The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-05 00:00:00

NAME OF RAILWAY.

July

Aberdeen •• • • • • • • • • • • •
Amiens and Boulogne
Belfast and Ballymena • • • • • - • • • • • • • •
Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Cheshire
Caledonian.-- ...... • • • • • • • ••• • • •
Chester and Holyhead..... • .
Cockermonth and Workington • • • •
Dublin and Drogheda ...... .........
Dublin and Kingstown • . • • .• • • • • • • • •
Dundee, Perth, and Aberdeen • • • • • • • •
East Ang1ian.......................
Edinburgh and Glasgow . •• • •• •• • • • •
Edinburgh and Northern • . • • • • • • • • • •
Eastern Counties and North Eastern..
East Lancashire
I!3 Eastern Union.. ................

Aug. 1
July .29
30

Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and Ayr • • • • • .
Glasgow and Green0ck......... • . • .
Groat Southern and Western • • • • .• • •
Great Western, &c
Kendal and Windermere...—. • • • • •
Lancashire and Yorkshire.. • • • • • • •
Lancaster and Carlisle • • • • • • • • ..... •
Leeds and Think... .... ••• • . -• •• ••
Londonderry and Lnniskilleno.......
London and North Western, &c
London and Blackwall
London and Brighton ..• •.
London and South Western
Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire
Maryport and Carlisle
Midland, Bristol, and Birmingham
Midland Great Western (Irish) • •
.Newmarket... ..... • • .... • • .. •

Newcastle and Carlisle .. ..

Norfolk.. • • • • •• ..

North British .. ...... ..

Paris and Rouen. •........• •• •• .• ..
Rouen and Havre ..................

Scottish Central ........

Shrewsbury and Chester ............
South Eastern and Branches ........
South Dev0n........ . .• • . • • .. ~....

Taff Vale ...... • • • .

Ulster ........

554
1,394

923
4,497
1,460

134
775
1,112
1,333

633
3,767
1,912
16,479
1,255
1,393
2,603
1,478
4,045
21,654

203
11,926
2,501

162
48,915
1,243
14,934
10,963
3,200

655
23,497
860

11,910
4,735
1,952

651
12,00
1,61 e
1,969

4;259

15,585
1,267
1,177
3,090
.1,424
1,695
21,001

10,938
1,458

159
48,027
1.502
13,501
11,4,92
2,355
677
22,824
78$

2,533

509
11,663
1,172
1,560
755

_ _ ........
Watertbrd and Limerick.............
Whitehaven Junction ...............

:273

Wishaw and Coltness : ... ..... .:
York and Newcastle . ..........
York and North Midland .......

RAILWAY INTELLIGENCE.
MALTON AND DRIFFIELD JUNCTION.

The half-yearly meeting of this company was held on
Monday at the offices, Mahon; Mr. W. C. Copperthwaite
in the chair.

The report stated that since the last meeting the
directors had principally directed their attention to
getting in the arrears of calls, and limiting the expendi-
ture upon the works so as to enable them to redeem their
promise of not calling up more than 51. per share during
the present year. Since that meeting they had received,
without any recourse to harsh measures, 5,3811. of the
arrears, and of the call of 1/. per share due April 22,
7,5901.; so that of 90,0001. called up, there only remained
the sum of 10,3191. upaid, and of this a further sum
of 4,000/. was expected to be speedily paid, leaving
arrears of about 6,000/., or little more than six per
cent. of the capital called up. To enable the works
to proceed the contractor had allowed 20.0001. to stand
over for the present. A call of 11. 10s. per share is to
be parable on the Bth of August, and another of 11., pay-
able in November. Those two calls will amount to
30,0004, of which 5,000/. has been paid in advance by the
York and North Midland Company. The directors ex-
press a hope that the shareholders will be punctual in
the payment of the calls so as to enable them to continue
the works. The engineer's report stated that the opera-
tions of the contractor have been confined principally to
the tunnel at Burdale, and to the part of the lino between
13urdo.le and Driffield, on which one side of the perma-
nent way was laid and ballasted, and the second line was
partially ballasted. That the whole of the line laid was
in excellent order, and could be used for public traffic in
the course of a fortnight. The aceuunts showed that
87,304/. had been received, and 86,326/. expended, Wav-
ing a balance of 1,008/. at the bankers.
The report was adopted, and thanks were ♦oted to the
directors for their good management, after which the
meeting separated.

