The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-27 00:00:00

NING, MAY 27, 1846.

Noble and Learned Friend gave them the price of wheat in
Dantzic, and the rates of freight charged for bringing it to this
country.
Lord BROUGHAM begged pardon for interrupting his
Noble Friers], but perhaps he would be saving him a
good deal of trouble by stating that the figures he gave were
the calculations of others and not of himself.—( Hear, hear 7)
What he said was in this sense, " You who oppose the Bill
say the prices of wheat in Dantelc and the rates of freight are
so and so" and not in the sense of the figures being his own
conclusions or his own calculations.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of HARDWICK under these circumstances would
pass on to ar other part of his Noble and Learned Friend's
speech.—( Hear, hear.) The variations of the fluctuation in
the price of corn in Philadelphia and other countries as com-
pared with England were far greater, and showed that the
effect of protection nos not injurious. It was said that re-
ducing the rents would be accomplishing the whole matter.
He would say, in reference to that proposition, that if the income
of their Lordships were reduced only ene-fourth,
the consequences to this country, and even to the manufactur-
ing intere ts, would he most disastrous. He would quote a
letter from a political economist, with the view of showing the
pernicious effects of such a doctrine. ( The Noble Lord then
quoted a letter written by Col ,nel Torrens to Air. Seymour, in
which he stated that the Anti-Corn-law League were well
aware that the reduction of rents would not produce any cor-
responding benefits, but the reverse, upon the agricultural or
manufacturing classes.) That, continued the Noble Lord, was
the opinion of a great political economist, and it was one in
which he perlectly concurred, that upon the working classes
a reduction in rents would necessarily entail a pro-
portionate fall in the value of their industry.
It was said that dependence on foreign countries
for their supplies was of no importance. His Noble Friend
near him (Lord Stanley) had cut the ground from under him
so completely on this point that nothing was left to him to add
to it. He must say, however, that he had still some confi-
dence in the wisdom of their ancestors; and though their opi-
nion might not be considered of much value in these days, he
must say that the independence of this country from foreign
influence and foreign assistance formed a most important fea-
ture in every statesman's consideration. This was the case
with regard to corn, as well:as every other matter. In the set-
tlement of the great question relative to the Pretender, in
the last century it was thought right to carry out this prin-
ciple as far as possible, and to put no monarch on the throne
who belonged to any foreign or Popish country. In the sen-
tence pronounced at that time by Lord Hardwick on Lord
Lovat, that opinion was very strongly expressed. He alluded
to those things merely for the purpose of showing the
anxiety felt by their ancestors with regard to keep-
ing this country independent of foreign influence.
It seemed to him that the question of dependence on foreigners
was, of all others, the most important in the discussion on this
mosenro. He woata ask their Lordships to consider the great
cost and expense to which this country had been subjected in
consequence of the interference of foreign powers. He would
entreat their Lordships to take into consideration the inter-
ference of Hanover, for instance ; and when he spoke of Han-
over, he believed that no greater political blessing had been con-
ferred on this country by that Illustrious Princess that now
reigned over us, than that through her instrumentality the king-
dom of Hanover had been severed from us. He mentioned
Hanover for the purpose of showing that this country had always
suffered from the interference of foreign powers with the affairs
of this country. In 1688 we had no rational debt. In 1697
we had a debt of 21,500,0001. In 1714 the debt was 34,000,000/.
In 1736 it was 50,000,0001. In 1748 we had a debt of 78,000,0001.
In 1756, the commencement of the seven years' war, it was
75,000,0004 In 1763 we had a war, and the debt amounted
to 193,000,0001. From 1777 to 1815 it increased to
828,000,000/. In consequence of the war into which we were
drawn by our connexion with Hanover, the debt was raised
from 75,000,0001. to 139,000,0001. The national debt had
been created by continental wars and continental interfe-
rence. And was the condition of this country altered since
the period when the debt was created? He contended that
the whole of the condition of England was totally changed.
He had now done. He believed he had touched upon every
part of the subject which was of any importance, and he should
be sorry to be the instrument of unnecessarily protracting this
debate, but he must be permitted to conclude the observations
which he had to make in the same way as other Noble Lords
wbo had taken part in this debate—that was
by calling their Lordships' attention to the great humility of the
state and position of their Lordships' Hou-e under the existing
circumstances of the country. He would say that their Lord-
ships were now placed in a very curious and important position
in reference to this question. It was pet fectly notorious, and
he would repeat it over and over again, that the present Par-
liament was assembled under the Government of the Noble
I Lords opposite, upon a special and particular question. It had
been returned for the purpose of protecting the agricultural
, interests of this country. He for his own part had given his
most hearty support to the Conservative Government, and he
was prepared to vindicate the character of himself, and those
with whom he had acted. It was understood and believed that
no measure would be brought forward by toe present Govern-
• ment which would have for its object the alteration of the
• present system of protection to agriculture. Sir Robert Peel,
on the first of January, 1840, used these words—" Agriculture
is improved since 1834—d0 you take credit for the improve-
r ment? It is owing to your fostering hand, and to the manly
r and decided tone on the corn-laws." Sir Robert Peel said

