The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-29 00:00:00

waggestion offered by his Hon. Friend (Mr. a !•h rtcn ) near
him. lithe resolution before the Hou-e were carried effect,in_
it must result in complete bitterness on the part of the people
of Ireland towards the House.
Mr. BROTHETON had already seconded the amendment.
He thought that it was very often tee case that the, less a man
was restricted the more stringently he considered himself to
be bound. He had a foslish idea, that if it was left to Hon.
Members unfettered to perform their duties, that
filoma-uweoe ofuld
very seldom be found shrinking from the Pe
them. He wouet trust entirely to their sense ofr honour and
duty. If any Member should be found refractory, he would
rather leave him to answer for his conduct to his constituents
than punish him by a rule of the House for his neglect. The
Hon. Member for Limerick perhaps had a different view in
persisting in his contumacy—he wanted the House to send him
to the Tower, so that the sympathies of the people might he
raised, but he (Mr. Brotherton) did not wish to make a martyr
of him ; therefore he thought the suggestion of his Hon. Friend
ahouid be adopted.
Mr. MORRIS O'CONNELL thought that nothing more
than a mistaken notion of his duty was attributable to his Hon.
Friend. the Member for Limerick. If he had wished to evade the duties of the House, he might have gone to Ireland, and ,
remained there secure from any interruption.
Sir G. GREY was of opinion that no other course was
open to the House than the adoption of the resolution which
had been originally submitted. He did not see how they I
could refuse to pass theerieinal proposition. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Limerick had had sufficuint time to reflect lapin the
consequences of his retinal to serve upon Committees. The
Hon. Member had refused to obey toe order of the Houses
and it was very evident he must be held as in contempt of the
House. He must say. therefore, that lie saw no reason to alter
the resolution before the House.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought that it was unnecessary for the
House to come to this resolution, for his Hon. Friend,no notice
Member for Limerick, ivies certain') not aware of
tarnaryee that
being sent to him; to say the least, it seemedesd. •
the measure should. ite so hastily
Sir R. PEEL could not helpameixhparresshl'y
Gseinntleman could have
rleiisss astonishment
and regret at hearing that any
Supposed that in the course 11°f
n'this debate any party
could have come to any decision oon,htihoer‘subject, in consequence
like personal feeling,
of having been actuated
.by n
Fie could not help expressing anything like
the point, and it
was oncoentorfarvyery deep regret, for not ing, he believed,. was
to the sentiments entertained by the whole of
rtrereMembers of that House than that of hostility to the Irish
Members. It should he remembered that this was not the
first time that a -Member of the House had been placed in this
position. During the session of last year the Hon. Member
for Winchester (Mr. B. Escott) had been appointed to serve
on two Committees, and was afterwards appointed Member of
a third. He had conceived that his attendance on the first two
ought to exonerate him from any duty in the third, and he
had accordingly declined to attend. The Select Committee
made a representation of the circumstance to the House, and •
he was ordered to attend. That Hen. Gentleman made his
appeal to the House, and stated the facts, and of his utter in-
ability '
ity to do duty in three places at the same time •
but the
House overruled his objection, and he was obliged to console
htmcelf by doing his duty as well as he could, for the order of
the House Was made that 1 e should attend upon all
the Censmittees.—( Hear, hear.) He might also refer to a
circumstance which eceurred in the year 1830, when a similar
instance had happened. The Hon. Member in that case had
not attended his Committee. The report was made—he stated
his reasons, and the House admitted that those reasons were
valid, and excused him. Why does the Hon. Gentleman then
presume that he should not be equally amenable to the rules of
the House as any o her individual who is willing to submit to
its orders? Here there wee no endeavour to palliate his con-
duct; and instead or endeavouring to excuse himself, he had re-
ferred to his correspondence, and stated that he had an ob-
jection to serve, on a ground of public principle, and gave no
other reason than a vague statement of feeling. Ile had in-
deed said that he would attend neon no other Committees than
those which might sit upon the affairs of Ireland. What other
course then could the Committee of Selection pursue than that
of reporting his conduct to the House ; and what other course
coulse the House pursue than that of affirming the resolution
that had now been submitted to them? The amend-
ment which had been moved on this resolution by the
_Honourable and Learned Member for the county of Cork
went to neither more nor less than doing away with the power
of the House to compel Members to attend to these Com-
mittees, arid provided that every Member should be excused
