The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-21 00:00:00

GROUP XIII.

for all the coal to be consumed there. He had made no deduction
for the farmers coming to market with their carts and bringing coals.
He had not calculated how many of the places in the table would be
nearer by the turnpike road than by railway, or that were likely still
to cart their coals. . .

Mr. Wright, manager of the Dalkeith collieries, was examined in
corroboration of the foregoing witness He had assisted Mr. Mositer
and Mr. Gibson in making up the tables submitted.
Cross-examined.—He gave evidence last year to the effect that
Hawick would be well supplied from the Midlothian coal-field, which
was a most extensive one. The country around Langholm was a
thinly populated country. He had estimated for Langholm and six
or seven miles round. He had also taken a circuit round liawick. The
country along the line was very thin till within three miles of
Hawick.
Mr. Renwick, a manufacturer and wool spinner at Langholm,was
generally examined, with the objoet of showing that the line in
question would be of great importance to his business in opening up
a connexion with the north and south. It would also be of consider-
able benefit to the town and neighbourhood.
Cross-examined.—He was the only manufacturer of this particular
kind in Langholm, and ke sent the most of his goods through liawick
to Glasgow. The steamers from Liverpool come to Jarman, because
they conid not come up the canal to Carlisle.
The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow at twelve o'clock.

'lees iteeinet to-day at twelve o'clock, Sir W it. Clay ii the
chair : the; e we. e also present, Earl Jermyn, Mr. P. Ainsworth, . r d
sir. eqrte' o •
NO R es BRITISH (CARLISLE EXTENSION).
Er:de3 .c behalf ef this line was resumed.
ear James ettraha in, 31. P., examined by Mr. dose Is, said his reel-
sletee .v Netinwee. The line before the Committee went for a
ceinfiectelee ores terettgh his property, between Canobie and Vat
:Isle. lie ::ad pad some attention to the scheme before the Cowie' -
tee, an 1 co thonele that the constelletion of the line would coteci
greet benefit en tee: district of country. et passed Ia• .gton in its
route. It trout,: I r of great advantage td Langtoe. Feld the sur-
rounding neeethoet esod. Langton had a popifee!ieft or about 2;000
inhabitants. - The peineipal manufacture there was hand loom
weaving. T. .0 use seers were supplied from Carlisle. Ife And his
eiredeceseers h ail hitherto opposed the establishment of manufeetures
ay Power, Q‘,4 having seen the destitution among the hatiel-
3oom is e.lYere, he now thought it desirable to establish manu-
facturing pov, er. The po-iierin of the Esk was not such as to
silew of the extensive aepileatioft of water power; he therefore
thought that team power was ,core desirable. In the establishment
cf that power he could o'ter great facilities ; and he believed that
with railway aeeommodaticn, orals could be laid down at Langton
ch.ca, et thee any port in the north of Engiand. He had every reason
to belie:u that the present line would not only ',e a great benefit to
Lenten and the neighboarhooe, but also to the eity of Carlisle. He
tit Butt think the Calecloree- an i Langholin br,u. eh would accommo-
date the district net. w eel; it would interfere injuriously
with las •tropertr, we: woaki cause the Canobie coal
to be s : e A u',' •telous way to Cat:isle. He had large
p , ee•-../.1. quarries, and the Caledonian branch
W title- ,- • ez7 et laccommodatienta the conveyance of
e't t etti :4.1e t *Oleic. The North Briti line, cn the other
hand, ront I n the neo,i. tect manner to Carlisle, Itioll,. the : out eof
*be turefplei road, awe efforded the fullest acco.nmo r.tol .o tie
clisbrlct ntreaugh which it passed. The district was at. 'ne count
agricalt. sr e one both ;or the raising of produce and the fee 1 rs,ot
sheep, eve was =malty improving. If accommodation by :ail.
way wag t u kte given, it ought to be on the left bank of the Esk. lie
also appr. eel of the extension of the line to llawick, as he thought
this the n.tiural line t* Edinburgh. It would be the shortest as wee
.as the beat.
Cress es amined by Mr. Sergeant Waaerenem—He had given his
attention to the whole scheme of railway accommodation for the
south of Scotland. He had last year assented to the Caledonian. It
went through l.:s property. He had heard that a line had been
senetioned tor a line to Glasgow by Dumfries. That would make,
with the wesent scheme, three lines to the centre of Scotland. Ile
had Aiwa:, s thought, however, that the traffic would only support
two hues. Still he considered the Caledonian should be satisfied
with the filasgow traffic, and that the Edinburgh main line
should go Ibtough Hewlett. The line by Hawick to Edinburgh was
the ino;r, tee, and lie eel ieved the shortest. He supported that
scheme teeeeme It would (teen np the vallies of the Esk and Tweed;
and ace:emit (elate the important and rising towns of Galashiels,
Hawick. ;eel eelkirk. On public grounds, therefore, he thought the
;present ti u. iesirable. 'fee line to Edinburgh by the Caledonian
,being e a 1.1 lost t t line also laid down, it would
ale detil't e a cite), • t to the Caledonian; and, there-
tore, to that 61 . injery to the public. If the
Neetisdele iill4 it n zi „Di a porelon of the Glasgow traffic, it
would te, *tie mor ;a . i't had once thought that railway competi-
tion was a great eve, I lie had seen reason to modify his views, and
to conclude neat I ter esed accommodation by railways developed
Waffle and eel eyed else public to travel to a greater extent ; so that
the evil .reeeeteene n 1 was not such as he once thought it to be. He
had lie:Teel tee opinion of the Board of Trade on the subject of com-
p oetteeeeese .1 he could 'i.e.), wsts, that there was traffic enough to sup-
p te. „et-. -to Edinbugh and another to Glasgow, but with regard to
mpeting line by Nithsdale, he had net considered the
lie did not know the capital that would be required for all
es, lie telly thought, generally, that one line to Glasgow,
d • • . Edinburgh, would pay ; but whether two to Edinburgh,
ito to Glasgow, competing with each other, would pay, was a
ct lee bad nut considered. Thee resent line went about
