The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-11 00:00:00

11, MIR.

No doubt it would be open to the House to discuss, on a
future occasion, the form of the alteration of the naviga
tion-laws, and he (Lord J. Russell) wished to add, that
allhotigh the Government had wished to introduce a
measure in the form which had been proposed, still there
was nothing to prevent the Government considering,
during the recess, the form in which it Would hereafter
be proposed. The House had already, by a large ma
jority, expressed a decided opinion in favour of the prin-
ciple of the Government proposition, and he concurred
in the opinion which had been'expressed that the mea-
sure must.be introduced at the very earliest period of next
session.

Mr. G. R. ROBINSON denied that the House had yet
affirmed the principle of the Government measure. All
the House had yet done had been to negative the resolu-
tion proposed by way of amendment by the Right Hon.
Gentleman near him (Mr. Herries). By a postpone-
ment of the measure till next session the Noble Lord had
given the shipping interests and those connected with
the shipping ports an opportunity of fully considering
the whole question before the House was again called
upon to discuss it, and if they did not make the
House acquainted with their wishes on this great and
vital matter, the fault would rest upon themselves. A
strong feeling had already been expressed on the ques-
tion, for he found, on reference to the report of the Com-
mittee on petitions, only twelve petitions with 2,425 sig-
natures had been presented during the whole session in
favour of the Government plan, while there had been
presented 108 petitions, bearing 49,231 signatures,
against it. This fact answered the assertion which had
been made by the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr.
Bright), that all the shipping ports were in favour of
an abrogation of the navigation-laws, and he (Mr.
Robinson) asserted that 12-20ths of those connected
with the shipping interest were hostile to the change in
the law as propsed by her Majesty's Government. If
the Government yielded in that matter to the section of
the House which supported free-trade measures, his
(Mr. Robinson's) coviction was that the consequence
would be to throw open the whole trade with America
and the West Indies to the United States.
Mr. MACGREGOR considered the course taken by
the Government in postponing the Bill until the next
session was a wise and proper proceeding. He also
thought that the form of the resolution might be bene-
ficially altered, and he wished that in the interim be-
tween the close of the present and the commencement of
the next session the Government would set on foot nego-
tiations with the United States in order to effect freedom
of intercourse between the ports of the United States
and those of this country, just as though the former still
remained a portion of the British dominions. He was
also of opinion that a distinct understanding should be
come tows early as possible with the United States.
Mr. HUDSON wished to state a fact for the conside-
ration of the Government. When their proposition with
respect to the navigation-laws was announced an im-
mense number of hands employed in shipbuilding at
Sunderland had been turned out of employment, but as
soon as it was known the measure was abandoned, at
least for the present session, all the men had been gra-
dually restored to their employment. He, therefore,-
warned the Government not to renew a measure which
was calculated to bring large bodies of the labouring
classes to misery and destitution. The interests of those
classes were deserving of as much consideration as those
of the shipowner and shipbuilder. Whenever the new
measure was brought forward it would receive his most
strenuous opposition.
Mr. CLAY exTressed a hope that when the Right
Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Board of Trade next
session introduced a new measure, with reference to the
navigation-laws, he would show more consideration in it
than had been displayed in its predecessors, for the three
interests more immediately concerned—the shipowner,
the shipbuilder, and the sailor. The measure ought also
to be accompanied by a remission of the timber duties;
and if this was done, he believed the measure would not
be resisted.
Mr. BRIGHT said, in, answer to what had been stated
by the Hon. •Member for Poole (Mr. Robinson), that he
(Mr. Bright) had never said that those interested in
ships and in ports were in favour of the alteration of
those laws. What he had said was, that the population
in the ports were in favour of the Governmeet plan, and
this had been shown at a public meeting held in Sunder-
land three or four years ago, when they declared in fa-
vour of an alteration in the navigation-laws. He was
surprised the Honourable Member for Sunderland (Mr.
