The Sun.
London, England, 1848-02-29 00:00:00

THE SUN LONDON, TUESDAY, EVENING, FEBRUARY 29, 18-18.

i

tax. It is quite true that the tax was only proposed for
a time; but, under the cireurnstarces in which it was
tiPqrno_p,ei,sed, I will venture to say that no man could rea-
t„Tly entertain the idea that it was to be temporary.
been such being the state of the case—such having
the course of financial legislation—such having
been_en the unanimous acquiescence of the House in the
ewal of this tax, I must say that I think it would
havev been an extraordinary course to have proposed the
ctizersal of the financial legislation which for the last
n Years has been so unanimously sanctioned by the
uOuse wad by the country. If we had done this, and
rp.osed a renewal of the indirect taxes uieon corn and
wool, and have raised the duty on sugar and timber, it
heads
at once have been said that we were running our
,e,.(1 against public opinion, and the express and re-
,F,0.,;e4 [minion of this House.—(Elear, hear.) We ac-
in'uuegly proposed as our first measure to renew the
be five
for a limited time. Whether that time is to
7 n7O or three years is a question for the consideration
te the Committee on the 8.11. It does not folloW that
if we hvd had recourse to indirect taxation, sup-
rt.,()_s!og there was to be no change, it wouli, in a le-s
p 14 than fire years, raise the income up to the
5;
nOO,OOOl we should lose by taking off the income-tax.
tut, even with the renewal of the income-tax as it stands,
in
_found there would be a considerable deficiency in the
trine; and the question comes to be how is that defi-
thee"). to be made up? I believe I have stated before,
ila(?tyyopinion the existence of that deficiency would
felt
for a time. It was obvious that the large
Payments on account of the Kafir war and the excess of
ri
exeeediture would cease to appear. My Hon.
hriend (lair. Ward) has stated, and I have repeated to-
bight,(i_ that 'the greater portion of the works in our
dockyards will be coenpletely finished in the course of
,f
months, or, at most, in two years; and that atter that
.".ele there will be no need for any further expenditure
,u,n that head. The country will have the benefit of
`l._lese works, while it will be unnecessary to continue the
Pctditure for them. I think, also, we may look, in a
short` time, to other items for a reduction—such, for
lotatance, as that from the building of the Houses
Parliament. I think, therefore, we are perfectly
Justified in considering the increased expenditure
as nierely of a temporary character. how then were
e
to provide for this temporary increase ? It would
hardly have been wise, in my opinion, to impose new
taxes and to derange commerce and trade for a temporary
ve_4!Pose• We might have proposed a per-centage on
has
isting taxation ; but I do not think the experiment
succeeded which we made in this way before.—
(Hear, hear.) It has been, in fact, a total failure. We
:night have imposed it upon the assessed taxes alone ;
but, looking at the assessed taxes for the last four or
five years, I find there has been a considerable falling
°lr and we could not therefore depend upon a certain
le crease of revenue from imposing an additional per.
_,;entage upon the assessed taxes. There remained then
eioesible per-centage on the income-tax, and from this
source we were as certain as we can possibly be of
anything future that we should derive an increase of
revenue without any additional expense to the country.
e
knew that the whole amount imposed as an addition
7ould be received into the Exchequer. However painful
was to impose this tax, I was, and still am of
°Pin
ion, that it would be the cheapest mode of pro-
viding for the temporary emergency. There were
various questions raised on former occasions with
reference to this tax, one of which the Hon. Member
for
Marylebone (Sir B. Hall) proposes to raise on the
Present occasion—l mean the extension of the tax to
Ireland. Now, in my opini na, if this tax is to be conti-
nued
beyond the temporary emergency, then Ireland, as
...ell as Great Britain, ought to pay it.—(Loud cheers.)
iesrtmember, it was distinctly stated by the late Mr.
O'Connell, that Ireland could not bear to have such a
es this imposed upon her. But, whether Ireland
could bear such a tax under ordinary circumstances, and
'whether she could bear it as she is at present situated,
are two widely different questions. It may be that Ire-
land, in ordinary years, is quite able to pay this tax, but
Ithink it would be equally inexpedient and unwise to
attempt to impose it on the present occasion. Nobody
Who has attended to recent events iu Ireland can fail to
aee that she is still labouring under the effect of a great
calamity. If Honourable Gentlemen have referred to a
Paper recently laid on the table of this House, namely,
the return showing the amount of pcor-rate collected
during the last two years, they will be aware that there
nas been an enormous increase of payment on that
score, and especially during the last two months. No
uoubt they ou;,ht to pay for their own poor ; and it is
unreasonable to expect that the people of this country,
suffering as they are themselves, should pay fur
leeee—(Hear, hear)—but, at the same time, we cannot
but look at the amount of taxation they have to bear in
this way ; and my belief is, that if we were to impose the
Income-tax upon them at present, it would discourage the
exertions which are being made by the landlords and
farmers throughout that country fur the employment of
the people.—(Hear, hear.) It would discourage that
Upon which the future improvement of Ireland depends
--the employment of the people. If Hon. Gentlemen
have not looked at that document, they will perhaps
allow me to quote a few figures from it, showing the
increase of these payments. In 1846, the whole amount
of poor-rate paid in Ireland was only 390,0001. ;in
1847 it was increased to 970,0001. ; but if Hon. Gentle-
men will refer to the last two months, they will see that
Whereas in the last two months of 1846 the poor-rates
collected amounted to 109,0001., they amounted in the
last two months of 1847, to 441,0001., or more than
quadruple the former sum.—(Hear, hear.) Since that
return was laid upon the table we have received a state-
ment showing the amount collected in January, 1847, as
Compared with January, 1848. In January, 1847, the
!mount collected was 52,0001. ; whereas, in Jan., 1848,
it was upwards, of 190,0001., or at the rate of 2,000,0001.
Per aunum.—(Hear.) I confess, then, that looking at
this circumstance, and considering that they must ne-
cessarily continue to collect the poor-rate for the main-
tenance of the poor in that country, I do think that it
'would not be politic or wise to attempt to impose any
further I
confess pa I
do mennot think it would be t u n them during the
wor th present year.
while, be-
cause I believe Honourable Gentlemen would be very
tench disappointed in the amount we should probably
receive. I was astonished to find that the whole of
Scotland yielded only 400,0001.; and I have no reason
to believe that we should get as much from Ireland,
because we must bear in mind that a large portion of
the landed proprietors reside in this country, and neces-
'oily pay income-tax already.—(Hear, hear.) The
*mount we should derive from Ireland, then, I do not
believe would be very large. We proposed, as I have
said, to renew the income-tax for a limited time with
an increase per cent. for a period of two years, in order
to meet the extraordinary expenditute. I have been
asked whether I will promise to take it off at the end
of two years. I said, and I say again, that it would be
exceedingly unwise to make any promise on the subject.
--(Laughter.) Can any one foresee what will be the
state of this country two years hence?—(Hear, hear.)
usta any one foresee what it will be in a much shorter
Period ?—(Hear, hear.) How long is it since an Hon.
Gentleman, recently arrived from France (Mr. Cobden),
stateel to this Reuse that there could be no object for a
revolution there ?—(Shouts of laughter.) The truth is
that the wisest and best of men may be misinformed ;
and I believe that not only that Hon. Gentleman, but
everybody in this country, and France too, has been
• lnu2h surprised at the events which have taken place
there during the last ten days.—(Hear, hear.) I could
nut, therefore, undertake to say that the 5 per cent
would not be renewed at the end of two years ; but I
took occasion to show the House the probability that it
could be so taken off. These, then, were the proposals
Which we made to the House,—that the country should
be called upon, for a limited time, to pay this tax in the
'banner and to the amount which for successive years
they had been agreeable to do ; and, further, that they
should submit for a still more limited time to an
increased amount of the same kind. I cannot say that
the proposal which Government made has been well
received.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," and laughter.)
