The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-17 00:00:00

SCOTCH SEQUESTRATIONS.

A. Aitken, Edinburgh, baker, to meet within
Dowell's Rooms, Edinburgh, Aug. 21 and Scpt. 11,
at one.

A. Young. Glasgow, writer, to meet within the
Black Bull Inn, Glasgow, Aug. 23 and Sept. 13, at
two.

J. Couper, Dundee, baker, to meet within the Royal
Hotel, Dundee, Aug. 24 and Sept. 11, at one.
T. Craig, Glasgow, coach proprietor, to meet within
the Globe Hotel, Glasgow, Aug. 22 and Sept. 12,
at one.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, August 16.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.-ITALIAN POLICY.

On the vote of 57,0001., to complete the sum necessary
to defray the salaries and expenses at the office of her.
Majesty's Secretary for Foreign Affairs being proposed,
Mr. DISRAELI rose and spoke as follows:—Mr. Ber-
nal : Sir, whatever may be the justice of some of the
complaints which we have heard from her Majesty's Mi-
nisters, as to the time of this House being occupied with
too much discussion—complaints which I, for one, can-
not admit to be founded in fact—there certainly is one
member of her Majesty's Government who, I think, has
no right whatever to join in these complaints. I think
the Noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Af-
fairs, so far as his department is concerned, cannot for
one moment pretend that any criticism upon the policy
which he has recommended, or any remarks upon the
transactions which have occurred with regard to foreign
subjects have given rise during this momentous session
to any very frequent or very lengthened discussions.
Sir, although this year has witnessed throughout Europe
events more important than probably have occured in
the recollection of the vast majority of the House,
cannot at this moment remember more than two occa-
sions on which the attention of the House of Commons
has been called to anything connected with our external
relations. For one of those occasions I confess I am my-
self responsible, but I think that in that instance I was
warranted in calling the attention of the House of Com-
mons to this circumstance—that an ancient ally had
claimed the fulfilment of a guarantee from England—
(Hear, hear)—and the sympathy expressed by the House,
when I ventured to make the observations I did upon the
position cif England and Denmark, at least showed that
however imperfect my rilvocacy of that subject was, it
was not considered by the House of Commons as being
intrusive.—(Hear, hear.) There was one other in-
stance of our attention being called to a foreign subject,
but I shall be surprised if any Member of her Majesty's
Government can for a moment pretend that the discus-
sion which originated in that instance was an unneces-
sary one. It is in the recollection of every Gentleman
that a very remarkable incident occurred at the capital
of one of her Majesty's allies. A Minister, who might
be styled virtually the representative of the Queen of
England, was expelled the capital of one of her Majesty's
allies.—(Hear, hear.) Surely, Sir, neither the House,
nor our constituents, nor her Majesty's Ministers, can
for a moment maintain that some observations upon an
event so remarkable—an event which I may almost
characterise as unequalled—partook of the nature of
surplusage discussion.—(Hear.) And, Sir, in both
these cases the discussions, as far as the Government
was concerned, were conducted in any other spirit than
that of party acerbity.—(Hear.) Notwithstanding the
important events which have occurred—notwithstanding
the favourable opportunities which have been offered
to the Opposition—opportunities which at another time,
and in another age, would have been very readily seized
—there have only been those two occasions on which
subjects connected with our external relations have been
brought under the consideration of the House; and cer-
tainly, in both these instances, her Majesty's Govern-
ment have no rig'it whatever to complain either of the
spirit in which the observations were made, or the ob-
jects which the discussions were intended to attain.—
(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I feel it to be my duty to call
the attention of the Committee to a branch of our
foreign relations—in itself of the utmost importance—
and also because I think I shall be able to show the
Committee that it is incumbent upon them, as the re-
presentatives of their constituents, to make themselves
acquainted with the exact state of affairs which, in this
• respect, at the present moment exists. The subject to
r which I wish to call the attention of the Committee is
the state of' Italian politics, and our relations at this
' moment with the Italian states. It had, Sir, been my
intention, on looking over the various items brought
before us on the votes for the miscellaneous
estimates, to have called the attention of the Com-
mittee to the subject upon the vote to one of the Minis-
ters of the Crown, namely, the vote to the Lord Privy
Seal.—(Hear, hear.) I thought it was an appropriate
occasion on which to introduce this very interesting sub-
ject, because the Lord. Privy Seal is the individual who
has recently figured in a very conspicuous manner in
the transactions to which I am about to allude, and be-
cause it would be impossible to place the subject fairly
before the consideration of the Committee without ads
verting to the recent exploits of the noble personage in
question.—(Hear, hear.) But on more mature con-
sideration, Sir, it appeared to me that the adoption of
such a course would tend to give to the observations,
which I wish fairly to put before the country, too per.
