The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-22 00:00:00

DUTIES BILL.

The Committee on thee two Bills was postponed till Friday
neat.

PROTECTION OF LIFE (IRELAND) BILL.
The adjourned debate on the first reading of this Bill was
postponed till Friday next:____

SUPPLY.

On the motion of Mr. GREENE, the report of this Com-
mittee was brought up, and the resolutions agreed to.
POOR-LAW COMMISSIONERS.

Mr. CHRISTIE rose to move for copies of all correspond-
ence between William Day, Esq., late Assistant Commissioner
of Poor-laws and the Poor-1..w Commissioners, and the Secre-
tary for the Home Departs ent, relative to his involuntary re-
signation of his Assistant Poor-law Commissionership; and of
all Minutes relative to lklr. Day's resignation, and to the ap-
pointment of Colonel Wade as his successor. Also, that it be
be an instruction to the Committee on the Andover Union to
inquire into all the circumstances under yvhich Mr. Day was
called upon to resign. In asking for these papers, he thought
that he was only asking for, that which was requisite, from a
reason that under the circumstances it was justand necessary for
the public service, and which seems on every ground to require
exelenation. He trusted that there would be HO objection
made by the Government on this occasion, although he was
aware that the Poor-law Commissioners had, under the Act,.
the power of removing an Assistant-Commissioner; but at the,
same time, he was aware that the Act of Parliament which
gave the discretion also required that it should be exercised only
upon due cause being shown; and he wished to know whether,
in the case to which he had referred, any communication had
been made to the Secretary of the Home Department? By that
Act it was also required that at every meeting of the Com-
missioners the secretary should be present, and without him
the board was not considered complete. At each of these
meetings also it was required that the secretary should take a
full note of the proceedings, the minutes of which should be
forwarded according to the regulations of the Poor-law Amend-
ment Act. (The Hon. Gentleman here read the 7th section
of the Act, which regulates this proceeding.) He wished tee
know whether these minutes had been made, and whether they
bad been submitted to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite?
Mr. Day applied to the Poor-law Commissioners, and to the
Right Hon. Baronet, for all the minutes relative to the call
upon him fur his resignation. Reasons had been given to him
—reasons which he should show presently did not at all tally
with one another. He thought he might safely say that the
facts and circumstances of the case fully and clearly disproved
every one of the reasons which had been advanced. These
reasons being totally unsatisfactory to Mr. Day, he applied
to the Poor-law Commissioners to ascertain the real cause of
his dismissal, but the only answer he could get from them was
an evasion of the question, and from the Right Honourable
Baronet an acknowledgment of his letter. He
now proceed to detail the circumstances
r would.
Day
of M's
case. At the time when he was unexpectedl re-
quested to send in his resignation, he had been an Assistant
Commissioner for a period of eight years. Mr. Day, long
before the passing of the Poor-law Commission Act, had
paid special attention to the working of the poor-law, having
been for some years in the commission of the peace for the
county of Sussex, and had watched its operations with great
interest. At the time of the passing of the Act, Mr. Day
gave to the:Commissioners the benefit of his experience, and
sent them a report, the value of which they at once admitted,
and which they printed and placed as a preface to their own
report. Mr. Day continued to give them the benefit of his
observations after the formation of the beard at Somerset
House, and the sense which the Commissioners had of his
assistance was proved by the fact, that when, towards the close
of the year 1835, it was determined to appoint six additional
commissioners, it was proposed to Mr. Day, without any soli-
citation on his part, that he should undertake one of those
appointments thus placed at their disposal. He believed that
he might say the applications for cemrnissionerships were ex-
tremely numerous, and out of a large number of candidates
many were persons of distinction and
for the appointment,
ability. Mr. Day, however, was the person selected to fill
one of the six commissionerships. He did not accept the
appointment without some solicitation, as he had embarked
largely in farming, in Sussex, and it occurred to him that his
acceptance of the appointment would withdraw him from the
pursuits in which he was engaged, and there would be nothing
in the appointment to recompense him for the withdrawal.
Mr. Day accepted the appointment, and from that time con-
tinued in the situation for eight years, during which he zea-
lously and faithfully discharged his duty, and received the ap-
probation of his superiors. During the whole of that period he
was only absent eight weeks, and he was never subject to the
slightest expression of disapprobation. The only fault—if
fault it could be called—that was found with him, was Mr.
Lewis requesting him in his communications to write his cha-
racters larger. The eight weeks absence arose from an acci-
dent which Mr.Daymeek. on the Bth of SeptembertswithinAugust,le43,bywhhieehhe
was laid up for five we
re-
sumed his duty, and be continued improving in health and
strength, and had almost forgotten the accident, when he was
reminded of it about five months after it took place by receiving
a communication from the Poor-law Commissioners. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman here read the letter which Mr.
Day received, which was to the effect that the condition of the
dlaiwstrcicotinhamdisbseioennebrs7augndhtthuenydewretrheescaotinssfiieddertahtiaotnanof
active the oAosr.-
sistant Commissioner was necessary and inslivensable. On
this account, from the accident that had occured un the 19(h
August, and as they were precluded from appointing any
supernumerary,
tt
oiotnhe
necessary
conclusion
t otheyttbh the due
tdwubeeer
fulfilment
fiirlunder
De ntahtyoe)f ptcahoieundlfduu necessityltnieost
o f maketh e office,o the f coemaei coming
gd.
suggested his resignation. This was signed by Mr. Nicholls.
Mr Day did not resume his duties till the 25th September,
but he had reason to suppose that the Poor-law Commis-
sioners believed that he had recovered from the effects of
his accident before that time, for he had a letter from a Mr.
Lewis of a previous date, stating that he was glad that he
was able to resume his duties, although he would still, no
doubt, feel the effects of the accident for some time to come.
Mr. Day replied to the communication from Mr. Nicholls,
and stated, that as far as his bodily health was concerned,
he was as well as ever, but he was convinced that had lie
asked leave for a quarter be should have been well much
sooner; but he added, that, under the circumstances, he
could not think of asking leave for such a period.
Mr. Day got no answer to the letters which he forwarded to
the Poor-law Commissioners, further than expressions of sin-
cere regret that they were compelled, from a s nse of duty, to
abstain from giving the reasons of his dismissal. Sentiments
of such regret were certainly lavishly used, and they disclaimed
all intention to injure him, and all absence of personal feeling
in the matter. . '1 he Commissioners had received evidence
against Mr. Day with closed doors, and that gentleman had no
opportunity of ascertaining the grounds of his dismissal. He
had from time to time written to there, praying and beseech-
ing them to reveal to him those reasons, but he had not, up
to the present moment received any such information. Now
ho (Mr. Christie) considered it a painful injustice that an old
and long-tried officer, Mr. Day, should be treated as he had.
Mr. Day wrote to Mr. Lewis, asking him to give him the rea-
sons of his dismissal, to which Mr. Day received an answer,
but the writer scrupulously abstained from giving any reasons
for his dismissal. The writer of the letter wrote another to
the Chairman of the South Wales Union, and received an an •
Inver, in which the writer declared that he had never heard
his name mentioned before Sir James Graham, sq that tpig
point that Mr. Day's dismissal had not been owing to any re.
presentation that had been made to the South Wales Com-
missioners. When Mr. Day could get no satisfactory explan-
ation from the Poor-law Commissioners, he applied to the
Right Hon. Gentleman, from whom he received a letter,
which the Hon. Member read, and which was to the effect
that the Poor-law Commissioners alone had the exercise of
the authority of dismissal, and that dismissals had taken piece
► in consequence of a reduction of the establishment having be-

