The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY. MORNING, AUGUST 18, 1846,

toedlad the First Commissioner of Woeds and Forests
ar
heeesented to allow the statue to
if
placed on the
p.esv fora period of three weeks, and if it ware nit
.*•° 01 at the end ef that time, it was to be pulled down.
arll" la) Now wile decia- whether the eta s
ti iv, r, ' . it • wisle o
tsksi, S.LyilLir,ltb P ' •
'l4 wla whether Naha, 1,4,a had any obieetti.,,se„eto,
aahl)" tit,, table a the Reuse the con, elie
it kitk "(1
tak'n Wave n the subject, in or lerl tlbeht,
st„niVit be printed and circulated amongst Honot ra
dal, he At all events, however, it the Noble Lord
daetiotel, shenld, early next session, move for their pro-
mitt .c Lora
"urbi H said finding that the euheote
,
°Taal me`l". d all the are; ehiah had lately been
statue t° them, he had consented to ail the
,tib to be placed upon the arch far three weeks, the
4ine°ronsittee undertaking in the event of its nc
tits g, then approved of to restore the arch and
jestsiits original pos.tion : of course her Ma-
the'' sub' Government
aatjai,,J,eet, and upon that advice the question
etts,:itunately be decided. The correspondence was
vele .-eq Lag, involving as it did matters of contro-
esuici and he trusted the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
s• ~,not press for its production till next session.
ctivihr •••• TRENCH added a few words in confirmation
isini at had fallen from the Noble Lord, the First Corn-
sl otter
14ea of Woods and Forests, and said, notwithsta"d
thate
_Punch had said, and what. had fallen from the
tea time Member For Dumfries, the sub-committee
atel aenlaitied of opinion that the arch was the best
The appropriate site which could be procured. s
hose Earl of LINCOLN said as the three week
ost occur when London might be said to be
sas,,°f town, he trusted in the event of the
Paths of the statue being approved of, the scaffolding
ranand
not be removed till the public had returned to
raYll ma ratified the decision with their approval.—
r, hear.)
pens PROTFIEROE suggested that a good deal of ex-
th. would be saved by placing a wooden model upon
arch first.
tOrd
eret,i• MORPETH thought not. The works for the
ess•eal°4 of the statute were nearly complete, and the
ber 118 e of placing the statue upon the pedestal would
tnai
Man
g*
tter then dropped.
SMALL DEBTS BILL.
fir
is sr REY intimated that it was not his intention
st3,:arieg. GREY intimated that it was not his intention
on the Small Debts Bill to-day, but he pro-
- -"" to do so the first thing to-morrow.
FLOGGING IN THE ARMY.
lisar* .CINVRING rose to ask the question of which he
his ,gl.ven notice. Before doing so, he must express
to ausfaction at the alteration which had been made
fur
referene e to the flogging in the army, and he must
Ter express his greater satisfaction that the Noble
4111 another at the head of the army had stated
rennin
place that tee matter was not to
tee flogging iatilotongewthelvr aasab,neylibsuhte
abolished.—(Hear,
that
il
ehaer, hopedhearo yet
Htios
question was whetherlire iatended instructions have been or
be issued, regulating the character of
tits instrument with which flogging in the army is to be
ttlitincbtaendd,laes, rtehgeards the size, the weight, the length of
number and thickness of the cords or
ties Rs, the size and number of the knots ; also, deter;
inileni what functionaries are to be charged witohdthoi
timeis nn of corporal punishment, and what
is . to be allowed between each blow ; also,peri whether,
,hstitact the medical attendant shall certify that it would be
ta;ger°lls to continue the flogging, any unapplied
°!. file punishment is to be reserved for a second.
autieotalen ; also, whether it is intended that the dinn-
alai,- to fifty lashes shall apply to the European and
the teass,
nv r of the East India Company ; and whether
arl-erntrient will consent to make annual returns to
trrov tamest of the corporal punishments employed in the
ilieQtllnsnumber of lashes, the offences for which m-
Lestiatian RUSSELL
what species of court-martial ordered.
best' • RUSSELL said he could not an the
!its Mons which the Hon. Member had put categorically,
would say that the Noble Duke the Commander-
istswet had stated, in another place, what were his
Ivesicilna regarding this punishment in future, and it
teas °l' improper in him (Lord J. Russell) to pre-
4see aging further into the matter than had then
doubter The intention was to restrict the
nuat•,a of lashes to fifty, and there was no
se ,fla•aere was every intention that the instruments to
late tt erled would be of a uniform character, and regu-
a4n y, the medical authorities. Respecting whethere,
tisegerula medical attendant certified there would b
41)pasi 111 continuing the punishment, the un-
''eee%in portion would be given on a second
eters ,be would observe that there was
tishtn erooability that the reserved portion of the pu-
tnlatissellt would not be inflicted. With respect to the
_
'eir trop
they were regulated by articles of war of
the in °lvo, and there was no doubt,
relation
sia-Caritish troops were known out there, that
oho itar airir,anaernent would take place. He (Lord
threease4B7a-) had no objection to the annual returns of
tare
-°gginrs which were also sought by the Hon.
kitiourabl Ile nault say, at the same time, that the
ethoelleatthat Gentleman and the House would re-
"'le Noble Duke did not state
re-
and
ceatteration now proposed to be a final
eonsicletrotea tneetaure•
The subject was still under the
time to t'tl -},°` the •Co mander-in-Chief, and from
,_aunishoselTpteosnes.iebiew.:ld makem such alterations in the
to reduce its amount and frequency as
bath as
(Cheers.) He could assure them
Would be 4°Nect the Government would have in view
Of this be 10 diminish as much as possible the frequency
Pline of punishment, and to maintain the disci-
jstrof,Lhe army by other measures.—(Hear, hear.)
tha/CquuLLER said nothing coulde bseammeoroejemnger.opelrt
flogging a man twicre
ofcocrasions, but having been
deep t° be done on forme
al area illegal, it was given up, and never occurred in
e as_
k_al now.
regal r• WILLIAMS wished to . know if the same
m-
s tons were to be applied to the navy
as
hes t° the army. He thought they were
-,esu
sera rY there as in the army, and he hoped that both
teas 'nes would be placed on the same footing. He
e' • full
4ted the Noble Lord would give the subject his
Niesideration.
isfaitPtain BERKELEY said no punishment was ever
the ea in the navy without its being fully reviewed by
Bog ard, of Admiralty. Whenever the subject of
faterg, m the navy came under discussion, he would
saia"'Y state his views. He believed no line-of-battle
fler n°tlldes be kept in discipline without the power of
ggin
kr• VP
.044 of aseaLEY hoped that, even under the mitigated
IvooldiPUnisbnient to be adopted, the strictest orders
Sqet, ne issued for its regulation. While on this sub
LOrd would refer to what had fallen from a Noble
e
Istei4n another place, in which he impugned t
tav- the jury. in a recent case as con-
TV to
aat la the evidence adduced.—(Hear, hear.)
that ir, °Die Lord without any responsibility declared
ThickaWhiClact, the jury had acted contrary to the oaths on
NO were inapannelled to investigate the case
B•Neainc'll'ale Lord might to have at least made himself
°tan an Pe' -ilva„itil the faCts of the case before he ventured_
--e v ° in, and least, were he dissatisfied with
vest. erdiet giveut
atmved for a Committee to in-
subject then dropped.
M. se POOR-LAWS.
i7etnbe r— °RTIIWICK hoped that as the Hon.
for Montrose had a motion for to-morrow
at there the
- 1 discussion ,
subject of the Poor-law Commission,
ether? was no likelihood of there being a House and
to
mat its
the Government would take the
•Q
doterinto their own hands. From what they had
already in
regard to the Poor-law Commissioners,
haned°B4ld leave the matter with confidence in their
Ap
tinPr a "INTMENT OF MR. THOMAS GORDON.
G. BENTINCE rose to ask the question of
kielch he had given notice, in reference to the appoint-
tisaat of a gentleman as a magistrate who was repre-
'l"l to have been convicted in the Court of Exchequer
nnr defrauding the revenue. He had not in the
Oleo mentioned the name of the individual, as
ho
oft Pe there might have been two individuals
hat name. He would now, however, mention the
tat p
of the art
"'I
was Mr. Thomas Gordon, who,
It
1. 1831, was convicted before before Lord Lyndhurst, then the
Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer, and fined 800/. for
4sing an imitation Government stamp in calico
Printing, with the object of defrauding the
revenue. The Nobleh Lord concluded by asking
;he question whic was placed on the notice papa
44 the following terms:—To ask Lord J. Russell
4n,tihestion with rt gard to the appointment, by the late
ellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, of a gentleman as
Itelbagistrate within the jurisdiction of the Duchy, said to
been formerly concerned in defrauding the Excise.
