The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-29 00:00:00

suggestion offered by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Warburton) near
him. If the resolution before the House were carried into effect,
,t must result in complete bitterness on the part of the people
.f Ireland towards the House.
Mr. BROTH F:TON had dreadv seconded tha ani,r.drc.,,t.
tie thought that it was very often tile case that the less a man
Nas restricted the more stringently he considered himself to
IJa bound. He had a foolish idea, that if it was left to Hon.
Members unfettered to perform their duties, that they would
very seldom be found shrinking from the performance of
them. He would trust entirely to their sense of honour and
duty. If any Member should be found refractory, he would
rather leave him to answer for his conduct to his constituents
than punish him by a rule of the House for his neglect. The
Hon. Member for Limerick perhaps had a different view in
persisting in his contumacy—he wanted the House to send him
to the Tower, so that the sympathies of the people might be
raised, but he (Mr. Brotherton) did not wish to make a martyr
of him ; therefore he thought the suggestion of his Hon. Friend
should be adopted.
Mr. MORRIS O'CONNELL thought that nothing more
than a mistaken notion of his duty was attributable to his Hon.
Friend. the Member for Limerick. If he had wished to evade
the duties of the House, he might have gone to Ireland, and
remained there secure from any interruption.
Sir G. GREY was of opinion that no other course was
open to the House than the adoption of the resolution which
had been originally submitted. He did not see how they
could refuse to pass the original proposition. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Limerick had had sufficient time to reflect upon the
consequences of his refusal to serve upon Committees. The
Hon. Member had refused to obey the order of the House,
red it was very evident he must be held as in contempt of the
House. He must say, therefore, that he saw no reason to alter
the resolution before the House.

by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government
in his allusion to the Scottish Union, and the position which
certain Members of that House had been enabled to
obtain under it, as well as in his reference to the privi-
t ^t. ;rF. eh they et.joyerl from the same sonrce.—(Flear. )
et makeo
Imperialee
Pr taarilni
a:Aml
ee
nmtb, et rask
irneg-
Ffrroiemndti,mtheeimMmememb;
for the City of Cork, mean when he talked of this authority notoe
utAuplroinntehdtahtfeoitnrbselerlUevlenasnioadnllAhtlhaeedmpdbooewnrseerowsf, all the authorities, and all the
aths
b exlvo
What
agte
dd
dt ohlli Is eHmobne.r s
rpiraill.'—ileg(eHsewarh,ichheahra.d)
being sanctioned by the common law of the land? He agreed
with the Hon. and Learned Member that they had no right by
the common law to compel the attendance of Members on
Committees, but they had that law of the land which passed
by the name of Parliamentary law—(Hear, hear)—a law, in
many respects, of higher authority than the common law, and
which was necessarily admitted by the common law itself.—
( Hear.) His Hon. and Learned Friend must have come to
his conclusion not in a moment of serious contemplation, but
rather while he was influenced by a desire to relieve a friend
from difficulty. It would indeed be attended with serious in-
convenience if they allowed an opinion to be entertained
that the House had no such authority as that claimed in the
present instance over Members coming from a particular part
of the empire, and he hoped the House would put down such a
notion by asserting its authority. What was that authority ?
It was what he had already stated. The House had a right to
call upon every Member to discharge those Parliamentary
duties which, from their situation and position, devolved upon
them, in such manner as the wisdom of the House might deem
necessary for the public benefit.—( Hear, hear.) When it was
necessary to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act, what was the
course the House adopted ? Was it not to appoint a private
Committee to report to the House upon its expediency ? And

=pee -
Mr. O'CONNELL thought that it was unnecessary for the when the country was in a disturbed state, was it not usual to
House to come to this resolution, for his Hon. Friend, the appoint Secret Committees to make inquiry into the cause,
Member for Limerick, was certainly not aware of any notice and report to the House the result of that inquiry ?
