The Sun.
London, England, 1846-03-24 00:00:00

THE suN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MA!RCR 24, 1846,

teople of Ireland were removed from this condition, '
hey would become better affected towards this country.
Their dispositions were not averse to a friendly
relation with us, but the misgovernment which they had
experienced alienated them from this country. We see
them in the colonies—we see them in America—we see
them in all parts of the world distinguishing themselves,
end taking most important positions where their energies
and talents were brought to bear, We see them here
at the hardest work, and their industry mid good conduct
was most exemplary. He had himself seen them in that
part of the country with which he was connected, and
he had found them grateful for the labour which they
had got. They were thankful, they were well-con-
ducted, and they were buoyant in spirits ; they were. not
given to quarrel. To be sure we saw them sometimes
rather thoughtless with regard to themselves, but we al-
ways found them open and warm-hearted, and an excess
of gratitude, not indeed for favours, but for
the employment given them by the people
of this country. Why, then, should such a people suffer
such unparalleled misery as they were now suffering in
Ireland ? Was not this the fault of the Legislature
which kept them in such a state ?—(hear, hear.)
lie said, then, that it was possible for Parliament to in
terfere with effect to remedy these grievances. lie was
not of opinion that evils of so long standing
could be remedied all at once, but he was
persuaded that if the consideration of them vva,
undertaken with proper earnestness and singleness
of purpose, and without regard to preconceived
opinions, that they could in a short time give evidence
of what could be done for the good of Ireland, in pro-
ducing a better state of things than what at present
existed, as well as a better ordered community. He
repeated, that if Parliament discharged the duty
which was incumbent upon it, no despair should be
entertained of success, for they might depend that the
blessing of Providence would attend their endeavours.
The fault he had to find with Government was not fur
what they had done, but for what they had omitted to
do. lie complained of their measures as being inade-
quate. Not that they were in the wrong direction. He
thought that the means by which they proposed to carrs
1 out their intentions were ill adapted for the purpose. Ii
he rightly comprehended her Majesty's Government,
their object was this: It was to increase the protection to
life and property in Ireland, and to secure protection to
honest industry, and better rewards for labour. They con-
sidered these two subjects so closely connected as to be inse-
parable, and to make it impossible to say which was
cause and which was effect. If the resources of
Ireland were looked at, it would be at once seen that
the great desideratum was security ; and if its poverty
and wretchedness were considered, it would be difficult
to deny that want of employment and the absence of re-
ward fur honest labour had much to do in producing them.
Such a state of the law could only tend to increase and
aggravate the existing evils ; no remedy that the
Government could apply would be effective, unless a
remedy was applied to both at the same time. Employ-
ment should be given to the people of Ireland by pri-
vate enterprise and industry, and by no other means
could the Government hope to achieve their present ob- !
ject. These were the views he understood the Government
now to have; and he also understood that the motives
of the present Government, in bringing about an im-
proved state of things in that country were right and good,
and indeed it would be difficult for the Government
to do inure. Those measures of the Government were
judicious and well-timed, and he had no fault to find
with them. But he could not forget that the perma-
nent employment of the Irish people depended
upon private enterprise and capital being ex-
tensively employed in that country.—(Hear, hear.) No
eountry could be in a wholesome state that depended
upon the Government for mere artificial means of em-
ployment.
When they looked at the present
state of that country, and the amount of em-
ployment given to the people by the Govern-
ment, they should see that it would be literally and en-
tirely inadequete to the purposes for which it was in-
tended. Such measures would accomplish no real im-
provement, unless at the same time the state of the coun-
try was such as would encourage the investment of private
capital and enterprise. But this could not be expected
until rereons and property were made secure, and that
security established on some better and more solid
foundation than at present existed.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") Until that was made certain, it would be
utterly impossible to expect that private enterprise to
tiny great extent would take root in Ireland for such
Security in any country was no less necessary to its pros-
perity than the existence of life itself. He thought that
there ought to be some sufficient security provided by the
Constitution, and discoverable in the foundations of society.
What was the reason that there was no law found strong
enough for this purpose in the Constitution itself, and in the
exercise of the ordinary constitutional powers ? Until they
had established this, they had, in fact, done nothing, They
bad of late years provided liberal), for the construction of
-Irish works. Ever since the union large sums of money had
been provided by the Government for the completion of Irish
works, but he believed, nay, he greatly feared, that much of
the money which had been granted had been to a very large
extent jobbed.—( Hear, hear.) He did hope that the mea-
sures which might obtain the sanction of that House—he did
hope that those measures, would have the effect of providing
riore than mere temporary advantage—should they have the
advantage of obtaining the sanction of the other portion of the
Legislature. He believed that the provision for public works
was in the highest degree useful ; but even these, useful as
they might be, would never alone have the advantage of giving
an impetus to private enterprise, and of eliciting that
commercial spirit through which alone anything like
a permanency would be given to enterprise in Ireland and
the employment of capital for national improvement. Fur
these reasons he feared they must not flatter themselves that
they would succeed in their present attempts to establish good
order and peace in the country, by the exercise of the ordi-
nary powers of the law. But the great object which they had
now to obtain was to establish peace, and security, and con-
fidence, by the exercise of those powers, and not by the en-
forcing of temporary and arbitrary laws. He would now conic
to the special object of his motion, and in doing so he was
bound to say that he did not see, in the measures which the
Government proposed, anything that was likely to produce this
result. There was nothing in them likely to have the happy
effect of producing unanimity, without the exercise of those
strong powers which he was compelled thus to deprecate.
lie was compelled to say, that there was nothing which gave
him the assurance that the ferment now existing in that coun-
try was likely to be subdued by the measures before their
Lordships, nor could he hope anything better from the matters
under the consideration of the other branch of the Legislature.
Was there anything to assure them that in Oct. 1849 they would
be freed from the necessity, in order to obtain peace, from pass-
ing some measure equally as despotic as that to which he had
alluded ?—( Hear, hear.) He would assure their Lordship's
that his conviction was quite the other way, and he thought the
great duty imposed upon them was to ascertain what measures
were necessary to obtain the object which he had laid before
them. This was their real difficulty, and he thought it was
heir duty to keep this difficulty constantly before them, and to
consider whether it was right to retain laws of the despotic and
arbitrary character which he bad mentioned for the preservation
of good order. He believed that there was nothing in those
measures, when taken in connexion with the situation of Ire.
