The Sun.
London, England, 1846-01-30 00:00:00

The people of France had also followed their example; for
though they had objected at first, a law had been framed for
the regulations of factories, which was a transcript of their
own. Russia had also followed the same example. `The peo-
ple of Russia, from an estimate of the moral and physical ad-
vantages such a regulation would produce, had seen the pro-.
priety of adopting a measure of this kind. The experience of
the success of the principle had operated in this manner on
these countries, and not only these countries, but every other
country he was persuaded, would be compelled to carry it out.
He would now pass on from this review of the results, to the
general consideration of the influence of factory regulations on
the physical, moral, and financial condition of the manufactur-
ing population of this country. He requested the attention
of the House while he referred to several productions which
were made in 1833, when he first undertook the introduction
of what was called the Ten tours' Bill. There were four pre-
dictions continually rung in the ears of the House, and were
the arguments continually employed by the opponents
of the Bill to defeat this measure. The first prediction
was, that if the Bill passed the cotton trade would be destroyed—
that an end would be put to the great staple branch of national
industry. The second prediction was, that the wages of the
operatives would be diminished. The third prediction was,
that the wages of the children would be reduced, so that they
would receive only afractional payment for their labour. And the
fourth prediction was, that the number (f children employed
would be di minished,and that great physical suffering would ensue.
He would now come to the results of those predictions. And
first, he would take the effect f the limitation of wages occa-
sioned by the reduction of the hours of labour, and he would,
in the first place, appeal to the year 1831, when the first Act
was passed for reducing those hours ; and then would, in the
second place, bring forward the period after labour was pro-
tected, and show that the wages had not been diminished.
In the year 1831 the first Bill had been passed for the limitation
of those who were called young persons. Those were persons
between the ages of fourteen and eighteen years. In 1831 an
Act had been passed ehich limited the labour of those )oung
persons to twelve hours in the day; asel it was asserted that
the effect of this measure would be to reduce the wages of those
int.4;viduals. Now, how far was that assertion, that protection
would in.,"re wages,
founded in truth ? In 1833, before this
protection was suraated,
the wages of those Indio duals had, on
an average, been ss. 4d.
per week, while, after that protection
was granted, the average :ate of wages was 6s. I Id. per week,
showing not less a rise than upw:.'isof this ty per cent. These
facts were drawn from returns made fri2."l the four great manu-
facturing towns of Bolton, Preston, Oldham, and Manchester.
Now, in the third place, with reference to the wag7' of those
distinguished as children. Before 1833 the ave. 7"
rate of wages of these children was 3s. Id. per week.
Before the Bill which limited the work of children under
thirteen years of age, the time of these children
was eight hours. By that Bill the time was reduced to six
hours, and although the average rate of wages was reduced to
2s. 2d., yet it was rather an apparent than a real diminution,
for though there was an abatement, yet it was not at all equiva-
lent to the relief, and the families were in fact far better off than
before, for a great demand for children had been created, and
where only one child was employed before, two were now re-
quired. Now he would allude to the fourth prediction. In
order to do so it would be necessary for him to enter into some
minute details, but he hoped the House would pardon his so
doing, on the ground that they were essential for the purposes
he had in view. The next point raised was that children would
suffer physically. He begged them to see hew far that predic-
tion had been verified. It was extremely difficult to obtain a
return of the number of children under 13 years of age, em-
ployed in 1833, but those who knew were aware that very few
had received any education at all. Now he would assert that
there were under 13 years of age, working six hours a day, and
receiving three hours education each day, no less than 30,000
children.—( Hear, hear.) Before the year 1833 there
were scarcely any children receiving education. The
increase of children attending school since 1833 was at
the rate of 8 to I.—( Hear.) On the other hand, the increase
of children attending school, above 13 years of age, who were
kept at work during the full period was alwaest nothing. He
would now call attention to the opinions expressed by the
Committee of Operative Spinners—a body which had been
opposed to the introduction of the law which limited children to
half time, because it pressed heavily upon them. He would be
glad to give them the opinion of those who had been opposed
to the half time system. For every year their condition was
much improving, but particularly since 1844. Now, mark
this—for several years the labour of these children had de-
creased to some extent, and during that period a great im-
provement had taken place in their moral and physical
condition ; to such an extent, indeed, that he did not despair
but before long they would occupy positions fit for human
beings.—( Hear, hear.) The hand doom weavers now declare
that so great is the benefit resulting to them
and their children, by working for a limited period, that
before they stsould work longer they would part with their last
shilling. Now, he heard this statement with great satisfaction,
and he believed he might appeal to the Hon. Gentleman op-
posite, the Member for Durham (Mr. Bright), as to the vast
improvements that would take place by the shortening of the
hours of labour.—(Hear,) The great benefit that had been
felt by them on getting their holidays, and the renewed energy
with which they returned to their labour after such ho'idays,
was, he considered another proof of the benefit of shortening
the hours of labour. He would say that there was something
very cruel in taking children from their parents at a tender
age, and exacting from them labour, such as the most grown
could hardly support or enderisooss( Hear, hear.) These
children are engaged during the whole period of twelve
hours out of the twenty-four, a period during which adults in
vigorous health carry on their labour. Well, now observe
what an effect this produces on the community. That it is a
mattes' of vital importance to the peace and welfare of this
country that women should be brought up wiih some know-
ledge of domestic .ftrrangernents, so as to enable them to dis-
charge their duties, has ever been an admitted (set. Yet,
bow was it possible that they Could learn those duties when
they returned home in a state of exhaustion? How was it
possible, he would ask them, that they could learn any of the
necessary details in which consist the comforts of the working
man's home ? It is another admitted fact by lawyers, commis-
sioners, and statesmen, that on the condition of the women in
the manufacturing towns depends the social welfare and IMO-
nest of the men. A friend of his residing in the neighbour-
hood of several large factories, and who erected two night
schools for the purposes of giving some instruction in residing,
writing, and needle-work, informed him that the anxiety evinced
by these poor people to receive instruction was very great.
