The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON SATURDAY. MORNING, JULY 18, 1846.

stare be promoted to form a narrow gauge link from Gloucestel'
to B istol, and also from Oxford to Basingstoke, or by any
shorter route connecting the propriFed Rugby and Oxtitr-d
line with the South Weitern Railway; without prepr-
d ee, however, to the format ion of any other
line also con: re;invr, upon one unVorm tiule, and by a direct
route, the north of r.n,!l.tud with !he soulivrn coast.
4. That it is the op-pion of this House that it is exiled cot
that the South and Nor,h Wales line, with its liran;d:cs to Mon-
mouth and Hereford, should bo fotrue.l on the broad guage.
5. That it is the opinion ni this House that it is riot expe.
dif nt to alter the provisions of the Acts fur forming a line of
railway from Rugby to Oxford, and fur forming a line of
railway from Oafird to Worcester and ‘Volver'nampton, with
respect to the gauge on which they may be for Med, or with
respect to the powers therein conferred on the Beard of
Trade.

Lord REDE'.',DALE said he did not intend to oppose the
resolutions proposed by the Neble Lord, thoeizli he was not
satisfied pith them. Every one roust feel that if a uniformity
of gauge were established it would be of great service to the
courery.—(Hear, hear.) The narrow gauge was preferable
f r sums lines, hut it was perfectly clear to he Commissioners,
who had been appointed to inquire into this subject, that the
broad gauge hails combination of advantages over the narrow.
--(Hear hear ) For his own part, he eelieved that if a me-
dium gauge had been recommended it would have been met
with very little opposition. there were now 1,50.) miles in
operation ; more than that were already granted, and still
rao-e than that were in the course of being granted in the
present session of Parliement, and more would still be
sought far in the course of the next three years, and he certainly
thought if the Commissioners hal at this most opportune time
approved of a medium gauge, they would have done much to
remedy the evils of the contest between the two gauges. The
resolutions were objeetiorable, irincipally because they con-
templated the existence of two gauges They were powerless
fur good, whilst they would sanetion much evil. lie did not
think that the two gaff es wog bed well together, notwithstand-
ing the oeinions of interested engineers. Mr. Brunel did not
say last session which gauge he was prepared to prefer—pro-
babls he had now arrived at some definite conclusion as to the
merits of the two schemes—at,d yet it was at that very time
that the Commissioners declared that it was perfectly easy to
work the two gauges in conjunction. lie was afraid that the
working of the two gauges together was hable to great acci-
dents; the narrow and the broad gauge carriages goirg at dif-
frrent speeds, would be continually coming into collision.
Although, as he had befere said, be did nut look upon the reso-
lu!ions with great favour, and at that late period of the session
he was not prepared to offer a decided oppositioe, to them, be-
cause they might probably be of s6,aze service to the public.

gilt he n t;st say that there vt as yet suffieient time for the Govern-
ment to inquire into the subjec-, and thus prove to the public
that they meant to come to some (=elusion on this point, and
that they did contemplate favouring an uniformity of gauge.
He hoped that they would do their best to rid this country of
the evil of having two gauge=.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord KINNARD nrefectly concurred in the remarks of the
Noble Lord as to the evil of havirg two gauges, and he would
take the opportunity on some future occasion of moving for the
appointment of a Commission to take into consicfcre.tion the
whole of the subject., and.the great desirableness of establishing
a uniformity of gauge. He contended that the members of
the late Commission had not considered the subject in the spirit
intended by those whe had supported their appointment. He
was glad to Sod that he would be supported in his motion for
such a Commission as he had alluded to. He had been informed
on good authority that had a uniformity of gauge been insisted
on this session the expenditure consequent on the alteration of
the gauges on the part of the different railways in the kingdom,
which would have recognised it, would only have been 800,030/.
He objected, therefore, strongly to the resolutions.
The Earl of GALLOWAY thought the country was in-
debted to the Noble Lord who introduced these resolutions. He
thou; ht there should be a resolution to suspend any further
railway business till the question of the comparative merits of
the different gauges should be settled.
The Earl of WARWICK thought it highly objectionable
that any line should be laid down with both gauges, similar to
the proposed line from Oxford to Rugby.
Lord HATHERTON regretted that a subject of so much
importance should be brought forward in so thin a House.
He believed that the inconvenience of the break of gauge had
been purposely aggravated by the narrow gauge party for the
purpo,e of getting up evidence against the broad gauge, and
he believed if both the lines at that place were under the
management of Mr. Brunel, Mr. Saunders, and Mr. Gooch,
instead of Mr. Hudson, he thought there would have been
comparatively little heard of the inconvenience of a break of
gauge. He thought that the broad gauge must be extended
northwards, ler the people of Liverpool and Manchester would
never be content to hear that the people of Exeter could travel
with so much more speed, safety, and convenience than they
could. He did not think there would be any inconveniences
from working a railway on the broad and narrow gauge, and
even if there were, the Board of Trade would have the power to
interfere to prevent the inconvenience.
Tt.e Earl of CLARENDt)N said that the able manner in
which the Noble Lord had expounded his principle!) to-night,
upon this imp .rtant. subject, gave hint some alarm ; he feared
hat he should not have the abilities to fellow in hi; steps, or to
discharge with the same abilities the duties of his office. It
would, however, be his highest wish to emulate the Noble Lord
In the discharge of those duties which devolved upon him as
his successor in the office of the Board of Trade, and whatever
information he might obtain in his office, he would use it to
promote, to the best of his abilities, an uniformity of gauge,
and an efficient settlement of the question.
The resolutions were then agreed to.
Their Lordships then adjourned. •

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 17.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
NEW MEMBERS.