being sent to him; and, to say the least, it seemed strange that How many questions, then, relating to the peace of the country,
the measure should he so hastily and harshly pressed. to the due administration of justice, or to the conduct of
Sir R. PEEL could no, help expressing his astonishment Ministers and other public functionaries, were there, which it
and regret at hearing that any Hon. Gentleman could have was necessary and desirable should be inquired into by a Se-
supposed that in the course of this debate any party cret or a Select Committee; but how were they to receive
could have come to any decision on the subject, in consequence these inquiries if the House had not the power to command the
of having been actuated by anything like personal feeling, services of every Member in such manner as it might think
He could not help expressing his feelings on the point, and it essential for the public benefit ? He agreed with his Honour..
was one of very deep regret, for nothing, he believed, was and Learned Friend the Member for Cork, that Parliament
more contrary to the sentiments entertained by the whole of might abuse its power as a court of justice might do,
the Members of that House than that of hostility to the Irish but his Honourable and Learned Friend might rely upon
Members. It should be remembered that this was not the it, when the House sought to abuse its power by making
first time that a Member of the House had been placed in this any absurd resolution, it would be soon taught repentance.
position. During the session of last year the Hon. Member Now as to the question of whether the House could compel
for Winchester (Mr. B. Escott) had been appointed to serve the attendance of its Members on Committees—could it not
an two Committees, and was afterwards appointed Member of send fur the public—could it not send for witnesses, if they
a third. He had conceived that his attendance on the first two would not come ? Well, then, had it more power over the
ught to exonerate him from any duty in the third, and he public than over its own Members?—(Hear, hear.) They
had accordingly declined to attend. The Select Committee came there pledged to do their duty to the public, and who was
made a representation of the circumstance to the House, and to decide what that duty dernatided, what services it required,
he was ordered to attend. That Hon. Gentleman made his and how it could best be performed, but the united wisdom of
appeal to the House, and stated the facts, anti of his utter in- the House itself ? ( Hear, hear.) Therefore, then, the
ability to do duty in three places at the same time ; but the power to order Hon. Members to attend Committees was per-
House overruled his objection, and he was obliged to console fectly clear. But that was not the question here. The ques-
himself by doing his duty as well as he could, fur the order of tion they were considering was the disobediency of an Hon.
he House was made that he should attend upon all Member in not attending a particular Committee; and, sub-
the Committees.—( Hear, hear.) He might also refer to a sequently treating with cont mpt an order of the House. It
circumstance which occurred in the year 1830, when a similar was true the appointment of the Hon. Member was
instance had happened. The Hon. Member in that case had made by a Committee of Selection; but the House,
not attended his Committee. The report was made—he stated having delegated its powers to this Committee, the
his reasons, and the House admitted that those reasons were appointment had become the act of the House. It was now
valid, and excused him. Why does the Hon. Gentleman then their act. It was by the authority of the House that the Hen.
presume that he should not be equally amenable to the rules of Member was called to attend the Committee, and what was now
•he House as any other individual who is willing to submit to their situation?—( Hear, hear.) Why, it was such that there
its orders? Here there was no endeavour to palliate his con- was only one course open to them. He deeply regretted that
duct ; and instead of endeavouring to excuse himself, he had re- this question should have arisen, and that regret was increased
ferred to his correspondence, and stated that he had an ob- by the fact, that the question had sprung out of the refusal of
jsction to serve, on a ground of public principle, and gave no an Irish Member to attend on a Committee connected with the
other reason than a vague statement of feeling. He had in- private business of the House, because their present course,
deed said that he would attend unon no other Committees than being misunderstood, or misrepresented, might be productive
those which might sit upon the affairs of Ireland. What other of more unpleasant feeling in the sister kingdom. He re-
course then could the Committee of Selection pursue than that gretted the more that the course of the Hon. Member for
of reporting his conduct to the House ; and what other course Limerick was adopted with the sanction of his Hon. and
could the House pursue than that of affirming the resolution Learned Friend the Member for Cork. But he was confident
that had now been submitted to them? The amend- his Hon. and Learned Friend in his calmer moments would
ment which had been moved on this resolution by the change his opinion, anti he trusted the Hon. and Learned
Honourable and Learned Member for the county of Cork Gentleman would give the House the benefit of his
sent to neither more nor less than doing away with the power sober judgment upon the all-important question. It was
of the House to compel Members to attend to these Corn- for the interest of Ireland the House should have power
mittees, and provided that every Member should be excused over the Irish Members, and let it be remembered that when
