The Sun.
London, England, 1846-02-24 00:00:00

THE SUN . ),_.ON. h O IN:i,.._. it

tive franchise of Ireland ; as also whether it was his intention
to bring in any Bill ors the part of the Government for
affording compensation to the tenantry of Ireland for any
improvements which they had effected on the lands in their
occupation, in the eVeht of their being put out of possession.
The. letters were these-Ist. Whether it be the intention of
her Majesty's Government to bring in any Bill, during the
present session, to enable the saints proportion, as nearly
as can be, of the people of Ireland to enjoy the elec-
tive franchise with the comparative proportion of
the population of England enjoying that franchise?
2nd. Whether it be the intention of her Majesty's Government
to bring in any Bill, during the present session, to enable the
people of Ireland to return a just and an adequate number of
representatives to this House? 3rd. Whether it be the inten-
tion of her Majesty's Government to bring in any Bill, during the
present session, to equalise the franchise and powers in the
Municipal Reform Act for Ireland with the same franchises
and powers conceded by the Municipal Reform Act of England
to the English Corporations ? 4th. Whether it be the inten-
tion of Her Majesty's Gnvernment to bring in any Bill, during
the present session, to give to tenants in Ireland adequate
and full compensation for improvements made upon their
lands during the tenantcy ?
Sir R. PEEL was quite ready to give as full a reply as he
was able, to the questions of the lion. and Learned
Gentleman. And in answer to his first question, he must beg
to observe that it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to give precedence to the measures of the most pressing
importance which were now before the House. Those
measures had a large reference to the commercial interests
of the country ; and the Government, therefore, felt that it
was a paramount duty to bring them to a conclusion without
interfering with their progress by the introduction of any other
measure iniss the House. There were, then, other measures of
importance which concerned the financial concerns of the
country. These being disposed of, he had no hesitation
in saying that it was the intention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to introduce measures upon the points
to which the Noble and Learned Gentleman had referred.
In reply to the first of these inquiries, it had been decided.that
Ireland was entitled to the same extent of elective franchise, in
proportion to its inhabitants and means, as England. That
it was intended to assimilate the municipal franchise with
that of England, and that it was but just, in their opinion,
to give the tenants of land sufficient compensation
for the capital which they might have expended in the
improvement of their holding. He would state nothing more
with regard to the precise nature of the measures which the
Government contemplated. And he thought it would
be unfair to press him further on that point. (Cheers. )
The next case occurs in the county of Roscommon, and it is
communicated by the manager of the National Bank in that
town, who was a person not calculated to have excited the
animosity of the labouring classes. He states that
his mother resides a short way out of the town
of Roscommon, and that on the 7th of January last her house
was entered between eight and nine at night by a body of
armed men, and she was forced upon her knees to take an
oath that she would discharge her bog-herd, and appointed to
his place another person whom they named. The gentleman
who communicated this case was Mr. B. G. Irvin ; and he
added that the acts of these lawless bands had thrown all the
peaceful inhabitants of the district into a state of the utmos
alarm.

Mr. O'CONNELL desired to know whether the Govern-
ment would have any objection to lay on the table of the House
a copy or the correspondence passed between the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland and the inhabitants of Westmeath respecting
the case of Brian Seery ?
Sir J. GRAHAM, who was indistinctly heard, was under-
stood to say that the Government would have no objection.
There had been ~h address to the Lord Lieutenant praying that
the law might take its course ; he regretted deeply such an
unusual proceeding.—( Hear.) But that interference had no
effect in deciding the intentions of the Executive, which were
founded on a most careful investigation of the entire of
the evidence.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the third por-
tion of the H in. Gentleman's question, namely, whether there
be any instance in England, for the last century, of any person
being tried for any capital felony, by a second jury, after the
first jury was discharged by the court, at the same session of
assizes, and convicted and executed ; and if so, state the
time, place, and name of the individual. He would
excuse him if he were not sufficiently versed in
the practice of the law, but in the year 1794, at the summer
assizes at York, there was a man tried for murder before Mr.
