The Sun.
London, England, 1846-06-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FAIDA EVENING, JUNE 26, 1846.

tot an. Members opposed to a Coercion Bill should not give their
votes in favour of it in consequence of the measures recently
passed through that House, and that those who were in
favour of it should not give their votes against it for the
opposite reason. Nothing could be more reasons hie
than the first part of the Right Ilonourable Baronet's
proposition. He had yet to learn that any man would get up
and say he would vote for a Coercion Bill because of a Com-
merce Bill which had passed that House, and totally irrespec-
tive of the merits of the Bill, the conduct of the Minister who
had introduced it, and the claims he had on the confidence of
the country. The Bill must be pre-erninartly considered a
question of confidence, sad when they found that it
invested the Government with a discretionary power,
surely it could be considered in no other light.
He would take the following as en illustration-, If the Govern-
ment, instead of corning down to that House with free-trade
measures, and proposing that all restriction on the imeortation
of food should c ase and be abolished, had come down to that
House, and sought for a discretionary power to open the ports—
he merely gave that as an illustration—it would be very evident
to every Hon. Gentleman in that House, that, in so doing they
would have asked for a larger power, and greater confidence
than they had done with their present course; and he could
choose no eistinction between a question of confi-
dence on the restriction of food over the liberties of a
whole people. If thel were not prepared to intrust the Govern-
ment with such ',arise powers in oee case, neither were they
prepared, unless they had the most perfect confidence in the
Government, to invest them with a discretionary power to sus-
pend the constitutional liberties of seven millions of their
fellow-subjects ; and, therefore, he thought that the Right Hon.
Barone., in attempting to separate the present question from a
questioei of confidence in the Government, indulged in a view of
the question which the House would hardly suppart.
He bed no vote to rescind on the present occasion, and although
he sled not wish to vote against it, still he could not bring his
mi'ad to vote in favour of the measure. Ile- had heard
e.o much of the evils of a nominal protection that
it had in some degree become the habit of his mind.
He had applied this principle to the present Bill. There were
two points which had not been spoken to in the present debate,
which were first. whether this Bill would really pass ; and second,
if it did pass whether it would be of any service at all. They
had been called upon to pass the present Bill, on the
round that if they threw It out it would give an
impetus to agitation. T.-ie was not satisfied that
all the means had yet been tried in order to put down a e
outrages which existed, and 'protect life in Ireland. The 2d
and 3d William IV. was treed in the county of Leitrim with
success. In the other coreaties it had not been tried at all.
He could not consent to terse present abrogation of the constitu-
tion, when in one comely at least the present law had been
sue.cessful.—(Hear, hoar.) It was a bad policy to resort to
extraordinary measures, when the ordinary ones had not
been tried. Unti's they had tried the present law, it
was most unfair to suspend the constitutional liberties
of a whole nation, The Right Hon. Baronet said the measure
was only a tot:deal remedy, and not to be applied to all Ireland.
If it were he laid stress on that character of the rues-
sure, they muse look to those long resident in the five coun-
ties whether "such a remedy would be effectual. He thought
that all t'etese who were connectedwith those counties from
long ties, tend had intimate knowledge, would be found going
against the measure. Every one must admit that it would
produe'4 great alienation of feeling, and they ought to pause
and e irasider whether the good to be obtained would counter-
balr Ace the evil. He, at least, would say .that as a native of
Jre *lend, a resident in that country, and a magistrate, that he
...Quid not consent to the measure.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Be considered it would be impossible to carry out the curfew
clauses of the Bill. The provision was totally impracticable.
The Bill was totally inapplicable to the country, and that clause
particularly which enacted that the people should be confined
in their houses from sunset to sunrise. He himself could not
enforce it in his own county. He would feel it, therefore, to
be his duty to oppose the second reading of the Bill.
There was a reason, however, for the increase of crime
in Ireland which those around him would readily
understand.—(Hear, hear.) He traced it to the failure in
the potato crop. The people found famine staring them in
the face, and the consequence was the outrages that swelled
the returns, but they ought not, in fairness, to be set down to the
crdinary condition of thepeople. He had no hesitation in bearing
his testimony to the conduct of the first Minister, and in
stating that the measures taken by the Right Hon. Baronet
to meet that state of things were more effective in warding
off the distress and the evils than any Coercion Bill.—( Hear.)
However imperative it might be in them to show the necessity
of sometimes sacrificing their old opinions, still, after the
miserable exhibition which had been seen that session, he did
not regret having said at its commencement that he
owed unfettered allegiance to party. The usages and laws
of that House had been constructed with reference to two great
parties, and because there had been mere than two he believed
that those laws were inefficacious, and would remain so. He
might say that if herealiter he should have to vote for coercive
baeasures, and he did not mean to say that it might never
Come, he should not regret having been able to advocate
a milder policy ; and if he should hereafter have to
labour with those whom he was now to assist in throwing out
of office, in any opacity under them he should not labour the
less cheerfully for being compelled to express his want of con-
fidence in therm at present, and to record his vote against
them now.

