The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-16 00:00:00

MR. W. S. O'BRIEN.

Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition, having appended
to it 71),000 signatures, praying for the release of Mr. W. Smith
O'Brien.

BANCMII AND ST. ASAPH.

Mr. BORROUG HES prrsented a petition against the
union of the see, of B‘offor g.nd St. Asrt,h.
TEN HOURS LABOUR BILL.

Mr. T. S. DUNCONIBE presented two petitions., very nu-
meroutly and respecithly signed, in favour of the restriction of
labour to ten hours.
BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.
Mr. PIERCE BUTLER gave notice that cn Thursday
next he should move for the appointment of a Select Com-
mittee to inqnire into the right of the House to en-
force the attendance of its Members on Committees, and
into its authority for inflicting the punishment of lam-
prionment for non-attendance. Further to inquire how
far such practice was sanctioned by the law of the land, and
how far the usage NVZS in accordance therewith.
POOR-LAW.
Mr. P. SCROPE gave notice of his intention on a fu'ure
day to more for leave to bring in a Bill to extend to Ireland
the present pot r-law of England.
POOR. LAW IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Captain PECHF.LL wished to know if the Right Hon.
Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department had dropped
his design of carrying on the Poor-low Improvement Bill?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM }rid no such intention, but the
busine's of the House had rendered it necessary, for the sake
of public convenience, to postp,,ne its consideration for the
present. It was understood that after the Corn-law Bill had
bee❑ read a third time the Factory Bill should he brought
under discussion. He believed this was sta'etl in the House
last night, and that it was in accordance with the general
feeling of the Members then presort ; he hoped, khere for e, that.
the Hon. and Gallant Officer would not press for the reading
of the Bill of which he had spoken. but would accede to the
arrangement which Lad been ent-red into or, this hu.iness.
After a few words from Mr. VER:iON SMITH the sub-
ject dropped.

RAILWAYS DISSOLUTION BILL.
Mr. LABOUCH ERE said there was another Bill which
had been read a second time, and on which it had been ar-
ranged that the discussion on the motion for going into com-
mittee should take place—he meant the Railways Dissolution
Bill. He trusted no time would be los. in allowing the House
the opportunity of expresling its opioi-n on the measure.
Sir R. PEEL said it was important that the sense of the
House should be taken on the Bill at the earliest day, so that
the measure might be proceeded with. He should do all he
could to facilitate that object.
EAST INDIA COMPANY.—ANNUITIES TO LORD
HARDINGE AND LORD GOUGH.
_ _

