The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-08 00:00:00

army, navy, and ordnance estimates, without at all
diminishing the efficiency of those services. At the best
he believed that a large proportion of this alleged re-
duction would be merely a postponement of accounts
until next year, but how stood the actual fact? Why,
thus: that in the past financial year the Government had
expended on the naval service 400,0001. beyond the vote
which they had obtained under this head, which 400,0001.
they must consequently set against the 300,0001., lefty.
ing a deficit of 100,0001. in this item instead of a surplus
of 300,000/. Nothing could be more mischievous than
the mystification of expenditure and income accounts
which the Government was too much in the habit of at-

,empting. He should give his cordial support to the

amendment.

Mr. C. BRUCE said that, if in the present state of
our revenues, the Hon. Member for the West Riding of

Yorkshire could show how the finances were not to be

severely injured by the reduction of the sugar duties—
the weight of which, be it observed, no individual con-
sumer felt—he would richly merit another 80,0001. at
the bands of the public. This was a question upon
which depended the ruin or rescue from ruin of our
West India colonists; and still more, upon which de-
pended the abo ition. or the aggravated continuance of
the slave trade.—(hear, bear.) The whole mischief had

arisen from the de moralising and se lfisli principle of free
trade as embodied in the hackneyed maxim of " Buy in
the cheapest and sell in the dearest market." He had no

wish to see any vote of the House on this question have
the effect of producing v. change in the Government of
the country at this time. He considered that any such

change would be a national misfortune; for, while he

greatly disapproved of the conduct of some of the depart-
ments of that Government—he would not specify which
—he regarded with entire satisfaction the energy and
ability which had characterised the administration of

public affairs by other departments; and he would spo-
on), as peculiarly able able and energetic the conduct of
the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home De-
__

partmeixt.—(Hear, hear.) Whilst the Government was
making concessions to the West Indies, they ought to
take care to make them effectual, and not to offer such
as were inadequate to the purpose. They ought, in
order to make the protection effectual, to grant the
amount demanded by the West Indians; otherwise they
sacrificed their principles of free trade, and sacrificed
their money without doing the good which they intended
to effect. He should give his vote for the amendment of
his Hon. Friend.

Mr. BAILLIE said that a duty put on an article of
consumption did not always impose a fresh burden on
the people who consumed the article so treated. Ile felt
this difficulty with respect to the amendment of his
Hon. Friend, that if he toted for it he could not bring
forward the amendment of which he had given notice.
He could not anticipate what the feelings of the Ame-
ricans would be when they read the speech of the Right
_ _

Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, whose on;;
consolation seemed to be in the hope that a revolt
amongst the slaves in Cuba and in the southern states of
the union would be the most probable remedy for the
evils of slavery.—(Cries of " Divide.") The Right
Hon. Baronet had not laid down any course which he
would pursue with respect to the colonies, nor could
any one say whether he was prepared to abandon them
or not.—(Divide, divide.)
Mr. GODSON said that the choice which it was for
the Committee to make at present, was between the
plan of the Government and the proposal of the Hon.
Member for Leominster. In his opinion the plan of the
Government was preferable. There were eight plans be-
fore the House, of which that proposed by the Hon.
Member for Montrose appeared to him to be the best cal-
culated to meet the case. It was not fair to the West
Indian planters to treat the question so entirely as one
of revenue. The only way to increase consumption was
by lowering the duty; and when it was considered that
the war duties were levied on sugars up to so late a pe-
riod as 1845, there could be no difficulty in tracing the
causes of the distress that had existed amongst the
planters, for they got very little for their sugars beyond
the duty. The Government had promised the planters a
loan or a gift of 500,0001., but he would much rather
they paid the 1,300,000/. which was due to the colonists,
in which case they could promote immigration them-
selves. For the reasons he had stated, bur, merely as a
choice of evils, he felt bound to support the proposition
of the Government.
Mr. MOW AT T, who was interrupted by loud cries of
" Question," " divide," expressed his regret that Go•
vernment had departed •from the principle they had
themselves laid down in 1846. They heard great com-
plaints of the interruption of public business arising
from lengthened debates—(Hear, hear)—but he thought
that the present proposition, if acceded to, would re-
open the free trade question, and pave the way for
endless discussion.—(Hear, hear.) He had no faith in
it as a measure of relief to the planters, neither did he
approve of the amendment of the Hon. Member for Leo-
minster. Under these circumstances, he had made up
his mind to take no part in the division one way or the
other.—(Laughter.)
Lord sIEORGE BENTINCK moved the adjournment
of the debate.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the House had lately
appointed a Committee to consider upon the best means
of expediting the public business.—(Hear, and laughter.)
He could have no hope of the recommendations of that
Committee proving effectual, unless the House, having
entered upon a discussion, made a determination to go
at once to a conclusion. They were then sitting on
Friday night, the 7th July, in continuance of a debate
which had begun on the 16th June.—(Hear, hear.) lie
could not see why the House should refuse to continue
that discussion on the present occasion. It had been
discussed in the early part of the evening, when they
had not nearly so full an attendance, with great ability,
by the Right Hon. Member for Oxford University, the
Hon. Member for Liverpool, the Right Hon. Member
for Dover, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade, and the Hon. Member for
Westbury, and the arguments had, in his opinion, been
nearly exhausted by those Gentlemen. They had also
heard the views of Gentlemen interested in the West
Indies. The Noble Lord who for so many months had
attended the West India Committee was fully entitled to
be heard, and he had no doubt the House would hear the
Noble Lord, no matter what might be the time of night,
—(Hear.) He really could not consent to the adjourn-
ment of the debate until the House had testified its opi-
nion by a division.
Mr. GOULBURN was understood to suggest the
propriety of acceding to the wishes of the Noble Lord.
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the adjournment „. SO
Against ... 211
Majority ... ss• —l3l
On our return to the gallery,
Lord J. RUSSELL was consenting to the adjourn-
ment of the debate until Monday, expressing a hope that
the House would then go into Committee of Supply.
Mr. HENLEY was glad the debate was adjourned, for
it was probable the Noble Lord who moved the adjourn-
ment would have spoken two or three hours.—(Groans
and laughter.)
Colonel SIBTHORP said if they were to take votes
on account to-night they might overdraw. He im-
mensely objected to go on with such votes at such an
hour. It was a very dangerous proceeding. For his
part he did not know what there was iu the Exchequer.
There was the Court of Rome Bill upon the paper.
Were they going to take that? He wished they would
say what they were going to do.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD should feel it his duty to
object to go into Committee of Supply at that hour.
Lord J. RUSSELL asked was it really intended to
delay the business of the country in this way?
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said he had a notice of motion
on the paper to be brought on on going into Committee
of Supply, and he objected to proceed at that hour.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would state on Monday
on what day he would go into a Committee of Supply
again, and then the Hon. Member could bring forward
his motion.
BIr.STUART thought theobjection to go into Supply
was most unreasonable and ant air, but not near so unfair
and unreasonable as the conduct of the Government in
trying to prevent the Noble Lord the Member for Lynn
from addressing the House.—(Groans, and cries of "Oh.")
Lord J. RUSSELL denied that he had endeavoured
to prevent the Noble Lord from speaking. His only
wish was to prevent the repeated adjournment of these
debates. Members often rose to speak at one or two in
the morning, and the Noble Lord need not have feared
obtaining the attention of the House.
Mr. STUART essayed to speak again ; but his voice
was drowned amid groans and cries of " Oh."
The CHAIRMAN then put the question that he do
report progress, and ask leave to sit again, which was
agreed to; and he then left the chair.
SUPPLY.
The House having resumed,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
that the Speaker do leave the Chair, in order to go into
Committee of Supply, whereupon
Captain BOLDERO said the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had stated the other night that certain reduc•
Lions might be made in the ordnance and other estimates.
He wished to have a detailed account of those proposed
reductions, showing their character, amount, and the
reasons for the reduction. He should also like to know
when the navy, army, and ordnance estimates were to be
brought forward, and the order in which they would be
submitted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the votes of the present session had been taken on ac-
count. Until the Committee on the army, navy, and
ordnance estimates had made their report, the votes
would continue to be taken in the same way.
Captain BOLDER() said his question had not been
answered, whereupon
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that when the estimates
were brought forward he would state the amount of the
reductions to be made, and, if necessary, print the par-
ticulars. As to the " reasons" for these reductions, it
was more usual for the Minister to state them than for
the Government to put them on paper.
The SPEAKER then put the question, when
Mr. KEOGH objected to going on, in consequence of
having a motion on the paper.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would state on Monday
when the Hon. Member would have an opportunity of
bringing forward his motion.
Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to call attention to the
fact that the Committee up stairs would not be able to
report upon the army and ordnance estimates this year.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he would consider that point.
The House then went into Committee of Supply,
when

Sir R. PEEL moved a vote of 20,0001, on account
of the British Museum.
After an observation from Mr. WYLD, the vote was
agreed to.
Mr. WARD then moved a vote of 400,0001. on ac-
count of the navy.—Agreed to.
Mr. PARKER moved a vote of 30,000?. on account
of public buildings.
Mr. OSBORNE asked if any part of this vote would
be applicable to the Houses of Parliament or Bucking-
ham Palace ?