The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-26 00:00:00

THE CHARTIST PRISONERS.

Mr. WAELEY, after presenting a petition from a
man whose name we did not hear, complaining of the
treatment to which the Chartist prisoners lately con-
victed as misdemeanants at the Old Bailey were subjected
to at the House of Correction, said he had presented upon
a former occasion a petition of the same kind. The pe-
titioners stated their belief that the Secretary for the
Home Department had issued special orders for the
coercive treatment of the prisoners in the House of Cor-
rection,
and they thought it quite useless to petition the
Home-office on the subject, and consequently now ap-
pealed to that House. kle (Mr.Wakley)believed that the
satement was altogether unfounded, and in his opinion no-
thing could be more unreasonable or unjust than to enter- •
tain such a belief with regard to the conduct of the Right .`
Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever his poli-
tics might be, yet with reference to these offenders he
(Mr. Wakley) believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman'
was utterly incapable of doi❑g that which he was said •
to have done; and, seeing the Hon. Member for Maid-
stone in his place, who was one of the visiting magis-
trates of the prison, he begged leave to inquire whether
there was any truth in the allegations of the petition
that special instructions had been issued from the Home-
office for the treatment of these prisoners with undue
or unreasonable severity; whether instructions had been
issued from the Home-office for treating them as felons;
whether, in fact, the statements in the petition were ge-
nerally correct; and also to state what was the actual
condition of the prisoners, and whether at the present
moment they were making any complaints to the visit-
ing justices as to the treatment they received?
Sir G. GREY said, before he answered the question of
the Hon. Gentleman, he might be allowed to advert to
that part of the petition which had reference to himself.
He should, however, state that although the petition was
written in the plural number, it was signed by one indi-
vidual only, as the chairman of a meeting, without any
reference to a meeting in that petition.
Mr. WAKLEY said it was agreed to at a public
meeting.

Sir d. GREY—With respect, however, to himself, as
having sent special instructions for the treatment of these
prisoners, he begged to give his most unqualified con-
tradiction to that statement.—(Hear.) lie had no power
to give any such special instructions, and the magistrates
would not be performing their duty if they observed
them. The prisoners were classed by the magistrates,
subject to the approval of the Secretary of State, under
Act of Parliament, and he had no authority to alter
those regulations. As to another statement in the peti-
tion, that it was useless to address the Home-office, be
could state that that was not the fact, for two of the
prisoners had addressed him, and he had referred it to
the justices, with an intimation that every statement
that was made by the prisoners should have every rea-
sonable consideration.

