The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-25 00:00:00

THE SUN,

leg to imply that Lord Fitzroy Somerset was all-po xerful
at the Horse-guards. The case of the men he had alluded
to was one of very great hardship.
In answer to Mr. CHARTER'S,
Mr. F. MAULE said that non-commissioned officers
and their wives were not placed in the same rooms with
Private soldiers. With respect to married soldiers, an
arrangement was in progress by which they would be
enabled to provide themselves lodgings out of the bar-
racks.

Mr. OSBORNE complained of the use of shell-jackets
on march, and criticised other points of regimental cos-
tume. Nothing could be worse conducted than the whole
of the clothing department. The dress of the officers of
the line seemed adapted for no other purpose than to ren-
der them as frightful as possible.
Mr. F. MAULE said the object of all the late altera-
tions had been economy. In the Kafir war, the officers
finding that the distinction of a blue colt, while the sol-
diers wore red, rendered them a mark to the enemy,
laid the coats aside, and adopted red jackets the same as
those of the soldiers. This was also found to be a
matter of convenience, and now the blue coats were laid
aside.
Mr. HUME asked who was the master tailor.—
(Laughter.) If it was not the duty of the Secretary at
War to attend to these matters, to whom did that duty
belong? If there was no one responsible for it, changes
might succeed each other without end.
Mr. F. MAULE said the changes were made after
being well considered by the Commander-in-Chief; and
submitted by him to a board of general officers.
Mr. OSBORNE said he had reason to believe that
these alterations generally emanated from some elothier,
who possessed the ear of some general officer. He had
no doubt, so uncomfortable were the shell jackets, that
that before six months were over there would be another
general order on the subject.
Colonel DUNNE complained of the rank given to the
Captains of the Guards as Lieutenant-Colonels ; they
furnished about ene-half the whole number. An officer
of the line could rarely attain the rank of Lieutenant-
Colonel under twenty or thirty years, and after serving
in every part of the world, which the officers of the
Guards were not required to do. The system that was
pursued in giving more speedy promotion to the Guards
than to the officers of the line was most unjust. He had
no feeling against the Guards, or to the distinction be-
tween the Guards and the line, but he thought the
fairest. plan to pursue would be to promote the most
deserving officers of the line to the Guards.—(Hear.)
Mr. FOX MAULE said that the question to which
the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman referred would come
before the Committee of Inquiry. He was of opinion
that the Guards should be permanently fixed in London.
Colonel LINDSAY said that during 32 years there
were only three instances of officers of the Guards ex-
changing to regiments of the line.
Mr. OSBORNE said that the commands of stations
were given to guardsmen. He had no objection to the
Guards, and he believed if they were to have a monarchy,
that it would be necessary to have Guards. He denied
that they were peculiarly fit for London service. The
only reason why captains in the Guards were lieutenant-
colonels was, that it was considered advisable to have
those about the Court general officers. It was unjust to
the officers of the line that they should be promoted for
such a reason.
Colonel ANSON said that the average age of general
(Akers in the Guards was about 60, which was as high
in the line. With regard to the fitness of the Guards
for London duty, he did not say that other troops were
not able to perform that duty, but he believed no one
Would deny that the Guards performed their duty effi-
!.iently, and that the line were but too happy when they
lound themselves brigaded by the Guards.
Col. DUNNE did not assert any superiority for the
!PI; and he would not admit any inferiority. He be-
lieved that no Irishmen were admitted into the guards.
Col. LINDSAY said that he knew one regiment in
Which there were some Irishmen. But there was cer-
aiely an indisposition to take Irishmen or Scotcbmen
into the guards, because the corps of guards was dis-
tinctively national.
Mr. OSBORNE said that with respect to the nation-
ality of regiments, most of the 42d Highlanders, called
the " Black Watch," who fought at Waterloo, were
men.—(Laughter.)
Sir D. L. EVANS complained that no mark of recog-
nition had been given to General D'Aguilar and Colonel
Brereton for their distinguished services in the Canton
war.

