The Sun.
London, England, 1846-08-04 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The 'report upon the votes in Coin►nittee of Supply
was then brought up, anti confirmed.
THE ARMY.

On the. SPEAKER reading the order of the day for
Army Estimates,
Captain LAYARI) rose to move that an humble
ddress be presented to her Majesty, praying that she
gill be graciously pleased. to direct inquiry to be made;
how far the reduction of their period of service in the
army from the present unlimited term would tend to
promote a better class of • British soldiers, decrease
desertion, and thus add to the efficiency of the army. In
bringing this Motion under the consideration of the
House, the Hon. and Gallant Member said the House
must at once see that !the subject was one of the very
greatest importance, and he must ask them to grant him
that which it did on a former occasion ; that was to
say; its kind attention and indulgence—an attention
which he was sure was deserving of the case itself—
(Hear, hear)—and an indulgence which he trusted
would be granted, and which would be wanted, from the
weakness. of the advocate. After a most deliberate in
quiry into the,subject, he had formed the opinion that a
limited service in the army would greatly benefit the
country and the army. It would have the effect of giving
to the army a better description of men to perform those
duties Which were entrusted to soldiers, and would
remove in a great measure the quantity of crime which
he regretted to say was committed by those to whom the
standards of our army were entrusted. He contended
that by limiting the numbers of years of enlistment the
country would have a better description of men; and that
much of the crime of winch the army was at present.
guilty, and the •existence of which he would be able to
[,rove, would be limited to a very great extent. He
thought he should do wisely by bringiug forward the
obieyable dividing it iuto different
to show the House
heads subject under discussion in the same way that he did on
afofis ; duelmeroccafisrisot,n;htehashld i
that was,u
bow unpopular the present system was in the country;
and how unpopular it was also with the soldiers. In
the second place, he, should be able to show
tliehi the impolicy o: the present system. 'He would
show them that the eresent system, led to fearful crime
and. an. immense amount-6f punishment. Ile, ould then
bribg forward his arguments in the strongest manlier in
which be believed• it could-bp brought forward, and, with
the indulgence of the House, he hoped lie should be able to
prove his case successfully. He believed he should be
able to show that the change he proposed, would be of
great benefit to the country,•while a great saving in ex-
penditure would be gained. They should remember the
great extent of territory they had, and the small force in
comparison to that territory which they had at their
disposal. They had, as had been stated on a
preVious evening, forty-nine colonies, and a territory
which,' but recently, in the East Indies had been extended
to the banks of the Sutlej, and they had but 120,000 men to
protect it. The change be proposed, therefore, was, one
entitled to their most serious consideration. He would be
able to show, from returns he had in his possession, and
other information he had received, the alarming preva-
lence of crime in the army. He had received a return
of the deserters from the army in Great Britain, Ireland,
spittle colonies during the three years ; that was in
1842, 1843, and 1844. In Canada the deserters during
these three years was 735, of whom 193 were retaken or
rejoined. In Great Britain during the same time the
number of deserters was 5,208, of whom 3,286 were re-
taken or rejoined ; and in Ireland the number was 1,594,
.of whom 1,159 were retaken or rejoined. Making the
total number of deserters in those three years 7,537, of
whom 4,638 were retaken. and leaving 2,899 not ac-
counted for; or a loss of about 1,000 men a year.
The expense of these deserters to the country from 1843
to 1845 had been 71.5201. By a return moved for by the
Hon. Member for Montrose, with reference to corporal
punishment inflicted in the army during the same period,
it appeared that there were 3,355 persons upon whom cor-
poral punishment had been inflicted.. He thought the clues•
tern of corporal punishment was one deserving of con-
sideration, and should be removed, if possible; but he
felt assured that flogging could not be removed while
the present term of enlistment was adhered to. Within
three years there had been 28,190 men in the British
army who had suffered imprisonment. He did not
believe that could be a good system which produced
such effects. Many medical men had written books
upon the subject whieh • would convince any Hon.
Member of the necessity of some change in the law of
enlistment. Mr. Marshall had said, in a work which he
hi,d written and dedicated to Sir Henry Hardinge, that
in a moral point of view it was politic to enlist men for
a long period at an early age, because at that age persons
were apt to figure to themselves a thousand instances of
h ,nour and glory in which-they were to become sharers,
but who were doomed to disappointment. In the present
condition of the army, continued the Gallant Member,
he defied Any person to point out an instance in which
any respectable tradesman or farmer would wish his son
to enlist in the army:' 'He would have to spend all the
t of his years in the service of his country. and then
he re Aarded with a miserable pension of 6d. a day,
which was barely auffitient to keep him out of the work-
house. To show the opinion entertained in the army
against the service, the Gallant Member proceeded to
quote the case of George...UW..of the 67.thi'who stated.
Olt he. %murderer ..tit; a- young woman of the
name of Eliza Grimwood, who had been murdered at; a
intblic-hQtact tbeteiihbourhOVl Oa his -extuoillee`