sonal and invidious a character. The Government are
responsible for all that the Lord Privy Seal did, and it
seemed to me that it would not be an unfair occasion—
on the vote for the maintenance of the Foreign-cffice—
to bring the matter under the consideration of the
House. At the same time, it is totally impossible, how-
ever brief and condensed my observations on the subject
may be—it is totally impossible to forget the operations
of the Lord Privy Seal in Italy.—(Hear, hear.) They
commenced before these important events in which their
interest has been in a great degree absorbed. But all
the transactions in which the Lord Privy Seal was con•
cerned are intimately connected and even involved in
anything which has since happened.—(Hear, hear.) The
Lord Privy Seal—it is in the recollection of the Com-
mittee—went last autumn upon a very peculiar and a
somewhat roving mission; ho went, Sir, I believe, to
teach politics to the country in which Machiavelli
was born.—(A laugh.) It seemed that the princes of
Italy were so ignorant of their own interests that they
required counsel ; and, in fact, that it was necessary to
take a position with respect to those sovereigns which
was not adopted in our communications with other po-
tentates. We had several Ministers Plenipotentiary in
Italy, and some other diplomatic agents of inferior note,
but it was thought necessary to communicate with the
sovereigns of Italy by no less a personage than a member
of the British Cabinet—one who would not wait for in-
structions in order to guide him on an occasion of emer-
gency; but who, himself, should to a certain degree, be
a portion of that original inspiration which is to guide
the conduct of our foreign diplomacy—one perfectly fa-
miliar with the whole scope and scheme of her Majesty's
Ministers on these subjects, and who, therefore, with a
large—l might say illimitable discretion—might prevent
the recurrence of many untoward circumstances in that
country, and lay the foundation of a future state of
acknowledged prosperity in the Italian Peninsula.—
(Hear, hear.) Sir, it is really a curious thing to put be- '
fore the House, in the very roundabout way, the princi-
pal objects of this important and peculiar mission—it is
a curious thing to put before the House its objects, and
to compare with those objects its results.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord Minto had a very important object to
achieve in the north of Italy; there was great
uneasiness in Italy, there was great apprehension
on the part of her Majesty's Ministers that Austria,
for example, actuated by unnecessary fear, should
invade Sardinia; and the first object of Lord
Minto was to induce the Austrians not to invade
Sardinia. Well, Sir, so far as that object went the Noble
Lord was perfectly successful, the only unpleasant
thing which happened having been, that instead of the
Austrians invading Sardinia, the Sardinians invaded
Austria.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Well, Sir, cross-
ing the Appenines—having achieved complete success in
the north of Italy—Lord Minto found himself in the
centre of Italy, engaged in a delicate and peculiar nego-
tiation with a potentate whose name, in deference to my
Hon. Friend near me (Mr. Spooner) I will not mention.
—(A laugh.) It was certainly a considerable object to
solve a difficulty which had perplexed the Cabinets of
England from the days of Elizabeth to the days of Vic-
toria. How to establish a diplomatic communication
with his Holiness was an object worthy of the mission
even of a Cabinet Minister, and involved a question, the
solution of which would necessarily offer very great
claims to the applause and the confidence of his colleagues.
Sir, in this instance, also, Lord Minto appearsto have suc-
ceeded. At the commencement of the session, no less a
personage than the Lord President of the Council, with
breathless haste, informed the House of Lords that he
must immediately introduce a Bill to establish diploma-
tic relations between the Court of St. James's and his
Holiness the Pope. I believe that the usual forms of
the House of Lords were not observed on that occa-
sion. I believe that the Bill was absolutely brought in
without notice, and that the usual lapse of time which
is permitted to occur between the first and second read-
ings was waived, on account of the urgency and the
exigency of the case.—(Hear, hear.) What was the
result ? The Bill did not pursue its course with the
rapidity with which it was at first intimated was abso-
lutely necessary, and for this reason—that at the very
moment when, under the successful management of
the Lord Privy Seal, England had resolved to revive
its diplomatic communications with the Pope, it seemed
that the Pope, as a temporal prince, ceased to exist.—
(Hear, hear.) I suppose, however, that by some of
the last bulletins there is a chance of his Holiness yet •
exercising some doubtful authority, since at the end of
the session, this Bill, which was brought into the House
of Lords with breathless haste in the month of Fe- .

bruary, has, now that August is waning, stolen into a
little legislative life, and will, we are informed, have a
chance of being yet introduced to our notice.—(Hear,
hear.) Observe, Sir, how eminently Lord Minto sus-
ceeded in the north of Italy in preventing the invasion of
Sardinia by Austria; and observe, too, how successful
ho was in the centre of Italy in establishing diplomatic
relations with a potentate who has no longer any diplo-
macy at his command.—(Hear, hear.) There remains,
thee, but a third portion of Italy, the extreme south, in
which the labours, the unparalleled labours, of this
eminent diplomatist could also be employed, and that is
the kingdom of the Two Sicilies. It has been said, Sir,
in a high place—a place of authority—that Lord Minto
was invited by the King of the Two Sicilies to favour him
with his counsel, and to interfere in the management of
his Majesty's dominions. Sir, it is very possible. The Noble
Lord, like other celebrated performers, was ",starring
it" throughout the Italian States—(Hear, hear, and
laughter)—and having been so successful at Milan, and
so distinguished at Rome, there came an invitation that
he should exhibit at Naples.--(Renewed laughter.)
