The Sun.
London, England, 1848-04-11 00:00:00

would prove, as he had said, ineffectual.—(Cries
of " No, no.") He had a duty to perform,
and he should perform it. In 1843, before
he joined the Repeal Association, he felt it his duty to
make one last appeal to the House for what was then
termed justice to Ireland—namely, a series of measures
which were calculated to give satisfaction to the
Irish people consistently, at the same time, with the
maintenance of the union between the two countries.
The House refused that appeal. They had now
an opportunity of meeting that demand by
granting a separate Legislature—Queen, Lords, and
Commons for Ireland. I am here to tell you, said the Hon.
Gentleman with marked emphasis, that if you do not
concede the rights for which the people of Ireland ask,
you will have, in the course of the present year, a
republic established in Ireland.—(Great surprise, and
cries of " Oh, oh," and "Order.") Unlike all the Govern-
ments of Europe, the liberal Government of England
meet the just demands of a country intimately connected
with this—by coercion and prosecution—(Cheers)
—and this, too, at a moment when;the Foreign Minister
was countenancing the efforts of every other people
to obtain their freedom. He asked for no other example
than that of Sicilly, which presented a parallel to Ireland.
And what had the Noble Lord said, but that Sicilly was
justified in what she had done? Charges had been
brought against him, and those with whom he acted in
his absence; he was there to answer them on their behalf
and on his own—on behalf of his companions in the
glorious struggle now going on.—(Roars of laughter.)
He was proud to say that their motives were disinter-
ested.—(Cheers.) Now, with respect to himself, he had
been called traitor.—(lmmense and continued cheering.)
He was not disloyal to the Queen, but he was disloyal
to that House; and if that was treason he was guilty of
the offence. As long as he lived it should
be his study to overthrow the dominion of
this House in Ireland. He unhesitatingly avowed that
to be his intention. (The Attorney- General here turned
towards Sir G. Grey and Lord John Russell, and
entered into animated conversation with them connected
apparently with the words of the Hon. Gentleman.)
With respect to himself he might undertake to say
that no man in Ireland bore a higher public cha-
racter than he did.—(Cheers and laughter.) He
did not deny that there were many entitled to
far greater respect, but he believed he was
justified in making the statement he had ; but since his
election for Limerick he had never any but sincere
votes. He challenged any man to state the con-
trary ; and now that he was to be arraigned as a
criminal, he declared to that House that he would
glory to receive the most ignominious death that could
be inflicted upon him rather than see his country sub-
jected to the treatment he had seen during the last thirty
years of his life. He had not gone to France
to seek aid; but if he had wished, he believed he should
have come back with a tolerably large muster of troops.
—(Laughter.) He only wished they had been in
France when he was there.—(Laughter.) No, the
freedom of Ireland must be won by the courage of her
own sons—by Irish courage. It was not his intention to
place his country under the protection of foreign bayonets.
He went to France, at the request of a large body of his
countrymen, as their delegate, to congratulate the Pro-
visional Government upon the recent overthrow of a
Throne which had long forfeited all claim to the respect
of the people. He went there for the purpose of offer-
ing the Provisional Government the congratulations
of the people of Ireland for having set an example
to Europe which the world had already seen
with what effect.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He
had no hesitation in declaring that a great amount of
sympathy for the people of Ireland prevailed in France,
and it should be the business of those with whom he,was
about to act to encourage that sympathy to the utmost
degree, but that sympathy was not confined
to France ; for it extended itself to every nation
and to every enlightened statesman and citizen in
Europa. Every enlightened man iu the civilised world
looked upon Ireland as England looked upon Poland.
Every enlightened man in Europe looked upon the con-
dition of England, in reference to Ireland, as analogous
to that of Russia in reference to Poland.—(Hear, hear.)
Could the House wonder, then, that Ireland
excited so much sympathy in the minds of free and
enlightened individuals.—(Year, hear.) He was happy
to think that a very large amount of sympathy was
evinced towards Ireland by the people of this country,
and he was not ashamed to declare, although he did not
agree with many of the views of the Honourable
Member for Nottingham, that it gave him great
satisfaction that the majority of the Chartist
body felt for the sufferings, and were most anxious to
aid the cause of the people of Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) The Chartists, line Ireland, felt that they
had been unjustly dealt with by the Parliament of
this country, and he was not at all surprised of their
availing themselves of a time when Government was
involved with Ireland to press their complaints upon
that House.—(Hear, hear.) But whether their sym-
pathy resulted from policy, or from their generous
feelings, he freely accepted it on the part of Ireland.—
(Hear, hear.) Now he owned—whether the senti-
ment be considered legal or not he did not know—that
he had been instrumental in asking his country to
arm.—(Sensation, and cries of " Order, order.") He con-
ceived that under the present circumstances of all coun-
tries of Europe, it was the duty of every man to obtain
possession of arms.—(Oh, oh.) There was scarcely a
nation in Europe which did not make it part of its duty
to instruct its citizens in the practice of arms, and he con-
ceived it to be the peculiar duty of the people of Ireland
to obtain arms, when it was openly announced by the
Government that they intended to crush them, not by
arguments, but with the aid of brute force.—(Laughter.)
Let him remind the lion. Gentleman of what
took place in 1732. It was no crime then for
them thus to arm for the protection of their own
liberty, and why, let him ask, should
they not be permitted to do so now ? Was it moreover
not necessary that they should be in possession of arms
to enable them to preserve order?—(Laughter.) The
intentions, however, of the people of Ireland were mis-
understood, and in order to convince the House of this
ho would just read the last resolution come to by
those with whom he acted.—(Hear, hear.) The
resolution was to the effect that the National Repeal
Association of Ireland denounced as gross calumny the
vituperation which had been thrown upon them by the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government, as the
object of the association was only to procure a repara-
tion from tke English Parliament, and they
thereby declared that they were determined to
obtain their national independence, if possible,
without civil war.—(Laughter.) A national coeincil of
300 representatives was about to assemble in Dublin for
the purpose of carrying out the spirit of these resolu-
tions, and he would recommend the Noble Lord to put
himself in communication with that body as soon as possi-
ble. The Government relied upon what ? Why upon the
assistance of spies.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
has been asked by the Honourable Member for Limerick
a question upon the subject of manufacturing pikes.
—(flear.) Were the Government, he would ask, serious
in thinking that they could govern Ireland by a system cf
hear.) The Noble Lord relied
Ireland, because if he had a fair
ucl ep toenc tpi va ee
kpeodl cjeu. —r
e(alliena
one he could not get a verdict.—(A laugh.) The Noble
Lord little knew the spirit that was abroad in Ireland if
he thought he could put down the exertions of the Irish
people for their rights by sending men to prison for en-
deavouring to serve their country.—(Hear, hear.) Did
he not know that by the adoption of such a course he
would increase the number of converts to the cause of
the people, and against the Government? It was true
that by some means or other 280,000 persons had been
induced to place a sort of qualified reliance on the Go-
vernment, but such was the state of things in Ireland at
the present moment, that the Government would be in a
great difficulty to savo themselves even by their
bayonets.—(hear, hear, and laughter.) He believed
that the principal :nobles in Ireland who supported the
Government of the Noble Lord would nut get a
single relation or friend of theirs to support
their views. If these matters were to be
settled by resort to the most extreme measures,
which he trusted would never be the case, he felt no
no doubt that the Irish gentry, to a man, would protect
themselves and their property, and care little what
became of the Government.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.")
Could it be supposed that the Irish people
could have much affection for a Government
that was about to deprive them of their inheritance
and their means of subsistence?—(Hear, hear.) The
Government relied upon the Orangemen and the police
force of Ireland. He believed that in doing so they
would find themselves in the wrong, for it was his firm be-
lief that the greater portion of the Orangemen in Ireland
were in favour of the Irish Confederation.—(Cries
of " Oh, oh.") The Government next relied upon the
army—the army at the present moment in Ireland was
but an insignificant part of the whole popula-
tion of that country; and, under these circumstances
was it to be supposed, if they came to a struggle, that
30,000 men would or could offer much opposition to the
attempt of the Irish people for freedom? It was utterly
impossible for the cavalry to act in Ireland, and there
could be no just reliance placed on the military. there.
He believed they could not rely upon the army in Ire-
land.—(Oh, oh !) If there were to be a struggle to-
morrow, he believed that the army would refuse to act
against the people in Ireland.—(Loud cries of " Oh,
oh !") The object of my argument, said the
Honourable Member, has been this :—I need not
say that I treat with the most utter disdain the attempts
of the Government to put me down by their prosecution.
—(Laughter.) My object has been this, to show that
if ever it is possible for these two great countries to come
into collision the result would be extremely uncertain,
uponter.) thef
England
o go
ltahoedr
and could not be otherwise than disastrous. If England
were to fail she would henceforth stand alone; and it
may not be unadvisable to consider what would be the
condition of England with an independent republic
upon one side and au independent republic
wanoudldlamuagkhe-
a des • svesirdeetoofbe her.—(" hear,"
sh,letharec
elation, they would desolate the country which you
have for a long •
period made discontented, and you are
disgraced in the eyes mankind. Now, under
those of all
those circum t
fore it is s an"; I do implore the House, be-
words " too late," late—before those ominous
which have such porten
tious meaning
in other countries—has struck the
knell of English
power in Ireland—l do beg of the Crown
to reflect and concede
t to the people of Ireland their
national
rights,
possess, and which erights which they are resolved to
by every title human and divine they
are entitled to claim. I have spoken hitherto without
reserve, and as I did
so at the beginning I shall not
fail to do so at the end.
(Laughter.) When the Noble
Lord tells me that am a traitor to the Crown, I not
only repel the charge but retort it.—(Laughter.) I say
that if in;the present
regard to his own position of Europe he attempts, in
fellow-countrymen of this country,
to crush all the efforts
upon the part of the democracy
of this country, to obtain
cracies of other coun those rigk is which the demo-
tries are obtaining—if with respect
1
to my country refuses their demands for 661..
government —if he plays towards this country

