The Sun.
London, England, 1848-06-24 00:00:00

LAW REFORM

The NOBLE Loup then moved the second reading of
the Administration of Justice Bill.—Agreed to.
The Bill was then read a second time.
CASE OF VISCOUNT ARBUTHNOT.
The LORD CHANCELLOR informed the House
that two bills had been found against Viscount Ar-
buthnot, a Scotch Peer, for forgery, and had been re-
turned to the House; and, in conformity with precedent,
he moved for the appointment of a Committee to whom
the papers should be referred, and also that the Black
Rod be directed to take Viscount Arbuthnot into cus-
tod y.—Agreed to.
The NOBLE AND LEARNED LORD then moved that the
'Committee should consist- of all the Peers who had at-
tended Parliament this session, of whom five should be
a quorum ; and he also moved that the Lord Chief
Justice of the Common Pleas should be ordered to attend
the Committee.—Agreed to.
JOINT STOCK COMPANIES BIM.
Earl GRANVILLE moved the second reading of this
Joint Stock Companies Bill. If their Lordships would
consent to the second reading ho should not propose that
the Bill should be committed before Monday, July 3.
The Bill was read a second time.
EVICTED DESTITUTE POOR (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord REDESDALE brought up the report on this Bill.
The Noble Lord said, in order to prevent the irregularity
which took place last night, he should on Menday move
standing orders to the effect that when a Bill was com-
mitted or re-committed in the absence of the Noble Lord
the Chairman of Committees, that the House should re-
sume. The Noble Lord concluded by moving that the
amendment, as made last night, be adopted.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said, that'on the
third reading he should move that the amendments
adopted last night be 4jected.
Lord MONTEAGLE defended the amendments, as
calculated to a?; )rd greater relief.
The Earl of MskLMESBURY said that the third
reading of the Bill should not take place on Monday if
the Noble Marquis (Clauricarde) wished to have a full
attendance of Peers,
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought, as the
amendments which had been introduced would be likely
to lead to serious consequences, that an opportunity
should he given ter a re-consideration of the amendments
adopted last night, but as the measure had long been
before their Lordships, he did not consider that it would
be necessary to postpone the third reading of the
Bill beyond Monday.
The report was then received. and the Bill ordered to
be read a third time on Monday.
THE POLES AT PWEN.
Lord KINNAIRD, pursuant to notice, rose to put the
following question, namely, "Whether a copy of the con-
vention, signed by the Prussian Royal Commissary, Gen.
Willisen, at Jarostaweie, with the Poles, on the 11th of
April,anrl proclamations by the same general subsequen t to
that period, had been communicated to the Government
by her Majesty's Minister at Berlin; and if so, whethsr
the Government would object to lay such papers on the
table?" His object was to have the best means of con-
eradicting statements imputing acts of great cruelty te
those uiefortunata people, the. Pole?, who had been seri-
ously' injuredin the estimation of their friends by the
ciaeulatien of such reports, first through the medium of
the English, and afterwards by the German, press, The
successful insurrection at Berlin naturally excited sym-
'pathetic feelings in the Duchy of Posen, and a portion Of
the population sent a deputation to Berlin, claiming simi-
lar privileges, but they did not wish to throw off the Prus-
sian yoke. When they arrived they found that the Polish
state prisoners had been released, and they were perfec
satisfied_ The. King granted the claims urged by thedeY-
legation, but the German authorities intrigued in Berlin
to prevent the proposed freedom. The Prussian soldiers
expelled from Berlin went to Posen, and committed
many atrocities on the Poles, General Willisen was
then sent by the King to Posen, and found the Prussian
soldiers about to attack the Poles, martial law having
been declared. The King, however, apprehended an
attack from Russia on Posen, and looked to the Germans
anal Poles combined there as his main defence. A con-
vention. was signed, under which the Poles laid down
their arms; nevertheless as a body of them were passing
through a village they were fired upon by the Germans.
It had been said that the Poles had committed the
greatest atrocities on the Jews; but the fact was that
only five Jews in all had been executed, and they had
been found with arms in their hands attacking the
Germans. The greatest cruelties had been committed
on the Poles; in fact they had called down the strongest
animadversions of the Prussian authorities. All the
details would be found in the papers for which he was
about to move; and it was necessary to have this matter
cleared up, because a great deal of the truth, with
reference to the Poles, had been suppressed by the Ger-
man papers. A lady, a proprietor of large estates in
Posen, ha written to the German papers, contradicting
the statements with reference to the alleged misconduct
of the Poles, in consequence of which she had been sub-
jected by the Germans in Posen to the utmost indig-
nity and persecution. General Willisen and the Arch-
bishop of Posen had also given their testimony in favour
of the conduct of the Poles ; and there was no doubt
about their being grossly misrepresented. The Noble
Lord eoncladed by putting the question of which he had
given notice.

The Marquis of L ANSDOWNE sympathised with
the motion of th• Noble Lord, yet he deprecated inter-
ference in matters of foreign policy with which this
country had nothing to do. He thought he was there-
fore justified, in consequence of the extreme inconve-
nience which might result from its being supposed that
the Parliament of this country had taken cognizance of
such proceedings, in refusing to accede to the motion of
the Noble Lord.

The Earl of HARROWBY was very glad that the
motion had been made, because it gave him an oppor-
tunity of stating his cordial concurrence in the senti-
ments of the Noble Lord who had brought the subject
.before their Lordships.
Lord BEAUMONT said the man was profoundly
ignorant of what was passing in Europe who did not
perceive the possibility of the events now taking place in
Poland leading to a general European war. This coun-
try had already done much harm by refraining to express
its opinion on such events. Had it done so before the
lawless invasion of Denmark, that dangerous aggres-
sion would not now have had to be terminated by
protracted neeotiations. As the matter stood, it might
even disturb our relations with the Baltic. The matter
before the House touched the interests of England as
much as any alteration of the balance of power could
do. Many communications from Posen, from Germans as
well as Poles, had led him to retract the opinion he had
at first formed that the inhabitants of Posen had fallen
into errors and perhaps crimes ; he was now convinced
that, they could not justly be stigmatised as they had
been hy himself On a former occasion; and he rejoiced
in this opportunity of stating that the painful
he had at first entertained was removed. impStillress ion
he
thought the Posen Committee of Safety had fallen into
error in attempting to remove all the Government
employes,
inasmuch as the German population had a
right to have their sentiments consulted as well as the
Poles. The Archbishop of Posen had been blameable in
making this a sectarian movement.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGII, on the point of
order, suggested that long speeches ought not to be made
one mere questien, which was only permitted for the sake
of -avoiding the necessity of a motion. Nothing a
more inconvenient than to touch incidentally and:rae.
gularly on the convulsions now agitating Europe from
oae end to the other, and on the effect they were likely
to have on our relations with those states. The reason
was that the opinion of the House was apt to be misre-
presented; for, if a motion were submitted, Noble Lords
who were acquainted with the subject would then come
fully prepared to discuss it.
Lori' BEAUMONT proceeded to speak in explana7
tion, *hereupon
Earl FITZWILLIAM rose to order, and the discus-
sion terminated.

• STA OF IREL.
• The, Norms EARL then rose to bring forward the
resolutions of which he had given notice, on the state of
Ireland. It was now seven months since Parliament
assembled, and what had been done? Was the condition
of Ireland suet as to satisfy the Hous? At the meeting
of Parliament, Government invited them, the whole of
Ireland called on them, to legislate for the suppression
of the crimes there prevailing. Without the least doubt
or delay Parliament assented to the measures proposed,
and were prepared even to strengthen the hands of Go-
vernment with still more powerful measures. But the
Government exercised a wise discretion, and the result
had proved that they had made no immoderate de-
mand on Parliament. The law thus passed had been
administered with the greatest discretion, and the
most untiring zeal and energy ; and to the Executive'
of Ireland, next to the Government, was the country'
indebted for the success of that measure. It would
ill become- either House of Parliament to separate
without expressing this opinioa so generally enter-
tained. The Government had performed a great and
difficult task with signal success; and the Irish Execu-
tive had had the rare felicity of enlisting in its aid the
almost unanimous feeling of the people. Formerly that
feonelin there had been no difficulty in inducing witnesses
to come forward, and other parties to take the necessary
steps for securing the execution of the law. But, he
would ask, what further had been done? Did the House
suppose the condition of Ire
Thland was such as to require
no further legislation? They had
prevention of crime; passed laws for the but what had they done to benefit
the condition of the people, and strengthen their attach-
ment to the cause of peace and order? In framing such
measares it was necessary to have a due regard to all
classes and conditions of the Irish people. On a subject
like this be could not refrain referring to the course of
legislation in past years. In the last session five
important measures had been promised, a new poor-
law, one for making a loan of a million and a
half to landed Proprietors, one for improving
waste lands, and others for fl cilitating the sale
of - oneumbered estates ; of these, only the two
first:. had been passed into law. The sum of a million
arida' half ivas no great amount for the purpose in view;
but bow had it operated ? Already, of the million
and-a-half, the Commissioners had sanctioned the advance
of oPolafds of 1,400,0001.; but this did little unless the I
money was actually advanced, paid away u and wages,.

