The Sun.
London, England, 1846-02-24 00:00:00

it is now afflicted.—(Cheers.) They do operate
so as to alarm, and terrify, and intimidate the peace-
able and well•disposed, and to prevent them,
in almost every case, applying to the magistrates for pro-
tection. And, my Lords, Ido think that it is nee.:lsary to
meet those secret and illegal association,. I therefore call
upon your Lordships to give your sanction to this measure.
When it shall have passed, as I hope and trust it will—
( Cheers)—when it shall have passed, and enabled the Executive
Government to put an end to the reign of terror, and to give
the peasantry of Ireland, and to the wealthy of that country
that sort of security which the English people, and which I am
happy to say, the peasantry in many parts of Ireland
do now enjoy, then,' my Lords, I think we may look
forward to the satisfactory results which her Majesty's
Government are at this moment engaged in adopt-
ing. My Lords, your Lordships are no doubt aware,
that in the course of the present session no less than
448,0001. has been voted for the purpose of employing the
people of Ireland in public works in that country. Your
Lordships are also aware that in the course of last session no
fewer than 13 railway Bills were passed, involving an expenditure
of nearly 9,000,0001. All this will be employed in a mode
which, it appears to tae, to be most desirable to give employ-
ment to the labourers of that country. .New, my Lords, I say
it without fear of cotradiction, that it is impossible that any
measures for the improvement of Ireland should be effectual
until such a treasure as this shall have passed.—( Hear, hear. )
I will not say mere, but trust and hope, and I am sure I express
the earnest prayer of her Majesty's Government, that, in pro-
posing the present measure, there is no wish that the law should
remain allay longer than it is necessary for the protection of
life and property in Ireland. The Noble Lord concluded
by moving the second reading of the Bill.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the Noble Earl, in
shoxin4 the necessity for the Bill before the House, had en-
tered into a statement that in many respects must have been
as painful for him to give as it was painful for their Lordships
to hear. He did not rise to offer the slightest oppo-
tion to the progress of the Bill—a Bill which, on
the face of it, as stated by her Majesty's Government,
was intended for the preservation of the lives and property of
her Majesty's subjects in many parts of Ireland, for he thought
the Bill should progress through the House without the least
possible delay. So far from blaming the Noble Lord and the
Government for bringing forward the measure at such an
early period of the session, he come it after the de_
claration contained in her Majesty'seecfi
- Throue,_
which declaration was unhappily warranted by the facts
laid before the House in the Noble Earl's address, not a day

should have been lost in submitting the measure to Parliament.
Every day of delay after that declaration was a day lost. While
he therefore felt it was the duty of her Majesty's
Government to call the attention of the House

at an early time to this important subject, in or-
der to devise a measure to meet this deplorable
state of things in Ireland, he must not be understood to sup-
pose that this measure should take precedence of other mea-
sures for the relief of that country.— (Hear, hear.) The
adoption of this treasure would not in the least degree
relieve her Majesty's Government from the carrying out
those other measures which were required to meet the state of
Ireland—measures that better accorded with the feel-
ings of their Lordships, and were calculated to benefit and
advance the social condition of the people of that country.
He considered it expedient that their Lordships, whether in-
vited by the Government or not, should enter into a consi-
deration at no distant period of measures that were more
calculated to give universal satisfaction than the
one at present before their Lordships. —( Hear, hear.)
He admitted, however, that this measure was necessary
to enable the Government and the people of Ireland to accom-
plish the carrying out of more extensive schemes of legis-
lation, which would be more conducive to the future peace
and prosperity of Ireland ; and he for one looked upon the
present measure as the indispensable precursor of more im-
portant propositions. How, let him ask, could mea-
sures, which were dictated for the benefit of Ire-
land, were calculated to excite the industry of that
country, and to produce local improvements ; nay, if some of
their Lordships would have it, calculated to confer additional
privileges upon the people of Ireland, be attended with any
benefit or advantage to the people of the country, if mea-
sures were not adopted for arresting the hand of the
midnight assassin ? (Hear, hear,andchwheehrise.) wereLe
aLet
them, then, at once enter into the consideration, after
calculated the
passing
n ini a goflarge this
sdegemreae tsuoreof measures
encourage the industry of Ire-
land, and to teach the poor man, notwithstanding what one
class of Legislators might say on the subject, that his labour
was his own property, and not subject to the caprice of,
or only to be exercised at the will of his superiors.
Nay, even if the privilege were to be extended—if the poor
man was to be enabled to vote where he had not voted before--
and he be enabled to take part in municipal deliberations—of
what value was that vote to him if there was a law in
existence which dictated to him how he should exercise
that vote, instead of allowing him to vote according to his
opinion ? He, therefore, did not feel that the Bill which had
been produced by the Noble Earl was one which would afford
the poor that protection which they stood so much in need of.
He had truly stated, its introducing it, that the crimes now per-
petrated in Ireland, extended to every state of society in which
any improvement had taken place; that the present illicit law
was not directed so much against the rich as the poor man ;
for the rich man could guard himself against its consequences by
withdrawing from the scenes affected by those daring arid
systematic crimes ; they were directed against the poor
labouring man, against the man who answering to the call
of the Legislature sought to improve his country—( Hear)
—to the call of, his landlord, who, it was hoped, encouraged
him to improve the land which he held. Those crimes were
riot confined to one county, but extended throughout the whole
of Ireland, and would end in consequences of death, insectitity
of property, and would cause capital in that country to be frif,-
tered away to its serious detriment. On these grounds, he felt
that he should be ill doing his duty to Ireland, or to their Lord-
ships, if he did not express his opinion that the Bill brought in by
the Noble Earl would be of great benefit to that country. By so
doing, ho Never, he would not be prevented from urging on
Her Majesty's Ministers and their Lordships the necessity of
adopting measures to allevia'e the sufferings of that people.
He trusted that the time was come when her Majesty's
nisters would give that subject no unnecessary delay. Their
Lordships would do right to pass that Bill, and he had only
to say that he hoped they would give it all the considera-
tion which the nature of the measure required, in
order to secure the liberty and independenee of the subject.
He was sure that the subject would obtain, at their Lordships'
hands, as little delay as possible, when it was considered that
every day added to the list of crimes committed in that
country. With reference to the particular previsions of the
Bill it was not is wish to interfere.—( Hear.) He hoped their
Lordships would consider the particular amount of punishment
to be dealt out, and that the particular character of each
county would be carefully attended to. He would not delay
their Lordships with many observations, as he was sure there
were persons better qualified to pronounce judgment
on the subject. But on that occasion he thought
that in the shape of p, nalties the expenses that would arise
ought to be levied from the districts creating them, and that
measures ought to be adopted for the purpose of protecting the
Witnesses and the persons who might be instrumental
in bringing offenders to justice. It did appear to
him that the enactments of the " Arms Bill" had
not been attended with the desired effect, for there had been a
considerable increase in the amount of crime, and their pre-
sent measure ought to be considered with reference to that Bill.
For the liberty of the subject, he thought that the measure
ought to be passed now, for in many parts of the coun-
try it would be found to be of great practical benefit.
Lord BROUGHAM agreed with the observations made by
. .

