The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-26 00:00:00

YENING-, AUGUST 26, 1848.

1,250/. a year, and, as he had stated yesterday, his re-
tirement took place solely on the ground of ill health.
The Treasury had awarded him the full amount of pen-
sion which they had power to award, namely, 800/., but
not, as he had stated yesterday, by mistake, his full
salary. He might be allowed to add, that before Mr.
Ker was appointed to the office of Auditor-General he
was Assistant Auditor General, and stood next in rota-.
tion for the appointment.
In answer to a question by Lord G. BENTINCK,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Copper and Lead Duties Bill and the Spirits Bill
would be taken at five o'clock on Monday.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved the order of the day for going into a,Coramittee
of Ways and Means.
EMPLOYMENT OF THE POOR IN IRELAND.
Mr. P. SCROPE rose to move " That no further ap-
propriation of moneys taken from general taxation be
made in aid of the poor-rate of Irish unions except on
condition-1. That it be expended on the productive
employment of the able-bodied poor. 2. That repay-
ment be secured by a lien on the property improved by
the works, as well as on the rateable property of the
union." He complained that the Poor-law Commis-
sioners employed the poor in stone-breaking, which was
an unproductive occupation, and refused the request
which had been made to them by several boards of
guardians that the able-bodied paupers might be em-
ployed in productive labour on the land. There was no
difficult,/ in finding employment for productive labour in
Ireland, and experience had shown, according to the
statement of Dr. Harrison, that the able-bodied poor
might be most successfully engaged in reclaiming waste
land. What could be more demoralizing than feeding
men in a state of perfect idleness ? If any public
money was to be contributed out of the hard earnings of
the people of this country in aid of the poor-rates of
some of the Irish unions, he contended that it ought to
be spent in such a manner as would be productive of
some profit, so as to afford same chance of the money
being repaid. It would be unjust to the English public
if some condition of this kind did not attach to the loan
of English money.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE thought the Hon. Gentleman
bad very unfairly thrown blame on the Poor-law Com-
missioners for not doing that which the law did not em-
power them to do. He complained that the able-bodied
paupers were not provided for by the Poor-law Com-
missioners, and kept in employment. Now, it was
enough-, to say that the law absolutely prohibited the
Commissioners from giving relief in the way the Hon.
Gentleman proposed. The law might be right or
wrong; but. unquestionably it prohibited the able-bodied
being relieved except in the workhouse. He entirely
differed from the Hon. Gentleman in the View he took
of the question. He did not think that the employment
of pauper labourers on what the Hon. Gentleman called
" reproductive works" would be attended with success;
he did not think they would be reproductive works at
all. The Hon. Gentleman did not say what those fe-
productive works ought to be. He merely quoted from
Alison's pamphlet on that part of the question. Now,
the essence of Dr. Alison's plan was, that forcible pos-
session should be taken of waste lands; but it was im-
possible the Poor-law Commissioners could do this, as
no such compulsory powers were given them. He be-
lieved that if such a plan as that proposed by the Hon.
Gentleman was carried out, they would turn the whole
country into one mass of pauperism; and he therefore
hoped that the propositions submitted by the Hon.
Member would not receive the sanctio❑ of the House.
Lord G. BENTINCK said, the report of the Commis-
sioners of Public Works in Ireland contained a complete
refutation .of the crotchets put iforward by the Hon.
Member for Stroud, and showed that it was impossible
to carry out the reclamation of waste lands in the manner
ho proposed. The report, however, gave, on the other
hand, much encouragement to the House to grant loans
to Irish proprietors for the improvement of their estates.
The Commissioners showed that great advantages had
followed the drainage and other works, and that they
apticipated no difficulty in a gradual repayment of the
expenditure in half-yearly instalments.
Mr. HUME thought the portions of the report to
which the Noble Lord had referred were in favour of the
propositions of the Hon. Member for Stroud. He con-
curred in the principles laid down by the Hon. Gentle-
man, and he thought the House was obliged to him for
calling their attention to the way in which future pay-
inents for works in Ireland ought to be made. He was
clearly in favour of a system by which able-bodied pau-
pers should be relieved by means of labour, provided that
labour was of a productive character; and he did not see,
therefore, why the proposal of the Hon. Gentleman should
not be agreed to by the House.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I think I can agree generally
with the principles laid down on this subject by the Hon.
Member for Montrose, but I do not go along with him
in thinking that the view which he has so far com-
mended is at one with the object which my Honourable
Friend the Member for Stroud has proposed. It may
be very useful to advance money from the State on par-
ticular occasions, with the view of getting work exe-
cuted for the improvement of estates, and that is what
the Noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck) referred to as
having been done under the Land Improvement Act. In
a case of that kind a loan is advanced to the proprietor,
and the Board of Works sees that the particular work is
executed; but the work is executed by the ordinary
means of giving due wages to those who are employed,
t~iz., the able-bodied labourers, who, in return for those
wages, perform the work given to them to do. In that
way property may be much improved; a fair return may
be obtained for the money expended ; employment is
given; and the whole result of such money being ad-
vanced is very beneficial to all parties. There is another
mode in which the State may be called on to assist, and
that is the mode in which relief is afforded in this coun-
try in a time of great distress and destitution. In those
periods when there are a great many destitute poor
those destitute poor are allowed a certain amount of re-
lief ; and in order to obtain proof that those persons are
really destitee, and that they would not come for relief
if they could find employment elsewhere, some work
which is of an irksome kind is given them to do—the
work being of value, as a proof that they are persons to
whom relief should be afforded That is the way in
which we spend several millions a year in this country
for the relief of destitution. Now both these things
may be exceedingly right to be undertaken, and both
have their separate uses. But if we attempt to combine
these two things—if you say you will employ all the
paupers in a district, and, at the same time, undertake
useful works, by means of which regular wages will be
earned, you are just doing the very thing to which the
llon. Meo*ier for Montrose objects; because he says,
and says truly, that if the Government undertake works
and employs labour, it interferes with the labour mar-
ket, and therefore the whole result is very unsatisfactory.
—(Hear, hear.) I agree with him in that respect. If
you say these persons are destitute, and therefore you
must employ them, you will find that their labour is
not worth that which it pretends to be worth, and
that you are paying them money in the way of wages
while you are not getting work equal to the amount of
those wages. On the other hand, you find a number of
persons coming to these public works who are not really
destitute, and to whom you would not otherwise think
of affording relief.—(Hear, hear.) There are, however,
as I have said, two courses, both of which may be ne-
cessary. The one is, to advance money to proprietors,
to be laid out in labour for the improvement of their es-
tates; and the Oiler is, that in cases of extreme destitu-
tion you afford relief for the purpose of preventing the
misery that may be induced. But when you attempt to
combine them, as the Hon. Member for Stroud attempts
to do, you will inevitably fall into an error that cannot
fail to be prejudicial.—(Hear, hear.) I believe the Hon.
Member for Montrose, and I perfectly agree in these
propositions; but then these are not the objects sought
for by the Hon. Member for Stroud. I have only
to say that I do not think it would be safe to adopt
the proposal of the Honourable Member, as it would, I
am afraid, lead to some highly injurious modes of pro..
ceeding with reference to Ireland.
After a few words from Mr. P. SCROPE in explana-

lion, -
Mr. BRIGHT thought that, as the present was in all
probability the last opportunity which would be afforded
this session of referring to the state of Ireland, a short
time mat be very usefully employed in considering that
important subject. A more convenient time could
hardly be chosen for throwing out suggestions with re-
ference to Ireland, seeing the Ministry had some months
of leisure belore them, which, no doubt, they would wish
to employ in considering what course it would be their
duty to pursue, and especially as he understood the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government was about to pay
a visit to Ireland for the purpose of getting more infor-
:nation than he now possessed as to the mournful con-
dition of that unhappy country.—(Hear, hear.) It was
admitted by all that tho condition of Ireland was worse
now than it had ever been ; and, so far as they could see
at present, there was no prospect that they would find
that country under different circumstances for a long
tisne to come, unless some new path was struck out
by which the people would be enabled to secure for
themselves comfort and independence. One prominent
consequence of the miserable state of matters in Ireland
was the effect which it was every day producing on cer-
tain districts of this country.—(Hear, hear.) They had
seen attempted disturbances and disaffection of an ex-
ceedingly unpleasant character manifested here and there
in England. Now, if they took Lancashire, they would
find that it exhibited in many respects the results flowing
from a large importation of the unhappy population of
Ireland. In Liverpool, Manchester, and all the large
towns, there were great numbers of Irish residents ; in-
deed, iu every one of them there was what was called an
•. Irish quarter ;" and he spoke from personal knowledge
when he said, that though many of them were steady,
respectable, and industrious, yet a large portion of them
w
country
opposite of all this ; that they brought to this
all those vices that had so long prevailed in Ire-
land, and that they spread influences of a character very
unlavourablQ to the native population, which was of it-
self as quiet, well conducted, and industrious, as that of
any other part of the kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) It was
found that crime and violence prevailed in Lancashire
and Yorkshire to
and outaages werea meatchiefly
t extent, but that those crimes
committed by persons who
had come over from Ireland, because there they found it
impossible to find the meansoin
h of subsistence.----(llenr.)
Another most important t to be considered was, that
wherever an Irishman plantedp foot, no matter in what
rart of the world it was, there h
(ainty.(Elear.)
bitter, implacable enemy—of tehisstood an "nemy—
In the United States of America thereedewere millions
richer of actual Irish or persons of Irish and in
descent; and
in the
that country they exercised an impcorottalgurteisnesfleaunhe
elections of the representatives in
of
ever
there first officer of the American Government. Ifalso
there came a time when questions of a critical nature
arose between Great Britain and the United States, it
was certain that those Irish would throw all the weight
of their influence and clamour into the scale, so that the
peace betwixt the two countries should be disturbed.
(Hear.) Through the misdoings of the Government of
Ireland, or by the misdoings of the population of Ire-
land themselves, these people had been transplanted to
America, and there, 3,000 miles off, having got rid of

