The Sun.
London, England, 1833-05-14 00:00:00

and manly. Perhaps he should prefer a diminution of the
salaries to a reduction of the number of the Bishops ; but
even that was not comparatively of great importance. The
exception to which he referred related to the tenure of the
tenants of the Bishops; and this part of the Wine held an
invasion of the sacred rights of property. He app.-et:ended
that Ministers would find themselves totally mistaken in
their calculation of the sum to be obtained by this scheme;
for it was his conviction, that a tenancy, under a lease for
20 years, renewahle on payment of a fixed fine, was as va-
luable as the perpetuity proposed to he allowed by the Bill.
The power of Bishops to grant leases for twenty.one
years was given by the 10th and llth of Charles I. ;
and the usage of nearly two centuries showed the cor-
rectness of what he had advanced. The instinces
where leases were allowed to expire were few indeed•
He contended that the value of Bishops' lands was much
overrated, and that it would he lessened instead of increased
by the present measure. Nothing was more erroneous
than the impres•ion that tenants would be benefitted
it. They would soon find out to their cost, that the
measure—particularly that part of it to which be more
immediately alluded—was anything like advantageous to
then-. The precedent about to be established was a
fearful one—it was one that tended to shake the security
of property in England as well as in Ireland. That part
of the measure would particularly affect the property of a
class of persons in Ireland, to promote the welfare of whom
it was the interest of England to tt y in every possible way.
Ile hoped that the originators of the measure would
abandon that part of it; but if they had not good sense
enough to do so, he felt confident that the House would

