The Sun.
London, England, 1848-02-19 00:00:00

NATIONAL DEFENCES.

Lord HARDWICKE said it was very desirable
that the House should know whether it was the in-
tention of Government to resist the motion of which
he had given notice, and he begged to put that ques-
tion to the Noble Marquis the President of the
Council.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was not in a
position to answer the Noble Lord's question.
DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH THE COURT

OF ROME.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition
from Glasgow against the Bill for establishing diplo-
matic relations with the Court of Rome.
On the question being put for going into Commit-
tee on the a, ove Bill,
Earl FITZWILLIAM said he highly approved
of the principle of the measure. It was of the utmost
mportance that this country should have an
accredited agent at the Court of Rome, and he for one
thought no Man could look at what was at present
going on in many parts of Europe without being
convinced of this. A struggle was going on beti,veen
absolute Governments and free institutions, and when
he remembered that the Pope was favourall3 to
the party who supported the latter mode of
government, he could not help thinking thr ; it ViTS
their bounden duty to give him the support of
such a measure as this. But what could be
more important to this country than being placed
in a position to communicate officially with the
Pope of Rome on the subject of his relations with
her Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, particularly
with these who resided in this country, and being,
therefore, a supporter of the principle of thin
Bill, and ready to vote fur going into
Committee to consider its provisions, he was anxious
to throw out a suggestion that the objections of some
of its oponents might be obviated by changing the
phraseology in which it was worded.
Lord CAMPBELL, in answer to a call from the
Noble Earl who had just sat down, could assure the
House that there was nothing now on the statute
book, or in the common law of the land, to
prevent her Majesty from establishing diplomatie
relations with the Court of Rome, and he trusted,
therefore, that there would be no obj(ction to the
form of this Bill.
Their Lordships then went into Committee.
Lord STANLEY suggested that the existing pre-
amble should be struck out, and the words following
substituted :—" Whereas doubts having arisen as to
the power of her Majesty to establish diplomatic rela-
tions with the Court ofßome, without the sanction of an
Act cf Parliament, be it therefore enacted," &c. This
would probably remove the objection alluded to by
the Noble Earl who had addressed their Lordships
before going into Committee.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not think
it advisable to make such an alteration.

The Bishop of WINCHESTER objected to the
words " Sovereign Pontiff," and wished that some
other title should be applied to the Pepe.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it might
perhaps remove the objection of the Right RQV.
Prelate if they inserted the words, the " Sovereign
Pontiff of Rome." _

The Bishop of WINCHESTER said it would
not, because the term " Sovereign Pontiff "
implied that the sovereign holding that had
a supremacy over the sovereigns of other
countries than Rome. If the Noble Lord would
simply introduce the words " Sovereign of the Roman
States" it would meet his objecion.—(Hear.)
After a few words from the Earl of SHREWS-
BURY, _ _