Mr. VESEY feared that he should appear to some disad-
vantage at this part of the debate, but he could not remain
any e longer silent. Neither could he refrain from expressing
bis concurrence in the testimony of praise to the Right Hon.
Secretary' for the Home Department ; but further than
t" he. could not go, for, as an Irish proprietor, he could
34.„„11,0 way accede to the necessity of this Bill.—(Hear, hear. )
sie should go on two grounds, one was the necessity, and
the other was the policy of this Bill. If ho admitted the
police reports he was bound to say that there was great
reason shown for the severe measures which were projected
against Ireland. But in stating thus much he must call the
attention of the House to the fact that. instead of the five
Counties those reports had reference to the whale of the country,
and in the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet it was evident
that he had merged the five counties in the whole of the
country, so that there was no sufficient reason for the applica-
tion of the Bill to the whole of the country. He could state a
fact which occurred five years ago, and tl;is was in particular
reference to the most objectionable part of the Bill, but one which
ought to have been included, viz., the security for the witnesses.
This was a case which occur red when he was empannelled on
the Grand Jury, when a 'man was.' brought forward whose
bouse had been attacked by partyutinrch for arms; and
ot only had he stated when a3rc:before the Grand Jury,
that if he gave evidence his life would be indang bu
his brother was brought before the jury he fell uponer hist kneeshen
and entreated that he might not be compelled to give evidence.
It had again been urged that other remedies might be
applied for this state of things. He was glad to see
the remedies 'which had been introduced by the Noble
Lord the Secretary fir Ireland. It bad been urged that
special commissions, increase of the constabulary, and other
means
or. that sort, might be beneficial in checking
present state. Special Commissions had been tried in
vain l'a Queen's County, for at the very time a Special Com-
Thiseion was sitting in that county some of the foulest murders
W.-ere committed. Lord Grey had introduced his famous
Wt
nereion measure in consequence of the report of a Committee
of that House appointed to inquire into the disturbed state of
Ireland. A great cause of the prevalence of crime in Ireland
was the sympathy of the people with those who committed
offences. If it was not sympathy in all cases, it was at least a
vv ent of readiness to assist in the detection of cffending parties.
t et them destroy that feeling of sympathy if they hoped to
improveii the condition of the country. The provisions of the
Bill would operate to some entent in altering this state of
things. He did not agree with the Hon. Member for
Northamptonshire, that if the curfew clause was passed no
Than would be safe. If +.7nat Hon. Member would read it
aright, he would find t,'eat no person would be affected unless
theysao were actually oo.'s at night, and could not give a satis-
etry account of the business on which they were engaged.
tie now turned t'e the Committee which reported on the' state
td. Ireland in l geo which was composed principally of liberal
Members. `That Committee reported that protection should
be givens to life and property, and that measures should be
taken etc put down Whiteboyism and nocturnal outrages. The
nor.. Member here quoted several extracts from the evidence
te:a.en before that Committee, all of which went to
show the great disturbance which then prevailed, and
the necessity which existed for its suppression.
Though this might fail in effectually stopping the disturbances,
it would yet have a great effect in preventing those combinations
for criminal purposee which were now so rife. The Hon.
Gentleman then quoted an extract from the speech of Sir
William Smith, whose opinions were strongly in favour of the
Bill. He would beg to call to recollection a speech of his
Right Hon. Friend, in which he had thanked the Government,
and in that speech he pleaded that fathers and mothers of fami-
lies might go to bed in peace, with the assurance that them-
selves and their families would not be awakenedby the midnight
,Thurderer ; and he called upon his Hon. Friend to give a cordial,
nonourahle, and impartial support to the Government, notwith-
standing the difference which existed between him and them.
Mr. HUME &II not expect to hare to address the House,
for he fully expected that the Bill would have been witisdravvn.
Yet he nevertheless could not help congratulating the House
on the change of opinion which had taken place with respect to
coercion Bills. He did remember the time when, in a House
of 560 Members, all the opposition that they could muster,
English, Scotch, and Irish, was only comprised in the numberr
hadof 89 Members, The case was now greatly
changed,
hoped that it would have been more changed, for when he
referred to the speeches of the Right Honourable
Baronet (Sir James Graham) at the end of last session, he
found that conciliation marked every sentence of those speeches.
The Right Hon. Baronet had spoken of times one by.
th 1-le
(Mr. Hume) remembered greater outrages ign Ireland an
any which the Right Hon. Baronet bad adduced. He would
call the attention of the House to the state of Ireland in 1823,
and recall his expression of opinion, which was decidedly
against the present measure. What had been stated in that
House by Sir Henry Parnell? Sir H. Parnell had said that
if by a long course of ill treatment we had made that country
a nation of slaves, all their coercive measures would not remove
the effects of that bad treatment. That country had all along
been governed by a system of Protestant oppression, and in
order to show that he could refer to the penal enactments
against the Catholics, which precluded them from filling the
Meanest offices in the kingdom. They war© precluded :rem
any offices connected with the law, and were even precluded
from filling the situations of officers in the army and navy; and
though these enactments had been repealed, still their effect
remained to a considerable extent, and were a very gr
source of annoyance to the Irish Catholics. What with Co-
ercion Bills, the Arms Act, and other coercive enactments,
with the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act,
land had had hardly ever been allowed to remain in a
situation in which the more proper and cultivated feelings of
the people could be developed. The present system of govern-
ment was rendered, by a party feeling, an uniform system of
oppression upon the Catholics. If he looked through the
whole of Lord Grey's appointments, he would find thee greater
part of them were what be called Orange appointments.
Under these circumstances, was it surprising
that Irishmen
should be dead to the feelings of patriotism, and indifferent to
the laws which were nominally for their benefit? And that
feeling would never be removed until her Maj-sty's moven.
,
'Tient chose to carry out those professions which they had given
last session, and adopt those measures of conciliation which
only were calculated to restore peace and tranquillity to Ire-
land.painful The effect of the pinraesitsin.t siy4lsrtem,„asdiiilt
notmt only
affect
. Ireland, it was felt in Eng
contemplate the mass of misery, destitution, and crime which
existed in Ireland, and for the relief of which England was
compelled to use resources which ought, to be applied to diffe-
rent objects ? lie repeated. that the evil would never be
was
got
rid of until the present system of religious persecutiou
abolished, and the Cathol c was made, in every respect of civil
right, equal to any other member if the community, who might
be of a persuasion more favourable in the eyes of the country.
If the Hen. Gentleman the Member for Northampton. and the
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, acted with regard to Ire-
land upon the same principles of justice which they wished for
England, they might be sure of commanding the affections
of
of
the Irish people. The true way of conciliating the people
Ireland was to place them en the came footing as the Scotch
and English people. What was wanted was, really to carry out
the union between the two coon ries. He had always been op-
posed to a repeal of the Union, but his desire was that it should
be a hours fide, and not a parchment union. The difference
between a free man and a slave was the participation of equal
rights and privileges by the former, and the Irish people would
never be free till the laws under which they lived were the
sante as those enjoyed by the residents of this country. There
was nothing in the institutions of Ireland that the people need
care to preserve. They were entirely at the mercy of a few,
whose benefit .the lota had been framed,. end not (Or tin

