The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-07 00:00:00

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the it CaUSe the Lord Chief Justice had objected to confine principle. He. wanted to know if any Noble Lord in that
_ll4_lre:el's:lir: t° Ireland and to onswerateanenso Ile coanen 1, dolls, would give the Lord Lieutenant power to transport a
Ifuttre timeostpene the contiderat ion of his amendmeot nil non supposed to be of a dangerous character. Ile was sure
14 amore t wla en he
It general proposed to bring theist forward as part that no Nob'c Lord would grant such a pewen They were
Ray to et, measure. He did not thick tint the bast too much imbued by English feelings to do so. It they were
esusio with the
,amendments was to take them alt into really to transport a man for his bad character, better for them
to er-tlon too. th-
'4ake out his oe srs The accused person had in this case to do so avowedly on that ground; and there oueht to be a+.
fittOd,tlf)ei:e,
_saistm_fis:3
tsitaet es TseinotnTile had to tell his own atom. ' searching inquiry into his character. Let him suppose the case o.
ghttrwas
ta :t: was to or the magistrate, as the case a !over, or that of a man going to see his pried, and teat either
..4ether it a be disehargel. li he did not satisfy them, of them were suspected to be going to join a party of. SS bite-
:sea be committed fir trial at the discretion of the magi; . boys, who were to meet that niohn and were ace-twit:set), ar •
was in his opinion a great improvement, hut res•ed. Tee coincidence of sued a meeting (in case there was
wto re_ , mourned to so great an improve-met-it or safeguard • one) would be certain to condemn them before a jury.
Ilestion'uner transportation unnecessary was quite another • These were the su•-picious circumstances which the
!Ka tr • While he was on his lee's, he'woold soy one word N ,hie Lord thought justified the passing of
telsoi4nsPort at'
tt .—a. He ion, as that punishment' had great weight in i such a clause. lie did not distrust the
tooted K. had heard from persons limn all parts ,it this juSgss of the land. who were to try the earth's, bat ha would
ethegseat in,gg.d'in. that the tear of that inflow on !lad ask hose coula the judges pronounce upon character? How
sial"kitslon -...eet in deterring the people irom the could they proctiea? Was there to be a public investigation?
nate,
whichof crime. He also wished to s is7tlest another ,It treemed to him quite impossible that such a mode of pro-
thille'Pei
.01fali,11. did twit, require tube siroiloht rotes .rd , the cewling could be jus,ifitid. A mats petfectly innocent crate as
tea Y eerso He eeld it to to the utmost importance• • meter vet the reaen of ;he Bill as the mast gurity, and + such
sol*4lii. Iro 4 Who tor atss offence shoald have h, en ,en_ a:o-nart might i.e e,onder,n,: to the :severest punishment, and
;betas" tend to troll:et tatioto should not ;lore tsar inter- not :troy iminseit, lost all . essetiding, on him. He thought it
tissieesteittene sentence aid its execuotto. The petomn or inoostowas that their Lorilsities would sanction such a clause.
It t▪ weed have sent at to." sso,, the oioa it, ,he „tt unit Let ante supposts a man esiettol -roes his lend under the clear-
the-sodeeteieSi.eiemor+e. tLe effect. of
.cieeraancoe tit, mete:owl, a• ce system.. and onto be toopsesoid 00,-tose. feeelnitiagr: whichlwv,nol
,_.tike 1066 :, no
thou
the eonomission of iike (sift-owes for been eetert :seed by such a man as loon as ri t nature. ,
rt:tsies with‘sit.oe, tom' double the Oussislina"rit net itetoon • "ha' it was—if. under such eirutunaretes, although innocent
Ine'iet shoelliat celerity of execution. God forbid that the ' and uottfendittg, the actual victim of oppres ion was tran-
tilerf Lind hurrii-d away to New Sou. h Wales or Van purled for his expression of strong feeling. would it
:anises
of hero, e the Crown had time to exercise its pre- I not be most m- nstrous ?—( Hear, hear. ) fhe system would
es,kdhaee mercy; but he still thttutstlir that such a course ails., have the effect of lowering the character of the police in
They Prodigious effect in intireasing the -cars i,f cruet- ! Ireland, inasmuch !ms it would create a system of espionne de-
ttidtty yea ail knew what had to:pp:oleo in YO,kit:ire F.,,rne ' grolieo to that body. ;sect celeelated to iminar th 'r rffienency.
iue,ekis dais, ges Timere was a c monnice between a father : It ,i-ieelow was ti; is this power to the poliee, it would utterly
lII' qed ito 'thter- to charge a person' oa h rape. That seas ; destroy the liberty of the subject. Neither did he think this
sloe, 0 effeet
tot s they '-- •in the mor.iing. Between tame mod ten power shook be given to the lees! magistracy, though he had a
acre
-iave their evidence oil the trial. Bs :en o'clorik t great mespeet iir them, without its being greatly abosed.
16,ere Rendjury saw toe need silty of a vertliirt of ansuotal, 1 Toy airs to beets commueication with the Lord Li, utenant,
kV if the Perjury its the costs. Too y, LC We, i.etniea i but he had tso teat is means. of knots leg the character Of the.
the that thgratid jot y had bum, diecharown :suit, ~n t,ing ! man that the Joehee. I lie aceused party, if convicted,
ottoease to ih.eY were not, ire desired them to (ms dirt' was to b' , sent from ,her dock to tho ship. and
reir bill et
_e, fa' her arid ft tuishter. The grand ju-y ,eat in ti-terefoN. 5,n it Fewer or mesos of appal to the
%el? three eieveti o'clock, the prietme,s were ;rot at I welvs, i Lord Leuterisitt ii td he ? These were ihe reesens
they Vseesioniee s weie ou toetr way fool' the gee; ii, s eta, in I that infloonced Hai is Oitiking. 01,irCe10:1 to thi' clause.
thr.:4t4 ti,' W the execu.aon of their sentence. Every one 'lf it was the objsc, of the Bill to enforce obedience to the pro-
a eireeii°e northern circuit would ehnit, that for tee next claination, sueely twelve moot hs' imprisons:nen', wi Is in, :I
H 5 t had :th, effects of the ro-n0,j,„,,, of 'his •pun •,),_ labdUr, W.,121,i ,:t, amik' puniehinent ft beteg out at night. I
thdr4entioaneluiorY effect in unintahteg the amount of crime, a snore strintrent clause were required, let it be inserted, but
ste.'lltnere
efti'at fact as he oely wished to show the great let it be so woreltel as not to endanger the liberty of an into-
atiel,sinto,eit. " ects produced he promptituSe in the infletion of cent man, and perhaps the lives of his family. No man was
the'ltalte „ lle wished also that the Executive Government more opposed to agrarian outrage than he was; but there
tlei"tapraet':r! that when a murder had been committed, were ample means of framing clauses to. meet
.such cases as
tt ta!ise °fee' ti'r executing the sentenee as near as possible to men about found vi anderieg about at night with arms con-
tot*" Prtein'" should he revived. He knew the bol effect cealed their persnis, or other suspicious circumstances.
sonePliee et „L Principle in Lancashire where the ex,euticires What was the real cause of this system of agrarian outrage ?
tiii7of the'ne end of the county, probably distant from the at hat was the bottom of it all? They all knew it was the
Asti bit no, eritne, and time Westmoreland peasant had the rooted hatred of the poor to the law, the result of long ages of
keil'theee; an example. He would only say, in conclusion, gross misgovernment ; and they had been told by high autho-
nit, Uggestions were followed the effect would be a di- rity that in Ireland there was one law for the rich and an-
weir irl
neunt of crime. • other fir the poor, and long ages of misrule had con-
Sesti4!lleTredtsh;Ps then went into Committee on the /3ill. vineed him of the fact ; and in order to eradicate that
eltisyrea Ilstoiesiatise being read, feeling would they pass such a measure as this? Would these
toised which ,u, °HAM referred to the amendments in this cases of oppression which he had pictured, and which it would
tine to pe ine Lord Chief Justice (who was absent) had in. be impossible to avoid under this Bill tend to eradicate this
berPositi4P°ses He Lord Brougham could not agree to feeling? woultl it not re-her tend to increase the evil, and
tnielltired ,'1 that the testimony of three magistrates Obtoolii exasperate the f•eings of the people? Wauld it not rather be
14,.„.ti
et ee the,:
wdiestkvistorefore district was deelarel. 1 f they waited till better to rely on ,he ord.reare taw of the laild ? He knew he
lwetbso te, sent up evidence of a district being in a state soots"! he met by the argument that this was no new measure.
might fail in vets mans instrice Rut that WA, an motet tonal teassn why he would oppose it,
lod IarI'ANIIICA *a ' ' ' • . .3*
eee, ing ~ 'SDI: entirety agreed in the opinton twat because such measures never Laird any other effect in Ireland
amongst. the people of that
ei °` a district should be left to the Lend Lieu- than to create a worse ieehng
colostry against the Government by which they were ruled.
•
41Itluilesilt2,1J,G, HAM thought that the interference of three He begged to apologise for having trespassed upon the House
lila' Lrticil'a in many cases operate injuriously. so long, but he would now conclude by propose-1g that the
l'ltie, l'illt the I, AN CELLOR made a reference to the Act. 3 and sentence should be twelve months' imprisonment instead of
sotosSre ai,, ssi in respect to this point, the applieatien of transportation.
Itsili spolig°t understand from the low tone in which his Earl WICKLOW said he conceived that there was no class
Stiese Earl ofe'n, of the community irt Ireland who would more rejoice at the
nlie— Would 0 " ICKLOW remarked, that as the Lord Chief passino, of this clause than the peasantry of Ireland, the very
lett illietise 4 0t• be present till next week, and as the feeling Mass for whom. the Noble Earl tool made s i pathetic a speech.
to e the pseared to be against the adoption of his amend- Be (Lord W icklow) admitted this clause was a severe one ;
c'esS Riq.,ht it would not be fair to wait for him but, though similar acts had been enforced kefore, he never
is4t lino, UG HA M. said his Noble and Learnell Friend heard of a case of such hardship and tyranny as the Noble Earl'
11.1111-41 e lit7tl_4toesfor.three magistrates being, required to depose had been so. i:atheticelly describing. In answer to the Noble
14theva was,
.7_ of for
district before it was declared. All that he Earl's pathetic spec-cu, he (Lord IVicklow) begged to refer the
Se Preeee'unse better foundatien for proceedings than these House to the speech of a great statesman, Lord Grey, who
V i'd c"t Bill
4lldhe CITTF,•• in I S:l3 introduced a shmlar measure, the severity of which he
The— ben i—N HAM was of opinion that the matter lamentest, but he said that its very severity was its best
be clause left in the hands of the Lord Lieutenant. security. This present Bill made a misitemeanour a transport-
cites;l Was agreed to, as were also clauses 3,4, and 5. able offence, and the Bill of Lent Grey contained a clause pre-
kl4 '4l CL A 6 being read, cisely similar.
Watt° ACO,Sif
Leseit 51ileed
th Y observed, that the Noble Lord who The Lord CHANCELLOR. and Lord CAMPBELL said that
Zh' beeY 14 Retail e measure had complained of ties very great Lord Grey's Bill tsint mined no such clause.
.0 _ 4 t0,..._. g witnesses to come forward when any crime Earl WIC -s LOW continued to say that he considered this
1 oelnle r''"led• There was ti,t doubt that indovidools Bill would be useiess without this clause, and therefore he
kikl'ltes , °"card to •. . 1.. -
gi%c t rir evid nee ware ,•xposed woulti oppose the amendment.
icee eeierey great denger. It was not, however, so Lord CA,sII)I3ELL said that the Bill of 1833 made beingp forwen,
af personal harm that prevented witnesses timiiiation of witnesses a transportable offence ; but the
plitt44orubc.w: it was the fear of having attached to them out at night seas made simply a misdemeanour, without de-
:,_thi_ np. te et,ocorisidered.a, informers. It was a very dig titling any puoishment beyond tine and imprisonment. The
''told, 'Hue glut' evidence in Ireland from what it was in Noble Lord then rend the clauses he alluded to, the words of
Ni7,tt thaj__
we,. d earriestly propose to her Majesty's Go. which bore out. his staterneets. He than continued to say that
kiedlel „i
,it'eurs. should be woe,' to the local magistrates in the present BSI no etioincion whatever was made between
wit tiesses.
Joedweere „enpeferorts pst sons to come forward whom they he- the t &noes, and therefore he shsuid say that so far this Bill
I'll:441e'l AfolriPthrie ha-1 been most unhappily framed. The, &rotes of intimidsting
NI
44e
of, A . imeulty
Edl...els as
of oration that the law had already o jet man or a witness, or thing out armed were transportable
whien the Noble. Lord had corn. offenttes ; but no distinction was made between those offences.
S. sett be detained witness might b
41. e .._s.ze in custoe;
.tso
e.._ size s. He was also liable -t-'
ornent if he nen , a
,necteu to appear
ncnotstopelled to corn, forward. and that of simpt! being nut at n'ght, perhaps upon his lawful
tt,
titthe trial should c ,me on business. Si that a man heal.; out at t4t, ularmcd, or
punished with fine cad !sanded, butt " 'seder suspicious. tances. as the Bill had
'
hl that 11 . a the law could do had
fur the case f'll t ta d
when called on. I-1,, in was to be tratisporten tor fitteeicouymesars. The Noble Lord
kitteti.
ego stand
wor:ds from Lord WICKLO V
alreNadv been done to then read a upri..ei ease, upo , %yawl' a form o ion te men ;a.
been framed, and contended that a document so loosely worsed
1.01, 4_ anel part of the Bill. ' the clause was sitoulsl nut be p, rrnitted to,.ernsslti.meAutrnha,nr might bc,e.hoiucht upon
ttlau'e 1 bean,
upon a " lawful eiccoeion'', but )et it might he
Ne pry, ensued e read, a ton, conversation, inau,iilde in not
114 I,4ti, Lo ed between Lord Cotteresatn, the'Lere, c.„,.. f mod difft,•olt to vrr,c,,.. that it was mils-a-eh
oils'! the Lord, CdmPbtll, after which tile ciause was made Ile (the Noble Lord) d.(l nor believe that the present inea-,ure
Vla 8:"1. was the proper sus,- for the malady that prevailed in IrelalA ;
it,v, tthr a.' neat proposed when tor tit, y reoulti not mske the low mere respected by nicking it
kikith. te4tiglo',W. Lsels',TME:A r d eensidered Urn the remu noire cruel and unju•ti lie nisier! that, on consider-viols,
fit to ' araount radwpo night bs injured :lams ,1 nit he ptht they would coin •to the voovicti .n that their object would he
01.441) "d that been le vie,l on the county which was Ii- better attained by rowed-tog to the amendment of tie Noble
,th 4.. He ho_e , s. (d iiot be pat i out of toe comisoli- Earl. Agtariati outrages were condemned by every man in
