The Sun.
London, England, 1841-05-04 00:00:00

IVENING EDITION.

tnetof, and would inculcate obedience to their decision.
Butthat it was contained in the articles of the Confession
of 'aith of the National Church, that the Lord Jesus had
appinted it a head distinct from the C!vil Magistrate, and
tha in all things with respect to doctrine and disiplin(
tha judicature poescssed an exclusive jurisdiction, an'
tha they would enforce submission to the same on el 3
oflie bearers and members of the Church. Now if cv'
the was a distinct claim of independence and spiritui IL
suremacy it was contained in this resolution.—( Hear.; t
Tlo decision of the Courts of Law in Scotland was cot& •
fined by their Lordships' House, yet, notwithstan diW
the the Act was attempted to be enforced by the Genesi I
Asembly. These petitioners having acted in obedien
tothe law, had incurred the displeasure of the Gene tl
Asembly, and were suspended, and all that remained a e
fo the Assembly to pronounce sentence of final depositie
If this were done, he begged to call their Lordships' et-
totion to the circumstances. By the Act of 1592 sill
these parishes would become vacant., and the patrons be
diprived of all the profits of the benzfieee, and it t ns
(len to all the heritors of land to refuse to pay the mi
te his stipend. Ho would then bo obtig ed to bring, he
kiew not how many actions, against he know not bolt
nany heritors, and would moreover have to, pay expe uses.
Vhat then would his Noble Friend do ? I V,ould he awn-
din or maintain the presentee of the Crown .? If he abate-
dined him he would take part with the Ct. torch against
e:e law ; if he maintained him, he would take t be ot'seee way.
The General Assembly was about to meet u7ader very
trying difficulties. The dominant party the xiset.ves said
tlat either of two things must be done,_eithe. r the minis-
tars of Seattibogie must be displaced or the Church of
frootland woula be annihilated. If the latter part of the
aternative should happen, it would be the fai slt of these
gentlemen themselves for not obeying the law. The injury
ts the individuals in the present case was of lit tle import-
ance compared to the evil of allowing matters tit remain as
they were. He regretted that his Noble Friend Lord M.)
snutted to have declared in the first instance thee i he watt
ant listen to any proposition from the Church, until, as •
sreliminary, the law was obeyed. Instead of ti hat course
acing taken the whole current of Government patronage
had flowed amongst the supporters of the Genera 1 Aisem-
bly.—( Hear, from the Tory Benches.) He tht ught tbo
time was come when something definite should be done.
His Noble Friend (Lord Melbourne) ought me w, before
the meeting of the General Assembly, to declare explicitly
that the law shall be obeyed. His Noble Fric n d might
then go further, and say that the question should be takes
into his consideration with a view to settle the d fferences.
If matters were allowed to remain as they were, the cease'
quence would be that there would be two church( is in every
parish—one, the support and prop of the State-- The other,
the support and prop of the General Assembly. ' ['he Noble
Lord concluded by expressing his hope that his Noble
Friend would express a firm and decided determ to
enforce the law.
The Duke of ARGYLL was gird that the s iribject bed,
been brought so fully before the House, and he trusted
that some measure would be adopted for settling; this long'
disputed question.
Viscount MELBOURNE said his Noble Friend bad
gone into the whole of this question. Ho ha d properll,
stated that this was a question between t hit Church et
Scotland and the high legal authorities. W.lsc.n his Noble
Friend said he trusted the Government wrotuld support
civil rights, he held no hesitation in saying that .it would do,
so ; but when he went on to say that he hoped he weal&
introduce some legislative ;masure for the set dement 01
the question, he could not give any promise to tthat effeet•
Under a Constitution like ours, cowposed of so many dif-
ferent bodies, differences of this kind would arise ; but it
was not in such cases the duty of the Government imme-
diately to interfere to prevent them. He was not willing,
