The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-20 00:00:00

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Learned Friend who opened the debate, fixed his seal to
' that measure, and advised his Majesty to assent to it.
That was no violation of the oath, nor was this, and his
Noble ..nd Learned Friend, if it was, must answer to the
charge. What was the difference between the violation
then and now ? The difference' was this—that one vi-
olation had for its end a trifle, and the other a great and
• beneficial object. The one was in 1817, and the other in
1833. In strict right the violation was the same, no
matter what might be the amount, and he would say that
Parliament exercised the right of legislating on the pro-
perty of the Church; and if it had the right on one
occasion, it ought to have the right on another,
Provided always that.due care were taken of vested rights.
Parliament, however, had not been always careful of those
rights, and he could point out one occasion to show that
there was nothing in this spiritual property to entitle it
to be Withdrawn from the Legislature. The right to
tithes he considered as strong as any other species of
av'li'tuh thatrehroperty. Had not the Legislature interfered
species of property, without asking any other
consent than was asked for the present measure ? And he
letPind6l theii Lordships that he stated, more than once,
-4""sion, a case where tithes respecting commodities of
particular growth were regulated by Act of Parliament.
It was found that full tithes prevented the growth of cer-
tam productions, and that it would be necessary either to
take them away entirely, or to restrict them. The par-
ticular
an, a commodities he referred to were madder, hemp,
the--"" "31. In the early part of the reign of William 111.,
tithe valued on flax and hemp was 4s. an acre to all,
and
some time afterwards the tithe on madder was reduced
Pa to sp.
Per acre. He had looked into the preamble of this
rticular Act, because he had heard that Parliament
Were induced to pass the Act for the advantage of the
f"h,,ureito lest none of those commodities should be raised,
.ue tithes were exacted in full. That was a very poor
"gultent, for if these productions were not raised,
If"le others might be. But the Legislature was more
?Ilk than the partisans of the Church, for in the
Preamble of the Bill were set forth the reasons
for
6the reductions. What were they? Motives purely
elar•--The Act says, whereas madder—and not,
erect the Church—(A laugh)—should be grown as an
IZl:Oient necessary—not to feed the parsons—(A laugh)
ailtiout for dyeing and printing calico; and whereas trade
Pr
Manufactures might be reduced if the growth were
thee d
tent, -1 and whereas the growth of it was a saving to
4 j'ner in winter months, no more than so much is to go
1„
"the to the vicar, curate, or lay impropriator. It was
r4feetly clear, if this could be done, that the Legislature
greater
deal with that epecies of property in matters of
4:4" Magnitude. He would not go back raking out old
Lords-11 of this kind, but he did not forget, and their
Co,liPs could not forget, a vote of the Irish House of
at,i,!"3lDils calling the levying of tithes vexatious, and
Thee" vote was followed up by an Act of Parliament.
h
oat instances proved, with respect to the coronation
that they were not deviating from strict principle in
h444ting the present measure. He thought he had
Ili rd it said in the course of the present debate, by a
(414. t Reverend Prelate, that this measure was one both
or elation arid spoliation, and that, not thinking the
eviolation and spoliation sufficient, the Right
sgetterend Prelate was also pleased to add, and of robbery ;
tea,the conduct of those who patronised it that of high-
Went Who say, Stand and deliver.
What was to he
174 t° those who delivered up the Bishops in Ireland in
ten. ;12d 1752? but they only
delivered two, and we do
to the Eight
were every bit as guilty, and he would leave it
to de nught Rev. Prelate, whose mild expressions he quoted
iottrZYr that they were not. But did that House never
and with property? And why say that it could not,
it th""Y compare the clergy to a corporate body ? Was
But
IS: their property might escape being meddled with ?
deal Pposing it to be a corporation, did that House never
if co,With corporations ? What was the India Company
l;aiUechartered corporation ? Yet that House of Par-
_
urs while the Right Rev. Prelate was sitting in it,
55d Passed an Act taking from that corporation 30,0001.,
co Patting that sum into the pockets of a gentleman
nMr Murray. He did not complain of tht Act
; far from it ; yet he opposed it then ; but heave ould
'4 la any thing against it now that it was the law of
the , •
.an.. But it be ever so wrong, it was an illue_
ttttion of his present argument, and could not be denied,
h4nless by saying it was wrong, and that he was sure the
;giglit Rev. Prelate would not do, since be was so zealous
i. 14 Promoting the passing of it. Whatever opposition he
;,erl given that Act—whatever he might have called it,
-e Lid never said, " You have no right to pass it." His
argil
I,'n-ta were, that it should not be passed in that par-
caae. In vain, after ova Right Reverend Prelate's
e.o.°eaey of that Act—in n would it be for him to
