The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-23 00:00:00

RAILWAY COMMITTEES.

"that," and to add the words "the investment of each mem-
ber shall be employed for the sole benefit of the person
investing, or for his children, or kin, and that no
party shall give his investment for the relief,
maintenance or endowment of any other person
or member whatever." That addition would make the in-
vestment the property of the parties subscribing, or their
relatives.
After some observations from Mr. RUTHERFORD, which
did not reach the gallery,
Sir J. GRAHAM, in reply, said that he was perfectly will-
ing to admit the right of persons to combine against their
employer for higher wages, and under the existing con-
bination laws every facility was given to them. He was
willing to give every facility to those friendly societies to
come under the sanction of the law. They would be strong
bodies, with large funds, which, by the indulgence of the
law, bore a high rate of interest ; and their funds might -be
directed to the purpose of holding out, under the strife
with their employers, for a considerable length of time.
He conceived that the insertion of the words which he had
proposed was quite necessary to render the abuses which
might take place under the present law impossible.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL supported the insertion of
the clause proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary
of State for the Home Department. It was perfectly clear
that some such regulation was necessary.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said that what he had proposed was
that if the member of a society wished to retire from it he
should hive the privilege of transferring his rights, not to a
stranger to the society, or to one that was inimical to the
interests of the society, but to another member of the society,
or to a relative. Nothing would be so pernicious, fatal, or
injurious to these societies as to give them anything of a
gambling or speculative character such as that which had
been proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. ' But
he did not want to mix up the question of stock jobbing
with that of these societies. The. Right Honourable
Gentleman had admitted that his object in introducing
this Bill was to make illegal all strike associations.
He had admitted at the same time that it was perfectly
legal for masters and men to combine for the purpose of
settling wages. The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman
opposite had said that he bad never seen the rules or regula-
tions of any society by which a party subscribing to a
society, was disabled from withdrawing his investments ; but
in point of fact, he (Mr. Duncombe) had then before him
the rules of a society held in the very borough which the
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman represented, which en-
abled any member to do so; but that was a saving
society or a saving bank. It was true that a subscriber to
a friendly society could not withdraw his investments. All
he could do was to transfer his interests to another individual.
And he agreed that it was right to prevent them from with.
drawing their investments. But when the Right Hon.
Gentleman said that those parties should be prevented
from dispoeingof their funds to the supporting of parties that
had struck for wages, he conceived that the Legislature had
such purposes,
aa
mfaaair dhaayd'sa
no right whatever to say that men should be
revented from
right
ahftpatiar dcoamy'bsinweorfak.r
wpeargfeectforri
purposes, and that to deprive him of such a right was
illegal. Rules of societies in which there • •
made for the support of parties
outon was
strike a provision
certified by Mr. Tidd Pratt, because that Learned
Gentleman knew that such an object was perfectly.
legal. He contended that this Bill was calculated to cir-
cumscribe, in a very material degree, the operation of the
present law with regard to friendly societies ; at all events,
it would very much limit the privileges of the members of
such societies. With regard to the decision of Mr. Justice
Wightman, on the point alluded to in the course of this de-
bate, he might state that the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-
General had stated that that decision was entirely- wrong,
and that the decision could not be maintained if it were
appealed against. The opinion of the Solicitor-General was
that Friendly Societies, in whose rules there was a provision
for the support of members out on strike, had every right to
be certified and enrolled, because, as he and Sir Charles
Wetherell had stated in their written opinion, such a purpose
was perfectly legal. The fact of these societies
having applied for permission to be enrolled showed
that they wished to come under the operation of the
law. He felt quite confident that if the clause proposed by
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Horne
Department was adopted, it would impose very grievous
and unnecessa7 disadvantages on many a deserving member
of the community as well as his family.—(Hear, hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that there were two
questions involved in this discussion which should be kept
entirely distinct; the first qaestion was, as to whether any
shares or interests in the funds of a friendly seciety should be
allowed to be transferred or not: and the second question
was, whether any such share or interest should be trans-
ferable by a member of these societies or his family.
