The Sun.
London, England, 1848-03-21 00:00:00

TtLE BUN, LONDON, TUESDAY

One of their countrymen (Mr. Sturge) went on a depu-
tation to France the other day. What business he had
there he should not say; but the Minister of Finance
Slid that no addition should be made to the French navy,
and that he was delighted to find England was disposed
to remain in peace. His Hon. Friend asked, where was
the security for peace? but his answer was—where was
the danger of war? His Hon. Friend said they were rich,
and should keep up large establishments; but, was not the
szpenditure incurred in those establishments an excel-
lwat method to make the country poor? Over and over
again he (Mr. Hume) was requested not to oppose the
naval estimates, because it was a popular branch of the
service. Well, he consented, but he should take care
never to do so again. It was then said, why did you
turn round now, after having passed over these votes
for years? but his answer was, that they had a full
Pocket, and were able to pay their debts; tut now the
case was otherwise, and they should not, therefore, be
permitted to increase their expenditure. Give us the
estimates for this year, said his lion. Friend. No man
was more anxious to sustain the public credit than he
Was, but it was because he deemed them extravagant he
should oppose them. Their deficiency this year was
4,800,0001, or nearly 5,000,0001., and would the Houss
permit her Majesty's Government to go into debt without
any means of paying it? Indirect taxation cannot be had
recourse to, and how then was that deficiency to be paid
off, unless by reducing their establishments? The lion.
Member then referred to the great and useless expen-
diture incurred in keeping fleets in the Mediterranean,
on the west coast of Africa, in America, in the Pacific,
and other parts of the world. He contended that there
was no reason for the increase of the navy during the
last ten years. In 1842 or 1843, Sir Robert Peel asked
for 36,500 sailors, and said that he required this number
until the ships returned from the China war; thereby
intimating that when the China war terminated, the
number of men would be reduced. Yet it appeared that
the number of men had increased, year bylyear, up to
the present moment. Again, when Sir Robert Peel
asked for 1,000,000/. to build a steam navy, it was never
intended that they should go on building sailing vessels
of war.—(Hear, hear.) We had now, however, in-
creased war steamers to the extent of ninety six, and
yet we were going on increasing the number of our
railing ships. The Honourable Member then said he
had a statement in his hand which showed the state of
the navy from the year 1835 up to the present
period. In the year 1835 the number of ships was 167,
with 20,000 men. The number of ships of war regu-
larly increased until last year. In 1847 the number of
ships was 266, and this year the number was to be re-
duced to 235. This being so, he wished to know why
they desired to increase the number of men? He con-
tended upon the whole they could safely reduce the navy
by le,ooo men; but he would only ask to reduce the
number to 36,000. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded
to the disuse of flogging in the navy, a circumstance
which was highly creditable to the officers of the navy,
and was an important recognition of the feelings of the
public en this subject. He would counsel the Commit-
tee not to assent to estimates which they could not meet,
and here he would undertake to show that the revenue
for the lest year was as good as it had been for several
years before, and if they had not increased the expen-
diture of the country—which they did unnecessarily—
they would have been enabled to meet the expenditure
of the country by the receipts which they derived from
the revenue. The Honourable Gentleman then said,
that the averege of the revenue of the country, in 1841
and 1842, was 51,800,0001., which was 651,0001. over
he expenditure of the country, and that was a surplus
exceeding the average surplus for the preceding ten or
twelve years. Then, if he took the average income of
the country in 1846, he found that it amounted to fifty-
seven millions and a half, and if they deducted the
income-tax from this amount, they would still have a
revenue of 52,000,0001., giving a surplus of 241,000/.
superior to the expenditure of the country previous to
the imposition of the income-tax; so that if they had
not increased the charges on the country, they would
have been enabled to have met the expenditure by the
amount of the revenue received. The lion. Gentleman
concluded by moving that the number of men be reduced
from 43,000 to 36,000.
Mr. CORRY defended the increase which had been
made in the navy of late years, and justified the conse-
quent increase in the number of men, and the amount
of the stores. He contended there was no foundation
whatever for the charge made by. the Honourable Mem-
ber for Montrose, that the Government had gone on
extravagantly increasing the navy ; and in support
of his position he showed that in tile year 1793
the number of ships of the line was 129, and the frigates
amounted to 135, while at the present period they re
spectively reached but 71 and 90. Having gone at some
length into the affairs of the navy, he urged upon the
House that the present number of men was not greater
than the requirements of the country demanded. He
hoped the Committee would give their support to the
vote, and that the lion. Member for Montrose would be
left in the glorious minority he deserved.
