The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-31 00:00:00

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Majesty's Ministers were justified, during the recess ot
Parliament, in recommending to the Bank of Engla:ll.
for_ the purpose of restoring confidence, a course o; pro
e
c eding at variance with the restrictions imposed by the
Act 7 and 8 Victoria, c. 32."—(11ear, hear.) Now, here
18 no matter of blame to us. We adopted a very strong
measure--a measure which, if wrong, would have ex •
Posed us to the censure of Parliament and the country
and we called Parliament together to express its
opinion on the subject; but the very first person who
wed upon the House to pass a resolution justifying
our. conduct was the Right Honourable Gentleman, who
'*°rlr to the party most opposed to us.—(Hear, hear.)
Theßight Honourable Gentleman then entertained
the House very greatly with his accounts of the four
!?udgeta.—(A laugh.) The whole of the joke—of which
believe the Noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck), whom 1
bee laughing At it opposite, is the real author—lies in
giving to every statement made with respect to matters
of finance the name of budget. When the Minister
Whose business it is to attend to the finances of the coun-
try makes any statement, in answer to questions put to
'me, the statement is directly called a budget. The np-
Pellaijon is considered very witty, everybody laughs,
and it is exceedingly pleasant to talk of a Chancellor of
tote Exchequer who has produced four budgets.—(Hear.)
t3Ur, Sir, I have known Ministers before now, who have
urought forward propositions on the subject of finance
Which have not been palatable to Parliament or the
country, When I first had a seat in Parlittuent I voted
against the continuance of an income-tax for two
Years, which was proposed for the purpose of winding
UP the accounts of the war. In that proposition the
"'Thu ent of the day were defeated. The conse-
t",llee Was, that on the following day the Noble
who was at the head of that Government gave
UP another tax—part of the war tax. The Government
of that day, not having .the means of paying off the war
establishments which they had expected to obtain, did
ntlt• press upon the House the views which they enter-
tained; but in those days we, who were in opposition,
were not so witty, and we never thought of saying that
a Chancellor of the Exchequer had brought forward
three or four budgets. The Government of the day
gavee up the expectation they had of reducing the debt
~
"' the country, and the consequence is that the debt of
the country is larger than it would have been, and the
%entry was freed from the additional income-tax. The
Aar, Gentleman finds fault with us for agreeing to a
"ranaittee on the estimates, and he draws a very fine
distinction between this Committee and the Committee
appointed by Mr. Pitt, Lord Castlereagh, and the Duke
of Wellington. But the objects of the Committee ap-
fet..rited by Mr. Pitt, by Lord Castlereagh in 1818, and
"I -as uke of Wellington in 1828, were in effect the
_ _ _

