The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-19 00:00:00

ARRIVALS.

morrow.

The Earl of Longford in Albemarle-street, from Brighton;
Earl Fitzwilliam, in Grosvenor-street, from Milton Park ;
Lieut.. General Sir James Kempt, in Pall-mall, from Windsor
Castle; Colonel Clayton, M.P., in Gloucester-place, Portman-
square, from Marden Park, Godstone, Surrey; Baron Fagel,
at Batt's Hotel, Dover-street, from the Hague; Count Lim-
burg Stirum, at ditto, from the Hague; Viscount Sidmouth, at
ditto, from Early Court, Berks ; J. O'Connor, Esq., at ditto,
from the Continent; R. W. Hall, Esq., at ditto; Mr. and Mrs.
Dixon, in Park-lane, from the Continent; William Rembhard,
at the St. James's Hotel, Jermyn.street, from Cheltenham;
Captain Layton, at Raggett's Hotel, Dover-street, from Brigh-
ton ; William Ashton, Esq., at ditto, from a tour; General
Goblet and his Aide-de-camp, Captain Beaulieu, at the Bruns.
wick Hotel, Jermyn-street, from Brussels ; Peter H. Lovell,
Esq., and S. Lovell, Esq., at Marshall Thompson's Hotel, Ca-
vendish-square; Miss Chauncy at ditto; Charles Bayley, Esq.,
and George Thornton Bayley, Esq., at ditto; J. Fellowes, Esq.,
at ditto; R. Sidebotham, Esq., Miss Sidebotham, and Miss
Clarke, at the Union Hotel, Cockspur.street, from Hyde, near
Manchester; J. Towers, Esq., AI P., at ditto, from Weald
Hall, Essex; R. L. Sheil, Esq., M.P., at ditto; Alexander
Reid, Esq., at ditto, from Liverpool; Messrs. Phillips, Entwistle,
Munster, Irvine, Unwin, F. White, M.D., Mullins, Joyce,
Thorley, John A. L. O'Grady, Mahon, Robertson, J. White,
and Captain Palmer, R.A., at ditto, from the West Indies.
DEPARTURES.
The Archbishop of Aimagh and the Ladies Beresford, from
Charles-street, St. James's-square, for St. Leonard's; the Mar_
quis and Marchirmess of Ely, from Mivart's Hotel, Lower
Brook-street, cza Leamington ; the Earl and Countess of Ches-
terfield, ca a visit to the Marquis and Marchioness of Exeter at
Burleigh House; Lady Kilmaine, from South-street, for the
Continent ; Mrs. and the Misses Canning, from Montagu.
square, for Sawston Hall, in Cambridgeshire; Robert Gordon,
Esq., High Sheriff of the county of Down, Mrs. Gordon, and
suite, from Cheltenham, for their seat in Ireland; Captain and
of Wight ; Sir John Sebright, Bart., for his seat, Beechwood,
l
Bollard, from histferlo, seat
Wiltshire,e
ja
de ri itmEnt
ditto,
to:bsrfrtfrrooel
mke
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Cheltenham
fditto,oLordr h
ifso
r;Georgethhseat,es
11::v. George Jenyns, from Batt's Hotel, for Tunbridge Wells ;
Mr. and Mrs. Beaumont Swete, from Symmons's Hotel, St.
James's-street, on a tour ; Sir Robert and Lady Harland, from
seat.LBLH Bognor
gndr
nynt
oaoA;rxi.
Lodge
hre
djßis
from the
e;LylncyhogaTen,ph:fßor. E
somsomyaogasl. Eaton-square, for Cowes Castle, Isle
the St. James's Hotel, for their seat, Wherstead, Suffolk ; the
Hon. R. E. Plunket, from ditto, for Dublin ; Robert Raikes,
F,sq., jun., Mrs. Raikes, and family, from Marshall Thompson's
Hotel ; the Hon. Joseph M. White, Mrs. Florida White, D.
Sears, Esq., and family, from ditto, for France ; Thomas R.
Thornton, Esq., from ditto; Major Russell, R.A., from the
Union Hotel, for Hampshire ; J. Reynolds, Esq., 16th Lancers,
from ditto, for Bengal ; D. Hunter, Esq., from ditto, for Black-
ness House, N. 8.;
J. Mansfield, J. Mackenzie, and J. Wemyss,
Divs., from ditto, for Edinburgh.

A disease is at present raging to a great ex-
tent amongst the cows in France. It is said more than
20,000 have died. The farm of Rainey has lost a great
❑umber by the disease.—French Paper.
In the family of Mr. MASON, ironmonger, of
Great Marylebone•street, an awful mortality has recently
occurred in the death of his three eldest daughters,
followed by that of his wife, in the short space of three
weeks, by that malignant disease the scarlet fever.
The harvest is commencing in the province
of Hainault. A more abundant crop has not been seen
in the memory of man. Wheat, barley, and oats ale
extremely fine. The leguminous plants, as well as the
The appearance of the country excites the admiration o
strangers.
Poppies, &c., are every thing that can be wished.
The hail has destroyed the greater part of the
tobacco,
ever seen in the Commune of Curenge (Liege).
tTfilhbeeasetrye, oats, hemp, &c., all have perished. The loss
of the poor inhabitants is enormous ; it is estimated at
100,000 francs.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 18.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA presented a petition from
the inhabitants of the county of Bucks against tht Z,about
Rate Bill.
Lord ROLLE returned his thanks to the Noble Duke
(Richmond) for the introduction of the Labour Rate Bill,
which he was convinced would be a great benefit to the
country.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved for a copy
of all papers received at the Foreign-office on or before
the 15th inst. from any competent party in the Portuguese
Regency, which induced his Majesty's Government to send
to the Committee at Lloyd's, informing them of the block-
ade of the Portueuese Ports.—Agreed to.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that he thought in
fact it was a paper blockade.
Earl GREY said that intimation had been given them
of the blockade about to be established, and they had
thought it right to communicate it to Lloyd's.
The Earl of ELDON wished to know whether the
matter of blockade was consistent with that neutrality
which his Majesty at the opening of the session had
stated his determination to adopt. He could not recon-
cile the proceeding with the declaration of his Majesty.
Earl GREY said that the notification of the blockade
would have taken place if the fleet of Don Miguel had
been successful just much as in the present instance_;.
and he could take upan himself to say, that nothing in-
consistent with the rules adopted in such cases had taken
place.
The Earl of ELDON wished to know how it hap-
pened, then, that an officer who had been guilty of trans-
gressing the orders of neutrality, had been only punished
with dismissal.
Earl GREY was at a loss to know in what other man-
ner he could be punished, and what else could be done.
The Earl of ELDON wished the Noble Earl to ask
the law officers of the Crown, whether nothing more
could be done.
After some further observations from the Marquis of
LONDONDERRY and Earl GREY across the table, which
were totally inaudible in the Gallery, the Noble Marquis
withdrew his motion on this subject, which stands for to-

IRISH CHURCH 'TEMPORALITIES BILL.
The order of the day for resun:'.ing the adjourned debate
on the Bill having been read,
Lord CARBERY rose to address the 'louse,
but the
Noble Lord spoke in so law a tone that it wa..s almost
im-
possible to catch a single sentence which his
Lordship
uttered. We understood the Noble Lord to begin h; de-
precating the anti-tithe meetings, and requesting to know
why they had not been put an end to, as he felt
perfectly certain if such measures bad been adopted,
Ministers would never have been called upon to pass the
Coercive Bill. In support of this statement, the Noble
Lord read extracts from the evidence of Dr. Doyle.
He supposed every one of their Lordships had read his
letters to Lord Farnham, and horn them be would have
them to make out in their own minds how far he was
implicated. With respect to the principle of the Bill, be
bad very great objection, and considered it as most dangerous
not only to the church of Ireland, but also to that of
England. Then as to the diminution of the number of
Bishops; in his opinion that part of the measure would
be most disastrous, for in Ireland the case was not
as it was in this country, there being there a ri-
va!ry between two churches, so that cutting off ten
Bishops from the Protestant Church, while the full
strength was left to the Catholic, was only giving them
an advantage, which they would pursue till they be-
came (which was what they aimed at) the paramount
Church. To prove that assertion, he stated that be was in-
formed, and believed it to be a fact, that already negotiations
had been going on in several places for the purchase of the
Bishops' palaces for the residences of the Catholic Bishops.
Instead of sequestrating the revenues of certain parishes,
and placing them at the disposal of a body of com-
missioners, they ought to be appropriated to the
building of churches in such parishes, and, till the church
was built, paying a curate a small salary. With respect
to the vestry cess, it was a tax upon the land, and he did
not see why the land should not pay it. He was an Irish
proprietor, but should base no objection to the imposition
of a tax of Is. 1 ]4d. per acre on land in Ireland to make
up the sum now wanting, if he could thus preserve the
Protestant Church.—(Hear.)
The Bishop of EXETER said that he rose to address
their Lordships on the most important subject that had
been under their consideration for ages, he had almost
said, and he believed he might truly say, for centuries.
When he found a man possessing a noble and honourable
mind like that of the Noble Baron, who said that
notwithstanding the objections he had to this Bill on the
most solemn grounds of principle, he felt himself bound,
by the pressure of necessity, to agree to the second read-
ing of this Bill; it was impossible for him (the
Bishop) not to feel that, in rising to oppose those
principles, he had undertaken a very heavy responsibility.
He took this responsibility upon himself, awful as it
was, because he felt it to be his conscientious duty to cast
aside all personal considerations, and devote himself solely
to what be believed to be truth and the Church of Go I.

He deeply lamented that there were some parts of the Bill
which made it necessary for their Lordships to deal with
it under some degree of restraint; they knew that in another
place a right was asserted which their Lordships had
not formally admitted, but which had long been
acquiesced in, to consider solely by themselves the
amount of any tax which was to be imposed by the Legis.
lature ; he lamented that that was the case in the present
instance, because it was an interference with the rights of
a body of persons who were not represented there; but
there were representatives of that body in their Lord
ships' House.—(Hear.) He admitted that that right
was seasonable, and no one, he was sure, would wish to see
the other House deprived of it. The generality of taxes
which they imposed had to be borne by their constituents,
but in this instance the burden of the tax was thrown on
a class who were but in a very few instances repre-
sented. The representatives of that body ought to have
been consulted before they were taxed, and their assent
ought to have been obtained to the Bill. Such a course
might easily have been pursued if Ministers had at first
proceeded by resolutions instead of a Bill, and then their
Lordships might have considered that tax in all its
bearings, and it might have been discussed with the
other House ei!her in a conference, or by some other
mode.—(Hear, hear.) Then he (the Bishop of Exeter)
could have approached the subject with less danger of
that happening which he was so anxious to avoid, viz., a
collision with the other House of Parliament. Indeed he
was disposed to believe that if the subject had first been
discussed on resolutions, a perfect understanding might
have been come to, for the Noble Eail (Grey), in his able
opening, had stated that the objects he wished to attain
were, first, the removal of that tax which had led as
much as, or more than anything else to the disturbed con-
dition of Ireland; and secondly, to the improvement in
the constitution of the Church, or rather to the better
distribution of its revenues. Both those subjects were fit
for the consideration and the assent of the representatives
of the clergy. The Noble Earl had also said that he

intended to abolish the vestry cess, to augment small
livings, and to provide for building and repairing churches.
As to the former, he must trouble the House at some length.
The truth he believed to be—and he hoped to be able
to show it, from the figure given by the Noble Earl him-
self—that all the supplies he proposed to have by this
measure, would be devoured by the demands of the vestry
cess. The Noble Earl was understood to say, the charge for
the church cess would be 63,0001. ; that for the augmenta •
tion of small livings, there being 465 under 2001. a year,
and which on an average would amount to a hundred
pounds, would be 46,0001. ; for building churches, which
he proposed to augment to that sum, and free houses,
10,0001.—the whole charge amounting to 139,741/.—But
the Noble Lord bad forgotten one item, amounting to no
less, he believed, than 5,000/. a year to be calculated ful
the charge of commission.
Earl GREY did mention that there must be a charge
for commission.

