The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-17 00:00:00

and judgment in endeavouring to supply the people with food.
A stimulant had been applied to the resources of the country
in providing labour for the poor. But then what had that to
do with the measure of free trade? They had heard in the
course of this diseu,sion of the great wisdom, and zeal, and

honesty, and he knew not ‘‘hat, in fact, of the virtues of the
Prime Minister. It had been said that Sir Robert Peel was

the greatest Minister to be found in the history of this coun-
try. Gcod God ! were they to say all 'his of a Minister that
had acted the part of Sir Robert Peel—a man who confessed
that for the greatest part of his life his jtidgm,tnt was erro-
neou., and that his plitieal conduct was not. in unison with
sound principles?—( Hear, hear.) Was a man, because he
confessed that he hail been in err,r during the greats-r part of
his life, to he lauded beyond measure? He (the Marquis of
Clanricarde) could not listen to such a proposition. And
more than that, when they were called upon to
scrutinise the whole of such a Minister's conduct,

they would tin:l that there was noi,hing extraordinary
as regarded his honesty to a great p.,rty. The Miniiter had
sacrificed a great party. But he (the Marquis of Clatiricarde)
had not the Tightest conception in his mind, nor could he. by
any exertion of his intellect, bring himself to see, how Sir
Robert Peel, in changing his opinions, and avowing
that change, had entitled himself to laudation untie ad
nauseam.—(l-Isar. hea . ) It had been said that Sir Robert
Peel intended, when this Bill was passed, to relinqui.h office

and power. Now he (the Marquis of Clanricarde) believed in
so such rum,yur.—( Hear. hear ) Let their Lordships look to
his speeches, and they would find no admi,.sion of that ,sort.
If they read his speeches, they would find that, in answer to the
addresses of the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton. ir. su,port
of a repeal of the corn-laws, he stated a few years ago, that he
was convinced that the continuance of a s iding-scale was
necessary for the maintenance of Briti.h pro,perity.
Now he did not think that so sudden a chlrige

as had taken place tit the mind of the Prune Minister ed uinded
to his credit in the slightest d-gree. And then they heard him
talking of the difficulties of recon, fling tie interests of an
ancient Monarchy, a proud aristocracy, and a refermed House
of Commons. He (die Marquis of Clanricarde) took lea, eto
say, that more injury that' by such practices could not be ir.-
flicted en this country by a man occupying a high station
( Hear.) More injury was thus done to the arist.icracy. more
injury was done to the Monarchy than any other course could
do.—(Hear, hear,) He admitted that he could have wished
that this question should have been submitted to another Par-
liament; he saw no reason why an appeal should not have
been made to the country.--(Hear, hear.) Sir Robert Peel
had every opportunity of do'ng so. Parliament was dissolv d
in Itl4l upon this question, but under totally different circum-
stances. Parliament was then dissolved because the

Government of the country had not a majority to
carry their measures. They did that which it became the

Ministers of the Crown to do. When they thought they had
reasonable grounds to expect the support. of the country th•ty
appealed to the country. There was no prospect of Sir Robert
Peel's getting that support. Did the Cabinet propose any
temporary settlement for a temporary distress ? Nt, the pro-
po.ition was to open the ports. He referred to these matters
because of the monstrous and extravagant laudation of Sir
Robert Peel in regard to this Bili. He did not mean to sus-
pect his motives ; he admired Sir Robert Peel as much as
any other man—(Hear, hear, and laughter)—he considered
him to be a man of great talents, hut he did not consider him
a man of great force. His invariable principle was to
surrender to the pre.sure from without, and he would not
call a man who did that a great Minister —( Hear, hear. )
His changes had ever been with the current of the moment,
and it was a little too much for them to be told that they were

to carry by acclamation the Bill before them, in admire-ion
the Minister who proposed it. —( Hear, hear.) He (the Mar-
quis of Clanricarde) was perfectly unbiassed in this matter,
He could assure their Lordships that he now entertained
honestly and conscientiously, every one of those principles and
opinions which he entente ned on the subject of the corn-laws
in IS-11. It was impossible for him not to look at the conse-
quences which would follow his vote on this question, and, en-
tertaining the principles which he did, he felt himself obliged
to say 't not content' to the amendment.
The Earl of CARNA RVON said the subject had been so
much investigated that he should he unwilling to trespass
upon their attention. He really believed th it the result of
this Bid would be to throw the land of this country
out of cultivation. Employment would be decreased,
and what the poor man wou'd gain on one baud he
would more than loose on the other.—( Hear, hear.)