Justice Lawrence, and the first jury having disagreed, he or-
dered a second to be sworn, who convicted the prisoner;
and, notwithstanding a representation to the Home
Secretary, the law was allowed to take its course*
The judge in that case had not summed up, because one of
the jury had been taken ill, and that jury was discharged and
another jury sworn, who convicted the prisoner. A case had
also occurred on the Midland Circuit recently, before Mr.
Justice Coltman. The prisoner was a female in that case, named
Hannah Jarvis, who was indicted for murder. The jury could
come to no decision at that, the spring assizes, but at the
following the summer assizes the prisoner was again put upon
her trial upon the same indictment, and she, was acquitted ;
bat he cited this as a case in which the principle mentioned by
the Hors. Member was acted upon. The point had also been
solemnly argued before the Lord Chief Baron and Baron Brady,
and decided by them. It arose out of a case in which Baron Brady
had passed sentence of death upon a prisoner, and upon the case
being referred to the Lord Lieutenant, and by him to the judge,
it was decided that the law should take its course.
Mr. O'CONNELL Ras aware that some cases had been de-
cided in Ireland somewhat similar to those mentioned by the
Right Hon. Baronet, such for instance as the celebrated case
of the Doneraile conspiracy ; but in that case all that was
known was that Baron Penefather, who was the first criminal
judge in Ireland, had given an opinion, but the opinion itself
was not known.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL was glad to hear from the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite, that he was about to introduce mea.
sures for the better administration of the elective and municipal
franchise in Ireland, as well as with reference to the tenant
interest in that country; but he would wish to know whether
those measures would be introduced before a measure of another
character, affecting Ireland, about to be introduced in the
other House of Parliament, should come before that House.
Sir ROBERT PEEL.—I would rather not answer that
question.
____

Employment had been acknowledged ors all hands to be, one of
the most efficacious means of relieving,tjle,initery diStress
that prevailed in Irelap4 and fie (the Hon. Member) had
fondly looked forwAtil to the improvement of land as a means
e'f intFeasing employment, when prosperity would be certain
to increase in proportion as distress diminished, and so would
the people of Ireland be vastly benefited.—( Hear, bear.) But
if the measure of the Right lion. Gentleman should be carried,
could any person expect or suppose that the landlords would
lay out their capital with the certainty of loss staring them in
the face ?—( Hear, hear.) Could the tenant afford to reclaim
the bog and sow it with corn, so as to compete in the market
with the foreigner, who had the advantages OF climate and land
in a superior state of cultivation'—( Hear, hear.) No; the
bog would remain barrels> iha the hill-side would continue to
grow nothing but heather ; and one of the chief channels of
employment would thus be blocked up. He felt strongly
on the question, both for the sake of the agriculturist and
manufacturer. In the north of Ireland the hand-loom
weaver was often a farmer ; and under the present system of
protection, in one small town 18,0001. worth of linen was sold at
the weekly market ; but should the present measure pass, trade
would be destroyed, and the agriculture of the country would
be shut out by means of foreign competition. He protested
against the measure as being an unnecessary, a hazardous, and
a revolutionary scheme.—( Hear, hear.) No doubt the mea-
sure would have the effect of stimulating the advocates
for repeal of the union to increased exertions. They
would say to the farmer, " England has deprived yon of the
advantage which her markets have hitherto given for the sale
of your corn, butter, beef, and pork—your occupation is gone,
and you are in no better position than the foreign trader,
and can you now refuse to cry, huzza for the repeal of
the union ?" He would again implore the Howe
to pause before it placed so dangerous a weapon in the hand of
designing agitators. He confessed that it was with feelings of
apprehension and alarm, that he looked forward to the proba-
bility of this measure passing into a law, the consequence of
which it was impossible to foresee. It might be the fore-
shadowing of another revolution which would affect things
of a more vital interest, and lead to the destruction of all for
which we once prized the English constitution. He would
not take up the time of the House by alluding at length to
the smallness of the compensation which had been given to
Ireland, he should only state one fact, which was, that in Lon-
donderry the average charge for the police force for the last
