The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-09 00:00:00

RAILWAY.

On the motion of Mr. SPOONER this Bill was m ithdrawn.
ST. MARTIN'S BURIAL GROUND, BIRMINGHAM.
Mr. SPOONER moved that it be an instruction to the
Committees on the London and Birmingham Railway (Birm-
ingham Extension) Bill, the Birmingham, Wolverhampton,
and Stour Valley Railway ( Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and
Dudley lines) Bill, and the Shrewsbury and Birmingham
Railway Bill, that they do entertain the petition of relatives of
persons deceased interred in St. Martin's Burial-ground,
Birmingham, notwithstanding each petition was not presented
three clear days before the day appointed for the first meeting
of tho Gimmittees.

Mr. ORM SHY GORE said that a petition to the contrary
effect of that stated by the Honourable Member for Birming-
ham had been presented by the trustees, and if the House
sanctioned the motion he must move that this petition be also
referred to the Committee.

Mr. W. R. COLLETT seconded the motion of the Hon.
Member for Shropshire.

After a few words, which did not reach the gallery, from
Lord G. SOMERSET,
Mr. SCOTT said that he could hardly understand the
reason for the application of the Hon. Member for Birming-
ham ; at any rate, if it were granted, he should call upon the
House to do him equal justice, and allow his petition to be
heard befGre the Committee.
Mr. SPOONER could not consent to withdraw his motion.
The present was a case of a novel and an important character,
and should be decided at once. He hoped and trusted that it
would be allowed to undergo the investigation of a Committee.
As he was not inclined to oppose the wishes of the Houses, he
should withdraw his motion.
Motion withdrawn accordingly.
KILMARNOCK AND TROON RAILWAY.
This Bill, on the motion of Dr. BO WRING, was read a
third time and passed.
Messengers from the Lords brought in several Bills.
MENT OF THE
_HOUSE.

On the motion of Sir Sir J. GRA H A NI, it was agreed that
the House at its rising, should adjourn till Wednesday.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
Col. WOOD gave notice that he should move, on the motion
being put for the House going into Committee on the Poor Re-
moval Bill, that the Bill be divided into two, one Bill to be
limited to the exemption of poor persons from the liability of
being removed from parishes in which they have long resided.
Dr. BOWRING moved for a return of the amounts not paid
into the Exchequer, but deducted for costs of collection, and
all other purposes, from the gross amounts received by all the
departments of revenue, separately stated. Also, a return of

the amounts received by the various departments of expen-
diture, from all sources except ParLamcntary grants or issues
from the Exchequer in the year ending the sth day of
January, 1846.—Agreed to.

Mr. CHRISTIE moved for a return of the age, date of
appointment, and salary of Patrick Shaw, Esq., Advocate, Pre-
senter of signatures in Exchequer in Scotland, and of the
amount of allowance to an assistant paid by him out of his
salary. Statement of the duties of presenter of signatures, show-
ing how they differ from those of the agent for revising drafts
of charters, proposed to be appointed by a Bill now before
tke House, " to alter and amend the Practice in Scotland
with regard to Crown Charters and Receipts from Chancery,"
the 4th section of which Bill provides that the revising agent
shall be a writer of the signet; and the 26th section, that the
office and duties of presenter of signatures shall cease from the
passing of the Bill, but that Mr. Shaw shall continue to draw
his salary during his life-time."—Agreed to.

Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE sqid, that he took the liberty at
the close of the debate on Friday evening last, of moving that
the Poor Removal Bill should be taken into the consideration
of the House that evening, with the view of its taking prece-•
dence of any other notice of motion. The public had
a right to this course, and they had also a right to expect
that the House would not go on with the Irish Coercion Bill until
the Poor Removal Bill had been disposed of and discussed
by that House. In consequence of the notice given by
the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, on
the occasion of the Irish Coercion Bill having been carried
on the first reading by a majority of that House, such a
course was expected, because on that occasion the Right Hon.
Baronet was asked when he intended to go on with the Poor
Removal Bill, and the course of action then laid down by the
Right Honourable Baronet was, that after the first
reading of the Irish Coersion Bill, they should proceed
with the Corn and Customs, some few votes of supply,
and that he should also go on to take the sense of the House on
the sugar duties before proceeding with the second reading of
the Coercion Bill. They had disposed of the corn and customs
—they had had votes of supply, but they had not had the
discussion on the Poor Removal Bill, and it was now pro-
posed to take the second reading of the Irish Coercion
Bill before they made any progress in the Poor Removal Bill.
The House was called on in the first instance to take the first
reading of the Irish Coercion Bill, and not from any admira-
tion of its provisions, but as a compliment to the House of
Lords, they were called on to agree to that first reading at
once. That arrangement was made, and in justice to many
gentlemen on that side of the House, he would say
that under that impression many had voted for the
first reading who intended to oppose it on the second.
But now, he contended that the House was taken by surprise
by the Government supporting and adopting the motion of his
Hon. Friend the tlember for Mahon (Mr. E. Denison).
They were called upon the other night to enter Committee
pro forma, in order that the Government and his Hon. Friend
might introduce amendments into his Bill, which was to be
altogether remodelled ; but he wanted to know, because he held
that the instruction agreed to on Friday night did not convey
the sense of the House, as the House was taken by surprise ; and
he now objected to take the Irish Coercion Bill, because it
was incumbent upon them to take the Poor Removal Bill
this evening, in order to discharge the instruction passed the
other night. Even the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell)
had not pledged himself to support it, but in addition
to the objections he (Mr. Duncembe) had stated against it,
he maintained that the instructions would altogether render
the Bill a new one as it would have to be remodelled. He had
a right to inquire whether the House was taken
by surprise or not with respect to the instructions
and with that view he wished agaii. to have the sense of the
House upon it, and if the Committee of the House was averse
to it, that it might be discharged, and that the Government
might not be put to the trouble of proceeding with it. There
never was a Bill which required more remodelling than the
Poor Removal Bill, and it was a disgrace to the Poor-
law Commissioners to have laid such a Bill on the table of the
House, because it would add to the difficulties in connexion with
the question of settlement. He should, therefore, conclude by
moving that the order of the day for the second reading of the
Poor Removal Bill be read in preference to the second
reading of the Irish Coercion Bill.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.

The SPEAKER having put the question,
Sir J. GRAHAM said he, for one, did not object to the
amendment of the Hon. Gentleman, but his approval of it
must be qualified by the understanding that he should
only support it for the purpose of postponing the
Poor Removal Bill. He would tell the House what
had occrred since Friday evening last. In obedience to
what he considered the opinion of the majority of the House ;
on Saturday morning he gave directions to prepare clauses in
accordance with those sentiments those clauses had
been prepared, but he had not had time to consider them.
If it were the pleasure of the House, he should be prepared on
Wednesday or Friday next to give notice that he should
introduce the clauses to which allusion had been
already made. But the Honourable Gentleman
was not satisfied with the decision of Friday night,
last, and that the course proposed to he taken by his Right
Hon. Friend at the head of the Government, with reference to
the second reading of the measure, the discussion on
which had been fixed for that evening. What
had taken place with regard to the Poor Re-
moval Bill was in exact conformity with the
arrangements that had been previously made. If the Hon.
Member for Finsbury should think that this matter would
receive a fairer consideration in a fuller House, he was certainly
at liberty to give notice of his intention to move that the subject
be reconsidered.

Mr. DUNCOMBE—I gave notice on Friday.
Sir J. GRAHAM had every reason to believe that the deci-
sion of the House that evening would be in conformity to the
decision to which they had come on Friday night. It was cer-
tainly most desirable that they should arrive at some distinct
understanding on this point.
Mr. G. BANKES said he entirely concurred with the view
which had been taken by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, with
regard to the division of the other night—that it was a divi-
sion which took the House entirely by surprise.—(Hear.)
The surprise on that side of the House was complete, when
they learned that the Government voted in support of the mea-
sure, which they had every reason to suppose they would vote
in opposition to—( Hear, hear)—because it was the very same
measure which had been completely given up by the Secretary
of the Home-office, and because he stated that he found it uni-
versally distasteful to the agricultural district—( Hear. hear)—
and therefore it was entirely by surprise that that motion
was so disposed of; for he might state that of those Hon.
Members who sat on the same side of the House with
him, on that occasion left the matter wholly and
solely in the hands of the Government, because they consi-
dered themselves acting with safety in doing so ; though it was
true they had not been universally in the habit of trusting
them, and on the only occasion on which they unfortunately
reposed their confidence in them, a measure was passed
which was adverse to the wishes of their constituents.
He was therefore prepared to say that before they adopted the
instruction in question, that ins' ruction ought to be carried by
a majority of that House, and before that would be done they
most have another division—( Hear, hear)—and he knew no
occasion on which they were more likely to have a fuller at-
tendance, or a more dispassionate discussion, than they would
have that evening. He hoped, therefore, that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Finsbury would persevere in his motion, and now take a
division ; and whatever that division might be, they would ac-
knowledge that it was a decision of a majority of that House.—
( Hear, hear.) He must remind his Hon. Friends who sat upcn
the Treasury bench, that it was understood that this measure
should be sent pani passe to the other House of Parliament,
with the other important Bill that was now before it. And
with regard to the discussion interposing any further delay in
the question of the Coercion Bdl, he believed that the opinion
was universal throughout the country, that the Government
had no idea whatever of carrying that Bill—( Hear, hear)—that
they had resigned the hope, if they had not given up the wish
of carrying it, and therefore he had no scruple whatever
in interposing any further delay to the discussion,
of the Coercion Bill. With regard to the discussion the other
night, he thought that it was impracticable to carry it out un-
less the present poor-law unions were remodelled. Under these
circumstances, he hoped that they would now have an oppor-
tunity of taking a vote without surprise, in a full House of
Parliament, on this important question.
Sir R. PEEL said that the great majority of those who
were then present must have come there that day with the full
expectation that the subject for discussion was the second read-
ing of the Bill for the better Protection of Life and Property
in Ireland—( Hear, hear)—and when the opportunities for dis-
cussion were so precious it was of importance that no time
should be lost in consequence of any misunderstanding. He
had been most desirous, during the course of the present ses-
sion, to fulfil any assurance he might have given. He always
felt certain that the second reading of that Bill was fixed under
the impression that on the motion that the Speaker do leave
the chair, there should be an opportunity, he would not say
for the discussion of any pi ineiple in the Bill, bat for Members
to state generally what were their opinions with r6;:sect to it.
He would not admit that he ever said that this measure should
proceed, pari passe, with the other Bill that was now before
the other House of Parliament. He had always
stated that he should be prepared to give a full op-
portuni!y for discussion on the question. He had
also stated that he considered it to be his duty to
proceed with the Bill for the better protection of life and
property in Ireland. He thought it would be perfectly open to
any Hon. Gent. to object to the decision of the other night,
and to give notice of his intention to move that the subject
should be discussed again ; but surely that subject might be
discussed with greater advantage if due notice of it were given
—( Hear, hear)—than bringing forward a discussion upon it
now, when the majority of the House had come there that
evening under the impression that the subject for discussion
was the second reading of the Bill for the better Protection of
Life and Property in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He did hope,
then, that the Hon. Gent. would not drag the House into a
futile discussion upon this most important discussion; but
allow them to proceed with that which had been set down for
the business of the evening.
_ .