from which some good to the people might have resulted.
The real advance, however, instead of a million and a
half, had only been, according:to the last return, 220,000 L,
and tnis was to improve 19 millions of acres of land!
The great object was to improve the agriculture of Ire-
land, and increase the production; and in doing this,
they ought not to lose sight of the fact that it had been
necessary to supply an extensive destruction of the
staple food of six millions of people. But the Legisla-
ture had passed the poor-law. He for one did not com-
plain of that law, In some electoral divisions, it was
true, the poor-rate was 35., 55., or 7s. in the pound; and
in one division in the west of Ireland it amounted to ac-
tually more than the landlords received. He did not suffer
from any such burden; in two of the divisions on his estates
the rate was only 20., and in none was it higher than 2s.
If the poor-rate was no higher throughout Ireland than in
the county of Wicklow, no landlord would have reason
to complain. He had stated these facts to show that he
could not be actuated by any personal feeling in the
matter. But when the rate amounted to 3i., 5a., ara. 7e.
in the pound, the matter was one demanding serious
consideration. He asked their Lordships—and he
knew what must be the answer--whether they desired
the continuance of a state of ti4rigs which must render
property valueless, and at the same time destroy a most
useful class of society in Ire;iand, on whom the burden
of these rates fell? He was confident that unless the
House reconsidered that measure, in its incidence upon
property, and in the t?.ivisions which had been made for
the purpose of rating, the result he had indicated must
ensue, especially in the county of Donegal and others in
the west of Ireland. It would necessarily involve the
ruin of a large class of proprietors; it would ruin a Noble
Friend near him (here the Noble Lord pointed to some
one on the Ministerial bench); and, after such extensive
ruin, he would ask what could stand between the Go-
velem:lent of that country and the wild democracy ?
, (Hear.) By whom would the mob then be wielded ?
(Hear.) He implored the aid of their Lordships to
avert this evil, and to lose no time in doing ono thing
which was most essential to the tranquillity of Ireland,
and to its physical well-being. They had made the
property of Ireland liable to support the poverty of Ire-
land, but let them take care that that property retained
its attitude as property, and let them cause it to support
one thing more. He must ask them to impose one more
burden upon it, to be taken from the shoulders of the
people. For the sake of peace and tranquillity, the se-
curity of the Protestant Church, and the safety of the
empire, he asked their Lordships to establish the Roman
Catholic religion in that country. This was roost eeen-
tial, and he would tell his Right Rev. Friends behind him
that if they would not have Roman Catholic prelates sit-
ting here, this must be done. The Roman Catholic
priests ought to be paid as stipendiary clergymen; ~,,
difference must be made between a
commonbetweent hrshepmasne,theyl must
a tie Pro-
testantmoot clergymen;the same to u
platter.--(Laughter.) He would
feed o u t
now return to the question--what had been done for
Ireland this session? Last session the Encumbered E.,-
tates Bill had been sacrificed to English interests.—(No,
no.) lie maintained that this was the case, but Were the
measure passed, and found to work very smoothly and
itssuccessfully,a
long t i operationm e before would bea u
y extremelyheue
beneficial al c
slow,ha u ande
it would be
would be produced thereby. If it were naeant '''to
allow English interests to purchase. large estates in
Ireland, he anticipated no great benefit from the
Every an
changednean
caeuanegesta.knew
hands; even
vewhat
in
this happenedcoun t
ryw,h
be when
knew ante instance in the north of England where a
large estate had been sold, and the first considera-
tion of the new proprietor was, how much additional
rent he could raise out of the property. He would much
wraetrheersasiede, t, We haveh,eexisting Irish proprietors go on as Well as
cooed they co than see them replaced by others. It it
passed the poor-law, what else
can we do?" he would answer, let the poor-law be made
to fulfil the object for which it was passed—to maintain
the destitute, and gradually to diminish pauperism. Had
it done so hitherto? On this head he was prepared with
a variety of documents. In the union of B.dinrobe,
where the population was 85,000, on the 7th of February
last 25,000 were receiving rations, the following week
they were upwards of 26,000, and the relief cost 7001. a
week, or about 35,0001. a year—being something like 6-.
per head on the whole population. That was not the
whole expense of the poor-rate, as it was only for out-dor
relief. A few weeks after, on the 25th of March, the
guardians reported as destitute no fewer a number claim •
ing out-door relief than 30,413. Now it se as impossible
to allow such a state of things as that to continue—or
for her Majesty's Government to rest satisfied with their
past policy as sufficient to remedy it. The only remedial
measure yet received from the House of Commons, after
a sitting of seven months, was the Evicted Tenants Bill,
which their Lordships considered on the previous even-
ing. He quite agreed with his Noble Friend opposite,
who said last session that much might be done fur Ire -
land by the employment of the people in the construc-
tion of railways. But in saying that, he did not confine
himself to railways. He was for giving employment to
ABERAVON MARKET BILL.
the people in all other national objects and works which
it could come within the province of a Government to This Bill was read a third time and passed.
TH ONIAN
DE RAILWAY (BRANCH A undertake. It was no fair reason to say that they CALEED CLY, AND GLASGOW STATI CROSSON).
should be left to private enterprise in Ireland, because
On the motion that this Bill be read a third time,
they were so in England, seeing that England was
Mr. WARD said he could not allow the third read-
the only country in Europe where such was the
case. It might be said that when those works would ing to pass without taking notice of the most unjustifi -
be completed the people would be in the same position able attacks which had been made upon the Board of
as now, and that it would then become necessary to Admiralty on a former occasion, by the Ho-
construct other works. His reply to that objection was, nourable Member for Montrose. Never had a case,
that every new work would be the prolific source of he said, been more impartially and labouriously
considered by his Noble Friend (Lord Auckland) and
others. It was not the mere construction of a railway
from Dublin to Galway that he looked to so much as the other members of the Board, and_he only regretted
the building of stores and the making of roads, and that the lion. Member had not given notice that it was
his intention to make the observations to which he al-
those other works consequent upon the first, which
would yield employment and excite to industry.
laded, in order that he might have had an opportunity
He would also recommend a large scheme of of replying. The facts of the case were simply these—
three years ago a proposition was made to cross the
emigration as a remedy fur the present deplorable
condition of Ireland. But, whether the Government Clyde with a bridge of seven arches, which was
concurred or not in his suggestions, he must again opposed by the trustees of the river, the bridge
ress u on them the necessi trustees, and indeed by all parties in Glasgow, and it
press e
the condition of that country,of loin
unless somethin
they to
had, therefore, received the decided opposition of the
a
were prepared to see in it disorganization of society. Admiralty. During the present year, however, every
They must not, however, attempt to govern it without one of the circumstances had been changed. The com-
the aid of the gentry. It would not be for the good party now proposed to carry the railway across the river
either of the middle or lower classes to destroy the in a tunnel, resting upon a single pier in the middle of
gentry of Ireland • for if they did so the gentry of Eng- the stream, or in such other manner as the Board
of Admiralty might direct. The only question now
land would soon follow. The Government seemed to
think that the poor-law had provided for the comfort of left in doubt was whether there should be one arch or
the lower classes; but it had done no such thing. The two arches, but he begged to say that the company
people of Ireland had suffered more since the passing of could not proceed with the works without the consent
that Act than before, owing, in his opinion, to its effect of the board. The company had consented to contri-
on the feelings of the people. Previous to its introduc-
bute a fund of 12,0001. for the privilege thus granted to
lion every man was accustomed to assist his neighbour. them, which sum was to be paid over to the Paymaster
Indeed, the peasantry in Ireland entertained sentiments of the Navy, and to be applied by th® trustees for
upon that subject of which the English people had no deepening and improving that part of the river. Those
conception. It was prophesied at the time that its ine-
were the facts of the case, and he did not think a more
vitable consequence would be to destroy those feelings, simple or straightforward explanation could be given.
and that prophecy had been fulfilled; for now, instead of The Bill was then read a third time and passed.,
an anxiety to assist each other, the answer was, where STANDING ORDERS.
charity was demanded, •' go to the relieving officer." It On the motion of Mr. HEATHCOTE; a Select Com-
was deeply implanted in the English mind that every-
mittee was appointed for the revision of the standing
thing English must be good, even for other countries.
orders, consisting of the following Hon. Members:—Sir
But, however gratified the English people may be in William Heathcote, Mr. Ord, Mr. Bernal, Mr. Greene,
forming that opinion as regarded themselves, most Sir Robert Ferguson, Mr. Wilson Patten, Sir John
certainly they had passed a poor-law for Ireland Yarde Buller, Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Elliott, Captain Jones,
which was utterly at variance with both the feelings Mr. Wrightson, Mr. Home Drummond, Mr. Loch, Mr.
and condition of that country, and bad proved wholly Sotheron, and Mr. Evelyn Denison.
ineffectual for attaining the objects with which it was THIRD READINGS.
enacted ; the British Parliament having been obliged to The following Bills were read a third time and
Edvote large sums of money from the public purse to keep E
the Irish people from starvation. It was because he t.aw Edinburgh and Bathgate Railway (Extension and Devi-
no hope for Ireland in the measures now before Perim-ment,Truro Turnpike-roads.
wh ment, that he had ventured to bring this subject forward, itehaven and Furness Junction Railway (Extension
and to ask the Noble Marquis whether Government had or Deviation Line from Silecroft to Foxfield, &c).
any measures for the permanent improvement of Ireland HAMLYN'S ESTATE BILL.
in contemplation? The Noble Lord concluded by mov-
The report upon this Bill was considered and agreed to.
ing the following resolutions :—" That is incumbent PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
upon this House to express the approbation with which Mr. THORNELY presented a petition from Bilston,
it has viewed the wisdom, energy, and prudence, with prae ing for an extension of the suffrage, vote by ballot,
which the Executive Government of Ireland has been
triennial Parliaments, and equal electoral districts.
conducted during the recent period of difficulty. That Mr. LUSHINGTON presented a similar petition.
it is equally the duty of this House to express the deep Dr. BO WRING presented fifty petitions from Man-
sorrow with which it continues to view the prolonged ches.ter, forty from Bolton, and a number of petitions
distresses of many classes of the Irish people, and the front the metropolis, from Glasgow, Stockport, and other
regret which it feels that the measures passed in the places, to the same effect.
concluding session of the late Parliament for the im- Mr. KEOGH presented a petition also in favour of
provement of Ireland have not hitherto been productive Parliamentary reform.
of the benefits which were anticipated from their enact. meta. To express the decided opinion of this House, Captain PECHELL presented several petitions from
Brighton containing a similar prayer, and also ten peti-
tmoi;
tf ofurther legislative measures are required for remedy Lions from the same place, praying the House to consider
the evils under which Ireland labours, for the develop- the the propriety of a measure embodying the principles
The
mietarci.nutuatruereaatul
and commerce."
ea.n,,cl for the improvement contained in the document called the People's Charter.
of its agriculture Mr. H. BERKELEY presented a petition from Glen-
();
t/ANSDOWNE felt it his duty to tester complaining of intimidation and of general treating
he ruoti
ugh in doing so he was fully alive at the last election, and praying the House to give the
Glen-
oppose t
to the difficultY °f hislosition, in having to object (on electors the protectionoftheballot; also a petition from
the ground of inconee
Friend
ttiprieicedent) to a testimony in Bristol in favour of Parliamentary
presentedreform.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH similar petitions
favour of his Noble
land, which the conduct of ttheatLV-Lieutenant of Ire- from London and Bristol.
very trying and difficult times, entitled Friend, during Colonel THOMPSON presented fifty • • from
His petitions
His Noble Friend (Earl Fitzwim him (Ilear.) Manchesterand its
neighbourhood in favour of Parlia-
am)com lamed p that the
1 late measures passed for the improve mentary reform.
had not been productive of the benefimtse:t of Ireland Sir G. STRICKLAND presented petitions to the
first of those measures to which he
would epected. The same effect from Preston, and in favour •
of a redaction
certain extent, allude was
that by which, to a
been established. It would not be denied that the greatest Sir B. HALL presented two similar petitions from
hope for Ireland depended on the individual industr Marylebone, also one from the guardians of the poor,
and the enterprise of her people ; and enterprise and illy_ praying the House to facilitate the emigration of able-
dustry were always more successful when proceeding bodied paupers.
from spontaneous feelings of the people, than when fos- Mr. GRENFELL presented thirty petitions from
tered and maintained by artificial means, and by the in- Preston in favour of Parliamentary reform.
terference of the Legislature. It would be obvious then Mr. G. BERKELEY presented petitions from Bristol
that the best course for the Government or for Perlis- and other places to the same effect.
dr•aWA
ment to take was to place the poor and industrious pen- thel bll RD presented a petition from -Sheffield for
pie of Ireland in that position of security and safety in also a
pet triennial Parliaments, and vote by ballot ;
which the fruits of their industry might be assured to the eldest tad from an individual, praying that four of
them, and to secure the proprietor in the possession of Bills afterjthra should have the power of investigating
his property. In this respect he was bound to contend task, which nimi'lad passed through Parliament, as that
that the measure of which he had spoken as administerd much for one pertelly devolved on the CroWn, was too
by his Noble Friend the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had the Parliament ; as
12,0 and that they should have seats in
been most decidedly successful. He could refer to offi- monopoly of the Bank 07 petition, complaining of the
cal statements showing the improved condition of Ire- Mr. HUME presented
land in th® great diminution of crime :since that men- parts of the country in faun
petitions from different
favour of the reforms which he
sure had come into operation; and not merely of Ire- had proposed to the House.
land generally but of those districts in particular in Mr STUART presented • -
a petition from Newark,
which crime had previously prevailed to the •*c intoxicating
greatest ex against the sale o. liquors on Sundav
tent, as in the counties of Clare, Limerick, Galwa '
Y, Mr. MILES presented a petition from Bristols 8. •
against
and Tipperary, but where now; comparative security • • laws.
reigned. This improvement was evidenced not only in the navigation-
a petition
FORBES presented from a place in
the decrease of prosecutions, but in the altered • Mr.
habits
aof the people, and the better cultivation of the Scotland, against the Lunatic Asylums Bill.
land.—(Hear, hear.) The number of oa r
g for e Mr. BERNAL presented a petition from Rochester in
t
favour of household suffrage, vote by ballot, and the di-
the whole of Ireland had diminished from 2 1•67 i
December last year to 1,182 in the last month of the vision vision of the kingdom into electoral districts.
Mr. NEWDEGATE presented a petition from 200
present year—a diminution of about one-half- and in persons connected with the Lyceum Theatre, praying that
the higher class of outrages he was harpy to say o say the the number of theatres in which foreigners should be
falling cc o•-• was in a still greater p • proportion.—(Hear,
hear) allowed to perform should be limited to two.
So far, then, as giving security to industry Mr. HERRIES presented a petition from the General
property, and the results of such securite, the
measures of the Government had not been ;hon Committee of Shipowners against the repeal of the navi-
gation-laws.
unproductive of good. Again, when his Noble Frieli
said that nothin Mr COBDEN presented a petition from Hereford,
did g had been done to improve the con- 'on of Ireland, h forgot signed by 2,945 persons, in favour of reform.
already e the advantage which had
resulted from the exertions ofthose Sir GEORGE GREY presented a petition against the
persons who had been sale of intoxicating liquors on Sundays.
employed in going round the country i lecturing on the scienceSUGAß DUTIES.
of agriculture. The -teachin I
g ... Mr. BRIGHT gave notice that in the !went of the it