It was the great increase of the cireulation of capital which
produced the beneficial effects alluded to ; and that might
slacken, and at a time when there was a great abundance of
corn in the market; and there might come that deep distress
upon the tenant-farmer whice his heart bled to think of. He
considered that their Lordships should legislate as much for
little men—( Hear, hear)—as for great proprietors. It they
passed the- present measure they would have to sacrifice that
principle of evenhanded justice which had ever distinguished
their Lordships, for they would have to sacrifice the tenant-
farmer to Cie interest of the manufacturer.—( Hear. hear. )
'fhe H -use was so very wearied with these disenssiiins, that he
would not detain them longer, but he could not think it was
right in them hoe ever to throw away the revenue which pro-
tection had afforded the Crown. If that revenue did not pro-
ceed from indirect sources, they should raise it by direct
taxation. He would conjure them to neigh well the vote they
were about to give upon the presect question, for if they mis-
conceived its bearings it would not be any single
man, but it would be the whole country, which
would have to pay the penalty. (Hear, hear )
and he did not conceive that they should legislate upon this
subject without having reference to the real opinion of the
great constitutional bodies in the country. A \linister was not
to overbear the country or the expression of opinion ; if such
were to be the case, they would not be living under a mixed
Government, but uuder a despotism sander the name of the
Kings, Lords, and Commons—a despotism which would be of
the worst description, as it would he under the semblance of
liberty and the constitution. He could not understand wiry it
was th it their Lordships refused to sanction an amendment.
Why were they not to interfere in the details of the 13 used modify
it in such particulars as they m ght eonsisier nece-sars? If they
were not to do so, their Lordships' House would become a nul
lity—they would be virtually dead, and thenceforward they
might amuse themselves with railway legislation.—( Hear,
hear.) The argument against appeals to the people upon the
present question was, that they would raise a tumult at the
elections, but let them not be dec«ived; when an election came
there would still be a strong feeling in favour of such a po-
pular subject as protection.—( Hear.) He would sit down by
saying, if they did not wish to array class against class—manu-
facturer against farmer—let them accept the amendment, and
at once rut an end to the agitation.
Lord DE MA ULEY said that he had always been opposed
to the corn-laws, and therefore had no difficulty in giving his
vote upon
,the present occasion in favour of the Bill. He
should vote, however, for the amendment proposed, believing,
as he did, that if it were adopted, the Right Hon. Gentleman
who brought forward the measure weuld soon bring forward
another in favour of the present amendment. He would sup-
port the amendment.
Lord CLONCURRY said that it had been stated that the
corn-laws were of great advantage to Ireland, but he denied
that such was the case, for distress existed at intervals:in that
country which did not prevail in any other part of the world.
He would support the Government in passing the measure, as
he believed it would be productive of the greatest good to
the country.
The Earl ef WINCHELSEA wou'd vote for the amend-
men', in the hope that abetter measure would be brought. tor-
ward through an appeal to the country. Jr was a most uncon-
stitutional course for Parliament to take to pledge the repre-
sentatives of the country three years hence to a particular
course of policy. Suppose at the expiration of that time the
representatives of the people affirmed the present system of
protection, wttere would their Lordships be ?—( Hear, hear )
forfeitingshouldp,changewronggreatprinciple
change their
nee,
co,p: opinion.
on ,
after they had attained the position they held ill consequence of
ue sthat s
without public men
their support anti advocacy of a policy directly the re-
verse. He con d tell them that if the l3ll present were
carried the matter would lint rest there, for he would agitate
all the counties, where he had the slightest influence, to reverse
that decision. He would support the amendment brought for-
ward by the Noble Earl, small though the protection was which
it gave.
Lord POLWARTH sa'd thet he had presented many peti-
tions on this question fiem Roxburgh, and other places, and he
would therefore lay what information he had acquired upon the
subject before their Lordships. It haul been stated by those
Niible Lords who were in support or this Bill, that land was let,
and that very recently, at an increased rental. This was to be
accounted for by the fact that the land was taken without any
expectation of the present measure being brought in to take ufl
that protection which made land secure as an investment. In
1642, when many of those farms were let, they were let. on the
faith of the laws then passed with regard to corn. The present.
measure was one which would greatly injure agriculture, and
for that reeve) he would oppose it.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM said that the Noble Lord who had
last addressed the House chat ged the supporters of the present
measure with exciting expectations which could not. be realised.
Now no such expectations had been held out. Another Noble
Lord had charged the Mini-try with a want of political honesty
in nut appealing to the voice of the country. There was
nothing more dangerous than in appealing to the country upon
the question of cheap food.—( Hear, hear.) He did not defend
her Majesty's Ministers or their conduct with respect to the
present measure. He complained of their not having allowed
that House a voice in the introduction of this measure. Why
tdai they not appeal to that House and ask its assistance in the
emergency ? By doing so they would have acted in strict con-
formity with the usual practice on great occastons.—( Hear. )
He contended that that House was alto a portion of 'he demo-
cracy of the country, and as such it was as right to appeal to
their Lordships as to any other part of the community. He
had no hesitation in saying that her Majesty's Ministers had
forfeited all confidence with their Lordships, by the course they
had pursued in introducing the present measure.
( Cheering.) In 1833 he brought forward his motion for free
trade in corn, and he was almost isolated in that proposition.