that when addressing those gentlemen who acted with his
Noble Friend apposite. He said in the same speech—" I did
previously, and I repeat it, that I now consider a liberal pro-
tection to domestic legislature indispensable." Now those
were the speeches which Sir Robert Peel did not contemplate
would be quoted against him in so brief a period. Sir Robert
Peel a few years ago had said that he considered protection
necessary to the preservation of the interests of the country at
large as well as of those engaged in agriculture. That Right
Hon. Gentleman had said, at the commencement of this ses-
sion, that it would not be prudent to appeal to the country
until the great question of Ireland was set at rest—(No, no)—
and he called upon their Lordships to compel the Government
to appeal to the country.—(Cheers). He had no hesitation in
saving that it became the imperative duty of their Lordships'
House to let this question go to the people of England
fir the purpose of deciding whether they were to have
this new system palmed upon the country.—( Hear, hear.)
It became their Lordships' duty to exercise the power which
they possessed for protecting the interests of the poor people of
this country who would be the most affected by the changes
which were proposed to take place. It would be most im-
portant for their Lordships to preserve the good opinion of the
people of this country in their Lordships' House, and that they
should dismiss this measure upon the second reading, for the
purpose of permitting the people of this country to express their
opinion upon it.—( Cheers.) He could assure their Lordships
as an humble individual of that House, that in his opinion, the
only manner in which he could perform his public duty would
be by voting against the second reading:of this Bill.—( The
Noble Lord concluded amid loud cries of " Adjourn," from all
parts of the House.)
Lord BROUG HAM rose to explain—He said, your Lord-
ships will certainly allow me an explanation. lam quite aware
that nothing can be more wearisome to your Lordships than
explanations generally are. I can assure you, however, that
this shall be a short one. Nothing could be more ridiculous
than for me to be ashamed of having changed my opinions,
with reference to the sliding-scale, during a period of 19 years.
I wish just to state that I thought there was something ominous
in my much esteemed Friend, bearing such an authoritative
part, as though he were stalking the quarter deck, and I were
ender his command, or perhaps I must rather say, treating me
as though I were an enemy under his guns.—( Laughter.) But
when the Noble Lord began to read, what was it that he read ?
It was that I was interrupted in what I was going to say, and
that I said nothing.—( Laughter.) I was curious enough to
inquire as to what this interruption arose from, and looked ac-
cordingly in these documents ( Hansard). The debate to which
the Noble Lord referred me, was a debate of the 21st of
Mach, 1827. Alv much-esteemed Friend, Lord Althorp, gave
his support to the proposition of Mr. Canning, and said that
it was a measure which, so far from producing mischi"vous re-
sults, would produce great and lasting benefits to the country,
both as regarded its commerce, its trade, and its agriculture.
He (Lord Althorp) then proceeded to defend the proposed
measure, and considered it as an improvement on the measure
of 1815, and then proceeded to say, that a more
general arrangement upon a higher and more per-
manent footing would be desirable for the nation.
" You must," said he, " see the necessity of placing the corn-
laws upon a more permanent footing." Some persons may
think that Lord Althorn referred at the time to an alteration
in the then existing sliding-scale,hut I happen to know that his
opinion was, that a more enlarged measure was desired ; and
here I must say to your Lordships, that these reports are not so
full and accurate as the reports now are. The nonsense and
ridicule which is here printed, some of it my own, is
scarcely conceivable. In several instances the word
" not " is kept out, and in another case the word "not " is
inserted where it should not be. My Noble Friend Lord
Wilton, on that occasion, rose to express his approbation of
the measure then before the Committee, without considering
it perfect in its then present shape, or that it could be made
better by inserting some amendments in Committee. This is
quite consistent with the present conduct of my Noble Lords
in this House, who might say, We would, in fact, rather not
have the Bill, but we may, perhaps, introduce some amend-
ments in Committee. In reference to this proposition itself,
I differed from some Hon. Gentlemen who had gone
before me. These were agricultural Members. There
were Lord Western, Colonel Wood, Mr. Portman, and
others. Upon that occasion I said—now these are my words:—
" Although I would not now pledge myself to any opinion
either of approval or disapproval, still there was one observation
which I wished to make for the purpose of administering some
slight comfort to those Honourable Gentlemen (ag-
ricultural Members) who had upon all occasions
shown themselves at all times ready to take alarm
at anything which they considered innovation." Then
came the debate of March 9, and the whole of the
argument was in favour of free trade, and I said (continued the
Roble and Learned Lord, reading from Hansard) that what-
ever were my sentiments concerning free trade, I should
confine them to my own bosom, in order to
escape the hostility of those who were opposed
to its principle. Now was that an argument against
the principle of free trade ?—(Hear, hear.) And it was not
until I went farther in my advocacy of the advantages to be
derived from free trade that I was interrupted by the coughing
of which the reporter speaks. It was riot without some diffi-
culties that I afterwards obtained a hearing, and I then ex-
pressed my hearty concurrence in the sliding-scale as a step in
the right direction, and being founded on the principle of com-
mercial reform, for the Government had recently entered then
upon an advocacy of the principles of free trade.—(Hear,
hear.) And now what becomes of the Noble Lord's state-
ment?—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of WICKLOW and Earl GREY rose at the same
time.