reject it.
An Hose. MEMBER was understood to say, that the
measure had his general support, but that he objected to
part of it, because that part of it was inconsistent with
the main principles of the Bill. The part be objected to
was that which sanctioned an alienation of church pro-
perty; for, notwithstanding the denial of the Right Hon.
Secretary for the Colonies, there was in the measure a
sanctioning of the alienation of church property. Whilst
he admitted the power of • that House with respect to
church property, he thought that it should be especially
applied to church purposes. One of the purposes to which
it ought to be applied, and for which it was originally
destined, was education ; and few countries more than
Ireland required that education should be encouraged. It
was the ignorance of the people of that country that gave
so much hold to agitation ; and no one could read the
report of the Irish Commissioners without being con-
vinced, that the cause of the increase of crime in Ireland
was the ignorance of the people. Even the Hon. Member
for Dublin would allow, that the crimes of a population
were generally proportionate with their ignorance.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that he was not quite so sure
of the ignorance of the people of Ireland. Whether ig-
norance did or did not prevail there, it was certain that
it did to a very large extent elsewhere, and he seldom
saw so many proofs of it as he did when he heard Hon.
Members talk about Ireland. He denied that the crimes
1 of a country were in proportion with the ignorance of its
population, and be was supported in his opinion by the
authority of a late number of the Edinburgh Review.
He saw in a statistical calculation published in that
journal, stating that there were more poor children
i enjoy-
ing the blessing of education in Ireland, than n that
country so vaunted, and so favoured as to education—
Scotland. Besides, if the statistical accounts of crimes in
the French departments, drawn up by the desire of the
Government of that country, were consulted, the Hon.
Member who had last spoken would find that the progress
of crime (lid not tally with the ignorance of the depart-
ments; for that the proportion of crime with the inhabi-
tants was greater in those departments which were con-
sidered the most enlightened. With respect to the present
measure, as he said on a former occasion that it had his
approbation, he would now state why he approved of it
no longer, lest he should be accused of incon-istency and
of changing his sentiments without a sufficient reason.
The fact was, the Noble Lord opposite had practised a de-
lusion upon him when he said that the vestry cess was to be
entirely abolished. The Noble Lord might have done so
unwittingly, but the Noble Lord must still be aware that
he (Mr. O'Connell) spoke sincerely when he mentioned
that lie laboured under a delusion upon that point. The
amount of the cess was stated to be between 60,000/. and
80,000/. ; in the newspaper reports he saw it to be
69,000/. This was to he done away with ; and when the
Noble Lord stated the yearly value of Bishops' property to
be 700,0001., lie (Mr. O'Connell) asked the Noble Lord
whether it was too much to expect that the people of Ireland
should be relieved of their burdens at the rate of about 10
per cent. upon that property? On consideration he had
d!scovered, that the relief, instead of amounting to 70,000/.,
would not amount to more than 10,000/. This was the
reason why he had changed his opinion with respect to the
measure. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then went
through several returns of vestry cess paid in parishes in
Ireland, and contended that the several expensive items
he mentioned would still remain, though it had been said
that the cess was virtually abolished. The cess, so far as
it regarded the repairs of churches, was done away wi.h,
but it would still be levied for several other purposes. The
present measure would only double that vexatious tax.
It did not, in any way, repeal the Act of George 11. nor
the 7th of George IV., which set up select vestry cess, and
by which it could be extended beyond church repairs.
He regretted that the measure only barely touched upon a
principle, without completely embracing it, and the only
good that he saw in it was, that in recognising legislative
interference, it gave to that House a control over church
property. So far it had his approbation, but that appro-
bation did not go one inch farther.
Lord ALTHORP said that the Hon. and Learned
Member for Dublin had contended that the vestry cess in
Ireland would not be abolished by the Bill introduced by
the Government. He (Lord Althorp) could only say that
the intention was to abolish it, and that if the Hon. and
Learned Member could point out an instance in which
that was not done, lie could assure him the Government
would make such alteration in the clause as would have
the effect of abolishing it. Since the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had spoken, however, he (Lord Althorp) had
been assured by an Hon. and Learned Gentlemen near him
that the clause, as it at present stood, would have the effect
of abolishing all those charges.—(Hear, hear.) The
intention was to benefit the people of Ireland by relieving
them from the vestry cess ; and if the clause which was
to confer the benefit were still found to be defective, they
were willing to make the required amendment. The Hon.
and Learned Member for Dublin then complained that the
Bill did , not go so far as he wished.—(Elear, hear.) He
(Lord Alth.rp) had no doubt that it did not go so far as
the inclination of the lion. and Learned Member would
wish—(Hear, hear)—and he would say more, it was
never intended that it should go so far.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) lie said further, that it contained many clauses
which were of no consequence to a large majority
of the people of Ireland. It was true, as argued by
the Honourable and Learned Member that it was a
matter of indifference to the Catholics of Ireland
how the revenues of the church were distributed
among the clergy; but he should recollect that
this was a Bill intended fur the reform of the Protestant
church, and that it was iherefore their business to remove
the abuses of the Protestant church, but they were not
obliged to go to the Catholics for advice how that church
would be best arranged.—( Hear, hear.) He would new
beg to say a few words in answer to the speech of the
Hon. Member for Roscommon. When that lion. Gen-
tleman asserted that this Bill would do an injury to the
tenants of the church, he (Lord Althorp) could assure
him that it was not intended to do them an injury, but, en
the contrary, it was intended to do them a benefit. The
Hon. Member had said that the leases held by tho-e
tenants were equal to a perpetuity. Now he (Lord
Althorp) could assure the House that at present there
were 45 Bishops' leases of which only ten years remained,
ar.d be would ask if those leases could be considered equal
to a perpetuity ?—(Hear, hear.) As far as he (Lord
Althorp) could understand the tenor of the Hon. Mem-
ber's argument, lie appeared to contend that the continued
renewal of a lease was more valuable than a perpetuity by
bail a year's purchase.—(Hear, and a laugh.) He would
now say a few words with regard to the observations of the
Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin.
That Hon. and Learned Member said that the revenues of
the suppressed bishoprics should be left with the
Bishops who were retained. if the Honourable and
Learned Member thought the revenues of the bishop-
rics which remained too small, he (Lord Althorp)
could understand why the revenues of two Bishops should
be given to one ; but as that was not alleged, he could not
see the advantage of that arrangement ; and he thought it
would be much better to apply those revenues to the ge-
neral purposes of the church of Ii eland. The Hon. and
Learned 11•Ieuiber objected also to the abolition of the Board
of First bruiser, and to the manner in which the first fruits
were to be administered, He said that it was degrading
to the church that the Board pfCommissioners who were
tAoliatiawyrpet)he administration of them should be composed
partly of ecelesiastics and partly of laymen. Now, he (Lord
thought it of great importance that those etn-
liloz ied n that arduous and important duty should be per-
. of activity and industry; and that such a duty should
not be intrusted to those persons alone Who could not be
utppornoptocr. attend,\‘iie nbuot,eyni ought
~
doto so
tthatcolraunseot
lieiswtoluleidy
Ctlailolulh
be wady to prove that there was nothing in it deserving o'
the censure which had been lavished upon it hy.the Pon.
and Learned Gentlemen. The Noble Laid concluded 1,7

