The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-19 00:00:00

)ected the interests of the
ing it forward more actively than

country by not pus.
they had done.
Captain FITZ MA URICE said he would give his vote
in the same manner as he had done upon a former oc-
casion ; he had received a letter from his constituents,
praying that he would not allow any personal feeling he
might have towards the Government to interfere with
his vote upon the present occasion. He might be told
that in voting on this measure he would be voting
against his own party ; but he would be a clever man
who could precisely say which was his party. The
other night he went with the Noble Member for
Lynn into one lobby. That night he would not
find him in it again, although there had been
since that time no change in his (Captain Fitzmaurice's)
opinions. There had been many allusions made to the
decrease of crime, but he could show such weighty
reasons why the Protection Bill should receive the as-
sent of that House, that he did not think any Member
could personally reuse to support the measure. He
would ask Hon. Gentlemen opposite, could they call all
their property their own ? If a man were a worse work-
man than another he would be superseded, and thus
dissatisfaction would be eegendered. He had lived in
most of the counties of Ireland, and found that the fac-
tions not only ejected parties, but prevented those willing
to work from obtaining employment. Under these
circumstances would any landlord find pleasure
in endeavouring to promote the welfare of the
people? He believed that many a man under
the influence of passion had committed crimes which, in
sober moments he bitterly regretted. The great evil of
Ireland was that it was under the influence of factions.
The Hon. Member then adduced several instances of
murder having been committed in various parts of Ire-
land ; and amongst other instances he stated that of a
girl who was murdered in a cottage, her head cut from
her body and nailed to the door.—(Several Members
here exclaimed " When and where.")
Captain FITZ MAURICE—In the county of Gal-
way. He had merely adduced this as one of the many
instances of dreadful outrage which occurred in the
country, and which called for the interference of Parlia-
ment. He thanked the House for their attention to his
observations, and should certainly vote for the second
reading of the Bill.
Mr. HAWES said it was strange that the Gallant
Officer should allude to circumstances that had happened
in Ireland twenty years ago, in order to justify his con-
sent to a Bill which had fOr its object the suppression of
violence that had only recently been recorded as having
occurred. He would admit at once that the delay which
had taken place with respect to the present Bill was
inevitable, and, under the circumstances which the
Governmentwas placed, was fully justifiable. The Hon.
Gentleman then alluded to the statement of Mr. Cahill,
in 1830, as to the number of committals in Ireland, show-
ing that they diminished in number and atrocity up to
the year 1836 ; so that if any judgment were come to
from the number of committals in Ireland with respect
to the amount of crime, it could not be borne out by
facts. Having now stated these facts, lie would now
come to the reasons advanced for the Bill. Was there
then that increase of crime in Ireland which justified the
present measure ? What were the proofs furnished by
the Government ? They put upon the table a variety
of police returns and official criminal tables. When he
examined them, however, he found that the case entirely
failed, and he would now call the attention of her Majes-
ty's Government to these returns. First, he would refer to
the committals. Since 1842, the number was 21,100 ;
in the year 1843, 20,000 ; and in 1844, 19,100. There
was in this return, therefore, a regular progressive dimi-
nution of crime. Nothing could be more decisive of
the decrease of crime in Ireland. The gross decrease
of 1845, as compared with 1844, was 14 per cent. As
to the murders in 1842, they amounted to 189 ; in 1843,
to 101 ; in 1844, to 129 ; and in 1845, to 92—again
showing a marked decrease. As to manslaughter, there
was also a progressive diminution in that species of
crime. So much for the official criminal returns. He
now came to the special returns. He would not dwell
upon outrages which had been committed in Ireland, as
that part of the subject had been so well handled by the
Hon. Member fur Cork, as to render it unnecessary for
him to say a word. In 1842, the number was 6,542 ;
in 1843, 5,875 ; in 1844, 6,327 ; and in 1845, 8,000.
There was in the last year a considerable increase in the
returns. This was owing to the additional number of
threatening notices. But how, he would ask,
would they be able to prevent • that offence by the
present Bill ? These notices might still be given whether
the Bill were in operation or not. As to the outrages, there
were four classes of offences which had increased. The
first was threatening notices—the second was the admi-
nistration of unlawful oaths. But now he would again ask
would this Bill prevent the commission of either of those
offences ? They could not prevent the latter class by
the present Bill. Under these two heads, therefore,
there was no remedy. The third class related to rob-
beries of arms ; but they alrrady had their Arms' Bill,
which had failed to effect the object for which it was
intended; and from the failure of that Bill he would
venture to deduce the failure of this also, as they were
both based upon the same erroneous principles. Let
it be also recollected that under the head of homicides
all persons who had lost their lives at fairs, markets, strug-
gles for land, and from any other cause, were included.
The Hon. Member then quoted the returns of crime
during the years from 1842 to 1846, showing that a
great decrease had taken place. He attributed all the
crime in Ireland to the miserable condition of the pea-
santry. The Government were now adopting the old
