The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-18 00:00:00

• STEAM COMMUNICATION WITH
AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND.
A meeting was held yesterday at the London Tavern, at 12
o'clock, to hear the statement of Lieutenant Waghorn re-
Ptieeting the advantages of the overland communication with
dia, and. thence by that route to Australia and New Zea-
land. Snort's- after the hour specified Mr. Waghorn began
13. Y observing that twenty five years of his life had been c di-
gAently employed in effecting steam communication with India.
-"t Present a great part of the object was effected. He had,
ltherefore confined himself to the remainder of the route, and
I'c'Posed to go by Singapore to Australia. The distance
tween these two points was 4,450 miles, and the way which
be advocated was from Singapore to a port in Java,
ith,enee to Port Essenden, in Batavia, thence to Wednesday
.fr-taildep in Australia, and thence to Port Jackson ;
~.'"us dividing these 4,450 miles into four stages,
'Government,
yesterday had an interview with a member of the
who had stated that this route, and this alone,
-would be approved of by them. By this route they believed
'''h
• that the communication would be effected, and the further
jest would be served of establfshing a steam navy in
Australia.
.Letters were then read from the Liverpool and Manchester
Chambers of Commerce, and from an eminent house in Leeds,
l
th_ aPsiroving of the design, and giving answers within
"inetY-sier hours of the dispatch of the inquiries.
On the motion e 1 Mr. WAGuon.N, Sir GEORGE LARPENT
was called to Ow:, chair who, after thanking the meeting
tor the honour done him, stated that the object of this
!!ieeting was to -establish a branch on the great trunk steam
line to Chine. and the remote east. With the benefits of
stearn& na'Agation all were acquainted, and it was needless,
ere
; ,_ re, to attempt to enter upon them, but this much he
- raTut observe, that in a great commercial empire like this,
steaen communication was the great bond by which it was to
be tied together i firm unity and that, in fact, it might
be said to be essential to its security. His own correspond-
"lee with Australia quite justified the belief that the scheme
But „Ivould be eminently beneficial to both portions of the emp
to
-nut the question was how were the expenses
ment
he met ? It appeared, then, that the
' Were ready to approve of the plan which MGr.oWa horn
had devised, and it might, therefore, be antticipraetuesclugut,hhaet
Some assistance from that quarter might,wl h
energetic expected; but yet it must be met by the
co-
operation of those around him and of the other merchants
lef. Great Britain. With this remark, he would call_ upon
Mr. Scott, the agent of Australia, to move the first re-
solution.—(Cheers.)
Alt. Scorr, in moving the first resolution, which was
approving of Mr. Waghorn's plan, alluded to the anxiety
universally felt on the arrival of the ne ;vs from India; and
After referring to the superior benefits of peace over the
glorious triumphs of war, he would not hesitate to
assert, _that the boundless plains of Australia would be
productive of far greater wealth than the mines of i
Mexico and Peru. lie believed that the difference
between the value of the trade with foreign countries and
that with the colonies was but little known, and he would,
therefore, taks the opportunity of contrasting the value of
these several trades now carried on with countries coin-
Prising one-fo-urth of the population of the glebe, a popula-
tion indeed not less than 160,000,000. He found then
Iteussia took 6d. a head of our goods and manufactures, the
countless millions of Russia took Bd. a head, France Is. Bd.
a -head, the united States of Germy 3. 10d., ndhe
ishilted States of America now took ban Bd.s a head,a
but the
should observe that before the United States ceased to be a
colo"ny of this country it took 1!. a head. But what was the
ea- with the colonies? Why Canada takes 1!. 1.55.
head, the West Indies takes 2!. 17s. 6d.
11' 'head, and at one time New South Wales took
I.ol'. it head, though now it had declined to 71. 10s. ; and the
*bole' average of the consumption of the colonies was
14a. 6d. a head, and he found that this country abso-
_,lately furnished, on an average, as much as Is. a head to
erYinhabitatit of the globe. rn 1840, the Australian Co-
unties took a 5 much as 2,630,0001. worth of the produce and
©iantefietures- of this country, while from all the world beside
hey took only 385,000/. among a population of 1,300,000.
ran leverage Of the last five years, the number of ships
, Wards Was 605, with a tonnage of 141,000, and of those
_eea red outward was 138,000, though during the last year
c 4 se numbers had declined respectively to 417 ships in-
,tatdti, , %tith a tonnage of 87,000, and 569 ships outwards,
& tonnage of 109.000. On an average of the last
Ole Anap.oeee „bad, beereso9s.ooo/., although last
' r
Vie' -Vltirlinet& to 931,0094 ,The exports, during the
4 " 440'1,158,000c but last year 1,128,000!., efif
.. --eteili, olytning:One way or the other, to upwards of
.1,..3.77 !,O rellyeettials. During the year 1844, no less than
, t . !IlliliT of wool had been imported into this country
41413nes and if be might trespass still further, he would ob-
til:that'avithin the fifteen years in which this colony had
=43o)tight twits present importance, the stock had risen
• 110'w:lbre, 0 ewes and one ram to flocks consisting in the
I....lregs(te'a 6,000,000 sheep; and from two cows and one
istielventl leen 'heertrdis of upwards of 1,200,G00 head of cattle. It had
lned that the southern provinces of Australia were
in eve
and tolY
baeeo way
fitted for the growth of the orange, the mulberry,
a
adaped for rice, cotton, and other products of tropical and
otf rn -tropical countries. By the establishment of this means
nu:2 an
more the benefits would be conferred oa larger
More populous countries than any other. He had made
an te remarks because he believed that the value of Australia
Was very insufficiently known, and with this remark he
'Would move the resolution.
Mr. MARK Bolen in seconding the resolution moved by
his lion. Friend, Mr. Scott, said he must congratulate Mr.
Waghorn on the large and influential meeting which they
had, and when he recollected that it was only a few days
ago, that a near relative of his own, prevented by indisposi-
tion from being now present, in conjunction with his friend
biz.. Samuel Browning and himself, consulted Mr. Waghorn
on the importaut subject for which they had met, be felt
:satisfied that whatever Mr. Waghorn undertook he would see
carried through; and that the great object would be achieved
for which they bad assembled, viz., a steam communication
With the colony of Australia, yid India. For some time past
in-consequence of the urgent entreaties of friends in Austra-
lia, this most important subject had occupied the serious
attention of the agent for Australia (Mr. Scott), and Mr.
Browning, a gentleman intimately acquainted with Australia
and her coasts, as well as the different islands in the Indian
Archipelago. We well knew from experience that Mr. Scott
Would urge the claim of Australia for this great commercial
boon with the Government, with his usual energy and atten-
tion, but it appeared to us that the initiative must be taken
in the City, and that Government would wait for this: our
eye was immediately directed to that man, who
having brought Bombay within twenty-six days and
eight hours of London, might likewise bring Sydney,
New South Wales, within fifty-six days and eight hours
of the British Metropolis. Mr. Waghorn was of all men
the man to be consulted; he to whom all classes, com-
mercial and otherwise, were under so heavy a debt of grati-
tude. "Palmam qui mei-ail ferat." Some people had, in
reference to a steam communication with Australia, mooted
the idea of the route by Panama; my humble opinion differed
front theirs, coincii ling entirely with my friend Mr. Phelps
Robinson, the Mem her for Melbourn, who so ably brought the
subject before the Legislative Council of New South Wales in
September last, when he moved an address to the Queen,
praying "Her Majesty would be graciously pleased to extend
to the colony the benefit of the arrangements under which
malls are dispatched by steam communication to India and
China on the same terms as other British colonies." By a
reference to Mr. Ri 'binson's statement, the route from Point
de Galle and Singripore to Sidney North and South, about
are. distinctly show n. Mr. Waghorn, without any previous
knowledge of Mr. F tobinson's views, had come to the same
conclusion. "Why, Gentlemen," he said, " the road is now
opened to you by that great and successful company the
Peninsular and Oriental. Take your departure from Port de
Galle or Singapore--the latter if you follow my advice; but
do not tell me th it via South America, with an increase
of 'distance of two thousand miles, and no places to
coal at, is the shortest way to Australia." I hope
ere =shall be enabled to enlist the sympathies of the
Earl of St. Germinas, Colonel blaberlev, Mr. Lawrence, and
Mrd Campbell, the high authorities at the Post Office ; for
they may be assured tnat whenever a steamalc4ro6wm7iiBubnliecuantiionn_
with Australia is established, the number of letters and news-
PaPerssunder the ieresent postal arrangements, "ail be vastly
increased. Ido nit wish to detaine the meeting by entering
into statistics; butt, with their
give an
extract from Mr. Robinson's retuns,rmw7i7elohn,
teresting :—ln 1844, roc eived from LondeT
105;087 newspapers •; from Liverpool 2.182 letters lt7srlsB
nevtepapere; total letters received,
. 68,500; totalnewsa'ners re.
