The Sun.
London, England, 1848-05-17 00:00:00

LONDON, WEDNESDAY

members of the chapter; and the public conviction was
that such was not the case. But if the law were not
violated, was it fitting that the state of the Church of
England should be subjected to these perpetual uiscus-
sions year after year? Within the last 14 or 15 years
the question of the income of the cathedral clergy had
been taken up and fully examined, and a legislative
measure had been passed relative thereto. It was said
there were numerous clergy whose income was con-
siderably less than that of the canons; but why not make
the same objections against the gradation of rank and
income in all civil and laical professions arising from the
necessary inequality of condition? Such gradation he
believed to be on the whole beneficial, though he was far
from wishing that the incomes of the poorer clergy
should be so low. He would not pull down the high,
but elevate the low. He should as soon think of
taking the incomes of the aristocracy of England and
distributing them amongst the people as of taking
the incomes of the hierarchy of the Church to aug •
ment those of the poorer clergy. He maintained
that in this respect there was no difference between
Church
propertyd of any other kind. It the
income on was to be taken away,
they
goode a right to seize that of
hecorporation
The Hon. and Learned
t would
o apropertyufld thea o
e Bishop
j and
just
s d
London.t
as
nfLe
Gentleman said that with the exception of St. Martin's,
which was the mother church of England, the incomes
of the incumbents of the other Is livings in the neigh-
bourhood
ogsdree
chapterato tntfehy dec more
nint
oni
tfarce teroc;
bm,
Canterbury
stayuen,tr
ohtwt
hrh,ty,
ihsal
:eet
of the cathedral of Canterbury were very
They)
churches small.t
ir
leei ene (Sirnt wha
eti ti hr
neighbourhood
de ge al
ti nasou far
hnr
The Hon. and asn,7do(L) Gentle-
manaetatrenneddedthel6
and
gtihobndeissenting chapels. He wished
members of the Church of Englani;
at a greaterbraagh td
ts distance.
an
eh accusation against the dean a
.
chapterc4
chath,Bn
or
()eahl
pleespr thatesircnsn persons
h,pewo
attended pe nur were
ai
but the tact that there were 4,800 persons attending
dissenting chapels in Canterbury did not justify an
attack upon the dean and chmdiitinhafotrmtheed
innumthbaetr
roef'
daapitleyr.servTichee
a t Hon.ch Christ-
church, "Heeon. and Learned Gentleman
that but 18 not officials
Learned Gentleman athlelmesshouchdneadi
noamhtffiutnecsrnitnadhl
he,
daipersons.vhelio He thought
been very
vgoweh
rat attended
spect, because he could say from his own experience
that the cathedral of Christchurch was most numerously
attended. Every place was occupied, and the congreca-
don was as attentive as in any parish church in England.
—(Hear, hear.) He could also state that the cathedral
th body there charged the tithes with 3601. a year, for the
and purpose
uo e of augmenting
e the livings ot the poorer clergy,
colleges sacrificed 2001. a year for the
purpose of increasing one of the small vicarages. The
Hon. and Learned ,Gentleman, however, directed his
attack chiefly against the cathedral of Lincoln, and said
that in the year 1831 an income of 6,9801. was divided
amongst four individuals—the dean, the sub-dean, chan-
cellor, and precentor. He could not say why the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman should select the income of
1831 rather than the income of 1848 ; but in the first
place he would remark that no person had a right to
m-ike an inquiry respecting the income of another,
whether lay or clerical, unless he asked for an increase.
Ile might say, however, without breach of privilege, that
the income of one of those individuals was 1,5001. ; and
he would ask the House whether that was too large a
sum for a person filling one of the higher stations in
the Church ? But he received 1,500/. for the first
year only. The second year he received but 1,1001., and
this, the third year, his income was 8001. only, out of
which he had to pay 2001. for the building of a house.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then went on to
Carlisle Cathedral, in respect to which the Hon. anal
Learned Gentleman's celleague (Mr. Aglionby) took
every opportunity of asking the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Secretary of State when he would introduce his Bill
for the compulsory enfranchisement of copyholds. That
Hon. and Learned Gentleman held a beneficial lease
tinder the dean and chapter of Carlisle, which he wished
to convert into a more beneficial freehold.—(" Hear,
hear," from Mr Aglionby.) The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman quoted from a celebrated petition, which
stated that the dean and chapter of Carlisle had an in-
come of 20,000/. a year in one county, the fact being
that their revenue from the three counties of Northum-
berland, Cumberland, and Westmore land, was 17,0001.,
of which they received only 3,3001., the other lion.
and Learned Member for Cockermouth, and other
lawyers, receiving the difference. The petitioners,
however, told their own story, and they left
it to be inferred that the dean and chapter received all
the money. They stated that the dean and chapter re-
ceived 2,0001. from the parishes of Wetheral and War-
wick, the actual income which they received being only
3501. He could not see why the dean and chapter
should be called on in their character of lay impropria-
tors to supply the spiritual destitution of those places
out of an income of 3501., whilst others were receiving
the difference. The amount received by each canon of
the cathedral of Carlisle was 5301., which could not be
considered too much for those who occupied a pre-emi-
nent position in the Church. He hoped he never would
aigsdnusottyrroannnfgt
so far forget the principles on which lie always acted as
to be unmindful of the spiritual destitution of the coun-
try.wthethose
e as
se
whofelt
personal
were
,et
neagrs
the
hthe
stated
nationalta t instruction
d o n toast.
l;pyroehmehot
former occasion, and as all subsequent inquiry con-
vinced him, that could not be done by individuals. It
could not be done by the plan of the Right Hon.