:and, which would justify them in believing that any such re-
-tilt would ensue until not merely the officers of the Govern-
ment, not merely those who were paid for administering the
law and maintaining good order, but every member of the
community, high or low, joined in remedying those evils. In
Ireland, on the contrary, the population were entered in one
4eneral combination against good order. Let them
compare the difference between England and Ireland, when some
great crime was committed. In this country, if a murder had
been committed, and the culprit had escaped, the newspapers,
if the culprit were known, carried his description over the
breadth of the land—an hundred eager eyes were on the watch
far him—all to whom suspicion could attach were taken into
custody, hurried before the magistrate ; and in this way it was
!hat the real culprit seldom escaped. But in Ireland the popu-
lace did not interfere to secure the murderer and bring him to
justice ; on the contrary, the whale body of the people were
banded to screen and protect him, and to such an extent was
this feeling carried, that the greatest disgrace which could
attach to an Irish peasant was that he gave the slightest assist-
ance to the officers of the law. The character of informer,
were the name attached in Ireland, was as much as a man's
life was worth. What was the definition of the term informer
in Ireland as compared with the same term in England? In
England informer was understood to mean a man who for gain, or
for the pure se of obtaining a penalty against another, would lay
an infornWm for some infraction of the law, frequently of the
roost light and venial description. That was the informer in
England. But what was the meaning of the term informer in
Ireland? The informer in Ireland was a man who dared to
give information to the officers of the law of the commission
of crime. Their Lordships were told the other night of the
extreme danger of giving evidence by the son or wife of a man
who had been, perhaps, unhappily murdered ; that man was, per-
haps, dragged out of bed at the midnight hour by a hand of
hired assassins, and in the presence of his wife and child inhu-
:aanly and basely murdered, and yet that wife or child, al-
though they knew the assassins by name—although they could
well describe them—dared not do so, as, in Irish definition,
they would be hunted down as informers. That persons, even
under this strong provocation, could not venture to give infor-
mation to justice was most melancholy and alarming ; and it was
well known that for the protection of witnesses is former years,
where a man gave evidence on behalf of the Crown, in the
case of murder, as soon as the trial was over, the Crown was
obliged to allow the expenses of emigrating to the man, that
lie might leave for the colonies, as his life was no
sager safe in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Instead of
eontributing to the administration of the law, they
eely assisted in screening the offender. The sympathy of the
people was not with the murdered, but with the murderers.
i le believed that murderers were actually privileged in every
quarter of Ireland. The House well knew the jealousy and
saspicion with which the Irish peasantry looked upon any
stranger or unknown person coming into their districts to seek
1 ,r. work ; yet he believed that there were actually well-
authenticated instances of men who, wishing to find employ-
ment at a distance from their native districts, actually pre-
tended to be murderers hiding to escape the search of the peace
officers, and they had obtained work in the districts to which
they did not belong. He had beard the Secretary for Ireland,
whom he did net see in his place, describe well.authenticated
instances of this kind as having existed. He thought it suffi-
ciently well established that the temper and disposition of the
veople was not to assist, but to the art, the administration of
kite law, and this was the cause of the evil. While that temper
remained unaltered, it was in vain that they employed
Coercion
Bills for it was quite impossible that they
couldcha
Coercionng establish
Billthi s
t,
anytem tend
temper and disposition, t
isrdsoitisooni and,\verehtehjeasskeevde,re h adth
suppress
provi-
sionstbatertihmey@, of
wereancoymaypaeill, whileledtothe p
adopt, wehoeindeencdoenatviuonured itii
endeavouring to
hued with the spirit he was endeavouring to describe ? Were
thei,x isstei
nsge vlear p
we ,
aronvdistioonisndeuaelceutliawternd toto rleocooun ci lopeo theupon
t he peopletn g
English
theh a s
their friends, instead of as their enemies? This Bill was of a
s,urce like the dram of the drunkard, who, in the fit of intole-
rable depression which succeeded his exce.msse.eass,urkeneww.outhldatbae
1 cab excess would give him temporary relief, arid to that ex-
The fact was,. thethat the
the spirit which caused their
r,alehreedarpepslsietidor. the moment for commission of crime, but
it had no tendency to take away
greatest reason, and also by cape-
difficulty in the administration of the law. That such
would be the result was proved by
severity r i
degreetyb e e notfr
severityied l o n g
enough (and without much regard
rience. Had not measures of greaterdatetro
employed) without effect? He found, in
Baronet at the head of her Ma Government,
' G
Right Hon. a speech made by the
jestya
in the year 1829, in introducingtootfhetHheousceatthhoelic measureii iwhich he proposed the removal
disabili-
ties,i lad rtehenh. He said that, histories ofthemat, in the year
easureswhichhadisbo7
wadeop.titoedd
ii
that the Habeas Corpus Act was suspended, and the
Act for the suppression of rebellion was in force ;
in 1801 it continued in force, as also in 1802. In 1803 the in-
surrection for which Emtuett suffered began, and Lord Kil-

warden was murdered by ,savage mob. In 1804 the Act con-
tinued, and in 1806 the west and south of Ireland were in a j
state of insubordination, difficult to repress by the ordinary
course of the law. In 1807, in consequence of the increase of
insubordination, the Insurrection Act was increased in power,
giving to the Lerd Lieutenant the power of placing, by procla-
mation,
any district out of the pale of ordinary law. It sus-
pended trial by jury, and made it a transportable offence to be
out at any period from sunset to sunrise. It continued in force
from 1807, through 1808. 1809, to the close of 1810. In the
year 1814 the Information Act still continued, and through the
years 1815, 1816, and 1817. In 1822 it was again renewed,
during the years 1823 and 1825. In 1825 a temporary Act
intended for the suppression of dangerous associations, and
especially the Catholic association, which was continued during
1826, 1827, and expired in 1828. In 1829 a new demand arose
for the abolition of the whole Act—but he would
not continue this painful history—only four years
afterwards, it was again found necessary, a short time after Sir
Robert Peel came into power, to introduce a similar measure
of the severest kind. That measure, or at least a great part
of its provisions, were renewed in 1824, and it expired only
four or five years ago; and now again, in the year 1846, they
were called upon to renew it. Such was the result which
experience showed to have been obtained by mere coercion.
Such was the exempla they had ; and if their efforts were
used in the proper direction, they would be able to prevent,
by rigorous measures, the commission of crime. They had the
prospect of restoring real security to Ireland. He contended
then that they must look further than they had hitherto done ;
that they must look to the root of the evil, and see whether
it was not possible to change the temper of the people, to
effect a reconciliation between them and their rulers.—.
(Cheers.) To make them friends instead of opponents of
the administration of the law. This was the object to which
their efforts ought to be directed, and it was the object which,
if the efforts to which he had referred were honestly
directed, they should be able to attain. It was true
the task was a most difficult one, because they had to erase
from the minds of the Irish people the deep impression of long
ages of mis-government—they had to convince them that their
rulers had both the will and the power to serve and promote
their happiness and prosperity. This was what they had to
accomplish, and he should endeavour to show what, with that
aid, he thought they would be able to establish in Ireland.
In the first place, he said, they must endeavour to convince
the people that the law really existed for their benefit. They
must amend the law both in its provisions and in its adminis-
tration, for both are defective. He was of opinion that the
law as it is now in Ireland was quite inadequate, as it effected
the poor man. It was so more especially as to the landed
tenure of Ireland. This was said to be the fact by the
Secretary for Ireland. That Noble Lord said, that the state
of the law as to the occupation of land in that country was the
root of the evil in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He (Earl
Grey) believed that injustice could take place under the
present state of the law, with respect to the
land question in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He should like to
know from her Majesty's Ministers, whether there was any
truth in a statement with respect to ate affair at Roscommon;
if the paragraph which he had read in a paper was true, it
was most dreadful. There were, it was said, three or four
hundred persons turned off their land, where they had been for
years ; they were turned out to starve without as much as a
place to lay their heads in. He trusted he was mistaken ; he
sincerely trusted that the paragraph was not correct. He be-
lieved 7 that a resort to such measures was most unjust. He
thought that when a lease fell out, to resort to such an extreme
measure was a disgrace to humanity—it was a disgrace to civi-
lised life. It was well known that whatever little draining
took place of land in Ireland was not paid for by the
landlord, but by the tenant. He did think it hard, that when
poor men, who had toiled upon the land for years, and after
giving it a double value by the improvements of their capital and
labour, that they should then ue turned off, if the land-
lord to whom they had paid their rent, had failed to pay it to his
superior landlord. This evil was to be traced to the practice of
sub-letting land in that country.
A NOBLE LORD—That is also the practice in England.
Earl GREY—That may be the law in this country,
but it was well known it was never acted upon to
anything like the extent that it was in Ireland. He
had heard of an instance of a poor man who had taken
half an acre of ground upon a plan that was called the conacre
system, for which he paid 91., and from which he was to derive
patatoes sufficient for the maintenance of his family.—( Cries of
" Name.") This, he was informed, was a common practice in
the county of Waterford. This poor man had a person over
him who got into arrear to his superior, the head landlord.
That head landlord, not having been paid his rent, seized upon
this poor man's crop, placed a keeper upon him, snatched from
him the means of existence, and he would not be even told for
what er for how much he had been seized upon. But, in order
to ascertain this fact, the poor man actually committed an
assault upon the keeper, in order that the faets of the case might
come before the public. Now this was a class of cases which
the law in its present state could not reach. Now, in order to
remedy such a state of things, he conceived that the Govern-
ment did take a step which appeared to him the most im-
prudent and injudicious that could well have been adopted. A
measure of a somewhat similar nature was introduced by Mr.
Sharman Crawford; but was withdrawn, upon the understand-
ing that a remedy would be applied ; and in the next session
the speech from the throne announced that a Commission had
been issued for the purpose of making the necessary inquiry.
Upon the debate which took place in February, 1844, upon a
motion of Lord J. Russeell, he (Lord Grey) took the liberty
of expressing his regret that such a Commission should have
been issued, inasmuch as it would have the effect of creating
exaggerated expectations in the minds of the people of Ireland
that would never Le realised. The present increase of agrarian
outrages was, in his opinion, traceable to it. It had given
rise to impressions among those who lived upon agriculture that
they were no longer to be the tenants, but the occupiers of the
sell. He did not mean to charge the Government with
at tempting to stave off the consideration of a difficult measure
by appointing this Commission. He did not mean to charge
them with suck a deriliction if duty, but he did charge them
with an unpardonable imprudence for the manner in which
they had dealt with it. He said now that not a moment should
be lest in taking the question up and dealing with it as
the circumstances seemed to require, not in the spirit of a
technical lawyer, but in the spirit of statesmen—not to
arrange the laws affecting civil property in an equivocal
and partial manner, but on the broad foundation of equity. A
reform conceived in such a spirit was now absolutuely necessary,
and he sincerely hoped the Government would set about it.
It was not the mere letter of the law, which should be im-
proved, nor its technical provisions, but they must also improve
its administration.—( Hear, hear.) A Noble Friend of hie,
whom he reeretteil not to see in his place, hal remarked that.
he ( Lord Grey) had gone too far in saying that there was one
law for the rich and another for the poor in Ire land, but he
would go still further and say, that not only was that the case,
but that both were ill administered. Since 1841 a change for
the worst had taken place in reference to this ; less confidence
was now felt by the people of Ireland in the administration of
the law than before. This was to be attributed to the hot and
eager, and virulent partizanship displayed by the Government
in placing the administration of justice in the hands of men who
had not the confidence of the people. That practice also, which
existed from 1835 to 1841, of exelading men from juries oil
account of their religion, has been again to some
extent revived. Any thing mere objectionable or more
improper he could not well imagine. Better for them to put
an end to trial by jury altogether than to countenance such a
proceeding. No jury was far better than a partizan jury. A
reform in the lass, however, and a reform in its administration,
were not the only p tints which required their consideration.
.ts long as the Parliament which enacted the laws, and the
Government which enforced them, were objects of hostility
and contempt, instead of respect and confidence, so long would
discontent and disturbance prevail. He knew that in express..
ing this opinion he was going against high authority—against
those who imagined that political discontent was essentially dif-
ferent from agrarian outrage. All the consideration which he
had given to the subject induced him to say that that was a
great mistake. He considered that agrarian outrage and poli-
tical agitation were essentially connected. So long as the cry
for the repeal of the union prevailed capital would never flow
into the country, and commercial enterprise never take root. It
appeared to him impossible to expect political discontent to
exist without exasperating the feeling of the people against the
law. The enforcement of the law should be the great object of
Government, but they could never bring the people to obey it,
or look upon it with respect, until they induced them to confide
in it. What, he would askewas the character of the crimes com-
mitted in Ireland ? Since the notice which he had given of
that motion, another outrage had been committed. A magis-
trate had been shot. The crimes committed were not of the
same character as those committed in this country. They did
not proceed from a love of plunder, or from those motives which
generally promote their commission in other countries.
They were the work of private combinations and se-
cret societies. It must be evident, therefore, that if
the rules laid down to guide the relationship between man and
man in that country were influenced by justice, the people
would soon learn to appeal to the regular tribunals of the
country' to remedy their grievances, rather than to those
midnight legislators. He said that the desperate fidelity with
which they cleaved to this kind of legislation showed a desire on
their part to cling to those for whom they expected a redress
of their wrongs. Captain Rock and the repeal judges were
obeyed ; and so well too, that it was considered by Noble
Lords as giving evidence of the worst symptoms of the state
of Ireland. Does not the fact of their being so obeyed show
that, where they can be made to attach themselves, they are
obedient and amenable to control ? A consideration of these
circumstances led to the inference that to make the laws
effective and well obeyed the attachment of the people must be
gained. While the contrary is the case the laws will be power-
less, and a well organised state of society w ill never be
secured. He now thought that he had made out his propo-
sition that political agitation and social discontent were closely
connected. Noble Lords might say, in reply to that, " put
down the repeal agitation, then murder and social disturbance
will be also suppressed." Before that such a proceeding was
attempted, let them recollect that that experiment has been
already made, and not with a succes which would encourage
its repetition. Even if they were to try and put it down, they
could only put down the external manifestation of it, and
the', too, by means repugnant to the spirit of the British
Constitution, and at variance with the feelings of Englishmen.
Let them remember, also, that the tendency of such an
attempt would be to alienate from their ranks a body of men
(his hoped a large body) who valued constitutional liberty.
While they kept aloof from the repeal agitation
the spirit which pervades the followers of repeal would
not be subdued. They must look to something
more effectual. They could not win men's hearts by force ;
they must win their affections, if they ever expected to govern
them well. It might be said that it would be impossible to do
I his, or that nothing could turn them from repeal. No one in
th it House could more firmly resist repeal than himself, but lie
firmly believed that no universal discontent ever yet prevailed,
unless there existed some grounds for it. The sufferers may
be mistaken, but it was seldom found that a redress of real
grievances did not remove all complaint. An analogous case
occurred in Scotland. A discontent more hopeful than that
which existed in Ireland prevailed there in 1713, on the repeal
of the Union with this country. A motion was brought before
that House to dissolve the Union. Did they reject it by an
overwhelming majority, as the other House did the preposition
of the repeal of the Union with Ireland, which he considered
would not find a mover or a seconder in that House ? The result
was 54 in favor of the motion, and 54 against it, and it was only
by a majority of four proxies that the motion was rejected.
There were seventeen proxies against the motion, and fourteen
in favour of it. What was the consequence of that agitation ?
