The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-23 00:00:00

NINGIJr IT N 21; 18461:

desire, on all occasions, and mi-cler all Governmenti, to supporE
those measures which he thought most beneficial to the country.
Judge Perrin, at the last Spring assizes in Ire!ande'speaking on
the conduct of the magistrates and the grand juries appointed
for the special occasion, for carrying the provisions of an Act
into execution for the benefit of the people, and who had re-
fused to do so, said that they had been guilty of a-high misde-
meanour and were subject to a prosecution. He would, therefore,
impress upon English Members the danger of placing such a
power in the hands of the magistrates of 'Mind, who had
themselves set the la* at defiande.
Mr. SEYMER said, when he recollected that the Noble
Lord (the Member for London) had proposed a Bill of a similar
nature, and that the protection party had voted for its first
reading, it appeared to him that the time had arrived when, by
a strong muster of all parties, it was hoped to place •har Ma-
jesty's Government in a minority; and the party who eat upon
the Opposition benches, on those at present occupied by the
Treasury. And taking all these facts into consideration, be did
not think the Secretary. at- War, when he reproached the Noble
Lord (Lord Bentinch ) for the inconsistency of the course
Which he had pursued. end a when he excused the party led by
the Noble Member for London, he had been quite fair in his
observations, for he had not been equally just. The Noble
Member for Lynn and his party had changed their votes with
a view te defeat the Ministry, who, they think have nut acted
in a 15,00/ ide manner on the qu stion of coercion. But the
Member for London and his party hsd equally changed their
votes for the purpose of defeating the Ministry uncondition-
ally. —(He r, hear.) He would wish far a moment to con-
'
sider what was the nature of the measure on which such great
party divisions were to take place ? or to ask, had Hon. Mem-
bers read tae Bill? for he had some doubts as -to that, always
excluding the Hon. Member who had last ad-
dressed the House, and who had- appeared to have
giien the subject deep attention. But the observations
of some Hon. Members had induced him to beliebe that they
had not read the Bill then before the House. It was not, as
had been asserted, proposed to coerce the whole of Ireland—
the Bill was only a temporary one, and it did not follow that
any one country, or any one parish, should be coerced. When
a n-cessity arose a district might be coerced, but not until then.
Whatever might be the faults of the Government, and he for
one would not justify them, he considered that they had
acted in a just and generous spirit towards Ireland.—( Hear. )
That was his opinion ; and a similar one had been expressed by
the Hon. Member for Cork on the occasion of the Maynooth
Bili ; and such having been the case he was prepared to ac-
cede to the powers proposed to be vested in the Government.
As long as parts of Ireland. remained in such a
state as they were at present they would require a coercion
Bill, and he was of opinion that no Government should be
allowed to hold office which was not prepared to propose such
a Bill in such a state of circumstances ; and if they abused the
powers vested in them, or the people of England and Scotland
saw a desire to oppress Irelaud, they would not permit them to
remain in office, for they would know that if they permitted
such a proceeding their turn would come next. The present
state of things could not be allowed to continue with safety ; if
the people were not protected, they would take the
law into their own hands. They had heard a great
deal about the liberties of Ireland, but he would like
to know what_ amount of liberty existed in Ireland.
He would take any five charges from the list of the state
of crime in Ireland, and he would read them to the. House.
One was a threatening notice to a steward not to collect his
master's rents; another was a notice for a man not to pay a
debt he owed to a certain man, but to his wife, from whom he
had separated ; another was to prevent a man from proposing
for a widow for whom another had proposed.—(A laugh.)
Hon. Members might laugh, but it was no laughing matter.
They could thus see that a steward could not do justice to his
master, nor could a man marry the wife of his choice. They
were told that things wore a better aspect, and that therefore
coercion was unnecessary, but he was disinclined to doubt the
statement, and they knew that former Coercion Bills had been
successful, though they had never been put into operation.
He would ask them how could landed proprietors be expected
to reside on their estates unless they were afforded protection ?
He would support the Government upon the present occasion,
and he could not see the consistency of the course, that,
having voted for protection, he should now be called on to
vote against the Coercion Bill ; in other words to assist in
bringing in a Government more favourable to free-trade than
the present, and which would be strongly urged to take off the
proposed three years of protection which had been afforded.
The Hon. Member for Stockport would, of course, be in the
Government—( Hear, hear)—and he confessed he would not
be sorry to see him there. He (Mr. Cobden) had already
done them all the mischief in his power, and if they were to
have bail measures, why they would have the consolation of at
least having good speeches.—( Hear, hear.) Nothing surprised
him more than the strong party spirit which was evinced at
the present moment by the party to which he had the honour
to belong. When Hon. Members met in the streets, after
the first observation of the heat of the weather, the next ques-
tion was " What will you do on the Coercion Bill ?" " Oh,
I will take the straight course, and vote against the Bill."