Quite unable to defend himself from the charge, this
gentleman withdrew his plea and submitted to a penalty
)asi 8001- And yet this was the man whom the pr eseut
rvernment had elected to sit upon the magisterialbench
41 the count f Lancashire. Ile might be told that there
had "been Y‘oorne understanding that he should not
bat4",`,Y for the performance of magisterial duties,
t‘nat was not enough. It was a disgrace to the
l'lreatZtrales of Lancashire to have such a man on the same
the themselves. He wished, therefore, to know from
Cher Lord at the head of the Government whe-
tu-ker, this Ass
Gorton, of Lancashire, was the gentleman.d
fraud"ad, a few ears ago, been convicted of having e-
s _
1.44! the Excise.
d `*T- RUSSELL said that he believed the Noble
h had correctly stated that Mr. Gordon, who
r"enti been placed upon the roll of Lancashire
e
illt,,agiatratesYby the Chancellor of the Duchy wasn
the
ltacise. But Lord Campbell,
',4•S'a who had been convicted, in 1831, of abfraanuedelolor
of
14leaster, finding that such a person
the present C
had been ap-
P(iirited to the commission of the peace, had a corre-
tPoudence on the subject, which (Lord J.
of" which that
Lobe" l) had not yet seen, butt
him the result.
I,4orndle Lord had communicated
u Campbell stated that Mr. Gordon had been placed
P4l
etae Commission of the peace without any _ e
tatio f his own and he (Lord Campbell), therefots•
tallt,°llaht that it would. net be right to inflict upon him the
si'ma rernovino• him immediately from the commis-
then of the peace, because it might then seem to him
at he had been nominated to the magistracy merely
t'nh,„. !he
total pre' purpose of disgracing him. It was,
eiore,
tstuoggg,.eiastliefily to Mr. Gordon that he should
himself as a magistrate. He (Lord
t,:ehneorlrtuesspsioll)deh:tel; not, as he had already stated, seen
but when he had seen it he would
make a further statement to then. House as to what was
tetencled to be done on this subject.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET detailed the cir-
notestances connected with the appointment of Mr. Gordon
u ithe magisterial bench. An error had certainly
CGvasa
'ao committed in the selection of Mr.
selection
he could assure the House that
, was not prompt.ed. by an impure motive.
beaaaautation of gentlemen originally waited upon him
'•°re the selection, representing thet, in consequence of

deaths, failures, &c., the magistrates of Lancashire had
become inadequate in point of number to the perform- I
ante of their duties; they presented a list of such gentle- '
men as they considered fit to be appointed to the
mee,d.o racy, and amongst those was the name of
M. G +Mon. N ;w, it had always been his custom,
wn•lst t onreh of the Duchy of Leneaeter. to inquire
in 0 the reiaracter of such es he umninated to the megis-
tree)... but, owing to an aeeideet, he had cot been able,in
this ieetance to institute an inquiry into the cir-
curnetane ,s and character of M:. Gordon. It had
been represented to him that Mr. Gordon had
for many ye :rs occupied a very high and re-
st eetahle position in the netehbourhood in
weeeh he resided Ia consequence, however, of
a communication from one of the Honourable
Members for Mencheete r, he made full inquiries
into the character of Mr. Gordon, and the re-
sult was a series of communications between
himself, Mr. Gordon, and other individuals. To ascer-
tain the truth of the charge as to the alleged fraud on
tne Excise, he (Lord G. Somerset) wrote to the Excise
officers, and was fully informed of the suit that had been
commenced against Mr. Gordon a few years ago, for
having forged a Government stamp and defrauded the
Excise. The inquiry into the charges against
Mr. Gordon were in progress when he (Lord
Granville Somerset) tendered to her Majesty
his seals of office, and he considered that the Noble Lord
(Lord Campbell), who had succeeded him in office, would
act on this subject in a manner that would be satisfactory
to all parties. That was the explanation which he had
to make. He could ssure them that it bad been re-
presented to him that Mr. Gordon was a gentleman
of the highest respectability, and he (Lord Granville
Somerset) did not in this matter consider himself to
have been guilty of anything more than an error, of
which any person might in similar circumstances have
been guilty.
The House having resolved itself into Committee on
the Public Works (Ireland) Bill,
DISTRESS IN IRELAND.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose, and said that he took
that opportunity of calling the attention of the House to
the present state of distress in Ireland, and in doing so he
should consider it his duty to refer to what had been done
at the end of last year, and during the spring of
this year by the former Government on the subject
of the failure of the patoto crop, and whatever
sorrow he might feel in having to bring the sub-
ject of the present state of the potato crop in Ire-
land before the House, yet he should endeavour
in doing so to avoid any discussion which might give rise
to any party division or excite any controversy on the
subject. The Committee would recollect that towards the
end of the last year considerable alarm was felt with regard
to the state of the potato crop in Ireland and some parts
of Scotland. He thought that it was unnecessary to
state that that arose from the unforeseen failure, to a very
great degree—and to a greater degree than on usual
occasions—in the harvest of a country or appre-
hended scarcity. And he would state three circum-
stances which he thought were calculated to inspire the
Government and the public at large with very
considerable apprehension upon that subject. And
one of those circumstances was, that potatoes being one
of the chief and the lowest kind of food, the failure in
the crop of potatoes, which was the chief article of
nourishment of the great mass of the people, there was
no kind of food of a cheaper or lower description to
which the population could have resorted for support.
Such was the distinction between a country, the popula-
tion of which chiefly fed upon potatoes, and
other countries, the population of which
chiefly fed upon wheat, a higher description
of food. Another circumstance which was to be ob-
served was, that the disease in the potatoes was to a
great degree unknown; none could tell to what extent
it had been carried, or how great the loss
of the crop would eventually turn out to be
If the crop were wheat or barley, failures would be seen
in some six weeks or two months before harvest time,
and a calculation could be made by which one
might ascertain what was the amount of the
deficiency in the quantity of the crop, and how much of
that description of food might be required from other
countries for the supply of the people. The third cir-
cumstance which he would mention was one which
was connected with the others which he had stated,
and that was, that a great proportion of the people
of Ireland were in a state verging upon desti-
tution in a state of very great poverty and
suffering. That had been ascertained and stated
repeatedly in statistics and documents which had been
laid before Parliament. The report of the Commissioners
on the poor-law inquiry—the report of the Land
Commission, over which Lord Devon presided—the re-
port of the Commission on the census—all told them that
the greater proportion of the people of Ireland lived in a
state of extreme poverty ; that, in fact, they did not re-
ceive wages which enabled them to pay for the food
which they required. They received wages only during
a portion of the year, and those of a very low
amount, and during a considerable portion of the
year they were fed upon potatoes of a very inferior
kind. Those reports informed them that, in the first
place, there was a great number of what were called con •
acre farmers, who rented a plot of land conjointly with
others ; above them was another class, who, although
they were called a higher class of farmers, were
yet very little above those he had just named.
There was also another and a lower class, who were
maintained by the funds brought forward for the relief
of the country. These three circumstances were calcu-
lated to induce the Government of this country to look
with very considerable alarm at the prospect before them.
He was not adverting then to any other measures which
the Government thought it necessary to take. They took
measures which, in his opinion, were directly applicable
to these evils. The first measure they took, as he found
by a minute cr letter of the Treasury of the 9th of
December, was to order a quantity of Indian corn to be
procured by the house of Baring and Co., in the ports
of this country, or from foreign countries. With respect
to this measure, it was to be observed that it was very
wisely, and likewise, he might say, with great good for-
tune contrived that this for a long time was kept a secret
both here and inlreland. The arrival of that supply was' not
known at the time whenit came. No expectations were held
oat, and therefore none were raised by its arrival, and
it had much less injurious effects in disturbing the re-
gular trade of the country than it might have done if it
had been expected. Another measure to which the Go-
vernment had recourse was to grant donations in aid of
subscriptions. There were subscriptions collected in
Ireland to a very large amount, and many of
them from some of the very poor amongst the farmers.
These subscriptions thus received amounted to the sum
of 100,0001. Another measure which the Government
took at the commencement of this session was, to pro-
pose that there should be public works prosecuted by
certain powers, and the authorities of the Irish county
sessions should be empowered to make such works, pro-
vided that one-half of the expense of such works
which might be advanced was to be repaid, and that
the other half should be defrayed by grants from the
Treasury. Another measure, which was proposed and
carried in this House, was, that by a general present-
ment the sums advanced for the purposes of these public
works should all be repaid within the usual time. Now
the amount, the general amount in money of all these
measures, was stated in a book which had been presented
to that House, and which was called " A Correspondence
relative to the Measures of Relief of the Distress occa-
sioned by the Failure of the Potato Crop in Ireland." The
first item in the book was for the purchase of Indian
corn and oatmeal, of which the expense amounted to
155,432/.; the second was for sums issued in donations
in aid, and was 67,911/.; the third was for works autho-
rised to be executed under the Act 9th Victoria, chap. 1,
for the relict of distress in Ireland, and was to the
extent of 452,7271.; the fourth item was a sum authorised
to be advanced under the 9th Vic., and which amounted
to 133,536/. The sth, 6th, and 7th items were smaller
sums, which were empowered to be applied in cases of
great emergency. These, with the amount taken by the
thewvi; ttcahahmtihoo
regard
aret
roe
dnbineg
granted
ert
oan,
Board of Works, altogether amounted to 852,481/., and
ad
n
pttilidnd
theaonof
dft hereavextipipwaseyaen
nsd4e
d94,wBistlh/o.
