The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-22 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, July 21.
In the absence of the Lord Chancellor, the Earl of
SCUTUM:TRY opened the business of the House by re-
citing the Bills which stand for a second reading, all of
which were forwarded a stage.
UNIVERSITY TESTS.
The Earl of GALLOWAY presented a petition,. signed
by the Ministers and Presbytery of Stanraer, against the
abolition of the University Tests.
THE SEES OF ST. ASAPH AND BANGOR.
This Bill went through Committee pro forma and was
ordered to be read a third time on Thursday.
SITES OF CHURCHES IN SCOTLAND.
The Marquis of BREAD &LBANE stated that he
wished to call the attention of their Lordships to a peti-
tion of which he had given notice. The petition ema-
nated, from several different synods of the Free Church
in Scotland ; and there were also petitions from other
places. There were 135 petitions from different con-
gregations, making the amount of signatures
18,136. There were 114 petitions from district towns,
with 20,904 signatures attached. There were also
nine others, with 698 signatures. All those petitions
complained of cases of direct interference with the erec-
tion of their churches. The total number of petitions
amounted to 296, and the number of signatures to 39,781.
The general prayer of all these petitions was to the ef-
fect that many congregations were prevented from build-
ing churches by the refusal of the proprietors of land
to grant sites, and they wished to have some powers
enabling. them to purchase ground on rgasonable con-
ditions, in order to erect places for the worship of God.
From the great number and respectability of these peti-
tioners, it might be seen what a general and anxious
feeling prevailed on this question in Scotland, and their
Lordships must come to the opinion that, however anxious
they might be to support the Established Church in
that country—however much they might lament the
separation which had taken place ; and however unim-
portant they might consider the causes which led to the
destruction of that church now that that destruc-
tion had taken place—that the great bulk of the
people of Scotland had seceded from the Establishment—
no hindrance should be given to them in the exercise of
their religion according to the dictates of their con-
science. This was in accordance with - the prin-
ciples of the constitution of this country, and also in
conformity with the Toleration Act of Scotland.
Now, the landholders were, in fact, persecuting the fol-
lowers of the Free Church, but ho would remind them of
a great and noble saying of a man who held high office
in the sister country. namely, " That in the
possession of property there were great ob-
ligations to be observed, as well as rights
to be enjoyed." Now, in their persecution they were
forgetting this great principle, and he trusted they
would at once see the necessity, as well as the
justice, of discontinuing it.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He a ould not detain their Lordships much longer, but
he would ask their Lordships to consider this as a matter
of policy. The Free Church numbered at least one-
third of the entire population of Scotland. It was a
strong and vigorous religious body, calculated to pro-
mote the religious and moral education of the people.
And he contended that it would be the policy of the
Legislature and Government of this country and the
landed proprietors of Scotland rather to encourage than
discourage them. The number of the congregations of
the Free Church of Scotland was 816, and the number
belonging to all the other religious bodies, not connected
with the Established Church, was 815. The number
of the ministers of the Free Church was 662, and the
number of the elders 3,000, who were assisted by
3,000 deacons. In the Lowlands there were 84 con-
gregations, and in the Highlands 50 congregations.
The communicants of the Free Church were 200,000.
It was said that there were only 60,000 communicants
in the whole of London, with a population of 2,000,000.
There were already 600 churches erected, and there
were 30 in the course of erection, and 40 were still re-
quired for the existing congregations. 171 manses
were already built, and many more were in the course
of erection and intended to be erected. There
was also a Free Church college, the funds for
the erection of which had been subscribed; it was fur-
nished with an efficient body of professors, and would
bear comparisen with the first college in the kingdom.
The library of the college contained about 30,000
volumes. There were upwards of two hundred salaried
teachers of Free Church schools. There was also a
normal school at Edinburgh, which had cost 140,0001.
He thought the provisions of the Bill introduced by the
Right Hon. Member for Perth (sir. Fox Maule) so well
defined, that no injury could arise from the carrying it
into effect. He only regretted that, instead of being
confined to Scotland, it had not been extended to the
whol, kingdom. He hoped the Noble Lord who
represented the Government in that House would be
able to make some statement that the Government would
be prepared to support any measures that were calcu-
lated to give effect to the prayer of the petitioners. He
would now conclude by pressing on their attention the
prayer of the petition.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE could not let
the opportunity pass without saying that he
could not conceive of any Parliamentary measure
that should compel the granting of sites for churches
without the consent of the possessors of the land. At
the same time he expressed the hope that matters would
be so arranged that there would be no necessity for ap-
plying to Parliament for a measure to give effect to the
objects which the petitioners sought to carry out.