they exercised an influence against
their pauperism,
this empire yen times
grey ter than they could have ex-
erted within limits.--/,Hear, hear.) Those particu-
lar instances, b,,,sides ti rose general reasons which might
be urged, all tended to show that either the Government
or the people of Ireland had been greatly at fault. Ile
would admitlt hat both had been at fault. He thought
Government h ad been too negligent of Ireland—though
certainly Brea, ter solicitude had never been shown for
its welfare by t tny other Government than the present—
but by all Governments Ireland had been too negli-
gently dealt with ; and, though the people of Ireland
did not, perhaps, possess some of the qualities which
characterized the industrious inhabitants of this island,
they, nevertheless, exhibited many high and generous
characteristics. They ought not to despair that the
time would come when the population of Ireland would
be on a par with the population of this island. Ireland
had been described as the difficulty of all Governments;
the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tam-
worth had acknowledged that it was his chief diffi-
culty. But the difficulty of remedying the evils of Ire-
land would not be so great as the difficulty which would
yet arise if they were not remedied. Some causes of the
existing difficulty might be found partly in the consti-
tution of the general Government and partly in the local
administration. The Government in this House and
the other was almost entirely an aristocratic Govern-
ment. On the Treasury bench aristocracy was supreme.
Seven Members, being one-half of the Cabinet, sat in
the House of Lords, and every other Member of the
Cabinet was either " Lord" by title or connected with
the peerage. In Parliament, it might be, 14 better men
could not be found; but, looking to human nature as
generally exhibited, it was not to be expected that 14
gentlemen so circumstanced could meet round the coun-
cil-table and discuss with an unbiassed mind the ques-
tion of Ireland as it presented itself to the country and
to the world. The condition of Ireland required two
kinds of remedies;—the one political, and the other so-
cial. It was hard to say where the one question left off, and
the other began. At present, the people throughout three-
fourths of Ireland had a total unbelief in the honesty and
integrity of this Government as regarded its govern-
ment of Ireland. There ought to be some great mea-
sure or measures, which being offered to the people of
Ireland, would afford a complete demonstration that
bygones should be bygones as respected the conduct of
the British Government, and that henceforth an equal
system as between the two countries must be adopted.
So great was his belief of the necessity of those mea-
sures, and his confidence in the excellent results which
would be attained if they were adopted, that he would
venture to explain them again. Ireland had been a
country of jars and turmoils beyond the memory of any
man living, owing chiefly to religious dissensions. They
governed it on that point in a manner totally unknown
in England and Scotland. If they were to govern
England and Scotland as they now governed Ireland—
if they maintained ecclesiastical establishments in the
sister kingdoms as they maintained an ecclesiastical es-
tablishment in Ireland, they ought to establish Prelacy
in Scotland and Catholicism in England. And if they
were to try the experiment in either case, it
would not be a sham but a real insurrection
they would provoke. They must have equality be-
tween the great religious sects of Ireland—between
Protestant and Catholics. On political grounds they
could not defer bringing about that equality. It was
said her Majesty's Government had the intention, if
they could find the people of England napping, to pro-
pose that the Roman Catholic priests should be paid. On
two grounds he objected to that proposition; first, be-
cause he did not think Parliament could, from any funds
it might obtain, contrive to place the Roman Catholic
priests on an equality with the Protestant clergy of
Ireland. And it they could not produce that equality,
the experiment was not worth attempting. It would be
infinitely more easy, infinitely more in accordance with
the principles of political truth and with the real inte-
rests of Ireland, to withdraw the existing establishment
from the position it now occupied, to withdraw so
much of its funds the present application of which
could be proved to be totally unnecessary with refe-
rence to the wants of the people. He did not say they
were to withdraw every sixpence from tho establish-
ment, but they ought to withdraw it from all con-
nexion with the state, and appropriate the funds they
received to some general purpose,—for giving educa-
tion, it might be, under a system such as now existed.
That appropriation would lead to an entire change
of feeling among the people. With respect to the
Parliamentary representation of Ireland, he must say,
after having spent:seventy-three days in a most wearisome
examination involving that question, that the representa-
tion of Ireland was at this moment a fraud. It would
be better if there were no representation. The rates
and taxes to be paid as a condition of exercising the
franchise were so numerous, that it was utterly impos-
sible a constituency could be maintained, and the honest
real opinions of the intelligent classes of Ireland find a
decent representation in the Imperial Parliament. The
system of registration was disgraceful. The questions
of religious equality and of the representation must
both be discussed next session. Political remedies, it
was true, would not feed the hungry, but it would give
an assurance to Ireland that it would be trusted as a por-
tion of the United Kingdom. They would throw oil on
the water. With respect to the social evils of Ireland,
they arose from the way in which the land was owned,
held, and cultivated. There were large tracts in Ireland,
which, if left in the hands of their present possessors
till the end of the world, would never support the
population they ought to support. The true solution of
the problem was to get the lands out of the hands of
those men who were nominal, but not real possessors.
Then the effects of the law of entail and the custom of
primogeniture were not mitigated by counteracting in•
fluences, as in England and Scotland. Were he com-
missioned to propose an arrangement on the subject, he
would establish a court especially for the purpose of ad-
judicating on matters of title and of preparing certain
forms of conveyance, which should render the transfer
of landed property as short a process as the transfer of
railway stock. The state of Ireland had long been
matter of reproach ; some Hon. Members had grown
from boy to man, and still the reproach was the same;
the condition of Ireland was most disgraceful to this
country and Government. It was theirs to think of
Ireland as if it were one of their own counties, to think
of the numbers who had died of starvation, exceed-
ing the numbers that had ever at any time fallen by
the sword in battle, to think of the countless horrors
which were even now growing up in that country, and
to see whether it could not be brought under-the opera-
tion of those laws and principles by which nature in-
tended that nations and individuals should become pro-
vident and industrious. He did not want to puff any
nostrums of his own, though be was supposed to cherish
some peculiar notions with respect to the constitution of
the country; but whether it advanced democracy or
aristocracy, or any other system whatsoever, he would
fling to the winds any prejudice, it he had it, or any
principle almost, if he were not convinced of its sound-
ness, could he thereby do one single thing to hasten by
one single day the time when Ireland might be made
equal to England in the attainment of that comfort and
independence which an industrious people might pos-
sess, and be believed would have, if the Government
were only just.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BROTHERTON thought it was far easier to find
fault, describe evils, and prescribe remedies, than to
carry them out. He would introduce a property tax into
Ireland, and have its produce appropriated for the benefit
of that country.`
Mr. LABOUCHERE suggested that the House
should consent to give his Right Hon. Friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer an opportunity of making his
financial statement in Committee, before they entered
further on a discussion involving so great a variety of
considerations as that which had arisen with respect to
the state of Ireland.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL felt it his duty to make some
remarks on the subject now before the House, when he
bore in mind the fearful prospects for Ireland in the
coming winter.
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the Hon. Gentleman would
not persevere. If he allowed the House to go into Com-
mittee of Ways and Means, it would afford his Right
Hon. Friend an opportunity of making his financial
-statement, in which he must take occasion to advert to
the subject of Ireland.
THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT.
The House then went into Committee of Ways and
Means, Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, wbo
was frequently inaudible, then rose and said,—l am
afraid, after the debate on the state of Ireland, the sub-
ject I am about to introduce, although of more general
importance, will not excite so much interest, especially
among Members connected with that country. Never-
theless, it is requisite, for many reasons, that the state-
ment I am about to make should be made to night; be-
cause, according to the the forms of the House, we can-
not go into Committee of Ways and Means on Saturday,
and it would materially impede the progress of public
business if I were not allowed to make my financial
statement before the close of the week. This was the
only reason why my Noble Friend suggested the pro-
priety of going into Committee of Ways and
Means without further delay, and not in the
slightest degree because we were insensible to
the importance of the debate, or were unprepared
to give our best attention to the condition of Ire-
land. Having stated this much, which I hope will
satisfy the gentlemen from Ireland that really good reasons
existed for the course my Noble Friend has taken in cutting
short the debate, I will at once turn totk3, mportant subject
of the Committee of Ways and Means; a nd, first of all, I
will state what is the financial condition of, he country and
the means which the Government have adopted and will
adopt in that respect. In doing so I am aware I shall not
have much that is new to state to the Committee, for, in the
first place, the whole of the estimates have been voted ; the
amount of expenditure was perfectly well known to the
House. At the beginning of the session, and at various
other periods, statements were made which put the House in
possession of the then precise state of affairs. But, although
I have not much to state that may be novel, it is desirable
that I should place before the Committee, in one view, the
result of the operations of the session—what the expendi-
ture will amount to, what we expect the income to be,
and how I propose to make the income equal to the expen-
diture. This I am anxious to do as clearly, as accurately,
and as concisely as possible. Gentlemen will probably re-
member that when my Noble Friend made his statement
early in the session the prospects which he held out to the
country were as follows. He estimated the probable receipts
at 51,950,000/. ; he stated the debt and other charges on the
consolidated fund at 31,280,6001.; he took the current ex-
penditure as exhibited in the estimates at 21,820,441/., mak-
ing an expenditure belonging to the year of 53,101,0411 He
stated the amount of expenditure which had been incurred
on account of the Kafir war and the excess of naval esti-
Tthaetieto.s in the
the preceding year at 1,345,4111., making altogether
54.446,452/. ; and he intimated the intention of the Govern-
ment to make a further development of the militia force of
which would occasion an expense of 150,0001.
making the expenditure of the year as then proposed
po;ar thetzs l order to meet this expenditure the pi•
°LGovernment was to raise the income-

