The Sun.
London, England, 1848-02-23 00:00:00

TFLEB

in that HOW, the Noble L-)rd aid his collpav,ues might
biri a speedy adieu to offi,..—(Herr.) Ic mig‘:t
asked, who were the men to take their phces ? Would
he (Colonel Sibliorp)?----(flcar, and a Itiugh.) For no
price in the world would he accept office —(ltenewe:
hughter.) But he would say to the people of this
country, " Take your stand, and do your duty as En::
lishmen ought to do, and you will soon find an honest

Ministry."-L(llear. hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—There was one misappre-
hension into which the Hon. Member for Buckingham
shire (Mr. Disraeli) had fallen, which, considering the
study he had devoted to the subject, was somewhat
extraordinary. The Honourable Member stated that
the appointment of a Select Committee was an abandon-
ment by the House of its privilege of voting and criti-
cising the estimates. Nothing could be more roitgketi
than that view. The appointment of a Select Committee,
though it gave the House the benefit of the information
it Gbtained, and perhaps the opinion to which it might
arrive, by no means deprived the House of the power it
possessed of voting or refusing the estimates. The Hon.
Gentleman, though he showed that the precedents
former years were not exactly followed in this caao. had
failed in showing that they were not so nearly followed
as circumstances permitted; nor that those precedents
did not form authority for the course Ministers were
now pursuing; nor wits it unfair t.) say that, whereas
in former times when the income of the country was
much less than at present, and the expenditure greatly
contracted, all subjects relating to such income wcr
referred to one Committee.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
when both the income and expenditure were s,
largely increased, one Committee could not well
extend its inquiries to all those subjects; and that,
therefore, the investigation should be limited, in the first
instance, to certain branches only of the whole subject.
This was not abandoning precedent, it was merely
adapting it to the present time and to present circum-
stances. It did not appear to him necessary in the first
instance to do more than to appoint a Committee on the
miscellaneous estimates, and it was the misapprehension
which appeared to prevail as to the estimates generally
which had induced him to think it advisable to have the

whole matter calmly and dispassionately considered by a
Committee of the flouse of Commons. The Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had spoken correctly when he
said that, with respect to the navy and army, Govern-
ment did not propose any increase in the present votes
over those of last year, and tie slight increase which it
was proposed to make in the number of the marines was
not in consequence of any alarm which had infected
Ministers, nor of anything they had board as to what
might be doing by foreign countries; but it was merely
carrying out an object which had been announced last
year.—(Hear, hear.) So far from proposing any
great armament, it was proposed to take only the
same number of men for the army and navy as
were voted last year, together with that addition to the
number of marines which last year it had been thought
advisable to make, but which addition had been deferred
till the present year. It might not have occupied any
very long time had these matters been left to bo dis-
cussed by the Committee of the whole House, but it
had been thought that perhaps upon the whole it might
be more satisfactory that there should be an inquiry
more i❑ detail than could be carried on by the House,
and that they should have the advantage of such sug-
g,estions for future economy as might be made by the
Committee. With regard to the number of men to be
voted, Government did not wish to get rid of any part of
their responsibility: they thought that the consideration
of such matters properly belonged to the Executive.:
which ought to propose to the House such amount of
force for the several departments of the public service
as they, acting on their responsibility, thought neces-
sary. No doubt the House had also a responsibility
i❑ the matter, and if they should bo of opinion that

the estimates proposed by Government Here ex
cessive, and should decide upon cutting them down, by
taking 10,000, or any other number, of men from the
army and navy, and the Government did not consider
that such a reduction could with safety be made, it
would be their duty to abdicate their offices.—(Bear.)
He was extremely sorry to learn that in the case of such
an event arising, her Majesty would not have the benefit
of the services of the Hon. and Gallant Colonel (Sib-
thorp).—(A laugh.) Before he sat down he wished to
correct a misapprehension into which the Hon. Member
for Manchester and others had fallen, in supposing from
what he said on Friday night that he proposed to in-
crease the estimates for the military forces of the country
year by year: whatever the language he had used on the
occasion referred to, that was by no means his meaning.
—(Hear.) He had heard much—perhaps more than the
public generally—of the insufficiency of the force we had
to repel any attempt at foreign aggression, and of the
neglect of Government in making preparations for the
sudden breaking out of hostilities. and he endeavoured to
show that that subject had not been lost sight of ; that
by continuing, year by year, in the course they had
adopted, of devoting a certain sum every year to the im-
provement of our national defences, without making any
actual increase in the force employed, they were placing
the country in such a situation of strength, that there
was no reason to fear for the revolt in the event of any
sudden outbreak of hostilities. and that by laying out the
same sum, or even a diminished sum every year in this
way, our position became strengthened year by year.
This was the view in which he spoke, and his ob-
ject was to show that what it was complained that
Government had not done, had in fact been done
by each successive Government for years past. He
concurred with the Hon. Member for Manchester that
the colonies might fairly be made to bear a portion of
the expense incurred in the defence. —(Hear, hear.)
Government could not permit the life and property of
its subjects to be destroyed in our colonies, and means
must therefore be provided for their protection, but he
fully admitted that it was hard to call upon the mother
country to bear the whole expense.—(Hear, hear.) In
the same way, whenever British subjects were in foreign
countries, in case of danger or outrage, whether arising;
from the act of the Government or from popular insur-

