The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-21 00:00:00

'~-.~

INIPERTAL PAIILIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, July 20.
The r. ,
ot c_,HAFTESBURY, in the aUsence
•Of the
'4°:(l Chancellor to,.ik his seat on the Woolsa at a
Quarter to Five (,'Clock.
ut)llessages from the Commons brought up several Bills,
^tneh were read a first time.
Lord REDESDALE prented 16 petitions, signed
03i`JOspter
0 9 ersons, complaining of the break of gauge at
uee.
, GL ASGOIV TERMINI BILL.
t‘i:'ru. COLCHESTER moved that this Bill be riad a
-QM tune.
rhe Earl of RADNOR
mov.l as an amendment iha
thethird reAing be postponed for a few days.
rl
tAi vv
rter a few words from Lord COLCHESTER and the
-A of SHAFTESBURY,
that m
e"aversation ensued, when a complaint being atle
thera was nothing going on,
he Earl of SHAFTFSBURY and Lord BEAUMONT
acted that there was a great deal going on.
syvearetid.OßOUGHAM thought the House ought to be
the ar' Ranixon and Lord BEAU3IONT explained that
11:3
el.ltla a motion for the adjournment of
the debate.
thr" BROUGHAM thought that there was no harm
adjournment.
7oell the motion being put the third reading was ad-
-14 I • ill Thursday night.
tI'USAL OF SITES FOR THE FREEhe w
The A C HU LIMES.
larquis of BREADALBANE gave notice that
)4,,n he shoutlentrused with several poitions en this suljeot,
i,",d present to-morrow.
e'4OI)RIC OF ST. ASAI'II AND BANGOR.
the ad PO A. 'S rose to present several petitions against
te...eehsolidation of these two sees, and he beggecileave
Vve that the petitions lie on the table.
to ue, NOBLE EARL, then moved the sec )nd read-
th'is t,he St. Asaph and Bangor Bills. In making
t
lob
eeri.— state' he should refrain from entering into very
hflents. He had addressed their Lordships
an this subject to pass any other subjects which

