The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-08 00:00:00

GROUP XI

The Committee assembled at the usual hour this morning, Mr
Henley, chairman.

AIRDRIE{ AND DATZIGA.TE JUNCTION,

AND EDINBIT,FLGIK AND BATIIGATZ.

The time of the Committee was occupied the entire day in Being
through the several clauses of these two Bills, all of which were
agreed to.

The Committee at its rising adjourned until Monday, the 25th Ina

GROUP VIII.

'The Committee met to-day at twelve o'clock, Sir W. Clay in the
m
. Members present, Earl Jermyn, Lord Shelburne, Mr. Cur-
tets, and Mr. T. Ainsworth.
GLASGOW. DUNEPILIES, AND CARLISLE.
The evidence on behalf of this
line
was
resumed'
for constructing the line. and briefly examined on the estimates
Mr. Miller, civil engincer,lienxettnined.—lle agreed with the evi-
dence of Mr. Blythe. The
ysvas laid down in the best way to
snit the convenience of the coungtrros.s
reliceei estimated the of
, the Ayrshire Company
the line at 33 per cent. on-the
agreeing to work it at the rate. The ?Intl, by this arrangement
incouldents. be worked more economically than by independent arrange:
Cross-examined by Mr. Horn—He calculated In the arrangements
he proposed that the whole scheme would be traversed four times
six passenger carriages to each
i
each way daily, with about
lie could not give the average width of the line throughout. tr'arihe
se:teme was substantially the same as last year, only shorter at each
end, a portion having been cut off at Cumnock and Carlisle. Last
year the line was classed as a competing, line with the Caledonian
ItallWay, but it was so classed against his will. He then admitted that
the Dumfries line would take passengers as expeditiously as the Cale-
donian line, and, therefore, that the former was the one that ought
to be made. The Committee, however, did not adopt this view, as it
was considered the Caledonian was better for national objects, as di-
rectly connecting the north with the south. The Caledonian scheme,
if perfected, he admitted would give all the advantages of the present
slieine, with the exception of the portion between Cumnock and
Dumfries.
The Cnainsratr asked if the promoters had any traffic tables to
put in, chewing the receipts expected from the different parts of the
line ; that was the expected traffic on the Dumfries and Cumnock
portion, the Carlisle and Dumfries portion, and the two branches
separately ?
Mr. TALBOT said they were sot prepared with those tables at
present, but should the Committee not be satisfied with the evidence
already given, they hail more witnesses to call, who would furnish
the details.

Mr. CocZBtTZN said that the case of the promoters had been placed
before the Committee on the supposition of there being sufficient
local traffic to warrant the construction of the line. It had been
brought forward on itsown merits. That there was such traffic as was
alleged, lie, on behalf of the Caledonian Company, totally denied, and
maintained that the Dumfries line could not be worked without taking
away a considerable portion of the Caledonian traffic, to the great
prejudice and loss of that company. It had been proved that year
that the through traffic would be more than sufficient to pay for the
eenstruction of one line, and give a fair interest in the capital in.
vested by the latter company.
The CHAIRMAN was of opinion that if the promoters of the Cale-
donian scheme considered that their case materially depended on the
question of local traffic, and that the company on the Dumfries line
must depend on the taking away a portion of the Caledonian through
traffic,deue then the Committee would order the room to be cleared and
upon the point raised as to the detailed traffic tables being
furnished.
Mr. TALBOT had not the slightest
plying further evidence on local objector whatever to sop-
require it, but he was not then preparedtraffic should the Committee
re-
quired. If time was given the tal . with tables to the effect
beevgidotenrceead, yw,hiancdh,inwtihtiei meantime lie would go on with the further
that already given, the tables would he founded.
Mr. COCKBURN trusted the tables would furnish precisely the par-
ticular sources from which traffic was expected, as he maintained
there was no loc tl traffic to warrant the construction
iolf such a line,
a ni
and that if it were formed it would only lead to
OuS compet*-
lion between the two companies, that would end in an amalga
*lon. in which, from the double capital invested, would lead to
ratesi
'''.
by which -the public interest would be sacrificed. Ile hoped the
tables would be furnished by to-morrow morning, as the whole case
at issue depended on the question of traffic under consideration.
After some further conversation pro and con. to the same effect, it
NM' arranged by the Committee, in compliance with Mr. Cockburn's
application, that tables or the details of traffic should be made out, to
be supplied in the morning, and that, in the mean time, evidence
mktit be taken as to the points on which the tables would Do based.

