The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-07 00:00:00

ance of the present motion. He could not conceal from . change their sentiments in favour of it.—(l'lear, hear, and
himself that the transference of large numbers of voters loud calls for a division.)
from the counties to the town constituencies would be Mr. NEWDEGATE rose amidst renewed uproar, despite
productive of a great and a hazardous change—for by of which he proceeded to make some remarks in reply, as
that means the influence of the counties weuld be trans- we understood him, to Mr. Osborne, who, he said, had
ferred to the towns. The latter certainly had no right to committed a mistake when he said that they (the agri-
complain of the manner in which the Reform Bill had culturists) had carried on their agitation by means of
treated them. And it would be well to remember that it hired lecturers. He begged to remind those Honourable
the country gentlemen were to be eliminated from the Gentlemen who were now so anxious for reform, that
House, there would then exist great and well-grounded they had a few years ago attempted to disfranchise
cause of complaint that landed property was not duly repre- nearly all the county voters of Warwickshire, and many
sented there. The counties would never submit to see their in and about Birmingham, and that they had served
Members transferred to the towns, without creating a great 23,000 notices of objection to voters. The Honourable
sediment of discontent. He was aware that a gradual Member for Manchester had said that no Government
change of this nature was operating in this country, as it should govern the country that did not represent the
had done in the middle ages. But do not let it be too feelings of Manchester and Yorkshire, and take them as
sudden, and above all do not operate such a change merely their guide ; and he begged also to remind them that
because forty gentlemen met at a clubhouse in St. James's- they had created no less than 1,600 voters in the West
square and said it must be done. Whatever might be said Riding of Yorkshire, thereby exercising as great corntp-
ot the constitution of the House, he knew that in the ulti- tion as any that had existed in tke days of Gatton and Old-
mate resort it did represent the people, and he believed Sarum.—( Divide, divide.)
there was no true demand for a greater representation. Mr. VILLIERS said he was not going at that hour to no-
It was true that a great preponderance was given to the Lice the attacks that had been made upon the party to which
aristocracy in that House; but that preponderance was he belonged, nor to speak upon a question which was not be-
freely given—it was given because the people liked the fore the House. But as he intended to vote for his Hon.
aristocracy. There was no doubt the people of England Friend's proposition, and as he did not agree with some of
loved a Lord. There was no question that they preferred the terms of it, and still less agree in some of the reasons
having an aristocracy. Take the instance of the Noble Lords which had been adduced in support of it, •he would state
who sat in that House. Observe the habitual deference those which induced him to vote for it. All its supporters
which was paid to them.—(Laughter and ironical cheers.) were agreed upon household suffrage; but they did not know
Did any one ever see a Lord put down in that place?— what household suffrage was. They were agreed, however,
(Laughter, and Hear, hear.) He never did; and if people upon the principle cf an extension of the franchise, and he
would persist in giving such privileges to the aristocracy, thought it was wise to recognise that policy, because they
they had no right in that House to complain of the aristo- could not in these days safely withhold the right of suffrage
cratic elements which it contained. For all the reasons he from the people. He believed they had a right to it, and be
had stated, he should not vote for the resolutions of the could not discover the reason for refusing it
Hon. Member for Montrose; nor did he think they were when it was demanded. But he wished to steer
called for. But he certainly did admit that the recent events clear of one subject. He did not think that
of the Continent of Europe might leave traces of their oc- legislation would have been very different if the suffrage had
currence in England; and that if in France, Germany, and been different since the time of the Reform Bill.—(Cheers
Italy a share of political power was given to every man, he from the Opposition benches.) He did not believe that their
could not deny that au echo of those events might resound legislation would have been very different if the Reform Bill
throughout the land, and that they must be prepared to had not been passed at all.—( Renewed cheers.) He believed
meet the demand, and to accede in some measure to the the House was much impressed by public opinion, and their
cry that would be sent forth for increased political privi- sentiments much formed by public discussion—(Hear, hear)
leges on the part of the people. lie thought that such an —and he believed there was nothing which was honestly de-
agglomerated measure, es that proposed by the Hon. Mem- sired by the country which that House would not give.—
bar for Montrose; could only encourage the people in falla. (Loud cheers.) But he thought it would increase the public
cious hopes, and therefore ho felt bound to record his vote confidence in the House if the suffrage were extended. As
against it. to the existing system of bribery and intimidation' they had
Mr. S. HERBERT, who spoke in a very low tone of found no remedy whatever as yet for it. It had been
voice, said that he was not about to trouble the House with brought before the House more during the present
a very lengthy speech. His only reason for making any ob. year than in any other; and when there was a remedy pro-
servatiou, was his anxiety to show that in the vote he was posed for it by his Honourable Friend, it was not, in his
about to give he was actuated by very different motives and opinion, right to resist it.. But he thought that extending
held different opinions from many with whom he the franchise to the people, without giving suitable protec-
I would retire into the lobby. He was not one of tion for the free exercise of it, would be doing no good, but
those who believed that the present system of representation rather tending to demoralise them. He reminded the House
was perfect, or that there were not many points in which it of the tyranny that was frequently exercised over voters by
might be amended.—(Hear, hear.) But it was not neces- those who had power to influence them. He believed that
sary to go deeply into that part of the subject, because it had that system existed quite as much in the towns as elsewhere.
