The Sun.
London, England, 1846-02-21 00:00:00

IRISH GRIEVANCES.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Friday, Feb. 20.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at a few minutes before Four
o'clock.

NEW EMB.
Sir Dz LACY EVANS took the oatE RS
hs and his seat for West-
inser, in the room of Captain Rous, who has accepted the
Ga fice ollantf one of the Lords of the Admiralty. The Hon. and
Captain Pe Member, who was introduced by Mr. Bouvarie and
Mr. chell, was received with loud cheers on his entrance.
the room Goocw took the oaths and his scat for East Suffolk, in
of Lord Henniker.
111 r. FLOYER and Mr. SEYIIIR also took the oaths and
their seats far the county of Dorset, in the room of Lord Ashley
and Mr. Sturt.

A petition vgasilp4relsLenWteAdlragarlinUstSlthNeEASySlesbury and Thame
Junction Railway Bill.
The following Railway Bills
viz;_
read a second time, and
were ordered to be committed,
ondon and Brighton Railway (Dorking Branch).
anchester,Buxton, Matlock,
and Midland Junction Railway.
old Junction Railway.
North and South Junction Railway.
General Terminus and Glasgow Harbour Railway.
Stirling and Dunfermline Railway.
Edinburgh and Leith Atmospheric Railway.
Bristol and South Wales Junction Railway and Ferry,
Windsor, Slough, and Staines Atmospheric
Aylesbury and Thame Junction Railway.
The O'CONOR DON moved that it be an instruction to
the Select Committee on Petitions, that in all cases of Irish
railway Bills, wherein the promoters shall have proved com-
pliance with the standing orders in the House of Lords, they
do give priority to the investigation of the compliance with
the standing orders of the House of Commons applicable to such
Bills over all other cases which may stand for inquiry
before them, provided due notice of the sitting of the Com-
mittee for such purpose has been given, and that the promoters
of such Bills propose to prove the compliance with the standing
orders, either wholly or in Fart, by viva voce evidence." The
Hon. Gentleman proceeded to point out the difficulties at-
tendant do the present system, one instance of which he

would point out

to the attention of the House ;

was the case of the county surveyor of 'Westport.
who, having proved his case in the House of Lords, had been.
obliged to go back to Ireland in order to attend the assizes, and
he would have to come back again, to prove the same
case in the House of Commons. Another case was
that of a friend of his, who having proved compliance
with the standing orders in the other House, found that there
were 184 cases on the list of the House of Commons to be
heard before his case would come on, thereby putting him to
great inconvenience by the delay he would experience.
Mr. GROGAN said his own motion on the paper was sub-
stantially the same as the one the Honourable Member had
j oat proposed. It would be in the recollection of the House
t hat at an early period of the present session both branches
of the Legislature adopted a resolution to establish the rae-
tice of commencing Irish Railway Bills in the House of Lords.
His own motion, and that of the Hon. Member opposite.,
was simply to carry out that measure more pra,tically and
Offtlitlallh and toving that it would Iscilitatt rather thaia rouird