trrnPta_re to highwaymen those who aivised the present
i,ore
tweasure of peace and consolation to Ireland—a mea-
ls" ...ratight with the greatest advantages to both Church
fmten6tate—vain would it be for that Right Rev. Prelate to
5%0337tel
_those advisers the charge of robbery, when that
the statutel Pverolipicehrty tem.. red letters, was staring
interfered with by that House, when
sanctioned it, illustrated with black
him in the face.—(Hear,
104 ). He had also heard it said by a Right Rev. Pre-
lant;ho argued on the measure with his usual dignity and
ItY of manner with that suavity that distinguished
of hi" all occasions without its ever weakening the force
ItigCtabrgUroents--witb unfeigned regret did he bear that
ereatur /. Prelate object to the present measure, on two
and 4 L--first, as being a violation of the coronation oath,
rezt' as attacking the corporate rights of the Church.
ttemee44llY did not understand how the clergy could he
w:r!ana_s_aecorporate body, unless it were meant that they
b
it,11,07 rnbly of various corporations, and that it would
e'eddl, "'We without infringing on each corporation to
Were 4 With them. It might be admitted that the clergy
but if jeet 'Proration as contradistinguished from the laity ;
!nd marls ere to be admitted, because they were composed
nnerte,, lll, of all corporations, the
betaegislature could not
444 o.fe with them, that would dmitting the exis-
RNLI, t a r,
Lanstrous anomaly in this country—so ma-
bNiet ease if recognised to all its extent, how could two
ested t,--I,lt together and at the same time—the State
"Atli its supremacy, and the Church clad in its
that :uoitlienahle ? The proposition must be most absurd
Out, tit 414 lead to o such conclusion ; for if borne
te
'b a Y • his • t his
non's in iC tan Archbishop run life against
Year to sae' and make his tevenues amount to 150,0001.
meant be enjoyed by one Archbishop for ever, until the
~.ght be ire& to give it up ; so that 150,0001. a year
-ee 16 enjoy,d for ever by one Bishop, whilst there
t4;tOw-entsProna starving on thirty pounds a year. Such
Rev Plehnet:*_dnetrines he had heard from other Right
Pr°Priet in the course of that debate, who, not denying
With
reVectY to the
assimilating he Irish and English Church,
Ir.:ended that': the number of Bishops, say, when it is
;aud,
i,vetity.two are too many in proportion for
down the
the disparity, but do not do so by
'Y, by r 1.1 the Irish Bishops to 12, but do it in this
ke.heepl 44'4 the number of English Bishops to 40.
'43 ti; 4,",d, laughter.) He begged to remind their Lord-
the a' Nl' ), were living in the year 1833, and not in
e 1533 from which latter year the proportions of
i!nt Rev. Prelate seem to bare been taken, when he
11„,,hro°p,t forward his rule of three, by which he had led a
►Gene,liaron completely astray. With all his respect frr
late 'nUrch Establishment—and not one Right Rev. Pre-
-414174 a more thorough friend to it, and more adverse to
clone,say of its foundation, or diminish its just propor-
'yes „tll4ll he—with all this respect, lie would not shut his
414,43 its abuses. Not one Noble Lord of that House felt
difer:4'l4ly in favour of the Church than he; but the
far ee between their feelings and his was, that he was
t'4'hottlaP.,ting the Church to the feelings of the men over
that '` awn Y Was destined to have sway; and in order that
Mai 1, • 61444 alio g-t continue, he was desirous that improve-
thetter, tuolld take place in it—that its revenues should be
at it tnil Practically, and more usefully distributed—
oved aqa trbecome more beloved, and by becoming fliers
t:t.eb ,v,vered, become more permanent and secure.
v,0"ati.,13/4e felt :fat. he thought of church reforcn—such was
eouti,u,
.Ita necessity. The people, he felt sure,
ti;"4, not only t4;° Watch over the Church—they would
,e establisher. English Church, but to that part of
Iris
Church, ent Which required most reform—to the
tit,44e to exist iwbieb, if it meant to be useful, and to con.
%%,.Peopie b_
rne Ireland, must so reform itself as to make
tid°:reh be 04.. uoneiled to it. In every point of view in
tn_at that ,2_l regard the Bill, he could not but con-
and rejection ,
would be fraught with the ut-
eounteapecieuy`°t the peace and well being of Ireland,
then rY.---(1105° the well-being of the Church in that
and 1., hear, hear.) Upon those grounds,
;Laud to ther:tgeovarions others, he confidently looked for-
t. nothingwool leading of the Bill ; and he felt assured
material th„. 4be done in Committee which would to
ees
Cripple the efficacy of the measure.
ke!Pect t thte e
alteration
h d a but this to observe, that with
ill
ation of any of them, which left the
jeeti entire, and
, Per able
ob,_ subs
as before, he should urge no
litieconsider
oientinn, but proceed candidly and impartially
ti,t4,rte he ear dostrub, provisions, and to discuss them.
shhoaulscltrjaunst advert to one of the
1 ess,"B? relatiee
khirnditted whtefwheic
strange oversight had been
complaint was made against the
'llt_tti:tits,:sniontehree.groTuanhder that it was to contain some paid
votesteractical There
wafsno one who possessed the
knowledge.o the workingoef
1, .
r 5 with him that when they
' not an.ree
stained wuhno.
ula. L....volunteers, as they might aptly be called—
' "lbe
found that those volunteers would begin by

