The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-29 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, JULY 29, 1846.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
110 USE OF LORDS, July 28.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY took his seat on the Woolsack
at Five o'clock.
Messengers from the Commons brought up several Bills,
praying their Lordships' concurrence.
CHELSEA BRIDGE AND EMBANKMENT BILL.
On the motion of Lord CANNING, this Bill was read a
third time and passed.
The Earl of CLARENDON presented a petition from Mr.
Crowder, a solicitor, praying that the Glamorganshite Land
Bill be considered in the same position as if a certain non-
compliance with the standing orders had not been made.
BATHS AND WASHHOUSES BILL.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Joshua and
Thomas Watts, the proprietors cf the swimming baths in the
Peerless Pool, City-road, against the Baths and Washhouses
Bill.
MesFengers from the Commons brought up several Bills,
praying their Lordships' concurrence.
The Earl of RADNOR said he thought that the Nob"e and
Learned Lord should have inquired into the circumstances of
the case on the bringing up of the Bill yesterday.
Lord BROUGHAM explained.
The Bishop of LONDON said he had proved, as far as it
could be proved, that there was a probability of the money
on the loan being repaid. When his Noble and Learned Friend
looked into the Bill, though he might think this or that provi-
sion of tbe Bill might require modification, he would not throw
the weight of his powerful talents into the scale against the Bill.
After a few words from Lord BROUGHAM,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the Bill was not be.
fore the House, and when it was, they would avail them-
selves of any suggestions that might conduce towards the ob-
ject of this Bill.
Earl GREY thought it was premature to discuss this ques-
tion at present.

CORNWALL RAILWAY.
Lord BROUGHAM thought that the evidence on this Bill
should he printed and produced to the House.
Viscount TORRINGTON said he had no objection to the
production of the evidence in question.
Lord BROUGHAM gave notice that on Thursday he would
move that the evidence laid before the Cornwall Railway Com-
mittee be printed.
BUILDERS OF DUBLIN.

Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from the
builders of Dublin eomplaing of the privileges of
the guild of builders in the city of Dublin, and praying their
Lordships to establish perfect freedom to all.
METROPOLITAN BUILDINGS ACT.
Lord LANSDOWNE, in answer to a question by Lord
Portman, said he had seen the First Commissioner of the
Woods and Forests, who had received the Acts yesterday, and
had referred them immrdiate4 to the official referee.
NEWCASTLE AND CARLISLE RAILWAY.

Lord MON TEAGLE said, that this Company had come
to Parliament for an extension of powers. He said, it had
been represented to him that this Company had far exceeded
its powers, and expen.Ted much more than the capital allowed
by law ; that this additional capital had been raised not
by the issue of bond fide shares, but by an invention of the
directors, which virtually made it a loan. This was a repre-
sentation which, if found true, would make that company by
no means appear worthy of their Lent:lips' sanction. He
moved that an account be ordered showing the state of that
company from year to year.
Lon! PORTMAN said, as Chairman of the Committee be-
fore which this company had been sent, he felt bound to say
that be bad heard nothing of it, although a private letter had
been sent him hinting at something of the same kind with what
their Lordships had heard.
Lord KINN AIRD said, that by the Railway Consolidation
Act the Board of Trade should take care that gates and stations
were provided when lines passed public roads on the level.
CALEDONIAN RAILWAY.
Lord COLCHESTER presented a petition from the Cale-
donian Company, praying that, in consequence of the time
which had been lost in the Commons, the standing order of
the House which fixed the third reading should be set aside,
and that that Bill be permitted to pays.
GAUGE COMMISSION BILL.
The Earl of CLARENDON moved the second reading of
the Gauge Commission Bill, in consonance with the resolutions
to which their Lordships had unanimously come the other

to :

