The Sun.
London, England, 1848-07-05 00:00:00

THE RAILWAY COMMISSION.

Mr. BANKES then rose to ask for leave to intro-
duce a Bill to abolish the Railway Commission Act. One
of the Ministers had stated that the House of Com-
mons was entirely to blame for all the extravagance
into which the Government had been driven. It this
were so, the time surely had arrived when it was in-
cumbent upon the House of Commons to redeem its
character in this respect ' • if so, the House of Commons
should exercise a greater degree of vigilance than it had
hitherto done. He did not admit the charge on the
broad ground .on which it had been made. The Go-
vernment were responsible for adopting the sug-
gestions that were made to them. It was gene-
rally admitted that the railway board had not
given satisfaction to the public and railway companies.
It was necessary that he should direct the attention of.
the House to the manner in which Government had ex-
ercised its authority in reference to railways. The
power was first given to them in 1839, and the Act giving
the power remained in force down to 1844, when it was
repealed, and another Act passed establishing a railway
department of the Board of Trade. From 1839.t0 1844
the cost to the country of Government interference
in railway matters was only 1,3701. ; from 1844 to 1846
it was 3,3601. In August, 1846, an Act was smuggled
through Parliament almost without discussion creating
the Railway Commission, and it appeared that the ex-
pense of that Commission from the period of its first
existence amounted to no less a sum' than
17,0001. He had stated, when he had before brought
the subject before the House, that this charge of 17,000!.
was for a year and a quarter; but he had been corrected
by the Chancellorof the Exchequer, that it was for a
year arid live months. Now, he found that 'the Right
Hon. Gentleman was in error, as the commissioners had
not entered into office until the 9th of November, so that

it was, in fact, for a year and two months that the
charge was made. The Act passed on the 28th of
August, and the commissioners sta4ed in their report
that-they entered upon the. dut;es of their office o❑ the
"ath of November, 1846. The charge 'for the Railway
Commission for the present' year was 13,5221. The
Noble Lord had said, as he understood him, that it was
not his intention to fill up the office of Chief Railway
Commissioner now, but he had not engaged not .to do so
at some future time.
Lord.J. RUSSELL had said that he should not fill up
the office, and that he should not ask for any salary on
account of the office.

Mr. BANKES resumed—He had brought the matter
before the House six weeks ago, and his motion had been
defeated, but only bysa small majority. The amount, it
was true, was not large; but the question was valuable as
one of economy. It had been said that the session was
nearly over, and that the House had done nothing. But
as far as it bad been iu the power of that side of the
House, they had if:aim:led upoh the Government the t

SUN,

importance of economy. The Government had wished
to impose a five per cent. income-tax, and if Hon. Gen-
tlemen around him had only prevented that they had
done something, particularly as the Government had
thereby been indueed to revise their estimates, and had
saved half a million without having, as he supposed
they would assure the House, in any degree infringed
upon the efficiency of the public service. He
now called upon the Government to revise
the expenditure incurred upon the Railway Com-
mission, which might have been a very proper
experiment, but which had been followed by no be-
neficial, results whatever. A blue book of 200 pages
bad been, it was true, printed, which might just as well
have been contained in twelve pages, so that he had not
only to regret the ether expense' incurred by the com-
mission, but that the House had also incurred the ex-
pense of printing these very valueless records. A
Committee of that House had, it was true, recommended
the appointment of a Railway Commission, but they had
no idea that so great an expense would 'have been in-
curred, and nothing would be found in their report
which would in any degree justify so large an establish-
ment as the Government had thought proper to appoint.
Here was a charge amounting to four times the sum
expended when the duties were as well performed as
they were now—he did not say that they were as well
performed now as they ought to be. What was the
good performed by the commissioners which would
justify Parliament in voting this amount ? He did not
say it was desirable that the railways should be left with-
out supervision, but his complaint was that there was no
supervision in the present Bill. During the last
session of Parliament it was a matter of common occur-
rence for Committees of that House to be delayed for
two or three days, and be compelled to adjourn
from time to time, in consequence of the non-
arrival of the reports of the Railway Com-
missioners. And when the reports were received
they were of very little value. He thought it would be
better for the House to leave the matter to the Board of
Trade, and if that Board appointed persons competent as
scientific men, the House would then obtain what they
could not from a Board constituted as the Railway Com-
mission was, and their reports and proceedings would
obtain the confidence of the public, which was of itself a
great advantage, besides the benefit of a large reduction
of expenditure. The Hon. Member concluded by moving
for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the Railway Com-
mission.