Baronet. What could be done by that plan had
beau done, but the spiritual destitution of the people
was not diminished. He agreed in the expression of
the Noble Lord that civil and social prudence, as well as
the religious duty, called upon them to provide for the
instruction of those who were spiritually destitute.
There was no better guarantee for the permanence of
their institutions, and the rights of property, than that
the people should be religious and educated. flow
were these to be imparted to them ? All their exer-
tions, and al the exertions of the Dissenters, had failed
to overtake the amount of destitution which prevailed.
They should not look to an altered distribution of the
church revenues, which had already been carried as far
as it could be carried, or to any other extrinsic means,
but to national aid; and the nation would tail in its duty
if, while it provided at the public expense for all the
other interests of the country, if, neglected and disre-
garded that which he believed to be the most vital and
essential of all.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. AGLIONBY said that the Hon. 'Baronet had
made a most uncalled-for and unreasonable allusion to
him personally, and he could not conceive what had
caused hire to do so; for, although he cordially sup-
ported the proposition of his Hon. Colleague, which he
hoped would excite that attention in the House which he
knew it excited throughout the country, he never said
anything to justify the Hon. Baronet in alluding to him
as he had done. It was true that be had asked the Right
Hon. Baronet the t'ecretary of State when he would
taring in his Bill for making compulsory the enfranchise-
ment of copyholds, and he would continue to do so again
and again till that odious custom was abolished. It was
true that he was a leaseholder under the dean and
chapter, but that had nothing to do with the question
before the House. He did not think that the dean and
chapter of Carlisle had a right to tax skill, capital,
and labour, and to reap where it never sowed. The Hon.
Baronet alluded to a petition which had been presented
to the House this session. Ile thought the dean
and chapter bad reason to say of the lion. Baronet,
" Save me from my, friends." He did not wish to
cast opprobrium on individuals. What h. e found fault
with was the system. Now, the petition which the
Hun. Baronet alluded to contained statements, some of
which he himself knew to be true, and the others he
believed to be true. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
here read several of the statements in the petition, to the
effect that the duties were performed by curates, who
received only 201. a year, and in many instances smaller
sums; that there was no resident incumbent, and that the
parochial house was in a ruinous state; that two of the
largest and most populous parishes, including the city of
Carlisle, were served by curates, to whom the dean and
chapter only gave 51. a year; that the incumbent of ano-
ther of the parochial curacies died in a workhouse. He
thought it was a shame and a scandal that such a state
of things should be suffered to exist, whether by lay or
clerical impropriators.—(Hear, hear.) When seven out
of the nine persons who were connected with the dean
and chapter of Carlisle were the sons of archbishops or
bishops, it was apt to create a suspicion, however wor-
thy the individual might be, that matters were not
fairly managed.—(Hear, hear.) The petitioners stated
at the end of the petition that they bad no reason to
believe the other cathedral churches were beta r ma-
naged, and he (Mr. Aglionby) concurred in that opi-
nion.—(Hear, hear.)
Col. SIBTHORP defended the clergy of Lincoln from
the attack of the lion. and Learned Gentleman. He
was sure that they would not object to inquiry ; and if
one were to take place, the charges of the lion. Member
would be found to be frivolous, vexatious, and un-
founded. He had two relatives connected with the
church in Lincoln, and he should like to know whether
he alluded to either of them. He did not know of what f
religion the Hon. Gentleman was, or hweleseuttrer hnt,
e awas of
nd he
any.—(Order.) He felt strongly on t
he did, when the
thought he was justified in speaking as
fL' col t
Honourable Gentleman accused the clergy o n o
would be most
conduct which, if they were guilty of it,
disgraceful to them.
Mr. HORSMAN said he brought no charges against
individuals. What he complained of was the system,
1
Col. SIBTHORP said
the living of Washingboro was
one of those which was included in the limits of
ten
miles around Lincoln, and if that did not give him a
right to complain, he did not knovr what did.
Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE quite agreed with the Hon.
Mover, that his motion had in no way been based. upon
personal assault or individual attack. The question had
been based, and very prop
d, based, on the operation
and administration of the law, and in that view he was
himself about to treat it.
The question being, whether
e t
the state of the law was one which required amend-
ment,he it h though t
he admitted that on t
be left permanentlhe
y
law was not one which ought to ace
without alteration. That law broke up the old cathe-
dral system, and very much reduced its efficiency. It
bound the canons to residence for three months out ot
every twelve, but it left the definition of that residence
very doubtful, and it left other matters in a
_veuryalif.tinuetso-
tionable position, which it would be most d
have settled. He confessed for his own part that ho
should like greatly to see the systei
rat
shreconsidered ould be the
Everything connected with learning,
duty of the cathedral dignitaries to
some wayl este B that promote,Ca-
and the Act
Was Very defective in not insisting in •
d bl'il-
lions should do something to render cathedral
meats conducive to the promotion of theological learn-
ing. He should be glad to see some of the stalls appro-
priated distinctly to educational purposes, whilst others
were made available to the furtherance of the parochial
ministry, In the case of the former, permanent resi.
deuce would be required, and the holders of the stalls
should have no otter preferment. In the latter case
(the stalls held by persons having charge of large