Air DISRAELI—They were appointed under a mes-
sage from the Crown.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—True ; that was the
dig
erenes and the Honourable Gentleman thought that
the appoistment of a Committee of the House of Corn-
Ti?ns was contrary to the spirit of the Constitution, and
,eIY t, lead to the most dangerous consequences, be-
"'Use: there was not a message from the Crown that it
*la desirable that an inquiry should take place. I ac-
ee„Pt that distinction, but, at the same time, I must say
:atl do not think that the absence of a message from
,_Q
'le Crown is likely to be so exceedingly dangerous a
Precedent. What really would have been dangerous
sat.for us to have left to the Committee to say what
should be the number of men employed in the army and
%/Y. But we did rio such thing; on the contrary, we
stated that tbe opinion of the Government was that a
certain number of men ought to be employed for the pre-
sent year. and that no expression of opinion on the part
of the Committee would induce us to change that deter-
Initiation. Everything, therefore, which the Honour-
able Gentleman says of that kind I think is a mere
delusion on his part, and has no foundation what-
ever. I must say, at the same time, that a great be-
nefit has arisen from the inquiry which has been pro-
secuted with respect .to the naval estimates, which has
1101 only been of great use to the House, but which has
be•
en
taken into consideration by the Government, and,
tor the most part, adopted. So much, then, for the
Precedent of a Committee on the estimates being an
Useless measure. The Honourable Gentleman has ad-
erted to the question of the Public Health Bill. Now,
that is a measure which, so far from being ashamed of,
.em very glad to have been enabled to introduce to Par-
liuMent;
..and I teel some pride in being a member of a
Ministry which has passed a measure touching upon an
nutrodden field of legislation, and which, in the present
state of our _social relations, is likely to produce the
greatest benefit to this empire. The Hon. Gentleman
"Ys that this Bill has been altered in this House, but I
should have thought that the Honourable Gentleman,
Who wishes the House of Commons to have an in-
fluence in carrying on the affairs of the country, could
hardly desire that the Government should bring for-
Ward a measure and carry it unchanged, and that the
opinions, the animadversions, and even the remarks of
Members of the House of Commons, should hardly
induce the Government to modify a measure which they
had introduced. The Honourable Gentleman next re-
ferred to the navigation-laws. We had obtained the
assent of the House to the principles of that change,
but the discussions which had taken place on other sub-
e•
els have, as the Honourable Gentleman truly says,
prevented our going on With that measure. When,
however, the Honourable Gentleman attacks us on the
subject of the, sugar duties, I think he might as well
have mentioned what has been the history of the change
in the sugar duties. In the year 1841 we proposed a
measure giving a differential duty ot 12s. per cwt. in
favour of colonial as against foreign sugar. It was then
i`'nught advisable by those who represented the colonial
iterests to make that question a question of party, and,
possible, to overthrow the existing Government upon
that question; and they succeeded in that object. They
obtained a great triumph, resting, as they did, their case
Upon the assertion that the admission of any foreign
sugar whatever would be ruinous to the interests of
the colonies. Several years elapsed, and opinions on
free trade had gained great influence in this country
and iu the House. We passed another measure
respecting the sugar duties, and then those who
represented the interests of the sugar producing
colonies came forward and asked, as a favour, that
a differential duty ot 2s. less than we proposed in 1841
night be imposed. But again, following the course
which they pursued in 1841, they made the matter a po-
litical and a party question, and they objected to the
Proposition of the Government—a proposition which
they bad not examined. This led to great debates, and
these debates were continued by the Noble Lord (Lord
G. Bentinck) on other points, not very closely connected
With the subject to which they related. The Noble Lord
cOmplained of a missing dispatch, which never was miss-
ing, but which was in the Colonial-office—(Loud cries of
Hear, hear," from Lord G. Bentinck), and which was
in due time laid before this House. The Noble Lord
finds fault with us for some arithmetical errors, but we
have defended those errors, and we rest contented with
they defence.
Lord G. BENTINCK—You adopted some of the
amendments.
Lord J. RUSSELL—It cannot be denied that the
measure wbicn was brought forward with regard to sugar
did take up a great part of the session. Ido not find
fault with the discussion which took place on that
question, and the Hon. Gentleman is mistaken in sup-
Posing that the Government ever did find fault
with fair discussion on any subject. The Honourable
Gentleman proceeded to comment on the conduct of
the House with regard to writs and corrupt practices.
I certainly supposed that this was not a question on
which- it was necessary for the Government to take the
lead in this House; and I recollect acting many years
n. 440, with other gentlemen who are now Members of this
Rouse, when I used :to take my own line on this ques-
!ib; and when I was successful in carrying motions for
inquiry, and afterwards in passing Bills for punishing
corrupt practices. It is by no means, in my opinion,
necessary for the Government to take up these measures.
At the same time, if I were inclined to complain of any
opposition which has been offered during the session, I
Should be inclined to complain of the opposition
which was, in the first instance, offered to the Bill of
the Hon. Member for Flint, and afterwards to the Bill
introduced by the Government for a similar purpose.
A great deal of time was taken up with those mea-
sures, - and . so much time was taken up with them that,
when the dill wenteto the House of Lords, I was in-
.
Wined by a very great authority-e;net the Lord Chief
Justice—that a Noble Duke, who Cakes a great interest
iii the proceedings of the other House of Parliament,
.was of opinion that this Bill was not one which should
°a proceeded with during the present session. We,
therefore, thought it more prudent to postpone the Bill
to another session rather than press it against the ad-
serge opinion of the House of Lords. I have made a
short statement with regard to some of the 'measures to
**jell the Hon. Gentleman has alluded. I cannot well
answer the charge which the Hon. Gentleman has
brought
torward, when he speaks of a political plague-
al?nt,--it seemed to me that, though in three-fourths of
`llB speech he undertook to defend the House of Com-
toUnthe, in the other quarter of it he made it the object
seifi hie invective. The Hon. Gentleman had complained
that: there is no regular and orgauiz,ed party in this
nse-, When, bewever, I sat on the other side of the
Mouse, lam far from saying that I did not belong to a
CrtYe—because, I must say, that the existence of party
n.,(lt, and that most materially, to the maintenance
oi
member mie free spirit of our institutions. Having been a
of a party when out of office, and again in office,
and' haring been united with men in whom I feel the
!tr_elitest confidence, and for whose opinion I entertain
greatest respect—men whose abilities I esteem, and
reliance--I
constitutional knowledge I have the greatest
_rot) nce--4 do not mean to controvert the statements ex-
Pre,ed by the Hon. Gentleman with respect to the ne-
cessityn_a, of party. But if the Hon. Gentleman and the
Noble Lord have not been able to form a party accord-
ing to their
views, and array an organized opposition to
the fovernment, Ido not think that the Government,
at le
ast'
are such to blame.—(A laugh.) Considering
the labours which are imposed upon us, 1 think that the
task of forming and consolidating a party in opposition
is rather tnc
I much for us to undertake.—(Laughter and
cheers.) If may be allowed any criticism, I think that
the Noble Lord and the Hon. Gentleman have rather
mistaken the grounds on which they have attempted to
form .their party. There are many Gentlemen in this
i 'au r
e oho Rouse—stronglyunat fry
ichattached to the political constitution of
—hst.ror gly attached to the Established
verenced and this country—holding hoalduituiciguityo—piwnihoun,s
urue:
mdonuebtesicild, mig ft aht, if they so thought fit, corn-
Government,party, which, if inconvenient to the
would, I am
useful to the nevertheless persuaded, be
Noble Lord and theHouselitnd to the country. But, if the
that the cause of )11.Gentleman persist in saying
and that they tree-bade has been betrayed and aban-
doned,to revive protective duties,
endeavour in some future year
ing after that which I:isles, I think that they are strain-
ProsPeet of their unattainable, and that there is no
gpasty while they forming a consistent and a coherent
e Ron.
Gentlemanendeavourtl to attain such an object.
COlOPlinatlnt to several members done us the honour to pay a
ushers of the existing A.drainis-

