The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-11 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, August 10.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Twelve o'clock, when
Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR, being introduced by Lord
Marcus Bill and the Attorney-General, took the oaths and his
seat for Chester.

BATTERSEA PARK.
The Bill fir this undertaking was read a !hird time and passed.
GAUGE OF RAILWAYS BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
THIRD READINGS.
The following Bitls were also read a third time:—Bishop of
Jerusalem's Naturalization Bill—Bishop of Norwich (North
Llynn R dory) Estate Bil—Borthwick's Estate Bill—Clark's
Divorce Bill— Lowestoft Charity Estate Bill—Niattbyssens'
Divorce Bill—Percherton's (or Gervi,'s) Estate Bill.
DRAINAGE OF LAND.
Mr. GREENE brought up the report on this Bill.
STANDING ORDERS.

Mr. HUME ro'e to move the resolutions, of which he had
given notic3, for the amendment of the standing orders, which
are to the following effect:—
" 1. That public general Acts should be prepared for each
of the several subjects of police and watching, of waterworks
and sewage, of paving, of improvement of towns and regulation
of buildings, streets, and roads, of markets and fairs, of
cemeteries, of bridges and ferries, of harbours, docks, ports,
piers and quays, of canal', rivers, and navigation, as recom-
minded in the report of the Select Committee on Private Bills,
embodying, as far as possible, the suggestions th reof.
" '2. That, as recommended in the said report, provision
should be made in the preparation of these public general
Ae,s, by which parties, desiring to avail themselves of them,

be afforded the means of carrying their projects into execution
under tho authority and supervision of one of the public
bo .rd. or departments, without the necessity of applying to
Parliament, on a principle similar to that which has been
already carried into effect by the Act 3 and 4 Will. 4, c. 90,
for Lighting Towns in England; by the Act 9 Geo. 4. c. 82,
fur Lighting Towns. &c. in Ireland; and by the Act 3 and 4
Will. 4, c 46, for Police in Scotland.

"3. That with the view of an immediate saving of time and
expense in the proof of standing orders, in the ensuing session
of Parliament, the proof of standing orders, now taken before•
the Sub.Cmcmittees, shall be taken before an officer or officers,.

to be appointed by Mr. Speaker, and such officer shall com-
mence his sittings for that purpose on the Ist day of January,.
1847.
" 4. That the standing orders of the House should be im—
mediately revised, as regards the proof of the standing orders
for private Bills to be given before such officers appointed by.

could be assimilated.
borough, parish,
the rowers, or acting under the
Mr: Speaker.
" 5. That it would be productive of great advantage in privates
legislation, if the standing orders of the two Houses of
local Act or Acts, shall apply to
Par-
liament, relating to private Bills,
ill for new and amended powers anal
company, err
"6. That when any city,
other parties, invested with
provisions of any existing
h, parish, or district, to the Board
Parliament for a new B
provisions, with reference to the same matters, it shall be ins.-
perative on the promoters to send their new Bill, together
Acts, tocether with the new on.
with all previous existing Acts then in force on the same stslO-
ject With in the eit• , h.roug
;ions sought for, should be conso. -
of Trade, which shall report to the House whether, in their
opiiiion, the new Bill should be allowed to proceed, or whether
place, with reference to the same
all the existing Acts should be repealed, and the powers anti
!irdro,vtiisdioodnspoofw,siTischaordepie,raolevdi
liilat.-d, to the intent that only ens local Act shall be in force art
shall be introduced
or department, to which
he ,are time, in the same
object..
board town,
7. That after the next session of Parliament no private
Bill for power to establish waterworks and sewage, police
aion:4o7haitschiiinogo,soimoloirtrifive,
the ties . f Bills to which it belongs has been referred shall, as
revel-mm.ll(l.qt in the said report, have maTle a previous local
exatuin aloe by compel eet aid respetisihle insp ctot s and public
officers, at the expense of the promoters of the Bill, in a mode
andlogou, to that adopted by the Tithe, the Inclasure Com-
micsions, &e., and that these public bards should be empow-
ered to appoint, and employ such public inspectors and public
officers. imiet7uoliflica
"S. That the recommenda'ion in the said report, as to the
taxati in of the costs of parties promoting or
opposing prix ate
Bills, be also adapted ; „,-,,1 that a pece,er taxing officer shot ild
be appointed, and a scale of fees, costs, and charges be anti ho-
rised and published by Mr. Speaker.
9. That the taxi :g officer .hall present to the House, at • the
coi.mence.eent of each session, an account of the total mot int
of the expenses tor promoting or oopesing each Bill taxed and
sanetioved by hint during the ireceding session, distinguishing
the amount paid as fees on each Bill to each of the Houses of
Parliament, the amount for witnesses and other expenses,• and
for erofessional services."
The a option of these resolutions would have the effe !et .of
erVicating the great evil of the delay of businms whit b was
now so grieveuTy felt, and which by the mass of private busi-
ness that was brought before the House was become ins offer-
, able. It would also have the effect of saving the time 9f no

