The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-17 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 16.

The SPEAKER tcok the Chair at Four o'clock.
GLASGOW, DUMFRIES, AND CARLISLERNILW.
On the motion for the further consideration o: the ri
on the Glasgow, Durnfrirs, and Carlisle Rai*ay Bill.
into
Mr. HOPE JOHNSTONE, moved that it be takers
conside:ation upon that day six months. From theo
noise that prevailed it was very difficult in tha galled Y
catch the precise import of the Hon. Genileman's 01 ioe,;;
vations. He was understood to call the attention of du,_
Rouse in the first place to the report of the Board of T r so.
on the railway communication afforded by the Caledonian line:
The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read extracts k' On
-
printed paper to the tollowing purport : lie
•‘ The Caledonian Hadway follows the route which, on ;bin
grounds, was preferred by the Government Commission; both

41, and by the Board of Trade and Committees of „
Howes of Parliament in 1345, as giving better trunk x°".
munication for all the more important streams of traffic.' ia
It was unsuccessfully
6 . opposed before all of these trio'
n
be the promoters of the Glasgow, Dumfries, and Ca ru,;! -
scheme. a of
"In their report of the 13th of March, 1845, the Boar, t.
Trade siate:l that • it is quite clear that the trhffie from be° t
I V
Ind to the south would not be sufficient at present to surei.,
two competing systems; and that if the one be sanetiai p
hit
ihe other, or so much of the other as directly confPet."' Lin
it, mu-t be rtieilted. In this point of view, the Caleilo
and the Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle lines are absoilute.
ll

inconsistent with each other.'
wi'tteei
The de-islet. of last year was arrived at by the C°m-early
of both Houses -as Parliament after ,he fullest itsciairy, n of
one hundred witnesses having been examined in the Hoe !retie.
Commins ; and it having been admitted by both le apt to
terongheet the proceedings :hat the traffic was insufaci
justify the construction of both lines. '
- t hereaiter the Committee on ihe Bill. in their reptl.rtet...°
the Howe, stated—• A Report by the Board of Trade hrits„,_o
m°:
referred to your Committee, and the decision of yOU
tire
re.
mittee apli ars to be substantially in accordance With
com,i.endations
N cisntai in such report.'
-• evertheless, thene Gld tsgow, Dumfries, and Cu-lisle se, hems.__
has beer. again brought tot ward this session, and the Coma 11 7,:
on the Hill has declared the preamble of the Bill pro,/'
thereby directly reversing the del berate judgment of the' be..
gislat
Theyurp
, a..7.dctoefdthceertoatihnerbrtrainbeubletasispbrsefio,orseedreit eyrrea
the
to.
Caledonian Cwanpany. for the accommodation of the jester
traffic, on which their calculations of last ear were ft:l'oord'
and nave thus dew ived the Caledonian Company of• all lateral
traffic for 7,1 miles of thvir line, being the portion beetWeell
Carlisle and Lanark.
" This decision, if confirmed, is calculated• more especially
during the present pressure on capital, to inflict serious. injury
on the Caledonian Ratiway. which involves an expenditure of
upwards of two millions sterling, and which is nt w being; exe.
cued with all possible expe ition, upwards of ten this. usaod
men being at present engaged on the works.
•tty "der these ciremustances, the presen' appeal is ref tneoSsi
fully made to the House. for the protection of a great no !ki'inof
.. ie k w ich was undertaken and contracted for on the fa 'land
the preference awarded to it by the Legislature last YeLsvf'ould
on the distinct understanding that the opposing scheme ,_.
liot receive ,he sinction of Parliament. The question
is;cni li'oen
ther the decis on of the Legislature last ear, or the"- 11_ being
of the Committee this year, is to be sustained,.