Lord CAMPBELL rose, pursuant to notice, to present a
petition of very great importance. It came from the inha-
bitants of the city of Cork, and emanated from a public meet-
ing heed in that city, and was signed by the mayor and al o eer-
Then and so many of the inhabitants, that the petition had been
charged to him ill. for postage, but which, by the courtesy of
the Postmaster-General had been returned to him. The
petitioners stated that they approached the Honourable
House most respectfully, and that, ever loyal to the British
Crown and the public instition, and mindful of the
pledge entered into by the. Sovereign, that the grievances
of the people should 'be redressed, they laid before
the House what they considered a very great evil
—namely, the compulsory payment of a tax called
" ministers.' money." So little was known of the impost in
Englare:i, that since he entered the house he had been asked
by a, -Noble Peer of great standing and intelligence, if the im-
r.,st of ministers' mow meant the grant of Regium Donum,
which was voted toteff Dissenting clergy by the Parliament.
Now, the petitioners did not mean tointerfere with the bounty of
the Crown, nor was it their wish that the grant should in any
way be intercepted er limited ; all they did was to lay a state-
ment before the:House of the weighty grievances that affected
themselves personally. In the reign of Charles 11. an Act,
which he should pronounce a very arbitrary one, passed, by
which the inhabitants of certain corporate towns were subjected
to individual taxation for the maintenance of the pastors of the
Episcopal Protestant religion in Ireland.
A 'Noires LORD—Ye;, the tithe.
Lord CAMPBELL should state that it was an impost
quite different fore tithes, and one paid to the clergy
of the minoeity, by the Catholics and Dissenters.
The late Srecretary for Ireland, Sir Thomas Fremantle, had
likewise admitted in his place in the House of Commons,
that it was a very great grievance. Now, after
SO universal a condemnation of this tax, the only
question for their Lordships to consider would be, what
means they should adopt to remove it. He was rather
astonished that when the Noble Lord opposite introduced his
Act respecting Church Temporalities, that !his tax was not
removed at that time, for though the pressure of it was lighter,
that very circumstance made it a greater grievance. While
the former amounted to about 60,0001. the latter did not
come to more than 13,0001. or 14,0001. a year, and for
that paltry sum it was too bad that all the
religious sects in Ireland should consider themselves aggrieved.
His.did not wish to say anything invidious of the Church, but
he earnestly implored their Lordships to take measures for its
removal, that the odium of ite might no longer attach to the
Church. He did trust, therefore, that their Lorships would
Look favourably on that petition. He did trust
that along with the measures of concession which
were contemplated, that the removal of this
would also :be included, for, under the circumstances of
that country, it would have a most favourable tendency. He
would conclude by moving that the petition do lie on the table.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS willingly admitted that he
had stated in the other House of Parliament that this impost
was a practical grievance, but he did not admit that it was evil
in principle. He looked upon it as simply a grievance of a
practical nature, and not to be considered as an insult-
ing act towards her Majesty's Roman Catholic sub-
jects. The Roble Lord was correct in stating that
the impost was originated for the maintenance
of the Protestant clergy in certain towns of Ireland, but the
Noble Lord ought also to have recollected that at that time
the Roman Catholics were by law incapable of holding any
real property, and therefore the tax fell exclusively on the
Protestants. It was only recently that Catholics were per-
minted to hold property in towns, and they purchased those
properties subject to the payment of this tax. It
was a grievance of a much lighter character than
the tiths, inasmuch as it was levied on the
occupiers of those houses in those towns. The basis on which
it was levied had remained unchanged since the time of Charles
the Second. In Dublin it so happened, therefore, that houses
which in the reign of that monarch had been occupied by opu-
lent families, were now tenanted by the humblest families ;
while the rates had remained, comparatively speaking,
the same. The same held good in other large towns—
in London, in Glasgow, and in Edinburgh, where
an impost of a similar character existed for the
maintenance of the Protestant clergy. He had more than
once directed his attention to the subject ; and he had been in
hopes of being enabled to submit some other provision lieu
of it. Difficulties had, however, supervened, and he was ,sot
at that moment in a condition to say whether her Majesty's
Government were engaged in the considerations of introducing
any alteration with respect to it. He was not aware that
he had anything further to say ; he admitted that it was a
grievance, but as he had before stated it was only a grievance
of a practical nature and not one founded ow principle, or in.
tended to insult the Roman Catholic subjects.
Lord CAMPBELL had heard with great satisfaction the
explanation given by the Noble Lord.
Lord STANLEY could answer the question why ministers'
money had not been dealt with in the same manner as the
vestry cess. The ministers' money did not ap-
pear to him to partake in the slightest degree of
the —nature of a personal tax. It had been a tax
existing- since the time of Charles 11., and was levied, not on
individuals, but upon houses, and was as much a tax on house
property as tithe was a tax cri landed property in
the country. It stood precisely on the same footing.
It was in nu way a capitation tax, but was
-an ad valorem tax. All house property was purchased subject
-to this tax, and to abolish it would only be to put so much into
the pockets of the house prop; ietors. The difference betwieen
the vestry cess and the ministers' money was this, that the lattt
was a certain tax, and the former an uncertain one. He ad-
/mitred that the present mode of levying the tax was a defective
tine, but he did not see how it could be remedied.
Lord MONTEAGLE fully agreed with the Noble Lord
that ministers' money stood on the same footing as tithe. He
would venture to say, that of all classes of the Irish clergy,
those who had the most onerous duties to discharge were the
least remunerated. He (the Noble Lord) was not then going
to deal with the question of the principle of the law of tithes.
All he should say was, that it gave rise to a most unhappy
etruggle between the pastor and the farmer, as regarded agri-
cultural produce ; for certainly distraining the furniture and
stock of the poor farmer, and selling them off, by public
auction, was a most grievous proceeding. Now, the impost
of minister's money differed from tithes in this way, that the
former was levied under an old valuation, made as far back as
the reign of Charles 11., the consequence of which was that
the heaviest taxation fell on those parts of towns that were in
the greatest state of decay, and in which resided the poorest
class Of inhabitants. His Noble Friend ouposite had done
himself great credit by stating that, when he had been chief
Secretary for Ireland, he was most anxious to find a remedy for
the impost. Many of the clergy were obliged in conaequenee
of the difficulty of collecting the tax to give it up altogether,
and in such a state of things he submitted whether it was worth
while to allow it to remain any longer on the Statute-book.
He Bras perfectly persuaded that if half the ingenuity which
yvess bestowed last year by a Noble Lord on a Bill relating to
landlord and tenant was devoted to this question, it would be
satisfactorily settled.
The subject then dropped.
THE GAUGE QUESTION.
Lord KINNAIRD gave notice that, on Monday next, he
would, put a question to the Noble Earl, the President of the
Boaied of Trade, as to the intentions of her Majesty's Govern-
ment with respect to the report of the Gauge Commission.
PROTECTION TO LIFE (IRELAND) BILL.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS said that he introduced a
iBi:1 a few nights ago for the better pro+ection of life in Ireland,
and since that certain suggestions had been made to him which
he wished to introduce in the Bill in the shape of amendments.
He therefore moved that these alterations be printed, that they
might be added to the Bill.
Lord CAMPBELL suggested that the Noble Earl should
withdraw the first Bill, and that a new Bill, including the
amendments, be introduced.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the alterations were
of a technical nature.
The Bill was then introduced with the suggested alterations,
and read a first time.
The second reading was appointed for Monday next.
Their Lordships then d. d
a journe .