tion before the magistrate, he said he had accused him-
self for the purpose of getting out of the service. He
did not !time t" sey that he was a proetl ssldier, on the
confrere-, he bsiieeed him to be the very revere. He
merely beseght the c.;se forward to show ghat a man
w•ttl,l itielerge in etelor to ,et cut of the service. He
then referred to the case of a private in the 60th Regi-
meet of eavalr) who had attempted to shoot him-
self in going off sentry. These were not solitary
instances on the injurious effects of the present system.
Sir H. Hardinge, had stated in evidence before the Com-
missioners on the subject of corporal punishment, that
soldiers often maimed themselves to obtain their dis-
charge. Tie had stated last year that the suicides in the
cavalry amounted to one in twenty of the whole number
of deaths. That statement had been made upon the
authority of Mr. Marshall, the inspector of hospitals,
and he did not think there was a better authority on
the subject. He had made application to the Secretary-
' at-War ftir a return of the number of suicides committed
in the army ; but he had been informed that the return
' could not be .t.ivell, because the suieides were not kept
distieet from the aevidents. He thought, however,
suce returns sheltie. he kept eel-arise, He
Ilioagl4 tle,t if soeli re;nrils wore tend=, it weidel be
! shoWn that it ;rester number oil stiieid, s took place in
the army than among any4qual number of men in a dif-
ferent positi,,n.
Colonel Ft CC—All the eilicides which took place did
not take place upon that account.
Captain LAYAIM did not suppose that they were
all traceable to that cause, but he should be happy to be
shown to he incoirect in the present instance. A great
number of suicides did take place, and. it was but fair to
supp ,se that they arose from that cause, seeing the great
number of punishments and desertlene which annually
Gook place. He believed that the Bight Hon. Baronet
the Secretary-at-War himself would net like to he tied
down for life to one employment, or to be compelled
during that term to perform the irksome duties con-
nected with the army.—(Laughter.) He thought that if
arty person had a right to enlist the Chancellor of the
Exchteatier, he had a perfect right to do so—(Laughter)
—and believed he should do so before he had finished his
statement. He thought that no person should be en-
listed for more than ten years, after which period he
should receive a sum equal to half his pay ; and that
after a period of six months if he enlisted attain in that
regiment,'-or into any other regiment, he should be al-
lowed to enlist For eleven years, thus making a total of
.twenty-one years' service. It was quite possible that a
soldier might be happy in one regiment while he was
perfectly miserable in another; he would not propose,
therefore, to confine the soldier entirely to one regiment.
As an instance of the difference of regiment he would
'all the attention of the House to the 12th Lancers,
commanded by Colonel Stowell, in which regiment
there was not a man who had been flogged.—(Cheers.)
If', after their ten years had expired, they should enlist
,igain for eleven years, they should be entitled to their
proper retiring allowance of 10d. per day. He knew
teat he should be informed of the difficulties in
ease of any regiment being abroad, and any number of
men claiming their discharge at the same time; but re-
wards could be held out, and quite sufficient inducements
elven to them to remain. They might be allowed to go
to India, where, from all the returns he had seen, most
:addiers who had been there volunteered to return. He
knew he should be told that they had limited service be-
t', ,re. Ile was aware of that; but it was altered by Lord
I till in 1829. The present system was most unjust, for
utter ten years' actual service, with two distinguishing
marks of good conduct, they required a man to pay more
eor his 'discharge than he originally received for going to
them. After giving men 4/. and a few shillings to come
to them, and after vetting ten or twelve years' service
out of him, they required him to pay 51. How could they
eeptee men who had any prospsctot work to go into the
army with the comfortable prospect of twenty-five years'
ervica, and then 6d. per day to retire upon ?
.1.11 reports on the subject agreed that the army was
wade of the very worst materials, and it had been found
that the soldier was so placed as absolutely to induce
him to commit many acts which caused him to be igno-
miniously punished. lie wished to call attention to the
iinmen,e amount of duty which had to be performed by
emei men in the army. The good men had the trouble
doing the duty of the refractory, and of punishintt
tliero when in disgrace. If they knew what was right
erel just they could not but admit that it was not right
for any Government to drive a harsh and cruel bargain
with these poor men.—(Hear, hear.) It was their duty
to encourage them, and to give them gond treatment to
laduce them to enter and remain voluntarily in the
:limy. All the pc•rsnrs who had ever tired the expe-
rlment. of rearultina- fur a limited period agreed that it
a ,a.; goite ~necessful, and it was tried wi.h considerable
:-access daring the American war. In the year 1806
'-fr. 117)111:arn proposed enlistment for limited periods,
eed wish. d that the 21 years should be divided into
etree tertods, at the end of each 'of which
the soL:er should.be entitled to receive his discharge ;
Ned after a series of the whole three periods that he
seetild he entitled to be discharged with a pension of Is.
per day for life. The measure proposed was carried in
tBO6, hut was afterwards effectually annulled by an
eiteration in the regulations of the army. Dr. Jackson
letcl also written upon the economy of the army, and he
was,of opinion that enlistment for an unlimited period
was prejudicial to the soldier, and that the army would
t)e in a mush better state if soldiers were enlisted for
limited period. Sir H. Wilson, in 1804, wrote upon the
subject, and he expresed his surprise that we should
oontinue to retain a system which had been discarded
.by other nations as unpolluted. In Austria they en-
listed for eight years, in India for three, and various
eeriods in other cluntries -- not one country but England
laving unlimited enlistment in its army. ' The opinion
of Sir 11. Hardinge was in favour of allowing men te
eurchase their discharge Peter a period of service, ane
,he plan, on being tried, was found to operate
mest beneficially. He, however, objected to the
,rinciple, for money was in that case allowed to be the
'gent by which the soldier was to receive his liberty.
illere were many and very great defects in their mili •
' tart' system, but he belih vad that they were on the point
laf e great alteration. lie would conclude by moving
,l'at an humble address be presented to her Majesty,
raying that she will be graciously pleased to take into
her consideration, hew far a reduction of the period
would tend to improve the recruiting system, diminish
eest..rtion, and tend to the better protection of the service.
Mr. F. MAULE wished to say a few words upon this
eery important questisn. His Hon. Friend had argued
the question as if the Government had prejudice or feel-
ing against the so :tier. He hed said that the late Go- .
vc,rnment had is in contemplation to make some serious
' alteration on this subject, and it was a subject of the
mutt important nature. Ile (Mr. F. Maule) did not
wej-i to give any decided opinion on one side or the
ether. His Hon. Friend had alluded to the number of
desertions which were shown to take place by the re-
terns, as being caused by the knowledge of being en-
Fsted for an unlimited period. He would ask the Hon.
Member at what period these desertions took place.
They took place the first or second year,
hen the mind of the soldier was acted upon by a dislike
.t the rough tasks he bad to perform ; but they in a
:short time almost invariably returned to their duty, and
gave themselves up to their former engagement. He
assured the Hon. and Gallant Member that from his ex-
:e-rience, he should know that those concerned in the
aanagernent of the army did all in their power to make
iSle position of the soldier comfortable, and be (Mr. F.
..isele) did not see that the Hon. Member had any right
Le sssurne that all the suicides which took place in the
•-•s arose from the distaste ter a permanent enlistment.
',.,-• enlistment certainly took place for an unlitnitee
-vied. but the army allowed a graduated scale, and not
::. very unjustly graduated scale, of means of escape.
After ten years service, the price wait 211. in the cavalry,
seal 15/. in the infantry, and that was without any die-
'eta; wishing marks of good conduct. Any distinguishing
marks of good conduct, to the number of two or more,
would at the end of 21 years entitle the soldier to his
discharge free. In the cavalry, under the same circum-
seances, the'price seas only 5/. •
-
Captain I, AYARD—He cannot claim his discharge.
Mr. F. MAULE—Much had been done by the late
Government for the benefit of the army. Schools had
been established for the children of soldiers, and libra-
ries had been established, in which there were 30,000 or