come necessary, and that no stain was thrown upon Mr. Day's , pooo.,anti came up in the Oriental, ten days after. Letters
rhaeacter, The lion. Member the n wer•t on to say the,. ;she ! and vipers were thrown on one side, as the delivery of that
Nicholls had ascribed Mr. Day's dismissal to his no tv,,rk aid not permit their delivery. There were papers for the
equal to the duties of the ollitte The House can conceive North and South American Coffee-house—for the Jerusali m
what must have been Mr. Dev'e astonishment when, after hay- Coffee-house—fur Grindley and Co., Cornhill, and various
iingreeeived the letter calling upon him to resign within a others; and it appeared that all those letters were detained in
t;rtoight of the date of that letter, he heard from Air. Nicholls consequence of that work, or job, whichever it was called.
that, the establishmenttowsausecreeedduCheidm, and that Colonel Wade The letter-carriers had been threatened to be reported if they
na4 been 'appointed in the office whieb he did not assist in the delivery of the work, however attentive
ooheld Assistant-Commissioner.Colonel Wade had they might have been to their public duties. He (Mr. T.
•'"vn appointed to succeed him, and he was rather inclined Duncombe) did not believe that the Postmaster-general was
to think that the prolongation of the appointment had been acquainted with those facts. In answer to his observations
made to suit Colonel Wade's convenience. Mr. Day had con- it %multi be said that these letter-carriers collected the informa-
upued to act es Assistant-Commissioner for nearly two months tiers for the week out of official hours. He was happy to say
Otter he had reseived the letter requesting him to resi:cn ; and I that such an answer would be quite false, for the information
Ie order to complete the inconsistency which had been dis- was eelleeted during the delivery of the letters. They might
haled throughout this transaction, it would appear that, from a be told that these men had an interest in collecting this infer-
triad er ending from the 31st of March to the 18th of April, mation. They had a commission on the sale of the work—a
e district over which Mr. Day had presided was left with- fact very discreditable to the establishment.—( Hear, hear.)
1)14 any superintendence. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite Let them have a fair remuneration for their labour, and let
Lad state t, that no fault was attributable to him, but no reason them not be paid by this paltry, miserable, jobbing work.
possible
t
lictlbeen given for being so peremptorily called upon to resign. was well known that the parties who had the least
„` Could not have been that it was intended to reduce the chance of anything like favour in the Post-office
Kelly
were
and Co.
went
of the officers employed, er to reduce the establish- who could sell most of the works of Messrs. an
teen of the Poor. law Commission ; why, there had If the letter-carriers did not collect the informatiownar.euire
stopped
, no reduction in the Assistant Commissioners, other men were put, on in their places, and so much
and the Board had, in fact, been materially increased from their week's earnings. The petitioner further stated that
the appointment of a fourth Chief Commissioner. I the public stores, such as ink, paper, pens, &c., were freely
e lion. Gentleman then read a letter which Mr. Day hed used for the purposes of this work. What right had they to
could not
to the Duke of Wellington' when he found that he use the public stores ? And it was also stated by the petitioner
;Onald not succeed in obtaining redress elsewhere. The letter that the revenue had ben defrauded, by means of the sending
complained that Mr. Day had been dismissed ; but with the out of the circulars for this work by the letter-carriers, with-
mere excuse—a vague generality of public service and public
9—the public would not feel that he had been dismissed with such a proceeding as this? It was a fraud on the revenue.
The petitioner also stated that Mr. Frederick Kelly had in-
without a cause on the contrary, they would
iemntertain suspi-
cions that some The Hon. strutted the letter-carriers how, to evade the Hawking Act on
char a was reserved against h
Gentleman then resumed b reading a motion, of which he the sale of the w Directory.' The books were left at the doors
of gentlemen, and if they were not at home the book was left.
Propriety
given notice, and proceeded to say there would be no im-
Pro,opriety in referring this subject to a- Committee of Inquiry. If the money was given for it, nothing further was said about
-mere existed great similarity between the case of Mr. Day it; but if no money was forth-coming the book was removed.
Ind the ease of Mr. Parker, which had been brought before He said that this was hawking. Mr. Kelly had also, on his
the House. With respect to Mr. Day, he had repeatedly own authority, stopped the wages of letter-carriers for debts
aPitlied to the Poor-law Commissioners without obtaining any due to Kelly and Co. by the letter-carriers on account of this
Satisfactory reply. Assisting Commissioners had been dis- Directory, and the petitioner also stated that he had witheld
kissed at different times under circumstances which exposed the resignations of letter-carriers until he had paid himself for
them to the most disagreeable suspicions. There had been no the debts due by those carriers. He could prove cases where
Orsturbance about Mr. Day's case, all had been conducted with the resignation of letter-carriers had been detained because the
the strictest propriety,. and he felt that both Mr. Day and Mr. individual owed Mr. Kelly money, Mr. Kelly saying that he
parker had met great injustice at the hands of the would not give in the resignation until be was paid ; and the
Commissioners. His belief was, that when these letter-carrier doing no work, let it be recollected. He said that
two cases, with all the facts connected with them, such a proceed ng was a fraud on the revenue—(Hear, hear)
caould come before the public, it would be quite —and it was discreditable for the Government to sanction or
Impossible that the House could again vote the salaries protect a person of this sort. There are also 150 copies of the
of the Poor-law Commissioners without having first investi- Directory sold for the use of the letter-carriers, and paid for
Sated an inquiry into their general mode of administering the out of the revenue, at the same time that the use of the work
paor-laws of the country. The House was probably an are of was forbidden to the letter-carriers, on the ground of its occa-
tt Mode in which the Rochdale board of guardians had been sioning loss of time to the person using them. The work was
Justified by a decision of the Court of Queen's Bench, in sold, but never used, as the looking for the address would cc-
14heYing an order of the Poor-law Commissioners. They cupy so much time that orders were given that they
been compelled, after every imaginary fencing on the part were not to be used. Let the Government not come
of
ot their counsel, at last reluctantly to confess that they were down and say, as a defence, that these volumes
a error. They were obliged to admit that the general order, were necessary as guides for the delivery of the letters.
addressed to the Rochdale board of guardians, was illegal, inas- This monopoly had been the means of ruining various parties
fiuc
h that, after having been signed by one commissioner, it who had attempted to get up Post-office Directories, and the
;as carried by a messenger to Mr. Lewis, to receise a second public were in consequent deprived of the benefit of competi-
natuoe. If then the Commissioners were wrong in one case, lion. He wished to know why it was that the public were to
theg natural inference would be that they were also wrong in be deprived of the benefit of this competition ? The effect was
tukther cases, which escaped the public notice. He believed that the public had to pay 30s. for the Post-office Directory.
that if a Committee were appointed to inquire into the which any bookseller in Paternoster-row could, if the same
general
mode of administering the Poor-law Amendment Act, advantages were given them that were given Mr. Kelly, supply
there would be no difficulty in proving that mu-h mismange- for 12.3. 6d. It was a just ground of complaint, that the public
went existed. It would be found that the Poor-law Commis- could have for 12s. or 15s. that for which they now paid 30s.
stoners had neglected to comply with many of the provisions —( Hear, hear.) Mr. Robson, who hsd attempted to publish
contained in the Poor-law Amendment Act. In the Rochdale a Directory, had been ruined by the interference of the Post-
;ace, for instance, where there was an order required for the office authorities; and by a return which had been made to the
IRoature of two Poor-law Commissioners, it had been signed House, it appeared that Mr. Kelly had purchased the copyright
bPene commissioner, and then by the secretary, which ren- of Mr. Robson's work Now he ( Mr. Dencombe) had
withinasmuch the express provi,ien of the Act. The services of the which threw some light on that transaction. ( The
diaretary, as recordine officer, had been in a measure entirely Hort. Gentleman here read the letter in question, which
.Pensed with. He'( Mr. Christie ) had always been a strong was to the effect, that Mr. Robson had been driven to ruin
'flendof the Poor-law Amendment Act, and had always voted and insanity, and his property destroyed, through the undue
for it
• The object of Isis present motion was not directed influence of the Pest-office authorities, and that he had in con-
against the poor-laws, but against the Poor-law Commissioners. sequence died in a workhouse. Mr. Robson applied to the
" could not tell what Would be the result of the present Post-office authorities to place him on the same footing with
motion, but whatever it might be, he felt sure that the state- Mr. Kelly, but he did not succeed in the application, and
meets he had made would go forth to-morrow to the public, though he had gone to enormous expense in getting up his work,
it,'they would be the judges. They would draw this inference he was obliged to abandon it, and part with it to Mr. Kelly
atomattached
the cases of Mr. Da and Mr. Parker, that no officer under most disadvantages circumstances. This letter was
'ached to the Poor-law Commissioners was at present safe signed by Mr. Knapp. On the return to which he (Mr.
fromtheir
the arbitrary manner in which the Commissioners exerted Duncombe) had alluded, it was set forth that Mr. Kelly
oeir power. bought the copyright of Mr. Robson, and its the puff issued by
_The motion was then read from the Chan., when Mr. Kelly, it was raid that Mr. Robson's Directory, in 1840,
sir JAMES GRAHAM rose and said he could assure the contained a number c-f blunders, which he explained and
e°li• and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down, that it pointed out. But if the House would give him (Mr. Duncombe)
el:tad take?' the opportunity of asking him whether or not it a Committee. lie would engage to prove that in the Directory of
(Sir his intention to oppose the metion before the House, he last year there were not less than 16,000 errors.—( Hear, hear.)
James Graham) should have informed him that it was this was in the Directory so much puffed, and which had
aOtd
his intention to have opposed it. On a former occasion he now total possession of the field. All the rival Directories had
told the House that in his opinion it was utterly impossible failed, and were given up, and this was the only Directory in
dfuet. the Poor-law Commissioners properly to discharge their London—of course the only one that could exist under the
teat unless they possessed the unfettered liberty of discharg- present system, it being impossible to compete against Mr.
itgtheir Assistant Commissioners, and other officers, whenever Fells', with the Post-office servants at his back, to assist him.
theywh thought proper, without being held responsible to any In the mean time the public were suffering. But let them look
,:er power. He had come to the fixed conclusion that the at the di-satisfaction that prevailed among the servants of the
%--ei of Mr. Parker had been thoroughly inquired into, and he establishment From 400 to 500 individuals there were almost
could not see any distinction between that case and the case of in a state of insubordination, arising from the duties imposed
001•• Day. woe Hou-e had decided by a majority on a former on them in reference to this Directory. That alone was a
e—ec'ion and it was not his intention to call upon the House to fact that should show the dangerous state of the establishment.
•41,ae to a division on the present occasion. He was willing at He had had several deputations of the men waiting on him, in
;Tee to accede to the motion of the BOR. Gentleman. The reference to this matter, within the last forteight ; and they
i 4 • Gentleman had animadverted upon certain circumstances in'imated that any morning they could bring 200 or
-"telt had nothing whatever to do with this case. With 300 of them to wait on him (Mr. Duncombe) to prove
tric.slieet to the Rochdale Board of Guardians, he believed that the state of feeling in the establishment.—( A laugh.) This
°ere had been an error in that ease, but it was was a bad, a dangerous, and improper state of things. He
his intention at present to go into that matter. had received a fetter that morning, in reference to an alledged
The Hon. Gentleman had also said that the proceedings of improvement of feeling that had recently taken place among
ore Poor-law Commissioners in the case of Mr. Parker and the sub-sorters. It was represented that a memorial had been
17_1'. Day could not be justified. lie had every reason to be- got up among the sub-sorters to the Lords of the Treasury,
L 1,7% that the Commissioners had exercised their power in expressing thanks at the improvement made in their remu-
le° ne cases with great discretion. It was possible that the neration, and declaring that they had no participation in the
,sllllerintendents of the districts might, in their opinion, be calumnious placards and statements that had been put forth in
'4,1,,e0ed under the superintendence of a person who, on the reference to the management of affairs in the Post-office. Now
tulles,
might be considered as more adequate to discharge the the letter he had received gave the true particulars of this, and
s. But he (Sir James Graham) did not wish to institute denied that this step was taken by any member of the sub-
(llY comparison between Mr. Day and Colonel Wade. He, sorters, but that it was got up by only a few. A few days
u;
.Ins own part, had no partiality whatever for Colonel after it was got up it was sent round for signatures, when
aansl, in fact, was unacquainted with him, and was also after the strongest representations 25 signed out of 70. This
ttaequaintee! with Mr. Day ; he could, therefore, decide with very much excited Mr. Robert Kelly, and a sub-sorter of
iierfect indifference between them. All that he could say was, the name of Roberts, was charged, in consequence, with
oat vvitlerespeet to any part which he had taken in this trans- some mal-practice. It was proved, however, that Roberts was
etion, that he had not been guided in any way by showing not guilty of the charge, though at the time Mr. Betonell, One
avuur and partiality to one more than another, It was neces- of the officers of the establishment, threatened to kick ten or
it!i•Y to promote the public service with reference to particular a dozen of them out of it.---(Hear, hear.) Nothing would
Istriets, that the Commissioners should have that power of give satisfaction but the appsintment of a Committee of in-
'C'Pointing whom they pleased to the superintendence. He vestigat:on- There were many other subjects in relation to this
fare James Graham), for one, would consent to the produc- topic that might be referred to, and a good deal might be said
ion of all correspondence and papers relative to this trans. in the way of remedy. A great deal might be done in the
anon, kOre was fully prepared to make the most ample and latter respect if they did away with the whole system of fees
lireserved ea planation with respect to the circumstances that for early delivery. According to this system, a letter-carrier
oacurred 1,7 reference to the resigration of Mr. Day as went on t the etablishment at 20. a week ; then he was in-
!osistant Commiesioner. Under these circumstances, he creased too 235. ;sad, in the courses of a few years, he was re-
4ould not feel justified in opposing the motion of the Hon. and enrced to 14s , the salary to be made up by the fees arising from
'earned Gentleman. early delivery. Now, he knew that in some districts
The motion was then cut from the Chair, and agreed to the system of early delivery was done away with ;
division, tithout adi • • on. still it remained intact in many others, and those
CHRISTIE said that the Right Hon. Baronet had parties who could feet give security for the early de-
f''!nno explanation of his intensied reduction of the number livery of letters had to submit to a reduced salary of 145.--
srAss istant Poor-law Commiseioneee, as stated in the letter ( Hear, hear. ) They ought to consolidate the general and
itten by him, district departments of the establishment, so as to make but
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that when he wrote that letter he one department ; and as they had the power to use any of
lid Contemplate OL" a reduction of the number of Assistant Poor- the trains on the railways for the carrying of letters, they
Commissioners. could bring them as often as they might think fit, and they
'AL-PRACTICES IN THE GENERAL POST- could be delivered with what was now called the district de-
'

