The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-07 00:00:00

ADJOURNED DEBATE.

The adjourned debate was then resumed.
Mr. CAREW proceeded to address the House. He did not
intend to consume much of their time in stating the reasons
why he opposed the present Bill. Had her Majesty's Govern-
ment come. to the •House with remedial measures, while they
proposed the present measure, they would have had a much
stronger case to rely on than the prsent ; the result would
have been of a more satisfactory and consistent character.
The measures hitherto brought forward, instead of being of an
healing character, had been, generally speaking, coercive
and oppressive. It could not be denied that a good landlord
and tenant law was much wanted for Ireland ; as for a long
time the process of dispossessing tenants had been going for-
ward to a great extent. Evidence had been produced, showing
the deplorable results which had followed from this system of
clearing land, and the want of security that accordingly ex-
isted. The Hon. Member here read a number of extracts
and documents in illustration of these proceedings in various
counties in Ireland, showing that outrages, threatening notices,
and all the heartburings that for some time past had charac-
terised the relationship between landlord and tenant, flowed
from the system of eviction. To expect anything like peace
and order under such a system was impossible. The state of
Ireland in 1839 had been well described in the report of a
Commission then at pointed to inquire into it, and yet, though
sixteen years had passed away, the case of Ireland was as bad
as ever.—( Hear, hear.) The recent report of Lord Devon's
Commission amply established this. It had been clearly proved
that party had nothing to do with these outrages, but they
were entirely of an agrarian character. A Bill to change this
system would be of far more effect in healing the evils of Ire-
land, and in removing outrage, than any number of Bills
they could introduce and pass of a coercive character. But this
ought not to be all. The religious inequality that prevailed in
I: eland should also be done away with. Did they ever know
any other country where the religion of a minority was the es-
tablished religion, while the faith of the great body of the
people was proscribed, and its votaries called on to support the
establishment of the minority. The longer the equitable set-
tlement of this question was delayed, the greater would he the
difficulties of the country. They had in Ireland 6,400,000
Catholics, while the Established Church did not number above
800,000, and the other dissenting bodies about as many more.
It was not therefore for a moment to be barne that the great
body of the people should be treated thus. As Mr. Burke truly
said, the Church of Ireland was one Which the people of the
country would not ask the assistance of, either living or eying.
That Church had also got to be very unpopular with the people
of Ireland, because its bishops had opposed the measure for the
national system of education in Ireland. If the present had
been the first Bill on the subject, he might have been disposed
to consider it. But it was not so. Not less than seventeen
Bills of a similar character had been introduced since the
llnion.—( Hear, hear.) He would conclude generally by say-
ing that he did not think the Government were proceeding in
th• right way to conciliate Ireland, or to command its confi-
dence. They had departed from the impartiality that charac-
terised the Marquis of Normanby's Government, and as such,
had failed in all they had done to tranquillise that country.
The -O'CONOR DON said, that after the able and tempe-
rate speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for Cork (Mr.
O'Connell) none could doubt but that the measure was of a
most unconstitutional and arbitrary character. Neither had
it been shown that the measure had any real connexion with
the crimes sought to be suppressed. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man, the Secretary-at-War, had stated that the Bill was
mainly a Bill for the protection of the poor, who were subject
to be attacked at' night, while the rich were shot during the
day. From what he (the•O'Conor Don) knew of Ireland,
the Bill, instead of being a boon, would be looked on as a curse,
and operate most injuriously.—(Hear, hear.) A great num-
ber of markets in Ireland were held till a lite hour in the day ;
and people, if they attended them, could not avoid travelling
home after dark. But if this Bill was carried out, it would be
impossible for them to attend to their business at all.—( Hear,
hear.) The result would be, that the attacks against parties
would be directed in another way than they were at present.
In July last he had sat on the grand jury of the county of Ros-
common, when the state of Ireland was discussed, and a motion
made for a petition to the Legislature in favour of a Coercion
Bill. He opposed the ',resolution then, and it was stated that
the Government would not support a Bill of that kind. In
that, it seems, he had been mistaken, as the present
Bill would show. He opposed the Bill, because he be-
lieved it would be the means of aggravating, instead of
healing the evils of Ireland. Other resources might be easily
Proposed that would be afar more effectual ; but now, as ever
before, Ireland had been the victim of tardy legislation. What-
ever measures of a healing character the Government had to
eropose, the sooner it slid so the better, especially the Land-
lord and Tenant Bill. It was an astonishing, yet a melancholy
fact, that whenever Ireland was alluded to from the throne, it
was in regard to its evils and distress, and not to its prosperity.
—( Hear, hear ) It would be much more satisfactory and
useful to consider the resources of Ireland, and how to develop
and apply them in the best manner, than in proposing en rcive
and irritative measures like the one before them. —( Hear. )

Mr. M. MILNES said that in the observations be was ahout
to make he would confine himself strietly to the question, and
not launch into the sea of Irish politics. He looked on the
Bill before the House as a measure of police merely. and he
hoped a very temporary measure of police. And while it was,
he thought, required in the present state of Ireland, he hoped
other measures for the advancement of the social and moral
condition of the country would not be lost sight of.
He believed that the Government would be ready to receive
any suggestions from Hon. Gentlemen opposite calculated to
make this 13111 more effective. This spirit had been shown
during the progress of the Bill through the other Heuse of Par-
liament. /le fully concurred in the sentiment of the Right
Honourable Gentleman the Secretary at. War, when he stated
that he would never cotur
.t to make Ireland again the battle-
fieldthat
tohfiapßaritlyl it would not be allowed to go forth
.hadlibeeehnoPberou forward as an insult to Ireland.
