The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-17 00:00:00

to aot.The Noble Lord had said that he should conduct F LordJ. RUSSELL—When the Hon. Member asked
the Government on the principles which he had hitherto me the 'ether day whether! was prepared to lay a declare-
adopted. Now, who could put a right construction upon tion before the House of the principles upon which the
that ? Nobody knew what it meant. To what period Ministry of which I was the head would be conducted,
of his life did the Noble Lord allude ? Had he said, I I declined to undertake the task. I took no offence,
shall act on the principles of Lord Grey's Government, as the Hon. Gentleman seems to suppose, to that ques-
he,ir (Jr. Duncombe) would have understood him. The tion, but it did not seem to be necessary that a person
Bon. Gentleman then went on to say—But there is an- who had taken a part—perhaps an unwise part—perhaps
Per matter on which I may venture to put a question. an injurious part to the country—in the discussions of
There were rumours, and there are rumours, as from this House, but who had always taken, at least, an
undoubted authority, that the Noble Lord, on forming open part in these discussions—(Cheers)—whets he was
his Government, applied to the Right Hon. Baronet, the called upon by her Majesty to form a Government, and
Itte First Lord of the Treasury, to lend him three dis- had succeeded in inducing persons who, in his opinion,
lloguished members of his Government.—(Cheers and were competent to conduct the affairs of the different de-
laughter.) Perhaps if th ose members had been obtained, partments —to share with hint in his responsibility—l
the Hon. Member for Melton (Mr. E. Denison) might say, when that was the case, I did not think it necessary
have been satisfied. He complains of neglect of the to make a general parade of the opinions and principles
landed interest; but for my part Ido not care one straw —a parade is very easy to make—(Hear, hear)—of de-
whether there is an overplus in the Cabinet of the landed clarations which may convey the sentiments of a large
interest or of the trading interest. What I want to majority in this House, and yet when that parade is
know is the principles on which the Government so made may leave Members as ignorant as they
formed is to be conducted. That is one point on which were before as to the precise measures which
Was desirous of being informed—did or did not the Government means to introduce. I did
the; Noble Lord make application directly or inoi- ' uot, therefore, think it necessary to make any such de-
"tlY to three members of the late Government clarations, and although the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
for their assistance in his emergency ? This very morn- Duncombe) has alluded to various persons who have
ing I have seen some of the Noble Lord's constituents— before filled the station which I have the honour to hold,
very able and active men—and Isay this, that if the Noble and who have made these statements, lam at a loss to
his were to go to Guildhall to-morrow, notwithstanding I call to mind when such declarations were made, or who
Ts reception the other day, he would meet with very were the persons who made these general declarations
ip!fferent treatment.—(Cries of " No, no," and cheers.) upon entering office.
',.',•3, it--go there.—(Renewed cheers and much laughter.) Mr. DUNCO MBE—Lord Grey.
z hat did these constituents say? That the answer of Lord J. RUSSELL—I do not know that Lord Grey
the Noble Lord was satisfactory? Far from it ; one of made, in the House of Lords, a general statement of
them told me, in so many words, "We are going to have the principles on which he intended to conduct his Ad-
the old Whig dodge over again."—(Continued cheers.) ministration. Ido not recollect that Lord Melbourne
Ahat is what he understood from the Noble Lord's an- did so. Ido not recollect that Sir Robert Peel made
ster, 'Then we come again to the three gentlemen for any such declaration. Both my Hon. Friend the Mem-
/ittool the Noble Lord applied to the Right Hon. ber for Maldon (Mr. E. Denison), and the
~,aronet. On what principle was the application made? Honourable Gentleman the Member for Fins-
That is is what I should like to know. I could not believe bury (Mr. Duncombe), have made various comments and
not in
a long time.. I read.. it in a newspaper; but I am criticisms upon the composition of the Ministry, and
t the habit of believing all I read in newspapers ; have asked—at least my Hon. Friend the Member for
but the first in which I saw it stated was the Weekly Finsbury did so—various questions, to some of which I
Chronicle.—(Hear, hear.) It is a paper most ably writ- shall proceed to give an answer. I own I think, consi-
