The Sun.
London, England, 1846-02-24 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 24, 1046.

call the attention of the house to the state of the prisons under tion, and which was to shed light and happiness on tha
the jurisdiction of the City of London. world. And what was it that the Hon. Gentleman proposed?
AFFAIRS OF GREECE, why, to give a preponderance to the agricultural interest—to

Mr. COCHRANE wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentle-
man at the head of the Government whether the Greek Go•
vernment had paid the interest upon the loan granted
by this country ? Also whether the Right Hon. Gentleman
had any objection to lay on the table a copy of the dispatch of
Lard Aberdeen to Sir Edmund Lyons, in which payment of the
interest was required. He also wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman whether he had received any official communication
of the report that the recent mails in passing the Isthmus of
Corinth had been attacked by banditti, the letters torn out, and
some of them destroyed; and whether those addressed to Sir
Edmund Lyons had been torn up, while those addressed to
Colletti had been spared?
Sir ROBERT PEEL said the interest on the loan had not
been paid. Should ne provision be made for it by the Greek
Government, it would be their duty, under the convention of the
united powers, to make the requisite provision far the payment of
the interest. The next payment would take place in a short pe-
riod. With respect to the last dispatches upon that subject, and
in reply to the questions of the Hon. Member, he was pre-
pared to give no other reply, and with respect to the report
concerning the stoppage of the courier, the only information
that he had received was contained in a letter
from Sir Edmund Lyons. From that they learnt that
the courier had been stopped with the letters and
dispatches of the 3d of September, and that all the letters
and dispatches had been opened and their contents rifled. He
believed this to be the agency of banditti. The only letter
which had not been opened appeared to be a communication
addressed by a Greek chief of the name of Rallish to the Greek
Consul-General. All these letters had been opened, he
believed, with the expectation that they contained money, and
with the view of securing it.
THE INDIAN CONFLICT.
Sir R. INGLIS wish to ask the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of her Majesty's Government some questions respecting
the intelligence which was lately said to have been received
from India. The Right Hon. Baronet must be aware of the
great anxiety that prevailed on the subject, and he would beg
to inquire, therefore, whether the Government had received
any dispatches by the last East India mail? Secondly,
whether the information which had been published by the
morning papers was substantially correct ? Thirdly, whether
the returns which had been received, if there were any, would
be published in an extra Gazette to-morrow morning, and
whether it would Contain returns of all the casualties which
were reported to have taken place during the battles ? Lastly,
what was likely to be the effect of the circumstances which had
just taken place in India?
Sir R. PEEL was triite ready to give an answer to the ques.
thin of his Hon. Friend, that information had been received. The
dispatches he had not himself seen, but he had received a letter
from his Hon. Friend the Governor-General ; and from that he
had learnt that the statements in the papers, so far as the facts
were concerned, were substantially correct, so far as that a great
battle had been fought, and that a great victory had been gained,
though he regretted to ttate not without serious loss to the
British army. However, the fullest information which the
Government possessed would be given to the public without
delay. The dispatches were now being copied, and would be
published in an extra Gazette at the earliest possible moment.
FRANCHISE OF IRELAND.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to ask the questions of the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government of
which he had given notice, respecting the municipal and elec-
tive franchise of Ireland ; as also whether it was his intention
to bring in any Bill on the part of the Government for
affording compensation to the tenantry of Ireland for any
improvements which they had effected on the lands in their
occupation, in the event of their being put out of possession.
The letters were these-Ist. Whether it be the intention of
her Majesty's Government to bring in any Bill, during the
present session, to enable the same proportion, as nearly,
as can be, of the people of Ireland to enjoy the elec-
tive franchise with the comparative proportion of
the population of England enjoying that franchise ?
2nd. Whether it be the intention of her Majesty's Government
to bring in any Bill, during the present session, to enable the
people of Ireland to return a just and an adequate number of
representatives to this House? 3rd. Whether it he the inten-
tion of her Majesty's Government to bring in any Bill, during the
present session, to equalise the franchise and powers in the
Municipal Reform Act for Ireland with the same franchises
and powers conceded by the Municipal Reform Act of England
to the English Corporations ? 4th. Whether it be the inten-
tion of Her Majesty's Government to bring in any Bill, during
the present session, to give to tenants in Ireland adequate
and full compensation for improvements made upon their
lands daring the tenantcy ?
Sir R. PEEL was quite ready to give as full a reply as ho
was able, to the questions of the lion. and Learned
Gentleman. And in answer to his first question, he must beg
to observe that it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to give precedence to the measures of the most pressing
importance which were now before the House. Those
measures had a large reference to the commercial interests
of the country ; and the Government, therefore, felt that it
was a paramount duty to bring them to a conclusion without
interfering with their progress by the introduction of any other
measure ire() the House. There were, then, other measures of
importance which concerned the financial concerns of the
country. These being disposed of, he had no hesitation
in saying that tt was the intention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to introduce measures upon the points
to which the Noble and Learned Gentleman had referred.
In reply to the first of these inquiries, it had been decided that
Ireland was entitled to the same extent of elective franchise, in
proportion to its inhabitants and means, as England. That
it was intended to assimilate the municipal franchise with
that of England, and that it was but just, in their opinion,
to give the tenants of land sufficient compensation
for the capital which they might have expended in the
improvement of their holding. He would state nothing more
with regard to the precise nature of the measures which the
Government contemplated. And he thought it would
be unfair to press him further on that point. (Cheers )
The next case occurs in the county of Roscommon, and it is
communicated by the manager of the National Bank in that
town, who was a person not calculated to have excited the
animosity of the labouring classes. He states that
his mother resides a short way out of the town
of Roscommon, and that on the 7th of January last her house
was entered between eight and nine at night by a body of
armed men, and she was forced upon her knees to take an
oath that she would discharge her bog-herd, and appointed to
his place another person whom they named. The gentleman
who communicated this case was Mr. B. G. Irvin ; and he
added that the acts of these lawless banes ne,l thrown all the
peaceful inhabitants of the district into a state of the utmost
alarm.
Mr. O'CONNELL desired to know whether the Govern.
ment would have any objection to lay on the table of the House
a copy o" the correspondence passed between the Lord Lieu-
tenant of Ireland and the inhabitants of Westmeath respecting
the case of Brian Seery ?
Sir J. GRAHAM, who was indistinctly heard, was under-
stood to say that the Government would have no objection.
There had been an address to the Lord Lieutenant praying that
the law might take its course ; he regretted deeply such an
unusual proceeding.—( Hear.) But that interference had no
effect in deciding the intentions of the Executive, which were
founded on a most careful investigation of the entire of
the evidence.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the third por-
tion of the H in. Gentleman's question, namely, whether there
be any instance in England, for the last century, of any person
being tried for any capital felony, by a second jury, after the
firstjury was discharged by the court, at the same session of
assizes, and convicted and executed ; and if so, state the
time, place, and name of the individual. He would
excuse him if he were not sufficiently versed in
the practice of the law, but in the year 1794, at the summer
assisea at York, there was a man tried for murder before Mr.
Justice Lawrence, and the first jury having disagreed, he or-
dered a second to be sworn, who convicted the prisoner;
and, notwithstanding a representation to the Home
Secretary, the law was allowed to take its course.