He was not supported by Hon. Members on his side of the
House—yet, if free trade was to be considered good now, it
was equally good then.—( Hear, hear.) In 1839 and 1840 he
proposed similar propositions, and he received little support
from those who were so anxious in favour of free trade now ;
yet he should be very glad to bear the reasons why that which
was good in 1e45 should be considered as bad in 1e40.---( Hear,
hear.) But mark what had haepened in 1840. Two of the
leaders of the patties of the House of Commons had agreed to
the carrying of the present measure, and that House had
agreed to it by- a majority of 100. In the present House
the main question had been affirmed by a majority of 47, and
the amendment of the Noble Duke last night had also been de-
feated by a majority ot 33.—( Hear, hear ) That motion was
practically the same as the one before the House. which he
hoped would be also rejected. He could not risk the measure
by agreeing to that amendment, neither collet he risk the Bill
by a dissolutions of Parliament, and the same he believed was
the sentiment ot her Majesty's Government.—( Hear, hear. )
When he saw the measure within his grasp, and that it won d
be law within seven days, arid also that it would be a great
benefit to the country generally, tie must support it- His con-
viction was that the result of the measure would be to advance
agriculture, especially in the districts where it was least ad-
vanced—that it would increase the demand for manufacturing
labour, and be the means of generally benefiting all classes of
the community. Under these circumstances he must vote
against the amendment before the House.
Lord BRouGIiAM said they had listened to two or three
able speeches that night, but not the nearest approach had been
made to the question of a fixed duty which was now before the
House. He had heard these speeches—able speeches—ad-
dressed against the second reading of the Bill, but not bearing
on the question of a fixed duty, which was the real question
before them. These speeches had been made by a professed
supporter of the measure, and they
drew forth as exciting
plaudits as if they had been protectiun speeches directed
against the second reading of the Bid. They displayed the
same music—they were attuned to the same gamut—they were
precisely in harmony with the concert, which, however highly
gratifying to the proprietors to whom the chorus was directed,
was to hint at that advanced period, and in that heated atmos-
phere and crowded House, anything but acceptable.
(Laughter, and cheers.) Yet he had been forced to
endure these choral symphonies for four long nights,
to an extent that increased, in a most intolerable degree all
the effects of heat, bad air, and a crowded and inconvenient
house—aggravating ail the miseries that were usually felt at
public dinners, where the music with which they wt re regaled
: cheered those around the table, though it tended to per-
"U" 1.110 revels is a beiteit 614 iDaparo at,tatosplaere.g.

(Hear, and laughter.) Now, to say one word as to the de- After that preface, he (Lord Stanley) naturally concluded
bate. A Noble Lord near him said he was in favour of the that the Noble Lord was about to direct his atten-
amendment because he was against the Bill; aid yet, in `tion strictly and exclusively to the speech of his
order to get rid of the Bill, he proposed to vote fur the amend- Noble Friend, but he had listened with the deepest attention,
ment.—( Hear, and a laugh.) That was a very strange me- j and he might venture to say, that " not the whole, nor the
thud of meeting the question. A Noble Marquis, who had greater part, nor the major part, nor a considerable part, nor a
spoken, supported the amendment., because he was against large portion, nor, indeed, arty portion whatever, had been
the Bill, and he (Lord Brougham) had never been so much directed to the question at issue."—( Laughter.) The Noble
struck at the effect of a speech as he had been with that. Lord began by regretting that one like himself, not in the
The Noble Earl who had last spoken said something of the prime of life, had to deal with the question ; but. he ( Lord
same kind, and in the course of it he ( Lord Brougham) had come Stanley) considered that the Noble Loril had done himself in-
in for a share of his censuring vituperation. Some points t f justice. Indeed, he reminded him of a line in Milton :
his speech escaped him, as he appeared to be in confidential " Anon, a smil•ng cherub he appears,
communication with some Noble Lords on the other side of 4$ 4 •

the ['wise, which he Lord Brougham) csuld not hear. The
circumstance temii.ded him of woat happened to Sereeant
Davy on the we-tern circuit, who in aedressine a jury was told
by the judge to raise his voice. Sergeant Davy rep.ied "that
he waulit raise his voice whenever he came to anything
material."—( Loud laughter.) So in the present case they
were led to suppo-e that when they wanted the Noble Earl to 1
raise his voice they were told he would have done so, but
that there was nothing material.—( Laughter. ) He --Lord
Brougham) did not know what the Noble Earl had
51td in that coi.fidential manner, and therefore he
would not have to increase his pain and to detain
their Lordships in going through it. The Noble
Earl said that nothing ceu d have been more insuring to the
Hoine than the course her Majesta's Government had taken in
'ornigir g forward a Bill an-1 not submitting resolutions on the
subject; for had they given their opinion by reso'ution they
would nut h ive been driven into a corner as they
now were. They were told that this was contrary
to precedent, but to that he would observe that the question
n -w before the House was not m,,re important titan the Refor.n
Bill of 1831. Aud what did her Thjes•y's Government then ?
