The Sun.
London, England, 1870-05-25 00:00:00

THE ESTABLISHED CHURCH IN WALES.

Mr. WATKIN WILLIAMS called attention to the position

and state of the Established Church in the dominion and

principality of Wales, and moved the following resolu-
tions :—" That, in the opinion of this House, it is right

that the Establishment of the Church and its Union
with the State should cease to exist in the said

dominion and principality. That it is just and expedient'
that the public endowments enjoyed by the Church Esta-
blishment should, after making provision for all vested
interests, be applied to the support of a national and un-

denominational system of education for the said dominion and
principality of Wales." He said that the Church in the prin-
cipality was comprised in, although it was not absolutely
co-extensive with, four dioceses, which extended over an
area of 4,734,000 acres. The population of Wales, accord-
ing to the census of 1861, comprised within the dioceses
was 1,111,780, and according to the best estimate he could
form the population now was 1,220,000 in the Principality.

The total revenue of the Church was, abcording to the
best estimate he could make, £350,000 per annum. It
had four bishops, four deans, 13 canons residentiary,
10 archdeacons, and numerous minor dignitaries,
with a parochial clergy amounting, in round
numbers, to 1,000, although he found that
they were put down at 733. The Church established
in the Principality of Wales was an ancient and venerable
institution. It was not like the Church in Ireland, an
alien Church, forced upon the people by the conqueror
and oppressor. It was not, and he thought he was right
in saying so, regarded by the people with feelings of hos-
tility. Indeed he might say that in many
respects it was regarded with affection and
veneration. If, therefore, he succeeded in shewing
that the Established Church in Wales had not succeeded
in gaining the affections and confidence of the people ; if
it were not the trusted and loved teacher of religion, the
question naturally arose what was the cause of it. It
could not be from want of opportunity, nor from the want
of the most favourable opportunity. It was not because
it had been regarded by the people with hostility, as the
Established Church in Ireland had been. The question
was of course a most serious one. The answer to the
question why the Church in Wales had not succeeded in
gaining the confidence of the people would give them the
solution to the problem, which he intended laying before
the House, and according to the answer would depend
whether the remedy for the existing state of things, was
a separation of the Church from the State, and a removal
of its endowments to other purposes or a re-modelling of
the Church, and an endeavour to constitute it upon a
different and more practical basis. After the most care-
ful and anxious study of the subject, he had come to the
conclusion that the true reason why the Established Church
in the Principality of Wales had failed was the same that
applied throughout Europe, that the people had come to
think that the establishment of religion by the State was
unscriptural and injurious to the cause of true religion. The
hon. gentleman then dealt with the subject historically,
remarking that up to the middle of the eighteenth century
namely 1745, no great progress had been made in the cir-
culation of the Scriptures in the Welsh language. As a
fact, every effort had been made by the English to Angli-
cise the Welsh, and although he had been sneered at and
ridiculed for saying so, he would repeat his statement that
it was the most gross error if they wished to anglicise the
people of the Principality by making them understand
English to endeavour to exterminate the Welsh language.
He said that a revolution in thought was taking place
throughout the Continent of Europe and the whole
of the civilised world, in comparison with which the Re-
formation, and the revolution of thought that took place
upon the introduction of the printing press, was abso-
lutely as nothing. The railway system and the inter-
communion of tnought through the medium of the press,
was annihilating old notions, and everybody was destroy-
ing each other's preconceived ideas and prejudices. (Cheers
and laughter.) It had been said that if they disestab-
lished the Church in Wales, they might as well disestab-
lish the Church in Cornwall or Yorkshire. All he could
say was that Cornwall and Yorkshire should look after
themselves—(hear, hear.)—He had been told that it was
premature to bring the subject forward, but he did not
think, if it were put, that an end should be put to the
state of things, that st was too soon. At the same time
he did not pretend to say his countrymen were impatient
as to the result. All he could say was that they felt that
the time had come when the House would listen and pay
attention to the question. His object would be obtained
by what he'had already said and done. He believed that
if the measure he suggested were carried out it would con-
duce to religion and morality in the principality. When
the whole facts were ascertained he believed the House
with its spirit of moderation would do the Principality the