The judge in that case had not summed up, because one of
the jury had been taken ill, and that jury was discharged and
another jury sworn, who convicted the prisoner. A case had
also occurred on the Alidland Circuit recently, before Mr.
Justice Coltman. The prisoner was a female in that case, named
Hannah Jarvis, who was indicted for murder. The jury could
come to no decision at that, the spring assizes, but at the
following the summer assizes, the prisoner was again put upon
her trial upon the same indictment, and she was acquitted ;
but fie cited this as a case in which the principle mentioned by
the Hon. Member was acted upon. The point had also been
solemnly argued before the Lord Chief Baron and Baron Brady,
and decided by them. It arose out of a case in which Baron Brady
had passed sentence of death upon a prisoner, and upon the case
being referred to the Lord Lieutenant, and by him to the judge,
it was decided that the law should take its course.
Mr. O'CONNELL tt as aware that some eases had been de-
cided in Ireland somewhat similar to those mentioned by the
Right Hon. Baronet, such for instance as the celebrated case
of the Doneraile conspiracy ; but in that case all that was
known was that Baron Penefather, who was the first criminal
judge ,in Ireland, had given an opinion, but the opinion itself
was not known.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was glad to hear from the Right
lion; Baronet opposite, that he was about to introduce mute
sures for the better administration of the elective and municipal
franchise in Ireland, as well as with reference to tie tenant
interest in that country ; but he would wish to know whether
those measures would be introduced before a measure of another
character, affecting Ireland, about to be introduced in the
other House of Parliament, should come before that House.
Sir ROBERT PEEL.—I would rather not answer that
question.

give power to one class. Now, he could not admit the prin-
ciples which had been propounded by the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury (Mr. Disraeli). If those principles were to
be adopted nothing but confusion must arise. It was
neither more nor less than saying that for the
benefit of class interests the whole community
must be distressed. The next question was that which
had been proposed by the Right Honourable Baronet First Lord
of the Treasury. The great question was, whether protection
was right or wrong, and what course they should adopt con-
cerning it. It appeared that the country was divided into two
great parties—the moneyed and the industrial, he ought to say
the agricultural interests. If they favoured one, they could
not but injure the other. It was evident, therefore'
that protection was either a delusion or a fraud. If they were
to protect one at the expense of the other, it was making the
Sovereign of the country not the Sovereign of the people,
but of a faction or a party. He could not see how the dis-
tinction was to be drawn. They bad been told
that protection ought to be shown to the colonial interests.
If such were to be the case exclusively, what reason would not
they who have to do with foreign commerce have to com-
plain of the restrictions imposed by the duties on the articles
in which they dealt ? It was, in fact, giving a benefit to one
portion of the empire at the expense of the rest.
In conclusion, he would thank the House for the attention they
had bestowed on him, and he would merely state, that feel-
rug the necessity and importance of carrying the measure as
speedily as possible, he should give the Government his humble
but most cordial support. They bad, in circumstances of pecu-
liar difficulty, followed a course most consistent with their own
honour and with their duty to their Sovereign.—( Hear. )
Captain BATESON observed, that during the whole of the
protracted debate but one Irishman had spoken to the question,
and he,therefore, rose to state that he would Rive his most decided
opposition to the proposed measures of the Government. He held
in his hand an extract from a report by Mr. Leonard Falk-
ner, a Factory Commissioner, in 1845, in which he states that
a vast number of accidents arise in consequence of the cogs of the
wheels of the " throstle break" not being properly " boxed."
The Hon. Member having concluded reading the extract, he
said that the recommendations contained in the report for the
amelioration of the condition of the working people in
factories had particular reference to the factory of
John Bright, Brothers, of Rochdale.— ( Hear, hear.) And
he would now leave it to the House to say whether
the Honourable Member was sincere in his sympathies for
the poor, whether his regrets for their condition were not
feigned, and his philanthrophy spurious.—(Hear.) One
word more in reference to that Hon. Member, and he had
done with him. He had been asked what was the compara-
tive duration of human life in Wiltshire and Manchester, hut
he did not think proper to answer the question. But he
(Captain Bateson) could tell the House that in Wiltshire
the average duration of human li.e was thirty-three years.
while in Maneltester it was only seventeen. Hear, hear.)
Having made these observations, he would now confine his
remarks to his own unhappy country. No man regretted more
than he did the failure of the potato crop in Ireland; but
would it not be a mockery to say that the people of Ireland
would be benefited by lowering the price of the 'agricul-
tural produce of a people, eleven-twelfths of whom
depended upon it for support ?—( Hear, hear.) The
Drainage Bill would be one which, under the fostering
case of protection, would much benefit Ireland.
Employment had been acknowledged on all hands to be one of
the most efficacious means of relieving the misery and distress
that prevailed in Ireland ; and he (the Hon. Member) had
fondly looked forward to the improvement of land as a means
of increasing employment, when prosperity would be certain
to increase in proportion as distress diminished, and so would
the people of Ireland be vastly benefited.—( Hear, hear.) But
if the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman sheuld be carried,
could any person expect or suppose that the landlords would
by out their capital with the certainty of loss staring them in
the face ?—( Hear, hear.) Could the tenant afford to reclaim
the bog and sow it with corn, so as t o compete in the market
with the foreigner, who had the advantages of climate and land
in a superior state of cultivation ?—( Hear, hear.) No; the
b, g would remain barren, and the hill-side would continue to
' grow nothing but heather ; and one of the chief channels of
employment would thus be blocked up. He felt strongly
on the question, both for the sake of the agriculturist and
manufacturer. In the north of Ireland the hand-loom
weaver was often a farmer; and under the present system of
protection, in one small town 18,000/. worth of linen gas sold at
the weekly market ; but should the present measure pass, trade
would be destroyed, and the agriculture of the country would
be shut out by means of foreign competition. He protested
against the measure as being an unnecessary, a hazardous, and
a revolutionary s-.heme.—( Hear, bear.) No doubt the mea-
sure would have the effect of stimulating the advocates
for repeal of the union to increased exertions. They
would say to the farmer, " England has deprived you of the
advantage which her markets have hitherto given for the sale
of your corn, butter, beef, and pork—your occupation is gone,
and you are in no better position than the foreign trader,
and can you now refuse to cry, huzza for the repeal of
the union ?" He would again implore the Howe
to pause before it placed so dangerous a weapon in the hand of
designing agitators. He confessed that it was with feelings of
apprehension and alarm, that he looked forward to the proba-
bility of this measure passing into a law, the consequence of
which it was impossible to foresee. It might be the fore-
shadowing of another revolution which would affect things
of a more vital interest, and lead to the destruction of all for
which we once prized the English eor.stitution. He would
not take up the time of the House by alluding at length to
the smellne,s of the compensation which had been given to
Ireland, he should only state one fact, which was, that in Lon-
donderry the average charge for the police force for the last
three years was 2,217/. 10s. 5d., which was a very small
fraction above Id. per acre. If the Government had intended
to relieve Ireland, why not forego the repayment of the loan
for the erection of workhouses in that country ?—that would
have been considered a real boon. At present the only persons
that would be benefited by the compensation would be the
midnight legislators, who require a large police force. He asked
the House if it would sanction by its deliberate decision—
would the House declare that there was to be a new faith for its
Members—were its Members to become weather cocks, veering
about at every breath of popular opinion, to point nut the
quarter from which the blast of agitation was strongest? He
should still abide by the old war-cry of the country, "No sur-
render !" But, however, let him give them this warning, that
while they were advancing the doctrines of free trade, they
did not injure the very cause which they most desired to serve ;
that whilst they were urging proceeding on the impulse of this
age, and endeavouring to go onwards, :let them take care that
whilst their progress was onwards, it was not at the same time
downwards. Now, let him ask the Right Hon. Baronet
whether, in the concoction of this comprehensive measure he
provided for the contingency—for be was bound to provide for
all contingencies—if he had provided for contingency that in
the event of its proving by dear bought experience that his
measure had failed—that in the event of these acres which he
was now throwing out of cultivation remaining untilled, supplies
from abroad failing, the industry of the great manufacturing
distric's being paralysed, and famine and want staring that in-
dustrious community in the face, he begged to ask the Right
Honourable Baronet whether, in the event of such a contin-
gency as that, he had made any provision for retracing his
steps, and restoring the country to prosperity and abundance—.
