The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-27 00:00:00

NAVY ESTIMATES.

The following is a fuller report of the debase on the
Navy Estimates than appeared in our Saturday morning's
edition

yalr'nahlytt
r . ) With
respect
Mr. WARD, in submitting to the House the remain-
der of the navy estimates, claimed the indulgence of the
House in consequence of the short time he had held his
office, and said that had it not been for the liberal assis-
tance afforded to him by his predecessor, he should have
been unable to undertake the task. He then recapitu-
lated
the votes which had been already granted by the
House for the number of' men and wages, and proceeded to
say that on vote No. 2, victuals for seamen and marines,
very ably managaedndbythLeimeuertecuhaainitt
there was an increase of 34,5031. in consequence of the
as a great check upon de-
rise which had taken place in the price of provisions.
To vote 4 he wished to call the attention of the House ;
it was for a general register and record office for seamen.
be drawn
an efficient operatedracaheet service,and
Tsßehrreet
Brown,
odnne,peianer tdmthietenhtme
dlev
also very bene-
ficially as regarded apprentices. Ile looked upon this
sailors miglait,
,bfedrawn in a case of need ;
and with, perhaps, some "i i nal
inducement to enter
might, perhaps, prove the only rational sub-
the navy,
offi
sup-
plyc office
service,
'as trained athl
stitute for the power of.iuTrecfsssitinent. No subject would
more occupy the attention
Heels colleagues during the
eiu link
resourcebt,tveeini i
.sft.rhiem(r_r,
coming recess than t
would only remark that the in
to the seaman's fund, the Board had been pressed to re-
vive
a Bill introduced by the late Vice-President of tlo.
Board of Trade, but it had not been thought advisable so
to do. The subject, however, should receive the fullest
consideration during the recess. On the scientific branch
470/., and proceeded to the next
vote, which was for the staff of the dockyards and
fleet at home, on
crease
ee ewstaiemaeteelyhe
which there was an increase of
only about 1,0001, The next vote was for the foreign
establishments, and amounted to 3,9021, being an in-
crease of 945/. over that of last year. Vote No. 8 was
al large
in the home establishments, and it
amounted to 43,720/. The increase in the vote was caused
by the increased repairs lately rendered necessary, and
abourers onee tr'ployecl being fur the wages of artificers and
partly by the substitution of free for convict labour, in
the dockyards, which was a considerable item in the
expenditure. Upon vote No. 10 for naval stores there
was a considerable increase over last year The total of
the present vote was 1,636.426/., less 37,726/. for credits,
and the increase was 437,285/., which had been caused
by the increase of our establishments towards the close
of last year, and the large purchases of hemp, coal,
timber, and steam machinery which were consequently
necessary. Vote No. 11 was for new works, improve-
ments, and repairs, and the net increase upon this item
. over last year was 40,464/. A principal expense had
' been the substitution of iron roofs for those of wood
over the building slips, an improved plan, which he
hoped would be generally adopted on account of

the safety which was thus obtained against accidents
and loss by fire. Other items of expenditure under
this head were 240,0001. for the new steam basin,
and 200,000/. for the steam factory at Portsmouth ;
but considering the creations of steam machinery on the
French coast, it was impossible that this country could
with respect to her own credit and safety remain behind.
