The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-14 00:00:00

INCREASE OF BISHOPS.

Lord C. MANNERS presented a petition from certain
ratepayers in Leicestershire, praying the House to adopt
measures for augmenting the number of bishops.
DISEASE AMONG SHEEP.

In reply to a question from an Lim MEMBER,

Mr. LABOUC-HERE stated that the attention of the
Government had been called to the prevalence of a
disease called small-pox among. sheep ; and he would
state to the House exactly how the case stood as far as
they were acquainted with it. At the end of the
month of September last they received information
that several cases of disease among sheep had occurred
of a very fatal and contagious nature. The Board of
Trade and the Customs having heard that these sheep
arrived from Germany, instituted a strict in-
spection of all sheep imported from that country,
and every other measure that they thought
necessary, and very shortly afterwards cases of
diseased sheep imported into this country had
altogether ceased. He had, however, seen the accounts
to which the Honourable Gentleman had referred
of a disease of a very extensive magnitude among
sheep in the eastern counties. A strict investigation
eha
asa
sde
Idaatgenani
animal
ba ell ea nh, ed sst aab bte
ulei
rns
dh
aeyd. aun d
p discovered only t
a wo
hlln ocahcinabst
uoe
or ogkfh a d
place
veis
s
sel. He could assuro the Honourable Gentleman
that the officers of Customs,. particularly of. the
eastern ports had been d!rected. to have all animals
affected with the disease immediately slaughtered on
their arrival. The most stringent measures would be
adopted by the Government to prevent their impor-
tation.
In reply to another, question,
Mr. LABOUCHE4I.tE stated that all cargoes arriving
from Germany were inspected by a veterinary surgeon,
and that the Government had received some valuable
information from Germany respecting the disease, and
that he was quite willing to have it laid on the table o
the House.

SUGAR DUTIES.
HumE gave notice that he would bring the peti-
tion which he had presented from Jamaica, respecting
the proposed sugar duties, before the House on the firs
opportunity.

NEW BOROUGHS..
The HON. MEMBER. also gave notice that on an early
day he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to have
transferred the two:llembers taken from Sudbury to Ful•
ham, Kensington, and Chelsea.

RUM.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in answer to a question from Mr.
Berkeley, whether it was the intlntien of the Go7ern-
rumnt to prope,:e any re:V..l.olOn EtS to tilt!' reduction of the
duty on rum, stated th, t the Chancellor of the Thiche.,
quer would give the information required by the Hon.
Gentleman.

Colonel SIBTIIORP was glad to find that the mind .
laneous estimates would be laid on the table in the course
of a week: he trusted that the return he had moved for
with respect to commissions would be laid on the table
at the same time.

Mr. HINDLEEMY IgGaltv
gave
nToltOieNe
that
hCaLt UoBnS.
an early day he
should move for leave to introduce a Bill to facilitate
and legalise the establishment of emigration clubs.
THE ABOLITION OF CHURCH-RATES.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said, as the session was so far ad-
vanced, he wished, to potpone his Bill on this subject
until the ensuing session.
CANADA.
The Earl of LINCOLN wished to ask the Under-
Secretary for/the Colonies whether a Commission had
been appointed either by the Secretary of State for the Co-
'onies or by the Governor-General of Canada, to inquire
nto the complaints of Mr. Isbister and others, against
he present Goverment of the Red River Settlement, cr
against the Hudson's B:ay Company generally ; and
whether, if no inquiry is now pending, he will lay on
the table of the House any correspondence which has
taken place on the subject. Also, whether a grant has
been made by the Secretary of State for the Colonies of
Vancouver's Island to the Hudson's Bay Company, and
if so, what is to be the form of government, what regu-
lations have been made as to the working coals and
minerals, and what stipulations have been entered into as
to future colonization of the island ; also whether there
will be any objection to lay on the table of tho House

port of the Select Committee appointed to sit on
election petitions, as to whether a further investigation
were required or not, and whether it should be made by
the commission, or by a Select Committee. These were
the general provisions of the Bill, but before he sat down
he must state that he proposed to introduce a clause to
indemnify the parties who were examined before the
commissioners from the penalties of the ex-
isting bribery law. He would now proceed
to move that the orders relating to the
Borough Election Committee and the Horsham Borough
Bill be discharged, with the view of asking leave to in-
troduce a Bill to inquire into the origin of bribery and
corrupt practices at elections.
On the question being put,
Colonel SIBTHORP rose to protest against the Bill
being introduced at this late period of the session.
Unless the Noble Lord gave more cogent reasons for the
introduction of the Bill than he had done, he should feel
it his duty at the next stage of the Bill to move that it