of those persor AU had been most successful, and in many
instances, eve it in the short space of time that had
elapsed since the commencement of their labours, a
marked impro vOnaent in the cultivation of the land had
taken place. kiuch were the improvements to which he
looked forwar tl fl'sr permanent benefit to the country—
the more so, a a they rested on individual exertion, and
were not for( Jed by Parliamentary interference. His
Noble Friend
had spoken of the small sum issued under
the Land Im prOvement Act. Why, the amount of ad-
vances which
t 'had been sanctioned under that Act (deduct-
ing the application which had been withdrawn)was no less
than 1,388
~000/. There was every inclination to make
the adv. mess as fast as possible, and from what had
been al. eady done under that Act the best results in the
emPlt iyment of the people and the improvement of the
lan"4 had followed. He looked forward to great benefits
rc..sulting to Ireland from the Bill for facilitating the
tale of encumbered estates, which he had every hope
' would pass the other House before the close of the ses-
sion, as a means of introducing British capital in the
improvement of estates which were now, for want of
capital, uncultivated. With regard to the poor-law—
though he had never looked upon it as a panacea for all
the evils of Ireland, nor had it ever been put forward as
such by those who proposed it—he must say, after the
experience they had had of its working, notwithstanding
the abuses and inequality which had attended its opera-
tion, that he knew of no other means by which the great
object could have been accomplished, of saving to a great
extent (though unhappily not entirely) a large portion of
the population from positive destruction.--(Hear, hear.)
He admitted the great benefit that had resulted from the
efforts of the British Association and the Relief Commit-
tees, but these had only followed in the wake of the poor-
law; and but for the system which that law had estab-
lished, the exertions of those institutions would have
been to a great extent unsuccessful. The fishing stations
which had been established andlwere in course of forma-
tion also promised to be of great service in giving pro-
fitable and permanent employment to the people. Look-
ing then at all tbat had been done, he contended that
there was every disposition, not only on the part of the
Government but of both Houses of Parliament, to con-
sider the wants of Ireland, and do all that was possible
for the relief of that country. With regard to further
advances from the consolidated fund for relief works, to
advances for emigration, or in aid of railways, it was
the tendency of every people, and of the Irish perhaps
more especially, to neglect to do that for themselves
which they thought Government would do for them.
He was therefore disposed, as a general rule, rather to
leave such matters to individual exertion than to make
them depend on Government interference. As to the
Irish Church, he admitted fully the Importance of that
subject, and his opinion upon it remained unchanged;
but he was not prepare d, on the part of the Government,
to say that any measure was in contemplation. The
Noble Marquis, concluded by moving the previous ques-
tion.

The Earl of GLENGALL was surprised that during
nearly four hours' discussion on the state of Ireland, not
one syllable had been said with regard to the main point
—which was the system of agitation now going on in
that country. It was absurd to suppose that the country
could improve or prosper while a system of agitation was
allowed to exist which was far beyond any agitation
which had taken place during O'Connell's time. Agi-
tation had gone on so long in Ireland that the people
began to consider it a legal proceeding, and expected
some great event to arise out of it. There was no class
of the community which was not deeply affected by the
system, with which neither landlord nor farmer dared to
interfere, under pain of falling under the force of
that sanguinary code which had met with such general
adoption. It was necessary that the must decided
steps should be taken to put an end to the agita-
tion, for which purpose he recommended the mea-
sures pursued by Lord Grey, who had contrived to
put it down -for two years.. The system of intimi-
dation operated most prejudicially upo❑ the trader, who,
in- many•-caies, if he did sot supply funds ti) support
agitation, had his shop tabooed, arid the same causes
rendered-it a matter of extreme difficulty to obtain evi-
dence, or to induce a proper system of registration. The
present agitation also had its effect upon capital, many
persons in Ireland having sums varying from 2,0001. to
5,0001, and being unable to employ them. Ile consi.
dered that an extendon of the railway system would be
a measure calculated to benefit the country, and urged
the Government to take it into their consideration. Ile
hoped while we were at peace with all the world that
something would be done to stop the agitation, in order
that Ireland, instead of being a dead weight, might be a
tower of strength for this country.
The LORI) CHANCELLOR then read the resolu-
tions, and put the previous question, which was agreed
to without a division.

Their Lordships adjourned at a Quarter past Ten.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 23.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

amendment of the Hon. Member for Droitwich being re-
jected by the House, he should take the first opportunity
of moving that it was not expedient at peeseut to make
any alteration in the Sugar Duties Act of 1846.
POLICE MAGISTRATES.

en many points, he had acted against him in that House
quite as frequently as with him, but thin he would say of
the Hon. Gentleman, that no man ever sat in that House
who had brought to the public service a purer or more
entire disinterestedness—(Cheers from both sides of the
House)—and this he would say further, that had the
Hon. Member's object, on the contrary, been a sordid and
personal one, and had he devoted to that sinister purpose
one tithe of the indefatigahle industry, the fearless
energy, the powerful ability, that he had devoted to the
service of the people, he could long since have secured
that object, as many men, of infinitely less claim, had
secured it.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member, how-
ever, had acted upon other and far difiercut principles,
and he had his great reward in the respect and esteem of
all parties. alike within and without that House.
Mr. HUDSON concurred iu the expression of respect
paid to the Hon. Member for Montrose, but thought it
would be better if Members of the Legislature were to
avoid any share in Government patronage.
Mr. C. ANSTEY said that the reason why the House
had rescinded its resolution respecting Horsham was the
conduct pursued by the Government with respect to
Cheltenham.

In answer to a question from Mr. FORSTER,
Sir GEORGE GREY stated that the police magis-
trates in sending some of the Chartist rioters to trial did
so upon their own responsibility and not through any
instruction that was forwarded from the Home-office.
In his opinion they displayed a sound discretion in
sending them to trial.
MISAPPROPRIATION OF PUBLIC MONEY IN
IRELAND.

On the motion that the House, at its rising, do ad
journ till Monday,
Sir B. HALL rose, pursuant to notice, to call the
attention of the House to an instance of a misappro-
priation of public money under the Land Improvement
Ireland Bill. Those who were Members in the last Par-
liament wouhi remember that in addition to the large
sums of money advanced for relieving Ireland an Act
was pessed authorising a loan of 1,500,0001. to the
landed proprietors in Ireland. Under this Act 5001. was
advanced last autumn to Mr. O'Neil, a landed proprietor
in the county of Galway, upon the understanding that it
was to be expended in the improvement of his property,
so as to afford employment in the ensuing winter to
the poor of the neighbourhood, but instead of doing that
he applied the money to liquidating a bill which had
become overdue at his bankers. Upon the Commis-
sioners threatening to take proceedings against him,
Mr. O'Neil, with a degree of extraordinary modest
assurance. asked for a second loan in order that
he might give his starving tenantry employment.
That was the case so far as it regarded Mr. O'Neil.
He, wished to know, therefore, whether any legal pro-
ceedings had been instituted against Mr. O'Neil to
recover the money which had been advanced to him to
carry on the works in pursuance of the Act? lie wished
also to call the attention of the House to the case of
Lord De Freyne, to whom 70,0001. had been advanced
by the Government for the purpose of carrying on
certain public works on his estates in the
county of Roscommon. There was a clause in the
Act called the Duke of Wellington's clause, which pro-
vided that all money advanced under it should be paid
by the borrower in wages, and in the current coin of the
realm, but Lord De Freyne, instead of acting up to the
spirit or intention of the Act, had only paid ten per
cent. to the labourers he employed, which he did in
supplies of meal, and the remaining ninety per cent.
he paid in cheques upon his agent, who, however, did not
cash them, but placed the amount to the liquidation of
the arrears they owed for rent. When the fact was
communicated to the Board of Works, they came to
a resolution nut to advance any more money,
upon which an intimation was sent by the brother of the
Noble Lord (Mr. Fitzstephen French, the Member
for Roscommon), that it the Government interfered
between the employer and the employed, his brother
would dismiss the whole of the labourers, and abandon
the unexpe.nded part of the loan. Lord De Freyne
had carried out that intention, and the la-
bourers were now in a most wretched state in
consequence of not being paid the wages which they
expected they would have received under the Act.
He thought he had stated enough to show that the
clauses of the Bill had not been carried out, and that in-
stead of the money advanced out of the Imperial Trea-
sury having been paid in the coin of the realm, as pro-
vided by the Act, that it had been paid in this way-10
per cent. in meal, end 90 per cent. in cheques on the
agent of the Noble Lord, who placed the amount to the
credit of the tenants who were considerably in arrear with
their rents. Thus Lord De Freyne was enabled to get
his land improved and his arrears of rent paid up. He
wished to know if, after what had taken place, the Go.
vernment intended to continue the advances to that
Noble Lord.

Mr. MUNTZ would suggest to the Hon. Baronet op-
posite that had the Reform Bill been passed in the shape
originally proposed by Earl Grey, there might very pro-
bably have been no cry since for further Parliamentary
reform.—(Rear, hear.) He should support the issue of
the writ, since Government seemed disposed to take no
steps for prosecuting the inquiry recommended by the
Committee.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government had as-
sisted the Hon. Member for the Flint boroughs with
the legal co-operation of the Solicitor-General an I of
the Judge-Advocate, and he himself had done all he
could in the way of giving the Hon. Member opportuni-
ties for proceeding with his Bill. There had been so
much opposition to it, however, on the other side of the
House, at every stage, that much delay had been occa-
sioned, and there seemed the probability of much further
delay before an inquiry into the alleged bribery in the
borough orDerby could take place. In fact, if the House
did not issue the writ until;after inquiry, there was every
probability, considering the state of public business and
the period of the session, that the writ would not issue
at all until next session. Under these circumstances,
he thought it would be unfair to withhold the writ any
longer, bearing in mind, as he did, that the issue of
the writ now would in no way preclude that inquiry
into the alleged bribery which the Committee had re-
commended.

