The Sun.
London, England, 1848-02-23 00:00:00

TAR ar 14, VO .13 ONo W d

bov far ituoka hi thinking that weva nut at
all borne out in their course by the precedents which hail
been quoted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
plained that his misapprehension had been as to the
secret character of the Committee. All he had origi-
nally intended, and all he wanted now was, that the Corn •
mittee should have the power, when necessary, of sup-
pressing evidence.
In answer to Mr. NEWDEG ATE,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Committee would follow the course adopted by that
of 1828.

Mr. HUME hoped that the Committee would be
properly appointed, and would not be composed princi-
pally of men who were hardened in large estimates.—
(Laughter.) He trusted that the Committee would do
its duty, and that the House would agree to no more
votes for the army or navy until it (the Committee)
had made its report. There was no point on which the
country had a stronger opinion than the necessity of re-
ducing our naval and military expenses.
Sir R. PEEL said that the Hon. Member for Bucks
had misunderstood what bad fallen from him (Sir R.
Peel) on the previous evening if he thought he had con-
tended that the course now proposed was sanctioned by
that which had been previously taken. His chief object
in rising on the precious day had been to inquire
whether precedents would justify the appointment of a
Secret Committee.—(Hear, hear.) His recollection was
at variance with that of the Noble Lord opposite. In
the former Committee, although it had exercised a
proper discretion as to withholding certain portions of
the evidence, still it was only a Select not a Secret
Committee. Sometimes Committees had been ap-
pointed by ballot, but those of 1797 and 1607
had been appointed by nomination. He believed
he was right in affirming that all the Committees
which had been mentioned were Select and not Secret
Committees. Now, although he should not oppose this
Committee, he was bound to say that he was perfectly
ready to give his opinion on the estimates, should they
be brought forward in the usual form, and he was sure
that the Noble Lord himself would acknowledge that no
Select Committee could discharge the functions of the
executive with the force or quickness which the public
exigencies required.—(Hear, hear.) Ho trusted that
this Committee was not to be looked upon as redeeming
the Executive from any portion of its responsibility.
He was prepared to consider the estimates as prepared
on the responsibility of Government. He knew, from
recent experience, that the imputations thrown upon the
Executive of a desire to increase the estimates was one
entirely unfounded. He believed it was the interest and
desire of Governments generally to bring down the esti-
mates as low as possible. The impression that they
were kept up for the purposes of patronage, of extended
military appointments, of gratifying supporters by
having commissions to give away—he believed that all
impressions on that bead were utterly erroneous, and
that it was decidedly for the interest of an administra-
tion, looking at its stability, that the estimates should
be as low as they could be made.—(Hear, hear.)
He must say that, after the panic which had
prevailed in this country, after the alarm which had
pervaded large classes of the community, he was glad to
see that both had visibly abated. lie confessed that he
had been under some apprehension that Government
would be unduly influenced by that alarm, and was
rather relieved to find thet no increase was proposed in
the estimates. He had read the letter of a Noble
Friend of his for whom he entertained a high respect,
indicating the course which should be taken in case of
invasion.—(A laugh.) That letter stated that in such
an emergency the duty of the Lord Mayor of London
would be—not to summon the citizens to its defence—
but to make the Mansion-house head-quarters for
making out billets for the French army.—(Laughter.)
He must say that when he read that letter, he thought
it gave a most imperfect and unjust account of the spirit
of Englishmen.—(Cheers.) He did not mean of the
military—eves that splendid corps the Guards, which
his Noble Friend had since relieved from all im-
putation—but of the strength of the country, of the
spirit of the men of mature age—aye, and even
the old men and old women.—(Cheers, and laughter.)
He verily believed that if the Lord Mayor,
instead of occupying himself in the defence of
the metropolis, were to abandon that duty for the
purpose of billeting the French army, he would perform
that duty in secret, and dare not show himself in Cheap-
aide.—(Cheers and laughter.) He was perfectly con-
vinced that if an attempt should be made to subject this
country either to insult or invasion, it was difficult to
estimate the spirit with which such an attempt would
be met,—(Hear, hear.) He said nothing against the
propriety of taking proper precautions, because, although
we knew what would be the ultimate result of any at-
tempt, yet even the most partial success must be accom-
panied with much ruin to private fortune and great demo.'
