The Sun.
London, England, 1846-02-24 00:00:00

THE SUN LONDON., TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY Q 4, 1446

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a.PrOPer distinction between persons convicted and not con-
:eted ; fora lunatic might take away life--he might commit se-
murders,
be immediately convicted;
eral murders, or other crimes of less magnitude, for which he
where
but it would be extremely hard,
tin combinations, and no crimes like those pointed at in the
17existed, that the Lord Lieutenant should order a
044 es in the shape of compensation, to the rela-
tions of the
sse
sil
it... Considered that if the inhabitants rose up and arrested the
b °, ho committed a crime, they ought not to be punished
7 tne infliction of penalties for such crimes: Icew. worthy
_efricnnethveedirthatdships' observation, th at in courts of e us it had been
many of thole crimes were committed by strangers
~___
trother counties, and he (Lord Clanricarde) thought
:7 here it could be proved that the perpetrators of crime
onfint:oht to justice no penalty. ought to be imposed.
therspoint also, which was, that he thought that
t„,lsosv.ir oftranssi ,rtation for life should not be given by the
the signature of the- Lord Lieutenant being
obtained. With respect to the change
0 peers tll.irureevr oewubwis tri::
e.._, emu', he thought it was very often a &sad-
/7;11e for a man to be tried in another county.
It ot" was a bad character and was .sonvicted, he thought
portant that that conviction should take place in the county .
where th
I re-
.e e act was committed. There ought to be, also,
irume' ece to the gentlemen of the county, to take the
ter, stances into consideration. But these were mat•
eotlormore detail. He rose to say he was more and more
he had d that such a measure was necessary; from what
ditty, b heard, the Government were tardy in doing their
the
tit he would give them his cordial support.
disPoesee tad of WICKLOW said he was not in the least
' then ht g. e
iiR -'
t° iv any opposition to the Bill, because
respeet g it an exceedingly useful measure. With
'Peso t° the - observations of his Noble Friend re-
of winig the permanency of the Bill, he (the Eerl
hen ''''kei) begged leave to observe that, as the Par-
Pet Met
Meat, or every year, it was in the power of the Govern.
aleasei. any individual Member, to move the repeal of the
Dity
0: any'
desirable. He would take that opportu-
,°,klects ,gis,ing his opinion that there are two great
'4it ,‘,":' Be attained for the prevention of crime in
was wS7:lltry, and it appeared to him that the Bill
was framed for the purpose. There was another for. the
ells Nem f bringing to justice the perpetrators o crim .
'lleri °_,and Learned Friend alluded to that subject. He (Lord
the detZe) considered that it was quite as necessar to secure
Apeo,:eslisf;tihio: and conviction of criminals as it was to prevent
_ the
'etails 'l,°°°lcrime. Their Lordships saw the result of thiein the
Peased ‘s"ivb had been read to them, from which it ap-
it was impossible to find witnesses to
tildis whit d, or jurors to convict. In other coercion
uougit-t'ltirh had been enacted, and in the last one,
tieectirc then 11 . Lord Grey, there was . a provision
that th,t _ eonviction of criminale. He did trust, therefore_
tli, pre; kiovertiment would introduce clauses to this effect into
ivet, teint
iiill, or would bring in a Bill specially on the su-
t'isbiseii„oe ',feed riot at this stage of the proceedings make any
.
'"cse fe- t°, the Bill, but would content himself at present with
,Thee 4 ',serrations.
6 il of
1„ CLAW', ARTY did not wish the discussion to
5,,fn tiv‘ing,.';' to a dote without' making a few observations
ts-... then A-,:, t,he rovisions of the Act. In the first clause
.17.41 Pt to' It Was stated, that . -when. murder or an at-
s.'" Lie murder was committed in any district,
athe
s'o'tiotai etenant would have the power of sending doen an . -
's did iiburnber of constables and magistrates to that lecaley.
'tiißlt think that this was the most effectual mode of
'''' t.''' case for local knowledge was an object of greater
Thai (Nesse . ,
hoe' un'r ' than numbers of policemen and magistrates.
deti t° ess the stipendiary magistrates were to be a perpetual
'''3iesthe country (which God forbid), the Noble Lo.r
se4,l" ere-id
not: be obtained by them. The local magis-
ste :ft) -,*(' seel a greater interest in the preservation of the
Itsistans, t9't district. They would, and could, give moreas-
h filsth:° such cases as these, and it would
.be more like)
tautest the the ends of ' justice. The police magistrate
e;est i ,c,_ same focal knowledge, nor does he feel the same
4474114 'fle well being of the district. .If the police courts
sli aise'sfeere Pieced in more immediate relation with the
mssltsatile,a,tes, no person would have more ready access to
„ r ard'..; "'an they would; to none would information be
t‘ficdrediteedt'Y Conveyed, provided he were looked upon as a.n
le net me ccer for maintainingthe peace of the country. He
D;: the an that sort of information held in such abhorrence
i,'Pele erl'e,°Pie of Ireland—information made for the
.:,;iieerr;dotairee-,g the rewards offered by Government, hut
k,„ to land) to that information which a poor man may make
seme
,f4'f‘sst, rord, who, as a magistrate, might turn it t
,'late '4. the prevention of crime ; which he (the
.Ear.l
'lL'lne° the Y) maintained,' would be much better than vindi-
e,' did Justice of the law after the commission of crime.
li j'tdiervtlt wish to cast any imputation upon the
le 44 to '',l. rosisistrates ; but could their upon the
5, 'lts Yf1g1.55 '
but could their Lordshi s
~tre,, "lat large catalogue of crime!, those unclaimedop
ie'hlise le!I those offences which had hitherto gone tn-
,''stlis ' without coming to the conclusion that, notwith-
J Este g the
ii,th- , eri,,, great increase in the . administration of
Iss 'uht had, nevertheless considerably _ incr.eased.
4-'tiet,, a reference to these circumstances might raise the
LINN to "ether a paid or unpaid magistracy were the proper
ti,rrier timev entrusted with authority in Ireland.
.Again, in
la* T there had been causes for dissatisfac-
)l's hail e were thegrievances of the penal statute.
e,i'rted re ton however, all g been removed. Again there
eh! ef e„en.g!'r exclusive privileges. They had had aeventesenn
.
eo!'s, triliatory measures, they gas had. C. athoihlcdembeee
I)4;Se,', t.,7 R.eform Bill, Protestant
.sociations . a _ _
kh oe fu he tithe had been comparatively extinguished, the
10,%19 ;ds., had been withdrawn from the Protestant
15;4 and
Placed at the disposal of a board which
Stib'el f, te the Roman Catholic than to the re
ofs,h'ee-lt" He might add that the Church of Rome
shoesisyer, ' inctioned in Ireland, and last, not least, the college
k I at le had been endowed. He thought that these Atcttes
lf,'Peretel..ast a disposition on the part of. the Government
Of tiliiiihed ;' the establishment of peace in I I
tot,
tke Act 0 call the attents in of the House to the provisions
sf ~,-"e e ' He thought that the clauses which provided
es,j,4 0-„rcilies of persons murdered In the present. state
11 "eisl:,4itrY should be recast. An alteration in this
ee h,_ would add t the utility of the measure.
test keot that their Lords)i s should previde some enact-
li, rstes-i,'!hieh the poor should be compelled to resort, instead
rsNid'ing as mendicants upon the face of the country; and
j; re th saY that it their Lordships did that, they would do much
I,:lssd.an this Bill could do for the peace of the people of st.: els
_lrk! the prenerate been applied to that yurpose—
st,ser, mass of the poor Of that country been relieved, the
11; 144;(1!stitution which at present was so fearfully
Ths people to so great a measure tended
. to demoralise
lei / were '• would have been considerably lessened.
.si it. 4 lmpoverished and forced to associate with de-
tereese :Vert and thus were brought about those
IV' tft',4sod'shed the details of which had been laid
14' n. sir Lordsh'ips. Under other circumstances
leos•nrders
Lb, g is would not have been committed. But
and eoesttse a number of destitute persons peTvaile..cl
ki led 'Y, without any stake or interest in it,
sjti at stubl medicant life, they need not be sore
sti:4l as Z. a state of things as had been detailed to them.
tseev Would ;retell and wretchedness prevailed in Ireland so
st,"'nse, asise Peace of the country be destroyed, despite such
hsTeviiise-se9se present. He could not sit down without
this asisolsiTa very deep regret that the case of he-
el legal be year after year draeged. _ before
psui %jun'''. which was calculated to give such
ite rh...:. . imPression of the character of its
,reilion . 44 Irishman he felt indignant, because the
theglishme that was thus created in the minds of
tie are} was very touch the reverse of what
laid is Lori Y. deserved. They were not such as
s.;, hetes; 'ti,"Ps Might infer from- the details which had been
k„,,4 111,,,,,ir1,!r• The Government ought to bring forward
4 i‘ leo'
i. . as were calculated to make the people comfortableo
L a , leo, and they might then expect the country
.t
Via`'" Pete•eabl .- would effect its
s,,e elose e eonditition, Such measures . sse, so more than any coercive measure which they could
44nel cite,
tif c 4 fr "PBELL thought that the observations which had
r, tee cles the Noble Lord who had just sat down were worthy
„ssr
..,_gstratest consideration. He wished to make a
'toiste ves eations ors what had fallen from his
etild and Learned Friend (Lord Brougham). He
t, tiot presum N Pl 2 ti his _to offer any obstruction to the Bill, but
ehle and Lesarrsl
Itiitsttapnlaeteefdremb pi' against a doctrine propounded by Ins
tietrioe, that in the %leen& He must protest against the
yth et hpilsaceliCisil:tech
, e of things :Itirloboof such cases as was con-
fe , parties should be tried at a
dienn which
.1, de. That there might bea
NI pity, and witnesses declined thsite would not
tir,4;:eourse was not to be would be necessary to do
in vshi h juries would not do
tk giving they evi
"qtrii;:tit.t.seess But he bad noaxetraordinary
• *e ' 'd nce. But
ellessinunsaerneg,
yi that such a
4 01 It was made a standing law, dimonitywould be an invasion of
t4Oisliggathkand privileges of the people. He defended that
&Nit k_ ue common law of England that the accused part
lee tried in the neighbourhood of the place where the.
n'kit f,P4 committed. The advantage to the individual
h had
ettsTed in the neighbourhood of the place was, that he
hisd
qt„°_PPortunity of establishing his innpcenced.
amongtant place.
, ":11, who knew his character, than in a
Zntid 11:1 ise was dragged to a distant part,. thei difficulty
a% the t')' Produce his witnesses. It might be
~„
~_ ern„ Government should be compelled to pay "`
Zty esseefs
(17.1ese witnesses. But it would be
et,. eels take witnesses from their employment
impossitbolediisn.
~, 41Pat,t' and then the accused would suffer from want of
0,,, , S evidence. Beside 3, the trial and conviction of a
t,,ield ha'
7ten the nig,liboullood where the offence was committed
t;,cte te,.t. a greater effect than it could have in a distant part,
tri:iNrael;alte had never been heard of. If the Executive
orbit in 1,,,,.k1,waYs had the power of selecting the place 0
teie`!„asy ' `ltival cases, they might commit the most
4 Nered "Ps,----(llear, hear: ) A man who vv,4llld. be
, Vy ho Innoeent in his own neighbourhood, and might
iii',lttoitit "8 , committed no offense must be carried to
ir.t.'l4lt.iiare-r‘ ef the country, where Prejudices existed against
11,'Ivil of,
s-nts, political or religious and he reight be unjustly con-
te,s Noble" eenisliett for an offence he had never committed.
1:4 *a, th and Learned Friend had 'stated, that practically
I,,tgked „! 1.0, of England, but it was not so. The law of 1,,,,t4ty xis:rereled that the trial should take place only in the
i, 'setee the offence was committed, subject only to the
emPttree,e c.,brrovisioo, that upon cause being made out, the
es,l., th, 7 !-' t of Queen's Bench might change the venue, an _
eel ° he had
.41to take place in the county where a fair trial
e,,,,ery,v The criminal law of Scotland, he regretted. to say,
l':s,; el the,. 47'1Urable to the criminal. The civil law, how•
l',;:suil 1-1'„".-'°untry was the best'in existence, and the law of
le; s it• 1,-" often borrowed
it ':
4'. th4“t the eritni aia wnloafnScotlan.d
.was arbitrary and
kh'''Cl %IA -.` extreme•n
i, it, i'Pesed • The Court of Justiciary
.in Scotland,
* t ''s te "old do what the leased with crminat ,
44° the T he regretted that they dyidpnot always acts.accord-
,.4l%sett‘%ll,sjitte:elistottfepru.dence or justice. 'fill lately, in Scot-
t: h% ti 'llOO4 1 et the jury, he too the panel, and named
e pole co se upon the jury ; and within the last six
eeto.iteer to
trurt
of Justiciary in Scotland declared. that
think
tinge' „'Y to exile eats any new offence which they might .
L '' lee. or policy, or justice. There was a differ
itiaies„:r
.vsith r'egard le' the punishment which ought
it,' , laid, sh lur the offences which had been referred to.
s''"neet. si,Th en lif' but t li gtl it was agreed' that the
11,1Q1114 Ati,',l:,'ititi'Zitiod
tblivo''ta7triesrt,io,l•,teatiUliiiots
lliseorhil Cockburn was the
hoped that the prac-
te,,,t.it forl'!eseeileil in Sc Aland would not be a conclusive ar-
b. had
miltdeadoption in Ireland. —( Hear.) If the G.overu-
lireeowee, th out a strone. case for giving them this arbi-
i''Ule ended then' might lave been entitled to it. But he
" 4, 41swer 111. ths measure introduced by the Government •[„,d_e eb;e_., the purposes required. He strongly concurred
:t.,,t5:, ag:ii,',Liwris which had fallen from many Noble
4,thltq uf ; eotlnuing the measure for an indefinite
~.s„,‘ ri,4 at th:estilt.to pesiod.—( Hear. ) If the state of the
'ulcult 1° a sit Pu'ation of the law sought to be established
t_4l‘..or.,e.isi eo_nsetate te allow its abolition, there could be no
t' '• glilteg%Hilig it.
I - thet ip:
oefers4;o. ;a A M wished to say a few words in explana-
seikw ..arliy e .
(ieV¶T said the law of England.was similar
t
ktl'illat,ii ' down i ° with respect to the violent crimes sought
teos. el,ero n Ireland. He said that underlhe law of
fti4tlee.Leti°n• were eases in which it was, difficult to obtain
~tsittst, , He we 's was notorious in smuggling cases, for in-
`vil in e \,i) had tsar y his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord
I teem s entian,i. the trouble to show what a bad law ex-
e• that
r. . Wih respeet to them, however, he simply
1,,,,41 tea 'i-ies,l, °I might come out of evil. His Noble and ii!LitieePect to ttargotnent was the same as that used by him
!km for that )bogy privilege question, in which it was main-
Ile ice !t viols
e might make any punishment they
4 it eioo of the privileges of the Houses of Parliament..
ue a great general improvement if it were

