The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-12 00:00:00

GROUP VIII,

THE EDINBURGH, LEITH AND GRANTON

EXTENSION.

The Committee on this group resumed their sittings at twelve
o'clock to-day, in Room 31, Mr. Hawes, chairman.

Mr. Grainger was cross-examined as to the line crossing several
streets at Leith, to the great injury of the public, inasmuch as it
would have the effect of closing those streets altogether. The public
opposed this interference with the thoroughfare.
The Committee said that they considered it unnecessary to hear
more evidence, and without clearing the room they declared the
preamble not proved.
Mr. WHATELET was then heard as to the branches. He opposed
the atmospheric line, on the grounds that the promoters had not got
the sanction of the Admiralty to cross the harbour of Leith.
Mr. HOPE would admit that consent had not been obtained, but he
could inform his Learned Friend that the line could be constructed
without crossing the pier, that part being a very subordinate one of
their seheme.

Mr. W HATELEY resumed. lie opposed the atmospheric line as un.
called for, because unnecessary to the convenience of the public.

GROUP IX.

CALZDONLAN (Tzinvsnwr AND 33EA.NCHES).

As arrangements respecting the junctions to be effected by this
scheme with the existing lines south of the Clyde could not be come
to this morning, it was agreed to postpone its further consideration
tlll the 27th, in order to get the assent of the House to certain devia-
tions that would be required to meet the objections of the Committee,
but which involved an infringement of the standing orders.

GLASGOW AND GREENOCK (POLLOC
AND GOVAN BRANCH).

The case on behalf of this Bill having closed to-day, the Committee
declared the preamble of the Bill not proved.

The remainder of the sitting was occupied till four o'cloek with
the Glasgow Southern Terminal, when the Committee adjourned.

GROUP XIII.

The Committee met to-day at twelve o'clock, Sir William Clay
in the chair. Members present, Earl Jermyn, Lord Shelburne, Mr.
James Ainsworth, and Mr. Curteis.

GLASGOW, numpßiEs, AND CARLISLE.
The case on behalf of this line having closed on Friday last, the
case for the opposition commenced this morning on the assembling
of the Committee.

Mr. COCKBURN said he appeared on behalf of the Glasgow and
Carlisle road trustees, and the grounds on which he did so were that
the line crossed their road twice on the level, between Dumfries and
Carlisle, whereas the Caledonian crossed the road by bridges. The
petitioners likewise thought that the Caledonian served the wants of
the district better than the Dumfries scheme. The case of Scotland,
in regard to compensation, was also different to that of England, and
the petitioners complained that due compensation was not given to
the road trustees for the abstraction of traffic which the Dumfries
line would occasion.

The CHAIRMAN suggested that those points were more subjects
for clauses than to be brought against the preamble of the Bill.
Clauses ought to be drawn up to meet the objections submitted to
the Committee, when, if the preamble was agreed to, they would be
considered. _ _ .

This course being assented to, the Committee proceeded to the
consideration of the

CALEDONIAN (EXTENSION AND
BRANCHES).

