The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-16 00:00:00

IMPERIAL FARTLAME-NT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, May 15.
The LORD Cnauccti.oa took his seat upon the Woolsack,
at Five o'clock.

CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.
Lord KENYON presented a petition from the Marylebnne
vestry against the Charitable Traits Bill ' • also a petition to
the same effect from the Methodists of Bradford.
Lord COTTENHAM presented similar petitions from St.
Mee's, Canterbury, and several other places.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
Messengers from the Commons brought up certain Bills.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.
Earl BROWNLOW presented a petition from the Mayor,
Aldermen, and Tovni Council of Boston in Lincolnshire, against
the Charitable Trusts Bill.
The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S presented similar petitions
from Carmarthen.
THE FREE CHURCH IN SCOTLAND.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from members of
the Free Church in Edinburgh, complaining of the refit-al to
grant sites for the erection of places of worship connected with
the Free Church of Scotland.

THE CORN-LAWS.
Lord BEAUMONT, on the part of the Earl of Yarborough,
presented a great number of petitions from Lincolnshire against
any remission in the protection duties on the importation of
corn.

The Marquis of NORMANBY said that he wished to pre-
sent a petition which had just been put into his hands. It was
from the congregations of nearly all the Nlethodist chapels in
Kingston .upon-Hull against the Charitable Trusts
measure stating
that they viewed that with considerable alarm.
Noble Lord also gave notice that on Monday next he shouldT
move for a return of all the murders and at tempts at murder
which had taken place in Ireland since the Ist of January,th,r
and
whether they were committed by day or night, toge twith
other circumstances that might ills' inguish them.__.
THE CLERKS OF THE CROWN.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—In pursuance el the
notice he had already given, he shoeld move for a. return
of the Clerks of the Crown.
He should not have suede such a
motion without a more distinct notice had he anticipated any
opposition. He had many opportunities of diserving the
character of the present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and
he believed that he was calculated to be of consider-
able benefit to the country. The Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland was chosen in consequence et' his ignorance and
want of connexion with the country, as was also his secre-
tary, and they were unacquainted with the people of Dublin
Castle, and the duties that devolved on them. There was a
gentleman named Pollock, by whose death no less than fifteen
appointments as clerks to the Crown fell vacant. It had for a
long time been under discussion, whether the office of clerk
of the peace could be united with the office of clerk
to the Crown. In consequence of the appointment
of some gentlemen to serve in those offices by
the castes rotulorum of the Queen's County, in opposition
to the Crown, legal proceedings were commenced, and the
question was tried at Dublin before all the Judges, only two
of whom were against the Crown. The question was after-
wards tried by their Lordships, and the decision given by them
was against the power of the Crown over those officers.
It was contemplated that these officers should be united. What
was recommended by the last commission of Lord Devon, and
on which so much stress has been laid en different occasions by
the Government ? He recollected that when that Com-
mission was issued, whenever Noble Lords urged the
Government to take some steps in the ameliora-
tion of the law of Ireland, they were repeatedly refused
until the labours of the Commission were finished, and their re-
port had been made. Well, new that it was so, it deserved
the attention of that Government who had so highly valued it
before. The Commission that was issued in 1836 recommended
that the office of the Clerk of the Peace should be united
with that of Clerk of the Crown. But he would go
back to another Commission, which was formed of men
intimately acquainted with the country—he meant the com-
mission appointed in 1830, to review the grand jury laws in
Ireland—and their report ought surely to be attended to.
They reported, that the duties of the clerk of the peace
and the clerk of the Crown should be performed by one
officer, and that the duty ought not to be divided among
two—the office of Clerk of the Peace ought to be re-
tained, the office of Clerk of the Crown should be abolished.
When this subject was fully placed before the pub-
lic, the public expected the same arrangement would
he made for the abolition of the office of clerk of
the crown. He did not mean to say that, without
any inquiry whatever, all persons who were clerks of the
peace should be appointed indiscriminately to the office of
Clerk of the Crown ; but what he would contend for was,
that when these Clerks of the Peace were found to be fit and
proper persons for the offices, a due regard should be
had to the economy of the country, and the two
offices should be merged in one. But that
had not been done ; but the state of the fact yea- this, that
In three weeks after the death of the person he had mentioned,
a mass of applications had been sent in to the amount of several
hundreds, and the gentleman had not been dead a week
when it was well known who was to be his successor
to at least ten of the situations he held as clerk
of the Crown. It was a well-known fact that Mr.
Kemntis had been deputy clerk of the Crown for four counties
in Ireland and for the city of Kilkenny. This gentleman had
acted in that capacity fir a long time before, but in the year
1818 he positively received his appointment as deputy clerk of
the Crown. On the death of Mr. Pollock he was, however,
turned loose on the world without any compensation. Now, he
would ask if that was right or just towards the Irish people ?
He did not know what were the abilities of this gentleman for
the situation he bad filled, but he was well aware that he had
had three recommendations for similar situations from Kul.
kenny, three recommendations from Wexford, three from other
counties, and two from the city of Kilkenny. But he dared to
say that they would be informed that arrangements wonld be
made by which the late appointments would not stand in the way
of future appointments. They might be told so, but he begged
their Lordships to remember that those were patent uffices, and
only held during good behaviour. He hoped that the Noble
Earl would clearly inform them on what understanding
these arrangements were to be made, and if they were to be
enforced. Now the public in Ireland had a right to be in-
formed in what these arrangements were to consist, and what
the Government intended to do in respect to these officers.
He wanted to know what were the arrangements under which
the appointments to those offices were made. He apologised
for having so long occupied the attention of their Lordships.
He hoped that his Noble Friend would tell their Lordships
what the arrangements to which he had alluded were, and give
distinct answers to the questions which he had put.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS said, he at once agreed
with the Noble Marquis opposite, that the Government was
bound to pay respect to, and seriously consider all the re-
commendations contained in the report from which
the Noble Marquis had quoted; but he could not
say that he admitted that the Government was bound
to act in accordance with them. Now what were the recom-
mendations to which the Noble Marquis had called the atten-
tion of the House ?_—That the clerkship of the Crown should
merge into the office of the clerkship of the peace. The com-
mission of which the Noble Lord (Devon) was the head, re-
commended, that in addition to the duties of the clerk
of the peace, the same individual should perform
the duties of clerk of the Crown, and become public
prosecutor. Now, he (the Earl of St. Germans) appealed
to any Noble Lord, conversant with the operations of the law,
whether that would be a convenient or even a constitutional
course. The Noble Lord seemed to be well aware that the
duties of the Clerk of the Crown and Assize were to prepare
indictments, to keep record of challenges, and various other
functions peculiar to such officers of the Court. And now he
would ask their Lordships whether it would be prudent the
same individual should perform the duties of Crown
prosecutor ? Unquestionably her Majesty's Govern-
ment were of opinion it was not. But then
came the recommendation of the Committee of 1840
to inquire into the grand jury laws of Ireland, which re-
commended that the clerkship of the crown and the
clerkship of the peace should be consolidated, on the
ground of economy. They recommended that the clerk
of the peace should, in addition to his present remuneration,
receive a third more than his present salary for performing his
duties of Clerk of the Crown. But then that would only
realise a salary of 6,0001. for the whole of Ireland. The
Clerk of the Crown would then be obliged to have a deputy
equally skilled with himself, to assist in the performance of his
duties. The Government had considered what was the best
mode of effecting the consolidation of these two offices, and it
has appeared to her Majesty's Government that it would be
much more beneficial for the dispatch of public business, and
consistent with their interests, that the patronage of these two
offices should be vested in the Crown • and that it should not
be held by the custos rotulorum. By the present exercise of
this patronage, no less than fourteen persons held the office of
clerk of the Crown, who had not been bred to the profession of
the law, and even the very last appointment made was that of
a gentleman who had been an officer in the army, and, of
course, wholly incompetent to discharge the duties imposed
upon him. He would again state, that he held it far more
consistent with the interests of the public service, that the
Crown, acting by its responsible Ministers, responsible to
Parliament for their acts, should have vested in them this
patronage, and that it should not be vested in
the bands of persons wholly irresponsible. Bat at the
same time it had been thought expedient that the gentleman
who held these offices should have their rights respected, and
every gentleman who had been appointed since the present
Government came into office had bound himself not to demand
compensation for any change which Parliament might deem it
fit to propose respecting these offices. A Bill was before the
Parliament at the present moment in
u'd, respect to the subject.
Be did not think that the Noble Marquis, with regard to
the particular case which he had put forward, had. made out
a very strong case. The gentleman had not been appointed
by the present Government. It would not be consistent with
the pnblic service that men should perform the double duties of
clerk of the peace and clerk of the Crown.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that after what
bid fallen from the Noble Earl who had just sat down, it was
right that he should understand what was the intention of Go-
vernment, and whether the appointments to these situations
were to be in the gift of the Crown or of the custos ro-

