The Sun.
London, England, 1848-06-03 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, June 2.
he LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented s petition against
the admission of Jews into the Legislature; also several
petitions against the Registration (Scotland) Bill. •
Mr. Bernal and others from the Commons brought up
a message, praying to be furnished with a copy of the
evidence taken before their Lordships' Committee on the
navigation-laws.—Ordered.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from Hud-
dersfield praying for an alteration i n the law of bank-

ruptc.
They Earl of EGLINTON presented several petitions
against the Marriage and Registration Bill for Scotland.
On the motion of the Earl of DEVON, the Poor
Houses (Ireland) Bill was read a third time and passed.
DISGRACEFUL CONDUCT OF THE
CHARTISTS.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from a
society of Odd Fellows, praying for protection to trade,
and in doing so the Noble Lord took the opportunity of
directing their Lordships' attention to the disgraceful
scenes which the streets of London had exhibited during
the last few days. The system of processions which had
been resorted to was most abominable, and ought at
once to be put a stop to, for it had a direct tendency to
bring the sober-minded, industrious, and peaceable popu-
lation of London into contempt, not only at home but
abroad. Besides, the proceedings of the parties who got up
these processions being highly objectionable, when secret
signs, like publishing on a large placard the words " 29th
of May," were resorted to, it was high time that the
strong arm of the law was brought into operation, to
force them to be more candid and open in their move-
ments. He would say nothing about, the: object
these parties had in view, but be it good or bad, he
hoped it would never be attained while they had recourse
to these intimidating proceedings. For the last week
much of the retail trade of the metropolis had been put
a stop to, and he trusted that immediate measures would
be taken by her Majesty's Government to prevent a
recurrence of these processions.'
The Duke of WELLINGTON said it was disgraceful
that, for the last four days, the town should have been
under arms, and he thought that those persons who
called crowds together should be responsible in their
pockets for the consequence; be those consequences
the breaking of windows or the destruction of
property. They were assembled nightly to listen
to orators inciting to the assassination of the
illustrious individual on the throne, and of all other
persons who might have lent their aid to the apprehen-
sion and conviction of a felon.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was rejoiced to state
that the precautions which had been taken by the Govern-
ment had preserved the public peace. Those processions
which had been attempted had been stopped in every
part of the metropolis, and the police had been found
sufficient to preserve the peace; but he thought that
those proceedings ought not any longer to be suffered.
He certainly had seen the placard of the 29th of May,
to which allusion had been made; but he bad been in-
formed that that mysterious placard was merely in
tended to invite the public to attend the opening of
Cremorne Gardens.
The Duke of RICHMOND suggested that the ma-
gistrates should carry the law properly into effect by
committing persons brought before them for Chartist
rioting to trial, and it was the duty of the Government
to indict them for interrupting the police in the execution
of their duty as a duty which they owed to the police
force. He was sure that the attention of his Right Hon.
Friend who so ably presided over the Home Department,
would be called to this subject. He should recommend
the Chartists not to go on night after night keeping
soldiers under arms. Soldiers were men, and if they
were let out, it might be hard to restrain them.
Lord DENMAN said that Mr. Justice Patteson
had in his charge to the grand jury to-day
explained to them the law on the subject.
Speeches inciting to the commission of felony
constituted a grievous misdemeanour, and ought
to be severely punished ; and it was a most questionable
proceeding on the part of those desirous of further re-
form. to agitate the people at this crisis. He was an
old reformer, but he considered that those who agitated
the public mind at this crisis were undoing all reform.
SPAIN.

Lord STANLEY rose to call the attention of the
House to the papers which had been laid upon the table
on the subject of the differences with Spain. He
complained of the omission of the statement made
by the Government of Spain of the reasons which
had induced them to adopt the step of sending to
the British Ambassador his passports. He wished
to know whether any communication had been
received from the Spanish Government, stating the
grounds of the expulsion of Sir H. Bulwer, and if such
communication would be laid before the House.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that since the
papers had been laid before the House some explanation
had been received through the only legitimate channel
through which it could be received, of the grounds
on which the Spanish Government had acted ;
that explanation was anything but satisfactory, and the
correspondence was not yet closed; but the moment the
Spanish Government had afforded all the explanations
that could be afforded no time would be lost in bringing
them before the House, and whenever those papers
came under discussion, he trusted he should satisfy their
Lordships that no papers had been improperly omitted
from the papers laid before their Lordships.
IRELAND. _ _