OFFICE.
Mr. P r. T. DUNCONIB said, that he would ask if it was the
ntention of Government— to accede to the motion he was about
r; Make. He would not long occupy the time of the House,
the Government intended to accede to it, but if it was their
ntention to oppose the
House,e was about to submit, he
tould throw himself upon the
Hide out a case for inquiry, give
andl,. request it, if he
its support. He
°aid not conceive any pclunbirlyic, departmenttnnntn this country that
,‘ was more necessary for the House to examineisteofauldasitnsqeusisrieoninht
nail the General Yost-office. At the close
inquiree
came almost too
'ad brought forward this question, but
into the
trhee. Ste. He had asked for a Commission to
Wanner in which that establishment was managed.
lard to the complaints attached to the Genet al Post-office,
relieved that there was no public office in this country, agaih3e
',rich greater cause of dissatisfaction could be alleged. - The
'ftplainta were not only outside the walls of that department,
nit they existed en an alarming and discreditable extent
vithin its walls. ellte petition to which he was about to
:all the attention of the House, in order to have
t referred to a Committee, showed to him
11l sorts of mal-administration. The public complained of this
lepartmeat of the public service in consequence of the delay
the delivery of letters. He coi:ld prove that, but fur certain
94-practices going on in the office. the public would have
heir letters half.an-hour sooner in this city. There existed
11so a considerable amount of dissatisfaction in the office at the
nanner in which the officers were treated by their superiors,
Ind also at the manner in which the carriers and sorters were
'emunerated. If any subordinate officer had any complaint to
'flake to the Postmaster-General, he had no chance of reaching
he ears of that gentleman, because it had to go through certain
'hannela, where it would be misrepresented or stopped, so that
he men were afraid to make any complaint for fear of sus-
)ension. The petition to which he would call the attention
if the House was from Mr. Duncan. a gentleman of great
'espectability, and proprietor of the Sentinel newspaper. He
lad been at the trouble to examine the allegations contained in
that petition, and there was not one of them he was not pre-
pared to support and verify on evidence. Mr. Duncan had
given offence to the Post-office by some charge he had made
against them, and which appeared in Om Sentinel newspaper.
It was alleged that those statements were libellotr, and two
IkOons had been brought by Mr. Kelly, the superintendent of
L,
he letter-carrier department. One of the actions was brought
xa June last, and the result was,- that after being held in
abeyance for some time, thinking to alarm the proprietor of the
newspaper,Costi and hinder him from persevering in attack, the
were
paid, and the action was withdrawn. They thought
he
that
would
g shown this merciful consideration to Mr-. Duncan
not again molest them ; but he repeated his original
assertion, and a second action was brought, which action was
held over as long as it possibly could; the costs were again
paid, and it was withdrawn. If that action had been si ill pend-
Ills it would he his duty not to make any reference to the pre-
"at petition ; but as it had been abandoned, he was at liberty
to discuss any of the assertions contained. Mr. Duncan com-
Inenced by
.stating that there werecr dmany ibu'ses in the General
Post-office in Sr. Alartin's-le- —that complaints had been
held back—and that practice
hh,apaClescotntinued for many years.
improvement,
twhat he had said last
ne (Mr. Ducombe) was in
.but they had only
seal ivould have caused some
more hands, inefficient for tlioefir
he ban.drttheresre;
pat on a few
had been some improvement in the salary
but if the Post office authorities 'opposed thatttey were satis-
fied, fied, and that they were still to be oppressed,
mis-
taken. The petition stated that the principal they
in the delivery of letters was a private undertakinge 4'f
delay
Pffice, by some of the persons officially
Undertaking was called " Kelly's Post-office D' The
'rectory " and
be no hesitation in saying that it was a g,oss 'oh, Lid
employed ir it. The
the
he
Was ready to prove before a Committee that this private un-
dertaking converted a public establishment into a sort of lucra-
tive printing-office ; and en long as that undertaking remained,
se long would there be discontent in the establishment, and
and
corruption, oppression. and tyranny, and so long would the
public be injured. The petition stated that in the cum ilation
pi this Direc`ory the earners and sub-sorters were engaged
aario tie time in which they should be performing their
public duties, It would not do for the Government simply to
deny his assertion, yr to attempt to screen the parties, ter he
could prove that they were engage in this work during the
hale year round, and the ,rvantd i F the Post-office were
beginning to prepare the " Directory " for the year 1847. So
teach were the carriers and sorters occupied that, when the
tressure of public business made it necessary, the authorities
tent to Boswell-court, Chancery-Sane, wher? this work was pre-
get them back to the Post- office ; and th4s many
etters ',:-.APved. A strong instance of this occurred the
other day. It w.tas vats:: nown that this large book, for which
they paid 303., came out at the :',Grnr;;c:ocement of the year,
and there Was a t, Supplemental Directory, " which not
in March. He knew that on the day when this supplemental
Came out it was delivered io the letter-carriers, and the letters
were detained at the office half an hour ter the deliver) of this
Work. Letters and newspapers Lad lain in the cfnce for a
*kirk and ton days in consequence of the confusion attendant
up that work. The Indian mail had come in that
outing It had been delayed by the has of the Liver..

