The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-18 00:00:00

me ns of conferring vast benefits upon the people. -7
i
(Hear.) There was much truth n the observation of
the Honourable Gentleman, with respect to the Drainage
Act ; it might have been introduced earlier
there was no doubt, but it was
introduced when the emergency was found to be press-
ing. There was no truth in the assertion that
there had been no opportunity for advances of money
under that Act : he was happy to say that there
were many already ; and under the Public Works
Act from 30,0001. to 40,0001. had already been ex-
pended.—(Hear, hear.) Works undertaken under this
Act he had no doubt would add permanently to
the wealth and power of Ireland, and temporary distress
would be the means of advancing and securing her pros-
perity. He was therefore decidedly an advocate of the Pub-
lic Works Act, es a legitimate means of affording relief.
All the recommendations of the Commissioners on the
Public Works in Ireland were laid before the Govern-
ment, and they were then judged by their merits. The
Hon. Gentleman had said that an Irish Parliament, and
an Irish Government, would have acted in a different
spirit with regard to the distress in Ireland. He
(Sir J. Graham) really could not think that an Irish
Parliament would have acted in a spirit more frank,
more generous, or more just, than the British Parliament
towards Ireland under the present circumstances. He
relied on the feeling of that House ; he relied on the
feeling and generosity of the other House of Par-
liament for such measures as would relieve the
wants of the people of Ireland. He was sure
that any recommendations for public works would be met
in a proper spirit, such, indeed, as the emergency de-
manded. The Hen. Member in alluding to the landlords
of Ireland, told the House that they employed as many
labourers on their estates as their fortunes would allow.
He considered that a system of parochial relief to the
able-bodied labourer would reduce him to the degrad-
ing position of a pauper—his spirit would be lowered
and the tone of society generally deteriorated
He did not consider that a proposition of that
nature should be entertained without consi-
derable caution. It has been proposed by another
Hon. Member to call an Irish
.Parliament as early as
possible for the purpose of considering these matters.
The Government were not responsible for not doing so.
—(Laughter and cheers.) He did not consider that the
great question of reform could any Niger be postponed
with justice to Ireland; he thought that an immediate
settlement of the question was necessary to alleviate the
distress in Ireland. It was not possible to do so out of
the public funds. He did hope that they might now pro-
ceed with the first reading of the Irish Protection to Lift
Bill. He did hope that after—he would not say the un-
necessary delay—that after the five nights' debate
which they had already had upon the subject, that
Irish Members would allow the first reading to take place,
and that they might proceed with the question which
now pressed for an immediate decision. He alluded to
the proposed measures for reducing the amount of duty
upon the importation of foreign corn.—(Hear.)
Mr. E. B. ROCHE said, that although he did not
concur with the Right Hon. Baronet who had just sat
down as to the desirableness of proceeding with the
Bill, he would not detain the House at any great length
with a view of interrupting its progress. H e did not be-
lieve that the Government intended doing much for
the substantial relief of the people of Ireland. It
was quite true that the Right Honourable Baronet had
uttered sentiments of commiseration and feeling for the
Irish people. The Right Hon. Baronet had also uttered
a strong rebuke to the landlords of Ireland for not
aiding the Government to the best of their power
in relieving the wants of the people. For those
sentiments, as far as they went, he (Mr. Roche) thanked
him ; but, at the same time, he should be better pleased
did he hear the Right Honourable Baronet coming
forward as the representative of the Executive Go-
vernment of this country, and saying that the Go-
vernment did indeed, in point of fact, intend
doing something substantial towards relieving the
calamities and distresses of the people, and that it
was their intention to provide ample means for sdpply-
ing the people of Ireland with food. He did not intend
to make any allusion to the question between his Hon.
Friend the Member for Limerick and the Right Hon.
Baronet, as to whether an English or an Irish Parlia-
ment would do most for the relief of the people of Ire-
land. He would also refrain from saying anything
about the vexata questio of the poor-laws, but this
be would say that the Government of this country, if
they took upon themselves the government of Ireland,
ought to do something more plausible than making plaus
ible. and feeling speeches—they ought to do something
more substantial for supplying the people of Ireland
with food. Now the Right Hon. Baronet had thrown
himself to a certain extent (if he might use the expres-
sion) upon the in lulgence of the House with regard to
the difficulty which the Government felt in obtaining
and introducing' into Ireland food for the people.
—( Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet
had told them that there was a great want of
machinery in the Government. His Honourable Friend
the Member for Limerick had alluded to the mole in
which the Indian wheat had been distributed by the offi-
cer of the Government in the city of Cork. Now, with
out imputing to the Government any intention of aggra-
vating the distress of the people at the present
moment. he would, at the same time, tell them that the
effects of the acts of the Government, with regard to the
distribution of that corn, was to aggravate, in a very serious
degree, the distress of the people in the south of Irelard.
Now, what were the facts ?—and one fact was better
than a thousand arguments. The distress in Cork was
very great, and the gentlemen in that city assembled
and formed themselves into a relief committee, and
elected a secretary. At that time there was a depot
in Cork, containing a large supply of Indian
meal. An application was made to the secretary of the
Relief Committee in Dublin, stating the distress of the
people—distress which he (11r. Roche) knew, from his
own knowledge, was not exaggerated—and calling
upon him to allow a distribution of the Indien
meal in depot at certain prices—in fact at
cost price. The secretary, after some deli
beration, acceded to this request, and a considerable
quantity of meal was distributed among the poor of
Cork. So far, so good. But when the quantity which
they were allowed to distribute was expended they re-
newed their application to the Secretary in Dublin,
and their first letter was unanswered.—(Hear.)
On the second application, they received a letter,
which :his Hon. Friend had read to the House,
and which was written by the Dublin secretary. That
letter stated that in point of fact the Government had
changed their minds with regard to the distribution of
the meal, and that the people of Ireland were to be
thrown upon their own resources. The consequence of
this was, that an impression went abroad that not
only for the present, but fur a long time afterwards, the
Government were not prepared to do anything for re.
lieving the distresses of the people. Thus, they
created a very great discontent amens, the people,
of Ireland, because they, in the first instance.
raised their hopes by holding out to them, and in
part realising, that food would be afforded them
at reasonable prices, anti afterwards they turned round
and said in effect we have food here, but you shall nut
get Tore of it. That course, as he had said, create
feeling of dissatisfaction ; but it did even worse, for
the speculators in corn in Cork, and Liver-
pool, and other places, had the opportun'ty
of reading this letter, as well as those to whom it wa
addressed, and they naturally enough said to themselves
this food is to be shut up for some months still ; and
they therefore raised the prices of Indian meal. Those
prices were raised in consequence of this letter which
bad been received from Dublin.

Sir J. GRAHAM seemed to express dissent.
Mr. ROCHE—The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to
express dissent, but he (Mr. Roch:,) had a painful know-
ledge of the fact, because he was then in treaty for the
purchase of a large amount of Indian meal
for his own people in Ireland, and he was aware that
it was much higher than it had been a fortnight ago
He entreated the Right Honourable Baronet to con3ider
the dissatisfaction and discontent that this pitifti.
mode of distributing re;ief in Ireland was ere
sting among the poorer classes in that country.
It was impossible for any man to exaggerate the distre-:s
and the want of food that existed in every district it
Ireland. He knew himself that in a district of thr
county of Cork, which for years past had sup
plied the whole of the country with food, at this
moment the people were actually consuming for pre-
sent use the only potatoes they had kept for
seed for the following year. He would wish to impress on
the Right Hon. Baronet the consideration, that if it were
possible for Government to give any supply of India',
meal, there never was a time when it would be of so
much importance to the people, as it would allow them to
lay up something for the following year. tie hoped he hae
misunderstood the Right Honourable Baronet, or that
he bad misinterpreted that part of his speech which
conveyed to his mind the impression that, in point of
fact, the supply of Indian corn in the country was a
mere trifle—be could say that it would give him great
pleasure. In answer to the Right Honourable Baronet,
as far as his individual experience went, the land
lords in his part of the country—always exc?pting the
absentees—were doing what in their power lay towards
relieving the distress, of the surrounding people, but
they found that it was almost an impossibility to obtain
food for them. He understood everything relating to
practical farming. He commenced very young,
__e and he
had farmed 1,000 acres before he was nineteen. ll.had
since farmed larger quantities of land, and at this mo-
ment he had the management of from 3,000 to 4,000
acres. Re employed, at a moderate computation, over
400 people. He paid them, but could not give them
food, and every one knew that they could not eat the
money. It was almost an absolute impossibility to obtain
food; in fact, the difficulty was so great, that as soon as
he could be free from an important duty which he had
to perform, and which he might perform in the course of
next week, and perhaps not so soon—(a Hear, hear,"
from the Opposition)—he should go to Liverpool, in
0r4(7 to obtain a supply of food for his own people.
