The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-17 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, _ FitiDAY
_3-1.'61itN1144a6-, 11, 1846.

the Crown. Ile begged his Noble and Learned Friend
(Lord Brougham) to remark the exactness of the words
of the message, which very words had been engrossed in
the preamble of the Bill. Her Majesty stated that she
deeired to make provision fur Lord Hardinge, in support
of the dignity which had been conferred on him, and in
consideration of his great services. He said the House
of Commons had passed this Bill at the suggestion of the
Crown. Now this House had the same Bill be-
fore it. It was an understanding between the two
Houses that their Lordships' House should not
alter a money Bill, yet this House proceeded to do so ;
but he defied the Noble and Learned letrd to produce
one instance of thus increasing a grant after it had come
from the other House. The consequence would be that
the Bit would be lost. He acknowledged the high
merit of the Noble Lord's services in the field, and her
Majesty had conferred the dignity of the peerage upon
him, a reward which had been received with approba-
tion by the country. He said the Noble and Learned
Lord asked :or instances, and he could give him one in
which the poverty of a Noble Lord was made the sole
basis of provision. He would not give the name.
Another ease he recollected, in which it was supposed
that the Peer had sufficient to support his dignity, but
it was found afterwards that he had not, and provision.
was made tor him on that accoant. He would not men•
Lion the name. He begged their Lordships to consider
what would be the coact of leaving this lysticu'ar point
to: caprice or to chance what effect it- would
have on the mind of military men who might
have conferred on the in this expensive honour.
ft appeared that the sum of 5.:0001 a-rear, and 2.000/
a-year were to be granted to Lord Hardiege aid Lord
respectiveiv , by the East. India Company for
the purpose of maintaining the dignity of their positions
in that House. He quite agreed with his Noble Friend
the lute President of the Board of Control, that these
grants wt re to be made out of the funds of the East
India Company, with the consent of her Majesty, and it
was necessary -for her Majesty to give her consent be-
fore any such grant could here me valid. It was, there-
fore, evident that it was only as servants of the Crown
that Ministers could take any notice of the making of
the grant, but it was equally evident that as such ser-
vants they could not do otherwise than take notice of it.
He had aevised her Majesty to give her consent, and
such being the case, they had agreed to bring in an Ail
of Parliament for that purpose, and he would remind
their Lordships that in the event of the Bill being
altered in that Reuse, there was a possibility that • the
annuities might be lost altogether ; and he intreatea,
therefore, their Lordships, for the sake of the army, for
the sake of the officers, and for the sake of their families
—for it should be remembered that the position of those
.amilies depended upon their vote that night- to confirm
he decision at which the other "louse had arrived.
The Marquis of CLANUICARDE lid( that he had to
justify bunseiffor the vote which he was ab .ut to give,
for he had, lie must conft,ss. changed his principles. Ile
had certainly voted in opposition to the annuity the
other night, but tie had done so witheut sufficient consi-
deration, and without once reading the Bill %% h eh con-
iained the clause, which it was now desirable to erase,
and which his Noble Friend (Lord Monteaele) had so
strongly inveighed against. It now appeared evident
hat this grant must have the consent of the Crown; and
here was the further consideration that arose with re
Bard to the position of the Governmeet, and the circum-
stance sail: more important as regarded this debate ; that
these grants were not made so much as rewards for the
services which had been rendered as to enable the
Nobie persons en whom they were conferred to support
the dignity of the Peerages which had been b: stowed
upon thew. It should be observed that the grant t
Lord Hardinge was limited to his own life and that of
his two succeeding heirs male, while that of Lord Gough
was limited to his own life alone. The Neble and Gallant
Duke on the cross-benches had rightly reminded them
that as it was the duty and the privilege of the House of
eommons to make grants of public money, if this Bill
were altered at all the annuities might ba altogether
lost to the noble persons f'or whom they were intended,
and should, therefore, vote with his Noble Friend.
The Earl of GALLOWAY was surprised at the vi-
tuperation of a Noble Lord connected with Ireland,
not now in his place, the other night, although he had
-abstained from moving the amendment. Like the Noble
Marquis, he had come down the other day ignorant of
the clause which regulated these annuities, and was
anxious to justify himself from the charge of inconsis-
tency. But seeing that not only the Noble Duke (the
Duke of Wellington),• who had spoken from the cro:s
benches, but that other members of the Government, of
which he was a member, and also several members of
he present Governtntnt were induced to alter their
mode of proceedings he felt that, though just contrary
to the vote which he had previously given, he should
vote with the Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Lana-
lowne) on
,the present ocefieion.
The Earl of WICKLOW quite agreed with the Noble
Marquis, the Postmaster-General, (the Marquis of
Clanricarde), that this vote ought to be sustained. He
could not forget that the Noble Lord, from whom the
proposition hed originally emanated, had refrained from
putting the amendment himself, but had expressed a de-
erre that some other Noble Lord of greater weight in the
House would put it to the House. Then up jumps the
Noble Duke on the cross•benches (the Duke of Rich-
mond), and put the vote to the House, and thus secures
:he Noble Baron's vote. Truly he believed that no one
was more surprised at the effect of his own eloquence,
than was the Noble Baron himself ; nor any one, he
believed now, that more regretted it. Seeing, then, the
ebange of parties in the country, and the change in the
Ministry, and the possibility which existed, that in the
event of their not acceding to the proposition cf the
Noble Marquis (Lansdowne), that the annuities to the
two noblo persons for whom they were intended might
be endangered, he should certainly go in opposition to
the vote which he had given the other evening. He
thought it would be imprudent and impolitic to adhere
to the decision which had been taken on the former on
_iasion, and he called on them to support the Bill in its
original form.
After a few words of explanation from the Marquis of
LANSDOW NE,
The Duke of RICHMOND said he must deny the
imputation that he bad ever said anything reflecting on
the character of le•rd Hardinge. What he stated was,
that Government should take care to prevent a divided
command in India in future, and to take care that the
Governor• General should not be second in command,
lie must say in taking the course he did on the present
Bill, he was not in the least degree actuated by party or
political considerations.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of GALLOWAY explained, that he had no
intention of attributing any such motives to the Noble
Duke (the Duke of Richmond).
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when there
ppeared—
' For the amendment (restoring the Bill) 47
Against it IS

