The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-07 00:00:00

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"Thofe
tors, had important interests to pro
individuals were not to be
scheme which was imperfect through a feeling of
Mr. KNOWLES, who as the representetcatti.
sacrificed to a
Mr. Hudson.
jealousy towards
maintained that the interests of private
Mr. ALEXANDER next addressed the Committee on behalf of Mr.
Fountain Wilson, in a similar strain to that of the Learned Counsel
who had preceded him.
Mr. Sergeant WILKINS opposed the objection raised by Mr. Hildyard.
and adeed that if the admission of Mr. Hlldyard were accepted, all
three of the lines must be thrown overboard, but he was prepared to
prove, in direct contradiction of Mr. Hildyard's admission pro arva-
mento, that the Leeds and York line was the best of the three, he
was prepared to prove that it was the worst of the three, and he had
two many dealings with the emissaries of the Great King to be taken
in by such a ruse.
Mr. BAINES was sure the Committee would not be influenced by
the threats of prolonged cress-examination, which had been thrown
out by his Learned Friend (Mr. Alexander), and argued that if he
shewed his line was an integral line, and involved such a degree of
public accommodation as to outweigh the objections of his competi-
tors or of the landowners, the Committee were bound to allow him
to proceed with his bill.
Mr. HILDTARD contended that the point at issue for the decision of
the Committee was whether parties applying for powers to construct
a railway were bound to show that their line was merely a good one
or whether they were not compelled to prove that it was the best
that could be constructed. The Learned Gentleman further ex-
plained, by denying that he had, de facto, admitted the superiority of
the Leeds and York line over the North Midland.
The Committee deferred their decision till to-morrow, and ad-
journed at a quarter past four o'clock.

1,200,000 quarters, and the quantity of flour was about
700,000 or 800,000 barrels. He had also to move for a return
of every hundred pounds' worth of tithe received under the
Tithe Commutation Act, from the passing of that Act down
to 1845. He hoped there would be no objection to such a
motion.

TAXATION OP SUITORS.

Mr. WATSON moved for a Select Committee to inquire
into the nature and extent of the taxation of suitors by the col-
lection of fees in the courts of law and equity, and the applica-
tion of such fees, and the compensations paid to retired officers
of those courts, and into the propriety of the continuance
thereof ; and particularly to inquire into the orders for com-
pensation made by the Lord Chancellor to the persons filling
th• offices of clerk of the enrolment, comptrollers of hamper,
riding clerk, six clerks, sworn clerks, waiting clerks, and
others, under the Act 5 and 6 Vic. c. 183, and to inquire into
the nature, duties, and emoluments of those officers, before
the passing of that Act, and their right to compensation dur-
ing life and for seven years after the death of such person.
In making this motion, he said he did so in consideration of
the manner in which suitors in the courts of justice
were so enormously taxed, and in which the most
outrageous compromises often took place. Now, contrary
to every principle of justice,lthere was no suitor in the Court
of Chancery and no suitor in any other of the Courts who was
not, subjected to very heavy taxation. There were no lets
than from 300 to 400 persons who were employed in collecting
fees in the Courts of Equity. Some of these fees Went to the
consolidation fund and some to the officers in the
Courts, but no step whatever could be taken unless
the fees were paid, and it was impossible to
obtain redress otherwise. The House would be surprised also
to learn that there was no check or control, or scarcely any,
over the collectors. Some of them were certainly bound by
oath, but there were others who were not. A great many
officers were paid by fees only, and the only guarantee with re-
gard to the collectors of these fees was the honesty of the
persons. What he asked for, therefore, was a Committee to in-
quire into this system, which he considered a most objectionable
one. The next point he wished to call attention to was, whether it
was right to tax suitors at all. There might be no fear enter-
tained that by the abolition of these taxes law would become

Lord BROUGHAM entirely concurred with his Noble
Friend, and differing from him as he did on other matters,
he rejoiced to be able to agree with him on this.—( Laughter.)
He was undoubtedly of opinion that the result of the measure
that would shortly come before their Lordships, would have
the effect of lowering the price of grain, inasmuch a much
greater quantity of grain would be introduced into the English
market. He had no desire, however, to anticipate the dissen-
sion that would arise on that measure, and he would, there-
fore, postpone any arguments which he had on the ques-
tion till the proper time arrived. He would at the same
time express a hope that their Lordships who were
appointed to inquire into the burdens on land, would lose no
time in laying their report before their Lordships, believing,
as he did, that a more important report had never been laid on
the table of their Lordships' House.
Earl FITZWIL LIAM thought it would be desirable for
their Lordships to have a statement similar to that which was
asked for by the Noble Lord (Lord Ashburton), of the corres-
ponding periods, as far back as the time when the last Corn
Bill but one (1628) passed, and he should move an amendment
to that effect.

