The Sun.
London, England, 1848-06-03 00:00:00

POOR-LAW RETURNS.

Mr. CLEMENTS moved for returns of each poor-
law union in Ireland, specifying the name of each
electoral division, and the valuation thereof ; the total
amount per pound on the valuation of the rates made
for each such division during the year ended the 25th
day of March, 1848 ; the amount to be collected by
such rates (not including previous arrears) ; and
the amount actually collected (including previous
arrears) to the 25th day of March, 1848 ; of
each poor-law union in Ireland, specifying the liabili-
ties of such union, on the 25th day of March, 1847; the
expenses of the year ended the 25th day of March, 1848;
the total expenses and liabilities; the amount in the
treasurer's hands on the 25th day of March, 1847 ;`:the
amount actually collected during the year ended the 25th
day of March, 1848; the amount received from all other
sources during the year ended the 2ith day of March
1848 ; the amount available for expenses and liabilities
during the year ended the 25th day of March 1848 ;
the excess of assets over liabilities ; the exeess of
liabilities over assets ; the amount of rates uncollected
on the 25th day of March, 1848; and, of each county,
county of a city, and county of a town in 'reified,
specifying the name of each barony or half
barony, and the poor-law valuation thereof ;
the present half-yearly liabilities of each such barony
or half-barony, or of the county at large, for repay-
ment of any advances from the Treasury (except under
the Temporary Relief Act of 1847), during the years
1845, 1846, and 1847, distinguishing the Acts under
which the advances were made, the total amount of such
liabilities, and the rate per pound on the valuation.
Agreed to.
AMALGAMATED RAILWAYS.

Mr. DODD moved that there be laid before the
House maps, showing the amalgamation of railways,
the existing lines, and those in progress, for Great
Britain and Ireland.—Agreed to.
VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.

Mr. C. ANSTEY, seeing the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies in his
place, wished to ask him, whether he had any objec-
tion to lay upon the table of the House the dispatches
which had been received from the Lieutenant-Governor
of Van Diemen's Land, in reference to the dismissal of
one of the judges of that colony, and the proceedings
which were being taken in reference to the dismissal of
another, and whether he had any objection to state now
whether Government intended to take steps to secure
the restoration to office of these two functionaries?

Mr. HAWES said the dispatches had only just been
received, and as they had not yet been perused by the
Secretary of State, he trusted the Hon. and Learned
Member would allow his question to stand over fur a
day or two.
Mr. C. ANSTEY gave notice that on Tuesday next
he would move for the production of the papers.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion of Sir G. GREY, it:was resolved that
I the House at its rising should adjourn till Monday.
NAVIGATION-LAWS—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the question being put for resuming the adjourned
debate,

Mr. GLADSTONE rose to request the indulgence
of the House while he endeavoured to lay before them
the view he was inclined to take of this important and
by no means uninteresting question. He could assure
them that he should refrain entirely from troubling them
with figures and particular details, for enough had been
done and no doubt would be done by other gentlemen
in that way, and he should confine himself to the
grounds upon which he had arrived at the opinion he
now entertained upon this subject.—(Hear, hear.) The
question at present under consideration was not exactly
whether they considered the plan of the Government in
all its details, or even in its view, to be the best plan that
could-possibly be adopted, but the real question for them
to consider was involved in the motion of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Stamford, namely, as to whether
they were prepared at this time to make an extensive
change not only in the details but in the principle of the
navigation-laws. He was afraid that many who read the
motion of his Hon. Friend had no difficulty in giving it
such a construction as to make it mean something equiva-
lent to nothing, because many said that no inconvenience
had been proved as attending the navigationelaws, and
that they could not be altered in any particular
without endangering our maritime interests. He, however,
had understood his description of the principles of the
navigation-laws to be equally clear and succinct. He un-
derstood him to say that the principle of these laws, as
regarded our domestic and colonial trade, was to secure
an absolute and exclusive right to British shipowners ;
and with respect to our foreign trade that the shipowners
of different nations were entitled to a reciprocity of deal-
ine' ; and that the navigation-laws in thatlatter sense ought
to be altered, and that the present was the mast season-
able time to make such alteration. In his (Mr. Glad-
stone's) opinion, there never was an instance when the
proof was more distinct that they ought to legislate than
at the present moment. From the attitude assumed
by foreign states, it was absolutely necessary for
them to decide finally whether they should continue in
substance their present commercial code, or whether
they should proceed upon a different basis. His Hon.
Friend had spoken of Prussia in slighting terms, but he
begged to say that we carried on no more important
trade with any country in the world than we did
with Prussia, and that her commercial power was of the
first class in a question of that description, and ought to
be dealt justly with by this country. The menace
which she uttered against us was perfectly fair and
equitable, because she gave us an opportunity of
knowing, in the event of our not relaxing our commercia
laws, what her real intentions were. It had been stated
that because the colonies failed to deluge the House with
petitions for an alteration in the laws there was no ur-
gent necessity, so far as regarded those colonies, of taking
them into consideration at the present time.—(Hear.)
If they did not hear of the grievances of the colonies in
the form of petitions to the House, or in any other
way, they might depend upon it hat the time was
notfar distant when they would speak in a language
that would not
no h
uld not be misunderstood.—(Loud cheers.)
Look thecasefit case ofrfomththee
pAroutsetertailviaenlawcso.lonTiheso—se
laws compelled the
they
deriveden
grower to send his wool to this country
at a greatdisadvantage, whilst the wool of Germany, which
had to come but one-fourth the distance, was unduly
favoured.
