The Sun.
London, England, 1848-02-22 00:00:00

THE SUN, _UONDON, TUESDAY

expected, There should be a fair and open discussion
on 04.1tevstimates; and, for his part, he took upon him-
self triveir responsibility, declaring that they were not
-star testirnafes. nor had been framed with any view to a
ravrare with foreign countries, with whom our relations
4•407-., at present of the most amicable nature.—(Hear.)
Mr. lIERRIES said that they were discussing the
:-,merits of a Committee which had not as yet been ap-
pointed. A something was proposed to be done, and
that sofuethinz had not been explained.—(Hear.) As
to the former Committees which had been cited by the
Noble Lord, they were appointed in time of war, when
great 'caution was necessary.—(Hear.) He objected to
•411. Y rote of money until the Committee had been
aVoointed.

'Mr. HENLEY complained that since 1830 the esti-
senates had been annually increasing. This year there
VSys an increase, and Government, instead of having
Chem properly and publicly vindicated, proposed to have
:them referred to a Secret Committee.—(Hear.) He
must say that to throw this responsibility on a Commit-
tee was, in his opinion, to abdicate the functions of a
Government.—(Hear.) Ile could not see the use of a
Government, if its members were not competent to
mature estimates themselves, and to justify them before
the House and the country.—(Hear.) It was a mere
delusion to leave the matter to fifteen men, who would
be, of course, pie'eed by the Government. Certain names
would be We-educed to give the Committee a colour;
but tie a wbeee it would net be one jot more worthy the
people's t onfidence than the Government themselves.—
( near , bear.) He thought that the causes of these
increasing estimates ought at once to be inquired into.
Sir R. PEEL said that it had been his duty, as repre-
sentative of the Government in that House, to move the
last Committee in 1828. Shortly after the appointment
of the Duke of Wellington, and iu fulfilment of a promise
made by Mr. Canning, he (Sir R. Peel) proposed a
Committee to consider the military expenditure of the
country. As the question of secresy had been raised,
tie apprehended that if precedents were to be followed,
the present would be a Select Committee—(Hear, hear)
--but would have full power of withholding any inform-
ation, the promulgation of which might be prejudicial to
the public interests. Sir H. Ilardinge, was examined by
the Committee of 1828, and his examination was pub-
lished at length, as was everything that could be pub-
lished without injury to the public interests. In this
sense he hoped no Committee, would be secret.—(Hear,
hear.) Sir H. Hardinge in the evidence to which he
had alluded, proved himself to be actuated by the same
spirit which had distinguished his career in India, and
which had resulted in a saving of one million per annum.
`—(Hear, hear.) Important evidence had been given
before that Committee. which would have never been
elicited in a general discussion in that House. Some
parts relative to the defences of Canada were with-
held, and the Committee in their appendix apologised
for, and justified, the omission. He did hope that
ato Committee would be appointed, which would
not follow the course of the former one, that was to
Bay, give the public as much of the evidence as pos- '
Bible.—(gear.)
Sir F. LEWIS would consent to a Select Committee,
but riot to a secret one. The Committees which had
been quoted were all Select Committees.
Mr. NEWDEGATE looked upon the appointment of
et Select Committee as a transfer of the powers of the
Government to a commission. The suddenness of
this resolve to propose a Committee appeared to him
somewhat remarkable, and though precedents had been
Tned, he did not think that in any former case had
equal precipitation been shown, unless, perhaps, in that
of 1797, when Government proposed the Com-
mittee with the intention of suspending cash pay-
ments. He was not aware whether the Chancellor
of the Exch• trier nad it in contemplation to resort
Qt, that course in the present difficulty. Ile believed
there would be no objection to vote a round sum for cur-
rent expenses; but he, for one, could not consent to a
speoific vote.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
adopt the suggestion which had been offered, and with-
'draw tae vote which had been proposed (which was a
whole vote), taking a vote on account instead.—(Hear.)
Mr. ROBINSON thought, before the House was
called upon to vote any money, its opinion should be
taken as to the whole of the budget.—(Hear, hear.)
Ills constituents would not be satisfied to vote the money
first and then refer the estimates. He had no desire to
offer any factious opposition, nor to withhold the neces-
*ftr7 funds for carrying on the public service, but, look-
tag at the present circumstances of the country, before
have
could consent to vote away a single shilling, he must
'°ave an opportunity afforded him of ascertaining what
Was the opinion of his constituents as to the imposition
Of a permanent and increased income or property-tax.—
(Rear, hear.) He must ask the Noble Lord whether
any injury to the public service would result from the
postponement of the navy estimates to a future day, as
no understood the only ground on which they were now
called on to agree to this vote, while the estimates
generally were to be referred to a Committee, was to
'Bitable Government to get over some temporary
dculty.
, Lord J. RUSSELL—The House may depend that we
!noald not ask for money on account of these estimates
d „the public service would not stiffer were it not granted.
„ lIILDYARD understood that, on Monday next,
the Rouse was to be called upon to decide upon the per-
reneoce of the income-tax—which tax the Government
4'l announced would be for two years at least increased
.111 amount. Now was this Committee to be appointed
to take from Ministers the responsibility of the estimates
which they had made the ground of that announcement?
--(Hear, hear.) Was the Committee to be at liberty to
'reduce the estimates? If so it might turn out that after