lotion.—(Hear.) But he confessed that on seeing the
estimates, after reading all the recent publications, so far
from being astounded by the proposition of the Govern-
ment, he was greatly relieved by the proposition of the
Noble Lord. Ho thought that a wise discretion had
beefi exercised in not increasing the naval or military
forces. None but a Government could know the
amount of force necessary; and when a proposition
Was made on the responsibility of Government, the
Circumstances must be very clear which could induce
him, as a private individual, to offer any opposition
to such proposal. He would only say that,
looking at the present state of the world, and the
disposition which we ourselves showed to increase our
colonial empire—looking at Labuan, Hong-Kong, and
other recent acquisitions, which were much approved of,
especially, by the mercantile community—he was not
surprised that large increases in our naval and military
establishments should be necessary. He could not look
at what had occurred in China so very recently without
seeing that a necessity might spring up at. any moment
for protecting the lives and properties of British subjects
in distant parts of the world.—(Hear, hear.) If Govern-
ment, therefore, recommended a small addition in the
marines and scientific corps, be did not feel justified in
offering any opposition. They should look also to Italy,
Spain, and, in the New World, to Mexico, particularly
with reference to the spirit which seemed to be animat
ing the American public—a spirit which he thought
would act to their own detriment—(Hear, hear)—he did
say, looking at all these things, that it was not unrea-
sonable in the present year to ask that our military and
naval establishments might not be reduced. That was
the conelusion to which he had come, founded upon
those means of observation which were open to every
Member of the House. He was prepared, therefore, to
discuss these estimates, and give his assent to
them generally, without the intervention of any
Committee. At the same time, as Government in-
vited the co-operation of the Hope in considering
an the details of the estimates, and in inquir-
ing into the amount of the force, the reason why Go-
vernment consider that amount necessary, together with
the mode of conducting the military establishments of
the country, it being understood that such inquiry was
not to interfere whit the discretion of the Government
and their responsibility as to the amount of the force,
he thought it possible that some public advantage might
result. He thought public advantage had resulted from
Similar inquiries in former years. He must, however,
agree with the llon. Member for Montrose, that much
would depend on the constitution of the Committee. It
would not be satisfactory if wholly composed of persons
" hardened to high estimates"—(Hear, and a laugh)—
or of men influenced by official habits. But if the in-
quiry were conducted by men who would exercise a full
and free judgment upon all points of public expenditure
brought within their notice—of course he meant that the
inquiry should be conducted by a Select and not a Secret
Committee—it was possible that some reduction in the
public expenditure might be effected without prejudice
to the public service. It would, however, be a most
objectionable precedent if they attempted to interfere
with the functions of the Government in respect to
the estimates which they had on their own responsibility
brought forward; and it was because that was his
opinion that he stated he .was prepared to assent gene-
rally to the estimates as they had been laid before the
House.
Mr. BRIGHT could assure the Right Hon. Baronet
that so far as the north of England was concerned, the
panic which prevailed had no reference to any fee: of
French invasion, but rather to an apprehension that that
cry would be made the pretext for increasing the military
forces of the country, and so"to add to the burden of
taxation.—(Hear, hear.) Neither was this alarm alto.
gether groundless, for the people remembered well that
some years ago a senseless rumour of a war with
Russia, and subsequently a foolish pamphlet published
by a French Prince, had been seized by the Government
of the day as grounds for adding to our military and
naval establishments. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
stated that there was to be no increase in the army;
but, as he understood, the 5,000 men who had been re-
cruited for India, but who were uo longer required
there, were to be made part of the permanent force of
this country. What was that but an increase of the
Military force of the country ?—(Hear, hear.) The
Bight Honourable Baronet had referred to the necessity
of giving protection to our colonies. He (Mr. Bright)
Zlita one of those who thought that if the colonies
they
more responsibility thrown upon themselves, if
had to bear the expenses of the wars they in-
v°Ked by their squabbles with the nations—as in the
ease of New Zealand and the Cape—we should have no
6,11... eh items as 1,100,000/ for the cost of the Kafir war.—
(Rear, hear.) He concurred with the Right Hon.
Baronet as to the responsibility of Ministers in bringing
forward the estimates, but be could not forget that every
Member was individually responsible to his constituents
for any addition that might be made to the burdens of a
rople already suffering from severe distress.—(Hear,
6er.) Again, though the Noble Lord did not propose
any actual addition to the number of men voted for the
LittnY. he had intimated that the country must look for-
ward to a gradual augmentation of that force; and when
they found that in about ten years the estimates for the
ar
what
and navy had increased from 11 to 17 millions,
esaa o.•
* security had they that in ten years more another
en Millions would not be added ?—(Hear, hear.) As
'l3 What had been said about not interfering with the
resent estimates, it was rather an extraordinary doc-
trine for their days to hold that the army, navy, and
ordnance establishments were such sacred things that
•Pl.eY must not be touched by a Committee of that House.
e"'" would say, if Ministers refused to sanction the re.
~nendation of the Committee of' the House—sup-
Itr'ng that the result of the inquiry Altould be to.show
at some reduction might safely be made—their course
would bo to vacate their offices.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP hoped the proposed Commit-
'4e would extend their inquiries to the salaries of the
fpencipal officers of the several public departments.
*s' however, thought it a dangerous precedent to
es an sf_
er the functions of the House of Commons to any
"'met Committee. He anticipated no good result from
the
TurY• With regard to the financial scheme of
eongtpeorisa there was but ono feeling throughout this
itne
But, if IN and that was a feeling of disgust.—([sear.)
