The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-23 00:00:00

THE STTN, LONDON*, TURMAN MORNING, JTTN 23, 1846.

IMPERIAL PARMA N T•'
HOrSE LOR DS. June 22.

The Lunn CiusczuLou took his seat on the Woolsack at
Five ~'clock.
SUFEitANNUATION TO POOR-LAW OFFICERS.

Lord STANLEY presented a petition trom the poor-law
guardians and other officers of the poor-law union of Warring-
ton, praying that superannuation allowances might be made to
poor-law officers.
FREE CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.

Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from a Presby-
terian congregation i❑ Durham, sympathising wan their Free
Church brethren in their present destitution of sites for build-
ing places of worship upon.
Lord PORTMAN gave notice that, on Thursday, he would
ask the Nut•ie Lord, the First Commissioner of Woods and
Forests, what Government proposed to du with regard to the
Metroplitan Building-' Act ?
The Matquis of LONDONDERRY announced his inten•
thin to oppose the third reading of the Liverpool and New-
castle-upon-Tyne Junction Railway Bill. Th, re were
circumstam-cs connected with that project which ought, he said,
to have beer, shown up to the country and the public. For in-
stance, cut of H:1,000 shares the managing committee had
engrossed 60,000.
Lard ti EA UM ONT said the Noble Marquis had been mis-
informed as to the char?eter of the undertaking.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY entirely agreed with the
Noble Lord who had just sat down.
The Alarqeis of LONDONDERRY explained. Bethought
the present scheme was a monstrous monopoly, when he found
that out of 80,000 shares 60,000 were taken by the Committee,
20,000 only being left to the public. Mr. Hudson was the
chairman of this company, and his object was to establish
a great monopoly in the north of England.
Lord BEAUMONT said that the Noble Marquis had ad-
mitted that he was not in any way connected with any railway
undertaking. Now, if the Noble Marquis had not made that
admission in so many words, his speech on the presentation of
this petition showed dearly enough that he could not be con-
nected with a railway.
INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT.
'Earl ABERDEEN laid on the table the copy of a recent
convention enteito into between the English and Prussian
Governments as to international copyright in he two countries.
CLARKE'S DIVORCE BILL.
On the motion of Lord BROUGHAM, this Bill was read a
second time.

THE CORN-LAWS.

Lord ASHBURTON rose, in eursuance of notice, to move
—" That whatever may be the alterations which it may be
expedient permanently to make in the laws regulating the
introduction of foreign corn, it is the opinion of this
House that the sodden importation of the large quan-
tity of wheat now in bond at a very low rate of duty,
while the prices are moderate anti the prospect of the approach-
ing harvest is promising, may be productive of great injury
and injustice to the cultivators of the soil of the United King-
dom, and that serae better provision against sue'n a calamity should
be provided than is cootaiard in the Bill now b, fire the blouse."
He did not intend, after the long discussion which had already
occupied the attention of their Lordships on the subject of the
corn-laws, to trespass long upon their attention, although
the subject was one of the most important character, iution.
anti one which demanded their most calm and deli- Lord ELLENBOROUGH agreed with the President
berate attention. He did not expect to be able to reverse the of the Board of Trade, that the effect would be contrary
decision to which they had recently come on tins question. to that intended by the resolution. He trusted that they
He could not say that the policy of the Government with re- would not delay the measure by passing this resolution, but
hard to the corn-laws met with his approbation—he that they would at once settee their minds upon the subject,
could not say that he became a party to this hasty, hazard- and ease the anxiety of the public, who looked forward to the
Out, and dangerous question—he could not say what passing of the measure.
might be the usage of the Parliamentary Cabinets; bth. The Earl of WIteKLOW said he would support the reso-
-111;s he could say, that he believed that there was no lotion, not with the view of throwing out the Government
object to be gained. This question was only of importance measure, as was stated by the Noble Earl (th ey), but because
as it affected the corn question. and he was, therefore, desirous he thought it one which, if carried, would have a most beneficial
of coming to a decision to-night. He was well aware that it „feet,
was asserted that there was a large quantity of corn imported Lord ASHBURTON replied. He did not wish to take up
into the United Kingdom. He was also aware that there was their time at any length, but, as a measure of justice to the
an objection on account of the taxes. Now, it was well under- agricultural interest, he had telt it his duty to propose the re-
stood that there was a large quantity of corn imp ,rted into the solution. He had, after the expression of their Lordships'
country ; and he had understood that a decision was to be come opinion on the Corn Bill, no desire to keep back that measure
to at the present moment. If this House were to be consulted, by anything he could say or do ; still there being great danger
he understood that a division would be come to on Monday or likely to arise from the sudden introduction of such a :arge 1
Tuesday next, when, perhaps a majority might determine the quantity of grain, he considered it was incumbent on them to
question. A return, lately made to their Lordships' House, guard against toy evil that might arise. He felt stroogly on
snowed the amount of wheat in bond was 2,000,000 guar- the point, as he thought the danger was very great. It was
ters. Since that time there had been a considerable in- for them to take it into their grave consideration and decide
crease in the quantity imported nto this country. It had been accordingly, and he would now leave it in their hands.
