The Sun.
London, England, 1846-07-21 00:00:00

libese unfortunate beings, who had neither just
Judge or jury.—(Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen seemed to
snake very merry on this question, but he would just read to
them some extracts from a pamphlet which he held in his
hand, in which it was stated, that for a most trivial fault it
was customary to tie the sailor to a mast, either in cold or
scorching weather, and leave him exposed for several hours
—or oblige him to run up and down the rigging under a
scorching sun—or condemn him to wear a wooden collar
days and nights together—or inflict upon him the brutal
punishment of the lash ; and all this might be done
without even the formalities of a trial.—( Hear, hear.)
All those acquainted with the proceedings on board of ship
mast know that nearly all the mutinies that had taken place in
the navy have had their origin in this practice of flogging.
But the important question they had to ask themselves was,
was this system
of flogging necessary ? He had had commit-
nications on the subject with many officers in the navy, and
their general opinion was, that flogging, except in very extreme
cases, was not necessary. And it so—if there were cases in
which flogging might be considered necessary—then he main-
tained there ought to be a provision for a court martial to
adjudicate punishment. And who were the parties who were
in the practice of resorting to flogging in the navy ? Not the
old and experienced officers, but those who were called mar-
einets, who were exceedingly fastidious on the point of discip-
line, and who perhaps did not well know what the duties of an
old sailor were. It was well known that Nelson abhorred
togging, and only resorted to it in extreme cases ; and that
that great man, Napoleon, abolished flogging when he came
into supreme power. The reaeta why, as stated by the Hon.
and Gallant Member (Sir Charles Napier), they had inferior
seamen in the navy was this abominable practice of flogging.
Out of 110,Q00 men in the United States navy and merchant
service, not more than 20,00 were citizens of America ;
the greater number were Englishmen who bad been attracted
to that service on account of the superior treatment they re-
ceived and the system adopted in the British navy. He en-
treated the present Government calmly and dispassionately to
consider this question, and afford a remedy ; especially he
trusted that the principle of a court-martial would be adopted.
He hoped that redress would be afforded, so that he should
not have again to bring the question before the House.
Mr. WARE) would beg to remind the Hon. Member and
the House that the present Admiralty had only come into
office on Monday last, and therefore had not had time to con-
sider the question. He hoped, therefore, the point would
not be pressed by the Hon. Member at present. It could not
be denied, and, in fact, the Hon. Gentleman had himself ad-
mitted it, that it was impossible to keep large bodies of men in
a fit state of discipline without punishment of some kind, and
which would sometimes have to be of a severe character. He
(Mr. Ward) was glad to say that a great improvement had
taken place in regard to the punishment of flogging within
the last few years.—(Cries of ‘. Hear, hear.") In 1832,
out of 34,000, the cases of severe punishment were 2,000; in
1845, out of 40,000 men, the cases were but 1,200.--( Hear,
bear.) The Hon. Member might rest assured that nothing
would be left undone by the present Admiralty to do away
with arbitrary and undue punishment, and to bring into opera-
tion moral and elevating influences instead.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME hoped they would, as far as possible, modify the
rules arid punishments in the navy, so that they might har-
monise more than they now did with the spirit of the age.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, it was quite impossible
that the efficiency and discipline of the navy could be preserved
without the power of inflicting corporeal punishment in cases
of misconduct on the part of the sailors, and he for one was
therefore decidedly opposed to its abolition. In the event of
the punishment being unnecessarily severe, there was a court
of appeal for the sailor, but instances of severity seldom or
never occurred, owing, as he contended, to the majority of the
commanders being averse to the, system of always having re-
course to corporeal punishment.—( Hear, hear.) Still, how-
ever, he was of opinion, that if they took the power from them,
there would be an end to the present efficiency and discipline
of the service.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER suggested that, after the explanation they
had heard from the Genoa Admiral, the Hon. Member for
Coventry ought net to persevere in his motion, but he could
not go so far as the Gallant Admiral in his admiration or
estimation of corporeal punishment. What he found fault
with in the system was this, that the articles of war gave the
captain the power of inflicting the punishment without having
recourse to a court-martial.—( Hear, hear.)
Admfral DUNDAS thought it would Be almost impossible
to carry on the business of the navy without inflicting corporeal
punishments-4 Hear, hear. )
Captain PECHELL was not opposed to continuing the
poser, but he certainly was an advocate for its being used in a
moderate manner, and only in extreme cases, when other
modes of punishment had failed.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. TRELAWNEY urged upon Government the necessity
of increasing the pay of the sailors engaged in the navy. Some
people thought dread of the lash kept efficient seamen out of
the service, but in his opinion it was the low pay, and not the
lash. —( Hear. hear.)