The
Australian
ians
m
seships
hy
which wool Brower
anxiousgrower to send h
was compelled
send
i
to e
his
wool leave the port of
the copper
in ballast, and
on the same principle th
Cuba could be conveyedieih copper of Chili and
without those restrictions to
which the Australian wool
prod
msaimghet mbeigbhrtoubgehstaiidntoof the market produce
was subject. The
ur
marker at a ofe jca.hmeaaipeear. ratlet,
but the possessor was liable to h
competitors who possessed those advantmagjeufedwhibcyh
were denied to him. The Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Stamford said he was ready to make all the
foreign
trade of the country a matter of negotiation; 11, was
ready, for instance, to allow the planter of Cuba the
power of sending sugar in American vessels to this
country; but he insisted that with respect to Jamaica
the practice which existed should continue; he was
laa n advantagest
e r in
wprheipeahrhede
wtoasgpivreeptaoretdhetopdlaenntyertoofthCeupb
Ja-
maica. But this was the time of
for all others
had, for the
repeal of the navigation-laws,
than
recent commercial legislation, done more we could
weby our
po t
trade
daegaionfinthae
by period to
increasing stimulateu
o ther shippingt
and consequently to find avenues to employment
country,
which did not before exist. The noblemen and gentle.
men of England opposed the repeal of the navigation-
laws, because they believed such a coarse would have the
effect of impairing the utility of the maritime power
of the country—(Cheers)—and if he could bring himself
to entertain a similar opinion he should oppose the Bill.
He could not go the length of agreeing in the
mighty flight of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Manchester, because he believed when the benign con-
tagion of increasing commerce spread its way through-
out the world that the abrogation of these laws would
be found one of the most salutary measures that
the House had ever adopted.—(Hear, hear.) It
could not be said that their repeal would destroy the
maritime power of the country. By a recent statement
of the Colonial Secretary, it appeared that in 1792,
when the war broke out, that the naval force of the
country consisted of from 16,000 to 18,000 men. The
mercantile navy then consisted of 1,500,000 men ; now
it was somewhere about 4,000,000. The real question
was, what would be the mercantile effect of removing or
continuing the navigation-laws. Would the repeal
of the navigation-laws give an impetus to the ata-

rine, or would it dwindle it down to nothing? He
believed that the effect of a judicious alteration in the
navigation-laws would be to strengthen the commerce
toa fendnar ? Theavigation Danethe
and thecountry.
SwedehadWho? Certainly
the country
not. It was said that the country had great ground
to fear them, because they could get cheap seamen
and cheap ships ; but if there was any ground for
fearing them, how came it they had not been
driven out of the trade of the world ?—(Hear, hear.)
The Americans victualled and manned their ships
at far greater expense than this country did, but they
did not fear either the Dane or the Swede. The
truth was that it was not the cheap country,
but the dear one they had to fear—they
had to fear the country that had capital, and not
that which had not. It would not be fair or right
to assume that this measure involved a censure
upon British seamen. He believed that the abi-
lities and the knowledge of seamen in their profession
would be brought to a much higher point by a less
restrictive mode of competition. On several grounds,
therefore, he could not hesitate in saying that
the time had now come when they ought to
have an extensive alteration in the navigation-laws,
and he had only to state to the House what appeared to
him to be the character of the measure now before the
House. HBe
oedi
luilsncpt co
hinseeal
sddd,
and
thboaeveme:
make
krwee,i shed that the spirit
conditionali this—thatn
fact,
rt
ehaecd
concessions
oeosyseeni
echo
hn os-
omwfietnhttohwteheerre
the words of Mr. Bancroft, the American Minister, when
he said, "We shall do what you do—if you do much we
will do much—if you do all, we will do all." He was of
opinion that the fears of British shipowners
as to a freer intercourse with other countries
had been greatly overrated, and that in reality
very little difference would result to them if
the navigation-laws were altered. He could wish that
there were, with America on the one hand and the
Baltic on the other, a free and unconditional intercourse.
He was aware that the very name of "reciprocity
treaties" was unpopular, but that arose from the unjust
prejudice which had been created by the universal and
unequivocal failure of all attempts to contract engage-
ments of reciprocity with regard to the Customs Acts.
But that prejudice ought not to attach to the present case,
which was wholly different from that of the Customs Act.
He contended that the two subjects were widely different.
Holland, for instance, was, in its policy, liberal in
.re-
spect to the customs duties—not so as regarded its nay.
gation-laws; and France, Spain, and the Italian sta..
had considerable apprehensions that great mischief would
be done, and great scope be opened to the selfish views
which prevailed in some countries, by the exclusion of their
ships from many trades by the operation of double du-
ties. He, therefore, thought it would have been advan-
tageous to pursue the course of reciprocity treaties in
the present instance. He said this because the measure
propounded by the Government was not lunconditional,
inasmuch as it reserved to the Queen in Council the
power of retaliation.—(Hear, hear.) This discretionary
power, he owned, was to him highly objectionable; and,
though he was aware similar powers had before been re-
served, they had never been of so important and exten-
sive a character. True, in the Corn Bill a similar
power was retained, but it was regarded as a mere
brutum fulmen which would not be resorted to. He,
therefore, did not form a precedentlfrom this case, and
he thought the House ought to know whether the power
was proposed to be dormant, or to be actively exercised
against such countries as did not reciprocate with Great
Britain. There ought to be given an explicit pledge on
this part of the subject.—(Hear.) The other points on
which he differed from the proposition of her Majesty's
Government were with respect to the restrictions they
still proposed to retain. It was impossible to pass a
sweeping measure of this kind, and still retain the re-
striction on the shipowners which compelled them to
man their ships with three-fourths British seamen. An-
other restriction proposed to be retained was that which
referred to the British fisheries; but the most important
of all was the maintenance of the restriction with regard
to the coasting trade. He did not see why the coasting
trade should not be dealt with in the same way as the
colonial trade. In his opinion the retention of the re-
strictions on the coasting trade, while it would be of no
value to the British shipowner, would have the effect of
materially restricting the advantages which all were
anxious he should obtain in the coasting trade of other
countries, and especially with reference to that of Ame-
rica. It would be of immense advantage to the shipping
of this country to be admitted to the coasting trade of
America.
An Host. MEMBER—If we can get it.
Mr. GLADSTONE (in continuation)—Why, Mr.
Bancroft had declared, " If you will do all, we will do
all ;" and that word " all " he (Mr. Gladstone) took to
include the coasting trade.—(Hear, hear.) Though
America was to be admitted to the colonial trade, they
were to be refused a participation in the coasting trade
of this country. Now he did not think that any Hon.