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he had to lay on
the table papers with reference to Ireland, and as re-
peated inquiries had been made in that House with re-
spect to transactions in Ireland, he'would state what was
the amount of relief and assistant)* afforded to Ireland,
and what were the measureccontemplated for mitigating i
the distress there. In the whole of the two years the
sum of 8,787,000/. had been advanced for the service of
Ireland, which included the amount of 339,0001. which
had been advanced for the purpose of promoting rail-
roads in that country. He was not about to vindi-
cate the application of these loans in every re-
spect to which they had been applied, but great
good, he had no doubt, had been effected by
the loans to railways. He would now explain what
was the present state of the assistance to Ireland. He
thought the real regenerating principle to be applied was
to be found not in Fargo advances from this country, but
in the awakened spirit of exertion in Ireland herself.
In those districts where seed could not be procured the
distress was still great. In addition to the poor-law,
which had proved to a great degree effective for its pur-
pose in having spared a great amount of human life,
very considerable assistance had been afforded by the
" British Relief Association," carrying on its operations
of charity and benevolence upon a scale greater than
was ever known before in any country, and under a
system of management the most perfect, and which had
induced the Government to avail themselves of their
machinery to administer the, amount of aid that might be
required in particular parts of the country in training and
educating children. 201,100 children bad been thus pro-
vided for. (The Noble Marquis then read from a report
proofs of the great benefit afforded by the British Relief
Association, which had expended upwards of 62,0001.) The
Government had thought it desirable to see that where
the resources applied to the education of children, and
occasional assistance to unions, had failed, they should
be continued until after next harvest. As to the
loans which had been made to the Government,
they did not intend to ask for the payment of any
of the instalments until after the next harvest, and ap-
plication would be made to Parliament for the post-
ponement of these instalments. He could not help
calling particular attention to the services of the gentle-
man who for two years had devoted body and soul to
the administration of those funds, requiring the utmost
industry and care—he meant Count Zaleski, a Polish
nobleman, who had refused to take the smallest remu-
neration for his services. His exertions for the country's
weal bad been far greater than that of many professed
patriots there.—(Hear, hear.) There was now a greater
amount of cultivation in Ireland than ever there had
been before. The Noble Marquis concluded by laying
the papers on the table.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM conceived, that though there
was much that was gratifying in the statement of his
Noble Friend, it was not altogether satisfactory, There
was but one mode of conferring permanent benefit upon
Ireland, and effecting those changes in the condition of
the various classes in Ireland, but especially of the rural
population, which it was the duty of the Government to
bring about—that was a large and extensive measure of
emigration.
POOR-LAW (IRELAND).
On the motion of the Earl of LUCAN, the Select
Committee on this subject was nominated.
PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS BILL.
Lord STANLEY moved the third reading of this Bill.
Lord CAMPBELL contended that the Bill was alto-
gether unnecessary: it was in fact not only useless but
done
by all that it proposed to do might be
by a resolution of either House. Ile moved that it
be
read a third time that day six months.
but in so
Lord LANGDALE spoke at some length,
low a tone that whether in support or against the Bill it
was impossible in the gallery, to bear.
Lord WHARNCLIFPE supTiOrted-the Bill, which he
said- would enable either House of Parliament, in the
case of a divorce or other Bill on which it might require
further information, to suspend it and resume it in the
following session, without requiring it to go again
through all the stages it had already passed. This would
be a great convenience, preventing unnecessary expense
and delay.
Lord REDESDALE repeated the objections which he
had urged on former stages of the Bill. He did not
think it would at all reach the evils for the prevention
of which it was intended.
Lord MONTEAGLE sup ported the Bill.
Lord STANLEY briefly replied ; and the Bill, with
one or two amendments, was read a third time and
passed.
Their Lordships adjourned at Half-past Eight o'clock

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 2.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
SUNDAY TRADING.
Mr. Sheriff Hill presented a petition at the bar
from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Corporation,
against Sunday trading.
The report of the Middle Level. Drainage Acts Amend-
ment Bill was considered and agreed to.
THIRD READINGS.
'The following Bills were road a third time and passed:
Clarence Railway and Leeds and Thirsk Railway
.amalgamation.
Du hlin and Mullingar Turnpike Road.
East:• Lincolnshire Railway (Alteration of Great Grimsby
B► •anch).
Edin burgh and Glasgow Railway (No. I—Amendment
of . kets and Branches, etc.)
Exeter, Yeovil, and Dorchester Railway and Branches.
Forth and Clyde Navigation, and Airdrie and. Coat-
Water.

THE

Leeds Central Railway Station.
Salisbury and Yeovil Railway.
ADDRESS TO THE QUEEN.
Mr. LASCELLES brought up the following reply
from her Majesty to the recent address of condo-
lence by the House of Commons on occasion of
the death of the Princess Sophia :—" I have
received with satisfaction the loyal and dutiful
address of condolence which the House of
Commons has presented to me on occasion of the melan-
choly death of my beloved aunt, the Princess Sophia,
and I regara it as a gratifying proof of their attachment
to my person, my family, and my government."
FREE CHURCH SITES BILL.
Lord DUNCAN presented a petition in favour of this

NAVIGATION-LAWS.
Sir CHARLES BURRELL presented petitions from
places in Sussex against the repeal of these laws.
THE DUTCH INHABITANTS OF THE CAPE.
Dr. BOWRING said he had a remarkable petition to
present, as it was in the Dutch language.—(Laughter,
and cries of " Read, read.") He had prepared a trans-
lation, for the accuracy of which he could vouch.—
(Cheers.) The petition was from the Dutch inhabitants of
Coburg, in the district of the Cape, near the Cape of
Good Hope ; the petitioners stated that they had
suffered much from the want of a representative Go-
vernment in the colony, that millions might have been
saved to this country if such a system had
prevailed ;there, and praying that the House would give
them those advantages which were possessed by all free
citizens.