GROUP XVIII.

SOMEN,SETSEIRE MIDLAND.
This Committee resumed its sittings this morning, at 12 o'clock,
Mr. B. Denison in the chair.
Mr. Sergeant KINGLAHE commenced by cress-examining Mr. Hill,
the engineer. On his cross-examination, Mr. Hill admitted that an
original prospectus, stating the capital of the Company to be 150,0001.,
and describing the proposed route of the railway, which was then
surveyed to a considerable extent, had been published without his
sanction or authority, before the line was surveyed by him, or any
estimates made of the probable expense. He could not remember
going into any details with reference to the amount of earth-work or
the number of bridges. He merely walked over the line far two days.
The only report that be made to the directors with reference to this
preliminary survey was, that the sum of 320,0001. (the sum proposed
by the directors), would be rather a low sum, as the gradients and
cuttings would be severe. In the estimates before the Committee he
had estimated the total amount of earthwork at 1,590,194 cubic
yards ; of this quantity there were 154,525 cubic yards of limestone
cutting, at 3s. 6d. per yard; 98,560 yards of freestone at 3s. ; 204,020
yards of a mixture of freestone and marl at Is. 6d. per
yard ; of hard clay there would be 242,465 yards at is. 3d ;
marl mixed with gravel and stones at Is. 4d. per yard ;
there would be 290,215, and 292,579 yards of common earth
which he had estimated at Is. 2d. per yard. He had made six
borings, in order to determine the several kinds of earthwork. The
slopes would not be more than Ito 1. There were six miles of an
ascending gradient of a bad character. He did not know of any
existing railway with a worse gradient considering the length ; there
was a descending gradient of three miles of 1 in 104.

Captain Moroson, R.N., was then examined on behalf of the pro-
moters. He knew several lines where the gradients were more
severe than the present one. The Hartlepool Railway had a gradient
of one in thirty for two miless in length. There would be no
danger if proper care were taken in working a single line. He
was acquainted with the working of the Taff Vale Railway, which
was a single line of rails. He did not consider it absolutely ne-
cessary to the safe working of the line that there should be an
electric telegraph along it. He had estimated the cost of con-
struction at about 20,0001. less than the estimates of Mr. Hill, and
could obtain responsible parties to complete the works for the sam
which he had estimated.
_ _

Mr. Miller, C.E., had examined the sections of the line. He did
not think, although of an inferior character, that they would be of
serious inconvenience. He was working a line himself with a gra-
dient of one in forty-two, and found no difficulty.
Mr. Lewis, a contractor for the construction of railways, proved
the general accuracy of the estimates of earth and bridge work fur-
nished by the engineer.

Mr. Burge, a contractor, also proved the same, and would be
very happy to undertake the contracts on the terms mentioned in
the estimates.
Colonel Coles, a magistrate in Somersetshire, and a director of the
company, was the next witness called, who proved that the directors
had endeavoured, as much as possible, to meet the wishes of Mr.
Somerville by changing the route of the railway, he being a peti-
tioner against the Bill.
This witness closed the case of the promoters.
The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow at twalre.

GRUP XXX.
This Committee re-assembleOd to-day at the tonal hour. Present,
Lord Charles Wellesley (chairman), and the other Members.

AYLESBURY AND TEAME ACTION
RAILWAY.

Mr. W. Clarke, examined by Mr. Wims—Carried on business as a
carrier and farmer at Luton. There was no traflc of any importance
east or west to Oxford and Cambridge.
Cross-examined by Mr. WADDINGTOX—Th4 railway from Cam-
bridge to Oxford would not injure him.
Mr. E. Chase, examined by Mr. WlLLs—Viras a surgeon, residing
at Luton. Knew that Mr. Byce and other large plait manufacturers
were of opinion that this line (the Cambridge and Oxford) would do
no good to the town.

Mr. WADDINGTON cross-examined this vritness—Was not aware
that Mr. Byce was a member of the provisional committee of the
Oxford and Cambridge Railway. Did not know that several influ-
ential gentlemen of the town were members also.
Mr. Francis Field was examined by Mr. CaLcaarr, and corrobo-
rated the testimony of the preetding witness.
Mr. J. Bartztun, examined by Mr. CALCRAFT—Was a straw-plait
manufacturer at Dunstable, and was brought in contact with Bir-
mingham, London, and other large towns. None of his description
of manufacture went to Cambridge or Oxford, and the opinion of
the people of Dunstablet was decidedly against the railway between
these towns.
After hearing some further evidence to the same effect, the Com-
mittee adjourned at four o'clock till to-morrow.