pouring in from every part, and merchants have been Their Lordships then di'. ided on the resolution—
buying immense quantities to meet the rumoured famine. Content
In one week only, in Liverpool, 56,000 barrels of flour were Not content
imported between Ist and 9i h June ; 51-vessels, laden with corn, Majority against the resolution. —23
had entered the various ports of the United Kingdom. Of this C USI Oil S' DUTIES BILL.
number 32 contained wheat, 5 barley, 12 oats, and 2 peas. On the motion that the House resolve itself into Committee
rho Noble Lord had said that even if this quantity of corn on this Bill,
were to come in, it would not make the produce of The Duke of RICHMOND rose to present a petition from
farms wholly unsaleable. From that opinion he totally a number of Macclesfield silk weavers, against those portions
differed, for a great sale of food was of much of the new tariff affecting the branch of trade in which thsy
importance to the country, and under the Noble Lord's are interested. The petition, which the Noble Duke read at
opinion, the imagined security of great abund ince would length, and commented on as he went along, was to the
not be a security against great dearth. The Noble Lord had effect that if the existing protection was withdrawn
on a former occasion said that they were mistaken in from the branch of trade in svoich they were en-
supposing that all this corn would come in ;it would not come gaged, it would be ruined. He also presented a
in at all because it cost the importers 60s. ; and what petition from the Spitalfields weavers, praying to be heard by
chance had they of this ever being brought in at that counsel at the bar of the House, against the repeal of the duty
price at which it could not be sold at a profit ? He on foreign silks. The Noble Duke said he had given up the
was sure that ten days would not elapse before ever
holder of corn would bring it in, for if they did not they would
Y conviction that the Corn Bill would not pass—still, though he
believed that 13111 would now pass, though it might be only fur
be caught by the decrease of duty. The latest price of corn a temporary period, yet taat was no reason why he should give
was 525. 10d., and by the new Bill, if that became the up the case of protection. He still adhered to that principle,
average of six weeks, the duty would immediately rise , and would take every opportunity of standi!.g up in defence of
because 535. was the rate at which, according to the native industry. He would support the prayer of the petition.
new Bill, the corn was to mime in at 4s. The He thought they ought to be allowed to be heard by counsel ;
average quantity of corn introduced into this country was that was all they required; and surely their Lordships would
550,000 quarters a year, and he wanted to know what pros- not deny that which had been allowed to the corporations of
petit they had now, in the present state of things, of requiring England, and other parties whose rights were about to be in-
five times that amount ?—( Hear, hear.) How could their vatted. The Spitalfields weavers had suffered much, but they
Lordships sanction such an injustice to the tillers had been ever loyal to the Sovereign, and their case, therefore,
of the soil of the country?—( Hear.) But he had only stated was one that claimed their especial consideration. All they
what had been the average of the last three years, and it might asked was, merely to be listened to for a short time by the
be said that in 1839, 1840, 1811, and 1842, there counsel which they had instructed to appear in their behalf.
was a considerable deal more corn wanted in this He would conclude by moving that the petitioners be heard by
country than 550,000 quarters. Let the House, however, counsel at the bar of the House.
look to the years 1832, 1833, 1834, 1835, 1836, and 1837, and The Earl of DALHOUSIE must, however ungracious the
they would see that the average for six tears running was under task, oppose the motion that had been made. He admitted
5 ;0,060, clearly showing that the larger quantity was the exeep. that in many cases counsel had been heard in
tion, and not the rule. He therefore entreated Noble Loris regard to particular measures, but these cases
to consider this question calmly, clearly, and dispassionately, were different to the one of the present petitioners.
and if they were determined to try a desperate experi- In the former the cases were when particular trades
ment Ist them do it cautiously and carefully, or not at all. or interests were to be affected by some special measure.
