The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-21 00:00:00

great inconvenience. Besides, he thought the training of a
barrister was better for a judge than that of an attoreey.
r. jected to the dense limiting the judges
ie the manner proposed. Ile thought it would be better to
lent e the mater to the discretion of the Lord Chancellor.
Mr. HENLEY thought it would be better not to have any
definition whatever in reference to standing, but to leave the
responsibility entirely on the ihoulders of the Lord Chancelltir,
and he would have the same principle to apply with regard to
attorneys and barristers.
Colonel SIBTHORP thought it very hard to excluie actor
rime, and he hoped that the Hon. Member for Finsbury would
divide the House on his amendment.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought that attorneys
would be by no means so eligible for judges of these courts as
barristers, and suppcoing there were persons in that profession
suitable for the situations, the Lord Chancellor had no means of
judging of their qualification, which was not the case with regard
to barristers. Besides, from their attention having been almost
entirely turned to the minutia of legal details, they were not so
competent to deal with the business which would come before
these eat to as barristers.
Mr. B. ESCOTT denied that there would be any more dif-
ficulty in ascertaining the competency of attorneys than of
barristers. He knew many barristers of seven years' standing
who were utterly disqualified for such a situation, while at the
same time he knew many attorneys who were very eligible to
be judges of such courts.
Lord G. SOMERSET thought that Mtmbers of Parlia-
ment should not be judges in these courts.
Mr. ROMILLY hoped that her Majesty's Government
would introduce a clause in the Bill for the purpose of prevent-
ing Member, of Parliament from becoming judges in them.
Sir GEORGE GREY thought that the Bill sufficiently
provided for that, as no judge of that court could be absent
from his duties sore than two moaths.
Mr. BERNAL thought such a clause as that referred to by
the Hon. Member for Bridport (Mr. Romilly) necessary, as
the clause referring to the two months' absence miglit, be
evaded
Mr. HENLEY thought that the judges should be prevented
from erectising in the districts where the courts over which
which they presided were situated.
Mr. ROMYLLY thought that it would be much
better to invest the judges, as far as possible, with
a purely
.judicial character, and for that purpose he
considered that they ought not to be allowed to practise at all.
Let their whole time be occupied with the business of the
courts, and let them not be allowed to dabble in the litigation
of the loeality where they reside.
Mr. S. WORTLEY thought a man might be a very good
judge of such u court, while, at the same time, he attended to
all the practice which he might get. He had known many
instances of that kind, aad he never knew any evil to result
from it.
Mr. BERNAL said that he had knoviln many cases on the
Welsh circuits similar to those referred to by the Hon. and
Learned Member who last addressed the Committee.
Mr. WILLIAMS said, that he believed the Herne Secre-
tary could find more than double the necessary number of able
barristers, who would be very glad to accept of tie (Zee
upon the terms proposed by the Hon. Member for Fitisba,y.
Mr. R. ESCOTT entirely concurred in the views of the
Hon. Member for Coventry.
Lord JOAN RUSSELL— In his opinion there were two
modes in which they could obtain very good judges, and one
way was that in which they appointed the judges of the superior
courts at Westminster, to whom they gave very considerable
salaries, end compelled them to separate from their practice
at the bar, and to devote the whole of their
time to the questions that came before them
in 'heir judicial character. That plan was found to be calcula-
ted in an eminent manner to obtain justice to the ct untrs , and
by that means they no doubt obtained excellent judges. There
was another mode as respected the appointment to a less important
and more limited sphere, viz., the recorder of the country.
Ile gentlemen who were appointed to those offices were al-
lowed to continue in their practice at the bar. He believed
that with respect to one of the instances which the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman opposite had mentioned,
Mr. Baines, the recorder of Leeds, he was the party who re-
commended him to the Crown, as a tit person for the recur-
dership of Leeds. Now he thought it was most ridiculous to
say that that gentleman, and the others, who fillet the office
of recorders of the country, did not perform their Judicial
functions in an efficient manner. Their heads were con-
stantly exercised, and their minds kept in full vigour upon the
consideration of the legal questions that came before them.
There were no questions on the law of which they hail
become forgetful, because they were continually in practice as
barristers in the superior courts. They had, therefore,
hut two courses to take in respect to the appointments to theju-
dicial offices to be created in these courts, either they must give
the judges very considerable salaries, and have itioee persons
constantly employed in judicial functions, or they must take
the other plan, which, in his opinion, was a very goo.l and
efficient plan, namely, that of appointing persons who would still
be allowed to practice at the bar. With regard to the other plan
namely, that of getting persors who would be paid better
salaries, but would be compelled to remain in certain districts
to which they might happen to be appointed, but that was a
plan which in his opinion would not he found to work well
—(l-fear, heal ) tiad he believed that the consequence
of adopting such a plan would be that they would
find that persons who did not very well succeed
at the bsr—( Hear, hear)—would all be anxious to obtain
these appointmen's, and that men who had talents, and
knew that they were likely to rise at the bar, would refuse to
accept any such employment—(Hear, hear)—and that they
would he thus; excluding men nt the best talents and the greatest
vigour of mind fiom those offices. —( Hear, hear.) He knew
that it was said, and indeed it was perfectly true, that men
who had not much practice at the bar, had a great deal of
talent, knowledge, and judicial understanding. Now, al-
thcugh that was perfectly true, yet the difficulty was for the
persons who had the patronage created by this Bill to ascer-
tain who those parties were. If a man with all this
talent had no practice at the bar, how were the dispensers
of the patronage to knew them? But when they appointed
men who had large practice, they were then certain that
their appointments must give satisfaction to the public.
They selected men of great eminence, acumen, and legal
knowledge. And he believed that the course adopted in this
country was also adopted in Scotland, where the peopei
were never satisfied with the decisions of their local
judges who did not practice at the bar on mat-
ters of law. They almost invariably on difficult points
appealed from their decision to that of a superior judge,
%silo continued his practice at the bar, and was therefore
conversant with the whole machinery of the law. lodeed
the law of Scotland rendered it absolutely necessary that the
jutlges of those superior courts should attend the Court.
of Se-sion at Edinburgh —( Hear, hear)—and on all
these grounds, he was therefore of opinion, that
the principle of this Bill, which would permit the
judges still to continue in their practice at the bar
was the best that could he adopted. —( fif ear, hear.)
He felt bound to maintain the Bill as it then stood, with one
exception. The Hon. Member for Winchester had of
to the appointment of barristers who were to practice in the
district in which they were to act as judges. His Hon.
Friend would make the necessary alterations to meet that
objection, which was, in his opinion, well-founded.—( Hear.)
Mr. hi UME said tnat, with respect to the example given
by 'he Noble Lord, he must dissent trotn it. He !tensed' had
prevented petitions from the penele of Scotland, praying that
they sheul.l have judges resident amongst them. He
thought a local judge would necessarily give more setist: c-
tion than he now eliii.—( Hear, hear.) He. therefore, pro-
tested against the illustration given by the Noble Lord. He
thought that the judges should be judges throughout. They
should not be for half-and-halt duties. What had taken place
upon an analogous question? Why, when the salaries were
fixed for the Masters of Chancery, he himself proposed to give
them 500/. a year additional.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. BERNAL said that different principles were maintained
in this Bill where the attorneys who were o be employed were
to discontinue their practice.—( Hear, ar.) He would make
these barristers a kind of justices going from one district to
another. He would give them enough to do, pay them well,
and keep them constantly employed
Mr. M UNTZ sad it was understood that these judges were
to change their localities; bow, then, if they continued to
practice, were they to discharge their functions according to
the provisions of this Bill ?—( Hear, hear.)
Mr WARBURTON said he could not agree to the Bill.
If he could clearly see the premises of the Noble Lord upon
which he founded his I rguments, he might be able to agter
with him. It should be remembered that those judges had to
deal with a class of litigants who, irons their habits arid pre-
judices, were much more suspicious of the dispensation of the
law than those at Westminster.
Mr. FIORSM AN eaid it was proposed to make such districts
as would employ the whole time of these judges. and of course
then the ana:ega to the Court of the Recorder failed. He had
no doubt, if suffieient salary were fixed, judges enough could be
got from Westminster Hall.
Sir G. GREY said the Hon. Member had mistaken his
meaning ; arid he observed further, that salaries could not ins
med,ately be fixed, as the districts would differ in the amount
of employment, and ought also in salary.
Mr. GREENE put the question, which was negatived.
Mr. WAK LEY proposed that attorneys should be eligible
to those offices. He did not. make it binding to elect attorney',
only that they should be eligible; and he wascertain, if a salary
of 1,200/. a year were fixed, they would get attorneys, many of
whom were men of great legal learning, who would accept of
the office. He did not go aside from precedent in making that.
proposal, for there were sttorneys already judges: and in the
last year's Act, the Small Debts Ball, attorneys 01 ten
years' standing might be judges of the Courts. He felt in
earnest on the .übjeat, and would divide the House on it.
Sir GEORGE GREY said he had nothing more to say to
the proposal of the Hon. Member in addition to what he hat
already said; ;t had already been discussed, and he did not re-
fr sin from answering the Ham. Member from any disrespect.
The House then eivided on Mr. Wakley's amendment.
For the amendment
Against it
Majerity against the amendment. 37
The House immediately afterwards divider on an a.nend•
meat made hy another Hon. Member, that any judge ap-
pointed under the Act should cease to practice as a barrister,
wheat there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it ..
Majority against it
The clause as amended was then agreed to, as were else
Clauses I() and 11

