The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-24 00:00:00

• -

Tull! SU-14, LONDON. TIMRSDAV

disapproval of the principle on which the grant had been
made.—(Hear' hear.)
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said lie hoped that his Hon.
and Gallant Friend would divide the Committee on this ques-
tion. They had been told that Sir Charles Trevelvan de-
served none of the demerit of the plan that he had acted
upon, and therefore it was to be presumed that he should
have none of the merit, if any existed.—(llear, hear.) He
(Lord G. Bentinck) had read all the correspondence that had
been published, and he really could not discover that any
such great ability had been displayed in that correspondence.
—(Hear, hear.)lle conk! not see the great merit of the sys-
tem of management that had been pursued, and he could
not forget that the country bad been put to great and un-
necessary charges on account of the mode in which the re-
lief had been provided. For instance, at a time that oatmeal
was to be purchased for 14/. a ton in Cork, it was sent to
Ireland from Deptford when it cost 18 guineas a ton.—
(Hear, hear.) He thought that 2,5001. a year, an amount of
salary equal to that of the highest officials in the United
States under the President, was quite enough for any la-
bours that Sir Charles Trevelyan had performed; and he
was also of opinion that no officer of the Treasury should con-
nive at a grant given in this clandestine manner.—(hear.)
Mr. MONSELL begged to remind the Noble Lord that if
the Government had gone into the market of Cork to pur-
chase oatmeal they would at once raise the price, whereas
by purchasing at Deptford they were enabled to keep down
the price in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He believed there was
no individual in this country who had devoted more time and
energy and ability to the difficulties which had to be con-
tended against than Sir Charles Trevelyan.
Mr. GOULBURN begged to remind the Hon. Member
that the vote did not in the least degree affect the character
of Sir Charles Trevelvan.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said, in reply to what had
fallen from the Hon. Member for the county of Limerick, that
at the very time the Government were sending oatmeal from
Deptford to Ireland at eighteen guineas a ton, while it was
selling at 141. a ton at Limerick and Cork, there were for
every one ton sent from Deptford to Ireland. no less than
three tons coming from Ireland into the Thames ; so that in
all probability the Government were merely sending back,
at a large additional cost, the very oatmeal that had just ar-
rived from Ireland at Deptford.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. REYNOLDS said that as he approved of the motion
of his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex, while he in-
tended to vote against it—(Laughter)—he wished to explain
that his motive in so voting was, that he believed the money
had been already paid, and that no vote of this House could
induce the parties to make restitution. He believed that all
the good they could do to the public was to condemn the
principle of paying money without the consentof Parliament.
Atter a few words from Mr. BROTHERTON,
The CHAIRMAN put the question, that the vote be re-
duced from 20,0001. to 15,9551.
The Committee then divided, when there appear ed—
For the amendment
Against it 73
Majority
Mr. OSBORNE said that there were other items in this
vote that he thought required explanation. He found a
charge of 1,149/. for robes, collars, and badges for knights
of the several orders ; 181/. for chains and badges for the
master of the ceremonies and marshal of the ceremonies, and
also a charge of 5231. for defraying the travelling expenses
of the King of the Belgians, the Grand Duke Constantine of
Russia, the Prince of Leiningen, and other distinguished
personages, during their visits to this country. He thought
it disgraceful that the King cf the Belgians and those other
distinguished personages should not pay their own travelling
expenses.—( Hear.)
Mr. PARKER explained that these items belonged to a
class of charges that were formerly in the Civil List, but had
been, of late years, transferred to the civil contingencies.
The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were also agreed to :-428,34.51. to com-
plete the sum necessary to defray the charge of the com-
missariat department; 32,964/. to complete the sum necessary
to defray the charge of pensions and allowances in the same
department.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then proposed
a vote of 132,0001. to wind up the expenditure for the relief
of distress in Ireland up to the present half-year. The Right
Hon. Gentleman said that this sum had been expended
within the last few weeks. To show that the poor-rate had
been levied to a considerable amount for the same purpose,
he might observe that the whole sum collected in Ireland in
January, 1846, was 36,000/. ; in January, 1847, 52,000/. ; while
in January, 1848, it reached 194,000/. The entire sum levied
in the first six months of 1846 was 217,000/. ; in the first
six months of 1847, 339,000/. ; and in the corresponding
period of 1848, 867,000/. There were, however, many parts
of Ireland in which the poor-rate, however well collected, had
been found quite inadequate to relieve the prevailing distress.
