The Sun.
London, England, 1833-07-17 00:00:00

IRISH CHURCH REFORM BILL.

Earl GRL.-Y—lt now becomes my duty to address
your Lottiships on the subject of the very im-
porta:it Bill which has already taken up
so considerable a portion of your Lordship's time this
evening. From what has passed even on the present oc
casion, it is utterly impossible that I should not
be deeply impressed with all the difficulties of the
circumstances in which we are placed. Under these
difficulties, my consolation and suppart most be,
that the time has at last come, wh,n the feel-
ings, and the motives, and the principles
which have governed the cenduct of his Majesty's Minis-
ters, may he fairly explained ; and when an answer may
be made to imputations of conduct, which are as
far removed :from our intention as they would
be at variance with the nmst sacred obligations,
both of our private and public dtry.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) lam well aware of the feelings, the preju-
dices, the sensitive, and, in many respects, laudab
affections which must agitate men's minds on the mere
mention of any interference with the institutions of the
Established Church. I well know the dread with which
many sincere and conscientious men listen to any propo-
sals for changing what they have been accustomed
to regard as sacred. I do not blame those feelings,
or wish to shake them, for I know they at e
from a virtuous principle, and that when duly controlled
by calm reason and comprehensive charity they are soli-
tary. God forbid that I should do violence to them, or do
any thing that could shake them, for I would rather, citi
the contrary, call them to my aid in the discussion of pro-
positions, with I will contend are propositions brought
forward with a sincere desire not to impair or weaken,
but by averting the dangers with which it is threatened, to
strengthen, to increase, and to uphold the securities
of the established church. To this discussion I will en-
deavour to address myself in a temper suited to the subj cT,
and if any heat has already manifested itself ii.
the course of this evening I trust it will disappear, a' fi
that we shall act under that sense of duty which tit
Noble Duke (Newcastle) so emphatically recommended
to our consideration, and shall act firmly; shall hear
patiently, and shall examine calmly all the statement,
grounds on which this meusure is proposed. We h
heard, t 00, too rather singular prepositions Iron;
on the opposite side of the House, one of them addres,-
ing the Reverend Bench of Bishops, desires them
shut their eyes to all consequence.—(Hear, I ear.)
He had stated that the object of the Ministry wa
to provide that security for the Church of Irelon.
which the necessity of the times required. Did tha.
necessity exist ? He would ask their Lordships to lo I.
at the events that had been passing in that county.
fur the last few years—( Hear, hear, hear)—he
say within the last two months. Could any one Ion:
at the passing events and say that nothing in iii,
shape of amendment was necessary in or,h
to work for ever the salvation of the whole fabric. At
the beginning of the session the subject was rt,cou,
mended to their consideration in the speech fro.

Mr. SPRING RICE perfectly concurred in the gene,
cal principles laid down by the Hon. Member, and -eee
pressed his belief that the time had alre Ay come, when'.
down in his memorable speech on the 27th of
June, 1821, when he brought before the House
a detailed account of the income and eipenditute of she
country, and stated specifically the items in Which he
considered reduction should be made. The /Joh'. 6, ra,;
tleman then proceeded to show that 700,000/: entire
had been saved by the late and present Government tease'
had been contemplated by Mr. Hume in 1821. In the
general reductions, they had carried their saving 798.894/.
further than he contemplated ; and in the collection of
the revenue they reduced the expense 112,033/. blow hit
estimate. The sum of 50,000/. had been saved ha di-
plomatic expenditure. Two-fifths of all the salarite hart
been reduced. He hoped that all those statements woo!
how to those who were not wilfully blind to the fact;
that the efforts of his Majesty's Government to reduce
the public expenditure had been considerable; and that
they ought not to be undervalued, especially by those
who professed to be their friends. It must be recellste,r4
that the more economical a Government, the less wao
left to be done by Parliament. Taking-his Hon. Fr
the Member for Middlesek, as the persenthration of all
economy, and supposing him the Chancellor 01 the! .c.e-
chequer, and making all the reductions which emild tr;+
possibility occur to him, what would remain to tiv
done, or even to be proposed, by any other Member Cft
that House? There was another point of savine
to which he (Mr. Rice) adverted with the trio e
satisfaction, as it had taken place during the time: of the
existence of his Majesty's present Ministers as a Go.
verntnent. He alluded to the charges on the Colonial
Department. When his Majesty's present Government
came into office, those charges amounted annually to
572,8021. Between November, 1830, and April, 1832,
they had been reduced by 132,9171.; a further reduction
was in progress, which would bring the whole reduction
to 254,2001.; reducing the original charges to 318,6001,
It thus appeared, that they had actually reduced the charges
23 per cent., and that further reductions were in progress
which would make the whole:reduction 39 per cent. Those
reductions were highly important, with teterence not only
to the amount of public money saved, but to the curtail-
ment which had taken pace of the patronage of the Crown.
