The Sun.
London, England, 1848-05-09 00:00:00

SPAIN.

Mr. BANKES wished to know from the Secre-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs how it was
that the extract from the Spanish correspondence in
the Clamor Public°, that was promised by the Noble
Lord, was not among the papers that had been laid
on the table of the House. He also wished to
know whether the statements that had appeared in
in the French papers was derived from the Spanish
Government; and how it happened that the whole of
the correspondence bad appeared in the daily papers
twenty-four hours before it was in the hands of
Members ?

Lord PALMERSTON said, in answer to the first
question of the Honourable Member, he could not
find among his papers the copy of the Clamor
Public° ; he had, however, since obtained an-
other copy which he had no objection
to lay on the table of the House. With
regard to the source from whence the French
newspaper had obtained its information, he had
no direct authority upon the subject, but this was
clear, it was not direct either from her Majesty's
Government or Madrid, but his firm conviction was
that it came from Spain. With respect to the last
question of the Honourable Member, he begged to
state that it was always usual to send contemporaneous
copies to the daily papers of all papers printed for the
House and the use of Members, a practice the utility
of which no one, he believed, would deny, and one
which he trusted would never be discontinued. The
probability was, therefore, that the papers had had
their copies early, and published them some hours be-
fore Hon. Members received them.
HEALTH OF TOWNS.
The Earl of LINCOLN stated that it was
his intention in Committee on the Health
of Towns Bill this evening, to move the
omission of the 4th and sth clauses, and if he suc-
ceeded in that he should propose in the 6th clause
to place the appointment of superintending inspec-
tors in the hands of the Secretary of State.

THE CUSTOMS.
Mr. MACGREGOR wished to ask the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government whether he was dis-
posed to make any arrangement with him for fixing a
day to bring on his motion relating to the Customs.
If not he should be compelled to bring it on when it
was proposed to go into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. EWART said, before the Noble Lord answered
that question, he wished to say a word or two in
reference to it. If he was not mistaken, the Hon.
Gentleman's motion stood in the position of a dropped
notice; and he begged to inform the House that on
Tuesday last, when it stood on the paper, he stood
behind the lion. Member in the lobby when the House
was being counted.—(Hear, and laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he could not give the
Hon. Gentleman a day.
Mr. MACGREGOR begged leave to explain the
apparent inconsistency alluded to by the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman the Member for Newark.
When he came down on Tuesday afternoon about
half-past three o'clock, he found in the lobby about
twelve Members, but no member of the Govern-
ment was present. Soon afterwards the number
was increased a little, but still there was no
member of Government in attendance ; and, although

he endeavoured to beat up Members to make a
House, he saw it was utterly impossible to effect
that object. He, of course, was aware of the
number of Members in the House and the number in
the lobbies; but as it fell very far short of a' House,
he saw no necessity for going into the House when it
was counted.—(Hear, hear.)
HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL.

In answer to a question from Sir R. 11. INGLIS,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL stated that it was in-
tended to make a material alteration in the Public
Health Bill. It was proposed to introduce a clause
to establish a Public Health Commission, consisting
of four members, two of whom should he paid and
two unpaid, one of the paid Commissioners having a
seat in that House.
Lord MORPETH and Mr. BOUVEBIE presented peti-
tions in favour of the Bill.
On the motion for going into Committee on the
Bill,

Mr. SPOONER, rose to resume the adjourned
debate. He said, although the Government had
made various alterations in the Bill, the principle
of it remained the same, and he objected most de-
cidedly to the power which was proposed to be given
to a central board in London to control the affairs of
the different localities affected by the Bill. There
was, also, an unlimited power given to the
Lords of the Treasury to appoint officers and
officials under the Bill, which power he con-
. sidered unwarranted and unconstitutional. He
admitted that some superintending body was ne-
cessary to see that proper sanitary measures were
' adopted in the different localities ; but he pro-
tested against the interference of Government in the
local administration of the different towns such as was
proposed by the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord at the head of the Government would
find so many complicated interests affected
by the Bill that he would be unable to carry it
through the House, and he would suggest the pro-
priety of the Government withdrawing the Bill and
bringing in one which was more in accordance with
the opinions of the House and the country.
