt prepo-ed to remove. He presumed that they rid not its•
t-nd to permit the exporta• ion of slaves from the coast of Africa.
They would prohibit the slave trade, but they would encourage
all the horrors of slavery is the interior of Africa. What did
Government mean by conferring this boon of unrestricted
immigration upon the West India colonists? His Noble Friend
hail alluded to the circumstance of sugar being introduced
from the slave countries into this, and exported by the mer-
chants of this country into other countries. He ( Lord Stan-
ley) contended that by such a mode they did not encourage the
growth of a single pound of slave-grown sugar ; they were
merely the carrers of the sugar, anal had nothing whatever to
do with the coosumption of the article. The West India co-
lonies of Spain had been next alluded to by his Noble Friend,
as deriving some benefit from our treaties with Spain. Those
treaties did not apply to the merchandise of the colonies ;
they applied only to the subjects of the co onies, 'and in
that sense the court of Spain always interpreted them.
As to the treaty with Brazil, there was no provision whatever
in that treaty for the admission of sugar. He objected to the
time at which this measure was; introduced, because he believed
that it could not go forth to the country as a permanent or
wed-considered measure. He felt satisfied that although the
desire to obtain sugar at one halfpenny per pound might be
prevalent during the present free-trade mania, still the country
would not accept of such a boon by the passing of any measure
which would render useless and nugatory, or worse than useless
try thought
that,
slavery
vwenruy' dwhwe
and nugatory, all the efforts which had been made for the last
twelve years—all the sacrifices of blood and the treasures which
hail been expended to put down this accursed traffic. He
the value of slave-groWn produce in Cuba and ina _
firstti timeis
Ile would conclude by moving that the Bill be read d
ld
exhausted as
tn%tu tet increased e r
su ad
Lord-
ships' House, and at that period of the!es
had now lasted for
g
heir Lordships were by the sittings, which
eb
yt haedpilei on e2sot fp teehr
ercanoz7
unexpected decision
more than seven months, and aft-o- the
the subject a few
which was conic to by the other House
"clans he was concerned,j
that day three mont ho. But in the present state of their
niashts since, he should not, so far, at
.east.,
Lordships the trouble
give their
record that he was one of those who had en-
entertainedtent to place upon
strongest and the gravest objections to the Bill.
the
Lord should think it right to divide the
If, however, any Noble. of dividing, he would be con-
" N "vote
against the Bill. For his part he would say I o to the first
reading of this Bill.
I DEN \IAN felt it to be an imperative duty which he
Lori.
feelings than those of abhor-
House upon the question, ho should feel it his duty to
owed to those with whom he had been long connected, and to
the peop e of England, to declare his direct hostility to the prin-
ciple of this Bill, believing it would encourage and stimulate
tie trade in human beings. There was no .loubt that such
would be the necessary result of this measure. To talk of
slavery and slave trade with other
renee would be utterly impossible. The Noble Lord who
~peoe,l the debate ha,t expressed his feeling' in that manner ;
but he (Lord Denman) thought it strange that parties profess-
ing such principles should introduce a Bill calculated to pro-
mote slavery. The Government new Wight/CI to recline sugar

sine halfpenny per pound, and to increase the revenue. God
f,rhid that it should be done at the expense of the injured
arid the helpless Africans who were not represented in their
Lordslaps' House. The Noble Lord then proceeded to read
some extracts from the reolutions of the British Anti-Slavery
Society, and commented upon that porti,n of those resolutions
referting to the failure of the means which had beets adopted
on the coast of Africa for the suppression of the slave
trade. He did not think there had been any failure ; great
good had resulted from the cruisers on the coast. The Go-
vernment were now calling upon the country far power to
make an innovation upon one of the greatest schemes that had
ever been set on foot for the removal of the foulest s, igma from
the face of the earth. The proposed measure would not only
produce misery amongthe captured, but it would give an impulse
to crime in those buccaneering characters who were engaged
in this worst and foulest kind of piracy. Ile did not think the
Government could be justified in commencing this great ex-
periment of competition between free and slave labour, for it
was his opinion that, for some years at least, free labour would
be entirely driven from the market. If they multiplied slave-
grown sugar, they multiplied slavery. He could not help
thinking, before this Bill was introduced, that they should
have given the scheme of emigration, as regarded India, the
Mauritius, and other places, a fair trial. lie wished to know
whether it was intended to apply the principles of free trade
to what he believed would be a traffic in bloodshed and crime.