Ia the belief, then, that the law still remained, and that it
would still remain as it was expressed in this clause, it was
desirable to retain the enactment, which was framed ex-
pressly with the view of preventing speculation among those
classes of society to whom it was most mischievous, and it
was one of the chief ditties of the Legislature to take mea-
sures for saving such an evil from ever taking place. It
was true that it they had only to do with lawyers, the
greater part of the interests of friendly societies would be well
taken care of under the provisions of the present law. But
in reference to the observation of an Hon. Friend opposite.
he must beg to observe that the amount of the property of
any contributor to a friendly society's funds could no more
be di-posed of than could any one in the receipt of such an
income, sell or mortgage his next quarter's salary. He
ianist positively assert that the transfer of any such
power was altogether illegal, nor was there any power,
or any words, which at all sustained the opinion that
such contributions had been made, or could be made,
transferable. But, in order to save the public from such an
IMPERIAL PA RL lAM ENT. impression, and to give a sufficient reason for actually hin-
dering the transfer of contributions to the funds of friendly
HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 22. societies, this clause was expressly introduced, and it
The BPSAKitit teak the Chair shortly after Twelve o'clock. was partly to remove the impression which seemed to be en-
The following motions were agreed to without any obser• tertained by his honourable and Learned Friend opposite,
rations:— that lie (the Solicitor-General) declared that was the case,
That it be an instruction to the Committee of Selection, and he would emphatically state that the interests of a con-
that the Liverpool Sanatory Regulations Bill; the Liver • tributor to a friendly society were not transferable. It was
pool Paving, Sewering, and Watering Bill ; the Liverpool the more necessary that this should be known, be-
Water Bill; the Liverpool and Harrington Waterworks Bill ; cause if they allowed one transfer to be made—if they once
and the Toxteth Park Improvement Bill, be referred to the threw around a transaction of this sort anything like the
same Committee. sanction of legal approval, if the) permitted only a single
That the Exeter, Topsham, and Exmouth Railway Bill, case to occur, there would be no limit to the practice of dis-
of which notice of report was given for Thursday, the 9th posing of those contributions, and the wife and children of
day of April, be reported to-morrow, Wednesday, the 22d day the contributors might in the time of sickness, or suffering
of April, notwithstanding the resolution of the House of the from accident, be deprived of that relief which was their only
7th day of April. reliance. It was consequently necessary to prevent the
That the Order made on the 6th day of February last, re- transfer of these contributions, either by selling, mortgaging,
ferring the petition for the Liverpool, Warrington, IlanVies- or pledging, or otherwise raising money on them for any
ter, and Stockport Direct Railway Bill, be now read. That future period. Though the sums to which this clause re-
Ihe said Order be discharged ; that the said petition be with- ferred might seem small to some persons, yet it was of immense
drawn. importance to the parties concerned, and these individuals
That the Order (6th February last) referring the Ayr might in a moment of thoughtlessness, or by gambling, give
shire and Caledonian Junction Railway Bill to the Corn- up all that, which a month afterwards, in the time of sick-
mittee on Petitions be now read. That the said Order be dis- ness, they would need ; and this the family of a man who
charged ; that the Bill be withdrawn. relied upon these contributions for their support, would be
Mr. GREENE moved, that, in consequence of the agents deprived of all advantage from them, If the House only
not having obtained the breviate in time to give an earlier considered the subject, they would see, that of' all the coin-
notice of the second reading, the Holme Reservoir Bill be munity it was this class of the people which was mostentitled
read a second time on Monday the 27th day of April, not- to protection from the Legislature. He was now desirous of
withstanding the time prescribed by the sessional order has removing the impressions of the Hon. Gentleman opposite
expired.—The motion was agreed to. (Mr. Dimeombe) respecting the words of the second part of
The How MEMZER then moved that, in consequence of the this clause. Whether the words could bear the meaning
agents for the Bill not having obtained the breviate in time or not—he (the Solicitor-General) believed that they
to give notice of the second reading, the Sheffield General did; it was desired to put a still more stringent restriction
Cemetery Bill be read a second time on Wednesday, the 22d upon the selling or pledging of contributions to friendly so-
day of April, notwithstanding the time prescribed by the cieties by this measure. But mistakes had arisen in the
sessional order has expired.—The motion was also agreed to. minds of some persons which it was necessary to remove. It
Mr. HAWES presented twenty petitions from the Wes- was, in the first place, supposed that if any person who had,
leyan Methodists and various Dissenting bodies in Cornwall contributed to the funds of a friendly society in London was
