The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-11 00:00:00

GROUP TX,

CALEDONIZZT (TESI.7)IIIENX AND DRANCLIZS).
As arrangements respecting the junctions to be effected by this
scheme with the existing lines south of the Clyde could not be come
to this morning, it was agreed to postpone its further consideration
till the 27th, in order to get the assent of the House to certain devia-
tions that would be required to meet the objections of the Committee,
but which involved an infringement of the standing orders.
GLASGOW AND GELEZNOCK (POLLOC
AND GOVAN 8211.17 CH).

The case on behalf of this Bill having closed to-day, the Committee
declared the preamble of the Bill not proved.
The remainder of the sitting was occupied till four o'cloele with
the Glasgow Southern Terminal, when the Cominittee adjourned.

GROUP XIII.
The Committee met to-day at twelve o'clock, Sir William Clay
in the chair. Members present, Earl Jermyn, Lord Shelburne, Mr.
James Ainsworth and Mr. Curteis.
GLASGOW, 3:O7I`4TRIES, awn CARLISLE.
The case on behalf of this line having dozed on Friday last, the
case for the opposition commenced this morning on the assembling
of the Committee.
Mr. COCKBURN said he appeared on behalf of the Glasgow and
Carlisle road trustees, and the grounds on which he did so were that
the line crossed their road twice on the level, between Dumfries and
Carlisle, whereas the Caledonian crossed the road by bridges. The
petitioners likewise thought that the Caledonian served the wants of
the district better than the Dumfries scheme. The case of Scotland,
in regard to compensation, was also different to that of England, and
the petitioners complained that due compensation was not given to
the road trustees for the abstraction of traffic which the Dumfries
line would occasion.
The CHAIRMAN suggested that those points were more subjects
for clauses than to be brought against the preamble of the Bill.
Clauses ought to be drawn up to meet the objections submitted to
the Committee, when, if the preamble was agreed to, they would be
considered.
This course being assented to, the Committee proceeded to the
consideration of the
CALEDONIAN (EXTENSION AND
BRA.NCRES).

Counsel for the promoters, Mr. Sergeant Wrangham, Mr.
Cockburn, Mr. Hope, Mr. Rickards, and Mr. Pickering.
Mr. Graham, the agent of the Bill, was examined as to compliance
with Mr. T. Duncombe's resolutions, and the necessary documents
in relation thereto put in and received.
Mr. Commute' opened the proceedings for the opposition of the
Caledoniast against the Dumfries scheme, and also on behalf of the
Dumfries branch of the former Company. He said he would reserve
his statement till the close of the evidence he intended to call, when
he would make a review of the whole. He hoped also, before the
close of the evidence for this Dumfries branch, that the Caledonian
Extension Bill would be read a second time, and ready to proceed
with in Committee, in which case it would not be expedient or just
to give any decision till that was likewise gone into, as it formed a
material point in the Caledonian case.
Mr. Locke, civil engineer, said he was the engineer of the Cale-
donian Company. His attention had been called to railway commu-
nication with Scotland in 183 G or 1837. Some time after that a com-
mission was appointed, for *which he made a survey, and laid a re-
port before the commissioners. The Caledonian trunk line was the
result of his survey. This line was substantially adopted by the com-
missioners. When the Caledonian Company was formed, witness
was appointed its engineer, and the present Caledonian scheme was
brought out. His scheme was brought under the considera-
tion of the Board of Trade, as was also the Dumfri©e
line on the one side, and the Hawick branch, in connexioa with the
North British, on the other. He quite agreed with the passage in
the Board of Trade report, that there was not traffic to support two
through lines. With careful consideration that was his deliberate
opinion. Last year, he believed, he estimated the Caledonian to
yield but 534 per cent., after paying working expenses. That esti-
mate included all the Glasgow and Carlisle traffic, and a cons'•
derable portion of the Edinburgh traffic also. He calculated the
whole receipts of the Caledonian to be 224,0001. Deduct-
ing 107,0001. for working expenses, that left 117,0001., which
was 514 per cent. on the whole capital. He was quite sure that the
Dumfries line and this could not pay together. The Caledonian
Company had already expended from 200,000/. to 300,0001., and the
expenditure was now about 50,000/., and would soon be double. At
the present moment 7,000 men were at work. All the works were
contracted for and the land bargained and paid for as it was used.
He calculated that the line would be completed by 18 months unless
a great number of Bills were carried and workmen could
not be obtained. Had he conceived last year that this
Dumfries lime on the. one side and the Ilawiek Extension
on the other, would be granted this year, he would not have advised
those contracts to be entered into. It was his opinion that the Cale-
donian line was the best line to the north as well as to Glasgow and
Edinburgh. The Edinburgh and Glasgow traffic would be much
crippled by rival lines, but the north traffic could never be taken
away. The north traffic, however, would not at all compensate the
Company for the capital expended. Last year, after long and anxious
inqulries in both Houses, and after the examination of about a
hundred witnesses, both Committees decided in favour of the Cale-
donian scheme. The Dumfries branch was then struck out as not
being sufficiently digested, and being strongly opposed by the Annan
people, because it did not touch there. This year a branch
was proposed which went front Dumfries, by Annan, to Gretna.
Even, as between Dumfries and Glasgow, the distance by
the Caledonian scheme was shorter than tire Dutnfries scheme,
the:Celedonlan scheme also connected Dumfries in a better manner
with Edinburgh. The inhabitants of Paisley would also, he believed,
be at least as well accommodated as by the Nithsdale scheme. As it
respects Dumfries, the inhabitants of Ayr, Maybole, and Girvan,
would be accommodated by the Ayrshire and Galloway line from
Ayr to Castle Douglas. Ile considered the inhabitants of Carlisle
and Canonbie would also be better accommodated by the Caledonian
scheme than by the Nithsdale. Should the Caledonian extension
line be granted Ayrshire generally would be well supplied, and there
would exist no reason whatever for the Osrmation of the Nithsdale
line, on the plea of accommodating local traffic. lie had kept in
view from the beginning that the Dumfries traffic would be an im-
ps hem in connexion with the Caledonian scheme.
Ile had estimated last year to run through from end to
end four passenger trains and two goods trains; the passenger trains
to carry twenty persons each. Ile applied the same data to the
Dumfries branch. He had made allowance for all possible traffic,
not this was the result. He was quite certain that the two lines
could not exist on the traffic, and had he thought that two such lines
would be sanctioned he would not have advised any of his friends to
take a share, or have taken one himself. The competition that must
ensue would only end in a combination, from which the public would
greatly suffer. Looking at the table of the towns from which the
Dumfries and Nithsdale scheme expected their traffic, he saw many
places from which the Caledonian lisle took credit for traffic last year.
Cross-examined by Mr. Foasena=lle would not say that the
Ayrshire and Galloway line would be the best route from
Dumfries into Ayrshire, lent it would be a convenient
one. He did not know what sort of line that was, as he
had nothing to do with it. Ile had no objection to a line
from Kilmarnock and Duinfries if it could be shown that the local'
traffic would warrant it, arid if tile Caledonian scheme and extension
were opened, and not likely to suffer from the competition of this
Nithsdale line. Still he thought the two lines too near, and the
country too thinly populated, to warrant tire construction of both.
He was decidedly of opinion that there was not traffic for two lines.
If the Caledonian line was opened and paying 10 per cent., his views
would be very much modified ; then his opinion might be, that there
was room for another line. At present it would be hard on those
who had embarked their capital in the Caledonian scheme to allow
another line of railway without waiting to see what the traffic of
the line already granted would be. The Caledonian promoters as-
sumed the whole of the Dumfries traffic last year. Ile admitted the
branch now Proposed was substantially the same as the south pertlun
of the Nithsdale scheme of last
Until the issue of the
Caledonian was tried he
scheme of the kind like the notes anythink
eel a new
sanctioned by Parliament. In doing
notheadidsedaicshould
think inte-
rests of Ayrshire would be sacrificed, as they w
the Caledonian Extension. II thought that nothinguld be consulted by
ea
at present
Should be done that would damagethe construction and
of a great national scheme like tire Caledonian. The Whole capital
the Caledonian, Extension with which Ayrshire was to be accOrtit mo-
dated, was about 1,700,000/. In the:whole. The Ayrshire portion of this
Would be more expensive than that to Peebles. The expense would be
from 12,000/. to 14,0001. per mile. lie did not recollect the terms of
the prospectus of the Caledonians issued in 1844, which set forth that
the returns would be 8 per cent. tic understood the capital stated
there was 1,800,000/., whereas the capital in the Bill, when it went
before Parliament, was 2,100,000/.
IT f his made a considerable differ-
ence in the calculation of returns. Dumfries was not named in
the prospectus, he had always calculated for a considerable amount of
traffic from there. when brought
Re-examined—He was satisfied the estimates,
before Parliament last year, were fairly made. The. amount of
capital had been increased in order to meet the case, which close in-
vestigation subsequent to the issuing of tire prospectus required. Ile
was quite sure sh; per cent. was a fair calculation. lle would not
like to guarantee even that

