The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-21 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY_,EVENTIVq, 21, 1846.

we ought to say to the United States, "we will not admit
your produce until you solve the problem which cow oc -
cusies the attention of the Anti-Slavery Society, of how
einsecipation shall be brought about in the United
States." In fact, far the same reason that they ex-
cluded sugar they ought to shut out American cotton.
The same thing may be said with regard to many other
articles. With regard to copper ore, slave labour is
freely used in the production of that article, and
yet we do not exclude it from our markets.—(Hear.)
Such is your position if you proceed on this exceptionary
rule in regard to the produce of foreign countries. But
you have not been able to keep this ground in your
dealings with these countries. You have not been able to
supply yourselves only from your colonies in which slavery
does not exist, or from countries where free labour alone
exists.—(Hear, hear.) And in increasing your sup-
plies, you have been under the necessity of admitting
sugar irons the countries where slavery, or something
approaching it, does exist, in order to meet the wants
of the markets of this country.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) In your dealings with these countries
you have not be en able to carry out the principle
on which your present law is founded. You have not
been able to inquire what is the peculiar state of society
in Java, or whether it is not a state of slavery, something
at least approaching to it. What the particular state of
society is in Manilla, you have equally failed in in-
quiring into. In obtaining a larger supply of sugar
from the se countries, you have not ventured to act on
those principles of law upon which you have proposed
to act, but you admitted their produce on the faith of
the treaties you had with them ; you have admitted their
produce as: the produce of the most favourned nations,
and in competition with the produce of free
labour.—(Hear, hear.) I say you have admitted the
sugar of these countries, and though the qaantity intro-
duced may not have been great, still you have backed
out of the strict principle which you have laid down.
There can be no doubt of this. But in doing this you have
refused to Spain the advantages which you have given
to other countries. Spain claimed, under the treaty
with her, the right of sending produce to this
country on the footing of the most favoured nations.
You have, in agreement with your principle,
been obliged to refuse, though the act, I am
bound to say, does not redound much to the
honour of a great country like this.—(Hear, hear.)
It was shown by the Spanish Ministers two years ago,
that within the last ten years Spain has claimed the
benefit of the treaty of being admitted on the. footing
of the most favoured nations, but it has been repeatedly
refused.—(llcar, hear.) On this subject I cannot but be
of opinion that although the treaty with that country
might not strictly warrant its produce being admitted on
the most favourable terms, yet that the principle of the
most favoured nation ought to have been applied to it.
The same principle ought to have been applied to the fish-
eries of the twocountriea,at Newfoundland and elsewhere.
If the salt-fish of England, then the salt-fish of Spain
must be refused also; and the same rule must be applied
to the salt-fish of France. The Spanish Minister
said that he acknowledged the principle, but he said
also that these treaties required to be revised by
the different countries. That is the sum and
substance of the conversation between the Ministers
of England and Spain, proving sufficiently that
the opinions of English and Spanish Ministers were
against that state of things. Now, when persons
stand up for a permanency in these duties,
they must endeavour to find excuses for
their opinions. But there are further and more
vital objections against the admission of slave
sugars. They do, to a certain degree, diminish
the price of free-trade sugar even in Great
Britain ; but the resources of commerce
are injured, yet the spirit of commerce is too ener-
getic to be bound by the stipulations on this question.
But what do the merchants do ? They endeavour
to find muskets in other countries ; they search
Europe ; they coast the Mediterranean; they reach
Petersburgh and other places, and in this way
they find markets for their slave-grown produce.
Now, Sir, this affects our markets ; it may be
in a -very inconvenient way, and attended with a good
deal of loss to English commerce ; but still it does away
with the objection so often urged, namely, that no em-
ployment is given by England to the cultivation
of Cuba and Brazilian sugar. I see it sometimes said—
popularly said that this slave-grown sugar
is the produce of tyranny the produce
of crime—that it is so much stolen material,
so much stolen goods, which it is asked
us to consume. This is very well, but what would be
thought of a person who would come with a quantity of
stolen sugar—stolen from an adjoining warehouse—
who would come to a shopkeeper and offer it
for sale. The shopkeeper would say, " Why, these are
stolen goods ; I cannot buy them, but I have a
neighbour who has no scruples. I will direct
you to him, and he will buy ; I can pur-
chase from him again with the. full drawback ;"
and by this proceeding the whole morality of the.
Weir is lost.—(Hear, hear.) I therefore, Sir, for
these several reasons, on which I will not further
dwell, hold that the ground which has been
hitherto taken by the Governments of this
country has not been the correct one—(Hear, hear)—
and that we must in this instance, as in the propositions
of the late government, adopt the principle of re-
moving all restriction, and of admitting the
people of this country to the best and cheap-
est markets ; and, acting on this principle,
we must admit the sugar of foreign countries into the
United Kingdom. But, Sir, while I say that you have
no sufficient grounds any longer to refuse to the people
This country that benefit--( Hear, hear. )--while you ought
not to deny to them the power of obtaining their sugar
at one million and a half, or two millions of money
less than the price that it now pays, there
are other considerations which indeed it would be improper
and imprudent to overlook, and which demonstrate that
such a change cannot take place immediately. It was
very fairly urged by the West India proprietors that the
change from slavery • to freedom was an immense revolu-
tion, in affecting their interests and the market for labour ; the
revolution changed the produce of the growers from 4,000,000 to
:2,600,000 in the course of a very few years ; and that even
your twenty millions of compensation, large and liberal as it
was, has not been a full compensation for the loss
which they have suffered.—( Hear.) They say, moreover,
that having had to reconcile themselves to this great change,
and to employ persuasion where they had formerly used
compulsion—persuasion to entice them away from indolence,
which was natural to a people just made free—and that this
country did not allow them a full admission to the other markets
of the world where they could have obtained free trade. Now
I think • they are somewhat justified in these complaints.
The jealousy of Parliament upon this question was the origin
and cause of the orders in Council which prohibited the or°.
curing any labourers from Africa. Such was the course which
led to the rejection of the complaints made in the House of
Lords of those orders in Council which prohibited the importation
of Hill Coolies from the East Indies into the West Indian colo-
nies. But it was not, however, the less a real grievance to
the proprietors of estates in the West Indies; nor should it be
urged as a claim against the equalisation of these duties with
the sugars of other countries. There were reasons also
connected with the revenue which should not induce
Parliament to sanction an immediate equalisation of the du-
ties. Any sudden change of duty would, no doubt, most
seriously affect the revenue ; but' it would also throw out of
cultivation some of our colonies, and consequently keep the
markets of this country badly supplied for a considerable time ;
and, therefore, in the measure which I intend to propose
to this House, I shall propose a considerable reduction of duty
ititt,atthethtutiaw, until they are equalised. for the present year, and a gradual reduction from year to year
eqViset It
disposed
thoughtred7e
the duties upon- foreign augurs to 23, r
but, considering that proposition, it appears- to"'n;t:
that by a slight increase of the prices of foreign sugar in
this country we' shall entirely lose the benefit of such reduc-
tion both to the consumer and to the grower. The average
price of foreign sugar according to a printed paper laid on
the table of the House, on the motion of my Honourable
Friend the Member for Lambeth, was for brown or yellow
sugar 20s. sd. The average price of West India,
Mauritius, and East India sugar was 22.5. Bd.; these prices are
for the year 1845. 'sow, Sir, suppo,ing the duty is 3f. 4d.,
and the price of Manilla sugar should rise to 9.55., you would
then have the price of sugar to the consumer 4Ss. 4d., and we
should then be exposed to the same results which followed the
policy of the Right Hon. Baronet with reference tot his question.
