The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-08 00:00:00

COUNTY COURTS.

Sir J. DL CIeWORTH wished to ask the Secretary
of State for the Home Department whether or not the
Government had decided on the payment of the officers
of county courts by salaries instead of fees; and if so, at
what time that arrangement was intended to be carried
out.
Sir GEORGE GREY said the subject had been
under the consideration of the Government, and that
an Order in Council was now in preparation and would
be submitted to her Majesty at the next. Council upon
the subject.
ENCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. HERBERT wished to know what course the
Government intended to pursue with respect to the
Encumbered Estates (Ireland) Bill?
Sir G. GREY said that he should propose that the
House should sit on Tuesday next at twelve o'clock, in
order to resume the debate on the Bill, and that then
they should determine when they would next proceed
with its consideration.
LAW OF MARRIAGE.
Mr. S. WORTLEY gave notice that on an early day
he should move for leave to introduce a Bill to amend
the law of marriage.
DERBY ELECTION.
Mr. STAFFORD, pursuant to notice, moved that
Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the Clerk
of the Crown, to make out a new writ for the
election of two burgesses to serve in this present
Parliament for the borough of Derby, in the room of the
Right Honourable Edward Stella and the Honourable
Frederick Leveson Gower, whose election has been de-
termined to be void. There were now only two
writs left, namely the Derby and the Leicester, but, after
what had transpired with reference to the notoriously
corrupt borough of Leicester, it was not his inten-
tion to move the issue of that writ during
t
the present session. All these cases of bribery might
now be inquired into, and he was very glad to hear that
the Bill of the Hon. Baronet opposite had been taken up
by the Government.
Sir J. HANMER said the opinion of the
.House was
strongly expressed in favour of his Bill when it was first
under discu:sion ; but at that period, looking to many
important questions Government had on hand, it
was impossible to expect them to take it up.
The Noble Lord, however, since he had got rid of
many of those questions had taken up the Bill, and he
was glad to say that there was now every prospect of
this important subject being fully inquired into.
Mr. FREWEN objected to the issuing of
i the writ. It
was inconsistent to suspend the writ, and n a few days
after to issue it. If a division took place, he should vote
against issuing the writ.
Mr. HUME suggested that the motion should be with-
drawn. If it was persevered in he was sure the House
would not agree to it. The Honourable Memberfor
Northampton had connected his name with the proceings at Leicester, which he said were disgraceful. He
had nothing to do with Leicester whatever, but he re-
collected when the Tories in that borough had prac-
tised most disgraceful conduct; and if there was impro-
per conduct on the part of the Reformers it must have
proceeded from the contamination of the practices of the
old Tories. The Hon. Member might throw as much
dirt at him as he pleased, but it would not stick, but re-
bound on himself.
Mr. ANSTEY said the issuing of the writ would not
impede inquiry any more than a Member occupying his
seat during the inquiry into a contested return impeded
the inquiry into the merits of the case.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY supported the motion. He
was averse to corrupt practices, but a writ should not be

suspended.
Mr. O'CONNOR would say nothing of the purity of
his constituents, but he could prove the case of money
having been spent in bribing the electors of London.
Thirteen non-electors had been on his committee. A
party had sent them 651. for their services, but they re-
turned it.
Captain HARRIS said that bribery was a misde-
meanour, and could be punished by law.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the House bad already
decided five times that these writs should not be issued.
He should therefore move as an amendment that the
writ should not issue until the 15th of August next.
Mr. STAFFORD said, that when he joined the name
of the Member of Montrose with the Radicals of Leices-
ter, he did not mean it in a personal
What sense;
was he onlyro-
ad-
verted to him in his political views. now p
posed to be done by the Noble Lord was what be had
frequently asked for—that the parties should be put out
of suspense, and that the House should declare whether
they would issue the writ or not. He would not, there-
fore, oppose the amendment.
Mr. HENLEY said it was understood that nothing
would be done with regard to the issuing of these writs
without previous notice.

