The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-10 00:00:00

5tr,24.7, LONDON, TIFURSDAY EVEN')ING, AUGUST to, Ma.

and what were those which it wished to modify. The
general subject involved much debateable matter ; but a t
great deal of that had been cleared away by previous
discussions. The amount of force employed in the navy for
the present year had, for instance, been decided by a vote
of the House, and which was of course the rule of the Ad-
miralty ; and the Hon. Member for Montrose even would
admit that it was of no utility, now that that point had
been so decided, to go over the same ground again on the
present occasion. Under the votes 1,2, 8,,10, 11, 13, 14. in,
16, and 18 'of the estimates, there was a saving of 200,0001.
The reduction on vote 1, was in the wages of seamen and ma-
rines; that in No. 2, was in provisions for the natty; that in
No. 3, was in the Admiralty-office; that under ?in. 8, was in
the wages of men and artificers employed in dockyards) that
in No. 10, was on navy contracts for stores ; that in No. 11,
was in new works, improvements, and repairs ; that in No.
13, was on the miscellaneous items ; and that on Nos. 14, 15,
and 16, was on the half-pay and retired allowance of officers'
pensions and allowances; that on No. 18, was freight. on ac-
count of the Homa Department. The total amount of reduc-
tion proposed to be made for the year was 208,0004, which
left the estimates in this position. The increase of the pre-
sent year over the last was 214,644/. on the gross votes.
The sum proposed to be redaced—namely, 208,000/., de-
ducted from this, brought down the increase of the esti-
mates this year over the last to 6,6441. If the net votes were
taken, however, it would be found that there was a reduc-
tion of 43,0001. on the estimates of 1848-49, as compared
with those of 1847-48. Circumstances, he (Mr. W.)
admitted, had changed since those estimates were framed.
Parliament had in that time considered the whole subject;
and it was satisfied with the progress that had been made in
providing for the naval defences of the country since 1842.
It was the duty of the naval department of the public ser-
vice to combine economy with efficiency; and that duty
he was, he hoped, in a position to prove had been per-
formed by the Admiralty. The Committee, at page 9of
their report, admitted that economy was not dependent
on the number of men, and there still remained room
for the application of well-considered retrenchments.
The first recommendation of the Committee was the re-
vision of the force employed on the foreign and home
stations. The number of men on the foreign stations was
about 7,000, on the :home station about 5,000 ; but it was
impossible to state accurately the number, in consequence of
the varying circumstances. Indeed, as the Committee
stated, " the expenditure for the effective services of the
army, navy, and ordnance, must in a great measure depend
ipon the amount of force which the advisers of the Crown
nay consider necessary. A satisfactory decision upon this
übject could only be formed after a careful and deliberate
arvey of the position of the country in regard to its inter-
s alresources, its external interests, the state of its foreign
elations, its political obligations, and the maintenance and
fulfilment of all the various rights and duties which belong
to the extensive and long-established dominion of the Bri-
tish empire." The Admiralty concurred in that opinion.
They admitted upon the whole the statement. of the Com-
mittee in page 13, though they did nut admit all the facts
on which: it was founded, when the report alleged " that
whatever cause might have led to the increase of force
upon any particular station, when once the force had
been augmented, there was too frequently some unfortu-
nate hindrance to its subsequent reduction ;" and that
4.` when the enemy was defeated and hostilities were at
an end, other duties were found for the ships em-
ployed, and the force which was required for the contin-
gency of a war remained as the permanent establishment in
time of peace." There is no doubt that duties for ships
of war grew in presence of the means for perform-
ing
,there. Every diplomatic agent asked for a ship of
war is case of any disturbance when ships were in his
neighbourhood, and it was exceedingly difficult to break
through the custom that had obtained of granting the assist-
ance in such cases required. The principal foreign naval
stations were the Pacific, the Indian Seas, and the Cape of
Good-Hope. On all these stations, however, the amount of
the naval foree of the country had been considerably dimi-
nished this year. For instance, in the East Indies and China,
where there were in 1843 no less than 36 ships of war, there
were now only 25. The number of ships on this station
was in

paid in the dockyards. The importance of properly inves-
tigating this question could not be overrated, and the Com-
mittee had given great attention to it. The vote No. 6
commenced with stating the reasons for the re-establishment
of Deptford as 'a building-yard. Reasons of policy as well
as economy required this to be done. The necessity for
building steam-ships required that additional facilities for
building them should be found. No resources were so
immediately available at the time as the re-establish-
ment of Deptford yard as a building-yard,.and this would
account for the increase in this department. As to the total
number of ships in the dockyards, they were not more than
were sufficient for the public service. The question of timber
inspectors he would leave for the present. At page 46 the
Committee made some remarks with reference to the super-
intendence of timber received in the dockyards, in every one
of which he entirely concurred. Those remarks truly pointed
out that everything depended on the vigilance of the super-
intendent. If that officer did not exert himself, much useless
expenditure and enhanced cost of useful works would take
place. It was, as had been suggested, therefore, most impose.
tant that these offices should not be conferred on men as an
honorary reward for past services, but should be reserved
for men of competent knowledge and ability. It was the
determination of the Admiralty not to confer appointments
of this sort henceforward on any one who was not in full
possession of his faculties, both of body and mind. An
important saving could be effected in this department, but
the difficulty would be to find fit men to fill these posts,
on account of the multifarious and important character of
the duties. The report further stated that our public esta-
blishments were disadvantageously circumstanced in one
particular respect, and gave his (Mr. Ward's) authority for
this statement. He (Mr. Ward) begged to say that he
never gave an opinion as to the expediency of breaking up
our establishments, or diminishing them unduly—or substi-
tuting private contracts for shipbuilding in place of building
ships in our dockyards. If one thing was more clearly
proved than another, it was that an increased expense
would be incurred by transferring shipbuilding from the
dockyards to private shipbuilders' yards. He admitted that
dockyards were worse in one respect, because they had not
the stimulus which existed in private shipbuilding. But
the Admiralty had done all they could to remedy this disad-
vantage. They had given up all the patronage of the dock-
yards--they had made them a fair field for all—and they
had received the best evidence of the good and salutary
working of the new system. They had found that the
system was doing good every day, and that it was giving
a stimulus to the dockyard artificers, which was an equi-
valent for the stimulus afforded by private enterprise. He
believed the system was creating a new set of valuable ar-
tisans, and creating a race of officers who would do credit to
the public establishments, and who would leave little to de-
sire, as far as the advantages of private establishments were
concerned. The Committee justly remarked that the esta-
blishments of the country ware regulated by the wants of
the country. The Committee made a comparison between
the navy of past times and the navy of the present time—a
comparison, however, which he hardly thought they had
carried out to the full extent. The decrease which had
taken place in some classes of our ships of war was most ex-
traordinary. In line-of-battle ships, the number in 1814 was
199 of all classes, while in 1848 the total number was 47.
In 1814 the total number was 199
1825 ... ... 117
1835 ... 97
1848 ... 47

