The Sun.
London, England, 1848-02-15 00:00:00

- - 7 ------
.......

and the defendant, who in his person had brought 1
back the idea of the ages of chivalry, with the ex-
ception that, instead of his riding upon a large
horse, cased, like himself, in sheet iron, he tra-
velled about more comfortably in a steam-boat,
but still he had the same object ; it was the
universal redress of grievances, the succour of the
COURT OF EXCHEQUER, Feb. 14. oppressed, and the destruction of the tyrannical. But
(Trial at Bar, before Mr. Baron PARKE, Mr.
if they could in maeine the case of any buccaneer who
Baron ALDERSON, Mr. Baron ROLFE, and Mr. had gone to the coast of Africa for the purpose of
Baron PLATT.)
plunder he could not conceive of any different kind of
BURON V. DENMAN. 0
pleadinos which he would put upon the record
This important case was at length brought before than the present defendant had done. From the
the Court. The Attorney-General, the Solicitor-
imperial height to which he had been raised he had been
General, Mr. Godson, Q.C., Mr. Cockburn, Q.C., and made to plunge into all the muddy sea of the
Mr. Willes, appeared on the part of the Crown, who quirks and quibbles of a special pleader.
was the real defendant in the case. Mr. M. D. His advisers seem determined to construct the plead-
Hill, Q.C., Mr. Martin, Q.C., and Mr. Robinson, ings in such a manner as that, per faastet nefas, they
any expense.
for the plaintiff. The defendant, the Hon. Captain should be able to snatch a verdict
The Learned Counsel
Denman, took his seat by the side of the Attorney-In the first he
el then proceeded to call attention
to the various pleas of the defendant.
General.
had pleaded "not guilty," whereas it was for that
Mr. ROBINSON having opened the pleadings,
Mr. M. D. lima rose to address the jury, very act that he had been raised to the post of
and said that he did so deeply impressed with . captain
in the navy. The next plea stated that
the importance of the point at issue. For half )
lie was not ]awfully possessed of the goods
a century some of the ablest men of this
and sla. by the defendant by command of Kingves in question. A third that they were
country had been earnest and fervent in filling the captured
Siachi, which was a Spanish name for King Jack,
minds of their countrymen and the world with a
given to that personage by the sailors, and that this
hatred of negro slavery. It was not possible that
Siachi, King of the Gallinas, was at war with the
they who had been born since this system had been
defendant, who was a trader and merchant in that
agitated in the manner he had described should not
country. Another plea set forth that it was not done
come to this inquiry with their minds preoccupied
at the command of Siachi, but by command of her
upon the question. When. they recollected thatd. such
Majesty Queen Victoria. Further pleas set forth
men as Pitt, Fox, Wilberforce, Sheridan, later
that a certain treaty with Spain made the slave treaty
times Brougham, and last, though and in
illegal, and that the plaintiff, being a Spanish sub-
Denman, had exhausted the powers
had
theirn great
ject, would obtain no redress in Spain • that Gallinas
minds upon this subject—who ha brought to
w,.as
Siachi
t_he rule of an absolute monarch,' the aforesaid
its consideration and its advocacy, eloquence
=ha and lastly, that the country of the Gallinas
of every kind, arguments the most forcible, °
was. a.lawless country. The whole defence appeared
and statements so clear from time to time of the most
to be in the style rendered in a great authority, viz.,
Lludibras :
eloquence, facts, then the most. thrilling or persuasive.
eloquence, and when we consider that all which was
"I would not give with Hudibras
uttered in Parliament upon the subject was re-echoed
A straw to know the case
from pulpit to pulpit throughout the land, and pro-
Without the admirable skill
duced upon the stage, that it had occupied the To turn and manage it at will,
minds of both sexes at the great public meet- To steer and tack and veer the cause,
ings which had teen held from time to time, and Against the weather gauge of laws,
when some of them recollected that lips which And ring the changes on the case,
were tlesn silent in death had spoken to them, in Clear as the nose upon the face."
their early days of infancy and childhood, The facts of the case were as follows :—On the
of the sufferings of the negro, and the horrors of the 19th of November, 1840, Captain Denman found him-
slave
trade, and the wickedness of slavery itself, how self in the command of three vessels off Gallinas, on
could-he hope that he was addressing a jury at that the western coast of Africa, called the Wanderer of 16
moment which was enabled to give a cool and impar- guns, the Saracen and Rollo of 10 guns. Upon that
tial judgment upon the question ? But he trusted that day Captain Denman ordered the boats to be manned.
they would do their best, and that was all he asked Upon their landing at the place, he found the slaves
of them ; they would stand upon the law; they were flying from the place. The defendant entered the
there not to indulge any pleasurable emotions, but to stores, took possession of great quantities of the things;
carry into action strict, and it might be stern the gunpowder was immersed in the river, the casks
justice. The plaintiff came before them a foreigner, of spirits were started into the sand, and defendant,
unprotected, with every honest prejudice against him; with his own hands, discharged two rockets, which
but he came before them is the full confidence of set fire to the buildings upon the other side of the
British justice to lay his case before them, and to river, and they were burned to the ground; some of
demand from that justice that ,it should be decided the goods were given away to the people, as bribes,
according to law. It was necessary that he should to bring back the slaves, who, being collected, were
call their attention to the state of the-law as regarded taken on board the vessels, and from that time the
this case. At the present moment if any English- i :habitants of Gallinas had seen no more of them.
man in any part of the world engaged in the slave- The Learned Counsel went on to say that
trade, or became the owner of slaves, he became he thought some short interval should have been
amenable to the law of England, and any person being a allowed to intervene before this country should have
foreigner who might carry on the slave-trade in any part raised itself from the position of a criminal to that
of the English dominions, which extend to all regions of a judge—from the dock, to the bench. It would
of the earth, would become amenable to the law of have been far better for this country to have acted in
England, but a foreigner holding slaves in any the spirit of Milton, who said "that it was the pre-
country not belonging to her Majesty, in no part of rogotive of England to teach the nations how to
the British possessions, these slaves being on the land live," and to have allowed the same means to operate
and nut upon the sea, had no responsibility upon him, in other countries as had been successful in this, viz.,
and had no right to be interfered with by any person, reason, arguments, and religion. They would then
whether such person held command under her have done no injury. It was now admitted that
Majesty or not; whether private or public no matter, the efforts of the country to suppress the slave
such interference was contrary to law. For many trade bad been productive of the greatest evils ;
centuries this country had been the greatest slave it had multipiied the numbers and increased
dealer in the world; it had forced more human the horrors of the middle passage, and the slave
beings into the horrors of the " middle passage," might now well say, "Your hostility was dreadful to
it has caused more slaves to be overwrought to death us, your hostility covered us with evils which we had
upon their landing in America and the West Indies imagined could not be augmented, but we did not
than all the other nations upon earth put together. know the miseries of your friendship." The mor-
For two centuries and a half from the time of Eliza• tality in the "middle passage" alone had increased
beth they would find that all the exertions, all the from 9to 25 per cent. under the system now adopted
Acts of Parliament, were devoted to the subject of to put down the traffic in slaves. " Oh," exclaimed
fostering, enlarging, and protecting the traffic in Madame Roland when she ascended the scaffold, "oh,
slaves. A great deal had been said latterly about the liberty, what crimes have not been comin'tted in thy
Treaty of Utrecht, but one of the articles of that name !" The negro might say, " Oh, philanthropy,
treaty they were silent upon in which it was solemnly how much of evil have we not endured in thy name!"
stipulated between England and Spain, guaranteed This country, said the Learned Counel, stood before
by the other Powers to the treaty, that this country the other nations of the world either as the foulest
should have the monopoly of supplying the Spanish hypocrites or as lunatics. We are raising hundreds
colonies with slaves to an enormous amount. It was of thousands and millions to prevent slavery, and
this country which also forced upon the United States when our prevention was found to be no cure, then
the making of slavery a part of their institutions, which we paid those very persons whom we have been
was now the object of detestation by the enlightened chasing across the Atlantic fur the produce of the
people of this country. By the labours of great and blood of those very negroes. Such was British
good men—the gigantic labours Ist Clarkson and friendship to the slaves ! A Learned Chancellor,
Wilberforce—a great change had been wrought in who was now dead, had said in his advice to
the system before the end of the last century. his son, "Go and see with how litle wisdom
The great question of the slave trade, its lawfulness, the world is governed." If that person were
and its consonance with the Christian religion—these now to rise from the dead he would say,
matters were brought before the country and before "Go and see with what mighty folly the world is
the Parliament, and slowly and silently they have governed "—men taxing their overlaboured poor to
made their way. Twenty years, twenty-five years raise hundreds of millions to expend on treaties to
had elapsed before the seed brought forth its fruit, abolish the slave trade, and then bringing a power into
and then when in the year 1807 this traffic was sup- the field to uphold iat trade, which, without any
pressed by Act of Parliament, such was the tenderness disrespect to the power of the defendant, was tenfold
for vested rights, that two years were given to them to greater than any naval or military power could exert,
continue the traffic, in order that no portion of viz., the power of trade, a power which Napoleon
the capital engaged in the traffic should be lust. But, could not crush with all his Milan and Berlin decrees ;
although so slow and careful with regard to British and this country was now carrying on the two op-
interests in the reformation of their errors, they had posing systems at one and the same time. Against the
mot but a few years done so before they turned whole nation a writ de lunatico enquirendo ought to be
round and erected themselves into the great friends issued for persevering in such insane and preposterous
of the negro, whom for two centuries and a half they conduct. Such was the nature of the case into which
had been persecuting; and they took upon themselves the jury had to inquire ;he trusted that they would
to coerce minor and independent states into treaties for perform that duty in such a manner as the case de-
the purpose of enabling them not only to prevent the served, and that their decision would be one of the most
slave trade among their own people but in other coun- memorable acts of their life, one which upon reflec-
tries. In the year 1817 a treaty was entered into be- tion would produce, though accompanied with pre-
tween this country and Spain,afterwards rectified and sent pain, solid and permanent satisfaction.
extended by a treaty of 1835. The first of these Mariano Dinaz, a Spaniard, in the employ of the
treaties was recited in the 58th of George 111. c. 36, plaintiff, was then examined through the medium of
and the last in 6th Will. IV. c. 6, in the year 1836. an interpreter. His evidence went entirely to corro-
As the defendant relied to some extent in the pleadings borate the statement of facts made in the opening
upon those various treaties he would not now trouble speech of the Leaned Counsel.
the jury by going into the question of law upon them. Upon his cross-examination by the ATTORNEY-
Those sections, however, gave power only with regard GENERAL, he stated that King Siachi was in the
to vessels afloat with goods or slaves upon them, and habit of purchasing goods from the plaintiff, which he
authorised that the goods or slaves so captured should paid for partly in slaves and partly in money. He
be carried to some convenient port to be adjudicated did not know how many slaves plaintiff had embarked
upon for the purpose of securing an impartial inquiry. at the Gallinas during the six years lie had lived with
With respect to the legality of the slave trade, him. He had embarked but a few. The value of a
Lord Stowell had said, " that the slave trade was slave was about fifty dollars. The plaintiff had 300
not against the law of nations." The trade was slaves in his baracoons just previous to the descent
not illegal, except it was made so by Act upon them by the defendant. Sonic of them were
of Parliament in the British possessions or prisoners of war ; about twenty or twenty-five of
by some law of Spain for Spanish subjects. and so them were in chains. Among those slaves
forth, by each country legislating for itself. Sup- there were no British subjects. He knew
pose, for instance, that the defendant in this case, a woman called Tri Norman, she was not on
brought up from his childhocd with a proper feeling the premises. She did not know either John Fraser
of hostility to the practice of polygamy as prat- or John Parker. Ghindama was the capital of the
tised by the Turks, should have taken upon himself, Gallinas. The island upon which the plaintiff's
if stationed in the Levant, to take away some premises were belongs to King Siachi. He knew
of the slave wives of some great Turkish pacha, his Majesty King Siachi. He was a very old man,
No doubt such a proceeding would at the time have and confined to his bed through sickness. He
been a far more pleasant occupation than giving knew his eldest son, Prince Manna. He knew
passage to about 800 negroes ; and the voyage from the Raja's family; they were chiefs, they were
that country to Circassia or Georgia, from whence descended from an English mulatto, they were now
they came, might not have been perhaps without its quite black. There was a woman named Tri Nor-
agreeable moments, but no British commander ever man, in prison at Dombocorrohj when Capt. Denman
thought of doing so, nor would he be able to stand for came there. Witness was not there at the time. She
one momentin an English court ofjustice if the Turkish was not at Buron's. He saw Prince Manna and the
pacha should bring an action to recover the value of chiefs go to Captain Denman at Dumbocorroh.
his "'es ; or suppose, to come nearer the present Captain Denman took possession of the factories be-
case, some person had left the door of the harem open, fore he saw Prince Manna and the chiefs,
and the wives of the pacha were seen flying in all He saw Captain Denman fire a rocket from
directions upon
tII e
approach of the commander; that Dombocorroh to Coomasarie on the 21st.
then the gall" tlszdarxiral should, upon landing, find He did not see Prince Manna standing beside
the various
take the chamberspipes, untenanted, and should him at the time. He saw two or three chiefs. He
Dom-
and the grand rots
thea the handsome salvers, saw Captain Denman before he came came to
of the Turkish ladies, bocoroch at Sandhamanarrah; there were some black
and offer them tothpeople as a bribe, to prisoners of war in that village, who were in chains
bring back the wives to
proceeding be justified is any liarem—could such:a and between boards placed across the chest and back.
could the circumstance Britishf court of justice, They were taken in the war between Sandhama-
orthe Turk being a narrah and the Gallinas. Prince Manna and the
foreigner prevent his recoveringOr,
e amplel damages for Chiefs took possession of the goods ; they were
gone to China and robbed some of edefendant had given to him, he thought, by Captain Denman
the templesof their
made the
. Witness had charge of the goods of Buron at De-
gods, or gone to the sculptor who the
gods and jairoh ; he was not there the whole time. Captain
cleared his store-room of his stock of
deities. Denman was at Dombocorroh ; he went from there
There was no sin more awfully denounced to Tindoh. •
He did not go to any of the stores
which had
in Scripture, and no crime. brought down while Captain
signal visitations from Denman had possession of them. He
more frequent or more
idolatry, villages with the negroes. He saw
Divine hand, than the sin of and yet strong Captain Denman set fire
as they should feel the horror of idolatry, was there --
not put away such thoughts Chiccorab; there was no factory there ; goods
a single man who would .
the Chinese Were kept there for :the purpose of trade ; and buying
e between Chinese 1 - -
when called upon to do justice
ilendin ?In the palm-oil, Toil, ivory, gold-dust, and money for slaves.
as complaining, and the English as o
principleg had 9 the Year 1840 a ship, called the Alexander, laden
late opium case, too, of China the samef t with ivory,
had ens- She dyewood, and palm-oil, left the Gallinas.
been recognised, and the assertion o i
betweenloo was' an American vessel of 150 tons; she had
bled them to stow away in their cofferspipes of
oil, which she brought from Bshe
two
Boron;
two and three millions of Chinese silver. The brought a cargo of rice d •
an other things. When
't- Captain
Chinese Government had passed some laws prohibiDenman was at the stores there were at Mr
log the use of opium in that country ; but in the over Buron's about 200 chains and manacles kept for the. .
zeal of some Chinese Captain Denman, if there were slaves who were suspected of
running away.
such a gallant officer in the command of his Imperial Re-examined by Mr. M. D.
Brother of the Sun and Moon came beyond the
M powder, about 50 barrels,
, taken from Mr. Buron,
coast line, and seized certainvessels' opium. was thrown into the river by Captain Denman on the
This country bad said. that they had nothing
containing
- • 19th of November. On the 22d
to do with the he saw the spirits
regulations of the Chinese in their started into the sand at a place called C -
own country - they hadtaken into their amassora,
, the law
hands, they hadcarried on by Gallinas
seized' the opium,come out of their own country, and brought out. The war
farthing of he value of
they must therefore pay every interior had lasted for eight or nine years before the
This was precisely uteeof the article seized by them. arrival of Captain Denman. The war was between
case. He said, I the case with the plaintiff in this King Siachi and a "gentleman" within the clomi-
discussion of moral or not enter with you into the nions of his Majesty; it was not a rebellion, but "a
amenable to ypur laws. religiouslam questions. lam not dispute" between a gentleman and King Siachi. The
faith. You have no control notov a member of your people of the country took charge of the prisoners of
2,
is
p..ve,) ,
v,,,,
~ ,
c.,mo
~,t0 over me but such as war taken in this war by the King Siachi. He re.
, . 1 ,t,
, , ,7 ,‘,-., a t.,,',1„„,3:115i„rir'"."7).' wh;"lil'ern''rtl tl''.
s''ir''
E;7'.
TNI,.*I ~n, the Theopta 9
(~,,iiirwe" T n h- ' ''' ' ' 1
juu6l,lcLit ii, too 4.,:,.. of :Aludet:-, - .: ' I 1 C''‘e° tile --Tnln( to t-e ' . •1. whia, but the
-sort ,:-. V., 21...-.1,i-,....,.:.:iictji
ported in the 3 Barn. and Ald. 4. •
, e- tin
,p. 353, fully bore of the
. --
. •7
out that view of the case. In the e goods
present case a trial P d of the country back with them.
at bar bad been demanded on the part of the Crown,e ro Marano examined by Mr. Robinson, a na-
tive of s • '
Pun, also examined through the medium of