I must admit that from all quarters of the House,
and from all parts of the country, we have received
the most unequivocal demonstrations of the disapproval
of the increase of 2 per cent.—(Hear, hear.) We have
found, too, that those who on former occasions suppopted
the change from indirect to direct taxation were louder
in their opposition on this occasion than any others.
The Hon. Member for Cocker south has given notice of
his intention to propose a motion with a view of render
ing the tax more fair and equal in its operation. The
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth (Mr.
F. Baring) said that the tax was unequal, but that he did
not see any practicable remedy ; and I suspect that when
the Hon. Member (slr. Horsman) comes to inquire into
the mode of operation of the plan he proposes, he will
find it as full of grose inequalities as the plan in existence.
I don't say that one's first impression is not against the
inequality of the tax, as at present imposed ; but I say
that, taking up the matter in a perfectly impartial spirit,
evils will also be found the other way. I recollect
that an Hon. Gentleman, not now a Member of this
/louse, but who formerly represented Kendal (Mr.
Warburton), used to maintain that the present was a
Perfectly just and equal rate of taxation. I mention these
things to show that the matter, at all events, is not so
Clear as to be free from doubt.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Member for Manchester has another proposal. He pro-
Poses to meet the existing deficiency by extending the
Probate and legacy duty to real property. I believe
there is some injustice in the mode in which the probate
and legacy duties are at present imposed; but there are
many difficulties in the way of the Hon. Gentleman's
Proposal, arid a great deal may be said on the other
side. If these duties are to be put on an equal footing,
there are other duties which would require to be pissed
On an equal footing also. There is a Bill which we are
in the habit of passing annually to exempt stock in,
trade; and if gentlemen who own real property were to
ask us to put that on an equal footing, I do not know
how we could possibly refuse to do so in the one case as
well as in the other.—(Hear, hear.) I do not give an
°Pinion either one way or the other. All I wish to
say is, that it is not quite so simple and easy a matter
as Honourable Gentlemen are apt to suppose ; and
that if it is to be dealt with satisfactorily we can
Only do it after a long and careful inquiry, not into
yOne duty alone bet into many. But, whatever opinion
lion. Gentlemen may entertain upon this subject, there
as I have said before, a unanimous concurrence in
Objecting to the additional 2 per cent. on the income-
tax. I still think that the proposal was one which it
wculd have been for the benefit of the country to submit
to. But I must say, on the part of Government, that if
there 4 is one subject upon which the representatives of
the
people have a right to dictate to the Government, it
is upon such an occasion.—(Hear, hear.) I have, there-
fore, though not without regret, to announce on the part
• of the Government, that we do not mean to press the
res,:lution which implies an addition to the income-tax.
--(Cheers and laughter.) I repeat that Ido it not without
regret, because I think that in the present circumstances
of the country a full Exchequer is a great thing. I
be very sorry to draw upon the balances, however
laLgs, which, on former occasion, afforded us the means
„
instantly relieving the distress of Ireland. We pro-

pose, however, that the expense of the Kafir war and the
naval excess shall be defrayed from the balances of the
present year. Supposing the income-tax to be continued
at its present rate, this will leave a deficiency of
1,500,000/. or 2,000,000/. No doubt the balance is very
high, and might bear, perhaps, to be drawn upon fur the
whole amount o f the deficiency in the course of the en-
suin e year. But if that is to be so, if we are to rely on
high balances, and the reduction of those balances in
times of adversity—and no doubt it is an advantage that
is derived from the existence of those high balances—
then we must keep up the ordinary average of the re-
venue, so that if not in the course of one year, at least
on the average of three or four years, the revenue may
meet the expenditure. But it evidently will not be so
unless the House consents to a renewal of the income-
tax.—(flear, hear.) I think when the Government make
this concession to the popular will, as expressed by the
representatives of the people in this House, they will not
refuse to renew the income-tax at its present amount fur
a period of three years. That I believe will be the time
for which it will be necessary, and with such reductions
as may be made in future years, anti with such in-
crease as may be expected in the revenue, we may hope
that on an average it may bring the income and expen-
diture to an equality ; so that, although we may fall
upon the balance this year, yet on the average of those
three years, we may find a balance. I have in this
statement put the case at its worst ; but when I make
this statement I will not pledge myself that this is the
course the Government will ultimately pursue.—(Hear,
hear.) I must leave it open to the Government, if upon
consideration they shall think fit to propose some amount
of taxation which shall canalise the income and expen-
diture within the year. Ido not think that Honourable
Gentlemen will expect that I should upon the present
occasion state what the intentions of the Government
may be after a full and fair consideration of the cir-
cumstances. That must remain for the consideration of
the Government at a future time. I will only state
that it is the intention of the Government now to
abandon the proposed increase of the income-tax, and
to ask for its renewal at its present amount for three
years.—(Hear, hear.) I am sorry the opinion of
the House should have led to this conclusion. I
believe it would in many respects have been better that
the increased burden should be submitted to; whether
the emergency can be met by a diminution of expendi-
ture or by a change of taxation in some other way, is
for the future consideration of the Government; but
what I do ask of this house is, that they will consent to
the first resolution I shall move in Committee, which is
to renew the present income-tax for a further period of
three years. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by
moving the order of the day for the House to resolve
itself into a Committee of Ways and Means.
Mr. lIUME would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman
whether be thought he had made any communication to
the House which would, in any way, alter the opinion
that had been formed both by himself (Mr. Hume) and
others in that House and out of it, upon the plan pro-
posed by the Government? The only modification of
the original plan was, that instead of proposing five per
cent. for two years, the Government would be satisfied
with the present tax for three years; but admitting all
the inequality and injustice of the tax, the Right lion.