ceiased, 106,105. Sent to London, in 184 4 , 6 68, 2,
26022
newspapers;letters, .9 1,2
newspapers; to Liverponl, 2,890 letters,
total letters sent, 68,6.4 ; total newspapers sent, 95,134. Re-
ceird from Calcutta, Bombay, and Madras, 2,855 letters; 651
newspapers. Sent to Calcutta, Bombay, Madras, ems Ceylon,
2,491 letters; 3,779 ,newspapers. To attempt to define a limit
to €he advantages which the introduction of steam would
afford Australia isi impossible, but there can be no question
as to the following. It would facilitate the investment of
capital for the'gradual development of the boundless resources
of Australia and New Zealand. It would establish much
greater confidence in all mercantile transactions connected
as-Witt:se colony by preventing loss from overstocked markets,
and- also obviatri the inconvenience arising from the scarcity
of supplies of Ertropean merchandise. It would enable the
itnerchantk and shippers in the colony to duly effect insurance
of their ships and merchandise in England. It would enable
East India invalids either to settle or recruit their health
in that most congenial climate, the distance to Swan
River only occupying 14 days, to Sydney 30. It would lead
to a large emigration of a highly respectable class of capi-
talists, with their wives and families, who are at present de-
terred undertaking the voyage from its tediousness. A steam
communication would therefore be of incalculable advantage
to the colony, both morally and politically. It would greatly
facilitate the pacification of New Zealand, by affording the
rneans of promptly introducing the requisite precautionary
measures in case of need. It would likewise produce the
same effect as in Australia, by eneouragiug the introduction
of wealthy settlers, and the consequent employment of the
native population. It, would be of the utmost advantage by
affording facilities for the further extension of the present
Pacific trade carried on from our Australian colonies, and the
civilisation of the inhabitants of the islands in the Pacific
ocean. It would enable us promptly to anticipate and frus-
trate any attempts of foreign aggression, either upon our
aettlements or trade in those seas. It would accelerate the
introduction of numerous necessary reforms in the local go-
vernments of the Australian colony, and permit public
pitmeen in England to exert its salutary influence on the acts
ofsuffering the most grievous wrongs to which they are at pre-
sent constantly subjected. In conclusion, by the establish-
ment of an Australian setneadme, communication, the entire link
between Great Britainee
With
II the colonies will be complete,
as well as those ecloni
Merach other respectively.
After a few words from
elf!-vderson,
line -which would make the Isle. in favour of a
m Mr.
Byarance the point of rest,
and other observations fro
itself to the particular route by
to the meeting pledging Ls Smith, who objected
Singapore,
The CisalastaX stated, that as aerate exceedingly desirable
, o?btain it, avoided the
to have unanimity- he had, in oras
specialty of the motion, and it w
the establish-
effect, that this meeting highly therefore, altered to the
with
went of steam communicellon with Australolf
- d that aOn the the moot
of Mr. Whit, it was resolase
mittee slnsald be appointed tok, take measures for establishing
the lie, and and such s.Ssistance as the Government might be
ressay. to render. ,
'Me motion having been carried,
Captain BARBEE said that, before movingno
Herr plan,
reeolu-
hich
was very
for, in
tion, he wished to observe that this
g,
NI.
1836, he had himself called a meetin
merously attended, at which meeting a committee adrybneetn-
formed. Nor had they been idle, for they had made a report
to a subsequent meeting, and he would, therefore,
that some such plan as was then adopted should
nsuogsr tsite
followed.
Aftersome conversation, on the suggestion of the Chairman
the movers and..seconders of the resolutions were then ap.
Pointed .a
committee, with power to take evidence, and to
report at some subsequent meeting what, in their opinion,
was the best route to Australia.
~,. Thanks were then moved to Mr. Waghorn, for calling the
2,'"oee.tilli3`, •and for his energy and courage in opening the
and toe. India. Thanks were also voted to the Chairman,
Use meeting broke
~.,

PUNISHMENT.—The paragraph with
.this
by whic denteared in The Suu yesterday, WU written}
1 COrreSPOI

1 IMPERI

that the House would analyse the mode in which this
Bsuamronewtashadto be ex
brought fended.i
noie BTahletoßeingchot Honourable
uragedrnin.
age ; and had that Bill been introduced last autumn,
it might have been attended with considerable benefit.
He was not going to say that that Bill might not be use-
ful in some small degree, but he was very much afraid
that the Right Hon. Baronet would find it altogether in-
applicable to meet this distressing crisis. The Right
Hon. Baronet enumerated among his measures, that
which granted certain loans, for the improvement of land
under the order of the Board of Public Works.
The Right Honourable Baronet also alluded to some
great undertakings for promoting the improvement of
navigation in Ireland. He (Mr. S. O'Brien) had heard
of no such works being yet commenced. The Right
Hon. Baronet had, however, informed them that 20,0001.,
a part of the greater sum of 400,000, had oeen laid aside
for this purpose. The Right Hon. Baronet also stated
that the County Presentments Act would bring into cir-
culation an expenditure of 100,0001. Now he' (Mr.
O'Brien) could inform the Right Hon. Baronet
that, with only one or two exceptions, the grand
juries had decided that this measure was altogether
inapp:ieable to meet the present distressing crisis.
That Act would go, not to the benefit of the labouring
elasses, but to people who did not require assistance.
Another of these measures was the Fisheries Act. He
thought that it was a very good Act, and hoped it would
be successful, but so far as be had observed during his
residence in Ireland, it had not come into
operation, nor was there any appearance of it.
There remained only another Act for him to speak of,
and that was the Public 'Works (Ireland) Bill. It would
be a very useful Act if the Government would only
facilitate its operation. Public meetings had been held
In many parts of Ireland to promote and expedite the
operation of this Bill. The amount sanctioned to be
expended by the provisions of the Bill was
50,000/., and that would just give ls. per head to a mil-
lion of people, and thus it seemed that in the course of a
few months a million of individuals would require the
assistance it was intended to give. A very large number
of applications had already been made to Government for
employment under the provisions of the Bill. He confessed
that with reference to those provisions, they seemed most
desirable in their nature, but he thought that it was the
duty cf the Government to bring to the aid of the local
exertions made on this emergency the funds derived
from general contribution and from the grant of the
state. The consequence of such a proceeding would be,
that the people, instead of applying for public
and indiscriminate charity, would be employed, and the
works undertaken to give them employment would be
such as would be useful in themselves. He asked the
Right Hon. Gentleman to state to the House what he
knew with respect to the applications that had been made
for employment on those works, for which 53,000/. had
been granted. He (Mr. Smith O'Brien) believed that
the applications already made would warrant the expen-
diture of 500,000/. He could not refrain from expressing
his regret that Government should think it necessary to
couple the question of Ireland with the question of the
corn-laws. An attempt had been made to give
that country cheap food by opening the ports ;
but other documents independent of that were required.
He was one of those who differed from the great majo-
rity of the Hon. Members on his side of the House—he
meant a measure in reference to corn, which he had no
doubt would be of service to this country, but would for
many years be very injurious to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
If, indeed, the duty was to be taken off foreign oats, and
the article to be admitted into Ireland duty free, he
would support it, because the price of oats in Ireland
had risen to an enormous height. Well, then, again he
would say that still more unfair and ungenerous had
been the conduct of the Government to Hon. Members
on his side the House who differed from him, in coupling
this measure with the question of the Repeal of the
Union.—(Hear, hear.) Was it fair then to taunt Hon.
Members on this side the House with throwing impedi
ments in the way of the people of Ireland getting the
means of relief because they would not consent to a
measure which would be the greatest infliction that
country could suffer?—(Hear.) Wby, the Irish Members
had no remedy. If they had not adopted this course
they would lose all confidence of the Irish people, unless
they opposed the Bill in all its stages.—(Hear, hear.)
But he trusted they would be able to compel even Eng-
lish majorities—even an English House of Commons—
to understand at last that the arguments that Irish
Members used against this measure were so fraught
with justice, that that Bill could never pass the House.
—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had
spoken about alienating the feelings of the Irish people
from the Government of this country. He (Mr. S.