after the hat:le of Talavei a and a brilliant cam.,
paign in Span, was made a Viscount,, and received
p,nsion of 2,0001. a year. This w as considered ade-
quate compensation for the great services rendered thin,
and therefore he thought the provisions of the pre-
sent Bill, as it original!), stoood, was ample enough to
meet the case of the distinguished individuals in question.
If they were to inv.ke any alteration in the present 8,11,
they would be doing more for Lord Hardinge than had
been done for those who had rendered the most re-
markable services, mad obtained the most splendid ad
vantag,fS which had accrued to this country during the
last war. According to the tenor of this Bill, it was
arranged that the stun of 3,00(1 alear should be given
to Lord Hardinge, and the sum of 2,0001. a-year to Lr,rd
Gough, over and above the sums which had already been
voted by the East India Company, with a view to enable
them to support the dignity of their peerage in that
House. If this Bill were to be passed in its present
shape, it won'tf be giving more than had ever been
n in any pre'', ioui instancy. In ord« r to bring this
matter propel ly heft re the House, he should remind
their their Lordships that the annuities, to w hieh reference had
been made,' had been granted by the East India Company,
and were in Wet a part of the government of the Com:
paly, Thus then, in tact, there was the guarantee
of the State. Now it was well known that as the East
India Company could not guarantee anything without the
atchority of the Saver,-ign, the Ncble Lords who were
about to enter upon the enjoyment of those annuities
would have the benefit of the Sovereign's authority;
auAl the ret lv, therehqe, to those who rook a stand
upon this Bi-1 was, that there was only a temporary
interest in tee possession (it these fy whom the annui-
ties were granted, but he thought that what re bad ju-t
,laced was an asurnnee that that ground was invalid. In

, or disapprobation had been given by Lord Ellenborough
On account of that circumstance, the province continued
to be administered to by Sir C. Napier in a manner
which was, as the Hon. Member had said, totally dif-
ferent from the manner in which the other provinces of
India were governed. He believed that in the month of
Jury, 1844, the Court of Directors of the Esst
India Company addressed a communication to
the Governor-General of India, and advised him
to propose fur their consideration a plan for
the civil and military administration of the pro-
vince of Sinde, in conformity with the usual prac-
tice in such cases. In consequence of the important
Matters which had to come under their considera-
tion with respect to the affairs of the I'unjaub, and
al,o several other weighty matters, the Governor-
General had not sent any plan, as he had been advised
by the Court of Directors. In December of the same
year the Secret Committee made a similar communica-
tion to the Governor-General with respect to the expe-',
diency of governing Snide like other provinces ; but the
Governor-General, up to the month of June in this
present year, had not returned any answer, nor sent
to any place. He could inform his Honourable
Friend, that on the 24th of June (that was June last), '
,itnilar orders had been sent out to to the Governor-
General with regard to the annexation and government
of Sinde.

Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN wi,hc d to ask the Hon.
Member for Montrose, whether, with regard to the
discussion on the Charitable Trusts Bill, which came
on yesterday, he (Mr. Hume) had any objection to
plstce on the votes of the House the clause as amended?
Mr. HUME said he would do it on Wednesday next.

the ease of Lord Cothoriv, for whose eminent :ervices
in Canada a pension had been granted by the North
West Company, the same course had been observed.
The object of granting that annuity was to enable him
to maintain the 4,nity of his Pec rage in that House,
and no doubt had ever been started of the validity or
the permanence of the grant. He (the Marquis of
Lawdowne) had a long list b;!fure him of distinguished
individuals upon whim similar grants for similar ser-
vices had been conferred. The first he had upon that
iist was the Marquis of Corn wallis,4whom he had known
in early life, and of whom he never could speak but
with tl7e tumost respect. Then there was the late Lord
Wellesley, than wh m no man had renderud more
eminent s rvices to his cournry in Itdia. TLese, and ali

he rest, were rewa,rd,d ju.st in the same manner ;

that there was little doubt of the continuance of the
Annuity, especially when it was recollected that if the
interest of the East India Company was a contingent

interest, the (7rottt n held the r,version. Again, he must
Nanlntl their Lordships that if this Bill were to be car-
ried in its pr• sent state, the amount conferrt.d woe],
_urpess aii the lavish txpe.atiture of the last war, when
tie curie, cy was depteeint,d, and, consequently, the
tt,tal stuns w re of less value. And, further than this,

he must also big to remind them that if they refused to
:ic,,ede to this proposition; they would be entering into a
or.test wish the other House of Parliament, which has,
at all times, assumed the right of managing the public
money. It a-ould be expre, sing an opinion contrary to
that House ; and, in tact, would be ending down an
n:led money Bill to that House, and then by he likely
10 create an increased jealousy in that House, a hit+ was.
an evil at al times to be deprecated. Thee was no
no doubt but that the representatives of the potpie were
!he proper persona to impose the taxes which
the people had to pay, and to direct the way
in which they ought to be levied. On this very
day he had received a letter from a distir:guised lad,:
regarditig p rson who was the subject of this convex-
satiou, and who was alike distinguished by her owe
merits and for ha- ancient descent. This was Lady
Emily Hardinge, now Viscountess Hardinge. This
lady stated that she anti her family—and she was quite
saru that their feelings were quite in consonance war
those of LOrd Harditige himself—she stated that they
were perfectly satisfied with the amount of the allow-
ance and the way in which it was conferred. She was
the grand-daughter; of the first Lord Camden, than
whom a more excellent lawyer and upright individual
:serer existed. She was the niece also of the second
Lord Camden, who renounced the per tentage on the
Exchequer, which he was granted in consideration of
his public services. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne)
hoped, therefore, their Lordships would rescind the
vote which had been come to on this question on a
former occasion, and vote for the measure brought in
by the late Government,
The Duke of ItL2IIMOND opposed the motion. His
r,pinion on the subject was unchanged. The Noble
Marquis stated that he bad received a letter from Ladv
Hardinge, in which she expressed a desire that the sub-_
. .

would not cause any division in their Lordships'
[louse. Ile (the Duke of Richmond) could not, how-
ever, look upon it as a private question. It was on public
grounds he opposed it. There were few prizes in the
lot of a soldier's life, and the ability, energy, and
courage displayed by their armies entitled the to the

