The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-23 00:00:00

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standing order, which was also do
übted by other Hon. Mem- that that would not reduce the amount of labour. nor the re-
hers, he thought that Mr. O'Brien ought to h' eve the benefit I muneration, but, on the contrary, an adance
of the doubt, and was entitled to his lit vraiion frodn confinement. ! in acme branches of female labour.it would
cause
He felt that thisv was
Sir R. PEEL said that the Right Hon. Br e onet who had I most contradictory, fur be could not see how the advance in
preceded receded him in
as histo the remar
true ks, had not said the .t there was con- ' wages was to result, asltbour was not increased—the quantity
sdoubt construed, of the order, but he of work would riot be more: In another part of the
observed that there was doubt on the 7-merits of the case. Honourable Member's speech, he was found statire,
He thought that if there was any difficult*/ at all it existed in I that if the diminution of the hours of labour should be
the interpretation of the words "be '.appointed in standing calculated to reduce wages, the working classes were spite
order." The words meant that the Com etaittese was in existence. 1 wilting to take their share of the injury. The Hon. Member
y I wouldhave it that the BM was not calculated to reduce wages;
The House of Commons, for the purpo ea of insuring regularity
in its proceedings had placed the rules, to be determined by its l but this was a most vague calculation, and he would prove it
standing orders out of its own . power to alter, or to by a reference to Adam Smith, who was a great authority on
interfere with, except by repeating the order. There such subjects. The Hon. Member then react an extract from
were instances
receding regmation in ',which , tbe s
House of Commons Adam Smith to prove the fallacy of the arguments of the Hot.
had, by a P hot Ind themselves to Member for Olaham. He begged to tell the supporters of
abide by the standing order. H e would take a this measure that he was not one of those who was at all in-
case which appeared tone hi
to po,„ess some analogy dined to regard the reduction of a penny or even a halfpenny
to the present. It was one of the standit Cs orders that every per yard upon shirting stuffs as a matter to be slighted, but it
private Bill not being the Royal Bill shw,uld be referred to a appeared to him that those who supported this Bill did not seem
Committee of Selection. How was that tee he decided? He to know what it was they were supporting—they did not seem
apprehended it could not be settled by the question in the to understand the principles of the measure. The Nob•e Lord,
House. As a matter of course the matter would be referred the Member for Newark, had found fault with the Right Hon.
to a Select Committee, which would not he refused unless the Gentleman opposite for dealing with facts and figures in illus-
standing order was specifically repealed. So, in the present trating his case, and appeared to think it was what no man
case, it was not a question whether Mr. Smith O'Brien ought ()weft to do ; but let him remind the House that in dealing
to be excused because he had refused to ob,sy an order of the with this question they should bear in rec Ilection that it in-
House. If the Hon. Members of the Ilosise thought the volved the welfare of more than half a million of people, of a
authority of the House had been sufficiently vindicated, why vast amount of property, and of the interests of the reanufactu-
then release him at once by a special order. But to say that revs; and let him then ask were they not to have a due regard
the present was a doubtful case, and that they should slink out for facts and figures ? He could tell them that if they
ofa compliance with the standing order in order to shake hands bad not they would only involve themselves in irre-
with Mr. Smith O'Brien would be derogatordeo the dignity of trievable mischief by a bungling piece of legislation.