Lord J. RUSSELL said he should then give notice
for Monday next.
The motion was then withdratvn-
SUGAR DUTE%S.
On the order oF the day for going into Committee on
the Sugar Duties being read,
Mr. HUME presented a petition from Kingstown, Ja-
maica, signed by one thousand proprietors,
of distress, and praying relief. complaining
don from
The Marquis of GRANBY presented a pets
Liverpool, praying for inquiry into the condue: f the
Colonial-office in withholding dispatches.
Mr. BRIGHT called attention to a memorial trans-
mitted from the Chamber of Commerce of the 30th May,
with regard to the sugar duties. He wished to know the
views of the Government on the subject of the memorial.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he could not give a
reply without referring to the memorial.
Mr. ANSTEY wished to know whether it was the in-
tention of the Government to permit the West India
colonies to import slave-grown sugar to make molasses
for exportation, and also for the purpose of being refined
for exportation?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had
not given notice of the question, and he was not pre-
pared to give a reply.
Mr. CARDWELL wished to know whether it was in-
tended that the House should meet to-morrow, if the
Bill went through Committee to-night, in order to re-
ceive the report?
Lord J. RUSSELL said, he could not say then, as it
must depend on the state of the business.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to call attention to
the dispatch of Lord Harris, of the 21st of February,
1848, and to ascertain whether the statements in that
account were his real sentiments. The opinion of Lord
Harris clearly established the ,cost of production to be
such that the colonists were entitled to the greatest ex-
tent of relief this country could afford. In Trinidad, in
the year 1847, the cost of production reached lls. lid.
per cwt., so that the production really cost more than
was obtained for the article in the market, leaving no-
thing for the interest of capital. Lord Harris went on
to say that the quality of the sugar grown in the British
islands was inferior to that produced by slave labour,
and he accounted for this fact by the want of expe-
rienced labourers which the colonial planters sutler.
He had a right to claim Lord Harris as one of the
strongest evidences of the difference of the cost of pro-
duction in free labour and slave-grown countries, and
that his testimony should be added to that of almost
every other person who had given evidence on the
question. He could extract from blue books the essence
on the important point of the cost of production. The
statements made in the course of the debate by the Hon.
Member for Westbury, and the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Manchester, struck him as being more
remarkable than others he had heard. The Hon.
Gentleman estimated the cost of production in Cuba at
15s. 10d. per cwt., while the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Milner Gibson) fixed it at 10s. 4d. in Jamaica. If
those statements were correct it was quite clear the House
was losing time, and that so far from Jamaica wanting
protection, ;it was Cuba that stood in need of it;
but the truth was, that two more extraordinary blun-
ders never had been made. He could produce fifteen
witnesses to prove that the cost of production did not
exceed from 85. to 12s. per cwt. Indeed it was estab-
lished by irrefutable evidence that, while in slave-grown
countries the cost of producing sugar varied from Bs. to
10s. in British possessions, the expense at the present
moment varied from 16s. to 245., or the expense of the
latter was to the former as two to one, while the quality
and proportion were in the ratio of 98 to 75, or as 6 to 5.
In determining the scale of duties those matters ought to
be borne in mind.
The SPEAKER then left the Chair, and the House re-
solved itself into Committee on the sugar-duties resolu-
tion, Mr. BERNAL in the Chair.
The CHAIRMAN having read that portion of the
first resolution determining the scale of duty to be
charged on colonial Muscovado sugar.
Mr. BAGSHAIVE withdrew and Mr. BAILLIE post-
poned amendments which they had intended proposing.
