The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-19 00:00:00

told, and he knew, that the 1111 was unconstitutional in
its principles ; and the great question was whether the
present state of -affairs justified the application of any
such measure. The great want of Ireland at present
was security for lite and pr, perry ; and the psition of
affairs was certainly somewhat anomalous with regard
to those who should be resident ir, that country. They
were told that they would be punished for non-resi-
dence ; and if they did reside, the probability was that
they would be shot from behind their own garden walls.
He could not feel, however, that such powers as those
now sought for should be accorded to the Government.
He had been for a long time in doubt and difficulty on
this subject, and he had at length come to the conclu-
sion that he could not support this measure.—(Hear,
hear.) The great evil in Ireland was, that the people
were misled—and yet this measure was directed against
those who actually committed the evil, and not
against those who had misled the people to it.—
Why did they not stop the grievance at its source?
Why did they not attack that monster grievance
agitation, which he believed to have been the source and
origin of the present state of crime. The Govern-
ment of England had never attacked the origin of
crime in Ireland. They had not gone to the root of the
evil, but they had gone to extremities in order to repress
the effects of a system which was working mischief.
The law of Elizabeth might be applied to Ireland, to
compel the landowners to find work for those who were
not employed, and if such a measure had been proposed
in conjunction with the present Bill, he thought that
he could have consented to any degree of severity. It
was, however, a monstrous evil that the language which
Was used to the people of Ireland was such as to pro.
duce insichief. The principle of agitation had been in-
culcated. The people were told to agitate, yet they
were told of their millions and their physical strength.
It reminded him of the trial of Mr. Cobbett, when there
Was read from one of his Registers a caution to the peo-
ple of Dorsetshire and Wiltshire, when so much
incendiarism prevailed. Mr. Cobbett said to the
people that they were wrong in burning a
nay-rick here and there, for they did little
harm, and the diabolical Whigs were watching
them, and would hang them if they could as they would
hang him. He, hoWever, mentioned that there were corn-
fields in the adjacent country, some of which were four
or five hundred acres in extent. The corn was very ripe
at that time of the year, and exceedingly inflamable.
There were public pathways through it, and he cau-
tioned them not to smoke their pipes as they passed for
fear of aecidents. There was nothing in the nature of
the Irish people but what could be changed by edu-
cation and proper treatment. It was a disgrace to this
country that so many Governments had failed in manag
ing the Irish people. Ireland had been and was the
opprobrium of successive Governments. On the present
occasion he was sorry he could not join in supporting
the Bill before the House, feeling as he did, that it
would not cure the state of things complained of.
Captain LAYARD thought the Hon. Gentleman who
had ju-t sat down was of a very disinterested dis-
position, when he said the Government had not done
their best to put down agitation in Ireland. He was an
Englishman, still he knew a great deal of Ireland, and
he could tell the Hon. Gentleman, who seemed
not much acquainted with that country, that
the real cause of discontent was the con-
dition of the people, and the misery they
had been enforced to endure. No coercion could put
that down. On a former occasion he stated how happy
he should be if the Noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck)
and his party would join with the Irish Members in de-
feating the Bill before the House, and he (Captain.
Layard) now returned thanks to those Members of that
great party who now agreed to vote against the mea-
sure. With their help he fully trusted that the ob-
noxious Bill would be defeated.—(Hear, hear.) He
. learned, however, that some Members who had acted
with the Noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck) intended
to vote for the Bill, and to them he would address him.
self. They had, by their proceedings and 'peeches, de
dared they had no confidence in the Right Hon. Baronet
and the Government. If so, if they had no faith is
the Government, how could they do anything wife')
Would put such extraordinary power in the hands of
those they could not trust.—(Hear, hear.) The mea
sure was an unconstitutional one, and having no faith in
the Government they were bound to refuse trusting them
With carrying it into effect. .Thi s consideration and
the fact that the state of things in the five
counties had much improved, were reasons sufficien•
why all those who acted with the Noble Lord (Lord G
Bentinck) should oppose the present Bill. He learned
also, with sorrow, that some members on this side of the
House—he hoped very few—intended to vote for the
Bill. He would ask those what return would that be on
the part of those Liberals to the Irish Members, who had
come over, at great inconvenience, to support the Con.