Lord PALMERSTON bore testimony to the skill,
energy, and ability displayed by the officers in question,
Which had been followed by results so beneficial to
.the
commercial interests of this country.— (Hear.)
Mr. HUME, before the vote was passed, wished to
eongratulate the House on the state of discipline which
eZisted in the army, notwithstanding the disuse of cor-
poral punishment.—(Hear.) That was extremely satis-
factory to those who advocated its abolition.—( Hear.
near.) With respect to the amount of the vote, he con-
sidered there was great room for reduction. They were
not now likely to be invaded, so that he thought the
number of men could be reduced. In the years 1834,
1835, and 1836, the average number of men in the army
was 86,500. It was now 113,000. In addition to this
number there were 150,000 invalids enrolled. There
ware yeomanry and militia, and a police force of 23,000.
In Londom there were 5,338 policemen; in the boroughs
of England there were 4,400; in the counties, 2,509; and
in Ireland there were 10,639. He was greatly sur-
prised at the increase in the police force. The number
of men in the navy was now 43,000 instead of 27,000; in
the ordnance, 13,000 instead of 8,900. Without includ-
ing the artillery, he believed there were now' lid less
than 236,000 armed men in the country. That was
enough to exhaust any country. He should move that
the vote be reduced by 445,0001., though he did not mean
to divide the House upon it.
Mr. P. MAULE said he would not enter into the de-
tails which had been mentioned by the Hon. Member,
as the subject would come before the Committee of In-
drY ; but he would ask whether there was anything in
the state of Europe or in the state of their own country
thethan army now ?—(Hear, hear.) The army was not more
""ett they ought to have, and he only trusted in Provid-
ence it might be found sufficient.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. OSBORNE said that he had brought a plan be-
tore the House by which 2,000,0001. of money might be
lilved without reducing the army by a single man, but
1' had been disregarded. The great question which the
total) of this country had now to decide was, how they
►force
to pay all these forces. The increase of the police
~,?tee in the metropolis might be accounted for by the
Zagiber of new streets which are added every year to
the metropolis.
?!Ir. Hume's amendment was then negatived without
Clivision, and the vote agreed to.
On 168,237/., for the expenses of the general staff of-
ficers and the garrison officers of the Tower of London
"mg moved,
Mr. MIME thought that a great reduction might be
effected in this item.
Mr. OSBORNE objected to having two general offi-
cers, one commanding the army and the other the ord-
nance. person was sufficient to perform the duties
;3111 Commander of the Forces and Master-General of
e Ordnance. Then there was 9001. a year for
the
Duke .of Wellington .as Governor of the Tower.
Lie would knock off 1,0001. a year from these salaries.
When there was the Tower Major. No person could
say who he was. Then there was the chaplain, the
Physician—although there were the army surgeons—
and the apothecary to the Tower, who had 101. a year.
---:(Laughter.) Then there was the gentleman porter
with 804 a
year—(Laughter)—and the gentleman gaoler
60i.—(Laughter.) Then there were 40 yeomen
varder4, as if there were no troops. He would try to
away with the whole thing, and move that the vote
be seduced 3,911/. ls. Bd.
,_/2/11. F. MAULE said the whole of the Tower estab-
nmeat had been under a review of a Committee of that
_house, and they let it stand as it was. Ife should be
the last man to vote under any circumstances to deprive
°t a place of honour that Noble and Gallant Officer who
(lid so much service for his country.—(Hear.)
Mr. OSBORNE said the Hon. Gentleman tried to ride
off upon the Duke of Wellington. He would say nothing
in disparagement of that illustrious individual; but as
the Right Hon. Gentleman made reference to his ser-
vices, he would say in reply that the country had amply
repaid them.—(Hear, hear.) Ho had two regiments,
and Strathfieldsaye, and other things.
Colonel LINDSAY said that the gentleman gaoler
and the gentleman warder were not appointed by the
Government. They were non-commissioned officers,
and the situations were given them as something better
titan retiring pensions.
Mr. OSBORNE protested against debasing non-com-
missioned officers by calling men who had served their
country gentlemen porters and gentlemen gaolers. If
The
served their country let them get suitable pensions.
country would not object to that. But let them not
te paid by being made gentlemen porters and gentle-
"tell gaolers.—(Hear.) He would divide the House.
xt,4fter a few words from Mr. HUME and Major
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it

