The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-29 00:00:00

this question he observed many Noble Lords who differed from
him, shake their heads and others express their dissatisfaction in
various ways. The opinion; which lie then expressed were
the opinions which he maintained that night. He had for
the eleven years of his public life advocated nothing at
variance with those principles. In the other House'
when he had the honour of a seat there, his vote 'was alway;
for a restriction of the duties. The first vote which he gave
in their Lordships' House was for the Canada Corn Bill. He
felt that it would be imprudent of him, at that late hour of the
night, to proceed to express his feelings on this question at any
length. He felt that he ought to go into many of the points
of the speech of his Noble Friend the late Secretary of the
Colonies, hut he would not go into it in detail.—( Hear, hear. )
Now, he had heard many persons complain of a tariff of 1842.
It reminded him of eNoble Friend of his own who complained
of the immense increase in the price of butter. There were
two reasons advanced in justification of this complaint; first,
that the duty had been unnecessarily lowered, and secondly,
that the importation had been increased; but it was clearly
shown that the duty had not been lowered, and that the impor-
tation had not been increased. He regretted that the Noble
Lord (Stanley) was not in his place, because it was ex-
ceedingly distasteful to himself to reply to matter which the
Noble Lord could not possibly hear or reply to. One of the
statements of his Noble Friend was, that his Right
Honourable Friend at the head of the Government had
made it his boast that the tariff of 1842, by lowering
howthe
it
w duties,as
possible had e
thatected
competition
nrise i
nonf
shouldprit.e ,
an early hour in the evening, but he (Lord D
But that had been met by his raisealahnod the
.he)
would
visockueelsdd.
Noble Friend (Earl Grey) at
merely advert to the fact. That
Allstatement had never been
dhi inso,Rt Right
lfalromn .
exhibited Friend.
RM'l7llleStbarly
ee saagi Cr'
eSeViatsetrilal t iinemot:
bbeeern; atboocurtetahtee
atasrtiiffnlionweerreianseingthreisperorefes,. the effect of it had
by the
which the' tariffon
Lord asked what had been the effect ofP
of wool in the year 1834, during the price
rtih'ees. Then the Noble
duty of Is. 4d. ? He held in his hand apaper,re was a protective
laid upon the table of the House, in which the which,iva had been
tsrices of the different' wools was set before the7rtitlveoardd
ships. They extended from the year 1815 to the year 1845
inclusive, and it comprehended three different rates of duty.
In the year Itsl9 he found a protective duty of lid. per lb. In
the period ending 1835 he found 6d. per lb. charged, and he
found also that a protective duty of Id. was charged after-
wards, which was finally abolished in the year 1844. When it
was proposed to impose 6d. per lb., the House was informed
this would certainly be fillowed by a lowering of the prices.
The result fully justified the expectation. In the year 1800,
when the duty of 3.01. was proposed, the importation was
24,000,0001b5. and the price was 2s. 6d. Under the low duty,
the amount of wool imported increased to 39,000,0001 b,, and the
price was Is. 31d. He should like to have been permitted to
have gone through the various statements, but, at that late
hour of the evening, he would not trouble their Lordships with
the details. His Noble Friend, however, referred to the price
of timber, and he would take leave to mention to the House
one or two of the circumstances connected with the trade. The
number of their ships had increased greatly within the last
few years ; and on a comparison made with respect to the
number of foreign ships employed in the timber traele, he could
assure their Lord4ins of the fact that those were unfit for any
other purpose, and were kept afloat merely by the loads;
besides, they freighted themselves for the merest triile.
He would beg to read an extract of a statement made at a
business meeting without any other object than business. It
was at a meeting of the dock companies in Liverpool. The
Chairman observed that surprise had been expressed at an in-
crease of one hundred thousand in the shipping in the docks,
but he had to inform the proprietors that they had then to deal
with hundreds of thousands, and that if there was a more
politic tariff instituted by the Government in plaee of the pre-
sent one, no one could be able to say to w hat extent they
should have to increase their accommodation for their shinning,
and that when the duties were further reduced it would not be
in the power of man to divine what accommodation it would
be necessary to afford. At present Liverpool was the only place
boasting of 200 acres uncle- docks with but 15 miles of quays.
