The Sun.
London, England, 1846-02-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORN] NG, FEBRUARY 18, 1846.

a party, and this was not very surprising, considering the great
changes which had taken place in the principles of public men.
Indeed, they should of necessity be in that position. They
were now disagreeing amongst themselves. 'I hey were with-
out any settled kind of action ; and though they were undis-
ciplined and unofficered, they were still undismayed.—( Cheers. )
What they believed to be the cause of the good and the just, was
one from which they would not become dissenters ; and, with
God's help, they would be loyal and true to the end. His Right
Hon. Friend had, he conceived, taken undue steps in reference
to the failure of the potato crop in Ireland. He (gr. Shaw)
had already stated that he would approach that question with
great caution, for he was willing to admit its importance.
He was ready to admit that the time of periodical distress
was approaching in Ireland; but he would contend for it that
the statements upon the subject of the failure of the potato
crop had been greatly exaggerated. He had visited various
counties in Ireland, and he bad received communications from
persons in the provision trade, such as contractors for supply-
ing the gaols and workhouses, and other public institutions,
with this article of food. He had also carefully watched the
state of the markets ; and the result of all these measures of
procu:ing information on this subje.st tended to show that
there would undoubtedly be a deficiency of the potato
crop in some parts of Ireland, but that in a great
majority of districts the crop would be an average
crop, and that much of the deficiency complained
of had been owing to a glutting of the market upon
the first rumours of the supposed famine.—( Hear.) He did
not mean to dwell at any further length upon this topic;
and he would leave it now by expressing the satisfac-
tion he felt at having observed the encouragement given
to the employment of the labouring classes in Ireland
this session, by the temporary expedient for meeting this tem-
porary evil. He knew it would be a waste of time to dwell
upon it now, but he thought he was warranted in saying
that it was a subject of wonder to many that his Wet
Honourable Friend could have recommended such mea-
sures without a more mature consideration of the pro-
bability of a worse state of things than they had any
real reason to apprehend. It was only the other day he
had heard the Hight Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, state, in answer to a question from
the Hon. Member for Rochdale, in reference to that clause in
the Poor-relief Act affording out-door relief, that he was de-
cidedly adverse to any alteration in the established system.—
( Hear, hear.) This certainly did not accord with the lately
avowed principle of the Right Hon. Baronet; and he did
think that the impetus that had of late been given to employ-
ment in this country by the railways, had been very unfairly
kept out of view by her Majesty's Government. There
was, no doubt, a great deal that was plausible in the Govern-
ment plans. But he begged to remind the Right Hon. Baronet
that Hon. Members on that side of the House were not quite
so unlearned as he seemed to think in the doctrines of Adam
Smith.—( Hear, hear.) They all knew that those doctrines
were very fine, and would be very fair and reasonable if they
could persuade other countries to adopt them also. But they
should take into consideration the national debt, the com-
plicated interests, and the very many other peculiar circum-
stances of this country, its well-being, and its prosperity, in
considering this measure.—(Cheers.) The speech of his
Right Hon. Friend, delivered the other night, was in fact a
free-trade speech, unqualified by any of those exceptions which
he had been so strenuous a supporter of for the last
few years. It was not upon the ground of the petitio
principii that he had put these measures for-
ward, nor had they been suggested by an anxious
anticipation of the state of things in Ireland, which had been
so much dwelt upon. It did appear to him (Mr. S.) that,
for the last thirty years, the Right Hon. Gentleman appeared
'o think he had beer. wrong, and that it was only within the

' subject of labour, and he thought that it was one of the
greatest proofs that the question now agitating the public mind
was a labourer's and a farmer's question, by the fact that al-
most in every part of the country they would find very few of the
landed interest present at those meetings, which were entirely
composed of tenant-farmers, whc feel that their interests are alone
involved in that question. The landlord was opulent, and it
would not make any material difference to himl; but the
tenant bound to a farm, from which he could not escape, was
placed in a very different position. Of the expenses attendant
on the cultivation of a farm, and the sums to be paid, the rent
was by no means the principal feature.—(Protectionist cheers.)