Now the result of his Lordship's performance in the
south of Italy was not less successful than in the north
and in the centre. Called in by the King of the Two
Sicilies to remove some misconceptions which existed
between his two kingdoms, the Noble Lord laboured
hard to support the legislative -union between Naples
and Sicily; and his labours resulted not only in the
severance of their legislative unio:n, but in the repeal of
their political connexion.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
I feel that it would be wrong for me to offer any-
thing but the most friendly criticism on the defunct
career of this most eminent diplomatist. I only
wish to have it understood that the present Go-
vernment are not new hands at conducting diplomatic
interference, and that they .cannot now tell us
that in consequence of important events which had oc-
curred, they were obliged on a sud den, and without that
consideration and experience which are generally de-
manded in those cases—that they .were obliged on a sud-
den to undertake the diplomatic interference in Italy.
They had been trying their hands for a considerable
time before the great revolution occiirred; and the results
have been not mere interesting than successful.—(Hear,
hear.) But now, Sir, I understand that the Noble
Lord the Foreign Secretary—not profiting by what has
already occurred—is about again to open a new cam-
paign in Italy, that he is about to mediate in Italy in
(=junction with another country., and I think it is a
very legitimate subject of inquiry, and that I am per-
farming my duty to my constituents and to this House,
if I take this opportunity of invising the Government
to give us some information as to the objects
and as to the motives of their. policy. The
Noble Lord informed us the other night, and it has
since been announced in every oqtan of public opinion,
that England and France are going to mediate in the
affairs of Northern Italy. Now I think lam but making
legitimate inquiries of the Noble .Lord when I ask him
to inform the Committee—first, what is to be the princi-
ple of this mediation; secondly, what is to be the nature
of this mediation ; and, thirdly, what is the end pro-
posed to be attained by this mediation?—(Hear.) These
appear to me to be three inquiries •which it is our duty to
invite her Majesty's Ministers to. respond to.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, Sir, first with regard to the principle of
mediation. The principle of mediation may be of a
political character; there may be a, desire to prevent the
effusion of blood which has been occasioned by a very
prolonged and hopeless contest ; or there may be a de-
sire to put au end to a state of things which has incon-
venienced the merchants of this country. The interests
of commerce, and those interests of humanity which
enter into all the relations between nations, may prompt
the Noble Lord to interfere in a particular case, and be
may wish on a political principle to mediate. But as re-
gards the north of Italy,there is no effusion of blood to stop,
there are no commercial interests of ours there which
require defence, or which are suffering from any circum-
stances which are occurring there ; so that if the Noble
Lord has to mediate in that country between the Em-
peror of Austria and the King of Sardinia, or between
the Emperor of Austria and the Emperor of Austria's
subjects, why then, Sir, the Noble Lord—mediating on a
political principle—will have a very easy task. The
means are as obvious as the result is clear. The Noble
Lord, mediating on a political principle, will be guided
by the doctrines of the law of nations, and by the stipue
lations of existing treaties. He will take down Vattel,
he will look at the treaties of Paris and Vienna, and
when he finds that the Emperor of Austria is in posses
sion, in peaceable possession, of the dominions which
these treaties secured to him, and when he finds that
the King of Sardinia is also in possession of the do-
minions which those treaties secured to him ; why,
Sir, when he finds that such is the case—when he
finds that, as regards these Powers, there, is no
question of public law which is at all in controversy,
why, then, the Noble Lord may shut his book—his
mediation is annihilated.—(Hear, hear.) He will find
that he has nothing to do, and the House will be in-
formed that the mere offer of his interference has af-
forded a conclusion, satisfactory, no doubt, to Europe,
but which would probably have occurred if the Noble
Lord had never opened his mouth.—(Hear, hear.) But,
Sir, we can hardly conceive that a statesman so able and
experienced as the Noble Lord should announce to the
Parliament of his country that he is going to mediate
in the affairs of Northern Italy, merely that he may af-
terwards announce to us that he has done nothing ; and
' therefore, I apprehend that the Noble Lord, instead of
• mediating on a political priciple, is perhaps going to
mediate on that dangerous principle with which he has
• sometimes played, and which I have ere this had the
honour of calling "the sentimental principle." The senti-
; mental principle in the management of the affairs of fo-
reign nations at the present day recognizes the principle of
nationality. The Noble Lord is going perhaps to mediate
in the affairs of Italy on the sentimental principle of
' nationality.—(A laugh.) Now, I beg the Committee to
remark into what an inextricable difficulty and danger
the encouragement of such a course on the part of the
Noble Lord may lead this country; and that is the rea-
son—that is, one principal reason, why I now bring the
state of Italian affairs before the notice of the Com-
mittee. If it be necessary, on the sentimental principle,
that Lombardy should only be in the possession of the
Lombards, and that the person of an Austrian should
not be tolerated there, on what ground can you justify
the arrangement by which the Austrians are to retain
the whole of Venicia? If the Noble Lord is a disciple
of the principle of nationality—if, on that principle, he
is going to advise the Emperor of Austria to relinquish
his dominions in Lombardy, on what grounds can he
refuse to completely develop the idea by recommending
his Imperial Majesty to relinquish his hold on the
Venetian territory? I want to know how can the
Noble Lord be a preacher of nationality in Lombardy,
when, in the north of Europe he is, as he is bound to do,
defending the interests of Holland and Denmark against
the invasion founded on this very same principle ? I
want to know how the Noble Lord intends to act as far
as the sentimental principle is concerned in case an ap-
plication should be made from a meet powerful and in-
teresting kingdom, which, four months ago, it was pub-
licly announced, did probably intend to call on England
to mediate—l mean Hungary. In the kingdom of Hun-
gary there are four races, the Magyars, the Sclavonians,
the Germans, and the Wahles. Now, I want to know
whether three of these races should quit Hungary, and
leave it to the predominant power of the fourth ? If the
Committee do not take the earliest opportunity—if the
House of Commons do not take the earliest
opportunity of discouraging the sentimental prin-
ciple in settling the affairs of nations, I am
convinced that this country will be involved in a dif.
