The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-21 00:00:00

with regard to the measure, that he would proceed from day to
to-day with that Bill till it was finally disposed of, and postpone
till then any proceedings on the Bill for protection to life in

British Colonies to the timber growing countries of the North
of Europe. But he remembered that the very same prophecy
had been made when the reduction of the duty of 30s. per load
was threatened some years previously, although at the time the
reduction was made it was positively asserted that it would be
utterly destructive of the shipping
intmests. Now, he would
venture to put it as a fact worthy of illustration, and capable
of illustration in the House, whether the greater benefit derived
by the country had not been obtained through the instrumen-
tality of those who had thought fit to change their opinions
and support the measures of the Right Honourable
Baronet at the head of the Government, or those who
remained under the effect of the conviction years ago,
notwithstanding all the circumstances whieh had occurred.
Why, what was the evidence on which the Government had
said that the
altered their opinion ? His Hon. Friend s
ship-
owners, having been made the victims of free-trade, had now
come forward to petition against the measure of the Govern-
ment, and referred to the petition for a proof of the opieions
which they entertained ; but from it it appeared that a gradual
increase had taken place in the number of tons exported into
this country ; in fact, during the last two or three years.
these exportations had increased more than a ration of
tons. There had been a corresponding increase in the steam-
boat trade. Then, with respect to the Canadian tim-
ber trade, he quoted returns, to show that the reduction
of duties had increased the trade, and that shipowners had
consequently Leaped it corresponding advantage.
The returns from Liverpool showed the same result, and
be could assure the House that the trade had increased since
the duties had first been reduced. Mite 3 careful considera-
tion of all these facts, the Select Committee, h‘lab sat in 183.5,
stated that it was their opinion that the difference of dgty of
45.. as compared with North American timber was too great,
and ought to be reduced; and, that having a due regard to the
interest which had been created by the system of protection, a
reduction of the protective duty, soot exceeding 15s. a load,
might be made. If they considered the facts of the ease,
Hon. Gentlemen might see that the same kinds of timber
were not employed for the same ourposes ; and by increasing
the demand for that used in constructing the larger powien of
hous -s' they would increase the demand for the other kinds
of wood; also for brickr, and other exciseable article:; used,
above all, they would increase the demand for labour. And
he did consider that his Hon. Friends had, on very rational
conclusions, introduced the measare; for himself, he believed
that like causes would produce like effeete, and be would ask
the House to agree to this proposition.
Mr. H, HIN DE wished to know what would be the value of
the Canada, if they should establish a complete system of free
trade ?---( Hear, hear. )
Mr. A. CHAPMAN said that it was with the deepest feel-
ings of regret that he differed on this question from the Go-
vernment of the Right Hon. Gentleman a and his object in
rising was, to draw the attention of the House to the injury
which might be ieflieted by a transfer of the Canadian trade to
the Baltic. Timber had ever been considered as a fair subject
for taxation, and he very much feared that the proposed mea-
sure would be by no means beneficial to their shipping inte-
rest ; and he should be exceedingly glad if he found his expec-
tation deceived, arid if the benefits which had been stated by
her Mejesty'e Government should arise from the measure.
Captain HARRIS considered that if this measure received
the sanction of the House, it would inflict a lasting injury on
the service to which he belonged. He had before stated that
the tariff of the Right lion. Gentleman had worked extremely
well, but he did believe that they had arrived on that tariff to
the minimum of protection which could be given by a paternal
Government.—( Hear, hear.) He had not been able to arrive
at the number of ships which were engaged in the channel
trade. lithe Secretary of the Board of Trede was Correct, the
number of vessels which were engaged in the trade with Canada
was 1,200, anti the number of men ;employed 15,000. The
most of these ships made two trips in the season, and when he
commanded one of her Majesty's ships-of-war off that
station, he had no difficulty in procuring a supply
of from 200 to 300 men. This proved the great advantage
of keeping up the shipping trade between the two countries.
It had been stated that no petitions had been presented from
the colonies with regard to the present question. Now, he had
to state in reference to that, that they had no time to present a
petition on the subject. On the last occasion when the re-
duction took place on these duties, five petitions were presented
aginst the reduction from the Governor-General of Canada,
and twelve from New Brunswick. He would not detain the
House longer, but, believing that the measure would be ruin-
ous to the mercantile interest, he would give it his most decided
opposition.
MrePALMER said that that was amongst the fiche interests
which were attacked by the mischievous measures of the Go-
vernment. They would be pernicious to every interest, but
more especially to the shipping interest. So far
from the reduction which had taken place being
productive of benefit, he considered the effect was quite the
reverse. The Right Hon. Gentleman had taken all the respon-
sibility of these measures from first to last, and he had evinced
a determination to carry them into effect notwithstanding every
opposition. He could only say with regard to this measure
that some time since he recollected, when an Hon. Member,
now no more, had made a reference to it, and to the im-
portance which this country had attained under the naviga-
tion late, as a reason why any interference with this question
should be well consdered, the answer was, that the changes
then conternp'ated would not be injurious. He did net believe
that the Right lion. Baronet wished to bring mischief upon the
interests of the country, but his measures would certainly have
that effect. Whence, he would ask, was all this universal phi-
lanthropy, that they should be called upon to cast away the
bread of their children? Was the time now come when the lion
should lie down with the lamb ? lie was very much afraid that
the Noble Lord (Russell) had only opened the door to let in
the fox.—( Laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman, after alluding
to the evil consequences which would result from the reduction
of the silk duties, proceeded to say that in consequence of the
change in the navigation laws he was obliged to sell ships at
5,000/., which cost him 20,000/. He hoped he would
not be considered as speaking personally offensive to the
Right Hon. Gentleman, when he stated his belief
that he was not acting in an ingenuous manner with either
that House or the country, with reference to his recent mea-
sures. The statement which the Right Hon. Baronet made
the other night was more like that of an advocate or a special
pleader, than of a great statesman. In 1820 the number of
vessels employed were 29,969 ; in 1840, 29,183 ; so that there
was an increase merely of 6 per cent. He admitted there had
been a large increase in the tonnage, which probably might be
owing in some measure to the constructing of the vessels ; but
how ships could only increase at the rate of 6 per cent. and
tonnage at the rate of 20 per cent., lie could not tell. British
tonnage between this country and Norway, Sweden, Denmark,
and Russia, in 1806, amounted to 107,118 tons, and in 1844 to
130,100 tone, which showed an increase of 20 per cent., not-
withstanding the increase in the price of timber. The ton-
nage of the Foreign trade in 1826, was 65,564 tons, while in
1844 it amounted to 528,722 tons, showing an increase of 850
per cent. During the last two or three years the British ship-
ping to the Baltic amounted to 109,000 tons, and in 1844 to
130,000 tons. Foreign ships during the same periods respect-
ively amounted to 341,553 and 528,722 tons. The amount of
the timber which, during last year, went into the pocket cf the
foreigner, was 1,533,00 N That was the account he literally
received ; while the Canadians received Is. 6d. a load less
than they did before. The present measure would still fur-
ther affect the British shipping. The freight to Canada was
31s. a load, while that to the Baltic was only 14s. It was now
215., but the usual rate was 145., so that they could not take
the difference between Baltic and Canadian freightage at less
than 14s. per load, It might be said that the Baltic timber
was preferable to the Canadian (Hear, hear)—
but he considered that that advantage even if it were
admitted, would not counterbalance the evils which would re-
sult if the reduction of the present protection were carried into
effect. He admitted, however, that better seamen would be
made by a trip to the Baltic, exposed to the vicissitudes of the
North Sea, than by a voyage across the Atlantic. It had been
said that different petitions were presented from shipowners in
this country in favour of the present reduction. He did not
know who all the parties were, but he knew some of them.