the part of Guizot or Metterni, 2h in their
respective countries, then I tell him that it is not
me and mine, but ho and his colleagues, it ho are traitors
to the country. The Hon. Member rest tmed his seat
amid marks of dissatisfaction from all parts of the House.
Sir G. GREY, who upon rising, was lo udly cheered,
said—Sir,"after the long absence of the Hui. Gentleman
from his place—(Cheers)—and now rising in his place
upon the moment that the second reading of the Bill is
now before the House, I certainly entertained some
hope, albeit a faint one, that he had risen to disavow
with indignation—(Cheers)—that indignation which all
loyal subjects of this realm must feel at the imputations
which have been cast upon his loyalty--(Cheers)—not
only in that House, but by every newspaper circulated
throughout this realm for some weeks past, and that he
would, with that fervid eloquence which characterises
his harangues elsewhere, if not in. this House—
(Cheers and laugh ter)—disavow those sentiments and
profess that, by virtue, if of no better feelir,:s, of that
oath of allegiance—(Tremendous cheering)— which the
Hon. Member has repeatedly taken—(Renewed cheer-
ing)—to the Sovereign of these realms, that
he cast off the imputations which have been so
frequently cast upon his name.—(Loud cheers.) What,
then, was my astonishment, nay, what were my feel-
ings of pain and regret—feelings shared, I will
venture to say, by every Honourable Member in
this House—(Tremendous cheering)—when, with
the miserable pretence of still professing loyalty,
a faint shadow of loyalty to his Sovereign, not without
that boldness and daring—(Loud cheers)—which has
characterised his speeches elsewhere, repeating the sen-
timents which he has elsewhere uttered, and charging
my Noble Friend, in defending the constitution of the
country, with charges similar to those made against
himself, viz., that of treason.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
The Hon. Member said that in his absence he had been
called a traitor, perhaps the Hon. Member will allow
me to sav, that I am not in the least degree responsible
for the absence of the Hon. Member.—(Cheers.) The
cause of that absence no doubt the Honourable
Member is the best able to explain.—(Laughter.)
I did not, however, call the Hon. Member a traitor; this,
however, I did—l read to the House a portion of the
report of the Irish Cenfederation, at which an asso-
ciate of the Hon. Member, Mr. Duffy said in his
speech that he had received a message from that
Honourable Member who was then in Paris,
and rejecting that discouraging repulse which the Hon.
Gentleman had received from M. Lamartine—(Loud
cheers)—and which I must say reflected the greatest
credit upon him—in which he refused to encourage those
designs, lee they seditious, traitorous, or loyal, as the
Hon. Member pretends to assure the House—and stated
that he should in so doing be violating the law of nations
and giving a good cause of war to England.—(Cheers.)
Does the Hon. Gentleman deny the statement which
was made by Mr. Duffy at the Irish Confederation, and
which had the effect of setting aside altogether the
answer of M. Lamartino to the Irish deputation?—
(Hear, hear.) That statement was to the effect that

