The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-28 00:00:00

GROUP XIII.

Thia Committee met to-day at the usual hour, Sir William Clay
i 31 /ire chair, when the case was resumed on behalf of the

CAL. MOn LLIN (SANGICOLST
and in op position to the case ot the promoters of the
NORTH BRITISH (CARLISLE EXTENSION).
Mr. Collister, civil engineer, was recalled and examined. Ile said
thero were One or two points which he had not explained on Tues-
day. One was that he had .not added to the estimate of the North
British scheme tho expense of the application to Parliament for their
Bill (30,00010, which would make the total estimate 850001., in-
stead of 66 'MU, as stated by them. The other point was in re-
ference to their entering the Carlisle station. The N'orth British
proposed to use the same station as the other line's that converged at
Carlisle—the Lancaster and Carlisle, the Mary-port, &c. The level
of tie former line was different in level to the others, to the extent
e eight feet, whereas, the Parliamentary deviation only admitted
of two feet. Besides, there was not room for more than the four
companies that intended to Liao it, and Caere was not land scheduled
to make up the difference:
Cross-examined by Mr. LIDDELL— There were no lines of railway
In Carlisle at pre.sent north of Crown-street. He was aware that there
was a branch of the Maryport line on the same level as the North
British line np to Crown-street. The same was the case with the
Lancaster and Carlisle line. He was not aware that the North
British scheme had scheduled land at Crown-street, in order to effect
3urictiv. The difference in the levels took place at Borough-
street. The Lancaster and Carlisle line rose from Crown-street to '
Borough-streat, which it crossed at 18 feet elevation; whereas the
North British crossed at an elevation of only 10 feet, according to
the plans. We was aware that the /and for the joint station was
between Crown-street and Borough-street. If land in that position
""as obtalaed, and the North British sanctioned to join
the Meryport line, then the juncticg would take place