—(Hear, hear.) The remaining votes were as follow:
Medicines, medical stores, Sze., 21,2731.; miscellaneous
service, 71,075/ ; half pay to officers of the navy and
royal marines, 705,4481.; military pensions for naval
service, 486,3221.; for packet service, 544,5871.; civil pen-
sions—freight on account of the army and ordnance
departments, 166,626/.; freight on account of the home
department, 92,859/. ; Post-office department (packet
service),673,lBol. This last item defrayed the expenses
of the operations of the packet service department in
all quarters of the world to which our empire ex-
tended. He had gone through all these items with
as much brevity as possible, and he trusted that he
had not trespassed unwarrantably on the attention
of the House.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt the expendi-
ture was very large—seven and a half millions—and
it was only right that the most accurate scrutiny
should be exercied—(Hear, hear)—but he did not
think that it could be shown that the amount of the esti-
mate exceeded the requirements of the case.—(Hear,
hear.) For what had passed the present Board of Ad-
miralty was not responsible. They had taken the votes
and accounts as they had been bequeathed to them by
their predecessors, but they must say that they could
Fee no sufficient grounds for finding. fault with them.—
(Hear, hear.) He would not hold out delusive hopes as
to the future. He thought there was nothing more to
be desired than candour, and in candour he was bound
to say that he did not think that any reduction in this
estimate was either desirable or probable, or even possi-
ble, as long as the naval establishments of other coun-
tries continued on the same footing that they now occu-
pied. In his opinion it would not be safe, nor fit, nor
honourable for England again to run the risk which,
on at least two occasions "in the course of
the last five years, she had incurred of being
taken unawares and at disadvantage in the event of any
unforeseen emergency suddenly arising.—(Hear, hear.)
Such had been the neglect of her naval establishments,
that if on either of these occasions any sudden rupture
of our peaceful relations with other countries had un-
fortunately occurred, we should have been found totally
unprepared for warfare. Such a state of things ought
never again to be permitted.—(Hear, hear.) It was be•
cause of a not unnatural unwillingness on the part of the
authorities of the Admiralty to cause alarm amongst
other nations that such a state of things had arisen, and
that there was unhappily wanting that concentration of
resources, which in a great naval establishment was es-
tentially requisite, in order that the country might not
be vulnerable, and which had not been realised until
within a very recent period.—(Hear, hear.) Up to the
present time Woolwich was the only steam factory of
any description we possessed, those at Plymouth and
Portsmouth not being as yet complete ; and surely it
could not be contended that this was sufficient for
our exigencies, regard being had to the foreign steam
navies on the Mediterranean, and in other parts of the
world. There was one desirable reform which he was
very anxious to see accomplished—he meant an im-
provement in the mode of manning the navy, for he did
not think it was right or at all judicious to rely on the
system of impressment for meeting any very serious
emergency.—(Hear, hear.) It was a coarse and rude
expedient, not to be trusted to for the manning of such
a navy as that of England in the event of a maritime
war.—(Hear, hear.) It was unsafe and imprudent to
have recourse in such an emergency to untrained and
unskilful men, who knew nothing of the practice or
science of gunnery.—(Hear.) It would be better far to
fall back upon the judicious system of recalling those
elements of strength, which were now scattered all
over the world—the seamen engaged in our mercantile
navy.—(Hear, hear.) Besides, he considered the
habit which now prevailed a foolish and irrational one,
that of disbanding and breaking up the whole crew of
a ship when she came home after a voyage, and leav-
ing the men with perhaps no other resource for
livelihood than to go into foreign services.—(Hear,
hear.) These were matters which must engage the
serious attention of the present Board of Admiralty,
whose object it should be to improve on the example of
their predecessors. Their principal study should be to
organise, complete, and systematise the plans which
already existed, and to propose snch new ones as might
seem good. He (Mr. Ward) felt no hostility to any
country whatever, nor entertained any aggressive view
in any quarter.—(Hear, hear.) lie felt as deep an
anxiety as any other person could possibly entertain,
that the world's peace should be preserved, but he was
sure that the best security for the continuance of tran-
quillity and good order was the conviction on the part
of other nations, that as far as we were concerned, we
would not permit a breach of peace to be attempted
with impunity.—(Hear, hear.) Our strength was the
best security for the peace of the world—(Hear, hear)
—and this conviction on the part of other countries
would be best promoted by a proper organisation of the
vast resources in ships and men, which England pos-
sessed to such an extent, and which, if made available,
would still continue to render this country the most
illustrious for her maritime establishment in the world.