be proceeded with that day six months.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in reply to a question of
Lord Lincoln, said the first clause of the Bill which he
proposed to introduce directed that a General Election
Committee should appoint a Select Committee in
regard to those boroughs which had been made the subject
of inquiry, and in respect to which petitions had • been
already investigated, and those boroughs mentioned in the
schedule (Derby and Leicester) would be all the boroughs
to which that clause should apply, and a Select
Committee might be appointed in the first place
by the general Committee of Rections, who should
report whether a further investigation should be entered
into by a Select Committee or a commission. In reply
to another question of the Noble Lord, whether, if
a case of bribery had been sufficiently made out,
but was not bron;ht home to the Member him-
self or his agents, the Lborough would be affected
by it, he (Lord John Rus,,A) thought that the case in
point was already met in the Bill; but, if the words were
not sufficiently comprehensive he would take care to
render them so.
After some observations In m Mr. MULLINGS and Mr.
HUMS, the moti.m for the committal of the Bill was
withdrawn, and the Noble Lord obtained leave to bring
in his Bill.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
In answer to a question from Mr. NEWDEGATE,
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he meant to go on with
the Incumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill, and if not finished
that evening, would proceed with it to-morrow (this
day). After that, it was his intention to take the Lords'
amendments to the Echoed Tenants (Ireland) Bill.
PRIVILEGES.
Mr. OSBORNE complained that on a former evening
the lion. Baronet the Member for Marylebone had ac-
cused the Hon. Member for Mayo of having wilfully
abandoned his intention of bringing the Iri h Church
temporalities under the notice of the Hou•se. Now the
fact was that the lion. Member for Mayo was Leriously
indisposed, and open so for three week F.

INC LIMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL..
The order of the day for the Committee on the above
Bill was read.
Sir GEORGE GREY expressed his hope that pre-
liminary discussion would be avoided, so as that the
clauses and their amendment might be disposed or.
Mr. HENLEY doubted very much whether the Bill
would effect the object in view. The object was to keep
clear of the Court of Chancery; and he feared that the
Bid would throw the estates more helplessly into that
court than ever.

The house went into Committee.
On clause l—the interpretation clause—
Colonel DUNNE proposed an amendment to pre-
vent the sale of the lee simple to pay otY incumbrances
on the life interest, which, after some discussion, was
negatived ; the Honourable and Gallant Member inti-
mating that he woul I raise the question and take a divi-
sion upon it at a more fitting opportunity, which the
Solicitor ,General said would present itself on the 30th
clause.

The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 2,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved to omit the
words which limited the sale of the property under a
decree of the Court of Chancery, unless is sold for a
sum which should be suasient to pay cif all incumbrances
on the estate. No such limit existed us to sales by
private arrangement.
The amendment was agreed to.
Mr. MaCULLA.GH proceeded. to state the object of
the amendment of which ho had given notice.' The
Bill, as at present framed, limited the right of petitioning
for a sale to the owner of the estate, to the first incum-
brancer, and the mortgagee who might hold the title-
deeds in his possession. He was desirous of removing
such limitation, and permitting any incumbrancer to
institute proceedings in a court of equity fora sa'e. The
parties on whom the clause exclusively conferred the
power were precisely those who in general were least
disposed to sell.—(Hear, hear.) The owner of an estate
heavily incumbered has ceased too frequently to retain
any direct interest i i its possession, excepting that
which he valued very naturally, and not undeservedly,
the consideration and position which had come to him by
inheritance, and which, with the inheritance, he is con-
scious that he mast 10. e--(tleer, hear.) To expect such
a man to initiate proceedings in equity for a sale Would
be idle. Were the highest price realised and all his cre-
ditors paid off, the balance in monce a numbered that
would remain could not enable him to maintain what is
familiarly termed hie position in the county ; and if lie
happened to be but tenant fur life, the interest annually
payable to him out of court upon this residuum would be
wholly inadequate to maintain him in that social sphere
in which he had hitherto moved.—(Hear, hear.) If you
waited until the insolvent, or nearly insolvent, owner pee
titioned for a sale, you might wait for ever. Then as to
the first incumbrancer, he believed it would be found that
the first incumbrancer was, generally speaking,
a person holding a charge under family set-
tlement, or an old judgment on a bond. In Ire-
land these early charges and old judgments were looked
upon as about the best investment that could be had.
They were transferable, and always brought their full
price whenever they were sold. They were valued like
old pictures, which the possessor was always tho less
disposed to part with, because lie knew that they would
always bring him his own money. If, therefore, lands
were never brought to sale until persons so circum-
stanced filed petitions in equity to raise the amount of
these charges, sales to any considerable extent there
would never be.—(Cheers.) As for the principal mort-
gagees, who had the title-deeds in their
cporsc,sees,:ttnr,
those parties had ussiefie' 7s7s'ol.
to buy up prior ineurnbre see they lent.y any
considerable sum to fhf! 01.1-Jri 'T to syi escnt
margin of rent to secure the payment o: tee:). interest.
Sometimes these parties were wealthy individuals
who had lent their money in this way as a per-
manent, safe, and profit ible investment. Sometimes
they were joint-stock companies or money-lenders; but,
almost invariably, they felt themselves to be in exactly
the position where there was seldom any object or mo-
tive to institute proceedings for a s:ale.—(Loud cries of
Hear, hear.") The estate might deteriorate, as most
heavily incumbered properties are apt to do; but they
were distant from the scene; indifferent to the slow
decay; safe, by their possession of the title-deeds, from
the practical consequences of the evil. To wait till such
parties filed petitions of sale would he to wait for ever.
In the course of the discussions that had taken place
upon this Bill, on a previous d'iy, he regretted •to ob-
serve a tone of argument indicative in some sort of a
feeling that after all this was a mere wrangle between
landlords and lawyers. But there was another and a
far wider interest concerned which he trusted
the House would protest and guerd—he meant
that of the tenantry on incumbered e:tates in Ireland.
Their position was most lementable. Improvement was
unknown, and escape from evil impossible. Year after
year the condition of the embarrassed property grew
worse, until, in the sad progress of deterioration, the
time came when. every other duty of proprietorship
having ceased to be discharged, the collection of the
rents devolved upon a receiver; and what misery and
demoralisation was comprehended in that fatal phrase
it would hardly be necessary to explain. Now what •
was the condition of the puisne incumbrancer? He
watched the gradual deterioration of the estate on which '