less than fifty Members during the whole period of the session.
Daring the present session it bad frequently occurred thst as
many as two hundred witnesses had frequently been examined
on one private Bill. Since the Union, not less than 9,400
private Bills had been passed by Parliament, while the public
k3ills amounted to only 5,300. Now, according to the present
system, many places were saddled with insufficient and expen-
sive local Acts for a number of years. By taking the plan pro.
posed by those resolutions the evil would be remedied. flany
of these—indeed most of those Bills called private Bills—were in
fact public Bill, as much as those which were caked so. He
would refer all the Bills to some responsible department of
Government, so as to save the expense arid the trouble from
every Bill peing before a Committee of Standing Orders. He
would also propose that the orders of both Houses of Parlia-
ment should be assimilated. There was a Committee of the
other House now sitting, and he was quite sure that every
willingness would be shown to meet their Lordships' views, and
thus the once proving of compliance with the standing orders
would he sufficient. Another object he had to serve was the
saving that confusion which now arose from there being a
number of local Acts for one place. He proposed that when
any corporate body applied for an Act of Parliament that they
should be obliged, in the first instance, to make their
application to the Board of Trade, by whom the merits
of the case should be investigated, and if they thought
it necessary such corporate body should be compelled to
consolidate all their previous Bills, so that there should be only
one Bill for one object for each particular place; thus there
should be only one Police Bill, one Water-rate Bill, or one
other Mil for any one place. The next object was to save the
expense to clients who applied for Acts. This was the only
tribunal in the country without a taxing officer, and he would
have such an officer appointed, whose business it should be to
ascertain what the fair and necessary charges should be.
Again, he would have all the Bills drawn in one particular
form, so as to s-cure uniformity and save the money of the ap-
plicants. He had alluded to all the points because he did not
expect to speak of them again. He would conclude by moving
the first resolution.
Lord EBRINGTON seconded the motion.
Lord GRANTILLE SOMERSET objected to the whole
of these resolutions being carried at once, and to the weight
of the Government being brought to bear on them.
Sir GEORGE GREY could not agree to what had just
fallen from the Noble Lord. Although he would net give his
approval of the whole of them, he did not object to the two
first.

The resolution was then earned.
On the second resolution being read,
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET objected also to this re-
solution as being likely to give excessive power to the several
departments of the Government, and also in some instances to
local authorities.
Sir GEORGE GREY could not assent to this view of the
case, for he conceived that in the country all local Acts would
be proposed and considered in public vestries, and they would
therefore have the sanction of the inhabitants generally.
Mr. ET WALL conceived that the object of the lion.
Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) was to save expense, and
that he would refer all his Bills to the several departments of
the Government under whose cognizance they would fall,
if the object was not to be carried out by a Bill. This, he
thought. would prove expensive.
Mr. HUME was quite ready to restrict the extent of the
meaning of the resolution, by striking out the parentheiis
which would have the effect of keeping the public business to
two departments—the Admiralty and another, beside the
Board of Trade.

Lord G. SOMERSET conceived this would have the effect
of giving Government the power to tax the public locally, which
was a proceeding he would decidedly oppose.
Lord EBRINTON thought, that, as he had been on the
Committee which proposed the resolutions, he might state, that
wherever feasible, all the local Acts should be modelled in some
general Act.
Mr. HUME explained that wherever a local Act was re-
quired, it was intended to send down a Commis,ioner to the
place requiring it, and if he ascertained that two-thirds of the
inhabitants were favourable that they should have the advan-
taze of Parliamentary aid without the mischief of an expensive
contest. The general Act on which they proposed to base
these Acts was the 3 and 4 W. IV. c. 19.
After a few words from Lord M ORP ET PI, indicating his ap-
prehension of the phrateolcgy of the resolution,
Mr. T. DUNCOM BE said that, however evident might be
the intention of the sentence, it was not sufficiently expressed,
and he would suggest that the whole of the resolutions be with-
drawn for a day or two, to be made more perfect, as the House
was evidently favourable to their object.
Mr. HUME referred the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Duncombe)
to the report of the Committee, which specified the course to be
adopted with respect to these local Bills. The cautious course
pointed out would prevent any of the evils which the Hon.
Gentleman anticipated would arise under the resolution.
After a short discussion,
Mr. HUME consented to withdraw No. 2, on the ground of
its being virtually included in the first, and it was withdrawn
accordingly.
The third resolution being proposed,
Sir GEORGE GREY said it was framed in exact accord-
an,e with the reports of the Standing Orders' Committees of
both Houses of Parliament, and would, in his opinion, obviate
much expense and inconvenience, in addition to saving the
time of a number of Members of Parliament, because the duties
now assigned to them, and from which they suffered much in-
e-nvenience, would be performed by a competent officer, or
officers.