been already most clearly, wisely, and ably elucidated by the Many people thought they bad a right to deal with their
Noble Lord at the head of the Government. He had heard tenants, or any persons dependent upon them, as they liked.
with great pleasure that Noble Lord give up the doctrine of He thought they should endeavour to effect a change of that
finality in legislation.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Herbert) was system, and perhaps they might be able to do so by making
one of those who regretted that when the representation was such practicessinfamous. But as the practice was at pre-
altered the suffrage was diminished. He feared it had been sent, every man who had tenants, even the owners of small
too much the habit to confound means with ends, and to argue cottages, expected that his tenants would vote as he
as if the objects of free institutions were to give the people pleased.—(Lord cries of "Hear, hear.") No places pro-
votes, not to obtain for them good government, whereas the bably suffered so much from the practices as large towns,
former was only an incident, the latter the real object and owing to the intimidation exercised over shopkeepers
end of such institutions. He thought they were bound to by those who were in the habit of dealing with them;
ask themselves whether they had that system of legislation in fact, it was a constant struggle between custom and con-
which was most capable of carrying on the government of science. The consequence was, that a quarter of a million of
the country; and secondly, whether their legislation was voters now on the register, and who were entitled to vote,
such as to carry with it the sympathy of the great body of had not voted at the last election, and the fact was that to
the people. He regretted the abolition of many franchises such persons as he referred to the franchise was a curse, and
which had existed before the Reform Bill; for instance, he not a blessing. He must, therefore, differ with his Ilonout-
regretted what was called the potwalloping qualification.— able Friend, who said that the extension of the franchise
(Hear, hear.) He thought it desirable that those classes was the first thing to be obtained, and that the ballot was
should' be represented, as he believed that among other good merely a secondary consideration. He believed that the
things it would go far to cure them of their hero worship. ballot was a measure which ,gemerally speaking, all wealthy
The power of sending a man to Parliament would cure the people were most afraid of ;it would be the measure that
working classes of forming inordinate expectations, and their would strike most directly at their interests, and it would be
representatives of the equally mischievous habit of making the most generous concession that could be made by that
fallacious promises.—(Hear, hear.) He wondered whether House. He was sorry his Hon. Friend had not brought for.
the Hon. Member near him, when he went back to his ward a proposition for the ballot separate from his other pro-
constituents in Nottingham, after haying been so long positions. He believed that if he made such a proposition,
in the immediate proximity of the Thames without setting he would have a larger division than he would have on that
it on fire, as he had promised—(A laugh)—would be able night, when he had included other questions of a more diffi-
to give his constituents a satisfactory account of his hack- cult nature.—(Cries of "Divide.")
slidings. He would most likely find that a more diffi- Mr. HUME rose to reply amid loud calls for a division.
cult task than telling an excited people what he would He assured the House that he should not long detain it, but
do if he only were in Parliameut.—(Laughter.) There was there were a few points which he felt called upon to notice.