The bitterest enemy of the brought
ement must admit that they
condition of that country.
ameliorate
erlei odruactien g the
Theyhad d oh t ed
succeededm uch too
party which for-
merlym." of
fhis support to this
continuance forc of which
exited in Ireland. Heth
as hht.
Bill, as a measure of policy,
he hoped would be but temporary. It mustrecollectedra that
the measure was intended mainly to meet the out
were committed at the night time. These outraggeesswwhlch
the most difficult to meet, and, therefore, an extraordinary
e
remedy was required. He did not mean to say that they could
eradicate those evils which had their foundation in the relation
which atpresent existedbetween landlord and tenant. To do that
a general change in the law must be effected.—(Cheers.) The
object of this Bill was to meet certain evils, which required
stringent powers for their suppression. He trusted, however,
that her Majesty's Government would not use any undue
severity in this matter. There were modifications which
might be made in the Bill, in the introduction of which he
should be ready to co-operate. He hoped, however, that:this
measure would be followed by extensive remedial measures.
No English Government could go on without such measures.
No matter what Government was in power, the next year would
be a most important one with respect to the prosperity of Ire-
land, and he trusted that much time would not elapse before,
with the blessing of Providence, they were enabled to wipe
away that great stain which rested upon this country with re-
spect to the past Government of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
Mr. D. BROWNE. expressed the gratification which he felt
at the moderate tone, and • the conciliatory spirit which
had been exhibited by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, and he trusted that her Majesty's Government would
follow the example of the Honourable Gentleman, and
that they would adopt the course which had been recom-
mended to them. He (Mr. Browne) belie`tred that the re-
dress of grievances would be the best remedy and preven-
tion of that crime which they all so much deplored. The
poor man's home, by this Bill, would be rendered a prison,
and compared to which the convict's dwelling was a pleasant
home. Th. poor man would never be enabled to return to
his home without fearing that he would be subjected to the
espionage which. this Bill would give emissaries of the law

the power of practising. There was a great deal of predial ex-
citement in Ireland, and this bad arisen from the system of Go-
vernment adopted toward; that country, and they could
never expect that excitement to abate until they removed its
cause. The legislation with respect to Ireland, from the time
of the union, had been for classes, and not for the people.
The different Governments had ranged Protestant against
Catholic; and such was the rancour of the contending parties,
that they appeared to forget that they had a country. One of
the implied engagements at the time of the union was, that
Catholic Emancipation should be granted; and
yet, for nine
and twenty years, the Catholics were excluded from political
rights. The enormities of the monster grievance of Ireland
—the State Church—had been continued without any attempt
at reformation. He said, while theywere advancingscience
of every description in this country, they were allowing the
science of .legislation in Ireland to remain stationery. He now
came to another branch of the subject, namely, the Coercive
Acts passed against 'reknit from the time of the union to the
period of Catholic Emancipation. For sixteen or seventeen years
Ireland was under the restraint of coercive laws—large
powers were given to the Lord Lieutenant for the purpose of
keeping the people in forceable subjection, and many offences,
which had previously been looked at in the light of misde-
meanours, were made criminal and transportable offences. The
system, however, proved unsuccessful, and, discontent still
continuing, Catholic Emancipation was,tatdily conceded, but
years I elapsed before even that measure was fully carried
into ,effect--( Hear, hear)—while other grievances of
a no less extensive and oppressive character were
still permitted to exist. The law of landlord and tenant, for
instance, was no new source of discontent. It existed in the
time of Lord Castlereagh ; and even then the people were
driven to acts of lawless outrage and desperation to protect
themselves from the tyranny of the landlord, or the cruelty of
his agent. A lawless combination, even at this early period,
was formed amongst the people, not to oppose or procure the
downfal of an; existing form of religion or legislation, but to
produce a social revolution in the country. It was instituted
for the purpose of compelling the landlords of Ireland to adopt
one particular principle in the letting of their lands. This
grievance, occasioned by the law of landlord end tenant, then,
was of no modern creation ; on the contrary, it had
existed for years; and yet, up to the present day,
the English Government had taken no steps, nor evinced
any disposition to apply any remedial measure to this baneful
and cruel system. There was no mercy and security for the
tenantry of Ireland. The landlord was all powerful, and
enuld cru.h his humble tenant in a single moment. This
was acknowledged by the ablest and largest circulat-
ing journal in England, and he for one asked the House
whether it was not high time that some remedial mea-
sures should be applied to this system. The Government
answered that they intended to bring forward remedial
measures, but refused, when called upon, to say what these
remedial measures were.—( Hear, hear.) Well. then, he
could tell them that this Coercion Bill would fail to have the
desired effect. It would in no way stop or reduce the extent
of murder in Ireland; and, like all former measures of a
coercive tendency, they might rely upon it this Protection for
Life Bill, as it was called, would turn out to be utterly useless
in abolishing the system it was directed against. If they
wanted to insure peace and contentment in Ireland, let them
base their Government upon justice, and not attempt to ad-
minister it through coercive measures. That policy had never
succeeded and never would, and Ireland could only be effectu-
ally governed by laws that were strictly in accordance with the
spirit of equity and justice.—( Hear, hear.) There was an-
other diabolieal system existing in Ireland, which ought to be
done away with—he alluded to the abominable spy system which
existed to a greater extent in Ireland than in any other country
in Europe.—( Hear.) It was well known that some of the
Government spies had concealed ribbon documents
about the persons of unsuspecting individuals, whom they
decoyed away from their homes, and by this means succeeded
in procuring their conviction for offences which they never
committed, and for which they were punished with transpor-
tation. Again, these spies often resorted to the detestable
devices of concealing arms in or about the premises of inno-
cent and unoffending persons, and afterwards laying informa-
tions against them for unlawfully having arms in their posses-
sion.—( Hear, hear.) Nay, similar devices were often resorted
to to procure the conviction of innocent parties who were un-
justly accused of the crime arson, robbery, or murder.—
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn (Lord
G. Bentinck), had the other night turned up the white of his
eyes in pious horror when a statement was made of the mur-
ders in Ireland, but what bad that Noble. Lord to say in de-
fence of the innumerable and cold-blooded murders that had
been recently committed in England? The Hon. Member
then proceeded to read a list of the murders that had been com-
mitted in England during the. year 1845, one of which was the
murder of an old woman by her son, a species of murder which
the Hon. Member remarked was not very prevalent in Ireland.