There was no analogy between corn and sugar, for one was
the produce of free and the other of slave lab.iur. He did not
hesitate to express his surprise at the time and manner in which
this measure was introduced.

The Marquis of LANSD )WNE said, that in the first place
it was said that this measure at the present period was intro..
duced, not for discussion, but decision--( Hear, hear I—but
he would say that her Majesty's Government would not be
doing their duty if they allowed that session to pass without
securing her Majesty's subjects an increased allowance of sugar
from this source.—( Hear, hear.) They were justified, by the
frequent discussions that had taken place on the subject, and by
the speeches that were delivered, containing arguments not
brought forward for the first time now, but such as hail been
urged again and again. The preceding measures e ere inade-
quate for their object, for he contended that, notwithstanding
the unparalleled expenditure that, hid taken pl ice, there e as left
no benefit tor any individual. In fact, there only remained
a fanciful distinction, leaving the consumer of this country
liable to the payment of a larger sum than by the ordinary
rate of trade he should be cailrd upon to pay for
the consumption of sugar. But the Noble Lord who spoke
second in deb to had said, " You should put this on the prin-
ciple of free trade, which it is not, because it will leave the
consumer liable to pay a duty of 145." But did the advocates
of free trade assert that this country ought to be left without
any revenue? All that was sought was to withdraw the stimu-
lus to monopoly. They supplied Rio Janeiro with a great por-
tion of the sugar they consumed. His Noble Friend ought to
have remembered, when lie talked of bloodshed and crime,
that English ships supplied the trade to Brazil. In the course
of the last year there were 23,889,000 tons brought from Rio
Janeiro alone. Sugar was brought from Rio Janeiro
to Russia as well as to Austria. He did contend
that they (the Government) in introducing the present
measure woule diminish slave-grown and increase free-grown
sugar. There was, as the Noble Lord opposite, from his
colonial knowledge, was aware, a disposition in Cuba against
slave-grown sugar, and in Brazil in favour of free trade in
sugar. His Noble Friend had said that there had been a great
deficiency in the West Inches in the production of sugar. All
that was wanted in that country was the introduction of effieient
machinery. Now, he could und.,rstand from unquestionable
authority thatthere was a company forming since the introduc-
tion of this measure fur the purpose of supplying the West In-
dies with machinery. Now this was done by men of good
sense, who were embarking their capital from a conviction that
they would be able to , ealise a large profit on that capital. He
did hope thot they would be enabled, with the concturence of
other countries, to put a final stop to the accursed system of the
slave trade. There was such a disposition on the part of the Bra-
zils to do so, and give a fair chance to free labour - that
labour which was becoming more fruitful year by year.
He had heard that a number of white persons had emigrated
from one of the West India Islands to the Madeiras, and there
was clearly a manifest improvement in the agriculture of the
island; and he considered that if greater facilities were given
to emigration there would not be such a demand for slave la-
bour, and consequently the present measure would not propa-
gate the slave trade. He considered that the Noble Lord
would treat the House of Gammons in a more respectful man-
ner if he varied his motion, and moved tha' the second reading
be taken this day six months.
Lord ASHBURTON said he came down to the House, quite
prepared to give his vote fier the rejection of the measure, if it
were the intention of his Friends to divide the House upon it.
The great argument by which the measure was advocated was
that of free trade, which had dropped from the clouds upon
them, and which had shown itself for the first time in Abe
present year—( Hear, hear)—and he feared they would find
the fallacy of that measure when it would be too late to re-
medy it. It hail been said by his Noble Friend that the present
measure altered the whole colonial system. He agreed in
in that statement, fir he considered it involve thi principle
of the use of their having colonies at all. What was the ob-
ject of colonies? They might have points of refuge for naval
power, such points as Malta and Gibraltar ; but the real use of
the colonies was to have an exclusive privilege of trailing with
them ; and the moment that they departed from that system
colonies ceased to be of any advantage— ( Hear hear.) If the
different:al duties were aholist ed in Canada, the gentlemen
from Manchester would find that the market for cottons, of
which they believed themselves to possess a monoply, would
be taken from them. If these principles prevailed, the whole
system would be altered, and they would weaknn every de-
fence of the country. He warned their Lordships, that those
who were pressing on these measures upon the country and
Parliament, were running the risk of seriously undermining
the prosperity of the country —( Hear hear.) They were told
that these reformers, as they were called, would give a new
impetus to the English farmer and the West India pl-nter—
that was, they expected to give an impetus by taking away the
reward which should accompany his increased exertion.