In answer to a request of the Chairman,
Mr. Locke promised to prepare by to-morrow a table of the dis-
tance from London to Edinburgh, by the east coast route, In com-
parison with the London and Birmingham Grand Junction and Cale-
donian schemes ; also the distance from London to Glasg,ow by the
Caledonian, compared with the Dumfries and Ayrshire route, both
by Doiry as well as by the Earrhead and Neilston direct route.
Mr. Hope Johnstone, M.P., for Dumfriesshire, examined—Said he
_ _

was chairman of the Caledonian Company. It had always been in
view to accommodate Dumfries, but the main object was
a direct conentliaation between the north and the
south. He did not believe the Isilthsdale lino could Eco-exist
with the Caledonian, so at both to pay. Had both lines been granted
last year he couhi not have advise:l the shareholders to proceed with
the works. Wu:: his knowle,!ge of tile country, he considered if the
Dumfries Branch was ferreca alocg wall the Caledonian Extension
that an aburel .nt accommodation weull be given—lie would not
say a complete, still it woull be tura.:
be so well supplied was the district be
which was a thinly-populated agrier
estimate that the profits would not
The witness was cross-examined by Mr. LIDDELL, on behalf of the
Duke of Buceleuch, the Marquis of Queensberry, anal Lord Mansfield,
wb
~...,opt Du
fries,
la against the utearics Brench ; [also on behalf of the.
"wiar
elicitd.rnfriel, and Cerli.le scheme, fait no point of intoortanee
air. Smith, of alanstoani
tho
deposed as to the character of the valley of
the Niih. The country Ayrshire end, near to Cumnock,
was very good, and abounded ia
Cent-
pock, the val'ey of the Nith bench"' alt,
but alter leaviug New Cum-
i narrow and sterile, and
continued so till near to Dumfriesainwe very
it expanded and became
rich. The population in the neightacur=l uhar and Thorn-
hill wee very thin—both the agricultural and village population— 1
the route only supported one two-horse c‘oaclevillac was well ac-
quainted with tile drailline, and he thought the iteni of traffic under
epforosterous. Ile
this head, calculated by the Nithsdale Company,
Cumnock
did not believe that l2,&10 tons of tiles would be taken
from
Dumfries. Ile believed they could be made conveniently near
Dumfries. Besides, the draining could be as well carried out with
stones as by tiles. T., allow for such a tile traffic, there woulditi
required 03 tile works to be started at Cumnock, which was not at
all necessary. To use the number of tiles estimated for, 2,391 acres
would require to be drained yearly, at an expense of 24,0001.
The cross-examination of the witness did not materially vary the
points elicited by his examination in chief, beyond the admission that
be did not know tor a fact there was clay for tiles to be found in the
valley of the Nith, though, judging from the geological charActer Of