one point connected with this motion which had not been With regard to what had fallen from his Honourable Friend
touched on before, but which, in his opinion, should who had just sat down he could assure him he was altogether
not be overlooked—namely, the effects which the introduc- under a mistake when he thought there was any difference
Lion of similar measures had produced in neighbouring coon- amongst those who supported his resolution. There was
tries. The Hon. Member for Montrose had said that Eng- merely a difference with reference to the extent to which the
land, which had been formerly in the van of all countries in suffrage ought to go, and they were anxious to ascertain
the adoption of free institutions, was in the rear; and the what the people of the country desired to obtain.—(Hear,
Noble Lord at the head of the Government had with great hear.) He though his Hon. Friend was under a mistake in
wisdom said in reply to that, " wait for the result."— supposing the ballot would be a remedy in the present state
(Cheers.) Now, without waiting long, he would call the of things. He (Mr. Hume) had stated distinctly in the
attention of the House to a few of the effects which such outset that he thought the extension of the suffrage was the
measures had already produced in France. The Hon. principal point, but that he would not agree to take that
Member for the West Riding had said that the measure except it was accompanied by the ballot. He said
great object of extending the franchise would be to re- he thought the two measures were inseparable, and that all
duce the expenses. Had that been the effect in Paris? must be carried to ensure to the, people that efficient reform
They had increased their army by 30,000 men, besides which they required. He might possibly refrain from
320,000 National Guards. They had, in fact, under tkat saying one word with respect to any objection that bad been
peaceful democratic Government the greatest amount of men made, or any answer that had been given in reference to the
in arms that had ever been known in the time of peace. Had points he kad made, but as there were many Hon. Gentle-
democratic government diminished jobbing ?—(Hear, hear.) men who did attend to hear what his simple propositions
There were the Ateliers Natiunaux, which were neither more were, he begged again to state in a few words what he had
nor less than sinecure situations for 100,000 men.—(Hear, proposed. Ile said that Parliament ought to represent the
hear.) There had been, no doubt, sinecures before the re- whole community, he said it did not represent the whole
volution, but nothing like the enormous job of the ateliers. community, and he contended that no man in the country
The Hon. Member for Middlesex had spoken of family corn- ought to be taxed without either through himself or his re-
pacts, and complained of the number of appointments presentative authorizing that taxation. He said the repre-
divided among persons rather curiously and inconveniently eentation, such as it is, was most unequally divided, and that
related together.—(Laughter.) But things were much there could be no protection whatever to the property of the
worse in Paris. Ile had seen it stated that the editor of the country when they saw that seven or eight boroughs, with
Nationai, M. Marrast, with his printers and publishers, small constituencies, could send as many Members to that
divided amongst them public emoluments to the amount of Ileuee as would overrule the whole representation of London,
40,000/.—(Hear, hear.) Now, in England, where the do- Liverpool, and Edinburgh.—(llear, hear.) lie did not See
niestic feelings were strongest, they would prefer that per- any difficulty in providing a remedy, if the Douse would
sons bound together by the recognised ties of family skunk] let him introduce a Bill ; he would save them all trouble,
enjoy the good things rather than that they should be scat- and give them an opportunity of deciding upon the question.
tered amongst persons wholly unfit through the interest of Ile did not ask the House to concur in opinion with hinvex.
some party above them.— (A laugh.) Ile might ask the cept as a matter of right, because the people were entitled to
Honourable Member whether he liked the manner in which have a voice in the constitution. Their Government was a,
the secret service money had been disposed of by a r.preeentative one, and every man should be represented, but
democratic Government.—( hear, hear.) Whether its the people were not represented. Four millions were ex-
disposal bad not given grounds for suspecting the eluded front the franchise, and what was the consequence?
most eminent men in the country of that meanest —discontent and dissatisfaction. The bases of the Govern_
of all crimes, pecuniary speculation ?—( Hear, hear.) Then, meat were not sound, and he (Mr. Hume) proposed this
for the liberty of the subject, that had been boon asserted measure, as the late Lord Grey had proposed his reform
by carrying off the comin inder of the National Guards. measure in 1831, as a measure of peace and conciliation, and
Ile might mention many other instances to show that experi- for the purpose of preventing evil consequences.—(Hear,
ments, such as the Hen. Member for Middlesex proposed, hear.) The Right Ron. Gentleman the Member for Wilt-
did not always lead to the results expected.—(Hear, hear.) shire (Mr. S. Herbert) had asked him to take into coned.
Then there was Prussia, a country in which, if intellectual leration what was passing in France.—(Hear, hear.)
cultivation were to be taken as a standard, the people were When lie (Mr. Hume) considered what was passing in
infinitely superior to the people of England. One of the France, he wished that England should not be sub-
changes there effected by the introduction of democratic jected to such an ordeal.—(Hear.) The Right Honourable
principles was the payment of members, and the consequence Gentleman had referred to the proceedings which attended
lied been that the legislative body was rapidly losing all the revolution in France, but he (Mr. Hume) submitted
respect in the eyes of the people.—(Hear, hear.) They that they could have no reference to the circumstances in
amused themselves in criticising the dress of their represen- which they were placed in that country.—(Hear, hear.)
tatives, and making proposals that they should be paid by The people had a right to representation; let them deny
taskwork, in order that they may get through their work that right, and they were injured; injury produced discon-
sooner. They were to be paid, it appeared, by the job, ac- tent, and with discontent in the country they were not safe.