40,000 volumes. These and other measures had been
taken to confer on the soldier the advantages of a citizen,
:Ind he denied that ho ever ceased to be a citizen. With
respect to the proposition of his Noble and Gallant
Friend, as to the limitation of the service, it should be
remembered that there were 24,000 soldiers in the West
Indies, and 31,000 in the colonies, making a total of
.54,000 who served but for 14 years. He thought,
therefor?, in consideration of all these circumstances,
that the House would not entertain the proposition of
the Noble and Gallant Gentleman.—(Bear.)
Sir DE LACY EVANS—WhiIe agreeing fully in
what had been stated with respect to the beneficial
measures of Government towards the army, he could
not consider the proposition of the Gallen Gentleman
beset with such difficulties as was supposed. With re-
spect to the West Indies, according to the Mutiny Act,
the power vested in the Governors of the colonies ren-
dered any apprehensions on that head groundless.. He
believed, moreover, that there was no disposition to
leave the English army. There was also an objection
to be urged againt the argument of the Hon. Gentle-
man who had last addressed the House, with respect to
the power in the commanding officer to allow a soldier
to return, for it would be attended with great difficulty.
He would, therefore, give his support to the motion.
4r. B. OSBORNE was glad to hear the remarks
any
of the Secretary•at-War, not because he had urged
it
va!id objections to the propositions, but because
showed that the subject was to be an open question.
When there was so much work about the abolition of
punishment by death, that .very punishment was ren-
dered necessary by the system adopted in; the army.
—(Hear, hear.) In 1799te ihey were obliged to press
felons into their service. If they wanted a better article
they should pay more for it, and the evil complained of
was to be remedied by getting a better class of men to
enteras their troops. He trusted, therefore, that those
who had the interests of the country at heart would
stand up in their places in the House, and vote for
the better payment of soldiers. The first who
brought forward this subject was the great Lord Ches-
terfield, who submitted a motion on this matter in 1741,
and in 1749 the subject was revived by Mr. Wyndham.
He was prepared to show from official documents that
the hardships of the soldiers' situation were not ex-
avgerated. From an official document of Sir James
M'Gregor some years ago, it appeared that out of 680
men under his care, the deaths of nearly one in twenty
were caused by suicide. In a book, written by Dr.
Reid, it was remarked the present system naturally en-
dured that mental depression which caused suicide.
'here were more lunatics from the army than from any
other class, and therefore :he inference was very justly
drawn. A youth of eighteen, seduced into the army in a
stare of drunkenness, would become so disgusted when
sober at the terra—of servitude before him as to fell
into that state of mental clepression.whia wburdlead to
suicide.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the proposition
of 4s9iik‘us -Yrivfici-wair 1101,..914 Quiro„ hiutiewr 4104