He knew three names which were attached to the petition pre-
sented from London, and he could undertake to say that they,
at least, were not engaged in general shipping. One of them
was connected with the West India trade, another was en-
gaged in the colonial trade, and they were all strong partisans.
Their testimony, therefore, in favour of the pre-
sent measure, could not be considered uninterested.
There was no doubt the Right Hon. Baronet was perfectly
satisfied that a hat he proposed was for the good of the country;
so far he had perfect confidence in him, but lie, nctwithstand-
ing, could not help stating his belief that the Right lion. Gen-
tleman was in error. He was at a loss to know what benefit
this country would derive from such a measure. He could only
find it likely to benefit foreigners. It was a measure embrac-
ing the grand principle of free trade as proposed by her Ma-
jestey's 111is,isters—it was a measure which called upon that
House to withdraw all protection from the trade of this country
—to withdraw as it were the protection of the parent from the
child. He could understand the principle of free trade in this
country, so far as it allowed a reciprocity of trade amongst
themselves, but he could not agree to a sy stem which gave all
the benefit to foreigners at the expense of the people of Eng-
land. He could not agree to a principle which gave to Prus-
sia a right to trade to all our ports, when Prussia herself was
so jealous cf her own interests as to refuse anything like
a reciprocity of the benefits conferred upon her.
Mr. WARBURTON said it was well known that he was
not then engaged in the shipping trade, although he at one
time had been interested in it. Between 1841 and 1842, the
shipping trade of this country was greatly interested in the tim-
ber-trade, and at that period they were not contented with having
a differental duty of 455., they contrived to have the duties so
altered as to give the advantage to the European trade. At
that time the seven-inch deal was charged at as high a duty as
timber of considerably larger climernions. In 1842, however,
the duty was reduced, and taking the averages of the timber
imported since that year, it was found that the colonial timbers
had not been reduced in value, notwithstanding that the duty
on foreign importation was reduced from 455. to 25c. He
feared thatethe importation of colonial timbers had increased
to the amount of 30, while the foreign had increased 20 per
cent ; and in the year 1845 the colonial timbers had increased
17 per cent. over that of foreign timber. But this increase
did not apply to one sort of timber alone—it would be found to
be highly favourable to all qualities. Was it then to be said
that while so many improvements were going on in this
country, so many railwas and other constructions as were
taking place, the Government were to allow them to stand
still, and so much timber abroad, which was required for the
benefit of this country ?—(flear, hear.) Were they to allow
the colonial timber to be raised to an exorbitant price by
the continuance of high duties?—( ieeer, hear.) The Go-
vernment had done their duty in proposing an alteration of
this system, and he would say that the Legislature would be
highly wrong if they were to oppose the present measure. The
rise of the trade in American timber must be dated from its
Iwo expedition? to Copenhagen. Before then there was not a
Norwegian naval captain who did not wear on his breast the
medals received for their services to this country. Hear,
hear.) Since then, however, the interests of the Norwe-
gians were mixed up with the trade of foreign countries,
and more especially with France, a country so great in her
naval armaments. With the finest ports in the world on the
Norwegian coasts, and so close to the Baltic, it behoved them
to consider before they would place a bann upon their trade—it
behoved them to confider whether it was a wise policy to allow
rho Norwegians to become so closely connected with France.
Should a war take piece between this country and France—not
that he apprehended any such calamity—but still such was not
unlikely, in all human probability. Was it, he would say, a
wise policy, that a country with so great a nary, and a country
which was continually increasing her naval powers, should allow
her to have all the timber trade of the Baltic to herself. If this
system was to be continued, they could not reckon upon the
support of the Norwegian seamen at a time of war, for their
sympathies would b 3 with another power. He again begged to
be understood that he did not think that they would have re-
course to war, but that, if they did, the result would he what he
had stated, namely, the loss of the services of some of the most
experienced seamen which this country could wish for at a time
of need. lie was very glad -to find that they
were going to restore the trade of Norway by the
measures proposed by her Majesty's Government.
There were other reasons why the Government of this country
should encourage the trade of Norway. It might be that Nor-
waysaythereforesee; but,
politicalorallthe would, at one time or other, be engaged in a war against
Russia, or other circumstances might arise which it would be
impossible
mercantile
h e
would
restoring the navy of Norway to the cl. io • in con n it was be-
fore the war of 1793. He highly approved of the Government
measure, and would give it his cordial support.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK said he concurred with the Hon.
Meinber opposite that there were political as
reasons for this country keeping up its connexion with Norway;
but he would contend for it that there were reasons equally

Ireland. - -
Sir ROBERT PEEL—I can assure the Noble Lord that I
never felt greater anxiety in my life with regard to any mea-
sure than Ido with respect to the corn-law. I have received
communications from different parts of the country, and from
parties adverse to the measure, praying that some decision
should be come to forthwith on the question of the corn-laws.
