The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-01 00:00:00

it'A L WAYS.

The Earl of CLARENDON reported from the Soleet
Committee appointed to consider what Railway Bills
should be committed during the remainder of the ses-
sion. That the Committee were of opinion that. the
following. Bills ought to be exempted fro•n the operation
tif the resolution of the 7th of May Liverpool,
Orna:kirlc, and I'reson; the Glatigow and }.elrast Union;
the Tail' Vale ; the Caledonian ; the Caledo-
nian and Govan ; the ,If oochcster and Southampton ;
and the East and West -India Dock Bill. The Noble
Lord, therefore, moved that the resolution of the 7th of
May ba suspended in respect of those Bills.—Agreed to.
BATHS AND WAS'IIIOUSES.
The Marvis of LANSI)OWNE moved the second
reading of this Bill. •

E HPLOYMENT OF THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND.
Lord MONTEAGLE rose, pursuant to notice, to move
that a humble address be—piesented to her Majesty upon
the subject• of the encouragement of industry and of
employment among the people of Ireland. He
111 d not bring the subject forward in opposi-
tion to the Government.—(liear, hear.) It was a sub-
.fret which deserved the attention and support of
all Noble Lords present.
.It was a question involving
no p)litical considerations—it was a subject affecting the
well-being of the people of Ireland. He felt it his duty
to bring the matter forward, and place it before the no-
ticeof the Government. He was sure there was no per-

