The Sun.
London, England, 1846-04-22 00:00:00

no more real necessity for bringing the parties over here upon a
railroad than there was upon a grand-jury road, for that the
same parties were as capable of judging of one as of the other.
He begged leave to second the motion. -
Sir R. PEEL said it was quite clear that the House was
prepared for the discussion of the question introduced by the
Hon. Member, and there were several motions already before
the House upon the subject. But in reference to the railroad
question, he begged to remind the Hon. Member that the mo-
tion he intended to make on Thursday would be to the effect
that unless a certain number of scripholders agreed to the car-
rying on of a railway scheme, it ought not to be carried on.
—( Hear.) But the Honourable Member had remarked
that certain persons in Ireland were as capable of
udging then of the merits of a railroad as of
the common roads ; but let him remind the Hon. Member
that was not the motion of the Hon. Member near him.
That Hon. Member proposed that the Speaker should appoint
a Commission to make inquiries in reference to railways in
Ireland, which now belonged to the House of Commons to
do. In a future session of Parliament, of course, there would
be a much less pressure on account of railways than in the
present session. The experience of the present session would
enable them to determine what course they should pursue
hereafter. It was quite clear that they ought not to sacrifice
private property unless for some public good. He thought
the House could not affirm such a proposition as that
which had been made by the Honourable Gen-
tleman—(Hear, hear)—upon such a discussion as that which
had taken place. The Honourable Gentleman would not of
course propose to give the power to a Commission of five
to legislate. He would not, of course, give a Commission
the power to take land. If he did not propose that, Legis-
lation by that House would still be necessary.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said he proposed that the matter
should be determed by a local board—the county board for
instance. He would also suggest that the Commission should re-
port to the House.
Sir R. PEEL said, the Commission would merely have to
make certain preliminary inquiries. Now, the Honourable
Gentleman should consider, that to this proposition, to make it
effective, they must have the sanction of the House of
Lords. Supposing the Commission to be appointed, there
would be no saving of expense, because the parties,
if they were not satisfied with the decision of the
Commission might appeal to the House and have the whole
matter again investigated by the House of Commons. Con-
sidering that the House was not prepared for this discussion, he
hoped the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw the motion, and
not put the House to the necessity of expressing an opinion
upon it. It was quite clear that it could not be assented to.
All the Government could assent to was, the consideration of
the question whether certain inquiries now committed to the
House of Commons might not be transferred to a tribunal ap•
pointed by the House and under the control of the House, but
reserving all legislation to the House of Commons.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought the House was in a position to
consider the motion, and he should therefore press it.
Mr. C. PO WELL thought his Hon. Friend was warranted
in pressing the motion.
Mr. WAKLEY said that there were so many drains upon
the resources of Ireland, that if the Hon. Gentleman should
press the motion he (Mr. Wakley) should support it. He,
however, thought it would be better to postpone the motion for
the present, and bring it forward at a time when the House
would be better prepared to express an opinion upon it. He
had the greatest objection to entrusting these matters to the
consideration of local boards, because such bodies must have
great local interests and prejudices. He must say that he could
not see how the principle advocated by the Hon. Gentleman
was to be carried into effect, but certainly, considering the ex-
penditure that took place in Ireland, and also in this country, a
stop ought to be put to the exhaustion of Ireland by ab-
senteeism.
Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON said that after the observa-
tions made by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Limerick,
and seconded by the Hon. Member for Roscommon, and agree.
ing as he did with their views, he thought himself bound to
vote for his motion. He thought that some regulation should
be made to avoid many of the expenses incidental to the
manner in which the Irish railways were bronght forward
in London. A great number of witnesses were brought
forward, and the proposed arrangement would be of great ad.
vantage in diminishing the expense. He must, however, ask
the Hon. Gentleman, whether he meant the proposition to
apply to those railway schemes now before Parliament, or to
such as might be undertaken in future, because he appre-
hended that very few of the Irish railways which had come
before Parliament this session were in a condition to avail
themselves of the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman if it
were carried. He thought that the House should clearly un •
derstand, whether the proposal was intended for the advantage
of future railway companies, or for those at present before the
House. He did not think that at the present late period of
the session any extensive change in the manner of bringing
forward these Bills could be of advantage.
Colonel CONOLLY said he was not disposed to raise any ,
objection to a course which had already been found to be benc-
finial, but the Hon. Member for Limerick had overlooked a
very important consideration, viz., that the greater portion of
the money invested in Ireland and Irish railways came from
England ; and as the introduction of English capital in Ire-
land was a very desirable consideration, he would be very sorry
to acquiesce in any proposal which offered any impediment to
such introduction. With respect to the course suggested by
the Hon. Member for Roscommon, he thought that such a
course would be the one most calculated to encourage discord
and trouble in Ireland.
Mr. F. FRENCH said that his Hon. Friend had misun-
derstood the statement he had made.
Colonel CONOLLY said that he should be very sorry to
misrepresent any of his countrymen—( Laughter)—or any Hon.