In the first place, it was to be desired on account of the state of
the crops in this country, that there should be free access to the
corn in bond, that it might be mixed with the corn in this
country fer seed:; and on that account, as well as on account of
the inconvenience in other respects which would result from
the delay, it would be desirable that this decision should be
come to as soon as possible. In the event of this Bill becoming
law, foreign corn would be admitted at a duty of 4s. per
quarter, instead of 18s., as at present, and under these circum-
stances of course no corn would be taken out of bond till it was
definitely known what course world be pursued with respect to
the measure. In point of fact less corn had been sold
in those towns, the averages from which determine the
price of corn, than had been sold for some time previouo
Besides, he had to observe, that the greatest inconvenience
was likely to arise to separate very important interests. As
fur instance, with respect to tic Custom Duties Bill, the
Treasury, in accordance with the established usage, had
directed the custom-house authorities to admit all articles in-
cluded in the tariff now before the House, at the reduced rates
of duty; a bond being taken from the importers to secure the
payment of the higher rate of duty in the event of the Bill
not passing the House. Under this reguia'ion, all the linen,
woollen, and cotton fabrics, had been admitted, and all manu-
factures of that class were admitted at the present moment, and
he proposed to receive all other manufactures at the reduced
rate of 10h per cent. Now, he was anxious to bring this
debate to as early a conclusion as possible, because the bonds
taken from the several parties at the reduced rate would
be much more likely of redemption ; and, possibly, great in-
convenience might be prevented, not only to the Government
but to the public at large. Under these circumstances he was
very anxious for the settlement of the reduction which the
Government had proposed on the iinportatien of articles of
foreign produce. That was the first ground of his anxiety
for the conclusion of the discussion on the Corn Pill. Yet
he was bound to express the opinion of the Government upon
the great importance of the Bill sent down from the House of
Lords for the prevention of crime in Ireland, and which now
stood on the notice-book for a first reading. The course, then,
which he proposed to pursue was, to fix the second reading of
the Corn Bill fur Monday next. The debate on that Bill
might very possibly terminate on Thursday, and in that case
he would fix the first reading of the Bill for the prevention of
assassination in Ireland for the Monday following. But as it
might possibly happen that the discussion on the Corn Bill, as
anticipated by his friend to the right, might possibly terminate
before the Thursday, he would, in that case, fix the first read-
ing of the Irish Bill for Thursday. The only dirmulty he ex-
perienced on that point was, that he should not then be en-
abled to give the usual notice on the books. But of this the
Noble Lord might be assured, that on a matter of so much im-
portance he would give all the notice which the circumstances
would allow, bosh to the House and to the country, of his in-
tention to proceed with the Bill. He found that the debate on
the subject of railway termini in the metropolis had been ad-
journed, but on its resumption on Moodie, he would be pre-
pared to give the assent of her Majesty's Government to the
recommendation of the Commi' tee.—( Flier.)
THE ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the order' of the day for going Into Committee on the
Customs Bill being read,
The Marquis of ORCESTER said he would not occupy
the time of the Home at any length by the observations be
should make in prefacing a resolution Which he had to move.
Government was now going to place Baltic timber nearly an
the same footing as Canada, and what did the House think
would be the effect of such a step? Why, the Canadian
trade in timber was almost all in the hands of British mer-
chants, while the Baltic trade was carried on by Dant
Swedes, and Prussians. Now, were they to legislate for the
foreigner in preference to the English? If they were, he
would ask how was the British shipowner, without protection,
to contend against such odds as these? The Hon. Gentleman
the Member fur Wolverhampton had said that a foreigner would
be surprised to see the course pursued by Hon. Members on
the Ministerial side of the House, but he (the Marquis of
Worcester) rather thought the foreigner would be more sur-
prised to see the course pursued by the Government, who were
removing the taxes on foreigners, and placing them on English-
men.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. HINDE (who rose amidst loud cries of " Divide"
from the Opposition) said that he did expect that after the
Noble Lord had stated his objection to the proposition of her
Majesty's Government some Member sitting on the Treasury
benches would have arisen to offer some explanation of the
reasons which induced the Government to postpone this great
and startling alteration in the duties on timber. It could
hardly be that her .Majesty's Government, in the great altera-
tions they were making, considered, that having established
the general principle of the reduction of duties, that timber,
as a matter of course, should be included in that reduction.
He would rather have deferred his remarks on this debits
until some explanation had been given by her Majesty's
Government, but he was unwilling to go to a division on this
great question without stating his own views upon it. He had
the misfortune to defer from her Majesty's Government on
almost every reduction of duty on the articles mentioned in
the tariff. He confessed that he viewed the scheme of her
Majesty's Government, formed, no doubt, with a good inten-
tion, with apprehension, for he was sure that it would be a
futile attempt to promote the general prosperity of this country
by inflicting injuries on individual interests.—(Hear, hear. )
He was aware that her Majesty's Government were proud
that on this occasion they were supported by certain ship-
owners in this kingdom. He did not know what importance
to attach to the opinion& expressed by these shipowners,
when the same parties had on a former occasion
petitioned against the carrying of any such measure as the pre-
sent into effect. He knew that it might be that charge of
opinion and change of parties, without any cause assigned,
found favour in the eyes of her Majesty's Ministers, for " fel-
low feeling makes us wondrous kind." When he knew the
great importance attached to these petitions, he could not help
supposing that some sympathy of that kind existed between
her Majesty's Government and the petitioners. He was not
disposed to dispute the respect due to this kind of petition, but
the House would be under a most erroneous impression if they
imagined that these gentlemen represented a large portion of
the ship-owners' interest. He would not venture to say what
was the general feeling of the shipping interest, as he would
say that the gentlemen petitioning the House in favour of the
alteration of duty formed far the smaller portion of the shipping
interest. This House and her Majesty's Government would be
led into a great error if they supposed that the ship-owners,
proposing an alteration of duty, had become disciples of free
trade. They considered that they had been the first victims of
free trade in earlier years, and they now indulged in the feeling,
the not unnatural feeling, of thinking that the protection
which was denied to themselves should be withheld from
their fellow-subjects. He would now read two passages from
the petitions which were presented by the Right Honourable
Gentleman from the shipowners of Sunderland, and he did
consider that the Right Honourable Baronet would have acted
much more wisely if he had contented himself with simply
moving their reception, without having them printed, because
the reasoning of the petitioners was very much at variance with
the prayer of the petitions. They state that they have
been for many years unprotected in their intercourse
with other nations; they did not consider that it was
just to call on them to pay for the protection of others.