the law generally. He was quite sure, if his Noble 'Friend
looked into th- Act, he would find that a Fimilsr one hadbeen
proposed by him ( Lord Brougham). There were two Acts, and he
recommended his Noble Friend (Lord Campbell) to refresh
his memory by reading them. He felt it his duty, when in-
troducing those Acts, to create court-martials to try alloffences,
and
.giving a power to condemn a man to transportation for
life.' In the 79. h clause of the same Act his Noble Friend
would find what he had stated to be correct. He did not enter
into these general questions at all. But the venue Act, which
was not opposed, passed in the month of August, and he (Lord
Brougham) was quite sure there were not such excesses as at
present.

•
Lord CAMPBELL said he would not enter into any con-
troversy with his Noble and Learned Friend, for it was well
known he was a Scotch advocate, and it would be very much
for the advantage of his country if he had never changed his
intentions.—(A laugh.) In his Noble Friend's Bill, he mis•
understood what was its intention, for as they say, their
Lordships did not make the law, but were only to de-
clare it.

Earl GREY said, before the Bill was read a second time,
he wished to say a few words, and he was bound to remark that
his Noble Friend had made out a sufficiently strong case to
justify Parliament in arming the Government with additional
powers. He deplored and he regretted that a case had been
made out for passing stringent measures, but he could net but
remember that that was not the first Bill of that description
that they had been called on to pass. For the last half century
since the union took place there were no five consecutive years
in which the ordinary law of the country was sufficient. A suc-
cession of Acts had been passed at different times for the purpose
of arming the Executive with additional power. With what effect
towards the pacification of the country, the fearful state of
things which the Noble Lord depicted in introducing the
present Bill was evidence, the tendency of which no one could
mistake. After that statement it could hardly be supposed
that this Act, which was of a similar nature, would be suf-
cient to repress the insubordination which existed. They had
no other alternative left but pecuniary grants. So tar as
eleeme ynary relief could meet the distresses of the country,
Parliament afforded that relief ; but, notwithstanding all the
Acts which had been passed for the purpose of repressing
outrage, and notwithstanding all the grants for relief that had
been made by the Imperial Parliament, no permanent or
effectual improvement bad taken place in that country. This
proves that they ought not to continue in that line of pro-
cedure. They were bound to go to the root of the
evil, not merely to repress by arbitrary power the
commission (of offences against life in that country,
but to take away the spirit of disaffection which
prevailed. He therefore thought that Parliament would
not be doing its duty if it did not pass a measure of the kind
he referred to. He was well aware that the second reading
of the Bill was not the time for the discussion of those mea-
sures; but, he said, that if before that Bill left the House some
measure of the description he alluded to were not introduced—
if, before the third reading of the Bill, we are not given some
full and wise policy which her Majesty's Ministers mean to
adopt—in that case it will be the duty of this House not to de-
lay the passing of the Bill, not to refuse the Government those
powers which are necessary for the protection of the poor man
even more than the rich, but, at the same time, by a solemn
vote to record our opinions upon the necessity of coupling with
this measure measures of the kind to which he had alluded.—
( Hear, hear.) So strongly did he entertain the opinion, that
if no other Noble Lord of longer standing in that Hoarse, and
more entitled to claim the attention of their Lordships, should
be prepared to bring forward such a measure, he should take
upon himself the task, when the present Bill was to be
read a third time, to submit to their Lordships, in
what shape he had not yet sufficiently considered to be enabled
to state, a resolution in an address to her Majesty, calling upon
their Lordships not to rest satisfied with the present meas ire,
or with these other measures of immediate relief, to which lie
would give his cordial consent, and to lookmore deeply into
the present condition of the people of Ireland, and to endea-
vour to apply some remedy commensurate with this evil. He
considered it better to reserve any remarks which he might
have to make upon the details of the present measure. He
would, however, just say that he cordially approved of the prin-
ciple of that part of the Bill which sought to throw upon those
districts of the country in which offenses took place the burden
of providing for the support of the bereaved families, and the
expense of giving rewards for the discovery of offences.—
( Hear, hear.) He believed this was a sound and wise princi-
ple, and he hoped that Government would render this clause
more perfect, and make them permanent enactments. He
could not help protesting against the alteration sought to be
introduced by a Noble Lord. The effect of the alter.
ation would be to induce juries to find persons guilty
upon insufficient evidence, because by finding these persons
guilty the district to which the persons who composed the
juries belonged world be relieved of all expense. He con-
sidered that there might be a temptation which might act upon
the minds of the juries to relieve the districts in which they
lived by unfair verdicts. He thought that, in the shape in
which the Bill then stood, an inducement would not be given
to jurymen to convict parties, and, therefore, he thought the
amendment sought for by the Noble Lord would not be an im-
provement. He agreed, that though the cost of those crimes
on the district in which they were committed was perfectly
proper and reasonable, the population had great means at
command for the prevention of crime, if they were inclined to
support the law, for crime only recurred because it was
unpunished. It was his opinion that the district should bear the
pocuniary expenses which arose in consequence. There
was another point to which he particularly wished to
call the attention of their Lordships. He thought
that a clause should be inserted in a Bill to limit its
duration. A Noble Lord had suggested that the Bill
should be repealed. He thought that his suggestion was the
better one, because no Government would propose its renewal,
unless circumstances were such as to justify them in asking it.
In the present stage of the sill, he was not prepared to dissent
from it ; but he hoped that the clauses which had reference to
the punishment of persons out between sunrise and sunset
would be considerably modified.
After a few words from the Marquis of WESTMEATH,
the Bill was read a second time.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Monday, Feb. 23..
THE ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. E. BULLER rose to open the adjourned debate, but,
from the confusion that prevailed, owing to the
number of Honourable Gentlemen who, at the moment,
left the house, his remarks dal net reach the gallery.
He would briefly refer to the arguments used by the Hon.
Member for Shrewsbury, with regard to the question then
before the House. Those arguments consisted not of any new
proposition, they were hackneyed statements always put forward
by the protectionists viz., that an excess of importation would
lower the price of labour. The House would at once perceive
that the arguments brought forward were merely old
ones, which the talent of the Honourable Gentleman
placed in a brilliant light. He had sent forth a jackdaw
in the plumage of the peacock. He ( Hr. E. Buller) would
endeavour to show that those arguments used by the Hon.
Member were founded neither on a just principle nor on sound
policy. The Hon. Member had said that England could vie
with other countries. He told them to look at America, and
see if there was any great party there founded on either class
interest or politics that would advocate such a measure
as the one proposed by her Majesty's Government, or
would they find any public man who would give
it his countenance or support.—( Hear, hear.) The
only way to induce foreign nations to adopt freo trade was
for this country to set them the example. If they were to
show those nations the advantages that were to be derived from
adopting free-trade principles, they would not be slow
to follow our footsteps. He was one of those who believed
that it was wise to fight hostile tariffs by free imports.
The amount of imports from France, from the year 1833 to
1844, increased to 3,000,0351., whilst the exports of this
country to France advanced to 3,340,0001. On the other hand,
every year proved tl e necessity of this measure. Instead of
sending English gold to Russia to purchase Russian goods,
which they would sell here to a disadvantage afterwards, they
would have the advantage of being able to get those goods in
exchange for English goods. He knew how much had been
said upon this subject already, and therefore he did not intend
to delay the House much longer.—( Hear, hear.) But the
Honourable Member for Shrewsbury had warned the
House not to pass this measure. Now he knew nothing of
the arguments of the Honourable Member, but he had
heard that the Honourable Member mentioned the Turkish
empire in connexion with the question. He would say nothing
of the absurdity of comparing the two countries. One was a
country pre-eminent for its commercial prosperity, while the
other was one possessed of a people so proud and haughty as not
to be able to appreciate the value of commercial enterprise, and
who knew little or nothing of the steam-engine and power-loom.
(The Hon. Gentleman then quoted several passages from
flati Sharaff, Prime Minister of the Grand Sultan, in
order to show the benefits of a good administration. )
The greater the supply of food to the working classes the
greater was the chance of elevating their moral and physical
condition. A cheap and plentiful supply of food enabled the
poor man to rend his children to school and to give them a moral
education. 'fhe Hon. Gentleman the Member for Shrews-
bury had been looked up to as the embodiment of a 6‘ great
idea," and he (Mr. Buller) had listened with much anxiety
and attention, on Friday night, expectit'7 to hear the
enonciation of some great principle to govern the new genera-
tion, and which was to shed light and happiness on the
world. And what was itjthat the Hon. Gentleman proposed ?
why, to give a preponderance to the agricultural interest—to
give power to one class. Now, he could notadmi‘iitetmhebeprrifno-r
prin-
ciples which had been propounded by the Hon.
Shrewsbury (Mr. Disraeli). If those principles were to
be adopted nothing but confusion must arise. It was
neither more nor less than saying that for the
benefit of class interests the whole community
must be distressed. The next question was that which
had been proposed by the Right Honourable Baronet First Lord
of the Treasury. The great question was, whether protection
was right or wrong, and what course they should adopt con-
cerning
it. It appeared that the country was divided into two
great parties—the moneyed and the industrial, he ought to say
the agricultural interests. If they favoured one, they could
not but injure the other. It was evident, therefore'
that protection was either a delusion or a fraud. If they were
to protect one at the expense of the ether, it was making the
Sovereign of the country not the Sovereign of the people,
but of a faction or a party. He could not see how the dis-
tinction was to be drawn. They had been told
that protection ought to be shown to the colonial interests.
If such were to be the case exclusively, what reason would not
they who have to do with foreign commerce have to com-
plain of the restrictions imposed by the duties on the articles
in which they dealt ? It was, in fact, giving a benefit to one
portion of the empire at the expense of the rest.
la conclusion, be would thank the House for the attention they
had bestowed on him, end he would merely state, that feel-
ing the necessity and importance of carrying the measure as
speedily as possible, he should give the Government his humble
but most cordial support. They had, in circumstances of pecu-
liar difficulty, followed a course most consistent with their own
honour and with their duty to their Sovereign.—( Hear. )
Captain BATESON observed, that during the whole of the
protracted debate but one Irishman had spoken to the question,
and he,therefore, rose to state thzt he would give his most decided
opposition to the proposed measures of the Government. He held
in his hand an extract from a report by Mr. Leonard Falk-
ner, a Factory Commissioner, in 1845, in which he states that
a vast number of accidents arise in consequence of the cogs of the
wheels of the " throstle break" not being properly " boxed."
The Hon. Member having concluded reading the extract, he
said that the recommendations contained in the report for the
amelioration of the ,condition of the working people in
factories had particular reference to the factory of
John Bright, Brothers, of Rochdale.—( Hear, hear.) And
he would now leave it to the House to say whether
the Honourable Member was sincere in his sympathies for
the poor, whether his regrets for their condition were not
feigned, and his philanthrophy spurious.—(Hear.) One
word more in reference to that Hon. Member, and he had
done with him. He had been asked What was the compara-
tive duration of human life its Wiltshire and Manchester, but
he did not think proper to answer the question. But he
(Captain Bateson) could tell the House that in Wiltshire
the average duration of human like was thirty-three years.
while in Manchester it was only seventeen. —( Hear, hear.)
Having made these observations, he would now confine his
remarks to his own unhappy country. No man regretted more
than he did the failure of the potato crop in Ireland; but
would it not be a mockery to say that the people of Ireland
would be benefited by lowering the price of the agricul-
tural produce of a people, eleven-twelfths of whom
depended upon it for support ?—( Hear, hear.) The
Drainage Bill would be one which, under the fostering
care of protection, would much benefit Ireland.

