The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-30 00:00:00

THE -CONSOLIDATED FUND (4,000,0001.) BILL.
This Bill was. also read a second time.

BATHS AND WASHHOUSES (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill was read a second time and ordered to be com.
mitted.

NEWFOUNDLAND BILL.

The report on this Bill was received and agreed to, and
it was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.

THE BURIAL SERVICE (No. 2) BILL.
This Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be read a
third time to-morrow.
MILITIA BALLOT SUSPENSION BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
EAST HEMPSTEAD UNION IN BERKS.

Captain PECHELL called the attention of the House to
the petition of the guardians of the East Hempstead Union
in Berke, complaining of the conduct of the Poor-law Com-
missioners, and hoping that steps would be taken to inquire
into and restrain the authority of the officials at
Somerset House. He would content himself at present with
moving for copies of all correspondence that bad passed be-
tween the rate-payers of that union and the Poor-law Com-
missioners.—Agreed to.
EPISCOPAL REVENUES. _

Mr. FREWEN obtained leave' to bring in a Bill to provide
for the better regulation of episcopal revenues and dioceses.
The House then adjourned at Half-past Four o'clock.

RAILWAY COMMITTEES

ESTERDAY)

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Room C.
RENT ATMOSPHERIC.

The Committee re-assembled this morning, the Earl of Devon in

the chair, when
Mr. Cubitt was examined at very great length on the gradients,
and the several features of the peculiar line of the Atmospheric
Company. At present there were thirty-nlue trains per day
ever the Croydon line. Considerable stress was laid upon the
fact of Mr. Cubitt having laid down a line from Croydon to Ashford,
the object tK,lng to shorten the distance between Tunbridge and
Ashford, by using a part of the Reigate line. There had been some
agreement with the South-Eastern Company, which had
passed off, but the differences had lasted for some time,
and it was in consequence of those differences that
Mr. Cubitt was int:aced to leave the service of the
South-Eastern Company. An examination ensued on this point,
and on the means of getting to Dover without going to Ashford.
After some further details,

Mr. Austin replied, and stated that If it was true, as stated by Mr.
Wilkinson, that the South Eastern Company had stolen the lines,
they were at least surveyed by their own engineers. Let him look
through the course of the line. There was a common starting point
at the Surrey Canal ; from thence to Lewisham was a mile- and-a-
half, and then there was a double scheme, that of the North Rtnt
and the Mid Kent Companies; then there was a mile-and-a-half to
Bromley. Now, it had occurred to his experience, that common
sense was, in spite of engineering ability, actually the best guide ;
and there common sense showed that it was better to have an esta-
blished line on a good gradient rather than bad. The Kent Atmo-
spheric Company left the Croydon line in a cutting of sixteen feet on
a gradient of lin 100. Then there was the Tunbridge tunnel, where
the Kent Atmospheric Company had committed the great sin on
their line, and a sin committed with their eyes open. There, the
tunneling of the Scuth-Eastern Company was 1,100 yards longer
than the Kent Atmospheric Company, but then the gradient of the
South-Eastern Company was only I in 102, while the gradient of the
Atmospheric Company was 1 in 80. Then came the point of the
Riverhead and the Sevenoaks station, and whether the inhabitants
were going up or downwards, the accommodation was still better.
By the South Eastern line, the station of Sevenoaks was only half- a-
mile, while on the other line it was three quarters of a mile. Then how
did the opposing Company propose to accommodate the other places
on the line. Riverhead was a most important station; and look at
the country ; and if they did so, they would find that the whole
of the population was westward, in the trough of the country ; and
if the Sevenoaks station were to be taken, the whole of those people
Would have to go round by the high road. Mr. Stephenson, by
throwing out this span to Sevenoaks, had given a better accommo-
to all parts of the country except Sevenoaks?
_ .

ThO Earl of Devon wished AO knew what difference there was be-

pa en the two stations with reference to Sevenoak.s ?

Mr. AUSTIN continued by stating that there was to be no station
at Sevenoaks, but there would be a means of communication which
would satisfy all the requirements of the district. Then, with regard
to the works, the cuttings, and the tunnellings, they were quite in
favour of the South-Eastern line. A person who was secretary to
the Company, positively stated that the Sevenoaks trade had no
connexion whatever with any other place. Then, going to Tun-
bridge, they were four miles longer. Then, with respect to Mr.
Brown's evidence, he was well aware of the work which might have
been made with that evidence. This was not the first time that he

had met Mr. Brown, and he was quite assured that if any one had
been put forward competent to dissect that statement with rapidity,