O'Brien) found that the feelings of the Irish people had,
by the conduct of the Government, been deeply,
perhaps irrevocably, alienated from this Parliament.
He regretted that the present Government had thought
it necessary to couple measures of coercion with those
which they had brought in for the removal of the evils
with which Ireland laboured. Yet such was the case.
What, then, he might ask, if the people of Ire-
land bad had a Legislature of their own ?
Would they have suffered those evils to continue
so long ? What would have been the course
pursued by an Irish Government ? An Irish Govern-
ment would have summoned an Irish Parliament to meet
early in November ; and would have suggested such
measures as would have anticipated the evil, and would
not have waited until the calamities had actually
occurred, till the last moment of relief ; and would have
taken such measures as would have effectually prevented
that mischief, for which sufficient provision could not
be made by the Government at present in power.
Neither would they have committed the error of
coupling measures of coercion with the measures for re-
lief, and would have used their utmost endeavours to
remove those evils by means within their command,
and would have found in their national resources
that guarantee of :meccas which would have availed
to restore confidence, and save one-half of the mischief
which now was inevitable. Under these circumstances,
whatever loss of life might occur from the scarcity of
food known to prevail, and whatever the mischiefs that
might arise from consequent collisions, for these and for
all the other evils that might arise, he should hold the
members of her Majesty's Government wholly and
solely responsible.—(Cheers.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that however anxious he was
to answer to the responsibility which the Hon. Gentle-
man had thrown upon him, he felt responsible to the
House to bring the adjourned debate to as early a con-
clusion as possible, and he should, therefore, confine
himself to answer a few of the questions which the Hon.
Gentleman had put. In doing so, he would in the
first place appeal to the House, and he might also
appeal to the Honourable Gentleman himself, whether
he had ever concealed his opinion from the information
which he had received of the extent of the calamities
under which Ireland was suffering, and of the proba-
bility that the pressure would increase rather than
diminish as the summer advanced. Still more might he
appeal to them whether he had ever endeavoured to con-
ceal the extent of the mischief, and whatever might be
the result, of this he felt assured, that the House and
the country would acquit them of any intentional
neglect, and would relieve the Government of all
responsibility for the present condition of Ireland.
At the same time, he was aware, from the unusual cha-
racter of the calamities, that it was no small matter for
the Government to be called upon to feed an entire
people. Those aware of what the functions of a
Government were might readily understand that
there existed no machinery for that purpose ; and
it was necessary to create a machinery to meet
the case. Some allowance, therefore, must be
made if the arrangements were not so complete as to be
able to meet every possible phase of the evil. He must,
however, say, in reference to the statement made by the
Hon. Member, with regard to persons who had died
from famine, that the Government had received no ac-
count of any deaths having occurred from this cause. He
did not rely upon the circumstance of the poor-houses
not being filled as any argument of absence of scarcity.
In neither of those cases referred to were the work-
houses full. The Hon. Gentleman, and those surround-
ing him, who recommended large gratuities to be given
to the Irish people, one and all said, that with respect
to the able-bodied the mode of relief should be by
wages. On this point, then, they were all agreed.
That was the legitimate mode of meeting the evil.
Then, as to what the Honourable Gentleman had
said with respect to the introduction of Indian corn into
Ireland, he (Sir James Graham) had already stated to
the House that the Government, on its own responsi-
bility, had departed from the accustomed practice—he
had almost said the legitimate course—and ordered a
large importation of Indian corn into Ireland, for the
relief of the people during the continuance of the disease
and famine engendered by the failure of the potato crop.
They did not, however, intend, neither did they consider
that that supply would meet all the demands of the Irish
people during this emergency. But at any rate its
introduction would prevent an undue increase in the
price of provisions ; for instance, meal was one-third
dearer this year than during more than three of the
preceding years, but they anticipated that the introduc-
tion of this corn would prevent people from withholding
food from the markets in order to get high prices and
regulate the supply of the necessaries of life in
the different markets of Ireland. It was, how-
ever, difficult to regulate the supply of food, but the
Government would do their best to do so. They never
attempted to say that the quantity of Indian corn was
sufficient to meet the demands of the Irish people ; but
they said this,—that the supply, regulated by proper
officers, would prevent the rising of the prices of food.
iinpplies of corn, in addition to those supplied
which
was so
suspended by a Treasury
LthaergGeovernment, had been imported. into Ireland,
duty moderate price, now that the
sold as cheap as oatmeal.
order, and was in consequence . .
llidad at
beean
lion. Gentleman
agree-
able and nutritious food. Now,
thef
had justly observed, that cases o extreme..
midst of
It was found, as the Government anticipated, an
the Hon.
hear.) Now, he was sure
plenty.—(Hear, .
might be the
Gentleman would admit that whateverimpossible
accompanied with loss of life, existed in the
they could accomplish all theywished, if they
were
efforts of the Government, it was quite that
were alone to meet the emergency, instead .of
them—(Hear.) The lion. Gentleman . asked him what
distress prevail-
ingpersons of influence stepping forth generously and aiding
the Government had done to meet the
another, which was
this—What had the wealthy
in Ire'and, but be would meet his question by
landowners of Ireland done?—(Cheers.) The Govern-
ment had used their very utmost to meet the evil.—
(Hear.). Nearly a fortnight ago a gentleman (as we
understood) proceeded to Ireland to facilitate the dis-
tribution of the food which the Governmenthad provided.
The Hon. Gentleman had referred to the Grand Jury
Act; that was a measure to which the Government
offered to advance 100,000/. for the carrying out of sub-
stantial public works, this would have circulated a great
deal of money, and would have employed a great number
iof hands. It was left to the discretion of the Irish land-
lords. They have refused, and very generally so,
to avail themselves of it. He regretted that such was
the fact, as if it bad been adopted it would ban been the

means of conferring vast benefits upon the people.—
(Hear.) There was much truth in the observation of
the Honourable Gentleman, with respect to the Drainage
Act ; it might have been introduced earlier
there was no doubt, but it was
introduced when the emergency was found to be press-
ing. There was no truth in the assertion that
there had been no opportunity for advances of money
under that Act : he was happy to say that there
were many already ; and under the Public Works
Act from 30,0001. to 40,0001. had already been ex-
pended.—(Hear, hear.) Works undertaken under this
Act he had no doubt would add permanently to
the wealth and power of Ireland, and temporary distress
would be the means of advancing and securing her pros-
parity. He was therefore decidedly an advocate of the Pub -
lie Works Act, es a legitimate means of affording relief.
All the recommendations of the Commissioners on the
Public Works in Ireland were laid before the Govern-
ment, and they were then judged by their merits. The
Hon. Gentleman had said that an Irish Parliament, and
an Irish Government, would have acted in a different
spirit with regard to the distress in Ireland. He
(Sir J. Graham) really could not think that an Irish
Parliament would have acted in a spirit more frank,
more generous, or more just, than the British Parliament
towards Ireland under the present circumstances. He
relied on the feeling of that House ; he relied on the
feeling and generosity of the other House of Par-
liament for such measures as would relieve the
wants of the people of Ireland. He was sure
that any recommendations for public works would be met
in a proper spirit, such, indeed, as the emergency de-
manded. The Hen. Member in alluding to the landlords
of Ireland, toll the House that they employed as many
labourers on their estates as their fortunes would allow.
He considered that a system of parochial relief to the
able-bodied labourer would reduce him to the degrad-
ing position of a pauper—his spirit would be lowered
and the tone of society generally deteriorated
He did not consider that a proposition of that
nature should be entertained without consi-
derable caution. It has been proposed by another
Hon. Member to call en Irish Parliament as early as
possible for the purpose of considering these matters.
The Government were not responsible for not doing so.