The question having been put on the first vote,
Sir C. NAPIEIi admitted that he had listened with
great pleasure to the speech of the Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary of the Admiralty, who had shown a degree of
information which was exceedingly creditable to him,
and which it was indeed not a little surprising to find in
one who had been for so short a time in the department
with which he was at present connected.—(Hear, hear.)
He was really at a loss to think how the lion. Gentle-
man managed to have concentrated such a mass of in-
formation within so brief a period. He had arranged it,
ton, in a systematic and perspicuous manner, and he (Sir
Charles Napier) could with truth affirm that a clearer
elucidation of the whole system of the navy he had
never heard. He concurred unreservedly in almost
every proposition that had fallen from the Hon.
Gentleman, and particularly approved of what he had
said respecting the mode of manning the navy.—
(Hear, hear.) He was also completely of the same
opinion with the Hon. Member as to its being ex-
ceedingly improper and, indeed, exceedingly
dishonourable to this country, that the naval
establishment should ever be in such a condition that
in the event of a sudden emergency we should be taken
at a disadvantage.—(Hear, hear.) Everything ought
certainly to be ready at a moment's warning, so that we
might never be taken by surprise.—(Hear, hear.) lie
trusted that the new Board of Admiralty would look
vigilantly to the discharge of their duties, and display
more zeal and ability than their predecessors in office, of
whom, by the way, he was surprised to find that only
one had thought it worth his while to be present in his
place on the present occasion.—(Hear.) The mode of
manning the navy was unquestionably a matter of the
most serious importance. In the year 1841 it was the
opinion of him (Sir C. Napier), and of several other
naval officers whose opinions might be supposed to be of
some value. that the navy was very imperfectly manned.
The Righ lion. Baronet, who then came into power, ad-
mitted that he was of the same opinion, and ac-
cordingly introduced a scale on which the service was
for the future to be supplied, but he did not follow up
his own system, and the consequence was that there
was still great cause of complaint in this department.
No ships, it had been said, were for the future to be sent
out to sea which were not manned in admirable style.
There were, however, seven or eight sail of the line
which wore now afloat. Would it be contended that
the sail of the line now afloat were manned in admirable
style? Quite the contrary. He had no hesitation in
saying they were improiy rly manned. If they were in-
spected, it would be found that they were manned not
with a first-rate crew, but with a crew two rates below
that, and that the ships were filled up with marines.—
(Hear, hear.) lie asked any naval officer in command
of a man-of•war whether he would prefer having the
number of marines on board doubled, rather than to
have her properly manned with competent seamen?—
(Hear, hear.) The system was a most improper one,
ned he protested against it accordingly. The Gallant
Officer opposite (Captain Berkeley), whom he was de-
lighted to find again a Lord of the Admiralty, had left
that department some years ago under circumstances as
honourable as those under which any public man ever
resigned office.—(Hear.) He went out because he could
not see the navy manned as he wished it to be. It was
to be hoped that his opinion on this important subject
had undergone no change, but that now that he was in
office, he would abide manfully by the views which he
had promulgated so emphatically when out of power,
and take care that no ships should go to sea that were
not manned in the first style, and in all respects pro-
perly equipped.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that if the
Gallant Officer and the other new authorities at the Ad-
miralty manifested a desire to effect these desirable
changes, the House of Commons would back the zea-
lously, and supply them in a generous spirit with the
funds requisite fur carrying these projects into execu-
tion.—(Bear.) He would not, on the present occasion,
trespass on the attention of the House by discussing the
votes one by one, having on Tuesday evening addressed
them on the subject at considerable length ; but there
was one vote he could not forbear alluding to. It was
that which was designed to cover the expenses
of the dockyards and naval stores. The money