Cho r vm people had only the courage, the spirit, and
'eaverance to make their remonstrances heard

faseseeeeseeeeseiasaateeeee--essaseseeee seeeiiieee e4seeziea#seessaeve
In that lionise, the Noble laird anti his colleagesee might
bid a speedy adieu to offiee.—(llear.) It !eight be
asked, who were the men 'o take their plaecs ?
he (Colonel Sibtliorp)?—(dear, and a laugh.) For Lc,
price in the world would he accept office —(Renews ;
laughter.) But he would say to the people of this
country, " Take your stand, and do your duty as Elie
lishmen ought to do, and you will soon find an honest
Ministry."—(Bear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—There was one misappre-
hension into which the Hon. Member for Buckingham
shire (Mr. Disraeli) had fallen, which, considering' the
study he bad devoted to the subject, was somewhat
extraordinary. The Honourable Member stated that
the appointment of a Select Committee was an abandon-
ment by the House of its privilege of voting and enti-
rising the estimates. Nothing could he more mistaken
than that view. The appointment of a Select Committee,
though it gave the ll ruse the benefit of the information
it obtained, and perhaps the opinion to which it might
arrive, by no means deprived the House of the power is
possessed of voting or refusing the estimates. The Hun.
Gentleman, though he showed that the precedents o'
former years were not exactly followed in this case, hail
failed in showing that they were not so nearly followed
as circumstances permitted; nor that those precedents
did not form authority for the course Ministers were
now pursuing; nor was it unfair to say that, whereas
in former times when the income of the country was
much less than at present, and the expenditure greatly
contracted, all subjects relating to such income war..
referred to one Committee.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
when both the income and expenditure were se
largely increased, one Committee could not well
extend its inquiries to all those subjects; and that,
therefcre, the investigation should be limited, in the first
instance, to certain branches only of the whole subject.
This was not abandoning precedent, it was merely
adapting it to the present time and to present circum-
stances. It did not appear to him necessary in the first
instance to do moee than to appoint a Committee on the
miscellaneous estimates, and it was the misapprehension
which appeared to prevail as to the estimates generally
which had induced him to think it advisable to have the
whole matter calmly and dispassionately considered by a
Committee of the House of Commons. The Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had spoken correctly when he
said that, with respect to the navy and army, Govern-
ment did not propose any increase in the present votes
over those of last year, and the slight increase which it
was proposed to make in the number of the marines was
not in consequence of any alarm which had infected
Ministers, Hor of anything they had heard as to what
might be doing by foreign countries; butsit was merely
carrying nut an object which had been announced last
year.—(Hear, hear.) So far from proposing any
great armament, it was proposed to take only the
same number of men for the army and navy as
were voted last year, together with that addition to the
number of marines which last year it had been thought
advisable to make, but which addition had been deferred
till the present year. It might not have occupied any
very long time had these matters been left to be dis-
cussed by the Committee of the whole House, but it
had been thought that perhaps upon the whole it might
be more satisfactory that there should be an inquiry
more in detail than could be carried on by the House,
and that they should have the advantage of such sug-
gestions for future economy as might be made by the
Committee. With regard to the number of men to be
voted, Government did not wish to get aid of any part of
their responsibility: they thought that the consideration
of such matters properly belonged to the Executive,
which ought to propose to the House such amount of
force for the several departments of the public service
as they, acting on their responsibility, thought neces-
sary. No doubt the House had also a responsibility
in the matter, and if they should be of opinion that
the estimates proposed by Government were ex
cessiee, and should decide upon cutting theM down, by
taking 10,000, or any other number, of men from the
army and navy, and the Government did not consider
that such a reduction could with safety be made, it
would be their duty to abdicate their offices.—(Herr.)
He was extremely sorry to learn that in the case of such
an event arising, her Majesty would not have the benefit
of the services of the Hon. and Gallant Colonel (Sib-
thorp).—(A laugh.) Before he sat down he wished to
correct a misapprehension into which the Hon. Member
for Manchester and others had fallen, in supposing from
what he said on Friday night that he proposed to in-
crease the estimates for the military forces of the country
year by year: whatever the language he had used on the
occasion referred to, that was by no means his meaning.
—(Hear.) He had heard much—perhaps more than the
public generally—of the insufficiency of the force we had
to repel any attempt at foreign aggression, and of the
neglect of Government in making preparations for the
sudden breaking out of hostilities, and he endeavoured to
show that that subject had not been lost sight of ; that
by continuing, year by year, in the course they had
adopted, of devoting a certain sum every year to the im-
provement of our national defences, without making any
actual increase in the force employed, they were placing
the country in such a situation of strength, that there
was no reason to fear for the result in the event of any
sudden outbreak of hostilities, and that by laying out the
'same sum, or even a diminished sum every year in this
way, our position became strengthened year by year.
This was the view in which he spoke, and his ob-
ject was to show that what it was complained that
Government had not done, had in fact been done
by each successive Government for years past. He
concurred with the Hon. Member for Manchester that
the colonies might fairly be made to bear a portion of
the expense incurred in the defence.—(Hear, hear.)
Government could not permit the life and property of
its subjects to be destroyed in our colonies, and means
must therefore he provided for their protection, but be
fully admitted that it was hard to call upon the mother
country to bear the whole expense.—(Hear, hear.) In
the same way, whenever British subjects were in foreign
countries, in case of danger or outrage, whether arising
from the act of the Government or from popular insur-
rection, it was expected that the property and persons
of those subjects would be protected by a British force.