miles through his property. Caledonian bransh did
APPreaelt so near to Langton as Le Cafehae and Hawick, and
ere was the river hetweewthem. He had been told that the Cale-
onlart brarielt front Langhohn-to Carlisle was tiee miles longer than
he North etritlih Fekeeision. He had always fie:night the Caledonian
Jane from tea.: isle eff °jargon' very desirable, and would prove of
great puteie eitoefit. He bad Ward within the last month that the
newleeies_. el its entrance intn carlisle, crossed a thoroughare In
an ehlee!i;,/,‘ll;te manner.
Mr. Lairs, lector of several estates 1C eieele rghshlre, deposed
as to the at natural traffic of Roxburglishit P. 1 large amount of
the pro Thee went westward into Dumfriesshire. 1 t was generally
bought :et iv 'feelers, anti a good deal of it welt I to the English
market. .re:tirn of the grain, meal, and flour, that went west-
wart throng}: ilawick, was 4,714 tons.
Crosi.exantined—Of the 4,714 tons, a considerable portion went
into reollerea,le. He could not say what towns In Dumfriesshire
were stipplied with this produce, nor could he say who the parties
were that bought it. The lodderdale district, he belleved,was smith
wees..ot /lama. lie could not say that the district in question was
so thesoath east estreepeitolin.
To the tiA,reeseifie--110 aseertained the quantity of grain he men •
tlonee ,e eiunicating with the millers who attended the Hawick
na ,eeeet, eie, examining their returns as far as he could obtain them.
, cattle dealer of liaveick, examined by Mr. Sergeant
Beet. e 4'4 -lie occupied a sheep farm iee 1,000 acres in Roxburgh.
seir 3, so grazing farina in Ross-shire. He was also tenant of
A. fe seat near Edinburgh. It was his praetice to breed his sheep
ot i northern farms and then bring them to the eeeuthfor thepurpose
a , • lug and afterwards they were all sent toAnnan, Ceem whence they
ter e• • shipped to Liverpool. If sent by railway to Liverpool, they
w r aid arrive much sooner, and in much better condition. He sent
a t out 4,000 sheep and 400 cattle to Liverpool annually. There were
o her persons in Roxbureto hire and Berwickshire engaged in a
s I miler occupation with kis own. There were 450,1100 to 500,000 lean
sheep annually sold at the fairs in Roxburgh.shire, and he esthnated
that hilly terse-fourths of that number were sent to England. There
wore also 120,000 to 130,000 fat sheep annually sent to Newcastle.
Tito cost of beep Irons Kelso to Annan was Is. a head, and from
Annan to Liverpool 25., being Is. in all. Cattle cost to Annan Bs.,
and ft•out thence to Liverpool 10s., being I es. in all. He thought
about 15,000 tat sheep would go by this line through Carlisle, and
about 4,000 fat cattle. lie could not say what would be the amount
of lean cattle that would go, but lie considered a great amount
Would go.
Cross•examined by Mr. Ilickssee—He was the largest dealer in
the . district. Liverpool and Newcastle were his principal markets,
butte proportions he sent to these places varied. The largest coll-
imated/Ai was at Newcastle. There was a great consumption also
in Leeds ,and the other towns of Yorkshire. A great proportion of
the stock that went to Liverpool was consumed at Manchester. If
theliffsrentahied as they were, ands direct line was formed from New-
eewele to Manchester, no doubt a considerable amount of the stock
weasel go that way. It would, however, be a round- about comma •
vekwilon. A very considerable portion ortf
ilhe lean stock of Rox-
and the
Iturelislaire went to Skipton and the no
Newcastle route as far as he knew would be" Yorkshire,
that traffic. What would go by this line, wasainn 'wee
greatmm m6deaastirretoa
testi et of
guess.
Mr. Nelson, butcher of Glasgow, deposed that the east and II
latillans were the best feeding districts in the south of Scotland.-
'This district lay to the east of Edinburgh, between Dalkerth and
leaddingten, His evidence was goierally that, from his experience
0/carrying cattle, the fat and lean stock from the Lothians would
go br the proposed railway. He thought a large traffic in fat cattle
front the Lothians would take place along this line to supply the
, Liverpool, and Birmingham markets. There would
alasuteihesztter, we acted be a
arclae t ade in slaughtered meat.
eaat rsdu Probably considerable amount of the cattle
fro- n vitinhinaend-Tranneptali,vvoauyld. There dinburgh and pass to the
was little difference in the
synth by the Ca!edenla It
two routes, and therefore the Caledonian line would give accommo-
hbOrauarehnoot d without the construction
elation to e cattle of that neig
'Elf the pre,. (I‘ line. From 'lave
m.les.cattle going along the
With reference to the
eta/4a line sena save about
elanetteeret: efille, he gave evidence laestt 3goeianrgtshoauttht.he There were
would be a colt ma
nient route for that
a ;rent mimeo? i); would give thorn
around Edinburgh engaged In slaughter-
itig, aftd by gob Edinburgh, the Caledonian
•eood southern at commodietiOn• east of
The Fifeshire cattle would also be
:aecommodatwl by the Caledee4tAn line. The traffic to the
:England world be accommodated o 7
emel not considered whether there wow" be WWI for the
two rail-
the North British Railway. He
not room for
ways, though last year he" had deposed that bey
rest
the Caledonian xid the Dumfries schemes, an,: p
former. :eferred the
Mr. 3forton, mining engineer, said he had examined the to
.the Mein zegar!to minerals, and he had visited the Canobie--
fields. It was a !rNitful coal .field three miles by two, containing 5o
lea of woreelde coal in le seams. It had been but slightly worked.
The present seente re.) •ke I could be made available for a supply of
100,000 tone for /1) ears. According to boring, the whole of the
proved seams; whee give a tupply for 200 years. At present the
supply was 25,00 • tans a year, at Os. 4d. at the pit mouth. Of this
quantity Hawke. took about 7,000 tens a year. If the railway were
ionned It could be laid down in Hawick at 9s. Id. a ton. There was
also an extensive limestone bed worked near to Canobie. die had
made a tattle which would be put in, of what would be the price of
coal at various points along the line assuming the carriage to be ljed.
per ton per tette, coals from Mid-Lothian would cost at Ilawick
123. flit