tZrdTit.o4, 4foreilitu the clause would be tittered to the effect the country, anti by tin min more strongly than Mr. O'Connell,
, NT, wai made par of the Bill. who had ever s t his foe:, aeainss such.--( Hear, hear. ) And
11411;4'a ra;PAGLE objseteo antoret he: to any such alter- he should then say it the Bill passed in its present form it
kloloP osoes et file conso;idared 'fend was contributed to would have the effect of aggravating, rather than correcting,
tis lareei: by Ireiand as he England. the roots cotriplairteit of.—( Hear, hear.)
1/2ttipt 4ath,e el WES IAIEA:TIi withdrew his amendment, Lend 013.0 LH Ali said he had attended to the arguments of
litiititthnent ywha,sliordereu to stand part of the Bill. . Noble Lords on both side-, and he should confess that, in his
04,, 3t v. . eved that it would be in other fair, proper, opinion, the subject had been approached with an absence
tee_Laeir eile landlords of Ireland should be exonerated from of all party ieeliSig.—(Loud cites of " Hear, hear. ')
e4","egbt saeate of the ex eases incurred in prosecutions. But after having given the fullest consideration which
I„7tll,9‘ll(l4eur that the present oreadful want of the Irish he could to the arguments, be was forced to admit that he was
'er 4.1ut0 'er have existed if the landlords of Ireland had entirely in favour.of the Bill without the amendment. In his
tkettleet i'e t? the people under them. He should alto- opinion some of his Noble Friends had been led away by their
tile is.srl of t'euses 13 and 14. feelings on the occasion, and had not sufficiently attended to
Clfirl itite","'D EN, with same wermth, said that if the what the stature of the power intended to be bestowed on the
40t11 tted a. llued to state that the evils with which Ireland Government really was. His Noble. Friend who had moved
ohtlitokietense from the neglect of the landlords, or from the amendment, all along affirmed that the very vernal offence
Ittit'a/I9 as)di4et' their part, he (Lord Rohm) should feel it of beieg out an hour after sunset was a misdemeanour,
Stft.e nes,erect a contradiction as was consistent with the and punishable by transportation. But it was not for so
se, °tott of p!) to deny
the veracity of any such assertion. venial an offence that he was liable to transporta-
‘kltn. All
,t:kIINHASI would also deny the Noble Earl's tion, but for an offence which he (Lord Brougham)
h em that he harm he wished the Noble Earl for the re- considered by ili, means venial—being out under sus-
)ekitl
%%cat ra„epai:trelght be an Irish landlord, and be obliged to pieus circumstances, aod not on lawful, arid then -
VtattEy."lol task of residing on hee estate, foe ot, unlawful. occasions—the `tow having declared that public
tititismegt stseetetlPlained, that possibly he had spoken with wicurity riquirtel that he should not be out on such unlawful
% t
bittilai3' thegreat change had token
place in the. tic anions.—(Hear, hear.) Now there had been a distinction
:11 the
and of their tenants. Time present evils sought to be drawn between what was a moral and
,V et' .tae pa "sl,snas afflicted were perhaps mainly attri- what was a legal offence. Now, he ( Lord Brougham)
‘l'itiefeeirit thews history of that country. The state of things could not at all conceive the difference, as a well-
irre?!er ieet,e was the direct consequence of the dereliction disposed subject should ever consider that whet was opposed to
1 „Inlords in their duties to the people. —(Cries of law was opposed to right, and, consequently, to morality.
l, t,' tt v,
1:11,i
~ 1,4 at tat „as an historical fact, with which [that nly Again, a man was not to be transported for fifteen years for so
IN 115 0- e world, was acquainted. anti all the venial an effence as Noble Lords imagined; for the Court was
VeiNtiol:pee l'P°'ite might say or do would not make the fact armsd with a power to examine whether he was out on lawful
Ite se:l of we business or under suspicious circumstances,—( Hear, hear.)
llotel°flrei WICKLOW was of opinion that the present What better security, he wished to ask, could there be, than
I/411;11'k- kr lead was owing to the gross mismanagement that the Judge before whom the man would be tried would go
Nntl, Y. If
1014 l, we e admitted that a great change had taken into the particulars of the case, and direct the jury as to the
111 aiSoPesti hail1 Protest against the historical facts which nature of the offence ? And then, even though he should be
niettteei, employed. found guilty of tieing out under suspicious circumstances, the
lVat It' th, ;,°_ LAN SDOWNE was opposed to the intro- same judge would mete out such punishment as, under all the
kelnottioee'tdtt.ses to which his Noble Friend had objected. circumstances of the case as proved before him, should appear
Ilitifts,leetiehe,c that these murders were committed by to him to he just. —( Hear, hear.) If the man hap-
bitZtee'mstlaßeee"rna
feeling d country, and were concealed, penes! to be out under circumstances of a very
s prevailing mischievousta,eef tinieaturnee—ighabloweadi,soedtakemrg
locality
account the
n secretro through-
con--er)'' and partly heof wasos afraidai — and that
Nthl..ANrd hear. ) he was proved to be a man of good character, would not that
tlabsTid th 41tTY observed that the Noble Marquis hadt go into the jury.box in his favour ?—(Hear, hear.) And was
kNottil iittoeirde source of these lawless assassinations, and it not certain, that the sentence of the Court would be perhaps
zl,l ,041dItY to avaSl themselves of the notehtoery whieh a day, or two days imprisonment, or perk cps a fine of fire 5111 i
1101;4 the;"°rd them to relieve the pour people from the linos ?—( Hear, hear.) It had been asked, is why were not the
titwee t lee-, class of vaelants. lie would wish the Noble suspicious eiteurnstaneeslefitieti?"—(t• Hear, hear," from Earl
vehetne t"e oftener - sent st the inr tory then ooino on Grey. ) Now his answer to that was because it would be im-
sSnNleheee'44 1;4 II; Tri.hl) elo-raw", .as hel anticipat'ed nuch possible to define them : fir instance. one man being seen with
Not °lto tee eueeted from" his knots ledge of Irish affairs. la
bludgeon, night be no great crime, but when 59 or 60 men
itpipigh ihmzi,,,,-',lrurnental in putting the Noble Earl's name armed with bludgeons were seen together, wculd not such be
lo.(0S11-"tee, but as yet they hart gamed but little an aggravation of circumstances?—( Hear, hear.) In reference
N Rygeoce.
to the mixing up of agrerian outrage with landlord tyranny, he
il,hillZ Joe i'ra, ir that he told the Noble Lord distinctly that (Lerd Brougham) should say they were questions that, ehould.
h-t‘leltseellato, 1:- power to attend, and yet, in spite of that not be mixed togethea for every such coosiclera.den.wtakene weakened
rl.4.4s,.P.ersevered in i•lacing his name upon the the efficacy of the measure for the suppression of crime.
toL.t
, `l4 kts_ti iinueeaut attended the first few days, as it was in the people be ever so misgoverned, that gave thernno right. go
ntoitstand. v oat time it was utterly impossible that out on snobs and make life insecure and property valueless in that
1441%TvisaliOn of ill-fated and unhappy part of the empire.—( Hear, hea )
y is, 4,4 . 1 :t- . clause IS was then r stponed. When the time came tor cowidering the grievances under which
ILO 44. I. it his duty to move an am, ndmacit nk the agricultural population laboured,. he would be asd rea.,,ty as
i
VlttiZte hatyeeisietiose ma-Ac it an offence, transportable any Noble Lord to enter into the question, but he felt disinclined
itOts. ;titer ' for a person to be out of his boils, to mix the goes.ions at present—( Hear, Lear)—and he there-
k tNII-. ti ~ia, sunset. Now they mast reeolteet fire felt it hi; key to support the measure, in doing which he
10," WI Ito • trig podee offence, and by no means involving could not avoid saving that he was giving his support to a
alo Itteilshro),tneral printople ; he, therefore, would move meantre infinite y less stringeot than the one which his (Lord
rt'Sael;triieased(''',l, Should be lito.ted to imprisoomint for one Brougham) haa the honeur to present to their Lordships for
itt:,:::, ,ered, '': bun that the power which oas proposed accey.!ance. It was true, the, e was this severity in the present
'ltst"aveselind not now fur the first time, upon the measure that did not. exist in his nil!, namely, the makieg misa
41 too."l4lent of It elaad, was one which should not demeanour a traps-portable offence ; yet lie could not help say.
\Seth.% ie n0,,e°,,1 ureter the insist extraordiriaty eircurns ing, that in bis opitth,n; the cm:ow-martial clauses in his Bill
. t. 14,tettee's be told tOat the eve for wh,ch such a were deepet•l the most important clauses in the measure, and
I NO, Isitei slid' was one which called. for, so severe a pun- tulle jos,itied his anticipation, as not a single man was tried
s apt pd °Ol., however, consider that the etreern-
kik4
under them, so great was toe terror which they inspired,—
IsSfg, -IC the
Personal liberties
any such case. as that. He was of (Hear, hear )
iikitd di,
„IL.) ?n. a, liberties of the tillilJants of a pro- Ihe Marquis of CLANRICARDE cons dered that if the
lttti;blaee stay seii°,ln not
.be so
.iettered as tat. they.
fivewoule amenoment ',reposed by the Noble Earl (Earl Grey)
\)4,..tf IDr their c .bins from about four es in were carried, that the. Government would be armed with no
:),42. .4-, ember day till half past teeet the follow-. more than the ordinart power. As to teaching people to
t .othlole that they would not set their toot out of respect. the law, such could not be done by letting them see,
,itilittlitah.leeti,,Cottages during a period of sixteen hours year after year, that by a combined effort they could defeat it,
at. the titeeSg. themselves to these severe penalties. A arid overreach the constituted authorities.--(Hear, hear.)
kltti°4lii "4 elfselt ISis friend —m my not gO to his work, withOtl, They ‘A•gui•il on this matter as if the law were to he universal),
SslS'bfet atid t eueinse arrested bra volicernati and afterwards applied all over Ireland, but their Lordships should recobeet
‘tCttl't,eofrreruve (what no man (multi 'prove) that his hat. its tipeto: ion was limited to the disturbed dioriets, end no
kkiseto hettias free
from criminality. It was said by the honest men, he would toolertake to say, would in such a dis-
k 4, tortititsin, 7, clause was necessary, and
.that it. only trict be found out of his house after sunset.. The.really goad
ietteepheetnini en° were found under suspicious circuns- effect of the measure would be, that while it inspired honest
'''rett"titetrati ",t, however, coesent that it should ever men vvith confidence in the power of the Government, it at
k e.,14 trttoe;tt 1;3:24 any of those disturbed districts, and no the same tine struck terror into the hearts of the evil-disposed
V'eti 11% t:tbsion.wnds, heard could induce him to come to a by the severity of its clauses. If the amendments of the Noble
iliac, f Pass 01 's as it to he supposed that their Lord- Earl were, however, acceded to, the Bill would be so weak-
i, Ant theNstnew Of such unexampled severity, because erred in its operation that it would be cornoaratively useless.
‘',Ss'llelj too,- tedium Perhaps, of the enacoment, should wish The very papers read by the Noble Lord who hail introduced
ets:liset 0 c`g.e by oaf a sixteen hours' continem• nt in his the measure were a satire upon the imbicilits of the Execuive
tl/4NY eV t:4151 tosaels2telng out to breathe the fresh air, that, Coverennao, ;Intl formed the very best indictment, that could
14th"eki:Peotti " lin he should subject hitusell to be be drawn up agamst them. 1f sorivernment tied Img ere that
k.it. itietllie a to
evsettlement for fifteen years. It was so time assumed a 1 teller tore, it they Lad brought. tar, power of
Chi , h-etedtuttie beery principle ot natural justice, hat, the executive to beer toion the itsturbtql portions of Ireland,
ii,gly' SO soi in it h'ore their Lordships' House wish that the evils they were then cortsid ring o toll have hail no exist-
kie:l'lle.la oiOt t, e' for one, would say, " Net content" once. He should oppose the amendments of the Noble Earl.
ti:im, Reekoise
and old that it did not apply to peaceable Lord COTTENHA II said that time Noble Earl, by his
stellste'eoloteiftniod:oin.ls.u, burdinate persons, aed that those amendments, did. not wish to rescind the clause to which the
ins Old thiee.eorne _ inat was called " fuspicious circurn- amendments applied; all he wanted was to,
.limit In some. degree
kkth pa 4 Facto
eitunder its iofluence. What, he vvoulti the punishment of offences. The first °inert of society was of
rtlphte clipl r °Rinse ,eurnstanee. o lie ,j,1,,f to know how course to secure life and property, and the only question was,
N i,"411y ' oetween . .'t I-: ,
144 fii 54:.13,0.. Isitu! , !Llo men %SIM, were mut. out, tdereio-e, oco.v toey were.best toWhen this Coercion
t.L i!ed," e.. tots roet,eoseasion, and ateetner who was 111.- Bill was first introduced it was proposed.to make it a perma-
10,Nonthst "; Role 'ves? He would take two iestances. nent law for Ireland, but it was now considered only as an ex-
hiQe e,9e o artosi,e_g oht for the purpose of visitiog hit traordinary exsedient to remedy an extraordinary state of
N 4 rty 11;411,1,1,1, th Zrr going to join a party of Whitehoys, timings. With regard to the particular clause in question, al-
Vl Notiteln imo'eould ebetett by a policeman, ohm. differ- though he would not deny foram oment that this was a res
stital_sohe_ es,
seoayo,„
~
attound in the external circumstaitces tion on the liberty of the subject, still if. the peace of Ire-
-4,..111,4e40, 4._ d teljn., one man was itsfinensed by ins- land required it, the Government were right to persevere.
s;tisitteete,vitsto the tehe other was innocent ? No men This was a measure of precaution, adopted for the purpose of
IstJtopsres;' Rho any re„V.Vin. an heart, and therefore it would preventing sffences. It appealed to him, however, that the
t<tb ,4ei„.utiast jeCernottoerjwushtice, to ray uriTtlehre such punishment, as provided by
the original )Noble was tememrdercifullyi
meete r et.haenedx i
,the
na that
itensee
fa
theme nedarsnee. n t f
Theythe
eel i L
' laemeti,seZtot:tvereapunishment.andcouldremember tee had heard it stated that there were gradation; in crime, and that while one man
q 1514 tllreutild eeiow.as a mode of detecting a man— might be out of his house after sunset for the worst of pural
'a y proposed
him. If that was really the poses, another man might be also out for purposes comparatively
to got it was a most dangerous innocent. Tho introduction of the words " under suspicious
I