Gentleman proposed no other modification. How could
he expect that that House would renew a tax so unjust—
(Hear, hear)—so unequal in its operations, as had been
admitted on all hands—(Hear, hear)—under the idea of
its being merely temporary? The Right Honour-
able Baronet who introduced the tax asked, two
years ago, for its renewal. The House thought it
right to maintain it in consequence of the change of tax-
ation; and, upon that ground, he (Mr. Hume) agreed to
it. lie did so because an object had been attained of
immense importance to the country. It was at first
submitted to under the idea of an experiment in pro-
ceeding from indirect to direct taxation. First one
Chancellor of the Exchequer and then another said,
" Only agree to this, and by and by you shall have the
inequalities adjusted."—(Hear.) He thought the House
ought not to concur in renewing the tax at all—(Hear,
hear)—he said at all—after the language of the Right
lion. Baronet, who said that there was little chance of
any redemption of that tax, and that he would not
meddle with the votes ; and also after what had been
stated by the Noble Lord the other night, when he spoke
of the Committees about to be appointed, and placed
them on a very different footing from that which he
(Hr. Hume) had expected. The Noble Lord told the
House that those Committees would not have to consider
the votes for the navy, army, and ordnance, as those
would rest with her Majesty's Ministers, and that they
would be appointed only to ascertain what number of
men should be kept; taking it, therefore, out of the power
of those Committees to have any effect towards a re-
duction, and more espectially, when they were told that,
out of the 54,000,0001. of taxation, only 18,000,000/
could be touched. There were many items charged upon
the consolidated fund that ought to be considered and
taken off; they ought to undergo a full revision; and
when they were told that there was to be no reduction in
the amount of the troops, and when the Noble Lord
himself admitted that whilst in 1833, 1834, and 1835,
the number of men in the navy, army, and ordnance was
sufficient, and that we had nu .r 195,000 men, and 6,000
men coming from India, exclusive of 10,000 pensioners,
the dockyard battalions, the coast guard, yeomanry, and
.•
pooce, making in all nearly 250,000 in the army, to talk
of renewing that tax for three years, or even for one
year, without expressing any decided determination to
reduce and bring down the expenditure, was perfect
folly. In the last year, had the Right Hon. Baronet in-
stituted any inquiry into the expenditure? Twice in the
year had he (Mr. Hume) suggested to the Government
the propriety of making a strict inquiry into the votes
before the House, and if there were anything which
more than another he would counsel the Government, it
was to make a reduction instanter.—(Elear, hear.) After
what had occurred recently in France, from the conduct
he believed, of a few, might it not be supposed that if
we kept up a large and increased army, it was done in
order to be prepared to annoy them? But let them
show the French people that they had confidence in
them—and after the excellent declaration of the Noble
Lord, that the people of France were to be allowed to
form their Government as they pleased, and without in-
terference, let them reduce their army some 40,000 or
50,000 men; that would be the best way of maintaining
peace. It was very bad counsel in the Government to
think that they were to be allowed to go on in the way
they proposed, after the clear and undoubted declara-
tion that had been made with regard to France.(Hear,
hear.) Let them reduce the expenditure—let them
equalise the legacy duty upon the commercial and agri-
cultural interests—and let them lay the burdens fairly
and equally upon all. Upon that ground he did
not think the House of Commons would pass any
such measure as was now proposed, even for one
year; and he was sure that if they were to allow the
Government to draw on the present occasion from the
balance in the Exchequer, which was now 8,500,0001., they
would find the public drawn into exactly the same
situation they were in when the same Right lion. Gen-
tlemen were in office before ; at that time they found in
the Exchequer a balance of 8,000,0001. or 9,000,0001.,
and they left, only 1,500,0001. He wanted the Right
Hon. Gentleman to believe that the Government would
not possess the confidence of the country if they pur-
sued the course they proposed; and after the declara-
tion that they had made, he should certainly give a
direct negative against the plan, in order that they
might propose a budget which was better suited to the
state of the country.
Mr. OSBORNE said, that as far as his experience or
knowledge of the feelings of a very considerable consti-
tuency went, he did not think they would be inclined
to receive the statement that had been made by the
Right Hon. Gentleman that evening with the great gra-
tification which that House had evinced.—(Hear, hear.)
It was not so much the additional two per cent. of this
income tax that the industrious classes of the country
objected to—(Hear, hear)—it was the principle of the
tax; and when the Right Hon. Gentleman told the
House and the country that he was fortified by the
dictum of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, that
it was almost impracticable to make this tax equal,
he said it was the duty of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer and the Ministers to endeavour
to re-adjust it in some way that should
make it less odious and more just than it was at that
moment.—(Hear, hear.) The tax that was proposed to
be imposed was iniquitous, odious, and unjust, and it
showed a miserable poverty of invention on the part of
any Chancellor of the Exchequer to think that the tax
into which the House bad been entrapped by the Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, who told them
that it would be merely for three years, and that what
they lost in the tax would be mode up to them by the
tariff—(Hear)—could not be more fairly adjusted, when
the Right Hon. Gentleman who proposed the tax had
offered them inducements to pass it in a somewhat de-
ceptious manner, but it became that House to consider
whether under such circumstances it would agree to it
now even for one year. As far as he was concerned, he
should take the same course that he took in 1845. The
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
said that at that time there was no opposition to the
tax. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to be as ig-
norant on that subject as lie proved himself on the ap-
appointmect of a Select Committee, for he (Mr.
Osborne) found that in the year 1845 he moved that
the measure be reed a second time that day six
months, and he was on that occasion supported by
six Members of the present Government.—(Hear, hear.)
At the time that Hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary
for the Colonies made one of his most able two hours
speeches, and voted against the income-tax. The Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Hawes) said, " The income-tax was
injurious to the country, as well to the labouring classes
as to those who had to contribute to it."—(Elear, hear.)
Mr. C. Buller, Viscount Ebrington, Colonel Anson, and
Mr. Sheil, all voted against it, and the latter Hon. Gen-
tleman even opposed it on the score of religion.—(Hear,
hear:) The Right Hon. Baronet, therefore, was bound
to have told the House that opposition was made to it in
1845, and he (Mr. Osborne) hoped the same Right Hon.
Gentleman would do the same now, upon the score that
it would be injurious to the working classes as well as to
those by hem it was paid, and that they would resist
the preposition for renewing the tax even for one year.
He certainly should feel it his duty, as an independent
Member of Parliament, to divide the House on the prin-
ciple of this tax, looking at it, as he did, as one of the
most odious taxes a Minister could impose, and to show
the country it was a principle to which he was opposed.
Mr. CARDWELL hoped the Right Hon. Baronet
would not think it necessary to call on the House et
that time to express its opinion on this subject.—
(Cheers.) When the Noble Lord made his financial
statement, ten days were thought a reasonable period
for the House and the country to consider it; and now,
after the lapse of that time, the Right Honourable
Baronet had made a proposition differing from the
former in so many important respects that he (Mr.
Cardwell) thought they should have a proper time to
consider that also. Considering the manner in which
the public feeling had been expressed upon the subject,
and the universal interest it had excited, it was due to
that House and to the country that they should have

---
a sufficient time to give it full consideration, and he
trusted the Right Honourable Baronet would accede to
that proposal.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in
answer to the appeal made by the Honourable Gentle-
man the Member for Liverpool, the force of which he
admitted, he was perfectly willing to postpone the fur-
ther consideration of this subject to a future day. There
were considerations which would justify the Honourable
Gentleman in the appeal he made; but he hoped that no
long time would be asked for. It was desirable that the
House should proceed to the consideration of the ques-
tion on as early a day as possible; and he would, there-
fore, propose to adjourn the further discussion until
Friday next.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he rejoiced that the Right
Hon. Gentleman had acceded to the request of the Hon.
Member for Liverpool; but a difficulty still remained
with him (Mr. Gladstone), and which was, perhaps,
shared by some other Hon. Members. He did not
clearly understand from the statement of the Right Hon.