not practically possible to separate the case of Wales
from the case of England. The object of the hon. gentle-
man was obvious, and he might say that they were not
prepared. to enter upon a crusade against the English
Church Establishment. Government did not think it
was their duty in the first place to endeavour to determine
that question by any abstract resolution for national dis-
establishment. If there were those who considered that
national establishments were opposed under all circum-
stances to the principles of the Christian religion they did
not belong to that number.
Mr. 0. MORGAN read a number of statistics to show
the great preponderance of dissent in Wales. He sup-
ported the motion on the ground that as matters now
stood in that party of the country, the Church establish-
ment was kept up for the rich minority at the expense
of the poor majority. He, however, felt that the
meeting of the question by an abstract resolution was not
the mode that ought to have been pursued, because they
did nothing if carried, and scarcely ever resulted in any

practical good.
Mr. SCOURFIELD 'objected to the resolutions, and ridi-
culed the idea of devoting the funds of the Church of
Wales to general and unsectarian education.
The House divided, when there appeared—Ayes 45,
noes 209.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS (1866-1869)

REPEAL.

Mr. WILLIAM FOWLER, at twenty minutes past seven,
was about to move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal
the Contagious Diseases Acts, when
Mr. CRAWFURD called the attention of the Speaker to
the presence of strangers.
The result was that the occupiers of the strangers' gal-
lery, the ladies, and the reporters had to withdraw. The
discussion was conducted with closed doors until a quarter
past eleven, when the debate was adjourned.
HORSE RACING.

Mr. T. HUGHES moved for leave to bring in a bill to
amend the laws relating to horse racing. In speaking of
the evils of horse racing he alluded to the melancholy
results of turf betting, pointing to the cases of bank-
ruptcy which had occurred merely from speculation on
horses. He said, too, that he had witnessed the rise of
many illiterate meu to fortune simply through good luck
in regard to horse racing. He called the attention of the
House to the fact that he had received many anonymous
letters, abusing him for the notice,which he had given,
and remarked that turf betting had degenerated into a
trade. The state of things had become so bad
that it was high time something should be done
unless the matter was to become hopeless. It
appeared to him that it was impossible any longer to rely
upon the Jockey Club, although he quite admitted that
they still believed that they had the power to set all
things right. The bill, which he asked leave to read a
first time, in the first place proposed to abolish
two year old racing, and in the second place
to return to the state of the law as it stood
before the year 1833. He also proposed
to introduce into the bill a clause providing
that any person who took a deposit of money for the pur-
pose of a bet on the understanding or contract that some-
thing was to be returned on a certain event turning out
one way or another, should be amenable to the penal-
ties of the Betting Act; that was to say he should be fined
the sum of £3O, a third going to the poor of the parish
where the act was committed, and two-thirds to the per-
son who prosecuted the offender.
Sir H. Hot. RE seconded the motion. He spoke against

the immorality and evils arising from betting.
In the course of the discussion Viscount ROYSTON as-
serted that the House had no right to legislate on such
a subject: His opinion was that the bill would do no
good. - He argued that they could not put a stop to
betting, because it was a contract, a matter of honourable
feeling, which the law could not control. The members of
the Jockey Club, he said, were wiling to do all they could
to put a stop to what was called the abuse of the turf.
The House had never yet interfered with questions of pub-
lic sport.
Mr. BERNAL OSBORNE thought that the House was
_ _

totally incompetent to deal with the subject of two-year-
old racing. It would be a work of supererogation to bring in
a bill. It would be printed at the expense of the public,
and they would hear no more about it. He thought they
might leave the matter to the Jockey Club to legislate
upon. He would like to know what the Government in-
tended to do.