Mr. BARKLY, pursuant to notice, moved that from
and after the sth July, 1848, to the sth July, 1854, in-
clusiw, the duty on British plantation Muscovado sugar
should be 14s. per cwt. ; and on foreign Muscovado,
18i. 6d. He explained the grounds on which he made
this proposal. His object was to continue the present
duties on sugar imported into this country for a period
of six years. He did not propose to alter the rates on
either foreign or colonial sugar. He merely submitted
that the Bill of 1846 should remain in full force for six
years, with this alteration, that he proposed to make a
change in the standard sample, in comparison with which
the duties at the Custom-house were levied on inferior
descriptions of sugar. He further proposed that there
should be only one class of white clayed sugar, instead
of two classes, adopting the proposition of the Govern-
ment with respect to brown clayed sugar, and of the
Right Hon. Gentlemen the Member for the University of
Cambridge in reference to brown clayed. The Hon.
Gentleman, after some further remarks which were
barely audible in the gallery, read the following scale of
duties, which he intended moving as amendments to the
Government resolutions, and he proposed the portion of
the scale directly referring to British plantation and
, Colonial sugars :

BRITISH PLANTATION.
From and after July 5, 1848, to
July 5, 1854, inclusive.
• s. d.
1 1 0
O 18 8
O 14 0
O 5 3

Double Refined, &c.
Single Refined ..
Muscovado ... ..
Molasses ... ..

FOREIGN.
From July 5, 1848, From
to July 5,,1845. July 5, 1854,
a. d.
Double Refined, &c.... 1 7 9
Single Refined 1 4 8 Same rates
Brown Clayed, or equal as British
thereto ... 1 1 7 Plantation.
Muscovado ... 0 18 6
Molasses ... 0 6 11
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that, as it was the duty on Muscovado sugar which was
under the consideration of the Committee, the first di-
vision must be taken on the question whether that duty
should be 13s. or 14s. as proposed in the scheme of the
Hon. Member, The Hon. Member proposed, in the
first place, to raise the duty on foreign brown clayed
sugar to 11. ls. 7d., instead of leaving it at 205., as
proposed by the Government. He proposed to main-
tain that duty for six years, and to main British Mus-
covado at 14s. for the same period, instead of allowing
it to fall 'gradually. But he did not confine his foreign
duty to brown clayed, for he added in his schedue
"or equal thereto.' The Honourable Member con-
tended that the process of classification would be
rendered more simple, but he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) contended that nothing could be plainer than
the mode adopted at present. The effect of the first
part of the Hon. Member's resolution would be to raise
the pricey of sugar ls. 7d. per cwt. to the consumer,
and would give less protection to the producer than the
Government proposition. Next the Ron. Member pro-
posed that his duty should continue for six years, and
then drop all at once. Surely the effect on trade would
be greater by such a proceeding than if the Committee
adopted the plan of Government. The third objection was,
that the duty on colonial sugars would be 14s. instead of
18s. as proposed by Government; and this, while from
every island complaints were eoming that the high duty
was one of the greatest evils of which the colonists com-
plained. (The Right Hon. Gentleman here read an extract
from a Jamaica memorial in proof of his assertion.)
They (the Government) proposed to give to the con-
sumer security for permanet classification and gradual
reduction in price, while, as they conceived, the colonists
would have greater virtual protection. This would in-
volve a loss to the revenue of 240,0001. in the first in-
stance, and the question was whether it would be ultimately
made up by increased consumption. The beneficial aetion
of the low price on the revenue would not be confined to
the year in which the reduction took place, but would be
permanent, inasmuch as the habit of consuming sugar
would be promoted by the power of the people to consume.
Taking the average consumption now at 351 b. per head,
and giving credit for a reasonable increase consequent
upon improved trade and additional employment, of which
there was every prospect, he saw no reason why the total
consumption should not amount to 305,000 or 310,000
tons in the next year; and should that be the case, and
if the chief increase should be in colonial sugar, the loss
to the revenue would be much less than had been calcu-
lated. Perhaps there would be no loss at all. At all
events, at the end of the six years, he had every reason
to believe the increased consumption would fully make
up for the total reduction proposed. But an increase of
duty, while it would inflict an injury on the consumer,
would in the end occasion a loss to the producer. He
did not think that a 14s. duty would give to the colonial
grower equal advantages to those which he would derive
from the Government plan; and believing that that plan
would, without ultimate risk to the revenue, benefit both
the consumer and the producer, he must oppose the pro-
position of the Hoe. Gentleman.