This showed the progress of decay in this department of the
service. Some had been converted into hulks, some to hos-
pital ships, some to quarantine ships, and others to other
purposes ; but it was true that as line-of-battle ships we
had not 50 ships. This was owing to the large addition
which we had made to oar navy of steam- ships. A large
expense had beers incurred for building steam-vessels, and
must continue for some time, if Lord Auckland's recom-
mendation as to building three ships a year for some years
to some were adopted. The estimates for the dockyards
was fixed in the year 1830 at 6G,0001. a year. This was
after the introduction of steam, and at a period when all
matters connected with the dockyards were cut down much
too low. But as no reference was had to the increase of the
steam-navy these estimates did not last a year. Extra
lists were introduced, and the wants of these establish-
ments had gone on growing up to the present time.
The Committee recommended that these establishments
should be thoroughly revised, and that an inquiry be
instituted as to the amoant of building which ought to
take place for the next eight or ten years. The inquiry was
to be made by a mode fixed by an order in Council. 'Hired
men ought to be got rid of; there should be no extra men
employed, except under official sanction. In these recom-
mendations he acquiesced. The Admiralty were prepared
to revise those establishments, calling to their assistance per-
sons connected with the dockyards, and the Admiralty then
hoped next year to be able to come before Parliament with a
revised scheme for these establishments. There were many
other remarks in the report on matters of detail, for instance,
as to the duties of surveyors, in which there was complete
concurrence. The Committee recommended that the steam
and surveying departments be so organized as to work toge-
ther; the Admiralty would carry out the instructions of the
Committee for ce-operation in this respect, as the want of
co-operation in those two departments must be productive
of loss and mischief. The Committee alluded to the large
sums which had been expended in adapting steam machinery
to old ships of war. The guard-ship, the B!enheim, had
been so fitted up ; and three days ago a letter had been re-
ceived from a gallant and experienced officer, Captain Chads,
who described the performance of the Blenheim. The Blen-
heim was attached to Admiral Napier's squadron. She met
with very rough weather, but she weathered it equal to the
St. -Vincent or the Bellerophon, though carrying fifteen tons
more water. She was said to be available for either the Me-
diterranean or the Channel, and would keep a whole fleet of
the enemy's steamers at a prudent distance. She was in Cork
harbour when a gale was blowing. She steamed out at once,
and performed her voyage in a perfectly satisfactory manner.
Another portion of the Committee's remarks had reference to
the steam factories, and whether it would not be judicious to
reduce them. The vote was reduced 65,0001., which the
Committee thought was sufficient. The Admiralty agreed
with the Committee in thinking that the practice of doing
steam work in the yards was objectionable, and that this
duty ought to be limited to steam machinery. But he could
not agree with the Committee that the manufacture of
steam-boilers ought to be dis Continued in the dockyards.
The rivets and plates of which the boilers were made, were
not made in the dockyards. The only work that was done
in the dockyards was to put the boilers together. If boilers
were built by contract, as suggested, it would not be fol-
lowing out the principle of economy to build them at Bir-
mingham, and then have to remove such heavy bodies by
railway to the dockyards. The Committee then proceeded
to recommend a better system of accounts to be kept. It
was difficult to bring large establishments into working
order all at once when a new system was proposed ; but
he should not be satisfied until he saw a system of debtor
and creditor accounts, simple and accurate, produced be-
fore that House. The Committee recommended it to be
ascertained if the packet service could not be more
efficiently performed by private contract, and referred
to the communication between Holyhead and Dublin. The
Admiralty would have no objection to listen to any proposal
for making this service more efficient, provided it was based
on the principle of giving security that the service should be
well performed. With reference to the recommendations as
as to the extra hands, they should have consideration. The
Committee expressed apprehension that the establishment
at Malta was too expensive; but he thought the establish-
ment at Malta a great addition to our security, and it would
be found advantageous in point of economy to our steam ar-
rangements in the Mediterranean. Then, with reference to
naval stores, and the great consumption of English oak, as
being injudicious and impolitic, M. Creuze, the surveyor of
Lloyd's, advised, that by using other kinds of timber we
could economise our oak timber. The Admiralty were mak-
ing experiments in this direction. A great many new kinds
of timber had been recently introduced, and experiments
were now making with teak, Honduras mahogany, Italian
oak, and other sort r erood, to see how far they would
answer the rs/x •se '.l edockyard ; but it must be recol-
lected th its of timber were not in use in mer-
(snares, • s bad therefore no decision as to their
T str c. beyet arrived at. If, however, they were found
t taoitue, and they could have a fair trial, :they would be
zde to operate towards diminishing the consumption of
English oak. The Committee stated that a large expense of
timber would be necessary for the creation of our steam navy ;
bet they hoped a large reduction would be made on this
head. He should not be dealing fairly with the House if he
did not say that he did not think any large reduction could
be looked for. It must be recollected that Lord Auckland
said we ought to build three line-of-battle ships every year.
Now, these three line-of-battle ships yearly would require
18,000 loads of timber. That was not a vote, however, in
which he could hope to effect any very great saving. The
Committee recommended that the establishment of timber
ought to be kept up, as well as those of all the
principal articles in store in the dockyards, for, as
it observed, economy in such a vote was only postponing
a purchase—putting of the evil day, and leaving to
a future Parliament the necessity of making a greatly
increased vote. The Committee also recommended
that, considering the importance of the rote for timber, it
should be taken separately instead of being 'tamped with
other items. To that no objection could be made, and they
also expressed a hope that a large reduction would be made
in the item of steam machinery in the course of the ensuing
year. That had already been promised by the Government,
who had stated that they would effect a reduction of 180,0001.,
and he did not think that they could go further. Vote No. 11
•was the last vote of any importance connected with the navy
-upon which ha should have to make any remarks. It was
the vote relating to new words, and it had given rise to long
inquiries in the Couunittee,.and occasionedgreat difference of
opinion. The Committee said this was a vie to be judged,
not by a comparison with the estimateV of former years,
but with reference to the expediency of tie. works proposed.
and it then went on to inquire whether these new works were
indispensably necessary ; and whether precautions wer4taken
for due economy in their execution. He had no hesitation
in saying that all the works contcted by the Admiralty
department were most indispsably necessary. It
. was impossible to keep the eountry in an efficient and proper
state, with regard to her coast defosacee, without such works
as were then being carried on at Portsmouth, Chatham,
Woolwich, &c. Certainly, if more time for reflection and
preparation had been taken, if they had been planned ten
years since, there would have been more system in their
operation, and greater economy in their execution ; but in
all future works he would not have the House, in every case
where slight errors and faults were discovered, suspend
them, and refuse the grants for them; thus putting an end
to the works, and robbing the country of the benefit of all
the meney sunk in them. In forming that estimate the
Committee approved of the course of leaving all new works
under the vote No. 11. The Committee went on to remark
upon the minute details of all the various charges made in
each separate item; and it laid to the charge of the Govern-
ment, that for the last ten years it had not given a complete
plan of the factories built at Woolwich. That, however,
could not have been done ; for all the ingenuity of some of
the first engineers of the kingdom had been occupied for 14
years in improving it. The factory
of
die country,ncrease anddsmd theregrown
with the growth of the steam navy the
were constant demands upon it.
of experiments which had been triedThereinw were
veal sot e
ysuagr
dgses, taionnds,
being found useful to the public, were adthis he could not attach any blame to .
the board
Wit
for notall
integrity tegr sufficientty to
experience of the working of this factory to
fiotrt ei dt
oa
having Par iamseunbt
do so, but tea
years ago
upldlannootfbethdeonbeu. ilTdhinegy ihnadit;lio
could not have been done. The Committee ,
re-
marked upon the large factory establishments kept up by
the Government, but said that it had not been able to ex-
amine all the details. He admitted at once that there was
no subject more worthy of the attention of Parliament, and
he proposed to enter into a laborious inquiry into the matter
during the recess as to the means of avoiding the augmenta-
tion of the burdens of large and increasing factory establish-
ments. Until some such proceeding was adopted, no satis-
factory result could be obtained. With regard to the sawing
establishment, his Noble Friend seemed to think that the
public had not had all the benefit of all the reduction which
ought to have taken place in manual labour. It was only a
few months since these mills had comae into operation, and
yet they had lately made a large reduction in the manual
labour in the dockyard since the commencement of the pre-
sent year, and that system they were prepared to carry out
still farther. The next item in the report of the Committee
referred to the begin at Devonp° rt. That was begun
taken
nteenn
years ago, but since that time
great alterations had place in the
I"" Minya' great difference of opinion-4a

1814
1845
1846
1847 ... ...
Of these now afloat in those waters, none were ordered home.
In the Pacific, there were in
1845
1846
1847
1848
There were at this moment only seven, and two surveying
vessels, in that quarter. At the Cape of Good Hope the num,
hers were—

... 26 ships.
... 22
... 25

... 14 ships.
... J. 5

... 11 ships.

1847
1818
The Rosamond and Devastation were ordered home. The
Admiralty, however, saw no objection to the proposal of the
Committee fbr a general and complete revisal of the naval
stations abroad, before the vote for the next year was taken
on the estimates; and they were perfectly willing to inquire
how far it was possible to make any reduction safely and
honourably, as regarded the service of the country, not alone
in the number, but in the size of the ships on these stations.
He (Mr. W.) would next come to votes No. 1 and 2, into
which the Committee had entered at the greatest length.
The first recommendation of the Committee in respect of vote
2 was, that the two bases of that vote should be restored. He
(Mr. W.) had explained, in moving the votes for 1846-7, in
what way these bases came to be changed, and how the aver-
age struck on the bases, which had been sufficient for the four
or five years preceding, was insufficient for that year, in con-
sequence of the increased application of steam to naval pur-
poses. He agreed, however, with the Committee, that it was
now desirable to restore these two bases, and to act on the plan
laid down by Sir James Graham when he held office in the
Admiralty—namely, to take the number of ships in commis-
sion and' their complement of men, and apply that number to
the estimates for the ensuing period. This year there would
be a difference of 60,0001. on these bases. The Committee
stated the difficulty of arriving at any result on this vote,
since the money voted this year went in part to the pay-
ment of men who had entered three or four years since ; and
throughout the report they dwelt on that excess—in vote 1
especially, where they point to irregularity from that cause
in the navy estimates. But it was very difficult to get rid of
that irregularity; because ships were constantly put in com-
mission for particular purposes, while others were as con-
stantly discharged as circumstances arose to demand it; and
it was a thing quite certain that when once an excess was
created, it required the labour of years to reduce the amount
of the vote. When the present Government entered on
office, in July, 1846, he (Mr. W.) found a number of vessels
that had been recently commissioned with 2,531 men on
board, the full complement being 3,269. That was an ex-
cess bequeathed to them by their predecessors. Instead of
reducing that excess, however, it became necessary, in con-
sequence of the circumstances of the times, to commission
other vessels—the famine in Ireland, for instance, caused the
commissioning of several vessels specially employed in that
service, having on board 738 men, from the 13th of July,
1846, to the 31st March, 1847—making, in March, 1817,
4,007 men in excess. In 1847-8 the number of men paid off
*vas nearly double that of an ordinary period—namely,
15,539 ; the average of the three years preceding being 8,739.
And in the present year, from the Ist of April to the Ist of
July, 4,738 were discharged, ;instead of 2,071, the number
reduced in the corresponding quarter of the year preceding.
Yet still there was an excess of 4,146 men. In June, how-
ever, that number had been reduced to 3,900, in July to
2,812, and on the 7th of August the excess was 2,477. There
were several ships on their way home as out of commission,
labwever, and the men belonging to these—about 2,369 in
number— would reduce the excess by the latter end of Oc-
tober, or the beginning of November, to 488 men. Every
endeavour, however, should, he admitted, be made by the
Government to keep the number of men strictly within the
Parliamentary vote, and he therefore looked upon the
alteration proposed by the Committee as legitimate and
proper—viz., that the excess of men borne on the books of
the navy over that voted should be reported monthly to
Parliament, with the estimates presented by the Board of
Admiralty. It would be, in his opinion, a salutary check
upon the previous practice that obtained in that particulv
The Committee observed that net only was vote Ne:
affected by this irregularity, but that vote No. 2 we sp a r
equally affected in the same degree ; and therefore tc. foe-
port proposed the same remedy. On the supplarAitary
grant of 30,0001. in vote No. 1, for the purpose o famelio-
isting the condition of petty officers and able seamen,
4ropert expressed no opinion. The Committee pointed it
It:. tie th dimme, and that was all. But the House would
',lmes her how that vote had arisen, and what were the de-
pates that had taken place upon the subject; and also the
great desire there was on the part of all Hon. Members that
come plan should be devised which would have the effect
of keeping these gallant fellows is the service of their own
country, and preventing them from going elsewhere.
The Admiralty had endeavoured to effect that ob-
ject through this vote; and their plan was to assimi-
late the system of rewards in the navy to the good-service
warrant in the army. He (Mr. Ward) therefore implored
the House, for the sake of the public service, not to withhold
its consent to this grant. He quite agreed with the Com-
mittee that no extra clerks should be permitted without the
.sanction of the Treasury, and that the principle of extra pay,
which was even of a more demoralising tendency, should be
,regulated in the same way. The Admiralty proposed to
adopt the recommendation of the Committee, that the
whole of these establishments be revised in conjunction with
,the Treasury. He did not now attempt to say what the
strength was to be; he only intended to announce that the
departments would be revised by the Admiralty in con-
junction with the Treasury; and that except under an order
in Council neither extra clerks nor extra pay were to be
unlisi with the sanction of the Treasury, on a
written statement from that department which applied
for:these additions. Another item of increase was the
salary of the second secretary, Captain Hamilton. After
a full investigation of this subject, and a clear under-
standing that the salafy three years ago was fixed
under a misapprehension, the Admiralty had stated the
circumstances of the case in a letter to the Treasury, and
the Treasury at once sanctioned an addition of 5001. a year to
'the salary. He would say, in justice to Captain Hamilton,
that Captain Hamilton would not take advantage of this
grant from the Treasury until it had received the sanction
of the House. He conceived the House would feel they had
only done, their 'duty in thus doing justice to a deserving
public servant. He came next to the vote No. 5, which re-
ferred to the scientific blanch of the public service. There
would be found an increase in the permanent and the tem•
porary service votes. The temporary service increase arose
in consequence of the position of the Arctic expedition. When
the House recollected the number of gallant men who had
'beets out on this expedition, which had not been heard of
as° long a:period, and who were not provisioned for more
n four years, he was sure no objection would be raised to
,this vote. He felt certain the House would unanimously be
of opinion that they had only consulted the interests of science,
nurnanity, and justice, in making ample provision, through
the aid of the country, for the relief of those whose fate wai
uncertain. Up to
of
ethe present time the Admiralty had not
heard any tidingsexpedition, but he trusted at what-
ever part of the coast Sir hn Franklin might make his ap-
pearance, he would there find that a provision had been made
for his relief. Then as to the permanent provision, the
amount expended in survey s hrl been 68,0001. for the years
_1837 and 1838, and 123,0001., ol• the years 1846 and 1847.
There would be a considerable reeuction, however, this year.
su
The Admiralty conceived that the
La 70,000/. for the
purpose Would be ample, and if the prescribed that
limit for future years, it was conceivedthatsLe service would
as efficient be as well performed and made ierit as ever. The
making the Committce suggested that some mode of
Ad-
miralty charts more accessible to the public
by sale should be
adopted. This matter was under the consideration of the
Admiralty. Then with reference to the vote for the railway
and harbour department, which was attached toodtp
ofßoard
of Admiralty, as the Committee suggested a m
ing with this matter, he would not enter upon it at that
time. He might, however, remark. that it certainly
did appear oppressive on the public that three inquiries of
• the same character should be pursued by three different de-
partments. The Admiralty had, however, communicated
with the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, and ar-
rangements would no doubt be made with the two other
.departments, to ascertain if the three inquiries could not
be advantageously blended ; and when this was effected
the vote in the esasuing years would be different from
-the present vote. He came now to two not unimportant
Votes, Nos. 6 and 8, which comprehended ate Wulf/.