cording to the number of Bills, and no Member was to speak ( Hear, hear.) Why, a few months ago half a million of
against time for the sake of his 7s. 6d. a day.—(A laugh.) people were called cut to keep down another half. Would
He was proud to see the tranquillity of this country, know- they, then, prevent the people from having that due share
ing as he did that there were causes of disturbance in this of political power which the constitution gave to them?
country as great as any that had exploded in France. He The peace of the country could not be secure while they
had great hopes of the country, but nut from the measure continued their injustice. lie called upon the House to de-
proposed by the Hon. Member for Montrose. He looked cide the question, and let the country judge of their acts
for improvement from that House setting itself seriously to hereafter.—(Cries of " Divide.")
consult the wants and wishes of the country, and from its The House then divided, when there appeared—
remedying those defects and abuses in its own constitution For Mr. Hume's motion
which recent election petitions had rendered so painfully Against it
apparent. lie should merely further say, that his object in Majority ......
rising had been to explain that in giving his vote against The County Cess (Ireland) Bill was passed through
the present motion, he was not recording his opinion fibs°. Committee.
solutely in favour of our legislative system as it now The Places of Worship Sites (Scotland) Bill (report) was
existed. postponed till Wednesday.'
Lord D. STUART rose amidst loud cries of " Question " The Naval Medical Supplemental Fund Society Bill was
and Divide." He congratulated the House upon one of read a second time.
the results of the discussion that had taken plate—namely, Mr. FAGAN obtained leave to bring in a Bill to make life
that it had induced the Noble Lord (J. Russell) to get rid of policies assignable at law.
the principle of finality. The question was whether the The Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a
people required such a measure as had been proposed by the second time on Wednesday, the 26th inst.
Hon. Member for Montrose, and whether that measure was Mr. TRELAWNY moved for a return of the annual
supported by the people out of doors? Upon the first point amount of salaries paid in the year 1847 to the schoolLasters
he thought, after the debate that had taken p'ace, there and schoolmistresses of each poor-law union in Eng n d and
could be no difference of opinion ; and as regarded the second, Wales, of the perquisites and emoluments allowed the
tm,
he believed the vast number of petitions that had been pre- and the various profession or occupation of such Persons in
rented in its favour, was a convincing proof that it was sup- also, of the number of vacancies which have occurred
ported by the great bulk of the people of that country. lie each union since its formation, in the
of boys and
regretted tie attacks that had been made upon the Noble master and schoolmistress; and the numberofeach
union in
Lord at the head of the Government, because be thought the girls respectively who attended the school
services he had rendered to the cause of reform, during a ►the year 1847.—Ordered.
offices of school-
(etaht
long and active political life, ought not to be forgotten by Mr. PARKER gave notice thatuhfotshheouldiactorisenrrneeuwe
is
that House. Without affirming the absolute right of every day) take a few votes on account
man to the franchise, it must be admitted that the principle mates, and on account of the British
of the British Constitution was to extend the basis of the tary of the Admiralty would likewise take more votes on ac-
representation as widely as possible ; and the only limit was count of the naval service.
that required for the safety of the state. It was said that The other orders of the day.w. ere then disposed of, and the
the greatest possible evils would result from the passing of House adjourned at One o'u_a cis
tke Reform Bill; but they bad now had considerable expe-
rience of its working, and up to the present time they had
seen no ill effects arising from it. During the last twenty
years taxation had been considerably diminished in this
country, and it had also beets more equally distributed.—
(Cries of " Divide.") lie believed, therefore, that the Reform
Act had done some good, and he maintained that they ought
to go on in the same course. He was not for finality; he
was for gradual progress; and he believed if there ever was
a time when the people of this country might be safely en-
trusted with increased political power, it was the present
moment, when they were displaying so much moderation and
love of order in the midst of the revolutions which had of late
been agitating the greater portion of the nations of Europe.—
(Loud cries for a division.)
Mr. MUNTZ said it appeared to him that although they
had had many speeches that night upon the subject, the
real question had been very much shirked. The first
ques-
tion which they really had to consider was, whether inepthat
House the people of England were fully and faltly_or, irh";
sented; and the next was, whether, if that ware not 5
would
Hon. Gentleman below him, the Member for Bleountterod.se,
cause the people to be fully and fairly re.praesuf
manyTuhcesne.
were the real questions. It was the o
Members that the present was a nursedPinalg(ittaiotniono,ugahutdttohbaet
to be entitled to any attention such an. agiatart,
bad made no
perfectly spontaneous. Well, he,forhhists
communication upon the subject to constituents. They
parnadp isni
tfioorum soft d
hme
had voluntarily communicatdedw/ihth hthilen,
that they entirely
Honourable Member agreed
Montrose.—(mllgetirt, hear,laugh and
if
, laughter.) Honourable Gentlemen
might intimate in such a man.
they pleased. 'They
nor to him that they believed he was telling them a
order, aid great noise.) The people
falsehoods—(nh
were greatly displeasedno' with the present condition of affairs.