On a former occasion, when it was proposed to remit some whereas this was a general measure, only incidentally affecting
protective duties, steps were taken to prevent the evils that the pe,itioners as well as a great number of other individuals.
might arise from the sudden withdrawal of protection- In The Noble Lord here cited the eases in question, and
1822 the Act was pamd, and Mr. Huskisson kept the old against them referred to several circumstances in which the
law in operation till the prices had reached a certain amount. douse had ruled that measures of general policy could not be
Again, in 1826. that statesman let in 400.000 qrs. of wheat, or appealed against by any special interest. If the Spitalfields
about one-fifili of that which would be admitted in now, and so weavers were heard against the present measure, how could
(careful was he to prevent any violent oscillation of price that they refuse other trades that would be affected by the Bill, who
e provided that one-third of it should be introduced every might pray for a similar privilege? —(Hear, hear.) The public
month, thus extending it over the period of three months.
business of the country he was persuaded could not go on if
This was also while the duty was kept at 10s. a quarter. Such such a precedent were allowed.
was the cautiouseces of the Government of that day, when there Lord BROUGHAM considered that there was a great,
was no comparison of the change proposed with that now amount of difficulty and intricacy in the silk trade, with
before the House. He was persuaded there would be no diffi• which their Lordships could not be made conversant
eulty in making ark arrangement of this kind now. He had unless they were to hear same person, specially in-
tot much hope, however, as they professed a great deal of
-ympathy for shippers and manufacturers, but they had very ,trotted. The Noble Duke on the cross-benches had
made certain statements with reference to the amount
little sympathy for the poor cultivators of the soil.—(Heap, hear).
of protection. The petitioners had stated, that if they were
He complatned that their Lord-hips, in passing this measure, allowed to be heard at the bar they could prove that the real
appeared to act too carelessly with regard to the interests of the amount of the protection was reduced at least 50 per cent.
parties whom it would affect. He had occupied their Lordships' He (Lord Brougham) had nothing to say in opposition to the
attention longer than he could have wished; but he had principle of the Bill, but he should be sorry to exclude any in-
eonfined himself simply to facts. He had not occupied their formation from their Lordships. He had every confidence in
Lordships' attention for the purpose of calling upon them to
retrace their steps. Would to God that lie could persuade the integrity of the petitioners, and he did not think that it
was for any purposes of delay that they proposed to be heard at
them to do so. —(Hear, hear.) He had not the slightest hope the bar of their Lordships' House. He did not think that it
of being able to do so, but he begged of them seriously was any answer to the petitioners to say that they were not the
to consider what would be the effect of their only sufferers by the proposed measure. He should most cer-
decision on this question. Their Lordships should not, tainly wish to have the parties heard. He did not
in justice, interfere with the present presperous state know how his Noble Friend on the Treasury benches
of things unless a sufficient case were made out. The could make the statement that there was no precedent
Noble Lord concluded by moving his resolution. for the measure. In the year 1808, he (Lord Brougham)
The Earl of D ALHOUSIE said that he had al- had himself been heard as counsel at the bar
ways risen with great diffidence in making a reply of the House, and had been allowed to examine forty or fifty
in that House, but he never felt less difficulty than witnesses on the subject. He had made speeches on the sub-
at the prsent moment, for he firmly believed that a better case ject . A short-hand note of the proceedings was taken by Mr.
could not be made out than that which had been Blanchard, which was printed for the use of their Lordships.
submitted to their Lordships. Now it hail been stated The original might no doubt be obtained from the executors
'hat the quantities of corn now under bond was 1,500,000 and assignees of that gentleman. In the year 1812, it turned
marters, while in fact the whole quantity was only out that they were right in the conclusions to which they ar-
-9,000 quarters. He conceived that those facts sufficiently rived. Counsel were also heard aeairist the Municipal Corpo-
showed that there ought to be a protection for native industry. rations Act. He thought that when their Lordships were
(here ought at any rate to be son e security, and if this assing any great measure, they should not hurry it for-
-comity were given there was little doubt about the question ; ward without knowing ,he hearings and details of the case. He
sot whether the question were settled this way or that he con- consider, d the Spitalfields weavers were a most deserving body
ceived that some sufficient security should be given for the ob- of men, and that they deserved the kindest attention of their Lord-
eeryance of the compact. In the southern parts the scarcity ships. They were a numerous, ingenious, and industrious class
was owing to the alarming' drought ; from one end of Europe to of people. He had known them in prosperity, and he had se:n
•he other the same sad effect was felt. Any Noble Lord who them in their accumulation of distress. He had seen them at
vas in the habit of reading the newspapers might see that in the time when the Spafields' rioters held out great expectations
Poland. Russia, and other corn producing countries, the people to them—those riots which ended in the execution of the
were not in a state of deficiency, but they might sailor Cashman. They baldly and manfully bore up under their
Almost say in a state of starvation and death. It dhappoiated expectations. He would certainly vote in
sat also notorious that in the south of Europe, Natolia favour of the motion it it was pressed to a division.