evening.
Lord KINNAIRD had intended to oppose the second read-
ing of this Bill, but as there were to be certain amendments in-
troduced into it in the Committee, which might possibly obviate
his objections, he should refrain from making those observa-
tions which he had intended to offer to their Lordships.
The Earl of SCARBOROUGH begged to apologise to
their Lordships for interfering in this debate, but it appeared
from reports which he had received from engineers, that by
enlarging the sleepers to sixteen inchea, and taking out the
chairs, the carriages on the narrow gauge might be very easily
adapted for the broad gauge, not costing, in all probability,
more than 30/. each. The bridges' and tunnels might be al-
tered with almost proportionately equal facility. After going
through t list of accidents which have occurred respectively
lc on both t e gauges, the Noble Lord said the danger on the
narrow e was evidently greater, for if they put the centre
of gray' ever so little out of its place in turning a corner, the
sway, ot, the unavoidable oseil'ation, would easily throw a car-
riage off its basis. The Noble Lord the Chairman of the Com-
mission had offered no objections to the adoption of the broad
gauge.
Lord BEAUNIONT said that it was evident, from the
evidence submitted to the Commissioners, that so far from the
decision being in favour of the narrow gauge, it was quite the
reverse. The Commissioners had evidently been of opinion
that the broad gauge was the better of the two, bet a better
than either would be one between the two. The Noble Earl
(the Earl of Clarendon) was moving for nothing more nor less
than that the very worst gauge should be adoped for all future
railways, with a very few exceptions. He should not move
any amendment, but if any Noble Lord would bring forward
any motion for postponing this consideration, so that the Noble
Earl's suggestions might be properly taken, he would support
him.
Lord REDESDALE wished to explain what he had
said on the previous occasion, when these resolutions were
adopted. It was hardly the fact that the narrow gauge was
the very worst. On the contrary, he would say that it was
only bad in the view of those who were advocates for very
quick travelling. But there was another class, who looked to
the economical working of railways as well as to the rapidity
of transit. The Commissioners had not said what was the best
gauge, and in the present state of darkness be should be most
unwilling that any definite plan should be adopted. He only
wished that the great engineers should meet together
and give their opinion on what was the best gauge, and he
believed that their decision would be nearly unanimous on that
point. He further wished that the Great Northern Company
would have the courage to come forward and state that they
were ready to alter their gauge to the six-feet gauge, which, as
the medium, appeared to be the best. Having stated his
opinion, he fully trusted that before Parliament met next year
something would be done to settle the question finally. He
would not oppose the present Bill, but he hoped an uniform
gauge would be ultimately adopted.
The Earl of CLARENDON did not see how they could
get rid of their difficulties on this question. There were up •
wards of 2,000 miles constructed on the narrow gauge, and,
with the exception of rapidity of transit, he did not agree with
the Noble Lord that it was the worst gauge. All the eminent
commissioners :abroad who bad come to this country for the
purpose of ascertaining what would be the best gauge for their
respective countries, had adopted the narrow gauge, and there
was a majority of upwards of forty of she most eminent engi-
neers of this country in favour of that principle. The Com-
mission also which had sat upon the question had given it as
their opinion that, in the circumstances of the country, it was
the best gauge that could be adopted.
Lord K I NNAI R D said the Noble Lord asked how were they
to deal with the matter, but they should recollect that the
practicability of altering the gauge had never been inquired
into. He would not detain their Lordships further than by
alluding to what had been said by the Gauge Commissioners,
which was of great importance on the subject. By thie Bill
parties, who were anxious to amalgamate with other companies
would be prevented doing so, when the principle upon which
such amalgamation would be effected would be nullified by this
very Act.
Lord PORTMAN thought that the adoption of the medium
gauge, referred to by the Noble Lord, would necessitate an
alteration in the engines, carriages, and rails of every railroad
in existence in the country. As an inhabitant of the western
portion of England, he was most decidedly in favour of the
broad gauge line.
Lord CAMOYS thought the alteration of the narrow to an
intermediate was the most extensive and the most expensive
alteration that could be made.
Lord GREY considered that the present measure was the
only one practicable at the present time, to prevent the further
spread of the inconvenience of a break of gauge, which every
gentleman deprecated. lie had heard that several companies
in connexion with the narrow gauge had proposed to purchase
the Great Western Extensions, and thus hermetrically seal up
the Great Western Railway. Such a mischief as that would
be remedied by the passing of the present measure, which
would prevent the alteration of the gauge at present laid down
upon the railway. He did not consider the present measure
as at all to be considered as a permanent measure ; for his own
pb(eearfohtreleieerthswuld not be satisfied until the present inconvenience
i Commission
resulting from the break of gauge was entirely removed.—
thought
had that thebee n et yr
ei evidencet
ogivenhoy by 71;1 r
so. Cf
aurb iatst
he was able to torm an opinion, j e thought the proposition of
an intermediate gau.e attended with many advantages. He
tahpopuothatinsgornaecooinm
other mode of settling the business than that of
nto inquire into the subject should bo
adopted; he thought they
had had enough already of Corn-
missions.
Earl
of KINNAIRD said that after the expression
opposesionef
opinions just given by the Noble Earl, he would
the further progress of the Bill.
Earl of SCARBOROUGH made a few remarks which
were inaudible in the gallery.
The Bill was then read a second time.
SMALL DEBTS BILL.
The Lord CHANCELLOR presented several petitions
from Halifax in favour of the Small Debts Bill.
The Lord CHANCELLOR then moved the second reading
of the Small Debts Bill. The proposed Bill was founded on the
report of a Commission consisting of the present Chief Baron,
and Mr. Justice Wightman. In the year 1839 this measure
bad been introduced, but from the pressure of businers it was
not proceeded with. In subsequent years it had been brought
forward, but had not received the sanction of the Legislature.
In the month of June in the present year, the Bill was again
introduced by a member of the late Government. Finding that
the Bill was in accordance with the recommendations of the
Commission, he had brought the measure forward at
the present stage of the session. In the ancient
courts, established many years ago, the expense
of recovering 40s. was six pounds ; it was net
therefore to be wondered at that those courts in the present day
must have fallen into considerable disuse. The present Bill
sought to remove those grievances existing under the former
Acts in-the establishment of local courts, and to remove the
jurisdiction from the courts of conscience or requests. He was
not able at that time to state the numberof those courts now in
existence, or the number of judges or commissioners who
overpre-
ssswiuodeumergesh
ntoot
totally
ebthem.xeeerieen (cal
oidnvelgegt
ruweaat
.es twenty pt
orrohpeleiseeendshdestm.o limit the present Act to
where
scheme
Tp presentrhoespme
sa elid
demandsits t lawe present
courtsw e r
were
able
letdo meet
nbuem necessary.
the
ee
creos w
of
these
atrhyaenstes
courts in irbneo af theseceooundrs
iti sds ter
would
Bill was to divide the country into districts, and to establish
dHistfethe people. There
swisaThaapnpdyatolarsgay
that there would not be so large a large
number of judges as of
courts, because the courts would not require to sit
every day; perhaps not more than once a week
or a fortnight. lie proposed to establish some
judge over each district, who would have the charge of all the
con: ti in that district. Ho did not think they would require
more judges than were now in the halit of presiding over the
existing courts. The judges should be appointed by the Lord
Chancellor or the Secretary of State for the time being. The
mode of proceeding before the court would be the same as that
contained in all local Bills passed since the report of the Com-
mission on the subject. There were a considerable number
of clauses in the Bill, which referred to the snore minute de-
tails and working of the principle of the Bill. He thought the
useasure calculated to do good, and he trusted the measure
would receive the sanction of their Lordships.
The Bill was then read a second time.
I THE BOOK AND ENGRAVINGS BILL, AND THE
[
REDEMPTION OF TITHE BILL
Were read a first tune, and ordered to be read a second time
on Monday next,
Their Lordships then ildtiOlilllCd till IklaildBY•

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 28-
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock.
LORDS' AM ENDM ENTS.
The Lords' amendments to the following Bills were agreed

Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Dudley Railway.
Blackburn, Darwen, and Bolton Railway.
Caledonian Railway (Glasgow Termini and Branches).
Gorbals Gravitation Waterworlo.

Liverpool and Bury Railway Extensions.
London and Birmingham Railway (Coventry to Nuneaton).
London and Birmingham Railway (Weedon to Northampton).
Manchester and Leeds Railway Extensions.
Midland Railway (Leicester and Swennington Alterations and

Branches). -
North Wales Railway.
Shrewsbury and Birmingham Railway.
Shrewsbury, Wolverhampton, and South Staffordshire June-

tion Rail -way (No. 1).
Strathtay and Breadalbane Railway.
Trent Valley, Midland?. and Grand Junction Railway.
Wilts, Somerset, and Wel mouth Railway.
BATHS AND WASEIHOUSES.
Mr. M'CARTHY presented a petition from Cork, praying
that the provisions of the Baths and Washhouses Bill might be
extended to Ireland.
JURORS— (IRELAND.)
Lord CLEMENTS presented a petition from the jurors of
the county of Leitrim, complaining of being so repeatedly
called upon to perform the duty of jurors in consequence of the
absentees, and praying for an amendment of the law with
respect to jurors.

THIRD READINGS. •
The Cambeltown Harbour, Waterworks, Paving, Lighting,
and Watching Bill, and the Tramore Embankment Bill, were
read a third time and passed.
Colonel FOX presented a petition from Southwark, praying
for the opening, free of tull, of Waterloo, Southwark, and
Vauxhall Bridger.
The report on the Sligo and Shannon Railway was
agreed to

lay before the House some particulars with respect to some
es atcs in Jamaica. The amount of sugar produced in the
estates on that island had'greatly decreased during the last few
years in consequence of the extreme drought, and the want of
protection which had been denied to them by the Government.
The estimate for the present year was not less than 800 tons of
sugar. Let them take another case, in which an estate, that
before the emancipation of the negroes did not produce
100 hogsheads of sugar, now from the number of
estates which that measure had thrown out of

cultivation, and the consequent great supply of labour
notwithstanding the abolition of slavery, produced 150 hogs-
heads per annum. Though the soil was of an inferior
character, if they had an ample supply of labour it
would be made three times as valuable as it was

before the passing of the Act of Emancipation. Again,
if they took the island of Barbados s. According
to returns which had been placed before the House, it
was stated that it had increased its crops since the abolition of
slavery, and that wales had risen. The wages were the same
as in Jamaica, with this difference—that instead- of "paying
a fair day!s wages for a fair day's work," the la-
bourers received for four hours' labour daily the

same as was paid in Jamaica for seven or eight. There
were ample reasons to show that if an adequate supply of
labour was given, these estates would do sufficiently well.
He thought that this would justify him in stat►ng
that which had been said by a gentleman well ac-
quainted with the West Indian colonies, and had
been quoted by the Noble Lord the Member for the
city of London—that the West India planters were in the
hands of the negroes, instead of the negroes being in the
hands of the planters.— (Hear, hear.) Such was the opinion
of a disinterested man, and one who had the most extensive
experience of the colonies; and that opinion was corroborated
by the governors of the different ►slands. He thought he
did not say too much, in affirming that the fault of the
colonies not being in so prosperous a condition as they
might have been lay not w►th the planters but with the
Government. Give them a supply of labour, and there
would be no danger of their estates being uncultivated. He was
sorry to hear the Noble Lord say that he would not allow any
importation of labourers from Africa, unless they came from
places at which the British flag was flying. He thought there
ought to be full liberty for labourers to come from