This necessity for protection might. occur in any part of
the world. If British subjects were in danger in Mes-
sina, in Palermo, or in the Canton river, the question
was, " Where is the British ship to protect us ?" And
Government would be open to blame if they did pro-
vide less protection than British subjects had hitherto
received, or if the name of an Englishman was less an
object of respect in foreign countries than it used to be
in former times. He did not shrink from the part he
bad taken in proposing these estimates, and ho assured
the Noble Lord (Bentinck) that while ha (Lord J.,
Russell) held the office ha did he would never shrink
from that responsibility which attached to him, and that
he wanted no Commit'e to screen him from the con-
sequences.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BANKES concurred with his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Disraeli), that by at-pointing this Committee the respon-
sibility was in a great degree withdrawn, both from the
Ministers of the Crown and the House of Commons.
The inquiry was proposed only in consequence of the
notice given by the Hon. Member for Montrose to post-
pone the estimates until after the decision of the House
on the Budget. He feared the inquiry might be so far
mischievous as it might lead foreigners to suppose that
the object was to make preparations for hostilities. In
other respects he concurred with the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Sir R. Peel) that the people who were now called
upon to bear, in addition to their present distress, in-
creased taxation, should be satisfied the proposed esti-
mates were absolutely necessary for the public service.
If the results should be to show that a reduction of the
expenditure of the country was possible it would be re-
ceived with gratitude by the public. With regard to
the misapprehension to which the Noble Lord had
alluded, he believed it bad arisen from his saying that
the 150,000/. he proposed for the establishment of a
militia force was the beginning of a new system. He
(Mr. Bankes) hoped they would have no more of this
militia vote this year, and if the militia should ever again
be established, he trusted that the service would be
voluntary and not compulsory.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS objected to any Government dele-
gating its functions to others, and governing the country
by means of a Committee of the House of Commons. The
only consolation he had in the present case was in the
assurance given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
repeated by his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell), that
Goverment intended to abide by their estimate to the
letter, and that if they were not approved of by the
Committee, and the House should in consequence make
any alteration in them, his Noble Friend would abdis
sate his office.—(Hear, hear.) If he adopted any such
alteration, either in principle, distribution, or amount,
he would be utterly unworthy of the confidence of the
House and the position he held—(Hear, hear)—and it
was only because he believed from his Noble Friend's
high character that he would adhere, under any circum-
stances, to his own estimates, and not adopt any other,
that he permitted this motion to pass without dividing
against it.
Captain HARRIS contended that the alarm as to
foreign invasion was not altogether unfounded, seeing
the propability of the war party in France coming into
power.—(Oh, oh.) It was within the limits of proba-
bility that within a few years a body of foreign troops
might be thrown on our shores, and if so, it was the
opinion of the loading officers of both services that our
defences were net equal to such an emergency.
iMr. SLANEY hoped the Committee would extend
tbeir inquiry to the altered value of money of late years
as compared with the price of articles of necessity, with
the view of ascertaining how far the salaries of public
officers might be reduced. Should the Committee re-
commend reduction, and the Noble Lord should be con-
vinced that it might be adopted without injury to the
public service, he hoped that he would act upon such re-
commendation, notwithstanding the appeal of the Hon.
Member for Oxford University.—(Hear.)
Mr. S. CRAWFORD looked to this Committee as a
convenient means of propping up extravagance.—
(Heal:, hear.) The estimates ought to be subjected to
the freest discussion in the House without being referred
to any Select Committee.
Mr. COBDEN said that in the reasons put forward
against these Committees he did not concur.—(Hear.)
He did not conceive that by their appointment the juris-
diction of the House was taken away. They were to be
appointed for the purpose of examining into the details
of the miscellaneous, the army, the navy, and the ord-
nance services, and whatever might be their decision,
he should feel himself perfectly at liberty to vote with
the Hon. Member for Montrose against any increase in
these departments. It wax supposed both in and out of
that House, that those Committees would disclose some
mysterious secrets, Now, he believed that there were
no secrets to be disclosed. He believed that the
newspapers of the clay communicated to the public the
secrets of every Government, sooner even than the
diplomatists themselves. The day for plots and national
conspiracies was gone by, and, as for France, she could
not dispose of a five-franc piece without its becoming
matter of discussion in the Chamber of Deputies. He,
therefore, contended that these Committees in no way
deprived Hon. Members of their right to vote upon any
estimate submitted to them. He maintained, en the

contrary, that the) whole) responsibility of voting those
estimates lay with that House, and not with the F.xecu-
tive Governs ont, whose duty simply
.consisted in pro•
• posing them. The pinch was coming fast upon dices,
snd they could not screen themselves from the responsis
1).14 of voting too much money by attempting to throw
lit on the Executive Government. The country was
s,etting a great relish for common sense, and ha was
tneretore glad of this dispute about the property tax.