from attendance by assigning a special reason. Why he they joined the House it entitled them to certain rights and
believed, if such were the case, the Hon. Member would very privileges, and they claimed these rights and privileges to
soon find that every idle man would speedily discover abundance enable them to discharge the duties which the people required
of special reasons for his absence. The Hon. Member seemed of them, but at the same time the possession of these rights
to think that Committees form no part of the House, and that and privileges must make them amenable to the jurisdiction
compulsory attendance on them was beyond its control. If of the House ; and imperfect indeed would the Union have been
such a doctrine were to prevail, most grievous evils would had the jurisdiction of the House been of such a mixed charac-
speedily flow both to the House and to the country, and if this ter that its power over different Members should be placed
question were to be decided against the resolution, the character upon different footings. How then did they stand now they
of the House must speedily suffer. It had always been his had made an order upon one of their Members to attend a
policy to elevate the character of that branch of the Legis- Committee, and he had refused to do so? It was not that the
lature, which more particularly emanated from, and was more Hon. Member up to the present time had acted under any
immediately connected with the people, and upon which the misapprehension, for the Hon. Member, according to his own
eyes of the people were continually fixed. If Hon. Members statement, had duly considered what his duty to the House and
would not give their attendance on these Committees, there his duty to Ireland was, anti he considered he was justified in
must be a power to compel them to do so, or they might on withholding his attendance on that Committee. The Hon.
similar grounds exempt themselves from attendance on the Member could not be committing greater treason to his country
House itself ; and not only the business of the Committees, but than when he argued that he was doing no injustice to Ire-
also the public business of the House would, even under a call, land in not attending. It was desirable that the dignity
become only voluntary, and any Members who chose would be and authority of the House should be preserved, and he for one
exonerated from the most important legislative functions. For hoped the motion of the Hon. Member for Kendal would not
his own part, he conceived that the Committees constituted be allowed to go forth to the public, because, in effect, it ex-
part of the House. The Hon. Member asked whether there cused every man in that House from doing his duty. If the
was any law to compel the attendance of the Members, and House determined to discharge its duty, they must not shrink
from whence they derived their power? He might in the from maintaining their authority when it was distinctly shown.
interim say, and as a sufficient answer to the inquiry, that if Was there any ground, any distinction between private and
they could not compel attendance upon the Committees, neither public Bills? It was true, private Bills interfered materially
could they compel attendance upon the most important business with private rights ; and it was the duty of the House to see
of the country, and they would lose every ability to ensure the that they were properly framed and properly drawn
performance of those duties for which the country had sent them up. There was no distinction then between the two
there. But, with respect to the power, he could tell him that they classes of Bills, and it was the duty of the House to
derived the power from that source of all power in which the employ its members to see that the law was wholesome,
institutions and the laws of the country had their origin, and and that private Bills were framed in such a manner
from which they derived their authority—in the interests of all as to answer the ends of the public. There could be no
classes of that community from whom all power emanated. difference then between the Parliamentary laws which related
The Hon. Gentleman had stated that there was no clause in the to the two class of Bills, and if they did not vindicate their
Act of Union which gave them the power to compel the at- authority in respect of one, Hon. Members might disobey
tendance of the Irish Members. He was right ; nor was there their orders in respect to the other. The question was, then,
any statute law needed to give them the authority. The what course should they take? Now, for himself, he would
right was inherent in the constitution of that House, and pre- not shrink from meeting the difficulty, and on considering
viously existed in the institutions and the necessities out of whether he should vote aye or no, he felt convinced that he
which it arose long before the House itself was formed. If should be doing right if he voted for that which maintained the
such a plea were to be set up, they ought, in his opinion, to authority of Parliament. He trusted that that House, in
give compensation to all those Members from North Britain dealing with this question, would perform its first duty, and
who had served in Committees since the Scottish Union, for maintain its own character and authority, and preserve its
there was no clause in the Act of Union which ex- jurisdiction from all evasion. He extremely regretted that
nressly detailed the rights and duties of those Mem- this question should have come before the House, but there
bers, and the great men of that period had never was no alternative for them to adopt but that which he had
thought it necessary to obtain a sanction of their rights or any already pointed out.