Twenty-two unions were in that position. The object of the
Government was that relief should only be given in districts
respecting which it had been shown that no possible exertion
in collecting the poor-rate would make it adequate for the obs
ject. Relief had been given of late almost entirely in food.
As regarded the British Association, he would state, that the
whole amount expended by it was, 236,000/., of which sum
143,0901. went for rations for grown-up persons, 80,000/. in
the same way for children, and about 120,0301. for clothes.
The vote which he proposed was for relief given in continu-
ation of the proceedings of the British Association in the
three months immediately preceding the harvest, when the
distress was the greatest. There were many unions in Ire-
land in which it was impossible they could defray the cost
of their poor. The union in Ireland in which the greatest
distress prevailed was that of Clifden, in which the rate was
19s. 2d. in the pound. The valuation of the union was
22,400/. The expense of maintaining the poor in that
district, from September, 1847, to September, 1848,
was 18,310/. They had a small debt of 900/.
The advances made by the British Association were
9,000/. for general relief, 3,0001. for the relief of destitute
children, and the whole amount due from the union would
be upon a rated value of 22,4001., amounting to a rating in
the pound of 19s. 91d. In another union in the county
of Clare, the amount of rating was 16s. 10d. in the pound;
in another, 15s. 11d. ; in another, 14s. 9d. ; in Ballyra,
12s. ;in Castlebar, lls. 9d The rate in Ireland would
be 2s. 9id. In Down it was lighter than in most counties
in England; it would there amount to ls. 2d. Taking the
electoral divisions in Donegal, there were electoral divisions
in which the charge for the maintenance of the poor this
year would be 445. 2d. in the pound. In Castlebar there
was an electoral division in which the charge was 2as. in the '
pound. In Galway it would amount to 235. Bd. This was
the charge in the pound upon the valuation ; but as it was '
notorious that in many of the most distressed districts a large
proportion of the ratepayers could pay nothing at all, it was
hopeless to expect that any amount of rate could defray the
sum which was advanced. This statement applied to the
western coast; on the eastern and north-eastern part the
burden was lighter, which showed that the distress was local.
It was, therefore, to sanction the expenditure of 132,000/.,
which was required from July to the end of the harvest, to
continue the relief which, up to that time, had been afforded
in voluntary contributions, through the means of the British
Association, that he asked the House to agree to the vote.
There could not be any necessity for further assistance in the
way of depots. He believed that the events of the last two
years had introduced into Ireland dealers in meal and corn,
co that the guardians would be enabled to procure an ade-
quate supply of food. These were the circumstances which
induced the Government to take on themselves the responsi-
bility of demanding this sum of money. Without the assist-
ance thus rendered, it would have been utterly impossible
for the people to have been preserved from utter starvation,
except by the means which had been so beneficially applied
by the British Association. He trusted that the House
would ratify the responsibility which Government had taken
upon themselves.
The CHAIRMAN put the question that 262,545/. be
ggitcgouli
rrrerno,
caa,aAniinnrilivilsinrntttrai
a.ssoesohrdi,nposyfeasf.ttdlanoh3sdrdpti2iiemusoai
Commissariat
make
Department.good the advances of the sum provided for
the relief of distress in Ireland and Scotland, through the
e
000:11bvsiri
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hoorxnnteecoscfp.tot:
thoseoisercoi
correspond
gs-oeerpfrao(t t
resolutions,
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shouldsptec4aerfigures
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pealed
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endeavoured
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Chancellortt hot
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House, by Committee
etbhhy ee oppositioniciencutoeenrt
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was, that Ireland was perfectly capable of maintaining her
poor, as well as the whole of her population. But he had
another and a stronger objection to this vote—that it was
given for the relief of such landlords as had not paid their
rents.—(Hear, hear.) By granting money, without an ade-
quate security upon the property of the country for its repay-
ment, they would be obstructing the objects of the poor-law.