In the present state of distress which
prevailed in the country it was most absurd
to give unlimited power to the Government to increase
the expenses of the State. The retail dealers in most
of the large towns were quite unable to pay additional
taxes, and they would object to the Bill which so unne-
cessarily did so. He trusted the Government would,
therefore, bring in a Bill more likely to meet the ap-
probation of the House; but if they endeavoured to
press the present measure through the House,
he for one should issue his protest against it.
The Honourable Gentleman the Member for Falkirk
had an important motion on the paper, which should
receive his hearty support—namely, that they should
proceed through and complete the details of the
Bill before they appointed Commissioners to
carry it out. The Government would do well
by adopting his suggestion. The result of the
principle of centralization sought to be introduced
by the Bill would lead to this :—local boards
would decline to act, assistant commissioners would
only act when they thought proper, and everything
would be left to the London board, who could not be
expected to manage satisfactorily purely local matters.
It was absurd to expect that men of independent
spirit would act when their proceedings were liable to
be quashed by an irresponsible board sitting in London,
Agricultural would be mixed up by the
Bill with town parishes, which could not
tail to involve the management of the
Commissioners in inextricable contusion, because
all kinds of rates were collected for different pur-
poses. He would suggest that the Bill should be re-
ferred to a Committee up stairs, who would examine
witnesses, and point out from their evidence how
a practicable measure might be successfully
framed and carried into operation. his
object for moving the adjournment of
the debate was to enable the Noble Lord to
take time to see whether he could not make
some concessions to the opponents of the Bill.
Some concession he certainly had made, but it was
of a very trifling character, and for the reasons he
had already urged he should vote for the amendment
of the Hon. Member for Stafford, if he determined to
carry it to a division.
Mr. SLANEY said the Honourable Gentle-
man who had just sat down had spoken with a good
deal of fluency upon this subject, but he must
confess that nothing had fallen from him
to show that the measure ought to be defeated.
The time had arrived when it was the duty of the
House, not for their own sakes, but for the sake
of mitigating the sufferings of the great mass
of the people, to establish large and comprehensive
sanitary regulations. Ten years the subject had been
under consideration, and still nothing had been done,
and in that space of time the necessity for
passing such a measure as this had more than
doubled. Ten or fifteen years ago the great
mass of the people consisted of agricultural
labourers, but since then the populations of
towns had increased to such an enormous
extent that the agricultural labourers were
greatly in the minority, and such a measure as
this must of necessity be passed to im•
prove the social condition of the large bands
of men, women, and children, who were
congregated together in the extending manufacturing
districts of the north. Commission after commis-
sion had sat upon this subject and urged upon the
Legislature the necessity of passing such a measure as
this. With what grace then could the House re-
fuse this concession to the working classes ?
