The Sun.
London, England, 1848-05-17 00:00:00

members of the ehareer; and the publ c conviction was
that such was riot the ease. But if the law were not
violated, was it fitting that the state et the Church of
England should be subjected to these perpetual uiseus-
-ions year after year? Whhin the last 14 or 15 years
the question of the iecerne of the cathedral clergy had
',wen taken up and fully examined, and a legislative
measure had been passed relative (hereto. It was said
there were numerous clergy whose income was con-
siderably less than that of the canons; but why not make
the same objections against the gradation of rank and
income in all civil and laical professions arising from the
necessary inequality or condition? Such gradation he
believed to be on the whole beneficial, though he was far
from wishing that the incomes of the poorer clergy
should be so low. He would not pull down the high,
but elevate the low. He should as soon think of
taking the incomes of the aristocracy of England and
distributing them amongst the people as of taking
the incomes of the hierarchy of the Church to aue •
ment those of the poorer
,clergy. He maintained"
that in this respect there was no difference between
Church property and property of any other kind. If the
income of the Bishop of London was to be taken away,
they would have just as good a right to seize that of
the corporation of London. The lion. and Learned
Gentleman said that with the exception of St. Martin's,
which was the mother church of England, the incomes
of the incumbents of the other 15 livings in the neigh-
bourhood of the cathedral of Canterbury were very
small
(Siirtb tbe dea lins) and chapter of Canterbury? regretted that; but what
his d to He (Sir
w
R. Inglis)
They were not bound to raise the incomes of the
churches in their neighbourhood any more than those
at a greater distance. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
Mali brought it as an accusation against the dean and
chapter that a population of only y 5,700 attended the 16
churches in the neighbourhood of Canterbury, while
4,800 perscns attended dissenting chapels. He wished
that all persons were members of the Church of England;
but the fact that there were 4,800 persons attending
dissenting chapels in Canterbury did not justify an
attack upon the dean and chapter. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman also said that the number of
official persons who attended daily service' at Christ-
church, in Oxford, was 15, and that but 18 not officials
attended. He thought the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
must have been very much misinformed in that re-
spect, because he could say from his own experience
that the cathedral of Christchurch was most numerously
attended. Every place was occupied, and the congrega-
tion was as attentive as in any parish church in England.
—(Hear, hear.) He could also state that the cathedral
body there charged the tithes with 3601. a year, for the
purpose of augmenting the livings of the poorer clergy,
and one of the colleges sacrificed 2001. a year for the
purpose of increasing one of the small vicarages. The
Hon. and Learned
,Gentlenaan, however, directed his
attack chiefly against the cathedral of Lincoln, and said
that in the year 1831 an income of 6,9801. was divided
amongst four individuals—the dean, the sub-dean, chan-
cellor, and precentor. He could not say why the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman should select the income of
1831 rather than the income of 1848 ; but in the first
place he would remark that no rerson had a right to
meke an inquiry respecting the income of another.
whether lay or clerical, unless he asked for an increase.
He might say, however, without breach of privilege, that
the income of one of those individuals was 1,500/. ; and
he would ask the House whether that was too large a
sum for a person filling one of the higher stations in
the Church ? But he received 1,5001. for the first
year only. The second year he received but 1,1001., and
this, the third year, his income was 8001. only, out of
which he had to pay 2001. for the building of a house.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then went on to
Carlisle Cathedral, in respect to which the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman's colleague (Mr. Aglionby) took
every opportunity of asking the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Secretary of State when he would introduce his Bill
for the compulsory enfranchisement of copyholds. That
Hon. and Learned Gentleman held a beneficial lease
under the dean and chapter of Carlisle, which he wished
to convert into a more beneficial freehold.—(" Hear,
hear," from Mr Aglionby) The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman quoted from a celebrated petition, which
stated that the dean and chapter of Carlisle had an in-
come of 20,000/. a year in one county, the fact being
that their revenue from the three counties of Northum-
berland, Cumberland, and Westmoreland, was 17,000/,
of which they received only 3,300/., the other Hon.
and Learned Member for Cockermouth, and other
lawyers, receiving the difference. The petitioners,
however, told their own story, and they left
it to be inferred that the dean and chapter received all
the money. They stated that the dean and chapter re-
ceived 2,0001. from the parishes of Wetheral and War-
wick, the actual income which they received being only
3501. lie could not see why the dean and chapter
should be called on in their character of lay impropria-
tors to supply the spiritual destitution of those places
out of an income of 3501., whilst others were receiving
the difference. The amount received by each canon of
the cathedral of Carlisle was 5301., which could not be
considered too much for those who occupied a pre-emi-
nent position in the Church. He hoped he never would
so far forget the principles on which he always acted as
to be unmindful of the 'spiritual destitution of the coun-
try. He felt now as strongly as ever the national a:-
well as personal duty of promoting the instruction of
those who were ignorant ; but, as ho stated on a
former occasion, and as all subsequent inquiry con-
vinced him, that could not be done by individuals. It
could not be done by the plan of the Right lion.