Mr. THORNELY called upon the House to sustain
the decisions of its Committees. The conduct of the
Election Committees in this, the first Parliament after
the statute creating them as now constituted, had by its
impartial and straightforward honesty given general
satisfaction to the country ; but if Committees found
that their decisions were not sustained by the House,
they would be discouraged from an adherence to that
course which they had hitherto pursued. It appeared to
him that the issuing of writs in this way to boroughs
formerly convicted of much bribery and grievously sus-
pected of still more, would be holding out a premium to
corruption.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir H. PEEL adhered .to the opinion he had formerly
expressed, that the Government ought to have lost no
time in taking some step or other for prosecuting those
inquiries which the S -lest Committees had specially re-
ported to be essential to the purposes of justice.—(Hear,
hear.) Had the Government itself brought forward a
measure for this object, one night's discussion,
or less, would have effected the purpose, and have
saved the House many hours, many evenings he
might say, that had since been lost in desultory debates
on the subject.—(llear, hear.) It really appeared to
him very manifest that, under the peculiar circum-
stances of the case, with the demand for inquiry from
so many quarters, the demand for further changes in
the franchise, the demand for an extension of the Act
of 1832—it really appeared to him that no time should
have been lost in prosecuting an inquiry into the cases
where corruption was charged.—(bear, hear.) Here,
in this borough of Derby, in the only ten cases of
alleged bribery proceeded with, out of 166 indictments,
all had been clearly brought borne to the parties, and
the Committee reported that they had strong grounds
fur the belief that had the inquiry gone on the same
result would have taken place in the other cases. That
inquiry did not go on, simply because the parties, seeing
this result, thought it advisable to withdraw. The
question was, whether the House, too, should withdraw
from the inquiry—(Hear, hear)—or whether, until full
inquiry had been made, the course of justice did not
require that the writ should be suspended. It was his
decided opinion that it should, and he should, therefore,
oppose the issue of the writ.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir H. INGLIS contended that it would be unjust to
the 1,660 electors of Derby, whose conduct had not been
impugned, to disfranchise them until next session, or,
perhaps, till next Parliament, because ten other electors
had been proved guilty of corruption, and 156 others
not proved, but suspected of it.
Mr. AGLIONBY said he should abstain from voting
one way or the other. After the course the House had
taken with reference to two other boroughs, he could not
vote against the issuing of the writ; and, with his
opinion of the conduct of the Derby constituency, he
could not vote for it. He considered that the House had
failed in its duty in not prosecuting an inquiry, since
Government had omitted to do so.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who
was very indistinctly heard, was understood to say,
with respect to the case of Mr. O'Neil, that the
Honourable Baronet had fallen into a mistake. It ap-
peared that the works in question were suspended owing
to the state of the weather, but that they would be
immediately proceeded with. The Government did
not interfere with the works undertaken by landlords
on their own property, except to ascertain that the
money voted was expended for the avowed purpose for
which it was asked; but, as the lion. Gentleman had
not given him notice of his question, and as it required
reference to Ireland, he was unable to give as satisfac-
tory a reply as ho otherwise should. Second advances
were not made unless the parties to whom they
were made could show that they had property ex-
pended the first. The Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Roscommon (Mr. F. French), was better acquainted
with the matter than he could pretend to be, and,
perhaps he would explain that matter to the House.
Mr. F. FRENCH wished to state, on behalf of the
Noble Lord with whom he was so intimately connected,
that the departures from the,Acts were committed en-
tirely without his knowledge or sanction, and that as soon
as he found what had taken place he wrote over to his
agent to strictly comply with the provisions of the Acts.
Every order of the Commisaioners had been obeyed, and
every payment that had been made since the issuing of
the circular had been made in cash.
DUTY ON RUM.

In answer to a qnestion from Sir LUCIUS O'BRIEN,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER excused
himself for not answering yesterday the Hon. Gentle-
man's question in reference to the duty on rum, by stat-
ing that he was anxious to consult his colleagues upon
the subject before, giving a final answer. It was the
opinion of the Chairman of the Excise that a differential

Mr. S. HERBERT asked why had not the Hon. and
Learned Member himself vindicated the character of the
House by undertaking the task he reproached them for
leaving undone.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Unlike
the Hon. Member. he should vote, and his vote would
be against the issuing of the writ.
Mr. BRIGHT said that the blame of all the inconsis-
tency of the House in these matters rested upon the Go-
vernment, whose vacillations had been such as to have
utterly confused every one, and more especially that
party of Hon. Gentlemen who habitually, without any
very nice inquiry, voted as Government voted. These
gentlemen had become wholly at a loss out of which
door the Government wanted them to walk upon these
divisions. As a teller on the previous night, he had
observed four of them, whose votes turned the division,
who had evidently lost their way on the occasion. It
appeared to him that the House was bent upon wholly
forfeiting with the people whatever character still re-
mained to it.

duty of 4d. upon rum would afford ample protection to
the Irish distiller, and Government had therefore deter-
mined to persevere in their original proposition of re-
ducing the duty from 6cl. to 4d.
AFFAIRS OF SPAIN.

Mr. URQUHART wished to ask the Noble Lord the
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a question in re-
ference to the affairs of Spain. It would be remem-
bered that at the time he moved for a return of
the amount of arms and ammunition supplied
by this country to Spain, the Noble Lord stated
that this country had claims upon Spain, in reference to
those supplies which were unsatisfied. Now, the return
which he now held in his hand represented that all the
claims were satisfied, and the question he wished to ask
the Noble Lord was, whether the return was correct in
that respect or not?
Lord PALMERSTON said he would answer the
question on Monday.
Mr. URQUHART asked if the Noble Lord could state
how it was that the return was not signed ?
Lord PALMERSTON said he would answer that
question also on Monday.
Mr. OSBORNE gave notice that on Monday he would
put a question to the Noble Lord respecting the Spanish
correspondence, and the position of this country in re-
ference to the Quadruple Treaty.
The motion for the adjournment of the House was
then agreed to.
SUSPENDED WRITS—BOROUGH OF DERBY.
Sir J. PAKINGTON moved that Mr. Speaker do
issue his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown, to make out
a new writ for electing two burgesses to serve in this
present Parliament for the borough of Derby, in the
room of the Right Honourable Edward Strutt
and the Honourable Edward Frederick Leveson
Gow r, whose election 'has been determined to be void.
The Hon. Member stated that it was most unfair to sus-
pend the writ for Derby, which contained between
30,000 and 40,000 inhabitants, when writs had been
issued for Cheltenham and Horsham, where similar
practices to those complained of at Derby had been
carried on.
Mr. HUME said if it was the intention of Hon. Mem-
bers to bring the proceedings of the House into
ridicule and contempt, such a course as that taken by
the Honourable Mover was calculated to do so.--
(Hear, hear.) In cases of bribery in boroughs the
House had lately taken a most inconsistent course, having
one day refused to issue a writ, and another day con-
sented to issue one. He wished the House to feel that it
was time to put an end to this corruption; and notwith-
standing the act of the House last night he hoped they
would not, upon this occasion, sanction the issuing of
the writ to another corrupt borough. Why he was told
of one town where there were not fifty of the consti-
tuency free from corruption!—(Cries of " Name.")
St. Alban's was the town he meant.—(Laughter.) If
they issued this writ they would give a sanction to acts
of corruption.
Sir J. TYRRELL, as an old Member, wished to ad-
dress a word or two to the Hon. Member for Montrose.
Before the passing of the Reform Bill he remembered
that the Honourable Member for Montrose every night
drew a long bill upon futurity in the shape of prognosti-
cations as to what purity they should have throughout
the country if the Reform Bill passed into a law.
The Honourable Member occupied much of the public
attention, aud much more of the time of that House,
with that sort of statement. He bad continued ever
since to give moral lectures to the House upon all sorts of
questions, and upon none so much as upon questions of
public expenditure. There was the Hon. Member for
Bolton had got a place for his son, almost a sinecure
place, of 5001. a year upon one of those useless commis-
sions which the Hon. Member made such a fuss about
on all other occasions. And there were other Hon.
Gentlemen of the Hon. Member's clique who had in like
manner got places for relatives, as the return he had
moved for would show.
Mr. ELLICE begged to protest most emphatically
against these personalities.—(Hear, hear.) As to the
commission upon which the valuable services of the
son of the Hon. Member for Bolton had been secured, it
was one instituted to conduct a scientific inquiry of a
most important character, and which could not be ade-
quately conducted by a Committee of the House. There
was no department of the public service which more than
the Mint required the scientific investigation now about
to be applieit to it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. BENNET, as a member of the Derby Com-
mittee, begged to remind the House that the Committee
had brought bribery home in the clearest manner to
the ten cases, which, out of the 166 cases of bribery al-
leged, had alone been gone into, the parties at that stage
of the inquiry declining to prosecute further. There was,
however, such strong suspicion attaching to the re-
maining
repert recommending
cases,mmee tha
t fetrhte Committeeherieqeiry,
House was aware. old made
which that
Mr. LABOUCHERE said the Hon. Baronet the
Member for Essex, had charged the Government with
creating a useless commission, and with having been
guilty of what was called a job, in appointing the son of
the Hon. Member for Bolton its secretary. Now,
with reference to the commission, as his Right Hon.
Friend had just observed, there was especial need for
close and scientific inquiry into the whole system and
management of the Mint, and this inquiry could only be
conducted by scientific and highly intelligent persons,
applying their whole attention to the subject in a
way winch euu:clarcely Le expensed lei/La at, (dailiay
Committee up stairs. As to the Hon. Member fur
Montrose, he had differed from that Hon. Gentleman

Lord 'MAHON supported the issuing of the writ.
Mr. V. SMITH denied that the present law of con-
troverted elections was satisfactory to the people, who
merely regarded the honest decisions pronounced by the
Committees this session in the light of a series of fortu-
nate accidents, not as the result of a sound system. It
was essential to render election tribunals cheaper of ac-
cess, speedier in their proceedings, and to inspire greater
confidence in their doesiona.

Mr. COBDEN (who was met like nearly all the pre-
vious speakers with loud cries of " Divide, divide") said
it was really very difficult to get in a word. If you rose
to speak at a quarter to seven you were put down by
Members who wanted to dine ; if you rose to speak at
ten you were put down by Members who had dined.—
(Laughter.) He considered that while the Noble Pre-
mier ought, in accordance with the principle,: he had so
emphatically enunciated, to have prevented, by his active
efforts, the issuing of the write to Horsham—since ccx-
tain it was that, aided by the Right Hon. Member fur
Tamwortb, he could do as he pleased in that House—yet
that the Noble Lord was not wholly to blame in the mat-
ter, for, manifestly, progress had been delayed by the
knot of gentlemen who sat on the lower ranges of
benches opposite. Whatever the House might do in the
matter, the case would be regarded out of doors on a
very distinct and comprehensive basis. Ad these things,
viewed by the people as the outward and visible sign of in-
ward corruption, were weighed accordingly. He held in his
hand a petition signed by a most respectable person, who
prayed that the borough of' St. Alban's might be placed
in schedule Aof the Hon. Member for Flints Bill. Mr.
Sturt, tae petitioner, stated that at the List election for
St. Alban's the corruption and bribery were open and
unblushing; that bad as had been the doings at former
elections there, those at the late election were
still worse; that the two opposing candidates re-
turned were men of directly contrary principles,
the one being a high Tory and the other a
strong Radical, that their election had been conducted
by the same agent, and their bribery and corruption had
bee❑ paid out of the same purse,—(Hear, hear.) Mr.
Sturt distinctly stated, that of the 400 and odd persons
who voted, there were not 50 who had not taken a
bribe. The petitioner affixed his name and address to
his petition, and prayed for leave and opportunity to
prove his case. And this was not the only case that
needed inquiry; by no means. He (Mr. Cobden) be-
lieved that the majority of the borough members re-
turned to that House had been returned either by
bribery and corruption or by patronage. No one could
doubt that the House was indifferent to corruption. The
seats vacated by the recent decisions of the Election
Committees ought to have been transferred to large con-
stituencies, such as Kensington, Staleybridge, and
Barnsley.
Mr. REPTON, as one of the Members for St. Alban's,
denied, in the most solemn manner, the imputation of the
Hon Member for the West Riding. He had no know-
ledge of his Hon. Colleague previous to the moment
when he met him on the hustings, and he neither, di
rectly nor indirectly, had anything to do with the
alleged proceedings at the election for St. Alban's.
Mr. NE WDEG ATE said he should divide in favour
of the issue of the writ.