He hoped, however, that the Government would
persevere with the measure, and they might de-
pend upon ultimately carrying it through. Nay, they
had the support of the majority of the people out of
doors, and they would terribly lose cast if they
slackened in their exertions to carry the Bill. He
believed that if the opponents of the Bill had read the
rules and resolutions of the different Commissioners, who
had been appointed to investigate the condition of the
working classes throughout the country, and on which
the Bills of the Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) and the
Noble Lord (Lord Morpeth) were founded, they would
no longer continue their unjust and unnecessary oppo-
sition. Ho knew those Commissions to have oonsisted
of the ablest engineers of the country, and felt proud
to have the honour of being a fellow labourer with some
of those personages on one Commission. He then in-
vestigated the condition of sixteen towns, among which
was Birmingham, and ho should solemnly aver that a
worse condition than that of the working classes, among
pigs and stench, could not be imagined. There was
great ignorance of the art of making drains amongst those
to whom the care of their construction was entrusted,
being made six feet high and three feet wide, when
much smaller and much cheaper ones would answer
every purpose. The consequence was, that the poor had
not the benefit of as extensive a system of drainage as
they deserve and were entitled to. Earthenware pipes
wero much cheaper, and carried off filth much better
than brick channels. It was absolutely necessary also
that they should have an abundant supply of water in
the improved districts, and, therefore, the importance of
a measure to enforce all these provisions for the public '
health could not be too greatly appreciated. The only '
course that now lay before them, in their endeavour to
realize the practice of these principles, was to go into
Committee on the Public Health Bill, which had been '
very properly entrusted to the Noble Lord the First
Commissioner of Woods and Forests, who had yielded a
great point, viz., that he would consent to the Bill being
carried into practice by the Government, assisted by
two unpaid Commissioners. The Hon. Member for
Exeter objected to the appointment of any Commis-
sioner, but he was sure that his anxiety for the
health and comfort of the poorer classes would not
allow that circumstance to remain an obstacle with
him. The reports on the state of certain portions of
the towns of Bristol, Bath, Frome, Merthyr, and other
places of the west, were of a nature to rouse the most
apathetic to a sense of the importance of a general
cleansing system. The mortality returns were a true
criterion of the wretched state of the population, and in
the places he had named, it varied from 25 to 3, the
general average throughout the country being 22 per '
cent. In some other places it amounted to as much as
four, five, or even six per cent. After looking at the
state of all those towns, he had come to the conclusion,
that it was absolutely necessary for every class of society
that reforms of this description should be carried out
immediately, and if this were refused, or defeated, or
impeded, the evil results of that line of conduct would
sooner or later become apparent, because it was clearly
the health of the poor that enabled them to render pro-
ductive the property of the rich. In Lancashire alone !
there were 336,000 cases of disease attributable to the
want of measures of this sort, and that number would
speedily bit increased or equalled in other parts of the
kingdom, and there was no knowing in what their neg-
ligence might terminate.

M
difficult
y
r. C.
t.
oPtEi
define
S Ot
the
be
bo
o us enrdvaed ry
ltihnaet
bi
et t
uw.
eaesn et xb ter a
pmrei
nl
ciple and details of a Bill; as that which one lion. Gen-
tleman might consider a principle, another might regard
only as a matter of detail. Hence the frequent reply to
objections against this Bill: " They areonly
detail—let us consider them in Committee." His idea
of the principle of this Bill was this—that so many cities,
towns, and boroughs in the country as the Government
should please to distinguish by an order in council were
to be taken out of the existing law, which vested the
power of making sanitary regulations in a local autho-
rity, and placed under the controul of a Government
Board—that was to say, that the time-honoured insti-
tutions of the country were, like ricketty children, to
be placed in the go-cart of Government centralisa-
tion. That was, in his estimation, the principle of
the Bill, and, being altogether opposed to it, he could
not consent to go into Committee for the purpose of
considering how it might best be carried out. The
Hon. Gentleman proceeded to combat the arguments of
the last and other speakers, that this Bill would materi-
ally improve the social and physical condition of the peo-
ple, by referring to the sanitary system of France and
other continental countries, of which he said this Bill
was an imitation, and showing that under that system
those countries were inferior to England in morality,
longevity, and physical comforts. The proportion of
deaths in l'rance was 1 in 4'); in Prussia, 1 in 38; in
Austria, 1 in 33; in Rusiia, 1 in 38; and in England, 1
in 43. The Hon. Gentleman did not state what returns
he quoted from, but argued that in England, under her
own principle of local self-government, there was less

centralisation
tithan
soughti thoseto choeuensttraiheisisehlicderehythtehissyßstilerwa°,-f
in operation. He also quoted lareely from returns r
specting early marriages, showing a great preponderance,et._
in favour of England, and particularly London, wbal
Let!!