" Facilis descensus averni, sed revocare grad= hic labor est."
Mr. MONTAGUE GORE was anxious to justify the
vote which he was about to give, and the opinions which he
now entertained of the subject before the House ; and he was
anxious to do this for the respect he entertained for a great
party within the House, and also for a great party out of doors.
In doing this, he must beg to remind the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down, that if there was a consistency which
was a great and noble quality, and which he hoped would
always b' met with in this country, there was
of asalospoinaionno:hheer.
species, of which obstinacy and self-interest were ingredients
When Hon. Gentlemen talked about changes
could convince them that in every great question which had
agitated this country there had been great changes of opinion.
On that great question of the corn-laws a great change of
opinion had taken place in those who had in 1814 and 1815
maintained that any price below 90s. a quarter for
wheat could not be remunerative. Mr. Huskisson, in
1814, was a strong advocate of 'protection mea-
sures ; and yet, as every one knew, he subsequently de-
clared that the corn-laws could not be maintained. If it were
an error to change, then were the public and all parties guilty
of the charge. He (Mr. Gore) would consider himself un-
worthy of a seat in that House—he would ccnsider himself
unworthy of taking part in any public debates—if, when con-
vinced of an error he did not come forward and manfully and
frankly avow it. But he considered it a very material point
that a question which distracted public councils to such an ex-
tent should have a settlement, especially when no injury could
arise to any of the great public interests of the country from
its being done.—(Hear, hear.) When they looked
to their colonial possessions—their Indian empire—they
must see how desirable it was to their interests that these
measures should pass, and that energy should be imparted to
the executive Government. He would not have vo'ed in
suppoi t of the Minister on the sato plea of the necessity of
a settlement, if he were not eilittbeed that these measures
might bs passed without detrimelle to the public interests.-..
( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary
for the War Department, made use of a term which has been
laid hold of in a sense which he did not mean it to signify ;
he said, that the agriculturists were acting under a delusion—
he meant under mistaken views. He (Mr. Ger ) perfectly
agreed with him in that opinion, for it was quite a delusion
to consider that the country would be deluged with an inun-
dation of corn. He would just state the result of his inquiries
on this subject. According to Mr. Jacob's report in Dantzic
the price of wheat averaged at forty shillings
the quarter. They should then add freightage and the
expenses of landing and lading. A friend of his stated that he
paid 4s. Bd. for freightage, Is. 4d. for insurance, and 6s. 9d.
for lading and landing, in all 12s. 9d. Another gentleman of
the highest respectability makes it 10s. At Odessa, in 1840,
wheat averaged 345. per quarter. And he had been informed
that for freightage it was usual to pay 8s 61, insurance Is. 4d.,
and lading 55., in all 14s. 10d. Another gentleman made the
extra charges amount to 15s. With regard to capital being in
those countries, or that they were progressing in agricultural
improvement, be had only to say that those countries did not
possess either capital or improved agriculture, because the facilities
for conveyance were so few and bad that capital could not be la-
vested there t and labour was wantei there, because the present was
of feudal tenure and the labourers were little better than serfs. In
Odessa matters were not better than In Dantzic, because the roads were
noi. only bad, but the corn was brought by bullocks, and they were
so scarce that very little competition need be feared from that guar-
ter for many years. it had been said that an immense Inundation ,
of corn might be expected from America ; but there was a great
want of capital in America also, and labour was very high there,
and the ciilllvation of the land not good. ( fhe lion. Member then
read a speech deiivereel at Albany, by a member of an avieultural
society, to show that the
porn crops of that State were often defl-
dent, and did not in some years average twelve bushels an acre. In
the course of the debate many allusions had been made as to what
would be the remunerative price to a farmer; and he should then
say that, In his opinion, a more difficult question coulti not be put.
for if there existed a diversity of opinion on any question, the present
a:ace:Z:7. —(Hear, hoar.) If they looked at the great int-
Provement that had taken place in agriculture, they would find that
improvement had taken place in manufactures. If
_.yd ttiook the history of the country for many years past, they would
improvement,omprt7he6ctoroeiookwawihinvesl
nah motaocotkil
rpelsa e. e in agriculture, a corres-
twiehe3r:arla This fact was evident in
uian ufactunpr,es
altigantitmoe rplsoeimiin,itiloniiiporrAtuAcry.
increased, tho two sprangbarinatiiehes were most flourishing, anti
his opinion on thttt NV, :le backed by the best authorities.
lie mentioned a remarkable Spanish people had
pursued I,37lAl:stance regariling Spain. The
their colonies, and nothing but distreisas oafiTtgetion -with respect to
sai,l Occurred. At
last new cotinStels prevailed, and a better systei
was the consequenee? Thecllonteswag .adopted. What
the
p7al6s.plalcVelstatht .a:as benefited by it. Atiutlior
people of Spain obtained great alyanta,,,,e:ommYtitri
o.st :a.l:o:l,l,;anctdfc,
liwhich was the pi
cclai con-
dition.
,ny.as,ThthisaitVeapsardiiinizic, tho
the
change, was:the
circumstance which he wouldrefer to was the great im-
provement made by tli(p_ formationtnar,,,as ofa turike roads. When
they were first talked great
landa,ppratensiir that
serious loss to
they would be a
t extent, as Adam smith 154,1 shown,
twileelylbtkahndeoyin"wooltag atdo vt:tssi,:laae
Inj lu
;,181_
,of those lands which it had been sup-
posedßut he would now revert to the
measure would 4ff'cf flip polgtion of the
tll6 Way 14 Which
the
t 1 t with high prices there were alefeve
which hut! 911011Pti in this debate, viz.,
It ha Peftn asserted la
most important point wh
poor.
a but he believed, that if the times were
taken from long Period- ; - • ,;‘,O of greats scarcity they had
high wages. 81.101 migpt be the case if the estimates were tO be
4kett when there had been
ij.e thought it would
be better to take tide years as they eth;_e., and he
always preyed periods of greatPe ditstf,lielasisos
found that in 1795, when tin harvest vas
crop was better, it Was
been 61. 6s. per quarter. 17711,
v4°7l then bad sir quality, aPd
,565. a quarter. In 1797, the corn ha W.deedflC-iceancut, that wheat 110
799 heat had risen
and tlie stoat WI keen so kept down, t
defteient, in qiiantity;- it had risen
icuolsiderwably in Vide,

to 925. 7d. a quarter. In 1800, when the harvest had been ex-
tremely bad, it was up as I.igh as 10.55. per quarter. And in 1801,
when the same harvest still continued deficient, it had risen to 108 s.,
and bread was as high as Is. 1034 d. the four-pound loaf. The corn-
law had no advantage to those for whose benefit it had been
established. It could not be possible to name a period in whirls
greater fluctuation in prices had taken place than from 1814 down
to the present time. Ile fully agreed in the sentiments expressed
by the Right Lion. - Gentleman the Secretary at War. The
corn-law had not worked so well as many Hon. Gentle-
men supposed for the welfare of the agriculturists.