Lord G. SOMERSET agreed with the resolution, but con-
sidered that the lst of February would be preferable to the Ist
of July.
Mr. 13UN1E had intended to have left out the month at
which the officer should commence his labours, but he inserted
July at the wish of an Hon. Member. lie had no objection
to leave out the month, and to leave the time the officer should
commence his labours to be named by the Speaker.
The resolution so amended was then agreed to.
The fourth resolution was next proposed, and, after a short
discussion, agreed to.
No. 5 was agreed to.
Not. 6 and 7 were next proposed.
Lord MORPETH said that he thought that no Bill for
waterworks should be proposed or brought forward next ses-
sion unless proper notice were given to the Board of Trade, in
order that patties might be sent to see the place and report to
the Committee en the Bill. He should propose to introduce a
Bill to that effect.

Mr. HUME consented, under those circumstances, to
withdraw resolution No. 7.
Resolution No. 6 was then agreed to.
On resolution No. 8 being proposed,
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET thought that this reso-
lution, if carried, would lead to much confusion and trouble.
If the taxing officer were to tax all costs incurred before Par-
liamentary Committees, it would be necessary to go much more
into detail with r?gard to his functions.
Sir G. GREY said he thought that the duties of the
officer were not sufficiently specified, and he thought that the
Hon. Member had better withdraw it, in order that an Act,

which mizht go more into details, might be brought in.
Mr. HUME said if the Right Hon. Baronet would promise
to bring forward any more specific measure, and promise to
give the matter his consideration, he was content to leave the
management of it in the hands of Government.
Sir G. GREY intimated that no legislation on the
subject could take place this session.
Mr. HUME said that he did not expect it.
After some further conversation, _ _

Mr. HUME consented to withdraw the resolutions 8 and 9,
on the understanding that the subject should come under the
consideration of the House at an early period next session.
Mr. MUNTZ presented a petition from Birmirwham, in
favour of the Small Debts Bill, with the exception of clause 55.
Mr. WILLIAMS presented a petition against carrying out
the punishment of death against the marine recently con-
demned to death for striking his Fuper 'or officer.
FLOGGING IN THE ARMY.

Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE moved for a return of persons
flogged in the army in Great Britain and Ireland, in the years
1845 and 1846 to the end of July, specifying—l. The offence.
2. The regiment, the place of station, the time. 3. The sen-
tence. 4. The order for its execution. 5. Whether the trials
were open to the public, or only open to the regiment, or w ith
closed doors. 6. The number of lashes inflicted, and the
day. 7. How soon after punishment the man was able to re-
turn to his duty, and at what place he was then quartered. 8.
Wh-ther death has followed within twelve months of the
flogging, and the date of such death. 9. Whether the punish.
ment was inflicted, if in cavalry regiments, by the trumpeter or
farrier ; if in infantry regiments, by the privates or drummers,
and with what instrument. 10. Copies of the surgeon's mi-
nutes of all such punlshments, and any subsequent observations
on their consequences.—Agreed to.
POOR•LAW COMMISSIONERS. . _

Mr. HUCIE gave notice that he would move a series of re-
solutions on Thursday next in reference to the conduct of the
Poor-law Commissioners.
The Hon. MEMBER also moved for a copy of the existing
tariff in the island of Ceylon, stating the name of every article
imported and exported, the rate of duty charged, and the
amount of duty received on each article ; also, the aggregate
amount of revenue, distinguishing that on imports and ex-
ports in each of the three years 1842,1843, and 1844.
Agreed to.
IMPROVEMENT OF THE SHANNON.