the Noble Lord who had just sat down, and particularly w
his last observation, that the Bill ought not to be delayed for
the smallest space of time unless what was absolutely neces-
sary for well considering its provisions. He would not act
counter to that feeling by endeavouring to defeat it in any
of its stages. He heartily deplored, he sincerely deplored, that
there should exist in any part of the British dominions, and
more especially in a part so near to themselves, a state of so-
ciety (confined, he would hope, to but a few districts), which.
if not strongly and energetically put down, to talk of social
improvements, to talk of any amelioration in the condition of
that country, and still more to talk of any legislative beneficial
effect, was as wild a fancy as ever entered into the mind of man.
—( Hear, hear.) The first duty imperative on their Lord-
ships was to make Ireland an habitable country. The picture
given by his Noble Friend did not take him or their Lordships
by surprise, conversant as they were with the general features
of the case, though not as fully acquainted with
those hideous details that picture which made
it impossible to say that Ireland was an habitable
place for any peaceable subject. The first duty of their Lord-
ships was to prevent this frightful state of crime which was
stalking abroad over the country, reducing county after county
to a state that made the denizens of the South Sea Islands a
preferable people to live among than the inhabitants of Ireland.
He lamented that one provision was not in the present Bill.
Bet by the recommendation of the Noble Doke, whose advice
in most cases amounts to the force of a command, he (Lord
Brougham) was induced to withdraw his measure. He re-
ferred to a measure to render it possible to obtain
convictions of crime, by having the trial of the
accusation in a part of the country where the
jurors are not subject to the shot of the assassin.
He did not think that this measure should be confined to Ire-
land, and if it were reckoned less invidious, he would rather it
were made a general than a particular and local measure. It
was clearly and without hesitation his opinion, and he be-
lieve.' he had the authority of some of the most emi-
nent lawyers and judges of the country, and also the
true constitutional principles of the country on his
side, that there should be power given to the pro-
secutor, under due regulations, as regarded the expense
of the defendants, of trying the case at the option of the
prosecutor. In the case of Ireland the Government, as pro-
secutors, should not be confined to the county or place where
the offence was alleged to be committed, but that they should
have power to try the case in Dublin or Londonderry. It is an
every-day practice in England, in smuggling cases, where
the smuggler could not be committed, and the
penalties for contraband trading could not be obtained.
All these prosecutions, it is well known to your Lordships, are
tried in London. In Scotland it has been from time imme-
morial the custom of trying every description of cases, from
the greatest offence down to the lowest misdemeanour, all are
tried at Edinburgh, where he himself had seen this principle of
the administration of justice carried out in every day's occur-
minal Court at Edinburgh. No benefit could accrue
to persons by being tried in the neighbourhood
remote northern
areorth tried
ernan
bdefore the High Cri-
southern parts of
'Se Scotland all Fromoffencesthe
whatever
where they are known. It is better for them
nine times out of ten, and better for the administration ten
times ten that they should be tried at some distance from the
place where they were known. When a jury Comes to the jury-
box impregnated with all the tittle-tattle of the neighbourhood,
they were not in a proper condition to give a true verdict. He
was referring to the law of the country. The old law was, that
man should be tried by a jury of his neighbours. It was
called voisseau, and from this term comes the term venu,
now in use in legal phraseology. The criminal was,
according to the old law, to be tried by
hundreders in the hundred or hamlet in which the offence was
committed. In the reign of Queen Anne an appeal was
made to the Court of Queen's Bench to set aside the verdict
of a jury. The ground of the appeal was, that the jury were
witnesses of the fact—the Court granted the rule in that case.
That was the explanation and origin of the law, which required
a jury to be impanelled on the spot where the crime was com-
mitted. His hope and trust was, that before many days were
over, the Government would be able to use effective measures
for putting down these disturbances and he threw out this
suggestion, because he thought it would add acme-
what to the usefulness of the present measure,
and because he thought that the Bill would, of
itself, he ineffectual without it. He did not wish to prolong
the discussiim, brit he might be permitted to hope that some