Mr. HOGG rose to ask leave to introduce two Bills to au-
thorise the East India Company to grant annuities of 5,000/.
and 2,0001. per annum respectively to Lord Hardinge and
Lord Gough, for their recent brilliant* services in the
East Indies. He hoped no astable would be placed in the
way of forwarding those measures.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that, so far from offering any ob-
stacle in the way of their progress, he would do everything in
his power to hasten them forward.
Mr. HUME wished to know when an opportunity wooly be
given of discussing the merits of the Pills for granting Pensions
to Lords Hardinge. and Gough, because it might happen
that those Bills might pass at a late period of the
night, without an opportunity being afforded of discussing
them at all. He wished to have an opportunity of
making some remarks re,pect inn. them, because he had an ob-
ject ion to grant pensions to pers ns whose de cendants were
unable to maintain the dignity of the procession, and b, cause
the time had come when they ought to require her Majesty not
to grant peerages which must be kept up at the expense of the
country. With all due deference to the House, he
must say that he thought this plan of grant ng
peerages for two or three lives, and then leaving
those upon whom the honour had descended destitute,
was a reprehensible practice, and ought at once to he abrogated.
In the case of Lord Hardinge, for instance, the honour con-
ferred upon him would not last longer than the ordinary dura-
tion of two lives, because he was advanced in Yeats. He urged
the same arguments several years ago, in the case 9f Lord
Keane, but he was opposed to the House, and was there-
fore unsuccessful. He repeated that ho considered tee
time had arrived when the Government ought to
consider whether it was politic to grant titles when
there was no property to maintain it, for wherever this was
done they had the Peer and his family quartered upon the
public—(Great laughter)—and there was no getting a
head of him or his progeny for generations.—( Roars of
laughter.) He did not wish to particularise individuals,
but, if they created an aristocracy, it ought not to be main-
tained by the public purse —( Hear, hear.) It was true the
customs of the country precluded them from following an'
avocation by which they could maintain themselves, hut it did
not preclude them. from having families.—(Continued
laughter.) He was willing to di.euss the question during
the present debate, but as the Bill had passed, it would be un-
necessary for him to do so ; but he thought it was really a
question for the house to take up—whether, when future
peerages were conferred on individuals who had not the power of
supporting them, and which would consequently have to be
supported at the expense of the country, it would be politic to
grant them. It was the system he complained of, and not
the individuals. He hoped, however, that the House would
have an opportunity of discussing the Bills in the daylight.
Sir ROBERT PEEL spoke a few words in reply to what
had fallen from the lion. Member for Montrose, but in so low
a tone of voice as to be quite inaudible in the gallery. The
Right Hon. Baronet, however, was uoderstood to ssy that it
was rather hard for the Hon. Member to predict
that the life of Lord Gough was not worth a months'
purchase. It was not the fault of Government that Bills of
this nature had not been brought on ti.l a late hour of the
night.--( Hear, hear.)
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
Mr. CARDWELL moved that the House, at its rising, do
adjourn till Monday next.—Agreed to.
Mr. T. S. DUNCW.IBE, seeing the Honourable Gentle-
man the Secretary for the Treasury, he wished to ask him a
question with reference to the Post. office abuses he had lately
brought under the con=ideration of the House. He had been
given to understand that the speech he made on a recent
,ceasion had leen placed in the hands of Mr. Pea-
cock, the Solicitor to the Post-office, to inquire
into the charges which it contained, notwithstanding it had
been sta'ed that they, were groundless. Ho wished to know,
then, whether his info, mation was correct or not. He under-
stood, also, that some of the letter-carriers were taken before
Mr. Peacock to be examined touching those charges,
but, upon asking for a pledge to be held harmless if
they proved them, it was refused.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
The inquiry was one which ought to be conducted in such a
manner as to give satisfaction to the public. He wished.
therefore, to know whether the Honourable Gentleman would
have any objectiion to produce the evidence which was taken,
' and to inform the House of the result of that inquiry.
Mr. CARDWELL would confine himself to an explanation
of the course which had been pursued under the circumstances
referred to by the Hon. Gentleman. The Postmaster-General,
being desirous to have a full investigation into the whole quea-
ion connected with the stab-:otters, considered it judicious
that the inquiry should be conducted by gentlemen who were
not connected with the Post-office department, and therefore
he appointed the solicitor of the Post-office to con-
duct the investigation,. At first the President of the Inland
department, and the inspector of the letter-carriers were ap-
pointed conjointly with him, but in consequence of one of ;he
ttiitnesses objecting to be examined in the presence of these
two gentlemen, the solicitor afterwards conducted the exami-
nationtlone ; it must be obvious, therefore, to the Hon. Gen-
tleman that he (Mr. Cardwell) could give no further infor-
mation upon the subject until the report of the inquiry was
made.
mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that he would move that a copy
of that report should be laid upon the table.
Mr. CARDWELL would have no objection.
VALUATION OF IRELAND.
Sir DENHAM NORRIS asked the Noble Lord the Secre-
tary for Ireland, if the Government proposed to bring its a Bill
this session relative to the valuation of land in Ireland ?
Lord LINCOLN said that it was proposed to bring in a Bill
on that subject, which would be the same in substance as that
introduced last year but in the present state of public busi-
ness he could not pledge himself at what period he would be
enabled to introduce it.