other grants or privileges for the Scottish Members when they Mr. COLLETT said, as he did not wish to render himself
became Members of the United Parliament. If they were to liable to be placed in the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms, he
assent to the statement of the Hon. Member, they must adopt wished to ask the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General a
some principle of action equivalent to that which they were question respecting two resolutions which the House had agreed
now employing, and he therefore saw no alternative between to in the early part of the session.—( Oh, oh.) It would be
affirming the resolution and taking a line of conduct which remembered that a resolution was passed, compelling the at-
would be destructive of the power of the House. They did tendance of Members on Railway Committees, and another to
not rely upon the statute of Henry VIII., to which the Hon. sanction the sitting of the House on Wednesdays, from twelve
Member had alluded, but they relied upon the power which at noon till six in the evening. Now, he wished to know
had been existing in the House throughout the whole series of whether the minor duty of attending a Committee merged into
its proceedings—on that source from which all power arose, the superior duty of attending the House?
the power which enabled to make laws ; and it was on these The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, when the question
grounds that he hoped that they should come to the conclusion came properly before the House, he should feel called upon to
which he conceived to be inevitable. He was sure that the answer it.
House were quite aware of the consequences that would ensue Mr. DISRAELI thought the House could at this moment
if they were to refrain from establishing their authority in this adept a course by which they might legally gain a little time
instance, which all parties allowed to belong to the House of before they came to a conclusion in the present case, for it was
Commons in order to obtain its rights, but the exercise of admitted on both sides that technical notice had not been
which the Hon. Member challenged in the most open manner. served on theeHonourable Gentleman the Member for Limerick,
It was evident how much importance the Members attached to and if they delayed the matter in order that this notice might
this power, and he trusted, therefore, that the House of Corn- be given, it would enable the Honourable Gentleman himself
mons would affirm the resolution.—(Cheers.) to consider his determination, and themselves to look minutely
Mr. H. GRATTAN presumed that this was only a question into the case. But there was strong ground fa- the delay, for
of privilege, and he thought it was inadvisable to bring it on it was admitted that the matter involved a good deal of argu-
at the present time.. There was no ground in law. It was ment, and it was not improbable that the Honourable Member
not necessary to express it ; anti if the House went to a division for Limerick might require to be heard by counsel. It was im-
he should feel it his duty to oppose the resolution. portant, moreover, that the decision on the present occasion
Mr. C. PO WELL regretted to see the spirit of hostility in should not hereafter be upset on the ground of informality; and
which the Government seemed inclined to act with regard to he trusted the suggestion he had just thrown out would be
his Hon. Friend the Member for Limerick.—(No, no.) He adopted by the House. He had heard it said that it was
thought they had better have adopted the suggestions of his totally impossible to carry on the private business of the country,
Hon. Friend the Member for the city of Cork, and was sorry unless they exercised this privilege of compulsory attendance
that the Attorney-General had not adopted the same strain as Why should this be so? The business of the country was
that in which he had proposed it, instead of the hostile tone carried on, a short time ago, without this compulsory power ;
which he had used.—(Cries of " Oh, ch.") Certainly the and it was only within the last twelve months that this new speeches of the Hon. Attorney-General, and of the Hon. Baro- principle was introduced. It was introduced, too, under cir-
net the Prime Minister, had evidenced that hostility. He cumstances of a peculiar character—at a time of great excite-
conceived there was a difference between Irish and English ment—and when there was a strong pressure of private busi-
Members.
