The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-17 00:00:00

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„_ Jammom•ffamoomma.....l•lll.lll. ".6.14 'll
11
will not deny that although I should not have thought ;it
necessary to make any general or vague declarati P, y let
that, being called upon to state my opinions upon iti Cat”" -
thin question, I think I am bound, so far as I can,
give my opinions as to the mode in which tlis-Goveetie •
went should be conducted with reference tostitiy-plarte-'l.
ticular question. 1 think, in the first place, that.iteia-note -
absolutely necessary that any Govenameafteethouldi„ • - • -
be formed, either at present or in thks4-fiet -.see i•-•>
the members of which should all hold precisely ibe-isinie;'-'""
opinions. I admit that every member of such Stiptitia.V,T_S.kNe't,'-'
went should agree upon the main principles, but it is
not necessary that they should all agree upon every
question that may come under the consideration of Par-
liament. Such was the view taken in old times, and
such was the mode in which, in old days, statesmen of
great name had conducted the affairs of this coisntrye
with great success, Upon those principles they bait
formed their Ministry. In the year 1784 Pitt had mem •
hers in his Government who were entirely disagree"
with him on the question of Parliamentary reform—ata
very great question in those days, and a very great'
question at all times, until the Act of 1832 was passed.-
He had colleagues in his Government who disagreed also•
with him upon the important question of the slave trade..
Mr. Fox succeeded to the Government of Mr. Pitt, aim •
he formed a Government in which were Members dif:- •
fering with him on Parliamentary reform, and on the
Roman Catholic question. When a Government was
afterwards called by Lord Liverpool, Lord Liverpool
comprised in that Cauinet members differing entirely on
the Catholic question, which I think one of the most im-
portant questions of the day. Sir, with respect to this
latter case, I think that this combination of men differ-
ing on the Catholic question was carried on too long---
;et I think it was the question of carrying on a war with
France. When it was a question of endeavouring to
carry on resistance against a *nighty military chief who
threatened the existence and independence of this
country, we ought to have had an: Admialetration fully
competent to carry cut the various slepartneents of the
Government—men who could act together on enost ques-
'ions of the Administration, although they rliJered on
.3onie questions of policy. Now, Sir, the Right Hon..
Gentleman the Member for Tinnworth, when he formed
his Government, seems to have made it with much
greater unirormity of opinion, and a greater affinity of
conduct on the part of the members of his Administra-
tion and party generally than either Pitt, Fox, or Lord
Liverpool ; but although the Right Honourable
Baronet has great talents and great powers of
conducting a Ministry, and from various cir-
cumstances at the time succeeded in his attempt,
I do not think if now attempted, it would be very suc-
cessful again, or advantageous to the public. Now, Sir,
say this because there arc several points on which I
will readily admit that the members of the Administra-
tion, of which I have the honour to be the bead, are not
completely agreed in opinion. With respect to the opi-
nions of Lord Grey on the Irish Churches, I do not con-
cur in many of the statements made is this and the other
/louse of Parliament. Some Members of the Adminis-
tration, again, think that I have gone too far with re-
spect to the statements I have made with regard to the
Irish Churches. I will state at once what is my intention,
and the intention of my colleagues, with regard to the
affairs of Ireland. I consider the social grievances of
Ireland are those which are most prominent—(Hear,
i
hear)—and to which it is most likely to be n our power
to of erd a complete and immediate remedy ; hut by-
some remedy, and seine kind of improvement, I have te
hope that some ten or twelve years hence the country,
ly the measures we shall undertake, will be itt a far
better state as regards the dreadful destitution and misery
now prevalent in it. We have that particular object ill
view, and shall endeavour to undertake it. I believe we'
are all of the same mind on the subject, and we will not
be led away by our differences on subjects on which we
cannot effect any immediate good.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
Sir, secondly, with regard to the franchise in Ireland—my
opinion is, that it is a great mistake to suppose,
as some persons seem now to suppose, that there
is no immediate connexion between political franchise
and social condition. My opinion is, that in proportion
as a man is raised by the enjoyment of this fteanchise,
which belongs to a free state, his energies and int:tistrY
are promoted and he aspires to a better and higher e;')n-
tlition ; and in so saying I agree with those who hay et
been the greatest lights and ornaments of that House,.
which if I go more into detail I could presently show.
It will be, therefore, my endeavour to procure, to obtain,
for the people of Ireland the enjoyment of equal political
franchise with England. My Hon. Friend tells me that
it is necessary that I should make some declaration of
principle. When asked on this subject, I gave him this
Answer, ‘' As it was necessary I slfould make that decla-
ration in the year 1836, I contended in this House,
though not successfully, that with regard to Municipal
Franchise the
levelpople of Ireland ought not to be on a
politicallower than the people of Englanid." I
shall contend in the year 1846, in conformity tcr that
which I contended in 1836, and I do look to be able to
complete those measures which I have in contemplation.,
because I have heard from many of those who are op-
posed to me in opinion, that they have admitted that the
franchise in Ireland ought to be raised to a level of that
in England. That is, from those who opposed fit for-
merly, and it is honourable in those uho change t 1 err
opinions on the subject, and who think that the
equality ought to be established, to avow that suck is
their opinion, and to aid in such endeavOur. With re-
-pect to the churches in Ireland, and the endowment of
the Catholic church, I voted with my Hon. Friend, the
Member for Sheffield, in favour of providing for the es-
tablishment of Maynooth out of the funds of the Pro-
testant Church. We were defeated by a very great ma-
jority, and the opinion of the House was adverse to that
Brant. I afterwards voted to that end, and gave my
zealous support to the Bill for the establishment of May-
nooth out of the Consolidated fund. I made no difficulty
with respect to the Bill, because it was the motion of
my Hon. Friend. It is now endeavoured to ascertain
my ()pinions with regard to the Protestant Church, and
with regard to the Catholic endowment. Ido not think
it is necessary I should regard those opinions at the pre-
sent moment. But that what I must confess at the pr.t.
sent moment to be my unalterable belief is, that with
regard to what some men propose, namely, the destruc-
tion of the Protestant Church in Ireland—l believe no
worse or more fatal measure can be adopted ; or one
less calculated to better the condition of the people. I
believe it would be exceedingly injurious, because I be-
lieve that many of the most loyal in Ireland—many of
those who are not attached to the connexion with this
country—would be alienated by the destruction of that
Church to which they are fondly attached. I believe, in
a religious point of view, it would be the commence-
ment of a religious war ; that there would be that
which at present does not prevail—a most violent and
vehement attack upon the Roman Catholic reli-
gion ; and that the Roman Catholics themselves would
be the first to blame the destruction of that Church. Well,
then, Sir, can you endow the Roman Catholic Church ?
Mr. Pitt was of opinion, as is quite evident from
his speeches and from memorandums which were left to
his friends, that it was possible to endow, or to make
some provision for the Roman Catholics by the state,
:,13, belief is, that, if Mr. Pitt had carried that measure,
he would have carried a nfeasure which would have been
conducive to the welfare of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
Conducive to the maintenance of the union.— (Hear,
titan) Conducive to the peace of the United Kingdom.
--(Bear, hear.). Now, in conformity with that opinion,
I gave my vote In 182 ;. twenty-one years ago, in favour
of the motion of Lord F. Egerton, now Lord Ellesmere,
.which was to the effect that a provision ought to be
made by law for the maintenance of the Roman Catholic
priests.—.(hear, hear.) But what do I find at this
moment? What I find at this moment is, that generally
.peaking, the Church of England, the Dissenters of
England, and the Established Church of Scotland, and
the Free Church of Scotland. the Estabsished Church