I, therefore, propose that in the present year, inste.d of the
duties of 635., a prohibitory duty, and a duty of 235. 4d.,
that on all foreign Muscovado sugar there be a duty of 21s. per
e wt. I shall propose, too, that that duty should diminish
n the following manner :
From the sth of July, 1846, to sth of July, 1847 2ls.
1847, to sth of July, 1848 2os.
•••
••• 1848, to sth of July, 1849 18s. 6d.
1849, to sth of July, 1850 l7s.
1850, to sth of July, 1851 lss. 6d.
•••
1851, to sth of July, 1852, that
a duty of l4s.
should apply to all Muscovado sugar five years from the sth
of July, 1847. Now, Sir, I say nothing here of the propriety or
advantage that might be derived from a still further reduction of
14s. per cwt. I do not think that, considering this in operation—
that it is to be continued over five years—considering
also the present state of the revenue, of which
I shall have something to say before I conclude,
and considering the present state of the Government, I
do not think it would be right for us, on any specula-
tion, to ask for any considerable reduction beyond this, an .l
especially when it is borne in mind the reductions which had been
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman last year. Now, I should
say that with respect to the distinction that was made last year
as to clayed sugar, it is quite true that I have shown by
analogy, that that was not overrated with respect to
the sugars to which it was proposed to be ap-
plied. I find with regard, to Harannah sugar, that there
is white, or white elated sugar, of which the price is
more than 4s. I have only to state at present that in the Bill
which I shall have the honour to lay on the table of the
House I propose to keep up the distinction of last
year. I do this on the grounds I have stated. I
have not been able to ascertain all the information
I could have wished on the subject, and therefore, with regard
to that part of the plan which may be affected by subsequent
information, I will not too minutely enter.
Sir R. PEEL—On all clayed sugars?
Lord J. RUSSELL—On all cloyed sugars. There is a
similar reduction, from year to year, on the refined sugar and
on the double refined sugar, and I need hardly, I think, enter
into the details, but at once lay the list on tne table of
the House. The reduction is in similar proportions to
those made on the other pagan. Sir, with respect to

ler also that the revenue is a considerable sufferer by
the mode In which those duties are raised. We con-
sider itmost necessary, for the sake of the public, f,‘r the
sake of the interests most concerned, for the sake of
trade and commerce in this country, to ~ndeavour
this question
at a permanent settlement, and not to expose
s question to discussion and doubt from year to year.
-si
w
ie
a may
hear.) With these motives, however unpre-
paredseem to be, I am now, Sir, about to
state to the Committee the general reasons on
which we have conceived the plan which I am
now about to propose to this House for
the permanent settlement of the question. Sir,
it has been generally acknowledged by all, by the most
intelligent writers for many years, that the sugar duties
have been enormously increased. Mr. M'Culloch, in
his "Dictionary of Commerce," as well as in his
recent work on taxation, states, that the in-
crease in the prices of sugar, supposing foreign
to rise from 21s. to 255., is in the last
three years not less than 3,240,000/. a year.
During these and the following years, by the advance in
the price of sugar, it was rendered unattainable to a
large class of consumers, and, consequently, extremely
limited in the demand. Passing now from what has
happened in former years, I will take notice of the
Plan proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman
the late First Lord of the Treasury, the effects of that
Plan, and the views with which it was introduced.-
(Rear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer at that
Una", in speaking of Java sugar, said that, observing the
heprice at some months to be 225., and at other times at 245.,
would take the average to be 20s. per cwt., which
would give a total consumption of 43,000 or 44,000 cwt.
But in the course of the year a very considerable rise
taking place, and the Gazette prices averaging in the
'ear first weeks of April at 30s. a cwt.,
and in the four last weeks of December at 355. a cwt.,
tne hopes of the Right Hon. Gentleman were to a great
degree disappointed. I will next take the financial
tstatement of the First Lord of the Treasury, who said
a° considered it probable that the redtiction of
the duty would equally increase the consump-
tion, which he estimated from 120,000 to
160,000 tons, giving a return of 2,240,000/.
,T, he Right lion. Gentleman proceeded upon the reduc-
tion of sugars, and reduced the duties to the amount of
lis. per cwt. on the colonial sugar which was more than
sufficient, but by limiting the field of supply, and raising
the duty with reference to other sugars tobe admitted to
"PPly the market, his estimate was widely
different from the truth . With reference to the
other kinds of sugars there is the actual facts of the
ease with reference to sugars from the Ist of January,
1845, to January Ist, 1846. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man calculated upon 160,000 tons of colonial sugar; the
actual consumption was 237,632 tons sugar, clayed or
equal to white clayed. The Right Honourable
Gentleman calculated upon 7,000 tons-the consump-
tion had been 1,107 foreign free-labour sugar ; the
amount estimated was 5,600 tons; the actual consumption
Was 3,809 tons foreign free labour clayed, or equal to
white clayed 180,000 tons, the actual consumption only
54,000 tons. British Plantation Muscovado sugar was
estimated at 2,240,000, the actual consumption was
3,326.904, instead of 1,140,000 clayed sugar ; the
receipts were 18,0001. ; the difference between fo-
reign free labour and Muscovado sugar was 116,700
and 88,000 tons. The total decrease, according
to the estimates, in the revenue received was 481,000/.
That was not the actual decrease, as a large proportion
of this sugar entered before the Right Hon. Baronet
Proposed his plan, for the actual difference is only
341,529/. Now, Sir, I think these accounts are sufficient
t° show that, while the Right Honourable Baronet
acted upon the principle of reducing the duty for the pur-
pose of effecting an increase in the consumption he was per-
fectly right. But it was an absolute failure when he pro •
posed to introduce different classes of sugar at differential
a"
high duties, and it was only there that be failed
to
make up his revenue according to his estimate.-
will now proceed to state what are the general
btllects, as obtained from various sources as to the pro-
-44.4..e supply of sugar for the coming year, taking the
ha°lent from the sth of April, 1846, to the sth of April of
In the estimate which I now hold in my hand, which
it•-4 alder extreme, and by no means likely to be realized,
lielitatated that the quantity of colonial sugar in ware-
Nal a to 40,000 tons ; that statement sets forth the ac •
ok quantity, and is considerably less than the usual
sthaaat. The estimated imports, calculated from the
84),,,.3f April, 1846, to the sth of April, 1847,
lia4-tion, to the West Indies 125,000 tons ; from the
80:Ltills, 50,000 tons ; and from the East Indies,
') tons ; amounting in the whole to 255,000 tons,
:cording to this estimate ; and the most sugar which
2,1131 be expected from other foreign countries would be
"1.'990 tons more, making in the whole 275,000 tons, to
Wofuich 40,000 tons have to be added, giving a total
315,000 tons ; from this 45,000 the usual amount
must be deducted, leaving 270,000 tons. Nov, Sir. I
have here various other returns with respect to the
81PPly of sugar for the period I have mentioned. , which
Appear to me to be no nearer the case than this. One
la a statement put forth by those interested in the
trade of the West Indies, which gives to the West Indies
125,000 tons, the Mauritius 50,000 tons, and the East
Indies 75,000 tons, making altogether 230,000 tons.
