The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-02 00:00:00

the parties concerned, if they should so desire it, to
wind up the undertaking and relieve them from the
penalties to which they may haya subjected themselves.
In submitting these resolutions, it is the opinion of
the Committee that it ought to be left entirely open to
the parties concerned to propose to Parliament any new
measure for carrying out the expectations and objects of
the promoters of the company."
Mr. O'CONNOR said, with regard to the financial
statement of the report, he begged to state that although
the balance sheets were not produced, the book from which
these balance-sheets were made were laid before the
Committee. The resolutions were exceedingly favour-
able to him, but he could not allow an impression to
go abroad, that those workmen who had been managing
this company under his direction were liable to any
odium for the irregularities complained of. Having
stated thus much, and that the resolutions were unani-
mously come to, he had only to appeal to the Chairman
and the other Members of the Committee, to say whether
every facility was not afforded to them to investigate the
accounts and the affairs of the company.
Mr. HAYTER bore his willing testimony to the truth
of the statement made by the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man. Every facility was given to the Committee to in-
vestigate the accounts, and the other matters relating
to the accounts. Every officer that was called for was
produced, and• the accounts were regularly investigated
by an accountant appointed by the Committee, and the
result had been such as stated in the resolutions. With
regard to the general question, he should be quite ready
to go into that when the evidence was in the hands of
Hon. Members, and it only remained for him to confirm
the statement of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that
the resolutions were unanimously agreed to by the Com-
mittee.
Sir B. HALL wished to say a few words with regard
to the observations which had fallen from the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman. He perfectly agreed with him that
every facility was given to the Members of the
Committee to investigate the affairs of the company ;
but at the same time he could not conceal from himself
the fact that the whole of the original accounts stated to
have been audited by Mr. Cuffay and Mr. Knight, with the
exception of the accounts ending for the quarters of
September, December, 1847, and March, 1848, had
been destroyed.— (Hear; hear.) He wished to ask
the Honouralele Gentleman what course he intended
to take in order to effect the complete registra-
tion of the company ; and he also wished to know
whether he proposed to make over the estates vested in
his name to those persons who, under the rules and
regulations of:the society, were entitled to them.
Mr. O'CONNOR thought the course that had been
pursued by the Hon. Baronet was rather uncandid and
unfair to him (Mr. O'Connor), for he had sought upon
the bringing up of the report to cast imputations upon
his motives. With respect to the question that had been
put to him, the only answer he could give was that it
was left by the report of the Committee to
the propounders and promoters of the society to
say whether, they would wind up the society,
or apply to Parliament for power to carry it on.
With respect to the second question, he had offered to
the Committee to apply to the House to give him power
to hand over the property to the parties who had agreed
to purchase it.
The report was then ordered to be received.
On the question that it be printed,
Mr. O'CONNOR said that the Hon. Baronet had
attempted to confuse the accounts of the financial
secretary with his (Mr. F. O'Connor's) accounts.
Mr. HAYTER, in answer to a question from Mr.
Bouverie, said that according to the calculations of the
accountant, it would be from 150 to 230 years before
parties could obtain the benefits that had been held out
to them by this society.—(A laugh.)
Mr. G. THOMPSON bore his testimony to the entire
exoneration of the Hon. Member for Nottingham from
the charge made against him, that in the prosecution of
this scheme he only considered his own benefit, and not
that of the working classes.
The report was then ordered to be printed.
DISEASE AMONG CATTLE.
Mr. LABOUCHERE (in answer to a question) said
he hoped in a few days t 6 introduce two Bills on this
subject, one for prohibiting the importation of foreign
cattle when suspected to be diseased, the other to enable
the Government to take measures for checking the spread
of disease.

HORSHAM ELECTION.
Mr. S. WORTLEY called the attention of the House
to the petition of W. R. S. Fitzgerald, Esq., a Member
of the House, complaining of the recognizances entered
into in respect of the petition against his return, and
moved that the consideration of all election petitions be
postponed till next session.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought that the ob-
jections raised against the recognizances were really fri-
volous, and ought not to be permitted to nullify the peti-
tion, particularly as those recognizances were only mat-
ters of form, and that the errors complained of would
be rectified by the certificate of the examiner. He could
only regard tue objection as a technical quibble, and was
quite sure that his Hon. Friend only made the present
motion to enable him (the Solicitor-General) to state his
opinion on the subject.
Mr. S. WORTLEY nodded assent, and expressed his
intention of withdrawing the motion.
Mr. M. MILNES hoped the motion would not be
withdrawn. Ho thought it absurd to appoint an Election
Committee and they so close upon the 12th of August.—
(A laugh.)
Sir W. HEATUCOTE did not see why the conside-
ration of the subject should not be proceeded with dur-
ing the present session.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said, that as it was not his wish
originally to press his motion unless it had the concur-
rence of the House, he would withdraw it.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
THE LAW OF MARRIAGES.

