The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-09 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY
_MORNING, JUNE 9, 1846.

duce(' last session into the House of Commons, where it was the amounts received by the various departments of expen-
considered ribt nineteen days, but eighty-four days. Under ' diture, from all sources except Parliamentary grants or issues
such circumstances, it was almost impassible to get Members from the Exchequer in the year ending the sth day of
of Parliament to sit so long unless they were-compelled to do I January, 1846.--Agreed to.
so. It had then been introducedinto this House, in the:present Mr. CHRISTIE moved for a return of the age, date of
session of Parliament. They were now in the month of June ' appointment, and salary of Patrick Shaw, Esq., Advocate, Pre-
considering- a Bid which had been passed last year by the senter of signatures in Exchequer in Scotland, and of the
House of Commons. Another company came into the field amount of allowance to an assistant paid by him out of his
this year, and because they had a branch which competed for a salary. Statement of the duties of presenter of signatures, show-
short distance with the London and York Railway, the whole ing how they differ from those of the agent for revising drafts
question was opened up, and the sitting of the Committee was of charters, proposed to be appointed by a Bill now before
therefore the more prolonged. Be thought it but right, that the House, "to alter arid amend the Practice in Scotland
where a branch competed with a project for a main line, the with regard to Crown Charters and Receipts f. om Chancery,"
inquiry should only extend to that branch. the 4th section of which Bill provides that the revising agent
Lord REDESDALE was of opinion that something should shall be a writer of the signet ; and the 26th section, that the
be done to alter the present system of opposition in Corn- office and duties of presenter of signatures shall cease from the
mittees. passing of the Bill, but that Mr. Shaw shill continue to draw
The Marquis of CLANRICAIIDE conceived that the mo- his salary during his life-time."—Agreed to.
Lion could net be entertained by the House. The better plan Mr. T. S. DUNCOAIBE said, that he took the liberty at
would he either to move that the standing order be suspended, the close of the debate on Friday evening last, of moving that
or that the report be brought up on Thursday next. But to the Poor Removal Bill should be taken into the consideration
this latter course there was this difficulty, that the Committee of the House that evening, with the view of its taking prcee-
were supposed to sit de die in diem till the report was made. dente of any other notice of motion. The public had
This was only a partial report, sand therefore it was incompe- a right to this course, and they had aisn a right to expect
tent for the House to entertain it • and as the better p:an, that the House would not goon with the Irish Coercion Bill until
therefore, he would suggest that the Noble Lord should move the Poor Removal Bill had been disposed of and discussed-
that the standing order be suspended. by that House. In consequence of the notice given by
A conversation, in which many Noble Lords joined, then en- the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, on
sued, which was interrupted by the occasion of the Irish Coercion Bill having been carried
The LORD CHANCELLOR, who suggested that there on the first reading by a majority of that House, such a
were, several Members of the House of Commons, who had course was expected, because on that occasion the Right Hon.
been waiting, for along time, but Baronet was asked when he intended to go on with the Poor
Lord CAMPBELL said he was disposed to show all possi. Removal Bill, and the course of action then laid down by the
ble courtesy to those Hon. Members, but he had a very few Right Honourable Baronet was, that after the first
words to add to the debate, and he could not help observing, reading of the Irish Coercion Bill, they should proceed
that it appeared as if the Committee wished to throw off their with the Corn and Customs, some few votes of supply,
duty by a side wind. and that he should alsogo on to take the sense of the House' on
After some further discussion, leave was given for the the sugar duties before proceeding with the second reading of
Committee to sit again on Thursday, at four o'clock. the Coercion Bill. They had disposed of the corn and customs
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition, complaining of the —they had had votes of supply, but they had not had the
difficulty of obtaining sites for the session churches in Scotland, discussion on the Poor Removal Bill, and it was now pro-
and praying that some measures might be adopted to remove posed to take the second reading of the Irish Coercion
the evil. The Noble Lord also presented a petition, numer- Bill before they made any progress in the Poor Removal Bill.
ously signed, praying that the messure then under discussion, The House was called on in the first instance to take the first
with reference to the corn duties, might speedily pass reading of the Irish Coercion Bill, and not from any admire-
into a law. tion of its provisions, but as a compliment to the House of
LORD HARDINGE AND LORD GOUGH'S Lords, they were called on to agree to that first reading at
ANNUITY BILLS. once. That arrangement was made, and in justice to many
On the motion of the Earl of RIPON, the further con- gentlemen on that side of the House, he would say
sideration of these Bills was postponed until to-morrow (this that under that impression many had voted fur the
day) se'nniebt. first reading who intended to oppose it on the second.
Earl GREY presented a petition from the parish of But now, be contended that the House was taken by surprise
Wokingham, which, he said, referred to a matter of some im- by the Government supporting and adopting the motion of his
portance. The petition stated, that the parish extended over Hon. Friend the Member for Malton (Mr. E. Denison).
a space of 8,500 acres, anti contained a population of 3,500 They were called upon the other night to enter Committee
inhabitants. The parish was under the jurisdiction of the Dean pro forma, in order that the Government and his Hon. Friend
of Salisbury. The tithes had been commuted to 1,698/. might introduce amendments into his Bill, which was to be
There were thirty acres of glebe land, which produced 601. per altogether remodelled ; but he wanted to know; because he held
annum. With these advantages, the Rev. Thomas Morris re- that the instruction agreed to on Friday night did not convey
ceived the small stipend of 1501. per annum, including what the sense of the House, as the House was taken by surprise ; and
he received from Queen Anne's bounty, and only 401. of the he now objected to take the Irish Coercion Bill, because it
amount arose from tithes. Some years since he appointed an was incumbent upon them to take the Poor Removal Bill
assistant-curate at a salary of 801., leaving himself the yearly this evening, in order to discharge the instruction passed the
amount of 70/. Since that time, the assistant-curate being other night. Even the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell)
unable to continue at the salary of 801., received an increase, had not pledged himself to support it, but in addition
which diminished the sum to 401. The petition to the objections he (Mr. Duncembe) had stated against it,
went en to state that in consequence of the smallness of that he maintained that the instructions would altogether render
income the Rev. S. Morris had been compelled to accept the the Bill a new one as it would have to be remodelled. He had
appointment of master of some alms-houses, for which he re- a right to inquire whether the House was taken
ceived a salary of 1001. per annum. The duties of that ap- by surprise or not with respect to the instructions
pointment made great calls on his time, and he had, therefore, and with that view he wished again to have the sense of the
less leisure to attend to his parochial duties. The petition House upon it, and if the Committee of the House was averse
also complained that in 1843 the church was declared to be in to it, that it might be discharged, and that the Government
so bad a state as to need either extensive repairs or rebuilding. might not be put to the trouble of proceeding with it. There
Application was made to the Dean of Salisbury, with regard never was a Bill which required more remodelling than the
to the means of repairing or rebuilding the church. He Poor Removal Bill, and it was a disgrace to the Poor-
(Earl Grey) would not trouble them with the pain'ul cor- law Commissioners to have laid such a Bill on the table of the
respondence that bad taken place on the subject. He would House, because it would add to the difficulties in connexion with
only state, as the petition went on to say, that the parishioners the question of settlement. He should, therefore, conclude by
were obliged to repair the church; and yet, from the impossi- moving that the order of the day for the second reading of the
bility of coming to an arrangement with the rector, or lessee Poor Removal Bill be read in preference to the second
of the tithes, they were obliged to spend 7001. on an inefficient reading of the Irish Coercion Bill.
repair of the Church, while they were prepared to expend a much Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
larger sum on rebuilding it. The petitioners stated that the The SPEAKER having put the question,
condition of the church arose from the want of sufficient Sir J. GRAHAM said he, for one, did not object to the
ecclesiastical visitation, while at the same time it admitted of amendment of the Hon. Gentleman, but his approval of it
some neglect on the part of the parish officer. The yearly must be qualified by the understanding that he should
revenue available to the parish was 1,7001., and yet, with that only support it for the purpose of postponing the
large sum at its disposal there was an insufficient spiritual Pour Removal Bill. He would tell the House what
accommodation for the parish, which in one part contained a had occrred since Friday evening last. In obedience to
rapidly rising population, who gained their subsistence by what he considered the opinion of the majority of the House ;
precarious means, and necessarily felt the want of spiritual on Saturday morning he gave directions to prepare clauses in
attendance, which encouraged vice and immorality to a great accordance with those sentiments those clauses had
extent. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners had more power been prepared, but he had not had time to consider them.
than any ether body to do something on this subject, and it was If it were the pleasure of the House, he should be prepared on
absolutely necessary that something should be done. They Wednesday or Friday next to give notice that he should
might find the means of doing so without any alteration of the introduce the clauses to which allusion had been
law, but if they would not an Act of Parliament would be already made. But the Honourable Gentleman
necessary. These were the reasons why he wished to recom- was not satisfied with the decision of Friday night,
mend the petition to the notice of their Lordships. last, and that the course proposed to be taken by his Right
The Bishop of SALISBURY wished to thank his Noble Hon. Friend at the head of the Government, with reference to
Friend for the courtesy he had shown for suffering the presenta- the second reading of the measure, the discussion on
tion of the petition, and he would also express his views which had been fixed for that evening. What
of the firmness he had shown in thus abstaining from a cor- had taken place with regard to the Poor Re-
respondence which would necessarily lead to a long correspond- moval Bill was in exact conformity, with the
once. He admitted the state of the parish of Wokingham, arrangements that had been previously made. If the Hon.
hut it was only one of a number of parishes which were in a Member for Finsbury should think that this matter would
similar condition. The means of specially providing for those receive a fairer consideration in a fuller House, he was certainly
geievances had been furnished under the late Act 3 and 4 Viet., at liberty to give notice of his intention to move that the subject
chap. 113, which stated that tithes being separate estates en- be reconsidered.
joyed by the corporation of soels, the power of disposing of them Mr. DUNCOMBE—I gave notice on Friday.
should be vested in the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, always Sir J. GRAHAM had every reason to believe that the deci-
suhject to any existing lease. He thought, therefore, this sion of the House that evening would be in conformity to the
matter should be referred solely to them, as it was in their pro- decision to which they had come on Friday night. It was cer-
vines. *nle
_de ':cable that they should arrive at some distill('