12,;T
thhee
exmwhtichwas th3iss7,l6a3rogle.
expense was intended to prevent, and with
regard to the fund itself, there was a great deal of in-
formation which any Member of that House might find
by reading the voluminous correspondence which had
just been presented to the House. With regard to
the evils in the country, it would be found, as
might have been expected from what he had
already said, that the amount of the evil was
differently calculated at different times, and in fact
had not been as yet completely ascertained. In the
first accounts they could find it was stated that if they
took the four provinces of Ireland the deterioration of
the potato crop was about one-fourth. It was afterwards
said by Colonel M`Gregor that it was estimated at
about one-eighth, and it was subsequently stated by
other authorities that it amounted to one-half of
the whole crop. These sort of matters it was,
of course, difficult to ascertain, but what he thought
they might well believe, and which was already ascer-
tained from the reports, was, that there was a very great
failure in the potato crop, and it was extremely destruc-
tive to the crop in 1845. The disease was not one pecu-
liar to Ireland or Scotland last year—it was a disease
known in various parts of the continent of Europe
and elsewhere, and in various parts of America.
He had before him the first statements made in 1845 by
direction of the colonists of the United States, and also
other statements made in answer to the orders of the
authorities here, from which it appeared to be a 'disease
known for some years in America ; it was called the
" rust." It first appeared in 1835, and in consequence of
it a considerable portion of the potato crop was lost ;
and in 1845 it became of a more virulent and destructive
nature than was ever known before. Thus far it was
ascertained that with respect to the measures which
were then taken, and of which he had been speaking,
their effect in Ireland had been exceedingly beneficial.
They were confirmed in that belief from the various ac-
counts of the effect produced by the different mea-
sures to which he had alluded, and which showed
that places where the people were entirely deprived oi
food and employment, employment and food were
afforded, and in other places where the people were
almost driven to desperation, and in a state prepared fot
an outbreak—where there was danger to the tran-
quillity of the country, and a feeling of discontent—that
feeling was changed into one of satisfaction and
pleasure. Otte of the letters to which he had
alluded, was a letter from Mr. Russell
with regard to the state of the county of Clare ; he stated
that with regard to that county- there were a greater
number of persons employed than any ocher county in
Ireland—that the operations of the hoard of Works,
considering the materials on which they had to operate,
were progressing satisfactorily, and that not a single

longer. He could assure the Committee and the House
that he considered that his predecessors in office had
shown a laudable anxiety to meet those evils. The
remedies which they applied were remedies suited to the
occasion, and he would endeavour to imitaSe the spirit
in which they acted, and take advantage of the expe-
riene which they had eetined, and also endeavour to
correct those errors wh;cli were certain to attend so
unusual a state of things. He should, therefore, conclude
by moving that a grant of 175,0001. should be voted for
the payment of Exchequer-bills, and also that a further
sum of 50,0001. should be voted to defray the expense
of public works in the poor districts of Ireland.
In answer to a question put by Mr. HUNIE,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
it was not the intention of the Government to import any
food into the country ; and read two letters which he
had received from merchants upon the subject, in which
it was hoped the Government would not interfere with
the operations of commerce, and that the supply of Ire-
land might now be safely left to the merchants, and that
if it were so, they would be able to sell India corn at the
rate of id. per pound.
Mr. D. BROWNE thought that the speech of the
Noble Lord at the bead of the Government was calcu-
lated to inspire a feeling of confidence in the Govern-
ment. He had received a number of letters from the
county which he had the honour to represent (Mayo) con-
tainirs, the must fearful details ef the present condition and
the future prospects of the people of that country. The
speech of the Noble Lord was ominous of much good to
the country, and he hoped that the people would infer
that the intentions of the present Government were to
advocate a system of generous policy for that coun-
try. fhe late Government had deserved great credit
for the course they had taken last year
when the distress was so great in the country.
He trusted that the attention of the Government would
be called to the necessity of doing something to put an
end to the people of Ireland devoting themselves solely
to agricultural pursuits, and that some inducements
would be held out to them to consider manufactures.
He thought the law cf landlord and tenant in that
country ought to be altered, and other improvements
made, or a repeal of the union granted.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought that the distresses of the
people of Ireland should not be relieved by taxation on
the people of England, but of the landlords of Ireland.
He considered that a well-digested system of poor-laws
in that country would be productive of great benefit.
Mr. LABOUCHERE defended the proposal of the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government, and stated
that that proposal required the landlords of Ireland to
bear the burdens of that country; but, in order that they
might do so effectually, the Government offered them
the assistance stated by his Noble Friend at the head of
the Government. The state of Ireland at present was so
extraordinary, that it required extraordinary measures
to meet them. He believed that the course pursued by
the late Government, in sending meal to Ireland, was,
under the circumstances, a most wise one. The
Corn Bill was not then passed, and the trade in
corn was not then free. The case was different
now, and he believed it would be most unwise on the
part of the Government to make themselves mer-
chants, and in that character supply the people with
meal. It was impossible to see what was going on in
Ireland now, and not come to the conclusion that
it would be impolitic on the part of the
Government to interfere with either the pro-
vision or the labour-market of a country.
He trusted that by rendering it. the interest as well as the
duty of the landed proprietors of Ireland to employ the
poor of that country they should have provided an effec-
tive and wholesome remedy for the anticipated distress.
Lord LINCOLN complained of the manner in which
the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the
House had alluded to the measures of the late Govern-
ment. Had they or the officers employed under them
been guilty of such a dereliction of duty as that alleged
by the Right Hon. Gentleman they would have deserved
the condemnation rather than the praise of the Noble
Lord who had introduced this subject to the House.—
(Hear.) But he was happy to say the charge was ground-
less, and he believed the conduct and policy of Sir R. Ralph
was opposed by every body on both sides of the House.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that the grossest
abuses had existed in the administration of the affairs of
the Board of Works, but he could give the assertion the
nost unqualified denial.—(Hear, hear.) He by no
neans denied that abuses del exist, because it was im-
possible to prevent them, but they had not existed to
one-fifth part of the extent alleged by the Right Hon.
Gentleman. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said the
effect of the measures of the late Government was to
demoralize the habits of the labouring population of
Ireland. Well, if they had, all that he could say was,
that the present Government was most unwisely follow-
ing the footsteps of their predecessors in office. He
was glad, however, to see that no English Member had
yet risen to object to what the Noble Lord had pro-
prosed.—(Hear, hear.) Not even the most rigorous
economist of the public purse, the Hon. Member for
Coventry, had objected to it, and he was glad of it, be-
cause it would go over to the sister country that no
matter what Government might be in power, the
poor of that country would be as much cared for
as the poor of England.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Under.the operation of the provisions adopted by the
late Government a most beneficial trade had been
created in Indian meal, a trade which was now likely
to be permanent. But, though this trade had been
created and fostered by the late Government, he did not
think that the present Government should continue to
be traders in the sense the former one had been; and he
fully agreed with the course that was now proposed to
be taken. Under the circumstances, so satisfied was be
with what the Noble Lord had stated, that he (Lord
Lincoln) would not ask him any questions as to the
details of the course he intended to pursue, but would
rest satisfied with the exalanations ho had given in his
speech. He must, however, before sitting down, bear
his testimony to what the Noble Lord had stated re-
specting the praiseworthy manner in which the officers
employed under the Government had carried out their
arduous and difficult duties. No body of men could
have acted in a more becoming manner, and he hoped they
would be continued in any future effort to be made to
meet the exigencies of the people of Ireland.
Mr. LABOUCHERE explained that in the observa-
tions he had made, he did not for a moment intend to
impugn or underrate the policy and measures adopted
by the late Government, but he only rose to point
out the danger and difficulties that surrounded the fol-
lowing out of such a policy beyond meeting the urgent
necessities of the case under which they then acted.
Mr. HENLEY said that after the statement of the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland it
was impossible to infer whether the measure now pro-
posed was to be temporary or not. America had already
for four years suffered from a failure in the potato crop,
and the potato disease there bad not yet disappeared.
In Ireland the people had already suffered two years
from the potato disease; there was no probability of that
disease being yet extinguished ; and he was afraid that
in future years further relief would have to be sought
on behalf of the people of that country by the British
Government. This proposal would show the Irish people
that the Government and people were more favourably
disposed to them than they got credit for. He hoped
that more permanent measures would be taken in the
ensuing session for the relief of the Irish people.
Sir D. NORREYS wished that the Legislature of this
country would in future sessions bring forward such
measures for the permanent relief of Ireland as would
remove from the people of that country the necessity of
coming to the British Legislature in the character of
supplicants.—(Hear, hear.) Ireland had mines of the
most extensive and valuable description—it had rivers
peculiarly adapted for commerce—and yet, in conse-
quence of the Legislature not looking to the subject of
the improvement of Ireland in a proper light, all those
natural resources of wealth and comfort were allowed to
lie waste and useless.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said he was pleased to hear that the land-
lords of Ireland were prepared to provide for the neces-
sities of the people of that country as far as possible, by
the encouragement of public works.—(Hear, hear.) The
measures of relief hitherto granted to Ireland by the
Government had most signally failed in their object. The
Irish people were as willing as Englishmen or Scotchmen
to work, and he therefore would ask whence came the
poverty of Ireland? It owed its origin to the misrule of
that eountry.—(Hear, hear.) As long as England in-
flicted poverty on Ireland by their misgovernment and
oppression, they had a right to pay for their tyranny
l uponenf vodi ernrwt
ttnheht reheeieees sluspem e
manner as did Use country
and oppression. The Government was bound to assist
the country gentlemen of Ireland in giving employment
to the people. Let the present grand jury system, as
well as all other pernicious civil institutions, be at once
abolished, and then there would be hope for the people
of Ireland. It would then arrive at the peaceable, happy,
and contented condition of England and Scotland.