Hrtrusted, therefore, that the Government would im-
mediately turn their attention to the increase of the
store of Indian meal, for it was upon that alone that
a great portion of the population depended for their
food, nd the obtaining any other kind of food
WWI qtAte out of the question. They would understand
this when he said that the best description of potatoes
cost one shilling per stone, and that ten-pence
was commonly given for them, which was altog qher
under the mark. The regular price would be
threepence for the common sort, and fourpence and five-
peace for the best. He did not mean to say that the
people commonly obtained potatoes at that price, for
that price was merely nominal, and if he were to
go to a man who had 100 tons in his possession, his
answer most probably would be that he did not know
whether he had sufficient for his own seed. And this
was the case with every portion of Ireland, and he
believed that if they were permitted to use
their seed potatoes, they would not have
three weeks' consumption remaining throughout the
country.—(Cheers.) He had made it his business to
inquire, from h'is own neighbourhood right up to the
mountainous districts, and what he bad just asserted he

believed to be the plain fact, namely, that after the con- I
sumption of the seed-potatoes then would not remain
three week's supply. He hoped the Government would
excuse him, for he did not mean to read them a lecture,
but he did sincerely trust that they would not lose a
moment in applying to America for a sufficient supply
of Indian meal. It would be better to do this now than
to wait until the eleventh hour, and leave the people of
Ireland the sad alternative of lying down by the road-
side to perish, or of turning round upon the country
gentlemen, and taking possession of their property, and
committing other outrages of which they and the Go-
vernment would most bitterly repent. He was the more
anxious upon this point, as he saw no promise in the
Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, and he could not there-
fore refrain from remembering an old saying, that soft
words butter no parsnips. He trusted, however, that
the Government would take some such steps as these
which he had recommended.
Sir R. PEEL said he could assure the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down that her Majesty's Government
thadhemelancholy
very
an recentlyeh oly p t
treceivedthe fullest
in
of
Ireland, and he begged to remind the Hon. Gentleman
e had
that it was not more than a fortnight ago that the
Government were endeavouring to defend themselves
from charges of exaggeration upon this subject. The
House should also remember that Government had been
devoting themselves earnestly to the introduction of
measures for the amelioration of this distress ; and with
a view to convincing the House that distress did exist,
they had ordered certain returns to be laid upon the
table ; and when that was done, it was stated to be all
exaggeration, while in fact those returns had just been
confirmed by the Hon. Gentleman who had just come
over from that country.—(Hear, hear.) The charges
that the Government were attempting to mitigate that
distress, not by practical measures, but by fine speeches,
he would meet in this way. No doubt the Government
would be highly culpable to pursue such a course ; but
he did think they should get credit fur endeavouring to
avoid such measures a 3 might perhaps aggravate instead
of mitigate those evils.—(Hear, hear.) If by the inter-
ference of the Government, any measures could be intro-
duced that would have a practical effect, he would admit
that no consideration of a pecuniary nature should weigh
for a moment with the Government.—(Hear, hear.) But
in such a matter the interference of the Government
might have a very injurious effect. He could assure the
House that the utmost caution should be exerc'sed by
the Government in dealing with such measures, lest by a
temporary mitigation of the distress, they might be lay-
ing the foundation for much greater misery hereafter.—
(Hear, hear.) Now, let him take the last observation of
the Hon. Gentleman. He said, " for God's sake,
send over to America for more Indian corn."
