The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-22 00:00:00

what he chose to terra " his public life" when
he aga.in reteirned to "public life" to organize
this system, and when he passed in review at successive
intervals persons who, if not possessed of arms, had
been instructed in training, and told that it was nothing,
unless they had arms to use—when he observed all this,
was there any difficulty in seeing the object in view?—
(Hear.) He therefore said that the notoriety of the case
was made out, and when the Noble Lord made his mo-
tion for copies of the reports from stipendiary magis-
trates, he did not object to it, but he wished him to sub-
stitute " extraots of dispatches," because they included
a great deal of matter which it would not be fit to lay
before the public—(Hear, hear)—and which would
weaken the case and defeat the object of the Govern-
ment if published. With regard to the powers which
existed, the Noble Earl at the head of the Government
in Ireland would not, he was sure, be suspected of
not giving effect to those powers—powers which
were more usefully employed than the Noble Earl
opposite
seemed disposed to think; for when he said
they had not been so effectual in procuring the
possession of arms, he must not forget that the power
exercised led to the abandonment of the open use of
arms, which had been productive of the best effect. The
Noble Earl (Clarendon) attached the greatest import-
ance to the Act to which he referred. He (the Marquis of
Lansdowne) knew he had abstained as long as he pos-
sibly could from applying it to the great cities in Ire-
land' and particularly to Dublin.—(Hear, hear.) He
also knew that his Noble Friend thought that the time
had now come when the Act must be strictly enforced,
and it would be with all that vigilance and sagacity
which characterised his Noble Friend. Other Acts of
Parliament applicable to the present emergency had been
revived by the Government of Ireland, one of which
against training had already been brought into operation
with very good effects, and as it was about to expire, the
Government would call upon the Legislature
to renew it during the present session.—(Hear,
hear.) He could not agree with the Noble Earl
in thinking that the trial by jury was so ineffective
in Ireland as he had represented it to be—more particu-
larly when he recollected the courage and honesty with
which the jurors empanelled during the recent trials for
murder had discharged the functions that devolved on
them. The conduct of these jurors entitled them to re-
ceive the thinks of their country, and it was only justice
to those who were ealled upon to assist at the cases at
Limeriesk, to state that not a single witness shrank from,
giving his evidence in a truthful manner, and thus aid-
ing the cause of justice. He entirely coincided in the
opinion expressed by the Noble Earl, that the clubs ex-
ercised a power of intimidation in Ireland over all
classes, high and low, rich and poor; and notices were
universally spread abroad by these associations that they
considered all who did not join them, and act in concert
with them, to be their enemies, thus abusing what they
termed liberty, and rendering that term more hateful
than the worst despotism of an absolute Government.
Was not this a state of things that ought to be grappled
with by the Government?—(Hear, hear.) Did it not
call for the exercise of all the powers of Government?—
(Hear, hear.) And he would say that his Noble Friend
at the head of the Ministry was prepared to use those
powers, supported as he hoped he would be by both
Houses of Parliament —(Hear, hear.) He knew it had
been said, why did not the Government wait? Why do
to-day what might be put off till to-morrow? In an-
swer to these objections he could only express his belief
that they had arrived at a state of things, when any
loss of time would be a certain loss of power.—(Hear,
hear.) If the power of the Government were now
exerted, so far from tending to a loss of life or an im-
patrment of liberty, the very reverse would be the effect
of prompt measures.—(Hear.) Under these circumstances
the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had informed the Go-
vernment that the time had arrived when it was
necessary to arm him with the power of detaining all
persons suspected of treasonable or seditious ietentions
or opinions. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) thought
that this was a power very justly called for by his Noble
Friend, because the exercise of it would strike at the
leaders of the insurrectionary parties in Ireland.--(Hear,
hear.) The condition of the population of that coun •
try ought to be taken into consideration. "hey had
strong tendencies to commit excesses. They wore
marked by an incapacity to judge correctly of their
own condition. They were deprived of the advantages
of having capital employed amongst them, and when,
in addition to all these characteristics, ho found that
they had recently suffered severely under a dispensation
of Providence which had inflicted the horrors of famine
, upon them, he felt that there were some excuses for the
population being excited into manifestations of sedition,
and led away by their teachers and orators. But as
for those leaders and teachers, who knew the falsity of
the statements which they uttered, and who had taken
advantage of the sufferings caused by famine to turn the
minds of the people against the Government, he felt that
for inch-leaders no pity ought or could be entertained,
and it was against them that the whole power of the
Government add of the Parliament would be fairly and
justly levellede—(Hear.) He was, therefore, of opinion
that the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland was justified in
making the demand which he had done, and he trusted
the Parliament would manifest no other feeling on the
subject than that they trusted the power so asked for in
safe hands—(Hear)—and, also, that his Noble Friend,
having only asked for it at the last moment, was all the
more likely to exercise it prudently and with modera-
tion. For the reasons, therefore, that he had stated, he
hoped the Noble Earl would withdraw his motion, as the
production of the correspondence would only lead to bad
results, and could do no good. Before he sat down he
must state on the authority of his Noble Friend (the
Earl of Clarendon") that, although there were individual
instances to the contrary, the conduct of the great por-
tion of the Roman Catholic priesthood in Ireland had
been most meritorious—(Hear)—and they had exerted
themselves most effectually in opposing the progress of
sedition and inflammation—(Hear, hear)—and he might
add, that many cases might be cited where they had
made effectual exhortations to their flocks to maintain
peace and to prevent the contagion of treason and dis-
content from reaching them. And these facts his Noble
Friend was most anxious should be publicly stated and
universally known.
