The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-23 00:00:00

before the Committee of that House should lay facts before '
the House upon which they might arrive at a conclusion
on this subject, and he certainly thought that when the
proper time should come for taking such decision, evidence
of a valuable nature would be found to have been given. Ile
had been glad, he must say, to hear some of the opinions
which had been delivered by the Right Ilon. Gentleman. He
was not quite-prepared, at.the.sa.rag time, to accede to the
accuracy of the Right Hon. Gentleman's account of all the
evidence which he had brought under their notice that even-
ing, and particularly of that which had been given before the
Committee by the Governor of the Bank of Ireland, for that
gentleman had said he conceived that the Act of 1844 had
given greater stability to the Bank and greater confidence to
the public.—(Hear, hear.) He should rather, then, have
said that his evidence was favourable, and not unfavourable,
to the Act of 1844. The Right Hon. Gentleman also stated
that which certainly was not stated at the earlier periods of
these discussions, viz., that the commercial distress of 1847
was in no degree traceable to the Act of 1844. But that
was not the language that was held in the autumn of 1847,
when the commercial distress was attributed to that Act.
With respect to the report of the Committee of the House Of
Lords, it was certainly not in favour of the views which he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) entertained of the Act of 1844.
It said, however, and particularly in the evidence from
Glasgow, that speculation—railway speculation—was very
rite in Scotland, where failure overtook the commercial
houses there, and that those which did fail in that part of
the country were in re or less engaged in that speculation.
Mr. Gurney, too, stated most distinctly that, in his opinion,
the Act of'lBl4 had nothing to do with causing the com-
mercial distress in question—and that certainly it bad
nothing to do with scarcely any of those great failures
Which took place before the month of September. It was
some satisfaction to him, he must say. to find this confirma-
tion of the views he had himself expressed on former occa-
sions, and that, further than this, there had been evidence
given which bore out the observations he remembered he
bad himself made, as to the injurious tendency of the want
of precautionary measures on the part of the Bank of
England at an earlier period of the year, than that
at which they were ultimately adopted. With respect
to the time at which the Government's letter to the
Bank of England was issued, it could not be doubted that
the result of the week in which it was issued showed that
they were right in sending forth that letter. Mr. Gurney,
too, spoke favourably of the principle of the Bank Charter
Act, and anything he had said against it was only in conse-
quence of the pressure that took place under it. As re-
garded the operation of the Act of 1844 in a drain of gold,
all the witnesses before the Committee of the House of Lords
were agreed, and said that it was precisely that which,
even if that Act were not law, ought to take place. As to
the_ case of its checking an issue arising from a speculative
demand, if an issue of paper tended to produce speculation,
then a restriction of the issue must be beneficial. The Act
of 1844 was admitted to be useful in limiting the issues of
Country banks ; and if an issue of paper by country bankers
'would have the mischievous effect of aggravating prevalent
soils, similar issues, not based on gold, by the Bank of
n.gland, would have produced the same effect. The
given before the Lords' Committee showed the
nature of the crisis which took place in October last did
not arise from the want of circulation of bank notes, for
there were in the hands of the public 4,000,0001. more than
wants of the country required. The evidence of Mr.
Grey.„sli was almost conclusive on that point. Mr. Horsley
ralmer stated in his evidence that from the best opinion lie
could firm there were nearly 3,000,0001. in notes issued
merely for the maintenance of credit. and not for the pur-
rises of circulation. He thought the Hon. Member for Mon-
'rose had correctly represented that period, not as a Currency
crisis, but as a commercial crisis.—(Hear, hear.) The
question was not what was the amount of paper which
Ought to be substituted for gold, but the question was, what
Measures were necessary for supporting public credit, and
Preventing the recurrence of an extreme state ot panic and
alarm. Mr. Tooke was of opinion that nothing could be more
Mischievous than the issue of paper for the mere purpose
of supporting credit, and that the Bank never could do any-
thing more injurious than to issue merely for the support of
e°mmercial credit. The fact was that no fixed or certain
rule could be laid down for dealing with such crises or emer-
gencies, which were exceptions to all rules and all laws,
~,and must be dealt with accordingly.—(Hear, bear.)
zle could not see bow any fixed principle could be laid down
for dealing w,th such contingencies—extraordinary cases de-
Manded extraordinary remedies. Let them consider what
Would have been necessary to support credit in 1847. But,
in the first place, let them reflect on the sort of credit which
they would have been then called upon to support. He would
just read to the House a portion of the evidence of Mr. James
-Andrews Anderson. Mr. Anderson was asked—
, " What were the other causes to which you attribute the
%Vacuity ?—The great cause was the investment of a large
aznount of capital in railways, and the speculation concomi-
. taut with that investment. 1 mean the purchase and sale—
the gambling, in fact, in shares of railways.
" Was that speculation very rife in your part of Scotland?
--It was, among all classes.
Were those houses which have suspended payment during
• 1847 and 1848 generally engaged in railway speculations?—
Tes, almost in every case, more or less.
" Their accounts have, I suppose. a good deal come under
Your notice ?—Yes ; when I say railway speculations, I
should perhaps say speculations in shares generally; be-
cause there were speculations in other shares as well as
railway shares; but the railways were the great source of
speculation.
" Did you find that parties drawing bills took unusual
tams of obtaining money for the purpose of carrying on
railway speculation ?—Yes ; a considerable part of the loss
sustained by the bank with which I am connected arose
from that cause, from parties ostensibly drawing bills for
their business transactions, which turned out upon their
failure to have been drawn against railway speculations ;
they were represented to be business bills, but in reality
they were drawn in order to support speculations in railway
shares.
" Will you explain how that was done ?—A cotton manu-
facturer connected himself with a cotton twist dealer, and the
one drew bills upon the other, which we supposed were
out
for
the purchase of twist for his manufactory ; and it turned
to be nothing of the kind, but merely connected with specu-
lations in shares." •
Now this was.the description of credit which was prevalent
in 1846 and 1847—a fictitious credit. A drew upon 13
and B drew upon A. for no real transaction of any sort,
kind,
or description.—(Hear, hear.) A system of credit was thus
built up of the most mischievous description, The moment
the slightest check interposed in the facilities for obtain-
tug money, the whole fabric tumbled to the ground—
the bubble burst, and this was one specimen of a system of
credit not based upon gold. Neither the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Member for Stamford nor the Hon. Gentleman
the Member for North Warwickshire had stated what
amount of paper issue they would have based upon credit.