He would not justify this feeling, but it was very na-
tural. However, the shipowners were much deceived
if they considered that the landed interest maintained a protec-
tive duty on timber to serve their own interests. They sought
protection for the benefit of the shipowners themselves—and he
would state that he believed the shipowners had very recently
changed their opinions with tepee' to protection, and that
the change which had come over them was more recent than
that of her Majesty's Government. In 1832 the vessels en-
tered inwards were—British, 1,930,846 tons; and foreign,
561,047 tons. In 1845, British vessels were 3,669,853 tons ;
and foreign vessels, 1,3t3,735 tons. It was perfectly true that
there was a large increase in British tonnage, but it was not
so large as the increase on the foreign tonnage. The increase
in British ships was under 90 per cent., and the increase in
foreign ships was 140 per cent.—( Cheers. ) The tonnage
cleared outwards was—in 1832, 1,637,C;93 ; and the foreign,
466,333. In 1815, British tonnage was 2,947,000; and
foreign, 1,361,910. The increase in British wee 1,310,0L0,
and in foreign tonnage 95,000. lir British it was
80 per cent., but in foreign 190 per cent.—(Cheers.)
In the number of vessels carrying tonnage both inwards and
outwards were included a very large amount of steam-vessels—
' vessels which bore very little, if any, cargo at all ; and the con-
sequence was, that a very undue proportion in the whole was
given to the number of vessels carrying cargo. He would
show by a number of figures the number of steam-vessels
which were included in the Government returns. In 1841, the
whole number of steam-vessels belonging to the United King-
dom in the Channel Isles was 791, the tonnage of which was
95,793, and in the same year there were entered inwards
17,318 vessels, whose tonnage was 3,234,E00.—(Hear, hear.)
Now, he had adduced those few facts to prove this—that it
was not because the shipowners had flourished in consequence
of the free-trade measures of the Government, that they had
petitioned the House to repeal the duties upon timber. Their
reason was, because they believed that the free-trade system
had already done its worst—(Protectionist cheers)—and that
by its more general application to every other class the injuries
which had been inflicted on themselves might be extended to
others. It was perfectly true that timber had cheapened by
the measures of her Majesty's Government. It had been shown
in a petition which he had the honour of presenting to that
House from the Shipowners' Society of London, that the
amount of duty paid on timber which had been used in ship-
building formed nearly five per cent. of the entire amount
used in this country. He was aware that when he presented
that petition that it was met by a cheer. The meaning of
that cheer he perfectly understood to have been this, that the
shipowners were not benefited by having the duties on colonial
timber reduced. But he would say that it was a very serious
consideration to the people of this country whether they were
to do injury to persons holding large tracts of land in England,
and whether this country was to view with indignation the
prospect of another war, brought about by the conduct of thu
present Government, and which would, of course, deprive them
of a sufficient supply of timber exhich was so vital an element in
the commerce of this country. He did not hesitate to sar, that
if her Majesty's Government reduced the discriminating
duties between British and colonial timber, they
would entail an incalculable injury upon this country.
He (the Hon. Member) had heard, with much pleasure, the
sentiments of her Majesty's Government, with regard to their
determination to maintain a firm position with respect to the
Oregon territory; but at the same time he believed, that if the
measure then before the House were carried into law, they
might not alone get rid of the Oregon territory, but also make
a present of the Canadas.—(fleer, hear.) One would sup-
pose that the members of her Majesty's Government were di-
rected by a hostile feeling towards the colonies, and particu-
larly to the valuable colony of Canada.—( Hear, hear.) He
regretted that anti-colonial policy should be pursued by the
Government ; but on that subject he would not further in-
trude
the ti
n,dronotuh.e,:louse. However, he could not sit down without
Petting a question to Hon. Members on the Ministerial side
7atihopedieeat.rhtt
extent,
n—r
te.ci
ofsw e
freer. trade
o questionuatn Li s what
trcarriedandcandidit advantage te
principlewo u l d t
nier advantage— at all and on that ground he
He was of opinion that
woall give, his cordial set Tort to the minion of the Noble
?YELL said that his lion. Friend who had
Lord.-121-Areßairi
just sat down commenced his observations by recommending
to the Government a course which he thought was
much httter than that they wereadopting,—(Hear.)
'Mill regard to the present measure now before Parliament,
and to the opinion which had been expressei in the petition to
which the lion. Gentleman referred, there was a singular con-
fliction of opinions. His lion. Friend had referred to a peti-
tion presented to that House some years ago, in which it had
been stated that their interests would be ruined by the reduction
of the duties under 30/. per cent. Now, in the comparison
which had been instituted in the measure proposed by his Hon.
Friend opposite, and that proposed by the Ministers, he had
only to refer to the difference of popularity between the two
measures—(Cheers)—and to show the respect which was en-
tertained for the measures proposed by her Majesty's Ministers,
and to those proposed by the party with which his Hon. Friend
generally acted. In the petition which had been presented by
the shipowners in 1842, it had been asserted that in the event
of the reduction of the duties under 251. per cent. that
the whole of the timber trade would be transferred from the '

E SUN, LONDON,SATURDAY EVENING, MA:

n strong,exon asntraodnage r fored
itdh this
nate u
thinkn te y keepingthat th
regarded merely as a shipping emestion, or as a class question
bue as an imperial questier nfeto h' would ell 'h., trenteen
wifithnoCtpo,lintualcdobn;
of the House to the prices of timber in this year and in 1841.
In 1841 the priceof Canadian timber was 41. 10s., and in 1846
it was the same. The price of European timber in 1641
was 51., and in 1816 it was the same ; therefore, who gained
by the tariff of 1842? It certainly was not the British con-
sumer. On the whole, he felt that he should vote in
favour of the amendment of the Noble Lord, the Member for
Gloucester. But lest it might be said that he was actuated by
patty motives in the vote he should give upon this question, he
thought it right to offer those few observations in explanation of
his reasons for the vote he intended to give.
Mr. HENLEY said he did not think that sufficient reason
had been given to the House by the Government for the pro-
posed change. He could not agree with the Hon. Member
for Kendall, that the loss of revenue by the reduction
on timber last year had been what he had stated.