the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. O'Brien) was informed by a
club in Paris that the French people felt deeply moved
at the grievances of the Irish, and were able, should
they require assistance, to send 50,000 of their bravest
citizens to aid them in obtaining their rights.—(Hear.)
Mr. O'BRIEN was understood to request the Right
Hon. Baronet to read the next paragraph.
Sir G. GREY.—The next passage of the reply to
which he referred stated that Mr. O'Brien offered his
sincere thanks on the part of Ireland for that offer.—
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," and cheers.) Is the Hon.
Gentleman now satisfied?—(Laughter and cheers.)
The next passage was to the effect that Ireland
would conquer by the energy of her own chil-
dren. That meant that, although they could them-
selves institute a successful insurrection, still, if the
worst should happen of the struggle, France had pro-
mised, as Mr. Duffy had said, in contradiction of M.
Lamartine's reply, the assistance of 50,000 Frenchmen.
—(Cheers.) I hoped the Hon. Gentleman would have
disavowed the intention of seducing the soldiers and
police from their dutyi to the constitution with the view
of their joining the mob.—(Hear, hear.) I said I did
not call the Hon. Gentleman a traitor.—(Hear, hear.)
I read the statement of Mr. Duffy, and because it con-
tained the sentiment to which I have alluded, he said I
called him a traitor.—(Cheers.) The House drew the
inference from it, and I find that inference given in the
unmistakable manner in which the words of the
Honourable Gentleman were received when he
said he had been called a traitor.—(Great cheering.)
The Honourable Gentleman said that the effect of this
measure would be to alienate the Orangemen from sup-
porting the Government, but I will say that a very large
portion of the population of Ireland, including all
creeds and persuasions, is determined to support the
present constitution of the United Kingdom, and I am
moreover sure that they will indignantly deny the right
of the Honourable Gentleman to expound their
feelings to this House.—(Loud cheers.) He also
said that the body, of which he constituted a
part in Ireland, was supported to a man by the Chartists
of this country. Now, I disbelieve entirely that asser-
tion, for it has been lately stated in this House by a
leader of the Chartists that they are firmly attached to
the monarchy of this country.—(Hear, hear, and
cheers.) I believe the Hon. Gentleman will find him-
self miserably deceived if he thinks that he will
obtain any assistance from foreign conntries.
--(Loud cheers.) Ireland, England, and Scotland
would rise in indignation against the dictation of the