• advantage of the great body of the people.—( Hear, hear.)
Tha people of Ireland abroad were as well disposed
and as industrious as the English or Scotch ; why,
then, were they in their own country the
wild beasts they had been represented to be
shooting and murdering each other ? It was the had state of
the law, and the way in which the Legislature had acted to-
wards them. He had a return in his hand, from which it ap-
peared that the four counties in which the greatest number of
mud hovels prevailed, was Kerry, Mayo, Clare, and Co-k,
while in all the other counties a large proportion of the
dwellings were of the same character. The Hon. Gentleman
here read several extracts from the return in question, show-
ing that in those counties where the greatest number of mud
cabins prevailed, and where the people were most crowded to-
gether, the minuet of crime and outrage was the greatest.
These returns would (the Hon. Member continued) suffi-
ciently show that poverty was at the root of a great deal of
the evil, omplained of. But poverty was not the only cause
—there was also the question of tenant-right. Lord Devon's
Commission showed that the eviction of tenants was a fruitful
source of much of the outrage and crime that abounded.
Poverty and bad laws were at the bottom of Irish grievances,
and, milers they grappled with these, no coercion law would
be found availing to counteract crime and to protect property.
Let them give the Irish people confidence in the law, and they
would soon be found as good subjects as were the people of
either England or Scotland. On these grounds be should vote
against the second reading of the Bill.
Viscount NEWPORT would vote against the Bill. not from
a desire of continuing opposition to her Majesty's Government,
but because he thought it a most dangerous and irritating mea-
sure. lie found all the Irish Members on the opposite side of
the House against the Bill, and that they were divided in
opinions on this side of the House. This was some evidence
that the Bill was one which should not be agreed to by the
House. if this meas. re were of so vital importance, as it was
professed to be, it should have been brought forward and pro-
ceeded with before any other measure. if they really thought
that the lives of the people of Ireland stood in need of protec-
tion they would not have treated the measure as one of an or-
dinary nature. The Bill was a most unconstitutional one, he
would, therefore, oppose it.
Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON was surprised to see the
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn prompt the last Noble
Speaker.—(No, no. ) If the Noble Lord denied it, he would
then withdraw his observations, It was quite impossible for
him as an Irish Member to give his vote iu favour of the Bill.
He felt, however, that it was his painful duty to do so. He
had listened to all the arguments which had been brought for-
ward on the present occasion, but he had heard nothing that had
the effect of altering his opinions upon the subject of the necessity
for these stringent measures. On a former occasion, there was
no disposition in the House similar to that which influenced it
on the present occasion, and induced it to slur over, as it had
done, the accounts of the disturbed state of Ireland. He
thought the circumstance was only attributable to the great
height to which party feeling was allowed to operate upon the
minds of Hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House. It was
more than three years since great complaints were made to the
Government for keeping a great number of troops in Ireland ;
the constitutional susceptibility of some Hon. Members ap-
peared to have changed considerably since that period, for they
had asked the Government why, instead of pressing their mea-
sure, they did not increase their military force in that country.
He (Lord Hamilton) contended that the proposed measure
would be less oppressive than the keeping up of large bodies of
troops, who would be paraded about the country. He denied
the statement which had been made by the Hon. Member for
Montrose (Mr. Hume), that the policy of the Government
had been a one-sided policy, favourable to Protestants. lie
defied the Hon. Member to put his finger upon a single Act
which, during the last five -years, had been passed by the
Government having that tendency. He could refer to a num-
ber of Bills, the 3laynotith Bill, the Bequests Acts and
others which were of the very reverse nature. It was a
very ordinary argument that all the evils of Ireland owed
their origin to the legislation of that House. If that argu-
ment were good, he would ask why did not all Ireland present,
the same symptoms, inasmuch as every part of it was governed
by the same laws ? Every one, however, knew that such was
not the case. A great stress was also laid upon the -tenant
right in Ulster, without which, it was said by the Hon.
Members for Armagh and Cork that that province would be
exactly in the same situation as the other parts of Ireland
where outrages existed. Ile denied this, and contended that
the arrangement of what was called the tenant right was not
a compact bei %Well the landlord and tenant. The only ground
on which it rested was the expectation on the part of the in-
coming tenant that in case he should leave,the land he would
be repaid the amount which he had paid to his predecessor.
This, however, could not exist in Tipperary, inasmuch as there
was no money paid by the tenant going into possession of his
holding, nor did he think that the moral state of feeling which
prevailed there would tolerate the existence of such a usage.
Every attempt had been made to improve the moral and social
condition of the people, but it was all to no purpose. Legis-
lation had been tried in vain, and he thought that nothing re-
mained but coercion. The Noble Lord concluded by defending
the landlords of Ireland, whom he considered a very ill .used set
of men ; who if they were permitted to carry out their benevo-
lent intentions towards the people of Ireland, would, in a short
time, cause a far different state of things to exist in that un-
happy country.
Mr. C. BULLER thought this was a subject on which they
ought to have been spared the declamation of the Noble Lord
who had just sat down, and it seemed to him that if they con-
tented themselves, like the Noble Lord, with merely looking to
the moral depravity of the people, without endeavouring to
apply a remedy to the grievances under which they laboured,
their condition would never be much improved. A few nights
ago he made a few observations in reply to the Hon. Member
for Bath, and he then took an opportunity of saying that he.
had, in the year 1833, when he was then but a young Member
of that House, opposed the Coercion Bill of Lord Grey. On
one part of the question he went entirely with his Hon. and
Learned Friend in deprecating the personality which Lad cha-
racterised the present debate. He thought it odious that these
personalties should have been made. And more odious that
such a determination should have prevailed to affix them to any
private individual.—(Hear, hear.) He was of opinion, taking
everything into account, that the circumstances which had oc-
curred had arrested the Were ion of the House to the condition
of Ireland, and would be productive of a better state of feel-
ing and a new state of legislation towards that country. He
would now state his objection to the Bill. He thought that, as
a measure of coercion, it was exceedingly paltry, and very
ill adapted for the state of things which prevailed in Ireland.
If the country was in a state of insurrection, he could see the
policy of confining men in their houses from sunset to sunrise,
but it was admitted on all sides that the country,was not in
such a condition. One thing was most remarkable, namely,
that during the last fifteen years the generality of crimes of a
tumultuous nature had decreased, except in the case of rob-
beries of arms, far which they might thank their own Arms
Bill, which appeared to him to be a most efficient means
of giving to the lawless the knowledge of houses where arms
were placed. But crimes of assaults en individuals had greatly
increased in proportion as the former class of crimes had di-
minished. How were they by an Act to shut up the people
from sunset to sunrise to prevent noonday murders? It was
an old and a stale question ; but still it had never been an-
swered.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that the clauses of the
Act were by no means calculated to repress those outrages.
Under the Government of Lord Normanby—at least at its com-
mencement—crime was infinitely greater than it was at pre-
sent. Lord Normanby commenced by endeavouring to obtain
the confidence of the people, and he obtained the confidence of
their aeknowleged leaders ; and what was the result ? Crime
had, at the commencement of Lord Fortescue's Government,
gradually and steadily decreased, until it was not one-half of
what it was when Lord Norrnanby commenced. Lord Nor-
manby, however, did not attribute that diminution to the effect
of his policy. He attributed it to the effect of a Coercion
Bill which was in preparation, and which, he ad-
mitted never came into operation, and lie, therefore, afterwards
was in favour of coercive measures. If it had, however, been
the terror of the Coercion Bill which operated on the people,
the terror would be greater immediately after the passing of
the Bill and before it came into operation. Crime would have
diminiabed at first, but when the people became freed from
those terrors, crime would break out again. That was, how-
ever, shown not to be the case ; for immediately after the pass-
ing of the Act crime at once increased to a frightful extent,
and continued increasing with great rapidity for some time
after. It did not seem to him that, even when they had ad-
vanced so far into the nature of the remedies which should be
applied to Ireland, that they had got to the bottom of the
problem. They had yet to devise some means of giving a per-
manent remedy to that country. They had had repeated in-
quiries in that House, and repeated reports of Commissions,
and they all agreed that crime and outrage in Ireland arose
from agrarian causes, and to the utter dependance of the Irish
peasant on the cultivationof land, and his adherence to that cul-
tivated land which he had tilled in the midst of the wilderness
around him, and the destitution which necessarily resulted from
his ejection from it. He would quote from an authority wh.cli be
feared might be disagreeable to many around him, but which
certainly was a good one on this subject. He alluded to Mr.
Foster, the Times commissioner, and he found, in one of his
first letters, that in the county of Cavan, disturbances arose
from two particular cases of ejection, of which he gave the
circumstances. He also traced these risings to the same cause
in other places; and, on the contrary, gave instances of the
perfect security with which those who acted the
part of good landlords night traverse the country.
All the best authorities in Ireland, all the best informed
travellers, and indeed every one who knew anything of Ireland,
agreed that the outrages of the poor arose from the outrages
on the poor. He admitted that the sympathy of the people
with these who committed agrarian outrages was a most hor-
ribly perverted feeling, but it was their duty to attempt to
remedy it, and not to spend their time in declamation, but to
go at once to the root of the evil, and to remove it. lie could
not see how they could ever put an end to these outrages with-
out providing for the people the security which the people of every
other Christian country in the world enjoyed. Let them look at
the condition of the peasantry In every other country in the
world, and they would find that there was no other country in
the world in which the peasantry could be ejected at the caprice
of the rich man. In foreign countries the peasants security
was partly in the proprietorship of the soil. Even the serf of
Russia could not be left to starve by his master, and in England
the existence of the peasant was secured by the poor-law. Yet
in this kingdom Mr. Gerrard had turned out 800 men
because he thought he should make a few hundreds
more by the substitution of bullocks instead of men.
But the case was different with respect to Ireland. Since the
time when the old Norman Barons used to starve their serfs
when it served their purpose, there was no country in which
the peasantry had been worse treated than in Ireland.—( Hear,
hear.) They could not get rid of the population of Ireland, or
cut up the estates of the landed proprietors among them, and
the only alternative left them was to cart y out the principle of
the English poor-law.—( Hear, hear.) No other remedy would
meet the evil. He knew there would be great difficulty in ex-
tending the English poor-law to Ireland, as the danger would
be the confiscation of all property to support the people ; they
should, therefore, in passinfgrseumch alelaitnvg, ttahkee_pcarelteo. acirTernkptawnwy
it with efficient measures ;shall p
by employing
theeopeo le to culti-
vatethig suchga plan') as the Devon
sn,g.onso.
Commission-
no better way
The r isodnelsehould b'is to cultivate the improv-
the wasteolla'tliodi
ibteccancndeonteo wai ts er
ens
oerdtt
idf Lpta ei•ei
1.
able land ita
hear.)the ryas
Elv'
eiltuulceitifid
adverse to granting a sum of mousy
Grants of money
ment were applied to, It ould ninottiihse,vrahyewhwie•alsi it had
been done with the West India planters.
might be made to enable the landed proprTe. torsTthey s
oiinipiroousil
their edatee, and then to employ the peol
also do all they could to encourage the flow
into Ireland. But, with all retnedial measures of this kind,
But there there must be an efficient poor-law.of English caeital
must be some-
thinglan d. different from
legislation
nmpartoeiririt hd
tior,i;a3r,esm employed to pacify Ire.
been most unsatisfactory. '1
Irelandhd hitherto
which the people did
notbelieve, and been subjected to irrespon-
siblepression. These muste
authorities, which had been the
remedied,Ti e
fotrtatdheassuffweprlelldasf-mnasaucrhe.iftthkeinn
continual cause of op-
eeo.eftyllee
Government
for finding food and employment
sitting down advert to the policy of herP
in any
towards Ireland. No one could accuse hitni
very uncompromising mariner the Governmen°tP;P"sia"
re-
gretted to say that their measures in relation to Irelandmhateine
ever good in themselves, had lost half their value in the owe.
in which they had been introduced.