Member, even in his immediate neighbourhood, enter-
tained the belief that if the coasting trade was opened
to America, any vessel with the flag of the stars and
stripes would ever engage in it.—(Hear, hear.)
Practically it would be an idle and an empty
permission. We had a coasting and a colonial
trade. America had no colonies, but had a coasting trade
eqaivalent to a colonial trade ; and with our connexions
in North America and the West Indies, to the north
and south of the United States, we were in a posi-
tion to take a very beneficial part in that trade.
America was ready to give us all we gave her. If we
gave her the coasting trade, we were entitled to ask for
her coasting trade; but by giving her our colonial trade
only, we withheld what was worthless, but which would
enable her to refuse valuable concessions to us because
we had not given up all.—(Hear, hear.) He cordially
concurred in the general principle of the relaxation of
the navigation-laws; he was sincerely desirous to give
effective support to this measure, and should be sorry to
take any step to injure it. On the other hand, he hoped
that Ministers would not feel themselves precluded from
accepting any suggestions which upon discussion they
might consider an improvement.—(Hear, hear.) With
regard to the general principles, he never felt
more certain of their soundness, of their applicability
to the case in hand, or that the time had come
which was marked out for their application. A
petition presented the previous day from merchants,
&c., in the City, declared that this was the last
moment for touching the navigation-laws ; he
much wondered to what class of considerations
these gentlemen could have applied their minds; for
whether he looked at the aspect of affairs on the conti-
nent, the position now assumed by Prussia, or the steps
taken by the United States, he never remembered a
great question where the preliminary consideration of
time had been so determinedly settled aad pointed out
by the concurrence of important circumstances.—(Hear,
hear.) In one sense, certainly, it might be true that this
was the last moment for touching the navigation-laws;
for if the question were postponed a year or two the
opportunity of considering it might be for ever lost.—
(Hear.) For whenever we had endeavoured to plead
the relaxation of our commercial code as an argument
with other countries, we had always been met with the
observation that that argument came too late from us,
for that we had always clung to our restrictions as long as
we could, and had only surrendered them under the pres-
sure of overpowering necessity. Considering what was the
avowed intention of one great maritime power, and observ-
ing that the course of political change on the continent was
not favourable to commercial freedom, he feared that if we
refused to close with the fair offer, though made in an
unfriendly form, by Prussia, this might really be the
last moment for considering the navigation-laws.--
(Hear, hear.) Much sympathy had been expressed for
the British shipowner. Did he alone fear the competi-
tion of foreigners? Did ha labour under greater disad-
vantages in this respect than other interests from whom
protection had been removed? Did not all trades pay
higher wages, and buy their materials dearer, than the
same trades in other countries? Yet these classes were
able, not only to hold up their heads in the general
competition of commerce, but to take the lead in the
race.—(Hear.) So would it be with the shipowner.
He had the same advantages as other trades—in some re-
spects greater. He had in his favour the unparalleled
cheapness of capital, the enormous trade of this country,
which being the chief home of trade, and also his
home, his employment lay almost at his door, while
his foreign competitors would have to seek it at a dis-
tance. He had the immense commercial connexion of
this country, and the high commercial character it
bore, which possessed a pecuniary as well as a moral
value. Besides that, he had the geographical position
of the country, so admirably placed between the centres
of trade in the old world and the new, so that their
trade must of necessity pass England. He had wha

was more than all these, the maritime genius of the
nation, the bold and enterprising disposition which
made an Englishman feel himself at home upon the
wave, that power which characterised us beyond all
nations:of the globe, and which made it true of British
navigators and merchants that the whole world was
their home.—(Cheers.) With these advantages he
surely ought not to dread the permanent and general
effects of any competition into which he might be called
to enter. Former fears had been tested by experience,
and proved to be wholly unfounded. It was said that
the reciprocity treaties would ruin the country; multi-
tudes of calamities had been predicted to result there-
from; and yet it was now said the state of things was so
satisfactory that on no account should it be interfered
with.--(Hear, hear.) Taking, therefore, not theory,
butou t
applyingpast
their etahopewena rnience, for their guide, let them not hesi-
tate to adopt the change proposed in its main principles;
and adopting these principles boldly and honestly, and
firermsullyts,. welf mniogwh,t raenldy on
withouttheir ftheworkingurr
delay, we sanctioned the principle of freedom of naviga-
tion, we might expect our example to have a powerful
influence. on foreign countries; for we had already the
Ahrmstefrriticaitscoonfetubrarterdeisnulateitntinthgetihe nviteaxtai:plgei,vietnwtoould b
us by
so great a power as America. And when England and
difficult indeed for other nations to resist it; they would
be drawn into compliance by moral ties, and considera-
tions of expediency as well. The ocean, the great high-
way of nations, would become as free for the ships of all
as the winds that swept over its bosom; and England
would thus achieve another triumph, and add another
contribution to the general prosperity of all nations.
Mr. HUDSON said he had the honour to represent
a borough where the largest amount of ship building
was carried on of any. place in the kingdom, and where
25,000 out of 70,000 inhabitants were employed in it ;
and on this account he felt bound to express his views
on this important question. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man who had last spoken had disapproved of almost
Hon.
Member Right on.
Mm ber
fo
hra dS tatm or d. 601 I
every part of the Government measure—to carry out
his own views,
l°thigeratrt)ll e w
Ti ehe s o th e
Hon.
fact that the low-priced
vessels built in our colonies were dearer than those
Gentlemane
built at home. This was perfectly true; but, when he
alluded himf
t—
the Prussian ports, the case would be very different.
had to compete with the ship-builders of Dantzic and
At present the trade from Russia was carried on with

English ships; but very soon it would be found more
convenient to transfer British skill in ship-building to
the place where the materials existed, than to bring the
materials here to be wrought up. The ship-builder
of Sunderland stated that he was subject ;to charges
from which the foreign ship-builders were exempt, equi-
valent to not less than 2/. 10s. per ton. It was true that
the shipping of this country had been highly prosperous
during the last year ; but from a return of the ships
entering the port of Sunderland for ten years, since the
passing of the reciprocity treaties, he found that the
number of ships from Sweden, Norway, Prussia, and
Hanover, greatly exceeded the number of British ships
—the latter being 95, while the former was 350.—(Hear.)