Bill—a Bill, by the by, which was not over popular it.
Ireland ? Still, the Irish Members believing this Corn
Bill a good and honest measure, supported it, and

would ill become the Liberal. Mnlier, to return tha,
support now, by voting for a Bill to coerce the Irish
people.—(Hear, hear.) If the present Bill was a bad
Bill, no consideration of having a Corn Bill shouh'
operate on them to give the former their support. But
the Corn Bill was safe ; there could be no doubt as to its
success ; and that excuse did not remain for the parties
referred to joining with the Government against the Irish
people. He believed the evils of Ireland would be best met
ba's finding employment for the people, by the encourage
raent of public works; and in this respect he (Capt.Layard)
agreed with the sentiments of the Duke of Leinster.
who that day had presided over a meeting for forward
ing that object. He gave every credit to the Noble
Lord (Lincoln) for the measures he had proposed.
as a movement in the right direction ; still they wera•
not so comprehensive as might have been desired. Ever
the pre sent distress of Ireland he thought would prove
beneficial in i•uproving Ireland.• It had led to the us,
of Indian corn in place of potatoes, and he was happy-
to say that wherever that grain was used in preferenc,
to potatoes, fever had much decreased.— (Hear, hear.)
The introduction of Indian corn would lead to a taste
for a higher class of food, and the standard of comfor'
would accordingly be raised. Some apprehended tha.
the union between England and Ireland could not b.
maintained, but he for one was not of that opinion ;
he thought equal laws and equal Government would yet
lead to the existence of a united yet free and happy
people.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said the measure bad been Wort
Parliament since the 15th of March, when it was first
Printed. If had dragged its length for seven weeks it
, the House of Lords, and then it found its way to tin
Commons. It was then read a first time. He was on,
that thought a measure founded on a message from tht
Crown, and, corning from the Lords, in deference to
that body, should be read without discussion a first time.
013 that account he voted for the first reading of the
an I* Now, the House must bear in mind that, befort•
,y stringent and unconstitutional measure such as tha.
which they were now considering could be passed.
they must be convinced that there was a
strung case made out.—(Hear, hear.) He wag
One of those, too, who thought all partie:
must concur in its expediency before they could
Pass a severe coercive and unconstitutional measure, and
certainly it was not so in the present instance, while he
_
bound to say a sufficient case had n 44 been made out
to justify his voting for the second reading of this Bill.
--(Rear.) To show that a case had not been mad,
Wit, he referred to the returns which had been published
With regard to the state and extent of crime in Ireland
in which it was manifest that crime had not reached such
a pitch as to render the passing of a Coercion Bill neces-
sary. From the returns he found that the number or
homicides committed in all Ireland in 1843 were 106, in
1844,-146, and in 1845, 139; but Governmo it said the)
did not rest the case of this Bill upon the returns re-
lating to all Ireland, but upon the returns relating to
five particular counties. Now he found that the number
of homicides committed in these five counties were it,
1842, 38 ; in 1845, 42 ; an increase not large
enough to justify the passing of the Bill. With regard
to attempts at murder, the numbers were for all Ireland.
in 1842, 40; for the five counties 13; while in 1845 they
were 45, and for the five counties 15. The numbers relatinr
to assaults endangering life were for 1842, 249 ; in 1845
237, showing a positive decrease. The assaults were in
1845, 229; for the five counties 63, but the numbotrs o
aggravated assaults stood thus—in 1842, 420; in 1845.
545; while the proportions for the five counties were 141.
It was clear that these returns did not justify the passint
of a stringent Coercion Bill, but the House had reeentl,
been put in possession of some returns relating to th,
present year. These, however, did not show such ar,
Increase in the crime of Ireland as to impress him with
a conviction that this Bill ought to be passed. For
instance, in the case of aggravated assaults, he found
there were 53 mentioned in the return, but on looking
to another p)rtion of it he found that only 24 were
brought to justice. These returns then did not make ou.
a case for this Bill, and again he must repeat that after
giving the subject his earnest attention, he could not
conscientiously support the second reading of the Bill.