Mr. F. FRENCH wished to ask a question of the Hon.
Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward) in reference to the im-
provement of the river Shannon. It was whether he would
have any objection to the production of the instructions given
to the Commissioners of Public Works, as to whether it was or
improvement
of not expedient for them to proceed with the
of the river till such time as the Government had decidaJ
improvements
suggested they were willing or not to allow the
suggested to take place?
Mr. WARD said, as the matter on which information was
sought did not strictly come within his jurisdiction he would
consult with the proper parties, and give au answer to-morrow
or the next day.
Mr. HUME moved for a table of the number of articles im-
ported, in classes, in the year 1844, showing the number of
articles imported free ; the number producing from 100!. to
1991.; the number producing from 500!. to 9991. ; the num-
ber producing from 1,000;. to 4,9991. ; the number producing
from 5,009/. to 50,000/. ; the number producing above
50,0001. ; and the total amount of duty received from each
class, and the aggregate amount of all the classes. A similar
return of exports, in classes.--Agreed to.
MILLI3AN K. PRISON.
On the motion for the order of the day for a Committee of
Supply being read,
Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE rose to move for a Select Com-
mittee to inquire into the treatment of prisoners confined since
1843 in the Alillbank privet, as well as into the conduct of the
Governor and officers thereof, and to repert their opinion,
with the evidence to the House. The Honourable Gen-
tleman commenced by a review of his previous proceedings
in relation to this prison, and complaining of the way in which
the Government had met his proposition for inquiry. His
report on that occasion, which in the main was correct, though
not in a'l its details, had ben cut out of the Times newspaper,
and hawked about the Alillbank prison, with the object of
getting up a counter-statement, in order to meet the allegations
he had made. Instead of going in this underhand way to work,
they ought to have at once institu.ed a full and satisfactory
inquiry into the whole mode in which that establishment was
conducted. Cases of cruelty and togging of the severest
character had been alleged against the officers of the prison.
and as yet no step had been male to meet the charges. Ati
attempt on the part of the officers to inflict corposal punish-
ment for the offence ftr which the two men to whom he re-
fer' ed cn the previous occasion had been flogged was illegal.
Bs referring to the Act of Parliament on which the institution
was founded, they would find that if a man attempted to as-
sault the governor. he was to be prosecuted in the usual war
for the offence, and might be punished with two years' impri-
flogging, as the Court might direct. It was
sonment, or with
not, then fore. in the hands of the officers of the prison
that the punishment was placed, but in the Court before
whom the prisoner was tried. Besides, the cat with which
Bunvon and the other man were flogged was illegal. Why
fleggicg in the army was mercy itself compareo to being
flogged with such a cat. He had a pattern of the cat, which
contained enormous knots, anti he was informed that there
never was a raore disgusting scene than when Bunyan was
flogged with it. The other man, Cotterel, received sixty
lashes from the same cat, and he, having been formerly a
soldier, declared that he had received 150 lashes when in the
army, but that the flogging was a joke to that which he re-
ceived at Millbank. Instead of being then taken to the
infirmary, he was taken to his prison. He ( Mr. Duncombe)
considered such conduct was cruel in the extreme. Mr.
Baker, in his second petition, referred to these com-
plaints. The chaplain himself said that the sentence was a very
severe one. The governor admitted that he put these boys

in question upon bread and water for seven days. Then, as to
suicides ; there had been sixteen attempts at suicide in the
pritun during the last three years, and four had succeeded in
putting an end to their existence—making twenty altogether.
it this, no doubt, resulted from the cruel treatment of

the governor.

The prisoners at Alillbank amounted to

1,00(►.. and it was said that four suicides out of such

o. number was not extraordinary ; but he
contented that, considering the inmates of the prison had no
faciltics for self-murder afforded to them, the number was most

extraordinary. The system ,af treatment of criminals then
Waci mo!t vicious and cruel, when it compelled them to seek for
death as a refuge. Then, again, in consequence of the un-
healthiness of the prison, and the had food on which the in-
mates were fed, the cases of death were innumer-

ahie. The medical gentlemen admitted that fact.
Within the last three yews 300 of the inmates
of Millbank had to he removed to a more healthy

s!tuation and fort}-eight of them had died. The inquests
that were held on these persons he asserted were not full and
fair inquiries into the cautes of these deaths. Both coroners

and jurors failed to do their duty ; they had not recorded it as
their opinton that ;the parties on whose bodies they sat had
been actually murdered by the inhuman treatment of the
governor at the prison in question. In conclusion,
he would merely remark that if he had not on
a former occasion, when he brought this subject
under the attention of the House, made out a

good case, he had at least done so now. What the Govern-
ment intended to do in reference to this question he knew not,
but he could say, in answer to the objection that the Right
Honourab!e Baronet the Secretary of State for the
Herne Department had made on a previous occasion,
that that gentleman had a complete power of controlling the
conduct of the governors of prisons. The House of Commons,

he felt confident, would demand a reform of the present
abuses in our prisons.—( Hear, hear.) They had
at length penetrated the walls of Somerset House,
and found out the black doings perletrated there by the Poor-
law Commissioners, and so it would be with regard to the
go►ernors of our prisons. He hoped that the Bight Hon.
Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home
Dqartment would not object to the appointment
of the Committee, which should not hold it, sittings, as had

been previously done, withintbe precincts of the prison, because
the inmates would, whilst in the presence of the governor, be
too much influenced from fear to state the whole truth. The