Counsel for the promoters, Mr. Sergeant Wrangham, Mr.
Cockburn, Mr. Hope, Mr. Rickards, and Mr. Pickering.
Mr. Graham, the agent of the Bill, was examined as to compliance
with Mr. T. Duncombe's resolutions, and the necessary documents
in relation thereto put in and received.
Mr. Comm:mix opened the proceedings for the opposition of the
Caledoniaa against the Dumfries scheme, and also on behalf of the
Dumfries branch of the former Company. He said he would reserve
his statement till the close of the evidence he intended to call, when
he would make a review of the whole. He hoped also, before the
close of the evidence for this Dumfries branch, that the Caledonian
Extension Bill would be read a second time, and ready to proceed
with in Committee, in which case it would not be expedient or just
to give any decision till that was likewise gone into, as it formed a
material point in the Caledonian case.
Mr. Locke, civil engineer, said he was the engineer of the Cale-
donian Company. His attention had been called to railway commu-
nication with Scotland in 1836 or 1827. Some time after that a com-
mission was appointed, for which he made a survey, and laid a re-
port before the commissioners. The Caledonian trunk line was the
result of his survey. This Line was substantially adopted by the com-
missioners. When the Caledonian Company was formed, witness
was appointed its engineer, and the present Caledonian scheme was
brought out. Nis scheme was brought under the considera-
, Lion of the Board of Trade, as was also the Dumfties
line on the one side, and the Hawick branch, in connexion with the
North British, on the other. He quite agreed with the passage in
the Board of Trade report, that there was not traffic to support two
through lines. With careful consideration that was his deliberate
opinion. Last year, he believed, he estimated the Caledonian to
yield but 5% per cent., after paying working expenses. That esti-
mate included all the Glasgow and Carlisle traffic, and a consi-
derable portion of the Edinburgh traffic also. He calculated the
whole receipts of the Caledonian to be 224,0001. Deduct-
ing 197,000/. for working expenses, that left 117,0001., which
was 834 per cent. on the whole capital. He was quite sure that the
Dumfries line and this could not pay together. The Caledonian
Company had already expended from 200,0001. to 300,0001., and the
expenditure was now about 50,0001., and would soon be double. At
the present moment 7,000 men were at work. All the works were
contracted for and the land bargained and paid for as it was used.
He calculated that the line would be completed by 18 months unless
a great number of Bills were carried and workmen could
not be obtained. Had he conceived last year that this
Dumfries line on the one side and the Hawick Extension
on the other, would be granted this year, he would not have advised
those contracts to be entered into. It was his opinion that the Cale-
donian line was the best line to the north as well as to Glasgow and
Edinburgh. The Edinburgh and Glasgow traffic would be much
crippled by rival lines, but the north traffic could never be taken
away. The north traffic, however, would not at all compensate the
Company for the capital expended. Last year, after long and anxious
inquiries in both Houses, and after the examination of about a
hundred witnesses, both Committees decided in favour of the Cale-
donian scheme. The Dumfries branch was then struck out as not
being sufficiently digested, and being strongly opposed by the Annan
people, because it did not touch there. This year a branch
was proposed which went from Dumfries, by Annan, to Gretna.
Even, as between Dumfries and Glasgow, the distance by
the Caledonian scheme was shorter than the Dumfries scheme,
the Caledonian scheme also connected Dumfries in a better manner
with Edinburgh. The inhabitants of Paisley would also, he believed,
be at least as well accommodated as by the Nithsdale scheme. As it
respects Dumfries, the inhabitants of Ayr, Maybole, and Girvan'
would be accommodated by the Ayrshire and Galloway line from
Ayr to Castle Douglas. He considered the inhabitants of Carlisle
and Canonbie would also be better accommodated by the Caledonian
scheme than by the Nithsdale. Should the Caledonian extension
line be granted Ayrshire generally would be well supplied, and there
would exist no reason whatever for the formation of the Nithsdale
line, on the plea of accommodating local traffic. He had kept in
view from the beginning that the Dumfries traffic would be an im-
portant hem in connexion with the Caledonian scheme.
He had estimated last year to run through from end to
end four passenger trains and two goods trains ; the passenger trains
to carry twenty persons each. Ile applied the same data to the
Dumfries branch. He had made allowance for all possible traffic,
and this was the result. lie was quite certain that the two lines
could not exist on the traffic, and had he thought that two such lines
would be sanctioned he would not have advised any of his friends to
take a share, or have taken one himself. The competition that mast
ensue would only end in a combination, from which the public would
greatly suffer. Looting at the table of the towns from which the
Dumfries and Nithsdale scheme expected their traffic, he saw many
places from which the Caledonian line took credit for traffic last year.
Cross-examined by Mr. Foasrrn—lie would not say that the
Ayrshire and Galloway line would be the best route from
Dumfries into Ayrshire, but it would be a. convenient
one. He did not know what sort of line that. was, as he
had nothing to do with it. He bad no objection to a line
from Kilmarnock and Dumfries if it could be shown that the local
traffic would warrant it, and if the Caledonian scheme and extension
were opened, and not likely to suffer from the competition of this
Nithsdale line. Still he thought the two lines too near, and the
country too thinly populated, to warrant the construction of both.
He was decidedly of opinion that there waysinngoti trafficlo per twocent., Isis viewslines.
If the Caledonian line was opened and pa
would be very much modified ; then his opinion might be, that there
was room for another line. At present it would be hard on those
who had embarked their capital in the Caledonian scheme to allow
another line of railway without waiting to see what the traffic of
the line already granted would be. The Caledonian promoters as-
ingsoci the whop of Punitive trade lest you. ue admitted tlae