son who would deny that the late general distress in Ire-
land had been of the most alarming nature. He should
be sorry if, in proving that the present machinery for
conducting the legislation of Ireland was inadequate, he
should be considered as casting any reflection on the
late Government. The people of that country had been
in the habit of depending for their supply of food upon
the lowest kind of diet, wllich had entirely failed—he al-
luded to the failure of the potato crop: Great exertions
were made by the late Government in introducing Indian
meal, which bad prevented famine from reaching that
country, and it had also produced the most beneficial
effect in a moral point of view. It was a most difficult
problem to solve, in what manner a Government could
interfere with the food of the country, but that problem
had been most successfully solved by her Majesty's Go-
vernment in the course they had taken on this subject.
He was happy
.to say that the four first Bills passed
during this session of Parliament, were Bills for the im-
provement of Ireland, and for giving employment to the
people of that country. He thought that the Govern-
ment would have to contend with similar difficulties in
the ensuing year, unless they altered the present
system with regard to Ireland. He was not
himself an alarmist, but he really believed that
the prospects of the ensuing year were more alarming
than even the former year. There was a less quantity
of land under cultivation for the growth of potatoes than
in the preceding year, and the disease appeared to be
likely to be far more prevalent. He thought there were
symptons of an entire failure of the potato plant itself in
that country. Alluding to seasons of scarcity that had
previously taken place in that country, the Noble Lord
said they were not to be compared to the amount of
distress that was endured during the last season. Ile
believed that not a less sum than 800,0001. had been ad-
vanced to alleviate the distress of the country ; large
sums had been raised by private contributions. In the
county of Clare, Colonel Wyndham had advanced 6,000/.,
Lord Kenmaire 3,0001., another private gentleman 2,000/.,
the district committees raised 100,000/., and Govern-
ment had come forward with large sums for the same
purpose. There was also an immense amount of assist-
ance afforded by giving employment upon the laud. t;e
believed that great praise was due to the Commissariat
of Ireland. Commissariat-General Rowth and Gordon,
also deserved great praise for their indefatigable exer-
tions. In the time of Lord Grey's Government., he
(Lord Monteagle) introduced the Bill for the establish-
ment of the Board of Public Works, which was sub-
stituted for the other boards then existing ; but-the im-
mense variety of business which came before them pre-
vented them from becoming so efficient on the late occa-
sion of distress as they otherwise would have been, had
their duties been confined to the proper and legitimate
business which was their peculiar function. He men-
tioned this for the purpose of showing the utter inade-
quacy of that board to discharge with effect the business
which was lately imposed upon them. He lately applied
to them, in conjunction with his friends Lord Clare and
Lord Kenmaire, to procure e uploymenl for the relief of
the poor people who were in distress in the county of
Kerry; but early as that application was made, the pre-
liminary surveys were not yet made of those works, on
which it was designed to provide them employment.
The Noble Lord then went into a variety of details, for
the purpose of showing that a better system of central
management fur the public works of Ireland was neces-
sary. By the Act of Union the treasury of the empire
was as applicable to the wants of Ireland as to England
and Scotland. Scotland received the sum of 400,000/.,
and the condition of the people of Scotland was ad-
vanced one hundred years by that outlay. He con-
tended that there was An actual gain to the kingdom
by the expenditure of these grants. From 1822 to
1828, the revenue of the county Galway increased from
nothing to 6,8001. yearly, which completely covered the
outlay which had been made in that country, and to
which alone this increased revenue could be attributed.
The people of Ireland required superintendence more
than money, for they were not sufficiently improved in
knowledge to promote their interests in the best manner.
If they had an efficient board of works, this good would
be effected. In conclusion, he did not impute blame to
the public works, nor to the exertions of the late Go-
vernment, but he hoped that some steps would be taken
to have an efficient superintending board, for the pur-
pose of regulating the expenditure of the public grants,
and providing employment for the people.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he bad
listened with the greatest satisfaction to the address of
the Noble Lord, and he admitted the general accuracy
of the details entered upon. He hoped, however, the
Noble Lord and the House would excuse him, if he did
not go into a statement of the intentions of the Govern-
ment in regard to meeting the evils complained of. He
trustei also it would not be supposed that he avoided
doing so, because he was not aware of the importance of
it. He could assure the House that, as far as possible, it
would be the duty of the Government to do everything
in its power to provide for the state of things referred to.
In reference to the measures of the late Government, he
must bear testimony that they had done great good,
though it must be admitted that the machinery
by which the relief was administered was very
imperfect. He had no fault however to find
with what they did, as they were called upon to act
under circumstances of great emergency, and it was not
to be expected they could bring into operation a perfect
system of machinery. He begged to inform their Lord-
ships that the Government for the last week had been,
and would be for some time to come, engaged on the
consideration of a measure for giving greater efficacy to
the works, in order the more effectually to administer
relief to the people of Ireland, and for possessing full
security for the application of the sums advanced, that
they were used to forward the welfare and comfort of
the people. He pledged himself to the general accuracy
of the details of the Noble Lord. He was sorry it was
not in his power to contradict him. Woull to God that
he could say that the great evil which was , expected
again to overtake Ireland was not such as
had been represented ! He could riot say
more at present. He felt thankful for the state-
ment made by the Noble Lord, that considering the late
period of the session, and seeing that the present Go-
vernment had but so lately acceded to office, he trusted
they would excuse him from further entering into
the subject at present. In a few days a full and
authentic statement would be presented to the other
House of the expenditure of money which had been
made under the Act which had been referred to, from
which it would be seen how the funds had been applied.
The Earl of DEVON hoped the House would allow
him to address a few words on this subject, as it was
one to which he had paid great attention. He thought
there could be no dispute as to the present principle of
employing the population on public works should there
be a scarcity of employment. He would not therefore
dispute that principle; but he would endeavour to show
the difficulties and obstacles which had caused the
measures adopted in relation to Ireland not being so
successful as was expected. He thought the difficulties
did not 'arise so much as to the employment of the
people on public works, but as t ) the employment of
the people on the land. In the Bill which had been
passed to facilitate the employment of the people, so
backward were the landed proprietors to take advantage
of the clause which authorised the borrowing of money
for improving the land, to be paid again with interest in
ten years, that only one proprietor, the late Lord-
Lieutenant, took advantage of it. The effect therefore
had been that scarcely any employment was found for
the people through the operation of this clause. (The
Noble Lord gave some other instances of the same cha-
racter, to show the difficulties that were found in carrying
out the intentions of the Act. While.on this subject he
must complain of the proceedings of the late Govern-
ment as to the discretion in which they had exercised
the right given them by the recent Act passed on this
subject—that of fixing the rate of interest, and the pe-
riod at which it was to be paid when applications for
loans had been forwarded them through the Board of
Works. He thought the Government had not acted in
this matter as they ought to have done. The giving
many a means of earning an honest livelihood would
be the result of the reclamation of this waste land. To
say that no good would result from reclaiming waste
land appeared to him a perfect absurdity. These were
points to which he alluded—not for the purpose of com
plaint, but merely that attention might be turned to the
subject. The last report made by the society on that
subject, showed that there were two thousand persons
on the estate in Ireland where at one time there were
not nine cabins, and not one of those individuals had
been convicted of a single offence,—(Hear, hear.)
It was, no doubt, of great importance that
the people should be employed, and to give that employ-
ment was the great object they all had in view. It
unfortunately happened, however, that the landlords of
Ireland were not able to do this. The report of the
Board of Works on this subject came too late to enable
them to turn it to immediate account, and he trusted
that the House would act peremptorily in this matter.
Lord CLANCARTY said he thought a most im-
pertaht consideration had been brought before the
House. His Noble Friend had likewise brought before
the notice of their Lordships the advance that had been
made of publie money. The officers of these public
works had done, their work efficiently. He trusted that
a state of improved agriculture would be introduced,
that would give to the people of Ireland—as in England
—permanent employment ; but he thought at the same
time, that too much importance could not be given to
public works.—(Hear, hear.)

