The Sun.
London, England, 1848-04-01 00:00:00

HORSHAM.

The Earl of MARCH moved that the Clerk of the
Crown be directed to issue s writ for the election of a
burgess to serve in Parliament for Horsham.

Mr. HUME said, if he had been,enabled to bring on his
motion on this subject, it was his intention to hare sug•
tested to the House the propriety of not only suspending
the writ for Horsham, but for every place the election
for which had been declared to be void, on account of
bribery and treating by Committees of the House, until
further inquiry by newly-appointed Committees had
been made into the allegations. He considered such a
course absolutely necessary if the House wished to
maintain its character before the country, and
if they wished to discountenance such pro-
ceedings as those which had been proved to have
taken place at Horsham and other places, they must take
upon themselves the task of doing so, for they could not
expect individual Members to go to the expense of
doing so.--(Hear, hear.) From the evidence taken
before the Horsham Committee it appeared that the peti-
tioning candidate stated that having got what he wanted,
he did not wish to proceed to any further inquiry into
the allegations of the petition. He had thought that
Harwich, which was an extreme case, should have been
made an example for the proceedings that had taken
place, interfered with the free representation of the people
in that House. From the evidence to which he had
referred, it appeared, according to the testimony of one
witness, that the night before the election, about 160
out of the 300 persons who voted, were kept drinking
and listening to music until four the next morning.
Surely this was derogatory to the character of the House.
He felt it his duty to move as an amendment to
the motion of the Noble Lord, " That in all cases
where Committees of this Housee have declared
the seat of any Honourable Member void through bri-
bery or treating, this House will, with a view of promoting
purity of election, suspend the issue of any new writ until
a Select Committee had entered into an inquiry as to
the extent of the bribery and treating in every such
county, city, or borough." He should most certainly
take the sense of the House on that amendment.
Lord COURTENAY said that, as chairman of the

Horsham Election Committee, he wished to make
a few observations to the House upon the subject
then before it. He should feel it his duty to
support the motion of the Noble Lord for the
issue of the writ, because, in his opinion, no facts had
been proved before the Committee to lead to any conclu-
sion sufficient to justify a refusal to issue the writ.—
(Hear, hear.) The minutes of the evidence as laid
before the House contained nothing which would
warrant the refusal of the writ. In consequence of the
withdrawal of the petitioners from any further pro-
ceedings in the case, the Committee thought it right, in
accordance with the powers granted to them by the 5
and 6 Victoria, to institute further inquiries, in order to
ascertain whether the result would justify the Committee
in making a special report to the House. The Com-
mittee called before them the agents upon both sides,
and from each of them they received the most distinct
disavowal of the impressions which certainly had existed
in the minds of the Committee, that a compromise had
existed between the parties. It was distinctly stated
by one of the agents that a proposal to with-
draw from the inqury had beep made by the agent
on the other side, but that proposition did not in the
least degree arise from any wish to keep back evidence
with respect to bribery. The counsel for the parties
admitted that the sitting Member was guilty of treating;
and the Committee felt that they were bound, in the
discharge of their duty, to institute the inquiries
they had ; and the result of those inquiries had been
that, in the opinion of the Committee, there was not
sufficient evidence to justify them in making a special
report to the House. It might be a subject worthy the
consideration of the House whether, in prospective cases,
powers might not be given to Committees to make spe
cial reports in such cases, when the evidence did not
extend to that length which it was now required it
should do.

Mr. SHAFTO ADAIR, as a member of the late
Horsham Committee, begged to corroborate the state
ments of the Noble Lord (the chairman of the Com-
mittee), who had just sat down. He should
support the motion of the Noble Lord for the
issuing of the writ, being. decidedly of opinion
chat nothing hid .been brought before the Committee
that ought to induce the House to suspend its issuing.
The Honourable Member then went at some length
into the facts of what took place before the
Committee, stating that, in his view, nothing
like an attempt at compromise had taken place, and sug-
gested, after what had taken place before Election Com-
mittees of that House, whether it would not be well for
the House to adopt some system in order to put an end
to the useless litigation that took place before them.
. Sir JOHN HANMER said it was clear from these
frequent eases of corruption that the constituency of the
country was not in a satisfactory state, and he should
vote for the postponement of the issuing of the writ, in
the hope that it would have the effect of inducing the
House to pass a measure for remedying the evils. For his
part he was prepared to go into a thorough reform of
the elective franchise, and sooner or later Parliament
would be forced to take upon themselves the duty of
adopting some steps for guardding against a repetition of
these instances of corruption.—(hear, hear.) Discontent
already began to m tnifest itself in the country upon this
subject, and the House would do well to take the matter
in hand at once. At all events, whether it did or not,
the House might be satisfied of this: there was an
agitation going on out of doors that would shortly
force upon it the duty of considering the propriety of
an amelioration of the elective franchise.—(Hear, hear )
Sir D. L. EVANS thought the House ought not to
teal too leniently with these cases, however light they
(night appear in the reports of the Committees. Only a
fractional part of the corruption of general elections
Name before these Committees. He knew a large city
which, at the last election, had forty five public-houses
open tor six months before the election.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) Such things were disgraceful to the country and
co the House ; and it was high time, as soon as the case
was proved, that an example should be made by the
suspension of the writ.
Mr. BAILEY was understood to support the issuing
,f the writ. _ _

The Earl of MARCH said that some Hon. Gentlemen
•)pposite admitted they had not read the evidence, and
he thought they could not have read even the report.
Dien• was nothing in either to warrant the suspension
of the writ.
Mr. SHERIDAN, a member of the Committee, sup-
ported the issuing of the writ. He denied that any sus-
picious circumstances came before the Committee to
,-xcite the suspicion of compromise, beyond the fact• of
the sudden abandonment of the defence on the ground of
undeniable treating. Nevertheless, the Committee were
determined to sift the matter to the bottom ; and he
doubted whether they had not gone too far in requiring
a of the parties bribed. At all events, this was the
view taken by the counsel for the petitioners. Had there
been any evidence of a compromise the Committee would
have reported accordingly. The contrary being the case
they were justified in their resolution, that there was no
call for a special report.
Mr. WAKLEY thought it would be unjust to the
electors of this country to issue the writ. The election
had been declared void through treating: and was it fair
to punish only the candidate, and not the parties who
led him into the error by their corrupt propensities ?
They were infinitely more deserving of punishment than
the candidate; and on that ground ho would suspend
the writ.—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that two very distinct ques-
tions were involved—one with respect to the conduct of
this Election Committee, whether they had acted with
due regard to the law; another, as to the course the
Rouse should pursue, supposing the conduct of the
Committee to be irreproachable. lie thought the
Committee had pursued a course in conformity with
their duty, and had exercised their discretion very fairly.
One question before them, and to which their attention
was directed by the Act of Parliament, was, whether
there had been any compromise between the parties,
and whether one party had refrained from going into
evidence of bribery with the view of preventing the pro-
secution of the petition. The Committee had inquired
into the facts relating to that circumstance, and
had come to the opinion that there had been
no such compromise. Ho entirely gave credit to
the Committee, and thoughtere w
theyas a re
had torso
e intothae
right decision. Then there
Act that further inquiry andif investigation
Committeeestigationregraeredointng
bribery should take place.
o
mtheantdedit
recommendation; Bu t th i s
tis°na in the petition respecting bribery, those had not
Committeef
ralthough could
there not
w re well
ai mleagkae.
been gone into, and could not be gone into, by the
luded from
hear.) Under
rnk Committee,isuhaandreceoenmsme gethiednattliyent.h_eyowieearre, prec
these circumstances he saw no occasion for suspending
the writ.—(near, hear) One of the allegations was, that
there had been g;.,
and that such bribery the
as open and notorious in
gross, extensive, and systematic bribery,
borough. Though hadhew
liament referred to, he
oaub,:ahinalflegmatiotnhsemwerae
specialmale
should have been ver • thoughtglad
it was defective,
introduced the Act ofhPdahre
given to the House, w?iegesa had a special powera been
to order the case
Select Committee, and toto further tried by a
report. In this case there could rob
no such special
before this writ issued, that there should itiernsoi
report. Still lie was disposed to think it
Elear, hear.)
Inquiry respecting the alleged bribery,_( near,
further be
fit
He thought the case was one of so much suspicion that
it was right for the House to institute further inquiry
however, to agree to the amen,-
He was not prepared,