FREE CHURCH SITES.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE presented five petitions from
Kincardine in favour of the Sites Bill. He wished to
state that he did not agree in the prayer of the peti-
tions.
THE REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE.
Dr. BOWRING said he had to present fifty " family'
petitions—(Laughter)—from Preston and Bolton, pray-
ing the House to pass the motion of the Hnoura
Pb
Member for Montrose. The parties signing. the e
tions gave their professions and addresses.
STATE OF IRELAND.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD gave notice of his
intention, the first Supply night after the Whitsuntide
recess, to move a resolution to the effect that the present
distracted state of Ireland demands the immediate
attention of Parliament with a view to improve the con-
dition and redress the grievances of the Irish people, and
Crown and
thereby promote the prosperity of the United Kingdom,
and give increased security to the wovern-
ment.
POOR-LAW RETURNS.
Mr. CLEILENTS moved for returns of each poor-
law union in Ireland, specifying the name of each
electoral division, and the valuation thereof ; the total
amount per pound on the valuation of the rates made
for each such division during the year ended the 25th
day of March, 1848 ; the amount to be collected by
cyludcinolglect
pedrev(ioinuesluadrirnegarsp)r;eviaonuds
such
amount t(noatctuainll
arrears) to the 25th day of March, 1848
; of
each poor-law union in Ireland, specifying the liabili-
ties of such union, on the 25th day of March, 1847; the
expenses of the year ended the 25th day of March, 1848;
the total expenses and liabilities; the amount is the
treasurer's hands on the 25th day of March, 1847;'the
amount actually collected during the year ended the 25th
day of March, 1848; the amount received from all other
sources during the year ended the 2ith day of March
1848 ; the amount available for expenses and liabilities
during the year ended the 25th day of March 1848 ;
the excess of assets over liabilities ; the excess tt!tf
liabilities over assets • the amount of sates uncollected
on the 25th day of March, 1848; and, of each county,
county of a city, and *county of a town in Ireland,
specifying the name of each barony or half
barony, and the poor-law valuation thereof ;
the present half-yearly liabilities of each such barony
or half-barony, or of the county at large, for repay-
ment of any advances from the Treasury (except under
the Temporary Relief Act of 1847), during the years
1845, 1846, and 1847, distinguishing the Acts under
which the advances were made, the total amount of such
liabilities, and the rate per pound on the valuation.

