The Sun.
London, England, 1848-05-17 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 17, lB4B.

parishes), residence of course should not be insisted on,
the objects being to connect the parochial clergy with
the cathedral churches, and in these cases, also, the
clergy holding the stalls ought not, he thought, to re
large share of the profits of the cathedral
Taking this view, he could not but hope that,
cperiovpee
ra&y:
n the pressure ,f public business permitted, the at
tentien of her Majesty's Government would be directed
to this subject. He did not desire to pare or cut down.
the revenues of these cathedrals, and if he said one word
in their disparagement it was only because he believed
they might be made far more conducive to the general
purposes of the Church.
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed with the Right Honourable
Gentleman who had just sat down, that it might be very
desirable to take some further measures with respect to
the cathedral establishments. But he was unwilling, by
silence, to permit it to be assumed that he entirely
agreed with the way in which this case had been put by
the Hon. Mover. That Hon. Gentleman seemed to think
that these establishments were useless, and even preju-
dicial; his own view, he must admit, was that cathedrals
might be made very valuable to the purposes of religion
and of the Church. He must further say, that he did
not think the Hon. Gentleman had taken a very correct
view of several of the points connected with the subject.
For example, he was under a mistake in supposing that
cathedral dignitaries were prohibited from giving their
livings, except to any of their own body. Now, it was
entirely in their power to give their livings to any
clergyman in the diocese, who had served as incumbent
or curate therein for a period of five years. Again,
with respect to the construction of the Act, the Hon.
and Learned Member had certainly not attributed
sufficient importance to what had been done under the ,
authority of the Ecclesiastical Commisson. That Com-
mission had power, under words which he (Lord John
Russell) had introduced, with the assent of the late
Archbishop of Canterbury, and the late Earl of Har-
row by, to 'apply the funds of cathedral stalls and pre-
bends, to the cases of parishes having large populations,
and to those parishes out of which local ties might arise.
The Hon. Member's argument, therefore, certainly was
not borne out that the first object should be to raise the
incomes of livings merely geographically approximating
to cathedrals; nor did he (Lord John Russell) think it
would be desirable that such augmentations should be
the first to be made. Differing from the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, however, as to these points, he was
glad to pay his tribute to his industry and perseverance
in dealing with the question generally, and he was quite
prepared to say that in the general spirit of his motion
he entirely concurred. He did not precisely see how the
plan proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman
who had just sat down, of appropriating stalls to the
purposes of theological learning, could be carried out,
because questions would undoubtedly arise as to how the
most learned men could be selected ; but in any propo-
sition to appropriate the proceeds of stalls to the ad-
vancement of parochial objects he entirely concurred. II
the House at all agreed in that view, he had only to add
that though there might be inconvenience in agreeing
to the motion in its present form, yet he thought the
whole subject required attention; that the Government
would continue, as they had done, to give it that atten-
tion; and that he thought that the latter words of the
motion, that " Measures to ascertain whether the cathe-
drals might not be rendered more conducive to the ser-
vices of the Church and the spiritual instruction of the
, people," ought to be adopted.
Mr. HUME expressed his gratification at hearing the
concluding words of the Noble Lord's declaration. He
adverted to the argument of the Hon. Member for th,
University, that church property stood on the same
tooting as private property, and denied that such was
the case.—(Hear, hear.) They must recollect that this
property was derived from the public. He thanked the
Hon. Gentleman for bringing forward this motion. His
statement of that night would go forth to the public,
and would make a great impression on every thinking
mind. Out of the lion. Member's proceedings infiuitt.
good results would, he was sure, arise.
Mr. GOULBURN said the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down seemed entirely to have forgotten
that, during the last twenty years, material alterations
had been made in the cathedral establishments of the
country ; and he begged him to show how and when the
property of the Church was given to it by Parliament
and by the public ?—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the
motion before them, he thought, after the speech of the
Noble Lord, very little remained for them to discuss.
He had never been a supporter of abuses, and it the
abuses stated to-night, or any part of them, were found
to exist he should be one of the first to assent to in-

quiry. With respect to the Hon. Member's speech, he
agreed with the Noble Lord that the tendency of the
lion. Members's speech was the uselessness of cathe•
drals, and the desirability of their entire abolition. "lhe
Honourable Member contrasted the small incomes of

city incumbents with the large incomes of cathedra
canons. If the Hon. Member had gone out of cathedra

