The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-22 00:00:00

22,

of the national system of education most extraordinary state- •
thents had been made at different periods. There were cer-
tain dignitaries of the Church who, to use the words of Mr.
Burke, never manifested any particular zeal for religion
except when they desired to wound the feelings of their
opponents. The Bishop of Cashel, for example, had stated at
the Rotunda at Liverpool—and he had repeated the state-
ment at the Hanover-square Rooms in April last—that at
the last special commission for Limerick, six men were con-
victed who had been educated in the national schools.
He had also stated that at the special commission at
Clonmel eleven were convicted who were young, the greater
proportion of whom, he said, were probably taught in the
national schools—( Hear, hear)—and singularly enough, he
added, that eighteen were convicte:, eleven of whom were
educated under the national system. Considering the state-
tnent with respect to Clonmel very extraordinary, he (Mr.
B. Osborne) had been at the trouble of making some inqui-
ries in the neighbourhood; and he would now state the re-
putt. It appeared that in the gaol of Clonmel, no account
,was kept of the schools in which the prisoners had been edu-
cated, and from the inquiries which he made, he had found
that so far from its being true that eleven of the prisoners
convicted had been educated in the national schools, only
one of them had ever been in a school, and that oils
'only for about ten days.—(Hear, hear.) The exemplary
IBishop who had made this statement had the presentation
Ito thirty-four very large livings in his diocese, while
!the Crown had the patronage of only three, one
of the number being a mere curacy. Such being
:the case, the Bishop had not promoted a single clergyman
who was friendly to the national system, though there were
'many exemplary men in his diocese; yet he did not scruple
to complain that the Crown did not present the opponents of
that system to the livings in its gift. The Bishop had, in-
' deed, appointed Mr. Dalton, the secretary of the Protestant
Association of Exeter Hall, who had never received a colle-
giate education, to a living which was founded for the en-
, couragement of such education.—(Hear, hear.) That pre.-
late, however, did not stand alone. In the diocese of Fearns,
where there were forty-four livings in the presentation of the
bishop, not a single friend to the national system of educa-
tion had been collated to a living. If, as was stated by the
Hon. Member for the University of Dublin, there was no
such thing as scriptural education in Ireland, it was the
fault of those who entertained the opinions of the Hon. Gen-
tleman and his colleague. He called upon the House not to
listen to the suggestion of the Hon. Member, or to sanc-
tion a course of proceeding which originated with a miserable
faction. _ _ _