Let them take care that they did not interfere with
the natural and legitimate supply of this commodity and
the exertions of individuals. In the early part of No-
vember, when no steps were taken in reference to an
alteration in the corn.law—when Indian meal was un-
known—many persons then questioned the authority of
the Government to interfere. The Government, how-
ever, sent out an order, seeing that there was a prohi-
bitory duty on the article, to bring in a very large
quantity of it ; but when Indian meal could be imported
at a Is. per quarter, it did not follow that the measure
which was wise and expedient in November last would
be wise now. The first effect which the pro-
ceeding would have would be to raise the price of Indian
meal, and the second would be embarrassment to the
merchant. He mentioned these things as a proof that
the Government were influenced, not by an indifference
to the necessities of the people, but by a sincere con-
viction that a compliance with the recommendations made
to them would do injury, and aggravate the existing evils.
At the present moment oatmeal was one-third higher in
price than during the last two or three years, so that by
introducing Indian corn they were not driven to subsist
on a high priced, but on a generous and moderate priced
food. He did trust that the introduction of this corn
would give the Irish people a taste for a higher descrip-
tion of food, and increased industry to obtain it, and, in
fact, lay the foundation of a better state of things in Ire-
land. By preventing the Irish labourer from placing entire
dependence on the prevalent Irish food—the watery po•
tato—would confer great and lasting good upon them.
—(Cheers.) If the Government had announced their in-
tention of entirely supporting the whole Irish people
during the prevalence of the distress now extant in Ire-
land, they would have done much mischief—more than
any step whatever—because they would thereby have in-
duced benevolent individuals to relax their exertions in
behalf of the poor.—(Hear, hear.) If the Government
were at once to relieve the Irish clergy of all denomina-
Liens, Irish farmers, all abate the labouring classes, who
now lent their aid to support the indigent, from the
moral obligations imposed upon them, they would
have insured all the evils of famine.—(Hear,
hear.) It was impossible the Government could
support four millions of people. 'the Hon. Gen-
tleman advised them to be more liberal, and to make a
declaration of their means in order to obtain a more ex-
tended support of the Government measures, and said
that many absentee landlords were not performing that
duty which resident landlords were performing. He
(Sir Robert Peel) thought it unfair to draw this distinc-
tion, because he knew many absentee landlords who
were very generous to the poor.—(Hear, hear.) But if
the Government were to express their intention to re-
lieve the wants of the whole of the suffering Irish peo-
ple, those who had heretofore relieved their wants would
nave excused their moral obligations by saying that
the Government bad unlimited means at their com-
mand, and might, by commissions of inquiry, have full
and accurate information with respect to their condition
—would thank the Government for relieving them of the
responsibility, and they would take proper measures to
alleviate their sufferings. This might occur. It would be
utterly impossible for them to relieve cases of individual
distress occurring in the wilds of Donegal or Mayo, and
therefore they must look to all proprietors, resident and
non-resident, for support ; and it was not on the
Government that the first responsibility rested.—
(Hear, hear.) It was only through their aid
they could hope to effect any good. It might be very
well for the Hon. Gentleman to say that he held him
(Sir R. Peel) responsible for every death that occurred.
These were dangerous words; they ought not to be made
use of ; but they could not make the Government pri-
marily responsible ; it must rest with those who either are
or ought to be resident upon the spot, and upon those
especially who, by reason of their non-residence, ought
to be more liberal in their contributions. Not by any
means wishing to shrink from any responsibility which
might be attached to him either officially or individually,
he could not allow the responsibility to be attached to an
Executive Government which really had no means to
effect anything without their aid.—(Hear, hear.) And
if the statement was true that the people were eating
those potatoes which ought to be preserved for food, was
it not a sufficient vindication of the Government for
asking a permanent settlement of the corn question?
This was his answer to the speech of the Hon. Member
for Limerick. He had no wish whatever to say any-
thing with respect to the Corn Bill during the discu,sion
of this measure. He wished the Corn and Coercion
Bills to be kept separate and distinct.—(Hear, hear.)