Lord INGESTRE said the commander of a ship in her
Majesty's service had a good deal of responsibility on his
shoulders, and it was indispensably necessary that he should
be invested with the power of inflicting corporeal punishment
where the exigencies of the ease required it.--( Hear, hear.)
He hoped that nothing would be done to destroy that good feel-
ing which at present prevailed in the army and navy.
VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.
On the question that the Speaker do now leave the chair,
Mr. EWAR T moved " That it is expedient that the prac-
tice of making Van Diemen's Land a general receptacle for
convicts should cease, and that transportation be discontinued."
The present system entailed the most awful consequences on
the people of that country. At the present moment the con-
vict population was about 34,000, whilst the free population
was only 30,0.30. Now, the result was, that there was a most
fearful contamination, and the free people were not safe either
in or out of doers. Many of the free people -had openly said
that they would rather see their children die before their eyes
than see them continue to grow up amongst the convict po-
pulation. Now there was a system which might gradually
remedy the evil, and that was this, that the convicts of this
Country should be imprisoned here for the terms to which they
might be sentenced, and at the expiration conveyed away to
some colony, where they might be free to follow those pro-
fessions to which they had been brought up. That system
had been adopted as regarded Port Philip, and the
results were most satisfactory ; the released convicts
were gradually made honest and industrious. Instead
of accumulating our convicts into one spot, he contended that
they should be punished here, and afterwards dispersed
throughout our different colonies. The annals of our colonies
loudly called upon us to bestir ourselves on this head ; they
showed that our present system was productive of the most
frightful results. The system which he recommended was al-
ready adopted and approved of in France. He would forego
going into this subject at any great length, in consequence of
the late period of the session, as well as the change of the Go-
vernment; but he trusted, thatibriefly as he had called the at-
tention of the Government to this subject, they would take it
into their most serious consideration.
The motion having been put,
Sir GEORGE GREY admitted that this subject was one
which deserved the most earnest attention of the Government.
Something was now in the course of being done to remove the
eviliof which the Hon. Gentleman had justly complained, and
he hoped, that in the space of about two years, the good
effects of those efforts would begin to manifest themselves.
with regard to the second proposition, it could not be supposed
that her Majesty's Government were in a position at present
to give any answer upon the subject. In theory he entirely
agreed with the Hon. Member for Dumfries. The question
of punishment was one of the most difficult with which a
Government could deal. But the Hon. Member might rest
assured that the subject would receive the best consideration of
her Majesty's Government.
Lord H. VANE made a few remarks, which were perfectly
inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. HOPE said that an alteration had been made in the
system of transportation by his Noble Friend ; religious im-
provement had been made among them ; several directions
were sent out for the classification and assignment of the con-
victs. There were great difficulties attendant upon dealing
with this complicated qnestion, and the plan proposed by the
Hon. Member for Dumfries was one which could not be con-
veniently carried out.
Mr. HUME considered that to attempt reformation in this
country would be to bring upon this country all the evils
complained of in the settlements to which the convicts were
now sent ; he thought that education would be the most proper
mode of removing and preventing crime.
Mr. HAWES assured the House that the attention of her
Majesty's Government should be directed to the subject of
transportation to Van Diemen's Land.
After a few remarks from Mr. Hope (in explanation), . Hawes, and Mr. Ewart, the motion was withdrawn.
On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply,
Sir C. NAPIER rose to put a question to the Admiralty,
respecting the cost of building, repairing, and pulling down
the vessels lately built. He thought if the Government had
spent more money in manning the navy than in building ships,
the navy would have been in a much more efficient position.
The manner in which the late Government spent the money
voted for the repair of dock-yards was moat improvident.
There were an immense number of the vessels laid down upon
the stocks which were of the same dimensions. There was
also an enormous waste of money expended in block-ships.
He found that no less than six 74-gun vesselswere used 'as such,
when other vessels less expensive would have answered as well.
The screw principle had not been properly tried save in the
Rattler. He had also to c implsin of the very inefficient man.
ner in which the construction of the vessels were carried out.
He admitted that the late Government had done much for the
sailor in the way of improving his food, but he wanted to
know what that or any other Government had done towards
manning the navy on an emergency. A good deal was done
last session in passing the Registration
. Bill,b t it had defects,
and he hoped the present secretary would take early steps to
remove
had been rendered complete, that Government shored eau an the seamen of the country out by presses. Immediately after
a young man had served his apprenticeship on board of a mer-
chantman, he should Ise taken on board one of her Majesty's
ships, and having served a short while their, ha should be
allowed to return to the merchant service. If this system were
adopted, the navy would always be efficient, while, on immer-
gencies, it could be manned with skilful and experienced
mariners without the least difficulty. (Hear, hear.)