the increased property-tax had been voted the addition
alight not be necessary. This would be to trifle with the
country.—(Hear, hear.) Was it the intention of the Noble
rd, supposing this Committee were appointed, to ask
fis'a
""a R4use previous to their reporting to agree to the re-
aolution for increasing the income-tax?
Lord J. RUSSELL answered that it was his intention
to ask the assent of the House, on Monday next, to the
resolutions he had introduced on Friday last. His
statement, however, did not appear to have been under-
stood. He had said that if we paid the expenses of the
Kafir war, which could not well be avoided, seeing that
these expenses had been already incurred, and made no
other increase in the estimates, there would be a defi-
ciency of between two and three millions—to meet
which it would be necessary to resort to increased
taxation. If it were possible that the proposed Com-
mittee could diminish the estimates by that amount, they
'sight, no doubt, go on without voting any increase of
the property-tax; but as he could not suppose any such
?eduction could be made, he should feel it to be his duty
13° ask the assent of the House to that preposition. He
, ail no wish on the part of the Government, in appoint-
ing the Committee, to get rid of the responsibility which
attached to them. His object was rather to show that
„I4"ernMent were anxious, in respect to the estimates, to
undergo any inquiry Hon. Members might desire to in-
etitUte by a Select Committee, over and above such in-
iiniries as might be made in the Committee of the whole
Ouse,
Mr. DISRAELI remarked upon the silence of Hon.
Gentlemen who sat below the gangway on the Ministe-
rial side of the House—a silence which he conceived
must be peculiarly gratifying to them. He rose, how-
:ter, to request the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in
Ftrt?,Posing the appointment of a Committee to-morrow
se,‘""2B day), to be prepared with some precedent for
0_ Step he recommeuded. The precedent which had
77n referred to by the Right Honourable Gentleman
,„`"1 E, Peel) the Committee of 1828, did not ap•
elle That was a strictly economical appointment, the
-ugleet being to ascertain w hether the expenditure of the
eountry might not be safely diminished. But the mili-
tary estimates of the current year were not referred to
fee Committee. And the various other cases which had
tes% quoted were as little germane to the present.—
(Rear, hear.) When the House was called upon to
_fifer the military estimates to a Secret Committee, no
%Ile could suppose that it was on the ground of economy.
'ila general feeling would be, that the object was of a
zmuch graver character—(Hear, hear)—that it was to
Inquire into the eflciency of our defences, and the
Xtent of military force which might be made available
44) any case of emergency.—(Hear, hear.) He gave nod,
foe Exchequer
on the general question. The Chancellor of
lee Exchequer might be able to adduce sufficient reasons
r the course he proposed, but hes, doubted whether he
justify it by precedent. He hoped, also, the Right
°,ll. Gentleman would state to-morrow for what special
„M,
"eet the inquiry was to be instituted—for no one
could
suppose it was for economical purposes, or with
e view of diminishing the amount of the current esti-
rilat".---(Hear, hear.)
he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could,
Without any trouble, refer to precedents, but preferred
Wotai.ting till to-morrow, when he would state the grounds
ents motion, and adduce precedents in support of it.
ord D. STUART observed that Government could
tautt6_,but be aware that the statement the Noble Lord had
un `Le on Friday last with regard to the income-tax was
sidlieceptable. It had been met with reprobation on all
eiliee,_e and therefore they thought it necessary to cons
of tite and remove opposition. But did the Chancellor
b ",e,Exchequer suppose ho would disarm opposition
hear4's Preposition of a Select Committee ?—(Hear,
111 he supposed that he could in this way recon-
cile th
rho
e Country to the permanent imposition of this
Ila tax he was greatly mistaken.—(Hear, hear.)
"es° who
nee me. were prepared for the continuance of the
obi tax, or even an increase, expected that its most
weetionable features would be removed, and that it
hear)be
Hear made to bear equally on all classes.—(Hear,
Peed. If the window-tax were removed—if the
b• - had cheap teas or tobacco—or if some other
boon were •
or 4, given to the working-classes the removal
lore
of those taxes which more especially pressed
lore "!'eln, the property-tax might have been borne for
°
est' ° longer. He was glad to find that the present
tie e h"es were not brought forward as war estimates,
(14teee rejoiced to hear what fell from the Noble Lord
-.erne
ilettietai . the other night, as to the importance of
e info peaceful relations with France. He was,
"'eye
tenntr ,
r. not ono of those who would wish to see this
tie% t in such a defenceless state as to offer a temptae
eilia neighbouring or warlike people to attack us.
aide, et aware that among the educated classes on both
Peace °f Channel there was a universal desire for
Aae gA,lt' the same time, when a neighbouring country
ter, It werned by an ambitious and unscrupulous Minis-
out ; it at not impossible that war might suddenly break
gethee would, therefore, be a false economy to be alto-
-- d
eorse than unprepared. He trusted that the Nue ron now
slave t uselesdy employed in the suppression of the
that 0,1:4" on the coast of Africa would be recalled, and
eoat 1111°11037 which the maintenance of that squadron
Wish n d be employed in some more useful way.
obje egard to the vote before the House, he had no
but ielel°B,ll to a round sum being taken on account,
,tt.euld oppose the vote for the whole excess.
dints WAICLEY remarked' that the gratification of
essay ("I,;,anat,t,hle. seer ce of the Members below the gang-
813ire had ob "h the non, Member for Bechinghem-
of Sho.. 0 sei veu) would, he was sorry to say, be but
" continuance.—(ilear, hear.) The Hon. Mem-

