The Sun.
London, England, 1848-02-18 00:00:00

1

premunire, what became of the argument in favour of
the necessity of this measure as a means of facilitating
diplomatic intercourse with the Court of Rome?—(Hear,,,
hear.) The Noble Marquis had cited an instance or
direct intercourse with that Court; but this had taken
place at a time when all Europe was involved in war,
and under the pressure of the strongest necessity.
—(Hear, hear.) He did not deny that there might
be conveniences and advantages attending a diplo-
matic intercourse with the Court of Rome •, but it
should be well considered whether there might not be
connected therewith inconveniences and disadvantagl
of a still stronger character.—(Hear.) As to the Pope!
spiritual authority in this realm, no one supposed that
the oath of abjuration meant to deny that a very large
class of our fellow-subjects did consider themselves sub-
ject to the spiritual advice and authority of the Pontiff ;
what was implied was this, that the authority in ques-
tion was not such as could be supported by the laws 01
this country, but merely one founded in opinion. No
one disputed the authority which a rescript from Rome
would possess over an Irish Roman Catholic bishop. It
was, therefore, idle to allege that this Bill was neces-
sary for the purpose of diplomatic intercourse, in the
light in which that necessity had been represented. The
fact was, the Pope had authority over our Roman
Catholic fellow• subjects, and the Government were now
seeking to establish relations with the Pope, in order to
secure his authority being exercised in the least offensive
manner. The Government must admit that this was
the real object of the Bill.—(Hear.) Then arose the
question, did this measure sanction and strengthen
the Papal authority ? If he believed it to have
that effect, he should directly oppose it. He believed the
present Pope to be a liberal and well-intentioned man;
whether he was a far seeing and discreet man might be
doubted, for he feared he had entered on a course, poli-
tically speaking, which was full of danger. However
this might be, it was evident that no man who had
recently occupied the Papal chair had exercised his
spiritual authority with so high a hand.—(Hear, hear.)
In the case of the Irish colleges the course pursued by
Pius the Ninth was most ill-judged and reprehensible.--
(Hear, hear.) Had this country had diplomatic relations
at that Court, remonstrances might have been offered;
and if these remonstrances had been disregarded, which
was probable, would not that have led to more serious
misunderstrndings with the Court of Rome than if no
such relations had existed ?—(Hear, hear.) Hence, be
doubted whether the inconveniences that might
result from this measure might not outweigh
the probable advantages. Though he was far from
thinking with the Noble Duke (Wellington) that be-
cause the Government had laid this Bill on the table
the House ought to give it a second reading, he was
yet willing to allow it to proceed, reserving his right
to give it full consideration afterwards; and be hoped
the Government would allow a sufficient interval for this
purpose, before the Bill passed its remaining stages.
The Noble Marquis had expressed his readiness to adopt
any amendment which might be thought necessary for
giving greater security to the Protestant Church; and
he thanked the Noble Lord on the Woolsack for the
important provisoes which he had suggested. He did
not object to the Bill because it recognised the temporal
sovereignty of the Pope in his own dominions; this had
already been fully recognised by this country. But he
much doubted whether the recognition- was reciprocal,
as the Noble Marquis intimated; for it was undeniable
that claims had been put forward at different times by
the Papacy wholly inconsistent with the temporal autho-
rity of the Queen of England in her dominions.—(Hear,
hear.) He doubted whether it was consistent with the
dignity of a great country like this to enter into diplo-
matic relations with any power, without a clear and ex-
press declaration on the part of that power of the tem-
poral authority at least of our Sovereign.—(Hear, hear.)
Unless such provisions were introduced he should feel
obliged to oppose the Bill. In every other country,
Catholic as well as Protestant, it had been found neces-
sary to place their diplomatic relations with Rome on a
more limited footing than those with any other country,
the reason being the extreme difficulty of drawing the
boundary line between the temporal and spiritual au-
thority of the Pope. In the case of Prussia some spe-
cial provisions of the kind he now suggested were made
before entering into diplomatic intercourse with Rome.
With regard to our Ambassador at Rome, the advan-
tages and inconveniences might be nearly balanced; but
if a papal envoy were admitted here, especially if
allowed to combine spiritual and temporal authority,
the probable inconveniences would be very serious; and
the people of this country would require very strong
security against the abuse of such power. This power
ought especially to be guarded with reference
to the admission of bulls and rescripts. As
they were about to introduce a Papal Envoy into this
, country, precautions not necessary in Roman Catho-
lic countries ought to be taken to prevent bulls and
rescripts being admitted or permitted to come in which
had not obtained the previous sanction of the Govern-
ment. These were the points to which it was right the
attention of their Lordships should be directed. Some
, of these points were calculated to satisfy the apprehen-
sions of the public, and it was on these grounds that,
though he was not prepared to join with the Noble
Duke who had moved the amendment in negativing the
second reading of this Bill, and which amendment he
hoped would not be pressed to a division, still he wished
to see how far the objection to the measure might be
removed in Committee ; but he should reserve to him-
self the entire right to take any course which he might
think expedient on the third reading of the Bill. He
would not now pledge himself to the final adoption of
the measure, but he hoped that, on a matter of so much
importance, worthy, he would not say the prejudices,
but the religious feeling of the people, ample time
would be given for the consideration of the Bill, as it
would stand after the introduction of those amendments
which their Lordships in their wisdom might think fit
to adopt.—(Hear, hear.)