Let them consider how the shipping interest had been
Influenced by it. Nothing was so injurious to that interest as great
fluctuation in prices. Under a corn-law they had sudden demand for
foreign corn, which brought sudden demand for shipping. Freightage
of course rose, and the shipowners got great profits, but the moment
a variation in price took place, then the demand for shipping ceased,
and a very considerable loss was sustained. It should be
the object of the Government, when they reflected on the
poverty of their fellow-countrymen, to extend the means of
supplying them with the necessaries of life, by permitting
corn to be imported, not only from Europe, but America.— (Hear.)
He did not believe that it was by unduly swelling any one interest
to an unnatural proportion that the well-being of the country could
be secured, but by cordially assisting to make equal laws for all, that
the symmetry and vigour of the whole State could be preserved. If
the permanent prosperity of this country was desirable, it could only
be secured by equal laws. He would, therefore, cordially support
this motion, while, at the same time, he should say that he honoured
the firmness of those who had opposed the measure from conviction.
Mr. It. A. FITZGERALD said, that until a recent period lie had
no intention of occupying a seat on the benches of that House, or
troubling Hon. Gentlemen with his opinions. However, witnessing
the awful visitation which it had pleased Providence to inflict on his
country, and dreading the consequences that might follow, he
thought it his bounden duty to attend there, and urge as far as his
humble ability would allow him, to impress on the minds of her Ma-
jesty's Ministers the necessity of taking immediate steps to prevent
the horrors consequent on pestilence in that important portion of the
British Empire.—(Hear, hear.) It was with no small gratifi-
cation he had listened to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of the Ministry the other night, and most cordially and
warmly did lie corroborate every statement made by hint —most
willingly did he concur in every opinion advanced by that Right
Hon. Gentleman ; and most grateful did he feel, also, to the Right
• Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, for the
anxiety he had evinced in bringing forward measures for the pro-
motion and encouragement of employment-- thus giving the people
of Ireland a means of providing food, of which they stood so much
in need. He regretted that teeth Right Hon. Gentlemen were ab-
sent, as he should feel a deep satisfaction in expressing to them the
feelings by which he was then actuated. But though he felt that
these measures would be proauctive of great good, yet they were not
of that comprehensive nature which the distress of the people of Ire-
land demanded. At the same time, lie had hopes, from the opinions
he had heard expressed by Hon. Gentlemen, that measures would
be brought forward as further evidences of the good inten-
tions of her Majesty's Ministers towards Ireland, and their
wish to remedy the evils that afflicted that country.—(Hear, hear.)
He was not going to answer the statements made by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Londonderry, with regard to manufactures, as he confessed
that he was better acquainted with the details respecting land.
Neither was it his wish to notice the accusation made against Messrs.
Bright and Co., as he had no doubt if that Hon. Member were in his
place he would be able to answer everything satisfactorily. With
regard to the measure now proposed, and the consideration of which
had occupied the House for so many nights past, he would say that
lie fully concurred in its principles. Ile thought that the agricul-
turists ought to have time for preparation, as the speech of the Hon.
Member for Durham had convinced him that any sudden change
would be more injurious than beneficial. Ile regretted the calaoe.
ties that had recently occurred to Ireland, and he felt sure that what-
ever happened to that country would interest England ;
but he certainly did regret that the connexion between
the nations had not been of a more cordial nature.
He would take another opportunity of expressing his opinions on
that subject. When the measure of the Right Honourable Baronet
had been first spoken of; it had excited the greatest alarm, but only
amongst his own constituents in Ireland. lie thought that the
measure was likely to be very disastrous, but the alarm was allevi-
at, d by the statement, that in that part of the Empire compensation
would be given far any injury sustained. There is no doubt that it
would be nutted, and they were quite ready to take,thein on either
side.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) When the nature, however,
of the measure was known, the whole of the alarm was im-
mediately dissipated; and the country, and he himself might
say for his coustituents especially, that they were prepared
to give their whole support to the Government. Some
Honourable Gentlemen were very much in the habit of talking of
going forward in legislation at a railroad pace. Now, he had no ob-
jection to going forward, but, at the same time, he should not like
to go downwards.— (Hear.) A steady pace forwardly would be more
for the advantage of this great empire. The position of the Irish
nation was between the two parties in that House. They conceived
that their interests were generally opposed by the party on the Mi-
nisterial side, and they usually looked upon gentlemen on his (Mr.
Fitzgerald's) side as friends. The Irish people were now placed it:
this dilemma. They were befriended by those on whom they had
been accustomed to look as enemies, and found their interests op-
posed by those whom they all along regarded as their friends. He
felt satisfied that in the vote he should give he would receive the
thanks of his constituents. lie thought that the Right Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Government had evinced great moral courage in
the part he had acted, and had shown himself worthy of that high
position which he occupied as the chief Minister of this great empire.
—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet, in the measure which he
had brought fonvard, had considered the interests of the whole
nation, and had not sacrificed those interests to the aggrandisement
of a class.—(Hear, and cheers.)
Captain LOCKHART, who was almost inaudible in the gallery,
was understood to say, that the products of this country required
moderate protection, but that one article of produce was not entitled
more than another to the exclusive advantages of protection. He
was elected a Member of that House, to represent a numerous con-
stituency on protective principles.—(Hear, hear, front the protee-
tionists)—and had heard no new principle or argument brought for-
ward which would induce him to change his opinion.—(Hear.) Ile
did not see that the House was to be called upon to repeal the
corn-laws, in order to remove a temporary evil—a simple provision
might surely be found for a remedy, without disturbing and destroy -
ing the different great existing laterests. It had been argued that
the eeperience which had been seen since 1843 fbrnisited abundant
reason for the ebandomnent of protection. He (Captain Lockhart)
was of opinion, on the contrary, that the effects of the measure of
1843 were a strong evidence in favour of the continuance of moderate
protection. It had been presumed, that when Great Britain should
set the example of free-trade, the whole world would simultaneously
follow it. Such an idea was, however, purely chimerical, and would
not be relied on. The Hon and Gallant Member having briefly
afuded to the displacement of interests which-would ensue in agri-
culture and commerce when the measure should come into fiat
operation, proceeded to say that he, had met with experienced
farmers, who were of opinion that the effect of the Bill would be to
throw much land out of cultivation. He would read a brief extract
from a letter which lie had received frotn a friend, a practical far-
mer, who was a great admirer of the Right Honourable Baronet at
the head of the Government. "If," wrote his friend, " Sir tobert
Peel succeeds in carrying his intended Corn Bill it will ruin this part
of the country. The greater portion of our inferior land will be
thrown out of cultivation, and the grass land will in a few years be-
come altogether useless." The measure opened up an alarming
prospect for Great Britain. The policy which was now being pur
sued was similar to that which ruined ancient Roine, and it was his
sincere hope that it would no longer be followed up.—(Cheers.)