'and other counties, praying the House to take into consi- desirous of removing to some part of Scotland or Ireland,
deration the best means of preventing the sale of intoxicating that on doing so be ceased to become a member, and that he
liquors on the Sabbath. lost his title to his portion of the funds in the hands of the
Mr. DUNCOMBE gave notice of a motion that he in-
society, and was, consequently, deprived of all right to his for-
tended to move to-morrow for inquiring into the merits of mer contributions to the society's funds. This was a great mis-
the various railways before the House, with a view to provide take, for it was a misapprehension to suppose that he was to lose
for their better regulation. all this benefit. Although deprived of the right to sell his
RECEIVER-GENERAL OF CUSTOMS. contributions or to pledge them, yet he was entitled to re-
Mr. BARING asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer ceive back the whole worth of his property in the funds; and
whether it was the intention of the Government to make any it was desirous of rendering this power more explicit, although
alteration in the Receiver-General's department of the Cus- it was already in existence. There was no desire to prevent,
toms, now that the Receiver-General (Sir W. Boothby) was any of those advantages, but the object of the Secretary of State
dead ? He also wanted to know whether the Right Hon. for the Home Department was to hinder the appropriation of
Gentleman had any objection to lay on the table of the the funds of any society towards the support of individuals who
House a Copy of the report of the proceedings in the depart- had entered into any association or combination for the purpose
ment of the Receiver-General. of supporting two or more pe: sons who were conspiring or com-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that he bining to raise wages, or had entered into any arrangement
was not in a position to answer the first part of the Right to strike for wages. The object of the amendment, as pro-
Hon. Gentleman's question, as he had only so recently as posed by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Duncombe) was, in fact,
last night heard of the decease of the Receiver-General of the one to be regulated by the rules for governing the society,
Customs. With respect to the latter part of the question, he rather than for the law under which it was established, and
could see no objection to lay on the table the report which he believed that it was, in fact, comprised in the rules of
was inquired for. most friendly societies now in existence, and cams
In reply to question of Mr. WADDINGTON, more under the control of Mr. Tidd Pratt, wbo
Sir J. GRAHAM said it was not the intention of the Go- was the proper officer to supervise or introduce it.
vernment to make any alteration at present with respect to Au Hon. Member had stated that the law re-
the branch of the Poor-laws which provided for the casual lating to friendly societies as it then stood, was
reception of paupers. very uncertain in its operation. He was not prepared
FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. to state, that under the words in the existing '
The orders of the day were then read, and the further eon- Act of Parliament, namely, " for any
_other
_purpos_, not
sideration of the report of this Bill was proceeded with
in illegal," that the powers of the Act might not be applied to
Committee. purposes other than those connected with friendly
Clauses 1,2, and 3 were agreed to. societies ; such, for instance, as the Hon. Member
Mr. DUNCOMBE rose when clause 4 was read, and said had suggested. It was because there existed
much upon the present laws relating to
that the Bill at the present moment was much inisunder- so.
alterations
tl uncertaintyt
number of friendly friendly societies is he consideredsome were
stood. There was no doubt that a great .
in existence would be greatly circuzp essentially necessary.
societies now
scribed and crippled in their operations.ll
whose speech
were allowed to stand part of the Bill. e proposed was perfectly inaudible in the gallery
that these societies should, under the new Act, have the there ought to be a separate claus '• •
said that
e, providing that
of transferring theirahares. A deputation had waited members:of any friendly soc. ' •
power
wales constituted under the pro-
upon him that morning, from a friendly society, stating posed law, should have the power of receiving the sums they
a case in which they would be interfered with. A few days hadpaid, •
ago some members of a friendly society wished to emigrate. tie .
if they left: England for Scotland or Ireland, or
They had been subscribers to their society for a length of ve • v
time, and of course their subscriptions were worth something Sir AM —S GRAHAM was of opinion that as little inter-
to them. After the passing of the 4th clause of this Bill ference as possible should be made with the free circulation
they would be unable to withdraw their money, or to trans- of labour, and if there was any doubt in the Bill as
for their shares to aay other persons, whether hey were or it
l at present stood, to satisfy the Hon. and Learned
Member he would propose, in bringing up the report, to
were not connected with the society, and oft coarse their add words to meet the' difficulty. He would also have a
money would be left behind them in this country. He did special proviso, that the funds of the societies should not be