There is another statement with respect to refined sugars,
which apportions to the West Indies 115,00 E tons, to
the Mauritius 40,000 tons, and to the East Indies 70,000
tOns, making altogether 225,000 tons. I have another
account, which gives to the West Indies 110,000
,„t°lle, to the Mauritius 45,000 tons, and to the
East Indies, 35,000 tons, making altogether 180,000 tons.
have another from persons engaged in the trade, which
,awakes the whole supply 230,000 tons. Now, Sir, about
40,000 tons may be taken as a fair estimate of the supply
Of sugar for the forthcoming year. I have bad a statement
Prepared of the effect of the Right Honourable
Gentleman's
plans, from January, 1845, to January
It the present year ; but the statement from April to
gives 250,000 tons. I think we cannot say,
According to that statement, supposing the duties
were to be nominally what they were last year,
that there was less than 20,000 tons of increased con-
lar,
llttuption. There was a statement made by the Right
Gentleman at the commencement of this year,
"ell he stated his general plan with regard to the
trade and finances of the country, in which he proposed
that there should be a reduction on free labour sugar
t
„ 19s. 10d. from 235., but that the duty
all foreign sugar should remain the same.
Now Sir, I have an extract from a circular, published at
44Verp
QOl, and which is dated Feb. 2, 1846. It says,
The effect of the alteration in the sugar duties will be a
reduction of 3s. 6d. per cwt. for foreign free-labour sugar.'i
it believe that statement is made by a person of experience
ttl trade, and which Is thoroughly borne out by the fact
oat YOU will be disappointed in obtaining an increase
the revenue proportionate to the increase in
r• e
consumption of sugar ou which a heavy tax
,‘ paid. Now, let it be borne in mind,
that supposing the consumption is 250,000 tons, there
will be a tax upon the people of this country, under
Present circumstances, of 1,500,0001.-(Hear, hear)-
and that is a tax which does not flow into the Ex-
chequer.-(Hear, hear.) I should, therefore, be na-
turally disposed to propose the admission of other
foreign sugars into the markets of this country
to supply the deficiency under which we at present suffer
very materially. But, Sir, we are met by an objection
Which has hitherto prevailed upon this House, contrary
to the system which has prevailed during the last four
or five years, but which has not prevailed here during the
present year, viz., that the people of this country
should not be allowed to buy in the cheapest market.
There is also another principal objection raised ae ainst
the removal of the duties on sugar, and that is,
t that if all sugar was admitted free into this coun-
try
We should be encouraging the slave trade,
outw• that there are other considerations which
/ivhieh all financial and commercial views, viz., those
do,l h are connected with the comfort and welfare of the
or eat large. Sir, in examining that argument which
on°t Propose to do at any length, I will just point
1, what I think to be the weakest part of it.
oat argument fails, because while you refuse admis-
41n to Jour Lome markets of the sugars from foreign
countries,ether you lace no such barrier on the admission of
Productpions-of cottons, tobacco, copper, and
and
4rltAls other things which are produced by slave labour;
therefore, Sir, you do nut actually carry into effrct,
evener pretend to carry into effect, those humane views
whieh Persons who are most opp >sed to the admission
'f. 3Slalre produce consistently maintain. I hold in my
After circular with respect to the sugar duties.
~ pointing out the increase which bad taken place
iu the produce of cotton from 1790 to 1845, the paper
°°ceds to call down the indignation of all moralists
itinst slavery. But the paper omits one important
'lt* It states no reason why the United States should
11:4exeepted from the principle of exclusion.-(Hear,
quer') Now,
nobody can have forgotten the do-
ti :tstatements that were made in this House a short
book by a Right Hon Friend who sits near me,
r
with _ •
spect to slavery and the slave trade.-(Hear,
tear '
leen ') I mean the Right Honourable Gentle-
the ethe Member for Edinburgh. Nobody can deny
iorce
or the „ of the observations which he made,
I:4:_rg:_;tilizstywohriethhe he then stated. We admit a
produce of America, and thus, to a
trade;
extent, hold out an encouragement to the slave
4tt but to preserve our consistency upon this subject,

the various subjects on which the West Indian t for continuing the present duties for one month from the time
body have stated that while they think that any equalisetion in of their expiration, and resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.
the foreign and colonial sugars is unjust to them, and ineon- The resolutions having been put,
sistent with the policy which Parliament has hitherto %suctioned, Mr. GO CLIIU R N said, he agreed with the Noble Lord
and set, supposing it to be done, that there are claims which that this subject was one of the greatest importance in a corn-
they think they are entitled to make, and placing them on per- mercial, political, end moral sive, and he thought he
feet equality as respects the production of other parts. The should best advance a fair discussion of the question
first is, that subject which I have mentioned to the by forbearing to enter into any debate until a
House, the subject of emigration. We find, 1 remember myself, future opportunity. He should, therefore, confine
when I was in the Colonial-office, we so far relaxed the orders himself to asking the Noble Lord one question with respect to
of Council, which have hitherto passed ; and proposed to take a part of his statement, and upon which he did net correctly
the sanction of the Queen in Council, and obtain an order for understand him. The Noble Lord stated that with respect to
permitting negroes to emigrate from Sierra Leone and the the colonial trade he would seek for an Act of Parliament to
West Indian islands. Now, those orders in Council have been empower the several colonies to repeal such portions of the
very much considered by the Government that followed ; discriminating duty at present existing in those colonies
various other relaxations have been made with respect to ether with regard to the produce of foreign countries and
parts of the world ; I believe very considerable indulgence has the colonies. He did not understand whether it was
been adopted by Mr. Gladstone when he was Secretary of the Noble Lord's intention siiil further to give extension to the
State for the Colonial Department. With respect to that sub- colonial trade by promoting an intercourse in the produce of
ject there is only one material alteration which we propose to those colonies with foreign countries, or whether it would be
make. It is that the contracts or agreements which are en- confined to the ships of this country. This was an im-
tered into in Sierra Leone, or the British settlements, or portant point, and he shi uld therefore wish to know the in-
Africa, as to the employment of negroes should hold good in tention of the Noble Lord with respect to it.
the West Indies. We think, upon the whole, that with the Lord J. RUSSELL said, what he proposed to do was to
present knowledge which the West India proprietors have on empower her Majesty to give her assent to those Acts of the
this subject, and with the knowledge of that, which was stated Colonial Governments with respect to the discriminating
by Lord Metcalfe, asinitting, the fact that labourers duties. He did not in any respect propose to alter the naviga-
in Jamaica, and most other Indian islands have tion laws now subsisting. He merely proposed to take the
much more demands on the employed than the power he had mentioned.
employed on the employers, I should say that we might give Lord G. BENTINCK said that he and the friends around
permission for contracts of service to be made for a single year. him, proposed to give their support to the Noble Lord, to the
But with regard to another proposal which is to be made, plan which he had so ably and per. picuously laid loan on the
namely, that they should be allowed to make those contracts on whole, but there were two points on which they could not do so.
the coasts of Africa, where we have not possessions—where the They would not consent to the removal of the protection which
British flag does not wave, we do not think it sufficient that the colonies had hitherto enjoyed. True to the principles
such should be made without some additional conditions. upon which they had acted on former occasions, his friends
Other questions the West India interest has laid considerable around .him were not disposed to consent •to the admission of
stress upon ; for instance, they say rum is not admitted upon slave-grown sugar on the same conditions as the produce of
equal terms with the liquors and spirits of other free labour. They were determined, if possible to secure
states and colonies. We have looked into this, to the East and West Indian colonial proprietors the pro
and we think a reduction in the duty may be tention which they had hitherto enjoyed.—( Hear, hear.)