1)'0 Irish gentleman whom he had yet heard steak
favour of the Bill said that he thought it would do any
good at all, and that, in his (Mr. Henley's) opinion.
was one of the best reasons why the Bill should not be
allowed to proceed. He had carefully reviewed the
Speeches of those Irish gentlemen, and he must ,!onfess-,
that when none of' them maintained that the Bill would effect its objects, he could not understand what induced
them to vote in ,f
question that he had to of it.—_(Hear, hear.) The next
was any reason if, in hi)saoswknh'imrsaf
neve the measure necesseary, whether then
J;lu.gment, he did not be-
judgment to those who supporter) should yield his own
there might be many measures
w t,.ha measure; because
th respect to which,
however much one might try to!
inform themselves, it
ment of those
was their duty at once to yield to :In
juirg
ormed; and he
pres, nt
Who might be supposed to be betteer.
came to the conclusion that that was sone
occasion. Now. the First Minister of thpeo&the
he spoke of the Bill—if he (Mr. Henley)orwecno'llwh"
aright, certainly dwelt very much upon the necessiectytodf.
some measure. He seemed to him "to fight very shy"
with the Bill, to use such an expression.--(Hear, hear
and laughter.) He appeared to the House in this posi-
tion, " Will you by your vote affirm that in your judg-
ment something is not necessary for Ireland?" That
was the course which the argument of the Right Hon.
Baronet appeared to take. He did not wish to misstate
what the Right Hon. Gentleman said, and these were his
words, and with the permission of the House, he would
read them. Sir Robert Peel said, " Sir,—The question
we have to decide is not whether we shall go into Com-
mittee upon the Bill, which her Majesty's Ministers have
felt it their duty to propose. The question will not be
whether we shall consider the Bill in Committee,
for the purpose of removing anything from its
details-, and at that time mitigating the principle
of the Bill, &c., but the question which the House will
have to decide will be whether it will reject altogether
this proposal—will refuse the consideration of its juqi-
fication—will imply that the present condition of Ireland
can be dealt with by the existing law, and implying opi-
nions that no additional protection is necessary for the
protection of life and property in Ireland." Then,
agiu, he said, in the later part 91his speech, " *Any

man acquainted with the state of Ireland, or acquainted
with the alarm which prerails there, _can deny the
truth of the a;sertion of her Majesty's Minis ern,
that measures of some kind or other are ind spensible
arid immediately necessary." Some kind or other,
the House would observe—" for the purpose of
giving that confidence which the people of that
country did not at present possess in the security of
their lives and property." Now he (Me. Henley) must
say that when he heard the Right lion. Baronet thus
express himself, he did not think he need be quite so
indignant with the Noble Lord who sat behind him in
reference to his remarks about the p,-,ssibility of her
Majesty's Government not really intending to proceed
with this Bill. The Right Hon. Baronet had said that
the Bill could be rectified in Committee, and that ex-
pression therefore did not show that he entertained a
very strong conviction on his mind that it would pass in
its present shape. What need he to have been so
indignant about the Noble Lord's remarks, when
it appeared that the Government had no ob-
jection to mitigate the Bill when it went
into Committee? The proposition of the Government
amounted to this, " Would not the House do something
to remedy the present condition of Ireland?" Now, he
was very much struck with a matter which really seemed
to him to illustrate so completely the conduct of the
present Government towards Ireland, that he must
trouble the House with it. In the returns there was the
name of William Middleton, Esq , who was described as
having been attacked, or having had one of the usual
outrages committed upon him. About one o'clock in the
morning, it appeared that a shot was fired into Mr. Mid-
dleton's dwelling, and the ball lodged in the door. Mr.
Middleton went out, but having seen no person, what
(lid he do ? He fired a shot as a signal of defiance.—
(Hear, and laughter.) Now that seems a very
Irish way of doing business, because he (Mr.