la;attnediate relevance to the matter in hand. Their.
is 7,astiiPs were aware that in 1834 a Commission vi as
eii%lll4-~ for ascertaining the position of the E tablished
hisstell. In the report of that Commission there
i'
ai "alit'ofiosition to found a bishopric of Manchester,
fish is bishopric was to be supported by the consolida-
tili; the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. But to effect
oielait Was necessary to hold out some inducement to
their rights. That inducement was the formation
Chet 4 b6IIOPrIC in the rich and populous agricultural diss
th, s°f Lancashire. The Bishops of these sees were, in
alit extreme
a popular, and it was necessary to hold
1)414,8°111e bonus to the inhabitants of the princie-
asd " and that bonus was the advtage. h
tlietii4st Mentioned, that of providing spiritual
su eulireids:
liti,:, for a district but very inefficiently p
the No happy he had the opportunity of appealingp to
'earned (Ie Marquis (Lansdowne) and the Noble and
is Lord on the Woolsack to do justice to the couns-
4eitqa this matter. He appealed to the Noble Marquis
te "et, if the present were a case in private life, if
rtaia
taros!, Property had come into his power, he vvoul,l
lien to appropriate that per to the purpose for
ihe had received it? He nad a like appeal to
ithiee
11,„ 'e and Learned Lord on the 1
Ih' ',..ed!e that considering the poverty of the country,
aCol h these two sees were, their Lordships would
His I (I'l. in noort of what
11.-w the Bill to pass. ..10r b up, sr. , ,
said, referred their Lordships to a petition preEent,d
,
'heir Loraships' House from people in one of the
)a°eeses. lie would refer to the petitions which had been
1111'4nted ageinst the union of ttiese trvo sees in proof of
e feeli a h. h -) • v iled in the principality on the
4415. n,, wic ii e a
ata,l'et• He would refer al: oto those which had been
kieriteee faitn Gloucest, r, hire, from 1 ssex, and from
Iliet: to show the general feeling of the country.
1, slit subject to which he was about- to allude, because he
th„ 'Ti?os,?d to a Noble Friend of his, who is an advocatefr
lattea'auell, and who was ready to prescribe a course which
tsar mere efficient than his own fur the support of that
tale k-r:( Hear)—he felt that he (E..rl Powis) could not ob-
tatielaa hearing on this subject, for he knew how the cha •
Ilia, 'A that Noble Lord and his infiu rice would override any-
I'lliChich he had to assert. Yet, with deference to that
trisea,' he still felt it eecessary to urge , theh
atd irs which he held, and the opinions waled
it" ta',e,ll .fOunded upon them.. His Noble Friend had
e ' opinion of the Archbishop of York, the Lord Ha-
igatle,',aud another Noble Friend, to whom he would not
4%!..evuathe would venture to assert,
its
those Noble Lords
tri.nkt ueen more decidedly wrong haa they were on the
'kh (''Nsion He had thought it necessary to say this
!liatt ' Ilettus .
a * Of h. es knowing the weight which attached. to the opt-
tki hn
,ts Noble Friend, and the weight. by which
:'at,' be supported,he was pateicu'arly anxious respect-
-4 tha?Posittei; which to be offered to this Bill. Yet, from
ate
Ave
t"len, place, he believed that neither their Lordships
.e°taer House of Parliament would be over tender on
alte "411
‘lO ~g of an Act of Parliament. The Act to which he
Vie elect °lie passed only forty-nine
years
ago,
which was on
eterellei; t!ie greatest interest, and which had for its object
-"get:, ' Akin ° f the Church. But parties had materially te
.• Rs • ee 9sat time. . (From this_ potlint his Lordship Ira
hiloaedible that it was perfectly. impossible to
lea,.."telael, observations with anything k curacy.)
th seeted haord read a long extract from on.ehoef thaeepetitions
eet • Y him at an early part of the evening, showing that
Ntaste ieii,ent discharge of the duties of the diocesan must be
ll:I'll affected by the union of the two sees. His Lordship
Thea -1k7,, by moving the second reading of the Bill.
atamela-it'lleis fL AN SDOWNE said he would state the
n't tl4 W4ieh induced him to resist the Noble Earl's motion.
aette, same
he felt a difficulty, a difficulty however alto-
a-Neetiktis,aing from the familiarity of their Lordships with the
t)bie P. rie would enter therefore upon it very briefly. The
Nolld 0 :earl had said it would be necessary for him to state the date
5 11841 of the Commission issued on this question. In
ne kat'der the administration of Sir Robert roenel
wased
,111,4 ..u,ble Duke (
a aCnirmcoinition of
Wellington),
~'ve cit, to inquire into the state
to its improvement.
(he 4:4tahlished Church, with a
view to
That they were
1101,Prinei pies of that
21 Par ed to recommend Commissionanyad.ditional bishops for
.England.
Ile' hat those sect should be united where it was possible to
h so -without disadvantage to the Church. 3J,
in recommended a new distribution of lands. When,
t'refore, their Lordships gave their assent
to that
t4titt, they gave their assent to all its recommendations. The
Net bishop of England, and the metropolitan of that city,
akte theac sanction to it, and, therefore, the term spoliation
lf Oat at all applicable to its recommendation, for
tit of this sort were contemplated, the
044. t never would have had the sanction of those high eccie-
to, „I"4 dignitaries, who, it would be admitted, had no desire
4r4tiraii. the usefulness or diminish the power of
.the
144 4hed Church in this country. Their recommendations
ass to a certain extent, carried out since 1835,
t jet. up to the year 1843, his Noble Friend
last% 'a_ Powis) had never thought . proper ao
Ittsit."o consideration of their recommendations before the
aaetit4.% of their Lordships. The principality of Wales
.14,2 gained by the recommendations of the commission.
Ss rlleipalit of Wales had not objected to receive the bene-
lt ietatferredY by the commission, and he thought