The question was, whether they would pass a Bill which would
open new sources of supply for sugar from two countries, Cuba
and Brazil, where slavery and the slave trade existed. That
was the point at issue, and that was the question that their
Lordships had to decide. He could not conceive that this
country would wish to see the continuance of the horrible
system of slavery for the purpose of saving a few vile pence in
the price of sugir. He believed that the feelings and d spesi-
tions of this country had been totally misunderstood, ant that
if they could be made to comprehend the principle of the
measure now proposed, they would treat it as they treated the
proposal niade in the year 1t441, when the same proposition
about cheap sugar. with other delusions of a similar
character, were offered to, and repudiated by them.
He should, thererore, withhold his support from this me Isere.
He felt bound to protest against the system which this measure
would establish. He also protested against the conduct of
those Noble Lords, who intended to vote in favour of this mea-
sure, merely because they did not wish to disturb the present
Government by opposing the measure.—( Hear, hear. )
Lord MONTEAGLE said, in conjunction with the Noble
Lord, he reeretted that the discussion on this measure should
have taken place at so late a period of the session. It hail been
•aid, why not postpone this measure till the next session, but he
conceived that it would have been a great dereliction of duty
had they delayed for one hour the settlement of this great
qaestion,—( Hear, hear.) After the settlement of the other
great question of tree trade, they were hound, with-
out the sliehtest delicacy, to propose this measure,
which was but a part of the question of free trade.
The parties engaged in the cultivation of sugar had already
suffered greatly from the delay which had taken place in the
settlement of this question. It had been said that the Legis-
-I,,ture had pledeed itself not to disturb the interests of those
concerned in the growth of sugar, but what had they been
d iing during the whole of , the last twenty years? They hail
been continually passim: changes, which were but the heralds
of future changes —( Hear, hear.) Then he contended that
the Government were not only justified in, but actually bound
not.to allow this session to terminate without laying before the
Legislature such a proposition as this.---( Hear, hear.) Noble
Lords who were opposed to this measure did nevertheless sup-
pert a measure in 1825 which was but the herald of
this. Even the Noble Lord himself who had just sat
down had frequently stood up in his place in Par-
liament in support of a reduction in the price of sugar. He
asked whether any one really believed that the grounds of
Noble Lords' opposition to this measure was the present state
political parties in this country ?—( Hear, hear. ) The Noble
Lord who hal just down had raised one of the largest systems
which could be raised, and which could not be discussed in a
mere parenthesis. That question referred to our colonies.
The Noble Lord had said that if we adopted this system we
were about to depart from our present colonial system ; but
that system involved mutual robbery—and were their Lordships
de:drous of continuing such a system ?—( Hear, hear.) He
contented that every colony in our possession ought to feel
grateful to the Government for this measure.—(Hear. hear. )
His Noble Friend had endeavoured to lay down a principle
that it was not right to commence a wrong, although it might
be right to continue a wrong. He (Lord Monteagle) did not
agree with his Noble Friend in that principle. He did not
think, that in a case of right and wrong, such a principle was
tenable. It had been sneered at that all these alterations were
to be made for the sake of a reduction of orse halfpenny per
pound in the price of sugar ; but a sacrifice of 800,0001. per
annum had been merle in the article of cotton for the sake of
five-eighths of a halfpenny on a former occasion. The extra•
vagance of the popes in the middle ages, in their divi-
sion of the earth into eastern an'l western portions, was not
to be compared with the egregious folly of that nation which
attempted to define, by geographical limits, the morality of the
consumption of slave grown sugar. There was only one other
part upon which he wished to call the attention of their L.rd-
ships, and that was the financial state of this country. That
might appear consola-ory to the sup, rficial thinker on the sub-
ject, but to those who took a deeper view of the subject, it
presented a most alarming appearance ; for at present there
was a most, serious deficiency, notwiths'anding the Income
Tax; and it was therefore imperative that measures of this
nature should be passed to avoid the serious consequences that
might ensue from this state of things. He thought the present
the best mode of meeting that state of things.