His Noble Friend had made some observations upon other
points connected with the one he was now discussing, but as
he saw that his Noble Friend was absent, he would not fur-
ther allude to them. But his Noble Friend had made some
observations upon the subject in the reference to the laws
affecting the trade in cern, which he felt called upon to reply
to, His Noble Friend had laid it down as a general principle
that there were high authorities in favour of a continued sys-
tem of protection to corn ; and he instanced no less an autho-
rity than the late Lord Chatham. Now he (Lord Dalhousie)
begged to say, that though he entertained the highest possible
respect for the opinion of so great a man as Lord Chatham,
yet he should say, that neither that Noble Lord, nor the
equally illustrious Mr. Pitt, could in the present day, under
the present circumstances, stand up in defence of these
protective laws ; nor did he think could any other man, capable
of taking a dispassionate view of the subject. He (Lord Dal-
housie) would appeal with cenfidence to the memorable work
of Lord Lauderdale, a nobleman whom he considered as one
who had admirably adopted the doctrine of the present day.—
(Hear, hear.) He might also adduce examples of
men equally eminent, and in more modern times.
So soon as those restrictions were removed the restrictions for
the protection of corn should he removed also.—(Hear, hear. )
Then the Noble Baron who sat near him that evening (Lord
Ashburton) repeated the statement which was made last night.
He said, " You are going to do that which no country on earth
has yet attempted; you are going to have free trade in corn ;
and solve me this question," said his Noble Friend—" what
will you do in a cheap year, when the ports of this country
are the only ports that will be open for the importation of fo-
reign corn?"—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend on the last
night asked a similar question. Now he wished to remind his
Noble Friend that no country in the world except England
imposed duties on the importation of corn merely for the sake I
of protection ; and if their Lordships would permit him, he
would real a statement which had been very carefully drawn
up, showing the amount of the protective duties imposed in
each of the other nations of the earth. It appeared that the
duty on the admission of corn in the corn-growing portions of
Turkey was 3 per cent., and in the other portions 5 per cent.
Now, he begged their Lordships to observe, that theleorn-grow-
ing portions insisted on the duty being but 3 per cent. instead
of 5 per cent. Now, he wished to ask his Noble Friend what
argument he could draw tram that in favour of
free trade. In the two Sicilies there was a duty
of about Ss. per. quarter. In Sardinia it was
about ss. In the small Italian states, the duty was
about 3d. In Tuscany there was no duty. In Greece it was
about 2d. per quarter. In Austria it was 3d., although Austria
had been quoted as a corn protecting country. In Spain prac-
tically there was no prohibition. He would ask their Lord-
ships' permission to mention one simple fact which would show
the advantage or disadvantage of that description of protective
duty upon corn. It was a fact which was upon record, that
corn had been purchased in the port of New York at 44. 6d. per
quarter, whilst wheat was selling at Castile at 1 s. per bushel.
Such was the case with regard to Belgium. The sliding-
scale had no place there. In Holland, the duty was Es. per
quarter. In Oldenburgh it was 5 to 51 per cent. per cwt.
In Naples it was 3s. 2,1. In France it was merely a protecting
duty. The other duties might be ascertained by the returns
which had been made to the House. The only correct method
of forming an estimate was by making observations from the
actual state of things at various periods. He had a statement
of the amount of grain imported into the country from 1761
to 1844. In that return he found that during the first fourteen
veers was the average about 94,090 quarters in each year.
That quantity greatly increased up till 1810, when the average
for the ten years following was 421,C00 quarters. From 1831
to 1840 the increase had taken place still further to 928,006
on the average in each year. From 1841 to 1844, inclusive,
the amount imported in each year was 1,879,000 quarters, of
which a large amount was entered for consumption. If this
were true, how could it be made to appear that the produce of
this country kept pace with the consumption of the country.
He had shown that for a long period of years, the importation
of foreign corn had increased year by year, until it had
reached in the average of the last five years to
1,879,000 in each year. How then could they think they
could maintain themselves independent of foreign countries ?
( Hear, hear.) He would now proceed to consider this posi-
tion of being dependent on foreign countries. Why, there was
not a single trade in which they were not dependent for sup-
plies from foreign countries. Look to the wool trade, in which
they were dependent on foreign countries for large supplies.