tax from 3 to 5 per cent. for a period of two years. This
was estimated to produce 3,500,0001. My Noble Friend then
proposed to remit the duty on copper. by which a loss of
revenue was expected to the extent of 40,000/. The esti-
mated income then was 54,710,0001., the expenditure
5 1,596,452/., leaving a balance of 113,5481. The proposal
e then made was, as I have said, a temporary increase of
taxation for a period of two years, and the reason for pro-
po.sing that temporary increase was that a great portion of
the expenditure incurred was for temporary purposes. There
was the expenditure for the Kafir war, which was closed,
and the naval excess had occurred in the preceding year, for
which it was necessary to replace in the Exchequer the
moneys which had been withdrawn; and with regard to
a considerable portion of the increased expense, it was occa-
sioned mainly by heavy works in the dockyards, which had
been begun, not by us, but by a preceding Government, but
which certainly it was desirable to carry on, and which I
believe it would be, after all, most desirable to com-
plete with strict economy at an early day. Feeling
this, the Government thought it necessary, with a view
to meet this expenditure, to make heavy demands ou the
resources of the country, and for the period of two years
we proposed an increase of the income-tax. That proposal
certainly was not received with any favour by the House. I
am perfectly prepared to admit that the circumstances under
which the country was labouring, the distress through which
they had gone during the six or eight mouths preceding,
formed a very good reason why they should have been un-
willing at that time to submit to additional taxation. The
circumstances, too, which had occurred on the continent
shortly after that proposal was made, throwing as they did
into the greatest uncertainty the whole prospects of the coun-
try, not only politically, but commercially and financially,
tended to make us more willing at that time to abandon our
proposal for additional taxation, leaving to a future time to
announce what other resource we should adopt. The aban-
donment of that proposal for additional taxation made
it necessary for us to review the whole finances and
taxation of the country, in order that we might take
such an altered course as, in the altered circumstances,
might appear advisable. I now propose to state to the Com-
mittee what that course was, and the result at which we have
arrived. With the permission of the Committee, I will put
aside all considerations of past expenditure, and deal only
with the income of the year as compared with the expendi-
ture; for it will be observed that, both with regard to the
expenditure for the Kafir war and the naval excess, they
have been defrayed by moneys in the Exchequer, leaving a
balance of 6,778,3361. in the Exchequer. They were in-
cluded in the expenditure as stated in the balance-sheet of
the sth of April; and the moneys so advanced must be re-
placed. The first object of the Government was to revise the
expenditure. It must be observed that in the course of the
two or three preceding years there had been no inconsider-
able increase of expenditure—not tin increase of expendi-
ture proposed by ourselves, but principally before
we came into office. I find that, in the year
1846, an increase of the estimates and of charge as com-
pared with the preceding year, was no less than
1,610,000 e, exclusive of those charges which, to the extent
of 345,500/, were transferred from the county rates and local
taxation to the general revenue, making in all an increased
expenditure of 1,955,5001. in the estimates of 1846--in round
numbers, nearly 2,000,0001. The Hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for the West Riding of Yorkshire, had said very truly
not very long ago that it was not this Government nor any
other Government that was responsible for this increased ex-
penditure. The House of Commons had concurred in its
propriety, and in many instances had pressed that increased
expenditure on the Government. The increased estimate
was passed with little opposition—the country concurred in
it, and the Hon. Gentleman said, very wisely, if blame there
was, all participated in it. Their duty, therefore, was not to
recriminate one on another, but in the present state of the
country to unite, to set their shoulders to the wheel, for the
purpose of reducing expenditure, so far as it can be done
without impairing the efficiency of our establishments. I
think, moreover, that in respect to the object for which the
greatest increase of expenditure had taken place, namely, in
the maintenance of our national defences, the House of
Commons has only carried out what appeared to be the feel-
ing of the country. Last year, and the year before, there
was a very general feeling of alarm throughout the country.
Not only gentlemen in the House, but the public generally,
had a strong feeling of that kind, and in the proposals which
were made in this House for increasing our means of na-
tional defence, both the Government of the day and the
House of Commons itself fairly represented the opinions of
the country. That opinion, no doubt, has since changed. I
myself was never one of the alarmists. I never took a very
desponding view on that subject. But such was the general
opinion; and it is now desirable that these measures should
be carried only more slowly into execution than was then
thought advisable by the House and the country. With a
view to reduction the first step taken by the Government
was to appoint two Committees to look into the expenses of
the country—one having
,the miscellaneous estimates, the
other the naval and military estimates, submitted to them.
We have now before us two able reports on these subjects,
from which great information will be derived. As I stated
before, those Committees were not appointed for the purpose
of avoiding responsibility on the part of the Government.
But I do think the revision of our expenditure from time to
time is a matter of the greatest importance, if it were only
to afford to Hon. Members that knowledge which will
enable them without loss of time to master and discuss the
estimates with intelligence and discrimination. Having ap-
pointed these Committees, the Government immediately
gave their earnest attention to the subject, and it was my
duty to call on all the departments and insist that they
should act with the utmost economy. With the greatest
readiness the fullest information was given at the time to
those Committees. In one point, namely, the amount of
force, no reduction was made. That was absolutely neces-
sary, as we thought, for the safety of the country, and the
House of Commons have confirmed that opinion by the
largest majorities in regard to both descriptions of force.
I do not think, from reflection on the circumstances which
have since taken place, that we could have proposed a
reduction on that head. Both with regard to the sister
country and the manufacturing districts there have
been constant demands for military protection, and we
should have been less able to afford that protection to those
parties who had a right to demand it, if we had not
had a force fully as large as the House of Commons
voted on the proposition of the Government. But with
respect to other portions of the expenditure. it is pos-
sible we may be able to make considerable reductions. I
don't wish to deceive the House, however, by saying that I
think it good economy to make all the reductions we pro-
pose, if we could avoid it. On the contrary, lam of opi-
nion that it would be better economy in the end to pro-
ceed at a more rapid rate with the works we have on hand
than to defer the expenditure, and spread it over a longer
period.—(Hear, hear.) But, on the other hand, it is some-
times advisable to deter the expenditure and spread it over a
longer period, in order to bring the yearly outlay within the
means of the country, and therefore we have agreed to do
so in the present instance. In the course we have pursued,
therefore, I wish to state fairly and frankly what my opinion I
is. I think we were justified in making the proposals we did by
the soundest principles of finance; but the House not having
concurred in those proposals, we have endeavoured to meet the
views of the House by reducing to the utmost extent we could
those portions of the expenditure which were at all suscep-
tible of it. The reductions which we have effected are as
follows :—The vote on the navy is 208,0001. less than that
which we originally submitted to Parliament. The vote for
the army, including the old militia and commissariat, is
150,2001. less; the vote for the ordnance 123,000/. less; the
miscellaneous estimates, 235,0001. less. The proposal to em-
body a further militia force having been given up, there is a
saving on that head of 150,0004 The whole of those re-
ductions amount to 866,200/. But the increased pay of the
pensioners having required a sum of 25,0001., and certain
additions to the miscellaneous estimates a further sum of
13,2001., the actual reductions amount only to 828,000/. This
is the amount of the reductions upon the original estimates
we submitted to Parliament. I now come to the expenditure.
The expenditure for the year is as follows :-31,280,6001. for
the debt, and other charges on the consolidated fund;
7,518,610/. for the navy; 7,012,795/. for the army; 2,801,760/.
for the ordnance; 3,783,570/. for the miscellaneous expendi-
ture; 25,0001. for the pensioners; making in all 52,422,335/.
My Noble Friend in his statement at the beginning of the
session estimated the receipts at 51,210,0001. But an ar-
rangement having been made for carrying on the service of
the present year to pay the appropriations in aid at once into
the Exchequer, instead of allowing them to accumulate,
and adding them to the revenue of the following year, a sum
of 500,0001. becomes available this year, in addition to what
we calculated upon. I have stated before, also owing to
the excellent barley crop of last year, malting has been car-
ried on to a much greater extent than usual, and has conse-
quently helped to increase the excise revenue. This and
other causes have brought an increase of revenue above what
we anticipated of 340,0001. In addition to this, we have
received 80,000/. as the last remnant of the China money,
making altogether 52,130,0001. The deficiency of income
below the expenditure is therefore 292,335/.
This, consider-
ing our prospects at the beginning of the session, is, I ven-
ture to think, not unsatisfactory. I stated to the House
early in the present year, that I hoped they would give us
credit for an anxious desire to reduce the expenditure as
much as possible. I stated that it would not be possible to
maintaining
insitnagtetdh tehat efficiency
reduce the expenditure summarily and at once—that I, in-
deed, thought it would be exceedingly bad economy to do
so—and that I hoped they would not press us to
carry the
reductions further than was really consistent with the best
the
yn dNwoibt
Noble
o interests
our
consi-
derable reductions might be carried into effect next year,
but that he could hold out little hope of much reducPteiorn,
being effected in the present year. I have shown the
Committee, however, that even in the present year we
have effected reductions to the amount of no less a sum
than 828,0001., which I hope the Committee will accept as
an earnest of our desire to reduce the expenditure as far
as possible.— (Hear, hear.) In the present state of the
continent, and, considering how our trade is affected by the
state of affairs there, it is very difficult to anticipate what
our revenue may be next year; but taking the year as an
ordinarily favourable one, I anticipate that, with the reduc-
tions which we shall be able to carry into effect, the income
will more than equal the expenditure. I have now stated
the ordinary expenditure of the country as compared with its
income for the year. I have now to advert to the extraor-
dinary expenditure. In the first place, there is a sum of
1,100,0001. for the Kafir war, and 245,4111. for the naval
excess, making, together, 1,345,4111. Then there is a sum
of 262,5451. for Irish distress, and 130,9651. for providing
medical assistance for the destitute emigrants landed in Ca-
nada, making, together, 1,738,921/. The total expenditure
of the year is, therefore, 54,161,2564, and the income being
52,130,000 e, the deficiency is 2,031,2561.
If I followed the
course which has been followed before, I might propose to the
Committee to charge this deficiency upon the consolidated
fund, leaving the charges to be met at the end of the year
by the balances in the Exchequer; but I do not think
myself justified in doing so. The House has already
sanctioned the advance of considerable sums from that
source. The Committee will remember that some
time ago it was agreed to advance the SUM of
2,000,0001. for the purpose of drainage in England and
Scotland, and a further sum of 1,500,0001. for land im-
provement in Ireland, making together a sum of 3,500,0001. ;
of this sum there has actually been advanced for England
and Scotland 180,000/. ; and for Ireland, 330,0004 ; to-
gether, 510,0001. ; leaving nearly 3,000,0001. still to be
advanced. It was, of course, impossible to say how much of
this may be demanded in the course of the year, but it may
probably amount to one-third. As the works proceed, the
charge upon thesonsolidated fund will necessarily increase,
because while there is_ grest delay at the commencement of
the works, when once they are in progress they will be car-
ried on more rapidly, and the demand for the money to du
so will be proportionately great. There is also a charge upon
the consolidated fund of 70,000/. for New Zealand ; another
' chare•e of 170,000/. for Trinidad and Guiana, and another
of 50,0001. for Tobago; making, with some minor sums, a
total charge on that head say of 300,000/. With respect to
the sums advanced fpr drainage and the improvement of the
land, I need not say that we have ample security. I have
reason to believe that the average improvement will be about
eight per cent. or. the outlay, thereby supplying a source of
increased income to the parties who have borrowed the money.
With respect tolreland,can,
there I think, be no possible
mode of good
improving that country half so as that of put
tang it in the powerno of the proprietors themselves to improve
their land, and not only so, but putting them in a position of
benefiting the neighbourhood in which their estates are
situated, by furnishing labour to the people, and acting as a
benefactor to them in the most wholesome and sound of all