number of illegitimate children was proportions II
for London
He we
fhohlalyvinagcq(l,itiititi
tetdedthtehNs
toebiitey Lfroor h
from
tthee Di^3Leatni
cause of his political connexion, and must do Heat 11,17
justice to say, that he believed there was no
_n_a.
slightest foundation for any such imputation. Re ek's
posed this Bill not for the city of London. but al_
„,
Member of Parliament speaking for the country st ler_get'si
and as such, he must say with regret that the, gros..
misrepresentations had been palmed upon the+ coun' trif)
respecting it. As the sample so was the se
ck• the
found it stated in a report of the sub-committe e wAisui
Health of Towns Association—a body of props u
who were trying to infect the minds of the laden—'
de_
" that since 1838 upwards of 58,000 children 'A yp
stroyecl in London who would not have been destroy'
the C
the rate of mortality was the same as in the dis toa:1130.
Lewisham." If fairness were intended, a place
ti:id
001
only about 600 inhabitants widely separated r rei' Con.
have been chosen as a comparison and place'
ct.lci the
treat with a thickly populated city. This sh so' by
manner in which the public mind had been drisifgrfbat
the advocates of this measure. He would a
t. of
though during the years stated the whole nue Aber
the
children aged 5 years and under who had died I,n. the
city of London was 5,125, the number was state 11,,°00.
publications put forth by these associations to be 5'',1e50
He (Mr. Pearson) should be ashamed to mall less he
charges here in the absence of those parties, ill'l„,befs
had previously made them before a body of the ,rslety-oeitlt
of these associations, when the secretary of the, ben
o
of Towns Association and the secretary of tb bee be
politan Association were both present; and yet '1";
voted
made the charge they stood mute monuments of 'dedef,nd,
impositions, which they had not the courage to'
_ipso
Hence, he had a right to charge against ti,esentrae,
publications and statements which were grossly f this
and only put forth to influence votes in favour ° that
measure. Still, however, he did not pretend to g Istra
there was not room for great sanitary
that admission he made as broadly as he cool
it.—(Hear, hear.) He would mention one Coe 5, to
in a report published by the Statistical Soci 01);;efe
which Colonel Sykes, Dr. Guy, and Mr. Nees° °tidal'
parties. The case had reference to pal 110
locality, to which presently he would give a neen 'flat be
read it with shame and humiliation, to think t
_st to
lived in a country were such scenes were pern, J.tt.o of
take place. These gentlemen referred to the coo litti,.°oll;
improret a!•,etsto
eighteen houses which had been visited copse.gad
Each of these contained a dense population closel) /Pit we.
together to an extent which it was frightful to cont. 'set of
In these abodes the maximum amount of cubic TA of
air was 270 feet, but the average was 176 cubic' er; the
air for respiratory purposes. Why, any teloa in
country was allowed in his cell 1,000 cubic feet coy
for the purposes of his health, and yet these poo rf
0013,
tures, thus huddled together, had an average these
176 feet. The report went on to state that fe or
wretched abodes all ages and sexes were huddle-6 tchefs
ther—fathers and daughters, mothers and sons, ht‘",etes!ct
and sisters, adult strangers male and female, 0°1.) Os'
children—the sick and the dying—to a pressar: foe
even brutes would resist ; and among them itan
possible to observe the ordinary decencies of 'A as'
hence immorality and vice grew with their grovOnd tut
strengthened with their strength. To put an :se or
i
such a system he would willingly join with any and
body of men. But where did all this take pia °°' the
under whose control and government ?
locality was Church-street, St. Giles's, and the out; The
was that of the Woods and Forests.—(Hear, hear'e,nio%
House was aware that an Act had been passed 'Joel
authority to the Woods and Forests to construct or
street through St. Giles's to connect Holborn 'vit.:eel;
ford-street; and for the construction of the new " nclos*
tax was imposed upon all coals imported let° Le,d
This tax, it had been untruly charged, was rnanagLies.