end other provinces, the people are actually dying by the road Lord ELLENBOROUGH was always sorry to differ with
sole. He would. therefore, repeat the phrase, that nature, in his Noble and Learned Friend. He thought he was flushed
ter various elements, was arraying herself in a conspiracy against with the recollection of his early victories. He thought
-hem. The Noble Lord had stated that an immense quantity of such a proposition would tend to the destruction of all public
,torn would be forced into the market, such as had never been business. The Noble Lord had stated as a reason for hearing
ward of. He quoted the returns for the years 1844, 1845, and counsel at the bar, that their Lordthipa were not sufficiently
846. Why he did not quote the returns of the preceding years versed in the mysteries of the silk trade. Their Lordships
lie (Lord Dalhousie) did nut kn•w. He supposed it was nurivro might obtain more' information from the evidence before the
ancto, a sacred number. He would call the attention of the House than from any counsel who might he supposed to in-
House to the fact, that the year before, in 1843, there were struct th. it Lordships. If the petitioners were allowed to be
40,000 quarters of wheat imported, being more than double heard on bet att of the silk trade, why should they not be
the quantity imported in the year 1844. He could inform their
heard on the linen, the cotton trade, and the timber trade? If
Lordships, that during four weeks in the year 1842. un:ler the their Lordships allowed counsel to be heard at the bar on
',Listing law. there was admitted 2,100.00') quarters of wheat. behalf of the Spitalfields weavers against the Bill, it would be
Lord ASHBURTON— At what amount of duty ? their duty likewise to hear speeches from counsel representing
Earl of DALHOUSIE—The average price was from 645. all the trades that would be affected by this Bill. The Noble
ro 61s. 101-1., and the average duty was, he believed, ft rim es. Duke took open himself to say that if counsel should be
o I Is. per quarter. There was also admitted 2.017.11!0 guar-
allowed to speak against the Bill, he should pledge himself
ers. And this quantity of wheat, he it remembered, had been that they would not make long speeches. He (the Earl of
tlinitted at the same amonet of duty as that eroposed by seve- Ellenbortmeh) had the greatest respect for lawyers, but he had
al N Asks Lords themselves in the course of the late debaw• also a pa, ticular respect fa their power of makinglong speeches.
While his Noble Friend told them that they should not pro-
eed hastily, but should do something to let that large gush- —( Laughter. e He had suffered more than once from their
long speeches si=te he had been a Member of their Lordships,'
ity of corn out of bond, he would tell them that her Ma- House. To those long speeches of interminable length his
e'sty's Government had adopted such measures. They were Noble and Learned Lord wished to add evidence ; and if that
cell aware that, on the passing of any resolution affecting any was to be done with respect to the silk trade, why should
articular duty, a Treasury order was isrued for the admission their Lordships not permit a similar course to be pursued with
:if the article on the intended reduced price, bond being given respect to every branch of trade which the passing of this Bill
that in case of the measure not passing into a law, the duty might affect? That would, in fact, amount to an oteiruction
hould be repaid to the Treasury. He felt it necessary to to further legislation during the present session on this
jsub-
oppose the motion of his Noble Friend, for it was calculated ect.—(Cries of " No, no.") Practically it would be so. He
-o do more mischief to the holders of corn than it did good to ave the Noble Duke on the cross-benches every credit for
them. The resolution, if passed in ita g present shape, would ni)t having thrown obstacles in the way of the Corn-law Abo-
..efuse to admit corn which had been a long time in bond, un- lition Bill, but he did coroend that if their Lordships admitted
'as certain conditions were complied with, while the
this proposition, they could not restrain the operation of the
corn which arrived the week after the passing of mischief which it must involve. ..the most import-ant part of
he resolution wou:d escape the resolution altogether. the of the whole measure was submitted to the consideration
lie would repeat that if their Lordships adopted this resolution of at the commencement of the present session.
hey would commit a most unjust act, because, inasmuch as ,
Parliament.