The Earl of WICKLOW moved the adjournmeat of the
debate to Thursday next.

Earl GREY moved the simple adjournment of the debate.
A dispute here arose as to the precedency of the motion.
The Earl of WICKLOW said he would persevere in his
motion, and would take the sense of the House upon the point.
Lord BROUGHAM said, I must move an amendment.
The House, on this important matter, ought to sit on Wednes-
day. I will make this proposition, however, that the debate be
concluded on Thursday. What will prevent us from sitting up
till six o'clock in the morning.
The Earl of WICKLOW- said that he did not see anything
to prevent their concluding the debate on Thursday night, or
rather on Friday morning.
Earl GREY said he believed that their practice was first to
move that a debate be adjourned, and thenfrrinto ascegrrteaaint
import-
ance to what
day it was to be adjourned. But considering
the
ance of this debate, and the anxiety with which the
result of it was looked forward to by the country,
he did think it would not be fitting to let the country
have it to say that this House preferred amusement,
and to
and a mere amusement, (for it was nothing m'
the general interests of the country.
Wednesday
had been said, that it
was not usual for the House to sit on ; but let him
remind the House that that was a practice of very late date,
and that in case of an adjourned debate, Wednesday was not
regarded, as in the case of the Maynooth Grant Debate, but to
go on with the discussion de die in diem, until it had determined,
He asked would it be fitting to adjourn this debate for my
amusement ?—( Cries of "Olt, Yes, he would sa
oh. ')
say, it
Was amusement, and nothing more. But if this debate were
to be adjourned to Thursday, and not end on that day, then it
should be adjourned over the Whitsuntide hol da
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE understood. that the
reason his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) had moved the adjourn-
ment, was because he wished to be in the possession of the
House on resuming the debate. He could not see why they
should not meet on Friday, after having attended the divine
service.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said be could Eee no ob-
jection to the House sitting on Wednesday if they wished to
du so; but it had always been the practice of th, Hou-e not
to it on Friday. which was the anniversary of the restoration.
Lord ASHBURTON was anxious to say a few words be-
fore this discussion shou:d close; but he had no objection to its
te:vninating on Thursday.