Mr. GLADSTONE said, that he should give his
vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Barkly)
in favour of a duty of 14s. on colonial sugar. While he
did so, however, he could not help stating to the House,
that he did not conceive that any addition to protec-
tional duties would have the least effect in bettering the
present deplorable condition of the colonies. While he
confessed that he did not quarrel with the purposes for
which the grant now proposed was to be given, namely,
that of emigration, he was at the same time of opinion
that the most effectual mode of benefiting those colo-
nies would be to give the holders of the property in
them a grant, which would enable them to promote and
further the purposes of agriculture. Should the money
now proposed be given away in that way, he should not
be averse to the plan proposed by the Government, but
he was certain that if no relief was given to these colo-
nies, other than ,that which was proposed by the pre-
sent measure, those colonies would be reduced to the ut-
most ruin. It was not a protectional duty that would
rescue those colonies from the deplorable statehat ihe n which
they were were at present.—(Hear, hear.) W
ceived to be the most important part of the question,
was the duty on Muscovado sugar of 145., asproposed
by his Hon. Friend. He conceived that the West
Indies were entitled to that protection which his Hon.
Friend demanded for them, and while the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said,
that the reason why the Government had proposed the
present course of a yearly and gradual reduction of the
duty on sugar, the produce of these colonies, was that
these colonies should be prepared to withstand
the competition which would ensue after the
expiring of this four years sliding-scale, so far
from agreeing with him, he thought that the
adoption of such a system would have the worst
possible effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said
that the present measure would set the question of sugar
at rest; but while the fact was, that no later than yes-
terday thirty thousand tons of foreign sugar were ad-
mitted, no doubt to the exclusion of their own colonial

sugar, it was not, therefore, likely that any measure
such as the present would set the question at rest. He
did not conceive it necessary to go at any length into
what was said by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer as to the permanency of the
duty proposed for six years by his Hon. Friend. He con-
ceived that duty would be far preferable to that graduated
scale proposed by the Government, as it would give par-
ties an inducement to invest their capital in West Indian
property, certain as they must be that such investment
would be safe. In regard to the financial portion of the
question, it would be most disastrous to the country. The
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had himself admitted that, under the scale of duties pro-
posed, there would be a lost to the revenue during the
' hoe :year these duties came into operation, of no less
than 24,000/., while in the third year of their operation,
there would be a loss to the revenue of 70,000/. It was
said that the reason for this reduction was for the pur-
pose of benefiting the consumer, but be did not think
that a reduction of the extent specified in the resolu-
tions, while it imposed such a great loss to the amount
of the revenue, would be of the least benefit to the pro-
ducer or to the consumer of sugar. Besides, he thought
that nothing was more dangerous, so far as the revenue
was concerned, than to introduce any measure which
should affect it at a remote period.—(Hear, hear.) No
one could tell what would be the circumstances of those
colonies a few years hence, and therefore, instead of a
measure such as the Government had proposed he would
rather accede to the permanent one as contained
in the amendment of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Barkly).
But whatever might be the increased consumption, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had no right to take credit
for it again, seeing that the Noble Lord (J. Russell)
had already included it in his estimate of the general
increase under the head of Customs, when he made his
financial statement, and calculated that the revenue
from the Customswould be nineteen millions and
three-quarters.—(ear hear.) He must, howevet,
doubt whether these anticipations of increased consump-
tion were well founded. They had yesterday had laid
upon the table of the House the accounts containing the
tables showing the consumption for the first five months
of the year, and comparing those aceounts with the
tables for the first five months of 1847, he found there
was a great falling off in the article of sugar. The con-
sumption in the first five months of 1847 was 2,473,000
cwt., while, in 1848, it was reduced to 2,455,000 cwt.