They did not propose resolutions or act c ntemporammusly
with the Lows House. A Bill instead of this was brought
tutu the House of COMMOOS on the memorable lit of Starch.
IS3l,aml they never heard of it in . his House. except by the public
prints and the votes of the ether House until the Bill came up
'I hay were then driven into the corner as to the acceptance of
this Bid, which was to the effect of altos' comeletely changing
the whose course of legislation in the country. But a dissolu-
tion, took ):'ace, not on the merits of the Bill, hut from another
cause; and a sec aid time, instead of proceeding by resolution,
they mtroducen the Bill into the Lower House, and it went
through in the regular manner. Nor only on that ques ion. but
on others, which were more of companions to the measure
before the House, trey hail proceeded by Bill instead of by
resolution. None of the corn-laws had been introduced in any
other way. It was so in 1804; it was so in the stringent
Bill of 1815 ; also in the Bills of 1822 and 1827 ; and also in
tee Corn Bill of 184 a. It was not then objected to. In the
measure introduced by that Noble Earl's Fri:-nd, in 1841.
on sugar and corn, but which were not successful, the pro-
cess was also by !till. Had those measures gone forward. they
would have proceeded by Bil., and not by resolution. When
he heard his Noble Fiend saying that he believed that deiay
would be most prejedicial to ihia measure, he could not help,
while he heard him drawing forth the cheers of the friends of
the am mdment. and the en• mies of the B 11, he could not
help say iiig, " Save me from my frienda."—, Cheers and
laughter.) The greatest enennes of the Bill could not have
made more ar:rnirable confessions in favour of protection.
What said his Noble Friend (and he begged to observe that he
differed from him fob() cce'o;? He said you dare net appeal to Ii e
people.—( Protectionist cheers.) He knew the meaning of
these hostile cheers ; they formed a very different chorus to
those cheers whien followed the dulcet strains of his Nable
Friend.—( Laughter.) He did not, however, wonder at the
discordseit deers. They c me naturally and consistenhy from
the enemies of the Bill and the friend: of the amendment.
But, his Noble Friend placed his candour—he was going to s,v
his caurage—a Laughter )—preminently forward in i his matter.
Now, how his Noble Friend, or any Then wan, could he so de-
luded as to thiiik that there was ally found ition that that appeal
to the people wool i he tatal to this Bill he ( Lord Br-iugham )
was utterly un ible to comprehend.—(Hear, hear ) His ( Lerd
Brougham's) firm be'ief was, that if the country were
appealed to their verdict would be in favour of the Bid.—
( Cries of " No, no ") Then '.is Noble Friend sa-1 that his
reason for voting against the aineedment was. because it would
allow a twelvemonth's time fur consideration which mieht he
fatal to the Bill.—(Proteetion si cheers.) His N.‘ble Friend
did no' say that he believed -hat the majority of the r fl• cling
part of the country if the questioa were post, fined. vote
aaainst toe 88. Naw he , Lord Brougham ) considered it his
duty to protest against the argument, a:ideeed by his Noble
Fiend in support of the Bid. He should have expetted
f. orn th- adversaries of the Bill such speeches a, had heen de-
livered by his tw.i Noble Friends. The Noble Baron had
brought forward some case • of farina letting at a lower ititc.•
since the introduceon of this measure. He (Lord Brougham).
ter one, placed .ittle reliance oe such cirsumatances, b-retese
each facet tnat had been let since this measure was intro
duced might be paced in particular circumstances ; but if
such arguments were to be hrought forward in tavour of pro-
tection, he saw no rea on why they should not he allowed on
to opp. si-e side. —( Hear, hear. ) Did it net strike the acute-
ness of the No le Baron, when using his fiamrme that rhea
meght be used against him? Did it not strike the Noble Ba-
ron, and all hose wiio acted with him, that there would be a
great oiminutton in the price of wheat ? Be did not pret- nd
to he able to answ-r t e question put by the Noble Earl oppo-
site, wrien he asked the Government to say what wool I be the
prom of tend this time twelvemonth —( Earl Stanhope, " No.
no ")—whether it was to he Inather or lower—(Earl "tanhope,
No, no")—or seme.sueh question sathat.--( Earl Stariheee,
agaan, me such questieti.") Well, the question was,
what was to he the price —(Earl Stanhope, '• The average
price.") Weil. it was difficult tai tell what the average price
ou d be due,ng the next two year:, or the next ten %ears.