The portion that would not
veezi Dumfries and Cumnock,
teal district. Ile agretil in the

per cent,

the country, theremust be. He had been told that clay was found
at Sanquhar. _

To the CliAnt3fAN—He thought that eltty would be found also
between Thornhill and Algirth-bridge. The price of tiles at Cum-
nock was about 30s. a ton.

Re-examined—With the facilities of obtaining ston s in the valley
of the Nith, he did not think that tiles would be carried at any great
length. He would, under such circumstances, prefer stone to tiles.
The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow, at twelve o'clock.

s GROUP XX.
This Committee did not meet to-clay. Its sittings will be resumed
to-morrow at the usual hour.

GROUP XXVII.
LeThismon, eCralraan.
mirtteere-assembled to-day at the usual hour ; Sir Charles

SOUTH MIDLAND.

——— -
The formal evidence as to estimates, &c., commenced the pro-
ceedings of this morning.
Mr. Brown, Secretary to the Company, was examined to prove the
amount of capital, and how allotted, Sz.e.
This witness was subjected to along cross-examination by Mr. Ser-
geant Wrangham, with the view of showing that the present capital
was not the capital proposed to be raised by the original scheme ; and
also the extent of shares subsequently allotted to the Directors of
the Midland Railway Company, the scrip being then at a premium of
seven.
Mr. Jay was examined upon the subject of traffic, and confirmed
the evidence already given on that point.
The evidence on traffic was continued, and two witnesses, Mr.
Alger, from Bedford, and an agent from a colliery in Leicestershire,'
occupied the remainder of the day.
The Committee 'adjourned at four o'clock till to-morrow, when the
engineering evidence will be proceeded with.

TEE BUNI LONDON, , MONDAY EVENING, MAY 11, 1846.

members of the force were at liberty to attend any place of re-
ligious worship they thought fit. Those belonging to the Es-
tablished Church had seats provided for them in almost every
church in their respective districts; and Kith regard to the
others, they were left at full liberty to go wherever they pleased.

all the clergy of a rural deanery in Wiltshire, against the union
of the see's of St. Asaph and Bangor.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.