safely made from Is. 6d. to ls.—( Hear, hear.) There is His Noble Friend had said that, in his opinion, the agricultural
another subject which they complain of. They complain of interest,having lost their protection, it ought to be a consolation to
the differences which exist in the excise duties of Scotland them that they would have an opportunity.ofohtaining their sugar
and Ireland; but we think that to make any alteration in this cheap. Now, he could tell his Noble Friend that it would be no
respect would be attended with a good deal of difficulty. —( Hear. ) consolation to them, that having lost their own protection they
There is another article which they wished to have released would have an opportunity of robbing the East and West India
from the excise restrictions. They ask us to allow molasses interest of their protection.—( Hear, hear.) A statement had
to be used in distilleries free of duty ; but here there are diffi- been made to the House to the effect that there would be agreat
culties in our way, and we cannot at present give them this falling off in the supply of sugar from the colonies, but he
advantage. Now I think it is but fair, while we are applying thought his Noble Friend had understated the quantity
free-trade principles at borne, we ought to extend of sugar that might be expected to be derived fi ona
them to the colonies.—(Hear, hear.) We therefore purpose the East and West Indies for the years 1846-47.
to relax the duties which are imposed on the introduction of His Noble Friend had stated the amount to he expected
timber and provisions into certain of our colonies. —(Hear.) from the Mauritius at no more than 50,000 tons, but from the
In speaking of this subject some years ago; I said that I best information he could collect upon the subject he could say
thought the whole system of the country had gone on in a that 60,000 tons would be the produce of the year. The Noble
vicious circle.—(Hear, hear.) The manufacturers asked for Lord had stated the produce of,the East Indies at no more than
protection, and the colonist and the farmer were not enabled 80,000, but he had every reason to believe that the produce of
to get supplies of manufactured goods from foreign countries, and the year would be 100,000 tons for Bengal alone, exclusive of
were obliged to pay a high price for the home produce. The the sugar that might be expected from Madras, which was
farmer asked for protection, and the manufacturer and the estimated at 60,000 tons.— ( Hear, hear.) On these pounds
colonist were not able to get supplies of provisions elsewhere. he begged to intimate that he and his party were decidedly
The colonist also asked for protection, and, in consequence of opposed to the proposed change, and when his Noble Friend
this the farmer and the manufacturer _ were not moved his resolution it was his intention to propose an amend.

able to receive supplies from them. The whole system
was a bad one, and I then stated that we ought to endeavour
to break the circle.—( Hear, hear.) That has been in a great
measure done since 1 then spoke; and I do not think, unless
the ground of morality and slave labour is to be con-
sidered an argument now, that you can continue to keep
up in favour of the colonies the differential scale of
duties—a'tax which pressed so heavy on the country.—( Hear,
hear.) Ido not think that those parties who, during the pre-
sent session of Parliament, have favoured protection to the
agricultural interests, if they oppose the alteration in these
differential duties, could give a satisfactory account of
it to their constituents.—( Hear, hear.) It might have
been well for them to have dune so, had their plan for pre-
vent ng the abolition of the protection to the landed interest
succeded, but it had not done so; this they could not say,
and therefore it would be better that they should go before their
constituents and say that the time for the abrogation of all
these protection duties had arrived. I believe
that it will not be considered satisfactory for them to say, we
have been unsuccessful in the support of our principle, or the op-
posite opinion has prevailed, yet we will so contend that the co-
lonial produce should still cortinue dear to the farmer, and that
the labourers be employs shall continue to pay a high price for al
the colonial produce he consumes. 1 will beg leave
to refer to another subject, because it has reference
to another year. The Right Honourable Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his statement
lately made to the House, drew a flattering prospect of the
financial condition of the present year, but it was impossible
not to observe that with regard to the future year his
statement was not of so consolatory a description.
The Right Hon. Gentleman's estimate for the next half-year,
is 21,650,000/. ; out of this sum the China money is to be de-
ducted (700,000/.), and the estimate therefore for the expenses
of the United Kingdom, is calculated at 20,950,000/.
The expenditure tha Right Honourable Gentle-
man estimates at 50,873,0001., but if we take
away from that expenditure 200,0001., which
may be considered an expense of a temporary nature, it leaves
an amount of 50,673,0001. But then we must add certain ex.
penses which the Right Hon. Baronet has not added. There
is the Irish constabulary, of which the expenses for the half /ear
is only taken. We must add for this item to next half year's
account 175,0001. ; we must.also add for extraordinary services
283,0001.; for school and medical attendants on poor-law unions
61.5001. ; half-year's expenses for prosecutions in Great Bri-
tain, 60,0001., and for Ireland, 9,0001., making alto-
gether an amount of 62,850,0001. I should, therefore,
state the future permanent expenditure of the country,
according to the Right Honourable Gentleman's esti-
mate, at 51,302,0401., and the permanent income
at 50,950,000, thus leaving a deficiency for the
years 1847,
.INB, of 352,040/. Now when there is a prospect
like that made out for us by the Right Hon. Gentleman, it
seems to us expedik nt that an endeavour shall be
made to obtain an increase of income, at the same time that
no augmentation of burdens shall be placed upon the people.
The plan which I have to propose, supposing that there were
240,000 tons of sugar, for the produce of the West and
East Indies and the Mauritius, would give a return of
three millions three hundred and sixty thousand pounds.
I stated that it might be expected that 20,000 tons of free-
labour sugar might arrive in the course of the present year.
With regard to other sugars no very great supply might
be expected, owing to the examination clause.—( Hear. )
The greater part of the supply of foreign sugar at present in
warehouse has been brought here in American ships, which is
therefore inadmissible in this country by reason of the Naviga-
tion Act. Now, Sir, I should think it very presumptuous
in us, for a mere emergency, to propose an alteration in the
navigation laws ; for I consider any question arising as to them
ought to be matter for grave and serious consideration, that
there might be a permanent change in them, if change be by
auy means required. 'fhe consequence will be, that a small
proportion of sugar will be admissible. I have taken great
pains to inquire, and I find that eight or ten thousand tons at
most of foreign sugar.

Mr. G 0 U 1.131171 N —Warehouse sugar ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Of foreign warehouse sugar
would be admissible by the present change, but I think we
may take the whole of what would be admitted of foreign
sugar at 20,000 tons, 10,000 more for slave• grown sugar,
and 10,000 of other sugar, making in all 40,000 tons,
which at 211. would give 840,0001. I think in this statement
I have taken the foreign sugar at the very lowest estimate ;
but looking on it as a question of revenue, I consider that
it would return 4,200,0001. Now the revenue derived
by the plan of the Right lion, Gentleman was 3,475,000/.
So, therefore, the plan which I propose will give an increase
of 725,C00/., which will turn the account in our
favour, and show a surplus.—( Hear.) I have now
stated generally to the House what is the plan
proposed by her Majesty's Government with reference
to the sugar duties ; and I should add that I louk upon
this plan as one which, so far as the principle is con-
cerned, is to be a permanent settlement of those duties.—
( Hear, hear.) I shall therefore propose, if those duties are
carried into Committee, to found upon them a Bill in which I
shal make the sugar duties permanent, and not leave the ques-
tion to be debated year after year. Much, Sir, as the West
Ind,a interest may feel themselves aggrieved by the change
which takes away this prohibition, I think the settlement
of a question which has been to them a source
of so much anxiety, and which has been so
repeatedly a matter of debate, will be in a great degree a com-
pensation for that change. I do not propose to vary in any
respect that constitutional practice of leaving a large amount
of revenue dependent upon the yearly vote of the House of Com-
mons, and I shall propose, therefore, some other source of re-
venue, which I shall state to the House before these resolutions

went.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. BERKELEY said he should not beprepared to sup-
port the Government unless they made some arrangement for
supplying the colonies with labour. He for one was not averse
to the colonies entering into competition with the foreigner,
but first let them be placed in the position of the foreigner
with regard to the supply of labour.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL made an observation which did
not reach the gallery.
