The Sun.
London, England, 1870-09-21 00:00:00

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islands he found the utmost civilization, even a dry
dock, and every facility for building ships, and also
a little railway used to bring down stores
to the sea shore. A reference was made to

B. Hodgson thought the man was theinore culpable of the two
if they wished to extirpate this vice they must go much
deeper than these measures went. Mrs. Butler said that
a distinction should be drawn between garrison towns and
the civil population in these distinctions. She had visited
all those towns and seen thousands of women, and on in-
quiring into their secret history she found that more than half
their earnings were received from civilians. The Presi-
dent said he had never formed a definite opinion on the
subject, but ,he thought that it should be treated on
statistical grounds • and, if that were so, they might well
leave it to Parliament and the medical profession. The
time having arrived for other business, the discussion was
here brought to a close.
A group of papers on subjects incidental to the science
of naval architecture, read in the mechanical science sec-
tion, led to an interesting discussion on the loss of the
ill-fated Captain. Amongst those taking a prominent
part in it was Mr. Reed, the chief constructor of the navy,
who expressed these views of his own ships of the class to I
which the Captain belonged which have so frequently, in
one form or another, been brought under the notice of
the public. Mr. Reed made no secret of his belief that
the Captain would never - have', been •• a• safe
vessel, even though she had continued afloat • fop
many years. His reasons for thus distrusting her
construction were pointed • out in • detail by • aid'. of
drawings on the beach board. He strongly depreCited
sailors being sent to sea in dangerous vessels. They were
exposed to quite enough perils without this one being
added. It had been said that the sailors on board
the Captain had the .fullest confidence in her.
But he contended that this was an absurd statement, for
they really knew nothing about her. It was impossible
for theth to be held responsible for the catastrophe on
account of the confidence they May ^have 'displayed.
Of Captain Burgoyne,• Mr. Reed, spoke very highly;
and, while disavowing- the opinion that ironclad
ships were less safe than wooden one's, `he
expressed a feeling 'that r : there was a chance
that England would have to pay even a greater
price than the terrible loss of the Caj3tain
before the folly of constructing such vessels as the one
just lost was admitted. Admiral Belcher, in the discus-
sion, spoke very strongly upon the slur that had
been cast by Captain ' Pimm upon Captain
Burgoyne.. The unfortunate Captain was, he
said, one of the best and most experienced officers
in the British navy. The court martial now being held
at Portsmouth would. exonerate.from blame all on board
the Captain, and cover Captain Pim with conffision.
These observations were received with loud applause.-'A
captain-in the Mitch Navy Offered some observations
the question of high or low free, boards, which was,
_he
contended; one that must be decided by experience.—Mr.
Fennell,, connected with the Statistical Department of
, the Adianralty, contended that the Captain was rather too
small for the weight of her armour and her guns.—Pro-
fessor Rankine thought it better to avoid passing an opi-
nion on the cause of the Captain's loss pending the inquiry
now being made. The other sections not specifically
mentioned above were busily occupied with the papers, ,
and the whole of the departments were well attended.
Some of the sections may sit for an hour or two to-morrow
prior to the concluding meeting; to clear off papers not
readlor watt Of.time to-day.; these, however, will be few,
t The soiree, at St. George's Hall to-night, promises to be a
a great and attractive reunion.
• Mr. Dudley Baxter read an admirable paper on the
national debts of all the, great countries, in the world. He
described the rise and progress of the debts of nations,
graphically, pointed out their increase and decrease, and
'discussed their probable consequences and the desirability
of steps for their diminution. With respect to the
debts of the United Kingdom Mr. Baxter said :
"The debt of the United Kingdom is recorded
in very great detail in the returns presented
to Parliament ; but a perfectly accurate comparison
of its amount at different periods is prevented -lop the
absence for all but the latest years of the capitalised value
of the Terminable Annuities, which must therefore be
omitted in the figures that follow, which include
only the funded and floating debt. The National
•debt of Great Britain commenced in earnest after

the shelling of the Monastry of Solovets by the
English at the time of the war with Russia, which it was
stated had left an unpleasant memory behind. A graceful
tribute was paid to the courtesy displayed to Mr. Dixon
,
by the chief authority on the island. Admiral
. ,
Belcher, referring to the shelling of the monas-
tery, explained that it would have been treated
as a holy place, but that Admiral Omanney, who was
in command of the fleet felt that • the British flag was
insulted by some shots which were fired from the islands,
and he acted on the late Lord Palmerston's principle that
any insult to the British flag ougfit to be instantly re-
sented. Only some forty shells were thrown into the
place.