And it was the conduct of the Government on the property-
tax, and on the Gagging Bill, as it was called, that had caused
the present disaffection. But as to the constitution of the
House itself, let them look at the number of Members that
had been unseated for bribery and corruption this session.—
(Hear, hear, and " Leicester and Derby.") He did not care
what party they belonged to. The fact was all he looked
at, and they need not tell him that those who had been
brought forward and found out ware all who had been guilty.
He did not believe they were the twentieth part of the whole
number.—(Hear and a laugh.) As to the great objections
that had been made to the extension of the suffrage,s
they had already granted a 101. household suffrage, and the
Hon. Member for Montrose went only a very little way fur-
ther. But it was not enough to give the franchise—the
voters should be protected in the exercise of it. The work-
ing classes were, to a great extent, as well educated as the
aristocracy themselves, and quite
as well acquainted with
their own wants. They were easily to be governed, if only
they were governed fairly, and he begged the House not to
think that if even they went as far as universal suffrage, the
people would change their constitutional government. He
believed the proposition as now made by his lion. Friend
was founded upon a sound, a just, and a right principle, and
he gave it his most cordial support; and ,he believed that
many lion. Gentlemen who now opposed it would shortly

-----
HER MAJESTY'S THEATICH.—The Queen and his
Royal Highness Prince Albert, aooompanied by hit.
Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent, honoured the
performances at her Majesty's Theatre yesterday even-
ing with their presence. In attendance upon her Majesty
were the Viscountess Jocelyn, the Hon. Miss Kerr, the
Earl of Listowel, and Major General Wemyas. Her
Roy
el highness the Duchess of Kent was attended by
Lady Augßoyal
Augusta Bruce ; and his Royal Highness Prince
-
Albert by Lieutenant Colonel Seymour. His
Highness Prince George also visited the theatre.
the audience we observed the Duke and
Duchess of Cleveland,the e
Amongst his Excellency Rusiian Minis-
ter, Prince Lieven, the Marquis of Clanriarde, the Mar-
quis of Sligo, the Marquis of Anglesey, the Marquis of
Donegal, the Earl of Lonsdale, the Count and Countess
Batiste Metaxa, the Countess of Lovelace, tie Viscount
Clifden, Lord Ward, the Ladies Browne, Lady Domville,
his Excellency the Prussian_ Minister (Chevalier Bun-
sen), 'Lord Southampton, Lord Gardner, General the
Lion. H. Cavendish,
Bart:, Colonel Bowers, Sir J. Bayley,
Bart , Sir F. Trench, M.P., Sir I. L. Goldsmid,
Lady C. W. Taylor, Sir Edward Codrington, Lady
Major Charlotte Guest, Buckley, Captain and Mrs.
Griffiths, Mr. Taylor, Mr. W. M'Gregor, Mr. and Mrs.
Travers, Mr. and Mrs. Tudor, M. C. Koudriaffsky. Sheridan,Mr-
-13...r.
__. Mr. Barry Baldwin, M.P., and Miss Bald-
-7 blLeader and Miss Loder,a Mr. Frank
Mills,,llll &, N .
_

ROYAL MATsnrirrr CITARITY.—List evening the
anniversary dinner of this philanthropic institution
(which was established in 1737, for the purpose of de-
livering poor married women at their own habitations),
was celebrated at the London Tavern, Bishopsgate-
street. Viscount Brackley presided, in the absence of
Lord Robert Grosvenor from indisposition; and a
goodly number of gentlemen sat down to dinner. In
the course of the evening, the secretary (Dr. Rayner,
F.S.A.), read the society's annual report, from which it
appeared that the institution is advancing in prosperity,
being enabled, by its steadily-increasing income, to ex-
tend its benefits to greater numbers of the class for
whose especial behoof they are designed. During the
past year a total number of 2.963 poor females were
delivered, free of charge, at their own homes, within the
24 metropolitan districts. The last year's income of
the charity amounted to 1,8714 10d., and the expendi-
ture left a balance in hand of 1371. 3s. 4d. The noble
chairman ably advocated the claims of the charity to
the support of the humans public, and the company
substantially testified their sense of its merits by
liberally contributing towards the funds during the
evening. .ti: E.?,
Mr. R. Graham bad an intertiew with Sir George
Grey yesterday, at the Home-offiee. "'" '