ness. It was thought at the time that the pressure of private
Sir R. PEEL—No, no. business would continue, and it was therefore thought ad-
Mr. CHARLES POWELL—There might have been some visable to take this decided step while this excitement con-
grounds for such a motion, if it had been merely an tinned. They violated the constitution of the House with re-
English case.—(" No, no.") But if the House had the power gard to the conduct of the business of private Committees.
to compel the attendance of any Member in this manner, they Now the railway business was falling off it was hardly
might compel him to do anything. For instance, supposing the necessary—it was hardly politic—to sanction this compulsory
case of any gentleman, who for 20 years had entertained parti- rule; but before they came to a decision, they wanted evi-
cuter opinions, and
ahaodcainmeinto the. House five years ago a dente upon the subject. Let them know what the railways
might order
complete monopolistw the exercise of his judgment in the were that this group No. 11 comprised. They might be all
course of three years became
turned.—( Great laughter. converted into a thorough free- bubbles ; and if they delayed this motion for a short time, the
trader, they
him) tiedeenhteer
hoped
dhe House with his coat next bulletin from the Stock Exchange might show that all
issue, for if it did, he conceived that the thew would
drder would not these Bills had vanished ; therefore he hoped the House would
motley group.—(Renewed laughter.). exhibitthat a verythe
themselvestake
sa consideration;
expression,
g a
ia a little bins,
eavailingtime
yHtsoutriested
Government would not persevere, for if they did, he must op- to look into the matter themselves, and give another oppor-
pose the resolution.
tunity to the Hon. Member for Limerick to consider his deci-
Mr. H UME could not help rising to reprobate the opinion sion. It would enable them too, as he said before, to recon-
that there was any difference between Irish and English Mem- eider the spirit of this principle of compulsory attendance.
bers. If the former enjoyed the same privileges as the latter, The circumstances which justified them were daily disappear-
they were equally liable to perform the duties of their office. ing, and they would have an opportunity, at the same time, of
He thought this was not the way to show to the people of relieving themselves from a great difficulty, and yet
Ireland that their Members were protecting their interests. be enabled to preserve the privileges of the House.
He would not take notice of what had been said about turn- Mr. C. BULLER said it was quite clear that his Hon.
coats, and all that nonsense, but he would ask what situation Friend had deliberately refused to attend the summons of the
were those Members in who entered the House after the House, and had, therefore, been guilty of a breach of privi-
Reform Bill? Thera was no law passed to put them in pos. lege ; and he was of opinion that where the requests of the
session of the privileges of the other Members of the House, House were not attended to they should endeavour to enforce a
nor was it necessary to pass any such law for the Irish Mem- compliance. At the same time he was sure that every Member
bers. He regretted that the last speaker had not followed the of the House would, in consequence of the circumstances in
of the Hon. Member for Ku- which his Hon. Friend was placed, wish to see this con-
although he entertained tempt ofthe • •
House visited by temper and moderation. He
Member for Limerick, had de- agreed, in a great with •
the same opinions as the Hon. . who,
measure, the remarks of the Hon.
examplek
en n y ( 1101 fr
. t hJeo John manlyO Csopneneeelhl ) ,
ferred his own feelings to his higher sense of the claims of his Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. Disraeli.) It was certainly
country, and did his duty in Cohmmdittee. He thought that the manifest to every one that a contempt of the House had been
Right Hen. Baronet at the ea
of the Government had committed, and they must, in justice to themselves, see that
iwaanyetoratottehnedriagßtoutthheesew
agreed with him that there was that disobedience with the orders of the House w punished
stated the ease very fairly, and a
ea sr
dseurrse, thh
aa
dt hish e
been
iseaneot
nr
ga b
le
put an end to all business.
no other course to pursue ; fur
this ignorance, and under misapprehension. fie knew that in the
if they
wre h
satl ofwaceed thiscould
duty,
courts of law, if a party to a suit acted in contempt of the
p l et
ah
ei t most
Friend,som e
to fulfil their
in
House, and then, after refusing
:Members avail themselves of the privileges of
the rights of their country. The best courts, he was supposed to act under the advice of his counsel.
