The Sun.
London, England, 1848-05-16 00:00:00

EVENING, MAY 16, 1848.

son,of the present laws; that rates were too higo,,,or,
that freights were too scarce. The only reason assigaea:
for this measure was that Prussia, forsooth, was inter-
fering with our trade. Prussia was the country of
which the Right Hon. Baronet below him some
time since declared that she " was coming round "
—(A laugh)—that she was about to adopt our free-
trade system, and to adopt to the full all that the advo-
cates of that system had proposed. The Right, Hon.
Gentleman had told them a story about a ship which
had gone to the Canary Islands for cochineal, and on
which freights amounting to 6d. a lb. had been charged.
Why, 6d. a lb. was about 561. a ton, and would any one
believe that at half such a rate as that plenty of suitable
ships could not have been found ready in British ports
to go to the Canary Islands for >< freight? Why, even
" the marines," for whom the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman evidently intended that story, could scarcely be
expected to believe it.--(Laughter.) Then the Right
Honourable Gentleman had referred to the characters
of our mercantile marine, and had talked of their im-
moral and other vicious practices. He was not there to
say that among twenty thousand men brought up to an
arduous profession there might not be found many of
immoral and vicious character; but let them ask the in-
surance offices what they thought of the character of our
seamen, and they would tell them that they insured
British ships cheaper than any others, because of the
brave conduct of our sailors. Then as to accidents at
sea: why all the returns before them proved that a far
larger proportion of American vessels were wrecked and
e
stranded than those of vessels blungi
England. But then the state of ong
u mercantile
ports in
was referred to, and Sir Jenses Stirling'sr opinions were
quoted. Sir J. Stirling's practice, however, was op-
posed to his principles; for in the Hound, the vessel he
commanded, the greater proportion of the men had never
been in the navy at all. The Right Hon. Gentleman
had not attempted to tell them how it would be proposed
to man the navy if the security we
possessed was
done away with. It was
remarkable that no member
of the Government had ventured yet to say what he ex-
pected to result from the operation of these measures.
The Hon. Gentleman opposite said
it would be a most
beneficial measure to the British trade. How increased
competition would benefit that trade he
could
George
Bentinck) could not see; but he cousee that it
would be a measure for the benefit of p
shipping, and f
or the great advantage of the
com-
merce of the United States. If the
e Government
knew nothing of the advantage it would
confer o
that country, at least the United States' Ministell.
knew it, for to-night he bad attended most carefully t,
the debate. A return had been cited of the ships eint
ployed and the revenue derived from the protected and
unprotected trade of Great Britain. How was that re;-
turn made out? Our trade with China was included ai
an unprotected trade? as if we wanted protection against
junks and bamboo bottoms. Our trade with Mexico
was also cited, though Mexico had no marine of her
own. If they had looked, however, at other branches
of our general trade, they would have found that the
theory of this return wail scarcely borne out.. Take the
British West India trade, which was one of the least
protected of all branches of our trade, and they would
find there constant decline and constant disappointment.
The returns, in fact, were calculated and meant to de-
ceive.—(Hear, hear.) And now let him ask what did
the Government expect would be the diminution of the
cost of freights under this new system? In a
newspaper article written by one of the members
of the Government, they were told that 2s. 6d. a ton
was to be the saving derived by the consumers of
this country. The question, therefore, came to this.
Was the House, before they saw something more of the
working of this free-trade system, prepared to make a
sacrifice of at leust a million a year, at present paid to
British shipowners ?—(Hear, hear.) During a very
recent period her Majesty's Government and the Times
newspaper raised great alarms about the probable rate
of freights in bringing over corn; and the navigation-,
laws Isad,•in consequence, been, suspended. But-it had
now been proved that that measure was unnecessary;
and not seeing that any substantial reason had been
given for continuing to act upon its principle, he should
certainly give the present measure all the opposition
possible. He had only one word further to say, and that
related to the effect of this measure in our colonies. It
was his belief that our colonial trade would, if it passed,
be thrown entirely into the hands of the Americans. He
predicted the most disastrous consequences to the em-
pire from this circumstance.