The very extraordinary demand that had taken place in the
raiiaey world, had, no doubt, increased the dernarin fee thetber
in a great degree ; and in a question of the present 'lintel, he
would be disposed to irnsider that as very material, lie
should say that some of the eirgoo,eente used by the night
Hen. Secretary of the Tieasury required soneehieie offi-
cial assurance he bring them forward ; but he forget to frit
the House one thing, nenielyi that the navy estimates were at
present between six and seven mit-omo Every ,encn knew
that the timber repired for naval building rather seneee.
The shipowners of the 6944 try were a highly'-protected body,
which should not be loot sight of, The ftlizht fiats. Baronet,
at the head of the Ministry had told the lteale end thp
?gentry that he for one could no longer maintain the principle
of proteneeiooi that statement he made broadly and eleerly at
the commencement or ehn oreaent session ; but it did not un-
frequently happen that persona, in epatereg tiieeeal atee.eteents,
4ftch otershot the mark; and he (thels;ernber). then
challenged tim Wright Icon. Gentleman to prove that he
believed in the sincerity of his qwr; iteterpeote.-( Heah,
hear.) • If he did believe thee releehlten pi a ,tact' op
duty benefited the community generally why not allow the
Swedes or Norwegians to convey sugar into this country from
elm West Jndies? -( Hear, hear.) He felt warmly on the
subject foe reaeolis perk' pal. tp, himself Poll he should sly that
as certain as effect followLl caV-e so ineoin toe emensrg,
by adopting those measures, instead of gaining, be exposed to
greater competition -( Hear, hear. )
meelhe chpold agree in a great measure with the Hon.
Gentleman whoakrecedeo hush, but be §imold aleo complain of
the citipst!on• a sl og.d eotnplain that th§ duty heel trot beep
entirely taken off, ea ha knew pp aetiole, after pronisioes, of
more importance to the general community than that af irebee,
-( Hear, hear.) What were the cireurostences of the ship-
owners? They complained that the materials with which they
built their ships were higher than the materials in foreign
markets. lly the paper willch he held in his hand he per-
ceived thett the hull of a British ship coet front 4/. to s}. pee top
more than that of the foreign built ship ; in feet, the fereigper
could build three ships fee g. eupi of meney that wool(' only
build two in England. That was an iliconventence df
wh ch shipowners complained. In 1815, in the Court of Pro-
prietors in the East India House, he declared that he wished
to 'see the Ermlieh ,:hipping then at the price of 50/. per ton,
reduced to 101. 10E. per top. Ile was then regertipd as a
visionary. lie would state a very traportaen, feet, woh re-
ference to the duties on timber. In the north of Scotland,
and the coast of Ire' pd, the timber for Imata was '4ooi. per
cent. dearer than on the continent, and therefore tear boats
went to sea iu a condition thee no foreign boat would venture
out in. The consequence was that many naluable seament
al well as the fishermen, were drowned. It was
lamentable to End that a large quantify of
the capital of our shipowners wee vested itl Norwegian
and Danish ships. He had heard from one shipewner resid-
ing in Lincolnshire, that he was very anxious to build 'hips in
England, but the price was too great for him, and he was ne-
cessarily compelled to go to the country where ships were
cheapest. Was this to continue ? The system carried out
by the Right lion. Baronet said plainly that tae wotjld no ,
longer base our capital employed in foreign ships, but in ships
of our own building. No country possessed steel' advantages
as England, and no country availed iteelf of it so little. Anil
what is the result? We heard in every storm, at least every
now and then, of our Cshing-boats going out to the number of
fifty and sixty, and out of that number ten or twelve were
swamped before they could reach a place of safety. He be-
lieved, if the duty were taken off, we could build our ships on
the same footing as the Danes. We had had many proofs of
that effect, He believed that there had been laid on the table
of the House some documents proving the misery of many of
the artisans of this country, and to when was that owing -hut
to the high price of timber. Those documents proved that
many of them, working for twelve hours a day, instead of
going to a cellar and sleeping in contaminated air, ought to go,
in order to enable them to continue the work the next day, to
a place where they could breathe the pure atmosphere. It was
by the legislation of this House that there unfortunate min
were kept in the state they were. At an age when they ought
to be enabled to cam y out their experience, they were
more fit for the workhouse, or premature death. He
(Mr. Hume) said that every Honourable Member opposing
the reduction of the timber duties was dooming hundreds of
his fellow beings to occupy the miserable cellars he had spoken
of. He would now turn to another point, and look to the effect
on the farmer. Every one who knew the expense attendant
on farming would know that it was preferable to use the home
timber instead of the American. But the farmers had b, en
obliged to have recourse to the Baltic end American timber
to enable them to make their buildings with some degree of
stability. If that House would repeal"' the duties on timber,
they would enable the farmer to carry out his eceupation at
less expense and with more benefit to himself and the country.
With regard to the manufacturing interest, if they removed
the duty from timber entirely, they would place our manufac-
ture on a footing with the whole world. There was no article,
next to provision, which he thought would be so beneficial as
timber if the price were reduced. He was, therefore, willing
to vote for the entire repeal of the duty.
Lord a. BENTINCK said that, in rising to approve of the
amendment which was brought forward with so much modesty
-so much ability and per=petuity-by his Hon. Friend the
Member for East Gloucestershire, he assured the house that
in the speech with which he commenced the debate he gave
promise of great future ability. lie (Lord G. Bentinek) would
not on Friday last have asked the House to adjeuened the dm.
bate if he had not thought that the timber dune:, mixed as
they were with the condition of our colcnies, were most impor
tant. The question with regard to them resolved itself into
three different points; first, a condition of the revenue, and the
' relieve that a relaxation of the duty would afford to people
of this country. Secondly, it resolved itself into the question
as to how far we should continue to maintain protection in our
colonies ; and, thirdly, into the consideration whether or not
they should continue to maintain their maritime importance-
(Heir, hear, and loud cheers)-by injuring that portion of
trade which gave the widest and greatest employment to British
seamen. Many returns, and many statements of figures,
had been laid before that House by her Majesty's Ministers
at different times; and at other times those statements
emanated from the Board of Trade. He would commence by
showing how little dependence was to be placed on a super-
ficial observation of the figures returned by the Board of
Trade. A lamented relative of his once said that the last
thing to which he paid any attention, and on which he pieced
any reliance, was a statement of figures and facts that were
made in that House, and that was more especially observable
in the returns of shipping when made by the Board of Trade.