MANCHESTER, SHEF
SH FIHLD, AND LINCOLN-
IRE.

It is with no small degree of pleasure that we notice
the progress of the works o n the Manchester, Sheffield,
and
Lincolnshire Railway in the neighbourhood of Rot-
ford. Already the tunnel of 550 yards in length through
the Clarborough Hills is fast approaching towards com-
pletion, and as double sets of hands are engaged night
and day, it is presumed that this great undertaking will
be completed early in the month of October—although
we believe (on the authority of the contractors) that
the whole could be finished in about eleven weeks from
the present time. What has tended materially to further
the making of this, the lengthiest tunnel on the line, is
the\va
undertaking,rcianpgi t
aa ll a bedsd wsoh ni oes f clay
haslmy enabledf orm ed boththe eeeahsttr
aaentdo
rws e(s
hit oafs! hr
se.
to make their own bricks, and by •
temporary side line to convey them to the spot with the
least possible delay arid at the least possible expense.
The approach to this tunnel has furnished an abundance of
material for making the embankment near Welham,
which crosses the Retford and Gainsborough turnpike-
road twice, and which at its principal is 33 feet high.
Coming to the south-east of Retford, it enters a cutting
26 feet 6 inches at its greatest depth, passing under the
great North Road, and over the Chesterfield Canal
feeder, and then on an embankment 21 feet high it
crosses the river Idle and Ordsall Lows, whence it again
encounters high ground and enters a cutting. Here for
a considerable distance the line is ballasted and one line
of rails permanently laid, and it is from hence that all the
ballast for the line to Bolefield, near the River Trent, will
have
ttoebeHtoakhe. nj..Cßr.osssiiningpistehhro,supgrhelpVehrtiyskher; passesibllriidtgeand
culvert,
a
ragnh a
ovehrthe
Journal. both of which are already completed. In
ddisatnanceennftuinrutheerpatrhte
opfertmheanwenayt lines are
oarrkesaogpa._
o again
laid,
n

BRISTOL SUGAR MARKET, AUG. 4.—We have had
a better demand for raw sugars since the settlement of
the question as to the duties on refined nugars, but the
market is still far from active. For crushed there is s
very good demand, at full prices. Rum is still dull.--
Bristol Mercury.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, August 4.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upJla the
Woo'sack at Five o'clock.
NAVIGATION-LAWS.

The Earl of HARDWICKE brought up the report of
the Committee on the Navigation-laws.
The NOBLE EARL lilt:wise presented several petitions
against the repeal of those laws.
SALMON FISHERIES.
The Severn Salmon Breed Preservation Bill was read
a second time.

PETITIONS.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Lan-
caster in favour of secular education; also a petition
from an individual named Hardy, complaining of the
evils arising from the existence of grand juries, who
found bills on ex parte evidence, which were afterwards
used for the purpose of extorting money, the indict-
ments thus found never being prosecuted.
SICILIAN AFFAIRS.
The NOBLE Loa- also asked if Mr. Fagan, an attache
to the British Embassy, had gone in a British steam-fri-
gate to Palermo, and had signified to the Sicilian Pro-
visional Government, in opposition, his instructions, as
he was bound to suppose, that if they did not choose the
Duke of Genoa for King of Sicily, the countenance of
the British Government should be withdrawn from them.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood
to say that there was no foundation for the report
to which the Noble and Learned Lord alluded.
IRELAND.

Lord BROUGHAM hoped that the Government
would take measures for punishing that portion of the
press which spread false reports with regard to Ireland.
Some newspapers had Wen propagating most false re-
ports with regard to the rebellion in Ireland—
reports calculated to produce an outbreak. Fie
was willing to take all his share of the un-
popularity of any measure which might be
proposed to suppress such false reports. The press
knew that so long as it was kept within the bounds of
truth there was no firmer or more sincere friend of the
liberty of the press than he was.
MILITIA.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE asked if the Government in-
tended to propose any measure for calling out the mi-
litia force of the country, and for re-organizing it?
Earl GREY said it had been th._ intention of the Go-
vernment to propose a measure for the re-organization
of the militia force, but at present they were compelled,
in consequence of the state of the finances, to abandon
the hope of bringing forward any measure on the sub-
ject during the present session of Parliament.
After a short conversation the subject dropped.
THE SLAVE TRADE.