by the North British with a gradient of lin 270. That was an ob-
jectionable gradient at such a position. Though there was a station
, at the place ofjuneti,fil, still it would be a through traffic that would
pass along theft, and therefore the gradient was objectionable. Sup-
posing the North British line to be elevated two feet in crossing
Borough-street, that would flatten the gradient all along to about 1 in
500. The Caledonian, in its approach to Carlisle, went up on a
gradient of 1 in 110, and again descended on a gradient of 1 in 420.
There was not much objection to this, as the descending gradient
being so slight, it overcame the effect of the ascending gradient.
The CHAIRMAN admitted that they need not pursue the point fur-
ther, as it did not appear from the evidence that there was any seri-
, ous engineering difficulty. It was more a question of property than
engineering.
Witness—He had set down the expenses of the Caledonian appli-
cation to Parliament at 40X001., of this about 8,0001. was set down,
for the Langhoira branch. He did not know whether it was usual
to add such expenses to the estimates of a line, but he always
did it. He was not aware that the surveyors of the North
Britieft were interfered with by the order's of the Duke of
Buccleuch as well as the Caledonian surveyors. The
Caledonian line was the first he had been engaged
on. The works were not let by competition, but they w ere let befothree
the passing of the Bill conditional on its enactment. Ile thought
system of public competition decidedly objectionable astt,nerycould
get works done that way at any price. lie knew the
Miller had constructed large works last year on th
had heft extensive experience in making railways ine Scotland. Mr.
ratails,maankele
mated at 6,0001., but which cost 1,8001. .T
Glasgow Railway, but in that he had made a tunnheel wathilgelhaahle eesattii--
of
fot
it was made for a double, but that mate of the tunnel was for a single eaalughlet
the difference. The base of the embankment he calculated at ten
tae).b.aerdthfiarrtyw-thwinostfeeente.
set down at one to one-half. Mr.
Miller calculated
yards breadth. The slopes he
The price of cuttingie ea
bbreadetth
daat
ve ttih e
atb
ase
rock, and ordinary earth ls. 3d.; red sandstone Is. I id.
a yard. lie estimated the quantity of cutting to be nearly the
same as that furnished by Mr. Miller; but the great differ-
ence between them was in the quantity
of embankment, which
he made 717,000 cubic feet more, and in the price set down for
the various works. With retard to the tunnel, he estimated it to be
501. a yard. The breadth of the tunnel he represented to be 28 feet.
The tunnel Mr. Blythe had set down at 321. a yard, He was not
aware that Mr. Miller had constructed a similar tunnel last year
tl raugh similar strata on the North British line at 301. a yard.
The CHAIRMAN did not see what the course of examination would
we end
eihn
tbhuat
at
idt
ti ffe
ee ere tat ca
led
olfavOpeintoiownelb:gtiwaetetnhetheleostew. o Tehnegineers
differ-
ence at present between the two in regard to the estimates was
230,0001.
Mr. LIDDELL said he was willing to leave the matter where it was
in the hands of the Committee, if the others would agree to the
same course.
Mr. CocßaußN could not consent to do se. They had Mr. Erring-
ton and Mr. Locke, the engineers, to call ; or, if the Committee
thought 11', he was willing that an independent engineer should go
down at the expense of the parties to survey the line, and report the
result of the Committee.
Mr. LIDDELL was quite willing to leave the matter as it was, and
let the Committee decide between the estimates ; but if the other
side were determined to go on in the course they named, they would
have to follow up their cross examination.
After some conversation the cross-examination was resumed.
The witness was then cross-examined with the object of showing
that similar bridges as those set down for the present scheme had
been constructed in that part of the country, and on the North
British line. He had set down the rails at 751bs. He was not aware
that the weight they had calculated was 691b5., and that that was
tee weight of the rails for the North British line. The price per ton
He calculated at 111. 10s., which he believed was the estimate of Mr.
Miller on another line.
Re- examined—The North British line bad been rather unfortu-
nate in their bridges, as he believed the Inspector General of Railways
could testify. 751bs. was the weight of rails on the Caledonian line.
He had calculated the present works at the same rate as those on the
Caledonian line. The works of the Caledonian were making by the
best contractors injthe world—Messrs. Bramington, Stevenson, and
111`Kenzie. The Caledonian Langhohn branch was opposed by the
two principal proprietors, the Duke of Buccleuch and Sir James
Graham. The line went through their property in slight cuttings and
embankments.
Mr. Locke, engineer, deposed that the Hawick line wens through
a thinly populated and mountainous district, and nothing could
justify ;t, unless it were the, through traffic. With regard to the
Edinburgh through traffic, fhe Caledonian line would sufficiently
accommodate Edinburgh, though if the North British line were
formed that would be a direct competing line with the Caledonian.
The Caledonian, with the branch now proposed, would accommodate
Langhohn sufficiently. He had gone over the estimates and sections
of the North British Extension, and he had also gone over Mr. Col-
lister's cross sections, and he perfectly agreed that the works would
cost what he had set down for them. Whether the present line was
sanctioned or not, the Caledonian would have to finish the whole of
their scheme, as the works were all contracted for. The branch to
Edinburgh from Carnwath was not only contracted for, but
in course of construction. He believed there was not
five miles on the whole line where the works were not
in operation. The difference in distance between Longholme and
Carlisle, by the two schemes, would be but two miles and a half in
favour of the North British. The gradients, however, were much
better on the Caledonian than on the other; the severest in the one
case being lin 75, in the other lin 150. Thus, for the purpose of
saving only two miles and a half, they would have two directly com-
peting lines. There would be no difficulty, In his opinion, in con-
necting the Caledonian Longholm branch with the Carobie coal-
fields. The difference from Edinburgh to Carlisle between the
Ilawick line and the Caledonian was three miles in favour of
the former, but the gradients and curves of the Caledoniam
were better. Under all circumstances, he felt that, if
both lines were constructed it would produce a ruinous
competition, which would end is a coalition. Witness also agreed
with Mr. Collister as to the difficulty of junction at the Carlisle ,
Central station. To let the North British in in the way they pro-
posed would destroy all the arrangements the other companies had
made with reference to this station.