livery, at the same time taking care that due remuneration
was paid the deliverers, with a gradually increasing scale for
service fir the years employed. The letter-carriers ought also
in due course to be allowed to take the sub-sorters' place.
The whole thing should be placed on a better footing ; and if
a Committee were given him, and practical men—not men
interested in the prevalent abuses--examined, he had no
doubt a plan by which the system could be remedied might
be suggested. The early delivery, in his opinion, ought to be
done away with. The Post-office was established for the be.
nefit of the general public, and not fcr a small party.—( Hear,
hear.) One system should he made to work the same for all.
lle knew of a casein which a carrier took up the late and early
delivery at the same time, going up the street,
delivering the early letters for the privileged parties,
and delivering the late letters as he came down.
He would go up in the same house in Chancery-lane and de-
liver thei,ad the
early
tletters
lettersof on
et ho firstparty
thirdan d though
he floor,
because he happened to be a late de livery man, the letter-
carrier would Cary off his letters at a later part of the day
when he came down the street. Now, this proceeding, in-
dependent of its injustice, was against Act of Parliament,
and ought not to be
all ohees, and that whichai
eil. But the great complaint; above
requiredoft
ie o
t investigation,ove rnm eot wi
taos ,11
gta as this was a public departmentto be used for the privuantec,imbeht
interest of parties. In the returns
)had moved, setting forth the
3 a
-year, , and in that
efirn'rowluhfrikehntbean(rsarl buncombe)
of officersoft2o: the establishment, the sa-
lary
return of
3NI 1,..r..
K.
oe
y said
that on his y put down
at
appointment,
e Directory,
in which
chhe
purchased the copyright of the Post ()me
he had embarked a large private
iffiai
property,i and in publishing
which he had been suppir4t4edwabsy 1,2 resources.nditure and Mrre._
Kelly said that the total difference in the..
1,2761 4s ; he did not
ceipts of the Directory in lsi
say whether profit or lost, but he
merely mentioned
1,2761. That statement Mr. Duncan was
preparedwas ton not
trloevses
was untrue, and that the profits of the Directory
than 10,000/. a year. if they granted him (Mr. Duncombe)
the Committee, he would prove that instead of
frl,2T76h/i., 111r.suluar.
Kelly received from 12,0001. to 15,000/. a ye
was received, by Mr. Kelly, or certain parties connected with
him on the establishment. This was no error, but a wilful and
deliberate fraud to mislead this House and the public, and
if they shielded the delinquency, there was no use whatever in
moving for returns on any subject. He did not see, on con-
sideration of honor or interests of the public, how they could
examined,
avoid granting the Committee after svhatii heeh(aNdirsapidu.
buncombe)
fmNble)
r.
Kelly was called to the bar and
i in
was prepared to prove this. What use was
ie oer night
there,h intaisking for
returns if each returns as these were :..de. .
an error in the tariff was attributed to Mr • or, and it
Gre
was urged that a Committee of Inquiry should be° granted,
but it was found that the matter was a typograplca
ewrer,
roar,
to abned
consideredthe matter
waste paper,
let if
them returnsay
so, and he would not take any trouble in asking for them, but
merely' s
s
if they intended to act fairly and justly in this department of
the public service, they ought to grant him what he sought.
The great real-practices and abuses which existed ought to be
remedied, or at least inquired into. The statement he had
submitted showed that tyranny, injustice, and oppression pre-
vailed, producing a state of great dissatisfaetion, endangering
the commercial interests of the country. What state would
this great commercial town be placed in if no letters were de-
livered for one day; and that such a step had been contemplated,
and might yet be taken if such tyranny and injustice continued;
he was persuaded from information which he had received. This
all arose out of what he designated a gross job, for such he
een,idered the " Pest-office Directory" to be. The whole
place ought to be placed on.a r.ew footing, and if the Com-
mittee which he sought was appointed, he had no doubt some
plan would come out of it which would satisfy the public, and
satisfy ell parties concerned therein.—( Hear, hear.) The
Honourable Gentleman concluded by moving for a " Select
Committee to inquire into the allegations of the petition of Mr.
Jonathan Duncan, on the mal-administration of affairs in the
General Post-office."
Sir. WILLIAMS rose to second the motion. He knew the
gentleman whose neme was appended to the petition on which
the lime Member for Finsbury had founded his motion, and
he believed him to be a person of the highest honour, and
quite incapable of making any statement which he did not think
he was fully able to substantiate. A charge had been brough
forward by his I-lon. Friend, into which this House could not
refuse an inquiry. If they did otherwise, they proclaimed to
the eptintey that public servants were justified by Government
in the commission of a fraud on public property. There was
a charge that pubic property had been used for the private
interests of this individual, and he (Mr. Williams) said that
such a charge as this couid not he made, especially by a gentle-
Man who was so entitled to he heard as the petitipneri and
\T hen n that petitition, too, was presented by the Hon. Member
for Finsbury, who could always command the attention of the
House. without the Government's acceding to the motion. He
(Mr. Wiliiams) believed that there was no department con-
n6et,ed with the. GovernmetA that required mere looking after
than the, Post- effice. There had been a time, indced, when
the Post-office had been looked ue to for the correctness with

which things had been managed in that department, but that
ti me
.had now gone by. The Hon. Member for Finsbury said, that
the names for the Post-office Directory were procured by the let-
ter- carriers. He cculd substantiate this statement. Within the last
month the letter-carrier who was in the habit of leaving letters
at his door sent in a paper, and asked if that were his proper
address ? The letter-carrier might possibly have waited at his
door a quarter of an hour—possibly he might not; but, sup-
posing that he waited a quarter of an hour, and supposing also
that he had so waited at fifty doors before he came to his, why,
it would make his delivery at least an hour and a half later.
Formerly, when he (Mr. Williams) was connected with the
City, he used to pay the letter-carrier an extra fee, for the pur-
pose of getting his letters delivered shortly after nine o'cloek,
and he observed that his neighbours who did not pay did not
roceive their letters till after eleven. The Hon. Member for

Finsbury had pointed out to the House the many errors wkich
had found admission into the Directory, but how, he (Mr.
Williams) would ask, could it be otherwi,e when this individual
had the monopoly of it ? The public had no choice; they were
obliged to purchase it, for every competitor had been driven
from the field. Ile contended that where charges of this nature
sv re brought against any of the cfficers connected with any of
the public departments, a Committee to inquire into the truth
of these charges ought to be immediately granted ; and more
especially when a serious charge of this character—a charge of
fraud—of fraud on the public stores—was made ; he could not
conceive on what ground her Majesty's Government could re-
fuse inquiry. Even if the Right Hon. Gentleman the Under-
Secretary for the Treasury were to attempt a reply, he would
require to depend altogether for information upon the very in-
dividuals who were interested in the continuance of the system.
He would conclude by repeating that the petitioner was inca-
pable of making such a charge unless be was well aware that it
was perfectly true. The Hon. Member concluded by seconding
the motion.