Mr. HORSMAN protested against the inconsistency
displayed by the House, which would throw discredit
upon its proceedings in cases of corruption at elections.
He should vote against the issue of the writ.
Lord GALWAY said that the Hon. Member for the
West Riding had unjustly attacked small boroughs, of
one of which he was a representative. The Hon. Mem-
ber himself only owed his election for the West Riding
to the creation of faggot votes.
Colonel SIBTHORP said that he had so little confi-
dence in the Hon. Member opposite, as to be determined,
if he told him to go in one direction, to go in the oppo-
site one.—(A laugh).
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For issuing of the writ
Against it
Majority against issuing of the writ---15
The writ is consequently still suspended.
SUGAR DUTIES—ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Sir J. PAKINGTON rose to otter an explanation, in
consequence of a misrepresentation by the Honourable
Member for Westbury, of a statement made by
him on a formerevening relative to the cot of the pro-
duction of sugar in the slave c,)lonics of Cuba, Brazils,
and Porto Rico. The lion. Member had accused him
of making a very grave error, and as the question of
comparative cost of production was at the
very root of the Nest India claims, ho begged leave to
make a few observations in defence of his former state-
ment, which he was prepared to assert was correct in
all its parts, whilst that made by the Hon. Member for
%Vesthury was erroneous to the extent of the difference
between them ; and he must express his belief am: the
Honourable Member had not given careful attention to
the evidence printed in the West Indian Committee re-
port, notwithstanding he had so entirely relied on it.

The SPEAKER called the Hon. Baronet to order.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—The Hon. Member was aware
that the figures which he had given as the net cost pro-
duction of sugar in the three slave colonies named was
the result after the value of the ruin and molasses, and
the interest of money with some other inevitable charges,
had been deducted. The Hon. Member had omitted to
take tho,e items into his estimate. There was also a
deduction made by him (Sir J. Pakington) of Is. sd. lot
the superior value of clayed sugars above Muscovadoes,
the sugars from Cuba and Brazils being all clayed. The
same authorities had furnished both himself and the
Hon. Member for Westbury, with the data which they
had respectively offered to the House, the only differences
being in the deductions which he had made. Tne Hon.
Baronet then referred to the West India Committee
Blue-book, and cited the cost of sugar at Porto Rico,
as stated by the Consul there, in exemplification of his
mode of estimating the relative cost of production. The
Consul stated the gross cost to be 16s. sd. per cwt.;
from this he had deducted 4s. 6d. for interest of money.
&e., Is. for molasses, which left 10s. I id., and from this
he deducted Is. 51. as the difference between the value
of clayed and Muscovadoes. Thu mean cost of all the
slave colonies sugars was, therefore, according to his
mode of estimating the net value, 63. 10id., as he had
before stated. It was he, therefore, who had made the
correct statement, and that offered by the Hon. Member
was quite erroneous.
Mr. WILSON said that he was informed, and he be-
lieved correctly, that in the preparation of clayed sugars
neither rum nor molasses were produced. At the same
time lie must admit that if the lion. Baronet bad accom•
puttied his figures with the explanation which he had
now given he should not have said what he did.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that he did make the ex-
planation at the time, but his remarks were not reported.
Mr. WILSON was quite satisfied on that point. With
respect to the difference in value between clayed and
Muscovado sugars, that was taken into account in the
differential estimate of cost. He repeated, had he seen
the statement of the Hon. Boronet in print, he should
not have reviewed his figures.
Mr. P. MILES said that the Honourable Member
ought to have exercised more caution before he ventured
to tax the Honourable Baronet with error. He was
disposed to go further than the Right Hon. Gentleman
who stated last night (Mr. W. Gladstone), that the West
Indians ought to have some relief given to them, be-
cause they had had none since the emancipation was
granted. He (Mr. P. Miles) thought that when the
slave labour was taken away and the produce thereby
reduced one-half, some means ought to have been
afforded the planters of controlling the freed negroes
and of obtaining other labourers. Some protection was
undeniably due to the West Indies, in order to enable
them to compete with the foreign slave colonies. If that
was net done they must abandon the West Indian
Islands. In fact, orders were going out every day from
merchants and West India proprietors here to cease cul-
tivating their estates. Ile could read some of these
letters to the House; and, indeed, he knew that upwards
of one hundred estates had been abandoned, owing to the
inadequate price of sugar as compared with the cost of
producing it. The immediate consequence would be,
that the West Indies would cease to produce sugars, and
the machinery now there would be transferred to Cuba,
from which place the supply would thenceforth come.
The Hon. Member for Westbury had read a statement
respecting the wages of free labourers in the %Vest In-
dies. In Guiana they had been reduced only 5 per
cent.; in Trinidad, he admitted, the reduction was one-
halt ; and in other islands (save Jamaica) the reduction
was 25 per cent. But what was the amount of wages
in the island of Trinidad? Why, for a day of four or
five hours only, the free labourers got Is. 3,l.—(Hear,
hear.) What made the matter worse was that at this
moment the West Indian worked with a certainty of
further reduction in the price of this commodity. It
had been said that the present distress was not so much
attributable to the Bill of 1846 as to the commercial
distress prevailing generally over the world. He dif-
fered from that opinion, seeing that the distress had
arisen in the face of an increased consumption to the
amount of thirty thousand tons annually, and also
because it was immediately co-existent with the in-
troduction of slave-grown sugar into this country.
(Hear, hear.) He had said that the result
of the present state of things would be the general aban-
donment of estates. He would now explain his meaning.
He should have said that there would be a cessation of
cultivation.---(Hear, hear.) One or two years must elapse
before final abandonment, to allow the planter to con-
vert his stock of canes on hand into rum and sugar. Ul-
timately they would be abandoned, and England would
be placed in the humiliating position of depending for
her supply of sugar on the slave-growing contries of
Cuba and Brazil. In taking sugar from the latter coun-
try, the slave dealer was directly encouraged more than
any other party. The planter bought slaves from him on
credit, paying him enormous interest for the accommo-
dation, so that the plantations might be said literally to
be worked for the benefit of the traffickers in slaves.—
(Hear, hear.) Hon. Members asked permission to buy
in the cheapest market; why not allow our planters to
buy labour on the same priuciple?—(Hear.) At present
he was confined to the dearest, paying the free labourer
high wages for four or five hours' work, while the
planter of Cuba extracted from fourteen to sixteen
hours' labour daily from his slaves. The question was
entirely one of the supply of labour. Until our planters
got a plentiful supply, and at a reasonable rate, it was
useless to think of their contending with the foreigner.
He had heard it urged that the fertility of the West
Indies was not so great as elsewhere. He begged to
contradict that assertion. He had seen as good land in
the British West Indies as in either Cuba or Brazil.
All the planters wanted was labour and capital, and they
would produce as heavy crops as their slave•growing
neighbours. It was idle to say that they were interested
in maintaining a high price. On the contrary, they
were as much interested in diminishing the cost of pro-
duction as Hon. Members opposite, and only asked the
means to do so. As to worn-out estates, he did not be-
lieve in them. In Barbadoes and Trinidad, old colonies
where labour was plenty, he believed that they would in
a little time be able to hold their ground against the
slaveholders. As to the other colonies, let them exercise
all the skill and economy in the world, they would not
be for some time in a condition to enter into the compe-
tition which this Bill was calculated to force on them,
the fruits and benefits of emancipation would be re-
tarded, and thus the best possible argument would be af-
forded in favour of the slaveholder.