LAW INTELLIGENCE.
HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 14.
SQITIRES V. WHILtTEN.
The LOBD CffAxctimou, at he conclusion of the
arguments, gave judgment, dismissing the appeal
with costs.

an interpreter—He was at the Gallinas, in the '
employ of a person of the name of Xumenes in the
capacity of clerk. He knew Mr.. Buron, also his
factory and store-houses at the Gallmas. He was in
a large way of business there. He saw Buron's
store-houses shortly before the 19th of November,
when they were full of every sort of things. Upon
the 19th he saw some men land from three vessels of
war. Captain Denman was with them. He was
then in Dombocorroh. He saw them, after they
landed, place sentries upon the gates of the es-
tablishment and store-rooms of Mr. Buron.
Captain Denman then went on to Camassra,
He saw the goods of Mr. Buron in the hands of the
natives for the first time on the 22nd of November.
Captain Denman's men gave the goods to the natives.
He did not see Captain Denman give, nor was he
present when he told his men to give the things to
the natives. He saw some rockets fired. He was
not on the spot. He saw Captain Denman there and
many natives. He could not tell who fired them ; he
was too far off to see. Captain Denman was near
the spot. The rockets went to Camassra, where
it set fire to some magazines or stores filled with
merchandize belonging to Mr. Buron. The buildings
were all burnt down, and the goods they contained
which were not carried away were burned and de-
stroyed. The magazines were destroyed either on
the 22d, 23d, or 24th of November.
At. the conclusion of this witness's examination,
the case was adjourned till to-morrow.

