The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-28 00:00:00

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

Mr. HENRY GRATTAN, in reference to some
proceedings of the Longford Election Committee,
which fold been published in the Dublin Evening Mail,
and which were injurious to the sitting Member for Long-
ford, and his friends, begged to ask the sitting Member
for Longf ,rd whether it was his intention to bring the
subict before the House, for if it were not, he (Mr.
Grattan) should himself undertake that task, a breach
of privilege having assuredly been committed.
The SPEAKER said, that when the Hon. Member
talked of a breach of privilege, he ought to take care that
he was not himself pill), of one. The Committee would
no doubt do what was proper, if it thought that a
breach of privilege had been committed, and the House
could not in any way judge by anticipation what would
be the dec sion of the Committee.

DISTURBANCES (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord ALTIIOIIP moved the order of the day for the
further consideration of the report on the Irish Disturb-
ances Bill. On the question that the amendment be now
read a second time,

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL rose and stated the dif-
ferent amendments which had been made by the Commit-
tee. Atter a shun discussion, which was inaudible in the
gallery, it was found necessary to re-commit the Bill in
consequence of some informalities.
Laird ALT HORP wished to know what course it was
the intention of the Hon. Member for Dublin to take re-
lative to the recommittal of the Bill, as he was in hopes
the report might be received tonight, and agreed to this
evening.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that he was as anxious
as any person could be, to dispose of the Bill as soon as
possible. He shou.d, however, discuss it again in Com-
mittee. Ile would not oppose the bringing up of the
report ; but he was determined to take the sense of the
House upon the third reading of the Bill.
The Bill was then ordered to be recommitted, and the
House immediately resolved itself into a Committee upon
the Bill. _ _ _

When the House came to that part of clause 4, in which
there bad been introduced an amendment to prev.at the
Lord• Lieutenant from proclaiming any district, merely be-
cause of nonpayment of tithes.
Mr. SHAW hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would not
persist in the iustrtiou of those words. In the first place it
was making an invidious distinction with regard to one spe-
cies of property. Even the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
(the Solicitor-General) and the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Stanley) had objected to that amendment, though
they afterwards assented to its insertion. It was provided
that the Lord-Lieutenant could only proclaim any district
that should be in a state of disturbance, and it was not in
his power to proclaim any place merely because tithe was
not paid. He hoped the words would be expunged.
Even the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Member for
Dublin (Mr. O'Connell), had, when that amendment was
proposed, spoke one way and voted another.—(A laugh.)
Mr. O'CONNELL would support the exclusion 01
those wands, and although it was true he had spoken one.
way and voted another on the former occasion, be would
now both speak and vote for the exclusion. Surely the Lord
Lieutenant wculd not. proclaim every district because tithes
should not be paid, and in. eed be thought that thepre-
sent state of tithes in Ireland militated more against
the clergy of the Established Church than any other class.

Sir R. PEEL said that there was one other reason for
the exclusion of the words, although what the Hon. and
Learned Member had •aid was very convincing—(A laugh. )
The present was the first eff. rr; in legislation of a Reformed
Parliament ; the Lords had sent down a Bill, and the
present was the first amendment in it, and certainly it
would be a curiosity as the fist piece of legislation of the
Reformed Parliament.—(Laughter.)
Mr. STANLEY said he must confess that the argu-
inent of the Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin was
the most extraordinary he could ever have expected
to hear from him.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and
Learned Member now said the words were unnecessary,
because be thought it impossible that the Lord Lieutenant
would use the powers of the Bill to assist in collecting
tithes._(tlear, hear.) Why that was precisely what
he (Mr. Stanley) had before said—(Heir); but tLe
Hon. and Learned Member refused to invest the Lord •
Lieutenant with any discretionary powers, and, therefore,
voted tot the amendment, declaring that he would not look
to the intentions of Ministers or the Lord-Lieutenant, but