Lord BROUGHAM said he had seen with surprise
that a Committee of the other House was sitting on the
question of reviving the slave trade, by withdrawing the
British squadron from the coast of Africa. He used the
term " reviving the slave trade," because no consequence
was ever clearer than that such an act would inevitably
engender the renewal and extension of the slave trade.
Nothing was more contemptible than the argument that
money could be saved by withdrawing the squadron,
while an impetus would be given to the traffic in slaves.
It was true the squadron might not be able to extermi-
nate the slave trade, but it could not be denied that it
kept down the trade very considerably. He understood
that the Committee had been considerably influenced by
the evidence of one person, but who was that person ?
Why, an American slaveowner, who wanted five hun-
dred more slaves for his plantations—a man who, al-
though he had committed no specific act of murder, was
)et as much a murderer as if he had the brand of Cain
on his forehead. Ha would move for the returns of the
number of saves imported into the Brazils during the
last two years.
Earl GREY said that all the information on the sub-
ject received at the Foreign-office was on the table of the
House already.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH thought it desirable
that a message should be sent to the House t..;f Commons
for copies of the evidence taken before that Committee.
Sever al naval officers must have been examined; and, if
their representations agreed with those he had heard
from many naval officers, he thought he should be able
to show his Noble and Learncd Friend cause materially
to change his opinions, and to satisfy their Lorch.hips
that, to prevent the trade, by means of a squadron on the
co. ast, was practically impossible, and that a consequence
of. its presence was, that the slave trade was conducted
with a degree of cruelty which far surpassed anything
stated by the Noble and Learned Lord.
The motion was then understood to be withdrawn.
CASE OF LORD ABBUTHNOT.

Lord BROUGHAM said he felt it to be his duty to
avail himself of the earliest opportunity of calling their
Lordships' attention to a fact connected with the case of
a Noble Lord who stands accused of an offence which
has thrown his family into great anxiety and distress.
He had ascertained that a memorial had been drawn up
by the grand jury who found the bills, that the Noble
Lord was afflicted with a disease which affected his
mind, and to which the act might be traced. He had
the fact from Mr. John Bayley, the clerk of the arraigns.
He had known the Noble Lord for sixteen years, and
considered him a most amiable man. He wished to have
this memorial produced.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said the grand jury had
gone beyond their provincel in agreeing to the memorial
in question. It was the duty of the grand jury to take
evidence only for the Crown, and were precluded from
taking for the defence. Their Lordships' House was not
the place to obtain the document.
Lord CAMPBELL said the case of the Noble Lord
was calculated to excite their sympathy, but that House
had no jurisdiction in the case. They were acting under
the sanction of an Act of Parliament. The fact, as it

stood at present, was, that the Usher of the Black Rod
had been ordered to take the party into custody, but the
return was non est int•entus. He wonid not, at the pre-
sent, enter into the case, and would abstain from further
remarks, and would merely observe that they would all
be glad to return a verdict of " Not guilty upon their
honour."

