The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-04 00:00:00

......„. 4.,..', .
hg,ilation
ofEpiscopal dioceses. By referring to clause tion before the magistrate, he said he had accused him,
end aesee _ ninetein new bishops were proposed, self for the purpose of getting out of the service. He
Melton lgo o't :ern enumerated there was. the Bishv of did not mean to say that he was a good soldier, on the
40w fro w. l? ruseY.--(Loucl laughter.) He wished to contrary, he believed him to he the very reverse. He
he took this Het Noble Lord (L rd 3. Russell) whether merely brought the case forw :rd to show what a man
this Bill tilt Bill under his protection? Attached to would undergo in order to get out of the service. He
eulquhoure -re were the names of Mr. Frewn and Mr. i then referred to the case of a private in the 60th Regi-
meG. (
1„
•.la.se: meet of Cavalry who had attempted to shoot him-
d lea, El that the Hon. Member who ob- self in going off sentry. These were not solitary
what its / '0 to bring in the Bill referred to did not state instances of the injurious effects of the present system.
Sir R. ier°visions weee.
ptsilli,)roa"l,. tlbeirNefGorLe,lBeokeinld.' Sir H. Harding: had stated in evidence before the Corn-
wnontotshing of the details of the rnissioners on the subject of corporal punishment, that
peek as to the nature of soldiers often maimed themselves to obtain their dis-
kr ; "Is*
but lite iiidlOßTß'rsicK charge. He had stated last year that the suicides in the
had read every line of the Bill, cavalry amounted to one in twenty of the whole number
not
genes
to a Bill
ofti.i.nk the House would give their sane- of deaths. That statement had been made upon the
tteuse wool, so monstrous a nature. He hoped the authority of Mr. Marshall, the inspector of hospitals,
Sir G. Gi)li r).erefor e get rid of the Bill at once. and he did not think there was a better authority on
I,ll° lion. let n seed that when the Bill was brought in the subject. He had made application to the Secretary-
ember for i Hoer had objected. He hoped the Hon. at-War for a return of the number of suicides committed
tIP his mini ' :.'resham would not think that he had made in the army • but he had been informed that the return
rSir R. C,) support the Bill as it then stood. could not be given, because the suicides were not kept
ate toe tEL hoped the House would not act preci- distinct from the accidents. He thought, however,
ion. Me erds this Bill, by adopting the advice of the such returns should be kept separate. He
ap Aber fur Evesham to "get rid of it at once." thought that if such returns were made, it would be
bestow' ,r,ared to have had considerable attention shown that a greater number of suicides took place in
there I'd upon it, for upon looking over it he saw the army than among any equal number of men in a dif-
%pee-
IM to be a bishop for Melton Mowbray, to look ferent position.
ilel
S after the spotting interests.—(Laughter.) Colonel FOX—AII the suicides which took place did
Iser. By, IVIILITARY FLOGGING. not take place upon that account.
-Hoe GB. I'iStOTT wished to know whether the Right Captain LAYARD did not suppose that they were
neotion eutletnan the Secretary-at-War would oppose the all traceable to that cause, but he should be happy to be
whether°l. which he had given notice this evening, and shown to be incorrect in the present instance. A great
he bad he Was prepared to answer the queries of which number of suicides did take place, and it was but fair to
Mr, ;leeti notice ? suppose that they arose from that cause, seeing the great
Pared ~,,° MAULE said he was not at present pre- number of punishments and desertions which annually
Fare is u answer the queries of which the Hon. Gentle- took place. He believed that the Right lion. Baronet
Feidaws4 given notice, bonne would probably do so on the Secretary-at-War himself would not like to be tied
3, Week, or Friday onight. down for life to one employment, or to be compelled
0n bti : SUGAR DUTIES. during that term to perform the irksome duties con-
k." nging up the report on the Sugar Duties, netted with the army.—(Laughter.) He thought that if
the Op.„0 RUTT said that on such an occasion he took any person had a right to enlist the Chancellor of the
lie%t t' nanny to say that he would certainly renew Exchequer, he had a perfect right to do so—(Laughter)
tee giessie,n the resolution as to the slave trade, which he —and believed he should do so before he had finished his
roe ,
, ler p.,,,1r ton last session. statement. He thought that no person should be en-
!nteea, `delE wished to ask whether the Government listed for more than ten years, after which pericd he
Inipo„11* to remove and relieve the Canadas of the duties should receive a sum equal to half his pay ; and that
the .71 by our Imperial Act, so that they might enjoy after a period of six months if he enlisted again in that
vantages of free trade ? regiment, or into any other regiment, he should be al-
Itres tiel OtIA.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it lowed to enlist tor eleven years, thus making a total of
kis ects„:intention. of Government to introduce a general twenty-one years' service. It was quite possible that a
41tel alTectine the colonies, and the Canadas would be soldier might be happy in one regiment while be was
lute& .