To show how difficult it was to rely on any superficial observe-
Hon of the returns of the Board of Trade, it was only neces-
sary to refer to the statement made by Mr. Porter in his work,
with reference to the trade in 1841. In one page of that
voluminous document, the return given is that the total mars-
time force of steam-vessels amounted to 1,700 ships, with a tune
nage of 3,300,000 tons. The number of stearn.vessels we
possess, instead,pf being 1,700, was upwards of 791, and
the average of their tonnage was only 95."307, though
it had been swelled to the enormous amount
stated. The result of such a return as this would be, that
if a sloop measured only fifty tone, and manned by only two
men and a boy, were to make two trips in a month to Ostend,
making in the whole year twenty-four trips, that sloop, of
which the wages would be about 741. per annum, would be
placed on a par with a British Indianian of 709 toss. A re-
turn was placed on the table of the 11.orse that morning,
showing the number of ships engaged in the trade of this
country. From this it appeared, that the number of ships
employed in the piano trade was 656, which brought into the
country cargoes annually to the amount of 1,000,000 tons. In
this trade alone there were employed 11,500 seamen, receiv-
ing iu wages 200,0001. Now let them compare this trade with
the steam ships of the country, which had been referred to.
The latter were in number but 791, with a tonnage of 93,736.
There was, therefore, no comparison between a trade which
employed but 5,000 or 6,000 seamen, like the steam-trade,
with a trade like the guano, that employed 11,50(1. Such
was the value of the guano- trade in comparison with this other
most important branch of their maritime navy. He would
now proceed to the subject of price. A great deal had been
said on the benefit to the consumer that would arise
from the reduction of the duty on timber, and
how their American colonies would be benefited by
the alteration in the differential duties. A great deal had
been said about the benefits of the alteration in 1812. Ile
had examined into the question, and would submit his results
to the House. His authority on the Banic timber was the
house of Messrs. Radcliffe and Co., of Liverpool, and the figures
were derived from a branch of that House in Elsinore. It was
stated that the price of yellow pine in 1839, was 9d. a foot. In
1840 it was being an average on the two years of 94d,
per foot. Taking 1i42, the year of which they heard so
much from her Majesty's Government, what was the result ?
Why, that which in 1839 and 1840 cost on an average 9d. a
foot was reduced to 74(1.---( Hear, hear.) That was the whsle
extent of the reduction. The price of yellow pine in the same
year, 1842, was 44d., while the previous year it was 4nd.,
showing that the reduction had been ird.-( Hear, hear.)
That was the only difference in the two periods. The re-
duction had been from 13 per cent. on the one and ten per
cent. on the other.-( Hear.) With regard-to Baltic timber, he
could refer to a pamphlet published by an eminent Member
formerly a Member of the Cabinet, written to show the bene-
fits that were likely to flow from the alteration in the differen-
ti l duties. The writer said, at the time he wrote, that the
change had not been long enough in operation to show the
benefits, but that they would be shown in abeut a twelvemonth
afterwards. He stated that Dantzic and illemel timber in
January, 1812, was 5/. 12s. 6d. In January, 1845, the duty
had been reduced 30s. per load. Now what Wes the price in
the latter year? It averaged from 4'. 17s. to. 41. 100, and it
was reduced at the lowest to 4/. Bs. 92., so that, comparing the
price of 1845 with that of 1842, the reduction was 11. 3s. ad.-
(Hear, hear.) Now he (Lord G. Bentinek) would supply the
price of 1846. According to Prince's Price Curren', from
which he quoted, the price in January, 1846, of timber for
Dantzie. and Memel in the port of London, varied from
4/ 10s. to 5/.-( Hear, hear.) Showing that though
the duty had been reduced 30s. per load, the price to
the consumer was reduced but 10s, 6.1. ; the rest of the
went iato the pocket of the foreign grower.-(Cheers from the
protection benches. ) Mr. Glatisnne, not content whit this,
goes to Liverpool to make out his ease. In 1841, he eays, that
the prices of Darizie and Memel timber wns from netld. to 27e.
per foot. In 1842 it was 25d., while in 1845 it n as 204(1. ;
showing that the redaction of 1845, as compared with !8 :6,
was 6ift. per foot, which was egnal to 275. Id. per load. 1842,
as compared with 1845, s} owed a redaction of 3nol. per fait, er
190 10d. per lila I. In 1541, the fereign p oducer put 2s. I Id.
in his pocket.-( Hear, hear. ) In Liverpool, dung the be-
ginning, of the present year, the average price was 231. to 2.14.
dliustgieisvicnagmnelirs.t,(,.l,l)a;:,iertaotei.em,e.he benefit of his year after the new
and comparing Ite46 with 18-11, the
reduction in price had only been 13s. 6d. per lead, or 34d. per
foot ; and cernpared with 1842, the reductionhad been but 53. nit per load. This showed
that out of the 30s. reduction in duty the foreign
producer had pocketed 245. 9i 1.-(Lood cheers from the Con-
servative benches.) The trade with Canada had increased,
not because the du'y had been reduced, but on account. of the
great extension of the railway system. The continuation of
railways had led to a great demand for timber, and Rile had
given an immense impetus to this department of foreign trade.
Such was set forth in the printed circular, printed in Liver-
pool, on this subect.-(llear, hear.) The great demand
for timber was there attrihuted to the great num-
ber of ralway Bills that had passed the Legislature.
He did not see the Hon. Member for Sunderland in his place,
or ha would have appealed to him with confidence whether
a foot the less would be purchased for railway purposes if the
duty had remained the same? He knew well what his answer
would have been. He would have declared to the Horse that,
as far as the increased consumption of timber went, that in-
crease arose from railway speculation alone, and not from the I
reduction of duty. That reduction of duty necessarily inferred

a considerable loss to the revenue. Another thing appeared,
that tint for this reduction—the increased railway spccul at tons
leading to inbrkshth consumption—hut forthissre,druc(itioinn
hJ
sahl the Catiedliti i3Olonirs would neither have suffered
price of timber, nor in the amount of exportation. His Rig
Hon. Friend the first Minister of the Crown appealed to the 78%5;
of Liverpool, and drew a comparison of the tonnage
el
as compared with his favourite year of 1842. He b.ileBv4eds,
he said, that there were 222,000 tonseenatered inwsrds ,
and only 188,000 tons in 1842 ; and h pea
justification le d
duties.t o thxisn tg be
(Lord of the alteration of the timbp er
(Lord George Bentinck) would show the House how current
his Right Hon. Friend' was while maingth eseemr pein
itotetioennts.live
would read from the circular published by .