from attendance by assigning a special reason. Why he
believed, if such were the case, the Hon. Member would very
soon find that every idle men would speedily discover abundance
of special reasons for his absence. The Hon. Mem er seemed
to think that Committees form no part of the House, and that
compulsory attendance on teem was beyond its control. 1'
such a doctrine were to prevail, most grievous evils would
speed ily flow both to the House and to the country, and if this
rmestion were to be decided against the resolution, the character
of the House roust speedily suffer. It hail always been hit
polity to elevate the character of that branch of the Leeis-
iature, which more particularly emanated from, and was more
immediately- connected with the people, and upon which the
eyes
would of the people Were continuaily fixed. If Hon. Members
not give their attendance on these Committees, there
11111 st be a newer to compel them to do so, or they might on
similar grounds exempt themselves from attendance on the
o
u...e itself ; and not only the business of the Committees, but
also the public business of the House would, even under a call,
become only voluntary, and any Members who chose would be
eixoneraie t from the moat important legislative functions. For
his own part, he conceived that the Committees constituted'
part of the House. The Hon. Member asked Whether there
was any law to compel the attendance of the Members, and
from whence they derived their power? He might in the
interim say, and as a sufficient answer to the inquiry, that if
they could not compel attendance upon the Committees, neither
could they compel attendanc, upon the most important business
of the country, and they would lose every ability to ensure the
performance of those duties for which the country had sent them
there. But, with respect to the power, he could tell him that they
derived the power from that source of all power in which the
institutions and the laws of the country had their origin, and
from which they derived their authority—in the interests of all
classes of that community from whom all power emanated.
Toe Hon. Gentleman had stated that there was no clause in the
Act of Union which gave them the power to compel the at-
tendance of the Irish Members. He was right; nor was there
any statute law needed to give them the authority. The
right was inherent in the c institution of that House, and pre-
viously existed in the institutions and the necessities out of
which it arose long before the House itself was formed. If
such a plea were to be set up, they ought, in his opinion, to
give compensation to all those Members from North Britain
who had served in Committees since the Scottish Union, for
thcre was no clause in the Act of Union which ex-
pressly detailed the rights and duties of those
'Mem-
bers, and the great men of that period had never
thought it necessary to obtain a sanction of their rights or any
other grants or privileges for the Scottish Members when they
became Members of the United Parliament. If they were to
assert to the statement of the Hon. Member, they must adopt
some principle of action equivalent to that which they were
now employing, and he therefore saw no alternative between
affirming the resolution and taking a line of conduct which
would be destructive of the power of the House. They did
not rely upon the statute of Henry VIII., to which the Hon.
:Member had alluded, but they relied upon the power which
had been existing in the House throughoUt the whole series of
its proceedings—on that source from which all power arose,
the power which enabled to make laws ; and it was on these ,
grounds that he hoped that they should come to the conclusion '
which he conceived to be inevitable. He was sure that the
Haase were quite aware of the consequences that would ensue
if they were to refrain from establishing their authority in this
instance, which all parties allowed to belong to the House of
Commons in order to obtain its right., but the exercise of
which the Hon. Member challenged in the most open manner.
It was evident how much importance the Members attached to
this power, and he trusted, therefore, that the House of Com-
mons would arlirm the resolution.—( Cheers.)
Mr. H. GRATTAN presumed that this was only a question
of privilege, and he thought it was inadvisable to bring it on
at the present time. There was no ground in law. It was
soot necessary to express it ; and if the House went to a division
he should feel it his daty to oppose the resolution.
Mr. C. POW ELL regretted to see the spirit of hostility in
which the Government seemed inclined to act with regard to
his Hon. Friend the Member for Limerick.—( No, no.) He
thought they had better have adopted the suggestions of his
Hon. Friend the Member for the city of Cork, and was sorry
that the, Attorney-General had not adopted the same strain as
that in which he had proposed it, instead of the hostile tone
which he had used.—( Cries of " Oh, oh.") Certainly the
speeches of the Hon. Attorney-General, and of the Hon. Baro-
net the Prime Minister, had evidenced that hostility. He
conceived there was a difference between Irish and English
.Memiters.
