The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-20 00:00:00

FI.()GGING IN THE ARMY.

Mr. T. D'EYN COURT pre,ented a petit,on from Peck-
ham, in Surrey, signed by 1,00 of the most respectable in-
habitan's of that locality, against military dogging.
Capt. PE,...;H ELL presented a petition from Philip Herring,
who was a prisoner in the Queen's Bench prison since 1841,
against the keeper of that prison, for harsh treatment.
Mr. HAWES presented a petition from the Manchester
College of Surgeons in favour of the Medical Regulation Bill.
. Mr. WAKLEY presented several petitions to the same
effect. The Hon. Member also presented several petitions
from Essex, Kendal and other places, numerou4y signed, against
what the petitioners designated the " sanguinary " practice of
flogging. Also a petition from the pawnbrokers of London
(at the request of Mr. Masterman) in favour of the Pawn.
brokers' Bill.
NEW ZEALAND LOAN ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed.
CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL.
_ .

The Heuse went into Committee on this Bill, which was
agreed to, and ordered to L.• reported.
CUSTOMS' DUTIES (No. 2) BILL.

On the motion that this Bill be read a th'ird time,
Mr. HUAI E hoped that during the recess Government would
institute an inquiry into the duties performed by Custom-house
officers, and he proposed next session to recommend some re-
duction in the expense of that establishment. He tru.ted, too,
that in luture the appointment of Custom-house officers would
-not be under political influence, but be dependent upon the
merits of appoiWees for the situation they proposed to fill.
The Bill was thee read a third time and passed.
NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.

This Bill was also read a third time and passed.
SMALL DEBTS COURTS' (SALARIES OF

OFFICERS) BILL.
The report on this Bill was brought up by Mr. GREENE
and agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be engrossed.
SMALL DEBTS BILL.

On the question being put for going into Committee on this
Bill,
Lord G. BEN TINCK said this Bill was of too much ira
portance for them to go into Committee upon it without hearing
some further statement from the promoters. He was aware
that this was a measure which originated with the late Govern-
ment, and her Majesty's pi esent Ministers had obtained it by in-
heritance. The measure bestowed more patronage upon the Go-
vernment than any other measure that haibeen brought in for
some time past. He thought at this period of the session,
when there were so few Members left in the House, they
were entitled to have it delayed till a complete expla-
nation was given of how the patronage was to
be bestowed, and of the whole extent of expense
that would be brought upon the country by this measure.—
( Hear, hear.) There was a power in the second clause of the
Bill to divide every county into so many districts that might
seem fit to her Majesty's Ministers in Council assembled. Now
they ought to know the number of districts into which such
county in England was to be divided. As the Bill stood at
present, it appeared that each district was to have its separate
judge, and each judge was to have a salary of 1,200/. a year, their
appointment to be in the patronage of the Lord Chancellor of
England. Each court was to have a clerk, with a salary of
6001. a year ; and each court was also to have a treasurer,
but no amount of salary was devised for this last office. It
was left to the discretion of the Commissioners of her Majesty's
Treasury to decide how many treasurers there should be, and
what amount of salary they should receive.—( Hear, hear.) It
was commonly supposed that the number of districts would, in
all probability, be not less than a hundred. He had learned,
since he had entered the House, from the Honour•
able and Learned Gentleman the Solicitor= General,
that he estimated that the number would not exceed

sixty-five. Well, he would take the numberisf courtsafaiXty-five.
There would be 65 judges at a salary of .I,2ool.,Avhich would
amount to a sum of no less than 7§,6001• f:SiitYsfive clerks,
with a salary of 600/4; would amount tb 39,000/., am'
these two sums together would amount. to 117,0001.,
as the patronage to be disposed , of by the Minister
of the Crown.—(Hear, hear.) The-salaries to be given to the
treasurers were to be left to the discretion of the Lords Com-
missioners of the Treasury. Here, then, there was no
limit to the salary of the treasurers ; and, therefore,
he thought they ought to hear what was the limit to
be put upon the salaries of these treasurers, or the
number there was to be of them.—( Hear, hear.) There were,
however, other considerations connected with this measure which
rendered explanation necessary. These judges were, for in-
stance, to be paid by fees, while one provision of the Bill pro
vuled that the judges of these Courts were to perform many
duties belonging to the High Court of Chancery. They would
have the power of acting as Masters in Chancery and Masters
of the superior courts of law, and for their services they were
to be paid fees in addition to their salaries. These
fees would be paid in diminution of the fee,
that were now paid in the Court of Charriery.
N..tv, the expenses of the Court of Chancery he thought, in
round numbers, amounted from 134.000/. to 135,000/. Thi-
PURI was nr.ade up to the Consolidated Fund by the fees
paid into the Court which used formerly to be paid to
its officers ; but if these fees were to be diminished
in the manner he had just mentioned it was right
they should know it was proposed to make up the
deficiency to the Consolidated Fund.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") Then, again, there was to be compensation given to
all officers of the new courts now subsisting. There were at
this moment 450 courts of different descriptions, which, for
anything they knew to the contrary, might be superseded by
the new courts to be established by this Bill.—( Hear.) Now
if these 450 courts were to be abolished, all the officers who
did not choose, or had not the option given to them, of taking
offices in the new courts, would be entitled to compensation.
at the discretion of her Majesty's Lords of the Treasury.—
( Hear, hear.) Now he thought they ought to hear from
ministers what would be the amount of all this compensation,
in order that they might have some sort of notion
what the expense would be of carrying this Bill into
effect.—( Hear, hear.) He had no charge to make
against Ministers, who had come by this Bill: and all its
advantages in the course of inheritance. Their was, to be
sure, this difference made in the Bill since it had
come into their hands, that the patronage was to
be given to the Lord Chancellor, and not to the
First Lord of the Treasury.—( Hear, hear.) Much might
be said in favour of this change, but at the same time it was
matter for grave consideration whether or not they should put
into the hands of any Government additional patronage to the
extent of upwards of 117,0001. There were many
matters of detail in the Bill which he objected to,
but he should not trouble the House upon them till
they got into Committee on the Bill. He objected,
for instance, to the despotic power which the Bill gave
to the judges, but he should leave all this for
comment in Committee, and, in conclusion, he could only
say that he thought this measure was of too much import-
ance—gave too much patronage to the Government—to be
disposed of when the great majority of Members were not
present.—( Hear. )
Sir GEORGE GREY said the Noble Lord had told
them this Bill was a legacy left to the pre-
sent Ministry by the late Government, but so many altera-
tions had since been made in it that it might be said to be a
new Bill.—( Hear, hear.) The Bill in its new shape had gone
before the country, and he believed it was generally approved
of. Indeed no remonstrance had been made against its
principles, and the objections to some of its de-
rails could easily be got rid of in Committee.—(Hear, hear. )
The amount is: fees in the courts to be established by this Bill
would depend upon the amount of business. It would not be
necessary to divide every county in England. Li fact, in some
parts, two or three counties might form the district of one coal t.
whereas, such den.ely populated counties as Lancashire and
Middlesex would have to be divided for -the purposes of this
Act. In case the amount of bir.iness should turn out