A difference of 101. in the price of wheat would make a dif-
ference of one-half of his rent. Now, he did not mean to
say that he was a very intelligent man, but he thought,
while they were getting only an average price for corn,
that a measure ought not to be introduced which would
make a difference of one-half his rent—(Hear, hear)—
but he did mean to state that if there was a rise in corn, there
was also an addition to the wags of the labourer.—(" Hear,
bear," from the Opposition.) And so, when the price of
corn fell, in the same proportion did a reduction take place
in the wages of the agriculturists.— (Loud cheering.)
When corn was low, as it was in the years 1822 and
IS3s—corn then averaging at 395. the bushel—the price of
labour fell, and it had ever been his experience that the pecu-
niary difficulties of the farmer produced the worst results upon
the agriculturist, who appeared never to derive any advantage
from the cheapness of bread, though it might reasonably be sup-
posed otherwise. The Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, did not always entertain
the same opinion with respect to wages as he did
then ; he was not going to blame that change,
for he believed that it arose from sincere conviction—( Hear,
hear)—but he was going to quote from a speech delivered in
1839 by the Right Hon. Baronet, for the purpose of strength-
ening the case which he (Mr. Palmer) was endeavouring to
place before the House. The Right Hon. Baronet asked,
wheat he was addressing the parties who advocated a repeal of
the cern-law, " What was their object—was it to raise the price
of corn ? If it was, he would tell them that they would also
raise the price of wages. Was it their object not to raise the
price of corn ?—if they des red a low rate of corn, he would
tell them at once that they also desired to produce a low rate
of wages."—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) These were the opi-
nions of the Right Hon. Baronet in 1839. He considered at
that period that diminished protecticn would throw large
quantities of land out of cultivation, and he (Mr. Palmer)
was not to be blamed if, in 1846, he adhered to the lesson
which he had learned from the Right Hon. Baronet then.
—( Hear, hear.) He had already trespassed much too long
on the attention of the House, much longer than
he had intended, because he felt that the question had been so
long, so ably, and so successfully argued—(Cheers) that
he could add nothing to it. For his own part,
having no such convictions forced upon his mind as were
forced upon the Hon. Baronet, and entertaining an opinion
both of the justice and the expediency of maintaining the same
amoutt of protection to agriculture and the other branches of
native industry as had been m iintained heretofore, he could
see no sufficient reason for the change now proposed to be
carried into law, and the Right Hon. Baronet must, therefore,
excuse him if he•declined to follow him in the path in which
he wished to lead him.—(Cheers.) They had been told by
the Secretary at War (Mr. Sidney Herbert) that this was a
golden opportunity for settling the present question with
honour—( Hear, hear)—but he did not see how any question
could be settled with honour when it was to be done at the ex-
pense of political honesty.—(Loud cheers.) He had repre-
sented his constituents for many years, and he did not
believe that be ever was asked to give a single pledge as to
his course of conduct in that House. Bat he considered that

there was an implied Qerstanding that he should endeavour last four weeks he had been set right by the speeches of the
to maintain the law as it then existed, and he considered such Anti. Corn-law League.—( Cheers. ) He (Mr. S.) regretted
implication equally binding in honour as any pledge that he that he had not the eloquence or the arguments of his Right
could personally give, and it should never be said that he Hon. Friend to enable him to dwell upon the subject as he
deserted the interests of those who had sent him to that could wish, for if he had he would endeavour to exhibit to the
House.— ( Hear, hear.) House in its proper position the fact that the words of the
Sir CHARLES NAPIER, bad hoped that, after the elo- Right Hon. Gentleman upon this measure, upon former occa-
quent and unanswerable speech of the Right Hon. Baronet sions, were now in the actual process of being eaten at that table.