ment of the Hon. Member for Montrose, because it was
too general in its character. The allegation of bribery
might be made only with regard to one or two electors,
and might not affect the general character of the
borough. If the allegation affected the general cha-
racter of the borough, it was desirable that further in-
quiry should be made.
Mr. BANKES said the Committee were unanimous in
the opinion to which they had come. Nothing appeared
before them to induce a suspicion that there had been a
compromise. He was prepared to support the view of
the Noble Lord if he thought there should be a further
inquiry.
Sir H. PEEL said that the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose proposed by his amendment that the House should
abandon its discretio❑ respecting the issuing of writs,
where Members were charged with bribery or treating,
till there was a previous inquiry by a Select Committee.
He thought it was desirable to institute an inquiry where
particular charges of bribery were made against the
sitting Member, but he doubted the policy of depriving
themselves of all discretion in every case where a Mem-
ber might be unseated on a charge of treating. He
thought it better that they should decide on each parti-
cular case, and not deprive themselves of all discretion
by the adoption of an inflexible rule.—(Hear, hear.) He
understood the Noble Lord to propose the suspension of
the writ, not for an indefinite period, but till a further
inquiry was instituted, and in that case he was prepared
to support him.

Atier a few words from Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY,
The Earl of ~LARCH withdrew his motion.

Mr. HUME said that having obtained the object he
had in view, he would also withdraw his amendment.
The issuing of the writ for Horsham is therefore sus-
pended in order that further inquiry may take place.
THE NAVIGATION-LAWS.

In answer to Mr. J. B. SMITH,
Mr. LABOUGHERE said that the Hon. Gentleman
had asked two questions: the first was whether a cargo
of cotton arriving at Havre from the United States
could be admitted into this country, no part of the
cargo haring been discharged? If a cargo so imported
entered under the American or British flag, it might
come to this country as if the vessel had come direct
from the United States, although it might have first
entered the port of Havre. The second question was
whether a cargo of cotton arriving under the French
flag would be allowed to come into this country under
the French flag; and whether the Government would
make a special exception in this case in consequence of
the cotton being unsaleable in Havre? He could only
say that the admission of cotton under the French flag
would be a distinct violation of the navigation-laws,
which they could not take upon themselves.
In answer to Mr. BRIGHT,
Mr. LABOUCIIERE said that, in the present state of
public business, it was impossible to fix any time for
bringing forward the subject of the navigation laws; but
full notice would be given when the Government were
prepared to bring the question before the house.
POOR LAWS.
In answer to Lord G. BENTINCK,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
what he had stated in the debate on the income-tax was,
that upwards of 600,0001. poor-rates had been paid for
the relief of the poor in Ireland for four months, and at
that rate that upwards of 2,000,0001. would have been
expended in the year for the relief of the poor. The
sum expended for the relief of the poor in England and
Wales up to Lady-day, 1847, was 5,250,0001; and the
estimate of the probable expenditure up to Lady-day in
the present year would be between 200,0001. or 300,0001.
more. He was not able to say what was the amount
expended in Scotland. . . .

Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to know whether the sum
of 600,0001. 'paid in Ireland included any sums fur the
repayment of money expended in relief works, or for the
advances to certain districts in Ireland under the recent
Act.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the whole amount was expended for the relief of the
poor.
Mr. P. SCROPE said the rates for the next four
months were not likely to be so productive as those of the
preceding four months.
Mr. DISRAELI wished to know whether the 600,0001.
included any arrears?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXMEQUER said
that he could only say that 600,0001. was the amount
paid .
Sir H. W. BARRON said the House would not come to
a just conclusion unless they knew the amount of pro-
perty rated to the poor in England and Ireland.
BALTIC TRADE.

Mr. J. CLAY wished to know from the Noble Lord
(Palmerston) whether the Government had taken any
steps to protect British trade in the ports of the Baltic,
in consequence of the events which were passing there?
Lord PALNIEBSTON said that no measures had
been taken, the Government having no reason to suppose
that any would be necessary.—(Hear, hear.)
CROWN COLONIES.

Mr. FORSTER, wished to ask the Under Secretary
of the Colonial-office when the promised measure for giv-
ing self. government to the Crown colonies, and other
British possessions not haring legislative and repre-
sentative assemblies, would be brought under the consi-
deration of the House.

Mr. lIAWES said that he was only waiting for an
opportunity to introduce such a Bill with respect to
Australia.
Mr. HUNIE wished to know whether the Bill would
extend to Van Diemen's Land.
Mr. HAWES said it was under consideration whe-
ther Van Diemen's Land would be included in the Bill
or not. With regard to the other colonies, it was not
in contemplation to intruduce any Bill (as was under-
stood).
THE CASE OF MR. POLLETT.—COUNTY
CO URTS.

Mr. B. COCHRANE said that having brought under
the notice of the Rouse on a former occasion the case of
Follett, who had been sent to prison fir contempt of
court, because he was not able to pay a debt he owed, be
begged to mention another case which was equally hard,
and of which he hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would
also take cognizance. The present was the case of a
man who owed 2/. 65., and because be was not able to
pay he was sent to prison, had to mix with felons, to
pick oakum, and to lie on an iron bedstead. It the law
permitted such great hardships, the sooner it was changed
the better. _ _

Su. G. GREY said he apprehended the court had the
power of committing a fraudulent debtor who contracted
debts without a possibility of being able to pay. With
regard to the case of Pollett, he had written to the
visiting justices and received their report. He addressed
a letter to them since then, calling their attention to the
regulations which ought to be enforced in prisons, and
which if enforced would prevent Pollett from being
treated as a felon. He had not seen any account of the
other case to which the Hon. Gentleman referred. _ _

After a few words from Mr. COCIIRANE and Mr.
BAILLIE,

Mr. BERNAL said he thought the rules and regula-
tions for the internal management of prisons in the me-
tropolis should be exhibited to the proper authorities of
the department over which his Right Hon. Friend pre-
sided. The cases stated by the Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site were of a most intolerable nature.—(Hear.)
SICILY.
Mr. lIUME wished to know whether Lord Minto was
interfering between Naples and Sicily as an authorised
agent of th,, Government ? As it was important that
they should keep aloof from the suspicion of interreed-
dling with other states, he hoped he should receive a
satisfactory answer.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that Lord Minto had cre-
dentials to the Court of Naples, and, having been re-
quested by the King of Naples and his Ministers to
interpose the good offices of this country for the pur•
pose of making terms with Sicily, Lord Minto, as the
representative of an ally of the King of Naples, thought
he could do no less than interpose in that measure, and
he proceeded in a ship of war with such terms as he
thought would be satisfactory to Sicily. But though he
proceeded in a ship of war it was not his intention to
use any force, and he went there merely with a view
of rendering a friendly service.