being somewhat irregular in their attendance, and would
end without attending at all ; that in consequence the
business would devotee upon some Secretary, some Regis-
ter, who of necessity must be paid ; that by him the bu-
siness would be very inadequately done, because he was
hut one, and perhaps not so fairly done, bee tuse he was
but one ; and this one paid officer would use the names of
Dignitaries of the Church and Dignitaries of the Law to
sanction his acts, and screen himself from responsibility.
It was, therefore, deemed advantageous that three of the
Members of the Board should be paid officers. That their
Lordships would agree to the second reading he should not
(or a moment permit himself to doubt; and he felt equally
certain that they would do so without the intention
of introducing any modifications in the Cornmitte,,
calculated to impair the general efficacy of the measure,
or to deprive it substantially of the character which at

that moment it bore. The insinuation that they were
capable of adopting such a course he rejected with in-
dignation—he rejected it with an indignation propor-
tioned to the respect which be entertained for their Lord-
ships ; and consistently with that respect, he could not
believe that they would come to a colourable and delusive
vote; such a vote would be fraught with consequences
3 thousand times more dangerous than the manly, straight-
forward, but, at the same time, deplorable and destructive
step of throwing the Bill out on its second reading.
After the Loan CHANCELLOR sat down, there were
loud cries of " Question," in the midst of which a Riaht
Rev. Prelate made some explanation, the purport of which
was not distinctly audible in the gallery.
The Duke of CUMBERLAND—I should apologise
to your Lordships for addressing you at this late hour,
but, after the allusions that have been made to me by the
Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, it is impos-
sible that I should remain quite silent. It is, in such
circumstances as the present, incumbent upon me boldly
and manfully to own the sentiments which I profess.
The Noble and Learned Lord has accused me of having con-
stantly and uniformly opposed what was called the Emanci-
pation Bill. Ti, that charge I am perfectly ready to
plead guilty. I boldly avowed my hostility to that
measure, and I do now, with the most perfect readi-
ness, acknowledge that I did so ; but from the moment
when that Bill passed into a law I bowed to it, sad from
that hour to the present I have never spoken of it dis-
respectfully. Now, I will say, that the Noble and
Learned Lord, knowing the state of parties, had no right
to make such an accusation against me; and I now say
that, though differing from my Noble and Learned Friend
upon that question, the moment I found that for political
purposes we could unite with honour, I willingly shook
hands, and without hesitation obliterated all former diffe-
rences from my recollection. I am sorry, on the present
occasion, that we should appear to be of different senti-
ments, but I know the generosity of his character, and I
feel that I do not reckon upon it too far when I antici-
pate that he will not disapprove of the course which I am
taking. As to the Bill now under the consideration of
your Lordships, I will not enter upon a discussion of its
principle or its details. It would ill become me to sup-
pose that I could add any thing to that which has been
already so ably done by men of distinguished talents in
this House—it has already been so fully explained and
expounded, that I feel I should be wanting in respect to
your Lordships if at this late hour I should think of
occupying any more of your time than was barely neces-
sary for saying that I disapprove of the Bill—that I
object to it as a Bill of spoliation. The Noble and
Learned Lord who spoke last had spoken of those as
bigotte I who had adverted to the coronation oath in con-
nection with the present measure. I plead guilty to
looking upon the coronation oath as an obstacle to the pre-
sent measure. I confess I do not see how we are to get over
that difficulty. I am aware that there are some differences
of opinion as to the interpretation to be put upon the co-
ronation oath, and that many Noble Lords and Right
Rev. Prelates have pronounced opposite opinions upon
this subject—some maintaining that there is a difference
between an executive oath and one which is merely negaa
tive. My view of an oath is, that it is entirely a matter
between man and his God. I will, with your Lordships'
permission, read the oath :—" The Archbishop—Will you
solemnly promise and swear to govern the people of this
kingdom of England, and the dominions thereunto be-
longing, according to the statutes in Parliament agreed
on, and the laws and customs of the same? The King--
I solemnly promise to do so. The Archbishop—Will you,
to the utmost of your power, cause law and justice to be
executed in mercy in all your judgments? The King—l
will. Archbishop—Will you, to the utmost of your power,
maintain the laws of God, the true profession of the Gospel
and the Protestant reformed religion established by the
laws ? And will you preserve to the Bishops and the clergy
of this realm, and to the churches committed to their
charge, all such rights and privileges as by law do or shall
appertain unto them or any of them ? King—All this
I promise to do." That was the coronation oath ;
and if ever there was an oath binding upon earth, it was
that solemn obligation. Nothing could be more explicit
and positive than was that oath ; at the same time that I
do not say it is binding in the same manner upon
different men—its meaning depends altogether upon the
sense given to it by the person taking the oath; it is to
be taken according to what he thinks it to mean ; but
for my part I can only take it one way. The King
cannot do wrong—he acts by advice ; and those who
give him advice are alone the responsible parties. His
Majesty will consider in what way he has taken the oatb.
I beg to state, however, that I have never had any
conversation with his Majesty on the subject; and I
solemnly declare, that I do not know in what light he
views it ; but had I taken such an oath, no consideration
under heaven could induce me to break it. I have
been accused of having opposed the Bill of 1807; I did
no such thing, though I certainly supported the Admin.
stration that was formed in the latter part of that year,
which continued in power, more or less, till the year 1827,
and under the guidance of which this country attained to
an unexampled pitch of greatness. I am opposed .to the
principle of this measure—l will vote against the second
reading; but wet I to do otherwise, I should by no
means accede to t a: doctrine of the Noble and Learned
Lord on the Wou!sack, that in consenting to the second
reading, I at all precluded myself from endeavouring
to destroy in the Committee every part of the measure
that appeared to me objectionable; and I wish it to be
distinctly understood, that between the Noble Duke and
myself there is not a shadow of difference. I will attend
here every night during the Committee, and I hope that
tilose who concur with me as to the mischievous tendency
of the Bill will also be present, and give that which they
believe to he in accordance with truth and justice the
benefit of their support.—(Hear, hear.) When I recol-
lect the occasion which called over the family of which I
am but an humble member to this country, and when I
remember the principles which placed that family upon
the throne of these realms—l cannot but remember they
were called over to maintain the Protestant interest; and,
therefore, I never can bring myself to consent to the an-
nihilation of the Protestant religion in Ireland. A dis-
pute about words almost always appears frivolous, but I
will say that there is more importance in the mistake which
has been committed in the designation of that branch of
the United Church of England and Ireland which is esta-
blished in the latter division of the United Kingdom; it is
but one United Church, and when one part of it falls,God
only knows what may become of the remainder.--(Hear,
hear.) I have thought it right, my Lords, to say thus
much, for I was resolved that the world should know my
sentiments upon this important occasion ; and though I
may be exposed to abuse for this frank declaration of my
sentiments, I shall still preserve the consciousness of having
performed an important duty. I will abide by the duty
which I owe to my Sovereign and my country, and in the
performance of that duty I will stand or fall.—(Cheers.)
The Duke of SUSSEX—I should certainly not have
addressed yonr Lordships upon this occasion., had I not
been, in some degree, called upon to do so by what has
fallen from my Illustrious Relative on the other side of
the House. Differing, as I do, from my Illustrious Rela-
tive upon most constitutional arid political doctrines, I
have felt myself, in an especial degree, called upon to come
forward for the purpose of showing that my opinions are,
as I conscientiously believe them to be, in perfect accord-
ance with the principles which placed our Family upon the
Throne. As a Member of your Lordships' House, and as
a Member of the Royal Family, I thus felt called upon to
come forward. To support the Protestant interest is to
show the most perfect toleration to all sects, for the essence
of Protestantism is the right of private judgment, and
complete freedom of conscience. Amongst the excel-
lencies of the Church of England is the comprehensive-
ness of its principles, its capacity for the admission of
so many shades and varieties of opinion—it admits a
greater number of sects than any other, and therefore
toleration is its prominent characteristic.—(Hear, hear.)
I confess I cannot agree with my Illustrious Relative
either as to his doctrines regarding the obligation of
an oath, or as to the interpretation of the coronation
oath. I do so the more decidedly, when I recollect that
in reading the oath he slurred over one word that" shall"
be agreed to by Parliament—nothing can be more evident
than that the oath was prepared with a view to future
alterations. With that proviso in the oath, and the other
party interested relieving me from the stringency of the
obligation, I should not hesitate to consent to this measure,
even though I had taken such an oath. It is likewise
perfectly clear that the oath was so drawn up for the
purpose of preventing the Sovereign from dispensing with
the laws without the consent and agreement of the other