Employment had been acknowledged on all hands to be one of
the most efficacious means of relieving the misery and distress
that prevailed in Ireland; and he (the Hon. Member) had
fondly looked forwaid to the improvement of land as a means
of increasing employment, when prosperity would be certain
to increase in proportion as distress diminished, and so would
the people of Ireland be vastly benefited.—( Hear, hear.) But
if the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman should be carried,
could any person expect or suppose that the landlords would
lay out their capital with the certainty of loss staring them in
the face ?—(Hear, hear.) Could the tenant afford to reclaim
the bog and sow it with corn, so as to compete in the market
with the foreigner, who had the advantages of climate and land
in a superior state of cultivation 2—( Hear, hear.) No ; the
bog would remain barren, and the hill-side would continue to
grow nothing but heather ; and one of the chief channels of
employment would thus be blocked up. He felt strongly
on the question, both far the sake of the agriculturist and
manufacturer. In the north of Ireland the hand-loom
weaver was often a farmer; and under the present system of
protection, in one small town 18,0001. worth of linen was sold at
the weekly market ; but should the present measure pass, trade
would be destroyed, and the agriculture of the country would
he shut out by means of foreign competition. He protested
against the measure as being an unnecessary, a hazardous, and
a revolutionary scheme.—( Hear, hear.) No doubt the mea-
sure would have the effect of stimulating the advocates
for repeal of the union to increased exertions. They
would say to the farmer, " England has deprived you of the
advantage which her markets have hitherto given for the sale
of your corn, butter, beef, and pork—your occupation is gone,
and you are in no better position than the foreign trader,
and can you now refuse to cry, huzza for the repeal of
the union ?" He would again implore the House
to pause before it placed so dangerous a weapon in the hand of
designing agitators. He confessed that it was with feelings of
apprehension and alarm, that he looked forward to the proba-
bility of this measure passing into a law, the consequence of
which it was impossible to foresee. It might be the fore-
shadowing of another revolution which would affect things
of a more vital interest, and lead to the destruction of all for
which we oncessprized the English constitution. He would
not take up the time of the House by alluding at length to
the smallne-s of the compensation which had been given to
Ireland, he should only state one fact, which was, that in Lon-
donderry the average charge for the police force for the last
three years was 2,2171. 10s. 5i., which was a very small
fraction above Id. per acre. If the Government had intended
to relieve Ireland, why not forego the repayment of the loan
for the erection of workhouses in that country ?—that would
have been considered a real boon. At present the only persons
that would be benefited by the compensation would be the
midnight legislators, who require a large police force. He asked
the House if it would sanction by its deliberate decision—
would the House declare that there was to be a new faith for its
Members—were its Members to become weather cocks, veering
about at every breath of popular opinion, to point out tl.e
quarter from which the blast of agitation was strongest? He
should still abide by the old war-cry of the country, " No sur-
render I" But, however, let him give them this warning, that
while they were advancing the doctrines of free-trade, they
did net injure the very cause which they most desired to serve;
that whilst they were urging proceeding on the impulse of this
age, and endeavouring to go onwards, .let them take care that
whilst their progress was onwards, it was not at the same time
downwards. Now, let him ask the Right Hon. Baronet
whether, in the concoction of this comprehensive measure he
provided for the contingency—for he was bound to provide for
all contingencies—if he had provided for contingency that in
the event of its proving by dear bought experience that his
measure had failed—that in the event of these acres which he
was now throwing out of cultivation remaining untilled, supplies
from abroad failing, the industry of the great manufacturing
districts being paralysed, and famine and want staring that in-
dustrious community in the face, he begged to ask the Right
Honourable Baronet whether, in the event of such a contin-
gency as that, he had made any provis'on for retracing his
steps, and restoring the country to prosperity and abundance—
" Facilis descensus averni, sed revocaregradum hic labor est."
Mr. MONTAGUE GORE was anxious to justify the
vote which he was about to give, and the opinions which he
now entertained of the subject before the House ; and he was
anxious to do this for the respect he entertained for a great
party within the House, and also fora great party out of doors.
In doing this, he must beg to remind the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down, that if there was a consistency which
was a great and noble quality, and which he hoped would
alwjays ba met with in this country, there was also another
species, of which obstinacy and self-interest were ingredients.
When Hon. Gentlemen talked about changes of opinion, he
could convince them that in every great question which had
agitated this country there had been great changes of opinion.
On that great question of the corn-laws a great change of
opinion had taken place in those who bad in 1814 and 1815
maintained that any price below 90s. a quarter for
wheat could not be remunerative. Mr. Huskisson, in
1814, was a strong advocate of protection mea-
sures ' • and yet, as every one knew, he subsequently de-
clared that the corn-laws could not be maintained. If it were
an error to change, then were the public and all parties guilty
of the charge. He (Mr. Gore) would consider himself un-
worthy of a seat in that House—he would consider himself
unworthy of taking part in any public debates—if, when con-
vinced of an en or he did not come forward and manfully and
frankly avow it. But he considered it a very material point
that a question which distracted public councils to such an ex-
tent should have a settlement, especially when no injury could
arise to any of the great public interests of the country from
its being done.—(Hear, hear.) When they locked
to their colonial possessions—their Indian empire—they
must see bow desirable it was to their interests that these
measures should pass, and that energy should be imparted to
the executive Government. Ho would not have voted in
support of the Minister on the mere plea of the necessity of
a settlement, if he were not convinced that these measures
might ba passed without detriment to the public interests.—
( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary
for the War Department, made use of a term which has been
laid hold of in a sense which he did not mean it to signify ;
he said, that the agriculturists were acting under a delusion—
he meant under mistaken views. He (Mr. Gore) perfectly
agreed with him in that opinion, for it was quite a delusion
to consider that the country would be deluged with an inun-
dation of corn. He would just state the result of his inquiries
on this subject. According to Mr. Jacob's report in Dantaie
the price of wheat averaged at forty shillings
the quarter. They should then add freightage and the
expenses of landing and lading. A friend of his stated that he
paid 4s. Bd. for freightage, Is. 4d. for insurance, and 6s. 91
for lading and landing, in all 12s. 9d. Another gentleman of
the highest respectability makes it 10s. At Odessa, in 1840,
wheat averaged 345. per quarter. And he had been informed
that for freightage it was usual to pay 8s 6d., insurance is. 4d.,
and lading 55., in all 14s. 10d. Another gentleman made the
extra charges amount to 15s. With regard to capital being in
those countries, or that they were progressing in agricultural
improvement, he had only to say that those countries did net
possess either capital or improved agriculture, because the facilities
for conveyance were so few- and bad that capital could not be
in-
vested there and labour was wanted there, because the present was
of feudal tenure and the labourers were little better than serfs. In
Odessa matters were not better than in Dantzic, because the roads were
not only bad, but the corn was brought by bullocks, and they were
so scarce that very little competition need be feared fro n that quar-
ter for many years. It bad been said that an immense inundation
of corn might be expected from America ; but there was a great
want of capital in America also, and labour was very high there,
and the cultivation of the land net good. (The Hon. Member thee
read a speech delivered at Albany, by a member of an agricultural
society, to show that the corn crops of that State were often defi-
cient, and did not in some years average twelve bushels an acre. In
the course of the debate many allusions had been made as to what
would be the remunerative price to a farmer ; and he should then
say that, in his opinion, a more difficult question could not be put,
for if there existed a diversity of opinion en any question, the present
was the very one.—(Hear, hear.) If they looked at the great lin-
provement that had taken place in agriculture, they would find that
a corresponding improvement had taken place in manufactures. If
they took the history of the country for many years past, they would
find that, where an improvement took place in agriculture, a corres-
ponding rise took place in manufactures. This fact was evident in
the year 1760, when manufactures began to rise in importance.
Where large towns sprung up, and the population rapidly
increased, the two branches were most flourishing, and
his opinion on that point was backed by the best authorities.
He mentioned a remarkable circumstance regarding Spain. '1 he
Spanish people had pursued. a system of restriction with respect to

their colonies, and nothing but distress and disaster occurred. At
last new counsels prevailed, and a better system was adopted. What
was the consequence? Thecolonies immediately flourished, and the
people of Spain obtained great advantage from their improved con-
dition. This was In 1765. What was tht strongest feature of the
case was, that Cadiz, which was the place most opposed to the
change, was the principal places that was benefited by it. Another
circumstance which he would refer to was the great im-
provement made by the formation of turnpike roads. When
they were first talked of there was a great apprehension that
they would be a serious loss to their land, but it was
well known to what extent, as Adam Smith had shown,
they had increased the value of these lands which it had been sup-
posed they would have injured. But he would new revert to the
most important point which had been opened hi this debate, viz.,
the way in which the measure would affect the condition of the
poor. It had been asserted that with high prices there were always
high wages. Such might be the case it' the estimates were to be
taken from long periods ; but he believed, that if the times were
taken when there had been periods of greats scarcjty they had
always proved periods of great distress. He thought it would
he better to take the years us they followed each other, and he
sbriGemziiiil6:ll.lq6austa.irputeelrr7.q9usla,
~i,.t.reih7re9.77,ln ehie7harvest
hi
eawniatsbheceleenefircotipeandwt
as, tinhbagetut NtaVelhri
it
b tt
was
deficient in quantity; it had risen considerably in yPriene,
on
and the stock had been so kept down, that in 1799 wheat had risen
t • 925. 7d. a quarter.
as
st
continued
goli8::
as ei
n, u Nelvdol
51e
deficient,s when
per th harvaeit
quarter.a
1108808:
1.
td
risenhA anci
been
when ex-
tremelyth bad,e same it
Ilivaarsvue
spt
and bread was as high as Is. 1014 d. the four-pound hloaf. The corn-
law had no advantage t• those for whose benefit it had been
established. It could not be possible to name a period in which
greater fluctuation hi prices had taken place than from 1814 down
to the present time. He fhlly agreed in the sentiments expressed
by the Right Mon. Gentleman the Secretary at War. The
corn-law had no! worked so well as many Hon. Gentle-
men supposed for the welfare of the agriculturists.
Let them consider how the shipping interest had been
influenced by it. Nothing was so injurious to that interest as great
fluctuation in prices. Under a corn-law they had sudden demand for
foreign corn, which brought sudden demand for shipping. Freightage
of course rese, and the shipowners got great profits, but the moment
a variation in price took place, then the demand for shipping ceased,
and a very considerable loss was sustained. It should be
the object of the Government, when they reflected on the
poverty of their fellow-countrymen, to extend the means of
supplying them with the necessaries of life, by permitting
corn to be imported, not only from Europe, but America.—(llear.)
He did not believe that it was by unduly swelling any one interest
to an unnatural proportion that the well-being of the country could
be secured, but by cordially assisting to make equal laws for all, that
the symmetry and vigour of the whole State could be preserved. If
the permanent prosperity of this country was desirable, it could only
be decreed by equal laws. For these reasons, Sir, I shall support the
measures of her Majesty's Government—believing, as I do, that they
are based on principles of sound policy; and that they are calculated
to promote the general interests •f the empire. It is not by swelling
into unhealthy, because unnatural proportion, any particular in-
terest, but by fostering the general well-being of the state, that the

life-blood Is best distributed to every member, and the symmetry and
vigour of the whole preserved. I think that the true prosperity of
agriculture must rest, not en the enactments of your statute-book,
but on the energy and enterprise breathed into it by the spirit of your
free institutions, and guarded by the fence of your equal laws. And
if looking beyond the immediate precincts of this island I regard the
remote countries and the distant nations to which British commerce
extends—