saying, that he had had no intention of taking part in the
discussion that evening ; and that his only reason for
rising was, because he had considered the observations
made as necessary to be answered.
Mr. GOULBURN thought that the Bill was intended
entirely for the advantage of the aristocracy. He objected
to tie measure principally for what it did not contain. It
contained no clause for the protection of the Protestant
faith, or for the promotion of its growth, and in that
particular he considered the Bill as very defective. It did
not promote that for which the church of Ireland was ori-
ginally instituted, namely, the promulgation and extension
of the principles of the Protestant religion.—(Hear,
hear.) He did not object to the removal of the vestry
cess; but what he complained of was the manner in
which it was proposed to be removed. The Noble Lord
seemed to have forgotten that there were two kinds of cess
in Ireland. There was one kind laid on exclusively by
Protestants, and another which was laid on by the inha-
bitants of the parish generally, whether Protestants or
Catholics. The first kind was intended for the mainte-
nance and repairs of the churches, and of the churches
exclusively ; but the other was intended for the payment
of the salaries of organists, all the expense of singing in
the churches, the repairs and care of the churchyard,
and these were points which were eternal topics of
discussion and dispute.—(Hear.) There was not a more
fruitful source of dispute in Ireland th in the churchyards,
and he (Mr. Goulburn) objected to laying the whole ex-
perie, and the whole odium connected with them, upon
the clergyman. Then with regard to that part of the mea-
sure which proposed the. abolition of ten out of the twenty-
two Bishops of Ireland, he would say, that if the hierarchy
of Ireland were reduced to twelve, it would not be able to
perform those duties which ought to devolve upon it.—
(Hear, hear.) He objected to the Ecclesiastical Commis•
sion, because it appeared to him as ir, by it, they were ap-
pointing a Commission for the purpose of taking care that
religious duties should not be performed in Ireland.—
(Hear, hear.) He approved of that part of the measure
which broke up great and united parishes, and gave each
parish a separate incumbent.—(Hear, hear.) He objected
strenuously to that part of the Bill which proposed that
where there bad been no service performed for a certain
number of years in a parish, it should be in the power of
the Commissioners to decide whether any clergyman should
be appointed to that parish in future. In his opinion, the
prosperity of Ireland wholly depended on the spread of the
Protestant religion there; as that spread, so would vice
and misery disappear.
Mr. HUME was only sorry that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had not taken this view of the evils of Ireland
when he had sat on the other side of the House.—(A
laugh.) It was a most unfortunate' thing, that at a time
when he had it in his power to remedy all the evils of
which he now complained—such as non-residence, want
of schools, and so on, it had been found utterly impossible
to open his eyes to these evils—it was only since he had
left office that he bad become cognizant of them.—(Hear,
hear, and a laugh.) Now, in his (Mr. Hume's) opinion,
there would he no peaca in Ireland till the Protestant esta-
blishment was wholly put down.—(Oh, oh ; Hear, hear.)
For the last hundred years we had been trying, in every
imaginable way, to make the Catholics Protestants ; but
experience fully showed, that so far from succeeding, Pro-
testantism had been decreasing day by day ; and were we
now to authorize a crusade of another hundred years in
the desperate attempt to do that which had so completely
been shown to be impracticable?—(Hear, hear.) He
would agree with an Hon. and Learned Member, that
this was a Bill which would give satisfaction to neither
Catholics nor high churchmen ; but he had different rea-
sons from the Hon. and Learned Member for this belief.
He (Mr. H.) did not find fault with the Bill because it
put down ten Bishops ; he found fault with it because
it did not put down twenty-two.—(Oh, oh, and Hear,
hear.) It had been demonstrated by the other party
themselves, that one Bishop in Ireland would quite serve
every purpose ; for, according to their own statement, one
of our Bishops—the Bishop of Exeter—had, within twenty
or thirty, as many benefices (1,200) under his pastoral
care, as all the Bishops in Ireland put together ; therefore,
according to their own scale, one Irish Bishop was quite
enough.—(Hear, hear.) In his own mind, one was too
many—(Oh, oh; a laugh, and Hear, hear)—but he was
reckoning at their scale-. In fact, Government had clearly
never intended that there should be such a herd of Irish
Bishops, or they would all have been allowed their seats in
the House of Lords ; whereas there were only four there.
An Hon. Member had talked a good deal about some mon-
ster that seemed craving for everything. He knew of no
monster to whom this would apply, except it were public
opinion.—(Great laughter.) Yes, public opinion de-
manded every thing—and public opinion ruled, or ought
to rule, every thing ; and it was the public opinion that