Mr. MacauLAY took the oaths and his seat for the city of
Edinburgh.
Mr. Rica eso took the oaths and his seatfor Richmond; and
Mr. GIBSON Cltatc took the oatna and his scat kr the city
of Edinburgh. _ _ _

Mr. B. -BALDWIN moved that Cameron's Caalbrook
Steam Coal and Swansea and Loughor Railway Bill be read
the third time, notwithstanding, the certificate required by the
resolutions of the House, on the 231 day of August last, to be
deposited in the Private Bill-office has not h.ten deposited
three clear days, such certificate having only been deposited
upon Tuesday, the 14th day of this instant July.—Agreed to.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.

thought the Bill should not be allowed to pass as a matter of
el;urEC. _

Mr. HU TT considered that the right arid privileges of
British subjects shou!d not be. lightly disposed of to persons who
cUd not intend to reside in this country, or render themselves
amenable to 13riti&I los. Passing the present Bill would, in
his opinion, be estab!ishing a dangerous precedent. He
thought the Biii should be referred Le a Select Committee up
stairs.

Sir GEORGE GREY =a!'.l be would support the Bill, and
he con si'.. tea that it 16,s a most ungracious act to refute
tl:e privi:ege (I,•rnanded.
The Bill Iva,. then read a second time.

Several reports were th,n brought up, nnd were considered.
THE FLEETWOOD, PRESTON AN.!) WEST RIDING
JUNG [ION RAILWAY.

The Lords' Amendments to this Bill %sere considered and
agreed to.

BIATHYSEN'S DIVORCE BILL.
This Bil rua{-1 a seeonl time.
PIDIBERTON'S (OR GERAIS) ESTATE BILL.
This 13111 was also rcatt a second 'time.

.....
GUILDFORD, CHICHESTER, AN!) PORTSMOUTH
RAILWAY (No. ).
The Lords' amendments to this Bill were considered and
agreed to.
HEMELL'S CHARITY ESTATE BILL.
This Bill seas read a third time and passed.
NEWRY, WAR RENPOIN T, AND ROSTREVOR
RAILWAY.
This 13i.l was also read a third time and passed.
ANDOVER CANAL NAVIGATION BILL.
The report upon this Bill was considered and agreed to. •
:MORTALITY IN THE ARMY.
Mr. )VILLIAMS presented a petition from Coventry,
stating that the petitioners had heard, w.th very deep regret,
that a cotsiderahle mortaity existed amoig the British troops
quartered in the colonies, and they prayed the House to take
measures that no more troops be sent out until arrangements
had been made for proper quarters for the men.
The petition was ordered to lie upon the table.
OREGON—RATIFICATION OF THE TREATY WITH

T LIE UNITED STATES.
Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, I have to lay upon the
tabl e of an House a copy of the treaty between this country
and the Government of the United States reFpectint, the
Oregon territory, the ratifications of which were exchanged' this
day between in) self and theaecredited agent of the United States.

MILITARY FLOGGING.
Dr. BOWEIING gave notice that Ile wouM, en Monday next,
a,l a question of the Secretary for the Home Department
respecting the alleged death of a private soldier in
the it.h Hussars, stationed at Hounslow. It was reported that
the poor ,nan had died in contequence of a military flogging for
some breach of discipline.
CO:‘l,llo2iS ENCLOSURT. BILL.

Lord CLI VE wished tro know from R the Might Hon. Gentle-
man the Secretary for the Home Department if ho intended
to t,ring forward any measure of this nature during the present

se: on

I;i e G. GREY said that the Commissioners had adopted the
same course this year as they had done in former years, and an
Act had been passed in the month of May, whiets applied to
seven eases of enclosure.- No subsequent report had been
made since by the Commissioners to the Secretary of State, but
from a conversation which he had wish them, he understood
that there were fifteen additional cases. On receivin; a special
report from the Commissioners in reference to these cases,
stating the grounds on which they rested each, it would be his
duty to consider the propriety of bringing in a Bill embracing
them. He had some doubts, however, whether they could con-
sistently with the provisions of the Enclosure Act, introduce a
Bill ; but if on inquiry he should find this to be the case, and if
the Commis,ioners made a special report before the close of the
session, he should consider the propriety of preparing a measure
to carry their recommendation into Effect.
The Earl of LINCOLN said that, as the Right lion.
Gentleman had expressed some doubts whether he could bring
in another Enclosure Bill during the present session, he begged
to inform him that the same difficulty occurred to him when
he held office; and he assured the Right Hon. Baronet that
no difficulty whatever existed, fur there was nothing what-
ever in the Enclosure Act to prevent him from carrying the
recommendation of the Commissioners into effect by the intro-
duction of another Bill during the present session.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

It was then agreed that the House, at its rising, do adjourn
till Monday next.
On the motion for reading the order of the day for going
into Committee of Supply,
After some conNereation between Sir De Lacy Evans, Sir
Howard Douglas, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the
purport of which did not reach the gallery,
EDUCATION AL ES f IMATES.