Ordered to lie on the table.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and their
Lordships adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock till Thurs-
day next.

sin!), mos, tesirable .iat
understanding on this point.
Mr. G. BAN KES said he entirely concurred with the view
which had been taken by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, with
regard to the division of the othsr night—that it was a divi-
sion which took the House entirely by surprise.—(Hear.)
The surprise on that side of the House was complete, when
they learned that the government voted in support of the mea-
sure, which they had every reason to suppose they would vote
in opposition to—( Hear, hear)—because it was the very same
measure which had been completely given up by the Secretary
of the Home-office, and because he stated that he found it uni-
versally distasteful to the agricultural district—( Hear. hear)—
and therefore it was entirely by surprise that that motion
was so disposed of; for he might state that of those Hon.
Members who sat on the same side of the House with
him, on that occasion left the matter wholly and
solely in the hands of the Government, because they consi-
dered themselves acting with safety in doing so ; though it was
true they had not been universally in the habit of trusting
them, and on the only occasion on which they unfortunately
reposed their confidence in them, a measure was passed
which was adverse to the wishes of their constituents.
He was therefore prepared to say that before they adopted the
instruction in question, that instruction ought to be carried by
a majority of that House, and before that would be done they
most have another division—(Hear, hear)—and he knew no
occasion on which they were more likely to have a fuller at-
tendance, or a more dispassionate discussion, than they would
have that evening. He hoped, therefore, that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Finsbury would persevere in his motion, and now take a
division ; and whatever that division might be, they would ac-
knowledge that it was a decision of a majority of that House.—
( Hear, hear.) He must remind his Hon. Friends who sat upon
the Treasury bench, that it was understood that this measure
should be sent pari passe to the other House of Parliament,
with the other important Bill that was now before it. And
with regard to the discussion interposing any further delay in
the question of the Coercion Bill, he believed that the opinion
was universal throughout the country, that the Government
had no idea whatever of carrying- that Bill--( Hear, hear)—that
they had resigned the hope, if they had not given up the wish
of carrying it, and therefore he had no scruple whatever
in interposing any further delay to ' the discussion,
of the Coercion Bill. With regard to the discussion the other
night, he thought that it was impracticable to carry it out un-
less the present poor-law unions were remodelled. Under these
circumstances, he hoped that they would now have an oppor-
tunity of taking a vote without surprise, in a full House of
Parliament, on this important question.
Sir R. PEEL said that the great majority of those who
were then present must have come there that day with the full
expectation that the subject for discussion was the second read-
ing of the Bill for the better Protection of Life and Property
in Ireland—( Hear, hear)—and when the opportunities for dis-
cussion were so precious it was of importance that no time
should be lost in consequence of any misunderstanding. He
had been most desirous, during the course of the present ses-
sion, to fulfil any assurance he might have given. He always
felt certain that the second reading of that Bill was fixed under
the impression that on the motion that the Speaker do leave
the chair, there should be an opportunity, he would not say
for the discussion of any pi inciple in the Bill, but for Members
to state generally what were their opinions with respect to it.
He would not admit that he ever said that this measure should
proceed, pari passe, with the other Bill that was now before
the other House of Parliament. He had always
stated that he should be prepared to give a full op-
portunity for discussion on the question. He bad
also stated that he considered it to be his duty to
proceed with the Bill for the better protection of life and
property in Ireland. He thought it would be perfectly open to
any Hon. Gent. to object to the decision of the other night,
and to give notice of his intention to move that the subject
should be discussed again ; but surely that subject might be
discussed with greater advantage if due notice of it were given
—( Hear, hear)—than bringing forward a discussion upon it
now, when the majority of the House had come there that
evening under the impression that the subject for discussion
was the second reading of the Bill for the better Protection of
Life and Property in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He did hope,
then, that the lion. Gent. would not drag the House into a
futile discussion upon this most important discussion; but
allow them to proceed with that which had been set down for
the business of the evening.
Mr. E VELYN DENI S ON said he had kept perfect good faith
with the House with regard to this most important question ;
and on Saturday, pursuant to appointment, he had an inter-
view with the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of. State
for the Home Department, and settled the clauses of the Bill.
He might go so far as to say that the clauses had been brought
up, and the amended Bill printed. Would it not be better,
then, to postpone the discussion, in order that Hon. Members
might have an opportunity of considering it.
Mr. WAKLEY could not understand hew the House could
have been taken by surprise by the course proposed by
the Right Hon. Baronet, for notice was given previous to the
recess that the discussion on the second reading of the Bill
should be proceeded with on Friday. The question now pro-
posed to be discussed was one of a most important character,
for it affected the condition of thousands of the poorer classes
of the country, and he hoped it would not be discussed or
treated in the light of a party discussion.—( Hear, hear.) It
was a subject which deserved the greatest attention of the House,
and for good or evil must effect the condition of the poor for
many years to come... For himself he deeply considered the
question, but he confessed, after the motion of his Hon. Col-
league, it required still more of his consideration. His Hon.
Colleague proposed that relief should be given in unions, as
well as in parishes, which would involve the continuance of the
Poor-law Commissioners ; and he must confess, after what bad
transpired in a Committee with which he himself was con-
nected, that that House was not in a condition fur-
, the': to legislate upon that branch of the subject.—(Hear,
hear.) He trusted, therefore, that the House would on no
consideration legislate hastily on this question but would take
into its consideration everything bearing on the question.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that he could not unite agree
with the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and with the
Gentleman who brought the question before the House. He
considered it fair to the Right Hon. Gentleman who intro-
duced the motion to the Government, that the House of Com-
mons should enable the Right Hon. Gentleman to place the
Bill before the House in a definite shape. It would have been
better had the Bill been called the Union Settlement Bill, as
it would have brought the Bill more fully before the House.
He could not see the advantage of going into any discussion
on the Bill on the present occasion, for it seemed to him that
it would be far better that they should allow the Right Hon.
Gentleman to place the Bill (having fully considered the
clauses) in that shape in which he thought the House could
best consider it. The Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, although
he supported the Bill, and seemed to support the motion of his
intend n d to h'
the
Hon. Friend, bad said what he (Lord John Russell) thought
was, in itself, a reason for taking such a course. He said that
the unions were very large, too large for the purposes required,
and until theysaw the a
Hon.mendm
Baronetents to thedid
not Bill,
i
they know thatßight
of,
t propose some modification of the size the unions ? They did
not know what were the details be proposed ; and as the Hon.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 8.
The SrEAICER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
MORAYSHIRE RAILWAY BILL.
. .