Its believed that nothing would so much raise the hopes of the
seamen of this country as the establishment by the Board of
Admiralty of a seaman's home at Plymouth, where their
morals, health, and bellies would be provided for. Unless
some one not a Member of the Admiralty were appointed to
the building of the ships, he was sure things would always go
wrong. The duties of the present head of that department
were too numerons to allow him properly to discharge his duty,
and involved in the end the useless expenditure of a large sum
of money annually. Ile hoped that a proper Board of Con-
struction would be appoined, who should sit in London, and
whose number should consist of three able men. Those men
would have the opportunity of considering all plans on subjects
connected with the navy shipbuilding. Having thanked the
House for the attention which they had paid to him, the Hon.
Gentleman concluded his observations.
Mr. WARD- hoped that the lion. and Gallant Member
would allow the House to go into a Committee of Supply.
The subjects referred to by the Hon. and Gallant Member
would be duly attended to.
Mr. HUME deprecated the system of changing the members
of the Board of Admiralty with the change of the Govern-
ment. He also deprecated the perpetual system of crying
down our navy. He really thought that discussions of this
sort did the country very great injury.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord INGESTRE considered that the Hon. and Gallant
Member had acted very properly in bringing the state of 'he
navy before the House. He ( Lord Ingestre) had often im.
pressetlopon the House the necessity of appointing a Board of
Constructicn. He protested against the present
_ys stem of
lavish expenditure on the part of the Admiralty.
The men-
of-war that had been recently built were clearly disgraceful to
those who were concerned in the construction of them. He
had, on a former occasion, asked for a full report of the
character of the different men-of- war that had been
built and sent out during the past few years.
--(Hear, hear.) That report had not been produced.
and he often called upon the Government to produce such a
report. He was of opinion that there should be more than oue
surveyor of the navy. He must certainly compliment the late
Board:on having appointed a Committee of Reference, which
he believed was a step in the right direction. But even that
step was a mere instalment. He hoped the Board would pro-
ceed in their present course of reform. They had also re-
established the school of naval architecture ; that was another
step in the right direetion.—(Hear, hear.) But the Govern-
meat he hoped would find it to be expedient to reform that
school, by opening it to the best talent of the country. The sum
that bad been expended in the eonotructien of her Majesty's

yacht was perfectly frightful ; bad there been a proper system
in operation, that would not have been the case. In this man-
ner the country were constantly throwing away the money of
the public instead of applying it to more useful reforms and
a more efficient navy.
Admiral DUNDAS said that the Government bad now a
number of frigates and vessels better manned than they had
ever been at any time.
Admiral BOWLES also made some statements to the same
effect.
Mr. M. GORE wished to call the attention of the Govern-
ment to the necessity of affording the means of education
and a home to the British sailor.
SUPPLY.
The House then went into a Committee of Supply.
On the motion of Mr. WARD, the sum of 394,7261. was
voted for the navy estimates.
Captain PECHELL said that 267 letters had been sent in,
requesting retirement under the proposed regulations of the
late Board. Those regulations had not been carried into effect,
and he thought it but a matter of justice that those letters
should be returned, otherwise they might prejudice their claims
to active service, should these regulations not be carried into
effect.
Mr. WARD thought that upon a future occasion the House
would have a more favourable opportunity for entering into the
deails and merits of the question.
Captain FITZROY made some remarks in explanation of
the late attempt to form a new system of retiring allowances for
the officers of the navy.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 705,4431. was next proposed to provide for half-
pay officers, and the officers of the royal marine.
This vote was also agreed to.
Sir R. H. INGLIS wished to bring forward his motion, of
which he had given notice, respecting the Museum estimates.
Mr. El (DIE proposed that the chairman do report progress.
It was then half-past twelve o'clock, and it would take him
half an hour to explain his objection to the vote ; one ground
of his complaint was, that the library was neglected; another,
that the members of the committee did not attend to the re-
commendations of the Committee of that House ; there were
several other grounds of objection which he would not, now
go into.
The CHAIRMAN, after some discussion between Sir H. In-
glis and Mr. Hume, then reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again on Wednesday.
The Tenants Compensation Ireland Bill went through Corn..
mittee prP forma.