Hon. Member concluded by moving the appointment of a Select
Committee of the House to inquire into the abuses he had

Mr. WILLIAMS gladly seconded the resolution of the
Honourable Member for Finsbury. He felt confident that
a Committee of the House would be a much better tribunal

than any commission which they could appoint. As the House
was aware, scarcely any of their commissions had failed
to give satisfaction. With regard to the abuses, he
contended that it. was the duty of her Majesty's Go-
vernment to show a most anxious wish on their part to remedy
them by agreeing to a Committee of the House, with
a view of making a full inquiry into, and ulti-
mately removing them. Notwithstanding the unhealthiness
of the prison at Milbank, and the coarse and
meagre fare allowed to the inmates. That prison cost this
miuntry no less a sum Own a million pounds sterling per
annum. lie hoped, in conclusion. that the Government and
the House would agree to the motion.

The SPEAKER having put the question,
Sir GEORGE GREY said that the inquiries which hal
been made into the conduct of the governor of the prison in
question since the matter was last mooted in the House had
not been conspleted, and that was the reason why a com-
plete report had not been presented by him to the House.
lie admitted, with the Han. Member for Finsbury, that it
was most painful to see the unseemly disputes that were at '
present taking place between the Governor of Milbank and
the gentlemen who had been appointed to investigate into the
alleged abuses. He requested the House on the last occasi
when this question was before the House to suspend their
judgment until a full report of the whole case was before them,
and he had now to make the same request. He must certain!)-
admit that after the 'assertion of the Hon. Member,
to the effect that he could prove his charges, a
further inquiry had become indispensable.—(llear, hear.)
Under the general powers vested in the Crown with regard to
the inspection of prisons, he must advise the Crown to issue a
Commission for the purpose of making inquiry into the charges*
This would be a better course than appointing a Committee of
that House. This being the case, he would abstain frem re-
ferring to the charges made in the petition. He did not, how-
ever, think that the charges against the governor were Lorne
out, and he thought that the investigation, if the Commission
was granted, would fully prove the falsehood of the imputations.
He hoped that the result of the Commission would be equally
satisfactory to all parties.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE would now withdraw his motion, and
in doing so he hoped that the Commission would be conducted
in such a manner as to give fair play to all parties. If not,
he would feel it to be his duty to bring the matter again be-

tore th House.
BOARD OF ORDNANCE.

On the order of the day for going into Committee on the
Ordnance Estimates being read,
Mr. HUME moved the following resolution—" That a Se-
lect Committee be appointed, to inquire into the conduct of
the Board of Ordnance, in their refusing to inquire into al-
leged malversation of the public stores by officers et that depart-
ment, and into the cause and manner of dismissal of Daniel
Tonor, a pensioner for good service in the Artillery, from her
Majesty's service, without allowing the said D. Tonor to be pre-
sent at the Court of inquiry, or to be heard on his own defence.'
The only charge against Daniel Tonor was, that en coming
into the pay-office he was desired by one of the clerks to take
ff his hat. He refused, however, to do so, as not being in
accordance with usage to do so. This individual was afterwards
dismissed on this trumpery charge, which ought never to have
been made, as it is even now not customary to take off their hats
in that office. It appeared also that twenty-three pieces of
ordnance were stolen from the arsenal at Woolwich, and that
Board afterward refused to inquire into the malversation. al-
tin ugh Daniel Tonor offered such information as would tend
to the detection of the culprits. He complained of the depart-
ment not being conducted in a proper manner, and he thought
that a committee of inquiry was necessary. He would, there-
fore, move that a Committee be appointed to investigzte all
the circumstances. _ _ _ _

