The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-30 00:00:00

GROUP XL,

The Committee met at one o'clock, Mr. Stafford O'Brien, chairman
NORTH WESTERN.
Mr. Barrems shortly laid the merits of the project before the
Committee.
•
It is proposed that the line should start from Skipton, where it
joins the York and Lancaster and other lines, and passes by Kirby
Lansdale, through the north-west of Lancashire into Westmoreland,
effecting a junction with the rail which lies between
Kendal and Penrith. A branch leaves the main trunk at Clapham
for the town of Lancaster, and another branch proceeds from Kirby
Lansdale to Milnthorpe, at the head of Morecombe Bay. The length
of the main trunk is 36 miles, the branch to Lancaster 18 miles, and
that to 3lilnthorpe 13 miles.
Witnesses were examined to show the amount of traffic in coals
21.42 d Furness ore and manures for the land.
WISATELET opposed the Mllnthorpe branch on behalf of the
pro'orietors oil that part of the line, and shortly addressed the Corn
mittee.

The room was afterwards cleared. On being admitted parties
were told that the Committee were of opinion that the preamble of
the Bill was Proved, except so far as it referred to the branch from
Kirby LonsdaLe to litillithorpe.
the Committee then adjourned till to-morrow.

thing if what had fallen from him, but he knew his
opinions, having seen reports of his speeches deli.
vered in other places on',•this subject. He was therefore
compelled to confine himself to the opinions expressed
by the Honourable Gentleman that had seconded the
motion of the Honourable Member for Oldham.—(Hear.)
But he hoped that they had arrived at that time when the
principles of commercial restrictions would be clearly
understood.—(Hear, hear.) It did not appear to him,
however, if they put shackles on the manufactures, they
would be able to meet the demand in the markets
which has given employment to so many millions
of their fellow-countrymen. The result would be, that they
will be thrown out of employment and the manufacturers
will remain idle. You will then have not complaints that
they are over-worked, but that they cannot get work. Again,
if the manufacturer is limited, what would be the result ?
The millions must stand still, and they would re-
gret the day when they besought you to impose
these restrictions. He was against this Bill. No trammel
should be imposed on the manufacturer save in the case of
children of tender age; and when a Bill was brought in for
their protection, he well remembered telling the
Right Honourable Gentleman that it would be used
as a precedent, and the principle would not be limited,
but would go on from stage to stage. If they agreed to a
Ten Hours' Bill, they would have one for eight hours pro-
posed before long. It was true it was a hard thing that men
should be compelled to labour for twelve hours, and
that no limitation should be enforced to alleviate
their hardships; if he considered that it was possible
to enforce any limitation, he would be the very first to afford
it—he meant any alleviation which could be afforded with-
out destroying the principle on which their livelihood de-
pends. And it was because he could judge of results,
and because he felt that if they carried out their request, that
they would be laying the foundation of future distress, that he
opposed the present measure. He would like to know on
what principle they claimed a right of interference in private
rights. He would suppose a case. He had three hundred
people on his estate ; he had no means of employing more
than one hundred at agricultural labour; how would he
employ the other two hundred? why,by manufactures alone.
There was no mode by which he could employ them unless
he was placed in a position, in regard to the produce of fo-
reign countries, that he could give them employment in ma-
nufactures. Unless he was able to supply his produce at a
rate by which he could compete with foreign manufacturers,
the effect would be that he could not employ them in manu-
factures, and they would be driven back on agricul-
ture for support. With regard to a glut in the market,
there would not be any, but the want of the
means of purchasing. The cheaper the article the larger
would it be purchased, and the greater the demand. It was
net fair to the manufacturers of this country to be stopped
in working their machinery two hours a day, when it was
necessary they should do so in order to compete with foreign
producers. It was the right of a manufacturer, in the first
place, to attend to his own interest as a capitalist, and in
the second place to regulate his affairs as to the parties whom
he employed. In such circumstances it was not fair to step in
and say that they must not employ their machinery for
twelve hours a day. The present Bill confines a manufac-
turer only to work his machinery ten hours a day, or else not
to employ parties, in which case the latter would be driven
to the union. The principle which was inapplicable to one
case was inapplicable to the country generally; and in
his *pinion they could not take a worse step than to
interfere with the industry of the country. Hence