and fatal policy which had worked so much evil in that
country. Instead of giving a Coercion Bill, they should
bring forward measures which would better the condi-
tion of the people. He had shown that crime In Ireland
had considerably diminished—this he had proved from
the Government returns, and was this the period to bring
forward such a measure? He found that the value of land
was increasing in Ireland, the woollen trade was in-
creasing, and the consumption of all excisable articles
was also increasing. This at once proved that the state
of the country was much improved, for crime would not
allow anything like prosperity. Under all the circum-
stances which he had brought forward, he felt that he
was justified in opposing this Bill. The social condition
of the Irish people had been more distinctly exposed to
view in England than it ever had been for years before.
There had been Commissioners of considerable talent,
who had been able thoroughly to expose to view the Irish
character. England, asifar as could be seen _from; the
result of the inquiries which had been made, must
prepare to govern Ireland on a far more rational prin-
ciple. This country must be prepared to use Irish in-
strumentality in the direction of so large and important a
nation. These were the views on the subject which he
had felt bound to offer to the House, and
he hoped that the Government wound not
further waste the time of Parliament by
persisting in this measure. Was it acceptable to Ire-
land ? No ; for he had observed that only one gentle-
man in that House—a gentleman of good family and
considerable influence in Ireland—had thought it his
duty to support this measure. No other Irish Member
had in any way assented to the Bill. All the Irish
Members on his side of the House (the Opposition)
had opposed the measure, and all the Irish Members e n
the other side of the House had expressed their belief
that the Bill would be utterly inefficacious for the pur-
poses for which it was framed. One of the consequences
Hof their system of government in Ireland was, that it
had increased the value of property, while it had not
touched or remedied the condition of the people. The
course of injustice towards that country had been so in-
tolerable, that he wondered that as yet no struggle had
been made to check it course.
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON said it would appear
that an attempt was to be made to defeat this measure
by a strange combination of parties, who might be'act-
ing in perfect honesty, but whose conduct, especially
those on that side of the House, would be scarcely con-
sistent with their votes and speeches. He had been in-
clined to have remained silent; but after the speeches
of the Noble Lord the Member for the City of London,
and the Hon. Member who had just sat down, he had
been induced to break silence. He would not go into
the whole facts and figures given by the Hon. Member,
though it had been stated that a considerable diminu-
tion of crime had taken place. With regard to the
crimes committed in the five counties to which special
reference was made, it had been shown that a diminu-
tion had taken place in only one county, while an in-
crease had taken place in the other counties to about
sixty per cent.—(Hear, hear.) What they had
to consider was, whether the ordinary operation
of the law would suffice to meet the evils
complained of, and the probability of the Bill operating
as a remedy. It had been shown by repeated instances,
that the ordinary law could not reach the crimes com-
mitted, and that nothing but some extraordinary remedy,
such as the Bill before the House, would be effective in
reaching the sources of evil. If the Noble Lord the
Member for the City of London came into power, he
(Lord F. Egerton) had no doubt, notwithstanding all his
benevolent intentions, he would soon be obliged to come
to the House to pass a similar Bill to that they were
now considering. He would in that case, if as satisfac-
tory a case was made out for such a Bill as had been
made for the present, feel it to be his duty to support
him. He was quite persuaded that many of the outrages
and crimes complained of arose from the compacts of
secret associations, and ho felt persuaded that were the
power given to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act, when-
ever a district was in a disturbed state, a great deal would
be done towards bringing it into a state of peace.
If the Government had adopted the course recommended
by the Noble Lord, and had come down to that House
to ask for increased military force, he for one was con-
vinced they would have been answered with declama-
tions against the use of the bayonet. He thought this
was a sufficient answer to the charge urged against the
Government by the Noble Lord, that they had neglected
to resort to the usual and constitutional means for re-
ducing or preventing crime in Ireland. It had been con-
tended, in the course of this debate, that the increase
in crime in Ireland was more attributable to political
causes than anything else ; but he (Lord F. Egerton) was
sure it arose out of social evils, and was convinced of the
necessity for passing this measure. There were portions
er which usually characterised their
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The Honourable resorted to.—(Hear, hear.)
supporter of such expressions ;
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Francis Egerton) thought, made
j
when Hon. Members
attacks. The lion.
e
great sacrifices for the sake of a public interest, it ought
as
s(Lotirlde
unseemly and indecorous
Janis-
saries, by quilting expressionsEg er t o expressionsn)
de-
bates ; but he (Lord
thought evidence
might be found for any nonsense or any violence.--
(Cheers.) for Shrewsbury, however,
(Cheers.) He had certainly made a rather lengthy
speech on the subject of the corn-laws at the last elec-
tion, in which he announced his change of

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