( Hear, hear.) The straight course ! as if no other course
was straight. Now, he would be almost inclined to call it the
crooked course, but if his course was allowed to be straight in
supporting the Bill, he would allow the contrary course to be
straight also.—(Hear, hear.) But if his course was not
called; straight, he would be obliged to quarrel—what he most
wished to avoid. Again, if he met in a club-room, he would
be told, .‘ Oh, we count upon so many honest and true men to
defeat the measure." Now, he was not so foolish as to take
offence, but he felt his face getting rather hot—( Hear, hear)—
when such language was used. He was attached to
the principles of protection to British industry, but he
also believed that the present Bill would be
beneficial, and -he would therefore vote for it

He would just instance in the Secretary-at-War, a man who
never took a course but such as was perfectly con=istent with
honourable feeling; and he did so because he knew the Right
Hon. Gentleman ; yet that gentleman, he ventured to say,
would not stick at applying in debate those hard names which
had been made use of by the Hon. Gentleman. The case of
Fox had been introduced in exculpation, but he would answer
that by a single line of the Latin poet—
" Distat eloquentid
Let Hon. Gentlemen imitate Fox in his eloquence, and leave
him alone in his use of hard names and hard
words.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") There was one
sentiment used by the Learned Recorder for Dublin in which
Le coed not concur. Tnal Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had said in effect, that it would be well if her Majesty's pre-
sent Ministers were di, placed by the Noble Lord, because
then they would have no more of those painful scenes, those
hard words, and i.e (Mr. Selmer) thought he added, vitupe-
ration ; hut he (Mr. Soymer) ratl7e: expected that in op-
.positien these hard words, and bard names would be revived.
At the same time, he felt it was the duty of every Memot r
that House, to assuage, as far as possible, all p.2rsonalities,
and the use of hard names.—The Hon. Genii Than sat
down, after stating that he would oppose the amendment of the
Right Hon. B ronet (Sir W. Somerville) opposite.
Mr. C. POWELL said, he never hear 1 opinions expressed
in Parliament, founded more upon ignorance of the condition
of Ireland than those uttered by the Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down. That Hon. Gentleman could not surely have
heard the admirable speech which had been delivered on the
subject by the Member for Oxfordshire. That Hon. Member
had shown to demonstration, in his able speech, that the docu-
ment on which the Hon. Gentleman had rested, the Govern-
ment returns of crime in Ireland, was incorrect, and could not
be relied upon. He had shown that out of the 2,000 cases,
• which was the gross amount stated, 805 were merely threaten-
' ing notices, and 802 of these notices, which were never
followed by injurious acts—he (Mr. Powell) believed had been
got up by the scouts of the police. Instances might be quoted
from the annals of crime in England to parallel what had
taken place in some parts of Ireland ; but he would
not detain the House. He could not imagine a severer
satire on her Majesty's Government than the present
measure. That Government, the strongest that had
existed, came down now, the eighteenth time in the
political history of Ireland, for a coercive measure—a Bill giving
them the command of physical force—a measure to annihilate
the liberties of the people of Ireland. It might be said to him
that the present measure did not apply to all Ireland ; but his
reply was, that it did, if the Lord-Lieutenant chose. Her Ma-
jesty's present Government on this occasion, found Ireland in
1841 in a state of perfect tranquillity, the authorities in the
country had the confidence of the people ; and the present Go-
vernment selected for the highest offices in the administration
of the law, the most obnoxious individuals in the country—indi-
viduals who had for years been in the habit of reviling the
people of Ireland. If there was an obnoxious person in the
provincial localities, they made him a magistrate; and if there
was not such a man in the district, they set about hunting him
up from another quarter ; and having done so, that Govern-
ment came down to Parliament and asked for power

.._ .
to put down the disturbances which had been excited
by these gross abuses. Her Majesty's Government had
endeavoured to represent these disturbances as non-
political. But he thought that the great mass had
withdrawn their confidence from the constituted authorities in

the country, and was not that political ?—( Hear, hear, from
Mr. Sheil.) The repeal agitation had been ccnstrued by an
Hon. Gentleman opposite into high treason. He (Mr.