These schools were opened twice a-week, and on the first night
of their opening forty young men and thirty-eight young
women entered immediately. So great was the fatigue under-
gone during the day that although they okerved an earnest
desire to receive instruction their physicalowers would not
endure it. Four or five used to be found asleep at a time, and
at length, after the space of a few months, the classes were
deserted by all but five. They were stoked the cause of this
desertion, and they answered that they could not spend their
evenings at school as they had to be up at five o'clock in the
morning, and that owing to their short rest at night they
found it Almost impossible to keep awake, Thus the school
that was opened for their benefit was compelled to he shut up,
although they were eager to attend it. There wags in another
country, an establishment where a different state of things
existed—where twelve hours of labour was considered to be
sufficient for health and moral improvement. The law he
referred to was a law at Lowell, in the United
States. He would begin by assuming that the hours
of labour in both countries were the same, that
was to say twelve hours a day. Dr. Bartlett, who
wrote a book called " The Institutions of Lowell,"
said that a statute existed, by which no person under fifteen
years of age was allowed to work more than nine months out
of the year.—(Hear, hear.) The other three months were to
be passed at school. That law was enforced with unflinching
strictness, so that in time of scarcity no infraction of it is ever
heard of or allowed. He (Dr .Bartlett) had stated that he never
knew an instance of any person under fifteen years of age
working more than nine months out of the year. What was
the case in the English factories? Why children who had at-
tained the age of 13 years were admitted to twelve hours' work for
the whole year. They do not begin at such an early age as
they do in England. Out of 2,000 gtrls employed at Lowell,
who had been indiscriminately examined, the average age was
twenty-three years. In one mill, of 657 girls employed in it,
the average age was 22.12 years. The average time these had
been employed was 34 years, making them about nineteen
years of age when they entered the factory. Thus,
while nineteen years of age was the average age of girls
entering factories in Lowell to work twelve hours a day, in
England the age was thirteen at which children were called on
to work twelve hours a day.—( Hear.) In another mill in
Lowell the average age of the girls employed was twenty-three
years, and they had been engaged in the factory for four years,
making the age of entry, as in the other case, nineteen years.
The peculiar characteristics of Lowell had been shown in an
authentic work, lately published in America, by the Hon.
Henry A. Miles. who had written the work at the solicitation
of the proprietors of Lowell, who had furnished the writer every
statistical information. The writer in the work in question
pointed out the great distinction between the people of Lowell
and the factory operatives of this country. Mr. Miles says—
" There is no permanent factory population. This is the wide
gulph which separates the English manufacturing towns from
Lowell. In the latter place only, a few of the operatives have
their home; the great proportion came from distant parts of
the country, the girls being principally the daughters of far-.
mere." Mr. Miles further states, that, on an average, the girls
do not work more than four and a half years at the factory ;
they return home, and their places are taken by new corners.
Look at the operatives in this country; they spend their whole
lives in the factories ; but in Lowell the average was only roars
and- a-half years, after which they gave up a factory occupation.
The labourers resident in this country were all their lives de-
voted to this business, and constituted a permanent caste.
Their labour was continued from year to year, and how was it,
he asks. that. the English visitor found it so difficult to under-
stand the difference between the manufacturing population of
Ames ica and their own. How is it that there is such a differ•
ence between the population of Lowell and that of Leeds or
Manchester. Why, indeed, should there be—why, indeed?
Yet there is. Because the class of females in Lowell are of a
very different order to those of the same class in Manchester.
Now, he would look at the statistical return of the female
operatives in Lowell, and see what a differeree there was between
the places he had named, Out of the 6.320 female operatives
of the former place he found that no less than 350 of them had
been teachers in public schools, and in addition to that there
was also the fact that the women of that place were only accus-
tomed to factory labour about four and a half years of their
lives, and that a great portion of them were married women
In the town of Lowell. Yet he tound that there was the same
predominance of female labour in Lowell that there was in
either of the two manufacturing towns in England which he
had natted, arid after that fact was stated he thought that
some other cause must be looked for than the
cern-laws for the misery and wretchedness which
harrassed the manufacturing population. The total popu-
lation of 'Lowell was 300 00, and of the whole the manufac-
turing population was 10,000, and of those 10,000 2,915 were
men, while there were 6,320 women. It should be remem-
bered that, in America, there is nothing like commercial re-
striction. Trade is completely free and unfettered. There is
nothing to prevent the master from doing whatever seems to
him right, and yet we have the same complaint in Lowell
that there is Manchester—the same complaint of excesoit
labour, premature decay, sinking health, and early graves
He would next quote from a public document which had been
presented to the House of Representatives of the State of
Massachusetts in 1845, and see what course was taken there.
It was a petition, signed by 0,131 persons, and it complained
of the excessive duration of labour ; and it should be remem-
bered, that the parties who signed that petition were in the
prime of life, who only began their work at nineteen years of
age, and continued their labour for an average period of four
and a half years, at the rate of ten hours a day. The peti-
tioners went on to say that they were confined from thirteen
to fourteen hours per day in unhealthy apartments, and were
thereby hastening, through
pais, disease, and privation, down
to a premature grave. If there was any
truth—if there was
any force in that statement—how much more must
be the statement of the English operatives, who
commenced their toil at eight years of age, in
close and unhealthy towns, continued their labour to the
latest hour that their physical energies could support them.