fact a sort of local feud had been created about it—so that it
had been found that it was impossible to arrive at the best
plan amidst the conflicting allegations which were made.
The Government had selected Mr. Rendel to go to Devon-
port, and they were then expecting from him a plan of the
best course to be pursued in completing that basin. With
regard to the works at Keyham the report had it in
contemplation that the factory and establishment should be
on the same scale as that of Woolwich, and the ma-
chinery of which would be on the same scale as to the
cost, 50,000/. The great object would be to build these
factories on a scale which would !permit of a sudden ex-
tension of their operation in case of any sudden demand
or war. If there were not accommodation for con-
structing on immediate pressure they would be nearly useless.
The Committee then went on to say that there were works
then proposed for the first time from which they should re-
commend Parliament to withhold its sanction ; and they re-
ferred to the expense already incurred in the construction of
the large basin at Portsmouth. They stated that it was not
advisable that any further expense should be incurred in this
work after a million and a quarter had lately beers sunk in a
similar one. It would be the height of folly and extrava-
gance—an extraordinary instance of fascination scarcely ever
seen, to allow the 400,0001. already spent to be sunk, without
taking measures to render it available. The Committee itself
was not far from the same opinion, for so it was impressed with
the necessity of continuing these works, that on a division of
its members only two were found to recommend that the
400,0001. should be regarded as thrown away. The Govern-
ment were quite willing to act upon the report of the Com.
mittee, so far as to suspend the commencement of any further
works in the present year, and up to the present time they
had laid before Parliament the full plans and entire costs of
works now being built on a deeper and larger scale, and those
they submitted to the House for its sanction. He would,
however, point out to the House that the Government were
subject to this difficulty—that they were engaged to con-
tractors, to a large amount. Mr. Baker had in his posses-
sion a letter from the Board of Admiralty, written in 1844,
pledging themselves to spend 209,0004 in the present
year. The Board had succeeded in reducing the amount
to be spent to 130,0001. They must, however, pay
the contractor for the materials at present on the
ground, and during the recess the Board would consider
the whole question, and would endeavour, in conjunc-
tion with the contractors, to spread the items over a large
number of years, and at present they would refrain from
erecting any factory building at all, except on a very mode-
rate scale. The report next alluded to the works at Haulbow-
line. . The Admiralty was at present in possession of the
land upon which the proposed tank was to be built, but net
of the land for the landing-pier; so that they could not give
any return for the cost et that. Application had been made
to Lord Middleton to transfer the ground for that purpose
to the Admiralty, but in consequence of some defect in the
title it was not possible to do so. The state of the case was,
the Government :had incurred censure for ,having made a
good bargain, and it was impossible to say when the
landing-pier would be constructed. The Committee
next recommended that the sum of 20,0001., proposed
in the estimates for the new barracks at Gos-
port, should not be granted during the present year. That
was a decision in which he certainly could not concur, inas-
much as the exigency for these barracks was forced upon
them by another department, and their removal was required
by the public service. It was not of their seeking, but the
change gave opportunity for an excellent and advantageous
arrangement for the public. The barracks at Portsmouth
were in a state to require large and extensive repairs in
the course of a few years. The old barracks gave accomo-
dation to a number of men which the proposed ones would
better accommodate, and would certainly be one of the
best establishments of the kind which the country had.
He impressed on the House the necessity of granting this
20,000 k, with the understanding that the estimate for the
expenses should not be granted before the estimate had
been very carefully gone into. The works were already in
progress, and great inconvenience would arise from stopping
them. There was another recommendation with regard to
Bermuda—that of reducing the sum of 16,5001., to be
granted for the construction of works there, to 10,0001. The
reduction was recommended on the ground that more con-
vict labour could be employed. It was not, however, possible
to employ convict labour alone ; and, besides that, the
storehouses were to have- fro.' roofs, which were ready to
be sent out. He hoped that no impediment would be
thrown in the way of completing these works. Besides
these particulars there was a general recommendation of the
Committee that the Admiralty should never in future enter
upon any new work unless they first submitted it to arid
obtained the approval of the Treasury. That suggestion
they were quite ready to adopt. Timis very nearly com-
pleted the votes in which the naval service was ex-
clusively concerned ; but he should make a few
observations upon vote No. 13, with reference to the
expense incurred in drilling the coast-guard. That item
they had reduced from 16,0001. to 5,0001.; and he should
remind the House that although this expense had been
incurred, that this was an arm of the service which had dis-
tinguished itself, and had been proved to be in every way
most efficient. In the case of the late apprehended outbreak
in Ireland, 350 of the coast-guard volunteed their services.
These were picked men, and the Government might in case
of necessity have obtained double the.number. The men
were all willing, and they appeared to have no hesitation,
with one solitary exception, in returning to their old profes-
sion. He then came to the question upon which the Commit-
tee and the Admiralty were deeply and irreparably at issue.
This was the question which occurred under vote No. 14,
and related to the question of promotions. The Committee
had proposed to the Admiralty that the Admirals' list—fixed
20 years ago at 150, should be reduced permanently to 100,
and that that reduction should be effected by stopping the
promotion through all ranks of the navy by only raising one
captain to the captains' list for every three vacancies, and
by stopping promotion in a corresponding degree in all the
lower ranks. This decision was come to in the Committee
by a bare majority of the Members. There were some
curious circumstances connected with it, but of that, per-
haps, they had no right to speak in that House. He would
say that he hoped some of the Hon. Members had seen the
many difficulties which were caused by this decision, and
that they would ultimately give their votes for some other
course. In all the preliminary remarks of the Committee
there was great propriety and delicacy, and the considera-
tion which ought, to be maintained in deciding a question of
this nature. The Committee stated that it entertained a
deep interest and regard for the feelings of those gallant
officers engaged in the navy; in fact it was impossible to
show more delicacy of feeling than that shown by the
Committee in consulting on a matter affecting the in
terests of those gallant officers, but which they
thought might be altered with greater advantages
to the public. The Government did not contend for the
necessity of having an Admiral's list of 150; they
would be glad of a list of 100 instead. And it was quite
true that the number was not required, as they never had
that number employed in their greatest naval wars. It
was equally true, however, that the condition on which a
man went into the navy was that he should rise to a flag in
due course of promotion, and not be cheated out of it; and
he had a double right at present to form those expectations,
as the whole question of retirement in the navy had been
twice under the consideration of the House during the last
four years; and it was twice settled, by the assent of two
Governments, without a division in the House of Commons.
The present system bad been proposed and carried for the
express purpose of offering an honourable retirement to
those captains whose age was too great to enable them to
remain in effective service, and to whom their country
offered the rank of retired rear-admiral, instead of retain-
ing them on the active list. The House of ;Commons voted
30,000/. yearly for that purpose ; and what would be the
effect of the recommendation of the Committee? It would
throw back every man three years, and its opera-
tion was such that they would cheat themselves of
the very consideration they expected with regard to the
30,0001., for they were bound to pay it for the lives of the
men already promoted. By the present system they would
in the course of a year have admirals of 55 and 54, instead of
men of the age of 70 and upwards ; and he entreated the
Rouse to continue the grant, and to pause before it com-
mitted an act injurious to the service and unjust to its officers.
It would throw back the hopes of many a gallant fellow who
looked to the reward due to many years of arduous service.
And he would venture to believe that the House would not
entertain such a crude and uneconomical proposition. But
how was it that the Committee proposed to arrive at the
result ? They propose to take off 30 yellow admirals, and
to form a separate list, with only 112 remaining, from which
also they must strike off 12 in order to make up the reduc-
tion contemplated. But supposing that to be done, what
were they to do with the yellow captains who were serv-
ing up to their flags, and were close upon their time ?
They must be put upon the same narrow list.
He could say nothing but to recommend to the attention
of the House, that it it assented to this proposition it
would assent to one which would disgust a gallant
service, and break an arrangement to which only two years
before it had given its assent, and sanctioned liSs the unop-
posed authority of two Governments, after giving it a
grave consideration. The Committee also assumed that the
subordinate ranks were only promoted by death-vacancies;
but if that were so it would not be worth the while of any
man of spirit to enter the service whilst he had a shilling
left to lire upon. It was proposed to do away with brevets,
but upon the understanding that there should be two in
three in the ordinary course of promotion ; and how could
they assent to a promotion of one in three—to the plan as
stated by the Committee? The Admiralty could not give its
consent, and they called on the House to confirm their de-
cision. The only part of the recommendation in which the
Admiralty did concur was
,the limitation of first entries.
They agreed that the limitation of first entries was the key-
'stone to all substantial eipnomr—they not permitting so
great a number of cadets'in the service. He must also
remind the House that the half-pay lists of the army and
navy were differently arranged. The navy had not that
resource which was possessed by the army of disposing of
their commissions by purchase. When a man was once on
the half-pay list of the navy he was therefor life, and there
were no means given to him of changing his condition by dis-
posing of his commission on terms of advantage to himself;
but if they looked at the payments now made to general offs-
. tern and senior captains, they would find. in the army that
the pay of the general officers and colonels of regiments
amounted in the whole to 154,000/. The half-pay of general
officers unattached was 76,0001., making together 230,000!.
The half-pay to lieutenant-colonels ,and colonels being
83,6f101., made a payment to generals and colonels in the army
of 313,6001. The total amount of full and half-pay of admi-
rals and nag-officers in the navy was 231,5041.; so that this
was not an overpaid profession. It was indeed one in
which those few great prizes were looked to by
those gallant officers who entered the service. Then
another recommendation of the Committee was the
freight of ships for the conveyance of convicts, or the
services performed in the packet service that should
not appear in the navy estimates, but be made matter
of account elsewhere. At present the public saw one million
Gtsmhmoea
vant
edl tabhta t e
nh
ta d a
dn tht
ti na
dg t t
that
at
charged in the navy estimates, and it was now considered
do
it withw o
ut
lhde
bneaydaels
irsae
bryl
ei c
tet;
adopt The
this su gimogneossutnei oft ne
td .h
te
cIo
3013 em.
rnh
Oai
tdft
atne
,hoews
e gt which,ls:en eAt
adtkhmi rniorgua
Admiralty
thhye
weremt h
large
;e oa mn
willingd-
tt oh
eayd ot ph to
u2g9,1
let dt
thheethought t
oh ed hadss
engt i
fromgtohoed
sreasonsi
own whenf
thattit Cm e
hoebme
believed eed
thele hadnow
I navy
was i
nonlyt o
most
state to
efficient
ettha et e I; I o us
thate
all our foreign stations were adequately provided for ; and
than
homean
waswe required.ha d
a
hwhich,
ehno wmeavdeer, ,of wasa
mostnot laur gs
eer
ful character as regarded the ships in ordinary, and guardships
and the steam reserve ships. If, indeed, the House wished for
an instance of the value of the steam reserve, they could not
have a better proof of how easily available it might be made
than what had occurred last week. Last week there was
reason to believe that an additional naval force might be
required in Ireland. On the 27th of July orders were given
at the Admiralty, at one o'clock, for the immediate equip-
ment of four vessels of the steam reserve. On the 28th o
July, at ten o'clock in the morning, two of those vessels were
on their way to Spithead, manned, armed, provisioned, and
furnished with everything except their gunpowder; they
took in their powder at three in the afternoon, they sailed
an hour afterwards to Devonport, where they took in the 35th
instancenab le
us o f
to the
the
in which l
Regiment, and they landed that regiment on the 30th in
D u
asa
ne
whole power of the empire to bear on any particular point.
bi .—(
our lI ear,
steam h e a r. )
would In'
The only certain way of having a force constantly available,
which he hoped would be
was in the shops of a steam reserve,