Majority against it —4B
The vote was accordingly passed.
of On the next vote, 96,5901. for the charges and expenses
it,he Public departments,
th,:r,. Et. OSBORNE said this charge was lumped toge-
full& e most extraordinary way. He regretted to find
of:t le a matter affecting an office so well filled as that
hatue Judge Advocate General was at the present time,
o for the life of him he could not understand what the
at of that office wash
It was an office usuully given to
sa.arrister who could get no briefs, and he really thought
;)-ellY briefless barrister could be got to fill the post for
ketli 'fourth the cost. He hoped, therefore, that his
of etilhdB would support him in a motion that the expense
3yonn'l Judge Advocate General department be reduced
Per annum.—(Oh.)
te Per
ADVOCATE-GENERAL thought it
.11111
eUrprising that the Gallant Gentleman who had
ti
4lnsYelf served, should not know better than to depre-
date the office-which he had the honour to hold. The
.ef the Judge-Advocate was to examine and report
113"11 all the courts-martial which were held in the
114 and they amounted to nearly 60,000 per annum.
Nati es this, constant and continual references were
Poi:tato
the Jude-Advocate by the Horse Guards on
Its to °f great delicacy and difficulty. He said nothing
Point the salary of the Judge-Advocate that was a
gips ''Pon which he hoped he should not be asked to
that "f
linion. This, however, ho begged to remark,
been OY ao
te years not only had the duties of the office
a Pleb increased, but the occupant of the office had
Oa ~,rPrived of a great amount of official assistance.
at denther occasion he should be happy to enter more
thou ittLd into the duties devolving on the office, and he
n°the should be able to show that the office was
4,11 erpaid
was
bo into
Intinfryll.l3lllE, having been one of the Committee of
the payment of this office some years ago,
expehaand ion this
that he thought there was no lavish
—"itUrn in this department.

Mr. F. O'CONNOR could say from experience that
the duties of the Judge Advocate General were ex-
tremely arduous. The present Judge-Advocate had sat
for several weeks upon an inquiry respecting him, and
he had really round a great deal to do.—(Laughter.)
Mr. B. OSBORNE said it was not hi: in+ontio ► to
divide, though he thought all the duties of the Ju lge-
Advocate might be performed by his deputy.
Vote agreed to, as were the following:-
19,1611. for the expenses of the Royal Military
Asylum, &c.
80,3091. for the expenses of the volunteer corps.
15,5071. for allowances and rewards for military
services. _ _ _

26,0001. further vote for the pay of general officers.
Mr. HUME remarked on this vote that he thought
the number of general officers too large.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said the way general officers were
paid was perfectly disgraceful. They absolutely made
their money out of the savings of the regimental
clothing. Some of them, as, for instance, the Marquis
of Londonderry no doubt lost money by the system, but
the system itself was what he complained of. It was
no use, however, to talk upon this subject to the House
of Commons. Few Members knew anything about the
army, and still fewer cared about it.
Mr. F. MAULE said this question had been discussed
twenty times, and it had never been found that any better
system than the present could be adopted. It was a sys-
tem that worked well for the army, and that was econo-
mical to the country.
Mr. HUME said a majority of the House had, after
inquiry, agreed to the continuance of the existing system,
and he, therefore, was not prepared to raise a discussion
upon the subject. At the same time he did not approve
of the system.
Mr. F. MAULE said it.was impossible for any gene-
ral officers to make money unfairly by the existing
system.