Mr. NAPIER traced the progress of education in Ireland
from the union to 1831, when the national system was esta-
blished, at which period there were, he said, 30,000 Roman
Catholics attending the schools in hich the Scriptures were
read, and which the Roman Catholic clergy were then stre-
nuously opposing. He contended that the system had been
founded on the principle of concession to the Roman Catho-
lic clergy, and of objection to the Protestant Church,
thus giving a preference which was not conformable to the
established religion of the State. So that by the introduction
of the National Board of Education, they raised up two sys-
tems and two sets of men antagonistically and conscientiously
opposed the one to the other. That being so, he must say
he considered it most unfair to refuse to those Protestant
clergy who were conscientiously opposed to the national
system any aid out of the public funds. It was no answer
on the part of the Government to say :they would grant
that aid to those who assisted the national system, because
that would be asking the men to violate their consciences,
'ann to act in opposition to their firm belief in the right of pri-
vate judgment as applied to the word of God. One of the
best remedial measures for Ireland was to extend the advan-
tages of education in that part of her Majesty's dominions;
and with that view he supported the proposition of his Hon.
Colleague.—( Hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said—Sir, if I do not enter at
length on the present occasion into this question, the House
will readily conceive the reason why I decline to do so. This
is a system which, as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman has
truly stated, was established by Lord Stanley in 1832, and
it has since that time received the support of successive
Governments. Having been established by Lord Stanley,
it was continued by the Administration of Sir Robert Peel,
who refused to make any alteration in respect to this
grant, and it has gone on to the present time increasing
in the number of its schools and in the number
of its scholars. There were at first about 1,000 schools,
'• and 100,000 scholars; there are now about 4,000 schools,
and 400,000 scholars.—(Cheers.) It is, therefore, I think,
not to be considered, as some Honourable Gentlemen who
have spoken to-night would appear desirous of considering
it, as an entirely new question, now brought forward for
the first time by the Government; but it is a system which,
having been proposed by Lord Stanley, at first as an experi-
ment, has been found even more successful than could have
been expected, has extended itself very much in Ireland, and
has been of very great use in that country.—( Hear, hear,
and cheers.) It is in these circumstances, therefore, that I
say that we have very sufficient grounds for resisting any
modification or alteration of that system.—(Cheers.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Napier) stated that be-
fore the plan of Lord Stanley existed, the Kildare-place
Society was in operation, which proceeded upon the prin-
ciple of introducing the Bible as a school-book without notes
or comments. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated
truly that I am one of those who in this country approve of
such a system, and that I belong to a society which takes
that broad rule as its guide. I concur entirely in that prin-
ciple. I think in a Protestant country, where a great ma-
jority of the people are Protestants, it is of the greatest bene-
fit to be able to enact that the Bible should be used as a
school-book. But this system has been opposed by a ma-
jority of the clergymen of the Church of England, on the
ground that it is quite necessary to add the catechism and
liturgy ofthe Church ; and yet, however the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman and the Church Educational Society may approve
of it in Ireland, it is entirely opposed to the views of the
great majority of the Church of England. But this plan,
which is opposed By the majority of the clergymen, on ac-
count of the exclusion of the catechism and liturgy, would,
if their wishes were acceded to, exclude the Protestant Dis-
senters of this country. This is the plan which lam in fa-
vour of in this country, but the adoption of which in Ire-
land would exclude the great proportion of Roman Catholics
in that country.—(Hear, hear.) lam in principle for that
plan which in practice is most successful—(Cheers)—for the
best education which can be given to the greatest number.—
(Loud cheers.) Whatever system is most likely to extend
education, that system I shall certainly adopt. If 1 find
that such a system cannot be adopted owing to the ditle-
rences of religion, I do not think that a system which,
though less good in itself; may open its doors to numbers
who would be excluded from the benefits of education under
the other system, is the system we should adopt.—(Hear,
hear.) That is the principle on which we should act in
endeavouring to promote education in Ireland.—(Cheers.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who has just spoken,
as well as the Honourable Gentleman who brought forward
this motion, have talked much of the violation of conscience
which is the consequence of the system that is introduced in
Ireland. Now let us consider what that system is. The
Roman Catholic clergymen say that, according to the rules
and discipline of the Church of Rome, they cannot approve
of the Bible being made a school-book. I need not enter
into the peculiar grounds which cause that decision, as every
one knows that they are closely connected with the rules
and discipline of that Church. But that being the case,
the principle on which Lord Stanley founded his plan
was this :—That where it should be desired by the patron
of the school to introduce the Bible, it should not be