o the Act of Parliatnent. A large portion of the House had
been induced to think that it would be necessary to satisfy
even unnecessary scruples—(Hear, hear)—and voted for
the aim nii ment. Why did not the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman then think the words unnecessary ; he then
voted fir them, and said they were unnecessary.
But t f all persons the Hon. and Learned Member
was the last person he should have expected to declare
that the prey tit system was dangerous to Ike clera of
the Established Church.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr.
Stanley) had often raid the Lord-Lieutenant would
never use the Bill in enforcing the payment of
tithes, and his Majesty's Ministers, believing that the
Lord Lieutenant would never attempt to use the powers
of the Bill in that way (which they had frequently de-
dared), consented to the amendment. Having been in-
serted, and not in any way affecting the Bill, he did not see
that circumstances had since occini;:fl to require them to
expunge to-day what they inserted yesterday.—(Hear.)
Although the Right Hon. Baronet did nut think it w,
a piece of legislation that would do the House cred.t

Mr. WASON said that a more absurd clause than this
clause, with its present amendment, never could be
thought of.
Mr. H. GRATTAN said he was not so anxious about
the wording of the clause as the principle. The
question was, whether the Lord-Lieutenant might
not, after this clause, apply his proclamation
to a district where there was a more passive resistance
to the payment of tithes; and he thought he mieh`;
He bad received several letters from the county of
Longford, which had hitherto been tranquil.
From these letters he found not only that
the tithes for 1830 were enfore,d, but also those,
as far as they bad become due, of the present year.
The pat:ent, but much abused clergy of Ireland, had even
enforced the payment of tithes in cases where the landlords
had not applied for tent. These letters stited, tit),
that armed parties were going about the country and the
police were abusing the people in the most shameful man-
ner. it the Bill were intended. then, for the put pose of en-
forcing a provision for the Established Church it would fail
of its effects, and it it were nor, it ought not to go larch to
the people, by such transactions as those of which lie
complained; that the Bill was intended for that purpose.
He complained of the manner that angry discussions were
carried on in the House. For his part, he of jtcted to
the amendment, and if his Hon. and Learned Friend, the
Member for Dublin, changed his opinion on the subject, there
was no reason that such circumstance should be seized
on to make a personal attack upon it. Night after night
the business of toe House was taken up with personal at-
tacks and recriminations. His Hon. and Learned Friend
had not justice done to him ; if it was determined to make
hint the constant object of attack, it would lie better to
bring in a Bill to expel hint from the House, and send
him abroad, that he might not be seen there again.
AIL.. TALBOT said that after what had passed, be
would certainly divide the House upon the question. He
hail seen that a coalition had taken place to-night which
surprised him much, but he would impute no motives
to either party.

An HON. MEMBER, had opposed the clause on the lest
occasion, and he would not now support it. He was
of opinion then, and still held the same, that the clause
would only have the effect of misleading the country.
He was inclined to oppose this amendment because he
had no confidence in the quarter from which it came in any
matter with regard to Ireland.—(Cries of " Oh.") lie had
not that confidence, because the party to which the lion.
and Learned Member belonged had fir 200 years an un-
limited power in Ireland, and had left what was by
nature a country and people unparalleled for their
advantages in climate and situation, degraded, wretched
and impoverished.

Mr..C. W. WYNN said, that he considered himse:f
pledged to support the property of the Church in lrel.nd,
as well as every other description of property, and should
therefore vote for the amendment.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that former Acts pro-
vided for the extra protection of tithes, and they were
therefore recognised as in a better situation than rents ;
therefore any alteration now but went to restore an egnis
libriutn.
Mr. JOHNSTON said a few words in opposition to
the clause.

Mr. SHAW put it to the Committee to say whether they
would allow an obvious absurdity to remain in the Bill.
After a few words from Mr. CHRISTMAS,
Sir E. KNATCHBULL called the attention of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite, his Majesty's
Solicitor-General, to the clause before the Committee,
requesting hint to mite what would be its legal operation.
Mr. LAMBERT said it was his decided opinion that
the distutb.tnces iu Ireland arose chiefly from a hatred to
tithes, and therefore after the voluntary alterations made
by Ministers, and the introductionof the clause then before
them, he could give the Bill his indepen'ent and unpur-
chased support. The Hon. Nletuber then proceeded to
complain of certain articles published in journals said to

be under the influence of the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin, in which most unwarrantable reflections were
made upon Hon. Members of that House. It was not to
be suit red that Members were to be held up to pu lie
odium in Ireland for the expression of their hottest votes,
and the giving their hones . opinioas in that House. That
might be nothing in England, but in Ireland it might be
murder.
The Committee then divided on the question, that the
proviso proposed to be left out should be part of the clause.
Ayes 123
Noes 44
Majority for the Clause as it stood -79
Clause to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 6th, agreed to with verbal amendments.