it would have been, as it had been in the Commons, quite upset
to the knowledge of every man about him, and ail
the imputations against the South-Eastern Company would have been
entirely neutralised. Then he came to Tunbridge, and the question
presented itself which regarded the accommodation of the Mid Kent
district. To this the Atmospheric Company had no pretension what-
ever, while the South-Eastern Company had a station—an excellent
one—at the principal town in Kent. From Maidstone the South-
Eastern Company ran to Ashford. lie had said that he would save
the Kent Atmospheric Company from the indiscretion of leaving
Maidstone out of the communication; that was the real reason for the
abandonment of the line from Maidstone to Ashford; a point on which
Mr. Talbot had very judiciously refrained from examining. The
South-Eastern Company had put the town of Maidstone with North
Kent, Dover, Canterbury, and all that part of the country, and then
it was discredited ; but although it was like putting great things in
comparison with small ones, yet he might as well say that the line
to Liverpool from Manchester ought not to pass over Chat Moss ; but
he made the allusion because it was necessary to observe that it was
often a matter of obligation to pass through a thinly peopled district
to satisfy the want of places beyond them. Then, with regard to the
distances—this line would bring Maidstone 20 miles nearer London,
and 15 miles nearer Dover. Maidstone was the most important town
in Kent. The branch to Tunbridge would be 365,0001. Their
then branch would be 176,0001.. so that, as the Noble Chairman
stated, by the expenditure of an extra 200 0001., the whole of the Ashford
district would be accommodated. Their distance to Tunbridge would be
four miles shorter, but on the South-Eastern line the gradients would
be better, and this superiority would make the distance in time ab-
solutely shorter. Mr. Stephenson and Mr. Bidder had shown that
the saving in gradients would overbalance the disadvantage of dis •
tance. Mr. Cubitt had said that twelve carriages would pass over
the South-Eastern line where ten would pass over his ; and this was
important, when he came to consider the question of gradients.
With reference to the Bricklayer's-arms station, it was the pro-
perty of the South-Eastern Company, so that the allegation of their
being in connexion with that station was an absurdity. He would
now contrast the gradients on these lines. The cost of the gradients
on the Mid Kent line from London to Ashford was only 1 in 102.
He would not recur to the gradients presumed, but to those on the
projected lines. On the Maidstone line, the Atmospheric Company
had a gradient of 4 miles in length of lin 80. and another of 8%
miles in length of 1 in 100, making thirteen miles worse than 1 in
100. On the Tunbridge line there was a gradient of 53j miles in
length, of 1 in 80 ; so that nineteen miles, or nearly one-half of the
atmospheric line would be on a worse gradient than the whole of
the South-Eastern line. Thus the worst gradient on the opposing
line occurred in the tunnel, where the apex of the line was placed.
Looking at the case as it stood before their Lordships, he was
happy that he had Mr. Stephensen on the side of the good gradients,
and he (Mr. Austin) could hot help being of his opinion, for he
should always be ready to choose a gradient of 1 in 10 to 1 in 100.
The South-Eastern Company had got a Bill this session for en-
larging the station at Ashford, as the grand depot ; the station in
fact, as Mr. Cubitt had stated, of the South-Eastern Company that
had cost a quarter of a million.

Mr. TALBOT objected to any such subject being gone into on the
authority of Lord Tenterden.

Mr. AUSTIN believed be had a right to allude to it. Then, with
regard to the crossing of roads en the level, Mr. Cubitt bad stated
that these were always bad things. The Noble Chairman had asked
why a clause could not be introduced under the direction of the
Board of Trade, and there was no reason why each a clause should
not be introduced. These crossings were certainly injurious, but
they were easily obviated. With respect to the rate of toll, as it was
merely a prospective matter: it was really a very amusing thing, but
according to Mr. Wilkinson when the tolls were reduced in amount
the traffic must be increased in quantity. With regard to what Mr.
Wilkinson had said about stealing the plans of the Croydon Company,
all he had to say was that if the Chairman and Directors and
Engineer of the South-Eastern Company had stolen the
plans, they were very mal-a-ctroit thieves, for they had
stolen' if they had stolen at all, that which nobody
would pick up in the streets. After referring to the allegations
against the South-Eastern Company, the Learned Counsel stated that
the opposition was neither more nor less than a Croydon opposition,
and had no reference whatever to public advantage. If this South
Eastern branch were made there would be a distinct entrance from
North Kent into London, whereas if the reverse were to hold, the
whole of that traffic would come over the Croydon line, and thus it
would form the drain to the whole county of Kent. After speaking
of the value of competition, and citing Ricardo's authority on the poli-
tical dogma of the value of competition, Mr. Austin alluded to the
benefit of a united management. There was no doubt but that Mid
Kent must be accommodated, and he trusted that the Committee
would not lightly postpone the deei.3lon for another year, for he felt
bound tb remind the Committee that the expense of these contests
were equal to the whole expense of working the line for one year.
To the Earl of Devon the Counsel replied that the distance by the
atmospheric line was 24 miles, and by the South-Eastern route 28)4
miles to Tunbridge.