competent for him to introduce it as a school-book dur-
ing the hours in which school instruction was given to
the children of Roman Catholics. In one of the reports
presented to the House, it was expressly regulated that
during the hours of religious instruction no child should
be compelled to be present if it was objected t 3 by its
parents. That is, in two words, the principle on which
those schools are conducted, and I beg to ask how that can
be a violation of conscience, where the children are offered
only the means of such religious instruction as their parents
approve, and that the Catholics are separated from the
Protestant children? The Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man says it is a violation of conscience to the clergymen of
the Established Church of England and to many Protestant
parents, that such latitude should be allowed. Is it not the
same violation of conscience which renders it obligatory on a
parent to send a child to receive religious instruction he dis-
approves, or else to deprive it of instruction altogether?—
(Hear, hear, and cheers.) I may be permitted very shortly
to illustrate that doctrine. The Protestants of France,
under Louis XIV., said that it was a violation of
conscience to prohibit them from attending Divine worship
according to their own tenets, and from receiving religious
instruction according to their own proper belief. On
laying their complaints before the King, Louis XIV.
said that it was a violation of his conscience to permit any
one Protestant to reside or to hold property within the
boundaries of France, and he accordingly deprived them of
all their property and banished them into foreign countries
upon the ground that it was a violation to his con-
science.—(Cheers.) And so the word violation of con-
science may be used thus or in a totally different sense.
' of
The Roman Catholic says "Itis a violation my n
science to oblige my childto receive religious instruction of
which the Roman Catholic Church disapproves. That is a
very intelligent proposition ! But when the Protestant
clergyman says, " It is a violation of my conscience to pro-
mote education , unless I can compel Roman Catholic
children to receive religious instruction according to the
forms of the Church of England," the word " violation" of
conscience becomes so vague and unimportant that I for one
cannot attach any meaning at all to it.—(Loud cheers.) It
is for this reason, therefore, I cannot allow that the Pro-
testants of the Established Church have a right to object
to that system.—(llear, hear.) They certainly have a
right to say, that despairing of the schools upon
that foundation, they will not promote the educa-
tion of any children who may belong to another com•
munion. They may withdraw their support, and may
promote the success of other schools more favourable to
their views. I am glad to see that so eminent a clergyman
as the Rev. Mr. Woodward has changed his opinion upon
this subject.—( Hear, hear.) It is perfectly competent for
them to say that they will not attend these schools. I can -
not object to it. What I do object to is that they should
oppose a grant of public money for the purpose of aiding and
assisting the cause of education at these schools—which acts,
effectually, most effectually—upon no other grounds than a
violation of conscience.—(Bear, hear, and cheering.) I
must here take notice of one other point to which the Hon
and Learned Member (fir. Napier) referred. He stated.
that not only is the Bible excluded as a school-book, but that
the scriptural extracts which were made in 1832, and gene-
rally acknowledged to be extremely useful, are no longer
in use. The reason of that is that so long as they were
used as a school-hook, we used to be charged by the
Protestant clergy with allowing the use of the Bible
mutilated.—(Hear, hear.) To relieve that objection, the
Commissioners decided that they would no longer enforce
the use of the Scripture extracts. And now, though
these Scripture extracts weredismissed from use,
in compliance with the complaints of the clergymen belong-
ing to the Church of England, we are made amenable to the
charge of having deprived the children of both denomina-
tions of all religious instruction, The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman has discussed the question e
estioln very fairly! but he
hardly considered the consequences of the concession made
to the objections of the Right Rev. Prelate, and other cler-
gymen who objected to the resolution. But then it is stated
that we ought not to support a grant of public money unless
it include a portion for the use of the Church of England.
Now that is very plausible, particularly if it could be adopted
without doing a great deal of mischief, and would seem con-
formable to the system adopted in England. But the pre-
sent having been adopted as a national system, and having
appointed the Archbishop of Dublin and others to conduct
the same, I am afraid that we could not admit of any change
in favour of the Church schools, without seriously injuring
the national system.—(Cries of " Hear.") I think that the
Archbishop of Dublin would oppose any system favouring
sectarian distinctions, even if he found himself opposed
by a majority of the Church. I think, therefore,
there was a good deal of reason 'in what was said tay
the Honourable Member for Rochdale, that the Protes-
tant Church of Ireland is an endowed church, and the
clergy of it leave the means of subsisting, aiding, and sub-
scribing for schools of its own.—(Hear, hear.) The lion.
and Learned Gentleman who spoke last said that there were
large funds subscribed for such a purpose. I am sorry that
the clergy could not join in the national school system, but
if they could not conscientiously do so, I am glad that they
subscribed for schools of their own.—(Hear, hear.) But I find
a great deal of difficulty in granting aid to these schools in