that it was also more economical. In 1839 there were'
2,110 suffered punishment for desertion. Now let them
leek at the expense of these desertions, and they would
be convinced of the truth of what he advanced. Unless
they brought public opinion to bear upon the Horse
Guards, they must not expect any salutary reforms in
the British army. lie recollected when 1,900 lashes
was net an unusual punn-hment, and it was considered
a great relaxation of rigour when the number was re-
duced to 1,250. Some idea might be formed of the degree
to which this system hsel taken root in the country, when
he stated that, in 1811, the proprietor of a newspaper
was mulcted in the sum of 2001. for a denunciation of
this cruelty. He would conclude by calling upon the
Noble Lord to sienalise his Government by echoing the
sentiments of Mr. Wyndham, and abolish this sangui-
nary system.
Captain LINDSAY thought if the normal schools
were carried out they would find that desertions and
crime would be considerably decreased in the army.
There was this feeling in the army, that they had
nothing to look forward to but a miserable pension at
the expiration of twenty-five years, and so long as that
state of things prevailed they could not expect any
change in the present condition of the army. Among a
number of instances, he could state that in his own bat-
talion a number of the men mode their greatest com-
plaint th.- length of service. He thought that if educa-
tion and religion were more diffused among the army
the result would exceed their expectations, and the evils
which followed the present system would he put an
end to.
Mr. HUME said that the limitation of the service
wassa. subject which he had long advocated. By that
in( ails good men would he secured, and desertion would
he lessened. If the report made by the general officers
on the subject was read Hon. Members would see that
those who must have the greatest regard to the efficiency
of military discipline were advocates of a limited service.
His own opinion of mankind was, that if they had their
compacts attended to,, and were treated kindly, they
would not be disposed to indulge in crime. He entirely
supported the motion of his Hon. Friend, for the amount
of crime which resulted from the present treatment of the
military was a discredit to the nation. He recollected
when 1000 lashes was a common punishment, and he con-
sidered that the adoption of milder treatment had been
attended with the most beneficial results. With regard
to normal schools, he thought they should not be con-
fined to the army, but extended to the whole country.
Mr. BERNAL hoped that his Honourable Friend
would not press his motion to a division. He thought
the Government should have time to investigate the
subject. This was only elle part of a general system,
and he was of opinion that, as the whole subject of
military discipline was pressed upon the Government
by the country, time should be allowed them to
fame a measure to meet the evils. All the criminal re-
forms which were made were only brought about by
long deliberation. Forty years ago he believed a man
was hung only for cutting down a cherry-tree. The
criminal law had since undergone great amelioration.Wi th
regard to military diScipline, he thought that the same
caution should be observed, and nothing attempted with-
out careful deliberation. With regard to the questioe
of economy, he thought if they wished to improve the
condition of the army, some expense would be found to
be absolutely necessary.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought the matters which hail
been brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Bernal) were of national importance, and hoped they
would be considered by the Government. It was true
that the Government had been but a short time in office ;
honieVer, he expected great change would be made be
fore next session.. He thought seven years, as a period
enlistment, was long enough ; and after that time was
out he believed the men might be induced to enlist for
the next eleven years by a bounty. All the changes
had been advocated on the ground of increased pay.
Now, in looking to the expenses of the army, he found
that a cavalry soldier received 8s 9d. a week, a soldier
in the guards Bs. 2d., and in the line 7s. 7d.; this amount
of wages was aided by several perquisites and allowances.
in looking into the extracts, he found 35,000/. as a re-
ward for good service, and 3,000/. in lieu of beer, to
the troops at home. Much might be done for the army
by internal improvements, for far too much power was
sllowed to the non-commissioned officers, and much lay
in the power of the superior officers, if they would
exert them selves for the good of the men.
Colonel J. WOOD said, for the non-commissioned
officers, that no class in the army exercised their au-
thority with more forbearance. They staid in the same
room, and slept in the same room ; and it was necessary
!‘) take care that their authority should not be infringed
upon. They had no power to inflict punishment. Very
differently were they situated in the French army, where
the corporal sod the sergeant each had the power of
sentencing to imprisonment; a sentence which could not
be commuted without reference to Me colonel of the
regiment. -As for the changes proposed in the period of
enlistment, he had hopes that it might produce great
advantages.
Colonel SIBTHORP said, that knowing the army and
considering its history, he thought little or no change
was necessary. Reform was a word which, he must say.
ha did not like—s(Laughter)---and he said again that
little or nothing was necessary for effecting any desired
improvement. The House ought to recollect that offi-
cars, though officers, were yet men; they had their
failings, no doubt, but order and discipline was required
in a bony of men like the army. He begged, then, that
the House would leave subject- in the hands of oni
-so able to deal with it as the Noble Duke at the head of
that department. He begged they would, leave to. offi-
cers in, the army, the. army, and to naval officers the
navy, just as they had their Lord Chancellor, whom
they reliTred to as an authority in law. The army was
long well, and it ought to be let alone ; the state of
shish was such as to astonish the foreigners who came
into the country.
Mr. 11. CURTEIS said he regretted exceedingly or,
ending that he had come to town in vain that evening,
e-hen the Learned Doctor below him (Dr. Bowring)
put off his motion, which it was certainly his intention:
to have supported. He bad for twenty years advo-
cated the abolition of flogging in the army, and he was
glad to see others coming over to the same i•pinion.
would support the motion of the Gallant Captain, and hi,
mast tell that Gallant Gentleman that when he (Mr.
Curteis) was at the Horse Guards, he should allow hin.
to remain no longer a captain ; he would make him a
eolonel.—(Loud laughter.) He would not begrudge
city expense which could contribute to the ad.
vantage, and the improved condition of the army.
It would give great satisfaction to the country to learn
the way in which the question had that night been taken
up by military men ; and he hoped the Government
would take the matter into its most serious consideration.
After a few remarks from Captain LAYARD, the
motion was withdrawn.
INQUEST AT HOUNSLOW.
Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to make a few remarks in
reference to certain proceedings going on elsewhere,
while he intimated the postponement of the motion.
The matter to which he referred was the proceedings at
Hounslow. Several writers in the newspaper press had
attacked the gallant colonel of the regiment for the
flogging of the man on whom the coroner's inquest is at
present sitting. Now he (Mr. Osborne) begged leave to
say that that gallant officer had no more to do with the
death of that man than the humble individual who ne,
addressee' them. Nay, so 'indent was the feeling
against Colonel Whyte, that some papers had adv. sated
his murder by the troops under his command. The Hon.
Gentleman, the Member for Coventry, had to-night
nade use of these newspaper reports, and had referred
o the-evidence of a witless who had been examined,
but who was a very disreputable character, and had been
euilty several times of gross insubordination, which
elided in his being flogged ; not for crying out " Hallos
Sergeant," as he had asserted.—(Hear, hear) Colond
Whyte was a most excellent soldier, the son of a country
gentleman, and he felt extremely hurt and annoyed
at the manner in which he had been assailed,
There was not a day but what he was receiving anony-
mous' and threatening letters on the qliestion. In stating
that he would not presS his motion at present, he could
not avoid offering this defence of a gallant and much
misrepresented officer.
Colonel PEEL felt thankful to the Hon. Member for
the vindication he had made of Colonel Whyte. He
had read over every atom of the evidence taken before
the court-martial, and, he felt justified in defending him
from the aspersions cast upon him. He (Colonel Peel;
believed him to be one of the best officers in the army.
With regard to the private's evidence, which had
been referred to, that of Matthewson ; he was one of the
worst conducted men in the whole regiment, and had
previous to the occasion on which he received punish-
ment, been forgiven for one or two gross instances of
misconduct and insubordination. (The Hon. and Gal
lint Gentleman read a short statement to this effect.) _
Mr. FOX MAULE suggested that until the result o
the coroner's inquest was known, it was rather
prema-
ture to enter into a discussion of the
question.
which he
hVhadbeen WILLIAMSL
ed
when examined on
the coroner's inquest, which nyhestmateadnnteorthine
as
Rouse what the man hadie statelat attacked. kurprisehdad a
only
believedhad shadtat stated ewna s
true,
faith-
fully reported.
s
why did not the o
If
f whatfficers contradict it at the time?
Had they any explanatio .
then to make, that was the time
hat had then taken
for them to do ; and they would have been published
along with the man's evidence.
wh witness
he
place showed the necessity of a complete reform in the
whole system.
Mr. MONTAGUE GORE felt that Colonel White
had been most unjustifiably attacked. If there
was any fault, it was not attributable to Colonel
Whyte, but to the system under which he
acted. That gallant officer could not have acted in any
other way than he had done. The system might be
wrong, but Colonel Whyte was not to be blamed in giv-
ing it effect while he was acting under it.
Mr. P. HOWARD was glad that steps were in pro-
gress to effect a diminution of corporal punishment, as
he believed it would be the means of considerably im-
proving the character of the array. He thought, in
regard to corporal punishments, the soldier should not
be placed in a worse position than the felon. He was
glad that the explanation had been made in exculpation
of the character for undue severity preferred against
Colonel Whyte.
The subject then dropped.
THE CARNIVAL AT MALTA.
Mr. HUME was sorry to detain Mr. Speaker a
short time longer in the chair, but he had a
motion of some importance which he wished to
submit to the House. It was as follows
That, in the opinion of this House, and accordingh to
the correspondence laid before it, relative to
pro-
ceedings in the island of Malta during
theth
governor
e Carnival
holidays in February last, the conduct of
ianntderfoefretnhcee
wmiatghistht magistrates
long-existing
gtinugndue;aghk_i.ss
to,fritth? orders, in in. t.he
and privileges guarentee
inhabi-
tants of that island, amoudnttotothane iAnitti'rlieti.etsieonh)o,fththeecarpigiteuts
• and are also contrary to the princip es- en yi an .
lation under which. they eirigeatlly übd.
pets,
n4u44444,u0 imgauer,
religious liberey." In the present case. tho,.9overnor of
'4'"*.‘44.'