Let every law that was fit and applicable to England be
extended to Ireland, and then they would hear very
ittle of " dietrees in Ireland."—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. MILNES said that all elemosynary grants of
this kind established very bad and corrupting principles.
He perfectly concurred with the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose, that it was at once the duty of the English Legis-
lature to place Ireland on a footing similar to England
undoubtedly
ewbi eilliinegv edt thatm akif
e
andth the Slandlordscotland o inf
re
s Irelandpent owerefits lassistedoriaulwebato by the Legislature
o
in improving their estates, ti:lehitdoeeefyl
ofl
twh oetuhlltaeriliardl
lt
andlords
dosuhnsnfotberfrryrel.itnrhegr:
brethren
nhini
ce
p aeueot uptl
greatl be
sacrificeslye oe
fmgE uo snot
England
b
d
gland. The landlords of Ireland must
that it was their duty to conduct themselves, towards
IrEitsln'uxuries, and devote themselves to the
theirgentlemene
tnhodefei
improvement of their country.
Sir R. FERGUSON said he considered that they
should make the electoral divisions of unions responsible
yno in t
bea way to be apvantageous to the
well to entrust its expenditure to
for the sums recommended to he laid out in them. He
thought this the only means of regulating the expendi-
ptt uhereoepplooefo.
Poor. sas:cm,
ouou
ions,
on account of the difficulty of electing
Guardians.
,
The Board of Works of Ireland had shown
themselves utterly incompetent to properly manage the
necessity, ' and again that the sums they
works entrusted to them. He imagined they had done
their
ea
ge
de
without best,
fr oinand
na a proof of this he must quote a
ptheire report:—" Many works were com-
had paid for labour a
were Inconsistent with the amount of
labour which they had received in return. (Hear.)
He thought it was most unfair to make statements
roprietors of Ireland, without
against the landed p
giving proper data in support of them. The Noble
Lord (Lord Lincoln) had made use of two anony-
mous statements, which he thought most unfair,
of Ireland Government were for
unless those statements could be fully substantiated.
Mr. B. ESCOTT had no doubt that the intentions
both of the present
consider , and the only question
and
, was the manner in which those
the late
thef,r
the future
nopusreos tpoe r
inter.lions were proposed to be carried out.—(Hear.)
Now, were there not ordinary means for carrying them
without having recourse to special enactments,
which were unprecedented in the political history of the

case of starvation had occurred in the county ; and, in fact,
that the people were never so wa provided for as they were
this season. There were very few cases of fever—fewer,
in fact, than had beta known for many years. That in-
formation was obtained from the Roman Catholic clergy-
men. TI , next letter was an abstract return of the
number of persons employed by the Board of Works,
and that number amounted to no less than 102,133.
With regard to that which he had firs, entioned—the
measures of Government for providing Indian corn—that
measure seemed to have affored very considerable relief.
But it was to be observed that these measures of Go-
v, rnment, providing additions; iood, were doubly bene-
ficial in their effects. The case would have been very
serious in Ireland had not these measures been taken, and
had there not been food provided which could be sold at
a very reasonable rate. It had been sold in various places,
as the papers would show, at 10/. per ton, and by retail at
a penny per pound. One pound of this Indian corn
was sufficient food for a strong labouring man for a day.
So that ld. per day would provide enough sustenance
for a day. With respect to the donations, they did bring
out a very large amount of subscriptions. He alluded
to those made by ail classes of persons in Ire-
land to be applied to the relief of the distress.
Of course, he would not enter on the invidious
question of whether there were individuals who ought
to have contributed who had not done so ; but he must
say, that from the accounts which had been received he
found that very person who was able had contributed
to these subscriptions. With regard to persons of large
property, who undertook works for the employment of
the people, and which they managed out of their own
resources, and of which, of course, no account
had been received, or could be given to the public, al-
though they materially contributed to the relief of the
people—with regard to these works, and the sums ad-
vanced in cases of great emergency, there had been, as
he had just shown, the greatest relief afforded by them ;
but it was impossible for any Government or Legis-
lature endeavouring to meet these alarming
cases of distress, taking for the period of the
year from December to the coming in of the
harvest in August, and the employment of the people on
that harvest—it was impossible to preserve them, as
they had been preserved, from any deficiency of food
afford to them due employment and preserve
the peace of the country—and at the same
time afford that satisfaction which must be
afforded from the knowledge that the Government of
the Legislature of the United Kingdom had been so far
from indifferent to their sufferings, that it had been eager
to supply their necessities—it was impossible to produce
these great results without some very serious
concomitant evils.—(Hear, hear.) In the first place,
with respect to the supply of Indian corn
in the emergency which he had alluded to, and in the
cases which they had before them, it was prudent,
and it also was best suited to that emergency ; but if it
were to be considered as establishing a principle for the
Government of this country to apply the resources of
the Treasury for the purchase of food in foreign countries,
and that food were afterwards to be sold by
retail at a low rate, it was evident that all trade would
be disturbed, and those supplies which should be
naturally a portion of the commerce of this country,
would be applied for the relief of the people of Ireland.
—(Cheers.) Likewise that portion of the local trade in
Ireland which referred to the supply of districts would
be injured, and the Government would find itself
charged with that duty most impossible to perform
adequately, to supply with food a whole people; so
likewise with regard to public works for which ad-
vances and grants were made. Although they were
in themselves beneficial, yet their effects were in
a certain degree injurious, for those people
who were employed in ordinary works, and
received abundant pay, went to these public works
in preference to the others, and thus the ordinary
operations of industry were disturbed.—(Hear, hear,
from Lord G. Bentinck.) In a letter from Cob Jones,
in page 333, he says—" That from a partial inspection
of some works in the progress of construction, it was
found that they had been put a stop to, and that some of
the great public works for the Shannon drainage were
without workmen, and that those men obtaining ls. 6d. per
day at these private works preferred 9d. on public works.
In many instances, a number of persons were sent to
those works who ought not to have been sent at all, by
gentlemen distributing tickets without proper inquiry,
end the consequence was, that those who httherto had
been accustomed to come to England and Scotland to
assist in taking in the harvest, found that work in Ice
land for them at their very doors, sufficieet to provide
for their maintenance. They abandoned all idea of the
harvest in England and Scotland, and the harvest
operations in the north of England suffered materially,
in consequence of this, and a great deal of the food of
the country was lost from there not being sufficient
men to get it in. Lady Symonds had remarked upon
this fact in a letter to Mr. Trevellian ; this was
one of the injurious consequences inevitable
from the large employment given on public works.
The accounts which the Government were daily re-
ceiving from the south of Ireland, and various other
counties, all concur in representing the disease as far
more fearful than in the preceding year. The accounts
contained in the newspapers from various correspondents
are also of the same alarming nature. It had, there-
fore, become the duty of the Government to consider
in what manner they should propose to Parliament to
make provision for some employment to the labouring
classes of Ireland, and at the same. time leaving, as he
trusted Parliament would leave, such a discretion in the
hands of the Government as any emergency might
render necessary in their opinion, and giving an account
of those measures to Parliament at a future time.
It had appeared to the Government that while there
should be public works, and those public works should
be undertaken under due control, that they should not
defray the cost of thoso works from any Parliamentary
grant, but that they should be defrayed from a loan to be
repaid by the counties. He would, therefore, propose to
introduce a Bill by which the Lord-Lieutenant should have
power, upon representation made to him, to summon a
barony session, or a county session, for works of relief.
When this session should be assembled they would be
empowered and required to order such public works as
might be necessary for the employment of the people and
for relief : the choice of those works to be lett to them,
and the execution of the works to be superintended by the
officers of the Board of Works. The choice of the works
will not, however, be left so entirely to them, as that the
approbation of the Government shall not first be requi-
site and necessary before such works can be com-
menced. It was proposed in the Bill that advances should
be made from the Treasury for the purposes of
such works when so approved, and those ad-
vances were to be repaid in ten years, and
should be at an interest of not less than three- and-
a-half per cent. With reference to the mode of repay-
ment of these advances, the levy will not be made ac-
cording to the valuation of the county sessions, but ac-
cording to the poor rates' assessment ; and by that means
the burden would not fall so heavily on the poorer
classes.—(Cheers.) In very poor dstricts, however,
this system would not be practicable, and he proposed
that a grant of 50,0001. should be taken for the purpose
of giving employment in such districts, the works to be
undertaken by the Government; but those works must
be works which are of public utility, and this grantwould
not be applicable to any district except such as were
not able to undertake the expense of such works.
This was not an unusual mode ; there was a case men-
tioned in the papers which lay upon the table of the
House of a precisely similar nature, and in which a
larger amount was given by Government than was usual
on occasions of public works. The Act of 1 Victoria,
sec. 21, contained similar provisions. He also proposed that
commissariat officers should be stationed in various parts
of Ireland corresponding with the Chief Commissariat
officer in Dublin, and informing him from time to time
as to the state and supply of food in various parts of the
country, and generally with reference to the distress of
the country. With reference to the supply of food, the
Government did not propose to interfere with the re-
gular trade by which Indian corn and other grain food
could be brought into that country. He proposed to
leave the trade as much at liberty as possible.
