The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-25 00:00:00

SUPPLY.-IRISH JURIES.

On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. FAGAN rose to resume the adjourned debate on
Mr. Keogh's motion with respect to the constitution of
Irish juries. Ho said the time had at length arrived when
they must look the evils under which Ireland laboured
sternly in the face, and not delay the remedial measures
which she required longer. He did not think it would
be fair to allow the observations of the Right Ilon.
Baronet (Sir G. Grey) with respect to that Hon. Gen-
tleman's address to pass unnoticed. Though he differed
with the political opinions of the Hon. Member as widely
as the poles were asunder, yet he must be permitted to
say of him that he was nut the first to introduce a
spirit of acrimony into the debate. i It was true he
introduced some party feeling into the debate; but his
observations were directed against the Government and
not against individuals. Personalities were first intro-
duced into the debate by the Right Hon. Baronet, who
charged the Hon. Member for Athlone with having
praised the Whig Government of 1840, and of having
become a Conservative in 1848. If he had done
and really that was not the matter at issue before
the House—he had simply done that of which the
Cannings and Pitts of former days were not ashamed.
In his opinion the Hon. Gentleman was enable statesman,
and might rank amongst the best politicians of his coun-
try. He regretted the Hon. Member for Dublin .had
joined in the personal attack upon the Hon. Member.
The rule that had been carried out and adopted was a
perpetual and total exclusion of the Roman Catholics_
from the jury lists in Ireland, without any= fegEtrd',4o-.
their political opinions. The truth of the matter was,:.
that in consequence of the trials of Mr. Sthith
and Mr. Meagher, a good deal of excitement prevailed
both in Dublin and in this country upon the subject of
trial by jury, and this excitement naturally operated
upon the mind of the sheriff; in striking the jury
to try Mr. Mitchel.—(Hear, hear.) There could
be no doubt that the jury was unfairly selected,
and a preference was given to Protestants over Catholics
which had led to the creation of a good deal of dis-
content in Ireland upon the subject of Mr. Mitchel's trial.
He sincerely hoped that the discussion in that House
would have the effect of securing fair and impartial juries
for those prisoners who were now on the eve of trial, add
justice to the people of Ireland. Ho would give his
cordial support to the motion of his Hon. Friend.
Mr. H. GRATTAN likewise supported the motion,
taking the same view of the duty of the Government
officers respecting the religious and political sentiments
of those placed upon the lists, from neither of which
did ho think they ought to be rejected as jurors. Ile
would advise the Government not to irritate the people
further. The people were reduced to such a state now
that it was impossible to live in the country without
running the risk of losing one's life. The Government
would flatter themselves, indeed, if they fancied that
fever or famine were at an end. The people were living
at, in many case, ld. a day from week to week. He
objected to the manner in which the Bill for the suspen-
sion of the Habeas Corpus Act was passed. The Go-
vernment had no right to come down to the House
and take away the liberties of the Irish people, their
representatives being almost wholly absent from the
House, and solely on account of a few madmen having
gone about the country trying to excite the people, and
writing some violent articles in a couple of newspapers.
Ile was lately in the county of Monaghan, which was
stated to be a disturbed county, but in his opinion the
people there had no arms, and had not the slightest
ilea of a disturbance.—(Hear, hear.) It seemed to
him that the connexion between Ireland and this coun-
try was only to be maintained' at the expense of the
liberties of the Irish people.—(llear, hear.) The Go-
vernment, for the purpose of conciliating the people of

