The Sun.
London, England, 1848-04-10 00:00:00

BILL.

Mr. G. THOMPSON gave notice that upon the sceond
reading of this Bill, he would move that it be read a
second time the t day six months.
ME.ASURES FOR IRELAND.
Mr. F. PREI,ICEI gave notice that he would briny
before the no tice of the Ilcuse the necessity o f
repealing the • present penal poor-laws, and adoptin*
some measure to prevent the destruction of the pet)=
perty of Ireland, in order to provide for the desti-,

tution of its Tropic; the necessity of adopting means
for the employment of the people, to
,assist coloni-
zltion to a limited extent; that the medical chart-.
ties of the country might be placed upon
a different basis, and an adjustment of the claims upon
the counties for the re-payment of the moneys advanced
to Ireland during the last two years; and also the exr
pediency of making a State provision for the Catholi,l
clergy of Ireland.
MANUFACTURE OF PIKES (IRELAND).
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL gave notice that he would
renew his question, upon Thursday next, upon the pike
affairs in Dublin.—(Laughter.)
HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL.

In reply to Mr. URQUHART,
Lord MORPETH stated that he feared he would be
unable to bring in this Bill on Friday, in consequence
of the arisrpzements that had been made for that day.
GOVERNMENT COERCION BILL.
Mr. HUME presented a petition against this Bill.
MARINE MUTINY BILL.
This Bill was read a third time.
MUTINY BILL.
This Bill was also read a third time.