( Hear, hear.) What opinion, he would ask, did the Special
Committee, to whose consideration that petition was referred,
come to? They said, we think that many irnproYelnents ntay
be made in various ways, and we are of opinion it would be
far better if the hours of labour were less, if more time was
allowed for meals, and if more attention was paid to ventilation
and pure air." The Committee proceeded to comment with
very great severity, and in marry eases unfairness, on the stateof
English factories and the peopte engages' ha them, and stated
that they acknowledged the claims of the petitioners, 14 that
1904 was not v4th them. They farther ventured to Pi?

tertain a hope that the hours of labour would be materially de-
creased, and they stated that they looked for such alteration in
the progressive improvement in arts and sciences—in a higher
appreciation of man's final destiny—in a less love for money,
and in a more ardent love for intellectual attainment.—
( Hear, hear.) Such was the report of the Special Commit-
tee. That Committee had passed an opinion, which he (the
Noble Lord) considered was applicable in almost every
respect to 'the case he had brought before the House. It
would, he maintained, be well for all parties if this
long-agitated question could be finally settled in a satisfactory
manner.—( Hear, hear.) If the House would not give the
operative manufacturers all they wanted, he hoped it would
accede a portion at least, and let the success or failure deter-
mine whether the remainder should be conceded.—( Hear,
hear.) Nothing could be easier than to repeal a law, if the ef-
fects were found to be prejudicial. If the law was not bene-
ficial, the operatives would be the first to exclaim against it, and
agitate its repeal. Without some such management as that
which he had proposed, he was quite sure that the entire mass
of the manufacturing classes would never desist from their ef-
forts. He assured the House the manufacturing operatives of
England only gathered strength from each di,appointment.
He never knew them more unshaken in their determination, or
more courageous than at the present time, when they were ask-
ing the House to concede to their just and their reasonable de-
mand. They were fortified in their res,4ve by the cotempora-
neous efforts of other classes, who, by perseverance and unity
of purpose, had always been successful in obtaining the conces-
sion of equitable demands. They were also en,ouraged by
the fact that wherever they presented their claims to the
notice of the House, they had been treated with kindnesa, and
listened to with considerable attention. He forebore from
bringing before the House a quantity of evidence contained in
speeches and reports, all tending to prove the hardships and phy-
sical privations which the operative portion of the community
endured. He was aware that, in consequence of the non-pro-
duction of such eviden .e, he laboured under considerable disad-
vantage, but he was actuated in the course he had pursued, from
a desire not to trespass too long on the attention
of the House. He had also omitted various statements, tending
to show that there would be no abatement of wages in conse-
quence of the diminished hours of labour, but that if there
should be, it would be more than compensated for by a system
of judicious economy. He did think that certain hours should
be set apart for the education of the children. It was not
only necessary that they should give time to the children to
learn, but that they should give them time to study what they
had learned. They give, by their present system of educa-
tion, a certain amount of teaching to children under thirteen
years of age, but fern des, who constitute so large a portion of
:-he manufacturing population, and who were so important a
portion
constant a'fbstrae . society, were in a great measure unsexed by their
ion from domestic duties, which they alone are
best able and best fiti,7l b 5 nature to discharge.--( Hear.)
Sir, we did not stir up the feelings of the people as we might
have done, on this meaiure.—( Hear, hear.) They did no
such thing ; and he would say, to the honour of the working
classes, that they never indulged in Vindictive expressions
against any measures of that House.—( Hear, hear.) It will
be a fatal night when you shall throw out thi Bill, for you
will thereby shut out all hope of improvement, either social
or moral, from a vast body of people. He did ask of
them, though he should never again raise his voice in that
House, that they would be careful, lest in throwing out that
Bill, they might not widen that breach, which was already a
deep and }awning gulf, which already separated the rich from
the p ior. The differences in the different grades of society
—he would rather say classes—was very broady laid down,
The numberless luxuries of mind and sense were enjoyed pro.
portionally by almost all classes, while the poor and over-toiled
operatives were the only ones excluded from the common en-
joyment. The contrast is seen and felt, and is resented. The
repetition of these things would be useless. He had before
subjected them to their notice, and though he had but little
hope of succeeding, from the influence which would be exerted
against himyte would never desist from raising his voice for
the protection of the overtoiled operatives. For the last two
or three years he had accumulated such an amount of odium,
that he feared there was such a feeling against him, as left him
little hope for a successful termination of his endeavours in the
present session. He, however, trusted to the judgment of the
House to give the subject their most careful consideration.
Should he be defeated now, he would however go on, never
abating one inch till he gained that happy result, which he felt
so important a question demanded from the Legislature.
Should this country wish to keep up her power, the cause of
the poorer classes should not be neglected. . .

The SPEAKER having put the question—That leave be
given to bring in the Bill ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, he would inform the Noble
Lord that, on the part of the Government, he was not about
to offer any opposition for leave to bring in the present Bill.
The Noble Lord bad on this occasion discharged his duties
most ably and impartially. He (Sir James Graham) was,
however, of opinion that the Act of 1844 had gone far towards
settling the many difficulties between the employers and the
employed. The Noble Lord had stated many instances of
manufacturers who had made experiments on the short hour
system, and the results which he read to the House were favour-
able. Since the year 1833, some of the children had their
work limited to six hours, and the labour of females was in
some cases limited to twelve hours, Any person from thirteen
to eighteen years of age was restricted from working more
than twelve hours at any time. The result of their legislation
had been, that the manufactures of cotton, wool, silk, and flax
had been affected by it, and that no man would be allowed to
work in any mill for more than 12 hours. He must say that the
limitation of labour was a very dangerous experiment in a
country, which depended a good deal on its manufactures.
