The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-30 00:00:00

STAINES AND RICHMOND RAILWAY.

Colonel THOMAS WOOD moved that this Bill be re-
committed to the Committee on Group 20.
Mr. SOTHERON, the Chairman of the Committee, said
that when this Bill was before the Committee the solicitor to
the Woods and Forests came before them with two cluuses ;
the first gave the assent of the Crown to the Bill, and the
second contained conditions which it wag impossible
for the parties to fulfil without exceeding their esti-
mates and deviating from their levels. The Committee
therefore threw out the Bill. On the 4th of May the parties
came before the Committee and stated that the Commissioners
of Woods and Forests were ready to accede to conditions which
the promoters could adopt without infringing their estimate or al
tering their levels, and they, therefore, wished the case re-opened.
The Committee, however, refused to accede to their request, but
stated that they would make a special reportetno h
e
staved to thee.
In this case thousands of pounds might have
f
promoters of this Bill if the Commissioners_
Forests could have made up their minds before Woods and
the 20th of
March or the 29th of April, instead of the 9th of May. Would
such a course be a just thing to either the promoters or the
opponents of the Bill ? Supposing they allowed justice to
those parties who opposed the Bill, . and who, having
overcome all objections, the promoters would beinjured, and
supposing that they allowed justice to the parties promoting the
Bill, what was the condition of those opposing the Bill ? By
re-committing this Bill, they would do great injustice. He
wished the House to consider whether it was right to allow
parties to make such an application to the House ? He wished
to ascertain what was the intention of the House with
reference to this subject ?
After a few words from Lord Ga.a..Nvite.E SOMERSET, Mr.
BARCLAY, and Mr. ESTCOURT, which did not reach the
gallery,
Mr. WAKLEY said, that if in this case the House should
decide against, the re-committal of this Bill, he must say that
it would be the most unjust decision it had ever come to—
( Hear, hear)—and that:was saying a great deal.—( Hear, hear.
and laughter.) Would the House for one moment attend
to him whilst he stated the facts of the case ? What was the
case ? That parties promoting the formation of a railroad
from Richmond to Staines, ten miles, went before the Com-
mittee of their House, and after being before that Com-
mittee a few days, or a certain length of time, the
Committee gave in their report. And what was the
report ? That the consent of the Commissioners of the
Woods and Forests was tendered, and that the surveyor of the
promoters of the Bill in his examination stated that he was
prepared to make a line in conformity with the recommenda-
tion, when it became evident that the promoters could not
form such a line, as it must be contrary to the plans laid down
and deposited in the Board of Trade. The Committee there-
upon closed their proceedings on the Bill without
hearing the whole of the evidence in favour of it.
It would appear that this matter hat ben considered; but he
must say that it had not rightly been decided upon by the
Woods and Forests. To this he had no objection, but it be-
came a material question %%hen the public convenience was
concerned. (Cries of " Order, order.") There might
be an outcry, but still he must assert, that if this were
a question of 40, 50, or 70 miles of railway, there might
be a matter for consideration; but he must assert
that the case of the promoters had not been properly
heard, and when the question was whether ten miles of railway
should be made, at an expense of 150,0001 , or whether a Bill
should be ob.aineil without any reference to public convenience,
he thought that the necessities of 150,000 people had nut been
sufficiently attended to.

Mr. BERNAL. thought that great negligenco had been
exhibited on the part of the Commissioners of the Woods and
Forests.

