The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-26 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JULY 25.

The House resumed at half past five o'clock.
Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice that he would ask a
question to-morrow relative to the conduct of a Noble
Lord at the W.ra•ick election.
. ..

Mr. O'CONNELL also inquired what progress bad been
made in the report upon the Ecclesiastical Courts ?

Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he bad no doubt the
report would soon be before the House.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

Mr. O'CONNELL rose to call the attentio❑ of the
House to a matter which he considered of very great im-
portance—the manner in which the proceedings of that
House were reported in the public priots.
Colonel PERCEVAL rose to order, and moved that
strangers should withdraw.

The gallery, however, was not cleared.
Colonel PERCEVAL, as soon as the disturbance created
by the motion for the removal of strangers had subsided,
was understood to suggest to Mr. O'Connell the propriety
of withdrawing his motion.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, as the standing orders
of the House did not recognise any reports of their pro-
ceedings, he thought the Hon. and Learned Member must
be out of order in discussing such a subject.
The SPEAKER understood the object of the Hon. and
Learned Member's motion to be to enforce the standing
orders of the House, in consequence of the inaccuracy of
the reports of their proceedings. Now, if by sufferance
such reports were published, it was competent for any
Hon. Member to move the standing order for the exclu-
sion of strangers on that or any other ground which he
might think fit.

11,1 r. O'CONNELL moved that the proprietor of the
Morning Chronicle should to-morrow be called to
the bar of the House to answer for a breach of
the privileges of the House in publishing reports
of the debates. He meant afterward: to move that the
proprietors of the Times, Morning Herald, and Morning
Post Newspapers, should likewise be called to the bar
for a similar breach. But he gave the priority to the
Morning Chronicle, on account of the article which ap-
peared that day, excusing the omissions of a report of a
speech of his (Mr. O'Connell's). The article in question
exhibited evidences of shrinking; but he found that the
very same day a speech of his (Mr. O'Connell's) was
treated in the same manner. He had ascribed the inferi-
ority of the reports to incapacity as the most charitable
view of the subject, and had attributed that incapacity to
the falling off in the wages of the reporters ; but he found

(PRICE ID.)

th it was not the case. He was, therefore, compelled to
suppose that there were some other motives. He did not
complain of the misreporting of his own speech in parti•
calm., for be b. lieved that Hon. Members had in general
been very imparti illy misreported. The Honourable
Member then proceeded to state that he had procured from
the stamp-office a list of the Journal Proprietary of the
Metropolis, and that he should wage war with them all
till he defeated them—that he would move day by day for
their appearance at the bar of the House far I.l•each of
privilege. He alluded to the Morning Chronicle, as part
proprieted by an lion. Member of the House, whom he
would not then ramie. He alributed the defec•s he im-
puted in the reports of Parliamentary speeches to the de-
teriorated character of the reporters. He then denounced
the monopoly of the press, and said that a capital of
20,000/. was insufficient to originate a new morning
paper. The chi f burden of the Hon. Member's com-
plaints was that of his own speeches—those he deemed
the best were often not reported at all. Of all the morn-
ing papers, the Morning Post was this one in which
he had observed the greatest impartiality—a circum-
stance which probably arose from the reporters being gene-
rally Scotchmen. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
then laid on the table of the House copies of the Morning
Chronicle and Times of yesterday, with the legal docu-
ments from the stamp-office, which served to show the
proprietorship of these journals ; and moved that Mr. W.
I. Clement he called to the bar of the House fur publish-
ing certain reports, purporting to be accounts of their
proceedings.

Mr. O'DWYER seconded the motion. He had him-
self, by his literary labour, been greatly assisted in his
progress to the station of independence in which he was at
present placed ; but he could not allow that having been
engaged in putting down despotism of other kinds, the
House should submit to the spurious despotism which it
was now attempted to exercise over them. The fats
of Members of that House ought not to depend
upon the caprice or corruption of reporters. The Hon.
Gentleman then read an extract from a report in a morn-
ing paper, in which the Hon. and Learned Member fot
the University of Oxford (than whom no man practised
more unvarying courtesy) was made to speak of the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin and " his tail." This
could not be a mistake, but was a wilful falsehood. If it
were meant by the writer that he (Mr. O'Dwyer) was a
joint of that tail, his answer was, that he had been returned
to Parliament independently, by a free constituency. He
heartily approved of his Hon. and L-arned Friend's mo-
tion, because it would bring the question to a short issue.
The SPEAKER the❑ put the question, that Mr. Ce-
ment be ordered to attend at the bar of the Horse.

