The Sun.
London, England, 1848-08-25 00:00:00

fashion of the Kilkenny cats.—(Laughter.) He, how-
ever, was rejoiced to see that so many llon. Members
had not only outlived the fatigues of the session, but
that in endeavenring to prove their mental and bodily
vigour, they had given a sort of rally to the session
which would otherwise decline.—(Laughter.) He hoped
he might see them equally vigorous and ardent in the
discharge of their legislative functions after the fatigues
o' the recess at the beginning of next session.—(Hear,
hear.) Ministers had been taunted with postponing
• her measure's, and now bringing this on. But they
had invariably replied to questions on the subject that
t was their intention to go on with it. They were then
told that by persisting in that intention they were con-
cocting some deep scheme, some mysterious mischief,
some hidden purpose. Such things existed only in the
imagination of Hon. Gentlemen—certainly not in the in-
tention of the Government. They were told that they
were more solicitous about railroads in Italy than the
interests of Ireland. Now, what he said upon that sub •
ject was simply that, considering the growing impor-
tance of the commerce of Italy, it was desirable we
should enter into permanent relations with that country,
and with every other throughout the world. 'rho Hon.
Member for Youghal said we could do with the present
law, and the Hon. Member for Stafford quoted several
cases in which diplomatic intercourse had been carried
on between the two countries. That was precisely the
case of the Government, who contended that the very
necessity of things compelled us to establish an inter.
Source with the Court of R me, by avowed and acknow-
ledged channels, instead of having a great country like
this driven into holes and corners, and obliged to do
stealthily what it would be more becoming to do openly.
--(Hear, hear.) With regard to the assertion that this
Bill would tend, he knew not how, to put the Pope
under such restraint as was imposed by Napoleon, so
that whatever he did would be under duress, he could
only say that both the late Pope and the present bad
expressed a desire to have diplomatic relations esta-
blished between this country and Rome. Those Pro-
testants, therefore, who raised that objection showed
themselves more Papist than the Pope himself.—
(Laughter.) Indeed, :the late Pope never allowed the
opportuning of receiving any distinguished Englishman
to pass without expressing his regret at the want of di-
plomatic relations between the two countries. They
were net likely, therefore, to do any violence to the
Pope by this measure, which he hoped the House would
pass, as simply enabling us to hold that political inter-
Course with Rome which we hold with every other coun-
try, whether Christian or Mahomedan.—(Hear, hear,
and cries of " Divide.")
Mr. GORING moved the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. ANSTEY explained that his distinction was this
that under the present law we could have diplomatic re-
lations with the Popo of Rome as a temporal but not as
a spiritual sovereign, and therefore this Bill in his opi-
nion was brought in to enable Ministers to ,establish in
seine shape or other spiritual relations between them-
selves and the see of Rome.
Mr. BRIGHT said the Bill had not one feature in it
which any rational man could object to unless that which
compelled the Pope not to send an ecclesiastic to this
country, which was just the very thing he would not
have done if left to himself. Honourable Gentlemen
ought either to let this Bill pass, or take upon themselves
the responsibility of the Government of the country.
Captain HARRIS declined to put himself under the
generalship of the Honourable Member for Youghall—
(A. laugh)—and thought that if they put off this measure
to next session, they would only then get a worse one.
The House then divided on the question of adjouring
the debate, when there appeared—
Ayes
Noes
Majority.. —7l
Mrs FORBES made an ineffectual attempt to address
the House amidst cries of " Spoke."
Captain VYSE moved that the House do adjourn (as
he subsequently discovered he had done, that Mr. Forbes
might be heard).
Lord J. RUSSELL observed that the Hon. and
Learned Member (Mr. Napier), who said he would op-
pose but not obstruct the Bill, had, with a due regard to
his own character, left the House.
Mr. FORBES then reiterated the objections he had
made to the Bill at the early sitting, and
Mr. SPOONER rose to address the House, when
Sir G. GREY interposed, and expressed a hope that
Ron. Members would pay a substantial regard to the
rules of the House by not speaking twice in the same
debate. The Hon. Member (Mr. Forbes) had again
made the speech which he had delivered in the morn-
ing, and he supposed the Hon. Member for Birmingham
rose to do so too.—(A laugh.) He wished to offer no
obstacle to full and free discussion, but he thought it
rather too great an infringement on the rules of the
House for Hon. Members to deliver precisely the same
speech at 12 o'clock at night that they had made at 12
o'clock the same day.—(Hear, hear.)
Capt. VYSE begged to say that he in no way desired
to offend against the rules of the House, or offer any
factious opposition to the Bill. He had moved the ad-
journment of the House to give his Hon. Friend (Mr. b
Forbes) an opportunity of speaking, conceiving that e
Was about to throw a new light on the subject.
House,
and SPOONER persisted in addressing the
and denied that he was acting in a factious spirit by
doing so; and that he was only exercising a constitu-
tional privilege and discharging his duty. from which he
would not shrink.