The Wreck and Salvage Bill was postponed till Thursday
next.
The Newfoundland Bill was postponed till Ago: day next.
CLERKS OF THE CROWN, &c. (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill was postponed to the same day.
EXCLUSIVE PRIVILEGE OF TRA LANG ABOLITION

(IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill was committed pro forma, for the purpose of in
troducing amendments.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL.
This Bill was withdrawn.
BOOKS AND ENGRAVINGS BILL.
This Bill was read a second time.
SUPPLY.
The report of the Committe on Supply was then brought up
and agreed to.

SHANNON NAVIGATION BILL.
This Bill was read a second time.
COMMONS INCLOSURE (No. 2) BILL.
Oa the motion that the House resolve itself into Committee
on this Bill,
Mr. BROTHERTON said he thought that this Bill should
not be proceeded with at so late an hour (one o'clock).
Lord LINCOLN was very much opposed to it.
The House, however, went into Committee on the Bill. The
clauses with some amendments were agreed to, and the report
ordered to be brought up on Wednesday next.
ORDNANCE SURVEY BILL.
This Bill was then read a third time and passed.
PRISONS (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill was read a second time.
FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion that this Bill be read a second time,
Captain JONES gave notice of his intention to oppose it in
Committee.
The Bill, after a few observations, was read a second time.
Mr. BROTHERTON said there were some other Irish
Bills, and as it was then half-past one o'clock, he should move
that the House do adjourn.

THE MILITIA.
Mr. F. MAULE obtained leave to bring in a Bill to sus-
pend for a limited time the making of lists and ballots for the
enrolment of the militia in the United Kingdom.
The same RIGHT HoN. GENTLEMAN also moved the ap-
pointment of a Select Committee to prepare the militia sche-
dules, which was agreed to.
SUNDA Y TRADING
Mr. HINDLEY having moved for leave. to bring in a Bill
to suppress Sunday trading,
Mr. WARBURTON said he had no notion that his Hon.
Friend would have moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the
better observance—(Laughter)— of the Sabbath at so late an
hour, and as he was decidedly opposed to such a Bill, he should
move the House do now adjourn.
Mr. HINDLEY consented to withdraw his motion for the i
present.

CORONERS' (IRELAND) BILL.
The Lords' amendments to this Bill having been considered
and adopted,
The House adjourned at Two o'clock.

THE SUGAR QUESTION
(F
nyrom the Times.)
Without making a pretension to the perilous function
assigned to us by the Honourable Member for Finsbury, we
believe we may confidently acquaint our readers with the
outlines of the plan in which the Cabinet delibrations on the
sugar duties have finally resulted. It is not such as was
remotely contemplated at the very commencement of the
month by the chiefs of the still unformed Cabinet,
though, on the other hand, a somewhat - more modi-
fied measure than that which a contemporary has
been at considerable pains to force upon the Govern-
merit. The distinction between slave and free grown sugar is,
of course, immediately to cease ; on that point there has been no
alteration. Instead, however, of a three years' maintenance
of the existing protection against foreign sugar of free growth,
it will be proposed that the gradual diminution shall imme-
diately commence. According to a scale which has been shown
to us, the absolute duty on foreign sugar will for the ensuing
twelvemonths be about 215., and the protective dnty will finally
expire at the end of five years, when all the sugars of
all the world will be admitted on the 14s. duty, to which ,
our own colonial sugar is now subject. It is unnecessary
to point out that there is a considerable difference between
this and the scheme which was under discussion three weeks
since, and which would have maintained the present rate of
protection to colonial sugar for two or three years longer,
and then by a more rapid descent have removed it altogether
by the same period at which it is still intended to
cease. The question will be asked, why this
change ? The chiefs of the new Cabinet were
fully alive to the difficulties of their situation, and
were fully aware that the defeat, or rather the natural disso-
lution of one Ministry by no means involved the secure esta-
blishment of another. they felt a wish, therefore—a wish
in which we most entirely sympathised—to meet the pacific
tendencies of the Protectionist party, and the prudent mode-
ration of those who had gathered round the person of the late
Minister. Accordingly, they proposed to protract what may
be styled " the decline and fall" of colonial protection to a
term which they thought might possibly propitiate a con-
siderable number of those who are either personally or po-
litically interested in the question. What -effect the an-
nouncement of their moderate plan had with the 112, and
whether it was even necessary in their case, we cannot
say. It was, however, lost on the Protectionists.