—( Hear' hear.) The total number of murders committed in
England during the present year was about forty, And yet
that year was, according
to English journals, a year of unex-
ampled prosperity. He did not wish to speak offensively of
the. English people; he was only
.enswering the statements of
the Noble Lord.the Member. for..Lynn.—(Hear, hear.) But
what would have been the number of murders in England
during the past year, if, instead of having been one of unex-
ampled prosperity, the people had Been reduced to the same
depths of poverty and misery as were the Irish people at the
present moment ?—( Hear, hear.) During even the past three
months of the present year, 1846, there had been a long list of
the' most diabolical murders eommitted in England, but if the
list was read in full, he doubted whether Hon. Gentleman op-
posite would appear so horree-stricken as they appeared to be
the other night.— ( Hear, hear.) Perhaps that arose from
their being accustomed to the. thing.—( Hear, hear.) Perhaps,
like the grave-digger in Hamlet, who said madness was so
common amongst those beside him that it did not excite any
wonder, murder was so common in England that the English
were not surprised at its alarming prevalence in their own
land. But, as he said before, he did not intend
to use any language of this sort for the pur-
pose of hurting the feelings of the people of this
country. Let the Government give the Irish people institu-
tions equally to those enjoyed by Englishmen and Scotchmen.
Let the Right Hon. Baronet at the bead of the Govern-
ment come down to the House and tell the Irish Members that
he would give them equal franchises.—( Hear, hear.) Let
him came down to the House and tell them that he would not
tolerate the difference which at present existed between Ireland
and England with regard to the church revenues—let him
come down and say, that he would no longer suffer (if he
could possibly prevent it) the monstrous anomally which ex-
isted in Ireland of all the ecclesiastical revenues of the country
being handed over to the church of the minority.. While in
England arid Scotland those revenues were appropriated by the
church of the majority.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He would
entreat the Right Hou. Baronet—and he addressed him with
diffidence and with the greatest respect, and never had he used
either in that House or elsewhere, as Hon. Members on his
side of the House would attest--( Hear)—any but the most
respectful language concerning the political conduct of that
Right Hon. Gentleman—he would ask him to look to the
state of Ireland, and reflect within his own mind whether
coercive measures would tend to tranquillise Ireland ?—( Hear.
hear.) Let him look to the anomalous condition of her peo-
ple, whose history was unexampled in the history of any coun-
try, while the abundant contents of her granaries were ex-
ported to this country.—(Hear, hear.) Let him look to the
enormous rents which were extorted from the people for the
purpose of swelling the absentee tribute, whilst the people
were in a state of starvation for want of • food and employment.
Let him look to the houses of her nobility, which had been
desecrated to mean and lowly purposes, her streets
deserted, her shopkeepers - bankrupt, her custom-house a
depot far English merchandise—( Hear, hear)—her
exchange a delusion—her bank a monopoly and her very
Castle, under the present state of things,
a place of despotism.
—( Hear, hear.) He would repeat,, let the Right Hon Baronet'
look at this state of things, and let him ask himself whether,
by passing this measure, he was doing what was best calcu-
lated to maintain inviolate the legislative union of England and
Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Let him, if he wished to bring
peace to Ireland, pursue an opposite course ; let him, like a
great statesman, increase the prosperity rather than irritate the
feelings of the people for whom he was appointed to legislate.
Let him encourage the introduction of such measures as would
form the basis of the peace and prosperity of Ireland. Let him
—to use the expression which he had heard used in that House
on another occasion—let him unite the philosophy of Watt
with the policy of the son of Chatham, and make a Tweed of
the Irish Channel. Let him do that, and he would add another
laurel to those which already graced his brow.—(Cheers.)
Lord MORPETH said that he had listened with consider.
able attention to those Hon. Gentlemen who had taken part in
this debate, and he was. prompted to do so because he had
been, on a-former occasion, called• upon to take a part in the
public business of Ireland.; and he would, perhaps, be excused,
if he interposed, for a very short time, in the .debate now be-
fore the House,—(Hear, hear.) He would 'say for a very
short time for many reasons. Idthe first place, he bad no
wish to say anything with 'respect to the general
policy which he should wish to see pursued to•
wards Ireland. In the next place, the present state
of pablic business would make him wish to avoid any responsi-
bility for unnecessarily :protracting its further progress.
( Hear, hear.) But, most of all, the reason which induced
him to speak at all on this question was, that he had previously
expressed • himself. most favourably of the Irish character.