the leSte„`•
entirely inconsitent with, and subversive of the forioletr.o
-It was quite impossible that the report referred to
of Trade on that Bill could not but take with the p . _
1 ulated to Make a
was very certain that that report was calculated
full inquiay
great impression on the public mind. Atter the u
totally
that had been made, the decision of the Committee was
_ut.__
inconsistent with the decision given by the Committee elar
olsf
the last session, and also with the report of the elt
cult
tihbl it'll rldt
Trade. He would beg to impress on the House thentlAT
te
re
of reconciling the present decision with the vere-e ak,
turned by the Committee last year. On the Iwo
already in progress by the Caledonian ital.-
to,ooo n had been employed, and upwards of half a in"-
4
me
~e mon, y had been actually expended. The Hon. Gentleman
then alluded to the speech of the chairman of the company iat
a meeting held after the decision of the Committee, in whch
he remarked strongly on the proceedings of the oniniittee,
wire after having induced the complainants to embark their
capital, at a great risk, had deprived them, by a recent decision
of some of their anticipated returns. 'I he Committee is
arriving at a decision had made an election in arriving at theier
verdict which had turned out to be a most unfortunate their
He thought it right to state these things, because frogs
`2,000,000/. tu 3,000,M0/. had been expended by the Caledo;
titan Railway, in order to meet the wants of the very district :0
accommodate which the Committee bad passed another line
it
its great. and serious injury. He did _ not tbinasuch
was consonant wish true policy to conssnt to ,be
a competing scheme. On these grounds, which be fettee".,e
had slated must imperfectly, he was unwilling, considerllls"_4
state of public business, to trespass longer on the
would, therefore, conclude by moving as an famendmen Chit
the report be considered that day six months.
The motion having been seconded, .„„e of
Sir WILLIAM CLAY said, as he was the ellair,_•i3iii,
the Committee, the decision of whom, with respect to tni;i4...,
they were called upon to reverse, the House would, Pe
"tor° 1-
- /.
expect that he would trouble them with a very few ()bier .
,t -
oil the subject. He had he s.ronge-t impression that th which
Heuset, O
was not the proper tribunal for trying those quest,,,janamight•
were remitted to Select Committees up stairs. He tonal
however, be excused it he alluded briefly to a matter pe who
to himself and to the other members of the Committee.... 'rho
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Renfrewshire 0%11.'1j-tit, at
Stewart), whom he saw in his place, had thought it very
a public meeting of the Caleeonian Cotniany, cistos
„ that
grave imputations on the Members coinn°"l that
Committee. He had thought proper to
t staan:l •tbaC
the report of the Committee was URI"- •tteet
if the House confirmed the report of toe C•itajouldi eels,
that the public would withdraw all their confidence into How
sions, and that no property would be secure
was sitting, but that there was a House Id be
opinions of certain Noble Dukes and Marquises !cult the
taken at their intrinsic value, anti where, ln d" r'etted
decision of the Committee would be reversed. He re!
that the Hon. Member had so far forgotten himself as 0
eu'Ld
such an observation, because the Members of that liouvsoiv74
most arduous and important duties to discharge,
liihnould be
immense interests, and it was not right that they . _ , ;,„„
rendered more anxious and annoyed by any such paint_eit I_l4
potations cast upon them, and especiallwhen they dd_ 71h
wanted any fre''
deserve them. But if
there was
me inconvenience of dig'
proof of the extre to of "Lhoardes twhere the
which Committees of the
cussions on the decisions
Cwaa, e ds
ao nil
oa ne
ument Companyw b i toh the
ncl
that proof be held in his hand in the shall
the hope of endeavouring then to ever°
vhaerriounisisrpearrteicsuelnatrast.ioans, t
set tOO%
iltehindt'erminate at Dumfries instead of eingri4
r 0
the House
e Cos :hwai
nc. had
yi
tatFrerei
their decision. members °f
ohlavaemdaapredsetnot pbryelst:einest to a Committee of the House of Cell's.
ttcraohaourotil it, ,s:
Carlisle
ea ands
linetot i in
through
aa.dgdwoi trwioonngtthoai nuot
Nithsdale t h
we
„..ierrto
C not a shorter
res, tb°
real distance from Carlisle as
aledonian, wheline
to Glasgow by the 1-4:0
donian line was 1
o- 51, whilst the Nithsdale
only
1-a • and even by a short line passed t"ii
msts•
year, the distance would be reduced to 116 miles. The ' see
tion they had ' to consider was, whether they should be Fool
ven'ed
grounds, from
acceding to the construction of a railwatf,rn vital
because the Caledonian Railway had expended --'' t•
inihconstrueting a line oely accommodating a portion of the di,tclect,
and
dere were no dissentient landowners to the Nithsdale Prloo.
it would intersect great mineral, agricultural, god ctiott
mercial districts; and whether they were to refuse to so° oes
lines required by the wants of districts, simply beeann sot
which had been sanctioned by Parliament, but which Olmoss
offer that accommodation, wished to have no competiti°' et to
Caledonian Railway completely broke down with reels_ it'
their through traffic. The Nithsdale would interfere
care..