These very unreasonable gentlemen, whom for their
own sakes we are heartily sorry to see bent upon
doing themselves all the mishief in their power,
have now hoisted over the hogshead of colonial
sugar that standard of "No SURISENDEft " which
they have so recently been compelled to lower
from a far more sacred and impregnable fortress, the sack of
British corn. Since, therefore, they will not be treated with
or mollified on any terms, Ministers have had no alternative
but to leave them out of the question, and adopt a scale they
consider more suitable to the actual exigencies of the case.
It was hoped by the proposition of the longer term to obtain
the acquiescence of the Protectionists in by far the most im-
portant
grown sugar. To this point, however, it appears, as was, in-
deed, to be expected, they have directed the chief weight of their
opposition. The question will turn on the religious bearings
of the case. The no-slavery cry will be resuscitated by a
new and rather uncongenial band of philanthropists, who,
we apprehend, will not be able to allege either consistency
or prescription in support of their calling. Rumour points
out Mr. Gladstone as the leader whom they have had what
they consider the good fortune to secure, and whom they think
no very ridiculous ambition to design for that splendid but
difficult post which a Peel, and after him a Russell, had
just before abdicated. Perhaps it will be thought a
work of supererogation to develope the policy of those gentle-
men. They meditate, of course, a reconstruction of the Con-
servative party, on some basis, and under some leadership,
which victory may possibly give them the opportunities
or the leisure to choose. We should be the very last to
oppose so natural a design, if it could be satisfactory
explained for what public purpose, or for what pur-
pose beside private advantage, the party is to be re-
constructed. This, however, is now attempted; and
these political novices consider that fortune has
thrown in their way a capital topic in the slavery-
sugar question. It is "a good point." Undoubtedly it is.
The British people have given a pretty strong proof of their
objection to slavery; and, on the other hand, are by no
means so mad for cheep sugar as for cheap corn. As we said
the other day, theta is not one man in ten who cares
to a penny or two what will be the price of a pound
of sugar ten years hence. The people do not see the
economical—that
.is, the commercial—view of the
question, till it is- explained to them, which it has
not been hitherto. The Protectionists therefore ima-
gine that just now they will get the haft end of the-
argument—riz., the slavery end—and be able to give the
free traders the benefit of the lash. They will also have the
opportunity of purging themselves of that selfishness and in-
humanity with which they have been so freely charged
They will assume no little credit to the "impoverished "
agriculturist for not wishing to cheapen his sugar at the
expense of morality, and for maintaining the principle of
rpersottse.ctiTohnis,whheonweitvearc,tiusanllao-t cat) conflicte
do f wail teh
olaisi s
e.lt private i inte-
rests. t
certainlye
aisrea nvoetry "
atgproeosdentpoignetn.'eraltt- iins
fovreirnae•
dt roure i tnhteartesttheed pi
neotphlee
subject. Nothing can be easier than to state the facts of the
case in a simple and telling form—for example, in Sweden,
the very poorest country of Europe, the peasantry get their
sugar at half the price that we do in England, and use twice as
much. The British labourer, the greatest drudge in the world,
who works early and late, cannot get sugar to sweeten his coffee
and tea, or make any other beverage, or to render eatable the '
sour fruits of his country. How is this? Owing to the very '
insignificant quantity of free sugar besides our own in the
world, the enormous 200 per cent. duty on slave sugar does
in effect create something very near a monopoly for our own
I lantatations. Itt s a virtual monopoly slightly shared with
one or two other producers. The severity of the
present system is chiefly directed against some
of our very bes.t customers in the world, who,
if we took their sugar, would quickly take twice as
much of our own manufactures, and so give twice as much
employment for our poor people. The religious argument,
however, is the great gun of the cause, and very hard worked
it will be. Of course it stands on its own ground, and can-
not be met by any economical argumentation. Will
you care for two or three millions a year, and
coarse sugar at 6d. a pound, when you are patting
down slavery? We will answer. There is a story of a
Frenchman •Iwhhaore whnansteasd.t In likeedtog manner w
oouthune may reply,tinthpaltywekv% p aid 20,000,0004 and by this time as much
again, to put down slavery, and have no inclination to
go on for ever throwing millions after millions into that bot-
tomless abyss. Every man, woman, and child in
these islands wears,—at least we hope 80,—some ar-
ticle or other of slave grown cotton. We take to-
bacco, spirits, indigo, spices, and we know not what
besides, the produce of slavery, without for a moment think-
ing there is any crime in it. Nay, we import immense quan-
tities of slave sugar for exportation • and even the free
sugar we import is only so much taken from the market
of fjaye sugar. Again, we have all klucla 0 doalinga