The Bishop of EXETER thanked the Noble Earl fol
the interruption. That charge would be at least 5,000/. s
year.—(Hear.) Then the supply was to be from the sale
of perpetuities of land worth 500,000/. at two years put
chase, which the Noble Earl took at one million. Her:
the Noble Earl had fallen into the same error as that into
which the Noble Mover in the other House ha,
fallen—he had forgotten thit there was 100,000/.
to be removed for the rent for the Bishops. Instead
therefore, of being one million, the result would onl)
leave 800,0001., and from that 4 per cent. was
be deducted.—(Hear, hear.) The Right lievereu,

iis Oil rik
Prelate then proceeded mpg 4eneitf llrst
the remaining data which, iike"NobleseKtrl-rh
fie did not profess to stye) ''':irleirdahipti Would' Keep
,ouch confidence in the ace( • - -vateillation madedey
but he would venture t ' tets'aileSatisfied hireeelf,
not more than 24,000/. The nVetreihethe see of Derry
with some laborious calculi „once-" Ire
would have to pay in future Wattle .be' 2,-00/. a
year. The see of Armagh 4,5001. a year, and thu
the whole sum that would be in future contingent on the
lives of the present incumbents wonld be 85,000/.-
973/. per annum.—(Hear, hear.) He would now look
at what would be the operation of the change.
There was a charge of 63,211/. for church cess to be
encountered annually ; and besides that, there was a
charge of 5,000/. a year for the Commission. The
Commissionere he would set aside for the present, as he
did not wish to touch upon that at present, but only to
give their Lordship what he hoped would appear
to be a seer and honest result. The result of his cal-
culations had been that in the next fifteen years there
would be only 10,160/. to meet this church cess of
6:4,211/. He would pledge himself that there wouid
be found, at the end of 15 years, a debt of at least half a
million.—(Hear, hear.) All that could be produced
would not do more than provide for the vestry cries, nor
is much as to provide for it. That cess would devour all
the tax that was to be levied upon the clergy, the whole of
the fund made up by the suppression of livings. He hoped
that this would be taken into consideration when the
House came to discuss those parts of the Bill._(Hear.)
Now he begged leave to take some view of the Bill itself.
He would frankly remark that it was a delusion. He did
not mean to say that it would delude any one.—(Hear,
hear.) It was a series of statements which would be de-
lusive if any one could believe them.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The very title was contrary to fact, and inconsistent with
the Bill itself. It stated the purpose of the Bill to be to
alter and amend the laws relating to church property. Bit
suppose a Bill were laid on the table professing to amend
the laws of real property, and that it did no more than to
take off the legacy duty, and to levy upon the land an
impost equal in- amount, would not their Lordshipe
say thet the Bill and the title avers wholly uncoil..
nected?—(Hear.) But whatever they would say to such
a title and to such a Bill he ventured to say no man would
deny to be perfectly applicable to the Bill which he
held in his hand.—(Hear.) The first part of the Dill
said that it was expedient to provide for the abolition
of first fruits in Ireland, and to substitute an annual tax
in their stead. Now the value of the first fruits was little
more than 300/. per annum, and he thought that fear
would imagine it to be necessary to substitute for that
sum, in itself little, and less burdensome in being distri-
buted over a large number of payers, a tax of 30.0001.
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl who on the piereeing.
night had introduced this motion had referred tcrhistory, to
acts of the people, and of the Kings of England, to show
that it wee in the power of the Legislature to alter the
valuation of the first fruits or to abolish them altogether.
But the real state of the facts to which the Noble Earl
alluded was this :—The Pope, not as temporal but as
spiritual head of the Church, which the King never
claimed to be, pretended to the power of presenting to
benefices in every part of the world, in the way of sale
and purchase ; and it was on that ground be chimed the
first fruits.—(Hear, hear.) In that claim of the Pope this
country was included, but it was notorious that the House
of Commons of that day resisted the encroachment upon the
nroplerty of the English Church.—( Hear.) When after-
`ward, /ivory VIII. obtained from Parliament a grant of the
first fruits, it was not as to the head of the Church they
were given to hne'', or as otherwise having any right to
them, but solely ota temporal grounds, and expressly be-
cause it was necessary t;_eat he should have the means of
supporting the dignity of he Crown of these realms.—
(Hear. hear.)
Earl GREY explained.
The Bishop of EXETER--Toe Noble Earl said that
the grant of the first fruits to genry VIII. was a prece-
dent for the present measure. WEN, be it so. He would
agree with the Noble Earl that the Act of Henry VIII.
was a precedent for this measure.—(frear, hear.) But
since that reign, he would ask, had the precedent been
adopted ? Had any Sovereign availed himself of the power
which that Act of Parliament gave him ? Had any one
of those who followed Henry VIII. raised the valuation ?
--(Hear, hear.) He was aware that on the preceding
evening their Lordships had been told of re-valuations of
the first fruits.--(Hear.) But it was true that in the
reigns of Elizabeth, of James 1., and of Charles 1., there
was not, indeed, a revaluation but a valuation of livings,
which had not before been valued.—(Hear, beer.) [The
Right Rev. Prelate then real extracts from the Acts to
show that the valuations in those reigns were not re-
valuations, but valuations of livings not previously valued.l
From Henry VIII. downwards nothing like re-valuation
had taken place, nor bad there been enacted any thing like
an authority for such a proceeding. No Sovereign of
these realms had thought proper to avail himself of the
statute of Henry VIII. to ascertain the value of the livings,
and he thought that such a precedent ought not now to
be followed by that House.—(Hear.) He trusted that their
Lordships would reject, as it deserved, the present propo-
sition, which was offered to them upon such authority.
—(Hear.) But the Noble Earl had not been satisfied
with the precedent which be found in the Act of
13enry VIII., but he (Earl Grey) thought that he was also
warranted by the act of a venerable body of Prelates in this
realm. The Noble Earl had said that in the establishment
of the University of Durham was to be found a prece-
dent for the transferring of Church property to similar
purposes. But the Dean and Chapter of Durham had
distinctly recognised that this particular fund was appli-
cable to such purposes as those to which the Legislature
appropriated it. Now, as to the cess, under all the cir-
curnstauces it might be admitted that it was expedient to
do away with that—(Hear)--and the objects to which the
proceeds of that impost were applied were of absolute ne-
cessity and indispensable, and such as must be provided for
in some way by the law of the land. As at present levied
it was a charge upon the land teeny paid by the landlord,
although ostensibly by the occupier. In a wholesome state
of the relationship between occupant and landlord, the
latter was the actual payer ; and the landlords of Ireland,
if they conducted their intercourse with their tenants in a
just and equitable manner, were now the real payers of
that rate.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he would appeal to
their Lordships and to the Irish landlords themselves,
was it just or was it honourable to throw the burden
from them to the clergy ?--(Hear.) Had any reason
been suggested wherefore this was fair and roper?—
(Hear, hear.) The Rev. Prelate had hoped, indeed
that, amongst the Noble Lards, and many of them were
there present, there could not be found one who would
have borne the odium of being relieved from contributing
to those necessary expanses by throwing the burden upon
that most useful and meritorious body of men, the cler-
gymen of Ireland..—(Hear.) He should have thought
that, if any thing could add to the pain which be believed
those Noble Lords must have felt in making this invasion
upon the property of the Church, amongst all considera-
tions he would have thought this, to them, the most pain-
ful, that they were themselves benefitted by the spoliation.
—(Hear.) When be beard a Noble Marquis say on the
preceding evening that, as a landlord, he did hope that
the burden would be so shifted, he confessed he was sur-
prised. Considering that it was as a landlord the Noble
Marquis would find advantage to himself in this measure,
the Right Rev. Prelate would have hoped that he (the
Noble Marquis) would have scorned to put into his pocket
the few miserable pence which the transfer might save him,
at the expense of that exemplary and suffering body of men,
who were, many of them, now literally without a home.
He would assure the Noble Marquis that he was far from
supposing that he (Lord Westmeath) was actuated by any
sordid motives. Another Noble Marquis, a Member of
the Cabinet, who must join in the compunction of the
Irish landlords who felt themselves compelled to support
this measure of relief to them at the expense of the clergy
—a Noble Lord of whom not the bitterest enemy of his
fame, iferuemy he had, could say a word in disparagement,
had supported the Bill; but most assuredly he would la-
ment the consequences which must ensue, He (the Rev.
Prelate) would refer the Noble Marquis to the opinion of a
gentleman. Mr. Leslie Foster (on whose authority even the
Noble Lord who broughtin the Bill placed great reliance)bad
testified that the clergy were amongst the greatest benetac-
tors of Ireland. It was true, indeed, that they bad been
differently spoken of by another authority, Dr. Doyle,
who bad taken upon him to describe them as devouring
the wealth of the land.—(The Rev. Prelate then read an
extract of great length from the writings of Father
O'Leary, in which the clergy of the Established Church
were eulogised as the greatest benefactors of the country,
thwehilehe
and the protectors of the people against the oppressions
and exactions of their landlords.) The Noble Earl (Grey)
would not have gone so far in attributing so many of the
evils of Ireland to the vestry cess if be bad read the in.
of the
in-
quiry which took place before Committees of the House
of Commons. The Noble Earl attributed the necessity
Catholic
wt etnhaantt si
t;
was the
Let their Lordships, then, see how the case really stood.
He admitted the evil of the vestry cess, as borne by the
oagfittabteioCnsoeracnidve
dßi.cilol,ntewnhticoch
epda.sisoendedi
bi ibis
tShees svieosnt,r
vestry
to
etshse.
prin-
cipal cause, or even one of the principal causes,
irritation in Ireland. He thought he could produce satin_
factory evidence to prove this. Less than a year ago, the
other House of Parliament had a
report presented to
poorer class
the evilof bße7oaunl dCnaot ht

them as to the causes of the then existing disturbances,
and •he leg al remedies which it was desirable might be
applied for the suppression of them. For the suppression
of the disturbances, the Committee recommended nightly
watches, and gave it as their opinion that an increased
rissour of the law would not effect the object. They then
went on to state the causes of the evil, and the remedies to be
applied. The first cause was the removal of tenants from
their old holdings. This they stated as the main cau.e—
(Hear, hear)—the hardship arising from driving out
tenants from their holdings in a country where, from the
amount of the population, the competition for land was
very great. The second cause was the extent of vagrancy
and mendicity, and the immoderate use of spiri•uous
liquors. Here there was not a word about the vestry
cess, and therefore so late even as August last, when that
report was preeented, no part of the distractions and
disturbances of Ireland were attributed to the stese—
(Hear, hear)—and in truth the amount was so trifling as
to be utterly inadequate to account for the evil. He was
sorry he did not see the Noble Duke in his place, as he
would in that ease venture to suggest to him what he had
no doubt, from the character of the Noble Duke, be would
not be unwilling to concur in, that it would be much
better, and more consonant with justice, to fix his charge
upon the land than to call upon the impoverish: d clergy
of Ireland to pay it.—(He-tr.) The next authority to
which he should refer was that of Dr. Murray, the Ro-
man Catholic Archbishop of Dublin. In his examination
he stated that, if the cess was charged on the landlords,
then, in his opinion, the dissatisfaction would cease.
This evidence, it was true, was given seven years ago, but
that made no difference. In this as in all other cases
right and duty survived the lapse of time. He would
next quote the testimony of Mr. O'Connell. He Was
asked whether, if Roman Catholics were allowed to vote
in vestries, there would be any difficulty thus put in the
way of building and repairing churches? He said he
thought no fair case would be resisted ; he was deeply
convinced it weuld not. Where there were Protestants
he thought a place of worship should be erected for
them as convenient as possible, In 1830 a Select Com-
mittee was appointed to inquire into the state of the poor
in Ireland, and the report they made was founder: upon a
great variety of evidence. They stated that the existing
difficulties of Ireland were rather incidental, arising from
a change from one state of things to another. What were
the remedies they proposed ? The first evil to which
they alluded was the Grand Jtity cess, which they stated
to have risen from st.SIIITI of 470 106/. to 800,0001., and
was the heaviest burden pressing on the people. Now
the vestry cm was not more than the one-twelfth of the
Grand Jury grievance. It was a burden borne by tenants,
by the poorest class of cottiers, and was expended in im-
provements in which these very Grand Jurors who im
posed it were interested, in roads and other matters tend-
ing to the permanent improvement of their land. The
Committee recommended that the occupying tenants
sboul ihe relieved from this assessment altogether. What
was the result? Three years had elapsed, and yet nothing
had been done.—(Hear, hear.) A Bill, be believed, was
now on the table of the other House ; but three whole
years were suffered to elapse without affording any relief
from this pressing evil.—( Hear, hear.) He might also
refer to the report of the Committee which sat in 1827.
This Committee recommended a series of remedies for the
relief of Ireland, and the thirteenth of these remedies was
to amend the laws respecting vestry cess, and to relieve
the occupying tenant from the burden of this payment,
and to throw it upon the landlord. Now who were the
members of this Committee? It was named by Mr. S.
Rice, who was Chairman. The following were seine of
the members, he would not name tive whole:—Sir J.
Newport, Lord Milton, Mr. Lambe Sir H. Parnell, Lord
Althorp, Mr. C. Grant, and Lord J. Russell, acme,
as their Lordships might see, members of the pre-
. sent Cabinet; Mr. O'Connell, who was not yet a mem-
ber of the Cahinet—(A laugh)—Lord Palmerston,
and Mr. Stanley, who claimed to be considered as the
main patron of the proposal for this alteration. Three
years back a Committee, of which, with two exceptions,
all the Members of the present Cabinet formed a part,
recommended that the vestry cess should be thrown upon
the landlords, and now this very Cabinet came forward
with a proposal to impose it upon the clergy, not upon
the land —(Ct eers from the Opposition benches.) How
was this to he accounted for? Were they to be looked
upon as spoiled children of fortune, who, as members of a
Committee, could take up one toy and throw it away when
they became Ministers ?—(Cheers.) If they were indeed
the spoiled children of fortune, would their Lordships be
such children as to accept a measure of this kind from
them ?—(Hear, hear.) This Bill, they were told, con-
templated other objects besides the cess, to which the
fund would be applied, and among the rest the augmen-
tation of small livings. This was a mere delusion.
There would be no funds for any other purpose ; the
whole would be exhausted by the cess. There was,
however, another source from which it was proposed to
augment the fund ; that was, the suppression of bishop-
rics. It had often been asserted that the lands of the
Protestant Church of Ireland were transferred from the
Roman Catholic to the Protestant Bishops by Act of
Parliament. Now the fact was that no such transfer
was ever made. (The Right Reverend Prelate here
read an extract from the works of Jeremy Taylor in
confirmation of this view of the case.) Not only in the
north of Ireland, but also in many parts of the
south, the Bishops' lands were not transferred from
the Roman Catholic to the Protestant Church.
They were endowed by a Protestant King. This was
effected in various dioceses of the south of Ireland
(the Right Reverend Prelate mentioned the t;iocesEs of
Limerick, Clcnfert, and others) by the Act of the 13th and
14th of Charles 11., the Act of Settlement. Now the
101st clause of this Act contained a provision for the die.
posal and settlement of a very extensive property, in
which not the Church, but a layman, was interested.
The proviso was this :—" Provided always that all those
lands conferred on Sir William Petty be held by him and
his heirs for ever." The Noble Marquis (Lansdowne)
therefore, who gave his support to this measure, to this
most unjust seizure of church lands, did himself hell ex-
tensive property in Ireland under the very same species of
tenure. He would not presume to admonish the Noble
Marquis, but would venture to throw out a suggestion by
which he might profit, if it was indeed meant that the
Bill should pass into a law. Did he poaseas lands under a
similar tenure he would forthwith prove, d to Ireland and
sell such lands, otherwise he might depend upon it they
would very soon share the same fate as the Bishops'
lands.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.) It was
only twelve months hack that Mr. O'Connell predicted
the destruction of church rate and church cess. In a
letter of his, dated July 16th, he said, " My plan em-
bract s, first, extinction of tithe and cess ; at condly, a
charitable fund for the relief of the poor; thirdly, a fund
for the maintenance of the Protestant Church ; fourthly,
the providing of glebe-houses for the clergy; and fifthly, a
domestic Legislature." The first p art of the plan was
now in progress, and when the fifth would come to pass
God only knew.—( Hear.) There were other grave con-
siderations independent of those" of a financial nature
connected with the proposed reduction in the number
of Bishops.—s Hear, hear.) The language of the Bill
was very modest. It said merely that the present number
of Bishops might be conveniently reduced. Conveniently
to whom? Not to the Irish Bishop., not to the Church
of Ireland, not to the Protestants of England or Ireland.
It would satisfy only a greedy and clamourous faction who
were on'y encouraged to further demands by yielding to
their menaces and feeding their rapacity.—(Chet re.)
The Noble Earl (Grey) in his speech last night stated
various grounds in support of the reduction. The first
was the great disproportion between the number of
Bishops in both countries and the extent of superfices.
The disproportion in point of superfices between Eng-
land and Ireland was allowed to be as about eighteen to
thirty. It was true that in this respect there was a
great difference. But it might be said that the dispro-
portion arose as well from having too few in England, as
from having too many in Ireland. The Noble Earl said
he never heard a complaint made that the number was
too few in England. Now he not only heard frequently
but read of such complaints. In the beginning of the
Re formation steps were taken to augment the number
of Bishops in England, and one of the reasons as-
signed by Henry the Eighth for seizing upon the al bey
lands was to make provision for the erection of
sixteen additional bishoprics.—(Hear, hear.) However,
not more than six new ones were erected. Of these
Westminster was one, but it was afterwards surrendered,
the revenues not being sufficient to maintain a Bishop.
A reserve was made of a portion of these revenues to re.
pair the church of St. Paul, and hence came the saying
of " robbing Peter to pay Paul." Cranmer recommended
an augmentation of sixteen in the number of Bishops, and
had this been done, the number would be 37 in England
to 12 in Ireland, and the proportion as related to super..
fices would then be right to a fraction. The Noble Earl,
however, argued the question on the relative amount of
population, and expressed his surprise that there should
be 22 Bishops to attend to the spiritual wants of only
one million of persons in Ireland of the Established
Church, while the number was only 26 in England for a
Protestant population of eight millions. The 'Stehle
Marquis said he was determined to rescue the Church
from such a scandal. The Noble Marquis might leave
rescued his mind from the pain of this scandal merely by
opesing his 'maser-break. The Protestant clergy of
Ireland_ were, he believed, more numerous than those of