Cross-examined—The station at Carlisle was not yet for and
by alt, ring the levels of the lines proposed to meet to
the stations,
the junction might be effected. He believed ie various lines
met on the same level at Crown-street. -
Ale could not speak
as to the amount of traffic between Co-....a51e and Edinburgh, and
therefore he could not say what amour the Hawick line would take
from the Caledonian. He did r..ut see any reason at present for a
direct line from Lmigholin Carlisle, in order to save 21/2 miles.
He had no objection if
traffic was developed, and of such a
a shorter line, that this 21/2 miles should be
character as to justit,a;
saved. He thcaght .that a little opposition was necessary,
but it ought
to be directed against lines that were already
establishe(l, and upon proper data, which they had net
here. With respect to the cuttings and the works, he
took his information from Mr. Collister, but he had a knowledge
CI the prices himself. Mr. Miller might have taken cross sections as
well as Mr. Collister, as it Was not necessaey to give them in the
deposited plans. The plans and sections of Mr. Miller, as deposited,
were such as he would have deposited himself.
Mr. Woof), civil engineer, said he went over the Hawick line,
and also over the estimates of Mr. Collister. He considered the
calculations he had made fair and reasonable.
Cross-examined—He constructed the Carlisle and Newcastle Rail-
way. He was a director of that line at the time. He was also en-
gaged in the making of the Brandliug Junction. He was a coal en-
gineer as well as a railway one.
Mr. Errington, civil engineer, gave evidence that he generally
concurred with the estimates of Mr. Collister. From his experience
of the works on the Lancaster and Carlisle, as well as on the Caledo-
nian, hp considered that, according to the sections submitted, the
works could never be constructed at the money. lie had sur-
veyed the south of Scotland, under the Government Commissioners,
aid then it was considered that the traffic would not yield more than
a fair return on 2y2 millions. Now, for the lines constructing and
proposed, there would be required about ten millions, requ,riug an
annual revenue of 800,0001. In that estimate, he set down the work-
ing expenses at 7001. per mile, which was the minimum rate.
Cross-examined—The Caledonian scheme was not intended to grasp
Edinburgh and Glasgow, but because it was considered the-traffic of
these cities, was necessary to make the scheme pay. He believed
that cattle were now carried to a much greater extent :han originally
expected. He had had some connexion with the Perth and Inverness
line, which went through a very difficult country. The pnposal of
that line was only admissable as a continuation of the great north
mail road. He would individually never have proposed the line, nor
should he Ike to have been a shareholder. 7he estimate of the
Caledonian originally was, he believed, 1,900,0001., but he could not
exactly say. The works, he believed, would cost 18,0001. or 19,0001.
a mile. He could not, however, speak exactly as to the amount at
that moment.

Mr. Tight, the architect of the station at Carlisle, examined—The
room at the station was very circumscribed, even for the four corn
panics that were arranged to occupy it, and he did not think a fifth
could be accommodated without great difficulty. The pa-rea of the
land on which the station was to be built was about CZ t feet long by
400 feet broad. The station would be 250 feet by 200.
Cross-examined—The area of the station was four acres and a
quarter, but that did not include the gas works which the Company
had bought, nor the land they had at Crown-street. The whole extent
of the ground up to the House of Recovery was 1,000 feet, but the
House of Recovery intruded in the space. He coal not say whether
that property was scheduled. He knew the Derby station, and that
a number of hues met there. The passengers met and departed on
the same side.
Re•exarnined.—The gas works were purchased for the pur-
pose of the; goods' traffic. They could not: accommodate the pas-
sengers further than proposed, except by lengthening the platform.
Mr. Swift, solicitor to the Lancaster and Carlisle Company, de.
posed that the station ground at Carlisle was in that Company's ea-
clu,ive possession ; and that in regard to the companies they had
already arranged with, and the convenience necessary to the public,
they con d not consent to another party coming in.
Cross-examined—They had powers in their Act to take land along
their line for stations to the extent of fifty acres, that was with the
consent of the proprietors. The land for the station they had ar-
ranged for. The quantity was four or five acres, but they could not
reach it without crossing Crown-street. They had not Parliamentary
powers to cross that street, but they had a Bill before Parliament to
meet that difficulty.
Re-examined—The area for the station could not be extended
without interfering with very valuable property.
This closed the case on behalf of the Caledonian Company.
The Committee then adjourned tin to-morrow at twelve o'clock,
when counsel will be heard in se- ninth,.
up the case on both sides.