heee voted appeared to him to be quite too pro-
fuse. If anything like order or economy had pre-
vailed he certainly did think that they might have dimi-
nished a million and a half of money in the expenses of
the duck-yards and stores.—(Hear, hear.) He had here
again to complain, as he had complained a thousand
times before, of the gross defects of our present system
of naval architecture. The ships which were constructed
under that system—he would not say of them that they
were absolute failures—but he certainly thought, and
every naval officer must say the same, that they were
bad men-of-war. They looked very charmingly in
harbour, but to judge of them properly you should see
them in a gale of wind, when it would be found that
they would roll 45 degrees leeward, and 43 degrees
windward. He trusted that the new Board of Admiralty
would perceive the evils of the present system, and ac-
knowledge the necessity of adopting a new plan. There
was another point be was anxious to allude to. He meant
the enormous expense which had been incurred since 1800
in cutting down ships of war. They had recently taken
four 72 gun ships and four frigates—good men-of-war, or
at least fair men of-war—and these they had cut down
to make block-ships of.—(Hear.) The practice was an

inexcusable one. Why should men-of-war be thus sacri-
ficed? If block ships were required, what was easier
than to take old hulks, mount guns on them, and to tow
them by steam boats to the positions it was desirable
they should occupy? The cost of repairing these block-
ships had been set down at 18,0001., but he would take
upon: him to say that the cost of these ships would not
be less than twenty thousand pounds a piece.— (Hear,
hear.) Independent of that, there were engines put
into them at an enormous expense, and he would
answer for this, that those four sail of the line and four
frigates, when transmegrified into block-ships, would cost
no less than half a million of money. Let them but
wait until they had obtained a bill of expenses, and they
would find that they would cost little less than the sum
he had mentioned. And what was the use of them?
Why, they would be absolutely useless. They would be
put in dock with the machinery on board, and they
would be totally useless altogether Perhaps he would
be told, Oh, no, those vessels are intended to go to sea ;
we will send them into the Downs." He (Sir C. Napier)
asked, could they not send six vessels into the
Downs with the same facility ? Now, suppose those
block-ships were in the Downs and a westerly wind set
in, and the enemy instead of going to the Downs pro-
ceeded to Plymouth, those block-ships might be able
to sail not more than five or six miles an hour, while the
enemy's vessels could sail ten or twelve miles in the
same time, and what then, he (Sir Charles Napier)
asked, what theniwould become of the block-ships ?
(Hear, hear.) Now, with respect to their steam-boats,
he complained of the mode in which they were built.
He went on board of one the other day in Woolwich, and
she was exactly in the same position as the first steam-
boats they had built, and the engines and other parts
were exposed to shot. He, therefore, conceived that
they should change the present system. It was per-
fectly easy to do so, and he was sure that they would
find that it would do a great deal of good. He
had been allowed to build a steam man-of-war, and
he had arranged that it should carry provisions for
two hundred men, but when ho went to look at the
establishment of the Sidon, a paper from the Admiralty
was shown to him, and that paper stated that she was to
carry provisions for 240 men. But if they were to fit
her out with a view to carry the order of the Admiralty
into execution, she would, like other steam-boats, be too
deep in the water to be useful.—(Hear, hear.) He would
suggest that the present Board of Admiralty should
form some sort of commission, to investigate and report
what was the proper system of building steam-boats, and
thus save the country from the enormous losses to which
it was subject during every year for the last twenty years.
The Secretary of the Admiralty had said that steam-
boats were in their infancy. Yes, they were so in the
navy ; but it was not so in the merchant service. They
were in their infancy for the last twenty years in the
navy, and how long would it be before they came to
maturity ? If they went to Scotland, Liverpool, and
Ireland, they would find steam-boats belonging to the
merchant service that could stand every weather--(Hear.)
