The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-21 00:00:00

strong, if not stronger, for this country keeping up its con-
nexion with Canada. He did not think that this should be

regarded merely as a shipping question, or as a class question
but as an imperial question. Now he would call the attention
of the House to the prices of timber in this year and in 1841.
In 1841 the price of Canadian timber was 4/. 10s., and in 1846
it was the same. The price of European timber in 1341
was 5/., and in 1816 it was the same ; therefore, who gained
by the tariff of 1842? It certainly was not the British con-
sumer. On the whole, he felt that he should vote in
favour of the amendment of the Noble Lord, the Member for
Gloucester. But lest it might be said that he was actuated by
pa-ty motives in the vote he should give upon this question, he
thought it right to offer those few observations in explanation of
his reasons fur the vote he intended to give.
Mr. HENLEY said he did not think that sufficient reason

.had been given to the House by the Government for the pro-
posed change. He could not agree with the Hon. Member
for Kendall, that the loss of revenue by the reduction
on
,timber last year had been what he had stated.
The very extraordinary demand that had taken place in the
railway world, had, no doubt, increased the demand for timber
in a great degree; and in a question of the present kind, he
would be disposed to c ;nsider that as very material. He
should say that some of the arguments used by the Right
Itui. Secretary of the Treasury required something like etfi-
cial assurance to bring them forward ; but he forget to tell
the House one thing, namely, that the navy estimates were at
present between six and seven millions. Every person knew
that the timber required for naval building was rather scare.
The shipowners of the country were a highly-protected body,
which should not be lost sight of. The Right Hon. Baronet,
at the head of the Ministry had told the House and the

country that he for one could no longer maintain the principle
of protection; that statement he made broadly and clearly at
the commencement of the present session ; but it did not un-

