The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-24 00:00:00

cited where four-fifths of the holders not coming forward
showed an opposition on their part to the Bill, hut they would
have again an spportunity of petitioning against it ; and h. was
competent to the CO emittee afterwards to reject the Bill on
sufficient grounds being shown why they should ct,,me to such
a decision. The asseut of ones fifth went the length
of inducing them to entertain the &IL When they considered
that these reso:utions would operate on every Bill, and that no
Bill in the present state of public feeling would be entertained
without a compliance with them, he considered that the most
beneficial results would be the consequence. Various objec-
tions were started, and one with regard to persons who had a
right to interfere, but who, by these resolutions,
would not be enabled to do so. It was only
those who could show that they had really paid
their deposit. who ought to have a voice in assent. or dissent at
those meetings. It had been said that they ought not to take
away the right of the original shareholders in voting at
such meetings'. lie could by no merns agree to
that view of the case. if they ha paid on their shares with
the intention of becoming bona fide shareholders, if they had
taken up their scrip with the view of becoming investors in the
eunnedeeerstsafkuiln g,
or they
not.
The h a ve f
Fact
stoodfisp o by
atnhe schemes
th
e whether
successful or not. The fact of many of the original
shareholders, however, havin d ysed of their
g
scrip, they had no interest whatever from the Act of
sale. If the scheme turned out a beneficial one, it was not
ge cneeidv e at
se
ey share
deed
whohe wouldh
ati
sri
of the
the
ean wprhoofiht,ados,o, lodyththis
of the company.—( Hear.) By parting with his scrip
notwithstanding
he had forfeited all interest in the undertaking.
He agreed with an lion. Member, who had spoken this even-
ing, that it would not be safe at the present moment to go
further than to apply the resolutions proposed by his Hon.
Friend to the Bills now before Parliament.
Mr. L A BOUCHER E said the object of the resolutions was
twofold. First, to pass a Bill to regulate and amend the Bills
under which railway Companies were constituted, and by
which they were carries! on ; and, secondly, to discuss
the general quest ion of railway speculation. to
which he should shortly devote his attention.
lie heartily rejoiced that her Majesty's Government had turned
their atte Aim' to a subject of such paramount importance.
Any one who had the paid slightest attention to what had been
going on during the period of undue speculation must have
seen that the attention of the Government should be directed,
and the intervention of the Legislature asked, to put an end
to a state of things which were extremely prejudicial
to individuals, and not creditable to the com-
mercial character of the country. There was only one
point with reference to this subject to which he should venture
to advert ; namely, what the Right Hon. Gentleman had
stated with respect to reserved shares by directors of railways.
He confessed he was rather surprised at the innocence of the
Right Honourable Baronet on the subject, because he
thought the prevalence of the practice was a matter
of notoriety, and, he miAlit add, scandalous notos
riety. This system of reserving shares on the
part of the persons who, from their station and influence, he
thought would hove been incapable of such a proceeding—this
practice, hail been carried to a very great extent, and hail the
effect of com,iletely deceiving the great body of the public
—those persons of small property who were inveigled
in shoals into these railway projects. He repeated, that by
reserving these shares, which the parties either allotted to
themselves or their friends, they also frequently came
off scot free thenselves, and deceived those whom
they hail induced to join them. He did not know
whether it was possible for the Legislature to check these
evils, but if the Government would, by the Bill
they were about to introduce, remedy the abuses, he thought
they would be accomplishing a very great advantage. These
things, however, would be matter for discussion when the Bill
came before them, and he should confine the few observations
he had o make to the present proposi ion of the
Right Hon. Baronet. He had observed, with satisfaction, a
desire, on the part of the House, to give a general support to
the proposition ; and, for himself, he was ready to say that he
concurred in the conclusion which the Right Hon. Baronet
had come to. He thought the course recommended by the
Right Honourable Baronet was the hest they possibly
could adopt under existing circumstances.—(Hear.) He
did not mean to say, however, that it was not open to
objection and inconvenience, but in the present state of things
it was impossible to take a step which would not entail incon-
veniences of a dangerous nature upon some pat ties. All the
other suggestions he had heard spoken of were surrounded
with more objections than the recommendation of the Right
Hon. Baronet.; and on the whole he thought it was the
best they could adopt. He must say, however, that he could
not agree with the opinion of the Right Honourable
Baronet that this was the legitimate and proper time for bring-
ing this measure forward, for he recollected a speech which
the Right Hors. Baronet himself made at the commencement
of this session, which left an impression upon his mind
'hat the Government considered the subject, and
had come to the conclusion that interference was
necessary even at that time. That was the im-
pression on his mind, and he believed it was this
impression which the public generally had after reading the
sseech itself, but more particularly the speech made at the
same time by Lord Lincoln, and he thought it would have
been better had they taken more decided steps then.
He thought that in questions of this kind it was the duty of the
Government to undertake the responsibility.—( Hear, hear. )
They ought not to wait until the public out of doors were in a
complete ferment in consequence of the uncertainty of the law.
—( Hear, hear.) And he therefore could not quite agree
with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that he had been very
felicitous in introducing his measure at this particular period.
However, as it had been proposed at last, he was prepared
to give it his cordial support. There was one inconvenience
which would probably result from this measure—he alluded to
the new companies which had lately been projected as
rivals to the great independent railway companies already
in existence. This measure would most probably have the
effect of bringing these projects to an end, and the
public would consequently be deprived of the interests
which they must have received had those companies
succeeded as rivals to the already existing companies,
and he thought that the Government should have taken that
point into their grave consideration. This, he confessed,
was a very wide subject, and he would nut say whether
it was an evil or a good; but he would say that it was the duty
of the Government, in these matters, to protect the public
interests. No doubt her Majesty's Government had taken the
advice of competent parties before they had ventured to propose
the present measure, and must be better informed
than any Honourable Gentleman who might offer
his suggestions across the table to the Members of the Govern-
ment. At the same time he would venture to make one
or two suggestions upon this subject ; one of those
suggestions was this—whether it would not be
possible to propose as an alternative to the scripowners, that
they should have the r wer of expressing their wishes and opi-
nions as to the desirableness, or otherwise, of proceeding
with their hills by written communication, instead of
being compelled to attend at those meetings.