Agreed to.
AMALGAMATED RAILWAYS.
Mr. DODD moved that there be laid before the
House maps, showing the amalgamation of railways,
the existing lines, and those in progress, for Great
Britain and Ireland.—Agreed to.
VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.
Mr. C. ANSTEY, seeing the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies in his
place, wished to ask him, whether he had any objec-
tion to lay upon the table of the House the dispatches
which had been received from the Lieutenant-Governor
of Van Diemen's Land, in reference to the dismissal of
one of the judges of that colony, and the proceedings
which were being taken in reference to the dismissal of
another, and whether he had any objection to state now
whether Government intended to take steps to secure
the restoration to office of these two functionaries?
Mr. HAWES said the dispatches had only just been
received, and as they had not yet been perused by the
Secretary of State, he trusted the Hon. and Learned
Member would allow his question to stand over for a
day or two.
Mr. C. ANSTET gave notice that on Tuesday next
he would move for the production of the papers.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion of Sir G. GREY, it'was resolved that
the' House at its rising should adjourn till Monday.
NAVIGATION-LAWS—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the question being put for resuming the adjourned
debate,
Mr. GLADSTONE rose to request the indulgence
of the House while he endeavoured to lay before them
the view be was inclined to take of this important and
by no means uninteresting question. He could assure
them that he should refrain entirely from troubling them
with figures and particular details, for enough had been
done and no doubt would be done by other gentlemen
in that way, and he should confine himself to the
grounds upon which he had arrived at the opinion he
now entertained upon this subject.—(Hear, hear.) The
question at present under consideration was not exactly
whether they considered the plan of the Government in
all its details, or even in its view, to be the best plan that
could-possibly be adopted, but the real question for them
to consider was involved in the motion of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Stamford, namely, as to whether
they were prepared at this time to make an extensive
change not only in the details but in the principle of the
navigation-laws. He was afraid that many who read the
motion of his Hon. Friend had no difficulty in giving it
such a construction as to make it mean something equiva-
lent to nothing, because many said that no inconvenience
had been proved as attending the navigation-laws, and
that they could not be altered in any particular
, without endangering our maritime interests. He, however,
had understood his description of the principles of the
navigation-laws to be equally clear and succinct. He un-
derstood him to say that the principle of these laws, as
regarded our domestic and colonial trade, was to secure
an absolute and exclusive right to British shipowners ;
and with respect to our foreign trade that the shipowners
of different nations were entitled to a reciprocity of deal-
ing; and that the navigation-laws in that latter sense ought
to be altered, and that the present was the most season-
able time to make such alteration. In his (Mr. Glad-
stone's) opinion, there never was an instance when the
proof was more distinct that they ought to legislate than
at the present moment. From the attitude assumed
by foreign states, it was absolutely necessary for
them to decide finally whether they should continue in
substance their present commercial code, or whether
they should proceed upon a different basis. His Hon.
Friend had spoken of Prussia in slighting terms, but he
begged to say that we carried on no more important
trade with any country in the world than we did
with Prussia, and that her commercial power was of the
first class in a question of that description, and ought to
be dealt justly with by this country. The menace
which she uttered against us was perfectly fair and
equitable, because she gave us an opportunity of
knowing, in the event of our not relaxing our comesercia
laws, what her real intentions were. It had been stated
that because the colonies failed to deluge the House with
petitions for an alteration in the laws there was no ur-
gent necessity, so far as regarded those colonies, of taking
them into consideration at the present time.—(Hear.)
If they did not hear of the grievances of the colonies in
the form of petitions to the House, or in any other
Way, they might depend upon it that the time was
not far distant when they would speak in a language
that would not be misunderstood.—(Loud cheers.)
Look at the case of the Australian colonies—
they derived no benefit from the protective laws. Those
lawsa compelled the grower to send his wool to this country
at
gtrh come but
whilst the wool of Germany, which
had
but one-lourth the distance, was unduly
to
ovaoeue shipsre
favoured. The Australian wool grower was compelled
by whlicnhocrithle.i3ifs most anxious to send his
wool leave the port Sidney in ballast, and
on the same
Cuba could be convely3eed thecopper of Chili and
withoutproducer
those restrictions to
which the Australian wool zdcearcewas subject. The
s:eel) npiarkettoato_ of
Jamaica.chesper rate,
but the possessor was liable to
adbvahta
alairnghet mbeighbrtoubgehstaiidntoof
injured by
Member
competitors who possessed
were denied to him. The Hon. Gentleman gees-
for Stamford said he was ready to make all the foreignmweara
trade of the country a matter of negotiation; he
ready, for instance, to allow the planter of Cuba the
power of sending sugar in American vessels to this
country; but ha insisted that with respect to Jamaica
the practice which existed should continue; he was
plantero f in
or jtha-
e
prepared to give to the planter of Cuba advantages
prepared
tthoedteinze
forwathiswas
done we had. by our
recent commercial legislation,
y increasing our imports,
do again in a similar period to stimulate the shipping
trade of the country, b
and consequently to find avenues to employment
l
which did not before exist. The noblemen and gentle-
men
ea of the
of England opposed the rep
navigation-
laws, because they believed such a course would have the
effect of impairing the utility of the maritime power
of the country—(Cheers)—and if he could bring himself
"l
to entertain a similar opinion he should oppose the Bt
He could not go the length of agreeing in the
mighty flight of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Manchester, because he believed when the benign con-
tagion of increasing commerce spread its way through-
out the world that the abrogation of tliese laws would
be found one of the most salutary measures that
the House had ever adopted.—(Hear, hear.) It
could not be said that their repeal would destroy the
maritime power of the country. By a recent statement
of the Colonial Secretary, it appeared that in 171)2,
when the war broke out, that the naval force of the
country consisted of from 16.000 to 18,000 men. The
mercantile navy then consisted of 1,500,000 men ; now
lit was somewhere about 4,000,000. The real question
was, what would be the mercantile effect of removing or
centinuing the navigation-laws. Would the repeal
of the navigation-laws give an impetus to the ata-