branches of the legislature. I consider that, both as a
:Ilan and a Christian, I should he entitled, had I to take
such an oath, to give my con,eiit to this measure. After
what has been said on the other side by my Illustrious
Relative, I felt bound to say thus much, and briefly to
state the motives which prompt me to support this Bill,
which may be summed up in these woads—l support it
because I think it eminently calculated to promote the
tranquillity and future prosperity of the country.—( Hear.)
Lord WYNFORD contended, that whether they did
or did not agree to the second reading, it was perfectly
open to them to reject or modify any of the clauses in
Committee : and if such alterations as Noble Lords wished
were not adopted in Committee, the dissentient Lords
might, if they proved sufficiently numerous, throw out
the Bill at any subsequent stage, and in voting for such
rejection, Noble Lords would not be acting inconsistently
with any suppoat they might give the second reading—
that was the uniform practice of Parliament. The with-
drawing of the clause mentioned by a Most Reverend
Prelate made, in fact, no difference in the principle of the
Bill, which sought to relieve the land at. the ex-
pense of the Church—justice and policy required
that the Church and the land should be left as
hey were.—(Hear, hear.) eks to the proposed tax, his
Lordship contended that it II 113 a more iniquitous and
inquisitorial tax than an income tax, and that it was to be
collected by an uncontrolled power. Lie did not consider
the reduction of ten Bishops as a mere matter of econo-
my; and it ought never to be forgotten, that part of the
property of Bishops was neither given by the Crown nor
the State, but by bequest of pious individuals; and Par-
liament could not take away what Parliament did not
give. He called upon the Nolde Lord on the woolsack to
produce a single instance of a Bishop whose see had been
abolished, and his property taken from him. The
bishopric of Westminster had, indeed, been abolished, but
the Bishop was allowed to assign over his property.
Unions of bishoprics were not uncommon, even in this
country—Bath and Wells, Lichfield and Coventry, for
instance; but when'they were joined, the property be-
longing to them was joined also. The Noble and Learned
Lord had referred to the case of the East India Company,
which, last year, had been compelled by Parliament to
pay 30,0001. to an individual ; but the cases were
not parallel ; and such a precedent could not justify
the mode in which it was proposed to deal with
ecclesiastical corporations. ''The manner in which Par-
liament had dealt with tithes upon madder and upon
barren lands could not fairly be construed into an
attack on the Church ; although the Noble and Learned
Lord, in the distress of his argument, had so contended.
On the subject of the coronation oath, and the effect of it,
he entirely concurred with the Illustrious Duke below
him (Cumberland), and in order to show that he was
right in his view of the subject, he quoted a passage from
one of the letters of Lord Kenyon, addressed to George
the Third, when that Sovereign entertaned doubts upon
the subject. Any man who read the oath attentively,
would see that it applied equally to the executive and
legislative authority of the King. It was divided into
three branches; the two first of which respected the '
executive, and the last only the legislative authority of the
Crown; and the latter branch seemed especially to have
been inserted, as it were, to apply to and meet such a
question as the present. A Noble Marquis, with great
ingenuity, had argued that there must necessarily be
some power on earth to release the King from this oath.
He (Lord Wynford) was well satisfied that no authority on
earth could or ought to release the King from the obliga-
tion. It was a matter solely between the conscience of
the Sovereign and his God ; and that, in this instance,
the stringent nature of it should be felt was most proper,
when—as an Illustrious Duke had said—the present
family was called to the throne expressly for the purpose of
maintaining the Protestant religion in these realms. He
(Lord Wynford) entertained a great respect for the Roman
Catholics; but one greatobjection he felt to their religion was,
that it admitted a human power to release a sacred obli-
gation. The Noble and Learned Lord then touched upon
the coronation oaths, taken by the Sovereigns of this
country from the time of Edward 111. downwards to the
Revolution, quoting the opinion of Mr. (afterwards Lord)
Somers, who wished that a degree of liberty should be
left to the King, but whose opinion was over-ruled. He
concluded by observing, that he did not mean to set him-
self up in opposition to the Noble and Learned Lord on
the Woolsack, who was in the fuel vigour of his life and
faculties, while he (Lord Wynford) was only a poor old
worn-out person, who, entertaining strong and honest
opinions, thought it right to express them. His deter-
mination was to vote against the second reading of the
Bill; but if it were carried, he should nevertheless attend
the Committee, and resist the progress of the measure in
its various stages.