Lord BROUGHAM said that a fortnight since he had called
the attention, of the House to this subject, and he had waited
through all this debate to hear the answers to those statements
which he had then brought forward, but he had waited in va n.
The fact of his being unanswered, might seem to relieve him
from the necessity of making a second statement, or troub'inti
their Lordships again upon this subject. His Noble Friend
d
haul gone through all the points of his Noble Friend,s (Lmotto,
Stanley's) speech, evidently actuated by the
" Please not to touch." To take the debate on
course was
reading was the usual course, but the
li!orradseißrougham ) in-
erder the second
adopted for public convenience. But he
The Noble
troduced the question by anticipation.re a(y
of the argu-
Lord opposite had not %raiz) dhac
t introduced. He
rnents he (Lord Brougham
did adhere to his former
opinions that this measure_shoulrlhave
been brought in at a proper period, when it might be properly
discussed. It was contended that a new Government must
closething. He admitted that it was necessary for a new
Government to have something to go to the country with, and
to enjoy the residue of their days. Now, he could understand
why the Bill should be introduced for this purpose, but for
arty
other purpose he could not see why it was brought in and
gone through so speedily in the other House
love of justice they rob them of their prop er;yThrough their
and ;he Noble
Lord who opened the debate said to the unfortunate planters,
You are a set of incapables," sod therefore they must intro-
duce machinery amongst them. There were few arguments,
for it resulted from the position of parties. Sir R. Peel had
passed the Corn Bile certainly ;
but it was quite on different
grounds, and on the immutable principles of humanity. He
was prepared for changes, but he was not prepared to deal
with them. He had been for a long time in conflict with the
planters of the West Indies, and therefore he had little sym-
pathy with them. He, however, loved justice, and therefore
he could not but express his surprise when it was stated that
this nieasuse was introduced for their benefit. Now, he haul
received a letter from a valued friend, from which it appeared
that lie'had used machinery. Now there had been a great
deal of stress laid upon the fact of a company for the manu-
fscture of mach nery in the-mentre of Jamaica, which was to
work wonders ; for such a change as had taken place, in tha
opinion of the gentleman, was cited as an authority on this
subject. That gentleman no longer thought this measure op-
posed to religion, to the Bible, and to the existence, of colonies.
I here was another fact which belonged to this subject, one
which arose out of it—which was, that the West India mer-
chants have refused to send out their supplies to the planters
because they believed this measure would so injure the planters,
that they could not depend upon them for their supplies. Sir

I John Rao said that the Wevt 7tirliane had a perfect tight
protection, and that protection should be affosJed them. Them
Lord Brougham contended, that the whole arguments fa
favour of the measure begun, continued, and ended in this,
that sugar will he reduced in price, and brought within the
caprwity of purchase to the people of this country—the price
would be lowered, the quantity would be augmented. Now
might a mar, of common sense ask the Noble Lord at the
Board of Trade how opening the ports for sugar of all kinds
could increase the supply by 30,000 tons or hogsheads? Anq
how was this increase to be provided for, that was the question.
There was but one conceivable way, which was by !teens of
slavery. The execrable enormity, the greatest practical evil
which the world had ever experienced, must be admitted as as
engine for the cultivation of sugar, because the Governm!n
wished to have sugar at a halfpenny a pound cheaper. grbYt
it was said, did they take cotton, and coffee, and otherarticles:
which were slave grown? Why sugar could not be compared
with cotton and coffee; it to be sure was West India cultietat'"+
but that was all. Did gentlemen know that these negrees
were worked its a gang in a line, with the lash driving the
feeble to keep up with the strong ? The question
at presentot
was with regard to sugar, and it was no answer e
taunt him with cotton and coffee. Let them el
no
with the question of cotton and coffee to him, and ,
would deal with them ; but because one evil existed, "vase'lle
reason that another enormous one sh uld be perpetrated.