copies of the correspondence between the Colonhasoffice Ihe had lent his money with a very diorent eye. The
and the Hudson's Bay Company on this subject, and of I eventual danger of a deficient fund was ever present to
the charter, if any, granted to the company. his mind. It he were enabled to do so, he would in-
Mr. IIA WES said the inquiry was proceeding, and stitute proceedings for a sale before it was too
whilst so it would not be welt to lay the papers on the late. By doing so he would do a real service
table. The charter, we understood, would be granted to the improvident owner, and an inestimable bene•
in the usual way. The lion. Gentleman was scarcely fit to the tenantry of the Portion which might
audible in the gallery. be sold. The amendment which he had the honour
nououdn EFECTIONS BILL. to move would clothe the minor incumbrancer with this
On the motion for the House rosolvin4 itself into a -power ; and it would, he believed, go tar towards the
Committee on the Borough Elections Bill, gradual encouragement of what was so desirable, but
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would take that op- what, at present, did not practically exist in Ireland—a
portunity of stating that it was his intention to move to market for land. People talked of bringing land into
discharge the order for going into Committee otethe Bill the market. Into what market ? If they meant by a
Tor the purpose of introducing a measure for the conside- market the competition of small capitals for moderate
ration of the House, the outline of which he would shortly portions of land, he could understand it ; but if they
state. The House we aware that an Act of Parliament meant a forcing of large estates unbroken and in great
had:been introduced, in 1842, fur the better discovery of numbers suddenly to sale, then ho would tell them that
bribery and treating. By that Act it was provided that the only practical effect would be to depreciate most
in cases where bribery had been abandoned the Corn- ruinously the present value of land, and to hand over a
reiteee should have the power to report to the House vast portion of the soil of Ireland to a class of mere land-
whether or not further investigation was needled, and upon jobbers.—(Cheers.) Be was sure that such was inn
that report the House should proceed to appoint another respect the purpose or aim which the framers of the Bi I
Committee to consider the grounds of the abandonment had in view. But he very much feared that such would to
of such Bill. Now, in the Bill he intended to introduce, some extent be its unintentional tendency, ifsome means
he proposed to extend the provisions of the measure to were not found of permitting portions of estates rather
which he had just alluded, nee to propose that in all than entire estates to be sold in liquidation of minor in-
cases where charges of bribery and corrupt practices cumbrances. He had heard with the deepest interest
were made, whether made in the original petition the speech delivered on a former day by the Right Hon.
or by way of recrimination, the rection Committee Baronet (Sir J. Graham) ; and by nothing was he more
should proceed to investigate such charges, and if they struck than by the caution with which he guarded his
found the parties did not bring before teem evidence of strenuous support of the principle of the Bill from any
such bribery and corruption, he should propose that approval of recklessly throwing more land upon the
they should then have the power to proceed, and to re- market than the capital of Ireland could appropriate,
port to the House, that in their opinion further investi- and thus incurring the incalculable evil of general do-
gation was needed in respect of such practices, and to preciation. The amendment would restore the second
ascertain whethersuch practices had extensively prevailed. clause to the condition in which it stood when the Bill
He intended also to propose that the Committee should was originally introduced into the other House last
have power to report further whether such irquiry year ; and he earnestly hoped, therefore, that her !des
should be made by the same Committee or by commis- jesty's Government would not refuse to adopt it.
sioners on the spot, If tint Committee reported that the Sir J. GRAHAM, being most anxious to forward the
inquiry should take place before the same Committee Bill before the House, was not desirous of instituting
then he proposed that that Committee should assemble any discussion which would consume time ; but he felt
within fourteen days, and that the Speaker should bound to state his concurrence in the views of the Hon.
appoint an agent to conduct the investigation. But, Gentleman who had last addressed them respecting the
supposing the Committee should recommend an inquiry sale of estates in large masses. By the Stamp Act as it
by commissioners on the spot, then he :proposed that existed there was a saving effected by selling large por-
the Speaker should notify to the judge of assize tions, while the small sales were obstructed by its ope-
where the offence had been committed, that the ration. He thought that the object of the Act would
House of Commons had determined that the inquiry be considerably promoted if an alteration were effected
should be made into the subject, and the senior in this state of things.
judge should then proceed to nominate barristers, The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was sorry that be
not Members of Parliament, on the commission. could not accede to the amendment, and he thought the
He proposed that the conatui3sion should investigate all House would see that the retention of the words pro-
the circumstances attending such bribery and corrupt posed to be omitted, instead of interfering with the ope'
practices, and that they should report their views upon ration of the Bill, would be beneficial.
each case to the House. Ile proposed to make it a The amendment was then negatived, and the clause,
general rule to apply this Bill to all boroughs whose with some verbal amendments, was adopted.
Members had already been unseated, while the future Clauses 3,4, 5, and 6 were adopted without discussion.
application of its provisions should depend upon the re- On the motion that clause 7 stand part of the Bill,

