The Sun.
London, England, 1833-06-08 00:00:00

ever—(Hear, hear, bear)—which would not be borne
for a day, either in England or Scotland.
Mr. SHAW repelled the charge of oppression brought
against the clergy of Ireland. The fact was, that there
was an average of three years' income due to the clergy
of Ireland, as would appear by the returns, when
they were laid upon the table of the House.
In tens of thousands of instances, the clergy of Ire-
land had not claimed any thing like their due, and
he defied any one to produce a single instance of their
claiming more. It was monstrous to abuse the clergy for
taking legal means for recovering their rights. Would
not gentlemen in the same way recover rents forcibly
withheld from them ?
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN—No, no.
Mr. SHAW—The Hon. Member for Meath said "No,
❑o," but he was more maligned than the clergy, if he was
not ten times more strict with his tenants than the clergy,
for it was said that he drove them to the last extremity,
hardly leaving them enough to live upon. Was it well for
the Hon. Member to act in this manner, and then accuse
the clergy of tyranny because, being in a state of starva-
tion, they took legal means to recover legal rights? The
Hon. Member below him might, to gain temporary
popularity in Ireland, abuse the clergy of that country.
Mr. FINN—I deny the imputation.
Mr. SHAW explained, and slid that if the Hon
Member did not act from a desire to gain popularity
among the ignorant of the Irish people, the course he
constantly took happened some how or other to have a
tendency that way.—(Cheers.) Political feeling apart,
he was sure Honourable Blembers would be willing'
to admit that there was not a more oppressed and suf-
fering body of men than the clergy of Ireland.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh.") Hon. Members might call " Oh,
oh !" but would they go three years without taking means
to recover their rents ?—( Hear, bear, bear.) A collision
had been mentioned as having taken place between the
military and the people in the south of Ireland ; and
an Honourable Member said that one of the people
had been shot by the military.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
be believed the man had been shot by one of the people
who had assembled, there could be no doubt, to resist the
enforcement of a legal right; and if the Government did
not enforce legal rights, there must at once be an
end of all property and all rights.—(Hear, hear.)
The forbearance of the Irish clergy had induced on the part
of Government a carelessness about their rights.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR thought the Hon. Member for
Dublin had dealt very severely with the Hun. Member
for Meath. As to the assertion of the• Hon. Member
of the great arrears due to the Irish clergy, he would
state that in some dioceses they had actually been offered
15s. in the pound, which they refused to receive, alleging
that if thee did, they should be compromising their sue.
cessors. The Hon. Member seemed to doubt whether the
person who had been shot in the southern part of Le-
land, bad been shot by the police or the people. Now he
would take upon himself to state that be was shot by the
police, and that, had it not been for the forbearance of the
magistrates, there would most assuredly have been a
repetition of the scenes of carnage and blood which
had hitherto taken place in that part of the country. Every
drop of blood sacrificed in the collection of tithes, the late
Right Hon. Secretary and his Majesty's Ministers were
answerable for.