any part, under such guarantee as to personal liberty which
the Government should think necessary. In Jamaica there
was an estate on which there were thirty-two. negroes,

who filed the most important situations, and had risen to
their pre3ent position by their energy and industry. They
were declared to be an intelligent and active body of men, and

they filled the most important situations for carrying
on the various processes on the estate. It was only
recently that they had obtained any labour, and
what they desired was time to allow it to come into ope-
ration. Had not the West Indies suffered from a

very severe drought, the crop would have increased
in a greater proportion than in any former year,
by reason of that labour. It was really a very bard case, be-
cause they had been unfortunate this year,. slave labour should
be allowed to come into competition with them. But
the benefits which the Iskble Lord promised to them
did not come up to their expectation. Ho has
told us that molasses and sugar cannot be used in breweries,
because the excise have an objection to it. If reforms are to

be carried out on the pr'inciple of free trade, they
ought to adapt the reforms to that principle, and
not their reforms to the excise. He could see no

reason why they should impose this tax upon the colonies—
it was not consistent with a spirit of justice or equity.
He thought that he could apply to the present state of the
country the opinion of Lord Metcalfe, who said that the Go-
vernment were in the hands of the Excise, and not the Ex-
cise in the hands of the Government. He did not think
that the Excise duties should be suffered to remain
in their present condition. He thought the duties
should be equalised and levied after the spirits
were made, the distillers would then have a protection of Bd.
per gallon. He hoped that at a future time the Noble Lord
at the bead of the Government would turn his attention to

the subject and place the duties upon an equality. It was his
opinion that emancipation had fully borne out the expectations
of the parties. He had visited Louisana and Cuba, and it
was his deliberate opinion that free-labour could compete with
slave.labnur. His firm belief was that the present measure
if passed, would have the effect of throwing estates out of cul-
tivation, and that it would also give a stimulus to the slave
trade; and if this country encouraged the growth of slave-
grown sugar, with what face could they request foreign nations
to join with them in putting a stop to the odious traffic in slaves ?
If the cultivation of sugar were to be increased by 50,000 tons,
according to the estimate of the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government, there must, of necessity, be an absolute
increase in the amount of slavery, He remembered having
heard, some short time ago, the Right Hon. Gentleman, the
Member for Edinburgh, describing the misery which resulted
from the existence of slavery in America, but he could assure
the Right Hon. Gentleman that the horrors he had de-

picted fell far short of the misery attendant upon the
African slave trade. He had once seen a cargo of slaves the day
after they were landed, and certainly no considerations of policy
should ever induce him to encourage such an abominable system.
They were told that the people of this country required cheap
sugar, and he considered that their desire would be supplied if
there was a considerable reduction this year in the price of free-
labour sugar—such a reduction he was ready to agree to by
supporting a reduction of the existing duties, and
although he did not speak for the whole West Indian
interest, he was sure they would also consent to a re-
duction ; and he believed the plantations of West India
and of the colonies would yield this country an ample supply
of free-labour sugar. The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer said, in his speech last night, that the Government
wished to let in a quantity of sugar, and to derive a large re-
venue irom the increased supply. Now, he was surprised
to hear the minister of a ree country like
this, boast of the revenue which would be derived
' by encouraging the slave trade, for if the measure propounded
by the Government was passed, slavery would be increased
two-fold; but of this he was certain, that if they
wished to put a stop to the slay,' trade—if they
wished to obtain a character for honour and humanity, they
must show the world that free was cheaper than slave labour.
If they did not do this they would belie the free trade prin-
ciples which they bad ennciated, and show that whilst they
boasted of free trade with all the world, they were propagat-

ing the slave trade.
Upwards of 20 Members rose when the Hon. Gentleman re-
sumed his seat, but they gave way to
Mr. P. BORTHWICK, who spoke from the opposition
benches, and close to Sir James Graham, said he now had to
say one word with respect to the speech of the Bright Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth, addressed to the House

last night. In the course of this session he had felt it his duty
to oppose that Right Hon. Baronet, and he rejoiced at teat
moment that that opposition had been successful ; but he did
not think that any one in or out of that House considered that
he could speak of that Right Hon. Baronet in any other terms
than those of respect, and he trusted he should not, that night,
use any language with reference to him which was inconsistent
with the high position which he held in that House, and in the
councils of her Majesty ; but he trusted, notwithstanding his
absence from his place at that moment, it might not be held
irrelevent to the question before the Meuse. He never in his
life listened to a speech—(Here Sir Robert Peel entered the
House.) He was glad the Right Hon. Baronet had come
into the House—( Roars of laughter)—as he was sure he
would admit, although he hadsaceused him of speaking harshly
of him in his absence, that he had said sweet things of him in
his presence. He never, in the course of his life, did hear a
speech which, if adoi.ted in that House, and acted on by its
individual Members, was so directly calculated to lower the
House in the estimation of the ccuntry. The question before
the House was not one of finance, although it involved finance
in its operations. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth, looking at the question as one in no small degree
involving their rights, s,et cleclared his intention to vote
(however reluctantly) for the measure introduced by the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government—and why? Be-
cause, six weeks had not yet elapsed since the formation of the
Government.—( Hear, hear.) He should like to know what
period must expire before an Hon. Member could dare to re-
cord his honest convictions, or to vote against the Governs
ment, in accordance with the dictates of his conscience?
The Right Hon. Baronet asked, who were to f arm the next
Government? Was that a fit matter for the House to ques-
tion ? They were nt.t sent up to that House to resolve ques-
tions of expediency, but to represent those who returned
them, in right and Justice, on such questions as might be sub.
mitted by the Government. He was sure that if that House
were—in weighing matters so important as that which then
occupied their consideration—to take into account what
Ministry would follow the present, or whether the present
Minister was to be confirmed in his power—if that House
took such a course of conduct on any question, it would adopt
a mode most fatal to the interests of the country. The purpose
of the Right Hon. Baronet's speech was transparent ; it was
as clear as the noon-day. It was to throw difficulties in the
way of the formation of any new Government ; to throw diffi-
culties in the way of any man, who might encounter the slavery
cry of this country ; and to which cry the Right Hon. Baronet
had attempted to lend his name—a name than which none was
higher in opposition to the principle some ten or fifteen years ago.
He should have gone with him, and felt it his duty as an hum-
ble follower of his, whatever scruples he might have about
the amount of protection which he asked, whatever difference
of opinion in detail he might feel, he should have at once
candidly given his vote in favour of the Noble Lord, because
he held it to le his duty to his party leader to sacrifice all
questions of detail on which his party might agree. But this
was no qi,estion of detail or finance. The Noble Lord's reso-
lution, which he had moved as an amendment to the motion
of the Noble Lard at the head of the Government, involved
two things. First, and of least importance, the commercial
question; and secondly, and most important, the question of
slavery. The House would admit that in the course taken
by the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck)
the mast earnest and by far the most successful was that part
part of his speech in which he represented to the House the
horrors of the slave.trade, in which he asserted that, as a
British legislator, he could never consent to weigh gold
lamb.tHwi
oholiuiesoh House whilst
iwttlithsdeitslosot(dhel re.
He thought the House
said would
that agreee
against the blood of his fellow creature ; anti that the argument
of the Noble Lord at the head of the Government was no
better than that of the sheep-stealer who argued that, as he was
to be hanged, he might as well be hanged for a sheep as a
fellow eSteorretdhwfeireke)feaswkinedemtehnetaiinedtiellgibeneceeenosifdetrhae.
question, and an examination of the grounds on
cinrgeattou rbee.
hanged looked so very like a sheep that it would require all
wcoiuthldhnimot
the ingenuity of the most consummate debater debater to distinguish
that the lamb for which the NoblelaadLoradi
asvafes
betweenTh Lttoerd
blood
wag at 21s. or 235. per cent.
opular statement, and it was not more popular
He
than it was just.—(Hear, hear.) would not consent,
therefore, with the Noble Lord.to do precisely what he did
with regard to measuring the value of the negroes' blood with
atwastthheem,p.
bear to weigh gold The aNgaoibnlset
a standard of gold. The Noble. Lord had said, that'
on free grown sugar, he was willing to barter
the blood of a negro for the price of forty shillings.
The Nokle Lord had stated that his ground of opposition to
as long as the duty
the measure was that it proposed to remove the differential
duties, and as long as they were preserved he had no objection
to the continuance of slavery. The Noble Lord was distinctly
and clearly bound, at all hazards, and against all odds to for-
bid, upon any terms whatsoever, the Introduction into this
country of any production of slave labour. He (Mr.
Borthwick) contended that it was impossible to conceive a po-
sition for a great country more wretchedly humiliating than
this—that it should assert that some particular practice, which
was contrary to justice and the rights of humanity, should not
be put down ; and they would make no sacra6ce for the pur-
pnve of removing it ; and its abhorrence of slavery
should consist in countenancing a duty of 40s. per
cwt. on the sugar introduced into their markets.—( Hear.)
It appeared from the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for
Lynn, that what was a deadly sin at 265. per cwt. was a cardinal
virtue at 635. It reminded him of a lady who went to her
confessor for absolution. She confessed to having erred three
times, but her ghostly adviser said he had no absolution for that
number of offences, but that if she would commit the offence
three times more, so as to make six times, he could grant her
absolution. On that principle were they considering the pre-
sent question. A great deal had been said about raising sugar
by the blood of the negro in Brazil and Cuba' but the Noble
Lord the Member for Lynn stated they would be able to get a
supply of 100,000 tons from the banks of the Ganges. But he
wished to know whether there was one element in slavery in
the Brazils that did no: exist in the East Indies? One great
element of slavery was, a man having property in his fellow
man, and this he affirmed existed to as great an extent on the
bats of the Gyro M is either tk9 Brasil' o; Cubt,