The Select Commiti - ' GROUP XIV.
Bills comprised in appointed to consi ler the merits of the
morning.
group re-assembled at the usual hour this
Mr.
roth, roe in the Chair.
lI.TIVICOSPIIMEXC MINE.
The. Cross-examination of Mr. Sherrait, the!engineer :of the line,
.":as continued by Mr. MEREWEATIIER on beh.dt of the South-
Eastern Company. It was elicited that the South-Eastern line
joined the stAtions at Tunbridge hi a much more convenient manner
than the atmospheric, inasmuch as the one ran right out to the
Tunbridge and Hastings lines, whi e the carriages :and engines
lu
the atmospheric would have to be removed in order to run OR to
the Hastings line.

The :cross-examination and re-examination of the witness occu-
pied the whole of the day.

- The Committee adjourned at four o'clock till Monday, the Bth of
June.

GROUP XVII.

MANCUESTER AND SOUTHAMPTON,—
RAMSEY AND I/EDI:MIDGE BRANCH
(SOUTH-WESTERN).
Mr. Davis (in continuation from our Afternoon Edition) said—Now
these were the places to which a railway was to be made, and to
construct which the land of several persons was to be taken
witheut their consent. That owing to tue uncertain nature of the
water, craft could not not navigate for ten days in the month ; during
the remaining twenty they would be unable to do so. In ordinary
tides the craft could not approach these so-called important ports
nearer than a mile and a half, where they were unloaded, by the
aid of small boats. This would be evident when he stated
that the draught of colliers, of from 200 to 300 tons,
was thirteen feet. Then, the timber spoken of ;being
Southampton. floated up to Ming sad Redbridge, belonged to merchants of
ah
morea been
a reef route
bury obtPaltatng Meoudlat. bt7
rutetthhaennteiceastswityhioefhSnaoliws
as to
existed ; but the Great Western
roads for the Salisbury arid linelteovlim wry were now making tram-
of Frome and Wells, by which coalswootrd'bV-Pits in the vicinity
buryat 15. a ton, which would take away"tVnene in
i'valins-,
requiring coals from Stouthampton, at the rate of 25:1':tX it-
--
again, the line crossed two important streets in Southampton
Then,
level, which he considered was in itself a paramount objection tfto
the Bill, as the gates would have to be opened a number of times in
the course of a day ; and as a number of children were cots-
tinually playing in these streets, serious accidents could
not fail to occur. Ile then drew attention to the' abuses,
which he held, existed on the Great Western Railway. In
proof of this, he 'stated that that Company charged 20s. per ton for
conveying a ton of goods from the quays of Southampton, to London;
but if a person living in Cowes, for instance, sent a ton of goods to
the docks, they would convey them to London for 10s. per ton, thus
inflicting great injury on the traders of Southampton, and making an
arrangement went,hwh Dock
the Company, for their mutual advantage,
which Parliam y gave them their Powers, never
contemplated. In 1844, a memorial, signed by the most important
merchants of Southampton,
and by Mr. White, one of the directors
of the Great Western, was presented to the Corporation of South-
ampton, setting forth that the Railway did not afford sufficient fecal-
ties, that great delays took place and unnecestary expenses incurred
ds. The company in conveying goods 20
in the transmission of goo
mils gave a "regale" of bl. per cent., for 30 miles 101. per cent.,
and for 40 and under 50
111. Pes cent. ; but if they carried
;
passengers to Winchficld, :hey charged as for a distance of 40 miles
but in the case of goods, they charged only for 39 miles
by which the goods carried lost a rebate of 51. ;per cent. On these
grounds he called upon the Committee to reject the preamble of the
Bill, and In doings() to state his unbought conviction, for he attended
there without fee or reward, that If the preamble were passed it
would destroy Southampton as a port.
Mr. J. C. Knell, who had resided in Redbridge for the last thirty
years, examined by Mr. Davis—The trade of RRedbridge within the
last two years had much decreased. The depth of water at Red-
bridge was from ten to twelve feet during spring tides, and from five
to sixfeet at "neap" tides. At Eling the tides were about
the sane depth. The proprietor of the quays at these two
places could make aity charge he thought proper for
unloading a vessel. It often happened that the colliers c..tuld not
approach the quays, and that they were obliged to unload them in
the river by the means of barges

