The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-17 00:00:00

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Gowernw eet would not fulfil the wishes of these who desired r thing which ceery Englishman required. The decision which
to' see a change—that there would, in fact, be no change in the ; the Committee had come to in June this year was precisely
Government, and yet his Noble Friend took upon himself to ! different to the decision: in July, 1845, when the two
make a mist groendiess insinuation against him. He took lines underwent an investigation for six weeks, ending
upon himself to state that no doubt he ( Lord Brougham) in the approval of the Caledonian Company, and he
showed, by the zeal of his defence, that he believed that the rejection of the other. He stated at the meeting that he was
Government would not go out. That statement was cheered sure the Committee were not aware. of the merits of the case,
by some Noble Lords, who knew not the facts ; it was cheered
! else the y, not have come to such an unjust decision.
by some profoundly ignorant of the transaction of the last He stated also that there was still the report to be considered
' seven years with regard to protection. both in and out of Par- when the House of Commons could be appealed to on the sub-
liament ; it was cheered by those who bad not the ! ject ; and if such reports were not to he considered in a bona
same means of knowing the facts which his Noble Friend 1 fide manner, to bring them before the House under that name
had or might have.—( Hears) His Noble Friend had not a ! would be a mockery. If this consideration was not successful,
shadow of a shade of ground for making the imputation, that reversing the derision, he said they had then the House
his( Lord ferougham's)motives in defending the measures of the of Lords to apply to, where any aristocratic witnesses
present Government arose from the knowledge that they did that might be taken would only be estimated at the intrinsic
not intend to go out of office. He would ask their Lordships value of their evidence. He stated this, because one Noble
what he had gained by taking the part lie had in aid of the Duke. who was adverse to the Dumfries line last year gave
present Government? He called upon Noble Lords who sat i evidence in its savour. this year. He said then that if justice
upon the Ministerial benches—from his Noble and Gallant was to be done, this decision must be reversed. When the
Friend the Noble Duke opposite, who knew to what he ( Lord I Committee met, they seemed to have been under the impres-
Brougham) alluded, down to the latest admitted into the sion that they were proceeding to a new trial of an old subject,
Cabinet, who knew less —to say whether his 1 and, accoldingly, the other party moved for the evidence of
defence of the present Government arose from any last year.
interested motives.—( Hear, hear.) He called upon all of An Hoer. MF.MBER here rose to explain, but was called to
them to come forth and state whether his motives in defending order.
their conduct were not of the purest kind. It was no fault of Mr. P. M. STEWART continued to say that he had his in-
theirs ; it was his own fault that he was now out of office, formation from those who were better acquainted with the de-
although he supported the present Government.—( Hear, tails than himself, and he certainly was informed that counsel
hear.) The Government was no sooner formed than he —he thought Mr. Cockburn—applied fur the evidence of last
declined, firmly, but respectfully declined, the most high and year, but it was refused by the Correnittee. What, then,
brilliant offers of emolument. This should not have been he asked, were those facts which had affected the decision of the
wrung from him, but from the imputation which had been con- Committee of last year ? There were two schemes proposing
veyed, and he believed unintentionally conveyed, in the state.. to Iroceed into Scotland by Carlisle ; these two were brought
ments of his Noble Friend. He certainly had chosen before the public—Commissioners were appointed by the Board
to be unconneeied in office, to hold no office whatever, either of Trade to investigate both of them—the very same schemes
judicial or other, under, or in connexion with, the present as were now before the llouse. 'Those Commissioners
Government, for reasons of his own—for reasons applying to having made their investigation, gave their decision in favour
his personal convenience, and from no disrespect to the mem- of the Caledonian, as the best of the two schemes. That Corn-
hers of the Government. He deemed it fit that the debate mission was appointed in 1841, but it was not till 1844 that
should not close without making this statement. His Noble subscriptions could be get up sufficient for the company pro-
Friend opptsiie, doubtless, did not mean to cast any reflection ceeding with their operations. Here lie claimed the help of the
upon his • statements, but simply that he had acted Board of Trade, for they had interfered in a most obvious
improperly in discharging his humble duty in de- manner. The Board gave their decision in favour of the Ca-
fence of the Government. Now one word more, and ledonian, because, in their opinion, there was not traffic suffi-