Mr. EVELYN DENIoN said hehad kept perfect good faith
with the House with regard to this most important question ;
and on Saturday, pursuant to appointment, he had an inter-
view with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State
for the Home Department, and settled the clauses of the Bill.
He might go so far as to say that the clauses had been brought
up, and the amended Bill printed. Would it not be better,
then, to postpone the discussion, in order that Hon. Members
might have an opportunity of considering it.
Mr. WAKLEY could not understand hew the House could
have been taken by surprise by the course proposed by
the Right Hon. Baronet, for notice was given previous to the
l
recess that the discussion on the second reading of the o
should be proceeded with on Friday. The question no
pro-
posedfor it
affectedt o b e discussed s ed
conditionwa s on
ofe ofa
thousandsmost
the poorer classes
be disaused or
of the country, and he hoped it would_
not(
Hear, hear.) It
treated in the light of a party discautses:
r attention of the House,
importantof character,
was a subject which deserved thegre
and for good or evil must effect the condition of thHnecopenoo.ofrtfhoer
For himself he deeply considered the
many years to come.
question, but he confessed,.
ri
eeaffotsefhr
hiso
should
decomnbseoitdigeorinvaetoinfotnhini.insuauHriosiis,
Hon.as
Col-
league, Colleagueit proposedreguired twshthialittehmrewolould involve the con
well as in parishes,
Poor-law Commissioners ; and he must confess, after what had
transpired in a Committee with which he himself was con-
nected, that that House was not in a condition fur-
hctiErsitierlaeHtgioeisnitalrteue;itsuelpad:entihiatehsrteaiftioyrboer,natnthhcaihst
question,
the
ffthetuohl
usdetti
breqb:uouettewcstotw;tujooil
tnud:i.doHnteaankro,
intLooirtsd considerationjoßusesvEeriLthsinagid
,betharaitnhgeocno
with the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and with agtrhe eee
Gentleman who brought the question before the House. He
considered it fair to the Right Hon. Gentleman who intro-
duced the motion to the Government, that the House of Com-
mons should enable the Right Hon. Gentleman to place the
Bill before the House in a definite shape. It would have been
better had the Bill been called the Union Settlement Bill, as
it would have brought the Bill more fully before the House.
He• could not see the advantage of going into any discussion
on the Bill on the present occasion, for it seemed to him that
it would be far better that they should allow the Right Hon.
Gentleman to place the Bill (having fully considered the
clauses) in that shape in which he thought the House could
best consider it. The Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, although
he supported the Bill, and seemed to support the motion of his
Hon. Friend, had said what he ( Lord John Russell) thought
was, in itself, a reason for taking such a course. He said that
the unions were very large, too large for the purposes required,
and until they saw the amendments to the Bill, how did
they know that the Right Hon. Baronet did not intend to
propose some modification of the size of the unions ? They did
not know what were the details he proposed ;.aud.as the lion.

Gentleman asked only until Wednesday to settle these details,
he thought that such an interval should not be denied him.
Mr. BRIGHT said, that in the course of his observation!,
the Hon. Member for Finsbury had said, that the clerk of a
union at, or near Stafford, had refused to allow a rate payer of
the district to inspect the returns, or to give ernie information
which he sought for. He (Mr. Bright) had received a lei
which stated that the assertion was not correct, as far as the union+
clerk was concerned. He would read a portion of that letter
to the House. It stated that the clerk had at all times, in the
performance of the duties of his office, given every opportunity
for inquiry ; but that, with regard to the refusal stated by the
Hon. Member for Finsbury, no such application was ever made
to him, nor did he know until lately that it was asserted that
any information had been denied. The letter also stated that
the returns of the 9th of February, 1846, were carefully,
made, and that they comprehended every particular whichh
thanthere necessary to mention. He (Mr. Bright) wee sure t
there was no union clerk in the country more didisposedto do
his duty, and he had no doubt that the Hon. Member for Yine-
bury had laboured under some mistake, or had received es 'ro"
neous information from other parties.
Lord HARRY VANE trusted that the House 'Would accede'
to the suggestion of the Noble Lord the Member for London.
His opinions were not quite similar to those entertained by the
Noble Lord, but he was anxious that the question should be
discussed at some future time, when the House was
more itct
possession of the circumstances. He thought the House would
adopt a most inconvenient course if they entered then upon *
recommendation of what they had passed so recently as Friday
last. Such a course would create as much surprise in the,
c untry as that expressed by the Hon. Gentleman a'
their adoption of the instructions of the Hon. Member for
Mahon.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK considered that the subject ought
to be referred to a Select Committee, and expressed his
tention of proposing the adoption of that course in the event of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury moving the rejection of the in-
structions.
Mr. DUNCOMBE considered it would be better for the
House to go into Committee pro forma, in order that they
might have an opportunity of moving the rejection of the in'
structions.
Sir ROBERT PEEL thought the House had better see
the Bill before they came to any decision respecting it-
s--
(Hear.) It was an important Bill, and every one wo i
uld n.e
quiesce in the necessity of giving the utmost attention to t
It would be best to print the Bill, and afterwards to discuss.
the subject of union settlements.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Right Hon. Baronet the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department informed him, in an
early stage of the Bill, that it was his intention to apply
it to
the poor of Ireland. He trusted that nothing would be intro-
duced into it to prevent this, and therefore he wished to know
if he intended to carry out that principle in the Bill as
amended ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM intended that all Ireland should be
included in the provisions of the Bill.
Mr. BORTHWICK should object to the House going into
Committee pro forma, in order to embody in the Bill the in-
structions of the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said he should take the sense of the
House on his motion, as he considered that the House ought
not to be put to the trouble of going into Committee until the
nature of the Bill had been determined in a full House.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said the instructions were agreed
to, after great discussion, on Friday evening. The clauses
were prepared, and he believed the Hon. Member for Malign
had seen them. As he stated he had not yet had an opportunity
of reading them, but in the course of two hours he had no
doubt he should be enabled to look over them, so that the flou_se
might go into Committee pro forma, and as the House would
not sit to-morrow, they might be able to discuss it on Wedeel;
day ; but, unfortunately, the business before the House wenil
not admit of that. However, on Thursday he hoped they might
enter into a discussion of its merits. lcl
Colonel WOOD had given notice that to-day he shou
hope to confine the attention of the House to one simple claus?;
viz., that a person who had been resident in a parish shot's'
not be liable to removal out of it.
thalatlr the
. DtUuNo
projects
CO NlßEshunoudeldrsbtoe includedodth
eHoinn.
one /slemßbielir,
in
ftr to order
that they might have the pleasure of separating them
wards.—( Cheers. )
The amendment was withdrawn.
ENLISTMENT OF SOLDIERS. at
Captain LAYARD asked the Right Hon. the Secretary
War, whether there was any truth in the statement that had P
peared in the Times newspaper, with respect to the limitation
anr'
of the period of enlistment, as connected with clause 8? .in
Mr. S. HERBERT said the Gallant Officer was correct:loo
his surmises as to clause 8, and that an alteration had t
place with respect to the period of enlistment of soldiers.
THE GAUGE QUESTION. f the
Mr. C. WOOD wished to ask the chief Minister t
Crown, what opinion the Government had formed with respect
to the gauges? on of
Sir R. PEEL thought it was necessary that the
°Pi nsiiould
the Government on that important subject (the gauge) ~./5 of
be made known as speedily as possible, because the progr.'-"
1, the
different railway Bills would no doubt be impeded unit.
ed
decision of the Government was made public. He belleinto
that the proceeds of the Commission appointed to intluireusori
the subject of the broad and narrow and their opl
had been reported in the shape of au es.
which had hied
laid on the table. The best and most satisfactory course e thatPe
he could pursue would be to move that those naieut
printed,might so
have a
that by
copy in
hisrrow d.
morningn
House every Member
CASE OF SIR CHARLES TAYLOR.
the time had elapsed when he was to have received
with
from the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of. State,
h.
Mr. COLLETT said the Bth of June had now.veasrainveadn,srec!
respect to copies of affidavits which had been submittedtoßigibillt
in the case of Sir Charles Taylor. He called upon the ,„
Hon. Gentleman to submit to the House the result of me
investigation of those affidavits, and he also wished him tl
state whether Sir Charles Taylor was still in the commission °f
the peace.
sirSirchJaArielaslETSayGlorß AhaHdAbMeenrepblrioedughthtautnsdinerceththee act
toenndtai e fof
the House, he had made the most minute inquiry with respec,t,
to the truths of the charges brought against him. The real'
of his investigation of the first charge was that the Hot"
Member had relied upon the statement of a convicted felon,
and that his statement was incorrect. He did not believe the
truth of the statement. Since then the Hon. Member had
proposed a new case—had brought new charges against Sir
Charles Taylor, on the affidavits of different persons, and had
furnished him with those affidavits. He had carefully ern"
sidered those affidavits, and was of opinion that it was en-
necessary to take any further proceedings with respect to the
matter. With respect to the last. question of the Hon. GI";
tleman, he did not hesitate to tell him that Sir Charles Taylor
did hold her Majesty's commission.
been
Mr. P. SCROPE was aware that several charges ha- _
made against Sir Charles Taylor, who had been put tn cc_t_
siderable inconvenience and anxiety with respect t Pitlittu-d
lication of them in the papers. Sir Charles
sought his advice upon the subject, and had asked bTimay
he could take proceedings in a court of law, or in that
was, „at
against the Hon. Member for Athlone. His advice wilds
he should not take any proceedings in the matter, as the tr
would become apparent, and his character would be cleared'
If such charges were brought against one magistrate, th
%ether

