The Sun.
London, England, 1848-02-23 00:00:00

HOUSE OF CO,ll MONS, Feb. 22.

SECRET COMMITTEES OF INQUIRY INTO
THE ARMY AND NAVY AND REVENUE
EXPENDITURE OF THE COUNTRY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
rose to propose the appointment of two Committees ;
the first to inquire into the expenditure on account of
the army, navy, and ordnance ; and the second into
the micellaneous expenditure of the country, and to
report their observations thereon to the House. lie
said he had deemed it advisable to make both of the
motions together, and to preface all the observations
he had to make with respect to them into one address--
the one he now rose to make. It had been usual on the
part of the House to appoint Committees of
inquiry into the income and expenditure of the
company, with a view to amendment. In the
present circumstances of the country the Go-
vernment had deemed it expedient to pro-
pose these inquiries. He confessed that he had
not seen the increased expenditure of the country
without much uneasiness, and as blame might be
attributed to the Government, it was due he thought
to them and to the country to institute such an in-
quiry. The lion. Gentleman the Member for Mon-
trose, who had always taken an active part in the
discussions on these subjects, had expressed himself
in favour of the appointment of these Committees,
adding that the circumstances required such an hives-
titration. The expenditure of the country, from 1835
to 1847, had increased from 11,700,0001. to 17,300,0001.
The increase in the army during that time had been
small ; in the navy it had been nearly 3,500,0001.,
and in the ordnance more than double the
cost of that department in 1835. These
facts formed, he thought, a fit subject for
inquiry. Ile had no doubt but this increased expen-
diture had been called for by the wants of the country,
end it should be borne in mind that the expenditure
that had taken place had received the sanction of the
House. The expenditure that had taken place had re-
received the sanction of the various sessions of Parlia-
ment. No division, he believed, had taken
piace on any material vote proposed by the
Oovernment ; nay, more, 4 very considerable portion

of the increased expenditure had been pressed upon
the different Governments by individual and inde•
pendent Members of the House. He recollected when
he was Secretary to the Admiralty that the insuffi•
ciency of the armaments was complained of, and
augmentations strongly recommended. He did not
consider either the past or present Govern-
mtea ts were to blame for the increased ex'
peryiiture that had taken place.—(Hear, hear.)
The lion. Member for Montrose suggested that it
would be more important to appoint a Finance Com"
mittec to go into the whole question of the expendi'
ture. The Government, however, thought that in so
wide an inquiry, no such beneficial result could be
obtained as could be obtained by limiting the
inquiry. It was also suggested that a Committee,
should be appointed to inquire into the collection et
the revenue and the whole financial condition of the
country. The Government, at the commencement of
the session, thought that it would be better to
postpone an inquiry of this extent as there were some
very imporiant Committees to be appointed to in'
quire into other matters. Her Majesty's
tern were now of opinion that the time bed
arrived for the appointment of the Committees
of which he had given notice, and to refer to those
Committees the estimates which had been laid
upon the table of the House by bar Ms'
jesty's Government. It was desirable that
the House should know that the increase in the
estimates did not arise from an actual increase in
the numbers of the army or navy, but arose from the
increased pay to the petty officers and seamen, and for
providing better accommodation for the men themselves.
The distribution of the forces had also been commented
upon by some Hon. Members, and it was not desir
able that this subject should also be considered 11
the Committee to be appointed. He did not think it
would be wise to follow too closely the precedent!
of former times with respect to the appointment of
these Committees. He did not think that the or
pointment of these Committees would show any,
thing like a desire, on the part of her Majesty'',
Government, to throw the responsibility of the
estimates upon the Committee. The appointment
of similar Committees upon previous occasions bl
other Governments did not show in them any desire
to shrink from responsibility; nether was it I°,
in the present case. Her Majesty's Ministers hel
proposed such estimates as they thought proper, and
by them they were prepared to stand. The Com'
mittee in 1817 reported upon the disposition of the
forces in the colonies and other parts of the empire.
and made several valuable suggestions upon the sub•
ject. He believed that only one witness was els"
mined before the Committee upon that occasion.
That Committee thought it proper to commence their
labours with the consideration of the estimates for
the army and the navy, and Government wished to
do no more than appoint a Committee that should
pursue a similar course of inquiry now. It could
not be said, then, that there was no precedent for the
motioa he was proposing to the House, and he could
not see what possible objection the House could have
upon that score against adopting it. He did
not know that he need detain the House
further except to make one or two remarks
upon what he meant the other night.
in speaking of a Secret Committee. At that time be
laboured under the impression that the Committees to
which he bad already referred were of a secret cbarsc•
ter, but he had since ascertained that this impression
was an erroneous one. True, these Committees had
the power of excluding parties from the
room in which they met, and of occasionally
suppressing evidence if they thought it expedient to
do so, and he proposed that the Committee he was
now asking for should be appointed with
in.tructions to carry on its inquiries upon the same
principle; and therefore without any longer detaining
the House, he would move the appointment of the
Select Committee of which he had already given
notice.

