The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-12 00:00:00

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL

On the order of the day being read,
Mr. T. DUNCOINIBE moved that the Speaker do
leave the chair, when
. _ _

Sir JAMES GRAHAM observed, that since the sub
ject of friendly societks was last before the House he
had had an opportunity of coriskiering it more in detail,
and was now in a position to bring in a Bill which would
embody the whole of the lion. Gentleman's amendments.
He proposed, in the first place, to classify and specify
all societies, de ejusdent yeheris, which should be in-
cluded in the operation of the Act, underone general head.
He thought it would be of great importance to aeopt the
suggestion thrown out by Chief Justice Tindal. Mr. Tidd Pratt
had, in the case of savings' banks, had the power of arbitra-
tion, and he proposed to give him, under thii Act, the power
of arbitration with regard to friendly societies, with a regular
salary, He also proposed that there should be a record kept
of all such societies as had been enrolled, with a short sum-
mary of the objects for which they were formed. He would,
therefore, suggest that the House should go into Committee
pro .ti'r"l, and he • would also suggest that the Hon. Mem-
ber should postpone the further consideration of the Bill for a
fortnight, in order that these proposed alterations should be
made known.

Mr. DUNCOMBE said that he would not put the House
to the trouble of considering tLo Bill on the present occasion,
but he should accede to the motion of the Right Hon.
Baronet, and allow this Bill to go into Committee pro
.Prina,
and then receive the alterations prnpostd by the Right Hon.
Beronet. It era quite clear, after the statement of the Hon.
Gentlemen, that he must consider the Bill as destroyed Hie
object is introducing the Bill would »ot be in the leeet pre-
vented by the alterations of the Right Hon. Baronet.
The object he had in view in bringing forward this Bill was,
simply to remove all doubt at present existing with regard
to the decision of Justice Wightman, in the Court of Queen's
Bench, and, in point of fact, to extend the operation of the
Bill to all societies not illegal in themselves. He could not
conceive why societies not of an illegal nature should not be
benefited by the Act. Friendly societies were of great
benefit to the industrious classes, and they should be more
encouraged and better brought under the control of the law.
He coulu not conceive that any society of an illegal or im-
proper nature would venture to enrol their rules. He
was very much afraid that the proposition of the Eight
Hon. Baronet would control the operation of the present
Act with regard to the friendly societies now existing. It
would be competent for him (Mr. Duncombe), when the
Bill was again produced, to suggest such amendments as
he should think proper. He considered his Bill as com-
pletely gone ; but lie would certainly do his best to reduce
the alterations proposed. The Legislature intended when it
inserted the words " and for any other purpose not in itself
illegal" that the operation of the Bill should extend to all
accieties of this natcre. He uuderstood that this alteration
was introduced in 1834, by Lord Althorp, expressly for the
purpose of allowing every society not fur a criminal purpose to
enrol itself: The Right Hon Baronet had said that lie should
not object to the Act extending in future to societies to sup
port workmen out of employment. There were such societies
in existence, and unless the Act were made a retrospective
Act, these societies would be destroyed or thrown into con-
siderable confusion. The law would do infinitely batter if
allowed to stand as it now existed, instead of introducing
these alterations and leaving it to the discretion of Mr. Tidd
Pratt as to what societies should be enrolled or not. As to
the question of allowing a salary instead of fees, he left that
to be settled by the Right Hon. Baronet and Mr. Tidd Pratt.
He certainly believed that as a public officer no person
had given greater satisfaction than Mr. Tidd Pratt. He
was in constant communication with the industrious classes,
and seemed to be an universal favourite amongst them. Ile
would conclude by saying once more that he would consent
to the course proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, and should
afterwards take the earliest opportunity of offering such
opinions as he thought necessary.
The House then resolved itself into Committee upon the
Bill. _ _ _

Sir J. GRAHAM Lid, he would take that opportunity to
make one or two remarks on what had fallen from the Hon.
Member. He thought that no other changes than those
proposed in the Bill would be perfectly efficient. At
the present moment, in case of any dispute amongst
the members of friendly societies, they had ne re-
medy but the Court of Chancery ; and in order
to obviate that, he (Sir James Graham) had proposed
that Mr. Tidd Pratt should have the pow,.r of settling any
such dispute by arbitration. The Hon. Member had said
when the last alteration in the Bill was introduced, the object
of it was that all societies not of an illegal nature should be
enrolled. He wished to call the attention of the Hon. Mem-
ber to a most important change which had taken place
recently with respect to friendly societies. The House would
remember that the int( nst of funds in savings' banks
had been reduced to Si. ss. per cent., but on friendly societies'
funds the interest was 31. 16s. per cent. If that were con-
tinued the effect of it would be that all savings' banks would
become friendly societies, to take the benefit of the
increased interest. Under the operation of the Honourable
Gentleman's Bill there could be no doubt that
savings' banks were not illegal societies., but
were associations coming urder the form of mutual assur-
ance societies. It was quite impossible that this state of
affairs could be amended until the whole subject came ander
the ctimideratign of Parliament.