Henley) should have thought that he would have kept
his shot in case of emergency. Now, he thought that
the conduct of Mr. Middleton was something like that
of the Government. They fired this shot into Ireland to
defy Ireland. He thought that it was not a good
practice to show your teeth when you did not mean to
bite. He thought that every gentleman connected with
Ireland on his side of the House would agree with him
that it would be better, if they did not mean to " bite"
the people, that they should not show their teeth. Well,
now, having disposed of this question of firing a shot of
defiaaee against Ireland, the next question lie had to
ask himself was, whether there was anything in the
conduct of the present Government towards Ireland
that should induce any man to go into a wild inquiry for
the purpose of forming an opinion as to the way in
.which the Irish question should be settled? Supposing
they agreed Logo into Committee on the present con-
•tisiea of Irelan lion. uenttemen on oien shies or Lee
House would get up and move instructions as to what
they were to do with regard to Ireland. Suppose, for
instance, the Hon. Member for Hereford would get up,
and would move as an instruction about the removal of
what he called the monster grievance of Ireland. That
was not at all unlikely. Well, then, there were many
other matters that would be discussed. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Stroud would no doubt get up, and move his in-
struction on the question of Irish grievances. He would
eet up undoubtedly, and say that the best means of
,topping the murders in Ireland would be by feeding her
people—(Hear, hear)—and that he (Mr. Henley) cer-
'ainly thought was one of the best means of improving
-he social condition of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It was
made to appear by the returns that many of the outrages
to Ireland were not of an agrarian character, but no sen-
iible reasons for these outrages were given. He (Mr.
Henley) believed that the majority of them were really
attributable to the conduct of landlords. Then the Hon.
Ind Learned Member for Cork (Mr. O'Connell) would
ao doubt propose something in the Committee, that
would have for its object the improvement of the present
tenure of land in Ireland. Some lion. Gentlemen, too,
in his (Mr. Henley's) side of the House, would no doubt
m•opound some nostrums of their own. Suppose the
Noble Lord the Member for London were also to put in
cis instruction in Committee—suppose the Noble Lord
-were to say, "Look at the state of Ireland in 1842 ; see
'whether the common law is not sufficient." He th9ught the
Noble Lord might very fairly say that, because he did
not suppose that anybody would say that the Arms
Bill was an invasion of the common law; he never heard
anybody say in that House that that was a measure
which had done either good or harm.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed that there was more trouble pass-
ng the measure through that House than it had
caused to the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He had
:ertainly never yet heard any one complain that that
3ill had done any injustice. He believed that if the Go-
vernment governed Ireland firmly and justly, they would
:eel no alarm as to the result which that conduct would
rave on the people of that country. He believed that if
I hev put properly into force the common law, they would
no longer hear of the long catalogues of crime corn-
nitted in Ireland. The common law had been properly
put in force in this country, and it had been foetid to
lie sufficient. He believed, too, that the system of agi-
tation that was suffered to continue in Ireland tended,
in a great measure, to the commission of those fearful
outrages of which they were continually hearing. In
the years 1844 and 1845 hundreds of people attended at
the monster meetings. Great expectations, which have
riot been fulfilled, were held out to them. Disorganisation
eillowed—the people were thrown into despair—and
fearful number of outrages was the cons,quence. He had
looked very carefully over those returns, and he could
not find cut on what grounds the Government called upon
'he House to vote fur tli:s Bill. He believed that if they
meant to remedy the evils of Ireland, they could not effect
rt by coercive measures like this. He was one of those
mho thought that they could not amend the condition of
the people except they set about improving their social
condition. They must give them the means of being fed
..01 educated. He had-trespassed on the attention of the
House longer than he could have wished, but the subject
was of so much importance that he deemed it necessary
-0 state fully the reasons why he should vote against the
Bill. He had been at some pains in fully informing him-
-self on the question, and he came to the conclusion, that
•.he Government had not made out a case to justify the
.nactment of this measure. He believed, as far as he
.iould judge, that with a proper tribunal, properly used,
hey would be able to put down crime in Ireland. Let
them increase the police force in Ireland, as had been re-
.ommended by the inhabitants of the disturbed counties.
lie did not think that the Government had acted wisely
in attempting to conciliate first one political party and
subsequently another' He believed, that that policy
had not been beneficial to Ireland. He might be in
error, but he had given this subject a most careful con-
-ideration. It was true, he might have formed an erro-
neous conclusion. Five counties, it had been said, were
in a disturbed state, but he did not think that the House
would be justified in passing such a coercive measure as
his with regard to the whole of Ireland.—(Hear.) He
was one of those who regretted much that there was so
ouch difference between the legisletion with regard to
treland and England.—(Hear.) He wished that mea-
-ures of the same kind were brought forward for the
benefit of both countries. He believed that no person
upon earth would vote for this measure, if it were to
extend to England.—(flear.) He was determined to
vote for Irish measures on the same grounds as he
voted for English measures.—(Hear, hear.) New he
would not vote for such a measure as this for England
apon the evidence that had been laid before them, and
he was determined not to vote for this measure for Ire.
land on such evidence.—(Hear, hear.) He should,
therefore, vote against the second reading of this Bill.