tulorottl.
Earl ST. GERMANS said it was the intention of the Go-
vernment to respect existing rights when the two offices were
held by two persons, but in an future appointments the two
offices should be merged in one. With regitrd to the case of
the Noble Marquis (Londonderry). he believed that that was
a peculiar one, and that the Noble Marquis's father had
granted a patent to a party for the appointment, by which the
right was taken out of the hands of the Noble Marquis. The
Noble Marquis appealed to the law, and it decided that the
patent could not be interfered with.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY explained.
The Duke of LEINSTER would confidently assert that an
arrangement conjoining the offices of clerks of the peace with
clerks of the Crown would be a most beneficial Act for Ire-
land. He regretted extremely that Government had not taken
the opportunity, when so many vacancies had fallen into their
hands, of making this a:leo:gement. He Himself would wil-
lingly resign into the hands of her Majesty's Ministers the
power which had been given him of appointing clerks of the
peace. He was well aware that the gentleman that held that
office in the county of Kildare was in every way fitted for it,
but still he would willin,gli make every sacrifice, in order to
ensure this arrangement.
Lord BROUGHAM hoped that the Noble Earl opposite
you'd take the suggestion of his Noble Friend behind him into
consideration. He could seer, ro reason why they should
transfer into the hands of the Minister of the Crown a patron-
age which was so all-important to the interests of Ireland. He
slid not say that that vatronao-e had been abused, but still he
thought that it would be Letter placed in the' hands of her
Majesty's responsible 'Minister. He objected to the judges
haling the appointments of
clerks of as3:ze on the same prin-
ciple that he thought thy,.' who appointedce the judges should
have the appointment of inferior officers.
The Earl of WICKLOW said that he. was bound to that
the answer of the Noble Earl on that side of the Houle' had
given him perfect satisfaction. It appeared that these gentle-
men had got their appointments subject to any
ll "e arrangementscovemr
N-igilieight. afterwards be come to by the
enet.
As soon-as the r•ecommendation of the Commissioners had bean
eattondocklirtylhe\povernment., and he thought that it was
i;_,A, their intention to do so, fit parties would be appointed to the
47/4 office. His Noble Friend had said that that was the intention
..„:::',of the Government. If they had acted in accordance with the
F. %:Crecommapdation of the Noble Marquis opposite, incompetent
Ck.,,'.llArties vse4aslavo been appointed ; but as it was, proper par-
(
ties, 01-Wio :aim), had been appointed.—(Hear, hear.)
< Those that. been, appointed by the Government would be
Rerfeetl7 to enter Upon the duties of their tac when
vre