Lord ALT HORP—The complaint of the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman of a breach of the privileges
of this House, comes before us in rather an extraor-
dinary shape—(Cheers and laughter)—because, although
his complaint is, that the speeches in this House are
reported in the newspapers, the cause of his complaint is,
that his speeches are not reported.—(Great laughter.)
The motion of the Hon. and Learned Member is in its
technicality very extraordinary.—(Hear, hear, hear.) I
am scre that no man—l am sure that no Gentle-
man in this House—would wish to do any tiling
that could have the effect of preventing the fair report-
ing of the debates of this House.—(Loud cheers.)
I believe, generally speaking, that the debates are reported
very fairly.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") I say, gene-
rally speaking.—(Hear.) I cannot say at present that
I am a very good judge, for the House might be aware
that I have not a great deal of time to read them—
(Hear)—but when I have had occasion to look at what
has taken place in this House, I have thought that it
has been fairly done.—(Hear.) I certainly do think it
is for the interests of those persons who report the pro-
ceedings, as well as it is for the interest of the public,
that the reports should be done with the greatest
impartiality, and therefore I do believe that, in departing
from that principle, they could not be acting according to
their own interests.—(Hear, hear.) I dare say by this time
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman has seen a
little of the effects of what is called passive resis-
tance—(Loud laughter, and repeated cheerings)—
but I ant prepared to say, that no person who wishes
to see this privilege continued under sufferance—to the
benefit, I am sure, of the community at large—but
must be anxious that it ba exercised with the greatest
impartiality.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The
attention of the House, however, being now called to the
subject, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman having
given expression to his sentiments, and the wish of the
House being that this privilege should be exercised
with impartiality, I hope that gentlemen will not so
readily take offence at any thing that occurs, and
I certainly do hope that the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber will not persevere in his motion : for we could not
in reason or common sense call any person to the Bar for
publishing the debates, all of us knowing that they are
regularly published. I hope the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber will be satisfied with the notice he has taken of the
subject, and withdraw his motion.—(Loud cheers.)
Dr. BALDWIN said that, looking at the papers gene-
rally, the Hon. Member for Dublin had been the best
treated of any in the House by the Press of London.
Not a Member on that side of the House, and none ex-
cepting the Right Hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury benches
(who had more frequent occasions to address the House) hail
any thing like the same space afforded them, as the
Hon. and Learned Member.—(Hear, hear.) He thought,
therefore, that the Hon. and Learned Member had no
right to complain. He (Dr. Baldwin) did not feel any
particular regard for that Hon. Member, but he did consi
der him to be one of the main props of the Irish represen-
tation in that House, ant; he should regret exceedingly that
any feeling should emist, between the Hon. Gentleman and
the press, by which his service to the country might be
reduced. Ha entreated him, therefore, to withdraw his
motion.--(Hear.) It ought to be considered that the pub-
lic press of London was not confined in its operation to the
metropolis, nor to England, Ireland, or Scotland, but it
extended over the whole empire, and he might say over
all the world.—(Hear.) He would repeat, that it did
not become a Member to make such a motion, who had
received so much fairness at their hands.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL would only modify his motion by
altering the day for the appearance of the proprietor of
time paper from to-morrow to Monday.—(Cries of " Oh,
oh," and " No, no.")
Mr. FINN (as we understood the Hon. Gentleman)
wished some mode could be adopted of asserting the privi
leges of the House only with reference to partial and
unfair reports.
Lord STORMONT was at a loss to know with what
view the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin wished
to call the parties in question to the bar. It must be either
to punish them for the offence of publishing the proceed-
ings of that House—a proposition which could hardly
be made—or to dismiss them untouched. That was the
situation in which the motion placed them. The indivi-
duals in question were to be brought up upon a breach of
privilege, which breach of privi:ege was publishing the
proceedings in that House ; and then the charge that was
to be made against them was not that they published re-
ports of the speeches of other Hon. Members, but that
they did not publish reports of the speeches of the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman. It was no doubt much to be
desired that the reports of the proceedings of that House
ought to be fairly and impartially reported ; and be was
certainly of opinion that during the last two years the re-
ports had not been given with so much ability and impar-
tiality as formerly. But he did not see how that could be
remedied by called the parties in question to the bar.
_ .