It was not stated when the meeting of the scripholders was to
take place. Ass Irish railway company might be summoned
to meet in London. With regard to the suggestion of
his Hon. Friend, the Member for Weymouth, to
postpone all railway business, to avoid subjecting
the parties to any inconvenience or expense, until
this Bill should be passed, he doubted whether any benefi-
cial object could be effected by such a course. The
people would know the persons connects d with these
companies, and would judge whether there was any
pri-spect of the shareholders of the company persisting
in desiring to pass the Bill; and he took it for granted thatthey
would in most cases avoid passing the Bill through unnecessary
stages, if it was not their intention ultimately to proceed
with it. He would not trouble the House with any further ob-
servations, He should only state that he heartily rejoiced that
her Majesty's Government had directed their attention to this
important subject ; and he thought that their proposed pro-
ceedings would give satisfaction to the country.
Mr. HUDSON said that he fully agreed with her Ma-
jesty's Government in the time which they had chosen for this
measure, for the present time was almost the only one in which
they could act effectually in this matter. He believed that if
the Government had brought forward this measure at an
earlier period of the session, it would not have met
with the public support which it would meet with on this
occasion. The measure would be placed on a sound, solid
basis, for parties would seriously consider the position in which
they bad placed themselves, and the consequence was that by
the meetings that would take place under this measure
little trouble would be given to Parliament to decide on these
cases. He did not deny that during a short time there had
been an excitement in the railway world, and it had arisen from
the successful progress of existing companies. Every person
who had considered the subject forsaw what would be the
effect of the success of the present companies, and that others
would attempt the like success, at, the time when the parties
who had been toiling in the field for a long time began to reap
the harvest of their endeavours. He had not been unfaithful
paper,ntime ouins
which hea,
ienhsadm
atdaek ehny thhi tort() s w
11 collectingtchh o
hthe
to the public on that occasion. He held in his hand a lois
mubeleetinogf
attended, and in which he had cautioned them •
against these
wild speculations and their results. Hear, hear.) lt was of
no use ; and had her ,Majesty's Government interfered at
that time, it would have been said they were interfering with
measures for the benefit f
of no o the country. It would have been
use to tell them that thei
until they had got certainr works should not commence
Had her filajesty,.
Government
sums of money to execute them.
.
interfered then, he was satisfied
th at they would not havto allow it to run on unte interfered successfully, and it was better
a stagnation of public opinion occurred.
The measures now proposed would have a salutary effect.
He owned that there
commu-
nisation, and that it was w"
great advantage in railway commu-
but an excess of essential importance to the country,
of speculation might be injurious. There had been
a statement made in that House, on the authority of a
person from whom, however eminent or distinguished he might
be, he (Mr. Hudson) felt bound, in justice to Parliament and
to the country, to differ. The statement was, that the expense
of railways had increased 50 per cent. He- did
not agree with that statement, and he thought that nothing
could he worse than to allow such an opinion to go forth to
the country. He would refer to a paper which he had in
his pocket, which here some reference to that matter.
lie hail been coenected with railways for a series of years, and
of capital entrusted to him of an
had the largest amount y pri p
individual in the country, but he would be ashamed of such a
come forward and give such informa-
tionposi
-*tion if he declined to
reference to this subject. With
as he could supply inthe price of iron was 101.
respect to the Midland Company, _
The sleepers were 7s.
per ton at the time of its constru.ction
in
The
and land, and everything proportion.
a piece, and sleepers from 4s.
the ton,
other day he bought. iron at 91.
general were not
to 53. Land also was cheaper, and prices in
_serva t t.
ons to
so excessive as in 1841. He had a few further ob
every company
He was quite sure that the directors of
fc
make. onsidering
would give an opportunity to the shareholders o
With
the course proper to pursue under the circumstances.
and he
t to one railway with which he was connected,
respect
was sure that many others would be similarly circumstanced,
every 50/. share rose to the value of 3001., owing to the ex•
ertions of a few individuals, and himself among the number,
who strongly supported it He had great pleasure in support-
ing the resolutions.
Mr. MARK PHILIPS begged to say a few words on a
question that involved so much public interest. He could
say it was his wish, as some interference had taken place be-
fore now upon this subject. At an early period of the session he
was inclined to submit a motion to the Ilitu,e for taking the
matter into consideration. He thought the House would of
itself have taken the matter up, arid that they would have
come to a resolution of not taking any lines of railway this
session which were of a competing character. That was his
view of the case ; but he was told, that if he were to bring it
forward, he would most undoubtedly fail. He was certain that
much capital had been absorbed in railway speculation which
should have been laid out in manufacturing districts. He was of
opinion that the development of the railway principle was
of great public benefit.; and those who had studied
that principle were persons who would have reflected honour
in thu carrying of any great mercantile principle.—f Hear,
hear. ) They had studied the system, and they had found a
beneficial result, and they had conferred a large amount of
good on their country. It was important to see that too much
capital was not directed from the legitimate commercial trans-.
actions of the country ; and while he hoped the proposed
Course would not interfere with the full and fair development
of the railway principle, which he looked upon as one of the
greatest
evils resulting tram undue speOn speculation. these grounds, he
gave his most cordial support to the resolutions proposed.
Mr. NEWDIGATE said it was a general impression that
the resolutions proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet were not
his own. He (Mr. Newdigate) however concurred in what
had fallen from the Lion. Member for Manchester respeoticg

because of the infinite rapidity with which they passed hands.