Perhaps it was not exactly the same as the corn trade, but it
was analogous. It was the same whether they took away the
life or the means of living.—( Hear, hear.) In regard to the
wool trade, large supplies of foreign wool were used up every
year in manufacturing operations There was not a coat they
wore that was not dependent on foreign supplies. There was
not a footman in their service but what would give them
notice to-morrow, if they proposed he should wear clothing
without the employment of foreign wool. The same principle
applied to the cotton trade. A Noble Lord on the opposite
side had represented the quantity of cotson wool used at
721,000 lbs. annually, and for this they were dependent en-
tirely on foreign countries.—( Hear, hear.) So it was with all
articles that made up the necessaries of life. They could not
even carry on the art of war without being dependentn it
(ion
foreigners for one of the principal means of carrying d.
They had not a single ounce of sulphur in this country, and
they could not fire off a single shot without being dependent
upon a foreign country.—( Hear. ) Now let him remind
their Lordships that they were not merelydependent
upon the foreigner for these articles of use. The depended
through the medium of the exports for the revenue and main-
tenance of the credit of the credit of the country. was
asked what were they to do for supplies in time of war ? Let
them see if this were so. Take the case of cotton. In the
year 1812 and 1814 this country was at war with the United
States of America, from whence almost all the cotton used in
this country came. Now was there a stoppage in consequence
of the war? No such thing ; for in 1812 there werr 6,109,030
lbs. introduced; in 1813, 50,900,090 lbs. ; and in 1814,
53,771,00 lbs. But let them come down to a later period, and
take the case of China. They were at war a short time age
with China, one of the most restricted nations on the f
of the aeo
earth, and who it was supposed would haoe stopped
every export to this country. Did she, however, do so? No,
she did not ; and in 1533 there were imported into this
country from China 32,069,000 lbs. of tea, in 1839 55,060,000,
in 1840 22,000,000, and in 1841 36,000,000; and he main-
tained that the same principle as was thus applied to cotton
and tea in these instances would be applied to corn. Price
seemed to have nothing to do with this question which was
confined to the consideration as to whether in time of war this
country could get supplies of corn from abroad. Upon
that point he certainly thought they need not trouble
themselves ; for even while they were at war with all
Europe there was always a supply of corn from abroad, and in
1810 the largest importations came from France.—(Hear,
hear.) He maintained,
then, that should it ever so happen
that this country wanted a supply of corn from abroad, it would
always be got.—( Hear, hear.) He was called on by the Noble
Lord who last addressed their Lordships, arid by others, to state
on the part of the Government what will be the price of corn
under the new system. He certainly was not prepared to com-
ply with any demand el unreasonable, and to say what should
be the definite and specific price of corn under the system now
to be pursued, he might be permitted to ask, with great respect
to their Lordships, whether they were entitled to demand that
information at his hands. Were they who advocated
they
main-
tenance of protection on corn prepared tio say thatne
coyuld could
predict what would have bean the price of corn.
. Friend—he would
one thing far the information of his Noble
ask, could there be a greater fallacy than to say that theh
much in fifteen years ence.
price of corn could be so
would it be any consolation to predict any such price, when,
during that period, the prices might fluctuate from one end of
the
o f corn was
the scale to the other. In the year 1832, price
and in the next year bus oneit was 395. In
58s, per quarter,
that it was 645. ; and in the year follow-
the year but hue after
when, under the
prevent it was 70s. and 575. NN. as it possible teat
follow-
ing
present system of protective duties,
of which the object was
understood to be to prevent fluctuation, such great
fluctuations
occurred, that they could, with any reason, ask him to name
the specific price of corn in future ?
The Duke of RICHMOND—Look at your last Bill.
Lord DALHOUBIIS—The Noble Duke requested him to
look into the la-t Bill, if his memory served him so as to
carry him back to 1842, the Noble Duke predicted the same ,
consequence as the result of that Bill. •
The DUKE of RICHMOND said that he did not do
anything of the sort ; he did not much like it, and he did not
ante upon it.