Mr. EWA ta moved, " That it is expedient that an annual
statement on the state and prospects of education be made by a
responsible Minister of the Crown, on going into Committee
on the education estimates. 2. That it is expedient that the
formation of additional training sehools for schoolmasters be
encouraged. 3 'That it is expedient to encourage the forma-
tion of public libraries, freely open to the public, in large
towns. 4. Teat it is expedient that appointments to the
subordinate ollices of Government be made, as far as possible,
en the principle of open examination of the respective qualiti -
ew ions of the candidates." The Hon. Alember said
that he rose with some reluctance to trouble the
House with this motion, but he thought that it was
one of considerable importance, and one requiring the most
serious attention of the House. He had spoken last year to
the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury, and
requested him, as the first officer of the Crown, to allow a state-
ment of this nature to be made upon going into Committee.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had at once assented to his re-
quest. There were statements made on the army estimates,
on the navy estimates, and he did not see why a statement on
this subject should not be made also. In foreign countries
libraries were generally open to the people, but in the event
of a foreigner coming over here he had no means of obtaining
any entrance there, except under certain troublesome rules.
Such a fact was a disgrace to the country, and one to which he
would cell the attention of the House at some future period.
On the subject of education it was remarkable that this country
was behind every other. It was now ahout tweAy years since
Lord Brougham had first brought this important subject before
Parliament, and some time subsequently a Committee
had been appointed, from which but little had re-
sulted. The maximum of the advantage was that
30,0001. a-year had been appropriated for the purposes of
education, and he now saw that 100,000/. was proposed for this
year. In Switzeraland, with a population of 2,500,000, he
found that there were thirty normal schools, while in the popu-
lous counties of Lancashire and Yorkshire, with a population
of nearly three millions and a half, there were not more than
five normal scho :Is. In France there were thirty normal
schools, all of which had been begun under Napoleon. It had
been carried out in 1833, most efficiently, by M. Guizot. It
was a disgrace to this country, in his estimation, that all the
other countries of Europe had preceded this in their career of
enlightened policy, and he trusted that the deficiencies which
appeared in the reports of the inspectors of education would
not be long before they were supplied. He had observed that
the system followed in Switzerland was one which prevented
that spirit of ambition which was so rife in that country. The
primary schools are extended to all the provinces of France,
and it was so arranged that if the communes could not meet
the expense the difference was paid out of the Treasury.
—( Hear, hear.) He found that they had the state-
ments of the different inspectors from their reports.
He would state that there was a lam_ntable deficiency in the
means of educasion for the poor, and far inferior to the rate
of the United States and Switzerland; in the former of which
it was one in four, and in the latter state it was one in five of the
population who were receiving education. He was one of those
who believed that the compulsory western was not a beneficial
ss stein. He must also call the attention of the House to the
case of the schoolmasters of this country, a body of men who
devoted themselves, with admirable principle to the services
of the country, and whom he should like to see elevated in
their condition before the public. He considered that there
was not a more honourable profession than that of a school-
master.—( Hoar, hear.) It was not estimated by many as it
ought to be, but it was a high anti nonourable profession, and
while he was upon this point he might refer to the celebrated
letter of Monsieur Guizet to the schoolmasters of France, in
which he had stated his feelings upon this subject in such just
and elevated language that he would trespass upon the
patience of the House by reading it.—( Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Member then road a long extract from the letter, which
desired the schoolmasters to remember in their loneliness and
solitude the sacred duty which was committed to them, and
that they then ought to gather hope and strength from their
work. In the various countries ef the Continent the eduea-
tion and moral condition of children, but especially of the
poorer children, was careful], attended to, which he re-
gretted to say was not the case in this count' y. Many teachers
in the schools devoted to the poor, were extremely ignorant
bottti forth,o f
spelling ; and a report by John Watson
e this the case, but that a kind of
s grammarthathat
not and
only
was
" scholastic slang" was prevalent amongst them • and they were
continually committing a gross violation of the commonest
principles of their native tongue,. a; they were in the habit of
saying, " them books," " them houses," "them children," &c.
Of course if there was this ignorance on the part of the
teachers, the scholars entrusted to their care could not be
otherwise than ignorant. He then referred to the pamphlet of
Dr. Hook, and complimented the doctrines it contained with
respect to education. Between five and seven millions a year,
was annually derived from charity for the purpose of support-
ing charity schools, and upwards of 403,0001. annually for the
sup iort of grammar-schools, showing the great interest taken
by the opulent in the education of the lower classes, and that

