The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, JULY 14, 1846.

which I may introduce may meet with very great
opposition. At the present moment I have no further
stay,ment to make to the House.

Col. WOOD, who was inaudible in the gallery, owing
to the great confusion which existed in the House, after
the conclusion of the Noble Lord's statement, was
ralerstood to say that, in consequence of
the explanation which had been made, he would with-
draw the notices of motions which he had upon the

paper.
-Mr. WAKLEY expressed his strong approbation of
the ,course about to be pursued by the Noble Lord as
the very best cours- which could be adopted.
Mr. PAKINGTON expressed himself highly satis-
fied with the course Which the Noble Lord proposed to
follow.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Messengers came down from the House of Lords
bringing several Bills.
LUNATIC ASYLUMS BILL.
Mr. PAKINGTON asked, in reference to the Bill for
altering and amending the Luratic Asylums Act, whe-
ther it was the intention of the Government to do any-
thing with it during the present session ?
TRANSPORTATION TO VAN DIE }ZEN'S LAND.
Sir G. GREY said that the question of transportation of
males to Van Diemen's Land had been under the consider-
ation of the late Government, and would certainly
occupy the attention of her Majesty's present Ministers.
He could not say more of the course which her Majesty's
Ministers might pursue in reference to it, except that it
would be deemed necessary meanwhile to suspend the
transportation of males to that colony for a limited
period.
Mr. EWART gave not7ce that he would postpone
for ten days the motion whif4l he had on the book for
that evening, namely, on going into Committee of Sup-
ply, to move, that it is expedient that the practice of
making Van Diemen's Land a genereal receptacle for
convicts should cease ; that transportation be discon-
tinued as a punishment, and be maintained only as a
supplement to the previous punishment of im-
prisonment. On Friday week, should there
be a Committee of Supply moved for, he would bring in
his motion.

IRELAND.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that as considerable anxiety
prevailed on the subject in Ireland, he wished to know
from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State
for Ireland what course was to be pursued with regard
to the three Bills brought in by the Noble Lord the
late Secretary. Did the present Government intend to
brinE.s, the Bills forward in any shape, or did they intend
to introduce any of their own ?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, in reply to the question of
the Hon. Gentleman, he thought it would be more con-
venient if he delayed till Thursday next to state the
course which the Government proposed to take. All
he would say at present was, that be was engaged in a
careful consideration of the whole question, and he would
undertake to say that no benefit secured to the Irish people
by these Bills would be lost. On Thursday, however,
he would state the course which the Government in-
tended to pursue.
REGISTRATION OF MEDICAL OFFICERS.
Mr. WAKLEY wished to ask her Majesty's Govern-
ment whether they would consent to the passing and
enactment of a Bill during the present session provid-
ing for the registration of duly qualified members of the
medical profession?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not think there would be
sufficient time during the present session to consider fully
a measure of so much importance.

Mr. WAKLEY conside'red it a very small measure,
and would not long occupy tl.e attention of Ministers.

CAPTAIN WARNER'S INVENTION.
On the order of the day being read for going into a
Committee of Supply,
Lord INGESTRE rose, pursuant to the notice
he had given, to csll the attention of the House to
the subject of Captain Warner's recent inventions. He
proposed that a humble addre,s he presented to her
Majesty, praying that she would be graciously pleased
to give directions for the investigation of Captain War-
ner's inventions. He was sorry that this subject had re
eeived so little of the attention which it deserved from
Parliament ; he felt corfident, however, that before
long that inattention would be at an end. Attacks had.
upon former occasions, been made upon the veracity of
his Gallant Friend; tho,e attacks bad been utterly un-
founded. He hoped that this question might be con-
sidered by her Mtij,sty's Government, for he could
assure them that, however much disposed they
might be to treat it lightly, he considered it one
of the most important subjects which could be
brought under their notice. He wished, in the
first place, to correct a strong impression which had
arisen out of an erroneous statement made in that

House, and he was sorry to see that the Right Hon.
Baronet who mad• the assertion was not in his
place. The Right Hon. Baronet had said, in
1842, that Captain Warner refused to make
any communication unless he had the distinct
promise of 400.000/. In the correspondence which he ,
had moved for in 1844, there had been omitted by a
mistake a letter which he could'produce to the House,
and in which he distinctly stated that he would leave
the question of remuneration to her Majesty's Go-
vernment, provided he received a guarantee that
he should not go without remuneration. There
had also been a statement read that when the experiment
was tried at Brighton several pilots said that there were
several ropes hanging over the side of the vessel.
leaving ample room for any deception. He had a com-
munication from a gentleman who had ascertained the
truth of the statement, and he could show that the pilots
as a body had denied the assertion, and had stated that
there were no ropes hanging overboard but the tow ropes.
Captain Warner had made many siMilar offers, and had
desired to be called before the Prime Minister or the First
Lord of the Admiralty, offering to explain his invention
to them without any stipulation for a reward, but he had '
very properly refused to explain it to any Commissioner,,
who were not authorised to do more than make a
report upon the subject. He said, if any one would take
the trouble to look into the history of this affair, he
would find that offer after offer had been made by Cap-
tain Warner to the late Government, and
all had been rejected. The Noble Lord re-
ferred to the language of Sir George Murray on
one of these occasions, to show the over degree of caution
which they had taken, treating Captain Warner as
though he were an unprincipled person and a swindler.
He must admit that the Right Honourable Gentleman
(Sir Robert Peel) had always paid great attention
to him (Lord Ingestre) when he brought the matter
before the House, but he would never look into it him-
self, referring him continually to the ordinary channels,
which channels he (Lord Ingestre) found as continually
:hut against him. He might refer, he said, to the first
Commission on which the Hon. Baronet the Member for
Liverpool (Sir H. Douglas) was, in evidence of what he
said. The two subjects of experiment were the invisible
shell and the long range. It was agreed, after a great
deal of correspondence, that the long range should be the
first subjected to experiment ; and an estimate of the
expense was made up, which fixed that 2,5001. was neces-
s try to carry out the experiment. But another course
f correspondence ensued, which ended in 500/. being
ffered for the purpose. Of course Captain Warner re-
oudiated the offer, which was but one-fifth of the sum he
'tad named first of all, as required for the experiment.
fie could not characterise such conduct other than most
unjust and most unfair to Captain Warner, who had not
had fair play meted out to him. He then alluded to the
-ship on which Captain Warner experimented at
Brighton, for the destruction of which by Captai❑ War-
eer he (Lord Ingestre) gave the signal, and a minute
-Igor he did so, although he did not specify the exact
rime he should do so, it was destroyed. He also read
papers to show that Captain Warner had been most un-
rairly and improperly dealt with. He could not think that
iny thing could be done without the effect of the private
Committees being perfectly understood. He might al-
-1 isle to the railway which was justified by the report of
:he Hon. Sir R. Keats, who had been the great authority
,n those points. He might also cite the opinion of
Lard,M Gs bourne, whose motion stood for the 14th of May.
If these records were taken, there was not any doubt
that the claim under Sir Robert Peel was admitted. He
.vould not allude to the dealings of Captain Warner, be-
eouse he believed that great loss had been sustained by

hat individual, and un 'er these circumstances h

thought that there was sufficient ground for the principle
of which he bad spoken. Such being the case, he (Load
Ingestre) was naturally anxious to ascertain why this
principle should be entertained. On this ground, then,
ne thought there ought to be an allowance, and a suffi-
cient allowance. The experiments made at Brighton
were quite satisfactory as to the complete success of
Captain Warner's invention. There was no connexion
whatever between the ship which was blown up and the
steamer that towed it, much as had been said of this
matter at the time. He (Lord Ingestre) had looked at
the whole question as a naval officer for many
Years, and he was firmly persuaded of the
truth and value of the invention. Much as it had been
ineered at and contemned, he must still persist in that
opinion. It was a remarkable fact that all great inven-
tions of this kind were met by ridicule. He need only
refer to the origin of gas, as a proof of the manner in
which important inventions were first received. Only a
Cew years ago, Dr. Lardner said that it was impossible
for steamers to cross the Atlantic, whereas now they
crossed that great sea almost every week. Then let
them look at railways ; mark the circumstances under
which they were first projected, and their great success
•it the present day. When the first line was laid down
it was said railway trains would not much exceed the
speed of mail coaches without great danger ; but now
they were daily running at the rate of 25 and 30 miles
an hour, yet no explosions or accidents were the
result. When they were expending such large sums
on fortifications, they should pause ere they
rejected the due consideration of such a great
invention as the one under the consideration
of the House. With that invention he would engage
with only one ship, to blocade any harbour on the coast
of England, or attack any fleet that might be brought
against him. They were a commercial people, and he
implored the Government to give the subject a dispas-
sionate consideration. He had no interest whatever in
bringing the subject under the consideration of the
House, beyond doing good to the country, and protecting
it against all chances of foreign danger. Though he
had occupied the House fur a considerable time, he
could not sit down without reading a letter which he
had received from Captain Warner a few days ago.
( the Nobb. Lord then read the letter, dated July 2,
which was in eff ct an expression of regret at the treat-
ment he had hitherto received, and expressing a deter-
mination to apply to the new Administration for their
assistance in the matter. It further entered into a vin-
dication of the course he had pursued in regard to the
remuneration he sought for the invention, and in respect
to his objection to the kind of arbitration proposed by
the Governrnen.) He felt, that he had trespas,ed rather
too long upon the time and attention of the House, but
ho trusted that the importance of the subject would i,e
a sufficient excuse for his having done ao ; and what-
ever might be the result of the discussion, if it had the

object of directing attention to the correspondence which
he moved for and obtained in 1844, and which he had
succeeded 'obtaining in the course of' the present ses-
sion, he would be amply repaid for his trouble.—(Hear,
hear.) All he wanted was a fair trial and no
evour ; and with the view of bringing the matter more
minedia,tely under the attention of the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government, he begged have to move
as an amendment to the original motion, that an address
be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will be
graciously pleased to give directions for the investi-
gation of Mr. Warner's inventions.
Captain PECHELL would be very happy to second
the motion, for the sake of inquiry and discussion, and
while he did so he could not but admire the zeal and
ability which the Noble Lord had exhibited in conduct-
ing the case of Mr. Warner through three successive
Administrations.—(Hear, hear.) Ile admitted that the
ship at Brighton was blown up, but it must be remem-
bered that the vessel just previous to its disappearance
was in tow of a steamer. Now, here was the difficulty.
They did not want such an invention as this when a line
of battle ship could get so near its adversary ; and he for
one believed Mr. Warner never would be able to accom-
plish the end he had proposed to himself. It could not
be contradicted tint before the invention could become of
any use, the vessel to apply it must approach very near
indeed to the object to be acted upon.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir H. DOUGLAS said he once had the honour of
being a member of a Commission appointed to investi-
gate the merits of the invention, and certainly the con-
clusion he came to, after duly and patiently considering
the subject, and witnessing many experiments, was that
common gunpowder would accomplish just as much as
Mr. Warner's shells. When everything was ready for +
the trial of the astounding discoveries of Captain '
Warner, the Commis,don received a letter from him, in
which he positively stated that he would not proceed to I
make the experiment or disclose the secret in their
presence, unless he received an assurance from the Go-
vernment that he should be paid a sum that had beea
previously named. He (Sir IL Douglas) begged the
House to mind the terms of the letter, " before he pro-
ceeded to make the experiment." The Committee, of
course, in reply, told him that they had no power
to make any final arrangement with him—
(Hear, hear)—but that if the experiment were
made they should report to the Government, who,
of course, would be at perfect liberty to deal with him
as they should think fit with respect to remuneration.
They also replied to him, that his proposition was en-
tirely at variance with his previous arrangements. Now
the Noble Lord (Viscount Ingestre) had said that the
answers of Captain Warner, to the questions of the
Committee, were taken down in writing. They were so
taken down, but that was done in the presence of Sir
B. Martin, who, on the part of Captain Warner, took a
leading part in the affair ; they were, in fact, written
down by that gentleman, and it was right for the House
and the country to know with what sort of a man they
had to deal. No one was' present in the room but
the Commissioners, Captain Warner, and Sir B. Martin,
and the minutes that were taken down in writing
by that gentleman, he (Sir Howard Douglas) bad then
in his possession, and it was but just to the House and
the country that the important parts should be read.
The Hon. Member having accordingly read a few ex-
tracts from the minutes of the Committee's proceedings,
went on to say that the Noble Lord had made another
charge against him (Sir H. Douglas), and that was, that
he had done his best to draw from Captain Warner the
secrets of his invention, but in reply to that charge, he
begged to say that never was projector more fairly and
favourably treated by any Government or public body.
Every assistance was afforded him, and he (Sir H.
Douglas) could confidently assert, that his case had re-
ceived from the Committee the fairest and fullest conside-
ration, Now he thought after such gallant men, men of
such high character as his friend Sir E. Owen and Sir B.
Martin, had said that, in their opinion, the experi-
ment was a decided failure, no one could fairly say that
Captain Warner had been unjustly treated by the Com-
missioners. He hoped he had briefly convinced the
House that not only Captain Warner, but the public st
large, had been justly treated by the Committee, of
which he had been a member ; that they had, after great
labour, extensive experiments, and much expense, fairly
given Captain Warner's inventions a fair trial ; and the
present Government would, he trusted adhere to the
conclusion to which they had come, viz., that the in-
visible shell by itself was a great delusion, and a most
ridiculous affair. If Captain Warner could, under such
circumstances as the Committee had proposed—
that was to say, in a particular sort of weather,
tide, and wind, carry his shell to the distance of
five or six miles, and with perfect safety to those who
should have to use it, then, he for one, should support
it.—(Hear, hear.) But until that experiment could be
made successfully—and, with the little smattering of
science that he (Sir H. Douglas) had, and the practical
knowledge which he had of gunnery, he was convinced it
could not—he must continue incredulous in such matters.

—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had spoken of the
great improvement of gunpowder, and many other
things ; that many. trades had been brought into exis-
tence, and many sciences were now in active operation,
which, not long ago, we should have deemed
utterly impracticable. But having the experience which
he (Sir H. Douglas) had in these matters, he knew that
it was physically impossible to project a shell five or six
miles distance. Of course it had been aid-some years
ago that it was impossible to produce such a thing as
gas, and that steam would never come into operation in
its present powerful shapf. But all these were inherent
in nature, and merely required minds of a powerful
calibre to bring them into active operation. Captain
Warner's theory, however, was based on a false founda-
tion, and his mind was biased. When he (Captain
Warner) was reminded by the. Commissioners of the
difficulty of overcoming the resistance of the air,
he replied, " What ! do you talk of the resist-
ance of the air? I have a power a hundred
times greater than that." Now they must
all know, that were it not for the great resistance of the
air, a shot could at present be carried a range of sixty
miles at the least. It was perfectly absurd to talk of a
theory, when there was the practice which they could
not overcome. Of course, they must know that the
greater the projectile force, the greater the resistance of
the air. The ablest scientific journals of the day had
also shown the utter impracticability of the scheme of
Captain Warner, and amongst ethers were the Political
Review and the Artisan. All of them were unanimous
in pronouncing the experiment a failure. He would
himself stand within a range of six miles, and defy
Captain Warner or any other man to reach him at that
distance by means ora projectile shell.—(Laughter.) From
the largest mortar that had been manufactured a shell could
be projected no further than three miles, and on that
experiment labour and care had been bestowed. Captain
Warner in reference to that experiment had said that
the mortar was not a projectile ; but if it was not that,
what was it ? On all the grounds that he had stated,
then, he must say that he was incredulous as to
Captain Warner's so-called inventions,' but he
contended that they were not in fact inventions
and that every one of what Captain Warner called " his
secrets" had been published years ago in a French
scientific work. He hoped he was mistaken in saying that
Captain Warner's scheme was a failure ; but after giving
the subject a fair and patient investigation, he could come
to no other conclusion than that the whole affair was most
ridiculous and absurd ; and he, therefore, hoped that
her Majesty's Government would not be disposed to act
in contradiction to the decisions of the Committee of
which he had been a member.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the only course which the Government could adopt
would be to appoint a Commission of several impartial
persons competent to inquire into the subject. He
hoped such a course would satisfy the Noble Lord, and
induce him to withdraw his motion.
Mr. BROTHERTON said that all the information he
had received upon the subject was from Col. Shaw, who
had served in Portugal. He (Col. Shaw) had offered to
Capt. Warner to test the powers of his invention, but
Capt. Warner had made a great number of excuses upon
the subject; and it was Col. Shaw's opinion that he
could not perform anything like what he had stated was
in his power to do. He thought these discussions upon
long ranges and invisible shells should not he allowed to
occupy so much of the attention of the House. Their
attention should be directed, not to the promotion of the
means or the reward of inventions for the purpose of
destroying life and spreading misery and ruin, but
rather for the promotion of arts and sciences, tending
to improve and benefit the condition of the people. He
thought that future generations would say, that too
much of their time had been wasted upon these useless
discussions.
Mr. WAKLEY thought it high time that these ques-
tions should be settled. Much time had been occupied
in the discussions of these matters, but nothing satis-
factory had been come to. He thought that the Com-
mission to be appcinted should consist, not exclusively
of military or naval officers, who were naturally preju-
diced, and in favour of old habits, but that two or three
persons of acute observation and strong common sense
should be included in it, who would go to the question
without any prejudice on the question ; and, to prevent
any disagreement, Captain Warner should be required
r e a
d y
obtainedto expi ess in writing, that he was satisfied with the ap-
pointment of the Commission. He quite agreed with the
opinion, that the public money might be expended in a
better manner than in encouraging the art of war, but
it must be borne in mind, that the best way to preserve
pews was to be prepared for war.—(cheers.,
)Ile
hoped the Noble Lord would consent to withdraw his
motion.
Sir DOUGLAS beggedobtaining to state, with regard to
in
nwri writing, to
to
respect to the Commission of which he had the honour
to be a member, but it was productive of no benefit
whatever.
thecom m itshse io cno,nthseantt that o fehaBdPtain been Warner,al
Lord INGESTRE thanked the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for this, the first
act of his public Administration ; it was ono of justice,
and complimented him upon so favourable a commence-
ment of his duties. He was sure that Captain Warner
would be quite willing to abide by the decision of the
Commission appointed by Goverornment ; and he (Lord
Ingestre) would be happy to affd the Government any
assistance in his power, in the forma-ion of that Com-
mission. Under such circumstances, he would not press
his motion. The motion was accorlingly withdrawn.
THE PROVINCE OF SINDE.
Mr. HUME begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet,
the President of the Board of Control (Sir J. C. Hob-
house) whether he was at that time, or if not then,
whether he would upon an early period, be prepared to
state in %%hat condition the province of Sinde was to be
considered whether as forming part of the East India
Company's possession, or us belonging to the British
Government.
Sir R. H. INGLIS wished to ask the same Right
Hon. Baronet whether it was not possible for them to
retrace the steps they had taken in the province of
S-nde, and replace thole whom they had wrongfully
dispossessed of their territories in their former position?
Sir J.C. HOBLIOUSE would be prepared, with refer-
ence to the question of the Hon. Member for Montrose,

at any time he might give notice, to answer his ques-
tion. At present he was not prepared to do so. The
Right Hon. Member for the University of Oxford 'Must
excuse him if he declined to give an answer at present
to so large a question as the one he had put to him.
ARMY AND NAVY ESTIMATES.
Mr. WILLIAMS wished to call the attention of the
House to the very large amount of the estimates proposed
for the army and navy in the present session. Anxious
as he always was to save the public money, he would not
have made any objection to these increased estimates had
the situation of affairs, as respected this country and the
United States of America, remained the same as they
were when those estimates were first brought forward.
A change had, however, happily taken place, and all the
differences between the two countries were now brought
to an end, and consequently the necessity for these in-
creased estimates was entirely removed. There had
been an immense increase in this branch of the estimates
since the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
left office on a former occasion and the present time.
If Hon. Members would refer to the estimates
of 1835, and compare them with the present
time, they would see the enormous increase. He
would not confine his remarks to a single year,
but he would take the average expenditure for seven
years, from the year 1835, and that would show the
astonishing increase for the present year. In 1835 the
expenditure was 48,780,0001, and the expenditure pro-
posed for 1846 was 55,500,0001., being an increase over
that of 1835 of 6,720,000/. In addition to that, a reduc-
tion of 600,0001. took place in the Two-and-a Half per
Cents., which raised the expenditure of the present
year over that of 1835 to 7,329,0001. Taking again the
average of seven years, commencing with the Adminis-
tration of Lord Grey, and including three years of that
of Lord Melbourne, he found the expenditure was
1,100,0001. more than in 1835. He admitted that the
late Government might be quite justified in increasing
the expenditure in the army and navy departments, but
in every department of the Government an increase
had taken place which was perfectly astound-
ing. The miscellaneous estimates alone amounted
from two to three millions. The cause for such in-
crease had ceased; the country, he considered,
was in as good a position as it occupied in 1835, in
respect of the foreign relations. There seemed to be a
disnosition to peace, and he gave the Noble Lord
(Palmerston) at the head of the Foreign Department
much credit for wishing to maintain the relations with
foreign countries in peace. He did expect, therefore,
that the Government, as soon as they hadileisure, would
scrutinise the whole of the estimates, and make every
possible reduction. Why, be said, the increase of
7,320,000/., was some two millions more than the income
tax, and some two millions and a half more than the
malt-tax ; if then the Government could reduce the ex-
penditure to what it was in 1845. then both of, these ob-
noxious taxes might be abolished. The cost of the
revenue itself ought to be scrutinised and reduced. He
found that there was an increase in that item between
the years 1841 and 1845 of 350,0001., and that the in-
crease in the same item between 1806 and 1845 amounted
to 1,150,000/. He hoped then that the present Ministry
would follow the course taken by Lord Grey, and revise
the whole of the expenses, whereby he was certain they
would acquire and retain the increased confidence of the
country.
Mr. HUME said he did not expect to hear the obser-
vations which had just been made, but he felt obliged to
the Hon. Gentleman, and the more so because with a
new Goverment they were likely to have their weight.
He said there was only one suggestion which he wished
to throw out to the Noble Lord. At the commerce•
ment, he said, of the Grey Administration a Committee
was appointed, as the Nobe Lord himself would recollect,
to revise the salaries of the different officers of State.
That Committee gave great satisfaction, for the country
was now determined to look into the expenses of the
Government. The inquiry he alluded to ought to have
been carried through all the departments, for Parliament
then took upon itself to regulate the salaries, and ac-
cordingly the salaries of the Presidents and the Secrete.
ries were fixed and approved of by the House, but here
it stopped. He thought that the officer at the head
of each department would have inquired into these de-
partments, and made the necessary reductions. That
was the course followed by Earl Grey, and he got great
credit by it from the country. But what he (Mr. Hume)
wished, was that the Noble Lord would allow the mis-
cellaneous estimates to be submitted to some such
scrutiny as the Irish estimates were subjected to. Many
of these Irish estimates were found to be most extrava-
gant and absurd, but a proper reduetion was made, and
the result was greater economy, and a better discharge'
of the duties of the office. The Irish themselves, who
were rather loose in money matters, received this result
with approbation. He did not mean to recommend any
improper reduction, for there were many of the under
departments very ill remunerated; where officers, after
many years' service, left ill compensated. But there
were officers whose good pay accompanied little or no
labour, and there he thmight a reduction ought to be
made. He assured the Noble Lord that this coursewould
give great satisfaction, and gain him the confidence of
the country.
Dr. BOWRING said the Government had one great
means of relieving the public from increased burdens.
The Noble Lord would 'recolleet that a Committee was
appointed on public accounts. That Committee made
their report, and in it laid down certain principles. The
great principle which they had laid down was, that the
gross revenue should be paid into the Exchequer. Now
he (Dr. Bowring) knew cases in which from 6,700,000/.
to 6.900,000/. had altogether escaped the attention of
Government—cases where nearly 7,000,000/. were taken
by some of the departments and applied, while other of
the departments took it from the sale of public stores,
and ne note of it was taken till the receipts were handed
in. Such irregularities, he said, ought not to exist ;
and so long as they did exist the' Gdvernment could
not be conducted with economy. He boriea, then, that
the Noble Lord would correct them ; and he had no
doubt, if he would subject the whole to his; own personal
I observation and control, he would effect a great saving
to the public.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Coventry (Mr. Williams) had attributed the
increase in the naval and military departments, during
the Melbourne Administration to the war in America ;
but he (Lord J. Russell) remembered attending to this
subject before the Noble Lord at the head of that depart-
ment, and was his opinion, that though that was no
doubt not left out in"making up the estimates, still the
colonies and dependencies of Great Britain made an in-
crease in these departments necessary. As to other ob-
servations which fell from the Hon. Gentleman, he
would only say that it was bad policy to exhaust their
forces in foreign service. He found, for example, even
under the present system, that the regiment at the head
of those in Inlia went there in 1825. He thought a re-
giment, after being ten years abroad, should be five years
at home. As to the cost of the revenue, he hoped the
House would excuse him if he declined entering upon
that subject at present, but he would certainly turn his
attention to it hereafter.
General DE LACY EVANS said that he was one
of a Committee appointed by the House to inquire and,
report upon the best mode of economising in the mili-
tary and naval departments, and at that time he did most
anxiously wish that economical arrangements would
take place ; but he had seen enough within the last few
years to convince him that reductions in the army and
navy establishments would be anything but economical.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply.
On the item of 2,345/. for the Ecclesiastical Cons-

mission,
Mr. E. DENISON rose to object. He considered
that the item was enormous, as not one half of the Com-
missioners ever attended the Board, being prevented by
their other professional engagements. He was prepared,
next session, to move for a Committee of inquiry, as he
considered the business of the Commission was not satis-
factorily performed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
he was quite aware that the business of the Commission
was nut—satisfactorily performed ; and he considered
that if a responsible Commission were appointed, it would
remedy the evil to a great degree
Mr. WILLIAMS most strongly objected that the
people should be taxed for a Commission to inquire into
the revenues of the Church. He did not wish to oppose

_ ..
the Government; but he felt in a most awkward pos
tion, as he could not conscientiously support the vote
and unless some intimation was held out that the neces
vary inquiry should be made into it, ho would take the
sense of the House upon it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
would make an inquiry into the circumstances ; but he
was not till then aware that it was an opposed vote.
Mr. WAKLEY said that he most sincerely hoped that
that vote would not for the future appear in the proceed-
ings of the House. It was quite unjust, and he put it to
the Right Hon. Baronet below the gangway (Sir R.
Inglis) whether those votes did not bring the church
into discredit.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
did not mean to impute any dereliction of duty to the
Commissioners ; what he found fault with was the
constitution of the church.
Sir R. INGLIS said that the Parliament had no right
to meddle with the Church property; it had not bestowed
it, and so it had no right to meddle with it.
Mr. HUME said he did not wish to see gentlemen
ungrateful. Whose was the property first ? The Ca-
tholics'. Who took it from them ? Why, Parliament,
and gave it to the Protestants. So, therefore, the Church
had no reason to complain when Parliament stepped in
to make those reformations which the Church refused to
make themselves.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said that with regard to the vote
for the Ecclesiastical Commission in Ireland, he would
refer it to the Lord-Lieutenant, from whom he expected
valuable information; so that if it were necessary to
come to Parliament he would know how to act.
The item was then passed.
The next vote was for 120,7001. for the administration
of the law to the poor.
Mr. HUME proposed that 100,0001. be taken upon
account, so that the question might be left open for
discussion.
Mr. WILLIAMS considered that after the revelations
which had been made with respect to poor-law legisla-
tion, the course suggested was exceedingly proper.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob-
served that such a course would be wholly ineffective.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS objected to the amendment
of the Hon. Member for Montrose. He considered if it
were carried, the working of the law, for which the Hon.
Member himself professed so strong a regard, would be
completely obstructed.
Mr. WAKLEY strongly condemned the manner in
which the poor-laws of Ireland were administered. Had
he known the question was about to come on this even-
ing, he would have brought down to the House the diet
• table of the union of Bromley. in Kent, from which it
would be seen that 4oz. of animal food was all that was
1 allowed for the sustenance of an able-bodied man in the
• course of the week. In that union, it appeared that 40
, out of 87 persons, who were in one of the workhouses,

were stretched on a bed of sickness. What other effect
could follow such treatment ? It appeared also that in
the same union the aged and infirm had only 15oz. of
animal food in the week ; 15oz. were allowed to the aged
and infirm, while to the healthy and able-bodied, with
strong and vigorous stomachs, only 4oz. were allowed.
Under such circumstances, he would ask, what
was to be done with the Poor-law Commis-
sioners ? He believed that in their private
capacity they were all estimable men, but this was a
case of gross injustice, and perpetrated, too, against a
class of individuals who were least able to defend them-
selves. It was quite clear that the Commissioners of
Somerset House were useless—were worse than useless.
That Commission was a monstrous grievance engrafted
on the constitution. He did not wish, however, to con-
fine the administration of the poor-law to local bodies ;
a central governing body was necessary, but how it
should be constituted he was not prepared to say. He
called, however, upon the Noble Lord to fix his attention
upon the subject, and lay down such a system of manage-
ment as would be best adapted to meet the demands of
the country and the wants of the poor. He therefore
entreated the Hon. Member for Montrose to persist in
his motion, and to take a division of the House, to show
the Poor-law Commissioners the feeling of the House on
this subject.
Captain PECHELL said that it had been his inten-
tien to propose a postponement of this question—
(Hear, hear)— and he saw no reason to alter the course
he had marked out. It was impossible to conceive the
horrors and iniquities which were detailed before the
Committee, although a great part of them were detailed
in the publie press. The case was one which called for
serious consideration, and though he did not wish to im-
pede the
.measure, he thought that it would be better to
postpone it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
see any good to be effected by the postponement of the
discussion, it would be merely putting off a difficulty to
a future day.
Mr. HENLEY said that after the statement which
had been made by the Hon. Member opposite (Mr.
Wakley), he thought that he ought to move for a return
of the diet tables. He did not see that any practical good
could result from delay, and he thought it would be ad-
visable to grant the money, as it was merely a temporary
measure. He, therefore, should vote against the mo-
tion of the lion. Member for Montrose.

Mr. HUME said that he only wished a part of this
grant to be kept back. He did not object to the system
of poor-laws, but merely to their administration, and he
would therefore withdraw the motion he had made as he
did not wish to be thought willing to offer any obstruc-
tion to the law,.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that he thought some
further opportunity of discussing the measure ought to
be afforded this session, but it would be advisable that
the present vote should be allowed.
After a few words from Captain PECRELL and Mr.
FE RG U SON,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM made some observations in
explanation which did not reach the gallery.

WAKLEY said that he saw no other course but
to give way as his Hon. Friend had done. He com-
plained of the position in which medical gentlemen were
placed under the New Poer-law, and considered they
ought to be made more independent. As it was, medi-
cal officers in connexion with poor-law unions were in
a far worse position than those employed in infirmaries
and dispensaries, where they had the power of regulat •
ing regimen as they thought compatible with the state
of the patients. This was not so under the poor-law
guardians, for the medical officers were continually in-
terferred with in this respect, and liable to rebuke and
dismissal. He thought it was a matter which ought to
be taken up by the Government.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said it was impossible the
Government who had just come into office could have
considered the details of the question, and he would
therefore be excused in occupying the House briefly in
explanation. The subject of medical relief was indeed
an important matter, and should not be lost sight of in
the administration of the New Poor-law. A Committee
had sat on the question of medical relief some time ago,
presided over by Lord Ashley, and the result
was the issuing of a general order
.by the Poor-
law Commissioners, which ended in placing the medical
officers in as independent a position as he could desire.
He did not go the length of the Hon. Member (Mr.
Wakley), as to the perfect independence of medical
officers, but thought it was necessary they should be
under a certain degree of control. 'Though the con•
trolling power of the Poor-law Act was much objected
to, he must say that, were it removed, matters would
be much worse than they were at present.—(Hear.)
He did not see bow they could improve upon the present
arrangement. He, for one, did not think it proper that
low rates should be paid to medical officers. but that a
fair and liberal remuneration should be afforded. Their
object was not to fix the rate too low on the one hand,
and to guard against an undue liberality on the other.
Mr. HENLEY said there was an item of 30,0001. for
schoolmasters and schoolmistresses engaged in the edu-
cation of the destitute poor in connexion with the poor-
law unions. He wished to know how it was applied ?
He was satisfied that a strong feeling was entertained
throughout the country on the cutting down of salaries
of the medical officers, and much blame was in conse-
quence thrown on the Poor-law Commissioner. The
local authorities under the poor-law were not to blame
for that.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM explained that the school-
masters and schoolmistresses would remain as they were
now, subject to the control of the Commissioners. An
increase in the salaries of the schoolmasters had been
oroposed in the hope of getting more efficient persons
for those situations.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the question being put that 15.724/. be voted to
defray the expenses of the factory inspectors,
Mr. HINDLEY said the House ought to be put in
possession of the details of this estimate.
Mr. HUME objected to the vote altogether. It
seemed rather strange that while with one hand they
were removing with the other they were imposing re-
strictions on manufactures. He confessed he could not
see why a manufacturer could not erect a building
without calling in the assistance of a medical officer.
The vote was agreed to.
The sum of 1,7051. was voted to defray the salaries of
certain persons in Scotland connected with the land
revenues.
On the question being put that 6,4641. be voted for
defraying the expenses of the household of the Lord-
Lieutenant of Ireland, _ _

Mr. HUME said he intended to-morrow to move that
the office of Lord-Lieutenant be abolished ; and he
thought, therefore, this vote ought to be postponed.
It was agreed to.
On the item of 39,000/. for defraying the expenses of
the Secret Service Department.
Mr. HUME said it was exceedingly strange that this
item should be the same every year. He wished to have
an explanation on this head.
Mr. WAKLEY said the country was at peace, so was
that House—(Laughter)—and the Ministers were duly
installed in office, without any chance of being ousted
for a long time, and he could not see how so large a
sum could be required. The House and the country,
too, were entitled to a fair explanation as to the pur-
poses for which this money was applied.—(Hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
57,0001. was then agreed to for criminal prosecutions,
law charges, &c., in England.
On the item of 21,000/., for the charge of the Solicitor
and officers of her Majesty's Treasury,
Mr. WILLIAMS said that these expenses had been
already provided for in No. 1. The salary of the Soli-
citor of the Treasury in 1841 was 2,000/., but now it was
2,8501.; and the salaries of all his clerks had been doubled.
—(No, no.) The public documents proved the fact.
Now, he wanted to know what increased duties had de-
volved upon these individuals to justify an increase of
their salaries ?
Mr. CARDWELL explained that the Solicitor and his
clerks performed the duties of solicitor to no less tha
thirteen public offices, and he thought that the House
would see that he and his clerks were by no means over-
paid.
Mr. WILLIAMS said the duties performed by the
Solicitor of the Treasury in 1841 were almost precisely
the same as those now performed by him. Other public
law officers were not treated nearly so liberal by the

Government.
Mr. F. BARING supported the vote, and contended
that the Solicitor to the Treasury was by no means over-
paid. With the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume)
he was of opinion that the present system of remune-
rating the Solicitor by a fixed and just salary, was a far
better mode than remunerating him by fees.—(Hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN explained the reason of the ap•
pointment of additional clerks to the Solicitor, viz., the
great saving of fees to legal practitioners thereby. He
slid not believe that the Solicitor's salary, or those of
his clerks, was at all too high.
Sir J. GRAHAM also supported the vote. The
salary which such an eminent man as Mr. Maule received
for his public services was wisely expended. There
had not been an increase in the salaries of all his clerks.
Mr. WILLIAMS would undertake to prove that there
had been an increase throughout the whole of the esta-
blishment.
Mr. HENLEY wished to know whether witnesses of
bthoethefrroowninthreeceive
eacttoemndmainteteeesinwhceonucret
and the
they had been summoned?.
Governmentdp"'meannt
Mr. GOULBURN said he could not answer the
Hon. Gentleman's question.
Mr. EWART recommended the introduction of the
decimal system, now prevalent iu other countries, with
regard to money.
Mr. HUME was convinced, after a careful investiga-
tion of the report on this subject, that we were better
as we were.
Dr. BOWRING entertained a contrary opinion,
and anxiously looked forward to the day when the
decimal system should be introduced, not only with
regard to our coinage, but our weights, measures, 84c.
The vote was eventually agreed to.
64,0001 for criminal prosecutions in Scotland was also
agreed to after a little opposition on the part of Mr.
Williams. 66,2091. for criminal prosecutions in Ireland
was agreed to.
66,2391. for various purposes, commonly paid out of
the county rates, having been proposed,
Mr. HUME objected to this vote, unless ene Govern-
ment had the complete control of the Ftisoners after
conviction.
Sir J. GRAHAM entered into explanations, and said
he held that the control of Government over prosecu-
tions was very necessary, a consideration which weighed
with the late Government, and that the present vote con-
cerned the maintenance of prisoners convicted at the
assizes or the quarter sessions,
Mr. HENLEY thought that the word "maintenance"
was not sufficiently explained. As this grant was to be
made from the p4-blic fund, the public had a right to
know how it was, applied.
Mr. HUME thought that if the public defrayed the
expense, the management of this system ought to be
vested in the public.

Sir J. GRAHAM agreed with the Hon. Member,
and begged her Majesty's Government to pause before
making this grant, as it would entail a good deal of
trouble to them in the appointment of proper authorities
to see the find applied.
The vote was then agreed to.

It was then moved that the sum of 12,4631. be granted
to her Majesty to defray the expenses of the prison for
the juvenile offenders in the Isle of Wight.
The motion was put and agreed to.
It was moved that the sum of 19,920!. be granted to
her Majesty for the expenses of the Model Prison, at
Pentonville.

Mr. WILLIAMS said that the results of the system
of management in that prison were most appal-
ling, and many of the prisoners had been removed
from it to lunatic asylums. The cost was also enor-
mous, as each prisoner cost annually 39/. 7s. 6d., or 158.
per week—a sum considerably exceeding the wages of
two Dorsetshire labourers. He had intended to have
opposed the vote in into, but he would not do so, in the
hope that the Right Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary
(Sir G. Grey) would take the matter into his most se-
rious consideration.

Sir G. GREY said the report on the prison, which had
been laid on the table of the House. as well as his own
experience of the working of the system, was totally at
variance with what had been stated by the Hon. Mem-
ber who had addressed the House. He hoped, on
another occasion, should the subject be brought for-
ward, to prove that the system adoped at the prison was
not of the character which had been represented.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM agreed with the Right Hon
Baronet (the Home Secretary) as to the system adopted
in the prison. The system had not been fairly repre-
sented by the Hon. Member (Mr. Williams). He
denied that it was a cruel or a pernicious one. It had
been represented as the silent system; but it was not so.
It was a separate, but not a silent system, and great
benefit had resulted from its adoption. —(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WAKLEY thought his Hon. Friend the Member
for Coventry had formed an erroneous opinion of the
merits of the system, through reading some of the false
and exaggerated statements which had gone forth to the
world relating to it.—(Hear, hear.) If more physical
exertion were not insisted upon in the prisons, constitu-
tional debility would follow. They had at present
hardly sufficient labour to maintain their strength. He
believed that the gaol to which he had alluded was well
governed, and conferred great benefits on society at
large.

'Mr. HENLEY had always felt great anxiety about
the occupants of our gaols, and thought that the subject
of an improved treatment of our criminals should be at
once taken up by the Government.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that after what had
fallen from the Hon. Member for Finsbury he would
not detain the House at any length on this subject. He
certainly considered that many prisoners under the new
regime would be improved in their honesty, industry,
and sobriety.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WILLIAMS explained. They had no proofs
that the prisoners under the improved system hail be-
come improved in their morals, notwithstanding the
enormous sums that had been expended for that purpose.
The fact that but few of the criminals had learned
trades during their imprison was a proof that the public
money had been injudiciously expended.
The vote was agreed to.
898,6001. was then voted for the inspectors of prisons
and lunatic asylums in Ireland.
5,0001. was also voted for the maintenance of the
prisoners, &c., at Perth.
62,3301. for convict establishments in Bermuda, De-
merara, and Gibraltar, was agreed to.
The House having resumed, the orders of the day
were then proceeded with.

THE METROPOLITAN SEWERAGE, AND NEW
ZEALAND LOAN BILLS.
These Bills were read a second time.
BATTERSEA PARK BILL.

The report on this Bill was brought up and agreed to.
Mr. GROGAN moved for an account of the quanti-
ties of curd provisions of all kinds imported into the
United Kingdom from foreign countries, from the sth
day of January to the sth day of July, 1846, specifying
the diff.Tent kinds, the countries whence sent, the quan
tities of each kind entered for home consumption, and
the amount of duty paid upon the same respectively ;
also, the quantities of each kind re-exported, and
whether taken for the use of the ship, or for merchan-
dise, and the place to which the same were re-exported.
Agreed to.
Mr. MORISON moved that Mr. Francis Baring be
added to the Committee on Railway Acts Enactments.—
Agreed to.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at Halt-past One o'clock.

PIRATE/3.—A letter from Moss (Norway) states
that the schooner Betty, Gjetteon, of Christiana, from Bremen,
with colonial produce, was attacked by pirates in the German
Ocean, on the 12th of June, at about seven in the morning,

by a boat filled by armed men. They first bearded the vessel
to the number of ten, and demanded water and bread. These

articles being given; they asked
_for wine, meat, and other

things, whichthe captain refused. Eight other men then
came on board, and after mastering the crew, amouting to
nine men, took away a quantity of articles of various kinds,
and did much damage by cutting ropes, breaking nautical
instruments, &c. They then departed. They seemed of
various countries—Duch, English, Russian, and German,
being spoken amongst them.-.-Hull Advertiaer.
SWINDLING ON AN EXTENSIVE SCALE.—Consider-
able excitement has existed in Stockton, during this week
and last, by an attempt at wholesale swindling, which, how-
ever, was fortunately defeated. A few weeks ago, a person
of a respectable appearance, and passing under the name of
Metcalfe, took a shop and premi-ea of Mr. John Atkinson,
in the High.street, for the purpose of carrying on the trade
of ship-broker, and general merchant. With the view to
enable him to supply his immense number of imaginary
customers, he gave orders for large quantities of
malt, oil, soap, and other articles of different
descriptions, to various hf Ives in Newcastle and
other places. Several tradesmen received large orders for
goods and furniture of every kind, and in quantity sufficient
to furnish a castle. Mrs. Metcalfe also honoured the dress-
makers and milliners with orders for dresses of the latest

fashions and richest kinds. Terms being arranged with
parties for the purchase of several valuable houses, shops.
and warehouses, to accommodate his daily expected
merchandise, and everything appeared to denote that
Mr. Metcalfe was in possession of great wealth.
This impression continued until the appearance of
a policeman from London, who, taking a lively interest
in his safety, took him away in custody. It was_then di-
vulged that he is one of a gang of swindlers who have ope-
rated with considerable success upon the public, and whom
the police have been actively engaged in endeavouring to ap-
prehend. It is supposed this capture will prove a clue to the
apprehension of the entire gang. Only a few of the orders
so abundantly dispensed were executed before the discovery
of the real character of the adventurers. The Stockton
police were very active in bringing this offender to justice,
and are deserving of great praise for the energetic asssistance
they rendered to the London officer.—Durharni Chronicle.
SHOCKING RAILWAY ACCIDENT NEAR NOTTINGHAM.

—BEESTON, SATURDAY.—Yesterday (Friday) afternoon, at
the five o'clock train from Nottingham was approaching this
station, which is four miles up the line, the engine-driver,
John Fisher, observed a child croesing the rails a short dis-
tance before him, he imniediately shut off the steam, re-
versed the engine, and blew his whistle, at the same time
the guard put his break on; but the train going at the rate
of nearly forty miles an hour, it could not be stopped until
it passed over the poor child, and crushed it almost to atoms.
The train having been stopped, upon examining the body it
was found that the upper part had been severed from the
lower; its bowels were strewn about, its chest and arms
were crushed, and the shoulders were wrenched from their
sockets. The head and portions of the upper limbs lay in
fragments near the rails, and the lower portion of the child's
bociy and the legs were driven to a distance of six or seven
yards off the line. Upon inquiry, it was discovered that the
poor child was the daughter of Matthew Lowe, a game
keeper, who resides at Padge House, near the railway ; and
she was only 22 months old. She had been placed in a chair
in the garden by her mother whilst she got tea ready, and
strayed to the spot upon which she was killed. A coroner's
inquest was this day held, when the jury returned as their
verdict—" Accidentally killed by a railway engine and &
train of carriages passing over her body."
FATAL RAILWAY ACCIDENT.—BIRNINGHAM, SATUR-
DAY EvENING.—To-day an inquest was held at the Plough.
in Shutlock, on the body of a man named Thomas Kirkland,
who was killed on Thursday last, on the Birmingham and
Derby Railway. It appeared from the evidence that the
deceased was 49 years of age, and had been employed as a
workman in erecting posts for the telegraph on the above
line, a short distance beyond the forge station. lie had just
finished the erection of a post he had been engaged at, and
was retiring with some of his fellow workmen, when he re-
collected that he had left a tool behind him, and returned for
it, walking between the up and:down lines until he
came to within a very short distance of the spot where he had
to cross over to the post. At the moment, however, an en-
gine with some empty waggons appeared in sight, and the
deceased attempted to run across the line, but before he
could get over the rails the train came up, and the buffer of
the engine struck him, knocked him down, and the wheels
passed over his body, almost severing it in two. No blame
unfortunatewhatev e could r bfeelloawtta4esdelf,toanadnythe jury returned individualretexecd a ver-
dict
ept th
of " Accidental desth. '
NUMEROUS FIRES IN ONE NlGHT.—Between seven
r.m. on Saturday and three A.M. on Sunday, not fewer than
five fires occurred in the metropolis. One took place at
No. 5, Paradise-street, Rotherhithe, in the occupation of
Mr. W. Sandwill, a baker. The lower portion of the pre-
mises and contents were nearly destroyed, and the remainder
considerably damaged. Another fire occurred almost simul-
taneously with the above at the premises belonging to Mr.
Henry Miers, a skin dryer, 1, Queen-street, Church-street,
Mile-end New Town. It was caused from the overheating
of the stove in the drying-room. Considerable damage was
sustained. The Brigade and West of England engines were
called on to attend another fire that had broken out in
llornsey-lane, Holloway, upon the property of Mr. William
Duckworth, a farmer. It was caused by some boys playing
with fireworks, which set a stack of hay in flames, but they
were soon extinguished. A fourth fire happened at 14, King-
street, St. James's, occupied by Mr. William Weston. It was
speedily extinguished. The fifth fire happened at 13, Dor-
chester-place, Blandford- square, occupied by Mrs. Mary
Barry. It was caused from a spark of a candle coming in
contact with some linen. The inmates succeeded in getting
it out before the arrival of the engines.
THE TURES AND THEIR WIVES.--Of the domestic
and social character of the Turk little is known, as it is
rarely he invites a Christian to his house, and when he does
so his wife and family are carefully hid ; but the training
which he receives is of a nature greatly calculated to de-
stroy the pure domestic feelings. Clothed like a fantastically-
dressed girl, his head bound rotund with shawls, subjected
every day or two to the bath, and accustomed to sit only
upon sofas, his childhood is entirely spent among the women
of his father's harem and their cronies; but when he arrives
at puberty he is no longer: allowed to associate with the
women ; probably never speaks to one until he is married to
some girl that his father or mother may have bought or
selected for him. After marriage, the Turk associates almost
as little with his wife as if he had not one ; his former train-
ing hits destroyed those pleasant ties and feelings that exist
among civilised people, and he looks upon his wife. merely
as a piece of furniture. She, on her part, occupies. ber own
part of the house, where, seated among 'ner slaves and cro-
nies, the newest fashion or the latest. scandal receives a
proper degree of attention. The Tusk never walks abroad
or appears in public with his wife, rind if he were to meet
her in the street would not recognise her; and in many caseser
husband and wife sit at separate tables, while the wife netv
appears in any case at table whe a stranger a praseu •
Reid's Turkey and the Tigits.

!

.e-