Sir D. NORREYS wished to know whether the Noble
Lord Was aware that all valuations whien at present took place
in Ireland were

Lord LINCOLN said that he was aware of the fact, and a
Bill would be introduced this session to remedy the evil.
It was then agreed that the House at its rising do adjourn to
Monday next.
CORN BILL—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The adjourned debate upon the Corn Bill was resumed by
Mr. COLQUHOUN. who addressed the House amidst much
confusion. He said that argument upr,n this subject
had been exhausted. He was however fearful that the Bill
would pass notwithstanding. The Noble Lord the Member
for Lynn had asked the Right Hon. Baronet a question with
respect to certain returns from the Customs. That ques-
tion had been answered by the Right Honourable Baronet.
He thought that he might remind the Right H.,n. Baronet
that he had declared, in his opinion, the price of wheat would
not exceed 355. per quarter.
Sir ROBERT PEEL dissented from ibis declaration.

otfhthe
Mr. COLFI UHOUN did not wish to misinterpret the
Right Hon. 13 tronet, but he certainly must remind him,
that he had stated as one of his rea'ons for advocating
the cht,nge in tt.e corn duties that the price of wheat, when ad-
m tted at the lower duties, would not be reduced below 355. a
quarter. He would refer also to the admission made to the
Hon. Member for Leeds, by whom this declaration had been
doubted. The declaration was made in reference to the year
1835, when wheat was not more than from 395. to 40s. a
quarter.
Sir R. PEEL—I was asked by the Noble Lord the Mem-
ber for London what I believed would be the price of wheat
if foreign corn were admitted duty free, and I stated that, with
an unrestricted trade in corn, I did not think, judging from
the experience of 1835, that the price of wheat would fall be.
low 355. a quarter.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. COLQUHOUN—This did then in effect tally with
what he had stated—that the price of wileat under a system of
unrestricted import, would not fall below 355., and it
swoothuaaldtt
now appear that the Right Honourable Baronet hoped
that the price would not be less than 30s, a quarter.
He was persuaded that if this statement of the prix
;es ensue from the repeal of the eorn-laws Ina correct,
a great shock would be given to all the manufac-
turing, commercial, and agricultural interests
country.—( Hear, hear.) It had been by such repre-
sentations about the prices of corn under th s law that
the present state of the country,
ihfardealbieseen created, but they
be taught by obeyki
in
Thheepyesouwghbiteh to
whatle lead tt oo 0
ka
gweenreerafloupnadoetdo.
place in 1835, what had been referred to by the Right Hon.
IBvairisonne,t,thaenthtahiremhainstoorfyti of Vrh 'eh had been given by Mr.
Mr. COBDEN was understood Anti- Corn-law League.
rstond to say, that the Mr. Vin-
son referred to was not the Chairman
he
irman of the League.nexAilorn. CrsOith that LQU ilUeras
giveo o pintn
naeo who hado e
bo°dy,N—Tke
an d who wa-tow osinn theeesuebn--
ject. Mr. Wilson said that the effect of the proceedings of 1835
was to give a fal-e direction to capital, and to increase
manufacturing products in such a ratio as to glut the
market, and to produce the disastrousis3s,ard
the
eate of things that
imme-
diately preceded and followed, were years ofi s
followed. The proceedings
pyeeeaurlsattihoantainmdmfiee:
titious trading, inevitably producing the general stagnation that
took place in 1841. The Right lion. Baronet and theßig ht Hon.
Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had stated
that prices will not fall if this measure is carried, and the
Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary for the Home
Department said there wouln be no great fall in prices.. He
further said he expected that there would be great '