( Earl Stanhopo," No, no.") Ile N.ible Lord might -av,
no, hut he faithfully represented wrote he said ; and when n e
Noble Earl -aid No, no, he ( Lord Brougham) said Nay, nay
It was itrity ssiiile fer him to say what would be the prices
during the next ten yaars. But the alarmists 1-a-t said that
there would be a I--s- of .03. per quarter, or 30s. per acre. Th it
triey -ad would be the effect. o' if is frightful Act, hut th .t
be a begging of the question. It was an assumption the truth
I of which ho could not admit ; he was merely arguiag on his
own figures. Now, let their Lordships just observe ; a farm
that had been let at 820/ upon a thirty eight years' I.a. e prior
to the maroduc ian of this Bill, recently ran out of lease, and .t
was expected ti ere would be no Off--r for it, but not withstand-
ing all th it had been said by the alarmists, it. had been let
since the introduction of this measure into Parliament at
1,050/., being a rise of 2110' a year. What right, t mn, hail
the alarmists to assume that there wet), t be a fall in prices
under 39-4. per acre ? If there were to be -mull a fall, there ought
to be a tall of nearly all the rent. The Noble Earl said so, and
so liere would be. He gallantly asium•.d the fact. He did
not assume as bad reasoner's did, fir he assumed the fact, and at
once attempted an inference Wheat was not theonly grain, there
would •be a diminution pronor tenably in the other grain.
Now he wished to administer a little cemfort to those who
were so much ale:tried. He had get sta-ernerits a- well as
tI-ems--lee. ; he did not attach much value to them, but they
we e as va uable on the one stile as on the other, either for er
against the Bill. New he wished to a--minister this cismfert to
them, because he enterained the greatest i-ste m for these
alarmed individuals. (Laughter. ) He hail received a letter
last week from a genleman en the auhjert of farm lettitig since
the introduction of the Corn Bill. Ihe writer lived in Essex.
which was represented to he an exceedingly alarmed part of
the country—(llear, hear)—end perhaps there was no part
more a armed —(Cries of " Name, n me.") He did not
think that he ought to mertion the name. It appeared th
a term of two hundred acr, s, which was in a very low state of
cultivation, had been sold since the second reading of the Cann
Bill in that House at 36 years' purchase. It was previously
rented at 1201. per annum. and it now realised 600/. He had
reeceived auto her let er from a gentlemen who lived in the
neighbo.irhi od of the Bentiock's property, whose relatives, the
writer said, had made themselves very conspicuous by the uae
of strong language a ,ainst this measure, and he stated that.
land rennet there at the iresent moment ;rem 501. to 901. per
acre.—(Hear, hear. ) Now, he was decidedly opposed to a
a fixed duty, he should certainly prefer the former.—
Hear, hear. ) Because to say that a fixed
twwiti)ulilteprrrer even
atetives,tle
eitheri the
eatisnueiri- thriegtles;cailet he
ditty shriul i be
fiwxaesd
off:( rt Ye
the
supported b•-cause it was a measure of finance was pie-
posterous nonsense. —( I tear, hear. ) 1 here was not a
shadow of tetineation for it. It might be a niemerre
finance, f. r there was an impression that it was ;he urea
of much money to the revenue. His Notre Frieurl said,
why do too object to this fixed outs.. as if it was really auell
a bad thing ? It was a very ,real measure of finance; they
would get a large sum of money by it; they would be enabled to
repeal part of the property-t x. and the duties on toff -e sugar.
&c. They would be enabled to obtain twelve millions of
money by the scheme which he propounded. Projectors wer.
always ex' raordinarily sanguine.
The Nottne LORD—Not twelve millions.
Lord BROUGHAM—WeII, some very laree sum.
'the NOBLE Lo its—tine million from the corn-law.
Lord BROUGHAM— Then he misunderstood him. He
(Lord Brougham) took his stand against a fixed duty because
it wa- a tax on the food of the people.—( Hear, hear.) That
was the meund on which he objectea to it—it brought them
no revenue, no financial int.a.tire. If it b-ought them a
revenue, it was a t x upon the food of the peopl,. His Noble
Friend attempted to show that it would not raise the price of
grain in the home ma- k. t. Why. giacirtua heaven !how was
that? If the price of grain was 355. in the home market—he
meant the price cf grain impoited trom a fo,eign country,
from DantsM, for instance, or Odessa—if that grain could be
bold but for the fixed duty at 35a., if they did not clap on ss.
as a bread tax, and thus make it 40 a, it might have been
origanally sold for 355. before he sat down he really must
allude to one circuins-atice, and that was the very extraordi-
nary condition in which tills question was paced. Tnere had
been a most marvellous combination of ciicumstances at tend •
mg it. 'I here had been a most unheard-of and unearalL led
singularity and critical position, with respect to all the par-
ties connected with it. The candid judges of its merits, the
open enemies of the measure, and the self-reamed friends of
the measure, feel no very cordial attachment to the friends o.
the measure. There had been the most extraordinary con-
catenations of singular, inconsistent, and conflicting elemen-s,
forming one general, grand, and, as he hoped, as triumphant
result as had ever taken place upon any question.—( Hear. )
Then up got a Noble Lord and stated that a change of Go-
vernment was inevitable, and that, therefore, the enemies to
the Bill—but who voted for it to maintain the Government—had
no longer any reason to lend their support ; and he gave a lec-
ture to his Noble Friend as to what course he ought to pursue
when he would obtain office. It was a lecture, to be sure,
highly refreshing to those whom it concerned, hut he could n..t
say as much for it to those whom it did not. But it' it we'e
true that the Ministry were to go out, why then he ( Lord
Brougham) could only say the Bill was lost because
there was a good number of persons who voted for
it—
not liking it, but because they di-liked his Noble
Friend more. But he did not agree in this change of
the Ministry by any means, and a shirt time would tell who
was the hest prophet. There were no more honest men than
the protectionist Lords, and he had the greatest respect for
them, thoug.i he did not agree with them in all their opinions,
nor did he agree with them on this question of the torn Bill.