This Bill was read a third time and passsed.
STAINES AND RICHMOND RAILWAY BILL.
Colonel WOOD moved the order of the day for the ad-
journed debate on minion for the re-commitment of this Bill,
and took the opportunity of remarking upon the difficulty which
had been thrown in the way of the Company by the length-
ened delay of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, in giving
their negative to the measure. He also complained that the
Committee who had been appointed to inquire into the
merits of the Bill had net received sufficient evidence.

Mr. SOT HERON said it was not his intention to vote in
any way on the matter before the House. In consequence of
the vacillating conduct of the Board of Woods and
Forests, the Committee of which be was a mem-
ber, had considered themselves justified in making
a special report on the Bill, which, as they thought, would
have the effect of delaying further proceedings, at least for the
present session. Whatever decision the House might come to,
he was of opinion that in no case should any public body, to
which a Bill might be referred for its assent, be allowed to
offer any opinion, or throw any obstacle in the way of the pro-
gress of the Bill at any time after the second reading of the
Bill.

Mr. H. BERKELEY observed that when the debate was
adjourned, it was with the express understanding that the
opinion of the Woods and Forests on the Bill was to be given.
The Hon. Member was proceeding with his observations,
when he was interrupted by
Mr. HUME, who spoke to order, and said that as a mem-
ber of the Woods and Forests was present, the required in-
formation could be obtained.
Sir G. CLERK said that proposals had been made by the
company to make drains for the town of Richmond, and other-
wise to improve it. These proposals had met with the appro-
bation of the Board of Woods and Forests, and they had in
consequence withdrawn their opposition► to the line on the part
of the Crown property.
Mr. VILLIERS observed that the delay had been occa-
sioned by the Commissioners, and that it was owing entirely
to the Woods and Forests. The present motion was not
intended to be an appeal from the Committee, and he should
support the motion.
A desultory conversation then took place, in which Mr. F.
Scott, Lord U. Somerset, Mr. Bailey, Mr. Wakley, and Col.
Peel joined, and the gallery was ordered to be cleared.

On our re-admission theenumbers were—
For the re-commitment of the Bill ... 61
Against it
Majority against the re-commitment —7
This Bill was consequently lost.
THIRD READINGS.

The following Bills were read a third time and passed :
Caledonian and Dumbartonshire Junction Railway ; Cambridge
and Oxford Railway ; Dunbiane, Doune, and Callander Rail-
way ; East and West Yorkshire Junction Railway ; Glasgow.
Strathaven, and Lesmahagyw Direct Railway ; Kil-
marnock arid Troon Railway ; Liverpool Improvement ;
London and Suuth Wes.ern Railway Acts Amendment;
Slamannan Railway (Bathgate and, Jawcraig Branches);
Thames Raven Dock and Railway (N9_2.); Wilsontown,
Moruingside, and Coltness Railway (Bathgate Branch) : Wil-
sontown, Morningside, and Coltness Railway (Caledonian
Junction) ; Wilsontown, Morningside,
.and Coltness Railway
(Improvement and Branches).
CULLEN'S ESTATE BILL.
This Bill was read a second time and passed.
REPORTS.
The following reports were brought up, the amendments
and alterations agreed to, and the Bills ordered to be en-
grossed : --Clitheroe Junction Railway ; Earl- of Blesinton's
Estate BIB; London and Birmingham Railway (Newport Pag-
nell Branch ); North Gravesend Railway ; Oxford, Worcester,
and Wolverhampton Railway ; Sheffield General Cemetery ;
Shropshire Union Railways and Canal (Newton to Crewe,
with Branches) ; South-Eastern Railway (Maidstone to
Strood, Lear Rochester); South-Eastern Railway (Canterbury
to Dora.); South Wales Railway; South Yorkshire Coal
Railway and Canal.
WEXFORD, WAKEFIELD, AND VALENTIA
RAILWAY.
On the motion of Mr. SPOONER this Bill was at ithdrawn.
ST. MARTIN'S BURIAL GROUND, BIRMINGHAM.
Mr. SPOONER moved that it be an instruction to the
Committees on the London and Birmingham Railway (Birm-
ingham Extension) Bill, the Birmingham, Wolverhampton,
and Stoor Valley Railway (Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and
Dudley lines) Bill, and the Shrewsbury and Birmingham
Railway Bill, that they do entertain the petition of relatives of
persons deceased interred in St. Martin's Burial-ground,
Birmingham, notwithstanding such petition was not presented
three clear days before the day appointed for the first meeting
of tho C-Inmittees. •

Mr. ORMSBY GORE said that a petition to the contrary
effect of that stated by the Honourable Member for Birming-
ham had been presented by the trustees, and if the House
sanctioned the motion he must move that this petition be also
referred to the Committee.

Mr. W. IL COLLETT seconded the motion of the Hon.
Member for Shropshire.