Mr. BRUCE thought there was great good sense in what
the last speaker had said with reference to two-year-olds.
That matter, he thought, might be left to the Jockey
Club. With respect to bettilig he should be glad, on the
part of the Government, to put down betting trans-
actions. _ _ _

--______
Mr. HUGHES said that if the Home Secretary had in
the bill he was going to introduceprovidedfor the subjects
which he embraced in his bill he should not have
pressed it.
At a quarter to one the house divided on the motion,
with the following result :—Ayes, 132 ; noes, 44.
KENSINGTON-ROAD IMPROVEMENT BILL.

justice they required.
Mr.GLADsToNE then addressedthe House. He remarked
that his hon. friend had entered into an historical discus-
sion of great historical interest, and he was bound to say
that having been led to give some attention to that aspect
of the subject, he was not able to read the history of
Wales precisely in the same sense. He was, however,
disposed to attach greater consequences to that unwise and
anti-national policy which was pursued for a great
length of time by this country, and of which the State
church appointments were unfortunately made the
medium, than the consequences to what his hon. friend
attached to it. He was not surprised that his hon.
friend was struck by the quantity of the facts which
attached to the condition of the church in Wales. There
was to a certain extent a resemblance between the
case of the church in Wales and the case of the
Church in Ireland ; but that resemblance should
not be exaggerated, if they considered and en-
deavoured to compare them with respect to numbers. His
hon. friend said that he thought the Churchmen of Wales
might be reckoned at about one-sixth part of the popu-
lation. He believed that the Churchmen themselves
were accustomed to claim that they were about one-fourth
of the population, but whichever of these figures might
be nearer the truth, there was no doubt that it was
a disproportion very remarkable in the case of
a church purporting to be the church of the nation. It
was not indeed at all in correspondence with the dispro-
portion which prevailed in Ireland, because there one-
ninth or one-tenth of the people were members of the
Established Church. There was another point in which
the Welsh Church corresponded with that of the Irish
Church, and it was this, that so large a pro-
portion of her members belonged to the upper
classes which were not able to provide them-
selves with the ministers of religion, and therefore
in whose special and peculiar interest it was most difficult
to make any effectual appeal for public resources and
support. But with regard to other points the
case of the Welsh was widely different from the Irish
Church. In the first place it was quite impossible to
compare the breadth of the severance between
the Established Church in Wales and noncon-
formity, and that between the Irish establishment and the
Roman Catholics of that country. He did not mean
simply upon theological grounds, but he meant also upon
the grounds of sympathy or hostility of sentiment. The
whole case was entirely different. There was a strong
and sharp antagonism between the Established Church
and the Roman Catholic Church throughout Ireland,
and the ecclesiastical antagonism was complicated
and embittered by the mixture of political ques-
tions even graver than the ecclesiastical contro-
versy of the country, so that the effect as a whole
was this, that the several portions of the population were
placed almost in an attitude of standing social hostility.
Whatever view might be taken of the anomalous
position of the Church in Wales, his hon. friend
would be the first to admit that it would be
the most gross exaggeration to ' profess that any-
thing like a resemblance of the general position exist-
ing as between the Welsh and the Irish in the attitude of
members of the Church on one hand and the members of
non-conforming bodies on the other. Again, the reli-
gious differences in Ireland were based in the ancient his-
tory of the country, whilst the religious difference in
Wales was entirely modern. All these things shewed
that if from any cause the discussion of the question
of the Irish Church had led to this early discussion of
the case of the Church in Wales, still it would be a most
precipitate and erroneous conclusion to assume that there
was a substantial identity between them, even if they
confined their view strictly to what was within the limits
of Ireland in the one case, and within the limits
of Wales in the other. With regard to there
being no warrant for the existence of national establish.
ments of religion, he thought his friend had wholly failed
to prove that it was so, and he thought the proof of it was
this, that although it was quite true that Welsh Noncon-
formity was comparatively recent, yet it had taken its
root in the country, and bad become the popular'
religion of the country more than half a century
ago ; and at that time his noble friend would
have found it most difficult, if not absolutely impossible,
to find even the faintest trace of a controversy with regard
to the establishment of a religion. The growth of Welsh
dissent was, in his opinion, owing to the cruel anti-
national policy which was pursued even for a
longer time than the hon. gentleman had stated
in regard to ecclesiastical appointments in that
country. Mr. Gladstone went on to say that it was