The question having been put,
Mr. CARDWELL rose, and said that before he followed
the Hon. Member who had brought forward that petition into
the details that might be expected from him, the House would
perhaps allow him to make one or two preliminary observations.
And first he would assure the Hon. Member, not only on the
part of the Treasury, but also on the part of the Noble Lord
at the head of the Post-office Department, that no one among
the Postmasters-General who preceeded him would be less
ready to screen from exposure or from punishment any servant
guilty of mal- practices than would the Noble Lord who at
present filled that office.—(lronical cheericg from Mr. bun-
combe.) Tho Hon. Member might derisively cheer him, but
the Hon. Member when he did so seemed to forget two of the
very statements which he had made in his own speech that
evening. He forgot that, while saying that the subordinates in
the Post-office were prevented by dread of the consequences
from addressing their superiors, and while admitting that he
himself, on being questioned as to the propriety of their sub-
mitting a memorial to their superiors, advised them to be cau-
tious in doing so, that they told him that they were ready to
come in a body of two or three hundred for the purpose of ex-
pressing their indignation at the practices which it was alleged
were embodied in this petition. Now the Hon. Member for
Finsbury would excuse him for saying that when persons to the
number of two or three hundreds were so ready to come for-
ward for the purpose of attacking their superiors, there was no
reason why they should not instead have addressed themselves
by a respectful memorial to the Government, or to the Noble
Lord at the head of the department, stating their grievances,
and expressing their confident hope that those grievances
would be redressed.—(Cheers, ironical cheers, and cries of
" Oh, oh.") He was not to be put down by mere cheering
from the Members opposite. He would repeat that if the
subordinates in the Post-office had produced such a memorial,
and if they had addressed it to the head of their department,
their grievances would have been attended to. He (Alr. Card-
well) had the honour of receiving scores of memorials in the
department to which he had the honour to belong, and if these
memorials were respectfully worded, he would not dare to stand
before the Hon. Member and the House, if such memorials had
been overlooked or neglected by the particular department with
which he was connected. He would say then, and he thought
the House would believe him, that the Government were as
anxious as the Hon. Member to punish mal-practices of this sort,
and he could affirm that the doors of the Treasury were always
open through the medium of the Post-office, and if any Hon.
Member of that House could prove that a memorial received
in that manner, had been neglected, then indeed good ground
could be shown of complaint against that department. The
Hon. Gentleman towards the close of his speech, referred to a
subject which had afforded matter for some little controversy
between himself, and the Hon. Member at the close of the
last session of Parliament, namely, the early delivery. He
perhaps ought not to refer to that matter, because it formed no
part of the allegation in the petition. He had the hononr of
stating on a former occasion, that the payment of letter-carriers
by the office for the early delivery was no part of the engage-
ment entered into by that depariment. It was held by them
as an ancient right, which had been continued, because a large
portion of the mercantile community received a credit from the
letter-carriers, which the Post-office could not give them, and
which must create a little confusion if it were at once with-
drawn. That was the ground on which the early delivery was
defended during the last session of Parliament. It was not
defended as a convenience to the Post-office subordinates, but
as a convenience to the merchants in London. If the Hon.
Member for Finsbur., could produce an instance of any ger.-
tleman living up three pair of stairs, in Chancery lane, whose
letters had been detained tit' a later period of the day, while
his neighbours upon the first and second floors had been deli-
vered in the morning (because they were included in the early
delivery) if the Hon. Member would produce such a case.
Mr. DUNCOMBE—Give me the Committee, and I will
do so.

Mr. CARDWELL said that the Hon. Member seemed to
infer that he asked him to withdraw his motion for a Commit-
tee. The Hon. Member had quite mistaken him if he enter-
tained this idea for a moment. All he meant to say was, that
if any gentleman had felt himself aggrieved by the system at
present pursued by the Post-office, it would give as little trou-
ble to send a letter to the Treasury, or to the authorities at the
Post-office, and he (Mr. Cardwell) would undertake to say
that the representations from such a letter would be attended
to.—( Hear, hear.) He would not stand there and say that
such a case as that instanced by the Hon. Member for Fins
bury had never existed ; but he would say with confidence,
that the superior officers of the Government were always open
to receive any communications, and ever ready to put a period
to such mal-practices as those alluded to by the Hon. Member.
He (Mr. Cardwell) could not understand how any one could
rise in that House to answer matters of which they had had no
previous notice, otherwise than as he had done—namely, by
stating that the Government would be always found anxious
to terminate such abuses. Now, having so far disposed of the
early delivery, he would venture to turn to that which formed
the gravemen of the Hon. Member's charge—namely, the
" Post-office Directory." He would explain what this "Di-
rectory" was, and thon give a short sketch of its history.
Having done so, he would proceed to meet the charges of the
Hon. Member. The fact was that the metropolis was divided
int ) a great number of wards for letter-carriers, and the House
would readily admit, that an absolute necessity existed for the
Post-office authorities having correct information of the names
of persons whom the letter-carriers would have to serve. He
would ask, how was this information to be collected, except-
ing by each letter-carrier within his own district? ft so hap-
pened, and he had no doubt it would be made a feature in the
debate, that the forms used in the Post-office had a heading,
"1 he Post-office Directory." Of course it was not essential
to the business of the Post-Office, that there should be such a
heading to the forms, but it was absolutely necessary, he con-
tended, that the names should be so collected by the letter-
carriers. There were certain officers in the Post-office, desiga
nated check-takers, and there were twenty letter-carriers under
each cheek-taker. The check-taker had to hand over to
his superior the number of names handed in by
each letter-carrier—that superior filling the same situation
which Mr. Kelly now held. This was information which must
be collected as it was now, unless they wished to destroy the
existence of the " Post-office Directory" altogether. He
would now, with the permission of the House, proceed very
shortly to trace the history of the publication which had been
so often referred to. A Mr. Sparkes, who held a situation in
the Post-office, thought that he was in possession of information
to which others could not lay claim, namely, the names of
those who were at that time in business in London. This was
was some century ago, and Mr. Sparkes applied to the Post-
master-General of that day for permission to publish a
Directory, which was granted. Mr. Crichett succeeded to
Mr. Sparkes, and the work was published under the anthority
of the Postmaster-General, and so continued until the year
1830, when Mr. Critchett died, and Mr. Kelly succeeded to
the office which he now held. Mr. Kelly wished to continue
the publication of the Directory, but Lord Litchfield, who
was then at the head of the department, thought it right to
consult the Solicitor-General upon the matter, as there were
some arrangements to be entered into between the widow of
Mr. Critchett and his successor. After consulting with the
legal officer of the Crown, an arrangement was entered into by
which Mr. Kelly paid a sum of money to the widow of Mr.
Critchett, and so stood in the position in which that gentleman
was placed in regard to the Directory. That an angemeut
having been effected, a very great amount of expense was in-
curred in the publication. The name of Mr. Robson had been
mentioned in connexion with the work, and some severe anim
adversious had been made against Mr. Kelly in respect of Mr.
Robson's death, from the pressure of distress. He (Mr. Card-
well) was not aware that Mr. Kelly had been thus guilty, but
that had been as far back as 1840, since which
time a Committee of this House had sat on
the subject of the Post-office. In the last session
of Parliament an Hon. Member had moved for certain
returns relative to that department, and in these returns cer-
tain sums of money had been entered by Mr. Kelly, as the
sums received by him as the produce of the Directory. The
correctness of that sum had been questioned, however, by the
Hon. Member for Finsbury, who stated that he was prepared to
prove that a much larger sum had been received. He (Mr.
Cardwell) had instituted inquiries into the subject, and from
the information furnished by Mr. Bockenham and others, he
was perfectly satisfied that the correct sum had been returned,
n t.
Ta
and he did not think that that sum was in any degree too large
considering the capital embarked, the amount of labour
required,
allowingH on ne.Membero t
hr circumstance
other
for F
fair remuneration
s
bto whichd h
ur tio theth ae
twtnhuedelay
c
publisher.laaly
atNhdevwerthere washn d
e
n
attention of the House, but to which he would only shortly
in the post delivery, was to be mainly
ascribedto the employ-
ment of letter-carriers'in obtaining information for the Dire" ry
The Hon. Gentleman had said the publication of thellll.
rectory delayed the delivery of the public letters. Certainly
no such delay ought to take place ; and he, for one, believed it
did not. The Hon. Gentleman, however mentioned a parti-
cular case where delay had occurred ; but the Hon. Gentle.
man was wrong in his prediction of the cause of the delay.
The lion. Gentleman complained that the publication of the
last Directory occasioned a delay of ten days in the deli-
veryby the Great Liverpool, fromsuggested
Gweansenr
aolt a
n d quitehi
si
secretarym oss ble
werethi
of the letters whil,benatmehep(a3rtir.ofc the way
ofs
this nature to com-
plaind grievances
open to all parties who had cthoueldHbone.soll.lemibheer
pwhosettmilearsteirt.
have been no lack of remonstrances
taken place there would
City, who were in the habit
from the influential parties in the
y! He happened to be
of, and he was quite confident if any such delay had
of receiving letters by the Indian mail.
_o_
delay, and if the [lon. Gentleman
The fact was,
so, he would tell him what really did occur.
acquainted with the circumstances owfouth
ldis
ppearmruictuiliairmcatsoe
do
the letters of the Great. Liver' col were so wet that it took the
servants of the Post-offier, a very considerable time, indeed, in
carefully separating aiai sorting them ; and he admitted that
some delay, though by no means so much as ten days, did
take place before they were ready for delivery. This
explanation had been given to all parties interested
in the matter, and he was not aware that
any one of them had expressed himself dissatisfied with it.—
( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman, after expressirg his
regret that this subject had not been fully inquired into after
the discussion of last session, remarked that some slight change
had been mare in the situation of the sub-scrters, whose sala-
ries were raised on the very morning of the day when it was
thought he would being forward his motion. But he (Mr.
Cardwell) assured the Hon. Gentleman that the Beard of
Treasury, in taking this step, were in no degree influenced by
the anticipated motion of the Hun. Member. Another of the
Hon. Gentleman's complaints was, that the communications
were made to Mr. Kelly by the deliverers in official hours;
and the Hon. Gentleman who seconded the motion followed
this up, by declarint; that collecting the reileirej infaroption
Gueneaa e d
are
of etihvei.icifaecetabtlehat
let-
ters. Both Honourable Pseatlk'irien, bettever, wereperhaps
,lenihYethiehr Atifire. D delivery oirf tory were published or not, it would be irnpcs ible to carry on the
business cf
at hthe Pi Without its officers collecting the
Post
—(Hear hear.) Another
statement made in the netitionp'
w Ist i o eo.nd one which had some colour
f