Powell) though an advocate for the repeal of the union, enter-
tained the strongest wish for the British connexion ; and he
further thought that, repealer as he was, the measures which
he would support would tend more to cement that connexion
than those which had been proposed 1.1 the Hon. Gentleman
who had thought proper to characterise repeal as a dismember-
ment of the empire. Why, for 490 years that connexion had
continued to exist at the same time that there was a separate
Legislature. As he had already said, the returns on which those
fears were founded were incorrect, for out of 2,000, the total
sum, there were 80r mere threatening notices ; and from these
805, only three had been followed by overt acts. Now, as to
these notices, he himself had received a paper, which he
held in his hand, addressed to Mr. Powell, M.P.
Inside there were these words, " Look what comes, death to
the Saxon."—( At least so we understood the Hon. Gentle-
man to read, for he read with great difficulty.) Then followed
a coffin and cross-bones, and these words, " Mr. Powell's sur-
tout. Here is your fate, if you vote for the Coercion Bill."
( Laughter.) Now, he believed that many of these cases were
got up as hoaxes, but many of them were excited by the secret
service money of the Government, which, since their acces-
sion, had been freely distributed among the people of that
country.—( Hear, hear.) He knew it. Many lived by it,
and it was called " doing business ;" and those persons were
known as " Paddy M'Kerrs." He (Mr. Powell) was sure
that the social order might be sufficiently maintained in Ireland
by the ordinary means of law, if these were used by those who
had secured the confidence of the people. That, however, the
present Government had not acquired, and he thought never
would • and he believed further, that their resigiiation would
be hailed by the people of Ireland. Very different would have
been their feelings, if a sentiment uttered by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Oxfordshire had prevailed some time before in that
House, when he asked whether any honest man could, upon
the evidence supplied by her Majesty's Ministers, sanction en-
croachment upon the liberties of the people of Ireland ?
Mr. COLLETT said he would support the second reading
of the measure on the same grounds as the first, for since he
had uttered his opinions on that occasion he had not heard
anything to remove those reasons which he then gave for
so voting. There existed a certain set of robbers, assassins,
and marauders in certain counties In Ireland ; and as soldiers
were sent out to apprehend this class of persons in Naples and
Sicily, he did not see why the same means should not be
adopted in Ireland. For a period of eight years there had
hardly passed a day in which outrages had not been committed.
There had arisen a sympathy with crime which he could not
account for—a sympathy with these roaming assassins. And
why should not the police have the power to suppress it? He
knew that there was a price for crime. He
knew—and it might seem strange to them—that
the price was 21. 10s. for crime when the
man was not shot dead, and 61. when the man was killed.
Would he for a trifling saving of 5001. or 1,0001. per annum,
send 500 men loose upon the country-500 men accustomed to
the use of gunpowder, and weapons of every description ?
(Haar. ) No, he could not do it as a Briton, or as an
Englishman. Let them not be deceived by the temporarY lull
that had occurred, for he believed that if this Bill did not pass ,1
the second reading, there would be riot and exultation at the
failure of a measure which would put a stop to the crimes of li
these marauding assassins. He believed that a temporary
Coercion Bill would be of benefit to the country. He ha t
always felt well disposed towards the Irish, and had done all in
his power for them, but still he thought that this Bill was neces-
sary. The keeping of people in their houses from sunset to
sunrise was not the question. It was the question of whether
there was to be any security for life and property in Ireland—
( Hear, hear )—and they were bound to give protection to people
who were well disposed towards their fellow-countrymen, and
who received nothing but injury in return. He received
accounts of crime and outrage every Monday morning from

Killelue; and hie secret ary had on four occasionieheen stopped,
although he was returning with only half notes. Before he sat
down, he would beg to se.± only one word.' He Was surprised
to find it recorded that he had dissented from the present
measure, but he felt bound to say that he would on this occasion
give his cordial support to her Majesty's Ministers.
Mr. HALSEY said he opposed the Bill upon a -solemn
conviction that the state of crime in Ireland did not afford to
them a sufficient giound.for the introdnetion of such. a mea-.
sure. Did the state of crime in IrelanirshoW -an increase
over former
crimes committed in Ireland, and there appeared a
marked stmpathy for the criminals, but this Bill was a most
irritating as well as a most unconstitutional measure. And
with regard to the intimidation of witnesses, it did not in any
way provide against that evil. The- Bill was . not what it
should be—an enconrag4ment to the people of Ireland to seek
measures of conciliation with their superiors. He did not seek
to put the question on personal grounds, brit he did. conceive
that it was a fair ground of discussion to speak of the'eonduct
of public men. He certainly found fault with the :conduchof
the promoters of this measure, as they had. said that the succeis
of the Corn Bill was dependent on the passing of this mewiere,
He did not see what connexion there could be between_ tom-:
mercial measure, which was to arrive at maturity. ine three-
years, and a temporary and unconstitutional meastere..,
(Hear, hear.) He did not wish to judge of tile un.tivea of her
Maje,ey's Ministers in bringing forward this measure. They -
might have been of opinion that it was necessary for the state
of Ireland, but if they were of such an opinion, why did they
not press it forward at once? for under such circumstances
delay was little short of a crime. Under these circumstances
he should give the Bill his most strenuous opposition.