of Ireland, the Protestant Association of Ireland, and,
astly. the Roman Ca:holics of Ireland themselves—

(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—are all vehement in op-
tesition to such an endowment.—(Cheers.) Why, Sir,
I received a notice this morning— I know not whether I
have it with me—but I received a placard from Edin-
burgh, in which the Roman Catholics at Edinburghuo
declared that they w ould resitt towtobot
of
ttheirt
their power any plan for tshier, p_
.i"Cannot say that
priests by the state.
syvnx,
ti am bound consistently
that is a Ineaeure
with my duty to b,ing under the consideration of the
[louse, until I see some signs of a more favourable dis-
position towards it on the part of the Roman Catholics.
—(Hear, hear.) I should say if that measure, or any
measure, were urgent, thtit although it were impracti-
cable. I might still be f,und to urge it in the counsels of
'he Sovereign, and resign if I could not carry it. But
I must confess, with respect to that ecclesiastical ques-
tion of L eland, there is not that emergency that could
induce me to propose any such tneasure ; and I do say
that there are measures which may be beneficial—which
.nay be highly beneficial to Ireland—(llear, hear)—and
which are practicable—(Hear, hear)—and I do not see
the necessity of urging forward those which I confess to
he impracticable.—(Elear, hear.) Sir, if any Members
of this House choose to express, or feel, or act upon as
want of confidence in my Administration, on the ground
that I acs not disposed, in their opinion, to deal satis-
factorily with the present condition of ecclesiastical
affairs in Ireland—that Ism not disposed to say that that
Church is consistent with all justice, and must be kept
up in perpetuity on the plea of maintaining the endow-'
meat principle for a Protestant minority, and the volun-
tary system for the Roman Catholics—that if any persona
are disposed to declare a want of confidence in me on
that ground, I really cannot help them forming that
conclusion. I cannot, in my mind, see that I am per-
fectly satisfied with that conviction.—(Hear, hear.) I
cannot pledge myself, if I found the people of England
and Scotland disposed to what I think a more just and
useful arrangement, I will not pledge myself to be the
opponent of such a scheme.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, my
Hon. Friend went on to ask whether I should promote
an extension of the franchise ill England. He alluded
to that word which has been ofien thrown in my teeth,
by those who wish to diminish any reputation I might
have in the public, namely, " finality."—(Hear, hear.)
Now, the word " finality," be it rcluembered4 was no
word of mine,—(hear, hear.) It was a word in7eoted
for the purpose of expressing a system to which I nevitAr
gave, I think, any countenance. 'What happened was
this, that my Lord Grey end my Lord Althorpe—the
one in the other House of Parliament, and the other in
this House of Parliament—hed brought forward a great
measure of Parliamentary reform ; and when they were
asked by many persons, who said, we shall be ready to
support this reform, if you intend to stop here, but we
cannot support it if you mean it to be a step in some
other scheme of Parliamentary reform which this is
made to accomplish, end they said, " No, we do not
intend any other scheme than this. We consi-
der this as a final measnrart4iis is the only mea-
sure that we propose." -(Hear, hear.) Well,
sir, I repeat to this House that such has
been tho language of my Lord Grey, and my Lord Al-
thorpe, and that I did not entirely concur with what
they,,thenssairr. I sat with my Noble Friend Lord 41.
thorpe; and in consenting to his language t did not think -
a wold be co teat or bawd PP 49 WPB