-- -
Colonel PEEL said the motion of the Hon. Member con-
tained two serious charges against the late Master Gauen] of
the Board of Ordnance. First, fur refusing to inquire into al-
leged malversatien of the public stores, and the dismissal of
Daniel Tonor without being heard in his own defence. As to
the first a Committee of inquiry was appointed b• the Board,
Lill the evidence was heard and examined into, and Mr. Jones,

for certain irregularities, was dismissed the service. Daniel
Tonor was heard as prosecutor, and towards the close of the
inquiry he was asked whether he had any other charges
against Mr. Jones, and the answer was, " Not at present,"—or
wether he had any charge against any other individuals in the
service, and he said, " None whatever." Till the present
time he (Colonel Peel) had not heard of this offer by Daniel
Tonor. As for the second charge, two letters were sent by
the clerk of the pay-office to the civil officer, com-
plaining of incivilities on the part of Daniel
lonor ; that he alone, when an order had been
made that all the labourers, in corning into the office, should
take off their hats, refused to comply with it. The case was
referred to the Board at Woolwich, and Lord Bloomfield, on
nearing it, ordered that Daniel Tonor should be imme-
diately suspended; and, as he (Colonel Peel) thought, pro-
perly so, when insubordination was manifested in the service.
He said he had stated the facts of the case, and would certainly
not object to the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry.
Colonel FOX said that he believed the late Board ILA acted
most properly in a case of such gross insult, and that the pre-
sent Board would have acted in precisely the same way.
Mr. HUME said that the Gallant Gentleman (Colonel
Peel) had made no answer or explanation about the refusal et
evidence offered by Toner in the case of the theft of the
pieces of ordnance.
Colonel PEEL said the Hon. Member asked why there was
no inquiry matte ; a letter was sent to the storekeeper, the
storekeeeper directed him to address his letters to the secretary
of the board, which was the only regular way.
Mr. HUME said he had a letter of the 29th January, re-
fusing to hear evidence on it.
Captain PECHELL said this motion reminded him of
several petitions presented by himself from a gentle-
man at Fort William, who had in vain requested
a Board, in order that he might substantiate some charges of
malversation by a certain barrack-master at Fort William. He
could not recal the particulars, but the Gallant Colonel had
it in his power to refer to the particulars, which had several
times appeared in petitions before the House, although be
( Captain Pechell) was sorry to say in vain. He hoped, how-
ever, that the present Board would act differently from their
predecessors.
Mr. HUME said, considering the late period of the session,
he would withdraw his motion for a Committee, but he was
sorry at the result of the present discussion.
Mr. HENLEY said the explanations which had been offered
were far from satisfactory.
Mr. WILLIAMS then moved, pursuant to notice, for a
copy of the circular (No. 58) issued by the Lords Commission-
ers of the Admiralty, and the accompanying memorandum,
dated the 13th day of November, 1830, which gives authority to
flog seamen and marines serving in her 'Majesty's ships and vessels
of war. A copy of the 9th charge, preferred by Lieutenant
Walker, commanding her Majesty's steamer Alban, before the
Court-martial assembled on the 12th day of May, 1834, to
try Captain Pigot, of her Majesty's ship Barham, and the war
rant for flogging a seaman of the Alban sent by Cap-
tain Pigot with an order to Lieutenant Walker, both
dated the 28th day of May, 1832 ; also of the minutes of the
evidence in support of the charge, anti for the defence. A copy
of the minutes of evidence given before the court-martial as-
sembled, on the 9th day of August, 1844, to try Lieutenant
W. H. Bridge, of her Majesty's steamer Cormorant,
and of the charge preferred against him, and the
judgment of the court thereon. And that an bumble
address be presented to her Majesty, that she will bo
graciously pleased to direct that the opinion of the law officers
of the Crown be obtained as to the legality of the sentence
passed in each of the cases of the courts-martial, and also as to
the legality of the proceedings of thee one on Lieut. Bridge.
Mr. WARD said, his object was to show what could be
done to remedy the grievance complained of. lie was most
anxious to give the subject his decided consideration. He
would, however, give no pledge as to what course should be
pursued.
The motion was then withdrawn.
On the SrEAKER leaving the chair
CHELSEA PENSIONERS.
Captain LAY ARD said, that he trusted it had not escaped
the recollection of the House that within a short period he had
presented four petitions from the out-pensioners of Chelsea
Hospital, praying the House to take into consideration that
which they stated they considered a great hardship, and in
which he fully agreed, viz., that five per cent. should be
stopped from their pensions, particularly as such stoppages
were not enforced, either from the marines or sailors; and wl:y
the soldier should be stopped, an .l the others not, to him was
unaccountable. Not that he (Captain Layarti ) wished the
five per cent. to be stopped from the marines and salors, fir
from it ; what he desired was, that no stoppage should be made
from any ; and, actuated by that desire, in the justice of which
all whom he had consulted upon the subject entirely agree !,
and which made him determine to bring the matter' under dis-
cussion. Now, of these petitions, two had been pi inted by
order of the House, and the petioners state that it is a heavy
loss to them, one-twentieth of their pensions gained in fighting
the battles of our common count'.:, and thereby in-
crease its immense power and riches, should he stopped ; tiles
likewise state that, adverting to the common principle
that now prevails in advancing or lending money, they conceive
five per cent monthly an exorbitant sum, and that the continu-
ance of it must be owing simply to the matter never having
been brought under the notice of your Honourable House.
Now the Act by which this deduction was authorised was the
27th of George 11., and was entitled " An Act for the
relict of th.. Out-pensioners of the Royal Hospital of
Chelsea." The Act was passed to alter the old system of
paying pensioners, of which nothing could be worse at
that time. A. D. 1754, the pensioners received their
pensions in the following manner (namely, the payment
of a year's pension only after the same had become due, and
which, as the Act recites, exposed them togreat hardships and
distresses, making them take money up for present subsistence
on credit of persons called money-lenders, on terms many times
oppressive and usurious. The Act then goes on to state, that
to prevent this bad system, the pensioners shall be paid six
months in advance. Now, in clause 7 it states that the Pay-
master of Chelsea Hospital shall, and may w ithhold, and deduct
one shilling in the pound from all moneys so paid to out-pen-
s sioners of Chelsea Hospital, and which moneys so deducted
shall be so applied in the manner which his Majesty, his heirs