GROUP XXXVII.
The Committee met at twelve o'clock yesteiclay; Lord Seymour in
the chair.
SEETPILLD AND MANCHESTER (BARNS-

LEY JUNCTION).
The examination was continued of witnesses to show the traffic
likely to be made by the accommodation offered by the line passing
over the coal-field, when Messrs. Jeffcock, Brown, and Rhodes gave
'evidence similar to what was elicited yesterday.
Mr. Lee, resident engineer on the Sheffield and Manchester, stated
in his examination that the length of the Barnsley branch was
nearly eleven miles, and that it started from the. Sheffield and
Manchester line, 29 miles from Manchester, through a junction with
the ?Midland Railway to Barnsley. There were two tunnels of 500 yards,
and 440 yards on this branch, and the gradients were rather steep, being
one in 95 for 8% miles, rising towards Pennystone, there being a
difference of 515 feet in height between the two ends of the line and
overcome in something more than 10 miles; bat the natural line of
the country was such that a line to the west could not be laid out with
more favourable gradients. The estimate was 330,0001. for the whole
expenses of the completion of the line, which he considered would be
valuable as a through line between Manchester and Goole and Hull.
In giving his evidence on the Worsborough branch, Mr. Lee stated
that this was a branch from the Barnsley Junction, nearly 5 miles in
length, terminating at Worsborough-bridge. The gradients on this
branch would be heavy by going down lower than they did on the
main line, so that there would be a gradient of 1 in 60 for 3 miles, and 1
in 100 for the remainder, and with heavy trains they would require
an assistant engine. There was one tunnel on the line 990 yards
long. The estimate for the branch, including land and all other ex-
penses would be 150,0001. In answer to a question about the ad-
ditional expense of working a line with steep gradients, the witness
stated that on the Sheffield and Manchester line, where there was a
,gradient of one in 100, the cost of locomotive power was 6d. per
running mile, which was one penny less than it was in Lancashire.
Mr. Locke, the engineer, gave evidence corroborative of the pre-
vious witness. Be believed that a junction between the Sheffield
and Manchester and the North Midlands would be one of the most
important lines in existence of the same length, and that no ether
locomotive line would effect this but the line to Barnsley—a town
which had a great deal of traffic, and mostly to the westward, which
had been, altogether neglected by the existing lines of railway.
This finished the evidence for the present scheme.
The Committee arranged on taking the Midlands branch to-thicar
to-morrow, and then adjourned.

GROUP XL. - -
LEEDS AND YORK RAILWAY.

The Committee resumed this day. Mr. Stafford O'Brien (chair-
man), Lord Norreys, Mr. Bright, Mr. Sheridan, and Mr. Dugdale
took their seats at twelve o'clock.
Mr. Cope's crass-examination by Mr. HILDYAII.I) was continued—

He stated that the North Midland Company were not aware uni
the third week of the •tservations ha was making, when they dis.
missed some of his men. If a train professed to start at a certain hour,
and arrived at its terminus a quarter of an. hour later, Mr.
Cope set this down as a quarter of an hour lost. There was no frost
during these three weeks of observation, as far as hie memory served
him.

Mr. lIILDTARD endeavoured to invalidate this witness's statement
with regard to loss of time on the North Midland, by affirming that
the returns given in by the witness did not tally with Itradshaw's
tables of the same date. The Ist of April was taken as an example,
on which day Mr. Cope allowed 9 hours 19 minutes for
seven trains from York to Leeds. The Learned Counsel did
not, however, controvert this fact, but maintained that the time
advertised by the Company for starting meant only the time when
the doors were closed. Witness, however,. urged that even that was
no excuse for the Company's not delivering their freight at the time
they advertised. • Witness further begged to correet a statement he
made yesterday. lie had stated that the traffic on the Wetherby
line was 50 per cent. greater than on the Tedeaster line. Ile now
begged to say that it was 100 per cent. greater.
Mr, 1111,nvean closely questioned the witness as to the amount of
traffic between York and Wetherby, and as to the means of convey-
ance, whether by public carriers, or by private waggons, but witness
having obtained his information through agents, would not
give any evidene on the point. The traffic between Wethcrby
and York he estimated at alsout 3501. • between Wetlierby and
Leeds at about 1,2501. 2,550/. as the whole revenne from traffic
of goods between York and Leeds; 5,5251. as the result derivable
front cattle. 78,604 persons pass between Wetherby, York, and
Thorp. Arch.
Mr. Sergeant W'msurs.having put a question or two that were
answered to his satisfaction,
Mr. Cope stated, M reply to Mr. iIAZDY, that 138,4641. might very
fairly be assigned as the total amount of trails between Leeds and
York by way of Wetherby.