Lord MONTEAGLE said, after what had fallen from
the Noble Lord, he would not press his motion.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn, and their
Lordships adjourned.

The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly b
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
o'clock. ju
lli
e3folr. e Four
On the motion of Mr. GREENE, it was agreed, after
a short discussion, that the Lords' amendments to all
Bills brought from the Rouse of Lords should be con-
sidered without notice, provided such amendments
should hive been first su'lunitted to the Spsalcer.
The report on Lord Kinnaircl's (Sir John Webb's)
Estate BM was further considered, and ordered to be
printed.

TLI E STOCKPORT IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Mr. BROTLIERTON moved th it the order of the day
for the third reading of the Stockport Improvement Bill
be discharged, in order that a new Bill might be intro-
duced.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition, signed by
5,096 inhabitants of Stockport against the Bill. The
petitioners stated that nine-tenths of the inhabitants of
Stockport were opposed to the Bill. He would now
move that the Bill should be read a third time that day
' three months, as he never would agree to the third read-
ing of myth a tyrannical measure.
Mr. BROTHERTON said that the motion he had
made was tantamount to reading the Bill a third time
three months.
tha:lr. dayT. DUNCOMBE said that unless the Honour-
able Gentleman would agree to the proposition of
postponing the third reading for three months,
he should feel it to be his duty to make the
motion. The measure was a most atrocious and ty-

randeal one, and no person approved of it except those
who were t benefit under it. The parties who opposed
the measure had asked the mayor to call a meeting,
which he refused to do, or even to lend them the Tow n-
; the result was, the meeting was held in the market-
place, and resolutions were adopted against the measure,
which he believed to be a complete job. The parties
had been deceived with respect to the Bill, and did not
know kr sometime who was the coneector of tl,e measure.
He wished to know whether the Hon. Member for Sal-
ford would consent to the withdrawal of the Bill with-
out the condition which Tie had stated, viz., on the un-
derstanding that he should be allowed to reintroduce
it on a future occasion. If the Honourable Gen-
tleman would agree to that, he (Mr. Duncombe)
would abstain at present from entering at any further
length into the merits of the Bill. The fourth clause

proposed to give to the town council of Stockport the
sum of 10,000/. out of the public funds ; and in
the distribution of that sum the ratepayers would
not have the slightest control. The proposition
contained in that clause was one of the most disgraceful
proceedings which any body of men calling themselves
liberal could make.