to be very large, the Home Secretary would have
the power of limiting the salary of the judge to
1,9.00/ , in some cases the salary might be much less.
Then as to the patronage to be conferred by the Bill, he thought
that the best hands in which it could be placed were those of
the Government and the lieutenants 'of the different
counties. ( Hear, hear.) As the Noble Lord had

himself said, it would be much better to postpone
any further discussion of the merits of this Bill till it was ii

Committee ; and when it reached that stage he (Sir George
Grey) would be prepared to explain its objects more fully. The
judges of the present local courts for the recovery of small
debts would stand a better chance of being appointed judges
of the courts to be established by this Act than any other new
candidate.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to compensation, the
same rules would be acted upon as had been hitherto adopted
by the Treasury in similar cares.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. MANNERS SUTTON said, that although the late
Government had introduced a measure similar to this, there had
' been several changes since that period, which placed great
difficulties in the way of their carrying out this Bill.
He thought that there was great danger in placing such a vast
amount of patronage as this Bill would create in the
hands of the Government. The Bill of the late Govern-
ment had in it a clause which would prevent any
abuse of patronage, and he did not think that the Government
had acted rightly in excluding that clause from the Bill.
Although he much preferred the Bill of the late Government,
he did not intend to impede this Bill by any opposition on his
part.
maTnhwe
hAoThTadoßjuNstEsYat- ATTORNEY-GENERAL said h
was mistaken
mistatkea h
nt tinesHupopn. G
supposing
gentthle-
at
the Bill of the late Government would have placed the patron-
age which it would have created in the hands of the lord-
li,.utenants of the counties. It professed to do so, but did not
i,. fact. The patronage would really have been in the hands of
the Government by their Bill, and be ('he Attorney-General)
thought that the present Government were entitled to credit for
having come forward, and plainly said that they did intend to
seek for the patronage which this Bill would create.—( Hear. )
With respect to compensation to the judges of the present
courts, he contended they were not entitled to compensation,
because they had no vested rights in the office.—( Hear, hear.)
But ample compensation would, notwithstanding, be given to
evtry one whom the Bill might injure, and that compensation
would be paid out of the very large funds to be accrued under
the operations of this Bill.—(Hear, hear. )
Mr. S. WORTLEY contended that the Bill, as drawn up
by the late Government, was preferable to it in its present
altered state.
ROMILLY said that before the Bill went into Com-
mittee he wished to make a few observations upon it. In the
first place, he did not consider it a complete measure, but he
considered it as a first step in the right direction. It enabled
the poor of this country to have justice brought home to their
own doors at a cheap rate. It appeared to him to be of great
importance to establish throughout the country judges who
would take on themselves the functions to be given to them
under this bill. He thought that the expensct of the adminis_
tra•ion of justice should be made as light as possible, and that
that expense should be borne by the country.
Mr. H. BERKELEY said that this Bill was most anxiously
looked forward to by the country, and he hoped that the
Government would prosecute it with all possib:e dispatch.
Mr. NE W OEGATE agreed with the Hon. Member for
Bristol, that this Bill was most anxiously expected by the
country, but he should not be so willing to support it if it were
the commencement of a system so extensive as had been
alluded to. He very much don' ted the probability of the ap-
plication of the principle on a large scale to the constitution,
and he rh- refore thou.. ht that considerable caution should be
exercised in carrying it into effect.
Mr. HENLEY thought the he amount of patronage likely
to be given to the Crown under this Ant wi old give
..pp.,rrunities for corruption to a very dangerous extent. The
Government also could give very li tle information in reply to
questions on the sebject ; and he therefore thought that the
'louse ought have .ome further information before giving Its
assent to such a m asure.
Tbe House then .esoived itself into Committee on he Bill.
Clau'es from 1 to 8 were agreed to without discui;sion.
On clause 9 being proposed;
WAKLEY objected to the claim Which restricted