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) BILL.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE moved the se-
cond reading of the Public Works (Ireland) No. 2 Bill.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said that the events
which had recently taken place in Ireland would not in-
duce him to abstain from doing what might be advan-
tageous to Ireland. This Bill was of an important
character. It provided that the money which had been
advanced to Ireland should be repaid, !but that as it
was collected it should be appropriated exclusively
to Irish purposes. In that principle he en-
tirely concurred. The sum so to be appropriated
was four millions and a half. He acquiesced in the prin-
ciple, but it did not follow that the objects to which it
was to be applied by the Bill were the most advan-
tageous. The improvement of the soil was most impor-
tant, but was not the most necessary. The object to
which they should direct their attention was the im-
provement of the social condition of the country. Un-
less that was effected they could expect no good result.
It was at present a scandal to this country and to the age.
—(Hear, hear.) There was no country, in this respect,
in so bad a state, that pretended to civilisation. He re-
collected the observation of Lord Eldon, that there were
two Irelands—Protestant and,Catholic Ireland. There
was not in the north of Ireland that disorganization
which prevailed in the south. It was this difference of
religion which was the source of the evil. He did not
mean to say there was anything in the Catholic religion
which would of necessity cause this state of things.
There were many other countries in which that religion
prevailed where no such evils existed, and which
were remarkable for the excellence of their social
condition. It was not because it was a conquered coun-
try, not because there had been confi,cations of property,
not because there had been religious persecutions—for
there were other countries which had passed through all
these phases, and yet everywhere else the conquerors and
the conquered were found living together in unity and
prosperity under the same laws. Having conceded the
Catholic claims, it was evident there must be some pecu
liarity in the state of that country to cause this state of
things. That peculiarity was to be found in the fact
that the religion of the great body of the people was re-
pudiated by the State. What remedy then should be
applied ? Not that which bad been recommended
by some. Not the taking away the funds of the
Establishment for the endowment of the Roman
Catholic clergy. The Act which would so alienate
the property of the Church would also alienate
the Protestants of Ireland, who might be considered
the national garrison of the country. The remedy con-
sisted in making the Roman Catholic clergy the stipe-
diaries of the State and subject to its patronage. The
money to be repaid under the provisions of this Bill
should be applied to the purchase of glebes and the
building of glebe houses for the Roman Catholic clergy,
and attached to the cure, leaving things in other respects
as they were at present. This was no new opinion of
his, it was one which he had long entertained. The
late Lord Castlereagh, whose love for Ireland was sur-
passed by no one, had always appreciated in his mind
with the emancipation of the Catholics the endowment
of the clergy, and often expressed a wish that he might
live to see that measure effected. He wished at the pre-
sent crisis to state his opinion. A time of difficulty was
the period at which those who were members of a legis-
lative assembly should come forward and state their
opinions to the country, and that they were determined
to do their duty. If he had not at the present moment
stated his opinion he should consider himself unworthy
of the station he occupied.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord MONTEAGLE said, from the interest he took
in what concerned Ireland, he could not but declare that
the Noble Earl was entitled to the thanks of every liberal
man in the country for the opinions he had expressed.
He had never heard the matter put forward with more
ability, for he had often heard it put unfairly, inpro-
posals to endow the Rotnan Catholic- clergy f romthe
funds of the Church. The condition of the Catholic
clergy was most unfortunate, fur they were often driven
will, to political agitation against their by the people,
under the threat of starvation, withdraw ing fromttbaem:
the means of support.—(Hear, hear.) He would take
that opportunity of reminding the House that his late
strongly Majesty King George the Third, however he
might have been opposed to the Roman Catholic
claims
ai
in other respects, was favourable to the endowment
of the Roman Catholic clergy. And they might de.
pend upon it, from the discussions now taking place on
that subject, and occupy
. the position it was beginning to
in public estimation, that great boon must ultimately beconceded. If the subject were examined into, the ob-
jections to such concession was not so strong as some be-
lieved, for if they severed that peculiar class of objec-
tions urged by those opposed to all endowments of reli-
gion by the State, they would find the remaining class
was neither numerous nor formidable.—(Hear.)
Lord STANLEY said he could not but express his re-
gret that his Noble Friend (Ellenhorough) should have
entered into a discussion and given expression to certain
speculative views entertained by him upon a subject
which was not before the House. The measure before
the House was for the purpose of authorising the re-issue