Should the proposed measure pass into law, the ship-
building trade would, in a great measure, leave this
country ; at Sunderland, about 13,000 hands would be
thrown out of employ ; and already there was quite a
stagnation of the trade, owing to the uncertainty which
prevailed as to this measure. Hon. Gentlemen opposite
said, that having adopted free-trade measures we must
progress ; but he was a bold man who could hold that
language. Look at the state of the working classes in
the manufacturing districts, and the country generally. If
such was the effect of free-trade measures, the sooner we
reverted to protective measures the better. In the West
Indies the planter had been almost wholly destroyed by the
free trade measures; and a Committee of that House had
recommended that their protection should be restored. In
she event of a great Mall in the price of corn, the agri-
culturists at home would again demand protection ; and,
if the shipping interest were next sacrificed, what was
to be the result of all this? Surely, it would be wisdom
to wait till the measures already adopted had had a fair
trial. The people had been promised abundant employ-
ment from the free tra e measures, instead or which
employment had been diminished and wages reduced.—
(Hear.) The present measures threatened to deprive of
employment 25,000 of the people of Sunderland, who
were directly dependent on ship-building ; and there
were probably 25,000 more, indirectly dependent on the
same interest. It was most harsh to deprive such large
bodies of employment at one stroke.—(dear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) was clearly bound to
support the amendment; for he even disapproved of pro-
ceeding in this case by legislation, and thought treaties
the preferable course. He had criticised every point of the
proposed measure with great ability; and yet he had
come to the extraordinary conclusion that he ought to
support it. If the measure were carried, it certainly
to be accompanied by any restriction on
~enc_:, either as to the composition of their
, in any other matter.—(Hear, hear.) He dif-
fered from the Hon. Member for Manchester, (Mr.
Gibson) in thinking that the only thing worthy the no-
' tice of Parliament was commerce. Surely an object well
deserving the consideration of the Legislature was the
means of giving employment to the poor.--(Hear.)
He much regretted that a Member of the Government
had chosen to cast aspersions on the British marine.
Out of the large number of 33,000 captains, it was im-
possible but that some should be of objectionable cha-
racter. The returns from the consuls on this subject
had been ably analysed by his Honourable Friend
near him (Hr. Henley) ; that was a book
which ought never to have been laid on the
table of the House ; and every one interested in our
marine must regret that it had ever been produced.
He implored the House to pause before adopting a mea-
sure which must involve a most important intevst in
ruin, and which must, to a large extent, destroy the
ship-building trade of this eountry. At all events, let
them pause. See what was the effect of the free-trade
measure already passed. There was no demand for the
measure now proposed; it might very well be deferred
for an indefinite period. It was said Prussia demanded
it; but let not the legislature make concessions to
Prussia which would be injurious to our own country ;
at all events let some countervailing advantage be se-
cured. The corn-law had been repealed in a panic,
otherwise some valuable concessions might have been
obtained from the United States, in) return for the ad-
mission of their grain.—(Hear, hear.) We had taken
largely of grain from Prussia and other Continental
States; and had we made the most of this, surely
some advantage might have been obtained from those
countries. The shipping interest was now apparently
about to be sacrificed for no object whatever ; the
only inducement being that we might propitiate
Prussia or America.—(Hear, hear.) Government were
pushing on the measure; but, for his part, he should take
every opportunity of opposing it. Why had it not been
brought forward earlier, and not delayed until June?
The inquiry before the Committee had been abruptly
brought to a close. One main branch of the question—
the national defence—had been left untouched, with the
exception of the examination of a single witness. If
the measure passed, he hoped it would bo with the
amendment of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Glad-
stone.) The proposal was either too large or too small ;
it threatened to destroy our commercial marine, without
securing an advantage to any other interest. Let not
the House be led away by eulogies on the fanciful ad.
vantages of free trade, none of which had as yet been
realised.—(Hear, hear.) Under the present law slips
were built at Sunderland cheaper than in any other
place. That port furnished one-third of the shipping of
this kingdom; but, seeing how little British timber was
employed, it was impossible to resist the conclusion
that, if this measure became law, the ship-builders of
this country would transfer their capital to those king-
doms whence the timber was obtained.—(Hear. hear.)
Captain BERKELEY said he must express his dissent
from the views of Sir J. Stirling as to the dependence of
the royal navy on the mercantile navy for a supply of
hands. Of the apprentices reared in the royal navy,
many went into the merchant service; but the supply of
able seamen was net largely derived from that service.
Formerly, merchant ships were rigged and unrigged by
their own crews; this was now no longer the case; hence
good riggers and able seamen were no longer needed in
andathpopsreenshticipessip,b.For this re
the boys of the
enroyal navy
acceptable, whether they had deserted, or fulfilled their
there was w noter e v
every
that
supply of able seamen from the merchant service which
used to take place. With respect to the apprentices,
there were 3,000 said to be in the small fleet which
8 last
2,883
3 eight
were years.acco u
n Theytaccounted
arm obuyn ted t o
desertion; 2 1,0 000 f.
they now employed. He held in his hand a return of
the number of boys who had entered her Majesty's
navy for
the
e 2,aining 18,117, only 2,947 rejoined the royal
ntaafe m
navy. But But upon inquiry he found that this arose from
the circumstance, that when they went into the mer-
chant service and made a voyage, they entered the men
of war as if they did so for the first time, thus passing
themselves off as merchant seamen, whereas they were
brought up in the royal navy. He rejoiced, however, at
which took place between the
royal
T navy, but he would not
e that they received so many
men
recs
fromyhH asotnentm.
the
fv.