" The shores watered by her wealthy tides,"
view her diffusing comforts, kindling enterprise, stimulating In-
dustry, quickening into life the germs of social excellence, and
shedding far and wide the invigorating beams of civilisation, liberty,
pure religion —I cannot refrain my cordial assent to mea-
sures which, by giving further development to , com-
merce, will diffuse such blessings to the human race. I
ask you not to consent to this measure from any dread of popu-
lar agitation, or from any wish to keep In power a particular Ad-
ministration—l feel that such motives would be unworthy of us as
Legislators, and as loyal English gentlemen; and while dissenting
from the judgment of Hon. Gentlemen who oppose these measures,
I honour and admire their firmness. But I call en the House to
come to a decision on this question with their hearts—to use the
simple and elegant language of that prayer with which we ausplcate
our daily proceedings in this House—with our hearts free from
" partial interests, prejudices, or private affections," and to 'give that
vote which, by laying on durable foundations the future greatness
and prosperity of this mighty empire, may conduce to the welfare of
the countless millions who are subject to its sway or dependent on
its destinies.

Mr. R. A. FITZGERALD said, that until a recent period he had
no intention of occupying a seat on the benches of that House, or
troubling Hon. Gentlemen with his opinions. However, witnessing
the awful vlsitation which it had pleased Providence to inflict on his
country, and drsading the consequences that might follow, he
thought it his bounden duty to attend there, and urge as far as his
bumble ability would allow him, to impress on the minds of her Ma-
jesty's Ministers the necessity of taking immediate steps to prevent
the horrors consequent on pestilence in that important portion of the
British Empire.—(Hear, hear.) It was with no small gratifi-
cation he had listened to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of the Ministry the other night, and most cordially and
warmly did he corroborate every statement made by him—most
willingly did he concur in every opinion advanced by that Right
Hon. Gentleman ; aid most grateful did he feel, also, to the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, for the
anxiety he had evinced in bringing forward measures for the pro-
motion and encouragement of employment—thus giving the people
of Ireland a means of providing tbod, of which they stood so much

in need. He regretted that both Right Hon. Gentlemen were ab-
sent, as he should feel a deep satisfaction in expressing to them the
feelings by which he was then actuated. But though he felt that
these measures would be productive of great good, yet they were not
of that comprehensive nature which the distress of the people of Ire-
land demanded. At the seine time, he had hopes, from the opinions
he hail heard expressed by Hon. Gentlemen, that measures would
be brought forward as further evidences of the good inten-
Huns of her Majesty'S Ministers towards Ireland, and their
wish to remedy the evils that afflicted that country.—(Hear, hear.)
He was not going to answer the statements made by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Londonderry, with regard to manufactures, as he confessed
that he was better acquainted with the details respecting land.
Neither was it his wish to notice the accusation male against Messrs.
Bright and Co., as he had no doubt if that Hon. Member were iu his
place he would be able to answer everything satisfactorily. With
regard to the measure now proposed, and the consideration of which
had occupied the House for so many nights past, lie would say that
he fully concurred iu its principles. He thought that tile agricul-
turists ought to have time for preparation, as the speech of the Hon.
Member for Durham had convinced him that any sudden change
would be more injurious than beneficial. He regretted the calami-
ties that had recently occurred to Ireland, and he felt sure that what-
ever happened to that ,c•untry would interest England;
but he certainly did regret that the connexion between
.the nations had not been of a more cordial nature.
Ile would take another opportunity of expreising his opinions en
that subject. When the measure of the Right Houourable Baronet
had been first spoken of, it had excited the greatest alarm, but only
amongst his own constituents in Ireland. He thought that the
measure was likely to be very disastrous, but the alarm was allevi-
ated by the statement, that in that part of the Empire conmeneation
would be given Ter any injury sustained. There is no doubt that it
would be needed, and they were quite ready to take them on either
site.--(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) When the nature, however,
of the measure was known, the whole of the alarm was im-
mediately dissipated ; and the country, and he himself might
say for his constituents especially, that they were prepared
to give their whole support to the Government. Some
Honourable Gentlemen were very much in the habit of talking of
going forward in legislation at a railroad pace. Now, he had no ob-
jection to going forward, but, at the same time, he should not like
to go downwards.—(Hear.) A steady pace forwardly would be more
for the advantage of this great empire The position of the Irish
nation was between the two parties In that House. They conceived
that their interests were generally opposed by the party on the Mi-
nisterial side, and they ust.ally looked upon gentlemen oil his (Mr.
Fitzgerald's) side as friends. The Irish people were now placed in
this dilemma. They were befriended by these on whom they had
been accustomed to look as enemies, and found their interests op-
posed by those whom they all along regarded as their friends. lie
felt satisfied that In the vote lie should give he would receive the
thanks of his constituents. He thought that the Right lien. Baronet
at the head of the Goveniment had evinced great moral courage in
the part he lied acted, and had shown himself werthy of that high
position which he occupied as the chief Minister of this great empire.
—([tear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet, in the measure which he
had brought forward, had considered the interests of the whole
nation, and had not sacrificed those Interests to the aggrandisement
of a class.—(Hear, and cheers.)
Captain LOCKHART, who was almost inaudible in the gallery,
was understood to say, that the products of this country required
moderate protection, but that one article of produce was not entitled
more than another to the exclusive advantages of protection. He
was elected a Member of that House, to represent a numerous con-
stituency on protective principles.—(Hear, hear, from the protec-
tionists)—and had heard no new principle or argument brought for-
ward which would induce him to change his opinion.—(Hear.) He
did not see that the House was to be called upon to repeal the
corn-laws, in order to remove a temporary evil—a simple provision
might surely be found for a remedy, without disturbing and destroy-
ing the different great existing interests. It had been argued that
the experience which had been seen since 1843 furnished abundant
reason for the abandonment of protection,. ./.1p (Captain Lockhart)
was of opinion, on the contrary, that Ole effects of the measure of
1843 were a strong evidence in favour of the continuance of moderate
protection. It had been presumed, that when Great Britain should
set the example of free-trade, the whole world would simultaneously
follow it. Such an idea was, however, purely chimerical, and would
not be relied on. The Hon and Gallant Member having briefly
alluded to the displacement of interests which would ensue in agri-
culture and commerce when the measure should come into full
operation, proceeded to say that he lied met with experienced
farmers, who were of opinion that the effect of the Bill would be to
throw much land out of cultivation. He would read a brief extract
from a letter which he had received from a friend, a practical far-
mer, who was a great admirer of the Right Honourable Baronet at
the head of the Government. "If," wrote his friend, " Sir Robert
Peel succeeds in carrying his intended Corn Bill it will ruin this part
of the country. The greater portion of our inferior land will be
thrown out of cultivation, and the grass land will in-a few years be-
come altogether useless." The. measure opened up an alarming
prospect for Great Britain. The policy which was now being pur
sued was similar to that which ruined ancient Rome, and it was his
sincere hope that it would no longer be followed up.--(Cheers.)
Sir GEORGE CLERK. after what had fallen from Hon. Members
around, would make a few observations. After the Bill had been so
fully debated, he thought it would be useless for him further to parti-
cularise its merits; but he would confine himself.
simply to its de-
fence. It had been stated that the pollcy of the Government resolved
itself into two heads, one of which was to provide for an emergency,
and the other to construct a system. One Hon. Member had said
that it was to carry out a new system of commercial policy. He
(Sir George Clei k) would altogether deny that it was to carry out a
new system of commercial policy. If his Right lion. Friend carried
out this measure, it would be merely a continuance of the principles
whichan d ah
had laugh,)
bee
pursued
l
which characterised the measure of 1842 ; or, to go further back,
n
those principles which the Right Hon. Gentleman entertained, in
common with the late Mr. Huskisson, in the year 1824. Even at
thought
that
this country for the last twenty years could not be considered
asconstructing
t
that period it had been stated that the Government hadrun wild with
the
nt to f notioloilinefwfrtehee
f
trade.—(Hear. (olffeapro,lichyear,
only of a temporary nature.---(Hear, hear.) He would go a little
further forward, with respect to the dreadful fate that awaited Ire-
land, than the present time. It must be borne in mind that potatoes
the emergency o a novel system of policy. As respected
the case, he wished he could consider it as
will be wanted for the years 1847 and 1848 and 1849 as well as for
the present year. The crop of the present year was se completely
destroyed that it would be impossible to furnish seed sufficient for the
next season. He had been informed in his own neighbourhood that
this disease had never been known before to have .reached so exten-
sive a height as at present The answer which had been made the
other night to a question from the Hon. Member for Cockermouth
with respect to this disease, would be a sufficient reply to
the Honourable Gentleman who talked of this matter as a
mere " temporary emergency." It was very much to bo feared
that this disease would not be confined to this year, bat there was reason
to apprehend that it 'would extend to the next and future years.
It was not to be wondered at, that they did not get parties to agree
On this subject of the potato rot, for it was very various in different
districts of the country ; and as gentlemen received their informa-
tion, so they held their opinions and expressed them. But there
was one test to which they might refer, as to what was the real
extent of the calamity. They wore all aware that the potato
formed a very large proportion cf the food of this metropolis,—what
then was the state of the supply of the London market? He found
upon inquiries, that the supply during the last four months of the
last half-year, ending in 1845, amounted to 770,000 sacks, while
during the same period, from the let of October last to the
14th of January, they had only 540,000 sacks, showing a falling off of
one-third of the supply to the metropolis (Hear, bear)—and if a
similar inquiry were made with respect to the state of theirlarge ma-
nufacturing districts, such as Manchester and Birmingham, they
would find that the difference amounted to a much greater proportion.
Let them now look to what had been the effect of this scarcity upon
Prices in London. At the end of January, 1844, potatoes by the ton
averaged from 50 shillings to 80 shillings; 'at the end of January in
the present year they rated from SO to 160 shillings, the
lowest price being nearly double what it was before. The poor
people would now be driven to purchase bread for food, and it was
an ascertained fact, that in those parts of the town inhabited by the