Sir GEORGE CLERK, after what had falee from Hon. Members
around, would make a few observations. After the Bill had been se
fully debated, he thought it would he useless for hint further to parti-
cularise its merits ; but he would confine himself simply to its de-
fence. It had been stated that the policy of the Goverement reseived
itself Into two heads, one of which was to provide for an emergency,
and the other to construct a system. One lion. member had Sato
that it was to carry out a new system of commercial policy. it,
(Sir George Cie, k) would altogether deny that it was to carry out i
new system of commercial policy. if lilt Right Hon. Friend carne,
out this measure, it would he merely a continuance of the principle,
~Lich characterised the measure of 1842 ; or, to go further back
those principles which the Right Hon. Gentleman entertained, it
common with the late Mr. Htiskisson, in the year 1824. Even ai
that period it had been stated that the Government had run wild witl,
the notion of free trade.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He thought
that to follow the course of policy which had been pursued by
this country for the last twenty years could not be considered
as constructing a novel system of policy. As respected
the emergency of the case, he wished he could consider it as
only of a temporary nature: —(Bear, hear.) He would go a link
further forward, with respect to the dreadful fate that awaited Ire-
land, than the present time. It must be borne in mind that potatoes
will be wanted for the years 1847 and 1848 and 1849 as well as for
tee present year. The crop of the present year was so completely
destroyed that it would be impossible to furnish seed sufficient for the
next season. He had been informed In his own neighbourhood that
this disease had never been known before to have reached so exten-
sive a height as at present The answer which had been made the
other night to a question from the Hon. Member for Cockermoutli
with respect to this disease, would be a sufficient reply to
the Honourable Gentleman who talked of this matter as a
mere "temporary emergency." it was very much to be feared
that this disease would not be confined to this year, but there was reason
to apprehend that it would extend to the next and future years.
It was not to be wondered 'at, that they did not get panics to agree
on this subject of the potato rot, for it was very various in different
districts of the country ; and as gentlemen received their informa-
tion, so they held their opinions and expressed them. Bet then
was one test to which they might refer, as to what was the red;
extent of the calamity. They were' all aware that the polite(
formed a very large proportion cf the food of this metropolis,—what
then was the state of the supply of the London market? He foune
upon inquiries, that the supply during the last four months of tie
last half-3%er, ending in 1845, amounted to 770,000 sacks, whit
during the same period, from the Ist of October last to tie
14th of January, they had only 540,000 sacks, showing a titling off to
one-third of the supply to tile metropolis— (Hear, hear)—amid if a
similar inquiry were made with respect to the state of theirlarge ma-
nufacturing districts, such as Manchester and Birmingham, they
would find that the difference amounted to a much greater proportion.
Let them now look to what had been the effect of this scarcity upon
prices in London. At the end of January, 1844, potatoes by the ton
averaged from 50 shillings to 80 shillings; at the end of January
the present year they rated from 80 to IGO shillings, tht
lowest price being nearly double what it was before. The pool
people would now be driven to purchase bread for food, and it was
an ascertained fact, that in those parts of the town inhabited by the
poorer classes, the bakers that before baked but 10 sacks were now
baking 12, showing an increase in the consumption of flour of 10 per
cent. When they took these circumstances together—when they
considered the crop had not been sufficient to supply the demand lot
food—although they had been importing largely for the last six year
—when they were aware that the whole supply for Ireland wet
likely to be cut off—that there was already an increase of 10 poi
cent. on the demand for flour, amid that the reports from Yorkshire,
from whence their chief supply of potatoes came, stated that
that supply would not hold out till the month of May—
he would ask them what was the best course for the Govern-
ment to pursue? Was it not their duty to endeavour to prevent
impediments from being thrown in the way of an adequate supply of
provisions for the country.—(Loud cheers.) He should wish also
to advert to what was perfectly well known, that in consequenet
of the great variability of the season, the hervest, though
not deficient is bulk, was exceedingly so in the weight and quality in
the grain. Whet was the effect that this deficiency had Liven the
averages in last autumn, when it was of the utmost Importance ti
the country to procure a supply of foreign corn—when they knew
that the potato disease had extended over the 'whole of the country—
and when it was well known that the harvest in Europe had failed
to a very great extent, in consequence of which Holland and Bel-
gium had removed all impedimenta to the free imp elation of corn
—(Cheers.) At that very time we found that the price of
corn averaged very low, while the averages of the duty
were moving In the opposite direction, and were rapid].)
rising. No subject attracted the more anxious attention
Of the Government than these facts. They compared week by week
the quantities of corn exported with those imported, amid they fount
that the proportion of the former was very trifling. If they perceived,
however, that tile supply was not sufficient, would It not have been
their bounden duty to have opened the ports and prevented that
supply from beina:diminished by exportation ? And-in such an
emergency the Government would be justified In taking upon
themselves to open the: ports.—(flear, hear.) What was the
great argument for; the systemi of the sliding scale ? namely,
that it contained within itself a self-adjusting principle,
The Hon. Member had said a great deal of Russia, and spoke of
that country as if Great Britain derived the whole of her supply of
food from it ; but he would show the lion. Member that he was mis-
taken, and that England never did get from Russia this enormous
supply of food which he appeared to think she did. But at the period
to which the Hon. Member referred, England had a very deficient
supply, and therefore the lion. Member had to ransack the whole
world for facts upon which to support his argument. Now the fact
was, that in four years this country had received only 1,200,000
quarters of wheat front Russia. It was true that in 1840 food had
reached a famine price here, by reason of scarcity that year; but
even during that year England imported from Russia only 317,000
quarters. In fact, the Honourable Member had argued as it
Great Britain eras the only country in the world that looked to
other countries for a supply of cons in' addition to its own
resources. But he begged to tell the Hon. Member that there were
other countries besides Great Britain who received a large supply
froth Russia, and who, therefore, took off a great portion of that
supply which the Hon. Member had given England the credit of re-
ceiving. Then with regard to the United States, the lion. Member
had said that they were most fertile in the produce of corn; but he
begged to tell the Hon. Member, that from the great exteanntyofthe
population of that country, and the great increase of that population,
it was not likely that England could expect a supply to
con-
siderable amount front the United States. Ile found, by returns
which he had now before hint, that since the year 1793 Great Britain
had imported less corn from the United States than from any other
country, except in the year 1840, and even then the extra portion
trwnasitebdut very small
waing l deet In the year 1840 the population of the
000,000, and during that year ex-
ported 10,600,000 quarters of corn, which left only four bushels
per head for the whole population of the country; but
corn not being the principal article of food In the country, it was
foetid that more than e sufficient supply had been retained for the
use of the population; but in the whole of the quantity exported
very little of it came to England But even sueposing that the
argument of the Hon. Memeer was well founded, If the population
dni
even
of this country should go on increasing in the same ratio as it had for
of food for the pse of its inhabitants,
tits last few years, he doubted whether this country could obtain
ielore than a atigariuyr
sgf 1 le
that:relo,lolola otteti al sirtonh.loo)PeePl7
raoHavft
a:qi
ftaabprieeeoborpeyslemeos
returnsot
ilftiowirfoeieti
wheat
!oat
iflei3ie.oßae,dhai
year,
sbidserlyaeah
dhsithbam)odr,
ep
imported
It
been
,fee
dabunset
tknt in five
04,11.egifecnap?teptatir,ead:,o
usaaylt.l:at tAI
nd evert
should Increase te 3,000 000 a
I,citaptpilo3:l, if that import trade
year' for the next 'tee years,
the probable increase of theegipe're intotaa'khiengllon.
iNf accountmher for
it would not be an 'nv
spqen or the
various porti In 'America; but ittecilliantity of corn imported from
country and the great quantity of land kintleNktg 111?"PHP!°11 of
1;4
the effect of stopping that.