Parliament set about remedying the grievances of Scotland,
and she was placed upon an equality with England in every
constitutional right and privilege, and the consequence was
that all desire for dissolving the connection was removed, and
he did not believe that there was at that moment one advocate
in all Scotland for such a measure. Let them try the same
system with Ireland. Let them adopt a similar mode of
procedure with regard to her grievances. Let them
grant such measures as Ireland would adopt if she had a
Parliament of her own. Let them adopt the language made
use of by a Learned Prelate in his speech on the Maynooth
grant—" That they engaged, when they took the government
of Ireland into their own hands, to rule her as if she had her
own Parliament." Let him ask, had they hitherto governed
Ireland
h a ie s Itahr d
ms inaema thatse u rw ofy regarding
s p i r
or atiWouldo
thenr e
registration an
a corporation
Irish Parliament have re-
fused Catholic emancipation in 1827 ? Would it have given
!
m?would
above all, as to the tithes and the Church, that that Parliament
0 f
voters i t have
and,
'
had done? Would their legislation have been the same?
That was the test which they should apply to their
measures. He must now mime to that awful and
momentous question, the state of the Irish Church.
He was well aware that this was a subject upon which he should
meet with very little sympathy from almost any part of this

House ; but still he should follow it up. It was admitted in '
the year 1844, by the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment. that in every attempt to legislate for Ireland. the
great difficulty which met the Government at even turn and
every step was the Irish Church establishment ; and whatever
Government proposed a remedy for the grievances of Ireland,
they should be prepared to grapple with this, difficulty. Now
let him ask their Lordships to consider what was the real state
of the case in this respect. They all knew that the property
and revenues of the Protestant Church were originally granted
to the Roman Catholic Church. for the' purpose of instructing
the mass of the community in that form of Christian faith in
which the people would alone accept that institution —(Hear,
hear.) But, by the imperial and conquering power of this
country, those revenues were diverted from their original pur-
pose, and they were now at the disposal of a small minority.
In a debate in this House last year, a Noble Lord opposite
stated, that the property of the Irish Church amounted to the
enormous sum of 600,000/. a year, the whole of which was
applied for the benefit. of 700,000 or 800,000 persons; and
that such a state of things existed in a country, seven-eighths
of the population of which were Roman Catholics ; and the
Noble Duke opposite also stated, in the same debate, that those
seven. eighths of the whole population derived no benefit what-
ever from this endowment. But his Noble Friend (the. Noble
and Learned Lord on the Woolstack) had stated another fact,
namely, that since the Union, the Established Church in Ire-
land had received annually 595,000/. Now, just let the House
consider these facts well. First, they had the fact that the
minority of a large population, consisting of the wealthy
classes, had received a magnificent endowment. The
Presbyterians also, who were Dissenters as well as the
Roman Catholics, had likewise been cared for. From
them the bounty of Government had not been withheld; wile
to the Roman Catholics of Ireland who were by far the largest
in number, and to whose misery and destitution he had al-
ready alluded, the Government gave no assistance whatever.
The Roman Catholics build their own chapels, aniPprovide for
their own clergy, and yet these were the people for whom the
Government had literally done nothing.—(Hear, hear.) Let
him ask, then, was this a state of things that was likely to
prove satisfactory to the people of Ireland? Let them contrast
the scene presented by a Protestant church and a Roman Ca-
tholic chapel in any pariah in the south of Ireland on a Senday.
On the one hand, they saw, perhaps, the Protestant landlord,
with, it might be, one or two of his servants, occupying a cor-
ner in a comfortable building, and listening to the Scinturee
explained by a well-educated and well-paid functionary.
On the other hand, a vast mass of the people—a mass
of that portion of the people whose labour gave
its value to property, that portion of the people from whom
those magnificent grants he had just spoken off had been wrung
by violence and wrong—that class of people might be seen in
vast numbers, crowding the inadequate and mis-rable building
which their scanty means enabled them to provide for the
worship of the Divine Being; and those whom its limits were
not capable of accommndat'on might be seen kneeling without
in hundreds upon the cold wet ground, Sunday after Sunday,
throughout the whole year. Let him ask, then, did this
House expect that a people so treated c uld bear such a state
of things wthout feeling a deep rankling sense of gross injus-
tice ? But this was not the worst part of the case he had
to make out. If it were, and that they were content with
having their property thus wrung from them, and that justice
had been dine them, in other respects in by-gone times, they
might, perhaps, have less cause of complaint. But such was
net the ease ; for in spite of all this amount of wrong and in-
jury, the Protestant Church still was only known and felt in
Ireland as the cause of oppression and injury for the lest cen-
tury and a half.—(Hear, hear.) These were strong:words,
he admitted, but not stronger or as strong as the case required,
because one portion of the administration of the Irish Church
—he meant the tithe system—was the most atrocious and ini-
quitous that ever e,Cated in any country of the would ; and if
it was imposed upon the people of this country, they would de-
nounce it at once as a yoke which no peoele could bear. This
imposition was denounced in the years 1787 and 1788 in the
Irish House of Commons, in the burning eloquence of Grattan,
who only asked for such a mitigation of this system as would
afford the people of Ireland some temporary relief. His re-
quest was refused, and that refusal it was that drew dowr from
him those memorable words, which denounced this tithe system
as the worst law that ever disgraced the statute hook, and
which called forth his indignant denunciation of the whole
system of the Established Church in Ireland. His motion was
opposed by the Irish bishops. and it was their determine resist-
ance alone that defied all his efforts, and which compelled him to
exclaim, with indigna'ion, that to the Bishops of the Esta-
blished Church in Ireland was mainly to be attributed the
defeat of every effort for the improvement of the condition of
the people of that country. He denounced the establishment
as grinding and oppressive in the last degree ; and he con-
cluded his memorable speech in words which few would now
be bold enough to use, but which he (Lord Grey) might
venture to quote, as the words of Mr. Grattan, and which
'were to the effect that it would appear that religion could not
be supported without enormous weal.h, and that Christ could
not be represented upon earth unless Mammon took Him by
the hand.—( Hear, hear.) Well, then, with regard to the
tithe system, it was only at a very recent period that a measure
was passed for the partial remedy of that law, and which was
called the Tithe Composition Act, and which eventually proved
to be no remedy at all. At a peri d still later, another Noble
Lord opposite proposed another remedy, but that was not until
the people had taken it into their own hands. Let him ask,
was this the mode calculated to endear the Protestant Church
to the people of Ireland ? On the contrary, he would say that
the whole system was calculated to impress upon the minds of
the people a deep and lasting sense of hatred and enmity.
to the Establishment; and they never attempted to propose
a remedy, until an agitation had been raised demanding
emancipation in terms that could not be suppressed. But
all measures of justice were invariably refused upon the
ground that the safety of the Church Establishment in Ire-
land would be in danger. Did the House wonder, then, after
this, that a deep-rooted feeling should exi t against the Esta-
blishment? His would ask them to judge of the feelings of
the people of Ireland by their own. Let him ask the Right
Rev. Prelate the Bishop of Londi n, what his feelings might
be, if the revenues of his see were to be given for the instruc-
tion of the few Roman Catholics it contained ? Let him sup-
pose the whole case reversed, anti that England was placed in
the same position as Ireland. Ireland the governing country,
England the governed ; he would ask how long would Eng-
lishmen bear with it? The answer was obvious; the same
argument applied to Irishmen, and they should he more or
less than men if they did not feel their wrongs deeply and
bitterly ranklino at their hearts. The Noble Lord then re-
ferred to a debate in the House of Commons in the year 1807,
in which an Hon. Alember, a friend of his, declared that unless
the Government made some alterations in the system of the
Established Church in Ireland, they might give up all hope of
governing that er untry otherwise than by military force.—
( Hear, hear.) He (Lord Grey) had already supposed the
ease such as that of the revenues of a Protestant see, going to
the support of a splendid C'athelic hierarchy. Such a state of
things would be a description of slavery to which no Fnelish-
man would submit.—( Hear, hear.) He heard tire Nobe
Duke opposite declare in this House last year, that there were
eight millione and a half of people in Ireland professing the
Roman Catholic religion—that there they were, and they could
not help their being Roman Catholics ; but, as they existed,
they should be provided for. He felt that he had imperfectly
expressed his feelings as to the invaluable nature of this mea-
sure, and how imperfectly he had described what seemed a
monstrous injustice. Considering the state of Ireland, that was
undoubtedly a matter of extreme difficulty, and a man must,
indeed, have most overcoming confidence if he could, without
information, as an individual Member of that House, or with.
out the assistance and advice of many others, contemplate the
possibility even of broaching this substantive measure to the
satisfaction of the country. All he would now say was, that
he proposed a perfect equality of treatment of the Catholic and
Protestant. What was done for one class should be done for
another, arid what was done for one religion should be done for
another. There were various modes of arriving at that end.
Some proposed that all endowment should be
be taken away for the present purpose ; and that,'as so n as the
existing interests fall in, the property of the Protestant Church
should be applied to secular education. He should greatly re-
gret to see such a measure adopted. He had never been mails
to understand the advantage of the voluntary system, but he
thought it of very great importance that a large public fund
should be made for the maintenance of ministers of religion,
with permission for them to teach the people in the form in
which they had access to the instruction in the sacred truth of
Christianity. An arrangement of that kind should be coins to,
but he should be deeply grieved that all endowments should be
taken away for the purposes of secular education. The
present system combined all the faults and disadvant ges
of the voluntary system. '1 hey had a voluntary sys-
tem as regarded the people, with all the invidiousness of
a State Church. He, for one, should not be prepared to say
that all the property of the Church should be applied to those
uses of religion. Ile thought that the Catholic Chu, eh should
he establi-bed in Ireland as the Protestant Church was in
England, and the Presbyterian Church in Scotland. There
was in faveur of that principle the opinion of a man whom he
reverenced more than any man now living—he meant the late
Dr. Arnold. He reverenced him more than any man now in
existence, and he believed that this was his view as to what
should be done in this ease. He had no hesitation in saying
that it was deeply to be regretted that such a principle was not
now in existence. It was a great pity that the Protestant
Church had been made the Established Church in Ire-
land—it was as fatal a mistake as was ever commit.
ted. Another proposal, made by a Noble Lord
whom he then saw opposite, was that a toll should be levied on
landed property in Ireland for the payment of the Catholic
clergy. He thought that proposition a perfectly just and reason-
able one. Another Noble Earl, who was formerly one of her
Alajeety's household, asked if it was true that there were 150
parishes in Ireland .n which the rent charge amounted to no
less than 59,0001., and in which there was not a eingle Pro-
testant. Tire answer he received confirmed the accuracy of
Iris supposition or informant. He (Earl Grey) believed that
ou the other side it was not shown that the statement was sub-
stantially erroneous. Ile had no hesitation in saying that this
was a state of things which could not endure. As tire existing
interes's fell in, a portiere of the property of the Protestant
Established Church ought to be diverted to the use a-id payment
of ministers of religion of such a kind that the Cathehee would
consent to receive instruction from them. He could perceive
that an answer to this would be given—the objection would be
that the Catholics would accept no assistance. It would be
stated that the time had gone past ; that a few years ago the
Catholics would have accepted their bounty, but that they
would no longer receive it. As to that belief, he knew that
if the assistance were given in a proper manner, and with due
precaution, it would be accepted. They could no longer obtain
the advantage they might have obtained. They could not
attempt to establish, directly or indirectly, the right of inter-
ference with or control over the Catholics. Formerly the
Catholics would have granted such a power. hut now the op-
portunity was lost, and it would be the height of madness to
attempt it. lie believed that they would not accept of any
a.sira ance as a direct payment to any individual clergyman,
but. they would take assistance if given to a fund to be applied
at their own discretion. We owed this state of thiege to the
unhappy error male by Sir Robert Peel in 1825. He still
believed that the Catholics would take a grant, if it was given
in a sum to he administered by some Catholic authority, to be
applied by him to the building of chapels and houses, or in
such ways as might seem necessary. He had always said that
the Catholics were ready to take assistance if large and gene-
roue grants were made for them, excluding stipends. He had,
however, gone fart her into details than he inten lerl, and it was
not the time for trifling discus-ion. All he would say was
that there should be an equality of favour shown to both re-
ligious.—( Hear, hear. ) They ought not only to endow the
Catholics, but they ought to go further, they ought to give
them the same social position as the Protestant Clergy. They
must allow then their proper rank, and must reverence this
Catholic hierarchy even more than the Catholic Requests Bill,
which was passed last year or the year before. As a body the
Catholic clergy were distinguished for their piety, and their
earnest feeling for the welfare of their flocks, and therefore
they might be allowed some rank. He could go so far as to
say that he wishe:l to see Catholic prelates taking their places
on the bench in that House.—( Hear, hear.) He wished, con-
sidering the state of Ireland, that the House could have the
advice and asesistance of those who knew the Catholic popu-
lation, and could explain to the House their feelings and their
li
wants. He wished that the House had the advice of those who
possessed the means of conciliating the Catholic people, and
he did not think that any danger would result from their intro-
duction ; at least it must be a timid person who could sup..
pose that anything dangerous would be the consequence. lie
believed that the House was riot so easily led assay that four
Catholic prelates could obtain any undue authority. He
believed that the course of policy that they were row recom-
mending to Ireland was opposed to their feelings. He was
prepared to find that his motion met with little support in that
' House. He was prepared to see the address he was about to

more thrown out by a great and overwhelming majority, but I
many Nears would il(r elawe before its essential features would
become the law of the country. As long as he had been in
public life, he had ample reasons for saying that he had seen
that any case resting on a solid foundation of truth and justice
was sure in the snd to get on ; justice and reason were sure to
prevail. He remembered nothing more discouraging in its
appearance than the Bill for Catholic Emancipation, in the
year 1827, but that measure had become the law of the land.
At the same time free trade seemed altogether impossible, and
those who advocated the opinion which he wished to apply to
the commercial regulations of the conntry—e principle which
cabinet philosol hers had advocated—were regarded as persons
whom it was not worth while to answer; and when they
made the slightest allusion to any alteration in coin, they could
not muster more vote: than from a dozen to twenty.
Nineteen years had since elapsed ; he had lived to see
the question, year by year advancing, till now it was at
its final time; and if it was still doomed to be refused—
(Hear, hear)—it was only for a short period, for they were in
sight of the goal. In the same way it was with every measure
having regard to any alteration in the policy we pursue towards
Ireland with regard to her church, but it might now he seen
that the time was not very far distant when that church would
he recognised. That time was advancing rapidly; he could see
it in the tone of the debates last year ; and in the speech of the
Noble Duke opposite, in his arguments in favour of the May-
Rooth grant, he could sae the evidence of the progress of
this measure. In the minds of those who advocated justice to
Ireland in this matter no change of opinions had occurred,
but he heard of frequent and substantial changes on the other
, aide. He saw men, who had come to Parliament with opinions
,of a different nature, were inclined to adopt this now ; but
above all, he knew its progress in private conversation. They
all knew, and could not fail to hear in private conversation,
that the state of the Irish Church was unanimously admitted
to be such as ought never to exist in a civilised country. It
was deeply to be regretted that a difference was ever made, and
an adjustment of that difference was earnestly to he desired.
