The Sun.
London, England, 1846-01-29 00:00:00

URSDAY EVENING, JANUARY 29, I t-44 6.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Wednesday, Jan. 28.

RAILWAYS (STANDING ORDERS).

Mr. GISBORNE (in continuation from our Afternoon Edition
of yesterday) said—And yet the cases which came before
even that great court of appeal, were decidedly of inferior
importance in point of interest to the cases which came be-
fore the Standing Orders' Committee. Even the practitioners in
the Committee were ignorant of the laws which guided their deci-
sions ; and how could it be expected that the country would respect
then, of his motion was to give the
their judgments ? The object,
people an opportunity of having the reasons of the decisions of the
Committee properly and fully stated, for at present it was a most
anomalous and unheard-of tribunal. (Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") Of course there had lately been a vast improvement in
it. but at present, by reason of its seeress', a man was forced to part
with his property without the slightest reason being assigned by the
Committee. He could promise the House, that if they agreed to his
motion the country generally, and those persons especially composing
what was called " the railway world," would be highly satisfied.
There was one very great objection in the constitution of the Stand-
ing Orders' Cominittee which he wished to redress,-and that was the
decision of the Committee being given in secret. Not a syllable was
allowed to be heard, unless by stealth, of the decision of these silent
tribunals. He knew that the present way in which these Committees
were conducted had been a cause of great dissatisfaction to those who
were concerned in the carrying out ofrailwayschemes. Thebad odour
in which the Standing Orders' Committee were held, might be easily
dissipated if one counsel on eacti side were allowed the opportunity
of being heard. By this means the suspicions which might attach
to the decision of the Committee would be effectually destroyed.
He felt satisfied that the Standing Orders' Committee on many oc-
casions would gladly avail themselves of the assistance of counsel
in stating the various points of the case en which they had to
adjudicate. It might, on the other hand, be argued,
that if the decisions of these Committees were given in
public it would lead to a great laxity in the application of the stand-
ing orders ; but he would maintain that, even if the stringent appli-
catien of the standing orders were relaxed, the issue would finally
lead to the foundation of a system on a firmer and more substantial
basis. In conclusion, he would only express the gratification he
should feel if the House thought proper to adopt the motions he had
proposed.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said that he considered the
motion of the Hon. Gentleman, if allowed to pass, would have a
very injurious effect on the interests of the proprietors of land
through whose property the lines of railway would pass. If counsel
were to be admitted to be heard before the Standing Orders' Com-
mittee it would entail a considerable unnecessary expense on those
whose property was interfered with, which would be a very great
hardship for them. It was well known that the employment of
counsel in railway matters was always attended with a very consi-
derable expense. He considered that the opinions which had been
broached by the Honourable Gentleman opposite would
be entertained by very few Members of the House.
He said, under these circumstances, be would oppose any proposition
for introducing counsel into the Standing Orders' Committee, as it
was contrary to the opinion of that tribunal, and would impose a vast
expense on persons whose Bills should be opposed in Committee.
Mr. GISBORNE did not conceive that the introduction of counsel
into the Standing Orders' Committee would in any manner remove any
suspicions that might be attached to their decisions. They might be
wrong in fact, but they w ere right in point of feeling, and he
thought -they ought to alter the present Standing Orders' Com-
mittee, and was sorry that the motion was resisted.
Mr STRUTT said that he would make one observation in reply.
He would just remark that the Committees on Standing Orders were of
a nature perfectly distinct from any other Committees, and he hoped
the House would excuse him, while he showed they were different.
Their business was transacted in private, the same as other Commit-
tees. The standing orders allowed that if the parties could show
that they had been misled, and had not been guilty of culpable
neglect, then the standing orders might be dispensed with ; but, on the
contrary, should they have been guilty of such neglect the standing or-
ders should be enforced. The standing orders also stated that the datum
line should be commenced from some certain fixed point, which, in the
case of the railway mentioned by the Hon. Member, had not been
complied with. The tendency of the Hon. Member's motion would
be that of placing the Standing Orders' Committee and the Committee
on Private Bills in opposition to each other. He therefore felt under
the necessity of opposing the motion of his Honourable Friend.
Mr. GISBORNE observed, in reply, that in the case which he
adverted to he did not complain of the decision which the Com-
mittee arrived at—he merely brought it forward as a case which had
fallen under his own observation. He would not, however, as he
saw the feeling of the House, press his motion, and he would con-
sequently beg leave to withdraw it.
The motion was then withdrawn.
Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petition from the Lancaster and
Carlisle Railway Company.
Mr. WODEHOUSE moved for returns made by Mr. Rickman for a
period of ninety-one years, showing the ratio which highway rates,
poor-rates, and county rates, bore to the public expenditure.
Mr. ETWALL gave notice that he would move for a Select Com-
mittee, on the 10th of February, to inquire into the administration of
the poor-law in the Andover Union, and as to how that union has
been managed.
PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion that the Public Works (Ireland) Bill should be
read a second time,
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD wished to know from the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite whether it was the intention of Govern-
ment to bring in a Bill to amend the system of valuation in Ireland ?
Sir* T. FREMANTLE intimated his Intention to bring in a Bill
for that purpose.
Mr. HUME objected to the Bill altogether. He defied any man
to say, with that Bill before him, what the law woald be. He
thought they were come to that time of day when legislation should
be a little intelligible. Everything should be as clear as possible;
and he submitted that it was impossible to understand the present
Bill on these grounds; therefore he should oppose the Bill.
Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE thought, that when extensive altera-
tions were proposed in any law, that the law should be consolidated.
The simple object of the present Bill was merely to obtain a grant