Lord BROUGHAM said that he was one of not a
few Members of their Lordships' House who were dis-
posed to ask the Government why they had waited so
long. Now, however, after the delay of six months,
they were prepared to act, and he cordially approved of
their intention, only hoping it was not adopted too late
to be effectual. The enly way to avoid the unhappy
state of things observable in a neighbouring country
was to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland, or,
in other words, to give the authorities there the power
to imprison persons without having any sworn informa-
tions against them. By so doing the Government would
have the power of imprisoning the leaders of the
sedition, and thus those would be taken away in whose
absence the insurrection could not proceed. He would
call their Lordships' attention to a statement made
by a person of high legal authority, who gave it
as his opinion that the suspension of the Habeas
Corpus Act was a remedy for the evil, inasmuch as
it tended to cure and not to irritate. He had been told
that he was at liberty to cite the name of the late Mr.
O'Connell as that of the authority to whom he referred,
but he had declined to do so unless the conversation
wherein he made the assertion was committed to paper
by the very respectable person who had held it with him.
This had been done, and he would now proceed to read
the record of the conversation. The Noble Lord then
read a statement to the effect that about three weeks be-
fore Sir Robert Peel's Coercion Bill of 1845 was brought
in, the late Daniel O'Connell deliberately stated to the
writer, in the presence of a Learned Doctor and another
gentleman, who was since a Member of Parliament,
whose names he (Lord Brougham) would, together with
his informant's, communicate to the Noble Marquis, that
in his opinion the true remedy and the safe and constitu-
tional course to pursue in regard to Limerick was to resort
to what was commonly called the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act, as that would cure and not irritate.
And Mr. D. O'Connell also then stated that if Sir R.
Peel made out a case, he would support him in suspend-
ing the Habeas Corpus Act, provided he (Sir R. Peel)
produced at the same time to the House those measures
of relief and justice to Ireland which he (Sir R. Peel) had
so often promised to give to the people of that country.
In that case, Mr. D. O'Connell said he would give his.
hearty suppor.
t to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus,
but he would oppose any Curfew Bill, as that would irri-
tate and not cure the malady. The writer proceeded to
state that, with Mr. D. O'Connell s permission, he
h aNdopbul et
this conversation on paper and shown it to Sir R. Peel and
Lord J. Russell. Such testimony, continued the
Lord (Brougham), was of no slight value in support of the
measure proposed by the Lord- Lieutenant of Ireland and I
her Majesty's Government. He himself was, in com-
mon with the Noble Marquis opposite, a firm unalter-
able friend to liberty, and it was because he was so
that he detested anarchy, and such scenes as were now
witnessed in Ireland. He hoped and trusted that the
Noble Lord and his colleagues would not. forget one
ht
sentence uttered by his Noble Friend near m, namely,
that the peril was great and immediate. Let the
measure be also immediate in its enactment,
believed
so that
the remedy might be quickly applied. 'Ho
that the Government could not take a wiser or more
regular course than to suspend the standing orders
and pass the Bill at once. Those who wished to see
an outbreak in Ireland would avail themselves of the
delay, however short, which might intervene between
the present time and the passing of a Bill into law.
Lord STANLEY said, that however great the alarm
might be which was created by the knowledge that the
Government was going to resort to strong measures,
there was no right-thinking man in the country who
would not cordially rejoice at hearing the announcement
made by her Majesty's Ministers, and if there was any
drawback to that feeling of satisfaction it was not on
aecount of the promptness of the determination of the
Government, but rather because of the delay that had
taken place in coming to it. For the measure about to
.be proposed was not a lose of power but a means of
strength—and had it been proposed some months ago,
the state of Ireland would not be so dangerous as it now
was. He did not know if the powers asked for would
, be sufficient for the purpose, but at all,events they were
of a right class—tor thereby the Government
would be enabled to strike the proper persons. He did
not desire to see the victims of their own credulity sub-
jected to the penalties attached to the law. He rather
hoped and expected to see those who had so basely prac-
tised on the credulity of the people, and who had for their
own personal purposes misled them, first struck at by the
authorities. It was those who incited others to sedition
and treason, and yet who had knowledge enough to en-
able them to keep within the letter of the law, that ought
to pay the penalty of their wickedness. He did not wish
to see them punished for the sake of vengeance, but for
that of example and for the good of the community. On
them he trusted severity would fall in all the weight of
the law, and he also hoped that no delays would be per-
mitted to retard the progress of the measure ; if such. de-
lay should be permitted to take place the sword of justice
would fall without effect. If the course pursued in for-
mer trials for sedition was again followed, it would be