at the head of the Government, that Hon. Gentlemen oppo- —( Cheers. ) It would not de for the Right Hon. Baronet,
site would have seen the propriety of bringing the present the Secretary of State for the Home Department, now
debate to a conclusion.—(Cheers and laughter.) He could to say that he would rather abrogate his wealth than receive
not see what purpose they had in view by prolonging it.— it at the expense of the poor.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
( Laughter.) The great complaint which Hon. Gentlemen Shaw) could not but contrast the language, the pathetic
had to the Right Hon. Baronet was, that he proposed to phrases, of the Right Hon. Gentleman in reference to the
bring in a new corn.law, which he had done in consequence factory children and the people employed in mines—whose
of the failure of the potato crop in Ireland. He (Sir C. condition he had said was worse than sending the Poles to
Napier) did not see why the Hon. Gentlemen should have Siberia—with his present sentiments.—(Hear, hear.) The
expressed such indignation at the change of mind which such a House might depend upon it that those changes of opinion
course exhibited on the part of the Right Hon. Baronet. by the Members of her Majesty's Government would be
He was not the only person, however, against whom this appreciated as they deserved, and traced to their true source.
iedignation should have been evinced. —( Cheers.) The But, to pass from those six-months' converts to those who were
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department not converts as many days, he would first come to what ap-
had shown a similar change of mind.—( Cheers and laughter.) peered to him to be the most inexplicable and unexplained part
The Right Hon. Secretary at War had followed in the wake of the question—he meant the colleagues of the Right Hon.
of the two Noble Baronets.—( Roars of laughter.) The Gentleman, who first raised an alarm by retiring from office be-
Chancellor of the Exchequer had expressed a similar opinion, cause they disapproved of the measure introduced, and then, in
and other Hon. Gentlemen on the same side of the House. six or eight days subsequently, turned round.—(Cheers.) It
He wondered that Hon. Gentlemen did not tax that (the was contended that they were all honourable men.
Opposition) side of the House with having changed their minds He knew the majority of them, and he believed
also. They had shown a change quite as great as that ex- such to be decidedly true; but that was not
bibited by the Right Hen. Baronet.—( Laughter. ) Did they enough, for the public had a right to require
imagine they were to follow the example of country gentlemen every explanation for the acts of public men.
ho ploughed the same horses now as they did twenty or thirty But these gentlemen had set the very worst precedent ; as a de-
years ago.—(Roars of laughter.) Did not the Right Hon. parture from sound principles to meet particular cases of erner-
Gentleman explain that so early as the Ist of November last gency was invariably adopted by bad men for their own pur-
he proposed to open the ports and the only support which such a poses.—( Hear, hear.) He asserted that it was not alone for
proposition had-in the Cabinet was from three of his colleagues ? their own country's sake that the principles of their public men
The Right Hen. Baronet then resigned. The Noble Lord should be fully intelligible; they should be intelligible to the
( Lord John Russell) was then called to the helm of affairs, and men of all other countries—:hey should not alone be suited for
the Noble Lord also failed to construct a Government.— the present age, but for history also.—( Hear, hear.) There-
( Cheers and laughter.) He ( Sir Charles Napier) rejoiced fore, while he did not throw the slightest aspersion on the private
that the Noble Lord had failed.—(Laughter.) The Noble character of any gentleman, he should say that the conduct of
Lord had done so in an uncertainty as to how many of the Hon. many Honourable Members remained to be explained, and
Gentlemen opposite would have come over to his opinions, and he believed the public of that country, and the discriminating
under the circumstances • he was perfectly justified public of every other country, would consider their conduct as
in declining to undertake the Government.—( Hear, hear.) an evidence of imbecility of mind, and as a political tergiver-
The Noble Lord the Member for Newark asked why the Right sation unprecedented in English annals.—(Loud cheers.)