Cie Government ought to aid those schools by grants. He
then called the attention of the douse to the state of edu-
cation in Scotland, and highly eulogised the system as the
means of educating all, and of creating mon of great eminence.
From the introduction of ehe present system of education into
Scotland, ignorance had been driven from the country, thus
showing that the parochial system was superior to the one pur-
sued in this country. He must say, however, that the system
there required great reform. He thought.that a better system
might be adopted than leaving the appointment of the school-
masters to the heritors entirely. He came now to
the system of education in Ireland. Now he was
happy to say that the system suggested by the
Hon. Member Vyse) and adopted by Lord Stanley,
had been productive of the best results. More than half a
million of children were now receiving the benefit of a good
education. He said Mr. Kay properly drew the attention of
the House to the increase of poor-rates. The amount of
out-dour relief was perfectly astounding. But, he asked,
what they had been doing to remedy the evil.
They certainly had not been wing those means which would
confer dignity of characer, under the influence of which they
would shun crime and contribute to their own support by their
labour, in order to avoid the disgrace of becoming paupers.
Of this he (Mr. Ewart) was certain that Parliament could
introduce a national system
of education, without at all in-
terfering with:the religious opinions of any sect in the country;
and there was this guard besides, that whatever might be
adopted, there would always be, in this free country, an a s-
peal against any abuse to Pariareent. He thought the House
was called on to make such a provision for the use of the lig-
pule, orders in the state. Democracy was prevailing in
the country, aid no doubt would continue ; and, therefore,
for the peace and safety of the country, they were bound to
attend to the education of the people. The Hon. Member
concluded by making the motion of which he had given
notice.
Mr. CHRISTIE rose to second the motion, He said he had
at an early part of the session given notice of a motion for an
inquiry into the state of education at Cambridge and Oxford,
with a view to introducing improvement in the same, and to
the admission of persons of all religious sentiments to the ad-
vantages of those Universities. He did not mean to bring for-
ward that motion during
the present session, he would post-
pone it till next session, when he expected it would receive the
attention of the House. He said they would soon be called on
to give a vote for the professors at these two Universities.
lie had called for a return, with a view to this, of the state of
the lectures and the attendance on them in the Universities,
and he found by that return that they were in a most
deplorable sate. That -return showed that a professor of
chemistry had an attendance of nine for 18.13, four
for 1814, thirteen fur 1845, and sixteen for the
present yeere, . The Professor of Natural Plelosophy, who, he
( Mr. Chilitie) remerubered, used to have a large audience,
had only ten or twelve pupils last year. Thi3 state of things,
he thought, ought not to pass without notice. They would
then be caged on also to pass a vo'e of money to the London
University. He was sorry that that institution was not made
availeble to the utmost extent, for all the advantages which
flowed out of it. Nor was there encouragement given to young
persons in the schools and universities, who might best imulated
in their education by the prospect of obtaining employment in

certain of the lower branches of the public service, made avail-
able to them on the ground of merit.
The SPEAKER then put the question.
Lord SANDON said he did not agree in all the sentiments
which had been cx ressed, but he admitted the general prin-
ciples on which the motion was based. At the same time he
recommended that the subject should be left over in the hands
of the Nobie Lord at the heal of the Government. The great
difficulty was, that in these endowed schools nobody but a
lawyer could manage the funds.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The trusts for educational and other purposes, whie'a were to
be found all over the country, were in the hands of lawyers.
He would not take up the time of the Ilutelmger, but hoped
the Noble Lord would give the subject hi 3 most attentive con-
sideration.

Sir IL INGLIS concurred with the Hon. Gentleman, that
her Majesty's Government might to have a fair and impartial
trial with regard to this great question. He trusted that his
Noble Friend at the Head of the Government would weigh well
every suggestion made to him, before he adopted it. As this
was not the time to go into the question fully, he would reserve
his remarks till a future occasion.
Mr. WARBURTON thought the Government ought not
to lose sight of the last proposition of the Hon. Member for
Dumfries. Let none be presented to places of the Treasury,
or to any of the subordinate offices of Government, unless
theywe'eproperly qualified to fill them. He would be sorr
to awaytake Parliamentary patronage, but let. no Membery
seek to procure a situation in the Customs or Excite for any
individuals unless they were properly qnalitied. By the late
Government the general registry office was to inadequately
managed by the c'erks who were appointed to it, that it wes
for a long lime very inefficient fly the previous Government
also the office of bankruptcy was fired by a number of clerks
whose intolerable incempetency was a matter of notori• ty. The
late Government, he understood, did away with the tests to
ascertain the qualification of clerks for the Treasury, but, in
his opinion, they did not act wisely in doing, so, for lie con-
sidered that their continuance would tend very much to pro-
cure a more eilielent body of in.rsans to fill those situatlons.
Mr. WILLIA3IS hoped the Noble Lord would take the
matter into his early and fullest consideration. in Scotland
the progress of education was most gratifying. The country
looked up to the Noble Lord with the most hopeful feeling,
and he (Mr. Williams) sincerly trusted it would not be disap-
pointed. In France, the vote passed in the Chamber of De-
puties this year was upwards of 700,000/. sterling. He hoped
her Majesty's Government would give the question of educa-
tion their most deliberate and early consideration.
Mr. HUME considered that the moral state of the people
was as important as their physical wants. He saw with regret
that education was of late years more opposed by Dissenters
than by the members of the Church of England. The state
of education in this country rendered them the reproach of
Europe. England had one in eleven educated; Belgium one
in ten ; France one in ten ; Friesland, and other places in
Germany, one in six, on in five, and nee in four ; so that in
this country, as compared with some of the states of Germany
there WAS twice as much ignorance.—( Cries of Hear, hear.")
England also was the only place where children of differ-
ent religions were not allowed to attend the same school.

If they were at all in doubt how that united system operated
he sl-ould say to them that they should be cautious how they
proceeded, hut they had the example of Ireland, and witl) that
example all doubt as to the result was removed. Tie Irish
system had been successful in Liverpool, and it was also
attended with complete success in flolia.nd, where children
of all creeds were educated together. If, instead of expending
large sums in the maintenance of criminals, they were to apply
it to the education of children, there would not only result a
considerable banear, but even a saving of expenditure. The
time was now come when the Government could attempt to
introduce that means which had been so successful in It eland,
and he had not the smallest doubt that the country would aid
them in their endeavours, and their efforts would be feund of
benefit to all classes.