Mr. LABOUCHERE would admit that it was the
duty of the House to economize the public money in
every way consistent with the due performance of the
public service. The present salaries and expenses of
the Railway Commissioners (after deducting the salary
of the Chief Coinmissioner, which office it was not
proposed to fill up), and 'including 'the contingent ex-
penses of the department, were 10,7001. He believed
the expenses incurred by the department of the Board
of Trade which had the superintendence of railways
was about
.4,000/. per annum. But it was a great
mistake to suppose that if the House sent back the
railway business to the Board of Trade as' a red-
.:7o,T board, it 'could be discharged at the same ex-
;penaci as ,fornierly. The business had • enormously
increased since that time in every way,
pf thkgreat development of the railway system, and
on account
Of the expense which that development occasioned, bet
Still more ott account of the additional functions which
;Varliament ,had from time to time thrown upon the
Railivai.Comi4iibionees, and which, of course, must be
performed hy.thae board. His epinion, then, was, that
as a matter of economy the House would deceive them-
Selves if they,thenght that a great saving would be
.effected by 'abolishing this Commission and transferring
, its duties. back, to the Board of Trade, The report of
h Ccena-issioners,*which had been lately laid
:t4pl:alw
tiiie•taaYbio, contained an account .of the important
funeticuis aid,dutiee which froth tine to time it had beef'
the'pleasurenf Parliament to throw upon that conimis-
must be admitted upon a perusal of that re-
iii;oint,,t,. ahnit
Leadilition
the
business' to that which had
~,been tranheted by the -Board of Trade had been lei.),
"litrge. The Itight,'Hon:- Gentleilittd. then, )abeerifing
that he Was, tin siilling tn:"Weary the - House'alith details,read f'froiri the report seleral heads'
or item Of '.'rail-
*etai'rbtiSitiesS; 4 tinder' ' which 'the, - Attie done ` or the
Ccontiiiiiinfieri:","Tuid= „beets~ ireatly-: itpreasea . 'Since
-the 'Ptrl6d ' ' Whin) tile' ' duties' alert) '• performed by
the Board of Trade. He observed :thee prior to- 1543
rihiie,i-Tre lkly -
1,962,-.oiletrihrttilway open in this
-Vdfn'try; Alice -Which, a; MO! miles had, been opened, and
, at this-end-of the, fear it might be expected there would
-he a further addition of :r,200' miles. This great deve-
lopment•: of railways had' thrown 'great laboUr and ex.-
pense upon the Comaiiision, besides those' duties which
-were connected with the- openinglX lines and -of inspec-
thin. 'With respect to inquiry into cases of accident, he
had the satisfaction,ol4- Stating that, partly owing 9. the
-irseful•saggestions which. aka Govirument bad received
-from various, railway. companies who had come forward
and 'met them_int4lrankest spirits accidents upon rail-
wtys had every greatly diminished--(hear)—that raik
• waYs, were safer-.than' they were, and that the system
"had worked' well in this respect, as regarded the security
' of:. the' public when. travelling. The heads of by-laws
-and eiesp trains bad also caused much additional
business to the Commission. The lion. Getitleman
had, amused. the commissioners .of not having done
their Atluty:in enforcing the provisions of the Rail-
,atisy: acts.. Cases, 'ef. that kind had come ',before
them, and it had been considered that generally the best'
.aourse to.. pursue. was one which by amicable adjust-
ment secured justice to the public, and avoided litigation
and dispute. 'A most important question had lately'
nrisen under this head 'with a powerful railway company,
and as it was now pending he would make no further
allusion to it, except to remark :that the case had re'-'
ceived the most anxious attention, and that the Commis-
sioners were prepared to take whatever course the exi-
gency might require. He might add, that other arduous
duties had been thrown upon the Railway Commis-
sion by the numerous applicatiOns for extension of time.
His doubts as to the propriety of reverting to the old
system rested much more, however upon the nature or
quality of the" business to be transacted by the Commis-
sion, than upon the amount of it. The questions referred
tn'the Railway Department involved nice questions of
law and an immense amount of property-. This rendered
it highly important if the House chose to refer such
matters to a Government departnient, that that depart-
ment should be so constituted as to give weight to its'de-
cisions and carry with them the public respect.
The queatiOns ought to be determined by men of
high station and of prominent and established cha-
racter ;: for that was the only shield which a public
department charged with such duties could present
against the shafts of calumny which were too frequently
aimed against it. He attributed the failure of the Rail-
way Department of the Board of Trade, under Lord
Dalhousie, notwithstanding the great talents and energy
which the Noble Lord brought to bear upon it, to the
fact that he bad the advice of persons who were perhaps
not exactly in the station or of that established and well
known character which ought to be possessed by those
who advised with a Minister of the Crown. It was of
the highest importance that a department to which such
functions were intrusted should be so composed that
their decisions Should convince Parliament and th.
country, ie not of the wisdom of those decisions, at least
of the
,perfect impartiality and independence of the
grounds upon which they were given. To do this it was
necessary that they should be assisted by eminent legal
'ability, and that men of the station and reputation to.
which he had just adverted should compose the
board. lie could not refer to the name of. Sir Edward
Ryan without expressing his conviction that the House
and the public were largely indebted' to that eminent
and Learned Gentleman for the assistance he had ren-
dered the board. It was a mistake to`suppose, as had
been asserted, that the decisions of the Railway Com-
missioners had not .been attended to by Committees of
that House, and he believed there was only one instance
in which a decision of the Committee had been de-
cidedly contravened. His opinion was that it :would be
a very ill-advised step toiput an end to this Commission,
- and to insist upon transferring the business bapk to the
Board of Trade. At the same time he admitted :he.
was not altogether satisfied with the state of the railWay'
business of the gauntry even under this Commission.—
(Hear, hear.) Constituted as the Comtnission was,_ he'
believed that its duties were well performed, and its
services useful • yet it might be made more useful than
it now was. Other questions and subjects might be
brought before it, and he hoped to see its in-
fluence over railways gradually extended. With respect to
the Tidal Harbours Commission, he agreed that it was
a question worthy oCatterttion whether that commission
might not be abolished, and its duties be discharged by
the Railway Commission, with the assistance of a single
officer from the 'Admiralty. All these subjects, how,
ever, were receiving the attentive consideration of a
Committee, the report from which would be shortly be-
fore the House, when it would become their duty to take
the whole matter into consideration, with a view of
making such ultimate arrangements as would promOte
economy, and conduce to the public advantage. It
would now be preinatUre to abolish the Commission and
insist that the Board of Trade should resume railway
functions, and he trusted the Hon. Gentleman would
leave the .affair in-the hands of the Government.

