The Sun.
London, England, 1846-05-26 00:00:00

GROUP XIII.

This Committee met to-day at twelve o'clock, Sir William Clay in
the chair; other Members present, Earl Jermyn, Mr. P. Ainsworth,
and Mr. Cartels.
NORTH BRITISH (C.B.RI.ISLE EXTENSION).
The case on behalf of this line was resumed
Mr. Blythe was recalled, and put in the abstract in reference to
the cast of the works which counsel on behalf of the Caledonian re-
quested on Friday. He had had considerable experience of con-
structing railways, and he believed the estimates quite correct. He
had made borings along the line to ascertain the strata.
Mr. Miller, civil engineer, deposed that the line had been laid
down by Mr. Blythe from his instructions. These instructions were
given after consulting the feelings of the proprietors along the line.
He had had several interviews with the Duke of Buccleuch and Sir
James Graham. He believed the line as now laid down a good and
practicable one. The present line was different from what it had
been when originally laid down, but it had been altered to meet the ob-
jections of the proprietors. Had the line from Canobie to Netherby
been run along the west bank of the Esk, it would have been very
injurious to Netherby-park. It was the best line in an engineering
point of view that could be formed without seriously injuring
private property. It was their intention to run into the central
station in Carlisle, the ground of which had been scheduled
by the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway. The land had
been scheduled not for that Company particularly, but to accom-
modate all the lines conveying there. The people of Carlisle were,
he believed, very anxious for such a central station. The Caledonian
line from Eden Water, about half a mile from Carlisle to the latter
place, was nearly the same as the present line; but they could be
easily run along the same ground by laying down two extra lines of
rails. There would be no difficulty in constructing the two lines in
the manner he described. With reference to the Canobie
colliery, the line was so laid that locomotives could go
up to the works. He had gene over the estimates of
Mr. Blythe, and he thought them quite enough. The prices of the
works in the estimates of Mr. Blythe were higher than similar works
had been tendered for on other parts of the North British Railway.
He knew the district well, and he thought it was important to have
an outlet to the south.

Cross-examined—He made the estimates of the Edinburgh and
Hawick last year. He believed the works on that line had been let
at prices as low as he there gave. He was not aware if the
Dalhousie 'viaduct was let at a higher price than he gave in his
estimates ; but if so, it must be owing to change of situation, by
which the viaduct was longer. The price of the cubical quantity
he was sure was not increased. The viaduct was changed from the
Parliasasntary line, but within the limits of deviation. About twenty
miles of the Edinburgh and Hawick had been let. At the present
time, he believed, that wages were less than they were two months
ago. If the works of the Bills, which Parliament has sanctioned,
were pressed, then wages would possibly rise ; but he did not
think that engineers would so push the works. The steepest
gradient was 1 in 7.5 going from Carlisle to Hawick,
but he did not think there would be any heavy lands going that way,
They would come the other way. He thought this line would be
worked cheaper than the Edinburgh and Hawick, for the reason that
on the Edinburgh line, the heavy loads would go up kill, and occasion
greater expense in working. He had calculated the Edinburgh and
Hawick line at 40 per cent., but 37 per cent. he thought enough for
the present line. An arrangement bad been made about the crossing
of Borough-street, in Carlisle. The street was to be crossed by a bridge
15 or 16 feet high. According to the deposited plans and sections, the
street was to be lowered 3 feet, and to be crossed by an arch 12
feet high with twenty feet span. This had been altered by arrange-
ment with the authorities by which the arch was to be raised and
the street lowered a little more. He was not aware that the agree-
ment specified that the street should not be depressed more ; should
there be no such depression than the alteration could not be done in
agreement with the Parliamentary rules unless they could deviate
the road. Another street was to be crossed by an arch instead of by
the
obe level crossing according
believed
to arrangement, but that could
ne
with the Parliamentary deviation. mfwnlitYn
no objecting parties to the present
line going into the Carlisle central station but the Caledonian Com-
pany. The Lancaster and Carlisleo Company opposed them, because
they wereobliged t o do so on
Mr. Berrew,l and valuer, d .:int of the Caledonian Company.
aetdowa 5it,0628. 170. to the value of the land, which
Nelson, builder, of Carlisle, said 40
01 had valued the
house property to be taken in Carlisle at 21,4001.
This was the case for the promoters.
CALEDONIAN (LANIZIKOZat 301.112/c11).
The ease eke behalf of this line, and m opposition to the North
British (Carlisle
Extension) was then gone into.
The formal proof, M compliance with Mr. Dunconibe's resolutions,
were put Eniflot. late of
and
received.
Mr. Roxbnrghshire, and now of Dumfries, ex-
amined brother was a manufacturer in Hawick, and he had
often assistsd him. He now lived about
knsixewmfithese from
country b Anne ee ntw'anll
had been there for about nine years.
hilly
district,andthe
Annan and Hawick well. It was a very
popu-
lation very thin—a shepherd population. He was now often
In the habit of going
Hawick. Between
was to Langholna, and from thence to
into Roxburgh. The road he went
Langhelm and Hawick the mainly grazing,
there being but little under culfins were
tiarvation.Th e principal outlet
of the hosiery trade of Hawick was Edinburgh and Glasgow. But a
small proportion went southwards. The same applied to the other
branches. He believed the total trade was not more than 800 or
1,000 tons, and if half of that went south it would not be very
much. They were generally coarse goods that could not find a
market in England. The population between Hawick and Lang-
holm, in the parishes of Hews, Westerldrk. and Eskdale Muir,
through which the line passed, was in the proportion of 9%,
16 and 93 to the square mile, for these parishes there were
but 10, 11, and 10 houses respectivel indow-tax. In
Hoberton and Cavern, the proportion wassomewhat similar. In the
whole town of Hawick but 72 houses paid the window-tax. (The witness then went through the whole route of the line, reading from a table in his hand the respective populations of each parish to the
square mile and the houses in each assessed to the window-tax.
A number of places for which the traffic-tables of the North
British took credit, would be but little accommodated by the line.
The population of Langhelm was but 2,000, and the mannfaeturers
were trifling. There were two distilleries there. Throughout the
extent of the country he referred to the principal occupation on the
land was raising lean stock, but he did not think many of them would
pass along the line. The fat stock was mainly raised on the coast of
Ilawick, and Newcastle and Morpeth were the principal markets.
Rut little went by Carlisle. Newcastle and Morpeth he thought
would still continue the best markets. Though he resided but six
miles from the port of Annan, during six out of nine years he hsent
his fat sheep to Newcastle. Of the grain that came from Roxburgh
towards "Anaheim the quantity might be 2,000 tons. He thought
port of
the quantity of slates taken from theLangliolin would be
about 1,200 tons, of which 800 tons
went to traffic was coal, of which there WEIS from Iwool. The principal
81,0000 tons.
For the wants of the district the Caledonian
p(lLaacnetiligg Branch)
would serve the town of Langholm and the
Hawick would be greatly benefited by the North British wßrit, but
That benefit, however, would be got at the expense of the Cf=ho-
nian, as it would take away the Edinburgh through traffic
of that line. The local traffic of the North British filawick line)
Railway could not support the railway, and it must depend on taking
the through traffic from the Caledonian Railway. He was per-
suaded two through lines could not be supported by the traffic. The
witness then went over the calculation of the number of parties that
were estimated by the North British to use the railway—a quantity
which he considered greatly exaggerated.
Cress-examined—At the time he was in Hawick, Cheviot wool
was alone used, but now there was a great deal of foreign wool used.