he had done. He had never cast any imputation cient for both lines. Both schemes, however, were now
upon the motives of the protection party ; he had merely brought before the House. He would not mention the sums
blamed them for not acting with better party motives in their expended in the contest; for he thought it would cast a slur on
attempt to defend this measure. His statement was, that that House, that public undertakings must be burdened with
there was not likely to be any change in the Government. so great a cost. The Caledonian passed both Houses last year,
Nothing could be fairer, more open, and more well-principled and on the 31st July it received the royal assent. Since
than the conduct of the protection party with respect to this then contracts had been entered into, as many as 10,090
measure.—( Hear, hear.) He once more begged to men were employed on the line, and as much as
apologise to their Lordships for not entering upon 200,0001. had been laid out, although the other scheme had
the ss. duty, but he might shortly state that he believed been put forward as not being a competing line ; .but the
that it would not operate well for the interests of the country. chairman of the Nithsdale Company said at a meeting of that
He also begged to apologise to the Noble Lord opposite for company that they might rejoice, for they had broken the
the remarks which he found himself called upon to make with back of the Caledonian at last. The map was faith-
respect to the insinuation he had made to him. fully drawn as regarded the districts through which this line
The Earl of BESBOROUGH felt himself called upon to was proposed to pass. Was there anything, he would ask
explain that the principal, perhaps the sole object of the meet- the Hon. Member, required in a map beyond showing dic-
ing at Lord John Russell's, was to consider what course should tinctly the juxta-position of the railroad ?—( Hear, hear.)
be taken with reference to the Irish Coercion Bill. Lord And as regarded the traversing of the country, and the juxta-
John Russell distinctly begged of those present at the meeting position of the railroad, he would maintain that
not unnecessarily to protract the discussion on that Bill. the map was sufficient for every purpose of that nature. It was
Lord BROUGHAM—My informant seems to have been alleged that it represented the line as too near Dumfries, and
pretty nearly correct. too far from Carlisle. The original plan of the Caledonian
Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared— was laid down by Mr. Locke, the engineer, and Annan was in-
For the amendment
Against it ...
Majority
The House then resumed. springing from the main trunk line at Carlisle, and a north
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave to sit branch near Glasgow. But what had they done ? They had
again on Friday next, awarded the construction of those branches to their opponents.
The House then adjourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock. Now he would ask the House to consider this most impor-
tant expenditure of 2,000,0091. on the construction of one
line. It had been plainly stated that there was traffic only for
one line, and that the Caledonian line was merely a Es per cent.
line with all its expenditure. The Committee appeared to have
acted in a most anti-Caledonian spirit,—a spirit for which he
' could not account. Fur a length of seventy miles there was a
strictly Caledonian line. By this fell swoop of the Committee
they had refused to give the Caledonian, for a length of seventy
miles, one single branch.—( Hear.) It hail been reported by
the Board of Trade that there was traffic only for
one line. The Caledonian had faithfully discharged
their duties. Why were they not permitted to go
on and finish their work ? And if they did not
properly carry out the spirit of their undertaking, let Parlia-
ment visit them with all the vengeance they could exercise, but
let them not pretend to say that this line was not a competitor.
He would ask them to say whether between 300,0001. and
40.1,000/. had been expended by the Caledonian Company ? He
asked whether that was the way to dispose of the public money
without any reasons being assigned ? He asserted that he was
not interested in this matter, further than being a director of
the Caledonian Company, and he was glad to be able tc afford
that information to his Hon. Friend, who appeared to feel no
sympathy for him. He had no interest in it beyond that. His
constituents and friends were strongly in favour of the line, and
last session he presented a petition from them in favour of the
Bill, but after the Legislature had given its decision in
favour of the Caledonian, all the constituents on
earth should not induce him to play so foul a part, to turn round
against those who, under the sanction of Parliament, had em-
barked their capital in the undertaking, and support their old
competitor, who, like a snake, had been lying in the grass for
the last few months. In truth, the present Bill was the same
as the one which came before the House in the last session of
l'arliament, only it was under a different name, but he trusted
the House would not allow it to pass, and at the same time
require the Caledonian proprietors to complete the task which
they authorised them to take in the last session of Parliament.