to, as indeed every one must be that proceeds from the dering the past history of the commerce and manufac-
P" of my Hon. Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty.— tures in the country, and how vast a portion of the
,it'sughter and cheers from all parts of the House.) wealth of the country depends upon commerce and ma-
what did my Hon. Friend say only ten days ago ? He nufactures, I think it rather unjust, as a criticism made
contended that nothing could be more absurd than such by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, that there are too
L/B„tory, although every hour had its lie, and every lie its many.in the Cabinet connected by family with land, and
_euevers. He says—" The Liberal clubs are like the too few persons connected with commerce and manufac-
ttatute fairs of the nortb—full of labourers waiting to tures. On the one side, it has been said that the pre-
,; hired ; yet one of our Liberal Contemporaries, The ference has been given to the landed interest; and, on the
t sun, has the barbarity to suggest, that in addition to re- other, that the manufacturers of Lancashire and York-
wal?eing Lord Dalhousie at the Board of Trade, for. shire are henceforth to govern the country. I deny
"1 hit would be difficult to find a more efficient presis holding any such sentiment. I hold myself that not for
dent, or one more universally respected, Lord John land, not for commerce, not for manufactures,
Russell should endeavour to secure the valuable services the affairs of the country should be managed,
of Lord Lincoln in Ireland, where he has only had six but that the Government should be con-
Zveeks experience as Secretary. We cannot compre- ducted for the benefit of the whole. I do think
aensl these crotchets. A Peel-mania is bad enough ; that by the manner and the measures whereby they fulfil
butGlanville
a Lincoln-mania, or a Sidney Herbert-mania, or a their high trustsdthneotyzibtehresiof theGovernm entought
from their connexion with land by
tiranville Somerset-mania, to which we alluded last week, to be judged, a
really pass our comprehension. Can any man point cut birth, or withn law by profession. The Member for
to us, in the whole House of Commons, up to Nov. 1,1845, Finsbury (Mr. Duncombe) asks, whether in constructing
a More decided monopolist than Lord Lincoln? Can the Government I did ask the aid of those gentlemen
any man understand or respect his conversion?"—(Much who were colleagues in the late Government ; and the
cheering.) If anybody else respects the Noble Lord's Hon. Gentleman puts it in that spirit of levity with
conversion, it is clear that my Hon. Friend the Secretary which he entertains the House.—(Hear, and laughter.)
for the Admiralty does not respect it.—(Cheers and " Did I ask the Right Hon. Baronet to lend me three of
laughter.) But he goes on :—" Can any man fathom his colleagues?" I hope the House will not understand the
the mental process by which Mr. Sidney Herbert was answer in the same tone. I did ask the Earl of Dalhousie,
induced to espouse free-trade opinions as soon as he met :he Earl of Lincoln, and the Right Hon. Sydney Herbert
Sir Robert Peel in London, in November last year, to do me the honour to be colleagues in the Govern-
after making the most strenuous Protectionist speeches ment which I was then about to form.—(Hear, hear.)
in August to his constituents? No! If there is to be It was my opinion that I ought not to ask the aid of Par-
a fusion of parties, by way of making what is called a sons from whom I differed widely in political sentiments;
strong government, give us Sir Robert Peel and Sir but these persons have entertained opinions, and advo-
dames Graham! We should then, at all events, have cated them lately, quite consistent with my own. But I
something for our money. But with all respect for The did think that it was of great consequence to the
Sun, we cannot conceive as, stem of Irish government, honour of my Sovereign, and the peace and well-being of
of which Lord John Russell should be the head, and the country that such a Government should be formed ;
Lord Lincoln the confidential agent." When I read that the country should place confidence in it—some
it I considered it, like my Hon. Friend the Secretary to placing their confidence in some of the Members, others
the Admiralty, a most absurd rumour—that there could in others, while all the Members of that Government
net be a word of truth in it ; but a few days afterwards agreed in the same general policy. I do not say that
What did I see in another newspaper, which, lam told, up to 1841, not up to 1842 and 1843; but I have found
4" if it be not true there are parties present who can myself agreeing with these persons in the opi-
,„°lltradict it, is now to be considered the Government nions which were advanced by them of late.—(Hear.)