it was that, in a measure of such national
importance, he suggested that it should not be discussed in
a thin House and while so many Committees were sitting.
He appealed to the House if such a principle of interference
as he had cited was admissible, and if not, why seek to
extend it:to the whole country?—(Hear, hear.) No one
deplored more than he did the long hours and hard labour of
the English operatives, and none could be more anxious to
support any measure to expand their minds and elevate
them in the scale of being, but he opposed the
present Bill because he believed it would be highly
injurious. Master and labourer should be left at per-
fect liberty to make the best bargain they could without any
interference. If such a measure was carried, it would be
impossible to continue the same rate of wages. Mr. Senior,
and three other gentlemen, had been sent down into the
manufacturing districts, to inquire into the effect which
the reduction of one hour per day would have on the capital
and the rate of wages. They had inquired into the respec -
tire influence of 12 hours, 11 hours, and :10 hours daily;
and Mr. Senior had repeated that a large proportion of the
profits of machinery arose from the 1 lth and 12th hour's work.
If that was the case the House would see how vain it was to
limit the hours of labour in factories. If Hon. Members on
the other side would provide a fund to supply the wages of
those who would be turned out of employment in consequence
of such bad legislation, he would then be prepared to sup-
port the measure. He protested against any doctrine that
interfered with the capital of labour. The Hon. Member
concluded by moving, " That the Bill be read a second thee
this day six months."
Mr. WARD seconded the amendment.
Sir G. STRICKLAND was of opinion that many who had
opposed legislation on this subject were rather shaken in
their convictions. Even the Hon. Member who had last
addressed the House (Mr. Hume) stcod upon no very high
ground in his opposition. If the law were to be left in its
present state it would have the effect of requiring a labour of
fourteen hours, instead of twelve. He thought the Hon.
Member had done well in putting this as a case of humanity.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that although upon personal grounds
he was unwilling this morning to interpose himself in the
course of this debate, yet, as the question now stood, it was
expedient that some member of the Government should state
the course that Government intended to adopt. The
Honourable Member who had just sat down
had truly remarked that this subject had undergone
much consideration in the course of the present Par-
liament. On former occasions, when it had been fully dis-
cussed, it was his duty to state to the House the principles
which guided him in coming to a discussion on the question
which they were then debating. That question was of
paramount importance, and most decidedly of great
interest. It had been his duty carefully to re-
consider all these opinions upon the subject, and
he was bound to state to the house that his
opinions had undergone ito change, after the most careful
consideration he could bestow on the subject, and therefore
it was his duty to concur with the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose in resisting the further progress of the Bill.—(Hear.)
Now, he would shortly refer to some of the topics broached
in the course of the debate. It was urged by some Hon.
Members, and particularly by the Honourable Member
for Preston, that they ought to make some compromise
on this question, but he thought that the time had gone by
when it was prudent to adopt any such course. Already the
Legislature had restricted the hours of labour for children.. to
twelve hours, while children under the age of eight years
were restricted altogether from working in factories con-
nected with four branches of the manufacture of
the country—cotton, woollen, silk, and flax. The
hours of labour for persons between the ages of
twelve and sixteen were limited to twelve, and in
some factories the hours of labour for children between the
ages of six and thirteen were restricted to six hours and a
half per day, while the Acts of Parliament, which made these
restrictions, provided most amply for the education of the
children during the leisure hours. Having said
thus much, he would entreat the House to
consider the immense magnitude of the subject
they were discussing. First, with reference to our
trade.
he hadWh mentioned epnrotipoonretdiobneadridto
thet b
efao brancheserudxr:horetoe
or
theof manufac-
turecountry?
He said fearlessly that three-quarters of the value of
tale
whole exports, amounting to between thirty and forty mil-
lions, were connected with these four branch-es of
manufacture. Now,
wages. How
did these four with regard
225,000/. a week, while at least a millin of the po pula-
paid in wages
tion of the country were dependent for their on living these
four branches of manufacture. He said, therefore, if they
committed an error in their legislation upon this subject it
was no trifling error, as it touched the staple manu-
factures of the country, a great portion of the foreign
