The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-09 00:00:00

COURT CIRCULAR

Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent visited her
Majesty yesterday at Buckingham Palace.
His Royal Highness Prince Albert rode out on horse-
back yesterday, attended by the Equerry in Waiting,
Colonel Bouverie.

Their Royal Highnesses the Prince of Wales, Prince
Alfred, the Princess Royal, and the Princess Alice, took
their usual walks and rides yesterday in the gardens of
Buckingham Palace.
Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent, attended
by Lady Augusta Bruce and Sir G. Couper, honoured
Drury-lane Theatre with her presence yesterday evening.
Their Royal Hignesses the Duke and Duchess of
Cambridge, accompanied by the Princess Mary, and at-
tended by Baroness Ahlefeldt, Mr. Edmond Mildmay,
and Colonel Keate, went to Greenwich yesterday morn-
ing, and returned to Cambridge House in the afternoon.
Mr. Hogg, M.P., had an interview with Sir Robert
Peel yesterday.
Mr. Hunter had an interview with the Earl of Dal-
housie yesterday at the office of the Board of Trade.
Dispatches were received yesterday at the Colonial-
office from the Governors of the West India Colonies.
DE,

_,A•rit or THE
regret to learn that letters
and
intelligence Countess of Fin
of thga. E. ROBERT PLUNKETT.—WE
death. of the Hon.
liiN. haveE been received from the Earl
, in Italy, which convey the distress-
ing
at Milan on the 27th. ult
second son, who died
deceased was in his 26 i
armyt yea.r, having been born in.
E. R Plunkett, their
1820. He entered the November
honb
being not according to 11in
habitsthe 60th Rifles, but thnvent 'el
The Hon. Gentleman wasisat he retired after a feewseyrviee
Vienna, and had only left the Austrian
tt? the British Embassy at
*0 meat his relatives in Italy,
capital a few months
THE CRESCENT AND THE CROSS,
BURTON, ESQ.—We observe that a fifth By ELIOT WAR-
BURTON,
in-
teresting book has been called for by the on of this
burton brings to his work an accomplished public. Mr.
well-
trainedWar-
and healthful faculties. As I.:viehreeadd mind, and
we are proud to
claim him as a countryman, and are content that his book
shall go over all from i the world, that other countries t may
derive a just impression of our national character
• Mr.
Warburton sailed up the Nile beyond the second cataract,
and inspected those wonders of art in Nubia, whose origin' 's
lost in their antiquity; visited the great cities and monu-
ments of Egypt, then crossed. to Beyrout, made a pilgrimage
in the Holy Land, and on his homeward voyage touched at
Cypress and Greece. His volumes are full of just perception
and sßirited detail. They greatly increase our acquaintance
with Eastern scenes, and to the traveller afford a variety of
information which he could hardly elsewherc, 4nd in so in-
teresting a shape.—Britannia.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
; HOUSE OF LORDS, June 8.
t Their Lordships met to-day at Five o'clock.
THE BROAD AND NARROW GAUGES.
' The Earl of RIPON laid on the table a report from the
Board of Trade relative to the subject of the railway gauges.
MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Messengers from the House of Commons brought up several
Bills, which were ordered to be laid on the table.
BATHS AND WASH-HOUSES FOR THE LABOUR-
ING CLASSES.
The Bishop of LONDON wished for a few moments to
direct the attention of their Lordships to a subject, which,
though not one of great political importance, was still one en-
titled to grave consideration. He had some petitions to present
to them which were important on account of the signatures to
them, but still more so on the subject to which they related.
That subject was intimately connected with the welfare of the
labouring classes, and he craved their favourable consideration
to them. The petitions had reference to the establishment of
baths and wash-houses for the labouring classes, and prayed
that they would pass a law enabling boroughs and parishes, of
a certain size, to borrow money to form such institutions.
The plan was sufficient to pay an ample return for the capital
that might be laid out upon it, but he must remind
their Lordships that it was useless to attempt
to improve the moral condition of the labour-
ing classes unless they at the same time paid some attention
to their physical comfort. Their Lordships might in vain at-
tempt to improve the political and social condition of the
labouring classes, unless they at the same time took the
trouble to promote their individual and personal interest.
—( Hear.) They must first remove the poor man from his
extreme state of destitution, and then they might
endeavour to experiment upon the best means of improving his
spiritual condition—they must relieve him from his extreme
misery before they attempted to attack his as a moral agent,
and this was the only way in which they could at all
expect, with any reason, to improve the moral state
of the labouring classes of society. Their Lordships would allow
they had tested by experience, on a small scale it was true, but
still sufficient to justify their making the experiment on a much
larger scale. In asking, therefore, for an allowance from the
public funds, he was only asking for that which would
make a large return on the outlay of capital that
might be used for the formation of baths and washhouses
The first petition he had to present was from the bankers and
merchants of London, and was signed by the heads of more
than 100 principal firms ; the second was signed by the Chair-
man and Deputy Chairman of the London Dock Company,
who had many thousands of labourers in their employ-
ment. The next was from the churchwareens and over-
seers of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields. The next was from the
guardians of the poor of the same parish. The next was
from the perochial clergy of the metropolis, signed by 120
clergymen ; and he felt assured that if time had been allowed
it would have been signed by every member of the body from
whom it emanated, for they felt it would be bring-
ing the poor more within the sphere of their spiritual
ministrations, and would tend more than anything else to
improve the labouring classes. It should be recollected
that great complaints had been made that hundreds of
thousands in the metropolis were crowded together,
' so that one family occupied one room ; but, in consequence of
the numerous improvements in the metropolis, in many of these
instances, there were now two families crowded into one
room. It did not appear that any provision had been
made against this evil in carrying out those improve-
ments. It should be also recollected that the step
which he now advocated was only as a drop in the ocean.
In consequence of this system of things, a gradual deteriora-
tion had taken place in the physical and moral condition of
these classes. About twenty years since, when he was a
parish clergyman, he knew a house in which there was
sixteen rooms, and in each of these there was a family
consisting of four persons, in all, sixty-four individuals,
but that was not so bad as the present condition of things. In
houses thus thickly inhabited it would clearly be seen the in-
jury which must be felt by washing the linen of the family,
as the houses would be in a constant state of humidity from
the steam. He found that in the town of Liverpool, where
an institution of this kind was established under the sanction
of the corporation of that place, the greatest eagerness was
manifested on the part of the working classes to avail them-
selves of the benefit of the bath. In the year ending 28th of
May, 1846, there were used 3,832 cold baths, and 16,764
warm baths, making altogether 20,596 baths. The receipts
for the year were 3831., being an increase on the
preceding year of 6,667 baths, and 1501. on the receipts.
This showed a desire on the part of the labouring classes to
avail themselves of the benefits of these institutions. A
similar institution was established lately by an association of
benevolent individuls in Glasshouse-yard, a locality where
probably none of their Lordships ever penetrated—
( Laughter)—and the lowest and poorest classes of
society, who could not even be called respectable la-
bourers, were in the habit of resorting to it.
In the second half-year the number of bathers amounted to
14,124, and the number of washers amounted to 19,937, a total
of 63,142 persons benefited ; if to these were added the number
of persons for whom articles have been washed, you
will make a total of 87,0J0 directly benefited,
and the whole of this good had been done
for a sum not greatly exceeding 400/. He need not point out
to their Lordships the immense beneficial effects which must
necessarily arise from such institutions, they were sufficiently
known to their Lordships, arid he would not there.
fore trespass upon them further than to quote the opinion
of a medical man of some experience on the subject.
The petitioners stated that the returns would, in all probabi-
lity, amount in the whole to 13i per cent., and furnish ex-
cellent interest on the capital invested. The petitions were
from a large number of merchants, bankers of the city of
London ; the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Asso-
ciation for the Establishment of Baths for the La-
bouring Classes ; from the Board of Guardians of the
parish of St. Martins-in-the-Fields; one signed by 121 paro-
chial clergymen, which was entitled to special consideration, as
they complained that the want of accommodation for forward-
ing personal cleanliness, interfered with the attendance of the
poorer classes at church. He hoped steps would be taken to
meet this state of things, and that the recreation arid innocent
amusement of the labouring classes, which had been- so little
attended to for a long time, would be now considered.
Unless they provided baths and wash-houies for the poorest
order of the working classes, so as to beget habits of cleanliness,
it would be vain for them to provide' amusement. and instruc-
tion for them by museums or otherwise.
The Marquis of NORMAN BY thought that the Rev.
Prelate owed no apology for introducing so important a sub-
ject. It was a most important question, and in con-
nexion with a subject that had been before the other
House of Parliament—the dwellings of the poor—
one entitled to their greatest consideration.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Rev. Prelate was the first to draw the attention of
the Government to this question and he deserved great praise
for his exertions, and he trusted that he would not confine himself
to simply erecting baths and washhoutes, but go to further
improvements necessary to the health and well being of the
poorer classes of this metropolis.
Lord KINNAIRD said that it was impossible to imagine
the distress and misery existing in this metropolis—it required
occular proof to give any one an idea of its extent. The poor
were crowded together in consequence of the improvements
taking place in other parts of the metropolis. There were
buildings now going on at Bethnal-green, and there was not
one sewer provided for them, and this, he thought, showed
the necessity, and, indeed, he considered it high time that a
Board of Health should be established.
ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.
Lord KINNAIRD said he had to present a petition on the
Electric Telegraph Bill, the report of which was to be brought
up this evening.
The Duke of BEAUFORT objected to its reception, as
being needless.
Lord KINNAIRD said that the petition was based on public
grounds.
Lord BROUGHAM—Give us its prayer.
Lord KINNAIRD said that this was a subject of great
public interest, and the object of this petition was to prevent
the carrying of this Bill without further consideration. The
petition was not opposed to the Bill itself, but, according to
the prayer, to provide for its being carried out. From these
statements, it appeared, that if the Bill were carried in its
Present form, it might prevent the improvement of the
system ; for if they gave the power sought by this
Bill, it would assuredly create a monopoly. This evil
had already been largely felt by the water and gas companies.
The report was to be brought up this evening, and he thought
that if a clause were to be introduced at some future stage of
the Bill, obliging all companies to give this advantage to the Go-
vernment, it would in a great degree hinder the mischief which
the petitioner anticipated, and he should move that the petition
be referred to the Committee.
The Duke of BEAUFORT stated that the report had
already been brought up, and the object of the petition had
already been answered. The petition indeed had been pre-
sented, and had been fully considered by the Committee.
CORN-LAWS.
The Bishop of DURHAM presented a petition from Durham
praying their Lordships to pass the Corn Bill as speedily as
possible. He considered it would be of great benefit to the
agricultural portion of the people of that county.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY concurred in the prayer
of the petition. The Noble Marquis defended himself against
the charges which had been brought against him of
having changed his principles and formed an alliance with the
Anti-Corn-law League. He had always stated, both in public
and private, that no Ministry could lung resist the repeal of the
corn-laws.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM, who was alluded to by the
Noble Marquis, briefly explained, and then gave notice that in
the Committee on the Corn-law Bill he would move that the words
" until the first of February, 1849," should be omitted.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM presented a petition from a place
whose name we could not catch in favour of an immediate
repeal.
LONDON AND RAILWAY YORK BILL.
The Earl of LOVELACE brought up the report upon this
Bill, and moved for the discharge of the Committee. They
had been now nineteen days at work, and they had passed all
the unopposed Bills.
Lord BROUGHAM considered that the proposition was a
very reasonable one, but he considered that it would be better
to defer it till Friday next.
Lord VIVIAN objected to such a course. He did
think that the Committee had strong claims upon the consi-
deration of their Lordships' House, after having now sat for
nineteen days, and particularly when their Lordships recol-
lected that in all the other Committees of their Lordships'
House, not one of them had such a number of
Railway Bills before them as had occupied, or would
occupy half the time. He was aware of this fact, and these-
fore he trusted their Lordships would accede to the propo-
sition.
The Earl of DEVON said he felt quite assured that the
Committee whose duty it was to select members of that House
to serve on Committees, would consider the subject with the
anxiety it deserved.
Lord REDESDALE said it was not the duty of the Com-
mittee who arranged those railways in groups to consider the
question. At the same time he should admit that the request
made by the Committee was a reasonable one, and that it
would be easy to refer the Bills before that Committee to
another one. No doubt it might be urged that
a great deal of the evidence upon some of those Bills had already
been heard by that Committee; but then he did not think
that the consideration of a few days' additional expense which
would be incurred by referring the Bills to another Com-
mittee should be any reason for refusing the request. He
suggested that the House should decide upon it on Thursday
next.
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question of giving leave of absence to that Committee, and
therefore it should be considered as one of very great importance.
inefficient were the present means of conducting the great
and important system of national intercourse.
Lord BROUGHAM agreed with the Noble Lord as to the
necessityin to these
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should be set apart, to which all private Bills ought to be re-
ferred.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE was convinced that some new ma-
chinery should be adopted to facilitate railway business in
Parliament. He entirely agreed with the Noble Lord oppo-
site ( Earl Fitzwilliam) that a change was necessary. Let
them look to the progress of the present Bill. It was intro-