Mr, BAINE3 called Mr. James, superintendent of police in the
Borough of Leeds, who gave evidence corroborative of the alleged
delays on the York and North Midland. He hid latterly sent wit-
nesses by coach at assize time to-susure their attendance.
To Mr. HILDYARD —Witness admitted that he was a shareholder in
the Leeds and York Railway, He had known the Court to be delayed
for hale-an-hour.

.To Mr, E 0 STN. bo' . .--
na;lero. buvaithatmedantheeseiviirlreeigiguilnaereriticiso.
N --Witness said that an additional train would
Patty, was next' called by Mr. Baines,
o f
To
0...1i professionalriliiti lices,lb'ourtk
ills td
A"
character,Ttivetle:Thiadn
motitted that by the powers of the
mute with the Leeds and Brad-
ford, with wiatttit Ports Bill
Midland. with Leeds and Church Fenton,
nor, indeed, with any of the linesintheilitch Mr. Hudson was inte-
t entertained the idea of such
rested, although he had originally
junctions.
uons
;Lovett]) now submitted to the Committee
, inasrn
that thl,Landmasisi-t
Mon ought to prove fatal to the Bill before them,
proved that the hue was not laid out in the best way for the public
benefit.r. 13 Mr. AINEs urged, on the contrary, that his Learned Friend was
tamina buttleat otf ke witness.
boundlur.
utompeoyolnawr. itdihdhnois
terorejectxo this, distinctly intimated that
he by no means waived the objection he had ke 11
d,O
ia, t:adgaadi
rdi ertel ,1 that
he should, on the termination of his cross-exantialn,a
the sense of the Committee ontehecpoominintihtteeheat,iehrsaving
of time that
Mr. ALEXANDEIt urged on the
might be effected if they would give their decision onte shaailt raised
by his Learned Friend Mr. Hildyard, as, otherwise, he
upon a lengthened cross-etarnination of the witness on behalf orNtler
Fountain Wilson, as would also his Learned Friends, Mr. Sergeant
Wilkinsey
were aenndgal‘gfre.d.Knowles, en behalf of the Companies for whom
Mr. BAINEs submitted that the line was the best of the three before
the Committee, and wished to call Mr. Cubitt to prove this fact.
Mr. HILDYARD, to save the time of the Committee, was ready to
admit that this was the best line of the three, but contended that,
even after This admission, the point must still be decided against Mr.
Baines, by the admission of Mr. Bateman, that the line was not so
good as it might have been.
Mr. ilildyard continued to address the Committee for some time
• IS the subject, and was followed by
gr. KrrowLEs, who, as the representative of large landed proprie-
tors, had Important interests to protect. The Learned Gentleman
maintained that the interests of private individuals were not to be
sacrificed to a scheme which was imperfect through a feeling of

Jealousy towards Mr. Hudson.
Mr. ALEXANDER next addressed the Committee, on behalf of Mr.
Fountain Wit-on, in a similar strain to that of the Learned Counsel
who had preceded him.
Mr. Sergetoit WILKINS opposed the objection raised by Mr. Hil lyard.
and added that if the admission of Mr. Hildyard was accepted, all
three of the lines must be thrown overboard, but he was prepared to
prove, in direct contradiction of Mr. Hildyard's admission pro argu-
mento, that the Leeds and York line was the best of the three. He
was prepared to prove that it was the worst of the three, and he had
too many dealings with the emissaries of the Great King to be taken.
in by such a ruse.
Mr. BAINES was sure the Committee would not be influenced by
the threats of prolonged cress-examination which had been thrown
out by his Learned Friend (Mr. Alexander), and argued that if he
showed his line was an integral line, and involved such a degree of
Public accommodation as to outweigh the objections of his competi- •
tors or of the landowners, the Committee were bound" to allow him
to proceed with his Bill.
Mr. HILDYARD contended that the point at issue for the decision of
whetherceomumlaith:e.wnasstruet( i parties applying for powers to construct
°tat
railwayhhreatC
plained
whether they were not compelled to prove that it was the best
bywdereenybionnend to show that their line was merely a good one
Leeds
tout
York
unthaeteohy.;erhadthT:ecielortittfeactoamm,!dtunialeatnt.stldemtheansufpelterrityezoi,
the Le

Mr. AUSTIN then called Mr. Geddies, who was giving general evi-
dence in support of that tendered by Mr. Christie yesterday, when
The Cumumere interfered. This was general evidence, which they
had had already before them. What was wanted were the particu-
lars on which the tables were to be founded. He thoa .;ht it would be
better at once to adjourn, and have the tables put in, when any evi-
dence the promoters of the Bill thought best talc : ated to prove
them might be submitted.