On whatever other points Hon. Members might differ
he thought that upon this they would be agreed,
viz. the necessity of doing something towards giving
permanent relief to the people of Ireland. There might
be differences of opinion entertained as to the efficacy
of the measures which the Government had introduced
for the relief of the people of Ireland. He could assure
the House that it Ras the wish of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to meet the wants of the people of Ireland. Day
after day and night after night they were occupied
with the subject of the present distress in Ireland,
and it was their earnest desire that the remedial
measures which they had introduced should not b:-
ineffectual.—(hear, hear.) It had not been a fear
of expense that had dissuaded the Government from
bringing forward such measures of relief as had been
alluded to by the Hon. Member for Limerick. The
fear under which the Government laboured was, that lest
their resources might not be sufficiently efficacious ;
;3e could assure the House that it was their anxious
wish to relieve, as much as in them lay, the distresses of
rho people of Ireland.—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. E. B. ROCHE said that the Right Hon. Baronet had
niisungerstood him, and bad consequently misrepresented him
when quoting his language. He ( Mr. Roche) had not called
upon the Government to come forward and support the people
of Ireland, nor had he asked them to take upon themselves the
entire responsibility of supporting the people of Ireland. The
Irish Members did not ask the Government to extend eleemosy-
nary assistance to the people of Ireland. What he had said was
this, that the Government had themselves come forward as the
feeders of the Irish people during their present calamitous dis-
tress, and that having done so they ought not to have stopped
halfway. The Government ought to tell the landlords of Ire-
land for certainty that in Liverpool, or some other places, they
could obtain food for the support of their fellow-countrymen.
Sir R. PEEL—That is just what I want to have. I want
foreign wheat at 4s. per quarter to mix with oats at about
ls. 6d. per quarter.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE—That may do for another year.
Sir R. PEEL—No; but for this year.
Mr. CALEB POWELL said that by the Right Hon.
reyo measuresr e
were
s
Baronet's own showing the Government had in this instance'
eer.'
e
l
to
age ahladminiltiazdupcherad sce.,e;c.ipvleacwehdenthceonecialriattobf
absolutely necessary.—( Hear, hear.) Why did not the G
vernment press forward the
Corn Bill, instead of introducing
this coercive measure ?

Sir W. SONIEiiiiLLE was exceedingly glad to hear that
the Government intended to augment
ris the funds that had been
zoarr.beel he only thing they
raised for the relief of the Irish
thbep
sobeasdto find em-
could do would be to improve
ployment for the poor. A great deal couldrs
ebeinertehiies
manner. He hoped the report on the state of the harbours
Ireland would be produced as early as possible, in order that
something might be done.
Mr. COLLETT wished to make a few remarks on the sub-
ject under consideration. It was in reference to the finding of
employment on the railways proposed to be constructed in Ire-
land. He did not refer to any of the railway Bills of the pre-
sent session, but to those passed last year, and especially to two,
the Waterford and Limerick and Dundalk and Enniskillen rail-
ways. These were two excellent lines, but the state of things
was such, the cals could not be got, and the works were in
consequence delayed. If they could get some assistance by the
advancement of money on loan, great relief would be afforded.
While he was desirous of doing everything he could to meet
the wants of the Irish people, he supported the Coercion Bill
as a measure necessarily required, but only of a temporary
character.
M. O'CONNELL would not have addressed the House
had nut the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) referred to
the difference between hi. Hon. Friend (Mr. Smith O'Brien)
and
him (Mr. O'Connell) on the subject of outdoor relief.
Whatever opinion he had expressed respecting out-door relief,
it was quite clear that the
presenteetev7
reliefo oo in
personsthe w poor-houses
erethat
ai n
Ireland was altogether inada t
were relieved by the poor-houses at ' present, while there were
2,300,000 in a state of destitution.—Hear,
costar,
9hoear. ) The
establishments for these 37,000 personshad,oool. This
would show the inadequacy of the system of relief. Still,
he thought nothing could be more ruinous to Ireland than
a system of out-door relief, if the Right Hon. Baronet
thought proper to propose it, in the present state of Ireland
he (Mr. O'Connell) was willing to sacrifice his opinion and
support it.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had
also referred to the failure of the drainage system in Ireland,
but that was not attributable to the plans of the Government,
hut to other causes. He must say the Government had
shown every disposition to relieve the condition of Ireland,

and that the course they had taken had been fully vindicated
that night ; still he thought they had not done enough. The
distre s was overwhelming, disturbances had broken out, and
might extend so as to render all their future precautions una-
vailing. They had a fearful period before them; and notwith-
standing what they had done, they would do well to put in
operation the Board of Works, and also to consider whether
it would not be well to appoint a Commissioner to inquire into
the resident landlords, and the absentees, with the object of
rating them On order to meet the present crisis, care Leing
taken to discriminate between the two classes of landlords.