interfered with a ceremony, which for forty-five
years had been carried on for four days without
any breach of decorum or any objectionable
procte g. The interference would seem to have been
undertaken from a prot,elytising motive. and had given
great offence to the professors of the Roman Catholic}
religion. When the Governor, in February last, and on
the first Sunday of the Carnival, ordered its suppression,
he voted in a most improper and unjustifiable manner.
and he (Mr. Hume) should like to have some explanste
ti.‘n of the affair. It was true that a number of person*
dress, d as clergymen did parade the streets with a
wooden bible in their hands, and they did so, he believed,
with the view of showing their detestation of the manner
in ;which their ceremonies had been interfered with.
(Hear, hear.) The prayer of the memorial, which he
held in his hand, complained that the interference was
a breach of their privileges, and he for one thought the
public of Malta had a right to keep up an usage
iGmomveermnoorriaolpcounsttohme
was justified, or he might say had been legalised by
subject,(Hearh,
ehehaard.)
leTarhneedrepfroormt of the
authority in Malta, was erroneous, nay, in many respects
iintruee and Government ounbt to be rejoiced to have
that opportunity of explaining the document, and clear'
ing up the character of the Governor. It must be re:
membered that the place had always preferred Englisu
discretion.—(Hear, to French government, and this act of the Governor, in
his opinion, evinced
that only seventy or eighty persons were arrested, but
he had pretty good information, showing that theenuni;
aloneber was Hear, ehesetrarSgeTahned
Governor.extra ordi
represents
wantw hicohd.
he morethouglhi kt e Ihy:tho be ea
rightl7o, andto
callu pfoonr
it.this
No true
friend of civil and religious liberty could justify such er;
duct as this, and in justice to the public of Malta, who had
always shown a disposition favourable to England, they
ought to hive this matter inquired into.(Hear, hear.)
He did not attribute any intentional injury committed
on the part of the Governor. No doubt the Governer
thought he was acting conscientiouly, and for the bee!'
but still he had exhibited a sad want of discretion len
having 170 persons arrested on one day to be discharge'
for want of charges on the following morning, and Go'
vernment would not be doing its duty to the colony cn
Malta unless they protected the population against
Id
repetition of such conduct. (Hear, hear.) He eon,
not conclude
,without expressing his regret at the Dv'
ter which Lord Grey had written upon the
e.„
subject, and he thought this was another reason wt.,
the House should agree to his resolution, to show the
governors of English colonies that they were not tt
in-
terfere with the rights, privileges, and liberty of her tut
jesty's subjects, who might happen to reside within the"
itiriediction. The Emperor of China had issued a notice'
that within his dominions. Catholics, and in fact every
class of religionists, should be allowed freely to ben
their processions and ceremonies, without being moles'
or interfered with in any way.—(Hear, bear.)
was an example then set them by those whom they 06
considered barbarians.—(Hear, hear.)
Dr. BOWRING, in seconding the motion, said he
thought his Hnn. Friend had brought the subject bete°
the House with a gOoddeal of temper. and forbeartn;
He reminded the House that although there was ranee
loyalty in Malta, there was a strong undercurrent, °A
discontent, for the people had often memorials
to have their grievances redressed, but the)
prayers had never been attended to.—(Heat',
The Catholic dignitaries were not consulted, and there.
‘uld be no doubt that the conduct of the Governor we!,
unjustifiable. A few days previous to the holding u:
the Carnival,' he issued a manuscript order to the effene;
that the Carnival was not to be tolerated. The Governl'e
had no right to do this, nor had he anyright to abolish t",
law of centuries in the course of a few hours. The ce ht
plaints of the Maltese were well founded, and he thong le
that the House should by their vote assure that pee
that they would not tolerate such conduct on the par' e
the Governor,—(Hear, hear.) That people had akweite
acted faithful towards England, and they had a right
be protected.—(Hear, hear.) He bad the greatest
hie
tisfaction in seconding the motion of his Honours
Friend.
The SPEAKER having put the qustion
Mr. HAW SE rose and said, his Hon., Friend then
Member for Montrose, had said that he would eenPeee
himself to the facts of the case ; and he (Mr. Hew 0,
should pursue a similar course, and after having don.
he thought that the House would agree with him. theatt:
esse had not been made out for the interference 01 the
i louse. He begged to assure the House snot
the Carnival was celebrated at Malta,
eceording to the law of that island, but. by the Pernleee
sion of the Governor.—(Hear, hear.) Both Catheno
ell Protestants had petitioned the Governor to Pe' l
rid to these festivals, and that individual according e
'sued the order complained of. He held in his band
!et er from the Governor, in reference to the c-onepletnrn
The' Righl Win.-Gentletnan then-relid Mier,
es
which the Governor stated that the festival had I?e,':.e
interrupted in accordance with the express desire of the
Catholic Vicar-General and clergy, and the Protestaeos
clergy also.) The matter was altogether of a religio,h,
character. The order of the Governor had certaine:
caused some opposition on the part of a few of ti
people, but they were not composed of the respectable
,sasses of the island. The parties who had been COer
witted summoned the police, but the case was dismissel;el
and here the charge is fully confuted that the wh0,14
fault lay_ with the Governor, for the case is krougfe
before the ordinary civil magistrates, who dismissed iP
case.
Mr. HUME—They may not have decided fa irli'
They may have been influenced.
Mr, HAWES—His Hon. Friend could not fairy
raise that question, but no such charge had been made,
and and he considered that the case did not present rt:
slightest colour of a charge of an attempt to meddle ti
w 1;
the civil and religious liberties of the Maltese. Wroenet
tits Hon. Friend said that Malta was a colony, he cos
. xcuse him for drawing a great and broad ilisteneeeet
between it and such a colony as Canada. It was! 1; of
military position, and, therefore, with a ponille7;loni
100,000, it was not entitled to be treated like a oe be
such as Canada, for such a constitution would n
adapted for Malta. doubt
Mr. VERNON SMITH said that there was ne d that
that the case was much altered, but he considereletne°
they. were much indebted to the Right Hon. Genoese,
for bringing the matter under the notice of the be the
for it was most necessary that there should note eves
;lightest ground for suspicion that there could egjone
an attempt made to meddle with the civil or re,,t the
liberty of the people of Malta. He considered tu'iteen•
Governor-General bad acted unwisely in not Ineilth the
ing to the people that he acted in accordance eeple
advice of the Archbishp—(Hear, hear)—for thehPitrerf,
must have considered that there had been an fcreechted
act on the part of the Government. He was the did"
that the question had been brought forward, ft
cussion would not be without its use. a acted
Mr. EWART considered that the Governor had
eeople
incautiously; he had not taken care to inform the r co-
on what grounds he had taken the nieseernle have
plained of. Had he done so no complaint would bay°
arisen. He thought that the island of Malta e.h,`iseteei,
a system of representation ; if such were estioithful tu
believed the people would be more loyal and
the interests of the British crown. whet gal
•eal
Sir DE LACY EVANS wished to kni;j, corn'
there was any disturbance resulting from t
La
e
that induced the Governor to interlero• rfaine n the
Mr. II A.WES stated that great diet`,l;ede nl°-
arisen, and many complaints had been l'ereot• tit ,f
subject prior to the interference of the Gov
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that the exPile colons"
the Right lion. Baronet the Secretary tor t 1
had given a different tone to the subject. feeenee t''
Mr. P. BORTHWICK said that,
the dispatch of Mr. Gladstone, he must say, would (lei
excessive light the lines app
enadei stand it. The House
any person to read it so touu
n the subject, and were
seemed quite in the dark
it- • I the con'
carnival with the masque, and
confounding the
was perfectly inexplicatie.
duct of the Governor
" •T sto with
Itedaele itt;
. me. B. •EsCOTT"taid that he was It a o 3 the
whether it was the wish of the Government 11,1')!ee
House should condemn or approve the conduct ~hs
Governor. He thought there had been a groes inerahe
of the civil and religious liberties of the people of re-
by the Governor. He repeated that both civil en_ nee
ligious liberty had been violated by the acts of this ;e..
vernor. The people of Malta met together in seethey
ance with the custom of the country, and althoug ore
"
had committed no breach of the public peace. lbeYheer')
arrested and imprisoned for doing so.—(Eleer*lieloae
If this was not
earedaninfringement of
be ci
some bang vil aedPert
, eettiePte
dll
okb
wee rni a masque on a Sunday was an infringementt
t 3 :, it app
Colonel FOX confessed that he did not think Po suss
civilm ro.r.
having HUME liberty, to
. ten
divide, declared his deternnnea
her for
Mr. P. HOWARD said, as the Hon. take ten
It
clear that this Carnival, besides being
Montrose intended to go to a division, he (Pet:-
liberty of sa3ing a few words upon the sub-le—ant in isfl
incoenler-ee
nature, was sanctioned by long time ond, etglit to
usage, and the Governor, in his opinit )dicl.;e" ear,
ce,
paused before he took the proceedings be eau "
hear.) He did not., however.;, think any SO his ee-e,
follow a division, and lie therefore suggottawitfe hoof
Friend the Member for Montrose, who he"- haniPl°-
and he trusted would continue still to be, the nithdrovine
civil and religious liberty, the propriety of vi
the motion.
Mr. FOX M AIME agreed with the Hon.., teettet
pally of.
that he could not see what good could re Gofer
the use
division. It would be a co:lsere upon the go ee
and before the House went so far, he begge% Could
the
to remember that the Carnival,, beforteh:v Govern;
celebrated, required the sanction of. r °eosin :he
—(Hear, hear.) Now, on this particuta
hied, ed
consent of the Governor bad not been obta
try a e
clear wasover
object of the people it was tolerably n _ toweree
or rehaving
do away with the governor's juriedictio
overnore.ee,
it altogether.—(Hear, hear.) The g eeputre
_1;
found it to be a custom which all wise people existeu_
refused to allow it to continne ; a custom not The
at Rome, and followed only at Malta. Catholic P°
would find, he was sure, that the Roman Gentlenians
would
pulation went with him. member not
Mr. C. BERKELEY hoped the Hon. , tau%
with
press his motion to a division. He fountou, bast
with•the governor putting down the custo u
the manner of his doing so. knew
0f the
Mr. eI•CAR From what he ket therhole
colony of Melia, he was inclined to suspect he e
soinetning more than appeared to the llor rieegion !".
these was an indirect interference with the
college
the potpie of the country. There wasr teacher
ereoe
the p the
of the Italian language. and considereda
..0
en be a
Matte into which the rector wi-died to int ouuu bee
fitted for this purpose would be Ito than
Governor positively refused to aillew
aany of_ that
British sutuect to teach the Italian language
say d
.- -
Tile CHANCELLOR of the E.A.ctitQuElt
4-4140ut 9,460144 igvai tiii4 OOP
the remark mede by the last speakerduced
liaa Vre