In clause 10th, after a short conversation, an amend-
ment was inserted at the suggestion of Mr. O'Connell,
removing the words " any person," and substituting " any
officer commanding the district," the object of which was
to take away from Magistrates and police-officers the
power to hold courtsmartial, and place that power ex-
clusively in the officers command:lig districts. The clause,
with other verbal amencnen,s, agreed to.
In clause 14, Mr. STANLEY introduced two provisos.
The purport of the first was, that no forfeiture of goods
or chattels should ensue by reason of any conviction laid
under this Act. The purpoi t of the second was, that no sen-
tence of transportation passed by the courtsmartial shall In
carried into effect, unless sanctioned by the Lord Lieutenant,
or other chief governor of Ireland.—Bmh provisos agreed to..
In clause 16th, verbal admendments were made.
Mr. SHAW objecred to the amendment on elle 19th
clause, by which, instead of giving Illaistrates a summary
power of convicting and imprisoning persons for three
months who did not disperse on being summoned to do so,
it was provided that offenders under these circumstances.
should be tried by a jury.
Atter a faw observations, in support of the amendment,
by Mr. Stanley, Mr. O'Connell, the Solicitor-General, mid
Mr. Shell, and by Mr. Shaw: in reply, the clause, with
the verbal amendments, was agreed to.
Mr. O.'CONNE. proposed, as an alteration to which
he did not anticil that there .ould be any objection,
that the powers grassed by this Bill to the Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland should be suspended, in the event of a dis-olu.
Lion of Parliament, until the meeting of a new Parliament;
and that these powers should also be taken aw ty in the
cases of all boroughs for which new writs shall be issued.
The lion. and Learned Member having moved the intro-
duction of a clause to this effect, it was brought up and
read a first time.
On the motion that it be read a second time,
Mr. STANLEY felt it his duty to oppose the Otiose.
Undoubtedly it was not likely, as he hoped, th,:c the Bid
would be of sufficient duration to comprehend a di.,sotu iuq
of Parliament ; but if such an evelit were to occur as a
Pe :kir operation. He
readily allowed that it Wag dangerous to admit of uncon-
d,igisistualtuiutuionw,uiutidwahsavweelslucthhefruell way not oceasiGn n which
stitutional interference in electians, yet he w is apprehen-
s,ve that if, in the present state of Ireland, the I ord
Lieutenant were not armed with the powers of which
the clause proposed by the Hon. and Learned Member for
Dublin wen). to deprive him, greater evil: m gist ensue.
Mr. O'CONNELL observed, that to apply the provi-
SIODS of the Bill to meetings for the purpose of election,
•7as to trample under foot the first principles of a rep:e-
;entative legis!ati .n. He protested against the caut and
slang which was constintly poured forth by the other site
of the House on the subject of political agitation in Ire-
land.
;won receive a.
Mr. LAMBERT remarked, that -71inever might be at
the head of agitation in Leiand, and "1)
intlira"t'at
rrefotd
feel himself iespowible for th, effect
of
1 would.g
!e
which, neveraieless, he could not wow),.would re-
O'CONNELL observed, that the opposition of the
Mr.
lion.
Member to' the clause, ,dthou4ll inconsistent its one
sort
oeieteudf by the of tlie
respect, was consistent is another i to: the Hon. lember

:night not think it prudent to go again before his consti- 1
tuents without a gagging Bill. By the Bill as it now '
stood, and without the clause which be (Mr. O'Connell)
proposed, it would be in the power of the Magistracy
to
trample on the elective franchise of the people.—(No, no.)
He said Yes, yes !
Mr. LAMBERT warmly denied that he was afraid to
meet his constituents. He could tell the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, that if h.. (Mr. Lambert) had
thought it an object to be so, he could have been the ap-
plauded, the followed, the admired of all those had parties
by whom he was now so bitterly attacked, and might
have had all the pure votes of all the blood-stained agita.