Ur. WOOD (Brecon), hoped the House would give the
motion a favourable consideration, as the promoters had been
treated with much injustice.
C,lonel WOOD considered as the promoters of the line had
expended a large sum of money in prepcdring, their case for
Parliament, that they ought to refer the rule again to the Com-
mittee, in order that the disputed question might be settled.
Mr. TANCRED said this was the second session the Bill
hail been before the House. It was thrown out last session
by the Committee of Selection oe account of some informality.
He submitted that from the first moment of its pro-
jection
it was quite obvious that the Woods
and Forests would not consent to the, passing of the line through
the property of the Crown. When they came before the
Hou e this year they were in the same position with respect to
the Woods and Forests, as they still refused their consent. The
Committee to whom the Bill was referred found it impossible
to proceed with it under such circumstances, and they there-
fore negatived the preamble. After detailing the proceedings
of the Committee, he concluded by expressing his opinion
that, in cases in which the consent of the Wo.Als and Forests
was necessary to the construction of a railway, that the fact of
suet, consent having been obtained should be shown before the
Committee of Selection.
Sir G. GREY must say that if the promoters of the Bill
were not able to produce the assent of the Commissioners of
the Woods and Forests before the Committee ,in censequence
of the delay of the Government, it would be a great hard-
ship to prevent their Bill from proceeding through the House.
If, on the other hand, the non-production of that
assent was caused by a want of due diligence on the part of the
promoters, he could not see any reason why the decision of the
Committee should be reversed. Now, what he wanted to know
was, whether the delay rested with Government; and he should
not like to give his vote on this occasion without some explana-
tion on this subject from a member of the Government.
Mr. HODGSON said that the reason the Committee re-
jected the Bail was because they had deemed the estimate in-
sufficient.
Colonel WOOD said the Hon. Member was mistaken as to
the facts. The fact was, that, in the prosecution of the works,
the Woods and Forests required that the railway should be
made not only under the park, but under the river.
Sir R. H. INGLIS said, that previously to giving any vote
on this subject, he thought the House ought to be in possession
of the whole of the correspondence which bad passed between
the Commissioners of the Woods and Forests and the pro-
moters of the Bill. They would then be enabled clearly
to understand the position in which they were placed. He
would beg leave to move, therefore, that the present discus-
sion be postponed till this day week.
The amendment having been put,
Mr. C. P. VILLIERS said that he would believe that his
Honourable and Learned Friend the Member for the
University of Oxford was very anxious to have further
information on the matter before the House, but he was just
as sure that the parties more immediately interested would
rather have a decision at the present moment. He begged to
say, before they came to a division, that the Select
Committee had, as yet, pronounced no decision on the Bill.
The Hon. Chairman of the Committee had made no complaint
against any person or office. He had stated the case very tempe-
rately and fairly, and, as the case would be establishing no
precedent, he trusted that the House would consent to the
motion.

Lord LINCOLN said that, judging from the circumstances
he had heard since he came into the House, he felt inclined to
support the amendment of his Hon. and Learned Friend the
Member for Oxford. He (Lord Lincoln) was connected with
the Hoard of Woods and Forests in the last year, and he recol-
lected that precisely the same line was laid before them, and the
Board then intimated their determination to resist it to the
utmost. They had commissioned an eminent engineer to re-
port as to the effect the line would have upon the Crown pro-
perty, and he had reported that the line was very objectionable,
but that no other could be carried through the same country.
The line was dropped last year, and was now
brought forward in precisely the same shape.
He should not be disposed to vote against the BilL He was
astonished to hear the charge brought against his Hon. Friend
at the head of the Woods and Forests.
Mr. WAKLEY rose to explain.
Colonel WOOD hoped that the House would accede to the
proposal of the Hon. Member.
The debate was then adjourned till Monday week.
NORTHERN AND SOUTHERN CONNECTING

RAILWAY.