of the money repaid by Ireland to the Imperial Trottlvy
1 for the same or similar purposes for which they had been
originally made. They were not now called upon to
I discuss the policy or the expediency of laying out large
sums for the purpose of endowing the Roman Catholic
clergy of Ireland from the Imperial Treasury. That
way not a question to be discussed incidentally
in the course of a debate originated in a Bill authorising
the re-issue of a few hundred thousand pounds to pro-
mote public works. They should not then argue the
question at all. With no inconsiderable share of asto-
nishment had he heard the Noble Lord state the oil-
visability, in his judgment, of paying four millions and
a half out of the imperial funds for building glebes and
the endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy. Such a
proposition involved questions of policy as well as of
principle—questions for the consideration of a large
portion of the population of the country. It was with
many a question of religious feeling and religious prin-
ciple. With him it was one of state policy, though he
admitted that was not the light in which it was viewed
by the majority of the Protestant population. As a
question of policy, he admitted the Roman Catholic
clergy were too much under the control of their flocks.
But he was not satisfied with the doctrine already laid
down, that it was expedient to place that clergy on a
footing of perfect: independence of their; flocks by
means of endowments taken from the Imperial
Treasury, without at the same time connecting
them, as a matter of policy, or rather of police,
with the Government. Before he assented to any State
provision being made for the clergy, he should like to
know the quid pro quo, as well as the condition on which
the grants were to be allowed. While he made this ad-
mission, ho entirely deprecated the discussion inci-
dentally of so important a subject, and the hasty expres•
sion of opinion upon a question which did not come then
legitimately under the consideration of their Lordships.
If such a measure were to be brought forward at all, he
trusted it would be brought forward on the responsibility
of Government, with a clear and explicit indication of
the funds from which the endowment was to proceed—
the purposes for which it was made, and the principles
on which the Catholic clergy were to be allowed to
benefit by the endowment. There was, at all events, one
source from which it should not be taken, namely, the
funds of the Established Church. If any such step were
sanctioned, then, in his opinion, the charge ought to be
a local and not an imperial charge, and no endowment
could, with consistency or justice, be made from the im-
perial funds.
Lord BEAU biONT complained that whenever the
question of endowing the Roman Catholic clergy was
raised, it was invariably confounded with the question
of the continuance or non-continuance of the Irish
Church Establishment, although it was in no way what-
eve' connected with, or dependent on it. The Irish
Church Establishment might be an anomaly, but it was
not a grievance, and it was considered in Ireland merely
as a question of property, and not as an interference
with the Catholic religion. He believed they would
cause considerable division among the Catholic clergy if
they were to connect them with the State ; and in his
opinion the connexion of the clergy of two churches
with the State instead of one only, would be even a
greater anomaly than now existed. He should like to
find the Catholic clery of Ireland remunerated by the
Government, and made to feel that they formed a portion
of, and bad an interest in this great empire. It was also
his wish, as a step towards improving the social condi-
tion of Ireland, that larger grants should be expended in
promoting the education of the people, and in strength-
ening the hands of the Commissioners of National Edu-
cation, who, he regretted to say, had received opposition
from a sectarian section of clergy in Ireland, whom he
could not otherwise regard but as bigots.
The Bill was then read a third time, and ordered to
be committed.
CHARITY TRUSTS REGULATION BILL.
The order of the day having been read fur going
into Committee on this Bill,
Lord STANLEY objected to the measure being pro-
ceeded with at this late period of the session. The
Bill was one of great importance, involving new and
objectionable principles, and he did not think it was
right, in the absence of four-fifths of their Lordships,
and nearly the entire bench of Bishops, that the Go-
vernment should persevere with the measure. Besides,
lie had not heard any reason whatever assigned—not
even the shadow of au excuse advanced—why the Bill
was not brought forward at the commencement of the
present session, when it was undeniable, from the pro.
posed Bill of last session, that the Government had
made up their minds upon the subject. Although it
was pretended that it was not meant to interfere by
means of this measure with charities belonging to edu-
cational purposes, yet on referring to the clauses of the
Bill he found that it proposed to deal with every charity
in the country, whatever was its amount or object. It
was proposed that the County Courts were to be the
tribunals which were to have jurisdiction over those
charities, at all events those of comparatively of small
amount ; but when he considered the fees chargeable by
those tribunals, he thought that the consigning those
charities to the jurisdiction of such tribunals would be an
injustice. From returns of the amount of fees charged
by them, he found that in the Home Circuit in the course ,