of truth was, that the sorters were sometimes employed upon
the Directory at the office of Mr. Kelly. This was formerly
111 the case, but it was not so now. But even then it was
optional with the sorters to perform or refuse the services,
while, if they consented, they were remunerated for what they
did.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman hal expressd a
hogo.p,sei
dt he
raat t
ieorne
olfo
tnltahe ut
hori
tsubjecties ;
and, perhaps,
ctom e uni
it
under
wouldtli e seriousbe g r
gra-
tifying tifying to the lion. Gentleman to know that the subject had
already been carefully looked into by the late and present Post-
master-General ; and it was now optional with the sorters and
deliverers to engage themselves or not in collecting informa-
tion for the Directory. But both the Noble Lords at the head
of the department were decidedly convinced that it was a por-
tion of the deliverers' and sorters' duty to collect the informa-
tion for the purposes of the office itself. Believing, then, that
the information of the Hon. Gentleman was erroneous, and
that while the heads of the Post-office department were open
directly to appeals to remedy abuses, no such appeals had been
made, he thought it was a sufficient guarantee that neither the
Treasury nor the Post-office authorities were deserving of
censure ; and he, therefore, hoped the House would negative
the motion of the Hon, Gentleman.
Mr. MOFFATT supported the motion for an inquiry. It
was a matter of fact that individuals residing in London did
not receive their letters in the morning till many hours after
they night be delivered, if there was a proper system of manage-
ment of the Post-office. He could not see how his Right
Hon. Friend opposite could have any grounds for the refusal
of the Committee. He should have conceived that if
the abuses complained of by his Hon Friend the Member for
Finsbury did not exist, his Right Hon. Friend opposite
should be anxious to have the Committee of Inquiry appointed
so that the groundlessness of the charges might be made
manifest.--( Hear, hear.) He himself felt no doubt that the
public would feel much satisfaction if the Committee asked for
were granted. It was confidently anticipated when the great
change tcok place in the Post-office. department that many of
the glaring abuses which then existed would have been re-
moved, but after all it appeared, from the facts laid before the
House by the 1-lon. Member for Finsbury, that the greater
portion of them still existed, and that even the evils which had

been removed would not have been so removed had it not been
for the many complaints that had been made to the Post, office
authorities, the letters that appeared in the different newspapers,
&e. One of the main grounds of the restoration of the revenue
represented at the time that the great change that took place
in the Post-office was the great increase of facilities which
would be afforded to the public in the delivery of their letters.
And still, it appeared that almost the whole of the old delays
existed as heretofore, and would continue to exist if the public
voice was not raised in a manner too strong to be resisted by
the Post-office authorities. He found that after some of the
old delays and abuses which existed in the Post-office, with re-
gard to the delivery of letters in the metropolis had
been removed, in consequence of the loud and continued com-
plaints of the public there was an increase of letters delivered
by the letter-carriers in London alone, in the following
year of 1,800,000 ; being an increase of nearly fifty per cent. ;
and there was scarcely a town where there had been increased
facilities in the delivery of letters where there had not been a
corresponding increase. But still there was a general com-
plaint throughout the kingdom that the Post-office authorities
were exceedingly slow in their operations ; and, in his opinion,
they had a perfect right to make such complaints. They had
at present in London the old system of twopenny postage which
caused a vast outlay and waste of money, and which proved
nything but efficient. If the Post-office were properly
managed, letters that were to be delivered in the morning, should
be delivered before nine o'clock within even four miles of the
ity, whereas at present they were not delivered before half-
past ten. Then there was the absurd regulation as to the
limitation of weight to be carried by the Post-office, the weight
being at present limited to fifteen ounces, than which
nothing could be more ridiculous. There were also many
other abuses which might be brought to light before
a Committee of the House. There was one regulation
about the superannuation of the sub-sorters, who were com-
pelled to subscribe to a superannuation fund. That he be-
lieved was also another of Mr. Kelly's regulations. No ac-
count was delivered to the subscribers of the sum in hand on

their account. When their late treasurer died, they expected
a very large sum would have been on hand, but when they ap-
plied to Mr. Kelly they were informed that there was no more
than 701. available for the purposes for which it had been sub.
scribed. The Post-office was managed in a slovenly way, and
he had no doubt that if a Commit tee were appointed the result
would be a very material improvement—(Hear, hear)—because
he was quite satisfied that some of the allegations made by the
lion. Member for Finsbury were true, and capable of proof.
He could say more upon this subject, but, not wishing to detain
the flute, he would content himself by simply stating in con
elusion that he most cordially supprted the motion of the Hon.
Member for Finsbury.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. PROTHEROE said that the House and the country
should know more than they did at present of the ovrations of
Mr. Kelly, who, it appeared, employed by contract the greater
portion of those engaged in the metropolitan Post-office. From
the statements made by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, it ap-
peared that the letter- carriers were employed twelve hours in
the day, and that it was impossible for him to deliver the
letters put into his charge earlier than he did. Their re-
muneration, too, it appeared was exceedingly low, and they
,eceived remuneration from parties to whom they delivered
in the better walks of the metropolis, with the sanction of
the Post-office authorities; in fact, heir salaries were re-
duced in consideration of those perquisites. He thought that
much good would result from the inquiry which might take
place before the Committece, _