Member in that House. The House had already found it
necessary to separate all parties, all locally interested, from the
consideration of the railway scheme in which they might be
concerned ; and how could it descend from that high ground,
to leave these matters for the consideration of a small district,
with the possibility of very material difference of opinion on
the subject.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL said that he thought that, on refe-
rence to the list of the shareholders in Irish railways, it would
be found that a considerable portion of the capital subscribed
was from Ireland, while there were a large number of English
names, which were merely samples of that zoological anomaly
called the stag. There was such a thing as a precedent of a
Commission in Ireland, and all that was asked for was, that
instead of taking people over from the remote parts of Ireland,
such as Donegal, Galway, and Kerry, they should constitute
a serf's of Commissions, which would hear all the evidence,
and prepare a report of it for the Parliamentary Committees.
It had been calculated that every railway Bill which had come
before the House had cost, on an average, 3,070/. for prelimi-
nary expenses ; and if they multiplied that amount by
the number of Irish railway Bills say twenty or
thirty Bills—what an amount that would give.—(Hear.)
All he asked simply was, to consider whether they would, by
commission or otherwise, endeavour to get rid of the incon-
venience of bringing people over here at the busy time of the
year—many of them men of business—and thus expending the
money out of the country. In doing this he would be benefit-
ing all classes, from the day-labourers throughout every
business and- trade. It was doing great injustice to Ireland
the bringing away the money of the country to swell the
overgrown gains of this great capital. He would support the
motion of his Hon. Friend, as he considered it a just and
proper proposition.
Mr. WILLIAMS hoped, after the explanation of the Right
Hon. Baronet, that the Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. S. O'Brien)
would not press his motion. The Right Hon. Baronet had
expressed himself willing in any future press of railway
business to consider the propriety of taking evidence, not only
in Ireland but in other parts of the empire. That information
would suffice at present. He was anxious as any one to sup-
port measures for the benefit of Ireland, but be objected to do
so on the present occasion, because the object would be better
carried out if left to the Government, after the declaration
which the Right Hon. Baronet had made. If the Right
Hon. Baronet omitted to take up the question, the Hon.
Gentleman would bring it forward at another time with better
chance of success.
After a few words from Mr. FREWEN, against the
motion,
Mr. ROCHE hoped his Hon. Friend would not be induced
by the Hon. Member for Coventry from abstaining from di-
viding the House. It was plain on the whole, it was never
the right time to do justice to Ireland. Whenever any pro-
position was made to benefit Ireland, some doctrine of politi-
cal economy was dug up, to' show that it was not the right
time for adopting it: He could not see how it was that
the Right Honourable Baronet had not acceded to
the motion, as every one who acceeded to it
admitted that some interference was necessary. Much Irish
money was spent in this country, and men of business were
delayed most inconveniently in consequence of the present
system. He called upon the Government to do something in,
the matter. He protested against the putting off of the
question ; against the demand for a long day for Ireland. He
said, that when a question of this kind was brought forward,
when all classes in Ireland had united in taemortalising the
Right Hon. Baronet, it was not right Str just to say that the
mode in which they wished to egrry it out was not the proper
one, and he thought the moss lay with the Right Hon. Baronet
to prove that it was natural.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was under-
stood to say that he did not wish to prolong the diseussEan, but
he could not help thinking that the Hon. Member seemed to
suppose that a resolution of that House would be binding upon
the House of Lords, Such could not be tb,, case; and be
thought it better that the Hon. Member for Limerick should
defer his motion.
Colonel RAWDON said it appeared to him that the motion
was not sufficiently understood, and perhaps be might be per-
mitted therefore to read the motion as it appeared upon the
paper. The motion was, " That, with a view to diminish the
ineonvenienee and expense now incurred in carrying through
Parliament Bills for the construction of Railways in Ireland, '
is expedient that, in the ease of Irish Railway Bills, all such
irt London, by Committees el
inquiries as are now conducted
both Houses of Parlianseut, should, after the terminatio,o the
present session', tahe place in Ireland." Now villein the P.lght
Hon, the gianeellor of the Exchequer apßeared to think that
tits motion railway Le • t* in Ireland would
be taken away from both is
he was mistaken.
He was informed by an Ran. Member beside him that in one.
instance not less than thin:Ml:ye witnesses had been kept in
town entkreV, at a great expenco and inconvenience, and he
thAtlght that Whell evidence might be taken in Dublin the
sooner it was done the better.
After a few words from Mr. F. FRENCH in explanation,
Mr. DILLON BROWNE said that it was a most ire lPor toast matter that in the present distress some
understanding
should be come to on the subject.
The Olery was then cleared.
The House then divided, when there appeared,
For the motion . . 25
Against it
MajoriPLAty against it... —44
POLINGPLACES (IRELAND) BILL.
The House went into Committee on this Bill. The report
was ordered to be brought up this day (Wednesday).
COMMONS INCLOSURE BILL.
The House went into Committee, and the report was or-
dered to be brought up this day.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock.

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