the three subsequent years was 644,145 cwt., a nd the
average for the two years 1846 and 1847 was 6 62,04)r
cwt.; so that there was an increase of importati on
the whole period from the diminution of the duties •
was, therefore, disposed to look to a different taus e for
the distress of the West Indies than the diminution °f
A
protection. Could it be shown that protection
lone the least good? He challenged any one to
,how him any unbroken prosperity in the %Vest Iselin
colonies for any period of long continuance.--(COies °
" Hear, hear.") And if he concurred in the protacts
'
now proposed, it was rather out of deference to the fa t
trigs of others than from any hope in his own mind. .a_.
the West India planters would derive any benet; t from
—(Hear.) But if they were to have protection at It;
tween this country and the colonies, how were they N
adjust the protection between colony and colony tr.
cause the cost of production was not the same in all ,A
colonies ? Barbadoes and Antigua, for instance, c
produce cheaper than the others. The protection to °at
colony, then, would be a bounty to the other, and it
was the view of the question taken by Mr. Marriott,. ae
sppeared from his evidence before the Committee, r
(Hear, hear.) Then, were they to tax the labourers °I.
this country for, as he would show, the most improvideilb
and extravagant management of estates that ewer
known ?—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Bernal.) He WOW
prove that to the Hon. Member for Rochester oia the
most unquestionable authority. The truth Inuit bf:
told.—(Cheers.) And the people of this cotintkri
must know it. This tax of los. was not to help the
labouring population of the West Indies, but to keep
up the estates in the West Indies, no matter be"
they were managed, and whatever was the cost of pro 7.
duction.—(Hear, hear.) Another ground put forwar es.
a justification for protection, was that of high Vro“eS.
This was the first time he ever heard such an arguelefc.
put forward. It was well known that the higher the
wages the cheaper the production, and for this reason'
that high wages were a consequence of skilled labour,
and large production of skilled labour. The great faelt
of the West India planters was, that they relied too
much en brute labour, and neglected the aid of science,
skill, and agricultural improvement.—(Hear.) eat°
Rico, according to Consul Crawford, the wages we're
ls. 6d. a day, and in Santa Cruz ls. Bd., according
Lord Harris. This was higher than was paid in the Pr'.
tish West Indies; and vet those islands were in a floe•
rishing condition. He believed that if wages were higher
in the West India colonies, that the planters would PT"
duce cheaper than they now did. It was said that the
Sugar Bill of 1846 ruined the Mauritius. Now he would
prove from the mouths of Mauritius merchants them:
selves that this was not so, because, in 1846 itself,
before the Bill of that year could have any effect, 01
,
made representations to the Government that, with the
largest supply of labour at the cheapest rate that Wai
ever known, they were ruined.—(The Hon. Gentleman
here read a statement made by the merchants of Mal'
ruins to the Governor, in which they said that Maur''
tius was ruined, that only the most favourably situ/
estates would yield a profit over the expenditure, so
that even these barely yielded a moderate interest on
the capital invested, notwithstanding the extent of the
crop and the high prices which existed.) This was hi
May, 1846.—(Loud cries of " Rear, hear.") In Sert"
1847, the Governor said that the condition of Mapritisli
was an enigma to him, and a melancholy one. Two
years ago the merchants told him that if they got
supply of cheap labour, and could raise 100,000,0001b5.,
they would not dread the competition of slave labour.
They had the cheapest supply of labour that was
ever
known, and their produce was more than they expected.
and yet they said they were ruined by the Bill
1846.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Mr. Hunter, one
the most eminent dealers of the Mauritius, said that
coolie labour was higher than slave labour-41)st the
total cost of a cooly, including rations, was 191., whilst
the cost of a slave was only 41. The Mauritius rape r•
chants in London laid statements before the Committee:
which showed that the produce of a cooly was two tons
and 3-sths, that reduced the'cost of sugar to 75- per
cwt. Now the price of a slave in Cuba was 1001, and
the interest of money there twelve per cent. Making t
fair allowance for the cost of wear and tear, and loss, and
for the difference in the rations, that would make .the
cost of a slave 181. 1 le.; and he produced, according tot,
the evidence laid before the Committee, three tons 01
sugar, which reduced the cost in Cuba to 6s. Old• per
cwt. That made a difference of Is. Bd. in the cost of
labour alone. But was there anything in that difference_
to justify a protection of 10s. fur which the people of
this country were to pay?—(dear, hear.) They hsd
no
right to call on the British public to pay for protection
till every improvement had been introduced into, the
West Indies, and till they reduced the cost of production
to the lowest amount.—(Hear.) He would show the West
India planters that they were a wasteful set 'of manu-
facturers—that they did not produce so largely or ma-
nufacture so economically as they ought.—(Hear, hear.)
And they ought to do both before they came to ask for
protection from the people of this country.—(Hear.) In
respect to Guiana, Dr. ',hears says that, by improved
methods of cultivatic:4, the produce of Guiana might be
increased 25 per cent. Lord Harris says that a large
increase might take place in Trinidad under a better
system. Mr. Ray says—" The hoe is still in general
use, and it is with reluctance that the plough is used.
The agents adopted an expensive mode of supplying
their stock of cattle. Many of the local journals bore
testimony of the same kind; for let it not •be supposed
that public opinion in the colonies was all on the side of
protection: The Berbice Gazette .and the Trinidad Spec-
tator spoke in reprobation of the bad mode of cultivation.
adopted. The Morning Journal; of Jamaica, says, "We
have too long persisted in the old humdrum system, and
in the use of the hoe." It had been said that the Co-
lonial-office disallowed laws which the Colonial Legis-
latures passed. He challenged Gentlemen opposite to
state one single good law which had been disallowed by
the Secretary of State. Since 1843 the colonial assem-
blies had full liberty to pass any laws they pleased. But
he had seen with regret, and not without indignation,
that attempts were made, between 1885 and 1840, to
bring back the negro who had escaped from the lash to
the condition of a serf, by means of the ingenuity of the
law. The Hon. Gentleman here quoted several Acts
passed by the Legislature of St. Vincent's, Barbed*,
and other islands, which subjected the negroes to im-
prisonment and the treadmill for slight offences. As
to squatting, the evidence showed that very little of it
existed in the West India Islands. With reference
to emigration he wished to know what the
West India gentlemen specifically meant by their cry
for more labour ? Did they mean that this supply
of labour was to be at the expense of the Government
at home ? He advised the West India planters to
concentrate their cultivation where necessary, ra-
ther than to diffuse it vaguely over large tracts. He
did not, however, believe there was so much additional
labour wanted as was represented, but rather a better,
more skilful, and cheaper method of cultivation. Mauri-
tius was an example in point that abundance of labour
was not the one thing needful, for Mauritius since 1843
had received 74,000 labourers, yet Mauritius was in a
state of deep distress. The real cause of that distress
was over-speculation, the indulgence on the.part of the
planters in highly exaggerated expectations. There
had been one remarkable omission in the whole discus-
sion on the subject: not a word had been heard from
gentlemen opposite as to the interests of the consumers;
yet surely the wants of the people here were not to be
altogether neglected for the sake of a particular class
in our colonies. In the slave-trade the only way in
which it could effectually be put an end to would be,
the rendering free labour cheaper than slave labour,
and he believed this to be in the hands of the West
India :planters themselves, if they would but heartily
adopt and carry out the eternal principles of free trade,
alike applicable to them as to all other classes of the
commercial world.

Mr. HAWES said he quite agreed with what had
fallen from the Right lion. Member for Oxford Univer-
sity on the previous evening as to the condition of the
labouring population of the West Indies being a❑ impor-
tant element in considering this question. If the Bill
of 1846 had tended to deteriorate that condition he
(Mr. Hawes) should have opposed it; but his firm be-
lief was that stripping West India sugar of all protec-
tion was the best way of insuring the welfare and hap-
piness of the great mass of the population. lie could not
trace the evils complained of by the lion. Member for
Bristol to the Bill of 1846, and therefore he felt bound
to adhere to the policy it established which was tempo-
rary protection to the colonies during a period of tran-
sition to complete free trade. Why was it necessary
now to modify that Bill? Two classes of reasons might
be given. In the first place, the commercial distress
prevailing throughout the empire had deprived
the West Indians of a portion of the time which
might be used in preparation for free trade.
Again the introduction of a superior quality of foreign
sugar which had not been anticipated had deprived them
of some of the indulgence which they had been promised.
But there was another consideration, and that was, that
it was the concurrent opinion of all parties that the
West Indies were in a state of great distress, and that
therefore, relief of some kind was absolutely necessary.
—(Hear.) In his opinion the plan of the Government
offered a prospect of the most substantial relief, and it
was for the West Indians themselves to consider whether
their condition would be bettered by the conflict of par-
ties and opinions which its introduction had occasioned.
Now, the Hon. Member for Bristol had asserted that the
West Indians had never been in such a state of distress
as at the present moment. If that were true, all former
complaints must have been mere cries of " wolf," while
the Present was the only foundation in truth. He would
not do them the injustice to think so; he believed that
there was some foundation in former complaints, and he
was prepared to show that in former times and on for-
mer occasions their complaints far surpassed what was
stated at the present time. In a report of the House of
Assembly of Jamaica prepared in the year 1804, it was
stated that although the abolition of the slave-trade
might be an effectual it was not the sole means by which
the West India islands might be ruined. The same object
might be effected more gradually by encouraging the cul-
tivation of sugar in the East Indies. The report went on
to state that every British merchant, holding securities
on real estates was filing bills in chancery to foreclose,
although when he had obtained his decree he hesitated
to enforce it, because in such case he must undertake
the plantation himself; which fatal experience told him
would be ruin. Nobody, continued the report, would
lend money on estates; in fact, so great was the distress
that the reporters feared that a faithful detail would ap-
pear like a frightful caricature. Ile (Mr. Hawes) defied
any one to sh sar such a state of distress from Lord
Harris's dispatches.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROBINSON—That was during the war.
Mr. HAVES—No; accounts of distress might be
quoted extending from that period down to 1843.

Lord G. BINTINCK said that his Hon. Friend Ahe
Member for Droitwich had so fully given the history of
the Committee over which ho had the honour to pre-
side, that he need not occupy the House at any length on
that portion of the subject. The Right Hon. the Chan-
color of the Exchequer had in his speech taken every
thing for granted, both as to the future production of
our colonial sugar and our colonial ruin, and also as to
'he revenue to be thence derived ; but facts alone must
he regarded, and the facts in no degree bore out the
Right lion. Baronet's calculations. Nothing could be
more exact than the inquiries which had been made by
the Committee in the ♦iew to those estimates upon
which they had founded their recommendations to Par-
liament ; and what had been the result of these calcula-
tions? Why, this, that upon the whole reriod
of six years, ending in 1854, there would be a revenue of
1,338,5001. arising from the plan proposed by the Coal-
mittee, more than would be realised by the plan pro-
posed by the Government. The proposal of the Com-
mittee was to reduce the duty on colonial sugar, and
though, of course, a portion of the benefit would go to
our colonial planters, a considerable part of the revenue
would then be levied out of the diminished profits of the
slave owner, a result which every man impressed with a
hatred of slavery must hail with gratification. There
could be no clearer proof of the accuracy of
the calculations upon which the Committee proceeded
than the fact that when it was known out of doors that
the Committee proposed to have a duty of 10s. on solo-
' nial sugar, and to retain the duty of 20s. on foreign
sugar, there was at once a fall of is. 6d. per cwt. on
colonial, and a rise of Is. 6d. on foreign sugars in our
markets, so that the relief to the West Indies would
be screwed out of the pockets of the slaveholders.
The Hon. Under-Secretary for the Colonies talked of
the Committee having omitted to care for the consumer;
whereas the Committee had shown themselves the true
friends of the poor men here—the real supporters of
cheap prices in sugar, by proposing those measures
which would maintain the competition of colonial with
foreign slave-grown sugar.—(Hear.), The Hon. Under-
Secretary denied that the Act of 1846 had had anything
to do with the ruin of the Mauritius, and had a memo-
morial or something of the kind to show that, in 1846,
Mauritius was in deep distress. Why, only in July of
last year the Hon. Gentleman himself made a grand
point by citing Mauritius as the seat of high prosperity.
—(Hear, hear.) And what said the dispatch of Gover-
nor Sir William Gomm of the 6th March, 1847 ? Why,
that the balance of colonial revenue in the Mauritius
over expenditure was, in 1845, 16,8161, and in 1846 had
risen to 50,9891. ; and for the then current year Sir Wil-
liam had estimated the gross value of the colonial ex-
ports over imports at 479,4151. But this was on a cal-
culation of 271. per ton being realised by the merchant,
making an aggregate profit of 600,0001.; whereas, in
consequence of the depreciation of the value of sugar,
occasioned by the introduction of free•labour sugar,
under the Act of 1846, instead of a profit of 600,0001.,
there was a loss of 600,0001., and half as much more.
If the Committee were chargeable with any omission at
all from its recommendations, that omission had relation
to the East Indies and Ceylon, and was wholly attribu-
table to the influence of the Government, which, by the
medium of the lion. Member for Westbury, had entirely
defeatod his (I, ,rd G. B, ntinek's) con,tant exer ion.,
and those or his friends in the Committee, to give due
weight to the claims of these Eastern possessions.—
(Hear, hear.) In Cuba, while the interest of the Eng-

Mr. BERNAL—That document referred only to
Jamaica.