But there was some advice given by the Noble Marquis to the
Protection party, and given in the strongest manner—not to
think of anything so foul as a coalition with the party who
were opposed to the Minister. He would tell the Noble Lord
there was no danger of any such thing. Well, then, his Noble
Friends showed a kind of disinclination to any change takieg
place. It they did not wish it why did they not postpone the tura
t her pi rice .ding with this Bill, and offer it every opposition, as
they could have done in its other stages ? If they were keen
observers, they would have noticed what was going on in other
places. Meetings were held for the purpose of evincing a
cordial and candid feeling of gratitude for the _ great set
rendered by the Minister, and for the purpose of acting
the
nng hire
being
his difficulties, and prevent any factious(:)ls,y
k it, services
offered to him. He ( Lord Brougham)
coalition between
object of that meeting was for p
"ot-tient. He therefore mist-
object was to turn out the G
"vtewoeld not go out, they would
dered that, as the Govermone:
nist• h e
whom his Noble Friend had en-
deavoured to pan over to
the enemies of the measure
them, that if they adopted the
aledventiiion.gea;:eYrsons whose only
it right to assure •
nd defeating their own vote, by
out the measure, a which they
decided it was necessary to read the Bill a second time,
Hsacidtthhearteffoorret
~caollheoduurspohanen dht
doe
amendment, the Bill was lost, for it would be morally throwing
Noble Lords to reject the amendment.
Lord S cANLBY considered that when his Noble Friend
been listening to a disco sion, of which " not the chide, nor the
goe intoen
commenced
mhmi
si t
,e.be. upon
greater part, nor the major part, nor a large
portion, nor indeed
achy rertwa tlisevxd tv the
plat 4t issue."

So well he I igned."
But not to delay their Lcedships longer, he would say, that
if they were not empowered to make an amendment,
it was useless for them to have the Bill before them, and he
considered that it was no infringement upon their Lordships'
privileges to say that they could riot alter the Bill without re-
jecting it altogether. To say that they had no voice in the
settlement of the measure, because the alteration of a single
clause was fatal to a money Bill, was not treating their Lord-
ships fairly. What was the use of having the it easure before
them, if they could not modity it wh•,n they considered it ne-
cessary, and especially when it so much affected their own in-
dividual Interests ? When the Government proposed, on a new
resolution of the House of Commons, to suspeed the opera-
tion of the present corn-laws, a remonstrarete having beets
made on the improeriety ot such a cour,e without consulting
their Lordships, the Gevernmeet acquiesced in it. His Nob•e
and Learned Fr end alluded to the Ref 'Pm Bill, hut he had
torgte ten the circums•ances that attended it, though he was
then one of the Governmeet. The Reform Bill was lost, for
it was carried by a majorit: of I, and the Government- thou ht
i' right to appeal to the C1,111.1.ry. It was not thought in th,ee
days either inexpedient or uriconstitutional to reter to tee
sense of the country—( Hear, hear)—and the country did main-
tain the Government. The Bill was sent up to the it Lent-
ships, and they made an amendment in it which was f tal o it
A new Bill was then sent up, anti their Lortisnine ultimately
a...:reed to it, Now, he did riot see what parallel
there could be drawn between the two cases.
And another precedent of the Noble Lord had failed him.