.
highest rewards the country could bestow. He would
lILK, (lid the grant of foreign lands to the Noble Duke, in
consideration of his great services, weigh for a mo-
ment when the Parliament of this country rewarded his
lorious achievements ? No, the country considered
that it was deedly his debtor, notwithstanding all the
rewards he received from foreign powers. He (the
Duke of Richmond) was surprised at the conduet of his
Noble Friend (the Marquis of Lansdowne) in taking the
course he at present adopted, fur three weeks ago when
the Bill was read a second time he did not vote at all, but
went below the woolsack. The Noble Marquis—also
the Postmaster General—would, he hoped, adopt the
same course he did then, and vote against the measur,
—(Laughter)—end he trusted the Noble Lord (the
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster) would not go
`,elow the woolsack, but express his opinion unre-
,urvedly on the Bill. lie saw no reason to alter the
opinion he formerly expressed, and he would firmly
resist the moticn of the Noble Marquis.
The Earl of RIPON defended the course adopted by
the late Government in regard to the present measure,
In questions of this kind it was difficult to fix the precise
Amount to be affixed for such services as those which had
bwett rendered; still he thought enough had been named
in the all. In the case of Lord Nelson, for the brilliant
,ervices he had rendered, the utmost sum granted was
300/. a-year. In other cases the same principles of
economy had been olkerved. It was a painful circum
stance to interfere with a feeling of generosity, but
he thought it was the duty of the Government
to see that no undue application of the public
money was made. With regard to the case of Lord
Hardinge, he was in India the representative of
the East India Company, and had advantages and emo.
iuments such as did nut fall within the reach of those
who held office under the Crown. The'company had,
on many occasons, conferred great advantages on those
who held office under them. Lord Clancarty, Lord
Cornwallis, and other Governors General of India had
received pensions and large grants of money. Lord
Hastings received no less a sum than 60,000/., and his
son l'ad also been treated with great liberality. Lorei
Wellesley had also been treated in a similar spirit. The
grant proposed by the company in the present instance
was said to be offered independent of the execu-
tive and the Legislature, and that that grant
should not be allowed to regulate the one
proposed by Parliament. But this was not the fact.
The Government was 1, irtually a party to the act of th,
company, as the latter held its charter under the Parlia
went of the couctry, and conducted its operations it,
harmony with it. If they gave reins to their generosity
they would involve themselves in continual diffichlties.
They ought to deal as liberally as the circumstances
would warrant, but nothing more; and he was per-
,uaded, thatif a grant of 8,000/. a year was allowed to
Lord Gough, it would be the means of serious incon-
venience in future, when similar cases were to be con-
4dered. From all precedents, and judging from the
circumstances of the case, the late Government con-

Majority for the Government ....... 29
The report was then brought up and received.
Several Bills were advanced a stage, and the House
ljourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 16.
The SPEAKE4i to'ik the Chair at Four o'clock.
NEW MEMBERS.

Mr. SHELL (Master of the Mint) took the oaths and
his seat as Member fur the birough of Dungarvan.
Lord A. PAGET also took the oaths and his seat as
Member for the city of Lichfield.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.—ROYAL.
ASSENT.

fir Augustus Clifford, the Usher of the Black Rod.
ippeared at the bar, to summon the Speaker and the
Rouse to hear the royal assent given to several public
and private Bills, (for which see Lords' report).
The SPEAKER returned after the absence of half .an
hour, and informed the Rouse of the Bills to which the
royal assent had bcen given.
A messenger from the Court of Chancery brought up
zeveral returns.
MANCHESTER AND SOUTHAMPTON
RAILWAY. •

sidered they could not go further than the provisions
contained in the Bill as it originally stood. He did not
wish to cast the least re flection on the distinguished in-
dividuals in question, as he felt it a high honour to have
been connected in office with the Government under
...hich such great men ha i achieved their brilliant vic-
tories; stilt he was bound to act in the way he now
proposed.
Lord BROUGHAM said he had not spoken on the
previous occasion, when the Bill was discussed, but since
then he had carefully considered the question, and he
must on the present occasion vote against the amend-
ment which had been proposed. As he understood the
question, the real matter was the propriety of granting
sufficient sums to the distinguished individuals in ques-
tion, in order to enable them to maintain with dignity
the rank of peerage which had been conferred on them.

On the motion of Lord E. BRUCE the Manchester
and Southampton Railway Bill was read a third thnr
and passed ; as were also the following Bills
-rate Market, Cambridge Improvement, and
Estate Bill.

DERBYSHIRE, STAFFORDSHIRE, AND WOR-
CESTERSHIRE JUNCTION RAILWAY.
. .