111, 0 1,4,-;_4!Y too bad, that now they had receive.'
aefes a'attnum of the gifts of the commission they should
Set to be affected by the other reforms, which, though they
91?alle4Pear to diminish the number of prelates in that ran-
ltotaolt would, in the opinion of a great number. of prelates,fte
st,aertitie ,to a very great extent the general. interests of h
'esel., tOroughout the country. He maintained thated theo
,t 1 seodations of the Commission would ten _
,tittl,;) the episcopal jurisdiction of the church. The
'itli -„'lsioners saw great masses of the people
ilsiitat-,.; all adequate assistance from the Church ; and, in
-se t -a Meet that state of things, measures like the one before
to Niderationof the House were proposed to be adopted
14lato provide Bisht s for- Lancashire and Yorkshire.
LN1:47'1146e of Ili oniPhas been created, and successfully
ad IC The partier put the wants and the revenues together.
ascih ea Create.' a new bishoprics. If any of their Lordships
%ittal. as doubtless many of them had, the number of towns
tilllls Were to be thrown together, if they had contemplated
t `''Ptllation of those towns, they would be convinced.
tae
Co' Commissioners lad done their duty in consoli-
tate ° tinder on; spiritual jurisdiction, the inhab:-
, ialliaOf this a'a • a which combined the most
qk -",_'' districts l'ofrie Yorkshire and Lancashire. See-
Enofese circumstances, he thought that the Church
rod Riand would do wisely in meeting the necessity
ltdoriruvide for this district some safe means by which the
tts%;"7 and the religion of the district might be secured.
%ikti*;°lald rest his claims on this ground ; and allowing that, in
a-04 importance, this was a first-rate consideration, yet,
Iliewafth he would admit, that it was an evil that
.thesesees
tttabi`! be suppressed, and yet still he must asseit thatt theas
S sh'sbnient of the see of Manchester, calculatednsa!
elylmwore
110 Ply a large constituency would be nf i
hr"tlanee • but which was containednuawewithin the
1/tvite of the of St. Asaph and Bangor. But further than
lk‘Bl l't appeared by the returns which had been submitted to
ta4itiarnent, that the population of the neighbourhood of the
Vioeric of Manchester had so increased, that the excess was
k /41d that of the whole of the sees of North Wales by
Friend would be sur-
N,Let:isiderable numbther
ii7Tato hear that. wi in. fourteen days evidence had come into
44, tenderedtiireasdtisonwhhehthr it necessary to consider whether
new bishops might be created who should
Iltkia'M a seatw in this House, Looking at all these circum-
alrea. he thought that it was this duty to say no to the pro-
the rir of his Noble Friend, and he, therefore, proposed that
Thlll he read a second time this day three months.
'titttlleliesr:krtilsce:igohft LONDON thought that he could adduce
tons for the support of those sees which had not yet been
ton their Lordships, His Lordship thought that some
better prepare them fur any change that was
4°'we'e)". it,a to what fell from the Noble Marquis (Lens-
l',.t?
iat Attlitt,tneY should lose no time in establishing the bishop-
Oa it "I-e"eitere h was sure their Lordships would all agree
rands • iaa" the re
this subject he was of opinion that
hmitetaseesstiel'Nenotr might i a
Wales. hi be t for that previous to a vacancy in
got for that previous to a vacancy in
:Itsssi.f ths 015 Wales. It was true that the funds in the
Itl if °Garlile,Coranaissioere were not more than 930/. a-year,
; %sou.'" °1 the sees inquestion were vacant, there would be
a-PPIY the of ab"ot 2 000' But he thought
.that they might
slao ee eaei, , . 9 •
bel 44t Of 1 rat in the hands of the Commissioners to the
11104 R tirade ''.:''Ci.l,. a-year, and he was certain of another 1,000/.
lit new nis,eoaanaLle within twort months of this time, so that
ta,,,oped tLp of Manchester begin with about 5,000. /.
i„aisterle.eatf this suggestion nighte appear practicable with
ii!t4lalillsish°P OtrlVlalveGsOeeßs sehPoaped, that if he lived so long,
'8 rth, . Yet see such asrangements made as would riot make
Isatie."/al• necessary tei,- Years from the countr where he had spent so
de ed fro • The only benefit, he said, his diocese had re
t vro arch-
aen, in the Commission was the appololme° • , u„ke
°tit ta ' Red two trifling augmentations. The. feelings tiller a sh' edi
ser4.. tsare ea'e was in favour of the Bill laid on their Lord-
i,i Laza h
.ny the Noble Lord (Powis). These. sees were very
is:goat's 4/I°O been constituted, perhaps, previous to the arch-
Ott she °I. Dublin, and the people were very desirous that .1(31104
Revd he maintained. He agreed, with others of hisas
Ali e`a Friends, that the bishopric of Manchester w
itk hitlvert necessary anti very desirable,. and he thought
seed tueen delayed toe long,. having been intro-
° their Lordships' attention about . ten ye.ars,
ls:410e,":11has hopeful, whatever might be their Lord hips
4011,it5.._ t means might yet be found, to pre,erin
14‘Otaa,t'e'rsees disunited, and also to found thebishopric
tat44ll h ' He opposed their union not frem any
.interest hef
eel a" in it, but Irons a consideration of the interests o
Qi-arear;,,an_d of the country.
'tey were v lAN said he had no doubt that the whole of the
/t4L'asse o,`'fe for the retainiue of the two sees ; but if they, wdeer „4atth,. the proposition of the Noble Lord, he did not won
10'. thelre'll°4ld• He found by a return that in the see of Badne-r t,
1/, ~,e !ee 34 of the aarochial clergy who received
jutnto, ,
'le ,•4,dr,s,ra.ri, a pl under 200/.; in St. As ph, 31 under,n., :4,
h. A.. a o_, a , Oa ; in Bangor the eouri-!it-- ;,.'re 3:4:, '
~,.,..
ii: salcth_ -., 1,11, reel'ilit,l h• teeite l''''
til.ead the -t,
of the Noble Lied was to units the tAo
v hr4e_out el the revenues to draw a surplus for the esta-
• " °i Oa bee of Ilauchester.