Hen. Baronet did not open the ports now. Had this been Would not France draw a striking contrast between the consis-
the case, and had the Right Hon. Baronet proposed the im. tency and firmness of her first Minister—whose object was to
mediate opening of the p rts, he would have met with the consolidate the power and extend the empire of his Sovereign—
same reproaches, and the same complaints would have followed. as compared with the opposite qualities exhibited by the Right
—( Hear, hear.) He ( Sir C. Napier) thought that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Ministry ?—( Hear,
Hon. Baronet was perfectly right in the course he had adopted hear.) And, looking to their relations with America, they might
under the circumstances. He believed the Right Hon. Ba- flatter themselves with the notion that by the enactment of mea-
ronet would much sooner have the immediate repeal of the sures of a free-trade nature, they could bribe her to peace,
corn-laws than that they should be protracted for three years but was the present the moment that the Ministry should
longer, but he sincerely believed that the Right Hon. Baronet select to display their want of spirit, and their crouching with-
had g..ne as far as he could go.—( Cheers and laughter.) drawal before the pressure of blustering and clamour?—( Hear,
But if they (the Opposition side of the House) bear.) He firmly believed that the present Ministry would
fell into the trap which the Honourable Gentlemen be handed down to posterity as the greatest political cowards
opposite had laid for them, with respect to the that ever held the reins of Government.—(Protectionist
immediate opening of the ports, they would defeat the measure cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for
entirely.—( Hear, hear.) He therefore hoped and trusted the Home Department not only spoke with all the zeal of a
that they would abide by the proposition of the Hon. Baronet, political neophyte, but also acted as one; and he (Mr. Shaw)
though it might not reach the full limit of their desires.— could put no other construction on the speech of the Right
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for Newark, Hcaeurable Gentleman but that, for the sake of peace
also proposed, that before they concurred in the measures and order, he had discarded the support of a great party
which had been proposed, that they should appeal to the coun- which comprised the rank, the wealth, ay, and he would say,
try. Now he ( Sir C. Napier) would ask, was that a time to whatever Hon. Gentlemen opposite might think, the intelli-
make such an appeal, when Ireland was in a state of starve- genre of the country.—(ob, oh, and protectionist cheers.)
tion—when the public tranquillity was in imminent danger of Yes, for the sake of saving them and the country from ruin,
being disturbed? Ar.d Hon. Gentlemen opposite knew that the Right Hon. Baronet threw himself and the Government
such% state of things really existed?—(Cheers, and cries of into the bands of the Anti-Corn-law League and the Repeal
" No, no.") The consequence which would follow the carry- Association of Dublin.—(Cheers and counter cheers.) But
out of the proposition of the Noble Lord would he, that the lesson would not be lost in Ireland. He had observed, that
matters would become still worse.—( Cheers.) The. Noble Lord Mr. Smith O'Brien, a gentleman for whom he entertained its
was the most extraordinary man that ever he had heard speak private the highest respect, though he differed with him in
on the subject.—(Roars of laughter.) The Noble Lord had politics, had pointed out the present concession as an
always been a sliding-scale nobleman— ( Laughter )--hut now the harbinger of ultimate success for the Repeal Association.
Noble Lord proposed to accept a fixed dut Hear, hear.) He was an enthusiastic gentleman, and would profit by the
The Noble Lord, therefore, was as much in fault— as the Right concession. He should declare that, if in two years hence he
Hon. Baronet. The Hon. Baronet was influenced in his should see Sir Robert Peel, under the pressure of agitation,
change of mind by a regard for the public welfare, but the introduce some modified plan for a repeal of the Legislative
Noble Lord was influenced by self-interested motives and from Union, he would not be so much astonished as if any man
a desire to keep his rents higher.—(Cheers, and cries of " Oh, had told him, two years since, that he should witness
oh.") He would tell the House what he believed to be the the introduction of a measure like the present.
truth—(Uproar)—and he was of opinion that there would not (Cheers.) The measure would have a most dangerous
have been such an opposition to the measure of effect, and would be a further inducement to the
the Right Ron. Baronet if they were not impressed repeaters of Ireland to persevere in their determination.