The report upon the Derbyshire. Staffordshire, and
Worcestershire Junction Railway Bill was coziaidlereti
and agreed to.
EDINBURGH AND GLASGOW UNION CANAL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.•
SLIGO SHIP CANAL BILL,

Much as had been said on the other side, this was the
real point they should keep in view, and the wording of
the preamble of the Bill showed that such
was the original intention of its introduction.
lie argued, that the consequence of this doctrine would
be, that where a peerage was conferred on a distin-
guished military officer, that House would make inquiry
into his private fortune. He did not see what the Go-
vernment bad to do with the East India Company and
their grants ; for although he admitted that their
grants could not pass without the sanction of Parlia-
ment, still that did not make their money the money of
the Government, or of the public ; the money if not
bestowed in that way could remain in the treasury of
the Corporation, and never would pass into the coffers
4* the Exchequer. Ile said it was difficult to limit the
d for military services. Ye silt might be asked, whsi.
Cher 5,000/. was not enough for Lord Hansinge ? but he
anseered, that he had betore this, seen 2,0001. and red
ribbons given to men for services which, in after years,
if their fame ever should pass into after years,
would make men raise their hands in wonder, that
so illiberal a reward had been bestowed on the brilliant
actions of Sir Henry Hardinge. As for the constitu-
tional question, he agreed with the Noble Lord (Lans-
downe) that it would be better far that the privileges of
.he people's representatives should be left unquestioned
by them, arid uninterfered with. Bat he contended, for
the privileges of their Lc rdships' House, that their
Lordships had a right to exercise their judgment on the
Bills sent up from the House of Commons, and were not
to swallow either the whole Bill untouched, or to reject
it altogether. The letter from the Noble Lady, which
had been introduced by the Noble Earl, affecting and
powerful as it was, had just an opposite effect on his
mind, from that which it seemed to have produced on the
Noble E-trl's. Perhaps the letter might have been ex•
peeted from the grand-daughter of Lord Camden, and
the daughter of the late Marquis, but he contended that
from a sense of justice to Lord Hardinge, stimulated by
the generous and disinterested conduct of the Noble
Lady whose letter bed been alluded to, their Lordships
tu.t.-ht to deal liberally in this cue.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he had been in
the Government when this Bill was introduced into the
House, and, therefore, he begged to submit a few ob-
servations to their Lordships. He begged their Lord-
ships to r. collect that it was a money Bill sent up from
the Commons, proposing agrgit made under a standing
Corder a am Litfilool Muided upv2 wsilipz from

i way
and
Wearmouth Dock Pur-
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
DUBLIN WIDE STREETS BILL.
Sir J. Y. BULLER brought up the report on the
Dublin Wide Streets Bill.
AYRSHIRE AND BRIDGE OF WEIR RAILW AY.
On the motion of Blr. DUNCAN, the Lords' Amend-
ments to this Bill were considered and agreed to.
y
Gloucester and
Bl\lial.nchester Railwa Bill.
LORDS' AMENDMENT.
The Lords' Amendments to the following Bills were
considered and agreed to :
Ashburton, Newton, and South Devon Railway. Bill.
BBiuremkiinngghhaamm,siLiiirechnfiellit ansyd
Dean
WycombeF ores Forest Railwayßailway
ailw3 Bill.
aß,ill.
Londonr
GeatWenstt, earn and
Croydon
Branch) Bill.
Newcastle and Darlington Junction Railway (Durham
chase and Branches) MIL
and Sund, rland Rai Railway (Thames Junction
South Wales Railway Bill (No. 2).
THE ANNEXATION OF SINDE.
Mr. HUME. seeing the Right lion. Baronet the Pre-
sident of the Beard of Control in his place, wished to
ask him a question with respect to Sinde. He wished
to know if Sinde had been annexed to the British empire,
as was declared by Lord Ellenborough to be the; intention
of Goverment, in the same manner in which ileylon was
annexed ; or whether it was to be considered as a por-
tion of the possessions of the East India Company? If
so, he wished to ascertain what course was to be taken
by the Government, as the government of that province
was altogether different from any other place in the East
India Company's possessions, as it was in neither pre-
sidency, nor had it a civil government, but it was
governed by a single officer.
Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said, that in answer to the
question of the Hon. Member for Montrose, he begged
leave to tell him that the province of Sinde was a pro.
vince kept by the East India Company in trust for the
Crown. The Hon. Gentleman would recollect on perusal
of the papers which had been published by Lord Ellen-
borough with respect to Sinde, that Sinde was annexed
in the usual manner by notification, and the
management of it had been entrusted by Government
to Sir C. -Napier, who reported his proceedings. to the
Home Department. When his report was received, it
was determined that he should continue to govern the
province of Sinde in the manner which be bad t.
piftiaed 0 t t t
ea; andat cleabigi no ails i