From his own recollections, he was too sensible of the great
difficulties of those who had to administer the government of
Ireland, and the heavy responsibilities under which they lay
with regard to that country ; and he, therefore, naturally
shrunk trom impeding the measures which the executive au-
thoritt at any time, backed by evidence of undeniable effects,
might allege to be necessary for the purpose of furthering the
peace of her people. Het could not but depict to himself the
horror which must have possessed the member's of the then
Government when intelligence reached them of the murder of
Lord Norbury. He did net state that case for the purpose of
arguing that the rank of the murdered person should make a
diff•rence in our sympathies, bet beeitiie it happened at a par-
ticular time, and when he held office under Government. He
was quite willing, and quite anxious, to limit the period and the
penalties of the present measure, and he would always contend
that such measures as these should be strictly in accordance
with the exigencies, but he must say that ho could not con-
scientiously object to this Bill in toto. He was ready to admi,
that it would have been preferable if measures of permanent
redress and conciliation had been brought in, either antecedently
to, or concomitant with,
He measures of harthimself .hness and °ppright
m-
of a full discussion of the details of this measure when it had
reached Committee; but he would not take upon himself to
reserved the
sion.---t Hear, hear. )
hear.) Upon former occasions he had
his testinemy to what he considered
human life.—(Hear.
lriemfuttseed, least, in
Qenuteeerntain ,sGthoeverpnrrpo
miensittimsromteoage, fora verytivieastef
those
they alleged to he necessary for the safety of
powers which
not refrained from bearing
representatives
,inpatience,
He v,a
in
of
many shining qualities in the Irish character--( Hear, hear.)
He had riot even refrained, when it was even calculated to
nisen called
w ituhr
then to
give offence—when it differed altogether from the opinions of
many of his own countrymen, and even when he had felt him-
'elfjoi
viewsn and
ef vote
seve
several
ao
theay
which was not in
s
ti
the Irish people—when he fat himsylf called upon to speak in
inhonesty
f terms
de
dealing
gh e
between character
rn man
nf the
and
m lrish
an people.
quite as ready, and more ready, to allow that in many point
s—
resignation almost intolerable, in want and -riva t
p ion—(Hear,
hear)—there was a pre-eminence of Irish virtue, p
be-
yond that of any other nation on the face of the ea Irhobabli:l hear. ) And further, his Hon. Friend who had • r ear,
his speech, had dwelt upon the number andust concluded
crimes committed in England—( Hear ).....ana atrocity of the
peth) went with him, and he was willing to admit. that
Mor-
be quite easy to pick out crimes in England equally thit might
their details to those which had been committed in Leland
in
and he would go further, and say that therei.° and
;
in the Irish murders an absence of that wantonnesswas
which characterised the murders committed in this country.__
( Hear, hear ) There appeared to be in the murders rcoY.—
mitted in England an absence of that strong impulse which
would seem to excite the generality of the unhappy individuals
that committed murders in Ireland.—( Hear,i hear.) But it
was not the number or the guilt of the Irish
crimes, so-much
•
as the system of the Irish crimes, and the consequences they
entailed, and the general insecurity which they had to deal
with in legislating for Ireland. In connexion with this part of
the subject, he could not fail to be struck with what had been
impressively stated by the flight Hon. Gentleman the Secre-
tary-at. War, that what should have most weight with
the
House in the consideration of this measure was the number of
threatening notices, which had increased in Ireland during the
last eighteen months to 2.320. Why what were those notices
which stood. hanging over the life of a man? They were notices
of terror, and made his whole existence a fear and a misery.—
( Hear, hear.) It might be asked where the details of this Bill
calculated to effect their cud? He had great doubt h th
w e er

some of them were so.—( Hear, hear,) But he would say let
them consider them, for in such a state of things he dare not
refuse the proposal to legislate altogether.—(Hear. ) With
respect to the general policy upon which the Government of
Ireland ought to be based, he was willing to go as far as most
men he believed. He was a party to the introduction
,of the
memorable appropriation clause— (Hear, hear )—and he stated at
the time his opinion that its rejection would be an injustice to
the great bulk of the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) ,At
the same time he frankly stated, that that, measure of itself was
not calculated to give permanent satisfaction to the Irish
people.—( Hear, hear.) Whilst he was in office he proposed,
in conjunction with his Noble Friend the Member for London,
to increase the franchise to the Irish people, and to make them
equal in that respect to English and Scotehinen. They also
proposed an adjustment of Irish property, and Irish poverty,
and it seemed to him that what Ireland wanted in a great
degree was the improvement of the law of landlord and tenant.
And most cordially did he hope that the measure which was
contemplated by the Government would, when produced, be
found to be formed in a wise and equitable spirit, and that the
enactments would be calculated to meet the desired end.—
(Hear, hear.) Upon this point he could not dissemble his
opinions but that the waste lands and bogs of Ireland might be
made more valuable for augmenting the resources of the
untenanted When, present
upon
thend uone
n o w hand, troked , country and improving the condition of the people.—( Hear,
hear.) It was true the Ministry of, which he formed a part did
a such e
the i
a
other o
hand,aa oo f f
when
land
e.
net propose any measure themselves of that nature, nor was he
at
tsuggesthaenyh uponthed
dals r plans r
e
they had such immense masses of the people without
the means of turning to profitable use the bands and
the strength which God had given them, he thought it
might be possible, either by the wisdom or kindness of man to
devise some means of turning the present state into the ele-
ments of future benefit to the country.—(Hear, hear.) One
more word with reference to the Bill then before the House.