Sir !Hear,ll,-- hear.) perfectly miserable in another; he would not propose,
**leer ursiERT PEEL said that already a considerable therefore, to confine the soldier entirely to one regiment.
tessaril°'a had been made on some of the immediate ne- As an instance of' the difference of regiment he would
~..eloblell
ha es of this trade, on staves and other articles, and call the attention of the House to the I2th Lancers,
tin fur heard that the Government proposed to make a commanded by Colonel Stowell, in which regiment
r,r
_thee reduction. He did not understand why the there was not a man who had been flogged.—,(Cheers.)
emspees4'ord should not now take the same course with If, after their ten years had expired, they should enlist
11l sara tO the West Indian policy by imperial legislation again for eleven years, they should be entitled to their
4hoory' as was dono by imperial legislation in 1802, and proper retiring allowance of lod. per day. He. knew.
nee)
tom y reduce the duties. that he should be informed of the difficulties in
In tee.: J. RUSSELL said that it was not their object case of any regiment being abroad, and any number of
serer, tee the import duties in the colonies. There were men claiming their discharge at the same time; but re-
(ittle ~1 article's which, if they were admitted free wards could be held out,. and quite sufficient inducements
eltt a e‘,.3' into t'ne colonies, they would no doubt accept given to them to remain. They might be allowed to go
dot,'
;'°ole- But they were' bound to go further than that. to India, where, from all the returns he had seen, most
via' rPsearted to him that, when they said they would re- soldiers who had been there volunteered to return. He
he) e tncs duties on flour and corn from foreign coun- knew he should be told that they lead limited service be-
e 218 to the same terms as the flour and corn of Canada, fore. He was aware of that; but it was altered by Lord
047 admitted the sugar of Cuba, at a certain period, on Hill in 1829. The present system was most unjust, for
,4; U.tue terms as that of Jamaica, they were bound after ten years' actual service, with two distinguishing
lee)? to say, that of the colonies. He thought that there marks of good conduct, they required a man to pay more
! .e certain other articles which they ought to obtain for his discharge than he originally received for going to
ill the same terms from the continent of Europe as from them. After giving men 4L and a few shillings to come
tl '4llgland. They should have power to have those arti- to them, and after getting ten or twelve years' service
es on the same terms as those from London. At the out of him, they required him to pay 5/. How could they
Mme time, with respect to many of those articles, if they expect men who had any prospectof work to go into the
..).'n_aleiteid to retain the differential duties for the purposes of army with the comfortable prospect of twenty-five years'
T ue, as the duties on silk and timber, they could do service, and then 6d. per day to retire upon ?
Cat/ and he, therefore, thought it would be better to give All reports on the subject agreed that the army was
.ethe power' of proposing an alteration and give them madesof the very worst materials, and it had been found
tinn tto confirm their request, or to allow the altera- that the soldier was so placed as absolutely to induce
thou by the permission of her Majesty in Council. He him to commit many acts which caused him to be igno-
tbutauF_E:latohniatfrtheneytrsandoeu.ld have all the benefit they could miniously punished. He wished to call attention to the
immense amount of duty which had to be performed by
el; (*.e le/UME said that he was anxious to save the good men in the army. The good men had the trouble
ee 10! 2 from the imperial duties. He would leave the of doing the duty of the refractory, and of punishing
the!nes to be the judges of their own affairs, and leave them when in disgrace. If they knew what was right
The
entire!