Mr. lILISiE Moped that as the King of Naples bad
now abdicated, his interference would cease.
EVICTIONS IN GALWAY.

Mr. SCROPZ said that the subject of which ho had
given notice was of sufficient importance to be brought
forward in going iiito Committee of Supply, but as the
subject was under the consideration of Government, and
as they intended to introduce a measure for the purpose
of putting an end to those frightful and shocking evie•
tions which were taking place in Ireland, he would be
content to leave the matter in their hands. It was ne-
cessary, however, that the measure should be speedy and
thorough, because ejectments to an enormous extent
were about to take place. There were 6,000 ejectments
served in one union alone. The Bill should not be con-
fined to illegal ejectments, because cases of a more
frightful and terrific character took place under the form
of law, as in the case of Balling, where 140 families were
turned out of their homes in mid winter by Mr. Walsh,
who was an attorney, and therefore well knew what , he
was about. He would, however, leave the matter in the
hands of the Government.
Mr. OSBORNE thought the course which the Govern-
ment and the Hon. Gentleman had taken reflected credit
on both parties.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. FRENCH said the conduct of the lion. Member
for Stroud was deserving of censure for bringing for-
ward charges against the Irish landlords night after
night, which he did not proceed with, so as to give
others an opportunity of answering them. He could
show that his charges had no foundation in truth.
Mr. REYNOLDS thought the lion. Member for
Stroud was deserving of praise, instead of censure, for
the manner in which he took up this question.—(Hear,
hear.) The last charge ho brought against the Irish
landlords was founded on official authority, that of
Major WKie.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared in the report
of the Central General Relief Committee of Ireland, over
which the Marquis of Kildare presided, that 580 pa-
rishes, including one-fourth of the country, had sent
returns, which were substantiated by the parochial
clergy, and from these returns it appeared that up to
December, 1847, no less than 35,166 individuals died of
actual starvation; 94,007 had died from diseases caused
by bad and insufficient food; 68,140 were at that date
labouring under disease, and 62,756 had emigrated.
But 90,000 had emigrated to Canada, and of these the
lion. Member for Kinsale (Mr. Hawes) admitted that
15,000 died. If he took the entire of Ireland it would
appear from this statement that not less than 1,000,000
human beings had been swept off the face of the earth
for want of food. Could the parallel of this melancholy
fact be found in the history of any civilised, or even
uncivilised nation? The people of Ireland felt that
re, and
tnhoetyh bn egg ca
onu tl od despairma make
t hoefmj u swt ?ere' r otmh atnh a tthleio uws ee.
Mr. STAFFORD did not think the conduct of the

lion. Member for Stroud was open to the criticism of
the Hon. Member for Roscommon. He observed that
there were some omissions of correspondence in the blue
book relating to the evictions in Galway, which might

in some degree modify facts ; but, allowing for all de-
ductions on that ground, there was enough left to shock
and horrify any human being.—(hear, hear.) It should
be recollected that the legislation of that House was not
wholly blameless. It was, in fact, particeps criminis, for
it held out the strongest inducements and temptations
to the landlords of Ireland to make those evictions.

Sir G. GREY really did hope the House would not
now enter into a general discussion on the state of Ire-
land and the Irish poor-law. lie believed the poor-law,
whatever might be the difficulties of its operation, had
greatly mitigated the distress existing in Ireland. With
regard to the particular question before the House, he
would only say that the Government had no reason to
disbelieve the statement of Major M'Kie. The Govern-
men felt that sufficient powers were not given under the
law for the protection of evicted parties, and a measure
was under their consideration with reference to the
subject.—(hear, hear.)
Sir 11. W. BARRON said Ireland would be quite
satisfied if they had a Lonei fide poor-law such as they
had in England. Members ran away with the idea that
the laws were the same, but in reality they were mate-
rially different. The Irish law was a palpable failure,
and was pauperising a large proportion of the farmers of
the country. With respect to the evictions complained
of, he staked his veracity and experience that in nine-
teen cases out of twenty, if the facts were really sifted,
the evidence against the landlords would break down.
Half the charges were pure falsehoods or gross exagge-
rations.
Sir G. GREY said if the Hon. Member would inform
him of a single case in which the statements of the blue
book were untrue or exaggerated, he would strictly
sift it.
Sir IL W. BARRON said it would be impossible for
him to point to cases. Many of the people charged
really did not know that they were accused.
Mr. FAGAN highly eulogised the general conduct of
Mr. P. Scrope. He thought the gratitude of Ireland
was due to the Hoa. Member for bringing forward the
case of Mr. Blake. He should like to ask the Govern.
ment whether it was intended to publish the correspond-
ence relative to that transaction ? He also wished to
direct the attention of the Government to the evictions
now going on upon an estate in the rralee union under
the authority of the Court of Chancery. Upwards of
500 miserable persons had been evicted.

Mr. MONSELL said that having read the blue book
with considerable attention, he felt bound to say that
the statement therein contained appeared to him to be
drawn up with great care and attention.
Mr. R. M. FOX asked whether the returns relating
to the Chancery estates in Ireland were prepared?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said he believed the papers
were on the tible of the House.
Mr. OSBORNE said that was a mistake. The return
was in manuscript, but it was not printed, and was likely
to occupy some time in going through the press in con-
sequence of its voluminous character.
Mr. IILrME appealed to the Go►ernment to bring the
whole subject of Ireland under the consideration of the
House.

The order of the day was then read, and the House
went into a Committee of
SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.