ficulty which it is impossible to contemplate without
dismay, and that you will be supporting a policy which,
should it be fully developed, will resolve Europe into its
original elements, and not leave any social or political
system in existence in the forms which it now assumes.
And now for the principle of that mediation of which we
hare heard so much, and which has been so ostentatiously
announced—the mediation of England and France in the
affairs of the north of Italy. I wish to know from her
Majesty's Government whether the principle of the me-
diation—whether that political principle is founded on
the law of nations and the stability of treaties, or whe-
ther it is a modern new-fangled principle of nationality,
which will lead to inextricable confusion, and difficulty,
and danger. I want to know what are the means by
which you intend to mediate. Is it to be an armed me-
diation? Because if it is to be an armed mediation, the
Emperor of Austria, being in possession of his estates,
and the King of Sardinia being in possession of his
estates, war at this moment, as I am informed, not being
waged between those sovereigns, that armed mediation
of England and France is an invasion, and, therefore,
you would seem to say that the best way to secure peace
is by commencing war. If it is not an armed mediation,
is it a mediation only of good offices? If that be so, I
leave it to the Committee to decide what prospect we
have of success with our good offices, when we go to the
Emperor of Austria as friends merely, rand as friends
recommend him to relinquish those (dominions which he
has gained by great sacrifices, by the display of great
valour in his troops, and which have been held for three
centuries, and perhaps never with a firmer grasp than at
the present moment. In the first place, then, as regards
the means of mediation, an armed interference is an in-
vasion—is war, and an interference of good offices is a
nullity. So much as to the principle of mediation—so
much as to the means by which !the mediation is to be
carried into effect. Now, then, I ask her Majesty's
Ministers what do they intend to do with Lom-
bardy should their ancient ally, in deference to their
kind offices, relinquish his dominions? Do they mean
to swell the territories of the King of Sardinia with the
possessions of that duchy? Is the return for that noc-
turnal attack which he made upon his neighbours to be
an increase of authority and power? Why, Sir, if the
King of Sardinia had not made war without even the
declaration of war, you would hesitate as to that course.
But when you remember the circumstances of the case
—when you remember that the King of Sardinia made
war without declaring war against Austria, and was at
the very time in friendly confidence and communication
with the Austrian Cabinet—when we know that in con-
sequence of that conduct he is receiving most signal pu-
nishment and discomfiture at this moment, and that he
is only, in deference to the feelings of Europe on the
part of Austria for existing treaties, allowed to remain
in possession of his own capital, I can't imagine that
any Minister not even a Minister at Frankfort
would recommend Austria to relinquish Sar-
dinia. It is a proposition I can't for a mo-
ment imagine that any Minister in any country
will now contemplate. What will be done with Milan?
Will you establish by this mediation that you have an-
nounced, an independent Government? and make the
states in the north of Italy a source of public dis-
quietude contiguous to two powerful military neigh-
bours, perpetually quarrelling and perpetually calling
for foreign interference. What form do you mean to
establish in the announced mediation for these free and
independent, states? Of course it must be republican.