Baronet what was then actually before the House. The
Right Hon. Baronet said, as he understood him, that a
largo amount in the balance sheet of the present year
had to be provided for out of the balance in the Exche-
quer; that the votes for the Kafir war and the navy
excess were to come out of that balance; and it'ter that,
as he understood, there was a deficit of a sum of be-
tween 1,500,000/. and 2,000,000/.; but he did not under-
stand the Right Hon. Baronet clearly to explain to the
House whether it was his intention to meet the defi-
ciency from the remaining balance in the Exchequer, or
by additional taxation. He asked these questions,
because the House would be in a position of difficulty
and disadvantage in the consideration of this question of
the income-tax, unless they had before them the whole
plan of the Government for the finances of the year when
they were called upon to vote.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that with respect to the question whether the Govern-
ment proposed to defray the vote for the Kafir war and
that for naval excess out of the existing balances of the
Exchequer, the amount of that balance on the sth of
January was 8,400,0001., and, supposing the income of
the present quarter to equal the expenditure, there
would be on the sth of April a balance of about
7,000,0001.; he had estimated the difference between the
ordinary income and expenditure for the present year
at 1,500,0001. or 2,000,0001., and had said, that if it
were practicable to defray that sum out of the balances
of the Exchequer, no new taxation would be required ;
and he had observed, that he thought such a course
might be possible without diminishing the balances to
an inconvenient extent, but, at the same time, that it
was a course he was unwilling to adopt, stating his
opinion that it was desirable to maintain a full balance
in the Exchequer. Here he might state what had been
the balances in the Exchequer on the sth of April, dur-
ing some years past, and the House would then see that
when the extraordinary expenses had been defrayed the
balance would not be reduced to such an amount as to
entail inconvenience. At the same time, he did not say
that this was a course he recommended, or one he would
pledge himself to follow. The Right Hon. Gentleman
here read an account of the balances in the Exchequer
as follows:—
In 1839, the balance on the sth April was £497,000
1540 ... ..• ... 1,007,000

1841 ... •.. ••• ... ... 874,000
1842 ... ••• ••• ... ... 857,000
1843 ... ••• ••• ... ... 956.000
1844 ..• ••• ... ... ... 2.235,000
1845 ... ••-, ... ... -.. 6,257,000
1846 ..• ••• ... ... ... 6,507,000
1847 ... ••• ... ... ... 5,459,000
Jan. 5, 1848 ... ... ••• ... ... 8,400 000
As he had before said, if the income for this quarter
equalled the expenditure, the balance on the sth of April
would be about 2 000,0001. ; but supposing a deduction
of 1,500,0001. were made from that sum on account of
the expenditure, then the balance remaining on the sth
of April, 1849, would be about 5,500,0001. But he re
peated, ho reserved to the Government full power to
come down to the house on a subsequent occasion for
the purpose of proposing some other mode of meeting
the deficiency.
Mr. WAKLEY recommended the Government to
withdraw the resolutions altogether. (Hear, hear.)
They were founded on the budget of the Noble Lord,
and that budget was now a bubble that had burst; it was
exploded—gone. For what were the chief propositions
of that budget? First, that the expenditure was to be
maintained; secondly, that there was to be an increase
of it; thirdly, that the income-tax was to be continued
for five years; and, fourthly, that it was to be increased
to 5 per cent. for the first two of those five years. But
it seemed that the Right Hon. Gentleman had been
shuffling over his money bags, and had found that,
after all, he could really pay the current expenditure of
the year.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Right, Hon.
Gentleman had found sufficient means in some odd
corner, and did not require increased taxation. Now
the budget was gone, it was assuredly not wise to
consider further the resolutions the Noble Lord
had proposed. A few years ago he (Mr. Wakley)
had thought he had made the discovery that the
Whigs were made of materials which admitted of
compression, and it appeared that on this occasion,
as heretofore, they had yielded—wisely, as he thought
—to the public voice. If they had not yielded now,
they must at some future day; for the English public
had never been more resolved upon anything than they
were not to allow the impost proposed by the Ministry.
—(Cheers.) He asked the Noble Lord, therefore, to re-
consider the circum,tances of the country, and what was
the condition of the labouring population and taxpaying
classes of the country, and to go over the subject again
and again, and see if it were really not possible to dis-
cover such means of reduction as should give to the
public real and substantial relief.—(Hear, hear.) He
doubted now whether the proposition would be received
to continue the property and income-tax for the next
three years.—(Hear, hear.) That proposition had been
originally submitted to by the House with alacrity and
cheerfulness, because it had been believed that by pro-
posing a certain amount of direct taxation the indus
trious classes might be relieved from a most unjus
species of impost upon the necessaries of life;
but at the same time it had been viewed only
in the light of a temporary expedient.—(Hear, hear.)
It had not been supposed that at the end of
every three years a continuance of the tax would be
demanded, or that at the end of six years it
would be proposed for five years more, and that with
an increase. Tho Noble Lord could not be aware of
the condiiion of the people of this country. He assured
him that a feeling of impatience was rising and spread-
ing over the kingdom under what appeared to him to
be the bad and unjust legislation of that House. There
was growing discontent out of doors which would not be
easily controlled unless the House altered their practice.
The Government had actually told the House of their
encouragement to profligate expenditure; tire Hon. Gen-
tleman (the Secretary to the Admiralty) had lately
taunted them with it, and this very night the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
told them that a great difficulty he had to encounter
WAS to combat the extravagance of that House.—(Hear,
hear.) It was time, then, to apply such a pressure as
would have the effect of most materially reducing the
expenditure. The Right Hon. Gentleman had already,
it appeared, discovered that some reductions might be
made, but was it not strange that the responsibility
of administration should devolve upon Committees of
that House? When had that been done before? —( llear,
hear.) After the budget bad been declared, it was to
be thrown upon two Committees of the House to
decide whether. .or not reduction could be made in the
public departments. This was something new to him
(Mr. Wakley), and he deemed
-it a dangerous course.—
(Hear, hear.) The Government would choose their
own Committee, and then he supposed that that Com
mittee was to gag that House on all that related to the
public expenditure. The cry would then be, " Oh, this
is the recommendation of your own Committee, who
fully and most patiently investigated every branch of the
subject up stairs." He for one would be bound by no
such conditions--(Hear)—and he besought the Noble
Lord to withdraw his resolutions altogether, and to post.
pone the question to a future day, so that the Government
might, upon its own responsibility, reconsider the whole
subject, and come down to the House with a budget to
which they would adhere, for this state of uncertainty,
when a financial scheme was propounded one night and
abandoned another, was most injurious to commerce,
and created great confusion and inconvenience out of
doors.—(Hear, hear.) Before sitting down, he must
shortly refer to what the Noble Lord had said daring the
early part of the evening in reply to his Hon. Friend the
Member for Montrose.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had
said that it was not the intention of the Goeernmentto in-
terfere or meddle in any way with what was going on in
a sister country.—(Great cheering.) He assured the
Noble Lord that whatever the dissatisfaction which had
been roused out of doors; by his budget-and proposal to
increase the income-tax, his declaration of that night
night vreuld be hailed with universal joy.—(Renewed
cheering.) He himself had never heard a declaration
which had produced stronger or more ardent feelings of
gratification in his own. mind, and he was convinced that
1 the satisfaction at what the Noble Lord had said would
be universal.—(Cheers.)
Sir H. VERNEY suggested that important savings
might be effected in certain departments of the military
service. For the last thirty years in some towns in the
country there were militia officers receiving pay, and
there were barrack masters and recruiting officers in
many places discharging duties which might be perfectly
well performed by one officer. But the evil of the sys-
tem was that the army, instead of being consolidated
under one head, was regulated by different departments
—the engineers depending upon one great public officer,
and the line or guards upon another. He begged the
attention of the Government to the reductions which
might be effected in this department. With regard to
the motion of the Hon. Member for Manchester for tax-
ing landed property, all be (Sir H. Verney) desired for
landed proprietors and farmers—for their interests were
identified—was fair play and equal burdens, and he re-
gretted that the Committee moved for some years ago
by the Hon. Gentleman now Secretary to the Admiralty
(Mr. Ward) to inquire into the peculiar burdens affect-
' ing land had not been granted, for if it had the result
would have been to show that the landed interest was
most unjustly taxed.