Messenizers from the Lords now entered the House with
the Corn Bill, to which their Lordships had agreed. Their
advent was hailed by general cheering.
Mr. C. BULLER, on noticing their entrance, expressed
the gratification which be experienced from such and so
welcome an interruption.—(Loud cheers. )—He thought, too,
that it would now be ungracious if, after this occurrence, he
raid s word ram agairat lan Nriieltie Illiailtter§r(Ggot

cheering)—so far as their Irish measures were concerned.
He could only deeply regret that the Bill now under discus-
sion should have been an exception to the policy by which,
during the present session, they had so touch and so wisely
consulted the goodwill of the country.--(Cheers. )—He
further deeply regretted that it should have been his for-
tune, and that of Honourable Gentlemen on that side of
the House, to be compelled to give, on this occasion, a vote
which might be fatal to the existence of the Government—
( Hear, hear. )—He said this sincerely, from the bottom of
his heart, and he regreted that such should be the effect
of his vote. Without affecting any adherence to those gentle-
men, he might say he felt acutely the ungraciousness of ap-
pearing 10 select the moment when they bad conferred so
signal a service upon the nation, at the same time at a stcrifice
on their own part—(Loud cheers)—to join in a vote of which
such might he the effect, concurrently with those gentlemen
who desired to punish the Government for the good they had
done to the country. —(Cheers.) But-he could not help it.
It was no fault of theirs (the Oipposition) that this Coercion
Bill was introduced.—(Cheers.) Were the matter other than
what it was, he would be willing to abstain from opposition to
the Government ; but any measure marking their policy to-
wards Ireland was of far too serious a nature, and too
important in its consequences, to be made the occasion of a
compliment to the Ministers. Cheers.) He knew that the
Right Hon. Baronet had looked all this fairly in the face,
and that• when he came forward with a great measure which
would hand him down to posterity—(Cheers)—and which
at present endeared him to the hearts of the people of this
country—(Cheers)—he had properly estimated the personal
sacrifice at which his object was to be accomplished—("Hear"
from Sir R. Peel)—the penalty which was to be paid i❑ the
loss of power.—(" Hear, hear," from Sir R. Peel. ) He
(Mr. C. Bullet) had in 1833, when a measure very similar
to this was introduced, and when his assent was asked to it.
by a Minister who had established the most solemn claim to
the gratitude of the English people---lie alluded to Earl Grey,
who, immediately after the passing of the Reform Bill, sub-
mi such a measure to the Reformed Parliament—he had
voted against it and against Earl Grey. He now would vote
against this measure and against the Right Hon. Baronet.—
(Cheers. ) It somewhat diminished the pain with which he
should give this vote to think that, by rejecting this Bill, they
would mark an important and a new era in their legislation
for Ireland. It would be the first instance of the demands of a
Government for coercive power in Ireland being rejected by
that Mouse.—(Cheers.) Let. him trust that such a rejection
would effectually prevent a like demand being ever again
made from the Imperial Parliament.—( Loud cheers.)

CORN AND CUSTOMS BILLS-MESSAGE FROM

THE LORDS,

Messengers from the House of Lords brought up these two
Bills, along with several others, which they declared their
Lordships had passed without amendment.

The SPEAKER then read from the chair that the Corn
and, Customs Bill 3 hal been passed by the House of Lords,
without aineatiment.—(The announcement was received with
tremendous cheering. )
Mr. BANKES said the Parliament had been assembled for
five er six months, yet this matter, which had been mentioned
in her Majesty's speech its of pressing importance, bad been
delayed till the present time—(Hear, hear)—such had
been the progress of the Bill. With respect to those who
voted for the first reading, he must say that that was no ex
press sanction of the Bill, as the usual course was, with a Bill
in that stage of its proceeding, and coming from the House of
Lords, to allow it as a matter of course. This, therefore was
the first decided vote on the principle of the Bill in that House,
though five months after its intreduction.—( Cries of
" Hear, hear.") He believed the Ministry had no
intention of carrying the Bill, even though they carried the
second reading. it was well known that even now the Go-
vernment was perishing by self-combustion, and that three
days would witness their dissolution.—( Hear, hear; and pro.
tection cheers.) The Government well knew, even if they
could carry the secon dreading of the Bill, that they would live
but two or three days, and therefore they can have no intention
whatever of carrying the measure. Such was the position of
the Bill and of the Government. He could not conceive how
a Government was justified in putting the country in a state of
excitement, and detaining the time of Parliament, seeing
they had no power whatever of carrying it into effect. At the
beginning of the session, when he was told by the Government,
as the Execu ive Government, that the measure was neces-
sary for the safety of Ireland, he decided to support them, and
had they shown a disposition to push the Bill forward, it would
have still had his cordial support. They had not, however,
proved themselves sincere, and he could no longer support
them. In a conversation with an eminent lawyer in Ireland
(Mr. Brewster) which he had at the beginning
of the year, he then expressed himself, that though
he had much to complain of the Executive Govern-
ment, he would, if they were sincere, support the Coercion
Bill. At a subsequent meeting of those who acted with the
Noble Lord (Lord George Bentinck) it was also agreed on
that, if the Government really showed a disposition to push
the Bill forward and thought it necessary, they would support
it. That decision was intimated to the House at the time.
But they thought in consequence of the delay in bringing
the measure forward, that it was intended only as a political
tool between two contending parties. ; and very naturally
doubted the sincerity of the Government in speaking of the im-
minent necessity, or, as the Right Hon. Baronet had called it,
"dire necessity." It had been said the present measure
was to be tried by evidence. He quite agreed in that opinion,
and he would call his first witnesses from the Treasury bench,
whose evidence against the Bill was their delay in bringing it
forward. The second witnesses which he would call were the
Irish Members, and their evidence was entirely against the
measure. With such witnesses and with such evidence he
and the party with whom he acted could not but consider it
their duty to oppose the Bill. He thought the Government
were mistaken in their opinions of the state and remedies for
Ireland. Was it for him, and the parties with whom he acted,
to confer these unconstitutional powers on a Ministry just on
the eve of dissolution, and in whom they had no confidence?--
(Cheers.) It had been said, why did we not at first propose
a vote of censure, and then dispose of the Bill before the
House ? And, in his opinion the Hen. Member for Birming-
ham (Mr. Sooner) coincided. He would ask that Hon.
Member whether he would think it adviphle for him (Mr.
Bankes) to propose in that House, upon the present occasion,
a vote of censure on the Government, or join in an address to
her Majesty, praying her to remove her present advisers, and
immediately afterwards place in the hands of those same persons
these unconstitutional powers—powers which should not be
placed in the hands of any person, except in those in
whom they had unlimited confidence ? Or, would the Hon.
Member prefer the adoption of a course by which a vote of
censure would be proposed at a subsequent stage of the mea-
sure ? He did not think that would at all alter their situation.
He objected to placing, by any means, or in any way, such
power in the hands of pessans in whom he had no
confidence.—(Loud cheers.) With reference to the measure
itself he would ask the Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland,

if there bad been any period since the Bill was first introduced
up to ti.e present time, that the provisions yf the Act would
have been carried into effect, supposing the Bill had passed
into a law ? If not, then he would say there was no necessity
for the measure. If, however, he should be told that there
was a period when the Act would have come into operation,
then nothing could justify the criminal delay in bringing this
measure forward. Under all these circumstances he considered

it would be dangerous and improper to give such delicate
powers to persons who did not possess the confidence of that
House.