Lord STANLEY regre!ted that in the discussion this
evening he saw nothing to induce him to alter the opinion
w'm h ha had before expresser% The question before the Com-
mission and their Lordships was how the financial incomes of
the C.iutch of England and Wales could be so regulated
as would pro!wce at y improvement. It was for their
Lordships to c,,osider whether they would follow the recom-
mendations of the Commissinners on that subject or not. His
Right Rev. Friend deprecated the taking away of the revenues
from the poor people of Wales to establish a see in the rich dis •
trict of Manchester. But the real object was altogether con-
fined to Wales—by tt e union of Bangor and St. Asaph to in-
crease t'n;reveries of St. A,aph andLlndaff. In proof of this,
his Lordship referred to the Order in Council. There was

another qu,stion, which had nothing to do with finance; it had
altogether to do with the augmentatioe of bishops. He denied
ever having expres-ed any wish for the reduction, or any oppo-
sition to the augmentation of the number of bishops. He had
ceded their Lurdships' attention to the d ffieulties with which
the question was surrounded. He had su2gested that there
were two alternatives open to their Lordships, either to aug-
ment the temporal power of the church, by augmenting the
number of bishops, and introducing them to that House, or Ly
augmenting them, and excluding a certain number from that
House. There were difficulties, he said, nn that occasion con-
nected with both; and that he was certain their Lordships would
adopt either, only after great deliberation. But he would not
trouble their Lord.hips with what had occurred on a former
occasion. The fact was, that if Bangor and St. Asaph
' were united to-night, it would be found, judg-
ing of the two sees by area, benefices, or popu-
lation, that they would be less than some twenty or
twent3 -t out of the rest of the twenty-six dioceses. Exeter,
for example, Norwich or Chester w, uid be found almost
double, but some others would be ascertained to be seven,
eight. and even tenfold greater than the united sees of St.
Asaph and Bangor, He confessed he could not, however, con-
cur in the second reading of the Bill at a time when so little
had been ascertained as to the course on eshich that Bill was
leading them would end in.
The Bishop of SALISBURY could not allow this Bill to
be put to the vote without making a few observations. A
Noble Lord said that if the rev nues of one of the sees went
to the support of the poor benefices in the dioceses, the re
suit would be exceedingly advantageous to the relieious in-
terests of the people. The Right Reverend Prelate in reply t o
that went into a comparative statement of the condition of the
benefices in St. Asaph and Bangor, with other dioceses, with
the view of showing that as far as the value of the
benefices, the population and other circumstances,
there were no grounds whatever for a different
appropriation of the revenues of the Church. He
considered that it would be much better if the consideration of
the question were postponed to the next session, and he was
quite sure if the Noble Earl complied with his suggestion, it
would tend very much to promote the interests of the Church.
The Bish ;p of NORWICH could tu t agree with the Noble
Earl in the Bill he brought forward. He considered, how-
ever, there ought to be an increase in the number of the
bishops; and, for that purpose, wished Manchester to have a
prelate ; but, taking the circumstances of the dioceses in ques-
tion into consideration, he must vote against the Noble Earl's
measure.