Mr. G. DODD could fully corroborate the statement
of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, that he had not interfered in any way
with the regulations of the House of Correction. The
memorials sent to the lionle-office by two of the Chartist
prisoners were referred to the visiting magistrates by the
Right lion. Baronet, who had stated to him that he hoped
no unnecessary restrictions would be imposed. The sen-
tences on the prisoners implied that they were to be sub-
jected to certain rules framed for all houses of correction
when Lord Normanby was in office, and had not since
been departed from. The questions put by the lion.
Member for Finsbury showed that considerable misre-
presentation had gone abroad with respect to the five
Chartist prisoners now undergoing sentence of imprison-
ment. As a visiting magistrate he had seen these per-
sons each week, and they all expressed themselves grate-
ful to the magistrates, and more particularly to the
Governor, Lieutenant Tracy, for the lenient manner in
which the regulations had been carried out. It was said
that the prisoners' hair had been cut close immediately
on their entering the prison. This was not the ease.
Ernest Jones's hair was cut about a week after his en-
trance at his own request, and by the advice of the sur-
geon, owing to the weakness of his eyes. The others
were cropped about the same time, except Vernon's,
whose hair was not cut for a fortnight, end then not after
the Dover crop, but trimmed in the same manner as any
gentleman i❑ the House would have had his done.—(A
laugh.) The prisoners all stated they had no complaint
to make with respect to their food. The dietary of the
House was a loaf of white bread weighing
nearly a pound and a half with a pint of cocoa
for breakfast, and a similar loaf and a pint of
gruel at supper. Four days in the week they had
for dinner six ounces of meat and eight ounces of
potatoes, making on these days thirty-three ounces of
solid food; on the other three days, a pint and a half of
good soup in lieu of meat. Fussell and Sharpe both
said, that if every working man lived nearly as well
there would :not be discontent in the country. They
were permitted to have books sent them (subject to the
approval of the chaplain), and when he called that morn-
ing Vernon was treading a scientific book, and Jones
working a mathematical problem.--(A laugh-) In
tact, every indulgence had jbeen given. Vernon stated
to the governor that he was accustomed to take baths,
and the governor immediately ordered he should have
them two or three times a week. The sentence upon
the prisoners made it requisite they should be put in
prison dress, and everything furnished to them was
new. The dress they wore was that of misdemeanants,
blue, different from that of felons, which was of grey
cloth with a number on the shoulder. He hoped he
had given such explanation respecting their treatment as
would satisfy the House; and if the Hon. Member for
Finsbury wished for more information he should be
happy to give it.—(Hear.)
THE CONVICT MITCHEL.
Mr. ROBINSON wished to put to the Government
some questions with respect to the treatment of the con-
vict Mitchel. Ho was induced to do so because it had
been communicated to him that Mitchel was not treated
as a convict, but, to use the expression of his informant,
who was a resident in Bermuda, rather as a state pri-
soner. He was also informed through other sources
that the convict was allowed the use of two rooms, with
a servant to wait upon him, that he was not subjected
to any kind of labour, that he wore no distinctive dress,
and that his position was better than that of many
officers in her Majesty's service in that island. Before,
however, ho put the question he would say, he had no
wish to press harshly upon that unhappy individual,
far from it ; but his object was to ascertain, what
was so important to the public, whether the law of
this country was fairly, justly, and impartially adminis-
tered.—(Hear, hear.) The first question he would put
was to the Gallant Admiral opposite, with reference to
the treatment of Mitchel on board the Scourge. It was
stated that he messed with the officers on going to Ber-
muda, but he (Mr. Robinson) was unwilling to believe
it. Ile could not think it possible, but it was publicly
stated, and believed at Bermuda, and it was important
it should be contradicted, for the honour of the naval
service and the character of the Gallant Admiral. The
question he wished to put to the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Home Secretary was, whether any orders had been
given with respect to the treatment of Mitchel at Ber
muds., and whether any communication hud been made
to the Secretary of State by the authorities at Bermuda
as to the manner in which that individual had been
treated?

Sir G. GREY believed he could answer both the ques-
tions of the Hun. Gentleman, as far as any information
was in the possession of the Government. With respect to
the first, he could say that no such information had
reached the Government, and he was certain from infor-
mation he did possess, and from the nature of the in-
struction* addressed to the captain of the ship in which
Mitchel was removed, that it was not correct. The Hon.
Gentleman would remark that Mitchel was not sent tri:
Bermuda in an ordinary convict ship, but in a
war. Special instructions were given to the rneaafn_ta-al!
from the Admiralty, directing him to take ever c
YPrl
time,
tion for the security of the prisoner, at the
while the vessel was at sea, as the prisoner
'“health, to
by the surgeon of the gaol to be in delicate
a sentry at
select a cabin for his confinement, placingcq
H Q must,
the door, where his meals were to be tanikent
to which
therefore, utterly disbelieve the statement
A letter was
the Honourable Gentleman referred. same
n stated
his attention to the
Governor of Bermuda, after
calling
report of the surgeon at
State to the
also written by the Secretary of,
ease of the prisoner, and to the_be
Spike Island
be was unfit. prisoner, and the
kind of labour for whichf t. The Govern-
ment had received no
as to thehpour:in:hag
corroborative of the
Hon. Gentleman's statement stoi:ten4the treatment of Alit-
dis etch dated the 4th of July,
contained la a P.
sess was that the d. l '
The only information they did pos-
said,
tendent Governor-askis opinion that Mitchel was auffer-
tendent stated it
ic affection of the lungs, and that he
icnhewl
haitchßetrhmeuda.
ing from a
hospital-ship. Since that information was received he
' had caused him to be received on board the Tenedos
ihad been removed from the Tenedos to another convict
hulk; but he (Sir George Grey) presumed that the state
of the convicts health had been such as to prevent his
being put to
any
kind of hard labour, as convicts usually
wre.
Sir D. NORREYS said that in consequence of the
statement made by the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell)
that the Government proposed taking upon itself the re-
sponsibility of relieving the distress in Ireland, should
occasion require it, he should best discharge his duty
by withdrawing his motion, which stood on the paper
for that night.
___