Would they use sugar which bad been cultivated with the blood
of men who had been bought?—(A laugh from Sir James
Graham.) He began to think he was a little dull of apprehen-
sion in this matter, and that he was not acquainted with all the
means of buying and selling. If the lion. Gentleman means
that all the men on the banks of the Ganges are not bought and
soli, he would at once assert that all the men in Java and
Cuba were not bought and sold; so the argument was not
worth a laugh, and if it was a joke, it was so bad, that he could
not laugh at it. But if he had any other meaning, he did not
wish to revert to it, for they could not say who was bought or
sold. He himself was not to be led by any party, nor would he
withold his support from the Noble Lord. And he considered
that the Right. Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), when he pur-
ported to support the Government, had made a speech more
calculated to injure them than anything else.—(Hear, hear.)
India is steeped to the very lips in slavery, and Mr. Wilber-
force had said that the dwelling-place and the home of slavery
was in India, and that for centuries before the West Indies
were discovered slavery had been cradled and nurtured there.
Slavery formed part of the religion of India. He would ask the
Noble Lord the member for Lynn whether he believed that
those harrowing reports which he had read to the House were
not considerably exaggerated by the writer of those horrid and
revolting narratives? He did not vindicate the slave trade,
God forbid that he should. He should deserve to be
struck to death on the floor on which he stood if he did;
but let them look to the southern states of North America,
and they would find slavery equally as horrid and de-
testable as that denounced by the Noble Lord opposite.
( He then read from a book published on the subject an account
of the cruelty to which not only male but female slaves were
subjected, and that the grossest immorality was encouraged
amongst them in order to propagate their rare.) The volume
also contained an anecdote which he would relate to the House.
A gentleman at one of the watering-places became enamoured
of a young female slave, whom he married, and carried with
him to the free states, where he educated her after the fashion
of an English gentlewoman. One morning an elderly man
waited upon him, and demanded the woman on the ground of
her being his slave. He said she was worth a 1,000 dollars, but
that he should have her for 900 dollars, which the husband paid.
He mentioned the circumstance to his wife, who said—" He is
not only my master, but my father." This was the state of sla-
very which they were going to encourage by a criminating
duty. He then referred to other passages of the book, which
stated that the slaves were punisbi d by being fastened tightly
to a stake, so that they could not move, and flogged with a
spiked instrument, which penetrated into the flesh, and that
they in this position received hundreds of lashes on their
naked backs. Now he (Mr. Borthwick) believed that many
of these statements were exaggerated, but he believed also
that equal cruelty was inflicted in Cuba and Brazil as in Mis-
sissippi at d Alabama. It was always, however, in the power of
the slave to purchase his freedom as soon as he could raise
sufficient money to effect the purchase. The slave could also
change his master, and be removed, provided he were not well
fed, or prevented from going to church. That state of things
existed in Cuba and Brazils, where there were from 2,000 to
3,000 free negroes. In Brazils no distinction was made be-
tween the men of colour, but in South America they were
riot allowed to be near the whites, nor even to worship
God in the same pew as the white man. On
the grounds he had stated he must oppose the minion of
the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. Unless he could show
the House that the statements he had made about Java and
Manilla, and the southern states of North America,
were false, he had no right whatever to ask him
(Mr. Borthwick) to vote for the distinction between
slave-grown and free-grown sugar. The people of this
country were not permitted to grow tobacco, but they were
forced, for financial purposes, to pay a duty of 1,200
per cent. on tobacco that was slave-grown.—(Hearr,
hear.) Their was scarcely a tropical product but what
was produced by slaves driven by the whip and sup-
plied by the slave trade. He was sorry the Noble Lord the
Member for Lynn should have lent himself to such a cry as
that now raised, which he believed was only .got up for
hustings' purposes against the ensuing general election.
If they gave themselves the patience to examine they would
find that their arguments and their position were as false as their
humanity was genuine and real. But it was painful to see
those practices played off upon the people of England, for the
mere purpose of getting up a party cry. If they felt the im-
portance of setting the slave free, they were bound to carry
out that principle to the fullest extent. They must no longer
use slave grown tobacco, nor use any of the luxuries, in the
procuring or manufacturing of which slave-labour was used ;
they must forego the use of slave-produced luxuries whether
they were mineral, vegetable, or animal. So much for the
question of slavery, on viLich the Noble Lord seemed to rest
his opposition. He (Mr. Borthwick) begged to tell him that
while he trusted to the excitement of popular sympathy with
respect to the slavery in sugar—a most honourable course no
doubt on the part of the Noble Lord—he was also bound to call
on the people of this country to mike use no longer of the other
articles of slave manufacture. Henceforth, on the principle
laid down by the Noble Lord, we must not use slave-grown
cotton, tobacco, &c. We must no longer make use of the gold,
the diamonds, the rubies, or the other articles in the procuring
of which slave.s were employed. He would no longer detain
the House on the question of slavery. While he differed in tote
with the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn upon the question
of slavery, he agreed with him most cordially upon the question
of protection. He, in conjunction with the Noble Lord, was
of opinion that the East and West Indian colonies were fairly
entitled to much more protection than they now en-
j )yed. He was of opinion that it was for the
benefit of the producer and consumer of sugar in
all parts that further protection should be extended
to our colonists.—(Hear, hear.) Whoever was responsible for
the evils of slavery, he believed that the Indian planters were
free from blame. When the local legislatures of their colo-
nies attempted to obtain Acts of Parliament for the discoun-
tenance and abolition of the slave trade, they were told by the
Legislature of this country, that the slave-trade was profitable
to the exchequer of this country, and that the question of
humanity should be put back, and that the question of the
abolition of the slave trade should be deferred. But, notwith-
standing all that, the planters of Jamaica had subscribed
60,0001. in the course of twelve years for the emancipation of
17,000 negroes. Notwithstanding their efforts to ameliorate
the condition of the slaves, in consequence of the conduct of
the British Legislature their wishes had not been carried out.
He felt sure that the Noble Lord would be doing a great service
to the moral and physical condition of the people by encouraging
an importation of free labour—( Hear, hear )—and he trusted
that when he went into Committee on the resolutions which he
had proposed, he would not abide by the figures mentioned in
them.—( Hear, hear.) He trusted that a differential duty
of 9s. 3d. would be continued in favour of our West Indian
colonists. He trusted that the Noble Lord would consider
well before he consentel to remove all protection from the pro-
ducers of sugar. He was sure that free labour was in itself a
much cheaper commodity than slave labour, and by encou-
raging free labour they would undoubtedly lessen, in a great
degree, the present extent of slavery, and teach a great lesson
of humanity to the world, and free themselves from the ridi-
cule which would otherwise attach to them.
The Marquis of GRANBY said he was anxious to state to '
the House the ground on which he should give his vote on the
present occasion, and be would do so very shortly, because he
believed that the House was prepared to go to a division on the
question that night.—(Hear, ) At the same time, he
could not but regret the late period of the session at which this
great question had been brought forward for discussion—( Hear,
hear )—and he regretted that fact in a particular manner after
hearing the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth on the previous evening—( Hear, hear)—because he
thought it was a speech that certainly was in favour of the
amendment which his (the Marquis of Granby's) Noble
Friend had moved. It was a speech against any opposition to
the present Government ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman
stated, that in consequence of the present state of parties, be
was enabled to give effect to that speech, and vote in accord-
ance with it. At the same time, he wished to say that the
vote which he (the Marquis of Granby) was about to give
was not in consequence of any hostile feeling which he enter-
tained towards the present Government, but rather in conse-
quence of the dislike which he had to the present measure.—
( Hear, hear.) He was obliged to vote against this measure
upon two grounds— upon the ground of protection to our
colonists, and also upon the ground that he believed
this measure would increase the slave trade.—( Cries of
" Hear, bear.") He would consider those two grounds
together, because by so doing he thought he should occupy less
of the time of the House—he should consider them togethee,be-
cause he thought that they were intimately -connected, and
could not be well separated. Protection was necessary for our
colonists in consequence of the legislation of that flouse—a le-
gislation which was directed against the continuance of the
slave trade—( Hear, hear.) He should like to know what the
constituents of this country—what the nations of the world
would think of their conduct, if they, who at the time when
the interests of humanity and the interests of our colonists ap-
peared to be in opposition—they who said that in their opinion
the interests of humanity must be considered before all others
—(Hear, hear)—and that the interests of the con-
sumers of this country were against that interest,
and that they must pay a tax of 20,000,0001.
to maintain the interests of humanity—(Hear, hear)
—that the same parties should now coma forward
and propose that that very slavery, for the suppression of which
so much had been done, should now be encouraged as much as
possible; for that would, in tact, be the result of the proposition
of the Noble Lord at the head of her Majesty's Government.—
( Hear, hear.) He would ask them whether the constituents
of this country and the nations of the world would not consider
their conduct to be not merely inconsistent, but most unjust ?
( Hear, hear.) For, the purpose of making sugar about a half-
penny a pound cheaper, they proposed that all the labour which
had been consumed for the extinction of slavery, as well as the
20,000,0001. tax, should be set at nought. The only argument
which he had heard, and which he thought worthy
of the name, was that because we admitted slave-grown
coffee, slave-grown copper, and other articles, we were there-
fore bound in consistency to admit slave-grown sugar. Now,
ho did think that there was a vast difference between the
production of those articles and the production of slave-grown
sugar. But that he thought was well
tweniettki
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dwellingwn t o the
o th athat House,
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Tamworth,eest
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thn
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referringhoef
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aievme
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tf
hotore
manufacture of sugar.—(Hear.) Supposing it were true that the
slavery employed in the manufacture of cotton, &c., was equal
in extent to that employed in the manufacture of sugar. He
contended still that the argument, that because we had done
wrong in one instance we were to do wrong in another, was
the most extraordinary argument that was ever made in that
House.—( Hear. ) They had often heard that the first step in a
wrong direction was very bad, but he had never, until now,
heard that because we had taken that step we should descend
the whole flight.—( Hear, hear.) Surely the Noble Lord was
not prepared to maintain such an argument as that. The
people of this country would, however, mast certainly reject it.
The argument of the Noble Lord as to a man and his dis-
honest neighbour he also held to be equally wrong; in fact it
was the strangest argument which he (the Marquis of Granby)
had-ever heard. Was that the conduct which the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government was prepared to advise "
the
most moral and philanthropic country on the earth" to pursue?
He considered that the Noble Lord had failed to convince the
House that they would not facilitate the slave-trade by admit-
ting slave-grown sugar.—(Hear, hear.) It had been urged
that all their endeavours to repress the slave-trade had failed,
and that they therefore ought to give up further exertion,
-but such an argument he was convinced had no weight with
Theliear,
Noble
h hear.)
ro; the Hemceomnsbeidr forered
Lynn, which set forth the increased supply which they could
obtain from the East and West Indies, by proper management,
statementthat House.—(Hear, e .
it became their duty to give a further trial trotection. The
Hon. Member for Evesham had insinuate that they were
tahnayt Member
rbLin
H u s
of
actuated by a desire to get up a cry against slavery in the
country ; he was of opinion that a feeling did exist already in
the country against slavery, but he begged to repudiate such
an intention which was most incorrectly attributed to them.
Mr. OSWALD considered that some settlement of the
question was most earnestly desired, and, remembering that
protection had been withdrawn from agriculture, he wao of
opinion that they should be prepared to do away with pro:
tection of every kind ; and, therefore, he could not support the
amendment of the Noble Lord.'—(Hear, hear.) He was not
prepared, after the country had given twenty millions to ex-
tinguish slavery, that they should further tax themselves at the
rate of two millions sterling annually in a useless endeavour.
And it was quite a mistake to imagine that they would be able
to affect the fiscal arrangement of other countries by legis-
lation of their own.—( Hear, hear.) They had the statement
of a most distinguished advocate of the slave, that what they
had done had not mitigated the evils of the system of slavery,
and he was therefore of opinion that they must look to some
other way to banish slarery thee thew of the Custom-bouse.