the Roman Catholic persuasion—the latter being, accor-
ding to Mr. Blake and Mr. Foster, one thousand parish
priests, and about the same number of curates. It should
be recollected that a Protestant Bishop was bound to
devote his spiritual care to all residing within his diocese,
whether of his own communion or not, whether Roman
Catholics or Protestants. Dr. Newland some years hack
published a defence of the Protestant Church of Ireland, in
which he said that the duties of an Irish Protestant Bishop
were sufficient to engross his whole time; he knew nne
who devoted seven or eight hours of each 'day to them.
Now this very Prelate to whom Dr. Newland alluded
would, by the present Bill, have the superintendence
of another diocese transferred to him. He really felt
ashamed to croupy so much of their Lordships' time, belt
he ventured to think the importance of the stbject would
plead his excuse, and that what ho read from others
would make their Lordships 'endure what he said from
himself. He would theta say that if none of the reason!
which he had urged were sufficient to justify and ev-eri de-
mand the eontinuance of the present number -0T Bishops
in Ireland, as in every respect right and wise for the pro-
per constitution of the Church rued the due administration
of its sacred function., theta was one reason still remain-
ing which ought not) and which could not, be regartiecl by
their Lordships with any feeling but that of tae deepest
interest and concern—he meant the consideration of what
would be and what must be the Feelings of the great body
of the Protestants and Roman Catholics in Ireland, if
their Lordships eleould think fit to pass this Bill, and if it
should ultimately become law. Was it possible tbtt they
would do otherwise than regard Protestantism as having
lost all confidence, favour, and support in this House and
in Parliament ?—(Loud cheers from the Opposition
benches.) Was it possible that they could consider
that their Lordships any longer regarded their Church
as an object worthy of their highest respect and
firmest support ?—.( Hear, hear.) It was very remarkable
that at this very time, as he need not tell their Lordships,
the feeling of the Roman Catholics in that country was
very different from what it was wont to be. They now
exhibited a port, and assumed a tone of defiance unknown
a few years ago. It was not long since that they did not
even call their community in that country a Church.
They spoke of their prelates as of the Roman Catholic
communion in Ireland. He need not tell their Lordships
that all that was now very much changed. Not only did
they call their communion the "Roman Catholic Church
in Ireland," but they called it "The Church in Ireland."
Dr. Doyle, in a published letter to a Nohh' Lord who was
not now in his place, distinctly called the Roman Catholic
communion "The Church ;" and he spoke of the Bishops
of the Protestant Church as being no Bishops at alk—as
Bishops, in short, merely in name, saying that he was
willing to recognise the title because his Majesty was at
perfect liberty to give the title of I3ishop to any man ;
indeed the very title of Bishop had been conferred by
heathen Sovereigns upon heathens, and therefore in that
sense he was willing to ackowledge it, but only in that
sense. Another very remarkable thing had textured, and
of a more grave and serious nature than this declaration
of Dr. Doyle : he meant the circurnstance of a class book
used at the College of Mayntrth, which college was main-
tained at the expense of the Protestants, being dedicated
to whom ? "To the Most Reverend Father in God, Pa-
trick Curtis. Archbishop of Armagh, and Primate of all Ire-
land." Ile might be permitted to say that this did not rest
.itself merely in words, hut showed itself in conduct. He
begged to refer their Lordships to part of the testimony of
James Latter, Esq.;given in the report of the Committee last
year on the state of Ireland. He was a gentleman very
liberal in his politics, and in his evidence suggested grounds
of erClise for the conduct of the Priests ; but when he
eras asked " whether, upon the whole, he thought the
conduct of the Priests in any way tended to provoke or
lead to the disturbance of the peace of the country ?" his
answer was, " I think their conduct, generally, has
tended to promote a very great degree of excitement and
agitation." He was asked how long since he had ob-
served that to be the case ? and he answered, " It existed
in some when I first came into the country; but it has
increased very much of late, especially since Catholic
emancipation was granted ?" " Do you think since then
that the Priests have taken a more active part in politics
than before ?" " Decidedly." "Do you think that
has led to the increase of excitement which you have
observed ?" " Most certainly." So much for the con.
duct of the Roman Catholic c'ergy generally. A parish
Priest, by the name of Burke, at Castlepollard, had been
the cause of a most extraordinary degree of excitement in
Ireland. This man, it appeared, had addressed his flock
from the altar—for the altar was a place whence the
Priests of Ireland were in the habit of asserting those
whom they regarded as enemies, and of denouncing them
to the vengeance of their deluded flock--the altar where
the people believed their God himself was corporeally pre-
sent—from that altar this Priest was in the habit of de-
nouncing to the execration and hostility of his bearers
all the Protestant gentry of the neighbourhood, and par-
ticularly those concerned in the management of the
estates of the Noble Duke he now saw in his place. In
consequence of that Priest's denunciation the life of the
agent of the Noble Duke was threatened ; but providen-
tially he escaped. It appeared that the language of this
Priest was so inflammatory that it was found necessary to
report him to the Government. Their Lordships were
aware that by a very proper regulation an officer always
attended those soldiers who were Roman Catholics to
the Roman Catholic chapels. It happened that
when stationed at Castlepollard Ensign Mansell attended
at the chapel where this Mr. Burke preached, and ad•
dressed the people in his usual violent manner, and acted
with great impropriety against Ensign Mansell. Mr.
Burke was examined before the Committee as to that
point, and was asked, " Do you recollect having shown
any disrespect in your manner to Ensign Mansell ?"
"No ; Ido not." "Do you recollect using in his pre-
sence on the Sunday he went to your chapel in charge of
the soldiers, words to this effect—' Boys, the tottering
fabric of the heretics is falling around us, while the Catho-
lic religion is rising in glory every day. Ireland was once
Catholic ; boys, it shall be Catholic again ?' " He an-
swered, " The word 'Boys' I,did not use ; I said that the
Protestant church was falling, whilst the Catholic church
was rising in glory, certainly." "On the next Sunday
do you recollect addressing the people in these words :
• Boys ! I shall want you to attend me here half err hour
after duty. Yes, we shall follow it up, and see if
.the
police of Ireland are to trample upon the people?, He
answered, " I believe I did ; but I did not use the word
Boys.' "—(Laughter.) But this conduct was not con-
fined to the priests; it extended to the Roman Catholic
hierarchy. It happened, a very few weeks ago, a gentle.
man put into ,his hand a newspaper, called the Bally-
mahon Independent, in which a letter appeared addressed
to the editor, informing him that the writer had attended
yesterday a Catholic place of worship, where Dr. M'Cabe
preached, and was most violent in his abuse of the Esta•
Wished Church, denouncing it as oppressive to the people
and the source of every evil to Ireland. In fact his sermon
was a violent tirade against the Church and the Govern•
ment, and an appeal t '‘e worst passions of the people,
already too much infl• .nd hostile to the law of the
country. At the commee ement of the sermon, the mili-
tary were sent out of the chapel, but the writer asked why
the police were suffered to remain. This being an anony-
mous communication, he told his Hon. Friend that it was
quite impossible to make use of it, and that gentleman
undertook to ascertain whether the facts;were such as were
related by this writer. His Hon. Friend had since put
into his hands a letter which he (the Bishop of Exeter)
had full permission to use, and he was very ready to put
it into the bands of the Noble Secretary of the Home De-
partment, if that Noble Lord thought it worth attending
to. This letter, which was from a highly respectable indi.
vidual, stated that " Dr. M'Cabe preached a most violent
influence
the on that occasion, admirably adapted to
the passions of his hearers. He attacked the Church, the
Government, the magistracy, and the constabulary; in
fact, every thing that tended to the preservation of the
peace and good order of society. He
if that
enjoined union
among the Roman Catholics, and promised that,
were the case, in three months they would be released
from the constables, and have every thing their own
way. He rejoiced greatly at the destruction of our
Church, and the reduction of our Bishops—(Hear, hear)—
who being, he said, appointed by the Government, might,
by the Government, be done away, but that over his
order Government had no control, because they had a
higher appointment than that of man." In order to give
full effect to that declaration, it was right to say that Dr.
M'Cabe, who so preached, and so excited the people to
the destruction of every thing valuable in his country, and
especially of that church which it was their Lordships'
duty to uphold, would, if this Bill should take effect, be
the Bishop of Killala, because our Bishop would cease to
bear that name, the bishopric of Killala being one of
those bishoprics which were to merge in another see. He
took the liberty of addressing himself to those of his Right
Rev. Brethren, if any there were, who intended to vote
for this Bill, and thereby to sanction its principles, and
especially that most important part of it which united
certain bishoprics, and forced those who had even pro-
tested against the Bill to be Bishops whether they would
or not ; he would, he said, ask his Right Rev. Brethren
to tell him upon what Christian doctrine or Christian
principle it was that such a right of making Bishops ex-
isted ? My Lords, I deny (said the Right Reverend
Prelate) your right to do it: nay, I deny your power.—
(Cheers from the Opposition benches.) I deny that there
a any human authority whatsoever that can do it. 1