~-+r-~--~...~

her, however, ought not to feel surprised that those
Members abstained from speaking on a very painful
subject. It was his duty to inform the Noble Lord (J.
Rusiell) that his proposition had been received by his
(Mr. Wakley's) constituents with astonishment, indigna-
tion, and disgust.—(Hear, hoar.) The public were not
particularly pleased with the Right Hon. Member for
Tamworth (Sir R. Peel), when he first proposed his
three per cent. tax on property and income for three
years; but there was to much blandness, such a fascina-
tion in his manner of proposing it, and he paved the way
to it so smoothly, that it was impossible to be angry with
him.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But the Noble Lord
had resorted to no such expedient. Ho came
out in a broad honest way with his proposal, and
it was quite evident that ho thought it would not be
unacceptable to the public. It was his conviction
that, though perhaps Ministers might have succeeded
in passing a renewal of the tax for three years more, it
would be wholly out of their power to increase it to
5 per cent.—(Loud cheers.) He might be wrong ; but,
from what he saw and heard, he believed the people
would make such representations to their representa-
tives, that they would not dare to support the Govern-
ment in that proposition.—(Hear, hear.) Should this
increase be submitted to for two years, what man in his
senses could suppose that it would be afterwards aban-
doned—(Hear, hear)—especially after the experience
they had bad of the present income-tax? The public
were right, therefore, in resisting at once a proposal
that involved one of the most dishonest and disgraceful
modes of taxation that had ever been tolerated.—
(Hear, hear.) If John Bull was content to bear this
burden, then let Government give him more of it—
punish him for his stupidity—(Hear, hear, and a laugh)
and before the end of the session, make it 71 or even
10 per cent.—(Hear, hear.) It would serve him right.
(User, hear.) It would appear that when Ministers
found the country in a difficulty, they asked what
was done on the last occasion of difficulty. The
answer was, of course, " Oh, a dose of the income-
tax."—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) " Then double
the dose this time" was the remedy proposed. But were
the doctors certain that their patient's strength would
endure these constant drastic purges—was it not pos-
sible that he had been already reduced too much? He
regretted that the Hon. Member for Montrose had not
persisted in his amendment, which he should certainly
have supported. Just before Christmas the House was
called upon to consider the distress with which all
classes were afflicted and the great loss which had been
entailed upon our commerce and manufactures, and now,
in a few short weeks after—without any attempt being
made to reduce the burdens which were already weigh-
ing down the public—a new proposition was brought
forward to increase the pressure upon them. He be-
lieved there would be no difficulty whatever if Ministers
would reduce our establishments to what was really
necessary in bringing the expenditure of the country
within the income.—(Hear, hear.) What a fudge
it was to talk about war with France or any other
country.—(Cheers.) Suppose a war did come, how long
would it take to prepare it ? But there was no danger
of anything of the kind. The people of foreign coun-
tries were now too busily occupied in improving their
own domestic institutions to think of interfering with
others.—(Hear, hear.) If subjects were wise, war was
a game which Governments would not dare to play.—
(Hear.) There was not the remotest chance or pros-
pect of a foreign invasion. We were at peace with all
the world, and yet our expenditure for the naval and
military establishments of the country was to be in-
creased—(Hear, hear)—and that, too, by means of a
tax which, as regarded a large class of the people, was
no better than a robbery.—(Hear.) All taxes to be
just must be equal ; but the income-tax pressed heavily
and unjustly on the poor man—the man who came just
within its grip—while the property tax scarcely touched
