The Sun.
London, England, 1846-02-24 00:00:00

local magistrates, no person would have more ready access to
information than they would; to none would information be
snore readily conveyed, provided he were looked upon as an
accredited officer for maiutainingthe peace of the country. He
did not mean that sort of information held in such abhorrence
by the people of Ireland—information made for the
purpose of obtaining the rewards offered by Government, but
he referred to that information which a poor man may make
to his landlord, who, as a magistrate, might turn it to some
account, for the prevention of crime; which he (the Earl
of Clancarty ) maintained, would be much better than vindi-
cating the justice of the law after the commiesion of crime.
fie did not wish to cast any imputation upon the
s'dpendiary magistrates ; but could their Lordships
listen to that la: ge catalogue of crimes, those unclaimed
rewards, and those offences which had hitherto gone un-
punished, without coming to the conclusion that, notwith-
standing the great increase in the administration of
justice, crime had, nevertheless considerably increased.
fie thought a reference to these circumstances mi,glit raise the I
question, whether a paid or unpaid magistracy were the proper
persons to be entrusted with authority in Ireland. Again, in
farmer times there had been causes for dissatisfac-
tion. These were the grievances of the penal statute.
'These had, however, all been removed. Again there
existed no longer exclusive privileges. They had had seventeen
years of conciliatory measures, they had had Cathoilc eman-
cipation, tee Reform Bill, Protestant associations had been
abolished, the tithe had beets comparatively extinguished, the
public funds had been withdrawn from the Protestant
I schools and placed at this disposal of a board which
leant more to the Roman Catholic than to the re-
formed faith. lie might add that the Chureh of Rome
had been sanctioned in Ireland, and last, not least, the college
cf Maynooth had been endowed. He thought that these Acts
showed at least a disposition oil the part of the Government to
Co-operate in the establishment of peace in Ireland.—(Hear.)
He wished to call the attenti in of the House to the provisions
of the Act. He thought that the clauses which provided
for the families of persons murdered in the present state
of the country should be recast. An alteration in this
particular would add to the utility of the measure.
He thought that their Lordships should pia vide some enact-
ment to which the poor should be compelled to resort, instead
of remaining as mendicants upon the face of the country; and
he would say that if their Lordships did that, they would do much
more than this Bill could do fur the peace of the people of
Ireland. Had the poor-rate been applied to that purpose—
had the mass of the poor of that country been relieved, the
preesure.of destitution which at present was so fearfully felt,
and which in so great a measure tended to demoralise
the people, would have been considerably lessened.
They were impoverished, and forced to associate with de-
praved characters, and thus were brought about those
instances of bloodshed, the details of which had been laid
before ;their Lordships. Under other circumstances
those murders would not have been committed. But
so long as a number of destitute persons pervaded
the country, without any stake or interest in it,
and led a medieant life, they need not be sur-
prised at such a state of things as had been detailed to them.
So long as misery and wretchedness prevailed in Ireland so
ong would the peace of the country be destroyed, despite such
measures as the present. He could not sit down without
expressing his very deep regret that the case of Ire-
land should be year after year dragged before
the country, which was calculated to give such
an unjust impression of the character of its
people. As an Irishman he felt indignant, because the
impression that was thus created in the minds of
Englishmen was very much the reverse of what
they truly deserved. They were not such as
their Lordships might infer from the details which had been
laid before them. The Government ought to bring forward
such measures as were calculated to make the people comfortable
and well fed, and they might then expect the country to
be in a peaceable ronditition. Such measures would effect its
peace muds more than any coercive measure which they could
pass.
Lord CAMPBELL thought that the observations which had
fallen from the Noble Lord who had just sat down were worthy
of the greatest consideration. He wished to make a
few observations on what had fallen from his
Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham). He
would not presume to offer any obstruction to the Bill, but
to express his opinion against a doctrine propounded by his
Noble and Learned Friend. He must protest against the
doctrine, that in the prosecution of such cases as was con-
templated by this Bill, parties should be tried at a
distance from the place of their abode. That there might be a
state of things in which it would be necessary to do
so he would not deny—cases in which juries would slot do
their duty, and witnesses declined giving their evidence. But
such a course was not to be taken unless under extraordinary
circumstances. But he had no difficulty in saying that such a
course, if it was made a standing law, would be ass invasion of
the rights and privileges of the people. He defended that
maxim of the common law of England that the accused party
should be tried in the neighbourhood of the place where the
offence was committed. The advantage to the individual in
being tried in the neighbourhood of the place was, that he had
a better opportunity of establishing his innocence among his
neighbours, who knew his character, than in a distant place.
Besides, if he was dragged to a distant part, the difficulty
would be to produce his witnesses. It might he said
that the Government should be compelled to pay the
expense of these witnesses. But it would be impossible in
many cases to take witnesses from their employment to dis-
tant parts, and then the accused would suffer from want of
exculpatory evidence. Besides, the trial and conviction of a
criminal in the nighbeithood where the offence was committed
would hare a greater effect than it could have its a distant part,
where that case had never beets heard of. If the Executive
Government always had the power of selecting Else place of
tt ial in political cases, they might commit the most
arbitrary acts.—(Hear, hear.) A man who would be
considered innocent in his ovsn neighbourhood, and might
really have committed no offense, must be carried to
a distant part of the country, where prejudices existed against
his se ntenents, political or religious, and he might be unjustly con-
y icted of, arid punished for an offence he had never committed.
His Noble and Learned Friend had stated, that practically
this was the law of England, but it was not so. The law of
England provided that the trial should take place only in the
county where the offence was committed, subject only to the
wholesome provisipn, that upon cause being made out, the
Supreme Court of Queen's Bench might change the venue, and
order the trial to take place in the county where a fair trial
could be had. Thecriminal law of Scotland, he regretted to say,
was very unfavourable to the criminal. The civil law, how.
ever, of that country was the best in existence, and the law of
England had often borrowed many important improvements
from it; but the criminal law of Scotland was arbitrary and
severe in the extreme. The Court of Justiciary in Scotland,
it was supposed could do what they pleased with criminals,
and it was to be regretted that they did not always act accord-
ing to the precepts of prudence or justice. 'fill lately, in Scot-
land, the judge selected the jury, he took the panel, and named
those who should be upon the jury ; and within the last six
months the Court of Justiciary in Scotland declared that they
had power to create any new offence which they might think
contrary to expediency, policy, or justice. There was a differ-
ence of opinion with regard to the punishment which ought
to be inflicted for the offences which had been referred to.
Some said, shorten life, but at length it was agreed that the
punishment should be transportation. Lord Cockburn was the
only dissentient to the alteration. But he hoped that the prac-
tice which prevailed in Scotland would not be a conclusive ar-
gument for its adoption in Ireland.—( Hear. ) if the Govern-
ment had made out a strong case fur giving them this arbi-
trary power, they might have been entitled to it. But lie
apprehended that the measure introduced by the Government
would answer all the purposes required. lie strongly concurred
-in the objections which had fallen from many Noble
Lords against continuing the measure for ass indefinite
instead of a definite period.—(llear. ) If the state of the
country at the expiration of the law sought to be established
was not in a fit state to allow its abolition, there could be no
difficulty in continuing it.