entreat my Right Reverend Brethren to contradict me
if I am wrong ; but I deny your power to enforce a
man to be a Bishop against his will _.(Laughter from the
Ministerial benches, and cheers from the Opposition side.)
I am not at all surprised at the mirth of Noble Lords.
It is quite natural and quite right that persons should in-
dulge in a laugh at that which they have treated with so
much levity..-..(Loud cheers.) I repeat what I say—
(Hee.r, bear)—whether it excites a Irugh or not, you have
not the right, my Lords, and you have not the power, to
do what you have proposed to do, namely, to enforce the
Bishop of A. to be Bishop of B. also, whether he will or
not.—(Cheets.) Some years ago a motion was made
embodying in a resolution something very similar to wha't
was embodied in this Bill, and that rreastre was then de.
scribed in the following manntr'.—" If it were meant as a
measure of conciliation he (the Speaker, who was a most
distinguished Member of the other House) would ask tore
Ilotee what single advan'age it was calculated to give to the
Catholics of Ireland ? But he beliered that it was an at-
tack made on the EstablieheA Church in a point where
it was supposed to be most vulnerable, under the
specious pt•itext of affording relief to Ireland. It
was at present only proposed to clip the rylngs of
the church, and to exhibit her in a mutilated condi-
tion to her rival." Was it pnstitte that a description
could be more appropriatet.y applied to the present mea•
sure ? It wee Wry right that the individual who gave
that titecliption of the former motion should also take part
upon this. Yes ! it was the same Right Hon. Gentle-
man who said that he had been the principal stttl'o'r and
framer of this Bill, and who claimed tb'e full share of
responsibility in bringing forward This Bill. It was be
who, in 1824, when that ticsolution was moved, described
it as a measure proposed "to clip the wings of the
Church) and exhibit her in a mutilated condition to her
tivai." He was very well aware that the Right Hon:
Gentleman had since given a different opinion; tut in
the conflicting authority afforded by that Right lion. Gen-
tleman he certainly paid much mote attention to his earlier
opinions. He saw in them then the authority of a young
man of high pro:hist and of great public and private
virtue. Undeabtedly he was now of great public and
hrivaro virtue, but at that time his high morality was
fresh from those generons streams whence lie derived his
acquirements; he had not then bowed his lofty spirit to
the level of more ordinary mind! ; he had not then
accustomed himself to brook tlie taunts and insults of
those whom be now fohnd by bitter experience that no-
thing he could do, no condescensions to which he could
Stoop) could conciliate or make his friends. Those who
engaged in such a course, who sought to convert enemies
by concessions into friends, would always 6nd them to be
such as the arch agitator of Ireland bad been to his Ma-
jesty's Ministers. He was their enchanter—he was their
Prospero; and whether at one time he assumed towards
them the gentle tone of an Ariel, or at other times used the
harsh and sullen and grumbling language of a Caliban, yet
still they were always sure in the end to become his vic-
tims. He would endeavour to abridge what he wished to
say upon another very important topic, be meant the Com-
mission, in which they savd things that were perfectly new
—en Ecclesiastical Board formed not merely of spiritual
but also of lay men. He thought it very probable that the
Crown would appoint laymen in those cases where the ap-
pointments were left to its discretion ; and thus laymen
would be intrusted to appoint persons to the cure of souls,
an act completely and purely of spiritual jurisdiction. That
Bishops should be bound to obey the command of lay com-
missioners (for if commanded he supposed they would be
bound to obey) to appoint some neighbouring clergyman
in certain cases to have the cure of souls, was not only
without example but contrary to all principle. If their
Lordships looked at it in a lower sense, and in a more
temporal view, he should submit to them whether there
was ever an instance of a perpetual corporation created in
which no less than eight out of eleven members were ab-
solutely removeable at pleasure ?—(Hear.) Was ever such
a thing before heard of? But that was a matter of such
trifling importance, in comparison with the rest, that he
would not waste their Lordships' time by dwelling upon it.
—(Hear.) What most surprised him, perhaps, in the
whole affair was the quarter from which this Bill hail
proceeded : he meant in reference to what bad been said
in that quarter in former rirn,s.—(Hear.) Their Lord-
ships must have borne in mind that during the lengthened
discussions on that measure which ended in removing the
disabilities under which the Roman Catholics laboured, the
advocates of that measure, more especially one of the ablest,
most zealous, and most consistent advocates of it—the
Noble Earl now at the head of his Majesty's Government
—constantly urged as the principal reason for promoting
that measure that it must tend to increase Protestantism

in Ireland; that it would remove the great weight that
now pressed down the spring of Protestantism, and which,
as soon „a that was removed, would rise up with a force
that it would be impossible for the mere doctrines of Po-
pery to oppose. At the same time there were divers

Noble Lords who repeatedly urged that it was impossible
Roman Catholics could look to the destruction of the
Protestant Establishment or be hostile to it; at least,
if it were possible, still, by removing their complaints,
it was the only way of conciliating them as enemies,
and, in fact, making them friends; but at all events
it was supposed that to adopt that measure it would
secure the undivided co-operation of all Protestants
in our favour, for no Protestant, if once that measure
of relief should be granted, would dare in decency
to be the enemy of the Roman Catholics. He held
in his hand a printed letter of a Noble Baron, written
with great vigour and eloquence, in which the Noble Lord
stated that, if that boon, emancipation, were granted to
the Catholics, he should certainly give his warmest support
to the Established Church in Ireland ; and that as long as
there was a prospect of eff: cting a real as well asa nominal
union between the Catholics and Protestants of that country,
by admitting the Catholics to enjoy the rights of the Con-
stitution, so long he was ready to maintain the Protestant
Irish Church and her enormous revenues. " I call, then,
upon the Noble Baron," said the Right Rev. Prelate,
"to fulfil that pledge. No doubt he will. He must
either show that this Bill does not affect the revenues of
the Church, or he must resist its being passed into a law."
--(Cheers.) With respect to the amount of that revenue
it was very justly said by the Noble Lord who introduced
this Bill into the other House that there had been the
greatest misconception. It was a fact that the annual in-
come of the Established Church in Ireland was not
300,000/. Another Noble Lord of great and acknow-
ledged talent, the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, spoke much
of the high honour and probity of the great body of the
Roman Catholics, who were, he said, excluded from the
privileges of the Constitution, because they conscientiously
refused to take the oath then required to be taken before
admission to place or Parliament. By the Bill then
proposed (this was in 1821) the Roman Catholics
were required to swear that they would not use
their privileges to disturb or in any way weaken the
Protestant Establishment. The Noble and Learned
Lord on that occasion said he could not understand what
was meant by saying that you believed a man was able
to exercise all the duties of life, and yet you would not
believe him on his oath ; they were willing to bind them-
selves by a solemn oath not to use their privileges for the
purpose of doing directly or indirectly any thing that
should affect the stability of the Protestant Church. The
Protestant Establishment in Ireland (continued the Noble
and Learned Lord) was indissolubly bound up with the
Establishment in England—(Hear, hear)—and neither

the Catholics of England nor Ireland, he would take upon
himself to say, had any such extravagant notion as that of
destroying those Establishments, which could not be ac-
complished without heaving the British empire to its
centre; nor did it enter the imagination of any man to at-
tempt so impracticable a scheme. The N,ble and Learned
Lord continued to say that the Roman Catholics knew
that the Protestant established religion in England was, in
Ireland, established at the Reformation, confirmed at the
Revolution, and perpetually incorporated at the Union ;
that it formed part of the fundamental and unalterable—
(Hear, hear)—law of the empire. He considered the pos-
sessions of the Protestant clergy were their absolute pro-
perty, as certainly and securely as the private possessions
of any individual; that he was obliged by the oath he had
taken to continue that establishment, and which, so far
from considering himself under any obligation to sub-
vert, he held himself by the most solemn ties bound
as a member of society, as a man, a citizen, and a
Christian, to resist all attempts to overthrow. He was
not at all surprised that such should be the language of
the Noble and Learned Lord, because, warm and ardent
as it was, it proceeded from a mind rich in learning, and
able to bring forth on all oocasions words that did justice
to his own high conceptions. When he looked at the
oath taken by the Roman Catholics, he was not surprised
that the Noble and Learned Lord, considering them as
honest men, should say for them all that he had said.
They now spoke as if they thought the interfering with
the Protestant revenue was not interfering with the
establishment; and that if they did not introduce a law
to interfere with the articles or ritual of the Church they
Thad done all that was required by their oath, though it
was absolutely impossible that they could he ignorant
that that oath was devised and drawn up with the full
intention to bind them to behave not only with forbear•
once, but with entire kindness towards the Established
Church. It was too well known that the obligation of an
oath in Ireland was held to be very slight upon the con-
sciences of the people. The Right Rev. Prelate then
adverted to the mischievous power exercised by the Ca-
tholic clergy over the minds of the people of that country,

and referred to the celebrated pastoral letters of Dr.
Doyle, in order to show the artful manner in which the
passions of the deluded people of Ireland were ex-
cited and rendered turbulent for the purposes of evil
to the country. He then went on to say that
these people were wicked, and, further, that their
resistance to all-powerful oppression was wicked and
vain. It was wicked because it confirmed the power
of the oppressor, and vain because no effort of a dis-
organized rabble could he productive of success, He (the
Bishop of Exeter) would not go futthet• with these et-
tracts, but he v?ould beg to remind their Lordships that
this letter *as one in which Dr. Doyle undertook to teach
the whole people of Ireland that resistance to the law of
tithes was not criminal ; tbat it was, in fact, a penal
law ; and that submission to a penal law was all that was
required, at id he quoted the authority to justify that opi-
nion. Sir Hussey Vivian had said, in his testimony be-
fore the House of Commons, in offering an opinion on the
state of Ireland, that he begged to notice the e::tt•aordinary
carelessness of human life which aistinguished the charac-
ter of the people; and that he had endeavoured to find
ort froth what means it arose that men who appeared to
be so kind in their disposition as the lower classes in Ire-
land should exhibit so little reluctance to destroy their
fellow creatures ; that he had stated this fact to the Roman
Catholic clergy, and had expressed his astonishment that
they, who had so much influence, did not prevent this;
but that neither 'they nor any other persons pretended to
account for this. Again, there was the evidence of
another person—namely, that of John Burn (as we un-
derstood), of the city of Cork, a Dissenting Minister, who,
having sworn to his evidence, felt it necessary to correct
or enlarge upon the testimony which he bad given the day
before in respect to the state of Catholicism in Ireland.
The evidence of the Dissenting Clergyman to which he had
allttded, upon his being recalled to enlarge or correct the evi-
dence which he had given on a previous day, stated that the
view which he had then given was the truth, but not the
whole truth, and that he wished to add a few words upon the
influence of the Roman Catholic religion. On the subject
of school books he had stated that books subversive of the
very first principles of morality and religion were known
by the Roman Catholic priesthood to be in circulation,
though they might prevent that circulation, as they did
i❑ a great degree the circulation of the Scriptures, but
that they had never attempted to do this ; and he (ale
witness) would mention one book particularly, called

" The Cord of St. Francis " (as we understood), which
contained acts of charity, prescribed certain forme, and
referred more particularly to the doctrine of purgatory,
which formed so essential a consideration with the lower

orders of Roman Catholics, to the belief in which doc-
trine was to be ascribed the fact that no Roman Catholic

entertained any dread of final perdition. He (the witness)
had spoken frequently with Roman Catholics upon this
subject, and had never found one who supposed he should
go to hell. The Right Rev. Prelate then proceeded to
detail the remainder of the evidence which related to pur-
gatory and absolution, and to the belief that future punish-
ment would be only temporary, to which doctrine was to
he attributed the most injurious effects on the feelings of
the peop'e. The evidence further stated that to the doc-
trine of, and belief in, absolution was owing the feeling
which went to destroy the fear of future punishment. The
witness stated that he found this to be generally the case,
and that where persons were condemned by the Courts of
Justice they seldom showed any feeling of their situation ;
that this arose from the convictionof the efficacy o f absolution;
which they believed would do everything ; that he had seen
thirty-five individuals sentenced to deatb,and could not per-
ceive the betrayal of any emotion on their parts. Now
he (the Bishop of Exeter) would put it even on no higher
grounds than that of human legislation, looking merely to
the good of marl in this world, whether it was not the
bounden duty of all intrusted with any share in the
Legislature to struggle to resist the introduction of such
doctrines, and to lessen the authority of such teachers as
those which he had quoted. This consideration brought
him to the last topic, which was one of a grave nature.
It was a duty upon them all to uphold the Protestant
religion, and it was especially their bounden duty as
Legislators in this Protestant nation to see what obliga-
tions the Sovereign had undertaken. If unhappily that
illustrious individual who would have to decide the point
for himself, and who their Lordships were bound to be-
lieve would decide upon the dictates of his own conscience,
should sanction this measure, it was still the duty of their
Lordships, as Members of that House, to bear in mind
what was their duty in respect to that oath in tendering
to his Majesty a Bill for his approbation ; and to abstain
entirely from pressing on, or even offering to, the accep-
tance of his Majesty any measure which they did not think
was in full accordance with those great obligations which
the Sovereign had undertaken at the coronation. If they
thought the tendency of any measure was to shake the
security of the Protestant Established Church of this country,
they ought above all to maintain the influence of the Protes-
tant religion. If they thought that any measure which was
brought before them could violate that which his Majesty had
sworn to maintain inviolate, namely, the present settle-
ment of the Church in Ireland, with all the doctrines,
discipline, and government thereof, he thought no one
would say that it was not their Lordships' duty to abstain
from voting for this measure. He had no hesitation in
saying that this was his own opinion. But if the measure
should hereafter receive the Royal assent he should be en-
tirely convinced that the Royal assent, had been given from
the most conscientious feelings. A difference had been
drawn as between the legislative power of the Sovereign.
Now it would be in the recollection of their Lordships
that the Noble Earl considered the question of the coro-
nation oath as one to be kept quite out of thought in any
matter connected with the Royal assent to any Bill passed
in that House not affecting his Majesty as sitting in his
legislative capacity in the House of Peers, with his legis
lative body around him. Now he had hoped the Noble
Earl would have stated what these unanswerable reasons
were, because, as he had stated them to be unanswerable,
he (the Bishop of Exeter) was quite sure the Noble Earl
was not afraid of bringing three reasons forward if he
knew them to be unanswerable.—(Earl Grey here ex-
pressed his dissent from this latter statement.) The
Bishop of Exeter continued :—He certainly had not
caught the qualification to this assertion ; be certainly

l'ad understood the Noble Earl to have used the terrii

" unanswerab'e ;" but, however, he would say no more
upon that subject. Not having, at any rate, these argu-
ments to support him which be had expected, because
the Noble Earl would have the opportunity to reply,
be (the Bishop of Exeter) was at a loss to know
what arguments to address himself to. It was very true
that the Noble Earl on a former occasion had spoken on