might be brought against all.
Mr. COLLETT said that he still most conscientiously be
lieved that the allegations were true.—(Order, order.)
which
Mr. NEWDEGATE felt satisfied that the charges
were made against Sir Charles Taylor were utterly groundless:
and he did hope that the House would take some means of lsr°
tecting an individual who was unable to defend himself frole
the attacks of any Hen. Member in that House.
Mr. WAKLEY observed, that there was only one course
open to the House to adopt, and that was for the appointment
of a Committee. After the statement of the Hon. 'Member'
that he fully believed that the allegations contained in the'
positions were true, and after the statement of the Righter
Hon. Baronet, that he did not intend to institute any fell"—
inquiry, he was satisfied that no case more admitted or re'
quired a complete inquiry than the present.
Mr. BANK ES objected to any further inquiry, as he eo°.si:
dered the appointment of a Committee would be an impute
on the veracity of the House, and be holding them up to pub
lie scandal.
Mr. HUME thought it was much to the honour of.
be
of
Member, when he heard of any act of injustice having .°2 of
done by a magistrate, to interfere and protect the vial"'
magisterial iorance or tyranny. ed
The ATTORNEY-GE said he was unaceea•nit
he
with Sir Charles Taylor, bat if blame attached to any °fle,.'old
thought it attached to him. He did consider that there 9._ jog
be some course adopted which would prevent Members eo"_liost
forward and making such accusations as those
Sir Chas. Taylor, when they were based upon wholly gr,_°_,l of
less fabrications ; and that would be the only proper D
met:'re.
meeting out justice upon slid) occasions. And now, with
ti s°'
spect to the legality of these affidavits—they were perfeec ?tin°,
but they were nullities, and no civil action would li dal"
them, nor could a civil action be brought to recover dal" r t
, tres-
made agaund..
against any person who had made them falsely. He did
bee he
that the Hon. Gentleman would come forward himself vi old
had inquired a little more into the case, and be
apologise. ber f°r
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK—The Hon. Me m beloff
Montrose expressed his surprise that his Hon. Friend
...,0
(Mr. Bankes) should have shown so much warmth if
this occasion, but he should have felt much surprise ..flocla
Hon. Friend had not shown warmth, for it would be as Irc..
as to say that he was wanting in all the feelings which.
nenrhnse
tense an English gentleman—that he was wanting . been
feelings of generosity which betray a noble spirit—bad Le ,;.00,
enabled to have heard those charges brought against
te r_i_„re
Gentleman, 80 years of age, who had been a magistrate tutee
than half a century. What, were they to grant a ----r"ra.°3l.___tttojee
of Inquiry into that Hon. Gentleman's conduct I Hneten to
not. If they were to grant a Committes,tt
tteoldb"' i
instrument °-
inquire whether an Hon. Member had been
anst an Hon. Gentleraae,
a foul, a false, a scandalous charge
do about nothing. The Hop'
they were making much
°ere all aware, upon these subjects
Memher for Athlone, they were If '.. aware that if tbei
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE srtidir it appeared to him the.
ws
ty towns they would get
dam lot of fella
people by his strict adherence to the lays'
hd h. self
Taylor a e irn
ning, and . ir
to swear anyt
the TheS7 "Cheawrleerseilil'
obnoxious to . dthe Hon. Member
he conside, e
Taylor, they quite Indeed,owed an apology f01.
sweanst ad
omwonno into umonomaniac.
ntihaec .
haviorg. brought forward the charge. —( Hear, hear.)
...
...e
Dar. BRIGHT said, in the extreme desire which the .11°""
county
manifested to do justice to Sir Charles Taylteaffor:
got to do justice to the Member for Athlone. The LIA-1,
Gentleman had given the question very minute inquiry. anfuitie
had found a confirmation of his former statements. He t-tir.
Bri,ehZ) had himself seer, the woman who had purchased t-oe,
game, and lie had seen her husband also ; and there wasi nit
Worcester journal, that a gaQ
thing in her appearance, or in her manner, or in her conoleid
which would alter h;: belief in her statements. But he $/°° i
draw their attention to 3. fact which had lately appeared rich
to a church, in order that some
ekeeper had laid a snare in %oh
he placed dead game in a field, tn:ough which there was and to
Pt-on had 0 take it ; and could they doubt that if any pers Gentle/is.
so he would be punished for it? And if the *lb
ld adePt his
was a monomaniac, he wished more persons wi;"- „mu Lord
views with reference to the game-laws.--(A laugh -I'
rson- might be fou dope
George Bentinck ) 0 the
Mr. COLLETT regretted to intrude himself 01)°_oint.
House, but he could not sit quietly by when such severe a 00
adversions had been made on a Member of that fleuse;od he
had inquired into the character of Sir Charles Taylor, hear.).
found there was not a more honourable man.—(Hear, oh-
He oh-
He did consider that the Hon. Member ought either es
then
stantiate his charges or to apologise.--The subject iv
allowed to drop.
COERCION BILL (IRELAND).
e the OW
Mr.POULETT SCROPE said, he would postpon
_,ectiog
lutions which he had upon the paper—resolutions revstieb a
remedial measures which should certainly accompanY
measure as that at present proposed for Ireland.
move that
Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE said, he had to.
_oohs.
this Bill (the Irish Coercion Bill) be read this day six m° have
He had hoped that her Majesty's Government w"' hart
abandoned
ivsermaneacesu ii the
contended that the Government had not made use 0 , to put
eat a end
down the disturbed state of Ireland. They had sent t
to se°
with it
wherethwyasofsaerrbyetttehraetautfbseae.y_ -14
powers which were vested in them by the law of the latin,_
_,..-..1
Commission to W stmeath, but they had taken 9treolieet to
down before hand to know what evidence they eel"
ru sued thea
support convictions. Now, he asked, had they P
-He believe
same course with regard to Limerick and Clare ? . _
_haei.,,.-i-:
that they had notthey had, he withdrew tl'e±; oit d 6
( Hear, hear.) The people of Ireland resisted the law,, fa
not press fairly upon them; they had a footed a'''

English law, and how were they to r smove that feeling?
feelingsxee ptio
Why, not by coercive acts, but by kind ; and paternal gm:ern-
,y their
ment. &nee the union, a period who' T
-re•;nd was
not governed by a Coercion Bill, o
He begged the Howe not to be learkaw.',.a/s
very
much struck
in
the discussion of this qtr:stion.
with what fell from the Honourable IVlernber for the West
Riding of Yorkshire on a former oecasi,,,, In &Wine- to the
murder of the late Lord Norbury, he •
.tepieted the shack which
his feelings sustained by that nee,
urrence. They all knew,
bowever, how that crime w -
4s perpetrated ; but, stringent as
the Rill was, it would be:ineffective to prevent the occurrence
of such horrible as °:..ssinations. They had for a course of cen-
llll4.es endeav;ured to put the whole population of Ireland out
of the pal;, of the law, and they could not expect, after such
treat:nent, they could have a peaceable and contented body of
people. The people of Scotland gave a proof of the inefficacy
of keeping the inhabitants of a country in subjection when no
care was taken to show them that they were the objects of the
law's protection. Archbishop Sharpe, of Glasgow, Ml a vie-
tim to the mob in that city, when the people were influenced ,
Tsimilar exasperating circumstances as the people iif Ireland.
use the words of Mr. Burke, the Government " were fret-
ting the people of Ireland with a feverish existence." And
they might depend upon it, that as long as they did not legis-
late for the interests of the people, and the protection of their
rights, so long would they and their measures be regarded
with feelings of hostility. He would not enter at greater
length into the question, as he had already occupied thir at-
tention so recently on the specific merits of the Bill. It was
said, the other night, in refe-ence to the diminution of crime
in Ireland, that that was owing to the debates which took
.place on the Bill in this House, and also to the terror caused
12y its having passed the House of Lords. He could assure the
House, however, that the people of Ireland knew little of what
took place in that House, and cared less. He could not close
the few remarks he thought it his duty to make, without call-
ing their attention to the time during whieh this Bill was
before the House. On the 22,1 of .January last the Bill was
first alluded to in the speech from the throne, and her Ma-
jesty's Government nearly a month afterwards brought for-
ward this measure. After numerous delays and procrastina-
tions February was allowed to pass, and it was the end of
March before the Bill received the sanction of the House of
Lords. Irrespective of the merits of the Bill, however, he
would ask if crime had been as prevalent in Durham, York-
shire, and ether counties of England, as it had been repre-
sented to have been in Ireland, would they for an instant
have tolerated the Gcvernment to defer the consideration of
a measure for its repression for the space of five months?—
(Hear, hear.) He would ask the Noble Lord (Lord G. Ben-
tinck) would he have dune so ? After making an extract
from the former speech of the Noble Lord to show that he
would not, the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to say that if
it were true that assassination was so prevalent in Ireland,
they ought to have taken more decisive and immediate steps
with regard to the present Bill. He did not wish 'co trouble
the House longer. He was quite certain that the Bill was
altogether unnecessary, and he trusted that the Noble Lord
(George Bentinck) would follow out his own declaration, and
oppose it. He very much regretted that the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Ireland should have made this the first public act
of his in regard to that country. He would conclude by moving
a 2 an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time that
day
_six months.
Mr. BERNAL rose to second the motion. He was free to
Confess, that when a similar Bill was proposed formerly, he
supported it, but he was not confirmed, by any salutary expe-
rience he had of its effects, of the propriety of giving his sup-
port to the present measure. He asked them, was that the
only remedy they had for the grievances of that country ?
(No, no.) The Hen. and Gallant Member said "No."
Well, then, what other remedies did they propose to meet
the evils under which that country laboured? He knew of
certain parts of Ireland which at that moment were suffering
from the greatest distress, and indeed he must say, that all
through Ireland very general distress existed.
Mr. DILLON BROWN here moved that the House be
counted.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. On our return,
there being 40 Members present,
Mr. BERNAL resumed. He was sorry to find that during
the discussion of a. question of so much importance to Ireland,
barely 40 Memb,ers were present.—( Hear, hear.) He could
not see that such a Bill as the present could have the effect of
preventing crime in Ireland. If parties in that country were
inclined to commit murder, this measure would not prevent
them, aryl, therefore, the object for which it was introduced
Was entirely defeated Her Majesty's Ministers said that in
February last midnight murderers were stalking forth in a for-
midable manner, and assassinations were taking place in many
Parts of Ireland, and to put a stop to such crime they thought
St to introduce the present measure. He could not see why it
"ass that if the measure was for any good at all, it should have
been delayed to the month of June. To put a stop to crime
which existed in February, no legislative measure was brought
!forward till that evening, and h thought that the long delay
'Which had taken place was a virtual abandonment of the Bill ;
indeed, he had thought that they were to hear no more of it,
and he was sure that at this period, when Ireland was in a state
°r quiet, no such measure should be brought forward.
Ile believed that if they were to take the feeling of the people
of this country on such a measue, it would be found against it.
The people of England were not in favour of sending the Irish
Peasantry to Van Diemen's Land for crimes committed
through the misery they endured ; for it was well known to the
People of this country that starvation was at the bottom, in
fact, the root of all the crime committed in Ireland, and they
would be for preparing other measures for remedying the evils
which afflicted that country.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. DILLON BROWNE again moved that the House be
tounted, when strangers were ordered to withdraw; but it
having been found that there were forty Members present,
Mr. BERNAL again resumed. The House could not be
surprised at the crime in Ireland when it was to be taken into
rar deration that the juries in that country were not jasper-
thatr chosen without respect to creed.—( Hear.) He was te'.d
of 3uch e people of Ireland placed no faith in the impartif.;lity
hope t
ano those that came before them felt bu!,, little
Pe of impartial justice, chosen as they were for their political
partisanship.—(Hear, hear). What had they done for the
people of Ireland? Had they brought forward any great
question ? Had they proposed any great legi':;iative measure
to relieve the distress which existed ? The Government told
them that they were full of good intentions towards Ireland;
but the House would bear in mind that tho,e intentions were
never brought to bear in her favour.—( Hear, hear.) Year
after year they were hearing of the distress in Ireland, and still
nothing was done for that country. It was well known that
the peasantry of Ireland had no settlement, no claim on the
land, and from this fact had emanated many of the evils com-
plained of. It was well known the agrarian crimes committed
arose from the unsettled state of the landed tenure of Ireland,
and it was to this state of things that the Government should
turn its attention.—( Hear, hear.) It was evident that this
Bill was most untimely brought forward, for it had been re-
marked by several Peers who had voted for the mea-
sure that if they were aware it would have been
delayed for this period they would not have voted for it.
There must have been some reason for this change.—(Rear,
hear.) It was quite a romance to think that a Bill which was
brought forward to put a stop to midnight murders should be
delayed to a period when no such crimes were committed.—
(Hear. hear.) It was a measure more fitting for Mexico than
for Ireland at the present moment, and it was because he saw
that it. was uncalled for that he voted for the amendment pro-
Posed.