If they had done so he would know how to deal with them ;
but when they were told that the Act of 1844 had obstructed
a fair support to the commercial credit of the country,
lie liked to call the attention of the House to the sort
of credit which was prevalent at the period adverted
to, and which was manifested by the evidence of Mr.
Anderson. He objected to this proposal as vague and
indefinite—he objected to it because it pointed to the relaxa•
tion of the Bill of 1844, as the only possible remedy for
any commercial distress or discredit which might exist in
this country. If commercial distress and discredit took
place coincident with adverse foreign exchanges, he thought
the remedy of both Honourable Gentlemen (Mr. Herries and
Mr. Newdegate) inapplicable, according to their own admis-
sions, for a contraction of paper issue would be the necessary
consequence of adverse foreign exchanges. Again, adverting
to the opinions of Mr. Tooke, he might state that Mr. Tooke
was of opinion that a paper currency ought to be a mere sub-
stitute and representative of geld—not the representative of
any national debt or tax. If the paper currency was to have
any reference to bullion, and that it surely ought to have,
he would like to know under what circumstances it would
take place if gold was unattainable? If paper was to be
the substitute of gold, why should paper be obtainable when
gold was not to be had?
An Hox. Mr.ainEn But there were fourteen millions
locked up in the Bank.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was pre-
pared to defend the propriety of obliging the Bank of Eng-
land to limit its issue within a certain amount. But the
question after all came to this. Both Honourable Gentlemen
admitted that the paper issue ought to bear some relation to
the amount of gold in the coffers of the Bank. Then what
relation were they prepared to substitute for the present
one?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman opposite had al-
luded to the case of Hamburgh, in which he said paper
was issued as a substitute for gold. In Hamburgh
it was true they had a paper circulation, but all the paper
-that was out was represented by silver in the coffers of the
•bank. The bank gave a receipt for the silver, which was
equivalent to holding so much money. Now suppose a
• state of commercial discredit to occur in Hamburgh, and
that it was proposed that the bank should issue a receipt for
silver which it had not received, would not that be consi-
dered a very rotten system? But it was nearly the same
thing to issue Bank of England paper in this country
-which issue would not be based upon gold. With respect
to the recommendation of the Committee of the House of
Lords, to which the Right Honourable Gentleman had ad•
verted, it was true it recommended the removal of the re-
strictive clauses of the Act of 1844, and the restoring to the
Bank the powers of issue, and which would not tie it down
to the amount of gold actually in its coffers. Mr. Gurney
bad upon this point truly stated that the removal of such a
restriction would be a perfect abrogation of the Act of 1844,
and if that question was to be discussed, it was better that
the repeal of the Act of 1844 should be proposed to the
House. But before that was dose, they ought to bear in
mind what had occurred in 1840 and 1841. A Committee
sat upon that subject in those years, and all parties were
then agreed that the amount of issue ought not to be
left to the unfettered discretion of the Bank of England.
(Hear, hear.) Having had the honour of being the
chairman of the Committee then appointed, he must now
say that it would be most monstrous and inconsistent
to do that now which all rational men who had considered
the subject then objected to. The Honourable Mem-
ber for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) had then stated
the sound and just opinion upon the subject—that beyond the
maximum amount issued upon securities, the remaining
issue ought alone to take place upon gold. He could see
no advantage in giving Government the power of relaxation,
and .Mr. Fullerton was of the same opinion. It was con-
trary to what had been recommended by the Committee of
1841 to leave the full discretion in the Bank of England—it
was totally adverse to the Act of 1844, which, however, left
the recommendation of the Committee of 1841 untouched in
its provisions—namely, that in extraordinary cases, as in
1825 and 1847, there should be some department possessed
.of power to act according to the circumstances of the emer-
gency. Such, too, was the opinion entertained by Mr. Hus-
kisson. If ;those crises should again unfortunately occur
they must be dealt with according to their peculiar cir-
cumstances; and he believed in the words of the Committee
of the House of Commons, that it was far better it should
be left to the discretion of the Government to interfere
when it might think fit than to attempt by law to legislate
for a state of circumstances which neither were known
nor anticipated. Mr. Gurney, when asked what were the
circumstances which would justify the Government in inter-
fering, replied that it was impossible to state them before-
hand, and in that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
quite agreed. Mr. Gurney was clearly of opinion that this
power exists where it might and must be of a discretionary
character. The remedy which under one state of circum-
stances might be useful and availing, might, under another
position of affairs, be useless and unavailing. He had been
led away further than he ought to have been with this dis-
cussion, but as those topics had been broached, and as the
Right Hon. Gentleman urged the Government to give some
opinion upon them, he bad thus far trespassed on the at-
tention of the House. He had only to say, in conclusion,
that whenever this subject was brought forward with the
view of inquiring and coming to a practical conclusion, he
'would be ready and willing to exptain his views; but he
thought the present discussion would not lead to any prac-
tical conclusion, and therefore, as he remained unchanged in
his former views, he must move the previous question.
The amendment was then put.
Three or four Hon. Members rose simultaneously to ad-
dress the House. The Speaker, having given precedence to
Mr. Spooner, left the House for a few minutes, but Mr.
Spooner having been so absorbed with the arrangement of his
voluminous documents, advanced to the table, and amidst a
roar of laughter address_ d the vacant chair thus :—" Mr.
Speaker, I rise for the purpose." The laughter of the House

called the attention of the Hon. Gentleman to the ans.—
the Right Hon. Gentleman, and he sat down. theenSpeaker resumed his seat,
Mr. SPOONER said he was of opinion, notwithstanding
what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated, that t
round
he
Right lion. Member for Stamford bad laid a strong g
for the adoption of his motion. The Chancellor of tha
Exchequer said that the Government would interfere
to suspend the operation of the Act of 1844 when a
state of things similar to that which existed in 1847
should again arise; but why should the country be ex-
posed to an amount of suffering such
Was
psi
the then
Right endured
before a remedy could be applied?Ho-
nourable Gentleman aware that the depreciation of pro-
perty between 1846 and 1847 extended as far as 250,000,000/. ?