CROWN AND GOVERNMENT SECURITY BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this
Bill being real,
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said he did not rise for the
purpose of entering at length into a discussion on the
details of the Bill, because he cared very little about
them, and because be saw in it a desire to
meet the claims of Ireland rather by coercion
than by concession. (Cries of "No, no.") It was
on account of that, and not of the technical for-
mation of the Bill, that he was there in his place
to oppose it. He could assure the House, in all
solemnity, that this attempt which they were making
to coerce the people would prove utterly futile
—it was an attempt to indict a whole nation, but it
would prove, as he had said, ineffectual.—(Cries
of " No, no.") He had a duty to perform,
and he should perform it. In 1843, before
he joined the Repeal Association, he felt it his duty to
make one last appeal to the House for what was then
termed justice to Irelaud—namely, a series of measures
which were calculated to give satisfaction to the
Irish people consistently, at the same time, with the
maintenance of the union between the two countries.
The House refused that appeal. They had now
an opportunity of meeting that demand by
granting a separate Legislature—Queen, Lords, and
Commons for:lreland. I am here to tell you, said thellen.
Gentleman with marked emphasis, that if you do not
concede the rights for which the people of Ireland ask,
you will have, in the course of the present year, a
republic established in Ireland.—(Great surprise and
cries of " Oh, oh," and "Order.") Unlike all the Govern.
tnents of Europe, the liberal Government of England
meet the just demands of a country intimately connected
with this—by coercion and prosecution—(Cheers)
—and this, too, at a moment when the Foreign Minister
was countenancing the efforts of every other people
to obtain their freedom. He asked for no other example
than that of seicilly, which presented a parallel to Ireland.
And what had the Noble Lord said, but that Sicilly was
justified in what she had done? Charges had been
brought against him, and those with whom he acted in
his absence; he was there to answer them on their behalf
and on his own—on behalf of his companions in the
glorious struggle now going on.—(Roars of laughter.)
He was proud to say that their motives were disinter-
ested.—(Cheers.) Now, with respect to himself, he had
been called traitor.—(lmmense and continued cheering.)
He was not disloyal to the Queen, but he was disloyal
to that House; and if that was treason he was guilty of
the offence. As long as he lived it should
be his study to overthrow the dominion of
this House in Ireland. He unhesitatingly avowed that
to be his intention. (The Attorney-General here turned
towards Sir G. Grey and Lord John Russell, and
entered into animated conversation with them connected
apparently with the words of the Hon. Gentleman.)
With respect to himself he might undertake to say
that no man in Ireland bore a higher public cha-
racter than he did.—(Cheers and laughter.) He
did not deny that there were many entitled to
far greater respect, but he believed he was
justified in making the statement he had ; but since his
election for Limerick he had never any but sincere
votes. He challenged any man to state the con-
trary ; and now that be was to be arraigned as a
criminal, he declared to that House that he would
glory to receive the most ignominious death that could
be inflicted upon him rather than see his country sub-
jected to the treatment he had seen during the last thirty
years of his ilfe. He had not gone to France
to seek aid; but if he had wished, he believed he should
have come back with a tolerably large muster of troops.
—(Laughter.) He only wiahed they had been in
France when he was there.—(Laughter.) No, the
freedom of Ireland must be won by the courage of her
own sons —by Irish courage. It was not his intention to
place his country under the protection of foreign bayonets.
He went to France, at the revest of a large body of his
countrymen, as their delegate, to congratulate the Pro-
visional Government upon the resent overthrow of a
Throne which had long forfeited all claim to the respect
of the people. Ile went there for the purpose of offer-
ing the Provisional Government the congratulations
of the people of Ireland for having set an example
to Europe which the world had already seen
with what effect.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He
had no hesitation in declaring that a great amount of
sympathy for the people of Ireland prevailed in France,
and it should be the business of those with whom be was
about t act to encourage that sympathy to the utmost
degree, but that sympathy was not confined
to France, but it extended itself to every nation
and to every enlightened statesman and citizen in
Europe. Every enlightened man in the civilised world
looked upon Irslaed us England looked upon Poland.
Every enlightened man in Europe looked upon the con-
dition of England, in reference to Ireland, as analogous
to that of Russia in reference to Poland.—(llear, hear.)
Could the House wonder, then, that Ireland
excited so much sympathy in the minds of free and
enlightened iudividuals.—(Rear, hear.) He was happy
to thiek that a very large amount of aympathy was
evinced towards Ireland by the people of this country,