He was sati=fied that the present proposal Would have the effect
of more effectually preventing tricks being practised than under
the present law. He wished not to impeach the privileges
which these several members possessed; but he at the same
time must remind the House of the peculiar position in which
these members were placed. As, for instance, in the case of
a large company, it was very evident that they possessed
pwers to make interest in the smaller companies, by
buying up their shares, and against sack reports he had no
such complaints to make. Yet while saying thus much, he be-
lieved that the resolution was no sufficient remedy for the evil ;
for it was well known that the shares changed hands with ra-
pidity, almost with incredible rapidity, and that consequently
the danger that was to be apprehended, and the risk, of which
so much had been said, was to be provided against.
Mr. GISBORNE would only detain the House hut a very
short time, and, in doing so, he should beg to refer to his
Hon. Frrd the Member for Manchester. and the Right Hon.
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In doing so, he must say
that the course which the Government had prescribed was
contrary to the object which the l3ill was intended to attain.
Their object evidently was to carry a restraining Bill ; but by
this measure it would seem that, under the present state of the
law, such a measure was impossible. He wished that the
Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury, would
act upon the principle of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Now how stood the case? A man was allotted 100 shares in
one of these new companies, upon which he paid a deposit, of
V. per share on 2001., and afterwards sold them at a premium
for 7001. Now he was informed, at least he gathered from
the newspapers, that in the event of the Government Bill not
passing, the purchaser of the scrip would be at liberty to bring
an action to recover back the premium he had paid, and how,
let him ask, would this operate? Why, when called together
under these resolutions the scripholders would say to them-
selves, " If we sanction the breaking up of this company we
shall abandon our right to receive the premiums we paid on
our shares."
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said it was quite clear that
that the purchaser of scrip never could recover back the price
he had paid to the original allottee.
Mr. GISBORNE was glad he had called attention to this
point, for it would have the effect of appeasing the public
mind on the subject.
Lord SANDON had but a few observations to make upon
the subject of these resolutions. He confessed he had received
them with most hearty satisfaction, and should give
them his cordial support._( Hear, hear.) The prin-
ciple would be for the Committee, in deciding upon
the various railway projects, te discriminate between the inde-
pendent lines and those which were intended to be constructed
by companies already established. He should feel himself per-
fectly at liberty in deciding unhesitatingly in favour of those
schemes which promised most fairly for the benefit of the coun-
try. If the House thought proper for them to be carried into
effect, and that they would result in the public good, there
would be no difficulty in allowing these projects to be pro-
ceeded with. The only other point to which he should call the
attention of the House was as to the inconvenience of fixing
upon the period antecedent to the third reading as a time at
which these resolutions should have effect. It had been stated
by those who were sensible that their Bills were not likely to
be carried out, that they would not have sufficient
time to canvass the feelings of their constituents, nor could
they take upon themselves the responsibility of witholdieg
the further progress of the Bill. He would anpeal to his
Right Hon. Friend, whether parties were not at present com-
pelled by the sessional order of the House to go into Com-
mittee within a limited period from the presentation of the
petition ? He thought that that sessional order should be
amended in some degree, in order that the parties promoting
Bills might be restrained from going into Committee. If the
course he had suggested was adopted, it would facilitate the
contention of many parties connected with Bills, would re-
move a great difficulty, and would issue in reconciling, to
some extent, the conflicting interests of the railway public.
Mr. WILLIAMS observed, that amongst the numerous
Bills before the House, there were several which contem-
plated the formation of long lines of railway, and which were
in possession of enormous capital: Was he to understand the en-
tire capital of these companies was to remain in the hands of the
directors, to be disposed of at their will and caprice? The persons
who had requested him to bring this question before the
House were of opinion, that the class of Bills which comprised
large undertakings might be dealt with in rather a more sum-
mary manner than Bills of this description generally before the
House. Now, it was no very simple thing to make an applica-
tion for a Bill in the next session of Parliament. There were
the details of the traffic to be gone into—the surveys must be
completed—the whole of the notices must be properly served,
and the estimates must be minutely calculated and fixed on.
And further, by the standing orders of the House, an entirely
new subscription deed must be made out. With those com-
panies who were compelled to wind up their affairs, by giving
power to them to enable them to come before the House at
any future session of Parliament, much difficulty would be
created in the operation of the law, and many subsequent al-
terations would be required.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that the object of the
resoluti .ns was merely to enable the parties connected with
railway companies to dissolve, which was a right that they at
pr, sent were not legally entitled to. But with respect to
giving them power as regarded any future application to
Parliament, that was a purpose not at all contemplated by the

the evils of speculation. The Right Hon. Baronet appeared
to him to have trusted too much to the operation of his
Bid of 1844 to check this speculat:on. It had operated
no d iubt with a heavy hand in interfering with speculation
but that had not been sufficient, for it appeared that by the
reqa rements of deposits they had given scrip a character,
which Odd not belong to other kinds of commercial paper. It
had been made to assume the character of money, and ex-
tensively empleyed in that capacity. He could see no due
means of limiting railway speculation, unless all shares issued
iwne,reh
ireehg
ti shteeyr edwe. r and
e registered—in to afford
h the
fact, means
tomoafk
eaccessitioa
rt h boo
in eas
uotkr
es
for the registration of rerip as had been done with respect to
the money weekly issued by bankers, for it was evident that
scrip partook of the nature of money, and ought to be sub-
jected to a similar provision.