Cross-examined- Last year he corroborated the evidence of Mr.
'.Wright, which took credit for Ilawiek being supplied with coal from
ILLI-Lothian. That was, he believed, a considerable item in the
watiumatee of the line from Edinburgh to Ilawick. The coal sold at
the 01 movth i- .41al'°bIe was just as it came from out of It e mine,
unsorted. With i lime ti tun Canobie to Dumfries, aad another to
Hayrick, no don.: the p:lce of the coal would rise. Tha present
price at Clutobie m cull not, therefore, present what It would be
under the other ci ,1111 a ences referral to. He could not say what
h lktehde o
amountt 't,ooo
Ilse Berwiok coal ci i5...1 I c supplied. In Hawick for. The entire eon-
MillptiOn Of coal lae
) ear was 7,000 tons.
(The witness was here subjected to
tons going to IlawiglTa .en3iCa.
anr obie, he merely Wen he
guesses t
to be such for the pt f.
a clo,e scrutiny on t' -e table he had furnished, with the object of
zhow'ng that the odes& cot the coal traffic was greatly exaggerated).
mr. tomm, manager of the Canonbre colliery, generally corro-
borstal the evidence et the previous witness with regard to the
raluotel traffic. Coa a were taken to Hawick in carts, and provi-
sions brought baek for Canonbie. One hundred carts were thus
e-n d seed. The coal sold at the pit's Mouth was unsorted and un-
dad' al. Just as it mile to the pit's mouth. Coal had at one time
hdea fi opal at Carlisle.
Jr is. examined--They no% e, had had any shipments of Canonbie
%el,: r t Annals; buti I VI.: ,at l was better adapted for shipping than
caft:i.,4 it would '3:., esligilile for that purpose. In making up
the ~,, Mc table • , 1..e.i taken all places! on each side of
theist -v,' Y. that Iv 1 iN...yen miles beyoud Catiohie. I.angholin was
a usNzWet town abo. t tevkai irllesfroru Canobie, v -.t lie had efitiMated

4',

. .