Mr. SPOONER said his Hon. Friend the Member for Dor-
setshire had appealed to him on this question, and he (Mr.
Spooner) assured him that he did not feel the slightest difficulty
in ans.cering him, although his Hon. Friend thought he had
placed him in a very difficult position. He could not admit
.that he was in a difficult position. He greatly doubted
whether the result would not prove that the lion. Member for
Dorsetshire was himself in a difficult position. His Hon.
Friend had rested his opposition to this measure, not upon the
positive fact of its not being necessary, but he inferred its non-
necessity from the conduct of the Ministers. 1-1.3 had like-
wise rested his opposition to this measure upon his want of
confidence in the Ministers ; and then he alluded to it in the
usual way—to the test of a want of confidence in Ministers—
namely, an address to the Crown expressing that to be the opinion
of the House—and he (Mr. Spooner) cheered, that allusion
and that cheer brought forth the appeal. Now, his Hon.
Friend asked him whether he was prepared to vote no confi-
dence in Ministers, and whether he was ready to vote in favour
of the Government of the country going into other hands? Now
he ( Mr. S.) believed that that would be a perfectly constitutional
and Parliamentary course. He did not rest his support of this
measure upon the state in which Ministers were at the present
moment. If his Hon. Friend app, aled to that as a witnes for
. _

the necessity of the measure, he (Mr. Spooner) would appeal
to the statements then lying on the table of that House. He
did not trust simply to the declaration of Ministers. He ap-
appealed to the statements of crime upon the table of the
House ; and, after a careful inspection of these documents, he
felt bound to grant the measure his support, as he believed it
to be essential for the preservation of life and property in Ire-
land.—( Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend had likewise said that
he appealed to the Irish Members on the other side of the
House, and all of them had declared. that the measure was not
necessary ; and even if necessary it would be found to be ineffi-
cient.—(Cheers from the Opposition side of the House.) He
(Mr. Spooner) appealed to all Hon. Members on his own side
of the House ; and, on the contrary, every one of them had
declared that the measure was necessary ; and they told the
House that the moral effect of refusing this measure would be
tremendous in Ireland. Increase of crime, and more out-
rages would, in their opinion, bo the result ; the
rejection of this measure would be an encouragement
to the murderer.—( Hear, hear, and No, no.) They had
told them, that the most serious consequences would follow the
rejection of this measure, sad he (Mr. Spooner) would say,
that he had had the opportunity of conversing with many of
the Hon. Members from Ireland, and particularly with one
who had just returned from Ireland, and he assured bins, that
the well. disposed people of th► t country, apprehended with the
greatest dismay, the rejection of this measure—that its rejec-
tion would, in fact, most seriously endanger the peace of Ire.
land.—(Hear, hear.) Those apprehensions were particularly
en►ertained by those who were called the Canservative party
in Irelani.—( Ironical cheers.) They said that if the House
of Commons rejected this measure, they believed that it wculd
be a triumph to one party in Ireland, whilst it would sink the
other into dismay, and that the consequences were such
as the Members of that House could not anticipate._(hear,
hear.) And lie must say that those friends of the Conserva-
tive party in Ireland who sat. on his side of the House had just
reason to complain—that having stood by the English Member
in the battle which they had recently fought for protection to
native industry—having fairly supported them through all the
arduous struggles in which they had been recently engaged—
( Ironical cries of " Hear, hear," and laughter)—he thought
that they had a just reason to complain that they had not even
been consulted with regard to their views upo❑ this measure.
It was first intimated to them that it was the intention of the.
Noble Lord the Member for Lynn, and those who acted with
him, to vote for the measure, as they conceived it to be
essential to the peace and prosperity of Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) Ile (Mr. Spooner) confessed that when the Noble
Lord rose in his place, and stated, on behalf of himself and those
who usually acted with hies, that it. was the intention of

self and his friends to vote against it, it happened that he (Mr.
Spooner) did not happen to be informed of that intention, and
he did confess that he was strongly tempted at the time to get
up and disclaim any such intention on his own part.-_ (Laugh-
ter.) The Noble Lord had no right to represent h at it was
his (Mr. Spooner's) intention to vote against the Bill. He
was glad that he did not rise at, the moment to check the
Noble Lord, for the delay had given him time coolly to con-
sider what opinion he should entertain and ex2ress, of which
it might afterwards be difficult to get rid. He had given this
measure a cool, and calm, and indifferent consideration.—
(Cries of " Oh ! Oh ! ") He had seen that this measure was
first of all considered necessary by the majority of that House.
lie had seen, too, hove the measure was received in the House
of Lords. He had searched the records of that House, and he
found that its unanimous consent was given to the measure.
He found that those Noble Lords of that highly powerful party
—that influential party in the other House—(Oh, oh )—who
unusually acted in unison with Members on the other side of
that House of Commons voted for it. He contended, then,
that this measure was recommended in a manner which ought
to call for such a support from the Members of the House of
Commons as to suffer it at least to go into Committee.—(Hear,
hear.) He likewise conceived that those who had voted for
the first reading of the measure were called upon to vote for it
in its subsequent stages. As a
general principle, he admitted
that the House
was not bound to do so on every Bill—that was
to say, with regard to Bills which were allowed to be read a
first time as a matter of
4 fa cligeguicen ,flurse. And had they not gone into
" g." '"4# 01.911eilinhaii they iwt the Whole