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
The House was informed that their Lordships had
agreed to the following Bills:—Stock in Trace Ex-
emption—Out Ponsioners—Parochial Debt and Audit—
Fisheries (Ireland), without amendment—and to amend-
ments mace to Payment of Debts out of Real Estate,
without amendment—Edinburgh and Glasgow and Edin-
burgh and Bathgate Railway Companies Amendment—
Boroughs Incorporation—Farmers' Estate Society (Ire-
land), with amendments.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS.

Mr. HUME gave notice, that as soon as Parliament
met next session he should move a resolution to droll!
effect that, whenever bribery was proved to have been•) f,
committed at an election for Members of Parliament,'
the House would order that both the persons giving, and
the persons receiving the bribes, be prosecuted by her
Majesty's Attorney-General.
MAURITIUS.
In answer to a question by Lord G. BENTINCK,
Mr. lIAWES stated that he had found that the Go-
vornor of the Mauritius was authorised .to appoint Mr.
Tier to the office of Auditor-General in June, 1846. The
salary of Mr. Kompsey, the lute Auditor-General, -was

.. ~',>

1,2501. a year, and, as he had stated yesterday, his re- their pauperism, they exercised an influence against
tirement took place solely on the ground of ill health. this empire ten times greater than they could have ex-
The Treasury had awarded him the full amount of pen- erted within its limits.—(Hear, hear.) Those particu-
sion which they had power to award, namely, 800/., but Jar instances, besides those general reasons which might
not, as he had stated yesterday, by mistake, his full be urged, all tended to show that either the Government
salary. He might be allowed to add, that before Mr. or the people of Ireland had been greatly at fault. He
Ker was appointed to the office of Auditor-General he would admitlthat both had been at fault. He thought
was Assistant auditor-General, and stood next in rota Government had been too negligent of Ireland—though
Sion for the appointment. certainly greater solicitude had never been shown for
In answer to a question by Lord G. BENTINCK, its welfare by any other Government than the present—
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that but by all Governments Ireland had been too negli-
the Copper and Lead Duties Bill and the Spirits Bill gently dealt with ; and, though the people of Ireland
Would be taken at five o'clock on Monday. did not, perhaps, possess some of the qualities which
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then characterized the industrious inhabitants of this island,
moved the order of the day for going into aCommittee they, nevertheless, exhibited many high and generous
of Ways and Means. characteristics. They ought not to despair that the
EMPLOYMENT OF THE POOR IN IRELAND. time would come when the population of Ireland would
Mr. P. SCROPE rose to move " That no further ap- be on a par with the population of this island. Ireland
propriation of moneys taken from general taxation be had been described as the difficulty of all Governments;
made in aid of the poor-rate of Irish unions except on the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tam-
condition-1. That it be expended on the productive worth had acknowledged that it was his chief diffi-
employment of the able-bodied poor. 2. That repay- culty. But the difficulty of remedying the evils of Ire-
ment be secured by a lien on the property improved by land would not be so great as the difficulty which would
the works, as well as on the rateable property of the yet arise if they were not remedied. Some causes of the
union." He complained that the Poor-law Commis- existing difficulty might be found partly in the consti-
sioners employed the poor in stone-breaking, which was tution of the general Government and partly in the local
an unproductive occupation, and refused the request administration. The Government in this House and
which had been made to them by several boards of the other was almost entirely an aristocratic Govern-
guardians that the able-bodied paupers might be em- ment. On the Treasury bench aristocracy was supreme.
ployed in productive labour on the land. There was no Seven Members, being one-half of the Cabinet, sat in
difficult.? in finding employment for productive labour in the House of Lords, and every other Member of the
Ireland, and experience had shown, according to the Cabinet was either " Lord "by title or connected with
statement of Dr. Harrison, that the able-bodied poor the peerage. In Parliament, it might be, 14 better men
might be most successfujily engaged in reclaiming waste could not be found; but, looking to human nature as
land. What could be more demoralizing than feeding generally exhibited, it was not to be expected that 14
men in a state of perfect idleness ? If any public gentlemen so circumstanced could meet round the coun-
money was to be contributed out of the hard earnings of dil-table and discuss with an unbiassed mind the guess
the people of this count's, in aid of the poor-rates of Lion of Ireland as it presented itself to the country and
some of the Irish unions, he contended that it ought to to the world. The condition of Ireland required two
be spent in such a manner as would be productive of kinds of remedies;—the one political, and the other so-
some profit, so as to afford some chance of the money cial. It was hard to say where the one question left off, and
being repaid. It would be unjust to the English public the other began. At present, the people throughout three-
if some condition of this kind did not attach to the loan fourths of Ireland had a total unbelief in the honesty and
of English money. integrity of this Government as regarded its govern-
Sir W. SOaERVLLLE thought the Hon. Gentleman ment of Ireland. There ought to be some great mes-
hed very unfrtii)y thrown blame on the Poor-law Com- sure or measures, which being offered to the people of
missioners for not doing that which the law did not em- Ireland, would afford a complete demonstration that
