The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-22 00:00:00

LAMBETH PETITION.

Mr. TENNYSON, in rising to present a petition from
large number of his constituents, the parishioners of St.
Mary, Lambeth, agreed to at a meeting held in the vestry
hall of that parish, observed, that before he stated the
substance of the petition, he thought it his duty to
the House to state that the language of it was
strong ; but as it had been sent to him by so large
and respectable a body of his constitu,nts, he
considered it his duty to submit it to the House,
at the same time taking care to inform the House
fwly of its contents, that they might form their own
judgment upon it. The language of the petition,
as he had stated, was strong, but at the sane time he
trusted the House would make a full allowance to the
petitioners, considering the great disappointment they
114 d met with, in having their hopes for the r”paal of
he house and window duties blighted. The pe-
titioners state that .‘ We have heard with surprise
and regret the conduct of your Honourable House
io votiwr against the motion of Sir John Key for
the repeal of the house and window taxes, which,
in consequence of the number of houses unrated
and uninhabited, press most heavily on your
petitioners, and which burdens they are totally unable to
continue to pay. The petitioners cannGt find language
strong enough to reprobate this unfeeling decision."
The SPEAKER was perfectly satisfied that the Hon.
Member had stated quite sufficient to convince the House
that the petition could not be received.

Mr. TENNYSON bad considered it his duty to take
the opinion of the House on the petition, and hoped he
should be excused for having done so.

Mr. HU&iR could hardly coincide with the opinion
that individuals, in petitioning that House, had not aright
to call one of its proceedings an unfeeling measure.
The SPEAKER said, a greater liberty could not be
given to persons petitioning in the words they made use
of, than would bF given to a Member of that House.
Mr. HUME was not aware that the language of peti-
tions could come within that principle, but as he had hem
told so by the Chair, he would give way.
SHIPPING INTEREST.

Al. G. YOUNG, in rising to bring forward his motion
r,lative to the shipping interest, hoped he should al-
trays continue more sensible of the respect due to the
ii„use, than ever officiously to intrude on its attention.
The suliiect was of too ranch magnitude to justify his
withdrawing it, unless he could receive an assurance from
ti,e Vice-President of the Board of Trade, that the course
which had been pursued by his Majesty's Ministers, in ap-
pointing a Committee to inquire into the trailing, manufac-
turing, and shipping interests generally would not delay
tie inquiry into the shipping interest alone. He wished_
that the subject should not be delayed and protracte,
tad be wished to know whether the Right Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. C. P. Thomson) would binsgi.veeeshould
an
assurance that the first inquiry by the
thatC°ln int:Commit-
re should report on that separate.
1,0. relative to the shipping interest, a
If the Right Hon. Gentleman o
,itrance, he (M Li
r. o
y ng) would lee} it his duty to pro-
eed with the motion ofwhich he bad given notice....
c
' Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. THOMSON siid, as far as it rested with him-
he was extremely anxious that the subject of the
could
not
t give him that as-
c the other subjects.

Gross Number. Males. Females.
England
Scotland
Ireland
4i per Cent. Duties
1.31X1 '2l 1,0'2'2
.
PERSONS WITH TITLES OF DISTINCTION.
_____----------
Gross Number. Males. Female,
73 29 England----Ti
...................
56 19 37
Scotland ...................
59 20 29
Ireland .....................
6 14
4i per Cent. Unties ... __________2')
SI I`4
0j 8 ,

The object of the motion with which he intended to
conclude was to obtain a return of the considerations for
which these various grants were made, and when he ob-
served the number of ladies on the list, and recollected the
utany scandalous cheap publications which had lately been
circulated in the metropolis, insinuating that these " Con

siderations" were of a nameless description, he could not
but think that it would he an insult to those fair recipients
to suppose that they could have any objection to a motion
which gave them the opportunity of showing the substan-
tial nature and character of the services they had ren-
dered.--(Hear, hear.) He preferred obtaining the in-
formation he desired by means of a return, rather than
through a committee of inquiry, from a feeling of delicacy
which he thought the House would at once recognise. To
say nothing of the inconveniences attending a committee
of inquiry, he could not help thinking that there would be
great indelicacy in calling before it no less than 1,022
ladies at this season of the year.—(Laughter.) He there-
fore preferred conveying the wishes of the House to them
through that courteous medium of communication by
which the orders of the House were usually transmitted.
There was another branch of expenditure, which showed
how the people of this country were oppressed. In
looking over the civil list he was surprised to find
that pensions were given to the servants of his late
Majesty, consisting, of course, of the domestics of
the household.—(Hear, hear.) The number of these
servants was 19S, and the amount of money they re-
ceived 14,4461. In was to such things as these that was
to be traced the origin of that growing feeling of hostility
to the Government which we found everywhere spreading
about.—(Hear, hear.) Tee Government was strong in
that House,—strong, not in the support, but in the fears,
of that House,—yet a sentiment was spreading throughout
the country, which no lover of it could contemplate with-
out apprehension—(Hear, hear)—and if the government
continued to pursue the course they bad hitherto followed
with regard to the finances of the country, the reform of
that House, from which they all expected so much benefit
would turn out to be one of the greatest evils that could
befall the country. As long as that House was consti-
tuted as it had heretofore been, the people always looked
to reform as the means of securing good government;
but if that expectation should now be disappointed, to
what must they look? They must look to themselves,
arid the events that had taken place in that great metro-
polis within the last week plainly demonstrated that they
were determined to look to themselves.--(Hear.) If the
people found that reform disappointed them, they must
look to that for which those who disappointed their just
expectations would be responsible—a revolutietn in the in-
stitutions of the country. He did not hesitate to say that
no one measure bad been brought forward by the Govern-
ment since the opening of the present Parliament which
in any way corresponded with the expectations, not
of giddy and extravagant bodies of men, but of the sober
and rational reformers of the country—he meant the
middle classes. Ministers bad forfeited the confidence of
the national reformers of England, by turning their backs
on all those professions which, when out of office, had
earned them the support and applause of the public. They
had made the term Whig a by-word, and had shown that
the worst species of Tory was a Whig in place. Had a
motion like the present been brought forward when the
Whigs were in their old opposition places, what declama-
tion they would hear about the crying injustice of taxing
the people for the support of State paupers and unmerited
pensioners. As it was, he trusted the Noble Chancellor of
the Exchequer would give some intelligible reason for conti.
nuing a system of paying some of the offshoots of the aris'o-
cracy, who had never rendered the public any service in re-
turn. The Him. Member concluded with moving for a return
of all persons on the English, Irish, and Scotch
pension lists heretofore paid out of the Civil List, specifying
with each name the sum received by each individual ; the
period of grant, the public grounds, or other consideration,
far as practicable, on account of which they
have been granted ; distinguishing those who are widows
and orphans of deceased public servants, and such as
are in the receipt of any salary, profits, pay, fees, and
emoluments from any public source.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.