Hudson), who had done so much to increase
freedom of communication by railroads, should
be opposed to the same freedom by ships and merchant
vessels; and he called on the Hon. Member to exercise
on this question that good common sense which he had
directed to railroads, and not bind himself up with the
political views of the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn
(Lord G. Bentinck). He trusted the Government would
next session renew the measure with firmness and eleter
urination; if so, its success in this and the other House
of Parliament was certain.
Mr. MITCHELL observed that on a former occasion
the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) had
questioned the accuracy of certain returns made to the
Government by Sir E. Baines, the Consul at St.
Petersburgh. He (Mr. Mitchell) had received a
letter from Sir E. Baines, in which he desired him to
acquaint the House that the returns were furnished
by the Resident at the British factory at St. Peters-
burgh, and that he (Sir E. Baines) had not had, at the
time they were sent off, an opportunity of testing their
accuracy.
Captain HARRIS was understood to express a hope
that in the new measure the Government would take
oare -to secure the naval service with a sufficient
supply of hands, if necessary, from the commercial ma-
rine.

Mr. RICARDO said he did not wish to open a fresh
discussion; but he and those on his side of the House
were as zealous for the maintenance of the supremacy of
the British navy as the Hon. and Gallant Member
(Captain Harris), who on former occasions had claimed
all the patriotism for himself and those with whom he
acted. .
Mr. NEWDEGATE asked whether the resolutions
now in the hands of the chairman were a true exposi-
tion of the Bill about to be laid on the table, and in ac-
cordance with the speech with which the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Labouchere) had introduced
the resolutions to the consideration of the House ?
After a few words from Capt. HARRIS and Mr. Rl-
canDo, in mutual explanation,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, in answer to the question
put by the Hon. Member (Mr. Newdegute), he bad to
reply that he (Mr. Labouchere) should be guilty of prac-
tising a trick upon the House if the Bill was not in ac-
cordance with the resolution and with the speech with
which he had brought forward the question. At the
same time be did not mean to preclude himself from
taking advantage during the recess of such information
as he might acquire, and of amending upon it the form
of the new measure.
Mr. HENLEY inquired from the Hon. Member for
Bridport (Mr. Mitchell) whether Sir E. Baines in his
communication stated the reports he had furnished were
correct or incorrect ?
thatM r.
heMadlT; CbHuEt,LfLromreptlhied that
eanxie the letter
tythewr as si
writer
rslent on
expressed
to be set right with the House, he (Mr. Mitchell) in-
ferred that Sir. E. Baines thought them incorrect.
Mr. MACGREGOR said he had examined the re.
ports, and had found them correct, with the exception of
those from Tamboff.
The resolution was then agreed to, and a Bill founded
thereon ordered to be brought in by Mr. Bernal, Mr.
BILL.
CLOabßonucuherre,
T PaßndAtoTrd ICJE.
SRAusll.
ELECTIONSATTso
The Committee on this Bill was then resumed, Mr.
BERNAL in the chair.
It was agreed that Carlisle be inserted in the schedule.
On the motion that Lincoln be added,
Colonel SIBTHORP said he would not ask a favour
of the House in behalf of the city he represented, much
less on behalf of himself, as its representative. He was
convinced of the purity of the constituency. He had
represented them 20 years; his brother, father, uncle,
great-uncle, and great-grandfather had represented
them, the latter in 1714; and this was the first time any
member of his family had been charged with an act de-
rogatory of his character. It was the first time the
borough had been put on its trial for malpractices un-
worthy a representative body. He had no hesitation in
denying the imputation in every sense in which it could
possibly be understood. He knew how easy it was to
make charges of this kind; but it was difficult to sub-
stantiate them. It was also easy for a Government,
dressed :perhaps with a little brief authority, to im-
pugn individuals not less upright than themselves.