duced last session into the House of Commons, where it was
considered ribt nineteen days, but eighty-four days. Under
such circumstances, it was almost impossible to get Members
of Parliament to sit so long unless they were compelled to do
so. It had then been introduced into this Howe, in the:present
session of Parliament. They were now in the month of June
considering a Bill which had been passed last year by the
House of Commons. Another company came into the field
this year, and because they had a branch which competed for a
short distance with the London and York Railway, the whole
question was opened up, and the sitting of the Committee was
therefore the more prolonged. He thought it but right, that
where a branch competed with a project for a main line, the
inquiry should only extend to that branch.
Lord REDESDALE was of opinion that something should
be done to alter the present system of opposition in Com-
mittees.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE conceived that the mo-
tion could not be entertained by the House. The better plan
would Le either to move that the standing order be suspended,
or that the report be brought up on Thursday next. Rut to
this latter course there was this difficulty, that the Committee
were supposed to sit de die in diem till the report was made.
This was only a partial report, and therefore it was incompe-
tent for the House to entertain it ; and as the better plan,
therefore, he would suggest that the Noble Lord should move
that the standing order be suspended.
A conversation, in which many Noble Lords joined, then en-
sued, which was interrupted by
The LORD CHANCELLOR, who suggested that there
were several Members of the House of Commons, who had
been waiting for a long time, but

Lord CAMPBELL said he was disposed to show all possi-
ble courtesy to those Hon. Members, but he had a very few
words to add to the debate, and he could not help observing,
that it appeared as if the Committee wished to throw off their
duty by a si.le wind.
After some further discussion, leave was given for the
Committee to sit again on Thursday, at four o'clock.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition, complaining of the
difficulty of obtaining sites for the session churches in Scotland,
and praying that some measures might be adopted to remove
the evil. The Noble Lord also presented a petition, numer-
ously signed, praying that the measure then under discussion,
with reference to the corn duties, might speedily pass
into a law.

LORD HARDINGE AND LORD GOUGH'S

ANNUITY BILLS.

On the motion of the Earl of RIPON, the further con-
sideration of these Bills was postponed until to-morrow (this
day) se'nnight.

Earl GREY presented a petition from the parish of
Wokingham, which, he said, referred to a matter of scme im-
portance. The petition stated, that the parish extended over
a space of 8,500 acres, anti contained a population of 3,500
inhabitants. The parish was under the jurisdiction of the Doan
of Salisbury. The tithes had been commuted to 1,6981.
There were thirty acres of glebe land, which produced 601. per
annum. With these advantages, the Rev. Thomas Morris re-
ceived the small stipend of 1501 per annum, including what
he received from Queen Anne's bounty, and only 401. of the
amount arose from tithes. Some years since he appointed an
assistant-curate at a salary of 801., leaving himself the yearly
amount of 701. Since that time, the assistant-curate being
unable to continue at the salary of 801., received an increase,
which diminished the sum to 40/. The petition
went en to state that in consequence of the smallness of that
income the Rev. S. Morris had been compelled to accept the
appointment of maser of some alms-houses, for which he re-
ceived a salary of 100/. per annum. The duties of that ap-
pointment made great calls on his time, and he had, therefore,
less leisure to attend to his parochial duties. The petition
also complained that in 1843 the church was declared to be in
s•) bad a state as to need either extensive repairs or rebuilding.
Application was made to the Dean of Salisbury, with regard
to the means of repairing or rebuilding the church. He
(Earl Grey) would not trouble them with the painful cor-
respondence that had taken place on the subject. He would
only state, as the petition went on to say, that the parishioners
were obliged to repair the church ; and yet, from the impossi-
bility of coming to an arrangement with the rector, or lessee
of the tithes, they were obliged to spend 700/. on an inefficient
repair of the church, while they were prepared to expend a much
larger sum on rebuilding it. The petitioners stated that the
condition of the church arose from the want of sufficient
ecclesiastical visitation. while at the same time it admitted of
some neglect on the part of the parish officer. The yearly
revenue available to the parish was 1,700/., and yet, with that
large sum at its disposal there was an insufficient spiritual
accommodation for the parish, which in one part contained a
rapidly rising population, who gained their subsistence by
precarious means, and necessarily felt the want of spiritual
attendance. which encouraged vice and immorality to a great
extent. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners had more power
than any ether body to do something on this subject, and it was
absolutely necessary that something should be done. They
might find the means of doing so without any alteration of the
law, but if they would not an Act of Parliament would be
necessary. These were the reasons why he wished to recom-
mend the petition to the notice of their Lordships.
The Bishop of SALISBURY wished to thank his Nobla
Friend for the courtesy he had shown for suffering the presenta-
tion of the petition, and he would also express his views
of the firmness he had shown in thus abstaining from a cor-
respondence which would necessarily lead to a long correspond-
ence. He admitted the state of the parish of Wokingham,
but it was only one of a number of parishes which were in a
similar condition. The means of specially providing for those
grievances had been furnished under the late Act 3 and 4 Vict.,
chap. 113, which stated that tithes being separate estates en-
joyed by the corporation of souls, the power of disposing of them
should be vested in the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, always
subject to any existing lease. He thought, therefore, this
matter should be referred solely to them, as it was in their pro-
vince.
Ordered to lie on the table.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and their
Lordships adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock till Thurs-
day next.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 8.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
MORAYSHIRE RAILWAY BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passsed.
STAINES AND RICHMOND RAILWAY BILL.