Mr. GLADSTONE would be brief in his remarks,
although the matter was important and concerned the
character of the House. The ground adopted now by the
Government was different from that they had before'
taken. .Then the complaint was, that the Commission
had been instituted at a great expense; and. that it had
been held out that duties were to be provided for it by
.Act of rarliament, but which duties were never created
at all. The Government had not, however, met the
motion of the Hon. Member for l)orsetshirc with a- direct
negative, but as a question of time, advising the house
to waft for a report, when they would be in a position to
come to a decision. The Railway Commissioners had
reported, and to what effect? Not in favour of impo-
sing these new duties upon thorn. The whole idea upon
which the Railway Commission had been founded had
utterly vanished into thin air; and it was evident no
.notion was entertained of imposing upon the Commis-
sion those duties which Mad been intended to be per
formed when it was constituted, and without which
no one would have dreamed of appointing it at all.
The House was invited to leave the matter in the
hands of the • Government, and a careful consideration
• was promised; but that was not the way the Members .of
Parliament could look their constituents in the face, at a
time when the east expenses of the country and the ne-
cessity of retrenchment were talked about.—(Hear, hear.)
Some pledge should be given of a clear intention to take
up the subject effectually. The Railway Comimissioners
in their report had evidently, for all practical purposes,
abandoned the notion of their acquiring those extensive
duties for the performance of which they had been really
appointed. Upon the resignation of Mr. Strutt, it was
evident that there was no longer an intention on the
part of the Government to commit these duties to the
Commission, for Mr. Strutt himself had said that he
would not hold office without those finictions, and his
abandonment of office marked to the House. that the
Government had no purpose of proposing to Parliament
a measure on a comprehensive basis. How then was