established at Devonport. The system was begun with the
Board to which his Hon. Friend was attached, and it, had been
carried out by the present Government. The steam reserve
would be our great security, if, unhappily, we should be in-
volved in hostilities with any foreign country. That steam
reserve, the House must understand, cost. nothing. The
steamers were in preparation, with an organization under
Captain Austin—the whole establishment was not more than
270 men—and yet they could have six of these vessels made
available within twelve hours; and six more as soon as they
could put men on board of them. He thought that after
stating that the Admiralty were ready to adopt 29 out oft he
33 recommendations of the Committee, he need not• give
another pledge of the earnest desire of the Admiralty to carry
out legitimate economy; but in stating the desire to pursue
economy, he did not propose, nor did he wish the Committee
to imagine, that the Government would do anything to
cripple or impair our most legitimate sources of power in case
of foreign aggression. The Admiralty wished to be prepared
with ample means, not with a view to purposes of hostility to
any party, but •to resist aggression from whatever quarter it
might coins. He hoped that the votes which he was about
to put would meet with the approbation of the House.
The first vote proposed w. s a sum of 293,560 i. to make
up the sum of 1,393,5061. for the wages of seamen and
marines. _ _ _

Mr. HUME said he had sat on many Committees, but he
must say that he had never sat on any Committee where he
more approved of the conduct of the Chairman than he did
of the conduct of the Noble Lord who presided over the
Committee on the navy estimates, whose continuous and pa-
tient application under every occurrence that took place de-
served from him (Mr. Hume), at least, the highest eppro-
bation.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to say of the Committee
also, whose conduct had been attacked by a Gallant Ad-
miral, that, differing in several important points from them,
he had never seen a Committee who had more fairly weighed
and inquired into the various matters that came under their
consideration before corning to a decision than that Com-
mittee did.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think them liable,
therefore, teethe charges which had been made against them
on that head.—(Hear, hear.) The Committee had not
Proceeded to the length which he wished and which he
proposed to them; but he had no right to complain; he
submitted his views to them, and when those were not adopted
he yielded to their decision, as he always did when he
found himself in a minority.—(Hear, hear.) He came thee
to the question, how far the Committee had conducted
their business with advantage to the country or not—and
he feared he could not express a very favourable opinion
on that point. They had hit a few blots, but they might
have proceeded much further than they had done. The
Chairman of the Committee stated at the outset that he did
not wish them to lose time in finding out what mischiefs
had taken place from want of system and mismanagement ;
but that the object they should have in view should be to
correct, as far as possible, the evils that existed, and point
out how improvement could be effected in future. He there-
fore could not allow his Hon. Friend (Mr. Ward) to take
credit for the fact, or allow the country-to believe, that no
mismanagement was discovered, or could be discovered. He
believed, from what had come to his knowledge, that the
waste of public money, in consequence of the waste of ma-
terial and experiments in the construction of ships during the
last fifteen years, had been enormous; and the necessity for
a change and for additional checks in respect to these matters
was admitted in every arrangement that was now making.
The Hon. Member had concluded his speech by saying that
the navy was in a most efficient state. If that was the case
—which he did not doubt—he wished to know if it was not
in such a state as to afford a reduction of expense? He
agreed with the Hon. Gentleman that the service should not
be crippled nor impaired;, but the question was, what was
necessary for the service- of the country, and whether the
aggregate amount of expense was properly proportioned? In
the first place, it was important to settle the number of men
that was requisite to be maintained—for the whole report
proceeded upon the assumption that unless they fixed a
limit to the number of men in the first instance, there was
no limit to the expense of stores. On the 20th of March
last, he proposed that the number of men should be reduced
from 43,000 to 36,000—being 11,003 more than at a former
time when the navy was declared to be equally efficient; but
only 38 Members out of a House of 385 agreed to effect that
reductioe.—(Hear, hear.) His Honourable Friend said that
that question having been decided by the House he did not
think it. necessary to enter into it ; but had no circumstances
occurred in Europe since that period to induce a reduction ?
At the present moment when the rest of Europe were occu-
pied with their own affairs and not seeking to meddle with
us, was this a time to increase the expense of the navy ? In
the years 1833-1-5 and 6 the average slumber of men was
27,C00 and the expense of supporting them 4,630,6434 In
the years 1845-6-7 and 8 the number of men was 40,000, and
the expense 7,667,2954 ; while for the years 1848-9
the number of men voted was 43,000, and the es
['mated expense 7,951,8421., being an excess o'
3,517,059/. over the estimates of 1835-6.—(Hear, hear.)
His lion. Friend had referred to the number and efficiency
of the steamers; but since they had so many steamers why
should they not have fewer ships? Was no reduction to be
made on that score ? (Hear, hear.) The Government was
keeping up a naval establishment much beyond what the
purposes of the country required, and it was the duty of the
Executive to ascertain what reductions ought to be made.
It was not in the power of any Committee to point out the
details wherein a saving might be effected, and he at once
admitted that there was not a single vote inquired into by
the Committee with which they had done more than merely
skimmed the surface. The Committee had in one respect
done good service in pointing out the principles upon which
the naval department should be conducted, at the same time
leaving it to the Government to introduce those checks and
improvements which would be advantageous to the country.
The great increase in the number of men and number
of ships—and which had occasioned an expense of
3,500,0001. for this year beyond the average of the esti-
mates for the years 1834, 1835, and 1836—was not to be
accounted for by the external relations of the country,
for our colonies had not been attacked, nor our own
shores invaded, and the only possible ground for such an in-
crease appeared to him to be that system of political interfe •
rence with the affairs of other nations which had been too
much pursued by this country. How were our ships sta-
tioned ? If they went hack to the year 1838 they would find
Sir G. Cockburn stating that all the force that was required
to protect British ecumiiereis in the Pftediterremorurm ut
ships, one large frigate and three small ones; " but," said that
Gallant Admiral, " I do not give that evidence in allusion to
the political state of affairs, I speak only of what is necessary
to protect our commercial interests." Now, there was a re-
turn on the table made up to 1842, which showed that there
were 51 pennants in the Mediterranean, and the number of
men employed was 17,500 ; while in 1792, the whole num-
ber of seamen and marines in the British navy amounted only
to 16,000 men. Then look at the force which the Govern-
, inert obstinately persevered in keeping on the western coast
of Afri,:a, consisting of no less than 28 ships. The Corn-
mittee did not thoroughly investigate this matter in
„ conse-
nence of a Special Committee having been appointed to
inquirel- into it. They, however, went far enough to show
that no good bad been done by our interference; but that
mischief had arisen from it. In 1847, no less than 43 ships
were express) v employed in a fruitless endeavour to suppress
the slave trade ; 23 off the western coast of Africa, 11 at
the Cape, and some half-doaen ships on the south-east coast
of America, where they were interfering with other people's
affairs. It was by measuressuch as these that the aggregate
expense of our establishment was occasioned, and his Hon.
Friend held out no hope that any reductions would be
effected in this enormous expenditure. The labour of the
Committee, therefore. would be of very little use sinless the
House should interfere and stop the supplies.. There ap-
peared to him to be no other means by which the Govern-
ment could be induced to adopt any measures of economy.
His Honourable Friend had said that there were only
fifty sail of the line, but they were not manned. The ships
could not be brought into use, and were kept merely to
be looked at. Many of our largest ships had never been
in the water, but had literally rotted on the slips. His
Hon. Friend had declared that the Government would not
agree to the recommendation of the Committee with reference
to the half-pay, and to the number of admirals that were
at present in the service. Upon that question he (Mr.
Hume) should certainly take the sense of the House. Only
13 admirals were actively employed, it was therefore mon•
strous that so large an establishment as 100 flag officers
should be kept up. He altogether disagreed with the
reasons which his Honourable Friend had assigned for main-
taining the establishment at that rate. His Hon. Friend
said that there were a great many young men growing up in
the naval service, all cf whom were looking anxiously for-
ward to obtaining a flag. What would be the state of
things if the country were called upon to maintain a plura-
lity of Lord Chancellors, in order that the expectations of all
the young hamsters
mightwho wenroetbe
growingdisapuppoainntdedas?—pi(riHngeatro holdea r , and the
,
Or why not (as an Honourable Friend
make provision that
every clergyman who entered the Church should ultimately-
become
ad
a Bishop?--( near, hear," and laughter.) It would
behindh
h suggested)
be just as reasonsible as to adopt the system supported by
his Hon. Friend. 'A comparison had been drawn by his
Hon. Friend between the army and the navy. A similar
comparison was drawn by the 'Committee of 1840; and if
anything more than another ought to induce the Govern-
nmseNnyt tiot mwasks e
tah
ec h
raensguel t in w
ceh Systemc
oomf ppa
rni)smu
no t i
po
rne
sienn
ttehde
His Hon. Friend had compared the number of admirals in
the navy with the number of generals in the army, but had
sehl)driertsliethafauctotehraet
wtehreereofwesraeiluforsu; tTimoems
atkhee
numbr
he
alleorwoefd
the expense of
the comparison
paying
fir
one,t iiemt,he number
oughtob
be multiplied
flagf officebrys, and
four.
He admitted that the increase of generals and staff-officers
in fhe 'army was far beyond what the service of the country
requirql as was the number of admirals ; and if the Govern-
ment cibted on a sand principle they would put an end to",
inad
nt
thi
raatl eas
np
tele tp dr
oi ffp eo rs ee cal f
thatem tt
he
cthoewsnylsittetume.i.o Iretaining
folroeo
number should be only 75.—( Hear.) What had been the,
se:rvicea of *the naval of ? He had, in anticipation of
some such comparison being made as that which had been
instituted by his Hon. Friend, extracted a passage from the
.c6tfirnissionera' report in 1840 relating,tarthat subject, and he
puioctduor4eb otft ,
who
oir ; ser-
vices.
st.e
was So r riy:fiteor
es
weresay it presented
of
f anxious to be, on active service, but who were unable to ob-
tain appointments. They were laid on the shelf, ant at last
became old men and until for service. He found by a com-
parison of the services of the naval and military officers,. as
t ha ovs
e e ryofficers, pooh
reported by the Commissioners for inquiry in 1840, the ftfi
lowing results :