Mr. F. MAULE then rose. He said it was now his
duty to propose to the House the amount of force which
her Majesty's Government had thought necessary to
propose for the ensuing year for the defence of this
country and its dependencies. The question as to the
amount of force to be maintained in this country was
one which depended upon the Executive Government,
and any refusal to grant this force, which any Govern
ment thought proper to propose, would be in a great
degree expressive of a want of confidence in that House.
If the Government, therefore, had committed the fault
of sending this vote to a Committee up-stairs, they
would of course materially have neglected the perform-
ance of their duty. Accordingly, he had to propose
that a force of 113,847 men be voted for the year en-
suing, exclusive of the force in the East India Corn-
pany'a service. He could assure the House that that
estimate had been drawn up with every regard to eco-
nomy. Now, there were two objections taken to this
vote. The first was, that a court of inquiry had ex-
isted ; and the second was, that the force was unne-
cessarily large. With respect to the first point he
begged the House to compare the estimates of the
present year with those for 1828, which would show
that whilst our force had been increased, its propor-
tionate cost had been considerably reduced. In 1835,
again, the number of officers for whom a charge was
made, was 4,405, whilst this year we had 4,800 officers,
and the rank and file were in proportion; but the charges
were by no means so high in proportion as they were
in 1835. As compared, therefore, with 1835 there had
been no want of economy whatever on the part of the
present Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman then
stated the details of the various economical arrange-
ments that had been effected during past years. But
the next question to consider was, whether the force
proposed was too large a force for the country to main-
tain in the present state of affairs in Europe and the
civilised world. He did not found his demand for an
increased number of men upon the state of things beyond
the Channel, for the estimates were framed before that
state of things arose. He relied upon the general expe-
diency which called for a thoroughly effective military
force. The condition of Ireland, more especially at
present, rendered it necessary that the military establish-
ment there should certainly not be diminished, and our
wide spread colonies, our military stations in the Mediter-
ranean, and in every part of the world, required the main-
tenet-ice of an adequate force, not merely in the respective
localities, but as a reserve at home for the relief,
from time to time, of those foreign settlements. In
Canada, where our frontier, needing constant watching.
had been gradually extending itself, an increase of
military force had been matter of absolute necessity. A
similar increase had become essential in Bermuda, in
New Zealand, and at Hong Kong, a new settlement pe
culiarly requiring effective protection. The new system
of rotation of foreign service was effecting the highly
desirable object of limiting the lowest period of foreign
service for our infantry regiments to twelve years, a
result.:most beneficial to the physical condition of the
troops, and which, by rendering the service more attrac-
tive, would lessen the military expenditure in limiting
the necessity for recruiting. As to any reduction in the
number of our troops, whether at home or abroad, he
regarded it as wholly impossible. No man, he believed,
would say that in the present state of Ireland any troops
could be withdrawn from that country.—(Hear, hear.)
There were at this moment in Ireland 26,000 troops,
scattered over 150 stations. In no part of her Majesty's
dominions had soldiers more harrassing duties to per-
form, and he would add nothing could be more exem-
plary than the conduct of the troops had been during
the past year.—(Hear, hear. ); England, too, required the
full amount of the troops now maintained, and of the
addition he proposed. In England and Scotland, on the
Bth of March, there were 26,474 infantry, and 3,553
cavalry, 30,000 in all, being one soldier to 1,000 of the
population. He could not suppose that any Hon. Gen-
tleman would, on reflection, consider that this was too
large a military force for the protection of this wealthy
country at once from domestic violence, and from the
chance of foreign aggression. He hoped the House,
therefore, would consent to no reduction in these
estimates. The present was peculiarly a moment
when this country should not wear even the aspect of
weak ness.—( Hear, hear.)
The vote was then put from the chair (113,847 men,
exclusive of the troops in the East Indies).
Mr. HUME expressed his approbation at the manner
in which the present Government managed the army,
and the active steps they had adopted for improving its
moral tone. As to the extent of the army, that was
another thing. It was extremely natural in the Right
Honourable Gentleman to desire to give his parti-
cular department an aspect of the utmost complete-
ness, of even display; but the question for the House
of Commons was, whether the number of troops de
mended exceeded the actual necessity of the case,
and whether adequate efficiency could not be attained
at less outlay, more especially in the existing condition
of our finances. The Right lion. Gentlemaa might
very well say that these were not times in which an ade-
quate military force should be kept up, but these wore
also times in which no money should be laid out, for
this or any other purpose, than the actual wants of the state
necessitated. Now, in his clear conviction, the number
of troops demanded did exceed the actual wants of the
State, for he regarded the apprehensions under which
the Government purported to proceed us mere delu-
sions. The Right Hon. Gentleman had adverted to
the circumstance that the estimates were framed before
the new state of things on the continent. Now, in his
(Mr. Hume's) opinion, we were in a much better posi-
tion since the manifestation of this new state of things
than we were before it ; infinitely less liable to the risk
of war, and less called upon, therefore, to increase our
military forces. He was convinced that if we did not
meddle with other nations, there was no other nation at
all disposed to meddle with us. The various powers of
the continent had quite enough to do to mind their own
business, and we ourselves, for that matter, were likely
to have quite enough occupation in the same way.—
(Hear, hear.) In 1831 we had only 80,000
troops—why were we now to be saddled with the
maintenance of 113,000 troops ? There was even less
necessity for 80,000 men than there was ten or fifteen
years ago, for since that time an effectual police force
had been created both in Ireland and in England, who
answered many of the purposes of protection to life and
property which tho military had previously fulfilled.
His Right Hon. Friend had asserted that the docks,
warehouses, and depots were public property which
demanded protection, and the home army was useful in
that respect; but was there not the civil force available
for the purposes of domestic police? He did not desire
to discharge
The proposed reduction could be effected by stopping
a single man from the army by his motion.
the recruiting service, which gave 12,000 men every
year to the service. The number of troops would then
be reduced within the year to 100,000 men. With re •
spect to the colonies he thought that they ought to be
taught to govern themselves, and then the troops now
required there would be unnecessary. If the colonies
were equitably treated they would at the present mo-
ment have been at their own expense for self-defence.
The motion he was about to make was only the first
step towards the final reduction which he urged. He
contemplated a further reduction of 30,000 men within
the next few years. What he had to move was, that the
number of troops be reduced to 100,000 men, which was
the amount of men voted three years ago, and 20,000
more than were voted in 1835.
The motion
Montrose,
chair,
Mr. V. SMITH did not agree with the Hon. Member
for Mont
and amendment having been put from the
, that the aspect of Europe presented no-
thing to induce the House to assent to the demand of
the Government for the number of men proposed in the
estimate before them. It might happen that some of
the European nations would have enough to do at home;
but it was also
possible that one or more of them might
turn their attention to foreign powers, with a view of
getting rid of their internal difficulties. He (Mr. V.
Smith) did see the possibility of a redaction in the army

being effected, but not an immediate one. The colonial
service was one that admitted of a great reduction in
the army, by teaching them to rely upon themselves for
their own defence; and in this opinion the Hon. Member
for Oxford, and his Right lion. Friend the Member for
Coventry, had on a former occassion expresssed their
assent.