duties on cotton and coffee still c x:sted, acd that was ensile,
for him.—( Hear, hear )—and the duty made a material dqle.rh
ence. He would not point out those dreadful scenes vcniic
eto
occurred, and made it painful to think that they helenge"
the same class of men as those miscreants who were enaploylof
upon the slave trade. There was one instance in which a velee
110 tons carried 120 slaves, more than one half of whom Pert° is
in the voyage. It was ludicrous to compare the slave systeude.
carried on on the African coast with the American slave tr%e
What he was going to state with regard to the African:Jot
trade was not merely his opinion, non nuns hie sem(); Itiy,
the opinion of our own negotiator, his Right Hon. Friend the
Lushington, who had prayed him not to delay urging tivg
necessity of doing away with the arrangements for Put
down the slave trade on the coast of Africa. Dr. Lushinsgtelis
charged these who were favourable to the principles "%ice
measure. with being the accomplices of alt the tortures l•"ti„,
were inflicted on the poor negroes employed in the culticatbas
of sugar ; and it was the opinion of that high authority, obe
those individuals were as much guilty of felony as those
fitted out the vessels, &c., for the carrying on the iefle
traffic in human beings. He had now discharged a du'Y
he was most anxious to perform. He had been long ernes•
in the cause of freedom to the poor negro. It was as a (1-- a
tion of slavery, and not of slave trade, that he looked ePteee
this measure. He was told that slave labour could never let
into competition with free labour. He admitted that,
beer
that would not be the case unless two descriptions of -spice
were in the same position ; one must not have privileges
the other did not possess.—( Hear, hear.) There was an!,b
to the argument about slave labour being able to compete .etil
free unle. s they were put upon a parallel. He little th°:°,,e ey
that after all that had been done in the cause of hunisa"ree
the Legislature of this country, he should have lived to sect'. ,
day when he should ohliged to rise in his place in Par for
meet for the purpo:e of denouncing a liberal Governmen'tei
encouraging the horrible traffic in human souls. In the sera,
of Lord Chief Justice of England. the conduct of the Geceees
ment was most extraordinary and unjust. This Bill was
doubtedly a measure which would have the effect of enc,"ur,se
ing the slave trade, and as such he should certainly .
"Not con•ent" to it.
Earl GREY then rose and said that the Noble and Leatatt
Lord had complained that the speech of his Noble Friend( that
Stanley) hail not been answered, but when the results of
gold
evening's proceedings would go forth to the public, they
be able to say whether or not that speech had been anOted
—( Hear, hear.) But if it had not been answered, he te-esle
grey) would ereoutee to make an attempt to answer the sPessiel
He would apeeal to their Lordships whether the Nettlete of
Learned Lord who had just sat down had, during the "‘"°ore
the time in which he had occupied their Lordships' atteettioa
adduced one single argument against the measure.
with
of
certainly, after his usual custom, entertained them wite„-,,16t
jokes. This measure he (Earl Grey) contended would rhieps•
the whole of the British population, and ought thelr Ler°, se,
without serious arguments being brought forward agairtse.' of
jest the Bill, and thus deprive the people of this countttied.
that proper supply of cheap sugar to which they were enetteopti
Had any Noble Lord ven•ured to submit that we were t'y Ce
to exclude the use of slave-grown articles as much done
should stolen goods ? Not one had done that. ineeeetaties
of the Noble Lords opposite had admitted that such c°,l'ese•
would be an act of nothing less than Quixotic beneveLe go
They already had slave-grown coffee, &c. A few Yeneiell
the duty on the article of coffee (in the cultivation et ore,
slaves were employed) was materially reduced. Co test
too, was introduced under a minced duty at the very ti,elebioet.