The Hon. Gentleman then read several extracts from the
evidence of Mr. J. Loyd, to show that that gentleman
thought that in some circumstances a relaxation of the Bill
which lie himself had framed should take place. He objected
to any system which the Government could deal with as they
thought fit. This f.rreat commercial country ought to regulate
its own monetary system, so that it should regulate itself, and
not produce such fluctuations as had taken place under the
law of 1844. But he would refer to the history of the ques-
tion further back than the period at Which the Right Hon.
and he would
Gentleman comteenced. Tole was an anxious auditor of thsay
e
debates on this subject in 1810 and 18 1 1 ;
that in all the great principles laid down by Mr. Horner he
concurred. The Hon. Gentleman then reviewed the history
of this subject, and deprecated the resumption of cash pay-
ments on the ancient standard. Previously to 1816 they had
a double standard of silver and gold, Previously the debter might
pay in the cheaper metal ; but, by the alterations in the law,
a more stringent system was adopted, the effect of which
had been shown in the subsequent commercial distress of the
country. After some observations on the effect of the Act of
1819, in necessarily causing fluctuation, the Hon. Member
said, that his Hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth might
ask him, as he had before, " What is a pound ?"—(' Hear,
and a laugh,) He ( Mr. Spooner) knew that a pound was a
piece of gold of a certain value arid fineness, stamped in a
certain way ; but the question was, what ought to be a pound ?
—(Hear, hear.) Io 1819 the inquiry ought to have been,
what was a pound in relation to the debt of the country, i
i-
n
relation to mortgages, and to the position of debtor and cred
tear; and it would not do now, after the countryma had been
ruined, to turn round and, in a cold phlegmatic nner,
ask " What is a pound?" It was in vain to attempt any al-
leviation of the distress so long as they relied upon any fluc-
tuating basis, any demand for foreign corn upon anything
that should call upon the Bank of England to find gold for
its notes that were in eirculation.
Jt. was then com-
menced their onward course toward bringing the theyl of
1819 into operation ; and seeing the exciaatages against them,
they put out their paper merely to go the LB4lO round again
of prosperity and adversity. If they were regutateel by the
exchanges, what were they to do next year? OW Any
man anticipate anything less than an immense impost of
corn? How was it to be paid for? Borne said by our ma-
nufactures ; but bad not the bullion gone out before, and
would it not go out again? To be brought back, it was
said ; but at what a sacrifice. He pointed out the effect
that the drain of gold would have upon the iabotarers in
England, and in preventing this country rendering ,a,seist-
ance to Ireland. Unless the currency was extended, is ,
heavy responsibility would rest upon the Government. He
was asked, would he have an unlimited issue of paper, and
unllmited speculation ? His idea of convertibility was
Ift hat
a note was convertible into what a man wanted.
i
were a legal tender, if it would pay all taxes and all
debts, and purchase what any man required, that was
convertibility, not into gold, but into all the practical neces-
sities and purposes of life. He implored the Noble
Lord not to be led away by the vaain philosophy of
tr am theme days,
,
but, like Mr. Pitt in 1797, to rise above the l
and adapt his proceedings to the circumstance@ of the
times. Let the gold go abroad to bring in food, hut,
at the same time, let there be a circulating medium
representing all the property of the country, and then
our labourers would find that we were not only able to
feed them, but to dispense a large and liberal measure of re-
lief to Ireland, and turn that discontented population into a
peaceful and loyal people, and meanwhile a stock of manu-
factures would be accumulating, which would enable us to
get back our gold again. He trusted that Parliament would
not separate while Members had nothing to tell their
mea-
con-
stituents but that when famine pressed, proposals for
sures of relief were met with the previous question—that the
Ministers were hesitating and doubting—that they had no
opinions—and that at the approach of the storm they dared
not pledge themselves to any course of conduct that might
avert •it. If that went forth among the people despondency
would be the consequence, and there was 140 knowir g what
might be the result. There was a remedy; let them apply
it. Let them call forth the energy of the people and set the
credit of the nation free.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, I was quite prepared to hear my Hon.
Friend claim credit for entire consistency on the subject of
the currency, and I, for one, am prepared to concede his
claims. But I confess that I was not prepared to bear from
him that he was a disciple of Mr. Horner. My Hon. Friend
says that he disagreed with Mr. Horner in the practical con-
clusion he came to that cash payments should be resumed in
the year 18:9, but that in the reasons and arguments which
he used he entirely concurred. Why, Sir, if there be any
communication between those who are living and those who
are departed, Mr. Horner must now be shuddering in his
grave at being represented by the Hon. Gentleman—
(Laughter)—by an Hon. Gentleman who proposesd that
but the
circulating medium shall be rehter ) presented
so that if yo, not by gu
have now
01, by
the a ebtof the country—(Laug
an annual expenditure of 50,000,0001.—and if you increase
that expenditure to 60,000,000/., although you may thinyou
k
your resources do not justify tat i, yet
are to issue paper money, not convertible into gold, on no
other foundation than your own necessities ; and thus you
are to have a constant interest in incurring debt, from which
of
the ready means of relief is to be, an issue, in proportion,
paper, which is to be always received into the Exchequer in
liquidation of debts due to the State.—(Hear, hear.) So that
you are to have a direct interest in indefinitely increasing the
debt, and yourcurrency is to be in proportion to your debt.—
( Hear, hear.) But when my Hon. Friend goes further and
proposes to convert the whole property of the country into
circulating medium, and yet says he is the representative of
Mr. Horner, I own that he does excite my surprise.
Mr. SPOONER explained that his proposition was limited
to the amount of Governirent expenditure, for which the
whole property of the country was liable.