tors of his country.
Mr. O'DWYER said that it might be maintained by
some that the authority against the undue exercise of which
the clause proposed by his Hon. and Learned Friend was
directed, would, in all probability, not he abused by the
present Government, but let it be recollected, that tlie
present Government might have successors who would
grossly abuse that authority.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN reprobated the interference
of the police in Ireland, not only at elections, but on all
other occasions. What was the main cause of the present
state of Ireland? That the gentry wire taking one part
and the people another. They quarrelled with the p,ople,
and they were now anxious to guard themselves against
the people. Fifteen members of the grand jury of the
county of Meath, and fifty-two Magistrates of the county
of Westmeath, had presented a metnor al to the Lord-
Lieutenant for the extension of the rovisions of the Act
to those counties.—(The Hon. Member here made some
allusion to rharges brought, a few 7.ears ago, by tl e pre-
sent Hon. Men her for Mayo against cert .in Ireeholders of
Galway, the exact nature of which we were unable to
coll. ct.) He would not presume to g,ve the Right, Hon.
Gentlem,.n advice, but he would give him this wholesome
admonition—that he had nev r c..mmitted a greater trror
than when he passed from one party to another ; than
when he at one period took up the part of the people,
and at another period took up the part of the gentry of

Ireland.
Mr. DOMINICK BROWNE denied that he had made
any unfounded charges against the voters in Galw,y on
the occasion alluded to by the Hon. Member for Meath.
But he was not surprised at the sympathy which the Hon.
Alember for Meth appeared to fee! for fictitious voters;
as, if he (Mr. D. Browne) were not mistaken, the Hon.
Member itim,elf had had something to do with fictitious