upon the expectation of certain conduct in the Assembly,
to join in any measure affecting their eights. Ha would
not undertake to introduce any measure alt ering the eta'
stitution of the Church of Scotland. Until he saw some
other ground then yet existed, he would not bind himself
to a step of which he could not see the result:. His Noble
Friend had made seine complaints of the coerduct of the
Government with reference to this matter. 'The Govern-
ment had stated to the Assembly their disapproval of the
conduct which had been pursued; and he (Lord Mel'
bourne) did not see whet advantage would halve been de-
rived from breaking off all commuraication with them; rs
his opinion, it would only have jam-teased theix violence.
Unquestionably the Government would maintain and sup-
port the law, but he could not give any promise of a die'
tinct measure on the subject.
The Earl of ABERDEEN wished to say a fe w words
on this subject. The only offence charged .gait tat there
men was, their obedience to the law, as it bad been
down by this House. Throughout they had done nothing
except in compliance with judgments delivered against
themselves. They had done nothing but what, i.f the,
had done it of themselves, would have laid them open 0
censure. The Noble Viscount said he would maintala
and uphold the law, but be would not interfere to put ,at
end to their difference_. Why, the dominant party in the'
Church refused to submit themselves to the judgments O'
that House ! Were their Lordships prepared to sanction
that conduct? When the State recognised and mecloviele
them as an Established Church, they imposed certain
conditions upon them. If they were to resist the Aet °II,
der which they had existed as an establishment, b'
could the laws be maintained, except by. measures We%
compelling their submission ? (Hear, hear, hear e
As the law at present stood it was openly violated and We':
tcmned, and he trusted it would not be allowed to cep'
tinue in such a position. He would not say there
actuallyt rhe ba ec lt liosonf ,
vbi
oe ci
ea
nt
ee t h
ande y w
certainly,
r e a pt t
although
t ouconnectgh
theseeeG
Rev. Gentlemen had not arms in their bands, they
indulged in the most violent and inflammatory harangues'
It appeared to him that the present Government were in'
directly countenancing these parties—they had lately ter
eeinted to a Professorship in Edinburgh one of the most
~F;jet,: of these reverend agitators. It appeared to bin?,
that ft she' matter was properly taken up, there was little
doubt a risease..-e might be framed which would at oars -
afford the regale-it,' protection to the law, and put an end
to the present most die;raceful agitation. He hoped, not... "
withstanding the little inierese the subject excited in dolt'
House, that her Majesty's Government would grapple
with the question in a spirit of earnestoess, and set it
finally at rest. They must eventually decide whether of
not the law should be supported.
The Marquis of NORMANBY said he did
not profess
himself competent to grapple fully with the ieehject, bet
the answer which his Noble Friend near him had given £0
the Noble Earl was the only answer he could give"
namely, that it was the determination of the Govern-
ment to maintain and uphold the laws. He thought the
charge of the whole stream of Government patron&V
having flowed towards those who violated the taw*
was not earranted by the facts. So far agi
he (the Marquis of Normanby) was concerned, (reser
the time be had held the seals of his present office it bald
been his anxious endeavour to discharge his duty withotre
favour towards any party. As regarded Church patronage
in Scotland, in all cases of doubt it bad been the practice of
the Government to appoint a loot, and he understood the„,
practice had given very general satisfaction. With mom
to the appointment to which the Noble Earl had referred,
he had made inquiries into the character and attainments
of the individual and his capabilities of filling a situation'
so intimately connected with the doctrines and practice 06
the Church of Scotland, and he understood the appoint-.
mcnt had given very general satisfaction. He would add,.
however, that the Professorship was not intended to be &