In answer to Sir It H. INGLIS,
Mr. S. WORTLEY said that he was in hopes that he
would be enabled to bring in his Bill on this subject at an
early hour to-morrow (this day).
Mr. GOULBURN made an observation, after which
Mr. S. WORTLEY said that he thought it very de-
sirable that the people of this country should be in
session of the fact that there was an intention to propose
an alteration in the law respecting marriages which
would have a retrospective as well as a prospective
effect.

CHURCH TEMPORALITIES.
Mr. HORSMAN, in moving " That a humble address
be epresented to her Majesty, praying that she will be
pleased to take into her consideration the whole condi-
tion of the Established Church as regards its temporali-
ties; that she will direct an inquiry to be made into the
full value of all Church property under lease, and cause
such measures to be prepared as may make the revenues
of the Church more conducive to the religious teaching
of the people," observed that legislation on ecclesiastical
matters had been most difficult and ineffective, inasmuch
as there were no clear rules laid down for the adminis-
tration of ecclesiastical affairs. For instance, some
people thought that the Church was intended to main-
tain the dignity of the Crownrand others supposed that
it was merely instituted for the purpose of benefiting the
clergy belonging to it, and a third class imagined that it
was a system which was adopted on account
of the immense patronage which it afforded.
The Church was then looked upon as a vast corporate
body, and they could not proceed to legislate on it
without exposing all the evils which had existed for
some time. They must, in the first place, ascertain how
far, according to the first principles on which the Esta-
blishment was originally founded, the intentions of its
founders were carried out. Now they would find that
it was for the instruction of the people that the parochial
system was instituted, that cathedrals and churches
were erected, that prelates were ordained, and that en-
dowments were granted. All that tended to carry out
that intention ought to be confirmed and strengthened
by them, and all obstacles in its way should be removed.
He confined his motion to the temporalities of the
Church, as it was a branch of the subject with which
Parliament could most easily deal. To show how far
the original intention of the founders of the Caurch
Establishment was carried out, he would state his
conviction that there was no country in the world
in which there existed so much wealth and poverty,
so much learning and ignorance, so much zeal
and indifference, so much piety and absolute
heathenism, as in this country—in no country where
Christianity-was known, was there so large a proportion
of the populetiou so totally uninformed, and so totally
removed from all the influences of Christianity as abso-
lutely to ignore its very name. That fact was univer-
sally acknowledged, and it was their duty to provide a
remedy. He was ready to admit that a good deal had
been done to remedy that evil, and that during the last
few years Acts had been passed by which the Church
was raised in the scale of popularity much higher than
in former years ; and that much had been done by the
activity and zeal of benevolent societies ; but they
could not root out the evils entirely, unless they removed
the defects- which existed in the machinery. Tke pre-
sent system was one which was fraught with wasteful-
ness and improvidence, and by which the Church
Establishment lost materially. A Committee set some
sessions ago to make inquiries into the subject, and
they got information from some which was refuted by
others. The present Archbishop of Canterbury, who
was then the Bishop of Chester, stated his income to be
3,900/. a year, while his rental was said to be 16,2361. a
year, making a difference of 25 per cent. The late
Archbishop stated his income to be 22,0001. a year, while
the rental was stated to be 52,0001. a year, making a loss
of 30,0001. per annum. The Archbishop of York gave
his income at 13,000/. a year, but the rental was no less
than 41,0001., being a loss of 28,000/. The Eon. Gen-
tleman brought forward the evidence of Mr. k keilaiset,
the Government actuary, to show what loss the,Churcl;
sustained under the present system, and compained of
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not been very effective in attaining the objects for
ABcyt ot Cho
which it was passed. Those returns stated that 2,553
clergymen were non-resident at their benefices by license
and gave of their bishops, and that 900 clergymen were
non-resident without any license or dispensation for
being absent, which facts showed that the law.wits not
enforced as it ought to be. Having thus stated the ge-
neral circumstances of the case—having shown that
there was an available surplus of 800,0001. which might
be applied to the purposes of the Church, the hat ques-
tion to be considered was in what way to appropriate this
surplus fund; He had shown that there were 6,8)0 living
with endowments of less than 3001. a year to each. The
fact itself was a scandal to the Church, nrr would
he rest until he had made every effort to remove it.—
(Hear, hear.)