Mr. J. L. RICARDO could hardly reconcile some of
the statements made by the Noble Lord. What he had
said with regard to the, great proportion in the loss of
American vessels over English ones, could be easily
accounted for. The time to which his Lordship referred
was one of great pressure, and when it was found ne-
cessary to send a large number of vessels upon the
service. With regard to what had been said by the
Noble Lord respecting the advantages ~which an open
trade would give to the United Stated; lie begged
entirely to disagree. He did not anticipate that any
such effect would take place. It was a fact, that where-
as the United States' ships were the dearest built and
manned of any in the world, by the arrangement
which this country now had with them they monopo-
lised two-thirds of the trade ; and that whereas Prussia,
having her ships built and manned more cheaply
than any other country, was obliged to give us
the whole trade between that country and this. The
Noble Lord had stated that the Government had brought
forward the measure on feeble grounds, and that the
merchants and manufacturers of the country had no
grievance to complain of. He (Mr. Ricardo) confessed
that when he considered that the Noble Lord himself
had begun by pointing out one grievance that he was
ready to give up, he (:dr. Ricardo) could not understand
how the Noble Lord could maintain the non- existence
of grounds of complaint. The Noble Lord baying
given up the point respecting the Lascars, how stood the
case? Last year there was a great scarcity of raw ma-
terial and manufactures, and idleness, and consequently
distress, ensued. At that very time there was great
commercial distress in this country; failures were taking
place on every side, and, amongst others, an old-este-
blished house in Newcastle failed, as they stated in the
circuler issued to their creditors, entirely on account of
-the state of the East India trade. He wished to point
out the fact to them, that while such was the state of
affairs in England—while the operatives in the
manufacturing districts were starving for want
of raw material—while merchants were becoming
bankrupt to support the monopoly of ship-
owners—those very Lascars were manning the vessels of
this country to support that very monopoly. He would
maintain that if those ships which were ready to bring
those commodities, which would have saved the opera-
tives of this country from starvation and her merchants
from bankruptcy, instead of being built of Indian wood
and manned by Indian men, had been built in the
United States and manned by Americans, the injustice
would have been equally great, the oppression equally
tyrannical. The evil consisted not in the trade which
was injured, but in the trade which was entirely stopped
by the restrictions of which he complained. He would
take the case of Australia. There were in this country
hundreds and thousands of people unemployed, and
anxious to go anywhere where they could find employ-
ment; there were in Australia thousands of acres un-
cultivated from want of people to -ultivate; but there
was in this country a navigation-law which would not
allow them to go there. It was stated to the Com-
mittee upon that subject that there was a great deal
of emigration taking place to Australia. Tho between
deck fare to that place by the Bremen ships was ra-
ther below 121., and the charge from this country
varied between 20/. and 25/.; and, moreover, it was
stated that if there was any preference to be given to the
vessels of either side in point of accommodation, that
the difference was in favour of the Bremen ships. After
such a contrast as he had shown, he asked where was
there the justification for preseving such a law? It was
a great grievance for a merchant to know that his com-
petitor in Germany was enabled to purchase cheaper
than himself, while, when he met him in the market
with the manufactured article, he was compellefi to sell
it on equal terms. Bet the magnitude of the mischief
was even greater than it appeared; it was not found out
until some change of circumstances forced it upon public
attention. There was a beaten track, and whenever it
was tried to escape from it then the navieation-laws
were heard of. He would take the case of Java. As
soon as that House had opened the trade, some of our
merchants sent out their English manufactures; the
ships were obliged to go away and, bring back other
cargoes, being compelled to trust to some other ship to
bring back their cargoes from the island. It happened
that there were several ships, but no British ships, at
the place, so that the cargo could not be brought
back ; and the merchants, finding the inconve-
nience thus entailed on them, abandoned the trade
altogether. Such was the case with copper ore. They
were obliged to have a particular ship to bring it, or
they could not bring it at all. A measure had been
passed in that House to let in copper ore free of duty.