As far as economy was concerned, he admitted that the
Reform Act had proved a failure, although in other re-
spects it hail worked wonders ; and if the doctrine were
to prevail that the Executive Government was to be the
party responsible for voting away the public money, then
would he defy any absolute Government or despotism to
increase taxation with equal readiness. In fact, no despot
would venture it., for he would be afraid of his neck.
Who was to be responsible, if the Parliament threw the
responsibility upon the Government, and the Govern-
ment flung it back upon the Parliament? The Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam worth said that the
people called for more colonies. True ; but why did
Noble Lords and Right Hon. Gentlemen in that House
continually flutter the people by referring to the pos-
session of au empire on which the sun never sets? The
lamentable massacre at Canton had been referred to as
an excuse for demanding more money ; but, while it
took place, we had ten ships of war in the Tagus, in-
cluding four steamers, and 4,812 sailors.—(Hear, hear.)
Reserving to himself a perfect independence as to what
these proposed Committees might do, he should in the
tneantitne vote against the increase, and for diminution.
Mr. BUCK observed that the predictions of the lion.
Gentleman, made two years ago, that the principles of
free trade would secure the prosperity of the country,
had not been fulfilled.—(Cheers from Lord G. Batitinck
and others.) When these predictions were made, and
when those who declined to concur in them were invidi-
ously described as monopolists, every class in the com-
munity might be said to have been in a prosperous con-
dition; whereas now, that those principles had been car-
ried out, they were steeped in misery.—(Hear.)
Mr. C. P. VILLIERS congratulated the Hon. Gen-
tleman who had just spoken on the disappointment he
must have experienced at not finding that the principles
of free trade, in accordance with his predictions, had
ruined the agriculturists.—(Hear, hear.) That Hon.
Gentleman was the advocate of a high price for corn.
Now, not only corn, but all provisions had been dearer
in 1847 than in previous years, and what was the conse-
quence ? Why, that there had been a much greater
depression of trade.—(Hear, hear.) In his (Mr. Vil-
liers's) opinion the evil effects of the corn-laws would be
Mt for some years to come.
The resolutions *ere then agreed to.
THE SLAVE TRADE.

Mr. HUTT rose to move for a Select Committee to
consider the best means which Great. Brite;e eeeld
adopt for mitigating the horrors of the slave trade, and
providing for its final extinction. The Hon. Member
proceeded to observe that he believed this country had
uselessly expended 21,000,0001. in endeavours to sup-
press the slave trade, and were as uselessly adding to
that immense expenditure. Instead of suppressing the
slave trade, it was now more extensively carried on than
before we had made any attempts to suppress it. The
papers before the House prove this. It was said that
if we were only to increase our squadron on the
coast of Africa we would effectually put down the slave
trade. He utterly denied it. He believed that if we
indulged in all those fancies which obstructed the manu-
facturing industry of the country, if we deprived the
people of the means of education—if, in a word, we
poured forth the treasury of England in an attempt to
put down the slave trade by force, we should only be
adding to its extent and its horrors. Our whole system
was, therefore, an error, in attempting to do by force
what could only be accomplished by other means. We
already knew what difficulties there were in suppressing
a contraband trade which produced a profit of 30 per
c'ent. How much were those difficulties increased as
regarded the slave trade, which offered a profit of 1,000,
1,500, and sometimes, as shown in the case of " Buren v.
Denman," of 2,000 per cent. on the coast of Brazil.
Excepting that of the United States, he believed there
was no Government honestly co-operating with us to
put down the slave trade. France had a fleet of
twenty-six vessels on the coast of Africa, but they
were not vested with sufficient authority to be available
for that purpose; and, according to the papers before
Parliament, had done less to extinguish that trade
than the fleet of the Queen of Portugal. The
Hon. Member, having pointed out some of the effects
of trade, observed that notwithstanding those effects,
ladies of the highest rank, and ministers of religion,
as well as persons of the lowest condition in Brazil,
were ready to turn the slave-trade into a profitable
account. It was absolutely carried on by joint-stock
companies, and was looked upon in Brazil as the most
thriving branch of commerce. He regretted that the
ships in which this trade was carried on were built by
the United States, to whom he bad accorded the merit
of assisting our endeavours of suppressing the trade,
and that amongst those ships was the Agnes, built at
Baltimore, and "said to be the property of a Quaker.
—(A laugh.) He regretted also that British subjects
should, according to the statement of the Right Hon.
Baronet (the Member for Tamworth) in 1845, be en-
gaged in the slave-trade. In 1795 Mr. Pitt said that
the number of slaves taken annually from the west
coast of Africa amounted to 80,000. In 1820 the
African Society stated them in a letter to the Duke of
Wellington, at 70,000; and in 1835 Lord J. Russell cal-
culated that they were not less than 100,000. So that
the number in 1835 exceeded by 30 per cent. the num-
ber reported to the Duke of Wellington in 1820. He
took these facts from the parties stating them; but
there were ample reasons to believe them true. Other
information of a valuable character had been communi-
cated to the Admiralty by Dr. Bryson, and even the
evidence in the blue books, now on the table of the
House, showed that the slave-traders bad now introduced
vessels of a smaller build, in order the better to be able
to carry on their traffic in security. A letter from Mr.