He believed that the markets would be best supplied
without the interference of Government. There might
be particular cases in which, as in 1836 or in 1839, a
supply of food was necesary to be introduced by the Go-
vernment ; and circumstrnces might also at ise from the
inaccessible nature of the country in which it would not
be possible for the merchants to introduce that article.
In such places commissariat officers will be appointed
to furnish the supplies of food. He did not
propose to interfere either with the wholesale or retail
trade.---(Cheers.) With reference to the relief commit-
mittee the Government would take care to avoid those
errors into which the late Government had fallen,
and guided by the experience they had received, he
hoped to be able to meet effectively the serious distress
of the country, and he hoped to avoid those evils which
had arisen from members of the relief committee giving
tickets to persons who did not require such
relief. The officers to be employed would be the com-
missariat officers, and any others whom it might be
found necessary to employ would be also paid by the
Government. In stating this, he was bound to state that
the correspondence which had been laid upon the table
of the House, and everything which he had heard from
private sources, showed that there never was a work
undertaken with more zeal and intelligence than the re-
lief of the distress of the people of that country last year.
All the persons employed by the Government. whether
you spoke of Sir E. Bryan, the chief officer of the com-
missariat, or Colonel Jones and the officers of the
Board of Works, or the local persons employed, or,
generally speaking, the members of the relief commit-
tee, all evinced the utmost desire to give all their time
and attention to the relief of the existing distress, and also
to endeavour, as much as possible, to afford every light
to Government, by which this relief might be carried
on in an efficient manner. Having said this, he should
propose to the Committee, first, to vote a sum of money
to defray the expanses lately incurred—to direct further
advances from the Exchequer—and, lastly, to vote a
grant of 50,000/. for the promotion of public works in
Ireland, in those poorer districts to which he had alluded.
Ile considered that the present was a special case,
calling for prompt attention.—(Hear, hear.) lie did,
therefore, think it incumbent upon the Government
and upon the Parliament to take extraordinary measures
for the relief of that distress, and he trusted that there
would be at least one counterbalancing advantage attend-
ing this distress—that it would show the poorest among
th people of Ireland that the Government of this
country were not insensible to the claims which they
had upon us as the Parliament of the United King-
dom—(Cheers)—and show that the whole credit
and means of the people of this country should
be used, as it was their bounden duty to use them,
and as they would be used where they can to avert
famine, and to maintain the people of that country, and,
lastly, to take advantage of this state of unfortunate dis-
ease to establish public works which might hereafter be
of permanent utility to the country; he hoped, therefore,
that some counterbalancing advantages might arise
among those many misfortunes which must attend this
state of things. He need not detain the Committee auy

country ?—(lfear, hear.) Did the Noble Lord ever hear,
or could he point out an instance in the history of this
or any other country, where restrictions were placed
on t'm importation of provision in a time of
famine or scarcity ?—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
He said this was a very serious matter. Supimse the
Noble Lord the Member fur Lynn were put into power,
why, the first course he would take would be to rein-
state the old law on the importation of corn. There
were still heavy duties on beans, peas, and
rye—all important elements in food. Surely, he
said, the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government would not continue these duties
at a tune like the present—a time of starvation. Sup-
pose a hundred persons should die of starvation during
the recess, what, he asked, would the flouse, what
would the public, say of the Noble Lord and the Go •
vernment ? They would immediately ask why they
had not removed those duties from the statute-
book. The distress was not confined to Ire-
land. He had had a communication that
morning—he would not trouble the House
with it—but the potato crop, according to that letter,
had failed. in various quarters. What, then, would be
said if the people of England were pressed to the verge
of starvation, it not to starvation entirely ? The lets
Secretary for Ireland, when he moved to introduce
Indian meal into Ireland was in these circumstances
—it was prohibited altogether ; and the
Honourable Member for Wolverhampton the other
night was in the same absurdity as the Right Hon.
Baronet pointed out before, when he remarked that
Indian meal was at the same duty as barley ; but that
being removed peas were in the same absurdity. He
hoped the Noble Lord would not continue that state of
things, especially during a time of starvation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it
was with the greatest satisfaction that he had heard the
speech of the Hon. Gentleman opposite, and particularly
that of the Hon. Member for Mallow. It was satisfactory
to the Government to hear that it was the intention of
the Irish landlords to co-operate heartily with the Go-
vernment in the promotion of public works in Ireland.
The present Government were much indebted to the
wisdom of the late Government, for the present mea-
sure. The late Government had had the experience of
eight or ten months in providing for the distress in Ire-
land, and it would be absurd to say that
in the course of that time they did not
propound measures of great improvement, which must
naturally have suggested themselves to those officers
whom the Government had appointed to make a full
inquiry into the condition of Ireland; and if there
were any excellence in the present measure, it was
owing in a great degree to the praiseworthy exertions
and wisdom of the late Government. He
could not agree with the Honourable Member be-
hind him, that the measures of the late Government
for the relief of Ireland, had turned out to be failures.—
(Hear, hear.) By the evidence in the blue book which
then lay on the table of the House, it was
proved that had it not been for those very
measures the people of Ireland would have been
subjected to the greatest distresa.—(Hear, hear.)
He did not hesitate to say that in many parts of the
country the existence of the people was owing to the
measures of the Government—(Hear, hear,)—and not
oily was the existence but the peace of those people
to be attributed to the same praiseworthy exertions.—
(hear, hear.) And with regard to the food which had
been introduced into that country by the Government,
he believed it had caused a new state of things
in that country, If Honourable Gentlemen read the
public papers, they would find that, in consequence of
the Indian corn that was continuously being poured into
the country, the country had received an incalculable
amount of good. Indian corn was cheaper and more
nutritious food than potatoes; it was much cheaper than
oats, and he confessed that he was sanguine in the ex-
pectation that the substitution of Indian corn for potatoes
would produce a complete revolution in the social con-
dition of the people of Ireland.--<llear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman, who, was heard very indistinctly
during the whole course of his address, then proceeded
to say, that he should be extremely sorry if he antici-
pated that the measures of the late Government, and
the measures proposed by the present Government,
were intended to be permanently established
in Ireland. Those measures, in a great degree,
arose from the failure of the potato crop, and the conse-
quent distress of the people. The state of things was
temporary, and had been and must therefore be met by
temporary measures. The Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir
R. Ferguson) complained of the way in which the Board
of Works was managed. The operations of that
Board in Ireland were in the course of last year
greatly increased, and without any lengthy notice ;
and were taken for the purpose of relieving
the people of Ireland from the pressure of distress,
caused by the failure of the potato crop, to ensure the
supply of food, and next the employment of the people,
by putting into their pockets the wages of their labour.
In this way the people of England had paid half the ex-
pense of these works. They were not, in all cases, works
absolutely necessary at the time they were undertaken,
but adopted as a commendable mode of relieving the
people by employing them and by paying them in that
way for their labour; and there was a distinct order
issued by the Treasury, that the proposed works to be
undertaken were not to be commenegel without the
existence of distress, and not to be carried be
yond that period. The works were, as he had
said, undertaken hastily, when, in many cases it
was utterly impossible to know their exact extent
or cost, He trusted that they might profit by the ex-
perience they had thus obtained if a similar necessity
should arise. They were carried on under the superin-
tendence of officers appointed by the Board of Works,
which was a guarantee that they were under proper
superintendence. The sole object of these measures
was to put money into the hands of the distressed, but if they
put the directions of the works into the hands of private sur-
veyors and contractors, they would render their intentions in-
opperative. He did not think that relief could be carried out
upon an extended principle unless the local gentry would ac-
tively co-operate with them. They were most anxious to avoid
introducing the machinery of the poor-law into the applica-
ticn of these measures, as they wished to treat it as a mere
temporary emergency, nor did they wish to prejudice the
question of a more extended and liberalised system of the
poor-law to Ireland upon the principles of the English poor-
law. And the Government felt that if they did pursue such
a course they would have prejudiced that question which he
hoped would soon come before the House for discussion.
He must say, that those officers had conducted the operations
under them in the most efficient manner. He was quite cer-
tain, that in any future operations for the relief of the condi-
tion of the people of Ireland, these gentlemen would be found
most invaluable assistants. While the Government was de-
sirous of finding beneficial employment for the Irish people, it
was their desire that, in the main, the assistance to be given
should come from the country itself, and that the relief of the
distress should not depend entirely upon what aid the Go-
vernment might be disposed to bestow.
Mr. M. GORE approved of the measures Government were
adopting towards Ireland, and strongly recommended them to
pay some attention to the fisheries of that country. Let them
continue to pursue a liberal policy, and the union would be-
come a blessing instead of a curse upon the sister country.
The vote was then agreed to.
Mr. ESCOTT, on the vote being put, said, as he had got
no answer to his question, he begged to ask the Noble Lord to
consider the fact whether he had ever read, in the history of
any country, of a tax upon food when the Government was
announcing famine? And he gave notice that he would in-
quire to-morrow whether the Noble Lord was to continue the
laws restricting the importation of corn during a time of
famine.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he thought the Hon.
Member had given sufficient answer to his own question. He
had said, he supposed the House considered the question settled.
Now, if the Hon. Member supposed this, and if the House
was also of opinion that the question was settled, he felt he
ought not to interpose in any matter which was settled.