Now he knew the case of a merchant who had a large
amount of that ore at Java which he desired to bring
to this country, but in consequence of the law he found
that in order to do so he would be obliged to send it back
to Chili in the first place. He considered the restriction
to involve an unjustifiable sacrifice which, unless some
great and sufficient reason was shown for its continuance,
was altogether inexcusable. The object which they had
in view was expressed. in the title of the Bill," An Act
for the encouragement of the commercial marine, with a
view to manning the Royal Navy." Surely after 200
years of encouragement the navy of this country must
be a model to the navies of other nations.—(gear, hear.)
There was a document that had been laid on the table,
which was a report from official gentletne
appointed by successive Administrations, of n
n
particular political bias, and having no
onbilenc°t is siew but ,to give information to the Forei
It was written from all parts of the world, wittno-ut any
possible means of communication on the part of the e
spective gentlemen; but, nevertheless, there could not be
a more unanimous opinion than was contained in that
document—that the two hundred years of encouragementfii
to the commercial marine had resulted in its
superiority over other nations. The Noble Lord
would
forgive him if he said that he would rather trust to the
gentlemen who had drawn up the report than to the
Noble Lord himself for a true opinion on the
matter.
No man recognised more fully than he the importance of
keeping up the defensive resources of the country, and if
the manner of the defensive navy depended the
commercial marine, the sooner its constitution was
altered the better, for it leant on a broken reed. Al-
though these liws might be hallowed by time, yet they
ought to examine and investigate them, instead of taking
their beauties on trust, or they might be reduced to the
condition of the frogs in the fable to whom Jupiter sent
a king, whom they regarded for some time with much
admiration on account of the splash he made in the
water, but whom on inspection at last they found to be
a mere log.—(Hear.)
opposed the proposition of the Right
Mr. HENLEY
Honourable Gentleman. The Hon. Member who spoke
last had got up a case of abuse against merchant seamen
is general, and be bad rested his "Is mainly on a blue-

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;book, in which, at all events, there was a considerable
,:number of contradictory statements. He would no more
think of estimating the character of an entire people by
the language applied by the magistrates of a country to
the thieves 'brought before them, than he would of form.
ing his opinion of the character and habits of seamen
from evidence contained in a blue-book.—(Hear, hear.)
What, he would ask,
,was the rate of insurance at Lloyd's
for these ships, manned, according to the Honourable
Gentleman, with such dissolute crews and such ignorant
captains P Why he found that merchants could get
their goods insured in_ these ships for less than they
ones.—(Hear, in foreign ones.ear, hear.) Those Gentlemen
who cried down the merchant service would do well to
hear in mind the source from which the British navy
was then manned.—(Hear, hear.) That navy beet
everything it encountered, and it was manned principally
from the merchant
.service.—(Hear, hear.)'hear.)''And he had
a firm confidence that if war were to commence again, in
spits of the unjust imputations lavished on these men
1,3 y the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, these men
would again do their duty equally well to their Queen
and country. (Cheers.)
Mr. MITCHELL cited some casettof the unfair work-
.

ng of the present law, and the injury done to the
trading interests by it. These special cases of injury,
however, were necessarily few in number, because these
laws had existed for more than 200 years, and few per-
sons indeed would think of bringing over goods to this
country in opposition to the course prescribed by them.
There was one statement made by the Hon. Member
for Oxford, which he could contradict—that goods on
foreign vessels were insured at a cheaper rate than if on
English bottoms. Now, his conviction
.wasi that Eng-
lish, on Lhe whole, were better than foreign ships. He
was satisfied that the first class English vessels, such as
those
ensured
engagedat
lower
nthr the East
thanlnd any India and trade,
be might
ships.
The
reason was obvious ; for not only, were the ships better,
but their captains were educated men, well qualified to
guard the interests of the owner, and to protect
teteecnttrthusepd tero-
perty of the merchants whose freights were
their care. It happened that in other vessels the captains
brought from before the mast, and
were principally men
a ship at sea in a
who, though well able to
managewhen
conductn e.
n shore.