GROUP XLIII.
EAST AND WEST YORKSHIRE.

Lord ASHBURTON said that in the last year the quantity
in bond was 430,000 quarters ; the year before that 220,000 ;
the year before that 245,000; then 124,000; then 132,000;
then 257,000; and so on up to the year 1838.
Lord BROUGHAM suggested that it should be ascertained
whether corn was at such a price as to be importable the time
these returns were made.

The Committee on this Bill met again to-day at twelve o'clock, in
Room 33, Mr. W. Miles, Chairman.
Mr. Grainger, engineer to the Company, was called and examined
by Mr. BAINES, Q.C. The line was easy of construction,
the cuttings being very light and gradient and most favourable. The
estimate for making the line was 20,0001. He was satisfied that the
line could be constructed for that amount. After some further evi-
dence the witness was cross-examined

Lord A SHBURTON said that the returns were from the
months of October and December in each year, when the
farmer held most of his corn in hand, and at that season tarn
was exported from abroad for this country. The corn dealers
on the Baltic found all the ports between their country and
ours shut against them, and consequently their supplies came
to the British ports.
'Earl FITZ WILLIAM said there never was so great a quan-
tity in bond as at the present moment. It is now better than
four months since this measure was first introduced into
Parliament, and he would leave it to their Lordships whether
the real nature of the measure had not been well known before
two months before that time ; so that there was a period of six
months since this measure was first brought under the notice of
the public, during which time no merchant in his senses would
take a single quarter out of bond.
The Duke of RICHMOND wished to correct his Noble
Friend the Earl Fitzwilliam in one point. It was well known
that the British farmer never brought his corn to market until
it was in the best condition. Now, it was also known that
English corn required some time to be laid up, and the
influence of frost, to bring it into condition. The late
season had beers unusually mild, and there was, in con-
sequence, never a greater growth of corn in the hands
of the farmer, than there is at the present moment. It was
always kept up in the hope of obtaining better
prices, and there was in fact at this particular
time, a great quantity of grain waiting for disposal.
He did not think the Bill would pass, but if it did pass, he
would do all he could to protect those farmers who had large
stocks of wheat on hand. He must protest against those No-
ble Lords who said that the question was settled. He did not
think so. He could not believe that Noble Lords on the oppo-
site side could so suddenly turn round, or that those on the
other side, who had advocated a fixed duty, would now give it
up in favour of the Bill before the other House.

By Mr. Bniss—Had the line gone further north before coming
towards Knaresborough, he did not think they could have avoided
Knaresborough without great inconvenience. Could not tell how
many houses they would pull down at Knaresborough. He had not
taken any account of the property which would be required, that
was not part of his duty as engineer. By avoiding Knaresborough
the length of the line would be very much increased.
After a lengtheued cross-examination of this witness, the Commit-
tee adjourhed to twelve o'clock to-morrow.

too cheap, for in this country there was very little chance of
that. In the year 1843 to 1844 the fund called the Suitors'
Fee Fund amounted to 97,0001. There was also a sum of
money amounting to 155,000!., which was paid in taxes into
the Court of Chancery. Altogether there was from 300,0001.
to 400,0001. paid in salaries to officers connected with
the court, and a sum of 290,0001., which went to the Conso-
lidated Fund, amounting altogether to upwards of 600,0001.,
400,000/. of which was a direct tax upon the suitors,
and the rest a tax upon the country at large.
This was a monstrous sum, but what was still more monstrous,
it was collected by persons over whom there was no check, and
he asked the House for a Committee, to consider whether this
principle ought not to be discontinued.—( Hear, hear.) There
was one individual in the Court of Queen's Bench who held a
sinecure of 7,7001. a year, another who held a sinecure of
5,496/. a year; and there were numerous others, varying
from that sum to 2,000/. a year. In the Lancaster Court
there was formerly a, sinecure of some 2,0001. a year. The
office was that of the prothonotary ; and it nas held by one
individual from 1791 up to a very recent period. It was, how-
ever, abolished, and although the fees collected were only
2,3001. per annum at the time it was abolished, a compensation
of 2,700/. per annum was awarded to the sinecurist, who was no
less a person than Lord Liverpool. What was more to be la-
mented was, that it was a poll-tax, and no matter whether a
man sued for 20,0001. or 2,00/. he had to pay the same fees.
The Bill was to give compensaion to the six clerks of the
Court of Chancery, who had long been considered a public
nuisance ; they received enormous fees, but they were per-
fectly useless, and coingensatson was given to them for
absolutely doing nothing. They were old officers to be sure,
and some of them were in the receipt of between three
and four hundred a-year. He was assured, the House would
hardly believe him, when he stated that four of these persons
were enjoying amongst them the enormous amount of 30,0001.
a-year.--( Hear, hear.) What could then be the meaning of
giving such extravagant compensation? Their business
depended Solely upon eonnexten, but that connexion
was like an attorney's, it might not last five
days; and it might last for ever; but the business transacted
was not worth six days' purchase. The country had a right
to enquire and see how the funds were distributed, and whether
the public money was to be wasted in such an extravagant man-
ner as he had detailed to the House. He would quote to the
House an authority upon this subject which he was sure would
have weight with the House, he would quote Mr. Pemberton
Leigh, who after vainly, for a length of time, endeavoured to
get a return from these gentlemen of their emoluments, they
having refused them for a length of time, had at last given
some lump sums without stating name, or time, or place.
Mr. Pemberton Leigh designated the fees which these
officers received as an iniquitous tax upon the• suitors in
Chancery. One gentleman, who was eminent in the Court of
Chancery, had said that when he was doubtful upon a point of
the practice of the Court, he applied to the sworn clerks, and
acted directly the reverse of their advice. One gentleman, in
his evidence before the commission, had stated that the fees to
the sworn clerks were a great tax upon the suitors and Chan-
cery, and the services of the clerks were useless, In fact, one
of the officers was a good clerk when he was a lunatic.
He would now call the attention of the House to what was
called the compensation clause—a clause by which the Lord
Chancellor was enabled to award compensation to officers in
certain cases. At the time of Lord Erskine he had found the
fees of those officers so low that he increased them ; but in 1829
the fees of those officers bad so enormously increased, that they
were entitled to fees on every item on the paper; and
Lord Brougham had seen the enormity of these fees to be an
glaring in the year 1833 that he told them their days were
numbered ; but they 'still remained the same to the present
time. One of, those clerks who had been dismissed received
5,4241., and 2,000/. a-year for attending for a few hours
each day in Chancery-lane. Another, who retired, was a
clerk to a clerk, and he got 472/. a year; and a third,
a young gentleman, only 28 years of age, received fees to the
amount of 5,204/. per annum, besidss •a salary of 2,000/., mak-
ing a total of 7,204'. per annum. Again, there was an agent
who received for compensation alone 1,7781. per annum ; a
waiting clerk received a compensation to the extent of 344/. per
annum ; in fact, altogether the compensations amounted to no
less than 170,000/. annually. The Lord Chief Justice of England
the highest dignatary of the law, received under 10,0001. per an-
num, and the Noble individual who now held the office refused
to receive the whole salary, and only took 8.0001., and yet
there were persons, without holding any office, receiving
7,000/. The First Lord of the Treasury had, on a late occasion,
given to two gallant officers who had distinguished themselves
in the service of their country, pensions of 2,000/. and 3,0001.
while persons persons who had done nothing ror it were
receiving the large salaries he had mentioned. The House
ought to come to some resolution, which would submit this
matter to the consideration of a Committee.—(Hear, hear. )
It was the brightest morning that ever dawned in Chancery.
lane, and to all the clerks in a certain law institution there,
for all the flesh and blood, and every human being therein, re-
ceived a good compensation; and even some of the clerks were
to have one-half of their compensation paid to their friends ofr
years after their death, no doubt in consequence of the loss of
the influence and services of these gentlemen to the country
The sale of these office., therefore, was wholly ills gal, and.
tee persons who held them were not entitled to receive any com-
pensation. No Bill ever travelled with the same railroad velo-
city as the Bill in question did through that House. It came
down from the Lords on the 29th of July, and was read a first
time. On the Monday following—the Ist of August,
it was read a second time. On the 2d of August
it went through Committee, and on the 3d of
August it was reported and ordered to be re-committed.
The 9th of August, 1842, was a lucky day for the riding clerk,
the waiting clerk, and the agents of the House of Commons,
for on that day their Compensation Bill passed; and how, let
him ask, was this compensation to be calculated? Why, it
was calculated up the produce of the three year during which
there was the most extraordinary amount of business trans-
acted in the Court of Chancery, and when the equity business
of the Exchequer bad been transferred to the Court of Chancery.
The compensation which should be given, according to the
Acts he has cited, was to be only two-thirds of their former
receipts. The examiner was also to inquire into those re-
ceipts. Now he asserted no inquiry had taken place, and how
was this compensation, extravagant as it was, obtained? It
was levied from the suitors of the Court of Chincery.
from those who had the misfortun,e to appear there, in order to
have justice done them. Why, it was monstrous.--( Hear,
bear.) Four per cent. was laid upon a Bill without
reference to the amount of the property sought to be
obtained ; after years of anxious and dreary litigation, four
per cent. was laid upon the costs of that cause before
they were bound to pay a shilling. When he first
brought forward his motion, a reduction of twopence
a fo*io took place, which, trivial as it Ippelf,:i)rneed
oto
be, amounted to '5,000/, out of every 70,000
1, bad since been taken off, which also amounted
to one thousand in every severy seven pounds. —( Hear, hear.)
He asked for a Committee to inquire into those matters.
He asked the Government to grant that Committee
and if he was asked was he ready to be unjust to these indi-
viduals? he would say he was ready to be so, sooner than to
be unjust to hundreds and thousands who would be suiters
in the Court of Chancery. He wished that this Com
mittee would be granted in order to investigate the matter."
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, in answer to the state.
ments of the Hon. Member who had just sat down, said his
Hon. and Learned Friend had had a great advantage over
him, because he was the assaulting party; and there was
always something exciting in hearing a party making a charge,
while the arguments of the party in defence generally fell
upon dull ears. He (the Attorney-General) could not
hope to make what he had to say in answer
to the charges of his Honourable and Learned
Friend at all interesting as it appliedlto matters of dry law, not
by any means interesting ; but still he would make a demand
on the time of the Honae, but he trusted he would be heard with
patiecee. His Hon. and Learned Friend proposed a Committee
on the very same materials upon which the same motion was
refused by the House in 1844. Now he (the Attorney-
General) would say that his Hon. and Learned Friend
called upon the House to do an act of gross injustice.
It would be very easy to lead the House to the conclusion that
the compensation awarded to those holding those offices was
enormous, in order to excite in Hon. Members the notion that
the motion which the Hon. Member for Kinsale proposed
to make, was well founded, and ought to be
granted. at once took the Hon. Member on that ground, and said
that the question was not whether the existing emoluments
for these offices were or were not abuses. It was
perfectly unnatural, whether the emolument derivesd. from those
ho
offices was in proportion to the services rendered by those wh
o
possessed them. Those offices had been established a great
numbers ; they were vested interests, and if they desired to re-
form them, they were bound to give the possessors the fullest
compensation. His Hon. and Learned Friend would not
consider it any disparagement if he considered that the opi-
nions of a better reformer were against him on this subject,
In 1812 a motion was made in that House respecting the sine-
cure offices of tellers of the Exchequer. The abject of the
motion• was to call the attention of the House to the
enormous emoluments which were derived . for services
performed by deputy; and what did Mr. Horner say on
that occasion ? He gave it as his decided opinion that
in such cases the offices were vested interests, and however far
economy was stretched, vested interests were always sacred,
and therefore these offices should remain untouched.
In those sentiments Mr. Tierney and Mr. Ponsonby clearly
concurred, and the motion for the reduction of the enormous
emoluments in the Sinecure Offices were rejected. Now. he
(the Attorney-General) was willing to call for the
same principle to be applied to this question. The
offices of these clerks were established in 1592,
and there had been no diminution in the
fees from the year 1743 down to the time of the abolition of
the offices. It had been said that Lord Lyndhurst had reduced
the fees before they abolished the fees. That was not so. All
Lord Lyndhorst'did, was to preveio the sworn clerks receiving
attendance fees in cases where no attendance was required.
(LEFT SITTING.)

Lord 13ROUGHAIM did not think the question settled, but
whether settled or not, he would give a little advice. He
would strongly advise those who had large stocks on hand to
bring their wheat to market as if it was settled.—(A laugh.)
Earl GREY differed with the Noble Duke. He believed
that the farmers were suffering greatly through this delay.
They would be exposed to this deluge of foreign corn, for the
importation having been dammed up for six months, instead of
the market receiving gradual supplies. 'I he suffering of the
farmers had arisen from the want of foreign wheat to mix up
with the produce of last harvest, which was generally of
an inferior quality. It could not be ground unless
mixed up with old or foreign wheat, and the state of things
had been such that the necessary supply of foreign wheat was
nut forthcoming. In the north of England the wheat of last
harvest was generally inferior in quality, and millers were pre-
vented from grinding it from want of foreign wheat. It would
have been a great advantage to the country if the ports had
been opened in November or December last.
Lord BEAUMONT was anxious tkat there should be no
delay in producing those returns. He hoped next week to be
able to lay on their Lordships' table the report of the Com-
mittee of which he was Chairman. At the same time he hoped
that whatever might be the result of that measure the labours
of the Committee would not be altogether lost.
The motion was then agreed to.
RELIGIOUS OPINIONS' BILL.

The Bishop of EXETER—Consented to postpone the mo-
tion of which he had given notice for to-day, until Monday
next.

MR. REID'S VENTILATION.
The Marquis of CLANRICADE wished to know whether
there would be any impediment in the way of allowing Mr.
Gurney, to have some part of the n .w houses appropriated to
him, for the purposes of ventilation, that their Lordships might
be able to judge of the plan proposed. The Commissioners
had not yet made ther report upon this subject.
Lord CAMPBELL complained of the serious annoyance
caused to their Lordships by Dr. Reid's system of ventilation ;
that annoyance became worse and worse every day. When he
entered their Lordships' House that morning he could scarcely
breathe the air, and he only wished that Dr. Reid might him-
self be compelled lo breathe it for two hours. Thus he (Lord
Campbell) knew that it was utterly impossible for that

LORDS' SUMMARY.
The Lords met at Five o'clock.

Lord Astinutrrox moved for returns relating to the im-
portation of foreign corn, which gave rise to a slight dis-
cussion, in the course of which the Duke of RICHMOND pro-
tested against the corn-law question being considered as
settled, and was replied to by Lord BROUGHAM, who admitted
that the question was not yet settled, but advised the farmers
friends to recommend the farmers' friends to act as if the
question were settled. After which the returns were agreed
to.

The Bishop of EXETER postponed his motion on the sub-
ject of the Religious Opinions Bill until Monday.
Lord STANLEY then moved the second reading of the
Western Australian Bill.

Earl GREY regretted that the Bill should have been
brought forward, and felt bound to oppose it.

Lord LrrrLEToN supported the Bill.

The Duke of RICHMOND give notice that he would move
for a select committee to inquire into the affairs of the
Australian colonies, unless the Government brought forward
some measure to remedy the present dreadful state of affairs
In these colonies.

Lord LITTLETow said that the matter was at present under
the consideration of the Government.
The Bill was then read a second time.
=The Railway Deposits Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The Friendly Societies Bill was read a first time, and or-
dered to be read a second time on Monday.
Lord REDESDALE moved that no select committee should
be appointed to consider an opposed railway Bill after Mon-
day, the 20th of July.
The Earl of Wici(Low opposed the motion.
The motion was then agreed to.
(uurr arrnwa.)

THE MYsTNRIOUS DEATH AT
BROMLEY.—(THIS DAY.)

The CORONER, in continuation from our Afternoon Edition, said—
There was nothing in the evidence to justify them in coming to a po-
sitive conclusion with respect to any one person, and he would,
therefore, having fully recapitulated the evidence, leave the matter
in the hands of the jury. . .

strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and on their ro-admission
The Com)Ns& announced that the verdict of the jury was " Wilful
murder" against some person or persons unknown.
After a few words from Mr. Hodges (one of the jurymen) the jury
was discharged.

MALE AND FEMALE CONVICTS.—Tbere are at pre-
sent three hired convict ships, moored off the Royal Arsenal, Wool.
wick, embarking male and female convicts for Sydney, Ilobart Town,
and Norfolk Island. The Woolwich Company's steam-packet Fairy
brought down Op Saturday last 75 female convicts, and the Naiad 98
on Monday, being a total of 173, aad embarked theta in the li
clam n convict ship, for Sydney. The John Calvin, for Rom
t. ; Maitland, for Norfolk Island, hay, not .
DS 11111 411414111 :11,19 TI M% •
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