they had heard something about precedents, but if they sync-
heir existing law or 1842, did not allow corn to be im- tinned the course proposed, he concluded that they would
orted until it reached a certain price, which, by his Noble
adopt a most dangerous course. If their Lordships agreed to
Friend's resolution, must be 60s, per quarter. His Noble this proposition they would establish a principle fatal in many
Friend admitted that in the course of his speech, although be cases to the process of legislation in the most important mat-
ossibly did not mean to have made th it admission.—( Hear, ters. He eonsidered the unnecessary delay that this course
rear.) If this resolution were passed, it would amount to an must occasion. He begged of their Lordships to reject the i
absolute prohibition. The people who were engaged in the mceion, and they would remove all obstructions from the pass ll
-
eorn trade had net expected such a course as that proposed by ing of a measure which would cause great relaxations, which i
is Noble Friend, and he (Lord Dalhousie) again contended t ha' he believed would be most beneficial to many important \
tit were passed, those individuals would be most seriously in- branches of manufacture.-4 Hear, hear.)
:ured. His Noble Friend had said, take time. Why, they had Lord BROUGHAM—My Lords, I beg to assure your Lord-
'seensdaiyvid‘e‘t ships that you need not fear any petitions from any other
•notells.—(llear, hear.) Time, therefore,hwe• not e
The individuals clement
discussing this question of the corn-laws for the lastle livee
body.—( Dissent. ) We can shut the door against them.
n
n(Cotri)e,smonfe‘titOiohn,hrehh.,:e)r_W:Chraievseofa
,r,igDhitvidtoe,
divide."
did
is the consideration of this
.cinuehst)inoan.
burdened by all the ex-
erned had kept their grain thole,
of the last five months. whilst
f' 0 doing during the w During The Duke of WELLINGTON—My Lords, before your
wnse o r question.
been discussing the corn Lordships decide upon this point I wish to • •
lacy had
House of Commons they bad not heard a the question is. It is that counsel should
remind you what
ne speeches in the
f the course recommended by the be heard in the
support 0 Committee upon this Bill in favourof the petition
vord whispered in
nor had a word been whispered
Spitalfields weavers. Now, my Lords, I beg Lordships
resolution of his Noble friend,
' House during the whole of to recollect that in the Committee
on
th that effect in their Lordships
e e forward this Bill will be cone
Noble Lord now ea . sidered the details of the Bill.
these discussion,. and yet the'our Lordships will examine
tud asked their Lordships to pass an ex list facto law. And the details of the Bill, and you will find
adopted by their duties there to be le • silk that thole are certain
his w:s not all, for if this resolution werevied upon and silk goods, of which the
Lordships that they would be details are to be given in the schedule N
Lordships, he submitted to their Lord,
the interest • ow, my Lordships,
eempletely deluded in their intentions to serve tt 1 h
te interest, of 1 beg to recall to your Lordships' recoll • '
recollection that you cannot,
he parties far whom the Noble Loud had shown so mu" consistently with- the common practice upon Bills of customs
nit= iszeration. Tiles' would even t-rjure toe Milers of grain lan a Bills of supply, make any alterations in the Commit tee on
in the most serious manner.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble
!these details without an infraction of the rules of proceeding
Friend had adverted to the case of 18267 AS but there was no re- settled and which have now existed for shout 2QO years in
t

semblance between- the two easeg. Grain in 18,66 was *4- the Iwo Houses. Now, any Lords, your Lordships have
misted because of the scarcity which teen existed, and there- been pleased, yOtir late discussions' in the Committee-
tore there was something like a plausible reason for ..the on file 'Corn Bill to adhere strictly to this question. Your
course which was adopted in the year 1826. Lordships refused to agree to amendments on the Corn Bill.