Sir R. PEEL—My Hon. Friend by no means mitigates my
alarm by his explanation—(A laugh)—for I think I remem-
ber to have heard him say something about property afford-
ing a fair and just foundation for the currency, and I own
that does not diminish or alter my opinion as to the effect
which the establishment of his system would have upon the
currency in its relation with foreign countries.—( Hear.) But
when my Hon. Friend speaks of representing the opinions of
Mr. Horner, I think he has forgotten what really passed in
1810. The seventh resolution, moved by Mr. Horner, pro-
vided that no contract undertaken for the payment of money
in pounds sterling can be legally discharged,' except in gold
waseln heresu m sainnyproeufne
rdesnee sterling.t
o
coin of a certain specified weight; and that the promissory
tnotes of the Bank of England were a stipulation to pay cer•
art
ydoes t
inmoitit=tratuhgahtt:lll;Le
or the navy estimates, or the miscellaneous estimates, or the
amounts that might be voted for the ordinary expenditure of
the country.— (A laugh.) On the contrary, all is referred to
the pound sterling.—(Hear.) And the resolutions of Mr.
Homer went on to state that, when Parliament suspended
cash payments there was no intention to alter the value of
those promissory notes of the Bank of England—that they
borrowed money from the public creditor, telling him that
on the return of peace he should be paid in gold. Indeed,
nothing otherwise was ever intended, and all those who
lent money at that time were entitled to be paid in
gold on the faith of that promise. Now, does the lion. Gen-
tleman, who says he agrees in the argument of Mr.
The re-
Homer
—does he agree to that ?—(Cheers and laughter. )
solutions of Mr. Horner went on to say that the state of the
foreign exchanges must he taken into account in regulating
the currency. Yet my Hon. Friend blamed the report of the
Committee of the House of Lords because it referred to the
state of the exchanges in connexion with the question of the
currency. Now, why did not my Hon. Friend in 1810,
warn the country of the dangers upon which he has spoken
to-night ?—( Cheers.) He says that he concurred in the
principles of Mr. Horner's resolution—then why was he
silent on the clangers which he says were to be apprehended
from them ?
Mr. SPOONER,--I was not in the House in 1810.
Sir R. PEEL—My Hon. Friend says he was not in the
House in 1810, but then he argues that it was possible in
1819 to have estimated the depression of the funds. I fully
admit that that would have been pos,ible—(Hea)—and we
should then have paid some ss. or 7s. in the pound less.
I am not saying that it would have been just, but that it was
possible for Parliament to have done this. Parliament might
have said, we have made a promise, it is true, but we cannot
fulfil it. That, however, would have been veryho adheres,
.
(Hear, hear.) But I will tell my Hon. Friend, w
he says, to the principles of Mr. Horner, that :although a man
who owes a pound and pays only 15s. will gain something,
yet all that will not alter the currency as regarded all future
transactions. Alter the paper as you will, practically the
same state of things will arise—whether the note be worth
12s. or a pound, there will be the same obligation to keep
your promise ; and the effect will be the same as to the pres-
sure upon commerce at particular times and the difficulty of
obtaining money.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, my Hon. Friend
says he is in a small minority in this House in his views
on this question. But I very much doubt whether, of those
out of doors who are anxious for an alteration in the Act
of 1844, the great majority are not with my Honourable
Friend. I think that those persons care very little about
those minor questions involved in the opposition to that
Act, and that their main hope is of an unlimited paper
opinions with currency. I think they look upon those who wish for a
restrictedo currency as public enemies, and those who are
funlimited paper as public benefactors. There was one
witness examined, Mr. Salt, a chosen champion of the •
of Birmingham, and gentleman who expressed°ll
opi-
nions
ing that
man the Chane
a boldness and a confidence in their accuracy
Honourable Friend of
ascribed ided our attention—a boldness even exceed-
to him by the Right Honourable Gentle-
( laugh)—butthe -Exchequer. It is true that my
heseems almost ashamed of his witness
ammong the rest I aske47llf examined at some length, and
" Will you state whetlane'r—l correctly understood you as
saying that that nationparliepea
per should be issued ad libitum
till the period when prices were remunerative, and every
industrious
found full employment?—
Certainly,
had been achieved you would fix your
When
able-bodied
object man
that
prices were standard at that point ?—Yes.
nonfdpaper paper?—Yes;
?—Yes ;
" Till you had
achieved that object,till
remu-
nerative, and all able-bodied industrious men had employ.
.the present
that we
went, we should have an unlimited issue
thesy s t oe nml
wr eea shoanv
et hsaot
fla r s adye -ptahrat
et d
from
what is, that,
is
t
basis; we have had such extraordinary fluctuations,ht in the
therefore,l
cannot now tell where we are. It is necessary,
take observations ; but the great principle is, that the labourer to
should have his wages, the manufacturer his profit, and that
i
the creditor should have his due; that the labourer should
have his value for his labour, as well as the wealthy man, the
creditor the value for his money.
" Do I correctly state your views, when I state that you
would propose that national paper should bme etai sued without
limit, or without any reference to any
li ad of
value, until that period should have arrived when the prices
generally should give to every able-bodied industrious man
full employment?—You correctly understand me."
I then afterwards asked the witness :
" Is there not an association in Birmingham on the subject
of the currency?—Yes.
"Are the views which you have expressed the views of
that association ? —Yes.
" Are you a member of it ?—Yes.
"Though some individuals may differ from the views
which you have expressed, are they not the general views of
the association ? —They are.
"Did you ever hear any one dissent from them think
not; at any rate, those who have dissented have ceased to
dissent.
" But did you ever find anybody successfully contend
against those views?—No; I never heard anybody attempt
it."