Ireland, ought to send back to them the Irish aristocracy,
the absentee proprietors, and the rents which they had
taken away. The proceedings in that House had dis-
appointed the country from year to year. When, then,
the Noble Lord found that the people of Ireland where
discontented, he came down to the House with a Bill to
deprive them of their liberties, and designated men as
traitors who were no more traitors than the Noble Lord
himself. The Noble Lord also stated that the Bill was
intended to put down a set of men whose object was
plunder. He repudiated the assertion that their object
was plunder. He was sure that was not the object of
Mr. S. O'Brien. He would assure the House that the
minds of the Irish people were poisoned by the London
journals as well as Irish papers. Referring to the
measures for Ireland which were before the house, he
said that there was one which could not pass, another
too late, and a third (the Incumbered Estates Bill)—
a Bill to enable pauper landlords to sell their over-
burthened acres—and which would he of no benefit
to the people of Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman concluded
by stating that there was an attempt made to sow civil
and religious discord in the northern part of Ireland, in-
asmuch as one of the employs of the Dublin Castle was
known to have said that if the repealer: of that part of
Ireland did not abandon the repeal cry they would be given
up to the Northern Orangemen.
Here the debate was for a short time interrupted by a
message from the House of Lords, to the effect that their
Lordships had passed several Bills, amongst which was
the Habeas Corpus Suspension (Ireland) Bill, which an-
nouncement produced much cheering.]
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he would not follow the
Hon. Gentleman who last spoke in alluding to his obser-
vations on the Bill which passed the House last Saturday.
If anybody doubted the necessity which existed for such
a measure he had only to read the intelligence which had
arrived that day from Ireland to arrive at the conclusion
that the House was fully justified in passing it. With
regard to what fell from the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Keogh)
who brought forward this amendment in reference
to the motives which had induced him to leave the House
on Jriday night, he should say that he left the House
not through any disrespect to the Hon. Gentleman or
the motion which he brought forward, but because he
himself had a motion of great importance to bring before
the House on the following morning, and because he
had to read several documents, and to consider well the
grounds which be should put forward for the introduc-
tion of so important a measure. He knew it would take
some time to inspect those documents, and he thought he
had better leave the House for that purpose than to at-
tend during the remainder of the debate on the Hon.
Gentleman's motion.—(Cheers.) With regard to the
motion which the Hon. Gentleman brought forward, he
did not think that, in alluding to the case of Mr.
Mitchel, he was justified in a statement that he made, to
the effect that the sheriff was an officer appointed by
the Crown. Technically, it might be said that he was;
but, in fact, he was selected out of three persons
named by the Chief Justice. Evidently, that was to-
tally different from his being an officer selected by the
Crown. With regard to the conduct of the sheriff, in
his (Lord J. Russell's) belief, the sheriff performed his
duty conscientiously. But the Hon. Gentleman said
that it was owing to leaving out of the list the names of
a great number of Catholics, and to challenging the
names of certain persons who were placed on the jury
list. It was asked also whether it was intended to pre-
vent Catholics and repealers from acting as jurymen. He
would answer—neither one nor the other was intended
to be omitted. Catholics were equally qualified with
Protestants to act as jurors on general questions, and a
man's being a repealer did not disqualify him ; bat this
question was with regard to the offence of a person who
declared openly that Ireland ought to be separated from
England ; that she should be a separate republic ; that
the Queen ought to be deposed from her authority and
title ; and that such a measure should be accomplished
immediately. The question was with regard to the per-
sons to be selected to act as jurors in such a case, whether
or not they were persons who would do their duty in
trying it—in fact whether they were likely to give a ver-
dict according to the evidence. If the Attorney-Gene-
ral thought that there were any persons on the jury who
were not likely to give a verdict according to the evi-
dence, and who were likely to give a verdict against the
evidence, he was perfectly warranted in challenging such
persons. As to the question whether that discretion
was properly used, that was a matter which neither he
nor the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland could enter into, for
they could not form any judgment as to the characters
of particular individuals; but it was clear that those
who published opinions in favour of the offender were
not fit persons to try his case.—(Bear, hear.) Such
was the case with regard to those who were left out of
that jury. The sheriff was responsible for his conduct;
but, with respect to the Attorney-General, he was him-
self a Roman Catholic, and he did not think that it
was to be inferred that he would by any act of his dis-
qualify himself from acting as a juror under similar
circumstances. These were the observations which he
had to make with regard to what the Hon. Gentleman
said in reference to Mr. Mitchel's trial. He did not
hear him state anything particular with regard to the
other trials. He had only then finally to say that he
could not agree, in the present situation of public affairs,
to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman. He did not think
that the House would be disposed to think that it would
be advantageous to enter into an inquiry on this subject;
butt in conclusion, L. would state generally, that there
was the utmost desire on the part of the Government,
the Lord-Lieutenant, and the Attorney-General to give
fair trials.
The motion was then put and negatived without a
division.
The House then went into a Committee of Supply
on the