traii,,n. I do not. Ir, nil to make a return for those
eulogiturn,, a hen I say that the energy. the laherieus
zeal, and (b.. un!iiing perseverance et the Noble Diro
the tilt mfr 'or King's Lynn—the ability and eloqwnce
which hay, I.elt shown. not only upon this but upon
other occasions, by the Hot'. Gentleman a ho has just ad-
dressed the House—and the acquaintance with business
possessed by many other Gentlemen who sit on the Op-
position side of the House—ought to form materials for a
party to which a considerable portion of the country
may fairly look with confidence. If they do not succeed
in forming such a party it is for them to explain the
causes of the failure.—(Laughter and cheers.) I have
taken the liberty of' giving them a hint—(Renewed
laughter)—and that I think is as much as I can be ex-
pected to do.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the whole
of this session, I think there have been several circum-
stances which will account for the great delay which
has occurred in the transaction of public business. Some
of these relate to the issue of new writs, and to tn,tters
which belong to the first session of a new Parliament.
Some of them, therefore, we may expect to be cor-
reefed in a future session. I think. however, that it
will be worth while for Members of this House to con-
sider whether, while we preserve these valuable rul,-s
of &bytes. it would not be desirable for some Members
to refrain from giving us so much of their opinions and
so frequently as they do at present.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) It would be invidious on my part ware
I to p,int out any Honourable Members who
tni4ht be considered obnoxious to this observation ;
when, howerfr, the lion. Member says that he comes
here to defend the House of Commons, I really must,
say that the House of Commons is not the defending,
but the c.onoldning piirty. The House of Commons is
the plaintiff in the cause—(fieur, hear, and laughter)
—at least 49 50ths of the House complain of the other
fraction of the House, on account of their being the
cause •of the delay which occurs in the transaction of
public business. lam quite certain that if the opinion
of the mjority of the House could be consulted they
would, on certain occasions—(Laughter)—say, " Here
is a speech which might well be spared—(A laugh)—
we have heard it five or six times before, and therefore
we do not feel it absolutely necessary that we should
hear it, again;" but on the subject of the whole of the
session I must say that the measures which have been
passed form no insignificant proportion of the Bills
which have been introduced by the Government.
Out of 125 Bills which have been introduced

