The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-29 00:00:00

t to the original
city of Limerick ; and in giving his sup
ee
oxnc et
eernd ipntg loyf
the
H dangerousous if i
House
eo
mntitt
tis case
tedh y they refused
the Hon.
aon.
Member
ettno pheurn
foris h thee
t h
s lative bodyhis duty.
eof merelytthe
edischarging )leegri
mHoetimona,inhteaicnoendcetihvaetd
tthheatexhiestwenacs
orders and regulations of the House.
de-
pended in a great measure upon theprokoverhactomrepslpiaeteicteww.iuthldthbeo
paid to the Legislature, if its members were found to be incapa-
ble of enforcing laws for their own good? He hoped, therefore,
that the House would persist in pressing the original motion.
One Hon. Member had said that no man ought to vote upon
that motion who was not prepared to vote for a direct punish.
went of the contempt ; and another Hon. Member had sug-
gested, that if the original motion should be passed, the House
ought to give the Hon. Member an opportunity of expressing
his apology to the House for the contempt of which he had been
guilty. But he (Sir R. H. highs) was not prepared even to
grant that delay, because he felt that such delay had never yet
been granted to any other individual Member of that House
who had been found guilty of a disobedience to its orders. He
sseEhoanorgui
nlleidsfthhnt,
iohswteceb:araesewep,bseorotmuhf neti dht
teHet
del
(a, antnot.dt
‘nnl
ideoeamtdo pleab
atehnroo
of ignorance
egiognronorotdrrhaeaenrnscece;ei
taoyt,nf,
ad
3,
aa,s,
saw no good for such delay. All Members, whether Irish or
iint tetdh e;
ot
hf eLimerick
should not be permitted to plead an ignorance of the rules ofrules
the House. It could not be argued that the Hon. Member
had not had sufficient notice of the order of the House, because
it was regularly published wi•li the other notices. The Hon.
Member was clearly bound to attend on a raiiway Commit •
tee as well as upon any other conceivable measure that came
before the House, if he were selected to attend. Under all
these circumstrnces, he could not but feel that it was the abso-
lute duty of the Haus..s to agree to the motion of his Hon.
Friend and colleague.
Mr. FITZGERALD, amidst some impatience, said that he
hoped the House would permit him to make a few observations
on this subject. It was very interesting to every Irish mem-
ber, and therefore he thought that he was entitled to the indul-
gence of the House for a few moments. The Hon. Member

for Limerick had conceived it to be his right to deny the rizht
of the House to compel him to attend upon a railway Corn
mittee, and he (Mr. Fitzgerald) was in hopes that his Hon.
Friend would not have persisted in trying that question. The
opinion entertained by his Hon. Friend on this subject was par.
ticipated in by the majority of the people of Ireland. He, for
his own part, hail not yet heard any argument that would in-
duce him to concede with the views of the Attorney-General
en this question. On the contrary, all that he had heard only
induced him to give his support to the amendment proposed by
the Hon. Member (Mr. Warburton). The Hon. Member for
Montrose (Mr. Hume) had stated that the Members of the
House were bonnd to perform all duties of the House; and he
( Mr. Fitzgerald) begged to observe to the Hon. Member, that
the Irish Members were in a peculiar situation. The Hon.
Member should recollect that the majority of the Irish Mem-
bers had been elected on the condition of not attending to any
duties in that House.—( Great laughter.) The Hon. Member,
in reply to the statement that it was a prevalent opinion that
there was a great difference between EngliAt and Irish Mem-
bers, had said that there was indeed a difference between them,
and it was this, that the Irish Members were not subject to the
payment of the income-tax. But that Hon. Member should
remember; that the majority of the Irish Members resided
during the greater portion of the Fear in England, and thereby
snhjected themselves to the payment of that tax. Undoubtedly
if the Government had thought that the amount to be received
in Ireland in the shape of incomes tax would have yielded any-
thing to their cioffer-, they would have subjected Ireland to the
income-tax.—( Hear, hear.) He was confidently of opinion
that his Hon. Friend, the Member for Limerick, in refusing to
comply with the rules of the House, had no intention of con-
temning them ; he acted under the belief that he was dis-
charging his duty to his country, and he, therefore, could not
vote for the original motion.—(" Hear, hear," and loud cries
of "Divide, divide.")
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. The House
divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment

Against it
Majority
The House then divided upon the original motion, when
there appeared—
In favour of ......
Against
Majority