„"
"rgan—l mean the Times.—(Much cheering.) lam I supported them when they brought forward measures
tr,,tdibly informed that some arrangement has been made for the advancement of what is called free trade, taking
,d; a skilful negotiator, now in this House, the Honour- away. restrictions, and abolishing monopolies. I agreed
eiille Member for Worcester (Sir D. Le Merchant), by with them when they introduced measures—just in prin
,ra 101 this end is to be accomplished. This is a ru- ciple, though not wise as to the moment of their intro-
itc4ir :it may .not be true, and I state it that if untrue duction—to conciliate Ireland; and I could not see that
ZIP' be contradicted. I think it due to that great there would be any dishonour attached to those gentle-
raZog journal that nothing so injurious to its cha- men in consequence of their joining with me in the Go-
h,-r and influence should go forth, if the statement vernment. They expressed themselves in terms very
al,"1-fouaded : it is that by a Government arrange- courteous to me, and they stated that they thought they
agtiltt, in the phraseology of a military ga could not take office in the present Administration.
Chr, that the Times has been promoted, vice the It was, of course, for them to form their own judgment
thle'Neie superseded.—(Cheers and laughter.) It seems upon the matter, and I certainly cannot reproach my-
sib', finder the circumstances, that some consolation self with doing anything else than my duty to the Soya-
wh.tild he afforded to an old friend—to that journal reign in making that proposition. The Hon. Gentleman
next alluded to certain reports which had appeared in
sehleh has now been aoandoned, although through good
eierl and evil report it clung to the party, and waded various newspapers. I do not think that it is neces-
tteT deep in the mire to support it.—(Cheers.) Never- sary for me to enter into the subject of reports in news-
papers. lam not, of course, responsible for them. The
toeess, in the moment of victory it is not to be per-
iiiit"ed "to share the triumph and partake the gale," but Hon. Member alluded to a certain question upon which
le e sad old friend, no longer useful, it is now to be neg• he wished to know the opinion of the Government. I
Possess It is thus deprived of the authority it ought to will not deny that although I should not have thought it
'itiir,s as the organ of the party, and another paper is necessary to make any general or vague declaration, yet
1.4
rsttuted. I read in the Times, that after the Noble that, being called upon to state my opinions upon a cer-
hi°s !Iwes first called upon to form a government, almost tain question, I think lam bound, so far as I can, to
„,ato first act was to run to the Right Hon. Member for give my opinions as to the mode in which the Govern-
s-I worth for the loan of these three gentlemen.— ment should be conducted with reference to any par-
(Laughter, The Right Hon. Baronet seems to have titular question. I think, in the first place, that it is not
f'ePlied, that it was too delicate a matter for him to absolutely necessary that any Government should
interfere in, but that if he might express an opi- be formed, either at present or in the future,
Ilion, it would be, that if they accepted the Noble Lord's the members of which should all hold precisely the same
offer, it would have too much the appearance of the love opinions. I admit that every member of such Govern-
Of place.--(Cheers.) It was added, that when they were ment should agree upon the main principles, but it is
applied to, their answer was, that at present they did not necessary that they should all agree upon every
not intend to comply with the Noble Lord's urgent re- question that may come under the consideration of Par-
quest, and the consequence has been, that the offices liament. Such was the view taken in old times, and
have fallen into the hands of the Hon. and Right Hon. such was the mode in which, in old days, statesmen of
Gentlemen I have now the gratification of seeing before great name had conducted the affairs of this country
me,—(Cheers and laughter.) I confess that I agree with great success. Upon those principles they had
f
with my Hon. Friend of the Weekly Chronicle, the Se- formed their Ministry. In the year 1784 Pitt had mem-
cretary to the Admiralty. Instead of applying for three bers in his Government who were entirely disagreed
Members of the late Cabinet, it would have been with him on the question of Parliamentary reform—a
better for him at once to have taken the whole.—(Much very great question in those days, and a very great
taughter.) If the Noble Lord had done so, we should question at all times, until the Act of 1832 was passed.
have had an excellent Secretary for the Home Depart- He had colleagues in his Government who disagreed also
roent, who has discharged his daties to the satisfaction with him upon the important question of the slave trade.