Mr. O'CONNELL, in answer to the Noble Lord, said
that he had not placed a breach of privilege in its present
shape. If any proposition were brought forward in a tan-
gible shape, to render reports impartial, he would support it.
Lord J. RUSSELL supposed no one could deny that
it was exceedingly proper that the reports of their pro-
ceedings should be fairly given. But he could not accede
to the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The
view which he (Lord J thn Russell) took of questions of
privilege, was that the House was too liable to come to a
hasty decision respecting them. On this occasion he per-
fectly aereed with the Hon. and Learned Member, that
the indulgence of the House in permitting the debates ti,
he published had been abused. This was not a solitary
instance of its being so. He recollected, that when on
some occasion the present Lord Chancellor expressed an
opinion personally unfavourable to the reporters, his pu-
nishment was, that for a time all his opinions on ques-
tions of law and of foreign and domestic policy were
suppressed. He agreed that the circumstance in question
was an abuse of power, hut he did not Pee his w iy out of
the difficulty, and thought that if the House adopted the
proposition of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin,
they would scarcely extricate themselves without some lose
of dignity. He should therefore vote agan'st the motion.

Mr:. WHALLEY observed that the wonder was, not
Vat there were occasional inaccuracies in the reports of
the debates in that House, but that those reports were
given so well. It should he remembered, that if all the
speeches in a debate were reported at full length, a single
newsp.per would not contain them. The best check
which existed against any undue proceedings in that House
was, that the discussions upon every subject were con-
veyed by means of the newspapers to all parts of the env.
p re. if a complaint were made that the speech of an
Hon. Member were misreported, a fair occasion might
present itself for the interference of the House; but when
the complaint was that the spe..ich of an Hon. Member bad
not been reported at all, he was at a loss to understand in
what terms the Speaker could express hims.lf, if the
offending party were called to the bar. He should cer-
tainly, vote against the motior.
Mr. TENNYSON said, if it were a breach of privdepa
to report, it must be a breach of privilege to misreport.
Now the omission of any -peches in a debate placed th©
proceedings of that House in an erroneous point of view.
He thought some means might, in a Committee, be found
of obviating the evil. But he perfectly agreed with the
Noble Lord that great difficulty would attend the course
taken by the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin. He
hoped, therefore, the Hon. and Learned Member would
be satisfied with what had taken place in the discussion,
and if the error were repeated he would consider in what
better mode to proceed. He recommended the lion. and
Learned Member to withdraw his motion.

Mr. SPRING RICE said, that if ever there was an
occasio❑ which required this step of avoiding the expres-
sion of an opinion by the House, and of adopting the
previous question, it was this. The course proposed by
the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin would cont.•
promise the true privileges of the House, as it could le id
to no satisfactory result. No one could suggest what they
were to do if the motion were carried. On the contrary,
if it were negatived, that might compromise the privi-
leges of the House. When he saw the notice of the Hon.
and Learned Member on the order book, he thought that
it was merely intended as a warning. He would not oc-
cupy the attention of the House with any details respect
ing so unimportant a perso❑ as himself. All he woral ray
was, that when he was in the position in which the 1100
and Learned Member now stood, he found that the best
course to adopt was to pass by the matter with total
indifference, rather than place the House in a situatio❑ of
difficulty. In his opinion, the only remedy for the evil
was to be found in the impartiality and good sense of the
public. Wnat other remedy was there? Would they
have official reporters? In that case, everything must be
taken down, and a valueless mass would be produced,
that would be perfectly useless. The public required to
have reports of the proceedings of that house ; and the
public, by the exercise of their judgment, must render
those reports impartial. Without that, no interference of
the House could be beneficial ; and unless any attempt
were made, by distortion, to give a colouring injurious
out of doors to the character and honour of individual
Members, the less the House interfered the better. On
those grounds, he would move the previous question—ft
precedent for which existed in the case of Thomas Franklin,
in the year 1771. As to the privilege of excluding persons
from the House, that was a privilege with which he
thought they ought never to part. Valuable as the pub-
lication of the debates generally was, times and circum-
stances might arise which would render that publication
undesirable. The privilege ought, therefore, to be pre-
served ; but be did not think that any case had now been
made out for its exercise.
Mr. O'CONNELL asked the Hon. Member if he did
❑ot think the omission of all notice of a speech a ease ?
As long as there remained a thread of their privileges, he
would not submit to lie punished by the reporters. He
had given his notice in the hope that it might have a pro-
per effect ; but, on the contrary, the right to continue the
practice in question had been audaciously asserted. Ile
was persuaded that it was absolutely necessary that the
House should have reporters of their own. He would
certainly persevere, and if this privilege were trampled
upon, be would go on to move that the gallery be cleared ;
for he should be unworthy of the great city which sent him
there, if he were to submit to the basest of all despotisms.
Mr. SANDFORD said that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman talked of punishment. He owned, that after
having heard the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's original
complaint, be was very little surprised at what had taken
place. to his opinion, there was as much fairness and
accuracy in the reports of the proceedings in that House
as could be expected.