Mr. AUSTIN continued by stating that they had the consent of the

inhabitants of the district, and as the promoters had given a good
plan—perhaps not the best that could be devised—yet a good plan,
satisfactory to the district, and in every way a workable plan,
he would, therefore, ask of their Lordships sot to postpone this Bill,
but allow the preamble to be proved.
The room was cleared. On the re-admission of parties,
The CHAIRMAN stated that the preamble of the South-Eastern line
had not been proved, and the Bill is, consequently, lost.

Room D.

This Committee met to-day, at eleven o'clock, the Earl of St.
Germans in the chair, when the consideration of the clauses of the

GLASGOW,
Bill was entered upon.
DUMFRIES, AND CARLISLE
Mr. Burke, the agent of the promoters, brought up several clauses
that had been drawn up by the Caledonian Company, and which the
two companies had mutually agreed to.
Mr. Sergeant Witationam then proceeded, on behalf of the Caledo-
nian Company, to proposn the insertion of a clause, which, if adopted,
would still leave the Rill as it now stood up to the point at Gretna.
This clause had a twofold object—that of giving efficient accommo-
dation to the district 'which it required, and at the same time to give
a partial protection to the Caledonian Company, which it could not
he denied would be seriously prejudiced by the construction of the
Nithsdale line. The eause,- it would be observed, gave the Caledo-
nian Company power, under certain conditions, to purchase the por-
tion of the Nithsclale scheme between Annan and the Caledonian main
line. If this were agreed to, the break between the two companies
would take place at Annan, instead of at Dumfries. There could
be no doubt that Annan would be a much more convenient position
for a general terminus, while It would be a means of protecting the
through traffic of the Caledonian Company against competition.
Arrangements of the kind ho proposed were not uncommon; he
believed that similar conditions of purchase had been introduced into
about ao or 90 miles. Ile believed it was done in the case of the
Glasgow and Garnkirk Railway, who, in altering a portion of their
line that affected the Monkland and Itirkintilloch, gave the latter
the power to purchase the altered portion of the former. lie sub-
mitted the clause as the only mode of doing justice to a large com-
pany, whose capital was jeopardised by the passing of the present
Bill.

Sir TOOMAS Mums said he had carefully followed the Learned
Gentleman, and he could not hear a single reason why the proposi-
tion should be entertained. It was substantially raising the question
which had been decided yesterday after a most patient and deliberate
consideration on the part of their Lordships. They had decided that
the Nithsdale line should go up to Gretna, while they at the same
time decided that the Canobie branch more properly belonged to the
Caledonian Company. He would not go on to argue the question,
but, after the investigation, leave it with confidence in the hands of
the Committee. It was the last attempt of the Caledonian Company
to prevent the construction of the line.

Mr. Sergeant WRANOHAM denied it was raising the question of
yesterday, but rather to give effect to that decision. The only
difference proposed was, that the Caledonian line should be worked
by the Caledonian Company, instead of by the Ayrshire Company,
and on the same terms if required, while at the same time the public
interest would be fully provided for. The whole object sought was to
protect the vested interests of the Caledonian Company from
jeopardy, while the shareholders of the Nithsdale line would be
placed in no worse position than they were at present.
The room was then cleared for the deliberation of the Committee.
In about half an hour the parties were called hr.
The emulous intimated that the Committee had come to the fol-
lowing resolution :—" That the Committee is prepared to sanction
the insertion of a clause requiring the Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle
Company to grant a perpetual lease to the Caledonian Company, on
their obtaining statutory powers to acquire the same, of that portion
of the line which lies between Annan and the Caledonian Railway,
subject to the same conditions as those which the Glasgow and Ayr
Company are empowered by this Bill to purchase in other parts of
the line, in the event of their non-amalgamation with the Glasgow,
Dumfries, and Carlisle Company."
After an interval, both parties submitted clauses, in order to
carry out the intention of the Committee in the resolution they had
come to.
An argument took place on the clauses of the respective parties,
Mr. Sergeant WaaNcaLtm contending that his clauses were in full
accordance with the resolution of the Committee, while those sub-
mitted by the promoters of the Bill, if agreed to, would actually con-
travene its intention, which was to protect the through traffic of the
Caledonian and would introduce a great deal of legislation that was
foreign to the object sought to be accomplished.
Sir T. PHILLIPS replied in support of the clauses the promoters of
• the Bill had submitted. He maintained that unless the provisions
of these clauses were admitted, the Glasgow and Ayr Company would
he placed in an injurious position, and would not be able to receive
proper indemnity for the giving up to the Caledonian Company 0-
least expensive and most profitable portion of the line. --te
After some further discussion on the clauses, tuft parties
were
ordered to withdraw. •
On our re-admission, •
The CHAIRMAN intimated that e Committee were of opinion
that Mr. Sergeant Wrangham's clay ses did carry out the intention
of the resolution come to by the Cot amittee.
The preamble of the Bill, as alter ed in agreement with the amend-
meats made by the Committee, arid the new clauses admitted, was
then passed, and the several clauses of the Bill gone through and
agreed to.
The Bill with the amendments was then ordered to be reported to
the Mouse.
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