Lord DALHOUSIE said that perhaps he was labouring
under a misapprehension, and he was sorry for it. He said
that the present law during the last six months has proved by
its administration that the whole system of average was a fic-
tion —( Hear, hear.) What was the case ? The Noble
Lord opposite boasted that during the last three years of the
existence of the law, great steadinesi in tne prices had been

the result. During those three years the price on the first
was said to be 535.; in the seeond, 525.; and in the
the third, s'ts. 10d., and that fact was also adduced
to prove the abundance of corn in this country to the
absurdity of proposing to go on with this measure.
He held in his hand a return from the different market-towns,
which gave the highest and lowest prices in the different towns
throughout the country. In January, 1845, the highest price
was 555., and the lowest 40s. In February of the same year
555., the lowest 3ss. In January, 1846, the highest price
6 is., the lowest 393.
The Duke of RICHMOND—What are the prices of the
present year?
Earl DALHOUSIE would give the Noble Duke the re-
turn. for the present year. In November, 1845, the highest
price 685., lowest 48s. ; on the 29th of November, highest
price 695., lowest 3Ss. January 1816, highest price 695.,
lowest 445. ; September, highest price 675., and lowest
price 445. ; but, perhaps, it would be better to
give the differences of prices. They had been
255., 265., 265., '275., 29e., 315., 315., 365., 28s. He would
now call the attention of their Lordships to the prices at which
red wheat had been supplied, contract prices. In 1543, 21. 9s. 3d.,
1844, 2/. 17s. 10d. ; 1845, 21. 6s. 101. ; 37. ss. 'bd.
However he did not intend to answer the question which had
been put to him with reference to the price of corn, after this
Bill, and received the sanction of their Lordships, because all
former predictions with reference to the price of corn bad
failed. Many of the speeches which had been very ably, and
pathetically described ihe injury which would be occasioned to
the country by this passing of this law, in consequence of the
great importation of foreign corn which would follow the pass-
ing of this Bill. But they had not stated where the quantity
of corn was to come from. he the year 1828, a gentleman was
sent to the north of Europe for the purpose of inquiring into
the subject, and although not favourable to the importation of
foreign corn, he stated that no quantity beyond that already
imported could be brought into this country. In the year
1841, another gentleman was sent to make similar inquires.
The returns which that gentleman made were before him. The
total amount of corn which could be introduced into this
country from all parts of Europe was 2,200,C'0 quarters.
o w n . respect
Hte o o
id o
not thcr
dispute places.
that From Russia there were 1,230,000 quarters. From Prussia
there were, from 1835 to 1544, 635,000 quarters, and so on
withrtlt contra-
dictionw of this, that there might be an immense quantity of
grain cultivated from districts were there was none at present
a
t,t:ahhseartseavi
werevalue
however,were
the}
A,
source of supply for cattle under As
t
millions of acres
that might be cultivated, but of
well might they refer tothe plains
the newains of o
tariff,ti
tti Americabecause as a
they
at present ran about there wild. He would not allude to the
carrying charges, because he believed that the means of con-
veyance in those countries precluded
the possibility
of their being able to send the grain here at
such a rate as to undersell the British farmer.
The Noble Lord read a table of statistics to prove that the im-
partation of corn into this country would not be so great as an-
ticipated by these who opposed this measure, inasmuch as the
population of other countries world be increasing ; and even if
it were to come in. the price at which it would be sold would
not be much if at all below the price of grain in the home market.
There were a number of ether figures, with which he would not
trouble their Lordships at that late lcour, but there was one
eansideration which had not been sufficiently dwelt upon. He
sufficient
meant the increase of their own population at home. It was a
fallacy to say that they could bring into cultivation a suf
quantity of land to meet this enormous annual
increase, and he would take leave to read
a short extract from the report of the sanatory Committee.
The Noble Lord then read the extract, which stated that an
extent of new territory, equal to the counties of Surrey,
Hereford, and Cambridge, would be annually required to meet
the wants of this increasing population. There were in the
three kingdoms 28,000,000 at least, who, in the three
years, encreased at the rate of 15 per cent. in
ten years, or 300,000 a-year ; or since this measure
was introduced before Parliament an addition of 1,000 soul!.