Mr. HUME wished to correct a mistake which the Hon.
Member (Mr. Borthwick ) had fallen into with regard to the
sugar which came from Bengal. There was not one slave in
the whole of Bengal who had a complaint to make; the courts
were open to him, where he would be readily received; and
he wished to state that the admission of slave-grown sugar into
this country would not have the smallest effect in giving an
impetus to slavery in the colonies. He was sorry that the
Noble Lord was not in his place to heir his opinion upon that
subject, as he felt sure that the Noble Lord spoke from a sincere
conviction that the proposed policy would have the effect of in-
creasing the slave trade. Sir F. Buxton said, all the exertions they
had made to put down the slave-trade, on the coast of Africa,
by coercion had failed, and had only aggravated the evils which
existed. It was on that account, therefore, he (Mr. Hume)
wished for the removal of the squadron of twenty-eight ships
from that quarter, believing, as he did, that that was an use-
less and wasteful expenditure. The question was asked by
the Noble Lord, did they despair, then, of putting an end to
s'avery ? He (Mr. Hume) replied that they did not, provided
only that the necessary steps were taken for that purpose.
What he said was, let Cuba and Brazil continue to bring their
slaves from Africa, for it was shown that that could not be pre-
vented ; but let the West India planters be permitted to do so
also, and as soon as the slaves landed upon the British colonies
let them be declared freemen.—(Laughter.) In the early part
of the present session he moved for a number of orders of
Council rela ive to the admission of free labour to the colonies,
and these orders had actually prevented the admission of
labour. The effect of these orders was just the same as if an
express prohibition had been made for the exclusion of labour.
It was only within the last eighteen months that any relaxa-
tion had taken place in these orders; and if they had occurred
long ago, they would not now have to regret the consequences
which resulted from the want of sufficient labour. There was
ne man, who read the evidence of Mr. Deacon Hume care-
fully, who could fail to see that the colonies were not in a
natural condition, and that if the colonies had free trade them.
selves, they had nothing to fear from the withdrawal of pro-
tection ; as they would in that case be able to compete with
the world. Mr. Hume, in stating those opinions, de-
tested slavery as much as any man, and yet he
told the British people and the British Legislature
that it would be prejudicial to the interests of the colonies if
they removed all protection at once, without enabling the
colonies to procure an adequate supply of customers. A Noble
Lord had said that the slave-trade had been suppressed by the
squadron they had coasting off Africa. He (Mr. Hume)
thought that that assertion was not correct, for if they sent
every ship there which France and England could spare, they
could not put down the slave-trade. The remedy he sug-
gested for this state of things was to allow the West India
planter to meet the Cuba and Brazil slave-master in Africa,
and while the latter purchased the negroes as slaves, let the
former buy them as freemen. As long as there was the im-
mense prof t connected with the trade, which it was well
known attended it, all their efforts for its suppression
would be unavailing. He thought they should act
on principle in this as well as in everything
else, and carry out in practice the remedy he suggested.
If the Right Hon. Baronet was of opinion that nothing would
put down slavery but free labour, why did they not get free
labohr and put slavery down? Let them withdraw their fleets
nhiet were used to put down the practice. Their fleets cast
500,0001. per annum, let them expend one-half of that sum,
and they would succeed in destroying slavery altogether. He
was anxious to see the question settled once for all—he was
anxious to see the people relieved from the annual annoyance
of the debate, and on that ground he would give his support to
the Noble Lord on the question before the House. Many peo-
ple might suppose that he was not willing to relieve the con-
sumer from the tax on sugar ; on the contrary, he hoped to see
the time when they would have a duty of 10s. per cent., which
tax, with the quantities that would be consumed under the re-
duction, would amply repay the sacrifice which had been made
of the higher rate of duty.
Sir J. R. REID said, that the circumstances in which
the colonies were placed and the state of affairs at home
would render this measure, if it were carried, one of complete
ruin. That very day he knew that the first effects of the pro-
posed measures were felt, for in consequence of the turn which
the debate took the last evening, at the meeting of some of the
most respectable traders connected with the colonies, the Sat
had gone forth to stop the cultivation of some of the estates.
All that was required by those connected with the trade was
fair play, and unless that were granted to them it would be
useless for them to attempt to cultivate their estates in com-
petition with those on which sugar could be grown, and ad-
mitted into this country at a cheaper rate.
Mr. BERNAL wished that the question could be de-
finitively settled. He did not care for the period which was
taken, for an assurance that the question was to be finally put
at rest was all that was required, and he thought that every
West Indian could accommodate himself to the circum-
stances which must ensue under the new revolutions.