The history of the shell that won the battle of Sedan
was the title of a paper read in the Mechanical Science by
Mr. W. Hope, who wears the Victoria Cross. As a
matter of fact the document in question had far more to
do with the battle carried on against the War-Office
by the author to get an invention of his own, tecogr
nised, than with the attack upon the Northern French
fortress. Briefly, Mr. Hope claims to be the inventor
of the destructive shell which has been introduced into
the service under the name of Boxer's 'shrapnel, which
shell, he states it was, which proved so deadly at Sedan.
The paper recounted the efforts put forth to convince the
War Office authorities that the projectile was really to be
credited to Mr. Hope, who affirms. that the invention
was pirated by Colonel Boxer, to whom he had communi-.
cated it. And he at length referred to the correspondence
that had passed on the subject.
In the Economic Science and Statistics Section,
there was a discussion on the Contagious Diseases
Act. The President, Professor Gevons, said
it had been considered by the committee whether the
subject should come before a public meeting. Many
thought it ought to be left to those who were ac-
quainted with it by professional acceptations. But as
nothing effectual could be done without general consent,and
as the public disapproved of the question being secretly
debated in Parliament, which had done more harm than
good in the matter, the committee had come to the con-
clusion to permit all proper discussion. The paper to be
read was by Mr. Berkeley Hill, M. 8., F.R.C.S., on
" Statistical Results of the Contagious Diseases Acts,"but
Mr. Hill he regretted to say had been called away to the
continent in connection with the war. The section was
well attended, and about ten ladies were present. Mr.
Macrory, the secretary, read the paper, which gave many
returns from hospitals, workhouses, and other institutions,
shewing that contagious venereal' diseases greatly pre-
vailed in the large towns. With regard to the army and
navy, he quoted different returns to prove that these acts
had operated most beneficially in diminishing disease. With
regard to the effect on the moral and social condition of
women, he stated that of 7,766 registered at certain mili-
tary and naval stations, 4,750 no longer followed their
vocation. Twenty-seven per cent. were known to have
returned to a respectable life, and thirty-two per cent.
had left the stations, no doubt to pursue their mise-
rable life elsewhere. Mr. Grazebrook, denying
that the Acts went to the root of the evil, protested
against a ban being placed on women when the men
were more at fault, or participes criminis. This was one-
sided legislation, and a gross violation of justice to women,
and they should rather attempt,to cure the evil by ref
matories and education and by Christian principles.--
Mrs. Butler having intimated that she wished to speak,
was invited on the platform, and read some obser-
vations on the question, in the course of which
she referred to the opposition which had been and would
continue to be offered to the Acts, speaking of them as
laws detested by the people, and to which they would not
submit. Tens of thousands of persons had banded
themselves together to continue opposition to the Acts
until they were repealed. The address was greeted with
cheers from a considerable number in the room.—
Dr. De Meschin thought that the House of Commons
committed a grave error in closing its doors when this
subject was being discussed.—Mr. James A. Picton re-
marked that he had no predilection for the one theory or
the other. That the matter was not to be decided
by acclamation, and confessed he did not know
what was meant when it was said that women
had been placed under a ban. Mr. Graze-
brook said he meant that the acts only applied
to women and not to men, which WAS manifestly unjust,
and that any women in the streets might happen to be
suspected, and in that case, though perfectly respectable,
the consequences of the Acts would follow.—Mr. Picton
said he understood that they applied to garrison soldiers
as well as to fallen women in garrison towns.--Dr. De
Meschin explained that soldiers were liable to inspection
by virtue of military rule, and not by the Acts.