Mr. HUME wished to ask whether the Committee were
unanimous or not?
Sir W. CLAY was understood to reply that they were per-
fectly so.
Lord JAMES STEWART said it was not his intention to
have addressed the House, but after what had fallen from his
Hon. Friend the Member for tZenfrewshire, who appeared
anxious to support a huge monopoly, he felt it indispensibly
necessary to trouble the House with a few observations upon
this important Bill. His flow Friend had told the
house that the Committee upon the Caledonian Bill
sat for six week', and that at the end of that
period, after carefully consi:fering the matter, the Committee
came to the decision that time preamble to the Bill had been
proved; but his Hon. Friend carefully avoided stating that
the Committee was not unanimous in that opinion. He did not
tell the House that the Noble Lord the Member for Plymouth
was opposed to the decision of the Committee. Now, with
regard to the merits of the Bill itself, let him remind the
House, that Ayr was one of the most important counties in
Scotland,—a county which abounded in rich minerals that were
rapidly and daily becoming more and more developed; and he
had no doubt the knowledge of this fact weighed with the Corn-
mitteee in coming to this decision. The line, too, passed through
the whole of the important towns of the district who had peti-
tioned strongly in favour of the line. Most of the principal
landed proprietors were favourable to the line, and to show the
estimation in which it was held, he might mention on its being
made known that the Bill had passed it was made the subject
of a general rejoicing.
Mr. FOX MAULE said, before the House divided, he
must be allowed to say a few words upon this important
subject. He was connected with neither company,
and was only interested in obtaining the best trunk
line from 'England to the North of Scotland.
In 1839, it would be remembered, a Commission was ap-
pointed by Government to examine the county, with a view of
discovering the best trunk line from England to Scotland.
The Commission discovered, after a very careful investigation,
that the county was exceedingly poor, and that any line of
railway running through it must depend upon the through
traffic to Edinburgh and Glasgow. They were, therefore, in-
clined to think that only one line could be maintained, and they
reported what they thought would be the best and proper line.
In 1841 the line laid down by the Commissioners was adopted
by a company who enrolled themselves under the name or title
of the Caledonian Company, and in the course of time an-
oo
rt htei
trl
ec oomf
tphaen yp
Glasgow,res e nte
Duott s efrl e tso,
atohde
cc oaur
lni
st
lrey
Ru
anidl
we rayt h. e name
these schemes were considered first of all by the Board of
Trade, who came to the same opinion as the Commissioners,
that the country would not afford a sufficiency of
traffic to maintain two great trunk lines ; and they
decided that the line which ought to be selected
and adopted by Parliament was the Caledonian Railway.
The Committee, after sitting for six weeks, and taking time
most voluminous evidence, came to toe decision that theCale-
donian was a right and proper trunk line to be given to Scot-
land. They rejected the preambles of the other Bills, because
they found that the country would not admit of two railways.
In 1845, after great expense and a contest of six weeks
in the Committee of that House—he could not say how long
elsewhere—they attained their Bill. They were now employ-
ing 10,000 men on their works ; they had entered into
engagements for a million of money in their con-
tracts, and there was also a large sum for which
they were engaged. The present company was one not ori-
ginating in wild speculation. It was a bona fide company,
acting upon the faith of Parliament, entering upon their works,
and earrrying them on with the greatest possible speed. The
Caledonian Company requested to be allowed to produce be-
fore the Committee evidence of the best possible nature,
namely, the evidence given before the Committee last year ;
that application had not been granted.—( Hear, hear. )
From a report which he held in his hand, it appeared
that Mr. Sergeant Wrangharn made this application, for
some reason unknown to him. That evidence had not
been received. If the House concurred in the decision of the
Committee, the effect would be to deprive the half of Scotland
of a trunk line. He hoped, therefore, that Hon. Members
would exercise that power vested in them of reviewing the de-
cisions of their Committees. If the House consented to aban-
dont its right to do so, there was an end to the matter. He en-
treated the House to take it into their serious consideration.