No Hon. Member having risen, and there being a cry of
" Divide,"
bestsv_Th Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but no division took
Place ; and on our re-admission to the gallery,
Mr. OSBORNE was addressing the House. He said that
the Noble Lord opposite knew nothing whatever of the country
Or of the question at all. In fact, with regard to Ireland,
there was not a man in that House more ignorant, with the best
Islneteo utions, than the Noble Lord, the unsuccessful candidate for
thttlugham
but he begged to tell the Noble Lord that
__.:Nnay to deal with Ireland was not by maintaining an aristo-
Yaatt silence on the opposition benches. But he understood
siniont Ille.Noble Lord accounted for his silence upon one occa.
ireianuyd
3eeclarreing that a man would require to be six years in
Mode ofllfo he could answer any questions in respect to the
governing her. However, he (Mr. Osbore) would
Pass over the Noble Lord's opinion in this respect, but he
would call upon the First Minister of the Crown not to deal
With this measure in this way, for he would ask, was it right or
Was it respectful to Ireland ,to deal with this measure in this
way?_...( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of LINCOLN said he could assure the House,
and the Hon. Member who had last spoken, and who had
made a speech which contained charges that he felt assured
could not be justified by the circumstances, that though
he might be ignorant of Ireland, and Irish affairs,
he would wish, in reply to the Honourable Member,
who had seconded the amendment, to address himself to the
subjects touched upon by him, and to explain his views and the
views of the Government upon this question. But here let
bim remark, that when this House had been twice counted out
within a few minutes, and when he looked at the benches op-
posite, and when he saw there only three or four of the repre-
sentatives of Ireland, he should soy it did appear to him that
they did not bestow much attention to the measure; and he
should add, that it would be acting a more becoming part, and
appear more respectful to Irish measures, if he, however igno-
rant of them, yet as the Secretary for Ireland, had endeavoured
to postpone to a later period of the evening those observations
he had to make, and which he would not shrink from making
at any time, upon this subject. Nothing appeared to him
more probable than that he should be taunted with having
risen at a time when nobody expected he would have done
80, or that he had shrunk from the opportunity of raising
his voice in favour of this measure, when a large
number of the Irish Memt,ers should be present.
When he had heard several volees cry out for a division, he did

not wish to rise at that morJent, as he thought there might be
others present who would wish to take a part in the discussion;
but when he did not sr,e any other Member prepared to do so,
be then rose, and he begged to assure the House it was per-
fectly immaterial to him at what period of the night he ad-
dressede the House,rowded, for he was not so vain as to desire to see it
•
wtsile he was making a speech. Now, having made
these 0 sravatibons in answer to the violent assault which had
been made
illoaceled.
doing
oeinapply
upon him by the Hon. Member opposite, be would
himself to the subjec • t now under discussion,
endeavour the aso be begged to assure the House
allusions. Hetrwoiedulll mention of irritating topics or party
that he would
this
Bill'
to confine what he to a defence of had to say
contained. The Hon ivtd a justification of the provisions it
the honour to sayumed that it munaber for Drogheda had done him
Lincoln) had ass
the st have been with pain that he (Lord
could assure the Right
Tilt of Secretary for Ireland. He
Baronet, that it was with
much greater pain he had risen in the discharge of his official
duty to propose this measure
Was a duty he would
etvhe Douse that when
not shrink from it. He need not, rtt7•-htiindit
led were sub-
o the course they
first this measure was introduced
had said that this
jected top ll manner of charges with as
were adoing. Hon. Members opposite
h: slat below
measure was introduced without reason, or
charges eyed too
cation ; and those Hon. Members on his sideezeuse' Or j"tifi-
the gangway, said that the measure had been
long. Now, he conceived that the first of those
been disposed of by the first discussion which had taken place had
it had always been held good that it was not desirable
press on such a measure hastily, and he thought he could appealt
to the general policy of the present Government as a contra..
diction to the assertion that this measure had been introduced
without reason, or excuse, or justification, for doing so. Let
him remind the House that a similar Act to this existed in the
year 1835, and yet the Government allowed five years to elapse
without attempting to revise it. They had also allowed the
Party Processions Act to expire; and though they had revised
the Unlawful Oaths' Act, it had been deprived of many of its
most offensive and obnoxious clauses. Then there was the
Arms' Act, to which the Noble Lord, whom he now

saw sitting at the bar ( Lord Clements), gave such strenuous
opposition, that that Act had not been put in force in any offen-
sive manner. With regard to -he charge of having delayed this
. . .

Bill too long, he begged-to say he did not think that that charge
lay at the door of the Government. But he would much rather
bear with such a charge th in let it be said they were pressing it
on too hastily. The Hon. Baronet opposite complained of this
delay, and yet he moved the postponement of the measure; and
therefore if there was any offence in delay, the Hon Mem-
ber opposite participated in it. His Right Hon. Friend near
him had been accused of not wishing to pass the Corn Bill, or
he would not have pressed on the first reading of the WU—
and yet they were charged with delay. This Bill had been
spoken of as an unconstitutional measure, and it should be ad-

witted that it was.soTbirt it could only be justifi,cl by a stern I
necessity, and in such a state of things as where life and pro-
Percy were not protected by the law now within the compass of ,
the Constitution. In fact, the only liberty that now existed in

Ireland was liberty for murder and outrage; but there was no
liberty for the protection of the peaceable and those who should
be protected ; and let him remind the House that this mea-
sure was intended to be applied to five counties only, for the
disca e, through epidemic, he feg,r-d was contagious in many cases
also. The measures previooslf introduced had been successful,
! though they had not been brought into operation. They
had been successful in operating on the minds of the people of
Ireland. On the previous debate there had been so many
cases adduced in support of the Bill, that he hesitated now in
troubling them further. He knew, however, that it was more
by cumulative instances, than by a few strong cases, that
such a measure as the present ought to be grounded. The
Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir John Somerville) in the course; of
his speech observed, that he considered the Government were
bound to do three things. In the first place, they were bound
to show the necessity for the measure ; in the sec ind place,
that the state of' things complained of could not be
put down by the operation of the laws ; and in
the third place they were bound to show that there was a fair
prospect of the Bill being effectual and efficacious in working a
change. He (Lord Lincoln) was ready to admit that this was
a fair representation of the duty of the Governmen.t in intro-
ducing such a Bill ; and if they were not already satuified with
the cases that had been given in support of the measure,
he was willing to establish the case still further. But
before doing so he must refer to a statement made by
the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork (Me. O'Connell),
who affirmed that the disorders complained of principally,
if not mainly, were of an agrarian character, and were to be
got rid of; by a Bill for regulating the position of landlord
and tenant, and measures of a similar kind. By a careful
examination of the criminal returns, he (Lord Lincoln) found
this statement completely disproved ; and he should prove to
the House teat though there was some connexion tietween
these outrages and the land, the Hon. arid Learned Gentleman
was not justified in stating that either the majority or a
large proportion :of the crimes were of an agrarian character.
They prove that not only the landlord and tenant are inter-
fered with, but that they enter into every other relationship
of life. To use the language of the Honourable and
Learned Member for Cork, the whole body corporate was
diseased." To prove this, he could not go to a more unpre-
judiced source than the Commission authorised by the Govern-
ment to inquire into the state of Ireland, and which, three
months ago, presented its report. The Commission to which
he referred was that over which Lord Devon had pre-
side ; and he (Lord Lincoln) wished to call the
particular attention of the House to the returr.s
in the first volume of the appendix furnished by Colonel
Miller, superintendent of police. These returns, he might
add, were arrived at, with the view of establishing a fact that
disputes respecting land were at the bottom of these outrages.
This, however, was not proved by the returns furnished. The
offences, as furnished in 1844 by the constabulary police, are
given as agrarian, and otherwise. In that year there was the
alarming number of 6,337 cases of outrage. Of this number
5,336 were not agrarian, there being only 1,001 which were
of an agrarian character, or less than one-third. But of this
1,001 there were 417 which were not strictly agrarian, but
were cases of threatening notices. These, strictly speaking,
should be deducted. If they went into minute particulars, the
'case was stronger still. They would then see that crimes of
the worst character were not agrarian, as the following would
show:—

Incendiary fires, not agrarian
,f „ agrarian

Assaulting and threatening life, not agarian... 238
2, agrarian . .... 12

Aggravated assault, not agrarian
7, „ agrarian 4O

Firing at the person, not agrarian 47
„ agrarian

Homicides, not agrarian... 127
, agrarian ... • lB
This clearly showed that the statement of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman the Member for Cork was not borne out
by facts and figures. These returns had been classified as
agrarian and not agrarian at the desire of the Commission,
with the object of showing, no doubt, that agrarian outrages
were at the bottom of these outrages, but this had not been
borne out by the results. In further exemplification, he woulSe
refer to returns which he had laid on the table of the House
last Friday, and which had been printed that morning. Th.e'y
were so voluminous that he did not apprehend Hon. Nlern'o,s,
could have examined them yet; but they would find, if they
investigated, that what he had stated respecting the na 'care ot
the outrages was more than borne out. He would !ssid a few
extracts as bearing on the case. He had clas'afied them
as far as time would allow, and they ex',mplified the
real social state of the five counties cn which the
outrages had most prevailed. The first cl.ass from which he
would read was that relating to crimes asasing out of disputes
between the landlords and tenants, but not strictly of an agra-
rian character.—( Hear.) He would remark that this was a
very small class in comr,arison with he others. The first case
he would refer to, was that of an attack of a person of the name
of Kelly, whose house, on the 13th of December, was entered
at n'ght by a body of men whose faces were blackened. They
demanded Kelly, an,: were told that he was from home. They
sent a search and, found his horse ; then they made a strict
examination of the premises, when Kelly was found, and
abused and tl..reatened that his life would be taken if he did
not treat his tenants with more kindness. The tenants referred
to were patties living on the property, but refused to pay any
rent. He. knew some of the parties, and was willing to lodge
informaS;esns, but he thirst not move in the case until he had
sold off, his stock, and he could not do so if it was known he
wou'A proceed against the parties. No one would purchase
frs,ra him. He would go from this class to another,
compelling servants to leave their employment. On the
29th of January, in the county of Wicklow, six persons entered
the house of a farmer and beat a servant of the name of
Michael, because he would not leave. There was another
case in which seven men beat a servant because he would not
leave so as to afford employment for some other parties. The
Noble Lord read several other cases of the same kind from the
counties of Wicklow and Tipperary. He had one case which
would show a minuteness of interference so strange as likely to
excite a smile from Hon. Members. On the 28th of Dec.,
three armed men assaulted a female servant employed by
Samuel Cowe, Esq., and that gentleman was fired at by the
parties. The complaint was that the servant, a dairymaid, was
too penurious in her supply of milk to the labourers. The
next case to which he would refer was interference to compel
masters to discharge servants. On the 27th July last,
in the county of Tipperary, an armed party as
saulted a gentleman, because he would not dis•
miss certain labourers that were obnoxious to them.
He would now proceed to another class of offences, namely,
that to prevent persons entering into particular trades, or pre-
vers'cin,g, competition in the county of Clare. On October the
`6th, at seven o'clock in the evening, the steward of a steam.
boat was violently assaulted by five men, because he got his
supply of milk from parties to whom they objected, and did
not deal with those which they desired. Another case hap-
pened on the 25th of August, in the county of Leitrim of a
similar character. In the county of Roscommon three car-
riers were violently assaulted by seven men, because they fed
their horses at the house of a particular party, and not at a
place where the assaulting persons were desirous they should do so.
There was another case which he could quote contained in the
returns he had laid upon the table of the House that evening ;
but he thought he had already read a sufficient quantity ot
these cases. He had read more of this class than he had origi-
nally intended, because they tended to show that crime
could only exist where, by some means or other, society had
been greatly disorganised. Now, with the permission of the
House, he would read a class of cases under the heads of '6Pre-
venting the Recovery of Debts," and " The Enforcement of
I Contracts." In January last, Michael Doctrine, in the county
of Roscommon, was seriously maltreated because he had en-
forced a contract in returning a cow which did not turn our
according to agreement. In February, a man named Mac Carty
was waylaid and brutally ill-used because he recovered money on
certain I 0 U vouchers. On the 7th April, in the same city, I.
man named Thomas Croft was " sworn" to refund a debt which
he had received ten years before. He felt he was trespassin
too long upon the time and attention of the House with thes
details, but it was necessary that he should go into them, is
order that the House should see the necessity for passing thi•
Bill. There was, therefore, another class of eases to whicL
he must refer. They were comprised under the heads ot
" compelling people to marry," " not to marry," or " to giv,
fortunes to particular persons going to get married." On the
31st January last, Michael Byron, a comfortable farmer in
Roscommon, was " sworn" to fulfil his promise to marry "
certain female." On 21st February Richard Guyer's house
was burned, to prevent a particular marriage taking place.
About the same period a man named Turners was beaten,
and " sworn to marry a particular female." The
next class of cases to which he must call the at.
tension of the House, arose out of giving evident
against persons who violated the law ; but it would only b,
necessary for him to read one case of this class. On the 22ne
of September, a man named Smith, living in Roscommon, and
his daughter, were seriously maltreated and beaten, for having
given evidence in a particular case. Another case of the same
nature had lately occurred in the county of Leitrim, where a
widow was " sworn " to intimidate her son not to prosecute a
charge which had been preferred against certain parties of
having murdered her husband in 1844. He would no,s,
with the permission of the House, read to them some de-
tails which he received yesterday in the ordinary course of
his official routine. There were five cases reported to him,
and three of them were cases of gross interference with the
social and domestic relations of life. He hoped the House
would understand why he had selected these particular classed
of cases. He had done so because it had been stated by Hon.
Gentlemen opposite that the outrages perpetrated in Ireland
were principally of an agrarian character. There was one par-
ticular case of an agrarian character, which had recently come
to his knowledge, and which he must read to the House. It
occurred in the county of Roscommon, where three men, armed
with pistols and bludgeons, broke into the house of a poor man,
and demanded that be should go down on his knees to be
"sworn." The man refused to do so without knowing why
t htheni
a w,
and wherefore, and the consequence was he was immediately
fired at and woundediztehssrieoenpiaorftasvoofuhriosfbohdiys body.
brother-in-law,
e r was_
jil ro
'w‘liswoohrand"otcocugpivied t
e up
possession
cottage and lands some seven years be-
fore. He thought he had sufficiently shown the House that
there was no relationship in life in Ireland, either social ,
or domestic, which was not interfered with ; while, if
the House would take the trouble to look into the c ses
they would find that it was impossible in many parts of the
country that public d
be asked what was the
en-
tered into these detal , he might
coulduitises be performed. Having
answer that question. From
the evidence before Lord Devon's
cause of these outrages,o but he regretted his inability to
Commission, it would
out of an organised system
nt
he manner he had stated. He prevailing, in the country to avenge
a Roman Catholic sessional solicitor, that these outrages arose
disputes and satisfy malice
now came to another important part of the statement he was
anxious to make to the House. The Hon. and Learned
Member for Cork, incidentally observed the other night, that
since the introduction of this
Bill crime had considerably
1 learned Member diminished in Ireland, and the Hon. an
at-
tributed that diminution to the exertions Government were
making to remove the distress which existed in many parts of
Ireland. He admitted that to some extent crime might have
diminished within the last three or four months in Ireland,
but when he looked
the days lee.,
did not think that •
lie was ready to ad
of this Bill. to the cause of that diminution, he
Hitherto
could be urged against the second reading
lengthened
dheqo it had been ascertained that as
admit
diminished. And to some extent
Riving employment
tmit that the measures of Government for
to the destitute poor had tended to reduce
crime in Ireland; but let him remind the House that both
it.
remedyewadsi,sttrheessreafnodret,hetheir
dut wtaos of a temporary character, and
ftor the future. lie,
to. this supposed di-
however, deeply regretted tliTat with
regard
the Hon. and
osf
t the evening
m'nution of crime, it was his duty torefina
had felt
fwellttich he,
Learned Member for Cork. In the earl
he laid upon the table of the House certaiyn ppar
had alluded in the course of the observations papers
duty to address to the House; they were the returns ot crimes
perpetrated in Ireland from the 31st December to the
31. t,
May, the first five months in the present year. He regretted
that these returns had rant been in the hands of Hon. Members
to enable them to cheek or compare his statements with the de-
tailed returns, but the truth was they only reached him yesterday,
and, of course, he could not lay them on the table before that
evening. This was a return of all aggravated c: imes, assaults, and
other offences which were committed between the month of May,
1845, and the month of May, 1846. It was only necessary,
in order to substantiate the correctness of this comparison,
that he should state that this return did not include outrages
or injuries designated as assaults on the police; neither did it