Goring, the Consul at Pernambuco, stated that these
vessels carried crews varying from 8 to 14 men, but had
stowed away on board them from 150 to 300 human
beings, without space to lie down or even to stir. This
at least showed at what expense to humanity the existing
suppression system was carried on. But unhappily the
African negroes were not the only persons who suffered
—there were besides the subjects of the Crown, the
countrymen of every Member ofthe House brought in this
vortex of pestilence and death. On the west coast of
Africa there were generally from 27 to 30 British ships
employed to suppress the traffic in slaves—those ships
bearing from 4,000 to 5,000 sailors and marines. This fact
was alone sufficient to induce the Legislature to pause be-
fore it continued its sanction to the existing system of sup-
pression. The mortality among these crews surpassed
all imagination. In one year one ship alone (the Eden)
lost, in less than six months, 111 men, out of a crew of
160 men.—(Hear, hear.) In 1837, it pas proved that
the mortality averaged 13 per cent; and; besides, there
were considerable numbers sent home invalided, with
ruined constitutions. Such a destruction of human life.
and of health and constitution, ought to induce the House
to interfere in rectemmending the Government to with-
draw the fleet. Turning from this point, he came to
another part of the subject well deserving of considera-
tion on the present occasion—he meant the annual ex-
pense incurred under the system now practised for sup-
pressing the slave trade. For several years he had en-
deavoured to ascertain the exact amount of these
expenses. He, as well as the Honourable
Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), had moved
for many accounts, but had never been able to as-
certain the extact truth. But, from such materials as he
had, he could state the following as the result of careful
examination. The annual expense of the squadron em-
ployed on the west coast of Africa he estimated at
300,000/.• of that on the east coast at 150,0001.; at
Sierra Lone, the Gambia, Gold Coast, and other
stations, 20,0001.; the Commission Court and super
annuation allowances at 25,0001; the bounty to officers
and crews for captured slaves, 50,0001.; for bills drawn
on account of liberated Africans, 30,000/.; and for mis-
cellaneous charges, 30,0001.; the whole amount to
650,0001. per annum—which, he contended, was worse
than thrown away.—(Hear, hear.) And now he might
be asked how, after thus condemning the whole system,
he was prepared to deal with this important but truly
painful subject of the slave trade? He answered most
unequivocally, " Leave the slave trade to itself."—(Hear,
hear.) If merchants would engage in it, let the guilt of
such a nefarious and unholy traffic rest upon their own
heads, and leave them to a higher tribunal than any
human ingenuity could erect. He knew it would be
stated by the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
that if this country withdrew her cruizers from the
' African coast, the stream of slavery would rush forth
like a torrent, and that for every man now embarked in
that trade, five men would do so. But he (Mr. Hutt)
denied the truth and justice of such an inference.
He did not believe that if the people of Cuba and the
Brazils saw that four-and-a-half millions might be added
to their population, and that thereby so great a dispro-
portion in point of numbers might be created between
the white and black population, they would be actuated
by a sense of self-preservation, and would endeavour to
avert so dire and awful a sacrifice of human life as the
history of the island of St. Domingo presented as having
arisen from the same cause. There existed, he believed,
in the Colonial Office a petition from Cuba im-
ploring the Imperial Government, in the most earnest
and energetic language, to take the necessary
steps to stop such an influx as the only means of
averting from that community so dire a misery. The
same was the case with the Brazils. Let the British
Government, then, let Cuba and the Brazils know that,
unless they came forward to stop the traffic in slaves, it
would be impossible to rescue them from a bloody revo-
lution, and this would induce them to exercise the
powers those countries possessed to prevent the intro-
duction of slaves.—(Hear, hear.) Finally, he believed
that the slave trade was now only kept alive by the
ignorant and meddling interference of the British Go-
vernment—(Hear, hear)—who, if they wished its final
extinction, ought to leave it alone. In conclusionthe
trusted the House would think that ho bad made out a
prima facie case for the Committee for which he now
asked.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. JACKSON said that, in rising for the first time
to address the House, his apology was that he had for a
period of sixteen years been engaged in the commerce
carried on with the coast of Africa. On this ground he
claimed the indulgence of the House.—(gear, hear.)
He rose for the purpose of seconding the motion made
by the Hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Hutt), and he
did so for three reasons, the first of which was that a
charge had been brought against the 'nomiees of this
country engaged in the traffic between the wi e. apt
of Africa and England. The Hon. Member seemed Lts
infer that the British merchants had, to a certain extent,
a guilty knowledge of Lthe nefarious transactions car-
ried on on the African coast. Now he (Mr. Jackson),
in connexion with his late partner, had carried on, while
in business, commercial transactions between Liverpool
and every river and almost every creek on the west
coast of Africa; with Sierra Leone, the Gallinas, Cape
at. John, the Gold Coast, Bonney, New and Old Ca-

Inbar. Longo, down to the Cape of Good Hope; and he
could say that not one individual was ever a party to
any transaction connected s%ith slavery. On the con-
trary, he had no hesitation in stating th it no parties its
this country had done more to extirpate slavery than
had the British merchants engaged in the trade ant:
commerce carried on with the westeru coast of Afri,ei.—
(Hear, hear.) In support of this statement, he (Mr.