While Ilarbadoes had a large population with labour cona•
paratively plentiful, Jamaica possessed an immense tract o
country and a very limited population in proportion to its ex•
tent of soil. The circumstances of the West Indian Islands
were therefore d:ffer,.nt, and different measures of relief should
be applied to them. This must be done in whatever was pro-
posed, to make those islands meet the altered circumstances
in which they would now be placed. With regard to the
Coolies, it had been found that they were not so good labourers
as the Africans. The former had certain religious notions
which prevented them from taking such food as was necessary
for great physical exertions • while the Africans had no such
prejudices as these. Looking at all the circumstances,
of the case, they msut look to the coast of Africa
for the supply of labour ; and while they sought for
the supply from that quarter, he quite agreed that.
British agents should be placed at various points on the
coast of Africa to see that nothing but fair measures
were taken to induce labourers to go to the West India
Islands. But, in carrying out this arrangement of free
labour, he submitted that twelve, months' engagements were
too short. He thought the time ought to be extended, and
trusted the Noble Lord at the head of the Government would
take this point into his most serious consideration. But in
carrying out the doctrine of free trade in relation to the West
Indies, he trusted it would not be done in a one-sided manner,
but that it would be carried out to the fullest extent. While
colonial sugar was to enter into competition with the produce
of foreign countries, he hoped that other produce of the West
India Islands would be admitted into the markets of this coun-
try on the same terms as the produce of the British Islands.
He considered the full application of free trade would lead
them to place West India spirits on the same
footing as the spirits of the distillers of this
country. It was a hard case that a duty of 93. 4d. a gallon
should be placed on West India rum, while the duty on Scotch
spirits was 3s. 4d., and that 'on Irish whiskey but 2s. Bd.
Good God ! was such a system to be defended. The colonies
were part and parcel of the British empire, and if this measure
was passed, he defied any one who advocated free trade doc-
trines to maintain intact such a difference in duty as that which
he had just stated. They must be prepared to meet all those
difficulties, and to carry out the principles of free trade to the
fullest possible extent. He called on those who possessed West
India property to prepare for the change. They must meet it
by increased energy and activity, and by a reduction of price
in their commodities endeavour to extend their markets.
They could not avert the change. The tide of feeling was
too str mgly set in in favour of free trade for them to
hope by any opposition they could offer to arrest its progress.
He had thus stated his own views on the subject, to which he
respectfully called the attention of those who represented the
West Indian interest, and he would sit down by thanking the
House for the patience with which it had listened to his
observations.
Mr. E. DENISON said, if any Member entertained a feel-
ing of hostility to the West Indian interests, the Hon. Gentle-
man who had just sat down had done much to disarm him of
that hostility ; and he hoped, for his own part, to avoid say-
ing anything offensive. He would have been satisfied to have
rested the vote that he was to give in support of the Govern-
ment measure on the speech made by his Noble Friend who
had introduced it, and the speech delivered-by his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but many points had
been stirred in the course of the debate, on which he wished to
make some observations. He assured the Hon. Member that
he could never forget that he had been one who gave his vote
for the emancipation of the slave ; an event which was the
source of great changes in this country.—( Hear,
hear.) But, there was one thing which he
wished never to forget, and which he wished to press on the
attention of the House ; and it was this—to take care that this
experiment in the West Indies should not prove a failure.—
( Hear, hear.) A feeling which was excited in him by a con-
sideration of the interests of humanity. of the negro race, and
of this country. As had been the case with free-trade, year
by year they had tried treaties and tariffs, yet, after all, they
had Ministers rising up and saying, that these treaties and
tariffs were vain and inefficient, and that the country must, by
leading the way, show through her example what the rest of
the nations ought to do. He said, then, what was true as to
free-trade, was true in free .labour. There were two points
to which he should address his observations—first, to the
course of conduct pursued by this country on the eoast of
Africa ; and second, to the course of conduct pursued towards
the West India colonies of this country. Much had been sail
on the first of these during the present debate. The Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) said last night, that he had
arrived at this conclusion—that the best armour against
slavery was the promotion of free-labour. That opinion was
not a new one ; it had appeared in the book published by the
late Sir Powell Buxton, and it had been advocated in a letter
the . Noble Lord at the head of the Government to the
Teasury in 1839, In 1841, the Chancellor of the Exchequer
said the present means used to put down slavery rather
aggravated it. The commissioners, in their report from Sierra
Leone, aaid.that the,capture of vessels might have an effect on
the number of captives, but still the slave trade was on the
bierease. A return moved for by the Bon. Member for
Montrose. showed the expenses of the expedition in 1843,
giving ships of all classes, 58;. 01945 tons ; 8,454 men, at a
cost of 575,46(51.; and this sum would be increased by the
salaries of extra officers engaged in the same object to about
600,0001. But all the expenses of the expedition would far
exceed this amount. Yet their efforts it was acknowledged
on all hands were ineffectual, notwithstanding that they were
made at a great expenditure of money and health. In reference
to the course pursued towards the possessions of this country
in the West Indies, he would just recall the attention of the
House to the considerations taken up in a Committee which
sat on the West India Colonies. That Committee was of opinion
that the materials for immigration from Africa into the West
Indies were considerable; that immigration would be of great
advantage to the negroes ; and, that under proper regulations,
there would be no' danger of a revival of the slavery trade.
He thought the West India interest had a right to come to that
House to demand every possible assistance for the supply of
free labour. Believing, as he did, that the efforts on the
African coast had been unsuccessful, he was not disposed this
year to support a vote of a certain amount, say 50,0001., fur the
purpose of preventing imsnigration to the West Indies, but next
year he, might be disposed to sanction such a course.
He did: not know whether the opinion of the House
went with him in • what: he . bad said, but he
coulanot have any.hesitationin asking his Right Hon. Friend
the Noble Lord at the heed of the Government to give his
'most favourable consideration to the question of supplying the
colonies with a sufficiency of free labourers.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr.. JAMES said he had not the good fortune to be in the
House when the Prime Minister made the speech developing his
plan upon sloe important question then before the House, in
consequence of having been detained upon urgent business in
another place, but he had read the speech with great interest,
and he had come to the conclusion that the public generally, but
more especially those who were interested or more immediately
affectee by this subject, were much indebted to the Noble Lord,
and untler great obligation to the Noble Lord, for the attempt
lie was ,making to place the sugar duties upon a permanent
footing, in place of having those annual discussions which lead
to so much uncertainty, and so seriously injured the West
India interest.—( Hear, hear.) But he did not think the plan
propounied by the Noble Lord was the best that could be
devised for carrying eut their free-trade principles.—( Hear,
hear.) It seemed to him to be monstrous to continue a tax of
14s. per cwt., which was equal to lid. per lb., upon colonial
sugar. and Llls. per cwt. upon foreign sugar, which was equal to
2ir. per lb., and at the same time, and in the same breath.
talk about cheap sugar for the million.—( Cries of " hear,
hoar.") He thought it was highly desirable that they should
find rr.eans for affording constant and increasing supplies of
labmsrers for the colonies, as well as a constant and inereasine
-of sugar for the population of this count, y. That, he
though,', was a subject well worthy the attention of Govern •
ment, be 't it could not be attained so long as these high duties
were countenanced. If the colonies ought to be treated as in-
tegral parts' of the mother country, he wished to know with
what justice ~they could tax sugar, coming at a largo expense
from the West Indies, while they did not tax his corn, which
only Guile from Palherliad ? The produce of the colonic: he

