The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-12 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 11.
ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.

(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Mr. FINCH was not opposed to the whole of the principles
of this Bill, because he thought that some of its provisions
might with very great safety be adopted ; as for instance that
which went to repeal the law by which schoolmasters were
regulated, and which he thought might be very judiciously
abolished. But there were other points to which he en-
tertained strong and insuperable objections. He was
aware that there were parties belonging to the religi-
ous community of the Roman Catholic Church who held
in all its force the doctrine of the political supremacy of
the Pope.—(Cries of " Where, where ?") The authority
to which he would refer was the late Charles Butler, the
barrister, who it was well known was himself a Catholic,
and who hal stated that this doctrine was held in the Vati-
can and its precincts.—(A laugh.) He might add that the
same principle was supported by the celebrated Bellarmine.
And further, he might cite the - oath.as administered under
the provisions of the 31st. Geo. 111.
Mr. O'CONNELL—That is not the oath now administered
to Members of the House.
Mr. FINCH had just had the book put into his hands, and
he was therefore not responsible for the error, but he still
must contend that there were many individuals who held the
doctrine of Papal supremacy. There might be no imme-
diate danger, but he could see in future years, and that at no
distant period, ample cause for apprehension if this Bill were
carried. There might be cases of conscience in which the
imposition of an oath would be felt as a hard-
ship, but he believed they were very few, and
there was, on the other hand, an evil to be guarded
against. Many young persons were led, at an age when they
were incapable of judging of their future course, to take re-
ligious vows from which, at some after pet iod, they would be
very glad to be released, and he conceived that a very advan-
tageous change might be made in the regulation of religious
communities. Each of these establishments might be visited
by a Commissioner, appointed by Government, who might
see each of these young persons separately, and take measures
to effect their liberation whenever- it was desired. (A laugh.)
With regard to the observation of the Noble Lord respecting
the Jesuits, he did not conceive that any security could be
taken against them, or at least any that wasworthy of the name.
This was in 1899.—(Hear, hear.) He understood that ex-
pression. It was that the Right Hon. Baronet had left he-
hind him all his former opinione, and that Hansard should
be laid aside. Still he (Mr. Fiuch) would say this was a
constitutional principle. Spain, though a Catholic country,
had seen it necessary to suppress many of its religious orders,
as inconsistent with the Government of the country, and
other nations had done the same. There was, therefore, no-
thing inconsistent in this country exercising some control
over such orders. At present sisters of Mercy and other
religious bodies were springing up, distributing tracts, and
using every exertion to make proselytes, and they were not
interfered with ; yet it might come that in a few years it
would be necessary for a Protestant Government
to interfere with the proceedings of monastic
orders. If the Roman Catholics, however, con-
sidered the subject well, he was sure they would not
venture on processions, in which the host, they so much vene-
rated, might be liable to insult. There was one other point
to which he would refer. The clause which gave the power
for Roman Catholic prelates to assume the legal title of
bishop and archbishop could . not but be offensive to the
digaitaries of the Protestant Church. Nothing could be
more offensive than for a Roman Catholic bishop 'to take
the title of Archbishop of Canterbury. He thought that
the Catholic clergy would, if this Bill passed, assume
the titles of the Protestant clergy. He deprecated the spirit
which was at present so prevalent among all sections of the
Protestant clergy to look favourably on Roman Catholics,
and to make unjust concession to them. Having these
opinions, he would oppose the second reading of the Bill.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM wished to detain the House for a
-short time while he stated his reasons for giving his support
to the second reading of the Bill. He supported it, because
he was favourable to its spirit and because he conceived that
that was the spirit of toleration.—(Hear, bear.) If there be
Fetch penalties in the statute-book, he for one was satisfied
that they should be inquired into, with a view to ascertain
it; without danger to the community, they could not be re-
Moe-ed.—(Heer, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman the Member
for the University of Oxford had endeavoured to show that
tire Act of 1829 was one which should be swept from the
statute-book. He (Sir James Graham), so far from con-
curring in that opinion, thought it one of the brightest pages
in the statute-book, and was a consummation which he,
from the part he took in it, should always look back upon
with delight. He did not see why they should have any oh-
jection to this Bill, or why they should think that it swept
away any of those safeguards which it would be desirable to
have, for it did not go so far as the Bill in the other House.