The Earl of WICKLOW said he had put the motion in the
way he did, because he learned that day that it was the in-
tention of the Noble Earl (Earl Grey) to move that night at
the dose of the debate, that the House do sit on Wednesday.
He ( Lord Wicklow) therefore determined to have pre-
cedence of the Nole Earl, and therefore he thought
it best to make he motion he had done. Having been put in
possession of the Howe, he would not consent to give way to
the Noble Earl, or waive the usual practice of the House unless
they decided according to the suggestion of the Noble Marquis
opposite. Should the motion he carried, he (Lord Wicklow)
would claim his right to open the debate on Thursday.
The Duke of RICHMOND said, perhaps the Noble Earl
would go cn now, and his Noble Friend could open the debate
od Thursday evening.
Earl GREY would give precedence now to the Noble Earl,
and open the debate then.—( Laughter. )
Lord BROUGHAM hoped, if they adjourned till Thursday,
they would endeavour to finish the debae that night.
But as that might prove fallacious, he would intimate, in
order that it might he perfectly understood, that should the
debate not be brought to a close he should move the adjourn-
ment till the day after. That would require them to attend
church. But he could not see what harm attending the sermon
could do them, and theie was no reason why Noble Lords
should have any abjection on that account.
Lord CAMPBELL said it appeared that the present dis-
pute was a struggle between 'wo parties, which could only be
determined by the majority of the Peers; and as the settle-
ment of precedence might be attended by some difficulty, he
would, in order to get rid of it, move that the Noble Lord,
Earl Grey, be now heard.—(Loud cheers.)
The Earl of WICKLOW rose in a very excited state, and
with violent gesticulation protested against the course now
taken. He was proceeding to address the House when, from
the cries of " Order, order," and noise that prevailed, he was
obliged to sit down.
The LORD CHANCELLOR put Lord Campbell's amend-
ment, which was agreed to.
Earl GREY then, amidst considerable laughter and cheers,
moved that the debate be adjourned.
The Earl of WICKLOW—UntiI Thursday next.
The motion, with the addition of Lord Wicklow, was then
put and agreed to, and the House adjourned at Two o'Clock
till Thursday next.

HOUSE OF COMMOIVS, May 26.
The SPEAKER. took the Chair at Four o'clock.
MORAYSHIRE RAILWAY_

The report on this Bill was brought up and agreed to, and
the Bill ordered to be engrossed.
GREAT NORTH OF SCOTLAND RAILWAY.

The report on this Bill, including the Eastern Extension,
was brought up and agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be
engrossed.
EDINBURGH AND NORTHERN RAILWAY.

The report on this Bill (Branches from the Dundee and
Arbroath Railway and Tay Ferry Improvement) was brought
up, and the Bill ordered to be engrossed.
NORTH KENT RAILWAY.

Mr. RICE, on the further consideration of the report of
the South Eastern Railway (Greenwich Railway to' Chilhain,
near Canterbury with branches, No. 2,) Bill, moved that the
Bill, together with the North Kent Railway Bill, be re-com-
mitted to the full Committee as originally constructed. The
North Kent Railway had been condemned before its merits
had bean thoroughly investigated by the Committee ; and the
South Eastern Company, which was the only company that
could properly carry out the line, would be perfectly justified,
under the present circumstances, in studying their own in-
terests in preference to the convenience of the public, by not
carrying out the contemplated extension of their line.
Mr. PROT H EROE defended the decision of the Committee,
of which he was chairman, on the North Kent Railway. As
chairman, he had felt it his painful duty to give a casting vote
against the further progress of the Bill, as it contemplated the
construction of a railwa" through part of Greenwich Park.
Upon this instance, as upon many others, he found the benefit
of the reports of the Board of Trade ; and the Committee
considered that the South-Eastern line was far preferable to
the North Kent. The Committee had been sitting from the
middle of March to the middle of May, and they had given
the whole scheme their utmost attention ; and he deprecated
the investigation of such subjects in the House, as it would
tend very much to weaken the authority of the Committee.
Mr. BAILLIE supported the motion. The Committee
had paesed a Bill which gave power to the Admiralty to stop
the progress of the railway at whatever point they chose. He
did not know what the shareholders would say to such a Bill.