The Noble Lord had adverted to the state of the law in other
countries. He (Sir J. Graham) was sure that the Noble
Lord knew that it mattered little what the state of the law was
in other countries. And what was the state of the Statute-book
at Lowell ?—as, before any reliance could be placed On the ex-
ample set of a foreign country, it was necessary to understand the
circumstances under which that example was set. It was not
enough to see the law, but the circumstances under which it
was framed. The Noble Lord had brought on this question
eight or nine t Ines before, but had never moved it under the
Present form, The Noble Lord, as he had said, represented a
great portion of the manufacturing community, and had ad-
verted to the magnitude of the question as affecting their inte-
rests. He ( Sir J. Graham) did think that, while it was the
duty of the litinsp to consider the hopes and expectations of
the working classes wish reference to this question, it was
also their duty to consider the real interests and welfare of those
classes whose interests and whose welfare mould be so deeply
affected by this measure. With reference to the general in-
dustry of the country this question was of paramount import-
ance ; but as his Right Hon. Friend ( sir R. Reel) had made
a statement to the House of the intention of the Government
to remove restrictions on several articles that entered largely
into the consumption of all classes, he thought it would
be expedient to postpone the decision pf the House, as
the question introduced by the Noble Lord till
the tense of the House woe taken en the proposition brought
forward by his Right Hon. Friend respecting the supplying of
corn, and the law which regulates it. Respecting the particu-
lar question under discussion, he
twaatt w
was howeveriss Impolitic bound
ftuoritnhfeorrtmo
the House, that nothing he had heard on the subject could
ni (
o n 1 h 4
factory labour. Certainly no
argument
had used in introducing his proposi-
tion, could s
pporrthe Bill ; still considering the
withutchee himregulation
eL o or
importancec i
interferea
ge
h thei
n Nob unalterable
l i
of the measures proposed by his Right Hon. Friend
Sir R. Peel, while he (Sir J. Graham) thought the opinion of
the House should be postponed, he had no objection under pre-
sent to
c i
nmc
es tranneede, pdi
14in and considering the great and growing in-
terests ,11
order that the Bill might be fully ea-
recou
amined, to allow the motion of the Noble Lord. On these
grounds he consented to the introduction of the Bill,
Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND cordially supported the
Noble Lord. He recollected sixteen years ago, when the
venerable Member of the West Riding of Yorkshire introduced
the question. that it was then predicted great injury would ensue
tob by
seean lyieugltirareroen neewith factory labour. He had however lived
tried on the question, the hours of labour of
children seduced from 15 or 10 hours a day, to 8 hours, and
afterwards to 6 hours, and yet the ruin predisted harlot occurred.
He thought the measures which had been adopted had been of
essential service to the country, and he thought that if another
step were taken in legislation, that a great benefit would be ob-
tamed for the community. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to
think that this was the wrong time to take this step. He must
beg to say that he took a different view of the matter, for they
were going to accomplish another great measure, and this was,
therefore, one of the most convenient seasons of all. They
were going to repeal the corn-laws. He had always been an
advocate for the repeal of the corn-laws, because he believed
that that repeal would conduce largely to the prosperity of com-
merce and manufactures. if it did do so, it would contribute
also to the demand for labour; labour would be required, and
for that very reason this was precisely the opportunity for
legislating on this great subject. But perhaps the Noble Lord
would be content at the present time to take a modification of
his measure, and if he could not obtain a ten hours' Bill, he
would be satisfied with eleven hours. There never was a time
when there was a better understanding between the manufac-
turers, and the men than at the present moment, and he thought
the operatives would be ready to meet the masters in a com-
promise on the point of time. He could not sit down without
expressing his admiration of the conduct of some of the leading
manufacturers. He knew some who had tried this great ex-
periment of a reduction of the hours of labour, and they had
found that it was invariably attended with advantage.
Mr. TRF.LAWNEY rose and said, the Noble Lord ought
to be she last person in society to attack the rights of property.
He ( Mr. Trelawnev ) thought that wages would come down
if the hours of labour were diminished, and that the Noble
Lord ( Ashley) was more likely to do harm than good by his
plan. He would not then make any other observation.
Lord ,ft, TIN MANNERS said he heard with the greatest
pleasure ttitno obstruction would be given to the measure of
his Noble Friend (Lord Ashley), although the corn-laws were
to be repealed. He thought the arguments of the Noble Lord
were good, and that various and sufficient proofs were given.
lie would be curious to know how her Majesty's Ministers
would oppose the measure of his Noble Friend (Lord Ashley)
after they had carried the repeal of the corn-laws. He was
cor thev operatives so much as the measure now proposed by his
incest that they could do nothing to conciliate the feelings
Noble Friend.—(Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he would say,
that he would give the most determined support to the Bill of
his Noble Friend.
Mr. HUME observed that he had always been accustomed
to believe that the time and labour of the artisan was his
capita!, and that any interference to stop or prevent him
from exercising it as he pleased would be a great hardship
and piece of tranny. Now, about twenty-three years ago,
no three men could meet to talk over their affairs, or say they
were hard worked, or seek for an additional shilling, with-
out being liable to be indicted for a conspiracy. He had
known instances where men were transported for going, in a
quiet and peaceable way, and demanding an increase of wages.