The The Committee sat for fourteen days, and after the sots
_coy
fel and anxious consideration of the whole evidence, to2e pis
nisnously came to the conclusion on the subject that in
d onlY
was required for the wants of the district. He WOO slide
lately
further add that the promoters of the line bad comp interfere
out a strong case of local traffic, and that it did not in the
with the Caledonian line. He would leave the matter would
hands of the House, with the firm impression that tb.ey_ of the
see the propriety of not interfering with the decision
Committee. tsarist°.
Mr. P. M. STEWART wished to make a few 0 . ._ refere
in explanation of the question before the House, and lie
holders 6
ence to what be had said at a meeting of the share
ta ,ing.
fortnight ago, and about which there wassome tnistodercao "
aonittee
What he stated was rather a compliment to the
ev,„ sure
and the House than otherwise. He stated that 1.1..,_ coo•
prised at the decision of the Committee, and that I! ssnion
mittee and the House understood the real state of Of gusto.
• • which had been ,
they would not agree with the decision flit Pl*
to, All the Caledonian CoaVvlY. 'anted ear

thing which every Englishman required. The decision which
411. e Committee had come to in June this year was precivly
'different to the decision in July, 1845, when the two
lines underwent an investigation for six weeks, ending
in the approval of the Caledonian Company, and he
rejection of the other. He stated at the meeting that he was
sure the Committee were not aware of the merits of the case,
else they would not have come to such an unjust decision.
Ile stated also that there was still the report to be considered
When the House of Commons cou:d be appealed to on the sub-
ject; and if such reports were not to be considered in a bona
Jide manner, to bring them before the House under that name
would be a mockery. It this consideration`was not successful,
reversing the derision, he said they had then the House
tf Lords to apply to, where any aristocratic witnesses
that might be taken would only be estima,ed at the intrinsic
value of their evidence. He stated this, because ,ne Noble
Duke, who was adverse to the Dumfries line last year gave
evidence iu its favour this year. He said then that it justice
was to be done, this decision must be reversed. When the
Committee met, they seemed to have been under the impres-
sion that they were proceeding to a new trial of an old subject,
and, accordingly, the other party moved for the evidence of
last year.

An Hox. :viEMBER, here rose to explain, but was called to
•der.

Mr. .13. M. STEWART continued to say that he had his in-
formation from those who were better acquainted with the de-
tails than himself,, and he certainly was informed that counsel
--she thought M. Cockburn—applied for the evidence of hist
ear, but it was refused by the Cotr.'!'ittee, What, then,
e asked, were those facts which had aff qqed the decision of the
Comm4.ttee of last year ? There were two schemes proposing
to proceed into Scotland by Carlisle ; these two were brou:..ht
befrsee the public.—Commissioners were appointed by the Board
of Trade to investigate both of them--the very same schemes
as were now before the House. Thee Commissioners
Laying made their investigation, gave their decision in favour
of the Caledonian, as the best of the two schemes. That CA 'll2 -
ftinien was appointed in 1841, but it was not till 1844 that
inbseriptions could be get up sufficient for the company pro-
ceeding with their operations. Here h, claimed the help of the
toard of Trade, for they had interfered in a most obvious
'inner. The Board gave their decision in favour of the Ca-
iedonian, because, in their opinion, there was not traffic suffi-
cient for both lines. Both schemes, however, were now
brought before the House. He would not me' tion the sums
expended in the contest, for he thought it would cast a slur on
that House, that
_public undertakings must be burdened with
so great a cost. The Caledonian passed both Houses last year,
stud on the 31st July it received the royal assent. Since
then contracts had been entered into, as many as 10,000
Illen were employed on the line, and as much as
200,000,. had been laid out, although the other scheme had
been put forward as not being a competing line ; but the
chairman of the Nithsdale Company said at a meeting of that
company that they might rejoice, for they had broken the
back of the Caledonian at last. The map wa. faith-
fully drawn as regarded the districts through which this line
was proposed to pass. Was there anything, he would a-k
the Hon. Member, required in a map beyond showing di--
tinctly the juxta-pos tion of the railroad ?—( Hear, hear.)
And as regarded the traversing of the country, and the juxta-
Ignition of the railroad, he would maintain that
tlVe map was sufficient for every purpose of that nature. It, was
alleged that it represented the line as too near DumMes, and
too far from Carlisle. The original plan of the Caledonian
was laid down by Mr. Locke. the engineer, and Annan was in-
cluded in it. The Board of Trade ordered him to draw it out
in its present shape. It was professed that there should be,
instead of one branch as originally proposed, a south branch
springing from the main trunk line at Carlisle, and a north
branch near Glasgow. But what had they done ? They bad
awarded the construction of those branches to their opponents.