Mr. B. COCHRANE based his opposition to the
amendment proposed by Mr. Hume on the present aspect
of affairs, which he contended were far more threatening
and warlike than the lion. Gentleman appeared to ima-
gine. War, he believed, was almost inevitable in
Europe. It might be unwise to say that war was immi-
nent, but it would be equally untrue to affirm that the
date of Yranco was not most menacing towards Europe;
end if it one reached this continent, England could not
well escape, particularly if such scenes were reverted to
as the disgraceful exhibition they had a few days since
in the presentation —the disgraceful presentation, he
would say—of an address to the Provisional Government
of France, by the English residents in Paris. If they
did not wish to be embroiled in an European war, their
countrymen ought not to interfere in the internal affairs
of other countries, while the Government remained pas-
sive. The truest way to prevent war was, in his opinion,
to be prepared to meet it.—(Hear, hear.) He should,
therefore, support the vote proposed by the lion. Gentle-
man the Secretary for the Admiralty.
Mr. AGLIONBY referred to the manner in which he
conceived Captain Warner had been treated with re-
spect to his invention, and called upon some of the
members of the Army, Navy, and Ordnance Committee
to explain why it was that a communication which the
Gallant Gentleman bad addressed to them, requesting,
as the basis for considerable saving, an investigation into
the merits of his extraordinary, machine, had not been
attended to. Captain Warner, in his opinion, had been
very unfairly treated. His proposed instrument of de-
struction was stated as likely to effect considerable
retrenchment in the naval expenditure, an he did not
think it becoming that the plan should have been
laughed at, or hooted down, without any due or suffi-
cient inquiry having been made into its capabilities. lie
now asked the Committee appointed to consider whether
any and what saving could be effected in the army, navy,
and ordnance expenditure, whether an intention existed
on their part of calling Captain Warner before them for
the purpose of testing his statements.
Mr. C. BRUCE ridiculed Captain Warner's invention
as one of the chimeric fancies of the age, and he then
proceeded to a consideration of the policy of the Go-
vernment with respect to the expenditure. The navy
estimates he defended, and expressed his intention of
supporting the vote.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM did not consider it expedient
to follow the Hon. Gentleman in expatiating on the
disputed ground of the Ministerial policy respecting the
maintenance of protection, the suppression of the slave
trade, and the sugar duties ; but, in reply to the inter-
rogatory of the Honourable Member fur Cockermouth,
put to the Army, Ordnance, and Navy Committee, with
the view of ascertaining their intention as to an exami-
nation of Captain Warner and his invention, he denied
that any discourtesy had been either intended or offered
to that gentleman by the Noble Lord the Chairman of
the Committee. The Committee was appointed to con-
sider whether any saving could be effected in the army,
navy, and ordnance expenditure; and he thought he
might tell his Honourable Friend, that the Com-
mittee, constituted as it was of nearly all non-pro-
fessional men, did not deem it their duty to investi-
gate the subject of Captain Warner's claim. The
noble Lord, he fancied, had already, on more occasions
than one, answered this question. He (Sir James
Graham) regretted that this discussion on the im-
portant subject of voting supplies for the mainte-
nance of an efficiatat navy should appear to degene•
rate into matter Gt detail. He thought the decision to
which the House night come was fraught with great and
mighty consequences, and he hoped that the introduction
of matters of minor importance into the discussion
would not draw the attention of Hon. Gentleman from
the real question bt fore the House.—(llear.) When he
came down to the House he confessed he did not do so
prepared to be put upon his defence, as he little expected
that his, Hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty
would have characterised the administration of the
Admiralty during the years from 1831 to 1834, at which
time he (Sir James Graham) was at the head of it, as
he had done. His Honourable Friend had said that,
when.he left the Admiralty Board at that time, the
naval arsenals and dockyards were, in a great measure,
left unprovided for, and he confessed that for some time
he thought that the lion. Gentleman had allowed the
expression to drop from him in an unguarded manner ;
but as he had repeated it several times over, no doubt
was left ultimately as to his sincerity in making the
assertion. Now, at that time, it ho recollected
rightly, his lion. Friend was a Member in
the House, and being so, he could not fail
to recollect that, when at that time these accusations
were made against him (Sir James Graham), as head of
the. Admiralty Board under Earl Grey's Government,
he made a statement in answer to the accusations pre-
ferred, which, so far as the opinion of the House could
be ascertained, disposed of the subject most satisfacto-
rily.—(Hear, hear.) The present colleagues of his lion.
Friend were perfectly satisfied with his explanation.
The Noble Lord at the head of the present Government
was so, and he could not help feeling astonished that
his Hon. Friend should have, at the present time, at all
adverted to the subject. At that time he showed most
satisfactorily that, with respect to all articles which
were of an imperishable nature, and which did not
become useless by time, he had added considerably to
the number, and thereby increased the strength and
efficiency of that branch of the service, while he
admitted that a reduction had been made in all
articles required for the service
,of a perishable
nature, on the ground that unless the exigencies of
the service at the time actually required these, there
was no use of storing them up, as from being so for
any length of time, they became unfit for use, so that
the money expended on them was as much money
thrown away.—(Hear, hear.) ,At that time then, as he
had stated, he satisfied the House on that point. Since
then he had not looked much into naval matters, and he
did not wish to pursue.that subject, referred to by his
Hon. Friend, any further, although he could satisfy the.