Mr. V. STUART was not prepare:' to deny, that crime
existel to a frightful extent in Ireland, hat he fully believed
that this Bill was net at all the one likely to suppress it.
orffh telri ere
was
ten ootf omnien dmemberthe
of
people etohialte. v:nhdo, kwwneh adni,dahninogt
kn..w that they bad a. great want of confidence in the laws;
the
ed was the
wthheie ihires
woulden t orpe
restore rtess vtehat confidenceand ? Wereunconstitutional
theine lawsasure
in exist nee with regard to Ireland at all calculated
to restore that confidence ? Did judges
inform tF e
inform them that laws were made for the benefit of soviet
and did their application bear out that fact ? He had seen the;
law prostituted to the worst purposes. He . had seen whole
fami.ies driven out upon the roads, their cottages unroofed,
and their cattle driven away. He had seen them working by
the roadside in the hopes of obtaining redress, not from the
middleman who had turned them out, but from that superior
landlord. These landlords were, no doubt, willing to, redress
the wrongs of their tenants, but they had it not in their
power, under the peculiar systems on which their estates. were
managed. 'there was in geland a most singular feeling With
regard to being galled by unnecessary interference; and the
practice of offering money to obtain evidence was one of the
most mischievous character. The man who was induced to come
forward by such motives was not unnaturally regarded asidegra-
ded man. This Bill would not, in his opinion, answer the ends
for which it was intended. It would produce a temporary
lull, but its permanent effect would be to increase the evils
for the abolition of which it was created. Let them not at-
tempt coercion, but give fair play to those laws calculated to
inspire a confidence in the legislature on the part of the people.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, he had well considered the effect of
this measure now before the consideration of the House, and
without referring to the recent vote he gave in that House,
he would speak of the vote which he should give in accord-
ance with those principles which had always directed his
political career. In accordance with all those principles which
he had derived from a careful study of the business, the science,
and the art of legislation and Government, he was inclined
strongly to believe that all tho e modes of legis-
lation in all those sorts of Bills and Acts
of the present description were mischievous ; because, in
the first place, they were inefficacious in a great measure for
good. They were in as strong a measure efficacious for
evil. If he looked at the situation of the people of Ireland,
and at their past history, still stronger was his feeling that it
was folly and injustice to carry such a measure. He wanted
to know, before he made up his mind how he should vote
upon that occasion, what it was that actuated the protec-
tionist party, headed by the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn,
and the Whig party, led on by the Noble Lord the Member for
the city of London, in givfng their opposition to this mea-
sure. In the first place, then, the Noble Lord the Member
for Lynn, in his speech upon the first reading of the Bill—
which, by the way, he supported—remarked that murders com-
mitted in Ireland would rest upon the heads of those
who delayed the passing of that measure, and yet
ne was now opposing it himself,—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
What was it, then, that had induced the Noble Lord to change
his course? Why, it was because—to take the Noble Lord's own
sentiments—because he had no confidence in the Right Hon.
Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury. The Noble Lard op-
posed the second reading of the Bill, because the Right Hon.
Baronet had done one great thing—because be had relieved
free trade from the shackles of monopoly=because he had car-
ried the Corn-law Bill—because he had done that which the
country desired.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, if the Noble
Lord succeeded in hoisting the Right lion. Baronet from
office, his opposition would be at an end, and he would no doubt
be prepared to support the same measure if it were brought
forward by a monopolist party.—( Hear, hear.) Well, but what
was it, he wanted to know, that induced the Liberals to support
it ? Before he could make up his mind as to the vote he should
give, he must satisfy himself that it was dictated by no vindic-
tive or party spirit. —( Hear, hear.) Now, then, let him recall
to the recollection of the House, that in 1832 a
certain Bill, which literally was a disgrace to the
statute-book, was brought in and passed by a Liberal ad-
ministration. What was it that had worked so great a change
in the opinion of the Noble Lord since that period.—(Hear,
hear.) Again in the year 1832, a very rigorous measure of
the sort, which contained the well-known domiciliary visita-
tion clause was passed by an overwhelming majority, acting
under the advice of the Noble Lord ; and in 1835, Lord Mor-
peth, who was then Secretary for Ireland, introduced another
Coercion Bill for Ireland, though, as compared with the Bill of
18:12, it was an exceedingly modified measure. Now, Lord
Morpeth on introducing that Bill made .some remarkable"de-
(Aerations. The Noble Lord, for instance, admitted that
crime was on the decrease in Ireland, but nevertheless the
country was in such a state that•it could not be governed with-
out the aid of a Coercion Bill, with far more stringent provi-
sions than were to be found in the Bill then.
