The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-17 00:00:00

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Viscount PALMERSTON said that the communicaz-N _,,
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lion made from Baron Wessellberg was in his capacity of i;; \
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Minister of Foreign Affairs for the Emperor of Austria,. i..,,,.,1 , ~...-tI.AP--:"
and not as acting under the authority of the,Vicar of theyfig,.,(,*4l`l' "
German empire. As to the second question, the He '''kil- A
,
must see that it would be highly itupropt,e for hith,i e.,-/?:.-' -
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enter into details of the communications which had tames....-1:5. ,
place between himself and the representatives of otlier-7---" '
Governments. 1! :441
The vote was then agreed to, as were the following:-
17,4611. for the salaries and expenses of the Colonial
Department.
29,0001. for the salaries and expenses of the department
of the Board of Trade.

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"4-.4- ii ),,
, • - •4,

On the next vote, 1,5001. as the probable expenses in
the office of the Lord Privy Seal,
Mr. OSBORNE asked why the word " probable" was
introduced in this estimate and not in any of the others..
The Committee on the Miscellaneous Estimates did not
appear to have taken any evidence with respect to this
office, which, he suspected, was almost useless. Had the
word " probable" been introduced because it was in con-
templation to abolish the office ?

Air. PARKER said the establishment of the privy seal
was paid out of the fines received in the office, as far as
they went.

kr. OSBORNE said he was not speaking of the es-
tablishment, but of the office itself.

Mr. PARKER was understood to say that a Com-
mittee appointed by the Treasury was now sitting to in-
quire into the mode of conducting the business of the
office. At present a very minute and elaborate series of
processes was carried on in that office with respect to
patents, by which much time was lost. Great improve-
ments might be made, and an alteration in the duties of
the office was under the consideration of the Committee ;
the only difficulty was that there were certain parties
who were entitled to fees.

Colonel SIBTHORP charged the Government with
iniquity in hurrying on the estimates. He would have
a report of all the public servants who were at work ;
for idle men did no good.—(Laughter.) He should like
to have a return of the number of days on which the
Lord Privy Seal had attended to his office, where he had
been for the last twelve months, and what he had been
doing abroad. He was for paying working men and not
absentees, and would have the Lord Privy Seal's salary
proportionally reduced.
Mr. OSBORNE had ao objection to offer to the Lord
Privy Seal being abroad, for he thought the Noble Lord
had made a most triumphant defence of his conduct.
He only wished to know why the wording of the esti-
mate was different from the others.

Mr. PARKER said he only spoke from memory, but
he had no doubt the words were the same as had been
used on former occasions.

Colonel SIBTHORP said a man in office ought to be
able to say at once what was the fact; if he could not
answer everything he was good for nothing.—(Laughter.)
There was a general disposition to smuggle everything
through.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the estimate was the same as
last year, and there was no intention to abolish the office.
If the fees did not amount to 3,000/., it would be made
up out of the vote.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote, 15,0001. for the office of Paymaster-
General, including the salaries and expenses of the Ex-
chequer-bill-office.
Dr. BOWRING said this office was one of the best
conducted of the public departments; all the books
were regularly balanced every year. Ile wished to ask
whether, after the House had affirmed the principle of
having all payments out of the revenue to pass through
the House, the Government was prepared to adopt the
principle, as the only security for a proper application of
the revenue?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
should endeavour gradually to carry out that principle,
as far as it could be applied to the public business,
though he did net admit what the Hon. Gentleman had
stated, that it was the only means of obtaining security
for the proper application of the revenue.
After a few words from Colonel Sibthorp, Mr. Hume,
and Mr. Goulburn, the vote was agreed to.
The next vote was 7,3001. for salaries and expenses
in the department of Comptroller-General of the Ex-
chequer.
Colonel SIBTHORP said he had moved some time
ago for a return of the duties of the Comptroller of the
Exchequer, who he imagined had' no control at all.—
(Laughter.) This salary of 2,0001. a year was one of
the most horrible jobs that existed. He thought it was
a toss-up between the Comptroller and the Deputy-
Comptroller, whose attendance was pretty nearly on a
par. The fact was, the deputy was the working man,
and he was most indefatigable and attentive. The
comptroller himself was about .six months at his office,
but the deputy did all the work. It was his intention
to move to bring in a Bill that the Noble Lord (Mos-
teagle) should be removed from the office of comp-
troller, and the duties given to the deputy-comptroller,
connecting them in some way with the Bank of England.
In the present state of the House it was :hopeless to di-
vide, but he should protest against this as a gross job
and a humbug.
Dr. BOWRING said that in another session he
should move Silo abolition of the Exchequer altogether;
for, in the way in which the business was conducted,
the Exchequer, instead of exercising any control, was
nothing but an incumbranco. The Exchequer merely
indorsed what the Treasury recommended, and then
drew on the Bank of England for what was required.
This was no security whatever to the revenue. On the
other hand, when money had to be paid into the Bank
to the credit of the revenue, ,the Exchequer required
so many documents to be prepared and so many stops
to be taken, that it was rendered a most complex
matter. This applied to the case of fees, the receiver of
which stated that he had the greatest difficulty in getting
the money into the Bank. Unfortunately the salary of
the Comptroller of the Exchequer, 2,0001., was not
voted by toe House, but was paid out of the consolidated
fund. This was an anomaly which ought to be put an
end to. Ho implored the Government to take these
matters into consideration during the recess.
Mr. GOULBURN said he feared that three months
experience on the estimates Committee had given some
of its members very little insight into the offices into
which they had inquired. The practice was this: orders
for payment were made by the Treasury, and it was the
duty of the Exchequer to see that those orders were in a
perfectly legal form. In several instances while he was
in office irregularities had been detected. Ho thought it
absurd to suppose that these duties might be discharged
by the Bank of England.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 2,6801. for salaries and expenses of the
State Paper-office.