ELECTION COMMITTEES.
GREAT YARMOUTH.

The Committee re-assembled at the usual hour yester-
day morning; Mr. Seymer in the chair.
Mr. ANDREWS, Q.C., addressed the Committee at
great length on behalf of the sitting Members.
The room was then cleared, and the Committee having
remained in consultation together for some time,
strangers were re-admitted, when,
The CHAIRMAN announced that the Committee had
come to the following resolution:—That the Hon.
Arthur Lennox, commonly called Lord Arthur Lennox,
is not duly elected a burgess to serve in the present
Parliament for the borough of Great Yarmouth
That Octavius Edward Coope, Esq., is not duly
elected a burgess to serve in Parliament for the borough
of Great Yarmouth. That the last election of the said
borough is a void election. That the Hon. Arthur
Lennox, commonly called Lord Arthur Lennox, and
Octavius Edward Coape, Esq., were, through their
agents, guilty of bribery at the last election for the
borough of Great Yarmouth. That several cases of
bribery were proved before the Committee. That these
acts of bribery were committed with the know-
ledge and consent of the said Lord Arthur Lennox and
Octavius Edward Coupe, E.g. The Committee are
of opinion from the evidence given before that
gross, systematic, and extensive bribery prevailed
at the last and at the previous election for the
borough of Yarmouth amongst the freemen of the bo-
rough, and they consider it their duty to express to the
House their unanimous opinion that the freemen of the
borough of Great Yarmouth should be disfranchised,
and that no new writ should be issued for the said
borough until legislative measures have been taken for
the purpose of such disfranaisemant.
The Committee then broke up.

LONDON, BRIGHTON, and SOUTH

COAST RAILWAY COMPANY.

The adjourned meeting of this company was held
yesterday morning,at eleven o'clock, in.the large'room of
the London Tavern. Owing to the statement made
at the meeting on Friday, that a vast number of per-
sons had gained access to the room who were not
shareholders, the most stringent regulations were
instituted and put in force at the door, and lest any
person refused admission should become re-
fractory, a policeman was stationed at the
door to keep order, and if necessary to
remove any disorderlies to the nearest station-house.
Every person, even those connested with the press,
were obliged to sign their names, the reporters being
strictly enjoined to give the name of the paper fur
which they attended. A staff of clerks were therefore
employed during the morning. Before half-past ten
about 200 persons had taken their seats, and when
the reporters came, full half .an hour before the
hour for which the meeting was announced, they
found nearly all the seats usually reserved for the
press occupied by shareholders, and it was only with
great difficulty and solicitation that those represent-
ing the principal papers were enabled to obtain just
sufficient room to pursue their avocations with in-
convenience. The inconvenience to which all were
put was wholly inexcusable, inasmuch as a represen-
tation was made to the secretary on Saturday to
reserve accommodation for the press. At eleven
o'clock the directors entered and took their
seats. They were received with cheers. At
this time not more than three hundred persons
were in the room. The gallery contained but one
tenant, showing that the room used on Friday could
have contained all entitled to be present; it is impos-
sible, therefore, to avoid the inference that a very
considerable number of persons Wink present who
were not shareholders, and who created the unseemly
disturbance which led to the adjournment of the
meeting until to-day. Mr. Grenfell, M.P., occupied
the chair.

Mr. BUCKTON having read the report and accounts,
which we gave in The Sun of Friday,
The CHAIRMAN proceeded to address the meeting.
He said, in consequence of what passed at the meeting
on Friday, it was not his intention to detain them at
any length, as he concluded from what then took place
that some strong grounds of opposition were to be
raised against the directors, and he and his brother di-
rectors therefore courted the utmost inquiry, as he and
they were most anxious that no one should leave the
room without being fully informed of the exact posi-
tion of their affairs. Without saying more at present
he would conclude by moving. that the report be re-
ceived and adopted, which having been seconded,
Mr. WISHAW rose and said, he had a motion to
propose, which he believed would meet the wishes of
all the shareholders, the majority of whom were dis-
satisfied with the management of the directors. Their
shares were depreciated, their weekly expenses were
still high, their capital remained at its enormously
high rate, and at the last meeting he apprehended
that the dividend would be small indeed. Their
amount of expenses were enormous, as they increased
from 31 in 1844, and now 48. The locomotive
expenses were alsao enormous; the cost of coke in
1844 was 10,0001.—it was last year 19,5431. This
was at the rate of bid. a mile, but on an adjacent
line it cost nu more than 4d., and the working ex-
penses of other lines averaged from 35 to 42 per
cent. He blamed the directors for gradually increas-
ing the capital of the company to an enormous rate.
It was 8,092,0001., in 1845, 4,922,0001., in 1846,
and in 1847 it was 6,760,3831.—(Hear,
hear)—and yet there was a deficiency of
78,7411. in the capital account. He also blamed
them for entering into the arrangements they had with
the Portsmouth Company, for the purpose of carrying a
third line into Portsmouth, which must compete with
the South-Western and their own line. He blamed
them also for entering into an arrangement with the
South Eastern, by which they would lose 12,000/. a
year, and obtain but a few acres of land in return.
He found that the mismanagement of the directors
was in all men's mouths; and when this was the case,
he could not help saying that there must be something
in the management radically wrong. —(Cheers.) The
incompetency of the directors was generally spoken of
and complained of. Stations had been shut up with-
out any sufficient reason, and meetings bad been held
at various parts of the line, at which complaints were
made that the line did not give all the accommodation
the parties had a right to expect. Persons hdd also
been dismissed from the company without sufficient
cause. With a view to the promotion of the interests
of the company, he begged to move, as an amend-
ment, that so much of the report as related to the
dividend be adopted, and that a committee of share-
holders be appointed to inquire into the financial
affairs of the company, and report thereon.—(Cheers.)
Mr. FLOOD seconded the motion, and, after advert-
ing to the past dividends that had been paid, com-
plained that if the expenses were so high the rates
ought to have been increased.
The CHAIRMAN interrupted the Hon. Proprietor,
and stated that their fares were at their maximum—
(Hear). The Legislature had put its hands into their
pockets and those of the shareholders of other lines,
and, for the information of all, he might state that
the time was not far distant when railways might have
occasion to make common cause against this restric-
tion.—(Hear.)
Mr. FLOOD proceeded to say that if this were so
the directors should have abandoned the branches.—
(Hear.) He was utterly at a loss to understand how
the working expenses could present so anomalous a
result as they did; in 1843 they were 261 per cent.,
in 1844 23, 1845 24, 1846 29, whilst now they were
40: they were 40 per cent., aN ith a capital of
a quarter of a million, whilst they were but
26, with a capital of 100,0001.—(Hear.) The
Hon. Proprietor went on to explain the exact
nature of the mortgage deeds; which led to some
explanations between himself and Mr. PARSONS, at
the protracted nature of the details of which ...the
meeting manifested much impatience. 1- •
The CHAIRMAN said, all these things were .. are
matters of detail, which could not be answered vt.
out the expenditure of much time. They cou4be
better investigated by a committee ; and on the kart
of the directors and himself he had to state, that ey
should not object to the proposed committee, which
announcement was received with loud cheers.

Mr. LEVY congratulated the directors on the tone
and temper of the meeting. The great complaints
received against the directors were the purchasing of
the Brighton, and Chichester and Brighton, at 12
premium, when no one would have given 5 discount,
and that theylvo, put a good 'led of money into
their pockets by these arrang,etnents.—(Laughter.)
Mc, flit say this; o'%ers said it, and he
merely repeated it.—(Hear.) He did not wish to
abuse the directors because they were directors, be-
cause if they turned them out, they might get worse,