that. House. Another principle which an Hon. Member near him had
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL did not think the comparison of broached, was that capital and labour were antag nistic powers
the Right Hon. Gentleman did
n good. He did think the —that was the doctrine of his Hon. Friend, but he begged to
character of the present debate was calculated to have a very tell him that before he had enunciated it, he should have read
bad effect in Ireland. It would be as well to endeavour to Adam Smith, in which he would find it laid down, that as
conciliate the feelings of the people of Ireland, and not to exas- labour derived its remuneration from capital, the one was
Aerate them by endeavouring to explain away doubtful words. necessary to the existence of the other, and here was an in-
The proper course to be adopted would have been to allow Mr. stance of it--here, in this country, millions of capital were in-
Smith O'Brien the benefit of the doubt, in order that he might vested ,in manufactures, for the production of which large
be liberated from confinement. masses of the people were necessarily employed. This was a
Sir GEORGE GREY made a few observations, which fact and a principle, and it would be
neither wise nor judicious
were inaudible in the gallery. to interfere with it. Let care be taken how they were deprived
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said the Hon. Member for Devon- of their foreign market, for it was quite clear, that without the
port had expressed an opinion that there could be no doubt as foreign market they could not employ their people at home,
. to the common sense construction of the standing order. Other and even now it was only by producing a superior article, and
• Hon. Members had corroborated that opinion. With reference by having cheap labour, that they were enabled to rival foreign
to the observations of the Hon. Member for Cork, there was no manufactures.—( Hear, bear.) In fact, the attempt at
doubt the construction of the standing order might be improved, legislation on this subject only showed that those
but as there was no doubt as to the real meaning of the order, who attempted it did not understand the question at all.—
he should certainly oppose the motion. (Hear, hear.) Hon. Members had stated authorities in sup-
.
to Mr.
ecide WATSON
a stand
said,
ding when
ortder he House
which was
the had no better support than those, they had no support at all ;
quencei were of a nature that affected the liberty of the but, on the contrary, they were practically undermining the
subject, it behoved them to be very careful before they came best interests of the country.—( Hear, hear.) He begged to
to any decision as to its real construction. He had serious tell the House that this Ten Hours' Bill was identical with the
doubts as to the construction which had been put upon it. system of the combinations and strikes so common in the manu-
He must give his vote in support of the motion, because he was factoring towns, and of which Hon. Members who supported
not satified that the meaning of the order was sufficiently this Bill knew nothing whatever. By that system, at present
clear fur him to give a proper vote on an occasion when the what he would call the tyrannical interference of the overseers
consequences might be attended with punishment of a harsh with the masters was such that the management of the con-
nature.
terns was, for the present at least, in the hands of the men.
The House then divided, when there appeared— Some of their resolutions were most absurd, and were to this
For the motion
Against it
Majority against Mr. S. O'Brien's release
Mr. SHAW gave notice that he would persist in the motion that those two wandered into the agricultural districts,
of which he had given notice for Monday next, namely, that and became outcasts or dissolute characters, while the
the group on which Mr. O'Brien was selected to serve having system of intimidation amongst the men was so great, that
terminated its labours, that Hon. Membershould be discharged threatening letters were as rife there as in Tipperary. Another
from custody. result of their s,ystem was, that where a man could earn from 5/.
Mr. O'CONNELL was understood to say that, under those to 6/. per wersk, by working every day, they now earned only
circumstances, he should refrain from pressing on the attention from 50s. to 60s. If such, then, was to he the result of this
of the House the motion which he had intended to make that pernicious system in one town, what would it be when it had
night for Mr. O'Brien's discharge. spread to all the others? In fact it would be better for all the
THE TEN HOURS' BILL—ADJOURNED DEBATE. masters to combine for a universal free trade, now that the
The order of the day for the adjourned debate on the second, great eaonopoly in food had been removed, than submit to this.
reading of this Bill having been read, He could tell the House that they were too much in the habit
Mr. WAKLEY presented a petition from the town of Not- of ander-rating the pernicious effects upon the minds of the
tingham, in which the petitioners stated that the present fec.. reorkmen, of many of the debates that had taken place in that
tory system was most pernicious to the health and morals of II House ; they little knew the amount of poison instilled into the
children; that it produced premature death, was most dange-. i minds of those men by those speeches, and for which the em-
rous to the manufacturing portion of the community, and they players would have to pay. The results of this system of corn-
therefore prayed the House to enact the Ten Hours' Bill, bination was to leave the town of Norwich in a state of desola-
Mr. G. BANKES then rose and said, that in giving his sup- tion and ruin, or if it still retained any vestiges of its former
port to the principle which was now under consideration, and prosperity, it was owing to the enterprise of a few; but he
m opposing the amendment which had been proposed by the would just give an instance of the feeling entertained in that
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home De- town towards the masters, and he should say it was one of the
partment. he was aware that he was bound in the first place to most horrible exhibitions he had ever heard of.