Mr. T. F. BARING would have postponed what he
had to say to a future occasion, but after the remarks of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury he desired to express
his belief that the conduct of the Government would be
regarded in a very different light to that suggested by
the Hon. Member.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that
the country would be exceedingly grateful to the Go-
vernment for the course they had taken, and that they
had exercised a wise discretion in giving way.—(llear,
hear.) The country had a right, with respect to tax-
ation as to all other subjects, to have an opportunity of
expressing an opinion, and he did not think it was very
fair on the part of those Members of the House who
were supposed to represent popular opinion to be the
first to taunt the Government with giving way to
popular opinion.—(Hear, hear.) lie wished his Right

lion. Friend would answer a question with respect to
these balances in the Exchequer. Taking the c Ise ot
the navy excess, for instance, he b lieved it was per
fectly fair, there having been a greater expenditure this
year, but a large surplus from the balancces of former
years, that the differs nee eheuld be paid coat of
those balances. It appeared that about 2,5e0,00e/. lia I
been added to these b dances, and it would b> hard to
say that in a season of distress the excess should not be
paid out of those balances. He did not see that it was
an improper principle to do so. The Government were
quite right iu taking authority from Parliament, but lie
apprehended that the money was spent and gene, anal
that the only practical cif ct woule be that they would
replace the money in the balances, hut that they would
not diminish those balances one farthing from what they
were at present. With respect t the Kotir war, the same
argument applied—that, in reality, that vote would not
diminish the balances; that the money was spent, and
would bo repaid when the balances were increased.
With respect to the attempts to ridicule the appointment
of a Committee, he must observe that the expenees of
the country had largely increased, and he did not be-
Here that any system of revenue could go on with ex-
penditure thus continually increasing.—(hear.) Ile was
perfectly convinced that it was a Government only which
could make any reduction; a Committee might inves-
tigate and recommend, but it was in the power of the
Government alone to Sf..ct any tangible reselt ; and he
would therefore earnestly impress upon his Right llon.
Friend the importance, before the termination of the
session, of setting diligently to work to see in what
way and in what direction he could reduce.—(dear,
hear.) He would not ask. air he did not wish him to
reduce the establishments of the country ; lie wonl i not
have suggested anything of that kind at the last time
this matter was under discussion ; and the events which
had since occurred did net rendee such a course at all
more advisable.—(Licar, hear.) There was no d eibt,
however, that efficiency might be preserved with some
reductions. He did not meal to say there was any job
binge or that the Government was at all desirous Hof ex-
tending its patronage, but a saving might be wade .vith
better arrangements, and there were many th'ngi which
they might postpone this year, if they did not do
away with them altogether. He knew that his
objections to diminishing the establishments would
not be popular. There was no doubt that the ex-
penditure was very large, and that the increase was
very large ; the increase, in point of fact, this year, in-
cluding the militia, amounting to 1,000,000/. ; but, at the
same time, if his Right lion. Friend, having done his
best to reduce the expenditure, found that he was
1,500,0001. short, and thought it necessary, for the secu
rity of the finances of the country to propose additional
taxation, he (Mr. Baring) would not shrink from giving
his support to the Government.—(dear, hear.) It would
not be prudent, just now, to leave the finances in any
position which would admit of doubt.—(Bear, hear.)
With regard to the income-tax ho would only say that
he did not think they would ever be able to make it a
fair tax —(lcer, hear.) If they taxed income it would
be out of their power to tax equitably ; but that belief
did not deter him from an attempt to make it as equi-
table as possible. lie would not refuse his vote for the
income-tax, but he did hope they would be able to arrive
at some modification of it which would make it a fairer
tax than it was at present. They could not do without
such an impost ; it was ridiculous to suppose they could
otherwise find that accommodation of 5,000,000/. which
they wanted ; but in inainatening this system it was
their duty to endeavour to glee to it e character of the
utmost possible fairness. lie trusted that there would
be some such a modification, and he would then be pre-
' pared, as in 1845, to vote for the cotsahmance of the tax
for three years.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reolicd
to the question which had been asked. Ills impression
was that the sums to which his Right lion. Friend had
referred were not included in the balances, and that, for
instance, the expenses of the Kafir war were met, prac-
tically, by drafts from the Treasury and the Coinunis•
sariat. This money was stated as in the whole expendi
ture up to this time, and the balance of 8,400,0001. would
be diminished by the amount of those sums.
Mr. COBDEN said—Although, Sir, I am very glad
that her Majesty's Ministers have withdrawn the in-
creased income-tax, still, as I represent a numerous
constituency, with which I have corresponded OR this
subject, I think it right to say that I do not think it
possible for any Government to maintain permanently
an income- tax of 3 per cont., or of any other per-
centage, if it should be, as it now is, in the shape of
a tax on precarious income.—(hear, hear.) I believe
that the present proposition has rendered that utterly
impossible for the future. The announcement made
by her Majesty's Ministers has had the effect of
raising this question throughout the country, and of
causing it to be discussed in a way which it before
escaped ; it has thrown the public mind essentially on
the subject of taxation, with a view of devising more
equitable means for the future, and I believe the agita-
tion will end, not merely in the income-tax being altered,
but in a complete change in our fiscal system.—(Hear,
hear.) I heard to-night, for the first time, from my
lion. Friend beside me, the Member for South Lanca-
shire (Mr. Brown), of a new association which has been
formed in Liverpool, for the purpose of enforcing a more
equitable mode of raising the revenue, and it seems to
me that nothing could be more proper or more legiti-
mate than the object of this association. But Ido not
see that we have got to the end of our difficulties at all.
—(Hear, hear.) It does not seem to me that the Right
lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has
come to us with any substitute for this tax. He proposes
in his difficulty to take the money from his reserved-fund,
and, if the difficulty were only temporary, he probably
might do so without any serious inconvenience.
I think, however, I gathered from his statement that we
are in a condition of progressive and increasing difficulty.
—(hear, hear.) I think he told us that already there is
upon this quarter a deficiency of 400,0001., although two
months of the period have not yet passed, as compared
with the corresponding quarter of last year. I appre-
hend, therefore, that it is a growing deficiency with
which we have now to deal. And this brings me to the
point upon which I have declared hefore, that you will
have to reduce your expenditure by some means or other
to meet your income.—(Hear, hear.) I differ altogether
from the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. F. Baring), who
tells us that we must confine our retrenchment to the
non effective services. The Chancellor of the Excheq ier
has told us that the non-effective services amount only
to 3,501),000/., and that the effective services amount to
8,530,000/e and if we are only to retrench in the former
direction, I will not be a party to such a fraud on the
country as to lead them to suppose that there will be any
material reduction.
Mr. BARINGoy
arl explained.es establishments.
lestablishment;ishinn
He had meant to say only
that he was opposed to any reduction which would de-
crease the efficiency of the services.
Mre COBDEN continued—l still maintain that you
must reled
eyour
I dvveoillnhoetrecoalnifiundee
ts.
andl
to some
fmlfatlnoeutche remarks,n appearing t tue very ominous, which
from several gentlemen who spoke on the
subject of what had happened in a neighbouring
country. The Noble Lord at the heat of the
Government, the other night, adduced the example of
Fitt as a justification of the course he was taking. He
mentioned, that in 1792 Pitt was so confident of peace
that he proposed to reduce our armaments; and that,
nevertheless, in 1793, a war broke out. In reply, I said
that that was true, but that France passed through a
social revolution in 1793 and that she had now no so vial
revolution to pass through; that she had now no privi-
leged classes, no large properties in few hands, no
established church, and no gre at mass of property to
level or to tax which was ex-mpted from taxation
before. But I will candidly confess that when I spoke
thus of a social revolution I was i ot prepared for the
political revolution which has since occurred. I was a
not prepared for the insanity of
Minister, nor for the
madness of a Monarch—
(Hear, hear)—whom we lead
always supposed to possess great sagacity and great
prudence. I mean to say, that if France had been Eng-
land, and that if our Ministers and Monarch had first
corrupted our Parliament, and then denied to English-
men the right of a free assembly at a public dinner, we
should hale had our political revolution too.—(Hear,
hear.) Bat, taking_ Franca as we now find it, Ido not
go with that Hon. Gentleman in this House who several
times said that events there had pointed out to us
how necessary it was to be cautious in reducing our
establishments, or in allowing our Exchequer to be-
come impoverished. Why, in ordinary affairs—and I
like to bring these matters down to the common-sense
maxims of life, and you may be sure we shall never
prosper until we do aPPIy such homely maxims to
national Government—(Hear, hear)—if we see a neigh-
bour quarrelling with himself or with his household,
we immediately conclude that he is not likely to be in
a position to come and quarrel with us.—(Laughter.)
