The Sun.
London, England, 1848-03-21 00:00:00

It now rested with the House of Commons to decide

wht.ther they would be willing, upon the proposition of
his lion. Friend behind him—whatever that proposition
might be—to cripple the resources of the country, to
undo all that had been done during the last ten year.,
and to break up a system which had been created and

oa•ried out with so much labour and at so much expense;
or whether they would sanction the continuance of that
system, and ♦ote for the maintenance of these establish-

ments in a state worthy of the country ? Some singular
observations had been put forth lately as to the services
of our naval officers on the different stations. An Hon.
Gentleman appeared to imagine that the life of the
English naval officer on a foreign station was a constant
scene of pleasure and repose. Let the Hon. Gentle-
man, however, only look at the papers containing
the account of our navy on those stations, and consider
the plain truth of the case, and the facts would soon lose
the colouring with which the poetical imagination of
the Honourable Gentleman had invested it. He would
soon find that there was some work for the servants of
a great maritime power like this, and that they had a •
little more to do than cultivating those passing en-
joyments to which he had referred. Let the Honourable
Gentleman ask the inhabitants of Palermo, or of Mes-
sina, or any other of those ports on the continent where

British ships had lately been engaged in protecting
their countrymen, whether they thought that a fleet in
the Mediterranean was useless. If ever the naval power
had been wisely, and economically, and usefully ad.
ministered, it had been by Sir William Parker.—
(Hear, hear.) The squadron in the Pacific, consist-
ing of 12 ships, and 3,495 men, had operated in the
midst of the disturbances in Spanish America to the
protection of British merchants there. In the midst of
such scenes, when were the British officers and men
to find time for those luxuries of which the Honourable
Member spoke? Look at the East Indies. A fleet had
been stationed there to protect our commerce; thus the
whole of the East Indian Archipelago had been cleared
from pirates, and a part of the same fleet had aided in
the protection of our colonies in New Zealand. Thai
squadron had been distinguished for acts of daring gal-
lantry, and it had discharged in a most exemplary man-
ner the arduous duties entrusted to it.—(Hear, hear.)
As to the fleet in the Tagus, which had been made the
subject of some pointed remarks by the Hon. Gentle-
man, he (Mr. Ward) would ♦enture to say that under
Sir Charles Napier that squadron had been among
the best naval schools that England had ever produced.
—(bear, hear.) There had never been a commander•
in-chief of more indefatigable spirit, who had exerted
himself more to render those under his orders
perfectly efficient in every branch of their calling,
or who could place a finer and more able fleet
before an enemy.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Ward) was
sensible that he had developed these matters to the Hours
very imperfectly, but it would be for them now to decide
whether they would give way to the economical sugges-
tions, and act without regard either to the past or the
future, but with reference to the present hour alone. For
his own part he believed that those very constituencies
who had been loudest in demanding economy would be
the first to reprehend their representatives for abandon-
ing that system under which the establishments had been
raised to their present state of efficiency.—(Hear, hear.)
He, for one, would sooner abandon his position than
consent to forego these great results the moment they
were obtained.—(Hear.) Now members, new to that
House, and new to the subject of the outlay necessary
for this great arm of our strength, might argue for re-
trenchment, but he confessed he had been astounded al
the language held upon this subject from some Mem-
bers of older experience, and at the policy they ,bad
commended.—(hear, hear.) It appeared to him it would
be the height of impolicy to forego the results of the
policy of the last ten years. England had now a posi-
tion which was the best, and only practical security for
the peace of the world—the power to defend herself
against aggression, let it come frota whatever quarter it
might. He recommended Hon. Members, however
reducing these economical views might be, to pause
before they resolved upon ♦oting with the Hon. Member
to cripple those resources which had lately been created.
He relied upon their judgment with perfect confidence
when the matter was fairly brought to the test, and he
should fearlessly abide the result.

The .CHAIINAN was about to put the question,
" That a sum not exceeding 593,0001. be granted," when
he was interrupted by

Mr. HUME, who objected to the question being put.
It had been understood that no money was to be ♦oted
until the Committee had reported. He had no abjection
to a vote being taken for the number of men, in order
that the Government might bring in the Mutiny Bill,
but he did object to voting money, as it would be, in
fact, a breach of faith.

Mr. WARD said that he did not propose to take
more than that vote on account, but he did not know
of any other way in which the number of men could be
brought before the Committee than by voting a part of
the BUM required. The number of men was a question
of prerogative.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that in the case of the navy there was no distinct and
separate vote for the number of men, while in the case of
the army the first vote in the estimates was for the num-
ber, and the way proposed was the only ono that could
be adopted.
Mr. lIUME wanted to know, then, how he was to
effect his objeet of reduction I' He did not care about
the form.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER--Th•
usual form was to move for a reduction in the amount of
money.

Mr: GLADSTONE said, that the lion. Gentleman
had treated this as a question of prerogative, inferring
that all that the House of Commons had to do was to
vote the money, without reference to the number of men.
But how did that apply in the case of the army, when,
as the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
said, the practice was to vote the number of men as well
as the money ? He found in the journals of the last
year, 1847, page 181, that Mr. Greene reported that
the Committee of Supply had passed several resolutions,
the first being that a sum not exceeding 185,0001. be
granted to defray the expenses, &e.; and the second re-
solution being that 31,500 men be employed in the sea
service for 13 lunar months, to the 81st day of March,
1848; and the third resolution being that a sum not
exceeding 1,323,0001. be granted for wages of seamen.
If this were a specimen of the practice of the House, it
appeared that there had been a separate resolution for
the number of men, and that it had been submitted to
the House before the vote for the wages of those sea-
men. Some explanation should be given of this, for it
appeared but reasonable that the House should have the
opportunity of discussing the number of men as well AS
the amount of money to be ♦oted.
Sir J. GRAHAM. had not had time since the speech
of the Hon. Gentleman to refer to the estimates of
former years in the library, but, unless his memory
failed, the practice had been that before the vote which
the Chairman had been about to put with respect to the
means of paying the officers and men, there had always
been an enumeration of the number of seamen, boys,
and marines to be voted, signed by the responsible ad-
visers of the Crown.-- (Hear, hear.) He was surprised
when he saw that the usual form had been deviated
from in the estimates for the present year, and that the
number of men required had been only printed in ♦ery
small letters. Mr. Bernal would, no doubt, be able to
inform the Committee whether the estimates were not
this year printed in a form different to that of preceding
years.

- Mr. HUME said he wanted to raise the question of
she number of men, because the expenses of other
departments depended upon it, and it was useless to
inquire into those details if the Committee upstairs
were precluded from entering upon the question of the
number of men. He begged to suggest that the num-
ber of men be first taken, in conformity with all pre.
ceding practice.
After a few words frinn Mr. CORRY,
Mr. WARD (who then handed a vote to the chairman
with reference to the number of mei) said that the mis-
take had originated entirely in an error on his part.
He had prepared the proper resolution, but, by an over-
sight, the wrong one had bees first proposed.
The Earl of LINCOLN hoped the Secretary to the
Admiralty and the Chancellor of the Exchequer wouli
now withdraw the novel doctrine they had promulgated,
that the rumber of men was determined by the preroga-
tive of the Crown.—(Laughter.)
Mr. WARD—Oh yes, was quite wrong.
Mr. DISRAELI—Then what became of the ingenious
argement of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, which, no doubt, had had such an
effect upon the House?—(Renewed laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—His Right Hon. Friend was
quite right in saying that there was a declaration every
year in the Queen's Privy Council of the Crown having
decreed a certain number of men for the navy. This
was not the custom with the army estimates; and, in
the case of the navy, of course a subsequent alteration
might he made by the House. But, so far, the Crown
possessed a prerogative, and, so far, the explanation of
his Right Hon. Friend had been correct.
Sir J. GRAHAM—The Queen in Council certainly
did so decree; but, in consequence of that declaration,
them had always been set forth, in the first vote of the
House, under the name of the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty and of the Board ,of Admiralty, the responsible
advisers of *Ne Crown, the precise number of men pro-
posed by the Government for the service; ar.d it was
always then open to any Member of the House to
suggest any reduction which might be thought ex-
pedient.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—It
was quite true that the first vote put into the hands of
the chairman related to the number of men, but this
never appeared, as the Right Hon. Baronet seemed to
suppose, in the estimates. The Right Hon. Baronet
was under a misapprehension in supposing that any
document bearing the signature of the First Lord of the
Admiralty was ever laid on the table of the House gat-

ing the number of men to be proposed.
Sir J. GRAHAM—The first vote, he contended, was
signed by the members of the Board of Admiralty; the
vote now in the hands of the chairman was signed.
The CtIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER--The
vote was so signed, but there was no estimate of the
number of men which was signed.
Sir J. GRAHAM—Perhaps Mr. Bernal would tell
the House what the vote now was.
The CHAIRMAN—The vote was a substantive vote
of 43,000 men, to be employed for the sea service,
Mr. HUME observed that that was as it should be,
for mistakes were made in the best regulated families.
--(A laugh.) He felt it extremely difficult to grapple
with his Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty,
for he gloried in the expenditure for the past years, and
said that the service required it. Now he knew of no
state of things which demanded such an expenditure.
Great events no doubt took place in France, and greater
changes were taking place in Germany, but they would
not affect them. All they cared for was the United
States and France; but America, he believed, was net
disposed for war, and as for France, a house, as they
were, divided against itself, was not likely to become a
dangerous foe. Now, what had occurred in France?