11,,
Hon.
metnebulerti n, would 'see
stated, that in the year 1837 he imported it quanftrt. Sunderland had
Atnerica, and after having, paid all expenses tie was 3:in'aflledhetaotefr°l"
at ; but iu that year the price of foreign corn was only Bell
And 14,00 c, IA) eo;ticl well understand how the lion. Member.
oddei 14140 at thett'ilri-ep:—thrill, I.erte.) 'Tise eaperienee
of all former-years had shOith. the IlOtitet hat the Inereased

sumption of any article had led to an increase of price. With
regard to the article of tea, which had been introduced
the other night by the Honourable Member for Shrevrsbury,
lie (Sir G. Clerk) felt convinced that the Hon. Member's arguments
were not sound, for if he looked at the price of tea at Canton at the
present time, and compared it with the price in the corresponding
month of 1844, he would find that tea had very much increased in
price.—(Cheers.) And then, with respect to the article of cotton,
which had also been introduced by the same Hon. Member, facts
went to show that the reductionof the duties on that article had been
followed by increased imports, and a corresponding* increase in price.
—(Hear, hear.) For his own part, he did not know where the
Hon. Member (Mr Disraeli) got the statements which he
read to the House on Friday night last about cotton.—(Hear, bear,
and laughter.) If he looked at the price of cotton at New Orleans at
the present moment, lie would find that it was sold at 6% cents, and
in some instances not lower than 9 cents per lb.—(Cheers and
laughter.) There might certainly have been a case where, from a
stagnation in trade, or some similar cause, cotton had been
sold at the low price mentioned by the Honourable Member,
hit that should not be quoted as the actual price at which
cotton was sold at almost all seasons, and in every year.—
(Hear, hear.) By the inventions of a certain gentleman in
America (whose inventions were somewhat similar to those
of Arkwright in England) cotton could certainly be sold at a much
lower rate than formerly. About fifty years ago a petition way pre-
sented to that House, by farmers residing in the neighborhood of
London, who stated that if turnpikes were introduced into the
northern parts of England, corn and other agricultural produce would
be brought at so cheap a rate to London, that their trade or interest
would be completely ruined.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) They also
stated that labour was much cheaper in the northern parts of
England, that it would be impossible to compete with the northern
agriculturists. In the year 1787, when Mr. Pitt proposed
to repeal the laws restricting the Importation of Irish corn, the
greatest alarm took place. Members representing the western parts
of Scotland stated that if such a measure were passed, the agricul-
ture of Scotland would be ruined. Members also representing dif-
ferent parts of Ireland pretested against the passing of such a mea-
sure. But what was the fact ? From year to year since that
period the agriculture of Scotland had been continually prospering,
and lie would venture to say that in no part of the three kingdoms
was agriculture in so prosperous a state as it was in Scotland at the
e
present moment—(lcer, hear)—and yet the measure when proposed
in 1787 created almost as much alarm as did the present measure of
her Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The House
would bear in mind that in the year 1820 a petition was presented to
that House by all the principal merchants in London, praying the
House to remove all restrictions from the commerce of the country.
Lord
grveen:tinneun number of measures which had for their object the removal of pro-
ecieidaatnidons at
and
de head
thdo the
introduce G o a
Go-
vernment,
on the importation of linen and other articles. Great alarm was
Liverpool,act dweuh upon
o nwatisio thense
rel Lemin
occasioned by the proposal. Several Irish Members protested against
the measure, on the ground that the linen manufacturers and all in
their employ would be completely ruined ; and the Hon. Member for
Lancashire at that time no doubt spoke to the same effect. But the
fact was, that at the present time the linen manufacture was in a
prosperous state. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had for-
gotten that powerful speech which had been made by his friend the
Right lion. Baronet at the head of the Government—
(Loud cheering) when he made his statements. (Hear,
hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet had shown
that the linen manufactures of Ireland, particularly itt the
neighbourhood of Belfast, were in a most prosperous state.—(Hear,
hear.) He showed that from year to year, since the measures of Lord
Liverpool, the linen interest of Ireland had been continually im-
proving, and the result was that they were now able to compete—the
manufacturers of Ireland were able to compete with those of France
and Britain.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. afember for Birmingham
had stated that the zinc trade had materially suffered by rens..
tee reoesafee of prohibiting duty on th.st bs.s ue (Sir George
Clerk) should confess that he was astonished at the statement, and
could not imagine how he made out Iris case.—(Hear, hear.) The
price of zinc at one period was 751. per ton, and the duty 451. per
:on. Now it should be admitted , that zinc was an article of recent
origin, but since the duty was removed the trade in that article had
vastly increased. Therefore, by the reduction of the duty on that
article alone, a new manufacture sprung up, and em-
ployment was given to additional hundreds of the la-
bourers of the country; whereas, had the prohibitory duty been
continued, those persons must hare remained without employment.—
(Hear, hear.) In the years 1843 and 1844, the quantity of zinc im-
ported was 7,000 tons, half of which was again exported to India
and Chhia, and in the last year the quantity imported was 12,000
tons, not more than 2,000 tons of which had beesn exported. Now,
could there be a clearer proof given of the value of the article, inde-
pendent of the vast benefit it afforded to the numerous operatives and
labourers engaged about it ? (Hear, hear.) Now, as regarded the
silk manufactures, he could say that they had more than doubled
since the duty was taken off them. In the month of Fel,ruary, 1842,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the reduction of the duty
on raw silk, when objection was taken to the immediate introdue-
tien of the measure ; but as regarded the feeling of the House, it was
unanimous on the matter,
and the question was carried
on the 7th of March in the same year. Honourable Mem-
hers will find that the most successful method of
' increasing their revenue is by removing high prohibitory duties.
That opinion is fortified by the experience of the last twelve years.
We have been removing duties upon French goods, as well as the
goods of other countries. He would meution a few articles upon
which the duty had been wholly or in part taken off—
French silks, gloves, flax, and cambric, clover-seed, and linseed.
the Honourable Baronet then went on to state that he was
as anxious as any Member of that House that the landed aris-
tocracy should maintain their proud position, but if that existence
depends upon the corn-laws, he really trembled for it.—(Laughter.)