Mr. BROTHERTON was glad to have this opportunity
of publicly complaining of the gross abuses which existed in
the Post-office. He found that they had sent down into
Manchester a numb T of agricultural labourers as letter-car-
riers—men that could scarcely either read or write, and
who further knew nothing about the streets of Manchester.
The consequence was, that several mistakes had occurred in
the delivery of the letters.—(Hear, hear.) This was one of
the many abuses which at present existed in the Post-office,
and he hoped that the House would give every facility to the
carrying out of the motion of the Hon. Member for Einsbury.
Mr. CHRISTIE believed that there was an impression very
prevalent in the minds of the public, that there existed a most
pitiful jobbery in the disposal of the Post-office patronage, and he
also believed that no one could gainsay the fact that the
abuses in that department were exceedingly great. If the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite really felt that there was no
ground for the allegations of the Hon. Member who had
made the motion now before the House, what objection could
he have to the appointment cf the Committee sought for?
The Right Hon. Members on the Treasury benches seemed to
be jealous of the Hon. Member for Finsbury ou this occasion.
It appeared that the individuals employed in the Post-office
had, instead of waiting upon them, presented their memorial
to the Hon. Member for Finsbury, praying him to do his ut-
most to remove the abuses of which they complained. The
Hon. Member for Finsbury had made specific charges against
certain parties connected with the Post-office, in reply to
which the Right Hon. Gentleman said, " I am informed that
those charges are not true ;" but let that Right Hon. Gentle-
man say who was his informant.—(Hear, hear.) During the
speech of his Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, he (Mr.
Christie) observed the Chancellor of the Exchequer leave his
place very often, and go down to parties who sat on the cross
benches by the privilege of the House, who, for all he (Mr.
Christie) knew, were Mr. Kelly and the other officials of the
Post- office.—( Hear, hear.) Now, if the Post-office were
carried on in so praiseworthy and immaculate a manner as had
been represented, what objections could the Right Hon. Gen-
tlemen on the Treasury benches have to the appointment of
the Committee, which would, if their statements were true,
clear their friends of the Post-office from the allegations of the
Honourable Member for Finsbury? The public were
entitled to have a most searching inquiry insti-
tuted into the truth or otherwise of the allegations.
made that night against the Post-office authorities. It had
been stated that such an inquiry had been instituted, but none
of that evidence had been published, and how were the public
to know the manner in which the parties examined were cross-
examined, &c. In reply to the allegation of his lion. Friend
as to the mal-practices in the delivery of letters in the neigh-
bourhood of Chancery-lane, the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site said that as soon as the facts were made known to the
Post-office authorities they were removed, but it was under the
fostering care of the Post-office authorities themselves that
those mal-practices had sprung up ; and he, therefore, conceived
that the whole management of the Post-office should be in-
quired into and remodelled. He considered that all the letter-
carriers had to do was to deliver letters as they were directed.
He considered that private enterpise would be sufficient to col-
lect the requisite informationn contained in the Directory. He
could not conceive how the parties implicated in these alle-
gations could hold up their heads if they did not come forward
and ask this House to inquire into the matter complained of.
Mr. F. BARING said the real question for the consideration
of the House was not the necessity of instituting an inquiry
into the general management of the Post-office, but for the
appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the
allegations of the petition. There was no allegation in that
petition relating either to early or late delivery, or to the
necessity of having two different sets of letter-carriers. Many
of the suggestions thrown out by Hon. Members were no doubt
very good. He never knew any public office in which im-
provements might not be made, and he would be glad to see
the Post-office authorities introduce any beneficial alterations.
He was glad to see the improvements lately introduced in the
delivery of the Brighton letters, by which the town of
Brighton was brought within the range of twopenny post.
From a return lately made to that House, it appeared that
many considerable additions had been made in the Post-office
establishment, the increased labours having rendered
necessary increased assistance. With reference to the alle-
gations contained in the petition, be had great doubt of the
expediency of leaving a work like the Directory" in the
hands of private individuals, He believed that it contained
much very valuable and necessary information. If the
work, however, should be taken out of Mr. Kelly's hands, he
considered that gentleman was entitled to a compensation.
He thought that the statement of the Secretary of the Treasury,
Mr. Cardwell, was worthy of some consideration.; his state-
ments were not merely denials; they had locked over the books
of Mr. Kelly, in corroboration of his statements. The
Honourable Member for Coventry stated that
Honourable Member
for Finsbury stood very high, but
high might be the character of
the character of the
that ground attack the
he (Mr. Baring)
anydi did n
Ho to
nc 711
As de emr
bt
ehra: ,h he oswheovuel rd
upon
character of gentlemen who had been for a number of years
good public servants. He saw no reason whatever from the
statements of the Hon. Member for Finsbury for inquiry into
the alleged charges. He thought that, even in matters of mis-
conduct of public servants, the inquiry would be conducted in a
far better manner if left in the hands of the heads of the Go-
vernment, than if attempted to be inquired into by Hon.
Members of that House.
Mr. WA KLEY had been considering in his own mind what
would be the probable course of conduct pursued by those
parties who had been connected with official duties, upon a
question relating to the misconduct of a public officer.
He had always found that when any complaint was brought
against a public officer, members connected with the
Government, sitting upon either side, spoke and voted to_
;ether. Hon. Members on his side of the Honse seemed to
think that if the present inquiry was granted it might, Tv,
haps, go back to the period in which they were in ofCe"
He considered it absurd to call the statement mada by the
a satisfactory answer; an
Secretaries of the Treasury.
answer
It might be, but a refutation it certainly was not. If that
House failed to inquire into such allegations as those con-
tained in the petition, the functions of the Parliament, Its
the inquests of the people, would be immediately at ass fld.
The people of England would not consider that their represen_
tatives had faithfully performed tha duties devolved upon them
they
dig thiy, and
hifadthheeyar d wereiro
from
to t
hrest
osvaetritnsedut.withH
He
uucash
in a relaythe hab
ofit
ceiving many thousands of letters in the course of
he had scarcely to make one complaint '4o the course of the
year. He considered the duti::3 connected with the Post-office
to be laborious, difficult, and intricate. He thought it was a
wonderful, most astonishi,ning institution, and no person could
reflect upon the exactness and punctuality of the :-without being struck with astonishment at the wonderfurMano
ner in which the duties were performed. tie believed the
" Directory" to bs most invaluable to the public. lie should
regret to see it discontinued, and he only, regretted
connected with the publiptino 04 1444t.w0rk:
implicatrd sipdiss6l•eo.ble '4 4:ll'.uais person
inat which
had
,
given rise to the present do h
e--
Hear,
01 a most serious character had been brought against
the heads of the Post-office. Great numbers of the subordi-
nates had been to Isis Hon. Colleague, and had made most
....,usSion.—( ear. ) Charges
grievous complaints to him of tyrannical usage. Could the
House, then, refuse to accede to the inquiry ? His Hon. cola
leage had moved for a return some time since, from which it
' appeared that the income of a gentleman connected with the

"Directory" was 1,2761., whereas he (Mr. Duncombe) had
stated, that if the Committee was granted, he should be able
to prove that the income was not less than 10,000/. a year.
The petitioner in the present case came forward, not
a 3 a person having received private injuries, but upon
purely public grounds, and states in his petition that public
property was used for private purposes. If the motion of his
Hon. Colleague was not acceded to, the people would think
that to serve a certain purpose connected with the Govern-
ment the motion had been refused. He was surprised that the
Government should refuse so reasonable a motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
the Hon. Member who had just sat down had stated that when
any Hon. Member connected with that House made a state
ment of misconduct of any public officer it was the duty of
Parliament to inquire into the circumstances, and stated as an
issitance of the necessity of that inquiry that an officer in
the Post-office had stated that his income arising from the sale
of the " Directory" was 1,200/. a year; and so because the
Hon. Member for Finsbury had stated it to be 12,0007., there
fore we should institute an inquiry into the subject. He
thought the Hon. Member (.llr. Wakley) was too well
acquainted with the bookselling trade not to perceive at once
that if there was an exaggeration in the statement the proba.
bility was that it would have been upon the side of the larger
amount. From his experience in the bookselling trade he
thought such would be his conclusion. He further asked whether
Hon. Members were to be content with a mere denial. The
statement of his Hon. Friend, the Secretary of the Treasury,
was founded upon the report of two persons who had been ap-
pointed to examine the books of Mr. Kelly, the result of that
examination being that the statements of Mr. Kelly were es-
sentially correct. He would ask, what better course could be
adopted to inquire into the truth of any statement or transac-
tion other than had been adopted in the present case? He had
said what was perfectly true, they executed the most laborious
duties in the most wonderful manner. But when he made
that admission that it was not to-day or yesterday, but through
a long period of time, when the modes of conveyance were
daily changing, that these exertions were satisfactorily carried
out,heiswhowoln
1 o impliednee
of Gentleman,hiscaser
thatin
th
department was in a state of distraction and rebelion7-ready to
strike—in order to prevent the delivery of letters. The Hon.
statement,cerd a thatcontradiction
Gentleman must have been convinced that the fact of the i
manner in which these complaints were made was an answer
to the greater part of them. It was a very popular
doctrine that when a complaint was made that the
House of Commons were bound to inquire into it ;
but they ought not to admit the doctrine in the fullest sense to
which it could be strained ; but that when all other means
were exhausted, then it should be competent to apply to the
House of Commons. The letter-carriers had a door open to
them, to have their grievances redresed, and the facts ascer-
tained. It was not probable that they had been afraid to apply
to Lord Lonsdalo or Lord St. Germans.—(" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Duncombe.) He believed the allegation that they

were afraid was without foundation; at least there could be no

fear on their part in bringing their complaints under the cog-
nisance of the Treasury. His Hon. Friend had stated that if
any malversation had taken place in the department, that the
Treasury were always open to listen to complaints. If the
House granted a Committee on every complaint which was
made to it, they would draw upon themselves an endless
labour. The Hon. Member for Portsmouth had so fully de-
fended the conduct of those who were principally en-
gaged in the business of this department that it would
not be necessary for him to add anything to it. His
knowledge was more intimate than his, for he had
never seen Mr. Bottenham, but he knew that he
carried with him the respect of all that knew him, or had any
dealings with him. They had a proof of it is the testimony
of the Hon. Gentleman. He had earned the respect of per-
sons coming into the department without any prepossession
vthatevcr. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would not
enter intothe general merits of the Post-office ; he said there
had been more delay than necessary in cam ing into execution
the improvements decided on, but great improvements were
going on from day to day, and if there had been latterly some
delay, it arose simply from the fact of the large accumulation
of letters, which had rendered some large additions to the Post-
offie, but those enlargements were now completed, and the de-
iay would consequently cease. He considered that he had said
enough upon the motion before the House, and he thonght
they would be hardly inclined to embark in an investigation
where even there was no allegation that the proper mode of
redress had been attempted. If the House adopted the
principle of inquiring into whatever an individual might state
connected with his department, without in the first place
giving an opportunity to the responsible Government of the
country to inquire into the subject, he could see no limit to
the Committees which the House might appoint, and if there
was no other reason for opposing the motion, he confessed that
would be suffieient to his mind.