under discussion.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned
Member for Cork (Mr. O'Connell) one would have supposed,
after listening to his speech against the present Bill, must have •
opposed the Bill of 1835. But what did' Mr. O'Connell say,
while the measure of 1835 was under discussion?—( Hear, hear. )
Why, the Hon. and Learned Gentlernanl after admitting that
the measure was highly calculated to reduce the amount of
agrarian outrage in Ireland, went on to say, " The present
measure, if he rightly understbod. it, was to prevent parties
being out at night without being able to give an account of
themselves, or for unlawful purposes; and, if so, he could only
add that he was convinced its operation would produce, the
greatest benefits in Ireland. He only wished, in fact, that its
provisions had gone a little further." Mr. Grattan, who was
another member of the Irish party, on the same occasion, ob-
served, " That it was impossible to let things go on in Ireland
without something being done." True, the observation was rather
ambiguous, but there was no mistaking the speech of the Hon.
and Learned Member for Cork.—(Hear, hear.) He wanted
to know what actuated the Hen. and Learned Member for
Cork, in his present opposition to a measure of a much more
modified character than the one of 1835.—(Hear, hear.) He
now came to the Noble Lord the Member for the City of
London, and before he could make up his mind as to the vote
he should give, he wanted to know what it was that had pro-
duced so extensive a change in his opinions upon the subject
of Coercion Bills.—(Hear, hear.) He well knew that when
the Noble Lord returned to power, in 1835, Lord Besborough
was to have been sent to Ireland upon the expressed under-
standing that the Coercion Bill should be proceeded with with-
out delay.—(Hear, hear. )
Lord J. RUSSELL—That is not true.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK continued. He must take the Noble
Lord's denial, but still he gathered this fact from the history
of Coercion Bills, that this was the first time the Noble Lord
ever opposed one. Now, under all these circumstances,
before he could make up his mind to oppose the Bill, he
must be satisfied those who opposed it were consistent in
their opposition. From the extraordinary combination of
circumstances in the opposition, he found the votes of Gen-
tlemen voting against the Bill who never voted in that way
before. He found that the object of the one was to throw
out the Administration, while the other was actuated partly
by the same object, but principally with the view of facilitating
their return to office. He could not help looking at both their
oppo,itions in a similar light; and he thoUght the opposition
of the Noble Lord the Member for London was most unfair.
It was urged at an inopportune time, but with- opportune ef-
fect—urged with the view of unseating the present Admi-
nistration, while there was not the remotest hope of a better
coming in.—(Hear, hear.) Brit he could tell the Noble
Lord that he • was not in a position to govern this country,
and if he succeeded in obtaining office, it would prove the de-
struction of the Liberal party. —( Hear, 'hear.) He believed,
in fact, that it would produce a recurrence of the events of
1640, 1841, and 1842, when the Whig party continued in
power for no beneficial purpose—brought in measures only to be
a Government losing credt
rejected—a party in fact w.tivrthitthheevmerinyoortihtyerfooratliotsn saunpdpeooent,ntarnyd.
—(Hear btehfoartehheehenodualdhajnoidnonthede NcoeobrleeiLonordß,ihiles
formastever.—(
v ehve hear.)r
—(Hear, hear.) Let him declare his intention to apply
his assurance ais
wise And conciliatory measures to that unfortunate country, and
he might rely upon it he would then, in the event of his taking
office, be able to govern with credit to himself and honour to the
nation .—(Hear, hear_)

Lord J. MANNERS said his objection to the measure was
one of principle, and if he asked himself how such men as Wind-
ham, and Swift, and Bolingbroke would have voted upon such a
measure, he could not fail to receive an answer that they would
have voted against such a Whig proposition.—( Hear, hear. )
A case of paramount necessity had not been proved for its
introduction, either by the statistical reformation placed before
the House, or by the conduct of the Government in pressing
the measure through the House. The clauses of the Bill did
not reach the evil. The offences complained of were com-
mitted for the most part during the day, and the provisions of
the Act did not give any protection during that period. It was
therefore inapplicable even if there was a case of paramount
necessity made out or proved to the House, and he would,
therefore, vote against the Bill.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, he did not ri e to address the
H. use immediately after the Hon. Membervfroersenßta'w.ha,s ans
011,, ea
constitutional
considered that there might be some Member on the same side
of the House, who wouladnhioahnveeced7d notittaedt thet ohave spoken to the
question.