Lord FAVERSHAM presented petitions from York, against
the Charitable Trusts Bill.
Lord Eldon, the Bishop of Winchester, and Lord Campbell,
presented shinier petitions.
Lord CAMPBELL postponed his Registration Bill, which
stood to-night for the first reading.
CLERKS OF THE CROWN (IRELAND).
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE gave notice that he
would, on Friday next, call the attention of the House to the
late appointment of Clerks of the Crown in Ireland.
The Earl of ORKNEY presented a petition in favour of
free trade.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the Rev.
Dr. Magee, of Harold's Cross, Dublin, praying the House not
to pass into a law a measure which had been introduced by the
Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, and which would
sanction the introduction of Papal bulls into this country, by
which he would lie much alarmed.
GRAND JURY ASSESS RATES (IRELAND).
Earl GREY presented a petition from Basingsloe against
the rates levied under this Bill.
CONDITION OF RAILWAY LABOURERS.
The NOBLE EARL also presented a petition from Glasgow
praying their Lordships to adopt some measures to improve the
condition of the labourers employed on the numerous railways
throughout the country.
HIGH CONSTABLES' BILL.
On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND this Bill was
read a third time and passed.
THE RELIGIOUS OPINIONS' RELIEF BILL.
The Bishop of EXETER then rose to propose that the queg-
tions of which he had given notice with respect to this Eill
should be put to the Judges. He said their Lordships would
readily believe that it was with the deepest reluctance that he
rose to move their adoption, and that he hesitated much before
he prevailed on himself to give the Learned Judges the additional
trouble, which, in the event of their Lordships acceding to
them, would be imposed upon them. He felt this the more be-
cause at the present moment they were much oppressed by the
additional amount of business which they had to discharge.
He did not think their Lordships need go further for an
opinion as to what the law actually was than their own walls.
He hoped that the Noble and Learned Lcrd on the woolsack
would feel himself bound peculiarly to look upon the
matter in a judicial point of view. The Bill be-
fore their Lordships was brought in by the Noble and Learned
Lord himself. By this Bill it was proposed to strike out of
the statute-book those important statutes or parts thereof
which have been ever considered as-the main bulwarks of the
constitution of England—England, as an independent mo-
narchy. In the Bill before their Lordships, which had been
read a second time, and which it is hereafter proposed to
go into Committee upon, theiri Lordships would be
invited to repeal so much of an Act passed in the first year of
the reign of Queen Elizabeth to restore to the Crown its
ancientjurisdiction over the state of England. Their Lordships
would see that the tendency of that Act was to make it no longer
punishable to assert the supremacy of the Pope. He needed not
to remind their Lordships that this supremacy had been claimed
by the Pope prior to the reign of Queen Elizabeth. He had
claimed and exercised that power in deposing King John. The
same Pope (Innocent III.) claimed jurisdiction and power over
a succeeding King in the year 1215, in these words—" Is not
the. King of England our vassal, or, rather, our slave?"
This was the power to be restored by this Bill,
should their Lordships think fit to pass the same.
In these remote times Paul 111. deposed Henry VIII., and
released his subjects from their allegiance. Just before the
Act in question passed Paul IV. had acted with equal vio-
lence towards Queen Elizabeth. He declared it was the
height of presumption for Queen Elizabeth to claim the
crown of England without his permission. It was under
those provocations that the first statute of Elizabeth
was passed, and unless there was some inherent vigour in the
constitutional laws of England, which would make it, in spite
of the statue which the Noble and Learned:Lord proposed to re-
peal, penal for any one to put forth the power of the Pope to
any such extent, we will no longer protect it from
the recurrences of such attempts at power. The
object of his motion was that their Lordships would
satisfy themselves that of inherent power_ in the constitution
to prevent such offences as those. He had thought it right to
propose those questions, because it was not directly in the Bill
before their Lordships, nor in the Act which they proposed to
repeal any clause which made punishable to write, print, teach
by express words, deed, or act, or maliciously deny the
Queen's supremacy. The express denial of the Queen's
supremacy was not made punishable by the Ist
of Elizabeth. It asserted the Queen's supremacy, but
it said nothing on the subject of denial, nor did the Bill
which he held in his hand. Of course the Queen's supremacy
was as clear, undeniable, and unquestionable as any part of
the constitution of this land, over things spiritual as well as
temporal, and to deny that supremacy must be a grave offence
against the constitution, and ought to be punishable at
common law. But it was absolutely necessary for
this House to know whether that was the case or
or not before they pros/ceded to legislate with respect to the
penal enactments of the Ist statute of Elizabeth. On the sub-
ject of Royal supremacy, he need not tell their Lerdships that
they had the highest legal authority for stating that it was a
part—a special part—of the monarchy of this land.—
( Hear, hear.) He need not say that Lord Coke and
Sir Matthew Hale had expressed their opinions on that subject,
on the strongest terms. He, therefore, hoped that the
denial of that supremacy must be an offence against
the common law. He should be quite content if the
Noble Lord on the Woolsack would answer that question
decisively and say that it was punishable by the common law.
When on a former occasion he addressed their Lordships on
the second reading of this Bill, when his Noble and Learned
Friend on the Woolsack proposed the insertion of a declaration
of the Queen's supremacy, he declared that he should
have no hesitation in expressing himself satisfied with
that, if his Noble and Learned Friend would go one
step further—if he would consent to a punishment
being annexed for the crime of denying the Sovereign's supre-
macy. But his Noble and Learned Friend refused to advance
this step ; he said that this was what he could not do ; that it
was contrary to the policy which had actuated them in
bringing forward the Bill ; and this was the reason why
he wished to extort from his Noble and Learned
Friend the inqui.y whether the denying of the Queen's
supremacy would be punishable at common law.
The Pope claimed a spiritual jurisdiction in pro exteriorum,
but if tne claims advanced by him were alloyed, it would give
a power to him which their ancestors viewed with great jealousy,
because they thought that it gave to a foreign power an essen-
tial authority over the Crown of this country. But he (the
Bishop of Exeter) must be permitted to say, that
the jurisdiction of the Pope in pro exteriorum
was of that extended character that the subjects
of this country could not allow. The Pope's claim
in pro interioti, affected the conscience, and was,
therefore, of a most formidable character. The Pope
had the power of deposing kings and governments,
by absolving men from their oaths of allegiance. It was,
therefore, he thought, necessary to protect this country against
such influence if they could do so consistently, and through the
medium of an Act of Parliament. The House would find that
the Pope not only still had that power, but that it was
justified by some of the most modern and liberal
Roman Catholics writers of this country. Dr. Milner and
Dr. O'Connell, than whom there was not a more liberal man,
for instance, justified, nay, advocated the power of the
Pope to absolve parties from their allegiance. The
extract from the work of the Rev. Gentleman went to
show the great danger of the power of absolution from oath
by the ministers of the Roman Catholic religion. An officer
of the army, for instance, professing that faith, might
be absolved from the oath which he had taken,
and disavow his allegianec to his Sovereign.—(Beer.)
The individual was not allowed to judge for himself, but was
entirely in the power of those who were the heads of the reli-
gion which he professed, as they led him to believe that they
could absolve him from any indignity. Need he say that in
this consisted the whole danger to which he referred. He said
this power of absolving from oath, which was admitted by the
highest Roman Catholic authorities, must not be set forth
in this Protestant land—that such a power could not
exist without great danger to the country. —( Hear. )
Their Lordships would see that there was a wide difference
between entertaining an opinion, and extolling., putting forth,
and maintaining it to the world. Let those persons in com-
munion with the Pope believe, if they pleased, his supremacy,
and let them in their conscience act as they thought the doctrine
taught them; but let them not feel at liberty to set forth to the
world those opinions. They are immoral, and being immoral,
they are consequently indecent. Would the opinion of the
Anabaptists be tolerated in this country, who maintain that
every thing should be held in common? The remarks
he was making did not of course refer to those
Noble Lords present, who were in communion with the Pope.
It was proposed to strike out these statutes from the statute-
book, without any practical evil having been brought forward
as resulting from 'their continuance on the statute-book. No;
it was not said that there was any grievance of that kind, but
they were told that they were put into an invidious
position. If they were a people of that sort he had,
for his own part, not the slightest objection to
extend to them any privileges which were consistent
with the full security and enjoyment of the Protestant
Constitution of this country. He would now proceed to say
something with respect to the other question that he should
move their Lordships to propose to the Learned Judges—he
meant that which asked, whether independently of so much of
the said Act of the first year of the reign of Elizabeth
before recited, and also before the said Act passed in the fifth
year of the same reign, and also of the Act passed in the thir-
teenth year of the reign of Queen Elizabeth as is above recited,
and also of the fifth year of the said Queen's reign, and also of
an Act passed in the thirteenth year of the acid Queen's reign,
intituled " An Act against the bringing in and putting in exe-
cution of bulls, writings, or instruments, and other superstitious
things, from the See oißome," it is an offence against the law
of England, and punishable hs such, to bring in or put in execu-
tion any such bull, writings,orinstruments from the see of Rome.
He was not sure whether this question would receive from the
Learned Judges such an answer a 3 would fully satisfyhim in
this case. He was afraid that those learned persons
would hesitate before they spoke of bulls generally.
in such a manner. He wished they might. He hoped
that they might. Bulls were matters known to the laws of
England. They were mentioned in the Statutes and laws
of England. Therefore the Learned Judges would, he
prepared to put a construction upon the word " bull."
Their Lordships would permit him to say that bulls
were instruments that had passed as it were under
the Great Seal of the Pope of Rome. They
were in fact such
_instruments as passed under the Great
Seal of our own Gracious Sovereign. tt Briefs " were
on the contrary under the Privy Seal of Rome.
bulls were so called (if their Lordships would
forgive him whilst he made the explanation from
a barbarous Greek word, " boula, " which signi-
fied a leaden instrument. There were "bulls of grace''
to
d
" bulls of justice'," the seals of the former being
attached
the :written documents by twine, whilst those of
the latter consisted of some less dignified material.
In respect of these butls, he would remind their Lordships
that it was not until a late year that it was absolutely compul-
sory on Queen Elizabeth to propose to Parliament acd on 4ar-
liamcnt to enact this statute which was now about to
be expurged. That statute not only made it
high treason to introduce a
bull such as
that which Pious the Fifth issued against Queen Elizabeth,
deposing that Sovereign, declaring her
.throne vacant, and call-
ing on her subjects to disobey her authority. It was not for that
reason that this statute was enacted, but because it was found
impossible to define the bulls in such a way as to make it
safe to permit the introduction of any bulls at all.
and therefore it was that this statute very wisely, as
he thought, prohibited all Bills whatever. He should
be very glad if they could possibly discover any
mode in which the introduction of these Bills
could be punished in a Better manner; but the act
of introducing hulls into this land interfered with the
Sovereign power of the land, and was therefore
in itself an act of high treason, and therefore
it was that these two great men, Sir Mathew Hale and Coke,
defended this particular Act as necessary for the best interests
of the country ; that very Act it was now proposed to rescind,
He should be glad if the Noble and Learned Lord, when he
proposed to strike out, this statute would propose to intro-
duce a something which would perfect them generally from
the introduction of papal bulls into this country, and if they
found that the common law did riot affect this object, then he
trusted that the Noble and Learned Lord would insert a
clause which would answer that object. Before he sat down
he felt it necessary to make one or two remarks, because it ,