Mr. Picton thought the statistics shewed that the results
of the Acts had been beneficial in the highest degree;
and that it was worth while to resort to a little, compul-
sion, if it had the effect of withdrawing a large proportion
of these women from their miserable life. The
mere question of expense was not to be com-
pared to the benefit accruing from these
enactments. It was desirable that the experiment should
be extended cautiously and with proper safeguards for
the public liberty, because no one could doubt it was
their duty, if possible,. to arrest the spread of disease
throughout a community working up from the lowest
grades to those above them, and carrying the germs of
pollution and misery from generation to genera-
tion.— The Rev. George Poole generally condemed the
Acts, contending that the system of examination was the
foulest wrong to which a woman could be subject, and
that its advocates sought to find a remedy against the
effects of this disease by the protection of vice.—Mr.
A. H. Bright quoted some statistics to prove that 90 per
cent. of the deaths from syphillis in Liverpoolwere those of
children under 9 years of age, and said that from his point
of view any. enactment which would prevent this murder
of the innocents was a righteous thing. Mr. Kitchener
said it should be considered whether the indignity to
which the women were subjected could be ameliorated
without doing away with the beneficial effects of
the Acts, ' and suggested that the examinations
might be conducted by, properly qualified women.
Mr. Dalrymple, M.P. for Bath, said that
having sat on the select committee of 1869, he would
have acted directly opposite to his feelings, senses, and
convictions, if after hearing the inquiry he had not joined
in the recommendation to extend the Act. He instanced
the case of Algiers in proof of the beneficial effects of such
legislation, and said that in this. country it 'enabled a
strong moral influence to be-ex( rted on unfortunate women
at a time most favourable for reclaiming them. If the
alleged atrocities had really been committed by the autho-
rities in carrying out the Acts he should vote against
further legislation, but unless they were positively
proved he believed it was his duty to his
constituents and society to old this legisla-
tion. Mr. Andrew Leighton, thought that if the
male parent was guilty of ptopogating this disease, as
most likely would be found to be the case, he should be
punished. He objected to these acts, which violated the
civil rights of , half the community in which, they were put
into force.' Mr. F. Wilson traced allthis evil to the absence
of home affections and influences whichnow seemed to be
en-tiiely thrown aside. Young men, were cast upon the
world without having felt those, and why? Because the
people of this country were virtually dependent upon a
few landlords ; having merely leasehold property, they
had no attachment to the place they lived in, and mar-
riage seemed not to be thought of. Young
ladies were generally averse to marriage be-

the revolution of 1688, and the wars of William 111.
'Anne, and George 11. brought up its amount in 1763 to
£132,700,000. • After a reduction of £5,600,000 during
the eleven years of peace that followed, the American war
in ten years ,nearly doubled its amount and left it in
1784 at £243,000,000. After a second reduction of
23;400,000 during the ten yeare of peace that succeeded, the
French war in 21 years added £621,000,000, and left in
1815 a total debt of £861,000,000. The thirty-nine years
peace that ensued diminished it by £92,000,000 (princi-
pally during • the first fifteen years to 1830) and
left it in• 1854 at £769,000,000. The Crimean
, years raised .
war 'in two its amount in 1856
to £808,000,000. The . peace since 1856 and the
conversion of £31,006,000 of the Funded Debt into Ter-
minable Annuities reduced it by 1869 to £749,000,000:
Such are.the chief epochs of the history of our National
Debt. But we must not omit to observe the large rates
of increase in time of war, and the'small rates of decrease
in time of peace. In the wenty-one years of peace under
George 111., the annual reductions were £430,000 ; in the
thirty-nine , years peace-1815 to 1854—the reductions
amounted to £2,350,000 annually ; in the fourteen years
—1856 to 1870—the reductions per annum were £2,000,000
excluding the £31,000,000 converted into terminable
annuities). Rates of decrease that are far too small for a
wealthy and prosperous nation like England. In the case
of France he said that the country's debt had always been
involved in obscurity. " There is not a single man in
France," said a high official in the Ministry of
Finance, " who can tell the exact state of the
National Debt. Pas un seul." In early times its
amount was constantly changing through !forced reduc-
tions and consolidations, and in later days it has always
been buried in complicated and inaccessible accounts, with
no parliamentary returns to place the figures before the
nation. The mode of statement varies from that of
England, being ordinarily in Rentes, or annual interest,
and it is more difficult to obtain the equivalent amounts
of capital, which are necessary for our present comparison.