the corporation of London. On the contrary+ t•'',hicil
nagement was placed in the Woods and Forests, 0001.,
department had a fund from that source of 500sy the
with which to make the new street, to pull d0viu,,,b..1.0r the
houses of the locality, and to make arrangemeurolus b
bettor accommodation of the people who w°°, bad bee'
displaced from their habitations. And whgtlled 6'oo,
the result ? Why, the houses had been Ifabade s de;
and the people were driven into the wretcbe- in at, 's (3;
scribed in the report he had quoted' the —rcif 67' )d.
which had thus been increased to the extent o
ds,
cent. So much for the management of the Yir°°
Forests t 6
Lord. MORPETEI intimated across the table Os: or
new street and alterations alluded to had not he': 0001'
red out by the Woods and Forests, but under the.,hicti
missioners of Metropolitan Improvements, of '1)
body the Lord Mayor was a member.—(Hear, hes r'ltbe
Mr. C. PEARSON resumed—He was aware oe
mien
—(A
nion
dtohnehteetroheminsasimone
oaf thefew jollertlit
Mayor had been included in the commission to ertio
an appearance of popularity; but no man could dt'iol
that the Lord Mayor, however respectable, would 'frill'
into measureless insignificance in the presence of Op,
dividual of so high a position as the Noble I,°resto
(Loud laughter.) If, therefore, the Woods and F'?„,';hst
managed affairs so wretchedly so near home, I.oo'
could be calculated upon as the result of their
trolling trolling power and supervision of works in °,,j;
parts of the country under this Bill?—(Hear, "stll°
In
the course of this discussion the subject 0.; sts
visitation of the cholera in this country some 7'' ill
ago had been alluded to. At that time---e3133e,j.319:
1832, be had been appointed chairman over the
parishes, to administer a fund of 10,0001. voted by
Corporation. He entered on this point to show ithite de;
vantage of local government. The city of Le°,l°,:irtilD
termined to act for themselves, despite the 'l.l di°
edict issued by the Privy Council at that time,
head of which was the Marquis of Lansdowaa*.r pre:
citizens of London stood their ground, as had thel P
decessors at the time of the plague. They f°11:2,1 ft.°
their own cost a board of health, which dissente 03,0
the views of Sir Henry Halford and the f. Goveruthe
medical men as to the contagious character of. the
disease. And what had been the consequence ° Ass
course pursued ? In Paris, where the diseessyihjle
treated as contagious, the deaths were as 1 10 4Toroce;
in London, which had taken its own course 401.
dare, the deaths had been in the proportion of 1 alefir
of the population. These were proofs that the Toritisg'
ment of local affairs ought to be left to local auht,, ps
whose exertions ought not to be permitted to m- nee ";
lysed or deadened by the influence or interferedia eo
Government commissioners.—(Hear, hear.) 111,8 he 01„'
think he should do service to the cause whir'his
cerely advocated if he said more than to express ;00fitrle
viction that if this Bill should pass whatever the ",a; 1h;0
might choose to submit to, the city of London n 001'
metropolitan districts would not tolerate such a in
being applied to them.—(Hear, hear.) to 104
opLenortdheAHSHooLseEtYhesaaihdsehleutewaansdvieordyi:nxions es''"
of commencing some measure calculatePdentsoarbeleinliet:ecesillei
vances which weighed so heavi on the -° owe
classes.—(Hear, hear.) Noble Friend
(Lord Morpeth) had said the other night that t"is ; eele"
working man's Bill. His Noble Friend fluied b
uttered a truer thing. The measure was connect at hd
the working man's whole existence. it begarfeuelleaf
home—it affected his capacity to go abroad--s" e ses:43"
his health, and it increased or diminished his °Ld
obtaining a livelihood for his wife his fareq, -
self. This question, formerly unknown to the
was now well understood by them, and its oOct bell.