Mr. WAKISY said that it would be better to postpone
the consideration of the Bill until after Easter, for it was
very desirable that this subject should come completely under
the attention of the Legislature. He had, with his Hon.
Colleague, been repeatedly urn, d to bring this subject for-
ward for alteration ; but out of their efforts, and the ruins
of the Bill, had arisen a sort of monster which
would frighten all the parties interested.—(Hear.)
He saw great difficulty in this matter, and he did not per-
ceive where there was any necessity for introducing these
words, and this was the more evident from the circumstance
that, although it was universally acknowledged, that savings'
banks were not political societies, yet they were in this Bill
included precisely in the same category.
Sir J. GRAHAM was not only not opposed to restricting
the usefulness of friendly societies, but anxious by all the
means in his power to promote it, and it was with a view to
that object that he was desirous of introducing these altera-
tions into the Bill, as it was left by the Hon. Member
for Finsbury (Mr. Duncombe). He believed that by this
means they would obtain the advantage of keeping the
savings' banks associations to their proper character,
and all he wished was that they might Obviate the diffi-
culty which would otherwise arise. The Attorney and Soli-
citor General and Mr. Tidd Pratt had all been consulted, and
they had all expressed an opinion that the alterations were
both desirable and requisite. The alterations gave to parties
desirous of avoiding the decision of Mr. Tidd Pratt the op-
portunity of appealing within eight days to the Solicitor-
General ; and this alone, he thought, was a valuable altera-
tion, which ought to recommend itse!f to the House.
Mr. B. HAWES thought that this alteration would be a
valuable improvement of the law, and if the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Duncombe) had not succeeded in obtaining all that he
desired, he had at least this consolation, that he had been the
instrument of effecting a great enlargement of the utility of
friendly societies throughout the kingdom. If he had not
altered the whole of the law, his procee4ing had affected a
great part of it, and the country had to thank him for a
great public improvement, although he might nut have ob-
tained all that he desired.

Sir J. GRAHAM would beg to assure the Hon Gentleman
that the clauses to which he referred had been most carefully
considered, and had been framed so as not to affect the so-
cieties now in existence. Mr. Tidd Pratt had bestowed much
attention upon them, and every desire was felt to divest the
measure of everything that was objectionable in its character.
Mr. IVAKLEY wished to know whether the Bill, as now
amended, had received the approbation of Mr. Tidd Pratt.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM—Most decidedly.
The Bill then went through Committee, and the report
was brought up.
SALMON FISHERIES.
Mr. PAKINGTON rose to move the second reading of
this Bill. In doing so, he would only detain the House a
very few minutes, but was comrelled to trouble them for
that space, because he was aware that the provisions of the
Bill were not known. Such, being the circumstance, he
would beg to state that the principal objects of this Bill are
to consolidate the laws on fisheries, and to regulate the
casting the nets. The Bill will be a very great improve.
ment on the law as it stands; and he should, therefore, at
once move the second reading of the Bill.
Captain HARRIS had no desire to offer any opposition to
the second reading of this Bill, but there were one or two
of its propositions which appeared to him to be impracticable.
One of the provisions was, that no fishing should be made
within two hundred yards of any dam, or within a certain
distance of the banks. Now, upon the Avon, which was a
great salmon fishing river, such a rule would prove most in•
convenient, and he thought that some other might be sub-
stituted for it. His object, however, was not to oppose the
Bill, but merely to draw the attention of the Hon. Gentle-
man to the circumstance.
After a few words from Mr. BUCK, who also declined any
opposition to the Bill, it was read a second time, and or-
dered to be committedotL!he 6th of May. •

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.
Mr. B. ESCOTT moved the second reading of this Bill.
In doing so he said he felt the high honour that had been
done him in selecting him to move the second reading of this
Pill, in place of the lion: Member who was to have done so
(the Hon. Member for l insaleb. This Bill sought to remove
a great deal of legislative rubbish which caused certain re•
strictions on consciences, and was a disgrace to the statute-
book, inasmuch as it imposed penalties for the sake of con-
science upon families of high honour, and who had descended
from a long line of ancestors. He hoped it would not be
said by those who should oppose this Bill, that the Esta-
blished religion in this country should be supported by such
restrictions upon the exercise of the Roman Catholic religion
as this Bill sought to remove. In reference to the Bill which
had been brought in by the Lord Chancellor, he (Mr. Es •
cott) would say it would be much better to take the two Bills
together, and make a good Bill out of them. In the coin-
mon law of the land. there was no penalties or oaths for
non• conformity in religious matters, and he hoped ere long
to see the common law universally restored to this beautiful
and simple principle. With regard to the personal inconve-
by reason of the existence of those
many,thiouse to consider how this matter
the 31st Geo. 111., nor the 10th Geo. IV.,
that Catholics were under to take an
sAnl r
teocen:ntooac,
v.e
iset
deeNi
etvdhiouiteuirl
leeddrabs
necessityi
oatb, as the condition precedent to a person taking out a
license to teach, and which he might, upon religious grounds,
feel obliged to refuse to take. There could not be anything
more annoying than for Bishops of the Catholic Church to
interfere in neuters relating tothe education of Protestants.
as it was equally annoying for Catholic dignitaries
t
statutes shut out Catholics
from many important offices, as he could not in agree-
menttheexistingeducation with his conscience take them. For instance,
oaths
t hisnt
requirederf e re
there could not be a greater hardship than that the
i
office of proctor n the ecclesiastical courts—au office
which had nothing to do with religious faith—
should be debarred Roman Catholics on account of these
penal statutes. He would further refer to a most important
section of the Catholic Church, the Christian Brethren, who
were much affected by the law as it stood at present. These
men were of the most exalted and excellent character, and
had done much for education in Ireland, yet by these penal
statutes they were outlaws, subject at any time to banish-
ment. They had the testimony of M. Guizot as to the
excellent and praiseworthy proceedings of the Christian
Brethren, and yet such was their position under these penal