Mr. AYRTON nominated the following select committee
on the Kensington-road Improvement Bill :—Mr. Charles
Howard, Sir Rainald Knightley, Mr. Thomas Potter,
Sir Frederick Heygate, and Mr. Ayrton.
Sir H. HOARE moved that the order for the appoint-
ment of the committee be discharged, and remarked that
the bill contained a novel principle.
Mr. AYRTON said the gentlemen whom he had nomi-
nated had no interest lB the locality, and would
form a perfectly impartial tribunal.
Mr. LOCKE complained of the contemplated removal of
the forty-eight trees, and urged the First Commissioner
of Works to ask an adequate sum if they gave up a por-
tion of Hyde Park in the same way, as the Metropolitan
Board of Works had to pay 230,000 for building the em-
bankment on a portion of the foreshore which they had
reclaimed.
Mr. CUBITT complained that the Governmont had not
laid their plans fully before the House.
Mr. BRUCE, on the part of the Government, undertook
to give the House the fullest information as to the plans.
The names of the gentlemen chosen by Mr. Ayrton wer
a sufficient guarantee that the inquiry would be an impar-
tial one,
Mr. SAMUDA said the ground which WPS to b 0 given for
£2,000 was worth £lOO,OOO. He objected to the composi-
tion of the committee.
On a division the order was discharged.
LIFE AT SEA BILL.
_ _

Mr. Pumsom.,att;enty-five minutes to two, moved the
second reading of this bill. The House was very thin and
the hon. member was very impatiently heard. He argued
that there was wholesale constructive murder going on
at our ports, and he was going on to point out the immense
importance of the subject, when he was warned by the
attitude of the House that he could not hope for an
attentive hearing. The hon. member stated that he
would postpone the second reading until next Tuesday.

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAT MORNING, MAY 25;

Good Wine
Not Out
Gladice

near Denham, said :—OnlSunday morning last, having
lost the key of one of my doors, I went search of it, and
when near the Plough Inn I saw a man zoming from the
direction of the deceased's house. It was then about
seven o'clock. He had a greenish, middle sized bag in his
hand, and it appeared to be about half full. I overtook
him when I reached the main road. He asked
me if I was hurrying to meet the train. I walked with
him for about three-quarters of a mile. He at length said,
" I was nearly running over a man and his wife last night.
she had a baby in her arms, and a boy at her feet. The
husband threatened to throw her in the cut, and the boy
as well." I asked her why sho did not go home, and she
said she was afraid of hes husband. I said I would go a
long way to assist a woman, and I told the husband that
if he did not go quietly with his wife he would go with me.
The husband asked me who I was, and I said, " A man ;"
and I struck the man that was speaking to his wife. He
also added that he had spent nearly the whole night with
them, and it had taken him a long distance out of his way
to save the wife. On Saturday night at about eight oclock
I saw the deceased, Emanuel Marshall, returning home
with his wife in a cart. He had a white smockfrock on,
but there were no children. The man I mot had dark clothes
on, and on leaving me he asked me where I lived, saying
he would return the key if he found it. " Why, I live
near your house," having mistaken him for Mr. Marshall.
He told me, however, that he was a stranger ; and I said,
" Then I saw you come out of Marshall's house just now."
He said, '` You did. That man, his wife, his mother, and
his children are all gone for a holiday this morning." I
said, " I suppose they started by the six o'clock train ?"
and he replied, " Yes, at about half-past five." While I
was talking two men passed ; one was Thomas, the son of
Mr. Arnold, but I did not know the other.
Job Sparks, residing at Foundry-terrace, Uxbridge, said
he was the brother of Charlotte Marshall. Emanuel
Marshall had an old-fashioned watch and a gold chain of
his father's. He had been to Mr. Butcher, pawnbroker
at Uxbridge, and saw a guard which he believed to have
belonged to Mary Aim Marshall. The shoes which
Emanuel was supposed to have worn on Saturday were not
to be found.

Mary Ann Sparks of Waterloo-road, Uxbridge Moor,
stated that Charlotte Marshall was her sister. She last
saw her on Friday night, when she came to her
house, accompanied by her sister-in-law, Mary Ann Mar-
shall, who was about to be married. It had been reported
that Marshall had two brothers away in Australia, and
that one of them had recently returned, but she was not
aware there was any foundation for the statement. She
was not aware that any unpleasantry had taken place be-
tween any members of the family. Emanuel had been
deficient of money, and he complained that he was unable
to obtain what was owed him.