On the motion that this Bill be read a second time

111;.iiaLEYmo;ed,asanamendment, that it be read a
second time that day six months. In doing so the Hon.
Mem-
ber presented a petition against further proceeding with the
sehente, signed by 12,000 of the scripholders. The original num-
ber of shareholders was 16,000, so that here were three-fourths
of the whole who objected to the Bill going on. An application
had been made to the managing committee, to call a public
meeting of the scripholders, and take its sense, in accordance
with the sessional resolution that bad been agreed to,but th
cwoernrem4trtteaezteyfpursoedeeetdoinacwt
with
irhn that reasonable request, and
e
expense on the shareholders. e Bill, thus entailing additional
The fact was, the shareholders had
been completely deceived th regard to the line which was pro-
posedto connect the importantw manu!acturing town of Watfoidzanet
one end, with the large and populous town of Dorking,
other.—(A laugh.) The whole affair was a monstrous
ception, from which the scripholders prayed now to bereuliecved..
Mr. T. WOOD said he knew nothing of the parties,
though he considered the scheme would rbe of great use
in connecting in a circular manner round Lon-
don. It left the London and Birmingham Railway at
Watford, and passing along the valley of the Colne
it crossed the Great Western Railway, and went on its ter-
thus affecting a circular communication
minus at Dorking,
round London.—(A laugh.) He believed, notwithstanding
the laughter of the lion. Member for Finsbury, that a line of
goods..and troops,
this kind would be very useful to transmit
and would be also of considerable benefit to the public.
Captain FIT Z3IAURICE stated that he had three petitions
from the landowners on the line against the Bill, and praying
that it might not be allowed to pass.
Alderman HUMPHERY said that he had a petition of
some consequence to present against the Bill. It was from
the South Western line, stating that the proposed railway
would cross their route, to the risk of mischief to the pas-
sengers and detriment to the line.
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, which did not reach the gallery,
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE said, that in his belief the only
persons in favour of the line were those on the committee,
who had got the 10 per cent. deposit of the unfortunate
shareholders. They had called on the committee to assemble
a public meetine to take the sense of the shareholders as to
the propriety of going on, but the committee declined doing
PO, and wished to go on till the third reading. The majority
of ;he seripholders were against the scheme.
The SPEAKER, having put the question that the Bill be
read a. second time, . .

The motion was negatived without a division.
RAILWAYS.

The Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Newport Railway
and St. Andrews's Branch) was a third time, ai were also
the Arbroath and Forfar Railway and the Lancashire and
North Yorkshire Railway.
STIRLING AND fUNFERMLINE RAILWAY.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
LONDON AND BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY EX IEN-

SION.
Mr. SPOON ER presented a petition ilgair,A this B•ll
EAST LONDON RAILWAY.
*
Sir E. COLEBROOKE presented a petition praying that
the I-louse ixould re-consider the report of the Committee, as
the Bill had been described by a misnomer.
Lord G. SOMERSET thought that the re-consideration
taight be allowed, a; it was evident that the mistake was merely
a clerical error.
A considerable number of other petitions were then_.pre-
seated, amongst wh:ch was one from Sir C. Douglas, and from
several parties complaining of the break of gauge.
BUSINESS OF THE SESSION.
Sir R. PEEL—In pursuance of the notice which I have
given, I beg leave to move that the House, at its rising, do ad-