In the same way, if you were in a ship-of-war at sea,
and you met an enemy's ship, the crew of which were in
a state of mutiny, you would not begreatly alarmed lest
they should attack em.—(Laughter.) If the Govern-
ment in this country is desirous to avoid
a collision with
France, it is perfectly easy for England. to do so, for I
will venture to say that England is the last country in
the world that France will think of' attacking.—(liear,
hear.) I would add, however, and I make the remark
with regret, I do believe that, unless the people of this
country take this question into their own hands, there is
danger of our being involved in n war with France. I
believe that if it be left to a Foreign Minister, or to the
clubs and coteries of I.OlldOR, and if the Spirit manifested
in this House be to 100 Colthe State
of Franca as an
excuse for expense, the peop of this Country will be led,
step by step, first to alienation, then to a dispute, and
ultimately to a collision, and we may then be involved in
a war, the fruits of which will be similar to those—viz.,
debt and heavy taxation—which resulted from the last
lengthened hostilities. I therefore take this opportunity,
and I do not hesitate to avow
what
opinion, of ealling on
of what is impending if they do
not take the matter into their awn hatless. We are not
going to war with France again to maintain despotic
powers in any part of the warld.—(Cheers.) If France
came to molest us lam afreid I have not arrived at that
point, or that I am so much of a Q.ialter, as to say that
I would not resist—(Laughter)—but I say, unless
France molests us, and I speak the predominant opinion
of England, we must leave France idone.—(Cheers ) I
would, to conclude my remarks, only, venture to suggest
to the Government, that as untillriday is not a very
long time to take the opinion of the country on this
amended income-tax, and as me' Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for Manchester (Mr. Bright) hag a notice of motion
for the equalization of the probate and legacy duties, and
my Hon. Friend (the 'Member for Coventry) another
motion for securing a distinction in the tax upon fixed
and upon varying income, I hope a wee k at least
will be granted us for the consideration of the propo-
sition.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL.—The Hon. Gentleman opposite
(Mr. Cardwell) asked if this debate should be adjourned
and not proceeded with this evening. My Right lion.
Friend immediately acquiesced in the suggestion ; but
I must say that it could be fairer if the House did one
of two things—;either to adjourn the proposition and not

debate it, or to debate it and allow th-' Government to '
c.,me to some positive conclusion.—(Loud cries of "Hear.")
I do not think it is vita fair to spend the whole evening
in attaching the measures of the Government and at the
same time to say, " We wish to adjourn the debate to
i;riday."—(llear, hear.) I should hardly feel called
:pen to say a word more, after the observations I made
ia an early part of the evening in reply to the Hon.
Aletnber for Montroie, were it not for what has just
cAllen from the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the
West Riding. That Honourable Gentleman, after
what I remarked to-night—and I believe he must
admit that his prophecy was not a very successful
one—(Laughter)—has tried to excite a suspicion,
and to induce those in this House, and perhaps
Close out of (hors, to think that I was not sincere in the
declaration I made, and that when I intimated we did
not moan to interfere with any disposal of her own insti-
tutions which France might choose to make, I still meant
we were to be led by some "coteries and clubs" to go to
war with that nation, because she had adopted some
paricular form of government. Now, I can only
reiterate what I said before, that it is not the intention of
the Gove. nment to interfere, in any way whatever, with
the settlement France may think propsr to make with
respect to her own Government.—(Cheers.) Our only
interest in that settlement is the interest of neighbours
and friends, and all we wish is that the institutions
France may adopt shall tend as much as possible to her
Own prosperity.—(Cheers.) I may, perhaps, be per-
mitted to add that, of course, I do nut believe England
would reuse to perform any of those sacred duties of
hospitality which she has performed at all times to the
san•quts • •hed—(Cheers)--whoever they were, whether of
extreme Royalist opinions, of moderate opinions, or of
.ottreme liberal opinions. Those duties of hospitality
have made this country the asylum for the unfortunate ;
and I, for one, will never consent that we should neglect

them.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. I)ISRAELi said he was not one to carry on a
geerille warfare with the Government after the post-
ponement which had been conceded by the Right lion.
13 tronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He must,
however, observe that the nation lived in an age of
revolution, and that while on the other side of the
Channel a leading member of the senate had declared
his adhesion to the regency, and yet in the same day
had declared in favour of a republic; they had in those
days a budget promulgated by one official—a second
was intimated from another source, and probably a
third might be submitted to the consideration of' the
Legislature. Seven years ago there had been a deficit
of 2,500,000/. in the revenue, but since that time, though
abundant sources of revenue had been realised, a simi-
lar deficit existed. One of the items was that 600,0001.
,eas required in the navy estimates for the packet ser-
vice. Now be (Mr. Disraeli) wanted to know what was
the clear annual revenue derived from the Post- office
deperteient. It was said to amount to 900,0001.. but still
it was ut.explained. Indeed, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer acknowledged that there was a great and inde-
fensible expenditure of the revenue of the nation, and
he had thrown the whole odium of that lavish expendi-
ture upon the Commons House of Parliament, instead
of upon the Government of which he was a member.
The Right Hon. Gentleman who filled the chair of the
House ought to vindicate the assembly against such an
aspersion.—(llear, hear.) But the Hon. Member for
the West Riding of Yorkshire had announced a new
league—% new combination to obtain a reform of the
fiscal regulations of the country. This was a very
alarming announcement, especially when it was re-
membered what the former confederation of which the
Hon. Member was the head had accomplished. It
could not be forgotten that ho had changed the minds
and intentions of the then Ministry, and he (Mr. Dis-
reel!) could not but think that there was much mischief
in the shell with which the country was now threatened.
And he could trot help believing that when the electors
of the West Riding were appealed to by the Hon.
Member who now urged the reform of fiscal regulations
they would pause to inquire into the effects of their
''ollowing the previous counsel and advice of the
Honourable Gentleman on the subject of commercial
re form. Would not this association lead to a fruit-
lees, barren, and uprofitable agitation ? (Hear,
hear.) But when the Legislature was called upon
to raise two or three miserable millions of deficiency, let
them remember the evidence given before the Import
Duties Committee, by one who was the foundation of
modern legislation, and who had induced one of their
ablest statesmen to take his base as his rule—he alluded
to the evidence of the Hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr.
Macgregor), who before that Committee had declared
that if the corn and provision laws were repealed there
would be an increase of revenue of more than
100,000,000/. This statement would be found at page
68 of the voluminous blue book. And yet, with this
promise, there was a deficit of 2,500,0001. now, as before,
to be provided for. When the lion. Member for the
West Riding declared that he was prepared again to
raise the standard of agitation, he wished to know whe-
ther they were to fall without a struggle, and who would
be the enemy to be encountered. The Hon. Member
stood as the supporter of a bankrupt Exchequer, aid has
appealed to a revolutionary nation. Free trade had
proved to be a great exaggeration. These were humili-
ating circumstances to bear in mind, and ho deeply de-
plored such a course of proceeding. With regard to the
proposed income-tax, it was a war tax, and ought to be
touched very delicately by the Commons house of Par-
liament.