Earl GREY replied—Although every thing that could
be said in defence of the Bill bad already been so well
advanced, and although the objections to it had been so
fully answered, he could not refrain from making a few
closing observations on a questioh of Po much importance.
When such a character had been given of the measure
—when insinuations had not been spared imputing
mctives and designs to its supporters in office farthest
from their thoughts because most inconsistent with
their duty ; it was impossible to forbear soliciting
the patient attention of their Lordships while he offered
an answer. First, be was anxious to set himself right
with the Noble Duke opposite (Wellington), who had
charged him with attacking the polity of the late Govern-
ment with more than usual asperity. He (Earl Grey)
hoped he was not peculiarly distinguished for asperity,
either of manner or language—(Cheers)—and on this
occasion he had especially endeavoured to abstain front
everything which could have the appearance of a•perity
in himself, or produce irritation in others.-2(Hear,)
When lie spoke of the delay in granting the Catholic
claims as the cause of the agitation, he wished to do justice
to the Noble Duke opposite. He did not mean to charge
the Noble Duke with that delay, or with the consequences
of it, but to impute them to the long series of years during
which these evils had accumulated, till they had risen
to such a height that it was difficult to deal with then],
and in dealing with them there was no choice, but to pro.
pose an effective remedy, or still to suffer from the evils.--
(Hear.) In like manner the evils with which he had
now to deal had been suffered to accumulate, and it had
now become their imperative duty to remove them.—
(Hear, hear.) It had been reproached to them that these
evils had been of their own creation ; and a Noble Earl
had said, that if the power of the Government had been
proper employed, they might hare been kept in
check. The same reproach had been made on the
former occasion to the Noble Duke, and he had him-
self sometimes employed that observation—he who
was the opposer of all changes in law ; but even
he had been at la.t obliged to say that things had come
to that state, that the Government could no longer go on
with them as they were, and had only a choice between
civil war and the measure he proposed. He (Earl Grey)
had vindicated the Noble Duke from the attacks then
made on him, and had contended that he was acting under
a necessity which the delay of preceding administrations
had caused. When that reproach of not having used the
powers of Government was made to the Noble Duke, he
had answered that it was difficult to deal with a resistance
which was within the limits of the law. As that was the
case with the Noble Duke, whose vigour bad been so
frequently applauded, and as the circumstances were
precisely the same now, it might have been expected that
the Noble Duke would have made allowance for those
who were placed in a situation where they suffered from
the same difficulties that he had formerly felt. The present
Government had done all that they could by the powers
of the law to subdue the spirit of insubordination. A
Noble Duke had stated the evils of such a spirit in the
most impressive manner, and he (Earl Grey) had stated
them at the beginning of the Session, and on the ground
of their existence had proposed a measure which it wrung
his heart to introduce; for it was a measure of extreme
severity, of such severity that he most sincerely hoped the
necessity for renewing it might never recur. In justice to
the Noble Marquis at the head of the Government in Ire-
land, he was bound to say that that Noble Marquis bad
done all he could to curb the spirit of insubordination, and
thus prevent the necessity of having recourse to such a
measure. Had that Noble Marquis there met with the
support he bad a right to expect—( Hear)—and especially
had those who were continually attacking the Government
for not using severe measures refrained from employing, as
they constantly did, the most inflammatoay language, that
Noble Marquis might have succeeded with the powers of
the ordinary laws.—(Hear.) They had failed; and in
consequence of their failure it bad become absolutely ne-
cessary to introduce the measure which had alternately
been the subject of so much blame and so much encomium.
The Noble Earl who spoke last night with his usual ability,
but with his usual bitterness, had asked whether he (Earl
Grey) was satisfied with the results of the present consti-
tution of the House of Commons? His answer was, that
it had fully vindicated the propriety of the measure he bad
had the happiness to carry into effect. It had been said that
thistHhoaut
swieta of swn cot:tinm
tsoobocenos. completely
a denaecratic, entirely a radical
pleYteelyt toldtslauebysewrevireentto otherththeewilio
night
that
Ministry, that it did every thing they wished. That it
was so aubservient be utterly denied.—(Hear.) The Mem-
bers showed an anxious and constitutional love of the
rights of the people, as indeed they were bound to do—
but at the same time they were ready to support the
Government in maintaining the authority of the laws,
when they saw there was a necessity for it.—( Hear.) He