Well. Parliament swept away all these laws, and it was made
lawful for every labourer to meet with any number to talk over
their station, and to arrange how many hours they should
please to work. He happened to be at Macclesfield when the
Bill for repealing the short time came into operation, and he
remembered that the greatest misery prevailed there from a
turn-out for an increase of wages. He wished that his Noble
Friend would withdraw his Bill, ter if this principle were car-
ried out it would actually, instead of doing good, bring
great misery upon the class whom the Noble Lord
sought to relieve. He knew petitions had been presented, and
that petitions had been signed ; but when the proper time had
arrived for discussing this case, ho was perfectly convinced that
all the arguments adduced by the Noble Lord would be
answered to the conviction of every Member. There was one
part of the Noble Lord's speech with which he was quite pre-
pared to go, and that was the erection of schools, to which
the children would be compelled to go in order that tt ey
might acquire those principles which might be of use to them
in after life—those principles which w mid preserve them from
crime. The measure would, in his opinion, be an unjust inter-
ference with the rights of capital and property. He regretted
the condition of the working classes, but he was of opinion
that the measure would deteriorate instead of im-
prove their condition. Besides, its adoption would
materially injure the manufactures. But the Noble Lord
should bear in thiod that the agricultural classes were in a more
wretched condition than any qthey portion of the community ;
and if the condition of these people was se lamentable, they
show!:! adopt a ttieastjre which would benefit all alike. The
cry, •' Let industry be free," was now beard throughout the
country ; but the Noble Lord wanted to shackle industry, and
to prevent the employer and employed to make their own terms
as to the number of hours he aliqeld work, and the wages he
should =vim But coercion—and the measure was, In his opi-
nion, a coercive one—would prevent the manufacturers from
taking steps to alleviate the condition of the persons in their
employ ; for which purpose the combinatiOn laws were swept
;way, gig time §rqupds he opposed the introduction Ole Bill.

Mr. ESCOTT said, as there would be a discussion on the
second reading of the Bill, he should take that opportunity of
expressing his opinions at length respecting it; but he wished
to call the attention of the House to one remark of the Noble
Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire. The Noble . Lord Yad
stated, in reference to a former decision of the House, tba• it
was n it a decision of the House of Commons, but a decil/4iiiii of
her Majesty's Ministers. This appeared to him a new doctrine
in that House. When the House of Commons, after a long debate,
rejected the measure on division, and because it was unpalatable,
to turn round and say it was not a decision of the House, but
of her Majesty's Ministers, was most improper. He had voted
against him, and should continue to do do so, and repeated tha
that was not the way to treat the House of Commons. Theret
were persons in the country interested in this question who did
not say it was rejected by her Majesty's Ministers, but that
the Noble Lord gave up the measure.—(Hear. 1 Now one
word upon the principle of the Noble Lord's measure. He said
it was necessary to have some laws to regulate the terms be-
tween the employers and the employed. If that was the ease,
why did not the Noble Lord introduce such a measure?—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord quotes from the blue book in
support of his principles, but he never quoted that authority
fully. There would be found in that book many cases which
would tell against the principles and arguments of the Noble
Lord. He would never agree that such a measure should become
a law. Such a measure as the one proposed by his Noble
Friend, would have the effecs of interfering with the interests of
the able xorkman. He was of opinion that there had been
much injury done to the able-bodied labourers by the mistaken
philanthropy of the Noble Lord.
Mr. COLQUHOUN thought it was most unfair towards his
his Noble Friend to say that he had not quoted the blue book
fully. If he were to do so, the House would be treated to
something like the American speeches, where the speaker at
times occupies the floor for a week.—( Laughter.) Now, his
Noble Friend had maintained those principles for years ; he
never arrived at a conclusion without having first weighed the
cause which led him to it. Now, because these were the prin-
ciples which the Hon. Member for Montrose ( Mr. Hume) held
in 1833, he still continued to assert that the opinions were de-
lusions, which would very soon be dispelled; why, what
would the Hon. Member say to any one who held such
opinions with respect to trade? He would have looked upon
them as too ridiculous, and a motion to that effect the Hon.
Member would have laughed out of the house.—( Hear. )
What was the case ? they, as practical men of business, were,
after thirteen years of experience, come to the consideration
of a practical subject. In 1833 he had voted with the Hon.
Member for Montrose against his Noble Frier d. During the pe-
riod which had elapsed since their manufactures and commerce
had received a great impulse, and in the course of that time
it was a matter of notoriety that, where there had been a re-
duction in the hours of labour, wages had not been diminished,
but they had in many instances been increased. When he
saw, then, that not only was there no injury done to either
commerce or manufactures, he felt bound to act with the
utmost cordiality with his Hon. Friend ; and when especially
he saw that in this case the impulse of policy and the claims of
humanity coincided, he saw no reason for resisting the motion
of the Noble Lord. Look to Ireland—why was it there were
no manufactures of importance in Ireland, but because the
population were in such a state of moral depravation, and if
they were to have England in the same state of social disorder,
where, he would ask, would be their manufactures a few years
hence; and for these reasons he would ask, them to vote for
the resolution.

Mr, ROEBUCK said that he had voted for the previous
Bills because the objects of those Bills were unable to defend
themselves, but such was not the case with those for whom
the Noble Lord was interested ; they were in an altogether diffe-
rent po‘ition, for they were able to defend themselves.