by the Government during the present session
105 have been passed ; and it will be in the
recollection of the House, that at the begin-
ning of the s,,ssion, we had only two days a-week, or
eight days a month, allotted for the purpose of pro-
posing Bills, and at the same time we had the estimates
and financial plans of the year to submit to Parliament.
I do maintain, above all, that, as I have already stated
in the commencement of my address to the House, with
sedition in England, incipient rebellion in Ireland, and
a convulsion in Europe, the labour of administration is
the chief business to which we ought to devote our at-
tention.—(llear, hear.) There have been moments
when every one must have felt that a slight indiscre-
tion may have provoked foreign nations—there have
been moments when a slight want of watchfulness or
care may have given an inconsiderable number of mis-
creants an opportunity of involving the country in con-
fusion. Wishing to preserve the tranquillity of Europe
—valuing peace above all price—and thinking that the
war of 1793 was unnecessary for the purpose for which
it was set on foot and maintained, we are nevertheless
prepared to devote our best energies and our constant
endeavours to the maintenance of amicable relations
with foreign countries. Valuing, as I do, our institu-
tions, and believing that they are the best adapted of
any which ever were framed for preserving the liberty
of the community, I trust that whoever may succeed us
in the task of tuturelegislaticn will have to defend, and
not to restore, the constitution of this country.—(Cheers.)
Mr.-HUME said the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli)
had been prolific in complaints. He was justified,
therefore, in asking him what he had to propose better?
The bane of this country was party and aris-
tocratic legislation, directed with the sole view
of their aggrandisement at the expense of the welfare of
the people. He lamented the breaking up of that party
which had prevented the passing of measures inimical to
the interests of the people. Until a party of the people
arose the same system of misgovernment would be

pursued.
Mr. OSBORNE wished to know if the debate was to
be resumed at six, o'clock?
Lord J. IZUSSELL said•it would be more convenient
not to renew the debate on the re-assembling of the
House ; if any Hon. Gentleman wished to speak he
would have an opportunity of doing so on the third
reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill to-morrow
(this day.)
Mr. OSBORNE then ,said that, on the one side of
the question, everything had been said by the Honour-
able Member for Buckinghamshire, and on the other by
the Noble Lord, and the debate would close like many
modern duels—both parties seemed satisfied. But there
was another party whom neither the Noble Lord nor his
Hon. Friend represented, and however able the speech
of his Hon. Friend, or however witty the speech of the
Noble Lord as to the measures of the Government, that
party—namely, the people—would look with indifference
on'the attack of his Hon. Friend or the ele:ence of the
Noble Lord. They had heard something of the fish
dinner of the Government, and he really thought the
Heuse requircd seine defence, because the Noble Lord had
said that owing to the tedious speeches of Hon. Members
the public busetess had been impeded; but it would have
been much mere apposite if his Hon. Friend had defended
the two non. Members for Stafford and Youghal, in
~teal of the house of Commons ; for, as the House was
fond of statist eel in''ormation, he would state that an
Hon. Friend of his bad calculated the speeches of 'those
lion. Members, and they amounted to five weeks of the
closeet printing—(liesr, and laughter)—speeches, too,
not trom Metropolitan Members or gentlemen represent-
ing large constituencies, but from Members for two
small bereuelte, the reputation of one of which was cur
tainly not the most brilliant.—(Hear, hear.) But with
reference to the tiAi dinner. He had the pleasure of
dining:it Greenwich a few days ago, and had some con-
versation with the waiter.—(A laugh.) He asked the
waiter how the dinner of the Alinisters went off. " Oh!
!zit.," said he, " they looked quite like a family party—
(A laugh)—but they were more moderate than the last
Alinisters."—(A laugh.) He agreed with the waiter—
and he thought the country would agree with him too—
' the Ministers were like a family party, and were mode-
rate inen,—(Langhter.) He would refer to one of
their measures, the Sugar Bill. Was there ever
a greater failure than that measure of the
great economist of the Government.—(Hear, hear.)
With reference, however, to another measure—that
of the Corrupt Practices at Elections Bill, he must say
that his Hon. Friend was too apt to presume on the ig-
norance of the House. In order to make a joke against
the present Attorney-General, his Hon. Friend stated
that the Bill was thrown out in the other House on the
motion of Lord Denman, who was Attorney-General at
the time of the Reform Bill; but his Hon. Friend was
incorrect in his titers, for Sir T. Denman was Solicitor-
General and not Attorney-General at the time to which
his Hon. Friend alluded. Upon another point he would
observe, that his lion. Friend, the Member for Mon-
trose bad, in his opinion, been guilty this session of a
great abrogation of his privileges. Formerly every in-
dividual grievance could be discussed on the motion for
reading the Order id the dly ; but at eleven o'clock at
night his Hon. Friend had moved and the House had
resolved that no mOtion for reading the orders of the
day shouldbe necessary; so that one opportunity 91
discussing such grievances was lost to the people. As to
the four budgets, to which his Honourable Friend had
referred, he himelf believed that the long odds
were that they should even yet have a fifth.—
(Great laughter.) Upon the sanitary measure he