At this juncture, the inquest was adjourned till Friday
iext-

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.

BATH MEETING-YESTERDAY
LANSD OWN STAKES.

Chivalry .
Playmate
Vulcan

Five ran.
EIGHTEENTH_ BIENNIAL.

Macgregor
Rec‘‘rder 2
Gamos

Four ran. Won by twelve lengths.
BEAUFORT CUP.

Sabinus
Free Trade

KELSTON CLAIMING FLA"' E.
Splitvote f
Holienlinden
Edna

Nine ran.
BADMINTON STAKES.

Nightingall
Daylight
Lord Berkeley
Ten ran.
MEMBERS' PLATE.

Five ran.
NINETEENTH BIENNIAL.

Perth...
Digby Grand
Steppe
„. .

Eight ran.
LATEST BETTING ON THE COURSE.
DERBY.
1200 to 1000 on Macgregor (taken)
10 to 1 agst Camel (taken and offer° i)
, 11 to 1 agst Sunshine (offered)

LATEST BETTING AT BATH.
TUESDAY Night.

THE DERBY.
to 50 on Macgregor (offered—take 60 to 50)
9to 1 aga Camel (offered-1000 to 100 taken and
wanted)
1000 to 15 agst Bonny Swell (offered)
Very little doing.

SCRATOBINGS.

Soruersetahire Strikes—Fancy Boy and Birdseeker.
Weston S akes —Lady Rachel, Balveme, Laetitia,
. .

. .
f, Knightley, Herminie..
Bath Handicap -Boswor3i, Antias, Flash, Bonnie Katie,
La Rose, Dentelle, Cauldron, Chilworth' Whimsical, West
Stratton, Albuera, and Sulphur. Weights raised 21b.

CI BETTING.—YESTERDAY.
Even Macgregor (taken and offered)
9to 1 ast Camel (offered)
100 to 6lagst Bridgwater (offered taken 20 to 1)
20 to 1 agst Prince of Wales (take 25 to 1)
20 to 1 agst Kingcraft (offered)
33 to 1 agst King o ,Scots (taken)
50 to 1 agst Reooider (taken and offered)
10 to 1 agst Recorder, with a win to-day (taken)

PLACE BETTING.
6to 1 agst Prince of 'Wales (taken) 1.:

OAKS.
7 to 2 agst Sunshine (offered—take 4to 1)
7to 1 agst Pate (offered—take Bto 1)

GRAND PRIZE OF PARIS.
sto 2 agst Sornette (offered—take 3to 1)
sto 1 agst Recorder (offered)
10_to 1 agst Prince of Wales (taken)
100 to 7 agst Coutts (wanted)

MARKETS-TUESDAY.

LONDON PRODUCE MARKET, TUESDAY.-For raw sugar
there has been very little inquiry, and prices have ruled easier.
Brown to good middling yellow Barbadoes, 255. 6d. to 31s. ;
Jamaica, 265. 6d. to 295. ; Middling and good yellow Mauritius,
325. to 345. 6d. Coffee has been steady. Low middling to good
middling plantation Ceylon, 645. to 725. per cwt. Fine cocoa
has been firm, but other qualities have been easier. Trinidad,
735. to 118 s.; Grenada, 50s. to 61s.
LONDON TRADE REPORT, TUESDAY.-Tallow has been
dull. Spot, 445. 6d. ; June, 445. 3d. to 445. 6d. ; last three months,
455. 6d. per cwt.
LONDON METAL MARKET, TIIESDAY.-Iron has sold
slowly. Tin has been held with more firmness. Straits tin, £132.
Copper firm. Chili bars, £67 ss. to £67 15s.
LONDON OIL MARKET, TUESDAY.-Linseed oil has been
quiet, at 31s. 9d. to 325. spot. Rape firm. English brown, spot,
435. 6d.
LONDON WOOL MARKET, TUESDAY. -Although the business
doing has not been extensive, the tone of the market for
colonial wool has continued healthy, and the quotations have
been well maintained. English wool also has been steady in
value. with a fair demand.

