The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-01 00:00:00

sanction an increase of 95.0001. over the• vote of last
year. But this expenditure bring necessary for the
efficiency of the service, and as this was one of the
last items in which they should endeavour to econo-
mise, he trusted he should have the concurrence of
the Committee. He now came to No. 7, which was the
largest vote in these estimates. In this vote Govern-
ment had thought it desirable to make a reduction.
and he bad laid on the table a revised vote showing a
decrease on the corresponding vote as contained in the
original estimates of 119,875/. Ile must not, however,
be understood as acknowledging that the vote as origi-
nally proposed was not justified. Bst since the first es-
timates were proposed circumstances . had occurred in
the finances of the country which rendered it necessary
for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to endeavour, by
reducing the estimates, to meet the difficulty which be-
set him on every side. This was communicated to the
Ordnance, and the opinion of the Master-General, the
Commander-in-Chief, and the Inspector-General of Fur-
tresses was taken as to the possibility of making any re-
ductions in the expenditure of that department ; and it
was thought that as there were certain works which had
been done without before, these might be done without
new, and the expense which they would occasion de-
ferred till another year..—(Hear, hear.) This was the
mode in which a reduction in these estimates had been
effected. The House must not, however, expect
that these works could be indefinitely postponed ;
on the contrary, they were considered as absolutely
necessary by the high authorities to whom he had
alluded ; and he hoped, when the state of the finances
would justify it, that the House would readily sanction
the expense. The gross amount of the reduction in this
vote was 134,6751., and the detail of the items on which
it was effected would be found fully explained in the re-
vised estimates which had been laid on the table. They
comprised the charges for ordnance home stations, bar-
racks in Great Britain, barracks in Ireland, ordnance
foreign, and barracks foreign. There were some small
additions in the home stations, for completing the sea
batteries at Gravesend and Tilbury, for the defences of
the harbour at Albany now forming, and foe increased
barrack accommodation in Ireland, which would take
the place of some of the reductions, and reduce the
total saving to the sum he had stated, via., 119,875/.
He might be permitted to add that the vote was made
out in a different form than on previous occasions, and
supplied more inforMation. In the last part of the vote
in which provision was taken fur works less than 1,0001.,
each particular work was separately stated and ex-
plained.—(llear, hear.) The next vote was for the
scientific branch ; 71,987/. was the Sum proposed to be
taken for this; last year the amount voted was 58,9861.,
consequently there was here an increase of 13,001/. That
was recording to the original estimate, but he now pro-
pesed to take a vote for 3;200/. less, deducting that sum
from the item 6,2001. for the junior academy at.Car-
shalton, which could not this year be carried out to the
extent proposed when the estimates were prepared.
There had-been some complaints of irregularities at this
academy, which had engaged the aitention of the Mas-
ter-General, and the measures he had carried into effect
in consequence, he was happy to say, had much im-
proved the discipline of' the school, and he believed no
complaints had of late been made. This establishment,
whose object was to prepare the cadets for the collage
at Woolwich, was of no expense to the public ; the ex-
pense was wholly paid by the friends of the pupils; but
as the payments made by them on account of the cadets
could not be inserted in the accounts until the year after
the payment, they were obliged to propose a vote. The
House would be aware that the vote was principally for
the Ordnance survey of the United Kingdom, for which
purpose it was now proposed to take the sum of 60,0001.
That survey was proceeding in a satisfactory manner; and
though there were sonic complaints of preference given
to England and Ireland, and of consequent delay in Scot-
land, the manner is which it was carried on was such
that there was every reason for supposing that this valu-
able work would be completed at the earliest possible
period. The reduction on the Carshalton academy item
would reduce the increase in this vote from 1,3001. to
9,8001. The next vote, which was for non-effective
services, they could net alter ; the total amount this
year was less than the vote of the previous year by
1,121/. This was the statement he had to make, and he
Could assure the House that in providing for the supplies
and in eXpending the public money, the department with
which he was connected paid every regard to economy
consistent with the efficiency of the service. The first
vote lie had to propose was, 316,2541. for pay allowances
and contingencies of Ordnance military corps ; the
total vote was 716,2541, but 400,0001. had already been
granted on account.
The question having been put,
Mr. OSBORNE inquired if the report of the Select.
Committee on the estimates had been presented ?
Mr. F. MAULE replied that the Committee. had not
taken the ordnance estimates into consideration, nor did
they propose to do so during the present session. They
had hitherto been engaged on the navy estimates, their
report of which had been laid on the table.
Colonel SIBT110.1i!? objected to voting these esti-
mates until the report was produced.. Everything was
now to be postponed until next session except the " cor -
rupt practices."—(A laugh.) He • wished to know
whether the Corrupt Practices Bill was to be brought on
to-morrow at twelve o'clock. If the Noble Lord would
satisfy him on that point he would retire without offer-
ing any opposition to the estimates.
. Lord J. RUSSELL did not propose to take that Bill
to-morrow at twelve o'clock.
Sir F. T. BARING stated that the Committee on
public expenditure had been engaged for some time on
the navy estimates, and had gone into details which had
occupied their whole time till now, and when HOB.
Members read the report which had been presented ho
thought they would not say their time had been wasted.
—(Cheers.) lie was bound also to say that the Govern-
ment had afforded the Committee every explanation and
document that was required.—(llear.) - With regard to.
the ordnance estimates, as the Committee had made no
inquiry into them, he was not prepared to offer any op-
position to these votes. lie understood Government in-
tended to appoint a similar Committee next session, which
should take the ordnance and other estimates into con-
sideration.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord J. Russell.) He
was satisfied with that assurance, but in voting for
these estimates, he wished it
.to be understood that he
did so on the responsibility of the Government only.
His opinion was, that without trenching on the effi-
ciency of the several services, the estimates might be
reduced. Ile spoke from what he had seen as to the navy
estimates, which he had had the opportunity of ex-
amining, and ho hoped that in another year Govern-
ment would fad that considerable reduction would not
be incompatible with perfect efficiency.
Mr. 13. OSBORNE must enter his protest against
the whole system of management in the Ordnance de-
partment. lie complained of the expense of the Royal
Horse Artillery, which he described as a corps kept
up as a plaything for foreign ambassiolors and for re-
views. Since the last expedition to Portugal, this force
had never, he believed, left England. If the horse
artillery was dispenSed with, they might have a much
larger force of foot artillery, which was far more
useful. As to the clothing of the artillery—as re-
garded the line, they were told that the system was a
good one of making an allowance for the clothing to
the general officer; if so, why was not the same system
acted upon in the artillery?
Colonel ANSON defended the horse artillery who, he
said, might be called the cavalry of the artillery. Field
batteries were, no doubt, efficient in a field of battle
where a position Might be taken up; but in dispatching'
troops suddenly from ono place to another the horse
artillery was indispensable. As to their clothing, he did
not mean to defend it; but the efficiency of the corps did
not depend on that, but on their activity, their dis-
cipline, and high military character.
Mr. OSBORNE said that if a Committee were granted
he would pledge himself to prove that a much 'more
efficient force than the horse artillery might be main-
tained at half the cost.