Mr. WARD agreed with his Hon. Friend (Mr. Mark
Philips) that no speculation like that with respect to railways
had existed in this city since the South Sea bubble and the
Mississippi scheme. He also agreed with Lim that it had
divert« d capital from its proper channels Persons of
small means entered into this speculation to an almost
incalculable extent, regardless of the consequences, and
without any previous inquiry as to the feasibility of the pro-
jects in which they hazarded their capital—no one inquired
where a railway went to—( Laughter)—or whether it was
required in the district through which it was pro-
jected. He was sorry to say that he himself had
taken a quantity, particularly in new lines. In one
line with which he was connected he took a particular interest,
and a number of shares, because he believed it would be remu-
nerative, but the very reverse had been the result. He had
no objection, and he believed that none was to be found, in these
resolutions. His impression, indeed, was that one-third of the
shareholders would pledge themselves to move for no al'erat ion,
and that that measure would give them general satisfaction ;
and this impression might not be the less from the circum-
stance that the success of several of the schemes had laid
down a rule of the expenses which they ought to bear. Yet,
at the same time, it must be recollected that the companies as
they new stood were unable to divest themselves of the ex-
penses to which they were subjected. They could not divest
themselves of the expenses of the inquiry, of the employment
of counsel, and of all the other incidents which were neces-
sary to take the means for carrying out the project, and for ;he
institution of such further experiments as were necessary to
confirm the validity of the project. Then as to the third
resolution, he felt it necessary to ask its meaning.
His impression was, that those who were in possession of the
scrip ought to be considered the bonci fide proprietors. It was
necessary to a-certain this point, because he believed that
nine-ter.ths of the proprietors of the double schemes now in
existence were quite ready to dissolve their companies since
the commencement of the panic, and he would guarantee his
Hon. Friend, the Member for Taunton, that no attempt would
be made to reiterate the schemes of the last few years. He
was no friend to partial legislation, but he believed that for
the next twenty years such a lesson had been read as would
a sufficient guard for the time to come. On these accounts
he was quite ready to assent to the words of the resolution.
Very harsh language had been used with regard to the conduct
of the provisional committees and directors, but it was ad-
mitted on all hands that the late railway enterprise had been
most useful, and that it was desirable for the interests of this
country that that speculation should be carried on. The rail-
way directors had, to the best of their power, endeavoured to
ascertain the best projects in which the money of themselves
and the public could he invested, and he could not conceive
bow Hon. Members could j'astly cry them down, although he
must certainly admit that during the late railway mania there
had been some exceptionable transactions. He could assure
the Right Hon. Baronet that he laboured under an error when
he conceived it to be his dm y to attack the practice of reserving
shares. There might have been cases in which those shares
were reserved for the purpose of fraud, but he could assure him
that the number of applications in railway' projects had been
so exceedingly large that it was found necessary by the direc-
tors to reserve the shares in the mariner which they had. Out
of the 500,000 applications for shares, he was sure that the
Right lion. Baronet would, had he been engaged in these rail-
way undertakings, have found very great difficulty in allotting
shares with safety to the 40,000 that had applied. The di-
rectors had experienced the greatest difficulty in the proper
exercise of then. duties. He could assure the Right Hon.
Baronet that the greatest schemes had been used for the pur-
pose of deceiving the provisional committees. Forged names
and false residences had been made use of in the applications
for the purpose of deceiving the directors. He was perfectly
new in the affair himself, and he had not the least doubt that a
very great many errors had been committed in the allotment
of shares in the company with which he was connected, but he
certainly did, in his character of chairman of the provisional
directors, reserve at least one-tenth of the shares of the com-
pany. Several Honourable Members of that House had found
themselves involved in this railway speculation, from a desire,
in common with people out of doors, to profit by it.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) For his own part, he thought it was
highly creditable for men to be concerned as directors in a re-
spectable railway undertaking. And of this he was confident,
that these projects had had the effect of furthering the prospe-
rity of the counte y. He had no doubt that the share-
holders, in those companies that ought to be dissolved,
would take the earliest opportunity of availing them-
selves of the advantage held out to them by the
resolutions of the Right Honourable Baronet, at least
to proceed with their original intentions. After what they
had heard, and very truly heard, of railway speculations in the
course of the summer, this proposition was only making an
appeal from Philip drunk to Philip sober, and giving them an
opportunity of recording their opinions. He felt that there
were some objections of a smaller character, but they were
doubtless considered by the framers of the Bill. He would
give his support to the proposition.
Mr. F. W. BARING, who was very indistinctly heard in
his opening remarks, said that not the slightest objection
could be urged to the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet.
It was in reality an appeal to the promoters of these schemes—
it was giving them an opportunity of reconsidering their con-
dition—it was asking them indeed whether they were prepared.
He himself would gladly give his vote for the dissolution of
the company of which he was chairman. He, like several
other railway directors, had been put to much expense and
trouble, for which they expected no thanks. That was the
benefit connected with these railway undertakings.—( Hear.)
Mr. B. DENISON confessed that he originally thought
that some steps ought to have been taken to put an end to the
mad speculations which were convulsing the country, and
which were withdrawing capital from their wholsome and
natural channels. It had the effect of locking up capital,
which otherwise would have been freely circulated throughout
the country; but, however, he thought it was batter now to
interfere than not to interfere at all. and he certainly should
give his hearty concurrence to the proposition of the Right
Honourable Baronet. Some Honourable Gentlemen had com-
plained that the contingent expenses attending the committal
and second reading of the Bill would be still increased, but he
for one could not see how they could be. Parties might avail
themselves of the resolutions within ten days from the present
time, and if they did not meet with sufficient en-
couragement they might abandon the Bill alto-
gether. There was another point to which he wished to call
the attention of the Right Hon. Baronet, who, in the course of
his speech made an allusion to a recent statement made by Mr.
Brunel, as to the cost of making railways. The Hon. Member
for Sunderland had answered that statement, but had he not,
he should have felt it to be his duty to state, that he had put
himself in communication with parties who were in the habit
of contracting for the construction of railways, who told him
that Mr. Brunel's statement was a most extravagant and in-
cautious one. He believed there was no doubt that a railway
could be made at very little additional cost to what it
would have taken lately.—( Hear.) The Right Hen. Baronet,
in the course of his speech, referred to a letter relating to the
London and York Railway, and seemed to do so with a view
of convincing the House that the directors of the company
were disposed to break up the company.
Sir ROBERT PEEP,—No. no.