--• •
Lord G. BENTINCK was glad that her Majesty
Government had felt the expediency of changing
the nature of this Committee, by making it,
a Select instead of a Secret Committee, stna
assured Government and the House that, had 00
Right lion. Baronet persevered in the intention
which he announced last night, of moving for s
Secret Committee, he should have continued his oppo'
sition to such a proposal, because he thought that
nothing could be more injurious than that questions con'
nocted with the national defences, and with the regula-
tion of the army and navy should be submitted to
Committee of that House, and above all, to a Secret
Committee. He presumed that the questions submitted
to the Committee would bo connected with the possible
diminution of our expenditure, but he trusted that bill
Noble Friend did not mean to relieve himself from the
responsibility of coming down to the House with what
he thought necessary for the defences of the country.
and standing by his recommendation. Former Cow
mittees had been Finance Committees, and had been
Appointed with a view of retrenchment, but he believed
there was no precedent for a Committee to inquire
whether the national defences should be increased, or
additions made to the army, miry, or ordoanee, lie
believed that in 1786 the question of the fortification
of Portsmouth came under the consideration of Mr.
Pitt's Government, but that was not referred to a Select
Committee, but to a commission comprising, in the
words of Mr. Pitt, all that was resp-ctable in both
services. Making his protest against the appointment
of the Committee as an encroachment on the privileges
of the Crown, and the functions of the Executive, be
should not further object to the proposition of his Noble
Friend.

Mr. DISRAELI said he had on the previous evening
asserted that no precedent could be found fur the pro-
ceeding of the Government, but he had not laid it down
that Government ought always to be hampered by strict
attention to precedent. But, when a Minister came for-
ward to recommend a particular course, and wished to
establish the propriety of that course by elaborate and
alino,t pedantic references to precedent, and when he
(Mr. Disraeli) found that those precedents did not plc'
cede that course, he thought he was fully justified in
commenting as he had dune.—(hear, hear.) They had
been told on a previous night by a high authority (sir
R. Peel) that Committees like the present had been de-
cennially appointed from 1765 to 1828. If the Ministers
felt bound by precedents they would find many to sup-
port them; and, on the other hand, it they despised pre-
cedents, they would also be well supported. But if the/
came forward as the respecters of precedents one night*
and on the next disclaimed them when they did
not suit their case, claiming credit for their
creative faculty in striking out new courses, be
thought that that was not a coarse worthy the
approbation of the House. He entirely disagreed
with the Government on the question of precedent,
which, in most cases, might be defined as a custom ern•
balming a principle. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had that night told the House that he referred the esti'
mates to a Committee in the hope that a considerable
reduction might be effected. But in tho message from
the Throne, on the commencement of the session, these
words were addressed to the House of Commons:—" Fier
Majesty has directed that the estimates for the next year
shall be prepared for the purpose of being laid before
you. They will be prepared with a careful regard to the
exigencies of the public service."—(Hear, hear.) But
these estimates had been framed a fortnight, and yet the
Chancellor of the Exchequer could not take upon him-
self to say that considerable reductions might not be
made in them.—(Dear, hear.) He found that all the
Finance Committees which had been mentioned bad
been appointed to inquire into the revenue and expendi-
ture of the country generally. The naval and military
establishments were merely mentioned inter alia, and
there was not one of them which had not been pre-
viously announced in the speech from the Throne.--
(Hear, hear.) In the case of the Committee of 1828 the
speech from the Throne bad previously recommended
" early attention to the state of the revenue and expen-
diture of the country." He asked, was there any ana-
logy in those instances and the one before the House'
A sacrifice was required from the general body of Mem-
bers of their right to criticise and examine the estimates,
and they had had no fair warning of what was to be re-
quired from them. A motion was made for a Com-
mittee of Supply, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer
suddenly rote up to stop all criticisms, by stating that he
was going to send the estimates to a Committee upstairs.
What reasons had he given ? Noise ; but he hail given
precedents and now he acknowledged that those pre-
cedents did not apply.—(Hear.) The Committee of
182.8, had been proposed for the purpcso of effecting re-
form, but the present was suggested for a totally dif-
ferent purpose, to get increased establishments, and, con-
sequently, increased taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Well
then, if precedent did not bear out the Government, let
the House look to the principle involved. It was neither
more nor less than shifting the responsibility of the
the Government on a Committee of the House of
Commons.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") If they wore to
have a Committee to prepare the estimates, why not
also have one to ascertain the means by which those
estimates were to be paid for ?—(Hear, hear.) As far
as he could judge of the temper of the House, it would
ne very convenient if, in addition, the income-tax could
he referred to a Committee up stairs. —(A laugh.) He
thought that the Government had made a great mis-
take; but they were happy men—even their blunders
only proved the anxiety of their opponents to assist
them.—(Laughter.) The Noble Lord at their head
had made a warlike speech, which showed that if war
should occur we were wholly unprepared to meet it.
He believed that a great majority of the country attri-
buted the deficiency to the new fortifications. But all
this might have passed off quietly if the Noble Lord
had announced in the first instance that he was not
going to increase the military or naval votes. And
with reference to the militia, too, he (Mr. Disraeli)
found that there was a Militia Committee appointed
every year; and, surely, that Committee might have taken
a portion of the labours of the Noble Lord. He (Ws
Disraeli) should follow the example of the Noble Lord
the Member for Lynn, and not oppose the Government
preposition ; but still he could not allow it to ass with:
out entering his protest against the course wphich ha
been taken ; it was in his mind unauthorised by the
ractice of Parliament, and would prove but little con-
ducive to the dignity of her Majesty's Government. -1-1
it had been regularly introduced in the speech from the
Throne, the House :might have accepted it as dignus
vindice nodus ; but to be brought forward without prepa-
ration in Committee of Supply, Government comult
down one night to do one thing and the next night to !Jo
another, was a course not calculated to elevate the
character either of public men or of Parliament.:
ii&WDEGATE concurred with the Lion. Mew