Mr. NAPIER said that he was strongly of opinion
that powers of a more extensive nature should be given
to the Lord Chancellor to frame proper orders and rules
respecting the petitions to be presented to the Court
under the Act.
The SOLICITOR•GENERAL thought it right to
leave technical details as much as possible to the Lord
Chancellor; but he was at the same time opposed to de-
legating to others the powers of right belonging to that
House. It was provided by the fifth section of the Act
that every petition brought before the Court should set
forth the estate of the petitioner, his interest in the
land or lease, and the uses and limitations or trusts to
which the laud stood limited; also all incumbrences bf
which it was affected. Now ho was sure tbe House
would see that it was necessary to make this compulsorl
by a section of the Act, in order to economise the time
of the Court by making it impossible for persons to
come before it with fictitious cases.
Mr. B. OSBORNE believed that unless the Bill were

carried out by Commissioners appointed for thepurpel
it would be a failure, on account of the complexity 0'
its provisions.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that such an ar-
rangement would be attended with great expense, ea('
the strongest desire of the framers of this Bill had beee
to avoid throwing additional expenses on these inceer
bored estates.
After a protracted conversation, in which Mr. B•
Palmer, Colonel Dunne, Mr. Napier, the Solicitor-Gr
neral, and Mr. Monsell took part, the Committee di'
vided, when there appeared—
Fur the clause 64
Against it'
Majority fur the clause —s6
The clause, after some verbal amendments, was tile°
ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 8 to 28 inclusive were then agreed to.
On clause 29,
Mr. OSBORNE called attention to the charge
the
0
" usher's poundage," which he said was given by .
late Lord Clare to his son, when in the cradle, and pro'
duced to him 150,0001. before he came of age. 06
wished to know how the Hon. and Learned GentleteaS
proposed to deal with that charge of 2i per cent? •
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL stated there was
proviso exempting from that charge all sums paid
the credit of the Accountant-General of the Court a'
Chancery under this Bill.
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 30,
Colonel DUNNE said it was the first of a very is?:
portant series of clauses, which he thought ought net
be discussed in so thin a House. He would, therefore,
move that the Chairman do report progress.
Sir G. GREY thought a small house was the IS
proper for such a discussion.
Mr. NAPIER suggested that the discussion might
take place on the bringing up of the report, when he is.
tended to move the omission of this and the folloivial
thirteen clauses.