and he was not ashamed to declare. although he did not
agree with many of the views of the Honourable
Member for Nottingham, that it gave him great
satisfaction that the majority of the Chartist
body felt for the sufferings and were most anxious to
aid the cause of the people of Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) The Chartists, like Ireland, felt that they
had been unjustly dealt with by the Parliament of
this country, and he was not at all surprised of their
availing themselves of a time when Government was
involved with Ireland to press their complaints upon
that House.—(Hear, hear.) But whether their sym-
pati:y resulted from policy, or from their generous
feelings, he freely accepted it on the part of Ireland.—
(Hear, hear.) Now he owned—whether the senti-
ment be considered legal or not he did not know—that
he had been instrumental in asking his country to
arm.—(Sensation, and cries of " Order, order.") He
conceived that under present circumstances of all coun-
tries of Europe, it was the duty of every man to obtain
possession of arms.—(Oh, oho There was scarcely a
nation in Europe which did not make it part of its duty
to instruct its citizens in the practice of arms, and he con•
ceived it to be the peculiar duty of the people of Ireland
to obtain arms, when itwas openly announced by the
Government that they intended to crush them, not by
arguments, but with the aid of brute force.—(Laughter)
Let him remind the Hon. Gentleman of what
took place in 1782. It was no crime then for
them thus to arm for the protection of their own
liberty, and :why, ;let him ask, should
they not be psrmitted to do so now ? Was ;it moreover
nut necessary that they should be in possession of arms
to enable them to preserve order.—(Laughter.) The
intentions, however, of the people of Ireland were mis-
understood, and in order to convince the House of this
he would just read the last resolution come to by
those with whom he acted.—(Hear, hear.) The
resolution was to tho effect that the Narionrl Repeal
Association of Ireland denounced as gross calumny the
vituperation which had been thrown upon them by the
Noble Lord at the Head of the Government as the
object of the associati in was only to procure a repara-
tion from the English Parliament and they
thereby declared that they were determined to
obtain their national independence if possible.
without civil war.—(Laughter.) A national council of
300 representatives was about to assemble in Dublin for
the purpose of carrying out the spirit of these resolu-
tions, and he would recommend the Noble Lord to put
himself in communication with that body as soon as possi-
ble. The Government relied upon what ? Why upon the
assistance of spies.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
has been asked by the Honourable Member for Limerick
a question upon the subject of manufacturing spikes.
—(Heer.) Were the Government, he would ask, serious
in thinking that they could govern Ireland by a system
detective police.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble 'lord relied
apon packed juries in Ireland, because i he hadNa fbair
ir
one he could not get a verdict.—( $ .) The o
Lord little knew the spirit that was abroad in Ireland if
he thought ho could put down the exertions of the Irish
people tor their rights by sending men to prison for en-
deavouring to serve their country.—(Hear, hear ) Did
he not know that by the adoption of such a course he
would increase the number of converts to the cause of
the people, and against the Government. It was true
that if some means ur other 280,000 persons had been
induced to place a sort of qualified reliance on the Go-
vernment, but such was the state of things in Ireland at
the present moment, that the Government would be in a
great difficulty to save themselves even if their
bayonets.—(Hear, hear,
and laughter.) He believed
that the principal Nobles in Ireland who supported the
Government of the Noble Lord would not get a
single relation or friend of theirs to support
their views. If these matters were to be
settled by resort to the most extreme measures
which he trusted would never be the case. He felt no
no doubt that the Irish gentry, to a man, would protect
themselves and their property, and care little what
became of the Government.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.")
Could it be Supposed that the Irish people
could have much affection for a Government
that was about to deprive them of their inheritance
and their means of subsistence.—(Bear, hear.) The
Government relied upon the orangemen and the police
force of Leland. He believed that in doing so they
would find thernselbes in the wrong, for it was his firm be-
lief that the greater portion of the orangemen in Ireland
were in favour oF the Irish confederation.—Ccries
of "Oh,
oh.") The Government next relied upon the
rrmy—the army at the present moment in Ireland was
is)
ut an insignificant part of the whole popula-
tion of that cuuntay, and under these circumstances
was it to be supposed,
if the came to a struggle, that
y
30,000 men would or could offer much opposition to the
attempt of the Irish people for freedom. It was utterly
impossible for the cavalry to act in Ireland, and there
could bo no just reliance placed on the military there.
lie believed they
could not rely upon the army in Ire.