circumstances," into the clause, was a great improvement.
The Nobles Lord who had last spoken, had referred to the terror
which would be induced by this measure, and adduced it as an
argument for giving extended powers to the executive Govern-
ment. But the sense argument would apply in every case
where Government demanded extraesrdinary powers. He did
not feel dispi:sed to dispute the propriety of arming th 3 Go-
vernment with these extended powers, but he yet felt that the
amendments pi oposed by the Noble Earl were improvements
upon the original measure, and he should therefore support
their adlitiori.
Lord MONTEAGLE said that if this were a question of
law, he should consider it presumptuous indeed in him to rise
alter the Noble Lord who had last spoken. But although he
disc mined i lea of vying with his Noble Friend in legal
knowledge, he thought that as regarded a knowledge of Ireland
he was biter infermed than the Noble Lord who Lad sup-
ported, or the Noble Earl who had moved the amendments.
Tnere could be no more painful position than for a person con-
nected, as he him,elf was, with Inland, to rise for the purpose
of advocating the enforcement of strong penal measures, and
nothing but the s'rongest sense of duty could have induced him
to come so prominently forward. If he were mistaken in sup-
porting coercive measures, he had soiac sa'isfaction in looking
to the past history of Ireland, for he found that, if err he did,
he erred ii good company ; he erred in the society of the best
aud wisest that country had ever produced—men who were
warmly aqached to popular institutions, and strenuous in de-
fence of civii liberty. He could not look to that question as
if it were brought before the House for the fi. st time.
lie found Lord Plunkett advocating such a measure bath
in and out of office. .!_sir oi:n Newport took the same course ;
but the greatest. name of all remained t.) be mentioned. In
respect of this very measure, Henry Grattan, when at the
height of his popultrit:„ and at the hazard of his life, came
forward to support it. He, the creator of Irish independence,
the friend and leader of the Irish people, in a British
House of Parliament did nut he: itate to ?.!ive his
aid to the passing of a coercive rrif asure. That
measure, too, was infinitely str.nger than the present one.
Every day added a new crime to the dark catalogue which disc
44r zees" the country. He would call their Lordships' attention
to the fact, that the concealment of crime in Ireland did not
arise from any desire to oppose the law— it arose from intimida-
tion. If c.ey retested to the testimony of .John Davis,
they would find that thole were no poople more imbued with
the love of jtritice than the Irish. The r,cl-1 bad couch greater
protection afforded to than the pour, wild it was for the
•