Their duty would not be performed unless they did everything
in their power to counteract the alarming state of things ' • and
in doing so, they ought not to despond, as a feeling of that
kind going abroad was calculated to do great injury.—(Hear.)
Mr. M'CARTHY gave the Government credit for an
anxious desire to relieve the wants of Ireland, still he had to
complain of the way in which the commissary at Cork had
given out relief. He had only supplied Indian corn for a day,
and had refused further supplies, or to send it into the interior.
He would ask the Right Hon. Baronet if he was aware that

Indian meal, when grciund, was liable to fermentation and con-
sequent loss? He would also press the Right Hon. Baronet
for information as to the instructions the commissary at Cork
was acting under in withholding the supplies. He was of
opinion that the Government should allow Indian corn to be
sold at the cost price.
Colonel VERNER said that the scarcity described to
prevail in the south of Ireland did not exist in that portion of
the country in which he had lately been. At the last assizes
of the county of Down the grand jury did not consider it neces-
sary to enforce the provisions of the present Bill, the state of
the county not requiring it. He had been in the county of
Fermanagh for five weeks, and he had never heard of any
scarcity—in fact it was remarked that never since the war was
there such a good time for tne paying of rents.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN wished to explain. He denied
that in opposing the Coercion Bill he was delaying the measures
for the relief of the people of Ireland. The responsibility of
the delay lay with the Ministers, not with him. The Right
Hon. Baronet had misunderstood what he said about local
rates—he had always contended that the landlords should be
compelled to support the destitute, and that a general tax on
property was necessary and proper for that purpose.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said he rose to call the attention
of the Government to a document which had been transmitted
to him, and which referred to a point that had not been touched
upon. The Hon. Gentleman had read the document in
question, which was to the effect that it would not be possible
to supply Indian corn meal fast enough to the people, from a
deficiency of mill-power in that part of the country. It stated
that Sir R. Peel had caused to be purchased 100,000/. worth
of Indian corn at the rate of a penny a pound, which made
24,000,0001b5. All that had been imported into Cork was
11,000,0001b5., of which a very small quantity had been dis-
tributed, the commissary refusing to supply any more at
present. In addition to this quantity it was said the only stock
at present in England was 45,000 quarters. To give 4,000,000
of people a pound of meal each, 14,825 barrels would be re-
quired. He (Mr. J. O'Connell) would not pledge himself as
to the truth of this statement, but he had received it from a
person who knew a good deal of the county of Cork, and con-
siderably acquainted with the state of the country. He
(Mr. J. O'Connell) would say a few words on the general
subject. The question was one of great difficulty, and
great allowance should be made on bath sides.—( Cries of
" Hear, hear.") He gave the Government full credit
for an anxious and earnest desire to do the best they
could in the present crisis ; and though the present discussion
had been deprecated, he thought it would be useful, as it would
show the House was not inattentive to the necessities of the
case; and that if the Government withheld definite information,
it was because they thought such a course would impede useful
operations. He was sorry to hear the Right Hon. Baronet
say that the introduction of Ir:dian corn would give the people
of Ireland a taste for better food. No good would arise if the
taste was only given to them for a moment ; the only way to
give them a better taste was to provide them with better means.
It was poverty that inevitably drove them to inferior food ;
give them better means of purchasing food, and they would soon
have a taste for it. He had just another remark to make.
With respect to what had been said about the importance of
the resident landlords in meeting the evils of Ireland, he saw in
that a strong argument bearing in favour of a local Parliament.