permanent appointment.
Lord MEL VI L L E said, unless some decided steps 7,,ere
taken by the Government to vindicate the law, their mere
declarations of their intention to do so would be wort),

nothing. They should call upon the Lord Advocate to
pratect those who obeyed the law.
The Marquis of NO RM ANB Y explained.
The Earl of RODEN implored their Lordships not to
come to any decision respecting the petition until some op-
portunity had been afforded to the Assembly of the Church

of Scotland for explaining what had induced them to
adopt the course they had pursued. He was certain the
eminent men composing that Assembly must have bad

some reason for the eourse they were pur,uing. TheY
might be in error, but from what he knew of them he felt

convinced that they were actuated by conscientious rue-
tives. There was no Church which had improved more j"
its ministers than the Church of Scotland had within the
last few years. He held in his hand a petition from the
Presbyterian Church in Ireland, praying for the total
abolition of patronage, but he did not believe the Church
of Scotland desired any such thing.—( Hear, hear.) AU
they desired was that certain impediments which the laW
threw in the way of the execution of their duty should be
removed. He trusted the Assembly in Edinburgh would
pause before they came to any determined resolution, and
would take the advice of their best friends.

The Earl of HADDINGTON said that other °ppm'
tunities would arise to satisfy the mind of his Noble
Friend on the question. Ha would implore him to decline
taking any part until he had thoroughly satisfied himself,
by fully investigating the question. The Presbyterian
Church in Ulster was in a very different situation from dip
Church of Scotland. Nothing could be more likely to
encourage the Church of Scotland in the course they were
pursuing, than the Government acting as they had done,
in giving up the Government Church patronage into the
hands of the congregations. The interdict of the Court
of Session, which was the law, had beon treated with'
the greatest contempt by the Church of Scotland. flow
would the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack treat

any parties who should treat injunction with the same
sort of contempt and defiance ? The evils which would
result from the deposition of these ministers, would be in-
calculable, and he beseeched the Government to adopt
measures to prevent it.
The Marquis of N OR MANB Y said that the practice of
the Governrneht of leaving the appointment of ministers to
tlio Crown livings by the congregations had been adopted
le( re these troubles had commenced.

The petitions were then laid on the table.
MR. STANLEY.

The Earl of G L ENG ALL in bringing forward the
motion of which he bad given notice, relating,
to the fal,i•
ficatiof sof the returns from the Poor-law Commissioners
in Ireland, felt it would not be necessary for him to dilate
at any length upon the grate nature of the offence which
had been committed. It had been clearly proved that the
returns were incorrect, and there could be no doubt that a
breach of privilege had been committed ; but it was more
than that, it was a gross contempt of their Lordship's
House. Ile believed it was the first instance of such an
offence having been committed. In the returns which had
been ordered, certain letters were incorrectly given, and
others were placed in a position calculated to mislead.
He concurred in this transaction, and the Poor-law Com-
mission Office best acted in a way in which no other public
department would pre,ume to do. There was another
point of importance—namely, that it appeared to be the
opinion of the Commissioners that in their correspondence
it was not necessary to confine themselves to truth, and
that, consequently, they were in the habit of writing that
which was convenient rather than that which was troc-
he thought there had net been for many years an investi-
gation of greater importance, and their Lordships' would
think so if they would reflect that it was upon this Act that
the future f•-anchicg of the people of Ireland would in all
probahiiitv he based. Ile regretted to say that he found
it very difficult to reconcile with truth the evidence that
bad been given at their Lordships' bar ; but, on this point