show that the princip'se of this Bill was consistent with the wel- A manufacturer having died, his body was
fare, the interests, and safety of the community at large. He brought to Norwich to be interred—it was met by
was aware also tint it was incumbent on him to show that this a large body of the workmen, who, believing that he had in-
Bill, while it proposed to confer a benefit on the operative classes, jured them, followed the funeral to the churchyard, uttering
would not prOduce at the same time on those classes any injury the most foul imprecations. Now, he begged to tell the
to preponderate over that benefit. It was incumbent also upon House that there was no remedy for this but time. The Bill
him to resaintain and to prove, as he thought he should, that the now before the House was certainly no remedy ; on the con
princidate of this Bill would not necessary occasion any injury teary, it was a step
the gds step in the wrong direction
to tho employers of those operatives for whose benefit it was —and he should give the second reading of it his most
brought forward.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped he should be able strenuous opposition. He had heard it said that this question
to show that whilst the operatives received a benefit, neither involved one of importance to the present Government—that
they nor their employers would receive any harm. He thought this was a critical time to oppose it—that it was regarded as a
that it would be unwise and unsafe to reject this measure ; and great national measure, and that it was probable the Govern-
when he used those terms he was far from wishing them to be ment might be defeated on it ; but he could only say, that if
taken in the same light as some Hon. Members had done during they shoo dbe defeated, he would have the honour of sharing
the course of the session, when other topics were brought in that defeat.---( Cheers. )
under their consideration. The danger to which he referred Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said that his Hon. Friend
was one of a very different kind. It was the danger of who had just sat down had charged his friends around, that
destroying the physical energy, and the moral character of in supporting the measure which was then before the House
those with respect to whom they were about to legislate.— they were making themselves parties to a great party move-
(Hear, hear.) The number of children employed latterly in ment, and that the only interest entertained on this question
factories had greatly increased, whilst the number of adults was by the Hon. Gentlemen on the benches near him.
As
bad proportionably decreased, Those young persons were for the charge made against him by the Hon. Gentlemen op-
growing up to become adult labourers in their turn, and they posite, he could refer them to the corn-law question, for
he
would find that there was nor sufficient to absorb that number, thought that, during the debate on the second reading of the
and the consequence would be that they must seek Corn Bill, the opposite side of the House was en-
-to earn their livelihood from some other sources tirely deserted, and not one single gentleman could
of employment. Let the House then endeavour to secure be seen sitting on the Opposition benches. He had
to such a population some other employment, which would be however, right to for Hon. around m
preserving them as honest and industrious members of the which
hea could notsay say for himselfF,rien that,ds far fromhi beingthat a
State. They would find, however, under the present factory party question with them, the great majority of his friends
system, the education of the younger persons had been so much were supporters of a similar measure two years ago. In the
neglected, and their physical powers so diminished, that they year 1844 his Hon. Friends around him, he might say almost
were totally unfit to enter into any other employment than that in a body, supported Lord Ashley's Ten Hours' Bill, and he
in which they were brought up. In their youth, there had should bite to know what right the Hon. Member for Sheffield
been a total neglect of the instilment of religious truths and had to charge his friends with supporting the measure from
!priMoral discipline, as regarding the persons employed in fac- party views? It there were any party in the House, who had
es.; and when t,'ney grew up, the necessary consequence was a better title to claim for themselves an honest and disinterested
mat they were wnfit tor any industrious or honest employm. ent. course on that subject, it was that composed by the Gentlemen
d_The.Legislattre had, he believ.ed, provided for the education of sitting near him. The Hon. Gentleman had said that it was
he younger classes of operatives, namely, of shoes) under 13 very easy to purchase cheap popularity by joining in this
• Years ge, who now only worked six hours a day ; but were humanity-cry ; and they retorted the charge, by asking who
(than to be told that education had ceased at 13 years of age ? had supported the cry for cheap bread, in the question
Hear, hear.) He appealed to those who heard him, many of on the repeal of the corn-laws ? In this measure,
whom were fathers, whether education ceased, or had aps they were not joining in the humanity-cry, nor were
provased to anything like perfection, at 13 years of age? Was they risking all the great interests of the country.