Mr. OSBORNE asked what the Committee meant by
recommending "a fusion" of this office with the Record-
office. Did they mean the office should be burnt ?

Dr. BOWRING said ho was not responsible for the
literary beauties of the report; but the Committee thought
that the offices might advantageously be brought together.
Sir G. GREY thought it important that a distinction
should be kept up between the papers of the State-paper-
office and those of the Public Record-office, however ad-
vantageous it might be to place them under the same
management.
Colonel SIBTIIORPE suggested that the office should
be called!" the waste-paper-office."—(Laughter.)
Mr. P. HOWARD spoke of the great assistance
which persons engaged in literary pursuits derived from
the public records.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 3,5401., for the expenses of the Eccle-
siastical Commission.
Dr. BOWRING asked if the Government were pre-
pared to give effect to the recommendations which the
Committee had made on this head.
Sir G. GREY said that they must take time to con-
sider, before giving any distinct pledge on this subject.
Vote agreed to.
On the next vote, 236,0001. for the administration of
the poor-laws,
Col. SIBTHORP complained that this was an in-
crease of 26,0001. on last year.
Mr. HUME thought that 236,000/. was an enormous
sum for the mere administration of the poor-law, mad
that it ought to be reduced.—(Hear.)
Mr. OSBORNE said the vote showed that the system
of centralisation was more expensive than that of local
management.—(Hear.) The expense for the adminis-
tration of the Scotch poor-law only amounted to 3,8607.
He should like to know whether the Scotch poor were
well looked after?
Mr. ELLIOT said they were not so well looked after
as they ought to be.—(Hear.)

_
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the expenses of the
auditors, schoolmasters, schoolmistresses, and medical
officers had nothing to do with the general administra-
tion of the poor-law, though they were included in the
vote. It was very unfair to suppose that the increase
had been caused by the centralisation.
After a few words from Captain PECRELL and .Mr.
MIINTZ
Lord'EBRINGTON said that it had been made matter
of complaint that the medical officers were underpaid;
now as only half of that expense was paid by the State,
any increase of it must involve a corresponding increase
on the part of the guardians. The number of school,
masters and schoolmistresses were inadequate to the
demand, and consequently it was necessary to pay higher
salaries.
Mr. BRIGHT complained of the special expense, of
inspectors.
Mr. C. BULLER said the salary of inspectors was
7001., and they were paid a guinea a day for expenses.
supposition t
however,l ie t
considering 1 h
eyresid etdheinlatoeunr
theinspectors -
dTohea.tlwt ahadso nh
been
were
e fu
put to, that a salary of 1,0001. was
necessary not too large. It appeared to him to
have two scales of salary. Tho
snrtw be
inspectors ssa r t o
werey
thetahpeporoinetxepdenastes. reducegreatd
scablsee of
of o
ceno l.
central Yaeuathr9oribtyesiwdaseg to keep up a system of inspection over the administration
of the law, and establish a focus from which information
could be derived with respect to the law.
Mr. BRIGHT said that there were 11
salaries which amounted to 11,0001. inspectors
Bnustietet°aprpsewariethd
that 7,5151. was
es . paid
l in addition for travelling and inci-
dental expenses. That was a great deal more than a
guinea a day.
Mr. BULLER said that the usage of the office was to
allow a guinea a day for personal expenses, and the ex-
i pensos of locomotion besides. lie thought that the sys-
tem which had been hitherto adopted was a bad one, ad
all he could do was to establish a new one for the future.
After a few words from Mr.OSBORNE,
Mr. GLADSTONE said that the Right Hon. Gentle-
ma had appointed three new inspectors, and ho should
like to know whether he allowed them the guinea a
day ?
Mr. C. BULLER did not wish to propose any altera-
tion, but he considered that there would be a difficulty
in consequence of the arrangements which he had made
being too economical.—(Laughter.) lie had proposed
that the new inspectors should take office at 5001. a year,
A instead of 7001,, and with no allowance of a guinea a