of everybody.—(Cheers.) I repeat, to the satisfaction of Mr. Fox succeeded to the Government of Mr. Pitt, and
everybody as far as public interests are concerned ; for he formed a Government in which were Members dif-
!lle private squabbles I may have had with him have fering with him on Parliamentary reform, and on the
nothing to do with the general administration of his high Roman Catholic question. When a Government was
satee•—(Cheers.) Besides that, we should have had a afterwards called by Lord Liverpool, Lord Liverpool
good Chancellor of the Exchequer—an old, experienced comprised in that Cabinet members differing entirely on
.',hancellor of the Exchequer—(Laughter)—whose the Catholic question, which I think one of the most im-
tuladgets have "braved the battle and the breeze" for portant questions of the day. Sir, with respect to this
t, anY a long year—(Renewed laughter)—instead of a latter case, I think that this combination of men differ-
iitw, inexperienced officer, however able he may be, and ing on the Catholic question was carried on too long—
l' triumphantly he may come from the town of ~ et I think it was the question of carrying on a war with
ec,al,fBl. (Cheers.) When these things take place, as France. When it was a question of endeavouring to
carry on resistance against a mighty military chief who
e,rtified to the public by your leading organ, and by the
P-ra generally I ask, is there any man in the House or threatened the existence and independence of this
11-
of it who Will tell me that an explanation is not re- country, we ought to have had an Administration fully
gained? Is not some explanation due to the country competent to carry out the various departments of the
;too! destinies you aspire to direct, and to the people Government—men who could act together on most ques-
tions of the Administration, although they differed on
Isinhui, 370 u presume to govern ? . I thought that. the
o're Lord would only be too anxious to state his prin- some questions of policy. Now, Sir, the Right Hon.
the
but he has removed part of my difficulty, for he Gentleman the Member for Tarnworth, when he formed
ti4la said that he means to conduct the Government on his Government, seems to have made it with much
and on the greater uniformity of opinion, and a greater affinity of
ne: principles he has always advocated,
~Istalons he has always expressed. Still I want to know conduct on the part of the members of his Administra-
tion and party generally than either Pitt, Fox, or Lord
intentions
those principles- are? What, for instance, are his
,i n:tlons as to the Irish Church ? What was the Liverpool ; but although the Right Honourable
°eon of the Noble Lord last year as to the Irish Baronet has great talents and great powers of
tin-urell ? The Honourable Gentleman then con- conducting a Ministry, and from various eir-
ti,'lled :—His (Mr. Duncombe's) Honourable Friend cumstances at the time succeeded in his attempt,
e Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward), moved Ido not think if now attempted, it would be very sue-
,ton the discussion of the Maytiooth Bill, cessful again, or advantageous to the public. Now, Sir,
'that it is the opinion of this House that any provi- I say this because there are several points on which I
dons to be made for that purpose by the present Bill will readily admit that the members of the Administra.
?light to be taken from the funds already applicable tion, of which I have the honour to be the head, are not
;,?.. ecclesiastical purposes in Ireland." Now the completely agreed in opinion. With respect to the opi-
4Nohle Lord supported and voted for that motion nions of Lord Grey on the Irish Churches, Ido not eon-
well, then, he wished to know whether that was to be. cur in many of the statements made in this and the other
the principle upon which the Government was to be di- House of Parliament. Some Members of the Adminis-
rected ea that subject ?—(Hear, hear.) Let the House tration, again, think that I have gone too far with re-
know what was the Governments' intention. The spect to the statements I have made with regard to the
lion. Gentleman opposite, of the country party, who Irish Churches. I will state at once what is my intention,
had a dinner the other day at Greenwich, and the intention of my colleagues, with regard to the
(Great laughter)—declared, amidst cheers which shook affairs of Ireland. I consider the' social grievances of
Ireland
oar_ to
are those which are most prominent—(Hear,
their principles were the same in 1846 as they were in
the house in' which they met to its foundations, that
hear —and a
complete
d whichlete and immediate remedy ;but by
it is most likely to be in our power
IB4l.—(Great cheering from the Protectionists.) But
to afford
he should like to 'know what were their principles is some remedy, and some kind of improvement, I have a
1841.1841.—daughter, and cheers.) Did they not in 1841
hope. that some ten or twelve years hence the country,
come to a resolution that the Government of that time by the measures we shall undertake, will be in a far
had not the confidence of that House, and that her Majesty better state as regards the dreadful destitution and.