Met that a period when something else was springing op If there was any question on which they might be said to have
lossides the good seed which had been sown Was not proceeded with great caution it was on this question. Two
that the time when there Was springing up seeds of a years ago they reduced the hours of labour, and what had been
nature opposed to religion. And
did they not kn,,w that the the result of the experience of the two years which had since
cultivation of the mind consistenot merely in what was elapsed? Had this destroyed the cotton trade? Had they
sown, but in what was to be eradicated? seed that peried he reduced the wages of :he labourer? or had they diminished
took to be the most important with regard. to the cultivation of the export trade ? Far from it. The cotton trade, both in
the human mind. He alluded to the period between thirteen the export trade and the home consumption, had greatly in-
creased in the year 1845, and they hail reason to believe so
and eighteen years of age. It was, therefore, safe and whole.
some to pass this Bill, and it was dangerous to 'eject it. had the wages of the operatives. Where was the danger or the
They had been told, in the course of the debate which had risk of a further extension of the principle? The were not
lately occurred in that House, that the people of Lancashire treading on untried ground, they had gone cautiously to work.
- and the manufacturing interests were to govern Great Brita:n. They had tried the reductien of the hours of labour to twelve
He admitted that those districts were the very life and heart of hours in 184/, and they
the income ; and, taking the words of Hon. Members, he by five flours aweek. nTl7ewreasked to reduce the hours in 1846
was another consideration mixed
would say that they should take care that the blood which
up with this Bill, a great measure had just passed this House,
flowed through the veins of the people of that portion of the and should that measure become the law of the coun-
kingdon, and their morals were preserved in a moral condition. try, there was great reason to believe that a num-
The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home
h er of unskilled artisans from trades, amongst the
Department had entirely misrepresented the opinions of the late agricultural labourers, would be thrown into the market.
Sir Robert Peel on the factory question—( Cries of They must feel that in those trades, now the subject of legisla-
" Hear, hear")—because, although the Bill passed in tion, some protection and some division of labour would he
his time
Ten row
Hours' was orsly an Eleven
.Hours' Bill, he was yet inrequired. He admitted that the same quantity of work could
favour ei aHe did not think not be done in ten hours as could be done in twelve hours •
that the Rigttst Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth of that there could be no doubt; but, at the same time, be
was then •anfriendly to the Eleven Hours' Bill. He had did not admit that there would be one-sixth more work done
then calked the elder Sir Robert Peelitness inansudeLort of in twelve hours than, could be done by the same bands in ten
his 'lbws. He would now call another" aenwtl be- hours, especially as they were dealing with persons under 18
lier,ed his testimony would carry with them considerable weighs, years of age. The on. Member for Sheffield said that no
K tole and all his connexions were tar
el H
y connected with mantras _such regulations were made as regarded the agricultural inte-
factures, he meant the Member for Oldham.—( Hear, hear, ) relst, and the labourer engaged in agriculture—for the best of
That Hon. Gentleman said, that if. his support of the present
, hadal reasons, no such regulations were required. The agricul-
measure would bring ruin upon the manufacturers, he would tural
onelabhourerr had twe:ve hours of labour, out of which they
be bringing ruin upon himself.—(Hear, hear.) He tolodftthheomsewinter
rtfor dinner, and half an hour for breakfast ; and
however, that it would not ruin his interests, nor any 1° the w
time
forrimmecialtsbey
Thhaderremlwyetreen
limitedhours labour, having
iabour thefor
same
who were engaged in manufacture. So far from any diminu-
all artisans not em to ed in mannfacture. Their time was by
titan taking place, there had been an increase in cotton manufac-
custom reduced to teyn hours, afnd they only wished for those
tore sin.te 1819, when a different system prevailed. He had
labourers under eighteen heeossatmome,kind of labour
other witnesses to call of the same description, whose testimony
was most valuable. He had the evidence of the Hon. Member which full-grown men, byyeparrafsocortic
teshgaeen :I
eflrarui n the West In..