the maintenance' of this expensive Commission to be
justified. when there was no view of giving it prac-
tical effect?—(Hear, bear.) This was a question of
economy; but he did not overlook the importance of
the duties to be discharged by the Commissioners, and
he fully, agreed that such duties must not be intrusted
to inferior perions; but still the Right Hon. Gentleman
bad not done justice to the functionaries who had served
under Lord Dalhousie, and who, like General Pasley
and Colonelllarness, were men of high eminence and
ability, and received high salaries. As regarded the en-
gineer officers,:theft eeret of the charge appeared to be
this—that their pay was doubled in order to increase
their efficiency. As to the increase of railway business,
no doubt, as regarded the duties to be performed by cap-
tains of engineers, and as to the accumulation of a mass
of correspondence, there had beers a great increase, but
as regarded difficult, delicate, and responsible functions,
there had been no increase at all, but, on the contrary, a
decrease, since the 'time when the duties of this board
were discharged by Lord Dalhousie with an establish-
ment costing the country ene-third of the present. He
had read the rem& of the Commissioners and traced ma-
nifest indications of the difficiilties which arose from
having been appointed to an office without their duties
having been defined beforehand. The Right Hon. Member
proceeded to ridicule the trifling nature of the details with
which the Commissioners swelled out their report, in-
stancing particularly a case on the 27th page of a private
'belonging to the' Sappers and Miners having been, it
was alleged, overcharged for his luggage by a railway
company, and in which, after a gigantic effort, it had
been decided, with the aid of the law officers of the
Crown, whether or not twopence per ton per mile should
be charged. He did not think that the weight attach-
ing to the recommendations of the Commission had in-
creased any more than the delicacy and difficulty of
their duties. He bad never heard that Lord Dalhousie
had been assisted by incompetent men. In some few
conspicuous instances the report of that Noble Lord
might not have been attended 'to, but it should be re-
membered that he had had a great number -of reports
to present. The reports certainly did not meet with
very general support, for ,Many members of the Com-
mittee said they did not understand them, and with
respect to the expenses 'of the Railway Board, every one
must concur with him in saying that they ought not to
pay, 12,0002 a-year' for that which might be done
for 4,000/.
Mr. R. V. SMITH rose amidst loud cries of Di-
vide." He said it was not quite decorous for the Hon.
Member for Sunderland to raise a cry of " Divide,"
when he and-the Hon. Members near him were known
to be deeply interested in railways. There was quite a
sufficient number of gentlemen in the immediate vicinity
of that Hon. Membef to form an excellent provisional
committee, He admitted that there was not sufficient
business to occupy the attention of the Railway Commis-
sion, but he contended that tkis was not the time for
introducing such a measure as the Bill of the Hon. Mem-
ber for llbrsetshire. It would not have escaped the
recollection of the House that the Committee on the
miscellaneous estimates had considered the expenses of
the Railway Commission; had agreed to certain iesolu
tions regarding them, and not many days since they
had presented a report to the House on the subject;
still they had not yet before them the evidence either of
Mr. Strutt or Sir F. Smith; and he thought that they
ought not to decide so important a question as the pre-
sent till they were in possession of the information which
that evidence contained.