poorer classes, the bakers that before baked but 10 sacks were now
baking 12, showing an increase in the consumption of flour of 10 per
cent. When they took these circumstances together—when they
considered the crop had not been sufficient to supply the demand for
feud—although they had been importing largely for the last six years
—when they were aware that the whole supply for Ireland was
likely to be cut off —that there was already an increase of 10 per
cent. on the demand for flour, and that the reports from Yorkshire,
from whence their chief supply of potatoes came, stated that
that supply would. not hold out till the month of May—
he would ask them what was the best course for the Govern-
meat to pursue? Was it not their duty to endeavour to prevent
impediments from being thrown; in the way of an adequate supply of
provisions for the country.—(Loud cheers.) He should wish also
to advert to what was perfectly well known, that in consequence
of the great variability of the season, the harvest, though
not deficient in bulk, was exceedingly so in the weight and quality of
the grain. What was the effect that this deficiency had upon the
averages in last autumn, when it was of the utmost importance to
the country to procure a supply of foreign corn—when they knew
that the potato disease had extended over the whole of the country—
and when It was well known that the harvest In Europe had failed
to a very great extent, in consequence of which Holland and Bel-
gium had removed all impediments to the free imp rtation of corn?
—(Cheers.) At that very time we found that the price of
core averaged very low, while the averages of the duty
were moving in the opposite direction, and were rapidly
rising. No subject attracted the more anxious attention
of the Government than these facts. They compared week by week,
the quantities of corn exported with those imported, and they found
that the proportion of the former was very trifling. If they perceived,'
however, that the supply was not sufficient, would it not have been
their bounden duty to have opened the ports and prevented that
supply from being diminished by exportation ? And in such an
emergency the Government would be justified in taking upon
themselves to open the: ports.—(Hear, hear.) What was the
great argument for: the system' of the sliding scale? namely,
that it contained within itself a self-adjusting principle,
The Hon. Member had said a great deal of Russia, aid spoke of
that country as if Great Britoil derived the whole of her supply of
food from it ; but he would show the Hen. ifember that he was mis-
taken, and that England never did get from Russia this enormous
arreetedritoedt,hiEnnkgsleddhitdßautvaetrythdeetipeareiondt
ts. ouu ppwhich
fa
tfl hod find
tdhH: which
oe. hr
eM het emh appeared
ear
Hon. Member had to ransack the whole
world for facts upon which to support his argument. Now the fact
was, that in four years this country had received only 1,200,000
quarters of wheat from Russia. It was true that in 1840 food had
reached a famine price here, by reason of scarcity that year ; but
even
In fact, the Honourable Member had argued as if
Great Britain as the only country in • the world that looked to
other countries for a supply of corn in addition to its own
resources. But he begged to tell ties Hon. Member that there were
other countries besides Great Britain who received a large supply
from Russia, and who, therefore, took off a great portion of that
quarters.
during that year England imported from Russia only 317,000
te
supply which the Hon. Member had given England the credit of re-
ceiving. Then with regard to the United States, the llon. Member
had said that they were most fertile in the produce of corn; but he
begged to tell the Hon. Member, that from the great extent of the
population of that country, and the great increase of that population,
it was not likely that England could expect a supply to any con-
siderable amount from the United States. He found, by returns
which he had now before him, that since the year 1793 Great Britain
had imported less corn front the United States than from any other
country, except in the year 1840, and even then the extra portion
was but very small indeed. In the year 1840 the population of the
United States was 17,000,000, and during that year ex-
ported 10,600,000 quarters of corn, which left only four bushels
per head for the whole population of the country; but
corn not being the principal article of food in the country, it was
found that more than a sufficient supply had been retained for the
use of the population; but in the whole of the quantity exported
very little of it came to England But even supposing that the
argument of the Hon. Member was well founded, if the population
of this country should go on increasing in the same ratio as it had for
the last few years, he doubted whether this country could obtain
more than a sufficient supply of food for the use of its Inhabitants,
even supposing that all the available resources of Russia should be
developed.—(clear, hear.) He saw by returns he had before him
that in five years 10,000,000 of quarters of wheat had been imported

into this country, or at the rate of two millions a year, and yet was
any one prepared to say that the people of thie country had been
overfed? (Hear, hear.) And even if that import trade
The Hon. Member for
should increase to 3,000,000 a year for the next ten years,
it would not be en ever supply, taking into account
foreign corn wee only 225.,
the probable increase of the population.
Shrewsbury had spoken of the great quantity of corn imported from
various ports in America, but the increasing population of that
country and the great quantity of land out of cultivation, would have
the of
ouse that the increased con-
the effect of stopping that. The Hon. Member for Sunderland had
stated, that in the year 1837 he imported a quantity of wheat from
America, and after having paid all expenfses he was enabled to sell it
riee
and, therefore, he could well
_understandl how the Hon. Member
could sell his wheat at that price. —(Hear, ear, hear.) The experience
Canton at the
of all former years had lea to an increase
gumption of any article
at 255. ; but iii titatlyiaedarshtohwenP
f tee which ease of price. With
regard to the article ° ' ' able had been introduced
the other night by the Honotiart
t, Member for Shrewsbury,
he (sir G. Clerk) felt convinced tltr
thel e Hon. Member's arguments
preserit time, and compared it withttprice.i in the corresponding
month of 1844, he would find 80l o. had very much increased
in
) And then, with respect to the wade e cotton,
which were not sound, for if he looked at
the price of tea at
ducat by the same Hon.
which had. also been intro
f the duties Member, facts
went to show that the redactione es on that article had been
followed by increased imports, andst correspondinghd increase in price.
—(Hear, hear.) ' For his own par ,t
teh id not know where the
lion. Member (Mr Disraeli 4 go estatements which he
read to the House on Friday M., t last about cotton.—(Hear, hear,
and laughter.) If he looked at the price of cotton at New Orleans at
he would find that it was sold at 61,4 '
the present moment, cents, and
lower than 9 cents
in some instances not per lb.—(Cheers and
have b
laughter.) There might certainlyi i
ii been a case where, from a
stagnation in trade, or some sedt
har cause, gotten had been
mention,
sold at the low Price as fhethe Honourable Member,
but that should not ba ci
"te"
seasons, and
price at which
cotton was sold at almost all • ns, and in every year.—
(Hear, hear.) By the inventions of a certain gentleman in
America (whose inventions were somewhat shullar to those
of Arkwrlght in England) cottont
fifty certainly be sold at a much
lower rate than formerly. Aboudrears *go a petition was pre-
sented to that House, by farmers r ig in the neighburhood or
London, who stated that if turnpikes were introduced into the
northern parts of England, corn andother agricultural produce would
be brought at so cheap a rate to London,. that their trade or interest
would be completely ruined.—(lleer, hear, and laughter.) They also
stated that labour was touch cheaper per in the northern parts of
England, that it would be impossibl jo
. compete with the northern
agriculturists. In the year 14 ! when Mr. Pitt proposed
to repeal the laws restricting the importation of Irish corn, the
greatest alarm took place. Members representing the western parts
of Scotland stated That if such a measure were passed, the agricul-
ture of Scotland Wo u 1 d be ruined. 3lernbers also representing dif-
ferent parts of Ireland protested against the passing of such a mea-
sure. But what was the fact ? om
Fr -- Year to year since that
period the agriculture of Scotlandhat had been continually prospering,
and he would venture to say in no part of the three kingdoms
was agriculture in so prosperous a state its it was in Scotland at the
present moment—(Hear, hear)—and yet the metivre when proposed
in 1787 created almost as much alarm as did the present measure of
her Majesty's afinisters.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The House
would bear in mind that in the year 1820 a petition was presented to
that House by all the principal merchants in London, praying the
Rouse to remove all reetrlctious from the commerce of the country.

Lord Liverpool, who was then in ofilce and at the head of the Go-
vernment, acted upon those recommendations and did introduce a
great number of measures which had for their object the removal ofpro-
bitions on the importation of linen and other articles. Great alarm was
occasioned by the proposal. Several Irish Members protested against
the measure, on the ground that the linen manufacturers and all in
their employ would be completely ruined ; and the Hon. Member for
Lancashire at that time no doubt spoke to the same effect. But the
fact was, that at the present time the linen manufacture was in a
prosperous state. The Hod. Member for Shrewsbury had for-
gotten that powerful speech which had been made by his friend the
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government—
(Lead cheering) when he made his /statements. (Hear,
hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet had shown
that the linen manufactures of Ireland, particularly in the
neighbourhood of Belfast, were in a most prosperous state.—(Hear,
hear.) He showed that from year to year, since the measures of Lord
Liverpool, the linen interest of Ireland had been continually im-
proving, and the result was that they were now able to compete—the
manufacturers of Ireland were able to compete with those of France
and Britain.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Birmingham
had stated that the zinc trade had materially suffered by reason of
the reduction of prohibiting duty on that article, but he (sir George
Clerk) should confess that he was astonished at the statement, and
could not imagine how he made out his case.—(Hear, hear.) The
price of zinc at one period was 751. per ton, and the duty 451. per
ton. Now it should be admitted that zinc was au article of recent
origin, but since the duty was removed the trade in that article had
vastly increased. Therefore, by the reduction of the duty on that
article alone, a new manufacture sprung up, and em-
ployment was given to additional hundreds of the la-
bourers of the country; whereas, had the prohibitory duty been
contiimed, those persons must have remained without employment.—
, (Hear, bear ) In the years 1843 and 1844, the quantity of zinc ins-
ported was 7,000 tons, half of which was again exported to India
and China, and in the last year the quantity imported was 12,000
tons, not more than 2,000 tons of which had been exported. Xow,
could there be a clearer proof given of the value of the article, inde-
pendent of the vast benefit it afforded to the numerous operatives and
labourers engaged about it ? —(heer, hear.) New, as regarded the
silk manufactures, he could say that they had more than doubled
since the duty was taken off them. In the month of Fetruary, 1842,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the reduction of the duty
on raw silk, when objection was taken to the immediate introdue-
tien of the measure ; but as regarded the feeling of the House, it was
unaninlius on the matter, and the question was carried
on the 7th if March in the same year. Honourable Item-
hers will find that the most successful method of
increasing their revenue is by removing high prohibitory duties.
That opinion is fortified by the experience of the last twelve years.
We have been removing duties upon French goods, as well as the
goods of ether countries. He would mention a few articles upon
which the duty had been wholly or in part taken off—
French silks, gloyes, flax, and cambric, clover-seed, and linseed.
]'he Honourable Baronet then went on to state that he was
as anxious as any Member of that House that the landed aris-
tocracy should maintain their proud position, but if that existence
depends upon the corn-laws, he really trembled for it.—(Laughter.)
If he understood rightly the arguments of the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury, he seemed to maintain that the preponderance of pro-
tection should be given to the landed proprietors of this country, in
order to maintain landed interest. The Hon. Baronet, whose speech
throughout was almost inaudible in the gallery, concluded by saying
that the agricultural party would best consult their interest and the
interest of their constituents by censen.ing to a speedy settlement of
this question, which cannot long be protracted, and which may now be
settled under very different circumstances than these which will not fall
to accompany it if delayed to a longer period, and considered that these
measures, if passed, would tend to consolidate the interest of the
country, and place its institutions upon a firmer foundation.

Mr. 3IUN TZ rose to explain. He stated that he never expressed
an opinion in opposition to the reduction of the duty on speller. He
used upwards of 1,500 tons of zinc in his own business, and he could
not, therefore, consider it anything but a boon thus to reduce the
duty.
Mr. LII?DEL stated that the Hon. Baronet who had just sat down
had made one of the boldest assertions which it had ever been his lot
to hear from any one who sat upon the benches along with the Hon.
Baronet.—(hear, hear.) At the beginning of his speech, the Hon.
Baronet startled the House by stating that there had been no change
in the policy of her Majesty's Ministers.—(" Hear, hear," from
the protectionists.) Why, then, did they go before the
country in the year 1841 ?—(Hear, hear.) Why did they protest be-
fore their constituents against the change proposed by the Noble
Lord the Member for the city of London?—(Bear, hear.) What
were the three articles upon which the Noble Lord proposed to
make that change—that change which is admitted to be a more
judicious one than the measure at present proposed. If no change had
taken place, why, he would ask once more, is the Noble Lord and
his friends upon the Opposition benches ?—(" Hear, hear," from Col.
Sibthorp.) Why is the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland (Lord
Lincoln), again before his constituency, and to all appearance likely
to be rejected by them? Why have many Noble Lords and Hon.
Gentlemen resigned their seats, acknowledging their responsibilities
to their constituency ? Ile must say that he hid never heard any-
thing more startling than the assertion that the measure now pro-
posed by the Government was a natural consequence of the
measures and principles which they had adopted for the last few
years.— (Hear, and laughter.) Then there was another propo-
sition in the Right Hon. Baronet's speech, namely, that we should
be called upon to give a reason for opposing this measure. These rea-
sons are already provided for us; we have only to look at the opinions
of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government
to find our limits to justify us iu our opposition.—(Hear, hear.) On the
contrary, the converse ought to have been the case. We have a right
to call upon Hon. Members of the Cabinet for reasons why they
should alter their past policy—to inform us of the means
by which they had been induced to alter their course of policy, and
adopt that which they now recommended. The Hon. Member then
went on to state that if no important changes should take place in
the price of bread, what becomes of the argument which is so con-
stantly used to excite the public against us ?—(Hear, hear.) Telling
the populace what bold impiety it is to make dear the price
of bread which God Almighty has given to the poor. What
becomes of this argument, if the expectations held out
with reference to those important changes should not be realised ?
(Hear, hear.) lie would now drop any further reference to the
speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, who had just sat down, and he
would now allude to the statement made by the Right Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) In that speech there
were some fallacies awl some inaccuracies, which, with the per-
mission of the House, he would allude to.— (Hear, hear.) That
speech might be very properly divided into three heads—the first
part contained a statement of the direct causes which had led to the
recent change of opinion on the part of the Government. The
second part entered into an explanation of the course which the
Government intended to adopt, to meet the state of things which
led to that change of opinion. The third part enumerated various

facts and instances of the success which had attended the relax-
ation of prohibitory duties, and which circumstance was an en-
couragement to the Right Hoiourable Baronet to proceed still
further in that course of policy.—(Hear.) The first part of the
speech had been so ably treated by different Members on that side of
the House since the debate commenced, that it was altogether antic-
cessary for him to allude to it.—(llsar, hear.) The Hon. Member
for Devonshire had proved that the causes alleged for such an.altera-
tion were inadequate, and the remedies proposed were insufficient.—

