The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-01 00:00:00

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against him some days ago, of having male
and-twenty blunders in three resolutions. It was
promised that the duties on British double-refined
sugar should be reduced from 19s. 6d. per cwt.
to 18s., and on single-refined sugar from 16s.
4d. to 155.; but that boon was nothing at
all if it was not accompanied by the assurance
that the British colonies should be permitted t ) refine in
bond. What must the trade in this country think of a
Government which camp down to that House, after
seven weeks' consideration, with a measure which was
full of blunders, and without consulting, until the last
moment, the Chairman of Customs or the Chairman of
Excise on the three resolutions levying certain rates of
duty on sugar, the growth and produce of any foreign
country? They had thrown overboard the project of re-
fining in bond for home consumption, and were now en-
couraging refining in the colonies. In Belgium they
bad a bounty duty of 3s. or 4s. on the export of Dutch
refined sugar, and for the increase of these bounties in
this country he had given notice of his amendment. He
bad kept to the fixed scale of descending duties of the
old Act. The Right Hon. Gentleman had promised the
British interest a great boon, which he was now de-
sirous to withhold. The loss which he feared was not
real. He concluded by moving to leave out of tie reso-
lution the words, " on such sugar not otherwise charged
with duty."
Mr. LABOUCHERE defended the resolution.
Mr. WILSON thought the resolution of the Noble
Lord would have the most injurious effects. Suppose
Holland were to give a preference to the United States
for cotton, instead of England, what would the indigna-
tion of the Noble Lord be, when he recollected that by a
special treaty with this country they were bound to admit
goods from it, as from the most favoured nation? Mr.
• Deacon Hume laid down that in all goods exported from
• this country to others there was no ground whatever
for stating from whence they originally came; and on
that account he contended that to violate the principle at
that moment would be most impolitic and unjust. There
was one very important point iu the Noble Lord's motion
• 'to which he should beg leave to call the attention of the
West India interest, as a most prejudicial course of pro-
ceeding. Whatever reduction may take effect in sugar,
it was absolutely necessary that it should be made to
the consumer, in order to increase the consumption. The
Bon. Gentleman then went into a variety of details, to
show that in almost every case of reduction since 1845,
the colonies were not benefited in the degree that might
be expected. He therefore thought that if the motion
of the Noble Lord was carried out, instead of being an
advantage, it would prove most injurious to the West
Indian interests. He believed the introduction of Dutch
sugar into this country was a matter of policy, and
ought not to ho rejected.
, Mr. GOULBURN contended that the admission of
;, Dutch sugar under the terms proposed by the Bill would
have the most serious effects, and he a great hardship to
other countries trading with this.
Mr. DISRAELI understood the Right Honourable
'Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade to say
there was only one point in the speech of his• Noble
. Friend which required consideration. Now he thought
there was another point in his Noble Friend's speech,
• and that was, that if Dutch sugar was admitted as
a. proposed, the question ought to have been submitted to
• Parliament as early as May last. Not a single word
Was then said of it, although, as had been observed by
the Right Honourable Gentleman, who seemed to have
sugar legislation immediately under his care, it was a
9,yestion of high policy. It was not brought before the
West Indian Committee by any Member of the Govern-
ment, and, as he had 'said before, not a word was said of
it in the month of May last. Now as to the second
Pint, natnely, domestic refinement, or that which al-
lowed British merchants to have the power of refining in
bond. What was the fact? They examined witnesses
bearing on that point before the Committee, and pro-
Mised relief in that way in the House; but now the pro-
ject appeared to have been abandoned. He complained
that the Government had attempted to carry this ques-
n without laying before the House sufficient data in
orderru er to justify the course of the legislation proposed to
d.
....._safter a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the
Z.XCHEQUER,
Mr. GLADSTONE said it might be strict equity to
admit the Dutch refiner to come into competition Stith
the home refiner; but then the case was very different
When the Dutch refiner had the assistance of his own
Government by means of bounties to place him in a
better position than he would otherwise be in if he were
only to rest upon his own energies: In that case the
British refiner was placed in an unequal position as re-
garded the competition ofilia Dutch refiner.