AY

ways—improving their character, at the same time that they
are improving their condition.—(Hear, hear.) Having thus
stated the sums with which the consolidated fund is charge-
able at present, I have now to state that the plan which I
propose for meeting the deficiency of 2,000,0001. is this—
viz., to replace that sum in the Treasury by borrowing in
the market. On reverting to the last occasion on which
such a measure was necessary, I find that in the year 1842
this course was taken. In that year the estimated deficiency
of income from the repeal and reduction of duties and other
causes was 3,780,0001. The estimated amount of taxes
imposed was 4,300,0001. Deducting one-half of the income-
tax not receivable within the year, 1,850,0001., the amount
receivable within the year was 2,450,000/. The probable
deficiency in April 5, 1843, was 1,330,000/. The actual de-
ficiency, however, was 2,4`21,000. Now the course taken at
that time to meet the deficiency was to borrow money by
issuing deficiency bills; and to such an extent was this
done that on the sth of January, 1843, the sum borrowed
amounted to 8,5€0,7291. ; and in the course of the ensuing
April the amount borrowed was 7,549,4401. Such was the
provision for meeting the deficiency of income in 1842.
On the 29th of April, 1844, I find the then Chancellor of the
Exchequer (Mr. Goulburn), stating to the House that that
deficiency had been completely extinguished by the surplus
of the succeeding years. The Right Hon, Gentleman said :
" It will be in the recollection of the House that, at the close
of the last year, I had to announce to the House the tact of
a very considerable deficiency of income. I recommended to
the House to make no provision whatever for the payment
of that deficiency,—not to raise money by loan for the pur-
pose of getting rid of it, but to leave it to be defrayed out of
the surpluses of future years, as circumstances might from
time to time allow. And lam now happy to announce to
the House that the.deficit of last year, amounting altogether
to 2,749,0001., has been cleared off and discharged out of the
produce of the revenue of the present year." Now, Ido not
mean to disguise from the House that this is a dangerous
course to pursue, and that but for the state of affairs at home
and abroad would not be at all justifiable. In proposing this
course on the present occasion, I find I am only doing that
which the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tam-
worth did in 1841. I find that on that occasion the
money raised to satisfy grants on supply and interest on Ex-
chequer-bills was 2,467,432/. I propose in the same way to
meat the deficiency of the present year by taking power to
raise the amount by the issue of Exchequer-bills and the
sale of stock. No person feels more than msyelf that in
ordinary circumstances this is a most objectionable course to
pursue.—(Hear, hear.) We thought it so objectionable that
we proposed to meet the deficiency by increased taxation.
The House, however, did not think it advisable to accede
to that proposal, although the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Tarnworth—no light authority on these matters
—thought that we had good reason for making the pro-
posal, but since• the House and the country are not pre-
pared to submit to increased taxation for a few years for
the purpose of defraying a temporary excess of expendi-
ture, I do not, on the other hand, think I should be justified
in proposing a permanent tax for the purpose of covering
that expenditure. I still think that for a temporary excess
a temporary tax would have been the course most advisable;
but that proposal •having been rejected by the House,
the next best course is to borrow the money in the
way I have proposed. I do not think the circum-
stances in which the proposal is made are of an ordinary
kind.—(Hear, hems) In the course of the last two
years we have been called upon to deal with the ques-
tions of a famine in Ireland—commercial distress in Eng-
land and Scotland—and a revolution throughout Europe,
which has affected this country both commercially and
financially in no inconsiderable degree. (Hear, hear.)
I say nothing of insurrections at home. In such extraordi-
nary circumstances, therefore, I conceive that we are justified
in taking a course which would not be justifiable in ordinary
years.—(Hear.) I do not believe that the history of civili-
zation records a greater destruction of human food than that
which occurred in 1846, or such a demand for capital to re•
place that food—l will not say that the famine of 1847 was
of a similar nature, but it certainly ranks among the severest
pressures that ever took place. Just when we were recover-
in from the pressure of that distress, and when symptoms of
reviving trade were appearing throughout the country, a
series of revolutions took place on the continent of Europe,
which, independently of other evils inflicted on this country,
put a check upon our export trade ; and if anybody will re-
fer to the returns of our exports, he will see to what extent
they have fallen of in consequence of the cessation of the
continental demand. Everybody will also recollect the of
fect of the blockade of the northern ports in consequence of
the dispute between Denmark and Germany.—( Hear.) All
these matters have seriously effected our trade, and it must
be the anxious desire of all of us to see an early termina-
tion put to these unfortunate occurrences. And having said
this, I will only observe further, that if any one reflects upon
it, lie will see the deep interest which this country has in the
universal prosperity of other countries. I have heard it
stated myself that these occurrences abroad benefit this
country; but they do no such thing. On the narrowest
ground of our selfish interest it is infinitely more for our
benefit that other countries should be happy and prosperous,
than that they should be the reverse; and therefore no effort
we can make for the settlement of those questions can be
more useful to those countries, to the interests of humanity
generally, or to the commercial and selfish interest of this
country, than that of promoting their trade and prosperity.
—( Hear, hear.) Of course, in the uncertainty which pre-
vails with respect to the state of affairs on the continent, it
is difficult to anticipate what expenditure may be required ;
but I hope not only that we shall be able to reduce the
expenditure, but that the revenue will considerably increase.
I wish to show to the House how, even under existing
circumstances, the revenue has kept up to an amount
which has filled me with astonishment. Comparing 1845-6
with 1847-8, I find that the receipts in the former
period were 51,258,465/., and in the latter 51,627,736/., being
nearly 400,000/. more than in the for Mer year. —( Hear.)
At the beginning of 1847 it became my duty to state to the
House what the probable income of the year would be. Of
course, it was impossible to anticipate the convulsions which
have since taken place; but I stated, early in February, that
the estimated ordinary revenue for the year 1847-1848 was
52,065,0001. Well, in spite of these convulsions and the con-
sequent stagnation of trade, the actual produce of the or-
dinary revenue was 51,627,000/., being only 438,000/.
less than that which I estimated it at the beginning
of the year.—(Hear, bear.) When I mention that a
diminution of no less a sum than 1,400,000/. took place
on malt and spirits, the Committee will see to what extent
the general revenue must have been affected.—(Hear.) I
am happy to say that, taking the present quarter so far as
it goes, the prospects of the revenue are anything but un-
satisfactory. I find that the decrease on the whole or-
dinary revenue from April 8 to the middle of August, 1848,
as compared with 1847, is only 115,0001.; while there has
been an increase of the Customs' duties in the same time of
500,000 a 1 portion of that was owing to the receipt of corn
duties which were not receivable in the previous year;
but, excluding the corn duties, the increase is 22,000/.
—(Hear, hear.) Without anticipating too much, and
without being too confident with respect, to the
future, I think that the facts I have stated are