include murders or homicides—for this reason, that the Hon.
and Learned Member for Clonmel (Mr. Pigot) moved for a
return of murders and homicides during a corresponding
period, and which was presented to the House on Monday last,
and he oely regretttd that it was not in his hands at that mo-
ment. He would now proceed to make a comparison between
the number of offences committed in Ireland during the first
five months of last year and the corresponding period of the
present year; and he must admit, at the same time, that in
consequence of these papers not having reached his hands
before the previous day, he was not able to make so accurate
and precise a comparison as he could have wished, but if Hon.
Gentlemen would have the kindness to read them over care-
fully, he was quite sure that, with the exception of Leitrim,
the counties which had been noted for crime had not at all im-
proved with regard to their amount of crime within the last
five months.—( Hear, fret. ) In the county of Leitrim he did
rejoice to say 'and he congratulated the Noble Lord the Nlem-
ber for that county on this fact) that there had been a con-
siderable diminution of crime during- the last five months.—
( Hear, hear.) But he believed that the Noble Lent would
be able, much better than he could do, to establish to the
House good grounds with reeard to the diminution of crime in
that particular county, and which in his ( Lord Lincoln's ) opi-
nion would tend very considerably to strengthen the arguments in
elvour of this Hill ratifier than diminish them. And reiw with
regard to the comparison of crime in these five counties, as
compared with the whole of Ireland during the past five
months. During that period there had been, in the whole of
Ireland, of the class of crimes to which he had alluded, 2,093;
but in the five counties in question 1,188 of those crimes hail been perpetrated, being considerably more than one-half of
the crimes committed in the whole of Ireland. Now, without
going into detail, because he had not time to do so, he would
make a brief comparison in the gross between the number of
crimes committed in the different counties in Ireland, and
from the statement he thought the House would see that there
had, in fact been no diminution of crime in Ireland during the
last five months, with the exception of the county of Leitrim.
In Clare there had been 171 cases of crime. In Leitrim 138.
In Limerick (and he begged to observe, that with regard to Li.
merick, the amount was very considerable in proportion to its
population), 210 cases. In Roscommon, he regretted to say,
there had been no diminution, but a very great increase, 378.
In Tipperary, 286; making, as he before said, 1,188 cases for
the five counties in question, whilst in the whole of Ireland
there had only been 2,o93.—(Hear, hear.) Now, as
he had this return in his hand, and as he remarked to
the House in a former part of his statement that these offences
were of a local nature, he would read a few particulars as to
the population of the counties now under comparison. He had already stated that in the county ofßoscommon, during the
last five months, there had been 383 offences, and the popula-
tion of that county was 253,000. He was glad to see the
Hon. Member for Kerry now in his place on the opposite
benches. Kerry contained a much larger population than
Roscommon, the number of its people amounting to 293,000;
but in the county of Kerry, during the same period, there had
been only sixteen offences, whilst in Roscommon there were
383.—( Hear. hear.) He would now refer the House to the
number of offences committed in the county of Limerick ; the
population of tt at county amounted only to 281,009, and vet
the number of crimes was 210. Now in the county of Lei-
trim, as he before stated, the number of crimes was 138, whilst
the population of that county was 155,000 In the adjoining
county of Fermanagh, the porulation of which was 166,000,
the number of offences was only. 14. In the county of Antrim,
with '460,000 inhabitants, the offences were only 17. In the
countyof Dublin, ea'AusAve of the city of Dublin, with a po-
pulation of 146,000, thee amount of offences was only four.
Now he thought "chat these facts would clearly establish the
grounds which h'e. raa ntained for the necessity of passing some
coercive measure to affect the five counties in Ireland where
crime was so r',se. He admitted, with the Hon. Baronet who
moved areeendment, that it was the duty of any Govern-
thins kfhePeitroducing a measure of this nature, to prove three
rand. in the first place they were bound to prove that an
evil mete d which ought to be met by some means or other.
Now, he did think that if they would look to the proofs which
had beeei laid before the House on the former debates on this
Country, that the case was made out—clearly proving the
et ence of such an evil.. He also thought that the poufs he
h. rsr', laid before the House that evening showed that there had
-vien not any diminution in crime within the last five months,
and he thought he might assume that the Hon. Baronet who
moved this amendment could not complain that a sufficient
iase had not been made out for enactments of this kind. The
Hon. Baronet stated that it was the duty of the Government
to prove that they had attempted to meet these offences by the
ordinary law, and that they had failed in so doing. He alluded
to the caie of Westmeath, to show that had special
commissions been issued, the existing state of things
night have been prevented. In referring to that
case, the Honourable Baronet had forgotten to tell
'he House the circumstances under which that special commis-
-inn was issued. Now, the circumstances which led to the
issuing of that special commission in the county of Westmeath,
were these, that there had previously been not only a consider.
dable accumulation of officers ; but what was, of course, of
0-eater importance as regarded the commission, a very consider»
able accumulation of prisoners within the gaol. Under those
eircumstances he believed that the Lord-Lieutenant was applied
o by certain magistrates and gentry to issue a special com-
mission. The Government hesitated for some time as to the
propriety of so doing. The Government doubted whether
sufficient ground existed for the issuing of the commission, and
they employed proper persons to ascertain whether such grounds
did exist ; and the result was, that the commission was issued.
But the Hon. Baronet asked why a special commission was not
issued for the five counties. The answer was obvious, that al-
though the state of crime was so rife, and although the number
of outrages was so great, yet the instances of detection were so
few, the committals were so rare, that there would be no
justification for the issue of a commission on those counies for
it would in reality end in nothing. But let 'him
(the Earl of Lincoln) remind the House—when they were
now taxed with not issuing special commissions—when they
were now charged by the Hon. Baronet the Member for
Drogheda, and also by the Hon. and Learned Member for
Cork, with the negligence of duty in consequence of their not
issuing special commissions—let him remind the House that
those were not the views that had been entertained generally
by Hon. Gentlemen opposite. Unless he very greatly mis-
took, Lord Althorp in introducing the Bill of 1833, dwelt
particularly upon the total inadequacy of special commissions
to meet crimes of the kind in question.—(Hear, hear.)
That Noble Lord stated reasons which he (the Earl of Lin-
coln) thought were sound and good. Let him remind
the House also that when in 1835 the Coercion Bill, of a less
stringent character, was introduced, the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman for Cork deprecated the issuing of special com-
missions, and stated that the Government having declined the
attempt to diminish crime by such means, had, in his opinion,
taken a wise and prudent course. In support of this
statement he could quote Hansard, but he had no
desire to do so. He must observe at the same time
'hat before they could show the desirableness of issuing a spe-
cial commission, they must show that they could produce the
necessary evidence to prosecute. Now he was encouraged to
maintain this position by reading a short extract from the evi-
dence of Mr. Cahill, given before Lord Devon. That gentle-
man was asked whether he believed that the perpetrators of
agrarian outrages were known by the peasantry where they
were committed, and his answer was, that he was perfectly con-
vinced that the parties knew everything of the transaction, hut
that there was little disposition to give any evidence against the
iierpetrators. He was then asked to what he attributed that
disposition, and he replied that it was not attributable to any
terror, but rather a dislike to injure those of the class to which
they belonged.—(Hear, hear, from the opposition. ) He stated
also that such murderers were harboured and protected, and, in
point of fact, were looked upon as better men than others, be.
cause they put down what they called a tyrant.
They re-
ceived the character of what they called a" good boy."—( Hear. )
Chat showed the difficulty of obtaining evidence. Perhaps
the Hon. Baronet the Member for Clonmell was entitled at
his hands to a peculiar explanation. He could give minute
information with respect to the number of offences in the five
counties he had enumerated, and the number of committals.
The total number of offences was 1,188, nut of which number
here were•only 54 committals. In Tipperary the number of
offences was 285, and 19 committals. In the county of Lime-
rick the number of offences was 210, and 12 committi Is. In
Leitrim there was 133 offences committed, and 8 committals.
le Clare the number of offences was 171, and the committal'
were 7. In Rosscommon, where he was sorry that crime was
on the increase, out of the large number of offences, 383, there
had been only 8 committals, in consequence of the unwilling.
ness of witnesses to come forward. The great majority of
those offences were committed during the night. In the
county of Tipperary between 130 and 140 of the offences were
committed at night.
Mr. DENISON—Not offences against life.
Lord LINCOLN resumed. Between 130 and 140 were
committed at night, and on the average between 60 and 70 in
the day time, 'The same proportion prevailed in the
other counties. The principles which were intended to be
embodied in this measure were similar in effect
to those which were already extended to districts in England
when cases of rebellion or rioting occurred. In every case of
riot the district was mulcted for the offences committed within
its range. There was another provision which was essentially
different from the Act of 1835, and that was to give power to
the Lord Lieutenant to proclaim any district instead of vesting
the power in the hands of the grand jitry and gentlemen of the
county. He was astonished that any objection was made to
that provision. He believed that in 1833 the Minister, in his
place in Parliament, although he admitted that military tri-
bunals were very objectionable, yet still they were preferable to
the grand juries in Ireland as they were then constituted.
'i'he Honourable Member for Cork had said that there was at
present an opportunity for parties to traverse from the de
vision of the grand juries, but there would be no means
of traversing from the opinion of the Lord Lieutenant. But,
he would ask, would not that House serve as a check upon the
manifestation of any extraordinary or improper power by the
Lord-Lieutenant ?—( Cheers.) Was not that- power sufficient
to restrain any Lord-Lieutenant from improperly abusing the
powers with which he might be vested. The penalty in this
Bill was certainly more severe than in the former Bill. He
had understood on the first reading, that the Noble Lord the
Member for the city of London intended to move an amend-
ment on this clause in Committee, and he was surprised that the
Noble Lord should now turn round so soon, and make
this clause a reason for throwing out the whole Bill.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I propose to omit the clause
altogether.