Mr. HA.WES begged the Hon. Member's pardon ;
there were cases from several colonies of abandonment
of estates and general complaints of ruin. Now all this
had occurred before the first Sugar Bill, when Jamaica
had a monopoly, and ho defied any one to show a simi-
lar state of things under free trade.—(Hear, bear.) He
could show that from 1760 down to 1843 there had been
a regular succession of complaints of immediately pend-
ing ruin. If the quantity of sugar imported from the
West Indies from the year 1831 to 1841 and thence to
1847 were taken, a remarkable inference might be
drawn. And if they took the first ten years, it would
embrace a period of slavery, then of apprenticeship, and
then of entirely free labour. The average annual im-
portation during that period was 171,800 tons. For the
following seven years, commencing with 1841, when the
production of Jamaica was reduced to its lowest point
since 1831, the average annual importation was 127,32.3
tons ; the entire difference for the whole of the West
Indies being only 44,477 tons. That was the amount of
the whole annual decrease. But when it was recollected
that the duties between the West India and East India
sugar were equalised, and that there was an enormous
increase of sugar in Mauritius, was it to be wondered
that some diminution should have taken place? If he
took the four or five years preceding the present, he
found no decrease, but an enormous increase.
2,857,000
cwt.; the production was 2,453,000 cwt.; in 1845,
cwt.; in 1846, 2,152,000 cwt.; and in 1847, 3,022,000
cwt. This ,!id n. t ::how any i
r“-•"3''gn of Ow aba!:don
moot ut the cultivation of sugar. Looking to Jamaica
alone, the average production of the
three years, 1840,
1841, and 1842, was 608,750 cwt., whilst the average of

fish planters in the West Indies was being utterly demo- 1 Mr. LABOUCHERE.—I have no objection to answer
Ached—in Cuba the production of sugar had increased 1 the question of the Noble Lerd. I certainly have not
from 80,000 tons, in 1831, to 240,000 tons last year. seen the dispatch.—(Cheers.)
The Member for Westbury had endeavoured to show Lord G. BENTINCK proceeded to read some extracts
that the West Indies were not in that distressed state from the Jamaica newspapers. conjecturing that some
which had been set forth on that (the Opposition) side of dispatches had been kept back ; and said that since
the House. He went into a long history of the corn- ' the celebrated days of " green-bagism," and Majocchio
What
made at various times by the British colonists. with his "non mi ricordo," there had never been such a
What class was there in this country which had not notorious instance of short memory as that displayed by
1
from time to time complained of grievance and distress? the Hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary to the Colo-
But what class was there that had so much reason nies.—(Hear, hear.) On the 4th of May, a report was
to complain as our West Indian colonists ? After laid before the Committee from Mr. Stipendiary Strata
the war every class received relief except that class. this report had been accompanied by a dispatch from
Their taxes remained the same, whilst the value Governor Light, but that dispatch the Committee never
of their produce fell one-third, and the cost of cultivation saw. Mr. Strutt recommended the introduction of new
became greatly enhanced. The Member for Westbury, machinery, admitted that some proprietors might be too
as one argument in support of his position, argued that poor to purchase the machines, but blamed them for their
in computing the losses of the West Indians they ought apathy, and said the mode of manufacturing sugar in
to calculate as if they had realised all the sugar which Berbice was the same as it was thirty years ago. But
tremained unsold. This was, indeed, a new system of why was the dispatch of Governor Light held back,
arithmetic. Gentlemen sitting in their libraries eaten- which gave a very different account of the state of
bitted as if all the property of the West Indies could at • affairs, while that of the stipendiary was laid before the
any time be realised at any price. Only a few years Committee?—(Haar, hear.) It had been repeatedly urged
ago the property of the West Indies was calculated at that the want of resident proprietors was the cause of
one hundred and thirty millions sterling. What was its the colonial distress. This argument had been the main-
value now?—(Hear, hear.) The price realised by West stay of Earl Grey in the Colonial-offiee. By the same ar-
India and Mauritius sugars barely realised the cost of rival which brought Governor Light's dispatch, that of
production. Bat he was not going to argue the question the 24th April, contained a letter from certain of the
on free arade grounds, for the case was an exceptional colonists denying fhat there was any foundation in fact
one, and did not admit of being so treated. The facts for the supposition of his Lordship, that the proprietors
Were quite different from those which had characterised of West India estates were to a large extent non-resident.
the: free-trade debates. When the Legislature took Governor Lord Harris, in a dispatch of the sth of May,
away the slaves from the West India planters, it did said that the position of the colony was most deplorable,
to with a distinct and well-understood engagement that bankruptcy and insolvency were staring them in the
that they were to be protected in their own face, and that bold and immediate measures were de-
market against slave-grown sugar of other colonies. manded—adding that the question was whether the cul-
And let Honourable Members and Noble Lords talk tivation should be allowed, to cease, and the estates to go
as they would of the apathy of the West India planters, to ruin, or such assistance afforded as would enable the
that apathy had never hindered them from profitable cultivation to be continued. Such was the language that
cultivation under the old system of slave-labour, and had been kept back from the Committee. But he went
subsequent to emancipation of protection. If, therefore, further, and said that under the present grievous cir-
the planters in the British colonies were deprived, first, cumstances of the colony it would only be politic on the
of their machines by which their cultivation was carried part of the mother country to show some sympathy to
on, and afterwards of the protection to which they were wards it as early as possible. He (Lord G. Ben-
entitled in consequence of emancipation, had they not a tinck) hoped that the Noble Lord at the head
ight to complain of the bad faith of the Government and of the Government would make some satisfactory
the Legislature by which those acts of arbitrary injustice answer on the subject. Nothing was so repugnant
were sanctioned and perpetrated? The Legislature had to the feelings of the British people as a packed
treated the unhappy planters worse than Pharaoh did jury ; and he complained that there had been a
the children of Israel. They called upon them to make packed jury in this case ; that witnesses who would
bricks without straw, and then taunted them by saying, have given evidence in favour of the colonies were kept
"Ye are idle, ye are idle." Far better had it been for back, and those who told against them brought:forward.
them to have bad Egyptian taskmasters than to live In conclusion he had only to recommend the Noble Lord
'tinder such a government as that of the Noble Lord.— at the head of the Colonial Department to attend to the
' (Laughter and cheers.) But the Government was going opinions of a Whig statesman, who said that a refined
to grant half a million of money in order to en- policy had ever been the parent of confusion and ever
ourage and carry out a plan of emigration of la- would be—that plain, honest intention, which could as
bourers to the West Indies under their immediate easily be discovered as fraud would be detected at last,
superintendence and control. And this was to be the was the best that could be pursued.—(Cheers.)
great boon that the West India planters were to receive. Mr. G. THOMPSON having moved the adjournment
Ile could show the House, by the testimonies of Lord of the debate (on the suggestion of Lord J. Russell),
Harris and Governor Light, in what condition the ne- Lord J. RUSSELL said ho did not wish to address
groes arrived in the West Indies when imported into the House on the question at so late an hour, but would
those islands for the purpose of becoming labourers, and avail himself of the motion of adjournment to defend
then the House would be in a condition to judge of the his Noble Colleague from the charge made against him
value of such free labour. Lord Harris, in one of his by the Noble Lord opposite. There was certainly
dispatches, says that, from all he had witnessed at Tri- nothing in the character of his Noble Friend, public or
nidad, the undertaking could never be successfully car-
private, to justify the Noble Lord in charging him
ried on as a public enterprise. It must be left to with fraud. He defied the Noble Lord to say that there
Private individuals, who, if they were allowed to carry was, or that any one would be justified in casting the
out a plan of supplying African labourers to the West slightest stain upon his integrity. Upon what did the
Indies, would not enter upon such a scheme without Noble Lord found his accasjition? Upon the proceeding
being amply provided with capital, and who would be which took place in referente to a dispatch which arrived
able to find sustenance and profitable employ for the im- on the 27th of March, and }which dispatch had been dealt
Migrated labourers. Both Governor Light and Lord with in the ordinary course, and, according to the este-
Ilarris spoke of the condition in which the Africans im- blished practice, had first been sent to a clerk of the par-
Ported under the supervision of the Government had titular office to which it belonged. That officer marked
arrived from Sierra Leone in their respective colonies. that it was important, and that it ought to be laid be-
fore the Committee. On' the same day his Hon. Friend
Those poor creatures bad been landed in a most ema-
ciated state, and about 10 per cent. of their number (Mr. Hawes) assented to that proposal, and on the 30th
died. But their was another consideration to be taken of March Lord Grey made a minute that it was to be
laid before the Committee. On the sth of April his Hon.
jet() account in dealing with the question of immigration
F
of African labourers by Government agency, and that Friend, when examined before the Committee, said he
w
Was, the exp, uses attending the operation. He held in was not aware of any dispatch of any importance having
his hand a statement of the result of one of these experi-
been withheld—supposing at the moment that the dis-
Ments, which he would shortly detail to the House. The patch in question either was then before the Committee,
Government ag eats chartered a ship called the Banga-
or that it would be laid before the Committee.—(Hear.)
- lore to proceed to Sierra Leone, in order to receive a The Noble Lord, therefore, was not justified in saying
'
' :certain stipulated number of liberated Africans, and to that his (Lord J. Russells) Noble Friend (Lord Grey)
convey them to Trinidad. The price paid for each
wished to conceal or suppress any dispatch, or with-
-African was 71. ; and it was a condition of the charter hold it from the Committee. If concealment were
Party that a certain number,was guaranteed at this price, his object, he would have withheld it from that
H
and that whether they were embarked or not the Go- House.—(Hear, hear.) But such mean frauds—such dis-
Sernment paid the full price for the stipulated number. honourable practices—were not the characteristics of men
who held high offices in this country, but of men who
A surgeon and a superintendent were likewise provided
at the expense of the Government. The Bangalore ex-
were engaged in those pursuits which the Noble Lord
• Pected to have conveyed 225 or 226 liberated Africans so long followed.—(Loud cries of " Oh," and groans
fromeSierra Leone to Trinidad ; but alter visiting all the from the Bentinck and also from the Radical party.)
settlements on the coast, and waiting the time named in The Noble Lord might have greatly distinguished him-
the charter, the ship sailed, and he had the certificate of self in detecting frauds about the name or age of a horse
her arrival at Trinidad with one liberated African —(Renewed groans)—but when he imputed to men of
On board.—(Loud cheers, and laughter.) And this was the character of Lord Grey the fraudulent conduct of
the 'result of one of the first great steps to be taken
suppressing the truth, with the view of evading a know-
ny the Government in order to benefit the West Indians, ,
ledge of the truth, he totally misconceived that Noble i
and for which the Legislature was called upon to ad-
Lord's character, or the character of any man with
, since half a million of money. The cost of transport- whom he (Lord J. Russell) had been acquainted as
ing this one negro, with his suite of surgical attendant holding high office in the State. The imputations of
and inspector, was upwards of 7001., and for the same the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn were utterly un-
' money a governor-general and his suite might be con- founded; and he was convinced, when the whole of
veyed to the East Indies.—(Great laughter, and cheers.) these matters came to be discussed, it would be univer-
And with such a specimen of the activity and intelli- sally admitted that the Noble Lord in this case, as in
• ,R nee of Earl Grey and the Hon. Member opposite, the others—that, for instance, of the Right Hon. Gentle-
' West Indians were to be told they were apathetic and man who was late Prime Minister—(Loud cries of
devoid of understanding.—(Hear, hear.) The complaint Oh,")—and, within these few'days, respecting a gen-
Which he made was that the truth was suppressed in the tleman holding a subordinate office in the Board of
,colonial department, and that the information that was Trade—that the Noble Lord, in making these reckless
.• reeeived there was not fairly laid before the House.— and unfounded imputations, injured not the characters
(Oh,and hear, hear,) The Hon. Member opposite (Mr. of the men whom he assailed, but his own.—(lronical
45, Hawes) had made an explanation the other night, cheering.)
Which he had not the good fortune to bear, of the acci- Mr. DISRAELI could not help thinking—had the
dent which bad occurred relative to the dispatch of Go- Noble Lord allowed the debate to terminate, or entrusted
,Vernor Grey, dated the 27th of March. He had told the its future destinies to the volunteer who moved the ad-
. 41.0 use that it was the intention of Earl Grey and of him-
journment—(A laugh)—that neither the reputation of
Self to send that dispatch to the Committee at the time it the Noble Lord nor that of his Noble Colleague at the
arrived. He admitted that the date of its receipt at the head of the Colonial Department would have at all cur-
Colonial-office was the 27th of March, and unless he was fered.—(Hear, hear.) it was for the House to say whe-
kiarepresented the Hon. Colonial Under Secretary stated ther the latter Noble Lord had been vindicated with
• that on the same day the dispatch reached his hands, success—(Great cheering from the Opposition and Ra-
With a minute on it to this effect:—" This is a copy of dical parties)—seeing that the statement of the Noble
the dispatch for which the doCmmittee on West India Lord the Member for Lynn, be it right or wrong, was
istress have asked. We had a copy of the document supported by muc h detail and strong testimony. Had
which was required in the votes of the House of As- the Noble Lord at the head of the Government said any-
lenably, It was to be sent to the Committee to-day." thing which should influence the House on this subject?
dispatch,
it not be better to send instead a copy of this —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord's colleague had been
which is important, with the report and evi. accused of a suppressio veri, and the Noble Lord's an-
aence which we have got now for the first time? There sorer was that he knew nothing about it.—(Conservative
1.1!-e two copies. And so it is desirable to send it to-day.' cheers.) Of three charges he only noticed one, and of
the
reached his hands from the Secretary of State with that he said merely that he knew nothing about it. It
re words, " I agree with you that this dispatch ought to was not decorous or decent of the Noble Lord to meet
r given at the same time with the report . his Noble Friend's statement in that manner.—(Cheers.)
Sian evidence to which it refers." He (Mr. Hawes) The Noble Lord had dwelt upon the high character and
•taded, " I agree," and on the 30th of-March his Noble pedigree of his Noble' Colleague, but that character
bValend made a minute to this effect, " This may be laid was only to be maintained by meeting mantully what-
efore the Committee as suggested." (" Hear, ever charges might be brought, no matter from what
!leer," from Mr. B. Hawes.) So that it appeared a quarter. The Noble Lord bad sneered at a noble pas-
Ircussion on that very dispatch had taken place betwen time, with what justice let the gentlemen of England
2,6 Hon. Member and the Noble Earl, first on March decide this; however, he would say, that his (Mr.
.1.,`. and then on March 30.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. I)israeli's) Noble Friend's experience in such matters
,rder Secretary cheered. Did he mean to deny the had proved of good service in that House. His ho-
act was was so? The House would presently judge of the nesty, his indefatigable powers of investigation, his in-
,, (74110 of the ironical cheers of the Hon. Member.— domitable spirit that would not be cowed ny any bravo,
Cheers again.) The ' Hon. Under Secretary, having no matter what might be his position—(Tremendous
E-n2htersigned the minute of the 28th of March, made by cheering)—that would not be bullied eitber in the ring
arl_. Grey on the dispatch, must have had possession of , or from the Treasury benches— (Cheers and laughter)—
at that time, and have been cognizant of its contents, had done good service in exposing the manner in which
tW let him (Lord G. Bentinck) refer to the evidence the business of the Colonial-office was carried on.—
givend by the Hon. Under Secretary before the West (Hear, hear.) As to the circumstance in private life to
India Committee. He did not see the Right Hon. Gen- ' which the Noble Lord had with such exquisite taste
11,elpan the Member for the University of Cambridge in alluded—(Hear, hear)—on that occasion, his Noble
sil a. place, but the House would bear in mind what oc- Friend did not, like other public characters,' pocket the
:urred on a former evening, when, in answer to an ap- testimonial offered to him by
a committee of which the
etral from the Hon. Under Secretary, his Right Hon. Duke of Bedford was chairman—(Loud cheers)—but
riend revived the recollection of the Hon. Gentleman appropriated it to the use of those class
es whose honesty
csvlall respect to the
,a/f,idence given by him before the , he wished to improve, as it was now wished to improve
. est Indian Committem and he must also remind the the Colonial-office.—(Cheers.) Surely the Noble Lord
ouse of the imlirtie.nae attached both by Earl Grey did not refuse the advice of his Grace the Duke of Bed-
and the Hon. Under 'Secretary to the dispatch of Sir ford because he was a member of the Jockey Club.—
C. Grey. Mr. Goulburn asked the Honourable Mem- (Hear, hear.) He should only say further that the
tier (Mr. Hawes) whether he could account to the charges which had been made by his Noble Friend
Committee for ;the absence of any accounts from the were before the country, and must receive a more satis-
Governor of Jamaica similar to those received from the tactory answer than that which they had just heard
other colonies? The answer given by Mr. Hawes was, from the Noble Lord.
"I imagine you allude to the Blue Book?" But that Mr. LABOUCHERE complained of the recklessness
was not what Mr., Goulburn meant. He repeated that with which the Noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn
be asked if there were no accounts from the Governor
made charges against public servants.—(" Oh!" and cries
of Jamaica, and the Honourable Under. Secretary cut of " Name.") He would instance the cases of Mr
short the question by saying, .. those accounts are gene- Porter and Mr. J. Wood, the Chairman of the Excise,
rally comprised in the annual report called the West whom the Noble Lord accused in his draft report of hay-
India Blue Book." But Mr. Goulburn was not to be put ing "fenced" in giving his evidence.—(Hear, hear.)
aside from his purpose by the dexterous Under-Secre. The fact was, that whenever the Noble Lord detected a
Lary, and he repeated his question, e Does not the mistake in any public document, he immediately imputed
- Governor of Jamaica write dispatches respecting that it to fraud and design. Withto the question
I.sland, independently of the annual statements contained before the House, he (Mr. Laboucl regard
would only say
M the Blue Book?" And what answer did the witness, that the Noble Lord had not theere slightest shadow of
oh.)
the Committee,
theb Honourable Under-Secretary, make to this question? foundation for his assertion.
a—m(Oemb,beohr
Sir E. N. BUXTON,
""'e begged the House to mark it. "I am not aware,"
,hail the
_Honourable Gentleman," of any dispatch which stated his belief that the charge against the Hon
Wl.Tinthdoeeurei
itnilkitnlige
"4 been withheld from the Committee."—(lmmense Secretary of State was utterly and entirelywii;
ttheers and counter cheers.) Now, if the minute which foundation.—(Hear, hear.) He full • agreed
..1_43 Honourable Under-Secretary had read was not Noble Lord the Member for King's fully
in
r"ctiitten after his evidence was given to the Committee— it unfortunate that the error had been made,t but he
iii h, oh)—what must the House think of the memory of persisted in believing it an error, and nothing more.
the honourable Under-Secretary ?—(Hear, bear.) On Mr. HAWES said that the Noble Lord had
twice
I,"us., 27th of March the dispatch was an • important one; brought forward charges which it was impossible to pass
tia` on the sth of April, nine days afterwards, the by without notice. He (Mr. Hawes) had stated, in
na`n_PUrabla Under-Secretary knew of no important dis- I answer to the first charge, that the dispatch of the
;,,-„,`,Cei which had not been already laid before the Com- 27th of March was an important dispatch, and required
--44 t tee.
to be laid before the Committee. His Noble Friend re-
vlSir. B. HAWES—Read on. ceived it on the 28th, and returned it on the 30th of
,h.tord G. BENTINCK would read on, and he would May. The Noble Lord now again made the charge in
ait7 how the Hon. Member had held the Governor of the same way on a Friday night without notice, know-
4aactt rip to the indignation of the people of Jamaica ing that it could not be answered before Monday.—(Oh,
reertile West Indian community, for not having made a oh.) That was not all. The Noble Lord had made a
!,,,spiteteselinte.tion o f the real state of that island, whilst the charge which he (Mr. Hawes) would call upon him to
dittoes wherein he did so was withheld from the Com- prove—a charge which he would tell the Noble Lord was
if h_
c%and then the Hon. Member might plume himself wholly and entirely false.—(Chair, chair.)
tna,."
attributed
In a subsequent answer, the Hon. Gentle- The SPEAKER said the Right Hon. Member was not
the 4 if uted the receipt of no important dispatch to entitled to say that the Noble Lord had made a charge
a very
facto the Governor having only been in the island which he knew to be false.
aha r. 7 short time. He then said there was a dispatch, Mr. HAWES had said the charge was false.—(Hear,
ac ' that the Committee should have whatever the Colo- hear.). All he wished was that the charge shoud befall
141 _ft.
did
appear,
was in possession of. The dispatch, when it investigated.
ea „!PPear, was found wholly to refer to the agriculture
• ine
tbibeisland, and would have come in the very nick of minutes and. memorandum were got up subsequent to
ti to enable the Committee to decide a very important the examination, the Hon. Gentleman must have been
I ttbe degree and extent of protection that ought to troubled with the shortest memory that bad been heard
Witntd. ed. to- the colonies. That dispatch concluded of since the days of Majocci, with his non mi ricordi—
Drie_ this important passage:ea. A permanent gazette (A laugh)—for though there bad been three separate
I 6ra_o.r less than 30s• per cwt. for West India Muscovado, discussions on the subject, he distinctly stated that no
ati,„lllY believe will cause the greater portion of the dispatch had been received connected with the agricula 1 gar cultivation of this island to be abandoned ; and if ture or social state of Jamaica. He was prepared to
wa
upon-rftto be called upon for a recommendation founded stand by what he had
ban-
the ,4,L00? most comprehensive and painstaking review of dying charges of falsehood--(Hear,
s.vidideannced.he judged, not by
ta'_' le subject which lam capable ,to take, it would as they appeared in the
should be Mr. BAILLIE
ma
dsdoel de
m
put to him by the
heeh'"t the duties on British Muscovados
the_gat towards the limits of a penny per pound, and (Mr.. Hawes) that hereh
sow'" on foreign to twopence.—(Hear,the hear.) He would in answer to a question t
of Lb_ Right Honourable Gentleman, the President Member for Cambridge,tnhledrieoclnaoruerda hear)—but by facts
that
swat Board of Trade, whether b hadlbaßl etihgehHt Member
Hots.ouse,
ho had not received any
d,
that. . enot seen or been other dispatches from Jamaica.
a‘m L.' Of dispatch being received, before it was Mr. HAWES explained that the. question was asked
fore the House. )by Mr. Goulburn after his
es s) examination