Gentlemen
ae
reciprocityand tnhb navyteeb
as was supposed. At the
present time they had 20,000 seamen, but at the end of
the war they had no difficulty in getting 100,000 sea-
men. There were, however, from 60,000 to 70,000
British seamen serving in foreign countries, particularly
America; and they had it for a fact, that when there was
a rumour of a war between the two countries, many men
came back and volunteered their services to her Majes-
ty's navy. It was well known that there were American
agents at Portsmouth, to induce men to enter the Ameri-
can service, and when, at the end of four years' service in
an American frigate, they came back with 100/. more in
their pocket than if they were in the British service it
was not to be wondered at that they went into the Ame-
rican n a hear.)
rnew that practically it was a
I navy.—(Hear, y
b.—
(H With respect to the regis •
tration of seamen,
had been successfully eluded, and yet it was
e a rh, he k
farce.
so hateful to the men that it had driven many out of the
country. He could only say, that having considered
the subject, and having examined the arguments on
both sides, he had no fear that if the Bill brought in
by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) had
been carried out, that they should have been able to
man the navy as well and as quickly as they ever had
done.—(Hear.)
Captain HARRIS agreed in a great deal of what had
fallen from the Gallant officer who bad just spoken.
He, however, differed from him with respect to his ob-
servations on the registration of seamen. He believed
that the registry-office contained the means of manning
without the navy having recourse to impressment. If
there was a feeling against the system of impressment
throughout the country, it was better that they should
take steps now with respect to the manning of the
navy than on the eve of a war, when they
night bg led to adopt hasty and crude measures. If
we ..ssor.s of the Admiralty did not take the subject into
their consideration he would introduce a measure him-
self next session.
He believed that Sir James Stiiling
was entirely erroneous in the evidence he gave before
the Committee on the navigation-laws, both with regard
to his facts and his plan of manning the navy. He was
surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for the University of Oxford should not only have ap-
proved of the measure of her Majesty's Government, but
of the denationalising of the merchant navy. He could
have scarcely believed thatC a gentleman who had held
office
such high under the Crown would have approved
any such measures. They were going to give up the
system of apprentices, on
the ground that it was a hard-
The apprentices might per-
baps be in too great number,ship on the shipowners.
but he would suggest that
the plan of reducing the number should be tried before
they gave up the system altogether. He believed that
they were able to compete with the Americans in the
construction of their ships, though he thought that Swe-
den
vessels c
and Denmark could construc heaper th an
t f
He therefore was o
they could in this country.
some advantage
should get
nion that the Government
from those countries by treaty. Above all things ho
would advise her Majesty's Government not to alter the
f th ofthe
seamen at least three- our s
law which required that
—(Hear, hear.)
seamen should be Englishmen.
to enter his solemn pro-
Sir A. HOOD begged leave
e test against the measure of the Noble Lord. II
be-
lieved that the effect of it would be to undermine what
had always been considered the bulwarks of England.
He believed it was a mere measure of free trade, the
navy. But what
object of which was to cut down the
done to West
there
in he would ask, had free trade the
Riding of Yorkshire itself? Were not the people
in the greatest distress? Were they to have no regard
to the interests of their colonies, which would be so much
injured by this measure, and which were already re-
duced to the greatest distress?
Mr. CLAY said he did not approve of the details of
the measure. As a free trader he could not advocate
the interest of one class at the expense of another, nor
should he insist on the worn-out argument that inas-
muchto the
as the commercial marine was a nursery
royal navy, the navigation-laws ought to be considered
as the price which they paid for the greatest of all goods,
the national defence. He abhorred the system of im-
pressment, and he believed they never could have re-
course to it again, but at the same time the measure was
not satisfactory to him unless they could point out
some way of manning the navy in time of emer-
gency without having recourse either to
the
system of impressment or the system of high bounties.
He believed that the protection of a particular class was

never intended by the institution of the navigation-laws.
The present measure proposed to takeaway all the privi-
leges given by these laws, and to leave the burdens.
This seemed to him to be very unjust. They said that
their sailors were most inefficient, and yet they were
going to retain that part of the navigation-laws which
obliged them to have three-fourths of these inefficient
men in their merchant vessels. That was not his elation
of free trade.—(Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that it
would be a great advantage to the British shipping in-
terests if their coasting trade was thrown open to the
Americans. It seemed to him that they imposed burdens
on the shipping interest for national purposes, and yet
the nation repudiated to pay for those advantages. He
did not think that was fair. He believed, that though
there were many things which might be amended in the
British seaman, he was not the inefficient person he was
represented to be, and that he was able to compete with
the sailor of any other country in the world. He was
not, however, satisfied with a measure in which the
interests of the shipowners were not attended to. He
thought they ought to be relieved from the duty on ma-
rine insurance. He thought also there ought to be no
vexatious charges imposed upon those who took out of
bond small c;' entities of stores for short voyages. This
might seem a small grievance, but it was one which con-
siderably affected his constituents. There were similar
charges at foreign ports from which the shipowners
ought also to be relieved. Much evidence had been gone
into to prove that we could not compete in ship-building
with foreign nations, but he did not attach much im-
portance to the evidence which was adduced on that
point upon either side. He thought that the practical
grievances were what the British shipowners had to fear,
and if those were removed he was not disposed to think
they would suffer by change of the existing laws. Under
these circumstances, he of course could not give his
support to the amendment, not believing that it was by
any means desirable that the principle of the navigation-
laws ought to remain untouched. He knew that it was
very likely his views would be far from acceptable to
either party, but if he satisfied nothing else he should
at least satisfy his own conscience by the vote it was his
intention to give that night in favour of the measure.
Mr. NEWDEGATE complained of the way in which
this measure was brought before the the House, without
complete evidence being adduced in support of it. He
also complained of the way in which statistics were used
in support of the measure, and especially of the way in
which they were used by the Member for Westbury
(Mr. Wilson). The Hon. Gentleman had quoted the
returns of tonnage from 1817 to 1823, to oppose to
those of the year 1846. But during the interval Sir R.
Peel's banking Bill had passed, and the consequence was
great commercial depression. It was, therefore, an
abuse of statistics to take the years cited by the Hon.