Colonel WOOD moved the order of the day for the ad.
journed debate on motion for the re-commitment of this Bill,
and took the opportunity of remarking upon the difficulty which
had been thrown in the way of the Company by the length-
ened delay of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, in giving
their negative to the measure. He also complained that the
Committee who had been appointed to inquire into the
merits of the Bill had not received sufficient evidence.
Mr. SOTHERON said it was not his intention to vote in
any way on the matter before the House. In consequence of
the vacillating conduct of the Board of Woods and
Forests, the Committee of which he was a mem-
ber, had considered themselves justified in making
a special report on the Bill, which, as they thought, would
have the effect of delaying further proceedings, at least for the
present session. Whatever decision the House might come to,
he was of opinion that in no case should any public body, to
which a Bill might be referred for its assent, be allowed to
offer any opinion, or throw any obstacle in the way of the pro-
gress of the Bill at any time after the second reading of the

Mr. H. BERKELEY observed that when the debate was
adjourned, it was with the express understanding that the
opinion of the Woads and Forests off the Bill was to be given.
The Hon. Member was proceeding with his observations,
when he was interrupted by
Mr. HUME, who spoke to order, and said that as a mem-
ber of the Woods and Forests was present, the required in-
formation could be obtained.

Sir G. CLERK said that proposals had been made by the
company to make drains for the town of Richmond, and other-
wise to improve it. These proposals had met with the appro-
bation of the Board of Woods and Forests, and they had in
consequence withdrawn their opposition to the line on the part
of the Crown property.
Mr. VILLIERS observed that the delay had been occa-
sioned by the Commissioners, and that it was owing entirely
to the Woods and Forests. The present motion was not
intended to bs an appeal from the Committee, and he should
support the motion.
A desultory conversation then took place, in which Mr. F.
Scott, Lord G. Somerset, Mr. Bailey, Mr. Wakley, and Col.
Peel joined, and the gallery was ordered to be cleared.

Oti our readmission the numbers were—
For the re-commitment of the Bill ... 61
Against it.....
Majority against the re-commitment —7
This Bill was consequently lost.
THIRD READINGS.
The following Bills were read a third time and passed :
Caledonian and Dumbartonshire Junction Railway ; Cambridge
and Oxford Railway ; Dunblane, Donne, and Callander Rail-
way ; East and West Yorkshire Junction Railway; Glasgow,
Strathaven, and Lesmahagow Direct Railway; Kil-
marnock and Troon Railway ; Liverpool Improvement ;
London and South Western Railway Acts Amendment;
Slamannan Railway (Bathgate and i Jawcraig Branches);
Thames Haven Dock and Railway (No. 2.) ; Wilsontown,
Morningside, and Coltness Railway (Bathgate Branch) : Wil-
sontown, Morningside, and Coltness Railway (Caledonian
Junction) ; Wilsontown, Morningside,
_and Coltness Railway
(Improvement and Branches).
CULLEN'S ESTATE BILL.
This Bill was read a second time and passed.
REPORTS.

The following reports were brought up, the amendments
and alterations agreed to, and the Bills ordered to be en-
grossed :—Clitheroe Junction Railway : Earl of Blesinton's
Estate Bill; London and Birmingham Railway (Newport Pak.
nell Branch); North Gravesend Railway ; Oxford, Worcester,
and Wolverhampton Railway ; Sheffield General Cemetery ;
Shropshire Union Railways and Canal (Newton to Crewe,
with Branches) ; South-Eastern Railway (Maidstone to
Strood, near Rochester); South-Eastern Railway (Canterbury
to Dover) ; South Wales Railway; South Yorkshire Coal
Railway and Canal.
WEXFOHD, WAKEFIELD, AND VALENTIA
RAILWAY.

On the motion of Mr. SPOONER this Bill was vtithdrawn.
ST. MARTIN'S BURIAL GROUND, BIRMINGHAM.
Mr. SPOONER moved that it be an instruction to the
Committees on the London and Birmingham Railway (Birm-
ingham Extension) Bill, the Birmingham, Wolverhampton,
and Stour Valley Railway ( Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and
Dudley lines) Bill, and the Shrewsbury and Birmingham
Railway Bill, that they do entertain the petition of relatives of
persons deceased interred in St. Martin's Burial-ground,
Birmingham, notwithstanding such petition was not presented
three clear days before the day appointed for the first meeting
of th.o Committees.

Mr. ORMSBY GORE said that a petition to the contrary
effect of that stated by the Honourable Member for Birming-
ham had been presented by the trustees, and if the House
sanctioned the motion he must move that this petition be also
referred to the Committee.

Mr. W. R. COLLETT seconded the motion of the Hon.
Member for Shropshire.
After a few words, which did not reach the gallery, from
Lord G. SOMERSET, _ _

Mr. SCOTT said that he could hardly understand the
reason for the application of the Hon. Member for Birming-
ham ; at any rate, if it were granted, he should call upon the
House to do him equal justice, and allow his petition to be
heard before the Committee.
Mr. SPOONER could not consent to withdraw his motion.
The present was a case of a novel and an important character,
and should be decided at once. He hoped and trusted that it
would be allowed to undergo the investigation of a Committee.
sAhsouheld withdraw h
wasnotincils ot
inmedtion.
o oppose the wishes of the Houses, he

Motion withdrawn accordingly.
KILMARNOCK AND TROON RAILWAY.
This Bill, on the motion of Dr. BOWRING, was read a
third time and passed.
Messengers from the Lords brought in several Bills.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion of Sir Sir J. GRAHAM, it was agreed that
the House at its rising, should adjourn till Wednesday.

move, on the motion
NOTlCticEeSthOjheAslhOoToldON.
Col. WOOD gave no .
Committee the Poor being put for the House going into. on Re-
moval Bill, that the Bill be divided into two, one Bill to be
limited to the exemption of poor persons from the liability of
being removed from parishes in which they have long resided.
Dr. BOWRING moved for a return of the amounts not paid
into the Exchequer, but deducted for costs of collection, and
all other purposes, from the gross amounts received by all the
departments of revenue, separately stated. Also, a return of

the amounts received by the various departments of expen-
diture, from all sources except Parlamentary grants or issues
from the Exchequer in the year ending the sth day of
January, 1846.—Agreed to.
Mr. CHRISTIE moved for a return of the age, date of
appointment, and salary of Patrick Shaw, Esq., Advocate, Pre-
senter of signatures in Exchequer in Scotland, and of the
amount of allowance to an assistant paid by him out of his
salary. Statement of the duties of presenter of signatures, show-
ing how they differ from those of the agent for revising drafts
of charters, proposed to be appointed by a Bill now before
the House, " to alter and amend the Practice in Scotland
with regard to Crown Charters and Receipts fi om Chancery,"
the 4th section of which Bill provides that the revising agent
shall be a wrier of the signet ; and the 26th section, that the
office and duties of presenter of signatures shall cease from the
passing of the Bill, but that Mr. Shaw shall continue to draw
his salary during his life-time."—Agreed to.'
Mr. 'F. S. DUNCOMBE slid, that he took the liberty at
the close of the debate on Friday evening last, of moving that
the Poor Removal Bill should be taken into the consideration
of the House that evening, with the view of its taking prece-.
dente of any other notice of motion. The public had
a right to this course, and they had also a right to expect
that the House would not goon with the Irish Coercion Bill until
the Poor Removal Bill had been disposed of and discussed
by that House. In consequence of the notice given by
the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, on
the occasion of the Irish Coercion Bill having been carried
on the first reading by a majority of that House, such a
course was.cxpected, because on that occasion the Right Hon.
Baronet was asked when he intended to go on with the Poor
Removal Bill, and the course of action then laid down by the
Right Honourable Baronet was, that after the first
reading of the Irish Coersion Bill, they should proceed
with the Corn and Customs, some few votes of supply,
and that he should also go on to take the sense of the House on
the sugar duties before proceeding with the second reading of
the Coercion Bill. They had disposed of the corn and customs
—they had had votes of supply, but they had not had the
discussion on the Poor Removal Bill, and it was now pro-
posed to take the second reading of the Irish Coercion
Bill before they made any progress in the Poor Removal Bill.
The House was called on in the first instance to take the first
reading of the Irish Coercion Bill, and not from any admira-
tion of its provisions, but as a compliment to the House of
Lords, they were called on to agree to that first reading at
once. That arrangement was made, and in justice to many
gentlemen on that side of the House, he would say
that under that impression many had voted fur the
first reading who intended to oppose it on the second.
But now, he contended that the House was taken by surprise
by the Government supporting and adopting the motion of his
Hon. Friend the Member for Mahon (Mr. E. Denison).
They were called upon the other night to enter Committee
pro firma, in order that the Government and his Hon. Friend
might introduce amendments into his Bill, which was to be
altogether remodelled ; but he wanted to know, because he held
that the inst, uction agreed to on Friday night did not convey
the sense of the House, as the House was taken by surprise ; and
he now objected to take the Irish Coercion Bill, because it
was incumbent upon them to take the Poor Removal Bill
this evening, in order to discharge the instruction passed the
other night. Even the Noble Lord ( Lord John Russell)
had not pledged himself to support it, but in addition
to the objections he (Mr. Duncsmbe) had stated against it,
he maintained that the instructions would altogether render
the Bill a new one as it would have to be remodelled. He had
a right to inquire whether the House was taken
by surprise or not with respect to the instructions
and with that view he wished agaio to have the sense of the
House upon it, and if the Committee of the House was averse
to it, that it might be discharged, and that the Government
might not be put to the trouble of proceeding with it. There
never was a Bill which required more remodelling than the
Poor Removal Bill, and it was a disgrace to the Poor-
law Commissioners to have laid such a Bill on the table of the
House, because it would add to the difficulties in connexion with
the question of settlement. He should, therefore, conclude by
moving that the order of the day for the second reading of the
Poor Removal Bill be read in preference to the second
reading of the Irish Coercion Bill.
Mr. HUNIE seconded the motion.