would only say that, it the Government were sincere
in their desire to secure the health of the public, why
did they not take off the tax on soap and the window
duty? lie regretteo, however, that his lion. Friend at
the end of his brilliant speech had thought it necessary
to astonish the natives of his party, by rubbing up the

old Vauxhall transparency of traditionary influences ;
it went to ignore the existence of the people. What
was it that prevented such men as Pitt, Chatham, and
Walpole, from bringing in good measures but the oppo-
sition of those gentlemen who kept the traditionary in-
fluences of the country?—(Hear, hear.) He regretted
also that in this debate the state of Ireland had been
passed over. The Noble Lord was about to visit that
country. He (Mr. Osborne) trusted that the visit would
not of the usual character—a trumpet dinner at the
Castle in full uniform, and a return home knowing all
about Ireland.—(A laugh.) If the Noble Lord went
merely to pay such a visit, or consult with the distin-
guished individual at the head of affairs there, he might
have as much information by post.—(Hear, hear.) As
to the coercive measures they had passed for Ireland,
they might have taken credit for them if they had
passed measures of another kind. (Hear, hear.)
He would no', however, believe that the Protestant
feelings of this country were represented by ,the fierce
bigotry of those who had in that House pretended to
represent them. The Protestant party must give up for
ever the idea that the Roman Catholics had not a goo:I
right to sele-t-,,,overnment, and he hoped the Noble Lord
would, on going to that country, give effect to thosewould,
long-cherished plans of which they had heard so much,
but had seen so little. Ireland was the difficulty of the
late Government, but tenfold Was it so of the present.
They might take credit for their coercive measures, but
the time would arrive when those clouds which were
spoken of by a late Minister might appear on the horizon,
and this temporary panic (for ho could not dignify the
late movement in Ireland by the name of insurrection),
and the miserable movement of the Chartists here—he
did not refer to the Hon. Member for Nottingham (Mr.
O'Connor) who he believed was the only red republican
in the flouse-L-(A laugh)—but to those miserable car-
penters and others Why, were out of work—wouhl result
in a reaction that wonld require measures of a different
kind from the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, and all
the vulgar precedents in Downing-street, for governing
the people.
Mr. HUDSON complained of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, after he had, in June, stated that he should
content himself- with deficiency Bills, now coming for
ward and deranging the commerce and money-market of
the country by announcing his determination to take
another course. - He would take that opportunity of ob-
serving, that notwithstanding the late weather, he be-
lieved that the wheat crops were good; in fact, in the
north of Esglani he had never seen finer.
Mr. DISR AELI wished to explain, with reference to
an observation of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that
on turning to the red book he found that Sir T. Den-
man was Attorney-General at the time the Reform Bill
was passed.
The House then suspended its sitting until a Quarters
ast Six o'clock.

The SPEAKER resumed the Chair at a Quarter-past
Six o'clock.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY presented a petition from a
deputation from various English savings' banks, praying

that the provisions of the Savings'• banks Bill should be
limited to Ireland.
Mr. ANDERSON gave notice that early next session
he would move for a Select Committee to inquire into the
practicability of reducing the costs, and improving the
means of transit of the communication by steam naviga-
tion with India. particularly of that part of it which is
now maintained by the steam-vessels of the East India
Company between Bombay and Suez, and by the steam-
vessels of her Majesty between Alexandria, Malta, and
Marseill-s.
Mr. BULLER, gave notice that to-morrow he would
move for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the relief of
the poor in the large cities and towns throughout Eng-
land. He hoped lion. Gentlemen would not be alarmed
at such a notice, as his sole object was to get the Bill
printed.