Hon. Gentlemen, and against the exposition which he
pretends to give of the feelings of his own country.—
(Cheers.) Far be it from me to speak of the tone of
the Hon. Gentleman, and of the accusation which he has
made against the Government with respect to their in-
tintions to Ireland, for it is their great desire to

make it rich, happy, and prosperous, and to give
it those constitutional rights which every person in
the kingdom enjoys.—(Cheers.) We want the real
union of all men, and the reasons for this Bill will, to a

certain extent, be found in the dangerous and mischievous
language and threats which have been resorted to ; and
in the Bill rests not only the security of the Crown
and tho Government, but the true interests of the
great body of the people.—(Great cheering.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said, as he had been alluded to,

he rose simply to state that he had used the sentiments

enunciated by the Hon. Member both within and without
that House. He said that the voice of the people was
greater than that of the Crown ; but, having taken the
oath of allegiance, he was prepared to defend the
Crown, not only against its enemies, but against
the machinations of her Majesty's Ministers, if neces-
sary. The Right Honourable Baronet (Sir G. Grey)
had alluded to the allegiance of Orangemen, and to the
loyalty of the troops and police, and said they were
sufficient for the defence of the country, meaning
thereby to imply that the words used by him—
" ridiculous and foolish "—were levelled agains.
those who favoured the repeal of the Union
Ile would ask the descendant of Lord William Russell
it it became him to ferret out old Acts of Par-
liament, in order to,fetter the sentiments of the paople?
To show that his sentiments had been entertained by
others, he might cite the speeches of the Hon. Baronet
the Member for llarwich (Sir J. C. Hoithouse), and ask
if anything could go further than the sentiments that
Hon. Baronet had enunciated? But they were success-
ful—they led to the passing of the Reform Bill, though
that measure had proved destructive to tens of thousands
of the people of Ireland. They had been trying to do
something for forty-eight years, but they had
faileof the Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Oldham (Mr. W. J.
.Fox), that the Government
thed. speech Ihe) . had tried too long. He had thought
on
would have paused before they proceeded further with
the Bill. Every man who wrote advisedly would be
liable to transportation. Why, if this were an ex post facto
law, the I
to other Baronet
sideo
ofthe himself
A t
lmight,ant c.
Thyperhaps,
be sent
United States had sent over 1,000,000 of dollars to
aid the Irish in their struggles. Now, he had
ti
refused to be one of a deputation to France, because he
thought with Shakespere, that "if England cannot
Right
te Lon.
keep the dog from her own door, that she had better be
worried." If a foreign army came to invade this
country, he would risk his life in resisting it ; let them
rely upon the mind and will of the people of England
and Ireland. Why, but for the Right Honourable
Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) hundreds of th,usands
would have died of famine in Ireland. He had at-
tended the demonstration to-day, and, thank God ! it
had passed off peaceably.—(Laughter.) Honourable
Gentlemen laughed. Ile repeated that he rejoiced
it had passed off peaceably.—k Cries of " Hear, hear.")
If the Right Hon. Baronet wished to destroy the
expression of the free opinion of the people he would
induce them, as did a portion of the former Convention,
to go about the 1 country establishing clubs. Many
of the former Convention were mere rabble, who only
joined it to get paid ; and when they went into the
country promoting the formation of clubs, he followed
them in the dead of winter at his own expense, attacked
them wherever they went, and succeeded in driving
them out of Scotland. He hated secresy, and
had never written a private political letter in his
lif.e.—(llear, hear.) And now they intended to
pass a Bill to enable them to prosecute the Hon. Gentle.
man the Member fcr Limerick (Mr. S. O'Brien), but
they might depend, if they did so, that their triumph
would be weakness they would weaken the law,
and bring the Government into contempt. Until
they bad a really constitutional opposition in the
House, they might depend upon it they would con-
tinue to experience similar daring from the Government
benches. The Bill was an infraction upon the right of
the subject. Many voted by courtesy for the introduc-
tion of the Bill who did not intend to sup-
port it in its future stages.—(Hear.) Now, he was
made of "sterner stuff," and therefore he begged to
move that the Bill be read a second time this day six
months.

Mr. G. THOMPSON seconded the motion. He
wished to express his delight that the proceedings of the
day had gone off with order and good feeling.—(hear.)
He was glad to find that they sat in peace and qu,,Aness.
Do not let the House imagine that this peace resulted
from fear on the part of the people. No, it was from
their conviction that great political changes could only
be effected in this country by the force of argument.
He had mingled amongst working men for the last
.20
years, and while be had never shrunk from censuring
when he thought they were in the wrong, he cordially
sympathised with them when he believed they were in
the right.—(Hear, hear.) He came now to the Bill
before the House. In the first place, he objected to the
haste with which this Bill had been introduced. A more
introduced
into Bill than this had not been
into that House during the last century, and
ho would warn the House not to make
.that felony
which universal humanity did not characterise as such.
--(Hear, hear.) But let them pass the Bill, with its
" gagging clause," and he would answer for it they
would not find their prisons large enough to hold nor
ship sufficiently numerous to transport !dons
whom it would make.--(Cries of " Hear, hear.") So
far 115 the other parte of the Dill were concerned, he did