_ .
(Hear, hear.) He would not, therefore, detain the House with any
observations on that point. He did not hesitate to say, that with
regard to the silk trade, there had been an over-amount er excess
of legislative protection. He considered, however, that when the
Right Hon. Baronet proposed to adhere to a protective duty of 151.
per cent. ad valorem, on silk, lace, and other articles of manufac-
ture, he did not see why he felt called upon to abandon the principle
in reference to corn. The Right Hon: Baronet proposed to reduce
the duty on foreign timber from 255. to 155., with a view, no doubt,
to afford a better supply to the consumer. Now, with regard to the
dimished cost of timber, it was fair to take into calculation the trade
of the past year, when partly from the late judicious revision of those
duties, a depression had taken place in the price, and the advan-
tage of this reduction went into the pocket of the consumer.
If the interests of the British public were thus involved, the NU-
' tieners expressed their concern that the greater part, if not all, of
I the increased importation from the Baltic would fall into the hands of
the foreign shipowner, and the foreign producer would receive all the
benefit. That point brought him to the utter incapacity of the Bri-
tish shipowner to compete with the foreigner. And what was the
reason? Ile would call the attention of the House to the
comparative expense of building a British ship in the
Baltic. He took the facts from the evidence taken before
the Committee on British shipping appointed the year before last,
and which showed the relative cost of navigating a British and a foreign
ship on a three months' voyage. The wages for working a British ship
for three months amounted to 1691. 10s., and 'the wages era Prussian
ship for the same period and of the same tonnage, was rather more
than 811., being a difference of rather more than 88/. in favour of the
Prussian ship. With regard to the cost of previsions—the cost of
victualling a British ship for a three months' voyage was 96/., and
the cost under the same head for a Prussian ship was only 391..
being a difference of 561. iu favour of the Prussian ship, or 140 per
cent. in favour of the Prussians. So much for the costs of navigation
and victualling. But he would now call their attention to the ques-
tion of ship-building, and he would ask whether those who looked to
the British shipowners fur the carriage of articles could quarrel with
the high rate of freight. They agreed to that addition of prices,
because their own safety was secured by it, and, in the words'of
Adam Smith, he would say, " of all the restrictive policy in the his-
tory of this country, I am compelled to say that the navi-
gation-laws are the most justifiable as national security
is preferable to commercial produce." In the port of London the
wages of shipwrights have not varied for the last 25 years, and that
curious fact was caused by the combination existing between the
carpenters and the shipwrights. At Toulon the shipwright's wages,
as stated in the official reports from the French Government,
amounted to a franc and a half per day, and in our dockyards at the
present moment the shipwright's wages were 4s. 6d. per day. The
foreign ships could be built for 5/. or 61. per ton, and such ships were
superior to the vessels built at Sunderland for 101. per ton.
A first-rate British ship, built in the Thames at a cost of 161. per
ton, when quite ready for sailing, would cost 211. per ton. After
this statement, he would ask the House whether the protection to
the British shipowner could enable them to compete with the
shipping from the Northern ports? Could it be possible for them to
contend against such advantages unless they brought down the
wages of the British shipbuilder to the miserable level of the
Continental shipowners ?—(Cheers from the Ministerial side.)
They were asked by the Right Honourable Baronet
whether they were to advance or to retreat. They might
make a step in advance if they reduced the wages of the labourer,
but they would deteriorate the condition of the nation, and he
thought that such a step would be a retrogade movement, and no
advancement. But to pursue the subject with regard to foreign
timber. What were the returns of the British and foreign trade from
1842 to 1844 ? The total amount of British tonnage entered inwards
from Norway and Sweden was 109,382 tons, and the foreign
timber entered in the same period (the year 1842) amounted
to 241,533 tons. In the year 1844 the foreign tonnage
advanced considerably in amount, as did also the British. In that
year the British tonnage advanced to 150,000 tons, and the foreign
timber to 520,000 tons, so that in the two years the British ship-
ping engaged in the foreign trade increased by 20,000 tons, or 19 per
cent. on the whole, while the foreign shipping in the same period
increased to the extent of 187,189 tons, or 54 per cent. on the first
amount of 350,000 tons. The result of this would be, that British
shipowners would be driven away by this unequal competition, and
the trade in the Baltic timber would fall into the hands of the fe-
, reigner. This was the argument of the shipowner, who was not
desirous of raising prices but of lowering them. The Right Hon.
Baronet had made one or two errors in his statement. He had said
that it would not be believed that at that moment there was not one
ton of Baltic timber ir. the port of Liverpool fit for building
a first-rate twelve years' ship, so they would see
the estimation in which the Baltic timber was held.
So much for that part of the question relating to timber, and the
prayer of the petition of the shipowners that had been laid upon the
table. Intimately connected with this question was that of the
colonial trade. On this point he would detain the house for a few
minutes, He would begin with the case of South Australia, and he
would call the attention of the Right lion. Baronet to a notice which
had appeared respecting the state of this colony in the public prints
a few days ago. It referred to a petition last year by an
Honourable Member .1' that House, teaching the question of
a free importation of Australian corn. It was asked as a boon,
but it was opposed by the Right Honourable Baronet on the
oceasidn, and he (Mr. Liddei) after the arguments which the Right
Hon. Baronet had laid down respecting the Canadas, could not con-
ceive how he could oppose placing Australia on a similar footing.
The statement in question represented the progress of the colony
during the last five years, including 1840 and 1845, and it showed
the number of acres in cultivation in the different -years. In 1840
the number of acres under cultivation was only 2,503 ; but in four years
after it was 6,696. 1843 was the year in which the greatest increase
of cultivation took place, arising from the demand for produce, and
the high price which it bore in the market. It was remarked that
in those years when prices were low, comparatively little land was
brought under cultivation, in fact, in some instances it decreased, while
an increase of price brought with it an increase in cultivation. If,
as expected by the measure of the Government, according to the
same rule which had been found to operate in Australia, prices fell
in Great Britain, then land must go out of cultivation.—(Loud cries
of " Hear, hear.") He could hardly conceive how prices could be
maintained, if they imported five et' six millions of quarters
and if Australia could not import corn to this country when there
was a duty of ss. on it, how was it to be expected that the wheat of
that colony could find a market in this country when there was tree
importation admitted from every other nation. What also became
of the argument used in support of the Canadian Corn Bill which
was brought forward as a boon, because they could not import corn
into this country under a duty of ss. ? They would be obliged, under
the measure now proposed, to resort to the United States for a mar-
ket. Now, with regard to the general question he was extremely
anxious to learn the opinions of her Majesty's Goverment on one
point—what was the real opinion of the Government on the pro-
bable consequences of their measure? On this point he (Mr. Liddell)
was as yet unsatisfied ; and perhaps during the progress of the pre-
sent debate, or at some future stage, the Right Honourable
Wouldonourabie
Baronet, or some other member of the Government,
favour the House with some calculation of the general amount
of price that might be expected under a free trade in corn.
His opinion was, that if they discouraged the home grown produce,
and trusted to foreign countries for the supply of their markets, al-
though a fruitful season would maintain an extension of prices ; yet,
in a bad season—in non-productive years, and with, perhaps a rup-
ture with foreign powers, he believed that the cora trade would ex-
hibit a dangerous fluctuation in price. That was the grand point in
which the public were concerned, and it was in order to
maintain this steadiness in supply and price, that they advocated the
principle of protection. He was also ashamed now to acknowledge
that he had opposed the measure of 1842, for as circumstances went,
he was now inclined in favour of it.—(Cheers and laughter from the
Liberal benches.) Me congratulated the Right Hon. Baronet on the
accession of the Hon. Member for Finsbury to the ranks of lilt
supporters, and however he might regret the loss sustained in the
Hon. and Gallant Member for Westminster (Captain Reus), lie was
fully repaid in the support of the Hon. Member for Finsbury.—
(Cheers and laughter.) He admitted that the new law of settlement
would be not only a great boon to the agricultural interest, but to
humanity. He had often seen with the most heartfelt pity miserable
beings—men, wives, and families, wandering in the public highways
of the country, without a place to lay their heads, and unable to go
to their parishes, not knowing where they could find a settlement,
with nothing in the shape of peounhuy relief before them, seeking a
miserable pittance from the hand of charity, and if they reached
their own country—say Scotland, or Ireland—perhaps literally
starving. He trusted, therefore, that no consideration would cause
him to lay aside this measure, for he had no hesitation in sesing that
by so doing he would confer a lasting benefit on the country. It would
be unnecessary Dar him to trouble the House longer. He had entices
voured to set before the House the true postlion in which they stood,
antt the claim., the agriculturists hed to protection. lie did not

• pretend to' say that after the declaration made by the Right Hon.
Baronet, and by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell), the
corn-laws in their present shape could be maintained, but so long as
he sat in that Rouse—so long as he had the honour of representing
his constituency—so long would his voice be heard in flavour of a
modified protection.
Mr...HUTT said that two days ago he had thehonour of presenting
several petitions from shipowners on the Wear and the Tees, in which
they refuted the fallacies advanced by the Hon. Member who had
last spoken relative to the interests of British as opposed to foreign
slapping. The Hon. Member wished to uphold the Interests of
British shipowners by maintaining high duties in timber.—(Hear.)
Could anything be more absurd than thus to place an interdict on
the materials of ship-building? The principle Was scouted by
all the intelligent shipowners of the north of England.
The only market at present opened to them was the Baltic, but he
would not follow the Hon. Gentleman through all his detailed argu-
ments on this subject. Ile expected that after the petitions
presented by the Honourable Member he would on some
future day bring the whole of this question before the House.
He thought that if Hon. Gentlemen opposite were so dissatis-
fied with the Right Hon. Baronet, they ought to adopt the mein-
mendation of his Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, and bring
the Right Hon. Gentleman's conduct before the House in a motion of
want of confidence. What was the worst charge tkat they could
bring against the Right Hon. Gentleman ? It was only that
he had been unwilling to be an instrument In their hands.
They had supported him in his tariff and Corn Bill of
1842, and now, when they came to the best and 1, isest tariff of all,
they suddenly stopped. lie thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had
greater reason to complain of them. It had been asserted by Hen.
Gentlemen opposite, that If the measures of the Right lion. Gentle-
man were adopted by this country, foreigners would give us their
corn, but they would take nothing but our gold in return. This had
b3en represented as a most alarming state of things ;-and that we
should be giving employment to the labourers of the Continent,
while the people of the Continent would give no employ-
ment to us. Now, he was prepared to say that foreigners
would not require us to give them gold in exchange
for corn. Even if they did so he believed that it
Would be advantageous to us. Look to our trade with China. We
curried our dollars to Canton. and we took the Chinese silks and
teas in return, and did Hon. Gentlemen mean to say that our Chi-
nese trade had not been a most advantageous one to this country ?
He denied that the repeal of the corn-laws would have any effect
on the precious metals, and concluded by declaring that their aboli-
tion would not only improve the condition of the country, but prevent
what seine Honourable Gentlemen so much feared, an undue impor-
tation of bullion.
Captain HARRIS said, in the month of June last, they divided
a united majerity of 254 against 125 against the repeal of
the corn-laws, and on that occasion they heard nothing from any
Member of the present Government to Indicate so great a change in
the corn-laws as now proposed, since they heard something from
the Hon. Secretary at War, while he was in Wiltshire; but he
attached no importance to what fell from him on that occasion, and
certainly did not think that they were to take that as a notice of the
proposed change. He would be glad to see any measure
introduced which would relieve the population of Ireland,
and particularly the lower classes. He would ask the non
Gentlemen opposite, whether it was not the wish of every
Member at his side of the House, be he Whig, Tory, er Radical,
to relieve the distress at present existing in Ireland ? The Govern-
ment have, much to their credit, taken measures to relieve the dis-
tress now so prevalent in that country , by ordering in great importa-
tion: of. flour, but that precaution should have been taken sonic
months ago. lie would ask the Government, was it a sufficient argu-
ment to use for the purpose of removing these laws ? Can such tem-
porary distress be adduced for one moment in support of the present
measure? And the question naturally arises, to Whom were the pre-
sent
state of things doe ? and the answer was, to the Right Hon.
Baronet at the bead of her Majesty's Government. He had never