,

S-U

L ON D'ON,

rine, or would it dwindle it down to nothing? He
believed that the effect of a judicious alteration in the
navigation-laws would be to strengthen the commerce
and navigation of the country. Who had the country
to fear ? The Dane and the Swede ? Certainly
not. It was said that the country had great ground
to fear them, because they could get cheap seamen
and cheap ships ; but if there was any ground for
fearing them, how came it they had not been
driven out of the trade of the world ?—(Hear, hear.)
The Americans victualled and manned their ships
at far greater expense than this country did, but they
did not fear either the Dane or the Swede. The
truth was that it was not the cheap country,
but the dear one they had to fear—they
had to fear the country that had capital, and not
that which had not. It would not be fair or right
to assume that this measure involved a censure
upon British seamen. He believed that the abi-
lities and the knowledge of seamen in their profession
would be brought to a much higher point by a less
restrictive mode of competition. On several grounds,
therefore, he could nut hesitate in saying that
the time bad now come when they ought to
have an extensive alteration in the navigation-laws,
and he had only to state to the House what appeared to
him to be the character of the measure now before the
e conditional concessions
to
echo
with
House. He could have wished that the spirit
of the Bill had been this—that the Govern-
ment
countries,dispo sed
andto m
were, in
fact, readythe words of Mr. Bancroft, the American Minister, when
other were
he said, "We shall do what you do—if you do much we
will do much—if you do all, we will do all." He was of

opinion that the fears of British shipowners
as to a freer intercourse with other countries

had been greatly overrated, and that in reality
very little difference would result to them if
the navigation-laws were altered. He could wish that
there were, with America on the one hand and the

Baltic on the other, a free and unconditional intercourse.
He was aware that the very name of "reciprocity
treaties" was unpopular, but that arose from the unjust
prejudice which had been created by the universal and
unequivocal failure of all attempts to contract engage-
ments of reciprocity with regard to the Customs Acts.
But that prejudice ought not to attach to the present case,
which was wholly different from that of the Customs Act.
He contended that the two subjects were widely different.
Holland, fur instance, was, in its policy, liberal in re-
spect to the customs duties—not so as regarded its navi-
gation-laws; and France, Spain, and the Italian states,
had considerable apprehensions that great mischief would
be done, and great scope be opened to the selfish views
which prevailed in somecountries, by the exclusion of their
ships from many trades by the operation of double du-
ties. He, therefore, thought it would have been advan-
tageous to pursue the course of reciprocity treaties in
tee present instance. He said this because the measure
propounded by the Government was not unconditional,
inasmuch as it reserved to the Queen in Council the
power of retaliation.—(Hear, hear.) This discretionary
power, he owned, was to him highly objectionable; and,
though he was aware similar powers had before been re-
served, they had never been of so important and exten-
sive a character. True, in the Corn Bill a similar
power was retained, but it was regarded as a mere
brutum fulmen which would not be resorted to. He,
therefore, did not form a precedent_from this case, and
he thought the House ought to know whether the power
was proposed to be dormant, or to be actively exercised
against such countries as did not reciprocate with Great
Britain. There ought to be given an explicit pledge on
this part of the suhject.—(Hear.) The other points on
which he differed trom the proposition of her Majesty's
Government were with respect to the restrictions they
still proposed to retain. It was impossible to pass a
sweeping measure of this kind, and still retain the re-
striction on the shipowners which compelled them to
man their ships with three-fourths British seamen. An-
other restriction proposed to be retained was that which
referred to the British fisheries; but the most important
of all was the maintenance of the restriction with regard
to the coasting trade. He did not see why the coasting
trade should not be dealt with in the same way as the
colonial trade. In his opinion the retention of the re-
strictions on the coasting trade, while it would be of no
value to the British shipowner, would have the effect of
materially restricting the advantages which all were
anxious he should obtain in the coasting trade of other
countries, and, especially with reference to that of Ame-
rica. It would be of immense advantage to the shipping
ut this country to be admitted to the coasting trade of
America.