Etel.—(oh, oh !) If there were to be a struggle to-
morrow, he believed that the army would refuse to act
against the people in Ireland —(Loud cries of " On,
oh !") The ofjeet, of my ei.ge eement, said the
Honourable Member, has been this :—I need not
say that I treat with the most uttor di,,dain the attempts
of the Government to gut me down by their prevention.
—(Laughter.) My object has been this, to show that
if ever it is possible for these two great countries to come
into collision the result would be extremely uncertain
and could sot be otherwise than disastrous. IF England
were to fail she would henceforth stand alone; and it
may not be unadvisable to consider what would be the
condition of England with an independent Republic
upon one side for independent Republic upon
upon the other side of her. (" Hear," and laugh-
ter.) If England were to be victorious, they would make
a desolation, they would desolate the country which you
have for a long period made discontented, and you are
disgraced in the eyes of all mankind. Now, under
those circumstances, I do implore the House, be-
fore it is too late—before those ominous
woord " too late," which have su:h porten-
tious meaning in other countries—has struck the
knell of English power in Ireland, I do beg of the Crown
to reflect and concede to the people of Ireland their
national rights, those rights which they are resolved to
possess, and which by every title human and divine they
are entitled to claim. I have spoke hitherto without
reserve, and as I did so at the beginning I shalt not
fail to do so at the end.— (Laughter.) When the Noble
L,rfl tel:, me that I am a traitor to the Crown, I not
only repel the charge but retort it.—(Laughter.) I say
that if in the present position of Europe he attempts iu
regard to his own fellow-countrymen of this country,
to crush all the efforts upon the part of the democracy
of this country, to obtain those rigl is which the demo-
cracies of other countries are obtaining—it with respect
to my country he refuses their demands for self-
government —if he plays towards this country
the part of Guiz,tt or Metternich in their
respective countries, then I tell him teat it is not
me and mine, but he and his colleagues, who are traitors
to the country. The Hon. Member resumed his seat
amid marks of dissatisfaction from all parts of the House,
Sir G. GREY, who upon rising, was loudly cheered,
said, Sir, after the long absence of the Hon. Gentleman
from his place—(Cheers)—and now rising in his place
upon the moment that the second reading of the Bill is
now before the House, I certainly entertained some
hope, albeit a faint one, that ho had risen to disavow
with indignation—(Cheers)—that indignation which all
loyal subjects of this realm must feel at the imputations
which have b..en upon his loyulty—(Cheers)—not only
in that House, but by every newspaper circulated
throughout this realm for some weeks past, and that he
would, with that fervid eloquence which characterises
his harangues elsewhere, if nut in this House.—
(Cheers and laugh terl—to disavow those sentiments and
profess that, by virtue, i; of no better feelings, of that
oath of allegiance—(Tremendous cheering)— which the
Hon. Member has repeatedly taken—(Renewed cheer-
ing)—to the Sovereign of these realms, that
he cast off the imputations which have been so
frequently cast upon his name.—(Loud cheers.) What,
then, was my astonishment, nay, what were my feel-
ings of pain and regret—feelings shared, I will
venture to say, by every Honourable Member in
this House—(Tremendous cheering)—when, with
the miserable pretence of still professing loyalty
a faint shadow of loyalty to his Sovereign, not without
that boldness and daring—(Loud cheers)—which has
characterized his speeches elsewhere, repeating the sen-
timents which he has elsewhere uttered, and charging
my Noble Friend in defending the constitution of the
country with charges similar to those made against
himself. viz., that of treason.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
The Hon. Member said that in his absence he had been
called a traitor, perhaps the Hon. Member will allow
me to say, that I am not in the least degree responsible
for the absence of the lion. Member.—(Cheers.) The
cause of that absence no doubt the Honourable
Member is the best able to explain.—(Laughter.)
(LEFT SPEAKING.)

stftt Wbition
SUN OFFICE, Half past Eight o'clock.

CROWN AND GOVERNMENT SECURITY BILL.
Sir G. GREY (in continuation from our Fourth Et

tion), said—
I did not, however, call the Hon. Member a traitor; this
however—l did do, I read to the House a portion of the
report of the Irish Confederation, at which an asso-
ciate of the lion. Member, Mr. Duffy said in his
speech that he had received a message from that
Honourable Member who was then in Paris,
and rejecting that discouraging repulse which the Hon.
Gentleman had received from M. Lanmrtine—(Loud
cheers)—and which I must say reflected the greatest
credit upon him—in which he refused to encourage those
designs, tie they seditious, traitorous, or loyal as the
Hon. M_mber pretends to assure the House—and stated
that he should in so doing be violating the law ofnations
and giving a good cause of war to Etigland.—(Cheers.)
Does the lion. Gentleman deny the statement which
was made by Mr. Duffy at the Irish Confederation, and
which had the effect of setting aside altogether the
answer of M. Lamartine to the Irish deputation?—
(Hear, hear) That statement was to the effect that
the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. O'Brien) was informed by a
club in Paris that the French people alt deeply moved
at the grievances of the Irish, and were able, should
they require assistance, to send 50,000 of their bravest
citizens to aid them in obtaining their rights.—(llear.)
Mr. O'BRIEN was understood to request the Right
Hon. Baronet to read the next paragraph.
Str G. GREY.—The next passage of the reply to
which he referred stated that Mr. O'Brien offered his
sincere thanks on the part of Ireland for that offer.—
(Lou ► cries of " Hear, hear," ar d cheers.) Is the Hon.
Gentleman now satisfied?—(Laughter and cheers.)
The next passage was to the effect that Ireland
would conquer by the energy of her own chil-
dren. That meant that, although they could them-
selves institute a successful insurrection, still, if the
worst should happen of the struggle, France had pro-
mised, as Mr. Duffy had said, in contradiction of M.
Lamartine's reply, the assistance of 50,000 Frenchmen.
—(Cheers.) I hoped the lion. Gentleman would have
disavowed the intention of seducing the soldiers and
police from their duty! to the constitution with the view
of their joining the mob.—(Hear, hear.) I said I did
not call the Hon. Gentleman a traitor.—(Hear, hear.)
I read tha statement of Mr. Duffy, and bec use it con-
tained the sentiment to which I have alluded, he said I
called him a traitor.—(Cheers.) The House drew the
inference from it, and I find that inference given in the
unmistakable manner in which the words of the
Honourable Gentleman were rt ceived when he
said he had been called a traitor.—(Great cheering.)
The Honourable Gentleman said that the effect of this
measure would be to alieuiate the Orangemen from sup-
porting the Government, but I will say that a very large
portion of the population of Ireland, including all
creeds and persuasions, is determined to support the
present constitution of the United Kingdom, and I am
moreover sure that they will indignantly deny the right
of the Honourable Gentleman to expound their
feelings to this House.—(Loud cheers.) He also
said that the body, of which he constituted a
part in Ireland, was supported to a man by the Chartists
of this country. Now, I disbelieve entirely that asser-
tion, for it has been lately stated in this House by a
leader of the Chartists that they are firmly attached to
the monarchy of this country.—(Hear, hear, and
cheers.) I believe the Hon. Gentleman will find him-
eulf miserably deceived if he thinks that he will
obtain any assistance from foreign ;conntries.
—(Loud cheers.) Ireland, England, and Scotland
would rise in indignation against the dictation of the
Hon. Gentlemen, atid against the exposition which he
pretends to give of the feelings of his Own country.—
(Cheers.) Far be it from me to speak of the tone of
the Hon. Gentleman, and of the accusation which he has
made against the Government with respect to their in.
tcntions to Ireland, for it is their great desire to
make it rich, happy, and prosperous, and to give
it those constitutional rights which every person in
the kingdom eujoys.—(Cheers.) We want the real
union of all men, and the reasons for this Bill will, to a
certain extent, be found in the dangerous and mischievous
language and threats which have been resorted to ; and
in the Bill rests not only the security of the Crown
and the Government, but the true interests of the
great b ely of the people.—(Great cheering.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said, as he had been alluded to,
he rose simply to state that he had used the sentiments
enunciated by the Hon. Member both within and without
that House. He said that the voice of the people was
greater than that of the Crown ; but, having taken the
oath of allegiance, he was prepared to defend the
Crown, not only against its enemies, but against
the machinations of her Majesty's Ministers, if neces-
sary. The Right Honourable Baronet (Sir G. Grey)
had alluded to the allegiance of Orangemen, and to thet
loyalty of the troops and police, and said they were
sufficient for the defence of the country, meaning
thereby to imply that the words used by him—
" ridiculous and foolish "—were levelled a:suit's.
those who favoured the repeal of the Union
He would ask the descendant of Lord William Russell
it' it became him to ferret out old Acts of Par-
liament, in order to fetter the sentiments of the people?
To show that his sentiments had been entertained by
others, he might cite the speeches of the lion. Baronet
the Member for Harwich (Sir J. C. Hobhouse), and ask
if anything could go further than the sentiments that
lion. Baronet had enunciated? But they were success-
ful—they led to the passing of the Reform Bill, though
that measure had proved destructive to tens of thousands
of the people of Ireland. They had been trying to do
something for forty-eight years, but they had
failed. They bad tried too long. He had thought
on the speech of the Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Oldham (Mr. W. J. Fox), that the Government
would have paust d before they proceeded further with
the Bill. Every man who wrote advisedly would be
liable to transportation. Why, if this were an ex poste facto
matter, it would not require very much to carry the
Right Hon. Baronet to the other side of the Atlantic. The
United States had sent over 1,000,000 of dollars to
aid the Irish in their struggles. Now, he had
refused to be one a deputation to Fiance, because he
thought with Shakes ere that "if England cannot
keep the dog from her own door, that she hod better be
worried." If a foreign army came to invade this
country, he would risk his life in resisting it ; let them
rely upon the mind and will of the people of England
and Ireland. Why, but for the Right Honourable
Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) hundreds of the usands
would have died of famine in Ireland. He had at-
tended the demonstration to-day, and, thank God ! it
had passed off peaceably.--(Laughter.) Honourable
Gentlemen laughed. Ile repeated that he rejoiced
it bad passed off peaceably.—t Cries of " Hear, hear.")
If the night Hon. Baronet wished to destroy the

expression of the free opinion of the people he would
induce them, as did a portion ot former Convention,
to go about the, country establishing club;. Many
of the former Convention were mere rabble, ssho only
joined it to get paid ; and when they went into the
country promoting the formation of clube, he ft,llo+Ned
them in the dead of winter at his own expense, attacked
Them wherever they went, at d succeeded in driving
them out of Scotland. He hated secresy, and
had never written a private political letter in his
life.—(Hear, hear.) And now they intended to
pass a Bill to enable them to prosecute the Hon. Gentle.
man the Member fcr Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien), but
they might depend, if they did so, that their triumph
would be weakness they would weaken the law,
and bring the Government into contempt. Until
they had a really constitutional opposition in the
House, they might depend upon it they would con-
tinue to experience similar daring from the Government
benches. The Bill was an infraction upon the right of
the subject. Many voted, by courtesy, for the introduc-
tion ot the Bill who did not intend to sup-
port it in its future stages.—(Hear.) Now, he was
made of " sterner stuff," and therefore he begged to
move that the Bill be read a second time this day six
months.

Mr. G. TIIOMPSON seconded the motion. He
wished to express his delight that the proceedings of the
ay had tone off with order and good teeling.—(Hear.)
He wai glad to find that they sat in peace and quietness.
Do not let the House Imagine that this peace resulted
from tear on the part of the people. No, it was trout
their conviction that great political changes could only
he effected in this country by the force of argument.
He had mingled amongst working men for the last 20
years, and while he had never shrunk from censuring
when he thought they were in the wrong, he cordially
sympathised with them whets he believed they were in
the right.—(hear, hear.) He came now to the Bill
before the House. In the first place, be objected to the
haste with which this Bill had been introduced. A more

important Bill than this had not been introduced
into that House during the last century, and
he would warn the House not to make that felony
w hieh universal humanity did not characterise as such.
—(Hear, hear.) But let them pass the Bill, with its
" gagging clause," and he would answer for it they
would not find their prisons large enough to hold nor
ships sufficiently numerous to transport the felons
whom it would make.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") So
tar as the other parts of the Bill were concerned, he did
not object to th,m; but in Heaven's name don't attempt
to make it felony for a man to speak his thoughts openly
and without disguise. Pass it, however, and what
would be the result? Why they would make one hun-
dred and one thousand of felons, who would, when
they were dragged through the world, be greeted with the
cries that met the ears of Lord William Russell while
being conveyed to the scaffold, namely, " There goes
Liberty and Virtue side by side."—(Hear, hear.) But
let Government persevere with this Bill as it stood, he
would oppose in every stage.
Sir B. HALL rose, and was
(LEFT STEALING.)

CHA RTIST
DEMONSTRATION.

(THIS DAY.)

SUN OFFICE, Eight o'Clock.
It is satisfactory to state, up to the time of our going
to press with this Edition, that no disturbance of the
public peace has taken place. The demonstration has
passed off as peaceably as we stated we believed it
would, in writing our reports for the earlier
editions of The Sun. Up to this hour it would
seem that the apprehensions of an outbreak have not yet
lett the minds of the public, as the shops which were
closed in the morning remain so now, with very few ex-
ceptions. It may be said with truth that business has been
almost suspended in the leading thoroughfares of the
metropolis during the whole of the day. The special
constables remain, with very few exceptions, at their posts,
and many will not be relieved of their duties until nine
o'clock, or even later, should any outbreak be intended.
The conduct of the demonstration in not going in pro
cession is spoken harshly of by many unthinking per-
sons, who no doubt would have been gratified had it
been our painful duty to have announced loss of life as the
result of what, considering the determination of the
Government, would have been foolhardiness in the
extreme. The proceedings in the Convention to-
morr..w, afar the " split" of to-day, will be more than
usually interesting.