-uhe -Y free from all imperial legislation. and just they could not but admit that it was not right
tehat CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that for any Government to drive a harsh and cruel bargain
the eel
Goverement proposed to do was to empower with these poor men.—(Hear, hear.) It was their duty
Peitlia:hies, if they should think fit, to submit Acts re- to encourage them, and to give them good treatment to
there: a Portion of the duties now enforced on them to induce them to enter and remain voluntarily in the
the e vernraent. The burden of the Act would be to enable army. All the persons who had ever tired the expe-
Nie .‘3wet to assent to any local Act for the purpose of riment of recruiting for a limited period agreed that it
ll • vul
Lf,:tie,
iga,th_e trade of. the colonies from the oppression of was quite successful, and it was tried wish considerable
ees o),0 Posed by imperial legislation. They did not success during the American war. In the year 1806
eltsiefi !Idle colonies any reduction of their revenue, Mr. Wyndham proposed enlistment for limited periods,
'"hetl, `uena at liberty to relieve themselves if they and wished that the 21 years should be divided into
tebe' BOcirie three periods, at the end of each of which
aerY to ei.- ""ING said that it would be more satisfac- the soldier should be entitled to receive his discharge
ie.,"eald :me colonies that the commercial legislation and after a series of the whole three periods that he
,Z,Res of. rn,snate from themselves. They should be should be entitled to be discharged with a pension of Is.
h "41 Zee duties in their own cases. The collection of per day for life. The measure proposed was carried in
tielteevj riveettues under imperial Acts was exceedingly 1806, but was afterwards effectually annulled by an
silisolZos tile:d more duie were collected in conse- alteration in the regulations of the army. Dr. Jackson
tvh ee expensive nature of machinery than was had also written upon the economy of the art.ny, and.he
Yit i nen
tare epee —essary
.; and there was another reason was of opinion that enlistment for an unlimited period
to the al
,legislation should be abandoned with re- was prejudicial to the soldier. and that the army would
. he
e_ townies. be in a much better state if soldiers were enlisted for a
oaOtt ti,esolution was then agreed to. limited period. Sir R. Wilson, in 1804, wrote upon the
r. 0.,e,..xt resolution being proposed, subject, and he expressed his surprise that we should
ee "441-,ETT wished to know what colonies the continue to retain a system which' had been discarded
The !Fele of duties applied to. by other nations as unpolluted. In Austria they en-
t°nrit• IL"TCELLOII of the EXCHEQUER replied listed for eight years, in India for three, and various
the
ii.ish Possessions in America, British possessions in periods in other countries—not. one country but England
It
alaurittus
rete, charter. and the limits of the East India Corn- having unlimited enlistment in its army. The opinion
of Sir 11. Hardinge was in favour of allowing. men to ititrec report was then received, and a Bill ordered to be purchase their discharge after a period of service, and
laced.
the plan, on being tried, was found to operate
T SUPPLY. most beneficially. He, however, objected to the
tres „e report upon the votes in Committee of Supply principle, for money was in that case allowed to be the
"H•breught up, and confirmed. agent by which the soldier was to receive his liberty.
, Cle ,e THE ARMY. There were many and very great defects in their mili-
SPEAKER 'lute reading the order of the day for tary system, but he believed that they were on the point
,3. tstimetes, of a great alteration. He would conclude by moving
tiddre'''talla LAYARD rose to move that an humble that an humble address be presented to her Majesty,
e/q11:: be presented to her Majesty, praying that she praying that she will bo graciously pleased to take into
cite f_ graciously pleased to direct inquiry to be made, her consideration, how far a reduction. of the. period.h
tee".! the reduction of their period of service in the would tend to improve the recruiting system, diminish
Ptelf, Trnta the present unlimited term would tend to desertion, and tend to the better protection of the service.
lissereete a better class of British soldiers, decrease Mr. F. MAULE wished to say a few words upon this
Zl4llll°ll/ and thus add to the efficiency of the army. In very important question. His Hon. Friend had argued
:tees, this motion under the consideration of the the question as if the Government had prejudice or feel-
Zlist at the Hon. and Gallant Member said the House ing against the soldier. He had said that the late Go-
ere once once see that Ithe subject was one of the very vernment had it in contemplation to make some serious
that :!,hoportance and he must ask them to grant him alteration on this subject, and it was a subject of the
4`e, "leh it did and
a former occasion ; that was to most important nature. He (Mr. F. Maule) did not
e.l.ehits
t kind attention and indulgence—an attention wish to give any decided opinion on one side or the
(14a he was sure was deserving of the case itself— other. His Hon. Friend had alluded to the number of
Slcil'lehear)—and an indulgence which he trusted desertions which were shown to take place by the re-
ettit,e granted, and which would be wanted, from the turns, as being caused by the knowledge of being en-
ey Vis of the advocate. After a most deliberate in listed for an unlimited period. He would ask the Hon.