this subject, and he had referred to the authorities which
they ordinarily had for information for what had passed in
former Parliaments. The Noble Earl, on the sth of April,
1829, did not attempt to show that the coronation oath
should be binding on the King in his legislative capacity
with respect to the Church ; but he then stated that there
was a proviso in the corenatio❑ oath which gave rise at
one time to an opinion that the King was limited i❑ his
legislative capacity with respect to the Church, and a Bill
was introduced for the purpose of declaring the contrary.
But the conclusion to which he (the Bishop of Exeter)
came to was very different. It was not supposed that any
thing which had occurred would go to impair the legisla-
tive power of that House, but that was the utmost to which
the argument had been applied. The Right Rev. Prelate
proceeded, after a few observations, to quote the opinion of
Lord Somers upon this point. But still, looking to those
authorities, he could not think that the language of such
men was to be considered as conclusive in law ; and so far
from it, be held that the language of debaters on either
side was not to be taken ; and whatever might have been
the opinion of the Lower House, it did not go to show the
authority of their Lordships' House. But an authority
f 0 which the Noble Earl had upon this occasion alluded,
was the fact of a letter having been written by Lord
Yester, the second Marquis of Tweedale, to his father,
dated in April, 1769, stating that the King had himself
declared in Council that the sense in which he under-
stood the coronation oath in respect to his executive
capacity was, that it bound him to maintain the Church
as by law established, but did not limit him from
reserving to the Legislature the power to make what alte-
rations they might hereafter think fit. Now he (the
Bishop of Exeter) wondered that so much importance
had been attached to this document; and he would put it
to their Lordships whether, if any of their sons chose to
give their fathers intelligence of the rumours of the day,
they would think such a communication an authority
upo❑ a grave question of law ? Would they consider it
as the authority of the King in Council because a rumour
were picked up perhaps in St. James's-street ? If the
communication were made, was it the more credible be-
cause it had occurred 150 years ago, than it would be if
it bad been told only yesterday? And surely ❑one of their
Lordships would ascribe much importance at the present
time to this document. h considering whether the
coronation oath was binding on the Sovereign, it was ne-
c•essary first to consider whether this Constitution and the
laws of the country recognised the distinction, in the
person of the King, of a legislative and an executive
power, and whether he was or was not bound by the co-
ronation oath in those separate characters. He held that
every notion and intentio❑ of a monarchy implied that the
whole Government was in the King; and that by
limited monarchy the King should be limited according
to the provisions of the State or Constitution over which
he should preside. I❑ this country their Lordships knew
tout the Government was limited, he might say in every

particular, without exception ; that the King, as King,
could do nothing without the aid of his advisers in the
highest point of duty in legislating for the country. By
the advice of his Ministers he acted, while the Parlia-
ment settled what should be the laws of the land.
—(Hear, Lear.) He held that Parliament was sitting
there to make laws, as the Privy Council did when they
issued Proclamations, and he would say that the authority
attaching to all their proceedings, must be held in
that light. Therefore, to say that they could separate the
character of the Sovereign by placing him in two capa-
cities, by one of which they bound him while by the other
they loosened him, was an argument which could not by
possibility hold good. It was a remarkable fact in the
history of the Constitution of the country that a detailed
account of it was to be found at the early period of King
Edward the Confessor, in which reign many of our laws
were originated. With Edward the Confessor originated
the bot•obation oath, which then stated that it was the
duty of the King to fear God and love him above all
things, and to defend against all injury the Holy Church ;
to grant good laws, and to see that they were properly
constituted, but to expunge bad laws; to do right judg-
ment in kingdom, &c. &c. Thus it was clear that,
according to the laws of 'Edward the Confessor, the
coronation oath was originated. The King was bound to
make good laws. Perhaps some of their Lordships were
not aware of the fact that there were statutes of this land
recognising the coronation oath as becoming the King in
his legislative capacity. The Right Rev. Prelate produced
an authority which did not reach us, stating that every
Sovereign from Edward the Confessor to Edward the
Third was bound to make good laws, and that the way
in which the coronation oath was regarded served as a
landmark for the Constitution. The first statute applying
to this was the 7th of Edward the First, which made a
reservation that nothing therein granted should be contrary
to this oath. Now could it be doubted that the King
recognised himself, and that the law of the land recognised
the principle, that it was binding upon the Soy& reign
to make goad laws by the coronation oath ? In the
statute of the 15th of Edward the Second similar evidence
was to be found, wherein it was expressly stated that
nothing should be enacted against the coronation oath.
Then, in the reign of Edward 111. several statutes were
repealed by reason of their being contrary to the corona-
tion oath. The Right Rev. Prelate then alluded to the
Union of Scotland, at which period the Church of Scot.
land, apprehensive of the consequences which might arise
from a Parliament of Prelates, demanded that a statute
should be framed to settle the establishment of the
Church of Scotland. They called a commission, the
General Assembly of Scotland held a meeting, and sub-
mitted what their views were, while an Act was drawn
up, when this commission sent a second petition to the
Government, stating that they should like to arrange 0- e
settlement of the coronation oath; and upon this the English
Bishops desired to draw up a Bill far the protection of the
Church, and they required that the King should take an
additional oath to maintain inviolate the settlement of
the Church of England and Ireland. He was happy to
be able to quote the authority of a Noble and Learned
Lord near him (Lord Plunket) on the subject of the co-
ronation oath, whose opinion was in unison with his own.
—(Here Lord Plunket said "No.") He was surprised
at the Noble and Learned Lord dissenting from this asser-
tion.—(The Right Rev. Prelate then referred to an
opinion of Lord Kenyon's, which was in effect that the
whole system of law was to guard against the introduc-
tion of Popish influence in any branch as far as regarded
the Sovereign, &c.) Lord Plunket, on a former occa-
sion, in alluding to this opinion, said that it was that of a
sound lawyer and an honest man. There might be cases
in which the King would not be justified in accepting the
advice of his Council in violation of the coronation oath
if it were an act to overturn the Protestant hierarchy, &c.
This was the opinion of the Noble anti Learned Lord in
June, 1828. The Right Rev. Prelate concluded by thank-
ing their Lordships for the patient attention with which
they heard him.

Lord STOURTON rose up in that House to give his
conscientious support to the Bill. Their Lordships had
been told that they were to consider this measure as re-
pugnant to the principles of Protestantism, and as opposed
to the interes's of a Protestant country—that it was
intended to weaken, and in reality to destroy, the Pro-
testant Church. He denied the assertion.—(Hear, hear )
Doubtless the evidence of a Roman Catholic Peer might
be regarded with suspicion, but he called on their Lord-
ships to remember that the Bill came down to their
Lordships' House backed by a great majority of what he
could, for the first time for many years, call the real re-
presentatives of the people.—(Loud cheers.) When
turning from the Commons of England, be looked to the
Bench of Bishops themselves; he found that even they
were divided in opinion on the principles of this Bill.—
(Hear, hear.) From them he looked to the Protestant
population of the country generally, and here, also, he
found an overwhelming majority in favour of the rnea-
sure.--(Hear, hear.) Finding this to be the case, and
finding, also, that this plan was recommended to them by
those who were the responsible advisers of the head of
the Protestant Church, and who had so large a share in
the control of its temporalities—how, he asked their
Lordships, could he refuse his assent to a measure which,
under all the circumstances of the times, he thought would
prove highly beneficial and advantageous both to Church
and Stare.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord then pro-
ceeded to comment on the observations of the Right
Rev. Prelate with regard to the Catholic Bishops, and
clergy. The Right Rev. Prelate had passed a general
censure on the Irish pliesthood, but he had contented
himself with referring to the instances of Dr. Doyle and
Dr. M'Cabe. Now he would ask were there no other
Irish Catholic Bishops? And even if censure could be
justly applied to those two individuals, were all the rest to
be condemned on their account?—(Hear, hear.) He
differed in some respects from the arguments of Dr.
Doyle, whom, however, he could not but highly respect.
Still he could discard the arguments which he thought
objectionable without throwing away his religion, or
maligning its priesthood.—(Cheers.) The Right Reve-
rend Prelate had most appropriately alluded to the evils
resulting from absenteeism. With regard to the system
of eduction, however, of which the Right Reverend
Prelate so much complained, it was not a little singular
that he and many other Noble Lords should have bestowed
so much time in opposing a more improved and extended
system of education. At least half of the recent debates
in that House had been occupied by such opposition.
(Hear, hear.) Much was to be said in extenuation for
those streng expressions of some Catholic Priests, to which
allu,ion had been made. It should be remembered that
these persons were the actual witnesses of and sharers in
that distress, which had been so forcibly described. It
was they who went into the cabin of the peasants, and
who saw the miseries to which they were exposed. How
could they avoid describing in warm and excited language
that which was so powerfully calculated to appeal to their
feelings?—(Hear, hear.) He was quite sure, that were
the Right Rev. Prelate himself placed in a similar situation,
even he might he tempted to indulge in a greater degree
of warmth than subsequent reflection would perhaps
justify.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord concluded by declar-
ing his determination to support the Bill.
Lord PLUNKET said that he, could not attempt to
follow the Right Rev. Prelate through the wide range of
argument which lie had taken. The Right Rev. Prelate
had certainly introduced into the discussion a vast quantity
of matter of a very subduing nature in every sense of the
word.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He felt the greatest admi-
ration of the eloquence which the Right Rev. Prelate had
displayed, but nothing about his speech had struck him
with so much surprise as the address with which he had
drawn away their Lordships' attention from that which
was really the question before the House.—(Hear, hear.)
During a great part of his able and eloquent speech he had
employed himself in discussing the Catholic question.
\Vas that the question now in debate ? What had the
Right Rev. Prelate to propose upon that subject ? Did
he mean to propose that the law which had passed should
be repealed ? Would he say that the doors of that assembly
should again be closed against the Roman Catholics ? Il
not, what object, in Heaven's name, what argument was
there in his reference to it ? And why should the Right
Rev. Prelate, on rising to address the House for the Church
and the truth of God, drag in a topic which could have
no other effect—though he would not say that it was in.
tended than to excite ill.blood—(Cheers)—and to make
it impossible—let the Catholic Relief Bill be in conception
ever so wise, or in its natural consequences ever so bene-
ticial—that it could produce any thing but discord and
interminable ?—(Hear, hear.) If, as the Right
Rev. Prelate asserted, the cure for the vices inherent in
the nature of the Catholic religion, and growing out of
the system of Ca6olic education, was only to be found in
the ministry 01 Protestant Bishops in Ireland, he could
riot help rejoicing exceedingly that there was no pro.
bability of the Right Rev. Prelate being sent to that
country.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Right Rev. Pre-
late said that the predictions which bad been made of the
ood consequences that would result from Catholic eman-
cipation had not been verified. Their Lordships would
do well to recollect the period at which those predictions
were made, and the manner in which the measure of re-
lief bad been delayed, and thence they might deduce a
I. sson of experience. Their Lordships might learn from
that example the folly of delaying a measure the efficiency
of which depended upon its being willingly and timeously
granted, and be hoped that they would bear that circum-
s..auce in mind in considering the present measure, How

had their Lordships dealt with respect to that wise, 31'
and necessary measure—for so he must still contind.l
call it—Catholic emancipation? For his own part,
should never regret the part he had taken in endeavor
to obtain that great measure of national justice.--(141
Their Lordships delayed the adoption of that measure
a quarter of a century after the good sense of the PO
of this country had acknowledged its necessity and jO4ll,
Even so late As 1825, if their Lordships had adopted
Bill which was then sent up from the House of Comp°
how different would have been the state of Ireland AC,.
present moment! They were now tasting the b"
fruits of their own tardy justice.—(Hear) hears) :11
were suffering not for the act which they had passed',
for having delayed to pass it in spite of their conviell
of its necessity, from personal considerations of eA