Cross-examined .by Mr. H:THERTON.—If the railway were con-
structed, the sca-borne trade wtth Redbridge would, no doubt, in-
crease to a small extent.

Re-examined by Mr. Davis.--lie proprietors of the quays were
not compelled to ,accommodate the merchacts. Goods sent by the
Southampton and Dorchester line to.the present station contiguous
to the docks, would avoid the dues now charged at the Southampton
quays.

Ify the Committee—Redbridge was not a place in which a large
trade could be centered, it was merely a fbnd of depot for the supply
of inland places. Although the Manchester and Southampton Rail-
way might Injure Redbridge and Eling, it combined great public ad-
vantages.
John Cooksey, a grocer at Southampton, deposed that a great por-
tion of the business had been transferred from the quays to the docks,
and that the dues received at the pier hadmsterially decreased. The
town thus suffered great injury. No desire bad been evinced on the

part of the Great Western, to reduce their fares, until the Manchester
and Southampton was projected. Since the present railway was
made, he considered that the trade of the town had decreased. This,
however, he attributsd to the Inefficient communication at presenr
afforded.
In his cross-examination he stated that the advantage afforded to
those sending goods to the docks to be conveyed by the South
Western, was not to promote the export trade, but to give a stimulus
to the docks.
Mr. Davis applied to have all the time and charge bills of the
Scuth Western from 1843 produced, in order to prove the statement
with respect to the differences of the charge to Winchfield tot pas-
sengerseifspeoliscsiitbolret.o tHhee
hCaodmipelatnsyo
ms tea td thatyh t
he Iva
to umi do
rpn
nr o dgu le
mall k thhwe
and goods.
bilTish,
up even an incomplete set.
This closed the case of the Corporation, with the exception of these
lAls.

—The Committee then adjourned till one o'clock to-morrow.

GEOUP XVIII.

EXETER, YEOVIL, .ELND DORCHESTER AND
LONDON, SALISBURY AND YEOVIL.
Mr. TALBOT, Q. C., opened the case on behalf of the Great West-
ern Company this morning. He stated that he laboured under con-
siderable disadvantages in consequence of his not having the same
opportunity of reply which his learned friend would possess. The prin-
cipal points upon which the Learned Counsel dwelt were, that competi-
tion would not be afforded by the continuation of the proposed line, that
they would effect a junction with the Bristol and Exeter line, and thus
secure the entire monopoly to themselves of the west of England.
The line supported by his Learned Friend Mr. Cockburn would not
sufficiently accommodate the ports of Plymouth and Falmouth, in
consequence of their present connexions with Southampton. By the
scheme proposed by the Great Western Company this accommodotion
would be afforded, and those ports restored to their former prosperity.
By the construction of the opposing line they would also seriously
damage the interests of the Southampton and Dorchester line, the
Chairman of their company having himself stated that the county
would not support two lines of railway. Connected with the other
_line, the scheme for which he appeared would accommodate a greater
population, and afford a means of communication with the northern
parts of England, and would also open up a communication with the
large coal fields of Radstock, and effect thereby a saving of as much
as ss. a ton to the consumers in the district through which the line
passed. The total estimate of their line IN as 1,800,0001. There was
little or no opposition on the part of the landowners. The Learned
Counsel concluded a very lengthened speech by stating that upon
a full and mature consideration be was satisfied that the Com-
mittee would sanction the measure for which he appeared, and that
of this contest would be satisfactory to the Committee, and conse-
quently satisfactory to the public.

J. Foster, merchant, of-Plymouth, was the first witness called,
who gave evidence in favour of the scheme of the Great Western
Company.