House now as he did then, that the charge, in 1834, of
leaving their dockyards and arsenals deficient of stores,
was not true.—(Hear, hear.) In regard to the estimates
before the House, he could not help thinking that, al-
though his Hon. Friend; had submitted it as a peace
ritimate, his mode of enforcing it was somewhat pug-

nacious—(Hear, hear, and laughter)--for while he had '
attached him in the manner he had alluded to, he had
at the same time not only proposed the nevy estimates
for the present year, but he had actually proposed those
for the ensuing year, and had in consequence, cut off all
use for any inquiry into the navy estimates, by the Co-
mmittee appointed for that purpose. The Hon. Gentle-
man had told the House. on the authority of Lord Auck-
land, that on the navy estimates for the ensuing years
1849 50, a saving of 600,0001. could be effected, and
that being the ease, what was the use of any Committee
investigating into the subject, as the whole matter of
effecting a saving in these estimates lay with the Go-
vernment, and unless the Government carried such out,
it would never be done. Therefore, if Government
was to abide by the estimate for the pi esent year, and
said that no saving could be effected, and that next year
a saving would be effected to the amount he had stated,
but to no greater or less extent, he must say, if such
was the determination of the Government, he for one
should utterly despond of any good result flowing from
any investigation of a Committee of that House into
the subject of these estimates.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman had told the House that he had placed this
question of naval expenditure upon the same footing as
it had been placed by the late and previous Governments.
He had told them that Sir Robert Peel's Government,
from 1841 up to 1846, had year after year asked for and
obtained an increase in these estimates, and had argued
that if, in the then circumstances of the country, an in-
crease in these estimates was allowed, much more now,
in the present circumstances of the country, ought their -
expenditure in that respect to be progressive.—(Hear,
hear.) He had also contended that if the Government of
Lord Grey required at one period to increase their esti-
mates, much more now, in the altered circumstances of
the country, was the present Government justified in
doing so. Let the House, however, refer to the facts
of the case. When Sir Robert Peel's Government came
into power, in 1841, they found the China war com-
menced—imperfectly commenced—" dragging its slow
length along"—not likely soon to be concluded—and
the Government took active and immediate measures to
bring it to a conclusion; and he was happy to say that
these had the effect of doing so in the most satisfactory
manner. But these measures were attended with great
expense, which necessarily caused an addition to the
expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) So much then for the
estimates of 1842. In regard to 1844, the middle
year of the Right Honourable Baronet's Government, it
was well known that during that year a very serious
misunderstanding took place between the Government of
this country and the French Government in regard to
Otaheite, so that it was found necessary to keep up their
naval force, and in some degree to augment it, in
case of an outbreak. Then, in regard to the esti-
mates of 1846 being the highest naval estimates which
the Government of Sir Robert reel moved far, were
there no circumstances which led to an increase being
then demanded? Why, he could state to the House
that the very last official act of his Right Hon. Friend,
when he brought his statement, after giving in his re-
signation to her Majesty, was the laying upon the table
documents to satisfy the House that the long-pending
dispute between this country and the United States ct
America, with respect to the Oregon territory, had been
finally and satisfactorily settled.—(Cheers.) So long
as that dispute was pending the country was obliged to
keep up a large naval force; and especially in the year
1846, when it was feared that the dispute would give rise
to an outbreak between the two countries; anti in fact
as regarded all naval estimates, the amount was to be
judged of from the circumstances of the times in which
they were voted, and from the just amount of force which
the exigencies of those times required. That then had
brought him to the circumstances in which they were at
present placed, and to the consideration of the estimate
before the House. No doubt, in regard to these, her
Majesty's Government was involved in considerable
difficulty, and, from the nature of events they;had to deal
with, were obliged to observe much caution and reserve,
for, in fact, the voting those estimates from year
to year did resolve itself more or less into a vote
of confidence in the Government of the day.—(Hear,
hear, and cheers.) The Noble Lord at the head of the
Government, when he first introduced the subject of
these estimates to the notice of the House, did in the
most manly, plain, and candid manner open up to the
House the peculiar circumstances in which the country
was then placed, and the statement of them made by the
Noble Lord confirmed him in the belief' that the naval
force sought for by the Noble Lord was net larger than
the safety and the interest of the country demanded.—
(Hear, hear.) That was the view he took at the time
the Noble Lord made his statement, and he, as an indi-
vidual Member of the House, would exercise his privilege
of stating his individual opinion in regard to those cir-
cumstances as they then stood, although Government
might, from matters of policy, be deterred from doing
so in so detailed a manner. He concurred that a con-
tinental power--France, for instance—which had a
large standing army, was absolutely necessary for the
safety of the State, and that the fact of such powers
keeping up large standing armies was not in the least
calculated to excite jealousy on the part of Great Britain.
—(Hear, hear.) On the other hand, any great naval
preparations on the part of France, she not having many
colonies to guard or to protect, and having no use for
any great display of naval power, was calculated to have
a different tendency; and, therefore, any great naval ex-
penditure on the part of that country, whether in regard
to ships, the construction of ports, or of defences in the
Channel, would not appenr a defensive policy. For him-
self, he could not fail to regard it as an offensive policy,
hell calculated not only to excite the jealously of Go-
vernment, but to excite the patriotism of the representa-
tives of the people in that House.—(Cheers.) He con-
fessed that the misunderstanding in 1844 which arose
between France and this country was greatly aggravated
by the publication of a pamphlet, on the steam marine
of France, by one of the sons of the late Rine of that
country, and the suggestions thrown out in which were
adopted for the most part by the French Government.
At that time immense naval preparations were made by
France. War-steamers innumerable were built,
and a large number of line-of-battle ships,
while the harbours and defences along the
Channel were extensively repaired and strengthened.—
( Hear, hear.) Now, in such circumstances as that, he
did think Government would have been neglecting its
duty, and would have been guilty of risking the honour
and the independence of this country if they had failed
to protest against this reckless expenditure, and the ex-
tensive display of naval power on the part of France.—
(Loud cheers.) In a time of profound peace, it that
system was persisted in on the part of France, he could
not see how some preparation was not to be made on the
part of this country, in order to meet it.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had
stated the exact case. He had said that were a war
arising between the two countries, a new element must
be introduced to it, in consequence of the number of war
steamers now afloat. France had not only prepared a
large number of steam-vessels, which gave her
extensive means of communication, with which she
could sweep the Channel, and convey troops; but she
had to all her principal ports in the Channel, lines
of railway, communicating with the interior of the
country, where she had a large standing army stationed,
and which could by such means, if called on to act, be
conveyed to this country with the least possible delay.
—tHear, hear.) They must recollect also that a country
acting on the offensive had an opportunity of concentrat-
ing its forces, which a country acting on the defensive
had not, as the latter must dispose of its forces so as to
be prepared for an attack on those points which it con-
oeived the enemy was most likely to operate against ;
and as it was on the defence that Britain always stood,
he was satisfied that were France to attempt an attack
on this country, the battle of the national dependence
would not be fought in the British Channel by their
ships of war, but on the soil of their own country.—
(Hear, hear.) lie did, therefore, think that the course
proposed by the Noble Lord, at the time it was proposed,
was the one which circumstances required should be
followed.—(Hear.) lie would not now go into a discus.
sion as to the altered circumstances which had since
taken place.—(Hear.) His prayer was that the peace
of the world might be maintained.—(Hear.) His be-
lief was, that by the power of British influence it would
be maintained; but he would say this, that if it was con-
sidered unwise a month ago to diminish the naval force,
this was not the time that the right arm of their strength
Ought to be paralysed or shortened in the least degree.—
(Cheers.) He had said thus much with regard to the
number of men, though, with regard to the amount of
the estimates, he considered that after due consideration
a slight reduction might be made.—(Hear, hear.) If
these estimates were submitted to a full investigation he
was certain that, without diminishing a man, a reduction
could be made in them. He should continue to do his
duty on the Committee which had been ap-
pointed for the consideration of them, and he was
sure that Committee would endeavour to reduce not only
the navy, but also the army estimates; and he was more
sanguine than his Hon. Friend the Secretary to the Ad-
miralty as to the saving they would be enabled to effect.
That saving must, however, be carried out by the
Government, and he had no doubt but that
the Government would do their best to carry
out any saving the Committee might point out as
likely to be effected. In regard to the distribution
of their naval force, the squadron in the Tages•had been
much talked of; and in regard to that station, he could
not help stating a fact which, if coming from himself,
might be of little consequence, but coming from the au-
thority it did, he considered it to be worthy of all re-
spect. Ho well remembered Sir Thomas Hardy telling
him, as the result of observations and surveys made by
himself and Lord Nelson, that the Tagus was regarded
in this country as the most important naval station in
Europe.--(Cheers.) That for all purposes of defence it
was far superior to the Cove of Cork, for while on the
one side it commanded the Gut of Gibraltar, on the other
it jutted out to the west, and protected their West India
islands, while it rendered the chops of the Channel
almost invulnerable.—(llear, hear.) No station was
better available fur Mediterranean or Channel service,
and therefore it ought never to be without a squadron
stationed ie it. With respect to the squadron on the
coast of Africa, he thought that was a question which
might deserve consideration.—(Hear, hear.) There
was also a considerable force in the River plate, and
iii both of these reductions might be made, but they
could not be so all at once. It required time to do so,
and he had no doubt but, in the course of the year, Go-
vernment might make some safe reductions, without at
all endangering the efficiency of the force.—(Hear,
hear.) While, therefore, upon the whole, he thought
that, in the course of some time, a reduction might be
made in the estimates, he could not at present consent
to the reduction of a single man.—(Cheers.)
Mr. WARD explained that, in the remarks he made,
he had not the least intention of superseding the labours
of the Committee of which the Right Hon. Baronet was
so efficient a member ; and he was sure Government
would do their best to carry out any suggestions the
Committee might make to them.—(Hear, hoar.)
Lord SEYMOUR said he was as anxious to keep down
expenditure as any one, but he thought this was not the

ments.

time to make any reduction in the army or navy depart-

--- ViscountlNGEsTrE and Mr. COBDEN rose at the same
time. There were loud calls for the latter, but he gave
way to
Viscount INGESTRE, who said, as he belonged to
the profession which was under the discussion of the
House, he did not like to give a silent vote on the sub-
ject. The question they had to consider was not one of
detail, but of national policy as to whether they were
to retain intact that great arm of their power, the navy.
He thought no reduction ought to take place, and, not-
withstanding the depression of the country at the pre-
sent time, he was sure the country would not submit to
any reduction considering the commotions which were
taking place throughout, Europe.—(Hear.) He espe-
cially advised the Government, if they meant to main
tain the navy in an efficient state, that they should not
tamper with the navigation laws. The mercantile ma-
rine was the source upon which we must always mainly
depend for the proper manning of the navy.—(Hear,
hear.) With respect to the inventions of Captain War-
ner, he had upon full investigation come to the con-
clusion that the adoption of these inventions would not
only be a saving of a great deal of money, but prevent
the effusion of a vast deal of bloodshed. He believed
that if the question was fairly inquired into this would
be found to be the case. He challenged any man in
the House or the country to say that the destruction
of the ship at Brighton was not conducted fairly and
honourably, and that, of course, similar results could not
in future rbe easily produced.—(Cheers, and " Oh.")
His Lordship proceeded to read a letter from Captain
Warner, stating his readiness to be examined on oath
before a Committee of the House, and would undertake
to show how a saving of upwards of 3,000,0001. might
be effected in the navy alone.--(A laugh.) That letter
showed how anxious that individual was for a fair in-
vestigation, and he should feel himself wanting in his
duty if he did not manfully support a man who he be-
lieved could render serious benefits to his country. The
Noble Lord, after expressing his determination to sup-
port the Government in its measures to preserve the
force necessary for the security of property and the
maintenance of our free institutions, said, before he sat
down, he must notiee the remarks of the Hon. Member
for the West Riding, as to the distribution of the navy
and the conduct of the officers. He trusted the lion.
Member had not been correctly reported, as respected
the officers, who were admitted by all who knew them,
and even by that consistent politician who had intro-
duced this motion, to do their duty manfully and faith-
fully to their country.—(Hear.)
Mr. COBDEN entered his protest against the doc-
trine laid down by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Ripon, a doctrine which had been asserted on a
former night by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth—that the Executive Government was alone
responsible to the country for the amount of the army
and navy estimates. The House had more than once
heard taunts from the Government, when the expendi-
ture had been complained of, that it was by their votes
alone that the Ministry had been enabled to incur so
large an amount of expenditure; and when the Ministry
were called to account for the extravagant demands
which they made upon the public purse; they threw the
responsibility of having incurred those demands upon
the House. But now that the Right Hon. Barnet the
Member for Ripon desired to find an excuse for the vote
he was about to give, he transferred the responsibility
from the House to the Executive Government. If that
doctrine was correct. it the Ministry alone were respon-
sible for the amount of the estimates, the doors of that
House would at once be shut and every Member might go
home for any use he was there. He also protested against
another of the Right Hon. Baronet's dogmas, that the Par-
liament had no right to know the reason which the Go-
vernment had for concealing the real state of affairs. (Oh!)
If there were secrets,: let the House know what they
were.—(Laughter, and hear.) He wished to be informed
of the reasons why the House was called upon to vote
large sums of money; and so far from thinking secresy
any advantage, or that any good resulted from leaving
so much power in the hands of the Foreign Secretary,
he was:of opinion that it would bo the wisest plan to let
all the world know what England was doing in this re-
spect. The daily press prevented there being any great
amount of secresy in foreign affairs, and it was in vain
to attempt to involve them in mystery.—(Hear, hear.)
But there were always plenty of reasons to be had when
an increase of expense was to be justified. In the
year 1837 the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Halifax told the House that Russia was about to in-
vade England, and that an increase in the navy esti-
mates was necessary. The increase was voted, and
then no more was heard of Russian invasion. In 1840,
the miserable affair of Syria was urged as the plea for
increased naval expenditure. In 1842, China formed a
fresh pretext for the extravagance of the Government;
and, in 1846, an additional vote was asked for the navy on
the plea that America was to be apprehended. Ho
passed over the miserable pretext afford by the affair of
Otaheite, in which Mr. Pritchard was involved. But
whatever was the amount of increase in the expenditure
there were always plenty of reasons to justify it. What he
wished to draw attention to was, that let the House once
give its assent to an increase of expenditure, there was
never any effort made to reduce that excess to the former
state of affairs. There was now no danger to be appre-
hended anywhere.—(" Oh, oh.") The House ought to
bear in mind that at the time the estimates now before
them were framed there had been not the smallest reason
for apprehending that a revolution would break out in
France, or that Louis Philippe would not be on the
French throne. On the former occasion the Montpen-
sier marriage' and a pamphlet issued by one of the sons
of the French King had been urged as reasons for appre-
hending danger ; but now there existed no such reasons,
nor could any fear be entertained of an invasion on the
part of the Prince de Joinville. And yet, notwithstand
ing the groundlessness of the former excesses, it was
now urged—es if merely to show that an excuse could
never be wanting—that France might invade England,
and therefore preparations for defence must be made.
France had a great deal too much to do at home to be
able to entertain any such designs as were attributed to
her. But another reason for maintaining the present
rate of naval expenditure was that the British ships of
war were indispensable for the protection of the com-
merce of England in foreign countries. In what man-
ner did the British navy protect the commerce of
England? The ships of war never carried on any
commerce—nor was the commerce of the Mediterra-
nean carried on by English merchants. The chief
merchants engaged in the commerce of Europe were
Greeks, Germans, and Italians. ' Ho would prove
this fact by moving for returns from the British
consuls in the Mediterranean Sea and on the
coast of Portugal, showing the number of English
merchants engaged in commerce in those parts. Those
returns would incontestably prove that the English
merchants were few in number, and that they were daily
diminishing and giving place to others. But that would
not show that the amount of exports from England
diminished along with the number of English merchants.
The goods exported to the Mediterranean and Portugal
were consigned to foreign merchants, to Greeks, Ger-
mans, and Swiss—all of whom carried on their transac-
tions without the protection of a naval force.—((fear,
hear.) Could it be pretended that the British navy was
required in order to protect that species of commerce;
or, on the other hand, was it pretended that British ships
of war were necessary to put down piracy. Why, steam
had done that for pirates which the mail cone les for-
merly effected in the cases of highwaymen.—(" Oh," and
" No.") He maintained that there were no pirates
in the Mediterranean.—(" Oh, oh.") There were still
to be found prahus in the Eastern seas, but no pirates
were to be found in the Mediterranean, and yet a naval
force was stationed there, the expenditure of which was
greater than the profits of the manufactures and the
whole amount of the freights of the British ships en-
gaged in trade, put together.—(Oh, oh.) So much for
the commercial side of the question. With respect to
political reasons advanced for maintaining the naval
forces, the House was constantly told that it was indis-
pensable for England to place herself upon a level with
all other foreign powers, in so far as her navy was con-
cerned. Now, the only powers that Englandcould regard
as being on the same level with herself in a naval point
of view were France and America, and in adverting to
this subject he must express his regret at the tone of the
speech made by the Right Hon. Baronet the Member foe'
Ripon. He examined a file of the Moniteur, in
order to ascertain what had been said in the French
Chamber respecting the British navy. It might be all
eery well for Members of that House to talk compla-
cently of the naval supremacy of Great Britain, but was
it not to be expected that in the teeth of such language
France and America should also put forward their claims
to be ranked as high as England? In the reports of the
speeches contained in the Monideur of 1846, on the sub-
ject of the proposed increase of the French navy, when
the report of the Committee appointed to examine into
the question was brought before the Chamber, the Mi-
nister had already augmented the original estimates, and
even that augmentation did not equal the demands of
the Deputies, and 93,000,000 francs wore wadded to the
eesimate. What were the arguments urged in defence
of this augmentation?—Monsieur Thiers, in his speech
1 on the occasion, delivered on the 15th of April, 1846,
said:—
" We pay England the compliment of thinking of her,
and her only, when we discuss the question of our navy;
we do not trouble ourselves about the fleets which sail
out of Trieste or Venice; we think only of the ships
which leave Plymouth or Portsmouth. Now, what are
the naval forces of England? It is generally said that
when she has put forth her greatest strength, they have
amounted to 100 vessels of the line. If you examine
the facts you will find that she has never had 100 vessels
out of port; she has had but 80. But on a future occa-
sion I think she would have more—perhaps 100. . . ,
When you speak of 36 ships in the face of 80 or 100 it
seems to me a farce. It is true the Minister has raised
the proposition to 44; but even ho can hardly bo
serious. . . . If he had said France will aim at
having 60 ships I should have understood him. I think,
that with 60 vessels against a nation with 80 or 100, but
with a mech larger space to cover, it would be possible
for us to maintain an honourable struggle."
One feature of the debate from which he quoted was,
that even the most exalted of the French orators never
assumed for one moment that France could pretend to be
able to put herself upon an equality with England in so
far as her naval power was concerned. To demonstrate
this, be would quote the observations made by another
of the Deputies on the same day that M. Thiers had
made his speech, namely the 13th of April, 1846. The
speaker was Monsieur Ducos, who said:—
" England, which we may be permitted to view, if
not as a model, at least as a guide, in spite of the 112
vessels of war of from 70 to 120 guns which she keeps
afloat, in spite of the immense development which she
has given to her steam navy, England stiil continues to
construct more vessels of the largest dimensions. At
this moment she has upon the stocks 13 ships of from
70 toll2o guns, besides a considerable number of frigates
calculated to carry a powerful artillery. * * * God
forbid, gentlemen, that I should so:far allow myself to be
led away u to demand from Frahce the sacrifices of men

and money necessary for the creation of a fleet equal in
force to that of England. I know that we are not like
Great Britain, exclusively a maritime power; but I think
I am within the limits of a wise policy in begging the
Chamber not to allow itself to be carried away by pros-
pects which, however pleasing, may be deceptive, and are
assuredly very far distant. I introat it not to reduce the
number of our vessels whilst England preserves hers,
and even augments the number."
And the same sentiments were expressed by Mons.
Hernoux, who, on the part of the Committee, in opposi-
tion to the increase of the armaments, said:
" In the great lottery of force and of chance, on which
side will the ad►antage rest?-0n the side of the most
numerous. Now, can we pretend to establish a navy as
numerous as that of England? If to-morrow, we had
100 vessels, the day after, England would have 200.' '
Mona. de Lamartine also spoke during the debate, and
he would read an extract from the report contained in
the Illonitcur of that distinguished person's speech :
" England has not less than 700 vessels of war, with
which she could cover the two oceans, at the command
of her Admiralty. Everybody knows that as respects
those steamers,;with which we think ourselves suffi-
ciently armed in adding 38 to our 72, England has 500
merchant steam-boats which she could, in case of war,
arm and let loose upon the ocean. . . . I confess
that to-day for the first time in my life I have thought
with susceptibility, I had almost said with jealousy, of
England. Yes, at the moment when, after three days'
debate, R e are coming to this great vote, I say to myself
and I say to my colleagues, it is proposed to diminish
the budget of the navy, that budget which in all ages
has been deemed to belong to the very nature and desti-
nies of France—it is proposed not merely to weaken,
but to paralyse the only army with which we might
perhaps one
.day have to encounter England upon the
ocean."
The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield (Mr.
Ward) would perhaps recollect that a few years ago the
Admiralty had given ordors to cut down some line-of-
battle ships, in order to convert them into coast-guard
ships. In a report which was made upon this sub-
ject by the Baron Charles Dupin, he (Mr. Cobden)
found the following observations addressed by that
gentleman to the French Chamber of Peers on the 15th
of June, 1846. After giving a detailed account of a
plan determined upon by the British Government for
converting four line-of-battle ships, and four frigates
into steam-ships carrying 312 guns and bombs of the
largest calibre, the Baron concluded with the following
observations : . _

"If we compare this destructive force with the most
formidable batteries ever employed by armies on land
to burn fortified towns or batter down buildings, we
shall know what to think of an-armament got up under
the inoffensive and defensive designation of steam coast-
guard vessels. It is for France an indispensable neces-
sity to complete an arnament of the same kind and of
equal force, so that we may have nothing to fear for the
future, should it so happen that we have a misunder-
standing with England."
He would now come to a part of the question more im-
mediately interesting to the House. On the 26th of
February, 1847, the Hon. Member for Sheffield brought
the naval estimates under the consideration of the
House, and, after quoting from the report of the Minister
of Marine is France, made in 1846, recommending the
building of new ships, he said :
" The great object of this increased expenditure was,
that France might increase the number of her ships
from 359, which they were in 1846, to 390, which was
what they intended to be. Now, he found no fault with
France for these things. France did what she thought
right and necessary for the maintenance of her position.
She set us, in many respects, a noble example. He ad-
mired the wise and systematic liberality with which her
great naval works had been carried on from year to
year till she had compensated herself for the great na-
tural disadvantages under which she laboured along the
whole coast of the Channel."
He then went into particulars of the magnificent works
going on at Dunkirk, Havre, Calais, &c., described the
dockyard at Cherbourg, containing 231 acres and 16
building slips, and quoted the case of Brest, whose
smithy contained 127 fires, whilst that at Portsmouth
had only 48. The Hon. Member wound up his state-
ment by stating :
" These facts, it appeared to him, ought to be a lesson
to us. They imposed a very
.heavy responsibility on
those who were in power in this country. It behoved
them to take care, by the proper development of our
resources in times of peace, to prevent the balance of
power being changed in time of war."
—(Hear, hear.) Now if any proof were wanting that
England had led the way step by step to the enormous
augmentation of the naval forces of France, it would be
found in the fact that the English Government had sub-
sidised the ship-builders in order to get them to
construct steamers for the ostensible purposes of form-
ing a line of communication with America, and
these vessels were to be constructed upon such plans
and scale as to enable the Government to take them
and convert them into war steamers in the event of a
war.—(oh! and hear, hear.) He had the statement of
the Hon. Member for Sheffield as a guarantee of the
assertion which he had made. The steamer's employed
on Cunard's line, and those also engaged in the trans-
mission of the 'West India mails, were all of them con-
structed upon the principles laid down by the Hon.
Member in his former statement, and since that plan
had been adopted by England, France had followed it,
and the President of the United States of America had
done the same thing, by advancing the sum of 200,000
dollars for the purpose of constructing steam war-
packets. If the matter was not so serious in itself,
there was enough to make him laugh at the imbecility
of foreign nations. He could not but draw the conclu-
sion, from all the facts he had stated, that there was
no desire in high quarters to diminish the war
expenditure of the nation.—(Oh, and hear, hear.)
The allusion made by the Hon. Member for Sheffield to
America was not a fortunate one. The United States
had existed as an independent power for the period of
sixty-seven years, and during that time they had been
engaged for four years in a war. The American naval
estimates, in 1845, were 1,200,000/., or 6,000,000 dollars
—one-half or two-thirds of the naval estimates of Great
Britain. What was the whole amount of the estimates
of the American Cabinet during the years in which they
e ere engaged in. war ? Only 11,000,000 L, and this sum
included the military and naval expenditure, the salary
of the President, and the allowances made to all the
foreign ambassadors, as well as every other charge. The
whole did not amount to two-thirds of the cost of the
establishment and civil list of Great Britain during a time
of profound peace. The Noble Lord the Member for
Staffordshire had taunted him (Mr. Cobden) with some
observations which had fallen from him on a former occa-
sion in another place. He must admit that he had been
correctly reported on the occasion referred to. He did
not meats to be offensive to any persons when he said
that Valetta was a skulking hole for the navy, and the
Noble Lord would understand that this observation was
exclusively meant for the nauticals. But he must state
that he had risited Malta at two different periods of the
year, in March and in November, and ho had on both
occasions observed a vast assemblage of ships and sailors
without, at the same tirn,e observing any corresponding
advantage which they conferred. He had been told that
drunkenness prevailed amongst the sailors. He had
himself seen the Jack Tars galloping round the island
upon asses.—(Laughter.) The Hon. and Gallant
Member for Tamworth complained that he had misre-
presented these crews and their officers, because he had
stated that there sea,
a greater amount of
idleness and demoralisation exhibited on board
ships of war than could be seen in the same space any-
where else on the face of the earth. He repeated his
assertion, and contended that you could not have
800 or 1,000 men on board a 120-gun ship for any
length of time without their becoming demoralised and
idle.—(lsese, hear.) Suppose you had a factory, with
1,000 hands coming in every morning and going away
in the evening, without a wheel being turned or spindle
set in motion, how long would they remain without be-
coming demoralised! The occupation of our fleets in
then
the Mediterranean is really this. They lay up in ordi-
nary in winter, and in summer they went on an excur-
sion round Sicily, sometimes as far as Athens, and some-
times to Smyrna, coming back after a cruise of six
months to Valetta to lay up. The officers went to this
clubs, or on leave to Sicily, while the lieutenants and
men left on board were put to their wits' end to find
something to do. They hauled up the sails, then pulled
them down, and that, with scrubbing the decks, formed
the ordinary routine of Mediterranean duty. He begged
Hon. Members who were discontented with his state-
ments not to lose their time taunting him, but to con-
tradict his facts. Let them disprove what he raid,
and to enable there to do so, let them look to their navy
list, and see where the ships were stationed in Decem-
ber, January, and February, and where in May, June,
and July. Now, with regard to the force in the Tagus,
the Right Hon. Baronet the, Member for Ripon had
defended it by quoting Nelsons opinion as to the eligi-
bility of the station. He was willing to take that opinion
for what it was worth, but had the squadron lately
stationed there been intended for the West Indies? He
had understood they were sent there by our Foreign
Minister, to be placed at the disposal of the Queen of
Portugal.—(Hear, hear.) And there it would be seen,
by the return for which be bad moved, they had lain
month after month doing nothing. Could anything be
more demoralising, in such a climate and close to such
a city?—(Hear, hear.) Those who had been in Lisbon
would admit that it was not the
.purest of all spots
in which to locate 'five thousand idle men.—(Hear,
hear.) So far from there being any exaggeration in
was a current joke
his statements, he believed there
among the sailors, that one of the line-of-battle ships
bad gone aground on the beef bones which had been
thrown over her side.—(Laughter.) Now, he contended
that we had no right to tax the artisans and people of this
country who consumed the sugar, and coffee, and tea, for
the purpose of sending a fleet larger
, than the whole of
the American navy, to lie in the Tagus, at the disposal
of the Queen of Portugal, and to do more harm than
good. It might have been good to send the fleet there.
lie took the argument for what it was worth; but if it
was worth anything, why
had the fleet been so suddenly
withdrawn? Tre sometimes fancied
.that the broadside
be had fired from the free trade hall in Manchester, had
dispersed them.—(Laughter.) (An Hon. Member,
"They're in Cork.") Well, he hoped they were better
.
employed than they had been n Portugal. He now
came to this important question; they were going
to vote 7,500,000/. us was perfectly prepared
for it, he believed that for that large estimate Govern-
ment was no more to blame than the electors or the
country.—(Hear, hear.) lie would be very candid,
be had been the first to raise an outcry against it in
November last, end he was censured in all quarters for
his conduct. He would do Ministers the justice to say,
that he was censured on all hands, in the newspapers,
among public men,
and everywhere he was told that
he was wrong in opposing increased armaments. But
the very parties who had so censured him, were the
very men, when the Ministers brought in their Bill, to
turn sharp round and call them a profligate Ministry.
Ia his opluicu Ministers had been exceedingly