frequently happen that persons, in snaking liberal statements,
often overshot the mark ; and he (the Hon. Member) then
challenged the Right lion. Gentleman to prove that he
believed in the sincerity of his own statements.-( Hear,
hear.) If he did believe that relaxation or abolition of
duty benefited the community generally why not allow the
Swedes or Norwegians to convey sugar into this country from
the West Indies?--(Hear, hear.) He felt warmly on the
subject for reasons personal to himself ; and he should say that
as certain as effect followed cause so sure would the country,
by adopting those measures, instead of gaining, be exposed to
greater competition -(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUMI should agree in a great measure with the Hon.
Gentleman who preceded him, hut he should also complain of I
the question. He should complain that the duty had not been
entirely taken off, as he knew no article, after provisions, of
more importance to the general community than that of timber.
-( Hear, hear.) What were the circumstances of the ship-
owners? They complained that the materials with which they
built their ships were higher than the materials in foreign
markets. By the paper which he held in his hand he per-
ceived that the hull of a British ship cost from 41. to 5/. per ton
more than that of the foreign built ship ; in fact, the foreigner
could build three ships for a sum of money that would only
build two in England. That was an inconvenience of
which ahipowners complained. In 1815, in the Court of Pro-
prietors in the East India House, he declared that he wished
to 'see the English shipping then at the price of 501. per ton,
reduced to 101. 10s. per ton. He was then regarded as a
visionary. lie would state a very important fact with re-
ference to the duties on timber. In the north of Scotland,
and the coast of Ireland, the timber for boats was 2001. per
cent. dearer than on the continent, and therefore our boats
went to sea in a condition that no foreign boat would venture
out in. The consequence was that many valuable seamen,
as well as the fishermen, were drowned. It was
lamentable to find that a large quantity of
the capital of our shipowners was vested in Norwegian
and Danish ships. He had heard from one shipowner resid-
ing in Lincolnshire, that he was very anxious to build ships in
England, but the price was teo great for him, and he was ne-
cessarily compelled to go to the country where ships were
cheapest. Was this to continue ? The system carried out
by the Right Hots. Baronet said plainly that we would no
longer have our capital employed in foreign ships, but in ships
of our own building. No country possessed such advantages
as England, read no country availed itself of it so little. And
what is the result? We heard in every storm, at least every
now and then, of our fishing-boats going out to the number of
fifty and sixty, and out of that number ten or twelve were
swamped before they could reach a place of safety. He be-
lieved, if the duty were taken off, we could build our ships on
the same footing as the Danes. We had had many proofs of
that effect. He believed that there had been laid on the table
of the House some documents proving the misery of many of
the artisans of this country, and to what was that owing but
to the high price of timber. Those documents proved that
many of them, working for twelve hours a day, instead of
going to a cellar and sleeping in contaminated air, ought to go,
in order to enable them to continue the work the next day, to
a place where they could breathe the pure atmosphere. It was
by the legislation of this House that these unfortunate men
were kept in the state they were. At an age when they ought
to be enabled to cars v out their experience, they were
snore fit for the workhouse, or premature death. Ile
(Mr. Hume) said that every Honourable Member opposing
the reduction of the timber duties was dooming hundreds of
his fellow beings to occupy the miserable cellars he had spoken
of. He would now turn to another point, and look to the effect
on the farmer. Every one nho knew the expense attendant
on farming would know that it was preferable to use the home
timber instead of the American. But the farmers had been
obliged to have recourse to the Baltic and American timber
to enable them to make their buildings with some degree of
stability. If the House would repeal the duties on timber,
they would enable the farmer to carry out his occupation at
less expense and with more benefit to himself and the country.
With regard to the manufacturing interest, if they removed
the duty from timber entirely, they would place our manufac-
ture on a footing with the whole world. There was no article,
next to provision, which he thought would be so beneficial as
timber if the price were reduced. He was, therefore, willing
to vote for the entire repeal of the duty.
Lord G. BENTINCK said that, in rising to approve of the
amendment which was brought forward with so much modesty
-so much ability and perspecuity-by his Hon. Friend the
Member for East Gloucestershire, he assured the House that
in the speech with which he commenced the debate he gave
promise of great future ability. He (Lord G. Bentinck) would
not on Friday last have asked the House to adjourned the dee
bate if he had not thought that the timber duties, mixed es
they were with the condition of our coloni,s, were most impor
tent. The question with regard to them resolved itself into
three different points; first, a condition of the revenue, -and the
relieve that a relaxation of the duty would afford to the people
dyads country. Secondly, it resolved itself into the question
as to how far we should continue to maintain protection iu our
colonies ; and, thirdly, into the consideration whether or not
they should continue to maintain their maritime importance-
(Hear, hear, and loud cheers)-by injuring that portion of
trade which gave the widest and greatest employment to British
seamen. Many returns, and many statements of figures,
had been laid before that House by her Majesty's Ministers
at different times; and at other times those statements
emanated from the Board of Trade. He would commence by
showing how little dependence was to be placed on a super-
ficial observation of the figures returned by the Board of
Trade. A lamented relative of his once said that the last
thing to which he paid any attention, and on which he placed