agree with the rntsim
on.Al e m b ein,r
he
he act 0
ndseisdpeerreadt,e
that
they diseases
ion. He
measure, am 'tted atc
shouldo ucould
n
e t h,
norav e
ought not, to pass such a
desperateo f theH
remedies;
measure as the present, unless there
could be a case shown of paramount nee _' sity; and it would be
on these .mounds alone, that he would ask Hon. Members to
vote with him in support of the Bill. And, with reference to
the charge of delay, he would observe, that the
Honourable Member for Lambeth was the only one who
had done justice to the Government upon the occasion; for ho
had said that, reviewing the whole conduct of the Government,
•he did not consider that they could have in
earlier period. He must say that the Noble
that somewhat
Lord reproached
the Government with delay, in circumstances
the L( rds in the
surprised him. The Bill came down
moved that the n from
end of March, and an Hon.
Member
conside-
ration of the Bill should be postponed to the o_her orders of
the Noble Lord the Member for Lon.
the day, and he believed
don supported nun in that motion.—( Hear, hear.) He had
Government, having to consider
of
further to observe that the
an alteration in the corn-la
especially the question were now 7s, and
which they
discussing, it had
the measure
to decide likewise that that which was of primary
importance, and that which, though important also, was still
but secondary. Now the state of Ireland, the necessity and
destitution of the people made an alteration in the corn•lawe a
question of primary importance. If then, the primary im-
portance of that question were admitted, it would seem, he
said, that no delay could be charged against the Government in
the progress of dr, measure now before them. Thus much on
the first point. He was unwilling to detain the House with
the repetition of facts which had already been laid before it ;
hut an attempt had been made to show, that whatever might be
the case in referenoe to certain parts of Ireland, yet,'_in refe-
rence to the whole of Ireland, crime was not on the increase.
Now, he was not there to prefer an indictment
against the whole of Ireland ; but certainly, though
in
5 still,
there had not been an increase of crime in 1
ithe whole of Ireland crime was not on the increase. The Bill
was founded on five counties viz.:—Tipperary. Roscommon,
l Clare, Leitrim, and Limerick, and he knew i theren certain
d would spread, and it had
circumstances crime, unless checke ,

been. spreading. He would compare these counties with the
whole of Ireland. The populatioh of .the,whole of Ireland was
8,400,000 ; the populatlon of these five counties, 1,500,000. or
one-sixth of the-whole. The arca of Ireland was 20.000,000 of
acres, and of th 4 five counties, 3,500,000 acres. The total of
crime in the five countiea for fire months of the year.lB4s was
1,074. The return for these counties during the same months -
of 1845, gave 1,323, or an increase equal to 25 per dent. Of •
insurrectionary and agrariarre rinie for five months; the return
gave 779 for 4845, and 933 for 1846, being an increase, of 29 .
per cent.- Taking these fi ve"counties, as compared with the whole
of Ireland, the following was the return of specific crime :
Homicides in those countries increased in 1546 at the rate of
36 per cent. as compared with all Ireland ; firing at the person
at 68 per cent.; aggravated assaults at 48 per cent.; assault, -
with intent to injure life, at 38 per cent. ; demand and robbing
of arms at 72 per cent. ; murderous intention in the use 'of -
arms at 80 per cent. ; administration of unlawful oaths at 39
per cent. ; assaulting and taking dwelOng-honses at 79 per
cent. The total, in 1845, was 665 ;, in 1846, 872 ; and. for
the whole 'of Ireland in 1846, 1,443; in those specified crimes
allowing an increase of the proportion of 60 per cent.