Baronet. What . could be done by that plan had
been done, but the spiritual destitution of the people
was not diminished. He agreed in the expression of
the Noble Lord that civil and social prudence, as well as
the religious duty, called upon them to provide for the
instruction of those who were spiritually destitute.
There was no better guarantee for the permanence of
their institutions, and the rights of property, than that
the people should be religious and educated. How
were these to, be imparted to them ? All their exer-
tione,and all the,exertions
to overtake the amount of destitution which prevailed.
They should not look to an altered distribution of the
church revenues, which had already been carried as far
as it could be carried, or to any other extrinsic means,
but to national aid; and the nation would tail in its duty
if, while it provided at the public expense for all the
other interests of the country, it, neglected and disre-
garded that which he believed to be,the most vital and
essential of all.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. AGLIONBY said that the Hon. ',Baronet had
made a most uncalled-tor and unreasonable allusion to
him personally, and he could not conceive what had
caused him to do so; for, although he cordially sup-
ported the proposition of his Hon. Colleague, which he
hoped would excite that attention in the House which he
knew it excited throughout the country, be never said
anything to justify the Hon. Baronet in alluding to him
as he hail done. It was true,that he had asked the Right
lion. Baronet the hecretary of State when be would
tsriug in his Bill for making compulsory the enfranchise-
ment of copyholds, and he would continue to do so again
and again till that odious custom was abolished. It was
true that he was a leaseholder under the dean and
chapter, but that had nothing to do with the question
leedid
before the House. -
not think that the dean and
chapter of Carlisle had a right to tax skill, capital,
and labour, and to reap where it never sowed. The lion.
Baronet alluded to a petition which had been presented
to the House this session, lie thought the dean
and chapter had reasoa to say of the Hon. Baronet,
"Save me from my friends." He did not wish to
cast opprobrium on individuals. What he found fault
with was the system. Now, the petition which the
Hon. Baronet alluded to contained statements, some of
which he himself knew to be true, and the others he
believed to be true. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
here read several of the statements in the petition, to the
effect that the duties were performed by curates, who
received only 201. a year, and in many instances smaller
sums; that there was no resident incumbent, and that the
Parochial house was in a ruinous state; that two of the
largest and most populous parishes, including the city of
Carlisle, were served by curates, to whom the dean and
chapter only gave 51. a year; that the incumbent of arm-
ther of the parochial curacies died in a workhouse. He
thought it was a shame and a scandal that such a state
of things should be suffered to exist, whether by lay or
clerical impropriators.—(Hear, hear.) When seven out
of' the nine persons who were connected with the dean
and chapter of Carlisle were the sons of archbishops or
bishops, it was apt to create a suspicion, however wor-
thy the individual might be, that matters were not
fairly managed.—(Heisr, hear.) The petitioners stated
at the end of the petition that they had no reason to
believe the other cathedral churches were hewr ma-
naged, and he (Mr. Aglionby) concurred in that opi-
nion.—(Hear, hear.)
Col. SIBTHORP defended the clergy of Lincoln from
the attack of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. H.e.
was sure that they would if
not object to inquiry ; and
one were to take place, the charges of the Hon. Member
would be found to be frivolous, vexatious, and un-
founded. He had two relatives connected with the
church in LinColn, and he should like to know whether
he alluded to either of them. He did not know of what
religion the Hon. Gent,
Gentleman was, or whether he was of
any.—(Order,) He felt strongly o and he
n the subject,
thought he was justified in speaking as did, when the
of
Honourable Gentleman accused the c
lerg y he
f it,
would Lincoln of
be most
conduct which, if they were guilty o
disgraceful to them.
Mr. HORSMAN said he brought no charges against
individuals. What he complained of was the system,
Col. SIBTHORsaid the P living of Washingboro' was
one of those which was included in the limits of ten
miles around Lincoln, and if that did not give him a
right to complain, he did not know what did.
Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE quite agreed with the Hon.
Mover, that his motion had in no way,
he question had been based upon
personal assault or individual attack. The
been based, and very properly based, on the operation
and administration of the law, and in that view he was
h hee
The question being, w et
himself about to treat it. A
the state of the law was one which required amend-
ment,he ac of i t h epthought the
he admitted that on t
left ermanently
law was not one which our the toe be
the old cathc-
without alteration. That law broke up
much reduced its efficiency. It
deal system, and very
bound the canons to residence for three
monthsthat
everybut it left the definition of.residence
twelve,s in a very
very doubtful, and it left other matbteer
desirable
most to
ques-
tionable position, which it would
have settled. lie confessed for his own part that he
should like greatly to see the system reconsidered.
Everything connected with learning, it should be the
duty of the cathedral dignitaries to promote, and the Act
was very defective in not insisting in some way that ca-
llous should do something to render cathedral establish-
ments;
conducive to the promotion o f theological learn-
ing, lie should be glad to see some of the stalls appro-
priated distinctly to educational purposes, whilst others
were made available to the furtherance of the parochial
ministry, In the case of the former, permanent resi- s
dente would be required, and the holders of the stalls
should have no otter prefernaent. In the latter case
;the stalls held by persons having charge of large