Mr. O'CONNELL asked what reports the Hon.
Ge❑tleman was speaking of ?
Mr. SANDFORD answered, of the reports generally.
In his opinion that House would do well to imitate the
example of the other House, and to assign a proper and
convenient place for the reporters. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman complained of having been misreported.
Mr. O'CONNELL observed that he had not said a
word of himself.

Mr. SANDFORD said that the only way in which
the reporters could act was not to report the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman at all.

Mr. BUCKINGHAM was understood to eulogise the
system adopted in the Chamber of Deputies in France,
and to recommend that accommodation similar to that
afforded in the House of Peers should be provided in that
Haase.

Sir R. H. INGLIS understood that in his absence allu-
sion had been made to an expression attributed by one of
the Morning Journals to him, which he had certainly
never used. He should be content with stating, however,
'hat the feeling excited with reference to that expression
had no need to be so strong in Ireland, since in those other
parts, and to those individuals to which it had once been
applied—such gallant sou's as an Argyle or a Gordon, for
instance--it had never been considered as an epithet of
degradation, but one of honour and of glory. As to the
more immediate question, he must say he was perfectly
astonished at the general acetiracy—(Cheers)—at the
more than extraordinary fidelity with which the reports
of that House were given—a fidelity which was almost
marvellous, so instinctively and instantaneously were the
ideas of Hon. Members caught hold of by the genlewen
in the gallery.—( Hear, hear.)

Sir It. PEEL said if Mr. Clement were called to the
bar of that House, he really could not understand in what
manner they were to address him—(A laugh)—or what
promise they should exact.—(Hear, hear.) The real
question was, that the power of that House was so great
that they were afraid to exercise it.—(Hear.) If they
were to exclude reporters altogether, such a proceeding
would he entirely dissonant to the feelings of the public,
and would inflict a serious injury on the business of that
House and of the country—(Hear)—and yet what other
control had they than by a threat, which, however, they
would be all averse to putting into execution? There was
to be sure another way in which they could proceed, and
that was by authorizing a body of men to act as their own
reporters. But there were many objections to a recog-
nised body, for their reports must not only be very accu-
rate but verbal, which ne believed would be found very
inconvenient to many of them.—(Hear, and laughter.)
He did not hesitate to say that the present plan was the
preferable one. Whether verbal reports of proceedings
would raise the character of that House with the country—.
(A laugh)—he left to the judgment of each individual
gentleman. Indeed he believed that under such a system
it would be found. impossible in the House of Commons to
give faithful transcripts of what occurred. But as to the
,iomplaint then before the House, in his opinion they must
look to the public for a corrective.—(Hear.) The speeches
of the Honourable and Learned Member for Dublin
were of far too much importance to the country to be
suppressed, and be might depend he would triumph over
the efforts now made for that purpose. This casual colli-
sion between the Honourable Gentleman and the press—
(Laughter)—would soon pass away ; and if he would be
advised by him, he would at once withdraw his motion.—
(Cheers.) By devising any new means of making the
public acquainted with their proceedings, it was his own
opinion that they would not at all improve the reports.--
(Hear, hear.) He had heard with great alarm the state-
ment made by the Hon. and Learned Member the alter
/lay that the salaries of reporters had bees reduced from
six to two guineas a week ; fur he, of course, concluded
that the interest of the public in the proceedings of that
House had fallen off precisely in the same ratio—(Loud
laughter)—thst they took only one-third an interest in
cheat that they formerly did.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentle-
man had, however, corrected that mistake. Now, though
he did not deny that the conduct which the Honourable
:Wernher complained of was a great abuse of the in-
fulgence of that House, he felt bound to Pay
chat the reports iti the public journals were :ze-
nerally characterised by great impartiality and wonder-
ul fidelity. When he saw the Honourable Gentleman
telling foul of the reporters for their inaccuracy, be roust
rewind him that there were times when it was impossible
T, avoid errors. That very evening when an fj-17.0::the
lemon (Mr. Buckingham, we believe) rosel d
:t the unavoid.
)4;:ise of leaving it—(.A laugh)—and
it was impossible
ible noise attendant on their departure,
n like correctly
(card. the Hon. Gentleman could be anythe
motion,g
but
(card. His advice was not to press !o
House, from forty to fifty Members rose,ida to address
the pur.
public, who wool I
cave the matter in the hands of
hortly right itself if occasion required.
It was better to
present, a •
all events, that tl:e mqti should e
than that it should be n gativ.:si. It jass,i(e wer
rut done another fortnight would not elapse before the re