power them to do. He complained that the able-bodied bygones should be bygones as respected the conduct of
paupers were not provided for by the Poor-law Corn- the British Government, and that henceforth an equal
missioners, and kept in employment. Now, it was system as between the two countries must be adopted.
enough, to say that the law absolutely prohibited the So great was his belief of the necessity of those mea-
Coramtssioners from giving relief in the way the Hon. sures, and his confidence in the excellent results which
Gentleman proposed. The law might be right or would be attained if they were adopted, that he would
wrong; but unquestionably it prohibited the able-bodied venture to explain them again. Ireland had been a
being relieved except in the workhouse. He entirely country of jars and turmoils beyond the memory of any
differed from the Hon. Gentleman in the view he took man living, owing chiefly to religious dissensions. They
of the question. He did not think that the employment governed it on that point in a manner totally unkndwn
of pauper labourers on what the Hon. Gentleman called in England and Scotland. If they were to govern
" reproductive works" would be attended with success; England and Scotland as they now governed Ireland—
he did not think they would be reproductive works at if they maintained ecclesiastical establishments in the
all. The Hon. Gentleman did not say what those re- sister kingdoms as they maintained an ecclesiastical es-
productive works ought to he. He merely quoted from tablishment in Ireland, they ought to establish Prelacy
Alison's pamphlet on that part of the question. Now, in Scotland and Catholicism in England. And if 'they
the essence of Dr. Alison's plan was, that forcible pos- were to try the experiment in either case, it
session should be taken of waste lands; but it was im- would not be a sham but a real insurrection
possible the Poor-law Commissioners could do this, as they would provoke. They must have equality be.
no such compulsory powers were given them. He be- tween the great religious sects of Ireland—between
lieved that if such a plan as that proposed by the Hon. Protestant and Catholics. On political grounds they
Gentleman was carried out, they would turn the whole could not defer bringing about that equality. It was
country into one mass of pauperism; and he therefore said her Majesty's Government had the intention, if
hoped that the propositions submitted by the Hon. they could find the people of England napping, to pro-
Member would not receive the sanction of the House. pose that the Roman Catholic priests should be paid. On
Lord G. BENTINCK said, the report of the Commis- two grounds he objected to that proposition; first, be-
sioners of Public Works in Ireland contained a complete cause he did not think Parliament could, from any funds
refutation ;cst' the crotchets put 'forward by the Hon, it might obtain, contrive to place the Roman Catholic
Member for Stroud, and showed that it was impossible priests on an equality with the Protestant clergy of
to carry out the reclamation of waste lands in the manner Ireland. And if they, could not produce that equality,
he proposed. The report, however, gave, on the other 'the experiment was not worth attempting. It would be
hand, much encouragement to the House to grant loans infinitely more easy, infinitely more in accordance with
to Irish proprietors for the improvement of their estates. the principles of political truth and with the real into-
Tbe Commissioners showed that great advantages had rests of Ireland, to withdraw the existing establishment
followed the drainage and other works, and that they from the position it now occupied, to withdraw so
anticipated no difficulty in a gradual repayment of the much of its funds the present application of which
expenditure in half-yearly instalments. could be proved to be totally unnecessary with refe-
Mr. lIUME thought the portions of the report to rence to the wants of the people. He did not say they
which the Noble Lord had referred were in favour of the were to withdraw every sixpence from the establish-
propositions of the Hon. Member for Stroud. He con- ment, but they ought to withdraw it from all con-
curred in the principles laid down by the Hon. Gentle- nexion with the state, and appropriate the funds they
man, and he thought the House was obliged to him for received to some general purpose,—for giving educe-
calling their attention to the way in which future pay- tion, it might be, under a system such as now existed.
mews for worlis in Ireland ought to be made. Ho was That appropriation would lead to an entire change
clearly in favour of a system by which able-bodied pau- of feeling among the people. With respect to the
spent should be relieved by means of labour, provided that Parliamentary representation of Ireland, he must say,
labour was of a productive character; and he did not see, after having spent;seventy-three days in a most wearisome
therefore, why the proposal of the Hon. Gentleman should examination involving that question, that the represeata-
not be agreed to by the House. tion of Ireland was at this moment a fraud. It would
Lord J. RUSSELL—I think I can agree generally be better if there were no representation. The rates
with the principles laid down on this subject by the Hon. and taxes to be paid as a condition of exercising the
Member for Montrose, but Ido not go along with him franchise were so numerous, that it was utterly impos-
in thinking that the view which he has so far corn- sible a constituency could b. maintained, and the honest
mended is at one with the object which my Honourable real opinions .of the intelligent classes of Ireland find a
Friend the Member for Stroud has proposed. It may decent representation in the Imperial Parliament. The
be very useful to advance money from the State on par. system of registration was disgraceful. The questions
ticular occasions, with the view of getting work exe- of religious equality and of the representation must
cuted for the improvement of estates, and that is what both be discussed next session. Political remedies, it

the Noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck) referred to as
having been done under the Land Improvement Act. In
a case of that kind a loan is advanced to the proprietor,
and the Board of Works sees that the particular work is
executed; but the work is executed by the ordinary
means of giving due wages to those who are employed,
viz., the able-bodied labourers, who, in return for those
wages, perform the work given to them to do. In that
way property may be much improved; a fair return may
be obtained for the money expended ; employment is
given; and the whole result of such money being ad-
vanced is very beneficial to all parties. There is another
mode in which the State may be called on to assist, and
that is the mode in which relief is afforded in this coun-

was true, would not feed the hungry, but it would give
an assurance to Ireland that it would be trusted as a por-
tion of the United Kingdom. They would throw oil on
the water. With respect to the social evils of Ireland,
they arose from the way in which the land was owned,
held, and cultivated. There were large tracts in Ireland,
which, if left in the hands of their present possessors
till the end of the world, would never support the
population they ought to support. The true solution of
the problem was to get the lands out of the hands of
those men who were nominal, but not real possessors.
Then the effects of the law of entail and the custom of
primogeniture were not mitigated by counteracting in.
fluences, as in England and Scotland. Were he com-

try in a time of great distress and destitution. In those
periods when there are a great many destitute poor
those destitute poor are allowed a certain amount of re-
lief ; and in order to obtain proof that those persons are
really destitao, and that they would not come for relief
if they could find employment elsewhere, some work
which is of an irksome kind is given them to do—the
work being of value, as a proof that they are persons to
whom relief should be afforded That is the way in
which we spend several millions a year in this country
for the relief of destitution. Now both these things
may be exceedingly right to be undertaken, and both
have their separate uses. But if we attempt to combine
these two things—if you say you will employ all the
paupers iron district, and, at the same time, undertake
usetul works, by means of which regular wages will be
earned, you are just doing the very thing to which the
Hon.. Member for Montrose objects; because he says,
and says truly, that if the Government undertake works
and employs labour, it interferes with the labour mar-
ket, and therefore the whole result is very unsatisfactory.
—(Hear, hear.) I agree with him in that respect. If
you say these persons are destitute, and therefore you
must employ them, you will find that their labour is
not worth that which it pretends to be worth, and
that you are paying them money in the way of wages
while you are not getting work equal to the amount of
those wages. On the other hand, you find a number of
persons coming to these public works who are not really
destitute, and to whom you would not otherwise think
of affording relief.—(Hear, hear.) There are, however,
as I have said, two courses, both of which may be ne-
cessary. The one is, to advance money to proprietors,
to be laid out in labour for the improvement of their es-
tates; and the other is, that in cases of extreme destitu-
tion you afford relief for the purpose of preventing the
misery that may be induced. But when you attempt to
combine them, as the Hon. Member for Stroud attempts
to do, you will inevitably fall into an error that cannot
fail to be prejudicial.—(Hear, hear.) I believe the Hon.
Member for Montrose, and I perfectly agree in these
propositions; but then these are not the objects sought