, Of the 6,800 underpaid livings, one half
were in the gift of the Crownor of the pablic, and to
raise them to 3001., a year each would reqaire the sam of
435,0001. To endow the remaining underpaid livhigs in the

gift of private individuals would absorb 265,0001. So
that with 700,0001. the whole of these 6,800 livings would
be raised to a proper and adequate stipend. By this
means a resident clergy would be attained, to the great
advantage of the population, and if in conjunction with
these steps it was provided that large districts should be
divided the whole of the present evils would, in a great
degree, be removed. The inquiry which he now pro-
posed to institute was of the same nature as that which
was entrusted by the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell)
to a Committee of the House some years ago. The
mode of appropriating the surplus revenues of the
Church now proposed by him was the same that had
been approved of by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
(Mr. Goulburn), and adopted by the Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir R. Peel) and his party ; and under these circum-
stances he felt that he had some right to expect his motion
would not be opposed. There never was a time when the
Church had more friends than it now possessed, nor was
there ever a period when there existed less of party
jealousy than at the present moment. The most eff,c-
tual mode of averting danger from the Church was by
strengthening its hold upon the attachment of the peo-
ple. He trusted, therefore, that it would not be thought
necessary to delay the inquiry which he proposed. He
was certain that the time was come at which it ought to
be instituted, and with these views he called upon the
House to support the motion which he was about to
make. The Hon. Member concluded his speeds amidst
loud cheers, by moving for an address in the terms al-
' ready stated at the commencement of his speech.
Sir E. N. BUXTON rose to second the motion. He
rejoiced that his Hon. Friend had brought forward his
proposal, and that he had done so in such a manner as
that no one could accuse him of being actuated by a hos-
tile spirit to the Church.—(Cries of " llear, hear.") If
the suggestions made by him were acted on, they would
confer a real blessing on the people of England,
and greatly strengthen the hands of the Church.
He would not go over the same ground that his
lion. Friend had recently traversed. The facts of the
case were very plain. In the year 1836 the Noble Lord
now at the head of the Government had admitted the
surplus fund to exist, but no step had been taken to apply
it to the purposes now suggested. Even the Right Hon.
Baronet and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite agreed
in saying that the ecclesiastical surplus funds ought to
be applied to render the Church more efficient. If some
portion of those surplus funds were to be supplied to the
purposes of the City Missions, they would be most ad-
vantageously appropriated in so far as religion and mo-
rality were concerned. It was of the greatest moment
that there should be adequate stipends provided for the
clergy and for those engaged in the City Missions.
The motion being put from the Chair,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had heard the speech of
the Hon. Member with great satisfaction, for it was one
which every one interested in the welfare of the Church
would approve of, and no objectionable topics had been
introduced into it. The proposal made by the Hon. Mem-
ber was worthy of serious consideration; at the
seine time the whole subject was, he felt, encompassed
with practical difficulties. The property of the Church
had been truly represented by the Hon. Member as
being of far greater value than the amount received by
the bishops and other clergy. There was now an in-
quiry making by a Committee on the subject of Church
leases. But he could not say that he would give his ap-
proval to any scheme for dealing with that class of pro-
perty until he had seen the report of that Committee. It
was, however, obvious that if the scheme based, on Mr.
Finlaison s calculations was to be carried into execution
a very long time must elapse before any benefit cauld be
derived from the Church property, and in the interval
the incomes of the clergy must be augmented from some
other source. If, on the other hand, the scheme of
selling the leases was at once adopted, the danger of
losing all the prospective increase of income would be ob-
vious, and the Church 40 years hence would be greatly
impoverished when the increasing population would re-
quire greater efficiency than now on the part of the clergy.
Such were the difficulties which, in his estimation, sur-
rounded the question. At the same time he had no hesita-
tion in saying that the main proposition of the Hon.
Member was well founded, and that he was justified in
looking to the increased value of Church property as the
source for increasing the incomes of the working clergy.
lie did riot, however, feel quite sure that he agreed in the
Hon. Member's opinion as to the importance of increasing
the stipend of every clergyman up to a certain amount,
whilst other important objects were yet to be achieved.
There were parishes with small congregations which
might be advantageously consolidated. But there were
difficulties in the shape of advowsons which prevented
those cases from being dealt with as if the parishes were
within the gift of the Crown, or were public patronage,
when such consolidation might easily be effected. For
his own part, he did not think it advisable to address the
Crown to issue a commission for the purpose of request-
ing bishops and clergymen to state the amounts of their
incomes and the full value of the leases granted
by them. He owned he should be very willing
to get this information, but not by means of a
commission nominated by the Crown, which
would in some degree be compulsory. The Hon. Mem-
ber had truly stated that the bishops formerly refused to
give any information or to make any such return of the
value of the leases held under them. It was not becom-
ing in the House to place the Crown in the position of
being subjected to such a refusal. The question of
making such returns compulsory on the bishops and the
clergy was not before the House, and he hoped it would
satisfy the-Hon. Member if he (Lord J. Russell) declared,
which he was prepared to do, that he was willing to treat
the present subject as he had done a former motion of a
similar description, and promise to consider how best to
attain the object had in view, that, namely, of getting a
knowledge of the value of Church property under
leases. The present system was a wasteful one, and that
arose from the bishops not having more than a life
interest in the property sander their charge. With
respect to the rights of the lessees, if the property of
the Church was ample enough to provide for all the
purposes required, he should not have been disposed to
construe them too strictly ; but as the reverse was noto-
riously, the case, as the wants of the people were far
beyond the existing means of the Church, and as there
were daily rising into notice large districts calling for
spiritual care, all considerations for the lessees vanished,
and the absolute duty of making the most of the Church
property became obviouS and paramount. The Hon.