II: some

THE SUN 4 .SON DON, TITFADAT EVEN EISIG FEBRUARY 15, 184 S

who would perhaps take some new and objectionable
course.—(Hear.) Looting at the castigation—par-
ticularly from the Atmospheric (Croydon)—they had
received from the lines he had mentioned, he thought
20s. was not so bad. Let them not be dis-
mayed.—(A voice, You don't say anything
about the Croydon.") He liked to be challenged ;
he, like Mr. Wishaers, was a great advocate of an
amalgamation with that line; he had always opposed
the Epsom branch; but he might take that oppor-
tunity of saying, that all the branches of which he
had spoken at past meetings had turned out as he
had predicted. Looking at the ccmmercial embar-
rassments of the past year, and to the great expense
they had been put to, he thought they should take
the 20s. without a murmur.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MAKINS said he had received a note from the
Chairman sometime ago, stating that the dividend
this half-year would be 7i per cent. ; and
that on this promise he kept his shares.
When they want down, and when he remonstrated
with the Chairman, he replied that he had expected
73- per cent., adding that he had been as much disap-
pointed as he had at not being able to pay more. He
complained that he had only been able to obtain
access to the r egister of shares, by a favour and in
confidence, and in order that access might at all times
be obtained to it, he begged to move that holders of
25 shares and upwards should have access to the
registers seven days before and seven days after each
meeting at ss. for every hour he required it.
Mr. Cesh seconded the proposition.
The CHAIRMAN said he had been almost forced into
the direction; lie took office much against his will ;
and he believed that during the whole time he had
been connected: with the company he had never done
anything that an honest man could blush at.—
(hear.) Surely he could not be now held responsible
for an opinion given twelve months ago.—(Hear,
hear.) If he had disposed of some of his shares, he
had not done so for stock-jobbing purposes. Surely
he could not be blamed for that—(Hear, hear)
but he might say that the deputy-chairman held
more shares than he did at any former time (and
that gentleman, he might say, devoted his life to
the service of the company). They all held
within 10,000 of the number of shares held by
them last year. Great injury might result from
giving too great access to their books. For instance
the greater number of forgeries on the Bank of Eng-
land had been perpetrated by parties getting access
to their books; :for a person by getting a view of one
share got a clue to all those held by the same person.
Mr. SONSTER reminded the meeting that they were
obliged to run their trains whether full or empty,
and that the expenses incidental to the opening of
all new lines were enormous. He was firmly of
opinion that the time was not far distant when they
would pay seven per cent. again.—(Hear, and No,
no.) On an average of the entire line opened the
weekly expenses were 5781. less last year than in
1845 • and if they multiplied that by the miles
opened in 1845, they would, at the same rate, have an
increase of 300,000/. in the next year.—(Hear.)
Mr. COHEN complained that the fares had been re•
duced from 25 to 50 per cent. In giving increased
public advantage they had injured themselves. He
moved for a return of the, names of the parties who
held shares in the Brighton and Chichester line be-
fore it was purchased, and those to whom they were
transferred. They bought up the shares at 11. or 21.
premium, and sold them at 2.5/. premium. It was
rented by the Brighton at 4 per cent. for ten
years, and he asked, therefore, why they
bought it at 6/. ? He blamed them for
their connexion with the Portsmouth and Croydon,
after it had wasted half its capital, and for which
they got the miserable line to Epsom ; the cost of
plants during the last half-year was 162,0001., or
one-half more than any former year. The fares had
been generally reduced, and if they went on the same
way they would have no dividend. There was a loss
of 3501. for light gold, giving encouragement for its
being offered to the company. There was one thing
he wished to have inquired into, namely, the giving of
information by the company to the Stock Exchange
with respect to the dividend. He knew the parties.
—(.` Name, name.") He should be ready to give the
names to the committee. The shares had been raised
to 315., when they could not expect a higher
dividend than 32s.—(Hear.) When the real amount
was known the shares were poured into the market.
The information must have come from head-quarters.
—(Hear.) He hoped the directors would inquire
into the matter, and rather dismiss the whole office
than allow any such persons to remain in it. He
was at a loss to know how the directors could adopt
new lines when Parliament had fixed their maximum
fares so low that they could not pay 81. per cent.
The CHAIRMAN said Mr. Cohen should give the
names of the parties to whOM he referred.
Mr. CoHEN declined to do so, except to the com-
mittee. He did not charge the directors with the
" bearing" of the shares; he could not well do that;
if they did buy at 315., they did it through third
parties. Directors were too cunning now-a-days to
do these things openly. He considered that their
interests would not be cared for until they removed
the present directors.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. COLEMAN inquired if 13,000/. had been lent to
the Steam- boat Company connected with the company.
The CHAIRMAN declined, in reply, to give any
answer to the agent of the General Stearn Navigation
Company, and who had filed a bill in Chancery
against the company.
Mr. COLEMAN then said, as some of the new lines
had not been opened, the company would lose at the
rate of 1,0004 a year in interest so long as they
remained unopened.
Mr. PARSONS said, as it had been whispered that he
had given information to his brother and others with
respect to the dividend, he wished to have a letter
from his brother read on the subject.
The SECRETARY read the letter, which was as fol-
lows :••••

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 14.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack shortly after Five o'clock.
The Earl of EGLINTON presented petitions from
Arbroath and Ayr, praying for an alteration in the
currency laws.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented certain
papers by command of her Majesty.
The Bishop of EXETER gave notice that he
should, to-morrow, present a petition from certain
clergy of the county of Bucks, praying for the repeal
of the statute of Henry VIII., subjecting Deans and
Chapters to a prcemunire in certain cases.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 14.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.

(Copy)
_"22, St. James's-street, Feb: 9.

" Dear John,—The following are the facts to which
your note refers:—About a fortnight since I learnt at my
friend Hutchinson's office that Brighton dividends were
offered at the Stock Exchange at 31s. per dividend.
Recollecting that at the corresponding period of last
year 355. had been declared, and finding at the sumo
time the amount of increased receipts, and the additional
mileage since opened, I thought there were reasonable
data to anticipate an equal dividend for the past half-
year.
" I purchased in consequence four hundred dividends,
in conjunction with two friends, who took an equal Aare
in the speculation. I retain my interest entire, and shall
hence sustain a loss of about seventy guineas.
" This circumstance having transpired, most dis-
creditable inferences have been drawn from it, implying
that,l possessed a knowledge of what the dividend would
be, and that I had entered into this transaction for the
purpose of raising the price, to enable me to make spe-
culative sales. A most infamous im?utation, and so far
from the truth, that with this exception, I have not had
one transaction of any kind in Brighton shares during
my residence in London, which comprises a period of
upwards of two years.
" You can make what use you like of this note; I
write it solely out of consideration to your position at
the Brighton board as a director, otherwise I should not
take any notice of the calumny, as I know it would be
impossible to discover its author.—&c.
(Signed) " GEORGE PARSONS."
" J. M. Parsons, Esq."

Mr. PARSONS said he would as soon put a pistol to
a man's head on the highway as inform any one of
the amount of dividend before it was made public.
Considerable discussion then ensued, in which Mr.
Alderman Wilson complained that the line was in a
disgraceful state of dilapidation and want of efficient
accommodation.

Mr. WILKINSON, the late chairman of die Croydon
Company, who defended the general conduct of the
directors, and said the managemesit of the line had
been cheaper than the North Western and
Eastern Counties Railways, but who laid the
locomotive mismanagement of the line entirely to the
door of Mr. Peter Clarke, who, he said, practised
false and extravagant economy, as he had disgusted
the servants under his control, and dissatisfied the
public, Mr. Cash, and others.
The appointment of a committee of seven share-
holders holding forty shares was carried, and the re-
port was confirmed, so much as had reference to the
dividend, the borrowing of 176,5981., and the con-
version of the fifteenths into stock. _ _

The meeting was then adjourned until the 30th of
March next.
The following are the names of the committee :
Mr. Wishaw, Mr. P. A. Taylor, M. Cash, Mr.
Sterry, Mr. Cornelius Nicholson, Mr. S. L. Griffiths,
and Mr. East.
A dividend at the rate of 11. per 501. share for the
half-year was then formally declared. The motion
with respect to the register was declared by the
solicitor to be contrary to the Railways Consolidation
Acts, and that it would be in the power of any one
shareholder who was dissatisfied to obtain an injunc-
tion ; the motion was therefore withdrawn.
A vots of thanks having been passed to the Chair-,
man and directors, and suitably acknowledged, the
meeting adjourned at half-past three.

THE PICTURESQUE AT CAEN.—As I walked along
the ramparts, says Professor Donaldson, I looked down
upon the roofs and terraces, and gardens of the houses
beneath, and my curiosity and wonder were highly ex-
cited by beautiful and picturesque dwellings that were
perceptible here and there. I immediately threaded my
way down the narrow streets that led from the castle,
and many a carved wooden over-hanging front, many a
striking interior rewarded my curiosity, as I passed in
and out unobstructed, almost unobserved, in the bustling
din
of the every-day business carrying on. Here is
quite a mine of novelty, that would completely illustrate
the domestic manners of the middle ages, opening to us
featu'"?s and uu.l3:;:pet.,tc,i (.1

Mr. D. NI NEILL, Lord C. HAMILTON, and two
other Hon. Members took the oaths and their seats.
SECOND READINGS.

:!THYR.-IVe are happy LI) Aate that tlie num-
ber ei perouns sulking Irvin iailueirha is rafildly ue•
creasing. In fact, the cases are rare, and the public
health may be said to be greatly improyed.-7-Cambrian.

The following Bills were read a second time and
ordered to be committed :—Brentford Gas Light Acts
Amendment ; Dunbar Customs, Water, and Harbour
Dues Amendment ; Edinburgh Police Consolidation
and Sanitary Improvement; Helmsdale, Little Ferry,
and Lock Robie Harbours; Kettering Small Tene-
ments Rating; Leicester Cemetery ; Leicestershire
Lunatic Asylum; Leith Municipality and Police,
Trusts, Markets, Paving, and Sanitary Improve-
ment ; Liverpool Gas Light Company, add Liverpool
New Gas and Coke Company Amalgamation;
Londonderry improvement ; Magdalen Hospital
Act Amendment ; Manchester General Cemetery ;
National Monument of Scotland Amendment ; Os-
westry Markets and Fairs; Price's Patent Candle
Company ; Scottish Provident Institution ; Shrews
bury Market ; Stirling Waterworks ; Torquay
Market;_Tyne Direct Ferry ;_ Wigan Improvement.