The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S saw no objection to
the words as they stood in the Bill, for the term
Sovereign Pontiff did not imply any superiority over
the sovereigns or ecclesiastics of other nations. The
term "Sovereign Pontiff," was to be found in Hume's
" History of England," and many other works of
eminent Protestants, anl he could see no just reason
why it should not be introduced into this Bill.
The Bishop of EXETER said, notwithstanding
what had fallen from the Right Rev. Prelate, he
must still object to the words used in the Bill. Ac-
cording to the doctrine of the Protestant Church,
• there was no Sovereign Pontiff in Christendom, and
it was no reason because some Protestant historian
bud loosely used the term Sovereign Pontiff while
speaking of the reign of Henry the Second,
that it ought to be introduced into the Bill. Indeed,
the great question in dispute between the Bishop of
Rome and the Reformed Church was, whether he
had a right to adopt the title of Sovereign Pontiff,
and although the term might have been used in his-
tory, he most decidedly objected to its being now
for the first time applied to legislative forms.
Lord COLCIIESTER warned their Lordships that
it might lead to future difficulty, for it might so
Jiappen that the Pope of Rome might not be the
sovereign of the Roman States.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the term So-
vereign Pontiff had been applied to the Pope of Rome
as a title of courtesy for many centuries, and as it
was used in this Bill in the same sense he could not
see upon what ground their Lordships could object
to it. Still he had no objection to adopt the words
" Sovereign of the Roman States."
The Duke of WELLINGTON said the Bill had
for its object the establishment of diplomatic relations
between the Roman States and this country upon
political matters ; it appeared to him that the term or
title " Sovereign of the Roman States" was prefer-
able to Sovereign Pontiff.
The amendment was then agreed to.
Earl of EGLINTON considered that it was ad-
visable that diplomatic relations should be established
with the Court of Rome, but these diplomatic rela-.
tions ought to be strictly of a political character.
He should, therefore, move as an amendment to that
part of the Bill empowering her Majesty to receive
an Ambassador from Rome, that the following words
be inserted in page 2, line 26, after tlae word what-
soever, " not being in holy orders in the Church of
Rome, nor a Jesuit, or member of any other reli-
gious order, community, or society of the Church of
Rome, bound by monastic or religious vows."
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not think it
was expedient for their Lordships to dictate to the
Court of Rome as to whom they should send to this
country as ambassadors; and he must, therefore,
resist the introduction of the amendment.—(Hear,
hear.) This Bill would only place her Majesty.
on a footing at the Court of Rome with other Pro-
testant sovereigns of Europe, but the Noble Earl
opposite wished that the Pope should be compelled to
concede more to her Majesty, and he, for one, could
not agree that this country had a right to make such
a demand.
The Earl of ABERDEEN rose to record his vote in
favour of the amendment. He had had very consider-
able experience, and he sincerely deprecated the resi-
dence of a Papal nuncio in this country—(llear, hear)
—not
.from any anti-Catholic feelings upon his part,
for ealhis life 'he was in favour of the removal of Boman
Catholic disabilities, but his objection proceeded en-
tirely from the great inconvenience to which the resi-
dence of a nuncio in this country must necessarily lead.
A nuncio must be an ecclesiastic, and
be invested with almostliostedas such he would
power. He would
possess acknowledged
whole Roman Catholic spiritual superiority over the
.people of this country. The
appointment of a nuncio was in fact ansfering the
If, however, must exist, he
Vatican to England.
should much rather see it remain at Rome
htehaan that it
should be transferred to London.—
The Duke of WELLINGTON thought the) Noble
Lord (Eglinton) was out of order. There would be no
necessity for the proposed clause if the Noble Marquis
(Lansdowne) adopted the suggestion made last night,
and inserted the words ‘‘ diplomatic relations;" it would
put an end to the necessity for specifying the classifica-
tion or denomination of the particular persons to be ap.
pointed. He thought it desirable that tthehe appointed
question of
the rank and description of personthe
should stand entirely open.—(Bear, he a ro. )
Lord BEAUMONT expressed his regret and surprise
at the reasons assigned by the Noble Lords opposite for
their opposition to the measure as it was proposed. He
considered it not only expedient, but necessary and most
important, that there should be a diplomatic con-
nexion established between this country and Rome.
If no other advantage was to bo reaped from
it 'than to deprive Dr. WHale, and other such
persons, of the opportunity of making misrepresenta-
tions respecting the state of Ireland, the measure would
be of the utmost use and importance. Dr. APHale, and
?,hers of his class, send their accredited agents to
Rome, and from those persons and the representations.
theyw thought proper to make, all knowledge of Ireland
evaserobtained by the Pope. He (Lord Beaumont) and
y enlightened man in
.this country believed that,
circumstanced as Ireland
as far as he It th
efre6tivelY, through ti ' is, it will be governed most
e instrumentality of Rome. But
that the less they ' had tOpinion prevalent hi Italy was
to do with Ireland the better.—
(Hear, ,hear, and a laugh.)
were
party who objected to
the measure out of doors,Oa
thueuree the ultra Protestants,
opposgarty in Ireland, no
—reasons. The one
and the ultra-itoman
doubt for opposite—very
- _because they imagined the measure would give their
Catholics
~.. -1....„.):, . ..nepts more power, and the ultra-Roma op-
, Q,--:--5i.:%4,-f 1-, . ip&fld it because they knew they would lon
t,l :1-;,:f",W. : .ianfluence acquired by the means and fanirsenhoowf
~ kT•Co's.N,IB:4I
Eis; y . them, to make the grossest misrepresentations
4vl_,
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