Member. So different were his (Mr. Newdegate's) own
calculations from those of the Hon. Member that he be-
lieved the Americans in a very few years would have a
greater amount of
.tonnage in their marine than we
should have. The proportion in which the maritime
navy of that country was progressing was, at the pre-
sent time, much greater than ours. They were upon
our heels, and were fast overtaking us. But he was told
that this was in effect an argument for alteration of our
existing system, and that we had better at once throw
over a system which did not sufficiently protect us. We
must not, however, try to deal with the United States
in that style. The United States, for her part, acted
on the principle of the strictest reciprocity, and so well
did she work it that of her whole trade only 17 per
cent. was carried in foreign vessels in 1846. It was no
trifling matter, therefore, that we were dealing with.
The Chevalier Bunsen, on the part of a great European
power, intimated distinctly that relaxation was not the
principle of the Zollverein. The country was beginning
to look with great distrust at the motives which actuated
that free trade which they observed had its origin, its
centre, and its aim in Manchester, and which for its sole
result, everywhere else, had produced private ruin and
public discontent. He called upon the Noble Lord op-
posite, as he valued the preservation of his reputation for
statesmanship, as he desired to avert the curses of pos-
terity, to refuse his sanction to this Bill.
Mr. WAWN said that the shipping interest of this
country had very little occasion to be fond of reciprocity
treaties, under which its business had so greatly fallen
off, having, among other losses, sustained the entire loss
of the South Sea whale fishery, which had become vested
in the Americans. There was the reciprocity treaty with
Russia; what had been the effect of this treaty 2 That
since its ratification there had been an increase in British
tonnage engaged in the trade of 58 per cent., but in Rus-
sian tonnage, of 150 per cent. The Ministers had made
many blunders in these reciprocity treaties, and many
more they would make before they tumbled through.—
(Hear.) As to the proposition of admitting the Ameri-
cans to the coasting trade of this country, he had no
fear of the Americans themselves coming here to carry
on our coasting trade—they were too far off; but he
objected to the admission of the principle involved,
for :he knew that the people who put in this wedge
would drive it home, if room were given, and we should
have, not the Americans, but the Danes, Swedes, and
Norwegians, usurping our coasting trade. The injury,
however, which now weighed upon our coasting trade,
and threatened to overwhelm it, was the railways, to
which an abase of power in Parliament had given such
monstrous facilities for obtaining a monopoly in our
home-carrying trade. He wanted to know whether the
Government, as some compensation, would reduce the
timber duties, so far as our shipbuilders were concerned.
Ile wholly repudiated the statement of the Hon. Member
for Stoke, that the shipping interest was in a condition
of prosperity. He called upon the House to recollect
that what made us independent of foreign countries
during the war was not free trade, but our colonies, rich,
industrious, and loyal, and our thriving mercantile ma-
rine. Let not the House, by assenting to this measure,
destroy both these sources of independence.
Viscount INGESTRE said that the Government had
assigned no valid cause for the fatal and sweeping
change which they proposed to make in oar navigation
system. If there were defects in that system, let them
be clearly shown, and he for one would consent very
readily to remedy them, but he did not understand why,
because a man was ill, he should be poisoned instead of
cured. If free trade was to be quoted as the reason for
effecting the proposed change, let him ask whether free-
trade principles had maintained themselves. The oc-
currences of late months would too clearly prove that
such had not been the case. The full effect of the abo-
lition of the corn-laws had not been experienced ; when
it was, Hon. Gentlemen would not be so enamoured of
that change as they now were. He recollected in the
good old fashioned times, when ships, colonies, and com-
merce, was a standing toast. The statesmen of that day
never anticipated the hour would come when foreign
ships were to be allowed to snatch the coasting and
carrying trade from our native sailors. There was an
adage, which, though homely, he thought might be
aptly quoted, namely, " that charity begins at home;"
and if the propounders of the proposed policy had re-
garded that maxim a little more, it would have been as
well for the empire. There had been none of that cla-
mour or exertion made to induce persons to oppose the
abolition of the navigation-laws which generally at-
tended great changes. He had presented a most impor-
tant petition yesterday, numerously signed by seamen,
and every one of whom had voluntarily, and without be-
ing stimulated to do so, come forward almost in a body
to put their names to it. Aa for the Blue Book, which
had been so much quoted in support of the proposed
change, he must say he did not rely upon the statements
contained in that book; on the contrary he considered it
to be little better than a heap of calumnies upon British
seamen collected by the assistance of British consuls. How-
ever, there was very little hope that a measure introduced
at so late a period of the session would be passed. If
the navigation-laws ware abolished one of the immediate
consequences would be that British capital would seek
investment in foreign states to the great detriment of
the native interests of the empire. The Americans
would also get all the most valuable freights, namely,
the light goods, whilst the heavy carrying trade of
sugars, and other raw produce involving greater risk
and more wear and tear, would alone devolve on English
shipping.T
i ot
the
ethe
oproposed
earnestlychange
he
e
came
tmorehe:Board
t consideration,
oedetails
a redof Admiralty to render
t
was convinced of the duty which devolved upon the
Government
themselves masters of the serious changes which would
be thereby necessitated in the efficiency of the fleet of
Great Britain. He did say that, before the House en-
under
andh hise
terod upon an alteration of the laws which involved the
honour and safety of the empire, the Government was
bound to propose some substitute for the present mode
of manning the navy. The Hon. Member for Westbury
had compared the amount of the mercantile tonnage of
this country from 1817 to 1823, and from 1845 to 1846,
to show that a great falling off had taken place in that
tonnage. But the Hon. Member for Warwickshire had
very clearly shown that the imputed cause had had
nothing to do with the apparent falling off.

