The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-21 00:00:00

Mr. J. STEWART believed the great evil of Ireland
was the want of a sufficient tenure of land, but, in his
opinion, there never was a Bill framed more calculated to
continue, and even add to thatevii, as the present measure.
It was well known that holders of land there did nut de-
rive from the owners in fee, generally speaking, but had
leases from third parties, which was, almost on all eeeas
sioas, studiously concealed. He should support the Bill,
it it gave a purchaser the power of treating with the
tenant' y, as deriving for himself, and if they sold other-.
wise, they had leases, sub-leases, and a variety of exist-
ing relations between occupiers and owners of land, which
would throw the whole country into a state of the utmost
contusion and litigation in a degree beyond all calcula-
tion. Suppose there was an incumbrance of an estate
created by himself.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.—Then he can't sell.
Mr. STEWART—If that were the interpretation
given by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman the Member for the University
of Dublin, who held so distinguished a position at the
Irish bur, held a different opinion. The purpose of the
Act, if it had any object at all, was to enable persons,
who at least thought they had an interest in th. it
estates, to sell that interest. But the present Bill
crtati.d new litigation; for the Ist and 10th clauses,
which threw the proceedings into the Court of Chancery,
would create years and years of litigation, and ulti-
mately swallow up the entire land of Ireland in law
proceedings. There was no man in England better able
to form an opinion on such a subject than,the present
Lord Chancellor of England; but if all the,proceedings
were to be thrown into the Court of ChanCs'ry, he, (or
one, would not believe the Noble Lord had any hand in
drawing it up. There was not a man; not even an Irish-
man—(Laughter, and "Order")—who would purchase an
estate which was open to litigation as it would be under
this Bill.
Mr. MAUNSELL said that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman who last addressed. the House, said he did
not object to the Bill as it came down from the House of
Lords, but his objections to it arose from the alteration
made in it by the Ilon. and Learned Gentleman the
Solicitor- General. Yet the arguments used by the lion.
and Learned Gentleman were against the '2l3tb,-Clause 9f
the Bill, which was inserted in the Bill in theilouse of
Lords: In his opinion, the Bill, as now franied, would
greatly fatfilitate the sale of incumbered estates in Ire-
land. It was alact,. that the pressure upon the tenants.
in Ireland, arose from the pecuniary difficulties of the
landlords of that country; and, it was the duty of the
HouSe to afford every mesas'. by which this , systetis
should be altered. •‘k would tend to the good of the
tenants' as well as to the landlords themselves: He re-
gretted to hear that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had expressed his determination to oppose the proposi-'
tion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilmarnock,

in relation to the abolition of the duties on the sale of
small proprieties. He trusted the Hon.- and Learned
, .
Member would persevere in his motion on this subject.
The House then divided, when there appeared— '
For the atne,ndment ' 52
...
Against it
‘ ' -.Majority - ' • ' —145 .
Sir G. HAMILTON, moved. the insertiOn of a-clause : . -
" Whereas doubts are entertained whether, whena judg-
ment ....
affects lands in Ireland, and when the person en-
titled`r to such judgment is willing to release's petition of
such lands in order to- the sale thereof or otherwise, ho
~
can grant such release without nullifying the-effect or ee
validity of such judgment upon the residue thereof, or
any otberproperty which it is intended should remain
subject to such judgment, and whereas it is expedient
~.
that such doubts be removed, be it enacted, that the re- •
lease of 'any portion of lands in Ireland from any judg-
ment affecting the same, shall not operate or be con-
strued
to extend or operate, so as to nullify, or in any , • •
manner to affect the validity and force of such judgment ' -
.as regards the residue of such lands, or any other pro- '1
perty not Specially released from such judgment ; but
that such judgment shall continue to affect such residue .. -.-
or other property, notwithstanding such release, in like . elll- ,
...
manner, and with the like powers to enforce payment of ....
interest and principal, and to all intents and purposes se
if such deed of release had not been executed.' .
After a few words from the SOLICITOR-GENE-
RAL, ... .
the clause was agreed to. .
Mr. SADLIER moved several verbal amendments, . •
which were also agreed to. e .:
The report was then brought up, and the Bill ordered
to be re-printed. . •, -
CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS BILL. ' The order of the day for the second-reudingof this Bill
haying been-read, - - - _
Colonel SIBTHORP Mbved as an imadment that the , ,
Bill be read a second
,time Out day six, mnnthe. Inde-
pendent
of the objectioesehe considered that at this period
of the session iefwould: be utterly impossible to carry
the measure, whittle ought AO have full, firm, and
complete' consideration , before it - became ..,the law of
the . laud.. He , was eery.. ~anxious • to. kaow when
they were to have the -.budget,- Which lip 'regarded .
as of greater. imipbrialfcp etlte-t%. thee-Bilt -sought to
be smuggled through Parliament -by • this Govern-
ment, than whom there existed not a more itibompetent,
....
hollow, eind. treaeheroue set ,of -,men; From the com- ..
mencement of the present sessiorteabout • seventy public
Bills had been introduced, and fortylfour-Bills.by pri-
vate 'Mini-Jeri;
,of Which: Aileen' bacrheen withdrawn, a•
i many of them of nfinitely, more importance than the - -
Corrupt Practices at Elections Bilk The_slion. and -
Gallant Gt ntleman having enumerated the Goiernment "
measures abandoned this session, deserihr2d the Corrupt
Practices at Elections Bill aspertial-in itsUperation, in-
complete in its arrangements, eonaptielitetrit'itit ma-
chinery; and involving thbprireiple of second trial for
' the same offence. Ile she*,' ne matter what support .....
he rreeivedefeel it his duty to divide the House against
the Bill. .