An Ilox. MEmiEft—lf we can get it.
Mr. GLADSTONE (in continuation)—Why, Mr.
Bancroft had declared, "If you will do all, we will do
all ;" and that word " all " he (Mr. Gladstone) took to
include the coasting trade.—(Hear, hear.) Though
America was to be mitted to the colonial trade, they
were to be refused a participation in the coasting trade
of this country. Now he did not think that any Hon.
Member, even in his immediate neighbourhood, enter-
tained the belief that if the coasting trade was opened
to America, any vessel with the flag of the stars and
stripes would ever engage in it.—(Hear, hear.)
Practically it would be an idle and an empty
permission. We had a coasting and a colonial
trade. America had no colonies, but had a coasting trade
equivalent to a colonial trade ; and with our connexions
in .North America and the West Indies, to the north
and south of the United States, we were in a posi-
tion to take a very beneficial part in that trade.
America was ready to give us all we gave her. If we
gave her the coasting trade, we were entitled to ask for
her coasting trade; but by giving her our colonial trade
only, we withheld what was worthless, but which would
enable her to refuse valuable concessions to us because
we had not given up all.—(Hear, hear.) He cordially
concurred in the general principle of the relaxation of
the navigation-laws; he was sincerely desirous to give
effective support to this measure, and should be sorry to
take any step to injure it. On the other hand, he hoped
that Ministers would not feel themselves precluded from
accepting any suggestions which upon discussion they
might consider au improvement.—(Hear, hear.) With
regard to the general principles, he never felt
more certain of their soundness, of their applicability
to the case in hand, or that the time had come
which was marked out for their application. A
petition presented the previous day from merchants,
&c., in the City, declared that this was the last
moment for touching the navigation-laws ; he
much wondered to what class of considerations
these gentlemen could have applied their minds; for
whether he looked at the aspect of affairs on the conti-
nent, the position now assumed by Prussia, or the steps
taken by the United States, he never remembered a
great question where the preliminary consideration of
time had been so determinedly settled and pointed out
by the concurrence of important circumstances.—(Hear,
liear.) In one seuse, certainly. it might be true that this
was the last moment for touching the navigation-laws;
ter if the question were postponed a year or two the
opportunity of considering it might be for ever lost.—
(Hear.) For whenever we had endeavoured to plead
the relaxation of our commercial code as an argument
with other countries, we had always been met with the
observation that that argument came too late from us,
for that we had always clung to our restrictions as long as
we could; and had only surrendered them under the pres-
sure of overpowering necessity. Considering what was the
avowed intention of one great maritime power, and observ-
ing that the course of political change on the continent was
not favourable to commercial freedom, he feared that if we
refused to close with the fair offer, though made in an
unfriendly form, by Prussia, this might really be the
last moment for considering the navigation-laws.
(Hear, hear.) Much sympathy had been expressed for
the British shipowner. Did he alone fear the competi-
tion of foreigners? Did he labour under greater disad-
vantages in this respect than other interests from whom
protection had -been removed? Did not all trades pay
higher wages, and buy their materials dearer, than the
same trades in other countries? Yet these classes were
able, not only to hold up their heads in the general
competition of commerce, but to take the lead in the
race.—(Hear.) So would it be with the shipowner.
He had the same advantages as other trades—in some re-
spects greater. He had in • his favour the unparalleled
cheapness of capital, the enormous trade of this country,
which being the chief home of trade, and elso his
home, his eraploYment lay almost at his door, while
his foreign competitors would have to seek it at a dis-
tance. He had the immense commercial connexion of
this country, and the high commercial character it
bore, which possessed a pecuniary as well as a moral
value. Besides that, he had the geographical position
of the country, so admirably placed between the centres
of trade in the old world and the new, so that their
trade must of necessity pass England. He had what
was more than all these, the maritime genius of the
nation, the bold and enterprising disposition which
made an Englishman feel himself at home upon the
wave, that power which characterised us beyond all
nations of the globe, and which made it true of British
navigators and merchants that the whole world was
their home.—(Cheers.) With these advantages he
surely ought not to dread the permanent and general
effects of any competition into which he might be called
to enter. Former fears had been tested by experience,
and proved to be wholly unfounded. It was said that
the reciprocity treaties would ruin the country; multi-
tudes of calamities had been predicted to result there-
from; and yet it was now said the state of things was so
satisfactory that on no account should it be interfered
with.—(Hear, hear.) Taking, therefore, not `theory,
but past experience, for their guide, let them not hesi-
tate to adopt the change proposed in its main principles;
and adopting these principles boldly and honestly, and
applying them firmly, we might rely on their working
eut their own results. If now, and without further
delay, we sanctioned the principle of freedom of naviga-
tion, we might expect our example to have a powerful
powero a
curreads
in
so
m e greatr
jc a c
n
influence on foreign countries; for we had already the
first fruits of that result in the invitation given to us by
setting
America.
mseeriiielga. theA nedxwmhepnleittigland would and
Abe
difficult indeed for other nations to resista it;
they would
be drawn into co •
mplianee by moral ties, and considera-
tions of expediency as well. The
ocean, the great high-
way of nations, would become as free for the ships of all
as the winds that swept over its bosom; and England
would thus achieve another triumph, and add another
contribution to the general prosperity of all nations.
Mr. HUDSON said he had the honour to represent
a borough where the largest amount of ship building
was carried on of any place in the kingdom, and where
25,000 out of 70,000 inhabitants were employed in it ;
and on this account he felt bound to express his 'views
on this important question. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man who had last spoken had disapproved of almost
every part of the
Government measure—to carry out
his own views, let him support the views of the Hon.
Member for Stamford.—(Hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman had alluded to the fact that the low-priced
vessels built in our colonies were dearer than those
built at home. This was perfectly true; but, when he
had to compete with the ship-builders of Da.ntzic and
the Prussian ports, the case- would be very different.
At present the trade from Russia was carried on with,