the rich man. He held that the income tax was au um-
politic and an iniquitous tax upon the industry of the
country. He had received a letter from ono of his
constituents, in which the oppressive operation of the
income-tax was described.—[The Hon. Member read
the letter, which stated that the writer had an income
just over the 1501. a year; that he had a wife and large
family to support; that he was compelled to maintain a
respectable appearance or he could not hold his situa-
tion, and to educate his children; that his income would
cease altogether in the event of illness, and complained
that, besides being called upon to pay assessed taxes, he
had to pay as much for income- tax as a person who had
5,0001. in the funds, of which no contingency could
deprive him, and which would be available in case of
death for the support of his wife and family—whereas,
if tho writer died, his family must be left destitute,
the pressure of taxation upon him being so heavy
that, to make provision for them or for sickness, by
saving, was impossible.] This person called upon him
to oppose the proposed increase. Another correspon-
dent had suggested that the tax should be charged on
all beyond 150/. a year.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord
opposed the tax when it was first proposed by the Right
Hon. Baronet, and ho had net adduced a single argu-
ment for changing his opinior..—(Hear.) Why was not
the sliding-seals—which some Hon. Gentlemen were so
partial to—adopted in the case of this tax ?—(Hear,
hear.) He hoped between this and Monday the Noble
Lord—who had given way on one point—would recon-
sider the question and propose a renewal of the tux of
3 per cent. only ; and, as he valued the public peace,
withdraw the odious 5 per cent. on the profits of indus-
try.—(Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. EWART, the vote was
withdrawn.

Mr. WARD then proposed a grant of 1,400,0001. in
part of the navy estimates. This included no whole
vote, but was 800,0001. on account of the first vote for
wages, 400,0001. on the second (victuals), and 200,0001.
military pensions and allowances. He said the Admiralty
were must anxious to carry out the principle of economy
in their department, and should be happy to receive any
suggestion for that purpose.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said he did not assent to these
estimates. He was not certainly eery conversant with
the navy estimates, but he was prepared to prove that
the army estimates might be reduced by 500,000/. with•
out taking a single man from the service.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said (in
reply to questions) that on the Ist of January, 1848,
there was a balance of 8,000,0001. raised last year in the
Exchequer, but, without notice, he could not state the
precise amount; that credit would be given for the
450,0001. China money in this year; and that 19,750,000/.
would be the probable amount of customs for the year
ending sth of April, 1849.
The vote being put from the Chair,
Mr. ROBINSON said he felt it incumbent on him, as
a public duty, to move that the chairman report progress,
and ask leave to sit again; but the motion, not receiving
any favour in the House, was not pressed; and on the
question being again put,
Captain PECHELL said he would not delay the
public service by interposing his motion now, but on the
fitting occasion he certainly would call attention to the
claims of the paymasters and pursers of the royal navy
for a retirement, and to those of the commanders, lieu-
tenants, and masters, for promotion.
The resolutions, after a protest from Col. SIBTHORP
against them, inasmuch as they were voting money
without knowing from what source they were to obtoin
it, were severally agreed to.
Mr. F. MAULE rose to ask a vote of :1,800,0001. on
account of the charges for land forces, the whole sum re-
quired for which was 3,800,0001.
Mr. B. OSBORNE considered the amount too much
to ask for under existing circumstances, and moved a
vote of 500,000/. instead.
Col. SIBTHORP was of opinion that they ought not
to vote a shilling until they knew where it was to come
from.