diency and convenience.. Let it not be supposed
what he was now saying, that hb fotgot how much
country was indebted to the Noble Duke npptisite for
conduct respecting that question. He would never fe
and be hoped that no person connected with the Cat'
cause ever would, the debt of gratitude which they e,
to that illustrious individual ; but what he wished tO
press upon their Lordships' minds was, that if Cat',
emancipation bad been conceded in 1825, instead of '
delayed till 1829, some of the consequences to which
Right Rev. Prelate had adverted would never have occu
The measure which, yielded in proper time, would I°
been received with gratitude as a boon, was unjustly I/
poned, and the parties who were entitled to obtain it 0
driven to the necessity of entering into illegal combinati
and keeping up a spirit of agitation, and by this 111,
the people of Ireland were placed in a situation in '
every person who chose to take an extravagant pat,:
politics obtained an ascendancy over them. The comb'
Lions and other evils which rendered the coercive mos
which Government had lately obtained from Patna'
so necessary were the fruit of the postponement of e o_,
cipation. For upwards of one hour the Right Reves
Pr elate entertained the House with discussing the ow
of Dr. Doyle. What had Dr. Doyle to do with,
question ? If he were an angel from heaven, or Lug °°
- himself, what bearing, he asked, had his merits or deal%
upon the subject under discussion ?—(Hear, hear.) li'd
Right Reverend Prelate had also dwelt at consider/
length upon the sayings of a Dr. M'Cabe, who bad!,
t:
seemed, made a speech containing a great deal of non
which the Rev. Prelate described as calculated to su 1,
every feeling of Christian charity, and to excite ill blel
Suppose this were all true, what had it to do with
question ?—(Hear, heir.) If his eyes would allow
and he had no consideration of mercy for their Lordab
he could read speeches—he would not mention the now'
of the persons who delivered them—..which were to
l
more foolish, and more wicked than the speeches of
Doyle or Dr. M'Cabe, if such speeches they had r'
made, though they had actually proceeded from POI
cant divines.—(Cheers and laughter.) Did he say i
in disparagement of the Protestant Church or Proten,
clergymen ? No person living entertained a more profo7
respect for both. He felt that the Protestant clergy 113!
..d
land had, on account of their present melancholy situatir
every claim on the compassion and justice of the Ifol
He would never be a party to any measure which 6,
have the effect of depriving the clergy of their just rigil
but that was not the character of the present Bill,
.11'
any arguments of that nature were therefore thrown aw:j
upon the question before the House. It would apn
from the statements of the Right Rev. Prelate, and e;
Noble Lord who spoke last night, that there was a car,
spiracy at work in Ireland against the Church. Hertl,
lieved there were persons who would be delighted to
down the Protestant Church in that country.—(l7i
from the Opposition.) He would make a present of '
declaration to those who cheered him. In his opinio
was essential to the safety of the Protestant Church t' i
some measure should be speedily adopted for the pur
of strengthening it, and making it proof against the I
chinations of its enemies. Last night a Noble Lord, P,
generally supposed himself to be the representative of
Protestants of Ireland in that House, but whom he I
not then see in his place—(Hear, from the gad.'
Roden). He was glad that the Noble Lord knew his, ;
by his description..—(A laugh.) It was the truth ts t
t
the Noble Lord sometimes persuaded himself that all
Protestantism of Ireland was centred in his own per I
—(A laugh.) The Noble Lord stated last night t, I
was a conspiracy existing in Ireland against the Prow g
rant Church, and he even went so far as to say that 1
vernment were parties to it.—(TheEarl of Roden, "Di g:,/
The Noble Lord certainly said that it was the intee° i
of Government to overthrow the Protestant religion. ~) i
The Earl of RODEN—I said chat the tendency of r" 1
measure was to overthrow the Protestant religion.
Lord PLUNKET said he bagged leave to assure ,
Noble Lord of one fact, which was, that the persons 0
were now watching with the deepest anxiety for the hill
of the present Bill, were the very persons who were c
....) ,
ing on the conspiracy against the Protestant COP'
There was nothing which could impart so much satis
tion to these conspirators, and to persons in Ireland
rally, who entertained objections to the Protestant relin,
as the failure of this measure, which was brought fortryi
for the purpose of giving strength and stability to ii
establishment.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate
!,s:
not been very candid in stating the purpose of the mesewoe
for be had argued as if the Bill proposed to effect onlYlo,
object, and that the abolition of vestry cess. Now 11.0,'
though a very material, was not the only object of theL,
He was not disposed to quarrel with the Right Rev. 1::d
late's statement that the establishment of the Proteil,
church in Ireland, considered as a whole, was not an rig,l,"
grown one; but he certainly thought that there was vs?,
portion of the establishment very much overgrown, 4n another portion he would say, for want of a better t
very much undergrown. The Bill proposed to take 1'
some of the members of the establishment a portion
their superabundant wealth, and to divide it amongst tg",tii
less fortunate brethren. Would any one say that this
lip;
not a good object ? Would any one say that it was pi
calculated to bring the church into greater repute the°ol
at present stood in, if the working clergy were 031
effectually provided for?—(Hear.) That was old
the objects of the Bill which the Right Rev. Pre:k
would not allow to go into Committee. Another 017) di
was the building of churches, and another the buildieffg,,
glebe houses. The Right Rev. Prelate had entered 11
calculations, to show that no fund could be raised 013
the Bill beyond the sum which was necessary to meet
payment of vestry cess ; but he bad no doubt that il ty
Bill should go into Committee, it would be found tho by
Right Rev. Prelate was entirely mistaken. The 14°01
and Learned Lord here entered into an exposition of
mistake of 200,0001. committed by the Right Reveres
Prelate; but here, and in many of the subsequent fiS .
of his speech, wh, re his Lordship turned from the T 1
lery, he was quite inaudible. These were specieueo JII
the absence of consideration which the Right Rev. Prel:4 q
had brought to this discussion. He said that the vrii
cess was not considered by the Irish as an evil ; but „et
(Lord Plunket) spoke in the presence of Noble 10
acquainted with the state of Ireland, on both aides of A,
House, and he appealed to them whether the vest/ rd,
was not considered a grievance of the utmost enort,
and felt as such by the poorer classes—from its Ir,t
nature it was calculated to be so.—(Hear, hear.) i
wretched being unable to provide for the sustenaneeidi
his family, to be taxed for the service of a church 'Wof 1
which lie had no connexion, and for which, as 01
Right Rev. Prelate contended, he entertained an babiSii.
dislike?—(Hear.) He' (Lord Plunket) wanted DO e
4FI
deuce further, and he asked those Noble Lords who 150
attached to the Protestant interest in Ireland, and lid I
wished to strengthen that interest, to remove 0001
those burdens of which agitators seek to avail th..,0
selves in their attempts to overturn the Protestant C 131,01
of Ireland. It was a serious grievance, and on !,,i
account alone they wanted this soothing and salt?
measure to protect the interests of that Church. :410
the Right Rev. Prelate contended that this measure 0
defective (as we understood) in respect to the rerie
fund ; and on what ground ? The Right Rev. rte'"j
had gone back to some distance into the history of the ;01
fruits; but there could be no doubt that in the till 3, of
Henry VIII. first fruits were paid by the clergy oh,r
every living that became vacant in Ireland. It so_. e
pened that in the books no livings were taken doWOO
liable to the tax, except such as were rated above a cef,doi
amount at that time; and questions afterwards 0r"
whether livings which bad increased in value should-9f,
His (Lord Plunket's) opinion bad been taken °:00P
Attorney-General, and he was of opinion that they e'14.,il
not. He had given that opinion under his hand, es/(110
was now on their Lordships' table. His colleaglit.,,
Solicitor-General) differed from him. His (Lord r ,10
ket's) opinion consisted of two parts—one was, thstoff
officers collecting the first fruits were not entitled le 0
them, in the present circumstances; and Mr. PP se
S eicitor-General, agreed with him on that poie,6o:oo,
differed on the second; for he thought that the id ter
cauld issue a commission of revaluation. Since DA
time other law officers of the Crown had been collelsof
and they concurred with him (Lord Plunket) 0.0
the Crown could not make a revaluation. But there;
no doubt, that if they were now valued, niall.d ,0f
livings would be liable to the first fruits. Re "lye:,
think that this could be called spoliation. Their 0 P,,
ships bad been ,told, and by none more strongly toe',
Ll,ght Rev. Prelate, of the dangers in which the
out,
,1 Ireland was placed, anti it had been thrown out, di
chage against the Government, that it was boodle

If the l
',ntractea Qath
diverted
to 'rpm
r4,sory
dies
°lth"'e would
WhO
in
the (
tare Protette
twee 44 a soh
xi
ri the
~
N act, like "E
roe a With
the c
t e(1 Wheti
ektt ?etvreen
ttl which
Looaerei
kleoLie thi, ti(
41()-g
thighs illisate
desi:
,("°tv Cooki!
111 the oath R.
i4l
su,
i'lt)Yettl nte
e

to that wise, Jul
Ist still continB
his own part,
ten in endeavour'
justice.—(l4°
of that measure)
ense of the po)
tecessity and jto`;
ps had adopted'
louse of Cotttoo
to of Ireland s,!l
tasting the vr:,t,

lear, hear;)
hey had passed,
of their convict,
iderations of e%l
be supposed fr
rgot how much
ke oppdsite for
would never foil
d with the COD,
de which they (3!
a he wished to,
s, that if Cad,'
5, instead of be
uences to which
lever have occur!

• time, would 1)°
.',
was unjustly ro
to obtain it 11"
illegal combinatia
and by this 111,!!
situation in vi7u!
!xtravagant pat',
em. The comb°
he coercive meol
!d from Parliaoel
Nmement of etnlj
the Right Revef°,
scussing the Or
le to do with!,
heaven, or Lt3o
Is merits or deu
Hear, hear.)
reit at considers'
`Gibe, tvhn had,
eat deal of non6.lev
alculated to stiuul
to excite ill blool
it to do with
s would allow br,
for their Lordsliq
mention the no°
which were lotic,
he speeches of
;lies they had e
!cried from PO
I Did he say t/i
.i
lurch or Protest'
led a more prefoo
!stant clergy inttr
elancholy situat°
Mice of the Hoa
'asure which shed
DE their just righ°
e present Bill, se
•efore thrown 811_,,1
. It would sPr
r. Prelate, and °I
.t there was a c0,,,1
Church. He
le delighted to Psl
co u ntry. —ti 1-01
Ce a present of 0)
In his opioiots
tstant Church tb
:0 for the purr
oof against the 0:
a Noble Lord,
!presentative of Ali
but whom he
from the girl
Lord knew hill''
was the trutb tbE
iimself that all 0
in his own per d 'l°ll
;r1 last night tlw
,gainst the Prot:4
as to say that
1 of Roden, "No:
was the intent°
'taut religion.
he tendency of tv
ant religion. d

leave tiias.iure
at the persons Al
'
xiety for the tail
ris who %%ere card
'rotestant vou-4
.t so much satisi°,,
is in Ireland ge.:o
Protestant relig,.ri
as brought forol,h4
(I stability to ",j
ht Rev. Prelate lio,
iose of the measli,e
d to effect only ',
r cess. Now tko
y object of theft,
'e Right Rev. 1101
t of the Protestil
OHO(
e, Was not an -
that there was n"
Ath overgrown, At
of a better tevoi
posed to take fr°i
went a portioti,i
de it amongst tl3/501
e say that this )
ly that it was 't
.ter repute thsOff
clergy were 0117,
That was non t
ight Rev. peelsl
Another oted
her the building
a had entered 16
d be raised unto
;essary to meet to
doubt that if to
I be found that 1#
sken. The 140
in exposition •f
le Right Revetvo
e subsequent par,
led from the 6,1
were specimen* 0
Right Rev. prep
id that the ve9tl:,
is an evil ; but
roj
ce of Noble L°
tbp
both sides of
er the vestry t:if
utmost enorg!Td

ses—from its I
(Hear, hear.) 0(
the sustenanceo
of a church vitv
or which, as: 'Ol
tamed an babltii,
t) wanted no eere
Lords who sgv
Ireland, and 'vs,
to remove ones,
ek to avail they,o
Protestant Ch'ioo
ace, and on
ling and salntl3%;
lat Church. di,
this measure rio%
to the roll:tail,
ght Rev. Prell,
history of the e ol
hat in the tic°, of
the clergy 049#
eland. It $0 "or
re taken down' i 0
ted above ace`nef
afterwards o" ,
value should 6
been taken "
old
n that they sh 1
r his band, flnoV
His colleague loo'
His (Lord r tbt
one was, th3sieff
lot entitled t° tbe
and Mr. Jot, Doc
in that pole, ,0
t that the Cl'0
00l
on. Since iolt
ad been c009°,101
d Plunket) ,4
i. But theteoorf
clued, manY.d 00c
its. He ,
]. Their the
he°l t el'
strongly 01
which the ~
so
out' 06
thrown .8
was hostile