4-

THE SITN, LONDON, TTITTRSDAY EVENING, MAY 21, 1846.

TATTERSALL'S-THIS EVENING.
Six o'CLoc►:.

DERBY.
4 to 1 agst Sir 'Litton Sykes
7 to 1 agst Torn TuHock
10 to 1 agst Faucy Boy
11 to 1 aget Humdrum
20 to 1 agst Peri colt
20 to 1 agst Pyri hos the First
20 to 1 agst The Conjuror.
25 to I agst Crown Prince
28 to 1 agst The Premier
50 to 1 aget Twig
50 to 1 agst Malcolm
Sting not mentioned.
OAKS.
7 to 1 agst Vanish.
7 to 1 agst Mendicant
10 to 1 abet Sister to Balliakeele (Perdita filly)

(FROM A CORRESPONDENT.)-Mr. Woodman's Derby
horse Landsurveyor, arrived yesterday by the Birmingham
train, on his way to Epsom.

IMPERIAL. PARLIAMENT.
(THIS EVENING.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAKER, took the Chair at Four o'clock.
METROPOLITAN SEWAGE MANURE COMPANY.

Colonel WOOD moved the second reading of this Bill, and
stated that a misunderstanding existed with respect to the mode
in which the operations of this company were intended fo be
conducted. The company were quite willing to have a clause
inserted in their Bill by which the Commissioners of Sewers
would be empowered to divert, alter, or make any
corrections in the sewers. The reservoirs would not be open
spaces, but would be inclosed and secluded from the atmos-
phere, so that no contagion could be communicated to the sur-
rounding neighbourhood.
Mr. MANNERS SUTTON believed that all the papers
connected with the Sewage Manure Company had nut, in the
first instance, been deposited in the Private Bill-office.
Colonel WOOD thought that no advantage ought to be taken
of an unimportant omission to prevent the second reading.
Mr. ETWALL asked if it was for a mere speculation that
powers were to be given to a body of individuals to concentrate
all the filth of London in a neighbourhood where it would be a
nuisance to the inhabitant!.

Sir R. INGLIS thought it desirable to postpone the second
reading of the Bill until the opinion of the gentlemen who had
been appointed to investigate the matter should have been
ascertained. He should move, therefore, that the second
reading be postponed for a week.
Mr. MANNERS SUTTON thought that the proposed plan
would be inconsistent if it contemplated any alteration or
interference with the present sewage of the metropolis.
His Hon. and Gallant Friend had stated that he thought it
most unfair that the Government should oppose the Bill on
account of the report that had been laid before the House, inas-
much as certain papers had been withheld from them. He
( Mr. Sutton) admitted that certain papers had not been laid
before them—those papers were not withheld but mislaid. But
the plan of the promoters was, according to their own showing,
most objectionable.—( Hear.) The second report of the gentle-
men to whom this matter was referred stated that they thought
that with certain alterations, which they specified in their re-
port, no danger would accrue to the public if the Bill were
passed. They also stated that, with certain reservations, the
carrying out of this plan might not occasion any general
alteration in the sewers. If those two points were made out
to the satisfaction of the Government they would not oppose the
Bill ; but if they did give it their sanction, it must be on the
understanding that by so doing they must not be precluded
from approving of any other more comprehensive scheme
which might be brought under the consideration of the House
at any future period.
Mr. R. YORKE opposed the Bill. One fact at once ad-
mitted the imperfection of the scheme—namely, that since last
Thursday the company proposed to remove two of their
clauses. These clauses were proposed to be excluded from the
pressure on the company from without since Thursday last.
The Honourable Gentleman who now represented the
northern district of Lincolnshire, but who, some years
since represented the city of Edinburgh, allowed a project
similar to the present one to be carried, and the citizens of
Edinburgh, though much annoyed, had no means of getting
rid of the nuisance. It was impossible to pass the Bill in its
present state without further inquisition, and at any
rate the House should adopt the . recommendation
of the Honourable Member for Oxford with reference to the
committee, and he should be quite content with such a course,
but under the existing circumstances he felt it to be his duty
to move that the Bill be read that day six months.
Lord R. GROSVENOR begged the House to permit this
Bill to be read a second time. He had heard all the objections
that had been raised to this Bill, including the scientific objec-
tions, and the principal one relative to the river, all of which
he thought had been disposed of, and he trusted the House
would not act in so narrow-minded a manner as to refuse the
second reading of the Bill on the grounds that had been stated.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER agreed with the Hon. Baronet the
Member for the University of Oxford, that the second reading
of the Bill should be postponed for a week, in order that the
Government might have further time to consider the subject.
He had heard nothing in the course of this discussion that, in
his opinion, should induce them to accede to a second
reading of the Bill, because he was of opinion that the
works which lit sought to construct, would not be for the
public advantage, but for the purposes of private
speculation and emolument. He thought on that
ground they ought to defer its second reading for a week.
lhose on whose land the soil was emptied had a perfect right
to use that soil if they thought proper for the cultivation of
their land. He concluded by moving as an amendment, that
the second reading of the Bill be postponed until this day week.
Mr. HA WES considered this a very important Bill, because
it had a great public object in view—and, therefore, he
doubted its success. The objects of the Bill are, first, to
improve the drainage of London ; and, secondly, to free the
Thames from the filth which the sewage carried into it,
which, instead of being lost, as now, would be carried in
another direction, and subsequently applied to the
cultivation of land. Well, then, the subject or
object of the Bill being important, but the machinery being
unsatisfactory, it might fairly be referred altogether to a Select
Committee to report generally upon the object and details of
the Bill.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. ELLIOT YORKE, as one of the inhabitants of the
district about to be affected by these works, said he must pro-
test egging the Bill, and expresss a hope, on behalf of the
whole of the inhabitants of his neighbourhood, that the House
would not allow it to be read a second time.
_ _