The Bill in the other House provided relief for all Dissenters,
while this one proposed to remove those only which affected'
R0111;411 Catholics:. In some other respects also the Bill in the
other Mouse went further. - He had the greatest veneration
and respect for the religion which the Hon. Member
for the i'hivereity of Oxford professed, but he was sorry
to say that, iu Ins opinion, the policy of that Church
towards Roman Catholics, in -former times, was most
unhappy and unwise.—(llear.) He believed that in conse-
quence of that policy the British Crown had been deprived of
the as-istance of the ablest men in England. The Hon.
Member for the University of Oxford had admitted that
there were penal Acts on the statute-book which ought to
be repealed ; yet he was opposed to the second reading of
this Bill, which proposed to repeal the greater portion of
those Acts. For his (Sir J. Graham's) own part, he confessed
that if there were such penal statutes as had
been alluded to, it was the bounden duty of the
Legislature to repeal them. And what had been the
defence set up with reference to the clause respecting Roman
Catholic schoolmasters? The lion. Member for Oxford ad-
mitted that there was another clause, but that it never
came into operation. He also admitted in the course of his

speech that that statute ought to be repealed, and vet he
said that he would oppose the second reading of this Bill
which proposed to repeal it. He (Sir J. Graham) was most
anxious that this Bill should be passed lute a law as quickly
as poseible. He was not, however, prepared on the part of her
Majesty's Government to sanction the second reading of the
Bill. lie also reserved to himself the power of proposing, in
Committee, some alterations with regard to the concluding
clauses of the Bill. The Hon. Member had said that this
Bill proposed to repeal the Act of Supremacy, but it pro-
posed no such thing. He (Sir J. Graham) would, in fact
-oppose the repeal of that Act ; nor did the Bill
which was now in progress in the other House
of Parliament propose the repeal of the Act of
Supremacy. He did think that, considering the immense
number of the Roman Catholic subjects of her Majesty, penal-
ties should no longer be enforced against them in either a
temporal or spiritual point of view.—(Hear, hear.) He
would again say that he really thought that the great settle-
ment of the year 1829 should, so far from being regarded as
unhappy, be considered as a most politic and wise settle-
ment.—( Hear hear.) To that settlement he was determined
to adhere. With the reservation to which he had already
referred; lie was prepared to give his most cordial support to
the second reading of this Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WISE would gladly have left the introduction of a
measure of Reman Catholic relief to the good feeling and
tentions of Protestant Members of that House, rather than
n measure of that nature should have originated in conse-
luence of any complaints made by the Roman Catholic por-
tion of the House. He did not think it wise to keep on the
statute-busk the remnant of a law condemned by the general
feeling of the people of the country. His Right Hon. Friend
:seemed to have misunderstood the subject before the House.
The House was not at present in Committee, where objections
might be taken-to this or that clause of the Bill. They were
discussing the general principles of the measure. If these
enactments were useless, as the Right Hon. Baronet had
wined, he would ask why were they kept on the statute-
Ireele ? He thought, therefor e that his Right Hon. Friend
wile bound, in consequence of his own showing that the laws
s; ere ineffective, and were continually evaded, to support the
second reading of the Bill ; while, at the same time, Hon.
Members on his side of the House were not bound to re-
pudiate the measure in consequence of any observations
which fell from the Right lion. Baronet. He (Mr. Wyse)
vonsidered it perfectly impossible to attempt, by any legis-
lative 'enactments, to bind the Opinions or consciences of
any class of her Majesty's subjects.—(Cries of "Hear, bear.")
If the Elonse woem look, through the Act, they would timid
eienemeitts coeepelling the citizens of a free. country, differ-
ing teen'elie establiehel religion, to attend the public read•
in;; rommon prayer. He could not be. blind to the benefits
conferred en the country by the wise government of Queen
Eli-4'll)2th and the politic measures of her statesmen; but
he could not help attributing toiler the bad policy which had
been-observable on the subject throughout the succeeding
reigns. With regarfl to the observations of the Hon. Member
f•Jr Ratlandehire, he gave him due credit for good feeling; but
he wished that he had been more accurately informed of the
opinions of Catholic writers, and of the nature of Catholic
prayers. There was no such thing as a recognition of the tem-
poral supremacy of the Pope in any place beyond the Papal
dominions. Such a belief was well suited to the dark ages, but
not to the present time ; and he would join all Europe in
deprecating the extent of the power of the Pope beyond the
Papal dominions. With regard to what had been said about
an enactment for the suppression of the Jesuits, and the forcing
open of conventual institutions, or that there should be at
least an inquiry instituted into their practice a sort
of inquiry of lunacy, perhaps—did the Hon. Member
not know that those institutions were perfectly open,
and that females entering them were allowed a
certain time to consider before. they assumed the title of
nuns ? With regard to the title of bishop, it should be re-
collected, that though it was different in Ireland, in England
no Catholic bishop took his tithe from any English see, and
there was nu Roman Catholic bishop who took his title from
an existing see, except when the Protestant title had
ceased, as in the case of the Roman Catholic Archbishop of
Teem, and in that ease theree was no Protestant title.
'Therefore he hoped that that House would not longer con-
tinue this relic of an age of, bigotry, of which he, if he were
a Pretestiett, would be utterly ashamed. On these grounds,
then, he trusted that in this House he should hear no more
of non-tight of dignitaries of the Roman Catholic Church to
the titles which they nuw Lure.-(hear.)
Mr. COLQUIIOUN was anxious to state the grounds
upon which he should support his lion. Friend the Alimber
for the llniversity of Oxford. Ile admitted that there were
Acts bearing upon this subject _to be found in the statute-
book, which he was perfectly prepared to get rid of; and
so far as they related to educational matters, he agreed with
the observations which had fallen from the Hon. Member
who had just sat down. There were parts of this Bill to
which he took exception, but if those parts were expunged in
Committee lie did not. know whether he might not be in-
(-lineal to assent to the measure.—(Bear,) He, however,
, certainly slid not agree with the Right Hon. Baronet the Se-
cretary of State,for the Home Department, that because a
Bill contained enactments which were wise and just in them-
selves, he was justified in voting for it second reading, while
at the same time there was a paramount part of the Bill
which was considered highly objectionable, and contrary to
the spirit of the constitution.—(Hear.) And, without going
back to defend the _ reign of Queen Elizabeth; &sari-
- guisbed as that reign was for the advancement of religion,
and the promotion of literature, because any one who looked
into the works of Spencer or Shakspere, or studied the
works of Lord Bacon. must be convinced that it required
no. defence. lie would contend that the paramount part of
the Bill to which he objected was decidedly opposed to that
wise and equitable spirit which ought to actuate them in
the present day.—(Hear.) The constitution of the country
was based upon one recognised and constituted authority ;
they must take care not to allow an authority to exist that
was above the authority of the Crown and the Parliament
of the country. He found that it was the opinion of many
forties connected with the Church of Rome, that that
Church bad newer over all ecclesiastical matters ; that in
• this respect it had supreme control. This was asserted by
many writers who concur in this view of the power of the
Chnich. If so, let them take the case of an election. A
vote given in an election would be considered an eeclesiasti-
eel matter, though an elector was considered alone respon-
ate. en a political point of view to the country. That a
vat; dean. election was an ecclesiastical matter, was stated
-.by/the Church of Rome, -and in proof of that they had the
aridence:.of the • Committee appointed in 1835. It was
..--eleeeeteindelreetkat Committee that the Church Of Rome held
[his
OVONN-F,LI. said it was not so.
'Al's. COLQU'iIotA4 said tho Hon. and Learned Gentleman
could not disputethe fact, as the evidence taken before the
ree

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