of money. There were certainly one or two alterations proposed,
but they did not effect the principle of the law; merely the details.
The first three pages of the Bill were occupied with mere recital, and
the rest with the proposed alterations, which did not affect the law
already existing.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the principle of the law was not
affected by the present Bill. That was only a particular Act of Par-
liament regulating another particular Act. He did not intend to oppose
it, though he reserved to himself the right of making some alterations
in the Bill when it went into Committee. He hoped, however, that
the Government would not suppose that they had done more than
discharge a part of their duty in bringing forward the present mea-
sure. It was impossible to ever-estimate the distressing state of
things which at present existed in that country. They could not
conceal from themselves the fact that, in three or four weeks a vast
number of the popalation would be subjected to the horrors of famine.
The Government, therefore, were quite right in urging on the present
measure, for it woald help to alleviate, even to a small extent,
the miseries which were impending.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.")
He would, therefore, give his support to the measure under the pro-
test that the Government was not to consider that they were doing
all that was necessary for Ireland in her present melancholy state.
Sir ROBERT FERGUSON would support the general bearings of
the Bill, but he would, when the provisions of that measure came
before the House, suggest some amendments. He thought that the
sth and 6th clauses required some amendment. These clauses referred
to the sum to be expended on public works, and he was of opinion
that the Bth clause gave sufficient powers.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD would beg to express his dissent
to the 3d clause. Itprovided that two justices and three cess payers
should be sufficient to carry out the powers of that clause. The
Hon. Gentleman should remember the power of justices in appointing
the cess payers who were to sit with them, and how very partially
they might act on that power.
Sir H. W. BARRON rose to call the attention of the Bight Hon.
Baronet opposite, and of the Government in Ireland, to the fact that
the paltry sum of 50,0001. could not, under existing circumstances,
tend in any great degree to relieve the distress of the people of
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He believed the commission that was
now sitting in Dublin had calculated that for three months in the pre-
sent year there would be feu r millions of people unemployed . He had no
wish to exaggerate the amount of distress, but he had seen reason to
believe that this calculation was rather under than over the mark.
What, then, would be this 50,0001. divided amongst four millions of
people? Why, it would be exactly threepence a head for three
months.—(llear, hear.) And this was the sort of employment
they were going to give the people of Ireland to enable
them to support themselves, their children and families, for a period
of three months.—(Hear, hear.) It would be like a drop of water
to the sea. The Government ought to come forward more liberally,
with the ample means they had at their command and give the
people of Ireland employment, and not charity. That was the great
principle which ought to guide all Governments in their legislation,
no matter whether they were despotic or monarchical.—(Hear, hear.)
The pressing calamity which had fallen upon the land called for
active and urgent measures on the part of the Government. It was
no comrsan case, that had fallen upon mere trade in some particular
town or district. It was the visitation of an all-wise Providence that was
impending over the nation, and no ordinary or common measures would
avert it. The people of Ireland did not want charity; they wanted
employment, and it was in the power of Government to give it them,
and he was sure the landed interest would come forward and assist
them in promoting public works. In his part of the country several
of the landholders had already come forward to give
employment to their fellow-men, and he had no
doubt they would come forward in large numbers in ether parts of
the country. There was plenty of employment for them, but the
landed interest of this country was so poor that with-
out the aid, the liberal aid, of the Government, they
could not distribute it amongst the people.—(Hear, hear.)
It had been stated both in that House and elsewhere, by Members
whom he regretted not to see in their places, that England ought to
be taxed for the benefit of Ireland. Tax the English people ! Why,
did not the Irish people bear their fair proportion of the taxes of the
whole kingdom ? Did they not pay enormous Excise and other
duties ? Did not the landed proprietors of Ireland, resident in this
country, pay their share of the income-tax out of the money de-
rived from their estates ? And had not the Chancellor of the
Exchequer stated that the Irish people were taxed more
than any other people on the face of the earth ? He (Sir H.
W. Barron) believed that the people of that unhappy country
were taxed more in proportion to their means than the inhabitants of
any other country in Europe. Ireland did not ask for charity, but
for her fair share of the taxes realised, and to be considered and
treated as a portion of the kingdom. If they did not give them their
fair Share of the taxes, in heaven's name let them have' the manage-
ment of their own affairs, and the levying of their own taxes. Let
them not delude themselves with the belief that this measure would
employ the people of Ireland. Before many weeks had passed they
would have to adopt other and more enlarged measures to alleviate
the sufferings of the people.
Mr. MONCKTON MILNES considered that the measure was
quite inadequate to meet the impending evil of famine,
and the consequent sufferings of the people.—(Hear, hear.)
He considered that the evil of the potato disease should have been
met in a totally different manner. The landed proprietors of Ireland
should go and reside amidst their unhappy tenantry and spend there
every shilling they had, and if they had no money it was their duty to
borrow it. He would not except dukes and other noblemen from doing
this, as it was every man's duty to do all in his power
to alleviate the sufferings of the people of Ireland. He
was sure the House of Commons would readily adopt 'any measure
which should have for its ohject the improvement of the condition
of that people, and to save them from the sufferings which the potato
disease threatened.
Mr. F. FRENCH did not object to the measure, and contended
that the proprietors of the sell ought, for their own sakes, to take
steps to alleviate all the impending evil which he was satisfied they
would do if facilities were given to them.
Colonel CONOLLY was very happy to find that the people of Ire-
land were to have this money on loan at a very reasonable interest.
It was what ho had been striving for for years.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed
to-morrow.