....
Lord BROUGHAM wished to say a few words in explana..
tion. He certainly never said the law of England was similar
to the law of Scotland with respect to the violent crimes sought
to be put down in Ireland. He said that, under the law of

Englandthere were cases in which it was difficult to obtain
a conviction. This was notorious in smuggling cases, for in-
stance. He was sorry his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord
Campbell) had taken the trouble to show what a bad law ex-
isted in Scotland. With respect to them, however, he simply
showed that good might come out of evil. His Noble and
Learned Friend's argument was the same as that used by him
with respect to the privilege question, in which it was main-
tained that they might make any punishment they
liked for a violation of the privileges of the Houses of Parliament.
He said it would be a great general improvemant if it were
the law generally. He was quite sure, if his Noble Friend
looked into the Act, he would find that a similar one had been
proposed by him ( Lord Brougham). There were two Acts, and he
recommended his Noble Friend (Lord Campbell) to refresh
his memory by reading them. He felt it his duty, when in-
troducing those Acts, to create court-martials to try all offences,
and giving a power to condemn a man to transportation for
life. In the 79th clause of the same Act his Noble Friend
would find what he had stated to be correct. He did not enter
into these general questions at all. But the venue Act, which
was nut opposed, passed in the mouth of August, and he (Lord
Brougham) was quite sum there were not such excesses as at
present.
Lord CAMPBELL said he would not enter into any con-
troversy with his Noble and Learned Friend, for it was well
known he was a Scotch advocate, and it would be very much
for the advantage of his country if he had never changed his
intentions.—(A laugh.) In his Noble Friend's Bill, he rnis.
understood what was its intention, for as they say, their
Lordships did not make the law, but were only to de-
clare it.