~
showing what had been the trade sincee
at the
hsrea
!'lures
glutt;
opus His
Right Hon. Friend had the thiv?rtta _ eabee ihe +eel
side, for they had not yet been laid on tree
h.
1 and here he tleoaglit the Hahne., and tkhhe War 4feThql
1 who sat around him, lead good teason to eomplain thht ittrrna:
tion had been kept beck from them. It was nti•! !!:,waa
not sere that it was not seveh,. weeks since he had moved '
f the number pewee entered inwerd for the last
norm That return had not yet been laid before them,
and it was crily that morning that they had got a return moved
far on the 28th of January. It was sent from the Customs on
the 14th of March, and .hey only got it that morning. It
epetaiped Ore, ere sea, or seven pages full of figures, and yet it
had been printed on the succeeding morning, but the House
had not been put in possession of it. From it the Right Hon.
Daronet drew his comparison between the years 1842 and 1845,
tine ehue4led et this epormehe *Tease in the trade now as
compared with 1842. Why, his own measure, the first great
repletion vehicle he had introduced in 1842, had thrown the
whole state of trade into stagnation. In 1842 the ships ern-
pleyed in the British American trade were 165, and the ton.
nage 91,179; but if they looked to the year before that, they
gelid find that. instead of 165 ships, e ith a tonnage of 91,17 p,
tlicre ere 31qehips, with a tounake ) The
Right Hon. 'llartirtel,lewevei, did not antideseend to notice a
rigried when the Whig.s wets in office. Agaig, let them leek
1.4 a; fie ae -the Of 104; and they wealid find that there
were only two ingle years that the tonnage was so low as the
Right Hun. Baronet had described it ; but he would take—and
he trusted the House and the country would think it fairer—
he would talte the averages of the;wile yi.44s Bloc's, the
oi eutiii; anti compare the progress
of the trade with any annual period before that time. He
found that the average increase on the last period of three years,
as compared with the previous three yeare of 18% we; :2fipgr
Cent. op Ntifth tlaegican eiroher. Mit whop he cempered
'years 1830, 1840;' end I'B4l', with Vile yea;rs 1 n , 1832, aed
1813, wideh were the first three years io which 'they lied ally
regerd, he fetind thgt terinerre4 in the three first years was
66 per cent. `So that it appeared that the Canadian trade was
progressing before the alteration of the duty at a rate still
faster than it had progressed since, notwithstanding all the ass
eistenee it had derived from railway. speoulwtion.-4 At
this rooment the Hop. Member far Sin:lol;6d entered the
House ) He was glad to see hie Hop, Friend the Member fur
SOnderlind in }tipplace !.‘if he would bear him
out that the average amount of timber required for
railways was 5,000,000 cubic feet. Ile would now
turn to the Baltic trade, and he found that the
average importation from the Baltic in the years, 1831, 1432,
end 1683 Tsai 21,1f14 ten while iwthe three years iromed4tely
preceding the red4ctior; of the digerential untie', the average
tonnage of ships laden wit fclaltic timber had fallen as low as
1404.2 tops. Baltic timber, therefore, had fallen as low as
one-third as (tampered with Canadian timber, which had in-
creased to 66 per cent. But now, how had they fared since the
reduetion of the ditty) The average of 14,442 terns had risen
in 1845 to 33,792 tons. So that, while under the syetern of
colonial protection they had fallen off, ender the ohenged duties
they had inereavd veil nearly to treble their former amount.
He thought then that he had shown good cause why the
Canadian colonists had reason to be alarmed at the measures of
the Government. He feared they were alarmed.—():Tear,
hear.) ''hp Capadlan mail, eeceived two days ago,
was filled with intelligence that in the Canadian calonies
great diseethfaction prevailed, and that the colonists were al-
ready discuming whether it would not be bet ter for them to be
annexed to the United States of America. The Hon. Member
for Liskeard shook his head, but that was the information re-
ceived from Canada, They said that if this Government with-
drew its protection; if they who, only four years ago, offered
them the boon of the Canadian Corn Bill, if they were now to
deprive them of that, as they were depriving the farmers of
their own country of protection—( Great cheering from the pto-
tectionists)—all the ties that connected them with England
would be severed. His Hon. Friend doohted the statement
he had ;pulp, bet let hire reed the leading article in the Mon-
treat Gazette of the '25.1i February last. The writer,
referring to the measure brought in by the Noble Lord,
the Member for London, fifteen years ago, far the abolition of
the pocket boroughs, said that an Honourable Member in that
House (and he (Lord G. Bentinck) remembered that that
Ilember was old John Abel Smith), sgid that the temerity of
the measure quite took his breath away. But that measure
was far more rash than the ono introduced by the Noble Lord,
and would take away the breath of the Canadians in
a much greater degree. The writer went on to say,
that the majority yet remained in breathless astonishment;
amazement, consternation and alarm had seized them—not the
less so that they were at a distance from the scene of action—and
that in all probability the deed would be consummated before
their remonstrances could be heard. Would the Hon. Members
opposite, after this, taunt them withsinterposing unnecessary
delay to the inning of this measure ? Should they not rather
delay it further, until the remonstrances of their Canadian
brethren could be heard, and for this purpose only was it that
such a determined resistance had been offered by the patriotic
band around him,—(Cheers, and " Oh, eh.") Knowing the
feeling of the Colonists, he trusted the House weuld pause be-
fore hurrying on a measure which would create so much alarm
in the hearts of their Canadian brethren.—( Cheers.) At a
time when America was assuming a warlike aspect ; when Mr.
Quisecey Adams, in language that he could only characterise as
infamous and blasphemous, quoted the word of God, for lighting
up the firebrand, and letting loose the dogs of war on Oregon,
he did not think that the happiest moment for her Majesty's
Government, by their fiscal changes, to alienate the
affections and loyalty of her Majesty's Canadian subjects.