Lord J. HAY said that the Noble Lord and all who
had opposed the proposition of the Government, rested
their opposition on the effect it was calculated to produce
upon the naval character of the country. He was ready
to concede that the naval power of this and any other
country must dependl upon its commercial prosperity ;
and it he could belie,re that this measure would disturb
the naval power of England, it should not have his
support. But, after considering it in all its bearings, he
believed it calculated: to add to the energy, enterprise,
and spirit of this country, to increase its wealth and naval
supremacy.—(Hear.) Twenty years ago he heard the
same arguments used in that House against a relaxation
of the navigation-law s; and what had been the result
since ? Why, that e very fresh step towards relaxation
had produced an incr., ease of British tonnage and a corre-
sponding increase of British seamen. Some Honourable
Gentlemen had stated: that it would be prudent to wait
until we found a corresponding liberality in foreign
countries. He, for o' se, was not prepared to suspend the
natural results that f nust spring from freedom of trade,
because other natioi is were too stupid to understand
them.----(" Hear, hear,!' from Mr. Hume and others.) It
was said also that the shipping interest of this country
was unable to compet a with that of other countries—that
the building and equii tiling of ships cost more in England
BthaonionEnglandl., the
at
nb
d atras in
cheaper t
than elsewhere. He i ,ellieved that was true as related to
inferior ships, but cei Mainly not as regarded first class
t Indies;any c
1 3u
ships, which could lie built and equipped cheaper in
tne ritn h
te
the
comparison
um nationo on nia
ertidhs
oesntgaoltofebs6ebo,
y.
oocheaperol.
nearlyto
o, o
20 per cent. With regard to what fell from the Hon.
Member for Oxfordshi re respecting the correspondence
of the British consuls, he could only say that he had read
every word of it, and t hi evidence contained in the Blue
Book, and speaking fror a its own experience, was prepared
to verify every word of it .—(Cheers and counter cheers.)
In 1831, when he con in landed one of her Majesty's
squadrons off the Dowi si;, they had to put from 80 to
100 British merchant sl i ips under the protection of the
British flag; and scarce 1;y a day passed that he was not
called upon to decide a g carrel between the master and
crew of one of them, iu r early every instance the master
being wrong, and the j men ill-used.—(Hear, hear.)
In the like manner, in 1843, when he commanded a
frigate at New York, :Aim, cases of complaint were

brought before him, which he plainly saw had arisen
from a bad state of moral discipline on board the vessels.
He had lately taken pains to make inquiries on the
subject from some professional men, and every one of
them confirmed the opinion he entertained on the sub-
ject. He did not mean to cast an imputation generally
on the mercantile marine of this country; he spoke of
particular trades, and of vessels making short voyages,
and was aware that the Thames, the Clyde, Liverpool,
and Bristol formed exceptions. It had been asked
how it would be possible to get men from the mer-
chant service to join the navy in case of need, with-
out having recourse to impressment. This was scarcely
a fair question to put to a professional man, but he did not
hesitate to state his firm belief, that if this country was
to-morrow involved in a war, the necessary consequence
would be a stoppage, to a certain extent of trade, which
would throw a number of men out of employ in the
ports, and it would not be difficult to get volunteers for
the navy among them. However, he certainly should
not recommend impressment, for there would be no
necessity to have recourse to it.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord opposite (Lord Ingestre), at the beginning
of his speech, had asked another question, to which he
(Lord. John Hay) thought it right to give an answer.
The Noble Lord asked, what the country had got by
free-trade measures. His reply was "You have got
everything you expected, and I only hope the repeal of
the navigation-laws may be as successful as had been
the repeal of the corn-laws."—(lronical cheers from
the Protectionist benches.) He (Lord John Hay)
understood the meaning of those cheers ; but
he would tell Hon. Gentlemen opposite that he
had looked into and understood as well, and was as muck
attached to, the agricultural interests as they were, and
he defied those Hon. Gentlemen to disprove the fact that
property had been sold, and farms been let, at higher
prices and on better terms than was the case before the
corn-laws' were altered.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HILDYARD (Whitehaven) said, as a young
Member of the House, he hoped to be allowed, even at
this period of a protracted debate, to state shortly the
grounds upon which he felt it his duty to oppose the
resolutions which had been brought forward by her Ma-
jesty's. Government. In spite of the opinion expressed
by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone) to the con-
trary, he (Mr. Hildyard) held that the onus lay upon
the Government to show the necessity for incurring so
serious a risk as their proposition involved, and what
rational likelihood there existed of gain to the country
which induced them to undertake that risk. No Hon.
Member on the other side of the House had remarked
upon the immense stake which was involved in this ex-
periment. The capital embarked in shipping by this
country was not less than 40,000,0001., irrespective of the
capital embarked in occupations connected with shipping.
Hon. Members opposite bad spoken of the owners
of this capital as though they were a protected class,
and could well afford the reduction in their profits
which this measure must inevitably produce. A greater
error could not exist than to suppose that the capital em-
barked in shipping was concentrated in the hands of a
few rich individuals; on the contrary, he knew that in
the port he had the honour to represent a very large
portion of the tradesmen and all the retired merchants
there had, according to their respective means, embarkd
their property in the shipping connected with that port;
and let the House consider the immense ruin that must
fall upon these individuals if this experiment of the Go-
vernment failed. Let them remember the number of
hands who gained a livelihood from shipping, besides
the sailors, who, by reason of a failure in this proposi-
tion, would be involved in ruin. In such an event, what
was to become of the enormous body of sailors who
would be thrown out of employ, and who were utterly
unfit for any other occupation? No one had at-
tempted to deny—on the contrary-, it had been admitted
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by the Hon. and
Gallant Member for Gloucester (Captain Berkeley),
and by the Noble Lord who had just sat down—that the
prosperity of the commercial marine was essential to
the efficiency of the naval service. Such being the risks
to which capital, the men engaged in the service, and
the empire would be expoied, what was the necessity
and what the advantages held out by the Government
to induce the House to consent to incur these risks? In
the first place, it was stated that the policy adopted by
other nations made it necessary for this country to
change its policy, and two nations, viz., Prussia and
America, had been named. He cared not whether or
not the intimation which had been given to this country
was to be regarded as a threat and menace, because
there was no probability that Prussia was, or would be,
able to carry that menace into execution. That menace
he could trace to the ill-advised course taken by the
Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Board of Trade,
when he told a merchant who asked him to relax the
navigation-laws in a particular instance, that he
thought those laws required alteration, and he re-
gretted he had no power to interfere to alter the provi-
sions of the statute. Language of that sort soon became
known to foreign powers, and they would as soon at-
tempt to take advantage of it.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that the louse mode in which this sort of language
had beea used by persons in high official stations caused
the threat of Prussia on the one hand, and the soft in-
vitation of America on the other.—(Hear, hear.) But
no reasonable man could believe that Prussia had the
power to carry her threat into effect. And now as to
the soft invitation of America. The suggestions of Mr.