stand up to demand
..,...(Hear, hear.) And it was quite clear that in this instance
Ile way to defend those rights was
the Hon. Member for the city of Limerick had been acting
possible
refuse to un-
enjoying the privileges,Learned Member for Cork
that House, and not after
ccom a • d. Those under the advice of the Hon.h and
B
to fulfil their duty in
But the Hon. Member for
dergo the labour by which they were a
Irish, and Scotch (Mr. O'Connell).—(Laugtern.
privileges were equally enjoyed by English,
I the attendance of Limerick should have looked, Connell).—(Laughter.)
to the opinion,* but the ex-
Members, and without the power to eompe
must be stopped. emplary conduct
exponent on such questions.—
the Members, the business of the country .
after all, was the best
•of the feeling of the Irish people than conduct, value
His Hon. Friend ought to lay such a
He had a better opinion
to gratuitous opinions of
ed by all sensible men
what use was it their having as was attach
h •and laughter) His Hon.
the Hon. Member for Limerick—(Cheers)—for. lie believed. Hear, hear.)
hat the Irish people would say—of
Members in the House of Commons,
Friend had been led into error ; he had fancied that a great
heir rights, and how could they do so without fulfilling their
d between the duties of English and Irish
if they did not support Learned Counsel.—(hear, eat, .
not think there
Members of that House. But the House did
duty ?—for they had equal duties to fulfil with the English difference existed
Members. He certainly should affirm the resolution, and hoped Mem
the House would adopt it.
the House in this instance.
Mr. Cries of " Divide, divide;" but with the opinion of
At the same time they must not forget
Mr. E WART rose to ask a question, upon which he was ( Hear, hear. )
existed any, and he (Mr. Buller) thought that he must coincide
considerable extent. A great
xceedingly anxious, and that was—in the event of the motion that the notion of the Honourable Member for Limerick
eing agreed to, whether tht Hon. Member for Limerick would prevailed to a very
and it was evident that
e committed at once into the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms many people fancied that Irish Members were not
or being convicted of contempt, or whether, as the Members subject to the same laws as the English,
He (Mr. Buller),
Kendalattenda attendance
ed
uSpaolfaortdhatthoßuegahste,.he ought to be allowed to renew in disobeying -the summons of the House, the Hon. Member
was acting in conformity with that notion.
give the Hon.
Sir T. WILDE had the highest respect for the Honourable. therefore, thought that it would be but just to
Member for Cork, but he deeply regretted* the opinions which Member an opportunity of reconsidering his opinion.—(Hear,
in the course of this discussion that Hon. Member had ex- I hear.) He should perfectly coincide with the opinion of the
pthreesßseodnrAtiheemmheortifoonr bLeifmoreeritehke H(Aoitirs.es,.aont,liohntetnh)e.eonßdeuct
ro-f
eHoonutesen,dthat a contempt had been committed; but he would
fectly agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, that it was nepeeeresolution, to give the Hon. Member an opportunity of
nary to uphold the rights of that House, and thought the hade- sucha
man of sense to say that he was prepared
coming forward as a . been moderately and fairly stated. He regretted, therefore,that it would be but fair, after the House had come. to
the delusion under which the Hon. Member appeared to some observe-
aye Mr. O'CONNELL explained with regard to
hto submit to the unanimous opinion. of the House.— ( Hear. )
acted; he trusted he would excuse himself, but he ayes bound
down.tions *which had fallen from the Hon. Member who had just sat
to say that, on the present occasion, both his Parliamentary
and his common law were decidedly bad. The House were Sir Sir R. H. INGLIS said it was his misfortune to differ very
fully aware of the grounds on which this resolution was based, frequently of late with the opinion of the majority of the House.
It was well known that Parliamentary law was a part of the He would, however, venture to say, that he would give his cor-
' law of the land, and he thought this law had been fairly stated dial support to the original motion. He held that it would be