The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-18 00:00:00

no means deserves to be left out of view or considerativn
It is a state in which we may, in various cafes, have
political interests to connect us, and it is a state in con-
nexion with which we have at all times commercial in-
terests closely concerned. Our 'commercial intercourse
with Rome, though not to be compared in extent t(
what it was with many other countries, is nevertheless
annually growing and steadily increasing; and at pre-
sent the Sovereign of these realms cannot enter into any
commercial engagements or treaties with the Soyereigi,
of Rome, in order to afford our commerce with the Ro-
man States those securities arising from commercial
treaties which it enjoys in almost every other countr)
in the world. We have a great interest in accelerat-
ing the communication with our East Indian posses-
sions. That communication is daily becoming more and
more abridged by the introduction of railways into die
feeent parts of the continent of Europe. Now, we can-
not make use of a railway passing through the territory
of another state without some arrangement being entered
into by treaty, with regard to the transit of our main
through that country. There is at present no railway
communication established for that purpose in Italy; but
we have no reason to doubt but that, sooner or later,
there will be a vast:chain of railways formed, running
from the very extremity of Italy, and connecting it with
the Rhine, Germany, or Franco; and in that case our
mails will very likely pass through the Roman States.
Now, under the present state of the law, the necessary
arrangements for this purpose could not be effected, be-
cause we could not conclude with the Roman states any
convention legalising the transit of the English mails
through their territories. Sir, for these reasons, then,
briefly stated, I am at a loss to see any valid ground
neon which, in the present state of public opinion in
Europe, it can possibly be contended that any constitu-
tional-objection fairly applies to this measure, or that
any real danger is likely to arise from it; and because,
on the other hand, I hold that the existing impossbility
of conducting political relations with the Roman Go-
vernment is now attended, and likely in future years to
be still more attended, with injury and disadvantage to
the commercial and other interests of this country, I
move, Sir, the second reading of this
Mr. ANSTEY said he was much surprised at the
.course pursued by the Noble Lord with relation to this
Bill. He thought he would have alluded to the circum-
stances which led to this appeal to the Legislature, and
that he would have applied his attention to the conscien-
tious objections entertained against the Bill by Protest-
ants and Catholics. He, however, left all these matters
in the dark. He, therefore, would direct his remarks to
the speeches which had been delivered in another place.
The title of this Bill was " to enable her Majesty to
maintain and establish the diplomatic relations with the
Court of Rome." It was clear, then, that the object of
the Bill was to effect a change in the law, and not merely
to explain doubts. The next point to consider, what
was meant by the " Court of Rome?" Now, there were
two Cburts at Rome, the spiritual and the temporal. With
which of these was the object of the Bill to enter into
diplomatic relations? Doubts existed as to whether it
Wtss lewful to :enter into diplomatic relations with the
Sovereign Pontiff. That really was the matter in
question ; and yet there was no doubt that this could
not be maintained. He would reconcile this apparent
paradox. This Bill, fur the purposes referred to by
the Noble Lord, was not necessary. They could
do all that the Noble Lord contemplated to do under
the law as it stood at present. For political purposes
they could dispatch an agent, as they had recently done
in the case of Lord Minto, but if it was intended to place
the Government in a position to explain to the Court of
Rome the nature of its transactions within these realms,
that could not now be done by law, and, he hoped it
- never would. That was the real secret of the Bill. That
was the thing which could not be done. Upon an inter-
course upon political matters, neither the municipal law
nor the law of nations interposed any obstacle. The Bill
further provided that notwithstanding any laws now in
force, it should be lawful for her Majesty to enter into
diplomatic relations with " the Court of Rome." He
would ask, why in this case the ordinary courtesy should
be departed from, and that the title applied to the
Sovereign of that State by all civilised nations should be
Omitted—a title which, on the occasion of presenting a
degree to the Chevalier Bunsen, by the University of
Oxford, he had himself applied to him by that illus-
trious University, when, in allusion to his mission to
Rome, it was described " ad Ponifican dissordias corn-
. Ponere." This was not an unimportant objection, as it
was some value that in the course of all communications
that courtesy should be observed. The Bill referred
to Acts now in force, forbidding intercourse with Rome.
No Act of Parliamenwhich touches the prerogatives of the
Crown in matter of wars and peace would be affected. But
there were other Acts upon other matters which would
be repealed by this Bill. These communications with
the see of Rome had ceased since the year 1687, except
in-the case of the mission of Lord Castlemain. Lord
Clarendon bad openly stated the intercourse which had
taken place upon the subject of the Irish colleges. There
had been communications with Rome on the occasion of
the treaty of Vienna, also, between Lord Hood and the
apel Government. In the reign of Queen Anne, they
4180 occurred, and further on the occasion of conferring a
pension on the Pretender, as he was termed, Cardinal
York. The breaking off relations with Rome was fol-
lowed by the enactment of the penal code. These were
repealed, but they stopped short of repealing those laws,
Which interdicted communications with the see of Rome.
The 13th of Elizabeth interdicted the reception of the
ordinances of the Pontiff within these realms. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman cited several other Acts of Par-
liament, under which communication between the'Court
of Hemp and this country was unlawful, except in certain
eases, and it
_was those Acts which the Bill under come-
' deration sought to repeal. It was the intention of the
Ministers, if they could, to get into their hands the
Papal, as they have the monarchical power, and to use
- either for the purpose of governing or misgoverning
Ireland ; in other words,_ those remarkable words used
by Lord Lansdowne—" They wished to lay open to
themselves the peculiar influence possessed by the Court
of Rome." Now, see the effect of this arrangement.
The Sovereign Pontiff possessed unlimited power over all
the Catholic priests in England and Scotland. In Ire-
land he was without so much prerogative, and that
Which was left was affected by common law. It was
this uncontrolled power and prerogative that the British
Government now sought to obtain—to be exercised,
' perhaps, for their own purposes on the occasion of elec-
tions, or for the maintenance of political influence in
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) At the present moment the
Pope was a perfectly free agent, but if this Bill
Passed, the Sovereign Pontiff would be bound to
wept any message or commission coming through
the British Ambassador, from the Court of Rome,
• relative to the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland,
for the purpose, at least, of discussion and
•eonsideration, if not of adhesion; another objec-
• tion to the Bill consisted in the fact, that on the lace
of the statute-book there were laws against some reli-
gious orders of the Church of Rome, which declared
them outlaiss, and prohibited with them communication;
yet it was known that the Sovereign Pontiff would con-
tinue to communicate with and acknowledge thew. This
• in itself was calculated to warrant the strongest opposi-
tion to the measure. The lion. Member concluded by
• moving, as an amendment, that the Bill be read a second
lime that day six months.
Mr. URQUHART, after commenting on the circum-
stance of the delay which had attended the introduction
of this measure into that House, and upon the haste with
which the Government were passing their measures
through Parliament, proceeded to observe that he
' thought there must be some very extraordinary reason
for their determination of passing the present one. The
Ron. Member for Youghal had hinted at that reason,
and he thought that he had done so with considerable
correctness. That reason was, that by means of this
Bill • the Government would avail themselves of
the Papal prerogative for purposes of their own in
the government of Ireland. If so, it was a matter
of vital importance to the country, as it affected
not only the prerogative of the Crown, but the alle-
giance of the subject. Commercial and political pur-
Poses were undoubtedly involved in the present measure,
which at one time were intimately connected. It was
hot the Spain of the Bourbons, but undiplomatic Spain,
that gained them that great ascendancy in the warfare of
Europe, and he was very sure that this Bill was not the
!nestle of establishing this influence abroad on the most
- aisfactory basis. Its effect would be to connect the
Pope with the system of European diplomacy, which he
thought ought to be carefully avoided. He gave his
cordial suort to the amendment.
pp
Sir R. T
NO
GLIS, though he agreed to a very great
extent in the opinions expressed by the Hon. and Learned
Mem
bar for A
Ysu
fopporr!
n. a r 6 Sd
ilence to theu propositiona id he
could not
sa
which
h
broughti s
been
chiefly nst this measure. The case for the Bill had
based on the convenience of commercial
relations between this country and the States of the
Chureb. He should like to know what commercial re-
stions of that kind, such as they were, which had not
been most efficiently discharged by their Consuls at
Rome, to whom, as he understood the office, those func-
tions were generally entrusted? He regarded this mea-
sure as the commencement of a fundamental change,
as the commencement, in fact, of a reconciliation
between England and Rome. In that light the objects of
the Bill were regarded by a large portion of this commu-
nity. There were bishops in the Church of Rome to
whorehe would not object except in this, that they
claimed to be bishops in England against the Queen's
wish and permission. Dr. Wiseman said that Pope
Gregory XVI. observed on one occasion, " That it was
for England to begin. England had a law disgraceful to
herself, and insulting to the Church. Let England re-
peal that law." It would seem that this very line of po-
licy had been closely followed; but the question was,
whether this step was to be taken towards a reconcilia-
tion between England and the Pope, recognised in his
Pontifical character. The fact appeared in the Tablet
and in the Dublin Freeman's Journal, that bulls were
now in this country from the Pope, constituting arch-
: bishoprics and bishoprics in this country. He did
net complain of Roman Catholics endeavouring to
advance their religion, but he did complain of Pro-
testants affording them every facility, although they
believed they were in error. Was the sovereign
power of Rome represented at that moment by the
Pope and Cardinals? and was it not notorious that they
were bound by free agents ;in their own city. He (Sir
R. Inglis) contended that the Pope violated his treaty
. with Austria, that he sent forward his troops to attack
Austria, and it was at such a moment they were going
to receive an Ambassador from him. Now, the House
should recollect that 3,500 of the clergymen of the
Church of England signed a protest against the present
Bill, and that whilst they displeased the Protestants they
did not by any means conciliate the undivided affections
of the Catholics by the measure. At an aggregate meet-
ing of the Catholics of London, held in March last, the
measure was condemned, and why, then, was it brought
forward at such a late period of the session? It was in-
troduced into the House of Lords early in the session.
The standing orders in that House were suspended for
the purpose of carrying it through with post haste, and
yet it was only on that night it was brought for-
ward • in the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.)