,roc
I,lllliset inform thc Iron. Gentlemen that it was a part of !
t‘, collee that none but iiriti%tt sub--4
could bola utiicia,i nitnatio
40avve
u r
t,4 what had fallen fr
tQat
Ag'Ain,h Asa''pflt,slAtakid stand un th
r
ill: trar
0)n, IV be..
ttPPrObai ;oil CI
th:e". -'ho fact w:t?,
People ouAt-,to -got the sanction of the
iit'enor before masvin, during the carnival ;
iota that s nitetion had not been obtained, and
e the lowest of the people masqued notwithstand-
th; was,
tne consequence of which
the interference
tnketi place. He said. he had risen merely to
us(' tilt, rnicds of Members on the stibj,et.
li't4ag
oners Were en ordered to withdraw, and the
"" divided, when there appear
Against the motion.--
Per ;

tu-1 int(Tt

in it

11A(1 ii

Tii is v

Hon. Gen

zed vend si

110 «•oaild have vaet
Catholic clergy then-
it had been stated,

50
12
-38

11.), a,7,aittst the motion...
14.'4 our re-admission into ;hr, allery, we fourld
kr ARMY AN!) NAVY ESTIMATES.
Ikth. WILLIAMS tin his legs, addressing the House
tir at: st'bivet of the increase in the army and navy es.
' - the year 18.35. the estimate for the army
tht(l was 11,457,0001, while for the present year
,Vi.t,Htlate was 16,840,00 a. being an increase of
144),'"001, or a f,tnn equal to the whole amennt of the
1/tCe"tax: The Itnount of teen for the arm y and navy
• " •
.......... ...
embodied