After a short conversation,
Captain VYSE withdrew his motion for the adjourn-
ment of the House, and a division took place upon the
main question ;when the numbers were—
For going into Committee
Against it
Majority 77
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.
Mr. ANSTEY moved a verbal amendment on the
second clause, to omit the words " Notwithstanding any-
thing contained in the Acts now •
force it would be,"
and to insert the words
" it is;" 1
s;'n' the effect of which
would be to render the law declaratory that it was the
law of the land to hold relations with the Pope, as Lord
Campbell had expressed his opinion in a speech made on
the 11th of May, 1846.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that Lords Cottenham and
Campbell no doubt thought it to be lawful, but considered
it advisable to remove all doubts. Lord Campbell had
pronounced a very different opinion to that quoted by the
Hon. Member the other night.
The gallery was then cleared, but the amendment was
negatived without a division. On its re-opening,
Captain HARRIS reminded the House that the Pope
might cease to be a temporal prince without ceasing to
be the spiritual head of the catholic church of Rome.
lie moved the exclusion of the words "court of Rome."
Lord PALMERSTON did not understand that the
words " court of Rome " were intended to apply to the
spiritual jurisdiction of the Popc•
Mr. HENLEY suggested that the words " Sovereign
of the Roman states" be inserted instead of the words
"court of Rome."
Lord PALMERSTON said he had no objection to the
alteration ; and
Capt. HARRIS withdrew his amendment.
Mr. C. PEARSON said he understood the object of
this Bill was to remove doubts, and that it might do this
more effectually he would move the insertion, at the end
of the first clause, of the words " touching and concern-
ing international, civil, commercial, and political rela-
tions between her Majesty, her heirs, and suc•
oessors, and the sovereign for the time being of the
Roman states." This would prevent the application of
the diplomatic intercourse to any religious matters. He
had heard with some surprise that at this moment ar-
rangements were going on with the Sovereign of the
Roman states for partitioning this country into Roman
Catholic bishoprics. This would probably be the pre-
lude to a proposal for the endowment of the Roman
Catholic clergy. If ever such a measure were sanc-
tioned, it ought to be originated in this House, and not
by diplomatic arrangements. Believing, as he did, that
the interference of the State with the Church was un-
lawful and dangerous to all parties, he was convinced
that the existing union of the State with the Protestant
Church would not now be sanctioned if we were found-
ing a constitution; it was merely tolerated as a thing
of long existence, which it would be difficult to put an
end to. The payment of the Roman Catholic clergy by
the state would be an additional link in the chain con-
necting the civil and ecclesiastical power; and he was
therefore anxious to guard against any pretext for such
an arrangement being furnished by this Bill. The
Noble Lord opposite (Palmerston) having
contemplated
ly
stated that political objects only were
this Bill, he could not reasonably refuse the adoption by
this amendment. He (Mr. Pearson) was anxious to
guard against the payment of the Roman Catholic
clergy being made the condition of certain countervailing
advantages to be given to Government, in the represen-
tation, for instance, of Lambeth.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said the words pro-
posed to be added would produce only an injurious
effect. The words "diplomatic intercourse" were well
understood to mean such intercourse us was held with
the Court of Prussia, Austria, or any other Government.
Questions might arise not coming within any of the four
descriptions embraced in the Hon. Member's amendment.
Take, for instance, the measure referred to by the Hon.
Member—the division of this country into bishoprics.
He might clearly do this at present ; but atter the pass-
. ing of this Bill, with the amendment proposed, the Go-
vernment could offer no opposition to such a proposal.
Neither could they interpose in favour of the religious
liberty of residents in Rome professing the Protestant
faith ; for such interference would not come within the
definition of diplomatic intercourse proposed by the
lion. Member for Lambeth.
Mr. ANSTEY saw no ground for objecting to the
amendment, unless there was some unavowed object
behind which this Bill was expected to serve. If the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government really meant
to deal fairly with the House and the country, and to
conceal nothing as to the real aims and objects of this
measure, he would signify his assent to the amendment.
In order that the subject might be fully considered he
(Mr. Anstey) would move that the Chairman now report
progress, and ask leave to bit again.—(No, no; divide.)
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL concurred with the Hon. and
Learned Member for Youghal, and thought the Bill was
intended to interfere with the spiritual rights and reli-
gious privileges of the Roman Catholic population of this
country.
Mr. BRIGHT opposed the amendment, and thought
that if the Bill was altered as now proposed, it would be
better to reject it altogether.
Sir R. E. INGLIS was of opinion that the words of
the amendment, if applied to a measure for establishing
diplomatic relations with any other sovereign than the
.t'ope, would involve a truism, and were therefore sur-
plusage.
Lord PALMERSTON thought the amendment would,
If carried, be productive of great inconvenience from the
refinement of construction which would be put on its
terms. The Hon. Baronet (Sir R. H. Inglis) had some
years since applied to him (Lord Palmerston) to make
a representation to the Government of Savoy in fa-
vour of the religion of the Vaudois, and afterwards
to. interfere with, SWitwerlaud to prevent ,interferenee