—(Laughter.) I wonder much if my Hon. Friend thinks that
Mr. Salt is a disciple of Mr. Horner.—(Laughter.) My
Hon. Friend says that he is in a smen minority in this
Ilouse; but among all the great writers and talkers about
the currency, depend upon it ithat he is sympathised with in

rspect to the motion now befbre its, . _
( Mr. Herries) invites the House to enter into a pledge with
respect to what its proceedings will be next Parliament;
but, although the promoters of disaffection and of disloyalty
to the present system throughout the country derive little
sati-faction from his former motion, they will not feel better
satisfied with the present. He does not ask the House to
alter the law ; he merely asks it to take the subject into its
serious consideration next session, and serious, no doubt, it
will be ; hut what advantage can be derived from adopting
such a pledge. Now, I address myself to those who disap-
prove of my views upon the subject of the currency. 1
think the credit of the House does not stand high as regards
the adoption of great practical reforms. We have shown
rather a taste fordiscussion—(Laughter)—than for practical
legislation. We are now arrived at the 22d of August, not
having made much progress with practical measures, not, in
fact, having fulfilled our indispensable engagements, and yet
we are asked to draw a bill at six months on the next
session. And under what circumstances was the House
asked to give the pledge? 1 was one of those that my
Right Honourable Friend referred to as having retired
from active service. 1 attended, however, last Tuesday, in
order to be present at the discussion. My Right Honourable
Friend said that there was an intense anxiety throughout
the country on the subject of that motion. Why last Tues-
day I found thin v-five Members present at the time my
Right Hon. Friend should have brought on his motion. To-
night I returned, and there were only forty-two Members
present, when an Hon. Member moved that the House be
counted. Is it likely that any recommendation of a House
that shows so little of that intense anxiety which my Right
lion. Friend referred to, will have much weight with the
country? My Right Hon. Friend, indeed, indulges in figu-
wounded
rative language, and says, that the House, "
snake, drags its slow length along " At all events, let us not
give ourselves the air of the boa constrictor, and end the pa.
rallel by enacting the needless Alexandrine. The Right
Hon. Baronet proceeded to say that he was unwilling to in-
cur the charge of whiffling discussion. When the proper time
came he should maintain to the utmost of his power the policy
of preserving the restrictive clauses of the Act of 1844. He
believed that these clauses prevented the country from
having in April last superadded to commercial distress the
danger of political convulsion. Without these clauses he
believed the Bank would have persevered from April to
June, as they had done from January to April, in extending
their securities at the time the gold was leaving their
coffers. At the proper moment he would take up the Lords'
report and put aside the Commons' report, with
the which he
agreed. He would be prepared to impeach Lords' re-
port, and do all he could to show that the most impolitic
v
tahr rea ng
Bankem e:ft,
Et
1111
ga
it
acould
hpho sas idb
il
syo
rbeet i
omadenar tp ood
wu ler boef relaxing
the restrictive clause of the Bank Charter under the con-
ditions proposed. Ile would endeavour to show that it
would be infinitely safer for the countr to reserve the
edxiaecfreizeetiodnaerypepnowtehreitrn
rtehsep
ohnasni
bdisl i
toyf the
to Government,priainent. t oT be
ee
Right Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to specify the
conditions under which paper money could be circulated in
the three kingdoms without any deposit being required of
gold. 33,000,0001. in notes cold be issuedthe etary
ege.gencies of the country more was required, and the ar-
troansgeecinnura hnttewiras
ctilonavt
ernotitbeislimtyigihtt
wstasill
rbeequisisrueedd,thbautt
ainn order
to
amount in gold should he deposited. A paper currency
of
48,t 00,000 was available on a deposit of 15,000,000 of gold.
It had been said that the 15,94000 was a dead weight,
and that it was lying idle. It was no Atleh thing ; it formed
the guarantee for the convertibility ot the o,oooas w,OOO
ellof
paper money. The necessity of precaution w
shown by the facts which came out in connexion with
risk
the
great failure of 18,47. These facts showed the great
which existed of credit being *hosed, and he thought it
could be easily shown that it vees noting to the restrictive
eiauges in the Bank Charter, which antiled the directors to
mitigate theft stress by acting with the libore*y which they
had done. was impossible to overrate the ii 41 of
preserving thecenesertibilitydthebank note. The experieoao
of all countries had shown that the nearer they approached
the English practice, the its Vas the vAriation in the rate of
interest, and of discount, and the ieeti OA amount of annual
discredit, He thought the greeteit P.4ailwitty that could
befal the Wintry would be to entertain the 4(404 Oar, in
times of pressure, the tit te way to mitigate the calamity was
to issue more paper money, Depend upon it that such a
course would prove a mere *poet9onement of the evil. Then
with respect to the Lords' report, excOoned the Right Hon.
Gentleman, I rejoice that it has been eslfreeted to, because
it gives me the opportunity. of warning the people Against
being misled by the doctrine which it promulgates. Jdo
not deny the ability with which it was drawn up. Ido not
know who wrote it; but whoever is tromihe writer, it is
everyevi
dent
that be is anxious to briog pnently forward
defect ha the Act of 1844. It is not friendly to that Act. I
do not tatty it is unfairly hostile or advessei but there are
great omissions made. It is said that the Acts of ).!;44 and
1845 contained many provisions that were judiciousiy ealese,
lated to secure the coursertibility of the bank-note. Objec-
tions are indicated, but they era pot specified. An alteration
indeed is euggested in the ratio that ought to exist between
the issue and the deposit of silver ; but I thinks that very
little would be gained by an alteration. The chief recoin-
mendation is the one which goes to confer a discretionary
power on the Bank to relax, under certain contingencies,
the restrictive clauses. I assert that to grant such a powee
r
will be in the face of all experiene,e, Yo only passed ter
Bill of 1844 passed as the Right Hon. Gentleman truly re-
marked, with such. general concurrence, because you were line
pressed with this conviction, that the directors had possessed
a discretionary power, and had not wisely exercised It in
time of pressure ; and in 1825, 1837, and 1839 the Bank, hav-
ing a complete discretionary power, the result of three years'
inquiry was that the discretionary power so possessed could
not be safely left where it was, and you imposed the restraint
embodied in towerresent law. The report proposes that the
discretionary should be conferred under the condition
that it shall only be exercised when the exchanges are fa•
vourable to this country. If the discretionary power be right
and proper to be given, the restriction as to the exchanges is
a very unwise one. By agreeing to the recommendation you
make it next to impassible for the Government to act again
as it did in October last, because the answer to Parliament
would be, that the Bank directors were the parties entrusted
with the exercise of the discretion. In fact, the adoption of
such a change would practically be to augment the restric-
tion which already exists. The exercise of the power
which the Government put forth in October is no impedi-
ment whatever of the Act of 1844. `That Aoethc that
governedsatciiutsnosogmtffiejnuecsiettrti
feyso dido f
by principles, and so long as they exist the rule is
obeyed; but when a state of things arises which defies
principles, ordinary. rules cannot apply. Mr. Huskisson
stated that it was impossible to frame laws to meet every
case; and when I introduced the Bill of 1844 I made the
same admission. The same thing happens in the operations
of nature. You take precautions against all ordinary dan-
gers, but dangers will arise which could not have been
foreseen, and against which prudence could take no precau-
tion. An officer on a railway, in charge of Smith O'Brien,
found a train which he desired to proceed to Dublin. The
man in charge of it told him he could not comply, as he
produced
uehenoiedusdesorearowdpreodi
reuest riedsl , tilanoilmednaagadeewspnomtrpsyayttnrhno,coircamfvLe
threatened
etsais.tmutooehintfeseretmtidoocihffimeketeaepc;teaeoteeucrshspeiofeanti
nnhddi whichindemnity
nia
mfi
thytehwsedaai otdsiSs
satisfied
octhebsees)an'ry. But although I say this, Ido mean to pass
under
ednl aedwre
casemssimilar
n itolhaf
erauthorisingmaeciartec;:
Circumstanceseiabr syl impossible ct
bew 0
rdeemedlworld.