principle debated fully for five n'ghts prior to its first reading—
he should have admitted that the Members of that House
might change their votes on this the second reading. But
when he remembered how colnplesely its merits and demerits
had been canvassed—when after a lengthy debate they had been
called upon to give their deliberate judgment and opinion upon
the measure, and they had accordingly recorded their votes—he
did say, although he did not pretend to dictate to lion.
Members, that they were pledged by the votes which they had
already given. They were bound in consistency to take good
care and examine whether any circumstances had arisen since
they voted fir its firstreading—whether anything had taken place
to justify them changing their votes, and now turn round
short, and without any reason vote against the second reading.
Something had already happened, probably, to justify that
change.—( An ironical cheer.) Ile understood that cheer—
it, alluded to circumstances which had very recently taken
place—it alluded to the present :position of the Ministers--
—( Hear, hear. ) But -was that sufficient to justify them in
voting against, the second reading, after having voted for the
first? What did the recent change of the position of Minis-
ters involve? It involved the Members of the House in this
difficulty, that. if they consented to withhold their vote in favour
of the measure, because of the delay occasioned by the Mt-
nesters, why then did they give their first vote in favour of
the measure ?—( Hear.) If the measure had been delayed
unnecessarily by the Ministers, was that a reason why it should
be rejected ? When Ministers had at length brought it for-
ward a second time, ought it to be rejected because of the
delay ? He conceived that the measure ought to be preyed
forward with all convenient speed. Ile knew the difficulties
under which Ministers were labourieg at the present thement.
His remembered an expression of the Noble Lord the Member
for Lynn, which was to the effect, that the blood of every mur-
dered person rested upon the heads of the Ministers if they
suffered any unnecessary delay. Ile (Mr. Spooner) woul4
ask the Noble Lord what he now thought of that expression,
and whether, upon the mere ground that Ministers had
hitherto delayed the measure, lie was justified in carrying out
that delay, and if he did not consider that the blood of every
murdered man in Ireland hereafter would rest upon the head
of himself and those who voted against it ? (Hear, hear.)
He (Mr. Spooner) would not give his vote upon this occasion
merely for a party purpose—he was quite sure that he need
not. say that-4 Laughter ) because his position would clear
him of such a charge. He could not consent to Make Ireland
the battle field of party.—(Cheers. ) Ile could not consent to
lend himself to any measue that had merely for its object a
change of administration—( hear, hear)—when he saw that
life and property in Ireland was left unprotected. He could
not, refuse giving his assent to a measure like this, wltich he
really believed would have the effect of giving greater security
to life and property. After a delibet ate judgment, and the
beat consideration he could give to the measure, he must say
that he conscientiously believed it to be imperatively called for.
—( Hear, hear. ) No party considerations or motives would in-
fluence him in the vote which he was about to give. Ile
would ask his Hon. Friend the Member for Dorsetshire
whether his vote was given under similar circumstances? The
vote of that Hon. Member it appeared would be a vote of no
confidence in the Ministry, and one of confidence in the Nob s,
Lord, the Member for London.—( Rear, hear.) Had the Hon.
Member forgotten the conduct of the late Government with
respect to the Irish Church ? Had he forgotten the appropt ia-
tion clause ?—( Hear, hear.) Had he forgotten the manner in
Was lt e preparedad to
tried t
con-
sent
which that party had conducted themselves with regard to
t t partyto
o their
ca t
rash he
policy? Conservatives?
The
hte,
Government
i
govern Ireland by concessions which were dangerous to the
safety of the Protestant Church. Concessions which had
beets found only to call for further concessions.—
( Hear.) Whilst they tried to conciliate a particular party,
they left unpretected and unguarded the people of Ireland.—
(Question.) And that was a charge which had been brought
against the Noble Lord by the very party that he had served.
Much had been said about the delay of her Majesty's Ministers
with regard to this measure, and that it ought to be withdrawn,
because crime had decreased since it was originally brought
forward—a point which he was not willing to concede. But
even supposing that crime had since decreased, that did riot
show the moral effect which it had had upon the people of Ire-
land. Would not the measure for the preservation of life and
property be wanted during the ensuing and future winters?—
( Hear, hear.) He conceived, that if tl.ey wished to
pacify Ireland they must first of all apply coercive
and then conciliatory measures. If he bad refused to
give his support to this measure, after the statements which
had been laid before the House, he should have considered him-
self to have grossly abandoned his defy. It was not his cus-
tom to trespass long upon the attention of the House—(Oh,
oh)—and he should, therefore, briefly conclude by assuring the
House that he would be quite prepared hereafter to give his
support to any measure of relief to Ireland, by whatsoever
'Member itmight be brought forward.—(Cheers.) Whatever
might be the suns proposed for the substantial relief of
Ireland, he should most willingly vote for the grant.
They most take into consideration the condition of that
country, for which God had done so much and man so little
and if they did, they would find the Irish people would evince
their proverbial gratitude and appreciation of the kindness dis-
played towards them.

- Mr. SHEIL—Sir, necessity is sometimes the bane of the
best Government, and of a bad one, very frequently the worst
pretence ; and in this instance that it is a pretence and not an
argument, I have risen for the purpose of showing. I consider
that the criminality of Ireland is the result of that treatment
which has been applied to her by those who now propose the
present measure as a remedy for it, and that, consequently, the
argument they have drawn from the necessity of the case is a
bad one. Following out this view, I shall have occasion to
animadvert, in the remarks I am about to make,
on the policy which the Government has for some
time past pursued with regard to Ireland. Often
has it been my lot to condemn the measures which the Right
Hon. Baronet brought forward in connexion with that coun-
try, and when I tin so I ought to remember that it is to the
Right Hon. Gentleman himself that I am indebted for the
privilege of pronouncing his condemnation.—(Laughter.)
And as, when the Right Hon. Gentleman was in the hey-day of
his power—in the high and exalted position which he held at
the head of the party which had taken him so long to con-
struct, but which was now reduced to such a slate of dilapida-
tion, as I hope 1 always avoided then any offensive per-
sonality or malignant recrimination—now, when his fortune
has changed, when lie has descended from that pinnacle,
where he was then placed, and when a cloud haspassed over his
splendid career, it shall be my care that the animadversions 1
may find it my duty to make shall not be associated with bitter-
ness.—( Hear, hear.) I own that I do not despair of the
Right, Bon. Baronet, and I dwell with pleasure on the anti-
cipation that he who has exhibited such inconsistency, and at
length changed his views to so great an extent with regard
to the commercial affairs of this country, will yet give a
glorious consummation to the Irish policy.—( Hear.) But I
have used an infeliciteus expression. Mere consistency does
not depend upon a servile subserviency to your own fallacies or
to the passions of your party ; the truly consistent statesman
does not so much topsider what it has been his mistake to have
done as what it has become his high duty to do ; lie does not.
look back at his own yesterdays, but looks forward to his
country's glorious morrow ; the welfare of that country is Lot
his chief object only because it. is his only one. Fixing his eyes
upon that solitary point—bright, eternal, and unsetting—how-
ever the wind may blow and however the current may set,
by that immutable light he steers his apparently irregular
but in truth undeviating way.--( Hear, hear.) Having
now performed the office of hypothetical panegyrist, 1 will
new pass to a more distasteful task—that of finding fault
with the Right Hon. Baronet. I believe it was the intention
of the Right Hon. Gentleman, when he passed the Catholic
Emancipation Bill, :had he remained then in power, to
have carried the spirit of that measure into effect. He
made a speech on that occasion, a passage of which was, in my
opinion, of more importance than the recent allusions which
have been made to that period. He then enumerated the
various times when Coercion Bills had been tried, and when
the result expected from them did not follow. He said that
for the purpose of showing that coercive measures had
frustrated their intentions, and that some other
remedy must be applied to the grievances of the country.
But how did the Right Hon. Gentleman act when that Bill be-
came law, and when he was subsequently obliged to go into op•
position? The Right Hun. Baronet exerted himself to the
utmost—did his worst, to obstruct the Whigs in their efforts to
carry the principles of the Emancipation Bill into effect, and to
ameliorate the condition of Ireland. I will just instance two
examples of the course of conduct he pursued—the Municipal
Bill and the Irish Registration Bill. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman announced his intention of assimilating the franchises
of England and Ireland, but what a comment was
that announcement on the conduct of the Right Hon.
Gentleman since. With regard to the line of proceeding on
the Irish Registration Bill, I will say that it is a disgrace to
my party. Perhaps the object intended when the Whigs were
in power was to molest or obstruct their antagonists. As
soon, however, as the Right Hon. Baronet came into powei,
molestation was set aside; and though session after
session the Secretary of State promised to bring in
a Bill upon the subject, we are now almost
on the verge of a general election, and instead
of a Registration Bill, a Coercion Bill was introduced.
The Right Hon. Baronet had found himself entangled in a
web whose intricate mazes he himself had spun. The Right
Hon. Baronet endeavoured by his sayings to counteract his
doings, but I think we are told by Shakspere that--e
" 'Tis a kind good thing to say ;"
but wh.n he shook the confidence of one party he
did not succeed in gaining the confidence of the
other. Every man in Ireland who could write with
force—every man who could speak with contagious.
energy—all classes, the priesthood and the hierarchy of Ireland
—every man was arrayed in dire hostility against them, and
the agitation for repeal which succeeded was the con-
sequence of those measures which they had brought for-
ward. What did you do to meet that state of things ?
You dismissed the repeal magistrates. Then followed the
state prosecutions, which were carried on in the spirit of
oppressive blundering, and the world shortly afterwards beheld
the liberator of his Catholic countrymen incarcerated by a
Protestant jury, at the instigation of the man by whom the
Jury Act had been carried. How then can you wonder,
whenj ustice had committed suicide, that this shouS3 have pro-
duced its influence on the other classes of the community ?
It is not a change in the constitution which is required, but a
change in the policy of the Government. Compare the re-
sults of the Government with that of Lord Normanby; and
in the first place let me ask you how that Government was
constituted ? Lord Normanby, the Lord-Lieutenant of Irelend,
was beloved by the people ; his chief secretary was my Lord
Morpeth. I must beg your pardon, Sir, for breaking the
order of the House, and I will only say that his name is
sufficient to be mentioned to secure him praise. His under
secretary was Mr. Drummond, who, though not born in Ire-
land, was morn than an Irishman in his love of the country.
Mr. Wolfe and Sir M. O'Loghlin, the ornaments of the Catholic
bar, were respectively your Attorney and Solicitor-Generals
There were conductors between the Government and the
people. The Government was supported by every man of in-
fluence in the country—it was supported by every one of the
Catholic body, and every Catholic clergyman became in some
sort an unappointed constable.—(Hear, hear.) But unless you
should think that my evidence ought to he listened to with
suspicion, let me read a passage to you on the tt Past and Pre.
sent Policy towards Ireland," a book not written in a hostile
spirit towards the Right Hen. Baronet ; on the contrary, it is
fraught with praise founded upon anticipation. The writer
rapid improvement
tNormanby
saysii,n that Inland never
Government na
anti under him for the first time the Irish Catholics
began to feel that the Government cared for their
interests, au] the question of the repeal of the Union
ade
m o
ofre a
Lord
was almost forgotten and discarded. The author then adverts
to a meeting held at Mallow, where upwards of one hundred
thousand prisons were assembled tn prelent an address to Lord
Normanby. They owned that they had belonged o the part}
who hail agitated for the repeal of the Union, but that in conse-
quence of the opinion which they entertained of his Exeel-
tansy, arid of his great and liberal policy, they tendered their
resignation of that question, or any other which might appear
to alienate their affections front England. Now, I think that
statement which I have submitted to you plainly de-
monstrates to you that for the necessity of the
measure their exists no grounds whatever. But from
the consideration of this point, I will pass to another
more immediate to the question at issue. If the Government
conceives this Bill to be necessary, if they regarded it as abso-
lutely indispensable, if they thought that without this Bill
murder could net be arrested in its career, what is the reason
that Parliament was not called in the month of November last?
—(Cheers.) When the Government were conscious that
they had two great questions before the Legislature. why was
it that Parliament was not called in the month of November ?
It has again and again been asserted during the course of this
debate tiatthe Gov apt won 0040 t, trig toe Ord