not see why their shares should not be transferable to their
families, or even to strangers, and he should therefore pro- ifno ry etteedßienduanc tTosnaovifntt ilrantikasn,ar
Deevbitt.h the Commissioners
pose such alterations in the clause as would admit of the The clause was then agreed to,
transfer of these shares.
On clause 5 being read,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the observation made by the Mr.' •
T. DUN teOMB h objected to the power proposed to be
Hon. Member, when he said it was the tendency of the Bill given to the Secretary of State over the granting of certifi-
to narrow and restrict the existing powers of friendly socie- cates, The arrangement proposed would materially inter-
ties, was incorrect. The object of the Bill was not to inter- fere with the carrying out of the intentions of the Act. He
fere with any existing societies which should have been re- hoped the Right Hon, Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) would
gistered before the passing of this Act—but foreseeing how consent to the leaving out the proviso
relating to the Seen-
much legislation and inconvenience was likely to arise in tary of State,
future if the law continued in its present state, this Bill was air J. GRAHAM thought the clause necessary as it stood.
introduced for the purpose of extending and enlarging these In cases wherein the certifying barrister did not see proper
associations—and it would secure what was lawful and just. to grant a certificate, the parties had the power of pets
The sth clause enabled any society to apply for registration, tioning the Secretary of State. On receiving the peti-
and to certify that its object was a legal one—and this lion, the latter would communicate it to the law adviser
Bill, so far from narrowing the space of the operations of the Crown, and if in his opinion the object of the society was
of these societies, would greatly extend it. With reference to legal, then the Secretary of State, if he considered the so-
the particular point made by the Hon. Gentleman with re- cietv for the public good, he would order the certificate to
gard to the transfer of the shares of these societies, he (Sir be granted. No doubt some inconvenience would arise from
J. Graham) thought that the Hon. Member was not correct this arrangement, still he thought it would operate for the
in stating that if the law at the present moment permitted public benefit; and, therefore, be supported the clause as it
the transfer of shares, this Bill would interfere with that stood.
power. The clause they were discussing did not operate so The clause was agreed to.
as to interfere with those societies registered before the pass- On clause 6 being proposed,
ing of the Act ; for all shares in such societies, if they were Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he considered the provision it
transferable, would remain so. With regard to the policy of contained, restricting the interest of members in those so-
making shares transferable, he objected extremely to the cieties to within 200)., would destroy much of the benefits,
principle ; for he conceived that these associations and also operate injuriously on many societies in operation
were associations of mutual contract and assurance under the existing law,
The law assumed, and rightly assumed, that the members of Sir J. GRAHAM said the provision was not retrospective.
these societies were parties known to each other, and who Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—So far that was good ; still he thought
trusted each . other ; and, as the case was put by the Hon. ewe too small a sum as a maximum
provision for Member, members members of these societies would have the power of once in death. He considered that the limit of 200/.
transferring shares to persons not known to the society—nte would not be suitable to reach the objects of the Bill. The
parties not trusted by them, and not acceptable to reernini,eama. law as it now stood was, that when these societies exceeded
who might not be agreeable associates for
theother
'members two hundred pounds, they then became lisble to stamp-dutee
hers. He conceived that it was not right that new. and the additional interest of th
checking or Con-three pounds eighteen shillings
was
should be admitted without any power of
t, _
f the society not granted • and, therefore, in point of fact, they collid
trolling their admission on epart
make ttie-se shares, not , never have friendly societies beyond the limit of two hundred
in general. He wished to did not pounds.—(Hear, bear,)
wish to
a matter of barter—he did Create Sir.
0 GRAHAM considered that the Hon. Member did not
e
as well as stags •f another
friendly society stags
which the Act applied. The
the law with respect these clearly apprehend the cases to
nature, and whatever might be
introduce to 2OO/. didnotapply to the cases of illness or death. He
. . he was not prepared to the principle of
societies,wished to remind the Hon. Member that it was_paragrapn
unlimited and unchecked transfer to strangers, for the law under the discussion of the I-louse.
societies on the assumption that they five which was then
hased these friendly wereATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Bill provided that
formed for the purpose of and mutual assurance. 1:1 The .
formed
hereafter should be keptent• el
t,herefore prorsed to strike out tb, iriAs atter Abe wmo
a new societiesli neparate
_ - - , , _ 7. . _
-- - ..- from those now existing.