not object to them; but in Heaven's name don't attempt
to make it felony for a man to speak his thoughts openly
and without disguise. Pass it, however, and what
would be the result? Why, they would make hundreds
of thousands of felons, who would, when they were
dragged through the streets, be greeted with the
cries that met the ears of ILord William Russell while
being conveyed to the scaffold, namely, " There goes
Liberty and Virtue side by side."—(Hear, hear.) But
let Government persevere with this Bill as it stood, he
would oppose it in every stage.
Sir B. HALL said, that after he had listened to the
discursive speech of the Hon. Member, he was surprised
to find he was not going to vote for the second reading.
The Hon. Member had only objected to a few words in
the Bill, which might be discussed in Committee. For
his own part, he should have deemed the Government to
have neglected its duty had not Ministers come down
and put a stop to sedition and treason by proposing such
a measure. The speeches of the Hon. Member for Not-
tingham in that House were loyal, and not subversive
of the institutions of the country; but he regretted to
say that his writings were not of that character. In the
Northern Star of some days ago he found a letter signed
by the Hon. Member, two columns and a half long,
and containing an expression which he should be glad
to hear the Hon. Member explain. The Hon. Member,
talking of the Crown, said, " There is behind the Throne
a power greater than the Crown, and let them put the
Pope, the devil, or the Pretender on the throne, he
cared not." The Hon. Member cried " Hear." It he
(Sir B. Hall) had taken an erroneous view of his
words, he should be glad to be corrected. But the only
construction he could put upon them was, that the Hon.
Member was quite indifferent who was on the throne,
inasmuch as he said it was alike to him whether the
Nionarch was the Pope or the devil.—(Hear and
laughter.) Representing as he did 350,000 of the inha-
bitants of the metropolis, it had been his lot to witness
the conduct of all classes during the late crisis, and he
must bear a willing testimony to the loyalty and desire
to promote order of all, from the Peer down to the
poorest labourer.