i.nriy-e of aflarding them the sau,iy to which they were
entitled that he rose to defend that Bill. No person contested
TIC pri ,•, of t`re measure; his Nohle Friend had admiited it,
and the only que.ition was as to the duration of the punishment.
and he would meet all the arguments which had been urged
against the Bill by this assertion, of which no one could deny
the complete justness, namely, that they were bound to adopt
such a modicum of justice as would render the measure effec-
tive. lie could show that the sentence of imprisonment for
three years would be more cruel than transportation, and that
transportation would be more effective for carrying out the
objects of the Bill. Yet there was another fact which
he would impress upon their Lordships, that this was
by far the mildest and most uneonstitutional measure that ever
was proposed for the adoption of Parliament. Mr. Grattan's
Bill committed the trial to the bench of magistrates, and that
without the benefit of a jury. By the present Bill the case would
be submitted to a judge of the land, a tribunal which it must
be admitted was tar more constitutional than the bench of
magistrates, ic;ftined as they mi.tht be by the transactions oc-
curring around. But the result of the punishment by imprison-
ment would be this, the criminal would return from the gaol
an adept in every kind of lawless violenee, particularly if he
were dispost•ei to any of those offences before his punishment.
lie could never give a vote on any subjecl more painful to his
feelings than on the present occasion, as hewas unwilling to be
considered the supporter of a measure, which would tend to the
restriction of the liberties of his country ; but having a strong
conviction on his mind, that by limiting the perild of punish-
ment they would deprive the measure of its efficacy, he did
not consider that it would be just or manly to give a silent
vote.