The SPEAKER having put the question,
Sir J. GRAHAM said he, for one, did not object to the
amendment of the Hon. Gentleman, but his approval of it
must be qualified by the understanding that he should
only support it for the purpose of postponing the
Poor Removal Bill. He would tell the House what
had occrred since Friday evening last. In obedience to
what he considered the opinion of the majority of the House ;
on ,aturday morning he gave directions to prepare clauses in
accordance with those sentiments those clauses had
been prepared, but he had not had time to consider them.
If it were the pleasure of the House, he should be prepared on
Wednesday or Friday next to give notice that he should
introduce the clauses to which allusion had been
already made. But the Honourable Gentleman
was not satisfied with the decisio❑ of Friday night,
last, and that the course proposed to be taken by his Right
Hon. Friend at the head of the Government, with reference to
the second reading of the measure, the discussion on
which had been fixed for that evening. What
had taken place with regard to the Poor Re-
moval Bill was in exact conformity with the
arrangements that had been previously made. If the Hon.
Member for Finsbury should think that this matter would
receive a fairer consideration in a fuller House, he was certainly
at liberty to give notice of his intention to move that the subject
be reconsidered.

Mr. DUNCONIBE—I gave notice on Friday.
Sir J. GRAHAM had every reason to believe that the deci-
sion of the House that evening would be in conformity to the
decision to which they had come on Friday night. It was cer-
tainly most desirable that they should arrive at some distinct
understanding on this point.
Mr. G. BANKES said he entirely concurred with the view
which had been taken by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, with
regard to the division of the other night—that it was a divi-
sion which took the House entirely by surprise.—(Hear.)
The surprise on that side of the House was complete, when
they learned that the Government voted in support of the mea-
sure, which they had every reason to suppose they would vote
in opposition to—( Hear, hear)—because it was the very same
measure which had been completely given up by the Secretary
of the Home-office, and because he stated that he found it uni-
versally distasteful to the agricultural district—( Hear, hear)—
and therefore it was entirely by surprise that that motion
was so disposed of; for he might state that of those Hon.
Members who sat on the same side of the House with
hint, on that occasion left the matter wholly and
solely in the hands of the Goverement, because they consi-
dered themselves acting with safety in doing so ; though it was
true they had not been universally in the habit of trusting
them, and on the only occasion on which they unfortunately
reposed their confidence in them, a measure was passed
which was adverse to the wishes of their constituents.
He was therefore prepared to say that before they adopted the
instruction in question, that ins' ruction ought to be carried by
a majority of that House, and before that would be done they
mast have another division—( Hear, hear)—and he knew no
occasion on which they were more likely to have a fuller at-
tendance, or a more dispassionate discussion, than they would
have that evening. He hoped, therefore, that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Finsbury would persevere in his motion, and now take a
division ; and whatever that division might be, they would ac-
knowledge that it was a decision of a majority of that House.—
( Hear, hear.) He must remind his lion. Friends who sat upcn
the Treasury bench. that it was understood that this measure
should be sent pari passu to the other House of Parliament,
with the other important Bill that was now before it. And
with regard to the discussion interposing any further delay in
the question of the Coerc on Bill, he believed that the opinion
was universal throughout the country, that the Government
had no idea whatever of carrying that Bill—( Hear, hear)—that
they had resigned the hope, if they had not given up the wish
of carrying it, and therefore he had no scruple whatever
in interposing any further delay to the discussion,
of the Coercion Bill. With regard to the discussion the other
night, he thought that it was impracticable to carry it out un-
less the present poor-law unions were remodelled. Under these
circumstances, he hoped that they would now have an oppor-
tunity of taking a vote without surprise, in a full House of
Parliament, on this important question.
Sir R. PEEL said that the great majority of those who
were then present must have come there that day with the full
expectation that the subject for discussion was the second read-
ing of the 13111 for the better Protection of Life and Property
in Ireland—( Hear, hear)—and when the opportunities for dis-
cussion were so precious it was of importance that no time
should be lost in consequence of any misunderstanding. He
had been most desirous, during the course of the present ses-
sion, to fulfil any assurance he might have given. He always
felt certain that the second reading of that Bill was fixed under
the impression that on the motion that the Speaker do leave
the chair, there should be an opportunity, he would not say
for the discussion of any principle in the Bill, but for Members
to state generally what were their opinions with respect to it.
He would not admit that he ever said that this measure should
proceed, pari passu, with the other Bill that was now before
the other House of Parliament. He had always
stated that he should be prepared to give a full op-
portunity for discussion on the question. He had
also stated that he considered it to be his duty to
proceed with the Bill for the better protection of life and
property in Ireland. He thought it would be perfectly open to
any Hon. Gent. to object to the decision of the other night,
and to give notice of his intention to move that the subject
should be discussed again ; but surely that subject might be
discussed with greater advantage if due notice of it were given
—( Hear, hear)—than bringing forward a discussion upon it
now, when the majority of the House had come there that
evening under the impression that the subject for discussion
was the second reading of the Bill for the better Protection of
Life and Property in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He did hope,
then, that the Hon. Gent. would not drag the House into a
futile discussion upon this most important discussion; but
allow them to proceed with that which had been set down for
the business of the evening.
Mr. EV ELYN DENISON said he had kept perfect good faith
with the House with regard to this most important question ;
and on Saturday, pursuant to appointment, he had an inter-
view with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State
for the Home Department, and settled the clauses of the Bill.
He might go so far as to say that the clauses had been brought
up, and the amended Bill printed. Would it not be better,
then, to postpone the discussion, in order that Hon. Members
might have an opportunity of considering it.
Mr. \VAKLEY could not understand hew the House could
have been taken by surprise by the course proposed by
the Right Hon. Baronet, for notice was given previous to the
recess that the discussion on the second reading of the Bill
should be proceeded with on Friday. The question now pro-
posed to be discussed was one of a most important character,
for it affected the condition of thousands of the poorer classes
of the country, and he hoped it would not be discussed !!r
treated in the light of a party discussion.—( Hear, bear.)_ouse_l:
was a subject which deserved the greatest attention of the House,
and for good or evil must effect the condition of tsh?erPeortfhoer
many years to come. For himself he deeplyofea id
his Hon.
question, but he confessed, after the motion
Col-
league, it required still more of his
be given in unions, as
Colleague proposed that relief should
consideration. His Hon.
the continuance of the
well as in parishes, which would
involvehe must confess, after what had
Poor-law Commissioners ;
transpired in a and Committee with which he himself was con-
not in a condition fur-
nccted, that that 11
that branch of the subject. —(Hear,
ther to legislate up
He trusted, therefore, ntherefore, that the House would on no
hear.)
consideration legislate hastily on this question, but would take
into its consideration everything bearing on the question.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that he could not ouite agree
with the lion. Gentleman who had just sat down, and with the
Gentleman who brought the question before the House. He
considered it fair to the Right Hon. Gentleman who intro-
duced the motion to the Government, that the House of Gam-
mons
should enable the Right Hon. Gentleman to placethel3ill before the House in a definite shape. It would have been
better had the Bill been called the Union Settlement Bill, as
it would have 'brought the Bill more fully before the House.
He could not see the advantage of going intoany discussion
on the Bill on the present occasion, for it seemed to him that
it would be far better that they should allow the Right Hon.
Gentleman to place the Bill (having fully considered the
clauses) in that shape in which he thought the House could
best consider it. The Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, although
he supported the Bill, and seemed to support the motion of his
Hon. Friend, had said what he (Lord John Russell) thought
was, in itself, a reason for taking such a course. He said that
the unions were very large, too large for the purposes required,
and until they saw the amendments to the Bill, how did
they know that the Right Hon. Baronet did not intend to
propose some modification of the size of the unions ? They did
not know what were the details he proposed; and as the lion.