He would now advert to savings which had been made
in another branch of the public expenditure ; and he con •
fessed that he had great gratification in making these state-
ments, because they appeared to him to be satis'actory
answers to the eternally reiterated questions—a, What have
you done? Show us what you have done?" The saving
to which he now wished to advert was the saving that had
been made in the collection of the revenue. In the last
twelve years 2;712 offices had been abolished in the Cus-
toms, making an annual saving of 273,290/. By appoint-
ing to vacant places in the Customs from the retired list,
and other proceedings, his Majesty's present Government
had actually effected a reduction of 28,7981. and had
other savings in prospect which would bring the total
reduction to 76,4901. In the Excise there had been a
decrease of expense of 72,0001. At the present moment
there was a Commission sitting on the Excise Depart-
ment, at the head of which was Sir Henry Parnell,—
a sufficient pledge, he thought, of the sincerity of
his Majesty's Government on the subject of rt..
duCtion. It appeared, upon the whole, that on an
expenditure of 15,000,00 W , a reduction of no less than
3,000,0001. had been effected. There was this further
most important fact, namely, that all the saving had been
applied to the reduction of taxation; no part of it had
been reserved to bolster up an artificial system of finance
in the shape of a sinking fund. He really thought that
the Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward the pre-
sent motion, as well as other Hon. Gentleman who
supported it, would do well were they sometimes to
look at the bright aide of things, and not be always,
night after night, pressing the dark side on i.ublic :at-
tention. It was not just to his Majesty's Government, it
was not just to the House, it was not just to the public
to exclude from their consideration all that bad been
done in diminution of the burdens of the. people. If any
body had been told four years ago, that in the course of
two sessions a reduction of three millions would Ir ave
been made in the national expenditure, without any in-
jury to public credit, such an assertion would not have
been believed.—(Mr. Hume here entered the House and
took his seat.) He (Mr. Rice) was rejoiced to see his
Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex enter the House ;
and be would take leave to repeat some of his statements
that his Hon. Friend might be aware of them. He
would show his Friend that his Majesty's Government
had taken that course in the reduction of indirect taxa-
tion, which, when his Hon. Friend was Member for Aber-
deen, he had recommended; although since his HOO.Fliend
had come south, he seemed to have altered Iris opinion,
and to think that the reduction of direct taxation, such as
the house and window duty, was preferable.—(The
Hon. Member here recapitulated the various reduc-
dtieolnibsewraltich had been
e attention e ffo
fhe d. ) H
his
Honourable
e begged
Frientdo
tcoa l the
! te
these
facts; frets, which, when in summer Honourable Mem-
bers should visit their constituents, would enable them to
show that they had trot been idle. As to the question
immediately before the House, it was one in which all
must agree. Let the Honourable Member for Dublin
show a sinecure which could justly be reduced, and he
would find his Noble Friend as ready to agree to the re-
duction as the Hon. Member could be to propose it.
The point of difference between them was this :—The
Hon. Member for Dublin was of opinion that all sine-
cures should be at once abolished; without any inquiry
whether the parties by whom they were enjoyed had or
had not any vested interest in them. Where sinecures
could justly be abolished they had been so. When the
Keepership of the Great Seal in Scotland became vacant,
the salary had been abolished, although the office had
been left, as a situation of honour. As to such sinecures
as those enjoyed by Lord Ellenberough, Lord Kenyon, &c.,
they had been settled by legislative enactment, and were
not open to any interference on the part of his Majesty's
Government. When the Hen. Alember for Dublin
argued that they should abolish all sinecures, he f.rgot
that some of them were secured to their present possessors
by statute.—(Hear, herr.) The two Chief Justices in
Eyre bad been abolished, because the holders had no
vested interest in them. If a grant were made which
the donor had no authority to make, that was a good
reason for altering it ; but where the donor had au-
thority to make a grant, it would be unjust to take it
away. It would be a much better and a touch safer
economy, to reserve interference of this nature for eases in
which the opinion of all mankind would be in favour of
that interference, than to endeavour to do too much, and_
to interfere where opinion would be against that.