He thought if such a decision was to be acted on, it would
risk the carrying out of the railway system throughout Scot-
land, and materially interfere with the application of capital.
An HON. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, spoke
in favour of the decision of the Committee on the Nithsdale
line, as it would open an imporiant mineral and agricultural
district, at present overlooked from the absence of railways.
The mineral riches of Ayrshire at present were very great,
Dt h
oe rote beingr
i3t 4e iwr oo nfur o i
dhnea furnaces sg
great
blast, and the
a tsery service
in
b r
iconnexionwith
the
oo al
and iron of the former county to the latter, and in taking back
agricultural produce to the manufacturing districts of the west.
Sir THOMAS COLEBROOKE said that on the present
question it was important that they should have before them
the grounds of the first decision on the merits of the two lines.
He did not wish to consider the question as a shareholder, but on
public grounds, and he appealed to the Chairman of the Committee
of last year, when the whole question was fully considered, to
state whether the inquiry went to show that the
country was too poor to support the two lines of rail-
way. If the fact were so, no alteration, he pre-
sumed, hid taken place since last year to justify. another
decision. 'They must, it the joint decision was the right one.
and if the Caledonian was the best to supply the general
wants of the country, support it, and reject the Nithsdale
scheme.
Mr. PARKER, as he had been appealed to, rose
to explain. It was not his intention to have
spoken on the question, but after having been so pointedly ap-
pealed to, he felt it to be his duty to rise and offer
an explanation as to the proceedings of last year.
It was perfectly true that the Committee of last year were
divided Oil this subject. The four Members for Winchester,
Cheshire, and Barnstaple joined with himof 'la
thatrk e w
r ) in
s
the opinion, that for the general
purposes
to say for local traffic—( Hear, hear ) t 1 e y considered, Scotland,P. and he
calculated to accommodate all parts of
a national line, and one
Caledonian was the best trunk
there was to be a
saw no reason why he shoul now change his opinion, that as
line.—( Hear, hear. ) ,
to consider what
they had
Caledonian line, then
population situate in the
was to become of that most important
for which dis-
the north of Scotland,
If the
therefore,
considered with respect to
last year the
Dumfries. He was sorry to be forced to say that
two lines could
tmriiontersahloodlidst,riicot
pinoiothteewfefsateot,f
bSecotland, a line
Committee came to the conclusion that these
ue thegn
h.
not exist together.—
consider it as well ad(apliteedar;ohretahreiraliffiee ofw
present sir mmstances to state the reasons of that dnetdheerirsoi
The Committee thought that they were called upon to sanction
thh
witawsoouflda
the Caledonian and reject the other, not
dfr pass,er
different
The
opinion
thought
tmemberhat
b both
hr
linesly
atsahseb
districtotuhnedy u
did
mi whouk
• could exist at the same time. The' heref we, with
Committee, t ,
the view of leaving the whole matter to another decision, con-
eluded that the decision on the branch to Dumfries sbould a be
postponed. They did not wish to sanction a scheme

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 16.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
GL ASGO W, DUMFRIES, AND CARLISLE RAILWAY.
On the motion for the further consideration of the report
on the Glasgow, Dumfrif,s, and Carlisle Railway Bill,
Mr. HOPE JOHNSTONE, moved that it be taken into
consideration upon that day six months. From the
noise that prevailed it was very difficult in Vie, gallery to
catch the precise import of the Hon. Gentleman's obser-
vations. He was understood to call the attention of the
House in the first place to the report of the Board of Trade
on the railway communication afforded by the Caledonian line.