In opposing this .Bill, it was observed by the Noble Lord the,
:Mem beclor Newark, that this Bill was inefficacious, or only
efficacious as against crime committed by night. The Noble
LOrd the Member for Durham has moved for a return of all the
murders committed in Ireland during the present year, and with
all the circumstances attending it, togsther with the hour by day
or by night. With respect to these returns, the facts he was
about to state were well worthy of the attention of the House,
as it was directly against the argument that the Bill woutil be
inefficacious with reference to crime, and they were mostly com
mitted by day. The returns showed that the numbers of mur-
ders committed between sunrise and sunset was 27, and be-
tween sunset and sunrise, showing .a majority of one •
half, or nearly so. The attempts 'at murder be- •
tween sunrise and sunset were only 13, while be-
tween sunset and sunrise they numbered 45. It was
necessary to state to the House something with reference to
the comparisons drawn between the murders committed in
England and Chose committed in Ireland. Between the years
1841 and 1845 the average number of murders committed in
England was 110, including infanticides, which made up a pro-
tpbo
er t
ni ounmobfemr
oo
fr ebtohma
ohi
dae
sl f onot
mt hme
tr;e
dand n duringlreland the
w as
eexpeel
ur isoi
rd
es
of infanticides, 128^; being a proportion of one homicide to
64,000 of the population ; while in England, exclusive of in-
fanticide. the population was one to 100,000. The proportion
of convictions-Its England was one to 32 3/ the of• the criminals, ,
anitin Ireland one to 81•!.. - He had received accounts of the
most ' hideous esorders in 'Clare and other counties ;
.and it was very evident; from all accounts, that
.the number of crimes was, not at all on the decrease,
The number of homicides committed in ,Ireland during the last
four years amounted to 446, and he had ascertained that most
of the parties the offence was committed against belongedto the
labouring classes. 261 of the number were' labourers and
gervants; while'others were night workers and bailiffs. The same
might he said with regard to attempts at murder. The number
was 436, while of parties against whom the offence was com-
mitted 94 were farmers, and 39 were labourers, and the rest
wood-rangers, stewards, and servants.—( Hear, hear.)
The Honourable Member for Cockermouth had stated
that Government brought forward this measure not
from a conviction of its necessity; but to satisfy their partisans
in Ireland. So far, however, from this being so, he could
assure the House that even last summer, from the accounts he
received from disinterested parties, he had begun to be im-
pressed with the conviction that some such measure as this
would have to be passed.—( Hear, hear.) HE admitted that
the position of land in Ireland was originally the primary cause
of all the crime in Ireland ; but then they must bear in mind
that although the immediate crimes themselves were connected
with no religious or political causes, they had become so exten-
sive as to shake the very foundation of society itself. This
rendered it clear that something must be done to reduce the
amount of crime in Ireland, and it was the knowledge of this
faet which had induced the Government to bring forward this
Bill.--(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman said that the
poor should receive relief. Why there were no less than 14,000
able-bodied men receiving daily wages in Ireland under the
Public Works Act; and as to schools for agriculture, they had
been already established, and an Act for draining land had re-
ceived the royal assent. He had, moreover, the satisfaction to
state that children to the amount of 400,000 were
receiving ,edueation. The Secretary-at-War had also
laid a Bill upon the table of the House for advancing a mil-
lion of money to the landed proprietors for the purpose of
encouraging them to drain and improve their estates, and
these were all the measures which had been recommended by
the Hon. Member. (The Right Hon. Baronet then read a
document for the purpose of showing
that the people in
Ireland were accustomed to conceal the criminal, and not to /
bring him, to justice.) The Noble Lord had said that he (Sir
J. Graham) had not dealt fairly in changing his opinions on
these great questions, without apologising for language which
he had used' in oppositicn. He would not be compelled to
defend particular expressions, but he would remind the Noble
Lord of his having overthrown Sir Robert Peel's Government,
in 1835, in a measure for the appropriation of the property of
the Irish Church ; and yet,: when in office, he had abandoned
that measure in a way which he would not characterise. He
said there was this to be said for himself and his colleagues,
that whatever change of opinions they had adopted, they had
adopted them under circumstances of necessity, and had car-
ried those changes into effect, at a sacrifice to themselves, per-
haps, of their power. The Noble Lord opposite and those
with him had changed their opinions as often as circumstances
had made it appear necessary. The Bill before the House had
been contrasted with that of the same nature which was intro-
duced in 1835. The contrast had been well depicted by the -
Hon. Member for Bath. The present measure was very much
less stringent than that introduced in 1835. Now he begged
to draw their attention to the state of crime when that Bill was
introduced. In 1835 the total amount of crimes
was 10,2.25;-.in 1836 it had fallen to 8,067 ; and in 1837
when a motion was made for repeal of that coercive Act, crime
had fallen to 6,775. In the year 1835, his Noble Friend thought
that he was justified in passing a measure of a less stringent
character, and one more calculated to enlist the feelings of the
people on behalf of the Government. The Noble Lord said,
that though he trusted he was justified in thinking that the as-
pect of affairs in Ireland was not so menacing as before, yet the
state of crime had nut' been sufficiently reduced as to call upon
the House to dispense with the powers contained in the Act.
This was the opinion .of the Secretary for Ireland. Mr.
O'Connell said that the end for which such a measure should _
be introduced should be .to punish, and not to prevent.