Mr. J. STEWART admitted the importance of the subject
under consideration. He thought that the education of the
people of this country was one which ought to deeply interest
the Legislature. He did not, however, think that the subject
had at all been fully explained or put f:rward by what had
taken place that evening. Those who brought forward that
motion, seemed to take the opportunity of attacking the Esta-
blished Church. The Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool
had departed from the subject of education, and had spoken of
the administration of justice in the courts of the law. The
Noble Lord had spoken of the difference between a rich man
and a rn-,or man in a court of law, and had stated that the price
of justice in an unoppo.ed case was 701., and for an opposed
case he did not know how much. The Noble Lord should spe-
cify the case which had occurred, and bring it forward for inves-
tigation, in justice to his own character and the character of the
Court in which it was tried. The Court to which he belonged
was very unpopular, and it was so because it was exclusively
engaged in investigating those cases where breaches of trust had
existed for a long series of years, and the persons who smarted
under its influence abused it. He said there was no member
of the profeasson to which he belonged would refuse their assist-
ance towards the amendment of the law. It was easy to cry
out about abuses, but much snore difficult to remedy them.
Why, he held in his hand a Bill got up under the patronage
of the society for the amendment of the law, and introduced
into the upper branch of the Legislature—a Bill for facilitating
conveyance of property— which showed what labour was neces-
sary for the amendment of the law. Yet that Bill, he said was
a vast mass of ab urditit s, which, he was sure, no Member of
that Ilimse would take in hand. This only showed the diffi-
culty of the subject of which the Noble Lord had spoken with
such levity.

Mr. HORSMAN thought that no system of education would
ever be successful, which was not accompanied by a system of
close inspection ; and hoped, the Noble Lord would recollect
the remark of the late Minister, that no vote would be asked
on the subject of education, without a statement concerning
the state of it in this country.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he would confine himself to
a very few observations, as any lengthened statement at pre-
sent would rather impede than further the progress of the ques-
tion. The statement of the late first Minister of the Crown, in
reference to the vote on education, had been referred to by the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. Such a statement,
he thought, would be the means of furthering education, and it I
was, besides, due to the House, so as to enable the House to i
comprehend the real state cf the country in that respect, and
take such measures as would further their views. He owued,
however, in reference to what had fallen from Hon. Members,
that he did not think the same facilities were to be found in this
country which existed in foreign countries for the establishing
of a national system of education, One great impediment to it
consisted in the voluntary efforts which had been •made for
conventional purposes.—(Hear, hear.) Laws might be
promulgated in Russia, because there they had the
power to make them absolute ; and those who sat in the Par-
liament of Scotland, in the year 1696, had the full confidence
of that country, agreeing with them in a national religion.
This remark was applicable in some degree to what had been
done in Ireland some years ago, under Lord Grey's adminis-
tration, but in this country the question' was in a very differ-
ent situation. Efforts hed been made on the national system
to supply schools.; the British school society had also established
schools in various districts; various denominations of dissen-
ters, Wesleyan and congregational, had shown the greatest
zeal in the establishment of schools. These bodies had got
their own rules and their own systems which they had
established in the schools they supported. They were proud,
and justly so, of what they had done ; they had admitte d the
light of the Gospel into the cottages of the poor, and had
disseminated instruction in the manufacturing districts. It
was not wonderful, therefore, that in their attempt to introduce
a national system they should meet with opposition ; that such
persons should dislike that which seemed to destroy their own
benevolent labour. He said he stated these things to show
what any Government which interfered on this question would
have to consider. Yet he said, after all that had been done by
benevolent persons in the Church, by Dissenters, and by per-
sons in high stations and in low in this country, for the educa-
tion of the people, it was a lamentable fact that great ignorance
still prevailed; he said it was a lamentable fact, because the
disgrace to this country was light compared with the evil itself.
But it was evident that, in this situation at least, great advan-
tage would follow from the establishment of additional clay-
schools, and in having the condition of the schoelmasters
raised in this country. Perhaps Parliament might fall short
of what it would wish to accomplish, yet it was well
that such as the lion. Memb•r far Dumfries called the
attention of the House to the subject, as he was certain it
would have the effect of conferring additional influence on it.
.t was a matter of great importance to have a measure which
would make large sums in endowed schools more available.—
( Hear, hear.) He could not agree with the scruples of the
Hon. Member for Oxford, who thought that, in a case where
Greek and Latin were to be taught, and no one learned Greek
and Latin, yet Parliament was not to touch the funds because
some ene might rise up who would learn Greek and Latin. He did
not expect the Hon. Member, with all his known reverence
for things established and ancient, could have gone so far. He
(Lord John Russell) assured the House that he would give the
subject his best attention, and that when it came again before
the House, that he weuld make a statement which might show
that he had not altogether failed of his promise.—(llear. )
They did not make a man a better member of society by teach..
ing him to read or to write. They did not make his morals
better by ineructing him in chemistry.—(Hear, hear.) He
called on the existent state of morals in universities to bear
witness to the truth of his assertion.—( Hear, hear.) He
hoped he would never see the task of public education taken
from the worthy hands in which it was at present vested, to
those of a public Minister. The object of education was net
to make good scholars, but good morals. However amiable the
intentions of the Members for Montrose and Dumfries, the ob-
ject of their proposition would be to make men more clever
criminals than they were at present.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN MANNERS said, he could not imagine that
any desire could be manifested to assimulate the education of
this country with France or Prussia. If they observed the
present opinions delivered from the chairs of the French
College they could not fora moment wish for such an assimu-
latioe ; whatever good had been achieved by the educational
system which at present existed, was entirely in connexion
with the church.