the Irish church was nothing but a sinecure church.—
(Oh, oh ; Hear, hear.) He did not mind Hon. Gentle-
men's crying out Oh, oh ! lie did not appeal to them—(A
laugh)—but he appealed to the body of the people, who,
in 99 out of every 100, declared that church to be produc-
tive of the greatest evils—a sinecure—and that it ought to
be done away with.—( Hear.) While the Catholic was
called upon to support the Ministers of another religion,
there would be no peace in Ireland. --(Hear, hear.)
Moreover he would have the church lands sold out and
out—(Hear)—and the produce of the sale applied by the
Legislature to such purposes as should be considered most
adapted for general benefit. As to the proposed C ,m-
-mission, in his opinion it would never produce those bene-
ficial results which the real friends of both countries
so ardently desired. He was for following up th's church
reform. He would go, therefore, with the Noble Lord as
far as he chose to go ; and when the Noble Lord would go
no further, he hoped somebody else would take up the sub.
ject and proceed with it,
Mr. G. VERNON looked for a great improvement in
the Protestant establishment from the operation of the
proposed Bill. He could by no means regard the Pro-
testant establishment in Ireland in the view taken of it by
the Hon. Member for Middlesex, who considered it as the
source of all evil ; but he would deprive it of those quali-
ties which rendered it less operative for good. No man
could be more sensible than he was of the value of the
church establishment. His personal predilection and his
personal duties must naturally induce him to regard it
with favour. But however much he respected the insti-
tution of the higher orders of the church, he could never
admit that the influence and importance of the episcopacy
depended on its numerical amount. Those who talked of
the number of acres in a diocese seemed to think that the
duties of a Bishop were those of a surveyor. While he
was in favour of the Bill generally, he supported the intros
duction into the last clause of the words " for ecclesiastical
purposes."
Mr. WYNN contended that the adoption of the mea-
sure would be tantamount to a declaration that it was no
longer the wish of Parliament to encourage and maintain
the Protestant re'igion in Leland. The two principal
objections which he entertained against the measure were
—the reduction of the number of the Bishops, and the
application of church property to purposes not ecclesiastical.
Sr R. BATESON slid, the present proposition must
lead to the destruction of the Protestant church in Ire-
land. He objected to the lay commissioners in the board,
and thought the board ought to be wholly episcopal. As
to doing away the church cess, he should be happy to
concur in any measure by which the objections to the
existing system might be removed. Ile strongly objected
to laying a tax on so low a rate of clerical income as 2001.
a year. In his opinion the tax, too, ought to be imposed
on the lay impropriators equally with clergymen.
Mr. ANDREW JOHNSTONE, though a church re-
former, and anxious for the removal of abuses, could not
assent to this Bill. The abolition of vestry cess appeared
to him highly objectionable; the vestry cess he looked
upon as a burden on the land, and if the vestry cess were
to cease, it would have the effect only of adding so much
mote to the estates of the landed proprietors --(Hear, and
No, no.) He was a Presbyterian, and it might, there-
fore, be thought strange that be should, as he did, object
to the reduction of the number of Bishops in Ireland. In
his opinion, they ought to be increased.—(Laughter and
cheers.) He considered that Ireland was a fair field for
episcopal Bishops to labour in.
Mr. SHAW wished to explain a misapprehension of
the Right Hon. Secretary for the Colonies on the last
night this subject was discussed. He was represented by
that Eight Hon. Gentleman as having stated, that if this
Bill had been brought forward by his friends on that side
of the House, lie would have supported it ; but having
been brought forward by the other side, b 2 atiould oppose
it. The Right Hon. Gentleman was wholly mistaken.
With regard to another statement of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, that the Primate of Ireland had suggested the
reduction of the number of bishoprics, he begged, on the
part of the prelate, to deny that such was the case, and he
thought it would be prudent of the Right Hon. Secretary
to be a little more cautious, for these assertions frequently
found their way where the subsequent contradiction never
reached,—(Hear,)
Mr. STANLEY explained. He had so understood
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ; hut it was the farthest
from Isis wish to misrepresent what had been said by him.
With regard to the Primate, he had since ascertained that
it was a misstatement, though not to any very
great extent, as he had stated he had frequent dis•
cussions with the Primate on the provisions of the Bill,
and the impression en his mind was, that the Primate had
suggested that the least objectionable means of obtaining
reform was to reduce the number of Bishops. The Pri-
mate had, however, informed him, and, of course, he