.misery
should be prayed to appoint a new Ministry ?—(Hear, now prevalent in it. We have that particular object in
hear, and cheers.) And yet, were they not now support-
view, and shall endeavour to undertake it. I believe we
ing that very Governmant in whom they, in 1841, are all of the same mind on the subject, and we will not
declared they had no confidence.—(Cries of " No, no," be led away by our differences on subjects on which we
from the Protectionists.) They did support them, or cannot effect any immediate good.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
whyii did they sit on the same benches. (Hear, Sir, secondly, with regard to the franchise inlreland—my
Governmentcheers.) Were they
ia favourable
supportsar, andnow prepared
eprepaaryendootto
.opinion is, that it is a great mistake to suppose,
endowment, when in
?—(Bear, hear,
declared themselveshli de- as some persons seem now to suppose, that there
eidedij opposed to it 7—(near,
_.) `The Noble Lord nooth Bill, and in doing so said uno immediate connexion between political franchise
and social condition. My opinion is, that in proportion
supporteel the MaY
the prelude to other measures invO.. that as a man is raised by the enjoyment of this 'franchise,
it was butwhich belongs to a free state, his energies and industry
endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy in lyin the
Ireland. A are promoted, and he aspires to a better and higher con-
Noble Lord (Lord Howick) who was then in that Hon dition , and in so saying I agree with those who have
went still further, and said—" I will take the Protestantse been the greatest lights and ornaments of that House,
Church revenues and apply them to the Roman Cattle_ which if I go more into detail I could presently show.
lies in the first instance, and the remainder to the Pro- It will be, therefore, my endeavour to procure, to obtain,
testant clergy, because those revenues of the church for the people of Ireland the enjoyment of equal political
originally belonged to the Roman
And he would call upon the Noble Lord to state whether it is necessary that I should make some declaration of
he does entertain his old opinions with regard to the principle. When asked on this subject, I gave him this
tAhseit was necessary I should make that decla-
finality of the Reform Bill.—( Hear, hear.) Then athnoewugehr,ieno
rFartalonnchise the
Pol°itticl
there was another question which he desired to
successfully,
1836, I contended in this House,
be informed upon ; he was anxious to know
the
ye a that
What course would be pursued with regard to the Bill
The lower
shall contenl people of Ireland ought not to be on a
for restricting the hours of labour in factories.
ilevel than the people of England." I
Noble Lord had given his zealous support to that Bill
which I contended
hotto that tli ae
1846, in conformity to that
complete those 11836, and I do look to be able to
during the whole of the last session, and he has now the
means, by a great majority, to carry out that measure.
because I have measuresheardfr Which I have in contemplation,
He (Mr. Duncombe) hoped that that important measureof those who are op •
pf
roashe
cdh to os
em ine
Irelandin o pi opinion, oo nu ,g
have admitted that the
Would not be left to the care of private individuals. Ile
nyryaised to a level of that
l'eengnised in the Government of the Noble Lord several ,
In England. That is, from
clePonents of the measure. He, therefore, considered 1 those who opposed it for-
thaterly, and it is honourable in those wh
, these were circumstances which required, which
m on the subject, and who o change their
demanded explanation; and in his opinion it was the opinions„
to b© established, to think that the
interestequality ought that such is
of all parties that we should no longer be
opinion,and to aid in such endeaavow
leceived, or allow ourselves to be deceived.—(Hear.) their
hurches in Ireland, and thruerr;d With re-
:t was a charge against the late Prime I‘linister, that i sped to the nnent of
Vchurch, I voted with my Hon
the Catholic Friend, the
he did not deceive any body, but he allowed others ifavourof*
to deceive themselves. is thatshould ' Member for Sheffield, in providing for the es-
It necessary we
'nooth out of the funds of the ktablishment of Ma}
now the truth—(Hear. hear, hear)—that we should
were defeated by a very great ma-
testant Chnrch. We
Pro-
know the worst, and what we have to expect front this the House was adverse to that
jority, and the opinion of .
Government. If the measares of the Noble Lordand
d to that end, gave my
tt"ehe , grant. I afterwards voted e extensive, and eenceived in a liberal spirit, bl' h ent of M
conia t i zealous support to the Bill for the este is m ay-
k• promiee him the greatest possible suppor . 1
fund. I made no difficulty
(lt of tlpors. -- - , nooth out of the Consolidated
with respect to the Bill, because it was the 1110 ion of
.._