Jackson) had only to state one single fact. 'The gen-
tleman with whom he (Mr. Jackson) had been connected
as a partner thought fit, as a matter not of philanthropy,
but of pounds, shillings, and pence, finding that the
slave trade interfered with the legitimate commerce, to
send out a vessel on a voyage of discovery to go from
port to port, from river to river, from bay to bay, in
order to ascertain by what means and commodities the
slave dealers purchased their slaves; to bring
back samples of the goods bartered for slaves,
and to see if the natives, by a system of direct
commerce, could not be induced to use their slave
labour at hk..me in cultivating the produce of theircountry
to exchange for British manufactures. And what had
been the result ? The vessel went out on her voyage of
discovery and brought home samples of the goods with
which the Brazilians paid for slaves, and it was found
that nine-tenths of these goods were of British manu-
facture. And upon this what had he and his partner
done ? Why, they fitted out a ship freighted with
exactly the same articles, and sent her to the strenghol3
—the very nest of the slave trade—and during the whole
time she was there, and as long as her hatches were
open, the goods went in exchange for produce, end they
got their ship filled with a cargo of palm oil, while the
operations of every slave ship, having on board the same
description of manufactured goods, were wholly sus-
pended.—(Hear, hear) This was evidence that the
natives would willingly open a legitimate trade, and he
contended that the existing system for the suppression
of the slave trade had proved an entire failure. Nay,
more, he was prepared to show that since the abolition
of slavery by this country more misery had been suffered
by those whom it was intended to benefit and protect
than had existed before philanthropists had achieved
that object.—(Hear.) He said this after an experience
of 16 years ; and although he was not accustomed to
public speaking, he must state his views on a question to
which he had long given his whole heart and soul.—
(Hear.) Speaking from experience, and information
subsequently acquired, he felt convinced that this coun-
try was doing wrong in persisting in the mode in which
the present relations with Africa were conducted—be
considered that to a certain extent this country was in
error in endeavouring to prevent a traffic between the
West India islands and the western coast of Africa. On
the western coast he knew full well that a supply of free
labour could be obtained to any amount. The price of
a slave on the coast was about 41.; to plant him in the
West India islands would involve a cost of 41. 10s., and
alt that the negro would ask as a condition for his trans-
mission was that he should have the protection of the
British flag, and be guaranteed being returned to his
native land after- his period of service was completed.
Whenever any of his ships had entered an African river
not less than twenty or thirty canoes, each containing
twenty or thirty negroes, put off, anxious to work for
one dollar a month, for periods extending from one
month, or monsoon, as they called it, to 36 monsoons.
This information he derived from men who had been in
Africa for periods extending from three to 22 years, all
of whom declared that the amount of free labour to be
obtained in Africa was unlimited; and hence he had
come to the conclusion that if the Government would
do away with the existing foolish preventive service
on that coast, and allow labour to be exported as free
as possible to the West, India islands, free labour could
be afforded at one-twentieth of the expense incurred by
the Brazils for slave labour, Hence, if they wished to
exterminate slavery they ought to encourage the ex-
portation of free labour to the West Indies, where a
negro could be delivered for 4/. 10s. while it would cost
the Brazils 100/.—(Hear.) But the merchants of this
country had not been supported in the way they ought
to have been. He was sure the House would bear with
him while he mentioned one instance to prove that as•
sertion. In 1839 or 1840 the Government had thought
fit to send a squadron to the coast of Africa under the
command of Captain Tucker, a man highly respected,
against whose private character nothing could be raised.
Captain Tucker went out with certain instructions, to the
effect that he might negotiate with the native chiefs
and kings, with a view to prevent any internal slave trade
being carried on within their respective territories. On the
full faith of these instructions Capt. Tucker entered the
River Bonny, and made a treaty with the king for the
abolition of the slave trade in his dominions. That
treaty was witnessed by seventeen masters of British
merchant ships trading there for palm oil, and it was
ratified, so far as ratification could there take place.
The King acceded to the terms of that treaty, and was
to receive 10,000 dollars per annum for three years, on
condition of his foregoing the profits he had derived
from the slave trade. For this amount he drew a bill
upon the Treasury, which one of his (Mr. Jackson's)
agents took in payment for his cargo of goods, but when
it was presented to the Treasury payment was refused.
In two other cases the same thing had been done, and
thus tho Government had dishonoured the act of their
own officer and agent, who had carried out the instruc-
tions with which he had been charged.—(Hear, hear.)
his partner and himself had, however, acted with more
philanthropy than the Government, and had thought
it better that they should suffer than that the cha-
racter of the British nation should incur a stain,
and if necessary he could present to the House the
very bills drawn in consequence of the treaty to which
he had referred—bills which had been noted for dis-
honour, and which were not yet paid.—(Hear, hear.)