inter-
ference. '1 here was not a sinecure on the list wh,tic
was
not regulated with a view eventually to put anen
The Hon. Member for Dublin had spoken of the situ 4tloll
He could assure
of a Lord of the Treasury as a sinecure.
not mean to use the
the Hon. Member that (be did n
• offensively) there never was a more preposterous
expression o
of his 1-I,n F '
• • and if be knew the labours
issertion,
himself allow it. He ervited
he Hun. Gentleman wouldwhich
t
For AHloidnd. leGsean,titeomeaanllaantd thehis THre°an:urF; it'on-lutot:reowl‘irrl7er
'r-
ing, that they might be convinced of the indelatiga• iri-

dustry of his Hon. Friends, and be prepared to report it
to the House. Undoubtedly the affirmation of such a
proposition as that of the Hon. Member for Dublin would
be of no importance, except as it would lead to the inference
that certain sinecures should be ab6lished imme-
diately, which were undoubtedly open to future
abolition ; but which could not he abolished imme-
diately without gross injustice. With respect to the
legal sinecures to which he had already adverted,
there was one great mistake. When they were
granted, the appointments of the Judges were cot what
they were at present, and those sinecures were granted to
make up the deficiency. He did not defend the act, but
of course it could not occur again. It was impossible to
advert to the subject of sinecures, without thinking with
edmiration of the noble conduct of Lord Camden. Ti e
step which had been taken by that Noble Marquis, was
a rare instance of disinterestedness in any man, aid an
unexampled instance in a public man. It was certainly
to be regretted that such a pattern of virtue and patriotism
had not met with a single imitator. But it must be
recollected that it was one thing for an individual spon-
taneously to take a course of virtue and patriotism, and
another thing to compel an individual to relinquish that
to which he was by law entitled. He had now said
enough to furnish a complete answer to the statements of
the Hon. Member opposite. That Hon. Member accused
them of having failed in the performance of their duty.
He denied it ; and he asserted that they hail made great
reductions wherever it was practicable, and that, consider-
ing all the circumstances in which they were placed, they
must be admitted to have re.'eerned their pledges, and, in
redeeming them, to have done their duty.
Mr. H. L. BULWER said that though he did not
think they acted rightly, who were always making attacks
on the Government, and denying that they did anything,
yet it must be admitted that a watchful opposition not
confining themselves strictly to recommendations that n ere
easily practicable, but occasionally going a little beyond
that line, and urging the Ministers forward to do some-
thing more, were of great advantage both to the country
and the Ministers, the latter of whom frequently were glad
to have forced on them an excuse for doing what the people
required. He admitted that the Government had reduced
40,0001. a year out of 140,000/. a year, in our di-
plomatic service.—(Hear, hear.) Less expense was
now necessary in that department than formerly; for
then, when Ministers were sent to Kings alone, it might
tee a wise policy to give them the means of expi nding
large sums, and living in the style of those around them ;
but now that Kings were not the only persons, tut men
who were responsible not only to Kings, but to repre-
sentative assemblies, and that business was the chief ob-
ject of the mission, the necessity of a large expenditure
was considerably diminished. The Government had cer-
teinly done something in this matter ; but they might
advantageously carry it much further. He wished his
Hon. Friend would withdraw the motion, which was too
general and comprehensive in its nature, and would in-
troduce to the notice of the House some individual case,
to which no vague and general answer could be given.
He knew that this was the case as to most matters of
finance; for he had once undertaken to bring forward a
question on that subject, but was warned by the Hon.
Member for Middlesex, that it would occupy him some
months to examine the documents necessary to render his
statements intelligible.
Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY could not but remember
that the present Government had come into office upon
- the distinct pledge of economy, and yet now in the 18th
year of peace, the expenditure still continued most enor-
mous. He admitted that the Government had done
something ; but not to such an extent as to satisfy the
reasonable wishes of the people. They had come into office
opposed to the known wishes of a majority in another
piece, and had been placed by the people in a prouder
situation than any of their predecessors ; and all this upon
their pledging themselves to economy. Yet he could not
congratulate them on their having satisfied the hopes of
the people in the reductions they had effected. Perhaps,
in answer to this, the Noble Lord would appeal to the
reduction of the duty on soap, and to the repeal of a few
other comparatively trifling duties ; but the people would
not be satisfied till they got rid of that direct taxation
which so much oppressed them. Their wishes on that
suhj'ct were known to the Noble Lord before he came
into office, and he must be considered to have taken office
with the intention of gratifying those wishes. He (Sir
S. Whalley) could not offer his humble support to the
Government till the wishes of his constituents in this
respect were satisfied. The metropolis suffered most
from these direct taxes, and had a right to complain.