Mr. R. YORKE moved that the chairman report
progress.
Mr. F. MAULE assured the House that the sum he
asked, which was not a moiety of the whole, was abso-
lutely necessary for carrying on the public service.
Mr. HERRIES would second every effort to effect
whatever reduction could be made in the estimates,
but would be no party to the amendments now pro-
posed.
Mr. B. OSBORNE (after an appeal from Mr. Hors-
man) consented to withdraw his amendment, but stated
it to be his intention of going into the minutest details
of the army estimates.
The resolution was then agreed to, as was also one
granting a vote of 500,0001. out of 1,200,0001., on ac-
count of the out-pensioners. The Chairman reported
progress, and asked leave to sit again.
The House resumed, and the report was ordered to be
brought up to-morrow (this day).
PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.

Lord MORPETH, in moving the second reading of
this Bill, said that a fair interval should be allowed be-
fore he called upon the House to discuss its details. Ho
observed (in reply to bir B. Hall), respecting a Bill for
the metropolis, that the question was one of so compre-
hensive a nature as to require not one, but a series of
Bills, the first of which he hoped to present in a very
short time. The present Bill (the Noble Lord said, in
reply to Mr. H. Berkeley), would interfere largely with
the local boards, but would not interfere with the func-
tions of the poor-law guardians.
Mr. MACKINNON observed, that great praise was
due to the Noble Lord for his exertions on this subject;
and (in reply to an objection from Mr. Urquhart) said
that so far from this Bill being framed on the principle
of centralization, its machinery would be entirely in the
hands of the local boards.

Mr. WAKLEY regretted to find that, while the
Government were continually patronising the legal pro-
fession, there was not a single provision in this Bill for
the introduection of a medical officer. He 'perceived
that the general board was to consist of the chief com-
missioner and four persons appointed by the Crown, of
whom two were to be paid, Would the Noble Lord
consent that these two, who would have to do all the
work and must be men of ability, should be legally qua-
lified members of the medical profession?
Lord MORPETH said that the Bill gave the Trea-
sury the power of appointing a number of superintending
inspectors, who, he thought, ought to be medical men or
engineers, according to the peculiar exigencies of the
case. Again, the Bill gave the local boards the power
of appointing officers to carry out its provisions, and
amongst those officers he had no doubt that medical men
would hold a prominent place. Respecting the two
paid members of the general bolrd he could give no
more stringent promise than that the Government
would select the best and most efficient men they could.
Lord D. STUART hoped that llon. Gentlemen would
not discuss the details of the Bill in so thin a House.
He thought if it was intended to carry the operation of
the Bill into the metropolis it ought to be declared; if it
was not, then a clause ought to be introduced to exempt
the metropolis.
Mr. HENLEY said, while he admitted the measure
had been much improved since last year, vet he thought
sufficient care had not been taken to guard against the
construction of too extensive districts by the inspectors
to 1)2 q:': !;irit.,(l in 6- ci;ff-rNit I,sonlltiPc.. Ho 9.lSr, yap!.
of opinion that another difficulty would arise from the
mode proposed of transferring-all the burdens and debts

of the existing local commissioners to the new districts,
who would not have the power to resist them. Some
amendment he also thought would be required in the
clauses which had reference to existing waterworks,
which involved great complication.
Lord MORPETH said the suggestions which had
been thrown out would receive every consideration on
the part of her Majesty's Government.
Mr. SE, ANEY expressed his thanks to the Noble
Lord fur having had the courage to persevere with the
measure, which, while it benefited the working classes,
would, he believed, prove one of true economy.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed.