The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-17 00:00:00

with which the treaty was signed.—(Hear, hear.) As 1 Viscount PALMERSTOI i said that the en mmuri
to the transactions last year in Portugal, there a civil ' don made from Baron Wesse Iffeerg was in his capacity of
' ea-
war, which threatened to be of long duration, had been . Minister of Foreign Affairs f ar the EmperorofAustria,
put an end to; and though he did not pretend to say that 1 and not as acting under the a uthority of the Vicar of the
everything there had since gone on exactly as her Ma- German empire. As to the b econdest
forion, the
him to
House •
jesty's Government had a right to expect, yet at all must see that it would be hi; thly improper
events peace had been maintained in Portugal, while all ' enter into details of the commu mications which had taken •
Europe had been convulsed. He was not willing further place between himself and they representatives of other
to detain the House on these matters; he had given ' Governments.
such answers as he felt himself at liberty to supply, and ! The vote was then agreed to, as were the followin a
he hoped the House would think he had done as much 17,4611. for the salaries and expenses of the Colonial .
as was consistent with his duty.—(Hear.) , Department.
Mr. BANKES thought that one of the Noble Lord's 1 29,000/. for the salaries and expenses of the department
replies furnished one ground against a portion of the 1 of the Board of Trade.
vote now before the Committee, for the Noble Lord had ! On the next vote, 1,500/. as the probable expenses in
shown that this country could go on as well with only i the office of the Lord Privy Seal,
consuls to represent her abroad as she could with the I Mr. OSBORNE asked why the word "probable" was
more costly representatives—ambassadors. introduced in this estimate and not in any of the others.
Lord G. BENTINCK said that though this was the The Committee on the Miscellaneous Estimates did not
16th day of August he should offer no apology for pre- appear to have taken any evidence with respect to this
stinting a few observations on the foreign policy of this office, which, he suspected, was almost useless. Bad the
I n
country, especially as the vote under consideration was word " probable"introducede?
because it. ;as in con-
to defray the expenses of the Foreign-office. He appre- I tern plation to abolish the office
hentled that no more fitting or constitutional occasion I Mr. PARKER said the establishment of the privy
seal
for commenting upon the foreign policy of the nation was paid out of the fines received in the office, as far as
could be selected. Though the Hon. and Gallant Mem- they went.
her for Westminster (Sir D. L. Evans) had read Hon. Mr. OSBORNE said he was not speaking of the es-
Members a lecture, and had denounced the discretion of tablishment, but of the office itself.
those who ventured observations on foreign policy, he '.‘lr. PARKER was understood to say that a Com 7
presumed they were not to be restricted to the internal mittee appointed by the Treasury was now sitting to in-
concerns of the country, and forbidden to go beyond the
eqiiiiiieree.inAiitt mode of conducting the business of the
affair of Kennington-common, but had a right to exer- present a very minute and elaborate series of
processes wascirried
muchon. in that office with respect to
cise the special duty of keeping a watch on a department
traehwas lost. Great improve-
which entailed upon the country so very large an ex- atenis, by which
pergliture.—(Hear, hear.) He could well remember how pmeats might be mad
in former days the lion, and Gallant Member had been alteration in the duties of
the office under made,
eanconsideration of the Committee ;
accustomed to declare against" the despots of the north the only difficulty was that there were certain parties
of Europe," when he himself was about to set out on a who were entitledtofees.
sort of buccaneering expedition to Spain; but now he
Colonel SIBTHORP charged the Government with
would debar others from uttering a word on the subject
iniquity in hurrying on the estimates. He would have.
of the foreign relations of this kingdom. Moore, some a report of all the public servants who were at work ;-
twenty years ago, had written, for idle men did no good.—(Laughter.) He should like
As bees on flowers alighting cease their hum.
to have a return of the number of days on which the
So, when in places sitting, Whigs grew dumb.
Lord P
And he (Lord G. Bentinck) thought that the Hon. and rivy Seal had attended to his office, where he had
Gallant Member sought to realise the poet's stanza.— been for the last twelve months, and what he had been
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) But he (Lord G. Bentinck) doing abroad. He was for paying working men and not
wanted to know whether the request made by Austria absentees, and would have the Lord Privy Seal's salary
for the mediation of this country had not been made so proportionally reduced.
far back as ten weeks ago, at a time when the Austrian Mr. OSBORNE had ao objection to offer to the Lord
riv Seal nar Noe L
Government was in its hour of need and difficulty—
h P made made abei mog st btroiumphantad, for he
defencethought the
bl
nd of his couctord.
when the whole of Europe was in combustion—when
He only wished to know why the wording of the esti-
the Emperor had been driven from his own capital and
forced to Innspruck—when the veteran General mate was different from the others.
Radetzky had been driven with his troops from Milan? Mr. PARKER said he only spoke from memory, but
Was not this the precise time when the good offices and he had no doubt the words were the same as had been
mediation of Great Britain were sued for by the used on former occasions.
Austrian Government, and refused by the Noble Colonel SIBTHORP said a man in office ought to be
Lord opposite (Lord Palmerston)? He wanted also able to say at once what was the fact; if he could not
Co know whether the mediation asked for on that answer everything he was good for nothing.—(Laughter.)
There was a general disposition to smuggle everything
occasion had not been demanded, first by Baron Kohler,
and afterwards by Count Dietrichstein, who suc-
through.
ceeded him ; or whether the request had come
Lord J. RUSSELL said the estimate was the same as
t y there office.
from the Germanic Diet at Frankfort ? These ques-
last
ear,lf fees and
did not was no inten
amount to 3,tion to
itabolish theoool., would be made
tions he should like to have answered before the vote for
up out of the vote.
the Foreign-office was agreed to. Was the request made
The vote was than agreed to.
before or after the Noble Lord had announced that he
On the next vote, 15,0001. for the office of Paymaster-
had determined to join with France in the mediation ?
G, idi
because if the Noble Lord had refused his friendly
cheq eneraluer-bll including the salaries and expenses of the Ex-
-office.
offices of mediation in the time of Austria's need and
Dr. BOWRING said this office was one of the best
difficulty, the Noble Lord had no right to claim his pre-
conducted of the public departments; all the books
vilege to interfere now that Austria by her own intrinsic
were regularly balanced every year. He wished to ask
efforts had vindicated her rights and her authority, and
whether, after the House had affirmed the principle of
had driven her rash and saucy invader from Lombardy
having all payments out of the revenue to pass through
into his own country. The Emperor of Austria might
now truly say to this country, " I have myself vindicated the House, the Government was prepared to adopt the
my own rights and authority—l will not now admit you principle, as the only security for a proper application of
into the arbitration to which you were invited, but in the revenue?
which ten weeks ago you refused to take part." The The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
King of Sardinia having thought fit to invade the should endeavour gradually to carry out that principle,
dominions of the Emperor of Austria, the latter had as far as it could be applied to the public business,
a right to chastise the invader, and all the laws of though he did net admit what the Hon. Gentleman had
nations and war forbade interference between them. The stated, that it was the only means of obtaining security
Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne) had stated for the proper application of the revenue.
that he did not intend to oppose the vote of 2,0001. to After a few words from Colonel Sibthorp, Mr. Hume,
defray the expenses of Lord Minto's mission, on the and Mr. Goulburn, the vote was agreed to.
principle that as the Noble Lord had preserved peace he The next vote was 7,3001. for salaries and expenses
was cheap at any price.—(Laughter.) Now he (Lord in the department of Comptroller-General of the Ex-
G. Bentinck) was totally at a loss to discover of what chequer.
use Lord Minto had bees in preserving peace; on the Colonel SIBTHORP said he had moved some time
contrary, it appeared to him that the Noble Lord had ago for a return of the duties of the Comptroller of the
done much to provoke the rebellion among the subjects Exchequer, who he imagined had no control at all.—
of the King of Sicily.—(Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend (Laughter.) This salary of 2,000/. a year was one of
the Member for the county of Bucks (Mr. Disraeli) had the most horrible jobs that existed. He thought it was
desired to know what had been the instructions given by a toss-up between the Comptroller and the Deputy-
her Majesty's Government to the Queen's navy acting Comptroller, whose attendance was pretty nearly on a
in the Mediterranean, and the Noble Lord had refused to par. The fact was, the deputy was the working man,
answer that question. His Hon. Friend had not in- and he was most indefatigable and attentive. The
quired as to future instructions, but with reference to comptroller himself was about .six months at his office,
past instructions, and what had been the acts done by the but the deputy did all the work. It was his intention
authority of the British Government in the dispute be-
to move to bring in a Bill that the Noble Lord (Mon-
tween the King of the Two Sicilics and his rebellious teagle) should be removed from the office of comp-
subjects. This was a question he had a right to troller, and the duties given to the deputy-comptroller,
connecting them in some way with the Bank of England.
ask and to have answered. It had been commonly
In the present state of the House it was :hopeless to di-
reported that while the countries were thrown
vide, but he should protest against this as a gross job
into confusion by the sudden and unexpected rising
and a humbug.
of the people, and when the latter succeeded in over-
powering the King's forces in Sicily—and when the King Dr. BOWRING said that in another session he
of Naples, recovering from his astonishment, had pre- should move the abolition of the Exchequer altogether;
pared an army of 30,000 men, which would have over- for, io the way in which the business was conducted,
powered the insurgents, the British men-of-war, under the Exchequer, instead of exercising any control, was
Sir William Parker, appeared in the Bay of Naples, arri nothing but an incutnbrance. The Exchequer merely
a message was sent by the Bulldog steamer to inform the indorsed what the Treasury recommended, and then
King's forces that if they proceeded, as they had in- drew on the Bank of England for what was required.
T
tended, to bombard Palermo, and to reduce the imur-
his wits no security whatever to the revenue. On the
gents to obedience, they would be opposed by the forces i ther hand, when money had to be paid into the Bank
of the Queen of England.—(Hear, hear.)
This was a to the credit of the revenue, the Exchequer required
point upon which he trusted the House and country so many documents to be prepared and su many steps
would receive some clear, distinct, and unequivocal in- to be taken, that it was rendered a most complex
formation from the Government. He (Lord G. Ben- matter. This applied to the case of fees, the receiver of
thick) could nut refrain from expressing his surprise which stated that he had the greatest difficulty in getting
that a member of a Whig Government, inheriting the money into the. Bank. Unfortunately the salary of
the powers the Whigs originally obtained upon their the Comptroller of the Exchequer, 2,0001., was not
professions of non-intervention, reform, and retrench- voted by the House, but was paid out of the consolidated
tuent, should take credit to himself for the events fund. This was an anomaly which ought to be put an
which had taken place in Portugal. Why there the end to. He implored the Government to take these
constitution had been superseded—all these who matters into consideration during the recess.
had fought the battle of freedom and the constitu- Mr. GOULBURN said he feared that three months
tion in the course of the last year had been excluded experience on the estimates Committee had given some
altogether from power—which they would have main- of its members very little insight into the offices into
tamed but for the interference of the Whig Govern- which they had inquired. The practice was this: orders
ment of this country in favour of the Queen of Portugal. for payment were made by the Treasury, and it was the
--(Hear, hear.) With respect to the relations of this duty of the Exchequer to see that those orders were in a
country with France, his Hon. Friend (Mr. Disraeli) perfectly legal form. In several instances while he was
so far from condemning an alliance with France, had ap- in Once irregularities had been detected. lie thought it
pealed to the times of Elizabeth, of Cromwell, and of absurd to suppose that these duties might be discharged
Walpole, as those in which this country had sought and by the Bank of England.
cherished an alliance with France. lie had not repu- The vote was then agreed to.
dieted the French alliance, but had maintained that we On the vote of 2,6801. for salaries and expenses of the
ought not to pander to the restlessness of any revolu- State Paper-office.
tionary republic, by sacrificing our friends and violating Mr. OSBORNE asked,what the Committee meant by
treaties. solely to prevent France from making an un- recommending "a fusion" of this office with the Record-
just aggression. He (Lord G. Bentinck) admired ias office. Did they mean the office should be burnt ?
much as any one the efforts of France to procure for Dr. BO WRING said he was not responsible for the
herself liberty; but it was no insult to tell her that she literary beauties of the report; but the Committee thought
was impotent for the purposes of aggression, though that the offices might advantageously be brought together.
omnipotent to repel enemies from her own tern- Sir G. GREY thought it important that a distinction
tory.—(Hear, hear.) It had been truly stated that should be kept up between the papers of the State-paper-
her exchequer was in no condition for making foreign office and those of the Public Record-office, however ad-
war, and could not afford to send 100,000 men to vantaeeous it might be to place them under the same
Italy, thereby uniting Russia, Prussia, and Austria management.
against her. He hoped the day would never come when Colonel SIBTHORPE suggested that the office should
this Government might justly be characterised, as it be calledi" the waste-paper-office."—(Laughter.)
had been by Sotomayor, us haughty to the humble, and Mr. P. HOWARD spoke of the great assistance
humble to the haughty. He hoped we would in no way which persons engaged in literary pursuits derived from
discourage the established Governments with which we the public records.
were friendly, from any fear that France in her restless- The vote was then agreed to.
ness would disturb the peace of Europe. The way to On the vote of 3,5401., for the expenses of the Ecele-
be friendly with France was to tell her that she would siastical Commission.
be powerless in a war of aggression, but all-powerful Dr. BOWRING asked if the Government were pre-
against any assault on her rights, in the defence of which
pared to give effect to the recommendations which the
England would be found ready to unite with her.
Committee had made on this head.
The CHAIRMAN was about to put the vote, when take
thiseti hmsea to
subject.
(Lord URQUHART hoped the Noble Lord opposite Sider,
before
G. G
givinsaidgthat
anydi h
s titneey must
tpledge
on
(Lord Palmerston) would answer the question which had Vote agreed to.
been put, at an earlier period of the debate, as to the On the next vote, 236,000/. for the administration of
circumstaiices which had led to the proposed mediation the poor-laws,
in the north of Italy being undertaken. Col. SIBTHORP complained that this was an in-
Viscount PALMERSTON said that when the first crease of 2C,0001. on last year.
overture was made on the part of the British Govern- Mr. HUME thought that 236,0001. was an enormous
ment, it was merely an offer to mediate, and he hoped sum for the mere administration of the poor-law, and
the House would not overlook the distinction between that it ought to be reduced.—(Hear.)
the office of an umpire or arbitrator, in which character Mr. OSBORNE said the vote showed that the sygtem
this mediation had been spoken of by some Hon. Mem- of centralisation was more expensive than that of local
bers, and that of a simple mediator employing his good management.—(Hear.) The expense for the adminis-
offices.--(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen had talked of tration of the Scotch poor-law only amounted to 3,e60/.
the arbitration of England, and of England and' France He should like to know whether the Scotch poor were
acting as umpires; but that was not their character. well looked after?
The first request to this Government to employ its good Mr. ELLIOT said they were not so well looked after
offices with a view to restore peace in Northern Italy as they
had been made by Baron llummilauer, who had ought to be.—(Bear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the expenses of the
been sent over by the Austrian Government specially
auditors, schoolmasters, schoolmistresses, and medical
for that purpose. That offer was not declined.
officers had nothing to do with the general administra-
There was a difference between the two Govern-
tion of the poor-law, though they were included in the
ments as to the terms on which the British Govern-
Note. It was very unfair to suppose that the increase
ment thought they could enter into the mediation with
had been caused by the centralisation.
a fair prospect of success. An offer was made to mediate After u few words from Captain PECIIELL and Mr.