Gentleman asked only until Wednesday to settle these details,
he thought that such an interval should not be denied him.
Mr. BRIGHT said, that in the course of his observations,
the Hon. Member for Finsbury had said, that the clerk of a
union at, or near Stafford, had refused to allow a rate payer of
the district to inspect the returns, or to give scme information
which he sought for. He (Mr. Bright) had received a letter
which stated that the assertion was not correct, as far as the union
clerk was concerned. He would read a portion of that letter
to the House. It stated that the clerk had all times, in the
performance of the duties of his office, given every opportunity
for inquiry ; but that, with regard to the refusal stated by the
lion. Member for Finsbury, no such application was ever made
to him, nor did he know until lately that it was asserted that
any information had been denied. The letter also stated that
the returns of the 9th of February, 1846, were carefully
made, and that they comprehended every particular which it
was necessary to mention. He ( Mr. Bright) was sure that
there was no union clerk in the country more disposed to do
his duty, and he had no doubt that the Hon. Member for Fins-
bury had laboured under some mistake, or had received erro-
neous information from other parties.
Lord HARRY VANE trusted that the House would accede
to the suggestion of the Noble Lord the Member for London.
His opinions were not quite similar to those entertained by the
Noble Lord, but he was anxious that the question should be
discussed at some future time, when the House was more In
possession of the circumstances. He thought the House
would
adopt a most inconvenient course if they entered then upnn a
recommendation of what they had passed so recently as Friday
last. Such a course would create as much surprise in the
country as that expressed by the Hon. Gentleman at
their adoption of the instructions of the Hon. Member for
Nlal ton.

Mr. P. BORTHWICK considered that the subject ought
to he referred to a Select Committee, and expressed his in-
tention of proposing the adoption of that course in the event of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury moving the rejection of the in-
structions.

Mr. DUNCOMBE considered it would be better for the
House to go into Committee pro forms, in order that they
might have an opportunity of moving the rejection of the in-
structions.

Sir ROBERT PEEL thought the House had better see
the Bill before they came to any decision respecting
(Hear.) It was an important Bill, and every one would ac.
quiesce in the necessity of giving the utmost attention to it.
It would be best to print the Bill, and afterwards to discuss
the subject of union settlements.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Right Hon. Baronet the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department informed him, in an
early stage of the Bill, that it was his intention to
the poor of Ireland. He trusted that nothing would be intro-
duced into it to prevent this, and therefore he wished to know
he intended to carry out that principle in the Bill as
amended? apply it to

Sir JAMES GRAHAM intended that all Ireland should be
included in the provisions of the Bill.
Mr. BORTHWICK should object to the House going into
Committee pro fimm,i, in order to embody in the Bill the in-
structions of the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said he should take the sense of the
House on his motion, as he considered that the House ought
not to be put to the trouble of going into Committee until the
nature of the Bill had been determined in a full House.
Sir J ANI ES GRAHAM said the instructions were agreed
to, after great discussion, on Friday evening. The clauses
were prepared, and he believed the Hon. Member for Malton
had seen them. As he stated he had not yet had an opportunity
of reading them, but in the course of two hours he had no
doubt he should be enabled to look over them, so that the House
might go into Committee pro lbrimi, and as the House would
net sit to-morrow, they might he able to discuss it on Wednes-
day ; but, unfortunately, the bus'ness before the House would
not admit of that. However, on Thursday he hoped they might
enter into a discussion of its merits.
Colonel WOOD had given notice that to-day he should
hope to confine the attention of the House to one simple clause,
viz., that a person who had been resident in a parish should
not be liable to removal out of it.
Mr. DUNCOMBE understood the Hon. Member to mean
that the two projects should be included in one Bill, in order
that they might have the pleasure of separating them after-
wards. —( Cheers. )
The amendment was withdrawn.
ENLISTMENT OF SOLDIERS.
Captain LAYARD asked the Right Hon. the Secretary at
War, whether there was any truth in the statement that had al:"
peared in the Times newspaper, with respect to the limitation
of the period of enlistment, as connected with clause 8?
Mr. S. HERBERT said the Gallant Officer was correct 'll
hi: surmises as to clause 8, and that an alteration had taken
place with respect to the period of enlistment of soldiers.
THE GAUGE QUESTION.
Mr. C. WOOD wished to ask the chief Minister of the
Crown, what opinion the Government had formed with respect
to the gauges?
Sir R. PEEL thought it was necessary that the opinion
should
the Government on that important subject (the gauge) o.
be made known as speedily as possible, because the Pr°gre" the
decision railway Bills would no doubt be impeded until
decision of the Government was made public. He believed
that the proceeds of the Commission appointed to inquire. intontou...
the subject of the broad and narrow gauges, and their ore
had been reported in the shape of a minute. which had been
laid on the table. The best and most satisfactory course which
he could pursue would be to move that those minutes be
printed, so that by to-morrow morning every Member in that
House might have a copy in his hand.
CASE OF SIR CHARLES TAYLOR.
Mr. COLLETT said the Bth of June had now arrived, and
the time had elapsed when he was to have received an
answer
with
from the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State,
him
respect to copies of affidavits which had been submitted to to
Right
in the case of Sir Charles Taylor. He called upon the
Hon. Gentleman to submit to the House the resulth iomf histo
investigation of those affidavits, and he also wished
state whether Sir Charles Taylor was still in the commission of
the peace.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM replied that since the conduct of
Sir Charles Taylor had been brought under the attention of
the House, he had made the most minute inquiry with respect
to the truths of the charges brought against him. The result
of his investigation of the first charge was that the Hen.
Member had relied upon the statement of a convicted felon,
and that his statement was incorrect. He did not believe the
truth of the statement. Since then the Hon. Member had
proposed a new case—had brought new charges against Sir
Charles Taylor, on the affidavits of different persons, and had
furnished him with those affidavits. He had carefully con-
sidered those affidavits, and was of opinion that it was un-
necessary to take any further proceedings with respect to the
matter. With respect to the last question of the Hon. Gen-
tleman, he did not hesitate to tell him that Sir Charles Taylor
did hold her Majesty's commission.
Mr. P. SCROPE was aware that several charges had been
made against Sir Charles Taylor, who had been put to con-
siderable inconvenience and anxiety with respect to the pub-
lication of them in the papers. Sir Charles Taylor had
sought his advice upon the subject, and had asked him whether
he could take proceedings in a court of law, or in that House,
against the Hon. Member for Athlone. His advice was,that
he should not take any proceedings in the matter, as the truth
would become apparent, and his character would be cleared.
If such charges were brought against one magistrate, they
might be brought against all.
Mr. COLLETT said that he still most conscientiously be-
lieved that the allegations were true.—(Order, order.) .
Mr. NEWDEGATE felt satisfied that the charges which
were made against Sir Charles Taylor were utterly groundless,
and he did hope that the House would take some means of pro-
tecting an individual who was unable to defend himself front
the attacks of any Hon. Member in that House.
Mr. WAKLEY observed, that there was only one coufo
open to the House to adopt, and that was for the appointnient
of a Committee. After the statement of the Hon. Member,
that he fully believed that the allegations contained in the de-
positions were true, and after the statement of the Right
Hon. Baronet, that he did not intend to institute any further
inquiry, he was satisfied that no case more admitted or re-
quired a complete inquiry than the present.
Mr. BANKES objected to any further inquiry, as he consi-
dered the appointment of a Committee would be an imputation
on the veracity of the House, and be holding them up to pub-
lic scandal.