Sir R. PEEL—No, ne.
Mr. CHARLES PO WELL—There might have been some
grounds for such a motion, if it had been merely an
English case.—(" No, no.") But if the House had the power
to compel the attendance of any Member in this manlier, they
might compel him to do anything. For instance, supposing the
case of any gentleman, e ho for :20 years had entertained part i-
eular opinions, and who came into the House five years ego a
complete monopolist, and in the exercise of his judgment in the
course of three years became converted into a thorough free-
trader, they alight order him to enter the House with his coat
turned.—(Great
i: laughter. ) He hoped the order woull not , foe it it did, he conceived that they would exhibit a very
Yro c_vgup•—( Renewed
.laughter.) He trusted that the
e rn merit would not persevere, for it they did, he must op-
'Pose the ...solution.
:NI, HUME could not help rising to reprobate the opinion
that there was any differer,:ceibteitiween Irish and English Mem-
bers. If the former ere
privileges as the latter,
they were equally liable iYeePerwtnearsmainth% duties of their office.
He thought this was not the
were to show. to the people of
Ireland that their Members
ebeeteinne.itilp
about
satutr.
He would not take notice of what 111)3.7.'
coats, and all that nonsense, but he would ask what were those Members in who entered the House afterua situation
Reform Bill ? There was no law passed to put them in pos-
session of the privileges of the other Members of the House,
nor was it necessary to pass any such law for the Irish Mem-
bees. He regretted that the last speaker had not followed the
example of the manly speech of the Hon. Member for Kil-
kenny (Mr. John O'Connell), who, although he entertained
the same opinions as the Hon. Member for Limerick, had de-
ferred his own feelings to his higher sense of the claims of his
*Tuohy, and did his duty in Committee. He thought that the
Right Rio. Baronet at the head of the Government had
stated the ease very fairly, anti agreed with him that. there was
no other course to pursue ; for if they allowed this plea it must
put an end to all businem. With what face could the Irish
Members avail themselves of the privileges of this
House, and then, ?Jeer refusing to fulfil their duty,
stand up to demand the rights of their country. The best
possible way to defend those rights was to fulfil their duty in
that House, and not after enjoying the privileges, refuse to un-
dergo the labour by which they were accompanied. Those
privileges were equally enjoyed by English, Irish, and Scotch
Members, and without the power to compel the attendance of 1
the Members, the hohness of the country must be stopped.
He ?sad a Netter opinion of the feeling of the Irish people than 1
the Hort. Member for Limerick—(Cheers)—for he believed
hat the Irish people would say—of' what use was it their having
Members in the House of Commons, if they did not sup port
heir rights, and how could they do so without fulfilling their
duty ?—for they had equtl duties to luifil with the English
Members. He certainly should affirm the resolution, and hoped
the House would adopt it.
Cries of " Divide;divide;" but
Mr. RWART rose to ask a question, upon which he was
being exceedingly anxiens' and that was—in the event of the motion
be zee;lto, whetherther the Hon. Member for Limerick would
tl El at once into the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms
after being convicted of c
for Kendal and Salford ontempt, or whether, as the Members
his attendance moon that thought,vi he ought to be allowed to renew
Sir T. WILDE had the highest respect for the Honourable
Member for Cork, but he deeplygdiscussio ratretlti'leodn the opinions which
in the course of this
. Member had ex-
the
on the motion before the House, and on the conduct of
the Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien
fectly agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, that i1W2.115 rleepceer‘-
aary to uphold the rights of that House, and thought they had
been moderately and fairly stated. He regretted, therefore,
the delusion order which the Hon. Member appeared to have
acted; he trusted he would excuse himself,
•but he was bound
to say that, on the present occasion, both his Parliamentary
and his common law were decidedly beet. The House were
fully aware of the grounds on which this resolution was based.
It was well known that Parliamentary law was a part of the
law of the land, and he thought this law had been fairly stated