steadiness in it. He (Mr. Colquhoun) was satis-
fied, however, that it he could not convince
the Right lion. Gentlemen of the fallacy of this expectation,
he would be able to satisfy the House that there was no hope
whatever of the rate of prices being stplh as they expected,
Just let them look at the assumption of those who held the
argument that the repeal of the corn-laws would lead to a
regular supply of wheat, and to unvarying prices. They stated
that after the repeal of the corn-laws, trade, in all its breeches.
would be regulated ; that there would be an average supply of
corn, and an average demand for it. Let, them assume that
their in ports of grain amounted to any quantity they pleased.
The average amount was rather more than one million of quar-
ters. Let them assume that they would have only three or
four millions of quarters, for at whatever quantity they put it
it would not affect the argument. Assume that they brought in
four millions of quarters; that he thought the most sanguine
advocate of free-trade would not question. Now the average
production of wheat in this city was sixteen millions of quar-
ters, to which they had to add four millions of quarters, mak-
ing together a regular supply of twenty millions of quarters.
A most eminent statist, Mr. Tooke, stated that the harvest
of 1834 was in excess over the ordinary harvests of this country
to the extent of one-fourth ; and he also stated that that was
the cause of the low prices of 1833. The same thing was
stated with respect to 1838, that they had an harvest
similarly in success. They thus had an increase in these
years of five millions, making the supply twenty-five,
instead of twenty millions. Then during these years,
other corn-growing countries had a similar excess.
Thus they would have more to send to this country at periods
when, owing to the excess, it was not required. Now he would
ask mercantile men and those engaged in trade, whether the
ffect of that would not be to depress prises most enormously
( Hear, hear.) If the same excess occurred in 1854, prices would
be reduced to the lowest degree here and all along the-Baltic.
And what would happen ? The same as happened in 1844
egrieulturlists would restrict the supply in consequence of
low prises, and, as in 1838, the prices would run up enorm-
ously; so that there would be no stability of prices or supply
if the corn-laws were repealed.--( Hear, hear.) They would
have evormou3 oscillations—high priers at one time, and low
prices at another—the one ruinous to the farmer, and the other
to the labourer; ruinous, too, in one instance to the
manufacturers, for as the price of corn rose in
this country the home market of the manufacturer
gradually decreased He perfectly agreed with the Right
Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury, that they ought
to endeavour to secure the wages of the labourer from varia-
tions in amount—but he contended, that after they repealed
the corn 'laws the wages of the labourer would remain still
unsettled. They would be subject to the same fluctuation in
prices, acid liable to the srme vicissitudes of fortune. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman the r for Bath, had re-
marked,with his usual a uteness, that it would be useless to repeal
the c rry- laws for the benefit of the labouring part of the com-
munity, without they paid the same eaten-ion to the improve-
ment of their habits. Unless th y did se, the condition of the
people would still remain the same. The agriculture of this
country had improved more than that of any other country in
the world, with the exception of Belgium. The fact was, they
fed a larger number of people on the square mile than that of
any other country, with the exception he had men-
tioned. In France they had 150 peiseni to the square
mile, but in England there we, e 230. In France -fourteen 4
bushels to the acre wee the minimum of the produce ; in Eng-
lane it was 28 The prices of meat and grain had steadily
fallen, considering the improvements that had been made, and
the extent of the increase in population. If it was con-
sidered necessary to make a change, that c•;atige surely could
be made without the Right Hon. Baronet, the Fret Minister •
of the Crown, attempting to malign that interest with which
he had been so long connected. It was said that, under the
operation of the princip'es of free trade, agriculture would
make a spring, and receive a great stimulus. Would the
House permit him to detain it for a few minutes while he
called their attention to facts, and he had no doubt they would
he able to form a more sober estimate of the consequences.
Since 1815, the time of the war, population had greatly in-
creased. There were 8000,000 of an increase, and there was
not less than 64.000.001 of an increase in the produce. The
colonial trade had doubled in amount since the war, and what
would be the effect of this measure on the et/lonia! trade? Did
the manufacturers expect to keep the colonial trade in its pre-