B 111DPO II T ELECTION.
Mr. G. I3ANKES said he had a petition to present en
rather a peculiar nature, and he trusted he should have the
indulgence of the House if he departed from the general
rule which had been laid down, that no Member should
address the House on presenting a petition. The
petition, however, which he had to present on this occasion
involved a matter of privilege, and a matter upon which the
House would have to decide. He believed be might at once
state that there was no precedent to be found similar to the ca:e
he had now to lay before the House, and he had some doubt
whether it would be considered a question of privilege or not ; at
all events, supposing this petition to be true, and he had no
reason to doubt that it was true, it deserved the serious at-
tention of the House. He would state the substance of it, in
order that the House might judge for itself cf the degree of
importance to be attached to it. The petition was
signed b 7 William Lockhart, an elector of the borough
of Bridport. The House was aware that the minutes
of the evidencp of the Bridport Election Committee had been
printed. It would be seen from that retort tl at the decision
of that Committee turned solely upon the question as to whe-
ther the vote of an elector—who was the Mr. Lockhart in
question—which gave the majority for the late sitting Member,
had been erroneously placed in the return. The Committee
found that it had, and the decision caused the sitting of the
Hon. Member who new sat in the House for Bridport.
The SPEAKER intimated to the Hon. .Member that the
question involved no matter of privilege, and it was
out of order to speak on the presentation of the petition.
Mr. BANKES—It would appear, then, by this petition that
there were grounds of objection to Mr. Baillie Cochrane's elec-
tion, but it was also certain that there were equal objections to
the election of Mr. Romilly ; but during the last year
the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government had
declared the determination of the Committees should be
satisfactory.
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Member must give notice of
a breach of privilege before he can introduce the subject in this
manner.