.Itetedrite the subject, he had formed the opinion that a Member at what period these desertions took place.
"then't service in the army would greatly benefit the They took place the first or second year,
t rid the army. It would have the effect of giving when the mind of the soldier was acted upon by a dislike
rtes why a better description of men to perform those of the rough tasks he had to perform ; but they in a
he:neve -innieh were entrusted to soldiers, and would short time almost invariably returned to their duty, and
t‘nearet,:agreat measure the quantity of crime which gave themselves up to their former engagement. He
te dare eto say was committed by those to whom the assured the Hon. and Gallant Member that from his ex-
„t 'rn43 01 our army were entrusted. Ile contended perience, he should know that those
.concerned in the
l'resii-,,,Y limiting the numbers of years of enlistment the management of' the army dictall in their power to make
`4110,0 would have a better description of men; and that the position of the soldier comfortable, and he (Mr. F.
kuilt Of the crime of which the army was at present Nlaule) did not see that the Hon. Member had any right
Pre"' and the existence of which he would be able to to assume that all the suicides which took place in the
ithettel,w, °Luld be lmited to a very great extent. He army arose from the distaste for a permanent enlistment.
'tthje-" he should do wisely by bringing forward the The enlistment certainly took place for an unlimited
411. forme Under discussion in the same way that he did on period, but the army allowed a graduated scale, and not
Zettd—,er neeasion• that was, by dividing it into different a very unjustly graduated scale, of means of escape.
;ow ttah' and first, 'he shoul be able to show the House After ten years service, the price was 21/. in the cavalry,
;111t1 tin-P°Pular the present system was in the countr'le "w unPonular it y, and 151. in the infantry, and that was without any d.is-
was also with the soldiers. In tinguishing marks of good conduct. Any distinguishing
there sePnd place, he should be able to show marks of good conduct, to the number of two or more,
%hoe, itine irepoliey of the present system. He would would at the end of 21 years entitle the soldier to his
add ashen: that the present system led to fearful crime discharge free. In the cavalry, under the same circum-
Will ", immense amount of punishment. He would then stances, the price was only 5/.
hie he his arguments in the strongest manner in Captain LAYARD—He cannot claim his discharge.
111 - he
a ill, believed it could be brought forward, and, with Mr. F. MAULE—Much had been done by the late
prone of the House, he hoped he should be able to Government for the benefit of the army. Schools had
able hi; case successfully. He believed he should be been established for the children of soldiers, and libra-
Net.' show that the change he proposed, would be of ries had been established, in which there were 30,000 or
tead, benefit to the country, while a great saving in ex- 40,000 volumes. These and other measures had been
great would would be gained. They should remember the taken to confer on the soldier the advantages of a citizen,
teeeL eettent ee territory they had,. and the small force i.n and he denied that he ever ceased to be a citizen. With
VParison to that territory which they had at their respect to the proposition of his Noble and Gallant
1141°,841 They h
- naisn e had
colonies,b been
n 'and taedterorlitorya Friend,rem emeeasrertftibaet there were
o2f4,tohooe service,soders it should sthhoeut.sl
Westbe
ItroletiZnis) evening, forty-nine
recently, in the East Indies had been extended Indies, and 31,000 in the colonies, making a total of
ktilbanukts of the Sutlej, and they had but 120,000 men to 54,000 who served but for 14 years. He thought,
Oteet .
change he proposed, therefore, was, one therefore, in consideration of all these circumstances,
able ed to their most serious consideration. e would be
hitttl it.
The
• ' II be that the House would not entertain the proposition of
led:
show from reurns he had in his possession, an e Noble and Gallant Gentleman.—(Hear.)
ee _ mation
lett'''. infor ' • herb ad received, the alarming preys: their DE L ACY EVANS—WhiIe agreeing fully in
1)f th,,°f crime in the army. He had received a r
towards the army, he could
return what had been stated with respect to the beneficial
kti A desertersV from the army in Great Britain, Ireland, measures of Government
Gll Gentleman
bet ::colonies during the three years ; that was in not consider the proposition of the a an
"u:ese T 43, and 1844. In Canada the deserters during beset with such difficulties as was supposed.