Mr. F. 0 CONNOR said that he was not only ready
to avow having written the passages which the Hon.
Member had quoted, but also to say that he did not
consider them to be other than in perfect accordance
with the expressions used by him in that House.
Mr. HUME would not occupy the House with dis-
putes as to the speeches or writings of individuals. They
had had quite enough of such discussions. There were
parts of the Bill that he cordially approved of. All he
wished to ask was, whether the Noble Lord would abate
five words of it which he objected to? He looked upon
the change of the punishment of death, proposed by the
Bill in cases of felony by high treason, to be an improve-
ment. But the five words which he objected to would,
if retained, be likely to subject brave and honest men
to the punishment of felony. Those words were " by open
and advised speaking." If the Noble Lord would agree
to withdraw those words, there could be no objection
to the'Bill. If otherwise, he should oppose it. Whilst
they were improving legislation, by the diminution of
the number of punishable political crimes, the measure
before the House went directly to increase them. If
he, sitting at his table, were advisedly to utter opinions
at variance with the law he would be liable to transpor-
fition, under the present Bill. He recollected that Mr.
Muir had been transported, in 1796, on a similar charge,
which, by the Scotch law of sedition, was proved upon
him by his WORIall servant. The practice of that day
and the law under which the convictions of Muir and
the other Scotch Reformers were procured were de-
nounced by Lord Holland as infamous, and in fact that
particular offence styled leasing making was subse-
quently abolished and erased from the statute-book.
But the present Bill would revive that offence unless
the words he pointed out were omitted. It was always
unwise to pass a severe law on an emergency.
If the Noble Lord had received secret infor-
mation on which he could rely that danger was to be
apprehended, let him ask for a Bill for a few months,
but he would venture to say, that the Crown and
property would be more secure under the present law
than under any that the Noble Lord could devise.
Secret societies would be the result of the proposed
Bill, and, so would espionage, as had formerly been
the case, whereby the annals of the kingdom were
stained. If the Bill passed as it at present stood, the
country would be subject to the same perils that had
menaced foreign countries, and from the same causes.
In France it was the suppression of truth and of public
opinion that had sprung the mine which blew the Go-
vernment there to atoms. Let the Ministers beware
The present Bill :was a step in the same direction that
was followed by the French Government. But at the
same time he must say that he instituted no comparison
between the middle classes of England and of France,
and he regretted to see a Bill introduced by which a
doubt was thrown over the honesty and loyalty of the
middle classes. Tho Government and the aristocracy
would be lost if the middle classes did not stand by
them, and he hoped to see the latter insist upon
bringing forward measures to ameliorate the con-
dition of the lower orders. He did emphatically say
that the present was not the time to bring forward
such a Bill. The manifestation of that day ought to prove
sufficient to induce the Government to withdraw the
Bill. At the same time, he did not think there ought
to be a National Convention sitting. He was anxious
to give the labouring classes a right to vote, and at the
same time to raise the standard of their intellectual at-
tainments. He had often said that he would allow a
man to say what he liked, provided he kept his hands
off.—(Laughter.) He did not think that Government
would gain in public opinion by this attempt to
strengthen the law. They should trust the people of
England, and they would be loyal; but, restrain their
expression of opinion, gag them, and he must coufess
that he for one dreaded the consequences that might
ensue. The main offence created by this Bill was the
attempt to overawe Parliament. Why, how had the
Reform Bill been obtained? Was it not by overawing
Parliament?—(Hear.) Without continually overawing,
plaguing, and teasing Parliament, nothing was ever ob-
tained for the people. If the Noble Lord and the Go-
vernment were afraid of the Convention, why not use the
law as it stood? By the 39th Geo. 111. it might be
put down at once, and why not use that law?—(dear,
hear.) The same law existed in England, Scotland,
and Ireland. He thought that Government had been
badly advised, and that the Police Commissioners had
acted most improperly in appealing to an Act so obsolete
and tyrannical as the 13 Charles 11. If that Act was to
be revived, the people of England should know what
they had to expect. In Blackstone, volume 1.,
page 142, the Act was described as providing " That no
petition to the King, or either House of Parliament, for
any alteration in Church or State, shall be signed by
above twenty persons, unless the matter thereof be ap-
proved by three justices of the peace, or the major part
of the grand jury in the country ; and in London by the
Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council ; nor
shall any petition be presented by more than ten persons
at a time. Was it possible that Government could
Theymean
to revive such a law as that ?—(Hear, hear.)
might contend it was law, but he contended it was not,
being repealed with other ;arbitrary laws by the Bill of
Rights. That was the opinion of Mr. Dunning as op-
posed to Lord Mansfield. The Act further provided
that any,infringement of its provisions was to be visited
by a penalty of 1001. and three months' imprisonment
for each offence. Why, he had himself recently pre-
sented a petition, signed by 430 persons, and had, of
course, brought himself within the operation of the Act.
He trusted that,Government would not insist on perpe-
tuating so absurd and despotic a piece of legislation.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that his Hon.
Friend the Member for Montrose must have misunder-
stood the intention of the Bill. He was sorry that thers
should be on the part of his Hon. Friend, and the Hon.
Member for the Tower Hamlets any departure from the
general feeling of the House, which was to secure the
safety of the country without any injury to the consti-
tution. The Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets
complained that ten new felonies wonld be created by
the Bill, and his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose
deprecated it as an invasion of the right of petition.
But the Bill did not interfere with the legitimate right of
petition or of discussion, nor would it touch the case of
persons who might in moments of eloquence be induced
to use words which their sober reason would regret. The
Bill, with the exception of four words, was identical with
the 57th George 111. The first part was not touched.
The additional clause was, " Who shall intend to levy
war against her Majesty fur the purpose of compelling
her, by force, to change her measures or coun-
cils, or for the purpose of military force or
constraint on, or intimidating, or overawing, her Go-
vernment." The mode by which such intention
was to be expressed, was, " By writing, or open and ad-
vised speaking." Therefore, no speaking would come
within the meaning of the Act, unless it should, in the
opinion of a jury, be uttered for the purpose of levying
war, or of compelling that House, by force, to take
measures which it would not otherwise adopt.—(i!ear,
hear.) It was to be observed that, under the present
law such offence would be treason, but he admitted that
the offence was rather difficult of proof. The difficulty
of obtaining an accurate report of words spoken would
operate in the present Bill, but that, he believed, would
be a species of protection to the persons accused.—(Oh,
oh.) Besides, the offence must be proved to the satis-
faction of a common jury, and he did not think that
such a jury would be got to convict unless the proof
were of a most satisfactory character. He admitted that
" open and advised" were rather vague expressions.—
(Hear, hear.) If a man, addressing a public meeting,
n
eee
said, " You ought to go down in a bodydtonethink a
the
t
of Commons with your petition," 7,4,1 -
jury would convict; but if he said, You will never ob-
tain redress unless you organize a force and a con-
spiracy," and if he repeated such advice after due
warning, then in his (the Solicitor-General's) opinion,
that would be open and advised speaking, and would
conviction from a jury. He maintained that
insure a
the
words
objected to would never insure a conviction
except in cases where the offence was so manifest as to
leave no possible doubt on the mind as to its character.
He could not but think that great advantage would
result from changing such offences from treason into
felony. There was a romance and a fancied dignity
about treason which did not attach to felony. To seek
distinction was a weakness of human nature, and with
every respect for the sincerity of the Hon. Member for
Limerick, he did believe that personal notoriety was one
of his principal motives for the course he was at present
pursuing.—(Loud cheers.) No more striking proof of
this could be found than in the fact that when
he and his associates were held to bail in a' sum of
2001. to answer a charge of sedition, they were
quite offended, and exclaimed, " We meant it to
be treason."—(A laugh.) It would not be a less
serious offence as sedition, it would merely be one of
a
more vulgar description.—(Hear.) Ooune.
Member
with
respect to the 13th Charles IL The H
Montrose had asked whether the prohibiting the g presen-
tation of a petition signed by 20 persons
would be eon.
tinned ; but he might its well ask whether the amount
of prerogative then enjoyed by the Sovereign was to be
preserved ? Ile had only to repeat that the Bill had

only reference to " open and advised speaking," with a
tendency to induce persons to levy war, to compel the
Sovereign or the Legislature to change or abandon
measures which they might think conducive to the wel-
fare and happiness of the country.
Mr. HUME asked whether "open and advised speak-
ing" was felony under the present law ?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—It is treason.
Mr. HUME—Under what Act?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Open and advised
speaking, accompanied by overt acts, is treason under
the present law.