satisfactory, as showing how, even under the adverse cir •
cumstances of this year, the revenue has maintained itself;
also satisfactory,
country;
and that the receipts have not fallen off so much as, looking
to all the circumstances, might have been anticipated.
for,showingthe great power of
although our exports have
fallen off, our imports have remained at a high point--a
proof of the benefit of the cheapness which during the last
They arept
consumption
mn of
twelve months had enabled the great mass of the people to
provide themselves with the necessaries of life. In another
respect the circumstances of the country have been most
satisfactory, and for which we cannot be too thankful—l
mean the state of tranquillity and peace which has prevailed
at home.—(Hear, hear.) For, if we refer to what has taken
place abroad _though the last thing we have reason to look
at with satisfaction is the distress of our neighbours—yet, if
we compare the receipts of the Customs' duties of France
with the receipts of this country, the result is most gratify-
ing, and ought to be a subject of deep reflection with those
who have at any time shown a disposition to disturb the
public peace amongst us.—(Hear, hear.) From that com-
parison they must see what an infinite disadvantage it is
to themselves, and what misery must be entailed upon those
who violate the public tranquillity.—(Hear, hear.) A
short time ago an account of the receipts of the French Cus-
toms fell into my hands, by which it appears that, during
the first five months of the year (1847) the receipts were in
pounds sterling 2,191,000 ; while for the first five months
of the present year (1848) the receipts were 1,290,000/,
being a falling off of 901,0004 or 5-12ths in the latter period
as compared with the former. Now, the amount of Customs'
duties received in this country for the corresponding five
months in the year 1847 was 8,308,0001.. and the amount re-
ceived for the same five months of this year was 8,207,0001.,
being a falling off of only 101,000/or say 1-83 d part of the
produce of the first period. lam sorry to say that, looking
at the French Customs' receipts in the month of May last,
the falling off was, as compared with the receipts of the pre-
sent month of May, not less than one-half. This great
deficiency in the receipts of the French Customs' duties is
unquestionably to be attributed to the extraordinary check
which the disturbances of the public peace in that country
have given to industry and the employment of capital among
that people, and demonstrates how great are the sacrifices
which a nation is compelled to undergo where such revolu-
tionary movements occur.—(Hear.) Thank God, nothing of
that kind has happened here—(Cheers)—and that we have
reason to congratulate ourselves for the state of peace and
tranquillity which has prevailed in this country, conferring
as such a state ever does so many benefits upon all classes,
but more especially the working classes of the community.—
(Cheers.) With regard to the state of trade, without pre-
' tending to say that it is in a most flourishing condition, I shall
feel fully justified in declaring it to be in a sound and satis-
factory state. I find that the drain of bullion from the Bank,
which was taking place some few weeks ago, has ceased; and
that the amount of bullion has not only been maintained, but
in the course of the last week has been augmented. In the
week ending the 12th of this month, the amount of bullion in
the Bank was 13,365,000/. ; while in the week ending on the
19th, it was 13,371,000/. ; there being at both periods a re-
serve of 9,000,000/. In considering this criterion of the con-
dition of the country one must always carefully look at the I
state of the Bank immediately after the period for paving the
dividends. Now, I find the amount of bullion in the Bank '
on the 19th of this month was about the same as it was' on
the 20th of May last; in the former period the amount
being, as I have already stated, 13,371,000/, and in the lat-
ter 13,379,000/. ; both periods being after the payment of the
interest on the public debt. I think, therefore, we may
assume that the state of trade, though not very prosperous,
nor the demand for labour very great, is upon the whole sa-
tisfactory, especially when we bear in mind the cheapness of
all commodities, and particularly of the raw materials upon
which labour is employed. At all events, I think it may be
fairly stated that we are in that position in which we may
readily avail ourselves of any favourable turn which a more
tranquil state of affairs on the continent of Europe may open
to us.--(Hear, hear.) Ido not think I should properly per-
form my duty if I did not advert to that topic about which
every Hon. Member must be naturally very anxious--namely
the prospects of the country in regard to the produce of the
harvest. Considering the very unsettled state of the
weather, the condition of the crops must necessarily be a
source of great concern and anxiety. Without going into
any lengthened details, I will state generally the informa-
tion which I have received upon the subject. I.arn s'?rry
then, to say that in the west and south of England there
is considerable danger of a failure of the potato crop;
but from the north I have not received any account that,
as yet, there are signs of injury to the root, at least to
any great extent. The same also may be said
with regard to Scotland,awhere, I understand, the crops
have not hitherto suffered injury. There are, however, very
different accounts as to the harvest; but I cannot
discover
from them that in general much harm has been done. In
some parts of the country, more especially in the west, it is
stated that, in consequence of the wetness of the weather, the
corn hail sprouted; but from the north of England and front
favourable, Scotland the accounts are much snore_ and there
is no reason to expect that any very great damage has been
sustained. Indeed, I believe that in respect to rain, which
has been so very plentiful in this metropolis, there has been
a want of it in some of the more northern
parts of the coun-
try, and that the turnip crops have, in consequence, sus-
tained injury. Upon the whole, however, I see no reason
for any great anxiety being felt in regard to the general pro-
duce of :the harvest so far as this country is concerned.
With respect to Ireland the accounts are exceedingly vari-
ous. Even at the same place the prospects at different
periods have been very different in their nature. But it
would be quite impossible for me to go into -details;
•

and perhaps I shall best discharge my duty by stating
what I believe to be the general result of the accounts which
have reached me. I believe there is hardly any part of Ire-
land in which the potato disease has not in a greater or less
degree shown itself. First, in the south the disease has ap-
peared and disappeared and appeared again, according to the
change in the weather; and in the north the accounts re-
ceived are equally various. That in many places the root is
injured lam afraid is too true. The early crop has in various
instances escaped; but, with regard to the late crop, present
appearances are not so favourable. The reports, however,
from all parts of Ireland are, that so much larger a quantity
of ground has been planted with potatoes this year than in
almost any preceding year, that, even allowing for a very
great loss from disease, still there is :no reason to apprehend
that there will be any want of human food in the country,
the supply being expected to be at least as great as in former
years when the crops were comparatively uninjured. I find,;
on referring to a Mayo newspaper which was put into my!
hands this morning, that this is precisely the view taken as
to the crops in that county. The writer says—
" All the tops of the late plantings are becoming withered
and black. We are not, however,. without hope as regards
the early ones, a,z, while the stalks are affected, the tubers
continue generally excellent. Should the disease progress,
this country is ruined. On the other hand, should it please
God to stay the spread of the disease, from the quantity of
ground under,potatoe,- mqch of the evil. of the last famine
would belorgotten amongst us. _ . .