It is explosions
impossible
opfParliament
:it; 1 laomterhneet
p a
sI
explosionsln
can be entirely prevented, and when they do ,
thenlon
eetvairly.
the strong hand must be taken to rectify and mitigate
and
danics
m commercialay
pre-
vent them ; and as they are not governed by principle, it is
much better not to foresee them or to attempt to provide for
them,spo nre-
sponsible b
lbeu t
parties,to lea leave h theo:e dmatter t ins
ttoh the hand a
convince
thatotheir interference was necessary. The report is
di England.rhighlyeotorsn n mwhplloim thinkwe netraer complimentary
ehxetyaomditenhseeedr directorsdeserve
efiotr. e
the
ofthitnhke Bankaa the
wide discretion,
oya n
oyo.lnumber
ub merb we r o andof
pleased. d thath c 3
te
ht
ebonue
tgfhorw entrusted
ethe
might Committee
o mw mi
have
with
vt
both Houses gave evidence which showed that the
ee eactaoll'
they had entitled themselves to the utmost credit. It was
mightcfoo four,
r,p
tors they pleased, but they only called five. We called but
The Lords have declared that they place the greatest possible
confidence in the discretion and prudence of those gentlemen ;
but when I look at their evidence—when I refer to the
testimony given by Mr. Morris, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Cotton.
and M
r.Norman, I find them all declaring and advising
that
the Bank Act of 1844 should not be relaxed. It •is true that
Mr. Horsley Palmer dissented, and that he expressed him-
self in favour of a relaxing power ; but when asked
whether that power should be entrusted to those
for whom restrictions were intended, he said, that
to give the power to the Bank of England would
be a violation of the law, as it would be absurd to restrict
with one hand and to relax with the other. The Bank says
that it is a commercial community, and that, as it is subject
to pressure, it is necessary for it to have the autho-
rity of the law to enable it to resist that pressure. I
hope you will continue the restrictions they ask you for—
that you will not confound the issue of paper money with
the capital of the country, and that
B you will not believe
that it is in the power of theßank of England to
diminish or raise the rate of interest to the extent tatad some
people suppose. I hope you will bear in mind that is
carried on with capital, and not with paper money, except so
far as paper is the representative of gold, and that the carry-
ing on trade with credit means only that you trade, not with
other persons' credit, but on their capital.—(Hear.') I trust
you will recollect that the greatest advantages which a coun-
try can have is a fixity in the value of its money, and a sethcuat
-
rity for its convertibility ; and that,
unless you have
fixity, you will not have a security for that convertibility.
Remember, also, that if you have not those advantages, there
is not any class in this great community which will not suffer. '
All concerned in commerce and manufactures must suffer,
but those chiefly will suffer who depend for daily subsistence
upon the wages of labour.—(Hear, hear.)Depend
upon it, if the currency is to be reduced
on in in val
the value ue, there will
not be at first any corresponding reducti of
the articles to be purchased, but the two shillings and three
shillings a day of the labourer will become gradually
upon it, of less
value than heretofore.--(Hear, hear.)Depend
there is not one class in the whole community who has a
more fixed and permanent interest in the arrangements
which give to paper money as much as possible the character
cf a metallic currency than the labouring portion of the
population.—(Hear, hear.) I hope that when you approach
the consideration of this important subject, you will bear in
mind those great principles, and that you will hot think
pressure in time of panic is necessarily an evil. That
pressure, early and salutary—that pressure compelled by
law may be complained of by some, but it is the only
remedy against increased disasters, and the only guarantee
for securing the convertibility of your paper currency.—
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Mr. MUNTZ was strongly of opinion that the Right Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down would, before long,
rescind his declarations of that night, and confess, as in the
case of the corn-laws, that his former principles were not
sound and ought not
Ri ht Hon. to be adhered to.—(Laughter.) The
g Gentleman had alluded to the opinions of Mr.
Homer ; but surely the
country was not new to be bound by
the very improper transactions
contemplated when the of that day. It was never
first Bank Act was framed that
restrictions were to last for ever ; but since that period the
circumstances of the country had
and the working and industrious undergonel a great change,
taxation and a doubled national tLtasea, who had increased
to the money interests. Mr. Hometr t(7l pay, were sacrificed
ap-
peared to have taken a very wise viewefor his death
said, "In no case attempt to set questionsof things, for he
right without taking into account and ful of currency
the new circumstances which have ariyse appreciating
n,. and the
vast and new obligations contracted
payments were abolished in 1817, will 819ce cash
inflict great
misery on the people." He did not quarrel the Right
with
Hon. Baronet as to the measure of 1844, for
he
approved
of it at the time as a necessary part of the of
And here he might be excused for reminding the HouseB.
that he had proposed the principle of that Bill four
before the Right Hon. baronet proposed it. ( yearsear
hear.) In the year 1840 he was examined before a Select
Committee of the House, and on being asked what descrip-
tion of measure he would propose, he replied that there a
no difficulty in the matter, ae the easy remedy would

my nignt

of 1844 do btii that tipon
the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether such a measure
would cause pressure in the London and country markets,
and he replied in the affirmative, as he believed the effect
of it would be to place the country in a position
of restriction. With regard to the Bill of 1819, he
remained of the same opinion, that it would inflict great
injustice until prices were reduced to the continental level.
