The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-06 00:00:00

GROUP 1).

AXHOLME, GAINSBOROUGII, GOOLE,
YORK, AND NORTH MIDLAND.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition.)
Mr. PACE cross-examined to ascertain how many of the
places were upon the banks of the Trent. There was an endea-
vour to show a discrepancy in the evidence as to the cost of the
carriage of potatoes to the river and the railway, to the
former the charge being 2s. 6d., and to the latter Is. 6d. a
ton, although the latter is the more distant of the two, but
it was explained by the assertion, that in using the railway
there would be a great central conveyance which would
justify the outlay.
Mr. Birkenshawe, the engineer, was called to speak to the
course of the line, which has already been described. The
gross amount of the returns he calculated at 60,2511., which
less 40 per cent. for working expenditure, would give a divi-
dend of 9 per cent. for the shareholders. The ruling gra-
dient was lin 137. In the course of the line no difficulties
would occur, for there would be no tunnels, and the line, for
four miles of its course, ran over a moor. Eighteen public
roads would be crossed on a level, for which :due provision
would be made ; the line would also cross the Ouze, the Don,
and the Dutch River, but the Admiralty had made no objec-
tion, and there was no property at all likely to be injured
by its formation.
Mr. Paget cross• examined, to show the way in which this
line was affected by the London and York line, which this
line will cross on an embankment of seveu feet. An endea-
vour was made to show that there was a greater deviation
than allowed by the standing orders.
Mr. WurrEtwasT, Q.C., objected to this mattnr being
gone into, as there was no allegation in the petition respect-
mg this point.
The Committee decided that by standing order No. 8 they
could not entertain the objection.
Mr. PAGET addressed the Committee on this point, insist-
ing that it was competent for the Committee to go into the
inquiry, inasmuch as it was the practice of the House of
Lords to take the clauses and the preamble of the Bill
together, instead of doing as was done in the Commons,
taking the preamble first and the clauses afterwards.
Here the room was cleared, but when the hour for ad-
j ournment arrived, the Committee had not agreed, and their
decision was therefore deferred till to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
GROUP XVII.

MANCHESTER AND SOUTHAMPTON AND
SOUTH-WESTERN (ROMSEY AND RED-
BRIDGE BRANCH).
The Committee re-assembled this morning at twelve
o'clock.
The first business proceeded with was the case of the Rev.
Mr. Fletcher, a landowner, who opposed the line on the
ground of its being likely to injure his property, called Lee
Park.
Mr. Bickers, agent to Lord Palmerston, and occupying one
of his Lordship's farms in Hampshire, stated he had known
Mr. Fletcher's property for thirty years, and gave evidence
to the effect that the line would injure his " water meadows"
on the banks of the Andover Canal, and consequently
deteriorate his estate. In his cross-examination hestated that
part of the water on the meadows was derived from a stream
which ran by his (witness's) house, and that Mr. Fletcher
had no right to the water from the canal.
Mr. Sergeant WRANGLIAM then proceeded to address the
Committee on behalf of the promoters of the Bill, and in
reply to the evidence and speeches of their opponents. He
commenced by alluding to the case of Mr. Fletcher, in order
to chow that it was one of those cases which, if injury
was done, would be compensated by the company; but
with respect to the whole of the landowners' cases,
The cause of the promoters of the Bill was of too grave and
Important a nature on account of the public interests involved
to be put in juxta-position with them. Those interests were
too serious for him to suppose, even for a moment, that the
committee would be influenced in their decision upon the
preamble of this Bill by any of the causes which had been
suggested by his Learned Friends on the part of the
different petitioners whom they represented. With
respect to one case, the only one which at any time
assumed the appearance of residential interference
....he meant the case of Mr. Everett—he should
by-and •by trouble the Committee with a very few observa-
tions: In the meantime he would pass from these matters
of detail, and proceed to address himself, as shortly as he
could at that prolonged period of their sittings, and at that
advanced period of the session, to the main feature of this
great measure, to which he trusted the Committee would give
their sanction, and, by that sanction give, not merely a
ilirect means of transit between the great manu-
facturing districts of the north, and the rapidly
rising port of Southampton ; but would still more
benefit the community by conferring upon the local
districts tizversed those facilities of conveyance which
up to that moment they were so sadly in want of.
Before he came to deal with the general features of the mea-
sure, let him pause to inquire, or rather lead the Committee '
to ask for themselves, from whom the real and only opposi-
tion emanated which the promoters believed they had to
encounter? Upon what grounds did that opposition rest, and
what pretext had their opponents for putting it forward?
But he would not occupy the time of the Committee by
dealing with the real nature of the opposition of the land-
owners put forward in the one interest or the other, because
he looked to the great object of the measure ; and he would,
therefore, only ask, who were the opponents who appeared
before them in the guise of landowners but the Great
Western and South-Western Railway Companies? But he
apprehended that two powerful railway companies
never came before a Committee of either House
of Parliament to oppose the passing of e measure
with less chance of success, and whose ground of opposition
was so utterly in contradiction of almost their every act, or
the pretext upon which they rested their opposition was so
utterly consistent. He took it that those companies opposed
them on the principle that the introduction of competition,
by ethttstructing a railway through this district, would be likely
to entrench upon the
the interests which belonged to them.
Whateor phrase they might dress their opposition in, he
apprehendo that no one who iAgtl attended to the pro-
ceedings in the Committee, could doubt that that was tho
real and substantial reason which brought them there.
His Learned Friend Austin) put it that it would inter.
fere with the vested interests of the Great Western anti 4opth
Western Railways ' • but he would Inquire to what extent it
Would interfere with either of them. au4 whether or not oa
public grounds it was not fully justified? ISkt Jet him for a
moment beg the Committee to Consider who it iess that
raised this cry—" Don't interfere with us—don't
to raise competition against us—don't touch our vested
interests." This language proceeded from the Great
Western, every line in connexion with 4titcf} they
had promoted before Parliament this session had been in.
distinct contradiction to the principle of non-competition.
Why all the lines they had been promoting north of their
4WD line were distinctly promoted and justified, mad gucess-
fully pressed upon Parliament on the ground of establishing
et competition on their part against the London and Binning-
haw Company. Why their opponents were those who did
not shrink from carrying a ane a railway from I,ondon
$o Birmingham upon the gotta of creating 4