their Coercion Bill in the House of Lords ; to that assertion no
answer has as yet been submitted.— (Hear, hear.) An entire
month elapsed before the Bill was brought forward, and you
cannot say that your Bill was not ready--it consists of no more
than three pages ._(Hear, hear.) And when that Bill came
down from the thelse you did not suggest any good reasons
why it should not have passed before your Corn Bill. The
Irish ports were opened for the importation of Indian corn ;
you ought to have given a protection for life before you took
protection from corn. But there exists no necessity for the
Bill ; and if you examine the statements made by the Hon.
Baronet, you must see that there has been no case made. In
the Queen's speech it was stated that of late the crime of as-
sassination has been of frequent perpetration ; and when the
Right Hon. Baronet the Home Secretary introduced the mea-
sure, he stated distinctly that the disturbances were confined
to five counties, and by a few ruffians in those counties, and
that the mass of the people were untainted. The Right Hon.
Baronet further said that in those counties which were tainted
the crimes were committed by bands of ruffians, but that the
number of persons in those lands were insignificant when com-
pared with the great body of the people. He then went
on to say that the effect of the Bill would be
to punish the districts where crime occurred by causing
them to maintain the force requisite to maintain order; and
now I ask, has a case been made out for this Bill—have any
substantial facts been put forward to show you that a Bill of
this kind, which is to last three years, should receive your con-
sent—and has a case been made out for the original conclusion
of this Bill, which, when it was first introduced, was intended
to be imposed everlastingly upon Ireland, and to be incorpo-
ra.ed with the institutiGns of the country ?—(Cheers. ) I turn
now to the speech made by the Noble Lord the Secretary for
Ireland. That speech consisted in a catalogue of the offences—and
I am not disposed to dispute the accuracy of the statement of the
Noble Lord but he ti.d not point out the efficacy of the
remedy, nor had it been attempted to show how this measure
would prevent crime in Ireland. How is it that nocturnal
coercion will prevent diurnal outrage ? if you cage the owls,
what is to become of the falcons?—( Loud cheers.) The Noble
Lord said that the Arms Bill had completely failed. When
that statement was made, the Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment signified by his look that he thought that the Noble Lord
had come in a state of nature from the woods and forests—