TEMPLEMORE CHAPEL.
Sir J. TYRELL wished to state that since he last
addressed the House on this subject he had seen the
gentleman whose letter he had read to the House, viz.,
Major Peton. That gentleman was under the gallery
during the morning sitting. and was ready to be pro-
duced, if necessary. Ile stated that he (Sir J. Tyrell)
had greatly undersyted his case. The gentleman who
resided in the castle to which he referred was a magis-
trate of the county of Kerry, and his name was Mahony
(us we understood). On receiving a threatening notice
he called a meeting of his friends, and on their advice he
quitted the castle and went to Limerick to procure an
addition to the constabulary force, there being only eight
policemen in that district. He might further state that
Major P,ton and Mr. Mahony both saw the transaction
in which Priest Hampston was implicated. They saw
him ofepose the policemen, and heard him tell them that
if the was posted up on the chapel door it would
be torn down again. It was accordingly torn down after
the police left, and another proclamation which was
posted up was also torn down. The head of the consta-
bulary reported these things to the authorities in Dub-
lin, but no notice ha I been taken of the matter. He had
now to ask the Noble Lord whether he had received any
communication on the subject from Ireland; or whether
he (Sir J. Tyrell) was, to proceed with the case, and
produce his witnesses? He was ready to take any course
which the Noble Lord might suggest.
-Lord J. RUSSELL had not received any intelligence
from Ireland respecting this case, but he had no doubt
that if the facts happened as the Hon. Gentleman stated,
and if a❑ account of them in writing by Major Peton
was forwarded to the Lord-Lieutenant, he would con-
.sider whether it was desirable to take any steps on the
subject.
Sir J. TYRELL had brought the subject forward
to show that there was no cause for the► ridicule which

had been "paired upon his previous statement.
Lord J. RUSSELL bad never alluded to the subject
with ridicule; but he had expressed an opinion that the
letter which the Hon. Gentleman read was not intended
to be published.
PROTECTION.—THE CROPS, &c.
Mr. HUDSON said, the corn duties would expire in
February next, and it would be recollected that the
Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had expressed his
conviction that 01l protection should be taken from
the manufacturing interest as well as from agri-
culturists. He wished to ask whether in accordance
with that view, th 3 Noble Lord meant to bring in a
Bill to repeal all duties of a protecting character
that bore on the manufacturing of silks and other
articles? He would also put a question on another sub-
ject. The accounts of the crops generally, and of the
potatoes in Ireland, were exceedingly contradictory;
and he wished to know if it was possible to have some
official information laid before the House on the subject.
He did not think there was cause for alarm as regarded
the crops; and he wished to know if, in these circum-
stances, the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to
issue tenders for the unfortunate loan he had projected?
Lord J. RUSSELL said certain restrictions had been
laid on the silk and other manufactures referred to by
the Hon. Gentleman since the time when it was resolved
to take off the corn duties, and he was not disposed at
present to say that there should be an entire removal of
those duties, which were very slight, and of a very low
amount. With regard to the potato crop in Ireland, and
the crops generally, he might state that the Government
had received reports, both through the Poor-law Com-
missioners and the constabulary. Those reports were
given from week to week, but he did not think there
would be any public advantage from producing them,
because they contained accounts of a state of things that
would hardly apply at the present time. In some in-
stances where it was supposed the potato crop was gone
it had returned—(Hear, bear)—and he believed he
might say that a very considerable part of the crop ap-
peared to be good. That expectation, however, might
be disappointed, and therefore they must just wait the
course of events.—(Hear, hear.) Still he believed he
was entitled to say that the state of the crop appeared to
be more favourable now than it was a short time ago.—
(Hear, hear.) The other question of the Hon. Gentle-
man he would leave to be answered by his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Sir C BURRELL asked whether it was correct, as
had been stated, that the amount of land planted with
potatoes this year in Ireland was eight times greater
ihan in the year preceding ?
Lord J. RUSSELL believed the increase to be in the
proportion of eight to three.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in
answer to the question of the Hon. Member (Mr. Hud-
son), relative to the " loan," as he had termed it, begged
to state that he did not propose to negotiate a loan at
all. What he wanted to do was to follow the course
pursued in 1841—viz., to take power to tell stock from
time to time as eireunistanes might require. His object
was to keep up the price of stock as much as ho could;
, and he would spread the sales it was intended to effect
over a period of some months, so as not to affect the
market in any way injuriouly.—(Hear, hear.)
EAST INDIA TENURES. _