Lord LONGDALE observed that there was no question
made as to the principle of the Bill, nor was there any inten-
tion to offer it any obstruction, but the offence which it created
was cne of degree, and admitting of every variety of mitiga-
tion. The question, therefore appeared to him to be
whethOr they should have the same punishment for each degree,
or whether the punishment was to be limited by the description
of the offence ? new he did think the latter was the most rea-
sonable point to view the question.
Earl GREY said that as one year had been considered to be
too short a period by his Noble Friend, he was quite willing to
alter it to two.

The LORD CHANCELLOR raid that as it did not seem to
be generally understood, he would take that opportunity of
stating That it was the intention of the Government to limit
the period of transportation from fifteen to seven years.
Marquis of LANSDOWNE would have no objection
to voting for the Bill, provided it were limited. He would ask
to wtiat length of time it was proposed to extend the Bill?
The Earl of Si'. GERMANS replied that, as the clause
then stood, it was for a period of fire years, but he was quite
willing that it should be further limited to three.
Lord STOUR CON hoped that the Government would per-
severe in the limitation of the Act to five years.
The Margot:, of LA SSD° WN E iniimated that, at a fu-
ture time, he would take ihe sense of the House on the pro-
priety of hunting it to three year:.
Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared-

Content . 7
Not content
Adajorny .igainst the amendment
Clauses 24, 25, 26, and 27 were then agreed to.
On the last clause being proposed, limiting the duration of
dietili!ti five years,

The Mar(pis ~f CLANRICARDE thought even three years
too long. It was the most uticonAAutional Bill that could be
enacted, and it should terminate, at the utmost, on the Ist
October, 1,-149.

The Eari of WICK LOW thought five years short enough.
The n...cessity for its existence would be as strong at the et-
piration oft hree yea•s as at present.
The Margins of LANSDOWNE said, that. if it was pro-
posed to continue it longer than the time mentioned by his
Noble Friend (the Marquis of Clanriearde), he would take the
sens, of the Huse upon it.

Lord CLARE thought it wholly unimportant whether it con-
tinued three years or live years.
the Eari of ST. GE dAI A thoug'tt that it was of so
much importance that thtor Lordships should be unanimous,
or as nearly so as possib►e, that rather than run the risk of a
second division on the point he would have no objection that
the lesser period of three years should be substituted for that
of five.

It was then agreed, after some conversation, that the Bill
should bs limited in operation to three years.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF C0,11.110..15, March 6.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at a few minutes before
Four o'clock.

SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills were severally read a second time and
ordered to be committed, viz.:—

Airdrie and Bathgate Junction Railway.
Rye and D&'rwent Drainage.
Heywood Waterworks.
Leicester and Tainworth Junction Railway.
Ei•field Chase Roa,l.

Wakufiri.J, P.iitefract, and Goole Railway, and Port, &c. of

Goole.
Welsh Charity School Incorporation.
Creat Grimsby Gas
Stafford New Gas

Rugby Leamington, and Warwick Railway
South:Eastern Railway, No. 7 (Ashford Stations Enlargement)
Monmouth and Hereford Railway
London and Brighton and London and Croydon Railways
Conz,olidation
Monk!and and Kirkintilloch Railway
London and Oxford Railway
Eastern Counties Railway (Epping Extension)
Mr. NEWDEGATE moved the first reading of the Man-
chester Direct Railway Bill, which was ordered to be read a
second time.

Mr. KEMBLE moved that the order for the second read-
ing of the Mitcham and South-Western Railway Bill, on
Monday, March 2, be made an order of the day for Monday,
March 9, and that the Bill may be read a second time accord-
ingly on that day.—Molien agiced to.
Mr. WILSON PATTEN moved that the Scottish Grand
Junctio'i t-?ailway Bill, now placed in Group . No. 5, be re•
ferred to the Chairman of Ways and Means, and the Members
ordered to prepare and bring in the Bill; The motion was
agreed to.
Mr. GREENE also morel that the second readings of the
folloNing Bills, notice for which has been given in the Private
Biil-offi're for Friday the 6th of March, be made orders of the
day far Mon-ay next, the 9:h of March. Chichester, Ports-
mouth, and Fareham Railway Bill ; London and Birmingham
RaAway aid Birmingham Canal Arrangements Bill ; Eastern
Union Railway ( Ardteigh to Colchester) Bill.
The motion was agreed to.
Mr. BUSFEILD presented petitions from places in York•
shire, signed by upwards of 9,000 individuals, against the en-
rolment of the militia.

A petition was presented from the Poor-law guardians cf
the parish 01 Caisley, remonstrating against the interference
of the Poor-law Commissioners in their parish.
Colonel 'F. WOOD presented a petition, very numerously
signed by the inhabitants of Chelsea, expressing their satisfac-
tion at the proposed measure of the t,nvernment, and at the
same time stating their belief that the measure would be
materially improved if it included the total and immediate re-
peal at the corn-laws.
Mr. WARD presented a petition, signed by the Lord Mayor
and council of the city of York, and also by 15,000 of the
principal inhabitants, rgasnst the enrolment of the mili.ia.
Mr. T. DttNC;O.IIBE presented several petit►ons Against
the enrolment of the nalitia._ . .

Tmr. r.S 1:(ou it I brought up the report of the Standing
Orders' Cunirnit ee.

111 r. BRIGHT presented several petitions from the county
of Somerset praying for an immediate repeal of the corn•laws.
Mr. HUDSON presented a petition from some place, the
name of which did not reach us, in favour of protection.
Mr. YOUNG moved that the Speaker do make out his
warrant for the election of a burgess to serve in the present
Parilament in the room of the Honourable Thomas Carnegie,
who had accepted *he office o: one of the Lords of the Treasury.

THE SU24, LONDON, SATURDAY MaRNING, MARCH 7, 1846.

upon by the Government, and if not by them at least by some
Select Committee to be appointed by the House. He there-
fore wished to ask the Government whether they intended
taking any step in the matter?
Sir GEORGE CLERK said that the question of the amal-
gamation of existing railroads had been fully considered by
the Railway Department of the Board of Trade last year ;
and one of the reports which they presented to the House was
devoted exclusively to thee subject. In that report they laid
down general rules under which such amalgamation should be
pertnieed. In every instance the amalgamation of existing
railroads was permitted, because where the railways proposed
to be amalgamated lay in the same direct line, the public
would be advantaged by the traffic being carried throughout
the whole length of those lines under the same manage-
ment. But, on the other hand, it would be depriving
the public of the benefit of competition, if railroads
that ran parallel to each other were permitted.—(Hear , hear. )
He did not know whether, as a general principle, amalgamation
sheuld be permitted or not ; bat he was of opinion that it
would be extremely ineonver ient that where amalgamations
were propoied to take place, that they should be referred to the
same Committee as those which sat on separate Bills. In ge-
neral, those amalgamation Bills were not opposed ; they came
before the Committee as unopeosed Biils, and the attention of
the Committee was given to Bills that were opposed. He thought
in consequence that all those Bills should be rererrod to the
same Committee, who should take care that no amalgamation
took place which would not be for the benefit of the public.
Sir G. GREY wished to know whether the Government
would propose, as the Committees were now about to sit on
railway Bills, any suggestions for their guidance (as we un-
derstood) respecting the broad and narrow gauge?
Sir GEORGE CLERK said that he had half an hour
ago seen the parallel evidence, and that he hoped in a week
or fortnight to lay it before the House.
After a few words from Mr. BARING and Sir GEORGE
CLERK, which we could not catch,
Mr. F. MAULE said thet many of the Bills would not at-
tract the attention of the Committee at all with respect to
amalgamation.
PENSIONS FOR G:rVERNNIENT SERVICE IN
Sir V. BLAKE begged to put a question to the Right
Honourable Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government,
the purport of which it was understood was to inquire whether
the atinitry were at all likely to bring in a Bill for providing
pensions for those individuals elm lost their empleyini nt after
long service. If lint, lie should himself bring in a Bill for
giving a pension of 75/. a year to all those who have filled prin..
cipal situations after twenty years' duty.
Sir ROBERT PEEL was really not aware the Hon.
Baronet was going to ask such a question. He had not given
any notice—at least it did tot wand for to-day—(Cries of
" No, no")—or he would have taken care to have provided
himself wieh the information on the subject. The Hon.
Baronet was quite competent to bring in a Bill if he thought
proper, or if he chose to put a notice on the paper, he would be
prepared to give a reply on a future day.
SCOTCH TURNPIKE ROADS.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM moved the second reading of the
Turnpike Roads (Scotland) Bill, in order to have it postponed
for ten days, in consequence of the absence of the Lord Ad-
vocate.