Mr. GROGAN recommended that these clauses, to;
lating to sales by the Court of Chancery should be poiW
poned.—(" No, no.")
Mr. OSBORNE said the postponement of these clause°
would be in effect to give up the Bill.
After a conversation,
Colona DUNN N.: withdrew his motion.
Clauses 30 to 33 were then agreed to.
On clause 34, 1
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he was Ili°•
anxious to secure a bona fide sale when one took PI

and at the same time to avoid unnecessary expense.
re
secure due notice of the sale being given he would P
0,
pose an amendment, entitling every person who bad e 0
tared a caveat to personal notice at his abode, the.rehi
; ,
enabling him to take steps to restrain the sale lfbo
thought proper, and giving hiorthe right to knout '
price at which it was proposed to sell.
Sir J. GRAHAM thought this clause one which ret:
quired the utmost attention. It was most desirable tbso
in cases of sale, the full value should be obtained, 60

all collusion prevented. For this purpose it had heem
suggested that a public sale by auction would be gl
best —(Hear, hear.) The suggestion that the 174
should be in the master's office, with a right to the oleh'i
to open the bidding, he did not approve; but to mile 11
auction there appeared no objection.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL doubted whether
public auction would be a security against fraud. by
thought frauds might be perpetrated under a salev
auction as well as under one by private contract. to
place the power of sale on the best tooting, the per'or
ought to have the option of selling dither by auctiolibil
by private contract, as was done in all cases io
country where trustees had the power of sale. To big.
up the parties either to one mode or the other we',ll
jurious. By making it the interest of the vendors toco
for the largest possible amount the best security sgnid
fraud was supplied. Besides, the cases in which Oaf
could arise were comparatively few ; for the instenof
would be very rare where it was the interest of the ries,
selling to do so at a reduced price. As additional seop
rity he proposed to introduce a clause making all od
parties to the sale liable in the case of fraud; nO,l
thus the buyer in such a case would acquire no titletiebe
' both he and the seller, as well as the solicitor, woulemel
liable for the amount by which the full value excel, ,
the sale prices. Probably a dt,sirable course would, die
after all the incumbrancers had received notice of 'ill
sale, that the estate should be offered by auction, °it
liberty to the seller, if no sale were effected, to offer
by private contract. But even this might be protinh;
Live of inconvenience; and upon the whole he thodif
it would be best to leave the manner of the sale entire'
open. 014
Sir J. GRAHAM was not quite satisfied that it 1101
always be to the interest of the vendor to obtain the get
possible price.—(Hear, hear.) Where a mortgly
effected a sale he might have very little regard for of
interest of the heir in remainder. The uniform viefiof
the law was, that a public auction was the best means
securing a fair sale. lie would not now press his sa. d
gestion, but hoped it would receive the consideration
the Learned Solicitor-General.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL promised to ellei,eloi
your to frame a clause which should meet the vie"
the Right lion. Baronet.
Mr. MITLLINGS said that no prudent trustees weh,d
now, dint a sale by private contract, until after they
offered the property by auction. „ 0
Mr. SADLEIR thought it should be left quite oPe'4,(J.
to whether the public or private sale should be first t
ha d
r'
At present scarce any mortgagee in Ireland
cel
power of sale by private contrret ; end ell jild'aT;:tll.
creditor; !ri3t necessarily resort to en soletion
pouters of the Qom:. This incurred greet expent (Vttio
ticularly where the property was smell ; end duril37,to
hat tro yCers there had been a growing dispc.-;iti'
avoid those sales. iA
Colonel DUNNE did not believe that many 007,016
fee simple would be operated under this Bill ; it fleto
principally affect the smaller gentry, few of who'll
holders in fee.
Mr. OSBORNE was certain that great frauds Leo tO
be committed, unless the utmost publicity was given
the sale. Oi jll‘
Mr. MONSELL feared that a public sale would
riously affect small properties.
fl cr.
The clause, as amended, was then agreed to, os
clauses up to 50 inclusive.
On clause 51 being put, 11
:0 $
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL proposed to res
,„00
addition to the clause, the object of which was to sae
parties who had by themselves or their agents to
fraudulent or collusive purchases of property, lieu
make full compensation.
The clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Clause 52 was agreed to.
Clauses 53 to 62 inclusive were agreed to.
On the question heir).-put from the Chair that cl°ls°
63, as amended. do stand part of the Bill, cl•
Colonel DUNNE moved that the clause be otnitt
The Committee divided, when there appeared--
For the clause
.Against it
_au
--1
Majority
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 64, 65, 66, were agreed to.
On clause 67, WA'
Mr. F..O'COINTISOR tendered his thanks to the