Mr. EWART, in reference to a return of the number
and nature of land tenures held by British subjects in
India, ordered on the 21st of July. asked the Right Hon.
the President of the Board of Control if there was any
likelihood of such returns being made?
Sir J. 110B110USE believed the difficulties in the
way of such a return were not likely to be overcome.
Many of the settlers in India had taken their lands, not
from the Government; but from private parties, and
the.re was no account of these purchases. He believed,
therefore, it would be next to impossible to procure a
list of them.
PROTECTION TO AGRICULTURE.
Mr. HUDSON wished to know from the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government, whether, seeing he had
no intention to abrogate the protective duties on manu-
factures, he did not think it fair that agriculturists
should have restored to them at least as great an amount.
of protection as the manufactures had? The smallest
favour would be thankfully received.—(A laugh.)
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that it was not exactly
the right way to proceed to bring on matters of this
kind in the shape of questions which might be made the
subject of debates in the House.—(Hear, hear.)
On the motion of Mr. SPOONER, the Lords' amend-
ments to the Poor Removal Bill (No. 2) were agreed to.
Colonel DUN NE gave notice that next session he
would move for a Committee of Inquiry into the working
of the Irish Poor law.
COPPER AND LEAD DUTIES BILL.

The House went intodommitteeontheCopper
and Lead Duties Bill, and the various clauses were
agreed to.
On the schedule being proposed,
Mr. HENLEY said he meant to move an amendment
on the subject of the duty. ' As the schedule stood, a
duty of Is. per ton was to be levied on all copper ore
imported. He would allow that duty to remain as ap-
plicable to all coper ore the produce of our own co-
lonies, but he would propose a higher rate of duties
on ore imported from foreign countries. The same
question was involved here as iu the sugar duties, with
reference to the encouragement given to slavery; and
he contended that copper ore from Australia, consider-
ing the great length of the voyage and other circum-
stances, could not be imported with the same advantage
as ores produced in Cuba and Chili, if the duties were
similar in each case. His amendment was, that while
the duty per ton on all copper or copper ore imparted
from our colonies should be Is., the duty per ton on
copper or copper ore imported from foreign countries
should be one guinea.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ad-
mitted that the Hon. Gentleman had very fairly raised
the question; but the point was one which had been
already settled by the House, for it had been decided
that there should be no distinction in the duty imposed
on the copper or copper ore imported, whether from the
colonies or from foreign countries.—(Hear, hear.) He
had always expressed his opinion that not only the con-
sumers but the producers in this country were benefited
by the introduction of foreign ore, as there was a
great advantage derived from mixing the two
ores together.—(Hear, hear.) There was, however,
another view of the question. Was it for the advantage
of this country that the copper which met us in the way
of competition on the continent should be smelted in
foreign countries rather than in our own? Yet that
would be the effect of preventing the importation of
foreign ores, as proposed by the Hon. Gentleman. The
export of copper had largely increased. In the four years
from 1838 Ito 1841 the unwrought copper exported
amounted to 33,000 tons, and in the four years from
1843 to 1846 to 34,000 tons, showing an increase of
1,000 tons. In the four years ending 1841, the quantity
of wrought copper exported amounted to 24,000 tons,
and in the subsequent period to 35,000 tons; showing an
increase of 11,000 tons on the last four years. The home
manufacture of copper goods had derived considerable
benefit, therefore, from the mixture of foreign ore with
the copper of this country; and it was equally for the
benefit of the British miner, smelter, manufacturer, and
artisan, that foreign ore should be introduced at a low
duty.
Mr. NEWDEG ATE was well aware that many of his
constituents in Birmingham had suffered like others in
various branches of trade ; but in the copper trade
their prosperity had lasted longer, risen higher, and
been better secured than that of most of the interests
which had been exposed to the free trade system. Eng-
land produced more than one-half the fine copper of the
world. It was hard to suppose that the course taken by
this country would affect the conduct of foreign countries
in this matter ; but though immaterial to others the
differential duty was an object to the British producer.
For the sake of the Australian colonies, also, he hoped,
the proposition of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire
would be adopted.
Mr. WY LD wished to call the attention of the
House to the fact that this was the first occasion
since the passing of the Slave Emancipation Act on
which they had seen a liberal Government putting the
miners of Cornwall in competition with the slaves of
Cuba. If the principle of putting slave labour in compe-
tition with the free labour of her Majesty's subjects
were to be adoped, a new era would commence
a new order of things would be introduced which the
whole mass of the people of England, whatever might
be their opinion in favour of free trade, would depre-
cate. He quoted Mr. Turnbull, who had been sent out