Me. MACGREGOR denied that he had been the
author of the measures of the Right lion. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth, to whom belonged the credit
of the commercial reforms which had been carried out.
With regard to his (Mr. Macgregor's) evidence before
the Import Duties Committee, there was not one word
which he wished to blot out.
Mr. BRIGHT said ho felt bound to congratulate the
Government on the change in their financial policy. It
was a very wholesome thing that tho Government did
not set themselves in opposition to so strong an expres-
sion of the public feeling as had been manifested since
Friday week —(llear, hear.) Let them bear in mind
that the country had differed with them very materially
on two points,—as to the increase of the tax, and as to the
omission of any discrimination in the way in which it was
levied. lie hoped that on Friday the Government would
he prepare./ to make some such discrimination. He be-
lieved there was a great disposition in the country to sub •
mit to a considerable portion of the taxes being raised
directly; they should not only be direct, but also equal
and just. Every one admitte i that the income-tax, as
heretofore levied, had not been equal and just ; and
hence the dissatisfaction that was felt with it. The
/louse must have been amused at seeing a county Mem-
tel., the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr.
Disraeli) come forward and reiterate sophiems with
respect to revenue and taxation such as the weavers of
Lancashire and Yorkshire would be ashamed to utter.
—(Hear.) There was a time when that Hon. Member
and his party might have sat on the Ministerial benches,
if they had chosen ; what would they have done in the
last two years ? Would they have suspended the corn-
law or not ? If they had suspended it, would they have
imposed the duties again before the Ist of March next ?
—(Hear. hear.) Why, the Noble Lord the Member for
Lynn had told the present Government that they had
not relaxed the restrictions soon enough, and he actually
blamed them for not sending to foreign countries and
buying large stores so as to bring in more corn than had
been brought in. The effect of the suspension had been
an import of 16 millions of quarters of grain in 16
months. Would the Hon. Member for Buckingham-
shire have kept out that quantity of grain, and thereby
causedi. me il h?is countrymen to be now
uM. DISRAELI—It would have come in.
sginmth::liiorngsra o
graves
Mr. BRIGHT—Then the result would have been
the same as now. Did the Honourable Member
then complain that it had not come in in the right
month or week, or in the right ships? The lion.
Members opposite had been clearly mistaken in their
enormous estimate of the losses the agricultural body
would eustain.—(tiear, hear.) It was notorious that
for the last eighteen months the most prosperous part of
the community had been the cultivators and possessors
of land. It had been alleged that all the gold would
leave the country and would go to build manufactories
abroad. But the country which had taken the largest
portion of our gold, the United States, had taken twice
or thrice the quantity of our manufactures that it did be-
fore. Thus all the prophecies of lion. Gentlemen opposite
had proved utterly unsubstantial. Neither the league
nor the lion. Member for Tamworth had assumed to
regulate the seasons ; but the recent famine had set the
seal to the condemnation of the protectionist policy. For
any one to stand up now and defend the corn laws was
the greatest assurance he had ever known.—(Cheers.)
He did not believe that a return to the old policy would
ever be demanded, even by the Buckinghamshire far-
mers—certainly not by the weavers of Yorkshire and
Lancashire.—(Bear, hear.) Such a proposal would raise
a greater storm of indignation than the increase of the
income-tax or anything else.—(Cheers.) He should
postpone his motion referring to the probate and legacy
duties until the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the
Exchequer should again propose an addition to the
taxation of the country. If the probate and legacy
duties were looked into they would be found to involve
the grossest injustice ; and though the people might not
object to pay the necessary expenses of the Govern-
ment, the crying injustice with which the taxes had been
levied for many years past demanded a speedy remedy.
Mr. BANKES dented that the Hon. Member for
Manchester bad correctly represented the prophecies of
the Protectionists. They had said that the first parties
to complain of the free-trade delusions would be the
operatives and manufacturers themselves. lied not the
prophecy been fulfilled?--(Hear, hear.) He doubted
that the prosperity of the agriculturists was so great as
that Hon. Member had alleged; for they, in common
with other classes, had expressed alarm at the threatened
increase of the income-tax. It would be well for the
lion. Member for Glasgow to remember, if examined
before a Select Committee in futare, that it was an ex-
tremely serious, matter to give evidence on such subjeuence cts,
whereby the acts of the Legislature might be infld.
Now that the budget was to be re-modelled, and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had reserved to himself the
right of proposing additional taxes if necessary, let the
douse reserve to itself the right of not voting the sup-
plies until they knew what those taxes were. lie should
take the opportunity of asking the Right Hon. Gentle-
man on Friday night what those additional taxes would
be, and he hoped the answer would be ready; for
hitherto all their discussion had been fruitless. The
app dntment of the Committee was a most unha re-
ppy
cedent; it shifted the responsibility from Ministers; and
p
before he served on such Committee he should wish to
know what the Ministerial plans really were.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR was happy to hear that public
opinion had operated on the Ministry; but in this shift-
ing and changing, they had split on the old rock of an
empty exchequer. More than once the country had seen
the Whigs come into office with •it full exchequer, and
leave it with an empty one.—(Hear, hear.) They were
looking to a permanent tax to meet an incidental outlay;
for all the causes assigned for the increased taxation had
been incidental ones. lie did not believe the Govern-

ment would have been able to carry the increased income
tax. The H moerible Gentleman entered into the (let Ids
of some of the items in the budget, and contended that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had over-estimated
the charge for the national debt. With a starving
population in Ireland, they ought not to listen to any
increase of taxation. The Honourable Member for
\lauehester had told the Route that the United
states had (I,W:ded their demand for our manufac-
tures; but he should like to know how much the
working people had been benefited by that. Re
believed that it free trade in corn had Iva been passed,
wheat would never have reached eighty shillings a
quarter; it would have come in just as fast, being always
attracted to the best and richest market. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer could not suppose that he would
he abbe to came down to the House again and demand
additional taxes. It seemed the income-tax was to be
extended to Ireland. He did not pity the Irish landlords
in the least, who had been so ready to dip their hands
into the purse of England.—(Laughter.) After alluding
to his " settlements" in Gloucestershire and Worcester-
shie, the Hon. Gentleman recommended the Chancellor
of the Exchequer to buy up the four millions of Long
Annuities terminating in 1859-60, now selling at eight
years' purchase, and alleged that a saving of upwards of
a million might be effucted. He regretted that they
had not more able men on the Treasury benches to look
into these things. We lived in new times, and required
new men to govern us. While all other sciences were
advancing, was the science of legislation to stand still ?
Colonel suvraoßP was glad the Ministers had
harked back," and he would recommend them to be
careful how they put to sea without a compass.—
(Laughter.) But he rose merely for the purpose of
denying the assertion of his Right Ilon. Relative—
(Laughter) —that the prepesition of the Right lion.
Gentleman the Member for Tamworth for the con-

tinuance of the income-tax had been universally as
rented to by the House. He had given it every opposi.