believed it, that the suggestion came from himself, and not
from the Printate.—(A laugh. ) Such was the case. The
Primate had certainly admitted with great candour, that
if this fund were to he raised, the least objectionable mode
wou'd be by reducing the number of Bishops.—(
Hear.)
He was, however, exceedingly sorry that he should in the
1 slightest degree misrepresent a Prelate for whom be had
such high respect. He had intended to set himself right
with the House on the first occasion, and he thanked te
Hon. and Learned Member for the opportunity thus
afforded him.—(Hear.)
Mr. E. PETRE supported the Bill, though he ob-
jected to some of its details. He particularly wished the
fund to be applied to some ecclesiastical purposes.—(Hear,
hear.) It was with no small astonishment, however,
that he had noticed the course pursued by H. and
Learned Member for Dublin—he, too, who w the
as so oncritical
upon the conduct of others.—(Hear, hear.) He formerly
supported the measure, and yet on the present occasion he
bad departed from his formerly declared opinions, and
joined an opposition which, in his opinion, he had better
I have left alone.
b Mr. CHRISTMAS contended, that in the proposed
measure there was nothing like a sufficient provision for

the curates.
Mr. LALOR asserted that it did not command the ap-
probation of any party i❑ Ireland.
Lord CASTLEREAGH was of opinion, that it was
mere folly to talk of settling the Irish church question
when there was no Secretary for Ireland in the House.
The question was then put, and the House went into
Committee.
Mr. RUTHVEN rose, and said a few words (as we
understood him) on the Preamble of the Bill, on which—
Lord ALT HORP moved that the Chairman should re-
port progress, and ask leave to sit again on Wednesday,
which was agreed to.
GENERAL REGISTRATION BILL.

This Bill went through a Committee.
The report was brought up and ordered to be received
to-morrow (this day).
The Inheritance Bill went through the Committee.
In a Committee on the Dower Bill, Mr. BLAMIRE
proposed an amendment in order that the law might re-
main unaltered as far as related to the dower of widows
under the wills of their husbands.
Yt
For the amendment
Against it 2S
'Majority
Mr. ELLICE moved that the House do resolve itself
into a Committee of the whole House, upon the plan for
the Abolition of Slavery in the West Indies.—Ordered.
The other orders of the day were gone through, and
the House adjourned at three o'clock.

LIST OF THE MINORITY
OF FIFTY-FIVE (TELLER. INCLUDED), WHO VOTED FOR MR. HUME'S
MOTION ON FRIDAY LAST,
To reduce the vote of 103,3181., proposed for Yeomanry is Great
Britain and Ireland, to one-half of that sum, or 51,6591.
For the Reduction
056 51 Majority 202
Against it..