If he understood rightly the arguments of the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury, he seemed to maintain that the preponderance of pro-
tection should be given to the landed proprietors of this country, in
order to maintain landed interest. The Hon. Baronet, whose speech
throughout was almost inaudible in the gallery, concluded by saying
that the agricultural party would best consult their interest and the
interest of their constituents by consen ing to a spee,'y settlement of
this question, which cannot long be protracted, and which may now be
settled under very different circumstances t tan those which will not fail
to accompany it if delayed to a longer period, and considered that these
measures, if passed, would tend to consolidate the interest of the
country, and place its institutions upon a firmer foundation.
Mr. MUNTZ rose to explain. lie stated that he never expressed
an opinion in opposition to the reduction of the duty on speller. He'
used upwards of 1,500 tons of zinc in his own business, and he could
:eat, therefore, consider it anything but a boon thus to reduce the
Mr. LIDDEL stated that the Hon. Baronet who had just sat down
hail made one of the boldest assertions which it had ever been his lot
to hear from any one who sat upon the benches along with the Hon.
Baronet.—(Hear, hear.) At the beginning of his speech, the llon.
Baronet startled the House by stating that there had been no change
in the policy of her Majesty's Ministers.—(" Hear, hear," from
the protectionists.) Why, then, did they go before the
country in the year 1841 ?—(Hear, hear.) Why did they protest be-
;ore their constituents against the change proposed by the Noble
Lord the Member for the city of London ?—(Hear, hear.) What
were the three articles upon which the Noble Lord proposed to
make that change—that change which is admitted to be a more
udicious one than the measure at present proposed. If no change had
taken place, why, he would ask once more, is the No'sle Lord and
its friends upon the Opposition benches ?—(" Hear, hear," from Col.
llbtliorp.) Wily is the Noble Lord, the Secretary fee* Ireland (Lord
Lincoln), agaia before his constituency, and to all appearance likely
to be rejec ed by them? Why have many Noble Lords and Hon.
Gentlemen resigned their seats, acknowledging their responsibilities
to their constituency ? He must say that he ha' never heard any-
thing more startling than the assertion that the measure now pro-
posed by the Government was a natural consequence of the
measures and principles which they had adopted for the last few
ears.—(clear, and laughter.) Then there was another propo-
sition in the Right Hon. Baronet's speech. namely, that we should
`,e called upon to give a-reason for opposing thisaneasure. These rea-
sons are already provided for 118 ; we have only to look at the opinions
of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head 0, her. Majesty's Government
-o find our limits to justify us in our opposition.- (Boar, hear.) On the
.sintrary, the converse ought to have been the case. We have a right
call upoff Hon. Members of the Cabinet for reasons why they
should alter their past policy—to inform us of the means
iv which they had been induced to alter their course of policy, and
adopt that which they now recommended. The Hon. Member then
went on to state that if no important changes should take place in
the price of bread, what becomes of the argument which is so con-
stantly used to excite the public against us ?—(Hear, hear.) Telling
the populace what bold impiety it is to make dear the price
,f bread which God Almighty has given to the poor. What
aecomes of this argument, if the expectations held out
with reference to those important changes should not be realised ?
(Hear, hear.) lie would now drop any further reference to the
speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, who had just sat down, and he
would now allude to the statement made by the Right Hon. Baronet
it the head of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) In that speech there
were some fallacies and some inaccuracies, which, with the per-
mission of the House, he would allude to.— (Hear, hear.) That
speech might be very properly divided into three heads—the first
part contained a statement of the direct causes width had led to the
recent change of opinion on the part of the Government. The
second part mitered into au explanation of the course which the
Government intended to adopt, to meet the state of things which
led to that change of opinion. The third Part enumerated various
facts and instances of the success which had attended the relax-
ation of prohibitory dullest, and which circumstance was an en-
,aeuragement to the Right Honourable Baronet to proceed still
nrther in that course of policy.—(Hear.) The first part of the
speech had been so ably treated by different Members on that side of
,he House since the debate commenced, that it was altogether unne-
,essary for him to allude to it.—(Hear, hear.) Tke Hon. Member
or Devonshire had proved that the causes alleged for such an altera-
ion were inadequate, and the reneniies proposed were insufficient.—
(Hear, hear.) He would not, therefore, detain the House with any
ibservations on that point. He did not hesitate to say, that with
:egard to the silk trade, there had been an over-amount or excess
-of legislative protection. lie considered, however, that when the
eight Hon. Baronet proposed to adkore to a protectivv duty of 151.
er cent. ad valorem, on silk, lace, and other articles of manufac-
ure, he did not see why he felt called upon to abandon the principle
reference to corn. The Right Hon. Baronet proposed to reduce
'he duty on foreign timber from 255. to 15s_, with a view, no doubt,
.0 afferd a better supply to the consumer. Now, with regard to the
lintished cost of timber, it was fair to take into calculation the trade
.f the past year, when partly from the late judicious revision of those
tunes, a depression had taken place in the price, and the advan•
..age of this reduction went into the pocket of the consumer.
If the interests of the British public were thus involved, the peti-
loners expressed their concern that the greater part, if not all, of
the increased importation 'tom the Baltic would fall into the hands of
the foreign shipowner. and the foreign producer would receive as the
'ieneflt. 'that point brought him to the utter incapacity of the Bri-
tish shipowner to compete with the foreigner. And what was the
reason? He would call the attention of the House to the
,omparative expense of building a British ship in the
Baltic. He took' the facts from the evidence taken before
lie Committee on British shipping appointed the year before last,
uld which showed the relative cost of navigating a British and a foreign
ship on a three months' voyage. The wages for working a British ship
,Or three months amounted to 1691. 10s., and the wages ofa Prussian
ship for the same period and of the same tonnage, was rather more
.hams 811., being a difference of rather more than 881. in favour of the
Prussian ship. With regard to the cost of provisions—the cost of
netualling a British ship for a three months' voyage was 961., and
he cost tinder the same head for a Prussian ship was only 391..
icing a difference of 501. in savour of the Prussian ship, or 140 per
-eat. in favour of the Prussians. So much for the costs of navigation
Ind victualling. But he would now call their attention to the ques-
ion of ship-bullding, and he would ask whether those who looked to
the British shipowners for the carriage of articles could quarrel with
die high rate of freight. They agreed to that addition of prices,
'remise their own safety was secured by it, and, In the words of
Attain Smith, he would say, " of all the restrictive policy In the his-
tory of this country, I am compelled to say that the navi-
4ation-laws are the most justifiable as national security
s preferable to commercial produce." In the port of London the
wages of shipwrights have not varied for the last 25 years, and that
airlous fact was caused by the combination existing between the
!arpenters and the shipwrights. At Toulon the shipwright's wages,
is stated in the official es,rte 'rein the t `rench Government,
amounted to a franc and a half per day, and in our dockyards at the
iresent moment the shipwright's wages were 4s. 6d. per day. The
'lweign ships could be built for 5/. or 6/. per ton, and such ships were
superior to the vessels built at Sunderland for 101. per ton.
A first-rate British ship, built in the Thames at a cost of 161. per
ton, when quite ready for sailing, would cost 21/. per ton. Atter
this- statement, he would ask the House whether the protection to
the British shipowner could enable them to compere with the
shipping from the Northern ports? Could it be possible for them to
•ontend against such advantages unless they brought down the
wages of the British shipbuilder to the miserable level of the
Continental shipowners?—(Cheers from the Ministerial side.)