His Noble Friend went on to say that the price might be in-
creased ss. and more than ss. io the ev, nt of a fixed duty being
Imposed to that amount. He ( Loid Stanley) did not un-
derstand that argument. He cool i not understand how the
Noble Lord could state that a duty of ss. would increase the
price of corn more than 55.--( Hear, hear.) He would now
allude to the conclusion of his address, where he referred to cer-
tain combinations against this liill. Thee combinations
and coalitions he entirely disbelieved, and so far as the party
with whom he acted was concerned, he absolutely repudiated
and denied their existence. He agreed, however, with the
Nob.e Earl, who sat down betore the Noble Lord, that the
measure was supported by a strange combination of parties in
both Houses—a majority of whom he sincerely be-
lieved disapproved of the measure, and he agreed
also in the discretion of the Nettle Earl who s7id
that he would risk his chance of going to an election
on this measure. —( Hear, hear.) He agreed with him al-o in
thinking that the Government would have a strong di-inclina-
tion to exercise a similar discretion.—( Loud cheers.) Tnev
rested their case upon ream', justice, and upon pubic opinion,
and they would not. be deterred trout canvassing its merits from
any aeprehen-i in they taught elitertain iif the fate of the sugar
duties, the Coercion Bill, or any worse chaece of defeat tit
which the Government might be suhjec'ed —( Loud cheers. )
He supposed they should be overpowered, hut if they should be
they would place before the country their case, and also
place before it the adinissions made by two Noble Lords
on the other side—that but fur the fortuitous combination
of partit s this Bill would never have been brought forward
His Noble ant Learn, d Friend said that. Gevernment would
not resign. That. appeartted to hint 1 Lord Stanley) a very
strange assertion of the Noble L-ird. His Noble Friend, how-
ever, spoke like a mon who theuget the Government wi re
stroog:y settled in power; bu thoiteh tie did riot doubt the since-
city of the Noble L int he nad very serous d Ors w!,ettser his
aivicipatitm4 he realised, and it they were riot ~e did not
hulk the country eeuid suffer by the change.—(Loud cheers )
He would now state the reasons why he supported the
principle of the fixed ditty, though he did ni t altogether ap-
prove of it. At an early period of his life he hail expressed an
re, inien in favour of a fixed duty, but in consequence of the
communica'r ns he at that time tad with Mr. Husktsson,
he ha.t te en persusdeil by that Gentleman to a, opt the
principle of the sliding-scale and his experience
had sole, enabled him to -ay that the cheiree had been a good
one The sli ling-scale was productive of good to thc producer
in times ..f abui.dance, and to the cion,unue, in times of sc ,reity;
and it e weir now caned upon to crioo-e a measure of pro ee-
ton, he would itifioitely prefer the sliding-.cite to the fixed
duty. It the amendment now proposed had been brsught
forward at an earlier ,rage of the Bill, holding the opinions he
dui Upon a fixed duty. he would have oppo-ed i ; hut, under
p event circumstances, he sh run support it. Their Lordships
had rejec•ed a proposition fur a sliding-scale, anti they
were new called mein to vote for a fixed duty. Under these
circumstances, therefore he should vote for the latter.
In alitition howest r, to its other advantages, in point u,
revenue a fixed duty was not to be oterleoked. Ne Agreed
with the Noble [surd, who stated that danger was to be appre-
hended in charg rig the principle of indirect to direct taxi
If they were to go on reducing their surptus revenue. and
s,critice it year after sear. and with a view of making reduc-
tions on the prey nt that danger would be mete. able.
and the consequence would be that inst• a t to a three seat -'
income ,ax of the present amount. they would ha.e an iticreased
aed a perpe tell one. He war tel hem. therefore, eg 'lust the
dangerous nature of the resent measure. They tint not keow
wro the Government might be at the expiration of
hree years, anti notes it hstaecling the assu:ance of
'he Noble Lord, he doubted very much whether
the present Government would occupy that position.
The might have en t intire new Parliament, and hef ere the.
Bill came into operation there might also be a nee Govern
merit. Why not wait till that peri, d the rigor of the people
i,f this country demanded it—an i if ever tnere was a right
most dear to the people, it was a right to be consulted on a
question of this magnitude. They had a right to a voice on
such a measure, and if they had at all a right to be app -alert
to now was the time. —(Cues of Hear, hear.")
He agreed with the argument,. of the Noble Lout on
the cross-benches that this measure would never have
been brought forward, but tor the combination of
parties alien 'o the priiic,plea of the party who proposed the
measure, and wf o fist brought it forward for other moives
than tl.at of passing it into a law.-fc heers )
The Ala-tquis f LAN,DO‘VNE hoped that the House
would soon be delivered from the pre-ent d'si;ussion, and
proceed with other important bust es. 't he NWe and
Learned Lord had addressed their L dshii a ti a tright to
lsngnaee peculiar to him 3 on the chimerical tears of those
opposed this measure, but the Noble aria Learned Lord
had chimeras of hi. own. Fleas. hear, mid laughter )
He (the Al ,rqt is of Lansdowt et had not sought his
niormation from time same c han els as his Ntibet
and Learned Friend. His Noble Frond hail stated that a
meeting was cal'ed in a private hewe with regtird to this Bill
end for the purpose of adopting measuies by a coal-icier)
of varies for the defeat of the einis'ets ;' and, of coutse; for
'he purpose of aeso defeating the ques•ion Were the Home.
Now, he could say that the meeting at that private heuse *as
not in any way connected with the present. question—it was
connected with the Coercion Bill—s Hear, heat.) The sub-
ject entertained at that meeting was to agree not to protract
the discussion upon the Coercion Bill ; and he would not allow
his Noble Friend, at whose house ti at meeting was heln, to be
the subject of misrepresentation with reti se that meeting.