Lord WYNFORD presented a petition from John Hall,
against theproposed abolition of slavery. He stated that
he bought in 1809 property flora the Government, in-
cluding slaves, under the Act of Parliament, and was
willing to give it up for the money he gave for it, amount-
ing to 18,0001., if his Majesty should ever give his con-
sent to the Bill now before the House of Commons. He
himself could not conceive what answer could be given in
a Court of Justice to the claims of the slave owners.
Mr. BERNAL and others brought up the Consolidated
Fund Bill.
Lord SUFFIELD begged to apologize to the House for
trespassing upon its attention, considering the great length
at which he had trespassed upon their attention a night or
two since, but he could not resist saying a few words upon
a remark of the Noble and Learned Lord who had just sat
down. The Noble Lord had said that he could not con-
ceive what answer could be given to the slave owner, but
he w0,..1at beg to Teed a few st ntsuces from a decision deli-
vered by Mr. Justice Best in the cause of Forbes v. Cochrane.
Mr. Justice Best in that case says, " There is no law
commanding us to recognise the rights of slavery, which
we have been called upon to do here, and we are bound
to transgress if there he that human law, if it be con-
trary to divine law. Slavery is against the rights of nations
and against Christian law. A slave cannot be considered
as chattel or property." Mr. Justice Best concluded by
►aying, " that he gloried, as a lawyer, in giving the opinion
he had ;" with which he (Lord Suffield) entirely agreed.
Lord WYNFORD said there was not one single opinion
in the paper just read by the Noble Lord with which he
did not now entirely agree. In fact, so much had he
acted upon the-e opinions, that once when a French slave
ship was, through stress of weather, obliged to put into
this country, he was the Judge applied to upon the occa-
sion, and he liberated every one that was on hoard. The
law of the land was, that the moment a slave set his font
in England he became free, for slavery could not exist in
this country. He had, in his capacity of a Judge, carried
the principle even farther than that, for be had decided that,
whenever a slave set his foot on the deck of a man-of-war,
where his Majesty's flag was flying, he also became free,
as that was to be considered for that purpose the same as
England. He had not forgotten when he gave the deci-
sion that had been quoted, that slaves constituted property
in slave countries, which the colonies were ; but the pro-
prietors of such property must keep them in those coun-
tries, or they inevitably become free. On speaking on
the subject, he had at all times expressed his opinion that
slavery should be put an end to; but at the same time he
had always held that compensation should be given to the
holders of slave property; and as it had been a national
disgrace, so ought the nation to pay such compensation.
The proprietors had purchased their property under the
sanction of British laws.

Lord SUFFIELD did not think it was necessary for the
Noble and Learned Lord to pursue his present line of ar.
gument. He was defending the judgment of Mr. Justice
Best. Now he did not think there was one Noble Lord
in that House who would find the least fault with it.

Mr. H. GRATTAN, after the statements which had
been made against him by the Hon. Member for Dublin,
could not refrain from again addressing the House. Thee
never was a more base and unfounded calumny than the
statement, that the severity with which he treated
his tenants, had reduced them to such a state
of distress and misery, as to render it impossible for
them to pay their tithes. He did not covet being called
a good landlord, but he was sure no one could call him a
bad one.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE was exceedingly
obliged to the Noble Lord (Suffield) for bringing out such
an important light on the subject, for if that judgment
was to be relied upon, there was an end at once to all
they had heard on the queer ion, not only from the Noble
and Learned Lord (Wynford) but also from the Noble and
Learned Lord on the Woolsack, about the property of man
in man.
Lord WYNFORD said both the Noble Lords opposite
proceeded on wrong grounds. That judgment applied only
to England, and did not extend to the colonies. He never
for a moment doubted but that the slave masters in slave
countries had as good a title to their property in them as
any of their Lordships h id to their lands.
-T h LORD CHANCELLOR—The law is so; but I
wit)i with au my heart it was abolished.
The subject then dropped, and their Lordships adjourned
till Monday.

Mr. SHAW said that he had it from a clergy-
man in the county of Meath, that the reason
why the tenants were unable to pay their tithes
was, the severity with which they were treated by
their landlords, and the high rents they were called upon
to pay.
Mr. H. GRATTAN said that there was not a single
tenant of his in the county of Meath who had not his
land from 2s. 6d. to ss. an acre.—(Hear.)
Mr. BARING deprecated all such irregular discussions.
He believed that the unfortunate encounter of which they
heard so uaxa Ili Ireland. arose from delusion and igno-
rance as to the intention of his 14iiijelitylrefftersitnenvnrce-

lation to tithes. He expressed his regret that the same method
of dealing was followed by Government in relation to the
West India question. There was a prevailing opinion
that the Noble Lord (Altborp) was going to dispose of
the question of Irish tithes, but no one knew auy
thing at all about his propositions.—(Hear, hear.) At the
same time, on the order of the day, there was notice of a
motion relative to English tithes, and although there was
no hurry, in fact, although no one cared a pin
about that question, it was inconveniently to be pushed
forward, while the Irish Tithe Bill, which was so much

HOUSE OF COMMONS, JUNE 7.