upon certain bases which the British Government thought ek
ainNTZ,
at that time likely to be attended with success, and Lord EBRINGTON said that it had been made matter
nothing further ensued in consequence. The last corn-
of complaint that the medical officers were underpaid;
munication by which the Austrian Government ex- now as only half of that expense was paid by the State,
pressed their desire to have the good offices any increase of it must involve a corresponding increase
of England,
not the arbitration but the friendly offices of England, en the part of the guardians. The number of school.
with a view to the restoration of peace in Northern
toasters and schoolmistresses were inadequate to the
Italy, had been made by Baron Wessellberg, the demand, and consequently it was necessary to pay higher
Austrian Minister for Foreign Affairs; it was dated eth salaries.
of August, and had been presented to him (Lord Mr. BRIGHT complained of the special expenses of
Palmerston) a few days ago, by the Austrian Charge inspectors.
Mr. C. BULLER said the salary of inspectors was
d'Affaires in this country.
,001., and they were paid a guinea a day for expenses.
Parker Sir J. WALSH wished for some information as to the -
however, considering the labour
instructions which had been given to Sir W. That was on the supposition that they resided in Lon-
withdon. It had been found,
respect to the course to be taken by the squadron
the inspectors were put to, that a salary of 1,0001. was
in the Mediterranean. Had the Government
state, it
proper to declare war against
them
not too large. It appeared to him to be necessary to
and asking
would have been incumbent on to
fact,epome down to
have two scales of salary. The IIPW inspectors were
appointed at the reducedscale of .
in carrying on the
the House with a message, stating the
5001. a ear besides
their expenses.
for the co-operation of the House The great use of central ) ' .
andestahlisihnsapertextiaoanflier
wthheicandmininteirsmt-raattiioena
authority was
war. If instructions had been given to Admiral Parker
to keep u i a system of .
of the lawl,
to interfere in a hostile manner against the King
could he derived with respect to the law.
Mr. BRIG): ' ...
of Naples, in the event of that Sovereign. taking any
in Sicily, such a
steps to suppress the revolt
I. r said that there were 11 inspectors with
course would distinctly amount to an act of war against
State—(Hear, hear)—and Ministers salaries which amounted to 11.000/. But it appeared
the Neapolitan ,
would not be justified in taking such a step, and at the the.'. 7,515/. was paid in addition for travelling and inci-
i guinea a day.
dental expenses. That was a great deal more than a
same time declining all information on the subject when
asked. At this moment there was no conceivable differ
once between the position of Sicily and Ireland, except Mr. BULLER said that the usage of the office was to
that Naples was a weak state, and England a strong one. allow a guinea a day for personal expenses, and the ex-
If it went out to the world that the King of Naples had , Panees of locomotion beeid: s. He thought that the sys-
been precluded, by threats from this country, frorn adopt- . tent which had been hitherto adopted was a bad one, and,
ing a course which he had a perfect right to take, a great all lie could do was to establish a new one for.the future.
stain would rest on this country. Atter a few words from Mr. OS BORNE, .
Lord G. BENTINCK asked whether he was to under- Mr. GLADSI ONE said that the Right Hon. Gentle-
stand that the Foreign Minister of the Emperor of Aus-
our ally, to man had appointed three new inspectors, and he should
tria had been authorised by the Emperor,day
7to know whether he allowed them the guinea a
treat with England in this matter, or had he been
ing on some other authority? Also, whether the
treat- Mr. C. BULLER did not wish to propose any altera-
why the mediation sought by Austria from Englandte rahsoand
lion, but he considered that there would be a difficulty
not been agreed to, was that England made it in consequence of the arrangements which he had made
a sine qua
being too economical.—(Laug,liter.) Ile had proposed
non that Austria should resign a large
~
that the new inspectors should take office at 5001. a year,
trritories which, by the treaty 01 Paris, she was entitled I •
to claim?t instead of 7001., and with no allowance of a guinea a

*IR • ~