Mr. HUME thought it was much to the honour of any
Member, when he heard of any act of injustice having been
done by a magistrate, to interfere and protect the victim of
magisterial ignorance or tyranny.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he was unacquainted
with Sir Charles Tay o
lor, but if blame attached to any one,
thought it attached t him. He did consider that there should
be some course adopted which would prevent Members coning
forward and making such accusations as those made aga'n!!
Sir Chas. Taylor, when they were based upon wholly grounne
lees fabrications; and that would be the only proper method
meeting out justice upon such occasions. And now, with re-
spect to the legality of these affidavits—they were perfectly O,
n
but they were nullities, and no civil action would lie upon
them, nor could a civil action be brought to recover damages
against any person who had made them falsely. He did trust
that the Hon. Gentleman would come forward himself when 1,7
had inquired a little more into the case, and he would
apologise.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK—The Hon. Member for
Montrose expressed his surprise that his Hon. Friend below
(Mr. Bankes) should have shown so much warmth uP2in4
this occasion, but he should have felt much surprise if 'l4
Hon. Friend had not shown warmth, for it would be as much
as to say that he was wanting in all the feelings which eh2kraose
terise an English gentleman—that he was wanting in been
feelings of generosity which betray a noble spirit—had he beo
enabled to have heard those charges brought against an II 11•
~
Gentleman, 80 years of age, who had been a magistrate more
than half a century. What, were they to grant a Committee
of trusted
not. of Inquiry into that Hon. Gentleman's conduct I
not. If they were to grant a Committee, it should be on
inquire whether an Hon. Member had been the instrumen".
a foul, a false, a scandalous charge against an Hon. Gentlein,a%
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said, it appeared to him
they were making much to do about nothing. The Hon
Member for Athlone, they were all aware, upon these subjects
gawetaarelotthaotf if they
was a monomaniac. The House were
wqouuitide
sent down into the county towns they
ls Taylor had made himself
to swear anything, and Sir Charles Taylor
to the laws.f
an apology or
obnoxious to the people by
Indeed, he consider ed the Hon.
__ )
HATetaahyrilo,onrhe,e.ar, .
said, in the extreme desire which the House
Mr. BRIGHT
having brought. forwardt his strict
That Hon•
manifested to doy quite for-
got to do justice.
h question very minute • •
c
had given t e
justice o thet
1 himrabrCegirel Charles
inquiry, and he
Gentleman
had found a confirmation of his former statements. He (Mr.
Bright) had himself se en the woman who had purchased the
game,
and he hail seen her husband also ; and there was no-
thing in her appearance, or in her mariner, or in her conduct,
which would alter his belief in her statements. But he would
draw their attention to a fact which had lately appeared in
Worcester journal, that a gamekeeper had laid a
snare in which
he placed dead game in a field, through which there was a path
-
to a church, in order that some might
had person be found to
take it ; and could they doubt that
person
so lie would be punished for it? And if the Hon. Gentleman
was a monomaniac, he wished more persons would adopt
views with reference to the game-laws.---(A laugh from Lor
George Bentinck )
Mr. COLLETT the
regretted to intrude himself upon „
House, but he could not sit quietly by when such severe alit,
adversions had been made en a Member of that House. ,he
had inquired into the character of Sir Charles Taylor, and )
found there was not, a more honourable man.—( Hear, hear•
i,.,
He did consider that the Hon. Member ought either to sinen
stantiate his charges or to apologise.--The subject was i
allowed to drop.

COERCION BILL (IRELAND).
Mr.POULETT SCROPE said, he would postpone the
ect re sog
-
lutions which he had upon the paper—resolutions respin
remedial measures which should certainly accompany such a
measure as that at present proposed for Ireland.
Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE said, he had to move that
this Bill (the Irish Coercion Bill) be read this day six moot"'
He had hoped that her Majesty's Government would ha
vl
abandoned this measure, and he was sorry that they He
shown a perseverance with it worthy of a better cause.
contended that the Government had not made use of all the
powers which were vested in them by the law of the land, to IT,
down the disturbed state of Ireland. They had sent a Specie!
Commission to W stmeath, but they had taken care to send
down before hand to know what evidence they could collect to
support convictions. Now, he asked, had they pursued the.
same course with regard to Limerick and Clare ? He believed
that they had not; if they had, he withdrew the chargect
('Hear, hear.) The people of Ireland resisted the law, as it ?.,,a„
not press fairly upon them; they had a rooted dislike 1"