After duly considering the circumstances of thecase, and
the importance of the numerous body from whom the
petitions emanated, he was yet unprepared to go into
any legislative measures, but he trusted that it would ex-
cite a disposition in all those connected with the district,
and especially in those who were great proprietors, to
provide suitable sites where churches might be erected,
where the members of this important body of Dissenters
might carry on their public worship in a way acordant
with their principles, and vet he felt that this movement
of the people of Scotland was one which it was difficult
to manage, for it affected the church of that country,
although it neither interfered with the principles, nor in
any way disturbed the discipline, by which its members
were governed; and it therefore ought to be respected in
such a way that they might not have their consciences
needlessly injured. One advantage at least he trusted
would result from these petitions, and that was a change
in the disposition of the landholders, and that benefit
would at least arise to that extent on this, which he did
not deny to be a most important subject.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH. quite agreed with his
Noble Friend, but he must deny the representation of
this body of Dissenters, that they had been treated with
intolerance, for no religious body could have met with
more tolerance than bad the Free Church of Scotland
It might be well for them to speak in the gentle terms
they now used, but what they desired was nothing more
nor less than than this, viz., to take that part of a man's
estate which best suited their convenience, whether he
desired it or not ; and this they did with great
asperity and open hostility, for proof of which
reference need only be male to their
Own newspaper. As one instance, one distinguished
author, and eminent member of the Free Church,
had , plainly stated his belief that the Church
of Scotlaud was a nuisanse which ought
to IMP swept from ..the face of the earth.
He always had resented, and always would resent and
fight against every interference by any man, or body of
men, between him and his tenants or labourers.
It was a question entirely between them and
himself, and not' ly,ltweeu strangers, who came
from a. distance to, excite AL, people against him.
If the people were allowed to be quiet, there
would be 110110 of this excitement. He had ,]Teen most
unjustifiably attacked, and his conduct had been held up
to ridicule and scorn. All he had to state was, he should
oppose this measure. The object of the Bill was to en-
able those parties to take sites wherever they might
wish. The measure was most unjust, and if such powers
were asked for by any other sect, or by the Established
Church, it would be instantly rejected.
The Marquis of BREA DALBANE wished to ask the
Noble Duke, whether upon his own property there had
not been a congregation worshipping in the open air,
in the highest piece and part of Scotland, ex-
posed to . the cold and severity of the elements
for the last two or three years ; and whether
these unfortunate members of the Free Church were not
mimes on his estate, who had asked him repeatedly to
give them a site fey buil-ding a church upon, but up to
the present time their request had been refused ?
They were so distant from any other place, that they
could not obtain any place of worship unless the Noble
Duke granted it upon his property. Ile would also' ask
the Noble Duke,. whether on a part of his property (the
parish of Canobie), the members of the Free Church
met on a moor, and the Noble Duke took legal means to
drive them from that' moor ? He would ask him
if they did not take refuge on the public
road, and whether the sacrament of the Lords'
Supper was not about to be administered in that cross-
road!—whether the Noble Duke did not refuse them a
suitable site, for they wished to have a centrical situa-
tion? With regard to the mensbers of the Free Church,
the Noble Duke did allow them a tent to worship in,
because—greatly to his credit—he did not think
it suitable or .proper that they should meet upon
the public, road, . and celebrate public worship.
He had stated these facts, because he must ask
whether tl; ey did not amount almost, it not entirely, to per-
secution. Hesaid that these members of the Free Church
were deprived of the opportunity of removing elsewhere,
owing to the great possessions of the Noble Duke, and
therefore he ought to grant it to them. In the last ses-
sion he had presented similar petitions, and the same dis-
cussion arose with respect to these parishes. The Noble
Duke had asserted that the members of the Free Church
could go a distance of five or six miles—he asserted
that they could go a distance of five miles to worship.
He asked if that was a reasonable distance to go to
public worship, especially for the aged and weak,
for they too would have to walk a distance of five miles
to obtain the consolations of religion? There was a fact
which occurred the other day. A. proprietor
of lands in the Western Highlands of
Scotland refused to give sites for churches,
and what were the p. eels obliged to do ?
They were obliged to build iron churches, which
they set afloat upon the ocean, and anchored in one of
the hays. Be did not see why such measures of per-
secution shoal be adopted to compel men to change
their opinions/.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH said that what the Noble
Lord had said was perfectly true, but he did not see
why this class of Dissenters should be favoured more
than any other. He could not understand why they
should object to do what other Dissenters in the pa-
rish did.