three years was 2,2171. 103. 5•1., which was a very small
fraction above Id. per acre. If the Government had intended
to relieve Ireland, why not forego the repayment of the loan
for the erection of workhouses in that country ?—that would
have been considered a real boon. At present the only persons
that would be benefited by the compensation would be the
midnight legislators, who requires large police force. He asked
the House if it would sanction by its deliberate decision—
would the House declare that there was to be a new faith for its
Members—were its Members to become weather cocks, veering
about at every breath of popular opinion, to point out the
quarter from which the blast of agitation was strongest? He
should still abide by the old war-cry of the country, "No sur-
render But, however, let him give them this warning, that
while they were advancing the doctrines of free -trade, they
did net injure the very cense which they most desired to serve;
that whilst they were urging proceeding on the impulse of this
age, and endeavouring to go onwards, ,let them take care that
whilst their progress was onwards, it was not at the same time
downwards. Now, let him ask the Right Hon. Baronet
whether, in the concoction of this comprehensive measure he
provided for the contingency—for he was bound to provide for
all contingencies—if he had provided for contingency that in
the event of its proving by dear bought experience that his
measure had failed—that in the event of these acres which he
was now throwing out of cultivation remaining untitled, supplies
from abroad failing, the industry of the great manufacturing
districts being paralysed, and famine and want staring that in-
dustrious community in the face, he begged to ask the Right
Honourable Baronet whether, in the event of such a contin-
gency as that, he had made any provision for retracing his
steps, and restoring the country to prosperity and abundance—
" Facilis descensus avemi, sed revocare gradum hic labor est."
Mr. MONTAGUE GORE was anxious to justify the
vote which he was about to give, and the opinions which he
now entertained of the subject before the House ; and he was
anxious to do this for the respect he entertained for a great
party within the House, and also for a great party out of doors.
In doing this, he must beg to remind the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down, that if there was a consistency which
was a great and noble quality, and which he hoped would
always be met with in this country, there was also another
species, of which obstinacy and self-interest were ingredients.
When Hon. Gentlemen talked about changes of opinion, he
could convince them that in every great question whichhad
agitated this country there had been great changes of opinion.
On that great question of the corn-laws a great change of
opinion had taken place in those who had in 1814 and 1815
maintained that any price below 90s. a quarter for
wheat could not be remunerative. Mr. Huskisson, in
1814, was a strong advocate of protection mea-
sures ' • and yet, as every one knew, he subsequently de-
clared that the corn-laws could not be maintained. If it were
an error to change, then were the public and'all parties guilty
of the charge. He (Mr. Gore) would consider himself un-
worthy of a seat in that House—he would consider himself
unworthy of taking part in any public debates—if, when con-
vinced of an error he did not come 'forward and manfully and
frankly avow it. But he considered it a very material point
that a question which distracted public councils to such an ex-
tent should have a settlement,' especially when no Injury could
arise to any of the great public interests of the country from
its being done.—(Hear, hear.) When they looked
to their colonial possessions—their Indian empire—they
must see how desirable it was to their interests that these
measures should pass, and that energy should be impacted to
the executive Government. He would not have voted in
support of the Minister on the mere plea of the necessity of
a settlement, if he were not eonvinced that these measures
might ba passed without detriment to the public interests.--
( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary
for the War Department, made use of a term which has been
laid hold of in a sense which be did not mean it to signify ;
he said, that the agriculturists were acting under a delusion—
he meant under mistaken views. He (Mr. Gore) perfectly
agreed with him in that opinion, for it was quite a delusion
to consider that the country would be deluged with an inun-
dation of corn. He would just state the result of his inquiries
oa this subject. According to Mr. Jacob's report in Dantzic
the price of wheat averaged at forty shillings
the quarter. They should then add freightage and the
expenses of landing and lading. A friend of his stated that he
paid 4s. Bd. for freightage, Is. 4d. for insurance, and 6s. 9d.