( Hear.) But he re:eatee, that for the last five months No doubt, had you agreed to those amendments, you would
they had been discusssing the question of the repeal of the have lost the Bill. My Lords, it is not or.iy the losing of the
present corn-laws, and that the ur.tavourable effects, if there Bill you are to consider, but what would be the consequence of
were any, had been produced long since.—( Hear, hear.) All making alterations in the Committees in the clauses of money
transactions with respect to corn in bond, external as well as Bills, Excise Bills, and Customs Bills. Your Lordships would,
internal, were now finished. He firmly believed that what- in point of fact, find afterwards that the proceedings in Perna-
ever would be the effect of the Corn BM now pending, the meat would be entirely paralised. These are the inconveniences
interests of the cultivators of corn would be best served by as which lam desirous to beg of your Lordships not to incur ; in-
speedy a settlement of the question as possible.—(Cheers, and conveniences which the public will feel most severely and most
ironical cheers.) He well understood the deer of the Noble particularly ; and I conclude that your Lordships will have
Duke on the cross benches, and of the Noble Earl opposite, the same feeling upon this Bill as you had upon the other
but he would repeat that expression of his opinion. He must, That whatever may be the effect upon your opinions by the ar-
however. admit that the conduct of the Government in pro- guments of cousisel, you '.ill not consent to make any alters-
posing by their 13,11 a delay of three years, was wise and just. tons in the details contained in this Bill, and in the schedule
—( Hear, hear.) He was certain that the worst thing that of the duties upon silk, but that you will persevere in voting for
could happen to those opposed to the corn question, would the Bill. You will establish a precedent by hearing counsel in
be to postpone the pas,iiig of the measure. There had been a Committee against the details of that Bill which must be at-
large importation of silk expected, and it was thought that tended with the greatest possible inconveniences, not only to
that supply would lower the price of that article ; but such your Lordships, by impeding public business, but also by in-
was not the fact, for since the supply that had been received, during you to listen to arguments for a considerable time to
the price had materially advanced.--( Hear, hear.) He which you were sensible at the time you would give
believed that the same would be the case with corn. He no attention.—(Hear, hear.) And thus you will
trusted their Lordships would not give their support to the have established a precedent whichmust be useless as to your-
Noble Lord's resolution. selves, but most dangerous to those who will feel the evil
Lord KINNAIRD said that what he stated on a former , effects of this precedent, by employing counsel to come hers to
evening was that he dill not believe there could be great quan- I plead their cause, which your Lordships must know can have
tities of corn imported at much less priers than it could be sold no avail in inducing you so make any alteration in the details
for in this country. Indeed he was sure that the supply would of the Bill. What 1 am particularly anxious to call your
be most deficient from abroad, and as a proof of it he had Lordships attention to is, that the motion is to induce you to
had a conversation with a gentleman from Holland, who in- listen to counsel in the Committee on the Bill, of which the
formed him that the supply of corn in that country was very object is to levy duties or customs or. different branches of
small, and that he had come to England to purchase a large i trade.
quantity. He held in his hand the report from Mark-lane of The Duke of RICHMOND—My Lords, I did not intend
that day; it stated that corn had advanced Is., oats the same, to rise again on this subject, but for the speech of my Nob'e
and that the supply was very short ;no panic was expected. Friend the Noble and Gallant Duke, and I must say that I
Earl GREY trusted that the House would not agree to the rise to protest against it.—( Great cheering.) if this is to be
motion of the Noble Lord, without at least something was the constitution of Parliament—(Cheers)—l will ask your
pointed out as the result of it. The Noble Lord (Dalhousie) Lordships whether it is not a mere farce upon legislation?—
had shown the injury which the resolution would do with re- (Vehement and long-continued cheering from the p otection-
spect to the corn in bond. Was this reso,ution a roundabout ist Peers)—to call on us, night after night, to speak upon a
way of throwing out the Bill which stood for a third reading Bill ; and then, forsooth, we are to be told that it must be
on Tuesday? passed because the House of Commons have said so.—( Great
Lord ASHBURTON—No. cheering.) My Lords, I contend that these petitioners have a
Earl GREY—The Nob:e Lord said, no. If he did not right to be heard.—( Hear, hear.) My Lords, I will not detain
mean to throw it out, why bring in such a resolution? It was you by saying more than that, if this is to be the
shown that such a resolution would, have the contrary effect to future course which is to be pursued by the
that intended, If it really was an intention to defeat the mea- Government, I hope you will alter your standing orders—
sure, why not make an amendment to the third reading ?If (Cheers)—and that they will say that the Queen's consent
it was not to throw it out, but to give time for a new measure and that of the Commons is sufficient. —(Cheers.) That twist
to be formed, why not have Moved that the third reading be be the result of this argument as ventured to be made in this
postponed for a fortnight, so as to give time fora measure to be House.—(Hear, hear.) If it had been made by a ycung man
prepared ? He looked upon this motion as an indirect' attempt who bad just run away from school, I should not have noticed
to throw out the Bill, and he hoped their Lordships would not it—(Laughter)—but when it comes from my Noble Friend,
sanction it. the Noble and Gallant Duke, I am bound to protest against it,
Lord REDESDALE said the Noble Lord who spoke last and I shall certainly feel it my duty to take the sense of your
had misunderstood the intention of the Noble Lord who had Lordships' House on the motion.—(Cheers.)
moved this resolution. It was said that the resolution would Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared—
do great injury to the importer of corn, but was the injury For the motion—Present
which would result to the grower by the passing of the Bill Proxies
not to be taken into account? He would support the reso-

-74

Against the motion—Present
Proxies 36
—7B

Majority against the motion 4.