The vote was then put, and agreed to.
The other votes were agreed to, without remark, and the
House resumed.
The report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow.
On the order of the day for going into a Committee of
Supply,
GREAT BRITAIN AND THE SPANISH COLONIES.
Lord G. BEN TINCK rose, and said, he had to apologise
to the Noble Lord for having returned from the country to
trouble him on that occasion, and he sincerely sympathised
with the Noble Lord toiling at that season of the year, and he
wasisoi ry to increase his labour. But he was sure he would be
borne with by the Noble Lord, and the House, in calling the
attention of her Majesty's Ministers to the trade between this
country and the colonies—a motion of the greatest importance.
It was a grievance of many years endurance, a matter on
which the merchants of Liverpool had continually remonstrated
for twelve years. In 1835, they applied on the subject
in vain, and in vain complained to the Duke of Wellington,
then Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. They made
frequent remonstrances to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs,
and after changing the Whig Government, from 1842 down
to the present time, it had been a matter of repeated and con-
tinual complaint with the merchants of this country that by
the regulations of the Spanish Government—by the non-
reciprocity of that Government to the free competition to
which they had admitted their ships into the ports of this
country, they had not lost the whole, but very much the larger
part, of the carrying trade between this country and the Spanish
colonies. He (Lord George Bentinck) had to apologise to the
House—imperfect as always was the manner in which he
brought these matters before it—but he must apologise on this
occasion for the more than usually imperfect manner in which
he would have to address the House. It was only within
the last few days that his interposition had been
requested by the merchants of Liverpool to endeavour, under
the present circumstance, to make some new effort with her
Majesty's Government to exert themselves under the Spanish
Government, to see that justice was done to British interests.
It would be with more than his usual imperfectness that lie
would address the House on this subject, because, in the short
time since the request of the merchants of Liverpool, he had
not been able to go through those returns connected with this
subject, and which he should have preferred to have laid before
the House. But he thought that, for the purpose of calling
the attention of her Majesty's Ministers to this subject, it
would be sufficient for him to lay before the House the infor-
mation which regarded former years, whilst he stated that
there had been no change iu the circumstances connected with
this carrying trade. He would begin then by stating to the
House what the difference was in the charges on goods carried
in British ships and those carried in Spanish ships,
and having, pointed out to the House the great difference in
the amount of duty, and to the restriction of the British carrying
trade he would show to them what were the effects of that sys-
tem. He held in his hand a staternent—it was one that was
laidbefore his Grace the Duke of Wellington eleven years
ago, but it remained good up to the present time—it was a
statement of the amount of duties that would be charged upon
the merchandise and cargo sent from the port of Liverpool,
and the goods that were sent from the ports of Spain. The
value of the goods exported from the port of London was
19,075/. It consisted of 1,000 bales, valued at 150/. ; of 1,000
yards of cloth, valued, at that time, at 1001. ; of 1,000
yards of linen cloth, valued at that time at 100!. ; of 1,000
pieces of other fabric, valued at 8001.; and a quantity of other
goods. Upon the vessel reaching the Havannah the distinc-
tive duties levied were 21i per cent. on goods imported in
Spanish ships, and 30i per cent. ad valoruni upon goods
landed from British ships. To make up the cargo
100 pieces of printed calico, valued at 5001., of 1,000
pieces of other fabric, making a sum total of 1,975/.
The duties levied at the Havannah upon the goods imported in
Spanish ships amounted to 582/. 18s. ad.; but if they had been
imported in British ships the duties that would have been
charged would have amounted to 8261. Os. 6d.; making the dif-
ference no less than 243/. Bs. 9d. upon the same goods if im-
ported in a British instead of a Spanish ship. This discrimina-
tion in duties involved another discrimination in tolls, which

were imposed at different ports of that country. The port the respective countries in the year ISIS on the subject of
dues at the Havannah were five ryles a ton on British vessels; Cracow, and contended that it was the duty of thisco
untry at
ryles upon foreign vessels ; six ryles a day for every 100 least to remonstrate against these violations. They irigh atnot
tons of Spanish shipping, and 10 rules a day on every 100 tons have succeeded in preventing it, but it was their lut vi to have
of foreign shipping. The result', of all these duties was, that taken some step in the matter. The question he wanted to know
it rendered it so much the more advent ageous to export goods in was, whether any remonstrance had been made on the part of this
Spanish ships than in the ships of this country ; and that country. Recent transactions in that country showed the ne-
whilst in 1833 no such thing as a Spanish ship loaded with cessity of some interference, and he believed that if a British
British goods was seen in the pert of Liverpool, at the present consul had been appointed to Cracow much of those atrocities
moment they were not uofrequent. The difference of the might have been removed, the details of which were so revolt-
duties, as he said before, on the real value of British goods_ ing that they could scarcely be credited. It would be some
exported from this country, amounted to this, that it was 411. 6s. satisfaction to those who took an inter, st in the unfortunate
6d. per cent. when exported in the ships of Great Britain, Poles to know that steps had been taken by this Government.
and 291. 83. 6d, when exported in the ships of Spain. He hoped he should live to see the day when Poland should
This grievance had endured for more than twelve years. once more assert her dignity, and free herself from the despotic
America felt the grievance as well as England_(Hear, hear.) tyranny of those nations which had oppressed her. It might
Spain had endeavoured to run her " rigs" upon the Ameri- be said that he was indulging a ferlorn hepe,'but he thought
can;. but they were keen enough to resent the attempt ; and that such hopes, if kept up, would tend to preserve and keep
within two months they introduced and carried a measure of alive the feeling of liberty in the bosoms of that generous people,
restrictions equal to those placed by Spain on the shies of Mr. M. MILNES felt that in that House individuals might
America. But, while Spain carried out these unfair duties make remarks upon the conduct of foreign Governments
upon English ships, England had placed no discriminative which members of this Government might not think it prudent
duties whatever upon Spanish ships visiting her ports. It was to make. He considered that the principle of non-interference
true they paid a heavier pilotage, but upon their goods there was in general the best. He believed, however, that the present
was no disitinction. In 1838 the following was the de- question was one of right, and might afford some grounds for
Glared value of cargoes of various kinds, consisting of remonstrance, but he did not know to what good purpose
earthenware, glass, hardware, iron, coal, and bales remonstrance could tend unless they were prepared to resort
of unmanufactured goods of all kinds, comprising sup- to the ultima ratio regiuns. If they did that, he could under-
plies from all the manufacturing branches of the coun- stand why they should complain of the violation of treaties, but
try. In 1838 the total declared value of the otherwise it appeared to him to be utterly useless, and worse.
goods exported to Cuba, was 462,927/. ; of this traffic there Cracow was as independent a town as Hamhro, awl by the
was carried by the ships of Great Britain 61,4871., by American treaty of Vienna this was distinctly secured. There might be
ships, 92,7811., mid by the ships of Spain, 318,534. In 1839, some difficulty in reconciling the 6 h and 9th article of that
of the declared value of the exports to Cuba, the ships of Great treaty, but he could not conceive a case so unjust a' the inve-
Britain took 37,9171. ; American ships, 69,9031. ; and Spanish sion by an armed force of the territory of Cracow. If bands of
ships, 265,106/. In 1841, the next return he had obtained, conspirators were plotting against the peace of that republic,
the declared value had risen to 518.3991., of which 33,0381. that was not a just reason for the armed occupation of the
was carried by ships belonging to Great Britain, 49,446'. by territory of Cracow. It was the duty of the protective
American ships, and 428,264 e by Spanish ships ; so that, in powers to investigate the subject, and to assist the authorities
fact,
the ships of Spain carried 13 times the amount of the of Cracow to suppress those conspiracies,' but there was no
ships belonging to Great Britain. This was the effect of ad- justification whatever for the occupation of Cracow by Austria,
milting the ships of foreign countries on the same footing as and their retention of it to this moment.
The accounts of
those belonging to Great Britain. He had obtained no return the transactions which took place there
e were
o very
thryem
confused,ost
since 1841, but he knew what was going on at present at Liver- but it could not be doubted that some
pool. lie learned that there were six Spanish ships loading for revolting scenes which occurred in Galicia were
the Havannah there, and but one British ship.--( Hear, hear.) unparalleled in the history of the world. The lion. Gentle-
The British ship measured 176 tons; the six Spaniards 1,296 man. after describing the relationship that existed between the
tons. This was the state of British commerce at Liverpool at peasants of Galicia and the proprietors of the land there,
pro-
this moment, in consequence of the great advantages which the ceeded to say that 1,478 landed proprietors were massacred by
Spaniards had over the British trader. Now, he considered the peasants, and brought to the Austrian Government in corn-
this was the appropriate time to bring the subject under the I pliance with their orders. 60 or 70 of them were priests; and
consideration of the Government, because they were on the in one family there were no less than 16 individuals destroyed.