-1949.

Ireland whilst the present is the mode that Government
supports as the national system. I remember that
the Ibght Honourable Baronet the Member for timworth
was asked sonic years ago to aid a system of separate reli-
gious education, and he could not agree to the proposition.
With regard to another subject connected with this, though
not belonging to it—l mean the charge.which has been made
against the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, that all the Church
patronage is reserved for. and is only given to, those who
support the national system of education—l shall merely say
that I agree with the Hon. and Gallant Member for Middle-
sex, who said that by far the greater portion of the Church
patronage, the benefices in Ireland, belongs to the bishops,
and is in their gift-1( Hear, hear)—and I really think that it
is not too much that the Government, believing this to be a
good system of education, and wishing that it should flourish,
and seeing that a great many enlightened and pious clergy-
men have, from their favourable opinion of the system, no
chance of patronage or promotion from their bishops, should
recommend them, and I think it is no wonder that the Crown,

in the distribution of its patronage, should favour their claims.
—(Hear, hear.) I therefore think that although it would
be wrong to make an absolute rule of exclusion of all those
who are conscientiously opposed to the national system of
education, yet it is a fair test of preference, and I am ready
to maintain that the conduct of the Irish Government is
right in appointing those who are friends to it to benefices in
their gift.— (Hear, hear.) The fact is not as the Hon.
Gentleman opposite stated, when he said that it is the clergy,
who are opponents of the system, who are made to support a
load of obloquy. On the contrary, all the obloquy is cast
upon those who support the system.--(Hear, hear.) They
are charged with not observing their vows, and with not
acting conscientiously with the body to which they belong,
and it requires a good deal of courage and a strength of mind
to support all the obloquy that is cast upon them.—(Hear,
hear.) For my part, Sir, I think that a system which has
for sixteen years increased, and not diminished—(Hear,
hear)—which was set on foot by Lord Stanley, which was
carried on under the Administration of Lord Grey, Lord
Melbourne, and Sir Robert Peel, which does tend to unite
Catholics and Protestants, and which, were it not for those
unfortunate prejudices of the clergy, would more readily
promote that union—l think that this system is worthy of
the continued support of this House—(Hear, hear)—and I
should regret any vote which would injure its efficacy and
undermine its usefulness.—( Loud cheers.)
Mr. HUME thought that no answer had been given to the
speech of the Hon. Member for Middlesex ( Mr. Osborne) in
reference to the refusal to admit a Roman Catholic into an
hospital in Dublin. He had originally supported the system
as introduced by Lord Stanley, and he held it to be one of
the best measures ever applied by the British Parliament to
Ireland, and he could wish a similar system, which was so
well calculated to put down sectarian rancour, was adopted
for this country.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON begged to explain. The hospital
to which reference had been made had been established with
Protestant money, to afford medical aid and spiritual conso-
lation to members of the Established Church; but he was
confident no Roman Catholic labouring under the effects of
accident would be refused admission.

Mr. REYNOLDS said that, remembering the charge
made against the hospi,al in question, he could not but
think the answer just given was equivalent to a plea of
guilty, for it was no justification in a Christian country to
say that the hospital had been founded with Protestant
money. He had never before heard of such a description
being given to the circulating medium.-.-(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) This was practical bigotry on the part of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, who was the Parliamentary
guardian of the College of the holy and undivided Trinity
in the city of Dublin.—(Hear, hear.) From that Hon. and
Learned Member he was astonished to hear that there was
an attempt to proselytise that university. Why, it was clear
that a Roman Catholic might enter as a sizar, and at the end
of four years become a candidate for a scholarship; but, how-
ever great his scholastic qualifications, he was inadmissible
to that office unless be produced a certificate that he had re-
ceived the sacrament acccrding to the form of the Established
Church in the college chapel. Therefore, unless he became
an apostate, he was excluded from honours and emoluments.
In short, though Trinity College was called a national
university, no man, from the ball porter to the senior fellow,
could hold office unless he subscribed to the Thirty-nine Ar-
ticles.
Mr. NAPIER explained, and said that he had been mis-
represented in being charged with inconsistency.
Mr. NEWDEGATE deprecated the taunts which had been
thrown out by the Honourable Members for Montrose and
Middlesex. He had only heard from them words to the
effect that the system of national education which suited the
Catholics suited some of the Protestants, and therefore that
they should keep it. But they found that there were 1,600