(YESTERDAY.)

Sub-Committee, No. 2.
This Committee met shortly after twelve, in Room 6;
present Sir John Yarde Buller (Chairman), Mr. Acland, and
Mr. Walker.

THAMES HAVEN, DOCIL, AND RAILWAY.

This Bill stood over in consequence of the absence of a
witness, npon Whom a SIIIIIMOI3 to appear before the Com-
mittee will be served.

VIARVTICKSHIRE AND LONDON, No. 2
(V7ORCESTI3R AND WEEDON).

This adjourned case was called on, and evidence given in
support of the petition against the Bill.

WA/LWICKSTAXICE AND LONDON (WOR-
CE✓cTEIL AND:WMEDOLT niza. rs CH).
in this Bill the standing orders were not complied with.
lIIDEPORD AND TAVISTOCIL.

This Bill was called on, but ns it was found that it would
be imposible to complete tile erve to-dad• it stood over until
twelve to-morrow.

THAMES HAVEN, DOCZ, AND ZAILWAY.
The absent witness not being in attendance at the rising of
the Committee, the 'case stood adjourned, and the Com-
mittee rose at about half-past two o'clock.

Sub- Committee No, 3.

This Committee did 1;4 meet till a quarter-past one
o'clock, there not being a sufficient number of Members pre-
sent to form a quorum. At that hour, however, there were
present Mr. Aglionby (chairman), Mr. E. Buller, and
another Hon. Member, and the case of the

NORTH DEVON
was proceeded with. It occupied the Committee the whole
of the day, and had not been disposed of at a quarter past
four o'clock, when the Committee rose, and adjourned until
Friday next, having declared the standing orders not com-
plied with on several points.

Sub-Committee, No. 4.

. -
This Committee met at twelve o'clock ; present, Sir W
leathcote (chairman), and Mr. H. Johnstone.

NORTH GRAVESEND.
This was the first case taken, and the formal proofs com-
menced on a former occasion were completed.
EAST AND WEST OF ENGLAND =NOTION.
This adjourned case was then proceeded with, and evi-
dence given in support of the allegations of a petition against
the Bill.

The Committee decided in favour of the petitioners against
this Bill en several of the points raised, and in favour of Os
promoters of the Bill upon others, and were occupied with
the case up to half-past four o'clock, at which hour they
adjourned.

Sub• Committee, No. 6.
This Committee met at the usual hour ; Captain Jones in
the chair. Present also, Mr. Pakington and Mr. George
Phillips. They first took the case of the