wished to ask how that Bill had passed the House of
Gammons? On the fir:t reading the Ayes were 466
the Noes 69—and this majority of five to one was in that
radical House of Commons—(Hear, hear)—and it was
that democratic House of Commons that had by such a
majority conferred upon Ministers powers such as it had
been said no House of Commons had ever before intrusted
to any Minister. In the same manner the present Bill
had passed the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) A
Noble Earl at the table had said that he would vote for
this Bill if he (Earl Grey) would promise not to carry
these reforms further, and if he would resist them as he
had resisted annual parliaments, universal suffrage, and
vote by ballot. On that he wished to ask their Lord-
ships, whether reform had or not been successful in this
respect, and whether they had ever heard so little on these
subjects as within the last twelve months.—.(Hear, hear.)
Let the House look to the state in which the country was
when the present Administration came into office. There
were Trades' Unions—Political Unions—and burnings et
sticks, that extended all over the country, and might be
seen from the metropolis itself.—(Hear.) What was
now their state ? Of Trades' Unions they heard
nothing—(Cheers)—of Political Unions there were but
few—(Hear, hear)—and the burnings had ceased. It was
true they had been tol I, that in a meeting of a political
union the present Administration had been spoken of with
immingled hatred and contempt; but did not that show
most conclusively that they had not sacrificed to the ap-
plause of those persons their own opinions or the institu-
tions of the country ?—(Clieers.) When, therefore, he
was cautioned against further concessions, on the g ound
that they always produced new demands, he had a right
to contradict the assertion, and to say that, from past ex-
perience, wise concessions had always been successful in
stopping imprudent and improper demands,—(Hear, hear.)
The same caution had been given with respect to the
Roman Catholic Relief Bill, and he had then answered,
that we should make those concessions that reason and
particular existing circumstances is quired. The delay of
the Roman Catholic concessions had caused the people to
know the power of combinations ; and it was true that
whe❑ that question was carried, they looked out for some
other subject of complaint, which they but too readily
found, and a state of things was created in Ireland which
had necessarily required a measure of severity to repress
them.—(Hear, hear.) The fact was that the Catholic
question had been so long delayed, that its concession was
unavoidably accompanied by the evil consequences
of the delay.—(Hear, hear.) He disclaimed taking up
this reform, or the others which it might be the duty of
this Government, if it continu. d, to introduce under the
pressure of necessity—(Hear)—and with regard to the
question of Catholic emancipation, he must remark, that
he had always said that it alone would work no miracles,
nor could remove all the evils of Ireland.—(Hear.) He
desired to confirm the correction of that error which a
Noble Lord had fallen into, that this measure was intended
as a balance to the measure of severity. His Noble and
Learned Friend on the Woolsack had answered that mis-
take most ably and effectively. It was not that this
measure was a balance to the other, but that the authority
of the law having been asserted, they would not have
been performing their duty if they bad not taken advan-
tage of that interval to do that which would render the
re-assertion of the dignity of the law, by measures of
severity, unnecessary.—•(Cheers.) He had no personal
views to answer in proposing this measure. If the Go.
verntnent were actuated by those base and sordid motives
of which they had often been unjustly accused, they
would not have introduced this measure, which, if carried,
must deprive diem of a considerable degree of patronage
—(Hear, hear)—for it was not likely that the Go-
vernment would have the nomination of a new Bishop for
a considerable length of time. Was not this a measure
which the safety of the country demanded—and ought it
not to be adopted, with the view to effecting the promo-
tion of the best interests of the country ? He thought that
both these questions ought to be answered in the affir-
mative. The question of expediency had been argued, and
with the explanation of the Right Rev. Prelate, he adopted
the expediency, as one on which he recommended this
measure. He took the arguments of Paley, as explained
by the Right Rev. Prelate. To the Noble Duke, and the
Noble Lord who bad stood so high on the matter of prin-
ciple, he should beg to direct this question—whether they
were quite sure, after all, that they themselves were not
acting on the ground of expediency? The point to be
attained was the security of the Protestant Church—the
United Church of England and Ireland. •It was their
duty to support that united Church—they proposed this
measure because they believed it would have that effect,
and the Noble Duke and the Noble Lord opposed the
measure because they thought it dangerous to the Church
to admit. the principle of change.—(Hear, bear.) Both
parties then acted on grounds of expediency—the real
difference between them was the mode in which the
object that they had in common could be most surely
attained.—(Cries of "Hear, hear, hear.") It was said
that the churches of England and Ireland were one. It
way true they were so, but did it follow that a defect in
one of the branches was not to be remedied because the
same defect did not exist in the other. Certainly if that
principle was to be adopted now, it would be for the first
time, for hitherto it had not been acted on. A Tithe
Composition Bill had been passed under the preceding
Administration. That Bill was applicable only to Ireland,
and he believed that if it had been carried far enough,
things would not have come to this extremity in Ireland.
—(Hear, hear.) He should now say a word on the evils
of the church cess. All but the Right Rev. Prelate who
spoke last night bad admitted that it was an evil. Of
that speech of four hours, three-fourths were occupied with
topics that had nothing to do with the matter.—(No, no !
Hear, hear.) He was of that opinion, and must remain
so.—(Hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate had declared that
he had never heard a complaint of church cess.
The Bishop of EXETER said something which was
not distinctly audible in the gallery.
Earl GREY was happy to find now that the Right
Rev. Prelate did think it a great grievance, and that it was
necessary to be remedied.