ford LINCOLN understood that it was his intention to
move an amendment in Committee, and he should be glad to
hear if he opposed the Bill on principle, at what period it was
since the year 1835 that his opinions had changed upon the
subject of coercive measures. It had been stated that the
Government adopted coercive measures and had neglected
conciliatory measures. He would ask whether the Charitable
Bequests Bill was not a proof of the good spirit in which they
had conducted the Government of the country ? Did not the
Government introduce a measure for the endowment of May-
nooth, which gave considerable offence to their friends?Pknother
measure was calculated to extend the system of national edu-
cation. Then, again, with reference to the landlord and
tenant question. The Hon. Member, who complained of the
Government not bringing in a Bill founded on the report of the
Devon Commission, eculd not have looked very attentively on
the paper or he would
Friday
seen that h
heis hiandteogiiovoentonototioceveaftoar
date not later than neat, of
the measures
tei
their
ewnhdiecahvtohuer
s. Government
The y
hadha d
leave to introduce threeh. Btriellassfienunldreedlaonnd,tthheesiermoepapsounreens.ts And
d
extent, food and employment
They had had to endure the
o
reproach of former
adoptedtgii,irio given
with(i
provided,
d t
h, toereferencethem dt to
t el
not deserve ; they had
would not have received out of the
which he was sure they
which
hwhich they felt they did
House—opprobrium wh
had voted considerable sums for the
for the people of Ireland.afgrien
party purposes. They
to bear reproach in Parliament
on
tetldiemlarfgoer
promotion of public works ;_
hadb n done
.on what been friends,
theyd on only
db e
also
castd
they would look back in after years u;
in the present day by the Government
as a proof They had sane-
isturpi
feeling of the Government towards them.
quantities of Indian meal among the people of Loeflatnhde,gaenodd
twthiooenrk:sda,rtt,he
,o.hf expenditurech ,
individual
when
npoorfmo
ieoet.o
teoadr:/w. forou dt h
involve promotion o
n onf t
auyh lei
ne
of half a million of money,
and would, of course, give both food and employment for a
considerable time to the people in the districts where the works
were constructed, and would also provide a valuable return for
the capital invested. He considered that although the Govern-
ment had done nauch,agreat deal could yet be done by private in-
dividuals, but so long as the country remained in its present
disturbed state it could not b expected that the landlords would
invest their capital. If Hon. Members opposite wished to deprive
the landlords of any excuse for not remaining in the country
they should pass the present Bill. He felt himself bound to

make these observations in consequence Of the challenge which
had been given him to Pilots; the necessity which existed for the
present measure. It eas easy to charge the .3overnment with
tyranny and oppreseian, and to make long and
eloquee' speeehet cn the subject. He felt that
if the. Government had proposed this measure as a
panacea for the evils of IreWrid, that then they would have
been j istitied in pursuing the course they had adopted; but
the Government bad brotlght in this Bill avowedly as a
corrective for a disorganised state of society—as a corrective
without which any measure, however gocd in itself, could
hays no satisfactory operation. The Government owned that
they did not look on the Bill as likely to change permanently
the social system of Iceland, but simply as a preparatory mea-
sure ; and it was on that view and on that principle that it had
been introduced. He, for one, was perfectly ready to admit
his opinion as to the impossibility of any longer permitting
Ireland to iterate beiwe.en lawless despotism aid ultra con-
stet u tonal enactments. ( Hear, hear.) And when he
made that a imission it was not at variance with the
principle of the Bill, and he knew it was not at variance with
the seer t aith hich the Government looked upon the measure.
He wag prepared te give his pri cilia' support to it on this view,
believieg !hat it was a measure calculated to restore peace and
harmony to the (~urpry. And looking at the measure in this
sprit he vet ore ! to call upon that House to prove by its votes
to-nie ht. that they •Aill coca'rit, ho:vever reluctantly, to suspend
the lee whenever lawless violence i rife, rather than all law
should he set at varisece, and the lives and property of the sub-
jec's of the realm j..opartlised and endangered, and the peace-
ful security of the nrighb •urhood set at nought and destroyed,
Mr. MORGAN IO:l N O'CONNELL—There was one ad-
vantage which the Neble Lord ago just addressed the Howe
had over any si.ealter wile might follow him, and that was by the
conciliatory tont, which characterised his speech, and he would
himself endeavour to follow the example he had so eloquently
set. If he believed ihet this Bill was what its title pretended it
to he, no party consid,ra-ion, or no consideration of any other
kind would prevent bite from giving it his support.—( Hear,
hear.) But the arguments of the Noble Lord had failed com-
pletely to convince him, arid he had heard with very great sur-
prise the statement of the Noble Lord, that crime was rather on
the increase in Ireland than on the diminution. He had,
however, some constitutional mistrust of the reports coming
from the constabulary, when those reports were calculated to
bear out the views of Government, and he advised the Noble
Lord now, and he advised any man about to be Secretary for
Ireland, (and it would be very hard to say who might be
Secretary for Ireland next year) to adopt for their first rule to
distrust the constabulary ; and the next rule he would give
them would be to distrust the law adviser for the Crown,—
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord used a phrase which gave
him great surprise; he had told them that this Bill was a
temporary remedy for a temporary emergency. But did they
know that this temporary remedy was brought in as permanent
in its nature in another place ? The Noble Lord had quoted
largely from the constabulary returns, but a great proportion
of these outrages were not agrarian. He did not know on
what principle these returns were made, but he was afraid
they were made in very nearly a similar manner to those which
were made when the Arms Bill was brought forward. The
first use made of that Act was to deprive of arms all who were
repeaters ; in a county too, which was not a disturbed county.
That was the first use made of it by an Irish magistracy in
one of the counties of Ireland. He, therefore, warned the
House that instead of using the new powers which were con-
ferred by this 13ill for the obj-et intended, the magistracy
of Ireland would use it, not for its purpose of suppressing out-
rage, hut for destroying the liberties of the people, and sup-
pressing the freedom of discussion. Many clauses of the Bill
were fraught with the most serious mischief to the people,
and would entail the greatest injury if carried into effect.
He believed that a law which would alter the agrarian system
of Ireland would have more effect in doing away with crime in
that country than if they were to introduce such a measure as
the present for years to came. This was what was wanted for
Ireland. Alter the landed system of the country, and they
would find the go :d results of that alteration in the continued
emseerity, and the Oval cessation of crime.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed that whatever was good for the tenantry of Ire-
land would he equally gJod for the landlord—that which was
goad for the one would be good for the other, and the whole
country would feel the beneficial results of that all-important
change.—( aear, hear.) He hoped the Irish representatives
on both sides of the House, who during the whole period of
the session had displayed a spirit of generosity towards their
country, would not now be found wanting in substituting for
the measure before the House that which would be a lasting
good, instead of adopting that which would only entail more
misery, and revive that crime which slid not now exist.—( Hear.)
He hoped that he might be pardoned for alluding to one
question, more especially as it might be remembered that he
did not trouble the House much that session on Irish affairs.
—(Hear, hear.) He was about to allude to the Established
Church of Ireland, and in alluding to it he did not wi-h to
cause anything like a division amongst the Iri h representa-
tives who differed with him on that question. He thought,
however, that he might with great propriety impress upon them
the necessity of taking that question into consideration,
while they hart the opportunity of settling it amicably, instead
of waiting till that period when they would be forced to
concede much more than the country were now willing to
accept.—( Hear, hear. ) The people of Ireland would now be
satisfied with a moderate reform in the Church establishment
of that country, comparatively with that which they would
demand at a future period, when the subject would be forced
upon the consideration of Parliament, and when nothing
less than a radical change in the whole system would
satisfy them.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to the measure
before the House, her Majesty's Ministers would do well to
consider that the spirit of the age was not in favour of coercion.
—( Hear, hear.) The spirit of the age was spoken out by her
Majesty's Government, when, a short time since, they told the
hHacd) use
b e
ethatn tthhe had a
ey
habit
of aban
doned ho n
gt,tos e principles
in
eette
reformed which
phi
reiyt
of the country.—( Hear, hear.) He called upon the House
and upon her Majesty's Ministers not to make this Bill an ex-
ception to that new spirit of reform which had forced itself
up on the Legislature; and feeling, as he did, that it was a
measure calculated to do irreparale injury, and work more
mischief than it could possibly put down, he should vote against
it.— (Cheers. )
Lord G. BENTINCK said it would be in the recollection
of the House that he gave his advice to her Majesty's
Government, that if this measure was necessary for the
suppression of crime in Ireland, it ought, to take
precedence of many questions then about to be entertained.
It would also be remembered that at that time it was a measure
ofthan many others, and it would be remem-
beredor ethatemergency whnthe measure was brought down to that House,
her Majesty's Ministers most solemnly impressed upon
them the necessity of immediately passing it into a law. Not-
withstanding that necessity six weeks had elapsed before it was
again brought forward. When this Bill stood for a first read-
ing there leas no House, and when it was remembered that
there were two Government nights when it could have been
brought forward, and on one of those nights the House ad.
journedat nine o'clock, could it be said by her Majesty's Minis-
ters that there was any wish to press the measure?—(Hear,
hear.) On the contrary he was of opinion that there was no
desire whatever to press it, and those opportunities of bringing
it forward were allowed to pass away. The casus federis
hail now arrived when it behoved the party with which he
(Lord George Rentinek) acted, to stand forward and
prove to the Right Honourable Baronet that they were
determined to act for themselves.—( Great cheering.)
He could not help remarking that it appeared to him that
crime in Ireland had diminished as the days had grown longer,
and therefore, if this measure was to have been passed at all,
it should have been passed when the days were short; but, in-
stead of that it had been postponed till the month of June.—
( Hear, hear.) Now, it so happened, that he found that,
during the month of June crime had considerably diminished,
for it appeared by the returns tha' in the month of June, last
year, the various crimes amounted to 896, while in the same
month of this year, they did not exceed 820, and in the month
of May they were only. 708. Contrasting these returns with
the amount of crime committed in the months of November
and Deefinaber, they were respectively 602 and 607, so that the
Noble Chief Secretary of State for Ireland did appear to
he very well informed as to the state of crime in
Ireland--(Hear, hear)—and when the Noble Lord came
here for the purpose of rescuing the Government from defeat,
he ( Lard G. Bentinek) did not this k he was very successful.—
( Hear, hear.) Indeed, the Noble Lord did not appear to have
given muds attention to Irish affairs, when he appears to have
been totally unconscious of the resistance of such a town as
Caolebar.—( Cheers and laughter.) Now he (Lord George
Ben'inek) should say he could see no cause for passing in the
month of June a measure that was needed in the month of
February. In comparing
perlB4 6, he
could not find that crime cent.,had
and he would say that such an increase would not justify the
the
increased year
l 84b5eyto on
that.
of
Government in passing
such a measure as this, after having
brandished it before the people of Ireland so long with
being in earnest in their desire to carry it.—(Cheers.) In
comparing the amount of crime committed in each of the two
years he had mentioned, he fiend that the crimes of incen-
diarisre, robbery of arms, firing at with intent to kill, threaten .
ing no ices, and such like, amounted in the aggregate, in the
first five months of the year 18'6, to 786; while within the
last three months they amounted to only 554. In the first five
months of last year those crimes amounted to 815; while in
the same period of this year crimes of a more mitigated cha-
racter in the first five months of last, year amounted to 1,701 ;
while in this year they did not exceed 1,500.—( Hear, hear. )
The Noble Lord had told the House that this was a permanent
measure to meet a temporary emergency—that was to say, that
it was a measure which was intended to have met an eine',
gency that had taken place five months ago.—(Loud cheers.)
Now, these were some of the reasons which induced him to
oppose this measure upon thi, occasion; but he had still much
more grave and important reasons for doing so. One of them
was, that he could assure the House that the gentlemen who
sat around him would refuse to trust her Majesty's
Government.—(Renewed cheers.) And if they hal no other
reasons, he conceived they had quite enough in the double '
dealing which the Government had displayed.—( Cheers.) The
House had been deceived by the statements that had been made
by her Majesty's Ministers four months ago. They were told
four moiths ago that there was a famine in Ireland, and that
four millions of the people were starving there—( Hear, hear)
—but after that had occurred he could not see how any man of
sense could trust her Majesty's present Ministers.--( Hear,
hear.) He would not now stop to discuss the merits of this
measure, but
h would ask if it were necessary for the peace of
Irentiol did any man believe the Government would carry it ?
Ile would say that they never meant to carry it. He would ask
whither any oee who understood the forms of this House did not
behave *hat the session would be long over before this measure
would be dragged through the House of Commons?—(Cheers.)
There might he some Hon. Members opposite who were under
the imeression that such a measure might have been necessary,
but they could rot believe that, even if it were passee, the Go-
vernment ever tweet to carry it into law.—(hear, hear.)
Therefore he would say it was a waste of time, a mockery and
an insult to the people of Ireland, to brandish this measure in
their face, which was never meant to be carried into a law, and
therefore he would do his hest to prevent that mockery being
done.—(Loud cheers.) The Government said that they were
as much in earnest in carrying this measure as they were about
the corn-law; but how differently had they dealt with R.—
( Hear, hear.) In the ease of the corn-laws all days were alike—
Goverment days and all others—and it was forced on
with all the zeal of new converts.—( Loud cheers.)
They had short holidays and short notices of holidays. They
were worked up till the eve of Good Friday, and then they
only adjourned till the Friday following. gut no sooner was
the Corn Bill through, and the Coercion Bill introduced, than
there was an alteratiou. If the Ministers really believed the
Bill was necessary for the protection of life and property in
Ireland, why had they thus procrastinated it? Why had so
much valuable time been lost in pushing it forward ?—( Hear,
fo oel
th.l
hear, and cheers. No sooner was the Coercion Bill intro-
ducedr
than they had long holidays—(Cheers)—and on Tuesday
nh the, adjourned
jtd!Hsotuoy rt,isns
House
IR
iarni tdi
,httaehlrefs-
countrypaws sevenetre
in o
enoughecksi
n\Vt
hat oes
introduction of this Bill ?—( Hear, hear.) Believing that '
they were not in earnest, the sooner the House got rid of the
Bill and her Majesty's Ministers the better.—( Tremendous
believeth and
ere Thursday
any
thatm a nhe ti
cheering from the protectionists.) With this view of the
question he c,
,esidered he should delay no longer to state on
the part of the friends around him the course they were pre-
pared to take.
They would have preferred to support a mo-
tion of no confidence, still he would accept the question as it
wasbelieved
before the House, and if the Government they
to carry on the affairs of the t
were not in a position
country i t
was time for them to retire.T h y ail been told by Sir R.
Peel, on a former occasion, that he would not consent to be
a Miniver on suffnee. Was he not such a Minis-
ter•
e„
now ? :Sometimes depending on gentlemen on
on one side of the House, and sometimes on those around him
(Lord George Bentinok), and supiorted throughout by none