NAVY.

Yrs. llths. Wks.

83 Flag Officers, promoted by three
brevets.—Av'erage service l7 4 0
Average half-pay
683 Captains.—Average service 9 10 0
Average half-pay
318 captains had never served a day as captains, and had
been promoted and then laid on the shelf, and 63 had served
less than one year.
Yrs. Mths. Wks.
807 Commandets.—Average service
Average half-pay
is —Average service
Average half-pay
The average service as commanders only was less than three,
years; 492 had never served as commanders, and 102 less
than one year. But all this had nottting.to do with the war.
promotions. These had been promOtbd since. At the close
of the war 1,000 midshipmen and triatSs were promoted in
order to wind up and close the serviOe." That was to be a
full and complete settlement of the lAte war. But there had
been a great deal more promotion since then than during
the war.

2,879 Lieutenant

ARMY.

Trs. Mths. Wks:
23 Major-Generals,—Average service ... 27 0 0 •
Average half-pay 11 0 • 0
254 Lieut. -Colonels.--Average service ... 28 6 0
Average half-pay 2 0 0
226 Majors.—Average service ... .- 24 3 0
:.... 161 5-913th.
0
1,089 Captains.—veArag.ie;ae hgale fs-epravic. e
Ailerage half-pay .... 1 8- l3th.
Thum, on comparing he services of officers of corresponding
rank in the army an -navy, it appeared that the generals had
served ten years lon ' ffi
r on full pay than the flag ocers ; the
id
lieutenant-colonels 1 served 18 years and a half longer (or
nearly three times t e period) on full pay than the (navy)
captains ; the majors had served sixteen years and a half (or
Above three times) longer on full pay than the commanders;

the captains had served 12 years (or four times the period on
full pay) longer than the (navy) lieutenants; and yet the
majority ut the above military officers purchased their com-
missions, which the officers in the sister service did not.
Now, the country ought only to pay for services perform,el.
'V here should be no system of promotion which allowed men
to be put upon half-pay after three or four years' service.
Wby not adopt the French system ? In their navy the same
rule applied to the officers as attached to the privates. They
had quarters, thirds, half-par, and full pay, applying both to
officers and men; and why sliould it be otherwise in this coun-
try ? He took his Hon. Friend's observations in the spirit
in which they were intended, and which, no doubt, were
:neant for the benefit of the service; but what, he wished
was, that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
should consider the aggregate amount of the charge en the
public, and whether the Noble Lord was not exaggerating
the necessity of keeping up so large an establishment as
;hey had been maintaining for the last few years. He
would not trouble the House with any remark upon his old
and favourite topic—the public establishments of the
year 1792—(Laughter)—but it was satisfactory for him to
observe that the Committees of 1816, 1817, 1819, and 1838
all referred to that year as a standard of comparison with
• regard to the permanent expenses of the different de-
partments in the state. One cause for the increase of the
estimates beyond their amount in 1792 was the great rise
which took place in the price of provisions, particularly in
the year 1800. That indeed was the only reason why the
salaries of public men were increased. At that period it
was urged that by reason of the corn-laws provisions were dear,
and it was necessary to make proportionate allowances in the
public charges ; but he might remind the Committee that
theicorn-laws were now about to terminate, and he thought
the time would soon come when it would become the duty
of the Minister to review the salaries of all persons receiving
money from the public purse—from the highest to the lowest
,Ricers in the State, in order that he might reduce them
proportionately to the !:,reduced price of provisions, and
of almost every article in the country. Several succes-
sive Select Committees had recommended greater economy
in the naval expenditure, but had the Government acted
on those recommendations? No; they raised every shil-
ling they could, and spent every shilling they could
raise, instead of following the advice of the Select Commit-
tee in 1819, to make every possible reduction during
peace, in order to be better prepared for the exigency
of war.—(Hear). lie believed that the people of this coun-
try were sound at heart, and were to be depended on, but
let not the Government crush them by taxation, and by the
expense of keeping up useless establishments which were
not wanted. Let them withdraw their squadron from the
coast of Africa, where they were adding greater horrors to
the already sufficient horrors of the slave trade. There was
one point to which he had before adverted, namely the
waste of public money in useless salutes.—( Hear, and a
laugh.) He found that 501. was thrown away in one day
in this way, and that which would relieve all the charities
in the country was wasted in must unnecessary salutes of
powder. It was childish in the highest degree to blaze away
powder in compliment to officers of rank.—(A laugh, and
hear, hear.) The state of the medical profession in the nary
also required the attention of the House. In 1840 the Select
Committee which sat then called the attention of the
Admiralty to the condition and prospects of this
class, which they stated were not such as to afford due
encouragement to these meritorious officers. Hence
arose the difficulty which was at present felt of
getting a supply of these officers. It was a most ex-
traordinary fact, that while there was not an appointment
to any rank in the dockyards for which there were not hun-
(reds and thousands of applicants, there were no candidates
for the post of medical assistants in the navy. These officers
complained that they were not placed upon ward-room rank
with the ocher officers of her Majesty's ships, and that they
were not allowed to mess and berth with other gentlemen of
heir own education and rank in society. Was theme not
something wrong when in every union workhouse in the
country there were dozens of medical men anxious to fill
every vacancy, and yet that in her Majesty's navy assistant_
surgeons could not be got? The system adopted of building
ships in the Royal Navy was most extravagant, and he hoped
the Government would attend to the opinion of the witnesses
who had stated to the Committee that the Government, in-
stead of increasing their establishment in every emergency,
should calculate what the wants of the service were likely to
be, should keep the number of Men proportioned thereto, and
then, if an emergency should arise, there were plenty of pri-
vate dockyards where they could obtain assistance. He did
not wish to see the repairs of her Majesty's ships given to
private dockyards, but he believed it to be possible to have
good a ship built by contract as in the Government yards.
And why not? The Government surveyors could lay down
the lines, they could appoint their officers to inspect the
timber used, and to see the work performed. By employing
the private yards on an emergency the Government could
keep their establishments within a limited fixed scale. They
ought, indeed, to be kept something below the scale, because
there were in the country such large yards and such excel-
sent shipbuilders. These naval estimates of 8,000,0001.
'night be reduced one• half their amount, but the Govern-
ment gave the House no a'surance of reduction. The state
of Europe and of the world warranted such reduction, and
he demanded it on behalf of those who already laboured
under such heavy loads of taxation. If the Government
were determined to keep the country down by military force,
would twice as many troops add to their security? The
country wanted an efficient and an economical Government,
one which would not keep down the people by military
force. If there were wisdom in the Cabinet, its members, looking
to the present aspect of affairs, would say that there ought
to be peace; and if they took their measures accordingly
they would strengthen the present Government, which he
wished to see preserved.