The last of these five months was the one which most
unequivocally proved this real falling off in the con-
sumption, because the duties were more equalised. Com-
paring it with the corresponding month of 1847 the de-
crease amounted to 60,000 cwt. The Right Honourable
Gentleman had taken the year 1846 as the basis of his
calculation; but he must protest against his doing so.
1846 was a year of unusual energy and enterprise, and
expansion of trade. Could any one, looking at the actual
state of things in'lB4B, expect equal results? He felt it
the more necessary to advert to this topic, because the
Right Hon. Gentleman had taken the opportunity of
making a new financial statement, of sending forth a
word which had been music in the ears of the merchants
of this country. He told them that the deficiency in the
revenue this year would be only half a million, instead
of two millions, as had been anticipated. He must,
however, protest against the system of voting away
large sums on mere vague assurances like these, and un-
til it was clearly shown in what way the deficit was to
be supplied.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentle-
man spoke of a revival of trade as certain. He confessed
he saw no indications of it, although he admitted that
the Right Hon. Gentleman possessed better sources of
information than he did. With respect to the estimated
improvement of the revenue, he was prepared to give the
Chancellor of the Exchequer credit for the accounts set
down for reduction's in the Navy and Ordnance, and to
the extent of a million of that estimated improvement,
but as to 500,000/. of that estimate, he said it was a prac-
tical fallacy to send forth a statement which included
that sum as increased revenue. It was, in fact, merely
taking an amount which would have gone to the dimi-
nution of the estimates next year to add to the income
of this year. He would therefore deduct that half mil-
lion from the estimate of the Right Honourable Baronet.
Then there was 300,0001., which it was admitted
the Ministerial measure would cost the revenue next
year, and in addition that most anomalous item—which
he hoped soon to miss from the estimates—" Navy Ex-
cess." must be taken into account. That was 300,0001.
more. These three items, added to the admitted defici-
ency of half a million, according to the new statement of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, made a total deficiency
for the year of not less than 1,600,6001.—(Hear.) But
a single deficit was a matter of small consequence com-
pared with its probable result. There was a tendency in
one deficit to lead to another, and he had also observed
that there was a reluctance on the part of the House to
provide means for meeting each deficit as it arose. Last
year, in the midst of peace, they had been compelled
to have recourse to a loan. This year, instead of
making any arrangements to pay off, or otherwise
provide for that loan, they had another large defici-
ency, and so far as he could see from the indications in
the commercial world, a similar deficiency might be
expected next year.—(Hear, hear.) He would give the
House of Commons the credit of saying that he believed
that when it refused to grant the increase of the income-
tax, it was not because it was unwilling to make pro-
vision for the expenditure of the country, but, as had
been truly, though delicately said by the Right Hon-
Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth (Mr. Baring),
because the House had not confidence in the estimates
of the Government, and in their financial policy.—(Heals)
Last year was an extraordinary year, and had, no doubt,
demanded extraordinary efforts; but that was an addi-
tional reason for their drawing a broad line between an
extraordinary and an ordinary year. They ought in
such a year as this, which might financially be
called an . ordinary year, to take care to equalise
the income and the expenditure. Unless this was
done, he feared that the deficit of this year would be fol-
lowed by another next year. There was no reason, in
his opinion, for expecting that the trade and commerce
of the country would materially improve. Taking the
exports of British manufactures for the years 1846, 1847,
and 1848, he found a decided falling off in the latter
year. There were roe signs of revival in the first five
months of this year,lllEd at all events we should be pre•
pared to look the question fairly in the face.—(Hear,
hear.) They were bound to do this, especially when
they saw that next year the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer would probably have to state that there was a still
further decline, and a still further deficiency, to be met
in 1849. If they did not meet the exigency of the case
at once the Right Hon. Gentleman would have a plau-
sible ground for calling upon the House to tolerate
another deficiency. He felt strongly that neither the
Government nor the House were doing their duty to the
country if they did not come to an immediate determi-
nation to take measures for equalising the income and
expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) He must protest in the
strongest manner against voting away large sums
of money in the manner which this plan
confessedly did in the first year. He consi-
dered it a most dangerous and dishonest policy, and the
House ought not to be called upon to vote that money
until the Government came-forward and told them that
they were prepared to submit to the House a plan, and
to enforce that plan with all the power at their disposal,
for reducing the expenditure of the country, and thus
bringing our outlay within its income.—(Hear, hear.)