He, for one, was as anxious as any one that peace should be
maintained with honour. He thought this country could well
afford to repose on her laurels, and need be in no haste to enter
into war. But he must say that he would never consent to
ob'ain peace by a dishonourable sacrifice either of our colonial
or domestic industry. He was as willing as any one, if a doubt
should arise about our rights, that the matter should be re-
ferred to any umpire, he cared not whom ; and rather than
they should wrongfully take anything that did not of right be-
long to them, where a doubt existed, he would willingly con-
cede to the American States. But if all honourable, peaceful
means should fail, they would humbly, but firmly, place their
faith in the all-powerful God of Battles, and they would
address the Americans, not in the language of Scrip-
ture, but in the language of British thunder, from
the broamide of a line-of-battle ship.—( Cheers.) Firm
in the justice of their cause, when 'the last resources of peace
had failed, fearing no human enemies, they would send their
British seamen to America, to speak in a language not to be
misunderstood. His Noble Friend (the Member for (ilonces-
tershire) had correctly stated the number of British seamen
employed in the Baltic trade. Out of 32,000 seamen em-
ployed, only 6,000 were British, and the remaining 26,000
were Prussian, Danish, Norwegian, and Rus ian. From the
register of shipping, he found that in 1620 the British shipping
amounted to 2,648,593 tons. In 1844 it had risen at war time
to 3,637,231 tons, showing an increase of 988,636, or about
Si per cent. But in the meantime the population had in,
creased 39 per cent. He wanted, therefore, to know what
cause there was for boasting of the prosperity of the shipping
interest, when the shipping interest could not keep pace with
the increase in the population. What had been the position of
the foreign trade? In 1832 the foreign shipping was
561,047 tons inwards. In 1842 it had increased to 1,753,745 tons.
From 1820 to 1844 the American shipping had increased from
1,280,062 to 2,280,095 tons. He found by returns that in the
three years succeeding 1842, the foreign trade with this country
had increased by 405,555 tons, while our own British trade had
only increased 212,000, and where the number of foreign
sailors engaged in the trade had increased 1,10.1 the number of
British sailors had only increased 741. Going back to 1769,
when the United States of America was a British colony, and
its population numbered no more than 2,0:0,000. The num-
ber of ships engaged in that trade was 1,078, while the number
of British ships was 28,900. At the present day, and after a lapse
of 76 years, he found that the number of British seamen
engaged in the trade did not exceed 25,000, while the popula-
tion of the States had increased from 2,000,000 to 22,000,000.
He thought these facts were sufficiently conclusive to
show that they ought not to legislate for a colony
without giving that colony an opportunity for expressing
an opinion on the matter—without waiting to hear what has
the opinion of Canada. The Government were now forcing
through a measure which the colonists themselves viewed with
alarm and consternation, and which they thought, after the
Canada Corn Bill was passed, a breach of faith on the part of
this country.—( Hear, hear.) Now, the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Kendal, has stated as a fact what the Hon. Gen-
tleman must have meant for a poetical metaphor—namely,
there was scarcely a Norwegian sailor who did not wear a
medal recording the actions and victories in' which
they had been engaged on behalf of the British
nation. Now, that was the first time he had
ever heard of sailors, who had been engaged in British naval
contests, receiving medals to commemorate the victory over a
foreign foe, and he thought he need not go out of the House
to prove his assertion. His Right Hon. and Learned (and he
might add Gallant) Friend the Attorney-General, he believed,
assisted in accomplishing one of there glorious victories, but he
(Lord G. Benlirick) had never seen any medal or mark of
naval distinction on the part of his Learned Friend ; and he
must say, if medals had been granted to the Norwegian
sailors, his Honourable and Learned Friend had bee.,
greatly ill used bZ the Government.—(Hear, hear.) The
R ght Honourable Baronet at the head of her Majesty's
Government might treat the arguments of his (the Noble Lord's)
party with contempt, and endeavour to cast ridicule upon
those who hoisted the flag of protection, but he for one should
never be ashamed to represent the shipowners of Englasid, nor
should he ever be ashamed to fight under the flag of protection.
Let the Bight Hon. Baronet get up and answer it, but he de-
fied the Right Hon Baronet to answer the figures which he
had put the House in possesion of, therefore he said that they
were not ashamed to fight under the flag of protection,
and they called upon English gentlemen to remember that
what occurred five-and-twenty years ago might again come to
pme. Let them remember that during the thirty years' war,
which Eerope and the world never saw equalled, and when
Euroee was invaded by the soldiery of France—when the lands
of the Nobles of Germany and Russia were laid waste, and
when the inhabitants of Russia preferred committing their
capital of Moscoe to the flames rather than it should fall into
the hands of the enemy—they, the gentlemen of England were
enabled to send them succour and relief, and to defend
their country at home, while their trade, their com-
merce, their industry was protected. Some Honourable
Gentlemen, however, now ',referred relying on the flags of Rue-
sia, the tri-colour of France, or the thirteer stars of America,
but he and his Honourable Friends preferred standing by and
fighting their bahles under the simple, the old, and the time-
worn I. Jack, and he called u son the House still to defend
that weather-beaten flag, and support the amendment of his
Noble Friend.—( Cheers. )
Se. G. CLERK said, that at the late hour of the night it was
not his intention to trespes upon the attention of the House.—
( Hear, hear.) In the tew anervation which he deemed it his
date to make, he should endeavour to confine himself strictly
to the quretion before the House, which he believed was this
—whether they were prepate d to redt cc the price of a raw
material, which was eminently conducive to the comfort of
every individual in this country, 35 per csnt. ? The Noble
Lord who had just sat down, bad stated that he was opposed to
the reduction of the present duties upon foreign timber en three
grounds—one grounl was the revenue, the other the necessity
of protection to the colonies, and the third the maintenance
of the shipping interest. The N.,ble Lord had disputed the
first ground with a very few remarks. The
Honourable Member for Oxfordshire had objected,
in reply to the arguments of his Right Hon. Friend the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, that it was necessary for the pro-
tection of the revenue that no such reduction as from 255. to
15s. per load should be sanctioned? Why, if those were the
arguments of Hon. Members, what became of all the speeches
that had been made with respect to the great injury which
would be done to the Canadian trade, and that of this country,
on the passing of the measures? He thought that they could
not be alarmed, if that were so, at the immense quantity of tim-
ber which they said would destroy and annihila' e the whole of
the shipping arid navigation interests of this country.—(Hear.
hear.) Ile thought that the Canadian timber that would
come into this country under the proposed measures would be
considerably increased, because lie entirely agreed with what