Earl GREY amprepacd tho stem satisfaction he felt
that the Noble Lord who had just sat down, and who
had carefully scrutinised this measure to discover every
possible defect, found no greater fault with it than the
manner in which it had been introduced. The Noble
Lord said that a measure of such vast importance, in-
volving considerations of serious political consequences,
ought not to have been brought in without in the first
instance having been announced to Parliament by her
Majesty in the speech from the throne, or, at all events,
by a formal message sent by the Crown to both branches
of the Legislature. This objection was unworthy of the
Noble Lord, for it was new to him (Earl Grey) that
such a course was necessary; and if no more serious
fault could be found, he was content to leave it without
Bill,an
any answer.
nshwad bee
er.lnVlipid ruepnsopeete table
thtothe introduction of the
the President of the Council in a mabnynherissNtroicbtlley
, cordance with the practice of the House, and his
Noble Friend had, as usual, reserved any explanation
or discussion of the measure until he moved the
second reading, and to-night he bad not failed
to lay the case fully and fairly before their Lordships.
The case his Noble Friend had made out must have car-
ried conviction to the mind of almost every individual
who had heard him. But•then the Noble Lord opposite
(Lord Stanley) found fault with the short interval which
had been allowed to elapse between the introduction of
the Bill and i;s second reading. He (Earl Grey) owned
that he was astonished that this objection should have
been raised by the Noble Lord, because he himself had
suggested that if a reasonable interval was given before
the second reading, there would be no sort of objection
to proceeding with the Bill in Committee on the fol-
lowing day. The Government had no wish to hurry
the Bill to a discussion, and had allowed a fair interval
to elapse, but not to fix so distant a day for the second
reading that the country might be lashed into a sort of
artificial agitation. After finding these petty faults,
and dealing in this minute sort of criticism, the Noble
Lord had proceeded to make some comments which,
so far from being arguments against the Bill, were in
fact strong arguments in its favour. He had quoted
Lord Minto's dispatches, and argued from them that
already there was clearly a diplomatic intercourse be-
tween Rome and this country, and that if the penalties
of prcemunire had arisen, they had been incurred by her
Majesty's Government. The Government had never
pretended that Lord Minto had gone to or remained at
Rome on his own pleasure. On the contrary, he was
there for an avowed public object, but the existing state
of affairs prevented him having formal letters to the
Pope. He had no proper authority to act as the repre-
sentative of the British Crown at the Court of Rome,
but at the same time it had never been concealed that he
had taken an active part in the affairs of that country
This was the very case the Government brought forward
in favour of this Bill, as showing the necessity which
had existed and still did exist, for intercourse of a
diplomatic nature between the two countries. The
manner in which that intercourse had hitherto
been carried on, had been most unsatisfactory.
It was of frequent occurrence that the Govern-
ment had to communicate with the Court of Romo in
reference to the ecclesiastical affairs in many of the cue
lonics where the Roman Catholic religion prevailed, and
hence it was of importance this country should have a
recognized representative at Rome. Undoubtedly it
would not have been right to have sent Lord Minto if
the Government had not contemplated the very step
which it had now taked in asking Parliament to put the
intercourse upon a proper footing. The Noble Lord
opposite bad said that no Protestant state received as an
envoy from Rome any ecclesiastic, and he had instanced
the case of Prussia. This restriction, however, did not
rest upon the law of Prussia, but simply on the pleasure
of the King and his Government, and on that pleasure
they had declined to receive an ecclesiastic as an ambas-
sador. In the same way, if this Bill passed, it would be
open to the Government of this country, be that Govern-
ment whom it might, to decline to receive any ambassa-
dor if they thought any inconvenience or danger would
arise from his presence here, and therefore it appeared
1 to him (Earl Grey) to bo unnecessary that the Bill
should contain any such clause of restriction as
that of which notice had been given. It would
be difficult to frame a clause to define who
would be a safe ambassador to be admitted from
the Court of Rome, and therefore it was better that
the responsibility should be left upon the Government
for the time being. The clause of which the Noble
Duke at the table (the Duke of Wellington) had given
notice would be a decided improvement in the Bill; for
though he (Earl Grey) thought the Bill was perfectly
safe as it stood, this clause would make " assurance
doubly sure," and tend to allay unnecessary fears which
prevailed outside the walls of Parliament. Hence the
Government gave their adhesion to that clause. There
was no other point to which he (Earl Grey) felt it ne-
cessary at present to advert, except as to what had fallen
from a Right Reverend Prelate early in the debate,
who appeared to him to admit the policy, expe-
diency, and legality (under the existing laws) of diplo-
matic intercourse with the Court of Rome; for the ob-
jection of the Right Rev. Prelate simply was, that the
Bill was unnecessary; and he desired that the opinion
of the judges should be taken as to the law as it actually
stood in this respect. Now, according to the forms of
the House, if this Bill had not been before it, it was not
competent to consult the judges on a question of the