After .a few words, which did not reach the gallery, from
Lord G.' SOMERSET,

--ir. SCOTT said 'that he could hhivaieersdinblyobueunfndrerstand the
reasonha; af for r
any the
rate,application
iif
i t w oe
were
ethe r a
nHt
eo
dr.;
cd ca 11Boipromnintge
House to do him equal justice, and allow his petition to be
heard before the Committee.
Mr. SPOONER could not consent to withdraw his motion.
The prelent was a case of a novel and an important character,
and should be decided at once. He hoped and trusted that it
would be allowed to undergo the investigation of a Committee.
As be was not inclined to oppose the wishes of the Houses, he
should withdraw his motion.
Motion withdrawn accordingly.
KILMARNOCK AND TROON RAILWAY.
This Bill, on the motion of Dr. BOWRING, was read a
third time and passed.
Messengers from the Lords brought in several Bills.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
in
00e;
oganli
.it
B, bully:, l
ifom,o otrohttpiahotnegt
loi
ifevoeShui
noticeS l
bre. Jt
h.
divided
GRAHAM,ihdeeds
inutled it was agreei that
the House at its rising, should adjourn till Wednesday.
being removed from
NOTICES OF MOTION.
Dr. BOW RIN G
being
into the Exchequer,
in which they
se going intoCommitteemove,
two, o
all other purposes, from
limited to the exemption of poor persons from the liability of
egthßpreeinmisnlirdotoetßidobe.n;
, but
fora return of the amounts not paid
departments of revenue,
tleducted for costs of collection, and
the gross amounts received by all the
separately stated. Also, a return of

Gentleman asked only until Wednesdey to settle these details,
lie thought that such an interval should not be denied him.
Mr. BRIGHT said, that in the course of his observations,
the Hon. Member fol. Finsbury had said, that the clerk of a
union at, or near Stafford, had refused to allow a rate payer of
the district to inspect the returns, or to give acme information
which he sought for. He (Mr. Bright) had received a letter
which stated that the assertion was not correct, as far as the union
clerk was concerned. He would read a portion of that letter
to the House. It stated that the clerk had et all times, in the
performance of the duties of his office, given every opportunity
for inquiry ; but that, with regard to the refusal stated by the
Hon. Member for Finsbury, no such applicationi was ever made
to him, nor did he know until lately
that
was asserted that
stay information had been denied. i'he letter als3 stated that
the returns of the 9th of February, 1816, were made, and that they comerehendedevery particular care
iecfully
was necessary to mention. He wt hit
(Mr. Bright) was sure that
there was no union clerk in the countrymore disposed to do
his duty, and he had no doubt that the Hon Member for Fins-
bury had laboured under some mistake, or had received erro-
neous information from other parties.
Lord HARRY VANE trusted that the House would accede
to the suggestion of the Noble Lord the Memberfor London.
His opinions were not quite similar to those entertained by the
Noble Lord, but he was anxious that the question should be
discussed at some future time, when the House
possession of the circumstances. He thought the Hoaussmewould
adopt a most inconvenient course if they entered then
nn
recommendation of what they had passed so recently
as Friday
last. Such a course would create as muchsur •
country as that expressed by the Hon. Genptleismean in the
at
their adoption of the instructions of the Hon. Member for
it al ton.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK considered that the subject ought
to be referred to a Select Committee, and expressed his in-
tention of proposing the adoption of that course in the event of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury moving the rejection of the in-
structions.
Mr. DUNCOMBE considered it would be better for the
House to go into Committee pro formd, in order that they
might have an opportunity of moving the rejection of the in-
structions.
Sir ROBERT PEEL thought the House had better see
the Bill before they came to any decision respecting it.—
(Hear.) It was an important Bill, and every one would ac-
quiesce in the necessity of giving the utmost attention to it.
It would be best to print the Bill, and afterwards to discuss
the subject of union settlements.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Right Hon. Baronet the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department informed him, in an
early stage of the Bill, that it was his intention to apply it to
the poor of Ireland. He trusted that nothing would be intro-
duced into it to prevent this, arid therefore he wished to know
if he intended to carry out that principle in the Bill as
amended?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM intended that all Ireland should be
included in the provisions of the Bill.
Mr. BORTHWICK should object to the House going into
Committee pro fosenci, in order to embody in the Bill the in-
structions of the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said he should take the sense of the
House on his motion, as he considered that the House ought
not to be put to the trouble of going into Committee until the
nature of the Bill had been determined in a full House.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said the instructions were agreed
to, after great discussion, on Friday evening. The clauses
were prepared, and he believed the Hon. Member for Melton
had seen them. As he stated he had not yet had an opportunity
of reading them, but in the course of two hours he had no
doubt he should be enabled to look over them, so that the House
might go into Committee pro
.forni, and as the House would
not sit to-morrow, they might be able to discuss it on Wednes-
day ; but, unfortunately, the business before the House would
not admit of that. However, on Thursday he hoped they might
enter into a discussion of its merits.
Colonel WOOD had given notice that to-day he should
hope to confine the attention of the House to one simple clause,
viz., that a person who had been resident in a parish should
not be liable to removal out of it.
Mr. DUNCOMBE understood the Hon. Member to mean
that the two projects should be included in one Bill, in order
that they might have the pleasure of separating them after-
wards.— ( Cheers. )
The amendment was withdrawn.
ENLISTMENT OF SOLDIERS.
Captain L A YARD asked the Right Hon. the Secretary at
War, whether there was any truth in the statement that had ap-
peared in the Times newspaper, with respect to the limitation
of the period of enlistment, as connected with clause 8?
Mr. S. HERBERT said the Gallant Officer was correct in
his surmises as to clause 8, and that an alteration had taken
place with respect to the period of enlistment of soldiers.
THE GAUGE QUESTION.
Mr. C. WOOD wished to ask the chief Minister of the
Crown, what opinion the Government had formed with respect
to the gauges?
Sir R. PEEL thought it was necessary that the opinion of
the Government on that important subject (the gauge) should
he made known as speedily as possible, because the progress of
different railway Bills would no doubt be impeded until the
decision of the Government was made public. He believed
that the proceeds of the Commission appointed to inquire into
the subject of the broad and narrow gauges, and their opinion
'lad been reported in the shape of a minute, which had been
laid on the table. The best and most satisfactory course which
he could pursue would be to move that those minutes be
nrinted, so that by to-morrow morning every Member in that
House might have a copy in his hand.
CASE OF SIR CHARLES TAYLOR.
Mr. COLLETT said the Bth of June had now arrived, and
the time had elapsed when he was to have received an answer
from the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State, with
respect to copies of affidavits which had been submitted to him
in the case of Sir Charles Taylor. He called upon the Right
Hon. Gentleman to submit to the House the result of his
investigation of those affidavits, and he also wished him to
state whether Sir Charles Taylcr was still in the commission of
the peace.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM replied that since the conduct of
Sir Charles Taylor had been brought under the attention of
the House, he had made the most minute inquiry with respect
to the truths of the charges brought against him. The result
of his investigation of the first charge was that the Hen.
Member had relied upon the statement of a convicted felon,
and that his statement was incorrect. He did not believe the
truth of the statement. Since then the Hon. Member had
proposed a new case—had brought new charges against Sir
Charles Taylor, on the affidavits of different persons, and had
furnished him with those affidavits. He had carefully con-
sidered those affidavits, and was of opinion that it was un-
necessary to take any further proceedings with respect to tie
matter. With respect to the last question of the Hon. Gen-
tleman, he did not hesitate to tell him that Sir Charles Taylor
did hold her Majesty's commission.
Mr. P. SCROPE was aware that several charges had been
made against Sir Charles Taylor, who had been put to con-
siderable inconvenience and anxiety with respect to the pub-
lication of them in the papers. Sir Charles Taylor had
sought his advice upon the subject, and had asked him whether
he could take proceedings in a court of law, or in that House,
against the lion. Member for Athlone. His advice was, that
he should not take any proceedings in the matter, as the truth
would become apparent, and his character would be cleared.
If such charges were brought against one magistrate, they
might be brought against all.
Mr. COLLETT said that he still most conscientiously be-
lieved that the allegations were true.—(Order, order.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE felt satisfied that the charges which
were made against Sir Charles Taylor were utterly groundless,
and he did hope that the House would take some means of pro-
tecting an individual who was unable to defend himself from
the attacks of any Hon. Member in that House.
Mr. WAKLEY observed, that there was only one course
open to the House to adopt, and that was for the appointment
of a Committee. After the statement of the Hon. Member,
that he fully believed that the allegations contained in the de-
positions were true, and after the statement of the Right
Hon. Baronet, that he did not intend to institute any further
inquiry, he was satisfied that no case more admitted or re-
quired a complete inquiry than the present.
Mr. BANKES objected to any further inquiry, as he consi-
dered the appointment of a Committee would be an imputation
on the veracity of the House, and be holding them up to pub-
lic scandal.
Mr. HUME thought it was much to the honour of any
Member, when he heard of any act of injustice having been
done by a magistrate, to interfere and protect the victim of
magisterial ignorance or tyranny.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he was unacquainted
with Sir Charles Taylor, but if blame attached to any one, he
thought it attached to him. He slid consider that there should
be some course adopted which would prevent Members coming
forward and making such accusations as those made against
Sir Chas. Taylor, when they were based upon wholly ground-
k'ss fabrications; and that would be the only proper method of
meeting out justice upon such occasions. And now, with re-
.nect to the legality of these affidavits—they were perfectly so,
but they were nullities, and no civil action would lie upon
them, nor could a civil action be brought to recover damages
against any person who had made them falsely. He did trust
hat the Hon. Gentleman would come forward himself when he
had inquired a little more into the case, and he would
apologise.
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK—The Hon. Member for
Montrose expressed his surpiise that his lion. Friend below
(Mr. Bankes) should have shown so much warmth upon
this occasion, but he should have felt much surprise if his
Hon. Friend had not shown warmth, for it would be as much
as to say that he was wanting in all the feelings which
charac-
terise an English gentleman—that he was wanting in those
feelings of generosity which betray a noble spirit—had he been
! enabled to have heard those charges brought against an Hon.
Gentleman, 80 years of age, who had been a magistrate more
than half a cesturk. What, were they to grant a Committee
of Inquiry into that Hon. Gentleman's conduct 1 He trusted
not. If they were to grant a Committee, it should be one to
inquire whether an Hon. Member had been the instrument of
a foul, a false, a scandalous charge against an Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE said, it appeared to him that
they were making much to do about nothing. The Hon.
Member for Athlone, they were all aware, upon these subjects
was a monomaniac. The House were quite aware that if they
sent down into the county towns they would get a lot of fellows
to swear anything, and Sir Charles Taylor had made himself
obnoxious to the people by his strict adherence to the laws.
indeed, he conside,ed the Hon. Member owed an apology for
having brought forward the charge. —( Hear, hear. )
Mr. BRIGHT said, in the extreme desire which the House
manifested to do justice to Sir Charles Taylor, they quite for-
got to do justice to the Member for Athlone. That Hon.
Gentleman had given the question very minute inquiry, and he
had found a confirmation of his former statements. He (Mr.
Bright) had himself seen the woman who had purchased the
game, and he had seen her husband also ; and there was no-
thing in her appearance, or in her manner, or in her conduct,
which would alter his belief in her statements. But he would
draw their attention to a fact which had lately appeared in a
Worcester journal, that a gamekeeper had laid a snare in which
he placed dead game in a field, through which there was a path
to a church, in order that some person might be found to
take it ; and could they doubt that if any person had done
so he would be punished for it? And if the Hon. Gentleman
was a monomaniac, he wished more persons would adopt his
views with reference to the game-laws.—(A laugh from Lord
George Bentinck. )
Mr. COLLETT regretted to intrude himself upon the
House, but he could not sit quietly by when such ees ere anima
aeversions had been made on a Member of that -House. He
had inquired into the character of Sir Charles Taylor, and he
found there was not a more honourable raan.—(Hear, hear. )
He did consider that the Hon. Member ought either to sub-
stantiate his charges or to apologise.—The subject was then
allowed to drop.
COERCION BILL (IRELAND).
Mr.POULETT SCROPE said, he would postpone the reso-
lutions which he had upon the paper—resolutions respecting
remedial measures which should certainly accompany such a
measure as that at present proposed for Ireland.
Sir WILLIAM SOMER VILLE said, he had to move that
this Bill (the Irish Coercion Bill) be read this day six months.
lie had hoped that her Majesty's Government would have
abandoned this measure, and he was sorry that they hail
shown a perseverance with it worthy of a better cause. Ile
contended that the Government had not made use of all the
powers which were vested in them by the law of the land, to put
down the disturbed state of Ireland. They had sent a Special
Commission to Westmeath, but they had taken care to send
down before band to know what evidence they could csoleledctthtoe
support convictions. Now, he asked, they
pursued
nbelieves!
same course with regard to Limerick and C
that they had not; if they had, he withdrew the charge.—
( Hear, hear.) The people of Ireland resisted the law, as it did
not press fairly upon them; they had a rooted dislike for