eve of making a great alteration in the sugar duties, which He would now ask, were the authors of these cruelties, these
would increase the payment of this country to Spain nearly a unheard-of atrocities, punished? No; they were not. Nor
million per annum. No doubt the greater part of the money was there the least inquiry into the matter. Now, these were
would be paid in the goads of this country. and it was highly historical facts, and could not be denied. If they occurred in a
important that Government should take this matter into their distant country—in any place—he thought they were bound in
serious consideration.—(Hear, hear.) He would recommend that House to call upon their own Government to remonstrate
her Majesty's Ministers to follow the example of the United against them. With regard, however, to Cracow, this country
States. There was a new doctrine proposed by the Right was bound by solemn treaty to inquire why they were perpe-
Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth—that it was be- trated, to investigate the whole circumstances, and to guard
neath the dignity of this country, or rather of the free-traders, against their occurrence. He would not enter into the ques-
to haggle in commercial policy. He said he disagreed with tion of conspiraey, as alleged against the proprietors ; but if it
that entirely, and thought that if it was vulgar, it was essential was really so, why, he would ask, were they not dealt with
to covenant with foreign countries for boons, before gifts were by the ordinary political and military Governments. The Aus-
offered by this. It might be stated, that we ought not to at- trian Government had no reason to apprehend any fear, if the
tempt to bully foreign countries into a system in alleued conspiracies really existed, for they had an army of
concurrence with our own views, but he thought, 80,000 men at hard. on receiving the first intimation that a
for one, that they ought to look to the interests of revolt had taken place. He trusted that he had brought for-
Great Britain solely—( Hear, bear)—as long as they ward this case in a spirit of moderation, and he earnestly hoped
were consistent with the principles of honesty and jus- the Austrian Government would be able to justify their acts;
tice. His Noble Friend, above all men, would have the be.t but he must, at the same time, express his conviction that they
right to insist upon speedy justice, because his Noble Friend, would not be able to do so.--(Hear, hear.) lie was sure,
when in office in former times, never shrunk from insisting however, that if they did not do tardy justice in this instance,
upon the rights of England, however strongly, or however in the end, when they needed assistance, the provinces of
powerful the courts might be with which it had to deal.-- Europe might so construe the treaty as to refuse to give it
(hear, hear.) He feard not France, arid he (Lord G. Ben- th, m.
tinck) thought that the Noble Lord should have no delicacy in Lord PALMERSTON said, however much they might be
pressing this matter upon the attention of the Government of disposed by their feelines to go back into events connected with
Spain, and insist that forthwith Spain shall remove those dis- the former history of Poland, they ought to confine themselves
criminating duties which were imposed upon the ships engaged to the eve its which had occurred since the ratification of the
in the carrying trade of the people of England to the Spanish treaty of Vienna. The metion which his Hon. Friend the
colonies, and the practical effect of which would be to shut nut Member for Pontefract had made he could not bring himself to
the ships of England from the cam ing of sugar fronaCuba to Eng- concede to. His [lon. Friend moved for the production of a
land. If things remained as they now were, he feared that the correspondence which took place between the British Govern-
effect would be that those ships which were thrown out of went and the Governments of Austria, Russia, and Prussia ten
the West India trade, and also out of the trade of Mauritius, by years ago, turning upon a state of things then existing, and
rivalry in sugars brought from Spain and the Brazilian cob,- relating to matters which had long been settled and determined,
nicer, would find no employment to support their trade of car- and which could in no way serve either to instruct or enlighten
tying sugar from the Havannah and Porto Rico to this coon- the House upon the immediate occurrence which the Hon.
try. He thought, therefore, that on this subject he had done Gentleman had brought under their consideration.—( Hear,
no more than his duty, and he hoped he would be pardoned by hear.) The correspondence was simply an expression of
the House for having trespassed upon its attention, whilst he different opinions upon certain rights and claims; and it could
called that of her Majesty's Government to the great grievance be productive of no good results to rip up those matters
under which the shipping interest of Great Britain was now which: had long been buried and settled, and which did not
labouring. bear upon the question now at issue.—( Hear, hear.) He did
Mr. MILNER GIBSON said, the Noble Lord need have not attach so much to the appointment of a consulet at Cracow
offered no apology to the House for calling its attention to the as some lion. Gentlemen did, because had such a functionary
subject which he had now brought before their notice; for a been appointed when the subject was agitated in 1536, he could
subject of more importance to the shipping interests of this only have communicated information which must have reached
country could scarcely be brought under the consideration of just as quick, and just as authentic, through another channel.
the House. The Noble Lord had correctly stated that there —( Hear, hear.) Now, he should be quite ready to give his
was a tariff prevailing at the present time in Hon. Friend those papers, and that correspondence with regard
Cuba, and that it had existed there for many to the present state of things which had been moved for in the
years ; and that by favouring the Mauritius ships it other House of Parliament.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.") It
had well nigh excluded the British ships from the carrying was impossible to deny that the treaty of Vienna had been
trade connected with that island, both with reference to the violated by the recent proceedings in Cracow, and it must
importation of manufactures with Cuba, and also with refe- be remembered that not only were Austria, Russia, and
retire to the exportation of produce from Cuba. But the re- Prussia parties to the conditions of that treaty, but there were
cent changes which had taken place in that tariff, and which Great Britain, France, and other powers, who were parties to
had had effect since the Ist of March of the present year, had, it. There could be no doubt that those who drew up the treaty
in some respects, made its operations more unfavourable to intended that it should protect the small state of Cracow ; and,
British interests, whilst in other respects it had tended to mi- indeed, the treaty itself provided that it should be placed under
ti,,ate its effects. With reference to tonnage dues, there the three powers of Austria, Prussia, and Russia. But while
had been a change, but that change experience had proved it was placed so far under the control of those powers, it must
had worked more favourably to the interests of England than be admitted on all hands that the treaty gave to Cracow the
was anticieated, for the change was introduced previous to the rights, privileges, and responsibilities of an independent state.
regulation with respect to the compensating difference between The Noble Lord having entered into the details of the recent
the tonnage as measured by the Spanish laws, and as measured occurrences in Cracow, which have already been given fully in
by the laws of Great Britain ; and the Spaniards had The Sun, proceeded to say, that the entrance of the Austrian
had the option given them whether they would army was a decided violation of the treaty of Cracow,
pay twenty-three per cent. additional tonnage duties for the treaty provided, that under no pretence should the
or submit to be measured in accordance with the Spanish armies of the three adjacent powers enter into Cracow.—( Hear,
laws. Those who had submitted to the measurement by the hear.) He was, nevertheless, firmly of opinion that the three
Spanish laws, had found that the tonnage dues had worked powers had not the remotest intention of departing from their
favourably for British interests ; and so, though nominally engagements of the treaty of Vienna, and he entertained little
there appeared a difference, there was nothing in reality but a or no doubt that the three powers would place the republic of
mitigation of duties. The statement was not true with re- Cracow upon the footing on which it formerly stood.—(Hear,
spect to duties on goods imported in British and other foreign hear.) At all events he hoped it was the intention of the
ships, but it was true with respect to the duties imposed by the three powers to do so. He had no knowledge to the contrary,
quarantine laws. In both these cases the differential duties, but he thought the House would find from the papers which
with respect to England and other foreign countries, had been he should produce some intimation or assurance of their
increased ; and in the case of the quarantine laws it was per- intention to restore Cracow to its former position —(Hear,
feetly tree, as stated by the Noble Lord, that though all Spanish hear.) He entertained too high an opinion of the sense of
ships paid the same quarantine fee, British and other foreign justice and of right which must animate the Governments
countries were required to pay twice as much.—( Hear, hear.) of Austria, Prussia, and Russia, to believe that they could
The Noble Lord could not wonder that this apparent indecision have any disposition to treat Cracow otherwise than Cracow
should have existed, on the part of Spain, to remove the ditTe- was entitled to be treated by the treaty of Vienna. He
rential duties on British ships and British goods, because it was quite sure that those Governments must be sufficiently
would be in the recollection of the House that, upon a very sagacious to have seen the force of that reasoning, to which his
recent occasion, when there was an endeavour, on the part of lion. Friend the Member for Pcntefract had referred, namely,
Spain, to place such a construction on the commercial duties that the treaty of Vienna must be taken as a whole, and it
between this country and Spain, as would have entitled the could not be permitted for any power to depart from one article
goods of Spain to have been brought into this country as the which did not please them, and at the same time to act upon
goods of any other foreign country, England declined to another which might happen to serve a particular purpose of
sanction such an interpretation of the duty, and, in the most their own.—( Hear, hear.) It could not have escaped the
distinct and emphatic manner, entirely repudiated all idea sagacity of those powers, that the treaty of Vienna, if violated
that there existed anything to prevent reciprocity, or in respect of one state, might be violated in respect of all the
intercourse such as usually took place between nations in strict states it embraced ; for instance, if this principle of violations
amity with each other.—(Hear.) That he believed was, at was applied to a state on the banks of the Vistula, it might be
any rate, the construction placed by Parliament on our con- extended to the German States on the banks of or adjacent to
nexion with Spain, on the recent question that arose with the Rhine, or those on the banks of the Po.—( Hear, hear.)