It is, however, very difficult to ascertain accurately the truth
of the case, with regard to the crops, from one year to
another. There always is—and not unnaturally so—a ten-
dency on the part of certain interested parties to exaggerate
the deficiency of tthe crops ; and I am afraid that in some
parts of the Fbuntry the population not unfrequently avail
themselves, by the means put in their power, of misrepre-
senting the actual state of the produce of their farms, of
working upon the benevolent feelings of their landlords, who
do not possess a sufficient control over their tenantry, and
thus throwing themselves upon eleemosynary aid instead
of doing their best to render any such assistance unnecessary.
Doubtless numbers of people have been saved from starva-
tion by the timely help afforded them by their landlords ;
but it cannot be concealed that many do, instead of exerting
themselves, make representations as to the deficiency of their
crops, in order that they may create a feeling of sympathy
towards them on the part of their landlords. I therefore
think—as my Noble Friend has already stated—that ac-
cording to the present amount of information obtained as to
the real state of the crops in Ireland, it is impossible to
foresee what amount of produce will be available for human
food in that country. It is, however, quite certain, that
upon all former occasions, when a scarcity has been assumed
to exist, and indeed when it has really existed, there has been
a much larger quantity of food in the country than anybody
has at first represented there to be. So, in the present in-
, stance, my opinion is, unless, indeed, there be such a failure
of the crops as to unexampled even by the year 1846, that
there will be an amount of food in Leland adequate to sup-
port the people of that country for a considerable time.—
(Hear, hear.) After what the Hon. Member for Montrose
has already stated, and after what has fallen from my Noble
Friend on a former occasion when speaking as to
the state of the crops in Ireland, I think it would
on the one hand be unjust to the suffering people
of ,this country, and fatal to the ultimate welfare
of Ireland, if any sweeping measures of relief were at
once to be adopted; I hope and believe that it will not be
needed; but, on the other hand, I think it would be quite
wrong, and would be an act of cruelty, if under the
extremest emergency we were to say that no assistance
or relief whatsoever should be given to a suffering
and starving population.--(Cheers.) With these views I
consider it would be inexpedient to hold out an expectation
of any larger assistance being afforded, while I hope that to
a limited extent the House will place confidence in us,
and enable us to that extent to dispense such assistance as
may be rendered necessary. As to what the result will
actually be, no one can pretend to foretell. It may be worse
than the former visitation. I hope and pray not; but if it
be, then it will be our bounden duty immediately to refer
the case to Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) Without wishing,
then, on the one hand, to hold out any general expectation
of relief, yet, on the other hand, feeling that relief ought to
be given where it would be utterly impossible that life should
be maintained without it, I think for the present we must
wait till we see what the result of the harvest shall be. We
must know what the produce of the crops is, and what
the circumstances of the country are, before we can decide
what shall be the course we ought to pursue.—( Hear, hear.)
Ido not think it is necessary for me to make any further
statement to the Committee. I therefore now place in your
hands, Sir, the resolutions which I have to propose.
Mr. HUME could not for one join in the cheers of con-
gratulation with which the speech of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had been received, because no prospect had been held
out of env, reduction being made in the national establish-
ments. Not a shilling of the public expenditure was in-
tended to be saved. On the contrary, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had congratulated the country that those large estab-
lishments were supported by a great majority of their repre-
sentatives, and he declared that he was not disposed so pro-
inise'any reduction. To another portion of the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman he (Mr. Hume) entertained a very
strong objection —he alluded to the intention of raising a loan
of 2,000,000/. ; and for what? In order to maintain a large
standing army and a naval establishment in time of peace.
It really seemed that the Government considered it necessary
to keep the public mind in a continual state of alarm,
and to regard it as imperative for the general safety that
every man should be in arms against his neighbour. The
mode, too, in which the loan was intended to be raised was
very objectionable. Selling stock was a very easy way of
getting rid of difficulties ; but the Government ought to
borrow money at the market price of the day, and then
when it became plentiful they would have an oppor-
tunity of paying it off. By not adopting that plan, every
loan that had hitherto been borrowed had been borrowed at
a great loss to the country.
Lord G. BENTINCK did not think there was anything in
the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon
which the House could congratulate him. It appeared to
him (Lord G. Bentinck) that a more insolvent statement
could not have been made. The only consolation the Right
Honourable Gentleman seemed to feel was, that things were
so bad that they must soon get better. For his part, he
thought that the best foundation the Right Hon. Gentleman
had for his consolation was very much that of a certain
Gallant Knight, Sir Hudibras, when he found himrelf in the
village stocks. His only solace was that his dog of fortune
was so low

• " That either it must quickly end,
Or turn about again and mend."
, lle was not quite sure that he correctly understood the state-
ment of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Committee had
r not been told whether the corn duties were included in his
statement or not.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to in-
form his Noble Friend that the corn duties were not included
in the amount of his anticipated receipts. The amount
which he had set down for the Excise and Customs was
500,0001, and there had been upon the latter source of re-
venue an increase of 22,0001., exclusive of the duties on corn
and sugar.
Lord G. BENTINCK resumed—There had been—thanks
to the temporary restoration of the principle of the corn-law
—an addition to the revenue of 280,000 i., therefore the coun-
try was nearly 300,00 W. better than it would have been had
that event not occurred. It must be fresh in the recollection
of the House that on the first financial statement which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer made he acknowledged to a de-
ficiency of 3,000,0007., and they must equally well recollect
that the manner in which.the Government proposed to meet
that deficiency was by imposing an income•tax, from which
they expected to derive. 3,500,000/. But the House would
not agree to make such an addition to the income-tax, and
the scheme was therefore abandoned. In return for this,
' however, they were told that under the head of Excise there
had been an increase of 500,000/.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged his
Noble Friend's pardon; what he had said was this, that
since the month of May there had been an increase on both
Excise and Customs amounting to 500,000 i., and that in the
Customs alone there had been an increase of 22,000/. over the
corresponding period in the preceding year, namely, from
February till August, and that sum of 22,000/. was exclusive
of the duties levied on corn and sugar.
Lord G. BENTINCK resumed—What, after all, was the
plan of the Government? It was what they were pleased to
call selling stock, which, in fact, was selling something that
had only an imaginary existence—it was a system of flying
kites—it was raising money and looking forward to increased
revenue for the means of reimbursement. But the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer forgot to tell them whence the in-
crease of revenue was to come to which he looked so confi-
dently for an augmented public income. Upon what rational
grounds he could rest such hopes it was difficult to imagine,
seeing that more than one of the present sources of revenue
must speedily cease, for example, the corn duties, which
were coming in at the rate of 670,000/., they must cease on
the Ist of February; that surely was not an increase, but a
falling off. Then, though the sugar duties might hold their
ground, there was not the least prospect of their increasing.
On all hands, then, there was a consideroble probability of a
diminution, and no prospect, that he could see, of any in-
crease. In their financial operations, the present Govern-
ment sought to ape Sir Robert Peel ; but they seemed to
the 1842,
forget that when he borrowed money inlyear _
he was able to impose a property-tax, which produced
no less a sum than 5,500,000/. ; that Minister made reduc-
tions in the duty on timber and various other articles,
but then he was able to meet those reductions with an in-
come-tax. Unfortunately,
tol th edmimeasinizsrheetheef the
Further he might mention ano-
present Government had hao wtendencyl
re-
sources of the country:
ther source of revenue which was soon likely to end, he re-
ferred to the money coming to us from China. There'was
an end to that money, and in everything which the
Government postponed there was to be an increased Charge
with decreasing means; thus our prospects every day became
more and more obscured; and yet, in the face of this, the
conduct of the Government was most extraordinary, as •was
evident from a return presented to the House within the last
few days. From that, it appeared that though there had
been a diminished receipt in - the 'Customs of not less than
half a million, yet there had been an increase of officers and
of coast-guard not less than 60 in number, thus augment-
ing the expense of collecting a decreasing branch of the
revenue. But he should now say no more on this point,—
the budget before them had .been brought forward at
a period when the matter might almost as well have
been .altogether postponed,, and the budget of 1848 amal-
gamated with that of 1849. The were at present about
to separate for four or five months with an acknow-
ledged deficiency of 2,000,000/. at the least. Now, these
prospects, apart from any other consideration, were most
discouraging-and. on the whole, he musts be permitted to
say that he had never heard a statement from any Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer which could be considered less
satisfactory than the speech that the House had just heard;
nor could any statement be less a subject of congratula-
tion either to himself or the country,
than the speech of
night.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL wished to say a few words with
regard to Ireland. No doubt in some
parts of the country
the gloomy anticipations which had been entertained
would not be realised to the full extent. The potato
disease was perhaps not so active or malignant as it had
formerly been; but it was to be feared that it was
making a steady progress; and it was much to be
apprehended that if famine visited the country to anything
like the extent that was threatened, the people would be in
a most frightful condition, inasmuch ag in the year 1846 and
1847 they possessed resources from which in the autumn and
winter of 1848 they could not hope to derive any advantage.
If to scarcity the evils of cholera were added, nothing but
desolation and death would be seen throughout the land.
The case of Ireland was most melancholy; it called for ex-
treme and anxious attention, the more especially as the re-
cent attempts to create disturbance were not the acts of the
people, they were merely the proceedings of rash, mad, and
criminal persons. As regarded the conduct of the Govern-
ment, it was in this matter most merciful. He had often felt
it his painful duty to censure the conduct of Ministers in
their Irish policy, but he was bound in fairness and candour
to admit that they had been most merciful in not intro-
ducing martial law amongst the people of that unhappy
country, thus preserving themselves from the reproach which
other Governments in similar circumstances had incurred ;
and he earnestly hoped that the merciful course with which
they had commenced would be continued.
Sir IL WILLOUGEIBY observed, that all they had heard
amounted merely to a postponement for one year for the im-
position of fresh taxes, and be feared that mutually the