Mr. BROTHERTON said that he certainly should
not consent to the withdrawal of the Bill on the terms
proposed by the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said he would then go at length
into the objections which he had against this Bill.
Mr.HUME trusted that the Hon. Member for Finsbury
would allow him to suggest, that as the promoters of
the Bill were anxious to have it withdrawn, he (Mr. T.
Duncombe) would be saving the time of the House
by abstaining at present from any remarks on the de-
merits of the Bill. Of course he would have the
opportunity of making those remarks which he
intended now to make, should any attempt be
hereafter made to re-introduce it.—(Hear, hear.)
He himself had received several letters from some of
the most respectable ratepayers of Stockpnrt, in confir-
mation of the statement of the Hon. Member for Fins-
bury, and should the Bill be attempted to be re-introduced
he should heartily join with that Hon. Gentleman in
opposing the Bill, but he hoped that nothing would be
at present said which would have the effect of inflaming
the excited feelings of the people of Stockport.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said he had no objection to con•
sent to the withdrawal of the Bill on the terms proposed
by the Hon. Member for Salford.
Mr. BROTHERTON refused to alter the terms of his
proposal.
Mr. MARSLAND said that, as he was interested in
the question, being one of the representatives of Stock-
ton, he might perhaps be allowed to say a few words on
this question. The Honourable G.( ntleman the Member
for Finsbury had accused the mayor of being personally
interested in the question. He could assure the lion.
Gentleman that the mayor had been represented as
hostile to the measure, because he had kept aloof, as
he had himself. They never were consulted as to
whether the waterworks should or should not be pur-
chased, and they did not know that it was in contemplation
to do so until ho saw the announcement in the Guardian.
With respect to the observation that this was a job, it
was very far from the truth, as he was positive that there
was no job in it. He had with ethers objected to many
of its clauses. The town council of Stockport were far
more liberal than any body of the same nature to be
found in Finsbury. It was composed of rate-
payers, and all were admitted from the highest
to the lowest. It had been characterised as a

gross job by one of the magistrates who was not a
ratepayer, and who wished to make it a gross job. He
begged to say that, having objections to some of the
clauses, he had consulted as to the proper means of
opposing them. -
Sir It. H. INGLIS said that the Hon. Member had
offered to withdraw his opposirion, provided that no
other Bill were brought in. He (Sir R. H. Inglis)
thought that the late period of the session would gait-
rantee that no other measure of the kind could be
brought in.
Mr. ESTCOURT said he had been drawn into this mat-
ter, and he had had a good deal of correspondence on the
subject. He did not think that if the House were toappoint
a Committee—he was satisfied that it would not, in the
opinion of the Hon. Member f Montrose, he such a
Committee as would be satisfactory. But he would
further observe that if the Hon. Member were to bring
in another Bill, as he trusted he would, he should have
his support.
Lord GRA.NVILLE SOMERSET was afraid that,
if another Bill were to be brought in containing the
same clauses it would be equally unsatisfactory.
Mr. BROTHF;RTON would emphatically deny the
charges that had been made against the inhabitants of
Stockport on this Bill. If the motion of the Elon. Mem-
ber for Finsbury for the withdrawal of this Bill were
acceded to by the House, he should certainly bring in
another Bill to the same effect. It was only the cot-
ton-spinners who wished the smoke of their factories
not to be stopped, and the publicans who wished to
keep their houses open on Sunday, and persons in a
similar position. who were petitioners against this Bill.
The Bill was for making parks, improving the streets,
and making other sanatory regulations. Great numbers
of Bills of similar character to this had been passed this
session without a words and if the Bill were thrown out
he should certainly bring in another Bill of the same
kind.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that one division would do,
and he should, therefore, move that the Bill be read this
day three months.
Mr. HUMS was anxious to have for Stockport fair
Illy. He thought, under the present circumstances, it
would. be the best course to allow the order of the day
to be discharged. That done, he hoped, before the next
session of Parliament, some general measure would he
introduced for the regulation of police in all towns, and
also a measure for market improvement.. He hoped
that at pres.ent the matter would be amicably settled
without a division.
Mr. B. ESCOTT wished the lion. Member for Stock-
port to give some information of the meeting respecting
the Pill which had limn referred to.
Mr. M NRSLAND could not give any information
respecting the meeting. He had left the town b fore
the meeting took place, and he had not had any. com.
munication with the parties to it since then.
Mr. BRIGHT wished to bear testimony that the pro-
moters of the Bill had no other object in view than
the welfare of Stockport. The real difficulty ex-
perienced in that town was that the promoters
of the Bill were desirous of having power for
the levying of rates for the improvement of the town,
while the small ratepayers were against it, and at pre-
sent refused the granting of any rates for that purpose
at any meetings that might be called for that pur-
pose. No danger could arise from the passing of the
Bill, because the power was vested in the town council,
which represented the great body of the inhabitants.
He had risen merely to give his testimony in favour of
the promoters of the Bill.