—(Laughter and cheers.) He did not consider that the
great question of reform could any longer be postponed
with justice to Ireland; he thought that an immediate
settlement of the question was necessary to alleviate the
distress in Ireland. It was not possible to do so out of
the public funds. He did hope that they might now pro-
ceed with the first reading of the Irish Protection to Life
Bill. He did hope that after—he would not say the un-
necessary delay—that after the five nights' debate
which they had already had upon the subject, that
Irish Members would allow the first reading to take place,
and that they might proceed with the question which
now pressed for an immediate decision. He alluded to
wh( of Theoegahhr he didad us t notsa sat
con
the proposed measures for reducing the amount of duty
upon the importationtci
ihi ofßight
t ifso aorine:g nu thatacro
Baronet
nn
although
Mcu with
r.r
B.
lißo
the l
down as to the desirableness of proceeding with this
Bill, he would not detain the House at any great length
with a view of interrupting its progress. He did not be-
lieve that the Government intended doing much for
the substantial relief of the people of Ireland. I
was quite true that the Right Honourable Baronet had
uttered sentiments of commiseration and feeling for the
Irish people. The Right Hon. Baronet had also uttered
a strong rebuke to the landlords of Ireland for not
aiding the Government to the best of their power
in relieving the wants of the people. For those
sentiments, as far as they went, he (Mr. Roche) thanked
him ; but, at the same time, he should be better pleased
did he hear the Right Honourable Baronet coming
forward as the representative of the Executive Go-
vernment of this country, and saying that the Go-
vernment did indeed, in point of feet, intend
doing something substantial towards relieving the
calamities and distresses of the people, and that it
was their intention to provide ample means for supply.
ing the people of Ireland with food. He did not intend
to make any allusion to the question between his Hon.
Friend the Member for Limerick and the Right Hon.
Baronet, as to whether an English or an Irish Parlia-
ment would do most for the relief of the people of Ire-
land. He would also refrain from saying anything
about the vexata questio of the poor-laws, but this
he would say that the Government of this country, if
they took upon themselves the government of Ireland,
cught to do something more plausible than making plaus-
ible and feeling speeches—they ought to do something
more substantial for supplying the people of Ireland
with food. Now the Right Hon. Baronet had thrown
himself to a certain extent (if he might use the expres-
sion) upon the indulgence of the House with regard to
the difficulty which the Government felt in obtaining
and introducing into Ireland food for the people.
—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet
had told them that there was a great want of
machinery in the Government. His Honourable Friend
the Member for Limerick had alluded to the mode in
which the Indian wheat had been distributed by the offi-
cer of the Government in the city of Cork. Now, with-
out imputing to the Government any intention of aggra-
vating the distress of the people at the present
moment, he would, at the same time, tell them that the
effects of the acts of the Government, with regard to the
distribution of that corn, was to aggravate, in a very serious
degree, the distress of the people in the south of Ireland.
Now, what were the facts ?—and one fact was better
than a thousand arguments. The distress in Cork was
very great, and the gentlemen in that city assembled
and formed themselves into a relief committee, and
elected a secretary. At that time there was a depot
in Cork, containing a large supply of Indian
meal. An application was made to the secretary of the
Relief Committee in Dublin, stating the distress of the
people—distress which he (Mr. Roche) knew, from his
own knowledge, was not exaggerated—and calling
upon him to allow a distribution of the Indian
meal in depot at certain prices—in fact at
cost price. The secretary, after some deli-
beration, acceded to this request, and a considerable
quantity of meal was distributed among the poor of
Cork. So far, so good. But when the quantity which
they were allowed to distribute was expended they re-
newed their application to the Secretary in Dublin,
and their first letter was unanswered.—(Hear.)
On the second application, they received a letter,
which :his Hon. Friend had read to the House,
and which was written by the Dublin secretary. That
letter stated that in point of fact the Government had
changed their minds with regard to the distribution of
the meal, and that the people of Ireland were to be
thrown upon their own resources. The consequence of
this was, that an impression went abroad that not
only for the present, but for a long time afterwards, the
government were not prepared to do anything for re-
lieving the distresses of the people. Thus, they
created a very great discontent among the people
of Ireland, because they, in the first instance,
raised their hopes by holdin out to them, and in
part realising, that food would be afforded them
at reasonable prices, and afterwards they turned round
and said in effect we have food here, but you shall not
get more of it. That course, as he had said, created a
feeling of dissatislaction ; but it did even worse, for
the speculators in corn in Cork, and Liver-
pool, and other places, had the opportunity
of reading this letter, as well as those to whom it was
addressed, and they naturally enough said to themselves
this food is to be shut up for some months still ; and
they therefore raised the prices of Indian meal. Those
prices were raised in consequence of this letter which
had been received from Dublin.
Sir J. GRAHAM seemed to express dissent.
Mr. ROCHE—The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to
express dissent, but he (Mr. Roche) had a painful know-
ledge
of the fact, because he was then in treaty for the
purchase of a large amount of Indian meal
for his own people in Ireland, and he was aware that
it was much higher than it had been a fortnight ago.
He entreated the Right Honourable Baronet to consider
the dissatisfaction and discontent that this pitiful
mode of distributing relief in Ireland was cre-
ating among the poorer classes in that country.
It was impossible for any man to exaggerate the distress
and the want of food that existed in every district in
Ireland. He knew himself that in a district of the
county of Cork, which for years past had sup-
plied the whole of the country with food, at this
moment the people were actually consuming for pre-
sent use the only potatoes they had kept for
seed for the following year. He would wish to impress on
the Right Hon. Baronet the consideration, that if it were
possible for Government to give any supply of Indian
meal, there never was a time when it would be of so
much importance to the people, as it would allow them to
lay up something for the following year. He hoped he had
misunderstood the Right Honourable Baronet, or that
he had misinterpreted that part of his speech which
conveyed to his mind the impression that, in point of
fact, the supply of Indian corn in the country was a
experience went, the land-
lords in his part of the country—always excepting the
the
e that
Rgiht t wHooual do
ugriavbe
eh ißma
rgorneeatt,
dpoweraygoupinaegyc
aoe
nw,
da rhd butse
they found that it was almost an impossibility to obtain
food mere trifle—he could
commencedewaysenryineteen. He had
pasleafsaurrea.s
hlnisaninswdievridtZ
andnot mo-
mentagtivtheistnetnralieringthe absentees—were
computation, over
for them. He understood everything relating to
ph raadc
farmedtical farming.
1d distress tdreeisesgowf what
tei ns
surrounding
he had the management of from 3,000 to 4,000
en
4 since
o o farmedpeople.
He
0r
paid
qe
acres
tu
them,
mftoi
,rt quantities eb shu ot f land,ould
food, and every one knew that they could not eat the
acres. He employed, at a moderate
money. It was almost an absolute impossibility to obtain
food; in fact, the difficulty was so great, that as soon as
he could be free from an important duty which he had
to perform, and which he might perform in the course of
next week, and perhaps should on—(" Hear, hear,"
from the Opposition)—he go to Liverpool, n
order to obtain a supply of food for his own people.
He trusted, therefore, that the Government would im-
mediately turn their attention to the increase of the
store of Indian meal, for it was upon that alone that
a grew portion of the population depended for their
food, and the obtaining any other kind of food
Was quite out of the question. They would understand
this when he said that the best description of potatoes
cost one shilling per stone, and that ten-pence
was commonly given for them, which was altogether
under the mark. The regular price would be
threepence for the common sort, and fourpence and five-
pence for the best. He did not mean to say that the
people commonly obtained potatoes at that price, for
that price was merely nominal, and if he were to
go to a man who had 100 tons in his possession, his
answer most probably would be that ho did not know
whether he had sufficient for his own seed. And this
was the case with every portion of Ireland, and he
believed that if they were permitted to use
their seed potatoes, they would not have
three weeks' consumption remaining throughout the
country.—(Cheers.) He had made it his business to
inquire, from his own
neighbourhood
right up to the
mountainous districts, and what he had just asserted he

believed to be the plain fact, namely, that after the con-
sumption of the seed-potatoes then would not remain
three week's supply. He hoped the Government would
excuse him, for he did not mean to read them a lecture,
but he did sincerely trust that they would not lose a
moment in apply ing to America for a suffieitnt supply
of Indian meal. It would be better to do this now than
to wait until the eleventh hour, and leave the people of
Ireland the Fad alternative of lying down by the road-
side to perish, or of turning round upen the country
gentlemen, and taking possession of their property, and
committing other outrages of which they and the Go-
vernment would most bitterly repent. Ile was the more
anxious upon this point, as he saw no promise in the
Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, and he could not there-
fore refrain from remembering an old saying, that soft
words butter no parsnips. He trusted, however, that
the Government would take some such steps as those
which he had recommended.