competition with existing railway companies. Were they
fit parties to come there to oppose the construction of a
line between two points like Manchester and Southampton,
because they might incidentally interfere with their traffic
and compete with them for some portion of the trade which
they hoped to carry ? So much for the Great Western so far
as competition was concerned, the principle of which they
had carried further than any other existing company, and
those Bills of which the Committee had heard so much—
the Worcester and. Oxford, and the Rugby and Oxford—
were distinctly promoted and sanctioned on the principle of
competition.
Mr. BROCK LEIUJRST said the Oxford and Birmingham was
prepared to be constructed on the principle of competition.
Mr. Sergeant WRANGHAM said the lines branching north
to Birmingham were urged by the Great Western of the
ground that they would establish, as between the mining
districts and the metropolis, two competing lines in the
hands of two competing companies. And the South-
Western also were not entitled to complain of com-
petition, as they had carried a line from London
to Exeter, in opposition to the Great 'Western itself. But
the Manchester and Southampton was not formed on the
mere principle of competition, but for the grand purpose of
opening up direct communication between the great empo-
rium, Manchester in the north, to Southampton in the south.
That being the state of parties, what was the nature of the
issue in the cause ? He apprehended that the Com-
mittee, although they had been led into a wilder-
ness of investigation, were now in a condition to de-
' cide satisfactorily to themselves whether they bad
judiciously selected that line, which would be of the greatest
public benefit. Then his Learned Friend (Mr. Austin) cast a
number of imputations on the Company, and declared that it
was a" bubble company," and that they were not formed for
the bona fide purpose of executing a line of railway, but
that they were " confederated" together for the pur-
pose of speculating on public credulity, and accu-
mulating fortunes for themselves, by issuing shares on
account of a company not intended to be carried out.
That was a strange imputation, and one which ought
not to rest on the breath of a Committee. There should have
been some evidence adduced in support of these heavy
charges which his Learned Friend had flung at a body of
gentlemen, who did not yield in respect either to his Learned
Friend or to any there. The Committee had before them,
in evidence, what ought to be enough to refute these
charges thus flung at random at the promoters of the line.
They had the prospectus of the company, which contained a
list of its Provisional and Managing Committee. Did they
find there the name of any noted knave, who was likely to
seek, either by legitimate or uulawful means, to obtain some
miserable bounty to himself, but of the credulity of the pub-
lic? He found in the list of names connected with this line
gentlemen who, in point of rank, station, or name, would
yield to none to be found in any similar document.
These remarks were not made in the heat of
an address, when his Learned Friend might have
been excited. Then again there were allegations in petitions
distinctly imputing some heavy charge to this Company, and
he asked, who could lay a petition in itself calumnious before
the Committee, and shrink from supporting these allegations
with one tittle of evidence? Was this a matter which was
to be left alone to the vague suggestions of counsel,
however ingenious, to sustain them before a tribunal
which was to try the measure these gentlemen were
promoting, who were gentlemen of the purest honour and of
the most unstained integrity? He was wholly unjustified
in using such language towards them. What were the
facts? He said the shares were 201. shares, and that this
was in itself a " badge of suspicion," but the Great
Western had opened 201. shares in the Oxford and
Birmingham line, so that what in that room would be called
iniquity would equally apply to that line, as the money
necessary for its construction was proposed to be raised
by 201. shares.—(Laughter.) If this were so, they would go
down to iniquity with Mr. Hill on one side and Mr. Austin
on the other. The Committee were no doubt aware that
shares varied from 1001. to 151. each, and that the tendency
of late had been rather towards diminishing than increasing
shares. The same rate of shares was adopted by the Buck-
ingham Company, under the patronage of the London and
Birmingham, by the Eastern Counties in their extension
shares from Cambridge to York, by the Norfolk Railway, by
the West Riding Union Railway, by the York and North
Midland, and last, though not least, the Trent Valley Rail-
way. He might swell the list, but he would not detain the
Committee further on the subject.
Mr. Bnoci.mauasx said the plan was very convenient, be-
cause 100!. share were divided into five shares.