Now he would ask the House to consider this most impor-
tant expenditure of 2,000,0001. on the construction of one
line, It had been plainly stated that these was traffic only for
one line, and that the Caledonian line was merely a b per cent.
line with all its expenditure. The Committee appeared to have
acted in a most anti-Caledonian spirit.—a spirit for which he
could not account. For a length of seventy miles there was a
strictly Caledonian line. By this fell swoop of the Committee
they had refused to give the Caledonian, Ur a length of seventy
miles, one single branch.—( Hear.) It had been reported by
'the Board of Trade that there was traffic only for
one line. The Caledonian had faithfully discharged
their duties. Why were they not permitted to go
cot and finish their work ? And if they did not
Properly carry out the spirit of their undertaking, let Parlia-
ment visit them with all the vengeance they could exercise, but
let them not pretend to say that this line was mit a competitor.
He would ask them to say whether between 300,0001. and
400,000/. had been expended by the Caledonian Company ? He
asked whether that was the way to dispose of the public money
without any reasons being assigned ? He asserted that he was
bet interested in this matter, further than beim': a director of
the Caledonian Company, and he was glad to be able to afford
that information to his Hoe. Friend, who appeased to feel no
sympathy for him. He had no interest in it beyond that. His
constituents and friends were strongly in Savour of the line, and
last session he presented a petition from them in favour of the
Bill, but after the Legislature had given its decision in
favour of the Caledonian, all the constituents on
earth should induce him to play so foul a part, to turn round
against those who, under the sanction of Parliament, had em-
barked their capital in the undertaking, and support their old
volapetitor, who, like a snake, had been lying in the grass for
'the last few months. In truth, the present Bill was the same
as the one which came before the House in the last session of
Parliament, only it was under a differerit name; but he trusted
the House would not allow it to pass, and at the same time
require the Caledonian proprietors to complete the task which
they authorised them to take in the last session of Parliament.
Mr. HUME wished to ask whether the Committee were
unanimous or not ? _ _

Sir W. CLAY was understood to reply that they were per-
ectly- so.
have
JAMES STEWART said it was not his intention to
tve addressed the House, but after what had fallen from his
'non. Friend the Member for ,enfrewshire, who appeared
aotieus to support a huge monopoly, he felt it indispensibly
bteems,s Clary to trouble the House with a few ob,ervations upon
important Bill Hi' Hon. Friend had toid the
4.l°4se that the Committee upon the Caledonian Bill
for six week., and that at the end of that
period, after carefully consiCering the mat,er, the Committee
Mme to the decision that the preamble to the Bill had been
Proved but his Hon. Friend carefully avoided stating that
Committee was not unanimous in that opinion. He did not
tell the House that the Noble Lord the illemb.r for
Ws
opposed to the decision of the Committee. Nov with
regard to the merits of the Bill itself, let him remind the
House. that Ayr was one of the most important counties in
Scotland.—a county which abounded
andinmroircharntnerals that were
rapidly. anti daily becoming more LondtLeateo he
had no doebt the knowledge of this fact welgheevoe
mitteee in coming to this decision. The line, too, passed through
the whole of the important towns of the district who had peti-
tioned strongly in favour of the line. Most of the praicipal
landed proprietors were favourable to the line, and to show the
estimation in which it was held, he might mention on its being
Made kne,wn that the Bid had passed it was made the subject
of a ge;neral rejoicing.
M. FOX aIAULE said, before the House divided, he
must be allowed to say a few words upon this important
subject. He was connceed with neither corniia.y.
and was only interested in obtaining the best trunk
line from 'England to the North of Scotland.
In 1839, it would be remembered, a Commission was ap-
pointed by Government to examine the county, with a view of
discovering 'the best trunk line from England to Scotland.
The Commission discovered, after a very careful investigation,
that the county was exceedingly poor, and that any line of
railway running through it must depend upon the through
traffic to Edinburgh anti Glasgow. They were, therefore, in..
clined to think that only one line could be maintained, and they
reported what they thought would be the best and proper line.
