The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-26 00:00:00

there—no, they must set to work in earnest, and reduce
all the services to a very Brea: extent. This was the only
way in which that House could perform ifs duty to the
people; they ought not to vote for a single estimate with-
out coming to a fixed and unanimous determination of vo-
ting for a great reduction of the taxes. It was not proper
that there should he larger establishments kept up than
the people could pay for. It was quite vain to think
they could satisfy their constituencies, or afford relief to the
people in any other way than that of reducing the taxes.
which must be done by reducing the expenditure and esta-
bliehmente. Owing to the extent these had been keptjtip to,
to the change in currency, and other circumstances, the peo-
ple were now paying an amount of taxation more grievous,
if not greater, than they were paying in IBIS. Was it
theref mre fit that we should persevere in keeping our esta-
blishments up at this rate? There was nothing in the
state of the c untry which called for their maintenance,
but there was every cause for their reduction. If the
state of the country should he such as to requite forces
kept up, the question would still be as to the amount to
which they could be reduced; hut the best means of se-
curing general safety and protection will be to reduce taxa-
tion, and so to relieve the oppre sive burdens of the people.
He had given notice of a motion, " That it is expedient,
before voting the estimates for the naval and military
establishments for the public service of the year, that
this House should he informed of the state of the fin :Imes
of the country, and whether any, and what relef, to the
people from the burden of taxation, in order that the
establishments may he suited thereto." He should also
move a resolution, " Teat it is imperative on this House
to require a large reduction of taxation as the best means
of affording relief to the country." He trusted that no
Member of that House wool t think that in proposing
these resolutions, he had the remotest intention of throw-
ing any difficulty in the way of Ministers—(A laugh from
the Ministerial benct,es)—he did not at all wish to inter-
fere with the Ministers ; but he intended them as intima-
tion—a hint—it might be a broad one certainly—(A
laugh)—to them that they must reduce their estimates so
as to allow of a proportionate reduction of taxation. The
Hon. Member having again read his m ohms,
The SPEAKER put them from the Chair.
Loud ALTHORP rose to reply. With respect to the
change in the financial year, his Hon. Friend had not
correctly stated the objects which hail been contemplated
by Ministers in that alteration ; but which, unfortunately,
had not been accomplished. The intention had been, that
the supplies should be voted by the commencement of the
year, and that the statements of the revenue for the con
elusion of the previous year should be laid b fore the
House before the end of that year. In pursuance of this
plan the Minister+ had not laid the estimates fur the en-
suing year before the Hons. yet. The Hon. M•onber gave
as his object in proposing his resolutions, that Parliament
and the country at large shou d be informed, in the first
place, as to tire state of the finances before they voted the
estimates, an as to know exactly what they have to expend.
This, he believed, was a lair statement of the Hon. Mem-
ber's proposed objects.—(Hear.) He must say he had
been somewhat surprised to hear the Hon. Gentleman
refer, in support of his views, to the report of the Finance
Committee. The recommendation of this Committee cer-
tainly was, that Parliament should not vote more than
was absolutely necessary for the purposes of time State. It
was unnecessary to cite this recommendation, for the
principle it laid down was one which the House was at
present guided by, to cut down the taxation to the lowest
possible amount consietent with the interests of the State,
and then to suit the expenditure to it. The Hon. Gentle-
man said, that the only way by which a reduction of
taxation could lie produced, was by a reduction of the ex-
penditure; this, of course, was one great mode ; but there
might also be a reduction of taxation produced by an in-
crease in the revenue. The Hon. Gentleman had truly
stated the deficiency at the close of last year, at twelve
hundred and forty thousand pounds, but the Hon. Member
had forgotten to take into account the immense reduction
in expenditure in the estimate for this year. In fact, the
Hon. Member altogether took too gloomy a view of out
condition. The Hon. Member, in proposing the motion,
had said that he felt it necessary to press upon Govern-
ment for a reduction of taxation, from his persuasion that
they would not institute such a reduction if left to them-
selves. He (Lord Althorp), thought this charge very
unjust, and one tehieh could not be borne out by facts. The
very first step he himself had taken upon entering into
office, had been to make a large reduction of t txes—a
reduction so large, that the revenue had considerably suf-
fered from it. Surely, theret4e, he could not be accused
of any want of inclination to promote every possible reduc-
tion ; and he perfectly agreed, that the only effectual
relief which could he given to the people would be in the
reduction of taxes. The greatest portion of the Hon.
Member's speech, he must observe, had been inapplicable
to the present motion, fir it was on the question as to
what number of men should be voted for the naval and
military forces—a question which could be better discussed
when the House were called upon to give their vote as to
the number of men to compose them ; and he should,
therefore, decline entering on this discussion himself at
present. The question they had now to decide was,
whether they would vote the estimates for the year before
a statement was laid before them of the balance-sheet of
the year ? Now he (Lord Althorp) contended, that the
proper principle was, that the House, in voting supplies,
should nor be guided by the hal ince-sheet of the past
ye tr, hut by what they considered as requisite for the service
of time year. He objected to the principle laid down by
the Hon. Member, for lie thought that the expenditure
ought to be regulated solely by the necessities of the
country.