1845

108,743

26,500

150.284
40,000
loo)()

Increase.
. 41,541
13,500

10,000

lip,. faking'. a total increase of
148144 slid not krolw what necessity there WrIS ful-
-1
ittie.,r4e incresS4 in the pesent year, when there was
51r;
.t}l7.oughout the world, with the ex?epti:m of
,11441. a. ...Again, if he 'added to toil number i1:-.•
4orliY6er4l. 4. the 'tnilitia-,.• the half-ray, and the various
kle:s t'f Toiii,e, /here was an av_:tilzit4•: firer! of 274,000
t 4 St)
he supported h:). this country. He would call
Nrdlitentik.M of ',.h0,-110113t*: to tb.e horse and, foot
hp,„"3• There -W: a total :stnount of 6,568 men. the
4t(;"' of which 'was equal to 12,000 infantry. There
Gls ttl-fi•_•ers, and 150 n.n-cominiisioned officeFs, eon-
-44,;4 with this body; n. log in the proportiOnr of-l-sne
tN•tvt,',' ten. men. and one non-commisiimed officer to
tht"L.•:•"Sttir inen in the Ist Light Dragoons. In
41,1°4 guards, and in the ;regiments of the line,
tit: ti;:ftl nothi'ng like Cl:is enormous disprepnrtion.
phi,; 'lot know why this body, who: had not seen
,tfraek:' should be Able to lbt-dt clown upon tbo;e veteran
lot— Wh9 had soon all. kinds of service. He hoped
ttitt„-1111nent, would inquire into the subject ; he was
inl ,
Ltifth„ I.• was a :natter seriously felt by, the other officers
No fOlluY. fie had brought the matter before the
4ti,,',l)verinettt, hut he knew" it was perfectly useless t.•
Itlitt''rore them any kabject with reference•to the cur-
l:l443A of expenditure. They bad, during three yeais
144 1)14010f their adtninitration created 600 places,
11, .stoweil tip,m these: plseeitnin 24,500/. per annum,
'14.11111 aft..) call the attention of the House to the
toj-'4lls • f 3 414 000/ fcr half-pay and pensions
pt: • 34,1% 0 „ . ,
Tjle army. - • '
ktIiktnte,.,.,CIIANTIELLt)R of the EXCHEQUER sai,l,
5.11,.• (3P.yernment would not. he could assure th
ertpa—"w'aber, propose any vete which they were not
41.1•0 defend unon th, itricte,t ground of economy.
i140.',. • nt)ULBURN justified the conduct a the late
ttarnment in the course they ha•l pursued in the ap-
iirll'lll.„:uf amitiAnitoficers in the Post-office, in the
11:it.9,.k,
...w. titlik,, o 04, t4'•Fa.,
~
,rlits-".. './_-_lti, Wals quite,
:prepared
I)tqt*.l.tie*itisii'Ai those. nsppotittments tv.th the:
...:;.4.,,,,' Akb"iiiiii.ptit 4iiii—ocea for thiti he might think tit.
.i',,:-.,!';i.-'O3-Am.,klrEt oF SUPPLY.' . ~
ii:r , oltse then t forrued its_.l.o iur9 fa CoVii'..liiii,- ,17
.