( Laughter and cheers)—and that he stood in need of the finely
wrought integuments of the mind which are so abundantly
supplied in the Home-office.—(Cheers.) But the admission is
one of the utmost importance. We cannot but recollect the fierce
contentions of party which took placeupon this very Arms' Bill,
and if you look at Hansard you will find that two or three
volumes are occupied with it. You then conceived that we
were then influenced by factious motives. We rest cur
present predictions on the truth of our former vaticinations.
You ask, n hat is to be done ? You say that the measure is
indispensible, and you have undertaken to show that a great
part of these evils can be cured by the force of this law. The
Crown Solicitor for the county of Tipperary, does not reside
in the county. He has the whole province of Lcinster in the
range of his profess'onal employment. He goes down twice a
year to the sessions and remains afe e days. He is utterly
ignorant of the locality—he is utterly ignorant of the character
of the witnesses—utterly ignorant of the characters of the
defendants—so that it is impossible that he should know
anything of the parties.—( Hear, hear.) The cases are
given to the counsel to the Crown ; and of the counsel
to the Crown I say nothing more than this—that the counsel
employed by the prisoner are generally superior, incomparably
superior ; and the Hon. Gentleman the Recorder for the City
of Dublin will admit that what I now say is perfectly true.
But I can give a stronger proof that I am right in the view
I take of the case. You have, again and again, referred to the
evidence of Mr. Cahill, and the Noble Lord the Secretary to
the Lord-Lieutenant has referred to Mr. Cahill twice. The
Prime Minister has referred to his evidence, and the Hon.
Secretary for the Home Departmen has, no doubt, read his
evidence. .Mr. Cahill, at the commencement of his
examination, said—and you must admit the import-
ance of its hearing on this question You are
aware that in Tipperary there is a court called the Court of
Assize. The president of this court is Mr. Leigh Howley ; in
consideration of his services the office was given to him. Mr.
Leigh Howley is assisted by Mr. Cahill • and what has been
fhe result? The face of the county of Tipperary in which
crime was prevalent, and which was the scene of so much-
bloodshed, has been materially changed. Mr. Cahill was exa-
mined on that point, and in his evidence he said that these
facts had been considerably reduced. The superior administra-
thm of the laws had created a disposition of confidence
amongst the people. If there be any truth in his evidence, I
think that it affords a strong proof that this is not
a measure which we should resort to as we are about to do.
There are other and political considerations connected with
this important question, which you ought not to dismiss from
your m'nds—namely, the effect that this measure will have in
stimulating political agitation ; a remedy for which you have
wished so much, and which you have taken such small pains
to find. NE ver hasten this measure, but give the measure its
due weight. You ought to consider with the deepest attention,
the fact, that in any measure intended for Ireland, there
never was such great caution indispensable—( Hear,
hear.) The repeal of the corn-laws in Ireland
ought to make you beware how you administer to the popular
excitement.—(" Hear," from the Ministerial benches.) Let
me be permitted to explain myself. There are in Ireland two
great parties in the constitution—the proprietors of the soil and
those who till it. Neither of these parties want intelligence;
their powers are developed. These two parties are both affected
by this measure ; the interest of the one party, and the passions
of the other. lam one of those who think that the repeal of
the corn-law will ultimately be a benefit to Ireland, because I
am confident that what is for the prosperity of one country
must be for the prosperity of another. Ido not think that the
measure is overvalued, but such is not the impression of the
Protestant gentry of Ireland. They conceive that you do them
wrong. They think that you have begun an attack on them,
by depriving them of their market, and putting them on a foot-
ing with Holland and Belgium, and relaxing one of the laws of
the country. I admit that they err in their judgment to a great
extent, but at the same time you must remember that the
Right Hon. Baronet wished the repeal of the corn-laws would
have a certain effect upon Ireland, and at the same time he has
relieved Ireland from the payment of 200,0001., which was
pressing on her manufactures, thereby admitting that a
certain incumbrance will be the effect of this Bill. Many an
old Cromwellian. long bending under the burdens of his snort-
gages, will now fall under the burden as soon as the repeal
of the corn-laws comes into operation. It seems to
me to be in some degree impolitic on your part that you will
by this measure excite the alarm of that class of men on whom
you have hitherto relied for support, and that you should also,
at the same time, administer to the excitement of the popular
party. The Secretary-at-War used, when speaking on this
subject, the words " dismemberment of the empire," and my
lion. Vriend the Member for Kilkenny, who was fired by the
spark, remonstrated with him on the subject. My Hon. Friend
has no intention of dismembering the empire. My Him.
Friend said that in his opinion, the repeal of the Union was
calculated to produce that result. If that be the case, and
the dismemberment of the empire wilt be the result of the
repeal of the Union, you would be including both countries
in one common ruin. Is it not the consummation of
impolicy on our part to furnish those champions
of repeal, with an opportunity to impose on Ireland a law
which no Minister was sufficiently adventurous to impose upon
the country for the purl uses of protection. No English
Minister would have ventured
,to impose such a law on this
country. No English Minister would have imposed such a law
upon south Lancashire, where the same state of things has
existed. Was it suggested to impose such a law on South
Lancashire when, in 1519, the six Acts were framed,
and when large bodies of men were disciplined with
a view to military organization. Look afterwards in the year
1830, to the state of Kent, and five other counties in the
south of England, and at the system of incendiarism which
then prevailed. Was any such measure attempted to be im-
posed as that on which the Government are now resolved?
On a measure of this kind the Secretary for the Home De-
partment, then Mr. Peel, would have made out with Parlia-
mentary definitions, the necessity for forwarding a measure of
this kind, and might have described the various reasons
alluding to the crimes -.which had occurred in England
as an inducement to pass the "English Conservation Bill."
No such measure was ever adopted with respect to Wales.
You did not adopt any measure of this kind in Wales. You
acted on the honourable principle, on which the incorporation
of Wales with England is founded, and which Mr. Burke, in
a speech which he made, praised as an. immortal paction.
Why is it that we are considered unworthy of the privileges of
Englishmen? Are we less entitled to the rights of British
subjects ? I am afraid to tell the truth, that you are in-
fluenced by the spirit of your ancient masterdom. It
appears to me to be the great fault of English
statesmen, that they ought to observe that a vast change
has taken place in the character of the Irish people, for in this
case the Union has contributed much to he education of the
people. Again, and again, I refer to the progress of educati
in Ireland. You have given a high price for their education,
but you ought to have looked at its results. Perhaps, you
imagined that the education of the people of Ireland could not
be attended by any important political consequer ce. You
were mistaken, for you will find in their cabins, books con-
taining narrative; and passages of sublime morality, and
catechisms of the fortunes and history of the country:
It appears to me that there is no occasion for the passing of this
Bill. I call upon you to reject the Bill, because there is no
evidence of its necessity. There is no proof that the Bill will
obtain its purpose—there is no sort of evidence to show that
the Bill will be more successful than those which have pre-
ceded it. As there is no necessity for the further abolition of
that great principle on which the union rests, and because
there is an intention to avail themselves of that union f.r the
purpose of inflicting on the Irish people that against which the
Irish empire remonstrates, I, for one, shall vote against the
Bill.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he would not attempt
to follow the Right lion. Gentleman through his very discur-
sive speech. but he would attempt to show to the House that
the present measure was called for in Ir.land for the protection
of the lives and property of the peaceably disposed. (The lion.
Member from this moment was perfectly inaudible in the gal-
lery for above a quarter of an hour.) Measures of this descrip-
tion had proved successful before, and he, for one, could not
see why this one should not do so. In 1835 the number of
crimes committed in Ireland was 8,000, and the consequence
was, the Legislature passed a Coercion Bill. It proved effi-
cacious, and in 1837 the number of crimes had fallen to 6,000.
A motion was then made to repeal the Act, but its working
had proved so satisfactory that only three Members could be
found to support it. The Bill eventually ceased to be opera-
tive, and since that time crime had progressively increased;
indeed, in 1845, it had reached 8,025 more even than in 1835.
Could any executive in this state of things sit still without at-
tempting to apply a remedy—and what better remedy, he asked
could they find than that which was dictated by experience C—
(Hear, hear.) Another reason which rendered it imperatively
necessary for them to make an effort to apply a remedy was
that in no_country in the world did the number of crimes com-
mitted bear such a disproportion to the number of offenders
brought to justice as in Ireland,—(Hear, hear.) In disturbed
districts, out of 1,185 crimes committed last year, only 54 of
the perpetrators were brought to justice. (Hear, hear.)
Not less than 1,000 outrages had taken place in five counties in
Ireland within the period of five months, and surely in such a
state of things the inhabitants of Ireland—the industrious and
The
Learned inhabitants—were entitled to
Learned Solicitor-General then read a list of crimes
crimes committed
in that country for five months in 1845, and the a
in 1846, defining the particular character of eachosffcT period
ce ;
such was the confusion at the bar, the but
occasional cries of
" Divide, divide," and other noises, that the speaker's stases
merit could not be heard in the;
hse gallery. The Hon. and
amidst Learned Gentleman resumed,
great confusion and loud
cries of "Divide, divide," by declaring that he conscientiously
bslicved this measure to be imperatively called for. lie should
give it his cordial support.
The Marquis of CH ANDOS said it was his intention to
have given a silent vote upon that occasion, but had lie done so
he might have been liable to the imputation of assenting to the
language and invectives which had been so frequently used in
the course of the debate.---( Hear, hear.) With regard to the
reasons which had induced him to support the Bill, he had
but little difficulty in finding the most ample grounds for the
vote he was about to give in the speech of the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Ireland. The statements which the Noble Lord
made had since been confirmed by reports and returns which
no one had attempted to disprove; and seeing that the exist-
ing law was not sufficient for the maintenance and security of
life and property in Ireland, he had no hesitation in placing the
powers of this Bill at the disposal of her Majesty's Government.
—( Hear, hear.) It had been urged by some lion. Gentle-
men that the minority ought to give way to the opinions of the
majority, but he would, for one, never yield to the opinion of
tl.e majority when he found it was not supported by argument
or 0911Vidinsr(Criel of" War; heir.") M to_ the pee .