Then when Noble Lords spoke of new lands being brought
into cultivation for the purpose of meeting the demand, they
must be perfectly well aware, that it was a matter of impossi-
t this
w country.
er
limited impossi-
bility. It was usual to treat of the United States as unbroken
ground, from which any quantity of wheat could be imported
intoßut
tithn itiwoa'ne portionwell-kno of well-known
nthth y
ate
country, thet r wheat
whole lying to the extreme west, and no quantity could be
shipped to this country, excepting at a very considerable cost.
uutehaet
districts
The Noble Lord also read an extract from some statistical do-
cuments to prove that according as the population increased in
the United States so did their exports diminish. It had been
objected that they were not to try this great experiment on
this great country. Why it has been tried, from 1766 to 1791
we had a practical free trade in corn. Taxes were not as
heavy, to be sure, then as they were now, but they weighed
every bit as heavily on the labourer ; and it was an historic
truth that the labourers of this country were more heavily
burdened than those of ether countries. Was agricelture then
in a depressed condition ? On the contrary, large quantities
of land were taken into cultivation. He knew he would be
met by the argument, that if there was a time when those who
now advocated the measure were against it, they would
say why propose it new ? But in answer to that, he
would say that the circumstances of the country rendered
it necessary, and because they concurred it would act
as one of the best stimulants to employment. The Noble
Duke on the cross benches shook his head at this assertion ;
but lie (Lord Dalhousie) begged to remind the Noble
Duke of tl.is fact, that during the railway fever of last
year every deputation that came, no matter from what
railway company, met with a favourable reception
solely because it was stated that the proposed line of railway
would afford easy access to the manufactui ing districts. Evek
by the deputations from Goole and from Norfolk, and from
all parts of Scotland, and even from Ireland, the
argument continually was that those lines were
intended to afford additional facilities for the transit
of manufactures.—( Hear, hear.) Now, he would ask, why
this longing for the prosperity of manufactures? 'Was it not
because upon them depended the prosperity of every other
branch of commerce in this country ?—( Hear, hear.) Was it
not because it was a well known4act that every manufacturing
engine that was stopped working had the effect of stopping 20
ploughs.—( Hear, hear.) These were the reasons that induced
him to support this measure, fur he felt perfectly con-
vinced it would result most beneficially for this country.
His Noble Friend, the Noble Baron who sat near him (Lord
Ashburton). in his speach that. evening, spoke of the colonial
system, and he said " Have you anti'ipated the effect which
this alteration in your policy will have upon your connexion
with the colonies ? " And he said, 4, What is the use of the
colonies if they are not to be markets for your manufactures ? "
Now he ventured to think, very humbly, that the colonies were
and ever would be an advantage, although they had a compul-
sory market there.—( Hear, hear.) But the advantage would
be greater if the market were not compulsory. Their Lordships
would permit him to remind them that that question was no
longer open. The colonial question to which the Noble Lord
had alluded, was broken down long ago.—(Hear, hear.)
There were now no longer the differential duties which for-
merly existed with respect to the admission of manufactures.
The maximum rate of differential duty with the exception of a
very few articles, including tobacco; the differential duty never
exceeded 71. per cent. The constant struggle of this
country was to advance the interests of the colonies.
The colonies imposed higher duties than even the Imperial
legislation, but the colonial system, as described by the Noble
Baron, no longer existed. Well, now, what was the state of
the case with regard to the colonies as to the alterations which
were now about to be made? If his Noble Friend the late Se-
cretary for the Colonies had been present, he would, no doubt,
bear in mind that the only two articles which it was feared by
some might be injured were timber
and corn. His Noble
Friend who sat near him (Lord Ashburton) had said that they
were about by this measure to discourage mer-
chandise in the colonies. Now, with respect to corn,
what was the amount of the carrying trade? He held in
his hand, a return to which he begged tie Noble Lords atten-
tion. On the 11th of October, 1843, the importation amounted
to 11,450 quarters. In 1844 there were 14,360 quarters. In
June, 1835, there:were morel han 13,000 quarters. He did net
trust simply in these returns, but he relied upon a ditpatch
which had come from his Noble Friend, Lord Cathcart. That
despatch was dated the 2.6,h of March, 1845. It would
be impossible to decide the ditty of these returns.