Lord ALTHORP had no objection to that part of the
motion which referred to the pensions on the consolidated
fund, but objected to its being extended to the pensions on
he civil list. The Hon. Member seemed to think that it
mattered nothing to the public whether the pension was
on the consolidated fund or the civil list, as the public
paid equally for both, and therefore included, or rather
m:xed them both up in his motion ; but it did matter
to the public, inasmuch as the former were completely
under the control of Parliament, while the civil list pen-
sions, as being guaranteed during the life of the monarch,
could only properly come under the cognizance of Par-
liament at the commencement of a new reign. He was
free to admit the principle that no person should receive
a pension not merited by past or present services; but he
did not, therefore, admit that the Crown should not
possess the power of placing such persons as it deemed
tit on the pension list.--(Hear.) Undoubtedly that exer-
cise of the prerogative should be defined and limited, and
within the control of the Legislature ; and, so far as Mr.
Burke's Bill went to attain that limit and that con-
trol, he agreed with the Hon. Member in approving of it.
The House was aware that till the passing of Mr. Burke's
Bill, there was no limit to the power of the Crown to
grant pensions on the civil list, and that that Bill limited
the power to 140,0001., not 150,0001, as the Hon. Mem-
ber had stated. It was not necessary for him to trace the
history of the pension and civil lists from the time of Mr.
Burke to his accession to effice ; all that he had to answer
for was the conduct of the present Administration.
When the subject was on a former occasion before the
House, he had contended that he conceived that the
Crown had a right to the power of granting pensions on
the civil list under certain circumstances, the question
tieing what should be the limit to that exercise. On the
maturest consideration he had made up his mind that the
sum to be thus placed at the disposal of the Crown should
he reduced one-half of that fixed by Mr. Burke's Bill, and
accordingly be reduced it to 75,000/., the present amount;
and that 75,0001. included Scotland and Ireland. He
suspected that if the motio❑ was limited to the pensions
on the consolidated fund, he should not object to it; but
as the civil list was a bargai❑ between the Sovereign and
the Parliament for his reign, he could not permit the same
inquisition being made into it. As to the charges brought
by the Hon. Gentleman against Ministers, he would then
attempt no reply, further than to observe, that he was
confident that ere a few weeks were over, and that all the
measures for reform of Ministers for this session were
before the House, the country would be of a very different
opinion.

Mr. ROBINSON spoke in favour of the motion.

Mr. O'CONNELL hoped that it would he extended to
Ireland, were it only for the purpose of showing up the
system pursued there of bribing the press.
Mr. HUME thought that there must be some mistake
in the present motion, as, with the exception of the
grounds or circumstances of each pension, all the infor-
mation sought for by it was already before the House.
Lord ALTHORP agreed with the Hon. Member for
Middlesex ; and, moreover, had no objection to the pro-
duction of those grounds and circumstances.

Colonel EVANS contended that any pension for which
valid claims of service could not be substantiated should
be forthwith rescinded.

Mr. HARVEY had no objection to separate the civil
list pensions from those on the consolidated fund, and
therefore would confine his motion to the latter. The
principle of which be complained was the monstrous
injustice of taxing the industrious poor of England
for the support of the idle hangers-on of a Court or
a Minister.—(Hear, hear.) But this would not last
long. The 19th century was not the time, and Eng-
land was not the place, for taxing the people for the
luxurious and lascivious laziness of an insolent aristo-
cracy.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord and his colleagues
had therefore better apply themselves in time to put their
house in order.

Lord ALTHORP, in declaring his readiness to consent
to this motion as amended, observed that many of these
pensions had been granted many years ago, and that it
would be difficult to ascertain at present the grounds on
which they were granted.
Mr. HUME wished to have the pensions granted on the
43r per Cent. Barbadoes duties also included in this return.
-Lor ALTHORP stated that he bad no objection to this
addition to the motion.

Lord J. RUSSELL, in acceding to the motion, wished
it to be understood that he did not accede either to the
assertions or to the arguments of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, which he believed to be utterly unfounded,
and which, on any future occasion that the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman chose to select, he would prove to be so.
The motion as amended was then agreed to.
Mr. BAILLIE presented several petitions from Bristol,
against the house and window tax.