ment was one of the dearest objects they bsel.,11,011:01
Hence it affected not merely the physical ned;
Ot
dition of the working classes, but also their iirt4,ed,
content or discontent, just as legislative Inet°;eler',A.
sanitary improvement were adopted or 13`' did
Ho did not deny that there were grelet, Pet
culties in the way of legislation on this su''les die
that it required great ingenuity and perseve- for '6l,
devise a measure which should be an antirlotsexist
prodigious and intolerable evils which at preselit, be, °fig;
But the greatness of these difficulties could 0" preie>
ought not to be, any argument for stopping !Ail 'ati°r3hiO
measure at the very threshold of its due consl"-,,re Wrio•
namely, in Committee; and he (Lord Ashley) Ptlis,;;011
Noble Friend opposite (Lord Morpeth), and t°„
vernment, the highest praise for the manner ""fied ee
they had addressed themselves to this questionwelll e,
mode in which they had encountered thoserlifesoithteet,
At the same time, he fairly told them that, in ',llO
the Bill was susceptible of great improveiverecl
whether or not, he (Lord Ashley) ir°l2l„° °PPR-
House to let the Government have t°`';'t ee, "110
tunity of dealing with the Bill in Coo gOl,OO
cause it was a measure which had alreat,"„it it f.os
strong a hold upon the minds of the people, bet, the
essentially necessary to prove to them in 'Jets"' or es'
or was not feasible in respect to the reol°".eets-,0
various abominations to which they were at Preitov
posed. It had been stated that the existing
alto
sufficient to effect all purposes. The law was gib°
remove nuisances provided men had the meall.,:d
10
law; but still they were insufficient or unecl"oe to 1,0
institution of improvements, especially in refere9retor°,, go
due and sufficient supply of water, and the t`i",f)
repeated his hope that the Bill would be all(:),"Asb(6" io
for investigation in Committee. He (1,01.u4 otytit°
should not have ventured to address the liedles%je 00'
subject, had it not been for the observations The
the House the last night of the debate bY 1;05000
Member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond),
tad
of'
that a number of interested persons availing d gone'
t
ibtaoainafotrintakTh.geeeidtatfAaeietnesialoisthnnuhegrei which prevailed in the country' "; cl c;
been actively (eneiLovn
honegroratddlgheeeAi rsdostfho
tcehyair)sr yhaad
movement—asb emeasureen inooft_th.buiee.istiehrfidil
del
pp -0c os
himself a share of as much blame
sionhtibeete, nhdeewaeTsourreatdoyoutcLiclobeefieool
a, CO- she
or
upon the proceeding; but he would leave it /Tad ,Attid;
Member (Mr. Drummond) to show that be be
bey) had exhibited a grain of selfishness in t Istsweol
—(Hear, hear.) And he would ask the 1100:c ceesa 10
whether, in the opposition to the measure, thriregsrive'
something of selfishness, and a low and mean Lb° rr
?( hear.) when
ose°9 felts
Membertreated the subject with so much P deeP
must have forgotten, or never have known the
nn it, toil
ing which existed through the country uPiergus 00,
could not have known that in almost every abuse eO3
local boards had been formed to investiguitaeniiing I:°oo3°'
to make periodical reports which, from begs ass
showed one and the same complaint of tlwat endtitio°
Tuley of the law for the removal of the grew) Petbe es'
ing evils they denounced. There had [gene to
the foot!:
from the city he represented—one preYl lo
t
;
empted from the Bill—the other from give Iv te
LO to t.tiroe.
calling upon their representatives not
local influences, but to make it subservie j, /31
neral good. He (Lord Ashley), therefore, be lilt of/
t.t, liberty to act as he liked, and, acting
otipitteee'epie
should vote for the amendments auto C °
there introduce such as t°