The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read extracts from a
printed paper to the following purport :
The Caledonian Railway follows the route which, on public
grounds, was preferred by the Government Commissioners in
1841, and by the Board of Trade and Committees of both
Houses of Parliament in 1345, as giving better trunk com-
munication fur all the more important streams of traffic.'
"It was unsuccessfully opposed before all of these tribunals
by the promoters of the Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle
scheme.

' In their report of the 13th of March, 1845, the Board of
Trade stated that ' it is quite clear that the trhffic from Scot-
land to the south would not be sufficient at present to support
two competing systems; and that if the one be sanctioned,
the other, or so much of the other as directly competes with
it, must be rejected. In this point of view, the Caledonian
and the Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle linei are absolutely
inconsistent with each other.'

" The decision of last year was arrived at by the Committees
of both Houses of Parliament after the fullest inquiry, nearly
one hundred witnesses having been examined in the House of
Commons ; and it having been admitted by both parties
throughout the proceedings that the traffic was insufficient to
justify the construction of both lines.
" Thereafter the Committee on the Bill, in their report to
the House, stated—' A Report by the Board of Trade has been
referred to your Committee, and the decision of your Com-
mittee appears to be substantially in accordance with the se-
commendations contained in such report.'
" Nevertheless, the Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle scheme
has been again brought for ward this session, and the Committee
on the Bill has declared the preamble of the Bill proved,
thereby directly reversing the deliberate judgment of the Le-
gislature last session, and of the other tribunals before referred
to. They have also rejected certain branches proposed by the
Caledonian Company, for the accommodation of the lateral
traffic, on which their calculations of last year were founded,
and have thus deprived the Caledonian Company of all lateral
traffic for 70 miles of their line, Leing the portion between
Carlisle and Lanark.

" This decision, if confirmed, is calcUlated, more especially
during the present pressure on capital, to inflict serious injury
on the Caledonian Railway, which involves an expenditure of
upwards of two millions sterling, and which is new being exe-
cuted with all possible expenition, upwards of ten thousand
men being at present engaged on the works.
" Under these circumstances, the present appeal is respect-
fully made to the House, for the protection of a great national
work which was undertaken and contracted for on the faith of
the preference awarded to it by the Legislature last year, and
on the distinct understanding that the opposing scheme would
not receive the sanction of Parliament. The question is, whe-
ther the decision of the Legislature last year, or the decision
of the Committee this year, is to be sustained, the latter being
entirely inconsitent with, and subversive of the former."
It was quite impossible that the report referred to of the Board
of Trade on that Bill could not but take with the public. It
was very certain that that report was calculated to make a
great impression on the public mind. After the full inquiry
that had been made, the decision of the Committee was totally
inconsistent with the decision given by the Committee (luring
the last session, and also with the report of the Board of
Trade. He would beg to impress on the House the difficulty
of reconciling the present decision with the verdict re-
turned by the Committee last year. On the works
already in progress by the* Caledonian Railway
10,000 men had been employed, and upwards of half a million
of money had been actually expended. The Hon. Gentleman
then alluded to the speech of the chairman of the company, at
a meeting held after the decision of the Committee, in which
he remarked strongly on the proceedings of the Committee,
who, after having induced the complainants to embark their
capital, at a great risk, had deprived them, by a recent decision,
of some of their anticipated returns. The Committee in
arriving at a decision had made an election in arriving at their
verdict which had turned out to be a most unfortunate one.
He thought it right to state these things, because from
2,000,0001. to 3,000,0 tOl. had been expended by the Caledo-
nian Railway, in order to meet the wants of the very district to
accommodate which the Committee had passed another line to
its great and serious injury. He did not think it
was consonant with true policy to cansant to such
a competing scheme. On these grounds, which he feared he
had stated most imperfectly, he was unwilling, considering the
state of public business, to trespass longer on the House, and
would, therefore, conclude by moving as an amendment, that
the report be considered that day six months.