FAMINE. IN IRELAND.
Mr. O'CONNELL rose to call the atterr ion of the House to
a letter which he had received from a Catholie clergyman, de-
tailing the misery which existed in his parish. 'the reverend
gentleman detailed that in his whole district there were 1,222
comvrising 7,332 individuals ; of these, 72 fa-
milies had six months' provisions, 16 had four, 184
had three, 48 had two-and-a-half, 218 had two, 87 had
six, 200 had four, 23 had three, 57 had ten, 32 had one,
and 3C9 were without any provision at all. He was sorry
the Hon. Member for Queen's County (Sir J. C. Coote),
than whom a better landlord did not exist, was absent,
because he •.rould be able to corrobate intelligence which he
(Mr. O'Connell) had received from that part of Ireland, that
half of the potatoe crop of his tenants had been utterly de-
stroyed, and that they were compelled to subsist as they best
could, on the indifferent portion left, and on the charity of their
friends and neighbours.
PROTECTION TO LIFE AND PROPERTY IN

same, in consequence of the averages preventing the purchase
of corn at a reduced price ; but after that, when the harveit at
home was made available, the averages fell, and foreign corn
came in when it was not required. He would be glad to meet
any Hon. Gentleman who was ready to defend the corn-laws,
and he would undertake to prove that every one of them, ac-
cording to the confessions of their supporters themselves, had
been failures. He should vote for no amendment against the
proposition of the measure of her Majesty's Government—
( Ironical cheering )—because he was anxious that the measure
should pats the Houses of Parliament. He was quite sore that
a fixed duty would do more harm than good, and he voted for
this measure because he thought the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of the Government best knew what was likely to
pass. He thought the other branch of the Legislature ought
to have a fair field upon which to do some good. Do not let
the House of Commons take all the credit. What he would
advise the House of Lords to do would be, to amend the. Bid
by proposing total repeel.—(Cheers.) He was satisfied that
if they adopted that course they would consult their own inte-
rest, and the country would then say, thank God, we have a
House of Lords. He, therefore, sincerely hoped that the
House of Lords would adopt that measure.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said, his Gallant Friend had commenced
by deploring the delay which had taken place in passing this
measure ; and yet, in the course of his speech, lie threw out a
challenge to discuss, during the progress of this measure, all
the corn-laWs which had been passed since the year 1815.
Now, there was as great a discrepancy in that as in the two
statements the lion. Gentleman had made respecting the
price. In the first place, he stated that this measure would
raise the price 3s. or 45., and in the latter part of his speech he
said it would make no difference at all. The Right lion.
Gentleman at the head of the Government had stated that the
price would be raised Is. or 25., but the Hon. and Gallant
Gentleman had improved upon that. The Hon. Gentleman
had referred to the law of settlement, hut that could have no
reference to the famine in Letand. If the present measure
raised the price of corn, it was obvious that, as far as Ireland
was coecerned, it would he better to delay the passing of the
measure, for that wculd be beneficial to the poor.
Granting all these provisions were correct, and that the
great change that the Right Hon. Baronet had thought it his
duty to show was not to be looked upon merely as a change on
the importation duty on flour, but rather as a great change in
the commercial policy of the country ; it seems that there was
this great diversity of opinion both in this House and out of
doors; it seems still further that there was this evident deter-
mination to continue this discussion through all the different
stages of Parliamentary usage ; seeing, also, that it was as-
serted that the uncertainty occasioned by what may arise in
thin House, or elsewhere, he did think that the R ght Hon.
Baronet could not do less than grant the means of indulgence
to the Hon. and Gallant supporter behind him, and to allow
the discussion on the law of settlement to precede the debate
on the alteration of the corn-laws. Now he thought he was
bound to remind the House that, seeing they were in a great
minority, and that it was impossible to prevent them from
protracting this debate to almost an interminable length, and
occupying the time of that branch of the Legislature by a
a cold discussion, he thought he was entitled to show the
House and the country that he and his Noble Friends near
were free from any blame on that point. They might have
clogged the notice-book with intimations of motions, which
would have had that effect, but they had not taken that
course. When the other night the Right Hon. Baronet had
expressed a wish that the debate should proceed, the Hon.
Member for Athlone ( Mr. Collett) had refused to accede,
and referred to several Members.
Mr. COLLE VT said his reference was made to the Peers.

Mr. S. O'BRIEN—Yes, but he did not blame the Hon.
Member, for he had not made his reference discourteously, but
he Lad raised a discussion which he had even a right to do;
the same circumstance had occurred with respect to the Hon.
Member for Liskeard (Mr. Buller.) When the Honourable
Baronet had moved for going into Committee, that Hon. Mem-
ber had moved an amendment which also brought on a dis-
cussion. He did not blame those Honourable Members,i but
he wished to show that he and his friends were free from all
blame on this point. The only Member of those with whom
he acted who had put a notice on the book, was the Hon.
Member for Warwickshire, but it had immediately been set
aside. He would repeat, he did not blame those Members, for
he thought that in such an entire breaking up of a party as this
question had proved, and in the important change which was
likely to take place, that the measure which introduced it
ought to be closely and doggedly discussed, and that it ought
to have the most mature deliberation in all parts of the House; '
but he must at the same time remind the House that, however
severe might be the famine suffered by the people, and how-
ever high the price of provisions, or however great
the disease amongst the potatoes, that he and
his friends near him were free from all culpability.
They were not responsible for the non-opening of the ports,
and the only reason he saw against such a measure was the
fact that the Noble Lord had proposed it.—(Hear.) They
were not responsible for the non-introduction of a temporary
Bill for Ireland. They were not responsible for Parliament
not having been summoned on the 22d of January; and if
the Hon. Baronet chose to introduce measures of such vast
importance, it was unfair to charge them with offering them
a factious opposition, because they were anxious they should
be fully discussed. Now he was determined, whenever that
charge was repeated, to protract the discussion. He should
not, however, interfere with the progress of the amendment.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but on our re-
turn to the gallery, we found that no division had taken place,
and that

Lord G. BENTINCK was in possession of the House. The
lion. Gentleman stated that he considered that nothing could
he more inconsistent than the speech of the Hon. and Gallant
Member when compared with the course he pursued. On the
division which took place on the motion of the Member for
Wolverhampton ; and his Hon, and Gallant Friend (Colonel
Wood.) who formerly supported the opinions entertained by the
protectionist party, new turned his back upon them and sup-
ported the propositions of the Government, though he was
elected to support the sentiments which he (bid George
Bentoick) and those around him entertained. He was sur-
prised, entertaining the opinions which he did with respect to
the poor-laws, that he did not advise the Government to; defer
the further consideration of the measures which they had
proposed until the treatment of the poor (who were
being carted about from place to place, and who were sub-
jected to the greatest hardships) had been amended and re-
medial measures adopted. He (Lord G. Bentinck) had never
refused his support to any measure which bad for its object the
admission of foreign corn to feed the poor of this country,
during years of scarcity and famine, and he bad also supported
the sliding-scale introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet, be.
cause he believed that the corn-laws of 1815 required modifi-
cation, and that a graduated scale should be adopted. But
even under the law of 1815, the price of corn in England in
1816 was cheaper than on the Continent, as he found that
whilst corn in England was at 112 s. a quarter, it had reached
116 s. at Vienna; and that in 1817 whilst it was 112 s. in Eng-
land it was at 1•275., at Vienna, 140 s. in France.—(Hear,
hear.) He did not, however, as ish to say anything
in favour of the law of 1815, but whilst he approved of the
sliding-scale of 1842, which the Government seemed to think
was a great failure, he could not forbear saying that the corn-
law of 1815 had prevented foreign corn from being introduced
into this country at famine prices, and consequently from
materially injuring the agricultural and commercial interests
of the country.
After a few words from Colonel WOOD and Lord Joins
RUSSELL, (which were inaudible in the gallery,)
11r. COLLE l'T stated that he did not wish to embarrass
the present question, or unnecessarily delay its progress, but
he must say, in answer to the charge of the Hon. Member
for Northampton (Mr. S. O'Brien), that any word he had
said with reference to the four Noble Dukes in the other
House he belived to be perfectly true, and would again repeat
the charges if necessary.
Sir JOHN 'f YRRELL was surprised to hear the Hon.
Member for Brecon ( Colonel Wood) state that he would vote
in favour of the Government measure. He (Sir J. Tyrrell)
had always looked upon the Hon. and Gallant Member as the
Nestor of protection. He was surprised at the general state of
ignorance, with reference to the feelings and opinions of the
constituency of the Hon. Member. He believed that there
was a requisition in a considerable state of progress, by the
members of the Gallant Colonel's constituency, who, knowing
his great honour, and the great honour which had always distin-
guished his actions, had no doubt that he would meet the