and successors, shall, by warrant under his royal s;gn manual
direct. This system went on for some time, viz., paying six
months in advance ; then it was reduced to three, and about
two years ago, by a plan of Lord Hardinge, staff-officers were
appointed to pay the pensioner, and now they are only paid
one month in advance ; and which plan was, in his (Captain
Lavard's) opinion, a very good cue, and likely to be highly
beneficial to the country. But by the 3cl and 4th of Wil-
liam IV, an Act was passed in 1533, by which only twosand-
a-half per cent. is to be stopped from the new rate of pen-
sions, so that under the present system the old and hard-tried
Peninsular veterans had five per cent. stopped; and those who,
no doubt, were just as good soldiers, but could never have the
same severe trials, were to pay only two-and-a-half per cent.
Na doubt he should be told that the pensions of the latter were
smaller. Alas, that ouch was the case, was too true, and a dis-
grace to the nation it was that it should be so. Now, he must
recall to their minds, that within a few weeks, at the gracious
recommendation of her Majesty, they had voted pensions to
those gallant officers who had deserved so well of
their country, Lord Hardinge and Lord Gough, to
support the dignity which her Majesty had bestowed
upon them, for their gallant achievements, having raised them
to the temple of honour as a reward for their having taken so
high a station in the temple of fame. Now, for his (Captain
Lavard's) part, he could not suppose that either five or two-
and-a-half per cent. would, or ought to be, stopped from the
pensions of those gallant leaders. And if such was the case,
how could the Parliament think of any lower allowing this
stoppage to he made from their no less worthy and gallant com-
panions in arms. Now, he felt that the great enemy he had
to contend with was the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer ; but he trusted that, upon this occa-
sion, he would let his love of justice overcome his love of eco-
nomy ; and he thought, when he informed the Right Hon.
Gentleman that the Hon. Member for Montrose was to second
this resolution, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would
feel that it was an act of justice which no economical feeling
ouglit to counteract. Shall it be said that those who can say
to their children, or the'r grandchildren, " I fought with
Hardinge at Albuera ; I was at the storming of Burdpore
with Lord Combermere ; I helped to take the eagle at Barossa
with Gough ; I fought with Napier in India ; I formed part
of that force at Waterloo under Wellington whose square.
were invulnerable, and whose advance in line was invincible"—
shall these men. when