Protestant Chinch of Ireland. A man who made such
48 accusation seriously must be bereft of understanding.
Government, seeing the dangers in which that Church
Was placed, thought it incumbent upon it to raise a fund
that should be applied strictly to ecclesiastical purposes,
and they bad recommended to his Majesty to signify his
consent to a measure being introduced into the other
heuse of Parliament to effect that purpose. The other
House bad passed this Bill, not with any levity, as the
Right Rev. Prelate supposed, for a measure could not
have been conducted with much levity that took three
Months to discuss.—(Hear.) The measure had then come
to this House; and the Right Bev. Prelate had thought
himself entitled to say of it,—and it was unfortunate that
be
'6llla so speak of such a measure,—that it sanctioned
tpuliatioti of property and robbery.—( Hear, hear.)
laas it an allegation that Parliament had no right to
legislate respecting the property of the Church ? Was
it an allegation that was a matter above the law ?
(Hear, bear.) That was not a doctrine calculated for the
Presetit day...--(Chaiers.) He (Lord Plunket) did not
doifter froth thy opinion he had entertained as to the pro-
-41.Y of the Church. He still held the property of the
lurch
to be a sacred deposit. Nothing was more idle
athaa,4 to ask whether the property of the Church was or
tinder the control of Parliament. All property was
tinder the control of Parliament.—(Hear.) But when he
said
h so, he felt that it was a grave thing to meddle with
ProPerty, unless in a case of necessity. He admitted
that, in
ei certain semis-, the property of the Church was
t:•-'te property; it was, however, like other corporate
crirl)PertY, which was private property in the same sense as
ft, arch property, and might be applied to the purposes of
e corporation, and it was within the power of Parliament
tl,„taa'PPir it, 30, in the present case; the property of
n-htirch of Ireland, every part of it, was to he applied
tehPurposes strictly and purely ecclesiastical. It was an
ertise of terms to argue that this was spoliation and rob-
f,Y,' No allegation had ever been made by any servant
of
Crown that Church property was applicable to pur-
-414 not ecclesiastical. With respect to the surplus, the
oh-",./cluestion bad been whether it was Church property or
p„-,; it had never been asserted that if it was Church pro-
ail/ it Was applicable to non-ecclesiastical purposes. The f
't werence was, that if the surplus was fairly Church property,
ties only to Church purposes. With regard
'e abstract question, whether Church property could
eaPPlied to the general purposes of the State,. he gave
4 -PiriMti ; it was a foolish thing to give an opinion un-
aecees • ' The Right Rev. Prelate
had Oily on such a question.
he said that it might be necessary to give such an opinion ;
LOrd P• ) however, said not. But he wished. to tall
fell -'lght Rev' Prelate's attention to an observation which
istu"e4l
h him as' to the application of the surplus to Church.
the'd(4ls. Originally, as it had already been stated in
lays di ate' the Bishops had exercised a right which the
iajh 's not give them, anti by letting at nominal rents
te f:ttl the property of the church. The Legislature in •
restored with the right so exercised by the Bishops, and
LIZ(' its property to the Church? Then,. if the
iSaphi'tnte had done this, was it not entitled to
'Pll the propel ty of the Church ? Was that
tienietia° Then, it was said that the construe-
t,ede the machinery of the Bill was just as unpre-
" other parts of it; that the Commission was
01tc4,-BSt of laymen instead of churchmen. Why, the
Pirst'° Made this complaint forgot that the Board of
eisat'tuita consisted partly of laymen and partly of eccle-
Jastiee: The Lord Chancellor of Ir.iland, the Lord Chief
rnea,eh and the Attorney and Solicitor-General, were
"eh he,r," of the board. But it was again said, was ever
(:f. Whiling heard of as such a Commission, the members
t=ort] tie". Were removeable by the Crown ? Why, the
iicitor,l"ef Justice of Ireland, and the Attorney and So-
Crow General were removeable at the pleasure of the
tioa so that the Board was liable to the same objec-
ia still it was said that there was a predominant power
pert a 'quiet'. The commission was to consist of eleven
atti 4', of whom six were necessarily to be of the ecclesi-
to tai establishment ; so that there was a majority of six
tp rualitie. But it was said this was a Bill which touched
rit
„ es, and should be called the " Spiritualities
terrain How was this charge made out? It was said in
cases, where divine service had not been performed
r three years in a place, the Commission was authorized
tWithhold the proceeds of the livings, and to apply them
ia; Other Church purposes. But was this stating the case
to-4,1/,? What were the circumstances ? This was not
,ai,h4t4e place till it was certified by the Bishop of the
the-e"t, that divine service had not been performed for
t"l'e specified, and then the Commission was
Ith %wed to exercise a discretion on this point. Could
ai,,able"riously contended, that where clergymen were
knee from performing divine service through the vio-
an,,hi:f the times, if the fact were known to the Cons-
tant 4:aers, they would not act accordingly ? It was then
thaeto„urb,satt tthbeisy were taxing the clergy and interfering with
and ct._sperty
Batton
the
rof bishopritchee church by consolidating bishoprics,
was a thing unheard of. As to the consoli-
which was said to be a gross iuvasion
%din ights of the church,' there had been various pro-
other on this point . 1n1745 and in 1752, and in
coathildastcnces since the revolution, bishoprics, had been.
that th a". Could it with any show of reason be said
the r• !Parliament was incompetent to take away any of
18101g4ftl'and privileges of the clergy, when the Act of
right George 111. gwent to deprive the clergy of the
;ell that
in Parliament ? After this, could they
,t(ril 4'i' the law of this land prevented the Parliament
rrelat-a-erf"in with the church? The Right Rev.
Laectuehjaatd stated, in the course of his speech, that it was
;ttl the Parliament to compel the landlords of Ire-
ja.°e(ll' haft' a more equitable portion of the burdens occa-
-1.101 the remission of the vestry cess. Why, the
0, Gentleman who then filled the office of Co-
Peose°tejrketStY did, when he was not a member of the
r arliaa,uhiet, introduce a measure to the other House
Phe eCtut, the object of which was to shift the burden
p cess fiiom the occupants to the landlords.
tainaZPosition was thrown out, but it must be borne in
heYet beet was thrown out by a Parliament which bad
t:tilisets,O Purified by ) (Here
toe as of the Noble and Learned Lord became
in the gallery, partly in consequence of
tieessat.° Oa which he stood, and partly from the buz of
u'n which
LOtaa,pervaded the House.)
tinlery,
that CHANCELLOR rose
.to order. He tab-
Zat's du,
at, WOnkl be useless to continue the discussion
'so spoke attention were paid to the observations of those
ear
thome. r He confessed lie had scarcely been able to
kt 11;:d asLoti' He confessed
and Learned Lord.
tjan ,4 been the
continued—He expressed his sorrow
ta,,-‘,,L° Which N° occasion of interrupting the conversa-
k-"" that if h °hie Lords were indulging, and assured
in ° spoke too loud, he would endeavour to
tall to- h• 8 tope.
To resume—the Right Rev. Prelate,
laering
theunder which Ireland la-
'tit e°' had grievances
uted a professed his opinion that the vestry cess con-
4efessh °as of these. He (Lord Plunket), with all clue
roses
hoe:
,ti.o.th.e opinion of
.the Right Rev. Prelate, could.
vti:e, ite.ieMakidng that this impo.stk.wasrohnevioefwthine
wgrhlvh-
tttii Right ,an
prelate fa Lafdroimndutlageid7he
the view
Plunket)
1)4,e:el that t"he real and ultimate remedy for the evils
iste diag. On that population, which the Right Rev. Pre-
, tf tott"Snated as wretched and miserable, was the want
eotanlttoetion. Here the Noble and Learned Lord was
11,4 o-ait,elY inaudible; as soon. as he could be heard in
see 'sty he observed that it was no matter what were
:its of the Bill under discussion—it was no matter
'41,1C:11'0,4 was calculated to promote the prosperity of
Itietit..,iah°4 to correct the abuses of the Church establish-
ghtalt t, Possessed one vitiating quality—it diminished the
Was the Protestant Church establishment in Ireland.
the
S Contended that in concurring in this enactment
averei
e Fri would be violating the oath he took at
rsed 5.01" ; that, in short, the coronation oath op-
'easur 14"erable bar to the sanction of such
.a
Etr,y e•—cti
to „tat "r, hear.) He would take the li-
b' and aea
whis notion with regard to the coronation
ti no recoil o.uld state, candidly and fairly, that he
Olisedrtte:
ean
tdei:edre;
ectian that the oath was used. in former
%as It appeare t sense from that in which it was now
to him that the coronation oath was a
teh a' well a, into between the King and his subjects,
cit other•
recselesiastical,— between the one as well as
ti,eePtlY biading°twcontract was equally binding on all, nut
that ,t° the wh ,sth respect to the church, but with re-
ehri.
alfe the Bathe People.. He would go further and say
he `,!* teda_if it Produced the people with whom it was
ofliverted from iProduced them no benefit, then it might
ler,°Paisory disc, oiiginal intent ; but as to its implying
te•'4"te would b,.'"ge of its professions when that per-
%
tot woorn the
oath ontrary to the interests of the parties
Protested, was contracted, from that doctrine he
Itaare than a "It The oath was in his opinion, nothing
th"eeen th T.,°2leirin attestation ithe of God,
titre ,0 all
a , ?n, n presence
th.
toet, like
all nu his subjects.—(Hear, bear.) That
vsl, With the ther contracts, might surely be put an
0: e asked consent of the parties contracting. If it
, Whether
between the coronation oath were merely a
It ,7e in arhis, teWo parties, and understood to bind in the
l's.clvee• naerelyena asoclbemmpeneraatytitetsoteaktioint, behrewszu
ml d answeraanswer yes;
andblll,4lothie ]alter n ngl might not the case arise
elessee of the peop. e,
?nay, even the King him-
iu
tlmosoltgootvt
cdeuslrerits abrogation. But how could this he
~llaf the
00a(„thlud7laree
reggeneraliste r
ewdi wishes e sh
heaven
vtelitie nationand
irrevocable?
iat,toyetueZt titoa
tphreediectaotirae;nti
woodt put
impossibleo

escape from its trammels. But let this question of the
coronation oath be further considered. What was its nature
before the Reformation ? Was it not then just as bindine
upon the King as it was now? Certainly it was;
and if its binding quality had been equally insisted upon
it was evident no reformation would have taken place ir
the Church at all. Was not Edward VI., that pious
Monarch, bound by his vow always registered in heaven !
to maintain the Catholic religion in England ? He was,
but he unfortunately happened to die before he was called
upon to break his oath.—(A laugh.) Was not Quon
Elisabeth equally bound? But how, he besought the
House, did she act? In truth, if the doctrine respecting
the coronation oath which was now set up were valid at
all, the reformation, by the strictest corollary, was stamped
with the crime of perjury.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
and Learned Lord then cited the testimony of Bishop
Watson with respect to the binding nature of the corona-
tion oath, and quoted the opinion of that Prelate in
favour of its abrogation, whenever the two Houses of
Parliament on certain points should require that step to be
taken.—(This quotation was received with loud cries of
" Hear.") When he took all these circumstances into
consideration, he flattered himself that in the light he '
viewed the question it was clear and intelligible. How
did the case stand at the period of the revolution ? He
would settle this point by appealing to the preamble of
the Act of 1 William and Mary, from which it would be
seen that no intention was entertained by the Sovereign
of that period of altering the substance and binding na-
ture of the oath before in force. The enactment which
followed the preamble of the Bill was to the effect that—
"Be it enacted, that the King should swear to rule this
kingdom and the dominions appertaining thereto accord-
ing to the laws and customs of the same. Secondly,
that he should administer the laws with justice
and mercy; and, lastly, that to the utmost of his
power he should maintain ti,e laws of God and
the Protestant religion as by law established,
and to preserve to the Bishops and clergy all the
rights arid privileges as by law should appertain to them
or any of them." That was the effect of the terms of the
oath established at the period of the revolution. The
contract between the Monarch on the throne and the
people whom he governed was special and defined, and
though the character of the oath might be altered, the
character of the contract still remained, and from it the
King could be freed with the concurrence of both branches
of the legislature. He did not see any answer that could be
given to this proposition, for he would contend the doctrines
of Watson and Paley did not apply to the point. It could
not be forgotten that there was another oath co-relative to
the coronation oath—the oath of allegiance, by which the
subject was bound to perform his duty and hold allegi-
ance to the Sovereign on the throne. Thi,, too, was a
registered vow ; but if the doctrines which had been
advanced were maintainable the actors in the revolution
were not only traitors, but perjured traitors. He would at
least hope their memories would be saved from such an
imputation. The next point which had been raised was,
whether the coronation oath applied to the King in his
executive or legislative capacity. Now, the history of
the time showed what was the point or object sought to
be guarded against on the accession of William 111. What
had been the acts of James 11. ? The acts of that Mo-
narch had not been a concurrence with the Houses of
Parliament in inlet ferina with the rights of the church,
but an arbitrary exercise of the Royal prerogative, by
dispensing with the then existing laws. It was to avoid
these mischiefs, and to provide against their repetition,
that the form of oath was established, and not on the
ground that the Monarch had joined with both Houses of
Parliament in even rash and improvident legislation. He felt
that he had almost unnecessarily troubled their Lordships
upon this point ; for, in fact, the coronation oath had no
more to do with the present question than with any other
point that could be casually introduced. But he now came
to the sth article of the Irish Act of Union. That article
stared that the C. urch of England and the Church of
Ireland, as now by law established, should be united as
one Protestant episcopal church, and he called the United
Church of England and Ireland, and should be and remain
for ever as the same was now by law established.—(" Hear,"
from the Duke of Cumberland.) He admitted that the
preservation of the Church as established was a fundamental
article of the Act of Union, nor did he mean to say that
even if there was no coronation oath the King was not
equally bound to the maintenance and preservation of both
that article and the church establishment : the King was
just as much bound as he a-as under a thousand oaths. This
had been the uniform policy since the Reformation and from
the Reformation ; and if it could be established that the
tneasure now proposed to their Lordships would deprive
the Irish Church of its just rights and privileges he (Lord
P.) would retire from the argument. It never had been in-
tended by his Noble Friend or the Government to propose a
measure that was calculated either to injure or overthrow
the church ; and so far from the present measure being
calculated to do so, he would maintain that the proposed
measure was designed and would have the effect of not
only preserving the church but the rights and privileges of
its ministers, and that unless it was passed speedily, danger
to the establishment might be feared.—(Hear.) He could
not shut his eyes to the signs of the times, and he saw the
danger in which the Protestant Church of Ireland stood,
and he felt the difficulty to susta,n it, not against its ene-
mies, but against its friends.—(Hear.) He would say,
then, do not delay this Bill, but pass it speedily ; for by
delay it might become inefficient, sr, at least, like the Ca-
tholic Emancipation Bill, it might be said that this mea-
sure bad not been passed in time. He would also desire
their Lordships to look back to the Reform Bill, and re-
mind them that when their Lordships had seen evils staring
them in the face, which it was impossible to mistake as
being violations of the constitution, yet they had refused
to remove those evils, and the refusal had come back upon
them to an extent that further resistance was impossible.
Such had been the consequence of their pertinacious oppo-
sition to the reform measure, and the feelings and passions
of the people had become so strongly excited that it became
dangerous longer to efuse assent. The people expected to
be represented, and when so, that the work of reform
should proceed.
The Earl of MANSFIELD thought that the whole
measure was enveloped in dangers which, he feared, it
would he impossible to obviate. He had, however, on
mature consideration, fully made up his mind as to what
he should do. At the time of passing the Catholic Bill,
he clearly foresaw the dangers which would ultimately
tall upon the Protestant Establishment: in consequence.
These fears of danger were fully confirmed by the present
measure, and the language held by its supporters. Much
however, as he had differed from the Noble Duke who
was at that time at the head of affairs, he had felt such
confidence in his strength of mind and determination of
purpose, as not to fear any particular ill effects from the
measure while he continued in office. The face of affairs,
however, was now changed, the Administration having
fallen into very different hands. The supporters of the
Bill laid down that the church was a mere Parliamentary
church. This was a test to try the spirit of the whole,
and he need not point out what that spirit was. Great
complaints seemed now to be made of tardy justice"
in the Catholic Relief Bill. There had been no such
complaints made before it was passed. It was not then
threatened that that measure was but a mere part of a
whole. No, it had been begged as a panacea for all Ca-
tholic evils, and as such it had been granted. Their
Lordships were iu a most awkward predicament ; for
they must either support this most mischievous Bill, or
expose the Irish Church to still worse dangers than even
at present befel them. It had been truly said, that a tax
was laid on the clergy by Edward the Sixth ; but it was
not true that they had paid it without murmuring ;
for they resisted the tax. But bad the clergy, in the
present instance, been asked for their consent to the
tax to be imposed upon them ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The clergy ought to have been called to a Convocation,
as in ancient times, and asked whether they should re-
fuse or accede to the proposed tax. With regard to the
abolition of the vet try cess, the present plan was not a
commutation of the tax; it was a way taken to take that
tax off the community, and to lay it upon the clergy.
The tax proposed to be laid upon the clergy was most
objectionable; for there could not be a more vicious prin.
ciple in taxation than that of a graduated property tax.
—(Hear.) He would remind their Lordships, that in
admitting the principle that Dissenters should not pay to-
wards the support of the E•tablished Church, they were
holding out a premium to Dissenters, and that much as
was now the fondness for cheap law, there were fully us
many who desired cheap religion—( Hear, hear, hear)—and
that the system of doing without clergy men was spreading
very widely.—(Cheers.) With regard to the vestry
cess, he thought that if they shifted the burden from the
occupier of land, they ought to I iy it on the possessor, but
not on the clergy. He could not look on the proposed
Commission with satisfaction ; neither could he think
that it was calculated for the nature of the unties confided
to its charge, as it would have too often to meddle with
ecclesiastical matters. He thought that in a Commission
of this nature, all the Bishops should Ire members. Si, ith
regard to the proposed junction of the bishoprics, he
would not offer an opinion. He would not say whether
the present—or what number would be sufficient ; but be
would have thought it reasonable that it should have been
provided by the Bill ; that the revenues of such bishop-
, les as were:joined to others should be made over to the
Commissioners, as the junction continued ; but that, if for
.any reason it was hereafter thought advisable to restore
the bishopric, the revenue should then be taken out of the 1