whole matter must end in the imposition of fresh taxes, for
the only thing that the Ministers seemed able to do was to
11 go on borrowing more money. On referring to a paper re-
cently presented to the House, he found that the additions
to the national debt, from the Ist of January, 1847, to the
Ist of January, 1848, were as follows—deficiency, 2,956,983/. ;
mcney spent in Ireland, 4,976,276/., making a total of
7.933,259/. ; and even that, after all, was not the real deficiency,
for the whole of the money sent to Ireland was borrowed,
and England imposed upon herself, by that operation, a per-
manent annual expenditure of 200,0001. a-year. It was
quite evident that the country could not go on in that way
much longer ; and he regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not then in his place
that the House might learn from him how much he intended
to add to the funded and the unfunded debt. The Noble
Lord had, upon a former occasion, said that when the defi-
ciency amounted to so much as 2,000,0001. that there should
be no loan, no petty device; that taxes should be found to
meet the deficiency. Now, when the Noble Lord was beaten
upon the tax that he had proposed, he ought to have sub-
mitted to the House some other scheme. The present plan
was a postponement, not an escape from fresh taxes.
Mr. MUNTZ could not but express his regret that, after
thirty •three years of peace, a deficiency was still to be met
by borrowing money, and by an addition to the national
debt. If the expenditure were necessary and just it ought to
be met by existing resources.
Mr. DRUMMOND was sorry that the able speech deli-
vered by the Hon. Member for Manchester had been
listened to by so thin a House. He would now merely ex-
press his opinion that the country had came to the ne plus
ultra of taxation ; and he trusted that the Government,
looking to all the circumstances of the country, would at
a future period be prepared to come forward with some
plan adequate to the exigencies of the time. With respect
to the naval and military establishments the Hon. Member
(we believe) advised the Government to call upon the naval
and military authorities to state the force requisite to be
maintained for the necessities of the country. In regard to
Ireland, he thought that the imputation thrown out by any
Irish Catholic bishop, that this country intended to starve
the Irish people, though it might be passed over with the
phrase that it was all " Tullagh-hill talk," was in plain.
honest Saxon, nothing but a wilful and deliberate falsehood.
Lord J. RUSSELL observed, in reference to what had
fallen from the Hon. Member for Montrose, that there was
no ground to suppose any reason why, with the reductions
that had been made, and those that might be undertaken
next year, the ordinary expenditure should not be made
equal to the income of the country. The Hon. Member
for Montrose had said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had not stated that any further reductions were to be
made, but there had been in various debates declara-
tions made by himself (Lord J. Russell), by the Hon. Se-
cretary to the Admiralty, and by other Members of the
Government, that on every possible occasion reductions
would be made with the view of bringing the expenditure
within the income. At the same time he did not at all re-
gret having, in the present year, kept up the naval and
military forces at the point at which they were now main-
tained.—(Hear, hear.) When complaints were made of the
great amount of the navy and the army, he must say that,
considering the events which had occurred on the continent,
considering the excitement which such events were likely to
produce in this country, giving encouragement to misguided
men to imagine that they had only to go out into the streets
with knives and pistols in order to effect a revolution, and
considering the attempts made in Ireland, he should have
been sorry if, for the mere purpose of popularity, the Govern-
ment had proposed reductions in the army and navy.—
(Hear.) He did trust, however, that circumstances would
enable the Government to make further reductions; but if
they were to do so, he did not think it would be in the way
the lion. Member for Surrey supposed—namely, by acceding
to the demand of the naval and military authorities as to the
amount of force: requisite to be maintained, fbr he had
hardly ever known an instance of the Government not pro-
ducing an estimate of about 10,000 men less than any esti..
mate furnished from those sources.—(Hear, hear.) With
regard to the statement made by the Honourable Member
for Limerick in respect to Ireland, he must say that the Go-
vernment claimed the confidence of the country for their in-
tentions. He hoped that the potato failure was not so great
as was apprehended a week ago, though he admitted that
there was still ground for fear and alarm on that head. He
trusted that the propositions of the Government would meet
with the support of the Parliament.
Sir. ROBINSON thought the question to be considered
was, whether substantial relief might not be afforded by a
revision and commutation of taxation ; and he believed that
there was no ground for despair, if the resources of the
country were wisely administered. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer would find various articles, not of necessity but
of luxury, imported on which he might raise 3,000,0001. or
4,000,000/. by increasing the Customs' duties ; for he be-
lieved that the country had lost that amount by the indis-
criminate application of what were called free-trade prin-
ciples.

*Mr. MACGREGOR thought that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had done wisely in providing for the deficiency by
Exchequer-bills, or by creating a new fund, instead of im-
posing a new tax.

The following resolutions were then agreed to :—That to-
wards making good the supply granted to her Majesty the
sum of 10,584,8711. be taken out of the Consolidated Fund of
Great Britain and Ireland. That there be issued and applied
to the service of the year 1848 the sum of 41,7861. 19s. 9d.,
being the surplus of ways and means granted for the ser-
vice of the preceding year. That the sum of 500,000/., being
part of the sum in the Exchequer of the United Kingdom, a
balance from the services of the years 1846 and 1847, be ap-
plied to the service of 1848.
On the question that towards making goad the supply the
Commissioners of the Treasury be autnorised to raise
2,000,0001. sterling, either by the issue of Exchequer-bills, or
by the creation of Consolidated Three per Cent. Annuities or
Reduced Three per Cent. Annuities,
Mr. HUME objected to the mode in which it was proposed
to raise this amount.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
did not not think so small a sum could be raised in a more
advantageous mode.
Mr. DISRAELI observed that when the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, in the course of his statement, painted in rather
gloomy colours the situation of the country, be not only
referred to the bad harvests we had experienced, but espe-
cially to the disordered state of Europe ; and one of the
reasons assigned by the Right Hon. Gentleman for the dis-
advantages under which this country at present laboured
was the blockade in the Baltic, which he spoke of as likely to
last for a considerable time. That blockade, as was well
known, occasioned great loss, and inconvenience, and injury
to our merchants. He (Mr. Disraeli) had before called the
attention of the Noble Lord and of the House to this subject,
and especially to the fact that, when the blockade was re-
newed, it was renewed under much more stringent and se-
vere conditions. When he first brought the question for•
ward, he (Mr. Disraeli) had inquired whether her Majesty's
Government meant to fulfil a guarantee which this country
had given to Denmark for the possession of Schleswig, and
he quoted the treaty, which was very decided in its language
and which appeared to him scarcely to admit of doubt. The
Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston), however, said that it was
possible the guarantee was not so very decidedond he hinted
at two or three modes of interpretation which might leave it
open to this country to free itself from the force of that
guarantee. But since he (Mr. Disraeli) brought the question
of the guarantee before the House, the whole of the di-
plomatic correspondence which took place between the Eng-
lish Secretary of State (Lord Stanhope) and our Minis-
ters at the Court of Copenhagen (Lord Polwarth
and Lord Carteret), which had been found in
the State Paper•office, had been published by a
learned Dane, and the nature of the guarantee was
no longer a matter of doubt. It was a guarantee
which this country was as much bound to fulfil as it was
bound to pay the interest of the national debt. He be-
lieved, that if when he (Mr. Disraeli) called attention to
the subject, the Noble Lord had acknowledged the weight
of that guarantee, and had taken a decided course, they
mightin
j uri e
sh
theyave a
hadvo i d
ee ad
ps
eo
rmi
een
noefd
.t he
The greath
linconvenienceshad and
boasted,
the other night, of the good understanding which existed
between her Majesty's Government and the powerful Go-
vernment of France. Now France had acknowledged the
force of the guarantee of 1720; and he (Mr. Disraeli) thought
the Noble Lord could not do anything more sensible or just
than to act in concert with that Government with refer-
ence
t terminate
net o thishge uvaerxa na
tt
oeu
5, a nhdlo
°llya
dtakingi
ha dt
he
ec ide d c
Englishour s
rne
etro.
chants could no longer endure. The Noble Lord had on a
former occasion made a statement which gave an impression
that the armistice which had originally been agreed to would
be carried into effect by the Prussian Government; but
he had since admitted that the hopes and expectations he
had permitted the commercial world to indulge in had
not been realised. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
so specifically alluded to the blockade, a good opportunity
was afforded to the Noble Lord to give the House some in-
formation on the subject. He (Mr. Disraeli) wished to
know what was the present state of the question ; whether
any arrangement had been made between Prussia and the
German Confederation which would allow Prussia to act in-
dependently; whether Prussia could act independently;
what was the nature of the relations subsisting between the
Court of St. James's and the,Court of Berlin ; and whether
there was any probability of a termination of the blockade
of the ports of the Baltic and the North Sea?
Lord PALMERSTON did not undervalue the importance
of the subject to which the Hon. Gentleman had called atten-
tion; but he was sure both the Hon. Gentleman and the
House would feel that, although it might be right on proper
occasions for Ministers in that House to give full explana-
tions with regard to matters in which the British Govern-
ment alone was concerned, vet that it might not be alto-
gether competent or proper for them to afford full explana-
tions with respect to transactions between other Govern-
ments, in which transaetions the English Government was
only incidentally concerned. He (Lord Palmerston) must
certainly admit that he had been very much disappointed
with regard to the armistice. On several occasions he had
held out to the House hopes and expectations which had not
been realised, bat he could assure the House that this had not
arisen from any want of activity or earnestness on the part of
her Majesty's Government. The transaction in question was
one in which many parties were concerned—the Danish
Government, the Prussian Government, and the Government,
varying from day to day in its character, at Frankfort, begin-
ning with a Diet, passing into a National Assembly, and end-
ing in a Ticar•Geaeral of the Empire. The question
had thus been embarrassed and complicated by the
varying disposition and character of the Central Ger-
man authority. If he (Lord Palmerston) were to
go into details, he would have to explain the trans-
actions which had taken place between the German
authorities at Frankfort and the Government of Prussia; and
he did not think, if he entered into those details, that he
aHsaet(iLsfoarcd-
twould s
oal duvt
iaonnc
ofe the object
wt
ge
Hya ol slht eaidn iqau evs ei
owni—.
Palmerston) might, however, state generally, what he be-
lieved was in substance pretty well.known, that the terms of
an armistice between the Government of Prussia and the
Danish Government were substantially agreed upon; that
those terms were considered by the Prussian Government
to require the assent of the Frankfort authority, and that
that Frankfort authority had coupled the ratification with
certain conditions which had for a time created delay and
difficulty. He still hoped, however, that there might
be, on the part of all concerned, a sufficient sense
of the absolute necessity and paramount importance of
bringing about, without further delay, a satisfactory
settlement of the armistice, and as resulting from it a
trtotfite
hfocrrf
ooesos
aktrucci
Inpoapdtinepaoarlarnedcateoyi
:ttntyioccasion
tr
on tnigh
abai
bring
settlement of the Schleswig question. With regard to
the guarantee of England, what he (Lord Palmerston) had
which
functions
nrisdpa,
etcerr
at
heaai
nosntvdethnot
hneesuheteroye endeavoured dcwnr
tea:iosointeumaog.nljodetepi
sdnpetdpi3oraso,
operation.
tonsstomiiit
frotGi
enwo
too.
position
teeethgyolr
degree
undertook
thosemem onnt edhianneeat
the
pursuancecause,
of their guarantee. In the next place, the question at issue
was not whether Schleswig was to be wrested from the
King-
Duke
to whom it belonged, but it was a question • complicated
in its nature, but of a different kind—namely, what should
be the internal administration of Schleswig—whether •
it
should be, as the Danish Government •
wished it to be, a con-
stitution combined with that of Denmark, or as the German
party wished, a constitution combined with the Duchy of
Holstein? It was not, therefore, a question of conquest or of
the forcibly wresting of a t •
erritory from a Sovereign, but of
the internal organization and administr • media-
for, e was,tdwht
haaa
es.t
ation of the duchy.
He trusted, however, that the good sense which he hoped