Mr. FITZGERALD said that from the accounts received
that day, disturbances had taken place in Tipperary, ( lonmel,
and sever,' other towns in Ireland, in which the people had
risen and helped themselves out of the bakers' shops. The
state of things was so dreadful that the military had been called
out, as well as the police employed to suppress the disturbances.
He would ask, bad the agents of the Government acted
according to instructions in refusing to send food
into the interior, so as, by granting a supply, to prevent
the occasion of the people resorting to such illegal means.
Feeling that political agitation contributed to agrarian out-
rage, he was anxious to remove all causes or excuse for it. He
was anxious to restrict political agitation to all causes which
had nothinz to do with personal interests.—( Hear.) It was
impossible for a people accustomed to combine against the
oppression from oligarchical communities, accustomed to resist
the power of authority which in their eyes was backed only by
selfish motives. Was it necessary for him to describe the
present condition of Ireland ? They lived in a state of feverish
and unhealthful excitement, and the consequence was that the
people could not resist the temptation to oppose the claims for
even legitimate authority. He for one would not be content
to rest upon vague promises. Would they give equal rights
with themselves ? Would the Right Hon. Baronet consuinate
the Emancipation Act ? Would he legislate for that extremity
which was fast impending and not wait until that extremity
arose ? Would he remove that cause of differenee which was
exhibited in the portion of the Anglican Church in Ireland ?
That was tl.e base of their national disseverence and of poli-
tical subservience. Why was it that no Member of the Catholic
faith was not possessed of a place in the Cabinet? Was it
not true that to be associated with them was a signal for
his expulsion from the body to which he properly belonged ?
But it was the business of him who was in possession of power

to abridge this struggle. The sectarian policy it was that
deprived the Government of the national confidence, but if
they would ameliorate their political and religious
wrongs, they would confederate with them, and act
in concert in the repression of outrage and the stop-
page of agrarian imposition. If they would not, how-
ever, then the Government must expect that the Irish people
would refrain from any such concert, and they would not only
not refrain, although by the doing so they might not prevent.
but be the cause of the increase of crime. Then as to the Bill
itself, he had great objections. He thought that the punish-
ment of transportation was too great for the offence met by
this Bill—an evil which he conceived might be justly met by a
longer or shorter period of imprisonment. And, further, as to
the expenses of this Bill. Why was it that the tenants on the
several estates were to bear an expense to which, in justice,
they were in no way liable? He trusted that the House
would not accede to the Bill in its present state, because, with.
out some sufficient provision for the welfare of the people of
Ireland it would in effect be totally inoperative.—( Cheers. )
Mr. CALEB POWELL thought that this Bill would be
altogether useless, unless there was some assurance of the re-
moval of that abuse which rendered the people of Ireland sub-
servient to the rule of a Church which was abhorrent to their
principles, and without the abrogation of which no impartial
effect could be produced. He had come to this resolution
partly in consequence of the insufficiency cf the evidence
which the Government had given for this Bill, and he especially
alluded to a certain district in Limerick for the returns of out-

rages in that district, although he had moved for them on the
23d of last month, and the officials had not been able to furnish
them. Now, with regard to the ease of Sir David Roche.
What was the fact ? Why, he had been informed by a gentle-
man who was in the carriage at the time, that Sir D. Roche
had not been fired at at all.— (" But what does Sir D. Roche
say ?" from the Treasury Benches.—( Great laughter.)
—He believed that Sir D. Roche was lying
down in the seat of the carriage at the moment. There cer-
tainly was an explosion, but no missile struck the carriage—
( Laughter)—and he understood from the people of
Limerick themselves that it was a ruse of the agents of the
police. Now he would turn to the case of the sailor, who was
said to have been beaten to death. Why, as to that, it ap-
peared that the man was absolutely assailed by two milkmaids,
such as those who mixed water and chalk together in Caven-
dish. square. —( Laughter, ) He knew that it was said that two
men had assailed him, and that he was in a dying state, but he
had been assured by persons acquainted with all the facts, that
there was not a stronger man in the county of Limerick at the

present mgpient.—(Laughter from the Slieisterial benches.)
Still furthcq., with respect to the alleged violence done upon a
man who held land in Tipperary. From what be had heard
there was no ground for these assertions, and the Right Hon.