Mr. B. OSBORNE said, that when the estimates were
first proposed he was of opinion, considering Europe was
in a state of profound peace, the number of men de-
manded was too great, but the recent events that had
occurred had tended to modify his opinion, lie objected
to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule) taking the
year 1835 as that which gave a proper standard for the
number of troops. The standing army, which was in-
troduced by Charles 11., a King of whom the nation
ought ever to entertain the deepest abhorrence, had gone
on increasing ever since in numbers. The number of the
field officers at three different epochs would show how
tho expenses had gone on increasing. He would take the
year 1783, at the close of the American war; the year
1798, when the French war comrnssced; and the present
year. In 1783 the number of field officers was 824, in
1799 it was 1,863, and in 1848, a period of profound
peace, the number of field officers had swelled to 2,106,
showing a greater proportion of field officers than was
required to officer a French army of 400,000 men. The
expenditure of the army during the 32 years of
peace amounted to no less than 445 millions sterling.
He should not have troubled the House with these
details, had he not conceived that he could point out the
means of effecting a great saving in the army estin-,ates.
The proposnl which he had to bring under the notice of
the Committee divided itself into three distinct heads.
First, the consolidation of all the different departments
of the army into one; secondly, by effecting a consider-
able
reform in the expenditure; and, thirdly, by reducing
the number of men. The army was divided into three
branches—cavalry, infantry, and ordnance; and all three
had separate official establishments, without any one
central head. There were the Commander-in-Chief and
the Secretary at War; but they might be at issue on the
most important points of regulation. The Committee of
1837 had recommended that the greater portion of autho
rity over the army should be vested in the Secretary at
War, who for that purpose was to be made a member of
the Cabinet. He would ask why had not her Majesty's
present Ministers carried out that plan, seeing that the
report of 1837 was signed by three of the most influen
tial of their body ?—(Hear.) The Board of Ordnance
consisted of seven members, whose salaries amounted to
9,000/. a year, which sum might be saved by consoli-
dation. Then there was the commissariat, where
reform might also be effected, but not until the estab-
lishment of a complete system of colonial reform. The
cost of the military establishments were—horse-guards,
96,0001.; ordnance, 91,000/.; and commissariat, 316,0001.
He would propose to abolish the office of Master-General
of the Ordnance and his five assistants. He world also
abolish the Secretary-at-War and his deputy.—(oh, oh.)
He maintained it was quite possible to do so—and also
the Judge Advocate and his deputy. These two reduc-
tions would save B,OOOL a year. There was the agency
also, which might safely be abandoned. It cost
32,000/. a year, and he did not see any necessity there
was for its The Indian army had no agency, and its
stations were much more distant than ours. Then
there were such things as sinecures in the army. The
colonels of regiments might in his opinion be safely
done away with. The duty was all done by the lieu-
tenant-colonels, and, besides, the manner in which the
colonels were paid was disgraceful to themselves and
the army.—(Hear, hear.) Then profits on clothing
were calculated at 6001. a year for each battalion, so that
when a regiment contained two battalions the colonel's
profit on the clothing was 2,2001. a year. In
this way 95,000/. per annum might be saved.—(Hear,
hear.) He found that there were 387 generals on the
army list, of whom 147 were colonels of regiments, re-
ceiving in that capacity an aggregate of 90,000/. a year.
The second majors were almost useless, and might easily
be dispensed with, and there 45,000/. more might be
saved. The next point to which he would call the at-
tention of the Committee was the system of brevet rank.
It olegained in no service but ours, and was the cause of
great and useless expense. Then, in the miscellaneous
expenses, there were a great many items which might be
done away with. For instance, tho table allowance at
Dublin and St. James's was quite useless, and cost the
country 32,0001. a year. Another great anomaly of
the British army was to be found in the ordnance de-
partment. Our army was the only army in the world
in which the artillery was an insulated force. In every
other service it was part and parcel of the army. 'With
us they were ruled by a separate board, consisting of
officers, not one of whom had ever served in the depart.
ment over which they were appointed to rule. Under this
head there was charged 825,0001. for stores. Of that
sum he believed that a great portion might be saved if
the stores were taken by contract. The Indian army
was supplied with everything by contract, except pow-
der, and with the most beneficial effects as regarded
economy. Hon. Members had alluded to the auperioriy
of our weapons, but he begged to assure the Committee
that the French muskets were mach superior to ours.
and had a considerably greater range. In all the items
he had enumerated there might be, if his suggestions
were adopted, a saving effected of 570,000/. a year with
out the reduction of a single man.—(Hear, hear.) But
there was yet another saving which had been proposed
by his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose—he
meant a reduction in the number of men. He believed
that before that was effected a general alteration and
reform must take place throughout the whole of our co-
lonial system.—(llear, hear.) A large portion of the
army was required for Ireland, but he believed that i!
Government had taken up Irish questions with much
larger views, and had shown a sincere wish to amelio
rate the condition of the people, Ireland would not be in
her present unsatisfactory condition. He could not sup-
port his lion. Friend's motion for a reduction of 13 000
men; but, nevertheless, he trusted that be should have
his lion. Friend's support in the retrenchments which he
proposed.
' Colonel SIBTIIORP was surprised to hear such
attacks on the British army from one of its own distill
guished officers the Hon. Member for Middlesex.—(A
laugh.) lie (Colonel Sibthorp) maintained that the effi-
ciency of the British army was celebrated all over the
world, and had been proved wherever it had been tested.
He should support the Government against the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member for Montrose.

Sir W. MOLESWORTH, who spoke amidst manifest
signs of impatience from both sides of the House, reca-
pitulated the statements he had made on a previous
evening as to the growing increase of the military ex-
penditure of the country since 1835, which he contended
had been the main cause of the deficiency of the income
as compared with the expenditure in the estimates.
'There would have been no deficit in the present year
had the estimates for the army, navy, and ordnance re-
mained at the same amount as they stood at when the
Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) last came into office, in
1845-6. It was obvious one of three things must
result—either they must reduce the expenditure,
increase the income, or consent to a permanent defi.
cieney. . The inconvenience of the latter course all
must admit ; and whether the income of the country
could bo materially increased, at least for the present,
might well be doubted. The question then was, in what
way the expenditure of the country could be diminished.
First, they had to consider whether, without detri-
ment to the public service, the army could be reduced.
He felt bound to say, that while we maintained our pre-
sent numerous colonial dependencies, no reduction of
any amount could safely be made. The army was now
the hardest worked force of any. lie believed, however,
that by a reform of the colonial system, much of this
force might be dispensed with. He was as much in
favour of colonisation as any man, but he
.thought under
proper arrangements the work of colonisation might be
carried on without military aid. Soldiers were the worst
of colonists. Then what necessity was there for keeping
up so large a military force in this country ? The force
at present kept up at home was much beyond the
average, and he contended that there was nothing in the
state of the country to justify this.—(Oh.) There was
no great question at this time agitating the minds of
the people. The number of men voted last year was
108,000; this year the number proposed was 113,000.
What ground had been stated for this increase ? He
should vote for the number of men being limited to the
number voted last year.—(The Hou. Baronet was fre-
quently interrupted by cries of " Divide").
Mr. COBDEN observed that, where so much impa-
tience was evinced on the question whether they should
vote 7,100,0001. for the army, in addition to 7,900,0001.
for the navy, ho could scarcely hope by anything he
could say to bring back the feeling of the House to a
proper sense of its duty to the country.—(Hear, hear,
and ironical cheering.) His Honourable Friend pro-
posed to reduce the navy expenditure one-sixth, and now
proposed to reduce that of the army one-ninth. [An
lion. Member observed it was not a question of "ex-
penditure," but " men."] But the number of men settled
the whole question.—(Hear, hear.) The Committee of
Inquiry on the army, navy, and ordnance began by de-
claring that they hail no right to interfere with the
number of men, and the question could therefore be only
dealt with by the House. The country was now suffer-
ing heavily from taxation, and anxiously looking for
some remission; but the House by passing these large
items would not leave itself any room for retrenchment.
They could not touch the interest on the national debt,
which was 27,000,0001, nor the unfunded debt, nor the
consolidation fund; and if they now consented to this vote,
they would have disposed of 49,000,000/. of the esti-
mates of the country. When the miscellaneous estimates
were brought forward, it was possible that some mise-
rable trumpery vote about a messenger's wages would
receive a warm opposition ; some patriotic Member
would, perhaps, raise his voice against the expense of
the buckhounds, or against some clap-trap vote of the
kind. But it was only right the country should know
that if that House once allowed these large items of the
public expenditure to pass, there was no hope of retreneh•
ment. Were lion. Gentlemen opposite prepared for
the great discontent which was rising up in the minds of
the people in consequence of the present enormous
weight of taxation.—(ironical cheers and laughter.) Ile
wished that those lion. Gentlemen who jeered and
laughed would come to him score morning and read the
letters which he received on the subject.—(More ironical
cheers.) lie believed that Hon. Gentlemen opposite
had not a single partisan amongst the working classes,
and that they knew little or nothing of the feelings of
the middle classes.—(Cries of " Oh.") He wanted to
know how the Government were to
make up the defi-
ciency of 1,800,0001. on last year and 3,000,0001.
on this. They were now asked to vote away money
before they had got it, and ho wanted to know
how they were to get it. They were not to have
anincreased income-tax. Would the Government
propose any other tax, and if so, what was it to be ?
Would it be a tax on property ? Were they pre-
pared to propose a legacy and probate duty on land?
or would they have recourse to the Bank at the risk of
another panic? It was lamentable to hear talk of the
danger we were in from France, or Russia, or any
other country. The danger was in the state of our
finauces.—(Cries of " Oh.") He repeated what he said

when the vote for the navy was before them—that we
should be stronger with a surplus revenue, and fewer
ships and soldiers, than with an increased armament
and a deficient revenue.—(Hear, hear, and cries of
" Oh.") Hon. Gentlemen talked of the state of Europe,
but the people of Europe were too much engaged with
their own business to come and attack us.—(lronical
cheers.) He would not now attempt any argument on
the subject, but would merely ask if lion. Gentlemen
opposite were ready to incur the discontent of the
working classes at the present amount of taxation?—
(Cries of " Oh.") In their name he protested against
the manner in which the question before the Committee
had been received, against the perfect recklessness with
which the public money was to be voted, and the im-
patience with which any opposition to it was met. He
warned Hon. Gentlemen that they would repent of
having voted money which they had not got to spend.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the impatience referred
to was referable to the topics introduced by Honourable
Gentlemen, and not to the question before the Com-
mittee. All that they had said respecting the details of
finance, the navy estimates, the constitution of the Ord-
nance Board, and so forth, might hare been conceded,
and the question before them, of the number of men,
have been entirely untouched.—(Hear, hear.) Surely
it was no reproach to the Committee that they were im-
patient, seeing that no argument upon those details
could in the least degree assist them in making up their
minds on the question before them—(Dear, hear.) He
admitted, with the Honourable Member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire, that this and similar votes deter-
mined the general amount of expenditure for the present
year, and that reducing small votes, although it might
show a disposition to economise and retrench, would
have little influence on that general expenditure. The
Honourable Member for Southwark was mistaken
in supposing that the Government proposed a
large increase to the naval and military ex-
pense. Since their accession to office, taking the
number of men, which was the great test, they had
only added 3,003 for the navy, and about 3,200 for
the ordnance. That certainly was not so great an in-
li crease as to justify the remarks of that Hon. Baronet.
He said that the Government were now proposing an
addition of 5,000 men to the army, the fact being that
the general amount of the army remained the same. But
it did so happen that men who had been employed in
India, and who were not included in last year's vote,
were included in this. It was admitted that 22,000 men
was not too great a force for India, with its 12,000 miles
of frontier; there were continual demands from Aus-
tralia ; Mauritius must be protected ; Malta and
Gibraltar could not be left without proper garrisons;
and the force of the West Indies must be kept up.
Looking, therefore, to our colonies, and to the rule of
reinforcement by which troops could only be kept ten
years abroad and five at home, there was, he considered,
sufficient ground to justify the estimate proposed. It
had been said that we should seek to defend our institu-
tions, not by military power, but by the affections of the
people. He readily admitted that our case would indeed be
desperate if we had to rely upon the force we now pos-
sessed in order to defend the throne and institutions of the
country.—(Loud cheers.) He quite admitted as much
for Queen Victoria as for Elizabeth, that the best guards
which these could have were to be found in tie affections
of their subjects. It should be recollected that we were
not living in times when every man was a soldier, or in-
structed in military tactics. The state of our society
was such, that a great proportion of the people, being
entirely engaged in pursuits of industry and commerce,
found themselves, in the event of the slightest disturb-
ance, in want of protection.—(Hear, hear.) When he
was in the Home-office he did not think he had ever been
appealed to to defend the institutions of the country; but
he had been often appealed to by manufacturers and
merchants from Lancashire and Yorkshire—(Loud
cheering on the Oppositition benches)—stating that the
amount of troops must be increased, or they would not
be safe where they were; and more than once had be
been told by respectable men that they must take
their wives and families to a different part of the coun-
try unless a greater military force was granted.—(Hear,
hear.) The fact was, that all those alarms and disquie-
tudes which occurred in towns containing from 20,000 to
50,000 inhabitants were caused by about 500 boys from
fifteen to twenty years of age, who went about with
torches, and put the whole town into a state of commo-
tion and disturbance. It was not for protecting
.the
throne and institutions of the country, but in the civi-
lized and social condition of England, for the purpose of
defending the great majority, and saving them from the
disquietude and trouble of arming themselves, the pre-
sent amount of home force was kept up.—(Hear, hear.)
de hoped, therefore, that Hon. Gentlemen would not
think it necessary to repeat such commonplaces.—
(Cheers.) He should have thought, too, that the condi-
tion of foreign affairs was such as to prevent any Mem-
ber of that House from selecting this particular year for
making any reduction in the military or naval force of
the country.—(Hear, hear.) No man could look to
that state of affairs and say that no danger would
spring out of it, or that he was sure of the course which
foreign oountries would take, or the relations that
would exist some time hence between those countries
and this.—(Hear, hear.) Up to the present moment,
he was happy to say, nothing had occurred to induce
England to interfere by a protest, or even by so much
as a remonstrance with any continental state. But
still, although there was nothing which should in-
duce the Government to add to the estimates they
proposed before these troubles broke out over the whole
continent of Europe, he did think it would not be wise
to make any reduction at the present moment. The
Hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire in-
vited them to the consideration of another point—
namely, the great pressure of taxation. That question
had already been urged in the debate on the income tax.
Looking at the distress which prevailed in many parts
of the country, it was_ a fitting subject to consider
whether any of these taxes pressed unduly, or whether
a more equitable apportioning of them ought not to be
made. He deeply deplored the distress and embarrass-
ment which many of our richest and lately flourishing
towns had felt, owing to the scarcity of food and other
visitations. He should therefore have been most happy
to have proposed a great reduction of the army, navy,
and ordnance estimates, if possible; but under the pre-
sent circumstances which pervaded Europe, and what-
ever might be the purport of the letters which the lion.
Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire (Mr. Cobden)
might have in his possession, whatever the remon-
strances which might be made from any quarter, he
(Lord John Russell) thought he would be abandoning
the permanent and general interests of the country to
the ill understood complaints of those who hereafter
might reproach the Government for yielding to them, if
ho did not ask the Committee to agree with the
Government in their proposal of the military force
they now asked, feeling convinced that such a force was
necessary for purposes essential for the safety of this
country.—(Loud cheers.)
sir D. L. EVANS said he had no wish to protract
the discussion, but he must deny the assertion made by
the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) that this
was in fact a war estimate. In tact, the difference be-
tween the present estimate and that of last year was a
decrease of 126 men and an increase of 300 horses. The
truth was, that the present was essentially the same
estimate as that of last year. And what was the regular
force which it was asked to keep up for the defence of
this portion of the kingdom—this very centre of the
British empire. Why, it was only 22,000 men, cavalry,
and infantry. In the course of the discussion America
had been pointed to as setting this country an example
in respect of the redaction of the naval and military
establishment. Though America, owing to the concen-
tration of her dominions, was more secure than this
country, whose territories were spread far and wide,
still America kept up a regular military force of
56,000 men, besides having a militia amounting to
1,300,000 strong. But in this country the Executive
Government were, he must say, placed in a difficulty,
for they were told they must neither have a sufficient
regular military force, nor would they be allowed any
militia whatever. He (Sir D. L. Evans) had to night
waited to hear the Hon. Member for the West Riding
(Mr. Cobden), but that Hon. Member had to-night made
a most inoffensive speech, as compared with those de-
livered elsewhere, which he (Sir D. L. Evans) had read.
To-night the Hon. Member had been much milder than
on former oceasions, for he had talked of the merits of
the army, though formerly he had said much of the
demoralisation of the army and navy, and of the inutility
of both services in times of peace.—(Hear, hear.) Last
year nothing had been heard from the Hon. Member,
except on the subject of free trade, but in the present
session the Hon. Member appeared to have wholly
abandoned his vocation. After having achieved for him-
self an immortal triumph, which had obtained for him
the tributes of every capital in Europe, the Hon. Member
had come back, but had not uttered to the House one
word on the great question of free trade.—(Hear, hear,
from the Protectionists.) Nay, on the lath of February
last the Hon. Member had told the House that in a
great part of Europe, and in France especially, there
existed no other feeling on the part of the people but the
desire for the extension of the principles of tree trade;
but in one single week afterwards it had been found that
these very people were thinking of something wholly
different.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member had on his
return eschewed the question of free trade. He had,
though oft invited, declined to enter upon it unless the
question was put, as he himself said, in some tangible
shape. It was true the Hon. Member had stated that
free trade was settled; but what was the fact? Why,
that on some of the British manufactures 200, 300, and
in some cases 1,000 per cent. duties have been placed by
other nations; and so far from free trade making the
slightest progress in any other country, the matter was
wholly out of the question.—(Hear, hear, from the pro-
tectionists.) He (Sir D. L. Evans) knew not how it
happened that the Hon. Member had taken to naval and
military matters—perhaps, however, during the Hon.
Member's sojourn at Malta, he had become a naval and
military character, and had returned to this country to
regulate both those services.—(A laugh.) Without
wishing to detain the House on many other points, he
(Sir D. L. Evans) must remark, that during the last two
or three weeks he had been invited to attend meetings
which were about to be convened for the purpose
of calling upon her Majesty to dismiss her present min-
isters and to invite the Hon. Member for the West
Riding to take the reins of government into his own
hands.—(Hear, and laughter.) The opinions of the
Hon. Member, therefore, seemed to be held of impor-
tance, and as such he (Sir D. L. Evans) had a perfect
right to remark upon them. He was rejoiced, however,
that her Majesty's government had not thought proper to
yield to the propositions of the Hon. Member, who had
nothing whatever to do with the naval and military de-
partments, but who had declared at many public
wa
meet-
ings that he knew better than the government what
necessary for the defence of this empire, and moreover,s
that on that subject he was a greater authority than the
illustrious chief who was at the head of (ne
service.—
.those
great and important branches of the public
(Hear, hear.) The present question was simply as to
the number of men; and all the details into which the
ARon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) had entered