Mr. BANKES—Then I must rest upon this position, that
the petitioner should be heard at the bar of the House.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
The Bill for the Northern and Southern Connecting Rail-
way was postponed.
HANTS POLICE CASE.
Mr. COLLETT wished to ask whether there was any
foundation for the statement that police-constable Hale still
remained in the police force of that county, and whether Sir
Charles Hay wood still remained in the magistracy?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
the question put by the Hon. Member, the House would see,
had been put upon an exparte statement.
Mr. COLLETT said that that statement was the founda-
tion of his question ; and he had every reason to believe it was
correct.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM hoped that some time longer than
four days would be given to make an inquiry such as that called
for by the Hon. Member into the character and conduct of a
gentleman of high character, and well known to them all.
Mr. O'CONer ELL—Let the Hon. Member hand the,state-
ment to the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. COLLETT said he would persevere in his notice to
ask the question, and begged to hand the statement to the
Right Hon. Gentleman.
THE CORN BILL.
Sir J. GRAHAM moved the order of the day for the third
reading of the Corn Bill.
The Marquis of G RANBY said, that in rising to address the
House upon this question, he trusted he would receive the in-
dulgence of the House for a short time. Ile would oppose this
Bill, because upon it depended the fate of the poor man and the
labourer, and because it was a question of whether the Beg-
lishman was to be superior to the foreigner. Before be entered
on the question before the House, he wished to make a few ob-
servations on the manufactures of this country. The Noble
Lord near him (Lord G. Bentinck) the other night said, and
said truly, that they did not desire to see the manufactures of
this country decline.—( Hear, hear.) They did not wish to see
the stream of its prosperity conducted into worn-out and useless
channels. They wished to see it like the noble river outside
those walls, flowing in a continued and full stream, and not
like a rushing torrent, that at one time inundated the
country, and at another, dried up to an useless
and unprofitable pool. They did not wish to see
the manufacturing interest decline, although they
knew the evils of the present system ; for when properly
conducted they were of benefit to the country. If any proof
of that fact were wanted, the Right Hon. Baronet the First
Minister of the Crown, whom he did not then see in his place,
had given it to them the other night. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had said that those counties in the neighbourhood of the
manufacturing districts were more prosperous than those
counties further removed. The inference that should be drawn
from that was, that they should endeavour to draw the two in-
terests closer together. We should endeavour to
create a better circulation of the blood in their
own veins, and should not assist other counties which
did not require it. These were the principles
which should be applied, and he believed that these were the
principles which had long been entertained by many of the
manufacturers. He did hope that they would show the world
that her Majesty's Government were not bound by the Anti-
Corn-law League, by not giving up their present principles.
The object of the corn-laws was much misunderstood. They
(the anti-protectionists) said that they starved the people. He
denied it.--(Hear, hear.) He said that their object was to
supply food to the people at a constant and moderate price.—
( Hear, hear.) There were two great principles involved in
this question. The first principle was that by the continuance
of protection they would be able to feed the people from the
produce of their own soil. Employment would be given to the
people of this country—healthy and manly employment—an
employment under which, if many of those gentlemen who sat
till a late hour in this heated and ill-ventilated apartment
would have recourse to, they would in a short time become
much more vigorous, and capable to discharge their duties
with more etlicacyt. The second principle was that if
any deficiency took place in the supply of their own produce
they would be enabled to have from their colonies as much as
would meet that deficiency, and by this means the colonies
would be benefited; but if scarcity arose, and the corn-laws
were abolished, foreign produce would then come into competi-
tion with their colonial produce, to the detriment of the latter.
—( Hear.) The Noble Lord near him (Lord G. Bentinck)
proved that the capabilities of this country were able to meet
the demands of its increasing population ; for from the recent
return of the averages he showed that there were 19,000
quarters of an increase of corn as compared with 1842.
(" Hear, hear," from Lord George Bentinck). Another point
which, though not immediately connected with the corn-laws,
had yet an indirect reference to them, and was of very great
importance. As it was much better stated in a book which
he held in his hand he would take the liberty of read-
ing it from a work of Mr. Allison "On population."
The Noble Lord then read a passage, showing how corn had
been bought up by the speculators and bonded till a period of
scarcity. This he considered diminished the supply in our
markets, while it augmented that of the foreign market.
He would advise the House to pause and consider well
what effect such a system had upon the scarcity of corn, and,
therefore, whether it would not be better to reform such an
abuse, than to pass such a sweeping measure as that before
the House. The Right Hon. Baronet had informed the House
that those laws which he once considered politic, were now
unjust. Looking at the amount of taxation in this country, and
at the amount of capital which had been spent on the faith
of those laws in improving lend, he could only say that they
were not unjust, but highly politic and necessary to the
state of the country.—( Hear, hear, from Lord G. Bentinck.)
But he went en to state that there was great distress under the
present corn-law. He feared that might be true in particular
cases, but he thought that the farmer who threw off his good
warns great coat on a winter's day because it was cold would
act just as wisely as the farmer who threw off pro-
tection because some distress existed.--(Cheers.) They
were also told that protection was the bane of agri-
culture, and that it wanted competition to excite it. lle
denied that protection was such ; but if it was, must it net
also be the bane of manufactures? It was not likely that
it should be bane of the one and not. ,of the other.
Why, what a great injustice; the Hon. Baronet was fond of
the word, to protect the one and leave the other decenceless.
Of course, the answer would be that protection was afforded to
the former for the purposes of revenue ; and he would ask, had
notpl a
owhich liecould agriculturethe same
recommendcl claim upon
On ttho theem. He
Righth a , hvoeo
considered,
Baronet
a
it was a great commercial plan, and one which would answer
all purposes. They might read in the first pages of almost
all economists
hear.)tleiaatmoderate
\y
taxationh thisdid
thenconsi wasderably
stltiiemuyleartey political
tihnideneugos ntroh_ich they wanted. Let him adopt this
plan and he would do away with the injustice and double
the revenue.—( Hear, hear.) But in truth protection was a
benefit in one case as much as the other. He held in his hand
a letter written by a Noble ancestor of his more than two cen-
turies ago, and he considered that the cause of protection could
be stated by few in that House in a clearer manner. The no-
bleman to whom he referred was Lord Travers Roos.
The letter was addressed to Mr. Carey. In this letter the writer
said that an importation of corn was an exportation of money, and
that even in a case of necessity it was a hurt to the common-
wealth. If the importation of corn was unlimited the effect of it
would be to destroy husbandry, and therefore the poor wou!d
starve for the want of work, as tillage land would be thrown into
sheep pasturage. What, asked the wi iter, was the use of corn
being cheap if the poor man had no money to purchase it with?
This was the opinion entertained in 1610 on this subject. He
now came to the most important point in the argument. It
was the relation of the rate of wages to the price of I..ed.
( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet ,the Member for
Tamworth, said that he could no longer sup! ort the corn-laws,
because the price of corn did not affect the rate of wages. The
Right Hon. Baronet dismissed the manufacturing labourers at
once from his:consideration. To that be ( Lord John Manners)
would say he had heard it stated by more than one Member
on the opposite side of the House, that the principal at gument
why the corn-laws should be repealed was, that by the reduced
fwoar
eg
iegsn
eprais.r_l l(
ara, bo
hear.)urer they c
This
was
be
tterpoint, co mpe e with
however,
in
o ihist
(Lord J. Manners's) opinion that should not be determined in
such a summary manner. But he would proceed with the
argument as it related to the agricultural labourers.
The Right Hon. Baronet said that during the year
1837 the price of corn varied 385. Between 1837 and
1841 the variation of the price was 363; whereas
during the same period, the rate of wages varied but ls.,
varying from 10s. to lls. per week. NOW, he (Lord J.
Manners) must say, had this been the ease, there would have
been some show of reason for not maintaining the corn -laws.
But he submitted, the Right Hon. Caronet had been mistaken,
in the argument. If the Right Hon. Baronet would go down
to Thetford, he would find it otherwise than he had repre-
sented, and that though the money rates of wages might not
have much varied the actual wages received in other modes
than by money, had greatly altered. He (Lord J. Manners)
relied on certain returns furnished to the House of Lords by a
Noble Relative of his, and these returns showed what bad been
the variation in the rate of wrges in the neighbourhood of Bel-
voir. In 1838 he collected the average wages of forty-two
labourers near .Belvoir, by going throughout the different
cottages in the labourers.
(LEFT STEAKINU.)