He would put the question in every possible light, that the price
of labour depends entirely upon the demand for the supply of
labour, and no Legislative interference will raise the supply of
labour. The taking away of Legislative restrictions did, in•
deed, raise the price of labour.--(Hear, hear.) We have seen
within the last few years a great increase in the demand for
labour ; at present, comparatively, there was no labourer unem-
ployed. In proportion as the demand from the outside increased
the manufacturer was enabled to build manufactories, to erect
machines, and to furnish work for the labourer. The only way
of benefiting the labourer Is to give full, free, and complete
development to the resources of labour. No Legislative attempt
at regulating labour will ever succeed ; but let it be left to itself
and it will prosper. He was not inclined to place any confi-
dence in the statements of person; about improving the condi-
tion of the labourer by the power of Parliament. Any inter-
ference with labour was unnecessary. Leave it alone, and it will
find its own level. A great deal bad been said about humanity,
of shortening the working hours of the labourer. The regu?
lation for humanity would be easily gained. In fact, there
was no sort of regulation that would be more easily obtained
than that of humanity It was obtained without any personal
sacrifices, and without the exertion of any one of the pardinal
virtues.—( Laughter.) He would undertake to gain a reputa-
tion similar to that which the Noble Lord had obtained in a
very short time. This legislative sort of humanity was a farce
—a mere pretence. —( Hear.) When, however, it came to
touch their pockets, people were not willing to come forward
and plead the cause of labour. To pretend to be the labourees
friend, under the pretence of a few printed words, was hypocri,
tical as well as useless. _ _

Mr. WODE HOUSE would support the Bill, on the grounds
that some regulation as regarded the hours cif labour in the ma-
nufacturing
districts was necessary,
Mr. P. HOWARD thought that a further legi'lative inters
ference at prelent with the hours of labour, would not be Os
tended with any benefit to the class whose ewe the Noble
Lord had advoeated. If the Ten Hours' Bill were to be put in
force at all, he thought it would be better to be put in force by
the manufacturers themselves, and not by an Apt of the le-
gislature. In agriculture it would be iliffiMilt, and in harvest
time impossible to limit the hours of labour i and reasoning by
parity op manufacturing affairs, where any revertant husineris
pressed far immediate execution, to shorten the time of labour
would be attended with great inconvenience. He should pros
test against the Bill being carried a further stage.
Mr, JOHN O'CONNELL, who was nearly inaudible in
the gallery, was understood to say ha should supp ,rt the Bill.
Mr. BRIGHT said, that in the course of the observations
which have fallen from the Noble Lord, he had (Tooted from a
report, and complained that the report had stated the condition
of the manufacturing population with great unfairness. Now,
if the. Committee who had drawn up that report
.had compiled
their information from the speeches which the Noble Lord
had made on several occasions, he would with reason have had
some grounds to complain of the unfairness of the stateniects
contained to the report, as respected the labouring population
of the country, There was no doubt that all were desirous
that the labouring population should, if possible, work less than
they do at present, and that they should possess in abundance
the comforts of life, but he thought that leg:station would altos
gether fail in bringing about the state of affairs that was de- I
sired, by any measure of a similar nature to that lopfees the
1-104 p, fie had listened attentively '0 the NObie Lord, but be
had not learned fiom him, that when Mr. Gardner had reduced
the hours of his workmen, that any material ben fit had re.
suited, Air. Gardner bad partially succeeded in the experi.
merit, by diminishing the tirae allowed for breakfast, dinner,
and tea, chick, added to an increased exertion on the part of
his workpeople, had enabled him to make up nearly the usual
time of labour, and produce as much manufactured goods as
before the experiment was tried, Air Gardner had said that
he would still further decrease the hours of laboer, but he,
(Mr. Bright) found that he had not made any further reduc-
tion in the time of his workpeople, and that his manager had
stated that a further reduction was not advisable. Now, the
Noble Lord does not know so much of th working of the ma-
nufactories as he ought to know, in meddling with questions
of that nature. The Noble Lord had once called upon the firm to
which he (Mr. Bright) belonged, and although requested to
go over the factory and inspect it, ho had refused. He was
rather too much disposed to listen to one side of the question,
and to get information about the condition of the manufactur.
ing population more from hearsay than from actual inspection.
Respecting the demoralisation of the factory population talked
of, he had seen a statement published by Mr. Clay, the ohaplin
of the Preston House of Correction. And what did he say ?
Why, that the femaleifactory operatives were chargeable with
the smallest number of offences. There were 20 classes of
offenders, beginning with No. 1, which class was the highest
for offences, and going up b No. 20, which was the smallest,
and the last class was the female operatives. No. 19 was the
domestic ser'ants, and the male operatives was class 14. This
was a proof that the demoralisation and degradation spoken of
did not exist. He might say that, generally, in the factory
districts, the evils hitherto complained of were diminishing at a
rapid rate, and that a better feeling between employer and
employed was springing up everywhere. A general disposition
was evinced on both sides to improve the condition of those en.
gaged in mills and factories The reason continually brought
forward in support of a Ten Hours Bill was, that it would
limit to some extent the competition going on between manual
and mechanical power. He could say, as far as Rochdale was
concerned, that the principal parties he had heard speak in its
favour were some hand.loom weavers in the woollen trade, who
said it was a proper object. to interfere with the working of the
power-loom, in order to effect an improvement in their con-
dition, and that of hand-loom weavers generally. He, how-
ever, would say, in reply to such a reason, that nothing could
be more disastrous to all parties concerned than any such at-
tempt to interfere with machinery for the advantage of any
particular class.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Bir-
mingham had alluded to the women working in factories while
the men were walking about, having nothing to do. To that
he would say, there was no place in England where adult la-
bour was in more demand than in Lancashire. The employ-
ment of women gave addilonal employment to the men, and
none could deny that the labourers in that part of the country
had a regularly increasing market for their services, and were
in steadier demand than elsewhere.—( Hear, hear.) He re-
gretted opposing the present Bill, as he knew many.of the
working classes were in favour of it, though not a majority;
but he did so, considering' it was not fur their interest that it.
should be passed. lie looked up .m the measure proposed by
the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government as
a far greater boon to the factory operatives than
any Bill like that submitted by the Noble Lord.