-
were wholly beside it. He (Sir D. L. Evans) concurred
in the statement rnade on a former eferiirri-byth-e- Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Griahism),
that the augmentation by France of her naval force was
matter of grave importance to this country, and that the
naval force of Great Britain ought to be equal to that of
any two other states. But it did so happen -that the
estimate for the naval force of France for the present
year was 52,000 men, including marines; while that for
this great commercial, colonial, and naval empire was
43,000 men, being 9,000 under that of France.—(Rear.)
Mr. BRIGHT rose amidst strong manifestations of
impatience and loud cries of " Divide." The Hon.
Gentleman said that, in the few words he was about to
address to the Committee, he should not attempt to put
his knowledge of foreign affairs in comparison with that
of the Hon. Methber who had just sat down, and who
was so fond of war as to be ready to fight, not merely
for his own Queen, but for the sovereign of any other
nation.—(Oh, oh.) He (Mr. Bright) was not quite
sure whether it would be judicious to adopt the opinions
of the Hon. Member for Westminster even with regard
to military affairs. The speech of the Hon. Member
was not the most fortunate he had ever delivered,
though it bad received repeated cheers from that portion
of the House which seldom SO hailed the observations
of the Hon. Member. He should leave that Hon, Mem-
ber to square his accounts with the constituency of
Westminster—(Loud cries of '6' Oh, oh")—and he
(Mr. Bright) ventured to tell the Hon. Member, that
where one man in Westminster would syma-
thise with his speech, at least ten men would
sympathise with the observations made by his
Hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding.—(Loud
cries of " No, no.") The Noble Lord at the head of the
Government had not been more fortunate in his speech
than had the Hon. Member for Westminster.—(Laugh-
ter.) Every mark of approbation bestowed upon the
speech of the Noble Lord had emanated from the party
against whom the Noble Lord had been contending
almost ever since he entered upm office.—(Loud cries:of
" No, no.") The Noble Lord had taunted the manufac-
turers of the north of England with coming to the Home
Office and asking for military assistance.—(No, no.)
Even if true, that was a matter which had nothing to do
with the present question. The Noble Lord was proba-
bly aware that whenever soldiers were wanted in the
north of England, it had been when the price of corn
was such as to meet the views of Hon. Gentlemen oppo•
site, and it was a proverb in Manchester that the red
coats came when bread was dear. As to the assumed
necessity for troops here, he found a return showing the
present distribution of the forces. In Great Britain there
were at present 39,000 within some odd men, and in Ire-
land there were 26,296 men, in addition to whom there
were not less than 12,000 armed police, who had been
trained and drilled, and were to all. intents and
purposes a military force. It was clear then that 40,000
men was the number of the force in that part of the
United Kingdom, and that being so he was entitled to
take into consideration the various circumstances under
which it was assumed that this enormous force ought to be
maintained. Before he (Mr. Bright) had become a Mem-
ber of the House the Noble Lord opposite (Lord John
Russell) had been the friend of Ireland, and had con-
tended manfully for those changes with respect to that
country which he then felt necessary. He (Mr. Bright)
remembered the almost ferocious warfare which had
taken place in that House on the measures proposed by
the Noble Lord for the improvement of the condition of
Ireland ; and yet what was now the political position of
that portion of the nation ? She had next to no consti-
tuency—only 105 Members were sent to represent her in
this House, and wrongs and inequalities with respect to
her political institutions were not denied, but on the
contrary, were more or less admitted on both sides
of the House. She had, moreover, a church
establishment—(Question, question)—which would not
last a single session but for the Church Esta-
blishment in this country ; and she had a condition
of things which our children would not believe
possible. See what this army was for. Ireland's chil-
dren had died in greater numbers from famine and
pestilence than the sons of England had ever perished in
war.—(Hear, and question.) What was to be done to
remedy this intolerable and disgraceful state of things?
Talk of a great empiref—That was no credit to any
sovereign or state if it was not a contented empire.
Better have only our own tight little island, than add to
it thousands and millions of discontented subjects.—
(Hear, and question.) Gentlemen opposite might laugh,
but they were laughing in their sleep; and some day
they would be awakened by something he would not
describe.—(Hear, and a laugh.) Out of doors it was
generally believed that a privileged class had a predomi-
nant influence in that House. Let them remember that
they had an enemy at their doors, and let them act
accordingly. It was high time to show a stronger sym-
pathy for industry, and for the people at large. Sixty
millions of taxation could not long be patiently sup-
ported, shift the burden as they might. They must
come to retrenchment when the taxes were refused; and
he undertook to say that the burden would not be much
longer tolerated by the industrious classes.—(Hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE rose amidst loud cries of " Di-
vide," and " Oh, oh I" He begged to tell the Hon.
Member for the West Riding that the Representatives
of mixed constituencies knew the feeling of the indus-
trious classes, and that feeling was one of deep disap-
pointment with the free-trade measures. If any class
should soon need the protection of the State, it would
be the manufacturers and not the agricultural in-
terest.—(Oh, oh 1)
Mr. HUbIE said he observed, that on the well-filled
benches around him, he did not see six individuals who
had been present all the evening. The number of men
proposed for the army was 113,821, of which 77,297
were lett for the service of Great Britain and Ireland ;
adding to these pensioners, yeomanry, and trained
dockyard meo, there were 123,000 ready to be in arms
for this country, exclusive of the militia.—(Hear, hear.)
With this state of things, and with the Noble Lord's
promise for the next year, the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber for Westminster, in his simplicity, was perfectly
satisfied.—(Laughter.) For twenty years we had never
had so many regular troops by 25,000.—(Hear.) He
hoped the Noble Lord would at least be satisfied with
100,000 men.