The motion having been seconded,
Sir WILLIAM CLAY said, as he was the chairman of
the Committee, the decision of whom, with respect to this Bill,
they were called upon to reverse, the House would, perhaps,
expect that he would trouble them with a very few observations
on the subject. He had the strongest impression that that House
was not the proper tribunal for trying those questions which
were remitted to Select Committees up stairs. He might,
however, be excused if he alluded briefly to a matter personal
to himself and to the other members of the Committee. The
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Renfrewshire (Mr. P. M.
Stewart), whom he saw in his place, had thought it right, at
a public meeting of the Caledonian Company, to cast very
grave imputations on the Members composing that
Committee. He had thought proper to state that
the report of the Committee was unjust, and that
if the House confirmed the report of the Committee,
that the public would withdraw all their confidence in its :
deci-
sions, and that no property would be secure while the House
was sitting, but that there was a House of Lords, where the
opinions of certain Noble Dukes and Marquises would be
taken at their intrinsic value, and where, no doubt, the
decision of the Committee would be reversed. He regretted
that the Hon. Member had so far forgotten himself as to make
such an observation, because the Members of that House had
most arduous and important duties to discharge, involving
immense interests, and it was not right that they should be
rendered more anxious and annoyed by any such painful im-
putations cast upon them, and especially when they did not
deserve them. But if there was wanted any fresh
proof of the extreme inconvenience of dis-
cussions on the decisions to which Committees of the
House had arrived, that proof he held in his hand in the shape
of a map, sent by the Caledonian Company to the members of
the Committee, in the hope of endeavouring then to reverse
their decision. This was a document which no one should
have dared to present to a Committee of the House of Com-
mons, as it was wrong in various particulars, as it made
to it, and in addition P t f
the Solway Firth termintaotaoatht
erDummisfrrieesreisnesotetaatdiooofsgsoeitnfgoruthp
shorter
whereas nerline'thein
Carlisle to Glasgow
that the line through Niththansdaiethweascnaloetdoania
real distance from Carlislewas 15
donian line
only 1251, and h t line passed this
wthoilstGlatshgeow
Nbiythstdhaeie Cawlea-s
the distance would bt,
year,
ther they should be pre-
even
byreducednstonlrl6 miles. The ques
Lion they had to consider was,
vented from acceding to the cons
had expended capital
in minstructing a line only accommodating a
grounds, because the Caledonian Railway
wtrhuection of a railway on local
There were no dissentient landowners to
tphoerNtininthosfdtahleetplirsot
jr.eicett.,
and it would intersect great mineral, agricultural, and com-
lmineeraciraelgtisirtreictetbs,y•
the
ed
wantswhether
of theyddistricts,
rwi
cet were
simply
ohnrie)fyuse to sanction
offerwhie h
that h a
• l because lines
cutomaimlwoadation, wished to have no compe •
throughCthaelierdonian
ad ,:been sanctioned by Parliament, but which did not
trafficy. competition. The
The Committee sat for fourteen
broke down with respect to
1..1m Nithsdale would interfere with it.
ful and anxious considerationui-teen days, and after the most cat e-
esifonthoenwhole evidence, they una-
nimously came to the conclusion
was required for the wants of the ditshtre' s.ubject that the line
further add that the promoters of the line had completely made
out a strong case of local traffic, and that'ittdilidenowtouinldterofnerlye
em atter in the
with the Caledonian line. Ho would leave h
hands of the House, with the firm impression tha
see the propriety of not interfering with the decisiontthey would
of the
Committee.

Air. P. M. STEWART wished to make a few observations
in explanation of the question before the House, and in refer-
ence to what he had said at a meetinX of the shareholders a
fortnight ago, and about which there was some misunderstanding.
What he stated was rather a compliment to the Committee
and the House than otherwise. He stated that he was sur.
prised at the decision of the Committee, and that if the Com-
mittee and the House understood the real state of the question
they would not agree with the decision which had been some
to, All the Caledonian Company wanted was fair play, a