entertained any doubt of Lis sincerity, and of his patriotism, and he
did not ask him to change his opinions to meet the views of his side
of the House, but lie asked him to do so as a Minister of the British
Parliament. On the details of that question he was well aware lie
could not advance any new proposition on the subject, for he had
heard it eloquently debated in that House, and every argument used
for and against the measure that great talent could command, and
he (Captain Harris) would only bewilder himself by entering at any
length into details. (Here the gallant meinber read a statistical account
of the trade with Russia, which went to prove, that if it were not
altered, there would be a serious derangement in the currency. The
Gallant Captain continued, and said that he frequently heard it
stated that freo trade gave great development to the commercial
classes, but he did not intend to state any objections on that point,
although, if they looked to the manufactures of France and the ex-
ports and imports of this country, he thought the measure would
strike the House as one of great injustice in its details.—(llear.)
He pledged himself to protection principles when he was returned to
that House by his constituents, and he had not heard anything to
make him change the opinions which he then expressed with the
utmost sincerity.—(Hear, hear )
Mr. MONCKTON MILNES observed that the present was the
second occasion on which he had witnessed the great subject of the
corn-law come before that House, and as it had been his ob-
ject during all the discussions which had taken place
to give the party who sat opposite the credit, of acting
from the best motives, ho would not act differently on that occasion,
but he would believe the party with whom he had acted for so
many years were likewise influenced by the purest motives.
—(Cries of " Hear, bear.") lie did not consider that statesmen
were to be judged very harshly for modifying their opinions on the
subject of the corn-laws, for they would find that Mr. Ricardo him-
self, one of the great apostles of free trade, recommended a fixed
duty of ten shillings ; and he believed that if the Honourable
Member for Shrewsbury told them his candid opinions, he would
be found to have experienced some slight change at the very least.
It was not for him to say whether a statesman of the experience
and ability of the Right Hon. Baronet was conducting the affairs of
the country in such a manner as was best calculated to confer a
benefit by doing away with what was called monopoly, but he
could not but regard the proposed measure as presenting but very
insufficient reasons for a deviation from his former opinions.—
(Hoar, hear.) He (Mr. Milnes) did consider that the ques-
tions of the Irish Church and the repeal of the corn-laws,
were the two great questions upon which depended the fate of the pre-
sent Ministry. He had always entertained this opinion, and he felt
it now so deeply, that he could not see how he could change it.
_ _

He could not understand why a man should sacrifice his conscientious
opinions, in order to support a Government upon a particular mea-
sure. lie, for one, would not do so ; and he should say, that if ever
an opportunity offered when the Hon. Baronet might have done good
by a different policy, and had thrcwn it away, the present was that
opportunity.; at a time when, under Providence, he had the greatest
and grandest opportunities of doing great practical good for the country.
He believed that the present Government had done more to reconcile
differences between hostile parties than any Government which had
preceded it. He also believed that they had accomplished many
great acts which Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House per-
haps desired, but had not tile means to accomplish.—(Hear,
hear.) He now saw those means of confidence which had been
hitherto afforded to the Right Hon. Baronet by Hon Members on his
side of the House utterly lost, and their power utterly destroyed.—
( Hear, heat.) He could not say that he gave the Right lion. Baro-
net his support cordially and freely. He did it simply because it
was the only course which he could conscientiously pursue. Ile
would go back to the year 1841. lie then represented to his consti-
tuents that he would do all in his power to place the Bight
Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Government, for the
purpose of enabling him to effect a settlement of the corn-laws.
At that time there were provincial Chancellors of the Exchequer,
and he (Mr. M lines) brought before the Right Hon. Baronet a proposal
for changing the duty on corn, which was considerably simpler and
lower than that which the Right Baronet then proposed, and therefore,
however much he might regret separating from his friends on this
question, he felt bound to give it his support. Hon. 'Gentlemen on
his side the House had asserted that their party was broken up by
the conduct of the Right Hon. Baronet; but the array of talent
and unanimity which they had manifested showed that that
assertion was without foundation Ho could not give
his assent to the doctrines of the agriculturists. Ile had eve'
regarded the con-laws as of mere accidental and temporary opera-
tion. He had never seen anything else in it, but as the mere means—
perhaps the useful means—of educating the agriculturist of this
country so as to enable him to compete with the foreigner.—(Hcar,
hear.) And when he saw at that moment that that end was so far
accomplished—when he looked at what he might call the chemical
agricultural changes which had lately developed themselves, seeing
the increased improvement with respect to tile draining, and all those
other ad vantages which had so rapidly developed themselves, he did
feel that it was but just to say, that the corn-laws should be changed.
Ile had always been anxious to modify the present system, but he
could never disabuse himself of the idea that a total repeal of the
corn-laws would he attended with a great displacement of pro-
perty. But, nevertheless, he could pursue no other course of con-
duct, in reference to the measure, than that which he had ever ob-
served. The produce of America had been alluded to by several
Hon. Geutle.nen, but corn might be flourishing in the valley of the
Mississippi and the people of England not be able to procure it. It
these changes should take place suddenly, he had no doubt but
great suffering would be occasioned. The difference in price in com-
petition between the English and foreign fanner should be distri-
buted somewhere, between the landlord, the tenant, and the la-
bourer. It was contended that a large proportion would fall upon the
labourer, but he did not believe that such would be the fact.—(Hear.)
The worst that could happen would be that the labourer would be
left where he now was.—(Hear, hear.) Ile had somehow or other
imbibed the notion that there was far more equality on the subject
of wages between the labourers of England and those of the
Continent, than is generally supposed.—(Hear, hear.) There
was something in the question, of which political economy could
hardly take account. Wages depend in a great measure upon
the physical capabilities of the labourer. He had heard that gentle-
men employed upon the continental railways were ready to give half
as much again to the English labourer as to the French, provided
they will not get drunk.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Compare the
Frenchman, with his nightcap en, and stopping every five mi.
nutes to speak —compare such conduct with the hard, steady work
of the English labourer. We need not fear competition in this
respect. The labourers would not be the immediate sufferers in this
case. He considered that the labourers derived advantage
from their contiguity to the large manufacturing districts.—
(Hear, hear.) They tended to raise the price of labour, not only
in their own neighbourhood, but also throughout the whole country.
The tenant-farmers, he believed, would come worst off by the pro-
~
posed alterations. At present they were, by the consolidation farms
and other causes, subjected to a great many evils, and these would be
aggravated by tie repeal of the laws relative to agricultural protection.
Ile believed that the land was not at present let at its
due value, for if it were higher, he considered that the
consequence of the abolition of protection would be
more seriously felt. The landlords would, in the language
of the Right Hon. Baronet be exposed to the temptation of becoming
mere manufacturers of food.—(Hear, hear.) That was a point on
which he could not change, or his mind acquire additional experi-
once. The landlords were exposed to a very great temptation which
he believed they would overcome ; but to which they ought
not to have been exposed. He believed they would resist that
temptation. They would consent to make some sacrifice of power and
convenience rather than lay the burden on those who were dependent
upon them. To do that, to overcome that temporary difficulty, they
must exchange their present splendid benevolence for another and a
more useful class, and must consent to employ more protective means.
Their wealth was considerable. The proof of that was, that a great
portion of it was spent in amusement and accomplishemoenttenli,
they were ready to make the sacrifice that was demmdasdsoefialttions
all would go well. It was possible that rna,nyreaiiy
civil ad vantages in their possess,.
might be interfered with. Let
nthaendlaiiitlitlohednon;
• 'lllll their prosperous condition,
atlTetyainmigtil'iet
lose something, they would shortly
and permanence, or
the
ed
fluctuatinge
mainthefergtrueanets boufltwasrkgrseonftleetmileptti.e,e.ace
K BANKS IN SCOTLAND AND IRELAND.
Oyotit,7,irn-otTion of Lord INGESTRE, the debate was adjourned.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER obtained leave to bring
in a Bill for the regulation of Joint-Stock Banks in Scotland and
Ireland. _ _ _ _ _

The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House
adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

COURT CIRCULAR.

The Queen will hold a Privy Council to-morrow (Wednesday), at
Buckingham Palace. The Council Is appointed at three o'clock in
the afternoon.

Her Majesty and Prince Albert took their accustomed early walk
yesterday, in the royal gardens.

His Royal Highness Prince Albert, attended by Colonel Bowles
and Colonel Wylde, visited Captain Siborne's Waterloo Models, at
the Egyptian Hall, yesterday. The visit was quite private, the
models having been closed to the public on Saturday. Ills Royal
Highness expressed much pleasure in examining those historical
works, and examined them minutely.
Their Royal Highnesses the Princess Royal and the Princess Alice
Pala were taken airings yesterday, .in the royal
gardens of Buckingham
ce.

The Queen and Prince Albert honoured the performance of the
French plays with their presence yesterday evening. The Royal
suite consisted of the Tiscountess Canning, Hon. Miss Stanley, Earl
of Warwick, Colonel Arbuthnot, and Colonel Wylde. Her Roy-al
Highness the Duchess of Kent, attended by Lady Fanny Howard and
Sit' George Cooper, Bart., also honoured the performance with their
presence.

His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, attended by Major
Stephens, presided yesterday-evening at the German Hospital dinner.
Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Kent visited her Royal High-
ness the Duchess of Gloucester yesterday, at Gloucester House.
Summonses were issued yesterday morning to the Cabinet Minis.
ters to attend a Council, at half-past two o'clock, at the Foreign-
office. The Ministers who assembled were Sir Robert Peel, the, Duke
of Wellington, the Lord Chancellor, the Duke of Buceleueh, the Earl
of lladdington, the Earl of Aberdeen, Sir 4,1115il Graham, Mr. Sec.-re.
tary Gladstone, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Ee..11 Of Ellen-
borough, the Earl of Ripon, Lord Granville SonieTset, the Earl of
Dalhousie, the Right Mon. Sidney Herbert, and the Earl St. Germans.
The Council sat two hours,
•
Mr. Murphy, the Mexican 1114Lsier, transacted business yesterday
at the Foreign-office,
Mr. Cunard 444 an interview with the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer yesterday at his official residence in Downing-street.
Dispatches from the Governor of Hong-Kong were received yes-
terday at the Colonial-office..
Viscount Jocelyn had an interview with Sir Robert Peel yesterday.