Dr. BOWRING considered that the French and Prussian
educational system was much misunderstood, lie was sorry to
say that religious tests had been applied to the candidates
before admission into schools, and he would regret it extremely
if there should be an attempt to meddle with the liberty of the
subject under the pretence of introducing a national system of
education.

Mr. ESTCOURT joined completely in the opinion which
had been expressed, that education without reference to
morals would be in itself a bad and dangerous system, and he
did therefore consider that the duty of education should be
transferred from the hands in which it was at present vested.
After a few words from Mr. E WART in explanation, the
motion was negatived without a division.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The House then went into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. HUME objected to the method in which the sums of
money granted for education was distributed. Poor districts
did not receive the sums of money, whereas rich ones did, and
this was because there were certain qualifications required be-
fore money would be granted.
Sir JOHN PARKER said that the report upon education
. .

would show the distribution of the money.
Alr. lA
of the whole of E
TILLIA 31Sconsiden7dlantldi aatnd l
there should
and that sack
districts agenseretial
inspection
districts as showed an unwillingness to comply with the requi-
site qualifications required by Government, should be com-
pelled to do so by a rate levied upon the inhabitants.
The sum of 100,00V1. was then agreed to for the purposes
members
the
ye y
grantedi,v ou
ol df
of education.
Onsir tßheclißteEmßo.rf
sforsaeitdl a ctahtaitonhoeienlfalnhtrhdoeep,laemandsdo
pa e rumn
ttetdh echmuer
church,
members of
apply
fora
arch portion
n I r
to the National Church, and that a fair proportion cf the
money would be accorded to them. This was a matter of
merejustice,
Mr. HUME said that the fund in Ireland was administered
with great fairness and equity, and there could be no fault
found with it.

After a few words from Mr. P. BORTHWICK,
Lord J. MANNERS rose, he said, simply to second the
appeal of the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford. He
hoped that what he had thrown out would be duly attended to
by the Government. He could not see how they could make
an exclusive grant to the so-called national system of education,
and deny a similar grant to that system of education in connec-
tion with the Irish Church.
Mr. HAMILTON quite agreed with the sentiments which
bad fallen from the previous speakers as to the grant in ques-
tion.

Mr. THYME said the national system was established by
Lord Stanley, and had been found most useful in its working.
Mr. LADQUCHERE mid subjects iu conualou with

Ireland gave him to much consolation as the fact, that the
people of Ireland, under the national system of education, were
enjoying a blessing which many more favoured countries did
not possess. It was destroying prejudice, and gave him the best
hopes as regarded the future. He rose merely to do away with
any impression that the Government were in the least degree
indifferent to the national tystem of education.
Sir R. H. INGLIS merely wisLed to impress on the mind
of the Noble Lord that he ought, in justice to those connected
with the Church of Ireland, to give them a grant for education
in such a mote as.they could receive it.
Mr. HENLEY briefly supported the views of the Hon.
Member for Oxford.

The vote was then agreed to.
The neat item proposed was 5,3 l/., for the me!ropolitan
and provincial schouls of design.
Alter a few observations from Air. Ewart, Lord George
Manners, and Mr. llume,
Dr. 110 WRING thought there should be a more efficient
system of registrat in than at present, and that there ought to
Lie n tribudat to decide regarding the right of designs. Such a
tribunal might be composed of manufacturers and workmen.
Tribunals of this kind were foundof great efficacy in France.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK was opposed to any such tribunals
as hoe named.

Jr. J. HEATHCOTE would like to know what those
tribunals spoken of as being in France were, and what were
the expel sea attending on them, before he supported such an
institution. Something, however, ought to Le done in regard
to the regulation of designs.
Mr. HENLEY said that he was astonished that, after
the extraordinary powers which were granted three or four
years ago to carry out the law about designs, they were com-
pelled, after all their beautiful new systems of legislation, to
resort to the Court of Chancery. Ad their fine French courts
and tribunals would turn out to be mere moonshine.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the item of 2;000/. to support certain professors at Cam-
bridge and Oxford,

Mr. IVILLIAMS briefly objected to the high salaries re-
ceived by the professors for very trifling duties.
Sir R. H. INGLIS defended the vote. The sure was not
one-fourth of what was annually granted to the University of
Landon.— (Ilea!, hear.) The professors at the University of
Glasgow and the College of Belfast were quite as liberally paid
as those at Oxford or Cambridge. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Williams) hail admitted that he had no: very strong ()-
jections to the grant, and he ( Sir R. H. Inglis) therefore
hoped that the House would consent to the grant.—(llear. )
Mr. DICKINSON opposed the grant, and said that the
Universities received quite sufficient for their support from
other sources, than grants from the public treasury.
The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were then agreed to witliout ob-
servation : —.1,50t1. to the University of London, 7,4'301. to the
Scottish. Universities, 3UO'. to the Royal Irish Academy,
30.3. to the Royal Hibernian Academy, t 3,080/. to the Royal
Dublin Society.
On the vote of 2,60:4. to the 11.411 Belfast Academy,
Mr. HUME wished to know why there had been an increase
of 500/. un the grant of last year.
Sir J. GRAHAM explsined the reason of the increase of
the salaries and number 6f the professors. As the greater
portion of the people of the North of Ireland pro!essed the
Presbyterian religion, which was supported by the State, it.
was thought but ILIA that increased means should be given
to the professors to instruct the young men of Ulster in tho-
principles of religion and science.
Lord J. MANNERS would be glad if the Right Hon:
Baronet would inform the Cummitte whether there had
been ary correspondence between the Government and the
synod et • Ulster on the subject of the professors' salaries ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said that there had been such a com-
munication, and it would probably be produced to-morrow, in
pursuance of the motion of the Hon. Member fcr Montrose.