Dr. BOWRING could not see any harm that couli arise
foul the second reading of the Bill and their going into
=mime on it. Seeing that the Bill was desirable they
ought to go into Committee, when they could fully inquire into
its merits, and see whether there was really any foundation for
the objections that had been made. _
sir DE Cl EVANS could not see any force in the ob-
jections ti.sit had been tpii-dP, There WU 'now great difficulty
in recognising the original features of the Dill, there had been
so many changes made in it ip deference to parties who started
objections to it. The 6th and 18th clauses had already been
altered, but that it seemed did not satisfy the parties opposed to it.
The Bill Ives for carrying off the liquid and not the solid con-
tents, and there would be, consequently, a large deposit at
Vauxhall-bridge. It was well known that in the parish of St.
John's and St. Margaret's great injury was inflicted by these
deposits. He did not wish to offer any factious opposition to
the Bill, and he would consequently suggest to his Hon. Friend
that the motion should be withdrawn.
Mr. FIUME said there could not be a subject of more Isn.,
portance to the psi ropolis than this. He had no hesitation in
saying that it was a subject tliat had only been partially consi.
dered and acted upon—( Hear, hear)—and that the proposi-
tion of the Honourable Member for Lambeth was the 394nd
and proper courie,—( Hear, hear.) Full information should be
obtained on this subject, and he had no objection, therefore, to
the appointment 'of _ a special pfimmittep.-.4 pcmtp ittei
of 15 not of s—( Hear, hear)—to take the wlsole subjept into
consideration. :He must say, in answer to the Hon. Gentleman,
the Under Secretary of State, that he was very much
surprised that he should oppo: this Bill after the
letter he had read to the Ilouse. That Hon. Gentler
man should recollect that it was the intention of the

Government, as far back as ten years, to have sur-
veyed the whole of the metropolis, for the purpose of intro-
ducing such a measure as this. Vie hoped, therefore,
that a special Committee would be appointed to take into con,
sideration the objects of the Bill, and afterwards make
.a full
report to the House.
Mr. MARK PHILLIPS thought that's sufficient case had
not been made out for the appointment of a Committee.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT would accede to the proposition
of the Right Hon. Baronet Sir Robert Peel, that the Bill be
referred to a Select Committee.
Colonel WOOD concurred in the opinions expressed by the
Secretary at War and the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER was understoud to say that he would
withdraw his motion.
After a few words from Mr. Hawes, Mr. Hume, and Sir G.
Grey, which did not reach the gallery, in consequence of the
contusion prevailing in the House,
The debate was adjourned until to-morrow.

Mr. WAKLEY said that the House should take a more de.
cided course on a question of this importance.—(Cries of
" Chair, chair,"
__ and " Order.")
The SPEAKER reminded the Hon. Member that there
was no question then before the House.