contended ought to be admitted free of duty, but it was said
they wanted revenue. Well, they could get it from
the duty which they imposed on slave-grown sugar.
—(Hear, hear.) But if the Government would not
abolish the duty on colonial sugar, let them at all events
considerably reduce it. He would reduce colonial sugar to
10s. per cwt. and foreign sugar to 14s. ; but the Chancellor of
the Exchequer said, considerations of revenue would not let
him do it, although he admitted it to be just; while the Right
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, said the state of
parties prevented his doing justice.—( Hear, and.. laughter.
What nonsense this was. 'why could they not increase the
income tax, and throw the burden upon those who were able
to bear it, and not upon the hard-working and industrious
classes of the country ?—(Cheers.) He would not say anything
about the wickedness and immorality of encouraging the
slave trade, but Illere could be no doubt that the Emanek
pation Act had proved a complete failure.—(Hear, hear.)
The effect of it had been to ruin the colonies and to increase
the price of sugar in this country; to convert our formerly
active and industrious population into an extremely indolent
and lazy one, and to transfer a considerable portion of their
labour to the slave labourers of other countries. Before the
Einancipation Act was passed he took the liberty of saying
that would be its result, but the House at the time, beirg

under the dominion of the philanthropy of the country,
would not listen to his warning —(Hear, hear.) And no
wonder that the Emancipation Act had failed, considering
that since it had passed the Government of this country had
made no exertions to carry out the principle of the measure,
but on the contrary had rather thrown impediments in the
way of establishing a population of free labour in the colonies.
—( Hear, hear.) The consequence was, there had never been
a proper supply of labour for keeping the land in a sate of
cultivation; but still, if Government was determined
to admit foreign suffer into competition with colonial produce,
the least they could do was to reduce the duty, and, therefore,
he begged to give notice that he should propose in Committee
that colonial sugar should be admitted at 10s. per cwt. and
foreign sugar at 21s. —( Hear, hear. )
Mr. BARCL AY was for free trade in sugar as well as in
corn, but he blamed the Gentlemen who had been in office

since the passing of the Emancipation Act, for shutting out the
colonies from obtainirg a supply of labourers from the conti-
nent of Africa.—( Hear. hear.) The Emancipation Act had
succeeded morally, but it had faile I economically, and he
thought some steps ought to be taken to remedy the latter
defect.—(Hear, hear.) He considered that the mea-
sure of the Government was calculated to settle

this question. He thought, therefore, that the Noble Lord at
the head of her Majesty's Government would not be doing jul-
tice to the interests of the country, if be did not take these
circumstances into consideration.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved he would not be discharging his duties, if be did not
make these observations. He was no party to placing the pre-
sent Government in office, but in giving his vote against their
measures, he was not actuated by any party consideration
whatever, but solely from a desire to discharge, to the best of
his abilities, the duties with which he was entrusted.
Mr. DISRAELI said the Noble Lord who moved the
amendment to the motion that the Speaker do leave the
chair, proposed to himself to submit three points' to
the consideration of the House. The first was, that

it was in the power of this country to find three,
legitimate sources of that sugar that was necessary for its con-
sumption; the second. that her Majesty's Ministers, in the
calculations which they had made with respect to the revenue,
had furnished the House with v:ry unsatisfactory prospects ;
and the third, that, in adopting the resolutions which they had
brought forward, they should be sanctioning that traffic in
slaves which the House had so often and so signally reprobated.
—(Hear, hear.) He had listened with great attention to the
speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—a member of the
Cabinet who had risen for the purpose of giving an answer to
the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn. lie had
not been inattentive to any of those addresses which bad fol-
lowed the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though
there might be some of those speeches remark-
able for peculiar characteristics and particular circumstances,
not bearing any relation to the subject immediately before the
House.—( Hear, hear.) Still, looking to those speeches which
had failed to discuss the question with respect to the immediate
point before the House, following in the wako of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer be could find at that moment no feature, no
characteristic, which removed them from the description which
he thought imposeable upon the speech of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer itself. It appeared to him that to the first pro-
position of the Noble Lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had offered an assumption. It appeared to him that the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had encountered the second pro--
position of the Noble Lord with an hypothesis ; and it
appeared to him that that Right Honourable Gentleman
had supposed that he could have vanquished the third
proposition of his (Mr. Disraeli's) Noble Friend with a
sophism.—(Hear, hear.) Now, he (Mr. Disraeli) was pre-
pared, if the House would permit him, to substantiate those
positions.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for
Lynn, in supporting his position that this country could be sap-
plied from legitimate sources with a sufficient and ample quan-
tity of sugar for its consumption— the Noble Lord had offered
his estimates which, if they conic! trust his figures,
certainly proved the dogma which he laid down. Her
Majesty's Ministers had no confidence in that estimate. They
said at once that it was an assumption—the Chancellor of the
Exchequer called it an assumption, but he entered into no
details, and offered no facts contrary to the estimate of the
Noble Lord. The assumption of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer was that, the estimate of the Noble Lord was erroneous,
but it was a remarkable instance, that in proving that the esti-
mate of the Noble Lord was erroneous, the first feature in the
demonstration was that the Noble Lerd had underrated a very
important item in that estimate. Her Majesty's Ministers
had admitted that the produce of the West Indian colonies was
256,000 tons. The Noble Lord had said that the produce of
those colonies was 115,000 tons. Well, therefore,
_ as far as that
first point went, it would seem that the Noble Lord, however