BOROUGH AND SPITALFIE LDS POTATO MARKET,
TUESDAY.-These markets have been only moderately supplied
with potatoes. The trade has been quiet, at about late rates:-
English shaws, 120 s. to 140 s. ; regents, 110 s. to 130 s. ; Scotch
regents, 100 s. to 130 s. ; and rocks, 90s. to 110 s. per ton.
METROPOLITAN HAY AND STRAW MARKET, TUESDAY.
-There was only a limited supply on sale to-day. The trade ruled
firm, and prices were fully maintained. Prime meadow hay,
80s. to 90s. ; inferior ditto, 655. to 755. ; prime clover, 120 s. to
130 s. ; inferior ditto, 85s. to 100 s. ; prime second cut clover,
105 s. to 115 s. ; inferior ditto, 80s. to 90s. ; and straw, 20s. to 28s.
per load.
LIVERPOOL COTTON MARKET, TUESDAY.-The market
has been firm. Sales, 10,000 bales ; import, 10,500 bales.
LIVERPOOL CORN MARKET, TUESDAY.--A large business
has been done in wheat at the late reduction. Flour has been
firmer, but without change in values. Barley and oats dearer.
Beans, ls. 6d. higher. Indian corn dull and drooping.
MANCHESTER COTTON MARKET, TUESDAY.-The business
doing has been very moderate. Buyers have been unwilling
operators, and although no actual decline has taken place, the
tendency of prices has been in favour of buyers.
SALFORD CATTLE MARKET, TUESDAY.-At this market
to-day the supply both of cattle and sheep was larger than last
week, but the demand for cattle had somewhat slackened. The
best quality in both elasses of stock maintained last week's
prices, but inferior animals suffered a slight reduction. The
sheep pens were cleared out, but a number of beasts remained
unsold. Best beasts, Bd. per lb.; second, 6W. to 70 per lb.;
third, 51d. to 61d. per lb.; sheep, 7d. to 81d. per lb.; foreign
sheep, 61d. to 71d. per lb.; calves, sd. to 6d. per lb.
LEEDS WOOLLEN CLOTH TRADE, TUESDAY.-A slight im-
provement in trade has been presented to-day. More is being
done in goods for the autumn and winter trades ; but to-day's
markets in the cloth halls have not shewn much anima-
tion-the aggregate quantity of cloth which left the hall
is very little more than last Tuesday. The improvement
is chiefly in trade at warehouses, and in the giving
out of orders by shipping houses. A little is doing
on Canadian account both in ordinary plain goods and heavy
cloths ; but it cannot be said that buyers operate freely. It is
doubtful whether the season's sales will be of an average
character. Indeed, many Canadian buyers who formerly made
their purchases or gave their orders for heavy goods in Leeds
now go to Dewsbury, Ossett, and Batley, the chief seats
of the manufacture of overcoating. The other manufacturing
industries besides that of cloth in this town are gradually im-
proving, and (as was stated at the annual meeting of the Cham-
ber of Commerce) there are many signs that the general trade of
Leeds is returning. A more sound and healthy condition is
marked ; a period of prosperity has set in.
HULL CORN MARKET, TUESDAY.-There was, a small supply
of English wheat. Sellers were reluctant to dispose at is.
decline. Beans, ls. advance. Peas sell retail only. Oats fully
late rates. Barley, 'nothing doing. Wheat, 435. to 445. per
quarter ; oats, 225. to 245. per quarter ; beans, 425. to 445. ; peas,
345. to 455. per quarter,
HULL CATTLE MARKET, TUESDAY.-At this market to-day
there was a good show of lean stock, but fat beasts were scarce.
Prices were slightly higher. Trade was slow. Drapes fetched
from £ll to £l6 ; steers, st,9 to A:.14 : heifers, £9 to £l4 ; beef,
Bs. 6d. to 9s. per stone. Small show J l't cf. Sheep sold quickly,
from £2 to k 2 10s. each. A oo_t it v , small nigs. Fat pigs
scarce. Late rates cr.). )-tltt..3 L.
GLASGOW IRON - ; ;DAv.- Sco'ca pig iron has
been in request, at ii . - • . '. month.