for by the Hon. Member for Stroud. I have only
to say that I do not think it would be safe to adopt
the proposal of the Honourable Member, as it would, I
am afraid, lead to some highly injurious modes of pro.
ceeding with reference to Ireland.
After a few words from Mr. P. SCROPE in explana-
tion,
Mr. BRIGHT thought that, as the present was in all
probability the last opportunity which would be afforded
this sessiou of referring to the state of Ireland, a short
time might be very usefully employed in considering that
important subject. A more convenient time could
hardly be chosen for throwing out suggestions with re-
ference to Ireland, seeing the Ministry had some months
of leisure before them, which, no doubt, they would wish
to employ in considering what course it would be their
duty to pursue, and especially as he understood the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government was about to pay
a visit to Ireland for the purpose of getting more infor-
mation than he now possessed as to the mournful con-
dition of that unhappy country.—(Hear, hear.) It was
admitted by all that the condition of Ireland was worse
now than it had ever been ; and, so far as they could see
at present, there was no prospect that they would find
that country under different circumstances for a long
time to come, unless some new path was struck out
by which the people would be enabled to secure for
themselves comfort and independence. One prominent
consequence of the miserable state of matters in Ireland
+was the effect which it was every day producing on cer-
tain districts of this country.—(Hear, hear.) They had
seen attempted disturbances and disaffection of an ex-
ceedingly unpleasant character manifested here and there
in England. Now, if they took Lancashire, they would
fiva that it exhibited in many respects the results flowing
irotn a large importation of the unhappy population of
Ireland. In Liverpool, Manchester, and all the large
,ocr as, there were great numbers of Irish residents ; in-
I d, in every one of them there was what was called an
" Irish quarter fila'atudhe spoke from personal knowledge
when he said,
respectable,and thoagh many of them were steady,
industrious,i yet a large portion of them
were the opposite of
country all those vices' that had
; that they brought to this
epreoditt had so long prevailed in Ire-
land, and that they influences of a character very
sel unfavourablei.asgoiewell
ltlhoeonndantinvten
conducted, which was of it
0,0 and industrious, as that of
any other part of the kin
h. ear.) It was
found that crime and violence prevailed in Lancashire
nonnt,ibttoutd that those crimes
and Yorkshire to a great
and outrages were chiefly
i. they found it
therebY parsons who
Lail come over from Ireland, because
saite.—(Hear.
dernee)
impossible to find the means of
ane was, the
d t
Another most important point to be cost:
wherever an Irishman planted his foot, no
matter in what
part of the world it was, there he stood an enemy—a
bitter, implacable enemy—of this country.—(H
In the United States of America there were
either of actual Irish or persons. of Irish descent; and in
that country they exercised an important influence in the
elections of the representatives in Congress and also of
the first officer of the American Government... If ever
there came a time when questions of a cynical. nature
arose between Great Britain and the United States, it
was certain that those Irish would throw all the weight
of their influence and clamour into the scale, so that the
peace betwixt the two countries should be disturbed.—
(Hear.) Through the misdoings of the Government of
Ireland, or by the misdoings of the population of Ire-
land
.themselves, these people had been transplanted to
America, and there, 3,000 miles off, having got rid of