E V'EN I NC4 ED ETIOPN

1.:.,1114 reserve hi,-rrelt for a future oppor unity. Sup-
posinl,- 13.:eir. Lordships should adopt his resolution, he war
'not sirnus that any very severe unish-rent should be
bar red in consequence, for he coupld not but think Mr.
Str nley had been the dupe of persons subtler than him-
"! f.-....(Hear, hear.) He could not reconcile it t) his
Wind tnat there were no -motives for this transaction. He
Pilid not wish to enter upon discussion of motives, but he
•trustncl the Noble Marquis (Normanby) would not, by his
reply compel him to throw aside the pruning knife he was
disposed to apply, and to take up the Hear, bear. )
He therefore begged leave to move, " That Mr. William
Stanley, Secretary of the Poor-law Commissioners in [re-
lated did, in contempt of the authority of this House, make
alteration in a paper ordered to be laid before this
*House after the order of this House had been received by
him."---( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of WICKLOW felt himself bound to state
that he thought the resolution proposed was more severe
than the circumstances of the case required. He could not
think that any thing more was iotendcd by Mr. Stanley
than to remove a discrepancy, and that he had acted with-
out the instigation of any other person. But if such were
he ease, be thought Mr. Stanley was not the person who
shooldbe punished. No charge of corruption was made
against that gentlemen, and, under these circumstances,
lee could not vote foe the present motion, although, if ii
had spoken only of a breach of privilege, he should not
lave made any remark- upon it. lie thought the Noble
Marquis had de ne an act of great injustice in dismissing
that gentlemau 'aefore the House had come to any decision
upon it. In spying this he thought he was only doing an
act of simple justice to an individual.
Lord EL tesENBOROUGH said that Mr. Stanley was
the only parson selected for punishment, because be was
the only -person with whom, at the present time, the House
'was able to deal. He felt that a great contempt of the
authority of the House had beers committed, and that it
was 'afecumbent upon the House to visit it with such a
Purd'shment as would tend to preclude a repetition of it
at -any future time.—(Hear, hear-)
The Marquis of NORMANBY said he felt it nee is-
'eery, in his own defence, to offer a few remarks on what
had fallen from his Noble Friend, the Earl of Wicklow.
.He was glad that some of his remarks had been antici-
pated by the Noble Baron (Lord Etlenborough.) Though
he was anxious that any appeal on behalf of this gentle-
man should have its full weight upon the House, when
his Noble Friend said he (the Marquis of Normanby) had
acted wish injustice, he begged to call his attention to the
situation in which the Government would be placed if it
had appeared to have connived at such an act as that which
bad been the subject of investigation. He had before
stated that, however unimportant some parts of this case
weight appear to be, a great constitutional question was
involved in securing the correctness of the Returns or-
tiered by either House of Parliament. This much of the
act itself, in considering which and its consequences, be
did hope their Lordships would also consider the
period at which it took place, the limited esta-
blishment with which this great experiment commenced,
and the momentous business which, for the first few
months, pressed upon them. As to the resolution of con-
tempt of the authority of the House, he could not but
think that every person who had heard the evidence would
think that Mr. St inley had been guilty of that offence.
He was glad to hear his Noble Friend show a distinction
with respect to the motives. Mr. Stanley had a motive to
conceal his error, but unfortunately had not presence of
mind to avow it; nevertheless, no word should fall from
biro. (the Marquis of Normanby) to induce their Lord.
ships to deal harshly with this case. But if their Lord-
ships thought it of importance that every person cone
netted with the important duty of carrying out this mea-
sure should be above suspicion, he trusted they would also
be of opinion that the Government would not discharge
their duty if they did not dismiss from his situation an in-
dividual, who, by evidence at their Lordships' bar, had
been preyed guilty of such an offence as this. His
Noble Friend had cautioned him (the Marquis of
Normanby) not to provoke him to exchange the
pruning knife for the axe. He (the Marquis of Nor-
manby) did not know whether it was intended that on his
devoted bead that axe should fall, but even at the
risk of incurring such a penalty, he would say that he be-
lieved that it was the intention of the Commissioners to
•execute the law with impartiality, and that not only was
such the intention of the Government, but that they had
adopted all the means in their power for the purpose.
The evidence of Mr. Herne proved this to have been the
intention of the Government, and he said that he had
never seen a Government so determined in every respect
son to interfere with the distribution of patronage. His
Noble Friend had alluded to a mysterious veil that still
hung over the matter, and which his knowledge of
'Clonmel would enable him to penetrate ; but of this he
(the Marquis of Normanby) knew nothing but the evidence
at their Lordships' bar. He thought the act committed by
Mr. Stanley was such that he could not be centinned in
his present situation ; but, at the same time, it was but
justice to enat gentleman to say, that all who knew him
spoke of Lim as a gentleman of unimpeachable integrity.
Considering the importance of carrying out this Act in
Iselsand, he agreed with his Noble Friend that it was all
iurportant that the Poor-law Commissioners should not
sieseer the slightest bias to influence them in the appoint-
'ere at of any officer.
After a few words from Lord ELLENBOROUGH
and the Marquis of WESTMEATH,
Tue Duke of WELLINGTON said he conceived the
resolution was very correctly worded, and that the these
must pass teat resolution. He had contended all along
that it was not Mr. Stanley, or any inferior person, who
eras to bo the subject of their Lordships' considera-
tion, beet the conduct of the Poor-law Commissioners
themselves. —( Hcar, hear.) Ile had consented to the
Bill, and joined in passing it on the principle that it should
bra fairly carried into execution. He bad been entirely dis-
appointed, and as to this matter he was resolved to probe it
to the very bottom. There were other cases, and he would
read every line of the papers, and search if there was not
the. same corruption in each of them as in this one. To do
4astice to the gentry and men of property in Ireland who
were in the hands of these miscreants, they must force them
to do justice.—( Hear, hear.) There was another case of
one of the returning officers who bad been convicted of
forgery, and had been in the hulks, yet who was now exe-
cuting that office and the power connected with it in Ire-
land. He had the proof in his pocket that it was the same
'man. It was said that no questions had been asked respect-
ing him, except whether he was related to a person called
an Archbishop. Now that he (the Duke of Wellington)
called stuff.—( Hear, bear.) They could not do justice to
Ireland unless they took the subject fully into considera-
tion, and took precautions to carry the Act fairly into exe-
cution.—( Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY explained that, on a
former occasion with reference to this individual, he had
merely stated that he had been informed that there was a
doubt of the identity of the party, whioh, however, he
found had been since removed. So venial, however, was
the offence considered, that the clerk of the peace in whose
service he was, had afterwards retained him in a confiden-
tial situation. The offence was that of attempting to pro-
cure for another party a soldier's pension after the death of
tho pensioner.