.With re-
Act,
„ teed years was 735, of whom II were
4". t -tee 1 3retaken or spect to the West Indies, according to the Mutiny -
te'rlitilber.esin Great Britain during the same time the the power vested in the Governors of the colonies ren
see I desert was 5 208 of whom 3,286 were re- dered any apprehensions
or r . . deserters „
disposition to
to *hen, :joined ; and in Ireland the number was 1,594, believed, moreover, that there was no _. .
on that head groundless. He
was also an objection
ea, tie
'441 —rele'ls9 were retaken or rejoined. Making the leave the English army. There
eo-tit'hra,,,eeall of deserters in those three years 7,537, of to be urged a aint the argument of the Hon. Gentle-
respect to
The ""n for;lvere retaken, and leaving 2,899' not ac- man who had glast addressed. the House, with
to 1 eXPeese or a loss of about 1,000 men a year. the power in the commanding officer to allow a soldier
.
tit 845 had L'r these deserters to the country from 1843 to return, for it would be attended with greatdifficulty.
be°ll' lit eseeljeen 71, e 1 By a return moved for by the He would, therefore, give his support to the motion.
it'llish ee'r for Montrose, with reference to corporal Mr. B. OSBORNE was glad to hear the remarks
t'aPtiel:3l.2lt Inflicted during the same period, of the Secretary-at-War, not because he had urged any
erelpu s'.' that there were 3,355 persons upon whom cur- valid objections to the propositions, but because it
ti 0.14 of enlahtnent had been inflicted. He thought the flues- showed that the subject was to be an open question.
fe7ratio-n7P2ral punishment was one deserving of con- When there was so much work about the abolition of
but he punishment thatvery punishment was ren-
tilt; assured should be removed, if possible; by death,
tee at term of enlistm ' '
te Present that flogging could not be removed while dered necessary by the system adopted in; the army.
Year ent was adhered to. Within —(Hear, hear.) In 1799 they were obliged to pr.ess
4,1.411 8 the„
N.. who h__,
sii abeen . ,
sllethey:frthat couldh bde 2B 190 men in the British felons into their service. If they wanted a better article
''' ffered imprisonment. He did not they should pay more for it, and the evil complained of
d system which produced was to be remedied by getting a better class of men to
tillee eets- Many kernthe sub iect - medicala go(
)me is had. written books enter their troops. He trusted, therefore, that those
Illi uet °I. th; which would convince any Hon. who had the interests of the country at heart would
h _attient. _ necessity of some change in the law of stand up in their places in the House, and vote for
ietttitt written
ae_lr.. Marshall had said, .
said, in a work which he the better payment of soldiers. The first who
ato moral , 11". dedicated to Sir Henry Hardinge, that brought
• I^4l
e-e ng ese.l-°lnt of view it eas politic to enlist men for terfield, who submitted a motion
.on this matter in i ,
w r e"ned at an
hods apt to c early age, because at th it age persons and in 1799 the subject was revived by Mr. Wyndham.
hher all., eg.,ure to themselves a thousand instances of He was prepared to show from official documents that
t.,4; no
w%gee ry in which they were to become sharers, the hardships of the soldiers' situation were not ex-
keetetion e doomed to disappointment. In the present ae.official d • tof Sir
eerated. From an . document James
ge dero,, of the army, Continuedthe Gallant Member, . . .
under years ago, it appeared that out of 680
44Y rt "Y. person to point his care, the deaths of nearly one in twenty
te sPeetabi . o out an instance in which men . .
MrGregor some
b :ekes i ( tradesman or farmer would wish his son were caused by suicide. In a book, written by Dr.
eit " the ar
ho 4/ his MY. He v.voyld have to spend all the Reid, it was remarked the present system naturally en-
reee Soar in the service f hiss
*hie's waged with • o is country, and then duced thatlunatics mental depression which caused suicide.
}lon was barely a miserable pen4on of 6d. a day, There were moreinference
a !ie. Te show sufficient to keep him out co thevork- other class, and therefore the . was very justly
gtunst h: S.°W the opinion entertained in the army I drawn. A'youth of eighteen, seduced into the army in a
(Now the . service, the Gallant Member proceeded to state of drunkennees, would become so disgusted when
that he case of deorge Hill of the 67'h, who stated sober at the term of servitude before him as to fall
tzlanehL,/s 2 laus_th,...e . murderer of a young woman of the into that state of mental depression which would lead to
11°'llee-- a?' tirlravvood, who had been murdered at a i suicide.—Hear, hear.) He believed that the proposition
more humtw®, but
Twu
111
tile
ileigiab°l4}399d' Oa his mains- .of his Gallant Friend was not 0111 Y