They would be running counter to the professed intentions of
that statute, and they would be encouraging inertness upon
the part of proprietors. A premium would be held out to
those who were improvident. All the landlords had to do
was to make out a case of inability to support the poor, and
they would then receive assistance. He moved the vote be
disallowed.
Sir J. TYRELL considered that strong measures with
regard to Ireland should now be adopted by Government.
T4hoeurseewenads aingEreuartoeprecountsluamrgpetitohnaonf
tshtreornegwmaseassoumreesminottilathast
ago.—(A laugh.) He did not mean to be offensive to any
gentleman differieg from his opinion or peatersuasdistinct, but
be-
it
was quite clear to him that there was ale ron
tween Roman Catholics and Protestants. In the Protestant
districts of Ireland the poor-rate only averaged Is. in the
pound; while in the Roman Catholic districts it varied from
19s. to Ils. in the pound. He solemnly believed that the
Roman Catholic religion, carried out in all its parts, was in-
compatible with the true cultivation of the soil.—(Laughter.)
In Switzerland, the common remark of every traveller
was the great difference between the agricultural prospects
of the Roman Catholic cantons and those of the Protestants.
The latter were far superior to the former. He trusted that
the Learned Doctor (Dr. Bowring), who had a European
treputation, w
statement.l d come to
It hwi
as
sawsseilslt aknnc(en,y
known that
b eianzthoue tvtrhoe_
testant cantons individuals have stopped up all night, and
choauvresegohte umpeeaanrtlyotihnetrheinmdiovrindinnagl—s
e(nßdoars of
not
thloasuegv,h.theor )—w e
roef
stopping up all night—in order that they might go to mar-
ket with their corn—(Hear, hear)—whereas in Roman
Catholic districts, whenever there is a burial, a wake, a wed-
ding, or a saint's day, the operations of agriculture are sus-
pended. And if this be not true, Honourable Gentlemen
who smiled at his statement could get up and contradict
him.—(Hear, hear.) He believed unless the Government
took some strong measures in reference to Ireland, in which
they would be followed by the universal feeling of the coun-
try, there would be repeated calls upon the coffers of this
country to subscribe to Ireland.
iOSBORNEinto
t:e d considereddiscussion
ssofo
the
et thishraetligi
religion
o of mightth
the
well
Irishb e termedpeoplpeople,
ills, eel
el
ea
mn eeodu s
ndebate.cteh ne
forget that
t cultivationhHe
to ousre Honourable
ye
.of
odtßaronetheßsoil
l Belgium,
theon world.to
which draggedMr.
were totallyCatholic_conntries, were the best cultivated of
bautra
pNe'oopulled,forthe
stahkeeHeofntohuerae
any
carriedin the highest point:t of scientific refinement.
religion of then,Confucius to Ireland,arcet wished to transfer the
Honourable
etivation of the soil? He could
geta and unchristianize the
great deal more work
himn
Sundays,
tayhz
whey
nd
it was necessary for the pre-
servation of the harvest or for any other proper purpose, in
Roman Catholic than in Protestant districts. The Hon.
Member for Stroud assumed that the rental for Ireland was
15,000,0001., but he (Mr. Osborne) considered that the Go-
vernment ought to confer some honourable distinction upon
the Count Strilinskv for his exertions in the cause of huma-
nity in Ireland.—(flear, hear.) He desired to take that op.
portunity of drawing attention to the meritorious services of
the coast guard in Ireland, who had undertaken the whole
burden of the commissariat arrangements for the behalf of
the poor.
Mr. CLEMENTS corrected certain statistical statements
of the Hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) relative to
the proportion of the poor-rates paid in Ireland.
Sir. H. WILLOUGHBY asked whether there was any ba-
lance left unexpended out of the seven millions loan to Ire-
land. The House knew nothing of the expenditure of that
large sum.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that
the Right , Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stamford
(Mr. Harries) had moved for full information respecting
the whole amount expended for the relief of Ireland, and
papers in accordance with that motion would be duly laid
on Ls table.