With regard to the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Barkly), he supported it on the broad ground, that it was
much better to make a reduction of 4s. at once, than to
spread it over four years. It would be more immediately
felt, and tend to give a stimulus to consumption, than the
contrary plan, which he considered opposed to the policy
of the soundest financiers. He protested against the plan
of the Government, not because he thought the increase
of consumption which it anticipated was impossible, but
because if it did come, it had already been taken credit
for by the Noble Lord, and could not therefore be
counted twice. He proposed also, in the name of the
colonies, who had a right to a larger measure of relief
than that proposed by the Government, which ought to
go further than it had done, and he should feel it to be
his duty, in all ulterior stages of the measure, to make
every effort to secure justice to the colonists.—(Hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he did not complain that
the Right Hon. Gentleman should have directed the
attention of the House to the financial position of the
Government. It was natural that he should have done
so, after the recent statement of his Right Honourable
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and also re-
membering the great attention which the Right Hon.
Gentleman had paid to that subject. But what he did
complain of 'was the manner in which the Right Eton.
Gentleman had spoken of the measure of the Ministry,
by characterising it as dishonest.
Mr. GLADSTONE—AIIow me to withdraw that
word. It was merely used in the heat of debate, and
without any intention of imputing personal dishonesty.
What I meant was, that it was a dangerous and delusive
policy to be anticipating the revenue of future years to
meet the expenditure of this.
Mr. LABOUCHERE was sure that the word was not
used in a personally offensive sense ; but he must ex-
press his surprise that the Right Honourable Gentle-
man should speak thus of this measure, having been one
of a Government that introduced a measure on the tim-
ber duties of precisely the same nature. He thought the
Right Honourable Gentleman must have a very short
memory indeed to forget that fact.—(Hear, hear.)
There was another statement that he had heard with
great surprise, namely, that this was an ordinary year.
Why, if this had not been a most extraordinary year,
we should by this time have been in the very spring-
tide of prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) With reference to
the gloomy views of the Right Honourable Gentleman
as to the prospects of trade and commerce, he could not
concur in them. While the European trade had been
almost entirely closed, the trade dependent on our
own internal demands had striven with a vigour
which was perhaps never surpassed, and which proved
conclusively that our resources were undimished,
and only waited for more favourable opportunities
of exhibiting their full force. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had referred to the returns just laid on the table as
to the consumption of the first five months of the year,
and had shown a falling off in one article, sugar. But if
the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken other articles,
which quite as conclusively tested the consuming powers
?f the country as sugar, he would have found an increase
instead of a decrease. For instance, tea. In the month
of Junek 1847, the importation of tea was 339,000 pounds.
In June, 1848, it was 419,000 pounds. In the coffee
trade there had been a slight falling off; but, looking at
the whole of the tables, they showed in a most satisfac-
tory manner that this country had maintained its ground
in the midst of a crisis which had ruined other countries.
—(lean) He would not on that occasion interrupt the
dabate on the sugar duties, and which he hoped was
now drawing tea close, by following the Right Hon.
Gentleman in his financial criticism. Other opportuni-
ties would occur for discussing that question. With re-
gard to the amendment of the Hon. Member for Leo-
minster, he must say that he preferred the measure of
the Government to that amendment. The plan of the
Government reconciled the interests of two great parties
in this matter—the West India planters and the con-