Sir ROBERT INGLIS said he was aware of the inconve-
nience which would arise from a scrut•ny of the decisions of
Committees, but unless it could be proved that Committedt
were immaculate, he considered that the House was the last
tribunal of appeal. He believed that a disturbance sufficient
to destroy the accuracy of an astronomical observation would
be produced by the passim, of railway trains. He thought the
Bill, if recommitted, should be referred to another Committee.
He grounded his objections against the Bill, not because it
did not afford a direct communication to the coast, but the in-
jury it would cause to science in passing so close to the Obser-
vatory.
Sir JOHN RAE REID presented a petition from Dover,
signed by the mayor and burgesses, in favour of the line.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said that an application had
been made by the North Kent Railway Company to the Admi-
ralty to ascertain whether they had any objection to the railway
passing through the park. Vast powers had been given to
the Admiralty to regulate the trains, or to step
them altogether. The Admiralty had no objection to allow
the line to pass through Greenwich Park, provided the interests
and the observations of the Observatory were not affected.
The Company had assented to make such regulations as would
prevent this mischief, and the Admiralty had accordingly with-
drawn their opposition.

Mr. T. DeRCOMBE—The fact was that this matter had
passed through the Committee by a very small majority, consist-
ing in fact of himself, who it was well known was able to act in a
double capacity, and it was on the faith of his statement that
this decision had been come to.—(Laughter.) The Hon.
Gentleman it appeared had a very great taste for the pic-
turesque, and had accordingly proposed the carrying of this
line through Greenwich Park. He had accordingly gone
down to survey the line himself, and had no doubt
dined there—(Laughter)—with all the appliances of
a gentlemanly entertainment. (Continued laughter.)
On his return he had waited upon the Admiralty to give the
results of his observations, and it was upon his representation,
and he might say, that of the South Eastern Company,
that the Honourable and Gallant Admiral's report was
founded. The truth was, that the South Eastern Company
were at the bottom of this decision of the Admiralty;
for they were themselves desirous of making this line. Now,
it should be observed that Professor Airy had not been called
before the Committee at all, but he had expressed his
opinion that in the experiments he had made the
transit of the trains would in no way affect the observa-
tions of the Observatory. The North Kent Company had
employed Professor Robinson and another gentleman to make
experiments, and they had given it in as their decided opinion
that no public inconvenience would ensue. The North Kent
Company, therefore, had decided upon running their trains
through the park by means of a tunnel.
Lord EMLYN was a member of the Committee, and he
had arrived at his decision on public grounds solely. He could
not see any reason why the Bill should be committed again.
They had not refused to hear any evidence, nor had any alle-
gation been made that such was the case. In fine, he con-
sidered a recommitment of the Bill would not lead to any
public good, and he would, in consequence, obj.-ct to it.
Mr. HUME considered that the members of the Committee
had not acted wisely or properly in their conduct, and he would
therefore vote for the motion.

Mr. PLUMPTRE said that the Astronomer Royal had satis
fled himself that no injury would result to the Observatory if
the line were constructed, and at any rate the South-Eastern
Company had Receded to the conditions required from them,
being satisfied that the danger apprehended would not arise.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET moved that the debate
he adjourned fur a fortnight, in order that the Admiralty might
have further time to consider.

Mr. C. Wt ;0 fl seconded the motion.
Mr. J. 0 CONNELL protested aeainst some observations
that had been made in consequence o: the Hon. Chairman
having cormilted the Admiralty on the subject. He did so at
the especial request of the Committee.
Mr. JERVIS did not object to the adjournment of the debate.
This matter ought not unquestionably to be left open be-
tween the North Kent and Soufh-Eastern. The whole matter,
including the North Kent Bill, should be again remitted to the
Committee, in order that the discrepancy complained of might
be explained and got rid of. _

After a short discussion the further consideration of the
subject was deferred for a fortnight.
NORTH KENT RAILWAY.

Mr. REID presented a petition from Dover, in favour o 1
this Bill.

Several Reports of Railway Committees were brought up.

CALEDONIAN INSURANCE COMPANY.
This Bill was read a third time and tia.sed.
BRISTOL WATER WORKS.

This Bill was also read a third time and passed.
Mr. H. BERKELEY moved that the petition of George
Whieldon, Esq., be referred to the Committee to whom the
London and Birmingham Railway (Coventry to Nuneaton)
Bill stands referred, and that the petitioner be heard by his
counsel, agents, and witnesses, notwithstanding his petition was
not presented three clear days before the day appointed for
the first meeting o' the Committee.
EAST AND WEST YORKSHIRE JUNCTION RAIL-