missioned to propose an arrangement on the subject, he
would establish a court especially for the purpose of ad-
judicating on matters of title and of preparing certain
forms of conveyance, which should render the transfer
of landed property as short a process as the transfer of
railway stock. The state of Ireland had long been
matter of reproach ; some Hon. Members had grown
from boy to man, and still the reproach was the same;
the condition of Ireland was most disgraceful to this
country and Government. It was theirs to think of
Ireland as if it were one of their own counties, to think
of the numbers who had died of starvation, exceed-
ing the numbers that had ever at any time fallen by
the sword in battle, to think of the countless horrors
which were even now growing up in that country, and
to see whether it could not be brought under the opera-
tion of those laws and principles by which nature in-
tended that nations and individuals should become pro-
vident and industrious. He did net want to puff any
nostrums of his own, though he was supposed to cherish
some peculiar notions with respect to the constitution of
the country; but whether it advanced democracy or
aristocracy, or any other system whatsoever, he would
fling to the winds any prejudice, it he had it, or any
principle almost, if he were not convinced of its sound-
ness, could he thereby do one single thing to hasten by
one single day the time when Ireland might be made
equal to England in the attainment of. that comfort and
independence which an industrious people might pos-
sess, and be believed would have, if the Government
were only just.--(Cheers.)
Mr. BROTHERTON thought it was far easier to find
fault, describe evils, and prescribe remedies, than to
carry them out. He would introduce a property tax into
Ireland, and have its produce appropriated for the benefit
of that country.
Mr. LABOUCHERE suggested that the House
should consent to give his Right Hon. Friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer an opportunity of making his
financial statement in Committee, before they entered
further on a discussion involving so great a variety of
considerations as that which had arisen with respect to
the state of Ireland.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL felt it his duty to make some
remarks on the subject now before the House, when he
bore in mind the fearful prospects for Ireland in the
coming winter.
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the Hon . Gentleman would
not persevere. If he allowed the House to go into Com-
mittee of Ways and Means, it would afford his Right
Hon. Friend an opportunity of making his financial
statement, in which he must take occasion to advert to
the subject of Ireland.
THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT.
The House then went into Committee of Ways and
Means, Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who
was frequently inaudible, then rose and said,—l am
afraid, after the debate on the state of Ireland, the sub-
ject I am about to introduce, although of more general
importance, will not excite so much interest, especially
among Members connected with that country. Never-
theless, it is requisite, for many reasons, that the state-
ment I am about to make should be made to night; be-
cause, according to the the forms of the House, we can-
not go into Committee of Ways. and Means on Saturday,
and it would materially impede the progress of public
business if I were not allowed to make my financial
statement before the close of the week. This was the
only reason why my Noble Friend suggested the pro-
priety of going into Committee of Ways and
Means without further delay, and not in the
slightest degree because we were insensible to
the importance of the debate, or were unprepared
to give our best attention to the condition of Ire-
land. Having stated this much, which I hope will
satisfy the gentlemen from Ireland that really good reasons
existed for the course my Noble Friend has taken in cutting
short the debate, I will at once turn tot ie mportant subject
of the Committee of Ways and Means; s nd, first of all, I
will state what is the financial condition of. he country and
the means which the Government have adopted and will
adopt in that respect. In doing so lam aware I shall not
have much that is new to state to the Committee, for, in the
first place, the whole of the estimates have been voted ; the known to the
amount of expenditure was perfectly well
House. At the beginning of the session, and at various
other periods, statements were made which put the House in
possession of then precise state of affairs. But, although
I have not much to state that may be novel, it is desirable
that I should place before the Committee, M one view, the
result of the operations of the session—what the expendi-
ture will amount to, what we expect the income to be,
and how I propose to make the income equal to the expen-
diture. This I am anxious to do as clearly, as accurately,
and as concisely as possible. Gentlemen will probably re-
member that when my Noble Friend made his statement
early in the session the prospects which he held out to the
at 51,950,0001. ;
country were as follows. He estimated the probable receipts
he stated the debt and other charges on the
consolidated fund at 31,280,6001.; he took the current ex-
penditure as exhibited in the estimates at 21,820,4414 mak-
pdrecdituereibnelonging to the year of 53,101,0411. He
i! nt
mates in tha an eeni
ount of expenditure which had been incurred
on account
of the Kafir war and the excess of naval esti-
-54446,452/. ;
year at 1,345,41 M, making altogether
and he intimated the intention of the Govern-
ment to make a further development of the militia forces.
moulaking the expend
54,5943,4521.t0 meet this expenditure the pif
In orderytaearraisaseththene pinroepaomseed.
trde of
wasth occa&ion
an
expense
of 150,0001.
posal of the Government