h

The Duke of WELLINGTON made a few observa-
tions that were inaudible.
The Marquis of W ESTME ATH said the Roman Ca-
tholic Clergy had made this a religious question altogether.
Be rejoiced at the manner in which the Noble Duke had
taken it up.
The Earl of GLENG ALL replied, be was satisfied tba.,
their Lordships would be convinced, when the Ch9nreel
case came to be sifted thoroughly, that his statements
were well founded. He did not think one-half the truth
bad yet come out. He was surprised to hear the Noble
Marquis term Mr. Stanley's situation one of no conse-
quence, because the salary was only from 10/. to 30/. per
annum. Why, in a Parliamentary borough, like Clonmel,
the office of returning officer was a most important one,
and he might, by a particular mode of valuing the town,
return any mat he pleased.- He contended that the
motives for these appointments, and all the evidence fully
bore out that statement.
Tha motion was then agreed to, and ordered to be en-
tered on the Journals of the House.
The Earl of GLENGALL then moved that Mr. Stanley
be ordered to attend at the bar of the House on the 14th
instant.

The Marquis of NORMANBY had reason to ti,ink
that t:oe dignity of the House would be sufficiently sathficd
with,)ut proceeding further. He thought the House bad
inflicted sufficient punishment without calling him to the
bar. That, however, was a question for their Lordships'
consideration, but ho would remind them that Mr. Nichols
stated at the bar on his oath that Mr. Stanley's state of
health and nervousness was such, from even an examination
at their Lordships' bar, that he believed it would endanger
his life if he had remained another day in attendance. He
put it to their Lordships, therefore, whether their dignity
bad not been sufficiently vindicated without proceeding
further.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH thought the course his
Noble Fclend had adapted was the most lenient that could
be taken. But after the itat-ment of the Noble Marquis
that Mr. Stanley no Linger held office under the Corn-
missioneru, and that his health was likely to suffer, he
thought they might be satisfied with having that statement
entered is the Journal.

The Earl of GLENG ALL, under the circumstances,
would not press his motion.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH then moved that a Lord
having stated that it consequence of the resolution just
passed by the House, Mr. Stanley hal ceased to hold
office as Secretary to the Poor-law Commissioners, and
that he was in so nervous a state of mind that the turther
prosecution of the matter would be seriously injurious to
his health, the motion was by leave withdrawn.
The Marquis of NORM ANB Y explained that he had
made the statement on the authority of Mr. Nicholl's evi-
dence, i.shich their Lordships had also heard.
The .Earl of GLE NGA LL then moved that a copy of
the minutes of the Board on the subject of the resignation
of Mr. 'Stanley be laid ( n the tab'e.—Agreeci to.
The Marquis of NORMA NH Y laid on the table a fur..
ther Report of the Commissioners on the best line of rail-
way communication between London and Edinburgh.
Adjourned at Half-past Nine o'Clock.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 3.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition from certain
individuals against the Edinburgh and Glasgow Canal Bill.
On the motion of Lord G. SOMERSET, the Newport
Docks Bill was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Lord SANDON, the Liverpool Dock
Bill was read a third time and passed.
On the motion of Lord SANDON, the Liverpool Lo-
cal Acts Bill was read a second time.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from a
private soldier of the island of Jersey, complaining of
the conduct of the public towards a portion of the military
stationed in the island.
Mr. NEELD presented a petition from Leicester,
gainst the Repeal of the Corn-laws, and from Torquay
in Devon in favour of Church Extension.
Mr. HARLAND presented a petition from Durham,
praying a repeal of the Corn-laws.
Mr. PLUM PT RE presented petitions from Kent against
the County Courts 8111; from Stafford in favour of