It was true that he heard such language followed up by the
ation that reform, however desirable, was rendered im-
possible by the prejudices of England and Scotland ;
which were an strong that they would not be able to
carry a measure of that description. That was a question very
important to consider, but language of this sort ought not to
be adopted, nor should such principles be acted upon. A man
of true honesty of thinking would say, that it was right that
this question should be proposed, as it was only by being pro-
posed and discussed that they could hope for success. If lan-
guage of that sort were to be used, it would be unjust to address
it to his countrymen. They had, it was true, strong prejudices,
and he was very well aware very deep •rooted prejudices, but
at the same time he knew that the language of reason and
justice was never addressed to them in vain, and if they went
wrong in this matter it would be the fault of those who had
to guide them right. If rho-e who took tart in public affairs,
and to whose advice and guidance the nation was accustomed
to look, and who, standing in this high and responsible sit ua-
tion, from want of discernment of what was required, or from
want of courage to state their opinions from fear of incurring a
personal opposition by stemming the current of public opinion
—if such now, from such opinions, condescend to give up the
position and privileges of Englishmen, it might be long before
they were disturbed, but it might be too late for the safety of
the Empire to do justice to Ireland, when they thoueet they
saw the necessity. He would fain hope for better things; that
in this debate they would take a lesson from the years
1829 and 1846 that they would not be again guilty of this
disingenuousness, and of that want of foresight of corning
events, which the result has shown might justly be imputed
to them for their conduct in 1829, and they would not, for the
third time, place themselves in that most painful situation in
which they were compelled to sacrifice for a great emergency
the dearest interests of the country, or incur the just reproach
of having deceived their followers, and of having been the per-
sons to carry the measure whic:i formerly they had ever been
first in resisting. He hoped he should hot again see any such
state of things; he trusted that now it was time to consider the
state of Leland that they would acknowledge the necessity of
applying remedies more effectual to quell the evils which were
now inflicted upon them. The address which he would lay
before them did not call upon them to express any opinion ; he
felt it would not be right, as he did not stand in the position of
sufficient authority to give him any right to ask them
to come to so momentous a decision. At the same
them, he felt himself bound fully and fairly to express to them
his long and unaltered opinions—opinions which he had en.
tertained from the first moment he had entered that House.
Although his address did not call for an expression of opinion
on any particular question, if there were other remedies,
better calculated to meet the evils laid before the House, let
them be proposed and discussed; he was confident he would be
most happy to hear them, and no effort of his should be want
ing to give the most patient, full, and fair consider Aion. They
were called upon to express, by an address to her Majevy,
their conviction that Ireland could not be left in the state in
which it was. Something must be done, and if the remedies he
proposed were wrong, others might be adopted better calcu-
lated to secure the interest of the empire. He trusted
that the great crisis was at an end—he believed that
there was one way, and, in his opinion, only
one way of appeasing and allaying the discontent ef the Irish
nation, and of gradually restoring order anti tranquillity to
that disorganised portion of the empire. There was one way,
and only one way, and that was not to grant repeal, and not
to follow the advice of the Right Rev. Prelate. The plan was
simple—it was to legislate for the Irish as an Irish Parlia-
ment; to act fairly and consistently, and they could do no
wrong. If they did not, they would see nothing but the
miserable continuance of misery and destitution. Whenever the
accidental failure of a crop occurred, it would cause famine
and pestilence, only to be awarded by the interference of Par-
liament. They would see outrages but imperfectly prevented
by severe and troublesome methods, until at last would come
some frightful catastrophe, fatal alike to the dominion of the
English and the safety of the empire. This was what they had to
do, and he (Lord Grey) asked their Lordships to pledge
themselves to do what in them lay to avert this fearful result,
by agreeing to the address to her Majesty, which he would now
take leave to read to them. (The Noble Earl concluded by
proposing the address to her Majesty, which is contained in an-
other column. )_

On the question being put,
The Duke of WELLINGTON rose. It was not his inten-
tion to follow the Noble Earl through his very able speech.
Much of it was fouraded on fact, un fortunately, and that part
of it therefore he was unable to answer. But really hit did not
think that in that other part to which the N We Earl referred.
--lie meant the act of her Majesty's Government in respect to
the nomination of a Conninissiou to hiquire into the relati,ns
hstween landlords and teearos, and the socaeure which had been
adopted in consequence of the nomination of that Committee.
He thought diet the Noble Earl would admit that it was not.
quite fair to say that his Right Hon. Friend, when he nemi-
, nated this Commission, admitted either the justice or propriety
of the motion un ler consideration at the tie e whisili related to
the fixity of tenure. But he would now confine himself to the
address moved for by this Noble Earl. Similar addressee had
been presented frequently both in the last and at. the commence-
ment of this session. Parliament always expressed itself ready
to co-operate with her Majesty's Government in every tnea,ure
which could tend to the pr. sperity of Ireland. It was impossible
he could concur in the address moved by the Noble
Earl ; and, considering the speech he made, more particularly
the latter part of it, namely, his admission that his object was
to found on that address a system of measures which In u,t end
in the extinction of the Church of England in ;reit-rid, the
Noble Earl had spoken throughout as if this were an open
question—as if Parliament had done nothing on the subject
—as if it were a question on which measures could be adopteel
without the smallest difficulty, or without any breach of furmer
arrangements or compacts. If ever there was a point which
was made the object of a special compact, it was the existence
of the Church of England in Ireland. That was a distinctive
object which two Parliaments had agreed in carrying out as
-perpetual. This was one of the articles which they were dis-
tinctly pledged to maintain. The Noble Earl said that he did
not desire them to repeal the union, but that which he de-
sired, he stated, was that they should adopt the address which
was to lead to the putting down the Church of England in
Ireland, which was to deprive the Church of England in
Ireland of its present possessions, and which must end in the
repeal of any treaty of union, which the Noble Earl
stated it was not his desire should be conceded.
The Irish Parliament was, as a body, c pable of legislating on
that subject. It was because they had tortnally agreed to the
union that Parliament ventured on the consideration of the
question, under the auspiees of the Government of Geoige 111.,
and than it was agreed and stipulated that the sth article, by
which the Church of England in Ireland was to be uniesil for
ever to the Church in this country, was to be for the future
maintained. They could not place the Irish nation and the
Irish Parliament in the same situation in which they both stood
at the time that compact was made, and he said, therefore,
that they could not depart from that compact without a breach
of the engagement then entered into. He maintained that
they had no power upon the subject, and therefore, he recorn-
'needed their Lordships not to agree to the address proposed to
them by the Noble Earl. Undoubtedly, measures could be
adopted calculated to benefit Ireland, and that and the other
Huuse of Parliament ought in every case to adopt measures,
and to legislate for the good of Ireland, whenever the in-
terests of that country came under their consideration. He
would say to their Lordships that in his opinion Parliament
had done its duty on that subject. He believed that the Noble
Lord did not deny that. He believed that there never was a
country which hail so advanced in improvements of all descrip-
tions as Ireland since the psriod of the union.---( Hear, hear.)
He would not go into details on this subject, because perhaps
Noble Lords would speak in the course of the evening more
capable than he was of doing so, but it was quite remarkable
' in every way, in trade, in commerce, in shipping, in revenue, in
the customs, in the excise, arid indeed in every thing, the in-
crease had been enormous, but the Noble Lord said in the
earlier part of his speech that foreigners, who went to Ireland,
expatiated on the miseries which they witnessed there. It was
true there was misery and great poverty there, as there was in
other countries, but yet in Ireland there was a vast capital,
there were great riches; Ireland was at that moment setting an
example to the world, an example which could be
imitated in few countries of Europe, she was laying out mil-
lions at this moment in the construction of railways, at the pri-
vate expense of individuals. There were, it was true, railways
in the course of coestruction in the other countries of Europe,
but how were they constructed? At the expense of Govern-
, merit ; not one of them was constructed at the expense of
pri-
vate individuals. It was in this country that they were con-
structed at the expense of private individuals—only in this
country and in Ireland—in every other country in the world
they were constructed at the expense of the public treasure.
Now, he did not much care whether this capital was the pro-
perty of Irishmen, or whether it had been borrowed in this
country. If it were sent. there, it was sent on the credit of
Irishmen ; it' it were the pr perry ofilrishmen, (and he hoped
it was) why it showed the vast improvement in that country, to
which at least the Noble Lord ought to have given Parliament
and those who governed that country some credit for. If it were
the property of England and lent to Ireland, it showed there
was some credit in Ireland, and that men hail little
more confidence in the restoration, and continued existence of
peace
wt hoaunl d t
(hi
oe Noble
eeverything
hLd had
i ro,gr i
nits .p
wHee w r
to
oas
bring e t h
forward
a rd Govern-
ment
mea-
sures which would be calculated to give satisfaction to that
country, ar d to irßur,• public tranquillity. Now, he thought
that there was evidence to show hat the Noble Earl was a
little mistaken as to the very great dislike which Irishmen en-
tertained towards the Established Church of England inilre-
land. He thought it was a very remarkable circumstance,
but it was a fact that their Lordships would Lind, on searching
the records of Parliament. that after the Irish Parliament and
the English Parliament had been endeavouring to discover the
mode of enabling the Irish Roman Catholics to testify their
allegiance to their Sovereign, by striking out from the oaths the
oath of supremacy, and all reference to the peculiar
Roman Catholic doctrines of transubstantiation, and
everything else, those parts of the declaration or
oath which had reference to the property of the
Church, or to the existencb,,f the Cisurcte were inserted in the
oaths on the petitions of the Roman Catholics themselves.
Those petitions commenced in 1805 ; they went on from that
time to 18:26; and on the passing of the Roman Catholic Relief
Bill, the Roman Catholics themselves repeatedly denied that
they had any wish to deprive the Church of England of her
property, or injure in any manner the privileges of possessions
she held in Ireland. All they desired was the removal of civil
disabilities, and that they might stand in the same manner as
others of her Majesty's subjects under the laws and government
of the country. He said, therefore, that he thought it not very
probable that there should be a total change of sentiment on I
that subject. It was very true that some might look after pro-
petty of all description, but if one thing was more ce, tain than
another, it was this, that the insertion of those words in the
oath or declaration which was now the law of the land, had been
made by the very persons who were claiming advantages under

the law. These words were suggested and desired to be in-
serted by the Roman Catholics themselves. Now he feel steed
that. the institutioa of the Church of England in Ireland, and
its union with the Ctiurch in this country, was a matter of
compact which could not be departed from. But he would
go further, and say that there was no one pro-
position in the Constitution of the country, for
the maintenance of which more solemn engagements
had been entered into, than for the preservation
of the Church of England. The Roman Catholics themselves
declared in the year 1828. on the repeal of the Test Act. and
again in 1829, on the passing of the Roman Catholic Relief
Bill—indeed, on every occasion on which a concession of pri-
vileges were made with regard to that point, the declaration
universally was—that the persons claiming the privileges of
Roman Catholic subjects under these Acts of Parliament,
universally made declaration of reservation to the property of
the Church of England in that country. So in Parliament
the principle had been uniformly acted upon to preserve the
Church of England in Ireland. But he would go a little
further. He believed that the Noble Lord was further
mistaken in some ot the causes of discontent in Ireland.
He (the Duke of Wellington) saw, some years ago, a
petition from some Peers in Ireland, complaining of
the discontent prevaitieg in that country. Among the
subjects of discontent, there was certainly the existence of
the Church Establishment mentioned; but there were other
causes of discontent also. They mentioned that the relative
proportion of Members of Parliament fie m Ireland and from
England, referring to the population of Ireland and
England, was not what it ought to be. Did the Noble Lord
mean to concede that ? They mentioned also that in the Cor-
poration Act, the qualification had been raised higher than it
had been in the English Corporation Reform Act, when the
property in Ireland was taken into consideration; they men-
tioned also that the number of Irish Judges—of Roman Ca-
tholic Judges—were not sufficiently numerous on the Irish
Bench. He (the Duke of Wellington) had always understood
that the Judges were selected according to the best judgment of
the countey, from those most capable of eerlorming the duties of
those judicial offices. He had been told it had been so in Eng-
land, and he did not see why it should not be in Ireland also.
He had never been told that the Irish Judges were deficient in
those qualities which fitted them for their office. But these were
not things to be incorporated in an Act of Parliament, yet they
' were the grievances which were stated to exist by the Noble
Lords who had signed the petition, which he (the Duke of
Wellington) had seen in print, from Charleanont House.
He thought he could show, from what had passed hereto-
fore, that the most ample concessions would not put an end to
the cause of all the =select. He meant agitation—a perpetual
agitatien for the repeal of the union ; and whether it were the
restriction of titees, or church-rates; or any other measure of
the moment—no matter what the concession might be—
he thought he could show simply, from what had passed
heretofore, that it had been followed by additional agitation
and additional discontent.—(Hear. hear.) A great measure of
concession was mane in the year 1829, and what happened
after it ? The law passed in the month of April, 1821, and in
the month of June in the same year an agineor commenced
I his work in the county of Clare, calling on the people, now
that they had got religious liberty, to demand civil liberty and
a repeal of the union. From Clare he went to Dublin, and in
the month of December, 1829, he commenced there a system
of agitation, which he continued throughout the year 1830, up
to January in the following year, at different times, under dif-
ferent circumstances, and in different parts of
the country, until a Noble Friend, whom he did
not see in his place, issued a publiceticn, by which he put an
end to this description of agitation. Now, their Lordships
would observe thatthis fresh system of agitation upon the sub-
ject of tithes, a repeal of the church rates, and a repeal of the
union, commenced on the very morrow of the passing of the
Catholic Relief Bill. Well, then, soon after this pubeieation
had been Issued, an agitation was recommenced for the sus-
pension of tithes and church rates, and then the Government
were under the necessity of passing the Coercion Bill, which
they were induced to do by a dispatch of Lord Wellesley, who
stated that he had invariably found a connexion between the
agitation for the repeal and extinction of tithes, and popular
discontent, and agrarian outrage. Now, your Lordships will
observe, from these facts, (arid he hoped the Noble Earl
would see it too), that the moment concessions of
any sort were made, agitation was recommenced
for some other object; perhaps for obtaining the
property of parties who gave occasion far discontent, or for
exciting the population to commit agrarian outrage. After
the Coercion Bill of 1833, there was another passed in 1834,
which lasted for a twelvemonth, and it was succeeded by a third,
which was passed in 1835, for a period of five %ears, but which
terminated in the year 1840. There was, he believed, some
little cessation of agitation in the year s 1835 and 1836. owing,
as it was supposed, to some political arrangement which was
made in London ; but that apparent tranquillity did not last
long. The agitation was continued under different forms, in
1837, 1838, 1839. and 1840 ; and in the latter year the monster
meetings commenced, and 01. y were continued to the end of
the year 1840. through 1841 and 1842. and part of 1843. In
the month of November of that year they were put down by a
proclamation issued by the Lord Lieutenant. During
this time there was no want of measures of conies
sion, for the tithe arrangement was brought to a
complete conclusion—the Relief Bill was passed, and the Cor-
poration Bill was passed ; and, in fact, ev ry measure was
adopted which could tend to the prosperity of Ireland ; and
Parliament acted upon all these occasions, as if it were an
Irish Parliament, acting solely for the benefit of the Irish
people. But still the agitation continued, anti monster meet-
ings were assembled, which could only be got rid of by mili-
tary law. Now, he entreated them to observe minutely this
history of concession. He did net mean to say that it was
right to concede on all these points, but he did say, that they
ought not to concede on this occasion, when they were bound
by compact to avoid doing sit—bound by compact to preserve
and maintain the united Church of England and Ireland—
(Hear.) He dirt not put this question of the preservation of
the Church of England upon such high grounds as those
which he could have wished to have put it, but he might remind
their Lordships that under this establishment they enjoyed the
advantage of seeing the people entertain as strong a sense
of religion, and as great a respect for religion, as existed in
any country in the world. They had, besides, the advan-
tage of enjoying universal toleration; every system of reli-
gion was tolerated in this country; and, above all, they had
the advantage of enjoying religious peace.—(Cheers.) These
were three of the great Christian adv intages which they de-
rived front the existence of the Established Church, and he
entreated their Lordships not to run the tisk of losing any
of them by adopting any reeasure of that description —( Hear,
hear. ) It was tru ethat, although they had religious peace,
there were 1,011 goat political eiffiereeces of opinion upon the
subject of the eifferent religious sects which existed in the
c..untry, but this was the consequi-nce of their constitutional
existence. For the people of this country—every individual of
this country, had the privilege of c• nsidering and discussing
the question of political power.—( Hear, hear. ) Consequently
their minister or others might lead them, and each sect was
thsrelore anxious to increase its political power, and the
result was that great rivalry existed amor.gs; the
sects. (Hear, hear.) But would concessions of any
kind put an end to this rivalry for political power?