, English law, and how were they to remove that feeling?
Why, not by coercive acts, but by kind and paternal govern-
, ment. Since the union, a period when Ireland was
not governed by a Coercion Bill, was the exception.
' He begged the House not to be led away by their feelings in
the discussion of this question. He was very much struck
with what fell from the Honourable Member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire on a former occasion. In a'luding to the
murder of the late Lord Norbury, he depicted te,e shtick which
his feelings sustained by that occurrence. They all knew,
however, how that crime was perpetrated; hut, stringent as
the Rill was, it would be ineffective to prevent the occurrence
of such horrible assassinations. They had for a calms:. of cen-
turies endeavoured to put the whole population of Ireland nut
of the pale of the law, and they could not expeet, after such
treatment, they could have a peaceable and contented body of
people. The people of Scotland gave a proof of the inefficacy
of keeping the inhabitants of a country in subjection when no
care was taken to show them that they were the objects of the
law's protection. Archbishop Sharpe, of 'Glasgow, fell a vic-
tim to the mob in that city, when the people were influenced
by similar exasperating circumstances as the people of Ireland.
To use the words of Mr. Burke, the Governrneet " were fret-
ting the people of Ireland with a feverish existence." And
they might depend upon it, that as long as they did not legis-
late for the interests of the people, and the protection of their
rights, so long would they and their measures be regarded
with feelings of hostility. He would not enter at greater
length into the question, as he had already oecupied their at-
tention so recently on the specific merits of the Bill. It was
said, the other night, in refe:ence to the diminution of crime
in Ireland, that that was owing to the debates which took
place on the Bill in this House, and also to the terror caused
by its having passed the House ot Lords. He could assure the
spelithowever,took
fthat
House,
peoplea dit
cllr.oefd lireeelsa.nd
Hk noecwoulli
ttitl e ot what
not close
the few remarks he thought 9n
his duty to make, without call-
ing their attention to ite time
before the House. On the 21,11e0f during whieh this Bill was
fair:nary last the Bill was
first alluded to in the speech from the throne, and her Ma-
jesty's Government nearly a month afterwards brought for-
ward this measure. After numerous
delays and procrastina-
tions February was allowed to pass, and it was
March before the Bill received the sanction ofthteheiioeundse of
of
Lords. Irrespective of the merits of the Bill, howeeerh
would ask if crime had been as prevalent in Durham, York-
shi
re, and cther counties of England, as it had been repre
sented to have been in Ireland, would they for an instant
have tolerated the Gcvernment to defer the consideration of
a measure for its repression for the space of five months ?
(Hear, hear.) He would ask the Noble Lord (Lord G. Ben-
tinck) would he have done so ? After making an extract•
from the former speech of the Noble Lord to show that he
would not, the Hon. Gentleman proceeded to say that if
it were true that assassination was so prevalent in Ireland,
they ought to have taken more decisive and immediate steps
with regard to the present Bill. He did not wish to trouble
the House longer. He was quite certain that the Bill was
altogether unnecessary, and he trusted that the Noble Lord
(George Bentinck) would follow out his own declaration, and
oppose it. He very much regretted that the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Ireland should have made this the first public act
of his in regard to that country. He would conclude by moving
as an amendment, that the Bill he read a second time that
day six months.
Mr. BERNAL rose to second the motion. He was free to
confess, that when a similar Bill was proposed formerly, he
supported it, but he was not confirmed, by any salutary expe-
rience he had of its effects, of the propriety of giving his sup-
port to the present measure. He asked them, was that the
only remedy they had for the grievances of that country ?
(No, no.) The Hen. and Gallant Member said "No."
Well, then, what other remedies did they propose to meet
the evils under which that country laboured? lie knew of
certain parts of Ireland which at that moment were suffering
from the greatest distress, and indeed he must say, that all
through Ireland very general distress existed.
Mr. DILLON BROWN here moved that the House be
counted