Whenever the time should come at which the Bill should
arrive at its first reading, as a matter of course a considerable
time must elapse before it can reach or pass through its subse-
quent stages. If in that interval any improvement in the
state of crime should take place, from any cause which might
be brought into operation, or the exercise of the ordinary
powers of the law, or the exertion of the military and the
police— not, I hope, always henceforth to be employed, as they
had heard in some of the speeches of Hon. Members—when
the verdicts of justice are given fearlessly and righteously— and
he saw that the two men who were charged with
the murder of Mr. Clarke had been recently ap-
prehended—(Hear)—if the softened and tempered tone of the
discussion in this House—the unanimous language of warrants
in which these cowardly assassinations had been branded, not
only by the organs of her Majesty's Government, and by the
ministers of the gospel, but by the favourites and leaders of
the popular mind of Ireland ; if, above all, the beneficient and
overtaking hand of Providence shall have checked in any way
the career of Irish crime, and shall have restored comparative
security to property and life in that country, he then hoped
that her Majesty's Government would not consider it at
variance with their dignity or their sense of duty to meet this
improved manifestation in a corresponding spirit, and to dis-
pense either with the whole or partial provisions of the Bill
now under discusssion.—( Hear, hear.) If otherwise, he
could wily bow to the necessity of the ease. He was, however,
convinced that for the government of Ireland there was a better
way than that.—(Cheers.) He remembered, in the first
speech he made within the walls of the then Parliament—he
was sorry he could not quote a better authority— it was on the
subject of the Repeal of the Catholic Disabilities Bill. He
said upon that occasion, " We have made England great, we
should now study to make Ireland happy."—(Loud cheers.)
Since that period the greatness of England had gone on ad-
vancing, it perhaps never culminated to a higher point than at
present.* All parties will be inclined to agree with him that
there still remained a vast amount of indebtedness to us to
make Ireland happy.—( Prolonged cheering.)
• Mr. P. SCROPE was not surprised that an Irish discussion
should be so discursive as the present had been. He deplored
that so mnch attention had been paid to political subjects, which
had no connexion whatever with the matter in hand. The
attention of the House should be directed to the prevention of
crime, and the preservation of life and property in Ireland. The
Hon. Member proceeded to read same extracts from minutes
of evidence given before the Poor-law Commissioners of Ire-
land, as tending to illustrate the frightful state of society in
that country with reference to agrarian crimes. The lion.
Member then went on to remark upon the anomalous state of
Ireland—the inhabitants of that country were remarkable for
their social and hospitable feelings—they would share there
last potato with their distressed neighbours, but they
always sheltered and protected the murderer, they
looked upon him as a martyr, and considered it
their duty to support his surviving relatives. They
thought themselves entitled to resist the law of the land,
which they considered their enemy rather than their friend.
What he urged was, that the law protected property while it
abandoned those who lived on the property. The system of
extermination—of removing the people off the face of the
land—must be put an end to. He wished to know where
was to be the limits of that system ? In the present state of
the law, if the landowners of an entire county chose to eject
the tenants from their respective properties, the law of the
land must come to their assistance, though a wide-spread
rebellion should be the consequence. He wished, therefore,
to see the introduction of a remedy. The Coercion Bill before
the House, could not surely be considered a remedy. The
Right Hon. the Secretary-at-War said, a few evenings ago
what startled him. He said that this Bill would
eradicate the evil. Now, in his (Mr. Scrope's) opinion this
did not show the Right Hon. Gentleman to be very well ver-
sant with the evil which he proposed to remedy. He (Mr.
Scrope) always had resisted similar measures. In 1835, when
a Bill of a like nature was brought forward, he proposed an
amendment, and would not consent to its becoming law unless
some measure of a conciliatory kind were to accompany it.
The Secretary-at-War had also said that bold and ample mea-
sures were in contemplation for Ireland. He confessed that he
did not place much confidence in these promises, and he warned
them that the social state of Ireland was in a perilous condition,
and every exertion should be made to prevent the smouldering
elements from exploding with the most destructive violence. What
he would ask, became of those individuals who were ejected?
They had no resources, but to perish from want, or from fever,
the consequence of want. One point he would wish to add—
he denied that these outrages were all connected with land.
They were, in his opinion, as much connected with want of
employment. Give the people employment—let them secure to
them the means of living, and if they did, they would have no
grounds whatever for passing Coercion Bills, but they would
bind the people by the strongest ties to the Government of the
country. How had they altered the condition of the country
by the Poor-law Commission ? They had done a little by the
temporary relief, but nothing was done to alter the condition of
the country—nothing was done to do away with the cause of
agrarian disturbance which the present measure was sought
to affect. The remedy of the Government would, however,
fall short of the intended result.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.")
The duty of the Government was to adopt such a measure as
would allow the tenantry to live out of the land which they'
toiled to bring into cultivation, and render profitable to the
landed proprietor.—( Hear, hear.) What caused this agrarian
outrage?—( Hear, hear.) It was caused by the dread of desti-
tution which the tenantry had of being turned out of their land
by the proprietors of the soil at their will and pleasure, and
until this was remedied there could be no hope for the. peace
and prosperity of Ireland.—(Hekr, hear.) In the reign of
Henry VIII. coercion was tried, and it was an historical fact,
that about 70,000 persons were hanged. Did this:change the
state of things ? Ever since that period the landed tenure of
Ireland had been the cause of more commotion than
any other evil with which the country had
been afflicted. ( Hear, hear.) He called upon
the House to look at the state of Ireland—to judge of the 11.-
1 medies which were called for—and, as they valued the prospe-
rity of that country, to apply themselves to the real remedy of
the state of society in that country. What was it that caused
the French revolution? Was it not the encroachments of the
nobles, the tyranny of the landed proprietors, backed and for-
tified by the coercive laws, that paved the way to all the scenes
that resulted ?—( Hear, hear.) He warned the House that
this state of things could not continue. These coercion Bills
could not always repress the just aspirations of a people. In
their own day they had revolutions in Prussia, Austria, the
n9rlh of Poland, and indeed over the whale of the north

of turope. The peasants had been raised from a state
of serfdom to the blessings of freedom, and (lid they think
that Irishmen would for ever shut their eyes to these facts?