Air. B. ESCOTT—Reference had been made to an inquiry
which had taken place at the Post-office some years ago. His
recollection of what passed then was, that he never heard a
more intelligent or honest witness than Mr. Bottenham. There
was at that time a very strict inquiry made into the regulations
of the Post-office, and so satisfied were the Committee with

the management, and the fair dealing of the persons connected
with the different departments, that those who were most hos-
tile at the commencement of the inquiry, were most ready in
making a favourable report. Though he honoured the Hon.
Member for Finsbury for his advocacy of the injured, it did
appear to him that he had not a good cause to contend with,
seeing that it was only a squabble between a newspaper editor
and a conductor of a Post-office Directory, who thought proper
to blame Mr. Kelly. He had no doubt that if an inquiry were
granted, it would lead to no good result ; and if it were re-
sisted, he would vote against it, bearing in mind the result of
the former one, of which he had been a member. In fine, he
considered that it was unworthy the character of the House in
a dispute, which, after all, was only one between a newspaper
editor and the proprietor of a Post-office Directory.
Mr. T. S. DUN COMBE said he had no doubt that Mr.
Bottenham was a most intelligent witness, and it was because
that he considered him so that he wished very much to have
him, and he should very much like to have the Hon. Member
himself. examined, to state what he knew of the regulations
of the Post-office ; and with respect to this being a mere
squabble between a newspaper editor and the proprietor of a
Directory, the Hon. Member could not have heard his
statements. He could not have heard the allegation that, only
for the private business of Mr. Kelly, letters would be de-
livered an hoar and a half earlier. It was no light
matter that when returns had been ordered by that
House, that they should be made false. But all that was
nothing; it was all merely a Post-office squabble. If this were
pesmitted, it would be perfectly childish in the House to move
for such returns, when they were to bo falsified. He did not
wonder at the course taken by the Honourable Gentleman.
Why, the first was, that it was the duty of public men, both
present and past, to screen public delinquency. If they con-
sidered that he could not prove his charges, they would
jump at the opportunity his motion afforded them to obtain
praise, but it was because they felt confident that errors
did exist, that they refused this inquiry. When
eharges were made against the Poor-law
Commissioners, why did they not say to them, " Go to the offi-
cers, before you come to us."—(Hear, hear.) He said before
what he would again repeat, that he believed that every allega-
tion in that petition was true. Would their slighting it satisfy
the public? The Right Hon. Gentleman himself admitted
that he considered that a better arrangement might be effected,
When the packet list was published at the Post-office, it was
resolved that it should be published at the lowest possible rate,
and that the profit, if any, should be carried to the revenue.
This proceeding had been carried into effect. Now let the
Post-office Directory" be treated in the same manner,
and if it can be published at 12s. 6d., instead of
thirty shillings, let the public have the benefit of it, or let it
be published at the latter price, and let the amount of profit
go to remunerate the poor Post-office subordinates. He did
his duty in presenting the petition, and calling the attention
of the House to the subject, and he now left it to the House
to decide between himself and the Right Hon. Baronet,
whether or not the Committee should be granted.
The House then divided, when the numbers were,
For the motion 49
Against it
Majority —43
IRISH RAILWAY BILLS

On our re admission to the gallery, we found
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN moving, that with a view to dimi-
nish the inconvenience and expense now incurred in carrying
through Parliament Bills for the construction of railways in
Ireland, it is expedient that, in the case of Irish Railway Bills,
all such inquiries as are now conducted in London by Com-
mittees of both Houses of Parliament, should, after the termi-
nation of the present session, take place in Ireland. The ex-
penditure of the last and the present session, with respect to
the conduct of private Bills through that House, was such as
to make every one in Ireland dissatisfied with the present mode
of procedure. The enormous expense, inconvenience, and
delay which resulted from the system of discussing the merits
of private Bills before Committees of that House, was so great
as to necessitate a change like that which he proposed. The
expenses incurred by bringing witnesses from every part of Ire-
land, engaging counsel, agents, and other persons in
this country, would be entirely obviated; but it
was not a question of expense merely, it was a
question of convenience. He found that in the last session of
Parliament the Bills which were introduced on the 10th of
February did not receive the Royal Assent till the 21st of
July, a period of four or five months, and the general result
notwithstanding the delay was a most enormoes expenditure.
He should be glad if the Hon. Baronet would lay before the
House the different memorials he had received en the subject.
He would ask the English Members if they were satisfied with
the manner in which the Railway Bills were conducted. It
was impossible that so many Bills could be investigat!d
properly. They amounted: to over seven hundred__ in the
present session, and the labour imposed upon Members was
very
great. Members of that House were taken away from
their higher duties and sent for days and weeks to sit on Rail-
way Committees, whereas they might be better employed in
the discharge of more important functions. He slid not be-
lieve that Members of that House were bound to sit on Com-
mittees for private Bills. There was nothing to compel them
to do so more than a mere resolution of that House, and he
should doubt that such a resolution was strictly binding
till he should hear it so stated by some high authority in that
House. He could see no difficulty in allowing the 'Railway
Bills 0/ Ireland to be conducted by Committees in that country.
He thought the Government might appoint a Commission of
five gentlemen-,one to be a counsel of high legal character,
and the others to be civil and military engineers of acknow,
ledged scientific attainments. They could report tg the o-
vernment, and the parties could then be eiltitled to an appeal
to that House. If the House shotikl adopt the principle, he
would then be for inelnding all classes of Irish private Bills ill the qualificatiqn of the Commission.
Mr. F. FRENCH seconded the motion. He considered
that the expenditure incurred in carrying /tills for public works
in Ireland should be spent in that country. It was an amount
of some consequence I for he found that the expenses of even
an unopposed Rill came as high as seven or eight hundred
pqmodli, knd such expenditure was taken film Ireland ; na,
at the same time, the pasties were put to great
inconvenience by having to attend the carrying
of the Bills through Committee in this country.
The flop. Member then went into a detailed description of
the eperation of the Grand Jury Act. Ro said, if it was de-
termined on that the existence of a road was necessary, the ap-
plication was laid before the grand Jury, and then the county
surveyor was wiledupon to decide which was the best line of
road, and tg lay it out, and then his plan was to be submitted
tq a fulare road sessions, and in that way the fiscal business of
the country was carried on. .net With regard to the fiscal
business of the country ganeresny, he begged to observe that it
was carried on for the great part by Hon. Members from Ire-
pdt v(110 Vero Obliged to attend their Parliamentary deitiestore 'also, and in illustration of which he would just state that,
since the present session commenced, he bad been obliged to
cross the Channel four times 3while here, the duties were dis-
charged in a different manner. Well, then he would wish to
call attention next to the enormous expense to which the Irish
'raise were put in endeavouring to carry Et railway ; and he
felt assured he did not exaggerate when he stated that the Par-
liamentary expenses alone of the smallest line in Ireland could
not be less than 1040001. Ig the fast place, the parties were
But to a great deal of -
ad nnt a
expense in the House of Lorda that they
..o encounter in the House of Ciaosnaons. In the
case
of standing orders alone the parties had-to come over here and
then go back to Ireland and come here again, and then go
back ;gain ; and so on, again and again, in the
most unnecessary and annoying manner—andtlaus the et:
pense was most unnecessarily increased. liea
in-
stance recently where the parties had passed the
he ofH noouseeof
Commons' standing orders, and when they went up to tbo
House of Lords they had to remain three weeks before they
were heard. He contended, then, that all the difficulties had
been thrown in the way by the House of Lords,and that there we;