Mr. BECKET T DENISON said he knew instances in
which competing companies were buying up shares of the
rival lines, for the purpose of obtaining a majority in the
meetings proposed to be held under the provisions of the pro-
posed Act. It was in the case of the London aed York Rail-
way. The Eastern Counties Company, of which- the Hon.
timber for Sheffield was one of the directors, were'doing so
at the present moment ; and he thouelit that was conduct
which one company should not pursue towards another. For
his own part he would not do so; he did not possess much in-
terest in that railway—he held but twenty shares in it—he
supported it upon public grounds, and with a desire to obtain
the best mode of communication between London and York;
he had no fear as to the ultimate success of that line,
in spite of all that oppoaition.—( Hear, hear.) He thought
the proposed Bill would give to competing lines advantages
which might be unfairly used against rival companies, and
enable them to burke their competitors. Existing companies
would have a very decided advantage over those who were
mere promoters of lines, and he considered that no person
should he allowed to vote at these meetings who was not a
holder of serip on the 4th of April last, which was the time
when the first notice was given of their intentions. The
House was aware that when a motion was on the paper which
was not agreeable to parties, those opposing it refused to come
into the House in order that there might be an adjournment.
This would be precisely the mode adopted by those opposing
a line or wishing for its dissolution. If he would permit the
meeting to consist of one-fifth of the whole shareholders in
the first instance, instead of three-fifths of the amount as pro-
posed, it would be a simpler arrangement, and collect
the opinions of the shareholders much more effectively.
Parliament, if it could set its face against this undue specula-
tion, it ought to do so. He was applied to repeatedly to be-
come a provisional committee-man, but he invariably refused
to do so. During the whole course of the autumn, when the
railway mania prevailed to its greatest extent, he actually
trembled at the extent of this speculation, and en account of
its consequences; and he advised his friends to abstain from
speculating in railways.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
seemed so general a concurrence in the resolutions proposed by
the Government, that it would be unnecessary for him to ad-
dress the House at any length with respect to them ;
but as certain objections had been taken as to the course of
the Government, he should make one or two observations in
reply to them. It had been, in the first instance, stated that
jttwtchahinoateeuins,l iaGdcnorivnreierrn,ai which
owweanasytsmi,nmigithusetstlhfave interfered at an earlier period with
respect to those projects, and more directly than they had now
n
done. Every one who had watched the progress of the specu-
bpereagwnaarnet
witht a
considerable
t e eztent to
dangerwhic h
to
commercial
to suh discourage
etaegme
was,paeii h
r tohef
otsheeoc no
certainlyuwn thr
oydmi andhue
set
halloplacedthought
g the
ei
he n
means theha
is i t
anye
he
e-
influence from embarking in those speculations, or giving
their countenance to them ; but it appeared to him that it
would reach to an extent which Parliament could not possibly
foresee. It is true they might, by the adoption of arbitrary
measures, have materially reduced this speculation, by only al-
lowing the introduction of Bills required by the wants of the
country ; but then the difficulty of selecting those which should
be proceeded with and thosewhichhyshthoue Hon. Memberldbewithdr nrawin.
The difficulty of this was foreseen
competing lines from Parliament ,
with-
drawal of all
difficulties, account of the selection
Manchester (Mr. Mark Philips), who suggestedhnt tthheatw
a
attended with enormous
Sunderland (Mr.
This opinion was
also expressed by t
Hudson), which was no doubt in the recollection of the House.
which they thought it advisable to pursue, was
The only course
and the arbitrary nature u rue on
the
Ale mc °blue' rf rs
°or
the danger of these spe-
culations. That period at length arrived, and the public now
to allow the public mind to cool a little, and that there should
be some sense in the public mind of
saw the danger of these speculations and the responsibility
attached to them. They had, by the delay in bringiegl for-
ward this motion, gained the concurrence of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sunderland. which, if they had brought forward such
a Bill before now, they would not have gained. It was s -id
that they had done wrong by not having legislated for this
before such Bills as these went into Committee, and saved
such parties expense. But this could not have been done,
There had been a Bill progressing in the other House which
effected the whole question. If the assent was given to the
third reading of the Bill by the proper constituency, there
would be no further interposition between the third reading of
the Bill His Hon. Friend behind him had said that a check
should be put upon those who had purchased scrip on these
inchoate railways, because if that was nut allowed, those great
railway companies, whose interests might be furthered
by the dissolution of several of the present railway pro-
jects, might, before the proposed meetings were called, purchase
shares in those companies, for the express purpose of
enabling them to vote for their dissolution, and thus removing
rival companies out of their way ; but his Hon. Priced should
recollect that it was impossible to impose such a check, because
they could not ascertain at what period these scrip were issued

Bill.
Mr. WILLIAMS again urged that power had been taken
by the managing directors to take the control of the capital
into their own hands, and they had retained this immense
amount of money to proceed with their Bills at any future
session; and there were no legal means by which the share-
holders could compel the managing directors to wind up. The
directors had the power of adding to their number, and conse-
quently of increasing their influence. He had, therefore,
hoped that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would take into
his consideration the position of parties connected with projects
to be carried on to a future session. They were placed in a
worse position than those who had Bills already before the
House.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL observed that it was one of
the especial objects of the Bill to provide for that class of
cases which had been alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site. That power would be given to a certain number of
shareholders in the undertaking. which would render it compul-
sory in them to wind up the affairs of the company.