HOUSE OF LORDS
Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
ST. ASAPH AND 13ANGOR.
The Bishop of HEREFORD presented a petition from the
Rural Dean of Swansea union of thes-! sees.
SELLLNG SPIRITUOUS LIQUORS ON THE
SABBATH:_

The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented a petiton
from the town of Canterbury, against the sale of spirituous
liquors on tilt' Lord's-day, and praying that the law which
regulated the sale of those liquors in London on that day might
be extended to tl.,e provinces.
CHA RITABLE TRUSTS' BILL.
The Most REV. PRELATE also presented a petition from the
Corporation of Deal against this Bill. He had heard that there
was no corpse ration in the kingdom which acted more consci-
entiously in tl to application of the funds entrusted to ther care,
for charitable purposes, than the Corporation of Deal.'
SUNDAY TRADING.
The Earl s T. GERMANS presented a petition against
the sale of spiri,'Lpus liquors on Sunday.
SEES OF ST. ASAPII AND BANGOR.
The Duke of :RICHMOND presented a petition signed by

Iwas only that feeling the want of these laws, he had
been compelled to ask the Noble Lord these questions.
The were called upon to acknowlecfre this. Papal power which
had for ages been the bane of nations without the slightest rea-
son being urged in the 13111 itself for their doing so.
Those who had introduced this Bill had not
taken upon themselves the peril to say that it
was expedient to repeal this power. There was scarcely a
single statute which did not give some reason, in the shape of
preamble, for its being passed ; and were they in this instance
to depart from the constitutional rules of the country, and
pass an Act, without saying why or wherefore, which
affected the supremacy of the Crown of England. It was
remarkable that it was only two years ago since the Noble and
Learned Lord struck out of the Bill the very clauses he now in-
troduced. The Noble and Learned Lord opposite had upon
the occasion to which he alluded introduced .a Bill for
repealing these Acts, and he applied to his Noble
and Learned Friend to know how such an Act
was to be met, and to express an earnest hope
that it would not be permitted to pass, and he had the satis-
faction of finding afterwards that it did not pass. It was for
these reasons that he thought it necessary to appeal to the
Noble and Learned Lord who represented the Government
in that House, and to the other Noble and Learned Lords on
the opposite Benches to apply their judicial minds to the ques-
tions which he should take the liberty of propounding to them.
The Right Rev. Prelate concluded by proposing that the fol-
lowing questions be submitted to the judges :—Whether,
independently of so much of the Act passed in the first
year of the reign of Queen Elisabeth, intituled, " An
Act restoring to the Crown the ancient jurisdietion
over the estate ecclesiastical and spiritual, and abolish-
ing all foreign powers repugnant to the same," as makes
It punishable to affirm, hold, stand with, set forth, maintain,
or defend, as therein is mentioned, the authority, pre-
eminence, power, or jurisdiction, spiritual or ecclesiastical,
of any foreign prince, prelate, person, state, or potentate,
theretofore claimed, used, or usurped within this realm, or to
put in use or execute anything for the extolling, advancement,
setting forth, maintenance, or defence of any such pretended
or usurped jurisdiction, power, pre-eminence, and authority,
or any part thereof, and of an Act passed in the fifth year
of the said Queen, intitled "An Act for the Assurance of
the Queen's Royal Power over all Estates and Subjects
within Her Dominions," it is an offence against the law of
England, and punishable by the same, by writing, printing,
teaching, :preaching, express words, deed, or act, advisedly
and maliciously to deny the Queen's supremacy, or to affirm,
maintain, and defend any such pretended or usurped power,
jurisdiction, or authority of the Pope, or any foreign prince,
prelate, person, state, er potentats within this realm?
(LEFT SITTING.)

A VISIT TO MESSRS. STEPHEN
SON'S LOCOMOTIVE ENGINE FACTORY.