His father, and other members of his family, had
exercised the duties of hospitality amongst his neigh-
bours—he had followed their excellent example—and if
this was to be denounced as bribery, he contended
that to send down Commissioners to inquire into such
proceedings was nothing less than inquisitorial tyranny;
and he would tell the Noble Lord (J. Russell) that in
spite of such an inquisition, he would persist in the per-
formance of such acts as Christian charity and hospita-
lity required. The Noble Lord having stated that re-
freshments might be justifiably given on the occasion of
a county election, on what ground could he charge him
(Colonel Sibthorp) with acts of bribery because be had
exercised hospitality towards the poor ? Let the Noble
Lord beware, for sometimes a man was caught in his
own trap and lost his tail.—(Laughter.) Lincoln had
been put into the schedule ; London had not. Why was
this ? It was true the House had evidence in one case
and not in the other. Let the result of the Lincoln
Committee be what it might, he should retain the opi-
nion that this proceeding was one unworthy the Govern-
ment, and unworthy a Prime Minister, who seemed to
rejoice in the tyranny he was exercising. Why had the
Noble Lord shrunk from pressing the former Bill he had
introduced, and thus given opportunity for a fair discus-
sion ? Why bring in a Bill in this disgraceful, under-
hand manner, on which no fair discussion could take
place, but which, like many other measures introduced
at this period of the session, must be smuggled through
the House? He knew it was vain to contend against the
premeditated intention of the Noble Lord; but if a bo-
rough was to undergo a scrutiny, and to suffer punish-
ment in the person of its representative by his being un-
seated, a fresh election having taken place, no further
proceedings ought to be instituted. As well might they
send a Commsisoner to inquire into the conduct of every
member of the family of an individual who had been
convicted of a crime in a court of justice. The Noble
Lord, not satisfied with the late Member for Lincoln
being unseated, now sought to hold up the borough to
the world as unworthy of the franchise. If the Noble
Lord could reconcile his conscience to such conduct, he
(Colonel Sibthorp) rejoiced to say that he could not.
Let them send down their Commissioner, give
him what instructions they liked, and charge,
frighten, and insult the poor man, if they
chose, his opinion of the integrity and inde-
pendence of the constituency of Lincoln impressed
him with the firm conviction that they would act
as men and as Englishmen. Let them encourage every
bad character, and even reward with place those who
were prominent in this inquisitorial proceeding. It
was impossible but that the character and conduct of

- honourable men should be misrepresented and blackened
in such an inquiry. The result to the Noble Lord
would be, that he would be believed guilty of a low,
mean, dirty trick to undermine others, and thereby to
build up his own reputation for purity by means which
would tend to his disgrace. Let these Commissioners
attempt to ferret out acts which he (Col. Sibthorp) and
his friends would never be ashamed to divulge; it was
in the power of the Government to do this if they chose.
But they ought to have visited in this manner boroughs
which better deserved such an inquiry. He would not
condescend to ask the Noble Lord or the House to
exempt Lincoln from the schedule, but would
leave it to its fate, undaunted in the course he
meant to pursue. He would take no underhand
course, neither would any one of the constituency.
He lamented that the benches around him, from whose
occupants he might have looked for justice, were
deserted; the Noble Lord might, therefore, take his own
course. Let hire inflict any punishment he chose on the
city of Lincoln ; he (Colonel Sibthorp) should await the
sentence with the consciousness of having done his duty,
and with the belief that the Noble Lord would, ere long,
regret the course he was now taking.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said there was no
charge whatever in the Bill against the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member who had just sat down, neither was there
any such charge in the report of the Committee. He
said his ancestors had sat for the borough ; and he (the
Solicitor. General) hoped his descendants would do the
same, and would defend the borough as ably as be did.—
(Hear, hear.) But the principle on which this Bill pro-
ceeded was, that wherever a Committee reported the
exisence of corrupt practices, there an inquiry should:
take place to ascertain whether such practices did really'
exist. As the Hon. and Gallant Member did not intend
to divide on this question, he thought it unnecessary to
go further into the matter.
Colonel SIBTHORP repeated that his anxiety was
not for himself, but for the borough.
Mr. W. MILES said he had fully expected that the
Chairman of the Lincoln Committee would have moved
its omission from the schedule. The evidence disclosed
only three cases of bribery, out of forty-six charged ;
one a very small one, to the amount of about 10s., was
proved ; and could it bo supposed necessary that there
should be another Committee and another inquiry to find
out just the same thing ? The bribery as it was called,
was carried on by means of " free and easy clubs,"
which sat before and after the issue of the writ ; this
was the whole of the case, and nothing more would be
disclosed by the moat searching inquiry. The real
question was whether the treating had been exercised
with the intent of corrupting the voters. He thought
chat much of it would be found resolvable into the hos-
pitality the Hon. and Gallant Member had referred to.