Mr. MUNTZ advised her Majesty's Government no
to be led away by the statement of the Right Hon Gen-
tleman the Member for Portsmouth, that the limitation
of the income-tax to 3 per cent. would be received with
general satisfaction by the country. He believed that
the country was decidedly opposed to the income tax of
3 per cent.—(Hear, hear.) The Government were not
safe when they proposed the 5 per cent. tax, and he was
not sure that they were quite safe now. There was a
strong feeling against the tax, not because it was one on
property, but because it was one on income, and because
it was unjust, unequal, and inquisitorial. He did not
believe the present Government, or any other Govern-
ment, would he able to perpeteate this tax.—(llear,
hear.) He had strongly opposed the continuance of
this tax in 1845. Ho very much doubted that trade and
commerce would so revive as to justify the expectations
of the Right Honourable Gentleman as to an increase
of revenue. lie had no right to expect any such
increase, because the export trade was daily becoming
less. The inference drawn from the year 1845-6 was
not founded on sound ground, becaese the trade of those
years was a consignment trade of a particular charac-
ter, and a large portion of it was not paid for, and
never would be paid for. With respect to payments
out of the balances, what was to be done if there
were more demands than the Right Hon. Gentleman
contemplated ? The Bank would have to make up
the deficiency, or the dividends could not be paid.
Coming events were casting their shadows before, and
circumstances would become worse if a great change
were not made.
Mr. MITCHELL did not think the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was justified in assuming that trade and com-
merce would so revive as to make up the deficiency of
the revenue. It was undeniable that the events in
France would seriously affect the commerce of this
country. There was a deficiency which must be pro
vided for, but he thought it duo to the country that
some Member of the Government should state on Fri-
pay next how it was to be made up—whether by a
legacy duty on real property, or by taxes on some
branches of industry. He hoped they were not going
to be satisfied with a continued deficiency which would
bring the country into that state approaching to bank-
ruptcy which existed in 1841.
Mr. lIORSMAN signified his intention of moving the
resolution on the paper in his name when the House
went into Committee.
Lord D. STUART said it was the settled determination
of the constituency which he represented not to submit
to the income-tax. He did not think the proposal of the
Government that night would remove their dislike to it,
because their objection was not so muoh to the amount
as to the injustice and inequality inherent in the tax,
and to its inquisitorial nature. It was said that those
who opposed the tax ought to propose a substitute for it.
He denied that such was the duty of the representatives,
that was the duty of the Government; but he thought
that it would not be impossible to find some means of
taxation in the 26,000,000/. which they had reduced of
late years.
Sir R. INGLIS would ask the Noble Lord who had
just spoken whether he would have the hardihood to go
before his constituents and propose to reimpose upon
them any ono of those taxes which had been remitted?
A tax of 7,000,0001. had been remitted on barley.
Would any of the Members representing county con
etituencias propose to re-impose that tax? Ile did not
think the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln was
prepared to name a single source of taxation, if the
income-tax was rejected.
Colonel SIBTIIORP—I am.—(Laughter.)
Sir R. INGLIS congratulated the Right Hon. Gen
Ileum the Chancellor of the Exchequer on finding one
Member who was ready to propose a substitute. Ile
would suggest to the Government the plan adopted by
France and Belgium, of putting a stamp duty on foreign
bills of exchange, and also on gas. Since the income •
tax had first been proposed he had always held the view
that it was most desirable to raise as large an income as
possible upon a graduated scale, exempting altogether
from taxation sums below the minimum amount, from
which the tax was to be paid. An arrangement of this kind
would be a great blessing to clerks and others, and espe-
cially to those for whom he might be supposed to feel
more particularly interested—the poorer parochial clergy
of the country.
Mr. BLACKSTONE said, when the income-tax was
first proposed he had prophesied it would be a permanent
tax, and had opposed it accordingly.
Mr. SEELY thought it would be desirable7the House
should know, before they went further, what would be
the new taxation proposed, and what would be the de-
ficiency in case the present budget were adopted. It
seemed to him, from the revenue tables, that if the
budget were adopted we should have, in 1849, some-
where about six millions additional debt. lie believed
this to be so ; but there was some difficulty in making
out very clearly how the matter stood, in consequence of
the way in which the public accounts were presented, to
obviate which difficulty in future he would suggest the
great desirability of having, on a certain day in every
year, a statement of the assets and liabilities of the
nation laid before them in a succinct form.—(Hear.)
The Committee was then postponed until Friday next.
SLAVE TRADE COMMITTEE.
Mr. HUTT moved that Mr. B. Baring be added to the
Select Committee on the Slave Trade.
Mr. lIINDLEY, by way of amendment, proposed that
Sir E. Buxton be added to the committee.
'Die question having been put,
Mr. Hu-TT complained of the attempt made to draw a
companion between any t wo!Hon. Members of the House,
and of being driven to defend the merits of the Hon.
Member he proposed. With respect to Sir E. Buxton,
he had asked that llon. Baronet to serve on the Com-
mittee, and had found him in a state of indecision as to
whether he would serve or not.
Sir E BUN. Pt IN denied that he had been in any such I
unenviable condition as that described. He had felt a
great anxiety to be on the Committee, and had stated
that he would attend as much as he could.
Lord HOTHAM asked why both Hon. Gentlemen
should not be on the Committee ?—(Hear.)
Mr. HUTT said the Committee had originally been
limited to fifteen.
Sir R. H. INGLIS saw no reason why the number
should not be increased. The very name of the lion.
Member for Essex was suffieient to render it obviously
desirable that he should be appointed to servo.
Captain PECIIELL complained that no naval officer
was placed on the Committee, and urged the House to
assist him iu adding to it the Noble Lord the Member
for South Staffordshire.
Sir G. GREY said it would be contrary to the rules
of the House to increase the number beyond fifteen.
He suggested that in the event of any Member not beint,
able to attend hereafter, then Sir E. Buxton should being
added.
Mr. lIINDLEY consented to accept this arrange-
ment; and the amendment being withdrawn, the original
motion was agreed to.
Captain PECHELL then desired to add the name of
Lord Ingestre to the Committee, but
The SPEAKER informed him that he could not do
so, the Committee having been appointed.
NEW war r.
On the motion of Mr. TUFNELL, a new writ was
ordered to bo issued for the election of a Member for the
borough of Kinsale, in the room of Mr. Guinness,
The House adjourned at Eleven o'clock.

REMINISCENCES OF TALLETRAND.—Among the
distinguished female characters who figure in this inte-
resting work, we observe, as particularly prominent,
Madame Adelaide, Mario Antoinette, Maria Theresa,
the Princess Talleyrand, Madame de Stael, Madame
Necker, the Duchess D'Orleans, Madame do Krudener,
the Princess de Guimene ~ the Countess do la Motte,
Madame du Barri, Madame du Deffand, the Queen of
Etruria, Madame Geoffrin, &c. &c. Whatever degree
of respect may be entertained for Prince Talleyrand, it
has always been difficult to withstand the attraction of
his incomparable wit, whilst his manners recalled the
flowing courtesy of the French nobility in their best
times. These qualities were never, perhaps, exhibited
to greater advantage than on the present occasion, and
particularly in the portraitures above alluded to.
GRATUITOUS,-I:NYENTY-COLUMN SUPPLEMENT TO
THE " OBSERVER" OF SUNDAY, MARCH s.—ln order
to give the most complete particulars of the French
affairs consecutively with the Observer of Feb. 27.
(which gave thirteen folio columns of Paris News) a
Gratis Supplement will be published next Sunday, of
twenty folio columns. Price of the Observer and Sup
plement, Sixpence. The Observer' of Feb. 27, has Leo)
reprinted, and copies can be had at the office,
Strand.
The Festival of the Royal Asylum of the St. Ann's
Society, on Thursday next, under the presidency of his
Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, will be
honoured by the presence of his Royal Highness the
Conde de Montomolin.
We remark that the Testimonial to Mr. Charles
Nash, for his successful prosecution of the lii.gage rob-
beries, and resistance to the gangs, is drawing to a close.
We think that every director's name at least ought to
be found amongst its subscribers.