No, it would riot ; concede what they might the rivalry
'would still remsin ; while, if they conceded what the
Catholic Church demander!, he was afraid they would no longer
have religious peace, or facilities for settling such matters as
the marriage question in that House, as they had done some
time ago. The same question could not be settled elsewhere.
It could not be settled in Uerniany, France, or Spain, and he
was sure that it they sae ctioned a Catholic establishment there
would be an end to that religious peace and toleration without
which this country could not exist for a single hour.—( Hear. )
Under these circumstances, considering that they were bound
by compact to tnaietairs the Uoited Church of England aid
Ireland, and considering the great advantages they derived
from the existence of the Church of England, advantages which
were enjoyed alike by Catholics as well as Protestants, be
called upon their Lordships (by rejecting the motion) not to
give rise to the supposition that they were inclined to enter-
tain any such measures as those proposed by the Noble Earl.
Earl FORTESCUE coricui red cordially in the views of his
Noble Friend, and he should certainly support the motion
before their Lordships. He gave a reluctant consent to the
third reading of the Protection to Life Bill, but not from any
confidence in the lsw or its administrators, but because, after
the statement of the Noble Earl opposite, of the amount of
crime committed in Ireland he thought some strong measure
was necessary for its suppression. He considered that,
under the existing circumstances of Ireland, it was their duty,
not merely to grant pecuniary assistance fur the relief of the
present distress, and pass severe laws for the detection and
punishment of crimes, but measures ought, without tuture de-
lay, to be adopted, for the purpose of effeetiug a real and per-
manent improvement in the condition of that part of her
Majesty's dominions. These were the only terms in the Ed •
dress which pledged the House in any way, and he thought it
was too bad to reject it, because the Noble Earl who proposed
it, had expressed his opinion that a great reform was necessary in
the establishment of the church of Ireland. In that sentiment he
most cordially concurred, and he agreed also with the Noble
Earl that they would never have perfect contentment amongst
the people of Ireland until the Catholic Church was placed
upon the same footing as the Protestant.—(Cheers.) He
had always considered a general distribution of land among all
classes in the country as one of, its safeguards, arid one of its
bulwarks, and without pretending for a moment to defend the
Anti-Corn-law League, he must say that great obligation was
due to them for directing parties how to invest the products of
their industry in small freeholds. Of this general distribution
of land great want was felt in Ireland. He had beers told,
when he wished to introduce a measure to extend the fran-
chise to 40s. freeholders, that there was no such class. He
would ask, why was there not? There were numbers of per-
sons in that country who expended as much in purchasing
tenant-right as would enable them to obtain *mall freeholds.
He did not, therefore, think that it arose from the want of
money to enable them to become freeholders. He thought
that the Government ought to introduce some measure to faci-
litate the purchase of these small freeholds, and at the same
time to keep some of that money in the pockets of those which,
under the existing law, now weest to the attorneys.
Lord BROUGHAM—There is a Bill of that nature before
the House

Earl FORTESCUE would wish to see the measure ex-
tended to Ireland. He wished to see Ireland placed upon the
same footing as England. The Noble Duke (the Duke of
Wellington) had said, in the course of his speech delivered that
night, that all the concessions; made to Ireland only produced
fresh agitation. He (Earl Forte cue) would beg to remind
their Lordships that all concessions made to Ireland had been
the fruit of previous agitation, and it was not to be wondered if,
after the lesson which had been set them, they would fail of
pursuing the same line of conduct while any chance of success
remained to them. He contended that :f they had more con•
fidence in the administralion of the c untry—if they were put
upon an equal footing both in Church and Stare, they would
then effectually put down agitation among those who, however
excitable, were certainly not the less rut itled to the considera-
tion of their Lordships. Having tried such measures to their
fullest extent, and having found them not to answer, then and
then only ought the Government to adopt coercive measures.
Lord f3ROUG HAM would not have addressed their Lord-
ships, had it not been that the Noble Earl, who tnoved the
address, had in the course of his apeech made refer-
ence -to one or two matters in which he felt, himself if
not jueicially, at least protessionally bound to make one or
two obiervarions, alike injustice to himself, to the Government,
and to the country at large. First of all, be would say that,
with reference to that part of the Noble Earl's speech, whether
with reference to the afflicting statements of the amoun• of dis-
tress, or of the evil of the Administrations which have con-
ducted the affairs of behind; or whether, with regard to the
misery which prevailed among a large portion of the people, or
of the crimes and frightful outrages upon life as well as pro-
perty, whether resulting from misery or other causes, which
had, as is were, scared the soul of society, and which had
forced their Lordships reluctantly to have recourse to mea-
sures of a severe, coercive nature, which broached upon the
natural rights of our fellow-countrymen—all these statements
were but too true. They could he matters of no controversy.
No person would dispute them. They were reiterated over and
over again in the course of the discussion on the late coercive
measures. But these things, the existence of which we all
deplore, had (as his Noble Friend who had last spoken had
reminded their Lordships) their root far deeper than in any
misgovernment of the pr. sent or any othday. Its root lay,
deeper then in any political agitation. of the present day,
although he thought they were not in some sort uncon-
neeten with that agitation, as he should presently show,
they had had their roots deeper plunged and wider spread in
the social condition of the Irish people. With reference to
their engagements in landed property, and their great predilec-
tion for agricultural pursuits in their own style. he did not
think they could interfere. They could not interfere with the
rights of property, the most sacred of all rights—those &Acted