You cannot have a King of Lombardy. It is for the in-
terests of England and of Europe that you should diplo-
matically establish a republic. If a republic, then what
sort would her Majesty's Government recommend?—

I (Laughter.) Is it to be a revolutionary republic or a
Conservative republic—a red republic or a white re-
public—a republic with a red cap, or a republic with a
white feather?—(G rent laughter.) That is a question
upon which, of course, the country will receive some
intimation. These are three points upon which
the Committee ought to require information from
the Government.—(Hear, hear.) The Government, let
me remind the Committee, have announced a media-
tion—a joint mediation of England and France in
the affairs of Northern Italy. I think the Government
are bound to tell us the principles upon which that me-
diation is founded, the means by which that mediation
is to be carried into effect, and the end which it is pro-
posed to attain by that mediation. Now, Sir, there is
an object for this mediation, as I am informed, which
her Majesty's Government will not announce. It is the
secret object of many transactions which is so perplex-
ing to the public eye. The object of the joint mediation
in the affairs of Northern Italy—where there is nobody
to mediate between, and where there is nothing to settle
—the object of the joint mediation is to prevent the in-
vasion of Italy by France. I have no hesitation in say-
ing that the invasion of Northern Italy by France
would be much to bo deprecated ; and if her Ma-
jesty's Government, with all the advantages of the
recent experience of the Lord Privy Seal, can de-
vise a means by which such result can be prevented,
they, no doubt, will have cause to plume themselves
as statesmen.—(Hear.) But the Committee will recol-
lect that France has no right whatever to interfere in
Italy. It would be a violation of every principle of' pub-
lic law, and of every treaty which exists with reference
to the lialian States. I am of opinion, myself, that
France will not invade Italy. Ido not think it would be
for the interest or for the honour of France to do so. I
very much deprecate even an inference as to the contin-
gency so highly disastrous to the world, and most un-
justifiable on the part of France. As regards Italy, as
regards Europe, France has not the colour of a case in
this respect. I wish I could say, with regard to Eng-
land, France was in the same position. I admit I can-
not. I admit that the conduct of our Government in
Italy affords a precedent for France. It does not
justify France in violating the law of nations—it does
uut justify France in violating treaties—it does not
justify France to Italy and Europe, but it does, un-
fortunately, justify France to England. Should the
Noble Lord, for example, put himself in commu-
nication with the representative of that country at
this Court, if he were to make an appeal to the French
Minister on the subject, he might refer to a circumstance
which gives a colour of pretext of precedent to France.
That is our conduct at Naples. Let me remind the
House of the ultimate result of the cordial co-operation
between the Lord Privy Seal and the King of the Two
Sicilies. As far as I can obtain information, it is the
following, namely—the King of the Two Sicilies having
prepared a powerful army to chastise his rebellious sub-
jects, ex.:etly as Austria his done, he finds suddenly, in
the Bay of Naples, an English fleet, and it is announced
to him that his rights as Sovereign of Sicily have
ceased to be acknowledged by the English Govern-
ment. The English Government, it appears, animated
by that principle which governed the motions of the
Earl of Minto—animated by an extreme desire to
consolidate the kingdom of the Two Sicilies, put
an end to all misconception between the subjects of
his Majesty, and were so kind as to approve of the
nomination of an independent sovereign, who was to go-
vern Sicily in violation of the rights of Naples. The
Government—the servants of her Majesty the Queen of
England—commenced with communicating with the re-
bellious subjects of the King of Naples, and finally they
serif, a fleet to prevent the King of the Two Sicilies from
asserting his sovereign rights. France, in possession
of these facts, would have a very good cause to invade
Italy.

Lord PALMERSTON—They are not facts.
Mr. DISRAELI—These are not facts, says the
Noble Lord; but I ask, why are they allowed to be
supposed to be true? It is at all events true, that when
asked for information upon the subject—when asked
whether instructions had been given to our fleet in the
Mediterranean to prevent the Neapolitans invading
Sicily, the Noble Lord refused to give an answer to the
question. The Lord President of the Council, in another
place, refused to give an answer to a similar question;
and these facts were admitted by the chief Minister
in another place, that we did interfere in the affairs of
Sicily as far as thus, indicating to that people the terms
on which Sicily should be independent, the form of go-
vernment they should choose, the manner in which the
choice should be made, and the individual of whom
England would approve as sovereign. The Noble Lord
will not say that those are not facts. The interference
was complete on our part, and what answer should we
have to give to France, if a French invasion of Northern
Italy should take place? lam quite prepared to make
this admission to her Majesty's Government I
do not believe that, injurious as the precedent is,
our conduct with respect to Naples will bo made a
precedent for the invasion of Northern Italy by France.
and for this reason—simple and satisfactory—that I do
not believe there is the slightest wish at this moment on
the part of France to make such an invasion. But still,
Sir, I think it necessary to enter my protest against any
such precedent being made. All the French Government
desire is, to avail themselves of this forced
occasion of giving to Europe and the world
an idea that there is cordial co-operation be-
tween the Cabinet of Paris and the Cabinet of '
St. James's. Now, it may be asked, what is the harm
done by the French Government availing themselves of
this forced occasion? The harm is, that these forced
occasions, these made opportunities, have never, on any
occasion, been used by the Governments of the two
countries but at the expense of the rights of some third
independent Sovereign.—(Hear, hear.) Upon this oe.