,4,

English law, and how were they to remove that feeling?
Why, not by coercive acts, but by kind and paternal govern-
ment. Since the union, a period when Ireland was
not governed by a Coercion Bill, was the exceptiote
He begged the House not to be led away by their feelings in
the discussion of this question. He was very much struck
with what fell from the Honourable Member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire on a former occasion. In allinlirer to the
murder of the late Lord Norbury, he depicted the shack which
his feelings sustained by that occurrence. They all knew,
however, how that crime was perpetrated; but, stringent as
the Bill was, it would be ineffective to prevent the occurrence
of such horrible assassinations. They had for a course of cen-
turies endeavoured to put the whole population of Ireland out
of the pale of the law, and they could not expect, after such
treatment, they could have a peaceable and contented body of
people. The people of Scotland gave a proof of the inefficacy
of keeping the inhabitants of a country in subjection when no
care was taken to show them that they were the objects of the
law's protection. Archbishop Sharpe, of Glasgow, fell a vic-
tim to the mob in that city, when the people were influenced
h_y similar exasperating circumstances as the people of Ireland.
To use the words of Mr. Burke, the Government " were fret-
ting the people of Ireland with a feverish existence." And
they might depend upon it, that as long as they did not legis-
late for the interests of the people, and the protection of their
rights, so long would they and their measures be regarded
With feelings of hostility. He would not enter at greater
length into the question, as he had already occupied their at-
tention so recently on the specific merits of the Bill. It was
said, the other night, in reference to the diminution of crime
in Ireland, that that was owing to the debates which took
Place on the Bill in this House, and also to the terror caused
by its having passed the House of Lords. He could assure the
Muse, however, that the people of Ireland knew little of what
took place in that House, and cared less. He could not close
the few remarks he thought it his duty to make, without call-
ing their attention to the time during whieh this Bill was
before the House. On the 22d of January last the Bill was
first alluded to in the speech from the throne, and her Ma-
jesty's Government nearly a month afterwards brought for-
this measure. After numerous delays and procrastina-
tions February was allowed to pass, and it was the end of
March before the Bill received the sanction of the House of
Lords. Irrespective of the merits of the Bill, however, he
would ask if crime had been as prevalent in Durham, York-
shire, and ether counties of England, as it had been repre-
sented to have been in Ireland, would they for an instant
have tolerated the Gcvernment to defer the consideration of
a measure for its repression for the space of five months?—
(Hear, hear.) He would ask the Noble Lord (Lord G. Ben-
tinck) would he have done so ? After reeking an extract
from the former speech of the Noble Lord to show that he
Would not, the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to say that if
it were true that assassination was so prevalent in Ireland,
they ought to have taken more decisive and immediate steps
with regard to the present Bill. He did not wish to trouble
the House longer. He was quite certain that the Bill was
altogether unnecessary, and he trusted that the Noble Lord
(George Bentinck) could follow out his own declaration, and
°PPose it. He very much regretted that the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Ireland should have made this the first public act
of his in regard to that country. He would conclude by moving
as an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time that
day six months.
i%i
Confess,rl3EßNAL rose to second the motion. He was free to
ilipported i thatt when
a similar Bill was proposed foreserl,-, he
but he was not confirmed, by any salutary expe-
rience be had of its effects, of the propriety of giving his sup-
port to the present measure. He asked them, was that the
Only remedy they had for the grievances of that country
no.) The Hon and Gallant Member said " No."
shell,eivtishen, what other, remedies did they propose to meet
under which that country laboured? He knew of
eeetaia
from the
of Ireland which at that moment were suffering
the greatest distress, and indeed he must say, that all
through Ireland very general distress existed.
Mr. DILLON BROWN here moved that the House be
Counted.
„nere Strangers were then orered to withdraw. On our return,
s being 40 Members pdresent,
Mr. BERNAL resumed. He was sorry to find that during
e discussion of a question of so much importance to Ireland,
barely 40 Members were present.—( Hear, hear.) He could
not see that such a Bill as the present could have the effect of
Preventing crime in Ireland. If parties in that country were
frlned to commit murder, this measure would not prevent
"71, and, therefore, the object for which it was introduced
R, entirely defeated Her Majesty's Ministers said that in
att:larhuary last midnight murderers were stalking forth in a for-
tr.tseolfe manner, and assassinations were taking place in many
Ireland, and to put a stop to such crimes they thought
to introduce the present measure. He could not see why it
_ras, that if the measure was for any good at all, it should have
wit)!
esdelaed to theFebrua month of June. To ut a pto crime
ah exiysted in ry, no legislative mepasuresto was brought
rd whichtill that evening, and he thought that the long delay
indeed'
had
taken place was a virtual abandonment of the Bill
,o;,
,he had thought that they were to hear no more of it,
of" he was sure that at this period, when Ireland was in a state
aja believed
no such measure should be brought forward.
of lieved that if they were to take the feeling of the people
siesthis country on such a measue, it would be found against it.
;People of England were not in favour of sending the Irish
trl!ailtry to Van Diemen's Land for crimes committed
rough the misery they endured ; for it was well known to the
1.1• )ie of this country that starvation was at the bottom, in
v`..t,, the root of all the crime committed in Ireland, and they
wile,nd be for preparing other measures for remedying the evils
,1..°11 afflicted that country.—( Hear, hear.)
"Jr. DILLON BROWNE again moved that the House be
Zented, when stranges we ordered to withraw ; bu
atinng been found that thereer were forty Memberds present, t it
nit- BERNAL again resumed. The House could not be
aeration the crime in Ireland when it was to be taken into
tcin_t,i that the juries in that country were not impar-
ted:Ll chosen without respect to creed.—( Hear.) He was told
07 the people of Ireland placed no faith in the impartiality
hope of juries, and those that came before them felt but little
partaniatinvPartial justice chosen as they were for their political
People 0113,.."--( Hear, hear). What had they done for the
question ? `rielland ? Had they brought forward any great
Iliad they proposed any great legislative measure
to relieve the distress which existed ? The Government told
them that the
but the Hop' were full of good intentions towards Ireland
Weyer broughtae would bear in mind that those intentions were
to bear in her favour.—( Hear, hear.) Year
after
year
nothia. they were hearing of the distress in Ireland, and still
th_ e Was done for that country. It was well known that
ht_edl'easantry of Ireland had no settlement, no claim on the
hiaucea.nod from this fact had emanated many of the evils corn-
f. It was well known the agrarian crimes committed
arose from the unsettled state of the landed tenure of Ireland,
and it was to this state of things that the Government should
turn its attention.--( Hear, hear.) It was evident that this
bill was most untimely brought forward, for it had been re-
marked by several Peers who had voted for the mea-
sure that if they were aware it would have been
delayed for this period they would not have voted for it.
LThere must have been some reason for this change.—( Hear,
"ear.) It was quite a romance to think that a Bill which was
htleen,ught forward to put a stop to midnight murders should be
(I,lnYed to a period when no such crimes were committed.—
rear. hear.) It was a measure more fitting for Mexico than
Ireland at the present moment, and it was because he saw
at it was uncalled for that he voted for the amendment pro-
Posed.
1110ividileT. Member having risen, and there being a cry of
e:rhLe SPEAKER put the question and amendment, upon
o
Place
.1 strangers were ordered to withdraw, but no division took
the; and on our re-admission to the gallery,
NobIeBORNE was addressing the House. He said that
er fLord opposite knew nothing whatever of the country
the°r, the question at all. In fact, with regard to Ireland,
• Was not a man in that House more ignorant, with the best
tntenti
I‘l tt. n'is, than the Noble Lord, the unsuccessful candidate for
h
the
waygbut he begged to tell- the Noble Lord that
eratio
ito deal with Ireland was not by maintaining an aristo-
ence on the opposition benches. But he understood
that that
aeon e Noble Lord accounted for his silence upon one occa-
/r uY declarin that a man would require to be six years in
ela"
before ld
itt of he con answer any questions in respect to the
Pte'
governing her. However, he (Mr. Osborne) would
Neneirer the Noble Lord's opinion in this respect, but he
vrith upon the First Minister of the Crown not to deal
was it " Measure in this way, for he would ask, was it right or
• ? respectful to Ireland to deal with this measure in this
--(Hear h 91,L ear.
and-ue tart of LINCOLN said he could assure the House,
the Hon. Member who had last spoken, and who had
"lade a speech which contained charges that he' felt assured
,entild not be justified by the circumstances, that though
laa might be ignorant of Ireland, and Irish affairs,
ue, Would wish, in reply to the Honourable Member,
Who had seconded the amendment, to address himself to the
subjects touched upon by him, and to explain his views and the
,views of the Government upon this question. But here let
aim remark, that when this House had been twice counted out
within a few minutes, and when he looked at the benches op-
Polite, and when he saw there only three or four of the repre-
sentatives of Ireland, he should sly it did appear to him that
they did not bestow much attention to the measure; and he
should add, that it would be acting a more becoming part, and
aPPear more respectful to Irish measures, if he, however_ igno-
rant of them, yet as the Secretary for Ireland, had endeavoured
to Postpone to a later period of the evening those observations
he had to make, and which he would not shrink from making
at any time, upon this subject. Nothing appeared to him
More probable than that he should be taunted with having
risen at a time when nobody expected he would have done
hi, or that he had shrunk from the opportunity of raising
s voice in favour of this measure, when a large
tntaber of the Irish Members should be present.
'ben he had heard several voices cry out for a division, he did
• wish to rise at that moment, as he thought there might be
ottersf present who would wish to take a part in the discussion
htit to hen he did not see any other Member prepared to do so,
he
deed'thn rose, and he begged to assure the House it was per-
;
r .mmaterial to him at what period of the night he ad-
'egged the House, for he was not so vain as to desire to see it
Z°Wded, while he was making a spech. Now, having made
ese observations in answer to the violent assault which had
been made upon him by the Hon. Member opposite, be would
Proceed to apply himself to the subject now under discussion,
a" in doing so he begged to assure the House that he would
endeavour to avoid all mention of irritating topics or party
allusions. He would endeavour to confine what he had to say
to a defence of this Bill, and a justification of the provisions it
Contained. The Hon. Member for Drogheda had done him
the honour to say that it must have been with pain that he (Lord
Lincoln) had ass
tuned the post of Secretary for Ireland. H.th
e
could assure rain height
Hon.
Much greater pain he had Baronet, that it was with
duty to propose this measurries,en ibutn at
sh ei
tdischargeduty o f hhi
es official
not shrink from it. He need not remind the House that when
jfirst this measure was introduceesd;itthhereGovernment were sub-
ected to all manner of charges with the course they
Were adopting. Hon. Members
had said that this measure was introduced without reason, or
b, who sat below
o
een delayed too
had
those charges ad
Cation ; and those Hon. Members on his side, or just
lthe gangway, said that dthtehamt etahseurfiersht
ng. Now, he conceive
eges ""
been disposed of by the first discussion which had taken place, and
t
it had always been held good that it was not desirable o
press on such a measure hastily, and he thought he could appeal
to the general policy of the present Government as a contra..
diction to the assertion that this measure had been introduced
without reason, or excuse, or justification, for doing so. Let
him remind the House that a similar Act to this existed in the
year 1835, and yet the Government allowed five years to elapse
without attempting to revise it. They had also allowed the
Party Processions Act to expire; and though they had revised
the Unlawful Oaths' Act, it had been deprived of many of its
most offensive and obnoxious clauses. Then there was the
Arms' Act, to which the Noble Lord, whom he now
saw sitting at the bar ( Lord Clements), gave such strenuous
opposition,that that Act had not been put in force in any offen-
s've manner. With regard to he charge of having delayed this
Bill too long, he begged to say he did not think that that charge
lay at the door of the Government. But he would much rather
bear with such a charge th in let it be said they were pressing it
en too hastily. The Hon. Baronet opposite complained of this
delay, and yet he moved the postponement of the measure ; and
therefore if there was any offence in delay, the Hon
Mem-
bem
r •
ppo t participated in it. His Right Hon. Friend near
hadsbleeen accused of not wishing to pass the Corn Bill, or
be would not have pressed on the first reading of the Bill—
and yet they were charged with delay. This Bill had been
sPoken of as an unconstitutional measure, and it should be ad-
witted that it was so, but it could only be justified by a stern
necessity, and in such a state of things as where life and pro-
party
„ were not protected by the law now within the compass of
"6 Constitution. In fact, the only liberty that now existed in •

Ireland was liberty fur murder and outrage; but there was no
liberty for the protection of the peaceable and those who should
be protected; and let him remind the House that this mea-
sure was intended to be applied to five counties only, for the
disea -e, through epidemic, he fear d was contagious in mane cases
also. The measures perrviousy introduced had been successful,
though they had nut been brought into operation. They
had been successtul in operating on toe minds of the people of
Ireland. On the previous debate there had been so many
cases adduced in support of the Bill, that he hesitated now in
troubling them further. He knew, however, that it was more
by cumulative instances, than by a tew strong cases, that
such a measure as the present ought to be grounded. The
Right Hen. Baronet ( Sir John Somerville) in the course of
his speech observed, that he considered the Government were
bound to do three things. In the first place, they were bound
to show the necessity for the measure; in the second place,
that the state of things complained of could not be
put down by the operation of the laws; and in
the third place they were bound to show that there was a fair
prospect of the Bill being effectual and efficacious in working a
change. He (Lord Lincoln) was ready to admit that this was
a fair representation of the duty of the Government in intro-
ducing such a Bill ; and if they were not already satisfied with
the cases that had been given in suppert of the measure,
he was willing to establish the case still further. But
before doing so he must refer to a statement made by
the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork (Mr. O'Connell),
who affirmed that the disorders complained of principally,
if not mainly, were of an agrarian character, and were to be
got rid of by a Bill for regulating the position of landlord
and tenant, and measures of a similar kind. By a careful
examination of the criminal returns, he (Lord Lincoln) found
this statement completely disproved ; and he should prove to
the House that though there was some connexion between
these outrages and the land, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was not justified in stating that either the majority or a
large proportion :of ,the crimes were of an agrarian character.
They prove that not only the landlord and tenant are inter-
fered with, but that they enter into every other relationship
of life. To use the language of the Honourable and
Learned Member for Cork, the whole body corporate was
diseased." To prove this, he could not go to a more unpre-
judiced source than the Commission authorised by the Govern-
ment to inquire into the state of Ireland, and which, three
months ago, presented its report. The Commission to which
he referred was that over which Lord Devon had pre-
side ; and he (Lord Lincoln) wished to call the
particular attention of the House to the returns
in the first volume of the appendix furnished by Colonel
Miller, superintendent of police. These returns, he might
add, were arrived at, with the view of establishing a fact that
disputes respecting land were at the bottom of these outrages.
This, however, was not proved by the returns furnished. The
offences, as furnished in 1844 by the constabulary police, are
given as agrarian, and otherwise. In that year there was the
alarming number of 6,337 cases of outrage. Of this number
5,3'36 were not agrarian, there being only 1,001 which were
of an agrarian character, or less than one-third. But of this
1,001 there were 417 which were not strictly agrarian, but
were cases of threatening notices. These, strictly speaking,
should be deducted. If they went into minute particulars, the
case was stronger still. They would then see that crimes of
the worst charactht were not agrarian, as the following would
show :

Incendiary fires, not agrarian
I „ agrarian

Assaulting and threatening life, not agarian... 238
f , PP agrarian . .... 12

Aggravated assault, not agrarian
, f „ agrarian..