The Bishop of EXETER had not said that he thought
it a great grievance, but that it excited discontent, and
was necessary to he remedied.—(A laugh.)
Earl GREY—WeII, then, he thought not that it was a
great grievance, but that it excited discontent, and was
necessary to be remedied.—(Heir, hear.) They had
heard quoted the opinions formerly professed by those in
the House of Commons who were now Ministers, and
said that they had done nothing to act up to those opinions
not even in the matter of church cess ; and a Right Hon.
Gentleman, as soon as he got into office, like a child with a
new toy, forgot all his former wishes. Why, his Right
Hon. Friend had no sooner been appointed Secretary for
Ireland, than he brought in a Bill relative to church cess.
The Noble Lord here went into a long detail of the many
measures which had been passed, and were now in pro-
gress, for the amelioration of the sister country, and then
proceeded to rebut, from irrefragable documents, the as.
sertion of the Right Reverend the Bishop of Exeter, that
church livings had never be' n revalued in Ireland. The
Noble Premier then said that the Noble and Learned Lord
who preceded him alluded to the honoured name of Kenyon
as an instance of a man who prudently turned his attention
to one subject and axcelled in it, in preference to dabbling
in many and eosaprehendi ng none. —( Hear.) limit certainly
was a good example well worthy of imitation even by
some Noble Lords themselves.—(Laughter.) The Noble
and Learned Lord (Wynford), it was well known, ap-
plied himself most rigorously and assiduously to every sub-
ject that happened to present itself to the notice of their
Lordships. Whether he understood them all or not—
whether he understood any portion of them or not—he
would, of course, in common courtesy leave to the House
to decide.--(Hear, hear.) But if the Noble and Learned
Lord spoke every day, and ten times every day, he would
never convince him (Earl Grey) of the impropriety or
the injustice of reducing the number of bishoprics. As
to the strange, the uncalled for observations of the Right
Rev. Prelate (Bishop of Exeter) on the Catholic body of
the country, he could only say that if they did not excite
his surprise, they most assuredly did his regret. Nothing
could, in his view, be more reprehensible than an attempt,
come from what quarter it might, to re-open old, and as
he (Earl Grey) hoped, fast-fading animosities. But to
what could those observations tend, but to open wounds
which all good men desired to see healed ?—(Cheers.)
For what purpose were they mode—in what spirit could
they be begotten ? Did the Right Rev. Prelate wish
again to lay open the sources of so many crimes—the
cause of so much suffering, as well to individuals
as to the nation—did he wish again to see society dis-
turbed by religious bickering, and its peace once more at the
control of party passion ?—(Cheers.) This Bill, he as-
serted, had nothing whatever to do with the Catholics,
and why were such inflammatory topics ever introduced
into the discussion on it ? It was no concession to the
Catholics. He boldly averred it. It was a concession to
the Church itself; in order that, in its present state of
danger, it might have some chance of braving the storm.
_...(Cheers.) It was possible (would he could disbelieve
it !)—it was unhappily possible, to find some clergymen,
even in the Church of England, whose sole study, and sole
care--regardless, perhaps, of higher calls, and nobler
duties—was to be found in pamphleteering—(Great cheer.
ing)—or in preparing exciting speeches to trouble men's
minds, and shake society to its centre.—(Cheers.) Sorry
should he be to take such a man—if, indeed, there were
one---as a sample of the clergy of England ; to think that
men of hie own creed should deny an indulgence to others

which they claimed for themselve3.—(Cheer,.) If
however, were one, no doubt others would ru,ll to lb,
encounter. If a pamphlet appeared, attacking the Catlio•
lie body, there would, doubtless., soon be a rejoinder from
the pen of Dr. Doyle. He should leave the intellectual
combatants to their own encounter—
Arcades ambo:
Et cantare pares, et respondere parati.—(Loud cheers.)