The SPEAKER took his sea again shortly after 5 o'clock
Mr. H. HUGHES gave notice that on Monday he
would move for returns showing the amount received by
the Legacy Duty Office for prosecuting for arrears of

legacy duty.
Mr. EWING presented a petition from the Under-
graduates of the University of Glasgow for a repeal of the

Apothecaries Act.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved for a return of the number of
writs issued or sealed by the Court of King's Bench, the
Court of Common Pleas, and the law side of the Exche-
quer in Ireland, from the last day of April to the 10th of
June, 1832, distinguishing in how many of those cases
clergymen were plaintiffs ; also a similar return for the
same period in the year 1833. Having last night pro-
mised a Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Lefroy) that
he would furnish instances of oppression in the collection
of tithes in Ireland, he was now enab'ed to name the
Rev. Dr. Sullivan, rector of Kilronan, who, it could be
proved, had issued a number of writs, and on the tithes being
tendered, the money was refused, and the parties were
referred to the attorney. The object of bis motion was to
show the extent to which such writs bad been issued.
Mr. FINN seconded the motion.
Mr. LEFROY did not rise to oppose the motion, but to
call the attention of the House to the charges which bad
been yesterday made by the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman. Those charges were directed against the whole
body of the clergy, whereas now he only mentioned one in-
stance. A single instance of oppression (if it be such) was
not sufficient to taint the whole body of clergy either in Eng-
land or Ireland. The Hon. and Learned Member had not told
tl,e House bow long the parties had withheld the p4ment
of tithes, nor whether they had paid any for the last three
years ; and yet now he complained that, on tendering the
amount, they were referred to a solicitor. He (Mr. Le-
froy) could not understand what the object of the motion
was, unless it was to imply that the clergy bad not the
same right to sue for their just demands as any other class
of persons in the community.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL in reply said, in all the cases to
which he had referred there had been no prior demand,
and. the greater part of the writs were issued for tithes
due on the Ist of May, to the amount of several hun-
dreds. Ai hough he had only mentioned the instance of
one parish there, were many others that he knew of, and
had written to Ireland for the names. lie did not deny

wanted, and in respect to which there was so much un-
easiness and anxiety, was necessarily suspended. He
really wished to know definitely whether it was
the intention of the Noble Lord to press the English Tithe
Bill during the present session. In his opinion, it was
impossible for the House to settle it during the present
session.

Lord ALTHORP undoubtedly d►d intend to persevere
with the English Tithe Bill in the present session. As
to the other question of Irish tithes, he had intended, and
had given notice to that effect, that on Wednesday he
would submit propositions to the House, but there being
no House, he was prevented from so doing. He intended
to-night to move that on Monday the House should resolve
into a Committee, in order to bring forward his proposi-
tions, which refer to the tithes of 1831, 1832, and the
present year. The Noble Lord then went on, but in a
very inaudible tone, to complain of the attack which had
been made relative to the arrangement of public business,
and observed how impossible it was that much progress
should be made, when there was almost no question which
came before the House, that did not occupy its different
stages several nights in succession.
Mr. GOUL BURN was desirous that the tithe question
should be dealt with in a becoming manner. Now, the
Noble Lord complained of the delay which arose from the
interminable discussions which were carried on upon every
question. In that he quite agreed with the Noble Lord;
but he must tell him, that the great cause originated in
the fact that the measures of his Majesty's Government
were introduced to the House before they had -been pro-
perly discussed, and therefore it became necessary in the
Committees: to suggest alterations without end; whereas,
if further time were taken for consideration, these discus-
sions would be prevented.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL (as we understood the Hon.
Baronet) said that the Noble Lord, entertaining, as no
doubt he did, the best intentions towards the church esta-
blishment, could not fail to know that this was a question
which had excited throughout the country the most in-
tense anxiety, and he hoped that, under the auspices of
that Noble Lord, it would be brought to a satisfactory issue.
Lord ALTHORP said, it certainly was his intention
to pass the two measures with reference to the church
this session. He should feel it his duty to press forward
these measures.
Sir R. PEEL agreed in the opinion expressed by an
Hon. Member in respect to the settlement of the commu-
tation of tithes. This was a case in which they were
called upon to determine the details of a Bill in which
the Government had affirmed the principles; and he
thought it better that the Government should take
further time to mature the details, and to bring forward a
Bill in a perfect shape. He hoped the Noble Lord would
at least look to the ►mass of business which remained to
be settled. He knew the Noble Lord could not exercise
a control over other gentlemen, but he hoped he would
over the other Members of his Majesty's Governmen►,
and that he would take care, as far as they were con-
cerned, no new measures should be brought forward.
Were they to be called upon this session to settle the
commutation of the tithes question? If they looked only
to the life which Hun. Members endured who bad to
attend the Committees on agriculture and commerce, and
on private business, it must be evident (for surely some
time must be allowed for domestic occupations) how little
time each Member could have to devote to those great
public questions which must come under discussion; and
therefore he wished the Noble Lord to tell them what were
tlie questions which they should prepare themselves upon
during the present session. The commutation of tithes
was one which it was impossible to pass during this se,-
sion. Again, various motions were continually brought
forward at this late period of the session, and he had
heard one Hon. Member give a notice of motion for doing
away with imprisonment for debt. No doubt this was
very important matter; but there bad alresdy been a very

