The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-26 00:00:00

ships had agreed to the Saltash Road Bill, and desired the
concurrence of thiq Hnuße.

CHURCH TENIP6RALITIE.SI IN IRELAND.

Lord ALTHORP said it had been his intention to
move tb it the House should go into a Committee of Supply
for the purpose of voting Navy Estimates before he had
proposed the Committee on the Cl urch Temporalities in
Ireland, but the Hon. Member for Middlesex had given
notice of a motion, declating, " that it is expedient, before
Voting the naval and military establishments, that the
House should he in'ormed of the finances of the countr,,
and whether any and what relief was to be afforded
to the people from the burden of taxation, in order
that the estAilishments ought to he suited thereto,"
and as he (Lord Althorp) believed that a division would
take place on that subject, he thought it would he
more convenient to move hit resolutions before the subject
of the navy estimates was submitted to the House. He
(Lord Althoro)should not occupy much of the time of
the Hon,e, having already opened the matter fully, but
eiculd have simply to move resolutions as the foundation
of a Bill in lieu of the Irish Church Reform Bill, with-
drawn.

Mr. had undoubtedly intended to press his mo-
tion to a division in the G'mniittee of Supply, on the
subject of the naval and military establishments ; but if
the Noble Lod would take the present establishmen,s for
three months (as we understool) be should not object to
postpone that met;en.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to know why the return of
the fre, men registered un 'er the Irish Reform Bill, h
not been pl ,red en the table 4 the H oeic.
111 r. STANLEY could not, as the to urns had to pts
through the Harne.i.ffioe, explain the delay to tile Hon.
and Learn,' Gentl-man.

Mr. GOULBURN said he had been taken quite by sur-
prise by the Noble Lord's (Althorp's) propositlen. It wa.,
generally understood, most certain'y, that the navy e•ti.
mates should take the precedence of the Committee
on the Irish Church Temporafifes, and it would un-
(low tedly be extremely inconvenient it the Noble
Lord persisted in his intention now expressed.
Mr. SHAW agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Goulburn) who had just sat down. U doubtedly the
general impression was, that the navy estimates should
take the precedence, and he knew that his Hollow able
and Learned Colleague (Mr. Lefroy) had intended
to move an amendment, but in consequence of his under-
standing that it would rot he brought on till an advanced
period of the evening, he had not yet entered the House.
—(Hear, hear, hear.) He hoped, therefore, that
the Noble Lord would not now persist in bringing
on the Church Temporalities Committee till the navy
estimates had been disposed of.
Lad ALTHORP then agreed to the suggestion.
Sir R. PEEL said tie Noble Lord would recollect, that
by an Act of Parliament, his Majesty had been enabled,
with the King of the French, to guarantee a loan of
20,000/. to the King of Greece, and he (Sir Robert)
wished to know whether other Powers had been parties
to that guarantee also.
Lord ALTHORP ssid that no step had been taken here
to realise the money, as we understood.
Sir R. PEEL considered that a substantial answer to
his question.

Upon the SPEAKER putting the question, that he
leave the Chair for the whole Douse to resolve
itself into a Commit•ee upon the
NAVY ESTIMATES.