With such a proceeding as this how was it possible
to expect that the African princes would proceed in
the furtherance of the abolition of the slave trade ?
(Hear, hear.) He would, however, mention, another
instance of a similar description. A gentleman of the
highest character—now filling the office of Mayor of
Liverpool—had had one of his ships seized on the coast
of Africa, under the pretence, because there were on
board a few extra water-casks, that the vessel was en-
gaged in the slave trade. These casks had only been
taken in to add additional comfort to the ship's com-
pany; and yet this gentleman was without redress, and
was suffering not merely pecuniary loss, but under the
reflection of being charged with having promoted the
slave trade. But this Was quite in keeping, for ever
since the Committee which sat in 1140 a dead set had
been made against the merchants of Liverpool. And
what was the fact? Why, when he (Mr. Jackson)
first entered into the African trade, in the year 1826,
the trade in palm oil and other produce was quite
overlooked then, as now, by the British Government.
That trade had increased, and might be still further
increased, if the superabundant population of Africa
was convoyed, as free labourers, for a term specified, to
the West India islands. By this means the negro la-
bourers would acquire information in the cultivation of
the soil, in the culture of cotton, and would return to
their native land with the knowledge thus acqaired ; and
hence, instead of a trade of 1,000,0001. per annum, a
commerce of 10,000,0001. per annum might be created
between this country and the African coast.—(Hear,
hear.) If the House would direct its attention to in-
crease the commerce with the coast of Africa, it would
improve the resources of this country, and at the same
time do away with the cruelties and curse of the slave-
trade. He was sorry to detain the House, hut he felt
strongly on this subject. He knew the country. He
had lost two brothers-in law in Africa. Many friends
had gone there who had never returned, and another
friend had returned who had been up the interior of the
country, nearly 300 miles, at a factory or depository for
goods; his firm was established, and they had, in their
relations with the black population, when based on good
faith and honesty, found the same return.—(Hear, hear.)
theno not
statekn is know
anY men more intelligent,
whichcon-
they were born, or more
dsnie(eiseirroiau did
g
s of obtaining knowledge or becoming acquainted
with trade and traffic, and of approaching civilisation,
than of the African population. Some years ago he re-
membered sending out a vessel with 1,000 barrels of
gunpowder and 10,000 muskets, but the very next
voyage the same ship took out 1,5001. worth of house-
hold furniture. On one river to which he had traded,
the population, male and female, had been found to lire
in a state of nudity. After a time they girded a piece of
cloth round their loins; but now the men were to be seen
wearing jackets and trousers.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
This might be all very amuain."; bat it was a fact which
showed that the efforts made by British merchants had
not been misdirected, but had tended to civilisation; and
he was satisfied, if the present squadron was removed
from the coast—if free trade in labour, without any
foolish restrictions, was established—a death-blow
would be given to the slave-trade and the cruelties worse
and civilisation
than
dthe haodrvraonrcs
eodf
tthheer
emb
yi d dle
better p a st ah ga en,
by the presence
of a fleet of 10,000 ships, with 10,000,000 of men to
man them.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir B. IL INGLIS admired the remarkable speech of
the Hon. Member who had just sat down, a speech
which had been received with the attention it well
deserved; but he could not refrain from asking whether
he had misapprehended the Hon. Member in respect of
one of his many propositions for ridding Africa of its
and at
Membert the same tima providing for the
West India ands. It appeared to him (Sir R. H.
W
Inglis)
nr present
that
s
' anthe Ha
seemed to think that the
panacea for the wrongs of Africa and for the distresses
existing in the West Indies was the removal from the
former to the latter of a certain number of the population
by purchase; in other words, wag not his proposition
really a slave trade for three or a specified number of
years ?—(No, no.) Then he would sit down until the
Hon. Member had an opportunity of setting him right,
if he was in error.
Mr. JACKSON, in explanation, said the Hon.
Member for the University of Oxford had misunderstood
him. He (Mr. Jackson) had stated that, from his ex-
perience, he knew there was an abundance of free labour
to be obtained on the coast of Africa. That, as soon as
his vessels had appeared off the coast, twenty or thirty
canoes, with as many able negroes on board each, came
off to them clamorous for employment, and eager to be
engaged at a dollar per month wages, and to bo fed upon
rice and any refuse on board for any number of months.
Their great desire was, to be under the protection of the
British flag ; and these men bad ever been found to be
faithful, industrious, willing to serve even to the death,
and had never hesitated to come to England when their
services were required in consequence of the crew being
required by her Majesty's ships to make up for deaths,
desertions, and other casualties. All they asked was,
that, after the expiration of their period of service, they
should be brought back to their own country. And he
meant to say that, with the consent of the Government,
he would undertake to plant at the West India Islands,
at a cost of 41. 10s. each, free labourers who should
work for two, three, or four years, at the rate of a dollar
a month, provided they wore promised to be returned
with the produce of their savings back to their own
native coasts.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir H. H. INGLIS was glad he had afforded the
Hun. Member an opportunity of making this explana-
tion. All that he meld say was, that, without denying