terms of that requisiti©n in a perfectly manly and honourable
manner.—(Laughter.) The requisition was, he believed,
signed by a considerable number of gentlemen, and those per-
sons to wham allusion had so ofen been made in the course
of the late monster debate. He alluded to tenant-farmers,
' and he (Sir J. Tyrrell) was given to understand that in con-
' sequence of the late mania for farming companies, this class
had started " an Amelganaated Small Tenant-farmers' Asso-
ciation." What number of shares the Gallant Colonel thought
it right to hold in that speculation he would not pretend to
to say.—(Cheers and laughter.) While, however, he was on
the subject of ignorance, he might be permitted to say that
there was one measure which he would propose, and which,
no doubt, would give satisfaction to the country—(Hear)—
one which would not interrupt unnecessarily the progress of the
business of the House. Hon. Members on his side of the
House, who had accused the Government of treachery, in
not taking the sense of the country upon the subject of their
treachery, they woull be satisfied if the Members of the Go-
vernment would let them carry on unnecessary business of the
country, namely railways ; and when they came back to their
places, after having an opportunity afforded them of appealing
to their constituents, they would be satisfied with them, and
in the interim would carry on all the necessary business of the
country, railways, for they are the only matters of any im-
portance to the country. The Hon. Baronet concluded by
saying, that they ought to rally round and support the corn-
laws as much as they would the Crown.
Lord 'A ORSL EY, although he agreed in full with the Eon.
Gentleman's proposition, yet he did not see what he could gain
by pressing it on for division.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. CU RT EIS wished to correct an observation made a few
evenings since by the Hon. Member for Sunderland.—(Cries
of " Order," and " Chair.") It had been stated in an agricul-
tural speech.—( Renewed cries of " Order.") Well, then, he
would not refer to what had been said, but state plainly that he
was prepared to show that the wages paid the agricultural
labourers in Sussex were not Bs. per week, but 125., and in
some instances 13s. per week.—(Hear.) He (Mr. Curteis) was
a considerable farmer, and he could state that every man in
his employment was paid at the rate of 12s. per week,
He (Mr. Curties) was in favour of a 6s. or 4s. duty, or no
corn• law at al ; and he thought the Hon. Gentleman would
get credit for much more discretion by not pushing his propo-
sition to a division. The farmers complained that they had
not been treated fairly by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head
of the Government ; and many of them were ready to give up
the corn-laws, provided the duty on hops and other imports
were abolished, so that they could then do as they liked with
their own.—( Hear, hear.) For himself, he could say that he
was perfectly rea ly to give up the corn-laws, and that the
agricultural portion of his constituents were ready to do the
same. But he did think that whilst they were about to give
cheap food to the people, they should accede to the wishes of
the hop-growers, by repealing the malt-duty. He should con-
tinue to agitate upon that question until it was settled—(Hear,
hear.) With regard to the qtiestion now before the House, he
would express his belief that the attempt to impede the progress
of Free-trade, was labour in vain, and he therefore hoped that
the amendment would not. be persisted in —( Hear, hear.) But
he would never resteatisfied until the duty ma malt was repealed
hear, and lauuhter)—and this brought him to the
point of the hop-duties.—( Cries of 6. Ohl oh !" and laughter.)
lie begged to slate to the Right lion. Baronet, that he
press upon the House that
should feel it his duty to
an amount, equal in propor:ion to half the excise duties,
should be taken off the protective duties. The Right
Hon. Baronet was going to take ss. of protection
off, and half the excise duty would therefore be about 10s. He
really thought that if the Right lion. Baronet would only con•
sider this question, he would see that it was only fair towards
the hop-growers, that an equal proportion should be taken off
excise duties as was taken cff protection. And now that he
was on his legs—( Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Divide ")—he
would like to mention that, as a farmer, he believed that a very
considerable change was craning over the hop-eroeiers of
Sussex, whatever might be the fate of those in heat. His
constituents had desired him to say that rather than have their
present questionable protection they would be without any at
al:.—( Hear, hear.) It was only fair therefore that the present
duties on malt should be repealed by nay of compensation.
In conclusion he entirely agreed with the Noble Lord ( Wore.-
le y ) that this amendment should be withdrawn.
Mr. HUDSON begged to state, in reply to what had fallen
from the lion. Gentleman opposite, that he had never,
either in that House or in any other place, made any state-
ments at all bearing upon the question of agricultural
labourers' wages in Sussex. He had certainly, during the dis-
cussion on the corn-laws, spoken of the agricultural wages