Sir H. W. BARRON regretted that the persons
more immediately connected with the Government of
Ireland had not been in their places to have heard the
statements and arguments of the Hon. Member who had
just sat down. He considered his arguments were
formed upon Common sense, and were perfectly unan-
swerable. He did not think that any English Member,
not under the influence of the Ministry, would dare to
vote for the Bill in its original state. The Bill would
ie a complete failure, and would be a great source of an-
leyance to all parties. All measures of this nature had
failed, because they did not go to the root of the evil.
—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the disturbances
n Ireland were confined to two or three of
the midland counties in Ireland, and, in his opinion,
the common law was quite powerful enough to suppress
!hese outrages. If' the stipendiary magistracy and the
constabulary of the country were increased, they would
le able to put an end to these disgraceful scenes. It
was useless to say this could not be done. Within the
last ten years a.much greater disturbance had existed in
Clare ; this was put down by the exertions of the Exe-
cutive. It was contrary to the principLs of the British
constitution, to the dictates of common sense, and to
the feelings of humanity, to attempt to govern Ireland in
tnis manner. The Government must learn to govern
that country upon the same principles and by
the same laws by which she governed Ire-
lend. The present ' measure was only a sop
to a party in Ireland who considered that nothing but
coercive measures were to be adopted for some portion
their fellow countrymen. It was his opinion that the
Government sheuld provide the means of employment
for the people, c specially agricultural employment, esta-
Ash agricultural schools, and hold out inducements to
and lords to improve their estates, by advancing them sums
of money; they should also be assisted in the promotion
of their public works. The Government had hitherto
been very niggardly in their advances Le that country ;
these advances had also been punctually repaid ; and
what was the greatest injury of all was that the people
of Ireland had been compelled to pay 5
beenper cent. for
furf ir
the- e loans, while sums of monineyg
Englandat 3riaper cent.
Sir R. PEEL—What public works have had the
money at ‘,2 P
the promotiong
hand ; but from the returns .
k could be shown that
Sir fI. W. BARRON—lhwavheicnhothtihvee
hreettnurinasidinupmoyn
the table of the 'House, I thin
there were several, loans
how they were
per cent. With regard to the
Bill. he would •
questionha
Coercion been grianted. at 3
Irelandst to
eyg
wot
hvo
aeu
trlhidt
ah,
deltirbrhet
.elnearnnieinfdi:narteecirwithouton ad,
oduuvewieds he
biteliehe.exceedingly
. easy ifthetyo
followed up the spirit in which the Bills relating
d by the Secretary for Ireland.
tr
wouldgreat e deal ao
no f
harm,g" them to lay by coercion—
; on the contrary, .
it would do a
e'r'fcpeunbtl:c works
tahnd would create distrust and inimi-
cal feeling towards
but he conceived that tpholorysomonfleynt
the outrages in
pathy with the perpeetrat Government. Ho had no sym-
thing which Ireland,wouclpu
education, and sym-
down crime would be em
pathy with the wants of the people. He could assure
them that the miseries of Ireland could no-otn%remove d
rseof conciliation,
Government;
voenren,
mo rent
tw;oi,t owrotuhlrde et
aykeeaarsloonf
long
attentioncou
part of
and firmness in the discharge of justice:(Hear,
Ho would vote again it the , Bill, not 1.3),
on account of the manner in which it only
introduced to the House, but because he believed its
principle was bad. and he was convinced it was unneces •
sary. From the manner in which the Bill was intro-
duced he felt certain that the Government did not feel
that there was a necessity for the measure. It was
forced upon them by a party in Ireland ; for if it was not,
And the Government felt ti conscientious conviction of