He knew Messrs. Long and Nixon well, and they were well qualitle,
to speak as to the trade of Hawick. The trade of Hawick might have
been increased one-third since 1839. He did not think.that a great
quantity of grain came into Dumfriesshire from:Roxburghshire. He
thought that if lean stock were taken cheaper by ailway than by
driving, the former method would be preferred.
The witness was strictly cross-examined by Mr. Liddell, who ap-
peared for the Duke of Buccleuch and Sir James Graham, but no
point of material importancewas elicited.
Mr. Adam Black, Lord Piovost, of Edinburgh, examined, said,
that when the Caledonian was brought e, fore Parliament
last year, there was a strong feeling in Edinburgh in its
favour, and a numerously signed petition in its favour was sent up.
The inhabitants of Edinburgh supported the Caledonian line, because
it gave them a good outlet to the south, opened up the Wilsonstown
coal-fields, be the means of bringing a supply of water into Edin-
burgh, and be a check on the Edinburgh and Glasgow Company.
to
would be a great injury, he considered, if anything should happen
cripple the proper working of the Caledonian line. He did not think
the extension from Hawick to Carlisle would benefit Edinburgh
much, while it would take a large proportion of the through
traffic
fromithe Caledonian line.
Cross-examined—At the time the feeling was so strong in favour
considerable deal of r and the line
of the Caledonian, the choice was between the latte
was
talked
of.
by Dumfries through the Hawick and Carlisle line
He had no doubt the Hawick line would take
think Hawick should be benefited at the expense the through traffic, but he could not say howanse He
think erHane ddidinneroet
important interests.
gfoo:dsthewerzenglishstoredin
ooficGlasgdowcialassaldhiheeisd. ealtylearrygelllyttinle tweedsstook
and purchased urcpuillhasopedmeartchHanat'wi
saerntgotoodsGlaswgeroew. mAadein
Glasgow. The
t Thin either
arpylaceeo,
ursbuet
was
the north o
went to Edinburgh. The whole value of the goods
mer-
chants to cf-omiseeeounnotreclind
Gthlas-atgo were
might be 236 0001
The greater proportion
of the hosiery and blankets were consumed in Scotland. The goods
por-
tionman manufactured
for the English market went by the east by steam from Berwick and
eurgersin Hawick
Leith. The English and foreign wool was brought from London to
Berwick at 12s. 6d. a ton. It was of no importance that the transit
should be quick, and the steamers were the most eligible conveyance.
The dye stuffs were principally brought from Glasgow, and time
was not of much importance in the conveyance of these.
Groceries for Hawick were mainly purchased at Edinburgh. The
whole of the general merchandise brought into Hawick was 1,768
tons, and the gross traffic that went from that town was, to Edin-
burgh 832 tons, towards Carlisle 88 tons, and towards Newcastle
234 tons. He was assisted by Mr. Thomson, of Glasgow, a hosiery,
merchant, in making out his calculations. The trafilw in goods be-
tween Edinburgh and Carlisle was not such as to warrant the con-
struction of two lines.
Cross-examined—He got the traffic to Carlisle, to Newcastle, and