Member was, however, hardly justified in saying that the
Act of IE3B, respecting pluralities and abseentees, was a
failure, for it was not intended to apply to the then ex-
isting generation of beneficed clergymen, but to their
successors, and it had already produced the most marked
and beneficial results. Having made these few remarks,
he should not oppose the motion of the Hon. Member ;
but he could only repeat his hope, that he would not, by
persevering in it, place the Crown in the position of being
liable to sustain a refusal to obeyits precepts on the part
of any bishop or clergyman.
Sir R. INGLIS said that the Hon. Member had
repeatedly triumphed, without being obliged to fight any
battle, on occasions like ithe present. The virtual con-
cession of the Prime Minister was sufficient to satisfy
a more ambitious mind than that of the Hon. Member.
It had been asserted by him that the Church property
amounted to three, four, or five millions. Now the re-
turns of that property told him that its annual value was
'not greater than 2,300,0001., and the remainder of the
4,000,0001. must be made up by computing the value of
Church property which was entirely absorbed by laymen.
He begged also to recall the fact to mind, in respect to
the proposed method of dealing with Church leases,
that the holders of those leases were considered to be as
much entitled to them as any Hon. Member was to
possess his freehold estate. He entirely agreed with the
Hon. Baronet (Sir E. N. Buxton) as to the spiritual
destitution of the metropolis ; but he did not think that
the Church property ought to be appropriated to the
purposeseof the City Mission, as proposed by him. He
was glad to find that the Noble Lord did not approve of
an address to the Crown, though, practically speaking,
n
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to urge his Hon. Friend to insist upon pressing
mo-
tion after the statement which had been made by the
Noble Lord. No one could deny that the Church pro-
perty had been very much :mismanaged. He did not
participate in the fears of the Noble Lord, that informs,-
tiou us to the value of Church leases would be refused by
the present life proprietors. The Church property must
be considered to be in a great degree upon the same
footing as corporate property ; and a Royal Commission
having successfully inquired into the value of corporate
property, so a similar inquiry into ecclesiastical pro-
perty would be attended with success. He did not be-
lieve that the bishops, deans, and other, clergy would
deem it either consistent with their duty or their respect
to the Crown to refuse any information respecting their
leases. He hoped, however, the necessary information
would be otherwise obtained. The Church property
ought to be so managed as to produce the greatest
amount of rental ;' whereas the reverse was the fact. A
remarkable case had occurred subsequent to the fire in
York Minster. The dean and chapter had not the funds
necessary for repairs, but they had an estate in Ser-
geant's-inn, Fleet-street, and, at their suggestion,:an Act
was passed for its sale. The property sold for 11,4651.;
the law costs were 1,400/.—(Hear, hear.) The dean
and chapter for their individual claims took 6,7001., and
the consequence was that there remained but 1,6691.
for the repairs, and 1,6461. to be invested for the use of
the church. Such was the working of church leases.—
(Hear, hear.) He bad had some experience in these
matters in London and Westminster, and his belief was
that during the last fifty years from forty to sixty
thousand pounds had been lost to the Church by the mode
of working the leases. His Honourable and Learned
Friend the Member for Cockermouth had been taken
to task for his estimate of the income of the
Church. Now he (Mr. Wood) thought it not at all over-
stated. It would be found that the commuted tithes
amounted to three millions in round numbers, and the
uncommuted were • rated at one-sixth of that amount.
Then the general income of
the clergy, independent of
tithes, amounted to making 860,0001., •
ng an aggregate not
very different from that which his Hon. and Learned
Friend had taken.—(Hear, hear.) There was this to
be remembered, their property which had been valued
to the Church Commissioners at 120,0001. had since it
had come under their management, produced 300,0001.,
so that the probability was, that if the Church income
had been returned as worth 4,600,000/, its real value
was not far short of five millions.—(Hear, hear.) ear, His
Hon. and Learned Friend had not said, nor did he,
that this was too much for the legitimate purposes of
the Church ; but he trusted that the time was not far
off when it would be distributed snore equally than was
the case at present.—(Hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN was desirous of expressing his sa-
tisfaction at the tone and temper with which the Hon.
and Learned Member for Cockermouth had introduced
the subject; and as he (Mr. Goulburn) had had the
misfortune to differ from the Hon. and Learned Member
on a former occasion, be could assure him on the pre-