Lord J. RUSSELL asked whether the Right Hon.
• Gentleman, would have one 'rifle for Holland and another
for Hamburgh? He did not think he would. Then,
Would he propose to make a difference between sugar
riot grown in Holland and sugar manufactured in it? He
thought that would act unfavourably for this country,
because it would give Holland an opportunity of making
a distinction between cotton manufactured in this couns
try and the cotton of the United States. The Right
Ron. Gentleman said that they could give Holland no-
tice, that they would terminate the treaty. But the Right
Iron. Gentleman must consider that the treaty was not
; confiued to refined sugar, but that it regulated the gene-
ral trade between Holland and this country, and would
he, in order to exclude refined sugar, give Holland an
_ opportunity of increasing the diffrential duty on the
manufactured goods of this country, thereby giving an
advantage to the manufactures of France, Germany, and
y,
the United States? But did the refiners of Holland
derive any advantage fr3rn her bounty ? He did not
delly that there might be some apparent advantage
the
bounty. But in the first place there was
Feat difference of opinion whether there was any real
,lanty or not; and in the next, they found a great
Zanee in Holland saying that it was a disadvantage.
But what was conclusive to his mind on the subject was
Matt the refiners of this country were able to compete
With those of Holland in their markets.—(Hear, hear.)
Re
esuevjas not surprised that the Noble Lord who advo-
protection should advocate the exclusion of refined
..._tigar from Holland, but that the Right Hon. Gentleman
711° followed a different principle should do so, very
much surprised him.
oneIIERRIES said the whole question at issue was
-6 of
to and he denied that the principle pro-
sonPeltedto be acted on was one of free trade.
lter a few words from Mr. Urquhart, Col. Thomp •
. and Lord G. Be t* Ic,
The II n
ouse divided, when there appeared—
For ;he amendment
Against it

-it
The other resolutioM
nsaj were then agreed to, and 53
Vosed
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro-
that progress be reported to-morrow (this day),
and that the House sit in Committee upon the Bill on
Thuraday.

THE RUNI DUTIES.
~, The Rum Duties Bill was read a third time.
SUPPLY—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
The House then went into Committee of Supply.
Colonel ANSON, in rising to move the Ordnance Es-
timates, not yet voted, said, that the delay which had
taken. place in moving these estimates had arisen en-
tirely from the House having thought it desirable to re-
fer them, with the military and naval estimates, to the
investigation of a Committee up-stairs ; that Committee
had now been sitting for five months, and its labours had
resulted in a report on the naval estimates. With re-
ference to the ordnance estimates, there seemed to be an
impression abroad that, because they were double what
they were in 1828, there was necessarily great extrava-
gance chargeable upon the department ; but such was not
the feet. Ile was prepared to show that every item of
Which they were composed, as well as the amount under
•,„ae,h item, was essential to the efficiency of the service.
The House had already voted- the main por-
tion .of the money required for this denartment.
lie would now go briefly through the re-
Inalling items, giving in relation to each particular such
further explanation as might be subsequently demanded.
Tie" The first'vote he should submit was for the pay, allow-
, and • contingencies of ordnance Military corps.
,sot
oinnlcyrease in this department he was sure would be
It Was assented -to, but- approved of by the country.
generally admitted that our artillery force pecu-
liarly should be kept in a state of complete efficiency, and
it bad accordingly been deemed essential to make consi-
derable additions to this force, the total increase in the
estimate being 99.015 L, upon a total estimate of 716,254/,
The second vote was for commissariat and barrack sup=
plies for her clothing Majesty's forces, great-coats for the army,
15
a for the colonial corps, &c., the amount being
,0311. Here there was also an increase, in the par-
tic iterer, - necessarily arising from the increase of
he forcea to be supplied; but in consequence of a
the for
of other' items, there would be a dimi-
nution in tbi3 tetsil sum asked, as compared with last
Year, of 54,433/. The next vote was 91 1364 for the ex-
pense ,s of the ordnance offices at the Tower and Pall
0111111, being less by 5,311/. than the sum voted last year,
!tlthough the work performed at these offices had ma-
terially inereased. The fourth vote was for establish-
inwins the. United Kingdom and Colonies, 235,6461.,
being an ingress. upon the vote of last year of 7,5161.