In whatever way the controversy might be conducted, be
should be no party to it, but leave it to others who had
more zest for such ignoble warfare..—(Hear, hear.) The
Bill was before their Lordships, and it was for them to
decide whether it was to he read a second time or not. Ve
did hope, however; that if they concurred in the principle,
there would not hereafter he found lurking any design of
affecting such change as won7d affect its power or effiei-
ency. —(lleat-. hear.) It might he possible to make such
alterations in it as would defeat the object its framers had
in view, and cause the other House to reject it—thus
producing all those dangers which so many feared. But
if this were the design—if there was really any intention
of so altering it in Committee, be Woeld, for his own part,
greatly. prefer its rejection on the second reading. He
knew there Were difficulties surrounding the question;
hut he felt there would even be less in rejecting the
Bill, than in so impairing if hereafter that its own friends
would blush to acknowledge it.--.(Hear, hear.) He had
been reproached by some for going too far, and by others
fir not going far enough. Others had said he bad con-
ciliated those on whore faith it were folly to rely: But
he denied it. If he had conciliated at all, it was with fn
such view, and with no such parties ; but merely from a
sense of duty, to prevent those dangers which would be
consequent on the rejection of a measure which the Com-
mons approved, and the people had at heart.--(Cheers.)
Government had been mach reproached for abandoning
the 147th clause ; but be believed they had been correct
in so doing, for they did not depart from one principle of
the Bill. If he had done this in the hope of conciliation,
he should only have been miserably deceiving himself ; for
lie doubted not he should soon have found out, that in this,
as in other instances, any such attempt would have only
served to excite more direct and bitter attacks against the
Government of which he was a Member. For on such
purpose—for no such futile and silly purpose--.had he altered
it ; but merely from a sense of duty so to home it as to pre-
vent the possibility of those evils which he and others were
afraid would attend its rejection.---(Hear, heir.) He, at
least, had done every thing to prevent convulsion. He
knew his own situation too well to suppose he should
escape, if any arose.—(Hear, hear.) But their Lordships,
he must honestly tell them, could expect nothing else but
convulsion, if they refused reasonable and necessary reform.
—(Cheers.) This he WAS sure of, that danger would be
felt and anticipated by every body, if that House should
place itself in a certain position, with a view of controlling.
—(" No, no," from some Noble Lord.) He really thought
it would be more proper not to interrupt, but to answer
him. If their Lordships, by acting on false notions of
honour and right, should attempt to control, or, in other
words, should attempt to govern, independent of public
opinion, anti of the House of Commons, convulsion must
inevitably ensue. Tranquillity was now restored in the
kingdom—trade and everything were going on well ; and
if their Lordships would only lend themselves to the cor-
rection of acknowledged abuses, they would strengthen
their own position in society—they would bless and be
blessed by that society.—(Cheers.) He should calmly
await the decision of that House, in the earnest hope that
their Lordshipi would wisely consider their own honour,
and the peace, interests, and happiness of their common
country.—(Loud cheers.)
After a few words from the Bishop of EXETER, and
Lords MANSFIELD and HARROWBY, their Lordships
d.vided. For the second reading—
Coatents present
Proxies 53
157
Non-content present 6B
Proxies ...

- 98
Majority for the second reading - 59

The Bill was ordered to be committed on Monday, and
their Lordships adjourned at half past four this morning.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JULY 19.
The SPEAKER resumed the Chair at five o'clock.
MISCELLANEOUS.

Mr. FRYER presented a petition from the Political
Unionists of Kilmarnock in favour of the vote by ballot,
universal suffi'bge, and annual Parliaments.—Laid upon
the table.

Mr. TOWNLEY presented a petition from the Dis-
senters of Wia)each, praying for the establishment of re-
gistries of births and marriages in dissenting places of
worship.—Laid upon the table.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON presented a petition from per-
sons belonging to the Scotch Kirk at Kilpatrick, praying
to be allowed a voice in the election of their pastors.—Laid
upon the table.
Mr. FITZSIMON presented a petition from the county
of Dublin against the house and window tax.
In rep!y to a question from Mr. FITZSIMON,

Lord DUNCANNON expressed a hope that the Irish
Grand Jury Bill would be allowed to pass in its present
shape during the present session.
COMMUTATION OF TAXES.

Mr. ROBINSON gave notice that he should early in
the next Session submit to the House a motion for a com-
mutation of taxes, so as to relieve the industrious classes
of the community by a more equitable distribution of the
burdens of the country.