He
sh 0
uolde
to
storm, ,a
nwe re
examplewholltyn
their
be glad to see in the merchant service of
.this country
on board a merchant
the command, or even as mate,
them states of Europe, where no man was admitted to
not merely in
ship until he had passed an examination,
of the educe.-
of exchanges, and in most of the branches .
navigation buein the knowledge of languages,the :rulee
t be struck
vtiiosinteodf
haygeeariptlteaminasn.ef.l4l2moeorenheaysn-htosslicpotaintutinugs-.house was,
crewsPetenwt
with the manifest difference between those of the Eng-
lish and those of fhe foreign mercantile service. He had'
himself found that in 200 charter parties which came
bef ore him in the course of a year, there was scarcely
one
to which the signature of an English captain
legible. • red
P
and his ro these causes the shiwner was Kau
the navigationertrawjesopaanrdlitshevd4plrte
nt hadiee
sbhei
pe ns3snsitde mthwawet wrief -
abolished, there
ythienree would be no means of manning the
contended that the saane cifeadlWlnacru. difficulty would arise under the
present system, for suchm was the Now
wbehre o(fMiarp.pMreintcthi that there was a surplusage of able-bodied seamen, wir
entboroutghhet back service. How
could
werethat dr i v
surplusen
whole, if he could think that
-laws, he should
affrase of wart On tho
the changes
shipping would
changes now sustain the slightest injury from
pro-
posed in the navigation-laws,
adopting those changes ; but be
Was be very chary in
good management would arise from the convinced that
spirit of compe-
tition which these changes ;would create * bad
would be got rid of, and activity and dispatch habits
would be
inculcated.
Captain HARRIS remarked that he had heard' no-
thing in the course of this discussion to induce him Ito
withdraw the notice he had given before the Speaker left
the chair, of his intention to move, when the Chairman
reported progress, that the Committee should not pit
again until the report of the Lords' Committee was laid
before the House. He did not wish to interfere unne-
cessarily, but he must say a word or two in relation; to
the question of the commercial marine being the nursery
for the service of the royal navy, and therefore for the
maintenance of the national defences. On this sukkt
—though many naval officers had volunteered to gire
their evidence—only one, Sir James Stirling, had been
examined before the Select Committee appointed at the
instance of the Hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. J. L.
Ricardo). He should be glad to have an explanatio4 of
that circumstance, because he took exception to many
parts of Sir James Stirling's evidence. That Gallant
Officer, for whom he entertained the highest respect, had
stated that of the seamen in the royal navy not more than
one-tenth had been brought up in the merchant ser-
vice. This was negatived by returns made by ,the
registrar of seamen, which be (Captain Harris) held in
his hand ; and which showed a totally different state of
facts, not only with regard to the ship Sir James Stir-
ling himself commanded at the time he gave his evi-
dence. but with reference to the crews of the Howe,
the Leander, and the Amphitrite, all of which had been
put into commission within the last year. If a state-
ment made by Sir J. Stirling were true, namely, that
out of 20,000 men in the royal navy, only 1,000 were
brought up in the commercial service, there would be
at once an end of the whole question, as far as the navi-
gation-laws were concerned. The only observation he
had to make on that statement was, that it was utterly
incredible, and could not by possibility be well founded.
His own personal experience led him to form a directly
opposite conclusion, for recently, on a visit to Spithead,
he had found no smaller a proportion than two to one of
the seamen on board the Monarch and other ships lying
there who had been brought up in the merchant service.
—(Hear.) lie entreated Hon. Metnix rs, before voting
on these resolutions, to wait for the report of the Lords'
Committee on the navigation-laws. He hoped the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would adjourn the
iurther consideration of his resolution till that Commit-
tee had reported.
Mr.LA BOUCHERE said he could not consent to this
course, which would be altogether unworthy of this
House. If any Hon. Gentleman dissented from the reso-
lution, be could express that dissent in the usual way.
He now proposed to adjourn the further consideration of
the resolution till Monday next. A message had been
sent to the other House, requesting that when the evi-
dence of their Committee was reported, it might be com-
municated to this llouse.