Admiral GORDON regretted that the Government had
consented to refer the naval estimates of the current year to
a Committee of the House, because it was a precedent which
he feared might be injurious to the public service. The re-
sponsibility of proposing the naval estimates properly rested
with the Government, and they were expected to be ready
to support and defend these estimates. With regard to the
labours of the Committee although there were some of their
recommendations in which he could not concur, still he was
bound to say, that upon the whole they had collected a vast
deal of very useful information—(Hear, hear)—which would
prove very useful hereafter. He agreed generally with the
cltereLary of the .A.thnlralty noun those puhns On winen he
proposed to concur with or dissent from the recommendations
of the Committee, some of which the Government would do
wisely not to adopt without first consulting the opinions of
competent professional persons.
Captain BERKELEY said, there were one or two state-
ments made by the Hon. Member for Montrose in which he
could not concur, and which a few of those figures of which
the Hon. Member was so fond would show to be erroneous.
With regard to the assistant-surgeons of her Majesty's navy,
he thought it was much better left to the Executive and to
the Admiralty to say in what part of the ship these officers
should continue to be placed, than to leave such questions
to such a body as even the House of Commons. The
lion. Member said there was not one candidate for the
situation of assistant-surgeon in the navy. But it was
necessary, in the first place, to state that, in conse-
quence of the general promotion in 1845-6, there were 71
surgeons promoted. To fill those vacancies no less than 100
assistant-surgeons offered themselves, and were now on the
lists. - (Hear.) And he had the pleasure of informing the
Hon. Member, that the assistant-surgeons entered tsince
1847-8 were 49, the average promotions of surgeons 'in the
navy being 12 in the year. If the Hon. Member complained
that the promotion was so slow, he must remember that
this was one of the consequences of a time of peace. The
lion. Member stated, that there was not one assistant-sur-
geon to be had • but, he knew a gentleman who lately wrote
to a friend in the north to ask whether any assistant-sur-
geons could be procured there, and limiting his friend to
engage a number not greater than 10; the gentleman so
addressed shortly afterwards wrote to say that he had got
five, that ether business had occurred to prevent his engag-
ing a greater number, but that he had no doubt he could
get as many assistant-surgeons for her Majesty's navy as he
pleased. So much for the Hon. Member's statement that
assistant-surgeons would not enter into the navy.—( Hear,
hear.) The Honourable Member had said that if
we had 50 sail of the line we could not man
them. He would admit that we had not an or-
ganized force to man that number of ships, but it must be
remembered that at the close of the war we had 141 ships of
the line fully manned, and if the same demand should
arise be did not see why they should not be able to man a
fleet now as well as then.—(Cheers.) At the close of the
war there were no less than 728 ships commissioned by cap-
tains who were then placed on half-pay. Those 728 captains
were independent of commanders and lieutenants. Alto-
gether there were about 1,200 sail in commission at the end
of the war, and how could it be helped that there should be'
at present a great number of those officers upon half-pay ?
(Hear, hear.) There were 728 captains then afloat, while at
the present moment the whole of their fleet commissioned by
post-captains, as thy were then called, did not amount to
store than fifty.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME explained. His statement of the scarcity of
candidates for assistant-surgeons in the navy was derived
from Sir W. Burnett, Medical Director-General of the Navy.
Mr. COBDEN saidike wished to snake a few general ob-
servations on the question before the House. The Com-
mittee on which he had sat had been precluded from enter-
taining the question what should be the amount of our naval
force. They were told that that was a question which
should be left to the responsible advisers of the Crown, and
that it was for the House to decide whether or not the force
proposed should be maintained. NOW, they all knew that
any question of that sort brought before the House because a
question of confidence in the
Government. Before their
meeting again next February, if, indeed, they did not as-
ssemble sooner, the amount of the naval force for the ensuing
;fir-would be considered, and he took it for granted, what-
:ever it might be, that-the Howie Would agree to it. lie
wished, however, to offer one or two observations, as the re-
sult of his experience n the Committee, as to the amount of
force we should maintain, and in doing so he did not wish to
pass censure on env, Governenerit,"ps4 dr present. 'lt had
been stated by.the'lion. ,Secretary to the Admiralty that the
navy ekirrrates had been increasing for -the last ten years;
that no diviSion had evebu'ilt taken againatthe increase; and
he took fair ground ivhen, he said that the,..Govarnpsentyvas
notlo be blamed, atiti,that the representativeS of the people
alone vere to be blamed for having consented to the increase.
The increase wkiiilh bad taken place in our naval armaments
from time to time had been justified on the ground that it
was necessary ter us to keep pace with other countries, who
had also increased their forces. Now, he thought the Com-
mittee would agree with him, the question being one of re-
lative forces, that if other countries, as well as this, adopted
-a. different policy—if instead of augmenting each its forces,
and running a race of rivalry—if they could be brought to
agree that there should be no comparative increase of force—
that The object which he and his friends sought for could be
gaiped, and yet each country would stand in the same rela-
tive-position that it did at present. The great increase which
had taken place lately in our navy estimates had been for
steam
.forces. He did not think the Committee had fully
appreciated the vast amount of expenditure incurred for
the steam navy. He thought the Hon. Secretary to the
Admiralty would admit that he did not exaggerate when
he said that at this moment there were built, building,
or about to be built, a steam navy equal to 100 vessels,
averaging 1,000 tons each ; and in addition to these sixty
or seventy smaller steamers of different denominations.
He had taken some pains to engage the assistance of practical
and experienced men on the subject of the estimates and cost
of the vast armament which this country was keeping up,
and he would give them the result of his investigations. He
found that we had in war-steamers a horse power amounting
to 32,000. He would take the tonnage at 100,000. Now,
from the evidence which was given before the Committee, it
would appear that the cost of these vessels, upon the above
calculation of tonnage and horse power of machinery, would
amount to no less than 5,000,000/. sterling. Then there were
smaller vessels to the extent of about 10,000 horse, the cost
of which he would estimate at 1,000,000/., making in all, for
the cost of our steam navy, no less a suns than 6,000,0001.
Could the Committee believe the fact that there was ex-
pended on our steam navy a largeramount than was sunk in
the entire number of steamers engaged in our merchant ser-
vice, whether in the coasting or foreign trade?—(Hear, hear.)
Yet such was the fact. The' Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
opposite (Admiral Bowles) seemed to doubt the facts; but
he could assure him it was so. There was more expended
on our steam navy, more, than the entire capital sunk in all
the merchant steamers of this country put together.—( Hear.)
He perceivtid also that the Right lion. Baronet the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer appeared not to credit the fact—
neither could the country, perhaps; but, nevertheless, the