for lading and lauding, in all 12s. 9d. Another gentleman of
the highest respectability makes it 10s. At Odessa, in 1840,
wheat averaged 345. per quarter. And he had been informed
that for freightage it was usual to pay 8s 61., insurance Is. 4d.,
and lading 55., in all 14s. 10d. Another gentleman made the
extra charges amount to 15s. With regard to capital being in
those countries, or that they were progressing in agricultural
improvement, he had only to say that those countries did not
possess either capital or improved agriculture, because the facilities
for conveyance were so few and bad that capital could not be
vested there ; and labour was wanted there, because the present was
of feudal tenure and the labourers were little better than serfs. In
Odessa matters were not better than in Dantzic, because the roads were
not only bad, but the corn was brought by bullocks, and they were
so scarce that very little competition need be feared from that quar-
ter for many years. It had been said that an immense inundation
of corn might be expected from America ; but there was a great
want of capital in America also, and labour was very high there,
and the cultivation of the land net good. (Me Hon. Member then
read a speech delivered at Albany, by a member of an agricultural
society, to show that the corn crops of that State were often defi-
cient, and did not in some years average twelve bushels an acre. In
the course of the debate many allusions had been made as to what
would be the remunerative price to a farmer; and he should then
say that, in his opinion, a more difficult question could not be put,
for if there existed a diversity of opinion en any question, the present
was the very one.—(Hear, hear.) If they looked at the great im-
provement that had taken place in agriculture, they would find that
a corresponding improvement had taken place hi manufactures. If
they took the history of the country for many years past, they would
find that, where an improvement took place in agriculture, a corres-
ponding rise took place in manufactures. This fact was evident in
the year 1760, when manufactures began to rise in importance.
Where large towns sprang up, and the population rapidly
increased, the two branches were most flourishing, and
his opinion on that point was backed by the best authorities.
lie mentioned a remarkable circumstance regarding Spain. The
Spanish people had pursued a system of restriction with respect to
their colonies, and nothing but distress and disaster occurred. At
last new counsels prevailed, and a better system was adopted. What
was the consequence ? The colonies immediately flourished, and the
people of Spain obtained great advantage from their improved con-
dition. This was in 1765. What was tht strongest feature of the
case was, that Cadiz, which was the place most opposed to the
change, was the principal places that was benefited by it. Another
circumstance which he would refer to was the great im-
provement made by the formation of turnpike roads. When

they were first talked of there was a great apprehension that
they would be a serious loss to their land, but it was
well known to what extent, as Adam Smith had shown,
they had increased the value of those lands which it had been sup-
posed they would have injured. But he would new revert to the
most important point which had been opened in this debate, viz.,
the way in which the measure would affect the condition of the
poor. It had been asserted that with high prices there were always
thought it
and
doulhde
hi 411 wages. Such might be the case if the estimates were to he
1 He
each tli
taken from long periods ; but he believed, that if the times were
great distress.
illo ved
taken when there had been periods of greats scarcjty they had
balewabyeteterprtooTteadkepetrhioe eadyserfs as th
e
found that in 1795, when the harvest was deficient, that wheat had
been 61. 6s. per quarter. In 1776, when the crop was better, it was
565. a
deficient quarter. In 1797, the corn ha I been bad in quality,
and
in quantity ; it had risen considerabl I
and the stock had been so kept down, that in 1799 wheat
heel
price,
to 925. 7d. a quarter. In 1800, when the ham, t had beetriisen
ex-
tremely
bad, it was up as high as 105 s. per quarter. And In 1801,when the same harvest still continued deficient, it had risen tolo
and bread was as high as 8s ,
Is. 10% d. the four-pound loaf. The corn-
law. had no advantage is those for whose benefit it had been
established. It could not be possible to name a period in which
greater fluctuation in prices had taken place than from 1814 down
to the present time. He fully agreed in the sentiments expressed
by the Right Non. Gentleman the Secretary at War. The
corn-law had not worked so well as many lion. Gentle-
men supposed for -the welfare of the agriculturists.