, hands of the Commissioner and applied to the support of
the Bishop. By this Bill, leiwever, the source from
which the revenue for the support of the Bishop was
disposed of, so that the bishopri cs could never hereafter
be separated. Then there was the clause of the Bill by
which no clergyman was to be appointed in parishes
where there had been no service for three years. Would
this clause not be an incitement to the Popish clergy to
prosecute and drive away the Protestant clergymen from
their flocks ?—(Hear.)
Earl GREY said that the time was limited to the Ist
of February, 1833, which was past, and there could,
therefore, be no such inducement.
The Rail of MANSFIELD admitted that such was the
case, but @till he thought it would lay the Protestant clergy
open to persecution. He (Lord M.) would not apply the
term spoliation to the Bill ; but it could not he denied
that it was a Bill which laid an exclusive tax upon a body
which was formerly exempted from that species of tax-
ation.—(Hear, hear.) They all knew that the Bill was
very deficient when introduced into the other House; and
they all knew the motives which had induced the change
—a motive of which he approved, as it was for the pur-
pose of conciliation. But he still thought that there was
mischief enough in the Bill as it was left, and that the
principles left in it would lead to the ul imate adoption of
that clause which was left out,—(Cheers.) He feared
th it this principle might lead to similar feelings regarding
other property. It had been said that the time might
come when those discussions regarding the property of the
church might lead to similar discussions regarding other
property. On that he would give no opinion ; but this
he would say, that if the Noble Earl had stood up in
defence of the church as a Member of the Crown, it would
have more effect in allaying the feelings of the country
upon that subject than all the zeal and all the eloquence
of all the Members of that House of Parliament or
of the other.—(Loud cheering.) The Noble Earl had
stated his attachment to the Constitution on that
and on former occasions. To him (Lord Mansfield)
it appeared that he had singular notions of proving
that attachment. He had alluded to his love for the
Constitution when he brought forward the Reform Bill—
a measure which he (Lord Mansfield) believed the Noble
Earl did not consider quite as good now as he did at that
time. He had alluded to his love of the Constitution, too,
when that House, as an independent branch of the ;Tie.
lature, rejected the Reform Bill, and when the Noble Earl
thought it his duty to recommend to call a great number
of Members to the House, but for far different purposes
than to let it remain independent. He (Lord AL) had
no doubt that the Noble Earl bad no other motive in the
present and other acts of his administration, but to add to
the glory, and augment the splendour of this country, and
to send his name down to futurity connected with the
great objects which he contemplated ; but he would say
that there was a strange fatality attending the Noble Earl
in all his measures, for while they created alarm and dis-
may in the breasts of those who wished to preserve the
Constitution, they met with the decided approbation of
those whose avowed object it was to subvert that Consti-
tution. He knew nothing to which the country, at the
present juncture, could be compared so well as to a loaded
waggon on an inclined railway. It went with great ve-
locity, but its course was so smooth that those who were
upon it were not sensible of its speed, although the spec-
tators were sensible of the danger; and it was only when
an obstacle occurred in its headlong course, and the crash
was felt, that the actors were made aware of their head-
long course, or rather of the abyss to which they had been
led.—(Cheers.) He objected to the Bill on principle, and
the principle was so far wrong that he could not hope that
it would be amended.—(Cheers.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose amidst loud
cries of "Adjourn," and " Withdraw." He did not wish to
add much to what had already been said en the important
question before the House—a discussion which he was
willing to hope, from the temper happily evinced by the
Noble Lords who had spoken, showed, though certainly
not a favourable change as to the objects of the Bill, still
a disposition fairly to meet the facts of the question, and
to discuss the views of both parties, without excluding
from their consideration the consequences of the abandon-
ment of the Bill at its present stage.—(Cheers.) From
this, he thought himself entitled to hope that they would
allow the second reading of the Bill, and allow the details
to be discussed at a future opportunity. He, therefore,
proposed to touch on only one or two points of the argu-
ments mede use of by the Noble Earl in the speech which
he had just made, and in making those retnaks, he would
confine himself exclusively to the Bill, without alluding
to the many remarks made, by which the Bill itself, the
proper object of discussion, was thrown almost entirely
out of view ; and which, by allusion to former discussions
on totally different subjects, had given rise to much angry
and polemical feeling, which was the curse of such dis-
cussions, and which, he should have thought the Right
Rev. Fathers of the Church would at all events have en-
deavoured to allay. He had heard one remark from the
Noble Earl, in which he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) en-
tirely coincided, which led the Noble Earl to a totally
different conclusion to that to which it had led him, and
which, in fact, was the whole foundation of the measure
now before their Lordships. The Noble Earl had stated
that he perceived a growing disposition in the country to
reject religious establishments altogether, and an increasing
love for what he called cheap religion. But what was the
conclusion to which the Noble Earl had come on those
premises—that the present religious establishments ought
to be left untouched and unreformed.—(Loud cheers.)
The Noble Earl said, leave them untouched, for they have
been too much meddled with already. But when he (the
Marquis of Lansdowne) looked to the abuses which had
crept into the Church of Ireland, be thought that they
ought to come to a different conclusion. Then the Noble
Earl said that if the present state of affairs led to convul-
sion, the sooner the convulsion arrived the better.—(Loud
cheers.) He was surprised when he heard the Noble Earl
state that it would be better to go on knowingly and wil-
lingly in the course which led to convulsion in the hopes
that some good might arise from that state of convulsion.
He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) was sure he spoke the
sentiments of his Majesty's Ministers, and he believed he
spoke the sentiments of the majority of that House, when
he stated that they thought that no expedient should be left
untried by which such a convulsion could be avoided—
(Cheers)—or that should not be used to conciliate the
feelings of the country. And if the Rev. Prelate would
endeavour to forget and avoid irritating topics, and at
the same time make some advances towards healing those
wounds which had been too long kept open, it
would tend much to do away with the rankling ani-
tnosities which had been engendered.—(Loud cheers.)
The vote he intended to give that night would be in favour
of the indispensable measure before their Lordships, not-
withstanding all that had been said by a Noble Duke as to
the expediency of the Bill. If he was aware that the
establishment of the Church was placed beyond the con-
trol of the Legislature, the conclusion, from its being so
placed, that he would come to would be that the safety of
that establishment was endangered by its being so circum-
stanced. If it were placed in a state of permanency as to
its abuses, it might exhibit the spectacle at first of a
powerful institution, but it would at last show symptoms
of decay and fall. There was no reason, no principle, he
thought, that applied to the Church Establishment that
did not apply to other institutions. The present measure
was one important to the community—that was a reason
for its expediency, and on that ground he considered it
should be sanctioned. If, at present, the Church was
threatened with no danger, he was so extremely averse to
anything like change respecting it, that he would rather
put up with any small evils that might surround it than
consent to the slightest change. But he maintained that
they were forced by circumstances, apparent not only to
themselves but to the whole world, to make a change, and
the present Government would be guilty of a dereliction
of their duty, and would merit the accusation of weakness,
if they had not the courage to undertake and frame such a
measure as the present, and submit it to their Lordships.
Many great names might be quoted to show that there
was a necessity for improvement, and he would add to
those great names that of Dr. Paley, who was sincerely
attached to the Church, as their Lordships, who no doubt
were well read in his works, might perceive from many
of his arguments. In the very outset of his works, when
his great mind was directed towards the support of the
Church, he prefixes to one of his first chapters the following
words :—" The Establishment is not religion, nor Chris.
tiauity, but only a means of inculcating it." And con-
tinuing to argue on that principle, he adds, " the Esta-
blishment is a stream of instruction, and when looked
into in any other point of view, it becomes an unbounded
source of corruption." These were Dr. Paley's words,
as nearly as be could recollect. He would not enter into
a detail of all the provisions of the Bill, but when he con-
sidered that the number of Protestants in Ireland amounted
to about 800,000, he considered that nothing could make
the Church more useful to that body than the pro-
vision of the measure which provided for a better dis-
tribution of the revenues of the Irish Church. After
all that had been said upon the subject, and after the long,
able, and criticising speech of the Right Rev. Prelate,
who spoke at such length that night, he thought that the
number of Bishops ought to be reduced, and that still there
would be a sufficient number to perform the duties.
When it was once admitted that the number of Bishops
was too great for the duties they had to perform, it could
he no longer a matter of indifference to deal with them.
It was fully proved that those duties were not effectively
performed. Nor was that to be wondered at, for let the

number of Judges in this country he looked to, and he
would ask whether, if their number was increased by 15
or 20, their duties would not be more improperly per-
formed than they were at present by the smaller number?
The rule held good in all institutions ; by employing more
persons in high situations than were absolutely necessary,
the doors of intrigue and corruptlon were thrown more
widely open, and the utility of the very institutions
themselves was impeded. He contended, that under the
operation of the proposed measure, the respectability and
independence of the Protestant clergy would be increased,
for what was taken from the Bishops, after providing for
certain matters connected with the Church, would go to
provide for the greater independence and respectability of
the parochial and resident clergy. Leaving a sufficient
number of Bishops to discharge their peculiar duties, and
to uphold the splendour of the Church, it was to the pa-
rochial clergy that they ehoold look for a real and useful
amelioration of the Irish Church. It was to them that
the Protestant population of Ireland had to look for im-
provement. When he heard it said that the proposed
measure would let in a flood of Popery in Ireland, he was
willing to have it tried by experience, and he Only wished
that the measure had been established thirty years ago, at
the time of the union. To the authors of that measure
he felt gratefal, but his gratitude would have been still
greater if they had at the same time adopted a measure
of the present description, bl which the Church establish-
ment would have been rendered more in harmony with
the people. If such a measure had then been adopted, would
not, he asked, the parochial clergy have been better off at
present? If, as is proposed by the present measure,2o,oool.
a year were expended on them, would there not be a
greater number of them resident in Ireland ? Would
there not be a greater number of churches built, and a
greatea number of useful clergy provided for ? And would
not the Church now present a more steady front to the
accusations hourly made against it ? There was one
consideration more, and with that he should conclude.
He would ask their Lordships to look tc the effect of the
Bill on the Roman Cathode population of Ireland, con-
nected as they were with the respectability of the PrGtee-
tant clergy of that country. If any good was to be
operated on the Roman Cntholics of Ireland, he consi•
dered it was to be chiefly through the medium of resident
parochial Protestant priests. However unpalatable many
of the provisions of the Bill might be in same quarters,
of one thing he was sure—that they should have the ap-
probation of the Right Rev. Prelate, who spoke so ably
that night against the measure—they should have it fur
endeavouring to increase the number of resident Proms.
tant clergy, to whose utility the Right Rev. Prelate had
borne full and ample testimony. If, by the provisions of
the Bill, Government were enabled to relieve the est 1-
blishment from the odium cast upon it by the church cess,
and were also enabled to place resident Protestant clergy-
men in parishes where there are few Protestants, the
greater number being Catholics, they will be able to render
a service to the Roman Catholics that will be afterwards
found to be invaluable. From what he knew of the
provisions of the Bill, the Church would be relieved from
a load that embarrassed its operations, and if it did only
that, in his opinion, it would be worth passing into a
law. But that was only one of its objects; besides re-
lieving the Church from the incubus of the cess, it would
also diminish the number of Bishops, which, compared
with the number in this country, must by all be allowed
to be far too great. It had been very unjustly said that this
measure was intended to be a boon to those who allowed
the coercive measure to pass. It was no such thing ; it
was one of a series of remedial measures towards Ireland,
with which Government had been day after day occu-
pied. Those measures had, perhaps, been brought on
in too great haste, but there were some of them in a for-
ward state of advancement in the other House—the Grand
Jury Bill, for instance. All these remedial measures
were coining forward in succession, and the present Bill
was intended to be in conjunction with the others. He
augured—if those measures met with a fair consideration,
and should pass into a law—he augured, somewhat san-
guinely, that though the improvement might not be ra-
pid or sudden, there would be a safe and gradual ame-
lioration of the fortunes of Ireland ; and, in making this
anticipation, he did not exclude the interests of the
Church, as connected with that country. On his own
responsibility, he was prepared to answer for the benefits
the measure would produce ; and he trusted that the se-
cond reading of the measure would that night meet with
the consent of their Lordships.
The Duke of CUMBERLAND rose, as we under-
stood, to move the adjournment of the debate. At the
same moment, a great number of Peers crowded towards
the doors. Amid the noise,
Earl GREY was understood to say that, as a great
many Noble Lords intended still to speak upon the ques-
tion, and as the hour was so far advanced, it would
be impossible to conclude the debate that night. He
should consent to its adjournment until to-morrow (this)
evening, provided the Noble Marquis opposite (the Mar-
quis of Londonderry) would consent to defer his motion
(for the return of papers respecting Portugal), notice of
which he had given for that evening.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was understood to
postpone his motion ; and the House adjourned at half-
past one this morning.