lie-did not-think that when the nesessary extent of our
military stations at home and abroas considred,
this vote would be considered excessive,d but he admitted
that it was one upon which the House would naturally
The increase in the vote arose
chiefly from the extension which had been deemed
essential of our barrack establishments m partien-
larly in Ireland, in which part of theory
aid been calculated there would be an kingdomaddition utit
lay this year, under the head in question, of 10,2421. o I .
vnte 5, a very large increase would be observed; thisn
vote was for wages of artificers and labourers in the
• 'United Kingdom and colonies 137,852/., being an in-1
crease of not less than 20,7151. It had been considered
of the highest importance to lose no further time in tho-
roughly completing the efficiency of our artificer depart-
tient, more especially at Woolwich, but it was to be
borne in mind that the result of this greater efficiency,
mid of the machinery which was being extensively intro-
(Need, would be ultimately to reduce the expense of this
2ePartraent. The next vote was stores, 463,7434, being
y
'5,000/. beyond the sum voted last year under this head.
II
._e eou.l d assure the Committee, however, that not one
Zugle shilling had been added beyond whit was deemed
f,:cessary. The store of small arms, for instance, had
ree considered altogether inadequate to the require-
detsef the public service, and an increase, accordingly,
afore
been made in this particular item to the extent
,4 This very increase, however, would keep.
"Ire estimates down. The next item was for ord-
mince e. stores of every description ; 38,0001. for entrench
vd‘oolli ; 25,0004 for camp equipages, the store of
Ich had-fallen very short ; 20,0001. for saltpetre an i
):0007der. In the royal carriage department there was
labe" (and this would go but a small way); for the
depart ery at Woolwich 50,000/. ; for the storekeepers'
shot and 'tint 40,0004; making altogether 273,0001. For
• vote of shell there was an addition of 14;0001. over the
th-abUof least y.eer. The various other items were much
the bias in the estimates of the previous year, but
e tkat they had to ask the Luse to

!sanction an increase of 95,000/. over the vote of last
year. But this expenditure being necessary for the
efficiency of the service, and as this was one of the
last items in which they should endeavour to econo-
mise, he trusted he should have the concurrence of
the Committee. He now came to No. 7, which was the
largest vote in these estimates. In this vote Govern.
ment had thought it desirable to make a reduction.
and he had laid on the table a revised vote showing a
decrease on the correspondinte vote as contained in the
original estimates of 119,875/. He must not, however,
be understood as acknowledging that the vote as origi-
nally proposed was not justified. 13,:t since the first es-
timates were proposed circumstances had occurred in
the finances of the country which rendered it necessary
for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to endeavour, by
reducing the estimates, to meet the difficulty which be-
set him on every side. This was communicated to the
Ordnance, and the opinion of the Master-General, the
Commander-in-Chief, and the Inspector-General of For-
tresses was taken as to the possibility of making any re-
ductions in the expenditure of that department ; and it
was thought that as there were certain works which had
been done without before, these might be done without
now, and the expense which they would occasion de-
ferred till another year.—(llcar, hear.) This was the
mode in which a reduction iu these estimates had been
effected. The House must not, however, expect
that these works could he indefinitely postponed ;
on the contrary, they were considered as absolutely
necessary by the high authorities to whom he had
alluded ; and he hoped, when the state of the finances
would justify it, that the House would readily sanction
the expense. The gross amount of the reduction in this
vote was 134,6751., and the detail of the items on which
it was effected would be found fully explained in the re-
vised estimates which had been laid on the table. They
comprised the charges for ordnance home stations, bar-
racks in Great Britain, barracks •in Ireland, ordnance
foreign, and barracks foreign. There were some small
additions in the home stations, for completing the sea
batteries at Gravesend and Tilbury, for the defences of
the harbour at Albany now forming, and for increased
barrack accommodation in Ireland, which would take
the place of some of the reductions, and reduce the
total saving to the sum he had stated, viz., 119,875/.