Lord J.-RUSSELL said that, before the House
divided, he wished to state how far he agreed with the
Honourable Member for Dorsetsbiro, by whom the
present motion 'was made; and how far he agreed
with the Right Honourable Gentleman the Mem-
ber for the University of Oxford. He quite
agreed that the Railway Board had more persons
belonging to' it with high dalaries than was necessary
for the business to be performed; and unless some ar-
rangement could be adopted, by which other duties
might be assigned to them, he thodght that a great
alteration must; take place before the next session of
Parliame.ntan alteration, probably, by which that
board would be 'much 'reduced in numbers. But hedid
not agree-with the Hon. Gentleman opposite in think-
ing that the salaries of those who might be retained
ought'iO hi,' reduced; he did not agree with him that low
salaries would emigre a good' deportment, and he was
quite surprised in hear Such a sentiment maintained. If
the Hon. 'Member did not wish for a useful 'and e cient
supervision, let hini say so; that would be intelligible;
and then lot him propose that the whole motion 'be left
in the hands of the House of Commons. That, at all
events, wbutd be a better plan than to have a depart-
ment upon row salaries. ' The worst possible way would
be to'have.a numerous board with inferior salaries, for
that would 'be offering to the members of the Board a
temptation to leave the public service for other employ-,
merit. Them was 'a case which eame under the notice
of the Gdverntattnt, in which the engineer quitted the.
public service and went into that of a private company.
The case to which he alluded was Mr. Codrington'e.
Then there was Mr. Laing, who put on his barrister's
gown, and found that 'he did better by followipg his
profession than by remaining in the public service.
Such examples as these'eause3 it often to be said that it
was very batfeeonomy-to pay ajudge less than a leading
barrister tould obtain in • his profession, for such a
practice 'Led' to the advancement of inferior lawyers to
thdbench: • If they were to have a railway board at all,'
it wodld.be better to have it at an expense of 3,000/. or
4,000/. 'a: year, and get, the business of the department
perfdime& by men of station, ,who would be not likely to
quit`'p"(ibll for priiate"'Sersice. having thus shortly
stated his 'opinion of the Bill, he should content
himself' with repeating' that it would be better
to haVe 'no 'loaid than numerous department in
paid.
Mr:BANKES, in explanation, said that what he pro-
posed to du was to repeal all the existing Acts, and then
kart, the Noble Lord to bring in whatever Bill he
thought proper.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
Forthe motion
Against it
Majority--- —ll
INTERFERENCE WITH FOREIGN COUNTRIES.
Mr. URQUHART, pursuant to notice, moved " That
in the opinion of this House, interference in the internal
government of other countries is detrimental to the inte-
rests, and derogatory to the honour of this country, as
well as to the interests and honour of the countries in
behalf of which such intervention is assumed to be exer-
cised. That this practice of intervention has led to or
excused the increase of the military and naval establish-
ments,. and thereby of the public expenditure, to the
great oppression of her Majesty's subjects, and par-
ticularly of the class which depends• on daily
labour for daily food." He contended that the Go-
vernment of this country uught to be very cautious hew
they involved us in war, considering that we laboured
under the great disadvantage of possessing but very
insufficient means for carrying on hostilities. It was
also not to be forgotten that at the present moment the
House of Commons was almost overvvhelinned with busi-'
ness, and that business was. now going on increasing
with an accelerated pace. The law and practice of Eng-
land was agairnit any interference with the domestic
affairs of our,neighbours, and, in his opinion, we ought
never to interfere with any questions, either of dynasty
or of constitution.. He wished that an opportunity
might be afforded to the Noble Lord opposite to give the
floue an explanation of the policy which he intended to
purstie,..Whieh he hoped would be not altogether unin-
ffuene4bY irte experience that he must have had of the
evils of luteriention, at the same time that he might, oa
the present occasion, be anticipated by a " count out."
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and, as
forty 'Members were not present, the House stands ad-
journed to to-morrow (this day).
The adjournment took place at a Quarter before Eight
o'clock. ,