Mr. G. BERKELEY continued—Well then, if the Noble
Lord was prepared to do his best for supplying the colonies with
labour, he should have no difficulty in supporting the proposed
change.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. MOFFATT said he wished, with the permission of the
Committee, to ask the Noble Lord three questions. First,
whether it was his intention to keep up the difference between
Muscovado and clayed sugar. Secondly, whether he intended
to keep up the existing duty on refined sugar ; and thirdly,
whether he intended to make any change in respect of double
refined sugars.—( Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, with
regard to the first question, he thought the distinction ought
not to be kept up, but until he had obtained further informa-
tion on the subject he could not promise a change. With re-
gard to the second question, it was intended to keep up the
duty • but with regard to the third, the same change would be
extended to double refined as was proposed to be applied to
other sugars.---( Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. M. STEWART urged upon the Government the
necessity of doing away with the excise duty on rum altoge-
ther. A duty of Is. would still keep it out of Scotland and
Ireland, and it would depend upon the manner in which the
Noble Lord dealt with this article whether those who were in-
terested in the colonies would go along with him in his change
or not.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BERNAL said he had never been able to learn whether
the law imposed any restrictions on the use of sugar in
breweries ; and he would, therefore, now give notice of his in-
tention to enter upon this subject on some future occasion.
Mr. BERKELEY regretted that the Noble Lord had not
the power to make free trade more palatable to him.
Mr. EW ART would have preferred a more speedy settle-
ment of this question than that proposed by the Noble Lord.
He did not see why any distinction should have been imposed
on the importation of molasses. He hoped to see the time
when the people of this country would be in the enjoyment of
cheap sugar, and cheap food of every kind.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied to
the remarks of Mr. Stewart. He said that the tax on the im-
portation of rum was not imposed merely for the sake of re-
venue; it was imposed principally with the view of admitting
rum and British spirits to be consumed t.n the same terms.
In reply to Mr. HOPE,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the yearly contracts fer
wine, to which he had alluded in his explanation, would be
sanctioned in Asia, Africa, and everywhere else.
Mr. BAILEY regretted that the settlement of this great
question had been delayed until so late a period of the session.
when it was well known that many of the members had left
London.
Mr. HUME would rather see the House sit much longer
than usual than see the settlement of a question of such vast
importance delayed a day longer. He hoped that the proposals
of the Noble Lord would be adopted by the House, but he at
the same time must say that the laws at present existing as to
the uqe of sugar in breweries were most absurd, and he hoped
that the Noble Lord would embody a reform on that sub:eet in
his present comprehensive plan. He entirely approved of the
Noble Lord's intention to abolish, if possible, the anomaly at
present existing as to sanctioning the admission of some slave
and free produce, whilst on that of sugar there were differential
or protective duties, which, as had been truly said, did not
benefit the country. When the question of the sugar duties had
been settled to the satisfaction of the Noble Lord, he (Mr.
Hume) considered that this session might terminate, leaving an
impression on the minds of the House that it was the greatest
session within their memory.
Mr. HENLEY condemned the proposal of the Noble Lords'

plan as a most unjust one, and saidthA if it was carried out we
should have free-trade not only in corn but in everything
else.—( Laughter.)
Mr. RICARDO hoped that the equalisation of the sugar
duties would not be delayed for five years, and if the Noble
Lord persisted in proposing the resolutions as they at present
stood, he should feel it his duty on Friday next to propose a.,
amendment to limit the period of equalisation.
Mr. WAKLEY replied to some remarks that had fallen
from the Nob!e Lord, the member for Lynn (Lord G. Ben-
tinck) as to protection, and contended that the principle of
protection on which that Noble Lord had se eloquently dwelt,
bad led to the most ruinous consequences. He had not for-
gotten the observations which had been made a fe s years since
in that House, upon the introduction of the Hid Coolies into
the West Indies. The House should paus.t before they passed
his measure; a considerable quantity of labourers were to be
introduced into the West Indies, to break down the claims of
those unfortunate beings who were now employed
there. He hoped, therefore, that the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government would recon-
sider this part of his proposition, and protect these
unfortunate labourers from the merciless, cold-blooded specu-
lators who traded in human flesh, and who kidnapped the un-
fortunate Hill Coolies for the purpose of importing them into
the West Indies, in order to beat down the prices of the libe-
rated negroes. The House would not do its duty if they did
not oppose this part of the project.
Sir H. INGLIS said that he must remind the House that
they were not pledged at all to the merits of the measure, but
at a future time they would express their opinions on the
subject,
Sir DE LACY EVANS eontended that the term" un-

are come to on the Bill, which shall be made a yearly income,
and for which the Minister of the Crown shall every year ask
the Parliament. I know some persons will say that by this
plan we are again destroying that principle of protection which
is due to the colonies, and estranging the affections and loyalty
of the people. I consider, Sir, that the time is come, when with
reference to this subject von must adopt an altered policy, and
I think an improved policy. It was the habit of this and
other countries to provide they should have a jealous mono•
poly of the commerce and the productions of the colonies,
and that the colonies should be obliged to take the
exclusive productions and manufactures of the mother
country. I believe no country was more jealous in
this respect than Spain. Spain had a vast colonial em-
pire, and vet at the end of a century and a half
after she had'acquired that empire, we find Sir Robert Wal-
pole stating to this House, upon the question of Spanish trade
with Spanish America and the Spanish West Indies, that the
greater part of the goods sought to be introduced to Europe
would belong not • to Spaniards, but to foreign countries.
Such, Sir, was the result of a rigid and exclusive system,
without the energy and freedom of a commercial empire.
My belief is,
_that if you support the proposition
of the Government, that the colonies will gain, and
not suffer, by this great change in your policy. I believe
that the cultivation of sugar itself will be improved to a great
extent—( Hear, hear)—when the colonists know that they
must compete in the markets of the mother country with the
productions of other countries.—( Cheers.) I believe that they
will derive great energy from being allowed to seek where they
like for the cheapest products of the other countries of the
globe. And, "ir, recollect that you do not part with that
great advantage—that neither in this country should we ever
impose differential duties against the colonies, nor should the co-
lonies impose differential duties as against us. It is a commerce se-
cure in war as well as inpeace a commerce which is not exposed
to the danger of conflicting tariffs, but which is regulated
solely by a view of what is for the benefit of all. The colonists
derive, I think, great advantage in being connected with
this country, having the advantage of all the skill
and the accumulated capital of this company and this empire
has an immense advantage in the loyalty, the power and the
assistance of the colonists. But these colonists must hereafter
not exist on the limited and restricted system of
former days that limited and restricted system
must be acknowledged to be erroneous. Our
principles must be altered. I believe that both the mother
country and the colonies would flourish all the more for the
abolition of useless restrictions—that after some period of mur-
muring, perhaps, its advantage will be acknowledged ; but in this
country, and in the magnificent possessions which belong to us,
it will be acknowledged that we have hitherto been mistaken
in the value of the policy which has been adopted, and an
affection will be all the stronger when neither is subject to re-
strictions, except those imposed upon the other.--( Hear,
hear.) When the colonies are neither obliged to
submit to some restriction for some supposed bene-
fit to the mother country. nor the mother country
deprived of the benefit of some of the choicest pro-
ductions of the globe for some interests to be favoured at the
expense of an important policy. I trust the colonial empire
of this country is an empire of which every statesman
of this country
.must justly be proud—to which the people of
this country justly attach the highest value. I trust
that when this better system has been adopted, we
shall see those colonies increase and flourish—that
we shall be proud of them as our possessions, and
enjoying the liberty which we have given them, and that
both may flourish for long years together. Sir, I shall now
only propose to the House a resolution for the continuance of the
present duties, and lay on the table the resolution, the nature
of which I have stated in Committee. I trust that these
resolutions will hereafter be adopted, and that they will
soon receive the sanction of Parliament; and should they be
adopted, I think the present. Ministry, however short may be
their tenure of office, will not have administered affairs
without some utility to the country,—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord concluded by proposing a resolution

fortunate" applied to the West Indian labourers by the Hon.