for Sunderland, who spoke the other night, and that of other to. Had they not legislated
dies? Had they not limited the time o were entitled
gentlemen ; he did not think that their evidence would
unialthy
be counterbalanced. He had other witnesses also. He had And was thmeoasipthoefretohfeotruVrentstanlnudfaieestormieosr,einfceowird to nine hours?
the operatives themselves. In the county which he represented than the at
ourwhichhorchildren
he felt it to be his duty to collect all the information he could laboured. It had been said in the course of this debate
by the
Upon the subject,'
and the result of that investigation had been Hon. Member for Paisley, that by a reduction of tliel;
a most decided conviction on his part of the justice of the pre- labour from twelve to ten hours, they would be educing the
vrieoaseon t
sent measure. It was said that the operativesxhih hadit n matte
no
cotton manufacture, to the extent of the whole of the' homet
strikes on the present question, and had consumption of this country. That statement was not founded
The Bill for cruelty facture of this country amounted to one-seventh of the goods
why their demands should be acceded to..
thisimported,and was
country would just exceed in value four millions sterling ;
show how little
but it was taken up by a gentleman who fina y carried it. He
Mentioned these circumstances, in order to
Baronet, was there any man in that country who believed that its arguments of this kind, urged by the Right Hon.
should be attended to. The Hon. Member for Montrose saidto years since Mr. Huskisson had said that he had taken the
that if they passed the Bill, the operatives would be the first greatest pains to ascertain the real facts upon this point, and
desire that it should be repealed. Well, if that was so, they the result of his inquiries was, that the home consumption of
would be happy to do so.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Ward.) the cotton in England in the year 1823 had amounted
e could not see the danger of such' an experiment.—( Hear, to 32,000,000/. sterling. The export of cotton goods in the
If he established the point that a very considerable benefit to year 1844 amounted to no more than 25,000,0001., including
the public would accrue from the passing of the measure, he cotton yarn. If that were so, and if the Hon. Gentleman the
was entitled to go to those views of the subject on which they Member. for Glasgow, who ought to be well informed on the
were all agreed, that if it were for the public good to effect the. subject, was. right,. that there were but 3a millions of cotton
object he proposed, that it was their duty at once to give it goods used in this country, with their population, this would be
Canada,, the consumption
their assent.—( Hear, hear.) They heard the other day, in but half-a-crown a-head. In the
Indian possessions, dividing
the speech of an Hon. Member, of the great increase was 7s. per head, and in our West
in the demand for the Bible among the operatives ; the value of the co:ton by thethe
populastion in 1840, it would appear
why, then, he would be an advocate for giving them time to that the consumption in West lndies amounted to 11. 6s.