zny reliance, was a statement of figures and facts that were
made in that House, and that was more especially observable
in the returns of shipping when made by the Board of Trade.
To show how difficult it was to rely on any superficial observa-
tion of the returns of the Board of Trade, it was only neces-
sary to refer to the statement made by Mr. Porter in his work,
with reference to the trade in 1841. In one page of that
voluminous document, the return given is that the total mare-
time force of steam-vessels amounted to 1,700 ships, with a ton•
nage of 3,390,000 tons. The number of steam•vessels we
possess, instead of being 1,700, was upwards of 791, and
the average of their tonnage was only 95,307, though
it bad been swelled to the enormous amount
stated. The result of such a return as this would be, that
if a sloop measured only fifty tons, and manned by only two
men and a boy, were to make two trips in a month to Ostend,
making in the whole year twenty-four trips, that sloop, of
which the wages would be about 741. per annum, would be.
placed on a par with a British Indieman of 700 tons. A re-
t. was placed on the table of the House that morning,
showing the number of ships engaged in the trade of this
country. From this it appeared, that the number of ships
employed in the guano trade was 655, which brought into the
country cargoes annually to the amount of 1,600,000 tons. In
this trade alone there were employed 11,500 seamen, receiv-
ing in wages 200,000/. Now let them compare this trade with
the steam ships of the country, which lad been referred to.
The latter were in number but 791, with a tonnage of 95,736.
There was, therefore, no comparison between a trade which
employed but 5,000 or 6,000 seamen, like the steam-trade,
with a trade like. the guano, that employed 11,500. Such
was the value of the guano-trade in comparison with this other
most important branch of their maritime navy. He would
now proceed to the subject of price. A great deal had been
said on the benefit to the consumer that would arise
from the reduction of the duty on timber, and
how their American colonies would be benefited by
the alteration in the differential duties. A great deal had
been said about the benefits of the alteration in 1842. He
had examined into the question, and would submit his results
to the House. His authority on the Baltic timber was the
house of Messrs. Radcliffe and Co., of Liverpool, and the figures
were derived from a branch of that House in Elsinore. It was
stated that the price of yellow pine in 1839, was 9d. a foot. In
1840 it was being an average on the two years of 94d.
per feet. Taking 1842, the year of which they heard so
much from her Majesty's Government, what was the result ?
Why, that which in 1t3:39 and 1840 cost on an average 91d. a
foot was reduced to 71d. -( Hear, hear.) That was the whole
extent of the reduction. The price of yellow pine in the same
year, 1842, was 40., while the previous year it was 4id.,
showing that the reduction had been iel.-(Hear, hear.)
That was the only difference in the two periods. The re-
duction had been from 13/s per cent. on the one and ten per
cent. on the other.-(Hear.) With regard to Baltic timber, lie
could refer to a pamphlet published by an eminent Member
formerly a Member of the Cabinet, written to show the bene-
fits that were likely to flow from the alteration in the differen-
tia duties. The writer said, at the time he wrote, that the
change had not been long enough in operation to show the
benefits, but that they would be shown in about a twelvemonth
afterwards. He stated that Dantzic and Memel timber in
January, 1812, was 51. 12s. 6d. In January, 1845, the duty
had been reduced 30s. per load. Now what was the price in
the latter year? It averaged from 4'. 17s. to 41. 10s., and it
was reduced at the lowest to 4/. Bi. 9d., so that, comparing the
price of 1845 with that of 1842, the reduction was 1/. 3s. 31.-
( Hear, hear.) Now he (Lord G. Bentinek) would supply the
price of 1846. According to Prince's Price Current, from
which he quoted, the price in January, 1846, of timber for
Dantzic and Memel in the port of London, varied from
4/ 10s. to 5/.---( Hear, hear.) Showing that though
the duty had been reduced 30s. per load, the price to
the consumer was reduced but 10s, 6d. ; the rest of the 30s,
went into the pocket of the foreign grower.-(Cheers from the
protection benches.) Mr. Gladstone, not content with this,
goes to Liverpool to make out his ease. In 1811, he says, that
the prices of Danaic and Memel timber was from 260. to 27d.
per foot. In 1842 it was 25d., while in 1845 it was 20Id. ;
showing that the reduction of 1845, as compared with 1816,
was bid. per foot, which was equal to 275. Id. per load. 1842,
as compared with 1845, showed a reduction of 31d. per foot, or
19s. 10d. per load. In 1841, the foreign producer put 2s. I Id.
in his pocket.-( Hoar, hear.) In Liverpool, during the be-
ginning of the present year, the average price was 23d. to 24d.
In giving Mr. Gladstone the benefit of his year after the new
duties came into operation, and comparing 1846 with 1841, the
reduction in price had only been 13s. 6d. per load, or 3id. per
foot ; and compared with 1842, the reduction
had been but ss. 20. per load. This showed
that out of the 30e. reduction in duty the foreign
producer had pocketed 245. 9id. -(Loud cheers from the Con-
cervative benches.) The trade with Canada had increased,
not because the duty had been reduced, hut on account of the
great extension of the railway system. The continuation of
railways had led to a great demand for timber, and this had
given an immense impetus to this department of foreign trade.
Such was set forth in the printed circular, printed in Liver-
pool, on this -subect.-( Hear, hear.) The great demand
for timber was there attributed to the great num-
ber of railway Bills that had passed the Legislature.
He did net see the Hon. Member for Sunderland in his place,
or he would have appealed to him with confidence whether
a foot the less would be purchased for railway purposes if the
duty had remained the same? He knew well what his answer
would have bees. He; would have deplane& to the House shale
as far as the increased consumption of timber went, that in-
crease arose from railway speculation alone, and not from the
redUction of duty. That reduction of duty necessarily inferred