Member for Finsbury was not appropriate, for they were the
best paid of any class of workmen in the world. They were
so well off indeed that they could not be got to work. He
thought that the Noble Lord had acted wisely in limiting the
term of equalisation of duties to five years.
Lord G. BENTINCK, in answer to the Hon. Member
for Finsbury, said, that the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government had no sympathy whatever with cold-blooded,
merciless, or cruel speculators • and the labourers who would be
introduced into the West Indies would be amply protected.
Mr. CHARM AN slid, that the Hill Coolies who had been
formerly imported into the West Indies, had gone back to
their native country with money in their pockets, and in every
other respect they were both comfortable and 1 appy.
Sir W. JAMES wished to know whether the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government was prepared to lay upon
the table of the House any papers tending to show that one
shilling was a proper sum to be -considered as a differential
duty bet Ween freensid alaneygrorn sulatt, i t - .
Lord 8A NDOW aka ror some fursikeeiritarrnation on the
question of slave-grown sugar,
.before h., could pronounce an
opinion upon the proposed measure. From what he had heard,
and what he at present knew of the subject, he thought the
proposition was not at all calculated either to improve the
revenue, or to benefit the consumer or the grower.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, with
reference to laying on the table of the House any return as to
-
the amount of differential duties, he did not think he could by
any returns afford any information sufficiently explicit for the
Hon. Member (Sir W. Janes). The Hon. Member also made
some remarks in answer to Lord Sandon, the purport of which
did not reach the gallery. thou
Mr. P. BORTHWICK ght that higher protee
tion should be afforded to the West Indian colonies.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not the intention of Govern-
ment to allow any labourers to be imported into the West Indian
colonies from any parteither in Africa or Asia, where there
were not Br:ti.:11 settlements. This precaution had been
adopted by her Majesty ' s Government, in order to prevent a
revival
thinaetliti nysnio
degree
en
ofthe slave trade. He was not inclined
to draw between slave and free_grown sugar.
The CHAIRMAN then put the resolution, which was carried,
and ordered to be reported on Wednesday next.
sailors, and to the manner in which
The House then resumed.
SUPPLY.
uteri in the British navy. There
Mr. WARD then moved that the House go into a Corn-
mittee of Supply.
there was complete protection
Mr. WILLIAMS rose to draw the attention of the House
judgmentof court-mar-
wet ooautshr
courts-martial
practice i
appealof are floggingro(nmsti t
the
The civilian, also, had every pro-
tection. He might appeal to the mercy of the Crown.
againsttial Invioltehnece.anny
But for the poor sailor there wand appeal either for mercy or
against an nnjust judgment, he felt quite sure that if
these circumstances were generally known the country would
not permit such hardships to be inflicted upon a body to whom
they peculiarly looked for protection. The system of flogging
in the navy was, he considered, most dangerous, and which, if
it were not altered, might bring serious consequmces upon the
country. Formerly any commander could tie up a man and
inflict any punishment it was his will and pleasure to
do. But what was the present system with regard
to this infamous Punishment—the most degrading
that could he suffered by any man—and which had
broken the hearts of men. Why, under the present system
the lashes were conEned to forty-eight, which he was assured
was equal to two hundred in the army. Many naval officers
said more, and common sense points out that such must be
the case. In the army the lashes were given with a small twine,
boy ; but it was otherwise in
inflicted with a thickish cord,
twheaersship, generally the boatswain ;
andtahn
the navy
nvbaeyvr
yyth; e the often
stoutestpb punishment
i as
man
1 1 1
le
ad
nr drummer
m ii
nm
and he had been assured that after the first blow the blood
streamed from every pore.—( Hear, hear.) He did hope
that the public would take up the protectioon o

, •
jthese pnfortnnate beings, who had neither just Th 4 .1.1.1 e subjects referred to by the Hon. and OsNat Member
u.lge or jury.—(Hear, hear. ) Hon. Gentlemen eermed to I would be duly attended to.
make very merry on this question, but he would jint read to ' Mr. HUME deprecated the system of changing the members
them some extracis from a pamphlet which he held in his of the Board of Admiralty with the change of the Govern-
hand, in which it was stated, that for a most trivial fault it merit. He also deprecated the perpetual system of crying
was customary to tie the sailor to a ma=y. either in cold or ' down our navy. lie really thought that discussions of this
scorching weather, and leave him exposed for several hours • sort did the country very great uspery.—( Hear, hear.)
—or oblige him to run up and down the rigging under a Lord INGESTRE considered that the Hon. and Gallant
scorching sun—or condemn him to werr a wooden collar for Member had acted very properly in bringing the state of he
days and nights together—or inflict upon him the brutal navy before the House. He ( Lord Ingestre) had often im.
punishment of the lash ; and all this might be done pressed upon the House the necessity of appointing a Board of
' without even the formalities of a trial.—( dear, hear.) Construction. He protested against the present system of
All those acquainted cith the proceedings on board of ship lavish expenditure on the part of the Admiralty. The men-
must know that nearly all the mutinies that had taken place in of-war that had been recently built were clearly disgraceful to
the navy have had their origin in this practice cf flogging. those who were concerned in the construction of them. He
But the important question they had to ask themselves was, had, on a former occasion, asked for a full report of the
was this system of flogging necessary ? He had had commie character of the different men-of- war that had been
nications on the subject with many officers in the navy, and built and sent out during the past few years.
their general opinion was, that flogging, except in very extreme —( Hear hear.) That report hail ..Mot been produced.
cases, was not, necessary. And if so—if there were cases in and he often called upon the Government to produce such a
which flogging might be considered necessary—then he main- I report. He was of opinion that there should be more than one
tained there ought to he a provision for a court martial to surveyor of the navy. He must certainly compliment the late
adjudicate punishment. And who were the tarties who were Board on having appointed a Committee of Reference, which
in the practice of resorting to flagging in the navy ? Not the he believed was a step in the right direction. But even that
old and experienced officers, but those who were called mar- step was a mere instalment. He hoped the Board would Iwo-
tinets, who were exceedingly fastidious on the point of discip- teed in their present course of reform. They had also re-
line, and who perhaps did not well know what the duties of an establirbed the school of naval architecture ; that was another
4ld sailor were. It was well known that Nelson abhorred step in the right direetion.—( Hear, hear.) But the Govern.
fl egging, and only resorted to it in extreme cases ; and that ment he hoped would find it to be expedient to reform that
that great man, Napoleon, abolished flogging when he came school, by opening it to the best talent of the country. The sum
into supreme power. The real n why, as stated by the Hon, that had been expanded in the construction of her Majesty a
and Gallant Member (Sir Charles Napier), they had inferior yacht was perfectly frightful ; had there been a proper system
seamen in the navy was this abominable practice of flogging. in operation, that would not have been the case. In this man-
Out of 110S00 men in the United States navy anti merchant nor the country were constantly throwing away the money of
service, not mire than 20,000 were ci: izens of America ; the public instead of applying it to more useful reforms and
the greater number were Englishmen who hail been attracted a more efficient nary.
to that service on account of the superior treatment they re- Admiral DUNDAS said that the Government had now a
ceived and the system adopted in the British navy. He en- number of frigates and vessels better manned than they had
treated the present Government calmly and dispassionately to ever been at any tune.
consider this question, and afford a remedy ; especially he Admiral BO\VLES also made some statements to the same
trusted that the principle of a court-martial would be adopted. effect.