He
respect to Spanish rates. Spain demanded that sugar, the was, therefore, convinced that a sense of policy, a sense of
growth of her colonies, should be admitted into England at the self-interest on the part of those powers would induce them to
same rate as the sugar of other foreign countries. England re- say that the treaty of Vienna must be respected as a
fused to admit this claim. He did not mean to say that if Eng- whole.—( Cheers.) It must be for their interest that
land had conceded that claim, that Spain would have been pre- Cracow should be restored to its former position, and it was
eluded from placing higher duties upon British goods, and his firm conviction, that Austria, Prussia, and Russia would
upon British ships, than upon her own goods ; but he could respect the treaty of Vienna, and restore Cracow accordingly.
safely say, had a more liberal and larger construction been —(Hear, hear.) He should have wished to avoid adverting at
placed upon these treaties, it would have gone far to have in- that moment to the other topic which the Hon. Gentleman
duced Spain to have acted in a more kindly spirit towards had brought under his notice, but as it related to events of a
British commeroe, and reduced the differential duties which recent occurrence he could not allow the observations of the
affected British ships and British goods going into the Atlantic. Hon. Gentleman to pass by unnoticed. Now, it was perfectly
It was not for him to state what course her Majesty's Govern- true that Galicia formed part of Austria, but he differed with
ment would take, but he took upon himself to say that he did his Hon. Friend, in thinking that there was a nything in the
not think that it would be the one suggested by the Noble Lord, treaty of Vienna which gave the British Government the right
namely, that of retaliation. of interfering in the dispute in question.—( Hear,) While he,
After a few words from Mr. M. GORE, which were very however, said this much, he was perfectly ready to admit that
imperfectly heard in the gallery, Hon. Gentlemen, standing in that House as they did as the
Lord PALMERSTON said that his Noble Friend would representatives of a great and a free country, had a perfect
bear in mind that the ground which any Government would right to discuss and express their opinions upon the events
take, in remonstrating against a fact of this kind, must depend which bed recently taken place in Galicia. Indeed, it could
on the terms on which they were with respect to the country. not be expected that an independent Member of the British
There was no reciprocal treaty between England and Spain, Legislature should have any restraint put upon him, to prevent
which would entitle the English to demand that their vessels his expressing his views and opinions with regard to such mate
in Spanish ports should be placed upon an equal footing ters; but it was widely different with respect to a member of
with Spanish ones ; but her Majesty's Government would, of the Government, who could not always be at liberty to avail
course, feel it their duty to take advantageof the earliest oppor- himself of so much latitude for comment and observation.
tunity of endeavouring to place English vessels on as favourable He was afraid that his Hon. Friend had understated the
a footing as possible in Spanish ports. He objected to the matter—( Hear, hear)—but he (Lord Palmerston) had not
principle of retaliation laid clown by the Noble Lord ; as he did had an opportunity of referring to official information ; he was
not think that it would be likely to lead to any good result. If speaking from informat ion which had just been published and
there were good grounds to think that the country upon which laid before the other House of Parliament. And he believed
the retaliation was to take place would yield to it and give way, that if the facts which had taken place at Cracow were fully
then the prospect of ultimate good might induce them to sub- published, they would be found to be without example, he might
wit mit to a temporary evil. He was, however, very sorry to say almost say in any age—( Hear, hear)—but certainly wheat
(fe r whtear.)
that experience showed that such measures were attended with example in any modern history of Eurionp
no good result, and he thought that the object would be much
olirekncootiwlnd
bnyottbbeelGieovveertnhmatentth.ele(prizacre,ehde.aige.s.)—w.were swaansctniootneind
better effected by peaceable measures.
Mr. DISRAELI thought that the principle of retaliation a condition to deny,
had not been well laid down by the Noble Lord. The retali- proceedings wertea
regulatedmreenwotlurwl wouldgovernedwhich oo c say disbelieve,
oydrniet s.habseeolinioe local
ol
Friend,
authorities.bel thatiev
e thosethe
Natoiobnie, mLuosrtddehpaedndcoonnfocuinr
dcuedmltpanzieisapsfor notlt
unintentionally
that thoffences had made,
retaliation, or a retaliatory duty on an article of corn- but he was convinced hose must have caused
cincetes:tionTalhlye etoierrwecatsneasfsmoidf theh statement
tathtee
—merrectiaahl exchange, with a retaliatory duty on an article of corn- great grief and affliction to the Government of Vienna. He was
merce with another country. There was no analogy or afraid that a Government like Austria, which prided
similarity between the two instances. In order to show the itself upon the maintenance of order, and upon a
success of the principle, he would refer to a return from the Government that was called paternal and kind
port of Havannah, dated July 18, 1546, from which it ap- and conservative of the honour of subjects which were under
peared that the number of American ships in that port was its sway—he never could believe that that Government could
nearly five times that of the British ships. During the last have learned, without the greatest pain, afiliction, and distress,
twelve years the United States had been pursuing a retaliatory the deplorable proceedings which had taken place at Galicia.
policy with regard to Spain; and we, who had been giving the Although it was not convenient for the Government of Eng-
Spanish ships the same advantages as ships of this country, land to interfere in a matter so exclusively confined to the Go-
were now entirely excluded from the carrying trade. He was venunent of the country in which these transactions had taken
convinced, that if the principle of the United States were pun- place, yet, as an individual Member of that House, he might
sued in England, it would in the end be infinitely better for the be permitted to express his conviction that the enlightened
commerce of this country.
men of the Government of the empire of Austria would feel
Mr. FLUME thought that the principle of retaliation was it to be, notorrlytheirtoduttayk,obustuwer
sltdepa3lsoasfemeligithtthebie in r
pleasuretheir
one which ought, if at all applied, to be applied very cautiously. and their satisfaction
This country did not take the sugars of the Havannah ; and, it powfersansoitnttoheremdrleass: ftorethmaitseux:aiessiamopdosesailbamle,itloeusttthomhiatidgarte.e,
was not to be wondered that there should be more American as ar
cently taken place iny Galhicia.—( Hear, hear.) He wouldat say,
vessels in that port than of English, therefore, that he trusted his Hon. Friend would excuse hire
FLOGGING IN THE NAVY.whichfeelhimhesehlfadatmlaibdeer;tybutot
hacecethdeeogthot the
that
ptarh;
corporal punishments inflicted on the crews
Mr. WILLI A.MS moved for a return of the number of
of
f
ihe
Oculardmid nototion
her Majesty's ships of war in commission, in each of the years, papers which he (Lord Palmerston) was prepared to give him
1834 to 1845, both inclusive ; also the number of men subject would afford him more practical information on
the subject
to corporal punishment, and the number of lashes inflicted in of these transactions than were, in vent of fact, asked for
each ship in each year; also, the number of seamen who de- by his motion. Ile could assure his Hon. Friend, that so
sorted from her Majesty's ships in commission in each of those far as recommendations from this Government to that of
years; also, the amount of prize-money, or from grants of Austria went, he would do all in his power to mitigate the
public money, received by each of the commanders-in duel, evils complaioed of—( Cheers.)
captains, commanders, lieutenants, and able and ordinary sea• Dr. 110 WRING said that the Members of that House, and
men, who served in her Majesty's ships at. Navarino, Acre, and the people of the country must feel greatly indebted to the
in China. In the present state of the House, he would not Noble Lord for the speech which he had made on this sees-
press his motion to a division. He would be content with a s:on—( Hear, hoar ) The Noble Lord had referred with
similar return to that granted upon the same subject in the regret to the circumstances which had taken place, and had
army• made a very important acknowledgement to this country, and
Admiral DUNDAS then laid upon the table of the House to the world—namely, that the treaty of Vienna, to which
some returns relative to the subject. this country was a party, had been broken—( Hear, hear)--
TREATY OF CRACOW. and he hoped that it might go forth to the world that the
ke
M first
Mr. HUME moved for copies of any correspondence be- Austrian Government, who had been the arti to ma
he He
es
twoen the Government of her Majesty and the Government of that treaty, were the first to break it.—(Heam
Cracow, Russia, Prussia, or Austria, relative to the appoint- could not but feel that this question, which
had bee
! onsmfoolr-i
a r . )
ment of a British consular agent at Cracow since the decla- tunately brought forward by his Hon. Friend was but
thhs I
those on
Poles
ration made by the Minister of Foreign Affairs in the House system of a great disease, and though it might suit the I ern-
of Commons, in the year 1936, of his inten- hers of that House to refer to the stand of
hold gone
tion of sending a consul to reside at Cracow. by, as one that would never return,
and to.
He regretted the course which this country had pursued with who still sighed to see their nationality recognised, and grieved
reference to Cracow. He thought It discreditable to the and languished for the restoration of the rights and liberties
Government of this country; they were guarrantees for the of their country, as entertaini House ng wild hopes, he
thou would
liberties of the people of Cracow, and those pledges should be venture to remind that thatthough
faithfully kept. He should be sorry to see any step taken Cabinets had sanctioned the destruction of the rights
which might endanger the peace of Europe, hut he really of Poland, that the crime had not yet been expiated,
thought the subject should be explained by the Noble Lord at and that the popular opinion which alone could give a sanction
the head of the Government. He thought the cow-hearted- to treaties—that same popular opinion had never recognissid.
ness of this country had allowed those treaties made with that foul misdeed.—(Cheers.) Poland must be subject t• din
other countries to be broken; they had stood by while these quietude while the
wrongs were enacted, and instead of standing forward to the present evils existed in that country there, la
"no of that coun-
present state of things rernsinue.d.•
continue
prevent these violations they had shrunk into their shells, to be the friends of freedom and of the r d MI?
i the bo= of
seemingly half frightened to interfere. The Hon. Alernter try, who would demand the restorationa
then went at game length iota the treaties entered into between demands, and hopes would have r'
pleas; and their