Sir D. L. EVANS said he had not expressed satis-
faction with this statement of things, but he had said
that he was glad to hear that the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government meant to revise the whole system of
the taxation, which pressed so heavily on the industri-
ous classes. He would repeat, that the actual effective
force for the whole of Great Britain was only 22,000,
and this number he believed to be totally inadequate.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it 293

Majority -254
Sir W. MOLES WORTH then moved that the number
of men be reduced by 5,449, being the number return-
ing from India.

'The Committee then divided, when there appeared--
For the amendment
Against it 246
Majority
—2Ol
The vote was then agreed to.
700,0001. was voted on account for defraying the ex-
penses of her Majesty's land forces at home and abroad.
The following votes were also agreed to:-
50,0001. for the charge of general officers not being
colonels of regiments.
200,0001. for half-pay and military allowances.
100,0001. fur widows' pensions.
60,0001. for allowances on the compassionate list.
500,0001. for the out-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital.
50,0001. for stationery and the Stationery-office.
50,0001. for the works of the new Houses of Parlia-
ment.

60,000/. for civil contingencies.
The House then resumed, and the Chairman reported
progress.
ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS (COURT OF

CHANCERY) BILL.
This Bill went through Committee.
ELECTION RECOGNIZANCES BILL.
On the motion that the report on this Bill be further
considered,

The ATTORNEY•GENERAL moved, as an amend..
meat, that the report be taken into further consideration
that day six months,„

The house divided, when there appeared—
For the motion 92
Against it 73
Majority —l9
The report was then received, and the Bill ordered to
be engrossed.
NEW HOUSE OF COMMONS.
On the motion of Mr. STAFFORD, a Select Com-
mittee was appointed to inquire into the proposed
arrangemeuts of the kitchen and eating and accommo-
dation rooms for the Members and officers of the House
of Commons in the New Palace of Westminster ; and
to report whether any and what improvements could be
made in the present system of supplying refreshments.
WEST GLOUCESTERSHIRE PE FITTON.
Mr. GREENE called the attention of the House to
the fact that the petition from certain electors of West
Gloucestershire (ordered on 29th inst. to be printed),
contained a paragraph referring to what had taken place
in that House, and he therefore moved that the order for
the printing of the petition be discharged.
Mr. G.-.BERKELEY suggested instead the omission
simply of the objectionable words.
The motion for discharging the order was, however,
agreed to, Mr. G. BERKELEY intimating that he
would have the objectionable passage struck out, and
then again print the petition so amended.
The House adjourned at Twenty minutes to Two.

BIRTHS.
On the 28th ult., at the Vicarage, Env, Hants, the lady
of the Rev. W. Parr Phillips, Rector of Woodford, Essex,
of a son.
On the 29th ult., at Averhani Rectory, Northamptonshire,
Mrs. Charles Sargeaunt, of a daughter.
On the 29th ult., in Upper Hyde. park-street, the lady of
Western Wood, Esq., of a daughter.
On the 30th ult., at Camberwell, the wife e►f the Rev.
Daniel Moore, of a son.
On the 30th ult., at Castle Rising Rectory, the wife of the
Rev. Charles W. Begot, of a son.
On the 30th ult., at Lewisham, Mrs. John Penn, of a son.

MARRIED.
On the 23d ult., at Emanuel Church, Camberwell, Lieute-
nant-Colonel Charles R. W. Lane, C. 8., Bengal Native In-
fantry, to Maria, daughter of the late Captain John Gibbe,
Royal Cork City Regiment, and of Ballinora, Cork.

DIED. -
On the 25th ult., at Stoke, near Devonport, Lleatenant C.
A. Yolland, R.N., aged 42.
On the 28th ult., at Clifton, Bristol, Colonel Edmund
Hardy, late of the H. E. I. C.'s Bombay Artillery.
On the 29th ult., in Chester-square, the Hon. Mrs. Walter
Wrottesley.

London: Printed and Published by MURDO YOUNG, at
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, No. 112,
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savoy, in the county SI
kliddleaex, Saturday, April 1, 1848.