Sir R. PEEL said he could assure the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down that her Majesty's Government
had very recently received the fullest confirmation of
the melancholy picture he had drawn of the distress in
Ireland, and he begged to remind the Hon. Gentlemen
that it was not more than a fortnight ago that tie
Government were endeavouring to defend themselves
from charges of exaggeration upon this subject. The
House should also remember that Government had been
devoting themselves earnestly to the introduction of
measures for the amelioration of this distress ; and with
a view to convincing the House that distress did exist,
they had ordered certain returns to be lai.l upon the
table ; and when that was done, it was stated to be all
exaggeration, while in fhet those returns had just been
confirmed by the Hon. Gentleman who had just come
over from that country.—(leare hear.) The charges
that the Government were attempting to mitigate that
distress, not by practical measures, but by fine speeches,
he would meet in this way. No doubt the Governmert
would be highly culpable to pursue such a course ; but
he did think they should get credit for endeavouring to
avoid such measures a) might perhaps aggravate instead
of mitigate those evils.—(Hear, hear.) If by the inter-
ference of the Government, any measures could be intro-
duced that would have a practical effect, he would admit
that no consideration of a pecuniary nature should weigh
for a moment with the Government.—(Hear, hear.) But
in such a matt r the interference of the Government
might have a very injurious effect. He could assure the
House that the utmost caution should be exercised b,-
the Government in dealing with such measures, lest by a
temporary mitigation of the distress, they might be lay-
ing the foundation for much greater misery hereafter.—
(Hear, hear.) Now, let him take the last observation of
the Hon. Gentleman. lie said, "fir God's sake,
send over to America for more Indian corn."
Let them take care that they did not interfere with
he natural and legitimate supply of this commodity and
the exertions of individuals. In the early part of No-
vember, when no steps were taken in reference to an
alteration in the corn law—when Indian meal was un-
known—many persons then questioned the authority of
the Government to interfere. The Government, how-
ever, sent out an order, seeing that there was a prohi-
bitory duty on the article, to bring in a very large
quantity of it ; but when Indian meal could be imported
at a ls. per quarter, it did not follow that the measure
which was wise and expedient in November last would
be wise now. The first effect which the pro-
ceeding would have would be to raise the price of Indian
meal, and the second would be embarrassment to the
merchant. He mentioned these things as a proof that
the Government were influenced, not by an indifference
to the necessities of the people, but by a sincere con-
viction that a compliance with the recommendations made
to them would do injury, and aggravate the existing evils.
At the present moment oatmeal was one-third higher in
price than during the last two or three years, so that by
introducing, Indian corn they were not driven to subsist
on a high priced, but on a generous and moderate priced
food, lie did trust that the introduction of this corn
would give the Irish people a taste for a higher descrip-
tion of food, and increased industry to obtain it, and, in
fact, lay the foundation of a better state of things in Ire-
land. By preventing the Irish labourer from placing entire
dependence on the prevalent Irish food—the watery po
tato—would conifer great and lasting good upon them.
—(Cheers.) If the Government had announced their in-
tention of entirely supporting the whole Irish people
during the prevalence of the distress now extant in Ire-
land, they would have done much mischief—more than
any step whatever—because they would thereby have in-
duced benevolent individuals to relax their exertions in
behalf of the poor.—(Hear, hear.) If the Government
were at once to relieve the Irish clergy of all denomina-
tions. Irish farmers, all above the labouring classes, who
now lent their aid to support the indigent, from the
moral obligations imposed upon them, they would
have insured all the evils of famine.—(Hear,
hear.) It was impossible the Government could
support four millions of people. The Hon. Gen-
tleman advised them to be more liberal, and to make a
declaration of their means in order to obtain a more ex-
tended support of the Government measures, and said
that many absentee landlords were not performing that
duty which resident landlords were performing. He
(Sir Robert Peel) thought it unfair to draw this distinc-
tion, because he knew many absentee landlords who
were very generous to the poor.—(Hear, hear.) But if
the Government were to express their intention to re-
lieve the wants of the whole of the suffering Irish peo-
ple, those who had heretofore relieved their wants would
have excused their moral obligations by saying that
the Government had unlimited means at their com-
mand, and might, by commissions of inquiry, have full
and accurate information with respect to their condition
—would thank the Government for relieving them of the
responsibility, and they would take proper measures to
alleviate their sufferings. This might occur. It would be
utterly impossible for them to relieve cases of individual
distress occurring in the wilds of Donegal or Mayo, and
therefore they must look to all proprietors, resident and
non-resident, for support ; and it was not on the
Government that the first responsibility rested.—
(Hear, hear.) It was only through their aid
they could hope to effect any good. It might be very
well for the lion. Gentleman to say that he held him
(Sir R. Peel) responsible for every death that occurred.
These were dangerous words; they ought not to be made
use of ; but they could not make the Government pri-
marily responsible ; it must rest with those who either are
or ought to be resident upon the spot, and upon those
especially who, by reason of their non- residence, ought
to he more liberal in their contributions. Not by any
means wishing to shrink from any responsibility which
might be attached to him either officially or individually,
he could not allow the responsibility to be attached to an
Executive Government which really had no means to
effect anything without their aid.—(Hear, hear.) And
if the statement was true that the people were eating
those potatoes which ought to be preserved for food, was
it not a sufficient vindication of the Government for
asking a permanent settlement of the corn question?
This was his answer to the speech of the Hon. Member
for Limerick. He had no wish whatever to say any-
thing with respect to the Corn Bill during the discussion
of this measure. lie wished the Corn and Coercion
Bills to be kept separate and distinct.--(Hear, hear.)
On whatever other points Hon. Measbers might differ
he thought that upon this they would be agreed,
viz. the necessity of doing something towards giving
permanent relief to the people of Ireland. There might
be differences of opinion entertained as to the efficacy
of the measures which the Government had introduced
for the relief of the people of Ireland. Ile could assure
the House that it was the wish of her Majesty's Govern-
ment to meet the wants of the people of Ireland. Day
after day and night after night they were occupied
with the subject of the present distress in Ireland,
and it was their earnest desire that the remedial
measures which they had introduced should not be
ineffectual.—(Hear, hear.) It had riot been a fear
of expense that had dissuaded the Government from
bringing forward such measures of relief as had been
alluded to by the Hon. Member for Limerick. The
fear under which the Government laboured was, that lest
their resources might not be sufficiently efficacious ;
he could assure the House that it was their anxious
wish to relieve, as much as in them lay, the distresses of
the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. E. B. ROCHE said that the Right Hon. Baronet had
misunderstood him, and had consequently misrepresented him
when quoting his language. He (Mr. Roche) had not called
upon the Government to come forward and support the people
of Ireland, nor had he asked them to take upon themselves the
entire responsibility of supporting the people of Ireland. The
Irish Members did not ask the Government to extend eleemosy-
nary assistance to the people of Ireland. What he had said was
this, that the Government had themselves come forward as the
feeders of the Irish people during their present calamitous dis-
tress, and that having done se they ought not to have stopped
halfway. The Government ought to tell the landlords of Ire-
land for certainty that in Liverpool, or some other places, they
could obtain food for the support of their fellow-countrymen.
Sir R. PEEL—That is just what I want to have. I want
foreign wheat at 4s. per quarter to mix with oats at about
Is. fid. per quarter.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE—That may do for another year.
Sir 11. PEEL—No; but for this year.
Mr. CALEB POWELL said that by the Right Hon.
Baronet's own showing the Government had in this instance, to
use a familiar phrase, " placed the cart before the horse."
They had introduced coercive when conciliatory measures were
absolutely necessary.—(Hear, hear.) Why did not the Go-
vernment press forward the Corn Bill, instead of introducing
this coercive measure ?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE was exceedingly glad to hear that
the Government intended to augment the funds that had been
raised for the relief of the Irish poor. 'llse only thing they
could do would be to improve the harbours, so as to find em-
ployment for the poor. A great deal could be done in this
manner. He hoped the report on the state of the harbours in
Ireland would be produced as early as possible, in order that
something might be done.
Mr. COLLETT wished to make a few remarks on the sub-
ject under consideration. It was in reference to the finding of
employment on the railways proposed to be constructed in Ire-
land. He did not refer to any of the railway Bills of the pre-
sent session, but to those passed last year, and especially to two, the Waterford and Limerick and Dundalk and Enniskillen rail-
ways.
These were two excellent lines, but the state of things
was such, the calls could not be got, and the works were in
consequence delayed. If they could get some assistance by the
advancement of money on loan, great relief would be afforded.
While he was desirous of doing everything he could to meet
the wants of the Irish people, he supported the Coercion Bill
as a measure necessarily required, but only of a temporary
character.
Mr. O'CONNELL would not have addressed the House
had not the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) referred to
the difference between hi, Hon. Friend (Mr. Smith O'Brien)
and him (Mr. O'Connell) on the subject of out-door relief.