.h,........------henthetethetheeetee-eheatehe eteeteeeeneeeeete ~,,eeeeen.
case was as he had stated.—(Hear.) Considering the suer- • those ruatters.,. and in that popular voice he saw:
mous expense to the country which had accrued from this a barrier agaii.st those wars which had their origin .
source, be was disposed to say that it would have been a in the ambition of crowned heads and the quarrels of
blcssin to this county if steam navigation had never been dynaStic intriguers. He believed it would at
present be
invented. —( Oh, oh, and hear.) He repeated what he had ! most dillicult to induce nations to to war with each
said, that it would b,; so if we were to go on wit;i the race we i other; but, if they should go to war, it was clear that a
were now running.—(Hoar, hear ) If they were to keep up i victorious country wouid only have its strength impaired by
such a large steam navy to protect their merchant navy, territorial aggrandisement. Let the nations of Europe re-
what advantage were they deriving from it ? • He cuuk.l trace their steps, and begin at length a process of disarming.
prove that it was the same in tether countries. He could In this country, and every other country, was there not a
prove that the war-steamers of France cost more than the great necessity for reducing the national expenditure, which
merchant navy; and that the same was the case with re- was at present weighing down the people? How prophetic
spect, to Sardinia, to Denmark, Russia, and Austria. was the observation of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member
Now, if all the countries in Europe had been running that for Tamwortb, that there was more danger to be appre-
absurd race of expenditure, was there any one that would hended from a system of oppressive taxation than from any
not agree with him in, the opinion that it was high time to foreign invasions which was to he repelled by armaments.
draw public attention to the subject, in order that this The Governments of the Continent had found that arms-
enormous expenditure in war-steamers might be reduced ? ments were no source of strength in the midst of the discon-
( Blear, bear.) Ile would mention another fact on this point, tent created by the excessive taxation of the people.—(Hear.)
and affirm that we had as large an amount of money invested Were we not at present pursuing a course which, as private
in steam docks and other public establishments for the re- individual', or as members of any municipality, we should
pair of steam-ships, as was employed in all the private yards be ashamed to pursue? We were going on with our ex-
engaged in the building of merchant ships. He had taken penditure while we had an acknowledged deficit of
some pains to satisfy himself of the truth of that fact. Now, 1,700,0001. Now, that was the course which nations always
there was expended, or engaged to be expended, the an- ran when in the headlong career of ruin. If they did not
nexed sums at the following places: —At Woolwich, reduce their armaments they could aford no relief to the
150,0001.; at Portsmouth, 250,000!. ;at liey,hatn, 1,250,0001. people. Let them reduce their naval expenditure by
—making a total for the provision of the repair of , 1,000,000/., and they could take off half the tea duty, and
steam-ships of war of not less than 1,625,000 e, and that that would be the best way to increase our trade with
was a larger amount of capital than was expended on China. Ile believe I that this was the time for the English
all the private shipbuilding yards on the Clyde, Government to endeavour to induce foreign countries to
the Thames, or elsewhere, for the construction of retrace their steps with us, in order that a reduction might
merchant vessels. Yet all that was done in those be made in their and our expenditure. He believed that
Government establishments was the making and repairing France was prepared to enter on such a course; but in of boilers. What had been the cause, he would ask, or how any case he should wish that we would set other nations
was it that this enormous increase in our expenditure had an example of prudence and economy, anti he was sure that
taken place? It had been caused by a panic, by the fear that example would be generally followed. The fact was,
of an invasion by other countries. Ile would say a word or that France had always set such an example. Having
two on that point, and he begged to observe that lie did not found it stated in the public journals that the French Go-
wish to make the slightest remark which would raise an an- verntnent proposed to effect a reduction of 30,000,000 f. in
tagonistic spirit on the part of professional men ; but he their naval expenditure, he had written to a friend of his, a
should say that amongst the naval and military gentlemen member of the National Assembly, to ascertain whether or
examined before the Committee, there appeared to be a riot that statement was correct; and the answer he had re-
strong bias in favour of increased and enlarged armaments. ceived was that M. Goadchaux, who was not any more' thin
—(Hear, hear.) Amongst those who had given evidence our own Chancellor of the Exchequer encumbered with
with respect to their opinion of the necessity for this in. riches, had issued a circular to all the Government depart-
creased expenditure, and this preparation for hostilities, had ments, stating the reductions which would be neces•
been Sir Thomas Hastings. The Honourable Member sary in the year 1849, in order to enable hint to make the.
here referred at some length to the evidence of this officer income of the country equal to its expenditure; and his cir-
given before the Committee. In one part of the evidence it cular to the Minister of Marine required a reduction of
lead been stated, that for the purpose of protecting Ports- 30,000 000 f., which reduction could only be effected by a
mouth from an assumed invasion eight line-of-battle ships diminution of the French naval force, or rather, by abandon-
should be made screw steamers. But the result of his recom- ing the increased armaments on which the Government had
mendation had been that only one, namely, the Blenheim, previously resolved, as no alteration could be made in the
had been so completed. This suggestion had been caused wages of the men employed, or in the contracts that might
by the supposition that France was preparing an increased be entered into. He should glory in finding that our Go-
naval armament, which after all had turned out a false alarm vernment had set to the whole civilised world the example
Then, again, with respect to steam dockyards, the same of reducing its armaments. But we could not set that ex. Gallant Officer assumed that a battle had taken place, and ample to the whole civilised world, because America had
even though favourable to the fleet of this country, contended hitherto spent no more than 1,200,0001. in any one year on
that at Portsmouth and Plymouth accommodation for re- her navy. There were in fact more officers in our navy than
pairing war-steamers to the extent of 20,000 horse-power there were sailors in the navy of America. Iu conclusion he
should be provided. In all the testimony given with respect would urge and entreat the Government to use some of that
to the expenditure we ought to incur it was assumed that diplomacy which had hitherto been devoted to less beneficial
we were at war. It was on the assumption of such a state purposes, in endeavouring to induce other countries to do
of things that a sun: amounting to 1,250,0001. had been re- what he hoped we should do without delay—in endeavouring
commended to be laid out at Keyham. While they to induce them to retrace their steps, and to diminish their
hal at the present moment an amount of dockyard preparations for aggressive or defensive warfare.—( Hear.)
accommodation for the repair of vessels to the extent Admiral BOWLES said it appeared to him that the Hon.
of 25,000 horse-power, it was recommended by the gallant Gentleman who had just sat down committed a great error
witness that it should be increased to 75,000 horse- in looking at that question merely as a pecuniary one, while
power to meet the exigencies of all the imaginary battles he forgot the great advantages we derived from our naval
which were contemplated in the testimony. The same wit- expenditure. It appeared to him that the apprehensiote
ness had been further asked Was all this neceesaey in a created by the state ef our coast was not unfounded, and
time of peace?" To which he had replied, " I view all these that it was such as no Minister ought to neglect. There
questions with reference to a state of war."—( Hear, hear.) could be no doubt that if a war had broken out suddenly in
But, great as all those preparations were, it appeared that the year 1844, as it was likely to have done, this country
some of the gallant officers examined were not satisfied with would have been placed in great danger, and would have
them. Another -gallant officer, Admiral Bowles, was also been totally unprepared for a sudden attack. That unpre.h
examined. Perhaps he (Mr. Cobden) might not be perfectly paredness, however, could not be attributed to the Govern-
in order, in quoting from or referring to evidence which was ment of the day, but was the result of a system of economy
not yet in the hands of all the Members of the House; but which had prevailed during the ten preceding years, and
it was no fault of his if the navy estimates were brought on which had rendered it impossible to maintain our fleet in a
before that evidence was distributed.—(Hear, hear.) The state of perfect efficiency. It was manifestly desirable that we
Hon. Member then read some extracts from the evidence of should increase our steam navy in particular, after the great
the Hon. and Gallant Member last named, by which it increase which had taken place in the steam navy of France.
would appear that his opinion was, that the navy of this The Government of France appeared to think that we had
country should be superior, by one-half, to that of France, begun to neglect our maritime power, and that if they were
whatever the latter might be. largely to increase their steam navy they might acquire at
Admiral BOWLES said, it was a proof of the inexpe• least a temporary naval superiority over this country.
diency and irregularity of quoting evidence not formally in They had made, as he thought, very unwise and un-
the possession of the House, that the Hon. Member was justifiable efforts for that purpose, the money they had so
reading an uncorrected copy. What he had stated was spent having contributed to bring their finances to their
"ships of the line." present unfortunate condition. There could be no doubt
Mr. COBDEN continued.—He agreed with the Hon. and but that if France had consented to diminish her naval force, Gallant Admiral in the opinion which he had expressed in while we pursued the same course, the result would have
this instance, that England should have a larger naval and been most satisfactory. But Franca had done •the very re
steam force than other countries Every one should admit verse. The Chambers, the Government, and the people
that England was entitled to have a more extended naval seemed to be running a race in preparing fur a war with
force in proportion to her more extended commerce; and she this country. Circumstances had since changed, and he
might have such without exciting the jealousy of other na- hoped that a better spirit had of late sprung up in France;
tions.—(Hear, hear.) But he was not infavour of this system but he believed no one would deny that while France was
of continually increasing our naval armament. The Hon. and increasing her naval power it became this country to make'
Gellert witness also admitted that in giving the advice for corresponding exertions. Such exertions had been made by
the increased armament he never considered the expense, but the Administration of the Right Honourable Baronet the
only took into consideration the safety of the empire. In Member for Tamworth, of which he (Admiral Bowles ).
the evidence given before the Committee it appeared to him had had the honcur to 'oe a humble member. He could
that the witnesses assumed a physical possibility, and called bear his full testimony to the necessity of the exertions'
upon them to agree to it as a moral probability.—(Hear, which had then been made by the authorities at the Admi-•
hear.) Such were the grounds upon which they were told ralty in this country; and lie believed that no expense
to agree to an increased expenditure. He saw a remark in had been incurred in that matter beyend that which was
one of the American papers which, although a coarse one, absolutely necessary. With respect to the report of the Corn.
struck him as hewing some weight in it with regard to our mittee on the estimates he should only say that he hoped he
recent panic. It had been there said that England was in• would never again see the management of the national ex-
cunning a large expense for a long time in playing the bully penditure taken out of the hands of the Government, and
amongst other nations, and that she was now incurring a referred to a Committee of that House. There was no doubt
large expense in playing the coward.—(Cries of "Hear.") but that our naval expenditure ought to be conducted as
He would ask the Government whether it was not possible economically as possible, and he certainly believed that that
that something might be done to stop this enormous expen- was the opinion of the officers of the navy, who were only
dittos that was now going on? Was it not possible to per- anxious that the efficiency of the force should be secured at
suede continental states that this absurd system of increased the lowest possible cost. But it should not be forgotten that-
armament ought to be put an end to?—(Hear.) It might saving and economy were two very different things. He
be called a Utopian or visionary attempt to snake such an would recommend his lion. and Gallant Friends opposite to
essay; but he was supported in his view by a high authority direct their best consideration to the building, repairing, and
in that House—by no less an opinion than that of the Right altering of ships, in which great economy might be ob-
110H. Baronet the member for Tamworth. It. 12.11 Sir served."—(ll,,r, hear.) Ail do expenses of our dockyards
`Hobert reel has mace a speech in that House, in which he were of such magnitude that thousands of oeunds might