That measure, with such alterations in it as he hosed would be
made before it passed, once in operation,
buthe
bhyorpaetdintnhaalt
andthe
feeling in favour of short hours of labour would spread and
throughout the
n a
become extensive in the country: and that then the working
enlightened
in at
lnoatstsnes,
Least
notsat a
wt
unbnney
woollen
cuel
eleven
vm,
e districts.b n i
hours
n woulda
before
n e,
tsystem orr
ue
und
e
violence,
manyr 3ears, bring into opera-
, universally
present
circumstances,
however, he must oppose the measure of the Noble Lord—
( Hear, hear. )
Alr hIELDEN supported the Bill of the Noble Lord. His
experience of the factory system wuadshaitsleast as great as that of
,vioc
great benefit not only to
rtioenisewahse, htandeniof
passed, it would prove of
hear.)the working
—( Hear,
classes, but to the employers.He could not
Bight
e of the objection of the Hon. Baronet, ( Sir
see the fore
arnes Graham,) which had been echoed back by the Hon.
Member for Durham, that if the system as far as it had been
the Hon. Member for Durham, a
Hon. Member for Durham knew.
that it was not in the hands
but in that of their employers.
The
tried, had worked well, why was it not generally adopted. The
of the factory workers, .
former were not free agents in the
the Bill doubt they would have done it. It
Bwuast
saidwas not labour would inter-
fere with the rights of property.. . . . our property ?
entitled to protection as much
matetoenr,
And was not that property as ac-
cumulated( ear, hear.) But in doing so
should take care that the labourer was not injured, that his in-
terest was not destroyed. Those willing to labour should have
bosh the means and the power to labour, but if they overworked
them their capacity and power was destroyed., Under the pre-
sent system children of 13 years of age were
and obli:agged out of their
beds at five o'clock in the morning, au iged to go to the
factory, a distance perhaps of two or three f
lot•es, where they
were kept at labour till eight o'clock at night
Was that system of slavery to continue? Those who objected
to interfere with it, used the old haeknied argument employed
against the abolition of the slave-trade ; but it was too late
for them to get the public with them. In spite of all opposi-
tion he was satisfied that ere long a Ten Hours' Bill would be
passed. In proof of the growine feeling At i r
.avour of it, he
lately attended a meeting in Oldham, at the request of his
constituents, at which resolutions in favour of a Ten Hours'
Bill was passed ; and at that meeting two extensive cotton-
spinners were present. These two gentlemen were previously
against the measure, but on the illielrt `lPatiitin ora. of diem
took the chair, and the other spoke In favour of the object of the
meeting. If the House would pass' Ten Hours' Bill, the
question would be settled, and the agitation cease, but net till
then, —(Hear, hear. ) '
1 Mr. WAKLEY Honourable and
asked the Learned Mem-
ber for Bath if, after the speech of the Hob. Member who
had just sat dune, his opinions remains, d unchanged. That
Hon. and Learner!Geotletmen had ebtaineti
his
opietong in his
study, frombooks and documents issued by that House;
!Ago the lien, gemher for QI4II I
am who had spoken, was

TM E: SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, JANTJAWI 30, 1846.

one of the most experienced, intelligent, and humane men,
and one who had ever proved himself the friend of the poor.—
( Hear, hear.) He was a practical man, and not one that
would run through granite after principle.—( Laughter.) He
(Mr. Wakley) would ask the Hoc. and Learned Member, if
infants were to be slaughtered?—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Wakley) had heard with much pleasure the address of the
Hon. Member for Oldham, and coming from him it ought to
have great weight. The Hon. Member employed thousands of
Persons, and worked up a 100th part of the cotton imported into
ihir country—(Hear ) —and he was not afraid of any evil re-
sulting from a Ten Hours' Bill. He (Mr. Wakley) would call
the attention of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) to
the statement of that Hon. Member, and ask him to say if he
still retained his " unalterable opinion." It was rather rash,
after what bad passed the last few days, for men to talk of un-
alterable opiuiuns, seeing the great change the Government had
manifested in their former faith. He gave them full credit for
the change of opinion, but he had no sympathy with those who
denounced such a change on other questions.—(Hear, hear.)
He hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would reconsider the
question. He was sorry to hear him say he would oppose the
Bill. It was said the working classes could protect themselves,
and he thought so too, provided they were represented in the
House, for he was persuaded if they were duly represented
there, that a session would not pass before a Ten Hours' Bill
was passed. All that the Noble Lord asked was protection for
infants, who could not protect themselves, and if that was not
the object of legislation he did not know what was. Wealth
and intelligence could protect themselves. The Hon. Member
for Montrose (Mr. Flume) admitted that he would extend
education to the mind ; and now all that was asked was to carry
the powers a little further—to carry out physical education.
( se i t
In conclusion, he hoped the Noble Lord, when he introduced
his Bill, would adduce facts and arguments that could not be
right wouldMr. t o g itv
we s
doubted, and he also wished that the Right Hon. Baronet
give a
his heart good to
listen to the speech of the Hon. Member for Finsbury. His
candid
E supportGAconsiderationT E t
ns n thedit
Nobleh a t
do thedone
onrn
de
.question,H r and
eabear.
principle was better than the principle of the Noble and
Learned Member for Bath, or the Hon. Member for Durham.
He hoped also the Right Hon. Baronet would fully consider
the questi n, and would weigh it over, as he was about to
throw the labourers of this country open to the competition of
the world. The f.ictory operations ought to be protected, and
in this opinion he had the experience of the Hon. Member for
' Rochdale, and the medical knowledge of the Hon. Member for
Finsbury-
Mr. S. CRA WFORD expressed himself in favour of the
measure. He had taken some pains to ascertain the opinions
of the opera ives of Rochdale, and they were generally in favour
of the Ten Hours' Bill. He had, on former occasions, sup-
ported the Noble Lord, and he would cordially support him
now.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. Ni UNTZ would readily admit tbat the argument was
sound that the general labour of the country should be regula-
ted. As far, however, as regarded the cotton factories, he
knew that so long as the manufacturers kept their engines at
work, so long would they keep their work-people at labour. In
the cotton districts the labour of women and children was pre-
ferred to that of men. The women were working in the facto-
ries while the men were walking about with nothing to do.