of one year, while the plaints made before the legal
tribunals as regarded charities, involved charities" to
the amount of 22,0001., of which 11,0001. was decided
by those courts, out of that 18,0001. no less a SLIM than
4,0091. was paid in the shape of fees. And what made
the case worse, from the decision of those courts there
was no appeal ; and it was not right to put it in the
power of one individual in a parish to put charities
under the control of those courts, thereby involving
them in large sums of expenses. It was true, that
notice was given of the scheme proposed to be adopted
with any particular charity, and there was a provision
inserted in the Bill for giving an opportunity for bear-
ing any objections which might be urged to it; but
should such notice not meet with attention, it was sanc-
tioned by the judge, carried into effect, and the decision
being final and conclusive, no appeal could be taken from
it. Considering, therefore, the importance of the mea-
sure, and the magnitude of the interests it affected, he
did not think that on the 4th of August he was asking
too much when he requested that th further considera-
tion of the measure should be postponed until next ses-
sion. He appealed to the House whether, in the present
state of public business, and considering the mass of
business still before the House of Commons—so large
that they were compelled to sit from twelve o'clock in
the day until two and three o'clock the following morn-
ing to get through it—it would be right or proper to pass
a measure through Committee on August 4, have it read
a third time, and sent down to the House of CUMMOUS, in
order to increase the difficulties with which that House
was already beset in getting through the large amount
of business before it.—(Hear, hear.) Ile admitted that
the principle of the measure was a valuable one, but at
the present period of the session it could not receive that
consideration which it deserved. And in all the cir-
cumstances of the case, he considered himself justified
in moving, as an amendment, that the House go into
Committee on the Bill that day three months.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, as the Nellie Lord
did not object to the principle of the measure, and as that
principle had been affirmed on the second reading of the
measure, he saw no good grounds for preventing the
House going into Committee upon it. It was true the
Bill contained some clauses which were not of press-
ing importance at the present time, but it con-
tained others which it was of the greatest im-
portance to the public should become law at as early
a period as possible. The most prominent points of
the measure had for a long period been under the consi-
deration, not only of the Government, but of Parliament,
and while he did not think that in one Bill all the plans
and objects which the various charities of the country
had in view could be united, yet the present measure was
so framed as to include those which itwas conceived were
most in want of the protection of such a measure, and
to whose efficiency such a measure would tend. The
Noble Lord had gone over several clauses of the Bill,
but be had not taken:noticc of the evils which the mea-
sure was intended to remedy. As regarded large
charities, a remedy could be found for any abuses that
might arise in regard to them in the Court of Chancery,
but there were ethers of less magnitude, in regard to
which it was not considered worth the while to be at
the expense of going to the Court of Chancery to have
these abuses remedied, and, in consequence. these were
allowed to remain, and the charities afterwards became
useless. Now, he confessed, he found great diffi-
culty in finding a tribunal fitted for the purpose of in-
vestigating into the abuses of these, and applying a
remedy; but after due consideration he found that a
local tribunal would best suit the purpose, and .the
County Courts at once presented themselves as the [nest
applicable to it. The Noble Lord had complained of
the expense of them, and no doubt it was considerable ;
but as these courts had not been long established, and it
was impossible to know what the expenses of them
would be until they had been some time in operation,
that complaint, in regard to the expense, could be re-
moved. These courts had been most successful. The
fees recived by them had amounted to a large sum,
double the amount of the salaries, in fact, allowed to
the judges of them; and as the salaries of those judges
were about to be fixed at a certain amount, an im-
important opportunity would be afforded of reducing
those fees by one-halt the amount, so that the expense
attending procedure before these courts would be con-
siderably less. In regard, then, to those charities,
should the trustees who had the management of
them die, there were no means at present of appointing
new ones except by application to the Court of Chancery ;
and the consequence was, that out of the 48,000 chari-
ties in the country, a considerable number had no trustee
at all, and were consequently inoperative. The passing
then the of the present measure was therefore of the greatest
oim-
portance to those
b charitiesjectedt
to,he themselves—and
w se
lv
eo
surd and as
stat e
prin-
ciple of it was notwhat
alterations he proposed in several of its clauses. The
clause which seemed to create the greatest alarm was
that which, in consequence of the difficulties in the way
of instituting efficient local investigation, gave the power
of removing them to London, and of bringing up the
witnesses here ; but he could assure their Lordships
that then nobody need be alarmed as to the abuse of
that power, if it were granted, and if any better mode
of attaining the object in view could be devised, he
would be happy to give it his support. If their
Lordships went into Committee, he would pro-
pose some amendments which would remove many
of the objections which had been made to tho measure,
and he trusted that the Noble Lord, instead of persisting
in his motion, would allow the Bill to go into Committee,
and if it was not such as to meet his views, take the
sense of their Lordships upon it at some future stage.
At present, if it was rejected, it would he in the dark.
The question was, whether the public should be punished
because he had not sooner brought in the Bill. Their
Lordships were asked to decide, not whether he might
have brought it in sooner, but whether the Bill, as it
now stood, was one which would secure the object in
stew. Besides, when it was objected that there had not
been sufficient time fur its consideration, he would re-
mind their Lordships that the Bill had been before them
for throe weeks, and he was not aware that eitherduring
that period, or now, their
Lordships had been ovorbur-

dened with business.—(Hear, hear.) There had been
ample time fur consideration in that House, at least with
respect to the other House of Parliament he did u.ot an-
ticipate any difficulty. The principal business was now
nearly disposed of, and there would be nothing to pre-
vent the measure from passing this session. Ile trusted,
therefore, that the Bill would ba permitted to go into
Committee.