Firing at the person, not agrarian..... ......... .. 47
~ „ agrarian ... .. 26

127

Homicides, not agrarian....
„ agrarian ...
This clearly showed that the statement of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman the Member for Cork was not borne out
by facts and figures. These returns had been classified as
aerarian and not agrarian at the desire of the Commission,
with the object of showing, no doubt, that agrarian outrages
were at the bottom of these outrages, but this had not been
borne out by the results. In further exemplification, he would
refer to returns which he had laid on the table of the House
last Friday, and which had been printed that morning. They
were so voluminous that he did not apprehend Hon. Members
could have examined them yet ; but they would find, if they
investigated, that what he had stated respecting the nature of
the outrages was more than borne out. He would read a few
extracts as bearing on the case. He had classified them
as far as time would allow, and they exemplified the
real social state of the five counties in which the
outrages had most prevailed. The first class from which he
would read was that relating to crimes arising out of disputes
between the landlords and tenants, but not strictly of an agra-
rian character.—( Hear.) He would remark that this was a
very small class in comparison with he others. The first case
he would refer to, was that of an attack of a person of the name
of Kelly, whose house, on the 13th of December, was entered
at night by a body of men whose faces were blackened. They
demanded Kelly, and were told that he was from home. They
sent a search and found his horse ; then they made a strict
examination of the premises, when Kelly was found, and
abused and threatened that his life would be taken if he did
not treat his tenants with snore kindness. The tenants referred
to were parties living on the property, but refused to pay any
rent. He knew some of the parties, and was willing to lodge
informations, but he durst net move in the case until he had
sold off his stock, and he could not do so if it was known he
would proceed against the parties. No one would purchase
from him. He would go from this class to another,
compelling servants to leave their employment. On the
29th of January, in the county of Wicklow, six persons entered
the house of a farmer and beat a servant of the name of
Michael, because he would not leave. There was another
case in which seven men beat a servant because he would not
leave so as to afford employment for some other parties. The
Noble Lord read several other cases of the same kind from the
counties of Wicklow and Tipperary. He had one case which
would show a minuteness of interference so strange as likely to
excite a smile from Hon. Members. On the 28th of Dec.,
three armed men assaulted a female servant employed by
Samuel Cowe, Esq., and that gentleman was fired at by the
parties. The complaint was that the servant, a dairymaid, was
too penurious in her supply of milk to the labourers. The
next case to which he would refer was interference to compel
masters to discharge servants. On the 27th July last,
in the county of Tipperary, an armed party as-
saulted a gentleman, because he would not dis-
miss certain labourers that were obnoxious to them.
He would now proceed to another class of offences, namely,
that to prevent persons entering into particular trades, or pre-
venting competition in the county of Clare. On October the
26th, at seven o'clock in the evening, the steward of a steam-
boat was violently assaulted by five men, because he got his
supply of milk from parties to whom they objected, and did
not deal with those which they desired. Another case hap-
pened on the 23th of August, in the county of Leitrim of a
similar character. In the county of Roscommon three car-
riers were violently assaulted by seven men, because they fed
their horses at the house of a particular party, and not at a
place where the assaulting persons were desirous they should do so.
There was another case which he could quote contained in the
returns he had laid upon the table of the House that evening ;
but he thought he had already read a sufficient quantity o.
these cases. He had read more of this class than he had origi-
nally intended, because they tended to show that crim,
could only exist where, by some means or other, society hat'
been greatly disorganised. Now, with the permission of the
House, he would read a class of cases under the heads of" Pre-
venting the Recovery of Debts," and " The Enforcement o
Contracts." In January last, alichael Doctrine, in the county
of Roscommon, was seriously maltreated because he had en-
forced a contract in returning a cow which (lid not turn ou
according to agreement. In February, a man named Mac Carty
was waylaid and brutally ill-used because he recovered money on
certain I 0 U vouchers. On the 7th April, in the same city,
man named Thomas Croft was " sworn" to refund a debt which
he had received ten years before. He felt he was trespassin
too long upon the time and attention of the House with thes,
details, but it was necessary that he should go into them, it,
order that the House should see the necessity for passing this
Bill. There was, therefore, another class of eases to which
he must refer. They were comprised under the heads of
" compelling people to marry," " not to marry," or" to giv(
fortunes to particular persons going to get married." On the
31st January last, Michael Byron, a comfortable farmer in
Roscommon, was " sworn" to fulfil his promise to marry " a
certain female." On 21st February Richard Guyer's louse
was burned, to prevent a particular marriage taking place.
About the same period a man named Turners was beaten,
and " sworn to marry a particular female." The
next class of cases to which he must call the at.
tendon of the House, arose out of giving evidence
against persons who violated the law ; but it would only be
necessary for him to read one case of this class. On the 22nd
of September, a man named Smith, living in Roscommon, and
his daughter, were seriously maltreated and beaten, for having
given evidence in a particular case. Another case of the same
nature had lately occurred in the county of Leitrim, where a
widow was " sworn " to intimidate her son not to prosecute a
charge which had been preferred against certain parties of
having murdered her husband in 1844. He would now,
with the permission of the House, read to them some de-
tails which he received yesterday in the ordinary course of
his official routine. There were five cases reported to him,
and three of them were cases of gross interference with the
social and domestic relations of life. He hoped the House
would understand why he had selected these particular classes
of cases. He had done so because it had been stated by Hon.
Gentlemen opposite that the outrages perpetrated in Ireland
were principally of an agrarian character. There was one par-
ticular case of an agrarian character, which had recently come
to his knowledge, and which he must read to the House. It
occurred in the county of Roscommon, where three men, armed
with pistols and bludgeons, broke into the house of a poor man,
and demanded that he should go down on his knees to be
"sworn." The man refused to do so without knowing why
and wherefore, and the consequence was he was immediately
fired at and wounded in three parts of his body. He was then
" sworn" to give up possession in favour of his brother-in-law,
who had occupied the cottage and lands some seven years be-
fore. He thought he had sufficiently shown the House that
there was no relationship in life in Ireland, either social
or domestic, which was not interfered with ; while, if
the House would take the trouble to look into the c ses
they would find that it was impossible in many parts of the
country that public duties could be performed. Having en-
tered into these details, he might be asked what was the
cause of these outrages, but he regretted his inability to
answer that question. From the evidence before Lord Devon's
Commission, i t
Catholic s wouldes s
iboen
aseen b y the
thatanswtehr
es
soef
outrages
tl‘rlarg. e
aroseahi 11,
country rsyt
attoeda.v avenge
aßom
an
malice prevailingin t
hesolicitor,manner
disputes and satisfy ainnnethrehecoh
out of an systemorganised
now came to another important part of the statement he was
the House. The Hon. and Learned
anxious to make to
Member for Cork, incidentally observed the other night, that
since the introduction of this Bill crime had considerably
Learned Member diminished in Ireland, and the Hon.
have
at-
tributed that diminution to the exertions Government were
eroef
making to remove the distress which existed in many parts
Ireland. He admitted that to some extent crime might
diminished within the last three or four months in Ireland,
bat when he looked to the cause of that diminution, he
dayss
length
otdidhf e nhoi think
Bl that
i iiitthceorutlod
it
te urged against the second reading
• had been ascertained that as
crime iwmaes intherefore,
gemp
oyytined crime diminished. And to some extent
he wnas readl -
e
the distress and
ivi
et ahndet m
ti
tthh td
etsht t
umt
ee
pa souorre st,
aodf t
eGnodveedr nt
orn
reendt
ufnoer
Ireland;their remedyt
but let him remind the House that both
however, deeply regrettedut;'' as of a temporary character, and
to provide for the future. He,
that with regard to this supposed di-
mnution of crime, it was his iluty to undeceive the Hon. and
House
nthe early part of the evening
hLeealarnidedupon rathe rt
afbolre Coof rtkh. e certain papers to which he
w
had alluded in the course of the
observations he had felt it his
duty to address to the House; they
1 setr December e thee returns of crimes
embHeren.tomtheme 3bel.t
perpetrated in Ire lma
ad
ddn
tri:forsto
imbne
ettnhheei
31st
presentyear.
He regretted
tAhlaaty
t,
ht
eh
see fi
returns
h
to enable them to check or compare his statements with the de"
tailed returns, but the truth was they only reached him yesterday,
and, of course, he could not lay them on the table before that
evening. This was a return of all aggravated ci imes, assaults, and
other offences which were committed between the month of May,
1845, and the month of May, 1846. It was only necessary,
in order to substantiate the correctness of this comparison,
that he should state that this return did not include outrages
or injuries designated as assaults on the police; neither did it