rterY 772,'091. for the- unite,F serVeni.giitland
‘••=',Zti was agre4 to; a,i were also • '-' : . '''' `-k-
-h,
~A.,M9it.40,4-3Di.ft.ilk expenser -e....,.,,
t‘7,),l4,l7atroo2l:ll;'r'the pof Ihe liiyal'inilliary
.
11t14,. following sums were voted, as portions of the
li6,0•70( , estimates :-36.50 IL ; 12,0001. ; 49,0001. ;
l'is,cli). ; 26,000/. ; 38,0004 ; 4,0504 ;,52,000/. ; 34,606/. ;
l'h °I. ; 20,000/. ; and -500,0001. • :
Tile 111411 was then ordered to-report progress.
Ike„rlilC/14otise having resumed, the CHAIRMAN reported
'ill% tr),:tiglY, and the -report was ordered to be brought
et iv?
This b4ASOLIDATED FUND 4,000,000/. BILL.
' , 'Ail W. real a third time and passed.
: qiitcp.,4`,-/INT STOCK BANKS BILL.
,„,47),1 was real a third time and passed.
° ~,tho tRIT IiiikaINSE.,AN.D. DUTIES BILL, .
5 taj,,'Port on this Bill wa; brought up antfie,_J.--ed to,
i ,114',,11i1l ordered to be engrossed.
h,,•111,' ' k), ABLE PROPERTY (IRELAND) mu..
; =l,,,:isill went trirough Committee pro forma, for the
b El ; q havinq amendle.ents introduced int., the Bill.
~ i;itemt,'UNits (Ireland) Bill, Leases (Ireland) Mil, and
Niii' tiesl,-y roperty (Ireland) Bill were postponed_ till
kOk, FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL.
; NtC4III.JONES objected going into Committee at
llih„`",''' of the night..
A,
..1. . ; -.;;'".-f.41-I':'''
'i.,' tit was postponed till WeuuSsuiy.• _ ~ ,-"!..- ‘, ~ ''''
1 tlAgirp,istriet Lunatic Asyrures.Bill was postpOstet , ,
41,1 r AND WASIIHOUSES (IRELAND) BILL.,
kk. ,r;aging up the reportofif this Bill, ' •
• 'qe i • "ROGAN moved -the omission of clause 4, and.
tkettiseetion of the following clauses:—And be it en-
i Nti(jA, that the expenses of carrying this Act into exe•
t IV in any such borcuigh, or such city or town in
1111,p the Council or Town Commissioners respectively
, it,, bare resolved to adept this Act for their borough,
i 441. "I' town respectively, shall be chargeable upon,
tll,,,,,iPtid out of the funds to be raised under, the au-
l't,,;,'Y of this Act ; and for that purpose the Council or
tofte'''.4 Commissioners may cause a separate rate, not
' 444.,:ing in the whole, at any one time, the sum of one
SIP" Poland sterling, upon the rateable property of
;44 ~,.11.?‘04h, city, or town, to be levied. paid, and re-
!.tti r1:47 an like manner, and with the like powers and
*J't,--',t's in all respects .as the borough7rate or town-rate,
' ttl "Plied in payment of the expenses of carrying this
intern' execution, as if such expenses were necessarily
441;,"'l in earning into effect the provisions of the
4lal-,,lht-t third and fourth years of the reign of her pre-
Ahl,7l.lPsty' or the said Act of the ninth year of his
~lic,r-ti King George the Fourth, or of such local or
4':i- qor Acts as aforesaid, as the case may be; and
'hirle arising from the 'baths and washhouses and
1‘444 h 4thinic. places in any borough, or city, or town,
,Itti,"" Paid to the credit of the separate account of such
:is - std
washhouses. And be it enacted, that when
‘,tll‘ town Council of any such borough al
• (1,.:1-id, or the Town Commissioners for any
S,, guy or town as aforesaid, shall have
ea ps '`‘`', this Act for their bor, eieh, city, or town,
`hti• ', "wdy they shall cause their treasurer, or, where
11Pp,-• %hall be no treasurer, such person as they shall
t ,it b:l4t., to keep a true and regular account of all sums
i ,1/44(r)^4'Y expended by them in the purchase of any
t leai`kr buildings for the impose of erecting baths or
ei the
"I'llses thereon, or in the purchase of any baths
e`qt 9reet'ols and of all sums of money borrowed by
:_tti434,2l,nder the owers of this Act, and of all ex-
# vgltt "l,ettrred by them for or on account of the pur- •
' ,N, ~°' this Act : and the said account shall be
tee " t',l and audited in like manner and at the same
' ':,ti; as all other accounts of receipts and payments of
‘l4; horongh, city, or tows, respectively, are ex
Al ~,,'"'ti and audited : and the said Council or Town
tss%l4isiioners shall, before the first day of February in
ii• Y , transmi to the Ld Lieutenant or other
le,i„'L Goavernor ort or
Governots of Ireland for the time
ll:g, a true and correct copy of such account : and
tktilgaid Council or Town Commissioners shall also
't,rt e '''. c"PY of such account to be deposited in the office
.;:alh Gown Clerk, or of such person as they shall ap-
it teesexiecutestlie-deties-ofe Town Clerk,- within one
`'nth after the same shall have been audited, and the said
' swot shall be open to the inspection of all inhabitants
ti such borough, city, or town, and copies thereof shall
t, clelireited to all inhabitants of such borough, city or
li*h. applying fer the same, upon payment of one shil-
'T for each copy.
COURT OF COMMON PLEAS BILL.
tl 1,,
gig Bill went through Committee, and the several
'44,
1,,1'a were agreed to.
I,ue House resumed.
th`uhs Copyhrild Coriimission Bill, Turnpike Act Con-.
ktict4",•nee Bill, Stock in Trade Bill, Highway Rates Bill,
opti cialin Societies Bill, were read a second time, and
eted to be committed this day. ~
MILITARY FLOGGING.
i r. E
It th SCOTT moved for a return of persons flogged
14;1° army in Great Britain and Ireland, in C.:e years
qr ; and 1846 to the end of July ; specifying : 1. ,I'he
4‘-.4.- 2. The regiment, the place of station, the time.
sentence. 4. The order for execution. 5.
%,e, 'Nher the trials were open to the public, or only
Oti k- htl the regiment, or with closed doors. 6. The
after of lashes inflicted, and the day. 7. How soon
‘,llq Punishment the man was able to return to his duty,
'-'t,t4t what pace he was then quartered. 8. Whether
hhehas followed within twelv. months of the flogging,
sins the date of such death. 9. Whether the punishment
or I,:"ieted, if in cavalry regiments, by the trumpeter
,11,44-rriers ; if in infantry regiment, by the privates or
the ,`"rs, and with' what instrument. 10. Copies of
441),-,„4"gcton's.minutes of all such punishments, and any
4;1. 7,,nt observations on their consequences.
'• ~,k, ~‘-,X MANTLE objected to the returns.
. 'hat.ei. 'SCOTT consented to postpone his motion till
', .. Nk.„-maY next. - •
' . - ' 41, MEDICAL -SUPPLEMENTAL- FUND
~ .
kr, - - SOCIETY.
`° e • BARD obtained leave to bring in a Bill relating
.:t
' -h„.v
Bill
lit-dical Supplemental Fund Society.
tem : •uill was tend a first time, and ordered to be
'‘ . - second time this day.
'''Sir": LUNATIC ASYLUMS.
' .tie -,;-7. GREY obtained leave to bring in' a Pill to
. . -11*aty-D -11',,the law e
eicerning Lunatic Asylums, and the
"-
--•-,4ett, 1.
urier Louaties, in England.
.;„- „, TRIGONOMETRICAL SURVEY.
h i: ". NORREYS' moved for a Select Committee on
l'lyi':!,gress -of the Trigonometrical Survey of Ireland.
17...,n agryed to.
trkLKoTIONS IN THE CITY OF CHESTER.
loin":
,A T rORNEY-GENERAL obtained leave to
eto.Z.,'" a Bill regulatinet EleCtions in the City of
Thyr, 0
re,d Bilks s then read a first time, and ora:red to be
4 tiMe'this d •
ae.
(>0 th .- NEW WRIT. . .
',,rd, motion of Mr. TUFNELL, a new writ w"
.rim f
th, v , ur th 4. borough of St. Albin's, in the room e.
-1,, e.il „E .- , ,
--. e. , to,stowel, who, since his election, had
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1,6 SUGAR DUTIES BILL.
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