paid in Wiltshire, in reply to the statements of the Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary at War. flit he lied never made
the moat distant refer nee to Sussex —( Hear.) lie was very
much gratified indeed to hear from the lion. Gentleman
opposite of the amount of wages paid to agricultural labourers
in Sussex, and he had no doubt that the House would be
equally gratified.--( Hear, hear.) Her Majesty's Illinisters
must also feel pleasure vs hen they heard that lab curers were so
liberally treated in the county alluded to.—( Hear, bear. )
Mr. CriRTEIS begged to apologise to the Hon. Member
if he had misrepresented his statements.—( Hear, hear.) But
he was quite sure—( Loud cries of " Order, order, and divide,
divide," in the midst of which the lion. Gentleman resumed
his seat.)
Lord DUNCAN having made a few observations, which did
not reach us,
Mr. W. 0. STANLEY then withdrew his amendment.
Mr. M. MILNES then rose and said, that in bringing for-
ward his present motion he begged and implored the Right
Hon. Baronet to take iota consideration the great importance
of compromising the present question, and thereby bringing
the agitation which was at present so much felt in the country
to a happy termination. He had come to that consideration
from no trifling time spent in examining the question. He
would now shortly state the reasons why he brought forward
the !notion, and he considered the present rate or scale which
he proposed was far more effectual in arranging the question
than the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet; and his (Mr.
Alilnes') scale of duty was simple and extremely moderate, and
ranged over a small amount of prices. In 1842 he thought it
his duty to declare in that House that the scale of averages was
complicated, and much too high, and nothing had occurred since
to alter his opinion. No scale of protection, such as
that the farmers had under the present law, was
at all sufficient to enable them to compete with the foreigner.
lie considered that the formidable combination of the Anti-
' corn-law League would net be less zealous in prosecuting their
designs. They could not obtain immediate peace by passing
something;
ohtr
moewpepaotrsipstnegign,eat thatsbcoi enmeasure,ismtueostfonfh theoaprp,
psoleisi
Right
prospective
tti tvtlehi
enikokgne
legislation,
ia:wtrniooo,
Baronet
toi
et f th,hiadrtideserveen"iel
uponeitha fraosr
d.
founded his measure, not upon a`prls.
ieoreviiidpe,nmcef,:iisotexuppoenrietiniecoeryof,
but upon true inductive princip
the last three years— what experience, however, could he have
bad of the three years to come ? Suppose that in the' year
1849 corn should be the same price as it was in 1835, does he
think that, with corn in England at 375. a quarter, and abunda
ante of corn ready to come in from foreign countries, any
thing would be the consequence of the frightful panic to
the tenant-farmers and producers of the country ? He did not
think it wise to depart from those precautionary measures
which had regulated the trade of this country fur so many
years. The Right Hon. Baronet possessed great popularity in
the country, but let him use it rightly—let him not attempt
anything so rash, or so hazardous as the prospective alteration
in the corn-laws at the end of three years. It was easy for the
Minister of a country to give a great victory to one
party over another, and if this measure was passed
in its present state, it would be regarded by one
class as a most triumphant victory over another
class—a victory which would not fail to leave a deep-rooted
malice in the heart of society, and which it would be impossible
to eradies e. If he might be allowed to say a few words to the
protectionist party, he would say that he thought they had not
acted so wisely or energetically on the present occasion, in re-
fusing all compromise on the present question. He thought
they should not refuse to vote with the lion. Member who
moved the last amendment. Whatever might be the increase
of the population of this country, he considered it unwise in
them to resist any alteration of the law of 1842. He could not
conceive how any person, regarding the enormous increase of the
population, could regard the corn-law of 1842 as any thing better
than a temporary measure, for the purpose of developing the
industrial resources of the country. When he looked upon the
map of the world, and saw the small amount of acreage of this
country compared with the rest of the world, and when he con-
airier d also that England was the only wheat-eating country in
the world, he really could not conceive how Hon. Members
could wish to preserve the law of 1842 intact. He begged the
Right Hon. Baronet to act with his usual prudence in this mat-
ter, and he would not fail to reap an abundant reward. Ile
knew the difficult position in which the Right Hon. Baronet
was placed, in endeavouring to sustain in harmonious connexion
the institutions of an ancient monarchy, a dignified and honor-
aye aristocracy, and a free people. He hoped however that the
Right lion. Baronet would not, by persisting in this measure,
hold up to the world the spectacle of a conflict between the
mobile classes and the aristocrecy. He begged him to submit
to the expae,,,sion of public opinion. He would not by thus
doing compromise his character, but would show to the world
that he is the Minister not of one class but of the cornhined
energies of the people.
Mr. AGLIONBY did not wish to place any obstruction to
the progress of the present Bill. He would, however, call the
attention of the Right lion. Baronet to the situation of a great
nnmber of persona resident in the North of England, which he
considered connected with the corn-laws. He did not think
any person could predicate the results of the present measure.
He found from the speeches which lied been made by Hon.
Members on both sides of the House that different results had
been predicted. His conviction was, that the price of corn
would be reduced by it. It had been said that at all events the
farmer would be able to compete with this state of things by an
increase of capital and skill, but in some parts of Cumberland
there are very few large estates and they are in the hurls of a
class of persons called statesmen, a term anala,gous to that of
yeoman. They have no capital, their farms are small, and
cultivated for the most part by members of their own families.
They may no doubt apply themselves to chemical agriculture;
this House could not give them capital, but it could relieve them
from the difficulties under which they laboured. They are at
present under the remnant of a system of feudal tenure. Their
farms were all held by copyhold. They are subject to a two
years' fine on change of proprietorship. Upon the
(heath of the Lord of the Manor they were also sub-
ject to a two years' flue upon every acre of land.
He did not wish to be understood by this statement, that he
was opposing the present Bill. He was in favour of the mea-
sure, but he wanted to do that which was fair and just, and
which might result to the benefit of the country. Ile consi-
dered that the House had power to enfranchise these copyliolds,
and thus render the farmers and their families independent of
the results Is birth must fohow the passing the present mctsur s.
The Hon. Member referred to a repot t of a Committee of thet
House, appointed to inquire into the law of copyhold tenure,
presented to that (louse on the 13th of August, 1838, of which
the Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel) was a member. It was
the opinion of that Committee, that the abolition of a tenure
of this nature would be profitable to the country. He (Mr.
Aglionby) would not press]the question at the present period ;
but at some future stage of the proceedings, when he could
have a full discussion, and would be able to enter more into
the details, he would bring it under the notice of the 'Luse.
Sir R. PEEL hoped that the Hon. Member for Pontefract
(Mr. M. Milnes) would not think him gulity of disrespect, if
ho disclaimed entering into the consideration of his remarks.
He could not do so without dividing the whole question.
When he proposed his measure, he stated the reasons which
had induced him to believe that it was desirable for all parties
that a time had arrived for the final settlement of this ques-
tion. lie could not he felt enter into the question with the
Hon. Member, without opening the whole question again. lie
must therefore, state that he dissented from the, proposition of
the Hon; Member, and he could not therefore consent
to the re-opening of the question, the principle of which had
been decided by a large majority of that House, composed in a
great measure of Hon. Members who considered a total and
immediate repeal preferable, but who had on that occasion
voted in favour of the measures of her Majesty's Ministers.
The Hon. Gentleman says it would be a great advantage, but
he seemed to forget that there was another class which would
object to it. The present law gave the same facilities, but still
it would be very desirable, he admitted, to avoid the expenses
of transferring property, and the inconveniences which some-
times occurred. The greatest disadvantage was felt by those
who had to purchase small properties—it was felt by them
more than by those who had the power of buying largely, for
the expense was not so much a matter of complaint as the
inconvenience felt by delay. The impediments for the transfer
of property were, lie admitted, very great, but still he thought
it would be very unwi eto discuss that question there. At the
same time he had no objection that the Hon. Gentleman
should reserve to himself the full power of bringing it under
the consideration of the House on some future occasion.

Mr. MILES said that the question was to him and-his party
a great question of principle. He understood that they would
have full and ample debates, and he could assure the House
that the feelings of the Members who were opposed to free trade
principles which would be known throughout the country.
When they arrived at that election, mo.iiet: they be-
lieved was not far aft, then it would be known whether their
opinions or those of the Right Hon. Baronet were the most
agreeable; and ho would assure the Right Hon. Baronet that
until then, it was not his wish to say one word, or throw any
impediment in his way, more than was absolutely necessary.
All he would say was, that with all the amendments proposed
he entirely disagreed, and he would endeavour to retain that
law which the Right Hon. Baronet seemed so anxious to
abolish. All he wished was a full, deliberate, and ample
discussion of the question, in order that the convit-tirtheolinthto
country may be arrive at. It was necessaryi
ak
gnroiweniiityurouuir
produce.statements
Hthea tctohnesriedewroeudldt
that
stitywaotudlilbweesisrniopnoisn II
changes
,
Bible for the present holderstion ifefthe contemplatedfarins
toretain them,
or to maintain their position,
were carried into effect.—( Hear, hear.) He was anxious
few words on the change which was said
to say a
to have taken place in his opinion respecting the immediate
repeal in preference to the distant repeal of the corn- laws.
Tho Right Hon. Baronet conceived that it was his (Mr.
Mites's) opinion that be should prefer the measure of the Noble
Lord the member for London to that of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. Now, what he stated was, that he would give his
decided opposition to the propositions of both, at the same
time, as far as the farmers were concerned, he (Mr. Mites)
stated that he believed they would prefer the measure of the
Noble Lord to that of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
her Majesty's Government. The Hon. Member for Dor-
chester bears me out in the statement that he now made, to
he similar to that which he made on a former occasion. He
hoped and trusted, a great discussion having taken place, that
another would not then be introduced ; at the same time, he
was ready to go on with it if it were for the public service to
do so.—(No, no.) He wished it to be distinctly understood,
that though they allowed those resolutions to pass, they were
opposed to every one of them, and that they allowed them to
proceed pro fornid, in order to oppose them on the second and
third reading, and finally come to a division, in older to show
to the country that they opposed the resolutions brought for-
ward
Sir by
R spt hße
ERRi tr,
EH
EonL.
slai ai
dr oint et.
would be most unjust to expect
oGtit,notlmemeaasnotaocceind, dcotommthitetoree.sl
he was
basecaouoste
ttoh e
oHpopno:
o.ut.on,
It iwas
never further from his intention •
than to suppose that the Hon.
Gentleman would not oppose the Bill. although he distinctly
declared that he wouldprefer
the proposition of the Noble
Lord the Member fur London to deferred repeal, although he
preferred the existing law to either.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Miles) stated, that if the Noble Lord the
Member for London stood to his guns, he would be ready to
support him.—(A laugh.) It appeared to him that the lion.
Gentleman was somewhat inconsistent when he said he hoped
there was no difference between them. When the lion. Gen-
tleman states he would not enter into the question, then at the
same time it was hardly fair of him to say there would be a
great downfall of prices, without at the same time stating any
arguments to support him. When he ( Sir R. Peel) proposed
a removal of prohibitory duties on a former occasion, by the
introduction of cattle, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Miles) then
begged for a reduction of the duty upon barley, for the pur-
pose of feeding the cattle in this country, and said that there
would be an enormous depression in the price of meat unless
such were done; but he (Sir 11. Peel) did not yet see any ve-
rification of that prophecy.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. MILES said, that when he made that statement, it was
not his own individual opinion. He was merely giving cut-
door opinion—(Cries of " Oh. oh")—and he did Lot state
that foreign cattle would accumulate, and give that fact as a
reason for the increase of price,, which evidently would not
take place. He hoped he had not proved himself so tallies
H
prophet as the Right on. Baronet would make hi m
by
him.
would be ready at a future period of the question to show
this country
convincing arguments that the price of corn In
must fall by the introduction of grain from foreign countries by
a free-trade measure.
Mr. BURROWS could inform the House that the copy-
hold farmers were suffering under many disadvantages. They
were invaria which
they were subjected,
bly complaining of the many charges to
and he had, upon Inquiry of the sur-
veyors of the districts, found that the farmers were generally
subjected to many charges.
Mr. HUME would advise her Majesty's Ministers to follow
the advice of the Committee which had made its report in