Sir G. COCKBURN felt, after the statement which
had been made by the Gallant Officer on his left (Sir
Charles Napier) that it was quite right he should say a
word on the subject. In the first place, it was said that
after they (the late Board of Admiralty) came into
office, they agreed in thinking that ships-of-war should
go to sea fully manned ;but at the same time, with re-
spect to the ships that were kept in the Channel, he
explained at the time—two or three years ago—he felt
that they could exercise those ships without being fully
manned. They were enabled, with the sum they got
from Parliament, to send more vessels where they were
wanted—for instance, to Brazil and China—than if they
had those vessels of the line fully manned at home. As
to sending a double number of marines on board, it was
exceedingly useful if they were looking out for the
chance of a war, for a portion of them were lately en-
listed, who were fit to act as soldiers, but it was ne-
cessary to have some experience at sea.—(Hear, hear.)
He was old enough to remember the last war, when
they were obliged to put soldiers on board, and they all
got dead sick.—(Hear, hear.) In the event of a war
they had now a vote for 40,000 men; but if they had the
vessels fully manned, they should have 43,000 or 44,000
men. They should, he repeated, send the marines to sea,
to get sea legs, and give practice to the officers and men.
As to the next charge, with respect to the cutting down
of the block-ships, the House would remember that it
was not a proposal of the Admiralty at all. There was
an order from the Government to appoint a commission
to visit all their ports, and see what was necessary to be
done for their protection, in consequence of the French
having got a steam navy. That commission went round
to the different ports, and the recommendation of that
commission was adopted by the Government, requiring
that a certain number of line-of-battle ships and
of frigates, should be prepared to aid the batteries
in the different positions in which they might be
attacked, and it was thought wise that a screw propeller
should be put to each of them to enable them to shift
their position from side to side, where the attack of the
enemy made it necessary. One of those vessels was to
be completed with the screw, and the order was that
others were not to be completed until that one was tried.
His Hon. and Gallant Friend had stated that they had
not a steamer that was a perfect man-of-war. They had
often heard that statement before, and it was contra-
dicted over again. He might mention an officer well-
known to the country, Sir Edmond Lyons, now Minister
of Greece, and in his opinion the Terrible and Devasta-
tion were most efficient vessels. The Gomer (French
vessel) was not to be compared to the Devastation; and it
was quite right in his (Sir G. Cockburn's) opinion, as
they had ships of the size in France, that in England
they should have some ships of the same descrip-
tion, and therefore it was that those ships were built.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER said that what he said was
that not one of our steam-vessels was fitted for a men-of-
war, as their boilers and their works were so high that
a shot would permanently injure them. What he de-
sired was that the Government would order a survey of
the steam-boats, and report what vessels were fit for war.
Captain BERKELEY considered that there had been
too much amateur building of vessels for service. The
difficuly was to have their men-of-war properly manned;
and he, in his official capacity, would endeavour to
remedy that defect.
Captain PECHELL was not one of those who were
accustomed to assert that they had not a good
and serviceable navy.—(Hear, hear.) He hoped
that the promise given would be persevered in.
It gave him great satisfaction to have heard what had
failed from the Hon. Member, the Secretary of the Ad-
miralty, with regard to the manning of our ships; and
he hoped that when he found himself under such restric-
tions as not to be able to do justice to the British sea-
men, he would at once give up his post of authority.
The Hon. Secretary had very clearly explained the
amount of votes, but he had not shown so distinctly how
he intended to apply them. They had not been told
how the ships were to be employed, nor were
they told how or what shi?s were to be employed
in the suppression of the slave trade. lie knew that
great power had been taken away from our cruisers, but
he thought that some statement should be made of what
had been the successes of our cruizers in conjunction
with those of France. He would also wish to know
what was to be the policy of the present Board with re-
gard to the employment of the officers, because, during
the late cruise, it had been found necessary to remove
from the dock-yard, a superintendent whose express in-
structions were never to sleep out of the dock-yard.