Nothing made the present Ministers so popular when they
were out of office, as their opinions upon the Pension List.
But hew had the expectations which those opinions
raised been fulfilled? He was glad that the Ministers did
not mean to oppose the placing of this resolution on the
minutes of the House, and he should therefore hope that
the Hon. Member would not withdraw it, but would put
it on the records of that House, as a proof that that House
did bear in mind the necessity of economy, and was desi-
rous of gratifying the wishes of the people.
Sir H. VERNEY said that he could not let the observa-
tions of the Hon. Member for Coventry pass without some
remark. That Hon. Member seemed to suppose that the
expenses of the diplomatic es•ablishments of this country
might be considerably lessened. Now, he must say, that
Consuls under the present system were less efficient in
maintaining the inter eats of British merchants than they had
been under the former system. In his opinion they should
be persons with a respectable salary, and not merchants
actually engaged in trade. He recommended the Govern-
ment to observe the condition of South America most at-
tentively. On the death of Dr. Francis, extensive domi-
nions of Paraguay, now under his control, would present
a wide field to British industry and enterprise. He hoped
that the Government would establish a good Consulship
at Monte Video, by the castle of which all ships must
piss to make their way to those parts of South America,
where he believed a most extensive commerce would be
called into existence, when the Chine.e system of exclu-
sion maintained by Dr. Francis was at an end. In the
same manner he advised the Government to watch the
trade on the western coast of South America, as he be-
lieved it would materially affect our trade with China. It
would he the more necessary to do this when we threw
open, as we were about to do, the trade of Cline. 'Flue
Americans had already directed their attention to these
matters, and the Sandwich Islands had recently been made
a sort of depot by them for their China trade, and their
trade with South America.
Mr. HUME assured his Hon. Friend that be had never
stated that no reductions hod been made by the present
Government; on the contrary, he had always admitted
that great reductions had been made by it, but still not
such reductions as were commensurate either with the
wants or the wishes of the country. He begged leave also
to remind his Hon. Friend that there had been a consi-
derable simplification in the public accounts since the year
1821 ; indeed, so much so, thet now any man with a little
trouble might m ike himself master of all the public ac-
counts, save those which regarded sums stopped in their
course to the Exchequer. The ecc iunts had already been
greatly simplified by his Hon. Ft lend, and he trusted that
they would be still further simplified, as they might he with
little trouble, in the course of next year. He was sorry
to be obliged to tell his Hon. Friend that, of er all
the reductions which had been effected by the Govern-
ment, they had only just left the expenditure at the
level at which he :ound it when he took up this sub-
ject in 1821. The expenditure of 1833 was within
a very small fraction as large as the expenditure of 1820.
_—(Hear, bear.) The reduction in the amount of it arose
entirely from the diminished charge of the national debt
since that time.---(Cries of " No.") He would prove
that point beyond al: contradiction. He must begin by
reminding his lion. Friend of what he (Mr. Hume) had
stated in 1821. He had said that in the year 1792 our
whole expenditure amounted to 15,000,000/. ; of this
sum 9,000,000/. was devoted to defraying the charge of
the national debt, and the other 5,000,0001., or rather
more, say 5,500,000/, was distributed over the military,
naval, civil, and diplomatic services of the country. He
had then put it to the House that in the year 1819 the
expense or those services had ris- n from 5,500,000/. to
22,000,000/., and that the expense of the debt bail risen
from 9,000,000/. to 30,250,000/. In the year 1821 the
expenditure was 53,000,000/. ; now it was 50,000,000/.