sent position ? They had at present from seven to fifteen per
cent. pretesting duty in the West Indies and in the North
American c- lonies. Did the Hon. Member for Stockport
expect to obtain that protection after the Bill passed? Already
the msnufact urers were suffering from competition in the Brazils.,
and what w' uld be their, tate when the) lost the manufactures?
The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath had ridiculed his
Noble Friend for stating that the exports to the colonies were
3.0 0,000 per annum, from which this country obtained no
benefit. Why, he would remind that Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman, alit the house of Brucanon, in New York, was esta-
blished for the express purpose of receiving British manufac-
tures, fn obtaining the drawback, and then passing them,
across the borders. it hen the Canadas became an integral
part of the United States, as from the intercourse caused •
by the effects of the measure, they were very likely to becomes
th t Hon. and Learned Gentleman would find that his antici-
pations of the results were not at all likely to be realised. But
was very possible that the matter might be exaggerated by
both sides of the House, by the fears of one side and the hopes
of the other. Yet, however this might be, the political effects af
the measure would not so speedily subside. It had the effect of
breaking up the combination which had so long existed be-
tween the party with whom he acted and their
leaders. He did not wish to make any personal attack
on the Right Honourable Gentleman, but he felt
it right to state that he believed that combination
would never again be renewed. Neither did he think it dee
sirable, for the sake either of public men or the character and
the interests of the country at large. that it should be renewed;
—(Hear, hear.) He had in his own humale capacity followed
the Right Hon. Gentleman with a deep admiration of his
talents, and now, when that combination was about to be
broken, lie viewed him, as he believed the country did, with
sensations of the deepest regret.—( Hear, hear.) Ho must
be permitted to say that the Right Hon. Baronet, with all his
talents and with all the honesty of his motives, had two
blemishes in his pnblic character and opinions which he hoped
he would pardon him (Mr. Coquhoun) referring to, as very
injurious to a public man. His defects were, having no faith
in his own principles, and exhibiting great fear of his own
opinions. He appeared like a mariner at sea svith a bad cargo
that he had borne a long distance, but the safety of which he
10 t all confidence in on the first indication of a storm. At the
Erst approach of an autumn storm he threw overboard
at once the whole caigo of his life.—(l-11are hear.)
How long the opinions which the Right Hon. Baronet had
lately taken up in his mind, it was impossible to say; but he,
defied any man who had watered vigilantly, as the conduct or
pelitical men ought to be watched, the conduct of the Right
Hon. Baronet, to say that there was one principle he now main-
tained which he would not abandon during a period of popular_
excitement,— ( Cheers. ) He did not mean to say that he had
polbical confidence in the Noble Lord oppo-ite ; he had a gret.
admiration for character and talents, but he must pardon him if
he said that his ( Mr. Colquhnun's) Hon. Friends and himself,
would not form a portion of any party he might lead.- ( Hear.
He was very courageous and gallant, beceuse he had cheered
that Noble Lord in stormy times, when his party was in danger,
most vociferou ly, when the faintest hearts would •have
despaired. —( Cheers.) And if he served under the Noble Lcrd,
whose chivalry he admired, he should feel exactly as he remem-
bered he once felt at Calais, storm bound, and when he wished
to return from the continent, being impatient to reach his own
soil. He remembered pressing a weather-beaten captain to go
to sea. who said, •• You are a landsman, and like all landsmen, •
ignorant ; this is a storm in which it would not be safe to leave
the land." Now the Noble Lord went out of harbour at a pe-
riod when he might have been of service to the constitution.
Now the duty of himself and his Hon. Friends would be better
done should they take their stand with the Noble Lord, for it •
would place them in a better position. It would be, perhapa,
a matter of difficulty to bring them-elves to such a course, but
he would rather encounter that difficultly and danger than to
continue in a camp—they hat! heard something of camps lately—
where, when they were about to meet the enemy, their guns,
by the orders of their leaders, were spiked. He felt, for one,
that the sooner they left such a camp the better.—(Hear,
hear.) Better leave it than have their principles lost by acting
with those whom they had been willing to follow, but with
whom they could not now agree. The Hots. Member for
Stockport had turned his guns against that side of the Houset;
he turned the skeleton of the League against them.
An HONOURABLE Memnee —The ghost.