Mr. L A BOUCH ERE thought that the Hon. Member for
Montrose woul I not derive any advantage by postponing this
vote till the production of the correspondence.
Mr. HUME understood that the authorities of the college
had not asked [or the increase, and the Right Hon. Baronet
ought not therefore to have made it, as it was the public
money. The Right Hon. Baronet might give 509'. out of his
own pocket if he pleased, but he had no right to give away the
public money in that manner. The Right Hon. Gentleman
had given no explanation whatever for giving the increase, and
under all the circumstances he would oppose it.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he had stated the grounds why
the increase was made. A deputation had been specially sent
over from the synod of Ulster, consisting of the moderator
and three of the principal Presbyterian clergymen of the north
of Ireland, and it was upon their representations that the in-
crease was made. This, however, was a question of policy and
equity, and it remained fcir the present Government to take
whatever course they pleased on the matter, but he had stated
the circumstances which induced the late. Government to make
the increase on the former allowance.

Mr. WILLIAMS thought that the people of this country
had enough to do with their money, besides giv:ng it away to
parties who had not asked for it. There were other institu-
tions in far greater need of Government assistance, and in the
exercise of their genk•rosity they should rather look to them.
Mr. LABOUCIIERE had considerable difficulty to come to
a decision in the case, as he did not know Wily the eircum-
stances under which it was made. It" might be right to in-
crease the salary of the divinity professors of the institution,•
but he thought sufficient grounds should be shown for that pur-
pose. As the vote, however, had been brought forward by
the late Government; who had examined the matter carefully,
he would not change it; but next year, when the estimates
came on, should he not c3nsider it warranted by the circum-
stances of the ease, he would withhold the increase.
Mr. HENLEY thought that this was one of the fruits of
the grant to Maynooth. He did not mean to give any opinion
on the justice of the case, but he thought it might be in-
structive to know whether the overture came from the Govern-
nent or the increase was applied for by the College. As no
principle, however, was involve•l, he would trot oppose the

grant.
Mr. HUMS said after•what had fallen from the Right Hon.
Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland, he could nut press his
amendment to a division.
BRITISH MUSEUM.

On the sum of 45,4941., for the new building of the British
Museum,

Mr. lIMME asked when it was likely that the alterations
would be completed?
Sir R. INGLIS thought, that the whole of the buildings
would be completed within three years.
The vote was then agreed to.

A vote of 3,3001. was proposed to defray the expenses of the
National Gallery.
Mr P. BORTIIWICK objected to an item in the estimate
of 6001. for the purchase of a portrait of Hans Holbein. The
country should not he called upon to pay for the blunder of a
public officer. He should divide the House upon the question.
Colonel SII3THORP said this was the first time he had en-
tered the House since the late Ministry had resigned, and be
really did not know where he was— ( Laughter)—he could not
make out the position of the parties.—( Laughter.)
With reference to the picture to which the Ho-
nourable Member fur Evesham had alluded, he did
not know who painted it, and he did not care.
—( Renewed laughter.) He for one would be glad to give
his vote to pull down the whole building, and sell the old ma-
terials for what they would fetch. Look at the building, and
see the display of water works outside, with a lot of dead dogs
and dead cats round it—(Laughter)—smelling most offensively,
rendering the water-works at once the laughing-stock to the
people of this country and foreigners, who were allowed to see
them by the kind permission of the Metropolitan Police.—
(Laughter.) He should like to see the vote stopped at once,
and let them have a gallery worthy of the country, and not
such a building as at present existed, tit only for a blackhole for
the confinemen! c.f eonvicts.—(Laughter. )
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER must confess
that the picture was not worth the money, and the purchase of
it at that price was merely a blunder, to which public bodies
were frequently subject.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that both the Right Honourable
Member for Tataworth and himself were trustees of the
National Gallery, and were both responsible, in some measure,
for the blunder whic had been made. The picture was not,
as the Hon. Member for Evesham had stated it to be, a very
bad one. It was certainly a high rice to pay for it; it was
admitted by all that it was not a Holbein, but at the' same
time it was not considered to be a bad one, and the late Go-
vernment thought that they had better come to Parliament
and ask for the money for the purchase, than to take an lion.
Member's advice, and go to law upon the subject. —( Laughter. )
Mr. HENLEY thought that they should not quarrel too
much with the trustees of this institution because they had
been taken in once.

After a few words from Mr. PETER BORTH\VICK, who
said he was sent there to guard the public purse, and he would
not be mealy-mouthed upon this question,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that arrangements had been
made to have the opinion of competent judges on future pur-
chases, which would prevent any such blunders in future.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said he was aware Government
had in hand many new buildings, and he would not at present
propose a new gallery. But in taking into consideration the
improvement of the metropolis, he thought they ought to put
themselves in communication with eminent architects, with the
view to providing something worthy of the country at a future
time.—The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 10,9111., for the general survey of Great Britain
and Ireland having been read, -
Mr. HUME certainly wished to know what had been done
in the last year.
After a few words from Mr. HOPE, the vote was agited,to.l
A vote of 5,01`3'., for scientific objeetp, was, at4o. agreed
A vote of 3,061!., for BotanicalGatileni.lis Ireland, wal
agreed
olvtoo.of:3,0
701.,
to d'efraY.t'fie--,*;
lishment in Prince Edward's Tilinci; was agreed to.
A vote of 4,3101., for a similar purpose la the island of Ber-
muda, was also agreed to.