journ to Friday next, the sth of June ; and I think it is right
to give notice what is the busines which I, on the part of the
Government, intend to bring forward. The House will meet
on Friday, the sth of June. I propose that we shall
then proceed with the Supply ; on the Monday after
I propose to move the second reading of the
Irish Bill for the prevention of assassination. I would
move it first on Friday, only I understand that some of
the Irish Members are absent.—( Hear, hear.) On Friday, the
12th of June, I propose to bring forward the question of the
sugar duties; and, on Thursday, the 11th of June, I
will move that the orders of the day have a precedence
over notices of motion, but that arrangement will not take
place until Thursday, JunelB, so that there will be ample notice.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL begged to inform the Right Hon.
Baronet, that so long at the Irish Coercion Bill wasthbeefday
before
the House the Irish Nlembers would oppose orders of
having precedence, and they would also move an amendment
upon every order.
before Ir. Tt
h.
eDUN Co
House
tB E
was said,u otdhearts t
ow hde nt
htahte
tChoer nc Billust was'
Bill Bcoilelreaniodo thßeill.PooNr-olaww, Removal
orlAiallw wereßill beforeas ptolisetpolroiesdh
indefinitely. They were going to
Bill. There
aLer
week en the Irish Coercion
another Bill, and that was the enrolment of the
militia. He had called attention to this Bill
long before Easter, and now it was Whitsuntide.
Now they had not seen this Bill, which ought to have been
laid on the table before they separated for the Whitsuntide
holidays. He feared that would be deferred until the end
of the session, when few Members were present, and when it
was possible it might pass without that attention being bestowed
upon it which it deserved.
After a few words from Colonel WOOD,
Sir R. PEEL said he had felt certainly that the Govern-
ment might have been in a position to have brought forward the
Poor-law Removal Bill before this period of the session, but he wa
sure the House would make allowance for the peculiar position
in which her Majesty's Government were placed by the great
quantity of business which they had to discharge. They were
really now devoting sixteen or eighteen hours a day in the dis-
charge of their public duties. In the present state of public
business he saw no reason why they should not take the
Bill on Friday next.—( Hear, hear.) But any one must
feel that the Government were bound to proceed with
the Irish Coercion Bill at the earliest possible moment.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, if the preliminary
discussion of which the Honourable Member for
Maldon had given notice with respect to the Poor-
law Removal Bill, should be affirmed by the
House, it would be necessary to commit the Bill pro
forma, for the purpose of remodelling it in
accordance with that notice. It was most desirable that the
House should come to a determination with reference to that
notice, in order that the Bill might be taken on Friday, if
possible.
Mr. HUME expressed his regret that the more important
measures before the House should be delayed by discussing a mea-
sure of minor interest. He wished to impress on the Right Hon.
Baronet the necessity of postponing the Irish Coercion
Bill until all the other important measures before then
House had been discussed and passed.—( Hear, hear.)
The way to save time was to make good use of the time they
had. If he persevered in proceeding with the !Coercion Bill
he would stop every measure which would be useful to
the country. In saying this he did not simply state his own
opinion, but the opinion of these on his side of the House—
and those whom he met out of doors were of the same opinion.
Mr. G. BANKES said, that his Right Hon. Friend at the
head of the Government might recollect that it was understood
that the general preamble of the Poor-law Bill should be dis-
cussed on going into Committee.—(Hear.) He thought, there-
fore, that it should not be taken for granted that they were to be
strictly limited to the discussion on the amendment which had
been suggested.—( Hear, hear.) It would be in the recollection
of the House that several weeks ago he proposed a Select
Committee with reference to this Bill, for anticipating
this very difficulty; but at the present moment they
certainly could not do otherwise than follow what the Right
Hon. Baronet was pleased to propose ; but it must be under
stood at the same time that they were at libert7 to discuss the
general principle.—( Hear, hear.)
431 r. CHRISTIE gave notice that ha should move, on the
16th of June, for a Select Committee to inquire into the laws
with respect to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge.
Mr. WODEHOUSE moved for a return of the r itio of the
total amount levied during the. year 1843 for poor rates in the
counties of EriLtland, and also the total amount of real pro •
party as bearing proportion to the amount of the poor-rates so
levied ; the counties to be classed as under-mentioned :-
Ist class, the manufacturing counirles ; 2nd class, the mineral
counties ; 3rd class, the agricultural counties ; 4th class, the
metropolitan counties.
THE OREGON TERRITORY.

Mr. H1.131E said, that it was reported that a formal notice
had been sent to this country by the President of the United
States to the British Government, terminating the Oregon
Convention of 1637. Now he wished to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury, if the report were
correct ?

Sir R. PEEL replied, that the American President had cer-
tainly given formal notice of the termination of the existing
Convention, which is to take place at the end of this year ; and
in giving that notice, he adopted the terms agreed upon by
both Houses of the American Legislature, in the hope that it
might lead to an arni,:able adjustment of the question.—(Wear,
hear,) _ .