He hoped that redress would be afforded, so that be should Mr. M. GORE wished to call the attention of the Govern-
not have again to bring the question before the House. ment to the necessity of affording the means of education
Mr. WARD would beg to remind the Hon. Member and and a home to the British sailor.
the House that the present Admiralty had only come• into SUPPLY.
office on Monday last, and therefore had not had time to con- The House then went into a Committee of Supply.
Bider the question. He hoped, therefore, the point would On the motion of Mr. WARD, the sum of 394,7201- was
not be pressed by the Hon. Member at present. It could not voted for the navy estimates.
be denied, and, in fact, the Hon. Gentleman had himself ad- Captain PECHELL said that 267 letters had been sent in,
mitted it, that it was impossible to keep large bodies of men in requesting retirement under the proposed regulations of the
a fit state of discipline without punishment of some kind, and late Board. Those regulations had not been carried into effect,
a hich would sometimes have to be of a severe character. He and he thought it but a matter of justice that .those letters
(Mr. Ward) was glad to say that a great improvement had should be returned, otherwise they might prejudice their claims
taken place in regard to the punishment of flogging within to active service, should these regulations not be carried into
the last few years.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") In 1832, effect.
out of 34,000, the cases of severe punishment were 2,00.); in Mr. WARD thought that upon a future occasion the House
1845, out of 40,000 men, the eases were but 1,203.—( Hear, would have a more favourable opportunity for entering into the
hear.) The lion. Member might rest assured that nothing details and merits of the question.
would be left undone by the present Admiralty to do away Captain FITZ ROY made some remarks in explanation of
with arbitrary and undue punishment, and to bring into opera- the late attempt to form a new system of retiring allowances for
tion moral and elevating influences instead.—(Hear, hear.) the officers of the navy.
Mr. HUME hoped they would, as far as possible, modify the The vote was then agreed to.
rules and punishments in the navy, so that they might bar- A vote of 705,448/. was next proposed to provide for half-
monise more than they now did with the spirit of the age. pay officers, and the officers of-the royal marine.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, it was quite impossible This vote was also agreed to.
that the efficiency and discipline of the navy could be preserved Sir R. H. INGLIS wished to bring forward his motion, of 1
without the power of inflicting corporeal punishment in cases which he had given notice,' the Museum estimates. '
of misconduct on the part of the sailors, and he for one was Mr. HUME proposed that the chairman do report progress.
therefore decideoly opposed to its abolition. In the event of It was then half-past twelve o'clock, and it would take him
the punishment being unnecessarily severe, there was a court half an hour to explain his objection to the vote ; one ground
of appeal for the sailor, but instances of severity seldom or of his complaint was, that the library was neglected ; another,
never occurred, owing, as he contended, to the majority of the that the members of the committee did not attend to the re-
commanders being averse to the system of always having re- commendations of the Committee of that House ; there were
course to corporeal punishment.—( Hear, hear.) Still, how- several other grounds of objection which he would not now
ever, he was of opinion, that if they took the power from them, go into.
there would be an end to the present efficiency and discipline The CHAIR3IAN, after some discussion between Sir H. In-
of the service.—( Hear, hear.) glis and Mr. Hume, then reported progress, and obtained
Sir C. NAPIER suggested that, after the explanation they leave to sit again on Wednesday.
had heard frcm the Gallent Admiral, the Hon. Member for The Tenants Compensation Ireland Bill went through Come
Coventry ought not to persevere in his motion, hut he could mittee pro firma.
not go so far as the Gallant Admiral in his admiration or The Wreck and Salvage Bill was postponed till Thursday
estimation of corporeal punishment. What he found fault next.
with in the system was this, that the articles of war gave the The Newfoundland Bill was postponed till Monday next.
captain the power of inflicting the punishment without having CLERKS OF THE CROWN, &c. (IRELAND) BILL.
recourse to a court-martial.—( Hear, hear.) This Bill was postponed to the same day.
Admiral DUNDAS thought it would be almost impossible EXCLUSIVE PRIVILEGE OF TRADING ABOLITION
to carry on the business of the navy without inflicting corporeal (IRELAND) BILL.
punishment.—( Hear, hear.) This Bill was committed pro forma, for the purpose of in-
Captain PECHELL was not opposed to continuing the troducing amendments. -
power, but he certainly was an advocate for its being used in a AMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL.
moderate manner, and only in extreme cases, when other This Bill was withdrawn.
modes of punishment had failed.—(Hear, hear.) BOOKS AND ENGRAVINGS BILL.
Mr. TRELAWNEY urged upon Government the necessity This Bill was read a second time.
of increasing the pay of the sailors engaged in the navy. Some SUPPLY.
people thought dread of the lash kept efficient seamen out of The report of the Complete on Supply was then brought up
the service, but in his opinion it was the low pay, and not the and agreed to.
lash. —( Herr. hear.) SHANNON NAVIGATION BILL.
Lord INGESTRE said the commander of a ship in her Th is Bill was read a second time.
Majesty's service had a good deal of responsibility on his COMMONS INCLOSURE (No. 2) Brt.L.
shoulders, and it was indispensably necessary that he should On the motion that the House resolve itself into Committee
be invested with the power of inflicting corporeal punishment on this Bill,
where the exigencies of the case required it.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. BROTHERTON said he thought that this Bill should
He hoped that nothing would be done to destroy that good feel- not be proceeded with at so late an hour (One o'clock).
ins which at present prevailed in the army and navy. Lord LINCOLN was very much opposed to it. -
VAN DIEMEN'S LAND. The House, however, went into Committee on the Bill. The
On the question that the Speaker do now leave the chair, clauses with some amendments were agreed to, and the report
Mr. EWAR T moved " That it is expedient that the prat- ordered to be brought up on Wednesday next.
tine of making Van Diemen's Land a general receptacle for ORDNANCE SURVEY BILL.
convicts should cease, and that transportation be discontinued." This Bill was then read a third time and passed.
The present system entailed the most awful consequences on PRISONS (IRELAND) BILL.
the people of that country. At the present moment the con- This Bill was read a second time.
vict population was about 34,000, whilst the free population FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL.
was only 30,0J0. Now, the result was, that there was a most On the motion that this Bill be read a second time,
fearful contamination, and the free people were not safe either Captain JONES gave notice of his intention to oppose it in
'n or out of doers. Many of the free people had openly said Committee.
hat they would rather see their children die before their eyes The Bill,afterafiw?-bseryxtions, was read a second time.