Baronet would act upon very insufficient grounds, if
he allowed these to influence him in bringing in a Coer-
cion Bill for any part of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
There was another case which the Right Hon. Baronet had
quoted, as furnishing a ground fbr the introduction of the mea-
sure. The Right Hen. Baronet had said, that a respectable
gentleman, of the name of Wilson, had been obliged to leave
his place of residence in the county of Clare, through fear of
being made a victim of lawlessness by the tenants around him.
He (Mr. Powell) had known Mr. Wilson for many years, and
had found him to be a very respectable and intell:gent gentle-
man, and he really believed that he was of very great service
to the district in which he formerly resided. But he (Mr.
Powell) felt perfectly certain that that gentleman need enter-

, .
tain no such fears as had been alluded to by the Right
Baronet on his introduction of the measure. There were no
reasons why he should not exercise all the legitimate rights of
his property in Clare, without entertaining the slightest fear
of molestation on the part of the surrounding tenantry. In.
deed, he (Mr. Powell) happened to knew, that the causes
which induced Mr. Wilson to change his residence were en-
tirely of a private nature, which he need not mention in that
House.—(Hear, hear.) And yet the Right Hon. Baronet
had referred to the case as evidence that the landed gentry of
Ireland were driven from their estates in consequence of the

lawless state of the peasantry. And even supposing that
Mr. Wilson had been obliged to retire from his resi-
dence in the county of Clrae, from the fears
alluded to by the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, did it follow that other gentlemen

should entertain similar fears, and be drives to similar deter-
minations? He knew many gentlemen of property that lived
in the district from which Mr. Wilson had removed, and yet
no attacks whatever had been made upon their lives or pro-
perties, although he must admit that his co-religionists, the
Protestant gentry of Ireland, were excessively inclined to pos-
sess and exercise arbitrary powers over their Roman Catholic
fellow-subjects. Ile also knew a gentleman who had made a
great fortune by his trade in the city of Limerick ; and in a
conversation which he had with him lately, he asked him whe-
ther he felt the necessity of giving to the magistrates of that
district additional coercive powers against the people for the
purpose of preserving life and property, when he replied that
he certainly did not; that he had not a single fire-arm in his
house—and that frequently the bars and windows of his house
were left unbolted and open at night, and that he had never
suffered either in person or property by any acts of the pea-
santry.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the Right Hon.
Baronet had admitted that the cases of assassination of the
higher classes of society in Ireland were not so numerous nor
so shocking as those which had occurred in England.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM—I never said that.
Mr. POWELL said the Right Hon. Gentleman had said
something very like it, or he was very much mistaken. The
Right Hon. Baronet would perhaps admit that he had said
something to this effect—" Perhaps, after all, these eau, of
assassination in Ireland are not so very much out of the way, or
so very numerous, but then Vie people want to be protected
from each other, and that is what our measure is calculated to
effect " But where were the petitions of the people praying
the House to pass this so-called protective measure? The
Right Hon. Gentleman, in introducing this measure, made a
very sweeping charge against the morality of the people of Ire-
land. He stated that they were in such a state of social dis-
organisation that the ordinary law was insufficient to meet their
lawless acts.
Sir JANIES GRAHAM—I did not say so.
Mr. POW ELL—Then why did not the Government leave
the people of Ireland to the ordinary operation of the law?—
( Hear, hear.) He really could not feel any gratification in
ncorimsoensrceof
committedadducing arguments of recrimination for the purpose of con•
trasting the crimes of the people of Ireland with the outrages
con-
solation to
crimes of. equal, and even greater, num-
tEhningklisthhapteoipflethereltwwearge
ber and atrocity committed in this country.—(Hear;hear.)
'in the very
Why, was there not a
committed
hbiymthtoe
didthe Prime Minister of that
day
lobby of that House, and
with a measure for the coercion of
in Ireland there were
down to the House
Prime Minister assassinated
come
the English people?
when his Private Secre-
tarythe Crown propose a similar measure t • 7 n
tre Yr es Pans4r, ,411
Or did the present. Prime Minister of
was assassipated in the very ceu