Sir R. INGLIS supported the Bill. He thought it
was high time that the treasonable proceedings which
had been going on for some time should be put a stop
to.—(Hear, hear.) They would not have been so long
permitted in any other country, or underithe most Bern!):
lican Government in the world.—(Hear, hear.) His
lion. Friend the Member for Montrose had said that he
would allow a man to say what he liked provided he
kept his hands off. He asked his Hon. Friend would
he remain quiet while two men consulted how he might
easiest be knocked down ? His Hon. Friend had also
said that this Bill would change the character of poli-
tical agitation, that speeches would be made in holes and
corners with only the Government spies for audiences.
Be it so; then they would not do so much mischief as
when utterrd in public to myriads of misguided persons.
He held in his hand a number of such speeches which
loudly called for legislative interference; and here,
although not accustomed to allude to the public press,
he must express his thanks to the conductors of the
Herald, Times, and, indeed, all the journals which
he was in the habit of seeing, for their exertions in pro-
moting the cause of peace and order. Many of those
speeches were attributed to the Hon. Member for
Limerick, who, in his (Sir R. Inglis's) view, defied public
opinion in this country and in the House.—(Hear, hear.)
When that Hon. Member had risen, he (Sir R. Inglis)
was prepared for one, to ask whether the House would
not require from the Hon. Member some explanation of
his recent conduct in a neighbouring country before he
was permitted to address it. It was true that the lion.
Member had towards the close of his speech offered
some sort of vindication. Such as it was it had been
listened to by the House with a feeling which the Hon.
Member would be able to appreciate.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member had said " I went to France to con-
gratulate the people on having regenerated the spirit of
independence, which I trust will react on my own coun-
try." Now, these words had a meaning or they bad
not. If they had a meaning, was it not that recent
events in France might lead to the establishment of re-
publican institutions in Ireland?—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. S. O'BRIEN had only to repeat that at present
he only sought for Ireland a Government by the Queen,
Lords, and Commons of Ireland, but, whatever his own
feelings might he, he believed that if that were refused
a republic would be the result.
Sir R. INGLIS believed that he had not misinter-
preted the Hon. Member's expressions. He had only
to say, in conclusion, that he gave his hearty support to
the Bill as it stood, and he trusted that, for the sake of
catching a few stray votes, the Government would not
consent to neutralise any of its provisions. They had
been taunted for weeks with giving encouragement to
malcontents in both divisions of the empire, and their
defence had been, that in the existing state of the law
they had no power of suppression. He trusted, then,
that having the Bill so nearly within their grasp they
would not part with it, but would administer it with a
reverend regard for proper and sound constitutional
liberty.

Mr; ANSTEY would support the Bill for the reasons
so ably stated by his Hon. and Learned Friend the Soli-
citor-General. In answer to the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose,
he begged to state, that under the existing law
punishment might be found for the offences named in
the Bill. The measure of the Government was intended
to mitigate the seventies of the existing law—there was
nothing in it that contradicted any principle of our con-
stitution. It was an improvement not only on the law as
established by ancient decisions, but it was an improve-
ment on the statute of Edward IL, and brought us back
nearer to those days when treason itself was not a
capital offence, by creating an intermediate offence
between sedition and high treason. He looked on the
Bill as an offering to the tolerant spirit of the age, and
as an inducement to the people to support the Govern-
ment in their present wise and moderate course for the
suppression of crime, and he should therefore support it. I
Mr. AGLIONBY considered that Ministers bad con-
sulted the welfare of the public in introducing this Bill.
—(Hear.) The objection to the third clause, which re-
ferred to words written and published or spoken openly
and advisedly, appeared to be made under an entire mis-
apprehension of the effect of that clause. The offence
was made penal only when the object was, by levying
war, to make an attempt against the life or liberty of
the Sovereign, or to overawe the Parliament, or to
incite foreigners to invade this country. With regard
to written words, there was sufficient protection to
the accused, for unless they were published as well
as written, no offence was committed ; and if pub-
lication took place, the parties ought to be pun-
ished. Then as to spoken words. It was not in-
tended by this clause, nor would it have the effect of
preventing the free expression of opinion, unless such
expression was calculated to incite to the levying of war
for the purposes stated, and was made publicly. It would
not punish a man (as had been contended) for speaking
his sentiments at his own dinner-table, however extreme
those sentiments might be, unless he addressed himself_
to multitudes, and endeavoured to incite them to levy
war against the Government, in which case he ought to
be punished.—(Hear, hear.) A jury would always dis-
tinguish between the open and tearless expression of
opinion and words intended as an incitement to levy war.
First, there was a safeguard in the word " advised,"
which would prevent intentions being attributed which
might never have existed; and then there was the effec-
tual safeguard of a British jury, who would always dis-
tinguish between expressions used in the heat of argu-
meut, and expressions used " advisedly," and with in-
tent. He was, however, of opinion that the punishment
of transportation for life was too severe for the offence; .
and he proposed to move an amendment in Committee
to assimilate the Biil, in respect to punishment, more to.
the 6 and 6 Vic., which had been passed for putting an
end to those mad attempts which had previously pre-
vailed of shooting at the Sovereign.—(Hear, hear.) To,
the principle of the measure, he, however, gave a hearty
support.
Lord NUGENT, though concurring in the measure
generally, thought the third clause did not provide suffi- '
cient security against the errors of the reporter or the
malice of the informer—and he proposed to move a pro-
viso, which should render it necessary, before any pro-
secution could take place in respect to treasonable or
seditious words spoken, that the report of the short-
hand writer or other person who took down the words,
should be submitted to the speaker, either immediately,
or within a week after they wore spoken, for him to
admit, deny, or explain, such admission, denial, and
explanation signed by him, to be used as evidence on
the trial, and in the event of the party charged refusing
to admit, deny, or explain, the ,report to be taken as
correct.