to Edinburgh from the carriers on the roads. He had only been in
Hawick two or three times, but they had communication with
Hawick weekly.
Re-examined—Though he did not often go to Hawick himself, his
partner went there monthly, and they knew the trade well.
Mr. Thompson corroborated the evidence of the previous speaker
respecting the hosiery trade, which he represented to be principally
for the Scotch market. The whole weight of the hosiery was 200
tons, of which about one-third might go south.
Re-examined—He knew Mr. Nixon and Mr. Lang, of Hawick,
and they were well qualified to speak of the trade of Hawick.
Mr. Sanderson, who was well acquainted with the carrying trade,
supported the evidence of the previous witnesses as to the traffic of
Hawick and Galashiels. About one-sixth of the goods manufactured
went to England, the remainder went to Edinburgh and Glasgow.
The freight from Leith to London for manufactured goods was about
Is. per foot, or 40s. a ton by measurement. He did not think there
was sufficient to support two lines of railway from Edinburgh to
Carlisle. He applied the same principle to Galashiels that he did
to Hawick.

Cross-examined—He had been at Galashiels, bat he never had
carried between Edinburgh and that town. He had not been at

lawick.

The CHAIRMAN said there was a discrepancy between the present
evidence and that of the witnesses called by the .North British re-
specting the traffic south.
The witness said he had some memoranda which he took down at
the time he visited Galashiels, detailing the information given by the
manufacturers. (The witness here read several of the items he took
down at the time in support of the estimate he had given in.) Mr.
Syme, the witness who had deposed that the most of his goods went
south, would not give him any information.
Mr. Railton, manager for Mr. Mitchell, carrier, of Carlisle, said that
the whole through traffic from Carlisle to Edinburgh was 742 tons
each way. The Galashiels and Carlisle traffic was about 4011 tons each
way. The traffic from Carlisle to Hayrick and back was 335 tons.
The traffic from Hawick to Edinburgh and Glasgow was 800, and
from these cities to Hawick about 2,000 tons. He had seen the goods
tables of the Hawick and Carlisle line, and he thought them very
much overcharged. They were more likely to be 300/. than 3,000/.
He thought especially the estimate for parcels most exorbitant. Mr.
Hargreaves was the only other throngh carrier.

Cross-examined—He estimated the traffic on the road from the
number of horses employed by the other carrier and the carriers be-
tween Hawick and Galashiels and Edinburgh and Glasgow. With
regard to the parcels, he merely thought from his knowledge of the
present trade, that no such traffic could be had. He did not, how-
ever, know how many parcels were carried by other lines.
Mr. Carruthers generally deposed that there was but little traffic
from Hawick, by way of the Annan, and Carlisle, and Liverpool
steamers. He generally agreed with the evidence of Mr. Renton.
Cross-examined—He only spoke of his own vessel, the Newcastle.
There was another, the Victoria, but he could not precisely speak of
the traffic of that vessel. He thought the present communication
sufficient for the wants of the traffic of the district, except it migkt
be for the coal traffic.

Mr. Piper, proprieter of the coaches between Carlisle and Edin-
burgh, through Ilawick and Galashiels, examined—Said the pas-
senger traffic to Hawick was inconsiderable. There were two
coaches, the mail, and the Engineer. From Hayrick, by the mail,
the passengers yearly were, to Langholm 34 ; to Langton, 40 ; to
Carlisle, 76. From Hawick, by the Engineer, the passengers were,
to Langholm, 162 ; to Langton, 10 ; and to Carlisle, 212. The En-
gineer went through to Lancaster, and the through traffic made up
for the small Hawick traffic. The country from Hawick was very
thinly populated. He thought the estimate of 3,0001. for parceis per-
fectly fictitious.

Mr. Tither, coach proprietor, of Carlisle, generally concurred in
the evidence of Mr. Piper. Last year the passengers from Carlisle
by the mail to Langholm were 282, to Hawick 388, and to Gilashiels
and Selkirk 132. The traffic on that road was not great, either in
passengers or posting. The passengers taken by the other coach were
about 50 per cent. more than by the mail, the number of which he
had given. _ _

Mr. Ausxix called tke attention of the Committee to the figures in
the table of the North British, which did not materially differ in the
results to which the last witness had deposed.
The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow at twelve o'clock.