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. On our return,
there being 40 Members present,
Mr. BERNAL resumed. II; was sorry to find
that during
the discussion of a question of so much importance to Ireland,
barely 40 Members were present.—( Hear. hear.) He could
not see that such a Bill as the present could t:ave the effect of
preventing crime in Ireland, If parties in that country were
inclined to commit murder, thi3 measure would not prevent
them, and, therefore, the objeet for which it was introduced
was entirely defeated. Her Majesty's Ministers said that in
February last midnight murderers were sta'kieg, firth in a for-
midable manner, and assassinations were taking place in many
parts of Ireland, and to put a stop to sueli crime, they thought
fit to introduce the present measure. He could not see why it
was, that if the measure was for any good at all, it should have
been delayed to the month of June. To put a stop to crime
which existed in February, no legislative measure was brought
forward till that evening, and he thought that the long delay
which had taken place ty-eg a virtual abandonment of the Bill ;
indeed, he had thought that they were to hear no more of it,
and he was sure that at this period, when Ireland was in a state
of quiet, no such measure should be brought forward.
He believed that if they were to take the feeling of the people
of this country on such +a
measue, it would be found against it.
The people of England were not in favour of sending the Irish
peasantry to Van Diemen's Land for criain committed
through the misery they endured ; for it was well known to the
people of this country that starvation was at the bottom, in
fact, the root of all the crime committed in Ireland, and they
would be for preparing other measures for remedying the evils
whivh afflicted that country.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. DILLON BROWNE again moved that the House be
counted, when strangers were ordered to withdraw; but it
having been found that there were forty Members present,
Mr. BERNAL again resumed. The House could not be
surprised at the crime in Ireland when it was to be taken into
consideration that the juries in that country were not impar-
tially chosen without respect to creed.—( Hear.) He was told
that the people of Ireland placed no faith in the impartiality
of such juries, ann those that came before them felt but little
hope of impartial justice, chosen as they were for their political
partisanship.—(Hear, hear). What had they done for the
people of Ireland? Had they brought forward any great
question ? Had they proposed any great legislative measure
to relieve the distress which existed? The Government told
them that they were full of good intentions towards Ireland ;
but the House would bear in mind that those intentions were
never brought to bear in her favour.—( Hear, hear.) Year
after year they were hearing of the distress in Ireland, and still
nothing was done for that country. It was well known that
the peasantry of Ireland had no settlement, no claim on the
land, and from this fact had emanated many of the evils com-
plained of. It was well known the agrarian crimes committed
arose from the unsettled state of the landed tenure of Ireland,
and it was to this state of things that the Government should
turn its attention..--( Hear, hear.) It was evident that this
Bill was most untimely brought forward, for it had been re-
marked by several Peers who had voted for the mea-
sure that if they were aware it would have been
delayed for this period they would not have voted for it.
There must have been some reason for this change.—( Hear,
hear.) It was quite a romance to think that a Bill which was
brought forward to put a stop to midnight murders should be
delayed to a period when no such crimes were committed.—
(Hear. hear.) It was a measure more fitting for Mexico than
for Ireland at the present moment, and it was because he saw
that it was uncalled for that he voted for the amendment pro-
posed.
No Hon. Member having risen, and there being a cry of
,‘ Divide,"

The SPEAKER put the question and amendment, upon
which strangers were ordered to withdraw, but no division took
place ; and on our re-admission to the gallery,
Mr. OSBORNE was addressing the House. He said that
the Noble Lord opposite knew nothing whatever of the country
or of the question at all. In fact, with regard to Ireland,
there was not a man in that House more ignorant, with-the best
intentions, than the Noble Lord, the unsuccessful candidate for
Nottingham ; but he begged to tell the Noble Lord that
the way to deal with Ireland was not by maintaining an aristo-
cratic silence on the opposition benches. But he understood
that the Noble Lord accounted for his silence upon one occa-
sion by declaring that a man would require to be six years in
Ireland before he could answer any questions in respect to the
mode of governing her, However, he (Mr. Osborne) would
pass over the Noble Lo-d's opinion in this respect, bat he
would call upon the First Minister of the Crown not to deal
with this measure in this way, for he would ask, was it right or
was it respectful to Ireland to deal with this measure in this
way I.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of LINCOLN said he c uld assure the House,
and the Hon. Member who had last spoken, and who had
made a speech which contained charges that he felt assured
could not be justified by the circumstances, that though
he might be ignorant of Ireland, and Irish affairs,
be would wish, in reply to the Honourable Member,
who had seconded the amendment, to address himself to the
subjects touched upon by him, and to explain his views and the
views of the Government upon this question. But here let
him remark, that when this House had been twice counted out
within a few minutes, and when he looked at the benches op-
posite, and when he saw there only three or four of the repre-
sentatives of Ireland, he should say it did appear to him that
they did not bestow much attention to the measure; and he
should add, that it would be acting a more becoming part, and
appear more respectful to Irish measures, if he, however igno-
rant of them, yet as the Secretary for Ireland. had endeavoured
to postpone to a later period of the evening those observations
he had to make, and which ho would not shrink from making
at any time, upon this subject. Nothing appeared to him
more probable than that he should be taunted with having
risen at a time when nobody expected he would have done ,
so, or that he had shrunk from the opportunity of raising
his voice in favour of this measure, when a large
number of the Iris's Members should be present.
When he had heard several voices cry out for a division, he did
not wish to rise at that moment, as he thought there might be
others present who would wish to take a part in the discussion ;
but when he did not see any other Member prepared to do so,
he then rose, and he begged to assure the House it was per-
fectly immaterial to him at what period cf the night he ad-
dressed the House, for he was not so vain as to desire to see it
crowded, while he was making a speech. Now, having made
these observations, in answer to the violent assault which had
been made upon him by the Hon. Member opposite, be would
proceed to apply himself to the subject now under discussion,
and in doing so he begged to assure the House that he would
endeavour to avoid all mention of irritating topics or party
allasions. He would endeavour to confine what he had to say
to a defence of this Bill, and a justification of the provisions it
contained. The Hon. Member for Drogheda had done him
the honour to say that it must have been with pain that he (Lord
Lincoln) had assumed the post of Ireland.RSaercorneetta,rythfoartitwa'.wHitn
painthe he
eighhatd
risen in
e
in the discharge of his official
couldmuch
duty togarsspernuotreperose this measure, but as it was a duty he would
not shrink from it. He need not remind the House that when
first this measure was introduced, the Gov' rm ertwuerts•ee
tshueby-
jected to all manner of charges with regard to the course were adopting, lion. Members opposite had said that this
measure was introduced without reason or excuse, or justifi-
cation ; and those Hon. Members on his side, who sat below
the
gangway, said that the measure had been delayed too
long. Now, he conceived that the first of those charges had
been disposed of by the first discussion which had taken place, and
it had always been held good that it was not
cdoeszbi
appeal
press on such a measure hastily, and he thought
measure
to the general policy of the present Government
diction to the assertion that this had bebeneet na is
ntroduced
rcoodr ea d
without reason, or excuse,
Act to this existed in the
him remind the House that a similar
withouty ai* 1 3or justification, for doing so. Let
Governmentreva. et . allowed five
afidv calyearsalso
l allowed
elapseed
il
the
deprived of many of
Unlawful Oaths' Act, it had been its
Party Processions Act to expire; and though they had revised
the 5
attemptingnndy et theto
most t
offensive and onoxious clauses. Then there was the ,
which the Noble Lord, whom he now
(Lord Clements), gave such strenuous
oppos.t
• that that Act had not beers put in force in any offen-
on,
Arm
sitting at
saw Act,
theo
bar
ive manner. With regard to the charge.of having delayed this
Bill too long, he begged to ray he did' notfhink that that charge
lay at the door of the Government. But he would much rather
bear with such a charge th .n let it be said they were pressing it
on too hastily. The Hon. Baronet opposite complained of this
delay, and yet he moved the postponement of the measure ; and
therefore if there was any offence in delay, the Hon Mem-
ber opposite participated in it. His Right Hon. Friend near
him had been accused of not wishing to pass the Corn Bill, or
he would not have pressed on the first leading of the Bill—
and yet they were charged with delay. This Bill had been
spoken of as an unconstitutional measure, and it should be ad-
mitted that it was so, but it could only he justified by a stern
necessity, and in such a state of things as where life and pro-
perty were not protected by the law now within the compass of
the Constitution.' In fact, the only liberty that now existed in