INCOME OF THE SE 3: OF CANTERPURY.
Lord JOHN RUSSEI .L said, his lion. Friend
(Mr. Horsrnan) gave hint notice on Friday that he
intended to ask a questi o n with respect to the
future income of the I see of Canterbury.
In doing so, he sai si that hE was not
satisfied with the presee t mode of fixing the in-
comes of Right Reveren d Prelates, and that he
should propose that the income of any future
Archbishop should be ;onsidered liable to any
alteration which Perna] l2ent might think proper
to make with respect to those incomes. The
Hon. Gentleman referred to the instance of the
see of Durham—he believed he mid„ ht klaVe referred to
other instances in which
a similar rArrangement pre-
vailed. In reply to the Hoe .coarable Gentleman
he had to state, that lie en' Arely concurred in
his opinion that the present r node of fixing the in-
comes was not satisfactory.—( Hear, hear.) That he
thought Parliament might r cake a better arrange-
ment with regard to the no Kie of payment adopted
by the Commissioners, and t. nat lie thought it was per-
fectly just that the future Archbishop of Canterbury
ought to be subject to way, arrangement that might be
made. His salary was Led at 15,0001. per annum by the
Ecclesiastical CominiF,sioners. it was not proposed
to make any alterati,an in that sum.
Mr. 11ORSMA-.N" said that the statement of the
Noble Lord was quite satisfact ary to him.
HYDE ELECTION COMMITTEE.
The SPEAKER informed the House that the
Examiner of Recognizrnces had informed him
that the sureties; in the case of the petition against the
election of XI-de had been found unobjectionable.
NE W PALACE AT WESTMINSTER.
Sir R. Td. INGLIS wished to make a request to
the Hon, Member for Middlesex with respect to his
motion on the subject of the new Palace, and to put
off Ir:it:Ting it before the House until he (Sir R.
Inglis) moved for the appointment of a Committee to
inquire into the subject. Nothing whatever would be
lost by the adoption of such a course.
Mr. B. OSBORNE declined to accede to the pro-
position of the Right Hon. Baronet. He felt it his
duty to bring forward the subject without delay.
NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.
On the order of the day for going into Committee
on this Bill being read,

Mr. B. OSBORNE rose, persuant to his motion,
to call the attention of tfm House to the progress of
the New Palace. He ~tie fully aware of the incon-
venience of the present mode of so doing. It was a
course not desirable upon an ordinary occasien.—
(Cheers.) His estimate of the proper conduct of a
Member of that House was, that he ought not only
to be careful in voting the supplies, but that he
ought also to exercise a supervisors over the sup-
plies which he voted. When they called to
mind the enormous sums which had been already
voted—far above the amount of the original estimate—
and when they toe;te into consideration the compare-
tively slow progress of the building, he thought he
should not at least be accused of undue pre-
sumption, if he called the attention of the
House for a short time to the subject.—(Heir,
hear.) The Noble Lord at the head of the
Woods and Forests had said on a former occasion
that they could not exercise any control over the
proceedings; he (Mr. Osborne) thought that this was
one reason why the House ought to take the matter
into their own hands. The aphorism that " What
was everybody's business was done by no •
body" was never more forcibly seen than in
the case of these new Houses of Parliament. The
house of Commons voted the supplies, the Treasury
issued the money, the Woods and Forests drew the
cheques for the contractors, but none of these three
bodies seem to have the power to exercise
the slightest control over the building. He
was not making any attack or charge against
Mr. Barry, for he did not think Mr. Barry was
much to blame when he said that House was to eager
to vote money without taking steps to have a control
over its expenditure. He must now crave the indul-
gence of the House for a few minutes while he went
into a few details in connexion with the building. In
1836 there was a joint Committee of both Houses of
Parliament appointed to consider Mr. Barry's estimates,
and the estimate that gentleman delivered to this Com-
mittee amounted to 111,0041. Mr. Barry, when he
delivered this estimate, voluntarily infermed the Cons
mittee that it would take him six years to complete the
building. Well, then, !lox stood the matter now ?
I\' hy, in 1848, there had been expended upon the
works nearly 1,401,0361. odd, while instead of their in-
habiting the House of Commons they were
as far off that point as they were in 1836 ;
indeed some people supposed that the new
House of Commons was an imaginary creation
—a Mrs. Harris sort of building.—(Laughter.) in
the year 1839 there was a roving commission of
geologists appointed, who went through England
and Wales to examine into the different qualities of
stone best adapted for the purposes of this building,
the expense of which commission amounted to
4,902/. Bs. 11d. Now he wanted to know how it was
this charge had been accumulating ever since. In-
deed he, for one, could not see what necessity there
could have been for the appointment of such
a commission, for he was informed that the
stone which had been employed on the
building was anything but adapted to the
purposes, or calculated to withstand the attacks of the
weather.—(Hear, hear.) In 1841 a Committee was
appointed to estimate the expense of ventilating and
warming the new House of Commons, when
it appeared that Dr. Reid estimated the
expense at 86,000/. The Committee sanc-
tioned the expenditure. But here he must stop
to make a remark upon the delay that had taken
place, in the progress of the work. It could not
be said that Dr. Reid's operations were the cause of
it, for, to a question asked by the Noble Lord the
present Secretary of the Colonies, who was a mem-
ber of this Ventilating Committee, Mr. Barry
himself stated the ventilating operations would
cause no delay in the progress of the works,
They would have thought that that expense for warm-
ing the House and fire-proofing would have concluded
the outlay in that respect ; but no such thing.
They had already expended upwards of
96,0001. in experiments for warming and
ventilating, and they had no security that they would
not have another 96,000/. expended upon it. The
truth was, that so much money had been expended
under what was called the general authority which it
was said had been given to the architect and Dr. Reid,
that he thought it was high time that the House
should know what that general authority was,
in order that they might circumscribe it or put an
end to it, as they thought fit. He thought
also that it was high time that the squabbles
that had
.been going on between Dr. Reid and Mr.
Barry, which had delayed the construction of the
whole building for upwards of nine months,
should be put a stop to.—(Cries of " Hear.")
He was no partisan of either ; but he thought that if
those squabbles continued it was the duty of the
House to step in and send both those gentlemen to
the right about, in order to put an end
to it.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He hoped
that affairs had now reached that eliwax that the
Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests
would interfere, and if he did not, that the House
would—(Hear, hear, and cheers)—as he was sure
unless the House took steps to show the
architect and Dr. Reid what were their true places,
they would never get into the new Houses of Par-
liament.—(Hear, hear.) The House, he had no
doubt, would hardly credit his statement, when he
said that upwards of 36,000/. had been expended for
official residences. In 1842 the Speaker thought it
right to call the attention of Lord Lincoln to the ne-
cessity of providing a new reshience for the first clerk.
The estimate furnished was 2,0001., and the house was to
be ready in eighteen months. The house was no more
ready now than then; so that here had been an outlay
of 5001: per annum for seven years, or 3,5001. altoge-
ther, simply because Mr. Barry chose to consult his own
fancies and will. There had been much laudation of the
frescoes in the other House; he (Mr. Osborne) was not a
man of taste, and would not, therefore, venture an
opinion 4h the subject, farther than the saying that, as
a Member of the House, be could not vote for the ap-
pointment of a committee of taste of the gentlemen who
lauded the frescoes.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But as
to the frescoes, in relation to the progress of the build.
ing, be decidedly objected to the proposition advanced
by Mr. Barry, that there must be more ventilation and
re-arrangements, involving great delay and great ex-
pense, merely for the purpose of preserving these preci-
ous frescoes.—(Hear, hear.) What, on this subject said
Lord Sudeley—at all events as good a judge of frescoes
and of architecture as Mr. Barry? Why, Lord Sudeley,
before the Committee of 1844, said that if the new
Houses of Parliament were meant as exhibitions of
the fine arts, Mr. Barry's _view on the points
might be a correct one so far, but that he himself re-
garded the new Houses of Parliament in a different
light, and considered that the fine arts, while adapted in
the way of embellishment, were not to supersede every
other consideration, or to interfere with arrangements
otherwise desirable.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Barry, how-
ever, upon all occasions, put forward the orders of the
Fine Arts Committee as a reason for this or that altera-
tion, or addition, or deviation, and the result would be
an additional outlay of some 200,0901 for mere whims.
—(Hear, hear.) As to what anything would ciostil
how-
ever, this nobody knew, the architect least o
_a per-
sons, the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests—
tie responsible functionary—e2teepted. il F
r. Barry,
when asked by one of the Committees what he thought
would now be the expense, coolly answered that he had
not the slightest idea on the subject—that he could not
even guess what would be the ultimate cost.--(Hear.)
And as to the Noble Chief Commissioner of Woods
and Forests, he declared himself wholly unpre-
pared to assist Mr. Barry in his
indeed, distinctly repudiated any knewledw ~1

C., • -
matter whatever--anabnegation which at once suggested
a strong doubt as to the utility ot the oak() which he
represented.—(Hear, hear.) Yet Lord Duncannon had
in the most distinct manner asserted, not merely the