Mr. COLLETT was much oblipul to her Majesty's Soli-
citor-General for having explained various points in the reso-
lutions before the House. He considered that the directors
of many of these schemes had been very ill-treated—they had
been subjected to a deal of hard work, were exposed to misrepre-
sentation and insinuations of various kinds, and yet they were
bound by their position to retain the original amount of the
shares which they had. With respect to the third reading, he
really thought, that before any progress was made in railway
Bills, that some regulation should be adopted to prevent the
further carrying on of those schemes before they arrived at
that period. He would only say, with respect to the estimates
of the construction of the lines, there was no increase what-
ever in the price of the materials. There was only a slight
increase in the price of labour, and a trifling increase in the
cost of conveyance. He firmly believed that contracts could
be performed at a lower rate during the present year, than
they could have been done during the last year,
or any previous year. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by
expressing a hope, that the powers of the different companies
might still be continued in the hands of the directors for the

purpose of winding up the undertaking.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said it was the intention c.l
the Bill to enable the shareholders to bring before the directors
in as unanimous a manner as possible, their wishes as to
whether the Bill should be proceeded with or not. He thought
that, considering the importance of the question, there could
be no objection to relieve the directors of a portion of the
responsibilities by throwing the onus on the shoulders of the
shareholders.
Mr. O'CONNELL was grieved to confess that the Right
Hon. Baronet had made out a complete ease for this House.
What was the effect of these resolutions? They raised a numer-
ous array of other questious, and would lead to no end of com-
plicated litigation. He did not know a worse tribunal to dis-
cuss a question of this nature than a House of Commons.
They diminished a number of railway schemes, but then
the number of Bills was increased. They should have
something like a railway at home. They ought to have a rail-
way judge, and to him should be committed the care of these
matters. Let it not be considered that the appointment of
such a tribunal would be extraordinary. They had separate
judges in different departments of law. There were ecclesi-
astical judges, judges in the civil courts—and there were even
registration judges—then why not a railway judge and a rail-
way court? The Hon. Solicitor-General had told the House
distinctly that the power of dissolution was compulsory. Now
how was it to be made compulsory ? An Act of Parliament
could not be considered compulsory in questions of this kind,
because the utmost they could do would be to levy a fine, and
it would be difficult to enforce those fines. They ought, then,
to have a railway court and a railway judge. Take from the
bar one of those gentlemen who by their attainments and
their experience are entitled to the confidence of the public,
and make him a railway judge. It might be said that the ne-
cessity for such a judge might not exist for more than
two or three years. Well, then, the exrense of the experi-
ment would .be diminished. The confidence which would
result from the present state of the administration of railway
affairs would be, that one would apply to one court, and
another go to another tribunal, so that the litigation on these
matters would be greatly extended and greatly amplified. He
would submit to the consideration of the Government whether
these difficulties would not be obviated if such a court as he
had suggested was appointed. The thing itself was a novelty.
Those railways destroyed the whole common law with respect
to public ways. The public ways were understood to be the
property of the public, but since the railways came into opera-
tion there was no such thing as the public claim being recog-
nised. He therefore suggested the propriety of having these
matters investigated by a railway judge.
After a few words from Mr. PACKE,
Mr. MILNER GIBSON wished to ask a question of the
Ida
sllhoanre.hSooldliecritowr-hGo ehnaedralp.urnHheaswedanstnerdiptoinkntohwe
mwahrektheters,hninf
attend a meeting, and sign a petition, his position would be
altered, so as to render him liable to come under the same pro-
visions as those to which the original allottee was liable?
The answer of the Solicitor-General did not reach the
Gallery.
Mr. BARKER wished to know whether the scrip-
Hw oun . Friend
n.
greatlythe
holders who signed the requisition that a project should be
which were founded on a
carried through did not place themselves in the position of ori-
ginal shareholders?
The SOLICITOR. GENERAL
td said
eadt
idtohinda;t
ntaohnteddpehoseiinr
could
owutlaods
dtnih.
oset.
TositNacnKziosuaisdcothnsai
sgCti answer
ruhootuiLorjsrdsacdrogatdurneticdotGtotfai hfrot. rational tB iieEonfNr present.most
railwaya
speculation.,,i , but
His he
measures tending to
apprebationt fethe conduct of
rejoiced to
Gseeeotrhgee
speculations
tohdf e t
he
ex
icre ss of
rob t'
Sunderland had expressed his Member for
her Majesty's Government in this rnatter,but he
Beutinck) could not concur in thmatanapp
con-
duct. The Right Hon. Gentle
Exchequer had drawn the distinction between Chancellor of the
and the people sober; but he (Lord G.e the people drunk
ask whether her Majesty's Government had not
begged to
share in making the people drunk onad not had a great
to the year 1844 the excess of railway railway speculation ? Up
by the necessity that existed of makingsapedculation was checked
on the shares. That was a wholesome
of 10 per cent.
speculation, and had the effect of restricthas on wild
venti
schemes. In the year 1844 her Majesty's irroeverntnent re ng bubble
the deposit from 10 per cent. per share toduced
and that reduction tended very much to encourages per cent.,
specu-
lations in railway matters. But this was not a wild
money market was easy in the year 1845, those Whilst the
on railways rose to a still greater height. It speculations
rule at a Board, at the head of which sat a noblemanwan established
of power.
ful understanding, and a perfect man of business—he
Lord Dalhousie, the Chairman of the Bo meant
number of competing • Board of Trade—to dis-
courage the num • lines already in the market.
The Government did not endeavour to back the Bmoaarrdeti
Trade, but on the contrary. The Right Hon.o
Gentleman at
the head of the Government stated in that House, tha
t
it t t
it could not be endured that large towns should not
have the shortest and most direct railway
What was this but an encouragement to this sort
and an inducement to set ap lines in oppoQit iothe old exist-
ing lines of railway? It was in that
the railway speculation originated. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man was not content with increasing
these railway schemes in
this manner, but he also stated that it was not to be endured
that such towns as Manchester, Liverpool, and Birmingham
should have to send ten or twelve miles round. When the
Hon. Gentleman encouraged these schemes in this way, no
person could be_surprised that the public entered into these

TME SUN, g4ONDON, FRIDAY EVENING APRIL 24, i 846.