animated all the parties concerned, would lead to a Batista",
tory settlement of the question without bringing into opera•
tion the guarantee, the exhtence of which he did not deny,
but which, in his opinion, did not at present bear upon the
practical question at issue.
Mr. DISRAELI said, the Noble Lord had informed them
that, under his advice, the Crown of England had accepted
the office of mediator. This being the case, he (Mr
Disraeli) wished to know how it was that, during that me-
diation more than 40,000 men, being different contingents
of the German empire, had arrived at the seat of war--e
circumstance which had led to the renewal of hostilities and
to the revival of the blcckade ?. He thought that tbs
moment such a hostile demonstration took plane the
Noble Lord was perfectly free to drop his position as a 1:08-
diator, and to enforce the stringent character of the VW
rantee.

Lord PALMERSTON—Undoubtedly, if her Majesty"
Government had thought fit to declare war against Ger-
many, it would have been perfectly easy to say that they
would cease to be mediators and would become belligerents;
but that was not a course wuich it was deemed advisable.
to adopt. They accepted the mediation at the request a
Denmark, and with the consent of the other party; and 8o
long as they saw any prospect of settling the question awl'
cably by negotiation, he thought that was the best course
to pursue.
Mr. DISRAELI wished to know why, having accepted to.: 1
office of mediator, her Majesty's Government did not make
a condition of acting in that capacity that no hostile measures
should be taken by the German Confederation ; and why the
contingents of 40,000 men, to which he had referred, were
allowed to enter Schleswig?
Lord PALMERSTON replied, that when her Wee/
Government accepted the mediation, they proposed an strati"
tice, and the parties had, from that time to the present, bees
discussing the terms of such armistice. He believed, how.
ever, that the generals on both sides had received ordersto
abstain from any further hostilities, and though no armistice
had been signed upon paper, there had been, and was nelg.
practically a suspension of hostilities.
Mr. COBDEN said he had happened to be one of a depu-
tation from Manchester who waited upon the Noble Lord
(Lord Palmerston) some months ago upon this subject'
They stated the vast importance to them of the trade with to!,
Baltic and Hamburgh, and they urged the Noble Lord to so
the part of mediator and not to change this character for
that of belligerent; and the Noble Lord would best meet the
wishes of the manufacturing community if he could with
honour maintain his present pacific posture of mediator!
(Hear, hear.) Now, as to the vote before the House, this,
was, after all, a little loan; disguise it as they might, eel!"
selling stock or issuing Exchequer-bills, still they were go?!
to add to the permanent debt of the empire. But they would
not act thus as individuals; individuals, if they had not the
money to spend, would retrench and diminish their expel"'
ture. A reduction of 800,0001. had been made since framing
the estimates; was it not possible to retrench a little wore;
rather than increase our debt? He (Mr. Cobden) measures
the strength of this empire more by our finances than hi
our armaments or number of ships; and he must maintain
that if we added 200,000,0001. more to our permanent debt,
then, in spite of all our military and naval force, we should
present ourselves in a crippled position before the wait
Nor was he sure that the Chancellor had told the How.
the whole case for the next year in regard to expenditure;
and that all these marching and coanter-marchings to
Ireland, all these encampments and increased fortifiea.
Lions, would not end in a very heavy bill being brought .s
next spring. It was very well to say that the Kafir irsr.
was a casual expense that would not occur again; but IN
had an Irish war and an Irish famine staring us in the We'
But if we spent all we could get, and ran into debt besides.:
we should always be finding some casualty arising OP
telling against us.—(Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the
Exchequer stated that he was insolvent, and yet he had!. "
long list of loans that he could make—loans to Trinidad,
Tobago, New Zealand, and to the gentry of Ireland to ;iv
prove their estates. We were just running the career w-
hich
other nations had run, and which in the case of another
nation we should condemn, but to which in our own oasts we
seem blind, and ready to treat England as if it had a charm.
existence.—(Hear.) That majority of the House, whicleei
the spring refused a reduction in our armaments, and passed
a vote authorising the expenditure, was bound to resolve to
raise the money—to raise it during this session, and
raise it by an additional tax, whatever discontent it Wig't
create.—(Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Mr. NEWDEGATE oaths loss of
our export trade,
Mr. HUME inquired when the Bill would be read a second
time, as he should divide upon it?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER appointed
Monday, at five o'clock.
The resolution was agreed to. The House resumed; the
report to be received this day.
BATTERSEA PARK, &c., BILL.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, before the House went into Cern
mittee on this Bill, wished to move an instruction for*
clause requiring annual accounts of receipts and payments; i:f
the department of Woods and Forests, with a statement
debts, to be laid before Parliament. The Committee on ~,,
Woods and Forests reported that there was great irregular"7'
in the accounts.

Mr. HENLEY seconded the motion.
Lord MORPETH said his Right Hon. Friend the Chit"
cellor of the Exchequer had directed an investigation to W
made into the mode of keeping the accounts of the ofacl
of the Woods and Forests, the system of which was Roo
to be defective, and the present Bill contained provisieo!
upon this head. It was the wish of the Government thP,
everything should be done to obtain as perfect a system
accounts as possible. It was his (Lord Morpeth's) dear:
to give the utmost publicity to the accounts, and if
Honourable Baronet would furnish him with the propo
clause, he would give his best attention to it, with a view t
embodying it in the Bill, if unobjectionable. The Noble
Lord entered at some length into the reasons which had is
duced him to propose the Bill, and to provide funds by mean,
of debentures.

After some discussion, Sir H. WILLOUGHBY withdrew
his amendment, and the Bill passed through Committee.
RENEWA d LE LEASEHOLD CONVERSION (IRE',
LAND) BILL.
On the order of the day for going into Committee on tlO
Bill,
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said, that considering the period 01
the session at which they had arrived he felt obliged to post'
pone this Bill until next session:7( Hear, hear.)
The Bill was then withdrawn.
DUBLIN POLICE BILL.'

This Bill was read a third time and passed.
The House went into Committee, and passed a resolution
on which the West India Loan Fund Bill will be founded.
NEW BILLS.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER obtained leavo,
to bring in a Bill for regulating the liability of trustees ?g
savings banks, and for providing for the appointment of midi'
tors of the accounts of savings banks.
Lord MORPETH obtained leave to bring in a Bill to pro'
vide for the expenses of erecting and maintaining lock-1P
houses on the borders of counties ; also a Bill to simplify tb
laws of certificates under the Act authorising the advance of
• money for the improvement of land by drainage in Orel
Britain.

THE ENCAMPMENT AT THURLES.
Mr. F. MAULE laid on the table the correspondence v 7017,
had taken place between the Government and General Mact
donald and Colonel Taylor on the subject of the encampineD,
en Mr. Maher's grotinds near Thurles ; and took the opt,
tunity of saying that, so far from the encampment miZi
within 30 yards of the windows of the house belonging "-
to so
Hon. Member for Tipperary, it was 200 yards distant. ,101
was happy also to state that since the Hon. Member °of
brought forward the charge which he had made the ladlrli,ha
his family had promenaded the grounds ani listened
to
music of the band, without being annoyed by any of 1.71-1,
obscenities to which the Hon. Member had alluded. He° to
regretted that the Hon. Member had lent too ready an e—
the representations which had been made to him.
The House then adjourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock