The Sun.
London, England, 1833-03-20 00:00:00

IRISH CHURCH BILL.

Sir M. W. RIDLEY brought up the report of the
Committee to whom it had been reterred to inquire whe-
ther a proper course had been pursued with respect to t' e
into odui tion of the Bill for the Reform of the Irish Church,
and the report stated that the Bill was a Tax Bill, and
ought to he introduced in a Committee of the whole
House.
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the order of the
day for the eecend reading of the Bi I was disch ,rged, and
the Noble Lurd gave notice that on Monday n at he woo d
move that the House shoul I resolve itself into a Committee
of the whole House on the Temporalities of the Irish
Church.

The other orders of the day having been disposed of,
the House adjourned at three. o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MAECI 19.

The E rl of SHAFTESBURY, in the ah•ence of the
LORD CHANCELLOR, having taken his seat on the Wool-
sack at five o'clock,

The Duke of CUMBERLAND presented a petition
from Hastings against the Beer Act.
Mr. PENDARVES, and other Members of the House of
Commons, brought up a Private Bill.
The Earls of HARROWBY and ESSEX presented
petition• praying for the better observance of the Sabbath.
The Earl of BRECKNOCK presented a petition train
St. Clements' D ne, to the same effect.

The Archbishop of DUBLIN also presented petitions
to the same effect from the parishes of St. John and St.
Peter, Dublin.

The Marquis of WESTNIINSIER said tkat he had
now to present a petition, of which he had given notice,
praying that the Jews may be removed from the disabili-
ties under which they et present labour. It was a ques-
tion of great importance. He knew that formerly
prejudices prevailed against the admission of Catholics
and Dissenters within the pale of the Constitution; hut
he trusted, and indeed was satisfied, that these prejudices
were abated very considerably in both Houses of Par-
liament. He would not enter into any minute detail, but
would speak to the question generally. First, with respect to
the petition. It was signed by 16,000 inhabitants of the
City of London, of all classes and of the highest respec-
tability. T: e petition had also been signed by a great
number of lawyers and clergy men of the Established
Church. It had not ben hawked about the town, or
signed by persons who knew not what they were
signing ; hut great pains had been taken that every
person, before he signed, should know its ct ntents.
After having emancipated Catholics, and after having ad-
mitted Di senters within the pale of the Constitution, he
thought it was impossible for them to refuse to admit the
Jews. Those who professed the Jewish filth were
not likely to do anything to injure the Constitution.
The Jews had been emancipated—they had been
etnancit ated in America, in Holland, and in other coun-
tries, and why should they not enjoy the advantages of
the Constitution in this country? He would appeal to
their Lordships to say whether, since they had been eman-
cipated in those countries, they nad conducted themselves in
any measure to excite the least jealousy or apprehension.
On the contrary, they had distinguished themselves
very highly. He thought their Lordships would not
hesitate to acquiesce in a measure for the total abolition
of all disabilities affecting the Jews in Eneland.—(l-lear,
hear.) He was well aware that there we:e some
who enter ained almost a personal prejudice against
the Jews, and seemed to consider that sc acely any person
could be a Christian who advocated their cause. Why,
had they not been persecuted long enough? And were
the Jews of 'he present century to be excluded from the
advantages and titles which others bad, because they had
done wrong eighteen hundred years ago ?—(Hear, hear,
hear.) Why, we were taught to pray tor those who
despised us, and to love those who persecuted us ; that
was the religion we professed ; and, therefore, could they
say we despised you ? The Noble Lord then made a few
observations on some remarks that bad he, n made upon
the subject by a person calling himself Hyman Hurwitz, a
professor of Hebrew in the London University. He con-
cluded by moving that the petition should he read by the
cl rk at the table.

The Bishop of LONDON said it did not appear to Lim
that the present was tie proper time for discussing the
question. He merdy rose for the purpose of i'enyitig that
conclusions to which the Noble Marquis had come were
good or founded upon fact, namely, that Dissenters arid Ca-
tholics having been admitted into the Legi•lature by any
piriry of reasoning, the Jews should also be introduced.
Though at the time the Tat and Corporation Acts were
passed, the Legislature had ceased to be a strictly Church
of England one—though when the Catholic Relief Bill was
pass,-d, it had ceased to be exclusively a Pri tesrant Legisla-
ture, still in his opinion it bad not ceased to be, ostensibly
at least, a Chri-elan one.

Loid SUFFIELD had a petition to present to the same
effect, signet by 1,000 people, inhabitants of Manchester.
He was aware of the inconvenience there was in discussing
a question on the mere presentation of a petition. H bw-
e,er, it was rendered mint cessary for him to trout& the
1-11;c would than the N .hle Mai quis, with which he entirety agreed.
Howe
cualtd any length after the remarks that Ind fallen
merely state that the petition was signed by up-
tvatd,' of 1,000 people in three days, and that frorn, hid

own knowledge a number of the signature that were at-
tached to it were most respectable.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition frcm:
Derby, in Yorkshire, praying for the immediate abolition
of slavery,

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from the Protestant Dissenters of Bath, praying that the
Jews might be emancipated ; one for instructing the slaves
in the West Indies; and another, from a number of beer
house keepers, praying for an inquiry into the laws which
affected them. They stated that they could not do any
good while left so much at the mercy of the common in-
former, nor while the licensed houses had so much advan-
tage over them.
Earl RODEN and Lord SUFFIELD both came to the table
at once with petitions in their hands. Neither appeared
willing to give way, and both were called upon by their
friends to proceed. At length Earl Roden sat down, when
The Marquis of SALISBURY rose to order. He said
the Earl of Roden was in possession of the House, and
ought to be a I ,wed to proceed.
Lord SIJFFIELD said it would be much for the con-
venience of the House if he were allowed to present his
petition, which he intended to do without remark. He
considered it would be better, for he supposed that the
Noble Lord opposite (Earl Roden) intended to present
petitions connected with the subject he intended that night
to bring before the House. The Noble Lord then pre:
sented a petition, praying for the abolition of slavery.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM presented two petitions to the
same effect.

The Earl of RODEN presented petitions for the better
observance of the Sabbath from Dundee and other places,
and also petitions praying for national education. The
Noble Lord then said that be had felt it his duty a few
evenings since to state that it was his intention to submit
to their consideration the petitions now lying upon the
table on the system of education in Ireland. He felt ex-
tremely anxious to bring before that House a subject
which appeared to him of so great importance. The
present plan had been introduced by his Maj.sty's Mi-
nisters for the purpose, as they stated, of the be-
nefit of all classes, and all people of his hlsjes-
ty a subjects in Ireland. He thought he should be
able to prove to their Lordships that this system was not
adopted for all classes, but had an exclusive tend
ney—
was one which was adopted only for a particular class of
the people. He must, however, refer their Lordships, in
the first instance, to the previous system, which had been
io operation in Ireland before the present one. It had
been in operation from 1816 to 1831, and was called the
Koldare-street Society. It received annual grants from
Parliament, and lie would say, that it had greatly 'woe-
fitted the different individuals for whom it was formed,
and, in his opinion, had wnrked well. Their Lordships
would remember that in 1831, his Majesty's Government
stated it to be their opinion that this system was too ex
elusive, and that it was necessary to change it altogether, in
order to establish one that would embrace all classes of .he
cm o,m, nn
tni y. He t
occasion,
referandhe thought
theo w
tohrds of
that he
11r
should
u Stan-
leyldbe
able to k bow that the system was not what it ought to he.
Timis Kildare-street Society had 1,621 schools, and up-
wards of 157,000 scholars, of which a great majority were
Catholics. But one great objection was urged against this
Society's plan, viz., the use to the Scriptures unmutilated.
This was not an objectiou of the people, but of the Catholic
priests, and it was upon their representations that his Ma-
jesty's Government last year established the present plan
a ;though strongly petitioned against from ail parts of the
kingdom. Those petitions were charged as factious and
bigoted, but what they anticipated had been too unhappily
verified. The present system never would combine the
education of both Cataolies and Protestants, for it was
itnpossible Protestants could lei their children go to
schools in nunneries and monasteries, and other places
u-eit for teaching the Catholic religion. The Board
established for the new system, had given doable and
sometimes treble, salaries to some of the schoolmasters,
compared with what they received from the Kildare-street
Society, in order to give an appearance of popularity to
the new system by the master's taking part in it. The
first name on the public list was, the teacher of the Men-
dieity Society, 1001., but he hail been told by Mr. Scott,
toe barrister, a member of the Mendicity Society, that an
application was made to the Board for assistance, but no
assistance had been received. The next sum on tt.e list
was 251. for the Free School of Carlow, a purely R .n
Catholic school, at which there was not a single Protestant.
The Carlow Female Seine,' is a nunnery, and nothing but
Catholicism taught, and yet allowance is made to it. The
le tars on tae authority tot which he stated these facts, he
was ready to stow any Noble Lord. The next was
201. to a nunnery at Clookilty. Anot er to Barrow,
where there were 100 children, only tree of whom were
Protestants. Another of 301 to a school at Ennis, kept
by persons in the order of monks, who were fast spreading
through the county. That school, be it remembered was
set up in opposition to the Protestant school in the
place.—(The Noble Earl read an extract of a letter from
M aryboroueh, stating that about twenty Protestants had
applied to the Board for a grant of money, at the urgent
request of the priest, and that one of them, who was a
watchmaker, had dec'ared his life would tie in danger had
he refused to sign it.) He next mentioned a grant of 50/.
to Escar school, where an altar was erected in the midst
of the school ; mass said at 9 in the morning ; at 12,
spiritual instruction ; at 3, the catechism ; and at 4,
prayers and sermons prescribed by the friars. He next
proceeded to enumerate plates, to the amount of 49, where
schools, purely Catholic, had been established, and re-
ceived the Government grant, and where the Catholic
religion was taught to the children. These, he
thought, formed strong grounds for his assertion that
the new system had failed in uniting all classes. Most
of the applications were from Catholic priests, there
being 209 from clergymen of the Catholic faith, and
ouly twenty-eight from Protestant clergymen and several
of these were Socinians or Dissenters. When he recol-
lected the resolution come to by the Catholic Bishops in
1826, he was fully convinced that application would not
be made by that class on bona fide grounds, and that the
regulations of the Board would be evaded. That resolu-
tion declared that they would exert themselves to the
utmost to protect the Catholic; that when the majority
of scholars in any school were Catholic, the master should
be Catholic ; and when the Catholic formed the minority
there should be a Catholic assistant. That the school-
master should be appointed on the recommendation of the
Catholic Bishop, and he removable on the representation
of such Bishop. The first effect of such a system was
giving up the children into the hands of the Catholic
clergy ; and the next was, that Protestants could never
form members of a community establishod on such a sys-
tem). That was in fact striking at the root of the Pro-
testant religion, the mainstay against the encroachments
of false religion. It was quite impossible that an united
system of education could be formed. There were no
common grounds on which they could agree; and he
was sure no good result would follow from any plan
which did not recognise the unrestricted and uninutilated
use of the Scriptures.—(Hear, hear.) That was the
system of the Kildare-street Society, by which so many
schools had been established and prospered so long. It
was some consolation, however, that the feeling of the
great majority of the people of England, Scotland, and
Ireland were in favour of those who had from the begin-
ring opposed the system ; and though they bad failed in
resisting it, still it was a consolation to think that the
public voice never sounded louder, and the public pulse
never beat higher on the sutijecs than it did at that mo•
ment. The petitions of the people had not only been
neglrcted, but the petitioners had been calumniated, not-
withstanding that the prelates and clergy did their duty ;
for out of the 22 Irish Bishops, 17 were opposed to the
measure, and resoluticne to that effect bad been agreed to
by them. The Synod of Ulster, a body of men not to
be surpassed in their zeal for true and undefiled religion,
were also opposed to it, and passed strong resole hint.
Toe Methodists did the same—the clergy in Armagh,
Dublin, &c., bad opposed, and even Grand Juries
had protested against it. It was not Ireland only,
however, that rose up against it, but Great Britain
also. M my other Prelates of the Established Church,
whose sentiments, as delivered from that Bench, did
honour to their hearts and understanding, had spoken
against it. got Great Britain only, but Scotland, also
raised her voice. Scotland, where the Bible was so loved
that the people would rather lose their lives than psrt
with it, had not been backward in expressing her feel-
ings on the occasion; and an illustrious individual, Dr.
Chalmers, had expressed himself to the following effect:—
That
the proposed system of education was the first at-
tempt since the Reformation to interfere with the Scrip-
tures by a legislative enactment, and that be could not
approve of a plan which kept the Scriptures out of the
hands of children—those Scriptures which formed the
foundation of t rue religion. The Kilatereastreet Society
was going on as favourably as it could, till Mr. Stanley
thought proper to introduce a new system to favour the
Catholic hierarchy. The Roman Catholic hierarchy
were alarmed at the progress of this Society ; they
were alarmed at the knowledge of the Scriptures which
the children attained, and they entered into a corre-
spondence with the Noble Earl at the head of the Go-
vernment, the result of which was this education system
—this badge of Rornanisru—this cage, which contained,
he would nut say unclean, bait many-coloured birds. The
Roman Catholics attended the schools; the children did
not refuse, nor did their parents refuse, but the Catholic
clergy opposed it, and to these clergy the Gmriiment

ithosnceehh.t ee dwr
y, a asmnednawd
contrivedohpd
ot
led the
nn
.d
cherishedoe fwa crowds
nefarious ut os oe
Ypbapteyosinet hteohsfee tedp-laeyure:gyt,,in—otns
due to the clergy, and when resistance was made, covered
the cou,,try with blood.—(Hear, hear.) When the Minis-
term of the Crown consented to give up truth for errar—
when they consented to give up the usa of the Scriptures,
so lone the safeguard of the country, and bow down to it
system of error in hopes of gaining to their side the eteat
body of the Catholic clergy, they were scattily mistaken.
They ought to have set their faces against he system at
first, if they were convinced of its error ; but they yielded
in order to pacify those men who were opposed to the un-
mutilated use of the Scriptures. They were mistaken in
thinking they had gained them to their ride. The more
concessions are male, the more will their demands rise
here, and the appetite would go on increasing till the
Romish religion had raised itself to the highest pitch, and
the Protestant Church was trampled in the dust. GOD
forbid that he should see that day when a religion, net
only hostile to Protestatrisin, but to real liberty, should
prevail in the land. He had seen the tvtanny and the
persecution which his poor Roman Catholic countrymen
suffered, and had done all that his influence as a landlord
and an inhabitant enabled him t.. do to ameliorate tear
condition. He begged pardon for speaking of himself,
hut he had taken those measure, which he knew to be
the only means of seeuring their welfare and happiness—
namely, by the distaibution of that untnut laced word
which he had been led to believe and ktiew was able
to make them wise to salvation. What were the effects
of those efforts it was not for him now to inquire, but
he felt, and he was sure their Lordships would agree with
him in feeling, that it was impossible for private exere
tions to compete with public means and public e.
If the Noble Earl and his Majesty's ?Ministers were de-
termined to establish the Rowan Catholic rm ligi.in in
Ireland, which the signs of the times led him to sup.
pose was an object n•it altogether out of their view—if
they were determined to accomplish that object by the
spoliation of the Protest•nt Church—by the destruction
of ten bishoprics—and by the payment of the Roman
Catholic Clergy, which, he believed, they contemplated at
a future time, and perhaps out of the proceeds of this
very plunder--(Hear, hear)—but, above all, if they .sere
determined by this system of education to deny the Scrip
tures to the people of Ireland, on their heads be the sin—
on their heads be the awful respons,bility—(Hear, hear.)
He feared lie had detained their Lordships too long ; but
in the name of all those who were interested in the
welfare of the Established Church and the Prot-stant
ligion—in the nausea of the Protestants of Ireland, he
called for the protection of their Lordship. The Pro-
testants had been the English garrison in Ireland
since the time of Henry VIII. They had been true to the
trust reposed in them—they had been faithful to the last
axtrt mitt'. They had stood in the breach, and many c(
them had fallen in it. He felt it as no small ptiviltge
that he should be permitted to be their advocate in that
House, or fn any other place, or to raise his humble voice
in their behalf. He was enlisted in one common cause
with them, and he trusted that with them he should
stand or fall. He implored their Lordships to consider
the petitions which he had this day laid on their table,
and to bear in mind aheir contents, which wmre so im-
portant to the people of Ireland and to their children,
He knew not what line of conduct his M ijesty's Govern,
ment might next think fit to pu sue; but he trusted that
every Noble Lord in that H ,use would exert himself to
prevent the downfall of the Church in Ireland ; and he
implored the Not Lords on his side of the H use not to
be absent in the hour of need, but to be ready at their
pests, and to answer " Content," or " Not content," to
whatever measures might he proposed.—(Hear.) It
it was not the object of his 1114jus y's Ministers to de-
troy the Protestant religion in Ireland, he implored
them to discontinue this plan for propagating the Romans
Catholic religion in that country. Their system was not
a system which Protestants attached to their religion could
conscientiously uphold. If his Majesty's Ministers were
nut strong enough, or were not willing to ?mein,' by the
truth, he only asktd them to withdraw from the Educe-
tion Societies all public grants, and to leave the who le
concern in the hands of those who were willing to under-
take it—who would giue up their time, their money, and
their influence to uphold and support that which teal
knew would benefit the country. He implored his Mom
jesty's Ministers to spare the country the expense as well
as the diserace, of continuing that system; and he trusted
he should never see a Prcres ant Government, British
Peers, and a British Parliament, unite with a R iman
Catholic Priesthood to deprive any portion of the inhabi-
tants of this empire of the immutable word of God ; but
that they would he induced to liven to the time and
anxious desire of these wins wished to see their country
don ish, and the empire continue united. He moved that
the petitions be laid on the table.

The Archbishop of DUBLIN observed that it seemed
as if he were placed on his trial in consequence of his
intimate connection with the Board of Education in Ire-
land. He was to be tried, it appeared, not only for an
attachment to Romanism, but also for having, in con-
junction with his colleagues, been guilty of malverao ion
in the management of the public money ; for the Natile
Earl had not merely charged them with being lavish in
its use, but had accused them of perverting it to purposes
of bribery and corruption. As he (the Archbishop of
Dublin) was not much used to address assemblies like
the present, he hopiel their Lordship would allow
for the difficulties of his situation. (Hear, hear,
hear.) He had been invited by his Majesty's Mini-
sters to take a part in the Board of E location in Ire
land, and, after making due inquiry on the sulij e-,
he had consented to do so for the good, as he con-
ceived, of the country. To him it app,ared that the
plans proposed by his Majesty's Ministers were the hest
that could be adopted. It was diffieult to ascertain the
exact facts of the case. He was told one thing by one
party, and another by another. Some asserted that the
Irish Schools were making progress; others that they were
very much checked in their progress. He therefore found
himself under the necessity of collecting facts fur himself.
He did not wish to impute to those who imptuned his
conduct any wilful deviation from truth ; no doubt they
thought their supposition with respect to him was true ;
but be had never been connected with any party. All
who knew his life knew that he had never connected hits
self with any party He was ready to support this mea-
sure of his Majesty's Ministers, if he thought it beneficial,
but not otherwise. He did not mean to say that there
was any political turpitude in being attached to a party ;
but that was the very reason why he put a disclaimer
upon the subject—a character which did an: defend itself
was not worth defending. He had seen, the Right Rev.
Prelate continued, several schools in which none of the
clamours complained of were heard ; and he had conver-
sations with different persons about the nature of the com-
plaints in the other schools. Some objected against Cr.
tholics being educated in their own creed—some against
Protestants being so educated : and some objected against
educating either class. It scented, therefore, to him a
right system to leave a certain portion of each week for
the Minister of each respective denomination to educate
the children belonging to his flock. He regretted that
such dissensions should exist in Ireland ; but they
did exist, and it was necessary to meet the evil
somehow, and to take care that in stopping the tide from
flowing one way, they did not set it flowing another.
Their Lordships had only decided that the system ought
to be tried. He would call upon them, therefore, to give
it a sufficiently long trial. It had been complaiued (and
!,e did not mean to say that the complaint was not just)
that the Kildare-street Society had not bad a sufficient
trial ; vet for a good many years it had had inspectors
of its own, model schools, and books compiled, collected,
and composed for its purposes. It had had masters and
mistresses who were brought up under its own superin-
tendence. The masters and mistresses now had been en-
tirely educated under the establishment. Now model
school', in which the teachers them-elves were to be edu-
cated for the purposes of tuition, were of the very first
importance, in any establishment of the kind. But the
model school for boys is the Merrion-square establish-
ment was only opened yesterday ; and the model school
for girls would not be opened till after Easter. It could
not, therefore, be said that the system had had anything
like a fair trial. It was ridiculous to speak of calling foe
accounts relative to the progress of the schools when this
essential part of the establishment had only been com-
menced yesterday, and when the whole had only been
in operation for a year. That would be acting like a child
that digs up the seeds which he has sown to see whether
they are growing ; but if an adult did so, there would be
some reason to suspect that he did not intend them to
grow.—(Hear, hear.) The secretaries ought nut
to be perpetually put out of the line of their duties in
eider to make up returns, which occupied a considerable
time that ought to be devoted to objects connected with
t;ie institution. The Board consisted of persons who hail
other occupations, which rendered it impossible for them,
if they possessed double the strength and diligence of or-
dinary men, to perform the tasks sought to be imposed
upon them. There had been several hundred applications
for the establishment of schools which they had not bad
time fully to consider, though they had ext-rted their ut •
most diligence to forward the inquiries necessary,___ before
these applications could be acceded to. Wit bregard to
the expenditure, all hr could • y was, that they hid been
It could not be expected that
evrupulously economita•
he could bear in mind all the cases wnich had come before
the Board, and he could not remember the 49.cmes &l.

bided to I y the Noble Lord (Roden). It he were per- '
=idea to make inquiries, he had no doubt but that he
should Ire able to show that the same principle which had
reeulated the conduet of the Board eeneral'y had regu-
lated them in these case.. But supposing the case to he
as it was mated, still there were only forty-nine case.; out
of 497 (scarcely one tenth part) compl tined of. All he
could say was, that they had exerted every care and pates
to ermine, their busine.s in the most economical and the
most effectual m inner, and an this in the midst of a sys.
tem of persecution and delusion which would have been
ennuith to deter mo-t men from proceeding.; Net only the
commissioners ,end agents of the institution, hut thnse who
sent the it children to the rich, obi had been designated as
infide's, apostates. everythine opprebriens that language
could supply- They dared not publish their names be-
cause their eh .ranters were liahle to a species of moral
assassination. One of the n noxious parties said he thought
the burninee in the smith of Ireland not worse than the
pets cntion. mn recount of these schools in ti e north ; and
he mentioned one or more Preehyterien congregations
which h ,n set seainst their nasto4 (as we understood).
and had heen ir-hived to insult t em in the streets. It
had also h-en nhjec ed to the Society that t' ey had used
comptilsisn in the establishment of come se) no'‘ ; but he
esu'd as-ore 'twit Lerdships thst no feree hail ever been
«mrd Ned for,her than this—they i ad told the patties. here
is ni"fd'y : if sou a ish to lists Nike it ; /me
don't take it if tau ,isn't ike it. They had slso been te'd
t' at Preteseinos were to h • depriv. d efthe n•eef t e B
For hi part he did net wish to a rrip-1 an, one it, teed
the Bible. To do so would neither he of any service to
relieion, nor crtnsis•ent with the proper spirit of Chris•
tianity ; het they had made it imperative in sll their
schools, that a certain portion ef the week shotild b, set
apart for religions instruction—one day, he be!ieverl, be-
sides Sunday. Those who had any scruple against such
instruction, had it in their power to withdraw themselvis ;
and any clereymen in the neighbourhood might appoint a
day in the week in which the children of his own deno-
mination might read nothing hut the Scriptures, or the
Homilies of the Church. The children real the Bible
one bent a-day for five days in the week, and the other
two days they read nothing but the Bible. He NI ould ask
how many of these children of the parties—how many of
t',emselves read the Bible so it uch ? He would ask
whether such instruction as that contemplated by
the institution were given ? These children would
know more of the Bible than under most
other systems. At the same he would not deny that
in many cases the instruction was not given, because the
clergy in the respective neighbourhoods, whose duty it
would have been to carry the intentions of the institution
into effect, had refus.d to give instructions to any of the
children in these schools. What right then had they to
complain of the effects of their own wrong ? De they
dread contamination front going into the schools ? If the
Apostles heti never gone into a Jewish synagogue, how
would the Christian religion have been promulgated? It
St. Paul had never preached the Gospel upon the hill of
Nay, none of us, perhaps, would ever have heard of it.
The Benevolent Society of St. Patrick, which had been
established for fifty years, had, as one of its principal re-
gulations, an order to the teachers to tee that the chil-
dren should attend to the:r religious duties—Protestants
and Catholics, according to their respective ereeds—their
principles extending to all. As to the mutilation of the
Scriptures, he had always understood that a mutilation
was when a work was given as complete, while it was
really deficient ; but certainly the term could not be ap-
plied to such a work as that of Mrs. Trimmer on the
Bible. He could not go through all the accusations daily
brought forward against the Commissioners, and himself
in particular, in the Dublin newspapers. The greater
part of them he had not seen ; for lie d.d not read them,
and should not know any thing of them unless a friend
should happen to tell him of them. For as hat had come
tin& r his notice, he could say that five or six libels appeared
in these prints every week. A system of terrorism was
regularly acted neon. With regard to falsehoods stated in
these prints, there were one or two every day. In one
else it had been said, that signatures of clergymen to ap-
plieetions for the establishment of a school had been ob-
tained by fraud and delusion. He hid no doubt that
many cases of that nature may have occurred, for fraud
and delusion were not peculiar to any one part of Ire-
land. One case had been mentioned at a meeting in
Dubin, and had excited great indignation. It was that
of a clergyman, who was stated to have been carried
away to some place privately, and there entrapped to sign
a paper for introducing a schstol into his parish ; but on
being told by his friends what a wicked act he had been
guilty of, he retracted his signature. He trusted that no
one who knew him could believe that such a thing ever
happened, or that he could be guilty of kidnapping a
clergyman for any such purposes. The assertion, how-
ever, had been sufficiently contradicted by the defiance
which had been published to the authors of the calumny,
challenging them to bring proof—a d, fiance which they
hail never dared to answer. He knew that in many cases
signatures hail been retracted, and the Commissioners
bad been blamed because the grants had not been im-
mediately withdrawn. They had always in such cases
considered the signatures as if they had never existed ;
but it frequently happened that there were other
signatures to the application which the society consi-
dered sufficient, and in that case they did not withdraw
the grants. Ile only recollected two cases of clergy-
men who retracted their eignwores. One of them, alter
signing his application, had been persuaded to withdraw
it by a daughter-in law, who intimated his wish to the
Boats'. They refuse'( to consider it will drawn, until h.
should notify it to 'hem Lin self. This be did net do till
a month after, and his signature was then withdr.wn.
Another case was that of a rector, who, in his (the Arch.
hint op of Dublin's) presence, had been asked by his
curate whether he should make an application for such a
school ? The rector answered, certainly ; but was after•
wards induced to change his determination. With respect
to tie gatblir g t.f ti e extracts, it might with equal pro-
priety h., said that the Epistles were garbled, as they were
published separately. Thee was no possibility of finding
any trensl .6,41 the Bible which would suit Catholics
and Protestants; for even the Drury Bible—ths one trans-
lated f om the Cathelic authorized version—'he Vulgate—
was net awls, rized by that Church. The Apocrypha also
creased diffieuldes, inasmuch as it was not admitted into
the Proses ant cephs of d e Scriptu though it turned
one of the feundatiens of the Remelt Catholic faith
There was, then fest, no rout-e !eq. but to aiopt some
8.4 e, ti, n which tv,.tild tee equally unet jeetionelde
both parties. that aelec ion were so made, a-
te elliiiiit a garbled view of tl e dectrinet of the Proteetat.•
Church—if it were so frig rued as to favniir the tenets .
Roman Catholic Church, it never could have been ap-
prmed of by the members to the Prirestimt urch, wh,
here among the Coornu.i.sionet s. The different creeds of
England. Ireland, and Scotland, had their representatives
in that Commission, end it was not likely that they would
show any peculiar favour to the Roman Catholics. Bur
their accusers did not wait till they saw what the nature
of the selection would be. They chose rather to argue
upon the very improbable assumption, that a Cotnmission
so constituted would produce a garbled selection from the
Bible, and upon that assumption they bounded the outcry
raised against these schools. if they had waited till they
bad seen the selection, and had found that it was liable to
the objections which they anticipated, then would be the
time for staring their exceptions to it. He had only just
received the proof sheets from the printer, and he %sae
therefore able to speak with certainty respecting the accu-
sations which had been brought against the selection.
One of these was founded on the supposition that there
were some passages selected in such a way as appeared to
sanction the worship of the Virgin Mary ; whereas tbere
was not one word which could bear that interpretation.
A second objection was, that the whole of the selection
from the New Testament was confined to one half-sheet.
Now, that half sheet consisted of that mutilation of the
Scriptures called the Gospel of St. Luke. It was also said,
that another passage, which in our Bible is, " Repent,
and be baptized, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand,"
the word " repent" had been changed into "do penance."
was, therefore, argued that the alteration tended to
overthrow the whole Scripture doctrine of repentance;
and certainly any thing which could have that effect
-would, in hii opinion, be open to the remarks of the op-
posers of these schools, which, in such a case, would not
be mole severe than just. Certainly, if any discredit had
been ithed upon the important doctrine of repentance, he
should he the last man to support the selection. There
was one circumstance, however, which the parties who
made these assertions might probably think 01 little im-
portancel but which he was sure would be of some weight
with their Lordship, and that was, that the assertion was
entitely destitute of truth.—(Hear.) He pledged himself
to their Lordships, on his honour, that he • had never in
the slightest shape proposed the alteration of that passage
to the Board. It good as it was in the authorized
version, "Repent ye, for the Kingdom of Heaven ie "at
hand !" Indeed it was observed that by letting :the
passage stand in this shape, it would be a "means of
avoiding disputes, for though the protestant would
object to doing penance,
both Catholic and Protestant
would agree in the necessity of repentance. He was fully
sensible of the importance of this passage, and he hoped
that those who had taken part in the propagation of so
slanderous a report, would immediately and publicly testify
their repentance of it.—(Cheers.) This was a specimen,
and no more than a specimen of the reports which had
been circulated from one end of the kingdom to the other

—these were the engines which were made use of to divert
and delude the people—hut he appealed to their Lordships
whether this could le called giving the plan a fair trial.—
( Hear.) All those who endeavouted to aid in the intro-
duction of this system, lad met the most severe proaecu-
tr ,n—their motives had been assailed, and their characters
hunted down. This was the species of Scriptural muti-
lation to which he of jested—that practical mutilation of
the Scriptures which made men resist that important pre-
cept, " Do as you is ould wish to be done by."—( Hear,
hear.) Nor had this atitation been confined to Ireland.
In England—in London, meetings had been held at a place
—Exeter Hall, he believed it was called ; at Bath, Liver-
pool, and other towns. But how were these meetings
got up? They were founded upon a system—the exc'u-
sion of all persons who did not come there prepared to
oppose the measures,—They were told that the Protestants
were to be excluded from seeing the Bible, and they ex-
pressed an earnest desire that that Bible should not be
taken away from the people of Ireland—a desire
in which he most heartily concurred. They were told
that the children in Ireland were to he delivered over to
the Catholic Priesthood whether they would or not; and
many other gross misstatements were made, they having
previously taken care to exclude all possibility of contra-
diction. But why, I e asked, did they not give the people
in oppertunity of fairly exercising their judgment?
Why did they lead them away by delusion ? Why resort,
as they had done to persecution and intimidation ?
(Chie,s.) He was ready to pledge himself—he was
ready to give a pledge on behalf of his colleagues—that
bing ,f the kind should ever be exercised in favour of
the system. and he called on those opposed to it to exert
tl etnselvea in a similar manner, and then they might he
enabled to obtain a fair trial of the workings of the
fu stern ; but it was utterly impos•ible to say whether the
experiment would succeed, much less had they any right
to say it had not succeeded when it had not yet been tried.
It had not yet been tried as many months are the Kildare-
, place Sineety had existed years, and yet they were told
that the Kildare place Society had not yet received a fair
trial. It was absurd, therefore, to say that the new
system hod been sufficiently tried.—(Hear, hear.) He
was compelled to call on their Lordships to take some-
thing on his assertion, which he could but dared not
prove, lest he should sacrifice the comfort, peace, and
safety of sonic highly deserving and respectable indivi-
duals. He pledged himself that there were many clergy-
men, both Protestant arid Presbyterian, who approved of
this system, hut who dared not support it for fear of corn-
ing
in collision with their neighbours and fri. rids where
they resided. They dared not expose themselves to the cla-
mour that would be raised against them, or encounter the
obloquy and abuse which was sure to be poured on them
Some clergymen had personally, but privately, communi-
cated this to him, whose names, of course, he could not
betray. Others had written to the same effect, and in
some cases they bad refused to support the system, although
they strongly approved of it, because the Bishop of the
diocese had signed a paper against it—they did not like to
have their names in print opposed to their respective
Bishops. He hoped that all persons who wished to enjoy
true liberty, and the unmolested right of expressing their
sentiments according to their own conscience, would exert
themselves to put an end to that system of intimidation
and agitation which was kept up in Ireland. Agitation he
said it was—for what was it but agitation to go about
through every parish in Ireland, setting not only Ca-
tholics against Protestants, but Protestants against
each other, and denouncing all the supporters of the
national system of education as idolators, atheists,
apo-tati s, in short, heaping upon them almost every
term of abuse which the language supplied.—(Cheers.)
Was it right, then, lie would ask, to reproach his Majesty's
Ministers with consequences brought on by the very mis-
representations and calumnies with which they were as-
sailed? He hoped they would no longer attempt to bias
the sentiments of the people by the use of violent language
or insulting epithets lithe system was bad—speak of it
as it was—and let it stand or fall upon its real merits. In
conclusion, he would call the attention of their Lordships
to this point. He did not deprecate any opposition which
was made to this measure on his own account, or on that
of his I rother Commissioners. It was for the sake of Ire-
land—(Hear)—for the sake of that unfortunate country
—for whose welfare he was ready to undergo even more
slander and obloquy than lie had yet been exposed to. For
the sake of Ireland, he appealed to their Lordships to let
this system have a fair, uninterrupted trial; and then let
them come to a decision with calmness and Christian
temper. For himself, he was ready to make every sacri-
fice, even that of life itself, to effect the moral regeneration
of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
The Bishop of EXETER complimented the Most Rev.
Prelate on the very able speech which he had just made, and
had no doubt that he had been actuated by the best and
purest motives. That Most Rev. Prelate had said that
there were three modes of treating the question of educa-
tion in Ireland : either to educate the Roman Catholics
and Protestants together—to educate them separately—or
to educate them not at all. The Right Rev. Prelate seemed
to assume that the Irish were less educated than the people
of this country—now the fact was the contrary ; nor did he
say this without due grounds ; he had high testimony, that
of the Archbishop of Cashel, given before the Commis-
sion on Irish Education in 1824. That Prelate sail, that
even in Tipperary he found the people more educated than
is England. He did not, however, mean to say they were
better educated ; lint the fact was, there were more who
could read and write in Ireland than in England. Ti.
great question, however, was the best subject matter for
(location. Their Lordships hsit been told that this sys
tem had been condeinned before it hail been tried, and that
a large majority of that House had last year decided thatit
should receive a trial, and if they put an end to it in its pre
sent state they would be stultifying themselves, or something
to a similar effect. He did not know how far the voice of
a previous majority was to bind them on the present occa-
sion ; but, if lie remembered rightly, the majority was for
the motion then brought forward.—( Hear.) It was said
that the system was condemned without being tried ; but
he contended that no trial could ever prove its propriety or
ffiracy, since it was not founded on the principles of truth
and Protestantism. He said it was contrary to these
principles, because Pro estant education was founded on
this, that the children should have a knowledge of the
Holy Bible.—(Heir, hear ) They were told that abun-
dant opportunities would be afforded of giving Scriptural
instruction to the children in the intermissions of school
hours; but he would ask with what recommendation
-itch instrs ...slots could come to those children, who
mild regard it as a deprivation of their I ours of re-
rieation snit sport? There was another fact con
nested with this part hf the subject which hail not
been take. into consideration ; the parishes in Ireland
were eo large, except in the north, where the evils of this
mode of education would be the least felt, that they tnigt t
reasotiahly expect each parish would coot in several schools
at some distance from each other, tendering it physically
impossible fir the pastor to give the children anything like
that systematic scriptural education which was all essen-
tial. With regard to the extracts from the sacred Scrip-
tures, the Most Rev. Prelate had complained of the state-
ments that extracts from the Scriptures would never be
rnade but in a garbled form, or, at least, that none but
such garbled extracts would be accepted by the Roman
Catholics; and he added, that it had been made matter of
accusation against the Roman Cutholics that they permitted
their children to read even such extracts. He was quite
sure that the Most Rev. Prelate would net willingly suffer
any garbled extracts to be promulgated ; but the complaint
made was, that the extracts selected did riot present a fair
specimen of Scripture properly so called. Why did be -ay
this? Not from want of charity, but from excess of charity.
He perceived the Noble Earl (Grey) lift d up his eyes ..t
this expression. He felt much obliged for the attention he
was paying; and he would tell the Noble Earl that it arose
from this much charity towards Roman C itholica that he
believed them when they spoke upon their oaths. The Ro-
man Catholic Prelates had sworn that, consistently with
their duty and the dictates of their conscience, they would
not consent that any of their children should be present at
the reading of any portion of Scripture taken from a ver-
sion not their own. That was the evidence they had given
before a Commission of Inquiry. The Most Rev. Prolate
had produced, with a tone of triumph, a volume of ex
tray ts, which he said was not garbled. Now, the Roman
Catholic said, that he would not permit an unauthorized
version to be used in schools ; and yet he found they had
given their consent to the reading of at least a very large
portion of it. It was said that this was a specimen of their
liberality. True, they were liberal ; so liberal, indeed, that
they seemed to have forgotten what they had previously
sworn to. He also found that they had been, particularly
in relation to one passage—the only passage, indeed, of
great importance us relating to the distinctive difference
between the doctrines of the Church of England and the
Church of Rome, and where the language of their own
version was departed from—to take care that a note should
he appended, explaining their peculiar view of the passage'
He-then proceeded to call the attention of the House to the
note, which he said clearly contained an allusion to the
Virgin Mary. He then alluded to the well-known sen-
tence_." It shall crush thy head," &c. ; and the reference
111 the note to ipso, as the original, i. e., she (the woman)
shall crush," &c., which was contended by the Roman
Catholics to allude to the Virgin Mary. And this was a
volume of extracts to be read in Protestant schools. in a
bock recommended to the perusal of the scholars by the
Board of Education, it was held to be indifferent with re-
gard to redemption, whether the head of the serpent was

to be crushed by the woman or Jesus Christ, or whether
Jesus Christ did it fir himself ; so it was described in a
book adopted by the Board.—(Hear.)
The Archbishop of DUBLIN—Not so ; only tolerated
for the present.
The Bishop of EXETER was about to resume, but
complained of some interruption or inattention from the
Ministerial Bench.
The Duke of RICHMOND rose to order, and com.
plained rather warmly that the Right Rev. Prelate never
ruse in that House without complaining of interruption or
inattention from that Bench, though the greatest attention
was uniformly paid him.
The Bishop of EXETER said that the Most Rev.
Prelate had denied any intention to deliver over the chil.
dren in Ireland into the hands of the Catholic priesthood.
He was not surprised at the view which he had taken of
it, but referred to a letter and speech of its author, the
Right Hon. the Chief Secretary fur Ireland, to show that
the object of its author was political, and not religious ;
and by restoring the influence of the Roman Catholic
clergy, to secure a more peaceable and willing obedience
on the part of the peasantry to the laws. Yes, the AB.
niters sought to give additional powers to those who said
'hat they could not, without sin, have recourse to the
Bible ; and therefore they certainly were liable to the im-
putation of joining with the Roman Catholic clergy to
rake away the Bible from the Protestants of Irel
(Oh, oh, cheers, arid counter cheers.) He scarcely knew
how to understand that cheer ; but he could not consider
such a design to t.e Consistent with Christi inity, whether
'hey acted ti;orr it or nor. It was rather remarkable, that
in the returns laid upon the table the answer to a return
moved for by the Noble Earl opposite, as to the numbers
of Rama❑ Catholic and Protestant children attending the
school, was to this effect—that tiny could not give
the returns of their respective numbers, as their atten-
tion had been iiirected to the extensio❑ of educatisin,
without distinction of class or sect ; thus taking away
trim them the means of ascertaining whether the ex-
periment hail succeeded or not.—(Hear, hear.) He then
ref, rred to the extracts of the Commandments, as pub-
lished under the sanction of the Board. In the second
Commandment, the words "graven thing" for graven
image—and the words " bow down to" were omitted—
ati cloaking and hiding that idolatry which was the
scandal of the Rornish C .urch. This was still worse, as
it Was admitted by Mr. Ca; lisle that the word in the ori-
ginal was " bow down to." And what must be the eff ct
of this sort of half sanction, accotnpaniid by the circuin-
stance that these children mus, be constantly in the habit
itnissirig toe per:in-mance of those ceremonies so com-
mon among the R.irnan Catholics, riot so repugnant to
the principles of all true Protestants. (The Right
Rev. Prelate then proceeded to read several passages
troin the Catechism of the Council of Trent, and
fiom the works of writers who were esteemed high
authorities on maters of Catholic faith and discipline,
for the purpose of showing that which he believed would
not be disputed, namely, that Roman Catholics were
instructed to consider all who differed from them
as heretics and schismatics, and incapable of becoming
inheritors of the Kingdom of Christ.) From data such
as these notning could be more evident than that it would
be impossible to devise a system of ins ruction which
should satisfy the wants and the wishes of a community
composed, as that of Ireland was, of persons of diffeient
and hostile creeds. If he might be permitted to call the
attention of the House to the instructions which Roman
Catholic children had received recently, and that which
had been inculcated upon them formerly, he should show
that until very lately they had been taught that they were
bound to pay tithes, but now they were informed that they
were merely bound to support their pastors. That was
the language at present used ; but something very different
was formerly the language used. One of their Catechisms
contained thes,. lines :
" Receive you about great Easter day,
And to his Church neglect not tithes to pay."
These sentiments were no longer urged upon the people as
fir as the m atter of tithes was concerned ; all that now
was required at their hands was to support their pastors
and defray the expenses attendant upon the offices of reli-
gion, without prescribing to them the particular mode in
which those expenses were to be met. Upon all these
grounds he should not hesitate to say, that beforehand any
one might be able to prophesy that it could ❑ot succeed;
and, looking to the result, he should sty that that result
would have fully warranted what ought naturally to have
been anticipated. The scheme, unquestionabiy, had been
a signal failure, and he believed there was no modification
of it that could render it truly a scheme of national edu-
cation.

The Archbishop of DUBLIN wished to explain. It
was true some schools under the Commissioners bad been
held in places of Roman Catholic worship, but that was
expressly in opposition to their recent regulations—they
did not allow any new schools to be held in any place of
worship whatever, and where they found their grants had
been applied to schools held in places of worship, they
either withdrew those grants, or took measures for causing
a building to be erected so as to prevent the continuance
of the practice of holding schools in places of public wor-
ship. The number which came within the description he
had been giving did not amount to more than four or five
out of 500, and for all those separate buildings were now
in progress.
The Bishop of BRISTOL concurred generally in the
view taken of the question by the Right Rev. Prelate near
him (the Bishop of Exeter), and he especially assented to
the important truth, that the scheme of education pursued
by the Government in Ireland had proved a complete fai
lure. It was said there was no intention of leaving out
any particular point of the Protestant translation ; but
many—indeed most of them—had been left nut altoge-
ther; and the only one not entirely otnitt,d had been al-
tered—he meant the word Shiloh, which had been alto-
gether changed.
Lord PLUNKET was perfectly convinced of the since-
rity of the Right Rev. Prelate who had recently addressed them,
and in answer to whose speech he should make a few remarks.
The Right Rev. Prelate was, no doubt, impressed with the sane.
tity of the object he had in view; but in adopting means to
secure it, he should at the same time have taken care not to
transgress the bounds of that charity which he expected from
others. Before answering the Right Rev. Prelate, he must say
a few words upon what had fallen from the Noble Earl, and in
doing so, he assured the Noble Earl that he felt the most perfect
respect for the Noble Earl's conduct and motives. The Noble
Earl assumed throughout that which was necessary to be proved
as the very foundation of his arguments. The Noble Earl bad
appealed vehemently and successfully to large bodies of persons,
many of whom were quite uneducated ; he had come down to
that House with petitions from two hundred thousand persons.
Now to those persons the language the Noble Earl had uniformly
held was, that the course of education adopted by the Ministers
would have the erect, and was intended for the purpose, of
depriving the Protestants of the use of their Bible. No asser-
tion could be more unfounded ; and unfounded as it was when
it was first uttered, not one attempt had been since made to
prove that it was true. It was no part of this system to meddle
with the system of exclusive Protestant education : it was not
intended to interfere with the schools which the Protestants
had already established for themselves, nor with the funds
which they had appropriated for that purpose. All that was
contended for was, that if there was to be a joint system of
education, at the public expense, and for the public benefit, to
be provided for the people of Ireland, there should not be an-
nexed to it a condition which would prevent the people from
enjoying the advantages to be derived from that education. He
was not surprised that any one of the two hundred thousand
persons should say they would not give up their Bible. But
he had a right to complain that the Noble Earl, after draw-
ing his own inferences, and often drawing them most
should state them to the people as facts.—(Hear,
hear.) What fact was there that authorized him, to make
these statements ? The principle on which the Ministers
acted was, that it was expedient there should be a system
of public instruction ; that the unfortunate people of Ire.
land were not to be left, as before, but were to have
an opportunity of having rational, moral, and religious instruc-
tion. Any system of instruction which was nut founded on
these principles was defective. So far they were all agreed.
Again, they were further agreed that education, to be safely
adapted to the people of that country, must be based not only
on religion, but on revealed religion ; and, further, that it
must not only be founded in morals and religion, but on scrip-
ture, as the authorized revelation of the will of the Supreme
Being. Then the question to be solved was, whether they
could found such a system of religious instruction for the Ca-
tholics and Protestants, based on the authority of the Scrip-
tures, as would be capable of being carried into execution.
There was no Noble Lord but roust lament if that were imprac-
ticable. He had, therefore, listened with the most unfeigned
regret to the statement of the Right Reverend Prelate, who
seemed to consider that no possible system could be found ca.
pable of attaining that end. The Noble Earl stood quite soli-
tary in the opinion that the people of Ireland were about to be
robbed of their Bible. Extracts from it lie called mutilations,
and said that no person with a proper regard for his religion
could endure that these mutilations should take place. When
this question was agitated last session, the Primate of Ire-
land—a mail in every way worthy of the highest respect—
met it quite differently. He did not say that the plan practi.
tally went to deprive the people of the Scriptures ; he did not
speak of mutilating them, but he attacked the plan, be-
cause lie said it was founded upon a principle which the
Church could never admit—namely, that the whole of the
Bible was not made the foundation of education. If the Noble
Earl was right, that was an abandonment of the Protestant
principle--a lowering of the Protestant standard.—(Hear, from
the llukc w
of Cumberland.) But that was not a religious, but
politicala
principle; for it amounted to this ; that it was in_
consistent with the dignity of the Protestant Church that any_
thing should be admitted, or any money applied for the pur-
poses of education, except on a system to which only the mem.
bers of that Church could give their assent, or, in other words,
that the great body of the people of that country should not
receive public education at all. All these arguments resolved

themselves into this—that. this was a re-agitation of the Ca-
tholic question, and amounted to saying that the Catholic
measure never should have been passed. Not an argument on
that side but went the length of saying that the Catholic was a
religion which ought not to be tolerated. The Right Rev.
Prelate, who had recently spoken, took up a ground at
variance with that adopted by the Noble Earl; for he
did not object to selections from the Scriptures, nor
call them mutilations. He was too learned to make
that complaint, nor indeed had ever done so ; for in the
former debate he said he did not object to the selection
of passages; but that he had nu confidence that they would
not be garbled. Even that, however, was a gratuitous assump-
tion, for nothing was then done. The Right Rev. Prelate had
not exhibited an excess of charity tonight in the observations
he had made respecting the Most Rev. Prelate, whose speech
had been so satisfactory, able, and eloquent, and whom he called
a lover of truth, but to whom certainly he had not done a su-
perabundance of justice. The Noble and Learned Lord here
quoted something as from the speech of the Right Rev. Pre-
late ; but even its purport was inaudible in the gallery, as
were also the observations of Lord Kenyon, who rose to order.
Lord PLUNKET continued. What the Noble Lord said
might show that it was not delicate for him to persevere in his
observations, but by no means proved that he was out of order.
He should not have thought it necessary to refer to what had
before fallen from the Right Rev. Prelate, if it had not been
rendered so by what he had said to-night—he had said that he
had been perfectly convinced that no fair extracts from the
Scriptures would be made from a Board constituted as that in
Dublin was. Why, there was Dr. Sadler, of Trinity College ;
there was Mr. Holmes, a barrister, both of whom were men of
the highest respectability; and then there was the Archbishop
of Dublin, and not one of these was likely to sacrifice Pro-
testantism. Well, then, here were the extracts—the Right
Reverend Prelate found fault with passages in them. In.
stead of the words, any "graven image," the extracts used the
words "graven thing." That was mentioned as a fault. In
his opinion the latter was a more effective prohibition of ido-
latry than the former, for the word " thing," included image,
but he believed that the Right Rev. Prelate admitted that the
word " thing " was more correct.— (The Bishop of ExETErt—
That the word would bear that construction in the Greek ver-
sion.) But if it would bear that construction in the Hebrew,
as he believed it would, then it was nearer accuracy than the
translation from the Greek The next point on which they
were called on not to give education to the people of Ireland, was
the question about the word "he " or " she," in the passage
about bruising the serpent's head. He had seen the word
"it " used.—(The Bishop of Bristol was understood to say
that the word was "he " in the original, but that it was "it "
in our version.) It seemed, then, that both differed from the
original. The note said, that in the original Hebrew the word
was " it ;" but it was surely hardly material whether the word
" it " or "he " was used to denote the seed, for both agreed
that by the seed of the woman was the serpent to be crushed.
If the rescuing of millions of men from vice—if the prospect of
restoring tranquillity to Ireland were to be blighted by such
criticisms as these—then, indeed, must the Government stop in
their proposed career of improvement. The Noble Earl and
the Right Rev. Prelate no doubt thought them most important,
but for the life of him he could not see that they were so.
Another objection was about the words " thou shalt not bow
down." " Bow down" did not necessarily mean to worship,
and he believed it was customary for the Canon of Christchurch,
Oxford, to bow to the altar as he quitted it, so that that cere-
mony was not confined to the Catholic Church, nor did it
necessarily show idolatry. Then there was a charge that the
Government had made a league with the Roman Catholics to
upset the Protestant hierarchy, and the Right Reverend Pre-
late said that the Right Hon. Secretary stood by the priests in
their rejection of the Bible.

The Bishop of EXETER begged to say that he had used his
own word.

Lord PLUNKET—Yes, that might be, but not without
note and comment. Could anybody believe that the charge
made by the Noble Earl opposite, with respect to this plan, was,
that it would overturn the present established religion ? Could
anybody in his senses believe such a charge, and was it not cal-
culated to keep up the jealousy that unhappily existed between
the parties of each religion ? The Noble Lord who last spoke
said that the present measure was not such a very bad one, and
that he objected to it because a society already existed sufficient
for all purposes, from which the powers it had should not be
taken. The question was, which system was the best ?
The Government system of education did not allow two ver.
sions of the Scriptures to be used in their schools, whilst
the Kildare street Society permitted either version to be used.
Yes, they who pocketed the public money allowed a Popish
version of the Bible to be used, and their masters inter-
preted and commented on it after their own way. Could this
be endured by the 200,000 Protestants who had risen and peti-
tioned against the Government plan ? It had also been argued,
that the proportion of Protestant children in the schools was
not satisfactory. It was no wonder that that should be the
case—that the number should be so small, when such unwor-
thy means should be resorted to to keep it so. The Noble and
Learned Lord then alluded to threats that had been made to
the Mendicity Society, if they sent children to those schools.
If they did so, certain persons threatened to withdraw their
aid from that Society. Was that justice—was that anything
like a Christian way of proceeding? No greater service could
be done, than to endeavour to do away with the jealousy that
existed between both persuasions. But the way to do that was,
not by continually spreading abroad that the Catholic religion
contained within itself principles deadly to the state. The
keeping up of this unextinguishable sectarian hostility, would
not tend to protect that Established Church for which he was
most anxious. It was terrible to think that a large portion of
the Irish people, thirsting for education, should be told that
they could only obtain it through the medium of the Kildare-
street Society. He would conclude by stating it as his convic-
tion, that the great difficulties in the way of reconciliation and
good feeling between both parties arose from obstinacy, and
from not making timely concessions. If it were wished to
protect and uphold the Protestant Church, the most effectual
way of doing so would be to make that seasonable concession
which the state of society required at their hand, and not
spoil that which had been already done with such favourable
promise of a happy result. _ .

The Earl of WICKLOW begged to ask if anybody with
true Protestant feelings could consider the present system one
calculated for the promotion of an united plan of education ?
He considered it a great national calamity if Protestant chil-
dren in any numbers should attend these schools ; for, though
they might enter them professed Protestants, they would come
out of them professed Catholics. He claimed the indulgence
of their Lordships for reading, at that late hour of the night,
an extract from a learned writer of the Church of England, in
contrasting the practices of the Pagan priesthood with those of
the Catholic priesthood. The extract went to show that the
Pagan priesthood had chosen but a few books on divine sub-
jects, and that they kept them closed to the inspection of the
people ; whilst, on the contrary, the Protestant priesthood,
instead of keeping their flocks in darkness, urged them
to search the Scriptures, and become enlightened. The hook
then points out how closely allied the Pagan and Catholic priest-
hood were ; for the latter, like the former, in order to continue
their dominion founded in error, hid that "candle under a
bushel" which was meant to enlighten the nations. He was the
more surprised at this passage, when he found that its author
was a supporter of the present system of education; but per.
haps he thought himself politically bound to do so, and that
the high situation to which he was promoted obliged him to
undertake the defence of a system, the evil tendency of which
he did not fully conceive. Having made these remarks, he
would say, with reference to what fell from the Noble and
Learned Lord who had last spoken, that it was nothing more
than an attempt to answer several speeches that had already
been made last session. The only difference in the way the
Noble and Learned Lord answered those speeches then and
now was, that last session he came with numerous returns of
the number of children admitted into the schools he defended,
and that he then contended it far exceeded what the Kildare-
jeet Society could accomplish. But to-night there was no
statement—no return—not a word about the increase of those
schools, though he had expected it. He did not expect that
there would have been an increase of Protestant children, but
that there would be of those of the Roman Catholic persua-
sion. However, that was not the line of argument pursued
by the Noble and Learned Lord on the present occasion. The
Noble Earl then contended, that the alteration in any
way of the Scriptures involved the most important conse-
quences. He objected, as he had done last session, to the intro-
duction of the Government system of education, as it would
tend to subvert the plans of that society, which was better
suited than any other for an united system of education. He
thought it unwise to subvert the system of that Society, which
was not only working well, but which had not been disapproved
of by many of the Catholic clergy themselves. The blow that
society had received from the present Government, it would be
very difficult to recover from, though its management was
placed in very able hands—in the hands of those most likely to
do good to the Catholics. He hoped that Government would
explain this united system to Parliament, and that for the fu-
ture, they would apply for a grant for Catholic education. They
might apply a portion of that grant to the education of Pro.
testants, or of the Dissenters of the north, but keep the chief
portion for the Catholics. He should be glad to see this grant
made, as he was pretty sure the Kildare-street Society could
not be revived, and as he wished that children should be edu-
cated in their own schools. The Protestants—for they were
generally rich—had their own schools; it was not so with the
Catholics, who were poor, and who, consequently, had no means
of being educated unless they took education on terms they did
not choose to accept.

The Earl of GOSFORD was not surprised that Protestant
children were kept away from the present schools, when such
reports, prejudicial to those schools, were industriously spread
throughout Ireland. He had met with several Protestant
clergymen of the North, who had the strongest objections to those
schools; but when he questioned them, he found that their ob.
jections were not founded either on evidence or observation,
but that they proceeded from mere hearsay. The system,
wherever he saw it tried, had most completely succeeded. He
begged to mention the testimony of a Rev. Gentleman—the
Rev. John Staples, of Moville—who, as soon as he had described
the new system, .saw his school filled with scholars of all per-
suasions

Lord CLONCURRY said, that the Roman Catholics were
much more in want of education than the Protestants. He
thought that the funds of the Kildare street School should be
set aside for the education of Catholics exclusively; and he
thought that their Lordships would not consider 25,0001. or
30,0001. too much for the education of all the Catholics in Ire-
land. The funds for the education of Protestants were large
and ample, and could be increased if necessary ; but those for
the education of Catholics were both precarious and small. He
thought that the state of Ireland was attributable in a great
measure to the priests. They were not so well educated as
they formerly were, and were given to low society and low

habits, so that they lost that influence which might enable them
to prevent disturbances.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would only detain the House
for one minute while he should endeavour to satisfy the House
with regard to those schools. The Right Rev. Prelate was
right in stating that these schools were only on trial, for there
had not been sufficient time yet to judge of their full effects.
There were already, however, in course of education in con-
nection with those schools, 86,440 children ; and as soon as the
grants now tinder consideration were decided on, he had no
doubt that the number would be increased to 1211,000. He
would mention the case of a school in which he himself was
interested, to show how difficult it was to establish schools un.
connected with this society. He founded a school in a very re-
mote district, with every desire to give the advantages of it to
persons of all religions. That school had the protection of the
Kildare-street Society, the support of the landlord, and many
other circumstances in favour of its success ; nevertheless,
from the prejudice felt to it, he found, after the experience of
twelve years, that it did not succeed. He found that one-third
the number of scholars did not enter which the school could
contain, and he was at last obliged to discontinue it. That
school was afterwards added to the society, and he was shortly
afterwards asked if he would be willing to increase the size of
the schoolhouse, as the school, which was formerly too small
for the building, had become too large for it. And he believed
that the same was the general case in the south of Ireland. The
question was not whether the children should be educated in
Catholic or Protestant principles, but the real fact was, that an
immense population must be educated in Catholic principles or
not at all. He thought that the Right Rev. Prelate paid a bad
compliment to the Protestant religion, when he said that the
Protestant children, from being educated for four days in the
week with the Catholic children, might have their principles
shaken, especially as there were two days set apart for educat-
ing them in their own principles. He would only add, that
both from the feelings of humanity, and from political expe-
diency, it was proper in the Government to make proper provi-
sion for the education of the Catholics. He would have re-
ferred their Lordships to some of the evidence laid before the
House on that subject, were the hour not so late; he would
then only refer them to the evidence of Sir Francis Blosse,
who said that the most common education had a powerful effect
in preventing disturbances. In conclusion, he prayed them
to look to this question, as one intended to overcome the dif-
ficulty of providing education for four-fifths of the people of
Ireland.

The Earl of RODEN said a few words in reply, after which
the petition was laid on the table, and the House adjourned at
Twelve o'clock.

FROM LAST NIGHT'S GAZETTE.

ST. JAMES'S PALACE, MARCU 15, 1S:13.
This day the Baron de Zuylen de Nyevelt, Minister on a spe-
cial mission from the King of the Netherlands, had an audience
of his Majesty to deliver his letter of recall. To which he was
introduced by Lord Viscount P haerston, his Majesty's Principal
Secretary of State for Foreign Affitirs, and conducted by the
Master of the Ceremonies.

WHITEHALL, MARCH S.
The Lord Chancellor has appointed Edgar Maker, of Lewes,
in the county of Sussex, Gent., to be a Master Extraordinary in
the High Court of Chancery.

OFFICE OF ORDNANCE, MARCH 15.
Royal Regiment of Artillery—First Lieut. B. L. Poynter to be
Second Captain, vice Talbot, deceased; Second Lieut. H. Roth=
to be First Lieutenant, vice Poynter, Feb. 3.
Corps of Royal Engineers—Gentleman Cadet J. G. 31'Kerlic
to be Second Lieutcnant, with temporary rank, Feb. M.

Commissions by the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Cardigan.
The Right Hon. the Earl of Lisburne to be Deputy Lieute-
nant, Dec. 4, F 32; G. W. Parry, Esq., to be ditto, March,
1833; M D. Williams, Esq., to he ditto, March, 1833; J.
Hughes, Esq , to be ditto, March, 1833; C. R. Longcroft, Esq.,
to be ditto, March, 1833.
Commission by the Lord Lieutenant of the East Riding of the
County of York, and Town and County of the Town of King-
ston-upon-Hull.
J. Wood, Esq., to be Deputy Lieutenant, March 15.
Commissions by the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Northum-

berland.

The Right Hon. C. Bennett, Conly called Lord Ossulston ;
B. Burrell, Esq. ; and F. J. W. Collingwood, to be Deputy Lieu-
tenants, March 8.
. _ _

Commissions by the Lord Lieutenant of the county of Salop.
Sir F. It. Acton, Bart., to be Deputy Lieutenant, Aug. 11.
North Shropshire Yeomanry Cavalry.
G. Stanton, Gent., to be Cornet, vice Shirley, promoted,
March 12.

Commission by the Lord.Lieuvenant of the County o, Derby.
Repton and Gresley Troop (3; Derbyshire Yeomanry Cavalry.
C. H. Crewe, Gent., to be Lieutenant, vice J. Beaumont, re-
signed, Dec. 1, 1832.