cities to other and more populous towns he would, per.
haps, have found the incomes no higher. Was it
fair then to attribute the poverty of the clergy to the
fault of the cathedrals? The fault, if fault there was,
was, was with the law, or with the Ecclesiastical Corn
miasioners who administered it. The Commissioners,
however, had only fulfilled the intention of Parliament
by meeting the most urgent cases first. The Noble Lord
had referred to one instance of a mistake made by th,
Hon. Gentleman. He would refer to another. In stating
the case of Lincoln the Hon. Member said that the
income of the chapter there might go on augmenting.
But by 5 and 6 Victoria the incomes of the dean and
canons were limited to a specified sum, and if their in-
comes reached or exceeded that sum, the surplus would
go to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for parochial
purposes. With respect to what the Hon. Gentleman
had said of Archdeacon Croft, ho thought also that the
lion. Gentleman ought also to have apprised the arch-
deacon of his intention to make a serious charge against
him. He reminded the Hon. Gentleman that a cause of
this sort was not promoted by a personal attack. But he
would say nothing more on that subject. There seemed,
indeed, to be so much unanimity upon the question be•
tore them, that it was unnecessary.
Mr. J. HEYWOOD was nut quite aware of what was
the use of deans and chapters in this country. It ap-
peared to him that in some respects they were draw-
backs upon the efficiency of the Church. In a recent
case, for instance, they had endeavoured to oppose the
appointment by the Crown of one of our most eminent
theologians to a bishopric. With regard to their ad-
vancement of learning he mentioned that when the Bri
tish Association for the promotion of science held their
meeting at Oxford, the dean of Christchurch was absent
and nothing was done by the cathedral dignitaries for
the advancement of scientific objects.
Sir E. N. BUXTON was most unwilling to let any
do
opportunity pass without thanking the Honourable
ds
ap spiritually
u,
111 did
destitute
st
Member for Cockermouth for bringing this question
forward.ap-
ply
thi
te ctsueeemh him,uprtecoohoteo. su
c that, with a teeming
population in our large towns, it was our duty to ap-
pptliyurtchhe
propertynecessities
was
only held by the Church in trust for the benefit of the
people, and it ought to be applied for the relief of their
spiritual necessities wherever they existed. He had
heard with regret that any portion of that property was
received by persons who did little or nothing for their

monies.
Mr. HENLEY said that the Hon. Member who had
just sat down went rath©r too far in his doctrine of
trusteeship, for he not only thought that the State had
is right to see the trust performed, but also to declare
what that trust was. This was but one step from saying
that they could do as they liked with Church property.
lie objected altogether to this new fangled notion, and
therefore felt a difficulty in assenting to the proposition
that Church property was trust property at all. An
lion. Member had thought fit to find fault with the
Dean of Christchurch, and had given then a version of
what he considered to be the proper qualities of
.a dean.
He had also favoured them with what he considered to
be a scientific dean. And as it appeared that those
notions of science were measured by the fact of whether
or not a gentleman gives a breakfast to a great number
of hungry savans, by the same rule they might conclude
that if he was to give a good dinner, with a good French
cook, he would doubtless be considered pious into the
bargain.—(Laughter.) This, he took it, was all the
Hon. Member could bring up against the unfor-
tunate Dean of Christchurch. lie could not say that
the case which the Hun. Member had brought be-
fore the House had convinced him (Mr. Henley) of the
justice of the motion with which he had concluded.
Going over such large fields as that Gentleman had done
it was not difficult for him to dress up a case in the
manner he had, especially when he had got his facts to
suit his case, instead of getting his case to suit his facts.
The Hon. Member had certainly failed to convince him
that any good could result from the matter. The mat-
ters in question were in the hands of the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners—a body of which he was not particu-
larly fond —(Hear, hear)—but he had no doubt that
they would do their duty well; and if they did not the
lion. Member was doubtless disposed to keep a sharp
eye upon them, and to bring the subject before the House
whenever he could.
Mr. HORSMAN, in explanation, stated that the
Hon. Member had misapprehended some points of what
he had said. He had stated that those establishments
which were endowed for great purposes, as now admi-
nistered,
aid not render the services for which they
were originally intended ; and he conceived that such
utitoi senaseti
to
stwhmhaoeasui,indet
maintain
nel
withhtaniae, more
an observation was certainly not equivalent to express-
ing an opinion that those establishments were useless.
Not one syllable had fallen from him about cutting
down Their revenues, or reflecting on them as use-
valuable those institutions might be made, the greater
ul
was the shame if they were suffered to be abused. His
hpUf nisiveltieinsprttsleieitratuytewinolttn:so.
bthat
r dhhcaeehtrat
dahiecin
proceededLhadeds
is
assigned to such offices. The lion. Member for the
his returns, and the authority on which he had made
that
te w
iftohuonudte
goingd.
returns were. in every case accurate, and with regard to
that the
correctness
hboeef
the other po.at, that he made no statement unless he
Heto
was prepared to give up the authorities upon which they
uthnedelresntgoothd
of
josmsnitnhgettNeeomblme
commissio❑
of inquiry, he admitted the necessity of such an inquiry,
and was ready to go into it. Under those circum-
stances ho (Mr. Horsman) did not feel it necessary to
proceed with his motion, and would accordingly with-
draw it,
FOREIGN POLICY. •
Mr. URQUHART rose to call the attention of the
House to the relations of this country with Russia, in
reference to the events of the north of Europe. After
some preliminary observations, he said that circum- •
stances had recently taken place in the west of Europe
which caused a senso of insecurity to be connected
with the conduct of the foreign affairs of this country;
and so latetA4 the previous day in Paris a manifes-
tation of public feeling had taken place with regard to
Poland.which hehcmoeived must point out the real sources
of Europe's danger. The ,proposition which he was
about to make was twofold. It was whether the Go-
vernment had neglected that portion of the country's