133

--120

Upon our re-admission into the gallery, we found
Mr. ESTCOURT moving that the Hon. Member for
Limerick should be committed to the custody of the Sergeant-
at-Arms.
Colonel RAWDON then rose and bore testimony to the
character of the Hon. Member for Limerick. He considered
that he had acted upon a mistaken principle. He had looked
upon his duty more in the light of what he had to do out of
the House, rather than what he had to do in it. He thought
that the House should allow some time to the Hon. Member in
order to give him an opportunity of reteetlaidering his position.
He contrasted his character with th'e' . s'..Members for Cork
and Kilkenny, who, entertaining the se 'e political opinions,
had net shrunk from the performance of their duties. The
House Laving asserted its dignity in so unequivocal a manner,
he thought the Hon. Member might be induced to retrace his
steps.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL did not wish to accept any compli-
ment at the expense of his Hon. Friend !.he Member for Lime-
rick. He, the Hon. Member for Limerick, had performed
faithfully what he considered to be his duty, and he thought
his sincerity shoidd be respected ; he thought some time should
be allowed to the Hon. Member to reconsider his position. If
they did not do so, it would be considered by the Irish people
as a proof of hostility to the Irish Members.—( Cries of No,
no.") Hon. Members might say " No, no," but he knew
that the sympathies of the people were now with the Hon.
Member. He thought that a Commission ought to be ap-
pointed to inquire and report into the circumstances. Under-
standing that a motion was about to be made, the Hon. Mem-
ber deelined to press the motion.
Lord MORPETH had given most reluctantly two votes
upon the question then before the House, and was prepared to
vote in favour of the Hon. Member for Oxford's motion, ex-
cept some sufficient reason should be shown to the contrary ; but
after the large majorities of this House, he thought that some
little time should be given to the Honourable Member, in order
to ascertain whether he would not himself now be prepared to
yield to the clearly ascertained opinion of that House. It had
been stated in the course of the debate, that the Hon Member
for Limerick did not entertain any precise notion that the con-
, duct he intended to pursue would be regarded as an act of
contempt to the orders of the House. The House had ex-
pressed its opinion. It would seem considerate in thewi to see
whether the expressed opinion had had any effect upon the
Hon. Member. Most earnestly he wished this might be the
case —( Hear, hear)—looking to the number of the notices
which the Han. Member had upon the paper, and the various
subjects connected with the interests in Ireland, upon which
he had taken an active part. Let the Hon. Member not forget,
that he had been following the example set by the Honourable
Member for Cork, who certainly, in no less degree than for
no shorter period of time, had been occupied in subjects con-
cerning the welfare of the Irish people. He had not thought
it inconsistent with his devotion to the Irish people, or with his
advocacy of the repeal of the union, to take his part in com-
mon with all other Members of that House, in dispatching
the local business of the House, whether English, Irish, or
Scotch. The Hon. Member for Limerick should not forget
that English and Scotch Members had not shown themselves
backward in attending to Irish business. Unusual facilities
had been given, both by that House and the House of Lords,
to Irish Bills. He thought the House would stand better in
the eyes of the people of this country, and that of Ireland, if
it allowed the Hon. Member an opportunity to bow to the
general sense of the House. If, unfortunately, the House
should not be prepared to grant this delay, he thought the
better course would be to adopt the motion similar to that
of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny. He proposed that the
; Hon. Member for Oxford s'ould withdraw his motion, and
that the Hon. Member for Limerick be requested to attend
in his place, in order that the Speaker might communicate to
f him the decision of the House.
Mr. ESTCOURT had been governed by precedent in the
• course he had adopted, and he knew of no precedent to with-
, 'draw his motion. He could only be guided by precedent. It
• would be entirely unbecomming in him to withdraw his motion.
Mr. WARD considered that the House surely did not need
a precedent in order to give an Hon Member time to come to
a calm consideration. The Hon. Member was not required to
withdraw his motion—he was only required to postpone it.
He was himself employed for seventeen days upon a Galway