The principle of the Bill of 1819 was not half carried out.
The price of land was scarcely touched, but the time was
coming when he would have continued prices and continen-
tal importations, and when the landed interests would be
placed in the same position as they were in fifty years
ago. Let them stick to the Bills of 1819 and 1844, if they
wished--let them be carried out to the letter of the law—
but depend upon it they would blow themselves up, as
everything of unsound principle did.—(llear, hear.) If
it
a
just and proper alteration were made in the currency
would confer great benefit upon the industry of the country,
as it would give an advantage in the foreign markets with
respect to nominal prices. The fact was, that taxes would
be taken off industry and placed on property. Conveiti-
bility was the great point by which a paper circulation was
regulated, and convertibility was nothing more than the be-
lief that we could do a thing which we could not do. It was
said that the Bill of 1844 had not aggravated the distress of
the last few years, but if it had not aggravated the distress,
how did it happen that its Provisions were relaxed ? It
must have surely had some connexion with the distress, for
as soon as it was relaxed relief was afforded, and the distress
was comparatively banished.—( Hear, hear.) His opinion
was that the Bill of 1844 greatly exaggerated the distress,
because it made the Bank withhold accommodation, and it
induced persons who had money to retain it in the hope of
getting a higher price for it. The fact was the money had
got into the wrong hands, and it would have remained there,
to the great detriment of public trade and commerce, if the
Act had not been relaxed and the money released.—(
It was distressing to have a law which required touching
every now and then to make it act properly, and it was dis-
graceful to the country and the Government. The country,
however, entertained the opinion that the Government had
acted very indiscreetly in interfering with a law of which
Idly evidently knew so very little. That interference had
caused him considerable regret, as he was sure it would en-
tail much misery on the country.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME confessed that the explanation of the Right
Hon. Baronet was exceedingly unintelligible. The motion
of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stamford did
not require any allusion to the Act of 1819. The statement
of his Right Hon. Friend was quite clear, and the question
the House had to consider was, whether the Committee had
arrived at a correct conclusion. Twenty witnesses had given
evidence against the Acts of 1819 and 1844, and
ten of the number were for modifying those Acts. He
maintained that the Select Committee of the House of Com-
mons had arrived at a verdict altogether irreconcilable with
the evidence.—(Hear. hear.) The report of the Lords'
Committee, on the contrary, he believed to be a fair and honest
one, and his only objection to it was, that its recommenda-
tions were not sufficiently intelligible. The principle of the
Right Honourable Gentleman's Bill of 1844 bad not worked
well, neither could it be expected to do so, when the whole
commercial affairs of this kingdom were to be left to the
discretion of a single man. Why, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer might be a fool—("Hear, hear," and laugh-
ter)---and the First Lord of the Treasury might be a
fool—(" Hear, hear," and laughter)—and was it to be
endured that the property of millions of persons was to
be jeopardised by the ignorance or prejudice of one or two
men.—(Hear, hear.) He was of opinion that great credit
was due to the Right Honourable Gentleman the Member
for Stamford, who had brought forward this measure,
and he hoped the fact would go forth to the country. He
considered this a question of the greatest importance. Let
them look at its effects in Scotland. Never was there such
a piece of unnecessary legislation as this with regard to their
country. There had been no loss during the last fifty or
sixty years ; the people were content ; there was not one pe-
tition for change, No man could read the evidence taken
with respect to Scotland without seeing the evils produced
by this law..—(Hear.) A great deal of the evil arose from
the erroneous opinion held by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
Robert Peel) and the Chancellor of the Exchequer (the lat.
ter of whom had been talking to-night of unlimited circula-
tion, limited currency, and all sorts of exploded ideas),
OAP country bankers could issue as much as they
liked, and deluge the country with paper. That
notion was utterly untrue, He denied that there had been
any material pressure in the agricultural districts, or in
g given by them to the
Scotland and Ireland i but it Was Cluite obvious that the Bill
anyou l d asnositstsaanycethbaetinßill laid cad the distress,
orlfi,
tl
r8041)40
Ipi rs
.e v eHn tee dw
but it infinitely augmented it, the people being afraid to part
with their money lest they should not get more. He agreed
with the motion of the Rigbt Hon, Gentleman (Mr, Her.
ries) that it was right that the attention of the House should
be called to it as early as possible next session, He did not
what might take place in the course of six months, but the
Bill of 1444 must be reconsidered, and he believed that the
however, wish to bind the House, as nobody could know
Right Hon. Baronet would eventually be of that opinion.
Mr. HERRIES was willing to withdraw his motion, after
what had been stated in this debate, and particularly by the
Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir R. Peel), from which it was dear
the House could not allow this subject to remain long with-
out making an attempt to come to the merits of the subect.
That be thought was the opinion of a majority of the Hjuse,
and he was aware that the 22d of August was not the time to
propose to go into the whole merits of the question. The
Right Hon. Baronet had said that in the next session he
should be prepared to maintain the Act of 1844 in all its in-
tegrity; and he (Mr. Herries) also would pledge himself to
attempt to obtain an alteration in an Act which has brought
all the evils from which we have been suffering on the coun-
try, and fulfilled the worst expectations of unfortunate re-
sults which its opponents entertained.—(Hear, hear.) The
relaxation of the Government was a condemnation of
the Bill itself, as a means of relieving the pressure of panic.
But what created the panic ?—that was the question.
Why, the apprehension' created by the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
The evidence was full of it. Mr. Gurney had stated that in
his opinion if the Bill of 1844 had not paaaed—if there had
been no division of the departments of the Bank, the alarm
of 1847 would not have occurred, and the pressure would
have passed over without difficulty. The Bill, then, not only
aggravated the distress when it came, but it caused the panic.