Ot this sum 28,000,000/. and upwards went to p'y the
interest of the debt, so that the difference in the amount
of the charge of the debt in 1819, and in 1823, seas in
round numbers, 2,900,000/. Now this was, within a
very small fraction, the sum of the difference between the
amount of the expenditure in 1819 and in 1833. He,
therefore, contended that he had a right to say that the
differ' in e in the expenditure of the two years arose from
Cie diminished charge of the n itional debt, eff etef, as
by the reduction of the 4/. and the 51.
cierybody knew,
per Cents to- a stock of a lower denomination. The
savi,ne;_hielVe,4thliehtnents of Ihe year 1820 was now,
i
.4-:- ll9atitdmitted ,' that in that interim the expenses
e" 1-Out Ott blishmentrhad much increased, and that
t,nes
Still litte Government,had done hiuch, and that the
a;rt.irent Government had done more, to reduce our ex.
ncliture to. the level of IB2o.—(Hear, hear.) One
4‘. advantage.h44:been derived to the country from
:fteeeesion of the present Ministers to office, and that
411a4shat-theyshati,tedured the charges on the Civi Li,t,
anl.-brtritst all the expenses of the State, save abau:
calf a Minion, under the control of Parliament. There a•ae

no department into which the House could not at present
inquire, nor had any accounts for which he had moved yet
been refused to his motion. Happen what would, the
House was now placed in a situation in which, with a little
trouble, it could have the simplest statement of the national
finances that man could wish. The Hon. Member then
proceeded to remind his Hon. Friend that in the year 1821
be had proposed to make a reduction in the expenditure to
the amount of 4,280,0001. ; and that he had gone through
every branch of the public service, showing, item by item,
how that reduction could be snide in the then existing
establishments. That was not, however, all the reduction
which he at that time contemplated ; it was only the first
instalment which he demanded on behalf of the public.—
(Hear.) He showed to the House that, by a reduction of
the duties on candles, leather, salt, and soap, all which
duties had since been repealed, a reduction might be made
to the great relief of the consumers of those articles, and
to the amount of 3,000,0001., in the sums paid into the
Exchequer by the people. He had, after that reduction,
still 1,000,000/. remaining for the benefit of the people.
His Hon. Friend seemed to suppose that, as he then
called upon the Government to repeal the duties on ex-
ciseable articles, be was changing his ground in now
calling upon them to repeal the house and window tax ;
but he denied that there was any inconsistency in his
mode of proceeding, as he called upon the House to
repeal the house and window tax (as he called upon
it in 1820 to repeal the other taxes), because it was
an unfair, a partial, and an expensive tax.—(Loud cries
of " Hear.") Looking at the change in the currency, which
was just then conning into operation, he had advised the
House, in 1820, if it could not return to the establishments
of 1792, at least to assimilate their condition to that in
which they were at that time. He recollected well that
when Mr. Pitt and Lord Sidmouth proposed to increase
the salaries of different public officers, their reason was that
money was so depreciated th •t they could not live upon
the amount of their incomes. His argument ever since
1820 had been, that as we had now turned to cash pay-
ments, and so restored money to its former value, so we
ought a'so to reduce the salaries of public servants to tbeir
former amount.—(Hear.) It might be an unpleasant
necessity to come to such a determination ; but then, as
necessity had no law, so also had it no limit.—(Hear.) He
admitted that there had been a change in the mode of
taxation since 1820 ; but he was sorry to say there had
been no change in its amount, no relief given to the people
by a reduction of the sum which it extorted from their
pockets.—(Hear.) Besides, if the change in the currency
were taken into the account, the taxation of the country
was now one-third heavier than it was in 1820. For
instance, if the taxes were to be paid in corn, it would
take one third more quarters to pay them now than it
would have taken in 1820.—(Hear.) The point which he
wished to bring the House to was this—that though
Government had made great reductions, and though several
of their changes in taxation had been very beneficial, the
same amount as before was taken out of the pockets of the
people. Nov, he should wish to see the excise taken off
all exciseable articles ; he should also wish to see the duties
removed from all raw materials, as such duties were positive
impediments to industry; he should wish to see all mono-
polies extinguished, and pa, ticularly the corn monopoly—
(Hear)--because he was convinced that if those beneficial
changes were made, the country would bear its burdens with
comparatively little trouble.—(Hear.) He thought that
where a Government bad made a profligate grant, and
where it had allowed a man money for which he had
performed no service, the same distinction ought to be
drawn by Parliament which, in a similar case, would be
drawn by individuals in private life.—(Cheers.) Par.
liament ought, he contended, to look at every pension, and
to stop the issue of every farthing of public money which
was not merited by public service.—(Hear, hear.) If it
would only adopt that rule, the taxes would not produce
misery to the extent to which they did produce it, and
which exceeded the credibility of many gentlemen who
then heard him.—(Hear.) The doctrine which bad been
laid down that evening by his Hon. Friend would not
stand the test of examination. He maintained against his
Hon. Friend that all sinecures ought to be swept away.—
(Hear, hear.) He held, likewise, that the present Par-
liament had a right to abolish the pensions which were
granted under the authority of a former Parliament.—
(Great cheering.) Ought he, or ought any Member of
Parliament, to be called upon to destroy the comforts of
the widow and the fatherless, and to sell up their bedding,
seized for non-payment of assessed taxes, when the pro-
ceeds of those taxes, and he might say of those sales, went
to pay the pensions and sinecures of the rich and affluent ?