Whatever opinion he had expressed respecting out-door relief,
it was quite clear that the present relief in the poor-houses in
Ireland was altogether inadequate.l37,ooo persons were all that
were relieved by the poor-houses at present, while there were
2,300,000 in a state of destitution.—( Hear, hear.) The
establishments for these 37,000 persons had cost 90,0001. This
would show the inadequacy of the system of relief. Still, though
he thought nothing could be more ruinous to Ireland than
, a system of out-door relief, if the Right Hon. lyrpnet
thought proper to propose it, in the present state of. Ireland
he (Mr. O'Connell) was willing to sacrifice hisoaprini}ont andhad
support it.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Non. lo,e
also referred to the failure of the drainage sjstem in Ireland,
but that was not attributable to the plans of the Government,
but to other causes. He must say the Government had
shown every disposition to relieve the condition of Ireland,

I and that the course they had taken had been fully vindicated
r that night; still he thought they had not done enough. The
dist- e s was overwhelming ,disturbances had broken out, and
might extend so as to render all their future precautions una-
vailing. They had a fearful period before them; and notwith-
s'anding what they had done, they would do well to put in
operation the Board of Works, and also to consider whether
it would not be well to appoint a Commissioner to inquire into
the resident landlords, and the absentees, with the object of
rating them iii order i o meet the present crisis, care being
taken to discriminate between the two classes of landlords.
Their duty would not be performed unless they did everything
in their power to counteract the alarming state of things; and
in doing so, they ought not to despond, as a feeling of that
kind going abroad was calculated to do great injury.—(Hear. )
Mr. M'CARTHY gave the Government credit for an
anxious desire to relieve the wants of Ireland, still he had to
complain of the way in which the commissary at Cork had
given out relief. He had only supplied Indian corn for a day,
and had refused further supplies, or to send it into the interior.
lie wool 1 ask the Right Hon. Baronet if he was aware that
Indian meal, when ground, was liable to fermentation andcon-
sequent loss? lie would also press the Right Hon. Baronet
for information as to the instructions the commissary at Cork
was acting under in withholding the supplies. He was of
opinion that the Government should allow Indian corn to be
sold at the cost price.
Colonel VERNER. said that the scarcity described to
prevail in the south of Ireland did rot exist in that portion of
the country in which he had lately been. At the last assizes
of the county of Down the grand jury dii not consider it neces-
sary to enforce the provisions of the present Bill, the state of
the county not requiring it. He had been in the county of
Fermanagh for five weeks, and he had never heard of any
scarcity—in fact it was remarked that never since the war was
there such a good time for the paying of rents.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN wished to explain He denied
that in opposing the Coercion Bill he was delaying the measures
then (.1 e IBaya
i.loany, Its i
lot ha
cithe
I.lt,
ol inndi setreert so,o
dnotwhat
attv ilt,loi lai
,iimi
d.
for the relief of the people of Ireland. The responsibility of
compelledthoaadupalnwoarst•sthcoon,tieenstdietodteth, aat
nt,iliethat abTohott, Rightiooal
a landlordsgeno
general
otualxd
on
property
was necessary and proper for that purpose.
Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said he
rose to call the attention
of the Government to document •
a which had been
to him, and transmitted
which referred to a point that had not been touched
upon. The Hon. Gentleman had read the document
question, which was to the effect that it would not be possibilne
to supply Indian corn meal fast enough to the people, from
deficiency of mill-power in that part of the country. It
s'tat'esal
that Sir R. P. el had caused to be purchased 100,00 N. worth
of Indian corn at the rate of a penny a pound, which made
24,000,0001b5. All that had been imported into Cork was
11,000,0001b5., of which a very small quantity had been dis-
tributed, the commissary refusing to supply any more at
present. In addition to this quantity it was said the only stock
at present in England was 45,000 quarters. To give 4.000,000
of people a pound of meal each, 14,825 barrels would be re-
quired. He ( Mr. J. ('Connell) would not pledge himself as
to the truth of this statement, but he had received it from a
person who knew a good deal of the county of Cork, and con-
siderably acquainted with the state of the country. He
(Mr. J. O'Connell) would say a few words on the general
subject. The question was one of great difficulty, and
great allowance should be made on bath sides. —( Cries of
" Hear, hear.") He gave the Government full credit
for an anxious and earnest desire to do the best they
could in the present crisis ; and though the present discussion
had been deprecated, he thought it would be useful, as it would
show the House was not inattentive to the necessities of the
case; and that if the Government withheld definite information,
it was because they thought such a course would impede useful
operations. He was sorry to hear the Right Hon. Baronet
say that the introduction of Indian corn would give the people
of Ireland a taste for better food. No good would arise if the
taste was only given to them for a moment ; the only way to
give them a better taste was to provide them with better means.
It was poverty that inevitably drove them to inferior food ;
give them better means of purchasing food, and they would soon
have a taste for it. He had just another remark to make.
With respect to what had been said about the importance of
the resident landlords in meeting the evils of Ireland, he saw in
that a strong argument bearing in favour of a local Parliament.
Mr. FITZGERALD said that from the accounts received
that day, disturbances had taken place in Tipperary, ( lonmel,
and several other towns in Ireland, in which the people had
risen and helped themselves out of the bakers' shops. The
state of things was so dreadful that the military had been called
out, as well as the police employed to suppress the disturbances.
He would ask, had the agents of the Government acted
according to instructions in refusing to send food
into the interior, so as, by granting a supply, to prevent
the occasion of the people resorting to such illegal means.
Feeding that political agitation contributed to agrarian out-
rage, he was anxious to remove all causes or excuse for it. He
was anxious to restrict political agitation to all causes which
had nothing to do with personal interests.—( Hear.) It was
impossible for a people accustomed to combine against the
oppression from oligarchical communities, accustomed to resist
the power of authority which in their eyes was backed enly by
selfish motives. Was it necessary for him to describe the
present
condition of Ireland ? They lived in a state of feverish
, and unhealthful excitement, and the consequence was that the
, people could not resist the temptation to oppose the claims for
even legitimate authority. He for one would not be content
to rest upon vague promises. Would they give equal rights
with themselves ? Would the Right lion. Baronet consumato
the Emancipation Act? Would he legislate for that extremity
which was fast impending and not wait until that extremity
arose ? Would he remove that cause of differenee which was
exhibited in the portion of the Anglican Church in Ireland ?
That was the base of their national disseverence and of poli-
tical subservience. Why was it that no Member of the Catholic
faith was not possessed of a place in the Cabinet? Was it
not true that to be associated with them was a signal for
his expulsion from the body to which be properly belonged ?
But it was the business of him who was in possession of power
to abridge this struggle. The sectarian policy it was that
deprived the Government of the national confidence, but if
they would ameliorate their political and religious
wrongs, they would confederate with them, and act
in concert in the repression of outrage and the stop-
page of agrarian imposition. If they would not, how-
ever, then the Government must expect that the Trill people
would refrain from any such concert, and they would not only
not refrain, although by the doing so they might not prevent,
but be the cause of the increase of crime. Then as to the Bill
itself, he had great objections. He thought that the punish-
ment of transportation was too great for the offence met by
this Bill—an evil which he conceived might be justly met by a
longer or shorter period of imprisonment. And, further, as to
the expenses of this Bill. Why was it that the tenants on the
several estates were to bear an expense to which, in justice,
they were in no way liable? He trusted that the House
would not accede to the Bill in its present state, because, with.
out some sufficient provision for the welfare of the people of
Ireland it would in effect be totally inoperative.—( Cheers. )
Mr. CALEB POWELL thought that this Bill would be
altogether useless, unless there was some assurance of the re-
moval of that abuse which rendered the people of Ireland sub-
servient to the rule of a Church which was abhorrent to their
principles, and without the abrogation of which no impartial
effect could be produced. He had come to this resolution
partly in consequence of the insufficiency of the evidence
which the Government had given for this Bill, and lie especially
alluded to a certain district in Limerick for the returns of out-
rages in that district, although lie had moved for them on the
23d of last month, and the officials had not been able to furnish
them. Now, with regard to the case of Sir David Roche.