by the Committee, and after the arrival of the West
India packet, and he understood it to refer to informa-
tion received by that packet.—(Oh.)
Mr. MILES contended that as the dispatch in ques-
tion was proved to have been received, it would not do
to throw the blame of withholding it on any mere clerk
in the Colonial-office.
Lord PALMERSTON said, if the duty rested with a.
clerk whether it would do or not, the neglect must be
charged to that clerk.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord read
the questions put to Mr. Hawes, and the answers given
by him to show that there was, in reality, no conceal-
ment on his part, and that he acted under the firm con-
viction that the official direction to produce the dispatch
had been carried into effect. It was for the Committee,
when they found the dispatch was not produced, to have
called for it.—(A laugh.)
Mr. HENLEY did not think that the explanation of
the Noble Lord or the Hon .Gentleman had been very sa-
tisfactory ; but, after all, the question was in a narrow com -
pass. It was a question of tacts, and by facts it must be
determined. There was no reason given for not laying
the dispatch before the Committee. On the whole, it
was not surprising that some persons should suspect
that a little practice had been used.—(Hear, hear.) It
was at all events a very odd transaction.—(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of GRANBY said he was not surprised
that the Noble Lord should have hesitated so much as
he did in reading the answers to the questions to the
Hon. Under-Secretary by the Committee, because those
answers were in direct contradiction to what the Hon.
Under-Secretary had stated that night. He stated that
i was the fault of a clerk that the document was not laid
before the Committee; but the Hon. Under-Secretary
said that the document was preparing, so that he must
have known that it was not in possession of the Com-
mittee on the sth of April.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that there was nothing inconsistent in the answers given
by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hawes).
The debate was then adjourned till Monday.
The House adjourned at Half-past Two o'clock.