voters in Dublin.
Mr. SHAW alluded (as we understood the Hon. Gen
tleman) to the Hon. Member for Meath's having, on a
former election, availed himself of Government interest.
Mr. JAMES GRATTAN appealed to the House
whether the attack made upon him was honest, just, lair,
or generous? He might retaliate if he chose, but he dis-
dained to do so. He knew that of former Irish Govern-
ments of which an honest Englishman would be ashamed
to hear. He well knew that Calcutta of Ireland. the
Castle of Dublin.—(Question, question.) That cry came
with a bad grace from those who had listened for hours,
yesterday evening, to an explanation of a speech made four
or five years ago by an ex-Secretary of State.
Lord ALTHORP begged to recall the attention of the
Committee to the object and provisions of the Bill. One
of the latter vested in the Lord Lieutenant the power of
prohibiting public meetings in disturbed districts. The
Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin bad observed, that
at popular elections it was atisolute'y necessary that the
candidates should be present at public meeting. in order
to state the opinions upon which they founded their claims
to the votes of the electors. The question was, whether
the spirit of the Act applied to such meetings? It would
be in the discretion of the Lord Lieutenant to put the Act
in force, and he would be responsible for so doing. No
Lord Lieutenant would dare to make an undue use of the
power thus intrusted to him, or interfere with the freedom
of election. Were he to do so, he would subject himself
not merely to censure, but almost to impeachment. There
might he meetings during the progress of elections as dan-
gerous to the pullic peace and safety, as at other periods,
and therefore he could not do otherwise than look at this
clause as necessary to the efficiency of the measure.
Mr. O'CONNELL said it was very well for the Noble
Lord to state that the Lord-Lieutenant would put the Act
in force on his own responsibility. Responsibility in-
deed Why such observations were perfectly ludicrous.
Supposing he proclaimed a county, and the act was after-
wards questioned in that House, his two Members would
immediately jump up and say it was necessary—the
county was in a state of insurrection—murders, and
maraudings, and intimidation prevailed throughout ; and
perhaps, in support of their assertions, a red box would
be produced, and bits of newspapers, extracts of letters,
and other unauthenticated and ex parte statements read.
Hon. Members bad talked about personalities, especially
the Hon. Member for Wexford, whose tone of tragic dig-
nity and bombast he should not soon forget, but the pre-
sent Lord-Lieutenant was personal, even in his-proclama-
tions. Were they to intrust these tremendous powers to
a roan, whose first proclamation might he termed a per-
sonal one—a proclam ition against the Trades' Union—to
the man who had complained in Cork that the people did
not touch their hats to him? Were they to give the au-
thority to proclaim a district during an election to an in-
dividual who bad notoriously mixed himself up, on a late
occasion, with electioneering squabbles and party feelings?
Had not the Lord-Lieutenant taken part in the late con-
test in the city of Dublin? He asserted that he had,
whatever contradiction might be given, and could prove
what he «aid. They hail made out no case; and if they
bad, the Irish Government did not deserve the confidence
of the people.
Mr. STANLEY said, the Hon. and Learned Member
for Dublin had wired him up, by coining forward with a
charge, not against the Government of Ireland, but the
bead of it, founded on the statements of certain news-
papers, and not contradicted. It was ludicrous, that
every time the Government was assailed by two conflict-
ing parties—each bitterly opposed to it—if it was thought
beneath it to notice everything which they published,
their silence should he held as an admission that, what-
ever was uttered by the malice, absurdity, or ignorance
of the one or the other was founded in truth.—(Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. 0 Connell) admitted that the Lord-
Lieutenant had taken the trouble, by a memorandum in
the newspapers, which the Hon. and Learned Member
called a proclamation, of distinctly denying the slightest
interference by Government in the Dublin election ; and
behead yet to show on what authority he ventured to im-
peach the word and honour of a man who, in ordinary
circumstances, he dare not doubt.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. and Learned Member well knew that he stood in a
position in which he chuld not be called upon to retract
or explain anything lie might choose to utter.—(Mur.
rout's.) He stared, tro st positively, that the Govern-
nien were per;e.oly itirlifferent in feeling as to the success
of caniiiitatea who were equally opposed to them. Those
wbo held official situations were p riectly at liberty to
vote for whom they pleased, and had no directions or
suggestions whatever.—(Hear, hear ) He believed the
majority of those individuals did vote against the Hun.
llember for Dublin ; and if, in doing so, they considered
they were voting for the more respectable ,nd more com-
petent candidates, they were acting on their own acknow-
ledged rights in doing so.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SHAW was sorry that the Right Hon. Secretary
had forced him up ; but as a fact had been questioned
with which he was well acquainted, he should not be
doing his duty if he did not rise. It was no newspaper
paragraph on which he founded the assertion he now
made, that the atat,inent of the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber tor Dublin was correct, hut on the authority of Mr.
West himself—a roan of as pure honour, as upright mind,
and lofty principles, as any in that House. That g ntle-
man bad shown him a document, which placed beyond a
shadow of doubt the fact that the Irish Government had
expressed, distinctly, their intention 01 supporting—bad,
indeed, promised their entire influence to Mr. West and
Sir George Rich.--(Hear, hear.)
Mr. RUTIIVEN and Mr. STANLEY mutually explained.
Mr. LALOR supported the amendment.
Mr. AGLIONEN seid, there was one point to which
he was anxious to call the attention of the Hun. and
Member for Dublin, which was, that if his
amendment was carried, there would be no power under
this Bill frt,lrn the period of the conclusion of the election
till the time
of the next meeting of Parliament. He
would suggest that his amendment should h.ve ffect only
during the interval betaCeen the dissolution of Parliament
and the conclusion of the a:ection.
Mr. O'CONNELL was pert:a:Al), willing to agree to the
proposition of the Hon. and Learned Member, if it could
possibly be carried into elf< ct. He slioablal now take the
opportunity of making one or two observations ;ipou the
subject of the interference of the Government with the
Dublin election. It bad been denied that the Govern-
ment had interfered ; be had documents to prove that in-
terference. The contrary assertion rested chiefly upon
the note of the Lord-Lieutenant, which was in these
words :—" 1 desire it to he distinctly understood that the
Government will not take any part in the Dublin election.
Anglesea." What was the document on the other side?
It was a letter, relating to what bad passed between tie
writer and Alderman Dailey, and between Alderman Dar-
ley and Sir William Gossett. The Alderman and anott er
gentleman had called at the office of Sir W. Gossett, and
Alderman Dailey lett the room and went up stairs to ask
what were the intentions of the Government ; and shortly
afterwards returned, and said tbat Sir W. Gosset.t had
authorized him to say that the Government would give ail