On our return to the gallery we found
Lord BROUGHAM, on his legs, protesting against proxies
being used in such a question as that just under consideration.
Those who represented the proxies could not have heard the
arguments brought forward on behalf of petitioners, and, there-
fore, could not be supposed capable of forming any judgment
on the point whatever.
A desultory conversation then ensued from a question put by
the Earl of Charleville to dn. Duke of Buceleuch, as to whe-
ther the Noble Duke had heard the question put from the
chair, in which the Earl of Home, Earl of Haddington, and the
Earl of Dalhousie took part.
The Earl of WICKLOW thought that in these reforming
times proxies ought to be disallowed. At any rate, in the
question before them, he considered the privilege of using them
ought to have been waived.
Earl GREY concurred with the Noble Earl (Wicklow) that
proxies should be abolished, and if the Noble Earl would make
a motion for their abolition, he would support him; but as
long as proxies were allowed, he thought the present subject
was one in which they could be legitimately exercised. He
agreed with the Noble Earl, however, that in these reforming
times they ought no longer to be permitted. _
The Duke of RICHMOND thought the discussion ought
not to be protracted, as it was an inconvenient one. For his
own part he was always ready to submit to a majority, but he
thought that the decision just come to was a very injudicious
one, and that the privilege of using the proxies on such a sub-
ject, where a majority present were in favour of the motion,
ought not to have been exercised.
Lord STANLEY thought that if ever there was a case
where the votes of those who were present should have over-
ruled the votes of those who were absent, the present was one.
They who were called upon to decide in Committee had de-
cided that they would hear the petitioners by counsel at the bar
of the House, but their verdict was overruled by those who
were absent, and who, without hearing any of the arguments
which had been advanced, virtually pronounced that those
present should not bear the statements of the petitioners. A
stronger case could not have been made out.. It was not,
however, for the purpose of entering into this question that
he rose, nor to interpose any delay into going into Committee ;
but he thought lie should save the time of their Lordships if he
made a few observations then, rather than unnecessarily oc-
cupying their time on the individual articles. If he were de-
sirous of finding fault with her Majesty's Government, he
should have no difficulty in showing that that Bill was incon-
sistent with the other Bill they had brought forward in refer
rence to corn, and which a:Noble Lord:pronounced,er cathedra,
to be a perfect exemplification of the principles of free trade.
They should have treated the subject to which this measure ap-
plied in the same way as they proposed to do with agriculture.
"(ley would, if they continued in this principle, find the land-
owners calling for the removal of other restrictions. He hoped
they would not so stultify themselves by asking for the same
infliction of injury on others as was to be inflicted on them-
selves—he hoped not, for though the measure might for the
present succeed, they would find that the landed interest would
still continue their opposition to this measure. He would
warn the Government that they would find themselves in the
course of twelve mouths in a very dangerous position. Now
there was a reduction of revenue of 2,326,0301., and on corn
alone there had been a reduction of 357,000/. alone, and it was
with such a falling off they proposed to take away protection
from agriculture. This reduction of the revenue would be
much greater in the ?course of another year, and it will then be
seen how politic the measure proposed by her Majesty's Go-
vernment was, and how well it will have worked for the
advantage of the country. Now the importation of
silk since the reduction of duty on that article
was very great, and it was at this moment they proposed to re-
duce the duty still further. There was also to be a reduction
on timber. Again there was to be a reduction on boots and
shoes; and what would be the result if the benefit would not be
to the humbler classes, for it was well known that boots were
an article of luxury, and the advantage would ba to persons
who, like their Lordships, could afford to purchase them. In
1841 there was a duty of 2/. 14e. per dozen pair, and in 1842
that duty was reduced to 11. 9s. 4d. The increase of importa-
tion was from 4,821 dozen to 8,350, 12,220, 13,261, and
14,387 Was it at so increased an importation that they should
now reduce this duty from 1!.. :9s. 4d. to 16s. This was a
duty which would materially affect the workmen of this
country. The items he had given applied to mess' boots, but
they would apply in like manner to women's shoes. He
thought the duty was quite low enough as it
at present stood to enable their Lordships to pur-
chase that article of luxury.—( Hear, hear.) He
thought it right to make these few observations before the
House went into Committee, for he considered that, according
to the arguments of her Majesty's Ministers, it had been
shown that the import trade was most prosperous, and that
the revenue was good. That with such a state of things a
great reduction should be proposed required some explanation
from the Government, and he hoped it would be given.