Bancroft might have been made in perfect good faith ou
his part, but it did not follow that the executive powers
in America would carry those suggestions into effect,
even after this country had adopted them. America was
not rescinding her navigation-laws pari passu with this
country, but was watching the proceedings of the Bri-
tish Legislature; and in the end, if the American Execu-
tive should be left in a minority, in what condition would
this country be? Assuming that America acted with
good faith, we must give up to her our colonial trade,
and she had nothing like it to give us in return.—(Hear.)
It might be an advantage to give up the coasting trade
of this country if America would throw open hers; for
the probability was that America could take none of
ours, while her immense sea-board, with its constantly
developing trade, would be in some measure thrown into
our hands. The number of American vessels engaged
in the coasting trade was as great as the whole of those
engaged in the foreign trade. As to our colonial trade,
it was said the colonies demanded this measure. He
denied it. They had demanded relaxation with regard
to themselves, and we were about to give it to all the
world, which, so far from being a boon, would be a
positive disadvantage to the colonies. Hon. Gentlemen
had contended that this measure was due to the co-
lonies as a compensation for the late free-trade mea-
sures; others defended the measure as a benefit to the
consumer at home. But bow could it be beneficial to
both? If the reduction of freight went into the
pockets of the colonists, where would be the advan-
tage to the consumer:at home? One fact ought to be
borne in mind. Since the Ist of March the corn duties had
again come into operation, and a duty of 6s. or 7s. had
been imposed. Corn had not, however, risen in priCe;
the obvious inference was, that before the duty was re-
imposed the difference had gone into the pocket of the
foreign corn-grower. Here was the fallacy of the boasted
doctrines of free trade; the revenue of- this country was
robbed to enrich foreigners.—(Hear, hear.) The case
of Canada had been strongly relied on by the supporters
of this measure. It was said the Americans were carry-
ing away the whole traffic of the St. Lawrence, and there-
fore we must have competition. Why, it was competi-
tion which had caused the mischief ; and how could an
increase of competition remedy it?—(Hear, hear.) But
the great question was, could we or could we not success.
fully compete with those in whose favour we were about
to legislate? If we could, why make any exceptions at
all—why exclude the coasting trade from the com-
petition ? The measure itself implied distrust
in the efficacy of what was proposed.—(Hear, hear.)
After twenty-four years' experience of the reciprocity
system, he found that there had entered inwards of
British ships from Norway, Sweden, Holland, and
Prussia, 118,207 tons; while the shipping of those coun-
tries entered inwards amounted to 665,600 tons. Thus,
although at the close of the war we had the whole car-
rying trade in our hands, we now retained only about
onesseventh.--(Hear, hear.) How did Mr. Porter, the
great authority of the Board of Trade, after the Hon.
Member for Glasgow (Mr. Macgregor) had ceased to
instruct Ministers there—(Laughter)—how did he deal
with this fact? He alleged that our ships had found
more profitable employment. It was clear that the
operation of the reciprocity treaties had been precisely
the opposite of what was represented. The case was
stronger when British and Russian shipping were com-
pared. In 1846, the amount of British shipping en-
tered inwards from Russia was 452,438 tons; of Rus-
sian, 65,000 tons. In the very next year the amount
of British shipping was 541,000 tons ; of Russian,
128,000 tons ; the increase being about one-fourth in
our case, and double in that or Russia. (Hear,
hear.) The reason was that Russia, like America,
encouraged her shipping; and unless we did the same
how could we compete with them on equal terms? The
consequence must be that we should be stripped of our
commercial marine, and should soon be left utterly de-
fenceless.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Man-
chester had talked of our having arrived at a new era,
when glory, power, and supremacy, had passed away.—
(No, no.) At least that was the; sum and substance of
what he said, and the sentiment had been vociferously
cheered by those around him.—(Cheers.) lie wished the
"new era" might prove as prosperous as the one which
he supposed passing away. He (Mr. Hildyard) could not
but be reminded of the speculation of one of our greatest
modern poets, who, sitting amongst the ruins of
_aceloe-
brated city of antiquity, had anticipated a like fate
lr
modern empires.—(Hear, hear.) If the House should
unfortunately contribute to such a result, they onot
would
have the mortification of reflecting that
they ha
done so from any necessity, but merely for the sake of
ministering to a false and hollow liberality._ (Cheers.)
Sir J. WALSH moved.that the debate be adjourned;
before
the strangers were ordered to withdraw; but,
the galleries were cleared,
Lord J. RUSSELL rose to express a hope that if the
House intended to take a division on the preliminary
resolutions that they would do so at nce, and not further
adjourn the debate, especially as o
Hon. Members would
have full opportunity of expressing their opinions when
the Bill was brought in.—(Cries of "Adjourn.") It
would be most inconvenient to postpone the introduction
of the Bill until after the holidays, and as on Monday
next it was understood that a Committee of Supply
should be moved, in order to give the Hon. Member for
Dersetshire an opportunity of bringing on his amend-
ment founded on the Spanish correspondence, and, as if
this debate were further adjourned, it could not be re-
sumed before Thursday, when the discussion on the re-
solution could scarcely be taken before Whitsuntide, he
hoped the House would consent to go to a division at
once on the amendment of the Right lion. Member for
Stamford.—(Cries of " No," "Adjourn," and " Go on.")
Mr. RICARDO also urged the propriety of dividing
at once on the main question.
Sir J. WALSH must insist on his motion, as he and
many others intended to express their opinions on this
preliminary step.—(Cries of " Go on, " Adjourn," and
" Divide.")

~+