trade of the country, affected the industry of half a
million of the most industrious .of their population, and
touched also the circulation to the amount of nearly a
quarter of a million per week.—(Cries of" Hear, hear.") It
was impossible, therefore, that they could consider a question
of more frightful importance as bearing upon the interests of
either the whole country or particular classes, but lie
objected to the time at which they were called to
discuss this matter, or in its being discussed at all now,
because it had already, in the course of the present Parlia-
ment, undergone the most full and ample consideration.—
(Hear, hear.) It had been stated by one Hon. Member that
the working classes were disappointed in the conduct of that
House, but he for one absolutely denied that the House
had ever pronounced an opinion in favour of a Ten
Hours' Bill. It was true, Lord Ashley, on former
occasion moved an amendment to a facto's? Billthat the
hours
should be limited to ,ten instead of twelve,r
but that
amendment was negatived by a majority
158.
(Cheers.) And this Bill, in
fact,was
to of 395 to
amendment of Lord Ashley. But, as he had beforec, that
observed,
there were circumstances which rendered the discussion
this matter at the present time most inopportune.
heofre
were
in the first place, the Government measures of the
present
session, some of which had already come into •
operation while
others had not. The resolution authorising removal of the
restrictions on the importation of corn, and articles
used in the making of bread, had not yet come
into force, while our home manufacturers had at once been
placed in free competition with their foreign rivals. Ten
per cent. of the duties enforced on the cotton, and 15 per cent.
on the woollen trade, had already been removed.—(Hear).
What were capital and labour ? Somebody bad said,
" Don't treat this question as one of pounds, shillings, and
pence."—(Hear, Lear.) What were wages, and what was
capital? Was there any difference between them? They
could not consider the questions of capital and la-
bour separately. And now, with respect to the effect
of this measure, if they attempted to abridge the
hours during which machinery was in action from 12 to 10
hours, they would diminish the time of labour one fifth ;
and the effect of the measure, if they adopted it, would be
a reduction either in the profits or the prices.—(Hear, hear.)
lie believed the intensity of foreign competition actually
prohibited a rise in the
price of all our great branches of
inanufacture—(Hear, hear)—and he, thereore, held that a
rise in price was a part of this question. There must be a
reduction in the profits or in the wages ; and what would
be the effect of a reduction of the profits? The capita-
list's only resource if his profits were diminished would be to
reduce the wages of his work-people. That was the only
justifiable and necessary course for him to take.—(Hear.)
Now he had heard something said about the possibility that
the same amount of work
would be produced even if the
hours of labour were reduced from twelve to eleven hours per
day.—(gear.) Ile had heard an Hon. Gentleman cheer,
and seeing a the quarter whence that cheer came, he
must say that he had every possible respect for the
statement
of the lion. Member. But he held in his hand a
respecting the results of the experiments of Messrs.
Horrocke, the extensive manufacturers, who had recently
reduced the hours of labour in their mills from twelve to
_a
eleven_rc hours per day. That statement appeared in the
ichester Guardian of the 4th of April, and it appeared
from that statement that the effect of the reduction
of the hours of labour was a reduction of 6i per cent. in the
amount of goods manufactured—(bear, hear)—and he
thought that he Was quite correct in his calculations that the
effect of the reduction of the hours of labour would, to the
extent sought by the Bill, have the effect of reducing
the profits of the manufacturer 16 per cent. But,
as he had already said, he believed that in a series
of years the employers of the labourer in the manufac-
turing districts would, in self-defence, 'propose a reduction
of wages to the extent that this Bill was calculated to effect.
Let them als) take into their consideration the other
view of the case: What would be the effect of that
reduction of the wages of the labouring poor? The
capital of the working his hour —Meat',
man was a . hear. It -h. was the hard lot of man " that by the sweat of
brow he must his brad,"and it also the curse
earn
of mankind that and hard labour was it that
sorrow :a ,
bread must general' Dien let them take care
that whilst acting,Y e earned.
most phi-
no doubt with the purest elnd
lan‘h • room motives, they did not increase that sorrow and
toil.—(Rear, hear.) He knew of nothing more ho-
nourable, more laudable or more worthy of the en-
couragement and admiration of the higher classes than to
endeavour to shorten the long hours of the patient
and industrious of the labouring classes.—(Hear, hear.)
But let them take care that they Aid not throw any

TIIE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, APR'I'L 30, 1846.