It was impossible for any one to look at the Irish who existed
in England, without being convinced of their industry, and he
would add their perseverence ; and it was only the system
which prevailed in Ireland that repressed these virtues. If they
had had a fair modicum of justice from their landlords—if the
land tenure had been different—then the writers who were so'
ready to detail the idlenesses and the apathy of Irishmen would
have Lad a different tale to tell. It should be the endeavour
of Government to pass measures which would give peace to
that country. The Hon. Member then read extracts, exhi-
biting the state of Ireland at present. and arguing that it was
a doubtful question whether the Whiteboyism that unhinged
society, or the exterminating system of the landlord, were the
greater evil. If they took from the Irish peasantry their plea
of poverty, the necessity of dying in ditches as on the estate
of Gerrard, from that moment they would secure the alle-
giance of the Irish people. If they wished to put down agrarian
outrages, they had only to give them the means of living.
Lord GEORGE I3ENTINCK said that he did not wish to
express any sympathy with, or any palliation of, the long cata-
logue of crimes detailed to the House. The difference be-
tween crime in England and crime in Ireland was, that in
England, when crimes were committed, the sympathy of the
Engli,h people did not go with the criminals. —( Hear, hear.)
The crimes upon which they had to decide were crimes with
which the people of Ireland had shown great sympathy, and it
was because of the difficulty in detecting these crimes, and
bringing the perpetrators to justice, that this
.difference
existed. It appeared to him that her Majesty, in calling the
attention of that House to consider of and devise measures fur
increasing the security to life in Ireland, and the more easily
bringing to justice the perpetrators of these crimes of desperate
assassination, informed the House that the had, with deep re-
gret, of
the
,
to
support
first reading of this Hill, the more unconditional it was made ;
mut it was because he thought that in this measure the House
,ec, rs observedonee in ththaattco theseun country.
crimesHe hadw a of
prepared late become
would slims mercy, not only to the 4andlord and to the magis-
trate, but to the tenantry of Ireland, that he was disposed to
support it. When they were charged, and himself in particular
charged by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Wickham,
who spoke second in that debate on Friday night last, with coming
down to the House with only superficial information, and hasty
statements, gathered from two or three slips cut out from news-
papers, he begged leave to say, that in the first instance he re-
ferred to her Majesty's speech from the throne, and he might
also have referred to the answer to that speech from that
House, in which they (the Commons of England), humbly
assured her Majesty, that they, together with herself, had
eliserved with deep regret the commission of crimes of deliberate
assassination in Ireland, and promised obedience to her gall..
mantis, when she told the House it was their duty to consider
some measure for the more effectual preservation of life, and
the more surely bringing to justice the perpetrators of these
crimes. They did promise to her Majesty to give their com-
sideration to a measure of that description, and he conceived
that the honour and good faith of the House of Commons was
therefore pledged to a measure of that description. He did not
for one consider that either the party around him or he him-
eel were in any way bound to support all the clauses that
were retained in this measure. lie assured the Hon. Gentle-

man the Member for Wickham, in answer to the charge he
(the Member for Wickham) had brought against him, that he
would not have been so anxious to support this measure had it
not been that the consideration that it was connected with the

corn.laws induced him to do so. He was able, both
for his:friends around him and himself, to refer to the conduct
of their . whole lives to prove that they had supported those
measures when Government called upon them to do so. He
supported the measure of the Government of 1833, of
a description similar to the one now before • the House,
and the measure then introduced, and which he then
supported, was stronger than the measure then before
the House. And he took leave to say that he thought that
that measure was more effectual for its purpose than the one
then under the consideration of the House. He believed the
measure then introduced, on the 29th January, passed both
Houses of Parliament, and received the royal consent. He
must say that he did not think it was urging on the House to
pass a measure of too great haste, it wss announced from the
throne 411 the 22d January, and they had now reached the 6th
April, and still had not read the Bill a first time. He should
not go again into a detail of all the crimes committed in
Ireland,Hon.Gentousehmoackn thhaedteLltinaielesdoftothtahte HHoouulte w. hicHhetie
thoughtßight
I whet* he eaw all the great leaders of party aupportipg the

measure elsewhere, it was hardly just to the House, that those
on his side of the House should not support the measure of
her Majesty's Ministers. His Hon. Friend, the Member for
the West Riding of Yorkshire had referred to other remedial
measures which he thought should be introduced into that
House. He had referred to measures for the extension of
municipal franchise, and-of Parliamentary franchise in Ireland,
and had expressed a desire to . see the other franchises in
Ireland put on the same footing with the franchises in
England. For himself, he confessed he could not see in what
way the extension of political franchise of any description in
Ireland would be at all any remedy for the evils proposed to be
relieved by this measure. But when his Hon. Friend referred
to other matters and said that he thought that the relations
between poverty and property in , Ireland required some new
arrangement, he cordially concurred with his Hon. Friend,
when he saw that Ireland, with eight millions of population, re-
ceived poor relief but to the amount of 256,000/.
with
annum —( Hear, hear.) Whilst in England, which with
:Wales, _contained - sixteen millions,
,nearly five millions was
spent in succour to the country. He must confess that he
cordially concurred with his Hon. Friend in thinking that the
relation between poverty and property in Ireland required some
new arrangement; he believed that some better provision must
be made for the people of Ireland. There was another point
immediately connected with this, to which he would take leave
to refer, and that was to the system of absenteeism in Ireland.