the Noble and L, arned Lord himself was in the L' aeias as
But the Noble and Learned Lord ( Lord Brougham)h-st he
,
slippery as an eel ; there was no catching him ;he said ere,
knew nothing about this introduction of copper, and vet cogs
gularly sat in that House every n-ght, and must have been Tee
nisant of the whole of the proceedings.— ( Hear, bear.) e sess
effect of their reduction on the slave-grown article of ce eetietioe
an increase of 34,300,0001b5. per annum. That reuedyst
had been sanctioned by the Noble and Learned Lord, '
alsord'a
that reduction had, according to the Noble and Learned but of
argument, tended to the increase of the save trade, ;1'1,4
all these reductions on slave-grown articles, he professed a,Veie,
ignorance—he pretended to know nothing about thern•—k_f tee,
heal., and laughter. ) He had in his hand a return grind
0
porte
refined sugar, and he found that in 1845 they had ef it viss
e
273,0 cw. of refined suga and that 50,0 cwt.
sws:tee
sent tooo
t the British colonies r,
Their Lordshi0
pso shoula r
bet that 99 of that in every 100 was slave-grown regparaimea
was the rankest delusion that ever was attempted
off upon the country ; in fact those who bad I?eeery gulledetDied that
had become ashamed of it. He fully and be
teed tra 1
the measure would encourage the assing this
1,31 by Pe- rod
would endeavour to show them fe but an
measure they would go far
1 to
b their conduct
to it. He conceived, that if they Penc-aim dtee
o by it
not We
would be doing a vast injury to the `was .not
____e of
that free labour was not able to compete with layv.elwaleasour,
the anti-slavery party. He, for and entzr
his part, still I) able
language of Mr. Wilbe,force—s....ch was not the language
that free labour, properly encouraged, would be
that
to compete with slave labour. It was his opinion a
India would yet banish slavery from the market; Aria
even with regard to the West Indies, he "r
not h-dd the gloomy and desponding views whit
some gentlemen took upon the question. On the contrasts
his expectations were cheered by the knowledge of the faece.
which he hail stated. The \Vest Indians would now I'llla
what they were to encounter, and they were not so despo"_,,
as the Noble Lord ; on the contrary, they were luckily thrt-to
selves up for their tasks, nor did they fear it. Thee° r,l,:ed
would most admirably • epay their Lordships' perusal. Rse
that it was only by men, whose intelligence bad, !Rey'.
developed, who had received the truths of Christian of
that they could expect to receive the due 2°l(l' bad
labour.—( Hear, hear.) The Council of Jamaica fleece
adopted that principle, and were carrying it out hiratorf
tire. The company who was about establishing a m,aneuesaid
for machinery in Jamaica was sneered at. It had tliitteee,
that it had existed long before this measure was intrdee the
hut there was nothing in the horizon which nernslots
coming event. This measure would introduce a et,y-,enth
labour ; for it would give rise to a demand for severs' tint'oill
who were not now in existence, and who could not
exist under a state of slavery.—( Hear, hear.) HE: bthis
that there was a great number of planters ready to take, tt gassubject, anti proceed ueon it with vigour. The inte t,vtne jig
to put all parties on an equal footing. The reason to /the)
not sweep away at once these differential ditties was, they t the.
apprehended that some financial difficulty would arise: but
Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's Government Jed'
gladly avail himself of any plan by which this could be a/JTll°
Laid BROUGHAM said he had a right to eXPlait,o one
Noble Lord hail stated that his opinion on that subject "re fort
that no man woman, or child, in the country, would i'si,eerl
But it would surprise the House to learn that the Anti- Lord
Society had, selected him to present a petition to the ittiel
ships, and asked him to sign his name to one of their %tole if
The ci arge that had been made against him was° of
for he had given his assistance to his Noble Friend thew s pre-
Ripon on this question, and when the Noble Lerdeeleloet;
vented, by an accident, from attending in his place jai' teolig'i'o
the whole weight of the business fell upon him. Hens
that the Parliamentary reform being before the rj,eirB;
1831 was sufficient to occupy the attention of their Li' if this
Lord ASHBURTON said he wished to know
measure applied to shipping. h cO11:1;
Earl GREY said, that was a question embracing 9.°C,'
prehensive topics that with their Lordships' perellst-To
„,";
would decline answering the question. With resPeceesr "te
gagements, the reason of the term being fixed at adeee the.sl
that it should be of that duration which would notin tteoleetni
to break it. What they proposed was, to give ti.hreOgen::-S
Governments an opportunity of coming to an ate-eae,
satisfactory to the parties employed. That, 1100%teer
matter to be settled by the colonial authorities, Zet- ern!tnoo
to be attempted to be regulated by her Majesty's ‘l,-„Trotr-'
Lord ASHBURTON said, that taking Deese at' r ebbe of
from the colonies was a subject so important to tbetle'ntion
large that they should be acquainted with the 10
Op
Government.