the right of the clergy to sue for the money owing to
them, hut he thought that it was unjust to issue writs
without making a previous demand.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. GRATTAN declared that if the Hon. Member

for the University of Dublin was not satisfied with the
statement that had been made by the Hon. Member for
Dublin, he (Mr. H. Grattan) would pledge himself to
produce plenty of evidence of a similar nature.—(Hear.)
They were cases of every day occurrence.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member then-mentioned that of a Mr. Arm-
strong, who selected from a number of cattle that
might have been taken, those that were the least
capable of being driven, and instead of placing them in
a of
in the neighbourhood, had them sent to a distance
nearly five miles. The question was now become a
most serious one. On a recent occasion the 29th Regi-
, merit was called out, and a body of police, to disperse a
large number of persons that were assembled, when the
soldiers refused to fire, but the police did so, and one
man was killed. The Hon. Member made several other
observations, which the noise in the gallery prevented us
from hearing.
Mr. O'CONNELL was bound to add, that nothing
could be more exemplary than the conduct of the officer,
because when he was compelled to fire, and could resist
the orders to do so no longer, he fired at those furthest
from him, and not at those nearest to him, other wise
several must have fallen.
Mr. FINN was sure that if the people of Scotland and
England were ordered to pay tithes like thewe Irish, they
would not submit to it for one hour. In point of fact, the
tithe system in Ireland must be extinguished. Id the
County of Carlow, just now, a clergyman
Mr. Whitby) issued process for the payment of his tithes,
drove off the cattle worth Si. a head, and sold them I'm
4L each. It would be well for the gentlemen of England
and Scotland to understand and be aware that the people
of Ireland would not continue
_to pay that impost for

1)
6-)6
6-.X9 //-• (1; report nude upon it, sod it was impossible to discus
he question at present.
Colonel DAVIES said, so far from accusing the Noble
. . ,
Lord of any setrerity In pressing forward the business, be
} A did not think be forced it sufficiently. He should in the
ensuing session, if no other Hon. Member did it, move fur
the appointment of a Committee to consider the beet mode
of expediting the public boldness.
Dr. LUSHINGTON apprehendetlthe. greatest danger -;‘
from procrastinating the measure for the commutation of Aillr
tithes, and he declared that in various parts of the coon-
try there was a strong disPositimi to resist the payment of
tithes ; and, if they snowed this feeling to take place in
the breast of Englishmen as it had done in those of Irish-
men, they would have 'to contend with a difficulty which •
no man could exaggerate.
Mr. WASON said, the evil originated in allowing no..
tices to take precedence three days a week. They were
bound to go on with the business of the country.
Mr. STANLEY quite agreed with the Hon. Gentle-
man that it was their duty to go on with the business of
the country. How far the Hon. Gentleman' the Member
for Essex had assisted in doing this be would sot say. As •
yet only one of the resolutions had been agreed to; and •
the adoption of that very resolution rendered it more im-
portant that the House should continue its progress, and
not leave this resolution to remain naked and bare by itself.
After a few words from Sir M. W. RunatY, Colonel
Davies explained.
The motion was then agreed to.
EAST INDIA CHARTER.
Sir R. PEEL. seeing the Right Hon. Gentleman tie
President of the Board of Control in hie place, begged to
ask whether it was his intention to bring forward the
question of the East India Charter during the present
Session ? He wished to ask this question because the
subject was one upon which every Hon. Gentleman '
should be prepared.
Mr. C. GRANT, in answer to the queetion of the Right
lion. Baronet, begged to state distinctly that it was his
intention not only to bring the subject forward this ses-
sion, but he should do. so-on Tuesdity next.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
A message from the Lords announced their Lordship'
concurrence to certain Bills.
COLONIAL SLAVERY.
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the order of the
day was read, and the House resolved itself into a Com-
mittee upon the resolutions on colonial slavery.
Mr. BERNAL then took the Chair, and having put the
second resolution, to the effect that it was expedient that
all children born after the passing of this or any other
Act, or those who should be at the time under six years of
age, shall be declared free, but subject to such regulations
as may be necessary for their support.
Mr. HUME said that the Committee had already.
agreed to one resolution, in which he fully concurred, arid
which marked an important progress from the resolutions of
1823. Then the question went to that of the preparation of
the negroes for a state of freedom ; whereas in the pre-
sent instance the House had permitted itself to enter upon
a measure for the immediate abolition of slavery. He
had never agreed in the opinion that the moment they
could see their way to secure the liberty of the negroes
they were to do so in violation of the rights of the West
India planters. He considered it the duty of the country
to look fairly at the facts of the case. The state of slavery
of the blacks was a system which was acquiesced in and
s tuctioned by the country, and therefore be thought the
nation should know precisely what they were now cared
upon to do ; they ought not to rush he idlang into an
abyss. In the present state of the coon ry, lien he
found vast classes of the communil struviing
the most appalling difficult ea, he could not acre to the
drawing many millions ..f money from the country unless
he knew that by so doing the of jest which w t sought for
would be effected. He would sa) that the eff.et of a hat
had been already done bad been to withhold from these
colonies one.fourth of the capital which bad been hither 9
employed there ; and he held Li at, if the mast is iv ie
distress, it followed as a matter of eon's.. that et,e • av
could not be in a state of comfort. Again, t e t
of one-fourth of the capital being withheld must be
that one-fourth of the crop must be waning neat
s.tason, became he considered that in prop ,ition 4s
the capital was diminished so must the produce.
Were the people of England, who were air. ady h..avity
taxed, prepared to pay Is. per lb., or, if the supply were
n)t ieufficient, even double that amount, for sugar, instead
of 6d. ? Again, were they to extend the monopoly of
the supply to the West India planters, whatever the sup.
ply might be? But he must say that no paltry parish
question was ever treated with so much lightness as this
had been. The Right Hon. Secretary appeared to him to
represent, not the mediator between two parties, but the
violent partisan of one party, addressing himself to the
passions of the community at large.—(Hear.) He quite
agreed in the opinion that emancipation must take place;