Sir W. CLAY thought the system very objectionable.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said if the army clothiers were
examined before a Committee, they would prove that
many general officers made from 8001. to 1,000/. a year
by regimental clothing. They were making their gene-
ral officers army clothiers, nothing else.
57,0001. for charge of full pay of retired officers.
6,0001. (in part), for charge of half-pay and allowances
of retired officers.

47,3861. for charge of half-pay and reduced allowances
of officers of disbanded foreign corps, &c.
29,530/. (in part) for charge of pensions of widows, &c.
38,0001. (in part) for charge of allowances on compas-
sionate list, &c.
26.7741. for charge of Chelsea and Kilmainham hos-
pitals.
223,8101. (in part) for charge of out-pensioners of
Chelsea hospital, &c.
37,5001. for superannuation allowances, &c.
These resolutions were ordered to be reported to the
House to-morrow (this day), and

The House then resumed.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

A message from the Lords informed the House that
their Lordships had agreed to the following Bills:
Habeas Corpus Suspension (Ireland)—London and
Blackwall Railway (Connecting Branch)—Edinburgh
and Northern Railway (Roscobie, Keltyhead, and Glen-
craig, Branches, &c.), without amendment—Great
Northern Railway (Isle of Axholme Branch), with
amendments—Monkland and Kirkintilloch, Ballochney,
and Slamannan Railways Amalgamation or Sale or
Lease and Amendment or Repeal of Acts, with an
amendment.

INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this Bill,
Sir L. O'BRIEN observed that, as he had opposed
this Bill when first introduced, he wished to say that he
hoped the amendments made to it would be favourably
considered in another place. He should not press his
opposition further.
Colonel DUNNE expressed his entire dissent from the
Bill, which he still thought calculated to do great injury
to Ireland.

On the question that the Bill do pass,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the insertion of
a clause providing that notice of sale should be given in
all cases to remainder men; a personal notice wherever
possible, or in other cases an equivalent notice.
The lause was inserted.

Mr. MONSELL (in the absence of Mr. Bouverie)
moved the insertion of the following clause:—" And be
it enacted, that no assurance under this Act shall be sub-
ject to the further or additional duty (of equal amount
with the duty on a lease, or bargain and sale for a year),
with which conveyances by a single deed are by any Act
either expressly or by reference made chargeable; and
that, in lieu of all other stamp duty whatsoever (except
the progressive duty), there shall be chargeable on all
assurances under this Act on which the purchase or
consideration money therein or thereupon expressed
shall not amount to 2,000/., an ad valorem duty of 6s.
for every 501. of such purchase or consideration money,
and the like sum for any smaller or fractional part of 50/.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that from fiscal considerations he must on principle ob-
ject to the introduction of the provision.
Mr. MONSELL supported the clause as calculated to
encourage that which was generally admitted to be a
point of great importance, the sale of estates iu small
portions.

Mr. B. OSBORNE also supported the provision. The
alleviation of the stamp duties in Ireland was most es-
sential to the material interests of that country.
The Earl of LINCOLN hoped the Hon. Gentleman
would not divide the House on this motion, because in so
doing he might imperil the success of the measure itself;
and, still more, prejudice the satisfactory revision, which
he hoped would be at an early period, of the whole
system of stamp duties on the transfer of landed property
in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) There was no question but
that this measure must be followed up by more, tending
in this and in other particulars to ameliorate the social
condition of the sister country.
Mr. HUME said it was quite clear that if the Govern-
ment wished the Bill to be of use in Ireland they
would listen to the suggestion of the lion. Member.
What was wanted in Ireland was the means of affording
employment to the labourers, and that could only be
done by facilitating the transfer of land.
Mr. GOULBURN expressed a hope that the lion.
Member would not persist in his amendment, as if agreed
to it would tend to render incumbrances more numerous.
—(Oh, oh.) A revision of the stamp duties on the
transfer of land was much rehired, and he was sure
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would do right to take
that subject into serious consideration.
Mr. EWART was of opinion that the whole of the
stamp duties on the transfer of land both in England
and Ireland ought to be revised,
Mr. HENLEY thought that by making one conces-
sion the Government had drawn down upon themselves
the present one for a remission of the stamp duties in
Ireland. He must oppose the amendment.
After a few words from Mr. DRUMMOND and Sir A.
BaooLE,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the clause
Against it
„Majority —s9
The clause was consequently lost.
Sir L. O'BRIEN moved two clauses as riders to the
Bill—the first to prevent selling more of an estate than
was necessary to clear off the incumbrances; the second
to prevent the family mansion from being sold until the
outlying parts of the estate had been found insufficient
to redeem the mortgage.
The SOLICITOR- GENERAL opposed the clauses
on the ground that they would operate injuriously on
the general effect of the Bill.