He might be permitted to add that the vote was made
out in a different form than on previous occasions, and
supplied more information. In the last part of the vote
in which provision was taken for works less than 1,000/.,
each particular work was separately stated and ex-
plained.—(Hear, bear.) The next vote was for the
scientific branch ; 71,987/ was the sum proposed to be
taken for this; last year the amount voted was 58,98€!,
consequently there was here;an increase of 13,001!. That
was according to the original estimate, but he now pro-
posed to take a vote for 3,200/. less, deducting that sum
from the item 6,200/. for the junior academy at Car-
shalton, which could nut this year be carried out to the
extent proposed when the estimates were prepared.
There had been some complaints of irregularities at this
academy, which had engaged the attention of ',the Mas-
ter-General, and the measures he had carried into effect
in consequence, he was happy to say, had much im-
proved the discipline of the school, and he believed no
complaints had of late been made. This establishment,
whose object was to prepare the cadets for the college
at Woolwich, was of no expense to the public ; the ex-
pense was wholly paid by the friends of the pupils; but
as the payments made by Omni on account of the cadets
could not be inserted in the accounts until the year after
the payment, they were obliged to propose a vote. The
House would be aware that the vote was principally for
the Ordnance survey of the United Kingdom, for which
purpose it was now proposed to take the stun of 60,000/.
That survey was proceeding in a satisfactory manner; and
though there were some complaints of preference given
to England and Ireland, and of consequent delay in Scot-
land, the manner in which it was carried on was such
that there was every reason for supposing that this valu-
able work would be completed at the earliest possible
period. The reduction on the Carshalton academy item
would reduce the increase in this vote from 1,300/, to
9,8001. The next vote, which was for non-effective
services, they could not alter ; the total amount this
year was less than the vote of the previous year by
1,121/. This was the statement he had to make, and he
could assure the House that in providing for the supplies
and in expending the public money, the department with
which he was connected paid every regard to economy
consistent with the efficiency of the service. The first
vote he had to propose was, 316,2541. for pay allowances
arid contingencies of Ordnance military corps ; the
total vote was 716,254/, but 400,000! had already been
granted on account.
The question having been put,
Mr. OSBORNE inquired if the report of the Select
Committee on the estimates had been presented ?
Mr. F. MAULE replied that the Committee had not
taken the ordnance estimates into consideration, nor did
they propose to do so during the present session. They
had hitherto been engaged on the navy estimates, their
report of which had been laid on the table.
Colonel SIBTHOEP objected to voting these esti-
mates until the report was produced. Everything was
now to be postponed until next session except the " cor •
rapt practices."—(A laugh.) Ile wished to know
whether the Corrupt Practices Bill was to be brought on
to-morrow at twelve o'clock. If the Noble Lord would
satisfy him on that point he would retire without offer-
ing any opposition to the estimates.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not propose to take that Bill
to-morrow at twelve o'clock.
Sir F. T. BARING stated that the Committee on
public expenditure had been engaged for some time on
the navy estimates, and had gone into details which had
occupied their- whole time till now, -and when Hon:
Members read the report which bad been presented ho
thought they would not say their time had been wasted.
--(Cheers.) He was bound also to say that the Govern-
ment had afforded the Committee every explanation and
document that was required.—(Hear.) With regard to
the ordnance estimates, as the Committee had made no•
inquiry into them, he was not prepared to offer any op
position to these votes. Ile understood government in.

tended to appoint a similar Committee next session,wh
should take the ordnance and other estimates into con-
sideration.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord J. Russell.) He
was satisfied with that assurance, but in voting for
these estimates, he wished it to be understood that he
did so on the responsibility of the Government only.