right of the Woods and Forest department to control
I the architects of any works, but their bounden duty to
do so.—(Dear, he <r.) The committee of 1344, in their
report, had stated that during the progress of the
building of the new Houses, certain deviations and
alterations had been made by Mr. Barry without any
authority from the Goverment. Yet from that time. to
this, no public functionary had called the attention of
the House to these alterations and deviations. With
respect to the delay that had taken place in completing
the new Houses of Parliament, what, let him ask, was
the House led to expect in the year 1836 would be the
term which the new buildings would require for their
entire completion ? The lion. Baronet below him
(Sir R. Inglis) would remember in common with
himself that six years was the extreme limit of
time fixed by Mr. Barry for the House to be in
' the occupation of the Members ; and further, he recols
lected that oil the occasion when this statement was
made Mr. letrry volunteered the assurance that from
the tims that the foundations were laid there would only
elapse a period of two years before the Committee-
rooms would be ready for the reception of Members.—
(Hear, hear.) But then there arose a delay and a diffi •
culty in laying the foundations of the House, and in the
year 1846, when Mr. Barry was asked when the foun-
dations were laid, he replied that he could not tell, for
he kept no diary of the progress of the works. Would
any private gentleman act upon such a plan in his own
building?—(hear, hear.) In point of fact the architect,
and all those who were officially- concerned in the build-
ings, had been annually subjec'ed to a running fire of
questions respecting the opening of the new Houses
which they had found it very inconvenient to parry.
In 1842 his Het-to:treble Friend on his left (Mr.
Hume) received for answer from Lord Lincoln,
then at the head of the Woods and Forests, the reply
that he had seen Mr. Barry on the very day the
question as to when the House would be opened was
put, and that he assured the House the buildings would
be ready for their reception in 1845. So, again, in the
year 1845, the Ilenourable Member for York repeated
the same question, and ho was assured, in precisely the
same terms as before, that there was no reason why the
Houses should net be ready by 1847. Mr. Barry him-
self, when asked by the Lords' Committee at what
period he expected the House of Commons to be ready,
answered, that he had not the smallest idea—(A laugh)
—anal, lastly, Lord Morpeth had very recently assured
Hon. Mentbsrs that the House would be ready, but at
what period the Noble Lord had totally omitted to state.
So that the House and the country were as much in the
dark on this point as ever. There was another point to
which he Legsd to draw the attention of the Noble
Lord, namely, as to the accounts furnished of the money
paid for the new buildings. There was an item of
25,000/. paid to the architect on account of his
remuneration for superintending the construction
after the original plan. But it was stated in
a note that this sum had not been accepted
by Mr. Barry as a eayment in full for his services. Now
he (Mr. B. Osborne) distinctly assured the Committee
that 25,000/. was to be the utmost limit of the remune-
ration to be received by him, and a letter written by the
late Earl of Bessborough was on record, wherein that
Noble Lord stated that Mr. Barry had no claim what-
ever beyond the 25,000/. agreed to be paid on the ap-
proval of his plan by both Houses of Parliament. In
answer to this letter Mr. Barry said that he acceded to
the award, although the amount eas below what was
customary for architects to receive, and that he did so
because he found it was considered by the Government
to be a liberal remuneration; and not only did the
Board of Commissioners think the payment liberal, but
when the sum was specified to Sir Benjamin Stephen-
son and Mr. Milner, they were also of opinion it was
quite sufficient. Having thus laid the various facts con-
nected with the subject before the House, he could only
express his ecknowledgrnet is for the courteous attention
with which his statement had been received, and await
the information which the Government might think
proper to give.—(Cheers.)
Lord MORPETII said he must preface the few ob-
servations which he had to offer to the House by stating
that he really thought his Hon. Friend who had just
concluded his speech had entirely mistated the answers
given the other night by his Noble Friend the First
Lord of the Treasury and by himself. In the first place, he
thought he might appeal to the House to say whether
there was anything like a sneer in the answer which he
gave. Then, with respect to the answer given by his
Noble Friend, that surely could not be constructed as
indicating that the Board of Woods and Forests, or the
Treasury could not exercise any control over the ex-
penditure incurred in erecting the two Houses of Pare
dement. All that was said was, when the question
was asked whether the Government could guarantee
that the cost of the entire work would not exceed
1,400,0001., that the Government certainly could not
guarantee that the expense of a work of such prodigious
magnitude would not exceed the precise sum of
1,400,0001. His Hon. Friend had been rather severe
on his (Lord Morpeth's) department, and had stated,
that if it could not control the expenditure now going
on, it was useless, and ought to be abolished. Since
he had had the honour to hold the office of Chief Com-
missioner of the Woods and Forests he had made it his
particular business to inquire and ascertain in what the
duties of that department were understood to consist,
both by his predecessors, Lord Besborough, Lord Lin-
coln, and Lord Canning, and by those gentlemen who
permanently retained their seats at the board. All
these gentlemen conceived that they acted ministerially,
as a subordinate department of the Treasury, and that
they had no more power to control the amount of ex-
penditure incurred than they had to settle the details of
the architecture. And, certainly, he thought it very
lucky that such was not the case, for if the Woods and
Forests were called on to control the expenses of the
building, and settle the details of the architecture, they
would :probably make but indifferent work of it. He
cone dyed that this department was intended to inves-
tigate accounts, and to see in what way money was
applied after its outlay had received the sanction of the
Treasury. It had to see that responsible persons were
employed, and that proper terms were agreed upon ; it
had to examine accounts, to see that the conditions of
contracts were faithfully observed, and that the bills
were paid. The duties imposed upon the office were
very laborious, and he was convinced that they were
discharged with great zeal and ability. He might say
this in particular of that excellent public servant, Mr.
Milne, so long connected with this department. Fur-
ther, it was certainly the duty of the Woods and Forests
to report any deviation from the original design in *
public work to the Treasury, for their sanction or disal-
lowance, and this rule, he believed, had been acted upon ,
by the department. But when his Hon. Friend threw
blame on the department of Woods and Forests, and
ud he wished that a Parliamentary Commission had
been appointed, he must rereind him that one of the
chief sources of expense had been, that this building had
been carried on under the special direction and superin-
tendence of a committee of the two Houses of Parliament,
which had sat on the subject, conducted their investiga-
tionr, and made their reports. He wished to
state to the House what, up to the present day, the
actual expenditure bad been, and what was the excess of
expenditure over the original estimate. The original es-
timate furnished by Mr. Barry was 707,0001. The sum
advanced for works, including architect's commission,
clerks' wages, &c., was 808,0001.; but of this, 378,000/
had been paid for embankments, river wall, warming
and ventilating, fire-proof construction, additional resi-
dences, sewers, decorations, fittings, furniture of the
'House of Lords, and other miscellaneous works, all of
whickfortned nu part of the original estimate, leaving a
balance of 430,0001., which had been expended on ac-
count of the original design and estimate. It was fair,
therefore, to state, that in the execution of the original
design, only 430,000/. had been at present spent. He
would not, any more than his Hon. Friend, venture to
pronounce any judgment upon the style of that building.
That was a matter of bygone times, and as there were
many Mt mbers of the House, there might be many minds
upon it. The style selected was the highly decorated
style, which they knew was a highly expensive one.
Neither would he now enter upon a discussion of
the propriety of appointing a Committee of Fine
Arts. Her Majesty's present Government 'were not
responsible for that commission, but he must say that ho
did not think the country at large would at all sympa-
thise with the attempt made by his Hon. Friend to cast
discredit upon that opening which had been made for
giving encouragement to the rising talent of the coun-
try.—(Hear, hear.) Of course he, agreed with his Hon.
Friend that substantial utility ought not to be postponed
to decoration, but bare walls might properly be .covered
by pictures, and he could not help thinking that his Hon.
Friend had been unduly severe upon the frescoes in the
House of Lords. They were not, it was true, perfect,
but they were very creditable examples of a new mode of
decorative art, and he had no doubt that the most com-
petent judges would confirm this verdict, which he ven-
tured, with diffidence, to pronounce. Of course he did
not mean to deny that this had been a most expensive
building, and had considerably exceeded the sum esti-
mated as the cost of its completion, but he put it to the
House, whether it could fairly have been expected to
be otherwise?—(Hear, hear.) The original design
of a building of such vast magnitude and such vari-
ous uses could only have embraced the general
arrangement and character of the building. Many
errors of the architect which must have been originally
included in the design—many difficulties which he did
not than foresee—could only be considered and cor-
rected as the architect came to deal with the require-
ments made upon hint. The modifications required
from him had been endless, both from Committees of
that House and trotn the heads of departments con-
nected with the public service. Since the first stone of
the Houses of Parliament was laid, the growth of public
business had been immense, and required increased ac-
commodation, which the architect had to provide. He
need only instance that splendid corridor which
stretched it 4 proud length by the committee rooms of
the House of Commons, and which, expensive as it
might be, scarcely bore a proportion to the costliness of
the transactions there carried on.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) Then, among other things for which the
architect was not prepared, and could not be prepared,
were the warming and ventilating arrangements, which
were not considered in the original estimate. His Hon.
Friend had talked of the great expenses which had
been incurred for these arrangements ; but Mr.
Barry was not responsible for them, since the House
itself had determines that the plans and arrange-
ments of 1)r. Reid should have full scope for develop-
ment. lie (Lord Morpeth) had himself announced that
it was the intention of the Government that those plans
should be applied to the House of Commons, and that
announcement was received with an unanimous expres-
sion of pleasure in the House. With regard to the
charge of stone, to which his Hon. Friend had alluded,
he believed that much difficulty had been experienced in.
,efeei-et, me:rri‘es of stone for so vast a building,
!L.!
by 22Seet/.. Ati s t e t se:.l
resideness, lie ilgreA 1.1;., ilvu. lo 61101.°
ing it was a great pity that they were not spared the
necessity of paying a large sum for the hire of these