- of coats

Earl GREY stated the Government would' :„, ao
propose to remove the differential duties. , _cissese'no;i he
Lord STANLEY said that under the Britisn.ol'_,e, ae bit,
uniform rate of duty wai fixed for all the col,
tnbie ca, • "
thought it right, under all the circumstances °I
nieg u"
provisions of that Bill should be adhered to. ~,, col° , had
Earl GREY said that, so far as allowing to'veronlen'
restricted competition was concerned, the 0
iei w°re
made up their mind on the subject. ht, colon • ovro
Lord STANLEY wished to know whether t ,r, their rite
1r..., L., . -.... •
to have the power of levying duties, accorow;__ uflifort'
thit
different and conflicting interests, or 7ihonetieh:r? n
of duty should he enforced upon thetc
et
Earl GREY—No Bill was no y
o
subject.
ht it too had that a 13111 on '2,,b Of
P upon
Lord STANLEY th"g brought forward after the 1
to know whether the crui'e" al
be continued.
Certainly.
pAouLr
at
,a,urns, tlt
.oaDois uEf.
wbsAj ewr_trcioit
Acrsadn.ts
Ts:
furodiem,
ht be.
Lord
EC °/1
OrdSTANLEY and Earl Cl'
the coast a
F..x.....
After a .
the su
b-iect of differential duties,
It was then arranged that the amendment ~ec "
ea Staßlel
The Bill was read a first time.
ot.
oy,no.- ~
i clog,
should be put upon the motion for the with the
instead instead of upon the first reading, in acco or u'lle
of the House, and out of courtesy to the House th
tkonREN DON '
TheEarriftiemLe at t 13111 be
Lord STANLEY „toyed t
ti,..,
kip
,t the read a second then
'Thursdayasnexant.
avvridrenrxt (00, that
Bill be read that d'a b moved,
h H was a,.
ree montus. e oU-e•
and their
objection should appyeatr on the records of the 1-1
0,,,
Several other Hilli were then forwarded
.a stage
Lordships adjourned at Half past One 0'01"• ---

-- ------- ---------
On the ith inst., at Saßnfißgraltle3,.the lady of F. D. Ilsjejb
—l.,
the a_dau.ghter
GoOidain;_trhie3iBatih,
'HI Inst. ;he wife of T. B. Kemp, Es(l.' °fa os ni pr.
ladY °
oirl.l.lautglyrd.deltou-square, the
MARRIED. iniCIO
On
ice,t
111,!q6., tll inst., at Wallasey lurch, Cheshire' Pols°,
Tor
secondri :laughterof (G)f2(.:lodliogig:e'l Nll.ll7."Sitrollid'ilevta°rrdia'airsllaLrYaddhCivueiltl,
Botts,
the 6th inst., at the Collegiate Church
:s, George, sou of James H A ek Hill, Esq., c't. N tl:6
field-street, Notts, to Georgina aYl‘'i'at. ri, daof ughter of
_.
Venerable George Wilkins, D. D., Archdlaeaco,
of Sot _3_,..,

On the 20th of June, at 1)T1----agclia.cas, South
Adams. E,q.
On the 3d inst Caroline,
0,9. a the 6th init..,
eldest dau,ht thep, Leamington, t
On thet, cr of late J. Pinherton, Ea+, of Tot c2.aLla
Paten, 4th inst. Anna Maria,. N% ire of John 1Y ilsv
n, Esq., m.p ,
!hr. Alfred America, DrYas
Oa they
llbv
Oa the 6th , 4. J.
at Brighton, Thomas Worthington, s4l't
NN ood, aged 27
~ at INewington-place, Emlin, the vile of

lathe
50.
lig
London: Printed and Published by 1111CrEDO YOUN —ewe
Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, N 0.112, Strand.AssUir•
of the Savoy, the County of Atiddleses, Tu
11 1846.