His opinion was, that without trenching on the effi-
ciency of the several services, the estimates might be
reduced. He spoke from what he had seen as to the navy
estimates, which he had had the opportunity of ex-
amining, and lie hoped that in another year .Goveru-
ment would find that considerable reduction would not
be incompatible with perfect efficiency.
Mr. B. OSBORNE must enter his protest against
the whole system of management in the Ordnance de-
partment. He complained of the expense of the Royal
Horse Artillery, which he described as a corps kept
up as a plaything for foreign ambassadors and fur re-
views. Since the last expedition to Portugal, this force
had never, he believed, left England. If the horse
artillery was dispensed with, they might have a much
larger force of foot artillery, which was far more
useful. As to the clothing of the artillery—as re-
garded the line, they were tuld that the system was a
good one of making au allowance for the clothing to
the general officer; if so, why was not the same system
acted upon in the artillery?
Colonel ANSON defended the horse artillery who, he
said, might be called the cavalry of the artillery. Field
batteries were, no doubt, efficient in a field of battle
where a position might be taken up; but in dispatching
troops suddenly from one place to another the horse.
artillery was indispensable. As to their clothing, he did
not mean to defend it; but the efficiency of the corps did
not depend on that, but on their activity, their dis-
cipline, and high military character.
Mr. OSBORNE said that if a Committee were granted
he would pledge himself to prove that a much more
efficient force than the horse artillery might be main-
tained at half the cost.

Mr. HERRIES said that when the estimates had been
presented at the commencement of the session they were
thought excessive, and a Committee was appointed to
revise them. Now, however, they were called upon to
pass those estimates, being told that the Committee had
given up all hope of getting further than the naval
estimates during the present session. He was not pre-
pared to say that the ordnance estimates should be re-
duced, but certainly the House was not placed in a fair
position for their consideration. If the estimates had
been brought forward at an earlier period, they might,
with the assistance of the Committee, have effected
a considerable reduction. Under these circumstances,
he .had only to express his regret that such a course had
not been adopted, and his hope that some examination
might take place in the ensuing session.
Admiral BOWLES said that when the report of the
Committee; came to be compared with the evidence he
believed it would not be found worthy the Consideration
of the House.

Mr. F. MAULE defended the course he had taken
on the Committee. He denied having done anything to
damage the opinion of the Committee in the estimation
of the House.

was composed of gen-
tlemente complain that the Committee
while there was not a single
Admiral BOWLES explained. He had merely meant
of extreme opinions,
Consequently,
i that the money of the
Col. SIBTHORP complainedpi
tr oh fueds s immei ar
el i
ym abeenn amonggrup in itsg.i
umtehme bdearrsk. .
country was always voted away iu a thin House.
The vote was then agreed to.
barracks, and fur the
116,0311., for commissariat and
the
supply of great-coats for the army, was proposed.
of
great-coats
the supplyordnance estimates.
for the army being mixed up with
____ _
N,
the
vote
was
Mr. OSBORNE objected to
After a few words from Colonel ANSON,
agreed to.
be 4m60,1v3,61; for the ordnance department in the Tower
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that the system on which the
no n
co
ordance was managed was most extravagant. He had
naplaint to make of the Master-General, but he
would put it to the Housc whether an officer of hussars
was fit to manage the artillery department of the empire
He moved that the vote be reduced by 3,0001., the Mas-
ter-General's salary.
The amendment was negatived without a division, and
the vote was agreed to.
120,646/. was voted for the barrack department and
garrison staff.
28,5671., wages of artificers in the United Kingdom.
233,743/. for ordnance stores, land and sea service.
34,1654 for works, haildings, and repairs at home and
abroad.
On it being proposed to vote the sum of 28,7871., for
the scientific branch of tho ordnance,
Mr. B. OSBORNE asked if this sum included the
e x
Colonel
fAthicessouNrvesyai(d)f
the Ordnance had nothing to do
with that survey.
Captain GORDON asked whether an y money was to
year? y o
be granted for the Ordnance Survef Scotland this
Colonel ANSON said that 13,0001. had been applied
to this purpose last year, and 15,000/, wottld be appro-
priated to it during the present year.