(From the Newcastle Guardian.)
Stephenson and the locomotive are names almost synony-
mous, and everywhere convey the impression of greatness
and power. Their influence is now felt in every quarter of
the globe, and is doing the work of civilization, both here
and in other countries, in a manner and with a rapidity
almost incredible. Other men, it is true, are profiting by the
ingenuity and the skill of the Stephensons—are gaining opu-
lence and power by the employment of that simple yet mag..
nificent piece of mechanism which they first set in motion
and made patent to the world ; but the name and the fame
of these truly great benefactors of the human family, are
imperishable, and, even amid the whirlpool of tiny characters
that have sprung up, through their labours, they stand forth,
conspicuous and exalted among the eminent and the good of
the age.
Curiosity, and an assurance that a brief account of it might
not be unacceptable to our readers, recently induced us to
visit Messrs. Stephenson's leviathan establishment. This
vast workshop, it may interest those at a distance to know,•
is situated in South-area, in the south-west district of this
town, close to the river. The works are divided into two
factories, on either side'of the street, and thus called "east"
and "west." The latter, though the newer, is the more ex-
tensive of the two, occupying several acres of ground. On
entering it, the stranger is at once struck with the novelty,
as well as the extent and variety of the operations dis-
closed. The ear is saluted with the noise of some hundreds
of hammers reverberating on boilers and anvils, and the eye
is startled by the sight of so many blazing fires and
sundry workmen, with the greatest sang froid, carrying
about huge bars and plates of red-hot iron ! On examining
the various departments, however, the visitor 'soon finds
enough in each to engage his closest attention. He is first
introduced to a workshop of unusual dimensions, level with
the ground, where locomotives are being partially com-
pleted, and where upwards of forty hands are busily oc-
cupied in fitting up different parts of the machinery.
Over this shop is an equally capacious room, accommo-
dating about seventy men and boys, who polish and other-
wise prepare the inside gearing and finer parts of the engines.
Each stands in front of a " vice," at which the usual " filing"
and "chiselling" are performed; but ingeniously-constructed
machinery, driven by steam• power, is placed along the entire
space of the room, and facilitates the more difficult task of
cutting and modelling cranks, shafts, and wheels. Proceed-
ing to another part of the works, several locomotives are seen
in course of trial, on rails laid for the purpose, and others in
course of completion, under a large shed. Adjoining this is
the packing, framing, and painting shop, where locomotives,
intended for railways at a distance, are taken to pieces, after
having been previously tried, and carefully packed in wooden
boxes of unusual size and strength. The painting of the ex-
terior of the carriages is also done in this department, and
the framing put together. The boiler-yard, or what is face-
tiously termed " the musical saloon," is the next place of.
interest. Musical this portion of the works most certainly,
is, and the music is of the right sort, too—the music of in-
dustry and enterprise. Fancy an angular shed, in which are
some fifty or sixty huge fires, glowing before the roar of the
blast; about two hundred stalwart men and boys, all ham-
mering, rivetting, or otherwise making a deafening noise,
some with immense bars and plates of red-hot iron, others
inside of boilers or fire-boxes—fancy such a sight, and you
have an imperfect idea of this "musical saloon." Many in-
genious and beautiful specimens of mechanical art are, be-
sides, seen at work in this department, such as a machine by
which riveting bolts are moulded and fitted, and another by
which the perforations in the copper fire-boxes of the engines
are executed with much skill and exactness. Leaving this,
the visitor is conducted to the shop where the tenders are
completed, and where a number of joiners are at' work
making the boxes used for packing the engines sent to a dis-
tance. A fine saw-mill for cutting the heavy pieces of tim-
ber required, is here at work, and, in an upper apartment,
wooden patterns for the machinery are prepared by skilful
artizans.

The east factory differs little from the west, nearly the
same kinds of work being performed in both. It is less in
extent, but equally interesting and important to the visitor.
Some branches are done here which we did not observe else-
where. Engravers, for example, are constantly employed
preparing the plates bearing the engine-makers' name, and
also the letters for the name of the locomotive. All the brass
castings are hkwewise done in the east factory. Every part
of the locomotive, except the metal castings, are prepared
and completed in both factories. The drawings and plans of
theengines are executed in a separate department of the
works, by a number of artists, who, judging from the speci-
mens shown us, seem to seflect no ordinary credit on their
worthy employers.
In passing through the various departments, the visitor
cannot fail to observe the singularly well arranged and or-
derly manner in which everything in this great establisment
is conducted. Nothing like disorder or confusion appears
anywhere, and the various branches seem to proceed with
exrraordlnary exactness and regularity. In several of the
different shops, little boards arc seen with the name of some
distinguished contritutor to the arts and sciences inscribed,
such as Watt, Maudslay, Smeaton, &c. In the east factory,
this feature of the establishment assumes more of a loyal
character, the names being the Prince of Wales, the Princess
Royal, &c.

It is almost unnecessary to inform our readers that the
Messrs. Stephenson's establishment is the largest and most
complete, of its kind, in the world; and such is the demand
for locomotives that they have lately been obliged to open
another factory, which is now being furnished, at West Forth
Banks, They employ nearly one thousand men and boys,
and pay weekly, in wages, about 1,000/. Apprentices, who
are admit ted only on payment of a handsome premium, are
sent to them from all parts of the world, and from nearly
all ranks of society. At present, the demand for locomo-
tives is such that they cannot furnish the numbers ordered.
Nearly all they have completed for some time past, and are
now completing, are for foreign lines of railway. During the
last year, they have sent out fully fifty-six locomotives, and
this year the number is expected to increase to about eighty,
besides repairing not a few old engines. Such an establish-
ment may well be pronounced one of the wonders of modern
times—a noble example of British enterprise and skill, and a
lasting honour to its worthy proprietors, and especially to the
north of England.