Mrs HERIUES said that when the estimates had been
presented at the commencement of the session they were
thought excessive, and a Committee was appointed to
revise them. Now, however, they were called upon to
pass those estimates, being told that the Committee had
given up all hope of getting further than the naval
estimates during the present session. He was not pre-
pared to say that the ordnance estimates should be re*
duced, but certainly the House was not placed in a fair
position for their consideration. If the estimates had
been brought forward at an earlier period, they might,
with the assistance of the Committee, have effected
a considerable reduction. Under these circumstances,
he had only to express his regret that such a course had
not been adopted, and his hope that some examination
might take place in the ensuing session.
Admiral BOWLES said that when the report of the
Committee; came to be compared with the evidence he
believed it would not be tound worthy the consideration
of the House.

Mr. F. MAULE defended the course he had taken
on the Committee. Ile denied having done anything to
damage the opinion of the Committee in the estimation
of the House.
Admiral BOWLES explained. He had merely meant
to complain that the Committee was composed of gen-
tlemen of extreme opinions, while there was not a single
professional man among its members. Consequently,
it had merely been groping in the dark.
Col. SIBTHORP complained that the money of the
country was always voted away in a thin House.
The vote was then agreed to.
116,0311., for commissariat and barracks, and for the
supply of great-coats for the army, was proposed.
Mr. OSBORNE objected to the supply of great-coats
for the army being mixed up with the ordnance estimates.
After a few words from Colonel ANSON, the vote was
agreed to.
On 46,1361. for the ordnance department in the Tower
being moved,
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that the system on which the
ordnance was managed was most extravagant. He had
no compl:►int to make of the Master-General, but he
would put it to the House whether an officer of hussars
was fit to manage the artillery department of the empire?
He moved t hat the vote be reduced by 3,0001., the Mas-
ter-General's salary.
The amendment was negatived without a division, and
the vote was agreed to.
120,64 a was voted for the barrack department and
garrison staff.

28,5674, wages of artificers in the United Kingdom.
233,7434 for ordnance stores, land and sea service.
34,1551. for works, buildings, and repairs at home and
abroad.

On it being proposed to vote the sum of 28,7871., for
the scientific branch of the ordnance,
Mr. B. OSBORNE asked if this sum included the
expense of the survey of London?
Colonel ANSON said the Ordnance had nothing to do
with that survey.
Captain GORDON naked whether any money was to
be granted for the Ordnance Survey of Scotland this
year?
Colonel ANSON said that 13,0001. .had been applied
to this purpose last year, and 15,0001. would be appro-
priated to it during the present year.