Mr. DUNCO MBE said he would withdraw his amend-
ment on the understanding that the Bill would be with-
drawn.
The amendment was then withdrawn. and the order
of the day for the third reading of the Bill discharged.
Mr. BROTHERTON then moved for leave to bring
in a fresh Bill on the subject—the Stockport Improve-
ment Act, No. 2.
Some discussion then arose as to wheter the lion.
Member was in order in giving notice of a second Bill
on the subject.
The SPEAKER said that it was competent for the
Hon. Member to move for leave to bring in a fresh Bill.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE thought the House should know
something, of the nature of the Bill about to be intro-
duePd.

Mr. BROTHERTON said he did not know what the
Bill would be; if he hal leave to bring in a Bill he
thought it would be one of the same nature as the .pre-
s ,nt Bill, which had been approved of by the Hon.
Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means, Mr.
Greene

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that the Hon. Member the
Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means had
informed him that he had nothing to do with the Bill;
if, therefore, the Hon. Member for Salford proposed to
bring in a Bill similar to the one approved by that Hon.
Member, he did not know where it was to be found.
Sir G. GREY wished to explain to the House the
part he had taken in this Bill. Great objections were
made to seve"al clauses of the Bill, and it was suggested
by the Hon. Member the Chairman of the Committee
of Ways and Means that it was a subject which should be
brought under the consideration of the Home-office.
He had accordingly examined the Bill, and had struck
out several objectionable clauses.
Mr. MARSLAND said that he had objected to se-
veral clauses of the Bill, but he thought it a very
anomalous state of things that the Bury and Manchester
Improvement Acts should have been passed with pre-
cisely the same clauses as there were in the present Bill,
and yet that this Bill was not allowed to be proceeded
with.

Mr. GREENE said, that on a former occasion when
the Bill was before the House, he stated his opinion that
several of the clauses were of a highly ohjectionable
nature ; he was still of the same opinion.
Mr. HUME hopei the Hon. Member for Salford
would not press his Bill at the present time. He
was sure that the Bill would not be allowed
to pass with its present objectionable clauses.
It was impossible for any man to suppose that it was
possible to carry such a Bill as this through the House,
and he, therefore, as a peacemaker, begged of his Hon.
Friend the member for Salford not to persist in his
motion.—(W.ar, hear.)
Mr. ESTCOURT approved of the suggestion of the
lion. Member for Montrose. There could be no ne-
cessity for pressing this Bill forward during the present
session. The Hon. Member for Finsbury, as well as the
Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Mean, had
inspected the Bill, and pronounced it to be
an unjust measure. Under these circumstances he
should vote with the lion. Gentleman the Member for
Fini4ury,

Mr. 11'11,0THEIZTON said he had no personal interest
whatever in the Bill, nor had he any strong feeling either
for or against it ; but he did hope that the House would
exercise its discretion in this matter. Whatever their
decision might be, he should cheerfully bow to it. No-
tice was given of this Bill in the regular manner, and it
proceeded as far as this, the last stage, without any
opposition. Nu petition was presented against it, with
the exception of that presented by the Hon. Ms.milier for
Finsbury. He did think that the town council of Stockport
had been harshly used in this matter. He felt bound
to divide the House on this question.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said, that one of the Hon. Mem-
bers for Stockport (Mr. Marsland) had presented a peti-
tion, s'gned by between 5,000 and 6,000 ratepayers of
the borough, against the all.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when
there appeared—

For the motion ... 32
Against it

Against the Bill being brAught itt —8
METROPOLITAN SEWAGE MANURE BILL.

The report and further consideration of this Bill was
postponed to Monday next.