Lord REDESDALE said the complaints against the
delay in bringing forward this Bill were not answered
by the statement that it had been three weeks before the
House. When they remembered that the session bad
commenced in November, and that they were now in
August, he considered there was great cause for com-
plaint that such a measure should not have been brought
in at a time when their Lordships were actually crying
out for work. —(liear, hear.) It was well understood
that no business should be brought before their Lord-
ships at this period of the session when it was almost im-
possible to secure a proper attendance unless it vk as of
the most pressing character. He did not concur in the
Bill, and he believed the amendments intended to be pro-
posed by the Noble and Learned Lord would not remove
his objections. For these reasons he thought their Lord-
ships would be justified in delaying the passing of such a
measure.

The Bidtop of OXFORD said that as he should feel
bound to vote for the motion of the Noble Lord against
going into Committee, he was desirous of briefly ex-
plaining why he did so. He admitted the greatness of
the evil which it was sought to remedy; but that was
no reason why be should take the first random measure
proposed on the subject without duo consideration—the
very magnitude of the evil was a reason fur greater care
in applying a remedy.—(Hear, hear.) This was essen-
tially a parochial measure, and the charities affected by
it being of a very old foundation, it was the more ne-
cessary to give time for mastering the details of the Bill.
The Noble and Learned Lord had argued that the Bill
was before the House last year, but all the objectionable
parts of the present measure were not in the
Bill of last year, they were entirely new. The
Bill gave large powers to the judges of the County
Courts, who were not necessarily men of high legal
standing or attainments. It was not even necessary for
them to be barristers; yet to these judges it was pro-
posed to entrust the power of changing the management
of trust property and of altering wills.—(Hear, hear.)
By the Bill any shrewd Dissenting attorney might draw
up a scheme, get it passed by such judges, and transfer
the property of the Church to persons not members of
it.—(Hear, hear.) He objected, at such a period of the
session, to the introduction of a principle which was
alien to the whole of their previous legislation with re-
spect to trust property. lie was firmly convinced that,
unless the Bill was referred to a Select Committee, and
time given for full consideration, it would neither be sa-
tisfactory to their Lordships nor to the country.
Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared-
For going into Committee, Contents 21
Non-contents
Majority —2
•

Their Lordships then went into Committee on the Bii.
The Bishop of OXFORD objected to that pert of the
first clause (as we understood) which gave the judges
of the County Courts the power of extending their own
jurisdic ion to trust property not exceeding 30!. It was
true that by a subsequent clause there was an appeal to
the Lord Chancellor, but the Lord Chancellor had the
power of deciding whether the appeal should be beard
or not, so that practically it gave the judges of the
County Courts the power he stated. This was, in his
opinion, altogether contrary to the principles of the
English law.

The Lord CHANCELLOR replied in a tone which
rendered him almost inaudible in the gallery. We
understood him to say that in dealing with such small
sums such a regulation was necessary. There were no
funds to support protracted and expensive litigation.
The Bishop of OXFORD then proposed an amend-
ment to the effect that the judges of the local courts who
would have to adjudicate upon charities with incomes
not exceeding 301., should be sergeants•at-law, or
barristers-at-law of ten years' standing.
After some further conversation, several verbal amend-
ments were agreed to, and the Committee divided, whe❑
there appeared—

Cunte►:ts
Non-content..;
Majority in favour of the clause
The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 2
and 3.

Clauses 3,4, and 5, with some unimportant verba
amendments, were passed.
O❑ clause 6 being read,

Lord STANLEY objected that the power of the
Court of Chancery should be assigned to a judge of the
County Court, with the view of exercising jurisdiction
over charities not otherwise subject to his jurisdiction.
The entire clause was objectionable, and he should move
that it be expunged.
After a short conversation, in which the Lord Chan-
cellor, Lord Campbell, and Lord Radesdale took part,
the clause was amended and ordered to stand part of
theßill.

On clause 7 being proposed,
The Bishop of OXFORD moved an amendment, that
the trustees named by the judges of County Courts for
the purposes of the Act, should be members of the
Church of England.
The clause was agreed to with verbal amendments.
Clauses 8 to 18 were agreed to inclusive, with a few
♦erbal amendments.

The remaining clauses were agreed to with the excep-
tion of clause 22, which was postponed; and the House
having resumed, the other Bills on the table were for-
warded a stage, and their Lordships adjourned at a
Quarter to Twelve o'clock.