This fact he has heard from several sources, and he considered
that such a condition of things was not proper. He should vote
for the Noble Lord's motion, because he thought it would be
for the benefit of the manufacturing classes.
leord ASHLEY said he wished to make a few remarks upon
what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Durham. The
Hon. Member had made a personal charge against him (Lord
Ashley), and he felt desirous to offer an explanation. He was
sorry to observe the Hon. Member was not in the Hou-e, as
he had particularly requested him to remain in. The year
before last, he (Lord Ashley) was residing in the county of
Lancaster with his friend the Hon. Member for Oldham.
Whilst there, he remembered he was within a short distance of
Rochdale, wbeie were mills belonging to the Hon. Member for
Durham. (He might state that he had then been over many
mills in the country, and was thoroughly conversant with the
working of them.) Well, he did go from his friend's house at
Oldham over to Rochdale, simply and solely that he might call
at the country house of the Hon. Member for Durham to see
him, or otherwise to leave his name. Why did he do this ?
Because in that very House the Hon. Member had attacked
him in a manner which he considered altogether unjustifiable ;
but as he had afterwards retracted what he had said, he (Lord
Ashley) thought that he would be, in colloquial phrase, acting
like a gentleman if he called upon him in a friendly manner.
The Hon. Member was out, and he (Lord A) saw his brother,
who asked him to look over the works. He (Lord A.) said
it was pot necessary; but he conversed with his brother for
half or three quarters of an hour. It might be asked why he
r
had not gone over the works, and he would tell the House the
reason, Because, if he had done so, it might be said he went
there to spy some fault, or to remark upon some little mis-
management, that he might bring it again against him. He
therefore thought the Hon. Member had travelled a little out of
the record when he said that he (Lord Ashley) toolt a one-
sided view of the subject, becaqse, when asked to look over the
works, he had refused to do so. He was most anxious to make ,
this miplanation, and he trusted the House would forgive him
for having dune so,
Lord JOHN MANNERS moved for leave to bring in a
Bill to alter and amend the laws relating to bequests for pious
and charitable purposes. He would content himself with ask-
ing leave to bring in a Bill, unless some Hon. Member had
something to say upon the subject.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. HAMILTON, on the part of Lord Clements, moved
for a return of the Police Reward Fund (Ireland), constituted
by the Ant 0 and 't Wm. IV., for the year ending 31st Decem-
ber, 1848; also for a return of the Police Superannuation Fund
for the same period,
Mr. WODEHOUSE postponed till Monday the notice he
had upon the paper respecting highway rates.
Mr. F. 'l'. BARING suggested to the Right Hon. Baronet .1
opposite ( Sir J. Graham) that it would be better if all the items
of local taxation were included in one sheet, instead of being
scattered over many documents, as they wereat present.
Sir J. GRA HA NI said, any one reading the admirable report
issued on local taxation would be aware that it was a most diffi-
cult subject; not less than a sum of 12,000,010/. being arranged i
under twenty-two general rates, which are enumerated under 4
the general head of local taxation. 1
Mr. F. FFRENCH wished to know if it were the intention
of Government to propose any amendment of the Poor-la'-
Ireland. .. of
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that should '•
the Poor-law of Ireland,
an inquiry to bei nstituted as regard- „. it be necessary for
the Government. The Hon.
no obstacle would be offered •
dial:: 'o.l;e observed that there was a motion to
Member mayk pe,
this effect zy Lq:ri Clancarty, upon the journals of the other
House.,
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL could not entertain a hope that
the poor-law in Ireland would bear a severe test. Even in the
most favourable time, the poor-law in Ireland had not been
able to alleviate the pauperism of that country. It was now
fated to urdergo a severe test indeed, and though he (Mr. J.
O'Connell) entertained, as he had already stated, no hope that
it could do so successfully, yet he should be glad to find him-
self mistaken. It had been truly stated that that country was
within three or four weeks of a famine, and the House might
perhaps be aware that that famine was generally accompanied
by a typhus fever. He might mention that a very powerful
pamphlet had been written by Dr. Conaghan, of Dublin,
proving this fact. He entered his protest against this being
considered a boon to Ireland, or that it was anything which
Ireland had to be grateful for to that House. The people of
Ireland considered it a small—a very small—instalment of their
right. Ireland had been robbed of a hundred times this miser-
able amount, and this he would be ready at any time to prove.
Mr. CRAWFORD said the Irish poor-law admitted of no
external relief. Now, if &famine were to take place, it would
be impossible to extend relief to all the houses, and he would,
therefore, impress upon the Government the propriety of con-
sidering what means could be taken by which a further de-
scription of relief might be afforded.
'1 he House then went into Committee on the sill.
The whole of the clauses having been agreed to, with some
alight amendments, the House resumed, when the Chairman
reported progress, and the Bill was ordered to be printed as
amended.

RAILWAYS.
Mr. BROTHERTON presented petitions for leave to bring
in Bills for making the Direct London and Manchester, the
Cashel and Waterford, and several other railways, and petitions
against the North Staffordshire, the London, Newbury, and
Bath Direct, the York and North Midland Extension, the
Direct London and Portsmouth, and other projected railways.

IRISH FISHERIES.
Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE gave notice that on Mon-
day he should move for leave to bring in a Bill for the con-
struction of small ports and harbours for the extension of the
fisheries in Ireland.