He could not disguise his firm and lawful conviction, that many
of the evils of Ireland arose from the system of absent land-
lords receiving their rents and spending them in another
country. He was well aware, that in alluding to these doc-
trines he was not subscribing to the doctrines of political
economy. He was well aware, that according to Mr. M'Cullock,
it made no difference to Ireland whether the landlord spent his
money in Dublin, in Bath, or in London, but he confessed he
had always been at a loss to understand such doctrine. He
believed that the first ingredient in the happiness of a country
was, that the gentry, who received the rents, should spend
their fortunes amongst the people. He could nothelp thinking
that some arrangements might be made, connected with the
levying of the poor-rates in Ireland, in which absenteeism
might be made more liable. There was an arrangement in
respect to tithes, by which two tithes were levied—the one was
the ordinary tithe, and the other was only levied as long as the
land remained cultivated. He thought that such an arrangement
might be applied to the poor-rates in Ireland, and also to all per-
sons, being land lords,w h o absented themselves from that country.
He was well aware that another remedial measure might be
proposed, which, notwithstanding what had been imputed to
him by the Right lion. Baronet, the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, namely, that he was treading upon
dangerous ground, and that what he was now saying might
be written in letters of blood in Ireland—notwithstanding all
this, still he would say, that a measure might be introduced
of a nature very different from that which was now before
the House, and which would be much more likely to have the
desired effect in that country.—(Hear, from the Opposition.)
The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home
Department had, in his (Lord G. Bentinck's) opinion, in in-
troducing this measure, propounded doctrines which he (Lord
G. Bentinck) conceived much more likely, if carried out, to be
written in letters of blood in Ireland ; because the Right Hon.
Baronet had stated that unless he should succeed in carrying
his measure for the reduction of the protection upon food, there
would be an equal want of protection for life in that country,
which was, in tact, saying in other words that unless they had
free trade in corn there should be free trade in assassination.
And what did this argument amount to after all but
to this, that crime in Ireland was deemed of such
small amount that it was made dependent upon
the price of food. He had taken the trouble to
examine minutely into the state of crime in the five counties
in Ireland which the Right Hon. Baronet had already adduced,
and he had found that the amount of crime in those counties in
the three months preceding the month of August—a period
when provisions were cheap and plentiful—was greater than
that which existed during the alleged period of the potato
famine. In fact be had foetid that the number of crimes in

those five counties, in the three months preceding the month of
August, amounted to 1180, while those committed during the
famine period did not exceed 806. What then, he would ask,
had the state of crime in Ireland to do with the potato famine,
or what justification for Ministers was it to say that unless
this House agreed to pass a measure for the repeal of the
corn-laws it woul4 be of no use to pass the present Bill.
When he saw that such men as Sir David Roche could not re-
fuse to eject the widow of one of his tenants while her husband
was lying dead in the house to gratify a lawless band ; when he
found that men who were the best landlords, . and who were
distinguished for their attachment to the tenants of Ireland,
such as the Hoe. Member for Meath, could not walk over their
estates without being armed, he thought he and his party were
justified in supporting the measure. The Arms Bill of 1534
had been productive of beneficial effects, and this fact alone
would have justified their support of the measure. These
were the reasons which induced his Hon. Friends around him
to support the measure whilst they were free and open to im-
prove the details. They did not deem that they were enter-
taining any measure that would prove tyranical towards the
people of Ireland, nor did they deem that in support-
ing the measare it would be inflicting injury on the
Irish people, but they rather thought the measure
was absolutely necessary in order to protect Irish improvements
of every description, and in order that the hand of industry
might not be arrested by the hand, of the assassin, and it was
for these reasons that he and his Honourable Friends around
him supported this measure.—( Cheers. )
Mr. J. O'BRIEN moved the adjournment of the debate.
Upon this motion the House divided, when there appeared—
For the adjournment
Against it
Majority against the adjournment .........-46
On our return to the gallery, we found
Sir R. PEEL addressing the House. We understood the
Right Hon. Gentleman to consent to the adjournment till
this day.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE would make one more appeal to
the Government to reconsider this Bill. It was quite clear,
from the determination of the Irish Members, that they would
not relinquish their pr.vilege of taking their notice before the
order of the day. That would put off this measure and the
Corn Bill until after Easter, and when they met upon it
after Easter there would be a• further delay of three or four
weeks. He thought that the best way was at once to propose
that the adjournment be to that day three weeks. The measure
would lose nothing by the postponement.
Sir R. PEEL said he had already stated that it was his
wish that the debate should be adjourned till to-day, and he
would this evening announce on what day he should move that
it be resumed, and he hoped that the House would then support
him.—( Hear.) He was quite aware of the great power pos-
sessed by a minority in opposing a measure, but be considered
I himself responsible for the delay which might be occasioned by
Honourable Gentlemen on the other side of the House. He
was not disposed to put an end to the discussion, but he cer-
tainly should give the Hon. Baronet his decided opposition.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE could assure the House that since
he had first occupied the House on this question, he had a bona
fide wish to save, not to waste, the time of the House—( Hear,
hear) —and he must therefore deny the rigkt of the Right Hon.