Earl GREY said, before the Bill was read a second time,
he wished to say a few words, and he was bound to remark that
his Noble Friend had made out a sufficiently stron,, case to
justify Parliament in arming the Government with
additional
powers. He deplored and he regretted that a case had been
made Gut for passing stringent measures, but he could not but
remember that that was not the first Bill of that description
that they had been called on to pass, For the last half century
since the union took place there were no five consecutive years
in which the ordinary law of the country was sufficient. A suc-
cession of Acts had been passed at different times for the purpose
of arming the Executive with additional power. With what effect
towards the pacification of the country, the fearful state of
things which the Noble Lord depicted in introducing the
present Bill was evidence, the tendency of which no one could
mistake. After that statement it could hardly be supposed
that this Act, which was of a similar nature, would be suf-
cient to repress the insubordination which existed. They had
no other alternative left but pecuniary grants. So tar as
eleemosynary relief could meet the distrenez of the county y,
Parliament afforded that relief ; but, notwithstanding all the
Acts which had been passed Ice the purpose of repressing
outrage, and notwithstanding all the grants for relief that had
been made by the imperial 'Parliament, no permanent or
effectual improvement had taken place in that country. This
proves that they ought not to continue in that line of pro-
cedure. They were bound to go to the root of the
evil, not merely to repress by arbitrary power the
commission of offences against life in that country,
but to take away the spirit of disaffection which
prevailed. He therefore thought that Parliament would
not be doing its duty if it did not pass a measure of the kind
he referred to. lie was well aware that the second reading
of the Bill was not the time for the discussion of those mea-
sures ; but, he sad, that if before that Bill left the House some
measure of the description he alluded to were not introduced—
if, before the third reading of the Bill, we are not given some
full and wise policy which her Majesty's Ministers meanto
adopt—in that case it will be the duty of this House not to t
thoseo
de-
lay the passing of the Bill, not to refuse the Government
powers which are necessary for the
protection of the poor man
even more than the rich, but, at the same time, by a solemn
vote to record our opinions upon the necessity of coupling with

')
this measure measures of the kind to which he had alluded.—
( Hear, hear.) So strongly did he entertain the opinion, that
if no other Noble Lord of longer standing in that House, and
more entitled to claim the attention of their Lordships, should
be prepared to bring forward such a measure, he should take
upon himself the task, when the present Bill was to be
read a third time, to submit to their Lordships, in
what shape he had not yet sufficiently considered to be enabled
to state, a resolution in an address to tier Majesty, calling upon
their Lordships not to rest satisfied with the present measure,
or with those other measures of immediate relief, to which be
would give his cordial consent, and to look more deeply into
the present condition of the people of Ireland, and to endea-
vour to apply some remedy commensurate with this evil. He
considered it better to reserve any remarks which he might
have to make upon the details of the present measure. He
would, however, just say that he cordially approved of the prin•
ciple of that part of the Bill which sought to throw upon those
districts of the country in which effesiees took place the burden
of providing for the support of the bereaved families, and the
expense of giving rewards for the discovery of offences—
( Hear, hear.) He believed this was a sound and wise princi-
ple, and he hoped that Government would render this clause
themai itytrbriemanl
teenrtatei
ontal ctsmo
oegnitist. Ile
couldopeortfebeetipairrid. to
introduced by a Noble Lord. The effect of the alter..
temstaikneg
a.tii:n would be to intluee juries to find persons guilty
upon insufficient ev:dence, because by finding these persons
guilty the district to which the persons who composed the
juries belonged would be relieved of all expense. He con-
sidered that there might e a temptation which might act upon
the minds of the juries to relieve the districts in which they
lived by unfair verdicts. He thought that, in the shape in
which the Bill then stood, an inducement would not be given
to jurymen to convict parties, and, therefore, he thought the
amendment sought for by the Noble Lord would nut be an im-
provetnent. lie agreed, that though the cost of those crimes
on the district in which they were committed was perfectly
roper and reasonable, the population had great means at.
c mmand for the prevention of crime, if they were inclined to
supyort the law, for crime only recurred because it was
unpunished. It was his opinion that the district should bear the
pecuniary expenses which arose in consequence. There
was another point to which he particularly wished to
call the attention of their Lordships. He thought
that a clause should be inserted in a Bill to limit its
duration. A Noble Lord had suggested that the Bill
should be repealed. He thought that his suggestion was the
better one, because no Government would propose its renewal,
unless circumstances were such as to justify them in asking it.
In the present stage of the Bill, he was not prepared to dissent
from it ; but he hoped that the clauses which had reference to
the puni,hment of persons out between sunrise and sunset
would be considerably modified.
After a few words from the Marquis of WESTMEATH,
the Bill was read a second time.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