Mr. HUDSON wished a postponement for a fortnight,
on account of the great importance of the subject. Look-
ing at the business before the House, the Health of
Towns Bill and other measures, it was probable that this
would' not occasion greater delay. Only two petitions
had been as yet presented in favour of any change in the
navigation-laws.
Mr. LABOUCHERE—I presented four myself.
Mr. HUDSON read from a return which stated
that up to the 10th of May only two such petitions
had been presented. The Right Honourable Gentle-
man had strongly abused the mercantile navy of the
country. This reminded him of the celebrated instruc-
tions to a learned counsel—" No case, but 'please
to abuse the plaintiff's attorney."—(Loud laughter.)
He knew, notwithstanding the Right Hon. Gentleman's
abuse, that the mercantile navy lived in the esteem and
affections of the people of this country.—(Hear,hear.)
The Right lion. Gentleman had admitted that British-
built ships were the best, and that British sailors were
the best sailors ; but this was a question which did not
depend on the quality of our ships or the excellence
of our sailors. He had, therefore, read with great.regret
the disparagement of our shipping by some of the con-
suls ; perhaps the reason might be that they were
largely interested in foreign shipping. He was confident
that the borough he represented, one of the largest ports
in the kingdom, would strongly deprecate this measure.
The Right lion. Gentleman had said that ship-building
might be carried on without protection as well as other
manufactures, but he seemed to have forgotten that the
cotton and other manufactures were protected by 'a duty
on foreign products. When the free-trade measures were
proposed, two years ago, they were held out as the
greatest blessings that could be devised; he should be glad
to know what benefits had been derived from them. The
further free-trade proposal now made would entail utter
ruin on the shipping trade; and though it might be true
that the best article was the cheapest in the long run,
it was not every one who could afford to buy the best
article; and the probability was that ship-building would
almost •
entirely leave this country. He 'earnestly hoped
that the Right Hon. Gentleman would defer this reso-
lution for at least a fortnight, which would scateely be
sufficient time for the House to dispose of the ponderous
Health of Towns Bill.
Mr. LABOUCHERE had no wish to press the matter
unduly; but as this was only a resolution on which a
Bill was to be founded, he thought it not unreasonable
to ask the House to resume its consideration this day
week—anxious, as he was, that the Bill should become
law in the present session .—(Hear, hear.) As to the
mercantile marine, he had passed no sweeping censure
upon it. Admitting the skill, courage, and able sea-
manship of the men, he had stated, on the authority of
unquestionable returns, that the shipmasters were defi-
cient in the requisite qualifications; and in making this
statement he thought himself a much better friend to the
mercantile marine than any one who would withdraw
attention from the fact.—(Hear, hear.) 'ln the China
and India, and other trades, he believed the qualifica-
tions of the masters were most unexceptionable; but in
other trades, their deficiency in skill, and the conse-
quent want of discipline, were producing deplorable
consequences, which could not too soon be brought under
the notice of the House.---(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUDSON said if the attacks made by these con-
suls were listened to, no man's character would be"te-
Dr. BOWRING moved that the Chairman should re-
port progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Lord INGESTRE said this would be a very
incon-
venient Course. Let the House wait the ,result of
other House;
the inquiry before the Committee of for the
that would be much less derogatory to their dignity than
to hurry on a discussion of this kind. The navigation-
_ommonweelth, and
navigation-
laws dated from the time 0
f the Commonwealth,
due deliberation,
ought not to- be got rid of
He demanded that time should be given, and should
Government
would not consent
divide the House if the
to postpone the matter for fortnight.
The motion that the h
a C irman do report'
progress
and ask
sion,then resumed.
and the House d
Captain HARRIS then moved that the debate be
postponed until that day fortnight.
The Marquis of Granby supported the amendment,
as did Mr. Alderman Thompson, Mr. Wawn, and Mr. W.
Miles.
Mr. LABOUCHERE felt bound to oppose the amend-
ment, for he could not consent to any course calculated
to prevent the measure from passing into law, if such
were the pleasure of the Rouse, during the present
session.
Mr. HUDSON asked why, if the Government were
so earnest to pass the measure this session, they had not
introduced it at an earlier period ?
.

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