read it. It was true they had been silent, and if the measure per head. Was it not ridiculousto suppose that the popula-
was rejected he trusted that they would continue so. tion of this empire, consumed but at the rate of half.a.crown a
saidrepresented, he
Mr. WARD
Ahfeenmthheeryssafowr
the people of Sheffield, but he would certainly admit that he this measure supported by great men, t
did not represent
was not a convert their opinionr upon the. subject,. because he Oldham, and Southwark, it was rather too much to charge
the measure, n
to the doctrines contained in the preamble them. with supporting this measure to purchase cheap pope-
ofor was he nor ould he ever by an humanity cry. This measure would be for the
The Nolile Le;el be aedfemhiasgogruine... lasinterestlty of the manufacturing classes, and the change would
()ted Mr. Carlyleh in
wasdheefence
treadingP on not be made too suddenly. The children in the factories re-
dangerous ,but he wouldlu remind him
atdeat,t 0 dangerous ground, for ne of Carlvle's quired more protection as the cotton trade increased, for then
opinions respecing corn, for on no subject hadn he written with it, was that the millowners committed the greatest number of
to much force and consistency. He would be moat anxious to o'rences against their operatives. The Bill would benefit that
be convinced that the opinions which lie held on this subjectclass, and for this reason he should give his support to the Bill,
were those of the Noble Lord • but he convinced
was not so , Lor
of the o era-
Ind he felt it his duty to express' his
not legislate
The Hon. allow a Member who represented a great portion p
Member laid down that if they could
should legislate for as many as they
opinion on this Bill two year, since, to
noneicitslate for all they tives and manufacturing, labourers, and who had not had an
andstn hei said if opportunity of giving his there weo no injury done to any interest the
concede the measure he sought He perfect]; coincided once
uponconsiderable, feeling of envy those who,
garded with a consi
make a short trespass their time. He owned that he re-
the expression, "your if is a great peacemaker," for if all the
thin,gs which the Hon. Gentlemen assumed were true, why,
I truth of their own opinions.
he (Mr. Ward) would say, pass the measure by all means.' ilrtablef assurance as to t n
of n the other side of the question, could feel a cone-
That was one of the results of this experimentalising on the wr;icerevees viewed with much doubt,
r one he woue.w.. .
confessed that he looked on both sides of the question, and
queetion. oral did not deny the right of Parliament to legis- and h iatever couts ,
e confessed much misgivinec. WI • e °it'
late for the pction of those who were unable to help House might adopt, he looked with much misgiving to the
themseosee; but he objected to the interference with adult consequences of any
rash
labour. If they could show that women could do without em. feel an inexpressible relief or premature measure. He should
ef only to be sure that he was right,
ployment, then, indeed, he would be one of the first to support but to be sure that he thought that he was right ; for on the
such a proposition. however, was not the case, for he one hand he was ready to admit to some degree the re resenta-
rotn o
believed that there was not a more helpless creature than a tions put forhwtartdhbeyy
ttohoekp
rathererasn andex
aswugp,proart supporters the
o- r Bill,th e
poor woman without friends to assist her ; and instead of Par- but he thoug
llament interfering' females employing their case. He did not believe, that fa
to prevent from -
factory labour in the average
industry, it would be better, if possible, to interfere so as to number of instances, thoueh it might be •
be regarded as severe or - wearing, could
ensure her a proper amount of labour. An interference, such ,
.injurious. He did not believe that
as the present, would have the effect of reducing the female in the average condition of the factory labourers, though it
working classes to the miserable pittance of slot) labour. He was not so good as if they had greater enjoyment—(Heart
considered that they were already sufficiently trammeled by the hear)—greater exercise, and time, there was so much effect
combinations of the working men, who shut them Got from produced upon their health. Their real condition and health
many trades, How was it on the continent—how was it at depended much more on the proprietor of the mill, and the
Rosen, and other places ? At those places it was well known arrangements he might adopt with respect to the cleanliness and
that the most respectable portion of the female population— ventilation than upon the hours of work. In all respects
the dauehters of the most respectable middle classes, were the master of these mills bad more intelligence than
employed in factories. Well, then, there was nothing of a they usually received credit for. As an instance he
Ten Hours' Bill known there. Labour was not restricted, referred them to many mercantile houses who were distinguished
and the results were not injurious, but, on the contrary, the for their efforts in the cause of the working classes He was
good effects were most apparent in the condition of that class sometimes ready to admit that the condition of the men,
of Persons. The Hon. Member for Oldham said that the Bill women, and children, engaged in the manufacturing labour,
Was to be a Ten Hours' Bill, and no compromise, He said would deri,-e great benefit from shorter hours of labour, He