He entirely agreed with the arguments of his Noble Friend,
the late secretary for the C ninnies, on m Irby points. He
would adhere to ihe course which he had always exprersed,
and which he thought the proper course to take on any
great question—namely, that that which would confer the
greate-t amount of benefit on the people was that which
ahouid he adopted with respect to the pleseni question. He
conaideredt hat the final settlemsnt of the measure was of per-
manent importance.—(clear, hear.) It was one which should
he placed on such a basis as would leave no room for a
future cause of corn plant. He had never supported aie thing
like a fixed duty in any other s n•e than as a fixed (tut)
for the purposes of rev, 11,1 V. HI, Nuh,e avid lea,ned Nritenrl
in 1825 opposed tkie ,1 ding-sea e ; kw said he cared not
ier that scale. he cared not fir it at all, a..d he waited
none ef it. He thougl tat that time that a low fixed duty
Im,, be desirable for a reventee but now he objected to that
course.—(Hear, hear.) "lice Noble Lord who spoke
last, and the Noble Earl on the cross-beccOes, said
that they props. d to adept the child of
those who supported the measure. Now it was
well known that if hey were to ad that child, and that it
were to fall into the tender mercies of the Noble Lords, it
would, under their nurture, be found that in less than six
mouths it would cease te have existence at all. The Noble
Lords would adopt that rhibi for the put po-e of repeating the
pre-ent measure, fir it' the amendment before the House
should be adopted there would bu a chance of altogether
throwing out the Bill, anti text there wouto be a chance of a
dissolution of Parlia,neor.—( Hear, heae. ) He was ready
to make saer,fices fir the purpose of settling the question,
He scold prophecy that • free the Lose of a few years the
question would riot be left in the position it now was. for it
would not b' possible to raise any discussion on it then, if,
its effects would be such at., he expected. If. how-
ever, the effects would not be such. and the landed interest
was seriously affected, then he believed there would be no
difficulty in inducing the Legislature to reconsider the question,
so as to effect an alteration favourable to the agricuf oral in-
terests. He sus ported the Bill, not because he thought it
w,iuld rause a great or sudden depreciation in the price of food,
but because it would operate to prevent any great rise in the
price of that ar icle.—( Her-.) He for one had no fear of any sud-
den importat tone of foreign grain taking place, such as to disturb
to any extent the markets o; this country. They had Ireland
lying by them, with cheap labour, so as to inundate them with
produce reduced in value, arid yet that had not taken place.
In Ireland they had 1,10,1,000 cultivators of the land, which
raised about fourteen milnms in value yi arly, while to this
country there was a less nuntber of agriculturists, and yet they
raised the produce to the amount of thirty. four millions, se
that five Irish labtaurers did not produce more than two Eng-
lish ones. There was, therefore, no danger from Ireland ; and
if there was none from that quarter, they need not apprehend
any from countries that were much mere distant.—( Hear.) On
these grounds he must support the Bill before the House, and
resist the amendment proposed by the Noble Earl l Wicklow.)
Lord BBOUGHANI rose se explain. When such per-onal
allusions were made as had been by the Noble Marquis who had
just sat down, he felt it his duty to occupy the House a short
time in explanation. The Noble Marquis greatly misappre-
hended him if he thought that he ( Lord Brougham) meant to
cast any reflection on him. The Noble AI irquis had said that
he ( Lord Brougham) had ()Wait ed information of what had
passed in private habitations in a surreptious manner—
thatstifi. he had derived it in a secret and unjustifi-
able able way. To that statement about publisiiiding
anewer,
had passed in private dwellings, he .
what if there were reporters at the
ferred to, or, if not reporters. at least
actually a report of the meeting appenareiveli.:py`"
morning ?
leanngdth that
of
half a column, in a newspaper,
o°rt of that length, setting
,!.p.rrtv4ti:tcrieere,eting re-
( Hear.) He at least had read a Trip
ands the parties who were
forth what had passed at the meeting,
present
tointiLetitahhtti::areenbeiemnpritnipceorrrteocr 8711
appeared. A friend came to
pthreeste,nroteaete,tegms.e.ertitobt.
report
expressed great
alarm at the de.
vision, only he stated that it was privately determined to
thereh e doubtrepo:..ttf, Ihda having g
delay the Coercion Bill as much as possible with
in the House of
Commons till the Corn Bill was secure.—(Hear, hear. )
He had seen two others who gave another version
of the proceeoing, but who adini'ted something kept
back from the published report, and that the g was ept
feeling of those
present at the meeting was, that thouoth
no resolution was
agreed to, they would take care that the e
Coercion laid debate.
should not close till the Corn Hill was safe through the House
of Lords. Such was the information,
out of a private divellina but which was riot ferreted
lto be met with at Coe club,
houses, and every other Public
(Cries of " Divide, divide.") they
of
would3olitical resort,.—
. persist in crying
out to interrupt him, he should
tm,
House, and speak on
the motion then. His object was
to set himself right with the House on the subject,
He must detain their Lordships a few minutes longer. He did
complain there was two hours' debate, and that during the
whole of that time they had spoken so wide of the subject before
them, but he was much more surprised at the vette, serious
charge whicti the Noble Lord had made against him, and
whit-h, if he did not explain or retract, he ( Lord Brougham)
should most indignantly repel, cast from him, and repudiate
the insinuation with which the Noble Lord closed his remarks.
He (Lord Ikeushaw) dig Itate that he believed the present