Mr. COLQUHOUN —Well then, the ghost : it had had
more effect, and it was much stronger than the skeleton. The
Hon. Member hai fought his battle with great ability, 3.2d
with so much judgment, as to call forth the
compliment of the Noble Lord. (Hear, hea,r;
The opportunity would soon be given to them to meet the
principles of Hon. Members opposite. He was sure they,
would be met with courage, and he hoped with success.
they were worsted, and he thought it likely they would be,
they would still have to guard some of the great institutions of
the country against the attacks of Hon. Members opposite'
and his Hon. Friends would thus have to fight another eallant'
and he trusted in the end, successful war. He quite ad-
mitted that the present excitement was in favour of Govern"
ment, but he thought it would soon pass away, when the
hopes of Hon. Gentlemen opposite, would be found not to he
realised, and the promises which they bad made to the trier"
chant, the manufacturer, and the labourer, not fulfillen,•
Merchants would not have had that increase of trade which
Hon. Members told them they might expect Manufacturers
would not have had that development for their manufactures
which they had been taught to expect ; while the labourers
would not have experienced that rise in their wages which_
they had been led to expect. When all the hopes, which
Hon. Members had held out to the people, and by which this
in the
counsellors,hr)hour of
measure had been carried, should have btee,fin prtoiiiveeddmo bovt-
sionary, and the delusion blown away, h
of England, with this
peopleof crisisan d
whoand
their difficulty were
protec-
tionist party would appeal to the
their simpleubt question—ohole
and faithlessany system of laws which im-
posedand constant friends.—(Cheers )
tai various uosf occasions,fhe ush
ttuoonithbbliees
censitriluWenOts,OhDis
importation of bullion. The
taxes on thheaodpfohoeldixopnfroertshsteandhte: people was both inexpedient
and unjust. He would call t
irneadryinto a comparative statement
fact that during' the last few years there had been a most ex-
traordinary importation of foreign corn at low duties co-ordi-
nate
the amount of wheat and bullion introduced i
.wGitehnatlemmoasnt theaentraeonrtde
no.
It was evident that the importati in of cornnto the country
Itlow duties "It",
out corresponding advantages in at
alow tariff was productive lot
a drain of bullion. He did not say that the 'lcorn"e
laws would raise the amount of wage
repeal of the 't
sto the labourer, but l would most certainly have the effect greater and
more liberal supply of food. He di of creating a
repeal of the corn-laws would have d not anticipate the
paced, of hindering theprogressive the effect which was antics"eut
of agriculture. On the increase and improverneed
contrary, free trade would be attended
with beneficial effects on the The averageof•
agriculture.
entire system of k
wages in the year 1833 was about 83. a wee •
If wages had been they
proportionate to the price of corn, , should have been 143 a week. What influence then did !an
price of corn exert on the amount of wages ? None whatever,
and therefore any °hot
apprehension of a diminution in the am
of wages was ill-grounded, and had no substantial basis. The
Honourable Gentleman then entered into an elaborate
disquisition on the influence which the price of corn h,s
on the reward of, labour, and the proportion which
the price of coin bore to the amount of wages.
He would assume that the amount of wages which a labourer
and his family received during the year 1835 was 1/. per vc7.,;
or 521. per year. They would consume on the average 0
quarters of wheat during the year, which would cost 10/m
that there would remain a balance of 421. to be expended
house rent, clothes, and other necessaries. In 1839, however
of fire
the amount of wages fell to 391. a-year, and the price
quarters of wheat was 17/. 10.5., so that the labourer's lama;
instead of having a balance of 421. to spend in house rent
other necessaries, had a balance of S 2/. 10s. to provide
them-
selves with everything. The corn-laws had the tendency to
to
bring about this state of things, and eventually would
ue
in reducing the labourer to starvation and a state of pauperism'
He entreated the landlords in that House to consider whether
that distress and suffering, whose existence they so muersm,
la-
mented, was not occasioned by their previous legislation, and
by those laws which had hitherto so largely tended to augment
their rent-rolls? He, as a landlord, was prepared to
a 'nit on,
'
every sacrifice in favour of a measure which, in his estrin
was calculated to do so much good for the people ; and he, for
one, therefore intended to support the third reading of this
Eill.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. P. BENNET considered that if tire House passed
this law, they would be committing an act of the grossesttne
justice to the agricultural interest.—(Hear, hear.) He had
-canvassed a good many agriculturists upon this question/