The Committee then adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow.

GDOUP XX,

The Committee met to-day at twelve o'clock, Mr. Sotherne in the
chair.

LONDON, HOUNSLOW, AND WESTERN
The case for the Bill having closed on Tuesday, the whole of the
sitting to-day was occupied in hearing evidence on the part of the
petitioning proprietors against the Bill.

Mr. AnilEst. opened the case on their behalf; after which Mr.
Fitch, and other market-gardeners along the course of the line were
examinad to prove that the line, while it would Injure their property,
would be of no advantage to them in point of public accommodation.
The Committee then adjourned at four o'clock till Monday week
next.

GROUP XXII,

IPSWICH, NORWICH, AND YARMOUTH.
. _ _

-
(Continued ftom our Afternoon Edition.)
Formal evidence as to the estimates, &c., having been given in,
fhec.ase for the promoters closed.

Mr. Sergeant kraPinr, on behalf the promoters of the Wavexey
Valley line, then addressed the Committee on the general case.
The room was then cleared, and on our re .admission,
The CHAIRMAN announced that the preamble of the Ipswich, Nor-
wich, and Yarmouth Railway was not proved ; that the preamble of
the Halesworth and Norwich Railway was not proved; that the
preamble of the Ipswich and Bury St. Edmunds (Norwich Ex-
tension) was proved ; that the preamble of the Norfolk Railway
(Extension to Stowmarket, &c.) was not proved; and that the
Waveney Valley and Great Yarmouth Railway was not proved.
The Committee were of opinion, however, that Yarmouth was en-
titled to a mere direct communication with London, and that the
Bungay and ace:es district was entitled to railway communication.
The committee adjourned tin to-morrow, to consider the clauses of
the Ipswichitrid Bury St. Edmund's Railway, and will then adjourn
to the Wednesday after the recoss, when they will proceed with the
Lowestoft and Beccles Railway and Drainage Bill.

GROUP XXXI.
PORTBURY iPIER AND :gaaLvirAir.
,t'( uumied from our afternoon Edition.
Several introduced into the) Bill with the
and the tolls clause having been revised,
santitnonf etwhe
clausesco matte having
the Bill was ordered ti/ ce reported, and the Conunittec adjourned.

GIIOUP XXXII.
OXFORD, woncEsTErt, AND WOLlTER-
(CliontainMuedPfrToi!N a
The Committee at tlO- ourAfateikNraoonCEllEditioSn).)
point ordered the room to be cleared.
On re-admission parties were told by the Chairman that various
matters had ':-ten discussed during the interval, but the conclusion
was ths.,. the Committee decided that the preamble of the Bill was
pro—. ed.

Mr. LAING did not know that the room had been cleared with a
view to considering this point, otherwise he would have interposed to
offer evidence on the part of opposing landowners as to the insuffi-
ciency- of the capital of the company and other matters.
The CHAIRMAN said the room had not been dearel at first for that
purpose, but the Committee would suspend the decision, that no in-
justice might be done to Mr. Laing's clients.

Mr. LAiNG said there was a line before ....... Committee almost
parallel with that before this Committee, through the same district
of country ; and his end would be gained if the Committee would
adopt a resolution which would have the effect of impeding the pro-
gress of this Bill, that both projects, this and the Hampton cud Ash-
church, might be considered together.
The CHAIRMAN had no power to do what had been asked ; but
lie would lay the circumstances of the ease before the House when
it came on to be considered there.
This was agreed on.
Mr. SELFE addressed the Committee on the part of the ironmas-
ters between Kidderminster and Dudley, with a view to obtain
clauses compelling the company to accommodate them with the
narrow gauge, and to revise their tolls.
The CHAIRMAN said the Committee were determined to revise the
tolls on the whole line, and would advise the accommodation of the
narrow gauge ; this request was very reasonable.
As some clauses were produced by opposing parties, and application
was made for time to c'nsider them,
The Committee adjourned at 3 o'clock till 2 o'clock to-morrow,
when they will meet to go through the clauses of the Bill.