Mr. HUME rose to explain the grounds on which it
was his intention to propose an amendment He stated that
they had, ever since Parliament met, been very anxious to
know from his Majesty's Ministers what their intention
was with respect to a reduction of taxation. The Noble Lord
however, had cautiously abstained from giving any answer
(and so had the speech from the Throne withheld all in•
formation) as to whether it was intended to afford any relief.
The Noble Lotd stated, anti perhaps properly stated, that
he did not intend to offer any explanation, or give any an-
swer to any question on the subject of finance until after the
year had terminated. He understood, however, that
sufficient information was to be given to enable the
House to know what °tie t to be voted at the
commencement of the year, but if they were to wait till
April, it would be utterly impossible that the of
which he understood to be in view, namely, that the House
should be in possession of the means which the coun-
try had to maintain the establishment, could be tff cted.
They would come to the establishments of the day without,
having previously ascertained what the state of the financial
affairs was. In that way the Hou-e could tint have the advan-
tage of considering the esemates, and it would be impos-ible
fir Hon. Members to know what amount of supplies they
would be warrarred in voting, in total ignorance
as they were of the income and means of the coun-
try.—( Hear.) He thought, after the long discussions
which had taken place on the Irish Bill, the people of
England must be looking to something in the way of
relief from the burdensome taxation under which they
had been for so long a time groaning.—Hear, hear.)
He had just been reminded that the discussions on the
Irish Bill were not unimportant—he did not dispute that
they were important, but he doubted the preptiety of
having brought forward that Bill at all—(Hear, hear)
—the discussions themselves were imeoriant—the ob•
jections to the Bill were properly made, end he
hoped still greater oppneiti n would be shown
to any such unconstitutional a measure, should
such ever again he brought forwerd either in this
or in any other Parliament,—(Hear, hear.) But
the qiiestien he wished to ask was, as hither the
Noble Lord was now prepared to give that
relief from taxation, which the people of England ex
pected ?—( Hear, hear.) Undoulreifly at any thing
'tike what mieht he called the popular elections,
if he had known any thing of the candidates, those
who had been elected were pledged to economy—pledged
to the reduction of taxation. The time, therefore, for tul-
fill:ng those pledges as it Appeared to liim, was before
hey voted supplies fer the Establishment. The Noble Laid
bad given no idea of vet at the state of finance was, or of the
ext. nt of relief which his means would enable him to pro_
pose. Hon. Members were, therefore, obliged to catch at any
such idea by the papers which hail been put into their
hands, namely, the state of the Revenue by the latest ac-
(imos ; and he would show the House there were no great
means for the state of those papers to be calcul ited upon.
By papers laid on the table of the House up to April last
it appeared that on the sth of that month they had
actually exceeded the income of the country ti the extent
of one million two hundred thousand pounds. It
was perfectly evident., therefore, that no relief c uld be
uffolded front taxation, unless the charges were reduced
below what they were last year. It appeared, by ano-
ther paper laid on the table of the House, during
the present session, that the eurpus of income was
about 633,000/., consequently half the rxcees of the
last year would be made up, but still the country would
be half a million deficient, He would submit to the
House, therefore, whether any circumstances had taken
place in the last quarter, to warrant a supposition that
the surplus would more than equal the excess of last
ye r, arid he would also peg to know where the means
were to come from our of which the present esti-
mates were to be satisfied, if agr ed to. He would
unhesitatingly assert, that unless the establishments of the
country could be reduced, it was impossible to reduce
taxation. It was impossible to suppose that men could take
eft' taxes, and borrow money afterwards to pay them He had
proposed to the Noble Lord or posite to take the estimates on
this subj ct for three months, from which, after knowing
the intentions of his Majesty's Ministers, the House would
be able to firm an estimate of the Army, Navy,
and Ordnance D partments that ought to be kept
up. The Noble Lord, however, did not choose to accede
to that proposition, and had now come forward to ask the
House for the whole of the military atid naval estimates.
He wished to press upon the House the fact, that while in
game offices reduction had been made, no reduction worthy
of mentioning had taken place. No real reduction
of taxation could take place, unless most material eltera-
tione were made in the Army, Ordnance, anti Naval
Departments. This country was at peace at the present
moment ; no tears were entertained from ex.etnal
hostilities, and he hoped none from intern ‘l.—(Hear.)
But still an eptahliehmens was kept up quite as huge es
in the time of war. This was in his opinion alb g, titer
inconsistent with the welfare and happiness of the country,
and he therefore felt it his duty to call the subject
to the serious consideration of the House.—(Hear.)
It was only by actually reducing the establishments when
they had the p weer, that they would get the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, or any Cliancellor of the Exchequer
to do what the country expected of them. He believed the
present Chancellor to he as honest a one as had filled the
situation for some time, but, like all his predecessors, the
change of place seen-red to have changed his opinions. Ile
woo d take another extract from the Finance Report of
1828. The principle that it hid down was thip—that no
greater establishment, nor any more money beyond the
necessity of the case should be required at any time, but
much more especially at the present time, when
the great distresseso and peculiar difficulties now
press d on the country, and ail by the mere excess of
x The country was now paying as much in
ttaax:swien•
sit did in the years 1814-15 awl 1816, ei hen the
emeinal revenue was 69,000,0001. At present it
was only 49,000,000/., but in reality the pressure upon the
country was greater now than it was at the former period.
Many instances were within his own knowledge, one of
which only- -would be describe to Owl:louse, In the