with the idea that the effect would be to cause a reduction in When he heard his Hon. Friend last night threaten these
their rents.—( Cheers, and cries of" Oh, oh.") It was not his gentlemen representing the agricultural interest to give them
desire to press hardly on Hon. Gentlemen opposite. He con- total repeal, he thought it was not very worthy of the Right
sidered, however, that there were certain feelings which some- Hon. Baronet, and he did think that it showed his instability
times crept into the human heart, which blinded it to a sense and his infirmity as a public man. The Noble Lord the Member
of justice, and prevented it from asserting those principles of for London had spoken of his party the other night, and
truth which, under other circumstances, it would at once adopt. gloried in .he share they had in bringing forward this mea-
The Right Hon. Baronet, in his speech of last night, adverted sure. He (Mr. Shaw) owned, that when he heard
to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Northampton ; the Member for London state the means that been adopted
and he had very properly animadverted upon it. Now if, in- in order to carry this measure he thought that the Noble Lord
stead of making long speeches on the other side of the House, spoke in bitter irony.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches. )
Hon. Members were to give long leases, their tenants would Let what would result from the measure—either failure or sue-
not suffer half so much, even according to their own argu- cess—let it bring either weal or woe to the interest of this
ments, as they otherwise would from this measure.—( Hear, country, neither honour nor glory would. ever be associated
hear.) If they were to go down into Scotland, they would with the means that had been adopted to bring it about.—
see the improvements in agriculture there. They would see (Cheers from the Ministerial side.) It was well known to
them thrashing corn there by steam, instead of by men and men of every system of polities that this proposed measure had
horses. It might appear strangely singular to Honour- given a shock to public feeling and confidence which rover-
able Members for a sailor like him to give them berated through every portion of the Queen's empire, and had
such advice, but he was a farmer himself. It was injured all confidence in the Government- When the Noble
true he was a farmer upon a small scale—so much the worse Lord, the Member for London, spoke of the satisfaction he felt
for him.—(Laughter.) He took a farm about two years ago in the measure, he must have felt well satisfied to look at that
of forty acres, and he wished he could have afforded to take side of the House, to see their broken ranks—to see the Right
more.—(Continued laughter.) It was now fourteen years in Honourable Baronet, with the very weapon with which
cultivation, and, up to the time he had taken it, it had produced he had effected the overthrow of the Noble Lord, now com-
nothing. His predecessors could grow nothing, the soil was mitting a sort of political suicide--(Cheers from the Minis-
a barren one, and in fact truly unfortunate All who had taken terial side)—to see the man who had formerly commanded in
it up had most signally failed. He had not been on it above the House, and driven the Noble Lord from his position, now
a year before he had lost 100/. clear money.—(Laughter.) supplicating the Noble Lord for support.—(Hear, hear.) He
His next door neighbour was ap- or fellow, but be was a good (the Right Hon. Baronet) was humbly supplicating the Noblr,
fellow; he had no money, but he managed to live very Lord to uphold the existence of his Government.—(" Oh !
well. He (the Honourable Baronet) said to him, from the Opposition.) Well, then, those gentlemen who cried
" Well, old fellow"—(Laughter)—he said to] him, " Oh, oh," could not at least deny that the Government of the
" Well, old fellow, how is it you get on—you have no money ? 'tis Right Hon. Baronet existed on the sufferance of the Noble
true, you have but a wife and a pony—how is it you manage to Lord. When he thought of what that party was years
do so well ?" I said, " I have money, and have spent it on my ago, when the Right Honourable Baronet was at its
land, and yet can produce nothing but a loss."—(Laughter.) head, and contrasted its then position with what it was
" Well, Sir," said he, "my advice to you is, to dig up all your now, he could not help declaring that he was sorry
ditches, and then to go eighteen inches with your plough, and that his political life had lasted until he had seen that day.
then sow your seed." He had followed this advice, and he He considered the course adopted by the Right Hon.
grew the next year eleven acres of oats all good and marketable. Baronet, or, as he trusted he might still call him, his Right
Now. by following this advice—by making all those improve- Hon Friend, to be ruinous.—( Loud laughter from all parts
ments, of all this farrow land he had but fourteen acres which of the House.) He entirely acquitted him of any motive
did not produce an abundant crop. On much of this farrow besides the one he claimed for himself, viz., a strict sense of
land, he could assure the House, that he had grown public duty.—( Cheers.) Whatever his (Mr. Shaw's) opinion
tut nips as large as the heads of many of the might be of the Right Hon. Baronet's political conduct, he
Hon. Members advocating the protective interests of the never thought that he was actuated by any but a good feeling.