Sir W. WALSH supported the clauses, which he
contended would in some degree correct the injurious
operation of the Bill. He had no desire to prevent the
sale of heavily incumbered estates in Ireland, but he
was most desirous to prevent small incumbrancers or
tenants for life forcing property into the market unne-
cessarily at a time when it could only be sold at a
ruinous price.
Colonel DUNNE also supported the clauses, which,
After a few words from Mr. GROGAN, were nega-
tived.

The Bill was then passed.
PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND, No. 2) BILL.
The House having gone into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. GOULBURN, having remarked upon the prac-
tice of making advances to Ireland out of the consoli-
dated fund, said that the advance made in 1847 was to
be paid in a certain number of instalments. The object
of the Bill was to repay out of the consolidated fund the
sum of 1,000,000/ which would otherwise be available
for the general resources of the empire. If Ireland was
to pay the money, it should go into the consolidated
fund, and the sum necessary for Ireland be voted out of
that fund. But if the Government meant to relieve
Ireland altogether from the payment of this sum, they
so—they ought to declare at once that it
could
dt
not be levied without impoverishing the Irish
population, and then ask Parliament for the amount
distinctly stating what were the public works to which
it was to be applied, instead of leaving the matter in
the hands of the Treasury, with power to continuo those
works which had already proved so useless and unpro-
ductive.
Mr. HUDSON protested altogether against the prin-
ciple of the Bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
that the object of the Bill was simply to enablo said
money the
Treasury, through the Board of Works, to lend
d mg
to the grand juries on presentment for the piurnptotsheinokf
completing such works as the grand juries
proper—the works to be carried on unertohtnteirioewnn
superintendence. The Government did not intend
to introduce the machinery of the Board of Works, or
otherwise interfere with the mode of outlay, but leave
that altogether to the counties themselves. At present
he did not think it would be advisable for this country
to call on Ireland for repayment; but the Government
would do so the moment they saw that Ireland was in a
sufficiently prosperous condition to respond to the call.
Mr. CARD WELL took the same view of the measure
as the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the Uni-
versity of Cambridge, hoping the House would not de-
part from the ordinary mode of expending money drawn
from the consolidated fund.
Dr. BO WRING regretted that Parliament had no
security against these loans to Ireland being converted
into gifts, either by that country's inability or unwil-
lingness to repay. Ho complained, too, of the unsatis-
factory nature of the accounts of the Board of Works.
Indeed, the whole state of Irish expenditure demanded
a searching investigation, for from the Treasury down-
wards there seemed to be an utter helplessness to pro-
tect the revenue. The evil was intolerable, and ought
to be put an end to.
Major BLACKALL said that it would be found that
the loans which were given to Ireland were as fairly
paid back as any given to this country. The Hon.
Member for Liverpool, he thought, would see that his
objection to this loan, namely, that the object for
which the loan was intended was not stated, was met
by the Bill which specified the objects of the loan. The
House should pause before it refused to give its sanc-
tion to a Bill which would prove a very great boon to