—(Continued cheering.) He protested against any such
doctrine, as not less mcnstrous for its absurdity than for
its injustice. The time was fast advancing, and even now
was, when an inquiry into the circumstances under which
every pension and every sinecure was granted must take
place.—(Cheers.) He should not be acting the part of a
good steward to the public if he allowed any inducement
to prevent him from instituting such an inquiry. He
cared not for the rank of the parties; the higher they
were the more strict should be the investigation ; the
more means they had at command the less regard should
be paid to their complaints and remonstrances.—(Cheers.)
He recollected well that on a former occasion, when this
subject was before Parliament, the Noble Lord opposite
had said, " I admit that the parties have no legal claims
to these pensions, but I ask the House to grant them on
the score of charity." To that assertion he had replied,
that " our charity should begin at home, and that we
should consider how many of our poorer countrymen were
without a home in order to pamper the pride and swell
the pensions of the junior members of the aristocracy.''—
(Hear, hear.) To these sentiments he still adhered, and

he would again repeat that all pensions and sinecures
ought to be swept away unless the holders could show

that they had deserved them by public services.—( Hear.)
He thought that the House had much to answer for in
allowing this session to go by without inve_•tigating into
this subject. He trusted that in the next session it would
show more respect to the rights of the people, and tbat it
would not be induced, either by a feeling of false delicacy
or by a deference to individuals of high rank, to sanction
grants which bad been improperly made by former
Parliaments.—(Hear, hear.)

Lord ALTHORP expressed his surprise at the observa-
tion of his Hen. Friend the Member for Middlesex that
no reduction had been made in the expenditure of the
country save what had been ffected by the reduction of
the charges upon the national debt. It was not easy to
follow his Hon. Friend through a statement of figures,
but be thought that if his Hon. Friend would only com-
pare the same things i❑ 1820 with the same things in
1833, he would find that reduction had been effected to
else amount named by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Rice). His
Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex had taken
53,000,000/. as the amount of our expenditure in 1820,
and 50,000,0001. as the amount of our expenditure at pre-
sent. Now, as be h .d not the papers of his Hon. Friend
before him, he could not pretend to say on what data
they were founded ; but he could not help thinking that
in the former year he bad taken the amount of our expen-
diture exclusive of the cost of collecting the revenue, and
that in the latter year he had taken the amount of our ex•
penditure including the same cost.—(Hear.) He would
state the amount of the expenditure of our establishments
in 1820, and also in' the present year; and, comparing
the two, it would appear that in 1820 they coot
22,087,000/., and in the present year 18,050,000/. ; so
that the difference between these two sums was the amount
of reduction effected in the interim. If he went to the votes
of supply, he got the same simple mode of comparison. In
1820 the votes of supply amounted to 19,600,7731. ; in
1821,18,358,6511. ; and, in 1833, to 14,623,2181. De-
duct this latter sum from the amount of the votes of supply
in the years 1820 and 1821, and you will get the amount
of reduction stated by his Hon. Friend.—(Hear.) His
Hon. Friend, the Member fur Middlesex, had that evening
used an argument respecting the reduction of taxation
which he (Lord Althorp) had beard him use before on
similar occasions. His Hon. Friend had said that if,
when taxes were taken off, the revenue, notwithstanding,
sprung up to its former amount, the pressure on the peo-
ple was not removed, inasmuch as they still paid, though
in another way, the same amount of taxation. Now, a
greater fallacy than this could not be well imagined, for
his Hon. Friend could not but be aware that when cer-
tain taxes were taken off, the relief which the people re-
ceived from that remission of tax ition enabled them to
consume a greater quantity of other taxed articles.—
(Hear.) He wished to correct an impression which his
Hon. Friend had endeavoured to make upon the House
under what he (Lord Althorp) conceived to be a complete
misunderstanding. His Hon. Friend had given the Go-
vernment credit for not waking any objection to his re-
turns about our expenditure. Now he (Lord Althorp)
would bc most happy to grant his Hon. Friend any re-
turns to establish the rase which he had just stated to the
House, if, indeed, there were any such returns, as soon
is his Hon. Friend would come forward to move for them.