SATURDAY

English ships; but very soon it would be found more
convenient to transfer British skill in ship-building to
the place where the materials existed, than to bring the
materials here to be wrought up. The ship-builder
of Sunderland stated that he was subject to charges
from which the foreign ship-builders were exempt, equi-
valent to not less than 21. 10s. per ton. It was true that
the shipping of this country had been highly prosperous
during the last year ; but from a return of the ships
entering the port of Sunderland for ten years, since the
passing of the reciprocity treaties, he found that the
number of ships from Sweden, Norway, Prussia, and
Hanover, greatly exceeded the number of British ships
—the latter being 95, while the former was 350.—(Hear.)
Should the proposed measure pass into law, the ship-
building trade would, in a great measure, leave this
country ; at Sunderland, about 13,000 hands would be
thrown out of employ ; and already there was quite a
stagnation of the trade. owing to the uncertainty which
prevailed as to this measure. Hon. Gentlemen opposite
said, that having adopted free-trade measures we must
progress ; but h was a bold man who could hold that
language. Look at the state of the working classes in
the manufacturing districts, and the country generally. If
such was the effect of free-trade measures, the sooner we
reverted to protective measures the better. In the West
Indies the planter had been almost wholly destroyed by the
free trade measures; and a Committee of that House had
recommended that their protection should be restored. In
the event of a great ifall in the price of corn, the agri-
culturists at home would again demand protection ; and,
if the shipping interest were next sacrificed, what was
to be the result of all this? Surely, it would be wisdom
to wait till the measures already adopted had had a fair
trial. The people had been promised abundant employ-
ment from the free tra' e measures, instead of which
employment had been diminished and wages reduced.—
(Hear.) The present measures threatened to deprive of
employment 25,000 of the people of Sunderland, who
were directly dependent on ship-building ; and there
were probably 25,000 more, indirectly dependent on the
seine interest. It was most harsh to deprive such large
bodies of employment at one stroke.—(dear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) was clearly bound to
support the amendment; for he even disapproved of pro-
ceeding in this case by legislation, and thought treaties
the preferable course. He had criticised every point of the
proposed measure with great ability; and yet he had
come to the extraordinary conclusion that he ought to
support it. If the measure were carried, it certainly
ought not to be accompanied by any restriction on
British shipowners, either as to the composition of their
crew, or in any other matter.—(Hear, hear.) He dif-
fered from the Hon. Member for Manchester, (Mr.
-"le thing worthy the no-
- --ely an object well
tGi
ei Gibson) ) in
Parliamentthi thinking g
wasth that
.t h. e
deserving the consideration of the Legislature was the
means of giving employment to the poor.—(Hear.)
hie much regretted that a Member of the Government
had chosen to cast aversions on the British marine.
Out of the large number of 33,000 captains, it was im-
possible
but that some should be of objectionable cha-
racter. The returns from the consuls on this subject
had been ably analysed by his Honourable Frien4
Dear him (Air. Henley) ; that was a book
which ought never to have been laid on the
table of the House ; and every one interested in our
marine must regret that it had ever been produced.
He implored the House to pause before adopting a mete
sure which must involve a most important interest in
ruin, and which must, to a large extent, destroy the
ship-building trade of this country. At all events, let
them pause. See what was the effect of the free-trade
measure already passed. .There was no demand for the
measure now proposed; it might very well be deferred
for an indefinite period. It was said Prussia demanded
it; but let not the legislature make concessions to
Prussia which would be injerious to our own country ;
at all events let some countervailing advantage be se-
cured. The corn-law had been repealed in a panic,
otherwise some valuable concessions might have been
obtained from the United States, in return fur the ad-
mission of their grain.—(Hear, hear.) We had taken
largely of grain • from Prussia and other Continental
States; and had we made the most of this, surely
some advantage might have been obtained from those
countries, The shipping interest was now apparently
about to be sacrificed for no object whatever ; the
only inducement being that we reight propitiate
Prussia or America.—(Hear, hear.) Government were
pushing on the measure; but, for his part, he should take
every opportunity of opposing it. Why had it not been
brought forward earlier, and not delayed until .June?
The inquiry . before the Committee had been abruptly
brought to a close. One main branch of the question—
the national defence—had been left untouched, with the
exception of the examination of a single witness. If'
the measure passed, he hoped it would be with the
amendment of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Glad-
stone.) The proposal was either too large or too small ;
it threatened to destroy our commercial marine, without
securing an advantage to any Other interest. Let not
the House be led away by eulogies on the fanciful ad-
vantages of free trade, none of which had as yet been
realised.—(Hear, hear.) Under the present law ships
were built at Sunderland cheaper than in any other
place. That port furnished one-third of the shipping of
this kingdom; but, seeing how little British timber was
employed, it was impossible to resist the conclusion
that, if this measure became law, the ship-builders of
this country would transfer their capital to those king-
doms whence the timber was obtained.—(Hear. hear.)
Captain BERKELEY said he must express his dissent
from the views of Sir J. Stirling as to the dependence of
the royal navy on the mercantile navy for a supply of