ei sd
uHsteuetmxi:
speculations, but not only did he encourage them in this way,
the Right Hon. Gentleman consented to be the hero of the
silver trowel ank the mahogany wheelbarrow.—(Loud laugh-
ter.) So much was the support of these speculations attributed
to the Hon. Gentleman, that in the town of Burton, in the
neighbourhood of Tamn orth, there were no less than eleven
competing railway schemes got up by enterprising specula-
tors.—( Laughter.)
Mr. CARDWELL said that he would be excused for not
feeling with the Noble Lord in the allusions which he had jnst
made, but as one observation he had made partook very largely
of matter of fact, he (Mr. Cardwell) would take the liberty of
stating his opinions with regard to the important statement
with w hich the Noble Lord had commenced his speech. The
Noble Lord said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
spoken of the people drunk and the people sober, and that if
the people were drunk, her Majesty's Government had
made them drunk by the alteration which had taken place in
the rate per cent. with regard to the deposits. If the Govern-
ment made the people drunk, and caused their speculations in
these railways by that circumstance, he would add that it was
in the year 1844 that trade was not in a good condition, and
that the money market was not flourishing. In the year 1844
also matters began to mend, and railway speculations began to
increase. If her Majesty's Government caused this increase,
it was because they improved the state of trade, and rendered
washis
ownnot
inference. his more easy the state of the money market, and that improved
(Mr.
cdnoaiC,fdt
iaofr
nnrd
oowwm e
al
state was the cause of the evil complained of. The statement
stl
one-tenthh'hsaii )st.
kb
isputt
estat
hrtheat
height,
i eegenthnhttt_
the Noble
NobleoaanNnn
dodLtbhtolhheer
the rule
i n'
ri,s(
u,
money
nreiwce, it h.yt ohv
would
doaonrur ebdli wdni
Card-
well) now defied the Noble L ,rd to deny the correctness of his
deny that in September and October last the railway
force was, that previous to the presenting of any petition for a
rmaailnwiaay,orthein
subscribed should be deposited in the Court of Chancery. If
the intoxication continued at its height, with the necessary
deposit of 10 per cent., how could the absence of 10 per cent.
have caused it, and therefore hew could the Government have
given rise to this speculation ?
Mr. HODGSON did not agree with the opinion of the Hon.
Gentleman who had just spoken. During the period of de-
pression which preceded the ye 'r 1844 it was difficult to obtain
cent. was enforced; but in the year 1844, when trade was good
money to promote these railways, and the deposit of 10 per
and money became plentiful—at the very period when it would
be necessary to continue the restriction—Mr. Gladstone re-
duced the deposit to 5 per cent. When, however, during the
summer, speculation rose to a great height again, the 10 per
cent. was forced to be re-introduced. _ _.

Mr. T. S. DUN COM BE said that he thought that Govern-
ment was not most to blame with reference to this question.
He did not think the Government responsible for the specula-
tion in August last, and before he sat down he should be able
to prove that the mania was produced by persons not connected
With her Majesty's Government; but he wished he could say
that they were equally unconnected with the Howes of Par-
liament.—(Laughter.) All the blame should attach itself to
Parliament for not coming forward sooner during the present
session to tell the nation what was to be done. At Christmas
last all the world was asking what would Parliament do with
the Bills that were for their consideration? They had now
been sitting three months, and were floundering as to what
they should be about. He had just produced a plan for ascer-
taining the opinions of the present scriptiolders of companies.
The Right Hen. Baronet, in his statement that evening said,
that circumstances had changed since the introduction of theca
projects, but the Right Hon. Baronet must know very little
on the subject if he supposed that the parties now holding scrip
were the original parties who embarked in November last.
He knew it was a fact—and it did look suspicious—that many
of the original parties were members of the Stock Ex-
change ; and he felt that the House was not
going far enough. The Right Hon Baronet read a letter to
the House, which he stated had shocked him terribly. An
Hon. Member had remarked that it showed the innocence of
the Right Hon. Baronet in being shocked at that letter. The
document was in reference to the practice of rigging the mar-
ket, and that system was known to every man, woman, and
child last Christmas. If the Government was so shocked by
that letter, what were they about to do? Were they going to
send them to the Committees up s'airs ? Were Hon. Members
to wade through all this filth and dirt described by the Right
Hon. Baronet ? He (Mr. Duncombe) should propose some
resolution to the House, which would push this ques-
tion to the bottom. It would decide what requi-
sites these companies must have, and the bond
.fide
sincerity of these enterprises. No person could object to the.
resolutions he was about to propose if their project was bowl
fide—if it was for the public good, and not for speculative pur-
poses. He should propose a preliminary inquiry nn the part
of the Committee to which it misht be sent, according to this
resolution. That Committee, before going into the merits of
the Bill, should institute an inquiry as to how, and by whom.
the enterprise had been got up. No company that was a real
and well got up project could object to it, while all bubble
schemes would dissolve into air. He had been told that even-
ing that the companies did not care one straw for the resolutions
proposed to the House, and that the only resolutions they were
afraid of were the resolutions he was about to propose.
What he should propose was, that it be an instruction to the
Committees on each Private Bill, before proceeding to the
merits of such Bill, to have produced before them a copy of the
registration and the names of the promoters, as registered.
Under the regulation as it formerly stood, any man might
register a company by himself for a small sum, and that was
actually done in October last. The House would find that
one-half of these things were registered by some surveyor or
solicitor. He should also wish that inquiries were made as to
the directors, solicitors, &c., for no gentleman could object to
have his name brought before the Committee. He should
also propose the amount of capital, the number of shares,
the names and residences and subscriptions of the original
allottees. They should also know the amount of share. re-
tained by provisional committee men—(Hear, hear)—and no
person could, as an honest man, object to that. He held in his
hand a provisional committee advertisement of November last.