casion, Sir, I do not wish that my opinion should be
misapprehended—of an alliance with France, a cordial
understanding with France, or whatever phrase may be
used—that the great events which periodically and gra-
dually occur in the world should be managed by two of
the leading nations, by a wise spirit of concession and
compromise, followed by a cordial co-operation between
the two countries—if you mean by that an alliance with
France, or a cordial understanding with France, of that
principle and that system I shall ever be a feeble but a
warm supporter. It is not a new principle in the
history of this country, although of late years
it has been announced in this House as if it
were some novel discovery in politics. If you take
a general view of modern history, of our country,
and of Europe—l mean that modern history of those
times during which the great events have occurred--
you will find that hostilities with France have been the
exception, and not the rule. For the last two centuries
and a half more than two 'thirds of the time was spent
in a warm and close intimacy between the Government
of this country and that of France. That was the pen'
ciple which was acted upon by the Cabinet of Elizabeth'
who managed the affairs of the world in co-operation
with one of the Most eminent of the Bourbon princes-
It was brought forward as a charge against the polio,'
of the Protector that he was of the same opinion 0
Elizabeth on the subject—l think most unjustly. But,
at any rate, approved of by the sagacity of those meet
and by the wisdom and prudence of Cromwell, surely it
is a policy that cannot be wholly erroneous. I need
scarcely remind the House of the policy of England
on a subsequent occasion, conducted as it was by two
of the most eminent statesmen of the last century-
It is well known that two most eminent men—who
never agreed on any other subject, who were constantrivals
in all things—l mean Lord Bolingbroke and Sir Robert
Walpole—were both supporters of a warm and cordial
alliance with France as the basis of our policy. Lord
Bolingbroke became the victim of the negotiation at
Utrecht; and no sooner was the great Whig party in
power, than Sir R. Walpole commenced the principle;
and for twenty years secured the peace of the world and
the prosperity of England by his cordial understanding
with France and with Cardinal Fleury. The Noble
Lord only the other night told us that the peace of the
world was to be maintained by a co-operation of the
powerful' Governments of Russia, of England, and of
France. Now, I believe that the present Government
of France is a powcrvul Government; but let me remind
the Noble Lord that he has not yet informed Parlia'
ment that he has recognised its existence. But it is a
strong Government, for this simple reason, that they
have transferred the government of Algeria to the
streets of Paris. That Government may be performing
its duty. The great Lord Protector of equality has lately
executed a monster razzia against the fraternal multitude
of Paris. General Cavaignac or his successors may bale
to repeat, probably will have to repeat, those exploits;
but if the Noble Lord enters the plea of a cordial under-
standing with the Government of France, and under
that plea is going to repeat the steps which, unforta'
nately, preceding Governments under similar circuity'
stances have adopted, and which have always ended .1
disappointment and discomfiture, then I trust this Souse
will interfere. A natural alliance and a cordial genera;
understanding on the basis of mutual co-operation an
a
conduct is no doubt a great good; but an understanding
only founded on forced occasions and forced opports:
nities—occasions unfounded, and opportunities devised
in order to show the world that there is co-operation
tween the two Governments—will produce great owe'
and cause the greatest disasters. The Noble L°ll
tried this system in 1830 and 1832, and then be bad
circumstances much more favourable to deal with than at
present. Then we wero in alliance and co-operation
with a Sovereign who, whatever may have been
faults, had, for a period of 17 years, succeeded in bridling
the Jacobin tiger; yet what did the system endillof
It planted the tri-coloured flag upon the walls
Ancona and of Antwerp—it led to interference in Spain'
in Portugal, and in Greece—it troubled our commerce
in the Atlantic and in the Pacific, and was the l';;; i
;
cause of the disturbances which have taken place inborn;
waters of La Plate. Sir, I protest against this tsy
I protest against any mediation in Northern Italy'
where nothing exists to mediate, but merely to • d
that a cordial understanding exists between France sty
England. lam convinced that if the House of td_rat
moue sanctions that policy, you will found distr_sebesd
every quarter and discord in every state—that n"
security of peace, that alliance, that understand.intl34,4l,.
of the alliance between France and England beilgizse
it as you will, that future concert, will lead in.v_nife
in the end to war.—(Hear, hear.) And, Sir, what
you doing this for? You are doing it beca n
have created a bugbear of your own, France,
the impending invasion of Italy by France. -yr"
I France'
repeat
invading
I say
hasit ,
In f nab- by
Italy. Hon. Gentlemen talk of the invasion o
on
nhoasinnteoresrtighatt
tthoisinmvaodmeenlttaly.