What was the fact ? Why, he had been informed by a gentle-
man who was in the carriage at the time, that Sir D. Roche
had not been fired at at all.— (" But what does Sir D. Roche
say ?" from the Treasury Benches.—( Great laughter. )
lie believed that Sir D. Roche was lying
down in the seat of the carriage at the moment. There cer-
tainly was an explosion, but no missile struck the carriage—
( Laughter )—and he understood from the people of
Limerick themselves that it was a ruse of the agents of the
police. Now he would turn to the case of the sailor, who was
said to have been beaten to death. Why, as to that, it ap-
peared that the man was absolutely assailed by two milkmaids,
such as those who mixed water and chalk together in Caven-
dish-square.—(Laughter.) He knew that it was said that two
men had assailed him, and that he was in a dying state, but he
had been assured by persons acquainted with all the facts, that
there was not a stronger man in the county of Limerick at the
present moment.—(Laughter from the Ministerial benches.)
Still further, with respect to the alleged violence done upon a
man who held land in Tipperary. From what he had heard
there was no ground for these assertions, and the Right Hon.
Baronet would act upon very insufficient grounds, if
he allowed these to influence him in bringing in a Coer-
cion Bill for any part of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
There was another case which the Right Hon. Baronet had
quoted, as furnishing a ground for the introduction of the mea-
sure. The Right Hon. Baronet had said, that a respectable
gentleman, of the name of Wilson, had been obliged to leave
his place of residence in the county of Clare, through fear of
being made a victim of lawlessness by the tenants around him.
He (Mr. Powell) had known Mr. Wilson for many years, and
had found hint to be a very respectable and intelligent gentle-
man, and he really believed that he was of very great service
to the district in which he formerly resided. But he (Mr.
Powell) felt per:ectly certain that that gentleman need enter-
tain no such fears as had been alluded to by the Right lion.
Baronet on his introduction of the measure. There were no
reasons why he should not exercise all the legitimate rights of
his property in Clare, without entertaining the slightest f_zeaif
of molestation on the part of the surrounding tenantry.
l
deed, he (Mr. Powell) happened to knew, that the causes
which induced Mr. Wilson to change his residence were en-
tirely of a private nature, which he need not mention in that
House.—(Hear, hear.) And yet the Right Hon. Baronet
had referred to the case as evidence that the landed gentry of
Ireland were driven from their estates in consequence of the
lawless state of the peasantry. Arid even supposing that
Mr. Wilson had been obliged to retire from his resi-
dence in the county of Clrae, from the fears
alluded to by the Right lion. Baronet the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, did it follow that other gentlemen
should entertain similar fears, and be driven to similar deter-
minations ? He knew many gentlemen of property that lived
in the district from which Mr. Wilson had removed, and yet
no attacks whatever had been made upon their lives or pro-
perties, although he must asimit that his co-religionists, the
Protestant gentry of Ireland, were excessively inclined to pos-
sess anti exercise arbitrary powers over their Roman Catholic
fellow-subjects. He also knew a gentleman who had made a
great fortune by his trade in the city of Limerick ; and in a
conversation which he had with him lately, he asked him whe-
ther he felt the nocrssity of giving to the magistrates of that
district additional coercive powers against the people for the
purpose of preserving life and property, when he replied that
he certainly did riot ; that he had not a single fire-arm in his
house—and that frequently the bars and windows of his house
were left unbolted and open at night, and that he had never
suffered either in person or property by any acts of the pea-
santry.—( Hear, hear.) lie believed that the Right Hon.
Baronet had admitted that the cases of assassination of the
higher classes of society in Ireland were not so numerous nor
so shocking as those which had occurred in England.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM—I never said that.
Mr. POWELL said the Right Hon. Gentleman had said
something very like it, or he was very much mistaken. The
Right lion. Baronet would perhaps admit that he had said
something to this effect—" Perhaps, after all, these cases of
assassination in Ireland are not so very much out of the way, or
so very numerous, but then the people want to be protected
from each other, and that is what our measure is calculated to
effect " But where were the petitions of the people praying
the House to pass this so-called protective measure? The
Right Hon. Gentleman, in introducing this measure, made a
very sweeping charge againstthe morality of the people of Ire-
land.
He stated that they were in such a state of social dis-
organisation that the ordinary law was insufficient to meet their
lawless acts.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM—I did not say so.
Mr. POWELL--Then why did not the Government leave
the people of Ireland to the ordinary operation of the law ?
in
( Hear, hear.) He really could not feel anygratification
adducing arguments of recrimination for the purpose of con-
trasting the crimes of the people of Ireland with the outrages
as no source of
committed by the English people.
Itw
crimes committed
con-
solation to him to think that if there were
even
greater. num-
in Ireland there were crimes of ee.?l, and t.
_.( Hear:hear. )
'n this country.—( ry. .
ber and atrocity committed t
llinister assassinated in the very
Why, was there not a Prime i.
id the Prime Minister of that day
lobby of that House, and d .
with a measure for the coercion of
come down to the House Prime Minister of
Or did the present
this English people ?
tary was assassinated
a
ir the very centre of Westminster ? On

'r`'-

these grounds, therefore, he contended that-the Government -
did not legislate impartially towards the peopleofilreland. He •
could assure the House that if this measure were passed, it
would completely fail to secure the objects it contemplated.
On the contrary, it would only increase the present calamities
of Ireland. If its oppressive clauses were enforced, there
would certainly be a lamentable reaction. He could also
prove, from documents, that the evidence on which the
Government had relied in introducing this mea-
sure was not such as should be received by
the Members of that House, and although it had
been stated by the Right Honourable Baronet, the
Secretary of State for the Home Department that
social order in Ireland was completely disorganised, yet when
that young man came to be hanged in the front of the New
Bailey the populace greeted him with tremendous cheering.—
( Hear, hear.) So much for the statement of the Right Hon.
Gentleman as to the immorality of the Irish people. Perhaps
the Right lion. Baronet would, on reflection, see that his as-
sertion that the people of this country (lid not exhibit that
sympathy for criminals which was manifested in Ireland was
altogether untrue. Then, on the Bth of April, it appeared that
there had been a case of assassination in the county of Oxford
together with several other outrageous crimes, and that the
total number of crimes committed in that county since the last
ass:a-,s was 69. He did not think that the amount of crimes in
the county of Limerick would be found to exceed that. Bat it
would be a very invidious and disagreeable task for him to go
through the catalogue of English criminality. to show that the
people of Ireland were equally as moral as the people of this
country. Ile was very sorry to find that the Hon. Member
for Pomfret was not in his place, because that gentleman had
said a fees nights ago that this Act was a very harmless one, and
that it would not be considered anything more than a tem-
porary police co,rectionellc, and that it was impossible for any
incolivenience to result from it. Now, in such a case as this,
what would the Hon. Member for Pomfret think if the Pro-
testant people of that part of Yorkshire in which he resided
were to be handed over to the care of Roman Catholic magis-
trates? Would he not cry out against the abolition of the
British constitution, &e.? Would he nut become indignant, and
express his feelings against such an nnconstitutional proceeding?
And yet this measure proposed to place the Roman Catholics
of Ireland in the hands of Protestant magistrates, the mac
jority of whom had no sympathy for them.—(Hear, hear.)
And yet the lion. Member had advised her Majesty's Govern-
ment to pursue their present course. Mr. Shaw Lefevre had,
at one time, in that House, stated, when there were disturb•
ances amongst the peasansry of England, that the beat and
most effectual way of suppressing those disturbances was by
relieving their wants, not by goading them by coercive
i (Mr. Powell)
twillteeeim-reeanetinavvdb °Lett:. ndoicst.courpbiaendctehse
acmhaoinrgosft. tl276oHoouse?
mea-
sures to outrages still more violent.---( Hear.) And could he
quote an authority higher than that of the Right Hon. Gen-
found that in February, of the present year,
engaged in the constructionofrailwayCarlisle.
a in
NOW, ir such a t
yiaFSLI eilv the people wouldngh had
occurred in Ireland, most
what measures were in his o now ie.-Ike the liberty of stating
—( !leas, hear.) labourers—il etahr t)
Ile
wouldave pronounced it to be in rebellion.
fialculated tcosrom placeote
the
tranquillity of the people of mien
people of Ireland should have the laws impartially administered
to them ; the Government must not proscribe the constitu-
tional expression of political opinion in that country. He
thought that there was a very ample scope for physical
amelioration of the people of Ireland, in the reclamation of
waste lands.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that it would bea very
easy, and a very immediate mode to relieve the great physical
destitution that at present existed in Ireland, and he believed
that they would be perfectly justified in making eornoulsory
powers for the cultivation of those large tracts which were
left uncultivated. Then there was another remedy, however,
left for them if they would not do these things, and that was
the repeal of the legislative union between the twe
countries.—( Hear, hear.) If they would undertak a
to do that, he would undertake to say that it would
immediately improve the condition of the people of Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) But if they were not prepared to do any of
these things, would they adopt the other courses which he had
suggested for the amelioration of the Irish people ? If they
were net, however, to do any of those things, they might de-
pend upon it that the people of Ireland would some fine day
right themselves.