erroneous he might be in his estimates, had not been
inclined to over-estimate the produce of those different
quarters from which the aggregate could be obtained. Her
Majesty's Ministers, who accused the Noble Lord of over-esti-
mating the quantities which we might anticipate receiving, on
this the first item offered an estimate to the House exceed-
ing that which had been suggested by the Noble Lord. That
was at least the prima' facia evidence as far as that item was
concerned. The Noble Lord had not indulged in any
very excessive calculations. If they approached the
second item of the Noble Lord— he meant with reference to,
the Mauritius—he (Mr. Disraeli) believed that her Majesty's
Ministers, notwithstanding their statements, were inclined to,
quarrel with the first estimate of the Noble Lord in supposing
that the Mauritius would supply this country with 50,000 tons
of sugar. The Noble Lord had corrected him by saying that
the number which he had mentioned was 58,000 tons. He
(Mr. Disraeli) thought that the Noble Lord in his speech .
mentioned the figure 50.000 tons. He knew the Noble Lard had
documents in his possession which would have afforded
him an opportunity of offering a correct calculation. He (Mr..
Disraeli) himself had not those returns, but he had that
morning placed in his hands a Mauritius paper, which was, he
believed, a journal of the most respectable character, anal
which afforded an account of the crops of sugar which might
be expected during the present year. They said thati
that crop might be counted upon as 60,000 tons.—( Hear,.
hear.) Well, then, as far as the quantity that they might an-
ticipate receiving from our colonies—as far as the quantity
that they might receive from the Mauritius was concerned—
he thought that it was not in the power of her Majesty's Minis-
ters at all to substantiate their point against the Noble Lord
that he had exaggerated in his estimate. But the Chanc eller
of the Exchequer said, that with regard to the third point,
that the estimate of the Noble Lord had in-,
deed astonished him, and that he could not
for a moment believe that India would offer to
us the quantity which the Noble Lord had supposed that
they would yield, and for which he had given them credit its
his estimate. Now they found that in two portions of the esti-
mate, that in the one the Noble Lord had underrated the cal-
culation of tho Government, and that in the other he had ex-
pected a sum less than that which he was induced to expect by
the documents in his possession, and less than that which woe
confirmed by the authority to which he had referred. They'
had a right to suppose that one so cautious in his estimate had
not at random, and without thought, and with recklessness.
offered to them any calculation which, at least, was not founded
upon data, and that he had not sought to influence the opinion
of that House by a statement on which he had not paid great
thought and research.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Dis-
raeli) begged the Chancellor of the Exchequer
(though he expressed great incredulity on the subject.
of the estimate of Indian produce) to recollect thata
not a single fact, not even an argument had been offered against
the statements of the Noble Lord. He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) had said that it!was extremely astonishing; and the
Honourable Baronet the Member for Beverley, who certainly
upon the sugar question should be a good authority—( Hear,
hear, and laughter)—and to whose opinions they always
littered with great respect—the Hon. Member for Beverley
occupied, as he Lad told them, a most important position 12
the home Government in India—had risen in his place to confirnr
the unsupported assertion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Neither the Hon. Member the Chancellor of the Exchequer
nor the Hon, Baronet the Member for Beverley—who was the
chairman, be believed, of an association connected with the
Indian trade—notwithstanding they expressed their disbelief in
that assertion—neither of those gentlemen came forward to
offer a single argument, or adduce a single fact to
induce the House to disbelieve the estimate of
the
Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) : Now,
in this
Teem' with
regard to the production ,of
li sugar at in rot ithe Exchequer, arid
Member for
eetfono.Beverley, as
endorsedposition taanlidenrabtrfiethd ebyChthane
to the great importance of the question—there was one
-consideration.which had not been brought before the House,
bat which should not be absent horn them at that moment, for
it was a great element in forming their opinion upon this in-
teresting and important question. It was the nature and
quantity of the productions in India. The Noble Lord had
brought forward a great deal of authentic intelligence to sh ow
the amount of British capital now invested in India, and to
show them the energy and the quantity of the British capital
that had been distributed in the working of the es-
tates in India, and the considerable results that might
be anticipated from an encouragement of the investment of that
capital. But what he (Mr. Disraeli) wanted to bring before'
the attention of the House was—for it was most important. ..that
the sugar in India was produced by two classes of persons.—
( Hear.) These were the British capitalists.—(Hear, hear.)
But they were told by a great authority that they needed •no
protection ; there was, however, a class of capitalists
who were producing sugar, who might refuse tro-
-teetion.—( Hear, and loud cheers ) But if they required
,protection; he would show the House that it was protection,
and that alone which would bring great results to their country
—the wealth of England, and not only commercial wealth, bat
political power.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet, the
Member for Beverley, told the House that the sugar .producers
of India required no protection.—(Hear, hear.) Another
Honourable Baronet, who was once a Member of that House,
called a public meeting of those interested in the sugar trade,
and they; met; at his counting house—( Hear, hear )—a
meeting that was never heard of—and they passed
resolutions which nobody ever knew of.—( Hear, hear, and
laughter.) Well, all that might be very true. It might be
very true that there might be sugar producers who were in
favour of the measures of her Majesty's Ministers. It might
be very true that, as the Hon. Baronet the Member for Beverley
said, the sugar producers had not a fair competition. The
Hon. Baronet the Member for Beverley told the House that
the condition of India was improved during the last five years,
although they had not a fair competition. He (Mr. Disraeli)
thought it very possible that the condition of India might have
improved ; it could not have been worse than it was in 1641.
India was then bankrupt. It required but an event—an hour
—certainly but the transition of a post—to prevent her bank-
ruptcy; and nobody will deny this that is in the least con-
versant with Indian affairs. He could prove it from documents
which he had in his hand at that moment, written by those
whose names, if he mentioned them, would be of weight and
authority with that House. He did not wish to enter further
into the subject, but he was prepared to prove it, should th
House demand it. Well, India was improved, no doubt, but at
that time it could not have been worse. He held a letter in his
hand which was exceedingly interesting, though he would not
trouble the House by reading it, but it was written by a
gentleman in India second to none in importance, in intelli-
gence, and patriotism ; and ha observes that " such is the coo-
sequence of our commercial s}stere there, that the country
would become too poor to govern, for they had reduced the
country to pauperism. It is not an insurrection or a con-
spiracy that you hale to fear, but you will never be able to
raise a revenue from a nation of beggars.—( Hear,
hear.)
Your establishment must fall, and before
_ye years are rat. I'os
will Into India."—( Hear, hear.) Then theywa.,elethooldliguthat
five
the state of India was improved. Dut be would