had spoken to the following effect:—" Is not the time a very short time be unnecessarily expended in repairing its
or
come when the powerful countries of Europe should re- altering vessels. Ile would recommend to the Admiralty
duce those military armaments which they have so that all alterations and experiments of every kind should be
sedulously raised? Is not the time come when they should carefully considered by the whole Board, that a minute should
be prepared to declare that there is no use in such over- be made of the reasons for effecting any alteration, and that
grown establishments? What is the advantage of one such matters should not be left solely to that Lord of the
power greatly increasing its army or navy ? Does it not Admiralty who might happen to be in communication with
see that if it proposes such increase for self-protection and the Surveyor to the Navy. lie would also suggest that the
defence the other Powers would follow its example ? The Surveyor, who was an officer of high rank and character*
consequence of this state of things must be that no increase should receive a seat at the Board of Admiralty, where he
of relative strength will accrue to any one Power, but that might state his own case, instead of having it stated for him
there must be a universal consumption of the resources of by one of the junior officers.
every country in military preparations. They are, in fact, Admiral DUNDAS said that no order was at present given
depriving peace of half its advantages, and anticipating the by the Board of Admiralty for altering a vessel without
energies of war whenever they may be required. I do not consulting the Surveyor, who was called before the Board
mean to advocate any romantic notion of each nation once or twice every week.
trusting with security the professions of its neighbour, but Mr. CORRY defended the increase in the salary of the
if each country were to commune witk itself, and ask, second Secretary. The Hon. Member for Montrose had
What is at present the danger of foreign invasion, coin- made a positive statement that
thosehatthe ships
ip ms ichewrhofhtwheersehfiiptsfoorf
pared to the danger of producing dissatisfaction and discon. the line was reduced to fifty, but he apprehended that the
tent, and curtailing the comforts of the people by undue Hon. Member merely included
taxation ?' the answer must be this, that the danger of sea. He rejoiced to hear the result of the experiments with
aggression is infinitely less than the danger of those suf- the Blenheim, and he had no doubt in his own mind that
ferings to which the present exorbitant expenditure must within a very few years they would see the screw applied to
give rise The interest of Europe is not that any one country a very groat extent. He had heard with great satisfaction
should exercise a peculiar influence ; but the true interest of that no intention existed of reducing the number of flag-4:4-
Europe is to come to some one common accord, so as to en- cers from 150 to 100, for it would have been one of the moat
able every country to reduce those military- armaments unfortunate things which could have happened if effect had
which belong to a state of war rather than of peace.— been given to that recommendation. The very essence.of
(Hear, hear.) Ido wish that the councils of every country the retirement system consisted in securing a continual sti6-
(or that the public voice and mind, if the councils did not) cessionh of yotung officers, and if they reduced the flag flit
noneytrosinein
jhuaddicrioefuesrraeldteratotiothnes
would willingly propagate such a doctrine." lie would ask wouldThe Hon.
go back to the system of slow promo-
the House to consider what the proposed amount ofLion. Mempubebrlificirmbol
18,000,000/. would represent, which was to be expended in very great waste of
an increased armament ? It would represent no less than made building ships. lie (Mr. C.) believed that a con-
-8 000.000 quarters of corn, and the rental of about 1,20
i 0 ,000 sictert
able saving might be effected by means of judicious re-
houses of the value of 101. The number of houses n all gti la lone in this department, and he begged to call attention
their accessible towns would hardly extend to such an ex- to the circumstance, that the last Board of Admiralty bad
pence. The question, therefore, became of the utmostl im- constituted a committee of scientific nen for the express
i
portance to men of all parties at the present time. e was purpose of superintending the instruction of apprentices in
far from objecting to the expense of any armament necessary the science of shipbuilding. With regard to the measures
but for the protection of our coast or our commerce ; he of the present Board of Admiralty the Committee was well
maintained that every additional penny of cost incurred aware that, for the purpose of obviating this evil, a new code
was so much thrown into the sea, and was an expen- of instructions had been drawn up by the Surveyor of the
diture which ought not to be sanctioned.—(Hear, hear.) Navy, which had been of great benefit to the service. Is the
He had observed in the course of the inquiries before the course of the present discussion it had been assumed by
•Select Committee on the estimates, that the purposes -for several Hon. Members on the other aide of the House that
which the armaments were kept up, were never properly all the preparations made by the late Board of AdMiralty
defined. Lord Auckland had been examined before the Corn- were adopted under the pressure of immediate alarm, as
mittee, and mans, questions had been put to him as to the though France had been about to invade us on the morrow,
rule which guided him in the disposal of our naval force; A more absurd notion it would be impossible to conceive. It
but to these questions he had never given any intelligible was quite true that the relations between this country and
answer. The rule which principally guided him seemed to France at the period in question were net of the most pacific
be that we ought to have in every quarter of the world a character, and that great alarm was felt as to the possibility
naval force as great, or greater than that of any other power. of a war. But he begged to call the attention of the Come
For instance, there was a very miserable quarrel in the mittee to the fact that in 1844, 'whets these steam prepare,.
Inver Plate, which had led to great waste of money and of tions were taken in hand, the steam navy in France was
diplomacy at Monte Video and Buenos Ayres; and Lord larger than that of England, though we had a great supe •
Auckland had kept a British fleet in that region simply rity in our sailing-vessels. He hoped, notwithstanding the
because a French fleet had also been stationed there. But peaceful doctrines of the Hon. Member for the West Riding,
surely there was no sense in that. The French might that her Majesty's Government would not allow France to
blockade Monte Video, and it might be desirable to send out equal us in the amount of ker steam navy. He believed that
an English ship to see that the usual conditions of war were a more efficient steam navy than that possessed by Great
observed during the blockade; but while dealing with Britain at this moment was not to be found.—(Hear, hear.)
a civilised country like France, it was not necessary that The Hon. Member for the West Riding said that all this ex-
a large fleet should be stationed along the coast for that penditure had been imposed on the country because France
purpose. Let them look at the naval force we had at pre- and other powers were ruaning.a race, than which nothing,
sent on the Chinese station. We had 25 ships there, whereas could be more absurd. But it was not England but Frante.
in the year 1805, during the war, we had only 'l5 ships on that set the example. It must not be forgotten, too, that
that station. We exported 2,060,000/. worth of goods to there existed no means of repairing the boilers of steam-
China ; but if it were necessary to guard those exports by a vessels from Liverpool to. London, while there was scarcely
fleet which cost 700,0001., we could only lose by such a trade; a port along the whole line of the French coast in which a
(and if we had enough of it, it would ruin this country.— steam-vessel would not have found the means of refitting her
Hear, hear.) Surely we ought to have some better rule for machinery in case of disaster. The Hon. Member had stated
the disposal of our naval force than any which we had what he could scarcely believe titeesible, that the cost of' out
hitherto adopted. He should remind the fiouse that at pre- steam navy, and the establiehments to keep it in repair, ex-
sent our trading-vesselshvere never in danger from pirates. ceeded that of the,whole mercantile navy.
:That was an advantage which our forefathers had not pos- Mr. 00111)EN—I spoke-of the mercantile steam navy. ' •
sassed, fo_LifeWas only within the last tweeety years that the eMe. CORRY belieyed that the cost.of theemerchantnttestin
waterginMe world were secure agairtiratical violence. navvwee considerably greater than that of the war navy.
The extended commerce of this country had cleared the ocean Sir Thomas 13n4ifigs estimated the total horse power of the
of pirates, in the same way as the construction of turnpike- combined Mercantile and steam.nary at 70,000 horses, and
roads had cleared our rural districts of robbers. lie knew said they ought to have the means of repairing this amount
that there were Malay prows in the Indian Archipelago ; of horse power. Complaints were made that all our naval
but they did not attack our vessels,; they merely attacked establishments were regulated with the view to a possible
each other. We had at present no such danger to meet as -war. On -what other assumption were our defences to be
that which prevailed when the Algerines were sweeping the regulated ?—(Hear, hear.) He hoped this country would
Mediterranean with their fleet. In ancient times the always trust for her defence rather to her own resources than
Venetians had a regular ship of war to accompany every to the mercy of others.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
merchant vessel; but no necessity for such an escort at pre. for the West Hiding said France was going to disarm. He
sent existed ; and the great powers of Europe were main. rejoiced to hear it; and if France disarmed, he had no
taining their armaments simply because they were running a objection that England should disarm too. But it was not,
race with each other in a career of folly and extravagance. He as the Hon. Member asserted, for this country to set the ex-
confessed that he did not see anything in the state of the ample, because there was no ether great power so deficient in
world that should prevent our making a pacific overture for e the means of military defence. It had been said that GOO
general reduction of the armaments of the great nations of was fixed in 1833 as the number of 'nen employed in oar
Europe. He had been taunted on the preceding evening by dockyards; but that was a period of low estimates, and
the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) with not when they had reduced their stores to such a state that they
having been a true prophet on the subject of the French had scarcely a spare sail or mast, and a large vote, at a sub-
revolution. Now he readily admitted that he had not fore- Sequent period, was the necessary consequence of that 'ye-
seen a month beforehand an event which such sagacious men tern. He abstained from entering into a discussion of the
as Louis Philippe and M. Guieot had not foreseen at twelve report, because the evidence was not yet in the bands of Hon.
o'clock of the day on which it had happened.—(Hear, hear.) Members, but he trusted he should be able, when the report
He believed there were vary few persons who relied less on had been printed, to satisfy the House that the measures
predictions than he did. He merel•y judged of the future taken by the late Government in the naval department were
from the past and the present; and, looking at the present absolutely necessary for the maintenance of the naval supra-
state of Enrolee, he thought that we ought to reduce our macs of this country, which he hoped, notwithstanding the
armaments. He saw in recent events no symptom of a wan opinions expressed by the Hon. Member for the West Riding,
between the great nations of Europe. On the contrary, he- no Government of this country would he prepared to shim-
found all nations attempting to settle down according to don.—(Cheers.)
their several races, religions, and traditions, in order that Lord J. RUSSELL.-Sir, Ido not rise for the purpose,
they might each live at home in peace. The Diet at Frank- of entering into a discussion of the navy estimates fly
fort said they wanted to be German; the Italians said they i Hon. Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty has done that,
wished to live alone, although Austria was endeavouring to and my Hon. Friend opposite, who has been concerned in the
defeat`that very natural desire. He saw a great guarantee preparation of navy estimates for the late Government, has
against our being involved in a European war in the fact I also gone very fully into the subject, and, as I think, very
whew one great nation conquered another of different race, satisfactorily. But the Hon. Member for the West Riding
language, and religion, that did not benefit them, but was, I has laid down certain principles which undoubtedly it may
on the contrary, a source to them of perpetual weakness. be of use to consider, at least, with the view to the prepare-
No man who knew anything of the state of public. feeling in tion of the estimates for a future year, and it does seem to
Lombardy and Venetia could doubt that the subjection of me the principal point for discussion on the present °cue"
those countries by Austria would be a source of embarrass- sion. It is impossible now to diseuss the report—no one.
ment rather than of strength to that Power. Let it also ; wishes to reduce the actual force of the navy for the present
be remembered that Princes and Ministers could nat now ' year; but certain principles were laid down by the H°ll-31e dispose of countries and carve out monarchies 33 they ber for the West Riding, on which I think it important for the
had done at the Treaty of Vienna. The popular House to bestow some consideration with a view to the
voice WWI a new element in the arrangement ..off future basis of our estimates, The Honourable Mem
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