Earl GREY said that the happiest results had followed the
carrying out the recommendations of the Church Commission,
and he sincerely believed that the improved tone of public
opinion in regard to the Church was entirely to. be attributed
to the reforms suggested by, that Commission. If their Lord-
ships admitted the applicability of the Noble Earl's proposition
with regard to Wales, they would have to extend its applica-
tion to other places, and by degrees and detail break down and
destroy the recommendations of the Ecclesiastical Commission,
the measure passed a few years ago by Parliament, and nullify
all the excellent improvements which had been made. He etas
by no means disposed to deny that an increase of
bishops would be advantageous, but let them make that
increase in such a manner as to make it most available for the
general efficiency of the whole church. Was there any proof
before them that if they were to have 27 instead of 26 Bishops,
the best mode to do that was by keeping the dioceses of St.
Asaph and Bangor separate ? Whether they looked to the ex-
tent of the territory— the number of benefices—or the amount
of the population of these dioceses, it would be seen that they
steed in less need of the episcopal superintendence of two
Bishops than other dioceses in England. He said there was
another question which ought to be considered before they
committed themselves to any alteration—that was, the want of
areclatal clergy throughout the kingdom. The want was
great, and admitted on all hands ; but he said, if he was right,
and if they adopted the Bill on the table. they would strike
directly at the possibility of that improvement. The Noble
Earl then alluded to the report of the Church Commission,
which, after referring to the want of clergy, chapels, and
churches, and the means of sheir support, stated that, of all
the evils connected with the Establishment, this evil—the want
of clergy, and the means of their support—was the greatest
and the mitt itrgt.nt ; but that, notwithstanding this urgency,
all that could be dove: to meet it was to endea-
vour to diminish it gradually. On that account the
Noble Earl did not agree with those who in such circumstances
wished to augment the number of bishops. Good as that pro-
position per se might be, and even if the necessity of a
particular bishopric were made out, he yet could not adopt the
Bill, so long as there existed a more pressing evil within the
church establishment. He opposed the Bill, therefore, purely
on the ground on which he stood when he sought to improve
the efficiency of the church. But there was one other point
on which he wished to animadvert. The union of the two
sees was resisted by a Reverend Prelate, on the ground that
these sees were ancient. Now he begged to caution their
Lordships against a feeling, little other than superstitious, which
w ,s attached to things that had become consecrated by time,
and sacred ; a feeling which, if they should follow it,
might lead them to a conclusion which others had arrived at
in the same way, that there was but one true Church, and that
the Church of Rome, and that the Episcopal Church was
schismatical and altogether in error. He therefore opposed
the present Bill.
Lord ELDON, in supporting the Bill, said he would regret
to preclude any party from b:rnefits which they would otherwise
have received ; and if it did so, when the Bill went into com-
mittee, if Noble Lords allowed it to go there, he would not
resist any clause which might be inserted to preserve those
benefits for them. He wished, however, that it should be
remarked hat the Noble Earl ha:, brought forward the Bill for
one object and one alone, disjoined from any larger views of
state affairs, with which he thought it ought not to be mixed up.
The Bishop of OXFORD begged their Lordships would
bear with him while he addressed them very briefly. He
wished to address them the more, after heating the speech of
the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne), who had grounded his opposi-
tion on entirely different reasons than those asserted by him
on former occasions. The Noble Marquis sheltered himself
under the Commission, and yet ho urged the withdrawal of the
revenues of the Bishops, and the application of them to the pa-
rochial clergy ; urging them, therefore, to do that which was
repugnant to the very spirit of the Commission. The Marquis
urged his opposition to the Bill from the constitution of the
Commission ; that in it were the Primate of all England, the
Primate of York, and the Bishop of London, whose character
and judgment gave it weight. But he (the Bishop of Oxford)
said they ought to look at the details ; one Pri-
mate was absent, another Primate would vote
in favour of the Bill, and the Bishop of London
had delivered a speech in support of it. Thus,
those who had been egainst it, after deliberation, came round
and supported the opposite opinion ; that fact, too, bore
against the argument that had been drawn from the recom-
mendation of the Commissioners in their report. The ques.
tion, now being clear and open, was—should there never be an
augmentation of English Bishops ? He held an opinion di-
rectly opposite to those that had been expressed—that where a
great whole, a great institution needed reform of abuses, that
that could not be done by the expression of something merely
abstract, but that the amendment and reform must be attained
by immediately removing the abuses and evils. It had been
acknowledged that the founding of a see at Manchester was
necessary ; he contended then that this was the duty of
their Lordships. As to the whole number of
Bishops, he referred their Lordships to the relative
numbers that were in France before and after the
Revolution ; in Spain and in Greece ; and to those members
which Latimer, and the early English Prelates, thought ought
to he in kingdom of England ; which he considered answer
smiicietit to some arguments that had been used against the
Bill. For the sake of the common truth which they held
together, he trusted their Lordships would concur in support-
ing the Bill of the Noble Earl. He begged to apologise for
having so long taken up their Lordships' attention.
The Earl of FOWIS replied.
. _ . . . . . .

Their Lordships then diiided, when there appeared—
For the Bill, content 3B
Not content .
M jority for the second reading
The Marquis f LANSDOWNE said that it was not hs in-
tention to give any Further opposition to the measure, but to
leave the Noble Earl to take his own coui se. He did not,
however, alter the opinions vihich he entertained.
't heir Lordships then adjourned at Half-past Ten.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Ju'y 20.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

THE NEW MINISTRY.

Mr. C. BULLER was introduced by Colonel Fox and
Captain Mangles, and took the oaths and his seat for
L6keard.

Colonel A wsorr was introduced by Viscount
Ebrington and Mr. Tufnell, and took the oaths and his
seat for South Staffordshire.
Mr. O'CONNELL entered the House shortly after
four o'cl..ck, and took his seat on the Ministerial benches.