other side of the House. He had no doubt that be would be He would conclude by addressing to the Right Honourable
able to grow one thing after the other till at last he would Baronet the words which, many years ago, on a
grow vetches, after which the land would produce corn, and similar occasion, he (the Right Honourable
improvedßevi-
system ef agriculture. net) had addressed to the Member for London—" You wish to
If Hon. Members who made such an outcry against the in- induce us to follow principles in which there are nothing but
• lture would but get down their ditches, and sow varying counsels—divided colleagues—statements of facts that
roads of agriculture,
their corn in accordance with such improvement, initead of cannot be reconciled—arguments leading to opposite conclu-
makinghey would do well, and th
this would be the result of an •
those long speeches, t
security to to try in
would be no loss, but a a ery favourable gain. He had taken up protection now existing as a agriculture,
discussion—he thought a new course wasagricultural lottery, in the vain hope of drawing out a prize."
a new part in this dis an
old tack had e result sions. We cannot surrender our judgment to throw down the
very necessary, as the been worn quite —(lmmense cheering.)
threadbare, and he thought Hon. Members would appreciate Mr. BRIGHT said that the Hon. Member who had just
the course he laid down for their guidance, and that the result resumed his seat, and other Members on the protectionist side,
would be, that they would vote for the measure before the should have learned by heart the speeches delivered by the
House.—( Cheers and laughter.)
Right Hoe. Baronet and the Right Hon. the Home Secretary.
Mr. F. SHAW said that, in speaking on the present mea- —(" Oh, oh," from the Ministerial side.) If these speeches
sure, ho would allow that he had much of that party feeling-, had been correctly committed to memory, sonic two Members
although he must confess that much of that party feeling had might have delivered them to the House, and have saved much
given was. The course taken by those with whom he had time and trouble, and a good deal of repetition. He had hoped
for years 'acted had left him but one alternative, either to that when the Honourable Member for Bristol moved the
his opinion in unison with theirs. amendment the principle of protection was about to be discussed.
vtehreifyHouse was one of all others which The question really to be considered was the repeal of the corn-
wouldkTeheep silence,
measure
before or t o
Ireland. The laws, and not the party quarrels on the opposite side of the
and Gallant House. They were very much mistaken if they supposed
Member
in the debate. that the great body of the people cared anything about
debateemb e
rd
hadu
had
ar
taken
aakt
n and
introduceda incalculable;new
turn.
that
ainjury
hTe
change
H to
cn
Many of those who bad risen on the subject had said they the quarrels of the Conservative party. He had listened
would vote for the treasure, but many of those who had also to nearly every speech on that side of the House that had
risen said they would vote against the motion. The Noble been made in support of protection, and he, instead
Lord the Member for Liverpool said that the measure though of entering into their party disputes, would direct his attention
he would not wee against it, if it should.be carried, would to the arguments that had been brought forward in its favour.
disappoint those who had brought it forward, and placed such The lion. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin's
reliance on its results, and he (the Hon. Member) was of (Mr. Shaw's) speech was entirely directed to the party quarrel
opinionthatitwoulddisappointthe public generally. bethought at issue, and therefore he (Mr. Bright) did not intend to
Majesty's Ministry answer it,—(lronical cheers from the Conservative benches.)
Lord Ashley), who if he was not mistaken, the question of protection was the real
had Right
uo Hon.right
to say Baronet
that a
the
ee
Noblehead
had resigned his seat, was in favour of the measure; because he question before the House, and therefore he would pass on to the
had so resigned, instead of voting for the measure. ThelHon. speeches of those who attempted to grapple with it. The
Member for Liverpool, who had said that the measure would Hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. P. Miles), who introduced
be of the greatest injury to the interests of the question, said that the farmers would not be content to
this country was animadverted upon in the spcech of sell cheap corn and buy dear sugar ; and the Hon. Member
the Right Hon. Baronet, who held it as a right that those:
who for Wiltshire dec'ared that it would be unfair for the colonies
held opinions contrary to the Right Hon. Baronet, had a its eht to be protected at a heavy expense to British agri-
to express themselves to that effect on that question, without culture. The Hon. Member said he could not interfere to
being subject to attack. The Noble Lord the Member for the (rive protection to the planter or the colonist, if Parliament
West Riding of Yorkshire had said, that those who had advo-
I te,•:hdrew protection from British grain. 'ln that principle he
sated the protectife interests in that Rouse were broken up as (mr,
.Bright) agreed. He admitted its truth, and he eineerelY