Mr. Baldwin "said they wished for no foreign interference, as
they wished the connexion with the mother country to contiue.
He believed that whatever the country might have suffered
from British rule in former times, it was much better now, and
that there was a disposition to do justice.—( Hear, hear.)
These, with the other circumstances he had alluded to,
were sufficient answers to the alarm which was said to
exist in Canila in relation to those commercial principles
He would, however, mention two other facts with reference tf
the colonies. In the Legislature of Nova Scotia, when
a .ie.
country.
age was delivered in reference to the defences of the
the answer was, " Take the suns you want—thel)
whole
revenue
•
if it is necessary." In New Brunswick, whole revenue was,0001. was voted
for the same purpose, arid the ivle
placed at the disposal of the Executive for the
the
feeling in the
same purpose. This showed
colonies. For himself he entertained a deep in'erest in these
colonies. As he had spent, though not in an official capacity,
many years of his life there. He had no tear from any want of
was
loyalty on their part, and he sure, should the time come
when their services might be required, they would be as prodi-
gal and loyal of their blood these as they were of their treasure
now. I4e had now touched on the various points of
this great question, hut before sitting down, he would address a
few words to reference to what had fallen from some Noble Lords
regarding the conduct of her Majesty's Ministers. They had
been called upon to account for the adoption of the preamble of
this Bill. He, for one, admitted that it would have been
better if the measure had proceeded from other hands, and none
regretted more than he did that the Noble Lord who had been
called upon to form a Government (Lord John Russell)
ih order to carry a similar measure, had failed in the attempt.
This was the measure they were called upon to give effect to.
on the conviction that treachery would be charged to them, if
they failed to act. Their Lordships may cause her Majesty's
Government to change. They might charge them with va-
cillation. They might ruin them before the people for
iuemasistedey—but he would submit respectfully to their
Lordships, that even though all those points should be
made, it would not justify such a word as treachery. There
was no man in that House believed mote than he did in the
high necessity of governing this country by party. He reeog -
uised the influence of party, but he recognised a higher oblige-
ion still. He had not the honour of a seat in
the Cabinet at the time when it came to a
decision with respect to the measure then before them.
but he had no desire to avoid the responsibility which rested
on his his Noble Friend near him, for that responsibility he
recognised as his right. Would any one say what course he
should have taken had he been a member of the Cabinet at
that time ? Because no man who was acquainted with the facts
that occurred could tell what course he would have
. taken if the facts had been known at the time the
he did say, and he trusted that their Lordships would not
think it presumptuous in an individual as humble as he was,
when he stated, that in his opinion there was no difference in
the responsibility of the First Minister of the Cabinet and the
meanest individual in it. There was no difference between the
Minister suggesting a measure to his Sovereign,and one who in a
subordinate capacity adopted it. Should it ever be his fate to
be placed in a position of such a kind, in which the alternative
was placed before him, of adhering to party, and of giving ef-
fect to a determined and solem conviction, he should adopt the
course her Majesty's Ministers have adoped. He was
bound to admit that if he adhered to
party while he was bound by duty
in another way, it would be a thousand times better that he
did walk the earth branded as a traitor to party, than to live
in the consciousness that if, in adhering to party, he had done
that which was right in the eye of the law, while he enter-
tained the consciousness that he was a traitor to his
Sovereign, or to the responsibility imposed on him.
—( Hear, hear.) He hoped that he might never
be placed in so painful a position as that, but if he were,
and he should be so compelled, it would not be presumptuous
in a public man, whose character, like those of all other public
men, whose characters belonged to the public. He should be
bound not to loose himself from the responsibility be-
longing, in so great a measure to his Noble Friend
near him. lie should do so as he had already done and he
should submit to the penalty. I should give my counsels to
my Sovereign and act to the best that which was in mv so-
vereigna charge. Whenever I had done so it is most true
I shouldt that
I might be exposed to the indignation of party,
high tribunal
but Iy,
but
entitled to stand upright before
have to thank
of my conscience. Now I have done, have listened
your Lordships for the patience with which you
to me.—(Cheers.) I have only one word more. I wish I
could command the eloquence whichwas
the other night, by a Noble Friend of mine not now present,

I