—(Cheers.) He condemned the report as an insiduous ore,
the concluding paragraph suggesting the idea that it was
founded on the evidence. But he could show that it was not
so founded—that it was contrary to the evidence—and that
was his motive for bringing forward the question. The Go-
vernment had met it by moving the previous question—they
did not venture to deny that the subject must be recon-
sidered early next session. That being the case his views in
proposing the motion were fully answered; and if no one
more competent took up the subjt ct, lie intended at an early
period next session to draw the attention of the House to a
matter of such vital importance.—(Cheers.)
The motion was then negatived without a division.
CHARITABLE LEGACIES.
The Legacies to Charitable Institutions Bill, which stood
for a second reading, was postponed until next session by
Mr. Raphael, who had introduced the measure.
CONTAGION AMONG SHEEP.
The Sheep, &c., Contagious Disorders Prevention Bill was
read a third time and passed.
IRISH COURT OF CHANCERY.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE moved the second reading of the
Taxing Masters Court of Chancery (Ireland) Bill. There
were at the present time 1,764 bills of costs to be taxed in
arrears, and the object of the Bill was, to increase the effi-
ciency of that department. There was at present one Master
with a salary of 1,0001., and one assistant with a salary of
400/. a year. It was proposed in the Bill to have three
Masters, one at 1,0001., and two others at 800/., involving
an increased expenditure of 1,2001. a year, which would be
money well spent in increasing the efficiency of that Court.
Mr. GOUL BURN opposed the Bill and called ateention
to the disposition there was in Ireland to increase legal
offices. If " arrears" were to constitute a sufficient reason
for increased offices, reasons would be as plentiful as black-
berries. He denied, however, that there ought to be any
arrears. There were formerly two Taxing Masters,: and it
was found that they never worked more than three hours
a day, and one of the Masters, Mr. Clancy, had said more
than that would kill any body with hard work. Upon that
one officer had been abolished, and the work was not really
too much.
Mr. NAPIER supported the Bill. If there was no change
in the present system it would be practically a denial of

? U

that
cccaslwi 7.0

justi.
An HoN. GINTLEMAN here moved that the House be
counted, and
Only thirty Members being present the House adjourned
at Five Minutes to Two o'Clock.

RAILWAY INTELLIGENCE.
SOUTH-EASTERN.
[The following reports have been omitted for want of room.]
The balf-yearly meeting of this companY hursda
Bridge House Hotel, London-bridge, on T , y
M. Pritchard, the deputy chairman, presiding.
was held
Mr. T.
at the
The CHAIRMAN said that, owing to the absence of Mr.
M•Gregor, occasioned by severe illness, principally brought
on by his exertions in the serviee of the company, the share•
holders would join with him in wishing that gentleman a
speeedy recovery, that he might again fill the chair which he
(Mr. Pritchard) then occupied.—(Cheers) The honourable
gentleman then called upon
Mr. HIRBERT (the Secretary). to read the notice con-
vening the meeting, and the following report:—
The accounts of the South Eastern Railway, for the half-
year
ending the 31st of July, 1848, show that the receipts of
the company have amounted, during that period, to
219,3651. ss. 6d. ; and that the working expenses have been
67,102/. I Is. sd. ; the rent of the Greenwich Railway, and of
proprietors
the Whitstable Railway, 21,5724 10s.; the rates and Govern -
ment duty, 17,9701. 6s. ; making the expenditure on revenue
account, 106,6451. 7s. sd.
The balance carried to account of profit and loss is
112,719/. 18s. Id.; and that account shows an amount at
the disposal of the proprietors of 108,8361. 14s. 10d.
On reference to the statement of receipts and expendi-
ture—, has been
will oonbscearpviettalthaacctotuhnet
sum
mrinogf t7hle3,hl4a6lfiyela3rs,. the,d
received on account of calls; and during the same period
the sum of 457,1411. ss. Id. has been expended on construe-
omne ac-
lyasure,
construc-
tion account, and 176,7501• for mortgage bonds and loan
Nseont
notes paid off.
It will be in the recollection of the proprietors, tthooatthe
sen-
sible
directors, in their last report, stated their unwillingness to
ei oirtn
of being
the company's Kent line.
eo urgeuTnht
oefffoortrwh the
directorsahred theseverity
,ei
ayonwi
no
of
rtr
ekh calls;es
ioeowfp! this
igreatnngingthose
pfet ne
will,d, b
state
affairs, considering that to pay interest on so large a sum of
unproductive capital as the No. 3 and No. 4 shares represent
is prejudicial to the interests of the company,have resolved on
finishing the works with as much rapidity as is consistent
with economy and durability.
The directors have to announce to the proprietors that
they have ample means for completing the whole of the
works of the South-Eastern Railway Company.
The agreement made with the London, Brighton, and South
Coast Railway Company, alluded to in the last report, has
been sealed by both companies, and the tolls usually
Intro-
duced into the accounts are now excluded.
In consequence of the near completion of the Nortb Kent
Railway, the directors have considered it necessary to -pre-
pare for a large accession of traffic, and have in consequence
given notice to the London, Brightoa, and South Coast
-I f the division of the Lond •
Railway or on-bridge station. The
necessary alterations required on the part of this company
will cost a sum not exceeding 40,000/. The directors feel
confident that no objection will be offered to the carrying
out of this arrangement on the part of the directors of the
London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway; but, on the
contrary. expect from them the same co-operation as they
have shown in the recent negotiation ; and your directors
will on all occasions meet them in the same spirit to carry
out any measures of economy they e..
may contemplate.
The directors have received an intimation from the en-
gineer-in-chief of the Great Northern R.l fF ai way o ranee,
that the 26th inst. would probably be fixed for the opening
of that line, and, in consequence of this intimation, your
directors lost no time in completing an arrangement with the
South-Eastern and Continental Steam Packet Company, to
place steam-ships on the station between Dover and Calais.
From the opening of the Great Northern Railway of France
great advantages are exected ; as from an understanding
your directors came to at raris with the directors of that lin%