happen France as if it wore an incident which might
telegraP-'
any summer day upon an order sent by the to give
What is an invasion of Italy by France? Even
°f
France a chance of success in the present positions
hundred
Italy she must crops the Alps with at least
that. The
thousand men. She must do much more thanner niu'indred
very day that she crossed the Alps with h
less nume-
thousand men she must advance an army
notthere the
rous to the banks of the Rhine to meet
.n a
moment,
all indig-
nantspirit of Germany, forgetting then,
.1
_.`"feurrearl
all its nebulous mysticism of nationality

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.• •
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of a real patriotism, and fierce with the very recollection
of its desecrated heerths. She must meet even more than
that Germany. She must meet Russia, at this moment
not
so Powierful front her armies as from her moderation,
as erls.wildem. and her justice.—(Hear, hear.) And how
4:ratece to send out those armies ? flow is she to
throw herself in immediate hostility with Germany and
with Russia? Why, every secondary power in Europe
'would be prepared, under such circumstances, to meet
stye traditionary outlaw of nations—(Hear, hear)—en-
•t; aged in quarrel without law, justice, or necessity.—
kia ear. hear.) How is France to act in this frantic
manner? What is her position at this moment to enable
her to send out those mighty hosts to conquer the
" whole world in arras?" She has 50,000 men guarding
her metropolis. She has achieved a freedom upon paper,
and it is secured in her streets by her artillery.—(Hear,
hears) She has 50,000 men encamped at Lyons. She
has an paesny
pausib' of occupation in every great city, under the
ie name of " extraordinary garrisons." Where,
he ere those two invading hosts that are to conquer
Italy end Germany, to prevent whose appearance the
'h'se Lord is going to enter into mock mediations, to incur
~rt'.ficial alliances, factitious understandings, and to sacri-
ne es the rights °four allies? Why, Sir, if France increases
l',er army—rather, if France withdraws her domestic
legions—to invade the world, the whole of her town po-
laulation will rise to advocate the interests of that
"` model republic" which, perhaps, her Majesty's Minis-
ters aro going to establish in Milan.—(Laughter.) If
Franco increases her armies she increases her taxes, and
they are already enormous and excessive, and the whole
of her provincial population will march upon Paris, in
order to prevent the continuance of a system which is as
absurd as it is iniquitous. Nor is this all. If France
removes the armies she now possesses, she will have the
whole of her urban population in revolt. If she increases
those armies, the whole of her provincial popula-
tion will rise against the oppression of the Govern-
anent. Torn by domestic factions, with an empty ex-
'chequer, with a paralyzed credit, and a people without
enthusiasm, why are you to suppose that France is
going to conquer the world ?—and why, to prevent that,
are ye as going to sacrifice your allies? Sir, the system
of m ock mediation is the system which this country
°Wet not to encourage. The course which the Noble
Lord has to pursue, if ho wishes to secure the peace of
ttse world, and the greatness of his country, is one
-which I believe the Noble Lord is quite competent to
fulfil, and he has the abilities, the knowledge, and the
.courage which qualify him to do it. It is not an ad.
'herence to the system of policy which he
has pursued
before, and which ended only in mortification to himself,
and in the destruction of his then ally ; for I believe
that the throne of France would never have fallen, had
it not been for those forced occasions of mutual co-ope-
ration which led eventually to mutual distrust and dis-
icomfiture. The Noble Lord, I say, has one course only
before him ; it is a proper one, and the only one which
en English Minister should adopt. Let the Noble Lord
merely tell the world that, under his counsels, England
maintain the principles of national law ; that
England will observe the stipulations of existing treaties;
that she will not authorise by her sanction any outrage
of the •rights of nations ; that she will not counsel any
of her allies to yield their legitimate interests, in order
t° gratify the morbid vanity of an ill-regulated society.
Then the Noble Lord will take a position which will
OM for him the confidence of statesmen, the sympathy
4 sovereigns, and the hope and trust of suffering nations.
/tut if the Noble Lord takes a contrary course—and I
'am moat unwilling to believe he will take that course—
it will be a course, I will not say, fatal to his Govern-
ment, because that will not bo so great a consideration
with the House as it may be in the minds of his imme-
diate supporters—(A laugh)—though I should be un-
willing to see that Government disturbed—but it will be
a course fatal to his reputation and injurious to his
country; and these aro considerations which, I am sure,
Must influence him. Sir, it is useless to attempt to act
in the management of these affairs with the Jacobin
:Party- I call them the Jacobin:party, although I was
.called to account by the Hon. Member for Montrose,
who said that that name had passed away, and he gave
us another name to describe the party, and which has
often been used to describe their system. Sir,
I recognise the same features as of yore—l
observe the same character of system. It has
the name leaven in it, and I therefore use the same
name, It is a system which commences with Ira-
-eraitY, and ends with assassination. It is a system
-which begins by preaching universal charity, and con-
cludes by achieving general spoliation. Sir, I do not
Bare
, who the individual may be, whether it be M. Ledru
or whether it be the person who shakes hands
with X Ledru Rollin.—(Laughter.) I cannot recognise
, r°Ple Of that kind as the French nation, or as those
rersons with whom I would wish my country to be in
alliance and cordial understanding. I, Sir, am persuaded
that if the Noble Lord pursues this system, it is one that
will, very rapidly, make this country of the same opinion
myself. The Noble Lord may even now act in a
manner that will add to his power, and add even to the
greatue ,
se and tne reputation of this country. He may,
a
ithis craven age, assert the principles of public justice
will manner which becomes a British Minister ' • and be
find then that no bandits, whatever maybe their
position, will cross any mountains or invade any towns
hey.