A cote of 4001:, for the expenses of lighthouses on the Sable
Mantis, was agr.'tl to.

A vote of 11,500 t., for civil esallishments in St. Helena,
was agreed to.
..: . •
A vote of 7,219%, for civil establishments in Western Antra-
hia, was agreed , ~ , .-
Jo. . •
..

A cote of 2,965/., for the charges and expenses of Port Les-
sington, was then proposed.
After a fen' words from Mr. HOPE,

Mr. HUME said that he cordially supported this vote,
and begged to call the attention of the Government
to the advantages of this port as a centre of communication by
the overland route between this country and Australia, and
hoped the Government would take some steps to carry out• that
project.
The vote was agreed to.
A vote of 4.7561. for the charges of the establishments on
the Falkland Island was proposed and agreed to.
A vote of 30,0001., to defray the charges of civil establish-
ments in New Zealand was proposed.
After a few words from Mr. WinntAass and Mr..Horr.,
Mr. HUME said he did not know whether this money was
for military expenses or on account of paper credit issued by
the Government. He wished to know if there was any thing
like a correct stability when a man was appointed Governor,
and whether Governor Fitzroy had arrived, and had rendered
an account. He did not lay any blame to him, for he
believed when he was appointed that he would make a good
governor.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL gave Governor Fitzroy all credit
for having acted on good faith, and with the best intentions,
but he had failed, and had been recalled by the Government
which had appointed him, and he (Lord J. Russell) thought
that enough had been done in the matter.--( Hear, hear. )
After a short discussion on the general policy of General
Fitzroy, the vote was agreed to.

was then voted for the expenses of Heligoland, and
also 18,394/. for the salaries of the governors and deputy-gover-
nors of the West Indian colonies.

On 11,1.53/. being proposed for the expenses of the eccle-
siastical establi.hroents of Canada and British North America,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the item of 3,000/. for mis-
sionaries there ; to what country did they belong ?
Mr. HOPE havin., explained,
Mr. HUME also offered some opposition to the vote.
Mr. WILLIAMS called on the Government to withdraw
this vote altogether.
Mr. DICKENSON briefly supported the vote.
Mr. P. HOWARD said that a very small sum was allowed
to the Catholic Bishop of Newfoundland, the principal portion
of the population being Catholic; he was only allowed 75/. per
annum, whilst the Protestant bishop was allowed 2,000? He
did not mean to advocate a lavish ex ten4iture, but surely this
was a case in which the Government was called upon to act
more liberally to the Catholics of Newfoundland.
The vote was then agreed to,

On 18,000/. being propoed for the expense of the GOTelli.
ment of the Indian department of Canada,
Mr. HUME opposed the vote, but it la as eventual),
agreed to.
12,164/. was then agreed to for the Emigration Board.
On 43,1(.01. being proposed for the saltries of the Stipcn—
dial y Magistrates of the West Indian Colonies.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the sum was far too large, and
that the people did not require these magistrates. Theieople
were living in a state of luxury as compared with the people of
this country, and the crimes were but few. He therefore pro—
tested against the people of this county being taxed to so large
an extent for the purpose of raalutaining an unnecessary esta-
blishment.

The vote was eventually agreed to.
The sum of 45,t300/. was voted to defray the ex,-.enses of Ile
establishment at Hong-Kong.
120,000/. was voted to defray the extraordinary (LstursemerVa
of her Majesty's Ministers abroad.
A vote of tto,ooo/. for the expense of supporting captive
negroes under the provisions of the treaty fur the suppression
of !he slave trade was proposed.
Mr. HUME thought the expenditure alsegether uncalled
for, as all attempts to put down stave trade by this means htd
been ineffectual.

Lord PALMERSTON thought the effect of the operations
under the slave-trade tready had been of great benefit in the
supprefsion of that nefarious trade.
After a few words the vote was agreed to.
The sum of •?'l,BOOl. was voted for the expenses of the Mixrd
Commission.

The sum of 112,600/. was, after a short discussion, agrt ed
to, in order to defray the expenses of the different British Cc n-
suls abroad.

The House then resumed, and the Chairman reported the
resolutions of the House.
REAL PROPERTY CONVEYANCE BILL.

The second reading of this Bill was postponed to a future day.
COMMONS INCLOSURE (No. 2) BILL.
_ _

After a few V% ords from Lord WorsleY, Sir Graham, Sir
a Grey, Colotel Stbthorp, and Mr. B. Eseott, the Bill was
postFongd till Monday next.
ORDNANCE SURVEY BILL.
The report on this Bill was btought up and agreed to.
WESTERN AUSTRALIA BILL.

This Bid was read a third time and passed.
NEW ZEALAND LOAN BILL.

This Bill was also read a third time and pissed.
PRISONS (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. LA BOUCHER E. moved for leave to bring ir. a Bill to
amend an Act for consolidating and amending the laws relating
t4S prisons in Ireland.—Agreed to.