EVENING, JtINP 0,164 d:

hut his paid ianisiarieli.--(toud cheers from the protectionists.)
Many of those who after voting expressed their shame at what
they had been obliged to do. If such was the state of the Go-
vernment, it was time to speak out and declare their sense of
, its conduct by totihg rigat'nst the measure. He asked the
_night Ron, Baronet if he had not lost the confidence of every
honest man in
.that House—( Loud cheers)—and not only in
that House, but of every hor est man in the country?—(Con-
tinued cheering.) In the course he had pursued, he
had been inconstant to all with whom he had any con-
nexion.. He (Lord , George
member
recollected how
he had hunted down mtheer t
line
fMinistry,
in 1827, for a departure from
though the consis-
tency on another question, rhtinl';onn Baron
supported the same measure in 1829. In 1822 he told the
House, in supporting the measure, that he changed his opinion
in 1825, when he was connected with the Earlof Liverpool'st
Government.--( Hear, hear.)
.That, however, did
vent him, in 1827, separating from Mr. Cannin
's ndovperrne-
g
ment. If it was base, and dishonest, and inconsistent with the
duty of a Minister to the Sovereign then, to maintain opinions
after he had changed them, did not the Right Hon.
Baronet
stand convicted on the verdict of base and dishonest conduct,
and of being inconsistent in his duty
to the Sovereign in the
course he had pursued?—(Loud protectionist c h.eers. ) Let
them recollect his conduct in 1827, and compare
it with what
it was in 1825 and 1829, and bear in mind that coun-
trythee would not twice submit to the same conduct. ( Hear,
It was time the country should know—it was time Europe
should know—it was time the world should know—that
treachery had been committed by the Ministers in power.
They certainly did not represent the feelings of the people, for
the corn-laws might be lost to the agricultural interest—do-
mestic industry might suffer—they might be betrayed. Europe
must not think—America must not think—the world must not
think that England was committed, or that England had par-
ticipated in the guilt of those who sat on • the Treasury
benebes.—(Cheers.) The time had come, when those Gen-
tlemen who had been glad to avail themselves of the
treason of the Right Hon. Baronet, and Honourable Gentle-
men who considered the Right Hon. Baronet to be
traitor to his principles, to combine in denouncing, the conduct
of her Majesty's Ministers, and in telling the Ministry that they
should no longer presume to insult the country.—(Cheers.)
The time had come when, by placing the Government in a
minority, they could drive them from power, and thus wipe
away that dishonour which had been forced upon Parliament
by a renegade Ministry, and vindicate the character of the
British senate in the eyes of America, in the eyes of Europe,
and in the eyes of the world.—(Loud and continued cheering.)
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said he had upon a previous oc-
casion ventured to trespass upon the time of the House for
some length, upon the subject of the Bill which had that night
for the second time been discussed, upon which had arisen so
much of acrimonious debate, and during which so many
charges had been urged against the Government—(lrorical
cheers)—charges which were seldom urged—charges which
were couched in language little heard in that House—( Renewed
cheers)— charges and language which he confessed for the sake
of preserving the character of the House ought seldom, if ever,
to be used—(Renewed cheering)—charges which he would not
repeat, urged in terms which he would not retaliate so long as
he had any self-respect for his own character—so long as he
had any respect fsr the character, the temper, and reputation of
that House.—(Continued cheering.) Nor would he impute
to others motives which he scorned to be influenced by himself ;
nor would he, under any temptation whatever import into that
House terms, language, and insinuations which were better
suited to some other arena - than that in which gentlemen of
station, influence, and character were assembled to discuss
calmly, deliberately, and dispassionately measures vitally affect-
ing the great interest of this country.—( Cheers.) The Noble
Lord had stated that her Majesty's Ministers could not be in
earnest in pressing this Bill. The Noble Lord founded that
supposition on the fact that now, in June, when he had
discovered that the days were long they were
pressing on the measure, but the Noble Lord forgot
how upon another measure he and his party wasted night after
night with long speeches, devoid of argument, put forward to
meet facts which could not be contradicted.—( Cries of " Oh,
oh.") But granting that the speeches contained argument—
granting that the facts were capable of being shaken by the
trifling experience, or the seeming eloquence of the Noble
Lord, he put it to the House whether it was possible for the
Government to have brought the second reading of this Bill
forward earlier than they had done.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord had said that the Government should have brought
this Bill forward before the Corn Bill —( Hear, hear.) That
might be the opinion of the Noble Lord, but it was not the
opinion of the country. The Noble Lord, whose powers of in-
credulity were so great—( Cries of "Ohl oh !")—now told the
House that there was no necessity for interfering with the
liberties of the people of Ireland. He now told them, after
three weeks' experience, that the course which:he had taken a
few days ago was utterly unsound.—(" Oh oh I") He (Mr.
S. Herbert) conceived that his conduct in that House had not
disentitled himself to its attention—( Hear, hear)—and he
thought he might be permitted to make a few observa-
tions with regard to what had fallen from the Noble Lord,
and he thought that even the Noble L. would admit that he
was not disentitled himself to its attention.—( Hear, hear. )
As he had before said, the Noble Lord now, ,Iter three weeks'
experience, told the House that there was no necessity for any
interference with the privileges of the Irish people ; but a
short time ago he was so keen for this Bill, that he could not
allow the discussion to go on in the regular course, and in sup-
port of the Bill he cited cases in which women had been at-
tacked, fire-arms discharged into poor men's cottages, old ladies
attacked as they were returning from church in the broad day.
There was no language sufficiently strong to express his indig-
nation at the conduct of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord said that on the heads of those who opposed the
passing of this Bill would rest the blood of the murdered men
of Ireland.--( Hear, hear.) Upon whose head did the blood
of the murdered men now rest?—(Hear, hear.) Suddenly,
upon no change of circumstances in that country—at three
weeks notice—the Noble Lord turned round short, and said,
" We were anxious to prevent these atrocious crimes against
God and man, but now our opinion is changed; this ehange
does not arise from any regard to the welfare of the country—
there are other reasons for our conduct—(A laugh)—it is not
that we love Ireland less, but that we hate more the men
who at present hold the reins of Government.—(Laughter,
cheers, and " Oh, oh," from the Protectiodist benches.)
Did the Noble Lord now take this course because he conceived
it would be necessary for the benefit of the country ? No; but
because there were 'Other reasons which' prompted
him to do so. The Noble Lord had made use of sin-
gular logic on this question, and he (Mr. Herbert)
conld not have any affinity' with the political
opinions of the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord had said the
other night, that because a gentleman, who in his opinion had
qualities which entitled him to reign in the hearts of the people
of Ireland—(Hear, hear)—so great was his respect for those
qualities which would so attach him to the whole of that people
that he (Lord G. Bentinck ) was ready to sacrifice his opinions
whatever they might be—(No, no)—in order to carry out his
views on this subject.—(No, no.) If it were deemed neces-
sary, he could quote the exact words of the Noble Lord. The
Noble Lord had said, because the Hon. Member in question
(Mr. W. S. O'Brien) had reigned in the hearts of the Irish
people, he was prepared to'make a proposal to him on the sub-
ject of his Bill on the corn-law. The Noble Lord said, " It
you will propose to this House that the corn-law shall be sus-
pended, though I believe there is no necessity for it, and
though I believe it will do harm—(" Hear, hear," from the
protectionists)—yet such was the logical inference to which
the Noble Lord came, that although he believed there was no
necessity for the measure, and that it was totally wrong. be
would vote for it, because, as he said to the Hon. Member,
" you are the man who reigns in the hearts of the people of
Ireland."—(Cries of "No, no.") He therefore, saw
some consistency in the course which the Noble
Lord was now taking. The Honourable Member for
Limerick, who reigned in the hearts of the people
of Ireland was bitterly opposed to this measure, and yet the
Noble Lord, who was ready to vote, was prepared to vote for
the measure because it was supported by that Hon. Gentleman,
and because it was wrong. The Noble Lord was now ready to
oppose this measure, because it was likely to be opposed by that
Hon. Gentleman, whose popularity was great amongst that por-
tion of the people of Ireland who were disposed to dismember
the United Kingdom. Now he ( Mr. Herbert) would not go
back into every case which the Noble Lord had adduced. They
had had enough of discussion already on the subject of the
Corn Bill, and he did not think that the House would
go over the same ground. The Noble Lord might
make his accusations of treachery, and he might
say that in consequence of their conduct, they had forfeited
his confidence—( Hear)—but he (Mr. Herbert) must say that
if the present Government was to cease holding office—(Pro-
tectionist cheers)—after the exhibitions he had seen—after
the willingness he had seen—on the part of the Noble Lord to
sacrifice his opinions at three weeks' notice, and to ally him-
self to a political party with whom he could not have any faith,
as to the loss that they were threatened with, the least that he
should care for would be the loss of the confidence of the
Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Noble Lord
had said that the Government were not in earnest in pressing
forward this Bill, arid he quoted cases with that unfortunate
love of arithmetic which disposed of human life as it did of
tallow and hides. He said that there had been 552 homicides;
only in such a tone as to intimate, that in his opinion, those
cases were not worth the notice of the Government. He had
also said there were so many threatening notices ; and his
whole tone had been to the effect, that the Government had
not the slightest reason to interfere in the manner proposed.—
He (Mr. Herbert) thought the people of this country would
judge between the Noble Lord.—(Cheers, and counter cheers.)
The people know full well and will know how to value the
professions—(lronical cheers) -of the Noble Lord, who but a
short time since hurled his threatenings with so much force
against his own party with whom he is now allied.
—(Great uproar.) We have introduced the mea-
sure, because we think it necessary to do so-
--(Loud cheers, and cries of dissent.) How was it the Noble
Lord, who vote:l for the first reading of the Bill only a few
nights ago, now turned round suddenly, without any fresh
statement?—(Uproar.) He would tell the Noble Lord for
his satisfaction, that the Government would persevere in the
measure in spite of all his sarcasms and factious combinations.
—(lmmense uproar.) He made no charge against Hon.
Members opposite. Those gentlemen who had opposed the
measure before were bound still to do so.---(Loud cheers. )
He spoke only of those who had changed their course so sud-
denly. If he might be allowed to refer to the rumours which
had been about the town for the last two days, that a
proposal had been made to a Noble Lord to bring to his
assistance a certain number of Gentleman, who were most
anxious to divide with him, and that Noble Lord received the
proposition with a silence which might amount to what might
almoetbe called contempts.—( Cries of " Name, name."( Gen-
tlemen who wished for the names might look after the divsion
on the list, and they would see the names.—(Name, name.)
He had made no charge against any individual.—(Oh, oh.)
He was speaking of a party by their aets—(Great uproar).
and he did not know why he should be called upon to name
a particular individual.—( Uproar.) He could only add that
the Government would press the measure forward to its
second reading.—( Hear.) -He knew not whatihe
mightNehie beL Lord
de
whof at e
of the measure.—(Cheers and uproar.)
charged the Government with insincerity in bringing forward
the measure, knew little of the motives
men in the discharge of their duties—(which actuated public
" Oh, 011.")._
trusted that House would never and he
departure from that
honourable spirit in which the offices of a Government should be
conducted. He for one would always regret being placed in
the hands of a man who seems incapable of understanding that
public men have a higher than party object to maintain, and
who should be ready to sacrifice anything
ything in order to support
ppi
what they considered for the happiness,
of the country. peace, and prosperity
The Marquis of GRANBY considered that language had been
used upon the present occasion which upon a more mature con-
sideration' might not have been used. He thought it unfair
that they who had been so little used to speaking in that House
should be charged with using such language. They had de-
layed it for six weeks, and he did ask the House whether they
could suppose that there was any necessity for
passing this Bill,
which he did believe, when be voted for its first reading,
existed. They felt sure that the Government were in
earnest, that it was incumbent on them to pass the
measure, and that the blood of the murdered
victims in Ireland would be on their heads if they refused to
Pass it. But when the corn-law was allowed to pass through
the House instead of that more important measure, he became
convinced that there was no truth in its alleged 'necessity.
And they were now prepared to vote against it because they had
no longer confidence in her Majesty's Government. They
had but little when they first supported it; but that little was
rendered still less by the course which they had pursued with
reference to the Bill, and the course which they had pursued
with reference to the Poor-law Settlement Bill had diminished
that confidence in a greater degree,—(Rear, hear.) They had