In 1841 the line laid down by the Commissioners was adopted
ofby a company who enrolled themselves under the name or title
the Caledonian Company, and in the course of time ano-
ther company presented itself to the country under the name
_0! title of the Glasgow, Dumfries, and Cariisleßailway. Both
tllese schemes were considered first of all by the Board of Trade, who came to the same opinion as the Commissioners,
that the country would not afford a sufficiency of
traffic to maintain two great trunk lines and they
decided that the line which ought to be selected
and adopted by Parliament was tie Caledonian Railway.
The Committee, after sitting for six weeks, and taking the
most voluminous evidence, came to t: ,e decision that the Calte-
d*nian was a right and proper trunk line to be given to Scot-
land. They rejected the preambles of the other Bills, because
they found that the country would nut admit of two railways.
Its 1845, after great expense and a contest of six weeks
in the Committee of that House—he could not say how long
elsewhere—they attained their Bill. They were now employ-
ing 10,000 men on their works; they had entered into
engagements for a million of m iney in their con-
trasts, and there was also a large sum fur which
they were engaged. The present Company was one not ori-
ginating in wild speculation. It was a bona fide Company,
acting upon the faith of Parliament, entering upon their winks,
and eatrrying them on with the greatest possible speed. The
Caledonian Company requested to be allowed to produce be-
fore the Committee evioence of the best possible nature,
Densely, the evidence given before the Committee last year ;
that application had not been granted.—( Hear, hear. )
Prom a report which he held in his hand, it appeared
that Mr. Sergeant Wrangham made this application, for
Mile reason unknown to him. That evidence had not
been received. If the House concurred in the decision of the
Committee, the effect would be to deprive the half of Scotland
of a trunk line. He hoped, therefore, that Hon. Members
would exercise that power vested in them of reviewing the de-
cisions of their Committees. If the flouts consented to aban-
dont its right to do so, there was an end to the matter. He en-
treated the House to take it into their serious consideration.
Ile thought if such a decision was to be acted on, it would
risk the carrying out of the railway system throughout Scot-
land, and materially interfere with the application of ca-
pital.-'
An Holt. Maxus whose name we could not learn, spoke
in favour of the decision of the Committee on the Nithsdale
line, as it would open an important mineral and agricultural
district, at present overlooked from the absence of railways.
The mineral riches of Ayrshire at present were very great,
there being 34 iron furnaces in blast, and the connexion with
Dumfriesshire would be a great service in bringing the coal
and iron of the former county to the latter, and in taking back
agricultural produce to the manufacturing districts of the west.
Sir EDWARD COL EBROKE said that on the present
question it was important that they should have before them
the grounds of the first decision on the merits of the two lines.
He did not wish to consider the question as a shareholder, but on
public grounds,and heappealed to the Chairman of theCornmittee
of last year, when the whole question was fully considered, to
state whether the inquiry went to show that the
country was too poor to support the two lines of rail-
way. If the fact were
pre-
sumed, had taken place so, no alteration, he
since last year to justify snottier
decision. They must, it the joint decision was the right one,
best
and if the Caledonian was the to supply the general
wants of the country, support it, and reject the Nithsdale
scheme.
as he had been Mr. PARKER, nappealed to, rose
.
to explain. It was not his
intention
o rise
and offer
an explanation as to the
proceedings
of l
of lasta
);o s
et
ew year.
r
'
It was perfectly true that the Committee
e
divided on this subject. The four alenabers for Winchester,
Cheshire, and Barnstaple joined with him (Mr. Parker)
the opinion, that for the general purposes of Scotland, that was
to say for local traffic—( Hear, hear )—they considered, and he
saw no reason why he should now change his opinion, that as
a national hoe, and one calculated to accommodate all parts of
the north of Scotland, the Caledonian was the bet. trunk
Lee. —( Hear, hear.) If, therefore, there was to be a
Caledonian line, then they had to consider what
was to become of that most important population situate in the
mineral district in the west of Scotland, a line for which dis-
trict should, in point of fact, be considered w,th respect to
Dumfries. He was sorry to be forced to say that last year the
Committee came to the conclusion that these two lines could
not exist together.—( Hear, hear.) He was bound under the
present circumstances to state the reasona of that decision
The Committee thought that they were called upon to sanction
the Caledonian and reject the other, as they dot not
consider it as well adapted for the traffic of the district through
which it would pass. The Noble Lord the member for Ply-
mouth was of a different opinion ; he thought that both lines
could exist at the same time. The Committee, s heref re, with
the view of leaving
.the whole matter to another decision, con-
cluded that the decision, on the branch te-Dumfriesitsbould be
XeStMek. 11107 40 MI 7_41 to 0_440011 *AO!