The French Plays were last evening most brilliantly
attended on the occasion of the debut of Mona. Felix. There were
present the Queen and Prince Albert, attended by Viscountess Can-
ning, the Honourable Miss Stanley, the Earl of Warwick, Colonel
Arbuthnot, and Colonel Wylde; her Royal Highness the Duchess of
Kent, attended by Lady Fanny Howard and Sir George Cowper ;
her Royal highness the Duchess of Cambridge, attended by the
11"aroWl Ahlefeldt and Mr. St. John Mildmay; the Marchioness of
Ailesbury, the French Ambassador, Lord Mallon, the Baroness
llrunnow, the Austrian Ambassador and the Countess Dietrichstein,
the Earl and Countess Bruce, Lady snot the Misses Burgoyne,
Honourable Mrs. Leicester Stanhope, and Lady Shelley, Lady
Jodrell, Baron Koller, Count Ktelmausegge, Sir Henry Webb, Sir J,
U. Lowther, the Honourable Janie% Macdonald. &c.,

S U N

11'14'
11,7-111°
4-4
THE VICTORY 1N
\l-0
OFFICIAL DISPATCH •\,

"GAZETTE EXTRA ORDINARIP " 41411:

B F. 23, 1846.
A dispatch, from which \t
heIA follOAßDowing is anEB
extract, has
been this day received at the East India House :
FROM THE GOVERNOR-GENERAL OF INDIA TO THE SEGRE 7
COMMITTEE OF THE EAST INDIA COMPANY, DATED CAMP,
FEROZEPORE, DEC. 31, 1845.
(Extract.)
The Seikh army, in large numbers, commenced crossing
the Sutlej on the 11th, and, after investing Ferozepore on
one side, took up an entrenched position at the village of
Ferozeshah, about ten miles in advance of Ferezepore, and
about the same distance from the village of Moodkee.
In this camp the enemy had placed 108 pieces of cannon,
some of large calibre, with a force exceeding 50,000 men,
for the purpose of intercepting the approach of the British
force moving up from Umballa, to the relief ef Ferozepore,
which had been thus treacherously attacked, without pro-
vocation or declaration of hostilities.
I had ordered, on the Bth instant, that portion of our army
posted at Umballa for defensive purposes, to move up on
the 11th ; and, after a rapid march of 150 miles, it reached
Moodkee on the 18th, where, on the evening of the same
day, it repulsed an attack of the Seikh army, and captured
17 guns. On the followins, day the army was concentrated
at Moodkee, and, on the 2rst, moved by its left on Feroze-
pore ; and having on the march formed its junction at half-
past one o'clock with 5,000 men and 21 guns, under Major-
General Sir John Littler, which had moved from Ferozepore
that morning, the Commander-in-Chief the army in order
of battle, and attacked the enemy's entrenched camp, and on
that evening and the following morning, captured seventy
pieces of artillery, taking possession of the enemy's camp, wits
large quantities of ammunition and warlike stores.
These successful and energetic operations have been fol-
lowed by the retreat of the Seikh army to the other side of
the Sutlej ; the British army being now encamped between'
Ferozepore and the fords of the Sutlej.
You will not fail to observe that these important and bril-
liant successes have been achieved by that portion ofeur army
posted at and in advance of Umballa for defensive purposes,
and that our forces from Meerut and other stations from the
rear, ordered to move up at the same time, are in reserve, and
will reach this neighbourhood between the sth and the 9th
of January.
I have the honour to inclose two reports from the Com-
mander-in-Chief, detailing the admirable manner in which
importantceu
withrt duties
ehfe Directors
liriehacjatere
e-srteybe,esfent performedheEast ; and
Government,
Ind iNavi
Company,llh lam i con-
vincedghl 2 pi
concurrenceth ese
t i e
pinr-ecciiadteef, tahnedembyintehnet
nseffirse-eicra.es
nrnenn.dneermedmibzietnheedCeoffimemeras,iidaenrd-
soldiers of the Indian army.
The Commander-in-Chief has successfully accomplished
every object I had directed him to 'effect for the relief of
Ferozepore, and the protection of these British States. No ac-
cident or failure has occurred during the complicated opera-
tions of a combined movement ; and our army, whether
for defence or attack, has shown, as heretofore, that its power
is irresistible.
FROM GENERAL SIR HUGH GOUGH, BART., 5.C.8., THE COM-
MANDER-IN-CHIEF OF THE ARMY IN INDIA, TO THE
GOVERNOR GENERAL OF INDIA.
Head-quarters, Army of the Sutlej,
Camp, Moodkee, Dec. 19, 1845.
Right Hon. Sir,—lt would be a superfluous form in me to
address to you a narrative of the campaign which has opened
against the Seikhs, and the successful action of yesterday,
since you have in person shared the fatigues and dangers of
our army, and witnessed its efforts and privations, but that
my position at its head renders this my duty ; and it is
necessary, from that position, I should place these events en
record, for the information of all Europe as well as of all
India.

You, Sir, know, but others have to be told, that the sudden
and unprovoked aggression of the Seikhs, by crossing the
Sutlej with the great proportion of their army, with the
avowed intention of attacking Ferozepore in time of profound
peace, rendered indispensable, on our side, a series of difficult
combinations for the protection of our frontier station, so
unjustifiably and so unexpectedly menaced.
From the advanced and salient situation of Ferozepore,
and its vicinity to the Seikh capital, its defence against a
sudden attack became a difficult operation. It was always
possible for the Seikh Government to throw a formidable
force upon it before one sufficientiy numerous could on
our side be collected to support it : but when, upon the 11th
instant, it became known at Umballa, where I had esta-
blished my head-quarters, that this invasion had actually
taken place, the efforts to repel it followed each other in
quick succession;* notwithstanding I had the fullest con-
fidence in Major General Sir John Littler, commanding at
Ferozepore, and in the devotedness and gallantry of the
troops occupying it.
The troops from the different stations in the Sirhind
division were directed to move by forced marches upon
Busseean, where, by a most judicious arrangement, you had
directed supplies to be collected, within a wonderfully short
space of time. _

The main portion of the force at Loodiana was with-
drawn, and a garrison thrown into the little fortress there.
From this central position, already alluded to, both Loodi-
ana and Ferozepore could be supported, and the safety of
both places might be considered to be brought, in some mea-
sure, within the scope of the contingencies of a general
action to be fought for their relief. All this is soon related ;
but most harassing have been the marches of the troops in
completing this concentration. When their march had been
further prolonged to this place, they had moved over a dis-
tance of upwards of 150 miles in six days, along roads of
heavy sand; their perpetual labour allowing them scarcely
time to cook their food, even when they received it, and
hardly an hour for repose, before they were called upon for
renewed exertion.

When our leading corps reached Wudnee, a small jaghir»
of the late Maharaja Shere Singh, its garrison shut the
gates of the fort against them ; and, as our battering guns
were far in the rear, it was determined to reserve it for future
chastisement, and we remained content with compelling the
village to furnish supplies (it could, however, provide little,
except for our overworked cattle), under pain of enduring a
cannonade and assault ; this it did without the necessity of
firing s shot.

When we reached Wudnee, it was evident that the force
before Ferozepore felt the influence of our movements, as we
heard that a very large portion of that force had been de-
ached to oppose our further advance ; their feeling parties
retired on the morning of the 18th before our cavalry picquets,
near the village and fort of Moodkee.
Soon after mid-day, the division under Major-General Sir
Barry Smith, a brigade of that under Major-General Sir J.
M'Caskill, and another of that under Major-General Gilbert,
with five troops of horse artillery, and two light field bat-
teries, ander Lieutenant-Colonel Brooke, of the Horse Artil-
lery (brigadier in command of the artillery force), and the
cavalry division, consisting of her Majesty's 3d Light Dra-
loons, the body guard, 4th and sth Light Cavalry, and 9th
rregular Cavalry, took up their encamping ground in front
of Moodkee.

The troops were in a state of great exhaustion, principally
from the want of water, which was not procurable on the
road, when, about three P.N., information was received that
the Seikh army was advancing ; and the troops had scarcely
time to get under arms, and more to their positions, when,
the fact v.as ascertained.

I immediately pushed forward the horse artillery and
cavalry, directing,the infantry, accompanied by the kid bat-
teries, to move forward in support. We had not proceeded
beyound two miles when we found the enemy in position.
They were said to consist of from 15,000 to 20,000 infantry,
about the same force of cavalry, and forty guns. They evi-
dently had either just taken up their position, or were ad.
vancing in order of battle against us.
To resist their attack, and to cover the formation of the
infantry, I advanced the cavalry under Brigadiers White,
Gough, and Mactier, rapidly to the front, in columns of
squadrons, and occupied the plain. They were speedily for-
lowed by the five troops of horse artillery, under Brigadier
Brooke, who took up a forward position, having the cavalry
then on his flanks.
The country is a dead flat, covered at short intervals with
a low, but, in some places, thick, jhow jungle, and dotted
with sandy hillocks. The enemy screened their infantry
and artillery behind this jungle, and such undulations as
the ground afforded; and, whilst our twelve battalions
formed from echellon of brigades into line, opened avey se-
vere cannnonade upon our advancing troops, which
as soon joined by t e wo light
vßirgigoraodusierlyßrreopolkieel to
whichby the
w battery of horse artillery under
field batteries. The rapid and well-directed fire of our
asv lit oulvaasdvnaenceing the artillery too near to the
,bungle, I
artillery appeareessdasuo,ontotocopmarpalleytsee
othuartizodfaitllatreyendeimspyo's;itaionnds,
directed the cavalry under Brigadiers White and Gough to
make a flank movement on the enemy's left, with a view of
threatening and turning that flank, if possible. With praiup.
woi thy gallantly, the 3d Light Dragoons, with the 2d brigade
of cavalry, consisting of the body (ruard and sth, Light
Cavalry, with a portion of the 4th 'Lancers, turned the
left of the Seikh army, and, sweeping along the whole
rear of its infantry and guns, silenced for a time the latter.
and put their numerous cavalry to Right. Whilst this ma ment was taking place on the enemy s left, I directed the re-
mainder of the 4th Lancers; the 9th Irregular Cavalry, under
Brigadier Mactier, with a light field battery, to threaten their
right. This manoeuvre was also successful. Had sot the:
infantry and guns of the enemy been screened by the jungle,.
these brilliant charges of the cavalry would have been pro.
ductive of greater effect.
When the infantry advanced to the attack, Brigadier
Brooke rapidly pushed on his horse artillery close to the
jungle, and the cannonade was resumed on both sides. The
infantry, under Major •Generals Sir Harry Swith, Gilbert,
and Sir John M'Caskill, attacked in echellon of lines the
enemy's infantry, almost invisible anaontest wood and the ap-
proaching darkness of night. The opposition of the enemy
was such as might have been expeeted from troops who had
everything at stake, and who tart long vaunted of being irre—
sistible. Their ample any' xtended line, from their great
superiority of numbzes, fare outflanked ours ; but this was
counteracted by the flank movements of our cavalry. The
attack of the infantry now commenced; and the roll of fire
from this powerful arm soon convinced the Seikh army that
they had met with a foe they little expected ; and their whole
force was driven from position after position with great.
slaughter, and the loss of 17 pieces of artillery, some of them,
of heavy calibre; our infantry, using that never-failing wee!.
pon, the bayonet, whenever the enemy stood. Night manly
saved them from worse disaster, for this stout conWxt was
maintained during an hour and a half of dim starliroint, amidst
a cloud of dust from the sandy plain, which yet more ob-
scured every object.
I regret to say, this gallant and antenatal attack was of-
tended with considerable loss; Ile force bivouacked on the
field for some hours,
and Only 'returned to its encampmentafter ascertaining that it no enemy
before it, an that
night prevented the possibility of a regular advance In pur-
suit,

I beg to cngratulate you, Right Honourable Sir, on this
c
first defeatour invaders by the army I have the honour to
Command. The perseverance by which success was attained
you personally witnessed; and the troops, I am sure, felt
exposedprotid ofi
theiim sself-devotion .
danger
hger which
amongsttheir Gtohveem. rn orpebnefeorreal
advance
the
n
a:
said that our loss has been severe: it could not be esteemed
small if we had no other to record, when I mention that, to-
wards the conclusion of the affair, Major. General Sir Robert'
Sale, to whom India and England are so much indebted,
had his left thigh shattered by a grape shot, and
yßanoit h
Bolton of h i wound has since proved mortal. Sir John M'Caskill, an 01d.
and valued officer, who has done his country much good servo
vice,
division,vice , receahn'edd o ball
immediatelythrough
phisi r
expired.
chest, on
Brigadiers
Mactier, and Lieutenant-Colonels Banbury and Byrne, and
other valuable officers, are amongst the wounded. These
losses our country and the service will deplore, but not con,
cider unavailing, when Ferozepore shall be rescued from ttse
invader, and the insult to our territory and rule fitly
punished. I have every reason to be proud of, and gratified with, theexertions of the whole of the officers and troops of this army
en this arduous occasion
of the generals of divisdiF:n'
tl2Lzisit
:130,ande general, personal withdivisions, the brigadiersthe
conduct
o f tredsedviesposral
arms,,,
brigade stag and ti`,4

* ►Sie in orig.