Mr. B. OSBORNE had voted for the introduction of
the Bill, but when the measure was put into his hands
that morning, and he saw the words " or by open or ad-
vised speaking," he was so struck with the gravity and
weight of the novel principles which they proposed to
introduce into our system of government that he deter-
mined on voting with what he feared would be the mi-
nority on the present occasion.—(Bear. hear.) When
they were voting for the better security of the Crown,
they should nut forget the security of the people.
Pass such an Act as this, and they could not insure that
security of the people, which, to endanger, would be to
strike a blow at the safety of the Crown and the Go-
vernment.—(Hear.) There was another reason why
they should pause before they affirmed this Bill, Go-
vernment was too apt to take advantage in their
tion of the excitement occasioned by passing events.
Laws passed under the influence of excitement were
usually passed in haste, and were seldom good laws. As
was proposed to be done in this case, they were hurried
through with less consideration than was usually given
to a common turnpike trust Act. The Noble Lord (Lord
J. Russell) seemed to have forgotten what Mr. Burke had
said, as to open and advised speaking. Mr. Burke said,
" that open and advised speaking was the safety-valve
of the constitution, by means of which the foul air was
let off." If, however, he (Mr. B. Osborne) wanted
a reason for voting against the measure, it • was fur
nished by the speech of the Solicitor-General, which
wasaspecial poleadli;g
mwerheichpieace ofjury
would sto
to
wards. Another lawyer, the Hon. and Learned Member
the
for Youghal (Mr. Anstey), had told them that the only
meaning
alteration the Bill would effect in the present law was
to mitigate its severity—inasmuch as open and advised
speaking was now treason. But the Hon. and Learned
Member forgot to add such open and advised speaking
must be followed by an overt act of treason to complete
the offence.— (Hear, hear.) England, however, did not
owe her liberties to lawyers, and if the House depended
on them now they would impair the securities cf the
people, not better the security of the Crown. They had
heard much of the respect due to the Crown, dhe
hoped he was not deficient in that feeling. So sad
as
the Crown maintained its duty to the people he would
support it, rind uphold the present order of things; but
when the Crown forgot its duty to the country, his
obligations and respect ceased. A near relative
of the Prime Minister, the present Duke of
Bedford, had, in 1818, when Marquis of Tavistock,
laid it down that " true loyalty consisted in pre-
serving, not in restricting the liberties of the people."
In that sentiment he fully concurred, and he hoped the
House would not be induced, under the circumstances of
the country, to restrict those liberties by legislating in
spirit adverse to the institutions of the country.—(Hear.)
He could not permit the speech of the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet (Sir G. Grey) to pass without some observation.
It might do well, for the purpose of gaining a temporary
cheer, to say that Government entertained the most
sincere wishes for the peace,
Ireland. But these were mere words. What had Mi-
nisters d prosperity, and riches of
one to carry those wishes into effect? They
promote the peace,
had been two years in office, and what had they done to
He had supported the present Ministry, but he would not
prosperity, and riches of Ireland ?
be a party to the indolence of the Treasury Bench.—
(" Oh," and cheers.) Ile would tell them that they were
now advancing on to a volcano which, if they did not take
care, would soon explode under them ; and he called
upon them, if they had not the power or the ability to
legislate for the good of the country, to give place to
those who had.—(" Hear," and a laugh.)
Dr. BOWRING said it could not be denied that this
Bill created a new political felony. It was true tho pe-
nalty of death attached to words inciting to the levying
of war against the Crown or to the invasion of
the country was proposed to be altered ; but that
law was a. dead letter.— (Hear, hear.) The Bill would
revive the offence
not in the accidents of a good judge and au intelligent
and punish it. He wanted security,
jury, but in the positiveness of the law.—(Hear.) In
regard to overt acts of treason, sad ill what was written