Lot the House ought not to enter upon a crude measure.
If the Hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. O'Connell) was now
in the House, be would tell him that his speech the other
night upon this question was a mere address to the pas-
.t 5•55 to enni..q sense or cool judgment. He
now held in his bafirextray...- ..vide'-- pi2l
upon oath, before the Council of Trinidad. It appeared
that in 1821 two public officers were appointed to over-
look and attend to a number of slaves, men, women, and
children, amounting to eighteen hundred and tbirty-two.
They had been all liberated, and received every assistance
and encouragement. They were placed under the manage-
ment of officers appointed by the Crown, and supplied with
all necessaries for a year. The expense of this experiment
up to 1822 was (as we understood) 30,0001. Each slave got
sixteen acres of laud, free of taxes, with a supply of im-
plements necessary for cultivation. Mr. Robert Mitchell,
one of the superintendents, said that of the whole number
only about one half were sober persons. The other super-
intendent said in hie evidence that these emancipated
slaves would squander away in ruin whatever they could
get ; that he could not get them to work, if left to them-
...elves and uncontrolled by law ; that they did not live, as
to diet or dress, better than the very lowest class of slaves.
When asked whether they might not be got to work by a
system of fines, he said it would be useless, that he could
find no property to levy fines upon except the growing
produce, and that levying a fine upon that must have the
effect of diminishing cultivation. The conclusion to be
drawn from this was, that the experiment failed, and that
these slaves were not rendered sober, moral, industrious,
or religious. He could not but express his surprise at the
manner in which the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Stan-
ley) took up, and, without further inquiry, drew moat
important conclusions from, assertions made by a gentle-
man now in this country, a native of Yen, zuela, as to the
cultivation of sugar by free blacks. The fact was, that
the whole of the rum made in Trinidad was sent to Ve-
nezuela, though the Right Hon. Secretary told them that
the rum of Venezuela was sent to Trinidad. This could
not be the case. By law not a single gallon of rum could
be imported into Trinidad from Venezuela or any other
P• lace The emancipation of the slaves in the Caraccas
proceeded in a way quite different to that now proposed,
for they took twelve years there to emancipate one
hundred thousand slaves, being only one tenth of the
whole population.—(Hear.) They did not give them
freedom all at once, as was now proposed. They emanci-
pa'ed the best behaved, and paid to the owner the full
price for them, and not the one-fourth, as proposed in the
plan of Government. The Right Hon. Secretary told
them that sugar was never cultivated in the Caraccas until
the slaves were emancipated, and the principle of free
labour acted upon. Now in the evidence from which be
read extracts before, it was stated by a judge in Trinidad,
a native of the Caraccas, that sugar was always cultivated
there by slaves, and not by free labour. In place of two-
thirds of the sugar produced there being cultivated, as
the Right Hon. Secretary said, by free labour, he could
prove upon the best authority, that the very contrary was
the fact. Mr. St. Aulaire (we believe), in his evidence,
said that sugar and cocoa were cultivated entirely by slaves.
It was true, indeed, that the slaves in the Caraccas were
now amalgamated with the rest of the population, and many
of theta were good and industrious labourers. Another
experiment similar to the one he before alluded to, had
teen made, and what was the result ? He would
state it to the House. In 1811 many hundred slaves
were given up to this country by the Dutch. • They were
all placed in the Island of Demerara under the manage-
tnent of commissioners, at the bead of whom there Mr.
Wilberforce and Mr. Stephen. In the first year there
was a reduction of seventy-five in their number, being
one-fourth per cent. of the whole; and in three years not
less than nine thousand pounds were draws from the
Treasury for their support. Comutisaionc: a were 'rot
out for tie purpose of making di* ois ta .ncv‘2,-aga
them to the cultivation of sug tr. U
however, these Coos hiss tme.. ma le h.,' t p trr, au f,
of course, they had no meats of a ctr.athinz the
result of the Expliii ent. Hr p,o,ms.al ni v;ttg for t e
necessary docuite res, but Lerd G ric a et,orseed shine
unwillingness to pioduee them, dud his m tad was dr,su
away from the subject by 'Auer bu-ke-a. H. s'.oi•id.
however, take a 'rure oppm tuni y 0. m ',trig tor the in-
formation,communicis ed my these Cimino'. ooers- Mini-
sters were te ma-edit:A in utter tour oc • in a t 44.3 tb-
to tr.* le them., 1e..,
oserncpearoifiatahwea
—(Hear ) ter
correct.it hat
t
me j`•
e
colonists Om gaidai cue or len, ti,at 11 asst.. They
did no am -la twin but they tt isaly and propetly disr --
garcled the Order in (Amnia. ill prove) themssig.at