The report of the Committee plainly stated the existence
of these clubs at perhaps half the public-houses in
Lincoln ; the names of the publicans were given ;
the fact that bread, be'er, pipes, &c., were distributed
outside the houses to "navvies" and others was proved
beyond doubt ; also that sums were paid to non-resi-
dent voters beyond what was necessary for their loss of
time; all these things were patent, and what more could be
required ? The Committee reported, that, owing to the
vagueness of the 20th clause of sth and 6th Victoria, cap.
102, various conclusions might be arrived at by Com-
mittees; and they recommended an alteration of the
law in this respect. The Hon. Gentleman here read the
clause, and -aiked if it included refreshments and travel-
ing expenses ?
The SOLICITOR. GENERAL answered in the affir-
mative.

•
Mr. MILES said it had not been so construed by
Committes generally, with whom it rested to decide
whether a payment was made to corrupt a voter.
More might be done by simplifying the law, and defin-
ing what was corruption, than by sending a host of Com-
missioners to scour the country, and find out what was
patent to all.—(Hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the lion. Member
had opened a discussion which was very fully gone into
on a former occasion, and related rather to the principle
of the Bill than to the boroughs which should be placed
in the schedule. The House had thought it desirable .to
have further information, in addition to the evidence
taken before the Election Committees ; and hence the
necessity for the inquiry proposed by this Bill. As to
the construction of the 5 and 6 Viet., it was evident
that every payment of whatever kind made to an elee- '
for was a corrupt payment; but the question arose in
every case whether the particular payment had been
made with the intention of corrupting_ the voter.- He g
hoped that The-House, having affirmed the principle of -
the Bill, would not now offer any opposition to Lincoln,
the case against which was a very strong one, being
placed in the schedule.
Mr. ANSTEY referred to the report of the Lincoln.
Committee, and said that this Bill, so far from carrying'
out their recommendation as to the simplifieation of the
law, set aside their report altogether by appointing an-
other Committee to go into the same inquiry again..
The city of London was situate precisely the same as
the borough of Horsham; let the Noble Lord (I.
Russell) take this opportunity of declaring that he
was ready to volunteer an inquiry into transactions
of which the world had heard much, and thereby to
clear his own character and that of his constituency.
—(Hear, hear.) He was not precladed from doing
this by the preamble of the present Bill. Commoto
fame said that the last election for the city of Lon-
don was characterised by enormous bribery, treating,
and personation. It was said that one thousand long-
shore men were bribed. That was reported on credible
authority.—(Name, name.) Those statements had been
made by a Member of that House, and the Noble Lord
had net denied them. It was also said that 32,0001.
had been spent at the election, and dead men were per-
sonated. He did not say that the Noble Lord was or
was not guilty of corrupt practices, but common rumour
reported that enormous bribery and corruption prevailed
at the last election for the city of London. A docin lent •
was to be handed to him in which those statements friers,
made, but it miscarried.—(Laughter.) Now, there wag
no report in the case of the city of London. But
neither was there any report in the case of Horsham.
The bribery and corruption at Horsham rested on more
rumour, and as Horsham was to bo included ins the
schedule, he wished to know whether the Noble Lord,
on the same ground, was prepared to include the city of
London?