That was the object with which he had intro-
duced it to the Hous.e. He would observe that
during -the whole of Lord Melbourne's Government, from its
first commencement to within nine months of its close, they'
po4sessed a' measure niorr strinn.ent in many respects than the
one he vas then introducing, and it received the concurrence of
Mr. O'Cotinell. During its existence crime fell very much,
but when ip 184 Pit was at an end crime rose rapidly; and from
being about 4,000, it in the course of the four following years
came up to 8,000. The first strong coercive measure was in-
troduced by Lord Grey, with Mr. Fox. The second was in-
troduced by Lord Melbourne, the Noble Lord tl'e Member for
the city of London being then Home Secretary'; and
the state of crime then was not half so urgent there as
it was now. That measure had received the sanction
of Lord Linsdowne, and Lord Melbourne had written a letter
to the Repeal Association. stating his opinion that this measure
had been too long delayed. On the outset, he had admitted -
that the Bill was unconstitutional and harsh in its provisions
but such a measure was required by the existing circumstances,
and he agreed that no one Member of Parliament should vote
for such a measure unless he believed in its necessity.—(Hear,
bear.) The Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Newcastle-
Under-Line, had, in the course of the debate, asked him a ques-
tion with regard to the Bill, which, like others, was purely
matterof detail, and he could answer that in Committee. Go-
vernment would be glad to make the clauses as much recon-
cileable with the views of Hon. Members as they could.—(Hear,
hear.) Before he sat down, he 'must remind the House 'that
for the last five years they had fortunately been enabled to go-
vern Ireland withouthaving recourse to a measure of this sort;
but he must, at the same time, remind the House
that the time might come when such an Act might be
required, and on his conscience he declared that Ministers were
firmly convinced that that time had already arrived, and no
matter what Administration might be in office, Ireland could
not be governed without the aid of a measure like the one he
now asked the House to read a second time.—(Hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE would not detain the House for any
lengthof time at that late hour, but he could not allow a single
moment to pass without answering the charge the Right Hon.
Baronet had thrown out against him, with regard to the sugar
duties.—(Hear, hear.) It was not the first time the Right
Hon. Baronet had made the same attack, and he really, till
now, fancied that he had effectually silenced the Right Hon.
Baronet-on that point.--(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet, toe, ought to be the last man to make a charge of in-
consistency against him, for he was not aware that ha had ever
suddenly turned round and changed his opinions on particular
redtocepetros uad e
principles the
House
that points.
h
he aNttaorchehdadcohnesideevrear ttblaciemmppottan
opinions which he had long before abandoned as being im-
politic, unsound, and opposed to the best interests of the coun-
try. —(Cheers.) Now the Right Hon. Baronet had,. for the
second time, charged hint with having, a few years back,
while in office, argued in favour of the exclusion of slave-
grown sugar from the Briti,h markets ; but he begged the
House to remember that this was the construction the Right
Hon. Baronet himself tint 'upon 'his words; and not his own
meaning. ' -What he did say was,' that slavery having been so
recently abolished, the colonies ought for a time to be protected
against all foreign-grown sugar, but not against any particular
class of sugars.—( Cheers.) Now, with regard to the question
of Ireland, the Right Hon. Baronet had taunted them with
againstiers
of
themal
l.
the--- (
countryH e
oa r
not being able to govern Ireland without having recourse to
ofdildhehpoepoepltehawt ttltas.
Co:rcion Bills. But whose fault was this?—(Hear, hear.)
Why, it was the fault of the Right Honourable
Baronet and his party, who were constantly raisin
gßutentlteommake compliment
ire(i an do f
he,
eh,e
therefore,liberties
bethe theeryhestofmet‘oof 'Prnoapkeirnyg" r e
n
Members would give their votes upon the measure accord*:
to their conscience. He was not to
pledged support the Me'
because he voted for its first reading every person was aware
that that was only a formal proe.eetlin "
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN
movedg the _adjoumment of
the debate.
The following Bills were adjourned until Monday next
Landlord and Tenant (Ireland)
Bill (Second reading) ; Eject-,
ments, Ireland, Bill (Second reading) ; Leases, Ireland,
(Second reading).
postponed until Thursday next.
Bill was adjourned till
The Coroners' (Ireland)Wednesday
The Joint Stock Banks (Scotland and Ireland) Bill, was
next.
Service of Heirs (Scotland) Bill, Crown Charters (Scotland)
Bill, went through Committee.
County Works Presentments (Ireland) Bill was read a third
m passed.EEeL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to continue
thetiA Colonel
teo P
authorise and facilitate the completion of a survey, of
Great Britain, Berwick-upon-Tweed, and the Isle of Man, to
3Hlosut
seadjourned December, I
atB a ti
5l . Aa
rgtreere.dp a
st to.
One o'clock....
.„
, a
The other orders of the day were then
disposed of, and this
[A

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