than see them continue to grow up amongst the convict po-
pulation. Now there was a system which might gradually
remedy the evil, and that was this, that the convicts of this
country should be imprisoned here for the terms to which they
might be sentenced, and at the expiration conveyed away to
some colony, where they might be free to follow those pro-
fessions to which they had been brought up. That system
had been adopted as regarded Port Philip, and the
results were most satisfactory ; the released convicts
were gradually made honest and industrious. Instead
of accumulating stir convicts into one spot, he contended that
they should be punished here, and afterwards dispersed
throughout our different colonies. The annals of our colonies
loudly called upon us to bestir ourselves on this head ; they
showed that our present system was productive of the most
frightful results. 'f he system which he recommended was al-
ready adopted and approved of in France. He would forego
going into this subject at any great length, in consequence of
the late period of the session, as well as the change of the Go-
vernment ; but he trusted, hat briefly as he had called the at-
tention of the Government to this subject, they would take it
into their most serious consideration.
The motion having been put,
Sir GE( )RGE GREY admitted that this subject was one
hich deserved the most earnest attention of the Government.
Something was now in the course of being done to remove the
evils of which the Hon. Gentleman had justly complained, and
he hoped, that in the space of about two years, the good
effects of those efforts would begin to manifest themselves.
with regard to the second proposition, it could not be supposed
that her Majesty's Government were in a position at present
to give any answer upon the subject. In -theory he entirely
agreed with the Hon. Member for Dumfries. The question
of punishment was one of the most difficult with which a
Government could deal. But the Hon. Member might rest
assured that the subject would receive the best consideration of
her Majesty's Government
_

Lord H. VANE made a few remark!, which were perfectly
inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. HOPE said that an alteration had been made in the
system of transportation by his Noble Friend ; religious im-
provement had been made among them ; several directions
were sent out for the classification and assignment of the con-
victs. There were great difficulties attendant upon dealing
with this complicated question, and the plan proposed by the
Hon. Member for Dumfries was one which could not be con-
veniently carried out.
Mr. HUME considered that to attempt reformation in this
country would be to bring upon this country all the evils
complained of in the settlements to which the convicts were
now sent; he thought that education would be the most proper
mode of removing and preventing crime.
Mr. HAWES assured the House that the attention of her
Majesty's Government should be directed to the subject of
transportation to Van Diemen's Land.
After a few remarks from Mr. Hope (in explanation), Mr.
Hawes, and Mr. Ewart, the motion was withdrawn.
THE NAVY.
_

On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply,
Sir C. NAPIER rose to put a question to the Admiralty,
respecting the cost of building, repairing, and pulling down
the vessels lately built. He thought if the Government had
spent more money in manning the navy than in building ships,
the navy would have been in a much more efficient position.
Since 1843 he saw by a return from the Admiralty (and he
was sorry to say these returns were not very correct), they had
launched two ships of the line, six frigates, and fourteen
steamers, and they had now on the stacks six 92-gun ships, five
84-gun ships, three 50-gun frigates, four 26-gun frigates, and
a number of small vessels. With such an enormous navy on
the water, what was the use of constructing these enormous
ships, when, if they had a war, they could not man the half of
them in three years? Whit the Government ought to do was
to turn their attention to getting more seamen, and putting
them on a proper foundation. They might as well say, that
when they had a great many barracks and forts they had a fine
army, as to boast of the number of their ships, and declare they
had a fine navy. Seeing the number of ships that bad been
laid down, he (Sir C. Napier) thought we were in a moat.
unfortunate position. The reports relative to-the squadrons
which had been sent to sea were extremely unfisvonsAble as far
as the sea-going qualities of these ships were concerned. And
yet we had an enormous number of ships on the stocks exactly
of the same calibre and dimensions, and, as he expected,
with the same faults. He found also that six 74-gun ships,
which the late Board of Admiralty called block-ships, were
some in the King's yards, aad some in merchants' yards, to
be fitted with screws and to carry forty guns ; and he wished
to know if it were prudent for any Board of Admiralty to de
this to such an extent without having made a trial? If these
block-ships did not succeed, what then would be the use of
them? Casting his eye through the navy estimates, he ob-
served a sum of 18,000/. for repairs of steam gnat d-ships ; but
he had no hesitation in saying that one of those ships would
cost all the money that was put down for the repairs of the
whole. The Retribution and Avenger would be perfect men•
of-war, but after building paddle-box boats for them, the con-
structor came forward and said that they could not carry the
boats, and they were therefore taken out and sent to store. He
hoped that what he had directed attention to would induce his
Hon. Friends at the hoard of Admiralty to pay a little more at-
tention to the sabject of construction. At present we were at
an enormous expense, increasing the navy without having
first ascertained whether the new ships would answer or net.
He admitted that the late Government had done much for the
sailor in the way of improving his food, but he wanted to
know what that or any other Government had done towards
manning the navy on an emergency. A good deal was done
last session in passing the. Registration Bill, but it had defects,
hra
en he
had
dd
obveee
nt hopedthem.
renderedthe
eperowemsoepunli
complete,
esecretarythat
Ge
nowvdoe, ur
afterli di t
n takentt h
the
earlyhoui
registrationstd
eps
call
all
the seamen of the country out by presses Immediately after
a young man had served his apprenticeship on board of a mer.
chantman, he should be taken on board one of her Majesty's
ships, and having served a short while there, he should be
allowed to return to the merchant service. If this system were
adopted, the navy would always be efficient, while, on imrner-
gencies, it could be manned with skilful and experienced
mariners without the least difficulty. ( Hear, hear.)
He believed that nothing would so much raise the hopes of the
seamen of this country as the establishment by the Board of
Admiralty of a seaman's home at Plymouth, where their
morals, health, and bellies would be provided for. Unless
some one not a Member of the Admiralty were appointed to
the building of the ships, he was sure things would always go
wrong. The duties of the present head of that department
were too numerous to allow him properly to discharge his duty,
and involved in the end the useless expenditure of a large sum
of money annually. He hoped that a proper Board of Con-
struction would be appointed, who should sit in London, and
whose number should consist of three at le men. Those men
would have the opportunity of considering all plans on subjects
connected vi ith the navy shipbuilding. Having thanked the
House for the attention which they had paid to him, the Hon.
Gentleman concluded his observations.
Mr. WARD hoped that the Hon, and Gallant Member
would allow the House to go into a Committee of Supply.

Mr. BRO'ffIERTON said there were some other Irish
Bills, and as it was then half past one o'clock, he should move
that the House do adjourn.
THE MILITIA.
Mr. F. MAULE obtained leave to bring in a Bill to sus-
pend fora limited time the making of lists and ballots for ale
enrolment of the militia in the Unit, d Kingdom.
The S. me RIGHT HON. GENTLEMAN also moved the ap-
pointment of a Select Committee to prepare the militia sche-
dules, which was agreed to.
SUNDAY TRADING.
Mr. HINDLEY having moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to suppress Sunday trading,
Mr. WARBURTON said he hail no notion that his Hon.
Friend would have moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the
better observance—( Laughter)—of the Sabbath at so late an
hour, and as he was decidedly opposed to such a Bill, he should
more the !louse do now adjourn.
Mr. HINDLEY consented to withdraw his motion for the
present.
CORONERS' (IRELAND) BILL.
The Lords' amendments to this Bill having been considered
and adopted,
The House adjourned at Two o'clock.