An advertisement of such a length ought to command all the
influence of the whole country—every sort of name should be
there—Honourables, Right Honourables. It was an advertise-
ment of the Direct Manchester, and Northern Railway. He
had been looking for the Bill amongst the Committees, but
could not find it. There were no less than 172 provisional com-
mittee-men on it, and he should like to see how many shores
they had received, and how many they had paid upon. It would
be very unsatisfactory to know that out of the 172 gentlemen
not 200 shares had been taken in all. There were F.R.S.,
law, physic, and divinity, held out as decoys to the public. He
was curious to know how much had been paid on shares, and
still more curious to know what had been received by Hon.
Alembera to allow their names to be inserted as provisional
committee-men. He had received several, and he held the
prospectus of one in his hand. A letter accompanied it, pro-
mising to bear him harmless from all liabilities. He would
ask the Solicitor-General whether that was a good guarantee ?
—(Laughter.) The public considered, when they saw these
previsional committe-men published to the world, that
they participated in the expense and the project.
He held in hand another list, in which he found the names of
102 clergymen. What would be the consequence if the pa-
rishioners of those gentlemen should see their names on that
provisional committee? There were Deacons, Arch-
Deacons, Right Reverends, Reverends, and Vicars giving
their spiritual sanction to the project.—(Loud laughter.)
Under such circumstances how could the public
and their parishioners be blamed for joining the project?
It was right that they should know the number of the shares
retained by the provisional committees, and the amount paid
up on them. Also the number of shares now held. That was
one object which he sought to obtain. When the shareholders
now sought for information respecting the funds of the com-
pany, or the mode of application, it was almost impossible
to obtain it ; but, by the resolutions he was
about to submit, they would be obliged to furnish to the Com-
mittees who sat on their Bills all these important particulars.
The resolution he proposed on this point he was persuaded
would operate in a most beneficial manner. The locking up of
fifteen millions of capital, with no guarantee whatever that
the schemes proposed were not bubble speculations, was a most
improper state of things. And what was the process by
which these railway companies sought to get up the amount
of deposit necessary for compliance with the standing
orders? One or two other directors made application to some
banker for assistance, and if he was satisfied that the liabilities
of the company did not exceed the deposits paid, then he ad-
vanced the balance to complt to the sum requisite for the stand-
ing orders, and the amount was placed in the hands of the Ac-
countant-General. If the Bill was rejected, the sum so ad-
vanced was immediately paid back to the party who advanced
it ; if the Bill was carried, the same was done; while the
shareholder, who had been led to believe that a sufficient
deposit had been paid up to meet the standing orders, found
out the mistake by the calls that were immediately made to
make up the deficiency. The greatest and merest bubble
might go before Parliament under this mode of raising the 10
per cent. deposits, in order to comply with the
standing orders of the House of Lords. Another
resolution he meant to propose called upon the projectors of
those companies who went before Committees of that House
to give an explanation, not only of the amount of deposit paid
up, but also of the source from whence they intended to raise
the 5 per cent. additional to meet the House of Lords. He
hoped these resolutions, which he would hereafter submit,
would meet the support of the House, and that they would be
acceded to, in addition to those proposed by her Majesty's
Government. If they were passed it would save a great amount
of trouble, and do much to relieve the evils that at present
existed.—(Hear, hear.) They would not do right unless
they probed to the bottom all these expenses, and it was a
course of proceeding to which he thought no honest man
could object.— (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member concluded
by readingt resolutions:thebf:llaonwiinngeructionto
:
the Committee on every
private Bill, originated in this House, relating to any railway,
before proceeding with the merits of such Bill, to require to
be produced before them, and verified by the promoters.
" 1. A copy of the original return made for the purpose! of
provisional registration with the names of the promoters as
then registered.
"2. The names, residences, and descriptions of the present
and past provisional directors, treasurers, solicitors, secretary,
and other officer, if any.
" 3. The present and proposed amount of the capital of the

company.
" 4. The number of shares, and the amount of each share.
4..5. The number of shares actually allotted, with the names,
residences, and descriptions of the original allottees, and the
number of shares allotted to each.
" 6. The amount of subscriptions paid up by such original
allottees.
" 7. The amount of shares retained by or for the provisional
committee.
" f. 3. The amount of subscriptions actually paid up by such
provisional. committee upon the shares originally allotted to
them.
"9. The original subscribers' agreement, signed by the
allottees.
" 10. A statement of the amount of money in hand, toge-
ther with an abstract of all receipts and expenditure up to the
presentation of the petition for the Bill.
" 11. A statement of the source whence the Parliamentary
deposit was paid, or whether a declaration was made of a surplus
revenue instead of a deposit.
" And that the Committee report specially on each of the
foregoing particulars."
Mr. MONCKTON MILNES said that he had remarked
nn a former occasion that many of the railway companies
proposed would not admit of examination. Although the in-
quiries sought by the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Dun-
combe) might be very amusing, and the mysteries of Carl-
court might serve the " Mysteries of Paris," still he did not
think they were necessary for any practical purpose.—( Hear,
hear. ) The Hon. Gentleman had omitted the interest of the
public in the matter. They had got before them a greater
amount of railway business than they would ever have again,
and he should regret their carrying any resolutions that would
deprive the measure abefore the House being as fully and largely
considered as possible. If submitted to the probing and flee
I investigation of the House, he was persuaded that the best lines
would be carried into effect. He did trust no resolution of the
House would be agreed to that would prevent the present
schemes from being investigated before Committees of the House.
Mr. DISRAELI said he could not but believe the discus-
sion in which they were engaged was one of considerable im-
portance. He thought the resolutions of the Hon. Alember
for Finsbury contained a great deal of good sense, and while
he considered so, he was not opposed to the resolutions pro-
posed by her Majesty's Government. Still, he could not but
think they should have been proposed at an earlier period.
Why at so late a time offer such considerations, whether from
the Opposition or the Government ?—( Hear, hear.) Ail ac-
knowledge the mischief done, and all are now ready to propose
a remedy.—(Hear, hear.) One thing was certain, ill parties,