The Earl of DALHOUSIE said, that in rising to answer
the question put by the Noble Lord (Stanley) he would en-
deavour to follow him as closely as possible. The Noble Lord
had stated that her Majesty's Government had introduced this
measure because they were favourable to free trade—because
they were willing to adopt the measure as a free trade question.
Lord STANLEY explained what he had said was that the
Government had not introduced it as a free trade measure,
but that they had on the contrary introduced it as a measure
favourable to protection—they had professedly introduced it
as a protective measure, whereas in reality its effects would be
the reverse.
Earl DALHOUSIE—There certainly were in the Bill
which he had submitted to the House many anomalies which
he would have wished removed. What her Majesty's Govern-
ment wished to do was, as they were about to remove all
Restrictions on fo ;d, to reduce also the duties on all other neces-
sary articles which pressed heavily on the poorer classes of the
community. The duties on woollen clothing were such as
pressed heavily on the poorer classes, and it was with a view
to their benefit that they proposed such reductions.
Upon articles partially or wholly manufactured, it was but
right that there must be duties levied, and he was decidedly of
opinion that a duty of 10 per cent. on manufactured articles,
was not to be regarded as a protective duty, but simply for the
purposes of revenue. His Noble Friend had asked him what
might be the loss of revenue from the repeal of the duties now
proposed ? On this point he would accept the amount of loss
stated by the Noble Lord. The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
in the other House of Parliament, had stated the probable loss
at about 700,000/. per annum, which was, he thought, a fair
estimate. If that were so, they should be guided by what had
taken place after the last alteration in the tariff, when there was
a large reduction the first year after the change, which
gradually became less till it righted itself. The following re-
turns would show how the tariff of 1842 had operated:—
In 1842, the reduction in the Customs were 1,350,000/ ; in
1843, the Customs were 20,200,000/. against 19,600,000/.,
the receipts of the year betore. In 1844, the duty was
21,400,000/.' instead of ' 20,200,0001.; thus showing that the
Customs had gradually recovered the loss occasioned by the re-
duction of 1842. The total reduction in Excise and Customs
thus afforded was 2,400,000/.; and the following was the result
in 1845, independent of the great benefit that had been con-
ferred on the country. In 1845, the total receipts for Excise
and Customs were 33,400,000/. against 32,100,0001. in 1842.
This showed that the revenue was gradual:y improved year by
year, while it had given a great stimulus to production, and
operated as a powerful incentive to trade and commerce.—
( Hear, hear.) The Government had not the slightest doubt
but that gradually the amount lost would be replaced by increased
consumption. The experience of the past was a guarantee for
the future. His Noble Friend referred to several other arti-
cles in which reductions were to be made, and asked what
good result would come from these. With regard to butter and
cheese, it would have been inconsistent to have reduced duties
in other articles of a similar kind, and left them standing,
hence it was proposed to reduce the duty on butter from 1/. to
10s., and on cheese from 10s. to 55. The Noble Lord had
talked as if these duties were of a long standing, or instituted
for protective purposes; whereas, they were net imposed till
the end of the war.—( Hear.) The present change was but to as-
similate the duties to what they were before the present duties
had been imposed. The reduction of duty on hu ter and'
cheese was made because these were articles that entered
tensively into the consumption of the people. Thesatmereeadrgexu--
ment applied to the article of foreign cattle, which the Noble
Lord had likewise referred to. The next point the Noble Lord
dwelt on was the silk trade. He said, truly the imports of
silks had been yearly increased, but he (Lord Dalhousie) did
not think the proposed alteration would much affect those im-
ports. The duties under the old law ranged from 30 per cent.
to as much as 3(10 per cent., thus often defeating the amyl= in
any revenue from these articles, and it was to get rid of this
anomaly, and to raise a regular revenue from this branch of
trade that the present duty of 15 per cent. was proposed.
While dwelling on this head, he would show the exports from
France to this country, in veriour years, from 1827 to 1843,
with the amount cleared out here for consumption :
Exported from France Cleared
out in rugland
for ion.
0 F.neland.
1827
1828
1834
1840 .... 625,000 lbs.
1443
484,000 lbs.
and the total exported from France to England from 1827 to
1843 was 6,332,0001b5., and clea.rokeut for consumption in
the country 3,10.1,000
lbs. ; showing -that the amount of that
cleared out for consumption did not extend to more than 50 per
teat. of the whole imported. Avart alto ethers therefore,