_..
Mr. HOBHOUSE seconded the amendment.,
Mr. BANIC.I:;S concurred in much that-led fallen .
from the Hoe. raid Gallant Gentleman, but he could not • ...
support the ern.ndment, for he felt that_ the Bill wa,, if
____. ....... ._. ~_... .
not what they-might.Xsire, at least, in the main prin- •
ciple, .deserving of approvals,. There were sense of its
&mile to which be could-test assent, but to die present
stage of the Bill, he should give his vote. . With regard
to, sonic of 'the places nerved ;fa the'sehedtile, he was not
aware of .the dereerits_Whiel, 1141 places) thein there. lie
regretted that under the Noble Lord's liefatnt Bill bri'
bery and 'Corruption had - become' mere ..eomiiion than
under. the .old system, and lie also regretted' the' Noble
Lord had nee earlier turned hie attention to the subjects
. ,
lie now, however, had no doubt but they would be able '
to put an end to this great evil, although he was sure ,
• that the Noble" Lord could not, thitik.'orbripging his •
measure into operation during the present session.
Mr. C. ANSTEY thought at that late hour 'of the
night, in the presence of an impatient, assembly, this
was too important a measure to be brought op. The I
House was not in a temper to discuss 'so important a
measure.—(oh, oh!) And he would, therefore; more
the adjournment of the debate.-=-(Oh, oh!)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Honourable tied
Gallant Gentleman the Member for-Lincoln had repre'
sented him as being exceedingly anxious to mini for'
ward this Bill'; but the Horiourabre eti;cl Learned Gen'
tleman the Member for Dorsetshire had much more
correctly -represented-ehitne-when the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman said that -he was very unwilling to
,
make himself re'.epciii4ble for this measure at that late
period of the session. In fact, foe many 'years past, be ..
had taken a very prominent pert in these inquiries, and .
knowing the iniidious nature of a measure of :this kind. . ..
he had felt more unwilling than otherwise' he would
have done ie bringing it forward. He thought that on
a subject of this kind -it was desirable to obtam.as.thuch •
agreement in the House as possible:—(tleir; hear.)
He thought that the measure which ho nosy
proposed with sufficient 'for the 'purpose in view, and
he thoroughly believed the Hon. and Gallant-. Member
who opposed the Bill did not at all wish to promote cor-
rupt practices or bribery at election's.--4 Hear, hear.)
With a view of obtaining as much agreement in the
House as 'possible 'on the subject, he 'had framed
the Bill ,in its present shape.—(Hear; hear.) Al,
he reully thought that he had besn so far successful, and
as he believed that'the Hon. and Learned Member op'
posite (Mr. Bankes) and his party were. willing to deter
their objections to the Bill until the House got into
Committee upon it, he thought that it was not a reason'
able course to move an adjournment at that stage.-- .
(Hear, hear.) It might be unfortunate that he had to
move the second reading of this Bill on the 20th of July,
but if such a course of opposition were persevered in, he
would have to move the second reading at,a much later
period.—(Hear, hear.) ,
Mr. HUDSON said fie bad 'objected to the former •
Bill on this subject, and he alsOohjeetedeeethe present.
Not that lie was opposed to inquiry, but because the in-
,•
quiry proposed was partial in its operation. If they
were anxious for inquiry, let eiteh Member produce a re'
turn of the money 'spent at his election—(Laughter)
whether by himself, his committee, or his agents, and .
then after examining these, they could easily judge what
boroughs or counties were liable to be placed upon the
schedule attached to the Bill, and what were-not. He ..
was himself quite prepared to give in such a return.---
(Hear, hear.) Let the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government do the same, and let other Hon. Members
follow that example, and then there would ke no dif'
ficulty whatever in finding out the guilty places. Should .
they adopt that course they would have his support, but
he would not give his countenance to a partial inquiry.
such as that demanded.—(Hear, hear).
..
Mr. W. MILES supported the second reading of the
Bill. He believed such a Bill exceedingly necessary ,
He did not agree with the former measures on the sub-
ject, but he was ready to give the Noble Lord his stir
port on the principle of the present measure. He did
not wonder that the Hon. and Gallant Member for Line
coin (Colonel Sibthorp) should not like the Bill; as the
•
borough he represented was included in the schedule, es
it was one of the defaulters. There was, to be sure, 0° •
gross corruption practised in it, but there was a systen:
of " free and easier " kept up, which looked somewhs
suspicious.—(Laughter.) But what they had to look to
was prevention for the future; and thinking that the
present Bill would have that effect, he would vote for
the second reading. -
Mr: NE WDEGATE rose amid loud cries ofd Divide
and withdraw." .He was understood to request 1.11.'
Anstey to withdraw his motion of adjournment.. ..
Mr. ANSTEY said, his reason for the postponereen!
was, that when he rose to address the House lie was rnel:
by a species of noise from the Treasury Beech which
he should not attempt to characterise.—(Laughter:)
Were he now allowed to proceed, he should state 111.:
views on the principle of the measure as briefly as P°'
sible._(Cries of “Go on, go on.") The present mea-
sure was said to be founded on the report of certain
Committees. These Committees, it was said, had not
fully examined into the corrupt practices which it Vlas
alleged had prevailed in the places referred. to in the
schedule attached to the Bill. But why did-.130t the
Noble Lord instruct his Attorney or Solicitor General
to institute an inquiry into those facts when they were
b
made aware of them? His not doing so showed that e
was not anxious to scrutinise into those matters, more
particularly as most of the Members against whom such
_
corrupt practices were alleged swelled the Ministerial
. ..I`.
. • ,.._ , . .
..„-,