Mr. ROBINSON did not consider the Noble Lord's
answer such a one as at all to impugn the proposition of
the Hon. Member for Middlesex, in which he entirely
concurred. With respect to the alteration in the currency
year, the Noble Lord had corroborated the statements of
the Hon. M tither.

Lord ALTHORP explained. What he sail was quite
the reverse. It would be utterly impossible for him to
give t, e balance-sheet of the year ending April sth before
April sth came.
Sir. ROBINSON contended that in general principle
the House ought to be in possession of the fullest informa-
tion as to the state of the general finances before they
vot,d the supplies. He repeated that he had not heard
the slightest answer to the Hon. Member's propo•ition ;
and if that Hon. M-mber oivided on the question, he
he should most certainly have his support. He did not
blame the Ministers at all for t.ie delay in bringing for-
ward the estimates ; the engrossinz nature of the busiro es
wi.ich had hitherto eventually occupied the attention of
the House sufficiently answered for them.

An HON. MEMBER, whose name we could not collect,
expressed the fullest confidence in the determination of
Ministers to economise to the greatest possible extent.
The people, however, only expected fair play, but they
would not be satisfi, d with less than fair play. He would
repeat the question he had proposed to the Ministers.
Was it their intention to bring forward any measure of
relief I.r the people, either in the Committee or on any
other occasion ? Something, he was sure, must be done
to satisfy the people.
Lord ALTHORP said, with respect to the question of
the Hon. Mcmi er. it was impossible for him to give any
specific answer. R lief for the people inns, depend, not
upon tine, but on different measures. It was the duty of
his Majesty's Government to consider all the measures
which could give relief to the people. One mode, certaimy,
of relieving them, was by financial measures ; and he
was anxious to bring forward measures which he
thought might tend to their relief. The question, how-
ever, of the Hon. Member, was so vaguely put, that it
was impossible to give it a more decisive answer. He
honed, however, that the House would believe that every
measure which was brought torward—as he was sure it
was so intended—would give relief to the people.—( Hear.)

Mr. BERRIES could not concur with the Hon.
Member for Middlesex in the motion de had made; but
he did concur with him in many of his observations, and
thought that they bad received no answer from the other
side. He could not concur with the Noble LoNI in the
otopriety of going into a Committee of Supply before the
Noble Lot d had given that information which he, in
common with the Hon. Member for Middles.x, thought
necessary. He did not agree, imbed, with all the prin-
c•ples laid down by t e Hon. Member for MAdlesex.
In his opinion, the first step was to ascertain the exigen-
cb s of the State, and next to make the revenue of the
State accord with them. if the House were to deal with
the 11• venue, and were to apply the revenue of the year to
the services of the year, it would, he believed, frequently
run into greet extiavaganre. One of the reasons which
the Noble Lord assigned for not giving a satisfictory ex-
planation was, that the financi d year was not yet ended,
and that be was not able, accordingly, to make a complete
statement of the finances for the year. But one quarter
made very little difference in such a vast revenue as ours.
It should, however, be rememb,red, that one advantage of
the change whieb was much dwelt upon at the time it
was proposed was, that it would enable the Government
to bring before the House the expenditure for the year,
and all the wants of the year. The House of Commons,
it was said, would not have the consideration of the votes
for the year brought under its notice till it had had time
to consider the tevenue and the resources of the country.
Ili, called upon the House to consider the situation in
which the Government hail placed itself with reference
to this subject. The present Government had gone
far beyond any other Goverment in calling upon