branch now proposed was substantially the same as the south portion
of the Nithsdale scheme of last year. Until the issue of the
Caledonian was tried he did not think any new
scheme of the kind like the Nithsdale should be
sanctioned by Parliament. In doing this, he did not think the inte-
rests of Ayrshire would be sacrificed, as they would be 'consulted by
the Caledonian Extension. He thought that nothing at present
made. ap
te
aec st,utaTs whenhbrleee ooa
fim:btonhruoe. neatogHml o'
He
should be done that would damagethe construction and carrying out
of a great national scheme like the Caledonian. The whole capital of
dis-
tancem trafficcapitalr.fL, fromoa
.r.
,s beenotupl
nbiredoreoi
promised
uictsgeredetEwasttsd
Edinburgh,
sodnptfhbri
ntsueehapt.
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ufle:hhe satisfied
yygthi r
ntotthmfoa
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to-morrow
oesa3tip.
rnt itrooomws
case,
coast
the Caledonian Extension with which Ayrshire was to be accommo-
ee
dated, was about 1,700,0001. in thewhole. The Ayrshire portion of this
would be more expensive than that to Peebles. The expense would be
from 12,0001. to 14,0001. per mile. Be did not recollect the terms of
the prospectus of the Caledonian issued in 1844, which set forth that
the returns would be 8 per cent. He understood the capital stated
there was 1,800,0001., whereas the capital in the Bill, when it went
ence in the calculation of returns. If Dumfries was not named in
belßfre.s.e..aanrelrliatitmeodea_nrtue, was 2,100,0001. This made a considerable differ-
bpli
kbtyeefDe
before
toro. prospectus,ein rgyParliament
asitrh a
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alwaysaydladostti hheaa3nt,alarcalculated
ewere
e fairly fora considerable
as quite sure 5 per
with
.the
was a fair calculation. wrhllouielheW,
e
ll
Cale-
donian schemes ; also the distance
'a3fled*Pocloseoni d notin-
vestigation
Caledonian, compared BirminghamJunctionzwiforeadDainruanfnidriels7LGeorrinasddtonudAnnytirsioiehicctrl
Company,D umfricashire, examined—Said he
wasMre.hHaiormpeafiouhfntshtone
ce
u It had always been in
t the main object was
aGlasgow
rgrandu
route.t eb,
yb tohthecocumdmruticabetilloneve btehtwe
NithAlluee
unorth and the
Had both lines been granted
view to accommodate Dumfries,
eet
saouthd.irecHte
with the Caledonian, so as both to pay. tie could co-exist
last year he could not have advised the shareholders to proceed with
the works. With his knowledge of the e,ountry, he considerec if the
Dumfries Branch was formed along with the Caledonian Extension
that an abundant accommodation would be given—he would not
say a complete, still it would be ample. The portion that would not
be so well supplied wag the district between Dumfries and Cumnock,
which was a thinly-populated agricultural district. He agreed in the
esthaate that the pfbilts'Vpuld not exceed t% per cent. -
The witness was cross-examined by Mr. LIDDELL, on behalf of the,,
Duke of Buccleuch, the Marquis of Queensberry, and Lord Mansfield,
who petition against the Dumfries Branch ; also on behalf of the
Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle scheme, but no point of importance
was elicited.

Ayrshire 3fr. Smith, ofeLeang a nt, deposedtheA as y
was very good, and abounded in minerals, but after leaving New Corn-
nock, the valley of the Nith became very narrow and sterile, and
continued so till near to Dumfries, where it expanded and became
the hith.
rich. The population in the neighbourhood of Sanquhar and Thorn-
hillTheend,characterofvalley of
was very thin—both the agricultural and village population—
the route only supported one two-horse coach, He was well ac-
quainted with tile draining, and he thought the item of traffic under
this head, calculated by the Nithsdale Company, preposterous. He
did not believe that 12,810 tons of tiles would be taken from Cumnock
to Dumfries. He believed they could be made conveniently near
Dumfries. Besides, the draining could be as well carried out with
stones as by tiles. To allow for such a tile traffic, there would be
required 33 tile works to be started at Cumnock, which was not at
all necessary. To use the number of tiles estimated for, 2,391 acres
would require to be drained yearly, at an expense of 24,0001.
The cross-examination of the witness did not materially vary the
points elicited by his examination in chief, beyond the admission that
he did not know for a fact there was clay for tiles to be found in the
valley of the Nith, though, judging from the geological character of
the country, there must be. He had been told that clay was found
at Sanquhar.
To the CHAIRMAN—He thought that clay would be found also
between Thornhill and Algirth-bridge. The price of tiles at Cum-
nock was about 30s. a ton.
Re-examined—with the facilities of obtaining stones in the valley
of the Nith, he did not think that tiles would be carried at any great
length. He would, under such circumstances, prefer stone to tiles.
The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow, at twelve o'clock.

GROUP X.B.
This Committee did not meet to-day. Its sittings will be resumed
to-morrow at the usual hour.

GROUP XXVII,

This Committee re-assembled to-day at the usual hour ; Sir Charles
Lemon, chairman.
SOUTH MIDLAND.

The formal evidence as to estimates, &c., commenced the pro-
ceedings of this morning,
Mr. Brown, Secretary to the Company, was examined to prove the
amount of capital, and how allotted, &c.
This witness was subjected to a long cross-examination by Mr. Ser-
geant Wrangham, with the view of showing that the present capital
was not the capital proposed to be raised by the original scheme ; and
also the extent of shares subsequently allotted to the Directors of
the Midland Railway Company, the scrip being then at a premium of
seven. _

..........
Mr. Jay was examined upon the subject of traffic, and confirmed
the evidence already given on that point.
The evidence on traffic was co>•tinued, and two 'witnesses, Mr.
Alger, from Bedford, and an agent from a colliery in Leicestershire,
occupied the remainder of the day.
The Committee adjourned at four o'clock till to-morrow, when the
engineering evidence will be proceeded with.