Mr. Sergeant WRANGITA.III ;Mt on t.:7-say, that his
Learned Friend accused them of only seeking for 5 per cent.
instead of a larger sum, which he stated was the " true test
of bubbles ;" at that period the amount of deposits had not
been increased to 10 per cent., but when they applied to their
shareholders they acceeded, but if they had been a " bubble"
company there would have been no necessity to ask for
another shilling up
.to the present time, besides they-
might have passed through the Commons without calling on
the shareholders for any future deposit. They had called for
and received the full deposits for the passing of the Bill
through Parliament, and therefore, on his own showing,
they stood acqiutted from the charge of being a " bubble
company." Then, with respect to to allowing 41. per cent.
interest before the line is made in the cnpitml paid up, which
his Learned Friend said showed "consummate art"—.
Mr. BROCI(EILUPST said this was common to all Bills last
year.

- Mr. Sergeant WRANGIIAM said it was. In one casein found
that instead of 41. one Company allowed 5/. per cent.,
namely, the Great 'Western themselves, with respect to the
shareholders in the Oxford and Rugby ; but his Learned
Friend did not consider that this was encouraging specula-
tion.—(Laughter.) But if the Great Western had sinned,
the South Western was not blameless, as the shareholders

in the South Western amendment were allowed to partici-
pate in the terrible practice. It was also advantageous to
shareholders, because it enabled them regularly to pay up
their :calls. Then with respect to the statement made
at the affirmation meeting, that the promoters would
not call for more than 41. per cent. per annum,
They must recollect that the shares are 201. each, and that
the adoption of this course would not detract from the public
benefits which the line was intended to confer, and would
enable parties to know what they would have to pay in the
course of a year. This would not put them to any incon-
venience on account of the want of capital, because five or
six months must elapse after the passing of the Bill
before they could obtain possession of the land; be
fore which time they would have snore than a suf

ticiency of capital. Then the tunnel at Cotteswold hills,
2,900 yards in length, would require three years to
construct, but the line to Andover could be made in twelve

..... .....
months, before which time they would have 360,000/. in
hand, which would not be required. By January, 1849, they
would have 1,600,0001. without troubling the Midland Com-
pany for any portion of their 400,0001., out of which, by that
iime, they would have to pay 150,0001., leaving 50,0001. sur-
plus. In this respect there was no blot on their escutcheon.
After referring to the great public advantages which would
accrue to the districts through which the line would pass, and
to Manchester and Southampton, and inconsistencies in the
evidence of Mr. Locke and Mr. Brunel, who each stated
that they had lines "in their heads" to accommodate the
district to the various lines projected, as contrasted with the
opening of the Manchester and Southampton, sixty-five
miles of which, as stated by Mr. Stephenson, would be a sur-
face line ; and in the case of Mr. Everett, whose property
they could not help crossing if the line was to be made at all,
albough they were willing to deviate to the utmost extent, or
' by a tunnel of 60 yards below the surface of the ground, he
called the attention of the Committee to the traffic returns
of twenty-three lines, the average weekly returns of which
were 891., whilst they only put theirs at 421.; thus showing
they did not anticipate more than the London and Brighton.
Mr. BROCKLEHURST suggested that the Manchester and
Southampton should amalgamate with the South-Western
from Romsey to Southampton, and use their terminus.
Mr. Sergeant WRANGHAM considered that this would be
most objectionable, and hoped the Committee would not de-

prive them of a separate terminus at Southampton.
The Committee then adjourned until to-morrow.

TATTERSALL'S-THIS EVENING
Six O'CLOCK.

JULY STARES.
5 to 1 agst Galata filly
5 to 4 on Cossack
LIVERPOOL CUP.
3 to 1 agst Mendicant
10 to 1 agst My Mary
10 to 1 agst Satyr
15 to 1 agst Highwayman
15 to 1 agst Intrepid
12 to 1 agst Telemachus
15 to 1 agst Rowena
GOODWOOD STAKES.
10 to l agst The Hero
10 to 1 agst Camera Obscura
25 to 1 agst Jenny Wren
25 to 1 agst Petitioner,
25 to 1 agst Giantess
25 to 1 agst Orion
25 to 1 agst Jonathan Wild
25 to 1 agst Footstool
30 to 1 agst Bro. to Sir Henry
30 to 1 agst Red Rover
ST. LEGER.
5 to 1 agst Sir Tatton Sykes
5 to I agst Pyrrhus the First
DERBY.

40 to 1 agst Cossack
40 to 1 agst Von Tromp
50 to 1 agst Reiver

MPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

(THIS EVENING.)