Lord J. RUSSELL begged of the House to recollect
the circumstances under which he undertook the Bill. '
It had been urged by several Members of the House, but
more especially_by_theltight-Hon.Gentletaan the Member
for Tamwortb, that, some Member of the GOveTninent
should take charge of the Bill. lie, had declined to do,so
for a considerable time; and it was not until the Bill nall
made a cause of perpetual delay that he consented to mil-dertaka it. Whereupon the lion. and Learned Gentile-
man thought as he had undertaken the Bill he was a lair.
charge
echaagragine—st (t"hNe oc,onnos,t'i'tfureonmeyMwrh.
iAchnahteeyr)e—p
subject for attack, and made that the ground of a rper-
--(Hear, hear.) Why, whatever body he represen
the Hon. and Learned Member would be equally stile to
say that there was a rumour of corrupt practices, and
raensedri ot
fed!
would call on him to include that constituency in . the
schedule.—(Hear, hear.) He denied that becaus e he
undertook the Bill at the request of the House he was
bound to put in the place he represented, whatever
it might be, without any cause, in the ache dale,
to gratify the curiosity or malignity of any ind idusi
who might call on him to do so.—(Hear, hear.) Hie
connexion with the city of London began thits:—He • re-
presented a borough which bad elected him more than
once free of expense, and left him perfectly indepen dent
in his political course in that House. Whilst he re pre-
sented the borough of Stroud some thousands of the
electors of the city of London requested him to stand for
the city of London, the great public question of protec-
tion or free trade being then at issue. He stated to
them he had no wish to leave the constituency ha then
represented, and that he believed it would cause a feel.
ing of mortification, and a feeling that they ha.a been
unfairly and ungratefully dealt with if he left th .em for
any other body. At the same time he said that he
would accept the invitation, as the decision of the city
of London would be of great importance on the question
of free trade or protection, but that the election must be
carried on without recourse to any of those means to
which the term of corrupt practices was applied.--(Hear,
hear.) They stated that they would not practice any
illegal means to carry the election, which they intended
should be one entirely upon principle. That oleo tion
took place, and he was returned by a majority of vane.
—(" Hear, '
whetherhear, Colonel Sibthorp.) Last date
along asked him he would become a caudi date
along with three other gentlemen. He replied della he
would stand again, but that he must not be in corms alma
with any others. The election took place; there w .as a
very hard contest; but ho was elected for the se, .ond
time by a very large majority.—(Hear, hear.) No per-
son that he knew of complained of the mode in w hick
that election was conducted. He had not paid out of
his pocket more than was necessary for the legal ex-
penses of the election. If any corrupt practices had
been resorted to, why were not the means take u to
bring them to light? No management that he was
aware of had been used to prevent an election pet ition
from being presented to that House.—(Hear,
Having so conducted 'himself he did not think he was
bound to include London in the schedule because the
Hon. Gentleman said that some rumours prevails d.—
(Hear, hear.) Whether those rumours prevailed or not
he did not know—he heard them only from the 1 Hon.
Gentleman—(Laughter and cheers)--and from nol RAI
else.--(Renewed laughter.) Where the lion. Ge ntle-
man picked up those rumours he did not le now.
He proposed the Bill on public grounds, and wit bout
reference to any individual.—(" Ilear,.bear," _.from_ Col-
Sibthorp.) He could assure the Hon. and Gallant Gen-
tleman that he had no personal feeling against hi m—
(Laughter)—and had no objection that he and.his pos-
terity should represent Lincoln as long as his armee ;tors
had done. But having brought forward the Bi II on
public grounds, he did not think that he ought to pc t the
city of London in the schedule because the Hon. 'Gen-
tleman was of opinion that the place represented by the Prime Minister ought to be included.—((fear, heat.)
Colonel SIBTHORP said he never directly '-or in-
directly bribed any man, and he considered he had
therefore as good a right to be excluded from the Bill as
the Noble Lord.
Mr. W. BROWN regretted that the Noble Lord
thought it worth his while to answer the allegations of
the Hon. Member for Youghal. With regard to the
constituency represented by the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman, ho always hoard that they were anxious to get s
fat goose.—(Laughter.)
Mr. J. A. SMITH rose for the purpose of confirming
the perfectly accurate and exact statement of the Noble
Lord respecting the circumstances attending the election
for the city of London, on which occasion he was chair-
man of the Noble Lord's Committee. Every effort had
been made on his part and on the part of the other
members of the Committee to insure the election being
conducted in such a manner as would prevent even those
rumours to which the Hon. and Learned Member alluded.
He therefore repudiated in the most distinct manner the •
extraordinary and absurd charges made by the Hon.