th, ay know that England is prepared to uphold the
' ef public law. For, Sir, in public as much as
tin Private matters, I have seen enough, and I am sure
from every Honourable Gentleman now present must,
ma esty of
bs Personal experience, have seen enough to convince
that in the long run nothing can withstand the
the law, the force of truth, and the inspire-
of honour.—(Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON.—I certainly do not rise to
"IPlain, as the Honourable Gentleman who has
Jest sat down seemed to expect that I should, that
this House has, during the present session of Parlia-
Ibmt) exhibited any undue desire to impede the march
of her Majesty's Ministers in regard to the conduct of
the foreign relations of the country by pressing too
"4,kit_rdlY upon them for disclosures of the course which
"e3' mean to pursue, or calling prematurely for ex-
rianations as to the course which they may have pur-
:awl during the session. I acknowledge, with thank-
en my own part, and on the part of the Go-
:erne:tent, the discreet—l must say the judicious—
ierbearance which this House has Shown in those mat-
,'"--(hear, hear.) Members of this House have,
4„.--autlY no doubt, considered that the public interest is
'
a'eclueutly best consulted by allowing to the Govern-
ment of the day
the free exercise of their own discretion
as to delicate and important transactions with respect
the
forei
the f countries, reserving to themselves hereafter
unction of calling to a strict account, as of right
the': are entitled, and as in duty they are bound to do,
'Jae whose conduct may appear to deserve investiga-
Tn or censure.—(Hear.) I therefore am far from coin-
ig 'linng either of the cuurse which has been pursued
11 former occasions or of the course which on the
fariewsent occasion the Hon. Gentleman has thought fit to
of a' lam perfectly ready to admit, that at the close
"ssien during which events of the utmost im-
portance haveg Europe from one end to the
convulsed
ether • •
a it is a perfectly legitimate exercise of the rights
and r'
legitimate performance of the duties of a Member
of this House to express his opinions as the Hon.
Gentleman has done, at a moment when, probably,
The termination of our labours may not be far distant.
(Rear, hear.) Sir, I think the Hon. Gentleman
was judged rightly in appending the observations which
°..h" made, in regard to the policy of this country
441 respect to Italy, not on the vote pertaining to the
particular office held by my Noble Friend the Lord Privy
al, but to that office which is responsible for the gene-
ral conduct of the foreign relations of the country—the
I:fiee, namely, which I have the honour to fill.—(Hear,
?ear.) The Honourable Gentleman seems to be better
informed, I think, than he chooses to allow the House
to infer from his speech, as to the grounds upon which
the mission of my Noble Friend the Earl of Minto took
Pace. These grounds were, in some degree, those which
ththe Honourable Gentleman has stated. The facts were
ese :—Towards the end of the summer, it is well
known, in consequence of the altered policy of the then
newly-elected head of the Roman Government, prin.
eiples of reform and of administrative and constitu-
tional improvements were spreading fast over the whole
surface of Italy. Difficulties were experienced be-
tween the Governments and the people in regard to
the march Which those events and those improvements
should take. There was no part of Italy in which those
difficuties were more strongly and more urgently felt
than in the city of Rome. A communication was made to me, certainly not (as we understood) publicly, but
from a most authentic source, conveying to her Ma-
jesty's Government the anxious desire of the Govern-
ment of Rome, first that an accredited and official agent
might be sent from this Government to the Government
of Rome for the purpose of aiding that Government in
the difficult and novel task, which was partly imposed
upon itself and partly pressed upon it by the population;
that, in short, we should send them somebody who, re-
Presenting the Government of England, might give
them friendly counsel and advice in matters in which
rre might wish to consult him. It was said that
might be legal difficulties in complying with
that request ; but that if there were such difficulties,
and if those difficulties could not then be removed,
we should be [conferring a great obligation on the Go-
vernment of Rome if some individual could go there
who,
Possessing the entire confidence of her Majesty's
Government, and pointed out by his attainments and ex-
Perienee ace a person informed upon matters of policy,
zejght be referred to upon occasions on which itshould be
wished to consult him ; and that if such a person could
eoMbine with those qualifications considerable diplomatic
experience, the Government of Rome would be delighted
to receive such an individual in his private capacity, and
without any official authority. My Noble Frieud, Lord
Mint
- was at that time upon objects of his own, intend-
g to pass a short time in Italy ; and I thought that I
c,,,eeid not better comply with the request which had been
made—that I could not better fulfil those intentions with
Which the request had been addressed to us, than by ad-
slaieg her Majesty to authorise the Earl of Miuto to
Proceed to Rome in that unofficial capacity, without any
lltploinatic character, but simply as a member of her
Majesty's Government, possessing, as the Hon. Gentle-
;'an hag said, the entire confidence of her Majesty's
everoment acting as the eye, the ear, the mind
l the Government, capable, from his knowledge of
the intentions of the Government, to act upon a
4i'cltien, on any emergency that might present itself. I
tie ought I could not render a better service to those par
by urging my
Ls who might wish for our counsel and assistance than
that • • Noble Friend to proceed, as ho did, upon
4 mission. A similar wish appeared to be enter-
sata,,,o
Dy other Governments of Italy to procure my
t•seele Friend's assistance; he was, therefore, instructed
',? take Turin and Florence on his way to Rome. To the
%(:.itirts of Turin and Florence my Noble Friend carried
eetters, accrediting him upon a special mission, if he found
upon his arrival that it was the wish of those Govern-
Joelets so to receive him; to Rome, of course '-
teed /so official character. The 'Ply-

,-.13 car.
WM? cable Gentle.