aAILBAY I3UreSaldN a '
HOUSE OF COM .1.10-V S, Monday, Feb. 23.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at a few minutes before Four.
EseSeSo.nd time, and were
Numerous Railway Bills were
ordered to be committed. The names of the Bills are as
follow
Exeter and Exmouth Railway. _
Taw Vale Railway Extension.
Eastern Union and Iladleigh Junction Railway.
Slamannan and Borrowsteuness Railway.
Wilsontown, Morningside, and Coltness Railway (Improve..
ment and Branches).
Slamannan Railway ( Batligate anti Jawcraig Branches).
Wishaw and Coltness Railway (Greenhill Branch).
Wilsontown, Morningsale, and Coltness Railway (Knowton
Branch).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Pettycur and Perth Har-
bour Branches and Deviations).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Branches from the Dundee
and Arbroath Railway and Tay Ferry Improvement).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Strathearn Deviation).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Lochgelly and Leslie Ex-
tensions).
Edinbugh and Northern Railway (Kinross. Woodmill, and
Newburgh Branches).
Edinburgh and Northern Railway (Newport and St. Andrew's
Branch).
Lancashire and Yorkshire North Eastern Railway.
Perth and Crieff Direct Railway.
Ayrshire, Bridge of Weir, and Port Glasgow Junction Railway.
London and Croydon Railway ( Thames Junction Branch).
North Western Railway.
Saint Helen's Canal and Railway.
East and West Yorkshire Junction Railway.
Midland Railway (Syston to Peterborough Deviations and
Branches).
South 'Midland Railway (Northampton and Bedford Lines).
London and Birmingham Railway (Newport Pagnell Branch).
London and Birmingham Railway (Saint Alban's and Luton.
Branch).
Cheltenham and Oxford Railway.
Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle Railway.
West of Scotland Junction Railway
London, Hounslow, and Western Railway,
South Midland Railway ( Huntingdon Branch).
Exeter, Topsham, arid Exmouth Railway.
South Eastern Railway ( Tunbridge Wells to Hastings and Rye).
South Eastern Railway ( Branch from 'Reigate to Dorking).
South Eastern Railway (Maidstone to Strood near Rochester).
South Eastern Railway (from Canterbury to Dover).
South Eastern Railway (front Chislet to Margate).
South Eastern Railway (from the Godstone Station to East
Grinstead).
South Eastern Railway (Rye to Rye Harbour).
Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway Amendment
and Branches (No. 1).
Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway Amendment
and Brandies (No. 2).
Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway Amendment
and Branches (No. 3).
Norfolk Railway Extension (Dercham, Wells, and Blakenfty).
North British Railway and Branches (No. 1).
North British Railway (No. 2—Hawick Branches).
North British Railway (No. 3—Carlisle Extension).
North British Railway (No. 4—Gretna Branch).
BILsTON GAS-LIGHT AND CO r:.E BILL.
Mr. SPO. NER opposed the second reading of this Bill, on
the ground that one gas company already existed in the town,
and that it was incompatible with the convenience of the inha-
bitants that another company should be alhawed to be formed.
Now the first objection he entertained towards this Bill
was that they wished an, House to recognise the prin-
ciple of sending a Bill through Committee, confirming an
agreement, without the house knowing one of its
provisions. He contended that they ought to know
whether any power ought to be givcs. to this
or not. As far as lie knew Bilston was served with gas in the
must economical manner. The old Company had been
constituted under the Registration Act fur neap ly twelve months,
and they knew that when a Company of such art extensive
character was formed there were certain necessary expenses
incurred ; now, if they passed this Bill, by one of its clauses
they limited the liabilities of the shareholders in the elder com...
pang 0)51. per share. Ile (Mr. Spooner) did not know whe-
ther the amount so limited would be sufficient to pay the debts
already incurred. He thought that the public creditor
ought to at least have had notice of this alteration of the stand-
ing order. He was not aware however that such notice had
been given, but there was another objection which he con-
ceived was even more formidable than those he had enume-
rated. The Board of Trade had always laid it down as a rule
that in large works like these the profits should be limited
to 101. per cent. He understood that the Bilston Gas
Company supplied the inhabitants at the very. lowest price,
namely, (is. per 1,000 cubic feet ; and, looking into all the cir-
cumstances, he thought that th house would be justified in
throwing out this Bill. It would even be a saving of expense
to its promoters. He should, therefore, move that it be read
that day six months.
Mr. Al UNTZ, in a 'few words, which were inaudible in the
gallery, seconded the Hon. Member's motion.
Lord INGESTRE hoped the House would adopt the
original motion, that the Bill be then read a second time.
Mr. VILLIERS. in reply, said that it was untrue that no
petition had been presented to the House in favour of the Bill,
fora petition had been presented the other evening, signed by
every householder of liilston, praying the House to
pass the Bill.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Honourable
Member (Mr. Scrope) had said that the price of gas in
that neighbourhood was 6s. per thousand cubic feet. Now,
the fact was, that the lowest price was Ss. per thousand feet.—.
( Hear, hear. ) There were 03,000 inhabitants in Bilston,
anti they were all unanimously in favour of the present
Bill, and they stated in their petition that at present they lay
under considerable disadvantage in consequence of the Gas
Bill.

_ -7,-;;..K.7.-;;,'

Colonel AN SON quite concurred in all the expressions of
the lion. Member who had last addressed the House. He sin-
cerely hoped that the house would allow the Bill to be read a
second time without the least delay.—( Hear. )
Mr. T HORNEL Y supported the Bill. It was not fair that
the inhabitants of Bilston should be compelled to pay Bs. per
1,000 feet for gas, when in NVolverhampton it was but ss. 6d., and
in Liverpool, where he resided, 4s. tid., and about to be reduced
to 4 Seeing that every gas consumer in the town, with the
exception of three,- had signed in favour of the Bill, it would bat
absurd in the House to reject it.
Mr. DUGDALE was of opinion that another Gas Com_
pany was not wanted at Bilston. The inhabitants at
present paid Os. per 1,000 feet, not Ss. as stated ; and the only
advantage held out by the new Company was the promise to
supply them at ss.
After a few words from Mr. AIORRISON, the amendmeet
was negatived without a division, and the Bill was road a
second time.
LONDON AND
rAeßsNeßnclGitit)llaßTpAoetilNtiLeNn\SANfVryeAm.NDSWOßTH
Dr. 130WRINGBRp te the opponents of
this measure, praying for leave to be heard agair.-At the Bill
by counsel.

• WELSH MIDLAND RAILWAY.
Ayr. COLLINS incoented a petition in favour of this
project.

DIRECT NORTHERN RAILWAY.
M.. HUME presented a petition from Montrose in favour
of this scheme.
.._

Mr: BANNERMAN presented a petitien in favour of the
measure proposed by her Majesty's Government. (The name
of the place from which it came was inaudible.)
Air. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition, signed by &large
number of person in Lancashire, in favour of the Ten Hours'
Bill.
Mr. DUNCAN presented a petition from the shipowners of
Dundee, in which they expressed their dissent from the peti-
tion of the ship-owners of London, against the measure pro-
posed by her Majesty's Government, and begged that the
measure proposed by Sir R. Peel, and now under the con-
sideration of the House, might pass into a law.
CORN-LAWS.
Mr. DICKINSON presented a petition praying that this
House would not pass the present Government measure, and
praying that the burdens on agriculture should be relieved by
an additional income.tax.
Mr. RASH LE IGH presented several petitions from Corn-
wall against the present Government measure.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from Bingley, in Norfolk.
praying for a repeal of the corn-laws.
Mr. T. BATESON presented eleven petitions from Lon-
donderry against any alteration in the corn-laws.
ENROLMENT OF THE MILITIA.
d
Mr. BARCLAY presented a petition from S
signed by 1,490 inhabitants of that town, against the enrolment
Sunderland,
nrolment
of the militia.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petitionfrpoemtitßiooncshfdarellea,
signed by 5,381 inhabitants of that town ; also
several other laces to the same effect.
Mr. MITCHELL also presented a petition to the same
effect.
THEITT presented
laSTpetCitOioNn VprlaCyTinSi
Mr. BL E W for a mitiga-
tion of the remainder of the sentence passed on rost,
and Jones.
RAILWAY. RIDING UNION
NOTICES OF MOTIONS.—WEST
Mr. ESCOTT said—Sir, an error having occurred in the
report of the Select Committee on Standing Orders, it is my
intention to-morrow to move that so much of the report of the
Committee on Standing Orders, presented on Friday last,
as relates to the petition for leave to bring in the
West Riding Union Railway Bill be annulled, and that,
the notice that the West Riding Union Bill would be brought
in, be expunged.

- METROPOLITAN PRISONS.
Lord SANDON gave notice that on an early day hq eihnid