His Hon. Friend had, to a certain extent, misrepresented,
though no doubt unintentionally, what he (Lord Althorp)
had sail on the subject of pensions. In some instances
he had said that the continuance of the pension was a mat-
ter of charity. He might be right or he might be wrong
on that point ; hut the present Government was undoubt-
-d:y disinterested on the occasion.—( Hear, hear.) These
pensions were not held by friends of the Government—
they were not given at the request of the friends of the
Governmeot—they were not, in one woe,', given by this
joveininent.—(Hear.) On the contrary, they were held
my persons who, in polities, were opposed to the Govern-

tnent.—(Hear.) Though he entirely concurred in the
doctrine that no pensions ought to be granted improperly,
and that no sinecures ought, on any account, to be per-
mitted in future, he was, nevertheless, unprepared to state
that where persons had had grants made to them by au-
thorities which, at the time, were competent, and now re-
lied upon them for subsistence, it was justifiable to come
forward now and revoke the grants and t ike them away
for the future.—(Hear.) That was the doctrine which
he had always held when out of office, and to that doc-
trine he adhered now that he was in office.—( Hear.)
Mr. BARING complained that the Noble Lord had not
yet brought forward the diplomatic and miscellaneous
estimates, although it was now the middle of July, and
those estimates should have been laid before the House in
the month of April, according to the usual practice, any
departure from which in this respect gentlemen who sup-
ported the Noble Lord were in the habit of censuring in
the strongest terms when they sat upon the opposition
side of the House. What reason the Noble Lord might
have in bis own mind for the delay, it was impossible to
say, but clearly there could be no Parliamentary ground
for a postponement, which was inimical to the public
interest, inasmuch as it caused such important subjec•s to
be disposed of by thin Houses. With respect to the Hon.
Nlember's proposal on the subject of sinecures and pen-
sions, be should like to know who would ever again
trust the country if the bargains which it made with in-
dividuals were to be set aside? At the same time lie was
always ready to vote against useless grants of the public
money, and if he were shown any places which were
overpaid, 'or any money which was given without service
in return, he should resist all such appropriations of
the funds of the state. Did the Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex forget that there had been a Committee cn the
salaries of public officers, of which he (Mr. Baring) was
chairman, and that it had reduced salaries considerably ?
In all the salaries paid by the Committee the Hon. Mem-
ber for Middlesex had concurred, with the exception of
the Lord Chancellor's salary, which he thought ton high.
Reductions in subordinate offices were left the Govern.
ment, and it was only fair to add, that they had been made.
His belief was, that public officers iu this country were
not overpaid, and lie was convinced of the bid economy
of cheap services, because, where officers, more especially
those functionaries charged with the administration of
justice, were ill-paid, they always contrived to pay them-
selves. Show him any part of the public expenditure
that could be safely reduced, and he would vote for re-
trenchment; but until some practical reductions were
pointed out, general declarations, such as those embodied
in the resolution, were merely a waste of the time of the
House, and of the character and honesty of its Members.
Mr. ROBINSON said that it was only the latter part
of the resolution that could give rise to discussion, the
principle of economy having been long since admitted.
Although he was not of opinion that the motion was at
all necessary, yet be thought the discussion would be
attended with advantage; inasmuch as it had afforded an
opportunity to the Hon. Secretary to the Treasury to
make out a case (as he had done most satisfactorily),
showing that the present Government had redeemed their
pledges of economy and retrenchment. With respect to
the question of sinecures, it would be better that a motion
should be brought forward on that subject in a separate
shape. He objected to a sweeping declaration that all
sinecures should be abolished, and could not subscribe to
the doctrine that in cases where the Legislature had deli-
berately ratified engagements, it was competent to sue.
ceeding Parliaments to set them aside without regard to
individual interests. He recommended the /Lin. Member
to leave out the latter part of his motion, in order that
the House might come to a unanimous vote on the first
portion of it.