_
Af'Pr a few wpr,l4 from Colonel T. WOOD sod thy AT-
TOHNEY- GENERAL, the 12th ciao:re was agreed to; as were

also ciau.e 13 and 14.

Clause 15 having been read,
Lord G. SOME It .sET rose for the purpose of making some
observation' upon tee clause, %hen
Sir G GREY said that if this clause were likely to create
any considerable discussion, he st,ould, considering the great
pre,sure of business before the [lons?, move that the Cbairnun

... .--- .
do report progress. - -
Clause 15 was then agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave to
sit again to. morrow.
HAYDOCK LODGE LUNATIC ASYLUM.
Upon the order of the day for going into committee on the
Public Works ( Ireland) No. 4 Bill.
Mr. WAKLEY wished to know whether the returns from
the Haydock Lodge Lunatic Asylum
Lord G. SEYMUR was uterstooil to saythat they were
not prepared. were ready.
O
.. . . .

Mr. WAKLEY then postponed the motion, which he in-
tended to found upon them, until Monday,
PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) (No. 4) BILL.
The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
The several clauses having been agreed to, the House re-
sumed, the Chairman reported progress, and the report was
ordered to be br-ught up to.mereot.v.
A messenger from the Lords brought up several Bills, which
were ordered to lie on the table.
PUBLIC WORKS ( I REL AND) (No. 5)
BILL.
The House went into a Committee on this Bill.
The several clauses were read and agreed to.
The House resumed, and the report was srdered to be
broui,ht up to-morrow.
CONSTABULARY (IRELAND) BILL.
The /louse went into Committee on this Bill, and the
several clauses were read aid agreed to.
Mr. WILLIAMS remarked, before Mr. Gre ne le t the
chair, that it was his opinitn that this force was purely mili-
tary, and the expenses ought to be voted among the army es-
timites.

Tile report was rdered to b? brought up i-morrow.
The. Hoe resumed.
TITHES COMMUTATION BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.