The Committee, in consequence of this, adjourne : till to-morrow
at twelve o'clock,

IGROUP XIV.
NORTH KENT DISTRICT (SOUTH-.
EASTERN LINE).
The Committee to which the lines traversing the North Kent dis-
trict are referred, met to-day at twelve o'clock, in Room No. 30 ;
present, Mr. Pretheroe, chairman, Lord Emlyn, Mr. J. O'Connell,
and Mr. Grogan.
Mr. Sergeant WaANGilam proceeded in his address to the Com-
mittee in support of the North Kent case. His observations referred
chiefly to those engineering details which have been already fully
given in Mr. Vignoles's evidence. In conclusion, the Learned Ser-
geant urged on the Committee the necessity of not en-
trusting the important district cf North Kent in the
hands of a Company which was impoverished by its
gigantic speculations and schemes, and which, having another
line of access to the termini of the North Kent line, could not
possibly feel so much interested lit accommodating the public
as a company which possessed that line alone, and which knowing
that it was their all, would leave no means untried to secure the
patronage of the public.
Mr. Cocsnuax said, that with the gonsent of the Committee, he
would put in a letter from the Lords of the Admiralty, assenting to
the passage of the South-I-astern line through Greenwich Park.
Mr. Sergeant WRANCHIAM objected to the admission of any such
document, as the proceedings in both cases were closed, and more
especially as he did not consider that portion of the South-Eastern
line as having been actually brought before the Committee.
The CneramArt decided that the document could noetmbebearsdrnfornmittedig
After some deliberation on the part of the Hon. Members
the Committee,
The CHAIRMAN announced that the Committee would give its de-
cision at half-past three o'clock to-morrow.

The Committee deferred their decision ti
Journed at a quarter past four o'clock.

11l to-morrow, 4nd ad.

GROUP XLIII.
EAST AND WEST YORZSIX2I2.E.

The Cemmittee on this Bill met again to-day at twelve o'clock, in
Room 33, Mr. N. Miles, chairman.

Mr. Giainger, engineer to tho Company, was called and examined
by Mr. Banim, Q.C. The line was easy of construction,
the cuttings being very light and gradients most favourable. The
estimate for snaking the line was 20,0001. Ile was satisfied that the
line could be constructed for that amount. After 601128 further; evi-
dence the witness was cross-examined

By Mr. Buss—Had the line gone thriller north before coming
towards Knaresborough, he did not think they could have avoided
Knaresborough without great inconvenience. Could not tell how
many houses they would pull down at Knaresborough. He had not
taken any account of the value of the property which would be
required ; that was not part of his duty as engieeer. By avoiding
Knaresborough the length of the line would be very much increased.'
After a lengthened cross-examination of this witness, the Commit-
tee adjourhed to twelve o'clock to-morrow.

GROUP XLIV.
LIVERPOOL, MANCHESTER, AND NEW.
CASTLE-UPON-TYNE JUNCTION.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Mr. Robert Stephenson was then called, and gave evidence corro•
borative of that of Mr. Hawkshaw. He had examined the plans,
&c., and could speak to their correctness. He totally denied the as-
sertion made in one of the allegations of the petition of Sir W. Law-
son, that the plans were incorrect.
The Committee declared the preamble of the Bill proved.

LANCASHIRE AND NOTE TOILICSHIRE.
This Bill, it will be remembered, forms but a part. of the same pro-
ject as the Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle, the two being in
fact bat one line. The Committee, therefore, in passing the
preamble of one, also passed that of the other, and it was
determined to apply to Parliament for leave to unite
the two, and pass them as one Bill. It must be re-
membered, however, that part of each Bill has been abandoned, the
two having originally been competing lines, but by uniting them and
discarding parts of each, the present apparently perfect project has
been formed.
Having disposed of these Bilis, the Committee proceeded to the
case of the