_7l:-1-:::k7,:---,--.71.11;.'
Ireland was liberty far murder and outrage ; but the AO'. -. .: '-, ' ..,....•
liberty for the protection of the peaceable and those w mil:pad_
be protected ; and let him remind the House that t 'r)e*".-:.. -:•., ,--- + ,
sure was intended to be applied to five counties only, \iie,,' -i.:„.. disease, through epidemic, he feared was contagious in ma 'italtaN, , -
also. The measures previously introduced had been suce ;:'.,:4,...-e: i i --.‘4,4N1
though they had not been brought into operation. ;..f Ay L"
crty._
had been successful in operating on the minds of the people 43.
Ireland. On the previous debate there had been so many
cases adduced in support of the Bill, that he hesitated now in
troubling them further. He knew, however, that it was more
by cumulative instances, than by a few strong cases, that
such a meaoire as the present ought to be grounded. The
Right Hon. Baronet ( Sir John Somerville) in the course of
his speech observed, that he considered the Government were
bound to do three things. In the first place, they were bound
to show the necessity for the measure; in the second place,
that the state of things complained of could not be
put down by the operation of the laws; and in
the third place they were hound to show that there was a fair
prospect of the Bill being effectual and efficacious in working a
change. He (Lord Lincoln) was ready to admit that this was
a fair representation of the duty of the Government in intro-
ducing such a Bill ; and if they were not already satisfied with
the cases that had been given in support of the measure,
he was willing to establish the case still further. But
before doing so he must refer to a statement made by
the Hon. and Learned Member fur Cork (Mr. O'Connell),
who affirmed that the disorders complained of principally,
if not mainly, were of an agrarian character, and were to be
got rid of; by a Bill for regulating the position of landlord
and tenant, and measures of a similar kind. By a careful
examination of the criminal returns, he (Lord Lincoln) found
this statement disprovedcornopinegthelytherew
as
some; and
he
connexionshould ro v prove
tetweento
the House that
w theseas outragesnnt j n s
justified
fiaendd the
in
stating land, t h the
thatHweern e.
eoaifnt
iadi
ne
rLae,gtahriae-tri eimadnaGjcoherniatrtylaecmnt
character.
They large proportion ;of the crimhe
of life. To use the language
fe
red with,prove
butt h a that
that not t
no
en
yl y
e•
nt t
ee r landlord
into
of everyt ahned 0
tr
Honourabletenanttl
er relationship
laartei ni
nn
stahenir
dp-
judiced source than the Commission authorised
,ii s
e a sLearneddiseased."
, 'AI Member er
provef or
this,Cork,
he
go
ob o
tcloyb a 3
moret 1i
eGovern-
ment corporate
u n pwr
ea
..1
months ago, presented its report. The
" thecould wnhootl c
Devon had pre-
sidehe referred was that over which Lord De
particular attention attehnetion(
to inquire into the state of Ireland, and'which, three.h
Miller, superintendentL (Lord
fdfto the returns
police.
tLincoln)he
fHouse
Theseu Commission to wine
in the first volume of the appendix furnished by Colonel
add, were arrived at, with the view of establishing ahefaemt might
call the
se w
i sreturns,he d
t°
disputes respecting land were at the bottom of these outrages.
This, however, was not proved by the returns furnished. The
offences, as furnished in 1844 by the constabulary police, are
given as agrarian, and otherwise. In that year there was the
alarming number of 6,337 cases of outrage. Of this number
5,336 were not agrarian, there being only 1,001 which were
of an agrarian character, or less than one-third. But of this
1,001 there were 417 which were not strictly agrarian, but
were cases of threatening notices. These, strictly speaking,
should be deducted. If they went into minute particulars, the
case was stronger still. They would then see that crimes of
the worst character were not agrarian, as the following would
show :