S r G. PHILLIPS thought the Hon. Mover entitled to
the thanks of the House for having brought forward his
resolution, which had produced one of the clearest, most
convincing, and satisfactory speeches from the Hon. Se-
cretary to the Treasury. Such a triumphant statement
had afforded great gratification to him, after having endured
the misfortune and disgust, day after day, of hearing
unfounded, false, and scandalous allegations made, no doubt
in ignorance, by individu ils who declared their opinion
that Government had violated its pledges of economy and
retrenchment—that it had reduced no taxes, afforded no
relief to the people, and earned nothing but disgust and
contempt from the nation.
Sir R. PEEL objected to the resolution, because he
thought the truth which it contained too obvious to need
enforcement, and because he disliked to see individual
Members bringing forward, without the slightest neces.
sity, abstract propositions, about which there was no
dispute, and which tended to no practical result. He
thought it rather a weakening than an enforcement of the
obligation of economy (which all admitted to be indispen-
sable) to produce mere abstract resolutions on the subject,
as if the matter admitted of any doubt of dispute.
Gentlemen should not think to elude their duties with
respect to attention to details by unmeaning generalities
such as these. As the resolution conveyed no censure
upon Government, inasmuch as no particular tax was
assailed by it—in a word, because it led to no practical
result, he objected to it. He readily admitted that the
day for sinecures was gone by, and that as soon as
existing interests had terminated they should be abolished.
But he rested the abolition on this ground—that the
public having enabled the Crown to reward public
services by superannuations and pensions, sinecures were
no longer necessary.
Mr. O'DWYER said, if the resolution contained a
truism, why did the Right Hon. Baronet refuse to affirm
it ?—(A laugh.) Why negative a proposition which he
admitted to be true ?—(Sir R. Peel : I do no such thing.)
The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to inveigh ag,inst sine-
cures, and instanced, as a gross abuse in this way, the case
of Lord Clifton, who held a sinecure office of 1,700/.
a year in Ireland, and had never been called on even to
sign his name to a public document. _ .

Mr. RUTHVEN, in reply, complained of the imputa
tion cast by Sir G. Phillips on Members who opposed the
Government, and pressed for further re.renchment. It was
too much to assert that such Members were in the habit of
making false, scandalous, and unfounded statements.
Sir G. PHILLIPS had never insinuated that those Mem-
bers intended to state what they knew to be false ; they
were only mistaken in their view of the subject.
Mr. G. YOUNG had never, in the course of his short
Parliamentary experience, witnessed a more manifest and
glaring absurdity than the present lengthy statement and
discussion of an admitted truism displayed. It was not
merely absurd, but pernicious, that the time of the House
should be so occupied, especially at this late period of the
session. For his own part, be should decline to vote at
all on the question, not from indifference to the proposition,
but through a conviction of its inutility.
The House then divided—
For Mr. Ruthven's motion BB
Against it
Majority against Ministers 9
CORPORATION OF GALWAY

On the motion of Mr. BLAKE, a return was ordered

" of the landed or other estates, ecclesiastical benefices, to
which there is a right of presentation, moneys, and other
properties, specifying particularly the full amount or an-
nual value of each, at the disposal of, or by royal grant,
charter, custom, prescription, or otherwise, vested in the
corporation of Galway ; setting forth the names and abodes
of all tenants, lessees, beneficiaries, and other persons de-
riving any estate, interest, income, or emolument, under
or from said corporation: also, an account of all moneys
levied or received by said corporation in each year since
the year 1800, by right or claim of any toll, custom, duty,
murage, pontage, or any other demand, with the names
of all persons concerned in the receipt and appropriation
thereof, and the names of those who have beenpaidthearned-
from, the amount paid, and for what consideration in each
particular case: also, a return of all lands, rights,
properties of any description, which have been sold, mort-
gaged, or alienated by said corporation."

CORPORATION OF CASHEL.
On the motion of Mr. ROE, a return was ordered " of
the names of the persons composing the present Corpora-
tion of Cashel, when each person was admitted a member
of it, and the corporate office he now holds ; specifyiag
such as have registered their votes under the Reform
Act; also a return of the estates belonging to the said
Corporation, under what charter each is derived, by whom
they are now held, and by what tenure, with the names
of the granting parties thereto, and to whom granted,
term of years, number of acres, and yearly rent, each lease
is actually for ; together with a return of whatever tolls,
turnpike or customs, belong to the said corporation, their
yearly amount, and how disposed of; also an account of
to what uses, corporate or otherwise, the rents and re-
venues of said corporation have been expended, stating the
terns for the year 1832, up to the 29th of last September."