rection, it was expected that the property and persons
of those subjects would be protected by a British force.
This necessity for protection might occur in any part of
the world. If British subjects were in danger in Mes-
sina, in Palermo, or in the Canton river, the question
was, " Where is the British ship to protect us ?" And
Government would be open to blame if they did pro-
vide less protection than British subjects had hitherto
received, or if the name of an Englishman was leas an
object of respect in foreign countries than it used to be
in former times, He did not shrink from the part he
had taken in proposing those estimates, and he assured
the Noble Lord (Bentinck) that while he (Lord J.
Russell) held the office ho did he would never shrink
from that responsibility which attached to him, and that
he wanted no Cotnunitte to screen him from the con-
sequences.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BANKES concurred with his lion. Friend (Mr.
Disraeli), that by at pointing this Committee the respon-
sibility was in a Great degree withdrawn, both from the
Ministers of the Crown and the House of Commons.
The inquiry was proposed only in consequence of the
notice given by the Hon. Member for Montrose to post-
pone the estimates until after the decision of the House
on the Budget. He feared the inquiry might be so far
mischievous as it might lead foreigners to suppose that
the object was to make preparations for hostilities. In
other respects he concurred with the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Sir R. Peel) that the people who were now called
upon to bear, in addition to their present distress, in-
creased taxation, should be satisfied the proposed esti-
mates were absolutely necessary fur the public service.
If the results should be to show that a reduction of the
expenditure of the country was possible it would be re-
ceived with gratitude by the public. With regard to
the misapprehension to which the Noble Lord'' had
alluded, he believed it had arisen from his saying that
the 150,0001. he proposed for the establishment of a
militia force was the beginning of a new system. Ho
(Mr. Bankes) hoped they would have no more of this
militia vote this year, and if the militia should ever again
be established, he trusted that the service would be
voluntary and not compulsory.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS objected to any Government dele-
gating its functions to others, and governing the country
by means of a Committee of the House of Commons. The
only consolation he had in the present case was in the
assurance given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
repeated by his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell), that
Goverment intended to abide by their estimate to the
letter, and that if they were not approved of by the
Committee, and the House should in consequence make
any alteration in them, his Noble Friend would abdi••
sate his office.—(Hear, hear.) If he adopted any such
alteration, either in principle, distribution, or amount,
he would be utterly unworthy of the confidence of the
House and the position he held—(Hear, hear)—and it
was only because he believed from his Noble Friend's
high character that he would adhere, under any circum-
stances, to his own estimates, and not adopt any other,
that he permitted this motion to pass without dividing
against it.
Captain HARRIS contended that the alarm as to
foreign invasion was not altogether unfounded, seeing
the propability of the war party in France coming into
power.—(Oh, oh.) It was within the limits of proba-
bility that within a few years a body of foreign troops
might be thrown on our shores, and if so, it was the
opinion of the leading officers of both services that our
defences ware net equal to such an emergency.
'Mr. SLANEY hoped the Committee would extend
their inquiry to the altered value of money of late years
as compared with the price of articles of necessity, with
the view of ascertaining how far the salaries of public
officers might be reduced. Should the Committee re-
commend reduction, and the Noble Lerd should be con-
vinced that it might be r.dopted without injury to the
public service, he hoped that he would act upon such re•
commendation, notwithstanding the appeal of the Hon.
Member for Oxford University.—(Hear.)
Mr. S. CRAWFORD looked to this Committee as a
convenient moans of propping up extravagance.—
(Hear, hear.) The estimates ought to be subjected to
the freest discussion in the House without being referred
to any Select Committee.
Mr. COBDEN said that in the reasons put forward
against these Committees be did not concur.—(Hear.)
He did not conceive that by their appointment the juris-
diction of the House was taken away. They were to be
appointed for the purpose of examining into the details
of the miscellaneous, the army, the navy, and the ord-
nance, services, and whatever might be their decision,
he should feel himself perfectly at liberty to vote with
the Hon. Member for Montrose against any increase in
these departments. It was supposed both in and out of
that House, that those Committees would disclose some
mysterious secrets. Now, lie believed that there were
no secrets to be disclosed. He believed that the
newspapers of the day communicated to the public the
secrets of every Government, sooner even than the
diplomatists themselves. The day for plots and national
conspiracies was gone by, and, as for France, she could
not dispose of a five-franc piece without its becoming
matter of discussion in the Chamber of Deputies. He,
therefore, contended that those Committees in no way
deprived Hon. Members of their right to vote upon any
estimate submitted to them. Ile maintained, on the