residences. The architect, however, thought it neces-
sary to finish first those parts of the building which
were dedicated to public business ; and he (Lord Mor-
peth) thought that any other coarse would hardly be
felt desirable by the gentlemen for whose accommo-
dation those residences were intended, since the
approaches to their abodes would otherwise be encum-
bered with rubbish. He was happy also in thinking
that the present residence of their respected clerk
judging from the appearance which he presented, was
not yet a subject for his (Lord Morpeth's) Sanitary Bill.
—(A laugh.) But really the House, to do justice to
the architect, must consider the very special circum-
stances of this building. Where had they any building
that could be compared with it? It covered between
eight and nine acres of ground, and it was more like a
small town than a building.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr.
Osborne.) How many rooms did his Hon. Friend sup
pose this building contained? Between five and six hun-
dred rooms, and one hundred and fifty staircases.—
(Hear, hear.) In fact, he tnougbt, as to style and size,
there was no such building in Europe, except St. Peter's,
and that took two hundred years in building. The
architect was quite prepared to stand a comparison with
any building of ancient or modern times, either with
reference to the cost of construction, the speed of con-
struction, or the defects of construction. He felt con-
fident that he was entitled to make that challenge ; and
he (Lord Morpoth) believed, for one, that Zr. Barry
would not come to shame out of it. Mr. Barry felt
that, under all the circumstances of the case, he had
to sustain himself nearly all the responsibilities of this
vast undertaking.—(Hear, hear.) lie believed that the
architect was actuated by the single desire to make the
building a credit and glory to the country, and to rivet
his own reputation. He believed that the devotion of Mr.
Barry's 'time and' talents had been almost unparal-
leled; that the anxieties to which he had been sub-
jected had much impaired his health and spirits ; and
that if the confidence of the country were now with-
drawn from him, he would no longer be able to maintain
the contest. He owned that our national experience in
matters of architecture had not been the most happy ;
and he did not wish to deny but that some of the items
laid down in the present case might have been intended
more for the credit of the building than for the credit of
the Exchequer.—(llcar, hear.) He thought that both
Parliament and the country should direct their anxious
attention to this last consideration, and he was able to
state that the Government had taken measures to con-
tract the annual sum voted for this service.—(Hear.)
Of course, this must be done at the cost of a slower com-
pletion of the building.—(Laughter.) They thought it
their duty first to require that the most essential parts
of the building should have precedence, and that the
House of Commons should first of all be proceeded
with, while the merely ornamental parts shonld be de-
layed.—(Hear, hear.) He certainly regretted that there
had not been a more rapid completion of the works; but,
nevertheless, the Government had resolved, considering
the great extent of the works, and the state of the
finances of the country, to make a deduction on the sum
required for this department of the service. The Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Osborne) had alluded to the per centage
on the gross sum of 25,000/. to be allowed as remu-
neration to the architect ; that sum was the amount
stipulated for at the commencement of the works. And,
whatever that House might choose to do as to the entire
remuneration of Mr. Barry, be presumed he could have
no complaint if he was allowed for the services origi-
nally agreed upon the sum of 25,000/. He was sure
that Mr. Barry had been actuated throughout by an
anxious desire for the credit of the building; and while
he would not deny that the cost had far exceeded the
general expectation, yet he must say that he considered
it had been expended upon a structure which would be
an ornament rind an honour to the country, and also to
Mr. Barry. He must say for that gentleman, that by
those who best knew him he was regarded with the
highest respect and the strongest attachment; and that
as an architect he joined the most excellent conception
with the most consummate skill, and that for that class
of excellence for which our era had been most remark-
able he believed the palm would be awarded by those
who came after us to the genius of Barry.—(Hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS exculpated Mr. Barry from all re-
sponsibility attaching to expenditure in the new Houses
of Parliament beyond his own immediate department.
He entreated the Noble Lord to reconsider the subject of
spreading the sum necessary for the completion of the
buildings over four er ,five years. If the Government
was Prepared to complete the designs, let the necessary
amount be at once asked for, and bring the works to a
conclusion, instead of delaying their termination for so
Many years.
Mr. HUME agreed with the last sentence of the
llon. Baronet who had just sat down as to the impro-
priety of prolonging the works. This was a course
which he had no doubt would add to the expense. It
had been said that Mr. Barry had an excellent oppor-
tunity of showing his taste in the course of the erection
of these buildings, and to that he (Mr. Hume) should
not have objected, ;sr )vided he had done so at his own
,c:Naense.—(Laughter.) He was glad to see the Right
yon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) in his place, because he would
be able to show the Right Hon. Baronet that he had
every
fight to expect a very different result from what
had been shown in respect of these buildings. It should
be recollected that this business was not hastily begun,
and that they had a pledge from the Chancellor of the
Exchequer at that time (no .v Lord Ripon) that no more
tan 300,000/. would be expended without working plans
being exhibited. A recommendation, however, was
Riven by the Committee appointed by the Right Hon.
terentleman (Sir It. Peel), that a plan involving 707,0001
should be adopted. He (Mr. Hume) made a proposal
that they should not take Mr. Barry's plan, but that of
Mfr. Hamilton, which was estimated at 450,0001. ; but
that proposal was rejected. He was resolved, however,
tjtatltbe plan of Mr. Barry should not be adopted by the
Committee till they had some examination as to whether
his estimates had been properly made out. Accordingly
Mr. Barry was called in, and, on examination, he stated
that he had made the estimates himself, assisted by com-
petent persons—that they wore such as he could rely
upon—and that the kind of stone to be used, for which
a price of 4s. a foot was estimated, was to be the best
that could be got for the purpose. As to the sum of
4,000/, which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Osborne) spoke
of as having been expended by the Committee appointed
to make inquiry after the best quality of stone, he did
not know what error there might be in that item; but
he was one who strongly approved of the appointment
of that Committee, as he was opposed to the building
being begun till they ascertained that the stone to be
employed was sufficient for the purpose, and of one face
and colour. But to return to the estimates. When he
had put a variety of questions to Mr. Barry, it turned
914 that Mr. Barry had not made all the estimates
himself. He could not give any satisfactory answer
III): to what the expense of the building might
; and he (Mr. Hume) was referred to one
0
two gentlemen for information ; but the result was
that,,,p he could find no one responsible for the estimates.—
ar, hear.) An entire year was then given to get
%,‘rerect information, and to make out the complete plans.
..4_) Committee at length reported, recommending the
tToption of the plan finally proposed by Mr. Barry, on
."2 express understanding that the work was to be
;!ecuted for a sum not exceeding, by any considerable
,;"..13, the amount stated by Mr. Barry.—(Hear.) He
flume) objected to this undertaking being left to
,i,t r7are of the Commissioners of the Woods and Forests,
twere a changeable body, depending upon the altera-
w,na of the Ministry. The First Lord of the Treasury
in fault ; and, as the greater proportion of the
ode-
viations took place when the Right Hon. Gentleman
)Pasite was in office, he was responsible. The expen-
diture would exceed by one entire million the amount to
which the House of Commons had limited the expense.
1;10
4 ald the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Committee
th° agreed to enter on such an undertaking if they had
en
any idea that the expenditure would so far exceed
reestimate? 754,000/. was considered the utmost extent
which the expense would amount. The House had
baeon t° complain. Ho had complained of the late
pesorough, as Chief Commissioner of Woods
sad bor_R rests, in reference to this matter; but Lord Bes-
ugh denied that he had sanctioned the additional
ez '
l:lnditure, and stated that he had signed a plan, be-
ta jig it to be the original plan, though it turned out
bd."' one with amendments. If any such imposition had
Zen place there was no punishment which the Govern-
Meat ought not to have inflicted on the guilty parties.
itad never seen any disposition on the part of the
°_itse to refuse any expense for any useful building.
,ur himself, he had never refused.— (A laugh, and
to hear")—in cases where the building was likely
I add •
a. credit or honour to the country. lie should not
Iy.that Mr. Barry had had anything to do with the
7:lltional expenses, but ho wished to know what share
Committee of Taste had had in authorising them.
t'i:ould the Noble Lord lay on the table an account of
ise,apenses which ey had authorised? It was wrong
blame Mr. Barryth or the Government if others were
at
.lault. He knew not whether Prince Albert was
(At
eishead of that body.—(An Hon. Member observed
(A iar, was.) That did not improve the matter—
one .„ ) It was a subject of great satisfaction to find
cot
(`) Igh in station take his place as a Member of that
vatei,istion. He (Mr. Hume) was very far from under-
eeatr g the services of the Prince; they were, on the
lead 1117, of great advantage, and anything which might
hesatbn. the withdrawal of his valuable assistance would
the „hieet of regret. But he wished to know what was
litr.iSte which had been taken by that Commission.
Ala Barry had a toy, had fools to deal with, and had
be Jed with it as he liked.—(A laugh.) There had also
so
11 an excess of expenditure on the navy estimates;
Ati " the inevitable result seemed to be additional tax-
i), r 0: lt was said this was a noble building. It might
we but it was more than they wanted. Was it right,
th"aetilt Parliament had decided to give a certain sum only,
Waa jblaaa as much should be expended? The precedent
forests were One. The Noble Lord said the Woods and
the ~,wrere not responsible. It was a reproach, thee,
eurTeAti. asury that such expenditure should be in-
per._" and the First Lord of the Treasury was the
sTrilitt!nw,,hom blame ought to be attached.
When ,e was not First Lord of the Treasury
.ne building was commenced.
W ME—No; but perhaps when the deviations
bar.ere—,
she„lr°o. It was originally decided that the architect
zotvt.tvnot be paid by a per centage; and it should
tripled lelitalteen held out to any man that if he doubled or
tnere expenditure be should receive so much the
aUr had It was to be regretted that the Trea-
tweYmuiiad net adhered to the original resolution, and that
the Tharae°n: of money should be sunk on the banks of
was not to blame. Thrice
regard to the site, he (Mr. Hume)
themeto select Thrice had he tried to induce the
re , one, opposite Marlborough-house, where
the as an excellent site. In addition to the Abbey
,itinYewere to have a large tower to keep out the sun-
Prevent The Government ought to take measures to
another h• •
to stet, L - - chilling from being thrown away, and
G,„,e,a.: they meant to control the expellee. The
.t jatut'ik,-xeart the Member for Middlesex had done
Same)
be h..," I') ih' s? ;Intl his Y: J11"'-', it
kkrue) vin_iPTl, would have a salutary effect. Ile (Mr.
"'lett to see the building completed, but with-

out the tawdry ornaments which disfigured the House
of Lords, and which, though they might be fit for the
time of Louis XIV., wore certainly not so for the pre.
sent age.