The SPEAK ER said he had to state to the House that he
had received a communication from the Hon. George Lindsay,
stating that it was not his intention te defend his return.
ARMY RECRUITS.
Captain LAYARD gave notice that he would, on an early
day, bring on a motion for the better regulation of the recruit-
ing service, with a view to inducing younu men of a respect-
able class in society to enlist in her Majesty's service.
CROWN SOLICITORS IN IRELAND.
Mr. PIGOTT, in pursuance of the :notice he had given to
that effect, to ask the Right Hon. Bar onet, the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, the following question-:--
Whether appointments have been made- of three persons as
Crown solicitors for the Home Circuit i, a Ireland, or for cer-
tain counties belonging to it, in the room. of the Crown Soli..
citor for that circuit, who has died ? If that question be an-
swered in the affirmative, then to ask—Whether the salaries
or emoluments of those officers have b ten fixed, and if so,
at what amount ; when were the appointments made ; when
was it determined to divide the circ' it into districts, with
separate solicitors at distinct salaries ; and whether there be
any objection, on the part of the Gay' trnment, to laying before
this House copies of all documents 'relating to any alterations '
which have been made in the office .of Crown Solicitor, or in
the arrangements for the conduct. tof Crown prosecutions in
Ireland ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said be had to state, in anwer
to the question of the Right HOll. Gentleman, that
there could be no objection to I,ty- upon the table
of the House the papers he ha d asked for. In
respect to the other part of the Right Moe. Gentleman's
question, he begged to say that certain .appointments had
already been made of some Crown Solicitors, . about three weeks
sie, which would come into operation on tint 31st March. The
home Circuit in Ireland consisted of six coi wales, and it was
proposed to add two other counties to that t ircuit, and that a
Crown Solicitor should be resident in one of those counties,
all exPenses, making Ihe salary should be 500/. a year, twe hundre d a year to cover
2,100/. for all, bei
meets of the late Sonllf
700/. for each, and an aggreetate sum of
On the motion thatelt.—(
.100/. per annum less than the emolu-
Hear, hear.)
until Monday next,
Mr. BROTHERTON
the House should, at it: st rising, adjourn
astu gewgeiels:
oe d
o'clockth at
inthe, l..orHdoeurstehasthtohuelyd
sit to-morrow (Saturday)
Crienstoofe'cimmite
might be enabled to go at onct
taut measure before thern,—( se on the impor-
The Hoe. AIEMBER, declined . Move, move.")
to move ;he . throw out the suggestion, only wished to
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that it w
advantageous, both to the agriculturaloul A
be extremely
interests of the country, that the and commercialsense o f the
House should be taken on the pr,
'liinr
but he did not see how the suggestion of tl t, lion.Ymem step,r
would accomplish his desires, or what advant t-ge could be de-
rived from the House departing from its uses 1 rules.—(Hear.)
Mr. S'T'AFFORD O'BRIEN suggested that as there was
a long list
of gentlemen on his own side ' if the House who
the Government '
were anxious to speak upon the subject e/
measure, the de bate ought to be kept open until those gentle-
men had an opportunity of addressing the I louse,
The motion was then agreed to.
FOREIGN POSTAG' S.

Mr. ROEBUCK was understood to x:a"--the Right Hon.
Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasur if there were any
hopes of the penny postage system bei
colonies? =tended to the

Sir R. PEEL replied in so low a t
the gallery. He was, however, one

to. be inaudible in
.a►rJn6 43 ay that it was
to