Total in the House.
ENGLAND.
Aglionby, H. A.—Cockermouthl
Beauclerk, Aubrey Wm.—East

311

------ - -
Warburton, H.—Br idport
Wason, Rigby—lpswich
Wood, M.—London

Surrey
Bewes, T.—Plymouth
Briscoe, J. I.—East Surrey
Brotherton, Joseph—Salford
Chichester, J. P. B.—Barnstaple
Divett, E.—Exeter
Faithful, George—Brighton
Fancourt, Major—Barnstaple
Fielden, John—Oldham
Fryer, R.—Wolverhampton
Grote, George—London
Guise, Sir B. W.—East Glouces-
tershire
Hall, Benjamin—Monmouth
Hawes, Benjamin—Lambeth
Hutt, Wm.—Hull
Lennox, Lord J.—West Sussex
Lloyd, J. H.—Stockport
Molesworth, Sir William—East
Cornwall
Parrott, Jasper—Totness
Potter, lt.—Wigan
Rumillv, J.—Bridport
Scholefield, J.—Birmingham
Seale, J. ll.—Dartmouth
Tooke, W.—Truro
Trelav;ney, W. L. S.—East
Cornwall
Vincent, Sir F.—St. Albans
Walter, John—Berkshire

SCOTLAND.
Gillon, W. D.—Falkirk, &c.
Oliphant, Laurence—Perth
Maxwell, Sir John—Paisley
Oswald, R. A.—Ayrshire
Oswald, James—Glasgow
Pringle, R.—Selkirkshire
Wallace, R.—Greenock

IRELAND.
Blake, Martin—Galway
Fitzgerald, Thomas—Louth
lor, Patrick—Queen's Co.
Macnamara, W. N.—Clare Co.
O'Brien, Cornelius—Clare
O'Connell, Daniel—Dublin
O'Connell, Charles—Kerry
O'Connell, John—Youghall
O'Connell, Morgan—Meath
O'Connor, Fergus—Cork Co.
Roche, W.—Limerick
Ronayne, D.—Clonmell
Ruthven, E. S.—Dublin
Ruthvoi, Ed.—Kildare
Vigors, N. A.—Carlow

TELLER.
Hume, Joseph—Middlesex

THE ASSESSED TAXES.

-
GREAT MEETING IN ST. LUKE'S
PARISH.
Last evening the parishioners of St. Luke's assembled
very numerously, in the open space, in front of the work-
house in the City-road, " to consider of the measures pro-
per to be adopted to insure the repeal of the duties on
houses and windows, in consequence of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters having totally disappointed the hopes of the coun-
try." The requisition, signed by the churchwardens,
after so stating the purpose of the meeting, concluded as
follows :—" Inhabit arts of St.:Luke's, the interest of the
country imperatively requires that every man should now
be prepared to do his duty."
The chair was taken by Mr. MORELAND, the senior
churchwarden.
The sentiments of the meeting were expressed in a se-
ries of resolutions to the following effect:.--That his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, by pertinaciously adhering to obnoxious
taxes, for the purpose of maintaining enormously large
naval and military establishments, and the payment of un-
necessary pensions and sinecures, have evinced a disposi-
tion to perpetuate the burdens of the people, and totally
disappointed the hopes of the country. That the pressure
of taxation on the middle and industrious classes in that
parish had been for a long period excessively great, and as
a proof of their inability to pay the assessed taxes, it was
stared, that at the first general election for the borough of
Finsbury, thousands were obliged to expose their poverty
to the world, by the non-payment of those imposts, to the
injury of their credit as tradesmen, and the forfeiture of
their elective franchise ; and finally, that by proper re-
trenchment, the house and window tales might be repealed
without a commutation of taxes.
A deputation was appointed to wait on Lord Althorp, to
urge his Lordship to allay, by timely concession, the in-
creasing hostility to his Majesty's present Ministers, and
avert the consequences that were otherwise to be appre-
hended. The meeting then separated.