Sir R. PEEL—When the subject was last under the
consideration of the House I offered a humble sugges-
tion, that the House should appoint a Committee to in-
' quire into all the circumstances; for I felt that the in-
vestigations of such a Committee would, either as regards
the original estimate of the construction of the Houses
of Parliament, or as regards the deviations, throw light
upon the whole matter much more effectually than any-
thing which could be said in the course of a debate. I
was anxious that a Committee should be appointed to
inquire as to the original estimate, and all the works
which It covered, that we might see to what extent the
original estimate had been exceeded, and ascertain whe-
ther there were any other items besides the expense of
embanking the Thames not included in it—what was
the excess of expenditure, and what were the causes
that had led to that excess. This is my opinion still.
If a Select Committee was appointed, all those things
could be ascertain-Al more satisfactorily before it than
before the House, reserving, of course, to the House
the full right of judging for itself when the report of
the Committee should be laid on the table. The lion.
Gentleman recollects much more fully than I do what
passed in the Committee, of which I also had the
honour to be a Member. With regard to the
remuneration of the architect, I perfectly recollect that
subject being under consideration. I agreed with those
who thought it better to determine what should be the
total amount of his remuneration than to adopt the
general rule of the profession and give him five per
cent., or any other per-centage. And I must say it is
very unfortunate that the Treasury allowed a single
stone to be laid before laving down that condition, re-
ceiving the protest of kr. Barry. They should have
said, " We have a sum to be paid to you, be it 25,0001.,
or 30,0001., or any other sum. We discourage entirely
all expectation on your part of payments to a higher
amount, or on another principle. At all events, we give
you notice that it is a matter which will be settled before
the commencement of the building." I don't think the
blame falls on the Government, on the Woods and
Forests, or the Treasury. I think the House of Com-
mons must rather bear the blame. The House of
Commons has hot and cold fits—(Cheers)—in regard to
public buildings; and if the results of the deliberations
of the Committee of 1835 had been to present us with a
building according to the beau ideal of excellence which
was suggested, namely, a building corresponding with
Somerset House, I believe there would have been a feel-
ing of universal disgust.
Mr. HUME made a remark which was inaudible.

Sir R. PEEL—It was said by the Hon. Gentleman
that a building might be reared which would equal
Somerset House at a cost of 400,000/. There are re-
peated instances which I recollect when the House was
in a very economical humour, and specified a sum which
was not to be exceeded. First, there was Buckingham
Palace. The lion. Gentleman got an assurance that
300,000/. should be the extent of the expenditure. If he
walk through St. James's Park, he will now see a very
significant proof of the consequences.
Mr. llUME—These are additional-buildings.
Sir R. PEEL—But, even without the additions, I
don't think there was very much satisfaction felt with
Buckingham Palace. Then there is the Treasury.
After some lapse of time, it had been resolved to alter
its appearance; and to whose aid are you indebted for
the great improvement which has been effected? To
that of the very Mr. Barry whose qualitit.:s are so much
called in questik,n. I think it is a proof of his consum-
mate skill that Mr. Barry has been able to make out of
the Treasury, as it was left twenty or thirty years ago,
se beautiful an ornament to the metropolis.—(Cheers.)
There are other instances of the consequence of your
economy in regard to public buildings. First you limit
the architect to such an amount that his skill is fet-
tered, and then you become so dissatisfied with the
effects of your limitation of expense that you pull down
the whole front of a building and employ another archi-
tect to supply a better one.

Lord MOitPETII—The National Gallery.
Sir R. PEEL—I was just going to mention it. We
are all anxious that Mr. Barry should be sent to improve
that. A sum perfectly inadequate was awarded to
erect a building on that magnificent site, and the result
is a structure on which we cannot congratulate our-
selves.

Mr. HUME—It would have been a brick building but
for me. It was at my recommendation that it was faced
with stone.—(Laughter.)
Sir It. PEEL—It was originally proposed that the
arcade should be 11 feet high. 1 recollect the observa-
tion made by the lion. Gentleman that a man was not 11
feet high—(Laughter)—and therefore the arcade ought
not to be more than seven feet high.

Mr. HUME intimated dissent.-
Sir R. PEEL—Does not the Hon. Gentleman recol-
lect my suggestion that the higher we had the arcade
the more you would save in brick and mortar ?
(Laughter.) In the case of tSc National Gallery you
stinted the architect to a certain sum. The result was
a building which was quite unsuited to the character of
the country. lam quite sorry to think that any blame
should be cast on the conduct of the Government
in appointing the Fine Arts Commission. It was the
universal opinion of Parliament that they should
not build a house for themselves without seeking how
far they could make the circumstance instrumental to
the promotion of the fine arts. A Commission was ap-
pointed without any power to order the execution of
works. They can have no such authority without the
permission of the Treasury. Such were the origin and
objects of the Fine Arts Commission, over which, with
the utmost benefit for the promotion of art, and with the
most assiduous attention to his duties, Prince Albert has
presided. Mr. Eastlake, whom I cannot mention with-
out paying him that tribute of respect which is justly his
due as one of the most able and efficient members of his
profession, has acted as secretary of that Commission,
for a most inadequate remuneration, at a great sacrifice
of time. Has that Commission not been successful? I
hear it is said that English taste is not accustomed to
those productious which have appeared under its
auspices. There are gentlemen who contempl sted oil
paintings as fit decorations for the Houses of Parliament;
but you are to consider that the works which have been
selected are novel in this country; and you find that those
who are acquainted with fresco are surprised at the suc-
cess which has attended the efforts of our artists. At any
rate, every exertion has been made by that Commission to
call out the latent talent of the country; and no man can
see the exhibitions of successive years in Westminster-hall
without rejoicing in the opportunities which have been
afforded for its development. Many, whose powers
were previously unknown, and who had not had the
advantage of any connexion with the Royal Academy,
have shown a knowledge of art for which the country
was quite unprepared. In that respect the Fine Arts
Commission has accomplished one of the objects origi-
nally contemplated, it having been a matter for consi-
deration whether the erection of the new Houses of
Parliament could not be rendered conducive to the pro-
motion of art. If a Select Committee should be ap-
pointed there is every disposition to give information ;
and I think the Hon. Gentleman will find that the Com-
mission is not responsible for any expenditure. But if
such a Committee be appointed as that proposed by my
Hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford
(Sir R. 11. Inglis) an inquiry will be instituted into all
the circumstances, and you will then see whether any
blame can attach to any party, and on whom that blame
is to fall. It may be that the House will find that this
building was undertaken under circumstances which
relieve those who have been chiefly inculpated from
responsibility with regard to the site. That subject was
brought before Parliament. The Hon. Gentleman
thought the best site lay opposite Marlborough House,
and all his reasons were given for such preference. But
there was a strong unwillingness on the part of the
House of Commons to have the new Houses of Parlia-
ment removed from this spot, and there was a great de-
sire to restore the old Palace 9f Westminster as nearly
as possible on its original site. It ought to have been
foreseen at the time, from the nature of the foundations,
that it was difficult to make any estimate of the entire
expense. But what I desire is that the subject should
be fully inquired into, so that we may ascertain what
may be the ultimate expense, as well as the excess of
expense over the estimate, and the causes of that excess.
With regard to Mr. Barry himself, I must do that gen-
gentleman the justice to say, that in all my opportuni-
ties of intercourse I have found him fulfilling his duties
—fulfilling every duty which could possibly be expected
from one placed in that situation,—most solicitous that
the work on which lie is engaged should be worthy of
his own name and of the purpose to which it will be de-
voted, but with no disposition to incur unnecessary ex-
pense, or assume any authority for himself, or depart
from the plans originally approved of. Whatever we
may think now, when we are smarting under the ex-
pense which has attended the building, I may state
that so far as I have had intercourse with
foreigners, I have always heard it extolled in
the highest terms. I have visited it with
foreigners, architects and others, who hare had
the best means of comparing the merits of public
buildings in Europe, and as regards the interior, and
also as regards the exterior and the façade, I have heard
scarcely any other opinion expressed than that the struc-
ture is most honourable to the country that has under-
taken it, and to the person by whom it has been planned.
I believe that Mr. Barry, and I may say ail the artists
with -whom I have come into communication, are inspired
with as high a feeling of honour and principle as those
which animate any other class of her Majesty's subjects,
and that, in general, they prefer honour and distinction
to pecuniary profit.—(Hear, hear.) I believe that by
this motive exclusively Mr. Barry has been animated ;
and I believe that the result of the inquiry will show that
Mr. Barry is not responsible for any excess in the
expenditure, and that it will be seen to have arisen from
the nature of the works, from the number of persons for
whom accommodation had to be provided, from the con-
flicting opinions of the Lords and Commons, from the
varying views'of separate and joint Committees, from
the immense extent of accommodation required for
Committees, which was hardly contemplated when the
building was designed. I believe that, by a full in-
quiry, it will be seen that there are modes of account-
ing for a great part of the excess of expenditure, which
will leave no blame on any individual or party ; but,
whether this be the case or not, let us go into the in-
quiry, and whatever censure may be due for the past,
let us see whether any precautions can be taken to
avoid it for the future.—(Hear, hear.) I have one
concluding point to notice, and that is, that I concur
with the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) in thinking, that
if we are satisfied that the building—l will not say ac-
cording to the original design, but according to the pre-
sent design— can be completed is a short time, it would
be better, for the sake of economy, to avoid spreading
the cost over a certain number of y sirs; that vi-v should
be guided by economy aionc, that Wt; should be influenced
by no desires for incre,.....tl convenience, by no desire to
exchange the old bantling ku the new, by nu j.teousy
of the House of Lords on account of their having pos-
session of their apartment so soon, by no considerations