Ineendhry fires, not agrarian
„ „ agrarian

Assaulting and threatening life, not agarian... 238
, 1 VI agrarian . .... 12

Aggravated assault, not agrarian
99 „ agrarian 4O

Firing at the person, not agrarian.....
„ agrarian

47

Homicides, not agrarian. .. .....
' , agrarian
This clearly showed that the statement of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman the Member for Cork was not borne out
by facts and figures. These returns had been classified as
agrarian and not agrarian at the desire of the Commission,
with the object of showing, no doubt, that agrarian outrages
were at the bottom of these outrages, but this had not been
borne out by the results. In further exemplification, he would
refer to returns which he had laid on the table of the House
last Friday, and which had been printed that morning. They
were so voluminous that he did not apprehend Hon. Members
could have examined them yet ; but they would find, if they
investigated, that what he had stated respecting the nature of
the outrages was snore than borne out. He would read a few
extracts as bearing on the case. He had classified them
as far as time would allow, and they exemplified the
real social state of the five counties in which the
outrages had most prevailed. The first class frem which he
would read was that relating to crimes arising out of disputes
between the landlords and tenants, but not strictly of an agra-
rian character.—(Hear.) He would remark that this was a
very small class in comparison with ihe others. The first case
he would refer to, was that of an attack of a person of the name
of Kelly, whose house, on the 1:3!li of December, was entered
at night by a body of men whose faces were blackened. They
demanded Kelly, and were told that he was from home. They
sent a search and found his horse ; then they made a strict
examination of the premises, when Kelly was found, and
abused and threatened that his life would be taken if he did
not treat his tenants with more kindness. The tenants referred
to were parties living on the property, but refused to pay any
rent. He knew some of the parties, and was willing to lodge
informations, but he durst not move in the case until he had
sold off his stock, and he could not do so if it was known he
would proceed against the parties. No one would purchase
from him. He would go from this class to another,
compelling servants to leave their employment. On the
29th of January, in the county of Wicklow, six persons entered
the house of a farmer and beat a servant of the name of
Michael, because he would not leave. There was another
case in which seven men beat a servant because he would not
leave so as to afford employment for some other parties. The
Noble Lord read several other eases of the same kind from the
counties of Wicklow and Tipperary. He had one case which
would show a minuteness of interference so strange as likely to
excite a smile from Hon. Members, On the 23th of Dec.,
three armed men assaulted a female servant employed by
Samuel Cowe, Esq., and that gentleman was fired at by the
parties. The complaint was that the servant, a dairymaid, was
too penurious in her supply of milk to the labourers. The
next case to which he would refer was interference to compel
masters to discharge servants. On the 27th July last,
in the county of Tipperary, an armed party as-
saulted a gentleman, because he would not dis-
miss certain labourers that were obnoxious to them.
He would now proceed to another class of offences, namely,
that to prevent persons entering into particular trades, or pre-
venting competition in the county of Clare. On October the
26th, at seven o'clock in the evening, the steward of a steam.
boat was violently assaulted by five men, because he got his
supply of milk from parties to whom they objected, and did
not deal with those which they desired. Another case hap-
pened on the 25th of August, in the county of Leitrim of a
similar character. In the county of Roscommon three car-
riers were violently assaulted by seven men, because they fed
their horses at the house of a particular party, and not at a
place where the assaulting persons were desirous they should do so.
There was another case which he could quote contained in the
returns he had laid upon the table of the House that evening ;
but he thought he had already read a sufficient quantity of
these cases. He had read more of this class than he had origi-
nally intended, because they tended to show that crime
could only exist where, by some means or other, society had
been greatly disorganised. Now, with the permission of the
House, he would read a class of cases sander the heads of " Pre.
venting the Recovery of Debts," and " The Enforcement of
Contracts." In January last, Michael Doctrine, in the county
of Roscommon, was seriously maltreated because he had en-
forced a contract in returning a cow which did not turn out
according to agreement. In February, a man named Mac Carty
was waylaid and brutally ill-used because he recovered money on
certain I 0 U vouchers. On the 7th April, in the same city, a
man named Thomas Croft was " sworn' to refund a debt which
he had received ten years before. He felt he was trespassing
too long upon the time and attention of the House with these
details, but it was necessary that he should go into them,, in
order that the House should see the necessity for passing this
Bill. There was, therefore, another class of eases to which
he must refer. They were comprised under the heads of
" compelling people to marry," " not to marry," or " to give
fortunes to particular persons going to get married." On the
31st January last, Michael Byron, a comfortable farmer in
Roscommon, was " sworn" to fulfil his promise to marry" a
certain female." On 21st February Richard Guyer's house
was burned, to prevent a particular, marriage taking place.
About the same period a man named Turnan was beaten,
and " sworn to marry a particular female." The
next class of eases to ' which be must call thea
int the 2,
and 2 n d
tention of the House, arose out
I(3)utt giving
tivwinotld evidenceonly be
against persons who violated the
ue la ,
of September, a man named
maltreated and beaten, for having
his daughter, were seriously cilnasßs.oscOomn
necessary for him to read oneseniith,flwitiisg
had lately occurred in the county of Leitrim, where a
nature ,
' intimidateher son not to prosecute a
given evidence in a particular case. Another case of the same
widow was " sworn to .
1844. He would now,
charge which had been preferredin against certain parties of
having murdered her husband
with the permission of the House, read to them some de-
his official roatine. There were five cases reported to him,
tails which he received yesterday in the ordinary course of
and three of them were cases of gross interference with the
social and domestic relations of life. He hoped the House
would understand why he had selected these particular classes
of cases. He had done so because it had been stated by Hon.
Gentlemen .opposite that the outrages perpetrated in Ireland
were principally of an agrarian character. There was one par-
ticular case of an agrarian character, which had recently come
to his knowledge, and which he must read to the House. It
occurred in the county of Roscommon, where three men, armed
with pistols and bludgeons, broke into the house of a poor man,
and demanded that he should go down en his knees to be
threefacosendsetlouednocesowaws ihtheowutasknimowmiendgiawtehlyy
a"nsdw owrhne.
r'
e' f 0
rTel: e
a nmdan
fired at and wounded in three parts of his body. He was then
" sworn" to give up possession in favour of his brother-in-law,
who had occupied the cottage and lands some seven years be=
fore. He thought he had sufficiently shown the House that
there was no relationship in life in Ireland, eitbersocial
or domestic, which was not interfered
with
;to while,the c sea
the House would take the trouble to lookin
they would find that it was impossible inman
Having en-
y parts of the
country that public duties could be performed.asked what was the
cause of these outrages,
tered into these details,
het
might be
he regretted his inability to
answer that question. From
bat
evidence before Lord Devon's
would be seen by the answers of a Mr. Cahill,
Commission, it
.. .
solicitor, that these outrages arose
a Roman Catholic sessional
out of an organised system prevailing
in the country to avenge
d satisfy malice in the manner he had stated. He
disputes an
now came to another important part of the statement he was
anxious
• to make to the House. The Hon. and Learned
Member for Cork, incidentally observed the other night, that
since the introduction of this Bill crime had considerably
diminished in Ireland, and the lion, and Learned Member at-
tributed that diminution to the exertions Government were
making to remove the distress which existed in many parts of
Ireland. He admitted that to some extent crime might have
diminished within the last three or four months in Ireland,
but when he looked to the cause of that diminution, he
did not think that it could be urged against the second reading
of this Bill. Hitherto it had been ascertained that as
the days lengthened crime diminished. And to some extent
he was ready to admit that the measures of Government for
giving employment to the destitute poor had tended to reduce
crime in Ireland; but let him remind the House that both
the distress and the remedy was of a temporary character, and
it was, therefore, their duty to provide for the future. He,
however, deeply regretted that with regard to this supposed di-
minution of crime, it was his duty to undeceive the • Hon. and
Learned Member for Cork. In the early part of the evening
he laid upon the table of the House certain papers to which he
had alluded in the course of the observations he had felt it his
duty to address to the House; they were the returns of crimes
perpetrated in Ireland from the 31st December to the 31st
Alay, the first five months in the present year. He regretted
that these returns had not been in the hands of Hon. Members
to enable them to check or compare his statements with the de-
tailed returns, but the truth was they only reached him yesterday,
and, of course, he could not lay them on the table before that
evening. This was a return of all aggravated crimes, assaults, and
other offences which were committed between the month of May,
1845, and the month of May, 1846. It was only necessary,
in order to substantiate the correctness of this comparison,
that he should state that this return did not include outrages
neither age.s
neither did
or injuries designated as assaults on the police;