out of 2,000 of the clergy who found it incompatible with
their duty to accept the terms offered, and who prayed that
they might have some assistance. He proceeded, amidst

several interruptions from Ilr. Osborne, to combat the asser-

tion3 of the Hon. Member, which he said were based upon
the inexperience of his (Mr. Osborne's) own facts. The Hon.
Member seemed to be afraid that there should be a single
Protestant establishment in all Ireland. He talked of pro-
selytism ; but he (Mr. Newdegate) asked was there not such
a thing as proselytism among the Roman Catholics? Form-
ing as it did an essential portion of their religion, were they
in a position to taunt Protestants with the practice? He
lamented the decision that her Majesty's Government had
come to, and his conviction was, that well intended and well
devised as the system had been by Lord Stanley, it was un-
just to the Protestants of Ireland; and he hoped that a
system would be established in that country which would be
in accordance with the feelings of both religions.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... llB
Against it
Majority
On our return to the gallery the House had gone into
Committee of Supply, when the following votes were agreed
to c

13,4511. for Emigration.
41,1501. for stipendiary magistrates in the West India Co•
ionies and the Mauritius.

On the question that 30,0001. be granted for the support of
captured negroes,

Lord G. BENTINCK inquired whether the system of im-
porting negroes into the colonies, which had been tried,
and so unsuccessfully, was to be persisted ? One of the
ships (the Bangalore) that had been sent to the coast had
made rather a good trip, having received 7001. for the
passage of one negro boy only thirteen years of age. He
wished also to know whether any other and better facilities
would be given to our colonists towards obtaining a supply
of labour ?

Lord J. RUSSELL said that with respect to what had
been done it had been done at the request of the colonists
themselves. As to the future, it was not intended to bring
in any measure for the purpose of legalizing the purchase of
negroes on the coast of Africa.

Mr. HUME said that Government had sent out two ships,
not in accordance with the wishes of the colonists, but to
gratify a whim of their own. Those ships had been indeed
most successful, having brought home one negro between
them.—(Laughter.) He wished to know who was to pay
the expenses?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was afraid
that he must pay, although the ships had been sent out at
the urgent request of the colonists.—Vote agreed to.
23,000/., expenses of mixed commissions.
Mr. URQUHART objected to the votes, on the ground
that these commissions were virtually sinecures. He should
move that the vote be reduced by 10,0001.
Lord PALMERSTON defended the vote, and stated that
the mixed commissions were appointed under treaty, by
which they were bound to be maintained. And it was
necessary they should be so, for if any one were abolished,
and a vessel was afterwards captured under the flag of the
other party to the commission, there would be no court to
adjudicate.
Mr. ANSTEY supported the amendment, and contended
that these Commissioners' Courts might be abolished without
any infraction of existing treaties for the suppression of the
slave-trade. He should prefer to meet the vote with a direct
negative, as he believed the object of it was to keep up sine-
cure offices.