Mr. Baxter said : —The information which I have
obtained has been from two principal sources, the " Com-
pendium of Finance," by Mr. Bernard Cohen for the
amounts in the 18th century ; and the kind investigations
of the distinguished . French statist M. Maurice Block,
for the figures since 1798. The debt of France was largely
developed by Louis XIV, and at his death in 1715 amounted
to a capital of £124,000,000. It was arbitrarily reduced
by the Regent, in 1716, to £80,000,000. After that time
it fluctuated by many reductions and increases under the
two subsequent Kings till 'the Revolution. The
Revolution created and destroyed a temporary
debt of no less than £1,823,000,000 of assig-
nats, and £96,000,600 of mandats, and raised the
funded debt to £96,000,000. This amount was compul-
sorily reduced to one-third—the stock was thence
called the Tiers Consolides, and stood in 1798
at £32,000,000. The First Empire increased its
amount far less than might have been expected—thanks
to the contributions levied on other nations,—and left it
(including afloating debt of £20000,000) at rath ermorethan
double, or £70,645,000. The Bourbons were compelled to
borrow for the payment of £55,000,000 levied on France
for war contributions and the army of occupation, and
the sixteen years of their reign again doubled its amount,
leavingit in 18302141,770,000. The Orleans reign a third time
doubled the nominal capital, leaving it in 1848 £299,650,000.
The Republic reduced it in 1852 by a great conversisn of
five into four-and-a-half per cents to £245,250,000.
The Second Empire, by continued deficits, and
the Crimean, Italian, Chinese, Cochin . China,
Mexican, and German Wars, a fourth time
doubled the capital, and left its amount on September Ist,
1870, at £518,000,000. All these amounts since 1798 care-
fullyexclude the Sinking Fund (whichhas been erroneously
included by almost every writer), but include the floating
debt. The average annual increase of capital of French debt,
Mr. Baxter stated, was, under the First Empire—to 1815,
£2,500,000 a year ; under the Bourbons-1815 to 1830,
nearly £5,000,000 a year • under the House of Orleans-
-1831 to rB4B, nearly £10,600,000 a year ; and in the time
of the Second Empire-1853 to 1870, £15,000;000 a year.
Mr. Baxter, however, said that .in considering the
national debt of Tiance we must not fordet that by the
terms of the concessions of her railways the State will in
the middle of the next century become the unencumbered
owner of all the railways now existing in her terri-
tory—a property now worth more than £300,000,000.
In his more general remarks, Mr. Baxter said the United
States are paying off their debt at the rate of £1.5,000,000
a-year, by resolute taxation and surpluses. England
reduces her indebtedness chiefly by Terminable Annuities.
But we require a more ra.pid and lamer reduction,
which we can only obtain by' insisting on far
larger surpluses, or by adopting some additional
method. Why should we not create a sinking
fund by allotment of the taxes on successions
(probate, legacy, and succession duty), themselves taxes
on capital, to reduce the capital • of the
debt, in addition to our terminable annuities
and the surpluses of prosperous years? In urging
the reasons for a policy of vigorous reduction, I
do not forget the arguments drawn from the exposition of
Professor Jevons of 'the future exhaustion of our coal.
With those who consider the future it must have great
weight ; but even great statesmen are seldom statesmen
enough to act for the far future of a nation, and how can
we expect it of the popular mind ? I would rather ground
myadvocacy on the necessity of lightening the burdens
onindustry, and 'on the Considerationthat any great war,
as wars are now waged, must enormously increase the
debt, and throw us hack twenty years of reduction
for every year of war. By a good Providence we have
for fifty-five years been exempt from any life or death
struggle, requiring great armies and naval forces, and
' their gigantic expenditure. But we had no right to