" They shoulder their crutch,
And show how fields were won"—

shall these men end their narrative by stating, " We petitioned
the British House of Commons—we petitioned the representa-
tives of the people—no longer to allow the paltry deduction of
five per eerie from our pensions, and our prayers were un-
heeded? He (Captain Layard) called u ,on the protectional
party, who had talked so much of standing to their colours and
nailing them to the mast, to remember that the
standard of their country had been carried untarnished, by
the agrieuhural labourer, to honour and to glory. He
reminded the manufacturers that many of those who had been
operatives heel, by their gallant hearing as soldiers, opened new
marts in the uttermost gaits of the world. He called upon all
in that House to remember upon what a pinnacle of glory this
country had been placed by the army, and to remember how
poorly that army had been requited. The Right Hon. Baro-
net the late Prime Minister had, upon a former occasion, when
bringing forward the pensions of Lord Harcliriv, and Lord
Gough, read to them from Nspier'a " Hiseiry of the Peninsu-
lar War"— that brilliant history of brilliant expinite—the ac-
count of the heroic and bloody fight at Albuera, whereby Har-
dingo's energy hail been achieved. Trusting the House
would allow him to follow the late Prime Minister's example,
he would read an extract from that History. Napier says tbat
the British infantry soldier is more robust than the soldier of
any other nation which can scarcely be doubted by those who,
in 1815, observed his powerful frame distinguished amidst the
united armies of Europe ; and notwithstanding his habitual ex-
cess in drinking, he sustained fatigue and wet, and the ex-
tremes of cold and heat, with incredible vigour. When com-
pletely disciplined (and three years are required to accomplish
this), his port is lofty and his movements free—the whole
world cannot produce a nobler specimen of military bearing.
Nor isehe mind unworthy of the outward man : he does not
indeed possess that presumption and vivacity which would lead
him to dictate ti his commander, or even to censure real
errors, alt.houeh he may perceive them ; but he is quick to com-
prehend his orders, full of resources under difficulties, calm and
resolute in danger, and more than usually obedient and careful
of his officers in moments of imminent peril. It has been asserted
that his undeniable firmness in battle is the result of a phlegmatic
constitution, uninspired by moral feeling; never was a more
stupid calumny uttered. Napoleon's troops fought in bright
fields, where every helmet caught some beams of glory. But
the British soldier conquered under the cold shade of aris-
tocracy. No honours awaited his daring, no dispatch gave
his name to the applause of his countrymen ; his life of danger
and hardship was uncheered by hope, his death unnoticed.
Did his heart sink therefore? Did he not endure with sur-
prising fortitude the sorest of ills, sustain the most terrible
assaults in battle unmoved, overthrowing with incredible energy
every opponent, and at all times prove that while no physical
military qualification was wanting, the font of honour was also
full and fresh within him? The result of a hundred battles,
and the united testimony of impartial writers of different
nations, have given the first place amongst the European
Infantry to the British. Such was the description of those
men (and could any one deny the truth of that description for
whom he stood the humble advocate?), and he trusted and
believed that neither the House nor the country would or could
refuse their petition. Who could say at what moment the
,efety of this country might depend upon the pensioners?
1 hey were the only force which you could call together in case
of any sudden emergency, for of regular troops you had very
few you could lay your hand upon—the colonies taking up
so large a proportion, while the pensioners consisted of 73,500,
and of these are 25,001) available men, fit to do good service,
and 25,000 more tit for garrison duty ; and these alone showed
the advantage of seeing generously and kindly ; for it it had
not been for the pensions, by some so much abused, where could
you have such a force to ell out in a moment, and available?
The last sentence of that brilliant history, from which he had
before quoted, ends with this touching sentence :—" Thus the
war terminated, and with it all remembrance of the veteran's
services." Were they, the House of Commons, prepared to
let such a sentence stand against them to all time ? Were
they prepared to have it go forth that they refused the
petition of those men whose militia-se achievements had
been the wonder and the admiration of the world? Ile felt
that should the Right Hon. Secretary-at-War oppose this re.
solution, he would be acting against. Li; own generous nature.
and the anxious desire he had always personally evinced to
tieeefit the soldier. But he trusted the House would feel,
whatever was the course taken by the Government, that this
petition ought to be granted, lie felt he had done his duty in
giving an opportunity of doing by these gallant men a justice,
however tardy ; a reward, however irefficient. He should end
by calling upon them
To pity the sorrows of each brave old man.
Whose shattered frame can carry arms no more,
Whose life soon der hailing to the shortest span ;
Petition grant, and Heaven will bless your store.
He, therefore, begged to move, that in the opinion of this
House, the pensions paid to non-commissioned officers and
privates of the army should be paid without any fee or deduc-
t ion whatsoever.
air. HUME said he agreed to the motion, and thought that
if there were ally reductions of this description, it should at
all events come as well from the pockets of the wealthy as the
poor pensioner.
Ti., CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER said that
some misapprehension seemed to exist en the subject. 'f he mea-
sure which the Hon. Gentleman proposed to alter was introduced
at a time when it was the greatest boon to the soldier. At
the time it was brought f rward all persons were paid at the
eret of the year. He assured the H.sre Gentleman that the sub-
ject should receive the consideration of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, but it was impossible far him to go further than this de-
claration.
Captain LAYARD said, that under these circumstances, be
would withdraw his motion.
After a few words from Mr. P. HOWARD, the motion was
withdrawn.