After a short conversation,
iKEOGHob
T expressedhe
annualhis
returns
showed
et
dh et Commissionthat
tno
cases
was Mr.
a
gross
came before the Court, while a large sum was annually paid
tothe officers, who enjoyed a perfect sinecure. The judge at
SieercraolLoneyonewritehcenivoed ass2,is2tsaon/. t, are3c-eettivr,edwhbiulet
Ith,seooclh.ief jTuhsteicGe
Go-
of
vthernment;feeling this to be a bad case, had offered to give up
the appointment of a judge at Sierra Leone, but maintained
those at Havannah, Surinam, and the Cape, none of whom
had decided a single case for the last three years. Surely the
judge at Sierra Leone might be charged with the whole duty.
trenchment.
Never was a more favourable opportunity presented for re-
Viscount PALMERSTON said that he had already in-
formed the House that the Judge at Sierra Leone would not
be continued, and one of the Judges at Havannah havirg died
the appointment would not be filled up.
Mr. HUME said these courts were a nest of sinecures.
Mr. BRIGHT compared the operations of the African
squadron to the knight errantry of old, and contended that
with the prevailing distress in this country no unnecessary
expense ought to be incurred for the purposes for which
this vote was designed. He was opposed to all Government
interference on the question of slavery and the slave trade.
Mr. P. HOWARD said the mixed commission had been
established in compliance with the wish of the country.
After a few words from Mr. URQUHART,
The gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place,
and the vote was agreed to.

On the vote of 41.190'. for the Consular establishments,
Mr. URQUHART moved to reduce it by 1,0001., on ac-
count of the Consul for Warsaw, which he contended ought
to be under the head of Poland, and not Russia.
Lord PALAIERSTON said he had no objection to the
alteration from Russia to Poland, which was accordingly
made.

Mr. URQUHART then moved that the vote be reduced
by the sum of 5,0001., as he objected to several of the details.
Lord PALMERSTON defended the vote as originally pro-
posed by her Majesty's Government.
Mr. URQUHART declined to divide the Committee on his
amendment, and the vote was put and agreed to.
The next vote proposed was that 49,0001. be granted to
defray the charges of the British settlement at Hong-Kong.
Dr. BOWRING complained of the excessive local taxa-
tion of Hong-Kong. Though it had but little of our China
trade, it was subjected to a very large proportion of the
diplomatic expenses of that region. Indeed, out of the five
ports in China open to our trade, there was only two with
which we had any commerce of considerable amount.
Lord PALMERSTON admitted that the subject was one
that required some consideration; and that at present there
were only two ports, Canton and Shanghae, with which we
had considerable traffic, though there was a third port
where the trade was increasing. He would endeavour next
year to see whether there might not be some reduction
effected in this.
After a few words from Mr. A. SMITH,
Mr. HAWES mentioned, as a proof of the increasing im-
portance of Hong-Kong, that its revenue during the last three
years had progressively increased, being in 1846, 22,000/. ; in
1847, 27,000/. ; and for the present year, 31,0001.
The vote was then agreed to, as was also the following :-
10,000/. for extraordinary disbursements of Ministers at
foreign Courts.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the House
having resumed, the report was ordered to be brought up to-
morrow (this day) at twelve o'clock.
The Nuisances and Contagious Diseases Bill went through
Committee. Some amendments which were proposed are to
be considered in Committee.
The report of the Commons Enclosure Act was brought
up and amended, and the Bill was ordered to be read a third
time.

The Controverted Elections Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The Dublin Police Bill went through Committe, clause 26
being struck out.

REYNOLDS intimated it was not his intention to
offer any objections to the above Bill. He should reserve his
opposition for the future stages of the measure.
The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the House
adjourned at Two o'clock.

IMPORTATION OF ASPHALTUM.—A vessel arrived
from Philadelphia, United States, has brought thirty casks
of asphaltum as a portion of her cargo. We have no recollec-
tion of a previous importation of asphaltum from the United
States of America.

LAW INTELLIGENCE: • j

DOUSE OF LORDS, August 21. .•_-.
The House sat to-day at half-past three o'clock, for '
the purpose of giving several judgments in appeal cases:
that had been heard beforry their- Lordships during 'the_
prese:.t session. The Peers present were the Lord
Chancellor, Lord Brougham, Earl Beauchamp, Nord.
Campbell, and Viscount Hawarden.

COLE V. SEWELL.
Their Lordships gave judgment in this case,affirto-
ing the judgment of the late Lord Chancellor orir-e;'
laud (Sir E. Sugden), and dismissing Abe. appesil with
costs .