When the admirals complained of the fact, they found it
necessary to send to the Mediterranean station to rob it of
its admiral. Did they intend to employ admirals and vice-
admirals to command their fleets, or did they or did
they not think them competent to such command? lie
wished also to know what were their intentions with
regard to the present regulations with regard to the car-
riage of specie, and was it to be allowed to continue upon
its present footing? He would proceed to call the atten-
tion •f the House to the complaints of the class of officers
called paymasters and pursers. The promises of extra
pay or half-pay to those officers held out had not been
realised. They were divided into three classes of 35.,
45., and ss. per day. The pursers had willingly sur-
reniered parts of their sea emoluments for the benefit
of their brother officers on half- pay, and it was consi-
dered that, in consequence of that surrender they were
entitled to an additional shilling per day. They surren-
dered 16,000/. annually, and the Government, so contrived
matters, that over 4,0001. per annum remained as balance
in their hands. Their arrangements were also so con-
trived that many of the oldest officers were kept down
upon the lowest list of half-pay. He thought that the
attention of the House and Government should be called
to this serious grievance, for upwards of 100 officers,
of 30 and 40 years' service, had been taken from the
high class of pay, and removed entirely to the lower
grade, and he had no doubt that such injustice was keenly
felt by them.
Admiral DUNDAS said what the Hon. Member had
stated should have his best consideration.
Sir G. COCKBURN explained the circumstances
under which the late Admiralty Board had acted in rela-
tion to the officers whose case had been stated by the
Gallant Member, and informed the House that, under
the circumstances, they could not have acted otherwise
in the matter than they had done.
After a few words from Captain Harris, Mr. Henley,
and Lord Worsley,
Captain PECHELL asked whether the Admiralty
intended to pursue the previous policy of keeping
cruizers on the coast of Africa, and whether they meant
tea keep up their present compliment of ships.
Mr. IVARD, in reply, was inaudible in the gallery.
The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were then agreed to.
199,714/. for salaries of the officers of the Board of
the Admiralty.
9,5017. for salaries of officers in the General Registry
office. _ _ .

140,115/. for salatie3 °foil-leers in scientific departments
in the navy.
The following votes were then agreed to, without dis
eussion:-23,9021. to defray the expenses of naval esta-
blishments abroad; 752,4271. for the payment of wages, of
artificers, labourers, &c., employed in the naval establish-
ments at home ; 43,7201. for the payment of the wages
of the artificers, labourers, &c., employed in the naval
establishments abroad.

After a few words from Captain PECHELL, the vote
of 436,4261., for the expense of the naval stores, &c., was
agreed to.
126,8101. for the new works in the naval establish-
ments at home was then agreed to, after a few words
from Captain HARRIS and Captain ?EC/MX, Who said

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.
(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)
FRIDAY, JULY 24.
Messengers from the Lords brought up the following Bills,
to which their Lordships had agreed :
London and Blackwall Railway (Widening) Bill—Chorley
Waterworks Bill—Waterford Harbour (No. 2) Bill—Coal-
whipp,rs (Port of London) Bill, without amendment—
Lond,,n and Birmingham (Coventry to Nuneaton) Railway
Bill—Caledonian Railway (Glasgow Termini and Branches)
Bill—Wilts, Somerset, and Weymouth Railway Bill—
Shrewsbury, Wolverhampton, and South Staffordshire Junc-
tion Railway (No. 1) Bill—Manchester and Leeds Railway
Extensions Bill—Trent Valley Midlands and Grand Junction
Railway Bill—Strathtay and BreadaWane Railway Bill—
Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Dudley Railway Bill—
Shrewsbary and Birmingham Railway Bill—Liverpool and
Biny Railway Bill—Midland Railways (Leicester and Swan-
nington Railway Alteration and Branches) Bill—Blackburn,
Dare en, and Bolton Railway Bill—London and Birmingham
Railway (Weedon and Northampton Branch) Bill, with
amendments—Forth and Clyde Navigation and Bowling Bay
Improvement Bill—North Wales Railway Bill, with an
amendment.