Committee last year, but he never dreamt of asking whether
it was an Irish or an English Committee delegated to him by
Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped the Hon. Member
would consent to postpone his motion.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that his suggestion was, that the
motion be postponed. He spoke for himself; he had had no
communication with Mr. S. O'Brien ; but he considered, by a
t:elay of two days, they would not in the least be tarnishing
the dignity of the House. In the meantime, it was to be hoped
that the Hon. Member might feel himself at liberty to pursue
a course which would be more consistent with the feelings of
the House.
Sir R. PEEL said that the House had decided by a very
large majority that a contempt of its authority had been com-
mitted, and it manifested in that majority a decided determina-
tion to support its authority. Yet at the same time he did not
think that that dignity would be prejudiced by giving the Hon.
Gentleman some time for calm consideration, that they might
not throw any difficulty in the way of the Honourable Gentle-
man's pursuing a different coarse, and he did trust, with the
advice of his friends he would be guided by more moderate
counsels. He trusted the opinion of the Honourable Member,
which he -0 highly valued upon these subjects, and who was
entitled to the gratitude of the country for the part which he
had taken, purely out of a sense of public duty, would
not consider that they were establishing an inconvenient prece-
Ident by the course they were about to adopt.—( Hear, hear. )
He believed that forbearance was the wisest course which they
could pursue, and he was therefore for postponing the debate
until Thursday next, and in the meantime the Hon. Member,
seeing the opinion which had been expressed, might be induced
to retrace his steps by the advice of his friends.
Mr. O'CONNELL--I wish not to be misunderstood. Ido
not pledge myself that the Hen. Member will pursue the course
which the House would wish.
Sir R. PEEL—Oh, no; we have not understood you so
to do.
Mr. WYSE did not see any reason for opposing the course
proposed. If it was unusual, the circumstances were novel ;
and
abLaiodfr he d
Lord
precedent,eNolno sßiperEehdeTtwahQautwl
would
adopting
thatot
oinugpi
oppose
to
should
bah
neinyt were establishing
course but that which should appear most consistent b e understood,
w ith aiitany
that he did not desire that the House should pursue n
own dignity. He did wish that some brreetarathciinn
be allowed by having the debate adjourned,gnioiggf
Ee ttsQhhtieeou debate,
E:gt);aßh.asr_thoeTip'ineuteiidseoh:au7ortt ouh.ubn;:ydit
histi steps.
oevtheaun
rtrhOenpadtotphf opportunity
rt(bhae ndn
the
Eh: yrueXter
business
fus
it
takeATf wouldhr
Membere.preference
ll bAme l g
EhunderstoodCHANCELLOßtsho concurred
r
the two last speakers.
e
rsitpheen ‘it
acrrumi
nig remember
Limerickna..
rtl
ntomi:
3ftf
eoHt
lueont
wemAntßnhhseblfoKate:
tßrorEsepf
tcYerra ißtmsnilleogeeNn theirct
strongly
appeared
discussion.aHon Lmo wdE
nleen Sr s
tpathAt srioh
iadlisneeidiemsir bpbbcelwtejoehTeraasacwhs:ttie:daheettihi
hnhrsfeaos:
teptntihoha.ohroierientpc:fee_nicusdeasls
House
eoidubnuuwoeetfcinayourfan.tl
ndo.)-
t
t
, thoughtoirt
quite unnecessary that any further delay should be interposed
of
fe between the motion
andutio ofhe
atrh,ehlle
hear.")
)M eHmobe(r
Nfoi
rr Oixifooorhde—) (hteopr ieeds
that Hen. Members would not consider that .he was perform-
ing an agreeable duty.—( Hear, hear.) Heassuredd the House
fn
that nothing but his sense of duty, and his
endhisshipl for the
Hon. Member, could induce him to get u
make the statement which he had done. in
But his Hand
Friend was so convinced of the rectitude of the course which
h
e had adopted, and so impressed with its propriety, that his
resolution remains unchanged, and he (Mr. Roch©) did not
consider it his duty to conceal the facts of the case.
Sir R. PEEL—I doubt whether we had not better pursue
our own course. The House was willing to establish a pre•
cedent, that time for consideration should be allowed; and I
do think, after the course which it seems willing to pursue, '
that there will be a general desire that we had better not
change that course from any statement which may be made.
Mr. BULLER considered that the House would be con.
suiting its own dignity in the best mode by allowing a short
ipue rt ihorel o emlapse before e ,
the d
difficulty
they should
oul
tymight
got to any step, and,
over.
ohfe
thhaed
Hnoont. tGh ee
ustlilegmh taeos t; hhees iwt aot
would
ol d
accordingly move n
adjourned, and thet
it bTehroedsuetametde awtat3hethteimn eadlopurrnieeadt.e business on Thursday next.
in
Aaldro.pEtiSngTtCh?srujßgtghTeasttsiaoithnde debate be then