Let them consider how the shipping interest had been
influenced by it. Nothing was so injurious to that interest as great
fluctuation in prices. Under a corn-law they had sudden demand for
foreign corn, which brought sudden demand for shipping. Freightage
of course rese, and the shipowners got great profits, but the moment
a variation in price took place, then the demand for shipping ceased,
and a vet), considerable loss was sustained. It should be
the object of the Government, when they reflected on the
poverty of their fellow-countrymen, to extend the means of
supplying them with the necessaries of life, by permitting
corn to be imported, not only from Europe, but America.—(Hear.)
lie did not believe that it was by unduly swelling any one interest
to an unnatural proportion that the well-being of the country could
be secured, but by cordially assisting to make equal laws fur all, that
the symmetry and vigour of the whole State' could be preserved. If
the permanent prosperity of this country was desirable, it could only
be decreed by equal laws. For these reasons, Sir, I shall support the
measures of her Majesty's Government—believing, as I do, that they
are based on principles of sound policy; and that they are calculated
to promote the general interests of the empire. It is not by swelling
into unhealthy, because unnatural proportion, any particular in-
terest, but by fostering the general well-being of the state, that the
life-blood is best distributed to every member, and the symmetry and
vigour of the whole preserved. I think that the true prosperity of
agriculture must rest, not on the enactments of year statute-book,
but on the energy and enterprise breathed into it by the spirit of your
free institutions, and guarded by the fence of your equal laws. And
if looking beyond the immediate precincts of this island I regard the
remote countries and the distant nations to which British commerce
extends—

"The shores watered by her wealthy tides,"
if I view her diffusing comforts, kindling enterprise, stimulating in-
dustry, quickening into life the germs of social excellence, and
seddinreilgfgaironali dwiedaentnhoetin
refrainvigora my
t beams of civilisation,asseiato liberty,
pure
mea-
sures which, by giving further development to com-
merce, will diffuse such blessings to the human race. I
ask you not to consent to this measure from any dread of popu-
lar agitation, or from any wish to keep in power a particular Ad-
ministration—l feel that such moth-es would be unworthy of us as
Legislators, and as loyal English gentlemen; and while dissentinK
from the judgment of Hon. Gentlemen who oppose these measures,
I honour and admire their firmness. But I call on the House to
come to a decision on this question with their hearts—to use the
simple and elegant language of that prayer with which we ausplcate
ear daily proceedings in this House—with our hearts free from
" partial interests, prejudices, or private affections," and to 'give that
vote which, by laying on durable foundations the future greatness
and prosperity of this mighty empire, may conduce to the welfare o'
the countless millions who are subject to its sway or dependent on
its destinies.

Mr. It. A. FITZGERALD said, that untd a recent period he had
no intention of occupying a seat on the benches of that House, or
troubling Hon. Gentlemen with his opinions. However, witnessing
the awful visitation which it had pleased Providence to inflict on his
country, and dreading the consequences that might follow, he
thought it his bounden duty to attend there, and urge as far as his
humble ability would allow him, to impress on the minds of her Ma-
jesty's Ministers the necessity of taking immediate steps to prevent
the horrors consequent on pestilence in that important portion of the
British Empire.—(Hear, hear.) It was with no small gratifi-
cation he had listened to the speech of the Right Hen. Baronet at
the head of the Ministry the other night, and most cordially and
warmly did he corroborate every statement made by him—most
willingly did he concur in every opinion advanced by that Right
Hon. Gentleman; aid most grateful did he feel, also, to the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, for the
anxiety ho had evinced in bringing forward measures for the pro
motion and eneonragement of employment-- thus giving the people
of Ireland it fi1e411.4 of providing food, of which they stood sO mucal