--■
• been told thLt night that they had entered into some compact
with the Noble Lord who conducted the opposition, but he
believed that the ( nly compact which existed between them
was that they had no confidence in her Majesty's Govern-
ment.—( Cheers.)
Mr. ROSS moved the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL rose to put a question to the
Secretary ar. War. The Hon. Gentleman had used an ex-
pression towards an absent friend of his, which would denote
him as a person wishing the dismemberment of the• empire.
If that expression applied to the Honourable Member
for Limerick, it also applied to all those who shared
his opinion on the subject of the Legislative union,
and it was one which they must meet with the shortest
and fattest denial. It might appear ridiculous that they should
be sensitive on the point, but he could not allow any one to
impugn his loyalty, and, therefore, he for one could not suffer
the expression to pass without demanding, an explanation.
They did not wish the dismemberment of the empire, but on the
contrary, they wished to see Ireland placed in' a closer con-
nexion with England, upon a fair and legislative enactment.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN rose to ask in explanation,
which the Hon. Gentleman should consider not an un-
reasonable demand after what had passed. The Hon. Gen-
tleman had said, that there had been a proposition made
by Gentlemen below the gang-way, to the Noble Lord who
conducted the Opposition, which proposition had been treated
by him with something which it would be considered unparlia-
mentary to term contempt.—(Hear. hear.) If the Hon. Gen-
tleman had made the assertion in the heat of debate, he (Mr.
O'Brien) felt perfectly sure that he would be very glad to get
up and offer an explanation ; but if, on the contrary, he had
expressed it firmly and advisedly, he also felt certain that he
would have no hesitation in
naming the party. He did
not wish to add one word of bitterness, but he certainly
him to
teiema7ndoulada
n
explanation.
dd
part
of
widithfeethl
eirpeirnmciusmsiobuentofonthehi
Housethat correspondence, and if his Noble Friend had written
re
in a spirit of prophecy, he could not have made
it moreapi
-
plicable to the present circumstances. (The Hon. Member
here here read an extract from a letter of the 21st of
March,
which the Noble Lord stated that the measure was a curfew
and unconstitutional measure, and that no grounds whatever
existed for its adoption. ) From that letter it would be seen
that the cases firderis did not rest with the Noble Lord, and
he put it to the Noble Lord himself to state whether anything
had really occurred.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said that what he had alluded
to were rumours which had come to his knowledge through the
ordinary channels, but he did not refer to persons. He did not
assert of his own knowledge any of the facts. He made the
statement from rumour that certain communications had taken
place between Hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House and
the Noble Lord the Member for London. Ii there had been
any blame to the party in taking such a course, it was not for
proposing to take it, but for actually taking it.—( Oh.)
Mr. E. YORKE trusted that the House would not think

him out of order in making the present application. A
statement had been made that a certain application or overture
was made to the Noble Lord (Russell ). Now, he felt that if any
such application had been made, it must have been made by some
person.—(Laughter.) It was necessary, then, that the name
of the person who had made such a statement to the Right
Hon. Gentleman should be given.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that in answering the Hon. Gen-
tleman sitting on that bench (Mr. Stafford O'Brien) and the
other Hon. Member who had just sat down, he could state
that no such application was made to him by the Noble Lord
the Member for Lynne, nor by any other Hon. Member. The
Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland might have remembered
that on the first reading of this Bill he (Lord John Rus-
sell) had stated that he had an objection to that
portion of the Bill which confined parties to their
houses after certain hours in the evening. He stated
then, that though he would vote for the first reading of
the Bill he would reserve his opposition to another stage, and
tt
ihma ta
thee
friendswo u l do o pf po e
his
o wt hae
squestionked
hi on
cn (
Lordthe second
John
Russell) reading.
what-
his intentions were in respect to this Bill, and they also wished
him to state whether he had any objection to their stating to
those with whom they acted what his intentions were with re-
spect to the measure. Certainly he did not treat those friends with
any contemptuous silence, and he told them that he had stated
his intentions in the House on the first reading of the
( Hear, hear.) But he would not say that he had not stated
anything which he had not stated on a former occasion, and he
again repeated that no application was made to him for a coali-
tion from Hon. Members on the other side of the House.—
( Hear, hear.) He opposed it on public grounds, for it was a
Bill, in his opinion, which would be of great injury to life and
property, thus having the opposite effect to that which it was
intended.

Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT said that after what had fallen
from the Noble Lord, he had but to state to the House that
the rumour which he had beard was without foundation, and be
therefore begged to withdraw the statement he had made
founded on such grounds.
The debate was then adjourned.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir R. PEEL rose to move that on Thursday, the 18th of
June, orders of the day should have precedence over notices.
At the present period of the session a third day bad usually
been conceded to the transaction of public business, and he
begged leave, therefore, to move that on Thursday, the 18th
instant, and all succeeding Thursdays, orders of the day should
have precedence.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL objected to such a motion being
made at that moment, in so thin a House. If a greater num-
ber of Members were present he would enter upon the grounds
which induced him to think that the House ought not to enter-
tain the motion, but he should now move that the debate on
the motion be adjourned.
Mr. REDHEAD YORKE thought that the course pro-
posed br the Right Hon. Gentleman was the course which
had been usually adopted, and was also the natural course, and
therefore, if the House went to a division, he should vote with
her Majesty's Government.
Mr. FOX MAULE also declared his intention of support-
ing the proposition of her Majesty's Government. The motion
was usually made at this period of the session, and if it was
necessary in any session it was especially necessary in the pre-
sent, when from protracted debates the business of the country
was considerably in arrear.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said that if the Right Hon.
Gentleman would promise not to, use the Thursdays for
the purposes of the Coercion Bill he would withdraw his
motion, or even if the flight Honourable Gentleman would
promise that he would not use the Thursdays for the present
stage of the Bill, the second reading.
After a few words from Dr. Bowring, Mr. Borthwick, and
Mr. B. Hawes.

Sir ROBERT PEEL observed, that in bringing forward
this motion, which was a customary one at this period of the
session, he had acted, not through a desire to consult the con-
venience of any member of the Government, but merely from
a sense of publie duty and with a view to the facilitation of
the public business, which was still very much in arrear.
He must decline entering into any such stipulation as that
proposed by the Hon. and Learned Member for Kilkenny
respecting any particular order, but he assured the Hon.
Gentleman that in declining to do so nothing was more
remote from his intention than his desire to take any unfair
advantage with regard to the discussion on the Iri h Bill.—
( Hear, hear.) He brought forward this motion without any
special reference whatever to the Irish Protection Bill, and
would have brought it forward though that measure had
never been introduced.—( Hear, hear.)
After some further discussion,
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL, in deference to the feeling o
of the House, withdrew his motion.
The original resolution was then agreed to.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of awl the
House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock.