The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-24 00:00:00

LEICESTER !AIL WAY.

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GLASGOW, DUMFRIES. AND CARLISLE RAILWAY
EILL—CONSIDERATION OF REPORT.
Severel petirioesi,om Glasgow, Dumfries, and other places
in the west of Scotland, were presented in favour of this line.
The order of the day was then read, that the report be take*
into consider Ginn on that day six months.
Mr. EWART rose, and said that sin dealing with the im-
portant subject before the House it behaved them to be careful
how they interfered in expressing an opinion with respect to
the decision of the Come..ittee.—(Hear, heat, from Mr. P.
Stewart.) Notwithstanding the cheers of his Honourable
Friend, he ventured - to state that the character
of the House would not allow the operation of the
Committees to ba changed to suit the convenience
of more personal aggrandisement. A Committee had been
formed of gentlemen, selected particularly for their high integ.
rity, iedependence, aed ability, and they had, after due delibe-
ration
and investigation, given in their decision, which was
now sought to be set asia.e by partieswho had interested
motivea. A powerful combination of parties was formed against
the progress of the measure. He altogether blamed these
parties. There was the Caledonian Railway, there was the
Grand Junction, there was also, he believed, the Carlisle and
Lancaster Company, who were all united with a special -
object to defeat the intcntioue of the Bill in
order to promote their own special interest, and to
cause their own special notions to be adopted.
He would ask the House, whether they were prepared to lose its
character in the eyes of the public by rejecting the Bill under
their consideration ? He considered that they were in fairness
bound to resist this attempt to oppose the passing of this
measure, which was calculated to confer the greatest benefits
on the country through which the line would pass, and particws
larly on that part with which he had the honour of being con-
nected. If the House were to overturn the decisions of its Commit-
tees on such grounds as had been alleged, they might be constantly •
reversing their decisions.—(Cheers.) It was very well for his
Right Honourable Friend to cheer him ironically, but he
hoped that that would nut prevail upon the House. He was
' sure that his cheering would not prevent them friane giving
such a decision as would be consonant with common sense's and
that they would uphold the well-considered and impartial deci-
sions of the House. If they did not the public would be
injured—deeply injured. As far as regarded the general
question, they were told that this line ought not to be
sanctioned principally because it would be a competing line.•
Why, he always thought that should be the very reason why
the House should grant it.—(Hear, hear.) He had always
thought that the very principle of the legislation of that House
was the sanctioning of competition—(Hear, bear)—be-
cause by doing so he had always thought that they
were furthering the interests of the public. But
this railway was not a competing railway, even supposing
that competition were to be discountenanced by the House.
It was a railway which struck off at a considerable angle from
the railway that it was represented to compete with by his
Hon. Friends near hem, or, at least, the supporters of that
railway ; and in order to lead the House into the belief that
it was a competing railway, its supporters had been obliged
to distort the geography of,the country. They had not, there-
fore, a single ground to stand upon when they represented
that this was a competing line. It would pour its tributary'
streams into the Caledonian Railway. The people of that
part 'nf the country through which it would pass were certainly
in favour of this and against the other line. It was said that
a cot-amiss:on had reported in favour of the Caledonian line,
but, as a collateral breech, the line now under the considera-
tion of the House had certainly been sanctioned by the Com-
missioners, and the report of the Board of Trade
had, in fact, taken the same view of thi, line as the
promoters had; it would afford a direct communication
with Edinburgh and Ghsgow and England, and instead
of acting eirejudiciaLy to the interests of the proprietors of the
collateral branches, it would rather tend to increase them.
The traffic on the trunk tine between that part of the country
with which he was copnccted and the north would be in-
creased. He contended, then, that as the Board of
Trade had distinctly reported in favour of this line,
it ought. also to receive the sanction of the House.
The Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway was admitted
oa be a tributary to tic Caledonian. The Committee ap-
pointed to decide upon that Bid tA as composed of persons for
whom he entertained the highest opinion; they considereel that
the part of the country through which the line passed required
a separate and indepentleat line for itself, in consequence of
the great mineral wealth which it possessed, and it was there-
fire of the utmost importance that a through line of commuuica
Lion should exist between it and this country. All these important,
circumstances came under the consideration of the properly•
constituted tribunal—the Select Committee upon Railways,
appointed by that Howe. Having gone before this tribunal,
consisting of persons of the highest abilities, his Hon. Friend
the Member for the Tower Hamlets being chairman of the
Committee, and an unanimous verdict was come to in favour
of this railway—the House was now called upon by three
powerful companies to repeal this decision of the Committee,
and thereby to leave the whole of the valley of the I\ MI with-
out railway accommodation. The Honourable Member
who represents that district must know that there is a
general feeling an unanimous assent in favour of the line.
If the House were allowed to repeal the decision of this Com-
mittee, it would indict a great injustice upon that important
district through which the line would pass. If the House
were thus allowed to rescind the decision of its Committees,
when powerful companies came down to the House with
interested motives arid feelings, prayinc, the House to do sos
it wJtild be in vain that the Hon. Is ember for Oxford (Mr.
Estcourt) exerted himself to reform and improve the tribunals
of this House, entrusted with the martsgement of railway;
affairs. Public confidence would become shaken_ in the
and local interest advocated in tbAt Llouse,
personal
decisions of the Committees,
represented, as was the
especially w: en they saw
one by the Hon. member
for Renfrewshire (Mr.
ease with ashamed of stating their persona)
Stewart), who were not
and the interest of powerful companies
in-
terests, and declare their intention to vote according to thee*
interest.
.A powerful iotirnal which exercised considerable,
ds called the attention of the
d asked if these decisions
publicinfluence tts this u o ni
int hp
pe
rttunbtl
questinorf e
This was an were to. be alwaysble ruessceindbefd
tibnstehistr.-Lannuals.,‘er, and if so what
was the Foss'
indication of the. feeling of the -public: mind on this
aken into
matter, and he, called upon every Member of the Honssi
to prevent thisrfeelint becoming general out a the House:
He would move, then, that this question should ho
. further consideration , and if this House should decit.!,e that
atnadvi.ntgal6anbye interest in either f
powerful companies-should not prevail in the house beta.:,utt•
they were powerful, he would further move that this report 10
rose to urge
forthwith taken into consideration.
considera'ons which
theMlrinestrbAeWfOreEStldiers.timuseed,
alember.(Mr. Evart) had stated
upon the House a few of those
considered a particular line,
a Committee having
biro to affect the subject before them. simplyseemed st.
13c said the Hon..
thilsernas*a simple case in whick
and re-
, ported in favour of it, that line ,ort of
the House. N •
ow if that were the • ' consideration its the
case before the Ho aim
super
House (Mr. Haees) would certainly
port it. But the Howe would be surprised to learn, after'
hearing the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, who said that this.
line vs. scheme with the Caledonian.
- nut a competing
Railway, that this line had been rejected by the
Hoard of Trode, and not Only by the Board of Trade, but by
the, first Commis,ion which was appointed to inquire into the
best communication between England and Scotland. He held,
in his hand a report friim the Board of Trade, in which they
distinctly stated that it was quite clear that the traffic front.
Scotland to the south was not sufficient to support two com-
peting systems of railroad; that one must be atepted, and th.s
others neglected, and that the Caledonian and the Niihadals
lbws were two systems inconsistent with each other. lie (Mr..
Hawes) owned, that after reading this report, he did titek
that the last Committe e hall adopted not
course in their e the most propeZ
proeeeeines. H
had in a full House rejectedthat Honourable Members.
line,
the commtsion haddecidedthe Board of Trade and!
would support the ' • against it, and he (Mr. Hawes)
eemsien of the Howe against the late Coin
of Trade, mittee. Against the Beard e
e, against the Commission.
and against te de • (meson of the previous Committee, the late'
Coinmittee, he thought, c--me to an unwise decision,.
He would simply ask the House whether the evidence of public
documents did not- preponderate in favour of the Caledonian
line •
, -; against the decision of the Committee-on the Dum-
fries line? There was, fur instaoce, a Committee of their own
House who had reported against the latter line—the Board or
Trade had done the same, and a Commission appointed by the,
Crown had given a decided opinion in favour of the Caledonion:
line. He sad thee this was noordinary case, and tl.e House ought:
not to allow the Dumfries line to pa,s, at least for the present.
But there was another consideration which he would urges
against this decision. They were living in times of wild rail-,
war speculation, and he found front a taper which had been.
laid leei•ore the House, that there were Bills before therm,
authorising railway companies to raise capital to the;
extent of three hundred and silty millions, while,.
up to the Bth of June, the Bills in the.
other House am9unted.to upwards of one hundred millions.;
Now, he put it to the House, whether, under the circumstances,'
it was not fit and proper that the Dumfries Railway should
,be,
pos'poued till a more favourable period for carrying it out?'
Believing this to be the best that could be done for the sake of,
the public at
interest, considering th tbe evidence er
public documents preponderated against the decision of
the Committee, knowing that the House had autho.
sited an existing company make a line in the saute
district, and to raise two millions of money, affording
an immense amount of labour, a large portion of which was
now in operation ; and considering, lastly, the present state of
railway speculation sad the money market, he thought it,"'
highly desirable that the House should postpone the passing nt.
the Dumfries Bill till a more-favourable opportunity.
05W44D til4 th 4 puarEici uro wvaii
amc4itt.

an extensive and important district, most of whose landed pro-
prietors supported the line. It would also afford great local oe-
eommodation, while it would prove a source of considerable
eonvenience and advantage to a large agricultural
interest ; and, under these circumstances, he, for one.
should support the decision of the Committee —( Hear, hear.)
It was said that the Nithsdale scheme of last year was the sane
as the One in which the Committee adjudicated this year, but
that was not the case. The line of last year was an integral
line from Glasgow to Carlisle; whereas the line of this year
started from Cuntnock, and passing through Dumfries, termi-
nated in the Caledonian line at Gretna, so that this line would
have to pass along the Caledonian from Gretna to Carlisle, to
the great advantage of that line. The line under the conside-
ration of the House would give great accommodation to the dis-
trict through which it passed, taking agricultural produce from
Dumfriesshire, and conveying coal and other minerals from Ayr-
shire to the south. He hoped the House would confirm the
decision of the Committee.
Mr. BAILLIE thought the course which had been adopted
with regard to the present Bill most objec'ionable. The ques-
tion had really been decided last Tuesday night, in a full
House. The majority which then decided against the Bill
was not a very large one, still it was a majority, and the House
was a very full one. It was most unfair for the promoters of
the Bill to take advantage of the forms of the House, and get
the debate adjourned so as to try and get the decision rescinded.
—( Hear, hear.) It was a most objectionable course of pro-
ceeding, and one that he hoped the House would not encou-
rage. He wou:d conclude by hoping the House would confirm
the decision it had come to en the previous evening, when the
matter was sully considered.—( Hear. hear.)
Mr. J. HUME hoped the decision of the Committee would
be sustained. It was a question of great importance whether
they would deprive such an important district as Nithadale of
railway accommodation in order to please the Caledonian Com-
pany. It had teen stated that the Caledonian would require
the whole traffic of the country in order to maintain it. 'lbis
he did not believe, but considered that Company wanted to
maintain a monopoly. He bad received a letter from
a
a person from Kilmarnock, who expressed great alarm
lest the Bill should be thrown oat by the House, as
it would be of the greatest advantage to the
the roug
countr
h-
y
enera
through which it passed, and that feeling was g
out the whole of NithAale and Ayrshire.—( Hear, hear.)
The writer said it would be the only means fop reventing the
monopoly of the Caledonian Company: On very principle
of fair play, and the granting of competition to the public, see-
ing
that the whole of the inhabitants of Nithidale were in
favour of the line, he trusted the House would confirm
the decision of the Committee. On these grounds he supported
the Committee, enc. hoped they would be supported in what
they bad done, so as to put an end to an injurious monopoly.
Mr. BRIGHT said, that the Committee had been sitting
upon the Bill for three weelo, and that they had taken every
possible fact into their consideration, and they arrived at the
conclusion, that it was desirable that there should be a line
through the part of the country %here it was proposed. The
committee had not even a in opion, and they were men
of ordinary intelligence he would presume. What then would
be the position of tie House if they ieverse I the decision of
the Committee? He considered that they should put that
question estrious.y to themselves. There had been a system of
canvassing with regard to this Bill, both in and out
the House, which was most unfair. to say the least of it, to
those gentlemen who had been sitting upon the Committee
He would remind the House that the line ran through forty
Mlles of a very important and populous district, and he would
say that by rejecting the Bill they would be destroying all con.
fklence fur the future in the decision of Committees. If Mem-
bers were encouraged to give an upright, unbiassed decision,
the House ought to give them a more consistent support.
Sir W. CLAY said, as chairman of the Committee, be hoped
the House would g.ve h.m their attention for a few
moments ; he conies ed he felt a very great anxiety on the
course which would be adopted, not on his own account but
for those of the gentlemen with whom he acted; but what-
ever might be the result they would have the consolation of
being certain that they had discharged their duties to the
utmost of their abilities. The public were beginning to have
already serious doubts as to the competency of the House to
legislate on private business, and on railway matters especially.
There were strong party and private interests represented in
that House, and thug. were about to appeal from a com-
mittee of gentlemen sworn to be no way inte-
rested one way or the other, who had heard the whole
of the evidence, to a tribunal which had rot heard any of the
evidence at all. They appointed a Select Committee of five
Members, and they made each of them sign a declaration that
they were no way interested, and to give their decision accord-
ing to the evidence. They were pretty well aware that such
a tribunal was most effective,—but what were they about to do?
—why to reverse the decision given by that sworn Com-
mittee, and appeal to a tribunal for a final decision which
had not heard a particle of evideuce.—( Hear, hear.)
The members of the Committee, and the members of all the
Committees on railway sills, signed a written statement, de-
claring on their honour that they had no interest in ',,he under-
taking assigned to them to investigate and decide upon, they
stated in this case that they had no pecuniary interest in
either of the lines, and that they were th .refore in a position
to give an unbiassed ornion. So far from agreeing with his
Hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth (Mr. Hawes) that the
House should look carefully into the decisions of Committees.
he considered that the House was, in its collective
capacity, unfitted to discuss and decide upon Bilis
of this kind, as a Committee representing the House
was the proper tribunal to do so; but he went to
this extent, that unless there were grounds for considering that
the Committee had not discharged its duty proierly, or that
fresh facts of importance had been obtained, the House ought
not to interfere wi' h its dem-ion —( Hear.) Unless this occur-
red, or even i fresh evidence were obtained after the decision
of a Committee, they oueht to allow the Bill and these new
facts to go to the Committees of the Lord., there to be dealt
with. But was the deci-ion of the Committee on these two
Bills wrong? He solemnly assured the House that he bad
the most perfect conviction, that if the House had heard
the evidence and the arguments which were adduced before the
Committee, that they would be unanimous in its favour.
What were the two grounds ou which hey came to their deci.
sion? It was said it was passed to aecordauce with the opinion of
the Board of Trade and of the Committee of last year. But
these suspicions were entirely groundless, and he maintained
that there was scarcely a tow of a reason for such a state-
ment. The Hon Gentleman The Member for Perth ( Mr. F.
Manic) stated that 'he parties opposing the Bill applied to the
Committee to hare the evidenc, given before the Committee of
last
.t,ear produced, and that they had refused. Now, the
Committee never decided on that question, and stated that if
they did decide the qu st ion they would do so
irrespective of another question then before the
Committee ; hut the subject was considered of so
little importance that neither tie Committee, the committi e
clerk, or the shorthand writer recollected anything about it ;
and if it was of so much importance, the able counsel for the
Caiedonian would no doubt have taken advantage of it and

argued the subject before the Committee, but they did not do
so. But the short-hand writer's not,. of the evidence last
year was taken before the Committee referred to in the
examination of every witness. There was not one
single potut in the evidence given last year which
was not brought fully before the Committee this year in order
to test the evidence produced. The main question
which occupied the time of the Committee was, whether
the new line would take any of the traffic from the daledonian?
This was the 1114111 que,ii,n. They heti the traffic tables on
which the case of the Caledonian was grounded last year, and
also the person who framed them. They underwent the
most strict and complete investigation, but the case
completely broke down. So much for not having the
evidence of last year before the Committee.
The question last year was, which was the better trunk line
for Scotland • but that was not the question this year. That
which the Committee had to consider this year was, which
was the best line north of the Tweed for the country ? They
went completely into that question, and it was the main one;
and the opponents urged, in the most able manner, their ob-
jections, but in that they moat signally foiled —( Cries of
" Divide, divide.") That cry showed the disinclination on the
part of Hon. Membe=rs to hear the facts of the whole case.
After a few obs-rvations from Mr. B. EAST, which did
not react) the gallery,
Sir R. H. INGLIS said that his Hon. Friend, the Member
for the Tower Mamie .s, had said that they should not throw
away the labours rat the Committee. If it were true, as his
Hon. Friend the Metw,ter for Lambeth said. that Committees
were infallible, what occasion was there for the House to
have the trouble to move that the reports of these
Committees be received and adopted? The House did not
trust to the Committee the same discretion as they allowed to
an Election Committee; The matters of which the Committees
were appointed to consider, were afterwards to be referred to
the judgment of the House. He did riot know whether it was
the Hon. Member who had that it they reversed the deci-
sion of the Con:nuttee tlit; year, they teculd c-.ntirm
the decision of the Committee of last year. Meter all the cir-
cumstances, unless they meant to make the House a
pepetual arena, it would be better to suffer the decision of the
very small majority they had already obtained to stand, instead
of brineing down the large number of Members then in the
House to decide the question. Under al the circumstances he
should oppose the motion.
Mr. F. irIAULE said that this was a question in which be
On the last occasion took some interest. That interest arose
not from any conniximi whatever with either of the
parties engaged in this warfare, but fr.na a desire
to see a railway communication extenaing through bit; own
country, and to protect those companies before Parliament
Whb had invested their capital in these undertakings. What
rhilltolle,o_ had heard from his Hon. Friend, the Member for
"war Hamlets, seemed to him to be a call upon them to
reVers•
did
w, sena to which the House came on Tuesday last,
and he
in entire seeurit: en
ground that they should depend
that House. Tbe decision of a Committee et
ruinous. and would he to Ct:if Committee might be
oviiitijury of hosee parties who
were interested in this muter. His atriesict had observed that
lCi:erarawiitthteetrireau the
wastenei.a!ine_as last year,
anthedlianecobtnefpeorre the
irig
Trade bad already decided that the dish,,,,.ll's Board of
would nit be likely to ailed a competition when th:l7 which
aed a‘ked if the eircurnatee..ne I,av
brought forward last year,
es •,ne
ease were altereo one single iota. In this ea,,e the vernitteeimi
first stripped the Ca e, on lan lit.e ot ever) b. anch frtuenrthe rem up_
d. war, and they then said that the line did i.ot f _ ish an de-
Hen wou, da not
quate communication through the di-trict.
detain the House any longer. The present question involved
the fate of a company and the sum of 2,000,000/., which they
had area o red in the scheme. He ti u-ted toe House
would do Justine Co the parties by dol."; justice to the Cale-
donian line, and he should therefore supportithe motion.
Mr. S. WORTLEY had no interest whatever in the line,
but his constituents felt considerably in favour of the line. It
bad been said that the House should he cautious how they gave
their sanction to railway eche There tau no district more
deserving of railway consideration than the district through
which the line passed.
iatahaytt the present was
not a competing line with the CaleedrTnt
~ilway, and until
they could prevail upon Seotchmen to travel 24 miles round,
and to pay for 24 miles of extra
ctortalavneldlintog:
utphiemyrt the not ore.
vail upon persons residing i
Tote
question fin. the House was, were they to support their Corn-
Mittees? There was a general feeling in favour of the line,
end that was, he contended, a prima facie evidence° in favour
of the correetnes. of the decision of the Committee.

Viscount EBRINGTON was a member of the original
Committee. He did not think at the time that the line was a
competing line—he supported it as a trunk line, and should
hill do so. His convictions were strengthened by the decision
at which the second Committee had arrived.

Mr. H. JOHNSTONE did not wish tocleprive the Dum
fries people of railway accommodation. For his part he wished
they were accommodated. and indeed two branch lines had been
Proposed from the Caledonian for that purpose this year. and he
would not offer the slightest opposition to accommodation in
that direction.
Mr. PARKER said, as chairman of the Committee of last
year, be did then certainly approve of the Caledonian line;
=tee that time they had come to a division in the House on the
subject, and he would to-night again, after having considered
it over, give it the benefit of his vote. It appeared to him that
the two lines were compe'ing, and that the traffic would not
support both.
The House then divided on the question that "the report be
Considered this day six months," when there appeared,
For the motion.
.... .leo
Against it 4.... ..... 166
Majority agaist it - 66
After a few word, from Mr. F. .11A UL E, •who de. lined
Ilressing the matter fur her then, but intimated that he pre-
sent decision would not
pret:lale fr:.= tin lenza of
the Row on the third rsidir4l,