They were asked by the Right Honourable Baronet
whether they were to advance or to retreat. They Blight
make a step in advance if they reduced the wages of the labourer,
hut they would deteriorate the condition of the nation, and he
thought that such a step would be a retrogade movement, and no
advancement. But to pursue the subject with regard to foreign
timber. What were the returns of the British and foreign trade from
1842 to 1844 ? The total amount of British tonnage entered inwards
from Norway and Sweden was 109,382 tons, and the foreign
timber entered in the same period (the year 1842) amounted
to 341,533 tons. In the year 1844 the foreign tonnage
Advanced considerably in amount, as did also the British. In that
year the British tonnage advanced to 150,000 tons, and the foreign
timber to 520,000 tons, so that in the two years the British ship-
ping engaged in the foreign trade increased by 20,000 tons, or 19 per
cent. on the whole, while the foreign shipping in the same period
cent. on the first
increased to the extent of 187,189 tons, or 54 per c
amount of 350,000 tons. The result of this would be, that British
shipowners would be driven away by this unequal competition, and
the trade in the Baltic timber would fall into the hands of the fo-
reigner. This was the argument of the shi„esener, who was not
= desirous of raising prices but of lowering them. The Right Hon.
Baronet had made one or two errors in Ills statement. lie had said
that it would not be believed that at that moment there
fit
not t
for building
one
ton of Baltic timber in the. port of Liverpou i
a fast-rate twelve years' ship, so
they would see
was held.
the estimation ia which the Baltic
timber
timber, and the
So much for that part of the question relating :
prayer of the petition of the shipowners that had been laid upon the
table. Intimately mineefed with this question was that of the
.
colonial trade. On this point lie would details the House for a few
minutes, lie would begin with the case of South Australia, and he
would call the attention of the Right Hon. Baronet to a notice which
t t had appeared respecting the state of this colony in tLo publicbyri Ins
a few claY3 ago, It referred to a petition last year b
Honourable Member of that House, touching
the question of
a free importation of Australian corn. It was
but it was opposed by the Right Honourable Baronet on theasked as a boon,
occasion, and lie (Mr. Liddel) after the arguments which the Right
ne des, could not een-
Hon. Baronet had laid down respecting the Ca . a
similar footing.
ceive how lie could oppose Awing Australia
e
The statement In question represented the progress
doting the last five years, including
1840
and 1845, and it showed
l of the colony
the number of acres in cultivation in the different years. In 1840
503 ; but in four ye
the number of acresundercultivation was only 2,•
e I ,4 graai4seincieaL after it was 6,69,5. 1311 was the yeg. w'i4`"
man4d for produce, and
of cuitlvalleff took place, arising, from the ee----
was remarked that
the high price which it bore in the market. It
1* in those years when prices were low, comparatively little
lyland was
brought under cultivation, in fact, in some instances it decreased, while
ttn increase of price brought with it an increase in cultivation. If,
as expected by the measure of the Government, ecceriling to the
sense Jule which fled be,,si found to onerlfte in 'Peat ,
retie prices fell
in Greet( Britain, then land must go out of cultivation.—(Loud orieB

As side the House had asserted that their party was broken up by
the conduct of the Right lion. Baronet ; but the array of talent
and unanimity which they had manifested showed that that
assertion was without foundation He could not give
his assent to the doctrines of, the agriculturists. lie heel ever
regarded the corn-laws as of mere accidental and temporary opera-
tion. He had never seen anything else in it, but as the mere means—
pethaps the useful means—of educating the agriculturist of this
country so as to enable him to compete with the foreigner.—(Bear,
hear.) And when he saw at that moment that that end was so far
accomplished—when he looked at what he might call the chemical
agricultural changes which had lately developed themselves, seeing
the increased improvement with respect to tile draining, and all those
other ad .antagts which had so rapidly developed themselves, he did
feel that it was but just to say, that the corn-laws should be changed.
He had always been anxious to modify the present system, but he
could never disabuse himself of the idea that a total repeal of the
corn-laws would be attended with a great displacement of pro-
perty. But, nevertheless, he could pursue no other course of con-
duct, in reference to the measure, than that which he had ever ob-
served. The produce of America had been alluded to by several
Hon. Gentlemen, but corn might be flourishing in the valley of the
Mississippi and the people of England not be able to procure it. If
these changes should take place suddenly, he had no doubt but
great suffering would be occasioned. The difference in price in com-
petition between the English and foreign farmer should be distri-
buted somewhere, between the landlord, the 'tenant, and the la-
bourer. It was contended that a large proportion would fall upon the
labourer, but he did not believe that such would be the fact.—(Hear.)
The worst that could happen would be that the labourer would be
left where lie now was.—(hear, hear.) He had somehow or other
imbibed the notion that there was far more equality on the subject
of wages • between the labourers of England and those of the
Continent, than is generally supposed.—(Hear, hear.) There
was something in the question, of which political economy could
hardly take account. Wages depend in a great measure upon
the physical capabilities of tile labourer. He had heard that gentle-
men employed upon the continental railways were ready to give half,
as much again to the English labourer as to the French, provided
they will not get drunk.— (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Compare the
Frenchman, with his nightcap en, and stopping every five mi.
nutes to speak —compare such conduct with the hard, steady work
of the English labourer. We need not fear competition in this
respect. The labourers would not be the immediate sufferers in this
case. He considered that the labourers derived advantage
from their contiguity to the large manufacturing districts.—
(Hear, hear.) They tended to raise the price of labour, not Only
in their own neighbourhood, but also throughout the whole Country.
The tenant-farmers, he believed, would come worst off by the pro-
posed alterations. At present they were, by the consolidation farms
and other causes, subjected to a great many evils, and these would be
aggravated by the repeal of the laws relative to agricultural protection.
He believed that the land was not at present let at its
due value, for if it were higher, he considered that the
consequence of the abolition of protection would be
more seriously felt. The landlords would, in the larguage
of the Right Hon. Baronet be exposed to the temptation of becoming
mere naanufactarers of food.—(Hear, hear.) That was a point on
which he could not change, pr his mind acquire additional experi-
ence. The landlords were exposed to a very great temptation which
he believed they would overcome ; but to which they ought
not to have been exposed. He believed they would resist that
temptation. They would consent to make some sacrifice of power and
convenience rather than lay the burden on those who were dependent
upon them. To do that, to overcome that temporary difficulty, they
must exchange their present splendid benevolence for another and a
more useful class, and must consent to employ more protective means.
Their wealth was considerable. The proof of that was, that a great
portion of it was spent in amusement and accomplishments. It
they were ready to make the sacrifice that was detnanded of them,
all would go well. It was possible that many early associations
might be interfered with. Let the landlord maintain the
civil adsomethvantages in their possession, and although they might
lose ing, they would shortly regain their prosperous condition,
and remain the great bulwarks of the peace and perm:menet), or
the fluctuating fortunes of this great empire.
were
eHthEe7l
drpoosbedtaionf,edallelaciviehetonboriunseg
The
ee
On the motion of Lord INGESTRE, the debate was adjourned.
JOINT-STOCK BANKS IN SCOTLAND AND IRELAND.
ethereiA N C
orders rLo°fßt hoefdtahye
in a Bill for the regulation of Joint-Stock Banks in Scotland and
Ireland.
adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.