Baronet to make use of the expressions which he had concern-
ing his conduct, both on this and a previous evening. in the
course of this debate.—( Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet
had made use of expressions which he (Sir Wm. Somerville)
did not deservc.—(Hear, hear.) If it was the wish of the
House, he would at present withdraw the amendment, reserv-
ing to himself, however, the right to renew it, if he should
think fit, this evening.—( Hear, hear.)
The amendment was accordingly withdrawn, and the debate
adjourned until this evening.
COAL WHIPPERS (PORT OF LONDON) BILL.
This Bill then went through Committee. Report to-
morrow.
INSOLVENT DEBTORS' (INDIA) BILL.
On the motion of Lord MAHON this Bill was read a second
time. He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would be prepared
for the production of the budget, not later than to-morrow.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished he
could give the Gallant Member as satisfactory a statement of
the period when the budget would be brought forward, as he
could of the state of the revenue. The Government had an-
ticipated a surplus revenue of 90,0001., whereas the actual
surplus revenue was 1,750,0001.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

• A vote of 187385,200 Exchequer Bills was then agreed to.
BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY LAWS.
Mr. HAWES moved that the further consideration of the
Bill to amend the laws relating to Bankruptcy and Insolvency
be postponed until after Easter.
METROPOLITAN RAILWAYS' TERMINI.
Mr. PROTHEROE moved for a copy of the Commission,
and Instructions to the Commissioners, on Railroads having or
proposing to make stations in the metropolis. He also wished
to ask Sir Robert Peel a question on the extent of the powers
of the Commissioners on Railroads having stations in the me-
troplis, with a view of ascertaining whether the Commis•
sioners will take cognizance of, or interfere with the Bills now
before Select Committees of the House of Commons, and espe-
cially the North Kent Railroad Bill.
Sir H. PEEL apprehended that the Commissioners would
have no power to interfere with any other part of the railways
than those which came within the bounds of the city of Lon-
don. They would confine themselves exclusively to railway
termini within the metropolitan districts. One of the schemes
contemplated the removal within the city of London of more
houses than was destroyed by the great fire of Lon-
den. He thought it was a subject, therefore, which
called for some supervision on the part of the Commissioners.
He considered that it would be better for the Select Com-
mittee to say whether or not they would recommend that part
the scheme to be gone into. It certainly was better to ad-
here to the spirit of the resolution, and not to the letter, as a
mistake had crept in.
Mr. HAWES thought that that part of the Bill which
affected the borough of Southwark should be considered by
the Committee, before they made their report.
After a few words front Sir Da LACY EVANS and Mr.
MAsTettsrAN, the motion was agreed to.
Sir DE LACY EVANS brought up a Bill to regulate
the times of payment of rates and taxes by Parliamentary
electors, and to abolish the stamp-duty, on the admission of
freemen.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at One o'clock.

At a moment when famine, and its terrible attendant
Festilence, are threatening the poor of Ireland, and when the
irst Minister of the Crown, as well as every individual ac-
quainted with that country, is fully sensible of the fact that
no relief which Parliament can extend to its people can be
effective or permanent without the co-operation of the large
landed proprietors, and when such just complaints are made
of the apathy of these lords of the soil, who fail not to en-
force their rights, while they lamentably neglect those duties
which they owe to the people whom Providence has com-
mitted to their care, it is to us a most gratifying task to
record the exertions of one nobleman to give employment,
and spread comfort among the humbler classes around hint.
That nobleman is Lord De Freyne, who, to alleviate the
distress of tenants and dependents, gives, and has given for
the last year, constant employment to no less than 550 men
daily in the farther improvement of his beautiful and ex-
tensive demesne of French Park, in the county of Ro.som-
mon. should other landlords follow the example of this
most estimable nobleman we should hear little of local suf-
fering or agrarian outrages. He will reap his reward in the
blessings of a grateful population, and in the comfort and
happiness which pervade his estates. May his noble ex-
ample stimulate others to like acts of judicious benevolence.
—Observer.
We regret to learn that Sir George Murray, Master-
General of the Ordnance, still continuos much indisposed.
FALL Or A RAILWAY BItIDGE.—On Tuesday morn-
tag last, about six o'clock, the principal pillar of the stone bridge
across the CaMew, near the Long Island, belonging to the _Newcas-
tle and Carlisle Railway, anti which leads to the Canal Basin. gave
way, sinking nearly two feet—the ventro arch and roadway sinking
to the same extent. The foundation was raised upon plies, witch
had probably not been driven "home" to the rock, and the gravel
having been washed from beneath, the fall became inevitable. The
bridge will have to be entirely taken down ; but by using a tempo-
rary rilwa fixed upon planks, the coal waggons have been of the
canal has been but little impeded.—Carlia'e J,uraal.
EADVERTISEMENT.]—A BAD LEG OF SEVERAL YE
11
A!t2i.
STANDING CuBYD BY HOLLOWAY'S OINTMENT AND
11, .
Tub' ill t'rowee, Itichmon Widcombe, Bath
d Cottage, t 'been has
!whoring
Icelara:ton to thefollowin"e effect —" That lie
d with fourteen
for more than five years with an ulceratedli
wounds, and that he had 1 con a P.d the sulphur-
itient at,
Bath Pir three or four year, anti that he
II to no purpos., but that
Hospital et
bath every other day for six months, andil
^ler means bad fated. and
he is now perfecely cured after King, chemist,
by the use of Ifolloway's Ointment i'Veztraordinary case.—Sold by
Bath, will vouch for the tratP of
. all chemists and at l'yetessort4vllowny4 L 'stablisialitut, 244,
Strand, Louden.