Mr. WARD said that few Members, who were in the
House, had had so much experience in Indian corn as himself.
He, too, was aware that at a public meeting that had recently
been held in Ireland, it was stated that this corn was a
sele.oirgmhaetntiy,mti
slow poison. Now, he had lived in countries where maize was
almost universally used as food by the people, one he had not
known a more wholesome food, nor one more capable of enabling
laeersnrght utcehr
diarrhoea
fnd time
the people to endure fatigue. It was a substantial, nourishing,
for any
wholesome diet, but it had only one fault. It would keep
sour.lr
oela nn d t,lhf ew,
air grain
each
hcoancri
atds;eb,
ihte
aetn
wereoitnwe
oat
oss
agii
dnr odouhfncdtehiest
Saxon Government and the Saxon Ministers ? He was happy to
say that, at a meeting the other day, a Mr. O'Shea boldly
stepped forward, and, in defiance of prejudice, explained the
nourishing and wholesome qualities of the fond.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
with regard to the distribution of the fond for the people, as
they could not know how to use it themselves ; orders had
been sent to the agents in Ireland to select officers for the dis-
tribution of the food ; those persons who had lived most in the
counties where the food had been used, and who were ac-
quainted with the manner in which it should be kept so as to
insure its soundness.
Mr. J. COLLETT presented a petition from the inhabitants
of the town of Athlone against the Coercion Bill, and remon-
strating against the effects of such a measure.
THE ORDERS OF THE DAY.
On the motion that the Orders of the day be read,
Mr. .J. O'BRIEN said that in rising to address the House
on this adjourned debate he had to express his regret that the
long and unavoidable discussion which had arisen should have
interfered with the progress of those measures of commercial
legislation introduced by her Majesty's Government, the
speedy adjudication of which he held to be not more essential
to trade, to the agricultural interest of the empire, than to the
modification of that destitution in Ireland, which was now no
longer a matter of speculation but of urgent and unquestionable
certainty. He had to regret his absence on a late occasion,
when the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Govern-
ment referred to the Member for Limerick, for he should have
offered his testimony in support of the accounts of the distress
in Ireland. He should have done so not only on his own know-
ledge, but on the unsuspected and almost official testimony of
the documents which he held in his hand. One was a letter
from the high sheriff of the city of Limerick, and the other was
an address from the relief committee of the city, bearing the
signature of the mayor, the Protestant dean, and the chairman
of the poor-law union. With the permission of the House he
would read their plain and simple statements. The letters
stated that in the city of Limerick the want of food was such
that they were not sure that the next moment an outbreak of
the people would not take place. The military were kept under
arms—a deputation had been sent to Dublin to express the
state of affairs to the Executive Government there. He felt
that he had been almost censurable in not having submitted to
the House before these documents, which were so strongly
illustrative of the wants and necessities of the city
which he had mentioned, and in which the south-
western portion of Ireland so fully participated. It
was necessary, with facts such as these before the
House, to join wise and humane measures with the
present measures of relief introduced by her Majesty's Govern-
ment. He would also remark how overpowering must be that
sense of duty which compelled a considerable proportion of the
Members for Ireland to resist those measures which the energy
of their country was said to have required—when that resist-
ance was accompanied by the unavoidable delay of the measures
for their country's good. That resistance was not alone the re-
sult of their own determination, but was fully in accordance
with the sentiments of people who would not consent to pur-
chase exemption from physical suffering without a parallel
for the surrender of their political rights by a seeming acqui-
esence with a measure so overstrained, so unconstitutional,
and so inoperative as the measure then before the House. He
rose to oppose that measure, and as cases of strange suffering
and unpunished crime had been demonstrated he telt it to be
his duty briefly to state the reasons which determined him to
give his opposition to the measure professedly intended to ar-
rest the perpetration of crime, and to achieve those objects
which it must be the general and permanent aim of all Govern.
ments to accomplish, safety to property, and protection to life.
Did he believe the measure capable of accomplishing these ob-
jects, no consideration of temporary unpopularity which might
arise from advocacy of the measure would deter him
from undertaking the responsibility of supporting the measure
—( Hear, hear)—for such a motive of resistance would be dis-
reputable and opposed to his principles. What was the measure
before the House ? Had it been fully, perfectly, and irresisti-
bly demonstrated by its advocates ? No ! and what aggravated
that n flection was, that this question was but a bad addition to
those past remedies whose inability along and painful experience
had rendered manifest. What was the condition of Ireland
after centuries of independent legislation, and a century of
imperial legislation? It was disturbed, distressed,
andinthe di,'
position of the people perma-
nently agitated. He could not find any peculiarity
of Ireland, nor any physical distinction
in the country to which they belonged, which throughout cen-
turies should have been so disastrous
lnt
b tothem and so little pro-
e wen,
instead of devi-
titable to the English.
Would it
or the punishment of crime, at
sing temporary expedien s f
and remove the causes tending to it. Those
once to ascertain
causes were the physical necessities of the people, and the poli-
tical discontent of the country , • both of these by a mutual and •
natural effect acting on and exasperating one another. It was
impossible to deny that the people of Ireland regard with dis-
like, and with an evil feeling, the principles of the English
Government in Ireland. They looked upon it as Anti-Catholic,
and Anti-Irish, which, notwithstanding the Emancipation Act
of 1829, excluded them frem the favour of the
Government, or the confidence of the Crown, and they laboured
under the double subjection of an alienated Government and
a sectarian ascendancy. He would also refer to the social con-
dition of the Irish people ; it was one of unparalleled suffering
and degradation, which emancipated them from all obligation.
to the maintenance of laws which offered no facility for the pro-
tection of property, nor secured even the common necessaries of
life. That such a condition of things was an incentive to
crime required but little reason to perceive, and that fact was
pal tieularly demonstrated by the class and description of per-
sons on whom the infliction of the law ultimately fell. It was
not the opulent farmer, nor the extensive landowner—they did
not find them amongst the occupiers of five acres—.they., were
whe
composed of a class, destitute, ignorant and impoverished, h d
and who
owed no defeience to the institutions of the coluotr
had no hope of any possible amelioration of their
crime, n.
by
Would they rescue this class from the temptation
them greater improving their condition, and by allowing
andmaking it
comforts,
ac-
commodation, and increasing their
uphold their interest to obey the laws, and the constitution of
the country? If he were asked
how this was to be achieved,
for the last
would refer to those voluminous Committees which
encumbered the records of the House—exam years had encum
Ales of unavailing inquiry and abortive legislation. He would
sfactory refer to unoccupied land, to the unsatijaw
rela-
tions between landlord and tenant, to the poor-law,
:al' for
which, when properly administered, was thde
fur
restbt :742,
and
social and political tranquillity, and provide
He should refer
welfare of the labouring classes of Ireland.
.
his remarks, omit.
to the non-resident gencry ; nor could he,
in
narian outrage—the
what he knew to be a feeble sourceaa
the differences of
absence of all accessible means of deciding
e_
or otherwise.
the people, arising from the tenure f
press the Government to
These were the measures he would
it
now
proposed to
coincidently with the measures
adopt
enact for Ireland.
ent was really a most disgrace-
Mr. WA RD thought the pres
ful state of the House.
A great constitutional questionwas
l times in the course of the evening he
now before it. Several
inclined, times
have called the attention of the
could, had he been
ses° ane of there not being fot Members
Speaker to the cirri to state his reasons why he, sar
an English-
He begg
present.
the present measure. He believed that
would not support
man'
in Ireland, in one particular class of crime, the sympathies of
the people were in favour of the criminal ai.d against the law.
o
They c • uld not get juries to convict, or witnesses to give evi-
dence against the criminal. If, then, they had to deal with
such a state of things as these, he thought that of all
times the present was a time for the House to
pause and consider to what cause this perverted
mora'ity could be traced. Were they always to bring
forward the worn out and vulgar measure called. coercion?
Why not deal with Ireland upon enlightened principles. He
did not wish to indulge in recriminations. He could.
_not help_e
saying that those who now sat upon the other side of the
House when upon his side inflamed as much as possible the
minds of the public by their expressions of bigotry
towards
the Irish people. He hoped that Members on his side of the
House would be more just, and act in a better manner upon the
present occasion. He was prepared to support the Glom-