hands. Of the apprentices reared in the royal navy,
many went into the merchant service; but the supply of
able seamen was net largely derived from that service.
Formerly, merchant ships were rigged and unrigged by
their own crews; this was now no longer the case; hence
good riggers and able seamen were no longer needed in
those ships, and the boys of the royal navy were very
acceptable, whether they had deserted, or fulfilled their
apprenticeship. For this reason, there was not that
supply of able seamen from the merchant service which
used to take place. With respect to the apprentices,
there were 3,000 said to be in the small fleet which
they now employed. He held in his baud a return of
the number of boys who had entered her Majesty's
navy for the last eight years. They amounted to 21,000.
Of these, 2,883 were accounted for by desertion; of
the remaining 18,117, only 2,947 rejoined the royal
r the first time, thus passing
hm
navy. But upon inquiry he found that this arose from
the circumstance, that when they went into the mete
chant they entered the men
f war ts madesavoyage,
sofo
merchant seamen, whereas they were
to ea e laevsrevis service
off
rtheya ands did
brought up in the royal navy. He rejoiced, however, at
the system of reciprocity which took place between the
merchant
have Hon. Gentlemen believe that they received so many
nse n from h navy aech at h i
navyoyl a
navy,
a wasv but he would not
supposed. At the
present time they had 20,000 seamen, but at the end of'
the war they had no difficulty in
the merchant the
getting 100,000 sea-
men. There were, however, from 60,000 to 70,000
in foreign countries, particularly
for a fact, that when there was
the two countries, many men
aAB rrmiuteimsr hi:l.2as
re; aoamf
na• nwt shaeer7b, iehntagwd e
ite n
came back and volunteered their services to her Majes-
ty's navy. It was well known that there were American
agents at Portsmouth, to induce men to enter the Ameri-
can service, and when, at the end of four years' service in
an American frigate, they came back with 100/. more in
their pocket than if they were in the British service it
was not to be wondered at that they went into the Ame-
rican navy.--(Hear, hear.) With respect to the regis
that practically it was a
-
ully eluded, and yet it was
ftararctieron oltf
hsaeadmbeene,nhesultecneeswe
so hateful to the men that it had driven many out of the
having only
yar that if the Bill brought in
say, that having considered
examined the arguments on
country.busht
o subject,
ssides,
e s He
he
and
nc
hdo
au
dl d
o
by the Right lion. Baronet (Sir James Graham) had
been carried out, that they should have been able to
man the navy as well and as quickly as they ever had
done.—(Hear.) •
Captain HARRIS agreed in a great deal of what had
fallen from the Gallant officer who had just spoken.
He, however, differed from him with respect to his ob-
servations on the registration of seamen. He believed
that the registry-office contained the means of manning
the navy without having recourse to impressment. If
there was a feeling against the system of impressment
throughout the country, it was better that they should
take steps now with respect to the manning of the
navy than on the eve of a war, when they
might be led to adopt hasty and crude measures. If
the Lords of the Admiralty did not take the subject into
their consideration he would introduce a measure him-
self next session. He `, 'eee'l that Sir James Stirling
was entirely erroneous in the evidence he gave before
the Committee on the navigation-laws, both with regard
to his facts and his plan of manning the navy. He was
surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for the University of Oxford should not only have ap-
proved of the measure of her Majesty's Government, but
of the denationalising of the merchant navy. lie could
have scarcely believed that a gentleman who bad held
such high office under the Crown would have approved
any such measures. They were going to give up the
system of apprentices. on the ground that it was a hard-
ship on the shipowners. The apprentices might per-
haps be in too great number, but he would suggest that
the plan of reducing
the number should be tried before
they gave up the system altogether. He believed that
they were able to compete with the Americans in the
construction of their ships, though be thought that Swe-
den and Denmark could construct vessels cheaper than
they could in this country. Ile therefore was of opi-
nion that the Government should get some advantage
from those countries by treaty. Above all things he
would advise her Majesty's Government not to alter the
law which required that at least three-fourths of the
seamen should be Englishmen.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir A. HOOD begged leave to enter his solemn pro-
test against the measure of the Noble Lord. He be-
lieved that the effect of it would be to undermine what
had always been considered the bulwarks of England.
He believed it was a mere measure of free trade, the
object of which was to cut down the navy. But what
benefit, he would ask, had free trade done to the West
i
Riding of Yorkshire itself? Were not the people there
the greatest distress? Were they to have no regard
to the interests of their colonies, which would be so much
injured by this measure, and which were already re-
duced to the greatest distress?
Mr. CLAY said he did not approve of the details of
the measure. As a free trader ho could not advocate
the interest of one class at the expense of another, nor
should he insist on the worn-out argument that inas-
much as the commercial marine was a nursery to the
royal navy, the navigation-laws ought to be considered
as the price which they paid for the greatest of all goods,
the national defence. He abhorred the system of im-
pressment, and he believed they never could have re-
course to it again, but at the same time the measure was
not satisfactory to him unless they could point out
some way of manning the navy in time of emer•
gency without having recourse either to the
system of impressment or the system of high bounties.
le believed that the protection or a particular class was